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Main Discussion Zone => General Religious Discussion => Topic started by: junebug72 on July 26, 2013, 08:36:44 AM

Title: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: junebug72 on July 26, 2013, 08:36:44 AM
A Creator gives meaning and purpose to this hard life we live.  A reason for existing.  Luck doesn't do that.  Luck doesn't console the mind that doesn't want to die or the loved ones left behind. 

Did luck even exist before mankind.  Where did luck come from? 

It seems more likely to me that there was and is a Creator with a reason for Creating life.

My biggest question would be; how do you believe in "luck" but snub superstitions.  Luck is a type of superstition.  Who had the rabbit's foot when The Big Bang took place?

Either way It was best said by the Theoretical Physics professor that narrated the How the Universe Works, Expanded episode I watched yesterday.  There is much more to learn and the universe is still a mystery.  He says this at the end of every episode.  That is the only real truth.

I'm looking forward to Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman next Wednesday night at 10 pm.  Maybe it will shed some light on this long drawn out and never ending debate. 
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: Ron Jeremy on July 26, 2013, 08:57:00 AM
As Dan Barker pointed out "What reason for existing does the Creator have?". If you believe in a god that gives you purpose, what if he has none himself?

When I searched for god and came to conclusion he didn't exist, that also took away any belief I had in anything supernatural and concepts of an intelligent force driving things like fate or luck. I still use the words of course; I was lucky a couple of months ago when I went into a corner way too fast on my bike but got out the other side. But no supernatural entity had a hand in it, not unless they make sticky tyres for my Kawasaki.

I'd be surprised if any atheist believes in 'luck' apart from being merely a word to describe an event playing out to your advantage.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: Dante on July 26, 2013, 09:04:22 AM
A Creator gives meaning and purpose to this hard life we live.  A reason for existing.  Luck doesn't do that.  Luck doesn't console the mind that doesn't want to die or the loved ones left behind. 

Your appeals to emotion mean nothing, JB, to anyone but yourself. As a wise man once said, "The truth doesn't give a shit about your feelings."

Just because you feel you should be special, should have a "higher purpose", doesn't make it so. And, just because your mind isn't consoled, doesn't mean others aren't as well. The way the universe works is actually quite consoling for me, as a matter of fact. I lost a very dear friend, at far too young an age not long ago, and I do find solace in the fact that his "better place" is oblivion.

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Did luck even exist before mankind.  Where did luck come from?

Luck, as you're using it, would better be called statistical probability. And yes, it existed. 

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It seems more likely to me that there was and is a Creator with a reason for Creating life.

Based on what? Your feelings?

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My biggest question would be; how do you believe in "luck" but snub superstitions.  Luck is a type of superstition.  Who had the rabbit's foot when The Big Bang took place?

Nope. Again, statistical probability.

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Either way It was best said by the Theoretical Physics professor that narrated the How the Universe Works, Expanded episode I watched yesterday.  There is much more to learn and the universe is still a mystery.  He says this at the end of every episode.  That is the only real truth.

Sure, but we're learning more and more every day, unravelling the mysteries. And that's the cool part, no?

Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: jaimehlers on July 26, 2013, 09:16:42 AM
I have to disagree.  God is not more likely than luck.  Indeed, the opposite is true, at least unless you think of 'luck' as its own entity, capable of blessing its proponents and followers.  Needless to say, this view of luck is just another deity.

Random chance, whether good or bad, has been observed countless times - indeed, the very word 'likely' refers to probability.  To talk about God being "more likely" than luck, or luck "more likely" than God, rather misses the point.  An atheist who doesn't believe in gods isn't going to believe in a luck deity either.  But it's been pretty conclusively demonstrated that random events happen all the time.  Sometimes those events are good, sometimes bad, but there's no force behind them, picking and choosing people to give good or bad luck to.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: stuffin on July 26, 2013, 09:27:09 AM
A Creator gives meaning and purpose to this hard life we live.  A reason for existing.  Luck doesn't do that.  Luck doesn't console the mind that doesn't want to die or the loved ones left behind. 

Did luck even exist before mankind.  Where did luck come from? 

It seems more likely to me that there was and is a Creator with a reason for Creating life.

My biggest question would be; how do you believe in "luck" but snub superstitions.  Luck is a type of superstition.  Who had the rabbit's foot when The Big Bang took place?

Either way It was best said by the Theoretical Physics professor that narrated the How the Universe Works, Expanded episode I watched yesterday.  There is much more to learn and the universe is still a mystery.  He says this at the end of every episode.  That is the only real truth.

I'm looking forward to Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman next Wednesday night at 10 pm.  Maybe it will shed some light on this long drawn out and never ending debate.


Luck = Timing/Happenstance

If I left my house 2 seconds sooner (or 2 seconds later), that rock tossed up in traffic would not have cracked my winshield.

My timing created my bad luck.

Good luck, bad luck is how people label the events in their lives, there really is not such thing as LUCK.

Luck is just the coincidences or events that happen by chnace. 

Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: Mrjason on July 26, 2013, 09:42:03 AM
Its easier to say "wow that was lucky" than "wow that event was, statically, highly unlikely to turn out in my favour but despite all probability it has"
Both are essentially the same though.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: The Gawd on July 26, 2013, 09:46:15 AM
So, in this thread there still is no evidence of this "god" but instead a baseless assertion that this entity with no evidence is more likely than a natural phenomenon observed daily. Interesting.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on July 26, 2013, 09:50:24 AM
If there is a creator/someone in charge of everything - then I would have to believe some sick bastard is orchestrating or ignoring the complete train wreck that is my life.  That is why I had to stop.  Shit just happens.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: ParkingPlaces on July 26, 2013, 10:02:03 AM
As several have said, "luck" is just a term we all use when things turn out better than they could have. The odds are that sometimes things will turn out good, sometimes bad. Actual luck doesn't exist. In hindsight we sometimes pretend it does. And yes, there are times when I have hoped for a particular outcome and gotten what I wanted. More often it has turned out worse than I wanted (That's what I get for being a White Sox fan). It's a law of averages thing, not something real.

God? Lucky us. He doesn't exist at all. We are a tyrant-free universe (if you don't count some human wannabe's) and I prefer that it stay that way. What I want is irrelevant. The ability of reality to create gods is zero.

So if I choose to do so, I can say that we are lucky that we don't have a god. I am wise enough not to bother in this case. I have calmly accepted the status quo and have no need to make myself feel special regarding the situation.

I know the god thing makes you feel better, junebug. Your mind needs such things. Minds are capable of making stuff up. And/or accepting stuff made up by others. You feel your life is better because of such things.

Luckily for you that's possible. Otherwise you'd be stuck in the middle of reality for your whole life.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: The Gawd on July 26, 2013, 10:08:42 AM
As several have said, "luck" is just a term we all use when things turn out better than they could have. The odds are that sometimes things will turn out good, sometimes bad. Actual luck doesn't exist. In hindsight we sometimes pretend it does. And yes, there are times when I have hoped for a particular outcome and gotten what I wanted. More often it has turned out worse than I wanted (That's what I get for being a White Sox fan). It's a law of averages thing, not something real.

God? Lucky us. He doesn't exist at all. We are a tyrant-free universe (if you don't count some human wannabe's) and I prefer that it stay that way. What I want is irrelevant. The ability of reality to create gods is zero.

So if I choose to do so, I can say that we are lucky that we don't have a god. I am wise enough not to bother in this case. I have calmly accepted the status quo and have no need to make myself feel special regarding the situation.

I know the god thing makes you feel better, junebug. Your mind needs such things. Minds are capable of making stuff up. And/or accepting stuff made up by others. You feel your life is better because of such things.

Luckily for you that's possible. Otherwise you'd be stuck in the middle of reality for your whole life.
Bold mine.

You brought this on yourself buddy. When youre in cahoots with the devil, what do you expect?
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: JeffPT on July 26, 2013, 10:12:29 AM
A Creator gives meaning and purpose to this hard life we live.  A reason for existing.  Luck doesn't do that.  Luck doesn't console the mind that doesn't want to die or the loved ones left behind. 

The day you start believing in the existence of something just because it makes you feel better is also the same day you stop caring about what's true and not true.

Give me the cold hard truth over a comforting lie any day of the week.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: wright on July 26, 2013, 10:25:04 AM
My biggest question would be; how do you believe in "luck" but snub superstitions.  Luck is a type of superstition.  Who had the rabbit's foot when The Big Bang took place?

As others have already pointed out, atheists believe in luck because we can see it happening. Significant events, good and bad, happen to people all the time. Sometimes they can be attributed to deliberate action, sometimes random chance. Before humans existed, it happened to our distant animal ancestors, and before them to nonliving things. Causality can be extended right back to the Big Bang with no problem at all.

Either way It was best said by the Theoretical Physics professor that narrated the How the Universe Works, Expanded episode I watched yesterday.  There is much more to learn and the universe is still a mystery.  He says this at the end of every episode.  That is the only real truth.

Few atheists would disagree with that. I will point out, however, that so far empirical evidence supporting a universe-creator is zero, and evidence that the universe supports itself is quite abundant.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: Nick on July 26, 2013, 10:40:31 AM
Instead of luck you have just substituted a security blanket.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: Hatter23 on July 26, 2013, 10:51:24 AM
"More Likely" means something related to probability, ergo luck based. Your statement is already a nonsense contradiction before you even start to justify it.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: Cycle4Fun on July 26, 2013, 12:07:11 PM
It seems more likely to me that there was and is a Creator with a reason for Creating life.

My biggest question would be; how do you believe in "luck" but snub superstitions. 
[/quote]

This is a repost from a different thread that fits better here.

Junebug, you seem to believe in a deist type god.  A morally good god who set things rolling and has been hands off ever since.  If that's different from what you actually believe, we'll need more clarification!

The only reason I see you've given for believing in god is the design you see in the universe.  You've acknowledged and understood the flaws in revealed religions such as Christianity.  That's good!  You and many atheists have much common ground.  Allow me to explain why I don't believe in a deist type god, or any god for that matter and why the reason for your belief is fatally flawed.

In doing so, I'll ignore the theory of evolution (how life came to be the way it is today), abiogenesis (hypothesis on how life began), and non-classical physics (how the universe works).  None of it matters.  All that we have to agree on is this:

The best way to determine what is true is to use a combination of logic and our senses and observations.  When we find something we think is true, it should be repeated to verify the earlier observation.  Preferably by someone else to ensure what we think is not a figment of our imagination.  If you don't agree with that statement we have no common ground.  and I would like to know why you disagree.

Why don't I believe in a god?  It's so simple, often those I've encountered who ask me this question have trouble wrapping their head around it.  I don't believe in a god or creator of the universe because there is no evidence or reason to think one exists!  There is nothing more to it.  I use the same logic monotheists use to dismiss all of the thousands of other gods man has believed in.  I just go one further.

You, with a deist type belief say, "I see the universe and I don't know how it came to be, therefore creator."  I say, "I see the universe and I don't know how it came to be."

You've assigned a cause to the universe when you really don't know.  Human's have been doing it for thousands of years.  Why does the Sun come up?  Ra!  What is lightning?  Zues!  Where the theist says, "I don't know, therefore my god/s."  Atheists say, "i don't know."

Else it's turtles all the way down!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down

It takes courage to stand up and say, I don't know.

My biggest question would be; how do you believe in "luck" but snub superstitions. 
What we call "luck" in everyday speech is just statistical probability.  I believe in statistical probability because it has been shown to be true.  Probability is mathematically true.  You can't change 1+1 anymore than you can change the probability of heads or tails.

You can weight the coin and thus change the probability however!  Actions have consequences.

As a very complicated aside, random chance has been shown to be a fundamental part of the universe.  The theory of Quantum Mechanics is the most accurate theory science has yet found.  An inherent part of the theory is statistical probability.

Quantum Mechanics has been experimentally proven to be accurate to within 1 part in 100 billion.  That's 1 in 100,000,000,000.  The equivalent of measuring the width of North America down to the size of a human hair.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on July 26, 2013, 12:53:50 PM
A Creator gives meaning and purpose to this hard life we live.

We are the meaning and purpose to this hard life we live.
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A reason for existing.

There is no reason.  We just do.
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Luck doesn't do that.  Luck doesn't console the mind that doesn't want to die or the loved ones left behind. 

Empathy is what does that.  And love.
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Did luck even exist before mankind.

Before mankind was just animals and before animals just plants and before plants just rocks...
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Where did luck come from? 

Luck came from a man's imagination when he wanted an explanation for why things happened the way they did.
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It seems more likely to me that there was and is a Creator with a reason for Creating life.

I thought that, too for a long time, but I couldn't fill the holes in my own explanations.  I couldn't let him off the hook for what is going on my my life.  He is either an asshole or he doesn't exist.
Quote

My biggest question would be; how do you believe in "luck" but snub superstitions.  Luck is a type of superstition.  Who had the rabbit's foot when The Big Bang took place?

Another invention of man to explain the inexplicable.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: nogodsforme on July 26, 2013, 01:22:27 PM
I don't understand how the existence of a creator "gives meaning and purpose" to our lives. That's like saying because I had a mother, my life has meaning and purpose. What is that meaning? What is the purpose? I still have to figure all that out for myself.

Everyone in the world has to figure it out for themselves, whether they think there is a creator or not. That's why we don't see various god-believers living any different from the people around them who don't believe. What further information does adding a creator to the mix give us? None.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: junebug72 on July 26, 2013, 01:54:26 PM
Wow!

Y'all responded to that in droves. 

I actually thought about random chance after I posted this topic.  It sounded better in my head than it did out here that's fer sure.

My main question has been answered, why believe in luck but not superstition?  Now I understand.  You don't believe in luck either.

Thanks.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: junebug72 on July 26, 2013, 02:48:22 PM
It was George R. Price  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_R._Price
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: Dante on July 26, 2013, 02:54:41 PM
My main question has been answered, why believe in luck but not superstition?  Now I understand.  You don't believe in luck either.

Do you? If so, to what do you attribute it? What causes luck, either good or bad?
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: junebug72 on July 26, 2013, 03:45:53 PM
My main question has been answered, why believe in luck but not superstition?  Now I understand.  You don't believe in luck either.

Do you? If so, to what do you attribute it? What causes luck, either good or bad?

I've never been one to believe that much in luck until I got cancer and I felt lucky to have caught it in time.  I have always felt like luck was for the weak.  I make my own luck.  I now feel differently.  I feel very lucky right now. 

Direct answer= I don't know... but i wish I did.  I'd make sure we all had good luck.

You might be on to something here Dante.  If we could figure out how to change our luck to always be good then bad things would quit happening.  ;) Isn't that where all the superstition comes from though.  I am not superstitious.  I've played the games but it always felt silly.

Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: Dante on July 26, 2013, 03:53:49 PM
My main question has been answered, why believe in luck but not superstition?  Now I understand.  You don't believe in luck either.

Do you? If so, to what do you attribute it? What causes luck, either good or bad?

I've never been one to believe that much in luck until I got cancer and I felt lucky to have caught it in time.  I have always felt like luck was for the weak.  I make my own luck.  I now feel differently.  I feel very lucky right now.

Which is not quite what I was getting at, but we'll shelve that for now.

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  I am not superstitious.  I've played the games but it always felt silly.

This is the luck I was talking about, the superstitious kind. And it is silly, so we're in agreement.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: median on July 26, 2013, 04:21:44 PM


It seems more likely to me that there was and is a Creator with a reason for Creating life.


Why?
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: Schizoid on July 26, 2013, 04:44:42 PM
The assertion is:  "God is More Likely than Luck".  Prove it, you know, with proof, not just fuzzy feelings and a purpose driven life.  It is really up to the one making the claim to prove their assertion and not up to everyone else to disprove it.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: junebug72 on July 26, 2013, 04:48:32 PM


It seems more likely to me that there was and is a Creator with a reason for Creating life.


Why?

Good question.  I will have to get back to it in the morning.  I am surprised after all the threads we have both participated in together you don't already know that.  I am a hopeless romantic.  I am hard wired to believe in something.  I honestly believe I can not help it.  I feel it in my guts if you know what I mean.  When I reason this is where I end up.  Belief in something more powerful than humans.  That loves us and wants what is best but will not control us.  I'll will dig down deeper for you first thing in the morning.

Goodnight,

Junebug
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: jaimehlers on July 26, 2013, 05:07:58 PM
The assertion is:  "God is More Likely than Luck".  Prove it, you know, with proof, not just fuzzy feelings and a purpose driven life.  It is really up to the one making the claim to prove their assertion and not up to everyone else to disprove it.
I think her assertion would be better described as "God is more likely than Lady Luck".

As it is, since atheists don't believe in a personification of luck who hands out good or bad luck any more than they believe in other gods, I think that particular part of it is moot.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: median on July 26, 2013, 05:08:34 PM

Good question.  I will have to get back to it in the morning.  I am surprised after all the threads we have both participated in together you don't already know that.  I am a hopeless romantic.  I am hard wired to believe in something.  I honestly believe I can not help it.  I feel it in my guts if you know what I mean. 

Have you ever noticed that "feeling it in your guts" in not a reliable source of separating fact from fiction? Has your "gut feeling" ever been wrong? I know mine has (as well as countless others). People's feelings/emotions are very often badly mistaken and need to been put in check by reason in order to avoid terrible error.

Why would you trust your "gut" instead of actually withholding judgment and doing some homework?

When I reason this is where I end up.  Belief in something more powerful than humans.  That loves us and wants what is best but will not control us. 


The mere fact of believing your gut doesn't make your belief true. But more importantly, what reasoning (exactly) have you done? Can you please present those arguments?
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: 12 Monkeys on July 26, 2013, 05:51:26 PM
If you live in the western world....how hard can your life be.......in the eastern areas where women are oppressed,you may have something to talk about
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: ParkingPlaces on July 26, 2013, 06:08:23 PM
Junebug

I sometimes have "feelings" that I am doing something wrong as I try to fix a broken machine or do some other chore. But I have found over time that it is not a gut feeling, but a brain feeling. Where some part of my head is able to instill a nagging doubt in my head when brain cells which I apparently don't have direct contact with (keeping in mind that I'm old) are trying to tell me that it is the fuel line, not the carburetor. And in hindsight, I find those feeling are right about half the time.

What are the odds? Huh?

I've had several occasions in my life when the woman I was with at the time said accusingly "You're cheating on me. I just know it!." But I wasn't. Nobody's tummy is good at filling in the blanks. I suggest you find other ways to learn and/or make decisions. Everyone around you will be happier if you do.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: nogodsforme on July 26, 2013, 09:32:16 PM
If you are in a country with the kind of medical care where screening and treatment can catch cancer in time, you were already "lucky", long before the cancer. Because not everyone is in that situation. In Central Africa, if you get cancer (assuming you live long enough to) you will die while suffering excruciating pain. Hardly anyone there has any good luck. Wonder why that is? 

So the lucky part is more about where you were born, not that you caught the cancer in time. Same thing with being an amputee, or being a premature baby, or having just about any medical or health problem. Just make sure you aren't born in a really poor, dysfunctional or war-ravaged country. If your country has universal health care, you will have absolutely amazing luck and won't lose your home to pay medical bills. :P

A loving creator god does not seem to care very much about the health of people in rural India or in the slums of Brazil. They can just curl up and go to hell for all he gives a f!ck.[1] But boy, is the loving creator god good at taking care of the atheists in Scandinavia and Japan! Creator god must just really love those unbelievers. &)

God is everywhere, so he must hate some people. Or maybe there is no god and no such thing as luck, either? Doesn't it seem interesting that people are so much luckier if they are born in a country where science-based public health, advanced medical care and trained medical personnel are widely available?  :?
 1. Those folks have to hope that a group like Doctors Without Borders--you know, an organization of human beings-- is around to help.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: Traveler on July 26, 2013, 10:46:31 PM
If you live in the western world....how hard can your life be.......in the eastern areas where women are oppressed,you may have something to talk about

This isn't fair. There's tons of difficulty in the western world. Tell the woman who's been raped that she's got nothing to complain about, or who's lost her family, or who has a painful and/or terminal illness, or who can't afford to feed her children.

Tragedy exists everywhere. Just because someone else has a worse tragedy doesn't mean you can trivialize a westerners.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: xyzzy on July 27, 2013, 12:32:36 AM
JB - when you talk of luck in the way you do, it leaves me with the impression that you consider that there is some external sentient force that influences events in your personal favour.

However, I think the point that nogodsforme was driving at is that you were not so much lucky, as it was advantageous that you had access to world-class health care.

Were there an actual interventionist "god", then we would expect to see a model that reflects something other than what we encounter in practice.

The reality is that this recent turn of events including incidence, detection, treatment, and prognosis fit a statistical model which varies largely according to geography. In your case you had the advantage to live in an area where same-day (ambulatory) surgery is effectively the standard of care. Had you been living in a third-world country, you might not have been so "lucky". Obviously, I am pleased for you that the outcome was, indeed, in your favour.

If the above isn't what you were driving at. Perhaps you could give examples of making your own luck whereby events have clearly been manipulated to your advantage in a way that could only happen through an external agency.

Edited to clarify a term
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: Anfauglir on July 27, 2013, 03:21:52 AM
To an extent, of course, you can make your own "luck".

Say you want a new job.  If you don't breathe a word of it to anyone, never look at want ads, never go on training courses, there's a small chance that your dream job will plop in your lap.

On the other hand, if you want a job, and you tell everyone about it, scour the industry press, make connections with recruiters, take training courses in the right skills.....then all of a sudden you will "luckily" be in the place where you can get that job.

As has been said, its all about probabilities - and for many, many things, there are things you can do that increase those probabilities.

I suspect that that is where some superstitions come from.  Not walking under ladders, for example, makes you less likely to have paint dripped on you, or a hammer dropped on your head.  "Gosh, I was so unlucky to get paint on my coat, if only I hadn't walked under that ladder". 

Selective memory and confidence plays a part too - if we are wearing a particular pair of boxers when we score (horrible expression!), we might think they are lucky.  So we wear them again, the increased expectation makes us that little bit more confident, which makes us more likely to score again, and so the "magic" boxers gain more power in our minds.  And any time we DON'T score, of course, the boxers "were having an off day".  Rabbits feet and touching wood as well - things make us more secure and confident, hence more relaxed, hence more likely to spot opportunities.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: DumpsterFire on July 27, 2013, 04:37:26 AM
I am hard wired to believe in something.  I honestly believe I can not help it.  I feel it in my guts if you know what I mean.  When I reason this is where I end up.  Belief in something more powerful than humans.  That loves us and wants what is best but will not control us.
If the only harm that ever came to us was as a direct result of a specific choice we made, then your "god that loves us and wants what is best but will not control us" would make sense. In a world fraught with deadly earthquakes, tsunamis, tornadoes, droughts, etc., your conclusion is baseless.

When I reason, this is where I end up.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: junebug72 on July 27, 2013, 07:16:20 AM


It seems more likely to me that there was and is a Creator with a reason for Creating life.


Why?

Here's the reply I promised. It is from another thread but I believe this pretty much sums me up.


My belief in a Creator is not limited to explaining where Love comes from.  Matter of fact that has very little to do with why I believe in God.  First of all I find it hard to comprehend the amount of luck it would take for our planet to end up with so many forms of complex life from an explosion.  Explosions are messy business.  There is also the lack of other planets like ours.  If it was that easy there should be planets like ours all over.

2nd if humans came from water not dirt then we should be natural swimmers.  Most of us have to "learn" to swim and our bodies have more elements of dirt than water, could be wrong here, I'm sure you'll let me know. :).  There is also the fact that not all creatures evolved into the same thing.  Why remain a fly when you could've evolved into a human or lion, etc.  We have flies because we need flies.  We need all our different life forms.  We all have a "purpose".

Then there is my spirit.  I feel my spirit and it feels eternal unlike this flesh I wear.  It's the "real" me. 

These are my main points of belief in a Creator.  I very well believe that there was an Intelligence involved in our making.  No magic necessary, intelligence yes.  Love yes.  I believe Love and hate comes from us.  We are capable of both because we have freewill.  We are not forced to love it is a choice.

I am quite aware that some babies can swim but mine could not.  He is still not a good swimmer.  My mom could not swim.  I know several people that can not swim.  I can but I'm not that great either.  I have to hold my nose which leaves me swimming 1 handed.

Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: junebug72 on July 27, 2013, 07:46:07 AM
JB - when you talk of luck in the way you do, it leaves me with the impression that you consider that there is some external sentient force that influences events in your personal favour.

However, I think the point that nogodsforme was driving at is that you were not so much lucky, as it was advantageous that you had access to world-class health care.

Were there an actual interventionist "god", then we would expect to see a model that reflects something other than what we encounter in practice.

The reality is that this recent turn of events including incidence, detection, treatment, and prognosis fit a statistical model which varies largely according to geography. In your case you had the advantage to live in an area where same-day (ambulatory) surgery is effectively the standard of care. Had you been living in a third-world country, you might not have been so "lucky". Obviously, I am pleased for you that the outcome was, indeed, in your favour.

If the above isn't what you were driving at. Perhaps you could give examples of making your own luck whereby events have clearly been manipulated to your advantage in a way that could only happen through an external agency.

Edited to clarify a term

Regardless of all that it was still chance/luck that I found it when I did.  I was not on a self exam schedule.  My tumor was on the border line of being stage 2.  It was 1.9 cm. Stage 2 starts at 2.0.  That is lucky.  I am lucky to still have my breast.

I am not sure what I have said that made you think what you said in that first paragraph.  That is not something I believe.  Mostly I believe you make your own luck but every now and again random chance comes your way.  For example, I play online poker.  Out of 50 hands I might win 2-3.  Is that luck, I don't think so.  It is a statistical probability.

This is going to be a difficult thread for me because I'm getting the impression some of you believe in luck and some of you don't.  So I think before we continue we should all agree how we define and use the word "luck". For me it is "random chance".   Not something doled out by the Creator.

I believe the descriptive to apply to my definition.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luck
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: Dante on July 27, 2013, 07:49:12 AM

My belief in a Creator is not limited to explaining where Love comes from.  Matter of fact that has very little to do with why I believe in God.  First of all I find it hard to comprehend the amount of luck it would take for our planet to end up with so many forms of complex life from an explosion.  Explosions are messy business.  There is also the lack of other planets like ours.  If it was that easy there should be planets like ours all over.

Like, maybe, only 60 billion in our galaxy alone?[1] And there are hundreds of billions of galaxies in out universe.[2] Still feeling special, JB?

Quote
2nd if humans came from water not dirt then we should be natural swimmers.  Most of us have to "learn" to swim and our bodies have more elements of dirt than water, could be wrong here, I'm sure you'll let me know. :).  There is also the fact that not all creatures evolved into the same thing.  Why remain a fly when you could've evolved into a human or lion, etc.  We have flies because we need flies.  We need all our different life forms.  We all have a "purpose".

See William's respponse to this in your other thread. This all goes back to your "feelings". It's your perception, but it isn't the truth. 


Quote
Then there is my spirit.  I feel my spirit and it feels eternal unlike this flesh I wear.  It's the "real" me. 

There's those feelings again, of which the truth gives not a shit.

Quote
These are my main points of belief in a Creator.  I very well believe that there was an Intelligence involved in our making.  No magic necessary, intelligence yes.  Love yes.  I believe Love and hate comes from us.  We are capable of both because we have freewill.  We are not forced to love it is a choice.

So, if there was no magic necessary, your creator used what? Science? Love? A big bowl of strawberry Jello?

 1. http://blogs.voanews.com/science-world/2013/07/02/60-billion-earth-like-planets-could-exist-in-milky-way-galaxy/
 2. http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/021127a.html
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: junebug72 on July 27, 2013, 08:06:28 AM
I am hard wired to believe in something.  I honestly believe I can not help it.  I feel it in my guts if you know what I mean.  When I reason this is where I end up.  Belief in something more powerful than humans.  That loves us and wants what is best but will not control us.
If the only harm that ever came to us was as a direct result of a specific choice we made, then your "god that loves us and wants what is best but will not control us" would make sense. In a world fraught with deadly earthquakes, tsunamis, tornadoes, droughts, etc., your conclusion is baseless.

When I reason, this is where I end up.

These natural events shape and nourish the planet.  We can build homes that are more capable of withstanding natural disasters but we'd have to give up on extreme greed so we can all have this.  See that's another reason I will not completely abandon Creation.  The evolutionary theory implies that we are naturally wired to preserve our own species but yet there are many many folks out there who only care about themselves.  They will not do what's best for their species.  If that were the case we would not even have hate, murder, rape or poverty.

Dante,

Your post makes no sense at all.  First of all yes I feel special because my human specialist say I should.  We are all special.  There is no proof of a planet like ours any where else.  Your statement proves my point.  Yes there are other planets but there is no proof of life on them.  My first two paragraphs are a result of reasoning not feelings.  When I say I feel my spirit I mean I literally feel my spirit.  It is not an emotion.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: bertatberts on July 27, 2013, 08:36:52 AM
Quote from: Junebug72
There is no proof of a planet like ours any where else.
Maybe so at the moment, however the probability that one does is enormous, given the diversity of life on this planet, and the fact that the light/signals we receive from far off galaxies are so old.
 
Maybe in the future we will be sure. However until then we cant throw the baby out with the bathwater.
The fact we exist, proves life is possible elsewhere.

Whereas with a god we can have no comparison, thus both baby and water can be discarded. So evoking a god to explain your imbecilic notions is nonsensical.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: ParkingPlaces on July 27, 2013, 09:01:21 AM

These natural events shape and nourish the planet.  We can build homes that are more capable of withstanding natural disasters but we'd have to give up on extreme greed so we can all have this.  See that's another reason I will not completely abandon Creation. The evolutionary theory implies that we are naturally wired to preserve our own species but yet there are many many folks out there who only care about themselves.  They will not do what's best for their species.  If that were the case we would not even have hate, murder, rape or poverty.

Dante,

Your post makes no sense at all. First of all yes I feel special because my human specialist say I should.  We are all special.  There is no proof of a planet like ours any where else.  Your statement proves my point.  Yes there are other planets but there is no proof of life on them.  My first two paragraphs are a result of reasoning not feelings.  When I say I feel my spirit I mean I literally feel my spirit.  It is not an emotion.

My bold.

You probably don't see the irony in this JB, but it is there.

People who kill or otherwise harm other people often to it because they think that they themselves are special. And that others are less special. Or more likely, not special at all.

Such people have nothing to offer the world but their ego. Which is useless.

It is fine to say that we as individuals should value ourselves, and value others. But the word "special" carries way too much baggage and implies an importance that is artificial and harmful.

And nothing in evolutionary theory says that we are wired to preserve our species (we are wired to preserve our kin and our group, but not everyone). If we were big on such things, those of us who feel special wouldn't be so busy offing those who we consider irrelevant in comparison. You can't solve everything by making the entire populace obnoxious.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: junebug72 on July 27, 2013, 09:04:09 AM
Quote from: Junebug72
There is no proof of a planet like ours any where else.
Maybe so at the moment, however the probability that one does is enormous, given the diversity of life on this planet, and the fact that the light/signals we receive from far off galaxies are so old.
 
Maybe in the future we will be sure. However until then we cant throw the baby out with the bathwater.
The fact we exist, proves life is possible elsewhere.

Whereas with a god we can have no comparison, thus both baby and water can be discarded. So evoking a god to explain your imbecilic notions is nonsensical.

I am not an imbecile.  That was unnecessarily cruel.  Especially as you admit there is no proof yet.  If a believer had posted something like this y'all be like cop out or good dodge. 

I would never discard a baby, that's just sick man.  Where does this strange figure of speech come from and what does it mean?
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: junebug72 on July 27, 2013, 09:13:43 AM

My bold.

You probably don't see the irony in this JB, but it is there.

People who kill or otherwise harm other people often to it because they think that they themselves are special. And that others are less special. Or more likely, not special at all.

Such people have nothing to offer the world but their ego. Which is useless.

It is fine to say that we as individuals should value ourselves, and value others. But the word "special" carries way too much baggage and implies an importance that is artificial and harmful.

And nothing in evolutionary theory says that we are wired to preserve our species (we are wired to preserve our kin and our group, but not everyone). If we were big on such things, those of us who feel special wouldn't be so busy offing those who we consider irrelevant in comparison. You can't solve everything by making the entire populace obnoxious.

Good come back P. Places.  Just a warning though careful with the grammar.  It could change your Karma.  If you want to know what I'm talking about check out the smite I got from Nam.  He smited me for using she instead of he.  It's the ...Disgrace to God thread.

I won't be smiting you for it because I could care less.  I actually realized my mistake when I read screw's reply. 
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: ParkingPlaces on July 27, 2013, 09:30:32 AM
I won't be smiting you for it because I could care less.  I actually realized my mistake when I read screw's reply.

I could use some bad karma. Otherwise I might start thinking I'm special.  :)
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: junebug72 on July 27, 2013, 09:43:35 AM
I won't be smiting you for it because I could care less.  I actually realized my mistake when I read screw's reply.

I could use some bad karma. Otherwise I might start thinking I'm special.  :)

I'm not going to be the one that changes it. ;)
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: bertatberts on July 27, 2013, 09:56:15 AM
I am not an imbecile.
I did not say you were, I said you idea about a god was imbecilic. Huge difference. We have and can all say stupid things or believe stupid things. After all the world is four fifths full of religious people, that all believe differently, would you say that there beliefs are sensible?
If a believer had posted something like this y'all be like cop out or good dodge.
Only if it wasn't even probable, But life on other planets is most definitely probable. Whereas a god existing isn't.

I would never discard a baby, that's just sick man.  Where does this strange figure of speech come from and what does it mean?
A step to far on your part. It is a just figure of speech and as such has no real meaning.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: junebug72 on July 27, 2013, 09:58:20 AM
It was George R. Price  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_R._Price

This would make more sense if I'd posted it in the right place.  I can't find the post attached to this correction.  Guess I'll go check my posts. 

Sorry
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: junebug72 on July 27, 2013, 10:16:09 AM
I am not an imbecile.
I did not say you were, I said you idea about a god was imbecilic. Huge difference.
If a believer had posted something like this y'all be like cop out or good dodge.
Only if it wasn't even probable, But life on other planets is most definitely probable. Whereas a god existing isn't.

I would never discard a baby, that's just sick man.  Where does this strange figure of speech come from and what does it mean?
A step to far on your part. It is a just figure of speech and as such has no real meaning.

Why a step too far I was just asking a question?  I am not familiar with the phrase.  So it was hard to understand your point.

Only an imbecile has imbecilic ideas.  Any way I'm glad you did not mean it as an insult. Thanks :)

Just because something is probable doesn't make it so.  It ain't so until we "know" it's so.  Until we figure out how to travel at the speed of light there ain't gonna be proof.  Be careful what you wish for they may not like earthlings. ;)  Also, it's so far into the future it will not affect us at all.  Scientist I've heard from say it is not possible for an organism to travel at the speed of light. Just saying.  So far our telescopes have revealed no life on any other planet. 
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: bertatberts on July 27, 2013, 10:38:54 AM
Just because something is probable doesn't make it so.
But it is a huge step to say it isn't probable, given we already have a planet with life on it. If there were no life in the universe then we could say the probability of life is zero, which isn't the case is it.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: median on July 27, 2013, 10:53:58 AM

My belief in a Creator is not limited to explaining where Love comes from.  Matter of fact that has very little to do with why I believe in God.  First of all I find it hard to comprehend the amount of luck it would take for our planet to end up with so many forms of complex life from an explosion.  Explosions are messy business.  There is also the lack of other planets like ours.  If it was that easy there should be planets like ours all over.

2nd if humans came from water not dirt then we should be natural swimmers.  Most of us have to "learn" to swim and our bodies have more elements of dirt than water, could be wrong here, I'm sure you'll let me know. :).  There is also the fact that not all creatures evolved into the same thing.  Why remain a fly when you could've evolved into a human or lion, etc.  We have flies because we need flies.  We need all our different life forms.  We all have a "purpose".

Then there is my spirit.  I feel my spirit and it feels eternal unlike this flesh I wear.  It's the "real" me. 

These are my main points of belief in a Creator.  I very well believe that there was an Intelligence involved in our making.  No magic necessary, intelligence yes.  Love yes.  I believe Love and hate comes from us.  We are capable of both because we have freewill.  We are not forced to love it is a choice.

You do realize that this "reasoning" you have attempted to provide is logically fallacious (filled with fallacies), don't you?

1. First you say, "I find it hard to comprehend the amount of luck..." STOP! You've just presented the Argument from Ignorance/Incredulity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance) fallacy. So there's STRIKE ONE. Please don't use that argument again. It fails miserably. Just because you personally find it "hard to comprehend" something doesn't in any way effect whether or not it is true.

2. You say we should be good swimmers because humans came from water, not dirt? Did you really just make this argument? I can hardly believe my ears. This argument speaks loudly and clearly to the fact that you are ignorant as to what evolution teaches, aren't you? Have you taken any evolutionary biology courses (such as Biological Anthropology)?? This argument is just simply 100% wrong. Human beings did not evolve in water. We have a common ancestor with creatures that did but those things are entirely separate. We have an ape-like common ancestor, which we share with chimpanzees, and those animals have common ancestors with other creatures prior to them. You should really go take a basic college course and learn. Btw, this is also another Argument from Ignorance/Incredulity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance) fallacy - STRIKE TWO.

3. Your argument from teleology (purpose) - pointing to flies (really?) - is another argument based in your basic ignorance of science, and specifically evolutionary biology. Do you understand the mechanism of evolution? Heck, do you even have a basic understanding of what evolution teaches, how it works, and what it's evidence is? Your argument that "We all have a purpose" is misleading. Didn't you mean to argue that you think we all have a "purpose" which came from the god you think created us? This is called the Teleological Argument for God and it is logically flawed (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-a-schwartz/intelligent-design-watchmaker_b_1730878.html) as well, but let's set this aside b/c it's a long debate.

4. The argument from "feeling your spirit" (the logical fallacy of Appeal to Emotion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion)) is beyond absurd. "I can feel it in my balls that we have no spirit!" How's that for an argument? Does it convince you? Feelings, emotions, and psychological leanings (like the one you are promoting based in your youth, culture, and influenced upbringing) need to be put in check by reason and evidence b/c feelings are often wrong. This is how con-artist fast talking salesmen get people to buy crummy products so they can take your money and run. Ever hear of Derren Brown (the illusionist)? Look him up on YouTube. People convince themselves of wrong beliefs all the time. What you keep coming back to is a reliance upon subjective, solely personal, emotion/experience for fact finding - and that is a very bad and unreliable method for separating fact from fiction. This is why we have demonstrable science, which trumps your personal feelings (sorry to break the news) - STRIKE THREE! 

So the reasons you have provided for believing in a "creator" deity are logically fallacious (i.e. - invalid aka - BAD reasons). As such, it is in your best interest to stop using these arguments, get honest, and get educated.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: junebug72 on July 27, 2013, 11:16:35 AM

My belief in a Creator is not limited to explaining where Love comes from.  Matter of fact that has very little to do with why I believe in God.  First of all I find it hard to comprehend the amount of luck it would take for our planet to end up with so many forms of complex life from an explosion.  Explosions are messy business.  There is also the lack of other planets like ours.  If it was that easy there should be planets like ours all over.

2nd if humans came from water not dirt then we should be natural swimmers.  Most of us have to "learn" to swim and our bodies have more elements of dirt than water, could be wrong here, I'm sure you'll let me know. :).  There is also the fact that not all creatures evolved into the same thing.  Why remain a fly when you could've evolved into a human or lion, etc.  We have flies because we need flies.  We need all our different life forms.  We all have a "purpose".

Then there is my spirit.  I feel my spirit and it feels eternal unlike this flesh I wear.  It's the "real" me. 

These are my main points of belief in a Creator.  I very well believe that there was an Intelligence involved in our making.  No magic necessary, intelligence yes.  Love yes.  I believe Love and hate comes from us.  We are capable of both because we have freewill.  We are not forced to love it is a choice.

You do realize that this "reasoning" you have attempted to provide is logically fallacious (filled with fallacies), don't you?

1. First you say, "I find it hard to comprehend the amount of luck..." STOP! You've just presented the Argument from Ignorance/Incredulity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance) fallacy. So there's STRIKE ONE. Please don't use that argument again. It fails miserably. Just because you personally find it "hard to comprehend" something doesn't in any way effect whether or not it is true.

2. You say we should be good swimmers because humans came from water, not dirt? Did you really just make this argument? I can hardly believe my ears. This argument speaks loudly and clearly to the fact that you are ignorant as to what evolution teaches, aren't you? Have you taken any evolutionary biology courses (such as Biological Anthropology)?? This argument is just simply 100% wrong. Human beings did not evolve in water. We have a common ancestor with creatures that did but those things are entirely separate. We have an ape-like common ancestor, which we share with chimpanzees, and those animals have common ancestors with other creatures prior to them. You should really go take a basic college course and learn. Btw, this is also another Argument from Ignorance/Incredulity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance) fallacy - STRIKE TWO.

3. Your argument from teleology (purpose) - pointing to flies (really?) - is another argument based in your basic ignorance of science, and specifically evolutionary biology. Do you understand the mechanism of evolution? Heck, do you even have a basic understanding of what evolution teaches, how it works, and what it's evidence is? Your argument that "We all have a purpose" is misleading. Didn't you mean to argue that you think we all have a "purpose" which came from the god you think created us? This is called the Teleological Argument for God and it is logically flawed (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-a-schwartz/intelligent-design-watchmaker_b_1730878.html) as well, but let's set this aside b/c it's a long debate.

4. The argument from "feeling your spirit" (the logical fallacy of Appeal to Emotion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion)) is beyond absurd. "I can feel it in my balls that we have no spirit!" How's that for an argument? Does it convince you? Feelings, emotions, and psychological leanings (like the one you are promoting based in your youth, culture, and influenced upbringing) need to be put in check by reason and evidence b/c feelings are often wrong. This is how con-artist fast talking salesmen get people to buy crummy products so they can take your money and run. Ever hear of Derren Brown (the illusionist)? Look him up on YouTube. People convince themselves of wrong beliefs all the time. What you keep coming back to is a reliance upon subjective, solely personal, emotion/experience for fact finding - and that is a very bad and unreliable method for separating fact from fiction. This is why we have demonstrable science, which trumps your personal feelings (sorry to break the news) - STRIKE THREE! 

So the reasons you have provided for believing in a "creator" deity are logically fallacious (i.e. - invalid aka - BAD reasons). As such, it is in your best interest to stop using these arguments, get honest, and get educated.

You sound very intelligent here Median but there are flaws in your argument as well.  I should be well schooled in evolution by now participating on this forum with all the experts on the subject.  You buy right into it because you don't want there to be a God or a Creator.  I do.  So yes I will question what I know to be so about Evolution.  I don't have the time to take a biology class to learn this stuff nor the desire to do so.  I catch as much as I can on the Science channel and that's as far as I'm willing to go.  I am also very open to anything on the subject you wish to share.

If you want me to believe it I have to comprehend it.

Every version of evolution I have encountered says all life began in the ocean.  Decided to grow legs and eventually headed for land.  Is this true or false?  If true then my question about the process is very legitimate.

Yes I have a basic idea of the theory.  For me to just accept what other people say is exactly what you condemn people for on this sight.  Accepting things w/o asking questions.  I won't do that for religion and I won't do it for science.

When I say I feel my spirit, I mean I literally feel it in there.  It is not an emotion.  I physically feel my spirit. A gentleman doesn't talk about his balls.

So if this were a ballgame you'd be the worse ref ever.


Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: DumpsterFire on July 27, 2013, 11:30:01 AM
These natural events shape and nourish the planet.  We can build homes that are more capable of withstanding natural disasters but we'd have to give up on extreme greed so we can all have this.  See that's another reason I will not completely abandon Creation.
If the only way to "shape and nourish" the planet is via some sort of violent geological upheaval or some other condition potentially harmful to life[1], why won't god at least ensure the safety of those in the affected area before he begins? A benevolent god would not cause such random suffering, one would think. Babies killed by natural disasters = proof that a loving god who wants what is best does not exist, as far as I'm concerned.
 1. how exactly does a drought nourish anything?
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: xyzzy on July 27, 2013, 11:41:48 AM
Every version of evolution I have encountered says all life began in the ocean.  Decided to grow legs and eventually headed for land.  Is this true or false?

False.

You do, though, seem to be thoroughly acquainted with the typical strawman arguments as put forward by creationists who so favor the argument from incredulity as referenced by Median above.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: junebug72 on July 27, 2013, 11:47:29 AM
These natural events shape and nourish the planet.  We can build homes that are more capable of withstanding natural disasters but we'd have to give up on extreme greed so we can all have this.  See that's another reason I will not completely abandon Creation.
If the only way to "shape and nourish" the planet is via some sort of violent geological upheaval or some other condition potentially harmful to life[1], why won't god at least ensure the safety of those in the affected area before he begins? A benevolent god would not cause such random suffering, one would think. Babies killed by natural disasters = proof that a loving god who wants what is best does not exist, as far as I'm concerned.
 1. how exactly does a drought nourish anything?

What is best for us is to learn how to live in these environments.  To make sure we all can afford weather proof homes. 
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: junebug72 on July 27, 2013, 12:06:41 PM
Every version of evolution I have encountered says all life began in the ocean.  Decided to grow legs and eventually headed for land.  Is this true or false?

False.

You do, though, seem to be thoroughly acquainted with the typical strawman arguments as put forward by creationists who so favor the argument from incredulity as referenced by Median above.

X I think you should contact the Science Channel and let them know their programming is false.  I remember the illustrations distinctly of the organisms growing legs and heading for land.  Forgive me if I just don't take your word for that especially since you left no accurate or "true" statement to refer to.
 
I thought skepticism was a good thing. :o  I wish y'all would make up your minds. 

Looks to me like your trying to twist the facts of evolution to strengthen your argument, to me.

At least provide a link or something. ;)

Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: xyzzy on July 27, 2013, 12:18:46 PM

X I think you should contact the Science Channel and let them know their programming is false.  I remember the illustrations distinctly of the organisms growing legs and heading for land.  Forgive me if I just don't take your word for that especially since you left no accurate or "true" statement to refer to.
 
I thought skepticism was a good thing. :o  I wish y'all would make up your minds. 

Looks to me like your trying to twist the facts of evolution to strengthen your argument, to me.

At least provide a link or something. ;)

Come on, JB. Where did the science channel tell you that organisms decided to grow legs? I'm beginning to be troubled by your avoiding direct answers, saying you don't have time to do something, then demanding that we educate you at the same time.

Still, you wanted some links. I am delighted to help.

Please watch these from start to finish, then come back and tell us what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL82yk73N8eoX8RpvQfjdupAKFWKjtMhTe (http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL82yk73N8eoX8RpvQfjdupAKFWKjtMhTe)

Of course, if you don't have the time or interest to do so, then please stop asking people to prove you wrong - a fallacy in itself.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: junebug72 on July 27, 2013, 12:51:58 PM

X I think you should contact the Science Channel and let them know their programming is false.  I remember the illustrations distinctly of the organisms growing legs and heading for land.  Forgive me if I just don't take your word for that especially since you left no accurate or "true" statement to refer to.
 
I thought skepticism was a good thing. :o  I wish y'all would make up your minds. 

Looks to me like your trying to twist the facts of evolution to strengthen your argument, to me.

At least provide a link or something. ;)

Come on, JB. Where did the science channel tell you that organisms decided to grow legs? I'm beginning to be troubled by your avoiding direct answers, saying you don't have time to do something, then demanding that we educate you at the same time.

Still, you wanted some links. I am delighted to help.

Please watch these from start to finish, then come back and tell us what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL82yk73N8eoX8RpvQfjdupAKFWKjtMhTe (http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL82yk73N8eoX8RpvQfjdupAKFWKjtMhTe)

Of course, if you don't have the time or interest to do so, then please stop asking people to prove you wrong - a fallacy in itself.

My bad. I should have said evolved legs and headed for land. 

Sorry I have to be preservative with my data. I should have mentioned that when I asked; my apologies. I get 4 gigs a month and I use it.  Perhaps something I can read?


If being a believer is so detrimental to society then I would think you would jump at the opportunity to educate a believer.  I have shared generously with you.  Through all the snide remarks and insults I'm still sharing. I've answered hundreds if not thousands of questions and I can't ask a question w/o ridicule. I've seen y'all put a very negative spin on believers not willing to learn or listen; then this.


So are you saying that life did not begin in the oceans? 

I just want to add there is a difference between a full time commitment to attend school and watch a video.  Of course I'm willing to spend that amount of time to learn.  Your last comment=unnecessary.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: 12 Monkeys on July 27, 2013, 01:16:11 PM
If you live in the western world....how hard can your life be.......in the eastern areas where women are oppressed,you may have something to talk about

This isn't fair. There's tons of difficulty in the western world. Tell the woman who's been raped that she's got nothing to complain about, or who's lost her family, or who has a painful and/or terminal illness, or who can't afford to feed her children.

Tragedy exists everywhere. Just because someone else has a worse tragedy doesn't mean you can trivialize a westerners.
Understood But ever not been able to drive a car,go out in public unescorted,have your clitoris removed.....was talking about how they are treated as third class citizens more than anything
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: JeffPT on July 27, 2013, 07:28:38 PM
You sound very intelligent here Median but there are flaws in your argument as well.  I should be well schooled in evolution by now participating on this forum with all the experts on the subject.  You buy right into it because you don't want there to be a God or a Creator. 

No.  Not even remotely.  We don't buy into the theory because we have a problem with the notion of a creator.  We buy into the theory because it's rock solid.  You just don't understand it well enough yet.  Our desire or lack of desire for a creator has nothing to do with it.  Even if a creator was proven true tomorrow, it wouldn't change how valid the theory of evolution actually is.  Evolution would simply be the mechanism by which the creator moved life forward. 

I am also very open to anything on the subject you wish to share.

I will keep this as simple as possible. 

Imagine there was a farmer and he had 5000 cows on his land.  He wants to breed the biggest cows for their meat.  How would he go about doing that?  It's very simple.  What he would do is get his biggest cows and biggest bulls together and mate them.  Mating big cows gives big baby cows.  In other words, the size of the cow gave it a breeding advantage over the other cows on the farm.  A smaller cow might not be mated and therefore it wouldn't pass it's small cow genes to the next in line.  Over several generations, all the farm would have would be really big cows, right?  In effect, the cows have evolved.  The process by which they did it is called 'artificial selection'.  The farmer selected the traits he wanted.   

The way it happens in nature is that sheer survival is the selection method.  A slightly faster gazelle has a survival advantage over slower gazelles and the slower gazelles die off before they breed.  Before too long, you've got a herd of faster and faster gazelles.  But at the same time, you've got lions who are also getting faster.  A faster lion can catch the faster gazelles.  See how it works? 

Over millions of generations, with small changes each time, you get large differences and different species. 

I hope that starts you on your way. 
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: DumpsterFire on July 27, 2013, 08:14:46 PM
If the only way to "shape and nourish" the planet is via some sort of violent geological upheaval or some other condition potentially harmful to life[1], why won't god at least ensure the safety of those in the affected area before he begins? A benevolent god would not cause such random suffering, one would think. Babies killed by natural disasters = proof that a loving god who wants what is best does not exist, as far as I'm concerned.
 1. how exactly does a drought nourish anything?

What is best for us is to learn how to live in these environments.  To make sure we all can afford weather proof homes.

Are you saying god lovingly causes natural disasters in order to force us to come up with ways to protect ourselves from them because it is in our best interest to protect ourselves from natural disasters? This is circular reasoning at its most insipid, JB. God causes disasters to teach us how to live with disasters? You could use this rationale to explain away the existence of virtually anything harmful.

You do realize that if there were no disasters in the first place we wouldn't have to "learn to live" with them at all, don't you? Imagine the countless lives and dollars in property damage that would be saved. Which of these scenarios do you think would be more likely under the auspices of a truly benevolent creator?
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: nogodsforme on July 27, 2013, 08:28:11 PM
I love this topic, junebug. Thanks for giving us another chance to talk about it! You don't have to understand evolution to benefit from it every day.  If you have ever had a flu shot or a blood transfusion or were tested for allergies, or have eaten corn, or had a vaccination, you have benefited from the theory of evolution. Police solve crimes using DNA--that is based on the theory of evolution.

The basics of evolution are not that hard. All life came from a common ancestor, and the closer species are to each other, the more characteristics they share.  You see it all around you-- most kids look kind of like their parents, closely related species can have offspring (lions and tigers are both a type of cat, and can have offspring--ligers!) while species that are very far apart cannot (dogs and cats, or birds and snakes, can never have offspring).

Humans, gorillas and chimps are all primates who share a common lemur-like ancestor.  The three are too distantly related to have offspring, but are close enough to have similar characteristics in appearance and social organization-- and even to share diseases.

All of that supports the theory of evolution. If distantly related species like cats and lizards could have offspring, that would mean the theory was false. If kids routinely looked nothing like their parents, that would mean the theory was false. Imagine how strange it would be if two dachshunds mated and produced a litter of poodles, black labs and collies. There would be no way to breed animals with any kind of certainty.

It is a mistake to think that an individual animal or plant or insect "decides" to evolve. It is not about individual choice. Otherwise humans would have "decided" to evolve wings so we could fly. It is about what makes it possible for an organism to survive long enough to reproduce and pass on its characteristics to its offspring.

And it is not always about being the meanest, fastest, biggest or smartest. Plants evolve to resist pesticides, repel insects, survive drought or cold. Some animals are not fast or strong, but they taste bad, or look like they might taste bad. Turtles are not fast, but they have evolved hard shells to protect themselves. Lots of weak animals are small so they can burrow and hide from predators. One bee can't survive very well alone, but in groups they do very well. Humans have no protective claws or fur, but have big brains to invent tools and make clothes. Whales are mammals evolved from land animals and now can live in water. We know this because, unlike fish, whales still have foot bones, give birth to live young and nurse them with milk.

The discovery of genes reinforced the theory of evolution by showing exactly how similarities pass from parent to offspring. Genetics is about as much proof as science needs that evolution is true. Anytime a person says that "x runs in my family", or looks for a certain breed of dog that is good with children, they are accepting that genetics is real, and they are also accepting the theory of evolution.

These are scientific facts and have nothing to do with "denying a creator". No creator has been detected by science--yet. If there is one, it is very good at hiding from people, even those desperately looking, for thousands of years.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: median on July 28, 2013, 12:32:57 AM
You sound very intelligent here Median but there are flaws in your argument as well.  I should be well schooled in evolution by now participating on this forum with all the experts on the subject.  You buy right into it because you don't want there to be a God or a Creator.  I do. 

"Buy right into it" eh? Kinda like "buying right into" the theory of gravity or "buying right into" the germ theory of decease? Whether or not you WANT there to be some "creator god mind thing" behind the universe has absolutely no bearing on whether or not it's true, and what you've just demonstrated is called WISHFUL THINKING. "I want there to be Santa Claus. So I'll ignore all counter evidence and make irrational arguments and rationalizations to fit my assumption."

It's child's play and should be rejected.

So yes I will question what I know to be so about Evolution. 

This is another logical fallacy (called a contradiction). If you "know to be so" the fact (yes I did say FACT) of evolution then you wouldn't need to question it (just like you don't need to question the germ theory of decease or gravity). What you are questioning is FACT vs your FEELING (as you indicated in your prior post). I'm sorry but saying, "I FEEL there's a God" isn't a valid argument that there is one. Feelings are often extremely mistaken and should be held in check by reason and evidence.


I don't have the time to take a biology class to learn this stuff nor the desire to do so.  I catch as much as I can on the Science channel and that's as far as I'm willing to go.  I am also very open to anything on the subject you wish to share.

If you want me to believe it I have to comprehend it.

First, there is no "belief" necessary in science. You either accept the evidence and it's implications or you do not. Unlike religion and/or God faith, science does not tell us (or even attempt to tell us) anything about truth. It provides us the best evidence possible and holds it's positions TENTATIVELY (instead of dogmatically and FIXED like sky fairy/god belief does). Luckily, the evidence for common descent (that man shares a common ancestor with chimpanzees) is overwhelming). 

Second, if you want to understand what evolution teaches start here:

TALK ORIGINS (http://www.talkorigins.org)
JUST A THEORY? (http://www.notjustatheory.com/)

Thirdly, I appreciate your admitted ignorance of evolutionary biology but sadly this isn't a good reason for doubting what you simply don't know. From what it sounds like you've heard from wrong things from the wrong people. Your doubt of the subject sounds like someone who knows nothing about car engines doubting that pistons actually fire after a gasoline ignited explosion. In short, you really need to do your homework before you decide what you don't think is true b/c ignorance isn't an excuse.

Every version of evolution I have encountered says all life began in the ocean.  Decided to grow legs and eventually headed for land.  Is this true or false?  If true then my question about the process is very legitimate.


What you've just described is NOT the subject of evolution. Evolution deals with questions regarding the diversity of life AFTER it began. Abiogenesis, on the other hand, deals with the question of life's origins (i.e. - life deriving from non-living material). But even if all of the evidence we have failed the honest answer would still be "I DON'T KNOW" not "God did it" because that is a non-answer. Attempting to describe a mystery by another bigger mystery fails. It is a logical fallacy (as noted before - the Argument from Incredulity fallacy).


Yes I have a basic idea of the theory.  For me to just accept what other people say is exactly what you condemn people for on this sight.  Accepting things w/o asking questions.  I won't do that for religion and I won't do it for science.

Did I ever advocate that here? No, I didn't. I'm advocating that you become educated on the science. Why? Because science is DEMONSTRABLE. A "God" creator being thing (that we have no idea about and is invisible) is NOT demonstrable. So, at the very least you should be withholding judgment on the subject, admitting you don't know, and actually doing some research instead of just accepting what makes you feel comfortable.

When I say I feel my spirit, I mean I literally feel it in there.  It is not an emotion.  I physically feel my spirit. A gentleman doesn't talk about his balls.

So if this were a ballgame you'd be the worse ref ever.

It may come as a shock to you that I simply do not care about other people's opinions regarding what is "gentleman like" and what is not, but I don't. On this forum (and elsewhere) and care about truth and what came be demonstrated to be true (namely b/c I actually care whether or not my beliefs are true and I hold things tentatively instead of fixed, like god belief).

Now, if an invisible "spirit thing" (whatever that means) exists, but this thing actually 'acts' upon your physical body, then it's detectable by science. But when the rationalization/SPIN begins (in an attempt to save the assumption) saying, "We can't detect it because..." that is where science ends and CREDULITY begins. Again, mere feelings, self-diagnosis of those feelings, and self-imposed interpretations are not sufficient to establish that such a thing as "spirit" exists (any more than placebos demonstrate healing cancer).

Finally, the idea that a "non-physical spirit" (whatever that means) acts upon a physical 'body', of some kind, is a contradiction. You need something physical to act upon something else that is physical and all evidence points to that fact. So again, reason trumps superstition, assumption, and credulity.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: median on July 28, 2013, 12:44:46 AM
Every version of evolution I have encountered says all life began in the ocean.  Decided to grow legs and eventually headed for land.  Is this true or false?

False.

You do, though, seem to be thoroughly acquainted with the typical strawman arguments as put forward by creationists who so favor the argument from incredulity as referenced by Median above.

X I think you should contact the Science Channel and let them know their programming is false.  I remember the illustrations distinctly of the organisms growing legs and heading for land.  Forgive me if I just don't take your word for that especially since you left no accurate or "true" statement to refer to.
 
I thought skepticism was a good thing. :o  I wish y'all would make up your minds. 

Looks to me like your trying to twist the facts of evolution to strengthen your argument, to me.

At least provide a link or something. ;)

This all coming from somebody who hasn't studied the subject. WOW.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: ParkingPlaces on July 28, 2013, 01:43:20 AM
I should be well schooled in evolution by now participating on this forum with all the experts on the subject.  You buy right into it because you don't want there to be a God or a Creator.  I do.  So yes I will question what I know to be so about Evolution.  I don't have the time to take a biology class to learn this stuff nor the desire to do so.  I catch as much as I can on the Science channel and that's as far as I'm willing to go.  I am also very open to anything on the subject you wish to share.

While you were responding to median in the above quote, since he and I see eye to eye in most things, I feel qualified to respond too. The part I'm zeroing in on is bolded.

Whether I don't want or you do want a god is irrelevant. If there is a god, I could spend my whole life wishing otherwise and he wouldn't go away. If there isn't a god, you can spend your whole life wanting for there to be one, but he won't appear. While I can only assume that median and the other atheists here would be with me on this, I know I am an atheist because I have seen no evidence of a god, not because I don't want there to be one. So if you are thinking that you are arguing with atheists because we just don't want god to be real, then you are arguing with what you imagine us to be, rather than what we actually are. That can't end well. And it accomplishes nothing.

Quote
Every version of evolution I have encountered says all life began in the ocean.  Decided to grow legs and eventually headed for land.  Is this true or false?  If true then my question about the process is very legitimate.


And if this is your understanding of evolution, then you are doing the same thing. Assuming you understand/know what something is and arguing based on that assumption. Evolution does not have any decision making process. And while it is  quite possible, even probably, that life began in the ocean, we don't know that for sure and may never know it. We do know, even without the details, that our story is a big improvement over Eden and other creation stories, which haven't a single fact attached. And we also know that we are going to continue to learn about life and its origins as we study the subject and learn more about all those little tiny bits and pieces that make for living cells. Which is more fun to learn about if you can get the cruft out of your head. The stuff that is so wrong it is doing you no good whatsoever. Like thinking that things decided to grow legs and head for land.

So false, and your question was not legitimate.

Charlottes Web is more accurate about arachnology than you are about evolution. (And by the way, the Science Channel is more interested in selling advertising space than it is in giving you accurate information. You would do well to learn the difference between being entertained and being educated.)
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: Ron Jeremy on July 28, 2013, 07:31:59 AM

I know I am an atheist because I have seen no evidence of a god, not because I don't want there to be one


Ditto. In my experience, what believers can never seem to understand, is that we are not God deniers. We simply have no evidence for God, therefore to us He doesn't exist. Live for ever? See all my friends in the afterlife? Travel the universe, find out all its secrets? Who wouldn't want that?? I want it! But imagining a god won't make it happen.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: wheels5894 on July 28, 2013, 08:15:57 AM
All true, folks, but the thing I want to point out to June is that she keeps coming up with a false dichotomy.

June, there is a not a straight choice between a creator or evolution. It is not that one is right and the other wrong so that proving evolution to be false would only leave us not know - it would not prove there was a creator. The thing is that there are plenty of things for which we have the answer 'we don't know' though some of these are solved each year. The 'we don't know' answer if perfectly acceptable as an answer if it is true. One cannot take a random idea and say that it is an answer and god comes into that category.

Don't forget that thousands of years ago a god / gods were though to be responsible for everything from thunderstorms to illness yet, over the years, we have worked out the causes of vast numbers of things, leaving gods struggling for a purpose in life. Creation is only the most popular topics that theists try to use to keep a purpose in their gods. Yet, oddly, evolution could be the explanation of how a god created the vast array of plants and animals in the world today. All it needs is some evidence to link a god to the process yet all the gods we hear about are so reticent to be found out that they hide away and never show themselves.

So, June, just remember that negating something is science does not, of itself, make your claims any better. You still need positive evidence of a god. Oh, and do read the links further up the page - you can't really argue about evolution without knowing anything about it.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: Dante on July 28, 2013, 10:03:05 AM
June, where did you get the notion that evolution is false?

Is it one of your feelings again?

Because you're sounding a whole lot like a typical xian.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on July 28, 2013, 10:30:23 AM
June, where did you get the notion that evolution is false?

Is it one of your feelings again?


I was always trying to reconcile a creator with evolution.  I my mind I pictured the creator somehow putting evolution into motion.  This also worked with the Big Bang.  There was a program on the Discovery channel showing the beginning of the universe, it was easy to picture an invisible hand flicking the comets at the earth, stirring up the tidal waves, etc... Not that I seriously thought this was happening, but it was fun to imagine.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: Anfauglir on July 29, 2013, 02:22:33 AM

I know I am an atheist because I have seen no evidence of a god, not because I don't want there to be one


Ditto. In my experience, what believers can never seem to understand, is that we are not God deniers. We simply have no evidence for God, therefore to us He doesn't exist. Live for ever? See all my friends in the afterlife? Travel the universe, find out all its secrets? Who wouldn't want that?? I want it! But imagining a god won't make it happen.

Absolutely.  A Proper God?  One that is truly and demonstrably all powerful and all benevolent?  That would be fantastic, I'd be first in the queue. 

And while I'm wishing, I'll have a Unicorn as well, and a wallet that never runs out of money.  Sadly, there's not a scrap of evidence for any of those things - hence I don't believe in them.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: jynnan tonnix on July 29, 2013, 07:14:35 AM


Why a step too far I was just asking a question?  I am not familiar with the phrase.  So it was hard to understand your point.



June, the phrase in question is "throwing the baby out with the bath water". Meaning that sometimes a person might be so bent on throwing out the entirety of an idea or whatever that he won't stop to investigate it more fully, and thus discard a really useful nugget in the process.

Hope that was helpful.

Now I'm off to finish reading the rest of the thread. I just scanned it to see whether anyone had cleared that up for you and didn't notice anything offhand.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: junebug72 on July 29, 2013, 07:43:40 AM
Hold on there Nelly.  I am not trying to falsify evolution.  I just had a question dang.  I have said many times before here that I believe that it's part of God's plan.   

I define God as the beginning of life.  I don't see God as a person, place or thing.  I see God as Power/Pure Energy.  It took/takes a lot of Power to create/sustain this planet and the life on it.  This planet could get vaporized by a number of things in space but yet 4.5 billion years later it still orbits the sun, which I am told by science will blow up in 5 billion years.  That is because the equation does not include God.  Add God to the equation and our sun may never blow up. That to me is the kind of "luck" I feel is too much.  If that kind of "luck" existed I could go to Vegas and never ever lose a game of poker.  To me this demonstrates a loving protector/creator. 

As far as natural disasters I said many times here I believe they exist to shape and nourish the planet.  I believe we were given the intelligence to build homes that are not too close and that are water/wind proof as well.  I believe in a Loving Creator, not a mentally ill one.

Spirit?  My spirit does not "feel" like emotions.  It feels like life; w/o it I would not be alive.  It starts in the center and works it's way out.  It is my link to God.  You can try it for your self if you want.  I would not dismiss it until you do or else people might think you're closed-minded.  You can find a tranquil place close your eyes, about an hour at least 30 min, try to "feel" your spirit too.  Try it a few times.  Something Native American or Buddhist or just silence whatever you're comfortable with.  Try it or stop asking for proof!!!  Y'all should love an experiment!!!

I asked a direct question; Did life begin in the ocean?  I got no direct answer.  Just saying. ;)  This is important to me because I was judged according to my "lack of knowledge" which appears to be accurate.  So if my knowledge is correct I need not go back to school.  Thanks

Thanks jynnan.  I am not guilty as charged.  I am freaking innocent!!!

Dante,

Kiss my grits. :)
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: wheels5894 on July 29, 2013, 07:54:56 AM
...I asked a direct question; Did life begin in the ocean?  I got no direct answer.  Just saying. ;)  This is important to me because I was judged according to my "lack of knowledge" which appears to be accurate.  So if my knowledge is correct I need not go back to school.  Thanks
...

Well, June, the fact is science is still looking for answers and we all have to wait to find out. Life must have started somewhere - the process is called abiogenesis. Have a read about it here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis). It is highly probable that life started in water but juts what sort of water and even at  what depth is waiting for more research.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: Dante on July 29, 2013, 08:35:11 AM

Dante,

Kiss my grits. :)

I just had a question! Dang......

 ;)
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: DumpsterFire on July 29, 2013, 10:54:02 AM
I define God as the beginning of life.  I don't see God as a person, place or thing.  I see God as Power/Pure Energy.  It took/takes a lot of Power to create/sustain this planet and the life on it.
How did god attain/become this power? Its OK to say you don't know.

Quote
This planet could get vaporized by a number of things in space but yet 4.5 billion years later it still orbits the sun, which I am told by science will blow up in 5 billion years.
While Earth has obviously not been "vaporized" by any interstellar objects, the fact is that our fair planet has experienced many cataclysmic events. Among these was an asteroid impact approximately 65 mil. years ago that most likely caused the extinction of the dinosaurs (along with 90%+ of all other living things), and another as recently as 1908 that decimated over 800 sq. miles of land in Russia. Apparently, god doesn't concern himself with "non-vaporizing" impacts. Why do you suppose that is?

Quote
  That is because the equation does not include God.  Add God to the equation and our sun may never blow up. That to me is the kind of "luck" I feel is too much.  If that kind of "luck" existed I could go to Vegas and never ever lose a game of poker.  To me this demonstrates a loving protector/creator. 
What you are saying is that because an event that science says should not happen until 5 billion more years have passed has not happened that this is somehow evidence for god. Please explain your logic.

Quote
As far as natural disasters I said many times here I believe they exist to shape and nourish the planet.  I believe we were given the intelligence to build homes that are not too close and that are water/wind proof as well.  I believe in a Loving Creator, not a mentally ill one.
Do you think a god with enough power to create our universe could come up with any other way besides deadly natural disasters to shape and nourish our planet? Please explain your answer.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: median on July 29, 2013, 12:01:32 PM
 
I define God as the beginning of life. 

Well that really nails it down! LOL

So if life began from a purely natural process, as one of the inevitable course of the universes properties (i.e. - the universe just is this way) you somehow call that God? No...just no. Putting the label 'G-d' on nature is absurd b/c that term is loaded with theological baggage. Nature is nature. There is no need to call it a deity name. Furthermore, nature doesn't tell us how it got here until we investigate, and just making up stuff (or accepting what you've heard from others) is just lazy.


I don't see God as a person, place or thing.  I see God as Power/Pure Energy. 

This is a direct contradiction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contradiction) (illogical). You are using the term "God" in an attempt to refer to something but then turning right around and saying that you aren't trying to refer to anything (all the while mentioning "Power/Pure Energy", which is something). So again, you've just contradicted yourself and ought to stop using these bad arguments.

You've been around here long enough to know that irrational/illogical arguments don't fly here (nor should they fly anywhere).


It took/takes a lot of Power to create/sustain this planet and the life on it.

The universe itself houses lots of energy ("power") - no deity required.

But what you have been doing so far with your arguments is called cherry-picking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_picking_%28fallacy%29) (aka confirmation bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias)). You are singling out the evidence that you think supports your position while completely ignoring contrary evidence or argument. This method is wrong too and it is one of the very pinnacle reasons why we have independent scientific investigation (to avoid confirmation bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias)).


This planet could get vaporized by a number of things in space but yet 4.5 billion years later it still orbits the sun, which I am told by science will blow up in 5 billion years.  That is because the equation does not include God.  Add God to the equation and our sun may never blow up.

Sure, you can add the ambiguous and incredibly vague term "God" as an explanation for just about anything you don't understand. But that is called The God of the Gaps Fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps) (putting "God" in wherever you lack knowledge - which solves nothing and explains nothing). For being around this forum so long you sure do use a lot of logical fallacies. You really should stop.

There are lots of things that 'could' happen to the universe at anytime. So what. Your ignorance of basic science is not a valid excuse for trying to explain what you don't personally understand with other things which you don't personally understand. Trying to explain mysteries by other bigger mysteries is absurd. Do you know what that's called?

SUPERSTiTiON!



To me this demonstrates a loving protector/creator. 

Here you are just demonstrating your ignorance of what it means to demonstrate something. Demonstrating a specific phenomena does not include the term "to me". Demonstrations are not just about opinions. So, like most superstitious people, you are mixing opinion with fact. They are not the same thing.



As far as natural disasters I said many times here I believe they exist to shape and nourish the planet.  I believe we were given the intelligence to build homes that are not too close and that are water/wind proof as well.  I believe in a Loving Creator, not a mentally ill one.

As usual, this is just another demonstration of ]confirmation bias. You take an assumption you have made (i.e. - that natural disasters are here to "nourish" and that there is a "creator" who is loving) and you single out ONLY the evidence that supports your assumption (while ignoring counter evidence or argument). So, instead of having a tentative (loosely held) hypothesis you have bought into a fixed and firmly held dogma that you are unwilling to alter due to your emotional investment from the git go. This is another form of intellectual laziness and dishonesty.


 (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/[quote author=junebug72 link=topic=25236.msg564828#msg564828 date=1375101820)

Spirit?  My spirit does not "feel" like emotions.  It feels like life; w/o it I would not be alive.  It starts in the center and works it's way out.  It is my link to God. 

These are more arguments from ignorance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance). You are doing a self-diagnosis (aka - personal non-demonstrable interpretation) and then putting labels on what you can't demonstrate and don't understand. Again, just because you "feel" something doesn't tell us anything as to whether or not your personal interpretation of that feeling is accurate, valid, or correct. For that you need demonstration and valid argument. But so far, all you've given are invalid (fallacious) arguments. In the science realm your view would be considered unsubstantiated, and (rightfully so) not taken seriously.


You can try it for your self if you want.  I would not dismiss it until you do or else people might think you're closed-minded.  You can find a tranquil place close your eyes, about an hour at least 30 min, try to "feel" your spirit too.  Try it a few times.


Been there, done that. Sorry, no sale. What you are missing is that when you first did this trick on yourself you already wanted to believe it. You were predisposed to confirmation bias (i.e. - you were practicing credulity (https://www.google.com/search?q=credulity&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a) and gullibility - and those are not good things b/c they aren't reliable for separating fact from fiction). I'm sorry to have to say this, but it's true. What you did was quite literally the same thing that fundamentalist Christians do (and Mormons and Muslims, etc, etc, etc). Someone comes to your door, gives you a 'holy' book, tells you to "pray to God and ask him if it's true" - and instead of questioning the very foundation of their assumption (i.e - that there is a god you can pray to who created this book) you justaccept their assumption and pray (which then leads to confirmation bias). It's called the fallacy of Circular Reasoning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning) and it fails miserably.

I'm sorry Junebug (I do like that name), but none of these arguments are new or good.

[/quote]
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: wheels5894 on July 29, 2013, 12:15:19 PM
Oh, let's cut to the chase!

According to Einstein's famous equation, matter and energy are one. So the whole of the universe could be see as pure energy. So, June sees the whole of the universe as god and we are all parts of this god. Magnificent! I will, however, leave the shortened name ot others and carry on calling it 'the Universe'.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: screwtape on July 29, 2013, 12:17:35 PM
I see God as Power/Pure Energy. 

pure power/ energy only exists in sci-fi and comic books.  Power and energy are abstraction, mathematical ideas created to make some predictions easier.  Without getting too mathy, energy is a force (also an abstraction) applied over a distance.  Power is the rate at which energy is used.  They are not a substance. Here is a picture of energy:
(http://michaelobermire.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Cropped-1936-Horse-drawn-plow.jpg)

"But I only see a horse pulling a plow?"
Exactly.  There is no glowing, pulsating ball of light and electricity.  Energy is what we call the effort of the horse used in pulling the plow.  The faster the horse moves, the greater the rate it delivers energy.  This is exactly where the term "horse power" comes from.  1 hp = 550 ftlbs/ sec.  That is, moving 550 lbs one foot in one second.  (Or 1 lb 550ft in 1 sec, or some combination thereof).

I would estimate that you getting your buns off the couch after three hours of Hee Haw would expend about 1/4 hp.  Still no glowing ball of light, crackling with electricity.


edit - fixed some bad grammar.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: Dante on July 29, 2013, 12:29:32 PM
Hold on there Nelly.  I am not trying to falsify evolution.  I just had a question dang.  I have said many times before here that I believe that it's part of God's plan.

So your god is sentient. Got it. 

Quote
I define God as the beginning of life.  I don't see God as a person, place or thing.  I see God as Power/Pure Energy.


So your god is not sentient. Got it.

Quote
  To me this demonstrates a loving protector/creator. 

So your god is sentient again. Got it.

Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: jaimehlers on July 29, 2013, 03:04:29 PM
I define God as the beginning of life.  I don't see God as a person, place or thing.  I see God as Power/Pure Energy.  It took/takes a lot of Power to create/sustain this planet and the life on it.  This planet could get vaporized by a number of things in space but yet 4.5 billion years later it still orbits the sun,
Actually, Sol is the source of the energy that sustains life on Earth, through the process of stellar fusion.  We don't need to have sentient energy (ala Star Trek Organians) doing it instead.

Quote from: junebug72
which I am told by science will blow up in 5 billion years.
Actually, Sol is too small to go nova.  It will probably become a red giant, though.

Quote from: junebug72
That is because the equation does not include God.  Add God to the equation and our sun may never blow up.
Why would you want to whistle in the dark over something that's not going to happen for billions of years?  More than likely there won't be any humans left by then, seeing as that's around hundred thousand times as long as human civilization in its entirety has existed and more than ten thousand times as long as the entire human species has existed.  And if there are, they'll almost certainly have either moved on to other, younger planets, or have figured out a way to save Earth from being burned to a cinder by Sol's eventual expansion.

Quote from: junebug72
That to me is the kind of "luck" I feel is too much.  If that kind of "luck" existed I could go to Vegas and never ever lose a game of poker.  To me this demonstrates a loving protector/creator.
Why would it demonstrate a protector/creator being to begin with?  I mean, why would adding sentient energy to the equation keep Sol from expanding?

Quote from: junebug72
As far as natural disasters I said many times here I believe they exist to shape and nourish the planet.  I believe we were given the intelligence to build homes that are not too close and that are water/wind proof as well.  I believe in a Loving Creator, not a mentally ill one.
Natural disasters exist because of the very same things that make life possible on this planet.  And people are not all that good at making disaster-proof residences/buildings, based on the number of homes that get burned down or flooded each year worldwide, not to mention destroyed in an earthquake or tsunami or hurricane or tornado.

Quote from: junebug72
Spirit?  My spirit does not "feel" like emotions.  It feels like life; w/o it I would not be alive.  It starts in the center and works it's way out.  It is my link to God.  You can try it for your self if you want.  I would not dismiss it until you do or else people might think you're closed-minded.  You can find a tranquil place close your eyes, about an hour at least 30 min, try to "feel" your spirit too.  Try it a few times.  Something Native American or Buddhist or just silence whatever you're comfortable with.  Try it or stop asking for proof!!!  Y'all should love an experiment!!!
You know, I've meditated too.  What you're feeling is not some special kind of energy working its way out, it's simply the rhythms of your own body.  It's the feeling of oxygen being metabolized all through the body and producing ATP; it's the feeling of our heart pumping blood which flows through our veins and arteries; it's the feeling of our nerves transmitting signals to each other.  As you said, your 'spirit' is your life.  Or more accurately, what you think of as your spirit is simply the feeling of being alive.

Why complicate the issue by giving it fancy names, or by imagining that it's a link to some great sentient spirit Source?
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: nogodsforme on July 29, 2013, 03:26:22 PM
Why doesn't the loving protector get busy with the loving and protecting? I mean in a general, universal unbiased way. Because some folks get a lot of loving and protecting while others get almost none.  People in Europe and North America get a lot more loving and protecting than people in most of South America, Africa and Asia. And it doesn't matter what they believe. Wonder why that is? &)

As for natural disasters, about that "nourishing and shaping the planet". It turns out that human beings are always going to live in the path of natural disasters, as if the loving creator planned it that way. Why else would the places that have the best soil, most water and other elements for human life also have the worst natural disasters?

And the disasters are not equally shared--but they happen in very scientifically predictable patterns. The Pacific Rim countries, like Japan and Indonesia, get way more than their fair share of earthquakes and volcanoes. Bangladesh gets more floods than most any other country. Tornadoes are largely limited to the southern and central US. Hurricanes in the Caribbean and US east coast. Blizzards and droughts in the centers of large continents. And so forth.

Deserts are very safe from earthquakes, floods, blizzards, volcanoes, tsunamis, forest fires. But deserts have too little water to sustain large populations. So people are going to be heavily concentrated in the places that have water, like floodplains, volcanic mountain valleys, coastal regions, river deltas and so forth. :-\

We should not have to build multi-million dollar reinforced fireproof bunkers raised up on  pylons sunk 20 feet into bedrock, just to live on the planet that was supposedly made especially for us. And even if we could afford to do that for everyone of 7 billion folks on earth, there would still be millions of animals and plants destroyed. :(

We would need to create a protective biosphere the size of the earth-- hey, there's an idea, how about an earth without all those disasters? You would think that a loving creator would just make a planet without the disasters. Or at least put the disasters (that nourish and shape the planet) where the populations were sparse, like at the poles, rather then in the most highly populated regions so a bunch of people have to die needlessly every year..... &)
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: median on July 29, 2013, 06:37:47 PM
Just to reply to this awful statement that "God is more likely than luck"...how do you know!?

When people talk about things being "more likely" than other things, they are discussing the subject of statistics. Now, in order to determine whether or not one event is "more likely" than another you need data points (aka - the kind you can put into an Excel spreadsheet and can use for calculations). But you don't have that! All you have is one universe, and no apparent "God" thing. Sure, you can just make up any fictitious answer you want saying, "My X-thing is more likely" but so what! Any of us can just makeup any convenient intellectually lazy answer we want in order to avoid doing our homework but that doesn't tell us anything about what is actually the case.

Claiming you know what is more likely assumes that you have done your research and that you have the data set to do the math (i.e. - multiple universes and/or gods creating them from which to calculate probability) in order to determine which answer is more probable. It also assumes that you have provided a cogent (understandable and rational) definition of the term "God", which you have not. So let's not pretend for a second that this alleged thing you call "God" is more likely than any phenomena of scientific inquiry. That is just another argument from ignorance. It's basically an admission that you don't really care if your beliefs are actually true. You've accepted this idea about "God" (which someone else likely told you about, and got you to accept a long time ago) and you're going with that regardless of which way the evidence goes. Well, guess what? That means you don't care about truth! You just want to feel comfortable in your belief. Unfortunately, that is the difference between you and most of us here. We do care about truth, and we are willing to sacrifice any cherished dogmas in order to discover it.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: Star Stuff on July 29, 2013, 07:52:56 PM
A Creator gives meaning and purpose to this hard life we live.  A reason for existing.  Luck doesn't do that.  Luck doesn't console the mind that doesn't want to die or the loved ones left behind. 

Holy crap, have you not learned one bloody thing since being here at this forum?!
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on July 29, 2013, 08:15:28 PM
That means you don't care about truth! You just want to feel comfortable in your belief. Unfortunately, that is the difference between you and most of us here. We do care about truth, and we are willing to sacrifice any cherished dogmas in order to discover it.

I do not think that Junebug does not care about the truth.  I think she expresses her experience of the truth in ways that are not always comprehensible to people who only care about what they can see in facts and figures and in logic.  Her education in science appears to have come largely from the science channel, the internet and this forum, not from attending college.  Her tone is folksy.  I don't understand why so many posters find it necessary to ridicule every sentence she writes.  It is not so difficult to respond to a question and correct inaccuracies without sarcasm.  Why must everyone who admits to feelings and spirituality be scorned?
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: Star Stuff on July 29, 2013, 08:27:13 PM
I do not think that Junebug does not care about the truth.

I don't concur.  I think she cares more about what feels all warm & fuzzy, and what supports her presuppositions.



Quote
I think she expresses her experience of the truth in ways that are not always comprehensible to people who only care about what they can see in facts and figures and in logic.

"Her experience" of the truth?  What on earth does that mean?




Quote
Her education in science appears to have come largely from the science channel, the internet and this forum, not from attending college.

And this deserves heaps of respect why?




Quote
Her tone is folksy.

Her tone to me is both delusional and mule-headed, wishing to cling to any messed up thing that supports her fantasy that the universe revolves around homo sapiens.




Quote
I don't understand why so many posters find it necessary to ridicule every sentence she writes.

So many?  Name one. She's been coddled and provided with more respect than anybody deserves given the semi-trailer loads of nonsense that she deliveres here on a daily basis,




Quote
It is not so difficult to respond to a question and correct inaccuracies without sarcasm.

 I can't know or speak to what other posts that you're referring to, but I wasn't being sarcastic.



Quote
Why must everyone who admits to feelings and spirituality be scorned?

I admit to feelings and a sense of awe, but JB does not just do that; she makes continuous wild, baseless, supernatural assertions without a shred of evidence or reason.  This does not deserve respect; it deserves mockery, but we're doing the best we can, and I think we deserve a ribbon for the patience employed.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: median on July 29, 2013, 08:58:48 PM
^^^ YES...
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on July 29, 2013, 09:56:30 PM
No one deserves mockery.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: median on July 29, 2013, 11:36:37 PM
No one deserves mockery.

1. And where was this mockery?

2. Whether or not someone "deserves" to be mocked has entirely to do with their actions


Btw, there is a big difference between having little tolerance for irrational nonsense and mocking (especially when someone refuses to admit their errors and/or discontinuing using bad arguments). For many of us, it's upsetting when someone brings forth irrational/fallacious arguments, has them pointed out, and then continues to use them over and over.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: DumpsterFire on July 30, 2013, 12:01:50 AM
No one deserves mockery.
I have attempted to maintain a very civil tone in this forum, and excepting a handful of posts here and there (particularly several exchanges with Wayne H.), I feel I have done quite well in this regard. I believe I have been at least as respectful and courteous with JB as any atheist here, not to mention I have yet to dole out my first -1 karma, be it to June or anyone else.

There doesn't seem to be much reward for such relative civility, however. I find that JB responds to my posts (even those containing direct, specific questions to her) with far less frequency and elaboration than she does to posts from the more provocative posters.

I have no plans to change my approach at present, but it certainly seems there is some truth in the old adages nice guys finish last and the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on July 30, 2013, 12:15:27 AM
No one deserves mockery.

1. And where was this mockery?

That was in response to this which I am too tired to quote by highlighting...
"This does not deserve respect; it deserves mockery,"
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: Cycle4Fun on July 30, 2013, 08:05:07 AM
You sound very intelligent here Median but there are flaws in your argument as well.  I should be well schooled in evolution by now participating on this forum with all the experts on the subject.  You buy right into it because you don't want there to be a God or a Creator.  I do.  So yes I will question what I know to be so about Evolution.  I don't have the time to take a biology class to learn this stuff nor the desire to do so.  I catch as much as I can on the Science channel and that's as far as I'm willing to go.  I am also very open to anything on the subject you wish to share.

If you want me to believe it I have to comprehend it.

Every version of evolution I have encountered says all life began in the ocean.  Decided to grow legs and eventually headed for land.  Is this true or false?  If true then my question about the process is very legitimate.

Yes I have a basic idea of the theory.  For me to just accept what other people say is exactly what you condemn people for on this sight.  Accepting things w/o asking questions.  I won't do that for religion and I won't do it for science.

You've shown very little interest in actually learning about the theory.  Your questions paint you as someone who hasn't done the least bit of research into the theory of evolution.  You are one step above asking why there aren't crockaducks or touting the shape of bananas as evidence of a creator.

Crocoduck: 
Banana:  [url=http://=http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Banana_fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crocoduck[/url)

Here, let me Google that for you.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=evolution&l=1 (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=evolution&l=1)
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: xyzzy on July 30, 2013, 06:18:18 PM
Oh, let's cut to the chase!

According to Einstein's famous equation, matter and energy are one. So the whole of the universe could be see as pure energy. So, June sees the whole of the universe as god and we are all parts of this god. Magnificent! I will, however, leave the shortened name ot others and carry on calling it 'the Universe'.

Well, if this god-thing is going to be defined as "pure energy", and if turns out that we do live in a zero-energy universe (or even close to that), can we then put this "gods exist" matter to bed, as a zero-energy god seems somewhat pointless? Although it's in accordance with what we observe. ;)

[/sarcasm]
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: junebug72 on July 31, 2013, 10:22:25 AM
I can't do this anymore.

Take care
Title: Re: God is More Likely than Luck
Post by: ParkingPlaces on July 31, 2013, 10:36:44 AM
I can't do this anymore.

Take care

And you shouldn't, kiddo. This is the wrong place for you to be when you're facing so much right now.

While many of us here disagreed with you in many ways, none of us would ever wish you harm. And we don't now. You go take care of your health problems, help your partner, and let your friends be your friends. We are irrelevant.

Until you get all better. Then we'll welcome you back with open arms and disagree with you again. In the meantime, take care of yourself.