whywontgodhealamputees.com

Main Discussion Zone => General Religious Discussion => Topic started by: mommykicksbutt on April 03, 2009, 01:58:46 PM

Title: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: mommykicksbutt on April 03, 2009, 01:58:46 PM
NT & Jesus' Family Values

Contrary to current popular Christian belief, the NT and Jesus are/were not supporters of family values.  Where do Christians get their exalted view of the "Christian" family?  The NT contains numerous acts of anti-family values.  Within the NT, Jesus treats his mother and siblings with such disrespect and a total lack of affection that it should be deemed immoral.  We can also assume that he never married or had any children, (thank goodness!)  Jesus instructs those who wish to be his followers to abandon and hate their own families. 

The attitude of Jesus toward women in general is ambiguous in the extreme.  At times, he seems to regard them as they exist under the Mosaic Law.  Jesus upholds the law.  Sexism on his part cannot be condoned.  He supposedly came to earth as the moral example for all time to come.  Although mistreatment of women might have been the custom of the day, Jesus' behavior standards should surely have been timeless and they were anything but.

In Matthew alone, there are nineteen instances of anti-family values.  (redacted from the Skeptic's Annotated Bible, Woes to the Women the Bible Tells Me So by Annie Laurie Gaylor, and The Born Again Skeptic's Guide to the Bible by Ruth Hurmence Green)

In Matthew:

1.   The Holy Ghost knocks up a young woman, Mary. 1:18

2.   Jesus called out to two fishermen to be his disciples and they actually left their father mending the fishing nets without even a 'good-bye'.  4:21,22

3.   Jesus came to uphold the OT law, not reform it. 5:17-18. So Jesus supports all the anti-family and misogynistic laws in the OT.

4.   Mutilate yourself if you "lust in your heart."  5:28-29.  So if you lust after any woman you must pluck out your eyes so you won't go to hell.  Another misogynistic passage making women (wife, sister, daughter, mother, etc. look bad to men).

5.   Divorce double standard 5:32.  You can divorce your wife but you can't marry a divorced women.

6.   Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21

7.   Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21

8.   Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.  And a man's foes shall be they of his own household" 10:34-36

9.   Jesus warns us not to love our parents or children too much. We have to make sure that we always love him (who we don't even know existed) more than our family. 10:37

10.   Jesus was very uncivil when his mother and his brothers waited at the edge of a crowd to speak to him, posing a question to his disciples: 'Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?"  and indicating that the disciples were now his family.  Then he added that all who do the will of God, "the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." 12:47-49

11.   Jesus and his followers are criticized by the Pharisees and scribes for not washing their hands before eating. Instead of addressing their concern, Jesus goes on the attack, "And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?  For God said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and , 'Whoever speaks evil of father or mother must surely die.'"  (Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) He then calls them names, "You hypocrites!"  He attacks them for not killing disobedient children when all they quizzed him on was their dirty hands when they eat. 15:4-7

12.   Gentile woman and daughter called "dogs" by Jesus. 15:22-26.  Again, Jesus, the women hater.

13.   In the parable of the unforgiving servant, the king threatens to enslave a man and his entire family to pay for a debt. This practice, which was common at the time, seems not to have bothered Jesus very much. 18:25

14.   "One flesh" marriage, implying no divorce allowed. 19:6

15.   Eunuchs be praised!  If you can be one then go for it!  This is a sure guarantee of no-fatherhood. 19:12

16.   "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters of father or mother or children or fields, for my name's sake, will receive a hundred fold and will inherit eternal life."  Moral here is abandon your family and your children for Jesus and he'll give you a big reward. 19:29

17.   Jesus tells us to "call no man your father upon the earth." Not even dear old dad? How can we "honor our father" if we refuse to call him our father? 23:9

18.   "Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days." Why? Does God especially hate pregnant and nursing women? 24:19

19.   Jesus tells polygamy parable without censure when he compares the kingdom of heaven to ten virgins who went to meet their bridegroom. 25:1  10 wives for 1 man is not a modern Christian family value.

Shall I go on to Mark?  Luke?  John?  Acts?  Romans? And so forth?

My point is that Jesus is no role model and that he was anti-family.  So why do Christians push this crap about "Christian family values" when these "values" are non-existent in the bible but are really innate values within them?

Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: I KILLED JEBUS on April 03, 2009, 02:50:27 PM
You can write anything you want about a fictional character,but for gods son they sure made him out to be a prick
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: mommykicksbutt on April 03, 2009, 04:01:22 PM
prick

This is an understatement.  You are being too kind.   ;)
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: tbright on April 03, 2009, 11:43:09 PM
What a COMPLETE misrepresentation of verses! You have spewed so much trash here, I'd have to spend a week of my life explaining this to you in context of the Bible and the times. Because of your "hate mail," I'll simply pass on the whole. But I have chosen a simple one to make my point. You really need to join a Bible study if you want to attempt to assert something from the Bible. At least have some clue as to what the passage is about.

#19 The Parable of the 10 Virgins (or Bridesmaids).
Your assertion: Preaching polygomy.

Truth: Since I have taught this very subject, I'll share some of the verbiage from one of my Sunday School lessons from months ago that was comprised from many sources:

The Jewish Wedding Festival:
The Jewish marriage consisted of three parts. The first of these was the engagement. Most often, this was arranged by the fathers of the bride and groom. This amounted to a contract of marriage. Here the couple had little involvement.

Secondly, we had the betrothal. This phase could last for weeks, months, or even a year. The purpose was to give the groom time to establish himself. To enter into the betrothal period, the bride and groom exchanged vows in the presence of their friends and family. At this point, they were considered legally married, yet they did not live together. And this is why Mary's pregnancy was an issue in her betrothal. If the groom died during this time, the woman would be considered a widow!

Thirdly, there was the wedding feast. At the end of the betrothal period, the Wedding Feast occurred. This could last as long as a week! Here a feast and multiple celebrations occurred which involved the entire community. It began when the groom accompanied by his groomsmen came to the bride's house. And according to the culture of Christ's day, the time of the groom's arrival would not have been set. Thus, the bride and her maids would ready themselves and then wait — sometimes for hours. Now upon meeting the bride and her maids, the groom's party joined with the bride's party and together they paraded through the streets proclaiming that the wedding feast was about to begin. Now this usually occurred in the late evening, and thus we see the need for torches/lamps. In fact, notice not only would these lamps illumine the dark path but they also would have served to identify the wedding party. At the end of the feast period, a close friend of the groom took the bride's hand and placed it in the groom's, and the couple would be escorted to a room to be left alone together.


A follow-on question you might ask: Why 10 bridesmaids and not just 2, since clearly 1/2 did the right thing and 1/2 did the wrong thing?
There is an interesting study about the number ten. There was always something conclusive about this number. God gave 10 Commandments. The quorum for a synagogue meeting was always 10. Ten people were required for the rite of circumcision. Ten people were the minimum number you could have to keep the Passover. Ten witnesses were required for a marriage contract. Boaz had 10 witnesses when he married Ruth (4:2). So it was not unusual that Jesus chose 10 maidens for this parable.


Edit: Added reference to my Sunday School lesson comprised from many sources. Unfortunately, I don't remember how this was all put together to give the proper references outside of my lesson. Sorry, that's the best I can do.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: Erasmus on April 04, 2009, 12:22:39 AM
Why does timeless truth need to be explained in the context of the times?
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: tbright on April 04, 2009, 01:04:05 AM
Why does timeless truth need to be explained in the context of the times?

Did you ever read about the parable Jesus taught regarding the nuclear explosion? Hmmmm...

The parables and examples were based on local times and culture. The truth of those parables/examples is timeless.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: William on April 04, 2009, 01:37:23 AM
......
My point is that Jesus is no role model and that he was anti-family.  ....

Great post mommykicksbutt. 
Even if several data points get blown away the trend is strong - it's a legacy from a nasty bygone made-made culture trapped in a set of documents painted into a corner in time.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: tbright on April 04, 2009, 01:51:59 AM
Great post mommykicksbutt. 

Even if several data points get blown away the trend is strong - it's a legacy from a nasty bygone made-made culture trapped in a set of documents painted into a corner in time.

Let me re-phrase. This is a great post, even if most of what you asserted is garbage.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: bahramthered on April 04, 2009, 01:58:43 AM
Tbright, it'd be quicker if you passed out those magic decoder rings that let you know exactly what parts of the bible can't be taken literally, which parts are to be and which parts require the additional explanation of time frame references...

BTW: Better keep that thing fired up. I'm building my own post that I'm sure is gonna send you into fits. :)



Mommy sure does kick butt.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: tbright on April 04, 2009, 02:11:03 AM
BTW: Better keep that thing fired up. I'm building my own post that I'm sure is gonna send you into fits. :)

So it's your INTENTION to offend Christians?..... and you aren't looking at the possibility that Christianity, faith in Jesus Christ, is the only way to heaven, and that heaven is a real place, and that God is real?
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: bahramthered on April 04, 2009, 02:26:09 AM
Offend? Not really. I'm posting on an atheist board.

Do I believe in jesus (notice the small "j" the spell checker hates that so I have to force the issue), heaven, and the rest;

I have no belief in your myths. In fact I reject them on principal. I am rapidly beginning to  lose the quite acceptance of others, I use to have due to recent reading, and people like you. Feel free to take that however you want.



-I spent tonight debating a muslim and christian on the existence of god because I dared to bring a book to work. While they openly hated on another's beliefs they had no trouble tag teaming me. Shame they lost so bad.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: tbright on April 04, 2009, 02:30:18 AM
I have no belief in your myths. In fact I reject them on principal.

On principle? Even if they are true? You aren't interested in the truth?
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: bahramthered on April 04, 2009, 02:37:42 AM
What part of the word myth don't you get?

I have read the entirety of the bible. I spent months debating it with my "teacher", the pastor who deconverted me. I know the myths and the rationals behind them well.

Any god who would claim the bible is unworthy of respect, worship, or anything.

No evidence for the bible, much evidence against.
Not worthy of respect for his actions.
Insane for his requirements/beliefs.


Question Tbright, Why does god require you to both act in lock step with his will (while he hates his enemies) and love your enemies?
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: tbright on April 04, 2009, 02:40:32 AM
What part of the word myth don't you get?

Your claim of it being myth doesn't make it so. What if it turns out in 5 years we can prove that God exists and that the Bible was correct? You wouldn't accept it? Are that angry at God?
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: bahramthered on April 04, 2009, 02:49:35 AM
A: Because you say it's fact doesn't make it so.

B: And what if next year we prove god doesn't exist? (The guy who asks the "what if" question wins, if he has a decent question.)


You raise an intresting point. It's an shame you don't even realize it. I'm not angry at god, I don't think he exists. I'm angry at people like you for the way they try to push god down my throat. If god decided to descend down and show me he was real, unlike when  I was theist (twice) I would accept him. But he's never done anything to show me the possibility he's real.

And just for the record If I was you I would be very afraid there's a god. How much of the bible do you ignore to form you opinions? say witches, slaves, or shellfish? As someone who doesn't belief in the bible I wouldn't be in trouble if it's the work of man. You would. What do you wanna make a bet that people who conform to the fresh word of god get a better shot than those who argue wrong bible quotes?
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: tbright on April 04, 2009, 02:58:03 AM
You raise an intresting point. It's an shame you don't even realize it. I'm not angry at god, I don't think he exists. I'm angry at people like you for the way they try to push god down my throat.

I'm not trying to push anything on you. Believe or don't believe whatever you want. If you aren't interested, I don't have anything to say to you anyway. The OP misrepresented every Bible passage asserted. My response post was a counter to that one. If you were interested in hearing from me, you shouldn't have addressed me directly. Then when I respond to you, you claim I'm trying to "push God down your throat." At least be honest about the situation. With that, I have nothing further to say to you, except Good Day!
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: bahramthered on April 04, 2009, 03:00:58 AM
Yes you are. Your pushing your defense of god. Otherwise why are you here? Why bother yourself to be here?


-Still wondering about that decoder ring. Junk to literal truth settings included.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: tbright on April 04, 2009, 03:18:21 AM
Yes you are. Your pushing your defense of god. Otherwise why are you here? Why bother yourself to be here?

-Still wondering about that decoder ring. Junk to literal truth settings included.

I've already address these questions..... HERE (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=5013.msg107572#msg107572).

Good day.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: Airyaman on April 04, 2009, 04:53:06 AM
What a COMPLETE misrepresentation of verses! You have spewed so much trash here, I'd have to spend a week of my life explaining this to you in context of the Bible and the times. Because of your "hate mail," I'll simply pass on the whole. But I have chosen a simple one to make my point. You really need to join a Bible study if you want to attempt to assert something from the Bible. At least have some clue as to what the passage is about.

Dodge much? Oh yeah, its tbright...

Quote
#19 The Parable of the 10 Virgins (or Bridesmaids).
Your assertion: Preaching polygomy.
......<SNIP>

Heavily paraphrased from http://www.woodschapelonline.org/sermons/20031019_Sermon.html (http://www.woodschapelonline.org/sermons/20031019_Sermon.html). Why do Christians on here plagiarize so often?
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: Nam on April 04, 2009, 05:29:17 AM
^'Cause thinking for themselves is against God?

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: William on April 04, 2009, 05:33:20 AM
The parables and examples were based on local times and culture. The truth of those parables/examples is timeless.

Okay, since the "truth" of some parables can only be arrived at through concurrent study of material ("local times and culture") that relies on extra-biblical transmission and interpretation by 'experts' such as tbright, I'm reasonably confident in saying that this is yet another example that the bible, as a "timeless" communication system, is unintelligently designed.

At face value, in this day and age, Mathew 25 conveys an unambiguous acceptance of polygamy.  "Virgins" does not equal "bridesmaids" - ask any normal young male.  And from relatively modern norms of language for a man to "know" young girls implies something a lot stronger than just "recognise".  Translations may be letting us down - again whose problem is that?

Taken together with tbright's version of the cultural context, I'm open to thinking the polygamy connotation may not be accurate.  But some other scholar may produce a different context/interpretation again - so my mind will remain open.  Nevertheless Mathew 25 carries a fairly strange emphasis on the "virgins" and also sexual nuance - 5 girls behind a locked door with "sir" and another 5 eager to get in.  Why are 10 virgins likened unto the "kingdom of heaven" in the first place?  Male audience?  And the notion that 5 virgins were denied entry to the party for a very trivial oversight in the context of pre-party excitement comes across to me with the same vibe typical of a modern-day 'blonde joke'.

At this stage I'm picking this parable for a "sex sells" approach.  A guy talking to other guys in a guy sort of way to big-note his powers of attraction.  And the whole thing reported by a guy stuck in those male hegemonic times.
 
So the parable fails to impress me as the word of a God I could respect. As far as I'm concerned it stays on the list of teachings with an anti-woman sentiment.  Happy to listen to alternative views.

Reason for edit: typo.  where ->  were
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: Odin on April 04, 2009, 05:35:22 AM
Your claim of it being myth doesn't make it so. What if it turns out in 5 years we can prove that God exists and that the Bible was correct? You wouldn't accept it? Are that angry at God?

How would we prove the Bible is correct, in 5 years or 50? 

When god comes to me, personally, and reveals himself to me, then I'll believe.  Not YOUR revelation, not some badly written book, which has to be examined in minute detail to discover hidden meanings, and not some emotional rantings by others.  And, not some ambiguous healings by Benny Hinn. 

Jesus came to fulfill the OT law, not abolish it.  That means all the heinous commandments of the OT must be followed?

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

That means, among other things, you must not boil a kid in its mother's milk.

Odin, King of the Gods
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: tbright on April 04, 2009, 08:22:19 AM
Heavily paraphrased from http://www.woodschapelonline.org/sermons/20031019_Sermon.html (http://www.woodschapelonline.org/sermons/20031019_Sermon.html). Why do Christians on here plagiarize so often?

Are you accusing me of something? I've never seen nor been to that website in my life, at least not until you posted here. I simply copied/pasted from a lesson that I had used back in September.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: dmnemaine on April 04, 2009, 08:52:16 AM
You really need to join a Bible study if you want to attempt to assert something from the Bible.

Translated: "You need my magic Holy Spirit decoder ring to really understand the Bible."
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: dmnemaine on April 04, 2009, 08:56:43 AM
Your claim of it being myth doesn't make it so.

Your claim of it being fact doesn't make it so.  The fact that the bible claims itself to be fact doesn't make it so.  Works both ways.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: Erasmus on April 04, 2009, 09:25:35 AM
You didn't really do anything except confirm that my question was valid, tbright. If the bible is indeed timeless truth, then why does it need to be evaluated based on the times? Did God not know that it would be used today? Why didn't Jesus give a parable about nukes?
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: Airyaman on April 04, 2009, 10:03:42 AM
Heavily paraphrased from http://www.woodschapelonline.org/sermons/20031019_Sermon.html (http://www.woodschapelonline.org/sermons/20031019_Sermon.html). Why do Christians on here plagiarize so often?

Are you accusing me of something? I've never seen nor been to that website in my life, at least not until you posted here. I simply copied/pasted from a lesson that I had used back in September.

Was it a lesson you wrote, or from a book? If the latter, you still plagiarized. if the former, how did the website's author get YOUR lesson?
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: mommykicksbutt on April 04, 2009, 01:29:13 PM
What a COMPLETE misrepresentation of verses! You have spewed so much trash here, I'd have to spend a week of my life explaining this to you in context of the Bible and the times. Because of your "hate mail," I'll simply pass on the whole. But I have chosen a simple one to make my point. You really need to join a Bible study if you want to attempt to assert something from the Bible. At least have some clue as to what the passage is about.

Not trash but truth, look up the verses yourself.  And do not even try to lecture me sonny boy, I taught child and adult religious education for years.  I probably got more time on the toilet than you have in the pulpit.  I feel so sorry for you.  So blinded by your faith that you refuse to see the truth, in this case the truth seems to strike you as offencive.  If the shoe fits... good, if it hurts... even better!  Now try reading your bible books independently as a piece of literature and not as dogmatic faith.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: holybuckets on April 04, 2009, 01:57:46 PM
Mommykicksbutt...

Well, leave out the kicks and I think we are on the right track...
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: Crocoduck on April 04, 2009, 02:10:52 PM
Mommykicksbutt...

Well, leave out the kicks and I think we are on the right track...


nice. what's next? nanny nanny boo boo?
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: holybuckets on April 04, 2009, 02:17:34 PM
Mommykicksbutt...

Well, leave out the kicks and I think we are on the right track...


nice. what's next? nanny nanny boo boo?

great argument.. something I would expect from an atheist..

my point is.. being  polite-- mommy is as ass!

"2.   Jesus called out to two fishermen to be his disciples and they actually left their father mending the fishing nets without even a 'good-bye'.  4:21,22"

What does this have to do with salvation???

What does this have to do with Jesus being the Messiah?

Your arguments are asinine!!!

Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: bahramthered on April 04, 2009, 02:27:49 PM
How is abandoning your family to follow some guy who calls to you not asinine?
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: Crocoduck on April 04, 2009, 02:32:23 PM
if a guy walks up and says he's the messiah and wants people to follow him........ and they drop what theyre doing and go... isnt too bright.

sounds like a cult in the making.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: Airyaman on April 04, 2009, 02:37:13 PM
Mommykicksbutt...

Well, leave out the kicks and I think we are on the right track...


nice. what's next? nanny nanny boo boo?

great argument.. something I would expect from an atheist..

my point is.. being  polite-- mommy is as ass!

"2.   Jesus called out to two fishermen to be his disciples and they actually left their father mending the fishing nets without even a 'good-bye'.  4:21,22"

What does this have to do with salvation???

What does this have to do with Jesus being the Messiah?

Your arguments are asinine!!!



Read the thread title and the OP...neither have anything to do with messianic claims.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: snkiesch on April 04, 2009, 03:00:21 PM

Your claim of it being myth doesn't make it so. What if it turns out in 5 years we can prove that God exists and that the Bible was correct? You wouldn't accept it? Are that angry at God?


: What is a myth?

Answer: A myth is a story containing within and having about it certain identifiable characteristics. These are, specifically, that:

It is a religious story — no matter from which culture — and will therefore involve the existence and activities of a supernatural being, such as a god, a demigod, a goddess, or several such entities;

It will seek to explain at least some aspect of the origin or manner of things (where people came from, how rainbows first came to be, why whales have blow spouts, why people and animals feel hunger) if not of the very universe itself;

It is not an isolated tale but connects up in some significant way with other similar stories within a culture, involving other deities who collectively form a pantheon;

Its authorship is communally shared, that is, attributable to no single person, and it came into existence through oral tradition, and therefore usually has more than one version;

It is believed to be essentially true by those in the society for whom it is one part of a cultural mythology.
A story will have all of the above characteristics else it cannot

What isn't a myth about your god?  
http://urbanlegends.about.com/cs/folklore/f/mythology2.htm
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: mommykicksbutt on April 04, 2009, 04:24:04 PM
Again, just as a thought, the bible-thumpers are not answering what was asked...
Quote
Where do Christians get their exalted view of the "Christian" family?
My listing of scripture (only using Matthew in the op) shows that the NT and Jesus is very anti-family.  So how is it the "Christian's" can claim that they are living by "Christian family values" when obviously they are not.  Do you hate your family?  If you do then you are probably a christian, if you don't hate them then you should rethink your "christian" faith and what it really means to be a christian.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: tbright on April 04, 2009, 04:39:45 PM
What a COMPLETE misrepresentation of verses! You have spewed so much trash here, I'd have to spend a week of my life explaining this to you in context of the Bible and the times. Because of your "hate mail," I'll simply pass on the whole. But I have chosen a simple one to make my point. You really need to join a Bible study if you want to attempt to assert something from the Bible. At least have some clue as to what the passage is about.
Not trash but truth, look up the verses yourself.  And do not even try to lecture me sonny boy, I taught child and adult religious education for years.  I probably got more time on the toilet than you have in the pulpit.  I feel so sorry for you.  So blinded by your faith that you refuse to see the truth, in this case the truth seems to strike you as offencive.  If the shoe fits... good, if it hurts... even better!  Now try reading your bible books independently as a piece of literature and not as dogmatic faith.

I feel sorry for you because you will be judged more strictly as a (former) teacher (James 3:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=3&verse=1&version=31&context=verse)). Each of the verses you quoted were not new to me. One thing about the Bible is that it doesn't change. And regarding your toilet remark, that is where your OP belongs...... A 24-pack wouldn't be enough to wipe that up.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: Airyaman on April 04, 2009, 05:11:15 PM
I feel sorry for you because you will be judged more strictly as a (former) teacher (James 3:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=3&verse=1&version=31&context=verse)).

Are there different levels of eternal torment?

Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: tbright on April 04, 2009, 05:13:09 PM
I feel sorry for you because you will be judged more strictly as a (former) teacher (James 3:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=3&verse=1&version=31&context=verse)).

Are there different levels of eternal torment?

Absolutely
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: Airyaman on April 04, 2009, 05:21:35 PM
I feel sorry for you because you will be judged more strictly as a (former) teacher (James 3:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=3&verse=1&version=31&context=verse)).

Are there different levels of eternal torment?

Absolutely

Not good enough. Chapter(s) & verse(s).
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: mommykicksbutt on April 04, 2009, 06:49:57 PM
I feel sorry for you because you will be judged more strictly as a (former) teacher


Nope. Wrong again. Because god is imaginary, the judgement you speak of is a product of imagination, heaven again is imaginary, hell too is just a figment of imagination.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: bahramthered on April 04, 2009, 06:59:53 PM
To be more logical;

Tbright; You have yet to show that there is a judgment, how it works, the consequence, that former teachers receive any different treatment, or that your not insane.


Why? Because your only evidence is just some old book that claims it's the story of a savior.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: mommykicksbutt on April 04, 2009, 07:00:25 PM
Each of the verses you quoted were not new to me. One thing about the Bible is that it doesn't change. And regarding your toilet remark, that is where your OP belongs...... A 24-pack wouldn't be enough to wipe that up.

So, my OP uses the book of Matthew, and you think it belongs in the toilet!  Yahoo, I think you might be on to something here, I'll go along with you and agree that the book of Matthew and/or the bible belongs in the toilet. You're finally catching on TB.  The bible does have so many uses, you've just added one more... TP.  Thanks TB.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: bahramthered on April 04, 2009, 07:13:21 PM
I disagree. The pages are so rough that it doesn't work well for toilet paper. It's better for kindling. Discovered that nugget in boy scouts.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: mommykicksbutt on April 04, 2009, 08:36:40 PM
I disagree. The pages are so rough that it doesn't work well for toilet paper. It's better for kindling. Discovered that nugget in boy scouts.
So it fails at this too!  thanks bahramthered.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: tbright on April 04, 2009, 09:09:35 PM
Each of the verses you quoted were not new to me. One thing about the Bible is that it doesn't change. And regarding your toilet remark, that is where your OP belongs...... A 24-pack wouldn't be enough to wipe that up.
So, my OP uses the book of Matthew, and you think it belongs in the toilet!  Yahoo, I think you might be on to something here, I'll go along with you and agree that the book of Matthew and/or the bible belongs in the toilet. You're finally catching on TB.  The bible does have so many uses, you've just added one more... TP.  Thanks TB.

Your antics are predictable. However, you fail not only in your assessment of Bible verses, but also in your handling of the English language. Your OP belongs in the toilet, not the Bible. Yes, I feel that all blaspheme belongs in the toilet. The fact that you (poorly) attempted to use Bible passages to make your points is irrelevant. And why do you have so much toilet time? That would be more entertaining for this crowd. If you want to discuss something serious, let me know.

Done here.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: Star Stuff on April 04, 2009, 09:18:31 PM
mommykicksbutt:

Don't you know anything?  This is where christians get to claim "diplomatic immunity" (like that fat German guy in Lethal Weapon)............or:  These passages need to be "Spritualy discerned".

 ;)
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: mommykicksbutt on April 04, 2009, 09:35:51 PM
Your antics are predictable. However, you fail not only in your assessment of Bible verses, but also in your handling of the English language. Your OP belongs in the toilet, not the Bible. Yes, I feel that all blaspheme belongs in the toilet. The fact that you (poorly) attempted to use Bible passages to make your points is irrelevant. And why do you have so much toilet time? That would be more entertaining for this crowd. If you want to discuss something serious, let me know.

Done here.

Blasphemy is a victimless crime.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: mommykicksbutt on April 04, 2009, 09:38:57 PM
mommykicksbutt:

Don't you know anything?  This is where christians get to claim "diplomatic immunity" (like that fat German guy in Lethal Weapon)............or:  These passages need to be "Spritualy discerned".

 ;)

Star Stuff, thank you, for I have forgotten about the oft used "theocratic immunity" clause which is boasted by the religionist.  Thank for reminding me.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: Star Stuff on April 04, 2009, 09:45:43 PM
"theocratic immunity"

Oh, that's good.  I should have thought of that.

"Point!"
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: Nam on April 05, 2009, 06:42:23 AM
mommykicksbutt:

Don't you know anything?  This is where christians get to claim "diplomatic immunity" (like that fat German guy in Lethal Weapon)............or:  These passages need to be "Spritualy discerned".

 ;)

That fat guy was South African, wasn't he?

-Nam
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: Airyaman on April 05, 2009, 06:46:46 AM
Notice that Tbright did a whole lot of ranting and raving, yet never addressed a single point in the OP?
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: Nam on April 05, 2009, 06:48:27 AM
Notice that Tbright did a whole lot of ranting and raving, yet never addressed a single point in the OP?

What else does a guy like him have but to rant and rave and never answer a question posed to him that even he knows he can't answer?

-Nam
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: mommykicksbutt on April 05, 2009, 01:18:06 PM
Notice that Tbright did a whole lot of ranting and raving, yet never addressed a single point in the OP?

What else does a guy like him have but to rant and rave and never answer a question posed to him that even he knows he can't answer?

-Nam


And why is that everyone?... 

BECAUSE GOD IS IMAGINARY!!!!

tb can not apologise his way out of this.

(http://scottklarr.com/media/atheism/motivationalPosters/atheism_motivational_poster_4.jpg)
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: tbright on April 05, 2009, 01:51:56 PM
Notice that Tbright did a whole lot of ranting and raving, yet never addressed a single point in the OP?

What else does a guy like him have but to rant and rave and never answer a question posed to him that even he knows he can't answer?

Guys, are you blind or just being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative?

I've stated I'm not wasting my time in this thread. It doesn't warrant any attention.

I addressed ONE POINT to make my point, so your character assassination above is completely unfounded and UNTRUE! See my post HERE (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=5497.msg121948#msg121948).
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: bahramthered on April 05, 2009, 01:59:23 PM
No. We're being argumentative since you haven't proved your point and have basically fallen into this pattern of saying listen to me or else. We don't respect phoned in responses. If case you also haven't' noticed we only start amusing ourselves at your expense is when you fall back into this "I'm right and already proved it" adittude. 

Not to mention your the one who decided the OP deserved to be the toilet, hence starting the toliet talk. (Okay mommykicksbutt opened the door but you ran through it)
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: Crocoduck on April 05, 2009, 01:59:52 PM
the problem is that you didnt address the point, you told a long story and made up some justification for the number 10. you explained nothing.

if you want to address polygamy then do so.

Genesis 4:19
And Lamech took unto him two wives.
Genesis 16:1-4
Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. And Sarai ... gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived.
Genesis 25:6
But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had....
Genesis 26:34
Esau ... took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Bashemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite.
Genesis 31:17
Then Jacob rose up, and set ... his wives upon camels.
Exodus 21:10
If he take him another wife....
Deuteronomy 21:15
If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated....
Judges 8:30
And Gideon had threescore and ten sons of his body begotten: for he had many wives.
1 Samuel 1:1-2
Elkanah ... had two wives; the name of the one was Hannah, and the name of the other Peninnah.
2 Samuel 12:7-8
Thus saith the LORD God of Israel ... I gave thee ... thy master's wives....
1 Kings 11:2-3
Solomon ... had seven hundred wives ... and three hundred concubines.
1 Chronicles 4:5
And Ashur the father of Tekoa had two wives, Helah and Naarah.
2 Chronicles 11:21
Rehoboam ... took eighteen wives, and threescore concubines.
2 Chronicles 13:21
But Abijah waxed mighty, and married fourteen wives....
2 Chronicles 24:3
Jehoiada took for him two wives....
Mt.25:1
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: mommykicksbutt on April 05, 2009, 02:04:38 PM
tb, those 19 passages listed in the op where for support of only one (1) point, the question...

So how is it the "Christian's" can claim that they are living by "Christian family values" when obviously they are not.  Do you hate your family?  If you do then you are probably a christian, if you don't hate them then you should rethink your "christian" faith and what it really means to be a christian.

This you have failed to address.

As for your focus on passage list #19, in the time and context for the original audience for which Matthew was written, polygamy was an acceptable and common practice.  In most modern societies it is abhorrent.  Given these facts, how can you say the bible is "timeless?"  Are you cherry-picking again?
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: mommykicksbutt on April 05, 2009, 02:06:54 PM
Crocoduck,

Good follow-up support for the op, thanks!
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: Airyaman on April 05, 2009, 02:24:25 PM
Notice that Tbright did a whole lot of ranting and raving, yet never addressed a single point in the OP?

What else does a guy like him have but to rant and rave and never answer a question posed to him that even he knows he can't answer?

Guys, are you blind or just being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative?

I've stated I'm not wasting my time in this thread. It doesn't warrant any attention.

I addressed ONE POINT to make my point, so your character assassination above is completely unfounded and UNTRUE! See my post HERE (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=5497.msg121948#msg121948).

And I pointed out that you plagiarized that.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: Count Iblis on April 05, 2009, 02:44:10 PM
19.   Jesus tells polygamy parable without censure when he compares the kingdom of heaven to ten virgins who went to meet their bridegroom. 25:1  10 wives for 1 man is not a modern Christian family value.

Putting aside the question of whether this is about polygamy, I can't understand this parable at all. First Jesus says the Kingdom of Heaven is like 10 virgins and then wastes no time forgetting that he was drawing a parallel between the Kingdom of Heaven and the 10 virgins. Instead, half of the virgins get shut out of the Kingdom of Heaven. The virgins apparently represent the Jews. But what the heck is the oil representative of? Good works? If so, then Paul seems to get the whole thing wrong because he preaches about salvation through grace and that good works can't get you salvation. Further, if it is good works, then what's the message? You'll get shut out of Heaven if you're busy doing good works when Jesus returns. So that doesn't make any sense at all. Or maybe the oil is faith. But how does one go and  buy faith from those who sell it?

It's no wonder why Luke and John didn't include this story in their gospels.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: mommykicksbutt on April 08, 2009, 07:47:25 PM
I seriously doubt you'll get an answer from any of the holy-rollers here because they don't know themselves either.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: Crocoduck on April 09, 2009, 05:48:27 AM
if im not mistaken its supposed to mean you should have you ducks in a row at all times because jesus could return at any time, so be prepared (if you believe in that sort of thing).
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: mommykicksbutt on April 09, 2009, 11:28:09 AM
but what does the "oil" signify?
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: ThePhilosopher on April 09, 2009, 12:31:39 PM
NT & Jesus' Family Values

Contrary to current popular Christian belief, the NT and Jesus are/were not supporters of family values.  Where do Christians get their exalted view of the "Christian" family?  The NT contains numerous acts of anti-family values.  Within the NT, Jesus treats his mother and siblings with such disrespect and a total lack of affection that it should be deemed immoral.  We can also assume that he never married or had any children, (thank goodness!)  Jesus instructs those who wish to be his followers to abandon and hate their own families. 

The attitude of Jesus toward women in general is ambiguous in the extreme.  At times, he seems to regard them as they exist under the Mosaic Law.  Jesus upholds the law.  Sexism on his part cannot be condoned.  He supposedly came to earth as the moral example for all time to come.  Although mistreatment of women might have been the custom of the day, Jesus' behavior standards should surely have been timeless and they were anything but.

In Matthew alone, there are nineteen instances of anti-family values.  (redacted from the Skeptic's Annotated Bible, Woes to the Women the Bible Tells Me So by Annie Laurie Gaylor, and The Born Again Skeptic's Guide to the Bible by Ruth Hurmence Green)

In Matthew:

1.   The Holy Ghost knocks up a young woman, Mary. 1:18

2.   Jesus called out to two fishermen to be his disciples and they actually left their father mending the fishing nets without even a 'good-bye'.  4:21,22

3.   Jesus came to uphold the OT law, not reform it. 5:17-18. So Jesus supports all the anti-family and misogynistic laws in the OT.

4.   Mutilate yourself if you "lust in your heart."  5:28-29.  So if you lust after any woman you must pluck out your eyes so you won't go to hell.  Another misogynistic passage making women (wife, sister, daughter, mother, etc. look bad to men).

5.   Divorce double standard 5:32.  You can divorce your wife but you can't marry a divorced women.

6.   Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21

7.   Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21

8.   Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.  And a man's foes shall be they of his own household" 10:34-36

9.   Jesus warns us not to love our parents or children too much. We have to make sure that we always love him (who we don't even know existed) more than our family. 10:37

10.   Jesus was very uncivil when his mother and his brothers waited at the edge of a crowd to speak to him, posing a question to his disciples: 'Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?"  and indicating that the disciples were now his family.  Then he added that all who do the will of God, "the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." 12:47-49

11.   Jesus and his followers are criticized by the Pharisees and scribes for not washing their hands before eating. Instead of addressing their concern, Jesus goes on the attack, "And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?  For God said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and , 'Whoever speaks evil of father or mother must surely die.'"  (Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) He then calls them names, "You hypocrites!"  He attacks them for not killing disobedient children when all they quizzed him on was their dirty hands when they eat. 15:4-7

12.   Gentile woman and daughter called "dogs" by Jesus. 15:22-26.  Again, Jesus, the women hater.

13.   In the parable of the unforgiving servant, the king threatens to enslave a man and his entire family to pay for a debt. This practice, which was common at the time, seems not to have bothered Jesus very much. 18:25

14.   "One flesh" marriage, implying no divorce allowed. 19:6

15.   Eunuchs be praised!  If you can be one then go for it!  This is a sure guarantee of no-fatherhood. 19:12

16.   "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters of father or mother or children or fields, for my name's sake, will receive a hundred fold and will inherit eternal life."  Moral here is abandon your family and your children for Jesus and he'll give you a big reward. 19:29

17.   Jesus tells us to "call no man your father upon the earth." Not even dear old dad? How can we "honor our father" if we refuse to call him our father? 23:9

18.   "Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days." Why? Does God especially hate pregnant and nursing women? 24:19

19.   Jesus tells polygamy parable without censure when he compares the kingdom of heaven to ten virgins who went to meet their bridegroom. 25:1  10 wives for 1 man is not a modern Christian family value.

Shall I go on to Mark?  Luke?  John?  Acts?  Romans? And so forth?

My point is that Jesus is no role model and that he was anti-family.  So why do Christians push this crap about "Christian family values" when these "values" are non-existent in the bible but are really innate values within them?



you are dumb.
keep looking for holes in a whole.
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: mommykicksbutt on April 09, 2009, 05:50:25 PM
But what is the whole? ... it is the sum of its parts!  Your god can not fill these holes left by Jesus (except with man-concocted dogma). If you are in support of families and given this info in the scriptures then Jesus is a not a man worthy of following.  To say Jesus was pro-family is not only dumb, but it is dim-witted, obtuse, ridiculous, and foolish!
Title: Re: NT & Jesus' Family Values
Post by: Hermes on April 09, 2009, 06:40:14 PM
Why does timeless truth need to be explained in the context of the times?

Did you ever read about the parable Jesus taught regarding the nuclear explosion? Hmmmm...

The parables and examples were based on local times and culture. The truth of those parables/examples is timeless.

Yet, they generally had a subset of what we know now.  So, as Erasmus asked;

Why does timeless truth need to be explained in the context of the times?

The question is not invalidated by automobiles or atom bombs.