god lies, lucifer tells the truth

[Blaziken_rjcf]

the snake in genesis is lucifer, correct?
god (supposedly) never lies, correct?
god says, and i quote (from my mom's bible):

in the day that you eat from the tree you will surely die

lucifer says they won't. adam and eve have TWO SEPARATE, NON-TWIN CHILDREN which means they lived for at LEAST a year and 2 months

someone (christians) mind explaining this to me?

[Gaston]

I don't think you can claim that was "lucifer". As far as I know it was just a "serpent". But that's aside from the point.

Adam and Eve didn't die, they just got kicked out of the garden, but they also lost their immortality. If that answers your question.

[GodIsDead]

Loss of immortality = death

So technically "he" killed them. Just not with bolts of lightning from the heavens.

[Nick]

Yes, he killed them with old age.  The horror of it all.

[screwtape]

Kcrady rocked this topic hard some time ago here

[Blaziken_rjcf]

Loss of immortality = death
So technically "he" killed them. Just not with bolts of lightning from the heavens.

but according to my mom's version of the bible, he said they would die THE VERY DAY they ate from the tree

[GodIsDead]

You gotta imagine gods version of time is a bit different than ours.

Xtians say he made the everything in 7 days... well 6 days then he was all tuckered out and needed a nap on the 7th.

But since he was creating all of this, there was no set unit of time. Since there was nothing before he made it. So God working on a different time table. For all we know gods day is really like 70 years or something... so in gods time span, maybe he did kill them the same day.

imo: its a bunch of bullshit. But im bored at work so coming up with random discussions is what i'm doing.

[Blaziken_rjcf]

You gotta imagine gods version of time is a bit different than ours.

Xtians say he made the everything in 7 days... well 6 days then he was all tuckered out and needed a nap on the 7th.

But since he was creating all of this, there was no set unit of time. Since there was nothing before he made it. So God working on a different time table. For all we know gods day is really like 70 years or something... so in gods time span, maybe he did kill them the same day.

i know that excuse is used by xtians a lot but it's utter BS. the universe was created and a day on earth is a day for god since god is here and (this) bible clearly describes the sun going up and down and how that movement is a single day. so they didnt die on the very same day they ate from the tree. any xtians mind giving me their flawed rationalities?

[Gordon Freeman]

You gotta imagine gods version of time is a bit different than ours.

Xtians say he made the everything in 7 days... well 6 days then he was all tuckered out and needed a nap on the 7th.

But since he was creating all of this, there was no set unit of time. Since there was nothing before he made it. So God working on a different time table. For all we know gods day is really like 70 years or something... so in gods time span, maybe he did kill them the same day.

i know that excuse is used by xtians a lot but it's utter BS. the universe was created and a day on earth is a day for god since god is here and (this) bible clearly describes the sun going up and down and how that movement is a single day. so they didnt die on the very same day they ate from the tree. any xtians mind giving me their flawed rationalities?

That explains the hebrew word yome (day). That word usually means a day from sunrise to sunset, but it sometimes can be used for various periods of time. But since Genesis clearly says that sun rose and set, we can conclude it was a 24-hour period of time.

[GodIsDead]

you ask for a xtian to give you a rational comment.

i'm not laughing at you.. i'm laughing with you.

The only rational conclusion is "god's full of shit and a filthy dirty imaginary lying space monster".

[Blaziken_rjcf]

That explains the hebrew word yome (day). That word usually means a day from sunrise to sunset, but it sometimes can be used for various periods of time. But since Genesis clearly says that sun rose and set, we can conclude it was a 24-hour period of time.

exactly. and i want to hear how xtians will get out of this one

[Blaziken_rjcf]

you ask for a xtian to give you a rational comment.

i'm not laughing at you.. i'm laughing with you.

The only rational conclusion is "god's full of shit and a filthy dirty imaginary lying space monster".

i know, asking a xtian to give a rational comment is like asking someone to build a completely functional super computer using only a rock

[Gordon Freeman]

you ask for a xtian to give you a rational comment.

i'm not laughing at you.. i'm laughing with you.

The only rational conclusion is "god's full of s**t and a filthy dirty imaginary lying space monster".

i know, asking a xtian to give a rational comment is like asking someone to build a completely functional super computer using only a rock

Ha, ha, this one is great. Your comments (from both of you) could be used in many occasions (-:

[Blaziken_rjcf]

just like i thought, xtians can't stand lucifer telling the truth while their supposedly perfect god lies through his teeth/ass/whatever is on his face

[Dominic]

The Bible is not meant to be read literally.  It documents some of the history of Judeo-Christianity and it is written by individuals with various degrees of understanding.  The Church put the Bible together.  The Bible is the Church's book.  The Church should be consulted whenever a passage needs interpretation or clarification.

Having said that, here is my own interpretation of 'the fall' (since the church has not expounded much on this topic to my knowledge) -

The Eden story is an analogy.  The snake/serpent represents the possibility of opposing God - personified.

The eating of the apple represents opposing God (for the first time).  It is a subtle opposition because it actually involves promoting an individual (man) to be a competitor with God.  The human takes on this opposition when he learns that he can be an individual self - with an individual will - which may or may not be in accordance with God's will (usually not) and he then takes on that self.  The will of this 'self' is in fact the basis of the word selfishness.  Actions for the self are most often not concerned with the needs of others or more importantly not concerned with God's will.
 
When the human person takes on this individual self (this occurs for all of us at a very young age) he or she takes on the same nature as did the figurative first man and woman.  Because this self is almost by definition opposed to God (hence selfishness) this 'nature' of man is also known as 'original sin'.

The human self is inextricably bound up with an individual human body and mind.  However this body is temporary.  This body eventually dies.  The human soul on the other hand (more akin to consciousness itself) is permanent and inviolable.  The soul is in fact man's true nature.  The soul is what matters to God and the soul is what gets downplayed or forgotten as the human self taken centre stage.

To bring this all back to the point of the OP, human death came about immediately when we identified with the temporary human self rather than with the eternal soul.  This was the fall.  This continues to be the fall within each one of us.  This is what we call 'original sin'.  And finally, this is what gives rise to human death since the self and body will die.

This analysis regarding the self also demonstrates the inherent connection between the major Western and Eastern religious traditions.

[Blaziken_rjcf]

The Bible is not meant to be read literally.

then the 10 commandments are metaphorical a well

It documents some of the history of Judeo-Christianity and it is written by individuals with various degrees of understanding.  The Church put the Bible together.  The Bible is the Church's book.  The Church should be consulted whenever a passage needs interpretation or clarification.

the bible is supposed to be god's book. it is written. and the church hides behind excuses like faith, mistranslations, metaphors etc

Having said that, here is my own interpretation of 'the fall' (since the church has not expounded much on this topic to my knowledge) -

The Eden story is an analogy.  The snake/serpent represents the possibility of opposing God - personified.

The eating of the apple represents opposing God (for the first time).  It is a subtle opposition because it actually involves promoting an individual (man) to be a competitor with God.  The human takes on this opposition when he learns that he can be an individual self - with an individual will - which may or may not be in accordance with God's will (usually not) and he then takes on that self.  The will of this 'self' is in fact the basis of the word selfishness.  Actions for the self are most often not concerned with the needs of others or more importantly not concerned with God's will.

but isnt man supposed to have been born already with free will?
 

When the human person takes on this individual self (this occurs for all of us at a very young age) he or she takes on the same nature as did the figurative first man and woman.  Because this self is almost by definition opposed to God (hence selfishness) this 'nature' of man is also known as 'original sin'.

there was no selfishness. they did not know that what they were doing was wrong

The human self is inextricably bound up with an individual human body and mind.  However this body is temporary.  This body eventually dies.  The human soul on the other hand (more akin to consciousness itself) is permanent and inviolable.  The soul is in fact man's true nature.  The soul is what matters to God and the soul is what gets downplayed or forgotten as the human self taken centre stage.

prove a soul exists

To bring this all back to the point of the OP, human death came about immediately when we identified with the temporary human self rather than with the eternal soul.  This was the fall.  This continues to be the fall within each one of us.  This is what we call 'original sin'.  And finally, this is what gives rise to human death since the self and body will die.

sorry but if the bible is truly a metaphorical book how do you know that THIS is the correct interpretation of the bible?

This analysis regarding the self also demonstrates the inherent connection between the major Western and Eastern religious traditions.

all religions are based on the same so it's not that hard to make a connection

[Dominic]

The Bible is not meant to be read literally.

then the 10 commandments are metaphorical a well

The 10 commandments are a guide to achieving happiness individually and achieving a healthy and happy society.

If the 10 commandments were totally eradicated from human knowledge today, they would simply slowly be re-discovered naturally as humans gradually find out (by trial and error) what works effectively and what fails both personally and for a properly functioning society.

It documents some of the history of Judeo-Christianity and it is written by individuals with various degrees of understanding.  The Church put the Bible together.  The Bible is the Church's book.  The Church should be consulted whenever a passage needs interpretation or clarification.

the bible is supposed to be god's book. it is written. and the church hides behind excuses like faith, mistranslations, metaphors etc

Obviously the book had writers.  Men also chose which books to include.  The Bible has no authority other than what it was given by the Church which put it together.  The Bible is subject to the Church.  The Church is subject to Jesus.

Having said that, here is my own interpretation of 'the fall' (since the church has not expounded much on this topic to my knowledge) -

The Eden story is an analogy.  The snake/serpent represents the possibility of opposing God - personified.

The eating of the apple represents opposing God (for the first time).  It is a subtle opposition because it actually involves promoting an individual (man) to be a competitor with God.  The human takes on this opposition when he learns that he can be an individual self - with an individual will - which may or may not be in accordance with God's will (usually not) and he then takes on that self.  The will of this 'self' is in fact the basis of the word selfishness.  Actions for the self are most often not concerned with the needs of others or more importantly not concerned with God's will.

but isnt man supposed to have been born already with free will?
 

The analogy described above is not a sudden event.  It is a process which may have taken thousands of years wherby man became what he is today (ie with a knowledge of good and evil and the ability to choose).

When the human person takes on this individual self (this occurs for all of us at a very young age) he or she takes on the same nature as did the figurative first man and woman.  Because this self is almost by definition opposed to God (hence selfishness) this 'nature' of man is also known as 'original sin'.

there was no selfishness. they did not know that what they were doing was wrong

True.  'Father forgive them for they know not what they do'.

And for everyone there is also almost always an element of ignorance when we do something 'wrong'.

So the 'first self' and then 'selfishness' in general just came about.  It wasn't as if anyone said 'I want to be selfish'.  It could be said that it just evolved. 

The human self is inextricably bound up with an individual human body and mind.  However this body is temporary.  This body eventually dies.  The human soul on the other hand (more akin to consciousness itself) is permanent and inviolable.  The soul is in fact man's true nature.  The soul is what matters to God and the soul is what gets downplayed or forgotten as the human self taken centre stage.

prove a soul exists

I equate soul with consciousness (which I am sure you already believe in).

To bring this all back to the point of the OP, human death came about immediately when we identified with the temporary human self rather than with the eternal soul.  This was the fall.  This continues to be the fall within each one of us.  This is what we call 'original sin'.  And finally, this is what gives rise to human death since the self and body will die.

sorry but if the bible is truly a metaphorical book how do you know that THIS is the correct interpretation of the bible?

I don't.  It is just the best I have found and explains things more satisfactorily than any other theory that I have heard about.

[I should clarify that the Bible is not totally metaphorical.  It is sometimes allegorical/metaphorical, sometimes historical, sometimes instructional and more.]

[Blaziken_rjcf]

The 10 commandments are a guide to achieving happiness individually and achieving a healthy and happy society.

If the 10 commandments were totally eradicated from human knowledge today, they would simply slowly be re-discovered naturally as humans gradually find out (by trial and error) what works effectively and what fails both personally and for a properly functioning society.

so first the bible is a metaphor, now it's literal. cherry picking doesnt work unless you can prove that specific parts of the bible are X or Y or Z and that they mean EXACTLY what you think they mean

Obviously the book had writers.  Men also chose which books to include.  The Bible has no authority other than what it was given by the Church which put it together.  The Bible is subject to the Church.  The Church is subject to Jesus.

which church exactly? tell me, which of the ~40000 christian denominations is the real one and how do you know that it's the real one?

The analogy described above is not a sudden event.  It is a process which may have taken thousands of years wherby man became what he is today (ie with a knowledge of good and evil and the ability to choose).

so adam and eve lived for THOUSANDS of years and yet after they were kicked out of eden, eve still was able to make two kids?
amazing. if you're gonna ask "do you know what an analogy is?" then first prove to me that it IS an analogy and that it means EXACTLY what you think it means

True.  'Father forgive them for they know not what they do'.

And for everyone there is also almost always an element of ignorance when we do something 'wrong'.

So the 'first self' and then 'selfishness' in general just came about.  It wasn't as if anyone said 'I want to be selfish'.  It could be said that it just evolved.

so god didnt care that they didnt know that what they were doing was wrong because since they didnt know good or evil, they couldnt know that not following what god says was bad

I equate soul with consciousness (which I am sure you already believe in).

consciousness is one thing, soul is another. supposedly the soul sticks around forever after the person's brain stops working. consciousness does not

I don't.  It is just the best I have found and explains things more satisfactorily than any other theory that I have heard about.

"best I have found" means you didnt think for yourself, you just went with someone else's ideas
also, here's a more satisfactory explanation which seems to be the explanation for everything in the theist world: godditit

[I should clarify that the Bible is not totally metaphorical.  It is sometimes allegorical/metaphorical, sometimes historical, sometimes instructional and more.]

even IF that is true, how can you distinguish between all the different parts? and how can you be sure that the allegories/metaphors/analogies etc mean EXACTLY what you think it does?

[Gordon Freeman]

True.  'Father forgive them for they know not what they do'.

And for everyone there is also almost always an element of ignorance when we do something 'wrong'.

So the 'first self' and then 'selfishness' in general just came about.  It wasn't as if anyone said 'I want to be selfish'.  It could be said that it just evolved. 

So, why weren't Eve and Adam forgiven? If Eve and Adam didn't know what they were doing, then why were they (and we) punished for doing that? Even Jesus asked god to forgive his "enemies" for not knowing what they're doing. You think god has forgiven them?

[Gimpy]

The 10 commandments are a guide to achieving happiness individually and achieving a healthy and happy society.

If the 10 commandments were totally eradicated from human knowledge today, they would simply slowly be re-discovered naturally as humans gradually find out (by trial and error) what works effectively and what fails both personally and for a properly functioning society.

Humans existed for thousands upon thousands of years without the 10 commandments and figured out just fine how to live with each other.

It had nothing to do with a godbeing, and everything to do with humans being social animals and finding ways, culturally and socially, to advance the species.

In fact, the truth is that the core "be good" message from the bible -- treat others as you would want others to treat you -- was a main belief long before biblegod ever existed in the superstitious collection of writings that you call the bible.

But for the sake of argument, do you really think that, left to their own devices, groups of people would demand that a single god be worshiped, that no other gods be allowed to exist, that people not be allowed to make "idols" (representations of their god), or that they not take their god's name in vain, and that they must keep one day of the week devoted only to their god?

That's almost half of the Big Ten there.

ALL the others fall under the "golden rule" (with the exception of honor your parents), which, again, existed for eons before biblegod ever was dreamt of.

And I have issues with the honor you parents one as a COMMANDMENT anyway.

As we can see, in many cases, lots more than we like to believe is possible, honoring your parents when they are abusers or worse is just plain sick. The commandment doesn't make exceptions, apparently, so where is the sense in that?

[velkyn]

The 10 commandments are a guide to achieving happiness individually and achieving a healthy and happy society.

If the 10 commandments were totally eradicated from human knowledge today, they would simply slowly be re-discovered naturally as humans gradually find out (by trial and error) what works effectively and what fails both personally and for a properly functioning society.

No, they are rules for one society that believed in one certain jealous god.  You make claims based on your desire but not on any facts.  How do you know that people would rediscover your particular god?  You don't. I am always amused that the first 10 are always spec'ed out by Christians when they ignore the rest, also all supposedly by their god and all meant for the same people.

Obviously the book had writers.  Men also chose which books to include.  The Bible has no authority other than what it was given by the Church which put it together.  The Bible is subject to the Church.  The Church is subject to Jesus.

Hmmm, how is the bible subject to the Church when the Church depends on the bible for its existence and meaning? 

I equate soul with consciousness (which I am sure you already believe in).

which ends at the death of the body.  So your attempt to claim that a "soul" exists past this makes no sense. 

I should clarify that the Bible is not totally metaphorical.  It is sometimes allegorical/metaphorical, sometimes historical, sometimes instructional and more.

and no Christian can agree on what the "right" way to divide it is.

[Nam]

the snake in genesis is lucifer, correct?

To most (or all) Christians the snake in Genesis is either the Devil or Lucifer. However, they also believe that the Devil and Lucifer are the same being; and that's never made clear either.

-Nam

[Dominic]

True.  'Father forgive them for they know not what they do'.

And for everyone there is also almost always an element of ignorance when we do something 'wrong'.

So the 'first self' and then 'selfishness' in general just came about.  It wasn't as if anyone said 'I want to be selfish'.  It could be said that it just evolved. 

So, why weren't Eve and Adam forgiven? If Eve and Adam didn't know what they were doing, then why were they (and we) punished for doing that? Even Jesus asked god to forgive his "enemies" for not knowing what they're doing. You think god has forgiven them?

Gordon,

That is a very good question.

Firstly I should mention that I have described earlier in this thread that the Adam & Eve story is allegorical.  The occurence it describes (ie humans first identifying as individual selves) could have taken thousands of years or more.

Having said that, I think that your question can be answered similarly for either the story or for the truth it depicts.

ie 'Adam and Eve' were forgiven.  But 'they' had changed the nature of human existence by their action.  They had actualised a potential which changed the very nature of experience for them-selves and for their offspring.  Their action created a new state of existence for humans once they believed in a personal self.  And this belief is passed on to children (belief in an individual self).


Forgiveness is also very interesting -

- Firstly they were forgiven in the story by continuing their lives though much changed

- Secondly they were forgiven through the action of Jesus on the cross much later (this needs a lot of clarification which won't be done here and now but it involves the perfect sacrifice ie the Self-lessness of unconditional love reversing the actions of the original Self-ishness of Adam and Eve)

- Thirdy they were forgiven because their 'sin' actually led to a greater potential for the human race (in other words their metaphorical 'sin' was in fact necessary and essential for humanity).  A fall needed to occur before a greater rising up to a new level could be achieved for mankind.


This needs more work I know but I think this begins to open up the deeper significance of the Eden allegory.  This is something that hasn't yet been tackled deeply by many Christian writers as far as I know.   That is probably because it relates to the very nature of being human which is not the easiest subject.

[Goldielocks]

Quote:
"exactly. and i want to hear how xtians will get out of this one"


I'm not sure if anyone responded to the original question. Too much babbling by everyone...

Did Adam and eve die that day? YES.
They died spiritually. They were removed from God's presence. They never saw God again I believe.

and then...soon after (100's of years) they died physically as well. So Satan was wrong on both accounts.

[Gordon Freeman]

True.  'Father forgive them for they know not what they do'.

And for everyone there is also almost always an element of ignorance when we do something 'wrong'.

So the 'first self' and then 'selfishness' in general just came about.  It wasn't as if anyone said 'I want to be selfish'.  It could be said that it just evolved. 

So, why weren't Eve and Adam forgiven? If Eve and Adam didn't know what they were doing, then why were they (and we) punished for doing that? Even Jesus asked god to forgive his "enemies" for not knowing what they're doing. You think god has forgiven them?

Gordon,

That is a very good question.

Firstly I should mention that I have described earlier in this thread that the Adam & Eve story is allegorical.  The occurence it describes (ie humans first identifying as individual selves) could have taken thousands of years or more.

Having said that, I think that your question can be answered similarly for either the story or for the truth it depicts.

ie 'Adam and Eve' were forgiven.  But 'they' had changed the nature of human existence by their action.  They had actualised a potential which changed the very nature of experience for them-selves and for their offspring.  Their action created a new state of existence for humans once they believed in a personal self.  And this belief is passed on to children (belief in an individual self).


Forgiveness is also very interesting -

- Firstly they were forgiven in the story by continuing their lives though much changed

- Secondly they were forgiven through the action of Jesus on the cross much later (this needs a lot of clarification which won't be done here and now but it involves the perfect sacrifice ie the Self-lessness of unconditional love reversing the actions of the original Self-ishness of Adam and Eve)

- Thirdy they were forgiven because their 'sin' actually led to a greater potential for the human race (in other words their metaphorical 'sin' was in fact necessary and essential for humanity).  A fall needed to occur before a greater rising up to a new level could be achieved for mankind.


This needs more work I know but I think this begins to open up the deeper significance of the Eden allegory.  This is something that hasn't yet been tackled deeply by many Christian writers as far as I know.   That is probably because it relates to the very nature of being human which is not the easiest subject.

OK...

First, how can you say that The Fall of Eve and Adam is allegorical? Is The Talking Snake allegorical? Is the Creation Story allegorical? Is the flood allegorical? Is Jonah's story allegorical? Is Job's story allegorical? Is the divine birth allegorical? Resurrection? The Book of Revelation? If all these are allegorical, than what your faith is based on? A fairy tale? Isn't that what atheists are saying all the time? If not, how do you distinguish those which are allegorical and which are not?

Second, Allegorical or not, how come Eve and Adam were forgiven?! Weren't they thrown out of Eden because they couldn't be in the presence of god for they have sinned? It's been said: "You will die on the very same day you taste the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil." (Some verse in the bible). They died, so to me it looks like a punishment. And "they were forgiven through the action of Jesus on the cross much later"?? WTF?! They didn't ask Jesus to fill their heart, so how in the world they could be forgiven by the blood of Jesus? Could I be forgiven the very same way? Why then Israelites needed the blood of pure animals to please god?

And third, "Sin led to greater potential for human kind? For the sake of the story, their sin brought murderers into world (Cain, by the way), so this is the greater potential? So, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger? So, fall leads to a greater rise? Oh, now I get it... That's why god mixed human's languages in the story of Tower Of Babel, so they could make a greater rise? So, if sin was a necessity, why Eve and Adam were outcasts?

From what you're saying, the only thing rising here is a new christian denomination. The things you're saying I hear for the first time, and trust me, I met a lot of christians during certain time, and I visited camps and places... Never heard of what you are sayin'. Interesting... I need to save your post for future references... I think this would be great for my site? It got to make people laugh!

[screwtape]

Did Adam and eve die that day? YES.
They died spiritually. They were removed from God's presence. They never saw God again I believe.

What do you mean they died spiritually?  What does that mean?  Their spirits died?  Where is that written in the bible?  Is this a figure of speech?  If so, where else was this used?  Why should we not take this story in a straight forward reading[1]? 

If you are correct, then are we all spiritually dead?  Since no one on earth is in god's presence...

and then...soon after (100's of years) they died physically as well. So Satan was wrong on both accounts.

If the world is 13 million years old, then 600 years is the blink of an eye.  If the world is 6000 years old, as many fundies claim, it is 10% of the age of the universe.  That would be a very long time.  Not soon after at all.

1.	you know, besides the fact that if we did that, it does not add up the way you want.

[velkyn]

Did Adam and eve die that day? YES.
They died spiritually. They were removed from God's presence. They never saw God again I believe.

and then...soon after (100's of years) they died physically as well. So Satan was wrong on both accounts.

so we can rely on God to screw around for 100s of years to get around to something?   Doesnt' bode well for when he might get around to sending himself back?  I am also curious, if there was some "original sin" this should mean that no human at all should ever have had the chance to see God again.  But the bible says this isn't true.  We have Moses doing it all the time and he was a murderer on top of the "original sin".