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Main Discussion Zone => General Religious Discussion => Topic started by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 02:20:25 PM

Title: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 02:20:25 PM
The subject come often during the many replies I post. Since the answer is the same, I thought I would create a Thread that I could link to.
My statement is the following.
God is omnipotent indeed. He chose to not interfere directly without our consent in our lives because he created us free. He decided that being free is more important than all the sin in the world. It might not be the case one day, and that day might be the end of the world.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: One Above All on May 21, 2014, 02:22:59 PM
An omnipotent god could eliminate sin while maintaining free will. In fact, an omnipotent god could do anything. The fact that "he" doesn't shows that he's malevolent.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: eh! on May 21, 2014, 03:01:48 PM
So why did he create free will AND sin, like he was taunting us.


is creation amusent or a social experiment for god.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: epidemic on May 21, 2014, 03:03:17 PM
Facts according to the christian faithful.

God is all knowing
God is all powerful
God is able to see all things at all times past present and future.
You cant change gods plan

You create something you know everything about it, you set the rules, you enforce the rules, nothing can deviate from your plan, where is free will in there.

If we are living in this movie do the characters recorded on film actually have any choice?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: eh! on May 21, 2014, 03:17:37 PM
I asked MM if god knew i was going to get dig bit. he made fun of the question if memory serves.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: skeptic54768 on May 21, 2014, 04:11:31 PM
Situation 1:

Atheist: Why does God allow evil?
Christian: Free will.
Atheist: but that makes no sense because x, y, z, a, b, c etc etc etc.
Christian: You just don't understand Christianity.

Situation 2:

Christian: Where's the evidence for evolution?
Atheist: Right here.
Christian: but that makes no sense because x, y, z, a, b, c, etc etc etc.
Atheist: You just don't understand evolution.


Quite interesting, isn't it?  :o

Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Ron Jeremy on May 21, 2014, 04:23:53 PM
He chose to not interfere directly without our consent in our lives because he created us free.

So if I am kidnapped and held hostage in a basement, all I have to do is give my consent to Biblegod and he will help me? Or does the kidnapper also have to give his consent to allow Biblegod to interfere?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: One Above All on May 21, 2014, 04:31:33 PM
So if I am kidnapped and held hostage in a basement, all I have to do is give my consent to Biblegod and he will help me? Or does the kidnapper also have to give his consent to allow Biblegod to interfere?

You know, this whole "consent" thing sounds like a demon deal from Supernatural. Like how the special children's parents had to give Azazel "permission" to do something. Or how crossroads demons take people's souls if the people give their consent. Angels need consent when taking a host, but they don't give the host anything in return. In fact, from what Jimmy Novak (Castiel's host) said, it's quite unpleasant.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 04:44:55 PM
So why did he create free will AND sin, like he was taunting us.
is creation amusent or a social experiment for god.
Sin is not a creation. It is the consequence of saying "no" to God.
Creation is neither an amusement nor a social experiment for God. The closest I found to explain on the why God created the universe is the answer to why do we have babies.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 21, 2014, 04:45:19 PM
The subject come often during the many replies I post. Since the answer is the same, I thought I would create a Thread that I could link to.
My statement is the following.
God is omnipotent indeed. He chose to not interfere directly without our consent in our lives because he created us free. He decided that being free is more important than all the sin in the world. It might not be the case one day, and that day might be the end of the world.
Who has more freedom - a 6-year old with terminal cancer or a 6-year old without terminal cancer?
Who has more freedom - a woman currently being raped or a woman not currently being raped?
Who has more freedom - a man paralyzed from the waist down or a man not paralyzed from the waist down?
Who has more freedom - the woman who can instantly teleport to any location she desires or the woman who cannot instantly teleport to any location she desires?
Who has more freedom - the human being constrained by the laws of physics or the omnipotent god unconstrained by the laws of physics?

Perhaps you need to be more explicit in what you mean by 'free'.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 04:47:49 PM
Facts according to the christian faithful.

God is all knowing - I agree
God is all powerful - I agree
God is able to see all things at all times past present and future. - I agree
You cant change gods plan - I disagree
My answers in bold.
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You create something you know everything about it, you set the rules, you enforce the rules, nothing can deviate from your plan, where is free will in there.
See the answers above.
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If we are living in this movie do the characters recorded on film actually have any choice?
Yes. There is more than one film.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 04:49:44 PM
So if I am kidnapped and held hostage in a basement, all I have to do is give my consent to Biblegod and he will help me? Or does the kidnapper also have to give his consent to allow Biblegod to interfere?
Unfortunately the second case. The kidnapper must give his consent too.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 21, 2014, 04:50:39 PM
If we are living in this movie do the characters recorded on film actually have any choice?
Yes. There is more than one film.
I smell a solipsism gambit in the near future...
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: One Above All on May 21, 2014, 04:51:49 PM
Unfortunately the second case. The kidnapper must give his consent too.

So by this... "logic", nobody can ever get anything. Ever. Because any action your god undertakes will affect more than one person. In fact, it will affect the entire timeline. Unless "he" chooses not to affect the entire timeline, but still do something, which, as I've said in my first post in this thread, is possible with omnipotence.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Jag on May 21, 2014, 04:53:00 PM
The subject come often during the many replies I post. Since the answer is the same, I thought I would create a Thread that I could link to.
My statement is the following.
God is omnipotent indeed.
Ok, whatever. I'll grant this as a given premise for the sake of discussion.

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He chose to not interfere directly without our consent in our lives because he created us free.
And you base these assumptions on what? You've listed several of them in a single sentence, and I'm interested n how you determined that they are in fact true. Be specific please.

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He decided that being free is more important than all the sin in the world.

Same question as above - what is the basis for you to make this assumption? Again, be specific.

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It might not be the case one day, and that day might be the end of the world.

So far, everything you've said is not established as anything other than your opinion, so what "might" happen "someday" is not relevant yet. Let's work on determining if you have any idea what you're talking about NOW before projecting into the future.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 05:04:20 PM
Who has more freedom - a 6-year old with terminal cancer or a 6-year old without terminal cancer?
Who has more freedom - a woman currently being raped or a woman not currently being raped?
Who has more freedom - a man paralyzed from the waist down or a man not paralyzed from the waist down?
Who has more freedom - the woman who can instantly teleport to any location she desires or the woman who cannot instantly teleport to any location she desires?
Who has more freedom - the human being constrained by the laws of physics or the omnipotent god unconstrained by the laws of physics?
I believe that you have the answer to these questions.
I will have to underline some of the facts that you might have oversee.
a woman currently being raped is raped by someone who exerted his free will.
Teleportation and defying the laws of physics have not been invented yet, but we are getting there.
The sick and the ill of our society are the results of others (or themselves) free will that has been exerted. (the terminal cancer women smoke cigarette for example or might have eaten cancer food, the paralyzed jumped from the third floor or might have been pushed from there...etc)

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Perhaps you need to be more explicit in what you mean by 'free'.
I hope this will help understand what I mean by free will.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 05:08:22 PM
So by this... "logic", nobody can ever get anything. Ever. Because any action your god undertakes will affect more than one person. In fact, it will affect the entire timeline. Unless "he" chooses not to affect the entire timeline, but still do something, which, as I've said in my first post in this thread, is possible with omnipotence.
By default, people say yes to good things. If god propose you something good you can say yes or no. If you say yes you will be happier than if you say no, and people around you will benefit from this joy that you have. Look at Mother Theresa, that's exactly what she did, she said "yes" again and again. And god "used" her to do good in this world.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: eh! on May 21, 2014, 05:11:01 PM
Outstanding logic luk. i am currently reviewing my atheist position in light of such stellar reasoning.

your logic is impeccable and your thesis both compelling and moving.


you sir are a prophet.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: One Above All on May 21, 2014, 05:13:54 PM
(the terminal cancer women smoke cigarette for example or might have eaten cancer food, the paralyzed jumped from the third floor or might have been pushed from there...etc)

People can get lung cancer without smoking, you know.
What in Allah's name is "cancer food"?
Paralyzed people can be born paralyzed, or, such as is the case with Stephen Hawking, be born with a genetic disorder that slowly paralyzes them.

By default, people say yes to good things. If god propose you something good you can say yes or no.

So your god does interfere with free will. Almost nobody in their right mind would reject a proposition from an omnipotent being. That'd be like rejecting a mobster's offer/proposition to... pretty much anything.

If you say yes you will be happier than if you say no, and people around you will benefit from this joy that you have. Look at Mother Theresa, that's exactly what she did, she said "yes" again and again. And god "used" her to do good in this world.

So be selfish. Do things not because they make other people happy, but because they make you happy. Gotcha.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 05:19:24 PM
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He chose to not interfere directly without our consent in our lives because he created us free.
And you base these assumptions on what? You've listed several of them in a single sentence, and I'm interested n how you determined that they are in fact true. Be specific please.
On personal experience and testimony.
I knew they were true when I put them to the test.
Test of me being created free : I can say no to him. If I wasn't free I couldn't say no to him.
Test of him not interfering without my consent : I have many examples of this in my life. I can give you one. I just prayed that you believed in God right now. Do you believe?
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He decided that being free is more important than all the sin in the world.
Same question as above - what is the basis for you to make this assumption? Again, be specific.
The old testament tell us about the story of Adam and Eve. God could have remove their freedom and they would never ate the forbidden fruit but he did not. Why? Because being free is more important than all the sin in the world.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: dloubet on May 21, 2014, 05:24:28 PM
Does having a gun put to one's head interfere with one's free will?

If yes, how is the threat of hell any different?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: One Above All on May 21, 2014, 05:24:59 PM
An omnipotent god could eliminate sin while maintaining free will. In fact, an omnipotent god could do anything. The fact that "he" doesn't shows that he's malevolent.

Lukvance, I see you ignored this post. Mind explaining why? At first I thought you were replying to posts in a random order, but now I'm thinking something else.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 05:34:23 PM
Does having a gun put to one's head interfere with one's free will?
If yes, how is the threat of hell any different?
Yes. There is no threat of hell. Hell is a consequence of the choices you make. Like pulling the trigger has for consequence you going to jail. Saying no to God has for consequence you going to hell.
Should we allow killers to kill without putting them to jail?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 05:37:05 PM
An omnipotent god could eliminate sin while maintaining free will. In fact, an omnipotent god could do anything. The fact that "he" doesn't shows that he's malevolent.
Lukvance, I see you ignored this post. Mind explaining why? At first I thought you were replying to posts in a random order, but now I'm thinking something else.
There was no question in there. Only you saying stuff. I usually don't respond to stuff. If you had asked me If I agree I would have said no. If you had ask me why I would have said because me not doing something doesn't mean that I am malevolent.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: One Above All on May 21, 2014, 07:57:19 PM
There was no question in there. Only you saying stuff. I usually don't respond to stuff. If you had asked me If I agree I would have said no. If you had ask me why I would have said because me not doing something doesn't mean that I am malevolent.

Amazing how you always manage to boil down a post to its most irrelevant (to the discussion) part.
I showed you why your reasoning was faulty. Omnipotence is not bound by our logic. If your god wanted to make it so that 1 + 1 = 3, "he" could do so. If "he" wanted to make it so toilet paper re-grew on an empty roll, "he" could do so. If "he" wanted to make it so there was no sin, but still maintain freedom, "he" could do so. Either accept this fact (which would crumble your OP), or debunk it.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 21, 2014, 08:36:10 PM
Who has more freedom - a 6-year old with terminal cancer or a 6-year old without terminal cancer?
Who has more freedom - a woman currently being raped or a woman not currently being raped?
Who has more freedom - a man paralyzed from the waist down or a man not paralyzed from the waist down?
Who has more freedom - the woman who can instantly teleport to any location she desires or the woman who cannot instantly teleport to any location she desires?
Who has more freedom - the human being constrained by the laws of physics or the omnipotent god unconstrained by the laws of physics?
I believe that you have the answer to these questions.
I will have to underline some of the facts that you might have oversee.
a woman currently being raped is raped by someone who exerted his free will.
First of all, you skipped the 6-year old with terminal cancer example.  I'm sure you have a valid reason for doing so.

Secondly, yes.  And he is impeding the woman's free will.  She has less free will, and god apparently doesn't really care.

Besides that, what would be wrong with, at the very moment the rapist commits to the act...or, hell, even 100ms after he commits to the act and begins causing harm...why wouldn't god just sorta *poof* the rapist away?  The rapist made and was able to fully decide to act to commit rape.  Why bother continuing letting the woman suffer (during the act and for the rest of her life thereafter) beyond that?

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Teleportation and defying the laws of physics have not been invented yet, but we are getting there.
And you dismiss the question with this answer.  I'm beginning to suspect that this is intentional on your part.  The point of the question is to get you to better clarify this 'free' thing you're talking about.  You're using it in a very open-ended manner, and as best as I could tell initially you're referring to 'free' as 'ability to choose to do something - or think something, believe something'.  But essentially 'free' to 'do'.  But I don't think that's what you mean.  Well, I don't think so, because otherwise the obvious answer to this question is that the woman who has the ability to instantly be where she wants to be has many, many more options that she can 'do' over the woman who cannot teleport.  The former woman is free to decide to be on the surface of Neptune.  The woman who cannot teleport is severely constrained in doing that.  At best she can decide to want to go, but she cannot.  She is barred from being on the surface of Neptune.  Teleportation woman is not barred from being on the surface of Neptune - she could be there if she wanted to.

So I think you need to better explain what you mean by 'free'.

As an aside, I would like to point out that humanity has yet to succeed in defying the laws of physics.  We merely exploit them.  So I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that time when we defy the laws of physics.  Perhaps you mean when we get a better understanding of the laws of physics, possibly displacing some of our current understanding of the laws of physics making possible that which we previously thought was not.

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The sick and the ill of our society are the results of others (or themselves) free will that has been exerted. (the terminal cancer women smoke cigarette for example or might have eaten cancer food, the paralyzed jumped from the third floor or might have been pushed from there...etc)
I have to believe that you recognize that misfortune befalls those that do not 'egg it on'.  You know, like birth defects and the like.  I mean, do you recognize that misfortune happens like that, or do you actually believe that everyone is in some way responsible for the bad crap that happens to them?  Because - no sh*t - that's some massive lack of empathy and compassion.

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Perhaps you need to be more explicit in what you mean by 'free'.
I hope this will help understand what I mean by free will.
Nope.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 08:46:08 PM
There was no question in there. Only you saying stuff. I usually don't respond to stuff. If you had asked me If I agree I would have said no. If you had ask me why I would have said because me not doing something doesn't mean that I am malevolent.

Amazing how you always manage to boil down a post to its most irrelevant (to the discussion) part.
I showed you why your reasoning was faulty. Omnipotence is not bound by our logic. If your god wanted to make it so that 1 + 1 = 3, "he" could do so. If "he" wanted to make it so toilet paper re-grew on an empty roll, "he" could do so. If "he" wanted to make it so there was no sin, but still maintain freedom, "he" could do so. Either accept this fact (which would crumble your OP), or debunk it.
You are playing with words. Have you ever heard the following question : "Could God create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it?" you are doing The same thing with" if "he" wanted to make it so there was no sin, but still maintain freedom, "he" could do so"
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: One Above All on May 21, 2014, 08:49:12 PM
You are playing with words. Have you ever heard the following question : "Could God create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it?" you are doing The same thing with" if "he" wanted to make it so there was no sin, but still maintain freedom, "he" could do so"

That (what you're comparing my argument to) is called the "omnipotence paradox". My argument is not a paradox. Just because we can't conceive of something doesn't make it any less real. A long time ago, we couldn't conceive of atoms or photons. Does that mean they didn't exist?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 09:06:29 PM
First of all, you skipped the 6-year old with terminal cancer example.  I'm sure you have a valid reason for doing so.

Yes. He could live in a house full of carcinogenic mold. Not his choice.
And he is impeding the woman's free will.  She has less free will, and god apparently doesn't really care.

Oh he cares a lot. Even More than you do. "The man has more power than the woman" is the key part in this particular case power not free will. And this is evolution right? survival of the fittest? Isn't that why men has more power than women and can force their will unto some of them?
God created Adam and Eve equal, their sin made them different.
Little by little society is growing back to this state when men are equal to women. Don't you agree?
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why wouldn't god just sorta *poof* the rapist away?  The rapist made and was able to fully decide to act to commit rape.

That is against the rapist choice a choice that he made freely.
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And you dismiss the question with this answer.

No dismissal. You are talking about stuff that does not exist (yet) these things would exist in a perfect world (like the one of the Eden Garden) But now we don't have them. It's our punishment, living and dying and being "trapped" by laws of physics.
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So I think you need to better explain what you mean by 'free'.

Freedom of choice. Free to chose. Does that help?
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As an aside, I would like to point out that humanity has yet to succeed in defying the laws of physics.  We merely exploit them.  So I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that time when we defy the laws of physics.  Perhaps you mean when we get a better understanding of the laws of physics, possibly displacing some of our current understanding of the laws of physics making possible that which we previously thought was not.
laws of physics told us one day that there was only 5 elements. They evolved since. People today showing things to people back then would make them tell us that we defy the laws of physics.

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I have to believe that you recognize that misfortune befalls those that do not 'egg it on'.  You know, like birth defects and the like.  I mean, do you recognize that misfortune happens like that, or do you actually believe that everyone is in some way responsible for the bad crap that happens to them?  Because - no sh*t - that's some massive lack of empathy and compassion.
Misfortune happens "like that". I believe that it is the devils work but hey I'm a christian :)
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 09:08:56 PM
You are playing with words. Have you ever heard the following question : "Could God create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it?" you are doing The same thing with" if "he" wanted to make it so there was no sin, but still maintain freedom, "he" could do so"

That (what you're comparing my argument to) is called the "omnipotence paradox". My argument is not a paradox. Just because we can't conceive of something doesn't make it any less real. A long time ago, we couldn't conceive of atoms or photons. Does that mean they didn't exist?
Yes, I believe they exist.
Your question is using the "omnipotence paradox". It's not because you say otherwise that it doesn't.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on May 21, 2014, 09:09:21 PM
Sin does not matter as Jesus has paid for ALL sin,if he paid for just a believers sin he wasted his time.

 Has Jesus paid for all sin,yes or no?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lectus on May 21, 2014, 09:13:25 PM
For sin to happen it must be possible in some way. Why did God invent sin anyway?

He could have created creatures incapable of sinning, yet having free will.

For example, if sex without marriage is a sin he could have made our dicks never work without marriage.

Why complicate with this punishment stuff? We wouldn't need the bible if God's will was embedded in us.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on May 21, 2014, 09:15:44 PM
how can you control the masses without fear?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 10:17:20 PM
Has Jesus paid for all sin,yes or no?
Yes. And sins does matter.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 10:24:23 PM
For sin to happen it must be possible in some way. Why did God invent sin anyway?
He did not invent sin.

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He could have created creatures incapable of sinning, yet having free will.

Of course he could. But as I told one above all using the "omnipotence paradox". Its just word play. Sin is the result of free will.
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Why complicate with this punishment stuff? We wouldn't need the bible if God's will was embedded in us.
Punishment? You don't get punished you get the consequence of your acts.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: eh! on May 21, 2014, 10:52:27 PM
Did sin exist before creation?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 11:46:26 PM
Did sin exist before creation?
The first so sin is Satan and his angels. They said "no" to God. So no, sin was there after the creation of angels.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 22, 2014, 12:04:20 AM
For sin to happen it must be possible in some way. Why did God invent sin anyway?
He did not invent sin.

How do you know this? You believe that the stories in the OT are just stories. It seems logical that God must have created EVERYTHING.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 22, 2014, 12:13:14 AM
Sin is the result of free will.

Things can sin without free will. They have to. The ecosystem is built around kill or be killed. It's a sin when a bunch of bees sting an animal to death. No idiot would say that insects have free will. It's a sin when a fig tree lands on another tree and suffocates it out of existence.

You have defined sin and free will to be what you want them to be.

Please show evidence at any point.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: eh! on May 22, 2014, 12:51:17 AM
Cool sin existed before creation of the universe. did sin exist before creation of the angels?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Jesuis on May 22, 2014, 01:15:01 AM
My argument is not a paradox. Just because we can't conceive of something doesn't make it any less real. A long time ago, we couldn't conceive of atoms or photons. Does that mean they didn't exist?
Theists have been saying the same about God to the atheists for ages. How many actually follow what they told them?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: One Above All on May 22, 2014, 03:07:31 AM
Your question is using the "omnipotence paradox". It's not because you say otherwise that it doesn't.

It's not. It's using the definition of omnipotence in a non-paradoxical way. Again, just because you can't conceive of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Argumentum ad ignorantiam.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: dloubet on May 22, 2014, 03:37:37 AM
Quote from: Magicmiles
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There is no threat of hell. Hell is a consequence of the choices you make.

No. It is a threat. The concept of hell constitutes an attempt to coerce your actions with the threat of punishment. Fire and brimstone can be a motivator.

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Should we allow killers to kill without putting them to jail?

Jail is what society threatens killers with to try to prevent them from killing. Hell serves the same function. It is clearly a threat designed to coerce desired behaviors.

Your use of the word "consequence" would mean that getting shot would merely be "a consequence" of not doing what the guy holding you at gunpoint wants you to do. If that's not a violation of free will, then what is?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: One Above All on May 22, 2014, 03:39:14 AM
Quote from: Magicmiles
<snip>

Which thread is this from? And why are you posting it here?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 22, 2014, 08:03:21 AM
First of all, you skipped the 6-year old with terminal cancer example.  I'm sure you have a valid reason for doing so.

Yes. He could live in a house full of carcinogenic mold. Not his choice.
And god doesn't alleviate this terminal cancer that the 6-year old has because...?

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And he is impeding the woman's free will.  She has less free will, and god apparently doesn't really care.

Oh he cares a lot. Even More than you do. "The man has more power than the woman" is the key part in this particular case power not free will. And this is evolution right? survival of the fittest? Isn't that why men has more power than women and can force their will unto some of them?
God created Adam and Eve equal, their sin made them different.
Little by little society is growing back to this state when men are equal to women. Don't you agree?
Why did you capitalize the word 'more' above?

Regardless, I'm not exactly sure what your point is with the above.  And I'm really not sure that we're using the word 'care' in the same way.  Because if person A would stop a rape in progress and person B would not stop a rape in progress, then I would say that person A was a more caring person than person B.  I'd feel even worse about person B if he told me he wouldn't stop the rape in progress because he wouldn't want to impede on the rapist's free will.

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why wouldn't god just sorta *poof* the rapist away?  The rapist made and was able to fully decide to act to commit rape.

That is against the rapist choice a choice that he made freely.
Which choice?  In my example, god is totally letting the rapist decide to 'rape' or 'not rape'.  That choice isn't being taken away from the rapist.

I'm rather sure that being raped was against the woman's choice, in the same way that I'm rather sure that getting terminal cancer was against the 6-year old's choice.

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And you dismiss the question with this answer.

No dismissal. You are talking about stuff that does not exist (yet) these things would exist in a perfect world (like the one of the Eden Garden) But now we don't have them. It's our punishment, living and dying and being "trapped" by laws of physics.
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So I think you need to better explain what you mean by 'free'.

Freedom of choice. Free to chose. Does that help?
I didn't choose to be 'trapped' by the laws of physics.  I DIDN'T EXIST YET.  According to you, the entirety of humanity is suffering the consequences for actions that none of us had any choice over.  You can claim that god is a supporter of free choice all day long, but you keep coming up with these excuses and defenses that sound like an entity that doesn't give a sh*t about freedom of choice.

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Misfortune happens "like that". I believe that it is the devils work but hey I'm a christian :)
So the devil can do 'bad sh*t' to people against their free will.  Maybe like give a 6-year old terminal cancer or some such.  The devil can do 'bad sh*t' that reduces peoples freedom, like perhaps a debilitating birth defect.  And god does nothing in response.

Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Jag on May 22, 2014, 08:15:49 AM
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He chose to not interfere directly without our consent in our lives because he created us free.
And you base these assumptions on what? You've listed several of them in a single sentence, and I'm interested n how you determined that they are in fact true. Be specific please.
On personal experience and testimony.
I knew they were true when I put them to the test.
Test of me being created free : I can say no to him. If I wasn't free I couldn't say no to him.
Test of him not interfering without my consent : I have many examples of this in my life. I can give you one. I just prayed that you believed in God right now. Do you believe?

No.

Now what? Do we need to schedule a time so that I'm paying attention at the right moment, to see if for just a few seconds I believe in your god when you pray for me do so? Should I think really hard about believing in your god at the same time? Experiments are good, let's try a few.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: epidemic on May 22, 2014, 08:45:04 AM
I knew they were true when I put them to the test.
Test of me being created free : I can say no to him. If I wasn't free I couldn't say no to him.
Test of him not interfering without my consent : I have many examples of this in my life. I can give you one. I just prayed that you believed in God right now. Do you believe?

Is it really exercising free will if God designed you knowing full well that you would say no to this question at 9:44 Eastern standard time 5/22/2014?  It may appear like free will to you but if it is a forgone conclusion by design then I see no free will exercised.  I only see inescapable destiny.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Graybeard on May 22, 2014, 09:04:39 AM
Did sin exist before creation?
The first so sin is Satan and his angels. They said "no" to God. So no, sin was there after the creation of angels.
So, let's get this right:

God makes angels and they rebel. Their sentence is "to continue being immortal and to walk the earth".
God creates man and, because man did not understand sin, he makes man mortal and has a place called "hell".

Well that doesn't seem very fair does it? There's one rule for angels and another for mankind.

Lukvance... you are aware that angels aren't real, aren't you? They are just fairytale beings like dragons, vampires and elves.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 22, 2014, 11:37:16 AM
Sin is the result of free will.
Things can sin without free will. They have to. The ecosystem is built around kill or be killed. It's a sin when a bunch of bees sting an animal to death. No idiot would say that insects have free will. It's a sin when a fig tree lands on another tree and suffocates it out of existence.
You have defined sin and free will to be what you want them to be.
Please show evidence at any point.

I disagree with you. Could you prove what I bold for emphasis in your comment?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 22, 2014, 11:39:21 AM
Cool sin existed before creation of the universe. did sin exist before creation of the angels?

I don't know. But I don't think it's correct to say something like "before" creation of the angels since I believe they were created out of time.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 22, 2014, 11:45:28 AM
The concept of hell constitutes an attempt to coerce your actions with the threat of punishment. Fire and brimstone can be a motivator.
I disagree. Punishment means there is a "punisher". If you put your hand in the fire and get burn. Will you blame the fire to have burn you?

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Your use of the word "consequence" would mean that getting shot would merely be "a consequence" of not doing what the guy holding you at gunpoint wants you to do. If that's not a violation of free will, then what is?
Free will of who? The shooter? You seem to forget that there are 2 people involved in a shooting. Being shot is not the consequence of not doing what the guy holding you at gunpoint wants you to do, it's the consequence of the choice the shooter make.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: epidemic on May 22, 2014, 11:55:13 AM
I disagree. Punishment means there is a "punisher". If you put your hand in the fire and get burn. Will you blame the fire to have burn you?


if you do something wrong and fire that was formerly obscurred from you suddenly leaps on your hand. I would not blame the fire but rather the guy who causes the fire to be hidden form me and reveals after hundreds of mistakes, at random, sets my hand on fire forever.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 22, 2014, 12:02:12 PM
And god doesn't alleviate this terminal cancer that the 6-year old has because...?
I will have to look into the case more closely to give you all the reason why he does not cure the boy. Most of the time it is because the boy is a victim of our sin.
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Why did you capitalize the word 'more' above?

Sorry , I started the phrase with "more" then added "even" and did not make the change after.
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Regardless, I'm not exactly sure what your point is with the above.  And I'm really not sure that we're using the word 'care' in the same way.  Because if person A would stop a rape in progress and person B would not stop a rape in progress, then I would say that person A was a more caring person than person B.  I'd feel even worse about person B if he told me he wouldn't stop the rape in progress because he wouldn't want to impede on the rapist's free will.
I totally agree with you. We can impose our will unto others. Would it be to attack them (as the rapist did) or to rescue them (against the rapist).
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Which choice?  In my example, god is totally letting the rapist decide to 'rape' or 'not rape'.  That choice isn't being taken away from the rapist.

Well, if the rapist is spoofed away he would not be able to do what he wants to do.
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I'm rather sure that being raped was against the woman's choice, in the same way that I'm rather sure that getting terminal cancer was against the 6-year old's choice.

Me too. They are both victims of someone else sin.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Jesuis on May 22, 2014, 12:40:23 PM
Sin is any thought word or deed that takes us away from God. So long as we are unaware of God we are living in sin.

Free will is given to the mind (ego) that is talking us away from the state of Love into selfishness, indulgences, ego and duality.

When we follow our individuals mind and its base desires we reap the eternal cycle of those events.

We do this freely we have bad guidance from corrupted parents teachers politicians etc and we suffer that abuse in thought word or deed.
Since we are unaware of the law of cause and effect or are told by atheists that their is no such law we enter into indulgences of the mind willy nilly. We should have no doubt that this law exists and be aware of our thoughts words and deeds that take control over us and observe its negative intent.

When we are loving as taught by the Theists we will reap the love we have sown through our interaction. This is the only way to better our lives now and in the future. Life is eternal, never ending. It is our love for God that takes us back to God. If you love me FOLLOW my commandments. There is no other way to reduce suffering for yourself for your family for your loved ones.
 
The theists of past, present and future continue to bring love, to teach love, and live a life of love so that by example we can copy what they have done and improve our circumstances by being more and more aware.

Sin is what we do that takes us away from God. Free will is about the mind being the controller in the body and not the consciousness or the soul. We need to empower the consciousness to do what it does naturally. Which is Love All.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 22, 2014, 01:13:10 PM
Now what? Do we need to schedule a time so that I'm paying attention at the right moment, to see if for just a few seconds I believe in your god when you pray for me do so? Should I think really hard about believing in your god at the same time? Experiments are good, let's try a few.
I can pray for you to believe in God. If God was interfering without your consent you would be a believer now. That is proof that he does not intervene without your consent.
The experiment I did was the following. For one week I was "open to discussion" with God. Praying and listening to his words. (I couldn't hear anything) During that week if anyone asked me, I was a believer. I started the week with going to the church and finished it after church the next Sunday. Of course being a believer came with things I was not used to like prayer, but it was good stuff anyway nothing that bother other people.
After that week I didn't see or hear God. I didn't feel any different so I gave it another try (one more week), this time, because I heard the Sunday about how if you ask God something he will give it to you, I tested it. Of course I didn't want to ask God for big stuff like the loto or something like that so I ask for small stuff, always involving me but not the others. (I couldn't ask for Emy to be on time for example but I could ask for me to arrive at the same time that she did) I remember asking God to prevent me to hit myself on the corner. (I often did that back then, would it be my foot or my elbow or some part of my body, I was cutting corners too short) I asked for one day and 24h I hit myself, so I asked for the week. And it worked.
I did test god for a couple of month and one day I had enough proof to believe that he was the correct one.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 22, 2014, 01:24:52 PM
I remember asking God to prevent me to hit myself on the corner. (I often did that back then, would it be my foot or my elbow or some part of my body, I was cutting corners too short) I asked for one day and 24h I hit myself, so I asked for the week. And it worked.
I did test god for a couple of month and one day I had enough proof to believe that he was the correct one.

Did it ever occur to you that an alternative explanation was that you were simply being more cognizant of and cautious not to hit the corner?

If I am learning to ride a bicycle for the first time and find myself crashing on every attempt, and I pray to a god to keep me from crashing, when I eventually learn to ride the bike without crashing is it more likely due to my prayer being answered or simply because with continued practice I got better at it?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Boots on May 22, 2014, 01:28:40 PM
I find this world view...

I will have to look into the case more closely to give you all the reason why he does not cure the boy. Most of the time it is because the boy is a victim of our sin.

...

Me too. They are both victims of someone else sin.

to be absolutley deplorable.  The fact that anyone would punish an innocent for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 22, 2014, 01:33:13 PM
Is it really exercising free will if God designed you knowing full well that you would say no to this question at 9:44 Eastern standard time 5/22/2014?  It may appear like free will to you but if it is a forgone conclusion by design then I see no free will exercised.  I only see inescapable destiny.
I would agree with you if there wasn't an infinite parallel universe.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 22, 2014, 01:36:11 PM
to be absolutley deplorable.  The fact that anyone would punish an innocent for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.

Agreed.

Your Christian God is the Kim Jong Il/Un of man-made deities.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 22, 2014, 01:45:30 PM
So, let's get this right:

God makes angels and they rebel. Their sentence is "to continue being immortal and to walk the earth".
God creates man and, because man did not understand sin, he makes man mortal and has a place called "hell".

Well that doesn't seem very fair does it? There's one rule for angels and another for mankind.

Lukvance... you are aware that angels aren't real, aren't you? They are just fairytale beings like dragons, vampires and elves.
The same rule apply for Human and Angels when it comes to sin.
Satan and his angels are not in the state called heaven. They are in hell.
You and me will join the angels in heaven or hell depending on our choice when we die.
Angels are more real than dragons and elves.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 22, 2014, 01:48:59 PM
Did it ever occur to you that an alternative explanation was that you were simply being more cognizant of and cautious not to hit the corner?
If I am learning to ride a bicycle for the first time and find myself crashing on every attempt, and I pray to a god to keep me from crashing, when I eventually learn to ride the bike without crashing is it more likely due to my prayer being answered or simply because with continued practice I got better at it?
Of course I thought about that. But then I tried one day. I told to God in prayer "ok today I don't need you, I am able to not cut corners, anyway by now I have the habits" And I let you guess what happen. My little toe still remembers it. Plus this was only one of the many things I asked God to do "for me".
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 22, 2014, 01:51:22 PM
The fact that anyone would punish an innocent for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
I totally agree with you. But no one is punishing anyone here. If you put your hand into the fire and it burns. Is it because the fire is punishing you?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 22, 2014, 02:01:29 PM
Of course I thought about that. But then I tried one day. I told to God in prayer "ok today I don't need you, I am able to not cut corners, anyway by now I have the habits" And I let you guess what happen.

So, am I to take away from this parable of yours that you cannot safely round a corner without invoking your God's good graces first?

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Plus this was only one of the many things I asked God to do "for me".

I think you need to go with a different example, because quite frankly, your first one is not convincing anyone.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: epidemic on May 22, 2014, 02:11:58 PM
Now what? Do we need to schedule a time so that I'm paying attention at the right moment, to see if for just a few seconds I believe in your god when you pray for me do so? Should I think really hard about believing in your god at the same time? Experiments are good, let's try a few.
I can pray for you to believe in God. If God was interfering without your consent you would be a believer now. That is proof that he does not intervene without your consent.
The experiment I did was the following. For one week I was "open to discussion" with God. Praying and listening to his words. (I couldn't hear anything) During that week if anyone asked me, I was a believer. I started the week with going to the church and finished it after church the next Sunday. Of course being a believer came with things I was not used to like prayer, but it was good stuff anyway nothing that bother other people.
After that week I didn't see or hear God. I didn't feel any different so I gave it another try (one more week), this time, because I heard the Sunday about how if you ask God something he will give it to you, I tested it. Of course I didn't want to ask God for big stuff like the loto or something like that so I ask for small stuff, always involving me but not the others. (I couldn't ask for Emy to be on time for example but I could ask for me to arrive at the same time that she did) I remember asking God to prevent me to hit myself on the corner. (I often did that back then, would it be my foot or my elbow or some part of my body, I was cutting corners too short) I asked for one day and 24h I hit myself, so I asked for the week. And it worked.
I did test god for a couple of month and one day I had enough proof to believe that he was the correct one.


there were times in my life that I was open to discussion with god.  he never spoke to me in a manner I would have attributed to god.  I laid in bed sick with strep/asthma/bronchitis for days alone with my thoughts between when cartoons stopped and afternoon programming began.  Silently in my room asking for guidence and I heard nothing. 

In hindsight this is probably a good thing considering that I am not having a schizophrenic break from reality.  Again the guy is able to create a universe, murder untold millions of species and people with a thought.  I think he could have spoken in a way that a sickly teen seeking advice could have heard him in a silent room.


I do have to say my prayers were not quites as mundane as yours.  maybe god could have helped me walk around corners or jump rope.  But my prayers were for my sick grandma and grandpa and for me to get well.  Eventually after 2 weeks I usually got better so I guess you could call that a prayer's answer.  But being that it was right in keeping with expected outcome of my sickness I kinda went with typical immune response.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 22, 2014, 02:22:56 PM
The fact that anyone would punish an innocent for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
I totally agree with you. But no one is punishing anyone here. If you put your hand into the fire and it burns. Is it because the fire is punishing you?

Well let's take the punishment factor out of the equation and respin what Boots is saying (Boots, if you do not agree with the following please call me out on it):

The fact that anyone would allow an innocent person to suffer for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
or
The fact that anyone would not stop an innocent person from suffering for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.

If you are about to put your hand into the fire, and the person next to you knows that the fire will burn, and has the ability to not only stop you from putting your hand into the fire but also has the ability to explain why you shouldn't, would you say the person next to you acted in your best interest if they did NOTHING to stop you from putting your hand into the fire?  If that person next to you knows that you do not wish to feel pain at that moment, and you don't know that putting your hand in fire causes pain, are they respecting your choice to not feel pain?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 22, 2014, 02:31:34 PM
And god doesn't alleviate this terminal cancer that the 6-year old has because...?
I will have to look into the case more closely to give you all the reason why he does not cure the boy. Most of the time it is because the boy is a victim of our sin.
And god doesn't alleviate this terminal cancer that the 6-year old has because...?  Even if it is due to our sin, it's not due to the 6-year old's sin.  THE 6-YEAR OLD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS/HER TERMINAL CANCER, and your suggestion that it should be the case is, frankly, disturbing.

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Regardless, I'm not exactly sure what your point is with the above.  And I'm really not sure that we're using the word 'care' in the same way.  Because if person A would stop a rape in progress and person B would not stop a rape in progress, then I would say that person A was a more caring person than person B.  I'd feel even worse about person B if he told me he wouldn't stop the rape in progress because he wouldn't want to impede on the rapist's free will.
I totally agree with you. We can impose our will unto others. Would it be to attack them (as the rapist did) or to rescue them (against the rapist).
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Which choice?  In my example, god is totally letting the rapist decide to 'rape' or 'not rape'.  That choice isn't being taken away from the rapist.

Well, if the rapist is spoofed away he would not be able to do what he wants to do.
The *poofing* away wouldn't happen until the point in time where the rapist has made the choice to rape.

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I'm rather sure that being raped was against the woman's choice, in the same way that I'm rather sure that getting terminal cancer was against the 6-year old's choice.

Me too. They are both victims of someone else sin.
And the loving god who's watching these people suffer not of their own accord - not of their own choice - doesn't do anything.  Because freedom.  Even though healing these people or stopping their suffering would not remove any of their freedoms.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: epidemic on May 22, 2014, 03:05:37 PM
And god doesn't alleviate this terminal cancer that the 6-year old has because...?
I will have to look into the case more closely to give you all the reason why he does not cure the boy. Most of the time it is because the boy is a victim of our sin.
And god doesn't alleviate this terminal cancer that the 6-year old has because...?  Even if it is due to our sin, it's not due to the 6-year old's sin.  THE 6-YEAR OLD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS/HER TERMINAL CANCER, and your suggestion that it should be the case is, frankly, disturbing.

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Regardless, I'm not exactly sure what your point is with the above.  And I'm really not sure that we're using the word 'care' in the same way.  Because if person A would stop a rape in progress and person B would not stop a rape in progress, then I would say that person A was a more caring person than person B.  I'd feel even worse about person B if he told me he wouldn't stop the rape in progress because he wouldn't want to impede on the rapist's free will.
I totally agree with you. We can impose our will unto others. Would it be to attack them (as the rapist did) or to rescue them (against the rapist).
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Which choice?  In my example, god is totally letting the rapist decide to 'rape' or 'not rape'.  That choice isn't being taken away from the rapist.

Well, if the rapist is spoofed away he would not be able to do what he wants to do.
The *poofing* away wouldn't happen until the point in time where the rapist has made the choice to rape.

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I'm rather sure that being raped was against the woman's choice, in the same way that I'm rather sure that getting terminal cancer was against the 6-year old's choice.

Me too. They are both victims of someone else sin.
And the loving god who's watching these people suffer not of their own accord - not of their own choice - doesn't do anything.  Because freedom.  Even though healing these people or stopping their suffering would not remove any of their freedoms.

luk

allowing the rapist to have free will strips the  womans right to free will from her.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: eh! on May 22, 2014, 03:12:37 PM
Did god exist prior to angels luk.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: junebug72 on May 22, 2014, 03:57:56 PM
The subject come often during the many replies I post. Since the answer is the same, I thought I would create a Thread that I could link to.
My statement is the following.
God is omnipotent indeed. He chose to not interfere directly without our consent in our lives because he created us free. He decided that being free is more important than all the sin in the world. It might not be the case one day, and that day might be the end of the world.

We did not have the freedom to chose to be created!!!
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: JoeNobody on May 22, 2014, 04:12:28 PM
Does having a gun put to one's head interfere with one's free will?
If yes, how is the threat of hell any different?
Yes. There is no threat of hell. Hell is a consequence of the choices you make. Like pulling the trigger has for consequence you going to jail. Saying no to God has for consequence you going to hell.
Should we allow killers to kill without putting them to jail?

The bolded is a false analogy.  A more apt analogy would be;

Glorious Leader is running for re-election. You have the choice to vote for him or not, but if you vote against him he will imprison and torture you.

Imprisonment and torture is simply the consequence for voting against Glorious Leader. Should he not imprison and torture people who vote against him?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: JoeNobody on May 22, 2014, 04:18:07 PM
And god doesn't alleviate this terminal cancer that the 6-year old has because...?
I will have to look into the case more closely to give you all the reason why he does not cure the boy. Most of the time it is because the boy is a victim of our sin.
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Why did you capitalize the word 'more' above?

Sorry , I started the phrase with "more" then added "even" and did not make the change after.
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Regardless, I'm not exactly sure what your point is with the above.  And I'm really not sure that we're using the word 'care' in the same way.  Because if person A would stop a rape in progress and person B would not stop a rape in progress, then I would say that person A was a more caring person than person B.  I'd feel even worse about person B if he told me he wouldn't stop the rape in progress because he wouldn't want to impede on the rapist's free will.
I totally agree with you. We can impose our will unto others. Would it be to attack them (as the rapist did) or to rescue them (against the rapist).
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Which choice?  In my example, god is totally letting the rapist decide to 'rape' or 'not rape'.  That choice isn't being taken away from the rapist.

Well, if the rapist is spoofed away he would not be able to do what he wants to do.
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I'm rather sure that being raped was against the woman's choice, in the same way that I'm rather sure that getting terminal cancer was against the 6-year old's choice.

Me too. They are both victims of someone else sin.


Okay, if some guy walked in on a rapist about to commit rape, and stood by and did nothing to intervene, he would not be considered good or moral. Even to protect the rapists "free will".  Valuable as it may be, "free will" is trumped by the victim's well being.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Graybeard on May 22, 2014, 04:19:36 PM
I can pray for you to believe in God. If God was interfering without your consent you would be a believer now. That is proof that he does not intervene without your consent.
So basically, you are saying "If you believe in God, you will believe in God." Well that's not very clever, is it?
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The experiment I did was the following. For one week I was "open to discussion" with God. ... I ask for small stuff, always involving me but not the others. ...  I remember asking God to prevent me to hit myself on the corner...  I asked for one day and 24h I hit myself, so I asked for the week. And it worked.
I did test god for a couple of month and one day I had enough proof to believe that he was the correct one.
That is not an experiment. You had no control example. You were conduction the experiment and you were the subject of the experiment... do you see a conflict?

I would agree with you if there wasn't an infinite parallel universe.
Well, you have no idea how happy I am to hear this. I have been searching for proof of an infinite parallel universe for 40 years. Please post your proof immediately!
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 22, 2014, 04:52:00 PM
So, am I to take away from this parable of yours that you cannot safely round a corner without invoking your God's good graces first?
I cannot live/breathe without God. Safely cutting corners without invoking God I can do...for a limited time.
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I think you need to go with a different example, because quite frankly, your first one is not convincing anyone.
It wasn't there to convince you. I used it as an example of "little" things I asked God when I put him to the test.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 22, 2014, 05:05:27 PM
If you are about to put your hand into the fire, and the person next to you knows that the fire will burn, and has the ability to not only stop you from putting your hand into the fire but also has the ability to explain why you shouldn't, would you say the person next to you acted in your best interest if they did NOTHING to stop you from putting your hand into the fire?

No. That is why God send people on hearth to warn you about the danger of the "fire" (like your parents for instance).
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If that person next to you knows that you do not wish to feel pain at that moment, and you don't know that putting your hand in fire causes pain, are they respecting your choice to not feel pain?
I don't understand the question. In the analogy the person knows that putting his hand into the fire burns. Respecting their choice would be to let them burn themselves. (or tattoo themselves)
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 22, 2014, 05:17:45 PM
I will have to look into the case more closely to give you all the reason why he does not cure the boy. Most of the time it is because the boy is a victim of our sin.
And god doesn't alleviate this terminal cancer that the 6-year old has because...?  Even if it is due to our sin, it's not due to the 6-year old's sin.  THE 6-YEAR OLD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS/HER TERMINAL CANCER, and your suggestion that it should be the case is, frankly, disturbing.
Bold for emphasis. How do you jump to such a conclusion from what I wrote!?!?!?!? You are the one suggesting such an horror.
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The *poofing* away wouldn't happen until the point in time where the rapist has made the choice to rape.
Even if the initial choice is made, a lot more will come later, every second the guy is making choices.
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And the loving god who's watching these people suffer not of their own accord - not of their own choice - doesn't do anything.  Because freedom.  Even though healing these people or stopping their suffering would not remove any of their freedoms.
Maybe not their freedom but someone else freedom surely.
What do you see in the big picture?
Do you want to bring up one of your experiences like epidemics? Maybe it will be better than invented situations.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 22, 2014, 05:19:54 PM
allowing the rapist to have free will strips the womans right to free will from her.
Not exactly. But true in that particular point in her life. Someone else free will overthrown her own. By force. And that is partly why this is so wrong.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 22, 2014, 05:29:18 PM
Did god exist prior to angels luk.
Yes
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 22, 2014, 05:31:33 PM
Okay, if some guy walked in on a rapist about to commit rape, and stood by and did nothing to intervene, he would not be considered good or moral. Even to protect the rapists "free will".  Valuable as it may be, "free will" is trumped by the victim's well being.
I'm not sure I understand you. But the guy should intervene and use his "free will" to force the rapist to stop.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 22, 2014, 05:49:25 PM
I can pray for you to believe in God. If God was interfering without your consent you would be a believer now. That is proof that he does not intervene without your consent.
So basically, you are saying "If you believe in God, you will believe in God." Well that's not very clever, is it?

Bold for emphasis. That was the reason why I was answering to someone else than you. He asked me for an example to support the fact that God doesn't intervene without consent (God does not force his will unto people) please, follow the discussion.

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That is not an experiment. You had no control example. You were conduction the experiment and you were the subject of the experiment... do you see a conflict?
It is not an experiment to your liking I concur. It is an experiment nonetheless. Maybe experiment is not the right word for it. I tried something. Is that better?

Well, you have no idea how happy I am to hear this. I have been searching for proof of an infinite parallel universe for 40 years. Please post your proof immediately!
[wiki]String theory[/wiki] make it plausilbe. Also [wiki]Schrödinger equation[/wiki] leave some room for alternate universe.
You can watch the following video for more information : http://youtu.be/oXLZRoBnEHY
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 22, 2014, 08:39:36 PM
How do you jump to such a conclusion from what I wrote!?!?!?!? You are the one suggesting such an horror.

jdawg was not the only one to reach that conclusion, Luk. Both Boots and myself agree with him. You are the one suggesting that there is a link between a 6 year old's cancer and "our sins" (your exact words) and not "his sins" (which is equally an outrageous explanation), which most definitely suggests that his suffering was the direct result of something not of his own doing.

Edited to remove double word


Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 22, 2014, 08:46:47 PM
I cannot live/breathe without God.

I am assuming that you are talking figuratively here. Are you?

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Safely cutting corners without invoking God I can do...for a limited time.

So, what? Every now and then you have to offer up a "refresher" prayer to keep from being a klutz?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 22, 2014, 10:47:07 PM
jdawg was not the only one to reach that conclusion, Luk. Both Boots and myself agree with him. You are the one suggesting that there is a link between a 6 year old's cancer and "our sins" (your exact words) and not "his sins" (which is equally an outrageous explanation), which most definitely suggests that his suffering was the direct result of something not of his own doing.
Did you read his conclusion?  " THE 6-YEAR OLD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS/HER TERMINAL CANCER, and your suggestion that it should be the case" Means that he thinks that according to me the kid is responsible for his cancer. THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM SAYING.
Of course his suffering is the result of something that he did not do purposely. (like live in a house full of carcinogenic mold)
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I am assuming that you are talking figuratively here. Are you?
No. You too can't do it without him.
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Every now and then you have to offer up a "refresher" prayer to keep from being a klutz?
No. I asked him to protect me until the day I die. But it's funny, when I hit a corner these days (which is very rare) it reminds me that Ì have a sin I didn't ask for forgiveness yet. It's my "sin reminder" if you want haha.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 22, 2014, 11:54:28 PM
Did you read his conclusion?  " THE 6-YEAR OLD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS/HER TERMINAL CANCER, and your suggestion that it should be the case" Means that he thinks that according to me the kid is responsible for his cancer. THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM SAYING.
Of course his suffering is the result of something that he did not do purposely. (like live in a house full of carcinogenic mold)

You had chosen your words poorly, then. Did you really expect those who had read your initial response,  and I quote,  "the boy is a victim of our sin" to be able to translate that in to "the boy is a victim of a naturally occurring cause of cancer"? Can you at least tell me you can now see how your initial comment would create a misunderstanding?

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No. You too can't do it without him.

Oh, yes I most certainly can. By this point in my life, I must be so chock-full of unforgiven sin that I should have stopped breathing years ago. Not only that, I can somehow manage to get through life day-in and day-out without stubbing my toe on a corner. haha.


Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Astreja on May 23, 2014, 12:06:44 AM
Catholicism is sounding more and more like an institution deliberately designed to cultivate obsessive-compulsive disorder in its adherents.  Pray for forgiveness so that one doesn't stub one's toe?  :o

I think that a decent mindfulness practice would achieve the same goal more efficiently, with the added benefits of making the world seem more alive and immediate, and cultivate more coherent thinking as well.

Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 23, 2014, 02:48:09 AM
Catholicism is sounding more and more like an institution deliberately designed to cultivate obsessive-compulsive disorder in its adherents.  Pray for forgiveness so that one doesn't stub one's toe?  :o

I think that a decent mindfulness practice would achieve the same goal more efficiently, with the added benefits of making the world seem more alive and immediate, and cultivate more coherent thinking as well.

I'm sorry you misunderstood me. I don't pray for forgiveness so that I don't hit myself, I realize that I am saying no to God's (that's all sin is about) protection when I hit myself. You remember when I said I asked for his protection until the day I die? So God won't protect me when I don't want him in my life. I hope you understand me better now.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 23, 2014, 02:51:58 AM
You had chosen your words poorly, then. Did you really expect those who had read your initial response,  and I quote,  "the boy is a victim of our sin" to be able to translate that in to "the boy is a victim of a naturally occurring cause of cancer"? Can you at least tell me you can now see how your initial comment would create a misunderstanding?
No. Sorry I seem to lack English comprehension on that particular case.

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Oh, yes I most certainly can. By this point in my life, I must be so chock-full of unforgiven sin that I should have stopped breathing years ago. Not only that, I can somehow manage to get through life day-in and day-out without stubbing my toe on a corner. haha.
God does not abandon you when you don't want him (when you sin). He stays close to you and wait for you to accept him into you life.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: epidemic on May 23, 2014, 07:09:38 AM
Wow I cant keep tracks of all the twists and turns this debate  takes.

Luk,

God has never spoken to me even when I wanted to believe.

I don't repeatedly make mistakes and stub my toe.  I make a conscious decision to adjust my direction of travel until it becomes muscle memory to avoid it and thankfully I have been successful.

I want you to try an experiment, I think it is valid.   Go 50 yards into the woods near your house with a skeptical non believer facilitator,  , close your eyes spin around 6 times, sit down meditate,  ask for forgiveness and guidance and run as fast as you can back to the clearing.  No peeking.  No matter how many times you try this experiment I believe the results will be the same.  Can you document your attempt with a video? 

for the purposes of this test make sure the woods has at least an average  tree density of 10 feet. 


if you want to modify it a little for safety, I think a Mall parkinglot with a non believing skeptical member of this site that lives local to you.  We can travel to a mall parkinglot and have you run 100 yards black hooded and disoriented at top speed.  3 sprints.  Again video evidence would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 23, 2014, 08:12:54 AM
Did you read his conclusion?  " THE 6-YEAR OLD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS/HER TERMINAL CANCER, and your suggestion that it should be the case" Means that he thinks that according to me the kid is responsible for his cancer. THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM SAYING.

Then kindly give a valid reason why god does not heal the 6-year old child.

Perhaps a response to this:
Quote
The fact that anyone would allow an innocent person to suffer for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
or
The fact that anyone would not stop an innocent person from suffering for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
Would help clear the air.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: epidemic on May 23, 2014, 08:25:12 AM
Did you read his conclusion?  " THE 6-YEAR OLD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS/HER TERMINAL CANCER, and your suggestion that it should be the case" Means that he thinks that according to me the kid is responsible for his cancer. THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM SAYING.

Then kindly give a valid reason why god does not heal the 6-year old child.

Perhaps a response to this:
Quote
The fact that anyone would allow an innocent person to suffer for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
or
The fact that anyone would not stop an innocent person from suffering for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
Would help clear the air.

Duh!!!  GWIMW, Game set and match:)
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 23, 2014, 09:50:25 AM
No. Sorry I seem to lack English comprehension on that particular case.

Then don't expect to be able to clearly and concisely communicate your messages without repeatedly being asked for clarification. The fault was yours, not ours in this particular case.

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God does not abandon you when you don't want him (when you sin). He stays close to you and wait for you to accept him into you life.

Have you forgotten your point I was addressing? No (G)od is needed for me to be able to breathe. I will now request that you provide evidence that the human body is incapable of functioning without the direct aid and or consent of your deity.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Astreja on May 23, 2014, 10:13:38 AM
I'm sorry you misunderstood me. I don't pray for forgiveness so that I don't hit myself, I realize that I am saying no to God's (that's all sin is about) protection when I hit myself. You remember when I said I asked for his protection until the day I die? So God won't protect me when I don't want him in my life. I hope you understand me better now.

In practical terms, Luk, I really don't see much of a difference.  Is your god really protecting you when you pray, or are you protecting yourself via placebo effect with the prayers putting you in a more positive and self-protective state of mind?

This is a really good example of where the scientific method could explain more convincingly -- But only if we had proper experimental controls and a larger sample.  At this point, all we know is that "something happened."  We don't have supplemental information to tell us how often it normally happens to the average person, or what factors combine to evoke a protective effect.

This is also a good example of the problems inherent in personal testimony.  Again, "something happened" but we may never know what, or why.  All we have to go on is what you tell us, and even you may not know or remember all the contributing factors.  For instance, it's My understanding that in Catholicism one may not take the Eucharist without confession, so trying to go it alone has the potential of making someone an outlier in their religious community.  I don't know to what extent you participate in formal religion, but deeply ingrained practices are something that we tend to expect as part of our day-to-day routine, and any disruption of the usual can be quite jarring at a psychological level even if the change itself is for the better.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 23, 2014, 10:27:10 AM
 
So God won't protect me when I don't want him in my life.


God does not abandon you when you don't want him (when you sin).

Do you see the contradiction here?

Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 23, 2014, 12:24:14 PM
Then kindly give a valid reason why god does not heal the 6-year old child.
The answer is the same. Free will. But we are missing important details about the story of this child. My friend, who was miraculously cured of cancer, was cured after she did something that translate in English as "undertaking of forgiveness"

Quote
Perhaps a response to this:
The fact that anyone would allow an innocent person to suffer for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
or
The fact that anyone would not stop an innocent person from suffering for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
Would help clear the air.
Both are true if we talk about human beings, humans who can impose their will unto others. In God's case he allows the someone to do the transgression.
God could have stopped Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit but he chose not to because doing so would be going against their will.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 23, 2014, 12:30:55 PM
No. Sorry I seem to lack English comprehension on that particular case.

Then don't expect to be able to clearly and concisely communicate your messages without repeatedly being asked for clarification. The fault was yours, not ours in this particular case.
No no no. In this particular case no clarification was asked before assuming the worst about me. :(

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Have you forgotten your point I was addressing? No (G)od is needed for me to be able to breathe. I will now request that you provide evidence that the human body is incapable of functioning without the direct aid and or consent of your deity.
Direct aid, no I agree with you. Direct consent, I disagree. God must give you his consent for you to live. He's the one who created your soul, without it you wouldn't be able to function. You wouldn't be there. That's what I meant when I said I couldn't live/breathe without him. It meant that without him I wouldn't even exist! I have made a difference between without God and without God's help. Do you see it now?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Jesuis on May 23, 2014, 12:32:30 PM
<snip> THE 6-YEAR OLD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS/HER TERMINAL CANCER.<snip>
How do you know that?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 23, 2014, 12:33:35 PM
In practical terms, Luk, I really don't see much of a difference.  Is your god really protecting you when you pray, or are you protecting yourself via placebo effect with the prayers putting you in a more positive and self-protective state of mind?
Tried the placebo, didn't work.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 23, 2014, 12:45:32 PM
 
So God won't protect me when I don't want him in my life.
God does not abandon you when you don't want him (when you sin).
Do you see the contradiction here?
No in both case God is there next to me...waiting.
It's like if you sprained your heel and I was walking next to you.
Case 1 : "God won't protect me when I don't want him in my life" I won't help you if you don't want any help.
Case 2 : "God does not abandon you when you don't want him" I will still be there next to you even if you don't want any help.
You understand now?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Jesuis on May 23, 2014, 12:57:53 PM
We did not have the freedom to chose to be created!!!
That is true, but we were created in the image and likeness of God. Fully conscious, absolutely pure, devoid of ego, forever truthful, and always in the light of God.
However all of that was before mind and time was created.
 
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: epidemic on May 23, 2014, 12:57:55 PM
Luk,

Are you going to take me up on my challenge (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26858.msg616988.html#msg616988)?  It would go a long way toward convincing me that you are receiving supernatural help.  If you god can help you avoid corners I think he could easily help you complete the challenge
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 23, 2014, 01:06:19 PM
Luk,
Are you going to take me up on my challenge (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26858.msg616988.html#msg616988)?  It would go a long way toward convincing me that you are receiving supernatural help.  If you god can help you avoid corners I think he could easily help you complete the challenge
You want me to create a miracle purposely? That's impossible by definition.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: epidemic on May 23, 2014, 01:09:45 PM
Luk,
Are you going to take me up on my challenge (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26858.msg616988.html#msg616988)?  It would go a long way toward convincing me that you are receiving supernatural help.  If you god can help you avoid corners I think he could easily help you complete the challenge
You want me to create a miracle purposely? That's impossible by definition.

so your little miracle of avoiding corners was not, a miracle you requested and cited as proof?  So even if you ask for gods guidance you will probably run into trees at full speed?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Jesuis on May 23, 2014, 01:13:49 PM
Did you read his conclusion?  " THE 6-YEAR OLD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS/HER TERMINAL CANCER, and your suggestion that it should be the case" Means that he thinks that according to me the kid is responsible for his cancer. THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM SAYING.

Then kindly give a valid reason why god does not heal the 6-year old child.

Perhaps a response to this:
Quote
The fact that anyone would allow an innocent person to suffer for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
or
The fact that anyone would not stop an innocent person from suffering for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
Would help clear the air.
You reap what you sow.
So long as we do not KNOW what life is we are dabbling in wishful thinking.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 23, 2014, 01:14:39 PM
Then kindly give a valid reason why god does not heal the 6-year old child.
The answer is the same. Free will. But we are missing important details about the story of this child. My friend, who was miraculously cured of cancer, was cured after she did something that translate in English as "undertaking of forgiveness"
I think you're going to have to try explaining 'undertaking of forgiveness' more.

Quote
Quote
Perhaps a response to this:
The fact that anyone would allow an innocent person to suffer for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
or
The fact that anyone would not stop an innocent person from suffering for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
Would help clear the air.
Both are true if we talk about human beings, humans who can impose their will unto others. In God's case he allows the someone to do the transgression.
God could have stopped Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit but he chose not to because doing so would be going against their will.
Are you saying that god could stop the 6-year old from having cancer, but chooses not to because doing so would be going against his/her will?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Jesuis on May 23, 2014, 01:19:18 PM
In practical terms, Luk, I really don't see much of a difference.  Is your god really protecting you when you pray, or are you protecting yourself via placebo effect with the prayers putting you in a more positive and self-protective state of mind?
Tried the placebo, didn't work.
Doctors use the word placebo to say they do not know how it works.
We might as well say its a miracle.
However the word miracle has God in it and placebo is denying there is a God in it.
However to the consciously aware - they know - it is a power within themselves. This inner power is always with the individual. The consciously aware higher self.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 23, 2014, 01:24:43 PM
I think you're going to have to try explaining 'undertaking of forgiveness' more.
She had this person that she never pardon. She made the trip to that persons house and ask for forgiveness. She did that with everyone she could think of.

Quote
Are you saying that god could stop the 6-year old from having cancer, but chooses not to because doing so would be going against his/her will?
No. The cancer is a consequence of something bad. Someone made a bad choice at one point and this kid is paying for it.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: One Above All on May 23, 2014, 01:26:33 PM
No. The cancer is a consequence of something bad. Someone made a bad choice at one point and this kid is paying for it.

Isn't that sweet? Punish an innocent child for what someone, somewhere, who might not even be related to her, did, instead of punishing the evildoer. Your god sounds like a real peach. ;)[1]
 1. Just so we're clear, this is sarcasm. Your god (and, by extension, you) is a psychopathic retard.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 23, 2014, 01:34:49 PM
Isn't that sweet? Punish an innocent child for what someone, somewhere, who might not even be related to her, did, instead of punishing the evildoer. Your god sounds like a real peach. ;)[1]
 1. Just so we're clear, this is sarcasm. Your god (and, by extension, you) is a psychopathic retard.
"Punish an innocent child"? Why do you think that it was God's fault?
If you get burned by the fire after putting you hand into it, is it the fire's fault?
If you let your kid outside your home and he got into an accident, is that your fault?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Boots on May 23, 2014, 01:49:54 PM
Quote
Perhaps a response to this:
The fact that anyone would allow an innocent person to suffer for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
or
The fact that anyone would not stop an innocent person from suffering for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
Would help clear the air.
Both are true if we talk about human beings, humans who can impose their will unto others. In God's case he allows the someone to do the transgression.
God could have stopped Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit but he chose not to because doing so would be going against their will.

emphasis added.

Luk, it seems clear that, since you cited Genesis as an example, you take the Old Testament literally.  Perhaps you could explain, then, how it is that Yahweh "hardened the heart of Pharoh" -- multiple times -- so that he could flex his divine muscles agianst Egypt, and how that was not a violation of the free will of Pharoh and the Egyptians he killed through the Ten Plagues.

Edit: in fact, Pharoh let The Chosen Ones go after the 10th plague of murdering all first born (free will?!?!), then Yahweh hardened Pharoh's heart AGAIN so he'd chase after them and Yahweh could then drown the entire army...
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 23, 2014, 02:00:52 PM
Are you saying that god could stop the 6-year old from having cancer, but chooses not to because doing so would be going against his/her will?
No. The cancer is a consequence of something bad. Someone made a bad choice at one point and this kid is paying for it.
Sorry, but you really seem hell bent on saying the words 'god respects your free will' whilst simultaneously showcasing the myriad of ways that god does not give a sh*t about free will.  It's pretty clear here that god plain does not give a sh*t about this 6-year old's free will.

Person A, B, and C do...something...that causes this 6-year old to get terminal cancer (I dunno...chain smoke around him or some other ill-advised behavior).  God, presumably to respect A, B, and C's choice to do ill-advised things, does not stop them from chain smoking or whatever.  Fine.

Now the 6-year old has this terminal cancer.  Can you please explain to me exactly who's free will is going to be violated if god cures the 6-year old of this terminal cancer?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: One Above All on May 23, 2014, 02:08:50 PM
"Punish an innocent child"? Why do you think that it was God's fault?
If you get burned by the fire after putting you hand into it, is it the fire's fault?
If you let your kid outside your home and he got into an accident, is that your fault?

False analogies. In both cases, the person in question did something that put them at risk. In the 6-year-old example, and according to your logic, it was someone else who did something that caused her to get cancer. Another reason why they're false analogies is that fire and humans are not omnipotent or omniscient. In fact, fire isn't even alive.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Astreja on May 23, 2014, 02:27:04 PM
In practical terms, Luk, I really don't see much of a difference.  Is your god really protecting you when you pray, or are you protecting yourself via placebo effect with the prayers putting you in a more positive and self-protective state of mind?

Tried the placebo, didn't work.

I don't know how we can test this statement, particularly after the various discussions in which you brought up love and mathematics as analogous to the existence of your god.  If your god is purely a mental construct with no independent existence outside the minds of believers, it itself *is* a placebo (an entity with no "active ingredient" other than our faith in its efficacy).

That doesn't mean that any old placebo will do, however.  For instance, I've had strong positive reactions to Norse, Greek and Hindu deities but barely any at all to Roman, Celtic or Chinese deities -- And in a sense I'm actually allergic to the Abrahamic god, although not to its Mesopotamian predecessors.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 23, 2014, 02:30:07 PM
No no no. In this particular case no clarification was asked before assuming the worst about me. :(

<sigh> The fault was still initially yours, Luk. If you had originally stated, and I quote, "Of course his suffering is the result of something that he did not do purposely. (like live in a house full of carcinogenic mold)" instead of, and I quote, "the boy is a victim of our sin", there would have been no issue with you in the first place. "Carcinogenic mold" does not equate to "our sin", correct? If your answer is yes, and you can admit that you chose your words poorly in your original statement, then I will gladly retract my negative opinion of you based upon said statement.

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Direct aid, no I agree with you. Direct consent, I disagree. God must give you his consent for you to live. He's the one who created your soul, without it you wouldn't be able to function. You wouldn't be there. That's what I meant when I said I couldn't live/breathe without him. It meant that without him I wouldn't even exist! I have made a difference between without God and without God's help. Do you see it now?

Now that you have clarified your initial comment, I accept your distinction as it applies to yourself. The rest of your explanation, however, has no basis in reality unless evidence is provided to the contrary. Sorry, I flat out reject your opinion, for that is exactly what you have offered.

No in both case God is there next to me...waiting.
It's like if you sprained your heel and I was walking next to you.
Case 1 : "God won't protect me when I don't want him in my life" I won't help you if you don't want any help.
Case 2 : "God does not abandon you when you don't want him" I will still be there next to you even if you don't want any help.
You understand now?

Ok. I see what you meant. I stand corrected that there was no contradiction in your two comments.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Jesuis on May 23, 2014, 03:19:32 PM
Isn't that sweet? Punish an innocent child for what someone, somewhere, who might not even be related to her, did, instead of punishing the evildoer. Your god sounds like a real peach. ;)[1]
 1. Just so we're clear, this is sarcasm. Your god (and, by extension, you) is a psychopathic retard.
Only the sower reaps what he has sown. The cycle of violence demands that for every action there is an equal and opposite one. Only true forgiveness is above that law and kills it dead in its tracks. Investigate your own mind to find its power to forgive continuously. The path of the Theists is to love all.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 23, 2014, 05:12:08 PM
Luk, it seems clear that, since you cited Genesis as an example, you take the Old Testament literally
Nope I don't. Sorry.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: eh! on May 23, 2014, 05:21:11 PM
The pope takes the ot seriously, luk knows something about Catholicism the pope doesn't?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 23, 2014, 05:22:40 PM
Person A, B, and C do...something...that causes this 6-year old to get terminal cancer (I dunno...chain smoke around him or some other ill-advised behavior).  God, presumably to respect A, B, and C's choice to do ill-advised things, does not stop them from chain smoking or whatever.  Fine.

Now the 6-year old has this terminal cancer.  Can you please explain to me exactly who's free will is going to be violated if god cures the 6-year old of this terminal cancer?
Person A B and C. Again, don't blame the fire to have burned you when you put your hand into it. The burn is a direct consequence of you putting your hand into the fire. The cancer is a direct consequence of the smoke the kid inhaled.
Could you imagine a world where there would be no consequences?
The guy who wanted to kill me didn't kill so did not go to jail. Heck jail wouldn't even exist.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 23, 2014, 05:23:27 PM
The pope takes the ot seriously, luk knows something about Catholicism the pope doesn't?
Oh I take it very seriously too, don't worry.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: eh! on May 23, 2014, 06:11:00 PM
Earthquake victims chose to die in an earthquake?,
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 23, 2014, 06:50:38 PM
Person A B and C.
Could you elaborate?  What freedoms are removed from person A, B, and C[//b] after the 6-year old is healed of terminal cancer?

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Again, don't blame the fire to have burned you when you put your hand into it.
So I...shouldn't blame persons A, B, and C for causing the 6-year old's cancer?  I'm not really sure what you're saying here.  I'm not blaming god for causing the kid's cancer.  I'm blaming god for not curing the kid's cancer.

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The burn is a direct consequence of you putting your hand into the fire.
You're...you're NOT F*CKING GETTING IT, and I'm really unsure why that is.  It's not that f*cking hard Lukvance.  THE KID IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS CANCER.  THE KID HAD NO.  F*CKING.  CHOICE.  IN.  GETTING.  THE.  F*CKING.  CANCER..  This hand and fire sh*t does not f*cking apply.  You break that analogy out again and I AM GOING TO F*CKING LOSE IT.

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The cancer is a direct consequence of the smoke the kid inhaled.
A consequence that THE 6-YEAR OLD IS SUFFERING DUE TO NO FAULT OF HIS/HER OWN.

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Could you imagine a world where there would be no consequences?
Can you imagine a world where no innocent people suffer?  Where the only ones to suffer as a result of consequence are the ones who are responsible for those consequences?  Is that not significantly more fair?  Is that not significantly more conducive to respecting free will?

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The guy who wanted to kill me didn't kill so did not go to jail. Heck jail wouldn't even exist.
And I gave you a damn out to that one, didn't I?  There is a point in time between the killer absolutely committing to killing you and harm actually coming to you.  God can *poof* the killer away right before harm comes to you.  Boom.  Jail.  Satisfies all of your requirements, except, perhaps, the part about innocent people actually suffering through no fault of their own.

My best guess?  You want to use the suffering of people to teach other people lessons.

That's what f*cking supervillains[//i] do.  That's definitely not what a kind person does, and I definitely wouldn't expect an entity that is 'all-loving' to do that.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 23, 2014, 08:47:54 PM

Only the sower reaps what he has sown.

And what did the 6 year old cancer victim "sow" do you think, hmm? Better yet, what does an infant who is the victim of SIDS "sow"? Go on, let's hear your answer, or are you going to pull a post and run like you'd did in the "Why can't/won't god heal amputees?" thread?

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The cycle of violence demands that for every action there is an equal and opposite one. Only true forgiveness is above that law and kills it dead in its tracks. Investigate your own mind to find its power to forgive continuously. The path of the Theists is to love all.

Psychobabble.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: eh! on May 23, 2014, 10:05:24 PM
Jdawg relax luk loves you man. do you agree that you are responsible for eves sin, as such the child is responsible for getting cancer.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Astreja on May 24, 2014, 12:02:06 AM
Doctors use the word placebo to say they do not know how it works...

Incorrect.  Placebos are regularly used as controls in medical trials so that the effectiveness of a treatment can be ascertained.  The placebo effect, when patients improve on the imitation medicine, clearly points to a neurological and/or psychological phenomenon caused by the patient's expectations.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 24, 2014, 01:11:52 AM
Earthquake victims chose to die in an earthquake?
No
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 24, 2014, 01:35:51 AM
Could you elaborate?  What freedoms are removed from person A, B, and C[//b] after the 6-year old is healed of terminal cancer?

The cancer is the consequence of A B and C behavior. Not having a cancer or removing the cancer is removing the consequence of the choice made by A B and C.
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Again, don't blame the fire to have burned you when you put your hand into it.
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So I...shouldn't blame persons A, B, and C for causing the 6-year old's cancer?  I'm not really sure what you're saying here.  I'm not blaming god for causing the kid's cancer.  I'm blaming god for not curing the kid's cancer.
Not that. You shouldn't blame anyone for the consequence of a choice but the actors. (blame A B C a no one else, not even God)

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The burn is a direct consequence of you putting your hand into the fire.
The cancer is a direct consequence of the smoke the kid inhaled.
You're...you're NOT F*CKING GETTING IT, and I'm really unsure why that is.  It's not that f*cking hard Lukvance.  THE KID IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS CANCER.  THE KID HAD NO.  F*CKING.  CHOICE.  IN.  GETTING.  THE.  F*CKING.  CANCER..  This hand and fire sh*t does not f*cking apply.  You break that analogy out again and I AM GOING TO F*CKING LOSE IT.

Again, I am NOT saying that the kid is responsible for his cancer. You are the one repeating again and again that false idea.
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Can you imagine a world where no innocent people suffer?  Where the only ones to suffer as a result of consequence are the ones who are responsible for those consequences?  Is that not significantly more fair?  Is that not significantly more conducive to respecting free will?

Yes I can imagine and no it wont be more conductive to respecting free will. The will of the villain won't be respected. He wanted you to hurt and you did not hurt.

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And I gave you a damn out to that one, didn't I?  There is a point in time between the killer absolutely committing to killing you and harm actually coming to you.  God can *poof* the killer away right before harm comes to you.  Boom.  Jail.  Satisfies all of your requirements, except, perhaps, the part about innocent people actually suffering through no fault of their own.
Jail means that he must be rescued from jail by God since he might not be really responsible of wanting to kill me. There was some other factors exterior to his will that forced him to pull the trigger (an abusive father for example)
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 25, 2014, 10:54:24 PM
Could you elaborate?  What freedoms are removed from person A, B, and C[//b] after the 6-year old is healed of terminal cancer?

The cancer is the consequence of A B and C behavior. Not having a cancer or removing the cancer is removing the consequence of the choice made by A B and C.
So...the innocent suffer to teach others a lesson.  That is not a good thing.

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Not that. You shouldn't blame anyone for the consequence of a choice but the actors. (blame A B C a no one else, not even God)
I'm still blaming god for not curing the kid's cancer.  I'm sorry, but that's the case.  It's god's will that the innocent 6-year old kid suffer for things that the kid did not do.

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Again, I am NOT saying that the kid is responsible for his cancer. You are the one repeating again and again that false idea.
The point is that you think it is A-OK for the kid to suffer through no fault of his own.  And I find that monsterous.

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Yes I can imagine and no it wont be more conductive to respecting free will. The will of the villain won't be respected. He wanted you to hurt and you did not hurt.
So if it were a choice between the free will of the innocent victim or the free will of the guilty villain, you'd prefer that the villain's free will trumps the victim's?

Sorry...but what the fuck is wrong with you?  Are you a sick fuck or a complete and utter fucking moron?

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Jail means that he must be rescued from jail by God since he might not be really responsible of wanting to kill me. There was some other factors exterior to his will that forced him to pull the trigger (an abusive father for example)
You're a fucking moron.  I'm kinda done with this.  You don't really have the intellectual capacity to bum around a forum like this.  Holy shit.  I'm kinda shaking in rage at how fucking stupid you are right now.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 25, 2014, 11:07:42 PM
Insults insults. Do you have any control?
You don't give a better answer to the world.
Let us say that the there is no consequence whatsoever in the world. How is that better?
Let us say that there is consequence but only in certain cases. Who chose the cases? And what should consequence be?
For the record I would love that the kid get cured from cancer and maybe he will miraculously be cured. As I said, some information about this particular case are missing. I proposed that you took a real one instead of an invented one.
For the record it is the culprits (A B and C in this example) fault that the child is suffering not God.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Astreja on May 25, 2014, 11:16:46 PM
Luk, Jdawg's post raises a very interesting point:  Why is it that the free will of an attacker and the free will of a potential victim do not automatically cancel out, if there's a god behind the scenes trying to ensure that everyone gets their fair share of freedom?  It seems to Me that the main determinants in these conflicts are brute power and serendipity.  Without outside interference, such as third parties hearing a cry for help, the stronger party generally wins.  This is an exceedingly odd way for a benevolent god to conduct its affairs.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 25, 2014, 11:27:38 PM
Luk, Jdawg's post raises a very interesting point:  Why is it that the free will of an attacker and the free will of a potential victim do not automatically cancel out, if there's a god behind the scenes trying to ensure that everyone gets their fair share of freedom?  It seems to Me that the main determinants in these conflicts are brute power and serendipity.  Without outside interference, such as third parties hearing a cry for help, the stronger party generally wins.  This is an exceedingly odd way for a benevolent god to conduct its affairs.
"everyone gets their fair share of freedom?" That's the hardest part.
I like to go back to Adam and Eve and the forbidden fruit. They were free, God told them to not eat the fruit. They thought they knew better than him. If free will had a value, you could have say that their free will were higher than God's free will...and that wouldn't make any sense.
Should there not be any consequences?
Could a world without consequences exist?
Imagine a world were free will could cancel each other. What would happen in the case of Adam and Eve?
What would happen if I wanted to marry a girl and she wanted to marry someone who wants to marry me? Who's will should "win"
Whenever there is a decision to take, what would happen knowing that you parents might not approve?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Astreja on May 25, 2014, 11:36:46 PM
Adam and Eve are characters from a religious fable, Luk.  I'm thinking of more recent real-world examples:  For instance, why is it that if a man overpowers a woman with the intention of raping her and no one else intervenes to save her, her "free will" invariably loses to the "free will" of the domineering brute who attacked her?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 25, 2014, 11:44:37 PM
Adam and Eve are characters from a religious fable, Luk.  I'm thinking of more recent real-world examples:  For instance, why is it that if a man overpowers a woman with the intention of raping her and no one else intervenes to save her, her "free will" invariably loses to the "free will" of the domineering brute who attacked her?
That's one of my question.
Should there not be any consequences to your choices?
Could a world without consequences exist?
"her "free will" invariably loses to the "free will" of the domineering brute" What should be the outcome? The guy over power her and she leaves? The guy don't overpower her? The guy don't go outside looking for a woman to overpower? The guy doesn't get hit by his mother and dumped by his girlfriend? Why stop?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Astreja on May 26, 2014, 12:36:41 AM
It's worth noting, Luk, that even when rape victims pray to your alleged god to save them, their prayers are not answered.  What a useless god concept it is that you worship!  If I had 1/1000000th of the power that your god supposedly has, and just a smidgen of the omniscience, I'd be roaming the Earth with My Clue-By-Four™ and a collection of magic spells that would make an Conclave of archmagi #00FF00 with envy.  I'd rescue anyone in dire distress, and I wouldn't even care Whom, if anyone, they worshipped.

But to answer your question "Why stop?" -- Why bother with free will at all?  It's obvious that your god has completely lost control of its universe, except for a few quaint little Bible stories.  Did Pharaoh have free will to just let the Israelites go, or did he suffer repeated attacks of divinely-ordained atherosclerosis[1] that culminated in him chasing Moses et al. to the sea?  Did Mary have free will to resist the angel, or did your god's mad "salvation" scheme condemn her to bear a child out of wedlock?
 1. Exodus, chapters 7-15
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 26, 2014, 12:47:50 AM
If I had 1/1000000th of the power that your god supposedly has, and just a smidgen of the omniscience, I'd be roaming the Earth with My Clue-By-Four™ and a collection of magic spells that would make an Conclave of archmagi #00FF00 with envy.  I'd rescue anyone in dire distress, and I wouldn't even care Whom, if anyone, they worshipped.
Anyone? What would qualify as a problem needing your rescue and what would not? How would you judge? What would you do if there is more than 2 free will oposing each one?
Should there not be any consequences to your choices?
Could a world without consequences exist?
"her "free will" invariably loses to the "free will" of the domineering brute" What should be the outcome?

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But to answer your question "Why stop?" -- Why bother with free will at all?  It's obvious that your god has completely lost control of its universe, except for a few quaint little Bible stories.  Did Pharaoh have free will to just let the Israelites go, or did he suffer repeated attacks of divinely-ordained atherosclerosis[1] that culminated in him chasing Moses et al. to the sea?  Did Mary have free will to resist the angel, or did your god's mad "salvation" scheme condemn her to bear a child out of wedlock?
 1. Exodus, chapters 7-15

The Pharaoh's story is not a factual event.
Mary could have said no. She probably did in one of the parallel universes.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: eh! on May 26, 2014, 12:58:03 AM
Well i would rid the world of polio, oh wait science has already done that everywhere except places that don't allow it due to religious belief.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Astreja on May 26, 2014, 01:00:34 AM
What would qualify as a problem needing your rescue and what would not?
Any otherwise inescapable situation threatening life or limb, where no other help was available.

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How would you judge?
I'm a goddess, Luk.  I did a little locum in the Olympus justice system some aeons ago.  You probably don't recognize Me without the scales and the blindfold.[1]

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What would you do if there is more than 2 free will oposing each one?
Free will is not relevant here, as My decision is final and binding on all parties.  If 2 people, or 100 people, try to hurt 1 person, that 1 person gets rescued and the attackers all sustain non-life-threatening injuries at My hands that will make them think twice about mob violence in the future.

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Should there not be any consequences to your choices?
I really don't see a downside to rescuing people, so I'm quite prepared to face any consequences there may be -- Bearing in mind, of course, that the "consequences" may well be positive rather than negative.

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The Pharaoh's story is not a factual event.
Mary could have said no. She probably did in one of the parallel universes.
Nonetheless, the stories indicate that "free will" is not high on the Biblical deity's priorities.
 1. For the record, I peeked.  ;)
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 26, 2014, 02:00:56 AM
What will you do (as a goddess) in rare situations like : There is this evil kid that has been punished by you many times before and there is this other kid (good kid) that needs a heart. Is it ok to get the evil kid's heart to the good one? or would you go to the rescue of the evil kid that is being attacked by a horde of doctors and parents?

What if I wanted to marry a girl who wanted to marry another guy that did not want her? Who's will would win?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: eh! on May 26, 2014, 02:53:20 AM
Luk do people that die in earthquakes choose to die,?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Astreja on May 26, 2014, 10:31:36 AM
What will you do (as a goddess) in rare situations like : There is this evil kid that has been punished by you many times before and there is this other kid (good kid) that needs a heart. Is it ok to get the evil kid's heart to the good one? or would you go to the rescue of the evil kid that is being attacked by a horde of doctors and parents?

What if I wanted to marry a girl who wanted to marry another guy that did not want her? Who's will would win?

The evil kid still has autonomy over his body, and the good kid has no right whatsoever to his heart.  I would defend the evil kid's life and punish anyone who wanted to strip his body for parts.

If you want to marry her but she doesn't want to marry you, and the fellow she loves doesn't want to marry her, you'll all have to remain single or find willing partners elsewhere.

Seriously, Luk, this isn't divine rocket science.  This isn't anything that a human rights lawyer or an advice columnist in the local paper couldn't figure out without My help.  Are you seriously suggesting that I should take some sort of "Might makes right / end justifies the means" position and just recuse Myself from all situations where someone is getting hurt by others?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 26, 2014, 10:46:32 AM
What will you do (as a goddess) in rare situations like : There is this evil kid that has been punished by you many times before and there is this other kid (good kid) that needs a heart. Is it ok to get the evil kid's heart to the good one? or would you go to the rescue of the evil kid that is being attacked by a horde of doctors and parents?

What if I wanted to marry a girl who wanted to marry another guy that did not want her? Who's will would win?

I can't speak for goddesses, sadly, but I wouldn't mind dealing in the theology. Remind me - you god is suppose to be all-knowing, all-powerful and all-loving isn't he? Well then, if that's the case he could -

1.  The evil kid - god could, quite simply, change his 'heart' and make him loving.

2. The boy that needs a new organ, the heart,  - an all powerful being could fix that with a word, couldn't he? Yet he'd rather see a child die of something he could fix? Really?

3. In the end, relationships sort themselves out and people marry whom they choose. Sure they don't all work out, but so what? Who doesn't make the wrong choices? People usually only marry when they both have decided that's what they want so if the girl doesn't want to marry you it isn't going to happen.

So that was easy wasn't it... maybe a problem.... just small one...

Of course, your god, being only in your head has not power to do anything good or bad. he couldn't heal anyone, even if he wanted to and that rather makes the point about him. Imaginary gods don't do anything in the real world. Argue all you like but its true and inside you know it makes sense that way and  makes no sense to imagine a sky-daddy with those enormous powers who doesn't lift a finger to help[ a child who needs a replacement heart (due to him not have made sure the pregnancy worked out right[1]). 

Have a serious think about what you really think might be the case - you might even be surprised!
 1. Psalm 139
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 26, 2014, 04:15:15 PM
Luk do people that die in earthquakes choose to die,?
Not everyone. Some might.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 26, 2014, 04:33:21 PM
The evil kid still has autonomy over his body, and the good kid has no right whatsoever to his heart.  I would defend the evil kid's life and punish anyone who wanted to strip his body for parts.
So because I want to save my kid from dying you will punish me. How is that fair?
Oh wait, anyway my examples weren't correct, the little kid wouldn't be sick since you would've punish the evil virus or thing that would've made him sick in the first place. He would never get ill, nor get old. Same thing for the whole population of the earth, right?
Now what am I able to do. Can I be born even if my parents don't want me in this world? Will they be punished and I would be born anyway because of my will to live?
Can I have a steak instead of my broccoli? I won't get sick anyway, nor fat.
Can I raise my kids how I see fit?
Can I let my wife beat me if I want to even if my neighbors tells me that I should leave her? Or will you stop my wife against her and my will?

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Seriously, Luk, this isn't divine rocket science.  This isn't anything that a human rights lawyer or an advice columnist in the local paper couldn't figure out without My help.  Are you seriously suggesting that I should take some sort of "Might makes right / end justifies the means" position and just recuse Myself from all situations where someone is getting hurt by others?
I am suggesting that a world without consequences but the one you give per your own judgement will not be possible. There is a reason why God chose to let us free and not impose himself onto us.
I agree I'm having trouble finding exactly why but I know there are reasons that I heard on a lecture some time ago.
I think it relate to "real life" events where nothing is neither all good or all bad. It might be interpreted as a bad thing to rescue a women in distress in certain circumstances.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on May 26, 2014, 09:20:19 PM
Guy,guys,guys(and girls) It is simple Luk's thought pattern. The 6 year old with cancer deserves to die,but the 55 year old Atheist,who smoked,drank and sinned who was cured was done so by a miracle of God,simple really,yet unexplainable.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 26, 2014, 09:22:10 PM
Guy,guys,guys(and girls) It is simple Luk's thought pattern. The 6 year old with cancer deserves to die,but the 55 year old Atheist,who smoked,drank and sinned who was cured was done so by a miracle of God,simple really,yet unexplainable.
The kid doesn't deserve to die.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on May 26, 2014, 09:26:22 PM
Guy,guys,guys(and girls) It is simple Luk's thought pattern. The 6 year old with cancer deserves to die,but the 55 year old Atheist,who smoked,drank and sinned who was cured was done so by a miracle of God,simple really,yet unexplainable.
The kid doesn't deserve to die.
Jesus has absolved him of all sin,so YES he deserved to die....in God's eyes. does the 55 yr old deserve to be cured?

 you are now sighting environmental factors in cause of death of the 6 year old? God can't fix that?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on May 26, 2014, 09:32:12 PM
Jesus has either cured(fixed) the consequence of all sin or he has done NOTHING,the boy deserves to die as a result of sin or Jesus solved the problem with his sacrifice,and the child got cancer FROM factors like diet and the environment.

 The fact that you think SIN causes illness is retarded,as Jesus absolved ALL mankind from the consequence of sin,or he was not real,or not the son of a god.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Astreja on May 27, 2014, 12:00:44 AM
So because I want to save my kid from dying you will punish me. How is that fair?

For one thing, it keeps another child alive.  You don't get to judge an "evil" kid to be unworthy of life and summarily murder him for your personal idea of the "greater good."  For all you know, the kid whose organs you want to steal might be the forebear of someone who makes an outstanding contribution to society.  (I won't answer this question for you, either.  I deliberately work from a position of limited omniscience, without knowledge of the future, because I'd rather be working in the real world than observing hypothetical future ones.)

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Oh wait, anyway my examples weren't correct, the little kid wouldn't be sick since you would've punish the evil virus or thing that would've made him sick in the first place. He would never get ill, nor get old. Same thing for the whole population of the earth, right?

Wrong.  Life without the prospect of death and return to the ecosystem is like a kaleidoscope that can't change patterns:  Entertaining for a while, but ultimately boring.

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Now what am I able to do. Can I be born even if my parents don't want me in this world? Will they be punished and I would be born anyway because of my will to live?

I might drop by and chat with them if you were already at a stage of development that would enable you to survive outside the womb, and facilitate your transfer to a more congenial locale.  I wouldn't force your mother to give birth to you, nor would I force your parents to raise you if they had the option of letting someone else adopt you.  Hopefully, though, they practice proper birth control so that you wouldn't be conceived in the first place.

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Can I have a steak instead of my broccoli? I won't get sick anyway, nor fat.

*sigh*  I suggest you take that matter up with your family doctor.  If you want to do unto yourself things that could hurt you but no one else, I have no reason to intervene.

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Can I raise my kids how I see fit?

Within reason.  I'd step in immediately if you thought abusing the kids was a good way to raise them.

Quote
Can I let my wife beat me if I want to even if my neighbors tells me that I should leave her? Or will you stop my wife against her and my will?

If it's by mutual agreement, go right ahead.  May I suggest keeping the window shades lowered and taking steps to minimize any unpleasant noises that might frighten or annoy the neighbours, though?

Oh, and you should also have a system whereby you can get assistance -- Wait a minute; that's Me.  Já, just pray for help or something if 50 Shades of Luk gets to be too much.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 27, 2014, 12:57:57 AM
Thank you Astreja that was fun. The problem with my examples and any example is that they are not real.
In reality there is good coming out even of evil deeds. Preventing the evil deed would diminish the value of good in everything plus it remove the opportunity to stop, convert and do good.
As I said, there is a reason why God chose to let us free and not impose himself onto us. He want us to chose him (Love) willingly. I understand how giving us free will might allow evil to exist. But, ultimately, there is more good coming out of it than bad. It is a better thing to give us freedom than to impose his will.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: eh! on May 27, 2014, 02:10:11 AM
Agree yr examples and your god only exist in the mind.


How do you quantify there is more good than evil coming out of free will. and how do you conclude free will is better than not free will, do you just assume all this cos that's what you like to think..

you have never yet supplied any evidence yet other than god exists as a concept.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 27, 2014, 02:19:25 AM
How do you quantify there is more good than evil coming out of free will. and how do you conclude free will is better than not free will, do you just assume all this cos that's what you like to think..
How do I conclude free will is better? well I have never met someone who would think contrary. Are you a slave master?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: eh! on May 27, 2014, 02:50:07 AM
You claimed it is better, how did you reach this conclusion.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: epidemic on May 27, 2014, 08:53:27 AM
How do you quantify there is more good than evil coming out of free will. and how do you conclude free will is better than not free will, do you just assume all this cos that's what you like to think..
How do I conclude free will is better? well I have never met someone who would think contrary. Are you a slave master?

Slave master???  Slaves have free will as well.   There is a cost benefit analysis that controls the decision to exercise it but Spartacus proved that even slaves have free will.

As for the value of free will.  I don't know what the alternative would be.   If you are a thinking being with decision making capability, I think you may have free will no matter what.  Bacteria do not have free will, they have biologically controlled actions they perform.  They do not seem unhappy or happy.  Ants seem to be the same.  As we climb the evolutionary ladder to higher intelligence we start to see free will grow.   Now if god made me and used me as a tool and I obeyed his commands as if they were biological imperatives I would not be happier or sadder.  I frankly doubt I would think about it because it would simply be. 

Being angry at a lack of free will requires free will IMO.  Frankly in the absense of free will I believe you would not care.

Finally Free will is not freely executed IMO unless you are given the facts.  God intentionally obscures the facts of his existence, leaving me to make decisions with false, misleading  and or lacking evidence.   In the real world are best decsions made based on faith, but evidence and reason?  Should I walk out into Death Valley with faith I will find water or would it be better to have a current map?  One of the most powerful arguments against religion for me is this requirement of belief based upon faith.  Faith does not seem to be an ideal to strive for in other areas of my life.  Faith has little practical application in the real day to day world.   Why would god demand you make eternal life and death decision with only some of the facts?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: JoeNobody on May 27, 2014, 03:39:59 PM
Okay, if some guy walked in on a rapist about to commit rape, and stood by and did nothing to intervene, he would not be considered good or moral. Even to protect the rapists "free will".  Valuable as it may be, "free will" is trumped by the victim's well being.
I'm not sure I understand you. But the guy should intervene and use his "free will" to force the rapist to stop.

So then, this "God" character should use his "free will" to stop the rapist.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: JoeNobody on May 27, 2014, 03:43:24 PM
I am assuming that you are talking figuratively here. Are you?
No. You too can't do it without him.

I can breathe without the intervention of any deity. I'm doing it now.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: skeptic54768 on May 27, 2014, 03:50:11 PM
Hopefully this reply doesn't get "lost in the sauce" so to speak, but it takes a while for my posts to be approved by a moderator.

With that said, Lukvance is absolutely right. Free will is the reason we are able to love God. In order to love God, we have to be free to hate Him as well. If God did not allow hate to exist, then He can't allow love to exist either. Can't have one without the other.

This is a very simple concept and I am surprised atheists are confused about this. They claim to understand quantum physics, yet they can't understand free will. It's the strangest thing.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: skeptic54768 on May 27, 2014, 03:56:37 PM
I can breathe without the intervention of any deity. I'm doing it now.

Well, you certainly can't prove that.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: skeptic54768 on May 27, 2014, 03:58:43 PM
So then, this "God" character should use his "free will" to stop the rapist.

No, because this life is a test for us, not a test for God. God wants us to figure things out on our own. How else would we prove our worth to Him? It's all meaningless if He just interferes with every decision. Then we would just be puppets on a string.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 27, 2014, 04:18:51 PM
God intentionally obscures the facts of his existence, leaving me to make decisions with false, misleading  and or lacking evidence.
You could have all the evidence you need. God does not obscure the facts so look for them.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: One Above All on May 27, 2014, 04:51:19 PM
God intentionally obscures the facts of his existence, leaving me to make decisions with false, misleading  and or lacking evidence.
You could have all the evidence you need. God does not obscure the facts so look for them.

Pray tell, Lukvance, how do we acquire this evidence? And note that you said it was all the evidence [we] would need.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 27, 2014, 04:55:55 PM
Pray tell, Lukvance, how do we acquire this evidence? And note that you said it was all the evidence [we] would need.
You just need to ask. Reasonably.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 27, 2014, 04:59:31 PM
"Slaves have free will as well" Of course they have. But their are less free than the master. Look how removing just a little freedom affect humans and tell me if it's good or not to be free? Could you be free without free will?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: One Above All on May 27, 2014, 05:02:22 PM
Pray tell, Lukvance, how do we acquire this evidence? And note that you said it was all the evidence [we] would need.
You just need to ask. Reasonably.

Dear Lukvance's god, prove your existence to me by healing my cousin the very second this reply is posted on the forum.

Just so you know, I've prayed for this several times already, back when I was a believer. We'll see how your god fares. I have no doubt it will fail, as all gods do, as gods don't exist[1].
 1. Can anyone guess what Lukvance is going to use to "argue" against the fact that his god will fail miserably? I sure can.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 27, 2014, 05:09:54 PM
Pray tell, Lukvance, how do we acquire this evidence? And note that you said it was all the evidence [we] would need.
You just need to ask. Reasonably.
Isn't that god violating my free will to convince you that there is no evidence for god's existence?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 27, 2014, 05:22:33 PM
Isn't that god violating my free will to convince you that there is no evidence for god's existence?
No. God isn't doing anything here, I am.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 27, 2014, 05:25:47 PM
Dear Lukvance's god, prove your existence to me by healing my cousin the very second this reply is posted on the forum.
God wont impose his will unto others. Why would he impose yours?

Quote
Just so you know, I've prayed for this several times already, back when I was a believer.
That's too bad, I hope you understand now why it didn't work.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: One Above All on May 27, 2014, 05:33:11 PM
God wont impose his will unto others. Why would he impose yours?

Yet you impose your will unto others. What makes you better than your god?
And just so we're clear, I'm talking about this:
Isn't that god violating my free will to convince you that there is no evidence for god's existence?
No. God isn't doing anything here, I am.
Also, if that's your excuse, let me try something else.
Dear Lukvance's god, turn the paintings in my room (Starry Night and Café Terrace at Night; both by Van Gogh) into the originals, signed by the artist, while keeping the originals where they are.

That's too bad, I hope you understand now why it didn't work.

Do you even know what my cousin has? She's mentally handicapped. She has no will of her own, as far as any of us can tell. Sure, she's sentient and intelligent (she can understand a lot of things, such as turning lights on/off, playing the next/previous song on an iPod, how to put earphones on, and I believe she can also tie her own sandals[1]), but I (and others) have never seen her ask for or demonstrate an interest in (in the sense that she doesn't have "wants") anything; not even if it made her uncomfortable (thirst and hunger, for example; not even pain).

Scratch that; I just recalled there is something she wants. She wants the same thing a dog does: to be pet (metaphorically speaking). She wants to sit on our laps and hug us, while asking us to do things I don't know how to describe in English[2].
 1. The ones with velcro strips; I'm not sure if "tie" is the correct term here.
 2. It's not anything bad; I just lack the words to describe them.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: eh! on May 27, 2014, 05:38:48 PM
Well her condition is clearly a consequence of her choices, what you want no consequences and just be slaves with no free will.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 27, 2014, 05:52:21 PM
Isn't that god violating my free will to convince you that there is no evidence for god's existence?
No. God isn't doing anything here, I am.
But god is the one providing you the evidence.  He has to be doing something.

Or he doesn't provide you evidence.  Pick one.  Can't be both.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: One Above All on May 27, 2014, 05:53:38 PM
Well her condition is clearly a consequence of her choices, what you want no consequences and just be slaves with no free will.

eh!, because I know (or at least I believe) you don't mean any harm by this, I'll let it slide. Just know that, if you say shit like this again, I will be pissed. Same goes for you Lukvance, only remove the "again" in the last sentence.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: eh! on May 27, 2014, 06:34:58 PM
One no personal intended. i was going with luks logic. if you are going to post an example on a public forum about a loved one as an academic excercise i don't think you have a right to retort when others expand on the example YOU. bought into the public domain.


however i will respect your wishes, just remember everytime we post an example of someone who was in an accident or has a genetic condition or whatevet we are talking about someone's mother, brother, sister, husband, partner, daughter .....etc.


not trying to start anything or be cruel but lets think clearly.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 27, 2014, 06:51:20 PM
Yet you impose your will unto others. What makes you better than your god?
I'm not better than God and I don't impose my will unto others.

Quote
Dear Lukvance's god, turn the paintings in my room (Starry Night and Café Terrace at Night; both by Van Gogh) into the originals, signed by the artist, while keeping the originals where they are.
That would be great eh? For who? wouldn't that diminish the value of the originals. Would that make you happier? For how long?

Quote
Do you even know what my cousin has?
No, I don't. I'm really sad that she is sick. I will pray for her, the even in her sickness, she will find someone like you who love her so much that it makes her world more joyful/perfect.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 27, 2014, 06:55:32 PM
But god is the one providing you the evidence.  He has to be doing something. Or he doesn't provide you evidence.  Pick one.  Can't be both.
The evidence to what? To his existence? He gave me plenty already. I don't need more.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 27, 2014, 06:57:48 PM
One no personal intended. i was going with luks logic.
And failed. It is not my logic. It is only yours. Own it.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 27, 2014, 09:11:16 PM
But god is the one providing you the evidence.  He has to be doing something. Or he doesn't provide you evidence.  Pick one.  Can't be both.
The evidence to what? To his existence? He gave me plenty already. I don't need more.
Oh for cryin' out...

<breathes>

Ok.  I suppose it's possible that you didn't fathom the obvious point of the question.  It's certainly within the realm of possibility that you did not recognize that I meant the question in regards to someone who is still seeking evidence.  That is, wouldn't god be violating my free will to convince person A that there is no evidence of god if god provided this evidence at the behest of person A's desire for said evidence?

Come on Lukvance.  it is getting more and more difficult to take you remotely seriously.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 27, 2014, 09:34:03 PM
That is, wouldn't god be violating my free will to convince person A that there is no evidence of god if god provided this evidence at the behest of person A's desire for said evidence?
Oh! you mean is God impeding your will (which is to provide me with evidence that God does not exist) by providing me evidence of his existence? No he is not.
In any case : God is not violating someones will.
Let's take an extreme hypothetical case : You want to kill me barehanded. I ask god for a gun. He gives me a gun. God did not violate your will to kill me.
True story : I wanted that book, my parents didn't want to buy it for me. I had almost enough cash to buy it myself, was missing 2$. I prayed God to give me 2$. Then I went to the book store. Guess what I found on the road there? 2$. Usually people don't let 2$ out of their pockets on the street, we usually find 25 cents. That day, I found 2$. Did God impede with my parents will? No, I did :)
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: One Above All on May 28, 2014, 12:53:15 AM
I'm not better than God and I don't impose my will unto others.

That's not what you said in the post I quoted.

That would be great eh? For who? wouldn't that diminish the value of the originals. Would that make you happier? For how long?

It would be great for me for a myriad of reasons. It wouldn't diminish the value of the originals; it would just mean that there'd be two originals. And I'd never speak of this to anyone, so...
It would make me happier to see the originals for myself, and then I'd also have proof of your god. If you're talking about how long it'd make me happy for, not long. Because then I'd have to raise an army of iron chariots to kick its ass. Of course, as expected by me, every atheist, and, I suspect, even you, nothing happened. Nothing.happened. And nothing will ever happen, because gods are not real. If you mean for how long I'd like the switch to last for, just long enough for me to notice it.

No, I don't. I'm really sad that she is sick. I will pray for her, the even in her sickness, she will find someone like you who love her so much that it makes her world more joyful/perfect.

Ah, praying... The theists' way of saying "Fuck whomever; I just want to feel good about doing nothing.".
Thanks, but no thanks.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 28, 2014, 01:48:21 AM
I'm not better than God and I don't impose my will unto others.
That's not what you said in the post I quoted.
That's not what you INTERPRETED in the post you quoted. I know what I said and I didn't say I was better than God. Nor that I force anyone to believe in God.
Quote
It wouldn't diminish the value of the originals;
That's a lie. The rarer the thing is the more value it has.[1]
Quote
it would just mean that there'd be two originals.
Can't you see how crazy it is? You wish so hard to be right that you make up things.

Quote
If you're talking about how long it'd make me happy for, not long.
You are asking for a miracle. It won't be a miracle if the consequence are not long term and good.

I said :
I'm really sad that she is sick. I will pray for her, [so that] even in her sickness, she will find someone like you who love her so much that it makes her world more joyful/perfect.
You answered :
Quote
Ah, praying... The theists' way of saying "Fuck whomever; I just want to feel good about doing nothing".
Thanks, but no thanks.
Wouldn't that have been better if you to said "thank you for your support" instead of insulting me?
 1. http://blog.pricecharting.com/2012/07/the-10-rarest-most-expensive-video-games.html
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Boots on May 28, 2014, 07:33:17 AM
Quote
Perhaps a response to this:
The fact that anyone would allow an innocent person to suffer for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
or
The fact that anyone would not stop an innocent person from suffering for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
Would help clear the air.
Both are true if we talk about human beings, humans who can impose their will unto others. In God's case he allows the someone to do the transgression.
God could have stopped Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit but he chose not to because doing so would be going against their will.

emphasis added.

Luk, it seems clear that, since you cited Genesis as an example, you take the Old Testament literally.  Perhaps you could explain, then, how it is that Yahweh "hardened the heart of Pharoh" -- multiple times -- so that he could flex his divine muscles agianst Egypt, and how that was not a violation of the free will of Pharoh and the Egyptians he killed through the Ten Plagues.

Edit: in fact, Pharoh let The Chosen Ones go after the 10th plague of murdering all first born (free will?!?!), then Yahweh hardened Pharoh's heart AGAIN so he'd chase after them and Yahweh could then drown the entire army...

Luk, I know you've been busy, but it appears you missed this question.  If you're of a mind, would you consider answering it?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Graybeard on May 28, 2014, 07:38:39 AM
God is omnipotent indeed. He chose to not interfere directly without our consent in our lives because he created us free. He decided that being free is more important than all the sin in the world.
This is an apologists argument for why God never appears or does anything. The same can be said of dragons and unicorns.
Quote
It might not be the case one day, and that day might be the end of the world.
1. And pigs might fly.
2. and on the other hand, He might not do anything at all... ever...
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 28, 2014, 07:58:05 AM
That is, wouldn't god be violating my free will to convince person A that there is no evidence of god if god provided this evidence at the behest of person A's desire for said evidence?
Oh! you mean is God impeding your will (which is to provide me with evidence that God does not exist) by providing me evidence of his existence? No he is not.
In any case : God is not violating someones will.
Let's take an extreme hypothetical case : You want to kill me barehanded. I ask god for a gun. He gives me a gun. God did not violate your will to kill me.
True story : I wanted that book, my parents didn't want to buy it for me. I had almost enough cash to buy it myself, was missing 2$. I prayed God to give me 2$. Then I went to the book store. Guess what I found on the road there? 2$. Usually people don't let 2$ out of their pockets on the street, we usually find 25 cents. That day, I found 2$. Did God impede with my parents will? No, I did :)

How about another extreme case?  You wanted to give a 6-year old child terminal cancer.  The 6-year old's parents ask god to cure this cancer.  God cures the cancer.  Did god violate your free will?
Or another case?  You wanted to rape a woman.  The woman asks god to stop you.  God *poofs* you away.  Did god violate your free will?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 28, 2014, 07:58:52 AM
Can't you see how crazy it is? You wish so hard to be right that you make up things.
^^^Second most ironic post on the Internet.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: One Above All on May 28, 2014, 09:21:48 AM
That's not what you INTERPRETED in the post you quoted. I know what I said and I didn't say I was better than God. Nor that I force anyone to believe in God.

You said:
"God does not impose his will on others"
Then you said:
"I impose my will on others"
Therefore, either you're more powerful than your god (which is technically true, seeing as how it/he doesn't exist), or you're just better than it/him.

That's a lie. The rarer the thing is the more value it has.[1]
 1. http://blog.pricecharting.com/2012/07/the-10-rarest-most-expensive-video-games.html

As I said, it would just be until I saw it with my own eyes. It would turn back to its original state afterward. I might not have specified that in my post here, but I didn't think your god needed that tidbit. Or is it/he not omniscient? If so, we might as well end this conversation right here, as I will not bow to anything less than complete and utter perfection, which includes, but is not limited to, omniscience. Of course, if we took into account the way the world is, we'd end this conversation anyway.

Can't you see how crazy it is? You wish so hard to be right that you make up things.

Omnipotence much? Is your god not infinitely capable? Can't it just make a copy, atom by atom, of anything?

You are asking for a miracle. It won't be a miracle if the consequence are not long term and good.

So your god is just a pussy? It can't handle a small army of iron chariots? Well, I guess that settles that... Imma call Satan right now and give him a few tips. At least he answers the phone.

Quote from: Actual phone call between One Above All and Satan. TOTALLY, 110% LEGIT
*ringing*
*picking up*
OAA: Satan? 'Sup? It's me, Hélio.
Satan: Hey, guy. How's it going?
OAA: Fine, fine... Say, you know how you're always trying to get rid of that YHWH guy?
Satan: Oh, don't get me started... All I did was give you humans actual free will and actual knowledge by telling you the truth about the apple, and, all of a sudden, I'm the bad guy! They named me Satan and tossed me in Hell and everything! Do you even know what "Satan" means? It means "enemy". My name's Carl, for Hell's sake!
OAA: I know, right! That's why I wanted to call you. Have you ever actually read the Bible before since your creation by YHWH a few thousand years ago?
Satan: Not really...
OAA: Well, you should. There's this nifty trick about iron chariots and YHWH. Iron makes him limp, metaphorically speaking. Although I'm sure it also applies literally.
Satan: Really? Fancy that...
OAA: That's what I thought. I did some searching, and it seems that iron is seen in all cultures as something that protected them from evil.
Satan: Well, that explains a few things... Wait, where did you find out about this?
OAA: Wikipedia; where else? At least the iron being used as protection from evil thing. I saw YHWH's weakness against iron in the Bible itself.
Satan: Wow! Thanks, Hélio! I'm gonna raise an army using the iron from the Earth's core! Should be enough to create weapons for all my demons.
OAA: No problem. Tell me how it goes, alright?
Satan: Sure thing.
*click*

Well, I guess you'd better buckle up, Lukvance. Armageddon/The Apocalypse/The End is coming. By the time you finish reading this post, it will be Hell on Earth.

I said :
<snip>
Wouldn't that have been better if you to said "thank you for your support" instead of insulting me?

If you were providing support, sure. But you're not, and you know it.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: jtk73 on May 28, 2014, 01:22:09 PM
The cancer is a direct consequence of the smoke the kid inhaled.

WRONG! It is a direct "result". The smoker(s) are not realizing any direct consequences only in-direct consequences (suffering of or losing a child presumably related). The child is not realizing any direct consequences as the consequences the he/she is experiencing are not a result of any action of the child.

I like to go back to Adam and Eve and the forbidden fruit. They were free, God told them to not eat the fruit. They thought they knew better than him....

Bold mine. They did NOT think that they knew better than Yahweh. A talking animal (serpent), surely a rarity even in the garden of Eden, told them that it was okay. How would they determine the truth? Yahweh didn't swing by and hit the serpent with a newspaper and tell them to disregard everything the serpent spoke. He was nowhere to be found until it was too late.

The Pharaoh's story is not a factual event.

It doesn't matter. It still highlights what a huge, passive-aggressive a$$h0le Yahweh actually is.

You could have all the evidence you need.

Then why doesn't he (epidemic) have all of the evidence that he needs?

Quote
God does not obscure the facts so look for them.

Why would one have to look for them if they are not obscured??
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: JoeNobody on May 28, 2014, 01:43:51 PM
I can breathe without the intervention of any deity. I'm doing it now.

Well, you certainly can't prove that.

Since there are many, many, many proposed deities, it would be quicker to demonstrate that there IS on involved. I invite you to pray that your god interfere with my breathing. He needn't kill me, just stop my breathing for, say, a minute at 7:30pm central time.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Boots on May 28, 2014, 01:45:07 PM
The Pharaoh's story is not a factual event.
Mary could have said no. She probably did in one of the parallel universes.

how do you differentiate which events the bible depicts as factual or non-factual?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: JoeNobody on May 28, 2014, 01:47:09 PM
So then, this "God" character should use his "free will" to stop the rapist.

No, because this life is a test for us, not a test for God. God wants us to figure things out on our own. How else would we prove our worth to Him? It's all meaningless if He just interferes with every decision. Then we would just be puppets on a string.

So the victim must suffer for the sake of a test? Is your god not powerful enough to administer a test in which no one but the subject suffers?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 28, 2014, 01:54:19 PM
The Pharaoh's story is not a factual event.
Mary could have said no. She probably did in one of the parallel universes.

how do you differentiate which events the bible depicts as factual or non-factual?

They're all factual - some are factual for parallel universe A, some are factual for parallel universe B, and still others are factual for parallel universe C.  Lukvance knows that the Pharaoh's story isn't a factual event in this universe because love and math.  He knows Mary said 'yes' in this universe because of math and gravity.  He knows about the existence of these parallel universes because it's written in the Catholic catechisms in a different parallel universe.  He knows it's written in those catechisms because love and math.  He knows that what's written in those catechisms in that universe is true because of math and freedom.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: jtk73 on May 28, 2014, 02:15:42 PM
No, because this life is a test for us

Why would he do that? Why would he need to do that? So his test for us is for us to worship him or be tortured for eternity?

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God wants us to figure things out on our own.

That is awesome! I figured out that he doesn't exist! I am doing exactly what he wants me to do!

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How else would we prove our worth to Him?

INORITE! Who...is going to stroke his massive ego?

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It's all meaningless if He just interferes with every decision.

Absolutely. Much better to go with threats of damnation to achieve desired behavior.

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Then we would just be puppets on a string.

Just like perfect Adam and perfect Eve in the perfect garden of Eden. Puppets for Yahweh.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Jesuis on May 28, 2014, 03:25:34 PM
This is an apologists argument for why God never appears or does anything. The same can be said of dragons and unicorns.
Everything has been fine tuned and obeys laws of physics, biology and chemistry so that life can survive in the Goldilocks zone. This is not imaginary thinking - it is what it is. According to you all this is a freak accident of dead matter and billions of years of evolution of dead matter? Yet no dead matter has ever come to life in your experience. It is nothing more than you living in an imaginary world of your own creation.

Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: skeptic54768 on May 28, 2014, 05:55:47 PM
No, because this life is a test for us

Why would he do that? Why would he need to do that? So his test for us is for us to worship him or be tortured for eternity?

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God wants us to figure things out on our own.

That is awesome! I figured out that he doesn't exist! I am doing exactly what he wants me to do!

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How else would we prove our worth to Him?

INORITE! Who...is going to stroke his massive ego?

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It's all meaningless if He just interferes with every decision.

Absolutely. Much better to go with threats of damnation to achieve desired behavior.

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Then we would just be puppets on a string.

Just like perfect Adam and perfect Eve in the perfect garden of Eden. Puppets for Yahweh.

No, Adam and Eve were given a free choice. Just like parents give their child a free choice of "No cookies before dinner." Why doesn't the parent just hide the cookies? Because then the child wouldn't learn self-control and self-discipline.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 28, 2014, 08:46:59 PM
how do you differentiate which events the bible depicts as factual or non-factual?
I used what is called the historicity of the bible. And teachings/testimonies from other believers and the catechism :
126 "The Church holds firmly that the four Gospels, "whose historicity she unhesitatingly affirms, faithfully hand on what Jesus, the Son of God, while he lived among men, really did and taught for their eternal salvation, until the day when he was taken up."[1]
 1. http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/126.htm
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 28, 2014, 08:48:35 PM
Luk, I know you've been busy, but it appears you missed this question.  If you're of a mind, would you consider answering it?
I'm sorry what was the question?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 28, 2014, 08:52:59 PM
God is omnipotent indeed. He chose to not interfere directly without our consent in our lives because he created us free. He decided that being free is more important than all the sin in the world.
This is an apologists argument for why God never appears or does anything. The same can be said of dragons and unicorns.
Dragons created us? that's new...
God does things (indirectly). Everyday.

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It might not be the case one day, and that day might be the end of the world.
1. And pigs might fly.
2. and on the other hand, He might not do anything at all... ever...
Exactly!
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 28, 2014, 08:54:51 PM
How about another extreme case?  You wanted to give a 6-year old child terminal cancer.  The 6-year old's parents ask god to cure this cancer.  God cures the cancer.  Did god violate your free will?
Or another case?  You wanted to rape a woman.  The woman asks god to stop you.  God *poofs* you away.  Did god violate your free will?
I don't like these examples. Could you use one out of your personal experience?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 28, 2014, 09:41:45 PM
How about another extreme case?  You wanted to give a 6-year old child terminal cancer.  The 6-year old's parents ask god to cure this cancer.  God cures the cancer.  Did god violate your free will?
Or another case?  You wanted to rape a woman.  The woman asks god to stop you.  God *poofs* you away.  Did god violate your free will?
I don't like these examples. Could you use one out of your personal experience?
I'd prefer to not delve into personal experience on a topic like this, and on top of that, I do not see in what way you would like personal examples over hypothetical examples representative of scenarios that occur in reality.  It is irrelevant whether the examples are personal or not.

Could you explain why you do not like these examples?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 28, 2014, 10:06:24 PM
I'd prefer to not delve into personal experience on a topic like this, and on top of that, I do not see in what way you would like personal examples over hypothetical examples representative of scenarios that occur in reality.  It is irrelevant whether the examples are personal or not.

Could you explain why you do not like these examples?
Hypothetical example like yours lack the small things that makes life and decisions like the questions you ask more complicated than the hypothetical examples.
The kid and the rape examples are consequences of sin. They are not hapoy things to dwell on.
Someone asked me one day: "do you think you have the merit to live?" Today I am living this life in a way that when I die I would be closer to say yes than I am today.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: One Above All on May 29, 2014, 03:42:41 AM
That's not what you INTERPRETED in the post you quoted. I know what I said and I didn't say I was better than God. Nor that I force anyone to believe in God.

You said:
"God does not impose his will on others"
Then you said:
"I impose my will on others"
Therefore, either you're more powerful than your god (which is technically true, seeing as how it/he doesn't exist), or you're just better than it/him.

I'd also like to note that your god DOES impose its/his will onto others. What was creation? Creating things (I'm talking about humans specifically) that didn't want to be created. Eden? Your god gave specific instructions/demands NOT to eat the apple of knowledge of good and evil. So, per your own Bible, you're WRONG.
Quod erat demonstrandum.

So your god is just a pussy? It can't handle a small army of iron chariots? Well, I guess that settles that... Imma call Satan right now and give him a few tips. At least he answers the phone.

Unsurprisingly, nothing happened... Awkward!
Either Satan failed, in which case he'd have come to drag me to Hell or whatever, and the Bible was lying, or neither he nor your god exist.

EDIT: Also, still waiting for those paintings to change... I guess your god will get around to it in, oh say... never.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 29, 2014, 11:14:24 AM
I'd prefer to not delve into personal experience on a topic like this, and on top of that, I do not see in what way you would like personal examples over hypothetical examples representative of scenarios that occur in reality.  It is irrelevant whether the examples are personal or not.

Could you explain why you do not like these examples?
Hypothetical example like yours lack the small things that makes life and decisions like the questions you ask more complicated than the hypothetical examples.
The kid and the rape examples are consequences of sin. They are not hapoy things to dwell on.
Could you perhaps add some hypothetical details and decisions that would make it such that god did violate your free will in those cases, and some hypothetical details and decisions that would make it such that god did not violate your free will?

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Someone asked me one day: "do you think you have the merit to live?" Today I am living this life in a way that when I die I would be closer to say yes than I am today.
I have no idea how this relates to anything.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Boots on May 29, 2014, 11:26:00 AM
I'm sorry what was the question?

it's quoted in this link:


Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 30, 2014, 01:47:14 AM
I'd also like to note that your god DOES impose its/his will onto others. What was creation?
"God created the world to show forth and communicate his glory. That his creatures should share in his truth, goodness and beauty - this is the glory for which God created them."[1]
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Creating things (I'm talking about humans specifically) that didn't want to be created.
How do you know that they had a will before being created? Are you saying that giving birth is not a good thing?
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Eden? Your god gave specific instructions/demands NOT to eat the apple of knowledge of good and evil. So, per your own Bible, you're WRONG.

Not at all. You are hugely mistaken. Demanding is not impairing your free will.
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Unsurprisingly, nothing happened... Awkward!
Either Satan failed, in which case he'd have come to drag me to Hell or whatever, and the Bible was lying, or neither he nor your god exist.
Have you finished with your fantasy ? Can we go back to the subject at hand?
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EDIT: Also, still waiting for those paintings to change... I guess your god will get around to it in, oh say... never.
Keep waiting? I thought I demonstrated to you how crazy this idea was and how it could never work. Maybe I wasn't clear enough. No I won't pray for you paintings to change.
 1. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm#I
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 30, 2014, 02:04:22 AM
I'd prefer to not delve into personal experience on a topic like this, and on top of that, I do not see in what way you would like personal examples over hypothetical examples representative of scenarios that occur in reality.  It is irrelevant whether the examples are personal or not.

Could you explain why you do not like these examples?
Hypothetical example like yours lack the small things that makes life and decisions like the questions you ask more complicated than the hypothetical examples.
The kid and the rape examples are consequences of sin. They are not hapoy things to dwell on.
Could you perhaps add some hypothetical details and decisions that would make it such that god did violate your free will in those cases, and some hypothetical details and decisions that would make it such that god did not violate your free will?

How about another extreme case?  You wanted to give a 6-year old child terminal cancer.  The 6-year old's parents ask god to cure this cancer.  God cures the cancer.  Did god violate your free will?

In that hypothetical case, Yes. He wouldn't have violate my free will if he did not cure the kid cancer and let me enough time to inject the cure into the test subject (the child.)
Or another case?  You wanted to rape a woman.  The woman asks god to stop you.  God *poofs* you away.  Did god violate your free will?

In that hypothetical case, Yes.  He wouldn't have violate my free will if he did not poof me away and allowed me to explain to my handicapped amnesic wife that we are married and that I was just wanted to change her gown.

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Quote from: Lukvance
Someone asked me one day: "do you think you have the merit to live?" Today I am living this life in a way that when I die I would be closer to say yes than I am today.
I have no idea how this relates to anything.
It was an attempt to return to the question at hand "why is there sin in the world?" by explaining why I lived my sinful life with God.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 30, 2014, 02:07:09 AM
I'm sorry what was the question?
it's quoted in this link:
Still not seeing any questions.
"Pharoh let The Chosen Ones go after the 10th plague of murdering all first born (free will?!?!)" Is that it? If so I don't understand it. You think that the 10 plague are real historical facts?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 30, 2014, 02:30:22 AM
*cough*

How is sin still being equated with free will, when we don't even know whether we live in a world with free will?

Say the world was like Newton believed: everything going like clockwork, with nothing happening that wasn't planned. People would still be doing sinful things, as defined by the Bible; yet, there would be no free will.

When Luk says "free will" he actually means "human", because, as we know, animals can't sin, because they have no free will. (circular definition)

There are some types of "sin" that I can think of
(1) individual survival: here an individual steals food off another, so he can survive. This is defined as a sin by the Bible, but animals have no problem doing it. Stealing can make life easier for the animal/person that does it.
(2) stimulatory decadence: person gets hooked on drugs and drags their girlfriend into it. He then lives with dope addicts, surrounded by stolen parts, and melodramatic people sleeping in his hallway, stealing his stuff. Cool lifestyle, bro.
(3) optional psychopathic sin: person just decides to kill his neighbour, or steal funds from retirement fund, for kicks

So, you can see that some sin makes your life easier, and some sin makes your life harder. Screw around and get HIV; your life gets harder. Behave like a suburban square and play by the rules, never give money to charity, then your life gets easier.

The types of sin that we are compelled to do, because we need to survive, are things where we have diminished freedom. Jesus says "give all your money away", but nobody does, because it's idiotic. We don't have the free will do do what he says, because the system will make it difficult for us. Jesus says don't think about food, yet every animal has to think about food, or it dies. Some can elect to be vegetarian, because they regard killing animals as a sin. However, most humans are probably compelled to commit this sin, due to lack of freedom. We are born to sin in this way, just as we like jerking off and screwing around.

Another thing which diminishes freedom is a brain tumour, that makes you so bad tempered that you want to shoot kids in school. When a child does that, he is a deemed an evil sinner, but when a brain scan shows a tumour, everyone suddenly understands that he had diminished freedom. Then he's a poor victim.

The reason Christianity likes the words "free will", is that it's all about blame. The religion just doesn't work without people blaming and judging, being neurotic and guilty.

You cannot prove whether or not we live in a deterministic universe with no free will, and even if we lived in one where events could be random, the deck is still stacked against us, because of diminished freedom.

Christianity likes to pretend that the guy in the wheelchair with allergies, had the freedom to get healed and give his money away and go help people in Africa, because keeping that dream alive helps people be in a perpetual state of guilt.

BLAME: that's all it's about.

Define humans to have free will, without showing any evidence or examining what it really is, and then say "you chose to go to hell - not God's fault". END OF STORY.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 30, 2014, 03:12:06 AM
BTW, what I just said, answers this thread terribly well. There is sin in the world because some people need to blame others for various things.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 30, 2014, 09:29:17 AM
How about another extreme case?  You wanted to give a 6-year old child terminal cancer.  The 6-year old's parents ask god to cure this cancer.  God cures the cancer.  Did god violate your free will?

In that hypothetical case, Yes. He wouldn't have violate my free will if he did not cure the kid cancer and let me enough time to inject the cure into the test subject (the child.)
But that's sort of the opposite of the case I was presenting.  If god did cure the cancer, did god violate your free will?

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Or another case?  You wanted to rape a woman.  The woman asks god to stop you.  God *poofs* you away.  Did god violate your free will?

In that hypothetical case, Yes.  He wouldn't have violate my free will if he did not poof me away and allowed me to explain to my handicapped amnesic wife that we are married and that I was just wanted to change her gown.
But that's sort of the opposite of the case I was presenting.  If god did *poof* you away, did god violate your free will?

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Quote
Quote from: Lukvance
Someone asked me one day: "do you think you have the merit to live?" Today I am living this life in a way that when I die I would be closer to say yes than I am today.
I have no idea how this relates to anything.
It was an attempt to return to the question at hand "why is there sin in the world?" by explaining why I lived my sinful life with God.
Ok.  Though I don't see in what way it is a response, let alone an answer, to the question "why is there sin in the world?"
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 30, 2014, 12:22:49 PM
Say the world was like Newton believed: everything going like clockwork, with nothing happening that wasn't planned. People would still be doing sinful things, as defined by the Bible; yet, there would be no free will.
[...] You cannot prove whether or not we live in a deterministic universe with no free will.
Are you trying to waste our time here? Why propose something that you admit cannot be proved?

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When Luk says "free will" he actually means "human", because, as we know, animals can't sin, because they have no free will. (circular definition)

You made a mistake by assuming what I mean. Humans are not the only ones with free will.
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There are some types of "sin" that I can think of
(1) individual survival: here an individual steals food off another, so he can survive. This is defined as a sin by the Bible, but animals have no problem doing it. Stealing can make life easier for the animal/person that does it.
(2) stimulatory decadence: person gets hooked on drugs and drags their girlfriend into it. He then lives with dope addicts, surrounded by stolen parts, and melodramatic people sleeping in his hallway, stealing his stuff. Cool lifestyle, bro.
(3) optional psychopathic sin: person just decides to kill his neighbour, or steal funds from retirement fund, for kicks

You are wrong. There is only one type of sin : saying "no" to God. (or in the case of atheist to their conscience)
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So, you can see that some sin makes your life easier, and some sin makes your life harder. Screw around and get HIV; your life gets harder. Behave like a suburban square and play by the rules, never give money to charity, then your life gets easier.
Sin will never make life easier. Not giving your money to charity doesn't get you a job.
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Jesus says "give all your money away",
You made a mistake. He did not teach us that. You should read the passage again.
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Jesus says don't think about food,

Again, another mistake. You should really refresh your memory.
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However, most humans are probably compelled to commit this sin, due to lack of freedom.

You are wrong. Eating animals is not a sin. God asked st peter to KILL and eat animals.
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Another thing which diminishes freedom is a brain tumour, that makes you so bad tempered that you want to shoot kids in school. When a child does that, he is a deemed an evil sinner, but when a brain scan shows a tumour, everyone suddenly understands that he had diminished freedom. Then he's a poor victim.

We agree, but how is this related to God? If you want to list all the things that diminish our freedom, you won't have enough space on the internet. (or time)
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The reason Christianity likes the words "free will", is that it's all about blame. The religion just doesn't work without people blaming and judging, being neurotic and guilty.

And you know that because...?
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even if we lived in one [universe] where events could be random, the deck is still stacked against us, because of diminished freedom

You need to prove how is your freedom giving us less power against the deck. I would think it is the opposite, freedom allows us to fight the deck that is stacked against us.
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Christianity likes to pretend that the guy in the wheelchair with allergies, had the freedom to get healed and give his money away and go help people in Africa, because keeping that dream alive helps people be in a perpetual state of guilt.

And you know that because...?
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BLAME: that's all it's about.

Prove it.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 30, 2014, 12:23:57 PM
BTW, what I just said, answers this thread terribly well. There is sin in the world because some people need to blame others for various things.
You are right. Sin in this world is because of PEOPLE not GOD :)
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Astreja on May 30, 2014, 12:51:42 PM
Sin in this world is because of PEOPLE not GOD :)

Takes two to tango, Luk.  Perhaps if your purported god wasn't perennially perturbed about picayune peccadilos like leavened loaves, scarfing of shrimp scampi, and working on the weekend, "sin" would be a non-issue and painful and lethal childhood illnesses would just magically go away.

Or perhaps not.  I think it far more likely that there is no supernatural component at all to suffering, and that sin bad stuff simply can't be prevented or eliminated by a god who was never there in the first place.

Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 30, 2014, 01:08:04 PM
How about another extreme case?  You wanted to give a 6-year old child terminal cancer.  The 6-year old's parents ask god to cure this cancer.  God cures the cancer.  Did god violate your free will?

In that hypothetical case, Yes. He wouldn't have violate my free will if he did not cure the kid cancer and let me enough time to inject the cure into the test subject (the child.)
But that's sort of the opposite of the case I was presenting.  If god did cure the cancer, did god violate your free will?

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Or another case?  You wanted to rape a woman.  The woman asks god to stop you.  God *poofs* you away.  Did god violate your free will?

In that hypothetical case, Yes.  He wouldn't have violate my free will if he did not poof me away and allowed me to explain to my handicapped amnesic wife that we are married and that I was just wanted to change her gown.
But that's sort of the opposite of the case I was presenting.  If god did *poof* you away, did god violate your free will?

It has been brought to my attention that I have been in error with the above, and Lukvance has indeed answered my questions.  Lukvance does say that yes, in the hypothetical situations I presented, god does indeed violate his free will.

What I don't understand yet is why Lukvance doesn't consider the situation of god providing evidence of his existence to person A when person B does not want person A to have this evidence to be a violation of person B's free will.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: One Above All on May 30, 2014, 04:26:24 PM
"God created the world to show forth and communicate his glory. That his creatures should share in his truth, goodness and beauty - this is the glory for which God created them."[1]
 1. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm#I

So your god just wanted to tell someone how great it/he was? If a human did that, you know what we'd call them? Egocentric.

How do you know that they had a will before being created? Are you saying that giving birth is not a good thing?

Your god, being omniscient and all, could and, if it/he exists, did foresee that some would not wish to have been created. So, while they did not have a will, technically, from your god's perspective, they might as well have had.
Giving birth can be a bad thing.

Not at all. You are hugely mistaken. Demanding is not impairing your free will.

A demand from an omnipotent being that can, quite literally, toss you into Hell for all eternity if you don't do as it asks isn't impairing free will? Tell me, if you see someone robbing a bank with a gun and demanding others get on their knees, are they not impairing the other people's free will, even if they don't actually harm them?

Have you finished with your fantasy ? Can we go back to the subject at hand?

So Satan isn't real? Are you telling me my phone call was a delusion? Such a believer... Next you'll be telling me that your god isn't real either! Just when I was starting to believe too... &)

Keep waiting? I thought I demonstrated to you how crazy this idea was and how it could never work.

Is your god not omnipotent? Can't it/he even just make it look as if the paintings had turned into the originals, without actually turning them into the originals? *looks up* I guess not... Your god sucks.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. No I won't pray for you paintings to change.

I don't need you to. I prayed for that. Nothing happened, as you and I, and every other human being on Earth who has ever or will ever live expected. Now you're just making excuses.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 30, 2014, 08:05:30 PM
What I don't understand yet is why Lukvance doesn't consider the situation of god providing evidence of his existence to person A when person B does not want person A to have this evidence to be a violation of person B's free will.

I don't understand the question.
I am A you are B. Why god doesn't provide you proof of his existence when You don't want me to have this evidence to be a violation of my will?
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Jag on May 30, 2014, 09:14:28 PM
Are you trying to waste our time here? Why propose something that you admit cannot be proved?

 :laugh:
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Jesuis on May 30, 2014, 11:27:59 PM
You are wrong. Eating animals is not a sin. God asked st peter to KILL and eat animals.
Genesis 1 verse 29. God says what you should eat.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Jesuis on May 30, 2014, 11:32:43 PM

I don't need you to. I prayed for that. Nothing happened, as you and I, and every other human being on Earth who has ever or will ever live expected. Now you're just making excuses.
Surely you do not mean every other human being on earth. And you can really only be sure for yourself, and we all know that could change depending on circumstances.
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: Lukvance on May 30, 2014, 11:33:15 PM
Are you trying to waste our time here? Why propose something that you admit cannot be proved?

 :laugh:
It's not really cool to mock Add Homonym like that. He's not used to someone underlining the fact that he is not sticking to the subject at hand. And you are not helping either :(
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: JoeNobody on July 01, 2014, 10:07:25 AM
I can breathe without the intervention of any deity. I'm doing it now.

Well, you certainly can't prove that.

Since there are many, many, many proposed deities, it would be quicker to demonstrate that there IS on involved. I invite you to pray that your god interfere with my breathing. He needn't kill me, just stop my breathing for, say, a minute at 7:30 pm central time.

It has been over a month since I made this post. Since then, my breathing has not been interrupted once. I therefore conclude that there are no gods who control my breathing. 
Title: Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on July 01, 2014, 10:48:35 AM
Funny luk is one of the theists here who claim the OT is just a group of gathered stories made  as a manual  for teaching mankind how to live..... Then they use it as a reference guide for actual factual events they claim are real.

 How can you have it both ways...it's either fact or it's story.....not both.