Poll

No rapture or second comming? (see 1st post)

Yes.  Here's a reference for the second coming... (please post)
1 (10%)
Yes.  Here's a reference for the rapture... (please post)
1 (10%)
Yes.  Here's a reference for both... (please post)
0 (0%)
I don't know, but I believe the interpretations after 1800 concerning the second comming.
1 (10%)
I don't know, but I believe the interpretations after 1800 concerning the rapture.
0 (0%)
I don't know, but I believe the interpretations after 1800 concerning both.
0 (0%)
No.  That's curious, I'll have to investigate that on my own.
2 (20%)
No.  I'm not curious about that.
2 (20%)
No.  I've investigated that, and here's what I found ... (please post)
0 (0%)
'They're creepy and they're kooky, mysterious and spooky, ... Adam's family.'
1 (10%)
You shal not mock the LORD thigh God!  (Or give a ribbing to Adam and mock by proxy The LORD thigh God.)
2 (20%)

Total Members Voted: 8

Author Topic: No rapture or second comming? (see 1st post)  (Read 1524 times)

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Offline Hermes

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No rapture or second comming? (see 1st post)
« on: October 12, 2008, 05:27:54 PM »
This is a poll for Christians, based on the following question;

Before the year 1800, are there any extra-Biblical comments recorded about 'the second coming of Jesus Christ' or 'the rapture' by anyone?

Note that I'm *specifically not* asking about Bible passages or comments made after the year 1800.

Full disclosure: The reference that prompted this question and the poll; http://velocityinversion.blogspot.com/2008/10/sunday-blasphemy_12.html



Some cheap humor for non-Christians tied into the last couple questions in the poll.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL_9zdu4iVw[/youtube]
« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 05:30:40 AM by Hermes »
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

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Offline Sleeping Shadow

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Re: Advanced question for serious Christians only... (see 1st post)
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2008, 06:32:15 PM »
Yeah, the Rapture's a load of crap. So is the Trinity.

Offline Hermes

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Re: No rapture or second comming? (see 1st post)
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2008, 05:31:06 AM »
*retitled & bumped*
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Hermes

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Re: No rapture or second comming? (see 1st post)
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2008, 05:39:07 PM »
I'm seeing no responses or votes from Christians.

Does that mean that Christians have no response?
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline JTW

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Re: No rapture or second comming? (see 1st post)
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2008, 06:54:58 PM »
Rev. 19:11-16

Offline Azdgari

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Re: No rapture or second comming? (see 1st post)
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2008, 07:13:02 PM »
Extra-biblical, JTW.  He underlined it and everything.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline JTW

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Re: No rapture or second comming? (see 1st post)
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2008, 07:18:53 PM »
Oh, snap. lol

I thought he just wanted reasons.

Offline Hermes

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Re: No rapture or second comming? (see 1st post)
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2008, 08:09:56 PM »
Oh, snap. lol

 ;D[bseg] ;D  That's OK ... just take more B vitamins!

I just think it's interesting that two major aspects of what I considered Christianity weren't even around before 1830.  As the blog entry could have been in error, I thought it would be a good way of shaking out those error(s) by asking what Christians thought.


For reference, here's the text from the blog post I linked to in the OP;

Quote
Sunday Blasphemy

Rapture...

Rapture is not mentioned in ANY christian writings until after the year 1830. Not one syllable written in Greek or Latin, Armenian or Coptic, Syrian or Ethiopian, English or German, orthodox or heretic.

Rapture as we know it today was created by John Nelson Darby in 1830. Darby, known as the father of dispensationalism, a doctrine claiming there were not one, but two "second comings." His church was so impressed with his new fangled interpretation they called it unbiblical. Samuel P Tregelles, a biblical scholar at that time called dispensationalism]=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism]dispensationalism, "height of speculative nonsense."

From what I have read, I agree with Sam. It is a very complicated circular argument intended to remind christians that they are indeed a doomsday cult.

http://velocityinversion.blogspot.com/2008/10/sunday-blasphemy_12.html
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline kevyrat69

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Re: No rapture or second comming? (see 1st post)
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2008, 02:43:23 AM »
This I got from wikipedia and just thought I would share it.

The nations of the world must unify their currency onto a universal standard.
There will be peace in Israel (Ezekiel 38).
There will be a one-world government, to correspond to the 7th beast of Revelation, prior to the Antichrist's 8th beast government.
The Jewish temple in Jerusalem must be rebuilt in its original place.
Observance of Old Testament commandments concerning animal sacrifices must be reinstated.
There will be a great falling away and the Antichrist will be revealed. 2 Thessalonians 2

These things must happen I guess in order for Jesus to return.  Hmmm.... I think christians will do everything in there power to make these things happen then say see???  We told you this will happen.  Animal sacrifices??? Come on this stuff is terrible!!!
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

whatever people are experiencing when they experience God, it's not something they're perceiving in the external world. It's something their brains are making up.
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Offline Goodkat

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Re: No rapture or second comming? (see 1st post)
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2008, 01:36:09 PM »
This I got from wikipedia and just thought I would share it.

The nations of the world must unify their currency onto a universal standard.
There will be peace in Israel (Ezekiel 38).
There will be a one-world government
, to correspond to the 7th beast of Revelation, prior to the Antichrist's 8th beast government.
The Jewish temple in Jerusalem must be rebuilt in its original place.
Observance of Old Testament commandments concerning animal sacrifices must be reinstated.

There will be a great falling away and the Antichrist will be revealed. 2 Thessalonians 2

These things must happen I guess in order for Jesus to return.  Hmmm.... I think christians will do everything in there power to make these things happen then say see???  We told you this will happen.  Animal sacrifices??? Come on this stuff is terrible!!!
The red I'm fine with, the blue will probably never happen, the rest is ridiculous.

Offline Sota

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Re: No rapture or second comming? (see 1st post)
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2008, 01:38:25 PM »
No second coming?  But I'm right here!

Offline Hermes

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Re: No rapture or second comming? (see 1st post)
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2008, 02:47:40 PM »
I've reset the vote tally.  Please feel free to vote again if you are interested!

Reason for the reset;

1. Only 3 voters; 1 was me, 1 was someone who made a mistake, and one (I guess) Christian voter.

2. I didn't check the right boxes when configuring the poll; nobody can change their vote.

Sorry to the one Christian who voted.  Mea culpa.  Mea culpa.  Mea maxima culpa.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline PingTheServer

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Re: No rapture or second comming? (see 1st post)
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2008, 08:54:54 PM »
I answered No and Yes to throw off your numbers.

BTW, I think it is a rediculous notion.  The "rapture" may come, but it won't have anything to do with mythology.

Offline Hermes

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Re: No rapture or second comming? (see 1st post)
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2008, 09:23:05 PM »
Thanks.  Remember to vote for Micky Mouse or Marty Feldman on November 4th.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline velkyn

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Re: No rapture or second comming? (see 1st post)
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2008, 01:26:08 PM »
supposedly Isaac Newton commented on the Second Coming: http://www.isaac-newton.org/
 http://www.isaac-newton.org/snobelen.pdf

but considering on how many "quotes" have been made up by Christians, I'm not sure if this is true or not.
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Offline Hermes

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Re: No rapture or second comming? (see 1st post)
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2008, 02:56:59 PM »
Velkyn, I only noted one reference to Jesus in that paper and it was a comment from the author not Newton.  Most of it dealt with Jews returning to Israel and the modern author's comments (after 1800).  Then again, I only skimmed it and could have easily missed the important parts ... corrections appreciated.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline velkyn

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Re: No rapture or second comming? (see 1st post)
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2008, 03:20:40 PM »
Velkyn, I only noted one reference to Jesus in that paper and it was a comment from the author not Newton.  Most of it dealt with Jews returning to Israel and the modern author's comments (after 1800).  Then again, I only skimmed it and could have easily missed the important parts ... corrections appreciated.

No corrections to offer, that's what I read.  I suppose one could make an assumption that since most nutcases insist that the Jews must return before a "second coming" that Newton also believed in that too.   This is the book that supposedly this all came from "Observations on Daniel and the Apocalypse of St. John"
http://books.google.com/books?ct=result&id=acnqwOB5KgkC&dq=newton+daniel+apocalypse&pg=PP1&lpg=PP1&sig=ACfU3U2yydclCELIPi7pmC17n0G3mdFvEA&q=second#PPA3,M1

"Thus have we in this short Prophecy, a prediction of all the main periods relating to the coming of the Messiah; the time of his birth, that of his death, that of the rejection of the Jews, the duration of the Jewish war whereby he caused the city and sanctuary to be destroyed, and the time of his second coming: and so the interpretation here given is more full and complete and adequate to the design, than if we should restrain it to his first coming only, as Interpreters usually do. We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the 7 weeks and 62 weeks for one number. Had that
been Daniel's meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbering used by no nation."

No being that I can't look at the entire book, I have no idea if this is correct or yet another example of Christians ascribing a quote to someone who ever said such a thing, like many of them do to Einstein, etc. 

"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline Hermes

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Re: No rapture or second comming? (see 1st post)
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2008, 03:54:58 PM »
The Bible is an unstandardised Rorschach test.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Azdgari

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Re: No rapture or second comming? (see 1st post)
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2008, 05:35:09 PM »
The Bible is an unstandardised Rorschach test.

That one's going into the signature-box, if you don't mind.  ;)
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Hermes

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Re: No rapture or second comming? (see 1st post)
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2008, 06:12:48 PM »
That one's going into the signature-box, if you don't mind.  ;)

[bows deeply]  I would be honored. 

Mangle it as you wish ... make it your own ... no attribution required even if you don't change a thing.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Azdgari

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Re: No rapture or second comming? (see 1st post)
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2008, 09:46:56 PM »
Citation removed, tag-on added.  ;D
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline kevyrat69

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Re: No rapture or second comming? (see 1st post)
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2008, 10:48:55 PM »
I was reading the LA times the other day and they had an ad saying that jesus is returning and you, as a christian must be prepared for his return so I went to work that day and asked someone if they were prepared for jesus and yes they are a christian.  She said that she needed to do a lot of things to prepare but would not elaborate.  I asked her later and she would not tell me.  Nobody wants to talk about it so I don't push it.  This should be one we need to ask all of the christians:  What are they doing to prepare for jesus second coming???  I think it would be interesting to read them anyway.
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

whatever people are experiencing when they experience God, it's not something they're perceiving in the external world. It's something their brains are making up.
Greta Christina

Offline Sota

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Re: No rapture or second comming? (see 1st post)
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2008, 10:51:51 PM »
I'm sure most of them want to get their hair did for Jesus.  Maybe find him a nice card, a bouquet to go with it.  I think they're hoping to get lucky.

Offline Hermes

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Re: No rapture or second comming? (see 1st post)
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2008, 01:23:52 PM »
I'm sure most of them want to get their hair did for Jesus.  Maybe find him a nice card, a bouquet to go with it.  I think they're hoping to get lucky.

Along those lines...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACKBd8QpvKk[/youtube]
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer