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Offline Crispus

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Evidence for a Global Flood
« on: March 09, 2009, 02:48:57 PM »
This post is mostly for bookmarking purposes (I can't miss this gold mine.)  Most of the other forum members here have already done a nice job of bringing forth some evidence to show how the biblical flood is just plain impossible.

Hello. I've done a lot of research on this topic and have found there's a lot of evidence that a global flood happened. This was a response on the thread called Creation Vs. Evolution - the First Conflict; Noah's Flood but the mod must have given it's own thread.

Fossils on Mountains

During the fated George Mallory expedition geologist Noel Odell thought he found fossils about two thousand feet below the summit of Mt. Everest. Odell later stated that supposed fossils found in 1924 at 25,500 feet on Mt. Everest were not fossils but cone in cone structures. (1) But, fossil fragments in the fine-grained limestone from the summit of Mount Everest were brought back by Swiss explorers in 1956 and American explorers in 1963. Mt Everest and its neighboring peaks are capped by sedimentary limestone which is composed largely of calcite, the primary source of which is commonly marine organisms. Fossils that have been found in limestone beds around the world include brachiopods, ammonites, belemnites, foraminifera and radiolarians with the most common being brachiopods. Goniatite fossils, an extinct ammonite, have been found in limestone layers in Western Ireland indicating rapid burial and formation. 

On the University of Oxford, Department of Earth Sciences website is an example of a fine-grained limestone from the summit of Gyachung Kang containing fossil fragments (see photo on the left). Gyachung Kang is about twenty miles from Everest and its summit is 26,089 feet above sea level. In an abstract of a paper about Geology of the summit limestone of Mount Everest it says “Newly discovered peloidal limestone from the summit of Mount Qomolangma (Mount Everest) contains skeletal fragments of trilobites, ostracods and crinoids" (2). Crinoids are marine animals that live in both shallow water and water as deep as 6000 meters and ostracods are small crustaceans. Everest was under water at one time and the only way fossils exist on Mt. Everest is lack of oxygen which would mean rapid mountain building and high altitude. Fossilization is a result of rapid burial and removal from oxygen. Trilobites are believed by evolutionary scientists to have been extinct since the late Permian period, some 250 million years ago. Some sources say they went extinct in the late Devonian about 364 mya. At that altitude fossils may have not lasted for millions of years even with lower levels of oxygen.

In an article about Mt. Everest on earthobservatory.nasa.gov it says this:

"When this land mass came close to Asia, it started to push up the land ahead of it, forming a large shallow ocean with rich ocean life. The bones and shells of the plants and animals in this shallow ocean formed limestone and left fossils. As the land mass continued to plow north and collide with Asia, the ocean was slowly raised up and drained, eventually being lifted up to form the Himalayan Mountains." (3)

This explanation is inadequate because taphonomy requires rapid burial and removal from oxygen. Everest was not uplifted slowly over millions of years but quickly. The question is not whether the Himalayas are still rising but what effect did the rain, sleet, hail and strong winds at 29,000 feet, and lower levels, have on limestone and fossils on Mt. Everest over 45 million years? Even with reduced oxygen it still would inhibit fossilization. If Everest was raised slowly and its summit was at a few thousand feet for hundreds of thousands, or millions, of years the sea creatures wouldn't have been fossilized and there are ammonite fossils at 12,000 feet above sea level. See Visual Evidences of Himalayan Formation at library.thinkquest.org. If these were fossilized several million years ago how did they survive landslides and glacier melting, which may have triggered a powerful flood or floods?

A four year study of the interaction of climate, erosion and tectonic deformation of the north and south sides of the Himalayas was completed in 2003. Scientists from seven universities worked with the Nepalese Department of Hydrology and Meteorology on the project. One of the team members was Ann Blythe who, at that time, was an assistant reasearch professor at the University of Southern California. She used fission-track dating and estimated the amount of time rocks cooled from deep in the earth crusts to surface temperatures was about 500,000 years. From her results it was also estimated that between two to four miles of rock are eroded from the Himalaya every million years (4). It is generally accepted that the Indian plate collided with the Eurasian plate about 45 to 55 million years ago (5). Even if the Himalayas didn't emerge from tethys ocean until millions of years later, many miles of rock would have been eroded from Everest and other mountains in the Himalayas because they are being uplifted and eroded at the same time. If the trilobites in limestone on the summit of Mt. Everest were buried rapidly about 250 mya and survived the process of orogeny they still would have had to be buried under miles of rock which has been eroded. On the page about orgoney, or mountain building, on wikipedia it says erosion removes much of the mountains exposing the mountain roots which were several kilometers deep in the earth's crust (6). Yet, in our time, trilobites and limestone happen to be on Mt. Everest's summit, about 29,000 feet above sea level.

"The biases inherent in the fossil record stem from the fact that fossilization of organic material is the exception, not the rule, and very specific and relatively rare conditions must be met for an organism to become fossilized. Fossilization favors organisms with hard parts, for example, an exterior shell (exoskeleton) or internal skeleton (endoskeleton). Fossilization also favors organisms living in certain environments. Two particular environmental conditions favor fossilization: rapid burial and anoxia (lack of oxygen). Rapid burial protects organic remains from predators or scavengers and physical reworking by tides and waves. Oxygen supports bacteria and decomposition of organic material. Burial in an oxygen-free (reducing) environment insulates organic material from decay and thus favors fossilization."
(Geology, Vol. 1, edited by James A. Woodhead, Salem Press, 1999, p. 259)

See also Taphonomy: Death Is a Sure Bet, Fossilization Is a Long Shot by S. Aaron Spriggs of Colorado State University.

In the counter-creationism handbook Mark Isaak said "Few if any of the "anomalous" fossils are truly anomalous. It is fairly common for fossils to erode out of an old formation and be redeposited in a younger formation. Pollen, spores, and other very small fossils can also be blown or washed into tiny cracks to appear in older formations" (7). In the Handy Geology Answer Book it says “Unfortunately, there are many gaps in the fossil records, with whole eras or evolutionary stages missing. The loss of these precious fossils is most often the result of erosion. The action of water, ice, wind, and other erosional agents wears away layers of rock and the embedded fossils" (8).

So on the one hand wind and water are the reason that very small fossils such as pollen and spores are redeposited to younger strata. But when much larger fossils are removed from their strata they are destroyed by the very elements that moved small fossils which somehow survived!! If erosion can have that effect on exposed fossils why hasn't the limestone on Mt. Everest been worn away by rain, sleet, hail, and strong winds that exist at 29,000 feet and at lower altitudes as it rose over 45 million years? It is believed that mountains begin to form when pelagic sedimentation, a mix of organic and inorganic sediments, was deposited on the ocean floor. Over time the sediments build up and as plates collide the sediments are thrust upward and eventually form mountains. The limestone on mountains was originally pelagic sedimentation and most of the calcite in limestone is from marine organisms. Because of the nature of fossilization, fossils in the limestone on Mt. Everest were preserved quickly and the limestone must have been formed rapidly, perhaps through an earthquake under the ocean floor and redeposition.  These fossils would have had to been preserved for 250 million years or longer in spite of mountain building and erosion.

You covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains. But at your rebuke the waters fled, at the sound of your thunder they took to flight; they flowed over the mountains, they went down into the valleys, to the place you assigned for them. You set a boundary they cannot cross; never again will they cover the earth. (Psalm 104:6-9, NIV).

Genesis 7:19 says all the high mountains, or hills, under the entire heavens were covered. There are fossils and marine sediments on mountain ranges all over the world including the Himalayas, Alps, Andes, Ural, Altai, Appalachian and Rocky Mountains (9).

1. The highest fossils in the world by N.E. Odell, Geological Magazine, January 1967; v. 104; no. 1; pp. 73-74

2. Geology of the summit limestone of Mount Qomolangma (Everest) and cooling history of the Yellow Band under the Qomolangma detachment - The Island Arc, Volume 14, Issue 4, December 21, 2005, pp. 297-310

3. http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=3499

4. Erosion and precipitation in the Himalayas - http://www.ia.ucsb.edu/pa/display.aspx?pkey=1075

5. Correlation of Himalayan exhumation rates and Asian monsoon intensity
www.abdn.ac.uk/~wpg008/Cliftetal2008NatureGeosci.pdf

6. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orogeny

7. The counter-creationism handbook by Mark Isaak, p. 133

8. The Handy Geology Answer Book by Patricia Barnes-Svarney and Thomas E. Svarney, p. 145

9. http://koti.phnet.fi/elohim/theflood2.html
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 03:05:39 PM by Crispus »

Offline Crispus

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Evidence for a Global Flood
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2009, 02:50:18 PM »

Coal

Scientists tell us coal was formed during the carboniferous period which they say was from approximately 350 to 290 million years ago. One problem is that coal is full of carbon 14 which has a half life of 5,730 years. (See Measurable 14 C in Fossilized Organic Materials) Under a microscope bituminous coal reveals traces of roots, stems, and leaves. Fossils of marine creatures such as brachiopods, fish, and moluscs, have been found in coal. Fossilized specimens of the small marine Spirorbis, a tubeworm, are often found attached to plants in coal measures. Harold G. Coffin of the Geoscience Research Institute observed spirorbis fastened to the outside edges of mussels in the coal measures of Nova Scotia (1). The presence of Spirorobis tubeworms in coal is strong evidence that much of the coal is allochthonous, originally transported from a different location, and is a problem for scientists who hold to the theory that coal was formed in peat bogs. In his book Coffin also points out that marine organisms often appear in shale or sandstone directly above or below coal. Calamites, a tree like horsetail, are also found in coal, and like cordaites they preferred well drained soils and not swampy areas.

Coal balls are very well preserved masses of vegetation found in coal seams which were permineralized in sitsu by calcium and magnesium carbonates preserving plant and animal fossils (2). Coal balls are so well preserved that often minute details of plants including cellular structure can be observed with a microscope. In the early twentieth century Marie Stopes and David Watson analyzed samples from coal balls and found some of them consisted entirely of dolomite and some consisted of dolomite with some siderite (3). In "Low-Temperature Formation of Dolomite and Magnesite" J.C. Deelman gives an excellent treatment of different studies done on coal balls and how they relate to dolomite. He states "In the view of Stopes & Watson(1909) the formation of this dolomite had to be related to the influence of sea water during the deposition of the plants, that later changed into coal" (4). Deelman also says "The fossils found in the sediments above coal layers containing dolomite coal balls, were invariably of marine origin" (5). The facts that fossilization almost always requires rapid burial and removal from oxygen, sea water was necessary for the formation of dolomite coal balls and marine fossils are found above coal layers indicates the rapid deposition of plants and transportation of sea creatures took place before coal was formed.

Coal balls have been found in more than 65 coal seams in over 200 locations and are most abundant in North American and Europe. They are also found in China; those being dominated by cordaites, an extinct gymnosperm. Fossilized coprolites similar to those from mites, collembola and millipedes have been found in coal balls indicating rapid burial and removal from oxygen. A study done on coal balls in Ohio found that coal balls in Lower Freeport Coal in are composed of 89.9 % calcite and nodules from roof shale in Middle Kittanning Coal were formed by marine muds can are composed of 84.5% calcite. The roof shale contained fossils of sea creatures such as gastropods, cephalopods, ostracodes, a tiny crustacean, and brachiopods, or lamp shells, which once dominated sea floors (6). In that study it also says roof shale nodules in marine muds probably formed rapidly (7).

Perhaps the most exhaustive paper about coal balls on the internet is 'The Formation and Significance of Carboniferous Coal Balls' by Andrew Scott and Gillian Rex (8). In that paper they state "One of the main problems in the discussion of coal ball formation is the source for the vast amount of carbonate permineralizing fluid that led to the formation of the coal" (page 4). Citing a 1962 study done in Berryville, Illinois they said Sergius Mamay & Ellison Yochelson first reported on marine animal remains within coal balls from North America and proposed that "mixed coal balls had been formed by marine mud rollers containing animal remains flung by wave action into the swamp" (9). In his book Evidence of Evolution, Nicholas Hotton said it doesn't take much erosion to destroy caves, bogs and tar pits and he believes most fossils found in those locations are from the remains of animals which are recently extinct or  may still exist in nearby areas (10). If he is correct then, along with what else is known about coal, there is no way that coal was formed in peat bogs over millions of years.

In the Handy Geology Answer Book carbonization is explained this way:

"Carbonization leaves traces in the rock when the temperatures and pressures of burial cause the liquid or gaseous (volatile) components to be squeezed out, leaving a film of carbon." (11)

In coal measures carbonized impressions of ancient plants or their parts are common. The plants were buried quickly and put under extreme pressure which is consistent with the creationist explanation of the formation of coal and not with the evolutionist’s explanation. There are also carbon impressions in shale and clay indicating rapid burial and pressure. Marine roof shales sometimes occur above coal seams and contain goniatites, an extinct ammonite and layers of limestones are interbedded between coal seams in the U.S.A. and in the Black Marmot Conglomerate in Western Mongolia. In the Wigan coal seam in Lancashire, England there are many well preserved fossils mostly of arthropods including arachnids, arthropleurids, crustaceans, eurypterids, euthycarcinoids, millipedes and xiphosurans. In a 1999 issue of Geological Magazine there was a paper about fossils in the roof shales of the Wigan coal seam and in an abstract of that paper it says this:

"Upright Sigillaria trees, massive bedded units and a general lack of trace fossils in the roof shales of the Wigan Four Foot coal seam suggest that deposition of the beds containing these concretions was relatively rapid. Discovery of similar faunas at the equivalent stratigraphic level some distance away point to regional rather than localized controls on exceptional preservation." (12)

There are more problems with the theory that coal beds were originally peat bogs. Methane is trapped in coal beds and if these were originally peat bogs, or marshes, why wasn't the methane released over time? Over a period of sixty million years there would have been droughts, wild fires, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes and floods. What effect would it have had on the coal beds especially if methane was released during a wild fire? In western Siberia there is a peat bog under permafrost which may be exposed because of increasing temperature in the region. If it's exposed, scientists believe that the methane will be released into the atmosphere contributing to the greenhouse effect far more than carbon dioxide. The peat bog covers about 360,000 square miles and the world’s coal beds cover hundreds of thousands of miles. If it took tens of millions of years for coal to be created then how much methane was released during that time? Massive amounts of methane would have catastrophic consequences and the tropical environment which evolutionists claim was necessary for coalification would not have remained.

Gregory Ryskin, an associate professor of chemical engineering at Northwestern University believes an enormous explosion of methane gas was the cause of a mass extinction 251 million years ago (13). Coal bed methane is created along with water, carbon dioxide and nitrogen, as organic matter changes into coal. Methane is highly flammable and if it caught fire a peat bog in the process of coalification could have also caught fire affecting the outcome. It makes more sense that the plant life was trapped and pressurized quickly and the methane was also created and trapped quickly. In coal, methane is absorbed into the solid coal matrix and has to be extracted from the coal seam.

1. 1. The Spirorbis Problem; http://www.grisda.org/origins/02051.htm; also Origin by Design by Harold G. Coffin, Robert H. Brown and R. James Gibson, 1993, p. 199

2. Biomass allocation in Late Pennsylvania coal-swamp plants by R. Baker and  W.A. DiMichele. 1997. Palaios 12: 127-132

3. Low-Temperature Formation of Dolomite and Magnesite by J.C. Deelman, Chapter 5 - Organic or Inorganic?, p. 6
http://www.jcdeelman.demon.nl/dolomite/files/

4. Ibid

5. Ibid

6. Early Diagenetic Calcareous Coal Balls and Roof Shale Concretions from the Pennsylvanian by Lon A. McCullough, The Ohio Journal of Science. v77, n3 (May, 1977), p. 125
https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/1811/22447/1/V077N3_125.pdf

7. Early Diagenetic Calcareous Coal Balls and Roof Shale Concretions from the Pennsylvanian by Lon A. McCullough,  The Ohio Journal of Science. v77, n3 (May, 1977), p. 131

8. http://eprints.rhul.ac.uk/135/1/38ScottandRex.pdf 

9. Ibid

10. Evidence of Evolution by Nicholas Hotton, 1968, p. 57

11. The Handy Geology Answer Book by Patricia Barnes-Svarney and Thomas E. Svarney, p. 144

12. Soft-bodied fossils from the roof shales of the Wigan Four Foot coal seam, Westhoughton, Lancashire, UK, Geological Magazine (1999), 136:321-329 Cambridge University Press

13. Methane: the Great Dying? http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=582

Offline Crispus

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Evidence for a Global Flood
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2009, 02:51:55 PM »
Shale

Shale is the most common sedimentary rock and is formed by compaction. Fossils, animal tracks and raindrop impact craters have been found in shale indicating that it was formed quickly under enormous pressure. The Burgess shale formation in Canada is unique because it contains many fossils of soft bodied organisms. There are fossils of sponges, various worm-like phyla (annelids and priapulids), brachiopods, echinoderms, chordates, and mollusks as well as algae. One of the algae is morania confluens which easily disintegrates over time. In an anaerobic environment marine invertebrates normally curl up when they die but those found in the Burgess Shale do not exhibit this coiling (1).

In a paper about the Burgess Shale, James W. Hagadorn, assistant professor of geology at Amherst College, states that rapid burial and low oxygenation are necessary for the preservation of a variety of soft and hard-bodied organisms representing most major marine phyla. Many of these fossils left carbon films showing marine creatures were fossilized rapidly. This has caused a problem for evolutionary scientists who have tried to explain how carbonization could have occurred over a long period of time. Since fossilization requires rapid burial and removal from oxygen and shale is formed from compaction then logically the Burgess Shale was formed rapidly.

The fossils in the Burgess Shale formation are said to be from the middle Cambrian period which brings to mind Dawkins statement that most of the major invertebrate groups found in Cambrian strata appear in an advanced state of evolution as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history (2). Evolutionists believe these fossil deposits were formed when part of a muddy ocean floor slid downward creating an anaerobic environment favorable to fossilization. The Burgess Shale is located in the Canadian Rockies and is 7,400 above sea level.

Another geological wonder consisting of shale and loaded with fossils of soft bodied organisms is in Chengjiang China. According to the Palaeobiology and Biodiversity Research Group at the University of Bristol (U.K) "Excellent preservation is attributed to short transport and rapid burial in an 'undisturbed' environment." They also state there are brachiopods and priapulid worms buried in life positions at Chengjiang and the cause of death of animals there was asphyxia.

Polystrate Fossils

According to wikipedia fossil forests have been discovered in North America, Europe and Australia and were preserved by rapid deposition.

"Mainstream geologists have also found that some of the larger polystrate trees found within Carboniferous coal-bearing strata show evidence of regeneration after being partially buried by sediments. In the case of these polystrate trees, they were clearly alive when partially buried by sediments." (3)

If trees were deposited into peat bogs that were in the process of coalification then why weren’t they assimilated into the peat eventually becoming coal? In 2005 a fossilized forest covering forty square miles was found in an Illinois coal mine. Scientists believe there was an earthquake that flooded and buried the forest. Among the species of plants were the fossilized remains of mangrove-like plants. On an evolutionary time scale mangroves appear in the late Cretaceous period more than 200 million years after the Carboniferous period and one of the researchers, Howard Falcon-Lang of the University of Bristol, U.K., said "It was always assumed that mangrove plants had evolved fairly recently." In 2008 a team from the Department of Earth Sciences at University of Bristol led by Dr. Falcon-Lang found five more fossilized forests in Illinois. They are believed to have grown a few million years apart about 300 million years ago yet, oddly, they are stacked one on top of the other.
"It appears the ancient land experienced repeated periods of subsidence and flooding which buried the forests in a vertical sequence."

They were on a fault line but it seems quite unlikely that the epicenter of those earthquakes would be in the exact same place producing the same results five different times. If the earthquake occurred at the beginning of a cataclysmic flood then rip currents and massive waves would take plants, animals and sediment to the lowest point in a valley or plain unless there were obstacles or resistance. Along with the fact that fossilization is usually associated with flooding requiring rapid burial and removal from oxygen the finds in Illinois present another problem for evolutionists. The trees were not assimilated into the peat bogs eventually becoming coal after millions of years. Instead the plants left an impression in the coal bed showing that they were buried quickly and were put under extreme pressure. This is consistent with the creationist explanation of the formation of coal and not with the evolutionary explanation. On the page about compression fossils on wikipedia it says "While it is uncommon to find animals preserved as good compression fossils it is very common to find plants preserved this way." While the statement about animals may be open for some debate, compressive stress would preserve the huge fossil forests in Illinois. There are also fossil forests in Yellowstone Park, New Zealand, Ellesmere Island and Axel Heiberg Island in the Canadian Arctic among other places.

Randy S. Berg wrote a very good article in two parts called The "Fossil Forests" of Nova Scotia. The Joggins cliffs have fossils of spirorbis and naidites, a bivalve mollusk. Another good article about polystrate fossils is Polystrate Fossils Require Rapid Deposition. There are some great photographs of fossils from the Joggins Cliffs including a fossil trackway from a horseshoe crab at ianjuby.org/jogginsc.html. One of the layers of compressed, fossil sea bed contains small leaves, fish scales and sea shells.

The following definitions are from page 144 of The Handy Geology Answer Book by Patricia Barnes-Svarney and Thomas E. Svarney.
"Dissolution/replacement – in dissolution and replacement, groundwater (especially acidic water) dissolves the part of the organism that is trapped in sediments; it might simultaneously deposit a mineral such as silica, calcite or iron in its place."
"Wood becomes petrified through the process of dissolution and replacement. This occurs when water that contains dissolved minerals such as calcium carbonate (CaCO3) and silicate permeates it."
                                                                                           
According to Wikipedia sedimentary rocks cover 75% - 80% of the Earth's land area and include chalk, limestone, dolomite, sandstone and shale (4). Massive chalk deposits are found in the White Cliffs of Dover, the White Rocks of Ireland and in France. Aerobic environments do not allow for the preservation of the micro-organisms that make up chalk or the formation of fossils and the chalk rocks are rich in fossils.

In the September-October 1995 issue of Creation ex nihilo is an article called 'Instant Petrified Wood' by Australian geologist Dr. Andrew Snelling:

"Under the right chemical conditions wood can be rapidly petrified by silicification, even at normal temperatures and pressures.....The time frame for the formation of the petrified wood within the geological record is totally compatible with the biblical time scale of a recent creation and a subsequent devastating global Flood."

Yongsoon Shin and his colleagues at the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory converted wood into a ceramic in a laboratory in a few days through silicification, a type of petrification. Shin said the lab process "is pretty much same as petrification in nature, where the products are even denser -- organic components are self-degrading -- due to the long time process" (5). Click on this link to see a picture of four phases of petrification in one piece of wood. At the Southern Forest World Museum in Waycross, Ga. there is a dog named Stucky that was petrified in a tree stump along with the wood.

In 1995 Dr. Tim Demko of Colorado State University found about 40 fossilized bee nests within giant petrified, or mummified, logs at the Petrified Forest National Park in Arizona. The fossil tree trunks are dated from 207 to 220 million years ago. According to David Alexander and Steven Vogel, professor of biology at Duke University, bees first appeared about 70 million years ago (6). Fossilization requires rapid burial and removal from oxygen and the fossilized bee’s nests in petrified logs show that the wood was petrified quickly rather than over thousands of years. For the sake of argument let's assume the logs were petrified for at least 137 million years before they were inhabited by bees, they survived a second flood event in which the bees nest was fossilized and both the logs and bees nest survived the forces of erosion over millions of years. That still doesn't explain how both survived the shockwave and ensuing tidal wave of the Chicxulub asteroid!

1. http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/cambrian/burgess.html

2. The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins, Penguin Science, 1991, reprint, p. 229.

3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polystrate_fossil

4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedimentary_rock

5. http://www.livescience.com/technology/050127_petrified_wood.html

6. Nature's Flyers: Birds, Insects, and the Biomechanics of Flight by David E. Alexander and Steven Vogel, 2002, p. 182

Offline Crispus

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Evidence for a Global Flood
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2009, 02:53:46 PM »
Fossil Graveyards

Vast fossil graveyards have been discovered, often with animals that normally wouldn't have been together when they died. Trying to avoid a catastrophe and survive could put them in the same location at the time of death. A fossil graveyard was discovered in Tampa, Florida that has fossilized camels, horses, mammoths, bears, wolves, large cats, sharks' teeth, turtle shells, the bones of fresh and salt water fish and a bird with an estimated 30-foot wingspan.

In Glacial and Pleistocene Geology, R. F. Flint describes the animals found in an Alaskan fossil graveyard:
"The fauna list includes two types of bears, dire wolf, wolf, fox, badger, wolverine, saber-tooth cat, jaguar, lynx, wooly mammoth, mastodon, two horses, camel, saiga antelope, four bison, caribou, moose, stag-moose, elk, two sheep, musk-ox and yak types, ground sloth, and several rodents." (1)                                                                       

Other fossil graveyards include the Ashley Beds of South Carolina, the Cumberland Bone Cave in Maryland, the La Brea Tar Pits in California, the Herring fossil layers in California, the hippopotamus beds in Sicily, Agate Springs in Nebraska, love bone bed in Florida, insect fossils of Elmo Kansas, Mazon Creek formation in Illinois, the Green River formation and Florissant Fossil Beds in Colorado, the Montceau-les-Mines in France, Scotland's Old Red Sandstone, the Egyptian desert there's a place called Zeuglodon Valley and Ukhaa Tolgod in the Gobi desert, Mongolia. In the Australian outback there's an area of fossilized jellyfish (trace fossils) in a sandstone bed covering more than 400 square miles. In 2002 thousands of fossilized impressions of jellyfish were discovered in a quarry in Mosinee, Wisconsin. They were in sandstone beds that were stacked horizontally in seven layers of rock about 12 feet high.
 
In 2001 Cuban paleontologist, Arturo Vildozola found more than 500 giant oyster fossils in the Andes mountains; about 4000 feet above sea level. When an oyster’s central muscle relaxes after death, the ligament pulls the shells open but these oysters were in the closed position which may have resulted from being rapidly buried in silt. The Burgess and Chengjiang lagerstatten and the Joggins cliffs are in fact fossil graveyards as are the Redwall Limestone in the Grand Canyon and the redbeds (Satanka shale) at Laramie Wyoming. The Wellington formation in Kansas and Medco formation in Oklahoma have many fossilized insects. Then there's the Karoo formation which evolutionists say is problematic for a global flood but the process of fossilization does not allow for dead organisms to lay around waiting to be fossilized.

Transgression and Recession

One of the questions most often asked about the global flood is where did the water go? Evolutionists say that there would be too much water while Creationists state that the oceans are deeper today than they were before the flood. But eustatic sea level change is something evolutionists have to deal with also. In the 1950's marine geologist Edwin L. Hamilton of the Navy Electronics Laboratory made a remarkable statement:

"Perhaps the ocean volume increased enough to explain most of the relative sinking of the seamounts. If the latter idea is correct, something on the order of a 30 percent increase in the volume of the oceans must have occurred during the last 100 million years" (2)

Hamilton comments came from observing flat-topped seamounts or submarine volcanoes (guyots) which were discovered in the 1940’s by Navy captain Harry Hess, one of the founding fathers of the plate tectonic theory. If this is the correct explanation it fits perfectly with a model of the global flood. In a two part book series called Geology it explains that the reason for transgression, or rise in sea level, is an increase in volcanic activity in the ocean ridge systems. As volcanic activity decreases, the mid-ocean ridge drops and the volume of the ocean basins increases resulting in regression. These “large-scale fluctuations resulting in the flooding of not only the continental shelves and the coastal plains but also the interiors of the continents" (3).

Scientists have hypothesized that seas advanced during the Pennsylvanian period to explain the deposition of marine fossils in the coal deposits of Pennsylvania and Appalachia. So most of the countries that have coal beds would have been underwater as would the plains and deltas of other countries and low lying islands. This was before the breakup of Pangaea so much of the world at that time would have been underwater.

The Carboniferous period supposedly ended about 290 million years ago and Pangaea did not begin to break up until 250 million years ago. At present the Joggins cliffs of Nova Scotia and the Appalachian coal mines are almost three thousand miles from the Pacific Ocean. If seas advanced during the Pennsylvanian period marine creatures such as the spirorbiris would have had to travel at least 3,000 miles from the west to reach these areas and this doesn't take into account erosion of the coastline, the height of what are now the Rocky Mountains or all hills or mountains at that time. The state fossil of Kentucky, and most common one found there, is the brachiopod, an ancient line of shellfish. They are found in different strata including Ordovician, Silurian, Devonian, Mississippian, and Pennsylvanian. The marine creatures fossilized in the Burgess Shale and Chengjiang, China are said to be from the Cambrian period more than 500 million years ago on the evolutionary time scale. The nautiloids found in the Grand Canyon were mollusks and are from the Paleozoic era between 542 million years and 251 million years ago. That fossil graveyard goes across northern Arizona and into Nevada covering an area of approximately 10,500 square miles! Fossils of marine creatures are also found at the Grand Canyon in the Kaibab Limestone, Toroweap Formation, Temple Butte Limestone, Muav Limestone, Bright Angel Shale and Tapeats Sandstone.
 
There are many marine creatures which are state fossils including Basilosaurus, Oligocene, the beluga whale, Tullimonstrum gregarium (Tully monster), brachipods, crinoids, ichthyosaur, Eurypterus remipes (sea scorpion), trilobites and coral. Fossils discovered in Arkansas include ammonoids, arthropods, bivalves, blastoids, brachiopods, bryozoa, cephalopods, crinoids, corals, gastropods, nautiloids, trilobites and shark teeth. There is evidence for the flood in the Grand Canyon. Fossils of marine creatures called nautiloids are in a bed of Redwall Limestone that begins at the Grand Canyon and covers an area of approximately 5,700 square miles. Other layers of the canyon are full of fossils of marine life and there is a problem with inter-bedded layers.

Trilobites have also been found in the Weeks formation in Utah contains many trilobite fossils including Ammagnostus laiwuensis, Tricrepicephalus texanus, and Norwoodella. In Indiana Trilobites are found the Dillsboro, Edwardsville, Whitewater, Staunton, Osgood, Big Clifty, Locust Point, Wabash and Waldron Shale formations. There are trilobite fossils in California, Iowa, Massachusetts, Missouri, Montana, Nevada, New York, Oklahoma, Tennessee and Virginia. Two areas of Yellowstone National Park in Montana are trilobite lake and trilobite ridge. At one time All these areas were underneath the ocean. Trilobite fossils have also been found in Antarctica, Argentina, Australia, Bolivia, Canada, the Czech Republic, China, Germany, India, Morocco, New Zealand, Portugal, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, Venezuela and the United Kingdom and that’s not a complete list! See 'Proof For Continents Are Rising Upward' and 'How did dinosaurs come to India' at http://www.originofplanets.com/. In the latter article it says a 95 million year old dinosaur skull was unearthed from the narmada river bed region of India has raised hot debate because the dinosaur fossils contradict the theory of continental drift.

If one were to take into account all the marine fossils found in layers from the carboniferous period (Pennsylvanian and Mississippian) and the coal beds that supposedly formed during that time, there would have been extensive areas of the United States under water at that time, all before the breakup of Pangaea. It does not account the pressure needed for the formation of shale and coal and leaves evolutionists with questions similar to ones they may ask creationists about a global flood:

If the amount of salt in the Ocean is about the same now as it was more than 300 million years ago what effect would it have had on all plant life in the interior of the continents?

What effect would the advancing seas have on all animals on land?

If sea levels increased in one area enough to reach thousands of miles in land then what about the sea levels on all the coastlines of Pangaea?

If South America and Africa broke up about 150 million years ago and having been drifting apart very slowly since then why do the coast lines still look so similar? With the constant pounding of the waves, wind, rain, powerful storms and flooding over millions of years the coastlines of the two continents look remarkably similar. Erosion on shorelines continues because of constant wave action, climactic events and other factors and shorelines would have changed over one hundred thousand years or millions of years. There are beach towns that have spent millions of dollars replacing sand eroded into the sea only to lose the sand again in a few years.

The current theory (the Bruun Rule) is sand erodes from the coastline, fills the seabed off the coast and is moved back to the coast as sea levels rise. But the Bruun Rule is receiving more and more scrutiny from scientists. Sea-level rise and shoreline retreat: time to abandon the Bruun Rule (pdf format). On page 2 of that paper is a description of the numerous factors that cause changes in the morphology of coasts. Coastal geomorphologist, Dr. Peter Cowell, of the University of Sydney says current models are outmoded and outdated. He and others are concerned that beaches could erode more than the accepted models would show if global warming raises sea levels. This brings up the question of the effect methane would have had on the earth if released during the carboniferous period.

1. R.F. Flint, Glacial and Pleistocene Geology, 1957, p. 471

2. Edwin L. Hamilton, "The Last Geographic Frontier: The Sea Floor," in Scientific Monthly, December 1957, p. 305

3. Geology Vol. 2, edited by James A. Woodhead, Salem Press, 1999. p. 649

Offline Crispus

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Evidence for a Global Flood
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2009, 02:55:01 PM »
Rapid Uplift

After the earthquake and subsequent tsunami on Dec. 26, 2004, the Malacca straits separating Malaysia and Sumatra had its depth cut from 4,060 feet to 105 feet. Sonar images taken by the crew of the British navy ship HMS Scott show the massive uplift of an area 10 kilometers wide and up to 1.5 kilometers high. In another area effected by the tsunami the depth was cut from 3,855 feet to just 92 feet (1). In 1707, an island called Isola Nuova (New Island) was formed off Santorini in the Grecian Archipelago. In 1796, a new island rose to the height of 350 feet, having two miles of circumference, in the Aleutian group, east of Kamtschatka, which is permanent. In  1831 a volcanic island called Graham's Island rose from the sea off the coast of Sicily and was 180 feet high and 1 1/3  miles in  circumference. The part of the island above water was composed of loose materials and disappeared in a few years leaving a deposit of rocky shoal (2).

Rapid Erosion

An example of rapid erosion caused by massive flooding is the Glacial Lake Missoula which contained more water than Lake Erie and Lake Ontario combined. When an ice dam burst water shot out flooding a massive area with a force estimated at ten times the combined flow of all the rivers of the world  with speeds near 65 mph (3). It cut canyons and covered cliffs reshaping the landscape and reaching to the Pacific. On PBS' website it says a now dry waterfall, periodically vanished underwater as floodwaters with sediment and debris drained off the Quincy basin into the Columbia River and the water also covered portions of the Saddle Mountains. Ironically, they say this about the Palouse River Canyon:

"Geologists have long known that the modern-day Palouse River is too modest a creek to have carved these massive canyons. Lying just north of the river's confluence with the Snake River, these basalt canyons provide further evidence that giant floods thousands of years ago did the brunt of the work." (4)

Iceland is very geologically active with a lot of volcanic activity and lava filled formations. In September of 1996 Bárdarbunga volcano erupted and a four mile long fissure opened through a 1,500 thick foot glacier. Water drained along a narrow channel under the glacier and into Lake Grímsvötn causing it to swell 200 feet higher than its usual flood risk trigger level. On November 5, 1996 the ice dam collapsed and a wall of water rushed out of Lake Grímsvötn at two million cubic feet per second; more than twenty times the rate that water flows down Niagara falls. Some of the highway that rings Iceland disappeared, a bridge over the Gígja River was swept away with the flood waters and another bridge was badly damaged (5). Over the next two days the flood dumped about 30 feet of sediment over a 500 square mile area and formed an ice canyon 6 km long, 500 m wide and up to 200 m deep at the southeastern margin of Lake Grímsvötn (6). Massive floods can not only enlarge channels but even erode bedrock (7).

Burlingame Canyon near Walla Walla, Washington is 1,500 feet long, 120 feet wide with a maximum depth of about 120 feet and was formed in less than six days. Water could not get through a constriction at Wallula Gap and backflood deposits from flooding of the Pasco Basin formed the canyon.

Genesis 7:11 says "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened."

In 1977, scientists discovered hydrothermal vents or "smokers" at a depth of 2.5 km off the coast of Ecuador. Other hydrothermal vents have since been discovered in the Pacific, Atlantic, Indian and Arctic oceans. Why would a Mid-Eastern nomad say "all the fountains of the great deep burst open" thousands of years before this discovery? If there were geysers in the Mediterranean or smaller bodies of water in the area then a skeptic could surmise this became part of the story from observation. One example in the Mediterranean is the island of Pantelleria, near Sicily, about 50 miles from Africa. Wikipedia has a list of notable geysers and they are located in the United States, New Zealand, Iceland and Russia. Since the original flood story was written more than four thousand years before the discovery of ocean ridges and submarine volcanoes this would have been an incredibly lucky guess that they existed! Geologists believe that increased volcanic activity in the ocean ridge systems is one reason that transgression occurs resulting in the flooding of coastal plains and the interior of the continents.

Commenting on the theory that life may have originated from hydrothermal vents, Walter Bradley, Professor of Engineering at Baylor University and co author of 'The Mystery of Life's Origins,' said "It's now thought that all of the water in the ocean is periodically recirculated through these vents" (8). In 2006 seismologist Michael Wysession of Washington University in St. Louis and his former graduate student Jesse Lawrence discovered a vast water reservoir deep beneath the earth. It's located beneath eastern Asia and has at least the volume of the Arctic ocean. The water is locked in moisture-containing rocks between 400 and 800 miles beneath the earth's surface. Wysession believes that geological hot spots, such as Yellowstone National Park, may be caused by smaller bodies of water in the mantle that weaken the rock and allow heat to escape.

Fossil Fuels

Fossil fuels favor a global flood because dead organisms decay rapidly.  In 1972 George R. Hill, Dean of the College of Mines and Mineral Industries said a possible mechanism for the formation of high rank coals may have been a short, rapid heating event (9). A company called Changing World Technologies has patented a method of "thermal depolymerisation process" which breaks down carbon-based matter by converting it into petroleum (10). There are fossils in the Messel Oil Shale Fossil Site near Frankfurt Germany. Precious stones can be formed in a relatively short time with tremendous pressure and the question remains how did the organic material not decay for millions of years???

1. Tsunami redrew ship channels, ocean floor - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6791600

2. Elementary Geology by Edward Hitchcock, 1860, 31st. ed., p. 178

3. http://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/Glossary/Glaciers/IceSheets/description_lake_missoula.html
http://www.uwsp.edu/geo/projects/geoweb/participants/dutch/vtrips/Scablands0.HTM

4. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/megaflood/scab-nf.html

5. http://www.wdcgc.spri.cam.ac.uk/news/jokulhlaup/

6. http://www.wdcgc.spri.cam.ac.uk/news/jokulhlaup/cany2.jpg

7. Flood Geomorphology by Victor R. Baker, R. Craig Kochel and Peter C. Patton, p. 88

8. William Bradley, interviewed by Lee Strobel in The Case For Faith, 2000, p. 106

9. Chemical Technology, May, 1972, p. 296

10. http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2003/may/22/research.highereducation1

Offline Crispus

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Evidence for a Global Flood
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2009, 02:57:23 PM »
Whale Fossils on Mountains

In 1976 a fossilized whale was discovered by workers in Lompoc California. The Lompoc whale wasn’t standing on its tale as first reported but at a 40 degree angle and was buried rapidly in diatomic earth. More than 500 fossilized baleen whales have been found in western Peru over 20 kilometers from the Pacific Ocean. The area is called the Pisco formation and researchers believe the whales were killed by toxic blooms of diatoms then buried by the accumulation of diatom frustules on the seafloor. But that doesn’t explain what happened to the diatoms, how the whales were moved from a shallow seafloor to where they are now or if the Pisco formation was once part of the seafloor. Either way it is another example of rapid burial and preservation of marine creatures found on land.

In 1987 an article appeared in the New York Times called "Whale Fossils High in Andes Show How Mountains Rose from Sea."

"Scientists have found fossil whales and other marine animals in mountain sediments in the Andes, indicating that the South American mountain chain rose very rapidly from the sea.....Assemblages comparable to these are virtually unknown in the Andes, since geological upthrusting generally destroys fossil beds" (1)

This last statement is significant to say the least. Noel Odell said the fossil fragments brought back from expeditions to Mt. Everest in 1956 and 1963 are probably crinoid and were probably formed from the Carboniferous to lower Permian period (2). Those fossil fragments would have had to survive geological upthrusting and erosive forces on Mt. Everest as it reached an altitude of more than 29,000 feet over 40 million years. Assigning the younger age of the lower Permian to the fossil fragments on Mt. Everest would make them about 260 million years old! In the New York Times article Dr. Michael J. Novacek, chairman of the paleontology department of the American Museum of Natural History, is quoted as saying nearly all of the fossils were embedded in surface rock and easy to pick up and despite weathering, many of the smallest fossils were remarkably intact and will be relatively easy to study." According to the article the bones of whales and other marine animals were found at altitudes of more than 5,000 feet. In 1998 the fossillized jawbone of a whale was disovered in the foothills of the Himalayas (3).
 
In 2007 the skeleton of a whale was found in Tuscany about six miles from the Mediterranean and  fossils of shells and fish and shark teeth were found around the whale fossil. Shark fossils have also been discovered in Ohio and, in 1987, the fossil of a beluga whale was discovered in Norfolk, New York. Fisherman have discovered mastodon and mammoth teeth from more than 40 different sites off the Atlantic coast of the United States, some of them as far away as 75 miles from shore (4). There have also been whale fossils discovered in Cornwall, Ontario, the Jacquet River in New Brunswick and in Montreal. In 1849 railroad workers uncovered the fossil of a beluga whale in Vermont which is the inspiration for a sculpture called “Reverence” in Burlington. The whale fossil was found 150 feet above sea level along with fossilized clams, mussels and plants.

Lake Titicaca

Lake Titicaca is the highest navigable lake on earth at more than 12,000 feet above sea level. It is located in Peru and Bolivia covering about 3,200 square miles and the northern tip is about 1,000 miles south of the equator. It is about 120 miles long and, at its widest point, 50 miles across. The average depth is 100 meters and the deepest point is 281 meters. In 2000 divers found a temple at the bottom of Lake Titicaca after following a submerged road. More than 200 dives were made to depths of as much as 100 feet. The temple is believed to have been built 1,000 to 1,500 years ago but, if that's the case, then what are they doing at the bottom of Titicaca? One possible explanation is an earthquake. But, would an earthquake have been able to move a temple 200 meters long and 50 meters wide, a terrace for crops and an 800 meter long containing wall from the shores of Lake Titicaca to a depth of 60 feet without destroying them completely? Furthermore, divers followed a submerged road to the discovery indicating the temple and wall were originally located by that road (5). There are also ancient submerged structures in Yonaguni Japan. What appears to be a sunken city off the coast of Cuba is being studied by scientists and there are other sunken cities in India, China and Peru.

Lake Titicaca is actually made up of two smaller sub-basins so another explanation is that they were originally not connected and the area where the temple and containing wall were found was dry until about 1,000 to 1,500 years ago. If Lake Titicaca was formed at the end of the last ice age as many geologists believe that raises some questions:

If it was the result of a glacier or flooding at the end of the last ice age what effect would this have had on the entire earth since the glacier would have reached 1,000 miles south of the equator?

How was it able to reach a height of more than two miles before it deposited massive amounts of water?

How was a slow moving glacier able to cross the Andes mountains south of Lake Titicaca which exceed 6,000 feet in height?

If the lake was much closer to sea level about 13,000 years ago does this mean the rapid uplift of mountains is possible?

Geoglyphs found near Lake Titicaca are believed to be very old and many are built into the bedrock under flood sediments: Author David Flynn noted "The geoglyphs seem to be physical evidence that supports the Middle and South American myths of world deluge and giants" (6).
 
1. "Whale Fossils High in Andes Show How Mountains Rose from Sea" by Malcolm W. Browne, The New York Times, March 12, 1987, p. A 22 http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DEFDC143CF931A25750C0A961948260

2. The highest fossils in the world by N.E. Odell, Geological Magazine, January 1967; v. 104; no. 1; pp. 73-74

3. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19981222/ai_n14185701

4. Elephant Teeth from the Atlantic Continental Shelf; Science, June 1967, Volume 156, Issue 3781, pp. 1477-1481

5. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/892616.stm

6. http://officialdisclosure.com/giants.htm

Offline Crispus

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« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2009, 02:59:00 PM »

Dinosaurs

The belief that dinosaurs became extinct from an asteroid forming the Chicxulub crater is still being debated. Princeton University micropaleontologist Gerta Keller has studied microfossils at the Chicxulub crater and other sites around the world. Keller says "These single-celled organisms are extremely sensitive to environmental changes" and "by studying their calcium carbonate shells, it is possible to determine temperature, salinity and other barometers of the time" (1).

If the asteroid that caused the Chicxulub crater was the cause of dinosaur extinction it raises questions. The impact of the asteroid has been estimated to release energy several thousand to hundreds of millions times more than that of the Hiroshima bomb and would cause an atmospheric shock wave. In an article called Scientists Debate Dinosaur Demise the author states “Such a large impact would also have triggered a host of natural disasters, including volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, tsunamis and global firestorms that fried, starved and suffocated the beasts.”

If it caused a nuclear winter then why did only certain creatures like dinosaurs become extinct? Wouldn’t it have killed off most, if not all, of the animal and plant life on earth making it necessary for the evolutionary process to begin again at an early stage? In that article it says “Markus Harting of the University of Utrecht in the Netherlands and a small group of scientists thinks the Chicxulub impact happened too early to have been the infamous dinosaur-killer.” Harting believes the impact happened about 300,000 years before dinosaurs became extinct as does Gerta Keller. (2)

An article called Catastrophism and Mass Extinctions shows the serious problems that may have been caused by a meteor including the greenhouse effect and acid rain. Conversely Keller believes that nearly all species could survive a single short-term shock to the environment. Dinosaur fossils in the Colville River in Alaska also raises questions about the asteroid theory. Roland Gangloff is earth science curator of the University of Alaska Museum and said "If dinosaurs adapted to such a variety of environments, how did one nuclear winter knock them off? Anyone who explains the whole picture of dinosaur extinction has to explain high-latitude dinosaurs" (3) For a synopsis of the Chicxulub controversy see Chicxulub and the Demise of the Dinosaurs on icr.org.

In the March 2007 issue of the quarterly journal Paleobiology there’s a report called “The opisthotonic posture of vertebrate skeletons: postmortem contraction or death throes?” The authors are Kevin Padian, Professor of integrative biology and curator in the Museum of Paleontology at the University of California, Berkeley, and Cynthia Marshall Faux of the Museum of the Rockies. They believe "The peculiar pose of many fossilized dinosaurs, with wide-open mouth, head thrown back and recurved tail, likely resulted from the agonized death throes typical of brain damage and asphyxiation…" (4). Both fossilization and asphyxiation can be attributed to a flood and the Chicxulub impact still has more questions than answers. There is an abstract of Padian and Faux’s paper at paleobiol.geoscienceworld.org

In March of 1878 Jules Cre'teur of the Hainaut coal company discovered pyrite, or fool’s gold, at the bottom of a coal mine in Bernissart, Belgium. In April, 1878 Monsieur de Pauw, the preparator of the museum of Natural History in Brussels, discovered a very fragile dinosaur foot at the bottom of the mine. Over the next three years six hundred blocks of embedded fossils weighing 130 tons were excavated from the mine. In that collection were 31 fossil skeletons of Iguanodon bernissartensis which were found at the bottom of the coal mine; a depth of 1056 feet (5). The Iguanodon bernissartensis was about 33 feet long and weighed about 3 and 1/2 tons and are believed to have lived during the early Cretaceous period, about 146 million years ago.

Besides coal there is also chalk, limestone, clay, layers of silex nodules and conglomerates at Bernissart. Chalk forms under relatively deep marine conditions from the accumulation of microfossils called coccoliths which come from coccolithophores; single-celled algae, protests and phytoplankton and are exclusively marine organisms. The primary source of calcite in limestone is usually marine organisms. The cran of Bernissart yielded not only fossil of iguanodons but also some small turtles, several crocodiles, 3,000 fish and several plants. In the Bernissart mines there were sinkholes, or crans, often found inside coal layers composed of sedimentary rock but the Iguanodons were found in different layers of a cran. The explanation that's been given is a ravine was formed in the coal seam from erosion. A carnivore, or carnivores, attacked a herd of Iguanodons as they were eating near the ravine and the herd fled and fell into the ravine. That theory was probably based on another fossil found at Bernissart. There are fragments of a predatory dinosaur within the bed where Iguanodon's were found. Then there's the question of what eroded solidified coal and why did it happen only in certain areas? Unfortunately, there was plenty of information available about the areas which had been mined but knowledge of the cran and the region above it was very poor (6).

In a blog called "New light on Iguanodon" the author says there's no evidence that herds of animals plunged into a ravine. There is no name given for the author but it is taken from "Dinosaurs: A Very Short Introduction" by David Norman.

Quote
The sediments in which the dinosaurs are embedded also directly contradict the ravine or river-valley interpretations. Finely stratified shales containing the fossils are normally deposited in low-energy, relatively shallow-water environments, probably equivalent to a large lake or lagoon. There is simply no evidence for catastrophic deaths caused by herds of animals plunging into a ravine. In fact, the dinosaur skeletons were found in separate layers of sediment (along with fish, crocodiles, turtles, thousands of leaf impressions, and even rare insect fragments), proving that they definitely did not all die at the same time and therefore could never have been part of a single herd of animals. Study of the orientation of the fossil skeletons within the mine suggests that dinosaur carcasses were washed into the burial area on separate occasions and from different directions. It was as if the direction of flow of the river that carried their carcasses had changed from time to time, exactly as happens in large, slow-moving river systems today. So, as early as the 1870s, it was clearly understood that there were neither ‘ravines’ nor ‘river valleys’ in which the dinosaurs at Bernissart might have perished. It is fascinating how the dramatic discovery of dinosaurs at Bernissart seems to have demanded an equally dramatic explanation for their deaths, and that such fantasies were uncritically adopted even though they flew in the face of the scientific evidence available at the time.

http://about-dinasaurs.blogspot.com/2007/06/new-light-on-iguanodon.html

Dinosaur footprints have been found in coal mines in eastern Utah, the Grand Mesa coal field near Gunnison, Colorado and Grand Cache in Alberta, Canada. In one paper about dinosaur footprints in mine roof surfaces it say they are protrusions which hang down from the roof and when dinosaurs walked in the peat on the surface of a swamp their footprints were filled by mud, silt or sand during the flooding of a local river (7). Fossil leaves, ferns, dicot leaves, petrified tree stumps, pelecypods, gastropods horizontal logs and trees in growth position are also on the roof of the Price River mine. According to the evolutionary timeline, the Carboniferous period ended about 290 million years ago and dinosaurs appeared in the Triassic period about 225 million years ago. Some evolutionists on another board told me they don't believe all coal was formed during the carboniferous era and the Blackhawk formation was formed much later, during the Cretaceous period. Reptilian impressions of footsteps were discovered in coal measures in Pennsylvania indicating rapid formation (8).

In 1997 researchers discovered fossils in a dinosaur nesting ground in the Patagonian badlands of Argentina. They found several eggs that contained the tiny bones of embryonic dinosaurs as well as an egg with the fossilized skin of an embryonic dinosaur:

"How could such delicate skin have been petrified quickly enough after the animal died to survive for more than 70 million years?"

Good question! Mary Schweitzer of North Carolina State University discovered dinosaur bones with translucent blood vessels and soft tissue. There are some great photos on the New York Times website. On talk origins they explain the discovery by interviewing Schweitzer's colleague who said “No cells have been found in any dinosaurs, but the remnants of red blood cells have been hypothesized on the basis of heme, a kind of iron produced biologically.” Besides iron heme contains oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, and carbon. Perhaps they can carbon date the heme.   

The hip bone of a T-Rex that was excavated more than 100 years ago was found to have "intact, mummified microscopic collagen fibers and other ultrastructural features within compact bone" (9). In 2000 a duckbill dinosaur named Leonardo was found on a cattle ranch north of Malta, Montana. It had almost 90 percent of its skin intact and its last meal in its stomach. Robert Bakker, curator of paleontology at the Houston Museum of Natural Science said ""Inside the rib cage you can see his intestines and stomach and see what he was eating in the weeks before he died." In 2007 a mummified dinosaur named Dakota was found with its entire skin envelope remaining largely intact. Paleontologist Phil Manning of the University of Manchester (U.K.) said "The skin has been mineralized. It is an actual three-dimensional structure, backfilled with sediment" (10)

In 1993 Paleontological investigator Mike Hammer discovered the fossil of dinosaur with a fossilized heart in the Hell Creek formation in northwestern South Dakota. Some people claim it is a concretion but it is a heart-like structure in the right part of the body and ribs and plates attached to the ribs were also well preserved. In 2002 a Dinosaur Fossil Was Found in a Mammal's Stomach in China's Liaoning province. In Southern Mongolia an embryo of a neoceratopsian dinosaur was found enclosed within an egg and completely preserved.

The Morrison formation covers an area of 600,000 square miles, is centered in  Wyoming and Colorado but has outcrops in eleven other states. The Morrison formation has a wide variety of dinosaur fossils including the Supersaurus, Apatosaurus (formerly known as Brontosaurus)  and Diplodocus. The Supersaurus was over 100 feet in length and weighed between 35 to 40 tons. The Diplodocus weighed from 15 to 20 tons and was "the most graceful and delicately built sauropod dinosaur" (11). The asteroid theory is wanting and one has to wonder what force overcame these incredibly strong animals and was able to bury them so they were fossilized. There is evidence that the fossils of dinosaurs at Dinosaur National Monument in Utah were transported from other areas (12). The fossils at Dinosaur National Monument are enclosed in sandstone and a conglomerate bed of alluvial origin (13). In a location near Grand Junction, Colorado, there are fossils of many bivalves which were buried alive by rapid sedimentation (14).

1. http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/03/02/coolsc.dinosaurs.extinction/

2. http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0000D7BD-7720-1264-B1DB83414B7F0000

3. Polar Dinosaurs Tougher than Nuclear Winter?  http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF15/1581.html

4. http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2007/06/06_deaththroes.shtml

5. Dinosaur Impressions by Philippe Taquet, Kevin Padian, pp. 23, 37; see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iguanodon

6. Engineering Geology for Infrastructure Planning in Europe by Henri Robert George, 2004, p. 359

7. Dinosaur Footprints From a Coal Mine in East-Central Utah by Lee. R. Parker and Robert L. Rowley Jr.  http://www.stadiumweb.com/reprints/parkerr.html

8. Statistics of Coal by Richard Cowling Taylor, 1848, introduction, cxvii

9. http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/38/38_2/Trex.htm

10. http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2007/12/dino_mummy

11. Seismosaurus by David D. Gillette and Mark Hallett, Columbia University Press, 1999, p. 175

12. http://www.icr.org/article/106/

13. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur_National_Monument

14. The Upper Jurassic Morrison Formation: An Interdisciplinary Study : Denver Museum of Natural History, Denver, USA: May 26-28, 1994 by Kenneth Carpenter, Dan Chure, James Ian Kirkland, p. 446

Offline Crispus

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« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2009, 03:00:33 PM »
Flood Legends

In civilizations around the world there are flood stories similar to the one in the bible. I've seem figures ranging from 212 to more than 300 different flood stories with similarities to the account in Genesis. A figure which seems to be the result of extensive research is 270 different flood stories. From the Ark on Ararat by Tim Lahaye and John Morris, page 237:

"Although these traditions have been modified through the ages and some have taken on fantastic elements, most of them have certain basic elements in common:

88% of them single out a favored individual or family.
70% point to survival due to a boat.
66% see the Flood coming as a result of human wickedness.
67% speak of animals saved along with human beings.
57 % record that the survivors end up on a mountain.
66% indicate that the hero receives warning of the coming catastrophe."

In the Hawaiian story Nu'u built a large canoe with a roof and took on it his wife, three sons, and males and females of all creatures that breathed. In the Chinese story Nuwa cut off the legs of a giant turtle to hold up the sky after a great flood. Plato referred to an Egyptian flood legend in Timaeus. He wrote that the gods purified the earth by a great flood and only a few shepherds escaped by climbing a mountain. The account in the Egyptian documents says that Ra exterminated almost all of mankind by a deluge of blood because of their rebellion but relented and swore never to do it again.

One of the arguments against the historicity of the flood is that it was taken from the Sumerian account by way of the Babylonians. The Sumerian account of the flood and the Gilgamesh epic were written on cuneiform tablets and have withstood time and the elements. The Old Testament was copied on papyrus scrolls which wouldn’t have been able to withstand the elements unless preserved and kept safe and the oldest of the Dead Sea scrolls date to about 225 B.C.

"It is obvious that the differences are too great to encourage belief in direct connection between "Atra-Hasis" and Genesis, but just as obviously there is some kind of involvement in the historical traditions generally of the two peoples."
(Atra-Hasis by W. G. Lambert, A. R. Millard with The Sumerian Flood Story by Miguel Civil, 1999, p. 24)

The Babylonian account is similar to that in Genesis because the kings are listed as living very long lives but there are a few problems with this theory. If the Hebrews took the flood story from the Babylonians they would have had to insert several chapters into Genesis without objection from any scribe or Rabbi and those who read from the Torah on the Sabbath would have been fully aware of the addition. But, there’s no record of either until the school of nineteenth century higher criticism. Also, this means they would have kept a record of the kings who reigned in Edom (1 Chro. 1:43-54, Gen. 36:41-43) and a record of the descendants of Esau (Gen 36:1-29) but not have kept a record of their own ancestors and those who descended from them. But, there is the table of nations in Genesis 10 which records the descendants of Ham, Shem and Japheth.

Secular historians often use Egyptian Chronology and the Sothic dating method as a standard but on the page about Egyptian Chronology at wikipedia it says "The creation of a reliable Chronology of Ancient Egypt is a task fraught with problems."

"In the course of a single century’s research, the earliest date in Egyptian history—that of Egypt’s unification under King Menes—has plummeted from 5876 to 2900 B.C., and not even the latter year has been established beyond doubt. Do we, in fact, have any firm dates at all?" (1)

In a more recent book it says Egyptian Chronology has been revised more than twenty times and the span of thirty-one dynasties decreased by about three thousand years. (2)

Roger Henry wrote a book called Synchronized Chronology: Rethinking Middle East Antiquity. He believes the flood was mythical but calls the Hebrew historical account "rigid history" and asks some good questions:
"What happens when there is a complete rigid history paralleling Egyptian history? Which history will be trusted? Will the Old Testament Chronicles, with sequentially dated reigns of kings and judges for over 1500 years, be accepted? Or will it be assumed that disagreements with Egyptian archaeology disqualify scripture?" (3)

Writing in the first century A.D. Josephus described the migration and descendants of Noah’s sons in Antiquities of the Jews, 1:6 - How Every Nation was Denominated from their First Inhabitants. http://www.studylight.org/his/bc/wfj/antiquities/view.cgi?book=1&chapter=6

David lived about 1,000 B.C. and wrote much of the book of Psalms including Psalm 29. In that chapter he said "The LORD sits enthroned over the flood; the LORD is enthroned as King forever." (Psalm 29:10, NIV) There is a footnote in the NIV which says "or sat" and many translations say the LORD, or Jehovah, sat as King over the flood. He wrote this more than 400 years before the Jews were taken captive to Babylon. Psalm 104:6-9 says "You covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains. But at your rebuke the waters fled, at the sound of your thunder they took to flight; they flowed over the mountains, they went down into the valleys, to the place you assigned for them. You set a boundary they cannot cross; never again will they cover the earth." Though the author is unknown it clearly refers to the global flood.

"To me this is like the days of Noah, when I swore that the waters of Noah would never again cover the earth. So now I have sworn not to be angry with you, never to rebuke you again" (Isaiah 54:9, NIV). Isaiah wrote this about 700 B.C., long before the deportation to Babylon. Some skeptics believe that some of Isaiah was written centuries later because of the prophecy of Cyrus and the difference styles of  the first 39 chapters and the last 27 chapters. In chapters 1-39 of Isaiah there is an emphasis on God's judgment and in chapters 40-66 an emphasis on his forgiveness and redemption. This parallels the bible with 39 books in the O.T. and 27 books in the N.T. Isaiah 40:3, a prophecy about John the baptist is quoted early in all four accounts of the gospel. Again, if the Israelites inserted the last 27 chapters of Isaiah at a later date  they would have done it without objection from any scribe or Rabbi and those who read from the Torah on the Sabbath would have been fully aware of the addition. It's not until the nineteenth century school of higher criticism until this idea received any support. 
 
Many scholars believe the book of Job is one of the oldest books in the bible. In Job 22 it says "Will you keep to the old path that evil men have trod? They were carried off before their time, their foundations washed away by a flood." (Job 22:15-16, NIV). Some scholars believe that Job is the same person as Jobab, son of Joktan, in Genesis 10:26 the seventh generation from Noah. This is possible but I believe it is unlikely he is Jobab. Job's friend Eliphaz was a Temanite (Job 2:11, 42:7, 9) and may be the same Eliphaz born to Esau (Gen. 36:4) which would make Job a contemporary of Jacob. Eliphaz's firstborn son was Teman from where the term Temanite originated and Teman was identified as a chief. Esau was also called Edom (Gen. 36:1) and Teman and Edom are closely related; the terms being used synonymously in the O.T. (Jer. 49:7, 20, Oba. 1:8-9, Eze. 25:13). Regardless of the question of Jobab and Eliphaz in Genesis, Job lived to be 140 years old and wouldn't have lived many generations after the flood (Job 42:16).

The Ebla tablets are from the 23rd century BC and are older than the Babylonian cuneiform tablets. I have read that the flood is mentioned in the Ebla tablets but have not been able to find a specific reference. As a result of the discovery of the Ebla tablets, an archaeologist commented "It is now my belief that the story in Genesis 14 not only corresponds in content to the Ebla Tablet, but that the Genesis account derives from the same period. Briefly put, the account in Genesis 14, and also in Chapters 18-19, does not belong to the second millennium BC, still less to the first millennium BC, but rather to the third millennium BC." (4)

Some who don't believe there was a global flood say that many of the flood legends were brought by missionaries to tribes and island dwelling people but, so far, I've seen no evidence offered for this. If there is reason to believe this is true then there are some questions. First, why of all the stories in the bible, did other cultures choose to incorporate the flood story from the bible overwhelmingly over all other stories except for creation? Reverend William Ellis visited Hawaii from 1822 to 1823 and learned of different flood legends in the Hawaiian islands. He spoke with the governor of Hawaii and said "The longevity of mankind in the days of Noah, also surprised him. Comparing it with the period of human life at the present time, he said, "By and by, men will not live more than forty years." (5)

Genesis 6:3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."

Obviously this doesn’t mean every person from that point on would live to be 120 years old and life spans decreased over time. Jacob lived several centuries after the flood and died at 147 years old (Genesis 47:28). The oldest people in modern times whose ages have been documented are Shigechiyo Izumi of Japan, who lived to 120, and Jeanne Louise Calment of France who lived to 122. Some of those who’ve claimed to be the oldest living person have had their claims questioned but on the wikipedia page about Ms. Calment it says "Her lifespan has been thoroughly documented by scientific study; more records have been produced to verify her age than for any other."

The Ark

In 2003 nine members of the Korea Research Institute of Ships and Engineering published a paper called Safety Investigation of Noah’s Ark in a Seaway Their conclusion was that the ark could have navigated seas with waves higher than 30 meters. As for the statement "no tar type sealant would work to prevent leakage and eventual sinking within a few days" I doubt that is true. People have used things found in nature for building and manufacturing long before the industrial revolution and people still use natural today in different medicines.
 
1. The Hittites by Johannes Lehmann, 1977, p. 204

2. Riddle of the Exodus: Sartling Parallels Between Ancienct Jewish Sources and the Egyptian Archaeological Record by James Long, 2006, p. 8

3. Synchronized Chronology: Rethinking Middle East Antiquity by Roger Henry, p. 2

4. D. N. Freedman, in lecture "Archaeology and Biblical Religion," 1978. Quoted by C. Wilson in "Ebla Tablets ­ Secrets of a Forgotten City," Master Books, 1979, pp. 126-127
 
5. A Journal of a Tour Around Hawaii, the Largest of the Sandwich Islands by William Ellis, p. 227

Offline Operator_013

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Re: Evidence for a Global Flood
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2009, 03:05:34 PM »
For the benefit of other forum members, I have split this thread off from the thread it attempted to hijack.

I would also note that the same eight posts have appeared verbatim on another forum, and according to Forum Rule #12, "Original Content", straight copy-pastes from other sources with no additional content original to this Forum are frowned upon on this Forum. (See also Argument #413.)

I will, however, leave the thread open for the time being in case anyone is inclined to address these posts.

Thirteen
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 03:26:27 PM by Moderator_013 »
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Offline Agamemnon

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Re: Evidence for a Global Flood
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2009, 03:07:24 PM »
Hello. I've done a lot of research on this topic and have found there's a lot of evidence that a global flood happened.

Crispus, this is absurd.  No one is going to dig through all these posts and refute each and every bit of "evidence".  This thread would become absolutely huge and collapse under its own weight.

How about you try to condense these posts and turn them into a series of threads, or something.  Otherwise you're just going to get banned, because it is totally unusable information in its current state.
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Offline Cycle4Fun

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Re: Evidence for a Global Flood
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2009, 04:06:34 PM »
This thread is far to long to reply.  It would take days to go through it and refute your claims.  Break it apart into sections, and then we will tear apart your analysis bit by bit.
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Offline Max Kodan

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Re: Evidence for a Global Flood
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2009, 04:57:35 PM »
Or just link to the original source.  We shouldn't have anything to say to someone who's trying to steal someone else's work without giving so much as a link, or even a nod in their direction.  That's just dishonest, man.
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Re: Evidence for a Global Flood
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2009, 05:08:01 PM »
Crispus,

You've murdered intellectual inquiry like your father, Constatine, murdered you.

The majority of the content you posted is pseudo-scientific horseshit, typically gathered and disseminated to the less educated, and fervently religiously inclined.

It is a crime that you were taken in by this, and shame on the individuals responsible. 
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Irish

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Re: Evidence for a Global Flood
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2009, 05:53:37 PM »
Are you friggin' serious!  First of all why did you post not 1, not 2, but 8 replies, each nothing more than a plagarized wall-o-text that no one is going to wade through.  Second, the great flood as outlined in the Bible is impossible on many fronts.  Not improbable or unlikely but completely and utterly impossible.  It is just lunacy and comical that anyone even attempt to substantiate the flood claims.  A claim that has resorted to a stupid and comical state... Hermes Law.  ;)
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Re: Evidence for a Global Flood
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2009, 06:10:40 PM »
Hello. I've done a lot of research on this topic and have found there's a lot of evidence that a global flood happened. This was a response on the thread called Creation Vs. Evolution - the First Conflict; Noah's Flood but the mod must have given it's own thread.

Does research mean you went directly to creationist websites that often lie and misrepresent observed facts, for the purpose of supporting a false belief?

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Fossils on Mountains

During the fated George Mallory expedition geologist Noel Odell thought he found fossils about two thousand feet below the summit of Mt. Everest. Odell later stated that supposed fossils found in 1924 at 25,500 feet on Mt. Everest were not fossils but cone in cone structures. (1) But, fossil fragments in the fine-grained limestone from the summit of Mount Everest were brought back by Swiss explorers in 1956 and American explorers in 1963. Mt Everest and its neighboring peaks are capped by sedimentary limestone which is composed largely of calcite, the primary source of which is commonly marine organisms. Fossils that have been found in limestone beds around the world include brachiopods, ammonites, belemnites, foraminifera and radiolarians with the most common being brachiopods. Goniatite fossils, an extinct ammonite, have been found in limestone layers in Western Ireland

All of this is factually true and its not hard to find marine fossils on other mountain ranges.  However, what is important here is what exactly is being omitted.

1. Like many mountains, Mt Everest among them, the layers of sandwiched rock are split and broken exposing these layers in great formations as if the ground itself were upheaved.  If a flood was supposed to deposit these lime stone layers on pre-existing mountains, then those layers of lime stone would be uniform across the broken mountains.  However, they are not.

2. The actual fossils themselves in these lime stone layers date back as far as 200 million years, composing of various marine life that havn't existed for millions of years.  Even if you pretended that dating methods couldn't be trusted, it still wouldn't explain away the fact that a giant world flood neatly deposited layer upon layer of limestone that just happens to divide species in such a way that most can be identified as only appearing in certain layers.  Another uncomfortable fact that is left out is the shear amount of marine life required to deposit this much material, even a layer of a few feet takes deposits of marine life spanning hundreds of thousands of years.

3. The limestone itself, in its many layers, also contains other formations such as the gentle rippling of a shallow shore along a beach or even the foot steps of animal life along this ancient beach.  Not only that, but it contains gently 'rippling' shore line in layer after layer of limestone one right underneath the other.  Again, a world flood would not allow this happen since the flood would deposit this material in one sweeping go as the waters 'drained' away or 'magically' disappeared.

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indicating rapid burial and formation.

This is another vague claim that creationists hide behind.  It is not necessary that rapid bural always occur and infact we discover all kinds of fossils in various states depending on their condition when they were in a situation to become fossilized.  No two are exactly the same and it would be a grevious error to claim they all are.

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On the University of Oxford, Department of Earth Sciences website is an example of a fine-grained limestone from the summit of Gyachung Kang containing fossil fragments (see photo on the left). Gyachung Kang is about twenty miles from Everest and its summit is 26,089 feet above sea level. In an abstract of a paper about Geology of the summit limestone of Mount Everest it says “Newly discovered peloidal limestone from the summit of Mount Qomolangma (Mount Everest) contains skeletal fragments of trilobites, ostracods and crinoids" (2). Crinoids are marine animals that live in both shallow water and water as deep as 6000 meters and ostracods are small crustaceans.

Thats all very nice, but lets look at what you don't quote or cite:

"The upper part of Mt Everest is seen here from the north. The topmost strata are grey limestones that in places contain fossil fragments. Wager?s highest sample is of this limestone, from just below the NE ridge at the left-hand side of the photograph. Below this is the so-called Yellow Band, made of pale yellow-brown metamorphosed limestone. The break in metamorphic grade here marks the position of an important low-angle extensional fault ? the Qomolangma Detachment. Beneath the Yellow Band are the black schists of the Everest Series. Petrological study of Wager?s samples has shown that metamorphic temperatures reached 450?C at the base of the Yellow Band."

So lets see, different layers of limestone including metamorphosed limestone distributed amongst a broken landscape.  Not to mention the other layers that make up the geologic column.

The question here is: Why would you make it sound like all these layers are uniform or of one type of rock when they are not?

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Everest was under water at one time

Stop right there.  Everest wasn't always there and the only way to make this claim is to assume that it was, more stupifyingly.. we'd have to assume that the hundreds of feet of limestone present would have been in addition to the current height of the mountain itself - entirely ignoring the metamorphic limestone and the formation of the rock below/around it.

The only conclusion you can make is that the limestone in question was deposited in vast quantities, spanning enormeous time periods, covering changes of water levels, and the evolution of life itself to account for the differing marine fossil deposits, the different water formations in the limestone, and the fact that the landscape is broken and therefore not distributed evenly.

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and the only way fossils exist on Mt. Everest is lack of oxygen which would mean rapid mountain building and high altitude.

Again, this has nothing to do with how limestone forms or fossils found in limestone.

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Fossilization is a result of rapid burial and removal from oxygen

There are different states of fossilization that can happen in many different scenarios, it is not necessary that either of the two be present in all cases.

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Trilobites are believed by evolutionary scientists to have been extinct since the late Permian period, some 250 million years ago. Some sources say they went extinct in the late Devonian about 364 mya. At that altitude fossils may have not lasted for millions of years even with lower levels of oxygen.

The fossils would have been part of the deposit of limestone that your using the flood to explain, hence it is a no go and contradicts itself.  Not to mention where you keep repeating an obvious error with regards to fossilization.

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In an article about Mt. Everest on earthobservatory.nasa.gov it says this:

"When this land mass came close to Asia, it started to push up the land ahead of it, forming a large shallow ocean with rich ocean life. The bones and shells of the plants and animals in this shallow ocean formed limestone and left fossils. As the land mass continued to plow north and collide with Asia, the ocean was slowly raised up and drained, eventually being lifted up to form the Himalayan Mountains." (3)

This explanation is inadequate because taphonomy requires rapid burial and removal from oxygen.

Again, this conclusion does not even logically follow the citation above.  In fact, it relies on a gross misunderstanding of fossilization to the point where one has to continuously misrepresent how fossils occur in order to make some absurd association.  The only necessary discussion we need to have about taphonomy and fossilization is the manner in which 'soft tissue' becomes fossilized - which is rare and highly unique.  However, most of the marine life cited here have shells that are capable of largely being biomineralized.

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Everest was not uplifted slowly over millions of years but quickly. The question is not whether the Himalayas are still rising but what effect did the rain, sleet, hail and strong winds at 29,000 feet, and lower levels, have on limestone and fossils on Mt. Everest over 45 million years? Even with reduced oxygen it still would inhibit fossilization.

The limestone layers contain the very fossils you are talking about, by your own admission they would have formed before the rising of Everest.  I'm going to cut you off at this point because you've become so stupid its hard to tolerate.
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