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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #116 on: July 18, 2014, 09:13:50 PM »
But what if God has already hardened our hearts?

He would not. Are you referencing the Pharaoh incident? If so, Pharaoh hardened his own heart. But, this is a derailment. not the thread for this.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #117 on: July 18, 2014, 09:25:25 PM »
By the way skep, if I don't do the JC thing and end up in hell, my free will will be violated for all of eternity. With rising energy costs and stuff, wouldn't it be wiser to violate my free will now, give me the info I need to make the right god decision, and be done with it?

And of course, there is this old question: Is it free will if there is only one predetermined and correct answer. I'd rather called it forced will.

It sounds more like a simple pass/fail exam to me. It has nothing to do with freely exercising ones options. Its just a plain old trap. It isn't real, but it is designed to scare the crap out of folks and get them to fall in line with the marching band.

I don't even sign up for grocery store customer cards. Don't expect me to apply for a slot in heaven.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #118 on: July 18, 2014, 09:29:20 PM »
By the way skep, if I don't do the JC thing and end up in hell, my free will will be violated for all of eternity. With rising energy costs and stuff, wouldn't it be wiser to violate my free will now, give me the info I need to make the right god decision, and be done with it?

And of course, there is this old question: Is it free will if there is only one predetermined and correct answer. I'd rather called it forced will.

It sounds more like a simple pass/fail exam to me. It has nothing to do with freely exercising ones options. Its just a plain old trap. It isn't real, but it is designed to scare the crap out of folks and get them to fall in line with the marching band.

I don't even sign up for grocery store customer cards. Don't expect me to apply for a slot in heaven.

Yes, but you know the story of Christianity. if you don't believe, you go to hell. If it turns out you were wrong and go to hell, then you can't claim it is unfair.

I know you guys hate this analogy but if someone breaks the law and didn't know it was against the law, they still go to jail. Even if someone doesn't believe in jail, they will still go there.

Who's fault is it if someone ends up in jail? Yours or the people who built the jail?
Darn it, another digression. This topic is just going all over the place.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Timo

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #119 on: July 18, 2014, 09:34:02 PM »
But, the point is that some people DO believe it without requiring first hand direct in-your-face proof.

Why would God "feel sorry" (so to speak) for the ones who don't believe?

It's not about anyone feeling sorry for anyone.  It's about fairness.  If God's plan is to give people different amounts of evidence and then judge them according to the same standard He's either unjust or unreasonable.

Or put another way, what do you think happens to those of us who don't accept Christ when we die?

He would not. Are you referencing the Pharaoh incident? If so, Pharaoh hardened his own heart. But, this is a derailment. not the thread for this.

It's sort of off topic, but not really.  Plus, I don't think it would warrant a new thread.  I think you're obviously wrong.  It's in the plain text, my dude.  God hardens Pharaoh's heart:

Quote from: The LORD Thy God
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. [Exodus 9:12]

That's the King James.  I'm not aware of any translation that doesn't put God as the cause of Pharaoh's heart being hardened.  And in any case, Paul felt the need to grapple with the implications of a plain reading of that text.

Quote from: Paul
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[Romans 9:15-20]
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #120 on: July 18, 2014, 09:38:25 PM »
By the way skep, if I don't do the JC thing and end up in hell, my free will will be violated for all of eternity. With rising energy costs and stuff, wouldn't it be wiser to violate my free will now, give me the info I need to make the right god decision, and be done with it?

And of course, there is this old question: Is it free will if there is only one predetermined and correct answer. I'd rather called it forced will.

It sounds more like a simple pass/fail exam to me. It has nothing to do with freely exercising ones options. Its just a plain old trap. It isn't real, but it is designed to scare the crap out of folks and get them to fall in line with the marching band.

I don't even sign up for grocery store customer cards. Don't expect me to apply for a slot in heaven.

Yes, but you know the story of Christianity. if you don't believe, you go to hell. If it turns out you were wrong and go to hell, then you can't claim it is unfair.

I know you guys hate this analogy but if someone breaks the law and didn't know it was against the law, they still go to jail. Even if someone doesn't believe in jail, they will still go there.

Who's fault is it if someone ends up in jail? Yours or the people who built the jail?
Darn it, another digression. This topic is just going all over the place.

Its hard to stay on topic when there is so much to talk about. We usually don't worry about threads drifting unless someone is changing the subject to avoid the topic at hand. But we'll try this one later.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #121 on: July 18, 2014, 09:49:58 PM »
Perhaps I just opened the door and let Jesus in?

From your description of blood on a wall and flying plates, I would not say you had a free choice. What was it you accepted which no one else believes?

I understand the importance of free will. This is very confusing.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #122 on: July 18, 2014, 10:45:28 PM »
Sidebar, do you think it's fair that God conditions salvation on belief in Christ given that some of us only have the Bible and a set of imperfect messengers when a generation of Judeans witnessed Christ's ministry and miracles first hand?  Isn't it easier for such people to have believed and therefor unfair of God to hold us to the same standard?

But, the point is that some people DO believe it without requiring first hand direct in-your-face proof.

Why would God "feel sorry" (so to speak) for the ones who don't believe?

Because people who believe, by definition, got from god exactly the information/experience/message/whatever, that they needed in order to believe. For some of them it was first hand direct in-your-face proof--god himself showed up and said hello. For others it was a healed doggie or a baby cured of "incurable" cancer, or a lotto ticket that paid out a million dollars right before foreclosure, or a near death experience where they saw someone they thought was Jesus in the operating room. Any of those experiences could be interpreted differently, but for those people it was sufficient evidence for god.

Those who do not believe, by definition, did not get from god exactly the information/experience/message/whatever they needed in order to believe. Otherwise, they would believe!

They might have had all of the above experiences, but not once did it occur to them that there was a god behind any of it. The baby was one of the lucky 2% whose cancer went into remission. Someone's ticket has to win the lotto, and lots of people have been near to losing their homes, so it is very likely that the two events will happen together once in a while. Nobody knows what Jesus looked like, and people's brains do all kinds of things under anesthesia or when close to death-- it might have been a Sikh technician with a beard who was the last face the person saw before they went under and dreamed they saw Jesus. So none of that stuff would be enough to give them faith, and god already knows that.

If god shows up in front of you, irrefutably the one true god, how could anyone not believe? Given that, why does he not just show up? That is all any atheist is asking. Minimally, god needs to show up. but, chances are good that he will not and most of us will die unbelievers. Again, whose fault will that be?

It is as if god gives some people just what they need (like the entry code or secret password to the "faith website") but does not give it to others. Or in the case of other religions, he hands over a fake password, or gives demons a fake one to hand out.[1]

And then, he is going to punish all the people who did not access the "faith website" correctly. Even though he knew that without the right password, they would never be able to access it.

And this is fair, just, loving, caring and kind, how?

Anyway you look at it, unless you already have the god glasses on, god comes off badly. He is at best, an arrogant Professor Snape type who enjoys rewarding the few who learn  quickly,  while holding back knowledge from the rest so he can watch the ignorant squirm in terror before him. At worst, he is Pol Pot or the North Korean dictator, torturing people to death for not marching straight enough, giving out meat to half the people, letting the others eat only grass soup, and letting a lucky few share his caviar and take luxury trips on his yacht. :P

 1. This seems particularly d!ckish, to let fake gods and demons appear to be him, knowing how many millions will fall for it. Hell for them. So sad, too bad.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #123 on: July 20, 2014, 01:14:24 AM »
From your description of blood on a wall and flying plates, I would not say you had a free choice. What was it you accepted which no one else believes?

Good point there. I can not tell you why I saw what I saw. I can only tell you that I saw it. That is why no matter how much logic & reason gets thrown at me by the atheists, I will always know what I saw. No refutations can make me unsee it.

If you guys don't believe me, then so be it. What more can I do, honestly?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #124 on: July 20, 2014, 01:17:54 AM »
Its hard to stay on topic when there is so much to talk about. We usually don't worry about threads drifting unless someone is changing the subject to avoid the topic at hand. But we'll try this one later.

If you do not think that is a derailment, then by all means, please refute it.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #125 on: July 20, 2014, 01:48:27 AM »
you did say you were on drugs before you came a theist, so from Occam's razor to explain the blood on the wall....
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #126 on: July 20, 2014, 02:01:27 AM »
you did say you were on drugs before you came a theist, so from Occam's razor to explain the blood on the wall....

Wasn't on drugs at that time. I wasn't high 24/7 non-stop.

I would know the difference, trust me. I was sober.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #127 on: July 20, 2014, 04:00:36 AM »
But what if God has already hardened our hearts?

He would not. Are you referencing the Pharaoh incident? If so, Pharaoh hardened his own heart. But, this is a derailment. not the thread for this.

Skep,

God hates people like you who distort His Words. God has already condemned you to Hell for this blasphemy. You say that Pharaoh hardened his heart himself and that the miracle done by God, was neither a miracle or done by God?

Ex:7:8: And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
Ex:7:9: When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Shew a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent.
Ex:7:10: And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
Ex:7:11: Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
Ex:7:12: For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
Ex:7:13: And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
Ex:7:14: And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.[/b]


Skep, I suggest that, you read, mark learn and inwardly digest the following infallible scripture:

Re:2:2: I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Re:21:8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


It's not me who's saying this Skep, it is God. It seems your soul is damned for all eternity. Perhaps you were serving Satan all along?

Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #128 on: July 20, 2014, 05:10:29 AM »
How did Christianity start? Religion first came about when we as a species were first able to forecast our own death, when we realised that we would not live for ever. An eternal death doesn't sit well with many of us, so in the early times of us being self aware, we started searching for ways round this.
'Hmm, the big yellow thing in the sky makes our food grow. But every so often it gets weak, our food stops growing. Maybe if we build fires to warm the big yellow thing it'll get stronger and keep our food growing? Also, the big yellow thing doesn't die like we do? Maybe if we please it, the big yellow thing will not let us die? Actually, the big yellow thing seems to allow us to live; maybe it chooses when we die?

And so began the tradition of burning things or singing songs or dancing in a certain way to help us overcome death. All religions are death cults, Christianity is no exception. Skep; you sing your songs, you say your magic words, you perform your magic rituals, all to defeat death. I'm sorry mate, it's not going to work. This is your only life.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #129 on: July 20, 2014, 05:16:52 AM »
skeptic54768, in your own words, what does Occam's razor state?

Still waiting for an answer to this.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline Airyaman

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #130 on: July 20, 2014, 06:20:36 AM »
But what if God has already hardened our hearts?

He would not. Are you referencing the Pharaoh incident? If so, Pharaoh hardened his own heart. But, this is a derailment. not the thread for this.

Skep,

God hates people like you who distort His Words. God has already condemned you to Hell for this blasphemy. You say that Pharaoh hardened his heart himself and that the miracle done by God, was neither a miracle or done by God?

Ex:7:8: And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
Ex:7:9: When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Shew a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent.
Ex:7:10: And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
Ex:7:11: Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
Ex:7:12: For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
Ex:7:13: And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
Ex:7:14: And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.[/b]


Skep, I suggest that, you read, mark learn and inwardly digest the following infallible scripture:

Re:2:2: I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Re:21:8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


It's not me who's saying this Skep, it is God. It seems your soul is damned for all eternity. Perhaps you were serving Satan all along?

Rom 9:18  So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

All you need to know. Obviously, we atheists have been hardened, if he is real.
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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #131 on: July 20, 2014, 06:46:50 AM »
From your description of blood on a wall and flying plates, I would not say you had a free choice. What was it you accepted which no one else believes?

Good point there. I can not tell you why I saw what I saw. I can only tell you that I saw it. That is why no matter how much logic & reason gets thrown at me by the atheists, I will always know what I saw. No refutations can make me unsee it.

If you guys don't believe me, then so be it. What more can I do, honestly?

Exactly. You have taken something you can't explain and assumed that Christianity had something to do with it. Strange things and demons don't prove Christianity.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #132 on: July 20, 2014, 09:51:06 AM »
From your description of blood on a wall and flying plates, I would not say you had a free choice. What was it you accepted which no one else believes?

Good point there. I can not tell you why I saw what I saw. I can only tell you that I saw it. That is why no matter how much logic & reason gets thrown at me by the atheists, I will always know what I saw. No refutations can make me unsee it.

If you guys don't believe me, then so be it. What more can I do, honestly?

Let's say I do believe you say the bloody words, etc. Again, that was just the right evidence that you needed to convince you of god, Christianity, etc. Were you devoutly praying for a sign, with an open heart and in all abject sincerity? Evidently not--you say you were an atheist drug using fornicating sinner.

Yet, god knew what evidence would convince you, and he gave it to you. You were worth god's time and attention. You rate. Congratulations. For the rest of us atheist drug using fornicating sinners, he has decided that we don't rate, so he will not give us the evidence that we need to be convinced. Because if he had given us the evidence that we need, we would also be convinced. We would not be atheists.

The ball remains in god's court. How could we outsmart god, if he wanted to convince us of his presence? That is what puzzles me-- the way religious people say that god can do anything, and then try to make us atheists out to be able to resist, deny and overcome god's power, somehow. Without even exerting much effort. It's not like we spend 24/7 actively forcing ourselves not to believe in god. Most of the time we don't even think about it. We don't have to actively work at not believing in Godzilla, King Kong, Frankenstein, fairies, elves, ghosts or mermaids. They are not real. Same with gods.

The buck, once again stops with god. He wants us, he knows where to find us.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Timo

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #133 on: July 20, 2014, 01:26:53 PM »
Its hard to stay on topic when there is so much to talk about. We usually don't worry about threads drifting unless someone is changing the subject to avoid the topic at hand. But we'll try this one later.

If you do not think that is a derailment, then by all means, please refute it.

I'm very rarely confident enough to say this.  He won't refute my point.  You won't refute my point.  I'm very clearly right.  You're very clearly wrong.
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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #134 on: July 20, 2014, 03:48:57 PM »
Well, if someone saw Jesus rise from the dead, then it must be true.  When someone sees something, or remembers seeing something, it is always true. 

However, as this makes another round on facebook, I find myself believing in the superior divinity of chocolate. 


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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #135 on: July 21, 2014, 03:33:01 AM »
Skep; why is Christianity true? Why do you think this god exists and that singing songs, abstaining from some foods and burning candles will please him?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #136 on: July 21, 2014, 07:21:23 AM »
How was your free will not violated, and why would mine be if he did the same thing to me?

I always heard it being put like this:

Jesus is knocking on the door, but you have to open the door and let Him in. Jesus isn't going to kick the door down and break in to you.

Perhaps I just opened the door and let Jesus in?


Jesus may be knocking at the door and one could consider that a good effort if one wants to  believe that.  But let me liven up the scenario a bit.  Jesus is walking down the street and sees a building on fire, he quietly knocks on the door and then walks away and said "I tried but one answered my knocking, so to hell with them let them burn"

Life and death hangs in the balance and Jesus thinks it is ok to simply knock?  What about ringing the bell, banging on the door, yelling and attempting to pry it open?  PS what would be wrong with breaking down the door???

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #137 on: July 21, 2014, 07:34:45 AM »
How was your free will not violated, and why would mine be if he did the same thing to me?

I always heard it being put like this:

Jesus is knocking on the door, but you have to open the door and let Him in. Jesus isn't going to kick the door down and break in to you.

Perhaps I just opened the door and let Jesus in?


Jesus may be knocking at the door and one could consider that a good effort if one wants to  believe that.  But let me liven up the scenario a bit.  Jesus is walking down the street and sees a building on fire, he quietly knocks on the door and then walks away and said "I tried but one answered my knocking, so to hell with them let them burn"

Life and death hangs in the balance and Jesus thinks it is ok to simply knock?  What about ringing the bell, banging on the door, yelling and attempting to pry it open?  PS what would be wrong with breaking down the door???

Exactly. Biblegod either gives us evidence for his existence or he doesn't. There's no 'half evidence'. If this god existed, why would he faff around with whispers? If he wants a relationship with us then best he make himself known.
I was discussing Christianity with my Christian father-in-law and was pointing out to him that the invisibleness of Biblegod should be evidence enough that it's all imaginary when he snorted; "What? Do you expect God to appear before you?!" To which I replied; "Yes. Yes I do. There is absolutely no reason that this all powerful being couldn't do that or wouldn't do that."
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #138 on: July 21, 2014, 08:22:34 AM »
When people say "you have to be open to Jesus knocking", Skeptic, is this roughly what they mean?

- You pray for god to show himself to you and a week later you're jogging through the park and see a rainbow and it's beautiful and you feel some emotion for the beauty of the scene.

- You pray to god to give you an answer and you're driving down the highway and a christian church has put up a billboard that says "I am real - God".

- You pray to Jesus to meet a partner, you join a dating site, join volunteer organizations, ask girls out, go on 20 dates, and finally meet someone.

- You pray to Jesus for a new job, you craft a resume, send it to 100 places, go on 10 interviews, get 5 referrals, and eventually get a temp to hire job for six months.

- You pray to Jesus to give you wisdom and, in your delivery of General Tso's Chicken, the fortune cookie says, "Cherish your friends and family every day."

- You have a sick dog who might die.  Using low level technology, a vet which isn't trained in everything thinks he sees cancer.   You pray to Jesus for the dog instead of for the sick kids with bone cancer in the hospital, and Jesus heals the dog, which then goes on to live for another six months before dying of old age or kidney failure.

- You pray for Jesus to come into your life in a meaningful way while sitting in church.  You look depressed and people around you can tell that by looking at you.  A girl walks over and says, "Jesus loves you!  He told me to tell you that!"


Are these the ways we need to take as proof that Jesus is real?   Would all of the above things be "how god talks to us"?

Or is it something more concrete than that?

You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #139 on: July 21, 2014, 09:10:58 AM »
From your description of blood on a wall and flying plates, I would not say you had a free choice. What was it you accepted which no one else believes?

Good point there. I can not tell you why I saw what I saw. I can only tell you that I saw it. That is why no matter how much logic & reason gets thrown at me by the atheists, I will always know what I saw. No refutations can make me unsee it.

If you guys don't believe me, then so be it. What more can I do, honestly?
Skeptic it was Demons,they did all those things,you just can't see it. The Demons even have YOU fooled. That or your a "special little lamb" and God chose you to come tell us the good word.......my money is on Demons
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #140 on: July 21, 2014, 11:28:39 AM »
skeptic, could you respond to the claim that god gave you (and every other believer) what you needed to become a believer, but decided not to give us (and every unbeliever) what we needed to become believers?

Everything is part of god's plan, so having 5 or 10 or 20% atheists on the planet is also part of god's plan, right? And having demons tricking a few billion more people into following false religions is also a part of god's plan. And having a bunch of people with the genetic or environmental tendencies to be gay or sociopaths or drug addicts or just too damn rational to believe in anything magical or supernatural is also part of his plan, no?

According to what you have said, all of these people are in danger of going to hell.

Explain to me how creating a world where a majority of the people who have every lived burn in hell forever, while saving a special tiny minority, makes for a good plan? This is the Finding Nemo school of running a universe--of all the millions of eggs, only little Nemo makes it out alive.

Explain to me how a being who does this is worthy of love or worship? Yeah, he made the universe and gave us all life, but abusive or neglectful or psychotically insane parents do not deserve their children's love or devotion--no matter how wealthy, powerful or occasionally indulgent they are.[1]
 1. If he is real, I can understand cowering in abject terror of him, since he is like Stalin on steroids. But no way could I love him or worship him.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline median

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #141 on: July 21, 2014, 03:03:52 PM »

I guess I can not prove Jesus to you. What evidence would you accept, anyway? Would you have to feel his nail marks like Thomas? Is that the only thing that can possibly prove Jesus to you?

I am sorry I can not do that.  :(

Well, you've proven to yourself that he's real. Your whole life is devoted to it.

So, you're basically saying that your lifestyle, how you define yourself as a person (your outlook, etc) is devoted to something that even you cannot prove exists.

And you want to convince others that it's a real thing even though you can't prove it? Do you not see how insane that is?

E.

Now that is very interesting. I feel like God has proven Himself to me though. I am truly sorry I can't duplicate the experience for you.i wish I could. I do wish the Lord would come down and make you a believer. but, at the same time I understand the importance of free will. This is very confusing.

I had a debate with a Christian this past weekend down at Balboa Park in San Diego. He used this same line of reasoning ("I can't prove it to you but I had an experience with Jesus and I know it's true"). The thing is, even if this were true it would not throw out rational thinking and logic. That is to say, you cannot first assume that you had an "experience with Jesus" and then use that as a justification for spinning or rationalizing the clearly irrational and erroneous claims within the bible. The two simply don't go together by default. But the problem is, this is exactly what Christians such as yourself do. You have an alleged experience (which you could be mistaken about - as other religions are). You self-diagnose that experience as "Jesus". And then you instantly accept all of the irrational nonsense that is found in that book. This is really no different from what every other religion on the planet does (claiming that b/c you had a 'experience', or b/c your life was changed that that makes your conclusions true). But it doesn't. You are throwing out your skeptical mind (selectively), when you do that, in order to find comfort. But when experiences or changed lives do not line up with critical thinking, we should be skeptical of our interpretations and self-diagnosis (since we know humans are often in error about such things). So that method isn't a reliable method for separating fact from fiction. That kind of confirmation bias is a sure fire way to be deceived.

Good point there. I can not tell you why I saw what I saw. I can only tell you that I saw it. That is why no matter how much logic & reason gets thrown at me by the atheists, I will always know what I saw. No refutations can make me unsee it.If you guys don't believe me, then so be it. What more can I do, honestly?


What you can do is consistently apply your critical thinking and skepticism to a situation that you cannot explain (which would mean admitting agnosticism instead of making unwarranted assumptions).
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 03:19:08 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #142 on: July 21, 2014, 03:48:15 PM »

I guess I can not prove Jesus to you. What evidence would you accept, anyway? Would you have to feel his nail marks like Thomas? Is that the only thing that can possibly prove Jesus to you?

I am sorry I can not do that.  :(

Well, you've proven to yourself that he's real. Your whole life is devoted to it.

So, you're basically saying that your lifestyle, how you define yourself as a person (your outlook, etc) is devoted to something that even you cannot prove exists.

And you want to convince others that it's a real thing even though you can't prove it? Do you not see how insane that is?

E.

Now that is very interesting. I feel like God has proven Himself to me though. I am truly sorry I can't duplicate the experience for you.i wish I could. I do wish the Lord would come down and make you a believer. but, at the same time I understand the importance of free will. This is very confusing.

I had a debate with a Christian this past weekend down at Balboa Park in San Diego. He used this same line of reasoning ("I can't prove it to you but I had an experience with Jesus and I know it's true"). The thing is, even if this were true it would not throw out rational thinking and logic. That is to say, you cannot first assume that you had an "experience with Jesus" and then use that as a justification for spinning or rationalizing the clearly irrational and erroneous claims within the bible. The two simply don't go together by default. But the problem is, this is exactly what Christians such as yourself do. You have an alleged experience (which you could be mistaken about - as other religions are). You self-diagnose that experience as "Jesus". And then you instantly accept all of the irrational nonsense that is found in that book. This is really no different from what every other religion on the planet does (claiming that b/c you had a 'experience', or b/c your life was changed that that makes your conclusions true). But it doesn't. You are throwing out your skeptical mind (selectively), when you do that, in order to find comfort. But when experiences or changed lives do not line up with critical thinking, we should be skeptical of our interpretations and self-diagnosis (since we know humans are often in error about such things). So that method isn't a reliable method for separating fact from fiction. That kind of confirmation bias is a sure fire way to be deceived.

Good point there. I can not tell you why I saw what I saw. I can only tell you that I saw it. That is why no matter how much logic & reason gets thrown at me by the atheists, I will always know what I saw. No refutations can make me unsee it.If you guys don't believe me, then so be it. What more can I do, honestly?


What you can do is consistently apply your critical thinking and skepticism to a situation that you cannot explain (which would mean admitting agnosticism instead of making unwarranted assumptions).


And Median, if someone has a personal relationship with Jesus, why can't they ask him questions and get answers?     Can they explain to me the things in my life that caused me to realize my 'faith' was a delusion?    Can they explain why Jesus chose to heal a sick dog instead of letting someone's dying child have a solid chance at a long life or prevented children from starving?

Why can't any of these people who have a relationship with Jesus use that relationship to provide new information to anyone else?

If Jesus is a "different thing" than our own mind, why doesn't this relationship provide new information that you couldn't have received any other way, the same way every other relationship does?
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #143 on: July 21, 2014, 06:52:25 PM »
^^^^Yep.

A relationship with Jesus has the exact same effect on a person's life as a relationship with Allah, Brahma, Shango or Papa Legba. According to skeptic, it is impossible for a person to tell if they have a relationship with Jesus or a relationship with a demon pretending to be Jesus. Other gods and demons cure people of addictions, save marriages, prevent houses from catching fire, locate lost dogs and heal cancer at the same exact rate as Jesus. Even Lukvance says that other beings besides the Catholic god answer prayers and perform miracles.[1]

What no theist can tell us is how someone is supposed to know for sure what fixed the problem. Was it prayer to Jesus, prayer to a different god, a demon, an alien or random chance? Every religion can produce their experts, priests, theologians and all have believers who say it was their god. But they cannot say how they know. They all expect you to have faith..... &)
 1. Interesting that none of these beings ever grow back amputated arms or legs.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #144 on: July 21, 2014, 07:32:51 PM »
Median, how has Skeptic come to the Jesus conclusion without first ruling our demons either posing as Jesus or leaving him to conclude Jesus without analysis first?  Without Skeptic doing self analysis he can't rule out demon deception.  Skeptic, of course jumped to the conclusion of Jesus. Skeptic could be spreading a false gospel for demons because he failed to actually be well....... skeptical, how is that for irony?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)