Author Topic: High rates of atheism: low crime, higher pay, better health and education  (Read 31199 times)

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Offline Hermes

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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9vc7v7em_4[/youtube]

Phil Zuckerman has written a couple books that go over the statistical data showing that godless societies tend to do very very well;

“Based on a careful assessment of the most recent survey data available, we find that somewhere between 500,000,000 and 750,000,000 humans currently do not believe in God. Such figures render any suggestion that theism is innate or neurologically based untenable… High levels of organic atheism are strongly correlated with high levels of societal health, such as low homicide rates, low poverty rates, low infant mortality rates, and low illiteracy rates, as well as high levels of educational attainment, per capita income, and gender equality. Most nations characterized by high degrees of individual and societal security have the highest rates of organic atheism, and conversely, nations characterized by low degrees of individual and societal security have the lowest rates of organic atheism.” — Phil Zuckerman

In his latest, he even investigated the country and interviewed the people of Denmark to see what makes them stand out as a highly successful society.

Society without God: What the Least Religious Nations Can Tell Us About Contentment
http://www.amazon.com/Society-without-God-Religious-Contentment/dp/0814797148/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225283258&sr=1-1




Additional resources: Where to look for data on crime rates, religiosity, and other population data;

General statistics on regional populations
International - http://www.nationmaster.com
USA only - http://www.statemaster.com

International religious statistics
http://adherents.com

U.S. Religious Landscape Survey
http://religions.pewforum.org

United Nations: Statistics of the Human Development Report
http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

Vision of Humanity

World Values Survey



Edit: Added Additional Resources links.   Added UN HDR.  Added Vision of Humanity and World Values Survey.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 06:54:30 AM by Hermes »
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Offline Hermes

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Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2008, 10:37:01 AM »
Why do I care about religion?

Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCeK2EcE_qI[/youtube]

Title: Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health
with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies
Source: Journal of Religion and Society
Author: Gregory S. Paul
Link: http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

Partial excerpt;

Quote
[18] In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies (Figures 1-9). The most theistic prosperous democracy, the U.S., is exceptional, but not in the manner Franklin predicted. The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developed democracies, sometimes spectacularly so, and almost always scores poorly. The view of the U.S. as a “shining city on the hill” to the rest of the world is falsified when it comes to basic measures of societal health. Youth suicide is an exception to the general trend because there is not a significant relationship between it and religious or secular factors. No democracy is known to have combined strong religiosity and popular denial of evolution with high rates of societal health. Higher rates of non-theism and acceptance of human evolution usually correlate with lower rates of dysfunction, and the least theistic nations are usually the least dysfunctional. None of the strongly secularized, pro-evolution democracies is experiencing high levels of measurable dysfunction. In some cases the highly religious U.S. is an outlier in terms of societal dysfunction from less theistic but otherwise socially comparable secular developed democracies. In other cases, the correlations are strongly graded, sometimes outstandingly so.


Edit: Updated video link.  Older (better) version went away.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 09:39:21 AM by Hermes »
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Irish

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Re: Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2008, 10:50:55 AM »
Outstanding Hermes!  That is simply outstanding.  Everytime a theist states I'm immoral I'm going to point them to this article.... maybe DoC should have a look  ;)
La scienze non ha nemici ma gli ignoranti.

Offline JTW

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Re: Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2008, 12:25:11 PM »
Here's an easy one for you. Is it the theists causing all the immorality or the non-theists?

Offline Hermes

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Re: Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2008, 12:28:24 PM »
Here's an easy one for you. Is it the theists causing all the immorality or the non-theists?

What I posted covers nations.  Want to re-phrase your question?
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline JTW

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Re: Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2008, 12:29:58 PM »
Right, so it has absolutely nothing to do with theism. That's just coincidence.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2008, 12:31:46 PM »
So you don't want to clarify your question to make it meaningful.  Gotcha.

Besides, I guess you can write off the results of any statistical study as coincidence if you have enough faith.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline JTW

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Re: Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2008, 12:37:00 PM »
But the study is on nations. That's what it states. It's not on the people. Why not find out who's causing the immorality.

Generally what you'll find is that the freer the nation, the more immoral it is.

Offline Hermes

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Re: Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2008, 12:38:52 PM »
But the study is on nations. That's what it states. It's not on the people. Why not find out who's causing the immorality.

Generally what you'll find is that the freer the nation, the more immoral it is.

Back that statement up.  Use facts.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline JTW

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Re: Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2008, 12:40:03 PM »
You backed it up with your OP.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2008, 12:42:14 PM »
More religion means more freedom?   ???
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline JTW

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Re: Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2008, 12:43:11 PM »
State freedom. Freedom OF religion.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2008, 12:45:46 PM »
The OP did not make any statements about freedom of religion.  Try again.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline JTW

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Re: Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2008, 12:50:44 PM »
Try again what? I said freer nations are freer nations. That includes freedom of religion.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2008, 12:53:40 PM »
No.  You said freer nations are more immoral.  When Hermes challenged you on this, you cited the OP.  But the OP did not mention freedom, either in general or of religion.  So the OP doesn't back up our assertion.  So, I said try again.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Hermes

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Re: Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2008, 12:54:41 PM »
You backed it up with your OP.

Spell it out for me.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Hermes

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Re: Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2008, 12:55:34 PM »
No.  You said freer nations are more immoral.  When Hermes challenged you on this, you cited the OP.  But the OP did not mention freedom, either in general or of religion.  So the OP doesn't back up our assertion.  So, I said try again.

Exactly.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline JTW

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Re: Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2008, 12:56:54 PM »
It depends on whether you believe the US to be constitutionally free nation, or at least in comparison to other nations. Do you?

Offline Hermes

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Re: Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2008, 01:05:56 PM »
It depends on whether you believe the US to be constitutionally free nation, or at least in comparison to other nations. Do you?

Belief has nothing to do with it.  Can you support your contention or not?
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Frank

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Re: Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2008, 02:44:28 PM »
It depends on whether you believe the US to be constitutionally free nation, or at least in comparison to other nations. Do you?

No I do not. Americans are no more free than the populations of any other democracy. 
"Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions fall away, atheism is what is left behind".

Offline JTW

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Re: Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2008, 02:51:38 PM »
It depends on whether you believe the US to be constitutionally free nation, or at least in comparison to other nations. Do you?

Belief has nothing to do with it.  Can you support your contention or not?

As long as the US is a constitutionally free nation your opening post proves that free nations have high immorality rates.

Offline Vynn

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Re: Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2008, 03:04:27 PM »
JTW, you should ask god to help you make more sense.

Offline Hermes

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Re: Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2008, 04:02:42 PM »
It depends on whether you believe the US to be constitutionally free nation, or at least in comparison to other nations. Do you?

Belief has nothing to do with it.  Can you support your contention or not?

As long as the US is a constitutionally free nation your opening post proves that free nations have high immorality rates.

So, you're saying the USA has higher levels of freedom and this is why it scored worse than other countries in the survey? 

Is this your position?




Edit: Re-wrote sentence ... hopefully it doesn't confuse George or anyone else now.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 09:25:55 PM by Hermes »
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Airyaman

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Re: Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2008, 08:46:08 PM »
If you are following God why can I still see you?

Offline Hermes

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Re: Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2008, 09:26:53 PM »
Sorry.  How does it look now?
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Airyaman

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Re: Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2008, 09:47:34 PM »
Not you, JTW's constant dodges.
If you are following God why can I still see you?

Offline kevyrat69

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Re: Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2008, 05:20:58 AM »
Ummm JTW please be a smart man for a bit and think with logic about this or at least copy and paste something that will make sense.

Hermes is being very polite and kind and he isn't yelling the f word but then theists only do that. ::)
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Offline Hermes

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Re: Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2008, 09:00:18 AM »
JTW, I take it because you have not responded that you concede the following;

1. More faithful nations are less moral.

2. Freedom is roughly equivalent in the nations surveyed.

3. Your contention that freedom leads to crime is not supported by the surveys.


I could actually make an argument that in the case of the USA, actual freedoms has been on the decline in the USA for years in comparison to other countries but I won't make that claim as to back it up would take a bit of effort that you aren't willing to reciprocate.

It depends on whether you believe the US to be constitutionally free nation, or at least in comparison to other nations. Do you?

Belief has nothing to do with it.  Can you support your contention or not?

As long as the US is a constitutionally free nation your opening post proves that free nations have high immorality rates.

So, you're saying the USA has higher levels of freedom and this is why it scored worse than other countries in the survey? 

Is this your position?




Edit: Re-wrote sentence ... hopefully it doesn't confuse George or anyone else now.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Whitney

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Re: Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2008, 09:09:29 PM »
I did a paper on this article a couple years ago for a Philosophy class.  I really hope they refine their research methods a bit more and do the study again, it has met some criticism (search that journal for more recent articles related to that study).

Anyway, the findings don't surprise me.  Faith based morality is only as strong as that person's faith.  Actually understanding morality provides a firm foundation.