Author Topic: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?  (Read 2375 times)

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Offline Star Stuff

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Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« on: February 28, 2010, 06:43:45 PM »
I saw a slick, polished commercial on TV yesterday, essentially calling for all Catholics who have left the church to come back and re-discover their "home".

http://www.catholicscomehome.org/

This really speaks to the element(s) of community and belonging which mean more to some people than the truth factor of said claims.  I sense it also speaks to the desperation of clergy who are seeing their palacial lifestyles threatened.

Thoughts?
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Offline jetson

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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2010, 07:19:59 PM »
My thoughts? - I almost vomited watching that.  But perhaps I am tainted by the fact that they are running short on small children to molest.

Offline anthony_retford

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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2010, 09:22:40 PM »
Well, it seems it is all about "family" now, so that is where they get hold of the small children I suppose. I was intrigued by the woman who said she fell away from being a xtain in her teens, then married a man who was not religious, and finally, through study became a Catholic. What the heck was she studying to get excited? I guess her marriage would have fallen apart with a non-religous husband and her finding out about how to be a Catholic.

Yes, it is mainly older people who attend Catholic church. Young people are not attracted to it. I agree a Catholic church is beautiful at times, especially Christmas but that really has nothing to do with Catholicism.

I see they still believe in Purgatory, where the soul I guess undergoes purification until it is cleansed and ready to enter heaven. What the heck is this purification process? Do they use bleach or Ajax? Isn't this just a cop-out to explain what happens to the majority of people who never heard of their god, or feel guilty about their transgressions. The church does not want to lose them so they give them this reprieve I guess. I wonder how long they are told they will stay there and what the conditions are like?
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Offline SherB

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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2010, 11:40:58 PM »
I see they still believe in Purgatory, where the soul I guess undergoes purification until it is cleansed and ready to enter heaven. What the heck is this purification process? Do they use bleach or Ajax? Isn't this just a cop-out to explain what happens to the majority of people who never heard of their god, or feel guilty about their transgressions. The church does not want to lose them so they give them this reprieve I guess. I wonder how long they are told they will stay there and what the conditions are like?

I went to 8 years of catholic school---couldn't get any play as our priests all went for boys and I'm a girl. But if my memory serves me correctly limbo is where all the non-Catholics went. Usually you just hear that it is for the unbaptized babies, but I seem to remember that all non-Catholics went there and only Catholics went to Purgatory. Supposedly limbo's just like heaven except that god isn't there, so whether that's tormenting or not depends on your definition of hell. If hell's a lake of fire with eternal torment, then limbo's probably pretty cool. If hell is only torment by being separated from god, then not so much---or maybe way better, since you don't have to put up with God and you still get the nice place.

Purgatory is actually a pretty interesting concept. It's like jail time that you had to do in hell lite for your small sins still on your soul when you died. As long as you got those Last Rites from a priest, it didn't matter what you'd done, you were on the expressway to God and Heaven. Of course, the early church being what it was---not that different from today's catholic church---purgatory was mostly used as a way to could bail out your family members and send them off to heaven. By the way, families had to pay for Last Rites the same way as if a priest does a wedding or funeral.

An indulgance is better. That's where you pre-pay to get your get-out-of-purgatory card, so you can go off and commit a few of those minor sins without having to worry about it. Of course, it's still probably safer to get those Last Rites as well.  You gotta give them credit, the Catholics made getting money out of the faithful an art form. These fundie preachers that are always asking for money are rank amateurs compared to the Catholic church.

SherB
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Offline Petey

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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2010, 09:04:00 AM »
Well, this is promising indeed.  To draw a parallel:

When an MMO has a "come back to us" event (free time for former subscribers, reduced subscription rate for a month, etc.), it is a sure sign that they have been losing a large number of subscribers in the months before it.  It is a "stop the bleeding" tactic, used to buy some time for fixing problems or adding content that may or may not reverse the trend.
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Offline jedweber

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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2010, 10:28:24 AM »
Catholics don't do much proselytizing on the ground (at least in a place like the US). They can never match the fervor of evangelicals, JWs, Mormons, etc, who make winning converts a key duty for ordinary followers. So instead of trying to poach followers from more dynamic sects, it's easier to reach out to the millions of people who were raised Catholic and drifted away.

Seems like good marketing for them. People tend to become nostalgic in their middle age - look at all the ancient rock groups who sell out tours even though no one's bought their new stuff in 20 years or more.

Offline SherB

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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2010, 10:46:09 AM »
Catholics don't do much proselytizing on the ground (at least in a place like the US). They can never match the fervor of evangelicals, JWs, Mormons, etc, who make winning converts a key duty for ordinary followers. So instead of trying to poach followers from more dynamic sects, it's easier to reach out to the millions of people who were raised Catholic and drifted away.

Seems like good marketing for them. People tend to become nostalgic in their middle age - look at all the ancient rock groups who sell out tours even though no one's bought their new stuff in 20 years or more.

Well said. There's also the fact that catholic dogma goes very deep in catholic-raised people. It's also a cultural-political thing in many groups, like Irish-Catholic, Italian-Catholic, Hispanic-Catholic, etc. That covert pressure from the relatives, all the Catholic rituals for marraige and funerals, etc. And since Catholics really aren't encouraged to read the bible for themselves, they don't have to think about the "hard" parts of it, which fits very well with their agenda. Most of my relatives, as they got married and had kids went back to the church. Maybe I beat it by not having kids---doesn't matter, as I'm perfectly happy without it. SherB
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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2010, 10:54:10 AM »
Instead of trying to poach followers from more dynamic sects, it's easier to reach out to the millions of people who were raised Catholic and drifted away.

Seems like good marketing for them. People tend to become nostalgic in their middle age - look at all the ancient rock groups who sell out tours even though no one's bought their new stuff in 20 years or more.

Interesting point.
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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2010, 10:56:11 AM »
There's also the fact that catholic dogma goes very deep in catholic-raised people.

This I've always noticed, but never understood.  Heck, I think I remember hearing a guy say that he doesn't really beleive in god anymore, but when asked if he were a Catholic, he said "Yes, yes!"

 :shrug
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 11:01:10 AM by Star Stuff »
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Offline desmodia

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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2010, 10:58:32 AM »
They had a subway poster campaign in the 80s in NYC that was completely lame. Showed a bunch of cartoon sheep and a shepherd's crook with a slogan something like "Rejoin the flock."

I can't imagine what something like that would appeal to in a person -- a deep sense of fearfulness and insecurity? I was not raised Catholic so maybe being a member of a "flock" means something positive to them. It was completely abhorrent to me.
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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2010, 11:10:35 AM »
I saw a slick, polished commercial on TV yesterday, essentially calling for all Catholics who have left the church to come back and re-discover their "home".

http://www.catholicscomehome.org/

This really speaks to the element(s) of community and belonging which mean more to some people than the truth factor of said claims.  I sense it also speaks to the desperation of clergy who are seeing their palacial lifestyles threatened.

Thoughts?

Thanks for posting this SS, it motivated me to phone the church I was baptised at to get the debaptism ball rolling - no reply but I will ring back later..........
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Offline jedweber

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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2010, 11:23:51 AM »
I can't imagine what something like that would appeal to in a person -- a deep sense of fearfulness and insecurity? I was not raised Catholic so maybe being a member of a "flock" means something positive to them. It was completely abhorrent to me.

Catholicism gives followers a cultural identity and a sense of community. From the member's perspective,  it generally feels welcoming and warm. And (in much of the US at least) it's well-accepted and doesn't create tension with the outside community. It doesn't make extreme demands or require behavior that sets us apart from others. (like Mormons outside Utah, or JWs who have to knock on doors.) So the benefits of belonging come without any great social cost. 

I can still find many things about the church appealing. The problem is that I simply don't believe their doctrines anymore, so their nostalgic appeals won't work on me.

Offline jedweber

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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2010, 11:56:32 AM »
Well said. There's also the fact that catholic dogma goes very deep in catholic-raised people. It's also a cultural-political thing in many groups, like Irish-Catholic, Italian-Catholic, Hispanic-Catholic, etc. That covert pressure from the relatives, all the Catholic rituals for marraige and funerals, etc.

Exactly, this dynamic is at work in my family. My grandparents and parents after them were/are all extremely devout. Yet ALL of my siblings and younger cousins have drifted away (even if I'm the only one who's overtly atheist.) There's always a gentle but relentless pressure to keep up the traditions. My brother was recently persuaded to baptize his daughter in the church, even though he and his wife stopped practicing years ago. (In a subversive move, he made ME the godfather!  ;D)

People joke about Jewish guilt, but it's very big among Catholics, too. My parents know they can get far better results by guilt-tripping us than by preaching, demanding, or bible-thumping. So we're often subtly reminded how much it would mean to them if we kept up with the rituals. After all, we don't want to break our parents' hearts and make them worry about our eternal souls, do we? 

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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2010, 03:31:20 PM »
A couple more things that I think help the catholics more than other religions get peope back...

Religion really is all along about joining and community, and the catholics are very good about some things. They're very well-organized and tend to be in the forefront of social justice and helping the poor. That wins them a lot of followers. Another is that they do actually do things for people, which while I know is only marketing, still it's more than most churches do.

If an old guy from a fundie church falls down his stairs and breaks his leg, well, if he can make it to church, everybody says they'll pray for him. Maybe they'll even go pick him up and carry him to church. But that's pretty much it. Here the Knights of Columbus go fix up his house so he can get around and the old ladies in the church auxiliary bring him casseroles. Fish, though, on Friday---some things never change!

Anyway, that cradle to grave thing works well, especially as people get closer to the grave. Remember, one of the catholic's huge revenue streams are the money people leave to it when they die, especially if they don't have kids. The church has made out like a bandit over the years with that! ;)

The catholic church is so completely outside what's normal in the developed world in terms of brith control, etc., that for generations those rules have only been a nod and a wink anyway---they're almost considered not to be taken seriously. It's too bad, since their stand is so bad for the developing world and has a huge effect on effective legislation in catholic-dominated countries. But I know a lot of good, church-going catholics and they take the pill and even have abortions just as fast as anybody else. In my mother's day they had to tell the priest they were taking the pill for 'medical' reasons. Not having a baby is pretty medical. People of my generation would laugh at even the idea of talking to a priest about it.

SherB


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Offline DaBungalow

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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2010, 04:55:11 PM »
There's some good that can come of this. The folks over at Rapture Ready aren't too happy about this to say the least...

http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?127914-Catholics-Come-Home

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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2010, 08:30:13 PM »
There's some good that can come of this. The folks over at Rapture Ready aren't too happy about this to say the least...

http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?127914-Catholics-Come-Home

That thread is surprising. Looks like they don't think catholics deserve to "go home". This is good news, IMO. Separation of sects. :D Build your wall, born-agains! There's people outside who love god too! You have nothing in common! Run!!
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Offline SherB

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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2010, 09:05:59 PM »
OMG, I'd never been to that site before this. What a total crock of shite!  &) and in a moderator's post, I see that these are all the other, mostly christian, belief systems that the rapturreadyists or whatever they call themselves, think are cults, in addition to the catholics.
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No Cultic material - Teachings that do not agree with Scripture are not to be promoted here. This includes, but is not limited to, Mormonism, Jehovah Witness, Scientology, Masons, Free Masons, Elks, Moose, Christian Identity, New Age, Shepherd's Chapel, Sacred Name Movements, works based faiths such as Roman Catholicism, and Seventh Day Adventist, Church of Christ teachings. Those who adhere to these beliefs are welcome to discuss Christianity in the Apologetics forum. (Galatians 1:6-8)

Damn, I guess that come the rapture, we're probably not even going to notice anybody gone if everybody on that list, in addition to non-Christians, gets left behind. Although I don't really think I could tolerate their heaven; just reading a couple of their posts made me want to take a shower to wash the hate off. I'd be so proud if I was a christian... >:(

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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2010, 10:39:24 PM »
But even those R/R nut-jobs are unified in their belief.  They experience that feeling of community & belonging which is like crack to us social humans.
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Offline SherB

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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2010, 02:21:53 AM »
The thing I guess I hate, seriously, about most of that stuff is there always has to be an 'us vs them' mentality. It's like members of almost all religions have to unify behind a dislike of, if not actual deep-seated hatred of, somebody else. So sad...  --SherB
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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2010, 11:05:16 AM »
The thing I guess I hate, seriously, about most of that stuff is there always has to be an 'us vs them' mentality. It's like members of almost all religions have to unify behind a dislike of, if not actual deep-seated hatred of, somebody else. So sad... 

Then you would find this book interesting:

http://www.amazon.com/True-Believer-Thoughts-Movements-Perennial/dp/0060505915/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267545890&sr=1-1
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Offline jedweber

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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2010, 11:26:12 AM »
Quote
No Cultic material - Teachings that do not agree with Scripture are not to be promoted here. This includes, but is not limited to, Mormonism, Jehovah Witness, Scientology, Masons, Free Masons, Elks, Moose, Christian Identity, New Age, Shepherd's Chapel, Sacred Name Movements, works based faiths such as Roman Catholicism, and Seventh Day Adventist, Church of Christ teachings. Those who adhere to these beliefs are welcome to discuss Christianity in the Apologetics forum. (Galatians 1:6-8)


LOL! What did the Elks and the Moose do? I didn't know they were religious cults.



Offline SherB

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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2010, 08:10:35 PM »
Thanx for the book link, Star Stuff. It looks like something I'd enjoy and will be giving it a look-see. And as to that list of beliefs that the ready rapturers are against, well, I had heard at least that the Masons and Freemasons were a cult maybe but not the Moose and Elks. Oh well.

I looked up some of those others just out of curiosity and it totally amazes me that there can be that many completely contradictory belief systems that consider themselves to be the only ones that have it right. So even if you're a christian, you can't be sure of getting into heaven because who knows the right password? You could just run around getting baptized into everything and accepting jesus over and over in different churches I suppose, but you'd have to live a really long time. Plus new ones spring up so fast you'd never stay caught up. To say nothing of the fact that most of them require you to renounce whoever your old jesus was for their shiny new jesus.

Wasn't there an episode of the Simpsons where Bart died and went to heaven? I remember someone telling me about it. They said everybody asked him who was right, and I think his answer was something like 'well, mostly the mormons with a little bit of voodoo tossed in.' I may have the details wrong, but it's the idea. Bart Simpson's as good a person to believe about which religion is really real, and he admits to being a fictional character!  ;D

SherB
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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2010, 08:29:22 PM »
So even if you're a christian, you can't be sure of getting into heaven because who knows the right password?

Don't be silly, eveyone knows that it requires the secret decoder ring, not a password.  Geesh.


 ;)
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Offline SherB

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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2010, 08:54:06 PM »
 ;D
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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2010, 12:03:39 AM »
There's some good that can come of this. The folks over at Rapture Ready aren't too happy about this to say the least...

http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?127914-Catholics-Come-Home

That thread is surprising. Looks like they don't think catholics deserve to "go home". This is good news, IMO. Separation of sects. :D Build your wall, born-agains! There's people outside who love god too! You have nothing in common! Run!!

How is this surprising? The hardline protestants and the Catholics have hated each other since the reformation.
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Offline SherB

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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2010, 01:08:51 AM »
Went back over to rr to get some more fun quotes and read a bunch of what they consider heretic. So other Christian religions that believe in the rapture but don't believe exactly the same as they do are also demonic and wicked, along with catholics, atheists, and everybody else. And every post quotes the bible over and over. It's pretty obvious that original thought is not something they have a lot to do with---maybe they think it's the same as original sin. I think you're right, that maybe the christians could be persuaded to take each other out. Please jesus, just come rapture the bastards!
SherB
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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2010, 01:25:04 AM »
....And every post quotes the bible over and over. It's pretty obvious that original thought is not something they have a lot to do with



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Offline anthony_retford

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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2010, 03:41:53 AM »
I looked up some of those others just out of curiosity and it totally amazes me that there can be that many completely contradictory belief systems that consider themselves to be the only ones that have it right. So even if you're a christian, you can't be sure of getting into heaven because who knows the right password? You could just run around getting baptized into everything and accepting jesus over and over in different churches I suppose, but you'd have to live a really long time. Plus new ones spring up so fast you'd never stay caught up. To say nothing of the fact that most of them require you to renounce whoever your old jesus was for their shiny new jesus.
SherB

How do you accept jesus and deny him at the same time? Has anyone had any experience with this bizarre ceremony?

Pastor: “I baptize you in jesus’ name. Do you renounce the previous jesus?”

You: “I accept our lord jesus and reject all other jesus’s, Praise new jesus!”

Pastor: “All praise new jesus.”
People are 'erroneously confident' in their knowledge and underestimate the odds that their information or beliefs will be proved wrong. They tend to seek additional information in ways that confirm what they already believe.
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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Catholics come home. A sign of desperation?
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2010, 10:42:22 AM »
I can see a sit-com coming out of this............."The new adventures of old Jesus"
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