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Main Discussion Zone => General Religious Discussion => Topic started by: Anfauglir on July 17, 2013, 03:44:04 AM

Title: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on July 17, 2013, 03:44:04 AM
I find this over and over again on this forum - what seems to be the simplest and directest question takes pages and pages of dodging and backsliding and ignoring until - maybe - you finally get an answer.

I'm sure there is a lot of discussion to be had about the psychology of it all, but I'm interested in a different question.

If there IS a god out there, and that god is as just and right and GOOD as most believers would have us believe - then why is all the dodging necessary in the first place?  Surely a god so good, so perfect, so right, would lead to discussions along the lines of:

Anfauglir: Can you explain why your god.....
Believer: (firmly) Yes.  It is because.....(specific and direct answer).
Anfauglir:  Ah, I see - that makes perfect sense.  Thank you.

Now THAT kind of god - the one where there was no need to dodge, no need to prevaricate, no need to shy away from "awkward" questions......THAT is a god that I could really get behind.  But these gods who are so tricksy, so convoluted, so demonstrative of so many negative behaviours that their believers have to dodge the questions and go into such lengthy apologetics......well, there just seems something suspicious about it all.

A truly good, truly godly god, would be very unlikely to raise any of these questions in the first place.  And it certainly wouldn't require the degree of evasion and goal-post shifting that we see so much of on these forums. 

If there was a truly good and godly god, it would be clear.  No nagging doubts, no endless arguments.  It would be clear and obvious to all.  The fact that it isn't may not necessarily mean there isn't a god out there.  But it sure makes it clear that there is something seriously wrong with the picture.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on July 17, 2013, 04:36:26 AM
A.D.D.  ??

Anfauglir:  Can you explain why your god...
Believer: (firmly) Yes.  It is because... Squirrel!!!
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: One Above All on July 17, 2013, 04:38:55 AM
I think it's because that, deep down, theists know their god is a bunch of BS. Same reason they avoid going to heaven at all costs by, for example, looking at both sides of the street before crossing it, taking antibiotics (based on the theory of evolution, if I might add). In fact, the theists who act as if they actually believed what they claim to believe are few. Those are the ones that make the news by letting their kids die instead of getting medical help.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: William on July 17, 2013, 05:00:23 AM
I think it's because that, deep down, theists know their god is a bunch of BS.

I doubt they'd agree their god is a bunch of BS but they sure know how to exploit the depth and generous spread of the BS at their disposal :laugh:  Their ability to make and defend emphatic statements of faith depends entirely on the slippery uncertainty of their foundations.
Challenge anything they say and they can just dodge behind the shelter of some other biblical quote or piece of theological excusiology, or invent some brand new BS of their own right on the spot  :laugh:

Just recently I re-watched this old but awesome lecture by Sapolsky:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WwAQqWUkpI
He gives a pertinent and useful description of the schizotypal personality, and the characteristics of the shaman - very useful insights into the human types and motives of the never-ending supply of theists marching against reason.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on July 17, 2013, 05:23:38 AM
I think it's because that, deep down, theists know their god is a bunch of BS. Same reason they avoid going to heaven at all costs by, for example, looking at both sides of the street before crossing it, taking antibiotics (based on the theory of evolution, if I might add). In fact, the theists who act as if they actually believed what they claim to believe are few. Those are the ones that make the news by letting their kids die instead of getting medical help.

I disagree.  I firmly believed what I believed until I stopped.  And I acted as if I believed.  I don't act any different now.  I have the same core values.  I just don't expect any god to help me.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on July 17, 2013, 05:24:01 AM
I firmly believed what I believed until I stopped.

Can I ask, when (if?) you encountered the kind of sustained questioning that goes on on this forum, did you find yourself having to avoid addressing certain questions?  Did you feel that you were giving direct and pertinent answers?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: One Above All on July 17, 2013, 05:26:43 AM
I disagree.  I firmly believed what I believed until I stopped.  And I acted as if I believed.  I don't act any different now.  I have the same core values.  I just don't expect any god to help me.

Your actions say otherwise. Why didn't you get a job clearing minefields, for example? Help people and have a higher chance of being taken to heaven early. Unless you didn't believe in an afterlife. Still, the chance to help poor people should be higher on your list than, say, helping yourself.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on July 17, 2013, 05:30:59 AM
I firmly believed what I believed until I stopped.

Can I ask, when (if?) you encountered the kind of sustained questioning that goes on on this forum, did you find yourself having to avoid addressing certain questions?  Did you feel that you were giving direct and pertinent answers?

I tried but I found having my beliefs questioned frustrating to the point that I just preferred to stay out of challenging discussions and hang around in jokes and chatter or social discussions where I could contribute positively.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on July 17, 2013, 05:36:56 AM
I disagree.  I firmly believed what I believed until I stopped.  And I acted as if I believed.  I don't act any different now.  I have the same core values.  I just don't expect any god to help me.

Your actions say otherwise. Why didn't you get a job clearing minefields, for example? Help people and have a higher chance of being taken to heaven early. Unless you didn't believe in an afterlife. Still, the chance to help poor people should be higher on your list than, say, helping yourself.

Well, I was in a war; worked in a refugee camp.  Not quite a minefield.  Was a homecare nurse until my employer threw me under the bus for being sick.  Used to always get chastised for keeping cases open too long.  I wasn't a fundie.  Didn't think you had to be "righteous" to get to heaven.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: One Above All on July 17, 2013, 05:42:07 AM
Well, I was in a war; worked in a refugee camp.  Not quite a minefield.  Was a homecare nurse until my employer threw me under the bus for being sick.  Used to always get chastised for keeping cases open too long.  I wasn't a fundie.  Didn't think you had to be "righteous" to get to heaven.

My apologies. I was wrong.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: junebug72 on July 17, 2013, 06:02:39 AM
First of all questions, about the origins of life are not simple questions.

Second they are defending their man made religions.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on July 17, 2013, 06:07:16 AM
Well, I was in a war; worked in a refugee camp.  Not quite a minefield.  Was a homecare nurse until my employer threw me under the bus for being sick.  Used to always get chastised for keeping cases open too long.  I wasn't a fundie.  Didn't think you had to be "righteous" to get to heaven.

My apologies. I was wrong.

No worries.  Will stop at eating babies, though.  My cholesterol is too high.   ;)
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: One Above All on July 17, 2013, 06:10:57 AM
No worries.  Will stop at eating babies, though.  My cholesterol is too high.   ;)

Dunno about mine. I just came back from a blood test, actually. I hate having needles shoved into my body, but it's necessary to do a check-up every now and then. I hope my cholesterol isn't high from eating all those cheeseburgers[1].
 1. I haven't had any in years, so now I miss them.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Add Homonym on July 17, 2013, 09:19:47 AM
Second they are defending their man made religions.

If I made a religion, it wouldn't be so shitty that I couldn't explain nearly everything. I think it's because many men made it, via committee.



Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: neopagan on July 17, 2013, 09:22:05 AM
Can I ask, when (if?) you encountered the kind of sustained questioning that goes on on this forum, did you find yourself having to avoid addressing certain questions? 
I will jump in on this one too, since I officially swore off gods/belief about 6 months ago... 
I never encountered the straightforward questions like I see here.  I ran into unbelievers, but they were never ones to challenge my fundie views.  I had questions wallowing around in my mind for years - beginnings of what you see on here (especially about things I read in the bible), but I shelved them and tried to build my faith.

Quote
Did you feel that you were giving direct and pertinent answers?

I guess I have to point out my experieince in the evangelical community (especially the more fundie and this is across numerous churches/cities I've been in) tend to circle jerk a lot, so they never hear real questions from the "outside." 

I think that's why you see a few of them show up here, give broad, rambling sermon-type pronouncements and then leave in a huff the first time the "godless" respond.  They are used to the circle jerk where everyone nods their head at their SPAG brilliance and quotes another personal favorite verse.  It's really a sick scenario, from what I can SEE now stepping out of it.

I once "thought" answers like "well, you won't see that becasue you don't have faith or god hasn't opened your eyes," or the "fool says in his heart there is no god" were the end all type statements - debate over. 

I struggle now with a creeping self-loathing that I believed all that stuff for so long and was such a dunce... yuck
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Energized on July 17, 2013, 11:19:20 AM

....

If there was a truly good and godly god, it would be clear.  No nagging doubts, no endless arguments.  It would be clear and obvious to all.  The fact that it isn't may not necessarily mean there isn't a god out there.  But it sure makes it clear that there is something seriously wrong with the picture.

But that's their "out", isn't it?

The whole of the new testament rams home the notion of faith in what can't be seen. It's such a common theme with the gospels of MMLJ. Have faith and you can move mountain, believe I am who I say I am, etc... With this repetitiveness, it's almost as though the fundie expects things NOT to be clear because they have to have faith to gain their heavenly riches.

What I find more irritating are the fundies who don't give the answer of "I don't know" and leave it at that. They come here (and elsewhere) thinking they're going to convert everyone to their religion and they do it in such a smug and prideful (sinful) way that they can't admit that they don't have an answer to a question you pose. They have to have the last and final word. Look at any of the debates between the fundie anchors on Fox (Faux) News and the atheists. When the atheist is clearly making more sense than the anchor, the anchor blathers on and on at the end and cuts the atheist off by going to commercial.

Happens. Every. Fucking. Time.

Psychologically, I tend to agree with OneAboveAll - perhaps deep down they don't really believe, but they have to win the argument at any cost to keep up the charade.

I have had discussions on a lot boards over theology and if the christian I am "debating" says "I don't know" I usually stop the debate and thank them for an honest answer. If they're being genuine with this admission, my hope is that the doubt will fester to the point they start to question the rest of the bullshit they believe.

Seriously, fundies - "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable response to a question. If you can't admit you don't know and start shifting goalposts, you lose what little respect you'd gained up until that point.

E.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on July 17, 2013, 11:21:46 AM


I struggle now with a creeping self-loathing that I believed all that stuff for so long and was such a dunce... yuck

I don't choose to feel that way.  I prefer to put God/Jesus on the shelf with Santa Claus.  Someone who served a purpose in my life for a while but now doesn't.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Energized on July 17, 2013, 11:30:14 AM

I struggle now with a creeping self-loathing that I believed all that stuff for so long and was such a dunce... yuck

Me too. When I think of the relationships I ruined with this nonsense I feel so guilty.

E.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Truth OT on July 17, 2013, 02:14:08 PM
Can I ask, when (if?) you encountered the kind of sustained questioning that goes on on this forum, did you find yourself having to avoid addressing certain questions? Did you feel that you were giving direct and pertinent answers?

At the time, I did not think I avoided anything and I thought all of my answers were direct and on point, but looking back, I can see a lot more circular reasoning and obfuscation that I had no idea I was doing at the time. I believe that at times, our faith and convictions no manner what they are placed in can be hindering to our ability to think and process data efficiently and correctly. Our brains seem wired to find ways of confirming what we believe and that is why I think change can be such a difficult process.

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on July 17, 2013, 02:51:23 PM
Showing up here, where there are tens of thousands (well, a few dozen) potential converts, and most believers seem to say to themselves "Wowsers, this should be easy!" Apparently it isn't.

I can't speak from experience because what little belief I had was long, long ago. But I've always sort of assumed that those who really believe do so without giving the subject much thought, and they have no idea how unset in stone their own justifications are. Let alone anything about how inadequate their self-knowledge about their own religious mind is. 

Mostly because they've never really thought about it, and hence they soon find themselves tripping over their own words as they try to put them in a form that both they and we can understand. Which apparently is not possible. So they hope that we atheists will say something that qualifies as useful feedback, of the positive variety, of course. We keep forgetting to do that.

But since they are mired in their own misplaced certainty, there isn't much else they can do. Except leave in frustration. Which most end up doing.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: nogodsforme on July 17, 2013, 04:07:20 PM
Remembering my JW days (years) I can tell you that we were instructed not to listen to any kind of arguments that might undermine our commitment to the religion. We were not to associate with unbelievers except when actively Witnessing. And, when Witnessing, we were not to engage the sinner directly in real conversation, ie, do not listen and respond to what they said or give real answers to questions. We had our script, literally memorized and rehearsed ahead of time; we were supposed to work it into the discussion, no matter what the person said. 

It was like hard sell sales training: don't accept no for an answer, overcome any objections by repeating the features of the product, and if the person is not receptive, do not waste time in conversation. Move on.

That's why I distinguish the JW's from sneaky (and wealthier) cults like the Moonies and Scientology. There are no front organizations, celebrities or newspapers like the Washington Times to overtly or covertly promote JW viewpoints. We never lied to people about why we were on their doorstep; we never "love-bombed"  lonely teenagers, or tried to con all a person's inheritance money out of them.   We did not have any secret agenda or tricking people into coming to a Kingdom Hall and then not letting them leave. With the JW's you know exactly what you are getting into. And yet, people still join! Amazing. :P

So, JW's don't pay any attention to opposing viewpoints. Like Mormons, we mainly associated with our own kind and were proud of being apart from the sinful worldly world. Not many real deal JW's are going to show up here, because they are told to be afraid of being tricked by the devil into listening to atheistic arguments that might even appear to have some truth in them. :o
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on July 17, 2013, 04:19:59 PM
That's why I distinguish the JW's from sneaky (and wealthier) cults like the Moonies and Scientology.
I think it's known to a lot of forum members that I am going through a lot of crap right now.  Well one of the people who has actually shown me support is my friendly neighborhood JW saleslady.  When my power got turned off she did more than pray.  She brought me candles and 2 bags of ice.  She stops by regularly to see how I'm doing.  Yes, she prays.  But she acknowledges that my doubts can be directly attributed to absence of victory in my life.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: nogodsforme on July 17, 2013, 05:16:40 PM
That's why I distinguish the JW's from sneaky (and wealthier) cults like the Moonies and Scientology.
I think it's known to a lot of forum members that I am going through a lot of crap right now.  Well one of the people who has actually shown me support is my friendly neighborhood JW saleslady.  When my power got turned off she did more than pray.  She brought me candles and 2 bags of ice.  She stops by regularly to see how I'm doing.  Yes, she prays.  But she acknowledges that my doubts can be directly attributed to absence of victory in my life.

I never said JW's are not nice people. At least JW's are good for something, if only candles and ice.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on July 18, 2013, 03:51:29 AM
If there was a truly good and godly god, it would be clear.  No nagging doubts, no endless arguments.  It would be clear and obvious to all.  The fact that it isn't may not necessarily mean there isn't a god out there.  But it sure makes it clear that there is something seriously wrong with the picture.

But that's their "out", isn't it?

The whole of the new testament rams home the notion of faith in what can't be seen. It's such a common theme with the gospels of MMLJ. Have faith and you can move mountain, believe I am who I say I am, etc... With this repetitiveness, it's almost as though the fundie expects things NOT to be clear because they have to have faith to gain their heavenly riches.

I can see where they are coming from - but again, it's shading my point.  A super-loving godly god, worthy of being called GOD, would not require any apologetics, any mystery, any twisty thinking.  It would just be, end of.

I can see what Paul was heading towards in his point about the obviousness of god in everything there is, and I absolutely agree: we SHOULD be able to see god, in everything, all the time, without thinking or faith or "yes with an if or no with a but", as the good Rev.Lovejoy said.  But the trouble is that we do not.  No "proper" god is as clearly evident in everything as it ought to be. 

Like....imagine the best interior designer in the world.  If you walked into one of his houses, you'd see how every single thing fit together.  Every piece would match, every colour perfectly complement it all.  There would be no jarring colours, no unfinished bits, no live wires hanging out - it would all be 100% right.  Not the best analogy, but I hope its clear what I mean.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: epidemic on July 18, 2013, 07:27:07 AM
I think it's because that, deep down, theists know their god is a bunch of BS. Same reason they avoid going to heaven at all costs by, for example, looking at both sides of the street before crossing it, taking antibiotics (based on the theory of evolution, if I might add). In fact, the theists who act as if they actually believed what they claim to believe are few. Those are the ones that make the news by letting their kids die instead of getting medical help.

Well actually they do not have to believe their god is imaginary to have difficulty answering your questions.  The get our of Jail card for theists and the religious is simple.  God works in mysterious ways.  just like no one here can explain the initial origins of the universe, you simply press the I believe button that the universe came into existence by what ever means. 

So ask a religious believer, Why did god let that baby die, they can answer "because there was a purpose we can not understand at this moment." 

Some times they get roped into explaining something they thought they understood only to find out that it really was just another of gods wonderous mysteries.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: El Guapo on July 18, 2013, 08:05:59 AM

I agree with epidemic. 

To quote Dawkins “I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.”
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on July 18, 2013, 09:55:28 AM
The get our of Jail card for theists and the religious is simple.  God works in mysterious ways.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. It's a good thing that god operates in mysterious ways. Otherwise the religious would have no way to explain anything.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Star Stuff on July 18, 2013, 10:55:15 AM
If there was a truly good and godly god, it would be clear.  No nagging doubts, no endless arguments....

I saw a sign outside a church the other day; it read:  "Feed your faith, and your doubts will starve to death".  To the theist/believer, this adage sounds good, makes sense, and something to strive for.  Unfortunately, they do so with the false idea that "faith" is a good thing.  I think that a good working definition for faith is: "The effort to believe that which you know is not true".

And added to that, they feel that doubt is a bad thing, when in fact (as other adages suggest):

"Modest doubt is the beacon of the wise"

"Doubt is the mother of all knowledge."


So it is very saddening that the theist will view that sign with approval.  What it's really saying is: "Don't think critically"  "Just believe"  "Turn off your brain and succumb to the intoxicating stupor of faith".  "Feed your effort to believe that which you know isn't true, and the cognitive dissonance will fade."

So sad.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Danohk on July 18, 2013, 11:56:54 AM
The world is filled with unreasonable people who have not thoroughly examined their positions.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: neopagan on July 18, 2013, 12:11:40 PM
The world is filled with unreasonable people who have not thoroughly examined their positions.

Welcome danohk

That comment puts you squarely in the middle of... To whom are you referring or are you just making a general observation about life on this planet?  Do you mean believers, atheists, bowlers, mimes?

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Danohk on July 18, 2013, 12:18:16 PM
It was an attempt to answer the topic question.  It refers to all humanity.  In a world filled with such individuals, getting a direct answer to a direct question from anyone is a simple improbability.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: nogodsforme on July 18, 2013, 02:36:17 PM
^^^^Atheists, and others on this board feel pretty strongly about giving straight, honest answers to direct questions. Even if the straight honest answer is "I don't know", "I'd rather not say", or "I haven't thought about that". Because it is frustrating that we get so many convoluted, illogical, made-up-on-the-spot or regurgitated unthought-out non-answers, mainly from the religious folks who come here.

When we insist on real answers, and refuse to back down, some get offended and accuse us of hating religious people. &)
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: xyzzy on July 19, 2013, 03:54:09 AM
I've wondered the same, particularly as the inability of my parents and the various religious teachers to give consistent, non-contradictory, answers to simple questions, was one of the dominating factors that contributed to my very early rejection of religion.

Having asked various friends a similar question, it seems that most simply have a set of rehearsed answers. However, they are so rote that they rarely examine them for consistency, or content. They then retreat to "mystery" when forced to consider why their answers don't actually make sense or even answer the question. By the way, I get similar responses from my New Age friends too.

Perhaps two of the most honest answers I received were: "You know, I don't think I've ever thought about why I believe what I believe, it's just how I was brought up" and "it doesn't matter, my preacher says that even if the stories in the bible weren't always accurate, or that the characters were fiction, it's the message that matters" (go with it for a moment). Both went on to say that they'd continue believing anyway because, well, that's what they believed. When I pointed out that was inherently circular and allowed for any arbitrary belief, both of their brains exploded - well, they decided they needed to disagree and they'd rather not talk about it any more.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on July 19, 2013, 04:12:53 AM
The get our of Jail card for theists and the religious is simple.  God works in mysterious ways.  .....  So ask a religious believer, Why did god let that baby die, they can answer "because there was a purpose we can not understand at this moment." 

But again (and maybe its just me), even that fails to address any of the points I've been making here.  If there were a god who was utterly good and godly, there would BE no "mysterious ways".  His goodness and godliness would be clear and visible to all.

- - -

Additionally - "a purpose we can not understand at this moment"....implies what? 

Is it that "there is knowledge we do not have that would make everything clear?"  In which case, why is this good godly god not sharing that knowledge with us now?  This answers implies that god is deliberately withholding information in order to make himself seem less godly.  I cannot fathom why a good god - especially one who purportedly wants us all to come to him and love him - would want to deliberatly obscure his goodness.

The alternative is "there is knowledge that makes everything clear that is currently available, but that we do not understand yet".  This causes similar problems to the above.  A true godly god, particularly who created everything, is solely responsible for how that universe operates.  This answer implies that his universe was designed so that most, if not all, people would not be capable of understanding his goodness - which gives the same issues as above.

Ultimately, "mysterious ways" is simply a cop-out.  When asked the question "here is what this being does, is it a good being or a bad being", it gives the answer "despite it doing bad things, I will choose to describe it as good because that's what it says it is". 

It's an attitude to which I always think "well, good luck with that", as I hope that (a) they never get a job in law enforcement or social services ("well, despite the repeated bruising and broken bones, I accepted the father's story that the boy just kept tripping over"), and (b) urge them strongly never to open the door, or read any emails ("but he was a Nigerian Prince who just wanted £1000 and access to my bank account!").  It's an attitude that in any other circumstances would lead to terrible consequences for them, and (hopefully) a short sharp learning curve.  Perhaps the tragedy of religion is that there IS no god to take advantage of the unevidenced belief, and so those short sharp shocks of realisation just do not happen.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: xyzzy on July 19, 2013, 05:17:59 AM
But again (and maybe its just me), even that fails to address any of the points I've been making here.  If there were a god who was utterly good and godly, there would BE no "mysterious ways".  His goodness and godliness would be clear and visible to all.

I seriously doubt that it's just you. But to a believer being unable to explain why a perfectly loving, honest, just god, would purposely cause confusion and hide himself from the very people he supposedly wants to love him, tends to "mystery" or "faith". After all, the most obvious answer of nonexistence isn't an option at that point.

Those positions though just seem to make matters worse. Now we have people who may even claim a "relationship" with an entity that is both accessible and inaccessible, as well as being understood with perfect clarity whilst equally being an ineffable mystery - and potentially all at the same time. That's some seriously awesome mixed up behavior.

It's like bizzaro world on steroids. Yet, when it's questioned, the self-reinforcing excuses and thought stopping techniques seem to serve to head-off what could result in some Olympic-worthy cognitive dissonance.

For me, it was more of the stuff that I was told I'd understand when I was older. What those people missed, though, was that I already understood the answer. Emperor, meet clothes, so to speak.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: junebug72 on July 19, 2013, 06:29:23 AM
If there was a truly good and godly god, it would be clear.  No nagging doubts, no endless arguments.  It would be clear and obvious to all.  The fact that it isn't may not necessarily mean there isn't a god out there.  But it sure makes it clear that there is something seriously wrong with the picture.

But that's their "out", isn't it?

The whole of the new testament rams home the notion of faith in what can't be seen. It's such a common theme with the gospels of MMLJ. Have faith and you can move mountain, believe I am who I say I am, etc... With this repetitiveness, it's almost as though the fundie expects things NOT to be clear because they have to have faith to gain their heavenly riches.

I can see where they are coming from - but again, it's shading my point.  A super-loving godly god, worthy of being called GOD, would not require any apologetics, any mystery, any twisty thinking.  It would just be, end of.

I can see what Paul was heading towards in his point about the obviousness of god in everything there is, and I absolutely agree: we SHOULD be able to see god, in everything, all the time, without thinking or faith or "yes with an if or no with a but", as the good Rev.Lovejoy said.  But the trouble is that we do not.  No "proper" god is as clearly evident in everything as it ought to be. 

Like....imagine the best interior designer in the world.  If you walked into one of his houses, you'd see how every single thing fit together.  Every piece would match, every colour perfectly complement it all.  There would be no jarring colours, no unfinished bits, no live wires hanging out - it would all be 100% right.  Not the best analogy, but I hope its clear what I mean.

God doesn't need apologetics; religion does.

Maybe if we all followed the path of LOVE the smoke would clear.  Get rid of religion not the "magic" and all the confusion that comes with it.  You know wipe the slate clean use the knowledge we have accumulated over time and see where it takes us.  Out with the old in with the new. 


Our existence is magical.  It is a gift.  Even with all the crap we put on each other, to see a sunrise or set, to hold a newborn baby in your arms, to see a drug addict recover, medical breakthroughs that save lives. The day we stop using fossil fuels. There is a lot to be thankful for and a lot we can improve if we just Love one another.  I believe in Love.

When I look around the universe, this planet, it does fit together amazingly.  Love is amazing!!!  The rest is up to us.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: The Gawd on July 19, 2013, 07:02:56 AM
God doesn't need apologetics; religion does.

Maybe if we all followed the path of LOVE the smoke would clear.  Get rid of religion not the "magic" and all the confusion that comes with it.  You know wipe the slate clean use the knowledge we have accumulated over time and see where it takes us.  Out with the old in with the new. 


Our existence is magical.  It is a gift.  Even with all the crap we put on each other, to see a sunrise or set, to hold a newborn baby in your arms, to see a drug addict recover, medical breakthroughs that save lives. The day we stop using fossil fuels. There is a lot to be thankful for and a lot we can improve if we just Love one another.  I believe in Love.

When I look around the universe, this planet, it does fit together amazingly.  Love is amazing!!!  The rest is up to us.

none of that requires magic. As a matter of fact, there is no magic.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on July 19, 2013, 09:19:20 AM
^^^^Atheists, and others on this board feel pretty strongly about giving straight, honest answers to direct questions. Even if the straight honest answer is "I don't know", "I'd rather not say", or "I haven't thought about that".

This was my answer too many times.  But when only logical answer appeared to be "because god is really being an asshole."  That is what lead me to where I am now.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: SkyWriting on July 19, 2013, 02:00:51 PM
If there was a truly good and godly god, it would be clear.  No nagging doubts, no endless arguments.  It would be clear and obvious to all.  The fact that it isn't may not necessarily mean there isn't a god out there.  But it sure makes it clear that there is something seriously wrong with the picture.

You hit the nail on the head.
1. God walked with Adam in the Garden.
2. Adam was removed from the Garden and the gateway was set with guards.
3. You were born outside of the garden where God walked.

You were born into a world where God does not walk.  Setting up a communication
channel is hard work, mentally speaking.  This fits your observations to a tee.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Mooby on July 20, 2013, 12:59:30 PM
I've found that when I do give a simple, direct answers, atheists tend to not accept them because they're not the answers they were looking for, and they keep asking more convoluted questions to get the answer they want until the answers become convoluted as well.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on July 20, 2013, 01:29:30 PM
I've found that when I do give a simple, direct answers, atheists tend to not accept them because they're not the answers they were looking for, and they keep asking more convoluted questions to get the answer they want until the answers become convoluted as well.

When you believe and have faith - I believe and I have faith is the answer; but it is deemed unacceptable.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Mooby on July 20, 2013, 01:34:47 PM
Then the issue is not that Christians refuse to answer a direct question with a simple, direct answer; the issue is for those asking a question where they already know they won't accept the most simple, direct answer as true.

The same issue arises when creationists ask a direct question about evolution and are given a simple, direct explanation of evolutionary principles, but reject the answer because they don't accept evolution.  The issue is not with the person answering; the issue is that the person asking has already predetermined they will reject the simple, direct answer.  In this case, it is misplaced to then ask why simple, direct (acceptable) answers are not given.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: nogodsforme on July 20, 2013, 02:56:52 PM
I've found that when I do give a simple, direct answers, atheists tend to not accept them because they're not the answers they were looking for, and they keep asking more convoluted questions to get the answer they want until the answers become convoluted as well.

You are an exception, Mooby. I have found that you do give simple, direct (if not easy to understand) answers. But your answers don't jibe with the answers we get from other Christians, and are not what some of us were taught growing up as Christians of whatever stripe. Since your answers don't have any more basis in reality than the others, they have to be guesses based on how you interpret the bible, right? How do you know that you are right?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on July 21, 2013, 03:05:47 AM
If there was a truly good and godly god, it would be clear.  No nagging doubts, no endless arguments.  It would be clear and obvious to all.  The fact that it isn't may not necessarily mean there isn't a god out there.  But it sure makes it clear that there is something seriously wrong with the picture.

You hit the nail on the head.
1. God walked with Adam in the Garden.
2. Adam was removed from the Garden and the gateway was set with guards.
3. You were born outside of the garden where God walked.

You were born into a world where God does not walk.  Setting up a communication
channel is hard work, mentally speaking.  This fits your observations to a tee.

Unfortunately, none of that gels with a god who - we are told - (a) loves us, and (b) desperately wants a relationship with him.  Anyone I want a relationship with, I will not kick out of my house and set guards on the door for starters. 

But more importantly - and I hate to break this to you - but I am talking about a GOD.  Not someone with a couple superpowers and a nifty hat, but a GOD.  A being who is above all the petty laws of existence, a being for whom reality conforms to his wishes.  Such a being would be so clear, so obvious, that there would be no argument.  Such being could - if it chose - be in constant communication, simultaneously, with every being in its creation.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: William on July 21, 2013, 03:25:07 AM
You were born into a world where God does not walk.

Does not walk but can walk?  Or absolutely can't walk?
I thought this God is Almighty  :?

What a pathetic God full of quirky foibles - like self-limiting Himself to just the one Son as well.
It's all nonsense folks  :police: - and theists are making it up as they go along  &)
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on July 21, 2013, 03:31:55 AM
Although there's not been a lot of response from believers to this thread, the general answer seems to be "yes we do!  We answer all questions directly first time!"

I am really looking forward to going back out there to the forum and seeing my questions answered that way.  Clearly my perceptions have been wrong all this time.....   :P

I've linked to this thread in my signature though - just in case I need to refer anyone to it in future.....
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on July 21, 2013, 03:44:01 AM
Then the issue is not that Christians refuse to answer a direct question with a simple, direct answer; the issue is for those asking a question where they already know they won't accept the most simple, direct answer as true.

Hmmm.  I'd appreciate being told if I'm misrepresenting myself here......

When I get answers, the issue is not necessarily whether I believe the answer is true - it is whether I believe the answer to be coherent, and/or supported.

For example: "What colour is your car?"  "My car is red".   Direct answer.  I may not believe it is a true answer, but it was a direct answer.  I have the information on what colour the believer says his car is, and although I may not believe it, at least I have clear information.  Sadly, I am far more often involved in conversations that - to me - seem to go like this.....

"What colour is your car?"  "Cars are beloved by god."   "Yes, but what colour is your car?"  "I once had a bicycle"  "Yes, but what colour is your car?"  "My car could be said to be red".   "Sorry, what does that mean?"  "Many Christians have cars".     "Yes, but what colour is your car?"    "My car is normally red"    "What do you mean, normally?"  "Cars help you travel around"     "Yes, but what colour is your car? What did you mean by normally?"  "My car is often blue".   "Wait - you said normally red and now often blue.  I don't understand.  Please tell me what colour your car is"........and so on, ad nauseam.

It is very rare I experience the first conversation.  Far more often, I experience the latter.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: neopagan on July 21, 2013, 09:11:30 AM
A baptist could tell you his car is red... it's the catholics, methodist, presbyterians, etc who have their colors/colours all screwed up...   &)
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: junebug72 on July 21, 2013, 09:24:30 AM
^^^^Atheists, and others on this board feel pretty strongly about giving straight, honest answers to direct questions. Even if the straight honest answer is "I don't know", "I'd rather not say", or "I haven't thought about that". Because it is frustrating that we get so many convoluted, illogical, made-up-on-the-spot or regurgitated unthought-out non-answers, mainly from the religious folks who come here.

When we insist on real answers, and refuse to back down, some get offended and accuse us of hating religious people. &)

1 against many is a hard spot to be in.  Saying things like "take a long walk off a short pier" is pretty hateful.  The name calling, it's beneath you all.  So they run away feeling pretty darn good about being christians cause they're not calling you stupid.  They come here because they care about you even if you don't believe their way , they're here because they care and you all call them stupid and say some mean things. 

You, yourself might not be guilty NoGods, but you should go read the last post Anfauglir left for me.  If that's not a believer hater I don't know what is.  I tried my ass off to make peace with that man and the only way that was going to happen was for me to accept his version of how the world is. 

Go see how Ponytail and star stuff taunted me in my first thread. 

I really shouldn't be trying to help atheist because I strongly disagree that it's best for the world and I should continue giving you the proverbial "rope" but we do need  challenges to the religions that plague our world.  This website does an excellent job at that.  It has taught me a lot.  I have, I think, a better understanding of God now than I did when I first came here. 

I give Anfauglir direct answers and still got told I was dodging.  I really don't think it's possible to answer his questions even when you answer them.  I could not have made a more honest attempt to answer him and every body else on that thread.  Our answers seem irrational to you but that doesn't give you a free pass to be insulting.  You can point out your disagreements w/o calling people irrational, stupid, or mentally ill.

Sometimes your questions aren't as direct as you might think they are. 

It's just perspective from the other side.

Talking about the origins of life is much deeper conversation than the color of a car or socks or car keys. 

There are no direct answers.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: SkyWriting on July 21, 2013, 11:47:30 AM
If there was a truly good and godly god, it would be clear.  No nagging doubts, no endless arguments.  It would be clear and obvious to all.  The fact that it isn't may not necessarily mean there isn't a god out there.  But it sure makes it clear that there is something seriously wrong with the picture.

You hit the nail on the head.
1. God walked with Adam in the Garden.
2. Adam was removed from the Garden and the gateway was set with guards.
3. You were born outside of the garden where God walked.

You were born into a world where God does not walk.  Setting up a communication
channel is hard work, mentally speaking.  This fits your observations to a tee.

Unfortunately, none of that gels with a god who - we are told - (a) loves us, and (b) desperately wants a relationship with him.  Anyone I want a relationship with, I will not kick out of my house and set guards on the door for starters. 

But more importantly - and I hate to break this to you - but I am talking about a GOD.  Not someone with a couple superpowers and a nifty hat, but a GOD.  A being who is above all the petty laws of existence, a being for whom reality conforms to his wishes.  Such a being would be so clear, so obvious, that there would be no argument.  Such being could - if it chose - be in constant communication, simultaneously, with every being in its creation.

You are describing the original creation as the scriptures tell it.  Then then came a time where
man was banished from the garden and guards were stationed at the gate.  Anyone born after that was born into a sin world.  Sin is separation from God, so the two cannot be the same.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: nogodsforme on July 21, 2013, 01:11:32 PM
I hear you, junebug. You are very frustrated with the responses that you get from some people on this board. Your final sentence is the source of the problem: "there are no direct answers".

If that is so, then there is not much that religious, god-believers or theists of whatever stripe can say to us. They all should stop telling us that we like sinning or just don't understand reality or hate god, or are stupid or arrogant or going to hell, etc. They should stop preaching and proselytizing. They should stop passing laws that discriminate against us. Because if there are no direct answers to our questions, there can't be any wrong answers, either.

We are as right as you are--maybe more right than you are because we at least have scientific facts and observed reality on our side instead of fleeting personal feelings, ancient magic stories and superstitions that can't be true.

When societies base their policies on gods, magic and feelings, people live until 45 and die of easily preventable causes. When societies apply rational science and reality-based ideas, everyone is far better off. We have the global evidence to prove it--just compare life in "godless" Japan or Sweden to life in god-heavy Bangladesh or Afghanistan.

So, we are pretty darn frustrated, too. Most of the progress that human beings have achieved is because some people were brave enough to ignore the ancient magic books and superstitions. We have to live in a world where the answers to many of the world's problems are clear, but we are surrounded by people who say, "there are no direct answers".

But who still benefit every day from the direct answers produced by people like us. :P
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: jaimehlers on July 21, 2013, 02:17:19 PM
^Indeed.  Junebug, you have to remember that people like Anfauglir have been dealing with theists who have stated that they know "the truth" for years.  Yet they haven't actually been able to articulate any details about that truth, anything that would support it.  Indeed, when they try, it degenerates into a mess of beliefs, rationalizations, and subjective feelings.

But you'd be wrong to call them "believer haters".  I get some of that from a person who I argue with in comment threads relating to the local newspaper - he keeps saying I hate him because I strongly disagree with what he says, disapprove of much of it, and get frustrated with his intransigence.  To him, the mere fact that I disagree, disapprove, and get frustrated 'proves' that I hate him - he takes my comments and attributes a personal spin to them, which he interprets as hatred.  That sounds an awful lot like what you're saying about Anfauglir and others.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: neopagan on July 21, 2013, 02:58:20 PM
I see no place for name calling, but then again calling someone a "sinner" or a "murderer" is pretty offensive too... even if it's baby faced Kirk Cameron doing it with a banana in his hand.

However, I have only been here a short time and I am amazed at how patient some of the long timers are at times from hearing the same old tired arguments and logical fallacies from some of the drive by theists. 
I am impressed by some of the longer term theists on here who stay at it too despite being the  minority
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: xyzzy on July 21, 2013, 04:55:02 PM
Sometimes your questions aren't as direct as you might think they are. 

It's just perspective from the other side.

Talking about the origins of life is much deeper conversation than the color of a car or socks or car keys. 

There are no direct answers.

Do you have any answers though? You have beliefs, I'd love to hear your answers. It's probably not a good time right now (how are you doing?), but do tell us what your view is.

Also, I just wanted to pick up on a couple of things you said. Now, this is just an example of how we can hear different things. It's not commentary on your answers as such.

You were talking about questions not being direct, yet you've also given a short, perhaps one-word sentence, reply "it's that simple" which is pretty direct but lacking in detail. Perhaps you could help out and let people know why the question isn't as simple as it sounds. I'd appreciate it, it's nothing personal.

Now, back to "it's that simple" and I pick on that because I am sure to you, it's that simple. And that phrase is "spiritual but not religious". When you say that, I have absolutely no idea what you mean. None at all. Lori kindly gave an example along the lines she interpreted. Perhaps never having been a believer, I have no reference. I did appreciate much better your likely stance from her post, but I still don't know if that's how you see the world or not.

Also, I have many friends to whom "spiritual but not religious" means totally different things. Those with Buddhist leanings say one thing, the new-agers give me others from "communicating with native American Spirits via drumming" to deepities  (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Deepity) concerning Quantum nonsense where I absolutely understand every individual word in the sentence, yet, together they are an incoherent mess. My Yoga instructor friends (also new age) give me a slightly different slant and in the middle, or a common thread, is the Capital U - Universe. Then, of course, those that came from a previous religious position, take it as something else.

None of them agree on the origin of the universe or, indeed, The Universe, yet they also don't disagree. When pressed, they change the subject or say that I can't understand the answer because I don't believe as they do. That sounds like a circular visit to cop-out city, frankly.

So, your point is well made, JB. But please understand that when some of us ask "but what does that mean?" perhaps it could be better phrased as "well, what does that mean to you ?" Perhaps you can't answer, then do say so, but that would just get me asking "OK, then, how did you get there?" because I still won't know what you mean, and I'm trying to understand your meaning, and not assume it's the view of someone who is sitting crossed-legged on the floor, surrounded by joss sticks, and talking to a rock.

Above, you is a hypothetical poster, it's not referring to the JB you.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: nogodsforme on July 21, 2013, 05:20:48 PM
We have a disconnect, I think, because many non-atheists (what do you call all the various kinds of god/spirit/religious believers?) say they "know" stuff that they cannot possibly. They feel a certain way about something and interpret that as knowledge. But that is not the kind of knowledge you can transmit to anyone else.

For example, I like the colors red and orange better than gray and purple. I cannot explain why I feel what I do about these different colors. I just do. It is not objective, although you could map how my brain responds to these colors and even maybe discover some psychological reasons for my preferences. I would never say that red and orange are better than gray and purple, or that something is wrong with people who prefer different colors.

It seems to me that non-atheists are talking about things that do have factual basis, like the origins of the earth and why people get sick, as if it is the same as color preferences: "I don't know why, but I feel that there must be something out there. And that something made everything in the universe, except the bad stuff. It loves us, cares about us and wants us to worship it."

Well, it would be nice if there was some evidence for any of that. And, besides the nice feelings we get when looking at puppies and rainbows (ignoring the bad feelings we get from seeing tornadoes and face-eating bacteria) you know this how? Just from hoping and wishing it was so?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Mooby on July 21, 2013, 05:27:35 PM
You are an exception, Mooby.
I get this response quite often when I call out atheists who make negative generalizations about Christianity.  It seems I am posting in the state of exception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giorgio_Agamben#State_of_Exception_.282005.29).  I wonder if this makes this site's atheists sovereign?  That would explain a lot, actually...

Regardless, I have far too often seen internet atheists insist on buying the fake and selling what's real in discussions with Christians (I've even had atheists tell me that if I'm a Christian I must necessarily be a Young Earth Creationist, despite YECs being a minority of Christians.)  Perhaps it's easier to melt plastic than metal.  Sometimes I think this site is a microcosm of a Buggles song.

And that isn't even me being convoluted.  Pic unrelated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3Ecs07in7U

Quote
Since your answers don't have any more basis in reality than the others, they have to be guesses based on how you interpret the bible, right?
No.  Basing one's theology on one's own interpretation of the Bible is a product of the Protestant Reformation, and I am not a Protestant.

Quote
How do you know that you are right?
I don't.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: nogodsforme on July 21, 2013, 06:29:15 PM
I would not try to tell you what you believe or what kind of Christian you are. What makes you the exception is that you have a linear, logical way of presenting yourself that many theists I have encountered lack.  You tend to say what you mean, and try not to say more or less than that.  Like I said before, Mooby, you give direct and straightforward answers free of excess mystical woo.

But it is still not clear what you mean by your " theology",  where it comes from if not the bible, or why exactly you believe your religion is true.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Mooby on July 21, 2013, 06:31:28 PM
Is this the thread to get into those things?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on July 21, 2013, 07:12:52 PM

For example: "What colour is your car?"
Quote
My car isn't red, its a mystery.

I once had a car who's color was "bondo."
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: SkyWriting on July 22, 2013, 05:14:20 AM
You were born into a world where God does not walk.
Does not walk but can walk?  Or absolutely can't walk?I thought this God is Almighty  :? What a pathetic God full of quirky foibles - like self-limiting Himself to just the one Son as well.It's all nonsense folks  :police: - and theists are making it up as they go along  &)

In that post I said " This fits your observations to a tee."
Now if you can SUPPORT other observations, do so.
Because your evaluation of reality lacks.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: junebug72 on July 22, 2013, 06:08:44 AM
I hear you, junebug. You are very frustrated with the responses that you get from some people on this board. Your final sentence is the source of the problem: "there are no direct answers".

If that is so, then there is not much that religious, god-believers or theists of whatever stripe can say to us. They all should stop telling us that we like sinning or just don't understand reality or hate god, or are stupid or arrogant or going to hell, etc. They should stop preaching and proselytizing. They should stop passing laws that discriminate against us. Because if there are no direct answers to our questions, there can't be any wrong answers, either.

We are as right as you are--maybe more right than you are because we at least have scientific facts and observed reality on our side instead of fleeting personal feelings, ancient magic stories and superstitions that can't be true.

When societies base their policies on gods, magic and feelings, people live until 45 and die of easily preventable causes. When societies apply rational science and reality-based ideas, everyone is far better off. We have the global evidence to prove it--just compare life in "godless" Japan or Sweden to life in god-heavy Bangladesh or Afghanistan.

So, we are pretty darn frustrated, too. Most of the progress that human beings have achieved is because some people were brave enough to ignore the ancient magic books and superstitions. We have to live in a world where the answers to many of the world's problems are clear, but we are surrounded by people who say, "there are no direct answers".

But who still benefit every day from the direct answers produced by people like us. :P

Frustrated is not the word I would use, sad is. 

More right than me.  This may be so.  I believe the same things you do plus God.  Why?  Because I feel my spirit inside.  Life is too precious/complex.

Magic=A great big planet full of life from an explosion.

There is a difference between "direct" answers and "no" answers.  My point was some questions on this topic can not be answered directly.  It takes a more philosophical answer.

I get the point of the OP.  I really do.  I wish people didn't believe some of the stuff they do. 

To change their minds, I believe it will take kindness and empathy. Love.   
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on July 22, 2013, 07:54:46 AM
Is this the thread to get into those things?

Mmm.  Possibly not.  But, then again, I guess it will be hard for anyone to counter my question without us getting into a discussion of their faith in order that they can then demonstrate the direct answers to the questions being asked.

With that in mind.....I wonder what will be the answers to my next post?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on July 22, 2013, 07:57:10 AM
If there was a truly good and godly god, it would be clear.  No nagging doubts, no endless arguments.  It would be clear and obvious to all.  The fact that it isn't may not necessarily mean there isn't a god out there.  But it sure makes it clear that there is something seriously wrong with the picture.

You hit the nail on the head.
1. God walked with Adam in the Garden.
2. Adam was removed from the Garden and the gateway was set with guards.
3. You were born outside of the garden where God walked.

You were born into a world where God does not walk.  Setting up a communication
channel is hard work, mentally speaking.  This fits your observations to a tee.

Unfortunately, none of that gels with a god who - we are told - (a) loves us, and (b) desperately wants a relationship with him.  Anyone I want a relationship with, I will not kick out of my house and set guards on the door for starters. 

But more importantly - and I hate to break this to you - but I am talking about a GOD.  Not someone with a couple superpowers and a nifty hat, but a GOD.  A being who is above all the petty laws of existence, a being for whom reality conforms to his wishes.  Such a being would be so clear, so obvious, that there would be no argument.  Such being could - if it chose - be in constant communication, simultaneously, with every being in its creation.

You are describing the original creation as the scriptures tell it.  Then then came a time where
man was banished from the garden and guards were stationed at the gate.  Anyone born after that was born into a sin world.  Sin is separation from God, so the two cannot be the same.

Sorry, not understanding your point.  Perhaps you could clarify a couple things?

Does your god desire a relationship with me?
Is your god capable of altering reality at will?
Is "sin" a state of being that your god is incapable of ....defeating, for want of a better word?  Are you saying that sin is something like BO, that your god abhors so much that he simply cannot get close enough to us while we have it?  Apoologies for that analogy, I'm trying to grok what you are saying.

I was suggesting that for a GOD (as I would understand a god), who wants a relationship with me (as I would understand a relationship), there would be no barriers, no problems.  We would be having a 2-way conversation as and when, as easy as if I had his personal mobile number.  My suggestion is clearly NOT the case, so I am trying to understand why.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: junebug72 on July 22, 2013, 08:06:37 AM
^Indeed.  Junebug, you have to remember that people like Anfauglir have been dealing with theists who have stated that they know "the truth" for years.  Yet they haven't actually been able to articulate any details about that truth, anything that would support it.  Indeed, when they try, it degenerates into a mess of beliefs, rationalizations, and subjective feelings.

But you'd be wrong to call them "believer haters".  I get some of that from a person who I argue with in comment threads relating to the local newspaper - he keeps saying I hate him because I strongly disagree with what he says, disapprove of much of it, and get frustrated with his intransigence.  To him, the mere fact that I disagree, disapprove, and get frustrated 'proves' that I hate him - he takes my comments and attributes a personal spin to them, which he interprets as hatred.  That sounds an awful lot like what you're saying about Anfauglir and others.

Now Jaime I don't put you in the believer hater category.  I have not gotten that impression from everybody here.  I have, however, gotten it from some.  Just look at some of the ridiculous thumbs down Darwins I've received. 

I know it's not easy to love someone who thinks you're a sinner condemned to hell but that is what it will take to change the world; LOVE.  It will take LOVE and a whole lot of it. ;)

Got Love?

Hello Anfauglir.  How have you been?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Mooby on July 22, 2013, 10:18:03 AM
Mmm.  Possibly not.  But, then again, I guess it will be hard for anyone to counter my question without us getting into a discussion of their faith in order that they can then demonstrate the direct answers to the questions being asked.
This is certainly true, and I don't mind giving a few short answers to fairly simple questions.

However, the issues nogodsforme raised are a bit more complex and my personal approach is a bit unfamiliar, especially given my relative agnosticism compared to most other Christians.  In addition, I tend to intentionally slow pace my responses for various reasons (including making it easier to reply to several people at once and/or to more easily address assumptions about my views I feel are inaccurate), so the discussion would likely become quite lengthy.

So while I'm sure you expected to have a few side discussions, I'm not as sure that you're expecting something of the scope I'm predicting.  Which is why I asked.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: nogodsforme on July 22, 2013, 04:47:42 PM
I don't expect people to give their entire life stories here. I guess my main question is how you came to decide that what you believe about god and/or religion is true. Is there a straightforward way to explain that?  :?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Mooby on July 22, 2013, 05:22:13 PM
I don't expect people to give their entire life stories here. I guess my main question is how you came to decide that what you believe about god and/or religion is true. Is there a straightforward way to explain that?  :?
Possibly.  I can give you several divergent yeses:

There, several straightforward answers, all accurate and yet self-contradictory.  Going past those will put us deep into "no" territory.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: nogodsforme on July 22, 2013, 05:38:43 PM
I have to say you made me smile with "possibly" in response to my question: Is there a straightforward way to explain [how you came to decide your beliefs were true]  :?

You managed to be straightforward and not at the same time, with one word! I have to remember that for future reference. Who says the internet isn't educational? ;)

And you did it in rhyming couplets, yet. Mooby, you are one of a kind.

If I had time I would take on #3....the rest are beyond my pay grade.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Mooby on July 22, 2013, 06:00:43 PM
If I had time I would take on #3....the rest are beyond my pay grade.
#3 is actually the most deceptively simple of the bunch.  Just ask Admiral Ackbar.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: jaimehlers on July 22, 2013, 08:31:09 PM
I've found that when I do give a simple, direct answers, atheists tend to not accept them because they're not the answers they were looking for, and they keep asking more convoluted questions to get the answer they want until the answers become convoluted as well.

When you believe and have faith - I believe and I have faith is the answer; but it is deemed unacceptable.
I quoted both because I think the context is necessary.  But here's the simplest way I can put it.  Faith is not an answer.  I don't mean that it isn't an acceptable answer, I mean that it simply isn't an answer at all.  Fundamentally, faith is an opinion, because it's impossible to prove or confirm.  Even the firmest, staunchest faith cannot prove or confirm that it is correct, and that means that it isn't an actual answer.  It can be used as an answer, just as you can answer a question with a question, but it is hardly a satisfying or acceptable one.

In essence, atheists are asking why you believe something - that is to say, what reason you have to believe it.  Saying "I believe and have faith" doesn't actually answer the question.  You're just saying that you believe and have faith that you're correct, you're not answering why you believe and have faith.  In other words, if someone is trying to get a factual answer out of you, answering with an opinion isn't going to work.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: nogodsforme on July 22, 2013, 08:45:12 PM
If I had time I would take on #3....the rest are beyond my pay grade.
#3 is actually the most deceptively simple of the bunch.  Just ask Admiral Ackbar.

Ask him what? If religion is a TRAP? :o
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Mooby on July 22, 2013, 09:08:28 PM
Faith is not an answer.  I don't mean that it isn't an acceptable answer, I mean that it simply isn't an answer at all.  Fundamentally, faith is an opinion, because it's impossible to prove or confirm.
Faith is not an opinion, at least in how religious people generally define it.  Faith is a religious synonym for "trust," specifically as it pertains to a relationship with a deity.  Thus, it is a decision.  Critics of theism tend to use the definition of "belief without evidence/proof," but this is not an accurate assessment of most believers' experiences of it.

Of course, you may very well claim that a decision made based on belief is not an acceptable answer to why that belief is held.  Which is both true and not true: it's true in that faith does not explain the source of the belief, but false in that it provides the mechanism through which that belief is held.

To me, this indicates a difference in priority rather than a failure to provide a direct answer.  As Lori points out, for the believer this is the simplest, direct, most accurate explanation - but it's not what the skeptic wants.  The skeptic wants the epistemological basis for that belief, which to most believers is self-evident.  Thus, I think that many believers only think to parse the part of the question dealing with why the belief is held, to which the simplest answer is "faith."

Quote
In essence, atheists are asking why you believe something - that is to say, what reason you have to believe it.  Saying "I believe and have faith" doesn't actually answer the question.  You're just saying that you believe and have faith that you're correct, you're not answering why you believe and have faith.  In other words, if someone is trying to get a factual answer out of you, answering with an opinion isn't going to work.
I'm not sure why you quoted me in your post, other than the fact that I objected to the OP's premise.  My answer in that quote did not mention faith, and you'll note that I preemptively ignored myself when responding to nogodsforme by not mentioning faith at all because I like breaking my own rules.

I see what you're saying about context, but it seems like your answer was more directed at Lori than me.  I didn't even have faith in mind when I made that post.  Perhaps it's because I'm a bit less forum naive than many of the theists brought in by the YouTube videos, or perhaps it's because I'm weird.  I dunno.

If I had time I would take on #3....the rest are beyond my pay grade.
#3 is actually the most deceptively simple of the bunch.  Just ask Admiral Ackbar.

Ask him what? If religion is a TRAP? :o

If #3 is a trap, obviously.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: colin040 on September 06, 2013, 02:11:49 PM
Well I just had a chat with my grandfather and uncle about religion (started with the guy who tried to convert me, I made a topic about this) and...they just can't give me a straight to the point and simple answer. I asked the same question regarding world war II

''So what if you'd have a jew hiding in your basement and nazis asked you if you kept jews here? What would be the right thing to do here?''

Grandfather: ''Save the jew ofcourse! Jesus said to help others too. It's not so much about the rules of religion. it's about the way Jesus wanted you to live your life!''

Me: ''But you also mentioned before lying IS a sin. So what is it? Also, aren't you know trusting your instinct over your religion's teaching? Don't you also think the 2 things you just mentioned quite contradict eachother here? Should the jew be helped or shouldn't you sin and be honest in this scenario? If lying is always a sin, wouldn't this be bad according to your faith?''

Granfather: ''Hmm...I don't know really. It's a hard question you know. Jesus wants you to help others!''

Or with my uncle:

Uncle: ''you see, you shouldn't take the bible literally. Also, the 10 commandments are very, very hard to live up to. I don't think people could do these days. Don't take it all from one side you know! You probably won't understand us because you don't have the christian faith in you''

Me: ''Why? not? Aren't these the rules of your religion. Also, how do you know your not suppose to take these rules literally? Aren't you now trusting your own instinct over your faith?

...And it just went on and on. My uncle told me my questions were well asked cause he along with his father just couldn't give a straight reply. Funny enough my grandfather thinks I'm just as good as a christian cause ''it's not about that, its about living a good life. You won't go to hell for that.''

Seems like they make their own versions up of their faith and just decide what to agree with and how.

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Greatest I am on September 06, 2013, 05:58:58 PM
Christians do not answer well because they have to try to hide the fact that they have a double standard of morality. One for God who somehow is forgiven for doing things that believers say is evil if done by men.

That is quite sick on their part.

Regards
DL
 
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: nogodsforme on September 06, 2013, 10:43:26 PM
They can't explain another problem-- why they don't accept the exact same arguments they use when they come from believers in other religions.

Like, if you accept the miracles in the bible, why not believe the supernatural magic in the Quran or the Gita? Why believe in healings, but only if they are attributed to the Christian god? Can all those Hindu and Muslim healings be false? There is the same amount of factual evidence for all of it, ie none. So on what basis can you believe that Jesus actually rose from the dead, but that Muhammed never rode a white horse to the moon?  :?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Betelnut on September 07, 2013, 12:31:59 AM
I think it is because a vast majority of believers haven't really examined their beliefs therefore, if pressed, they are not able to articulate the what/how/who/why of it all.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Nam on September 07, 2013, 12:41:32 AM
They can't explain another problem-- why they don't accept the exact same arguments they use when they come from believers in other religions.

Like, if you accept the miracles in the bible, why not believe the supernatural magic in the Quran or the Gita? Why believe in healings, but only if they are attributed to the Christian god? Can all those Hindu and Muslim healings be false? There is the same amount of factual evidence for all of it, ie none. So on what basis can you believe that Jesus actually rose from the dead, but that Muhammed never rode a white horse to the moon?  :?

Doesn't the bible say somewhere about false gods? So, wouldn't their religions be false, too?

-Nam
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Greatest I am on September 07, 2013, 04:18:20 PM
I think it is because a vast majority of believers haven't really examined their beliefs therefore, if pressed, they are not able to articulate the what/how/who/why of it all.

Exactly. They do not follow their religions at all. They follow tradition and culture first and the religion is just an add on.

Few people, when push comes to shove, are stupid enough to believe in talking animals or 70 virgins waiting for us in heaven regardless of what they say.

Regards
DL

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on September 08, 2013, 01:21:12 AM
Just to reiterate, the original questions wasn't "why are believers incapable of being direct" (although that IS a side issue!), but rather:

"Why does the nature of an allegedly good god require so much apologetic twisting to describe?  Surely a truly good god would enable direct and definite answers on all aspects of itself?"
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Greatest I am on September 08, 2013, 09:44:59 AM
Because the nature of God is said to be unfathomable yet those in religion are always talking about what they fathom of a God whom they also say is unfathomable.

IOW. Believers want us to believe B. S. that cannot ever be proven to be true.

Regards
DL

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Add Homonym on September 08, 2013, 10:08:31 AM
''But you also mentioned before lying IS a sin. So what is it?

Just a technical point.

Is lying a sin? The law is about bearing false witness, which is a court/perjury issue. It's a sin for people to conspire against another to convict them of something. However, it's not mentioned in any other context. So, it's OK to lie your arse off, as long as you are not in court.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: bertatberts on September 09, 2013, 05:41:00 AM
When you lie, you are bearing (giving) false witness.

If you took something, but said you didn't when asked, then you are giving a false testimony, or false witness, about yourself. if you do it about another person you are giving a false testimony, or false witness, about them.  So bearing false witness whatever way you swing it, is lying.
Yet it only becomes a sin if you are of a religious persuasion.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Greatest I am on September 09, 2013, 10:19:54 AM
''But you also mentioned before lying IS a sin. So what is it?

Just a technical point.

Is lying a sin? The law is about bearing false witness, which is a court/perjury issue. It's a sin for people to conspire against another to convict them of something. However, it's not mentioned in any other context. So, it's OK to lie your arse off, as long as you are not in court.

Rather a crappy moral position.

Should the labelling of something as a lie or not, not depend on whether harm is intended or not?

If I tell my wife I like the crappy tie she bought me for Xmas, there is not harm or malice intended and I would not call that a lie.

If I tell my wife something is safe knowing she will hurt herself because of what I said, then that is definitely a lie.

You might want to educate yourself on the base of our common law. The Latin term, mens rea.

It basically determines if person is guilty of a sin or crime that has been committed.

Regards.
DL
 
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on September 09, 2013, 10:54:22 AM
If there was a truly good and godly god, it would be clear.  No nagging doubts, no endless arguments....

I saw a sign outside a church the other day; it read:  "Feed your faith, and your doubts will starve to death".  To the theist/believer, this adage sounds good, makes sense, and something to strive for.  Unfortunately, they do so with the false idea that "faith" is a good thing.  I think that a good working definition for faith is: "The effort to believe that which you know is not true".

And added to that, they feel that doubt is a bad thing, when in fact (as other adages suggest):

"Modest doubt is the beacon of the wise"

"Doubt is the mother of all knowledge."


"Feed your credulousness, your ability to notice that our pronouncements don't match with facts will starve to death"
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: nogodsforme on September 09, 2013, 02:37:16 PM
Church signs are the worst (best?) examples of illogical nonsense. They drive me bonkers. Fortune cookies make more sense. &)
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: harbinger77 on December 31, 2013, 12:22:13 AM
I was directed here by Andy S. He wanted me to read the question in post #1.

I don't want to read ALL of this. I read randomly, and was not able to answer my own question.

Has any theist of any type ever tried to answer the original question of this thread?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Mooby on December 31, 2013, 12:31:18 AM
No, because the question in the subject and the only question in the OP are both loaded questions. A few of us have responded with various comments about why we reject the loaded questions. 
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: harbinger77 on December 31, 2013, 12:50:35 AM
I don't expect people to give their entire life stories here. I guess my main question is how you came to decide that what you believe about god and/or religion is true. Is there a straightforward way to explain that?  :?

Good question... Is this general "I believe in God" or is it specific "I am a Christian" (insert chosen faith) or both?
I can say yes, but it takes time to walk you there. I can also say no because to walk you there requires that you believe or at least don't totally dismiss the supernatural. That's where I started. Actually I started as a young teen on the other side. witchcraft and things like that just for fun, but that's my starting point.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 31, 2013, 01:34:16 AM
I guess my main question is how you came to decide that what you believe about god and/or religion is true. Is there a straightforward way to explain that?

Good question... Is this general "I believe in God" or is it specific "I am a Christian" (insert chosen faith) or both?
I can say yes, but it takes time to walk you there. I can also say no because to walk you there requires that you believe or at least don't totally dismiss the supernatural. That's where I started. Actually I started as a young teen on the other side. witchcraft and things like that just for fun, but that's my starting point.

Holy shit, you quite literally PERSONIFIED the thread name.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: harbinger77 on December 31, 2013, 02:06:45 AM
I guess my main question is how you came to decide that what you believe about god and/or religion is true. Is there a straightforward way to explain that?

Good question... Is this general "I believe in God" or is it specific "I am a Christian" (insert chosen faith) or both?
I can say yes, but it takes time to walk you there. I can also say no because to walk you there requires that you believe or at least don't totally dismiss the supernatural. That's where I started. Actually I started as a young teen on the other side. witchcraft and things like that just for fun, but that's my starting point.

Holy shit, you quite literally PERSONIFIED the thread name.

may I submit this as exhibit A as to why it's so hard to answer questions of any sort theist to atheist on this site?

for me to answer the question requires I know where to start. I'm trying to get a clear understanding of that. At least be sure I'm understanding the question correctly.
To walk you there also requires I ask questions too. it can't be one sided. I think this is a general road block too. Am I not allowed to ask you questions to help me respond to your questions? Especially one so general?

 on a side note...
literally personified??  Really??
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 31, 2013, 02:16:36 AM
Mate, the question must be answerable, otherwise you would not be a theist.

Quote
How did you come to decide that what you believe about god and/or religion is true?

If you cannot answer the simple direct question, your belief in god must be false.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on December 31, 2013, 06:44:31 AM
.....the question in the subject and the only question in the OP are both loaded questions. A few of us have responded with various comments about why we reject the loaded questions.

Just to reiterate, the original questions wasn't "why are believers incapable of being direct" (although that IS a side issue!), but rather:

"Why does the nature of an allegedly good god require so much apologetic twisting to describe?  Surely a truly good god would enable direct and definite answers on all aspects of itself?"

Mooby does indeed tend to give direct answers to questions.  But I have to say that my current experiences with four believers (Skeptic, Gzusfreke, Harbinger, and Charlie) has been much the opposite.  Gzusfreke tends to resort to the "well, its spiritual so there is no way you would understand" (rather than actually try to help me understand).  Skeptic and Charlie seem to simply flat out ignore any direct question I ask.

But as I said: the point I was more interested in (which I agree was not best phrased in the thread title) is why - given such a loving and all-round GOOD god - there is in general such an inability to present satisfactory answers.  Especially since a straightforward and clear answer could potentially lead people back to god.

Case in Point: In this thread, middle of page 3, I asked SkyWriting 3 direct questions, followed by what I thought was a succint explanation of why I was asking them.  Two questions, if not three, were potentially answerable with a firm "yes" or "no" (though with the 2nd and 3rd I would expect could require some explanation).  I got no response at all.  And my experience in the forum continues to be of responses that skirt around the questions asked, or flat out ignore them.  But again - I will go back out there and see what happens.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: OldChurchGuy on December 31, 2013, 09:24:02 AM
I find this over and over again on this forum - what seems to be the simplest and directest question takes pages and pages of dodging and backsliding and ignoring until - maybe - you finally get an answer.

I'm sure there is a lot of discussion to be had about the psychology of it all, but I'm interested in a different question.

If there IS a god out there, and that god is as just and right and GOOD as most believers would have us believe - then why is all the dodging necessary in the first place?  Surely a god so good, so perfect, so right, would lead to discussions along the lines of:

Anfauglir: Can you explain why your god.....
Believer: (firmly) Yes.  It is because.....(specific and direct answer).
Anfauglir:  Ah, I see - that makes perfect sense.  Thank you.

Now THAT kind of god - the one where there was no need to dodge, no need to prevaricate, no need to shy away from "awkward" questions......THAT is a god that I could really get behind.  But these gods who are so tricksy, so convoluted, so demonstrative of so many negative behaviours that their believers have to dodge the questions and go into such lengthy apologetics......well, there just seems something suspicious about it all.

A truly good, truly godly god, would be very unlikely to raise any of these questions in the first place.  And it certainly wouldn't require the degree of evasion and goal-post shifting that we see so much of on these forums. 

If there was a truly good and godly god, it would be clear.  No nagging doubts, no endless arguments.  It would be clear and obvious to all.  The fact that it isn't may not necessarily mean there isn't a god out there.  But it sure makes it clear that there is something seriously wrong with the picture.

I speak only for myself as I lack the knowledge to speak for other theists. 

It would be wonderful if there were any religious text which was written similar to a computer programming manual.  And it would be even more wonderful if there were a way to conjure up an entity at will which could be observed, measured, communicated with and agreed upon as God. 

Unfortunately, theism, by it's very nature, is subjective.  Asking for objective reasoning to a very subjective topic is extremely difficult.  The best I can do is present theories and views which make sense to me.  But I have no way of being able to prove my views in a way which meets the criteria for this website. 

I do appreciate your tolerance for my theism and allowing me to participate on this website.  As I've written before, you have helped me distill just what I do believe and why.  For that, I am most grateful.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on December 31, 2013, 10:06:13 AM
It would be wonderful if there were any religious text which was written similar to a computer programming manual.  And it would be even more wonderful if there were a way to conjure up an entity at will which could be observed, measured, communicated with and agreed upon as God. 

Unfortunately, theism, by it's very nature, is subjective.  Asking for objective reasoning to a very subjective topic is extremely difficult.  The best I can do is present theories and views which make sense to me.  But I have no way of being able to prove my views in a way which meets the criteria for this website. 

I think that's the thing though - you're quite right, theism IS subjective, and I do have sympathy for believers who struggle to explain their views (or, perhaps I should say, the views of their god).  I would for example have a similar problem explaining why I felt that my favourite sport was better than your favourite sport, precisely because it is subjective.

But that's the point that I really don't get - because it a particular brand of theism is correct, then that means that there IS a god behind it all, a being that can think so much more clearly than any of us, forsee all the potential problems and issues that would arise, and (one would think) be able to anticipate them all and deal with them in advance. 

That's the rub of my question, really.  Not "why are theists not good enough debaters to convince me", but "why did The God not provide such clear arguments that there would be no debate in the first place".  I simply can't reconcile a Good God with a being that would countenance such ongoing and widespread confusion.

- - - -

Additional thought for consideration.  Assume that we die (I think that's a safe assumption!) and we finally come face to face with The God, whoever it may be.  Will that god be able to provide clear and comprehensive answers to all the questions we may have?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: OldChurchGuy on December 31, 2013, 10:32:38 AM
Quote

I think that's the thing though - you're quite right, theism IS subjective, and I do have sympathy for believers who struggle to explain their views (or, perhaps I should say, the views of their god).  I would for example have a similar problem explaining why I felt that my favourite sport was better than your favourite sport, precisely because it is subjective.

But that's the point that I really don't get - because it a particular brand of theism is correct, then that means that there IS a god behind it all, a being that can think so much more clearly than any of us, forsee all the potential problems and issues that would arise, and (one would think) be able to anticipate them all and deal with them in advance. 

That's the rub of my question, really.  Not "why are theists not good enough debaters to convince me", but "why did The God not provide such clear arguments that there would be no debate in the first place".  I simply can't reconcile a Good God with a being that would countenance such ongoing and widespread confusion.

- - - -

Additional thought for consideration.  Assume that we die (I think that's a safe assumption!) and we finally come face to face with The God, whoever it may be.  Will that god be able to provide clear and comprehensive answers to all the questions we may have?

Regarding the first question as to why God didn't provide the clear arguments so there would be no debate in the first place, I have no idea. 

Regarding the second question about God providing clear and comprehensive answers to all the questions we may have, I really truly hope so. 

As always,

OldChurchGuy
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: lotanddaughters on December 31, 2013, 11:26:13 AM
I think it's because that, deep down, theists know their god is a bunch of BS. Same reason they avoid going to heaven at all costs by, for example, looking at both sides of the street before crossing it, taking antibiotics (based on the theory of evolution, if I might add). In fact, the theists who act as if they actually believed what they claim to believe are few. Those are the ones that make the news by letting their kids die instead of getting medical help.

I disagree.  I firmly believed what I believed until I stopped.  And I acted as if I believed.  I don't act any different now.  I have the same core values.  I just don't expect any god to help me.

Well, one thing interesting about my Christianity is that I remember pretty much every instance where I encountered someone saying, "I don't believe any of that God or Devil stuff". Once in a blue moon, someone would say something like that, and it made me feel uncomfortable because they had good reason not to believe in supposed invisible things. I never actually paused and thought, "Wow, I feel uncomfortable", but these occurrences made enough of an impression that I remember them to this day. Looking back, I admit to myself that I was uncomfortable. I immediately latched on to the word "uncomfortable" when it was offered to me by the YouTube video "10 Questions That Every Intelligent Christian Must Answer", years later.

As far as becoming an atheist, the only memories I have concerning my gradual deconversion are ones of me telling people "I'm not sure there is a God" or something like that.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 31, 2013, 11:31:15 AM
Surely someone here finds harbinger ironic for doing what the thread says theists do?

Right?...

Right!!!?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: lotanddaughters on December 31, 2013, 11:43:14 AM
That's the rub of my question, really.  Not "why are theists not good enough debaters to convince me", but "why did The God not provide such clear arguments that there would be no debate in the first place".  I simply can't reconcile a Good God with a being that would countenance such ongoing and widespread confusion.
Right.

Or, "Why is it, when many different ancient humans create mostly not-so-well-thought-out fairy tales and rules, that the humans who are defending this defenseless nonsense can't reach a solid consensus that makes sense to every adult who isn't mentally handicapped?"

Nevermind. This is the type of question that answers itself.



Here's a better one:

"How come the only explanations about these texts that make complete sense are explanations provided by people who don't believe the stories in these texts?"






Additional thought for consideration.  Assume that we die (I think that's a safe assumption!) and we finally come face to face with The God, whoever it may be.  Will that god be able to provide clear and comprehensive answers to all the questions we may have?
I liked this.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Mooby on December 31, 2013, 11:56:20 AM
But as I said: the point I was more interested in (which I agree was not best phrased in the thread title) is why - given such a loving and all-round GOOD god - there is in general such an inability to present satisfactory answers.  Especially since a straightforward and clear answer could potentially lead people back to god.
Perhaps the concept of [wiki=Sacred_mystery#Christian_mysteries]sacred mystery[/wiki] will help.

Basically, we run into a similar problem to trying to explain quantum physics to a child (or anyone, for that matter.)  We are trying to understand an infinite God who transcends the material and rational with a brain that is limited to the material and rational, and we are trying to describe concepts in discrete language that aren't really fully describable.  Much like trying to tighten a screw with a hammer, the tools we have can only do part of the job, and really can't do it all that efficiently.

So we do the best we can.  Much as with the child, we use analogies and approach the concepts from multiple different angles and tell stories connected by meandering narration until we shine enough light from enough angles that we can get the general concept passed along.  From our point of view, the set of what is understandable is quite a bit larger than the set of what is easily describable, so our major hurdle is using our limited language to get a person to the first spark of understanding, which they can use as a launching point to continue further.

At best, our limitations of language in the light of sacred mysteries means that there really aren't any discrete answers.  And if we give them, we've answered the question but not really granted the understanding.  I will frequently answer a yes/no question with a "yes" or "no," but only with the full understanding that the "yes" or "no" stands in place of a very long explanation, which means that I am knowingly allowing the questioner to obtain only a small fraction of understanding in the interest of simplicity.  Sometimes I go with "yes and no," but that answer tends to increase complexity and so it must be used judiciously.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: lotanddaughters on December 31, 2013, 12:04:07 PM
Additional thought for consideration.  Assume that we die (I think that's a safe assumption!) and we finally come face to face with The God, whoever it may be.  Will that god be able to provide clear and comprehensive answers to all the questions we may have?


I liked this because the whole "You will find out at a later time how it all makes sense" canard is used in countless bullshit scams. I guess, using philosophical thought that leaves open any and every possibility, that there is an unprovable chance that it could be true, but you usually live your life by going with what is extremely and even ridiculously more probable.


As I think Robert M. Price once said, "What else have you got?" 
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Star Stuff on December 31, 2013, 12:17:39 PM

Basically, we run into a similar problem to trying to explain quantum physics to a child (or anyone, for that matter.)  We are trying to understand an infinite God who transcends the material and rational with a brain that is limited to the material and rational, and we are trying to describe concepts in discrete language that aren't really fully describable.  Much like trying to tighten a screw with a hammer, the tools we have can only do part of the job, and really can't do it all that efficiently.

So we do the best we can.  Much as with the child, we use analogies and approach the concepts from multiple different angles and tell stories connected by meandering narration until we shine enough light from enough angles that we can get the general concept passed along.  From our point of view, the set of what is understandable is quite a bit larger than the set of what is easily describable, so our major hurdle is using our limited language to get a person to the first spark of understanding, which they can use as a launching point to continue further.

At best, our limitations of language in the light of sacred mysteries means that there really aren't any discrete answers.  And if we give them, we've answered the question but not really granted the understanding.  I will frequently answer a yes/no question with a "yes" or "no," but only with the full understanding that the "yes" or "no" stands in place of a very long explanation, which means that I am knowingly allowing the questioner to obtain only a small fraction of understanding in the interest of simplicity.  Sometimes I go with "yes and no," but that answer tends to increase complexity and so it must be used judiciously.

Presupposition defined.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: lotanddaughters on December 31, 2013, 12:31:42 PM
But as I said: the point I was more interested in (which I agree was not best phrased in the thread title) is why - given such a loving and all-round GOOD god - there is in general such an inability to present satisfactory answers.  Especially since a straightforward and clear answer could potentially lead people back to god.
Perhaps the concept of [wiki=Sacred_mystery#Christian_mysteries]sacred mystery[/wiki] will help.

Basically, we run into a similar problem to trying to explain quantum physics to a child (or anyone, for that matter.)  We are trying to understand an infinite God who transcends the material and rational with a brain that is limited to the material and rational, and we are trying to describe concepts in discrete language that aren't really fully describable.  Much like trying to tighten a screw with a hammer, the tools we have can only do part of the job, and really can't do it all that efficiently.

So we do the best we can.  Much as with the child, we use analogies and approach the concepts from multiple different angles and tell stories connected by meandering narration until we shine enough light from enough angles that we can get the general concept passed along.  From our point of view, the set of what is understandable is quite a bit larger than the set of what is easily describable, so our major hurdle is using our limited language to get a person to the first spark of understanding, which they can use as a launching point to continue further.

At best, our limitations of language in the light of sacred mysteries means that there really aren't any discrete answers.  And if we give them, we've answered the question but not really granted the understanding.  I will frequently answer a yes/no question with a "yes" or "no," but only with the full understanding that the "yes" or "no" stands in place of a very long explanation, which means that I am knowingly allowing the questioner to obtain only a small fraction of understanding in the interest of simplicity.  Sometimes I go with "yes and no," but that answer tends to increase complexity and so it must be used judiciously.

Or, this is a believer's best attempt at trying to place their fairy-tale God out of scrutiny's reach.


Once again, what's more probable, an ancient flood myth that is full of holes, or a real God who allows it to seem to the more educated and intellectual that it's just an ancient flood myth full of holes?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on December 31, 2013, 02:06:15 PM
But as I said: the point I was more interested in (which I agree was not best phrased in the thread title) is why - given such a loving and all-round GOOD god - there is in general such an inability to present satisfactory answers.  Especially since a straightforward and clear answer could potentially lead people back to god.
Perhaps the concept of [wiki=Sacred_mystery#Christian_mysteries]sacred mystery[/wiki] will help.

Basically, we run into a similar problem to trying to explain quantum physics to a child (or anyone, for that matter.)  We are trying to understand an infinite God who transcends the material and rational with a brain that is limited to the material and rational, and we are trying to describe concepts in discrete language that aren't really fully describable.  Much like trying to tighten a screw with a hammer, the tools we have can only do part of the job, and really can't do it all that efficiently.

So we do the best we can.  Much as with the child, we use analogies and approach the concepts from multiple different angles and tell stories connected by meandering narration until we shine enough light from enough angles that we can get the general concept passed along.  From our point of view, the set of what is understandable is quite a bit larger than the set of what is easily describable, so our major hurdle is using our limited language to get a person to the first spark of understanding, which they can use as a launching point to continue further.

At best, our limitations of language in the light of sacred mysteries means that there really aren't any discrete answers.  And if we give them, we've answered the question but not really granted the understanding.  I will frequently answer a yes/no question with a "yes" or "no," but only with the full understanding that the "yes" or "no" stands in place of a very long explanation, which means that I am knowingly allowing the questioner to obtain only a small fraction of understanding in the interest of simplicity.  Sometimes I go with "yes and no," but that answer tends to increase complexity and so it must be used judiciously.

No I reject you "sacred mystery" as the mystery of why the Emperor's clothes are so lightweight. Lightweight as your argument.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Mooby on December 31, 2013, 02:14:56 PM
Or, this is a believer's best attempt at trying to place their fairy-tale God out of scrutiny's reach.
Contrary to what you may wish to believe, my beliefs are not fundamentally based on what I think you will find difficult to scrutinize. They're based on what I think is true.


Quote
Once again, what's more probable, an ancient flood myth that is full of holes, or a real God who allows it to seem to the more educated and intellectual that it's just an ancient flood myth full of holes?
I'm not sure what you're referring to, as I think there is a lot of theological value in the Biblical flood myth. So from where I stand, your dichotomy appears false.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Mooby on December 31, 2013, 02:16:13 PM
No I reject you "sacred mystery" as the mystery of why the Emperor's clothes are so lightweight. Lightweight as your argument.
I didn't make an argument, and you did not offer a refutation.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: lotanddaughters on December 31, 2013, 08:06:44 PM
Additional thought for consideration.  Assume that we die (I think that's a safe assumption!) and we finally come face to face with The God, whoever it may be.  Will that god be able to provide clear and comprehensive answers to all the questions we may have?


I liked this because the whole "You will find out at a later time how it all makes sense" canard is used in countless bullshit scams. I guess, using philosophical thought that leaves open any and every possibility, that there is an unprovable chance that it could be true, but you usually live your life by going with what is extremely and even ridiculously more probable.


As I think Robert M. Price once said, "What else have you got?"

I found it. He actually says, "And that's all you've got!" at about 9:25, concluding an excellent example that begins around 7:50.


http://youtu.be/_hjAxdr9wU8
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: harbinger77 on January 01, 2014, 02:55:22 AM
I think the answer is rather simple and not one most Christians would be willing to admit. I can't speak for all churches as some individually are better than others. I would say the same for Christians as individuals as well. but I will dump a little on today's evangelism as a whole though.

We are commanded to go forth and make disciples. Also to go forth and proclaim the gospel. To actually become teachers and preachers. NOT to make converts. Today's Evangelicals most typically are interested in getting you as the non-believer to say the "sinners prayer" conversion minded. It's tradition. It's unbiblical. The focus is on the front end. Once you say the sinners prayer that's it. The evangelist is gone never having made a disciple. I guess they assume someone else will take you under their wing and teach you. The problem is most everyone assumes someone else can or will do it. Maybe the "more mature" believer doesn't feel adequate for the task. Either way discipleship is not happening the way it should! The blame is squarely placed on our churches and those who will not do their duty. You end up with Christians that sometimes don't know the answers or are scrambling with what little knowledge they do have. When you add to this a hodgepodge of religious knowledge consisting of most every denomination sometimes mixed in the same post from the atheist it gets hard to weed out and answer the question. I also feel there are some who are more interested in the argument than the answer.

I think for me more often than not I get distracted by some crazy comment and before you know it we're on a whole separate topic never having truly addressed the first topic, and it became an argument rather than discussion. It is hard to answer a question though when you're being pulled in so many directions at once.

The question is are we identifying problems only, or offering solutions as well? Maybe the best solution is we (theist and non) meet for private discussion. As those tend to stay on course. If you are truly interested in asking a question and being sure to get an answer my inbox is always open. I hope the last line or two is something my fellow Christians can agree with also.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: wolfunchained on January 01, 2014, 04:17:50 AM
What a relevant topic for me to post in today.
I have an aquaintence who was an atheist and is now a 7da. He constantly posts stuff on facebook that appears great to believers but can actually be boardering on offensive to other denominations or atheists.

Long story short, i pointed out the old testiment is full of mental stories about killing and mass murder etc..noahs ark and the flood was my main example of gods mass murder, he claimed this story shows gods love and patience. I asked him a direct question of,how does it show those attributes??  instead of answering the questions i got an analogy story made up . Its completly typical for all big questions to be answered like that as he had no scripture to prove his theory on it. The fact is god was not patient or loving or merciful as the people who were wiped out diddnt get a right to use thier free will. God juat wiped out every human being feom exsistant bar 8 people! Surely god who created humans and knows the future could do better than making only 8 good people in the entire world!!!!!
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on January 02, 2014, 03:44:39 AM
Perhaps the concept of [wiki=Sacred_mystery#Christian_mysteries]sacred mystery[/wiki] will help.

Apologies for the delayed reply.....but no.  I don't believe it does.  I can accept the analogy of potentially having to start small with concepts - but where you may run into trouble there is that for most of my life I have been well into mythology, and role-playing gamers.  Playing Dungeons and Dragons for umpteen years, coupled with being 30 units off a degree in Psychology with Philosophy, and having been a long-term subscriber to Fortean Times, means that I won't have many problems grokking the concepts that you may want to explain. 

Perhaps we are coming at cross-purposes as to what particular questions we are talking about - because in my experience, the more I try to strive for understanding, the more I try to get clarification on particular points, the more the answer seem to become vague and shy away from the questions I was asking.  Perhaps you ARE the exception, but I have experienced to many people who just meander off - and, I have to say, too many people who play the "sacred mystery" card in a "well, you will never understand so there is no point in trying".  Which - as has been pointed out - is exactly how they sell snake-oil.

The other significant issue I have with the concept is the fact that it is apparently understandable - but not readily explainable.  While I see the potential parallel with concepts of quantum theory or whatever, I don't honestly believe they stand up.  Because what we are talking about (at least with Biblical theology) is a god who readily uses human concepts of love and mercy, and whose chief virtue was that he became human.  This is a god for whom a significant selling point is that he walked as us, lived as us, breathed as us - and so is a god who should, surely, not be too tricky to explain using human concepts. 

Or perhaps, I should say, that a god so closely linked with the human condition that, to be even slightly understood, requires such a degree of thinking that is so removed from normal human concepts, is not quite as much a friend and confidant as has been portrayed.

Final side thought: granting for a moment that the sacred mystery and understanding of what it is all about is both crucial AND requires a significant degree of training to fully grok.......can it be any real surprise that the newly formed humans in the Garden DIDN'T properly get it?  If it takes a degree of explanation and sophistry to articulate the concepts, then surely any god worthy of the name would have recognised that and not been so "one strike and you're out" as a crucial point in man's development?  But that's really off-topic.


<<edit - oops!  left a big chunka Mooby quot at the bottom!>>
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 02, 2014, 10:52:53 AM
No I reject you "sacred mystery" as the mystery of why the Emperor's clothes are so lightweight. Lightweight as your argument.
I didn't make an argument, and you did not offer a refutation.

A sacred mystery is an happy term for "It doesn't have to make sense"
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 02, 2014, 11:04:12 AM
So what conclusion have we come up with detailing why theists cannot answer a direct question?
I mean, the fact that on this very thread it has already happened shows how hilariously true the thread's name is...
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Mooby on January 02, 2014, 12:40:41 PM
I can accept the analogy of potentially having to start small with concepts - but where you may run into trouble there is that for most of my life I have been well into mythology, and role-playing gamers.  Playing Dungeons and Dragons for umpteen years, coupled with being 30 units off a degree in Psychology with Philosophy, and having been a long-term subscriber to Fortean Times, means that I won't have many problems grokking the concepts that you may want to explain.
I've played D&D and have a bachelors in philosophy, and I've found that they're not really all that similar.  There's some overlap with philosophy, but philosophy is also very much its own beast.  And even there we see a lot of the concepts given via story, dialogue, or analogy, particularly in the ancient Greek and Eastern schools.  Even if Christian theology were fully expressible via dense pose, expecting the average person to read something at Heidegger's level would likely make it quite inaccessible.

Quote
Perhaps we are coming at cross-purposes as to what particular questions we are talking about - because in my experience, the more I try to strive for understanding, the more I try to get clarification on particular points, the more the answer seem to become vague and shy away from the questions I was asking.  Perhaps you ARE the exception, but I have experienced to many people who just meander off - and, I have to say, too many people who play the "sacred mystery" card in a "well, you will never understand so there is no point in trying".  Which - as has been pointed out - is exactly how they sell snake-oil.
And alternative medicine, and whatever else.  But the analogy falls apart when you consider that the claim's truth is independent of the expertise of the person making it, and with something medical we expect the sales person to be trained as an expert.  Most of the religious are trying to share their faiths but may not have any special education on it, and thus their primary understanding is through the stories and analogies.

Part of why you may find me a bit more straightforward is I have studied a bit of the theory behind the concepts, plus I am used to the academic norm of openly displaying when I don't know something rather than succumbing to the natural human temptation to improvise with filler.  I'm far from an expert, however: MTO could crush me like a bug, and both of us would pale in comparison to an expert in the field.

Alas, I must run to work.  I have a reply in mind for the second half of your post but it will have to wait.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 02, 2014, 01:42:05 PM
So what conclusion have we come up with detailing why theists cannot answer a direct question?
I mean, the fact that on this very thread it has already happened shows how hilariously true the thread's name is...

Yes, it quite the echo of

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25312.msg566267.html#msg566267
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: OldChurchGuy on January 02, 2014, 01:51:19 PM
So what conclusion have we come up with detailing why theists cannot answer a direct question?
I mean, the fact that on this very thread it has already happened shows how hilariously true the thread's name is...

Yes, it quite the echo of

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25312.msg566267.html#msg566267

Is this concern of asking answering direct questions and not getting direct answers apply to all theists or only those who are trying to persuade you that their theological understanding is correct and, therefore, no others are valid?

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 02, 2014, 02:20:43 PM
So what conclusion have we come up with detailing why theists cannot answer a direct question?
I mean, the fact that on this very thread it has already happened shows how hilariously true the thread's name is...

Yes, it quite the echo of

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25312.msg566267.html#msg566267

Is this concern of asking answering direct questions and not getting direct answers apply to all theists or only those who are trying to persuade you that their theological understanding is correct and, therefore, no others are valid?

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy

Now I do not bother believers in their environment, such as a religious board. I think it rude.

I try to avoid it with coworkers, and only get a little agitated when the environment gets to the point that I consider it intrusive on me like pressuring me to join prayer circles...or they questioning me on my atheism(after they ask which church I attend...often with the intent of trying to get me to join theirs.)

I belong to a collaborative hobby, Lego trains..which actually tends to attract those that are quite religious and atheists in numbers out of proportion of the population. I don't bring it up there either as it would only get in the way of our mutual enjoyment and cooperation.

However, when a believer comes to an atheism board/site/newsgroup...or starts bashing non believers on a news story that mentions atheism, I expect them to concretely back up their position. I do here so aggressively in part because I regularly in my day to day stifle my tongue as a rather unliked minority, when those around me are singing the praises of what I consider mythology in full agreement day after day after day. I literally have shared the same office with 30 roughly cubes, four of which were occupied by ministers, all of which I maintain cordial relations with, except in the few instances. If you don't mind the analogy, it is like being around a bunch of people who regularly talk about how they are spell casting wizards from Harry Potter, when you thinks it is just an okay book series.

I have also not pressed on you as you are well respected, and despite our differing opinions as to cosmology you have been polite and your posts are well written. While I find your post's assertions a little less than airtight, they are amongst the best theists have to offer. I've never seen you dodge in a irritating and purposeful manner. I haven't seen you lie. I don't see you insult. When you don't know, you own up to it. Plus, your avatar makes me smile :)

So in essence, the answer is mostly yes. The concern is most pronounced and urgent in the circumstances described, however, it is still a concern about anyone theist or atheist alike, that avoids a direct question, unless it is something personal like a persons family or sex life.

 
 

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: OldChurchGuy on January 02, 2014, 02:51:24 PM
So what conclusion have we come up with detailing why theists cannot answer a direct question?
I mean, the fact that on this very thread it has already happened shows how hilariously true the thread's name is...

Yes, it quite the echo of

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25312.msg566267.html#msg566267

Is this concern of asking answering direct questions and not getting direct answers apply to all theists or only those who are trying to persuade you that their theological understanding is correct and, therefore, no others are valid?

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy

Now I do not bother believers in their environment, such as a religious board. I think it rude.

I try to avoid it with coworkers, and only get a little agitated when the environment gets to the point that I consider it intrusive on me like pressuring me to join prayer circles...or they questioning me on my atheism(after they ask which church I attend...often with the intent of trying to get me to join theirs.)

I belong to a collaborative hobby, Lego trains..which actually tends to attract those that are quite religious and atheists in numbers out of proportion of the population. I don't bring it up there either as it would only get in the way of our mutual enjoyment and cooperation.

However, when a believer comes to an atheism board/site/newsgroup...or starts bashing non believers on a news story that mentions atheism, I expect them to concretely back up their position. I do here so aggressively in part because I regularly in my day to day stifle my tongue as a rather unliked minority, when those around me are singing the praises of what I consider mythology in full agreement day after day after day. I literally have shared the same office with 30 roughly cubes, four of which were occupied by ministers, all of which I maintain cordial relations with, except in the few instances. If you don't mind the analogy, it is like being around a bunch of people who regularly talk about how they are spell casting wizards from Harry Potter, when you thinks it is just an okay book series.

I have also not pressed on you as you are well respected, and despite our differing opinions as to cosmology you have been polite and your posts are well written. While I find your post's assertions a little less than airtight, they are amongst the best theists have to offer. I've never seen you dodge in a irritating and purposeful manner. I haven't seen you lie. I don't see you insult. When you don't know, you own up to it. Plus, your avatar makes me smile :)

So in essence, the answer is mostly yes. The concern is most pronounced and urgent in the circumstances described, however, it is still a concern about anyone theist or atheist alike, that avoids a direct question, unless it is something personal like a persons family or sex life.

Your kind words are truly appreciated. 

Truth be told, your avatar of David Niven inspired me to find one and when Boris Karloff showed up, I KNEW that was the one for me. 

Egad, this discussion is turning into a mutual admiration society! 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: DVZ3 on January 02, 2014, 03:24:23 PM

"I'm sorry if this is out of place but..."


... This is why I have a difficult time dealing with the same tired defenses of the dividing of religion put up for reasons that are left up to interpretation in the end and even in the ultimate end (death).

I was "marked corrected" by a mod here for calling out a religious zealot who arrogantly defended genocide of an entire people (Sorry 12 Monkeys) in the name of the god/religion they were trying to defend - I started to ask "very direct" questions in "trying" to seek a somewhat direct answer to their emotional investment sort of speak.

I'm sorry if I get defensive for the obvious bullshit of others at my front door step who have proven themselves so much less than worthy now in the year 2014 let alone the year of their time of actual importance.

I'm sorry if I came off abrasive, and even aggressive in the end (I tend to get that way when someone makes genocide look like a good thing or make nothing of it because of a pretend god.... - my bad).  Doesn't know why!?  It's because they do not know what to say and there are literally NO consequences for what someone who says they believe in the bible says - LAME DUCK AGAIN..... (reference Duck Dynasty) -

"Forgive them, for they know not what they do..." comes to mind.

I'm sorry.... mom/others <insert other name here>
I was wrong.... mom/others <insert other name here>
You know what, I thought about it and you were somewhat  right... mom/others Yin/Yang makes the world go round...

You guys seem reasonable, and I like the way it makes me change the way I think about things....

Just to make these "Other" very important people in our lives feel that I'm still a person that they can love and share with others that they know.

Why do we always have to apologize for our actions in some dummified, simplified form for today's peoples!?  I know that we non-believers are considered... well evil, but that doesn't hold up on this site at least.

I'm actually tired of the being the one who needs to apologize to be honest to keep the wheel of bullshit  turning for these others who know they will become extinct with time.  Why are we the ones the ones that need to say I'm sorry to people because we love them for their false beliefs that hold back society for generations to come....

I ask the questions that  I  somewhat know the answer too already.... Rant off...

Happy "same ole" Year folks.  :-\
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Mooby on January 02, 2014, 07:37:16 PM
Ok, back to this:

Which - as has been pointed out - is exactly how they sell snake-oil.
I was trying to rush my previous post, and I feel that I left my position on why believers are different then salesmen a bit underdeveloped.  I basically just said that most theists are amateurs and that somehow excuses them from responsibility.  So let me explain a bit further.

When I meet a pharmaceutical representative selling Snake Oil Plus™, I expect them to be able to answer some pretty standard questions.  First and foremost is, of course, "What's for lunch?", but I also expect them to tell me the active ingredients, the indications, the contraindications, the risks, the benefits, the side effect profile, and show me concrete data that makes a strong argument for why I should consider using Snake Oil Plus™ in addition to or instead of Snake Oil Classic™.  Also, I expect them to provide me answers to whatever questions I may have (within reason, of course) while reviewing the information.

When I meet an average Joe who swears by Snake Oil Plus™, I expect them to tell me what they took it for and take a good stab at the name.  I'm usually happy if the exchange goes like this:
Them: I tried this great new medicine that cured my sickitis!  It's called Snake Somethingorother.  I think the second word started with a P or maybe a Z.
Me: *Googles*  Snake Oil Plus?  Snake Oil Classic?
Them: I think it was Plus?  It was a blue liquid.
Me: Oh, ok.  Yep, that looks like Snake Oil Plus.  It looks like the active ingredient is snake oil.  Hrm, I don't know that one... oh, I see it's in the reptile oil drug class.  It must have just come out.  I'll have to check later and see how it compares to the other drugs in the class.

In the latter case I must recognize that the person I am looking for is not an expert who is going to be able to quote me the detailed medical information.  They're able to give me the Average Joe explanation, which I hope is good enough to get me to where I can pick up the rest of the slack.  Many of them are not even trying to give me the medical explanation; they're just trying to tell me about the drug and what they believe it did for them.

Similarly, most of the religious are not trained theologians.  They're average theists who want to share their faith with others, and consequently most are only going to be able to answer questions to their own level of understanding or articulation.  It may be that the theist understands something but lacks the terminology to explain it properly and thus has to use a roundabout approximation, or it may be that you ask a question that they've never considered in their day-to-day faith.  It may be that they panic and decide to ass-pull or shift the topic to an area they know more about rather than put up a wall of "I don't knows." 

Whatever the case, it doesn't change the fact that the knowledge of the person telling you about Snake Oil Plus™ does not make Snake Oil Plus™ any more or less effective.  It only changes the conversation, and the expectations you are able to place on that person before you have to start looking into things on your own.

So, to get back to what I was saying before, believers sharing belief is not like selling snake oil because we expect that the snake oil is being sold top-down by someone specifically trained to do it.  By contrast, religions rely on average Joes to share enough of the message to bring others towards the faith, at which point they can start their own journey of discovery.  And so when speaking with most theists, the best you're going to get is stories, analogies, and testimonials, and if you want the real meat you'll have to go a bit deeper.

Quote
The other significant issue I have with the concept is the fact that it is apparently understandable - but not readily explainable.  While I see the potential parallel with concepts of quantum theory or whatever, I don't honestly believe they stand up.  Because what we are talking about (at least with Biblical theology) is a god who readily uses human concepts of love and mercy, and whose chief virtue was that he became human.  This is a god for whom a significant selling point is that he walked as us, lived as us, breathed as us - and so is a god who should, surely, not be too tricky to explain using human concepts. 
God does indeed use human concepts, and the basic theological truths (God created us, God loves us, etc.) are readily understandable via human conception (if not universally accepted.)  However, regardless of how much God dumbs down things for us, it doesn't change the fact that we're trying to understand the infinite with a brain that is not infinite, the immaterial with a brain that is material, the supernatural with a brain that is natural, the state of being transcendent and immanent at the same time with a brain that is only immanent, and so on.

Christianity does indeed teach that God became man.  And, if you read the Gospels, you'll see that Jesus spends most of his time teaching via analogy, metaphor, and story.  The first thing He does in Matthew and Mark is use a fishing analogy with fishermen; in Luke He starts by holding a detailed theological discussion with theologians as a child, but as an adult begins teaching by using proverbs and making analogies out of Old Testament stories.  In John He starts talking in metaphor from pretty much Day 1.

And even with teaching from God Himself, many of the average Joes had difficulty understanding.  Peter alone has to be told multiple times, yet still doesn't "get it."  Mark even subtly compares him to a blind man who first is able to see blurred shapes before being able to see fully.  And these are the guys who were witnessing the miracles first hand.

That being said, the message of Christianity is very straightforward, and is simple enough that most children can understand it.  But the message is not really what you're asking for.  You're asking for the nitty gritty details, the mechanisms, a full explanation of everything involved, including things that are necessarily beyond human investigation.  You're asking for an explanation of sacred mysteries, which are necessarily mysteries because we do not and will never have the tools to investigate them, but instead must take God's word for them at face value.

Likewise, the aspects of Christianity that are more easily understood than explained do not detract away from God's ability to make them understandable - because we do understand them.  Funnily enough, you mention that God relies on concepts such as love, which seems to me to support my view since love itself is something that is not really explainable, yet is readily understood by almost everyone.

Imagine that you somehow have no concept of love and are skeptical that such a thing even exists.  You ask someone who is trying to tell you about love to explain it to you, and they present you with these quotes (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/love_is.html), a link to Plato's Symposium (http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/symposium.html), the music video for Pat Benatar's Love Is A Battlefield, and a link to a Shakespeare sonnet archive (with reassurance that you'll "get it" after Sonnet 18.)  Heck, maybe they even link you to a psychology article on need fulfillment with an analysis of the different biochemical factors at play throughout the different stages of a relationship.

Will any of these things adequately explain what love is to the determined skeptic?  Highly doubtful.  Many of those things, particularly the quotes and the literature, are so unfocused and vague that they're likely to provide frustration to the skeptic, and the academic explanation is sufficient to describe some of the behaviors but doesn't really explain the experience of love and certainly don't provide evidence that such a force exists to the degree that it's considered a shared human experience.

For example, a couple years back (uh oh, a story, why can't he just cite a study?) my mother, who didn't really approve of my girlfriend at the time, confronted me and asked me what about her I loved.  And I of course started with the usual platitudes: "She's a good person, we share the same interests, we have a lot of the same values," which she expertly countered: "How exactly is she a good person?"  "What interests do you share?  She's a Midwestern girl in college and you're an East Coast guy in med school: you're in completely different places!"  "How on Earth do you share the same the same values?  You're a Catholic Republican and she's an atheist Democrat!"

While she was rebutting, it struck me that the reasons I were given were generic generalities that could apply to millions of people throughout the world, and that they really had nothing to do with why I loved her; they were merely the best I could put into words at the time.  The result of this, of course, was that I couldn't come up with a response, at which point she promptly decreed that I "have no idea why you like her.  Your relationship is clearly just one of convenience" and exited the room.[1] 

Was she right?  No, and I well-aware as soon as it ended that she was purposely exploiting my inability to really explain love to advance her point of view.[2]  I think some atheists may intentionally approach theists in the same way, though I'd like to think that most of the time it's not intentional. 

So no, I don't think having aspects of the faith being more experiential than intellectually explainable is a bad thing, or that it reflects badly on God or believers or whomever else.  It just means that we have to use a roundabout route to get others to the point where they might recognize them when they do experience them, and it makes it a bit harder for us to give concrete answers or answer "direct" questions.

Quote
Or perhaps, I should say, that a god so closely linked with the human condition that, to be even slightly understood, requires such a degree of thinking that is so removed from normal human concepts, is not quite as much a friend and confidant as has been portrayed.
Not slightly understood, no.  Which of the basic tenets of Christianity do you have difficulty understanding in the slightest?
 1. I had a similar comeuppance when a woman whom I had rejected as incompatible with me citing her age as too young and the desire not to have a second long-distance relationship pointed out that said girlfriend was the same age as her and long-distance (though not nearly as far.)  In other words, it was a failed attempt to translate a lack of love into concrete deal-breakers that evidently were not actually deal-breakers when love finally did appear.
 2. I ultimately won this year when said girlfriend became my fiance.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on January 02, 2014, 11:29:11 PM
Mooby,why as you describe this loving god could he have any kind of condition for his love. It is only my opinion but being that this god is a strictly human construct,he of course is subject to human weakness jealousy,anger. How can something of such higher intelligence be subject to human weaknesses?

 It is absurd such a character could be so frail and weak minded as to fall to human range of emotion.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Mooby on January 02, 2014, 11:42:03 PM
12M, I don't think God's love is conditional, and conditional love is not something I've encountered as a Christian doctrine.  So I am not the right person to answer your question.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 03, 2014, 12:01:18 AM
12M, I don't think God's love is conditional, and conditional love is not something I've encountered as a Christian doctrine.  So I am not the right person to answer your question.

If it is not conditional, it must be unconditional, correct?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Mooby on January 03, 2014, 12:08:07 AM
Yes, I believe God's love for us is unconditional.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 03, 2014, 12:31:45 AM
I have not payed attention, but what religion do you associate yourself in?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on January 03, 2014, 01:38:54 AM
12M, I don't think God's love is conditional, and conditional love is not something I've encountered as a Christian doctrine.  So I am not the right person to answer your question.
understandable,thanks...how do you wrap your head around Christians who label God as having conditions?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on January 03, 2014, 05:52:56 AM
First bit first:
Similarly, most of the religious are not trained theologians.  They're average theists who want to share their faith with others, and consequently most are only going to be able to answer questions to their own level of understanding or articulation.  It may be that the theist understands something but lacks the terminology to explain it properly and thus has to use a roundabout approximation, or it may be that you ask a question that they've never considered in their day-to-day faith.  It may be that they panic and decide to ass-pull or shift the topic to an area they know more about rather than put up a wall of "I don't knows." 

Agreed.  But it doesn't help their case at all - especially when so often they post from a position of definite authority, then go vague when pressed....then a page later are back with the definite authority.  I'm sure you can appreciate how, when theists switch like that, they perpetuate the impression that they are deliberately avoiding answering the questions posed.

So it could be that the answer to "Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?" is simply "they are unable to".  Cool.  Fine.  No worries.

But to echo something Hatter said: if they can't articulate their faith, then they should expect the brickbats and yes, even insults, when they step into our house and say "I'm right, you're wrong, and I can't prove it or even articulate I, but I'M RIGHT!!!!!"

And, I would also say, if they wish to apply any religious concept into the wider world - gay marriage, to pick an example - then I would expect the proponents to be able to not only quote a line of scripture that supports their views, but also to be able to answer damn near all of the other questions we may have about the background of their faith.

Anyhooo.....on the read the second half!
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on January 03, 2014, 06:17:16 AM
The other significant issue I have with the concept is the fact that it is apparently understandable - but not readily explainable.  While I see the potential parallel with concepts of quantum theory or whatever, I don't honestly believe they stand up.  Because what we are talking about (at least with Biblical theology) is a god who readily uses human concepts of love and mercy, and whose chief virtue was that he became human.  This is a god for whom a significant selling point is that he walked as us, lived as us, breathed as us - and so is a god who should, surely, not be too tricky to explain using human concepts. 
That being said, the message of Christianity is very straightforward, and is simple enough that most children can understand it.  But the message is not really what you're asking for.  You're asking for the nitty gritty details, the mechanisms, a full explanation of everything involved, including things that are necessarily beyond human investigation.  You're asking for an explanation of sacred mysteries, which are necessarily mysteries because we do not and will never have the tools to investigate them, but instead must take God's word for them at face value.

This, I think, is the crux.  Because "taking god's word" is exactly what I cannot do.  The whole point of the initial question in this thread is that a god that IS entirely good, would provoke very few questions at all.  What we appear to have is a god that claims goodness, but who inspires a number of questions along the "well, THIS appear bad - please explain?" fashion.  And the answer, it seems, is just to accept that there ARE answers, but that we cannot fully know or explain them.

Unfortunately, that isn't something I can do.  Nor is it something that believers of any stripe would assert in general - Christians will not accept that Ganesh is a god, to pick a random example.  But there is nothing demonstrably different to me between the two: accept that one has secret mysteries that cannot be explained, why not accept the other?

I was struck by this, which perhaps best explains where I'm coming from:

Imagine that you somehow have no concept of love and are skeptical that such a thing even exists.  You ask someone who is trying to tell you about love to explain it to you, and they present you with these quotes (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/love_is.html), a link to Plato's Symposium (http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/symposium.html), the music video for Pat Benatar's Love Is A Battlefield, and a link to a Shakespeare sonnet archive (with reassurance that you'll "get it" after Sonnet 18.)  Heck, maybe they even link you to a psychology article on need fulfillment with an analysis of the different biochemical factors at play throughout the different stages of a relationship.

Will any of these things adequately explain what love is to the determined skeptic? 

Probably not.  It might give us a "checklist" as to how to identify professed love, perhaps, depending on the detail shown.  But (although it is an analogy that had perhaps been done to death), consider an  abused woman.  She will swear to us, perhaps even believe to herself, that her partner really does "love her".  The skeptic will say "but he BEATS you - how is that love?", to which she will reply that truly he does love her.....but is unable to articulate exactly why.

This is the situation I find myself in when any ultimately unexplainable proposition is put to me.  Ultimately, it seems, it comes down to just having "trust" that the questions have answers.  That is something that I am utterly unable to do, certainly when the stakes are this high.

So no, I don't think having aspects of the faith being more experiential than intellectually explainable is a bad thing, or that it reflects badly on God or believers or whomever else.  It just means that we have to use a roundabout route to get others to the point where they might recognize them when they do experience them.

In general?  No - not a bad thing at all.  I can grok there are some things that you have to experience to fully understand.  The terror of being in a hostage situation, for example.  Turning round in supermarket and realising your six-year old is not in sight.  Being in the crowd when your country wins the World Cup Final in the 90th minute.  Bungee jumping.

There are a whole load of things where words cannot address the true feelings of a situation.  BUT, I would contend, with 99% of the questions that I am asking, I'm not talking about feelings, I'm trying to get to the facts.  (Tricky to articulate what I mean without an example).  That said though, I will take your point under advisement back out in the real forum.

In specific?  Oh my god yes.  Because rationally, I cannot accept.  Simply not something I can do.  And I have not had the experiential basis to bring me to belief - so seemingly, unless and until I do, I will not believe.  I step out the door, I am hit by a bus, I die.  I never believed, through no fault of my own.  What will or will not happen to me then, speaks a deal to me both rationally and emotionally about the ultimate answers as they pertain to everything I know about goodness and justice.

Final point, related to "they might recognize them when they do experience them".  Is there a definitive answer to this question that would allow me to differentiate between a real experience with Yahweh, and a coincidence?  Between an experience with Yahweh, and with Satan?  Between an experience with Yahweh, and with Atum?  But this is off into a whooooole other conversation, so perhaps just a point for you to consider about my position rather than to address.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Mooby on January 03, 2014, 07:57:13 AM
understandable,thanks...how do you wrap your head around Christians who label God as having conditions?
Again, it is not a sentiment I am used to hearing from Christians. With groups like Westboro I just usually write them off as fanatics.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 03, 2014, 12:24:16 PM
Love, honor and obey me or burn in hell.

Those sound like conditions to God's love me.

If he loves us all without conditions then relax boys, we all end in heaven.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Mooby on January 03, 2014, 02:31:05 PM
Love, honor and obey me or burn in hell.

Those sound like conditions to God's love me.
The latter does not follow for the former, and the former really isn't an accurate representation of my beliefs in the first place.

Quote
If he loves us all without conditions then relax boys, we all end in heaven.
So you're implying that love equates to permissiveness?  If that is indeed the case, then surely the parents who love their children the most are always the most permissive, and those who are less permissive must love their children less?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: G-Roll on January 03, 2014, 02:35:01 PM
So you're implying that love equates to permissiveness?  If that is indeed the case, then surely the parents who love their children the most are always the most permissive, and those who are less permissive must love their children less?

And that means that parents who love their children the most toss them into a lake of fire?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Star Stuff on January 03, 2014, 02:45:47 PM
And that means that parents who love their children the most toss them into a lake of fire?

......and all for not "believing", in the absence of evidence.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Mooby on January 03, 2014, 02:47:54 PM
So you're implying that love equates to permissiveness?  If that is indeed the case, then surely the parents who love their children the most are always the most permissive, and those who are less permissive must love their children less?

And that means that parents who love their children the most toss them into a lake of fire?
I don't think that's what GIA is implying.  He seems to be saying the opposite, that those who love them the most would be universally permissive, but of course he will have to clarify for us.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 03, 2014, 02:53:28 PM
So you're implying that love equates to permissiveness?  If that is indeed the case, then surely the parents who love their children the most are always the most permissive, and those who are less permissive must love their children less?

And that means that parents who love their children the most toss them into a lake of fire?
I don't think that's what GIA is implying.  He seems to be saying the opposite, that those who love them the most would be universally permissive, but of course he will have to clarify for us.

You seem having a hard time answering a direct question. I am completely unsurprised.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: G-Roll on January 03, 2014, 02:57:25 PM
So you're implying that love equates to permissiveness?  If that is indeed the case, then surely the parents who love their children the most are always the most permissive, and those who are less permissive must love their children less?

And that means that parents who love their children the most toss them into a lake of fire?
I don't think that's what GIA is implying.  He seems to be saying the opposite, that those who love them the most would be universally permissive, but of course he will have to clarify for us.

I take his post to mean that if God loves us unconditionally we need not worry about hell. After all the very concept of unconditional love involves something along the lines of not doing something as horrible as tossing someone you love unconditionally into a lake of fire.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Mooby on January 03, 2014, 03:21:27 PM
You seem having a hard time answering a direct question. I am completely unsurprised.
On the contrary, I did not find it hard at all to answer a question about what another member said by referring them back to the member who said it.

I take his post to mean that if God loves us unconditionally we need not worry about hell. After all the very concept of unconditional love involves something along the lines of not doing something as horrible as tossing someone you love unconditionally into a lake of fire.
Then you answered your own question.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 03, 2014, 03:29:03 PM
Love, honor and obey me or burn in hell.

Those sound like conditions to God's love me.
The latter does not follow for the former, and the former really isn't an accurate representation of my beliefs in the first place.

Quote
If he loves us all without conditions then relax boys, we all end in heaven.
So you're implying that love equates to permissiveness?  If that is indeed the case, then surely the parents who love their children the most are always the most permissive, and those who are less permissive must love their children less?

The only thing I imply is that if there is more than one final destination for all of us after death, then God cannot love us all unconditionally because he will only separate us for conditions unmet.

Right?

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: G-Roll on January 03, 2014, 03:33:39 PM
So you're implying that love equates to permissiveness?  If that is indeed the case, then surely the parents who love their children the most are always the most permissive, and those who are less permissive must love their children less?

And that means that parents who love their children the most toss them into a lake of fire?


I don't think that's what GIA is implying.  He seems to be saying the opposite, that those who love them the most would be universally permissive, but of course he will have to clarify for us

I take his post to mean that if God loves us unconditionally we need not worry about hell. After all the very concept of unconditional love involves something along the lines of not doing something as horrible as tossing someone you love unconditionally into a lake of fire.

Then you answered your own question.

What!?

You seem having a hard time answering a direct question. I am completely unsurprised.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Mooby on January 03, 2014, 04:07:20 PM
The only thing I imply is that if there is more than one final destination for all of us after death, then God cannot love us all unconditionally because he will only separate us for conditions unmet.

Right?
Yes, that does indeed seem to be what you are implying.  And, as I mentioned before, you have not shown how one follows from the other.



What!?
Am I to answer this direct question also?  Very well, I will repeat our transcript for you:

So you're implying that love equates to permissiveness?  If that is indeed the case, then surely the parents who love their children the most are always the most permissive, and those who are less permissive must love their children less?

And that means that parents who love their children the most toss them into a lake of fire?


I don't think that's what GIA is implying.  He seems to be saying the opposite, that those who love them the most would be universally permissive, but of course he will have to clarify for us

I take his post to mean that if God loves us unconditionally we need not worry about hell. After all the very concept of unconditional love involves something along the lines of not doing something as horrible as tossing someone you love unconditionally into a lake of fire.

Then you answered your own question.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 03, 2014, 04:35:00 PM
The only thing I imply is that if there is more than one final destination for all of us after death, then God cannot love us all unconditionally because he will only separate us for conditions unmet.

Right?
Yes, that does indeed seem to be what you are implying.  And, as I mentioned before, you have not shown how one follows from the other.

It follows quite logically that if all are equal then God would not do as scriptures say and send the vast majority to hell and just a few to heaven.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: G-Roll on January 03, 2014, 04:49:07 PM
Lol Mooby I didn’t ask GIA a question I asked you one.
This statement when applied to the God character as a parent

Quote
So you're implying that love equates to permissiveness?  If that is indeed the case, then surely the parents who love their children the most are always the most permissive, and those who are less permissive must love their children less?

Leads me to believe you feel a loving parent (God in this case) would not let their children into heaven. Rather he would throw them into a lake of fire. That is not an act of unconditional love.
My opinion of your statement that if a parent loves their child they would not be all permissive, to a point I actually find correct. However when applied to a deity and eternal reward or eternal punishment or even just burning someone alive love is not involved. To quote Forest Gump... "I'm not a smart man but I know what love is, and it is not burning someone alive." Yes he said that.

So you feel that God loves us all so much that he wouldn’t be universally permissive and allow us into heaven, rather just burn most of us alive? Is that unconditional love?

P.s. I was greatly tempted to be an asshole and repost our transcript.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Traveler on January 03, 2014, 05:45:17 PM
Mooby is very capable of answering for himself, but I can't help but jump in to say that many, many christians do not believe in a fiery hell. Some just believe that it is separation from god. To over simplify christian belief doesn't do "our side" any favors. Or, in other words, its easy and perhaps fun to argue with a fundamentalist, but to truly understand our differences, we need to discuss the subtleties as well.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 03, 2014, 06:07:51 PM
Mooby is very capable of answering for himself,

Except he avoids answering directly blunt questions, just like the title of the thread states. This was a misdirection game. If Christianity, there is either infinite reward or infinite punishment...the exact nature of the reward or punishment is just quibbling about details of an unproven, unevidenced cosmology which is why there are so many different brands of theism to begin with.





Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: G-Roll on January 03, 2014, 06:31:26 PM
Mooby is very capable of answering for himself, but I can't help but jump in to say that many, many christians do not believe in a fiery hell. Some just believe that it is separation from god. To over simplify christian belief doesn't do "our side" any favors. Or, in other words, its easy and perhaps fun to argue with a fundamentalist, but to truly understand our differences, we need to discuss the subtleties as well.

Yes traveler I am aware that some Christians do not believe in hell. Mooby can feel free at anytime to make that statement if that is what he believes. I do find it amusing though that he decided to Mr. Miagi a question rather than just answer it in a thread about theists not answering questions directly. I don’t know if it was intentional but humorous none the less.   
I also can appreciate your stance on oversimplifying another's belief. However hell is actually described all throughout the bible. Why would I assume a Christian doesn’t believe in hell when it is mentioned numerous times in their holy book? Furthermore if there is no hell where is the devil sent? If there is no devil then who brought sin into the world? If there is no sin why crucify Jesus? If you don’t crucify Jesus why be Christian at all?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Azdgari on January 03, 2014, 08:18:12 PM
So you're implying that love equates to permissiveness?  If that is indeed the case, then surely the parents who love their children the most are always the most permissive, and those who are less permissive must love their children less?

If the punishment in question is not in any way meant to correct behaviour, but instead only serves to torture, and is a terminal state with no release forever, then opting for that punishment is indeed something that only parents who "love less" would do.

I would go so far as to say that it is something only parents who hate their children would opt for.  Do you have another reason why parents might want their children to undergo such an experience?  Or would you agree that the "parent punishing children" analogy doesn't really apply?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Mooby on January 03, 2014, 08:33:09 PM
The only thing I imply is that if there is more than one final destination for all of us after death, then God cannot love us all unconditionally because he will only separate us for conditions unmet.

Right?
Yes, that does indeed seem to be what you are implying.  And, as I mentioned before, you have not shown how one follows from the other.

It follows quite logically that if all are equal then God would not do as scriptures say and send the vast majority to hell and just a few to heaven.

Regards
DL
How does loving two things equally equate to them necessarily being equal?



Lol Mooby I didn’t ask GIA a question I asked you one.
This statement when applied to the God character as a parent

Quote
So you're implying that love equates to permissiveness?  If that is indeed the case, then surely the parents who love their children the most are always the most permissive, and those who are less permissive must love their children less?
The quoted text is not a statement; it is a series of questions.

You asked me a question following from questions about someone else's statement.  Thus, the only information I had to reply with was the information on which I was basing my questions: GIA's statements.

I do find it amusing though that he decided to Mr. Miagi a question rather than just answer it in a thread about theists not answering questions directly.
Ah, but I did answer your question directly with the best information I had.  I answered the question you asked, not the question you may or may not have secretly been intending to ask.  Were I make an assumptions about the question I thought you meant to ask, I would have not been answering your question directly.

So what I find amusing is that you only think I fulfilled the topic of "Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?" because you in fact fulfilled the alternate topic of, "Why is it so hard for nonbelievers to ask a direct question?"

Quote
Leads me to believe you feel a loving parent (God in this case) would not let their children into heaven. Rather he would throw them into a lake of fire.
Then your belief is based upon faulty assumptions.

You see, you responded to my direct questions to another member by making an unsupported assumption about those questions based upon what you want to believe about my beliefs.  Then, you asked me what you thought was a direct question that, to answer, I would have to make the same faulty assumptions about my own beliefs in order to give you the answer you wanted, but the answer you wanted would not be the answer that reflects reality because the answer you wanted required both of us to make the same faulty assumptions.  So instead, I answered the question you asked quite directly, and the irony of it is that you are so far lost in your own faulty assumptions that you thought I was dodging when I failed to give you the not direct answer that you erroneously thought was direct.

I asked GIA two direct questions because I wanted more information on his position, and was patiently waiting for him to answer.  Were you to take a minute to figure out what you were responding to, you would have likely realized that my questions were only about GIA's positions and you would have either:

This course of action would have likely led you to Reply #128 words 10-23,[1] which would have given you the information necessary to ask a direct question.

But you did not give me the common courtesy of doing this, and instead you and hatter are levying accusations against me for your mistake.

And with that in mind, I think you will understand why I cannot currently respond to this:
Quote
That is not an act of unconditional love.
My opinion of your statement that if a parent loves their child they would not be all permissive, to a point I actually find correct. However when applied to a deity and eternal reward or eternal punishment or even just burning someone alive love is not involved. To quote Forest Gump... "I'm not a smart man but I know what love is, and it is not burning someone alive." Yes he said that.

So you feel that God loves us all so much that he wouldn’t be universally permissive and allow us into heaven, rather just burn most of us alive? Is that unconditional love?
as it is predicated upon those same faulty assumptions you made earlier.



If the punishment in question is not in any way meant to correct behaviour, but instead only serves to torture, and is a terminal state with no release forever, then opting for that punishment is indeed something that only parents who "love less" would do.

I would go so far as to say that it is something only parents who hate their children would opt for.  Do you have another reason why parents might want their children to undergo such an experience?  Or would you agree that the "parent punishing children" analogy doesn't really apply?
You're getting way, way ahead of what I am asking.  I am asking GIA if he is trying to imply that love equates to permissiveness.  I did not comment on anything about the quality of the punishment, nor the length, nor its escapability, nor anything else you mentioned.
 1. Not counting quotes, of course.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: G-Roll on January 04, 2014, 12:11:56 AM
The quoted text is not a statement; it is a series of questions.

You asked me a question following from questions about someone else's statement.  Thus, the only information I had to reply with was the information on which I was basing my questions: GIA's statements.
Well there you go..

Quote
Ah, but I did answer your question directly with the best information I had.
I see that now and I stand corrected my bad.

Quote
I answered the question you asked, not the question you may or may not have secretly been intending to ask.
Pfft... You don’t know anything about my secret question. I didn’t want to ask you the secret question anyway.

Quote
So what I find amusing is that you only think I fulfilled the topic of "Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?" because you in fact fulfilled the alternate topic of, "Why is it so hard for nonbelievers to ask a direct question?"
What I find amusing is that you didn’t bother to say you merely asked questions about someone else's statement. Why not just say this from the start?
In my defense if my question was anything it was direct. Based on faulty assumptions sure. But direct.

Quote
the answer you wanted, but the answer you wanted would not be the answer that reflects reality because the answer you wanted required both of us to make the same faulty assumptions.
The answer I wanted? If there was an answer I wanted you to give I would have assigned it to you and perhaps announced it if I wanted to discuss it. I wouldn’t bother asking you a question if there was an answer I wanted you to give me.

Quote
So instead, I answered the question you asked quite directly, and the irony of it is that you are so far lost in your own faulty assumptions that you thought I was dodging when I failed to give you the not direct answer that you erroneously thought was direct.
So rather than just clarifying everything you decided to play a game? Eh, well done I guess.

Quote
This course of action would have likely led you to Reply #128 words 10-23,[1] which would have given you the information necessary to ask a direct question.
I'll be damned it's right there huh? Again I apologize for my mistake. Still a simple explanation for my dumb ass could have saved you the time of typing this post.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on January 04, 2014, 03:23:24 AM
understandable,thanks...how do you wrap your head around Christians who label God as having conditions?
Again, it is not a sentiment I am used to hearing from Christians. With groups like Westboro I just usually write them off as fanatics.

Now we're all chums again.....  ;D

Taking Westboro as an example.  Suppose we challenged their views, and they were unable to articulate why they were positive that their view was correct, but insisted that it was an experiential process, and the best they could do to help us understand was to try to guide us like children towards the correct answers. 

Would there be any significant difference between Mooby saying "I reject that answer as it does not fit my experience", and Anfauglir saying "I reject Moobys answer as it does not fit with MY experience"?  And if so, what IS the difference?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 04, 2014, 12:18:12 PM
The only thing I imply is that if there is more than one final destination for all of us after death, then God cannot love us all unconditionally because he will only separate us for conditions unmet.

Right?
Yes, that does indeed seem to be what you are implying.  And, as I mentioned before, you have not shown how one follows from the other.

It follows quite logically that if all are equal then God would not do as scriptures say and send the vast majority to hell and just a few to heaven.

Regards
DL
How does loving two things equally equate to them necessarily being equal?

If you love two equally, how do you decide which to love forever and which to torture or kill?

Do you just flip a coin?

And why put so many in torture of death and so few in heaven to be loved?

At best it should be a 50 50 split yet God chooses to kill or torture the majority.

Explain please.


<<edit -fixed quotes>>
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Mooby on January 04, 2014, 08:42:02 PM
Pfft... You don’t know anything about my secret question. I didn’t want to ask you the secret question anyway.
I know everything about your secret question.  Jesus told me all about it while he was taking his shirt off and gyrating.  (He said that there's no market for hand-made carpentry anymore.[1])

Quote
What I find amusing is that you didn’t bother to say you merely asked questions about someone else's statement. Why not just say this from the start?
Were you unable to glean this from the fact that I had quoted someone else's statement and asked two questions starting with, "So you're . . . ?"

Also, I was illustrating a point.  Namely, that an answer is only as good as the question asked, and at least in my experience on forums theists are not asked very good questions.  Quite often, I see them asked questions based on an assumption made from their posts rather than what the person is actually saying, and often on this forum that's immediately followed by several posts creating a side conversation about the person's straw man position before they ever get a chance to respond. 

As I said earlier in the thread:
I've found that when I do give a simple, direct answers, atheists tend to not accept them because they're not the answers they were looking for, and they keep asking more convoluted questions to get the answer they want until the answers become convoluted as well.
Regardless, I have far too often seen internet atheists insist on buying the fake and selling what's real in discussions with Christians (I've even had atheists tell me that if I'm a Christian I must necessarily be a Young Earth Creationist, despite YECs being a minority of Christians.)

What better way to illustrate this than to give direct answers to the questions actually asked of me?  After all, it should not be my responsibility to make sure you have read the text you're quoting.  And that's not just me who feels this way: MTO in particular gets very upset when she feels people are not making an effort to respond to her posts.[2]

However, I digress.  My point is that a direct answer is not always a good answer, and a good answer is not always a direct answer.  Often when my answers are not direct it's because I am spending my time hedging against a hasty assumption that the other person has made or appears likely to make, which often results in them making said assumption anyways.[3]

In short, communication is a two way street.  I highly disagree with this thread's attempts to set atheists up as the arbitrators of discussion, and then sitting back and insisting theists are unable to measure up.  My objections so far have generally been met with, "Well you're usually ok, Mooby," which entirely misses the point.  So I opted to give in and provide accurate answers to the questions asked, without wasting any time hedging or explaining or any other standard tactic that makes my answers less than direct.  I didn't respond with, "Yes but that's not my view," or "Yes and no, you see it's really like this..." or any other dirty theist tactic.  I simply answered the questions asked of me, to the minimal degree required to answer them, with the most straightforward response I knew to give.

And it earned me a healthy smite and your annoyance.  See what happens when you try to fulfill an OP?



Would there be any significant difference between Mooby saying "I reject that answer as it does not fit my experience", and Anfauglir saying "I reject Moobys answer as it does not fit with MY experience"?
No.



If you love two equally, how do you decide which to love forever and which to torture or kill?

Do you just flip a coin?

And why put so many in torture of death and so few in heaven to be loved?
Would you mind terribly if I abstained from answering your questions until after you have answered mine?

 1. Though come to think of it, that does seem a bit suspicious.  Isn't there at least a niche market?
 2. And her violent responses to this seems to be what gets her into trouble the most.
 3. And then I have to spend more time correcting it, and then I get accused of not answering the question.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 04, 2014, 09:22:12 PM
Answer mine and the answer gives you yours.

As you just said, sometimes direct answers are not the best.

In this case a direct answer to what I asked you is the best as it gets you to refute yourself.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: nogodsforme on January 04, 2014, 09:26:47 PM
As long as we are all getting down and dirty having fun mud wrassling with each other while dodging Mooby's intellectual laser blasts, how about an obvious question? First let me try to summarize some of the discussion so far.

Mooby says we might be able to understand faith and belief if we knew some ideas that perhaps most believers only understand superficially, because they never study the theology of their own religion. The theology is so complex that for god to explain himself to us would be like Stephen Hawking trying to explain quantum physics to a small child. Fair enough. I can't understand quantum physics beyond stories and metaphors.

But I would counter that just being really smart does not make someone a good teacher, and if I had some information that was life and death, I would figure out how to explain it. A really good teacher tries to explain things well, and maybe god is very smart, but not a very good teacher if most people can't understand him...

Also Mooby says that some things are subjective and cannot be adequately explained in words, but must be experienced.

Like why you love someone and not someone else. I get that. Before I had my daughter, I understood what it meant to love a child, but I did not know what it meant to love a child. (Maybe since I was abused rather than loved, I also realized that parental love was not automatic, but was also a choice...)  Other mothers said nobody can explain how much you will love your child, how you will be willing to die for your baby. This is all true-- there are things that you have to experience to understand.

So it is understandable that Jesus would use stories, parables and metaphors, etc. Okay so far.

But here is the problem: god made us this way, so lots of us will not be able for whatever reason, to experience faith. God made us too dumb for the universe, and then punishes us for being too dumb for the universe. Why make us humans so stupid that most of us cannot understand the basics, if that is what it takes to achieve salvation? And then there are all those people like Paul, who were struck magically with faith one day out of the blue. WTF is up with that? Like, some people get the answers to the test and the rest of us just have to fail?

It is like Stephen Hawking telling all his students to study for the exam, and then failing everyone but two of his students-- who he secretly gave the answers to his exam.

Sorry Mooby. Any way you go, the road leads back to god. The buck always stops on his big celestial desk.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: shnozzola on January 04, 2014, 09:50:59 PM
Hi Mooby,
   You are obviously very intelligent, a doctor I believe(?), and you spend so much time on several forums.  I have a direct question.  I guess you've answered it before, but I may not have understood it.   As a theist, what do YOU believe god is?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Mooby on January 05, 2014, 12:53:02 AM
In this case a direct answer to what I asked you is the best as it gets you to refute yourself.

As a refresher, here are the claims you have made:


A)

B)

C)

D)
Here are the things I claimed:
In addition, I asked you how you got C1 from B1 (4).  You replied with three additional questions that do not address C1 at all.  Likewise, you have not addressed my 1) and have inadequately addressed 3) by posting D, which is not even talking about the same question (C is about love while D is about equality.)


I will humor you, though.  Which of my claims in 1-3 do you intend your questions to refute?  And when will you get around to addressing my claims 1), 3), and question 4)?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Mooby on January 05, 2014, 01:06:58 AM
Why make us humans so stupid that most of us cannot understand the basics, if that is what it takes to achieve salvation?
On the contrary, you'll note in my post where I talk about the scope of infinite knowledge that I said I think most of us can understand the basics.  I contended that it's trying to understand in an inappropriate manner that causes the confusion.

The average Christian does not need to concern themselves with the role epigenetics played in the Incarnation; understanding that Jesus died for their sins is usually enough.  I think that you and I have a very different notion of "basics."

Quote
And then there are all those people like Paul, who were struck magically with faith one day out of the blue. WTF is up with that? Like, some people get the answers to the test and the rest of us just have to fail?
I don't know.  It's never happened to me.

As a theist, what do YOU believe god is?
I posted that here. (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25200.msg564031.html#msg564031)
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ralonx on January 07, 2014, 09:51:16 PM
I'm sorry if I devert off of a topic, but it is only to reply to the originally posted question:

This is my first post on this forum as a new member. I am going to open with the fact that I am a Christian and I believe in the total deity of Christ in His entirety. So please understand that having said that, everything I say and read will likely be filtered through that lens, as I would expect everyone else's reading of my post would be filtered through the lens of what they believe. Also, I would like to extend an invitation to anyone who would like to email me, my email is posted on my account (presumably) and you are free to do so, I will not "dodge questions" as it was stated, or I will try not to. I just find it easier to post and well thought, intelligent response over email. I know it's the same as posting on a forum, I'm just silly that way.

Now, down to business. Why is it hard for us to answer a direct question. I'll tell you. Here it is.....Because believers are scared, intimidated, human beings like everyone else on the planet. Unfortunately I will be the second to admit that even I know little about God and that I am a pathetic, sorry excuse for a human being. Even Paul said that in 1 Corinthians 2: 3-5

"I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power."

I wouldn't say that it is because we think "Our God is bullcrap" it is just that most people dont know the answer and don't want to screw it up. Fact is there is alot we dont know about God, or maybe I only speak for myself, but the pursuit of faith and knowledge of God is a lifelong journey. The day I believe that I have all the answers is the day that I know nothing.

As for me, I won't dodge a question. I may give the wrong answer, or I may give you an answer that is you don't want to hear. Bottom line is, I'm weak. But I find that okay because God exalts the weak because it is through them that he can show his power. And I know I will get nasty emails relating back to "Then why doesn't God heal amputees if He shows His power through weakness" I will be glad to answer that question via email or another post perhaps, I think this one is getting a bit long though. And I promise I won't redirect to another video done by someone else to show my point.

Keep in mind, on forums like these, you get alot of fanatical, hateful people on both sides of a discussion. I want to press out the point that I do not hate anyone, and anything I say is said out of love, and no it's not because "My God is Love" either. On a side note, that is something often said that is scriptural, but only in the original Greek usage of the work "Agape." The term "love" in the English more refers to a junk-drawer-definition of feelings. Like I love my wife, my dog, my God, and my taco. I really don't mean the same thing for all four. It leaves out the inseparable reality of wrath being a very true and harmonious part of love. Think about it, you can only have wrath if you really love something. If you didn't have wrath when something you loved was abused, well then you never really cared about it. And yes, God does have wrath towards wrong doings and He is just as wrathful as He was in the Old Testament. God's wrath is a building wrath though, and will one day be unleashed in its totality upon the world. The book of Revelation is entirely devoted to it. But that is yet another topic.

As I said, email, please. I would like to help find some answers as best I can.

Thanks
Sorry about the length
And the bunny trails ;)
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Traveler on January 07, 2014, 09:59:40 PM
ralamx, hello and welcome. I have to say, though, that this is a discussion board, and private discussions pretty much get in the way of that. I strongly suggest that you discuss your views publicly. If you begin to feel overwhelmed with responses you can issue a request for a one-on-one debate or to post in The Shelter, where the rules are much more tuned toward a gentle environment.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Star Stuff on January 07, 2014, 10:02:58 PM
....I am a pathetic, sorry excuse for a human being.

I remember regurgitating that same impoverished, unhealthy and untrue nonsense when I was a christian.  It was fed to me from the pulpit, and as a defenseless child, I didn't have a developed mind to see that it was BS.  "Sin is an imaginary disease invented to sell you an imaginary cure."


Quote
Even Paul said that in 1 Corinthians 2: 3-5

So what?  What's so great about Paul?  There is material you can read which strongly suggests that he was likely more of a nutcase, if you were to take a moment and look at your beliefs critically.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 08, 2014, 01:33:40 AM
Keep in mind, on forums like these, you get alot of fanatical, hateful people on both sides of a discussion. I want to press out the point that I do not hate anyone, and anything I say is said out of love, and no it's not because "My God is Love" either. On a side note, that is something often said that is scriptural, but only in the original Greek usage of the work "Agape." The term "love" in the English more refers to a junk-drawer-definition of feelings. Like I love my wife, my dog, my God, and my taco. I really don't mean the same thing for all four. It leaves out the inseparable reality of wrath being a very true and harmonious part of love. Think about it, you can only have wrath if you really love something. If you didn't have wrath when something you loved was abused, well then you never really cared about it. And yes, God does have wrath towards wrong doings and He is just as wrathful as He was in the Old Testament. God's wrath is a building wrath though, and will one day be unleashed in its totality upon the world. The book of Revelation is entirely devoted to it. But that is yet another topic.

Welcome raylonx

Gee, our first disagreement. And it is over wrath.

I don't quite see the connection between wrath and love. As a being who loves but who isn't wrathful, I'm pretty sure the connection isn't a requirement. Let alone normal.

Wrath comes from having unmet expectations. And if I don't bother coming up with unmeetable expectations, I'll have nothing to be wrathful about.

Now this doesn't include extremes, like someone running into my car. Which still doesn't get me wrathful, though I'll admit I wouldn't be very happy about it.  I'm talking here about relationship level wrath. Love level wrath. Which neither I nor those I love ever experiences from me.

Now I've gotten it from others. But they set expectations that were either undefined, unreasonable, unstated, and/or unagreed upon. Sometimes they were indeed reasonable, but unstated, so I couldn't know that I was doing the wrong thing. At other times they were stated but not something I agreed to. But even those scenarios have been rare in my life, mostly I think because I am not one to wildly express anger at every opportunity. But in any case, wrath is of little use if it isn't needed. And people wise enough to be careful with their expectations have little use for it.

So wrath, to me, comes into play not as a natural opposite to love, but rather as a byproduct of unstated or unagreed upon or just plain clumsy expectations that are not met.

Nobody in my life experiences wrath from me. If anyone ever saw me wrathful they would immediately suggest I get checked for brain tumors. I avoid getting angry because I don't expect people to do everything I wish they would. I have my preferences, but not my demands.

And it works. So if I can successfully negotiate life without being pissed, your god should be able to do far better.

Of course, since he doesn't exist, it is the people who say he does that are doing the getting mad. Because they expect to be believed and they expect power and when they don't get it they let us know they are unhappy. That is the source of biblical wrath; selfishness.

I do wish you could see that.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on January 08, 2014, 03:44:11 AM
Now, down to business. Why is it hard for us to answer a direct question. I'll tell you. Here it is.....Because believers are scared, intimidated, human beings like everyone else on the planet.

True enough....to a point.  And yet those fearful, scared Christians seem to be on every street corner talking about their god, and brave enough to come to a forum full of atheists to tell us their god exists.  Doesn't sound very fearful to me, but maybe I'm missing the point.  Christians have no fear trumpeting the god they are positive exists, but are afraid to answer questions about the detail in case they got it wrong, is that it?

It leaves out the inseparable reality of wrath being a very true and harmonious part of love. Think about it, you can only have wrath if you really love something. If you didn't have wrath when something you loved was abused, well then you never really cared about it. And yes, God does have wrath towards wrong doings and He is just as wrathful as He was in the Old Testament. God's wrath is a building wrath though, and will one day be unleashed in its totality upon the world. The book of Revelation is entirely devoted to it. But that is yet another topic.

Couple things I don't understand here - perhaps you could walk me through them?

1) You say your god is wrathful when the things he loves are abused.  You are correct, if I saw my loved ones in danger I would step in and help them.  But we see all manner of bad things going on in the world, and your god does not intervene, preferring to sit back and "build his wrath" instead.  Is that a method you would advocate  in response to abuse of the people you or I love?

2) I love my daughter.  If she does something that makes me mad, then because I love her I try to explain, over and over again if necessary, what it is I believe she should be doing.  I do not sit in the next room, fuming and tutting until I just explode and beat her, "unleashing my fury in its totality".  From what you are saying, my constant involvement and discussion and presence in my daughter's life is not the best strategy, and it would be more loving to just keep getting madder - is that correct?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on January 08, 2014, 03:56:36 AM
Most of the last five pages of this thread moved onto the subject of Naturalism, so I have split them off.

Naturalism as a means of establishing reality (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26174.0.html).
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Ataraxia on January 08, 2014, 06:42:21 AM
...I am a pathetic, sorry excuse for a human being.

I don't believe that.

Try something - rack your brains and make a list of all the things you deem to have been good deeds that you have done, say since the turn of the year. Then make a list of all the things you deem to be bad deeds. Now take these two lists and envisage where your god would put each deed. Do you expect there to be any shifting of deeds between the good and bad categories? If yes, then ask yourself why god would consider something good/bad which you consider the opposite. If no, welcome to SPAG.
Title: Re: Naturalism as a means of establishing reality
Post by: harbinger77 on January 08, 2014, 09:27:35 AM

Paul may have been a nut case... hmmm.  I've read false apostle and wolf in sheep's clothing before but never nut case... Is this just unsubstantiated conjecture again? Is there a link you can post for us to "look at our beliefs critically?" I for one am always interested in reading things like these. Thank you.

Here. (post #87).  I think it was translated from French, and the translation isn't great, but you'll get the gist:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,1262.msg25740.html#msg25740

Interesting.. Well written... imaginative. I can see how this may be convincing for someone who is unfamiliar with Paul's writings. We could go through the whole of the entry you have submitted and discuss each point in light of what paul wrote if you would like? This is pure fantasy on the authors part. Before you start to break down your evidence and show me how and where even half of this fits with Paul's writings, maybe you can answer my very first question....
How is a french philosopher qualified to make such medical diagnoses?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Onfray
Title: Re: Naturalism as a means of establishing reality
Post by: Star Stuff on January 08, 2014, 11:37:11 AM
Interesting.. Well written... imaginative. I can see how this may be convincing for someone who is unfamiliar with Paul's writings. We could go through the whole of the entry you have submitted and discuss each point in light of what paul wrote if you would like? This is pure fantasy on the authors part. Before you start to break down your evidence and show me how and where even half of this fits with Paul's writings, maybe you can answer my very first question....
How is a french philosopher qualified to make such medical diagnoses?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Onfray

I'd like to raise your awareness of something.  Note the scepticism, doubt and critical thinking that you employ and apply to that body of text, but you do not employ those same tools to the text of the bible.  Why is that?
Title: Re: Naturalism as a means of establishing reality
Post by: Hatter23 on January 08, 2014, 11:45:24 AM
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Onfray

I'd like to raise your awareness of something.  Note the scepticism, doubt and critical thinking that you employ and apply to that body of text, but you do not employ those same tools to the text of the bible.  Why is that?

I hope his writing has improved since the only thing that I read by him was "The Atheist Manifesto" and it was rambling, unstructured laundry list of abuses by primarily the Catholic Church, some other Christian denomintions, and a light sprinkling of other religions. It was singularly the worst book on atheism I've read, reminding me of stuff I wrote in high school when I was a Deist....but at least I had the excuse of being 16.
Title: Re: Naturalism as a means of establishing reality
Post by: wheels5894 on January 08, 2014, 12:33:18 PM

Paul may have been a nut case... hmmm.  I've read false apostle and wolf in sheep's clothing before but never nut case... Is this just unsubstantiated conjecture again? Is there a link you can post for us to "look at our beliefs critically?" I for one am always interested in reading things like these. Thank you.

Here. (post #87).  I think it was translated from French, and the translation isn't great, but you'll get the gist:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,1262.msg25740.html#msg25740

Interesting.. Well written... imaginative. I can see how this may be convincing for someone who is unfamiliar with Paul's writings. We could go through the whole of the entry you have submitted and discuss each point in light of what paul wrote if you would like? This is pure fantasy on the authors part. Before you start to break down your evidence and show me how and where even half of this fits with Paul's writings, maybe you can answer my very first question....
How is a french philosopher qualified to make such medical diagnoses?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Onfray

Now there's an interesting question, Harbinger - possibly you most insightful yet. What does make a person qualified to speak on a topic? Well, for one thing, it is a person who has studied the matter in hand and, maybe, has academic qualifications in that area. Yet what area do we need? A biblical scholar would have a different set of questions to ask of the text than, say, a systematic theologian. Yet neither of these really are equipped to look at the case in point, was Paul suffering form anything?

We know that he complains about a problem but he, annoyingly, never tells us what it is. Various people have had a crack at this with varying results. personally, I have wondered if he might have been gay - given his outspokenness on sexual matters. Yet what Onfray gives us is an account of a possible psychiatric disorder that might have been Paul's problem. He gives us enough detail and he explains a lot of theology that is not so easy to explain in others ways. I ma not as convinced by him as others, probably because I don't think Paul was the figure the church claims he was. I don't think he existed in the time frame given to him and I see these letters of his as having been penned late - into the 90s CE on the grounds of the theology and lack of independent evidence of his travels and communities he was supposed to have started.

Nonetheless there are some serious problems with Paul that need some explanation and Onfray gives us some of these. Critical is the way Paul - who never heard or saw Jesus - produces hard and firm instructions on matters that Jesus had little to speak about. His outspokenness on sexual matters and marriage is in sharp contrast to Jesus more of less silence? How do you account for that, Harbinger?

Then again, Paul has a much more developed Christology than even John's gospel, the last to be written. How do you account for that? If Paul wrote before Mark, how come Mark never heard about Paul's Christology or even his new Adam ideas on recapitulation?
Title: Re: Naturalism as a means of establishing reality
Post by: harbinger77 on January 08, 2014, 01:25:57 PM

Paul may have been a nut case... hmmm.  I've read false apostle and wolf in sheep's clothing before but never nut case... Is this just unsubstantiated conjecture again? Is there a link you can post for us to "look at our beliefs critically?" I for one am always interested in reading things like these. Thank you.

Here. (post #87).  I think it was translated from French, and the translation isn't great, but you'll get the gist:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,1262.msg25740.html#msg25740
Interesting.. Well written... imaginative. I can see how this may be convincing for someone who is unfamiliar with Paul's writings. We could go through the whole of the entry you have submitted and discuss each point in light of what paul wrote if you would like? This is pure fantasy on the authors part. Before you start to break down your evidence and show me how and where even half of this fits with Paul's writings, maybe you can answer my very first question....
How is a french philosopher qualified to make such medical diagnoses?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Onfray

I'd like to raise your awareness of something.  Note the scepticism, doubt and critical thinking that you employ and apply to that body of text, but you do not employ those same tools to the text of the bible.  Why is that?


The answer to your question is of course I do. I would note you knowledge base is limited on the subject of how I study my bible. On what basis do you make this claim? What about my other direct question? You didn't answer that...
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Star Stuff on January 08, 2014, 01:38:17 PM
If you mean this:

"How is a French philosopher qualified to make such medical diagnoses?"

I would say that he is suggesting very real possibilities, not asserting absolute certainty.  The fact is, nobody can know what the Paul character was really like, in the same way that you nor anyone else can know what the Jesus character was like or what he might have done or said, for it was all written by others decades after his "alleged" life.  The only reason you view Paul, Jesus, and other content of the bible with such reverence is that you have been born into a time & place (and possibly family) where the bible is revered by many other individuals.  You have truly succumbed to the bandwagon effect, for if Christianity never did take off (thanks to Constantine), and vanished along with all of the other cults, you would not be so hypnotized by the bible or its characters & stories.  You would view them as just what one would expect to find coming from primitive desert people.

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ralonx on January 08, 2014, 05:50:29 PM
...I am a pathetic, sorry excuse for a human being.

I don't believe that.

Try something - rack your brains and make a list of all the things you deem to have been good deeds that you have done, say since the turn of the year. Then make a list of all the things you deem to be bad deeds. Now take these two lists and envisage where your god would put each deed. Do you expect there to be any shifting of deeds between the good and bad categories? If yes, then ask yourself why god would consider something good/bad which you consider the opposite. If no, welcome to SPAG.


Okay, well said. And I thank you for your concern about my health and how I consider myself. What I meant to communicate in that statement was not what came through. I do not consider myself a "waste of space" or anything like that. I have done many "good deeds" but the questions is: Does that equate to, or cancel out all the bad things I have done?

If you eat a high calorie food like refined sugar, then eat salad, does it cancel out? Well no, you just don't take a large amount of calories in your second meal, correct? I would conjecture that our life in response to good deeds and bad deeds works the same way. Good deeds don't make us any less guilty, just gives us times when we could have made ourselves more guilty and didn't. They may turn someones eyes to see our good deeds and wave off the bad ones, but a good judge would not let a murderer go just because they helped grama across the street right?

So having said all that, we must look at a scale of good and bad. What defines a "good" person, and who's definition matters? To people, it is our own standard that matters. This is why you can go to a country like Canada or United States where theft will result in a fine or jail time, or you can go to Sierra Leone where you will get your hands chopped off. To God, and in extension Christians, it is God's standard that matters. This would be the Ten Commandments. By that standard, we have all fallen very short.

The next question now is: Does a white lie deserve hell? Well sin (or a wrong deed, however you would like to word it) all matters who it is committed against. If one was to lie to me, well then who cares really right? Is that going to cause them jail time or anything? No. However, you lie to a federal judge: That's Purgery brother. Jail. If you lied to a Persian king hundreds of years ago (or any king really, I just picked Persian out of my head)....well you wouldn't have to worry about what hat to wear, cause you wouldn't have a head to wear it on.

So does a white lie really matter? Well if one does not believe in God, then why argue about it cause it shouldn't matter right? If you even have the slightest thought that God might exist, then you realize that a sin against the creator of all things is a big deal. Does a white lie matter, yes of course it does.

When we line up all the questions like: "Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people?" or "Why would God send a good person to hell?" We have to evaluate what "good" means right? By God's standard, the only good person that ever lived was Jesus. Therefore the only hope we would have in the eyes of God would be to accept Jesus as our saviour. By humanities standard? Well then the answer to that question would really change depending on who you asked.

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ralonx on January 08, 2014, 06:13:31 PM
Now, down to business. Why is it hard for us to answer a direct question. I'll tell you. Here it is.....Because believers are scared, intimidated, human beings like everyone else on the planet.

True enough....to a point.  And yet those fearful, scared Christians seem to be on every street corner talking about their god, and brave enough to come to a forum full of atheists to tell us their god exists.  Doesn't sound very fearful to me, but maybe I'm missing the point.  Christians have no fear trumpeting the god they are positive exists, but are afraid to answer questions about the detail in case they got it wrong, is that it?

It leaves out the inseparable reality of wrath being a very true and harmonious part of love. Think about it, you can only have wrath if you really love something. If you didn't have wrath when something you loved was abused, well then you never really cared about it. And yes, God does have wrath towards wrong doings and He is just as wrathful as He was in the Old Testament. God's wrath is a building wrath though, and will one day be unleashed in its totality upon the world. The book of Revelation is entirely devoted to it. But that is yet another topic.

Couple things I don't understand here - perhaps you could walk me through them?

1) You say your god is wrathful when the things he loves are abused.  You are correct, if I saw my loved ones in danger I would step in and help them.  But we see all manner of bad things going on in the world, and your god does not intervene, preferring to sit back and "build his wrath" instead.  Is that a method you would advocate  in response to abuse of the people you or I love?

2) I love my daughter.  If she does something that makes me mad, then because I love her I try to explain, over and over again if necessary, what it is I believe she should be doing.  I do not sit in the next room, fuming and tutting until I just explode and beat her, "unleashing my fury in its totality".  From what you are saying, my constant involvement and discussion and presence in my daughter's life is not the best strategy, and it would be more loving to just keep getting madder - is that correct?

Hey! Thank you for responding :) Maybe moderators respond to things all the time in this forum, but on alot of forums they just hang out and no one hears from them. Thank you for taking interest :)

1)In short no you didn't get it wrong. Most Christians will gladly say they are a Christian, but crumble when we are confronted about it. It's sad, and I do it too. My God deserves much more than I give Him. It's one thing to identify yourself with Christ, it is another to share in his sufferings.

I'm not trying to say anything about you, or Atheists per-say by saying this, but I would rather be punched in the mouth then face the hate and threats I have had dished out to me by anti-God people. It's like all the hate and anger they feel towards God, is then turned to me. It is easier to say, "I don't deserve that" and walk away. Which is what alot of Christians do. Unfortunately, sometimes we walk away from good hearted people who just want answers, because we think they want to rip our heads off. So I hope that sheds a little more light on it.


2)So I'll try to walk you through what i meant with wrath. I only used the analogy of harmonious wrath in context of loved ones being abused to show how love and wrath cannot be separated. In the context of God's wrath, he reoccuringly comes to the defence of those who call on him. He did that totaly in the act of sending his Son Jesus to die for our sins.

To put it a little differently, it would be like someone beating your daughter, you going to try to save us, and then your daughter pulling out a gun and threatening to shoot you if you helped her. What would you do? I would stand there dumb founded for a couple seconds at the situation. I really don't know what I would do. In the context of God's wrath and saving his loved ones, he did that. All to often however, we reject his help and tell him to bugger off.

If you put it in the context of physical need, for example, Why doesn't God heal amputees? God is above our realm and sees things in a different light than we do. He sees eternity, we see present. Again, let me explain. Your daughter, when she was really young, I'm sure she stubbed her toe. It hurts like a bugger and I know when I was young I would cry and cry and say I need to go to the hospital. What did my Mom do though? Kissed it and comforted me and told me to keep going. To us, these things seem big, to God, he thinks your eternal life is more important than your physical. I know I'm gonna get hate mail for saying all that, and I am not saying that amputees have nothing wrong with them. That is a tragedy!!!!! I would never wish someone to loose a limb, but in perspective of eternity? Jesus said in Matthew 16:26 "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?". God's perspective is on your eternity.

 
Title: Re: Naturalism as a means of establishing reality
Post by: ralonx on January 08, 2014, 06:16:55 PM
I see no credentials that would suggest anything other than bias. Is this the answer to my question?

Paul had poor eyesight as the scriptures indicate this was his "thorn."

Sorry, again not to butt into a convo, but do you have a scriptural reference for that? I don't believe I remember reading that he ever defined his "thorn". Most think it was a spiritual battle. This is a man who was beaten and stoned. I don't think he would pray that God would take away his bad eyesight? I just want to know where you read that, cause I never did, but maybe I missed it?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: SevenPatch on January 08, 2014, 06:31:21 PM
So does a white lie really matter? Well if one does not believe in God, then why argue about it cause it shouldn't matter right? If you even have the slightest thought that God might exist, then you realize that a sin against the creator of all things is a big deal. Does a white lie matter, yes of course it does.

A white lie can potentially affect people though (positively or negatively), so yes it does matter without a god.  Every individual has to make these evaluations and decisions in their lives and how they affect others.  Our actions have consequences regardless of a god.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: nogodsforme on January 08, 2014, 10:00:58 PM
Thanks for the thoughtful replies, ralonx. On the subject of god not healing amputees, I think you have gotten yourself into a bind there. You say that god sees the eternal, so the missing limb is not that important in terms of eternity. Okay, let's accept that. You are saying that god does not heal any physical ailments or conditions because he sees things eternally, right?

But there are tons of Christians (and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists) who say that they were healed of cancer, of drug addiction, of drinking, of adultery, of gossiping, of you name it. Do you believe that god healed those people? We have a Christian poster on this site right now who says that his god cures people of drugs and so forth literally overnight.[1]

So, god apparently does pay attention to some physical complaints. Mainly things that are treatable with medicine, or that sometimes get better by themselves. Just not the physical problems that would be obvious impossible miracles, like growing back a severed leg, reversing senile dementia, curing a baby's Down's syndrome or a soldier's traumatic brain injury.
 1. From my perspective, either they are lying or they are mistaken-- their cancer got better temporarily and then they got sick again and died, or were mid-diagnosed and never had the condition at all. As for the rest, they were ready to quit the drugs themselves or they got help--but that does not make for as compelling a story. People's memories are very selective when it comes to mysterious healings.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ralonx on January 08, 2014, 10:40:57 PM
Thanks for the thoughtful replies, ralonx. On the subject of god not healing amputees, I think you have gotten yourself into a bind there. You say that god sees the eternal, so the missing limb is not that important in terms of eternity. Okay, let's accept that. You are saying that god does not heal any physical ailments or conditions because he sees things eternally, right?

But there are tons of Christians (and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists) who say that they were healed of cancer, of drug addiction, of drinking, of adultery, of gossiping, of you name it. Do you believe that god healed those people? We have a Christian poster on this site right now who says that his god cures people of drugs and so forth literally overnight.[1]

So, god apparently does pay attention to some physical complaints. Mainly things that are treatable with medicine, or that sometimes get better by themselves. Just not the physical problems that would be obvious impossible miracles, like growing back a severed leg, reversing senile dementia, curing a baby's Down's syndrome or a soldier's traumatic brain injury.
 1. From my perspective, either they are lying or they are mistaken-- their cancer got better temporarily and then they got sick again and died, or were mid-diagnosed and never had the condition at all. As for the rest, they were ready to quit the drugs themselves or they got help--but that does not make for as compelling a story. People's memories are very selective when it comes to mysterious healings.

Thank you "nogodsforme" on your kind and respectful address at the beginning I appreciate your thoughtful replies as well :)

Thank you for bringing that up, I write so much in the posts sometimes that I miss a detail or don't expand on something the way that I should. I apologize.

Please understand that though I would like to think that I am knowledgeable of God's ways, I really only know the surface of a vast ocean of things to know about God and the way He works. Not to mention that I am only 23 so I have alot of years of learning yet to do ;)

God DOES care about our physical ailments, and I apologize if I made it sound like He doesn't. I only meant to say that in the grand scheme of how God works, He is MORE concerned about eternity than he is about physical things. Our physical and situational griefs are serious to us! So therefore they are serious to God as well. Does He perform medical miracles that cannot be explained by any other means than God? Yes He has, and He does. I'm sure you have heard accounts in present time, and we know of recorded incidents in the Bible. He cares as much for the problems that affect us as much as we would care for the problems that affect our own children. But why God does not heal EVERY case of illness, well that is something that truly is left to mystery and I would not presume to know how or why He works on a person to person basis. Really if He was going to heal every case, then He probably would have just killed Adam and Eve and started over with a clean slate. I mean God wants us to follow Him because we want to, not because we have no other choice. If He healed every case, well, would you have a choice to believe in Him? That is my opinion on why he doesn't heal every case, take that for what it is, don't take that as theological truth. I will say, that it has little relation to who deserves it more or not. In Psalm 73, the Psalmist records that those who are opposed to God can often prosper as much or more than those who follow Him. In fact Jesus Himself promised that to follow Him was to suffer. Luke 9:23-24 ("pick up [your] cross daily and follow me") He promised persecution, suffering, and at times, death. But He also promised life. Eternally and abundantly. He also promised the joy that can only be found through knowing Him as saviour. Not happiness, but joy and contentment. This is not to say that the Christian walk is devoid of happiness or blessing, but it is to say that with one comes the other. I for one don't mind it, and in fact as James 1:2-4 says, I count my trials as joy, as they produce faith, which produces perseverance, which produces maturity (the first recording of "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger"). Let it also be said that that was said in the context of being a believer, not the generalized "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger". But I get off topic.

God does care about our physical ailments and sufferings. But as I said earlier in my previous posts, if we are defining what a "good" person is by God's standards, then the questions has to be asked: Instead of why doesn't God heal us, we need to ask why hasn't God wiped us out if we are so evil (going back to my previous reference of God wiping out Adam and Eve and starting fresh)? Valid question isn't it? As soon as you word it like that, we are left with God's grace and unfathomable love and mercy in the giving of His Son Jesus. The fact that God hasn't wiped us out and has, in turn, held back His wrath (which I talked about in my previous posts) and given us the freedom to choose Him, and escape the wrath of God, and spend eternity with Him. Why did he do that? Because of love. And that very thought and statement is the hope of all Christians, the lifeblood if you will. That is the greatest promise ever given, and without that, there really isn't any point of following God. The promise of eternal salvation is what keeps us, sustains us, and keeps our eyes on heaven day to day. I love God, not because I have to, but because I choose to. And that, my friend, is a beautiful thing.

I hope that helps define what I meant a little better. Please, if something doesn't make sense, ask me to clearify, I miss things alot. I REALLY appreciate your responses. Trust me, I don't do this to hear myself talk :) or type rather. Keep 'em coming, and I'll do my best to refine God's truth a little more.

God Bless!

Oh and the name is Timothy, or Tim. You don't have to call me "Ralonx". That is just a screen name. So impersonal.



Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 08, 2014, 10:55:22 PM
I only meant to say that in the grand scheme of how God works, He is MORE concerned about eternity than he is about physical things.

If said God is not able to help us physically, then he is not all powerful.
If he does not want to, then he is not all good.
If he is both, why call him god?

Does He perform medical miracles that cannot be explained by any other means than God? Yes He has, and He does.
[/b]

No he hasn't, and never will.

But why God does not heal EVERY case of illness, well that is something that truly is left to mystery and I would not presume to know how or why He works on a person to person basis.

God works in mysterious waysTM.

I will say, that it has little relation to who deserves it more or not. As Psalm 73 records, whose who are opposed to God can often prosper as much or more than those who follow Him.

Wow its like...as if there is no god...and that everything is natural.

God does care about our physical ailments and sufferings.

Obviously not enough, look at Africa, and the lack of any form of magic healing.

But as I said earlier, if we are defining what a "good" person is by God's standards, then the questions has to be asked: Instead of why doesn't God heal us, we should ask why hasn't God wiped us out if we are so evil?

Because.
A: Humans are not evil.
B: Sin does not exist.
C: Because humans are not extinct, and that god is fictional, god must be written as a deity who has not destroyed humans.

Valid question isn't it?

I find it no more valid that "Yeah, well why didn't Darth Vader kill Luke Skywalker in episode 5?"

As soon as you word it like that, we are left with God's grace and unfathomable love and mercy in the giving of His Son Jesus.

No, we are left with a 2000 year old book written by questionably retarded middle easterners, and the fictional character known as "god" who is loving, yet shows many non-loving traits, and activities.

Why did he do that? Because of love plot shields. And that very thought and statement is the hope of all Christians, the lifeblood if you will. 

Fixed.

I wish I had more answers. I hope that helps define what I meant a little better. Please, if something doesn't make sense, ask me to clearify, I miss things alot.

I wish you had less standard theist answers that have not been used many times before.
Saying "god is loving, you can see the love because of this" is not going to cut it...
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on January 08, 2014, 11:27:39 PM
Please understand that though I would like to think that I am knowledgeable of God's ways, I really only know the surface of a vast ocean of things to know about God and the way He works. Not to mention that I am only 23 so I have alot of years of learning yet to do ;)

God DOES care about our physical ailments, and I apologize if I made it sound like He doesn't. I only meant to say that in the grand scheme of how God works, He is MORE concerned about eternity than he is about physical things. Our physical and situational griefs are serious to us! So therefore they are serious to God as well. Does He perform medical miracles that cannot be explained by any other means than God? Yes He has, and He does. I'm sure you have heard accounts in present time, and we know of recorded incidents in the Bible. He cares as much for the problems that affect us as much as we would care for the problems that affect our own children. But why God does not heal EVERY case of illness, well that is something that truly is left to mystery and I would not presume to know how or why He works on a person to person basis. Really if He was going to heal every case, then He probably would have just killed Adam and Eve and started over with a clean slate. I mean God wants us to follow Him because we want to, not because we have no other choice. If He healed every case, well, would you have a choice to believe in Him? That is my opinion on why he doesn't heal every case, take that for what it is, don't take that as theological truth. I will say, that it has little relation to who deserves it more or not. In Psalm 73, the Psalmist records that those who are opposed to God can often prosper as much or more than those who follow Him. In fact Jesus Himself promised that to follow Him was to suffer. Luke 9:23-24 ("pick up [your] cross daily and follow me") He promised persecution, suffering, and at times, death. But He also promised life. Eternally and abundantly. He also promised the joy that can only be found through knowing Him as saviour. Not happiness, but joy and contentment. This is not to say that the Christian walk is devoid of happiness or blessing, but it is to say that with one comes the other. I for one don't mind it, and in fact as James 1:2-4 says, I count my trials as joy, as they produce faith, which produces perseverance, which produces maturity (the first recording of "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger"). Let it also be said that that was said in the context of being a believer, not the generalized "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger". But I get off topic.

God does care about our physical ailments and sufferings. But as I said earlier in my previous posts, if we are defining what a "good" person is by God's standards, then the questions has to be asked: Instead of why doesn't God heal us, we need to ask why hasn't God wiped us out if we are so evil (going back to my previous reference of God wiping out Adam and Eve and starting fresh)? Valid question isn't it? As soon as you word it like that, we are left with God's grace and unfathomable love and mercy in the giving of His Son Jesus. The fact that God hasn't wiped us out and has, in turn, held back His wrath (which I talked about in my previous posts) and given us the freedom to choose Him, and escape the wrath of God, and spend eternity with Him. Why did he do that? Because of love. And that very thought and statement is the hope of all Christians, the lifeblood if you will. That is the greatest promise ever given, and without that, there really isn't any point of following God. The promise of eternal salvation is what keeps us, sustains us, and keeps our eyes on heaven day to day. I love God, not because I have to, but because I choose to. And that, my friend, is a beautiful thing.

I hope that helps define what I meant a little better. Please, if something doesn't make sense, ask me to clearify, I miss things alot. I REALLY appreciate your responses. Trust me, I don't do this to hear myself talk :) or type rather. Keep 'em coming, and I'll do my best to refine God's truth a little more.

God Bless!

Oh and the name is Timothy, or Tim. You don't have to call me "Ralonx". That is just a screen name. So impersonal.

Hi Tim, that is a lot of talk about what your god thinks. You have given him your own personality, maybe some of the bits you don't want to admit to yourself.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: harbinger77 on January 09, 2014, 12:13:55 AM
I learned today that if some mod comes along and deletes a post it even vanishes from my personal history. I agree that The mod should have some rights if we get off topic to move a post. I think it shows quite a bias to DELETE the one that may have had roots in the "rabbit trail" but was at the heart, back on topic!

I believe by the Grace of God this one was salvaged and will stand as a reminder that the title to this thread is bias. One must be willing to admit his own guilt before he can go judging others, Ya know!

If a person comes up with a reasonable argument, if the receiver refuses to listen to reason...it is still a reasonable argument...but not as far as the receiver is concerned. And that is what is happening here.
Ok, I'm listening.  What is the reasonable argument for naturalism?
Nothing you can accept.
I see.

This sounds exactly like what Christians say about our arguments falling on deaf ears and hardened hearts.... lol and then followed by the perfect dodge and on all the threads it could be on... Praise the Lord Mooby... hahaha

Praise the Lord! Thank you Mooby :)
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: xyzzy on January 09, 2014, 12:16:06 AM
I'm not trying to say anything about you, or Atheists per-say by saying this, but I would rather be punched in the mouth then face the hate and threats I have had dished out to me by anti-God people. It's like all the hate and anger they feel towards God, is then turned to me. It is easier to say, "I don't deserve that" and walk away. Which is what alot of Christians do. Unfortunately, sometimes we walk away from good hearted people who just want answers, because we think they want to rip our heads off. So I hope that sheds a little more light on it.

ralonx, welcome, it's good to have you here. Also, thank you for taking the time to organise your thoughts, and for laying them out in readable paragraphs. That makes it so much easier to follow your arguments. White space rules, and your use of it is appreciated.

Oh yes, the comment about the moderators. This really is a wonderful venue. You'll even find that atheists will correct and disagree with other atheists. It is not a question of sides here. Also, don't spread it around lest people think you off your rocker, but I've heard whispers to the effect that moderators are human. I know, astonishing, isn't it? ;) - that is a nice thing about WWGHA, they participate as regular members too.

Now, I do realise that the above is somewhat of an aside, you did clearly say it wasn't a comment directly about people here, and I don't want to go to far off-topic, but something needs clarifying so it doesn't cause surprise later.

You see, the thing is, atheists don't hate your god. It's simply not possible to hate or be angry against something that doesn't exist. I don't mean to wound you by my bluntness, but you do need to appreciate that some here were believers; others, like me, have never, ever, ever, believed in your god, or any other other god.

This whole "you hate god" thing comes up a lot, and it's irksome. If you truly think we are angry at your god consider this: "Why do you hate Zeus?" "You're just angry at Ra" - those make no sense to you, do they? After all Zeus and Ra never existed. Right? Well, that's pretty much what an atheist hears when someone says "you're angry at god".

The part about you suffering hate. Well, that's sad and walking away would seem prudent. I'm not suggesting that you are being misleading about that, but I do wonder if you may not have mistaken frustrations at the institution of religion, or the effects of religion on society, for hatred of your god. Just a thought, I'm sure we will get back to that another time. I just wanted you to be aware of the reaction you'll get.

Now, many good points have been covered, so the only one I'm going to repeat is the part about miracles.

It's convenient, isn't it, how Yahweh's "miracles" are consistent with human abilities - of that time period -  but you may not see it that way? As far as I can determine, many miracles only happen when no one is there to properly record it. And of course, wherever video capabilities exist, the number of miracles has plummeted. Again, you don't find that even the slightly bit odd? Not at all?

There's absolutely never been found any indication that so-called medical miracles are more prevalent in Christians (for example) than any other religion, or the non-religious. Why not? If it happens no more to a Christian than, say, a Hindu, what does that tell you? I'd appreciate your take on that.

You answered with Yahweh's mysteries ways, but how is it that this god is mysterious when it comes to things that could absolutely demonstrate his existence, yet believers claim to know so much about what he wants, to the points of specificity, with other things? That's not mysterious, ralonx, that's called making up excuses.

Here's a final item for your consideration. You're American, I think, so let's use that as a base. Many soldiers are young men, younger than you. They go into battle fighting for their country, and believing that "god" is on their side. George Bush, for example, declared that he was on a mission from god when he went into Iraq.

Now, these brave young men[1] go in to battle, they get their arms and legs blown off - all in service of their country and their god. Yet "god" is happy to heal people from things that humans naturally heal from. But, replacing missing limbs? He never does that. Never Ever.

You seem to like analogies, here's one. You're one of soldiers above. Around you are comrades. Over come the doctors and surgeons.

The guy with the broken leg? Certainly, we can fix that. Oh, you've got a ton of shrapnel in you? Let us remove it. Oh, you have severe internal injuries. Well, this it tough, but we'll work in it. You may need organ transplants, but we're on it.

Oh, now you two. The one who has lost an arm and a leg.  Sorry, soldier, but no-can-do. Oh, and you, the teenager who has lost all his limbs, suffered severe spinal damage, trauma to the brain? We could so easily fix you, but we are not going to. You just need to accept that our reasons are mysterious, and you'll thank us later, but you get to see life from the confines of a shell of a body confined to a wheelchair. Carry on!

That's not mysterious; for an omnipotent god that's downright delinquent. I should have asked, do you believe that this god could help, but chooses not to? I think that is your position. Do correct me if I accidentally misrepresented you in this point.

Of course, an explanation that perfectly accounts for his inaction, is that he doesn't exist.

ralonx, you seem a nice guy - but you make excuses for this being that affords his "miracles" in a manner that seems inversely proportional to need. Yet you view such actions as those of a loving god?

Really. I mean, really? F'ing magnets miracles, how do they work? Or do they even exist?
 1. Irrespective of the right and wrong, they are still brave
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on January 09, 2014, 03:54:16 AM
Hey! Thank you for responding :) Maybe moderators respond to things all the time in this forum, but on alot of forums they just hang out and no one hears from them. Thank you for taking interest :)

No worries.  Just as a general note, I think all the Mods and Admins here take part in threads.  When we're debating as a member, we type normally.  But when we are speaking as a Mod, we go all green and bold.   It's just one of things, we can't control it, its a bit like the Incredible Hulk.....   ;D
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on January 09, 2014, 03:57:20 AM
1) You say your god is wrathful when the things he loves are abused.  You are correct, if I saw my loved ones in danger I would step in and help them.  But we see all manner of bad things going on in the world, and your god does not intervene, preferring to sit back and "build his wrath" instead.  Is that a method you would advocate  in response to abuse of the people you or I love?

1)In short no you didn't get it wrong. Most Christians will gladly say they are a Christian, but crumble when we are confronted about it. It's sad, and I do it too. My God deserves much more than I give Him. It's one thing to identify yourself with Christ, it is another to share in his sufferings.

Sorry, but you missed my point.  I was not talking about Christians, I was talking about your god.
I see those I loved being abused, I immediately step in and do something.  I call this love.
Your god sees those he loves being abused, he does nothing but beuild his wrath.  You call that love.

Should I try to emulate your god so as to display more love, and do nothing but fume inside when I see bad thingsd happen?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on January 09, 2014, 04:03:26 AM
2) I love my daughter.  If she does something that makes me mad, then because I love her I try to explain, over and over again if necessary, what it is I believe she should be doing.  I do not sit in the next room, fuming and tutting until I just explode and beat her, "unleashing my fury in its totality".  From what you are saying, my constant involvement and discussion and presence in my daughter's life is not the best strategy, and it would be more loving to just keep getting madder - is that correct?
2)So I'll try to walk you through what i meant with wrath. I only used the analogy of harmonious wrath in context of loved ones being abused to show how love and wrath cannot be separated. In the context of God's wrath, he reoccuringly comes to the defence of those who call on him. He did that totaly in the act of sending his Son Jesus to die for our sins.

To put it a little differently, it would be like someone beating your daughter, you going to try to save us, and then your daughter pulling out a gun and threatening to shoot you if you helped her. What would you do? I would stand there dumb founded for a couple seconds at the situation. I really don't know what I would do. In the context of God's wrath and saving his loved ones, he did that. All to often however, we reject his help and tell him to bugger off.

And if it was my daughter, I would still try to help her, no matter how many times she told me to go away.  I mean, to complete the analogy you used with stubbed toes, I know better than my daughter whether she needs help or not, and by extension your god has a vastly better understanding of when help is required.  And so far as I can tell, since god has not popped in to help with famine, genocide, child abuse, or any of a thousand other issues I could name, he clearly does not regard them as actual problems.

So I ask the same question as above: if your god does not regard them as problems, why should I care?  Surely I should try to follow the example of god?

The only other interpretation I could put on your words is that your god threw a "hissy fit" when his help was spurned, and backed right off.  But THAT can't be right, because (a) he's GOD, and above such things, and (b) would still be helping out the True Christians around the world - and that isn't happening, so far as I can see.  So I'm confused.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on January 09, 2014, 04:13:28 AM
I learned today that if some mod comes along and deletes a post it even vanishes from my personal history. I agree that The mod should have some rights if we get off topic to move a post. I think it shows quite a bias to DELETE the one that may have had roots in the "rabbit trail" but was at the heart, back on topic!

If this refers to the post that was over a screen of quote with 2 or 3 lines at the bottom that related to perhaps the last two lines of the quoted text, then yes, it was removed wholesale.  You have been told several times to check your quoting, which still doesn't seem to be happening.

The post you are quoting here was one of the ones moved when the thread was split.  It appears on page 4 of that thread still, and so was NOT deleted.  I thought I had moved back all the relevant posts - clearly I missed one - my apologies.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Ataraxia on January 09, 2014, 04:34:45 AM
...I am a pathetic, sorry excuse for a human being.

I don't believe that.

Try something - rack your brains and make a list of all the things you deem to have been good deeds that you have done, say since the turn of the year. Then make a list of all the things you deem to be bad deeds. Now take these two lists and envisage where your god would put each deed. Do you expect there to be any shifting of deeds between the good and bad categories? If yes, then ask yourself why god would consider something good/bad which you consider the opposite. If no, welcome to SPAG.


Okay, well said. And I thank you for your concern about my health and how I consider myself.

No worries. Being an optimist, it concerns me when I see pessimism, especially when that pessimism is aimed at ones own existence.

Did you try it out, btw? Did you see a difference in you and god?

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What I meant to communicate in that statement was not what came through. I do not consider myself a "waste of space" or anything like that. I have done many "good deeds" but the questions is: Does that equate to, or cancel out all the bad things I have done?

No, it doesn't. However, neither do the bad things cancel out the good things.
This seems to be something the Christian god also fails to realise. He focuses on the bad things, accentuates them and points them out to you to tell you how much of a rubbish human you are, all the while ignoring all the good things you've done.
The only "good" thing this god does take notice of is your admittance that you are bad with the realisation that you are only forgiven of this badness if you accept that god and his manifestations have taken the brunt of the punishment you deserve..... and if you don't do this "good" thing then you will take the punishment..... for.ever. Nice.

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Good deeds don't make us any less guilty, just gives us times when we could have made ourselves more guilty and didn't. They may turn someones eyes to see our good deeds and wave off the bad ones, but a good judge would not let a murderer go just because they helped grama across the street right?

Nope, but a good judge who is evaluating the entirety of your life wouldn't dismiss it, would they? A good judge wouldn't dismiss the murder either would they, and let them off the hook if they accepted that the judge's son was taking the punishment for the murderer?

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So having said all that, we must look at a scale of good and bad. What defines a "good" person, and who's definition matters? To people, it is our own standard that matters. This is why you can go to a country like Canada or United States where theft will result in a fine or jail time, or you can go to Sierra Leone where you will get your hands chopped off.

Yes, to us it is our standards that matter because our standards are all we have got to work with. Societies on one side of the globe have different standards to societies on the other side of the globe, and if we find ourselves in a society whose standards differ from our own we still do our best to conform to them. To anyone of moral worth, the deterrent for theft should be irrelevant to not wanting to thieve (though thieving and its moral judgments, like anything else, are relative to the specific circumstances).

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To God, and in extension Christians, it is God's standard that matters. This would be the Ten Commandments. By that standard, we have all fallen very short.

What about the other 613?

Anyway, the 10 commandments are entrapment. They're goals set up with the specific intention of us never being able to achieve them. They might as well be thrown out and replaced with "being human is bad".

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The next question now is: Does a white lie deserve hell? Well sin (or a wrong deed, however you would like to word it) all matters who it is committed against. If one was to lie to me, well then who cares really right?

You would care? The person who lied to you may care? The other people who are indirectly affected by it care?

But no, a white lie doesn't deserve hell because nothing does, not even your god. ;)

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Is that going to cause them jail time or anything? No. However, you lie to a federal judge: That's Purgery brother. Jail. If you lied to a Persian king hundreds of years ago (or any king really, I just picked Persian out of my head)....well you wouldn't have to worry about what hat to wear, cause you wouldn't have a head to wear it on.

Like thieving, it's relative to the specific circumstances and standards. Also, like thieving, lying generally connotes a negative impact, though there are situations where lying or thieving might achieve something positive.

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So does a white lie really matter? Well if one does not believe in God, then why argue about it cause it shouldn't matter right?

Of course it still matters if it affects you. Why shouldn't it matter just because one doesn't believe in god? This is what we do, this is why we set up laws and systems, because actions of others affect other people. We don't have to believe we are accountable to a god when we are accountable to 7 billion other people.

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If you even have the slightest thought that God might exist, then you realize that a sin against the creator of all things is a big deal. Does a white lie matter, yes of course it does.

Sin is a problem god created for himself, as you say, he is the creator of all things. God has the potential to remove this problem. Jeez, god had the potential to never even give himself the problem. Either that or he needs to put a complaint in to the manufacturer of his celestial Play-do machine.
But then you see, god tries to weasel his way out of that by hypnotising followers into thinking that sin is their fault, yet those of us on the prosecution can see past his attempts of diminished responsibility, or should that be complete irresponsibility.

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When we line up all the questions like: "Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people?" or "Why would God send a good person to hell?" We have to evaluate what "good" means right? By God's standard, the only good person that ever lived was Jesus. Therefore the only hope we would have in the eyes of God would be to accept Jesus as our saviour. By humanities standard? Well then the answer to that question would really change depending on who you asked.

Yes, as I said above, the only "good" we can do in god's eyes is to realise we are bad and accept that he's so loving that he can forgive us of our badness by taking the burden we deserve. That ain't good and it sure ain't loving. It's egotism and morally reprehensible.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ralonx on January 09, 2014, 10:29:28 PM
Well I won't respond to anyone's comment specifically. My there is a lot of responses. So I'll try to address the most general of topics. The concept of miracles and how a loving God can allow bad things to happen.

So on the topic of miracles. It was brought up that with more technology, and provable means, miracles seem to happen less. I would not be inclined to say that they happen less. But perhaps it is that God does them, and we try to explain them away? I'm just putting that thought out there, I know that won't fly in a forum like this, so please don't think that I thought that would end the discussion lol. I mean, we can look at anything anymore and find an alternative explanation for it right? Perhaps we don't see miracles anymore because we choose to not look for them?

When looking at the topic of God's goodness and mercy, we also have to realize that God could sit back and do nothing. There are a lot of problems out there. Starvation, disease, death, war. The list could go on. When it comes right down to solid answers, I don't want to dodge the questions as this topic is about, but I really don't have the answers. And this may sound like a cop-out, but I believe that the reason why God is God, and we are not, is because He knows better than we do. And though God may choose to not solve every problem that humanity has, like some sort of wish fountain, I also believe it wrong to blame God for humanity's problems. If we are so much better and wiser than He is, then why haven't we solved world hunger? Or world peace? I dwell on the promise of Romans 8:28 that says "All things work together for good to those who love the Lord and are called according to His purposes". It doesn't wall all things are good, it just says all things work together for good.

As for me, I would rather put my faith in God who has yet to fail me (and no that will not change if I lose my legs) rather than people who I know fail me on a daily basis. Heck, I fail MYSELF on a daily basis.

The only scripture that we have to answer why God withholds blessing from some, and gives it to another, is a book that makes some mad and some uneasy when mentioned: The book of Job. Terrible things happened to a man who was deemed righteous. The whole book he cried out to God for answers. His friends mislead him, and God doesn't EVER tell him, even tip the end of his life, why all those things happened. The fact is God is sovereign. He doesn't have to answer to us. As I said, I am going to get a lot of angry, frustrated responses based on that, but that's the only answers I have. I rely on God for everything. Fr some, that seems like stupidity. For me, it's comfort. I know that no matter what happens to me, I don't have to worry about it because God will work it out. And of course EVERYTHING in ones life could be explained as coincidence, just like miracles. But if God made everything obvious, well, we wouldn't have to choose Him. We would have no choice but to follow Him. Makes God look like everything is about Him. Makes Him look selfish. Of course it does. Everything is all about Him. He's God. Doesn't that make sense? If I created all of everything, I would expect it to be all about me to. But I am powerless to do so. That's why I am not God. So I simply render praise and glory to where praise and glory is due.

I apologize for the fact that this response will only confuse things even more. But at least I'm answering a direct question with a direct answer ;)

Thanks for your responses :)
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Star Stuff on January 09, 2014, 11:21:43 PM
So on the topic of miracles. It was brought up that with more technology, and provable means, miracles seem to happen less. I would not be inclined to say that they happen less. But perhaps it is that God does them, and we try to explain them away? I'm just putting that thought out there, I know that won't fly in a forum like this, so please don't think that I thought that would end the discussion lol. I mean, we can look at anything anymore and find an alternative explanation for it right? Perhaps we don't see miracles anymore because we choose to not look for them?

You are making excuses and rationalizations. What is more likely:  Primitive, superstitious, pre-darwinian, pre-scientific people claimed the occurrence of miracles, or that with the massive advancement of the wonderful and powerful tools of science, we see those claimed "miracles" fully explainable in naturalistic terms?

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When looking at the topic of God's goodness and mercy, we also have to realize that God could sit back and do nothing. There are a lot of problems out there. Starvation, disease, death, war. The list could go on. When it comes right down to solid answers, I don't want to dodge the questions as this topic is about, but I really don't have the answers.

Yes, you do; but the answer (that your god is imaginary) is protected from you because of your "belief" and "faith".  As the old saying goes: "Believing is easier than thinking, thus so many more believers than thinkers."



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And this may sound like a cop-out, but I believe that the reason why God is God, and we are not, is because He knows better than we do. And though God may choose to not solve every problem that humanity has, like some sort of wish fountain, I also believe it wrong to blame God for humanity's problems.

Yes, it is a cop-out.  Once you cease to make excuses and rationalizations for your imaginary father figure, you will step over the chasm of childhood to adulthood, where you accept 100% responsibility for yourself.

"The idea of god was not a lie but a device of the unconscious which needed to be decoded by psychology. A personal god was nothing more than an exalted father-figure.  Desire for such a deity sprang from infantile yearnings for a powerful, protective father; for justice and fairness and for life to go on forever. God is simply a projection of these desires, feared and worshipped by human beings out of an abiding sense of helplessness. Religion belonged to the infancy of the human race; it had been a necessary stage in the transition from childhood to maturity. It had promoted ethical values which were essential to society. Now that humanity had come of age, however, it should be left behind."  (Sigmund Freud)


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If we are so much better and wiser than He is, then why haven't we solved world hunger?

We're not better. He doesn't exist.





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The fact is God is sovereign.

What does that mean?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdimK1onR4o



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He doesn't have to answer to us.

That sounds like an excuse and a rationalization.  It also sounds like you're just regurgitating stuff that's been fed to you from your church/family etc.


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I rely on God for everything.

This makes me angry.  For you don't rely on any deity, although you think you do, you rely on science.  For if you were to be born just a few hundred years ago, you'd likely have died at a young age, for all of the things you enjoy - including longevity - is due to the advancements of science.  This includes sanitary systems, dentistry, clean water, technology, and the massive advancements of modern medicine.  Your god doesn't do anything.  All of our advancements are due to hard work.


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For some, that seems like stupidity. For me, it's comfort.

You might want to give that a little thought.  Yes, it must be comforting to shut one's mind to the "off" position, I know I did when I was a christian, but once you develop an appetite for what is "true" over what is comforting, the wild, supernatural and infantile beliefs of religion in general and christinsanity in particular become unpalatable.




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I know that no matter what happens to me, I don't have to worry about it because God will work it out.

Is that because you view your god as a father figure?  If so, I suggest that you are stuck in a state of infancy and dependency, and you will forever be wondering what's going to happen next, because hey, you're not charge of your life, your invisible, imaginary father figure in the sky has everything under control.



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But if God made everything obvious, well, we wouldn't have to choose Him. We would have no choice but to follow Him.

Not true.  Do you have the freedom to love/choose/follow the people that you meet?  What about Adam & Eve (although we know there was no Adam & Eve - that's a silly myth), but for the sake of argument, they knew god, but had free will to follow or not.  So again, I suggest that you're making excuses and rationalizations.


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Makes God look like everything is about Him. Makes Him look selfish. Of course it does. Everything is all about Him. He's God. Doesn't that make sense? If I created all of everything, I would expect it to be all about me to. But I am powerless to do so. That's why I am not God. So I simply render praise and glory to where praise and glory is due.

Again, it sounds like you have father issues.



Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: jdawg70 on January 09, 2014, 11:27:17 PM
As for me, I would rather put my faith in God who has yet to fail me (and no that will not change if I lose my legs) rather than people who I know fail me on a daily basis. Heck, I fail MYSELF on a daily basis.
Could you create a hypothetical scenario that you may experience where god does fail you?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: xyzzy on January 10, 2014, 12:07:37 AM
I mean, we can look at anything anymore and find an alternative explanation for it right? Perhaps we don't see miracles anymore because we choose to not look for them?

Star Stuff left you quite some things to ponder, so I'm to ask you about this sentence.

For, you see, ralonx, I think you have that exactly back-to-front. Science is a process by which we understand the world around us. If we find alternative explanations, that's because the previous explanation was either faulty, or incorrect. The scientific endeavor is simply moving forwards with real-world explanations. If that displaces age-old superstitions, well that's the price of progress.

In terms of looking, we are actually looking more closer and in more depth and detail than ever before. We're also looking further into space. However, the more we study this universe the less it needs gods. In fact, science has overturned so many ancient beliefs, often attributed to a god. But the number of times that process has worked in reverse - where a religious explanation has trumped a scientific one - is exactly - zero.

Moreover, Christians (for example) are being forced to look wider and wider to find their miracles. It's getting harder and harder to find a decent miracle with which to support a believer's faith.

In fact, things that happen to everyone else are now the new miracle.

Here's the same example as seen by an atheist and a believer.  Someone gets sick, is rushed to the hospital, surgeon performs emergency procedure, life is saved. Modern medicine is pretty, damn, amazing.

Same things happens to the miracle-believing Christian. This time, though, it's a miracle, god saved his life. God is great. It wasn't the surgeon who went to med school, completed his residency, his fellowships and still wasn't done 10 years down the road. Nooo, it was god wot did it.

ralonx, is that what you mean by not looking though? Things that I'd ascribe to the processes operating in the natural world, but you'd see as being the hand of god? If not, what did you mean?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Ataraxia on January 10, 2014, 02:53:55 AM
So on the topic of miracles. It was brought up that with more technology, and provable means, miracles seem to happen less. I would not be inclined to say that they happen less. But perhaps it is that God does them, and we try to explain them away? I'm just putting that thought out there, I know that won't fly in a forum like this, so please don't think that I thought that would end the discussion lol. I mean, we can look at anything anymore and find an alternative explanation for it right? Perhaps we don't see miracles anymore because we choose to not look for them?

OK - miracles. Straight away you've put yourself on the same page as Mooby. So I ask you, what method do you use to falsify miracle claims? How do you know what is a miracle and what isn't a miracle? For example, can the sky appear blue naturally or does it take a miraculous intervention for it to appear blue?
See, just because something appears to be the common norm, like the sky being blue, doesn't mean that it can be via natural means alone. Even if we have a natural explanation, it has no bearing on whether or not there is a miracle behind that controlling it.
A miracle isn't an observable phenomenon in nature, it is a tinkering of nature where only the observable effects can be seen. We don't observe god pulling all the levers and pushing all the buttons, we only see the effects they have. So, to repeat, what method do you use to falsify when god is playing with the controls of nature?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on January 10, 2014, 04:01:30 AM
Well I won't respond to anyone's comment specifically.....When it comes right down to solid answers, I don't want to dodge the questions as this topic is about, but I really don't have the answers.....at least I'm answering a direct question with a direct answer

And the direct answer is "I don't know".  Fair enough. 

You do realise you therefore have given us no reason to accept anything you may want to claim about your god?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on January 10, 2014, 04:10:59 AM
The only scripture that we have to answer why God withholds blessing from some, and gives it to another, is a book that makes some mad and some uneasy when mentioned: The book of Job.

It doesn't make me uneasy at all - it makes me sad that so many Christians cite it as an example of how wonderful their god is, without apparently considering the book at all.

The book says (as you say) that your god can do what he wants with man.
It says that - when someone challenges him - he will happily dish out all manner of terrible events on someone who was trying to do everything right.

The book tells us that whatever you do to make god happy, if it suits his purpose, he will slam you down.

For me, it's comfort. I know that no matter what happens to me, I don't have to worry about it because God will work it out.

Tomorrow, the adversay will go see your god and say "you know what?  The reason the whole Job thing didn't work it because we didn't take it far enough.  Betcha if I went for ralonx, I could unleash enough hell on him to make him question you".

In your understanding, what would your god do?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: harbinger77 on January 10, 2014, 02:25:20 PM
Star stuff...
your reply to "God doesn't owe us an answer" was the following...
"That sounds like an excuse and a rationalization. It also sounds like you're just regurgitating stuff that's been fed to you from your church/family etc."
I assume then you take the opposite view. The extreme being no God of course. Which from your view may have been a better answer. However, your response seems to come from a different place. So this is the question.
Why then should the creator of all that is known and unknown owe you an answer for anything? So that you may judge the actions perhaps? What makes you the judge of God?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Star Stuff on January 10, 2014, 02:33:03 PM
What makes you the judge of God?

The same thing that makes me the judge of the thousands of other gods (http://www.godchecker.com/) man has created.

You make the common colossal error in concluding at the get-go that your god exists, and then strut around like some proud rooster asking everyone to disprove your wild, fantastical, unsubstantiated claim.  Can you please see how not only bankrupt that position is, but also the utter arrogance?

But all that aside, what exactly do you mean when you say "god"?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 10, 2014, 03:32:33 PM
What makes you the judge of God?

I am judgeing purported actions. Whether or not said actions come from your favored mythological deity aren't really relevant to my judgement as to whether or not those action constitute moral behavior or villiany. The relative power of those that did said action doesn't matter; it is called being an adult.



Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: SevenPatch on January 10, 2014, 05:26:45 PM
What makes you the judge of God?

I'm curious harbinger77, could you please answer your own question?

You have to make a judgment about God in order to answer the question "does the creater of all that is known and unknown owe anyone an answer for anything?".

If someone answers yes, then we can ask your next question:

Why then should the creator of all that is known and unknown owe you an answer for anything?

Which we would have to make another judgement.

If someone answers no, then we could ask "Why shouldn't the creator of all that is known and unknown owe anyone an answer for anything?.  In order to answer that question, further judgement must be made.

So that you may judge the actions perhaps?

Do you not judge the actions of God?  Whether they are good or bad actions?  Whether they are God's actions or not?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ralonx on January 10, 2014, 10:44:10 PM

Tomorrow, the adversay will go see your god and say "you know what?  The reason the whole Job thing didn't work it because we didn't take it far enough.  Betcha if I went for ralonx, I could unleash enough hell on him to make him question you".

In your understanding, what would your god do?

Just as a quick note before I answer that question, I believe I was falsely accused of quoting the book of Job to say how wonderful and merciful God is. I didn't say that. I referenced it to show his sovereignty (literally to "over" and "reign" or to rule over everything. To be in control of everything). The book of Job shows his sovereignty. Might it also be known that God at no point causes anything to happen to Job. He simply allows Satan to do it. The book calls attention to God's headship and control over every facet of creation, including the protection of his children as Satan had to ask permission of God before he could do anything to Job. God also reserves the right to not have to answer to mankind as is mentioned in the later chapters of Job. So I just wanted to clearify that part.

Well I suppose my answer for a hypothical question like the above quoted one would be "hypothetically I don't know". Well if it did happen, I suppose I would just pray for the strength to make it through or pray for the perseverance to die clinging to my faith. Because if this hypothetical situation happened, then that would mean without a shadow of a doubt that God would exist. And then my faith wouldn't be so dumb to everyone :) If this is a situation God has to use to prove to you that he exists and bring you to a place where you choose to follow him, then I say bring it on, because your spiritual eternity is more important to me than my physical well being. If my body can be destroyed to save one other person from an eternity in hell, well then price well paid in my eyes. Jesus did it for me, so it would be an honour for me to be able to do that for someone else.

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ralonx on January 10, 2014, 11:12:08 PM
What makes you the judge of God?

I'm curious harbinger77, could you please answer your own question?

You have to make a judgment about God in order to answer the question "does the creater of all that is known and unknown owe anyone an answer for anything?".

If someone answers yes, then we can ask your next question:

Why then should the creator of all that is known and unknown owe you an answer for anything?

Which we would have to make another judgement.

If someone answers no, then we could ask "Why shouldn't the creator of all that is known and unknown owe anyone an answer for anything?.  In order to answer that question, further judgement must be made.

So that you may judge the actions perhaps?

Do you not judge the actions of God?  Whether they are good or bad actions?  Whether they are God's actions or not?

Seven Patch. You ask him to answer the questions as if they were really questions?

To answer the first question: "does the creator of all that is known and unknown owe anyone an answer for anything?" Well the retorical answer would be "no". That's because He is the creator of everything.

Because I'm assuming you don't believe in God, let's put forth the hypothetical view that you came to the realization that an all mighty creator existed. Why would He have to answer to you for anything? Or to anyone? He created it. It's His. The fact that He is all powerful, all knowing, and all present dictates that He could do whatever He wanted, whenever He wanted, however He wanted, and not have to answer for it. That's what makes Him God.

To answer the second question see above answer. He doesn't owe anyone an answer because He created everything. period. If He wanted to destroy it tomorrow, He can, what would we be able to do about it? Debate with Him? Fire nukes at Him? Yell at Him? We have no control and no power. Therefore, the only right we have to speak is given to us by this almighty creator.

To answer the final question, this is what I have been talking about for the past 4 days. We cannot ask a question of God like "why do you allow bad things to happen to good people" because we CANNOT judge His actions. As Christians, we do not judge His actions. We assume that all the things He does is right and good. Why? Because He makes the rules. If there is an almighty God, then He would be the standard of good and evil.

See the reason Christians don't make sense to people who don't believe is because people who don't believe think we are blinded by faith. Blindly assuming that all that God does is good. It's not that we are blind. We see things the same way everyone else does. Hence the WHOLE book of psalms, Habakkuk, Jeremiah, Lamentations, etc. Fairly often God's actions DON'T make sense to us. But if you believe in an almighty God, then you must trust that He knows what He is doing. The other alternative if one believes in an almighty God, is to think that one is smarter than He is. Which would not make sense if this almighty God creates truth as well. 

The other alternative is to refuse to believe in a God at all. Which is a viable choice as well. And we won't know who made the right call until we die I guess. If I'm wrong, then I give all the people in this forum full permission to laugh at me from....well wherever we are...black nothingness I guess....or grass....I don't know. What do you guys believe happens after we die anyway? Since I've been sharing my beliefs all this time, what do you guys believe happens when you die? Reincarnation? Circle of life? I honestly don't know? Or do you have a belief about it? Just wondering what kind of beliefs we have out there?


Oh and one final side note......"Star stuff". DO NOT insult my intelligence by saying that I simply regurgitate things fed to me by my family and church. I'll have you know that my faith is based on a life pursuit of truth, integrity, and knowledge. God is simply the only one that makes sense to me. That is not based on brainwashing, but a lifetime spent in the love and guidance of my creator and saviour Jesus Christ. Before you presume to think that someone is "lesser" than you, or stupidly regurgitating things, you should think again. I don't want to speak for a moderator, but I believed this forum was for debate, not slander and insults. Apart from being just rude, comments like this are foul play in a debate. Discrediting my character will not make anything appear more true. Please refrain from saying that my responses are regurgitated things that I am incapable of coming up with myself. I would appreciate that you treat me and the other people on this forum with respect and dignity. It is one thing to say that you believe someone to be wrong. It is another thing to say that you think they are stupid for believing what they believe. Or should I quote "Infantile".
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: SevenPatch on January 10, 2014, 11:47:49 PM
Tim,

Every one of your answers is a judgement.  You are judging that God does not owe us an answer.

It doesn't even matter if I was Christian and believed God exists, I would still judge that God owes an answer to my questions.

Why is it okay for you to judge?

Simply discussing God is making a judgment.  To even believe God exists you have to make a judgement about God.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: RED_ApeTHEIST on January 11, 2014, 12:13:11 AM
To answer the first question: "does the creator of all that is known and unknown owe anyone an answer for anything?" Well the retorical answer would be "no". That's because He is the creator of everything.

You don't believe that an individual is responsible for their actions then?

Why would He have to answer to you for anything? Or to anyone? He created it. It's His. The fact that He is all powerful, all knowing, and all present dictates that He could do whatever He wanted, whenever He wanted, however He wanted, and not have to answer for it. That's what makes Him God.

In what way does having great ability absolve you of the responsibility in the use of that ability? Because of the omniscience? I don't think that works because, traditionally, having foreknowledge of the results of your actions makes you more responsible for those results not less.

If I make a child, then I owe them certain things because I am responsible for their existence. Why does god get a pass in the same situation?


The fact is, that you have to start with the supposition that your god is benevolent, otherwise none of the rest of your arguments work. At the same time, you provide no evidence that your supposition is valid. Why should anyone pay you any attention if you cant make an argument without presupposing your conclusion?

"God is good, therefore all of his actions are good, and we know that god is good because all of his actions are good"

Right...If you based your faith around a pursuit of truth and integrity then you would recognize circular logic when you use it.

Star stuff doesn't have to assume that you're full of it. He can tell by your comments.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Traveler on January 11, 2014, 12:19:08 AM
ralonx, you say he can do whatever he wants and not answer to it. That sounds like a petty dictator to me. I treat my animals better than what you're implying about your god. In fact, I treat my friends, my family, heck, even my shoes better than you're describing. If I make something, especially something that lives, breathes and feels, I will take good care of it. To do less is to be, quite frankly, pretty darn evil.

Children who are abused think the abuser is all powerful, but good, because they have to in order to survive. I find it terribly sad that some christians describe their god as if he's an abusive parent.

This primitive, immature idea of a god has got to GO if the human race is to move forward.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: DVZ3 on January 11, 2014, 01:01:22 AM
Oh and one final side note......"Star stuff". DO NOT insult my intelligence by saying that I simply regurgitate things fed to me by my family and church.

He comes in here with a claim of god this god that, Jesus died for sins and has the nerve to say we insulted his intelligence... Wow, just wow...
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 11, 2014, 01:07:19 AM
I learned today that if some mod comes along and deletes a post it even vanishes from my personal history. I agree that The mod should have some rights if we get off topic to move a post. I think it shows quite a bias to DELETE the one that may have had roots in the "rabbit trail" but was at the heart, back on topic!



But, of course, you don't give a fig about the disingenuous snipping in you "preserved" accusation of bias. Heck,  when I asked you a direct question of how you treat the Iliad...I got evasion. This only further demonstrates the original point and title of the thread.

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: DVZ3 on January 11, 2014, 01:16:49 AM

Unfortunate but true joke of the day and our society: Christians are like the protons of an atom, they're always positive!

I suppose the real joke is on everyone else who doesn't buy gods door to door girl scout cookies that we're baked for our sins.  :-\
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: skeptic54768 on January 11, 2014, 02:42:53 AM
Tim,

Every one of your answers is a judgement.  You are judging that God does not owe us an answer.

I would like to jump in here.

Let me make the response to this as simple as possible:

God by definition is PERFECT. Therefore, everything God does is PERFECT. You may personally think God's actions are wrong, but then you would basically be admitting that you are MORE PERFECT than a PERFECT being.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 11, 2014, 03:07:45 AM


God by definition is PERFECT. Therefore, everything God does is PERFECT.

And since I can think of better ways of handling things than your alleged PERFECT being, said being does not exist. By Definition.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: SevenPatch on January 11, 2014, 04:07:43 AM
Tim,

Every one of your answers is a judgement.  You are judging that God does not owe us an answer.

I would like to jump in here.

Let me make the response to this as simple as possible:

God by definition is PERFECT. Therefore, everything God does is PERFECT. You may personally think God's actions are wrong, but then you would basically be admitting that you are MORE PERFECT than a PERFECT being.

Okay, so you judge God's actions to be right.

What makes you the judge of God?


I've asked that question a few times now and have not gotten an answer.  The response so far from theists is that I can't judge God while the theist can.

Why is this?

The answer is that theists project themselves as God.  The reason a theist can judge God is because the theist IS God.  Any judgement the theist makes of God is the same judgement that God would make.  I can't judge God because I can't judge the theist.  I can't judge that God owes me an answer to my questions because the theist certainly doesn't owe me anything let alone an answer.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on January 11, 2014, 04:26:43 AM
I referenced (Job) to show his sovereignty (literally to "over" and "reign" or to rule over everything. To be in control of everything). The book of Job shows his sovereignty.

Yep.  Shows he will do what he wants to anyone, regardless of what they try to do.  Hence trying to do the right thing is irrelevant.

Might it also be known that God at no point causes anything to happen to Job. He simply allows Satan to do it.

Yup.  Hence rendering the whole book moot.  We KNOW Satan does bad stuff, Job knew it.  So bad stuff happening because of Satan is a no-brainer.

All Job shows is that you can try the hardest you can to do what your god wants, and he will screw you over just because he can.  Sure - that's sovreignity ( or dictatorship), but it shows zero love or benevolence.  And if I were to worship a god, those are the qualities I would worship, not some brutal "might makes right".
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: RED_ApeTHEIST on January 11, 2014, 09:28:11 AM


God by definition is PERFECT. Therefore, everything God does is PERFECT.

And since I can think of better ways of handling things than your alleged PERFECT being, said being does not exist. By Definition.

I'd like to jump in on your jumping in.

Firstly; there is no one definition of god, so saying that god is "by definition" anything is questionable right from the get go.

Secondly; perfection is subjective and as such cannot exist in objective reality. If your god is "perfect" then it is much less likely to exist than if it were flawed.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Tero on January 11, 2014, 09:42:39 AM
To the opening post:
Why would you ask theists these questions in the first place? There are not going to be any answers you haven't seen before. "It was God's will." Etc
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Azdgari on January 11, 2014, 09:46:00 AM
Tim,

Every one of your answers is a judgement.  You are judging that God does not owe us an answer.

I would like to jump in here.

Let me make the response to this as simple as possible:

God by definition is PERFECT. Therefore, everything God does is PERFECT. You may personally think God's actions are wrong, but then you would basically be admitting that you are MORE PERFECT than a PERFECT being.

What qualifies you to judge and declare perfection?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on January 11, 2014, 09:50:08 AM
To the opening post:
Why would you ask theists these questions in the first place? There are not going to be any answers you haven't seen before. "It was God's will." Etc

Optimism.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Star Stuff on January 11, 2014, 10:30:30 AM
Oh and one final side note......"Star stuff". DO NOT insult my intelligence by saying that I simply regurgitate things fed to me by my family and church.

I wasn't insulting you, I was describing you.  Please appreciate that I too was once a christian (yes, a "true" christian).  I was born and raised in it, so I'm quite familiar with the tired old yarns that you emit, and recognize them as regurgitation.  That's not an insult, it's an observation.



Quote
I'll have you know that my faith is based on a life pursuit of truth, integrity, and knowledge. God is simply the only one that makes sense to me.

Interesting; what were the good reasons you came across that were convincing to you, and that are not convincing to 95% of the members of the Academy of Science?  What do you know that they don't?  I don't doubt your integrity, I doubt your beliefs, for they have ZERO evidence and reason to back them up. They are separate from "you".



Quote
That is not based on brainwashing, but a lifetime spent in the love and guidance of my creator and saviour Jesus Christ.

So let me ask you: Were you born & raised in a christian home?  I'm wondering too.....what is your approximate age?



Quote
Before you presume to think that someone is "lesser" than you, or stupidly regurgitating things, you should think again.

Where did I say that I thought you were less than me?  We're dealing with your beliefs and assertions, and it would be helpful (for you) to accept that those beliefs and assertions are not free from critical inquiry.



Quote
I don't want to speak for a moderator.....

I don't moderate.  Due to the technical guts of this forum, it was necessary to give me "Moderator" status in order for me to have access and control over the "Quote of the Day" thread.  That is the extent of the "Moderator" badge for me.  So I'm just a regular person.



Quote
Please refrain from saying that my responses are regurgitated things that I am incapable of coming up with myself.

But you didn't come up with it yourself.  I've heard it all a million times before.  It's as though theists are robots who repeat all the same nonsensical rationalizations and excuses over, and over, and over.  It's what fed the believer from the pulpit, apologetics, and myriad other forms within the christian bubble.   It's painful.  But, I fully understand, for I used to say the same old things myself when my mind was turned to stone by faith.  I was credulous due to being young and was weak in my critical thinking skills.  That was a long time ago, and I look back on it with utter embarrassment.



Quote
I would appreciate that you treat me and the other people on this forum with respect and dignity. It is one thing to say that you believe someone to be wrong. It is another thing to say that you think they are stupid for believing what they believe. Or should I quote "Infantile".

Given the wild, supernatural claims you're making (all without a shred of evidence) you're getting that in spades.
Again, you need to separate "you" from your beliefs and assertions.  If your beliefs and assertions are infantile, then they ought not to receive protection from having that pointed out.  It is possible that you too will one day wake up from the delusion of faith, and you will then be able to look back and see that "you" are indeed separate from those old supernatural beliefs.

I'll leave you with this old beauty on respect:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPAC_cGVnUg
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 11, 2014, 03:09:57 PM

I wasn't insulting you, I was describing you.

Unfortunately these two things "insulting" and "describing" are not mutually exclusive.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: OldChurchGuy on January 11, 2014, 04:57:40 PM
I find this over and over again on this forum - what seems to be the simplest and directest question takes pages and pages of dodging and backsliding and ignoring until - maybe - you finally get an answer.

I'm sure there is a lot of discussion to be had about the psychology of it all, but I'm interested in a different question.

If there IS a god out there, and that god is as just and right and GOOD as most believers would have us believe - then why is all the dodging necessary in the first place?  Surely a god so good, so perfect, so right, would lead to discussions along the lines of:

Anfauglir: Can you explain why your god.....
Believer: (firmly) Yes.  It is because.....(specific and direct answer).
Anfauglir:  Ah, I see - that makes perfect sense.  Thank you.

Now THAT kind of god - the one where there was no need to dodge, no need to prevaricate, no need to shy away from "awkward" questions......THAT is a god that I could really get behind.  But these gods who are so tricksy, so convoluted, so demonstrative of so many negative behaviours that their believers have to dodge the questions and go into such lengthy apologetics......well, there just seems something suspicious about it all.

A truly good, truly godly god, would be very unlikely to raise any of these questions in the first place.  And it certainly wouldn't require the degree of evasion and goal-post shifting that we see so much of on these forums. 

If there was a truly good and godly god, it would be clear.  No nagging doubts, no endless arguments.  It would be clear and obvious to all.  The fact that it isn't may not necessarily mean there isn't a god out there.  But it sure makes it clear that there is something seriously wrong with the picture.

I don't have a good answer other than the irritating "it depends". 

Some of the questions posed here seem worded in such a way that clarification is needed.  Sometimes the questions seem almost like a trap that no matter how it is answered the reply will not be sufficient. 

For me, I try to answer the question directly but often times am left with the answer "I don't know".  I can offer an opinion or a speculation but rarely does theology lend itself to absolute certainty. 

It would be nice if God had provided a set of If-Then instructions that would allow the world to operate like a well coded software program.  But it is not there.

I had good intentions to say something of importance but I fear all I have done is added to your frustration.

Respectfully,

OldChurchGuy
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: jaimehlers on January 11, 2014, 05:03:26 PM
^I don't know is a perfectly acceptable answer to a direct question, OCG.  I wish more people were willing to admit that they didn't know for sure instead of trying to pretend that they do know (and digging themselves deeper).  I was really bad about that when I was younger - I would very often claim that I knew something that someone had just explained to me in order to avoid looking like I didn't know.

I wish more of the theists on this forum would take you as an inspiration of how to act.  Whatever I think about your theology, your humility about it is very impressive.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: OldChurchGuy on January 11, 2014, 05:14:42 PM
^I don't know is a perfectly acceptable answer to a direct question, OCG.  I wish more people were willing to admit that they didn't know for sure instead of trying to pretend that they do know (and digging themselves deeper).  I was really bad about that when I was younger - I would very often claim that I knew something that someone had just explained to me in order to avoid looking like I didn't know.

I wish more of the theists on this forum would take you as an inspiration of how to act.  Whatever I think about your theology, your humility about it is very impressive.

Approximately 30 years of teaching High School and Adult level Sunday School classes quickly taught me that "I don't know" was the only answer I had.  That and the follow up, "But I will look it up and get back with you".  Which I did because, quite often, I was intrigued with the answer also. 

Your kind words are truly appreciated.  With very very VERY few exceptions, the participants on this web site have been nothing but wonderful to exchange ideas and information with.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: DVZ3 on January 11, 2014, 05:29:22 PM
I find when reading threads like these with theists answering questions with the answer being god and inserting god into everything that would happen even without that added logic and complexity. Also, your never learning anything new. It's the same old story told over and over again like preprogrammed robots.

"Jesus died for your sins"
"he loves you...."

Ok, but what information does that leave you with really?  I'm not learning anything new about the universe but just accepting the program installed on so many other people.

Sorry if I don't accept your program as an acceptable answer to all of our toughest questions in life.  That great that you installed a program of knowledge based on the version the very same people were running without any of today's technology innovations to better inform us of how our universe actually works. The real knowledge and story is so much more complete and detailed than the book of Genesis and far more interesting even though we're still missing middle pieces of the puzzle to be sure.

But why would you want to accept the program that virtually programs you to deny solidified and ever more concrete theories like evolution? Why run a program where new knowledge may in fact challenge your program causing your robot circuits to short out and start stomping your feet like child that doesn't get their way... Like the very same program that can't even consider gays as equals in this beautiful thing we call life but because of your old program our society seemingly always has to fight and struggle for the real knowledge to gain any sort of traction or people's basic human rights being challenged because of people that claim a PERFECT god said so...  :-\

I questioned Christianity at a very early age but never actually wanted to come out sort of speak to my family for quite a while. It's very easy to play the robot as I did it and went to church, sang songs, clapped my hands etc... In the end I found and felt i was mimicking the program but knew that's all it was - other people mimicking the previous actions of others for generations and some have now have a very strong connection to it, I get that.

Anyways, what I find sad is from my personal experience talking with other "generic" majority Christians is that they don't want to bother to discuss theories of the big bang, evolution or other commonly accepted ideas as they just want to keeps things simple, like the program.

If you look at my sig below I find that many people just want to believe because it's an easier thought process. It's great to have Christian members like Old Church Guy, but I find he's a very, very rare breed of Christian that ever witnessed. I would think even he would agree with me on that...

If you read and actually understand the OP question please excuse me from really caring if and how you respond. I am most certain your post will come with no new information or angle that hasn't been used before by others. I am certain because again, you're seemingly a program running but use different language to the approach based on your own life's experience and observations which just happen to be different enough for discussion but theynare really all the same discussions heard before on this site.

I apologize up front if I've offended your program as its just an observation over time on this site.

Also, I just want to leave you with a final thought. Since you believe your god is perfect and you believe and love god, then you never have to really apologize for anything in life do you because he forgives you.  That's a very powerful program to be installed indeed. I could see why many find it appealing.



Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: DVZ3 on January 11, 2014, 05:33:16 PM
Wow, what a coincidence as I just seen the posts just after I wrote up mine... Point Exactly! I guess deep down more Christians would answer just "I don't know" vs the angle and/or program to know everything even if you have to make it up like a parent with a curious child.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 11, 2014, 08:56:38 PM
It is one thing to say that you believe someone to be wrong. It is another thing to say that you think they are stupid for believing what they believe. Or should I quote "Infantile".

Faith is just a warm fuzzy expression for what the concept really represents; credulousness. If someone believes something that is stupid, when I interact with that person regarding said subject, I will find them to be stupid. If that is the only interaction I have with that person, that will be the basis of my opinion of their intelligence and their character.

For example, their was a woman who I worked in the same building as me. While I am turned to by a lot of my co workers about a particular field of law, when I was stumped in the field, I turned to her. She didn't know squat outside of that field of law...but she had memorized the law book and most of the case law in that field. She was a kind, just, charitable, and a personable human being. She was also a young earth creationist. I think her belief in young earth creationism was, to put it bluntly, stupid. However, since she had so many other positive qualities and she had proven her knowledge in her specialty, it wasn't my opinion of her as a whole. However, if the only experience I had with her was her young earth creationism, my opinion of her would be just "she is stupid." And I would be justified in having that opinion, until such evidence was presented about her other qualities, or that I was mistaken about young earth creationism.







Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ralonx on January 11, 2014, 11:48:20 PM
I just simply don't have time to respond to everything here. Seven patch you stated that you were frustrated how you couldn't get an answer about us judging God correct? We don't. The response about God's perfection came from Scripture. Which is inspired by God. So in a round-about way, God said it. Not me, nor Harbinger, God.

To further exemplify what I'm saying, another comment was about my response about God caring more about our spiritual well being than our physical. That is not me "giving Him my own personality". That comes from the Bible. Want an exact quote for that? Mark 9:43 " If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—" Jesus' words, not mine.

Also on the topic of dodging questions, I found mine still not answered either? What do you people believe about the after life?

While we are also on the topic of not insulting and simply making observations, can I ask why all of the above responding people even care about any of this? If I start a forum about "Why don't fairies grant my wishes?" are any of you going to come over to it and start debating people? I would hope not. That would be a sorry waste of time because it's not even worth debating. IF I am some apparently infantile. IF I am so blind and ridiculous for believing something apparently so outrageously stupid, why are you guys wasting time you could be spending with your family and friends debating this stuff? You don't believe it. You don't even think it an intelligent belief system. Why do you care? Is it to try and squash beliefs in God? Why don't you set up a forum against Muslims, Buddhists, Voodoo, Hindus? Why just Christianity? Or is there a community for forums against those ones as well that I am not aware of. That's possible. I just don't get it. If it really is that dumb, why waste your time? I'm here cause I'm defending what I believe. Why are you here? Just food for thought is all.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Traveler on January 12, 2014, 12:15:41 AM
Ralonx, all atheism is, is a lack of god belief. You cannot make any other assumptions. That said, most, if not all, atheists do not believe in any afterlife. When our bodies die our consciousness ends. We no longer exist as anything but leftover parts.

As for this site, it was started by an american. America, these days, has become overrun with rightwing religious zealots in our government. They are trying to take us backwards in time, undoing much of the progress that was made during my lifetime. If christians would respect everyone else's rights there might not be a wwgha forum. But they don't. They try to impose their beliefs on everyone else. I, for one, will not stand for that.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: DVZ3 on January 12, 2014, 12:23:40 AM
@ralonx

It's interesting so many theists come to this conclusion and ask this question and I'm surprised they can't understand why.  I've heard this one countless times, especially from my own family members.

Anyways, in short, it's because we seek the TRUTH? Why is this so difficult to comprehend!? :-\

Because it's nonsense that people believe this. More importantly, it's what controls today's politics and what is considered right/wrong, moral/immoral etc... Laws are made based on people believing nonsense. From stem cell research to birth control politicians use god as their high ground of authority on everything.

Also, to many theists, at least the ones I've known and met, the very thought of a person being an atheist makes them an evil person. These and many others are the very reason for the discussion and this site - to make people actually think and use deductive reasoning skills.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 12, 2014, 12:24:59 AM
I am so blind and ridiculous for believing something apparently so outrageously stupid, why are you guys wasting time you could be spending with your family and friends debating this stuff? You don't believe it. You don't even think it an intelligent belief system. Why do you care?

We've been asked this one many times. I am going to use an analogy and story I have put together

Quote
Imagine a popular fictional novel series came out, lets say The Harry Potter Series.

Now imagine that people everywhere started talking about said series and started forming organizations about discussing it. The organizations declare that Magic and Hogwarts really exist.

Everywhere you go there are people handing out fliers about "defence from the dark arts.” They even wake you up Saturday morning to try to convince you to join house Hufflepuff.

These organizations lobby for tax free status, and insist that schools acknowledge the existence of magic…and politicians who are part of the organizations grant it to them.

Magic is added to school textbooks.

In order for anyone to be taken seriously in politics they have to declare there allegiance to Hogwart’s.
 
Now when things happen, said politicians say “It's Dumbledore’s will.”

Wars are fought over the followers of House Gryffindore versus the followers of House Slytherin. People die for their faith in the books.

People regularly forsake medicine for magic. And whomever declares themselves a wizard and gets a wizard license is granted societal respect. They ask for donations for the further promotion of magic and get them.

Billions of dollars worth.

When you tell them It is just well written fiction” people snort about you being just a muggle, and some even declare you a dark wizard posing as a muggle. You even get slightly discriminated against, and find it hard to find a mate who doesn't think the books are real.

Now…imagine this going on for decades.

Would you be angry with the followers of the Harry Potter books? Make fun of them?
Of course you would.

Is it to try and squash beliefs in God? Why don't you set up a forum against Muslims, Buddhists, Voodoo, Hindus? Why just Christianity? Or is there a community for forums against those ones as well that I am not aware of. That's possible. I just don't get it. If it really is that dumb, why waste your time? I'm here cause I'm defending what I believe. Why are you here? Just food for thought is all.

Actually while Christians are the majority, we have had the occasional Jew and Muslim. They get the same treatment because all the questions apply equally.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: DVZ3 on January 12, 2014, 12:41:48 AM
@ralonx

Slavery took a few hundred years and generations of struggling for what's right and common sense to prevail. It's sad that a civil war where thousands had to lose their lives for this actually thinking about it today, but yes it happened. I take pride now to participate in the new "free the mind slaves" (at least from the very far right for now) knowing that even today, the new, younger generation with access to the internet and information will hopefully only take a few more generations for even more common sense to prevail.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: harbinger77 on January 12, 2014, 01:13:22 AM
I am so blind and ridiculous for believing something apparently so outrageously stupid, why are you guys wasting time you could be spending with your family and friends debating this stuff? You don't believe it. You don't even think it an intelligent belief system. Why do you care?

We've been asked this one many times. I am going to use an analogy and story I have put together

Quote
Imagine a popular fictional novel series came out, lets say The Harry Potter Series.

Now imagine that people everywhere started talking about said series and started forming organizations about discussing it. The organizations declare that Magic and Hogwarts really exist.

Everywhere you go there are people handing out fliers about "defence from the dark arts.” They even wake you up Saturday morning to try to convince you to join house Hufflepuff.

These organizations lobby for tax free status, and insist that schools acknowledge the existence of magic…and politicians who are part of the organizations grant it to them.

Magic is added to school textbooks.

In order for anyone to be taken seriously in politics they have to declare there allegiance to Hogwart’s.
 
Now when things happen, said politicians say “It's Dumbledore’s will.”

Wars are fought over the followers of House Gryffindore versus the followers of House Slytherin. People die for their faith in the books.

People regularly forsake medicine for magic. And whomever declares themselves a wizard and gets a wizard license is granted societal respect. They ask for donations for the further promotion of magic and get them.

Billions of dollars worth.

When you tell them It is just well written fiction” people snort about you being just a muggle, and some even declare you a dark wizard posing as a muggle. You even get slightly discriminated against, and find it hard to find a mate who doesn't think the books are real.

Now…imagine this going on for decades.

Would you be angry with the followers of the Harry Potter books? Make fun of them?
Of course you would.

Is it to try and squash beliefs in God? Why don't you set up a forum against Muslims, Buddhists, Voodoo, Hindus? Why just Christianity? Or is there a community for forums against those ones as well that I am not aware of. That's possible. I just don't get it. If it really is that dumb, why waste your time? I'm here cause I'm defending what I believe. Why are you here? Just food for thought is all.

Actually while Christians are the majority, we have had the occasional Jew and Muslim. They get the same treatment because all the questions apply equally.

Your analogy is witty. Kudos I think you once posed it to me at least in part.

I think the question I find most interesting is while people like me are indeed here defending or faith. That's obvious.

Why are you here.. discussing the fine details of page 214 and how best to show the wizards of hogwarts that magic is fake? complete game plans... counterpoints to counterpoints discussed on various threads. Why? I ask again how is tthis not proselytizing for your (lack of) faith?
food for thought...
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: DVZ3 on January 12, 2014, 01:14:49 AM

^^^ Prayer doesn't work and neither do magic wands; it's really that simple.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 12, 2014, 01:22:09 AM
Why are you here.. discussing the fine details of page 214 and how best to show the wizards of hogwarts that magic is fake? complete game plans... counterpoints to counterpoints discussed on various threads. Why? I ask again how is tthis not proselytizing for your (lack of) faith?
food for thought...

Well you see, when a mom and a dad love each other very much...
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: harbinger77 on January 12, 2014, 01:24:21 AM
@ralonx

Slavery took a few hundred years and generations of struggling for what's right and common sense to prevail. It's sad that a civil war where thousands had to lose their lives for this actually thinking about it today, but yes it happened. I take pride now to participate in the new "free the mind slaves" (at least from the very far right for now) knowing that even today, the new, younger generation with access to the internet and information will hopefully only take a few more generations for even more common sense to prevail.

This is an answer. An individual answer. A stand. I can respect that much. I guess it pleases you to know for some odd reason Homeland security named the fundamental Christian public enemy #1 in America. I think 2013. As a US soldier I can't pray with my men in public. I can't see my chaplain in public. Unless I'm NOT Christian. Christian services are canceled on many stateside bases. We are quickly being driven out by force. While other religions are allowed to stay. Maybe the "war" is not so far away.... This is Prophesy. Right in front of you. You are even part of it. The really sad thing is that you don't even know what i'm talking about.... Good luck! You will need it as the day approaches. To bad I don't believe in luck though. Only providence.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 12, 2014, 01:27:39 AM
As a US soldier I can't pray with my men in public. I can't see my chaplain in public. Unless I'm NOT Christian.

Hogwash, you have the legal right to do such things, provided it does not use government resources and that you accept any consequences.

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: jaimehlers on January 12, 2014, 01:42:01 AM
Your analogy is witty. Kudos I think you once posed it to me at least in part.

I think the question I find most interesting is while people like me are indeed here defending or faith. That's obvious.
Right.  It's human nature to continue to believe things even if we see evidence against them.

Quote from: harbinger77
Why are you here.. discussing the fine details of page 214 and how best to show the wizards of hogwarts that magic is fake? complete game plans... counterpoints to counterpoints discussed on various threads. Why? I ask again how is tthis not proselytizing for your (lack of) faith?
food for thought...
Because people like you constantly interfere with people like him, even if you don't realize it.  Not only that, but people like you interfere with the society we all live in, and try to foist your own narrow interpretation of your religion's rules off on everyone.  People like you consider people like him to be strange, deviant, even dangerous.  Trying to get people like you to stop causing problems for people like him is not proselytization, any more than if I spoke up against a group that I disliked.  I wouldn't be trying to promote some counter-group, and he isn't trying to promote atheism.  He's simply trying to keep people like you from interfering with people like him.

I don't know if he cares whether people become atheists or not.  I personally doubt it, but he'll have to answer this for himself.  I just think he wants religious beliefs to no longer be treated as the 'default', and effectively pushed on everyone whether they share those beliefs or not.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: skeptic54768 on January 12, 2014, 02:17:30 AM
@ralonx

Slavery took a few hundred years and generations of struggling for what's right and common sense to prevail. It's sad that a civil war where thousands had to lose their lives for this actually thinking about it today, but yes it happened. I take pride now to participate in the new "free the mind slaves" (at least from the very far right for now) knowing that even today, the new, younger generation with access to the internet and information will hopefully only take a few more generations for even more common sense to prevail.

This is an answer. An individual answer. A stand. I can respect that much. I guess it pleases you to know for some odd reason Homeland security named the fundamental Christian public enemy #1 in America. I think 2013. As a US soldier I can't pray with my men in public. I can't see my chaplain in public. Unless I'm NOT Christian. Christian services are canceled on many stateside bases. We are quickly being driven out by force. While other religions are allowed to stay. Maybe the "war" is not so far away.... This is Prophesy. Right in front of you. You are even part of it. The really sad thing is that you don't even know what i'm talking about.... Good luck! You will need it as the day approaches. To bad I don't believe in luck though. Only providence.

This is certainly true. Biblical prophecy coming true today should be all the proof atheists need. It is dishonest to ignore what a book says just because you have a prejudice against the book.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 12, 2014, 02:20:50 AM
This is certainly true. Biblical prophecy coming true today should be all the proof atheists need. It is dishonest to ignore what a book says just because you have a prejudice against the book.

Riiiiiight, end of the world from some war is coming so soon.

*puts on tinfoil hat*

I will be back, just need to make sure the government is not spiking my water tap.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: skeptic54768 on January 12, 2014, 02:21:02 AM
Hogwash, you have the legal right to do such things, provided it does not use government resources and that you accept any consequences.

Maybe. But Hollywood would never make a movie making fun of Muhammad. But, making movies that make fun of Jesus are a dime a dozen.

No doubt the culture has an unhealthy hatred for Christianity, but not the other religions. The reason is that the truth stings. Everyone knows Islam is false, so nobody cares about it.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: skeptic54768 on January 12, 2014, 02:23:05 AM
This is certainly true. Biblical prophecy coming true today should be all the proof atheists need. It is dishonest to ignore what a book says just because you have a prejudice against the book.

Riiiiiight, end of the world from some war is coming so soon.

*puts on tinfoil hat*

I will be back, just need to make sure the government is not spiking my water tap.

Stop engaging in reductio ad absurdum.

It's not a conspiracy if there's proof.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 12, 2014, 02:27:46 AM


This is certainly true. Biblical prophecy coming true today should be all the proof atheists need.

Yes a specific fulfilled prophesy after the development of scientific method would help your(the theist) case. A documented miracle with unambiguous evidence would also certainly help.

Except none exist. I don't know why theists continue to argue this one. None exist. How more plain could it be?


Biblical Prophesies? Lets look at some as listed on RationalWiki:

*Destruction of Tyre

For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people. He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee. And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers. By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach. With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground. And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water. And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard. And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. [2]


In this block of text God states quite blatantly that Nebuchadnezzar would sack and destroy completely the city of Tyre. However the events given in this passage never did come to pass. After a 13 year siege Nebuchadnezzar withdrew his forces. Despite being conquered and razed (torn down) by Alexander the Great 240 years later, [3] Tyre still exists. [4]


*Destruction of Egypt

Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring a sword upon thee, and cut off man and beast out of thee. And the land of Egypt shall be desolate and waste; and they shall know that I am the LORD: because he hath said, The river is mine, and I have made it. Behold, therefore I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from the tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia. No foot of man shall pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither shall it be inhabited forty years. And I will make the land of Egypt desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be desolate forty years: and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will disperse them through the countries.[5]
This passage is one of the most erroneous in the entire Bible. Egypt has never been a desolate waste, there has never been a time when people have not walked through it, there has never been a period of forty years when Egypt was uninhabited, and it has never been surrounded by other desolate countries.[6]

In Ezekiel 30:10-11 he further predicts that Nebuchadnezzar will destroy Egypt:

This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will put an end to the hordes of Egypt by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his army—the most ruthless of nations— will be brought in to destroy the land. They will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain. (NIV)
However, Nebuchadnezzar was defeated in his only attempt to invade Egypt.[7]

*Nile will dry up

Yep, still thereEzekiel 30:12 continues with a prediction that the Nile River will run dry.

I will dry up the streams of the Nile and sell the land to evil men; by the hand of foreigners I will lay waste the land and everything in it. I the LORD have spoken. (NIV)
There is no evidence that this has happened in recorded history.

*Triumph of Judah

In Isaiah 7:1-7 God tells the king of Judah that he shall not be harmed by his enemies.

And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin the king of Syria, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up toward Jerusalem to war against it, but could not prevail against it. And it was told the house of David, saying, Syria is confederate with Ephraim. And his heart was moved, and the heart of his people, as the trees of the wood are moved with the wind. Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field; And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah. Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have taken evil counsel against thee, saying, Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeal: Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.
Yet it did come to pass. His enemies did harm him.

Wherefore the LORD his God delivered him into the hand of the king of Syria; and they smote him, and carried away a great multitude of them captives, and brought them to Damascus. And he was also delivered into the hand of the king of Israel, who smote him with a great slaughter. For Pekah the son of Remaliah slew in Judah an hundred and twenty thousand in one day, which were all valiant men; because they had forsaken the LORD God of their fathers.

*Isaiah predicts the Nile drying up, Sea draining


 In Isaiah 19:1-8 Isaiah tells us the Nile will dry up, ocean drains in the time of pagan Egypt.

Isaiah 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. 2 And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom.3 And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards.4 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts.5 And the waters shall fail from the sea, and the river shall be wasted and dried up.6 And they shall turn the rivers far away; and the brooks of defence shall be emptied and dried up: the reeds and flags shall wither.Isaiah 19:7 The paper reeds by the brooks, by the mouth of the brooks, and every thing sown by the brooks, shall wither, be driven away, and be no more. 8 The fishermen will groan and lament, all who cast hooks into the Nile; those who throw nets on the water will pine away.
This is an interesting prophecy because Isaiah outlines a very clear timeframe, the alleged prophet is unmistakably referring to Pagan Egypt, which ceased to exist in the 4th Century. (Isaiah 19:1-3) Since then, Egyptians have stopped using charms, wizards, and there are no statue-worshiping idolaters anymore, (Isaiah 19:3) so the reader can conclude this isn't an end times prophecy. The alleged prophet blatantly identifies the dried up river (Isaiah 19:5) with the Nile (Isaiah 19:8). And he goes even further to say one of the seas Egypt borders will drain, and this appears to coincide with the Nile River drying up. There is absolutely no hint of this prophecy being interpreted symbolically or metaphorically. Isaiah actually goes out of his way to stress the literal, physical, carnal fulfillment of this prophecy.

*Egyptians will speak the dead language of Canaan


 In Isaiah 19:18 Isaiah says Egyptians will learn the tongue of Canaanites

Isaiah 19:18 In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.
Not only has the Canaanite language never been spoken by Egyptians, but it is now an extinct language. There is the very unlikely possibility Isaiah was referring to Hebrew, which is technically a Canaanite language. However, Hebrew was also never adopted by the Egyptians. And according to the context of this passage, Isaiah is specifically referring to Pagan Egypt, which ceased to exist in the 4th century. (See Above) So even if Egyptians started speaking Hebrew at this very moment, it would still be an inaccurate prediction. Also, it's worth noting that Isaiah believes the Egyptians will convert to Mosaic Judaism (a dead religion) and start offering sacrifices to the LORD shortly after this incident, (Isaiah 19:21) a practice no longer done by Jews since the Temple was destroyed and priesthood lost.

*Failure to smite Jebus


In Joshua 3:10 the eponymous Jew is quoted as saying the following:

Hereby ye shall know that the living God is among you, and that he will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Hivites, and the Perizzites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Jebusites.
This is a repetition of a promise had from God's own lips in earlier books. However, mere moments later we learn that:

As for the Jebusites the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the children of Judah could not drive them out; but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Judah at Jerusalem unto this day.[8]
The Books of Samuel relate that Jerusalem eventually falls to David, however there is no mention of the Jebusites being driven out. The Book of Kings implies that the surviving Jebusites were made serfs

1 Kings 9:20: And all the people that were left of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, which were not of the children of Israel,
1 Kings 9:21: Their children that were left after them in the land, whom the children of Israel also were not able utterly to destroy, upon those did Solomon levy a tribute of bondservice unto this day.
The above verses from 1 Kings also contradict Deuteronomy 20:17 (ie. the Jebusites were meant to be slaughtered entirely):

But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.


*Israelites will be unbeatable


In Exodus 23:27 God tells Moses that he will defeat every enemy he encounters:

I will send my terror ahead of you and throw into confusion every nation you encounter. I will make all your enemies turn their backs and run. (NIV)
However, history indicates many defeats suffered by the Israelites. Note that most believers will pull a no true Scotsman and claim that the defeats happened only at times when the Israelites weren't pious enough.

 Land promisesIn the Bible, God allegedly made promises to Abraham to deliver him land then under the control of other tribes. For example, upon Abraham entering Canaan, Genesis 12:7 states, in part, "The LORD appeared to Abram and said, 'To your offspring I will give this land.'" (NIV) This promise was reiterated in slightly different ways throughout the books of Genesis and Exodus.

However, this did not reasonably soon thereafter come to be, as illustrated by Hebrews 11:13, which, regarding Abraham's descendents, states,

All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. (NIV)
Similarly, in Exodus 23:31 God promises to give the Israelites all the land from the Mediterranean to the Red Sea and from the Euphrates River to "the desert." Historically this never happened.

*Joshua was also promised specific land. Per Joshua 1:3-5:

I will give you every place where you set your foot, as I promised Moses. Your territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the great river, the Euphrates—all the Hittite country—to the Great Sea on the west. No one will be able to stand up against you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so I will be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you. (NIV)
Strangely, Joshua 11:23 indicates that he did indeed take the land:

So Joshua took the entire land, just as the LORD had directed Moses, and he gave it as an inheritance to Israel according to their tribal divisions. Then the land had rest from war. (NIV)
However, history and the Bible indicate all the land was not taken. Per Joshua 13:1-5:

When Joshua was old and well advanced in years, the LORD said to him, "You are very old, and there are still very large areas of land to be taken over. This is the land that remains: all the regions of the Philistines and Geshurites: from the Shihor River on the east of Egypt to the territory of Ekron on the north, all of it counted as Canaanite; the territory of the five Philistine rulers in Gaza, Ashdod, Ashkelon, Gath and Ekron—that of the Avvites from the south, all the land of the Canaanites, from Arah of the Sidonians as far as Aphek, the region of the Amorites, the area of the Gebalites; and all Lebanon to the east, from Baal Gad below Mount Hermon to Lebo Hamath. (NIV)

*Israel will live in peace with its neighbors

Ezekiel 28:24-26 predicts that Israel will live in peace with its neighbors:

No longer will the people of Israel have malicious neighbors who are painful briers and sharp thorns. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign LORD. This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I gather the people of Israel from the nations where they have been scattered, I will show myself holy among them in the sight of the nations. Then they will live in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. They will live there in safety and will build houses and plant vineyards; they will live in safety when I inflict punishment on all their neighbors who maligned them. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God. (NIV)
Ouch, that one hurt. A consistent aspect of history is that Israel has never gotten along with its neighbors. (Or, if you prefer, that its neighbors have never gotten along with it.) There's still hope that Israel and the neighbourhood will be peaceful one day, but it requires everyone in the region to stop "inflicting punishment" on each other.

*Davidic line will endure foreverAt several instances in the Old Testament God promises David that the descendants of Solomon will rule Judah forever. For example, in 2 Samuel 7:13-16 God tells the prophet Nathan:

He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men. But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever. (NIV)
There is no indication that this is anything other than a literal promise. In fact the promise is reiterated during times when the future of the earthly kingdom is in doubt. In 1 Kings 11:34-36:

But I will not take the whole kingdom out of Solomon's hand; I have made him ruler all the days of his life for the sake of David my servant, whom I chose and who observed my commands and statutes. I will take the kingdom from his son's hands and give you ten tribes. I will give one tribe to his son so that David my servant may always have a lamp before me in Jerusalem, the city where I chose to put my Name. (NIV)
Unfortunately for the prophet Nathan, the Davidic line ended with King Zedekiah in about 586 BC. [9] Biblical inerrantists, spotting a possible loophole, claim that Jesus , being descended from David, fulfilled this prophecy. Per Acts 2:29-31,

Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. (NIV)
However, there are many reasons this is an unsatisfactory solution. Aspects of the 2 Samuel reference above, specifically "When he does wrong," do not seem consistent with Christian doctrine of Jesus as the Son of God. Additionally, the line of kings is described as being continuous. Consider Jeremiah 33:17:

For this is what the LORD says: 'David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, (NIV)
This leaves unexplained the near 600-year gap between Zedekiah and Jesus. Further, there is the question of the Davidic line after Jesus, as he apparently died childless. Note: Mark 6:3 and Matthew 13:55 as evidence for Jesus' siblings. Note: A precedent is previously set for biblical linage being a mantel rather then genetic linage due to Gen. 24 and 27, Jacob's theft of Esau's blessing and the selling of the birthright.

In reality the only evidence available that Jesus is a descendant of David is in the genealogies in Matthew and Luke. The alleged prophecy stresses the literal descendancy from David. We read in 2 Samuel 7:12:

When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. (NIV)
However, if the virgin birth doctrine be valid then Jesus is not actually the son of Joseph, making virgin birth seem incompatible with Jesus' descendancy from David.

Finally, several Bible verses seem to indicate that Jesus is in fact not of the line of David. For example Matthew 22:41-45 states:

While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?" "The son of David," they replied. He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says, 'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet." ' If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?" (NIV)

Indeed.


*Jesus will be a Nazarene

In the Bible, Jesus is born in Bethlehem but grows up in Nazareth. Matthew credits the Nazareth upbringing as a fullfilment of prophecy:

Matt. 2:23 And [Mary, Joseph, and Jesus] came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth; that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophets, that he should be called a Nazarene.
Unlike most of the other "prophecies" in this category, we can't even tell which Old Testament passage, if any, Matthew is twisting to fit the story; no OT prophecy seems relevant. It's almost as if he's just flat-out declaring that this was prophecied and hoping no one calls his bluff. Of course, even this one is't too big a stone for apologists to swallow. As web page dedicated to this particular problem puts it: "First, it is necessary to point out that a genuine textual problem only exists if one has exhausted every possibility of interpretation, and there simply is no reasonable explanation that resolves the difficulty."

The most popular Christian explanation is that "Nazarene" is a figurative expression for anyone who is despised or rejected, as Jesus is at various points in the New Testament and the Messiah at various points in the old. Not only is that a heck of a cop-out, but if it's Matthew's intention, then it makes little sense for him to say that Jesus moving to a literal Nazareth is a fulfillment of the "figurative Nazarene" prophecy. A likelier possibility, and one which makes the author of Matthew look less dishonest and/or stupid, is that "the prophets" doesn't mean the Old Testament authors, but some other person or group of people, or an oral tradition. Of course, in that instance the case for a "fulfilled prophecy" is left empty-handed (and it's a catch-all excuse for similar failures).

*Jesus will be pierced

John 19:37 claims that Jesus being pierced in the course of his execution fulfills a prophecy: "and, as another scripture says, 'They will look on the one they have pierced.'" The NIV translation in a footnote indicates the source of this prophecy is Zechariah 12:10:

And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. (NIV)
The first observation to make is that the verse in John is an inaccurate quote, leaving out the word "me." This is to alleviate inconsistencies with the one speaking, presumably John, also being the one pierced, claimed to be Jesus. In fact, this relates to the problem inherent in assuming the verse from John refers to Jesus--that the "me" who is pierced cannot be the same as the "him" who is mourned for.

Also the context of Zechariah 12 is of an invading army and is not intended as a prophecy of Jesus.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 12, 2014, 02:27:52 AM
Maybe. But Hollywood would never make a movie making fun of Muhammad. But, making movies that make fun of Jesus are a dime a dozen.

Perhaps that is because muslims go bat-shit insane and start burning embassies?
Meanwhile most christians acknowledge humor/simply have balls, and thus don't start burning everything?

Stop engaging in reductio ad absurdum.

It's not a conspiracy if there's proof.

Wow, people are having wars here.
No seriously, there has been war since ants evolved, war is not some magical prophesy that indicates the end of the world.

Although, nukes these days are kind of a "start a war, and we ALL die" type weapon, hence nothing huge has happened since the end of the cold war.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 12, 2014, 02:30:29 AM


No doubt the culture has an unhealthy hatred for Christianity,

Yeah that's why we have politician loudly proclaiming their Christianity every election cycle.
 &)
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: skeptic54768 on January 12, 2014, 02:31:35 AM
Maybe. But Hollywood would never make a movie making fun of Muhammad. But, making movies that make fun of Jesus are a dime a dozen.

Perhaps that is because muslims go bat-shit insane and start burning embassies?
Meanwhile most christians acknowledge humor/simply have balls, and thus don't start burning everything?

Stop engaging in reductio ad absurdum.

It's not a conspiracy if there's proof.

Wow, people are having wars here.
No seriously, there has been war since ants evolved, war is not some magical prophesy that indicates the end of the world.

Although, nukes these days are kind of a "start a war, and we ALL die" type weapon, hence nothing huge has happened since the end of the cold war.

No, nothing vague. Bible says the temple will be rebuilt in the last days and it's being rebuilt now.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: skeptic54768 on January 12, 2014, 02:33:23 AM


This is certainly true. Biblical prophecy coming true today should be all the proof atheists need.

Yes a specific fulfilled prophesy after the development of scientific method would help your(the theist) case. A documented miracle with unambiguous evidence would also certainly help.

Except none exist. I don't know why theists continue to argue this one. None exist. How more plain could it be?


Biblical Prophesies? Lets look at some as listed on RationalWiki:

*Destruction of Tyre

For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people. He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee. And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers. By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach. With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground. And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water. And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard. And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. [2]


In this block of text God states quite blatantly that Nebuchadnezzar would sack and destroy completely the city of Tyre. However the events given in this passage never did come to pass. After a 13 year siege Nebuchadnezzar withdrew his forces. Despite being conquered and razed (torn down) by Alexander the Great 240 years later, [3] Tyre still exists. [4]

*snip prophecies*

That is a lot you have listed. Who's to say they didn't happen yet?

What if the Nile dries up in a few years? Then what?
What if people in Egypt start speaking that language? Then what?
What if Egypt becomes a desolate wasteland? Then what?

Will you believe or make excuses?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: MadBunny on January 12, 2014, 02:36:32 AM

This is an answer. An individual answer. A stand. I can respect that much. I guess it pleases you to know for some odd reason Homeland security named the fundamental Christian public enemy #1 in America. I think 2013.


http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/

DHS has no such list.  However, given the rise of anti-American sentiment among the conservative sect it wouldn't surprise me.

You want to not get treated like a terrorist?  Stop acting like one.  Just like if you don't' want to be treated like a racist piece of shit; don't act like a racist piece of shit.

You f.ucks are forever threatening the president, and going around waving your guns in the air threatening violence every time some petty piece of bullshit doesn't go your way.  For example one person suggested that 'for the safety of the nation' if his political opponent were elected then it might require some brave American to shoot him.  Lets not forget how often the subject of 'secession has come up.  Usually every time you don't get to shove Christianity and government into the bedroom or get denied the ability to throw money at the feet of the wealthy.


So yeah, it's not that you just weasel out of direct answers, it's also that you guys are always trying to blame your farts on the dog while you're at it as well.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 12, 2014, 02:38:53 AM


Why are you here.. discussing the fine details of page 214 and how best to show the wizards of hogwarts that magic is fake? complete game plans... counterpoints to counterpoints discussed on various threads. Why? I ask again how is tthis not proselytizing for your (lack of) faith?
food for thought...

Because people are stating said books are perfect and real, and the belief in the false is shaping public policy. That's why. In fact that was the point of the whole darn analogy.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 12, 2014, 02:39:47 AM
No doubt the culture has an unhealthy hatred for Christianity, but not the other religions. The reason is that the truth stings.

America is comprised mostly of Christians. Middle east are mostly muslims, who are insane, so i guess they hate christian. Straya tends to hate muslims... And i cannot speak for anything else...

As for truth, yes, i know it can hurt, hence that is why you don't believe in evolustion... *sigh*

Everyone knows Islam is false, so nobody cares about it.

Almost everyone cares about Islam, not because it is true, but because if you do ridiculous things such as draw their prophet, they start killing everything like piranhas.
Its respect caused by fear, not lack of respect due to falsehood.

What if the Nile dries up in a few years? Then what?

Investigate.

What if people in Egypt start speaking that language? Then what?

Investigate.

What if Egypt becomes a desolate wasteland? Then what?

Isn't it already?... :|
Otherwise, investigate.

Will you believe or make excuses?

I for one would like some good scientific evidence suggesting that the end of the world is nigh, due to a prophesy written in the bible.
You cant use the bible to back up the bible.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 12, 2014, 02:43:44 AM


This is certainly true. Biblical prophecy coming true today should be all the proof atheists need.

Yes a specific fulfilled prophesy after the development of scientific method would help your(the theist) case. A documented miracle with unambiguous evidence would also certainly help.

Except none exist. I don't know why theists continue to argue this one. None exist. How more plain could it be?


Biblical Prophesies? Lets look at some as listed on RationalWiki:

*Destruction of Tyre

For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people. He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee. And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers. By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach. With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground. And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water. And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard. And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. [2]


In this block of text God states quite blatantly that Nebuchadnezzar would sack and destroy completely the city of Tyre. However the events given in this passage never did come to pass. After a 13 year siege Nebuchadnezzar withdrew his forces. Despite being conquered and razed (torn down) by Alexander the Great 240 years later, [3] Tyre still exists. [4]

*snip prophecies*

That is a lot you have listed. Who's to say they didn't happen yet?

What if the Nile dries up in a few years? Then what?
What if people in Egypt start speaking that language? Then what?
What if Egypt becomes a desolate wasteland? Then what?

Will you believe or make excuses?

What if? Sorry, I don't live in conjecture land.  Well see when Nebuchnezzar comes back to life and razes the city of Tyre, okay?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: skeptic54768 on January 12, 2014, 02:44:10 AM
Almost everyone cares about Islam, not because it is true, but because if you do ridiculous things such as draw their prophet, they start killing everything like piranhas.
Its respect caused by fear, not lack of respect due to falsehood.

Do you know how many atheists on here have said they would spit in God's face if He was real? So they can do that to God, but can't handle Muslims who are not as powerful as God?

Something seems off here.....

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 12, 2014, 02:51:10 AM
Do you know how many atheists on here have said they would spit in God's face if He was real? So they can do that to God, but can't handle Muslims who are not as powerful as God?

You see, if one is an atheist, you are apparently going to hell, so if god came up to you, you are dead anyway.

But of course, understand that atheists by default have no fear of a deity, they do not exist.

Muslims on the other-hand are real, and if they are pissed, they kill you, until you are dead.

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: MadBunny on January 12, 2014, 02:52:41 AM
Are you trying to pretend we've never had Muslims on the website?
Their pretend god and prophet is just as fake as yours is.

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: voodoo child on January 12, 2014, 02:53:59 AM
Something seems off here.....


What part, thanking god for a rain storm to put the forest fire out or for the lightning that started it?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: skeptic54768 on January 12, 2014, 02:54:42 AM
Do you know how many atheists on here have said they would spit in God's face if He was real? So they can do that to God, but can't handle Muslims who are not as powerful as God?

You see, if one is an atheist, you are apparently going to hell, so if god came up to you, you are dead anyway.

But of course, understand that atheists by default have no fear of a deity, they do not exist.

Muslims on the other-hand are real, and if they are pissed, they kill you, until you are dead.

Are you saying that you will never stand up for yourself?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: MadBunny on January 12, 2014, 02:55:18 AM
Muslims on the other-hand are real, and if they are pissed, they kill you, until you are dead.

Maybe he's just another pseudo Christian who's secretly an admirer of Muslim faith.
There do seem to be plenty of them out there.  With the current trend toward hardliner religion though, it seems that Islam is too.... liberal, for them.

What does that tell you when Sharia law is to the left of the modern Christian Conservative?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 12, 2014, 02:59:38 AM
As a US soldier I can't pray with my men in public. I can't see my chaplain in public. Unless I'm NOT Christian. Christian services are canceled on many stateside bases.

(http://armylive.dodlive.mil/files/2009/07/soldiers-praying-2-july-201.jpg)

Really? This is from the DoD website regarding "comprehensive soldier fitness"
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 12, 2014, 03:01:04 AM
Are you saying that you will never stand up for yourself?

I do stand up for myself, and have personally eaten pork, despite a Muslim saying for me to do otherwise.

Of course, I am in Australia, not the middle east, so it is particularly safer here to do so.

But I prefer to keep out of other peoples business, no need for me to start some massive muslim riot here.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: lotanddaughters on January 12, 2014, 10:07:30 AM


This is certainly true. Biblical prophecy coming true today should be all the proof atheists need.

Yes a specific fulfilled prophesy after the development of scientific method would help your(the theist) case. A documented miracle with unambiguous evidence would also certainly help.

Except none exist. I don't know why theists continue to argue this one. None exist. How more plain could it be?


Biblical Prophesies? Lets look at some as listed on RationalWiki:

*Destruction of Tyre

For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people. He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee. And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers. By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach. With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground. And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water. And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard. And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. [2]


In this block of text God states quite blatantly that Nebuchadnezzar would sack and destroy completely the city of Tyre. However the events given in this passage never did come to pass. After a 13 year siege Nebuchadnezzar withdrew his forces. Despite being conquered and razed (torn down) by Alexander the Great 240 years later, [3] Tyre still exists. [4]

*snip prophecies*

That is a lot you have listed. Who's to say they didn't happen yet?

What if the Nile dries up in a few years? Then what?
What if people in Egypt start speaking that language? Then what?
What if Egypt becomes a desolate wasteland? Then what?

Will you believe or make excuses?
With every year that passes by where these events do not happen, you remain a gullible fucking idiot for all to see.

Ha ha, Motherfucker. Fucking ha. Ha. Ha.[1]
 1. I'm done playing with this motherfucker.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 12, 2014, 11:34:52 AM
With every year that passes by where these events do not happen, you remain a gullible fucking idiot for all to see.

Ha ha, Motherfucker. Fucking ha. Ha. Ha.[1]
 1. I'm done playing with this motherfucker.

And notice his "rebuttal" doesn't mention events that can not possibly happen, and furthermore his primary evidence of predictions coming true is the rebuilding of the temple. Something that is being done because of said predictions.  That's no more evidence that the early 23rd century will look exactly like Star Trek The Original Series, with miniskirts, slowly enunciating computer voices, and all  because Star Trek fans successfully lobbied to get one of the space shuttles named Enterprise.

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on January 12, 2014, 02:02:14 PM
No, nothing vague. Bible says the temple will be rebuilt in the last days and it's being rebuilt now.

Okay.  Let's get very specific then. 

What precisely will you accept as the completion of the temple rebuild?
What will be the period of the last days from that point to the end?
Is there anything that could prevent the end once the temple is complete?

If this is a real prophecy you want to stand behind, let's hear the details, to prevent these being yet another load of bull that gets twisted after the event.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: jaimehlers on January 12, 2014, 02:59:18 PM
This is certainly true. Biblical prophecy coming true today should be all the proof atheists need. It is dishonest to ignore what a book says just because you have a prejudice against the book.
By that logic, we should assume that a fortuneteller who gives us a vague prediction that ends up being correct actually saw the future.

Personally, I prefer to be skeptical of prophecies and the like.  Especially when it's so very easy for people to intentionally 'fulfill' them, and when other prophecies from the same source were never fulfilled.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: G-Roll on January 12, 2014, 04:31:31 PM
As a US soldier I can't pray with my men in public. I can't see my chaplain in public. Unless I'm NOT Christian. Christian services are canceled on many stateside bases.

I would love to see the DOD guidance that inhibits you from praying. I would love to see/read the instructions that go directly against the US constitution. Now if you are complaining that your Chaplin can't say "In Jesus name" after his 10 minute prayer at a change of command ceremony I got nothing for ya. I suppose Muslims and Jews should pray in Jesus name? I thought the cross on his uniform identified him as a Christian praying to Jesus anyway.

Anywho here are some highlights of  DOD Instruction 1300.17

http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/130017p.pdf

Quote
4. POLICY. The U.S. Constitution proscribes Congress from enacting any law prohibiting the
free exercise of religion. The Department of Defense places a high value on the rights of
members of the Military Services to observe the tenets of their respective religions. It is DoD
policy that requests for accommodation of religious practices should be approved by
commanders when accommodation will not have an adverse impact on mission accomplishment,
military readiness, unit cohesion, standards, or discipline.

Quote
3. When requests for accommodation are not in the best interest of the unit, and continued
tension between the unit’s requirements and the individual’s religious beliefs is apparent,
administrative actions should be considered. Those actions may include, but are not limited to,
assignment, reassignment, reclassification, or separation. Nothing in this Instruction precludes
action under chapter 47 of title 10, United States Code (Reference (c)), in the appropriate
circumstances.

Quote
a. Worship practices, holy days, and Sabbath or similar religious observance requests shall
be accommodated, except when precluded by military necessity.
b. Religious beliefs shall be included as a factor for consideration when granting separate
rations.
c. Religious beliefs shall be considered as a factor for the waiver of required medical
practices, subject to military requirements and medical risks to the unit.
d. Familiarization with religious accommodation policies shall be included in the training
curricula for command, judge advocate, chaplain, and other appropriate career fields or
assignments.
e. Applicants for commissioning, enlistment, and reenlistment shall be advised of their
Military Department’s specific religious accommodation policies.

Please note the lack of Christian prosecution.
Also I would recommend you be more careful identifying yourself as a service member within the realm of social media. Lol you tracking me?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Ivellios on January 12, 2014, 07:58:13 PM
And notice his "rebuttal" doesn't mention events that can not possibly happen, and furthermore his primary evidence of predictions coming true is the rebuilding of the temple. Something that is being done because of said predictions.  That's no more evidence that the early 23rd century will look exactly like Star Trek The Original Series, with miniskirts, slowly enunciating computer voices, and all  because Star Trek fans successfully lobbied to get one of the space shuttles named Enterprise.

Harbinger, There is such a thing as a "self-fufilling prophesy." When someone imagines something then others cause it to happen.

Unless Gene Rodenbery is a "true prophet," that's what prophecy is. We can thank him for the inspiration of Cellphones[1], Touchscreens[2] and a few other things.

For the other prophecies that 'could come true!' Sooner or later every city will fall into ruin, whether we've left the Earth, get hit by a roid or we kill ourselves off. 

I prophesy a Hurricane will hit somewhere in the US, and it'll herald the 'End of DaysTM.'
 1. heck our cellphones have more functions than you can shake a tricorder at.
 2. which even just a few years ago were considered "impossible"
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: harbinger77 on January 12, 2014, 08:08:49 PM
As a US soldier I can't pray with my men in public. I can't see my chaplain in public. Unless I'm NOT Christian. Christian services are canceled on many stateside bases.

I would love to see the DOD guidance that inhibits you from praying. I would love to see/read the instructions that go directly against the US constitution. Now if you are complaining that your Chaplin can't say "In Jesus name" after his 10 minute prayer at a change of command ceremony I got nothing for ya. I suppose Muslims and Jews should pray in Jesus name? I thought the cross on his uniform identified him as a Christian praying to Jesus anyway.

Anywho here are some highlights of  DOD Instruction 1300.17

http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/130017p.pdf

Quote
4. POLICY. The U.S. Constitution proscribes Congress from enacting any law prohibiting the
free exercise of religion. The Department of Defense places a high value on the rights of
members of the Military Services to observe the tenets of their respective religions. It is DoD
policy that requests for accommodation of religious practices should be approved by
commanders when accommodation will not have an adverse impact on mission accomplishment,
military readiness, unit cohesion, standards, or discipline.

Quote
3. When requests for accommodation are not in the best interest of the unit, and continued
tension between the unit’s requirements and the individual’s religious beliefs is apparent,
administrative actions should be considered. Those actions may include, but are not limited to,
assignment, reassignment, reclassification, or separation. Nothing in this Instruction precludes
action under chapter 47 of title 10, United States Code (Reference (c)), in the appropriate
circumstances.

Quote
a. Worship practices, holy days, and Sabbath or similar religious observance requests shall
be accommodated, except when precluded by military necessity.
b. Religious beliefs shall be included as a factor for consideration when granting separate
rations.
c. Religious beliefs shall be considered as a factor for the waiver of required medical
practices, subject to military requirements and medical risks to the unit.
d. Familiarization with religious accommodation policies shall be included in the training
curricula for command, judge advocate, chaplain, and other appropriate career fields or
assignments.
e. Applicants for commissioning, enlistment, and reenlistment shall be advised of their
Military Department’s specific religious accommodation policies.

Please note the lack of Christian prosecution.
Also I would recommend you be more careful identifying yourself as a service member within the realm of social media. Lol you tracking me?

Tack this, Poag... Your publication date is 10FEB2009
Maybe you should check into something a bit more up to date. Maybe you can ask a Christian Soldier what's happening on the ground. Not allowing me to say "in jesus name" is a violation of my freedom of speech. You don't mind that though?
Maybe this news article will amuse you and spur you to dig deeper?

http://z3news.com/w/president-obama-ramping-persecution-christians-military/

or this perhaps.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/10/14/us-army-defines-christian-ministry-as-domestic-hate-group/?intcmp=related

At any rate. I can say as a deployed infantry soldier with secret security clearance, Your government lies to you. Your government controlled media lies to you too. Always keep this in mind.

The question is when it comes will you stand with the Christian and his American right to be. Or will you, as you suggest, stand with your government no matter the lvl of corruption?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: harbinger77 on January 12, 2014, 08:25:47 PM
As a US soldier I can't pray with my men in public. I can't see my chaplain in public. Unless I'm NOT Christian. Christian services are canceled on many stateside bases.

I would love to see the DOD guidance that inhibits you from praying. I would love to see/read the instructions that go directly against the US constitution. Now if you are complaining that your Chaplin can't say "In Jesus name" after his 10 minute prayer at a change of command ceremony I got nothing for ya. I suppose Muslims and Jews should pray in Jesus name? I thought the cross on his uniform identified him as a Christian praying to Jesus anyway.

Anywho here are some highlights of  DOD Instruction 1300.17

http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/130017p.pdf

Quote
4. POLICY. The U.S. Constitution proscribes Congress from enacting any law prohibiting the
free exercise of religion. The Department of Defense places a high value on the rights of
members of the Military Services to observe the tenets of their respective religions. It is DoD
policy that requests for accommodation of religious practices should be approved by
commanders when accommodation will not have an adverse impact on mission accomplishment,
military readiness, unit cohesion, standards, or discipline.

Quote
3. When requests for accommodation are not in the best interest of the unit, and continued
tension between the unit’s requirements and the individual’s religious beliefs is apparent,
administrative actions should be considered. Those actions may include, but are not limited to,
assignment, reassignment, reclassification, or separation. Nothing in this Instruction precludes
action under chapter 47 of title 10, United States Code (Reference (c)), in the appropriate
circumstances.

Quote
a. Worship practices, holy days, and Sabbath or similar religious observance requests shall
be accommodated, except when precluded by military necessity.
b. Religious beliefs shall be included as a factor for consideration when granting separate
rations.
c. Religious beliefs shall be considered as a factor for the waiver of required medical
practices, subject to military requirements and medical risks to the unit.
d. Familiarization with religious accommodation policies shall be included in the training
curricula for command, judge advocate, chaplain, and other appropriate career fields or
assignments.
e. Applicants for commissioning, enlistment, and reenlistment shall be advised of their
Military Department’s specific religious accommodation policies.

Please note the lack of Christian prosecution.
Also I would recommend you be more careful identifying yourself as a service member within the realm of social media. Lol you tracking me?

Track this, Poag... Your publication date is 10FEB2009
Maybe you should check into something a bit more up to date. Maybe you can ask a Christian Soldier what's happening on the ground. Not allowing me to say "in jesus name" is a violation of my freedom of speech. AND (mild yes) Christian persecution. You don't mind that though?
Maybe this news article will amuse you and spur you to dig deeper?

http://z3news.com/w/president-obama-ramping-persecution-christians-military/

or this perhaps.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/10/14/us-army-defines-christian-ministry-as-domestic-hate-group/?intcmp=related

At any rate. I can say as a deployed infantry soldier with secret security clearance, Your government lies to you. Your government controlled media lies to you too. Always keep this in mind.

The question is when it comes will you stand with the Christian and his American right to be. Or will you, as you suggest, stand with your government no matter the lvl of corruption?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Star Stuff on January 12, 2014, 08:59:45 PM
harbinger77:

Regarding your "signature"

Quotes from Albert Einstein:

It was of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated.  I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly.  If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.  (Albert Einstein)


The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.  (Albert Einstein)


For me the Jewish religion, like all others, is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity, have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them.  (Albert Einstein)


I see only with deep regret that God punishes so many of his children for their numerous stupidities, for which only he himself can be held responsible; in my opinion, only his nonexistence could excuse him.  (Albert Einstein)


From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist.  (Albert Einstein)


I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one.  (Albert Einstein)


Since our inner experiences consist of reproductions, and combinations of sensory impressions, the concept of a soul without a body seems to me to be empty and devoid of meaning.  (Albert Einstein)



Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 12, 2014, 09:03:34 PM


http://z3news.com/w/president-obama-ramping-persecution-christians-military/

or this perhaps.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/10/14/us-army-defines-christian-ministry-as-domestic-hate-group/?intcmp=related



What I find amusing is you trust (1)Fox News who had to go to court to get upheld for their permission to lie, and whose job #1 is to discredit all liberals particularly Obama and  (2) a website called "Zeal for Christianity" as your news sources.

Your bias is laughable.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: lotanddaughters on January 12, 2014, 09:11:51 PM
Maybe you should check into something a bit more up to date.

Like what? Another tall tale from the Ancient World?





Maybe you can ask a Christian Soldier what's happening on the ground.

Christian Soldier? What the hell are they doing over there? Turning the other cheek?


Dear Christian Soldier,

Either put down the guns, or remove "Christian" as part of your description, Thou hypocrite.



Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Backspace on January 12, 2014, 09:26:42 PM
I guess it pleases you to know for some odd reason Homeland security named the fundamental Christian public enemy #1 in America. I think 2013.

As has already been pointed out, this is a lie.

As a US soldier I can't pray with my men in public. I can't see my chaplain in public. Unless I'm NOT Christian. Christian services are canceled on many stateside bases.

Another lie.  Actually not just a lie, but pure bullshit. I've more than 21 years active duty, and 10 years military civil service, and for that more than 30 years of service, and Christianity prevails above all in the US military, plain and simple.  Military Chaplains are very public people -- if you can't pray with yours in public, you must be stationed in a country where such a thing isn't permitted by international agreement. On the dozen or so bases/posts I've been stationed, Christian chaplains are all to happy to pray with anyone, anywhere, anytime.

How easily these lies roll off your tongue H77... Your god must be pleased.

   
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 12, 2014, 09:47:19 PM
This is something i do not get.

Theists are always like "This is the truth, radda radda", yet they bloody lie on even the most trivially common known things.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: xyzzy on January 12, 2014, 10:04:04 PM
On the subject of supposedly not being able to pray, I suspect harbinger may be referring to the results of actions such as those from the MRFF -- http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/achievements/ (http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/achievements/). Ironically, though, those folks are just trying to ensure consistent adherence to the constitutional guarantees that harbinger might well tell people he's fighting for.


http://z3news.com/w/president-obama-ramping-persecution-christians-military/

or this perhaps.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/10/14/us-army-defines-christian-ministry-as-domestic-hate-group/?intcmp=related

What I find amusing is you trust (1)Fox News who had to go to court to get upheld for their permission to lie, and whose job #1 is to discredit all liberals particularly Obama and  (2) a website called "Zeal for Christianity" as your news sources.

Your bias is laughable.

I was going to write a rebuttal to harbinger's... rant... but then I noticed the headlines from some of the other stories on Z3 news and decided that they spoke for themselves.

Harbinger, you seem to be, frankly, desperate to envelop yourself in a climate of confirmation bias and you seem only to seek out "sources" that feed your persecution complex.

I'm intrigued, do you read Z3 News on a regular basis, or is just another example of you searching for something to fit your predetermined narrative? I really am interested in your answer.

Anyway, here's some other headlines from harbinger's source. I think they speak for themselves.

John MacArthur Launches Vicious Attack Against Charismatic Christians

Keith Moore’s Amazing Visit to Heaven

Church Leadership Will Soon Get Delivered from Their Witchcraft

Increased Angelic Activity Coming in 2013

Higher Wisdom is Being Released in 2013

and so on.

In this one, though, we see prophecy. Now, harbinger, you are citing this publication as a source. You must therefore trust it? Please answer. Do you consider Z3 a reliable source?

Quote
Radical Christian Revolution Coming in 2013

"We are about to be introduced to Almighty God as the roaring Lion of Judah. God is restoring holy awe and fear to His people—and as this righteous and wholesome fear of the Lord returns to the people of God, the manifest presence of the Lord will also return. We can expect to see God reveal Himself in such magnitude and glory that the mouths of people will open wide. We can expect no less than jaw-dropping experiences".

Now, please answer: (a) did these prophecies come true? (b) how to you reconcile these "jaw-dropping experiences" and statements such as "We are about to be introduced to Almighty God as the roaring Lion of Judah" with your claim that a mere mortal (the president) can prevent you from praying to "the roaring Lion of Judah"?

What were your jaw-dropping experiences in 2013?

The article about angels cited Harry Potter as an influence in people becoming witches. Do you believe in witches, harbinger?

Also, how did this work out for you?

Quote
Prepare for angelic visitations! We are in a time when the spiritual realm is extremely active. God’s holy angels are sent here to help us as we engage in the conflict of the ages.

My explanation for all this bluster is that it's just made up shit. What's yours?

protip: if you're going to trawl the internet seeking to cherry pick examples to support your unflinching position, you might want to ensure that what you are posting does you more good than harm.

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 12, 2014, 10:50:50 PM

My explanation for all this bluster is that it's just made up shit. What's yours?

protip: if you're going to trawl the internet seeking to cherry pick examples to support your unflinching position, you might want to ensure that what you are posting does you more good than harm.

So another fallacy: Texas sharpshooter.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 12, 2014, 11:20:55 PM
I find this over and over again on this forum - what seems to be the simplest and directest question takes pages and pages of dodging and backsliding and ignoring until - maybe - you finally get an answer.

I'm sure there is a lot of discussion to be had about the psychology of it all, but I'm interested in a different question.

If there IS a god out there, and that god is as just and right and GOOD as most believers would have us believe - then why is all the dodging necessary in the first place?  Surely a god so good, so perfect, so right, would lead to discussions along the lines of:

Anfauglir: Can you explain why your god.....
Believer: (firmly) Yes.  It is because.....(specific and direct answer).
Anfauglir:  Ah, I see - that makes perfect sense.  Thank you.

Now THAT kind of god - the one where there was no need to dodge, no need to prevaricate, no need to shy away from "awkward" questions......THAT is a god that I could really get behind.  But these gods who are so tricksy, so convoluted, so demonstrative of so many negative behaviours that their believers have to dodge the questions and go into such lengthy apologetics......well, there just seems something suspicious about it all.

A truly good, truly godly god, would be very unlikely to raise any of these questions in the first place.  And it certainly wouldn't require the degree of evasion and goal-post shifting that we see so much of on these forums. 

If there was a truly good and godly god, it would be clear.  No nagging doubts, no endless arguments.  It would be clear and obvious to all.  The fact that it isn't may not necessarily mean there isn't a god out there.  But it sure makes it clear that there is something seriously wrong with the picture.
There probably is no need to answer or there are answers and no one understand it.
For instance many people perhaps cannot explain what frequencies are - they therefore lack the ability or vocabulary to explain said unknown - however it does not mean frequencies do not exist. Some things that were written for a primitve mind relative to science cannot be understood by those with a differnt mental and vocabulary make up. One would say it is all realtive to the receiver.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 12, 2014, 11:29:00 PM
I find this over and over again on this forum - what seems to be the simplest and directest question takes pages and pages of dodging and backsliding and ignoring until - maybe - you finally get an answer.

I'm sure there is a lot of discussion to be had about the psychology of it all, but I'm interested in a different question.

If there IS a god out there, and that god is as just and right and GOOD as most believers would have us believe - then why is all the dodging necessary in the first place?  Surely a god so good, so perfect, so right, would lead to discussions along the lines of:

Anfauglir: Can you explain why your god.....
Believer: (firmly) Yes.  It is because.....(specific and direct answer).
Anfauglir:  Ah, I see - that makes perfect sense.  Thank you.

Now THAT kind of god - the one where there was no need to dodge, no need to prevaricate, no need to shy away from "awkward" questions......THAT is a god that I could really get behind.  But these gods who are so tricksy, so convoluted, so demonstrative of so many negative behaviours that their believers have to dodge the questions and go into such lengthy apologetics......well, there just seems something suspicious about it all.

A truly good, truly godly god, would be very unlikely to raise any of these questions in the first place.  And it certainly wouldn't require the degree of evasion and goal-post shifting that we see so much of on these forums. 

If there was a truly good and godly god, it would be clear.  No nagging doubts, no endless arguments.  It would be clear and obvious to all.  The fact that it isn't may not necessarily mean there isn't a god out there.  But it sure makes it clear that there is something seriously wrong with the picture.
There probably is no need to answer or there are answers and no one understand it.
For instance many people perhaps cannot explain what frequencies are - they therefore lack the ability or vocabulary to explain said unknown - however it does not mean frequencies do not exist. Some things that were written for a primitve mind relative to science cannot be understood by those with a differnt mental and vocabulary make up. One would say it is all realtive to the receiver.

I'm finding quite amusing that you are illustrating the original post's point.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 12, 2014, 11:32:21 PM
This thread's OP is like a perpetual irony machine.

The thread is so simple, but yet is somehow so complex that the audience it is aimed at is incapable of answering it according to the thread itself...
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: skeptic54768 on January 12, 2014, 11:35:36 PM
Maybe you should check into something a bit more up to date.

Like what? Another tall tale from the Ancient World?





Maybe you can ask a Christian Soldier what's happening on the ground.

Christian Soldier? What the hell are they doing over there? Turning the other cheek?


Dear Christian Soldier,

Either put down the guns, or remove "Christian" as part of your description, Thou hypocrite.



Are you saying that some people call themselves Christians but are not actually Christians?

Isn't that what I have been saying all along? Now you agree with me?



Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 12, 2014, 11:41:38 PM
[quote author=skeptic54768 link=topic=25200.msg594844#msg594844 date=1389587736
Are you saying that some people call themselves Christians but are not actually Christians?

Isn't that what I have been saying all along? Now you agree with me?

[/quote]

I think it was pointing at the irony of a christian (pro life, says not to kill, etc) wanting to be a soldier...

Never the less, they believe in Jesus and god, thus are still Christians.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: skeptic54768 on January 12, 2014, 11:55:54 PM

I think it was pointing at the irony of a christian (pro life, says not to kill, etc) wanting to be a soldier...

Never the less, they believe in Jesus and god, thus are still Christians.

The poster said to remove "Christian" from his title. Don't try to backpedal.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 12, 2014, 11:58:18 PM
The poster said to remove "Christian" from his title. Don't try to backpedal.

"Christian soldier" could imply two things.
1: a soldier who is a christian.
2: a soldier who fights christians.

But i digress.

Can you answer the OP yet?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: skeptic54768 on January 13, 2014, 12:01:32 AM
The poster said to remove "Christian" from his title. Don't try to backpedal.

"Christian soldier" could imply two things.
1: a soldier who is a christian.
2: a soldier who fights christians.

But i digress.

Can you answer the OP yet?

We do answer questions as best we can. But, trying to fully understand God is tough for people and atheists think we're stumped.

Imagine an ant trying to answer questions about a human. They would not be able to. This doesn't mean humans don't exist. it just means the ants can't fully understand us.

it would be like getting mad at your dog when he doesn't cook you dinner after you tell him to cook you dinner.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: skeptic54768 on January 13, 2014, 12:06:27 AM
I have never backed down from a question. I even solved the problem of evil and one of the posters on here still has the quote in his signature. That tells me atheists ignore the answers we give.

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 13, 2014, 12:09:24 AM
We do answer questions as best we can. But, trying to fully understand God is tough for people and atheists think we're stumped.

Hogwash, theists claim to explain god all the time.

Be it from justifying the flood, to why god made sin.

Imagine an ant trying to answer questions about a human. They would not be able to. This doesn't mean humans don't exist. it just means the ants can't fully understand us.

*satirical but true post*
I beg to differ, here in Australia (where the ants are more than an inch in length), ants seem to understand that if a human is nearby, its probably going to squish a crap ton of them.

And again, another failed attempt to answer the OP.
Why is there all the dodging? Why is this perfect being described as something not perfect? Etc, read the OP.

I have never backed down from a question. I even solved the problem of evil and one of the posters on here still has the quote in his signature. That tells me atheists ignore the answers we give.

What poster?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: skeptic54768 on January 13, 2014, 12:12:02 AM
We do answer questions as best we can. But, trying to fully understand God is tough for people and atheists think we're stumped.

Hogwash, theists claim to explain god all the time.

Be it from justifying the flood, to why god made sin.

Imagine an ant trying to answer questions about a human. They would not be able to. This doesn't mean humans don't exist. it just means the ants can't fully understand us.

*satirical but true post*
I beg to differ, here in Australia (where the ants are more than an inch in length), ants seem to understand that if a human is nearby, its probably going to squish a crap ton of them.

And again, another failed attempt to answer the OP.
Why is there all the dodging? Why is this perfect being described as something not perfect? Etc, read the OP.

I have never backed down from a question. I even solved the problem of evil and one of the posters on here still has the quote in his signature. That tells me atheists ignore the answers we give.

What poster?

I think the poster is median, or ParkingPlaces. but I'm pretty sure it's median.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 13, 2014, 12:13:16 AM
It ain't me. You're wrong about everything. Learn to adjust.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: skeptic54768 on January 13, 2014, 12:14:44 AM
It ain't me. You're wrong about everything. Learn to adjust.

It's median, then. Sorry for a mistake. it's like you guys are keeping an imaginary score against me.

Shouldn't a search for truth be above the pettiness of keeping score?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 12:16:51 AM
I find this over and over again on this forum - what seems to be the simplest and directest question takes pages and pages of dodging and backsliding and ignoring until - maybe - you finally get an answer.

I'm sure there is a lot of discussion to be had about the psychology of it all, but I'm interested in a different question.

If there IS a god out there, and that god is as just and right and GOOD as most believers would have us believe - then why is all the dodging necessary in the first place?  Surely a god so good, so perfect, so right, would lead to discussions along the lines of:

Anfauglir: Can you explain why your god.....
Believer: (firmly) Yes.  It is because.....(specific and direct answer).
Anfauglir:  Ah, I see - that makes perfect sense.  Thank you.

Now THAT kind of god - the one where there was no need to dodge, no need to prevaricate, no need to shy away from "awkward" questions......THAT is a god that I could really get behind.  But these gods who are so tricksy, so convoluted, so demonstrative of so many negative behaviours that their believers have to dodge the questions and go into such lengthy apologetics......well, there just seems something suspicious about it all.

A truly good, truly godly god, would be very unlikely to raise any of these questions in the first place.  And it certainly wouldn't require the degree of evasion and goal-post shifting that we see so much of on these forums. 

If there was a truly good and godly god, it would be clear.  No nagging doubts, no endless arguments.  It would be clear and obvious to all.  The fact that it isn't may not necessarily mean there isn't a god out there.  But it sure makes it clear that there is something seriously wrong with the picture.
There probably is no need to answer or there are answers and no one understand it.
For instance many people perhaps cannot explain what frequencies are - they therefore lack the ability or vocabulary to explain said unknown - however it does not mean frequencies do not exist. Some things that were written for a primitve mind relative to science cannot be understood by those with a differnt mental and vocabulary make up. One would say it is all realtive to the receiver.

I'm finding quite amusing that you are illustrating the original post's point.
Forgive me for my ignorance, but can you explain why you say that?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 13, 2014, 12:31:26 AM
It's median, then. Sorry for a mistake. it's like you guys are keeping an imaginary score against me.

You have the highest smite score on the entire forum xD.

Shouldn't a search for truth be above the pettiness of keeping score?

Of course, but it doesn't help if one of the parties (Theists) never agrees with that.

Edit: you lied again (tisk tisk, god is going to be pissed). Median's signature is not what you claimed it to be.



Forgive me for my ignorance, but can you explain why you say that?

Your post was just a giant dodge, nothing direct.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 12:37:50 AM
Forgive me for my ignorance, but can you explain why you say that?

Your post was just a giant dodge, nothing direct.
I did not understand why he said that. What dodge?? I said exactly what I felt - "Giant Dodge" is just your exaggeration of the facts.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 13, 2014, 12:39:19 AM
I did not understand why he said that. What dodge?? I said exactly what I felt - "Giant Dodge" is just your exaggeration of the facts.

The OP asks for direct answers.

You went "around" the question to answer it, thus a dodge.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 12:44:40 AM
I did not understand why he said that. What dodge?? I said exactly what I felt - "Giant Dodge" is just your exaggeration of the facts.

The OP asks for direct answers.

You went "around" the question to answer it, thus a dodge.
Do you care to rephrase the question - I must have missed something specific?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 13, 2014, 12:48:20 AM
Do you care to rephrase the question - I must have missed something specific?

Why do i need to rephrase it?

The title of the thread IS the question, answering a question which talks about non-direct answers WITH a non-direct answer is a dodge.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 12:54:24 AM
Do you care to rephrase the question - I must have missed something specific?

Why do i need to rephrase it?

The title of the thread IS the question, answering a question which talks about non-direct answers WITH a non-direct answer is a dodge.
You assume that the answer is not direct. but it is
"1. There probably is no need to answer or
 2. there are answers and no one understands it.

then I explained in case you missed it
"For instance many people perhaps cannot explain what frequencies are - they therefore lack the ability or vocabulary to explain said unknown - however it does not mean frequencies do not exist."

And just in case that was not clear
"Some things that were written for a primitive mind relative to science cannot be understood by those with a different mental and vocabulary make up. One would say it is all relative to the receiver."

Where is said "Giant Dodge"? Perhaps the answer is something you cannot understand but does not mean it is not answered.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 13, 2014, 01:02:49 AM
You assume that the answer is not direct. but it is
"1. There probably is no need to answer or
 2. there are answers and no one understands it.

1: There is a need for an answer, otherwise there is no more reason to believe in a god than there is to believe in leprechauns.
2: If there is no answer, then why believe in a god without even knowing anything about said god?

then I explained in case you missed it
"For instance many people perhaps cannot explain what frequencies are - they therefore lack the ability or vocabulary to explain said unknown - however it does not mean frequencies do not exist."

Which is a dodge, it avoids the question by poking a tiny hole in it, and ignores the giant patch that needs to be applied.

And just in case that was not clear
"Some things that were written for a primitive mind relative to science cannot be understood by those with a different mental and vocabulary make up. One would say it is all relative to the receiver."

Are you suggesting all gods are real, and thus everything goes to hell AND heaven?
Because different receiving does not equate to different signals.

Where is said "Giant Dodge"? Perhaps the answer is something you cannot understand but does not mean it is not answered.

The point of the question itself proves that without a direct answer, the god cannot be as godly as it is claimed to be, and thus is no value of worshiping.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 01:16:03 AM
You assume that the answer is not direct. but it is
"1. There probably is no need to answer or
 2. there are answers and no one understands it.

1: There is a need for an answer, otherwise there is no more reason to believe in a god than there is to believe in leprechauns.
2: If there is no answer, then why believe in a god without even knowing anything about said god?

then I explained in case you missed it
"For instance many people perhaps cannot explain what frequencies are - they therefore lack the ability or vocabulary to explain said unknown - however it does not mean frequencies do not exist."

Which is a dodge, it avoids the question by poking a tiny hole in it, and ignores the giant patch that needs to be applied.

And just in case that was not clear
"Some things that were written for a primitive mind relative to science cannot be understood by those with a different mental and vocabulary make up. One would say it is all relative to the receiver."

Are you suggesting all gods are real, and thus everything goes to hell AND heaven?
Because different receiving does not equate to different signals.

Where is said "Giant Dodge"? Perhaps the answer is something you cannot understand but does not mean it is not answered.

The point of the question itself proves that without a direct answer, the god cannot be as godly as it is claimed to be, and thus is no value of worshiping.
Forgive me again but you seem to be lacking the vocabulary to understand my post. 
Your response appears to be adding more questions to the OP IE heaven and hell leprechauns and all sorts of spaget ti arms of nothing that you are creating without understanding the premise frequency. Perhaps it is the frequency that might be the key. Just saying. Peace.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 13, 2014, 01:22:10 AM
Forgive me again but you seem to be lacking the vocabulary to understand my post. 
Your response appears to be adding more questions to the OP IE heaven and hell leprechauns and all sorts of spaget ti arms of nothing that you are creating without understanding the premise frequency. Perhaps it is the frequency that might be the key. Just saying. Peace.

Do i really need to re-post the OP?...

I find this over and over again on this forum - what seems to be the simplest and directest question takes pages and pages of dodging and backsliding and ignoring until - maybe - you finally get an answer.

I'm sure there is a lot of discussion to be had about the psychology of it all, but I'm interested in a different question.

If there IS a god out there, and that god is as just and right and GOOD as most believers would have us believe - then why is all the dodging necessary in the first place?  Surely a god so good, so perfect, so right, would lead to discussions along the lines of:

Anfauglir: Can you explain why your god.....
Believer: (firmly) Yes.  It is because.....(specific and direct answer).
Anfauglir:  Ah, I see - that makes perfect sense.  Thank you.

Now THAT kind of god - the one where there was no need to dodge, no need to prevaricate, no need to shy away from "awkward" questions......THAT is a god that I could really get behind.  But these gods who are so tricksy, so convoluted, so demonstrative of so many negative behaviours that their believers have to dodge the questions and go into such lengthy apologetics......well, there just seems something suspicious about it all.

A truly good, truly godly god, would be very unlikely to raise any of these questions in the first place.  And it certainly wouldn't require the degree of evasion and goal-post shifting that we see so much of on these forums. 

If there was a truly good and godly god, it would be clear.  No nagging doubts, no endless arguments.  It would be clear and obvious to all.  The fact that it isn't may not necessarily mean there isn't a god out there.  But it sure makes it clear that there is something seriously wrong with the picture.

See this?

In a nutshell it is "Theists seem to never answer a direct question, thus something is messed up with the concept of god".

Going around the question only makes the threads title more true.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: skeptic54768 on January 13, 2014, 01:29:51 AM
Of course, but it doesn't help if one of the parties (Theists) never agrees with that.

Edit: you lied again (tisk tisk, god is going to be pissed). Median's signature is not what you claimed it to be.

That is wrong! Median's signature is the problem of evil, and I solved it. Yet, he still has it as his signature.

This tells me you guys don't listen to what we say and just ignore it.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: harbinger77 on January 13, 2014, 01:32:17 AM


No doubt the culture has an unhealthy hatred for Christianity,

Yeah that's why we have politician loudly proclaiming their Christianity every election cycle.
 &)

Really.... Who? NOT Obama. He's a muslim. Romney was Mormon NOT Christian. Who has been loud and proud since maybe Regan?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 01:34:23 AM
Do i really need to re-post the OP?...

I find this over and over again on this forum - what seems to be the simplest and directest question takes pages and pages of dodging and backsliding and ignoring until - maybe - you finally get an answer.

I'm sure there is a lot of discussion to be had about the psychology of it all, but I'm interested in a different question.

If there IS a god out there, and that god is as just and right and GOOD as most believers would have us believe - then why is all the dodging necessary in the first place?  Surely a god so good, so perfect, so right, would lead to discussions along the lines of:

Anfauglir: Can you explain why your god.....
Believer: (firmly) Yes.  It is because.....(specific and direct answer).
Anfauglir:  Ah, I see - that makes perfect sense.  Thank you.

Now THAT kind of god - the one where there was no need to dodge, no need to prevaricate, no need to shy away from "awkward" questions......THAT is a god that I could really get behind.  But these gods who are so tricksy, so convoluted, so demonstrative of so many negative behaviours that their believers have to dodge the questions and go into such lengthy apologetics......well, there just seems something suspicious about it all.

A truly good, truly godly god, would be very unlikely to raise any of these questions in the first place.  And it certainly wouldn't require the degree of evasion and goal-post shifting that we see so much of on these forums. 

If there was a truly good and godly god, it would be clear.  No nagging doubts, no endless arguments.  It would be clear and obvious to all.  The fact that it isn't may not necessarily mean there isn't a god out there.  But it sure makes it clear that there is something seriously wrong with the picture.

See this?

In a nutshell it is "Theists seem to never answer a direct question, thus something is messed up with the concept of god".

Going around the question only makes the threads title more true.
As I said the "vocabulary" does not clearly align the mentality to the "frequency" of the question to be discussed, but the OP has already presumed "God exists" without properly understanding the meaning or vibration of this word and as such does not understand the answers given relative to the wisdom of such a word. Note this is not a dodge. I am clearly either not understanding your need or lack off. In other words our mental frequencies are not being aligned for if it was we would have no discrepancies.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: skeptic54768 on January 13, 2014, 01:34:49 AM
Really.... Who? NOT Obama. He's a muslim. Romney was Mormon NOT Christian. Who has been loud and proud since maybe Regan?

The problem is a lot of the Christians are old. Nobody wants to see an old fuddy-duddy Christian. We need a nice young hip 35 year old upstanding Christian man who follows God's laws and is pure fun at the same time instead of the stuffy old farts that can't relate to the youth.

God never said that it can't be fun to praise Him. You don't have to be 65 years old walking around like you have a coat hangar in your shirt to worship God.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 13, 2014, 01:46:28 AM
As I said the "vocabulary" does not clearly align the mentality to the "frequency" of the question to be discussed, but the OP has already presumed "God exists" without properly understanding the meaning or vibration of this word and as such does not understand the answers given relative to the wisdom of such a word. Note this is not a dodge. I am clearly either not understanding your need or lack off. In other words our mental frequencies are not being aligned for if it was we would have no discrepancies.

Amazing, people think differently, i already knew that.

Now can you answer the question directly?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 01:53:41 AM
As I said the "vocabulary" does not clearly align the mentality to the "frequency" of the question to be discussed, but the OP has already presumed "God exists" without properly understanding the meaning or vibration of this word and as such does not understand the answers given relative to the wisdom of such a word. Note this is not a dodge. I am clearly either not understanding your need or lack off. In other words our mental frequencies are not being aligned for if it was we would have no discrepancies.

Amazing, people think differently, i already knew that.

Now can you answer the question directly?
Question: Why is it hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Answer: They are answering "directly" but your lack of understanding seems to be going unnoticed. It is not the answering that is not taking place it is the lack of understanding that is cyclic. It is for you to tell me what word you do not understand or my responses are limited.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 13, 2014, 01:57:31 AM
Question: Why is it hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Answer: They are answering "directly" but your lack of understanding seems to be going unnoticed. It is not the answering that is not taking place it is the lack of understanding that is cyclic. It is for you to tell me what word you do not understand or my responses are limited.

By answering it like so, it proves that any god that such a believer believes in cannot be as godly as one would claim.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Azdgari on January 13, 2014, 01:59:30 AM
Really.... Who? NOT Obama. He's a muslim. Romney was Mormon NOT Christian. Who has been loud and proud since maybe Regan?

Obama is also a demonic Reptilian.  The Illuminati have planted him there to bring on the 2nd coming.  Or something like that.

Anyway, to answer your question, how about Bush Jr.?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: harbinger77 on January 13, 2014, 02:03:24 AM

This is an answer. An individual answer. A stand. I can respect that much. I guess it pleases you to know for some odd reason Homeland security named the fundamental Christian public enemy #1 in America. I think 2013.


http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/

DHS has no such list.  However, given the rise of anti-American sentiment among the conservative sect it wouldn't surprise me.

You want to not get treated like a terrorist?  Stop acting like one.  Just like if you don't' want to be treated like a racist piece of s**t; don't act like a racist piece of s**t.

You f.ucks are forever threatening the president, and going around waving your guns in the air threatening violence every time some petty piece of bullshit doesn't go your way.  For example one person suggested that 'for the safety of the nation' if his political opponent were elected then it might require some brave American to shoot him.  Lets not forget how often the subject of 'secession has come up.  Usually every time you don't get to shove Christianity and government into the bedroom or get denied the ability to throw money at the feet of the wealthy.


So yeah, it's not that you just weasel out of direct answers, it's also that you guys are always trying to blame your farts on the dog while you're at it as well.
depends on how and where you search I guess.

According to the FBI , the "sovereign citizen movement" is made up of "anti-government
extremists who believe that even though they physically reside in this country, they are
separate or 'sovereign' from the United States."
These people, the FBI says, do not believe they have to answer to any government authority
and can cause a number of problems for law enforcement authorities.
But according to Trowbridge's letter, Kluczynski went much further, including "those who
believe America was founded on godly principles, Christians who take the Bible literally, and
'fundamentalists'."
http://www.examiner.com/article/colo-undersheriff-warns-state-police-homeland-security-to-target-christians

How about this news report. it's easy to find if you look in the right places.
http://www.publicadvocateusa.org/news/article.php?article=8530


or this...
On April 7, 2009, the Department of Homeland Security issued a controversial report on "rightwing
extremism." Titled Rightwing Extremism : Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in
Radicalization and Recruitment , its warning seems to be aimed at creating a special class of
Americans: those who question and resist the rapid shift to socialism. These targeted groups (who
still appreciate our Constitution and its promised human rights) must now be vilified as "the enemy
of the people" -- a dangerous threat to peace and unity. According to this report,
http://www.crossroad.to/News/homeland.htm

For those who say things about Jihad envy or some garbage like that. I challenge you to find talk like this any where about muslims. This is happening and you are in it.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 02:10:55 AM
Question: Why is it hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Answer: They are answering "directly" but your lack of understanding seems to be going unnoticed. It is not the answering that is not taking place it is the lack of understanding that is cyclic. It is for you to tell me what word you do not understand or my responses are limited.

By answering it like so, it proves that any god that such a believer believes in cannot be as godly as one would claim.
It proves nothing unless your mental faculties have aligned itself to comprehend what you ask. You can only ask a question based on what you already know so that you can build upon it thus fine tuning your mental frequency and no mistake is being made and no ignorance is spouted and everyone is deluded and upset. Peace.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 13, 2014, 02:29:09 AM
It proves nothing unless your mental faculties have aligned itself to comprehend what you ask. You can only ask a question based on what you already know so that you can build upon it thus fine tuning your mental frequency and no mistake is being made and no ignorance is spouted and everyone is deluded and upset. Peace.

Not to nit pick, but you can also ask a question to gain new knowledge, even if you do not know it already.

But this still does not get any progress done other than "Theists answer it, its just that you don't have the same mindset".

Which IMO is crap, as you can use it for anything.

"Genieists answer questions, its just that you do not see it"

Etc.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 02:45:11 AM
It proves nothing unless your mental faculties have aligned itself to comprehend what you ask. You can only ask a question based on what you already know so that you can build upon it thus fine tuning your mental frequency and no mistake is being made and no ignorance is spouted and everyone is deluded and upset. Peace.

Not to nit pick, but you can also ask a question to gain new knowledge, even if you do not know it already.

But this still does not get any progress done other than "Theists answer it, its just that you don't have the same mindset".

Which IMO is crap, as you can use it for anything.

"Genieists answer questions, its just that you do not see it"

Etc.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion but a fact remains a facts. Science is clear on what it aims to achieve by the scientific method. The imagination however is whatever you think and create out of imagining stuff - which clearly is not there and although beautiful and imaginative it remains outside the realm of science. It is the logic and the method that theists use to help explain these things created out of atheists imagination to put them on the right track.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 13, 2014, 02:53:07 AM
Everyone is entitled to an opinion but a fact remains a facts.

Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, but some a shittier than others.

Science is clear on what it aims to achieve by the scientific method.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2ShNPVSHJRA/UU9EIUenB4I/AAAAAAAABVM/70iSKqZ6qms/s400/etg.png)

The imagination however is whatever you think and create out of imagining stuff - which clearly is not there and although beautiful and imaginative it remains outside the realm of science.

I know what an imagination is, I also know that an imagination does not equate to reality, and thus should not be used to solve reality.

It is the logic and the method that theists use to help explain these things created out of atheists imagination to put them on the right track.

Wait...
Are you saying that theists make up bullshit...just to keep scientists working?
I mean...it looks like that, but i would never say that...
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 03:07:51 AM
Everyone is entitled to an opinion but a fact remains a facts.

Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, but some a shittier than others.

Science is clear on what it aims to achieve by the scientific method.

The imagination however is whatever you think and create out of imagining stuff - which clearly is not there and although beautiful and imaginative it remains outside the realm of science.

I know what an imagination is, I also know that an imagination does not equate to reality, and thus should not be used to solve reality.

It is the logic and the method that theists use to help explain these things created out of atheists imagination to put them on the right track.

Wait...
Are you saying that theists make up bullshit...just to keep scientists working?
I mean...it looks like that, but i would never say that...
As I said originally. "It is not that some are not answering your questions" - it is more like "you are not understanding the answers". Could be your mental frequency(electroencephalography) is not matching the frequencies of the theists. Why don't you keep it simple. First admit that the words and questions are being answered is not at your level of comprehension that is why you are not understanding it. No one has mentioned BS and assholes apart from you. I suspect there are good reasons why parents tell stories to their kids. Partly for the entertainment value and partly to pass a lesson of a sort but never trying to hurt it - more like to protect it when it does not quite understand the bigger picture.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 13, 2014, 03:17:13 AM
As I said originally. "It is not that some are not answering your questions" - it is more like "you are not understanding the answers".

No, its more like "Gee whiz, i wonder why none of those answers make sense to people who do not believe in a deity". Maybe because there is no forced delusion there.

Could be your mental frequency(electroencephalography) is not matching the frequencies of the theists.

As far as i am concerned, there is no such thing as a "theist exclusive brain frequency that makes all bullcrap answers true".

First admit that the words and questions are being answered is not at your level of comprehension that is why you are not understanding it.

What?
Nyet! Why the hell should i accept an answer that is based on something that objects with reality.

No one has mentioned BS and assholes apart from you.

Okay, right, so i typed words. Your point is? (Its also really hot here, and i have a serious sun burn, so i am a bit angry...)

I suspect there are good reasons why parents tell stories to their kids. Partly for the entertainment value and partly to pass a lesson of a sort but never trying to hurt it - more like to protect it when it does not quite understand the bigger picture.

No seriously.
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lzcmm9208b1r3k1m8o1_500.png)
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 03:30:46 AM
No, its more like "Gee whiz, i wonder why none of those answers make sense to people who do not believe in a deity". Maybe because there is no forced delusion there.
Why does eternity go on forever? In my understanding no one is forcing anyone to believe anything.

As far as i am concerned, there is no such thing as a "theist exclusive brain frequency that makes all bullcrap answers true".
That is clearly your belief and not science.

What?
Nyet! Why the hell should i accept an answer that is based on something that objects with reality.
Your lack of understanding is clear - no one is asking you to believe you are not understanding - that is clear for all to see.

Okay, right, so i typed words. Your point is? (Its also really hot here, and i have a serious sun burn, so i am a bit angry...)
Lets face it - anger is based on the mental emotional workings of a toddler not getting its toys and throwing a tantrum. Unless you have a better explanation for your lack of understanding other than frequencies which in my opinion is much closer to the truth than any other thing you have said to clairfy it.

I suspect there are good reasons why parents tell stories to their kids. Partly for the entertainment value and partly to pass a lesson of a sort but never trying to hurt it - more like to protect it when it does not quite understand the bigger picture.

No seriously.
Is pictures really necessary for you?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 13, 2014, 03:42:03 AM
Why does eternity go on forever? In my understanding no one is forcing anyone to believe anything.

Err, because eternity can be defined as "forever"?

Just like how a square always has 4 sides.

That is clearly your belief and not science.

Now that i think of it, burden of proof.
Post your source for your claim or be handwaved.

Your lack of understanding is clear - no one is asking you to believe you are not understanding - that is clear for all to see.

I think i can say, with partial certainty, that others here would agree that crap answers should not be accepted.

Lets face it - anger is based on the mental emotional workings of a toddler not getting its toys and throwing a tantrum.

Anger is the emotion caused by metaphorical gears grinding, making the machine get pissed off.

Unless you have a better explanation for your lack of understanding other than frequencies which in my opinion is much closer to the truth than any other thing you have said to clairfy it.

You have not even posted a damned link, you made baseless assertions that have no more value that anyone posting anything.

I also made no other claim than "bullshit answer should not be accepted".

Is pictures really necessary for you?

As a Brony who can be considered "generic", yes, posting images of ponies when able is necessary, when relevant.
What is your boggle?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 04:04:14 AM
Err, because eternity can be defined as "forever"?

Just like how a square always has 4 sides.
Its your belief that eternity goes on forever - there is no proof of that.

Now that i think of it, burden of proof.
Post your source for your claim or be handwaved.
I do not need a hand waved. Especially from someone not understanding what he is talking about. All I need is for you to build on what you really know rather than on what you do not. That would make sense and provide the opportunity for progress. I can give out a stars but that is just infants and I cannot treat you like that?

I think i can say, with partial certainty, that others here would agree that crap answers should not be accepted.
I have not put forward a crap answer - and it is your claim that others are posting crap especially religious or theist - it is purely because you do not understand frequencies that you make such claims and do not build on what you know or do not know - it is not  the answer that is wrong or crap - it could be simply that you have no clue.

Anger is the emotion caused by metaphorical gears grinding, making the machine get pissed off.
So you are not in control of your own machine? Anger might just be a frequency of mind where the conscious observer has no need to use that frequency as it is so infantile and childish and clear to the parent looking at the sibling.

You have not even posted a damned link, you made baseless assertions that have no more value that anyone posting anything.
I did ask you to rephrase the question but you claimed it was enough as it is. Clearly you are not understanding the word frequency ad many others. What do you really know or is this your ego ranting?

I also made no other claim than "bullshit answer should not be accepted".
yet nothing you have said about the answer gives any indication that you understand it in its entirety.

As a Brony who can be considered "generic", yes, posting images of ponies when able is necessary, when relevant.
What is your boggle?
Enjoy yourself. whatever you like - carry on.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 13, 2014, 04:19:32 AM
Its your belief that eternity goes on forever - there is no proof of that.

Incorrect, eternity is a word, and that word can be defined as forever.
Thus if you use the right definition, eternity means forever.

If you want to argue that words are not as they are defined as, do so in the chatter area.

I do not need a hand waved. Especially from someone not understanding what he is talking about. All I need is for you to build on what you really know rather than on what you do not. That would make sense and provide the opportunity for progress. I can give out a stars but that is just infants and I cannot treat you like that?

You refuse to prove your baseless claim?
(-1 incoming)

I have not put forward a crap answer - and it is your claim that others are posting crap especially religious or theist - it is purely because you do not understand frequencies that you make such claims and do not build on what you know or do not know - it is not  the answer that is wrong or crap - it could be simply that you have no clue.

I am not going to argue with someone who refuses to prove his claim of mutually exclusive theist brain frequencies.

So you are not in control of your own machine? Anger might just be a frequency of mind where the conscious observer has no need to use that frequency as it is so infantile and childish and clear to the parent looking at the sibling.

Bah, the one who is arguing for people who think there is a magical sky daddy who will take care of you is calling ME childish? What a ridiculous sentiment.

Enjoy yourself. whatever you like - carry on.

Will do.

Finally: http://thumb.egloos.net:8080/460x0/http://pds20.egloos.com/pds/201010/26/64/e0003064_4cc631ce21c73.jpg (http://thumb.egloos.net:8080/460x0/http://pds20.egloos.com/pds/201010/26/64/e0003064_4cc631ce21c73.jpg)
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on January 13, 2014, 04:46:19 AM
We do answer questions as best we can. But, trying to fully understand God is tough for people and atheists think we're stumped.

Imagine an ant trying to answer questions about a human. They would not be able to. This doesn't mean humans don't exist. it just means the ants can't fully understand us.

There probably is no need to answer or there are answers and no one understand it.
For instance many people perhaps cannot explain what frequencies are - they therefore lack the ability or vocabulary to explain said unknown - however it does not mean frequencies do not exist. Some things that were written for a primitve mind relative to science cannot be understood by those with a differnt mental and vocabulary make up. One would say it is all realtive to the receiver.

Two responses that seem to echo what Mooby was saying - that god is simply so different, so unimaginably unexplainable, that most believers simply CANNOT articulate it.

I've got no problem with that.  OldChurchGuy for example is fully prepared to say "I don't know" when he reaches that stage.  But many, many other Christians (I would say most) feel that "I don't know" somehow would make them lose.....even though they all agree that their god is unknowable, moves in mysterious ways, and all that.  They want to push on, explain and explain the unexplainable - and in doing so, in my experience drift further and further from answering the questions I am posing.

They also miss the point of the OP itself: that a god that was GOD, that was LOVE, simply wouldn't cause these questions in the first place.  The questions would not be able to exist.

And they also miss the point that salvation comes from belief and acceptance, at their own god's dictat - and that at the same time, their god is the one who determines his level of comprehensibility.  Its like spending a year in advanced calculus with the teacher going "well, its all really complicated, we'll never understand it and I can't really explain it" - then at final exam you are told "100% score, or we shoot you in the head".

Is any believer prepared to square that circle for me?  That salvation requires understanding, but that understanding is extremely difficult (if not impossible) to come by?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 13, 2014, 08:34:56 AM

Who? NOT Obama. He's a muslim.

He isn't. That's a fact. He was baptized in The United Church of Christ. He attends church. He goes out with an uncovered head. He eats pork. He has never been shown as an adult to bow to Mecca.

So, once again, you ignore fact.



Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 13, 2014, 08:39:26 AM

If there was a truly good and godly god, it would be clear.  No nagging doubts, no endless arguments.  It would be clear and obvious to all.  The fact that it isn't may not necessarily mean there isn't a god out there.  But it sure makes it clear that there is something seriously wrong with the picture.
There probably is no need to answer or there are answers and no one understand it.
For instance many people perhaps cannot explain what frequencies are - they therefore lack the ability or vocabulary to explain said unknown - however it does not mean frequencies do not exist. Some things that were written for a primitve mind relative to science cannot be understood by those with a differnt mental and vocabulary make up. One would say it is all realtive to the receiver.

I'm finding quite amusing that you are illustrating the original post's point.
Forgive me for my ignorance, but can you explain why you say that?

Because he states a truly good god would make it clear, and you appeal to how it has to be unclear. Are you saying your god lacks the ability to make it clear, or the will to make it clear?

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 13, 2014, 08:55:47 AM

Imagine an ant trying to answer questions about a human. They would not be able to. This doesn't mean humans don't exist. it just means the ants can't fully understand us.


You stated man cannot comprehend God any more than an ant can comprehend man. I state that, first, an ant can actually intact with man on a limited basis...confirm man's existence...even though man's way, purposes and desires are beyond an ant's comprehension. But Religion does quite the opposite...it cannot even show God's existence, but states whats God ways, purpose, and desires in very human terms. That is why I am tired of hearing the ant analogy...there is no analogy.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: G-Roll on January 13, 2014, 09:19:11 AM
Tack this, Poag... Your publication date is 10FEB2009
Maybe you should check into something a bit more up to date.
Well... Seeming you are the expert on this subject I expected you to post something more update. This is the latest DOD instruction I know of. If you got something more recent that says you cannot pray whenever you want I would love to see it.
   
Quote
Not allowing me to say "in jesus name" is a violation of my freedom of speech. You don't mind that though?
You can say in Jesus name all you want. You can get a group of guys together (willing participants) and pray to Jesus all you want. What doesn’t happen anymore is Chaplains cant preach to me and say in Jesus name in public formations. And yes no more crosses at Easter or Christmas. The US as a whole has gone secular for holidays.
If I thought your freedom of speech was being threatened then yes I would support you. If I thought the US government was making it illegal to be Christian I would be posting words of support. But alas that is not the case.

Quote
At any rate. I can say as a deployed infantry soldier with secret security clearance, Your government lies to you.
As a deployed infantry soldier you should know you can't post things like this on social media sites. Be careful dude. I have seen people get kicked out over this stuff. Grant it was on Facebook with blatant hey it's me and here are some pictures... but still.
 
Quote
The question is when it comes will you stand with the Christian and his American right to be.
Sure. Just provide me with some evidence of your persecution. Something other than some Christian website that thinks Merica is being torn apart by Obama the antichrist who is killing Merica because he is inclusive of all faiths. Not just your faith. I stopped reading at that part.
And a fox news link? Do you have anything DOD, US Army, or anything official? Again like I said should I see with my own eyes or be provided evidence of Christian persecution in the US military you are all just full of crocodile tears.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Graybeard on January 13, 2014, 09:24:02 AM
Question: Why is it hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Answer: They are answering "directly" but your lack of understanding seems to be going unnoticed. It is not the answering that is not taking place it is the lack of understanding that is cyclic. It is for you to tell me what word you do not understand or my responses are limited.
To a certain extent, this is true. Religion has its own language. Those who are brought up in religion are bi-lingual.

This bi-lingual ability only kicks in when religion is the subject of the conversation.

Religious language is very poorly defined and often, a simple noun, e.g. soul, has no easy translation into everyday English. Even amongst the religious, its meaning is not clear – we see this in discussions as to what exactly a soul is and does.

Religious language is, of necessity, vague and imprecise. Nothing of the main tenets has been seen, so its definition is bound to be fuzzy and subjective.

The religious can speak “normal English” though – you ask a Christian engineer to tell you about the forces on a piece of metal and his description will be just as good as an atheist engineer’s. We do not expect the Christian engineer to talk of demons pressing down on the metal or “God’s Grace” preventing the object from collapsing.

When speaking of religion, the atheist wants the facts not some nebulous bullsh*t but the religious person slips straight away into his second language and blames the atheist for “not understanding.”

The truth is there is no “understanding”. No two Christians agree on the majority of concepts but two engineers do.

This is best shown in the creation of the universe. The Christian will explain in “Religiousese” that “God spoke it into existence.” And will then slip back into “normal English” to ask what scientific proof is there of the Big Bang. – As if “speaking something into existence” actually meant something and was explicable.

Added to this, the religious speak amongst themselves in a mixture of “normal English” and “Religiousese.” They are quite happy in both languages and when discussing the finer points of “What is the soul” they throw in as much Religiouses as possible in a sort of “See how fluent I am” style.

So, in your explanation
Quote
They are answering "directly" but your lack of understanding seems to be going unnoticed.

“Lack of understanding” means “you do not speak “Religiousese””… but even if I did, my understanding would not be greater, as you will find out if you try to explain the Trinity.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 13, 2014, 09:41:16 AM

The truth is there is no “understanding”. No two Christians agree on the majority of concepts but two engineers do.


Amongst other reasons, there a reason two engineers have a common knowledge of concepts, because if they don't, the project they are working on together will fail. This was understood early on when the Imperial Roman Standardized units of measurement were created.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: jaimehlers on January 13, 2014, 10:03:53 AM
Really.... Who? NOT Obama. He's a muslim. Romney was Mormon NOT Christian. Who has been loud and proud since maybe Regan?
It seems you've bought into the right-wing propaganda aimed at discrediting Obama by any means possible.  Fact is, Obama is no more a Muslim than I am.

And Mormons are a Christian sect, just one that's not accepted by the majority of other Christians.  I mean, their church is called "the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints", after all.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Ivellios on January 13, 2014, 11:39:38 AM
Jesuis- Do you know how insulting it is to be told, "I could answer the question, but you wouldn't understand it anyways!" is?

Most people do not have the intellectual honesty to admit they don't understand something, and instead try to wiggle thier way out of it, in hopes that the direction they take something causes the person they are conversing with to forget that there wasn't ananswer.

I've had this one thing tied to my profile for years[1], very few know what it is or why it's there. It's from the movie Patlabor. There are these mechanized piloted suits used for dangerous tasks called 'Labors.' When someone uses them to commit crime or just run amok, like the famous tank incident, instead of calling the National Guard they have thier own police force unit with them, Patrol Labors.

In the movie the manufacturer released a new OS, coined the Hyper Operating System, or HOS. However there are certain problems with it. So this one cop visits his old friend that works for the manufacturer and asks, "Is it safe?"

His reply was, "We've got good results from customes that are pleased with our product. It's being used in all the top industralized nations!" blah blah blah

cop, "None of that is what I asked you! Is it safe?"

----------------------

A dodge coupled with Appeal to Popularity, and a few other Logical Fallacies. Just like a response from Christians.

If you didn't take that 'holier than thou' attitude and treat us like infants, and used everyday language, not just the one you use on sundays, with other people that use said language only on sundays, too. An engineer that truly understands thier work, and knows that you're not going to understand 'engineer speak' is going to use modern everyday speech, and use analogies that you can understand.

That's what seperates a good teacher or communicator from a ****ty one. More often that not, the problem is the 'teacher.' How many times did the Apostles just not get it when being taught by the "good teacher"? Did he just say, "Well, you're just to stupid to understand, so I'm not going to waste my time explaining it to you,"?

This is also why your ant analogy fails. God is All-Knowing, All-Loving and All-Powerful. ie He could speak ant if he chooses to. He could have made the ant so he could talk normally, and the ant would understand. He could just 'poof' understanding in the ant's brain. Since he's allegedly All-Loving, one would expect him to do something, rather than to leave them stumble and burn. Like the 'little birds outside in the snow' analogy you're giving God, an Omni-max being, human limitations. You're pigeon-holing him. And if christians who cannot communicate is the absolute best he can do, well now, it just doesn't seem like he's the 'god' that everyone seems to be describing. Like they've got a few of the descriptors *** backwards or something. I think it was Hatter that said something like, "If I can think of a better way, then he's not perfect."

Edit: Footnote added. Grammar and punctuation.
 1. Location box, used to show under gender, iirc. First said Sol System, but after so many Christians sounding like him...
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: MadBunny on January 13, 2014, 11:54:19 AM
depends on how and where you search I guess.

According to the FBI , the "sovereign citizen movement" is made up of "anti-government
extremists who believe that even though they physically reside in this country, they are
separate or 'sovereign' from the United States."
These people, the FBI says, do not believe they have to answer to any government authority
and can cause a number of problems for law enforcement authorities.
But according to Trowbridge's letter, Kluczynski went much further, including "those who
believe America was founded on godly principles, Christians who take the Bible literally, and
'fundamentalists'."
http://www.examiner.com/article/colo-undersheriff-warns-state-police-homeland-security-to-target-christians

How about this news report. it's easy to find if you look in the right places.
http://www.publicadvocateusa.org/news/article.php?article=8530


I don't want to get into 'the dictionary' game here but do you understand what secession means?  So all of your blowhard boyfriends yabbering about how great they think that idea is, are literally people who may reside in the country but have no desire to be part of it.

"the examiner"?  That thing is a fucking rag.  I wouldn't wipe *your* ass with it.  I just went there and for kicks clicked on the Christie page.  It's full of opinion pieces about how the traffic thing is all a liberal plot to make him look bad and hurt his white house chances.



or this...
On April 7, 2009, the Department of Homeland Security issued a controversial report on "rightwing
extremism." Titled Rightwing Extremism : Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in
Radicalization and Recruitment , its warning seems to be aimed at creating a special class of
Americans: those who question and resist the rapid shift to socialism. These targeted groups (who
still appreciate our Constitution and its promised human rights) must now be vilified as "the enemy
of the people" -- a dangerous threat to peace and unity. According to this report,
http://www.crossroad.to/News/homeland.htm

For those who say things about Jihad envy or some garbage like that. I challenge you to find talk like this any where about muslims. This is happening and you are in it.

Do you really want to get into a discussion of how fucking stupid this is?  Let me guess, you're all about Benghazi, Obama being a Muslim/Kenyan, and health care being the new slavery.  Muslims are not a danger to this country right now, its people like you.   


If you are actually a member of the US armed forces are you intimate; you are a disgrace to that uniform and do not deserve to be a representative of this country.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Graybeard on January 13, 2014, 11:55:52 AM
Its your belief that eternity goes on forever - there is no proof of that.
As "forever" is the definition of eternity, it requires no proof - it is true by definition. If you challenge it or deny it, simply put, you are wrong. And that is that - case closed.

Carry on and this time try to keep up.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: MadBunny on January 13, 2014, 11:56:33 AM
Really.... Who? NOT Obama. He's a muslim. Romney was Mormon NOT Christian. Who has been loud and proud since maybe Regan?
It seems you've bought into the right-wing propaganda aimed at discrediting Obama by any means possible.  Fact is, Obama is no more a Muslim than I am.

And Mormons are a Christian sect, just one that's not accepted by the majority of other Christians.  I mean, their church is called "the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints", after all.

He's so Muslim that he CONSTANTLY praises god at the end of every speech and address, attends a Christian church every week, eats non-halal food, lets his wife and kids run around bareheaded and bare armed.

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: G-Roll on January 13, 2014, 12:01:49 PM
He's so Muslim that he CONSTANTLY praises god at the end of every speech and address, attends a Christian church every week, eats non-halal food, lets his wife and kids run around bareheaded and bare armed.

Makes me wonder if it would be an issue if Obama was Muslim. If so why? Why does Obama's religious identity matter to them so long as it is not in the extreme? I don’t get these people.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Ivellios on January 13, 2014, 12:03:33 PM
If he ever was a muslim, he would be an apostate now, and they hate those more than anyone else. They're actually commanded to kill apostates.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 12:33:55 PM
Its your belief that eternity goes on forever - there is no proof of that.

Incorrect, eternity is a word, and that word can be defined as forever.
Thus if you use the right definition, eternity means forever.

If you want to argue that words are not as they are defined as, do so in the chatter area.

You just proved how you do not understand and that was my point.
Lets say then you accept the word Eternity because it is in the dictionary and it means Eternal. So is the word God.  It is a word like Eternity meaning it is eternal and you accept that by your faith that the dictionary(unknown author) is correct. According to you. The word is be definition makes it so. Not much to conclude apart from my original statement. Some just o not understand the answers given.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Ivellios on January 13, 2014, 12:49:23 PM
You just proved how you do not understand and that was my point.
Lets say then you accept the word Eternity because it is in the dictionary and it means Eternal. So is the word God.  It is a word like Eternity meaning it is eternal and you accept that by your faith that the dictionary(unknown author) is correct. According to you. The word is be definition makes it so. Not much to conclude apart from my original statement. Some just o not understand the answers given.

wow, just wow.

If you cannot trust the dictionary, what can you trust? But because the dictionary is true, the bible is true? Or, are you saying, "The bible is true despite the dictionary being false?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/eternity?s=t (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/eternity?s=t)
eternity ?

e·ter·ni·ty  [ih-tur-ni-tee]  Show IPA
noun, plural e·ter·ni·ties.
1. infinite time; duration without beginning or end.
2. eternal existence, especially as contrasted with mortal life: the eternity of God.
3. Theology . the timeless state into which the soul passes at a person's death.
4. an endless or seemingly endless period of time: We had to wait an eternity for the check to arrive.
5. eternities, the truths or realities of life and thought that are regarded as timeless or eternal.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/eternal (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/eternal)

e·ter·nal  [ih-tur-nl]  Show IPA
adjective
1. without beginning or end; lasting forever; always existing (opposed to temporal ): eternal life.
2. perpetual; ceaseless; endless: eternal quarreling; eternal chatter.
3. enduring; immutable: eternal principles.
4. Metaphysics . existing outside all relations of time; not subject to change.
noun
5. something that is eternal.
6. the Eternal, God.

Italicized: Well, I was once taught in school that you cannot use a particular word in it's very own definition. That's circular logic in it's truest form, making the definition meaningless. 

Bolded: Proof that A&A was correct about Eternity being Forever as GB put it, "It is defined as forever." No matter how much you wish to deny reaity, it's still here.

A dictionary is used as a tool so that when you use words, we know what you mean, and when we use words, you know what we mean. It's a reference book. When you cannot establish a shared meaning of a word, communication is difficult, or even worthless. Since you're redefining as you type, it's no wonder we don't get what you're saying, since you're not communicating in any meaningful way. As I stated before, guess upon whom falls that responsibility?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 12:58:01 PM

If there was a truly good and godly god, it would be clear.  No nagging doubts, no endless arguments.  It would be clear and obvious to all.  The fact that it isn't may not necessarily mean there isn't a god out there.  But it sure makes it clear that there is something seriously wrong with the picture.
There probably is no need to answer or there are answers and no one understand it.
For instance many people perhaps cannot explain what frequencies are - they therefore lack the ability or vocabulary to explain said unknown - however it does not mean frequencies do not exist. Some things that were written for a primitve mind relative to science cannot be understood by those with a different mental and vocabulary make up. One would say it is all relative to the receiver.

I'm finding quite amusing that you are illustrating the original post's point.
Forgive me for my ignorance, but can you explain why you say that?

Because he states a truly good god would make it clear, and you appeal to how it has to be unclear. Are you saying your god lacks the ability to make it clear, or the will to make it clear?
Since one is accepting that there is such a thing as a truly good God then the problem is not with God not being truly good or with it making itself unclear but more to do with the individuals trying to interpret and not comprehending what a truly good God means relative to its perhaps eternal consciousness and awareness versus our lack of.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Ivellios on January 13, 2014, 01:10:52 PM
Since one is accepting that there is such a thing as a truly good God then the problem is not with God not being truly good or with it making itself unclear but more to do with the individuals trying to interpret and not comprehending what a truly good God means relative to its perhaps eternal consciousness and awareness versus our lack of.

What...

the...

???????

The only one "accepting that there is such a thing as a truely good god" is you. ie Christians who assert they follow a Perfect, All-Knowing, All-Loving, All-Powerful good god. That loves us so much, and wants a relationship with us, but we have to do all the work, and talking to him is like talking to a brick wall. An All-knowing God would see the results, rather know beforehand, of which methods of communication would work, and which ones would not. If God was all-knowing, and All-loving and good, then he'd find a way that you would understand the first time, for all time. If there is a miscommunication or a misunderstanding then it is the one who can look into one's kokoro[1] and should know the best way to communicate to us.

Edit: punctuation and grammar, as evidenced by hatter's quote.
 1. japanese: heart, mind, soul. all 3 for the price of 1. ~.^ since 'soul' is indistinguishable from one's mind
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: MadBunny on January 13, 2014, 01:11:48 PM
He's so Muslim that he CONSTANTLY praises god at the end of every speech and address, attends a Christian church every week, eats non-halal food, lets his wife and kids run around bareheaded and bare armed.

Makes me wonder if it would be an issue if Obama was Muslim. If so why? Why does Obama's religious identity matter to them so long as it is not in the extreme? I don’t get these people.

I suspect the problem isn't religion so much as skin pigmentation.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 13, 2014, 01:18:24 PM
An All-knowing God would see the results, rather know beforehand the results of which methods of communication would work and which ones would not.

Precisely what I am saying and what the theist is finding so hard to answer a direct question, directly.

Perhaps the title should be "Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question without dodging and obfuscation?"
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 13, 2014, 01:25:57 PM
He's so Muslim that he CONSTANTLY praises god at the end of every speech and address, attends a Christian church every week, eats non-halal food, lets his wife and kids run around bareheaded and bare armed.

Makes me wonder if it would be an issue if Obama was Muslim. If so why? Why does Obama's religious identity matter to them so long as it is not in the extreme? I don’t get these people.

I suspect the problem isn't religion so much as skin pigmentation.

While I hate the meme, "Everyone who dislikes Obama is a racist;" I have come to the conclusion " Every Birther and person who claims Obama is a Muslim is very likely a racist"

 

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 01:26:46 PM
You just proved how you do not understand and that was my point.
Lets say then you accept the word Eternity because it is in the dictionary and it means Eternal. So is the word God.  It is a word like Eternity meaning it is eternal and you accept that by your faith that the dictionary(unknown author) is correct. According to you. The word is be definition makes it so. Not much to conclude apart from my original statement. Some just o not understand the answers given.

wow, just wow.

If you cannot trust the dictionary, what can you trust? But because the dictionary is true, the bible is true? Or, are you saying, "The bible is true despite the dictionary being false?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/eternity?s=t (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/eternity?s=t)
eternity ?

e·ter·ni·ty  [ih-tur-ni-tee]  Show IPA
noun, plural e·ter·ni·ties.
1. infinite time; duration without beginning or end.
2. eternal existence, especially as contrasted with mortal life: the eternity of God.
3. Theology . the timeless state into which the soul passes at a person's death.
4. an endless or seemingly endless period of time: We had to wait an eternity for the check to arrive.
5. eternities, the truths or realities of life and thought that are regarded as timeless or eternal.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/eternal (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/eternal)

e·ter·nal  [ih-tur-nl]  Show IPA
adjective
1. without beginning or end; lasting forever; always existing (opposed to temporal ): eternal life.
2. perpetual; ceaseless; endless: eternal quarreling; eternal chatter.
3. enduring; immutable: eternal principles.
4. Metaphysics . existing outside all relations of time; not subject to change.
noun
5. something that is eternal.
6. the Eternal, God.

Italicized: Well, I was once taught in school that you cannot use a particular word in it's very own definition. That's circular logic in it's truest form, making the definition meaningless. 

Bolded: Proof that A&A was correct about Eternity being Forever as GB put it, "It is defined as forever." No matter how much you wish to deny reaity, it's still here.

A dictionary is used as a meduim so that when you use words, we know what you mean, and when we use words, you know what we mean. It's a reference book. When you cannot establish a shared meaning of a word, communication is difficult, or even worthless. Since you're redefining as you type, it's no wonder we don't get what you're saying, since you're not communicating in any meaningful way. As I stated before, guess upon whom falls that responsibility?
You said "If you cannot trust the dictionary what can you trust".
All it takes is for you to have faith in it and to believe in it, but the dictionary is not a person of truth nor a holder of wisdom yet you trust it - maybe out of the fear or the insecurity that if it be wrong you lose all -- it weilds such power over you for you to have placed it in such an important role in your existence. It is my understanding that it is simply a collection of thoughts an ideas pertaining to meanings which are forever evolving with time. Not to be taken as dogmatic but as a tool. Its meanings come and go depending on the day and popular usage by us humans who use words to express an inner working of their minds consciousness and thus by definition gives rise to more meaningless expressions which is not eternally embedded in stone but flexible with time. It would be unwise for us to hold it up as an authority in eternity especially when trying to clarify something so all conscious and so eternal as God - don't you think?

That is of course if you accept the definition of God as eternal thus making you a believer that it exists because it is in the dictionary resulting in circular argument leading to your defeat.  {all relative to yourself and those who believe in the dictionary of course}. Maybe this believing an trusting and having faith in the dictionary is a problem for certain human beings. Perhaps the vocabulary is not completed for them to fully understand the frequency of the meaning of the God. Peace.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 01:31:23 PM
Since one is accepting that there is such a thing as a truly good God then the problem is not with God not being truly good or with it making itself unclear but more to do with the individuals trying to interpret and not comprehending what a truly good God means relative to its perhaps eternal consciousness and awareness versus our lack of.

What...

the...

???????

The only one "accepting that there is such a thing as a truely good god" is you. ie Christians who assert they follow a Perfect, All-Knowing, All-Loving, All-Powerful good god. That loves us so much, and wants a relationship with us, but we have to do all the work, and talking to him is like talking to a brick wall. An All-knowing God would see the results, rather know beforehand, of which methods of communication would work, and which ones would not. If God was all-knowing, and All-loving and good, then he'd find a way that you would understand the first time, for all time. If there is a miscommunication or a misunderstanding then it is the one who can look into one's kokoro[1] and should know the best way to communicate to us.

Edit: punctuation and grammar, as evidenced by hatter's quote.
 1. japanese: heart, mind, soul. all 3 for the price of 1. ~.^ since 'soul' is indistinguishable from one's mind
Are you positive about all of this? One would say there are a lot of unknowns and broad sweeping statemets in this post.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: G-Roll on January 13, 2014, 01:36:53 PM
He's so Muslim that he CONSTANTLY praises god at the end of every speech and address, attends a Christian church every week, eats non-halal food, lets his wife and kids run around bareheaded and bare armed.

Makes me wonder if it would be an issue if Obama was Muslim. If so why? Why does Obama's religious identity matter to them so long as it is not in the extreme? I don’t get these people.

I suspect the problem isn't religion so much as skin pigmentation.

I figured it was the us vs them/tribalism thing. If he was Muslim then he is not one of us, thus not worthy of the title or job of president. Skin pigmentation maybe.. but I think it’s the religion that they have an issue with and the images of other religions being their enemies rather than their countrymen.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: jdawg70 on January 13, 2014, 01:37:55 PM
Perhaps the vocabulary is not completed for them to fully understand the frequency of the meaning of the God. Peace.
Jesuis, you are correct in saying that vocabulary - words - do not affect reality, but are merely tools to help us communicate in our way to describe reality.

The problem, however, is that you don't seem to be making an attempt to establish common ground on what words mean.  I think the back-and-forth with the word 'eternity' is one instance.  From what I've put in bold above, 'frequency' appears to be another.

When you ask for proof that 'eternity' lasts 'forever'...well, that's kind of like asking for proof that 'red' is 'red', or asking for proof that 'yes' is the opposite of 'no'.  The word 'eternity' denotes something that lasts 'forever'.  You can argue whether something can or cannot last forever, or for eternity, but it is silly to ask for proof that 'eternity' lasts 'forever'.

I cannot understand the phrase "frequency of the meaning of god".  That is, that arrangement of symbols does not convey, express, or communicate an idea or concept that is coherent.  Colorless green ideas sleep furiously and all that jazz.  Perhaps clarification on what you mean by 'frequency', or 'meaning', or 'god' would help.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: G-Roll on January 13, 2014, 01:42:40 PM
That is of course if you accept the definition of God as eternal thus making you a believer that it exists because it is in the dictionary resulting in circular argument leading to your defeat.  {all relative to yourself and those who believe in the dictionary of course}. Maybe this believing an trusting and having faith in the dictionary is a problem for certain human beings. Perhaps the vocabulary is not completed for them to fully understand the frequency of the meaning of the God. Peace

Haha. I like this guy he is silly.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Ivellios on January 13, 2014, 01:45:49 PM
Perhaps the vocabulary is not completed for them to fully understand the frequency of the meaning of the God. Peace.
Jesuis, you are correct in saying that vocabulary - words - do not affect reality, but are merely tools to help us communicate in our way to describe reality.

The problem, however, is that you don't seem to be making an attempt to establish common ground on what words mean.  I think the back-and-forth with the word 'eternity' is one instance.  From what I've put in bold above, 'frequency' appears to be another.

When you ask for proof that 'eternity' lasts 'forever'...well, that's kind of like asking for proof that 'red' is 'red', or asking for proof that 'yes' is the opposite of 'no'.  The word 'eternity' denotes something that lasts 'forever'.  You can argue whether something can or cannot last forever, or for eternity, but it is silly to ask for proof that 'eternity' lasts 'forever'.

I cannot understand the phrase "frequency of the meaning of god".  That is, that arrangement of symbols does not convey, express, or communicate an idea or concept that is coherent.  Colorless green ideas sleep furiously and all that jazz.  Perhaps clarification on what you mean by 'frequency', or 'meaning', or 'god' would help.

He's probably watched one too many Star Trek: TNG episodes and how a different 'frequency' fixed everything.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: xyzzy on January 13, 2014, 01:46:14 PM
or this...
On April 7, 2009, the Department of Homeland Security issued a controversial report on "rightwing
extremism." Titled Rightwing Extremism : Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in
Radicalization and Recruitment , its warning seems to be aimed at creating a special class of
Americans: those who question and resist the rapid shift to socialism. These targeted groups (who
still appreciate our Constitution and its promised human rights) must now be vilified as "the enemy
of the people" -- a dangerous threat to peace and unity. According to this report,
http://www.crossroad.to/News/homeland.htm

For those who say things about Jihad envy or some garbage like that. I challenge you to find talk like this any where about muslims. This is happening and you are in it.

Do you really want to get into a discussion of how fucking stupid this is?  Let me guess, you're all about Benghazi, Obama being a Muslim/Kenyan, and health care being the new slavery.  Muslims are not a danger to this country right now, its people like you.   

Let's not let harbinger deflect us from the fact that the position he's defending was this one:

This is an answer. An individual answer. A stand. I can respect that much. I guess it pleases you to know for some odd reason Homeland security named the fundamental Christian public enemy #1 in America. I think 2013.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 13, 2014, 01:46:33 PM
All it takes is for you to have faith in it and to believe in it, but the dictionary is not a person of truth nor a holder of wisdom yet you trust it - maybe out of the fear or the insecurity that if it be wrong you lose all -- it weilds such power over you for you to have placed it in such an important role in your existence. It is my understanding that it is simply a collection of thoughts an ideas pertaining to meanings which are forever evolving with time.

Yet another attempt to avoid the obvious and create enough of a gap for your rjhsl;ehjzxdthmxdbmbnlmk  to fit in. I know the old fashioned term is "god" but  "rjhsl;ehjzxdthmxdbmbnlmk " just evolved in language in the last 90 seconds.

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: jdawg70 on January 13, 2014, 01:48:31 PM
Yet another attempt to avoid the obvious and create enough of a gap for your rjhsl;ehjzxdthmxdbmbnlmk  to fit in. I know the old fashioned term is "god" but  "rjhsl;ehjzxdthmxdbmbnlmk " just evolved in language in the last 90 seconds.

A semi-colon?  You're a f**king heretic!  BURN THE WITCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 13, 2014, 01:57:03 PM
You just proved how you do not understand and that was my point.
Lets say then you accept the word Eternity because it is in the dictionary and it means Eternal. So is the word God.  It is a word like Eternity meaning it is eternal and you accept that by your faith that the dictionary(unknown author) is correct. According to you. The word is be definition makes it so. Not much to conclude apart from my original statement. Some just o not understand the answers given.

wow, just wow.

If you cannot trust the dictionary, what can you trust? But because the dictionary is true, the bible is true? Or, are you
That is of course if you accept the definition of God as eternal thus making you a believer that it exists because it is in the dictionary resulting in circular argument leading to your defeat. 


Dragon:

1. A mythical monster traditionally represented as a gigantic reptile having a lion's claws, the tail of a serpent, wings, and a scaly skin.


If I accept the definition as correct, by your manner of reasoning, Dragons must exist.

Oni

Oni (?) are a kind of y?kai from Japanese folklore, variously translated as demons, devils, ogres or trolls. They are popular characters in Japanese art, literature and theatre.[1]

Depictions of oni vary widely but usually portray them as hideous, gigantic ogre-like creatures with sharp claws, wild hair, and two long horns growing from their heads.[2] They are humanoid for the most part, but occasionally, they are shown with unnatural features such as odd numbers of eyes or extra fingers and toes.[3] Their skin may be any number of colors, but red and blue are particularly common.[4][5]

They are often depicted wearing tiger-skin loincloths and carrying iron clubs, called kanab? (??). This image leads to the expression "oni with an iron club" (????, oni-ni-kanab?), that is, to be invincible or undefeatable. It can also be used in the sense of "strong beyond strong", or having one's natural quality enhanced or supplemented by the use of some tool.[6][7]

If I accept the definition as correct, by your manner of reasoning, Oni must exist.


Harpy

In Greek mythology, a harpy (Greek: ??????, harpyia, pronounced [hárpuja]; Latin: harpeia) was one of the winged spirits best known for constantly stealing all food from Phineus. The literal meaning of the word seems to be "that which snatches" as it comes from the Greek word harpazein (????????), which means "to snatch".

A harpy was the mother of the horses of Achilles sired by the West Wind Zephyros .[1]

Hesiod[2] calls them two "lovely-haired" creatures, and pottery art depicting the harpies featured beautiful women with wings. Harpies as ugly winged bird-women, e.g. in Aeschylus' The Eumenides (line 50) are a late development, due to a confusion with the Sirens. Roman and Byzantine writers detailed their ugliness.[3]



If I accept the definition as correct, by your manner of reasoning, Harpies must exist.

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: median on January 13, 2014, 02:26:16 PM
I have never backed down from a question. I even solved the problem of evil and one of the posters on here still has the quote in his signature. That tells me atheists ignore the answers we give.


NOPE! YOU-DID-NOT "solve" the problem of evil. YOU CLAIMED THAT YOU SOLVED IT. But SAYING you solved it doesn't mean you did. Sorry. FAIL.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Ivellios on January 13, 2014, 02:29:00 PM
You said "If you cannot trust the dictionary what can you trust".
All it takes is for you to have faith in it and to believe in it, but the dictionary is not a person of truth nor a holder of wisdom yet you trust it

It is a reference book. A tool used to help communication by establishing meanings to words. Without common meanings for words, we would never have left the caves. I 'trust' it as a means to communicate, just as much as I trust a pencil, paper and my keyboard. I'm not going to glean any wisdom from them, but I 'trust' or have 'faith' that by using them, I can communicate with others.

- maybe out of the fear or the insecurity that if it be wrong you lose all -- it weilds such power over you for you to have placed it in such an important role in your existence.

nonsensical babbling. Oooha booga whikiki foolic schiknop! Without a common reference point, what you say is as meaningless as this.

It is my understanding that it is simply a collection of thoughts an ideas pertaining to meanings which are forever evolving with time. Not to be taken as dogmatic but as a tool. Its meanings come and go depending on the day and popular usage by us humans who use words to express an inner working of their minds consciousness and thus by definition gives rise to more meaningless expressions which is not eternally embedded in stone but flexible with time.

Considering I already stated in a previous post that it was simply a reference book, a tool for communication...  &)

It would be unwise for us to hold it up as an authority in eternity especially when trying to clarify something so all conscious and so eternal as God - don't you think?

As a contemporary tool for using language as a medium to communicate to each other, it only holds as much 'authority' as long as the people conversing agree on the definitions. Considering you've made up a different meaning for 'eternity' than the established one that most of us are using, I have no idea what you're saying, and it is therefore maningless. It has nothing with me being stupid, but you in your ifivite wisdoe deciping to be misindersdood pon purposk. As for the definition of eternal that I am aware of, there is nothing eternal, endless, timeless. Everything will end. It may take 50 billion years, but that is still nothing compared to 'eternity.'   

That is of course if you accept the definition of God as eternal thus making you a believer that it exists because it is in the dictionary resulting in circular argument leading to your defeat.

Will you stop projecting? I accept that there is a definition of 'eternal'. As a real word it has a meaning. Something being eternal, is another matter entirely.

{all relative to yourself and those who believe in the dictionary of course}.  Maybe this believing an trusting and having faith in the dictionary is a problem for certain human beings.

 &)

Perhaps the vocabulary is not completed for them to fully understand the frequency of the meaning of the God. Peace.

Watched too many Star Trek: TNG episodes? Just need to '"Change the frquencies?" Changing said frequencies makes all these things better: Communication[1], Shields[2], Phasors[3], main deflector dish[4], torpedoes, missiles and other ballistic weapons[5], swords, knives and other melee weapons[6].

As A&A asked for earlier. If you would like to be taken seriously instead of someone dismissing what you say with as little effort as a handwave. Please provide some proof.
 1. false, 103.7 is no better than 101.1 and at a different frequency 101.1 listeners cannot hear what's going on at 103.7, and vice-versa)
 2. I had always though of shields as a barrier, not pulsating like a flourescent light. Something that got more powerful the longer power was put into it. Which is why it takes time to 'build,' but if it's going to full to 0 and back over a hundred of times a second, why does it take so long to build?
 3. as light based weapon, it works by frequency, but change the frequency, you change the color.
 4. to communicate, already stated. to deflect, already stated
 5. wtf? seriously!? ooh, the bullet bouce off that tank! we've just gotta change it's frequency!....  &)
 6.  :o  :?  :-\  &)  :'(  to Damn I can't believe I watched something so stupid  :-[
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Ivellios on January 13, 2014, 02:42:58 PM
I have never backed down from a question. I even solved the problem of evil and one of the posters on here still has the quote in his signature. That tells me atheists ignore the answers we give.


NOPE! YOU-DID-NOT "solve" the problem of evil. YOU CLAIMED THAT YOU SOLVED IT. But SAYING you solved it doesn't mean you did. Sorry. FAIL.

The lurkers might not have know, but some of us, when he said that, knew the truth. Though I can only speak for myself, but it is highly probable. Considering my reaction was like this:  :? .
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 02:47:57 PM
Perhaps the vocabulary is not completed for them to fully understand the frequency of the meaning of the God. Peace.
Jesuis, you are correct in saying that vocabulary - words - do not affect reality, but are merely tools to help us communicate in our way to describe reality.

The problem, however, is that you don't seem to be making an attempt to establish common ground on what words mean.  I think the back-and-forth with the word 'eternity' is one instance.  From what I've put in bold above, 'frequency' appears to be another.

When you ask for proof that 'eternity' lasts 'forever'...well, that's kind of like asking for proof that 'red' is 'red', or asking for proof that 'yes' is the opposite of 'no'.  The word 'eternity' denotes something that lasts 'forever'.  You can argue whether something can or cannot last forever, or for eternity, but it is silly to ask for proof that 'eternity' lasts 'forever'.

I cannot understand the phrase "frequency of the meaning of god".  That is, that arrangement of symbols does not convey, express, or communicate an idea or concept that is coherent.  Colorless green ideas sleep furiously and all that jazz.  Perhaps clarification on what you mean by 'frequency', or 'meaning', or 'god' would help.
Indeed.
God remains unexplained depending on who we are of course - and it is silly that some can understand immediately and others cannot. Red is Red like God is God.  But such is the way of the world we live in, a world of dualtiy an opposites and laws - but that does not mean God is non existent. Say for example Jesus without doubt knew God but his desciples were not the holders of that wisdom.
A Painter only needs to paint his picture - the observer looking at it tries to explain it but it remains the work of the painter and not anyone else.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Ivellios on January 13, 2014, 02:54:42 PM
The only one "accepting that there is such a thing as a truely good god" is you. ie Christians who assert they follow a Perfect, All-Knowing, All-Loving, All-Powerful good god. That loves us so much, and wants a relationship with us, but we have to do all the work, and talking to him is like talking to a brick wall. An All-knowing God would see the results, rather know beforehand, of which methods of communication would work, and which ones would not. If God was all-knowing, and All-loving and good, then he'd find a way that you would understand the first time, for all time. If there is a miscommunication or a misunderstanding then it is the one who can look into one's kokoro[1] and should know the best way to communicate to us.
 1. japanese: heart, mind, soul. all 3 for the price of 1. ~.^ since 'soul' is indistinguishable from one's mind
Are you positive about all of this? One would say there are a lot of unknowns and broad sweeping statemets in this post.

Considering I used to be a Christian, I've got the good 'ol christian sales pitch, except for the part about heaven and hell. Left out the, "You're a worthless piece of trash that because God loves you, made Him kill himself, so you could go to heaven!" but kept in the rest of what being a christian was like, and simply stated that someone with not precognition but pregnostiction would know better.

So, yes. I am positive and I do not see any "unknowns." Thank you very much. Of course, I use broad sweeping statements. I could never get the knack of turning a paragraph into 20,000 words. My English teachers always threw fits whenever I turned in my essays.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: SevenPatch on January 13, 2014, 02:55:50 PM
As I said the "vocabulary" does not clearly align the mentality to the "frequency" of the question to be discussed, but the OP has already presumed "God exists" without properly understanding the meaning or vibration of this word and as such does not understand the answers given relative to the wisdom of such a word. Note this is not a dodge. I am clearly either not understanding your need or lack off. In other words our mental frequencies are not being aligned for if it was we would have no discrepancies.

Amazing, people think differently, i already knew that.

Now can you answer the question directly?
Question: Why is it hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Answer: They are answering "directly" but your lack of understanding seems to be going unnoticed. It is not the answering that is not taking place it is the lack of understanding that is cyclic. It is for you to tell me what word you do not understand or my responses are limited.

Jesuis,

What is your basis for understanding?

Merriam-Webster defines the word “understand” as follows:  to know the meaning of (something, such as the words that someone is saying or a language), to know how (something) works or happens, to know how (someone) thinks, feels or behaves.

How do you know then that the receiver of the answer doesn’t understand the answer?

It can’t be simple agreement.  If I agree with your answer, that doesn’t mean I understand it.  It is also true that if I disagree with your answer, that doesn’t mean I lack understanding.

Additionally the giver of the answer must understand the question, correct?  Perhaps the receiver of the answer doesn’t believe that the giver of the answer understood the question.  If the giver of the answer doesn’t understand the question then perhaps the theist lack of understanding is going unnoticed by the theist.

In my opinion, I think the most direct answer to a direct question would be one that provides the best explanation.  I don’t think your answer provides the best explanation and therefore is not a direct answer.

A possible direct answer to the direct question (Why is it hard for believers to answer a direct question?) is that the believer thinks they know something when they don’t actually know.   My answer to the question provides a good explanation.  Currently it explains why it is hard for you Jesuis to give a direct answer to the direct question, which is because you think you know something when you don’t actually know.  You think you know that the receiver of the answer doesn’t understand the answer when in fact you don’t know if the receiver understands or not.

Additionally, since the believer doesn’t actually know what they think they know they will avoid providing a direct answer to a direct question.  It is much easier to answer directly when you don’t pretend to know something.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 02:57:36 PM
You just proved how you do not understand and that was my point.
Lets say then you accept the word Eternity because it is in the dictionary and it means Eternal. So is the word God.  It is a word like Eternity meaning it is eternal and you accept that by your faith that the dictionary(unknown author) is correct. According to you. The word is be definition makes it so. Not much to conclude apart from my original statement. Some just o not understand the answers given.

wow, just wow.

If you cannot trust the dictionary, what can you trust? But because the dictionary is true, the bible is true? Or, are you
That is of course if you accept the definition of God as eternal thus making you a believer that it exists because it is in the dictionary resulting in circular argument leading to your defeat. 


Dragon:

1. A mythical monster traditionally represented as a gigantic reptile having a lion's claws, the tail of a serpent, wings, and a scaly skin.

If I accept the definition as correct, by your manner of reasoning, Dragons must exist.

Oni

Oni (?) are a kind of y?kai from Japanese folklore, variously translated as demons, devils, ogres or trolls. They are popular characters in Japanese art, literature and theatre.[1]

Depictions of oni vary widely but usually portray them as hideous, gigantic ogre-like creatures with sharp claws, wild hair, and two long horns growing from their heads.[2] They are humanoid for the most part, but occasionally, they are shown with unnatural features such as odd numbers of eyes or extra fingers and toes.[3] Their skin may be any number of colors, but red and blue are particularly common.[4][5]

They are often depicted wearing tiger-skin loincloths and carrying iron clubs, called kanab? (??). This image leads to the expression "oni with an iron club" (????, oni-ni-kanab?), that is, to be invincible or undefeatable. It can also be used in the sense of "strong beyond strong", or having one's natural quality enhanced or supplemented by the use of some tool.[6][7]

If I accept the definition as correct, by your manner of reasoning, Oni must exist.


Harpy

In Greek mythology, a harpy (Greek: ??????, harpyia, pronounced [hárpuja]; Latin: harpeia) was one of the winged spirits best known for constantly stealing all food from Phineus. The literal meaning of the word seems to be "that which snatches" as it comes from the Greek word harpazein (????????), which means "to snatch".

A harpy was the mother of the horses of Achilles sired by the West Wind Zephyros .[1]

Hesiod[2] calls them two "lovely-haired" creatures, and pottery art depicting the harpies featured beautiful women with wings. Harpies as ugly winged bird-women, e.g. in Aeschylus' The Eumenides (line 50) are a late development, due to a confusion with the Sirens. Roman and Byzantine writers detailed their ugliness.[3]



If I accept the definition as correct, by your manner of reasoning, Harpies must exist.
No one is asking you to accept anything exists especially that of folk lore.
You are the one saying "If you cannot trust the dictionary what can you trust" I am saying if you are going to use the dictionary as truth and as evidence yoou are going to fail. you would have to be more flexiable by your own reasoning not mine. you are only proving my point.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 03:03:09 PM
The only one "accepting that there is such a thing as a truely good god" is you. ie Christians who assert they follow a Perfect, All-Knowing, All-Loving, All-Powerful good god. That loves us so much, and wants a relationship with us, but we have to do all the work, and talking to him is like talking to a brick wall. An All-knowing God would see the results, rather know beforehand, of which methods of communication would work, and which ones would not. If God was all-knowing, and All-loving and good, then he'd find a way that you would understand the first time, for all time. If there is a miscommunication or a misunderstanding then it is the one who can look into one's kokoro[1] and should know the best way to communicate to us.
 1. japanese: heart, mind, soul. all 3 for the price of 1. ~.^ since 'soul' is indistinguishable from one's mind
Are you positive about all of this? One would say there are a lot of unknowns and broad sweeping statemets in this post.

Considering I used to be a Christian, I've got the good 'ol christian sales pitch, except for the part about heaven and hell. Left out the, "You're a worthless piece of trash that because God loves you, made Him kill himself, so you could go to heaven!" but kept in the rest of what being a christian was like, and simply stated that someone with not precognition but pregnostiction would know better.

So, yes. I am positive and I do not see any "unknowns." Thank you very much. Of course, I use broad sweeping statements. I could never get the knack of turning a paragraph into 20,000 words. My English teachers always threw fits whenever I turned in my essays.
Well lets not anatagonise you before you blow up. lets leave it like that until our frequencies match. give it time to sink in.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Ataraxia on January 13, 2014, 03:11:53 PM
So our "new" resident theist says "frequencies" and BAM! there's god? WTF is this, some new buzzword?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Ivellios on January 13, 2014, 03:13:15 PM
No one is asking you to accept anything exists especially that of folk lore.
You are the one saying "If you cannot trust the dictionary what can you trust" I am saying if you are going to use the dictionary as truth and as evidence yoou are going to fail. you would have to be more flexiable by your own reasoning not mine. you are only proving my point.

Nope, that wasn't him but me. If only you looked thru the quote history, you'd have seen that. I said it as a joke, but I guess having humor doesn't get thru to someone of your... ano... "frequency?"  &)

I said it since you believe in a book about unicorns, leviathans, flat Earth, zombies, witches with broomsticks well minus the broomsticks, astrologers, fortunetellers, someone that raises from the dead and flies[1], talking snakes and donkeys, many many many other things, gives credence to it, inerrant or somesuch, and expect use to take your word for it and believe it, and when asked why you give us that, "You wouldn't understand if I told you, anyways."

Too bad there isn't a werewolf in there, she could have included it in the 'Twilight' saga.
 1. I'm guessing that makes him a vampire, <checks> drinks blood, yep.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Ivellios on January 13, 2014, 03:15:41 PM
So our "new" resident theist says "frequencies" and BAM! there's god? WTF is this, some new buzzword?

Dunno, won't prove it. Expects us to take him at his word. Says we wouldn't understand it anyways.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: jdawg70 on January 13, 2014, 03:19:43 PM
Jesuis, you are correct in saying that vocabulary - words - do not affect reality, but are merely tools to help us communicate in our way to describe reality.

The problem, however, is that you don't seem to be making an attempt to establish common ground on what words mean.  I think the back-and-forth with the word 'eternity' is one instance.  From what I've put in bold above, 'frequency' appears to be another.

When you ask for proof that 'eternity' lasts 'forever'...well, that's kind of like asking for proof that 'red' is 'red', or asking for proof that 'yes' is the opposite of 'no'.  The word 'eternity' denotes something that lasts 'forever'.  You can argue whether something can or cannot last forever, or for eternity, but it is silly to ask for proof that 'eternity' lasts 'forever'.

I cannot understand the phrase "frequency of the meaning of god".  That is, that arrangement of symbols does not convey, express, or communicate an idea or concept that is coherent.  Colorless green ideas sleep furiously and all that jazz.  Perhaps clarification on what you mean by 'frequency', or 'meaning', or 'god' would help.
Indeed.
I'm...unconvinced that you understood my post.  It's OK; I'm not an ideal communicator.

Quote
God remains unexplained depending on who we are of course - and it is silly that some can understand immediately and others cannot. Red is Red like God is God.  But such is the way of the world we live in, a world of dualtiy an opposites and laws - but that does not mean God is non existent. Say for example Jesus without doubt knew God but his desciples were not the holders of that wisdom.
Flobart remains unexplained depending on who we are of course - and it is silly that some can understand immediately and others cannot.  Red is Red like Flobart is Flobart.  But such is the way of the world we live in, a world of duality and opposites and laws[1] - but that does not mean Flobart is non-existent.

Quote
A Painter only needs to paint his picture - the observer looking at it tries to explain it but it remains the work of the painter and not anyone else.
You need to establish the existence of the picture.  It would be ridiculous to try to explain it prior to that.
You need to establish the existence of the painter.  It would be ridiculous to try to explain the painter's intent prior to that.
 1. What?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 13, 2014, 03:27:05 PM
No one is asking you to accept anything exists especially that of folk lore.


Quote
if you accept the definition of God as eternal thus making you a believer that it exists because it is in the dictionary 


What's wrong with these two quotes of yours?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: xyzzy on January 13, 2014, 04:27:17 PM
So our "new" resident theist says "frequencies" and BAM! there's god? WTF is this, some new buzzword?

Dunno, won't prove it. Expects us to take him at his word. Says we wouldn't understand it anyways.

Perhaps you meant to say: "Dunno, won't prove it. Frequently expects us to take him at his word. Frequently says we wouldn't understand it anyways".

See, now it's all deep and meaningful, yet also beyond the understanding of us poor heathens.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 04:28:03 PM

Jesuis,

What is your basis for understanding?
Intellect - but do we know what that is or are some of us believing it to be something that it might not be as written in an evolving dictionary?

Merriam-Webster defines the word “understand” as follows:  to know the meaning of (something, such as the words that someone is saying or a language), to know how (something) works or happens, to know how (someone) thinks, feels or behaves.
But do we know that meaning to be true and can we accept websters team of people(experts) who mind you can change the meaning when they like thus rendering such an account to be untrue at a later date. Can we accept this meaning as a true statement of fact? Why would you when historically they do not stand the test of time.

How do you know then that the receiver of the answer doesn’t understand the answer?
Doubt.
When one person resonates at the same frequency as the other he knows what he is experiencing and therefore there is no doubt, No words need be said. When there is uncertainty and insecurity there is doubt.

It can’t be simple agreement.  If I agree with your answer, that doesn't mean I understand it.
True! There are many similar students in any class - they agree on what is being said and taught but have not clue what they are agreeing too. Lets take the historical figure Jesus for instance - he may have spoken of God his father, our father, but who understood what he was talking about?

It is also true that if I disagree with your answer, that doesn't mean I lack understanding.
Of course not. But if is a matter of frequency alignment and brain waves. I might repeat what I said and you might still do not understand -- what then does that say about your understanding. How many students are A+ or geniuses in any given class?

Additionally the giver of the answer must understand the question, correct?  Perhaps the receiver of the answer doesn't believe that the giver of the answer understood the question.  If the giver of the answer doesn't understand the question then perhaps the theist lack of understanding is going unnoticed by the theist.
you have jumped ahead to input "theist" but I guess you want to get to this point quick. Take your time grass hopper it is not a race. If we are simply trying to match resonating frequencies to create peace then their is harmony being sought by two parties - if we are not trying to match the frequencies it is only going to create isharmony. It is all about the will in the individuals.(of course that would require to accept there is such a thing).

In my opinion, I think the most direct answer to a direct question would be one that provides the best explanation.  I don't think your answer provides the best explanation and therefore is not a direct answer.
Truth is not based on what you think it is.  - Truth is the unchanging expression frequency resonating at a fixed state - no one can change that or the definition itself would be wrong. God would be the truth but the definition or words could be wrong until we get the wording right or the understanding right.

A possible direct answer to the direct question (Why is it hard for believers to answer a direct question?) is that the believer thinks they know something when they don't actually know.   My answer to the question provides a good explanation.  Currently it explains why it is hard for you Jesus to give a direct answer to the direct question, which is because you think you know something when you don't actually know.  You think you know that the receiver of the answer doesn't understand the answer when in fact you don't know if the receiver understands or not.
That works both ways.

Additionally, since the believer doesn't actually know what they think they know they will avoid providing a direct answer to a direct question.  It is much easier to answer directly when you don't pretend to know something.
You want to make a point but it is not quite right. Hense my response. The historical figure and reference "Jesus" did not say he thinks there is a God (And we can find many such historical figures for the debate) but, he said he knows God who is his/our father. Wether you understand this point for us to progress would make all the difference in the mental frequencies and the will to progree will be allowed between us and the peaceful progression of the intellect starts. But also the pretence is there that you might be willing to hold on too that you know something as if it is your life line to some sort of security. However the facts of misrepresentation and untruths do not go unnoticed.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 04:30:47 PM
No one is asking you to accept anything exists especially that of folk lore.


Quote
if you accept the definition of God as eternal thus making you a believer that it exists because it is in the dictionary 


What's wrong with these two quotes of yours?
nothing is wrong with it. They are queries to find your truth so we can build upon it slowly.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 13, 2014, 04:32:58 PM
So our "new" resident theist says "frequencies" and BAM! there's god? WTF is this, some new buzzword?

Dunno, won't prove it. Expects us to take him at his word. Says we wouldn't understand it anyways.

Perhaps you meant to say: "Dunno, won't prove it. Frequently expects us to take him at his word. Frequently says we wouldn't understand it anyways".

See, now it's all deep and meaningful, yet also beyond the understanding of us poor heathens.

Funny how the term 'frequency' is used here quite similarly to how store front Mediums use the term "Psychic Vibrations"

"You cannot see the spirits but I can, I have trained myself to pick up on the pychic vibrations of the spirit world. You who not believe cannot understand their subtle ways."

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 13, 2014, 04:34:00 PM
No one is asking you to accept anything exists especially that of folk lore.


Quote
if you accept the definition of God as eternal thus making you a believer that it exists because it is in the dictionary 


What's wrong with these two quotes of yours?
nothing is wrong with it. They are queries to find your truth so we can build upon it slowly.

So you are incapable of understanding these are mutually exclusive statements?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 04:35:10 PM
Jesuis, you are correct in saying that vocabulary - words - do not affect reality, but are merely tools to help us communicate in our way to describe reality.

The problem, however, is that you don't seem to be making an attempt to establish common ground on what words mean.  I think the back-and-forth with the word 'eternity' is one instance.  From what I've put in bold above, 'frequency' appears to be another.

When you ask for proof that 'eternity' lasts 'forever'...well, that's kind of like asking for proof that 'red' is 'red', or asking for proof that 'yes' is the opposite of 'no'.  The word 'eternity' denotes something that lasts 'forever'.  You can argue whether something can or cannot last forever, or for eternity, but it is silly to ask for proof that 'eternity' lasts 'forever'.

I cannot understand the phrase "frequency of the meaning of god".  That is, that arrangement of symbols does not convey, express, or communicate an idea or concept that is coherent.  Colorless green ideas sleep furiously and all that jazz.  Perhaps clarification on what you mean by 'frequency', or 'meaning', or 'god' would help.
Indeed.
I'm...unconvinced that you understood my post.  It's OK; I'm not an ideal communicator.

Quote
God remains unexplained depending on who we are of course - and it is silly that some can understand immediately and others cannot. Red is Red like God is God.  But such is the way of the world we live in, a world of dualtiy an opposites and laws - but that does not mean God is non existent. Say for example Jesus without doubt knew God but his desciples were not the holders of that wisdom.
Flobart remains unexplained depending on who we are of course - and it is silly that some can understand immediately and others cannot.  Red is Red like Flobart is Flobart.  But such is the way of the world we live in, a world of duality and opposites and laws[1] - but that does not mean Flobart is non-existent.

Quote
A Painter only needs to paint his picture - the observer looking at it tries to explain it but it remains the work of the painter and not anyone else.
You need to establish the existence of the picture.  It would be ridiculous to try to explain it prior to that.
You need to establish the existence of the painter.  It would be ridiculous to try to explain the painter's intent prior to that.
 1. What?
I doubt there is much further discussion if you cannot accept that the painter painted the picture and the describer is trying to describe it.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 04:39:12 PM
No one is asking you to accept anything exists especially that of folk lore.


Quote
if you accept the definition of God as eternal thus making you a believer that it exists because it is in the dictionary 


What's wrong with these two quotes of yours?
nothing is wrong with it. They are queries to find your truth so we can build upon it slowly.

So you are incapable of understanding these are mutually exclusive statements?
As I am incapable of understanding your belief and faith in a Websters dictionary for facts.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Graybeard on January 13, 2014, 04:41:05 PM

Jesuis,

What is your basis for understanding?
Intellect - but do we know what that is or are some of us believing it to be something that it might not be as written in an evolving dictionary?
I have to say that your intellect has failed you. Were we to be uncertain as to the meaning of words, all would be gibberish. You seem to reject a dictionary that does no more than record the meaning of words (not dictate the meaning of them). Logically, then, you do not expect anything you write to be understood. Am I correct?

Let me take you on journey to your childhood:

Humpty Dumpty in Through The Looking Glass:-

"'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.'

Alice was too much puzzled to say anything; so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. 'They've a temper, some of them — particularly verbs: they're the proudest — adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs — however, I can manage the whole lot of them! Impenetrability! That's what I say!'

Now... are you egg-shaped?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Star Stuff on January 13, 2014, 04:41:55 PM
I doubt there is much further discussion if you cannot accept that the painter painted the picture and the describer is trying to describe it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8nYTJf62sE
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 13, 2014, 04:52:25 PM
The picture painted itself. We're trying to describe it. Accurately. Or at least as accurately as humans can describe things.

Fictions like the bible just hold people back.

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: jdawg70 on January 13, 2014, 04:58:46 PM
I doubt there is much further discussion if you cannot accept that the painter painted the picture and the describer is trying to describe it.
Well, there is a discussion point - does the painter exist?

Acceptance of the claim 'the painter exists' just because you say so would be intellectually dishonest.  Expecting that others accept your claim just because you say so would be hubris.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 13, 2014, 05:04:44 PM
No one is asking you to accept anything exists especially that of folk lore.


Quote
if you accept the definition of God as eternal thus making you a believer that it exists because it is in the dictionary 


What's wrong with these two quotes of yours?
nothing is wrong with it. They are queries to find your truth so we can build upon it slowly.

So you are incapable of understanding these are mutually exclusive statements?
As I am incapable of understanding your belief and faith in a Websters dictionary for facts.

I didn't say anything as such. Why do you have a belief that I have "faith' in a Webster dictionary for facts, when, as a matter of fact, I made no such claim?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Ivellios on January 13, 2014, 05:08:55 PM
He's afraid he might actually learn something if he looks up 'mutually exclusive.' He's probably only read the bible his entire life.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: jdawg70 on January 13, 2014, 05:10:15 PM
I didn't say anything as such. Why do you have a belief that I have "faith' in a Webster dictionary for facts, when, as a matter of fact, I made no such claim?
Meh, don't be too hard on him.  He's just using the words 'as', 'I', 'am', 'incapable', 'of', 'understanding', 'your', 'belief', 'and', 'faith', 'in', 'a', 'dictionary', 'for', and 'fact' in a different way then you understand them to mean.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Ataraxia on January 13, 2014, 05:15:37 PM
I didn't say anything as such. Why do you have a belief that I have "faith' in a Webster dictionary for facts, when, as a matter of fact, I made no such claim?
Meh, don't be too hard on him.  He's just using the words 'as', 'I', 'am', 'incapable', 'of', 'understanding', 'your', 'belief', 'and', 'faith', 'in', 'a', 'dictionary', 'for', and 'fact' in a different way then you understand them to mean.

Surely you mean frequency?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 05:22:21 PM

Jesuis,

What is your basis for understanding?
Intellect - but do we know what that is or are some of us believing it to be something that it might not be as written in an evolving dictionary?
I have to say that your intellect has failed you. Were we to be uncertain as to the meaning of words, all would be gibberish. You seem to reject a dictionary that does no more than record the meaning of words (not dictate the meaning of them). Logically, then, you do not expect anything you write to be understood. Am I correct?

Let me take you on journey to your childhood:

Humpty Dumpty in Through The Looking Glass:-

"'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.'

Alice was too much puzzled to say anything; so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. 'They've a temper, some of them — particularly verbs: they're the proudest — adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs — however, I can manage the whole lot of them! Impenetrability! That's what I say!'

Now... are you egg-shaped?
I have not rejected the dictionary - I just do not put all my faith in it as you do. for instance the theist and the word atheist I may chose to redefine. But you might choose to insist that it is what it is. There where can have some claification will not not be allowed because I want the words to mean something and you do not. My aim would be to get you to start building upon what is real rather than on what is not. For instance "God" is not what the dictionary says it what the historical figure Jesus Nanak Mahavira etc knows it to be.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 05:33:09 PM
I doubt there is much further discussion if you cannot accept that the painter painted the picture and the describer is trying to describe it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8nYTJf62sE

Nice video.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: xyzzy on January 13, 2014, 05:35:24 PM
Now... are you egg-shaped?

I have not rejected the dictionary - I just do not put all my faith in it as you do. for instance the theist and the word atheist I may chose to redefine. But you might choose to insist that it is what it is. There where can have some claification will not not be allowed because I want the words to mean something and you do not. My aim would be to get you to start building upon what is real rather than on what is not. For instance "God" is not what the dictionary says it what the historical figure Jesus Nanak Mahavira etc knows it to be.

So it seems that the answer is yes.[1]

Also, I just wanted to acknowledge that I do recognise that you are avoiding answering my queries.
 1. Although his reply is delightfully ironic
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 05:40:27 PM
I doubt there is much further discussion if you cannot accept that the painter painted the picture and the describer is trying to describe it.
Well, there is a discussion point - does the painter exist?

Acceptance of the claim 'the painter exists' just because you say so would be intellectually dishonest.  Expecting that others accept your claim just because you say so would be hubris.
I doubt the painter is trying to get anyone to accept that he has painted the picture. The picture is being described by one's who knows the picture was painted and they seem keen to get this message over. As I said Jesus Nanak Mahavira made no qualms about the painter. Lets call these guys (who know the painter) the true theists thus making the rest of us atheists (ones who do not know). For discussion or debate obviously if you can adjust you dictionary to create some sort of peace.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: OldChurchGuy on January 13, 2014, 05:49:26 PM
I doubt there is much further discussion if you cannot accept that the painter painted the picture and the describer is trying to describe it.
Well, there is a discussion point - does the painter exist?

Acceptance of the claim 'the painter exists' just because you say so would be intellectually dishonest.  Expecting that others accept your claim just because you say so would be hubris.
I doubt the painter is trying to get anyone to accept that he has painted the picture. The picture is being described by one's who knows the picture was painted and they seem keen to get this message over. As I said Jesus Nanak Mahavira made no qualms about the painter. Lets call these guys (who know the painter) the true theists thus making the rest of us atheists (ones who do not know). For discussion or debate obviously if you can adjust you dictionary to create some sort of peace.

Is Jesus Nanak Mahavira the same as Jesus of Nazareth aka the Christ in the Christian New Testament writings? 

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: G-Roll on January 13, 2014, 05:55:53 PM
I think he is Sihk or Janis or something like that. Google Nanak Mahavira and you get those results.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Ivellios on January 13, 2014, 05:57:37 PM
Is Jesus Nanak Mahavira the same as Jesus of Nazareth aka the Christ in the Christian New Testament writings? 

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy

OCG, good luck with this guy. Maybe as a believer you can have more common ground and can actually converse with him. Says he's trying to reach us but he keeps redefining words, talking about being on a different frequency, and saying there's no point in explaining it, because it'll be like trying to explain to a 2 year old where babies come from.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 06:04:28 PM
I doubt there is much further discussion if you cannot accept that the painter painted the picture and the describer is trying to describe it.
Well, there is a discussion point - does the painter exist?

Acceptance of the claim 'the painter exists' just because you say so would be intellectually dishonest.  Expecting that others accept your claim just because you say so would be hubris.
I doubt the painter is trying to get anyone to accept that he has painted the picture. The picture is being described by one's who knows the picture was painted and they seem keen to get this message over. As I said Jesus Nanak Mahavira made no qualms about the painter. Lets call these guys (who know the painter) the true theists thus making the rest of us atheists (ones who do not know). For discussion or debate obviously if you can adjust you dictionary to create some sort of peace.

Is Jesus Nanak Mahavira the same as Jesus of Nazareth aka the Christ in the Christian New Testament writings? 

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy
Honestly? We have just lowered this discussion to a new all time low. Would it be prudent to say you should know the answer to this question and that you expect me to answer differently so that you can make a point in ridiculousness. Lets go with they were human beings of our historical writings in whose name religions have been formed that they were painting a picture of the god entity to the people that choose to believe them. Aka Frequency!
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: voodoo child on January 13, 2014, 06:06:44 PM
Boy oh boy weirdness comes from strange lands. The whiteman cometh, again and again, and we have no fence's to keep their crazy ideas away. Strange names Nanak, Mahavira.  Nanak sounds like a cousin. But I think we called him Nanook? Maybe that was the dogs name.  &)

 
http://snphilosophers2005.tripod.com/bipin.pdf          < good for some shits and giggles
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: OldChurchGuy on January 13, 2014, 06:09:48 PM
I doubt there is much further discussion if you cannot accept that the painter painted the picture and the describer is trying to describe it.
Well, there is a discussion point - does the painter exist?

Acceptance of the claim 'the painter exists' just because you say so would be intellectually dishonest.  Expecting that others accept your claim just because you say so would be hubris.
I doubt the painter is trying to get anyone to accept that he has painted the picture. The picture is being described by one's who knows the picture was painted and they seem keen to get this message over. As I said Jesus Nanak Mahavira made no qualms about the painter. Lets call these guys (who know the painter) the true theists thus making the rest of us atheists (ones who do not know). For discussion or debate obviously if you can adjust you dictionary to create some sort of peace.

Is Jesus Nanak Mahavira the same as Jesus of Nazareth aka the Christ in the Christian New Testament writings? 

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy
Honestly? We have just lowered this discussion to a new all time low. Would it be prudent to say you should know the answer to this question and that you expect me to answer differently so that you can make a point in ridiculousness. Lets go with they were human beings of our historical writings in whose name religions have been formed that they were painting a picture of the god entity to the people that choose to believe them. Aka Frequency!

I didn't realize asking questions would lead this discussion to a new all time low. 

I don't see how it would be prudent for you to say I should know the answer to this question and that I expect you to answer differently so I can make a point in ridiculousness.  If I knew the answer I would not have asked.

When you write "of our historical writings" whose writings are you referring to? 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 06:10:31 PM
I think he is Sihk or Janis or something like that. Google Nanak Mahavira and you get those results.
I can increase the list if you like -- but was trying to raise the bar not lower it. Moses - Judaism,  Jesus - Christianity, Mahavira - Jainism, Nanak - Sikhism, Krishna - Hinduism, Buddha - Buddhism. Just keeping real and frequency based drawing your attention to the ones who know relative to us who don't.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 13, 2014, 06:24:30 PM
I doubt there is much further discussion if you cannot accept that the painter painted the picture and the describer is trying to describe it.
Well, there is a discussion point - does the painter exist?

Acceptance of the claim 'the painter exists' just because you say so would be intellectually dishonest.  Expecting that others accept your claim just because you say so would be hubris.
I doubt the painter is trying to get anyone to accept that he has painted the picture. The picture is being described by one's who knows the picture was painted and they seem keen to get this message over. As I said Jesus Nanak Mahavira made no qualms about the painter. Lets call these guys (who know the painter) the true theists thus making the rest of us atheists (ones who do not know). For discussion or debate obviously if you can adjust your dictionary to create some sort of peace.

Is Jesus Nanak Mahavira the same as Jesus of Nazareth aka the Christ in the Christian New Testament writings? 

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy
Honestly? We have just lowered this discussion to a new all time low. Would it be prudent to say you should know the answer to this question and that you expect me to answer differently so that you can make a point in ridiculousness. Lets go with they were human beings of our historical writings in whose name religions have been formed that they were painting a picture of the god entity to the people that choose to believe them. Aka Frequency!

I didn't realize asking questions would lead this discussion to a new all time low. 

I don't see how it would be prudent for you to say I should know the answer to this question and that I expect you to answer differently so I can make a point in ridiculousness.  If I knew the answer I would not have asked.
Your question: Is Jesus Nanak Mahavira the same as Jesus of Nazareth aka the Christ in the Christian New Testament writings?
My response - was way above your pay grade. My fault. I realise now yoou have no clue about these people perhaps never heard of them. So what makes you "curious"and why "being the same"?

When you write "of our historical writings" whose writings are you referring to? 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Perhaps I said too much that could be making you very confused. "Our historical writings" meaning the people of the Earth - human beings perhaps who took the time and the effort to record things they have witnessed or heard that others can read read and make sense of? Will that work?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: OldChurchGuy on January 13, 2014, 06:42:06 PM
Quote
Honestly? We have just lowered this discussion to a new all time low. Would it be prudent to say you should know the answer to this question and that you expect me to answer differently so that you can make a point in ridiculousness. Lets go with they were human beings of our historical writings in whose name religions have been formed that they were painting a picture of the god entity to the people that choose to believe them. Aka Frequency!

I didn't realize asking questions would lead this discussion to a new all time low. 

I don't see how it would be prudent for you to say I should know the answer to this question and that I expect you to answer differently so I can make a point in ridiculousness.  If I knew the answer I would not have asked.[/quote]
Your question: Is Jesus Nanak Mahavira the same as Jesus of Nazareth aka the Christ in the Christian New Testament writings?
My response - was way above your pay grade. My fault. I realise now yoou have no clue about these people perhaps never heard of them. So what makes you "curious"and why "being the same"?

Quote

You are correct I have never heard of Jesus Nanak Mahavira.  Is this a single person or multiple people?  Thank you for taking my pay grade into account during this exchange. 

I am "curious" because I enjoy learning.  Life, for me, is a never ending learning experience. 

I am missing where I wrote "being the same".  Would you please point out that phrase so I can respond correctly?

[quote/]

When you write "of our historical writings" whose writings are you referring to? 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Perhaps I said too much that is making you very confused. "Our historical writings" meaning the people of the Earth - human being perhaps who took the time and the effort to record things they have heard that others can read read and make sense of? Will that work?

It might work.  I feel still in the dark which historical writings you refer to.  Would you mind creating a list of the writings so I may have a better idea which writings you mean? 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Ivellios on January 13, 2014, 06:53:59 PM

It might work.  I feel still in the dark which historical writings you refer to.  Would you mind creating a list of the writings so I may have a better idea which writings you mean? 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Nah, he expects you to be up-to-date with every region's history and what-not. He doesn't know that the Christians in Etheopia call Jesus by a different name so the that you had the audacity to confuse the name of his Jesus could be just a different region's name for the Christian Jesus is so stupid it's beneath him. That Americans call him Jesus but in Mexico they call him, (as pronounced) Hay-Soos. For you to ask "is this the same Jesus?" and not already know the answer, etc etc.

I guess he's too good and smart for believers too.  &)

Oh, by the way, his inability to communicate clearly? It's our fault.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Quesi on January 13, 2014, 07:00:06 PM
Jesuis?   Do me a favor, ok?  Sit back, take a deep breath, tune into your favorite frequency, and take a moment to contemplate. 

What are you hoping to accomplish here? 

Are you here to learn?  If so, perhaps you might listen more, and think a little bit more before you respond.

Are you here to teach?
  If so, you need to be aware that your tone, failure to understand what others are saying, and condescending attitude, have put you in a position in which you will not be taken seriously, even if you ever actually say something that might be relevant or valuable?

Are you here to join a community?  I'm guessing that can't be your intention, because you are pushing everyone away and insulting everyone.  Even the other theists here.  It is hard to be a theist on this site.  But your presence here is probably an embarrassment to those theists who are here hoping to enlighten us. 

Are you here to challenge yourself?   To put yourself in a foreign, hostile environment, and test your strength and resilience?  Perhaps even test your own faith?  You know, if that was your initial goal, perhaps you might like to re-think your strategy in the future.  You have alienated potential allies, shown anger and weakness, and basically failed.  Perhaps you might like to ask for a do-over and start again. 

Are you here because you feel insecure in your real life?  Perhaps bullied by others, or feeling defeated in your personal life?  Is this a safe place to come and bully others, to make you feel better about yourself?   If this is the case, I know you are not going to admit it here and now.  But think about it.  And I urge you to look at ways in your life that you can build bridges, rather than creating obstacles because obstacles have been placed in your path. 

Is there something else that I am missing?  Do you have some other purpose or goal here?  And if you do, please share it with us. 

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 13, 2014, 07:41:00 PM
Good post Quesi. My guess is that he's hoping that after this, when someone googles "Jesus Nanak Mahavira", there will be results. As of right now, not so much. There are sites that use all three words, but I can't find any that use them in that order. Unless there are commas between them, which makes it mean a much different thing. And the only place I can find that is a thread from last year on a Daily Mail web site that was written by, get this, Jesuis. So he used to use comma's, which at least make a little more sense.

And apparently he thinks atheists are teens without moral guidance, so he's here to straighten our asses out. That always works.

Here is the Daily Mail link, for those of you who want a slightly more coherent insight into what Jesuis is talking about.

http://boards.dailymail.co.uk/news-board-moderated/10258138-atheists-more-intelligent-than-those-who-beleive-god-57.html (http://boards.dailymail.co.uk/news-board-moderated/10258138-atheists-more-intelligent-than-those-who-beleive-god-57.html)

For those who don't, you'll be much happier looking for new cat videos on YouTube.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: SevenPatch on January 13, 2014, 07:47:17 PM

Jesuis,

What is your basis for understanding?
Intellect - but do we know what that is or are some of us believing it to be something that it might not be as written in an evolving dictionary?

Merriam-Webster defines the word “understand” as follows:  to know the meaning of (something, such as the words that someone is saying or a language), to know how (something) works or happens, to know how (someone) thinks, feels or behaves.
But do we know that meaning to be true and can we accept websters team of people(experts) who mind you can change the meaning when they like thus rendering such an account to be untrue at a later date. Can we accept this meaning as a true statement of fact? Why would you when historically they do not stand the test of time.

It is also true that if I disagree with your answer, that doesn't mean I lack understanding.
Of course not. But if is a matter of frequency alignment and brain waves. I might repeat what I said and you might still do not understand -- what then does that say about your understanding. How many students are A+ or geniuses in any given class?

Merriam-Webster defines words based on what they have found to be the most commonly agreed upon definition.  Does that make the definition true? No, but this is only relevant to whether we are capable of understanding each other.  Note how the Merriam-Webster definition works here.

If your interest is to redefine words so the receiver of the answer can’t understand then haven’t you failed to directly answer the direct question?

HINT: There are only two answers to the previous question: 1) You’re not interested in redefining words OR 2) Yes.


How do you know then that the receiver of the answer doesn’t understand the answer?
Doubt.
When one person resonates at the same frequency as the other he knows what he is experiencing and therefore there is no doubt, No words need be said. When there is uncertainty and insecurity there is doubt.

How do you know there is uncertainty and insecurity?  We have already agreed that it is not simple agreement.  So again you have provided evidence validating my hypothesis.  You have pretended to know that doubt is how you know that the receiver of the answer doesn’t understand the answer, when the fact is that you don’t know.


Additionally the giver of the answer must understand the question, correct?  Perhaps the receiver of the answer doesn't believe that the giver of the answer understood the question.  If the giver of the answer doesn't understand the question then perhaps the theist lack of understanding is going unnoticed by the theist.
you have jumped ahead to input "theist" but I guess you want to get to this point quick. Take your time grass hopper it is not a race. If we are simply trying to match resonating frequencies to create peace then there is harmony being sought by two parties - if we are not trying to match the frequencies it is only going to create disharmony. It is all about the will in the individuals.(of course that would require to accept there is such a thing).

Which point should I clarify?  I would be glad to do so.

In the case of the OP question, it was intended to be answered by a theist.  So the giver of the answer would be the theist.

If I rephrase my paragraph, it would be as follows:
“Additionally the theist must understand the question, correct?  Perhaps the receiver of the answer doesn’t believe that the theist understood the question.  If the theist doesn’t understand the question then perhaps the theist lack of understanding is going unnoticed by the theist.”


In my opinion, I think the most direct answer to a direct question would be one that provides the best explanation.  I don't think your answer provides the best explanation and therefore is not a direct answer.
Truth is not based on what you think it is.  - Truth is the unchanging expression frequency resonating at a fixed state - no one can change that or the definition itself would be wrong. God would be the truth but the definition or words could be wrong until we get the wording right or the understanding right.

I never said truth was based on what I think it is.  I expressed my opinion.  Thank you for providing your definition of “Truth”.  I understand your definition.

I will withhold my opinion in regards to your opinion that “God would be the truth”.

I agree that the definition or words could be wrong until we get the wording right or the understanding right.


A possible direct answer to the direct question (Why is it hard for believers to answer a direct question?) is that the believer thinks they know something when they don't actually know.   My answer to the question provides a good explanation.  Currently it explains why it is hard for you Jesuis to give a direct answer to the direct question, which is because you think you know something when you don't actually know.  You think you know that the receiver of the answer doesn't understand the answer when in fact you don't know if the receiver understands or not.
That works both ways.

What works both ways?  How does it work both ways?


Additionally, since the believer doesn't actually know what they think they know they will avoid providing a direct answer to a direct question.  It is much easier to answer directly when you don't pretend to know something.
You want to make a point but it is not quite right. Hense my response. The historical figure and reference "Jesus" did not say he thinks there is a God (And we can find many such historical figures for the debate) but, he said he knows God who is his/our father. Wether you understand this point for us to progress would make all the difference in the mental frequencies and the will to progree will be allowed between us and the peaceful progression of the intellect starts. But also the pretence is there that you might be willing to hold on too that you know something as if it is your life line to some sort of security. However the facts of misrepresentation and untruths do not go unnoticed.

I provided a hypothesis which explains the answers given by believers to the question “Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?”.  So far you continue to provide evidence which supports my hypothesis.

In your last paragraph you pretend to know what the “historical figure and reference Jesus” did or did not say.  How do you know what “Jesus” said?  You don’t.  In order for you to show that I am wrong, you have to stop pretending to know things.

I understand what some Christians believe as I used to be a Christian.  If Jesus said “I know there is a God” that hardly proves that God exists.  I could say I know there is a teapot orbiting between Earth and Mars, it wouldn’t make it true.  Are you attempting to use some sort of argument from authority based on circular reasoning? 

Even if I were to grant you that all of the miracles performed by Jesus were true (that Jesus walked on water, that Jesus were born of a virgin, that Jesus died, rose after 3 days and then ascended into sky), that would still not prove the existence of God.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: SevenPatch on January 13, 2014, 08:52:00 PM
I just simply don't have time to respond to everything here. Seven patch you stated that you were frustrated how you couldn't get an answer about us judging God correct? We don't.

Tim, you do judge.  You just don't realize that you judge.  If God tells you directly that "God exits", you  have to judge whether the statement is correct or not.  Just because the obvious answer to you is yes doesn't mean you didn't make a judgement.

The response about God's perfection came from Scripture. Which is inspired by God. So in a round-about way, God said it. Not me, nor Harbinger, God.

Here you have said 4 things, each one you had to make several judgements.  You have judged that information about God's perfection came from scripture and that it is accurate.  You have judged that scripture is inspired by God.  You have judged that God said it.  You have judged that neither you or harbinger said it, but God said it.

You're making all these judgements of God and about God, yet I can't make a judgement about God.

To further exemplify what I'm saying, another comment was about my response about God caring more about our spiritual well being than our physical. That is not me "giving Him my own personality". That comes from the Bible. Want an exact quote for that? Mark 9:43 " If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—" Jesus' words, not mine.

Here we have more judgements by you of God or about God.  Judgement number 1: You have not given God your own personality.  Judgement number 2: God caring more about our spiritual well being than our physical comes from the Bible.  Judgement number 3: " If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—" are the words of Jesus.


Also on the topic of dodging questions, I found mine still not answered either? What do you people believe about the after life?

I can't speak for anyone else but I don't believe in an after life.  The reason why I don't is because I have yet to see any evidence to convince me an after life exists.  I think belief in an after life is wishful thinking for various reasons.

While we are also on the topic of not insulting and simply making observations, can I ask why all of the above responding people even care about any of this? If I start a forum about "Why don't fairies grant my wishes?" are any of you going to come over to it and start debating people? I would hope not. That would be a sorry waste of time because it's not even worth debating. IF I am some apparently infantile. IF I am so blind and ridiculous for believing something apparently so outrageously stupid, why are you guys wasting time you could be spending with your family and friends debating this stuff? You don't believe it. You don't even think it an intelligent belief system. Why do you care? Is it to try and squash beliefs in God? Why don't you set up a forum against Muslims, Buddhists, Voodoo, Hindus? Why just Christianity? Or is there a community for forums against those ones as well that I am not aware of. That's possible. I just don't get it. If it really is that dumb, why waste your time? I'm here cause I'm defending what I believe. Why are you here? Just food for thought is all.

Lots of questions here. 

A broad answer to most of your questions is that I care what theists believe because what they believe can effect me and does effect me.  In my opinion what theists believe usually has a negative effect on the world.

I think you are confused, this is not a forum against Christianity.  It is a forum to discuss any and all religions.  Note that the title of this forum is "General Religious Discussion"

To answer your final question "Why am I here?", I am here for a number of reasons, the main ones being that I am interested in what others believe and I want to find out what I believe.

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 14, 2014, 08:41:20 AM
I didn't realize asking questions would lead this discussion to a new all time low. 


It can; not the one's you asked, but it can.  When the questions are related to dictionary definitions, loaded questions, questions from feigned ignorance, questions about the baseline way all animals interact with reality(sense and observation) they can indeed do so.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Anfauglir on January 14, 2014, 09:37:53 AM
.....salvation comes from belief and acceptance, at their own god's dictat - and that at the same time, their god is the one who determines his level of comprehensibility.  Its like spending a year in advanced calculus with the teacher going "well, its all really complicated, we'll never understand it and I can't really explain it" - then at final exam you are told "100% score, or we shoot you in the head".

Is any believer prepared to square that circle for me?  That salvation requires understanding, but that understanding is extremely difficult (if not impossible) to come by?

Don't think I've heard any believer try to answer this one?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 14, 2014, 04:12:23 PM

Jesuis,

What is your basis for understanding?
Intellect - but do we know what that is or are some of us believing it to be something that it might not be as written in an evolving dictionary?

Merriam-Webster defines the word “understand” as follows:  to know the meaning of (something, such as the words that someone is saying or a language), to know how (something) works or happens, to know how (someone) thinks, feels or behaves.

But do we know that meaning to be true and can we accept websters team of people(experts) who mind you can change the meaning when they like thus rendering such an account to be untrue at a later date. Can we accept this meaning as a true statement of fact? Why would you when historically they do not stand the test of time.

It is also true that if I disagree with your answer, that doesn't mean I lack understanding.
Of course not. But if is a matter of frequency alignment and brain waves. I might repeat what I said and you might still do not understand -- what then does that say about your understanding. How many students are A+ or geniuses in any given class?

Merriam-Webster defines words based on what they have found to be the most commonly agreed upon definition.  Does that make the definition true? No, but this is only relevant to whether we are capable of understanding each other.  Note how the Merriam-Webster definition works here.

If your interest is to redefine words so the receiver of the answer can’t understand then haven’t you failed to directly answer the direct question?

HINT: There are only two answers to the previous question: 1) You’re not interested in redefining words OR 2) Yes.


How do you know then that the receiver of the answer doesn’t understand the answer?
Doubt.
When one person resonates at the same frequency as the other he knows what he is experiencing and therefore there is no doubt, No words need be said. When there is uncertainty and insecurity there is doubt.

How do you know there is uncertainty and insecurity?  We have already agreed that it is not simple agreement.  So again you have provided evidence validating my hypothesis.  You have pretended to know that doubt is how you know that the receiver of the answer doesn’t understand the answer, when the fact is that you don’t know.


Additionally the giver of the answer must understand the question, correct?  Perhaps the receiver of the answer doesn't believe that the giver of the answer understood the question.  If the giver of the answer doesn't understand the question then perhaps the theist lack of understanding is going unnoticed by the theist.
you have jumped ahead to input "theist" but I guess you want to get to this point quick. Take your time grass hopper it is not a race. If we are simply trying to match resonating frequencies to create peace then there is harmony being sought by two parties - if we are not trying to match the frequencies it is only going to create disharmony. It is all about the will in the individuals.(of course that would require to accept there is such a thing).

Which point should I clarify?  I would be glad to do so.

In the case of the OP question, it was intended to be answered by a theist.  So the giver of the answer would be the theist.

If I rephrase my paragraph, it would be as follows:
“Additionally the theist must understand the question, correct?  Perhaps the receiver of the answer doesn’t believe that the theist understood the question.  If the theist doesn’t understand the question then perhaps the theist lack of understanding is going unnoticed by the theist.”


In my opinion, I think the most direct answer to a direct question would be one that provides the best explanation.  I don't think your answer provides the best explanation and therefore is not a direct answer.
Truth is not based on what you think it is.  - Truth is the unchanging expression frequency resonating at a fixed state - no one can change that or the definition itself would be wrong. God would be the truth but the definition or words could be wrong until we get the wording right or the understanding right.

I never said truth was based on what I think it is.  I expressed my opinion.  Thank you for providing your definition of “Truth”.  I understand your definition.

I will withhold my opinion in regards to your opinion that “God would be the truth”.

I agree that the definition or words could be wrong until we get the wording right or the understanding right.


A possible direct answer to the direct question (Why is it hard for believers to answer a direct question?) is that the believer thinks they know something when they don't actually know.   My answer to the question provides a good explanation.  Currently it explains why it is hard for you Jesuis to give a direct answer to the direct question, which is because you think you know something when you don't actually know.  You think you know that the receiver of the answer doesn't understand the answer when in fact you don't know if the receiver understands or not.
That works both ways.

What works both ways?  How does it work both ways?


Additionally, since the believer doesn't actually know what they think they know they will avoid providing a direct answer to a direct question.  It is much easier to answer directly when you don't pretend to know something.
You want to make a point but it is not quite right. Hense my response. The historical figure and reference "Jesus" did not say he thinks there is a God (And we can find many such historical figures for the debate) but, he said he knows God who is his/our father. Wether you understand this point for us to progress would make all the difference in the mental frequencies and the will to progree will be allowed between us and the peaceful progression of the intellect starts. But also the pretence is there that you might be willing to hold on too that you know something as if it is your life line to some sort of security. However the facts of misrepresentation and untruths do not go unnoticed.

I provided a hypothesis which explains the answers given by believers to the question “Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?”.  So far you continue to provide evidence which supports my hypothesis.

In your last paragraph you pretend to know what the “historical figure and reference Jesus” did or did not say.  How do you know what “Jesus” said?  You don’t.  In order for you to show that I am wrong, you have to stop pretending to know things.

I understand what some Christians believe as I used to be a Christian.  If Jesus said “I know there is a God” that hardly proves that God exists.  I could say I know there is a teapot orbiting between Earth and Mars, it wouldn’t make it true.  Are you attempting to use some sort of argument from authority based on circular reasoning? 

Even if I were to grant you that all of the miracles performed by Jesus were true (that Jesus walked on water, that Jesus were born of a virgin, that Jesus died, rose after 3 days and then ascended into sky), that would still not prove the existence of God.
And what frequency are you resonating at by all of this.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Azdgari on January 14, 2014, 04:15:48 PM
So, you not only ignore all the content of SevenPatch's post, but in doing so you ask a question that he's already explained to be meaningless...and on top of it all, you quote his entire long post in your one-liner response.

Communication fail.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 14, 2014, 04:37:06 PM
.....salvation comes from belief and acceptance, at their own god's dictat - and that at the same time, their god is the one who determines his level of comprehensibility.  Its like spending a year in advanced calculus with the teacher going "well, its all really complicated, we'll never understand it and I can't really explain it" - then at final exam you are told "100% score, or we shoot you in the head".

Is any believer prepared to square that circle for me?  That salvation requires understanding, but that understanding is extremely difficult (if not impossible) to come by?

Don't think I've heard any believer try to answer this one?
Are you not a believer?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 14, 2014, 04:52:49 PM
So, you not only ignore all the content of SevenPatch's post, but in doing so you ask a question that he's already explained to be meaningless...and on top of it all, you quote his entire long post in your one-liner response.

Communication fail.
To be honest we are only doing a lot of nothing here without any progress.
My original post was that perhaps some are not understanding the answers and that it could be a frequency related problem. I suspect if you say I am not understanding you I have a problem with that frequency and if I say you are not understanding me that could be a frequency related problem but if everyone is uncompromising then what is the point? I do not need you to answer all these questions - what I need you to address is the frequency issue. I am trying to get you to tell me that you know the frequency of life what it is where it comes from and where it goes. Not that the Bible says the Quran says the Webster dictionary says. It just does not gel. What tests scientific or otherwise have you done to establish what this frequency of life is?? We see life all around us - it is said "God created life" in all the world scriptures which are taught by a man say. These men of God Theists -- Perhaps reject our level of seeing and hearing as they seem to indicate we are not seeing the big picture - that our frequencies are is limited by our frequencies of sense perception. Scientists tell us that everything we see hear etc is an illusion - that the the truth lies beneath this illusion of sense perception and have made many experiments to explain these illusionery things for us to play with based on the laws that govern the hidden physical reality. I am only asking for a fact here the ones theists talk about and know exists and say we can all know what they know. What is the frequency of life. Why is it so hard to get a simple straight answer from atheists?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: skeptic54768 on January 14, 2014, 05:05:00 PM
Jesuis,

I have a feeling the atheists don't care about our answers. They ask a question and we answer and they complain or say that it's not good enough or that we have no way of knowing how it's true.

Then, why do they even bother asking the questions in the first place if the jury is already rigged with pre-programmed responses?

Atheists have never explained to me how we can think if we are only made up of atoms and we all know atoms can not think. The animation of the body is the soul. When people die, the soul is gone. This is why even atheists don't keep a corpse around despite the fact that it's still the same atoms. The "spark of life" has been lost and it can't come back.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: OldChurchGuy on January 14, 2014, 05:12:45 PM
Jesuis,

I have a feeling the atheists don't care about our answers. They ask a question and we answer and they complain or say that it's not good enough or that we have no way of knowing how it's true.

Then, why do they even bother asking the questions in the first place if the jury is already rigged with pre-programmed responses?

As a fellow theist, I understand the frustration some are having with you and Jesuis.  Having followed this thread, I am also at a loss to proclaim I understand the emphasis being placed on frequency or the significance of frequency. 

I have concluded a definition of frequency as the term is being used in this thread is not possible.  Similar to defining Heaven. 

Perhaps you or Jesuis or both would be so kind as to provide an example of a successful frequency between two people? 

Would you also provide an example of a successful frequency between a person and God? 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: skeptic54768 on January 14, 2014, 05:16:51 PM
Old Church Guy, I have not read every post.

What is a "frequency" that you are talking about? I have personally never used this term in discussion.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Traveler on January 14, 2014, 05:25:38 PM
Jesuis...

Atheists have never explained to me how we can think if we are only made up of atoms and we all know atoms can not think. The animation of the body is the soul. When people die, the soul is gone. This is why even atheists don't keep a corpse around despite the fact that it's still the same atoms. The "spark of life" has been lost and it can't come back.

Do you know how computers work? At the machine level, they are simply on/off switches. I think you'll agree that a simple switch (think of a light switch) cannot think. An assembly programmer then abstracts those on/off machine signals to represent the binary number system. That is then abstracted into a language that can be read by normal humans. Then, and only then, can the computer be relatively easily programmed to do stuff, including some basic learning.

No, atoms cannot think, just as an on/off switch cannot calculate the interest on your savings account. But you put a bunch of them together into larger things, and they can start solving an amazing array of problems, and yes, can even become a learning intelligence.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: skeptic54768 on January 14, 2014, 05:26:49 PM
Jesuis?   Do me a favor, ok?  Sit back, take a deep breath, tune into your favorite frequency, and take a moment to contemplate. 

What are you hoping to accomplish here? 

Are you here to learn?  If so, perhaps you might listen more, and think a little bit more before you respond.

Are you here to teach?
  If so, you need to be aware that your tone, failure to understand what others are saying, and condescending attitude, have put you in a position in which you will not be taken seriously, even if you ever actually say something that might be relevant or valuable?

Are you here to join a community?  I'm guessing that can't be your intention, because you are pushing everyone away and insulting everyone.  Even the other theists here.  It is hard to be a theist on this site.  But your presence here is probably an embarrassment to those theists who are here hoping to enlighten us. 

Are you here to challenge yourself?   To put yourself in a foreign, hostile environment, and test your strength and resilience?  Perhaps even test your own faith?  You know, if that was your initial goal, perhaps you might like to re-think your strategy in the future.  You have alienated potential allies, shown anger and weakness, and basically failed.  Perhaps you might like to ask for a do-over and start again. 

Are you here because you feel insecure in your real life?  Perhaps bullied by others, or feeling defeated in your personal life?  Is this a safe place to come and bully others, to make you feel better about yourself?   If this is the case, I know you are not going to admit it here and now.  But think about it.  And I urge you to look at ways in your life that you can build bridges, rather than creating obstacles because obstacles have been placed in your path. 

Is there something else that I am missing?  Do you have some other purpose or goal here?  And if you do, please share it with us.

Would it be unfair to say that these same things are things atheists need to work on as well?

Perhaps some atheists are here for bullying. Perhaps some atheists feel insecure in their life.

You guys tell us not to be so sure of ourselves like we know everything. But, don't some atheists act like they know everything too? I see atheists come on Christian forums just to say how idiotic we are. Wouldn't that be bullying?

It just seems that everything atheists accuse theists of being, atheists act that way too.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Traveler on January 14, 2014, 05:28:26 PM
Old Church Guy, I have not read every post.

What is a "frequency" that you are talking about? I have personally never used this term in discussion.

Jesuis keeps bringing this up, and I don't think any of us know what he's talking about. Jesuis, can you please define frequency in the way you are using it?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: skeptic54768 on January 14, 2014, 05:28:49 PM
Jesuis...

Atheists have never explained to me how we can think if we are only made up of atoms and we all know atoms can not think. The animation of the body is the soul. When people die, the soul is gone. This is why even atheists don't keep a corpse around despite the fact that it's still the same atoms. The "spark of life" has been lost and it can't come back.

Do you know how computers work? At the machine level, they are simply on/off switches. I think you'll agree that a simple switch (think of a light switch) cannot think. An assembly programmer then abstracts those on/off machine signals to represent the binary number system. That is then abstracted into a language that can be read by normal humans. Then, and only then, can the computer be relatively easily programmed to do stuff, including some basic learning.

No, atoms cannot think, just as an on/off switch cannot calculate the interest on your savings account. But you put a bunch of them together into larger things, and they can start solving an amazing array of problems, and yes, can even become a learning intelligence.

That would be a valid analogy if you agreed that humans are intelligently designed just like computers are intelligently designed.

But, you guys DON'T think humans are intelligently designed, so it's a false analogy.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Dante on January 14, 2014, 05:30:28 PM
They ask a question and we answer and they complain or say that it's not good enough or that we have no way of knowing how it's true./

Because you don't know it's true, you simply believe it to be true.

Quote
Then, why do they even bother asking the questions in the first place if the jury is already rigged with pre-programmed responses?

Mostly in an attempt to get you, and others, to examine the veracity of your beliefs.

Quote
Atheists have never explained to me how we can think if we are only made up of atoms and we all know atoms can not think. The animation of the body is the soul. When people die, the soul is gone. This is why even atheists don't keep a corpse around despite the fact that it's still the same atoms. The "spark of life" has been lost and it can't come back.

Do animals have souls?

edit:fixed quotes
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Traveler on January 14, 2014, 05:31:13 PM
sceptic, forget the analogy, and look at the example. It still stands. Things evolve and grow from the simple to the complex. A fertilized egg through fetus, to baby, and eventually to a physics professor.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: skeptic54768 on January 14, 2014, 05:34:42 PM
sceptic, forget the analogy, and look at the example. It still stands. Things evolve and grow from the simple to the complex. A fertilized egg through fetus, to baby, and eventually to a physics professor.

Yes, but remember that fertilized egg has all the information in it to become a human. It has Human DNA. The first cells that showed up "billions" of years ago did not contain human DNA.

This is why creationists are skeptical of the atheistic theory.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 14, 2014, 05:37:09 PM
Jesuis,

I have a feeling the atheists don't care about our answers. They ask a question and we answer and they complain or say that it's not good enough or that we have no way of knowing how it's true.

Then, why do they even bother asking the questions in the first place if the jury is already rigged with pre-programmed responses?

Atheists have never explained to me how we can think if we are only made up of atoms and we all know atoms can not think. The animation of the body is the soul. When people die, the soul is gone. This is why even atheists don't keep a corpse around despite the fact that it's still the same atoms. The "spark of life" has been lost and it can't come back.
At last some sense. It has been said by theists (those who know God)  that the human body is made up of three things the physical matter governed by physical laws the mental body governed by desires - do unto other as you would have them do unto you - and the spirit or soul body that is created in the image and likeness of God trapped by these laws and is eternal bound in birth aging disease and suffering.
 
So what I think I understood from all the theists is that the soul in the human birth is the one precious birth where the level of consciousness in the physical realm can free itself if it understood this entrapment of laws as it really is a spark of the divine free compassionate conscious eternal etc all the things we cannot scientifically prove exists but we know it to be a part of our true self.

In my quest to become an atheist I joined here to be convinced of the wisdom they may posses. The logic the compassion the humanity the things that makes us more human than animal would be a good start. If the atheists (those who know there is no God) can stop bible bashing me an explain the frequency of the soul of life I would begin to understand where they are coming from and maybe understand why they are atheists. But when I ask what is life's frequency I seem to be getting the run around. Why is that? Ignorance or Arrogance? I was actually expecting  much more intelligent answers thus far the best was "You are talking out of you ass" I feel so loved . What humanity there be here. What level of frequency is this that makes them so humane?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: skeptic54768 on January 14, 2014, 05:37:51 PM
Mostly in an attempt to get you, and others, to examine the veracity of your beliefs.

We have examined it. We found the atheistic arguments unconvincing. That's why we're still believers.

Do animals have souls?

No. But, not every animals is unique like humans. Put a thousand piranhas in a tank and they are all the same.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Dante on January 14, 2014, 05:40:16 PM
Do animals have souls?

No. But, not every animals is unique like humans. Put a thousand piranhas in a tank and they are all the same.

But there are animals that think, no? So if they can think, they must posess a soul, no? Why not? Or, why can they think if they have no soul?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Dante on January 14, 2014, 05:42:18 PM
If the atheists (those who know there is no God) can stop bible bashing me an explain the frequency of the soul of life I would begin to understand where they are coming from and maybe understand why they are atheists. But when I ask what is life's frequency I seem to be getting the run around. Why is that? Ignorance or Arrogance? I was actually expecting  much more intelligent answers thus far the best was "You are talking out of you ass" I feel so loved . What humanity there be here. What level of frequency is this that makes them so humane?

I haven't followed your posts from the beginning, so I'm not clear on what you're going on about with this "frequency of life" phrase.

What is the frequency of life?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: skeptic54768 on January 14, 2014, 05:44:02 PM
Do animals have souls?

No. But, not every animals is unique like humans. Put a thousand piranhas in a tank and they are all the same.

But there are animals that think, no? So if they can think, they must posess a soul, no? Why not? Or, why can they think if they have no soul?

Animals go on instinct. Humans go on choice. The lion doesn't think if about eating his own cubs, he just does it. Humans think about killing their own and do it. Lions have no laws against eating their cubs and they don't go extinct. If we had no laws against killing our young, would humans go extinct? Probably not. So, why do we have laws against it? Because it's against God.

Atheists have also never explained why we allow the mentally disabled to live instead of just throwing them in the trash when they are born. That's what China does with disabled babies.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Traveler on January 14, 2014, 05:44:38 PM
Jesuis, again I ask what you mean by frequency. We cannot answer a question that makes no sense.

Dictionary definitions all say something like "rate at which something happens." I can't squish that definition into your statements and have it make sense.

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: OldChurchGuy on January 14, 2014, 05:53:08 PM
Old Church Guy, I have not read every post.

What is a "frequency" that you are talking about? I have personally never used this term in discussion.

You are correct that you have not used "frequency" in your posts.  I was hoping you understood Jesuis when he used the term.  My apologies but I am glad to know I am not the only theist who does not understand the application of the word in the context of theology.

Jesuis: will you be so kind as to provide examples as per my earlier post?

Many thanks,

OldChurchGuy
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Dante on January 14, 2014, 05:56:52 PM
Do animals have souls?

No. But, not every animals is unique like humans. Put a thousand piranhas in a tank and they are all the same.

But there are animals that think, no? So if they can think, they must posess a soul, no? Why not? Or, why can they think if they have no soul?

Animals go on instinct.

Ok, sure. I can live with that. So let me rephrase to address your original statement.

The animation of the body is the soul.

Are animals not animated?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 14, 2014, 05:57:41 PM
Because you don't know it's true, you simply believe it to be true.
But you do not know what the truth is either. A truth cannot ever be changed. The beauty of science is that it could be. Would you die(put your head on a block) for such a truth? I doubt it.

Mostly in an attempt to get you, and others, to examine the veracity of your beliefs.
Perhaps it is you that might need to examine your beliefs - there is a cyclic patter here. Belief. Cognitive Dissonance.

Do animals have souls?
Can you explain what you mean by that word? Souls are theists expressions like eternity love god everlasting heaven all conscious etc. I do not know how a book can clarify what the meanings are if the author of the book does not know the meaning of it relative to the theist.  If you do not mind evidence would support my interest in becoming an atheist. Inner Peace. As said by master oogway
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Quesi on January 14, 2014, 05:58:19 PM

Would it be unfair to say that these same things are things atheists need to work on as well?

Perhaps some atheists are here for bullying. Perhaps some atheists feel insecure in their life.

You guys tell us not to be so sure of ourselves like we know everything. But, don't some atheists act like they know everything too? I see atheists come on Christian forums just to say how idiotic we are. Wouldn't that be bullying?

It just seems that everything atheists accuse theists of being, atheists act that way too.

Absolutely.  But you know, when I look at most posters here, I sort of have a sense of what it is that they hope to get out of the forum.  Are there insecure atheist bullies?  Absolutely.  But atheists, like theists, are a pretty diverse bunch.  And we have a diverse set of reasons for being on this forum. 

I think I joined for my daughter.  To better align myself with the secular world as I'm raising her.  I'm here for the community.  The familiar banter than reminds me of my beloved father and his circle of friends.  I'm also here to learn.  And I have certainly learned a lot.  Sometimes I have insight to share.  Frustrations to vent.   

You, Skeptic.  You I would say are here to spread the word.  You are here to teach.  To warn us.  To challenge us.  To find a few souls to save.  Am I wrong?  You argue and you fight and I disagree with most everything you say.  But I think that your reason for being here is noble, according to your beliefs and values.  I'm am sure it is more complex than that.  But am I completely off?  I bet I'm not. 

All of us CAME here.  We sought this forum out.  We want something from the forum.  And I think that it is a valid question to ask.

I genuinely have no idea what Jesuis is seeking here.  Do you?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: skeptic54768 on January 14, 2014, 06:01:13 PM

Would it be unfair to say that these same things are things atheists need to work on as well?

Perhaps some atheists are here for bullying. Perhaps some atheists feel insecure in their life.

You guys tell us not to be so sure of ourselves like we know everything. But, don't some atheists act like they know everything too? I see atheists come on Christian forums just to say how idiotic we are. Wouldn't that be bullying?

It just seems that everything atheists accuse theists of being, atheists act that way too.

Absolutely.  But you know, when I look at most posters here, I sort of have a sense of what it is that they hope to get out of the forum.  Are there insecure atheist bullies?  Absolutely.  But atheists, like theists, are a pretty diverse bunch.  And we have a diverse set of reasons for being on this forum. 

I think I joined for my daughter.  To better align myself with the secular world as I'm raising her.  I'm here for the community.  The familiar banter than reminds me of my beloved father and his circle of friends.  I'm also here to learn.  And I have certainly learned a lot.  Sometimes I have insight to share.  Frustrations to vent.   

You, Skeptic.  You I would say are here to spread the word.  You are here to teach.  To warn us.  To challenge us.  To find a few souls to save.  Am I wrong?  You argue and you fight and I disagree with most everything you say.  But I think that your reason for being here is noble, according to your beliefs and values.  I'm am sure it is more complex than that.  But am I completely off?  I bet I'm not. 

All of us CAME here.  We sought this forum out.  We want something from the forum.  And I think that it is a valid question to ask.

I genuinely have no idea what Jesuis is seeking here.  Do you?

I do wish to save souls. But, if people don't want to be saved, it's their choice. You can only tell a person "Don't jump off the bridge!" and give them so many reasons not to jump but the decision to jump is still theirs. If they jump, the best you can say is "Well, i tried."
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Dante on January 14, 2014, 06:01:44 PM
Because you don't know it's true, you simply believe it to be true.
But you do not know what the truth is either. A truth cannot ever be changed. The beauty of science is that it could be. Would you die(put your head on a block) for such a truth? I doubt it.

Ah, but I don't claim to know, unlike most theists.

Quote
Mostly in an attempt to get you, and others, to examine the veracity of your beliefs.
Perhaps it is you that might need to examine your beliefs - there is a cyclic patter here. Belief. Cognitive Dissonance.

Perhaps.

Quote
Do animals have souls?
Can you explain what you mean by that word? Souls are theists expressions like eternity love god everlasting heaven all conscious etc. I do not know how a book can clarify what the meanings are if the author of the book does not know the meaning of it relative to the theist.  If you do not mind evidence would support my interest in becoming an atheist. Inner Peace. As said by master oogway

I mean it just the way you think I mean it; in the theistic sense.

edit: gah! more trouble with quoting
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 14, 2014, 06:21:49 PM

To be honest we are only doing a lot of nothing here without any progress.

You have summarized the entire field of theology in one sentence.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 14, 2014, 06:26:41 PM

I have a feeling the atheists don't care about our answers.

There's a good reason for that. They are crap. If they weren't crap, we might care.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: nogodsforme on January 14, 2014, 06:30:07 PM
Two live ones! I'll just sit back and watch. 8)
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 14, 2014, 06:36:53 PM
Mostly in an attempt to get you, and others, to examine the veracity of your beliefs.

We have examined it. We found the atheistic arguments unconvincing. That's why we're still believers.


So you buy the atheist arguments for Aa, Aah, Abil Addu, Addu, Adeona, Adjassou-Linguetor, Adjinakou, Adya Houn'tò, Agassou, Agé, Agwé, Ahijah, Ahti, Aizen My?-?, Ajisukitakahikone, Ak Ana, Aken , Aker , Äkräs, Aku, Allatu, Altjira, Amano-Iwato, Ame-no-Koyane, Am-heh, Amihan, Amon-Re, Amun, Amurru, Anapel, Anath, Andjety, Anhur, Anit, Anu, Anubis, Apsu, Arianrod, Ash , Ashtoreth, Assur, Astarte, Aten, Atum, Ayida-Weddo, Ayizan, Azaka Medeh, Azaka-Tonnerre, Azumi-no-isora, Baal, Bacalou, Badessy, Bagadjimbiri, Bahloo, Baiame, Bakunawa, Bamapana, Banaitja, Ba-Pef, Baron Cimetière, Baron La Croix, Baron Samedi, Barraiya, Bata , Bathala, Bau, Beltis, Beltu, Belus, Bernardo Carpio, Bes, Biamie, Bilé, Binbeal, Boli Shah, Bossou Ashadeh, Budai, Budai, Bugady Musun, Bugid Y Aiba, Bunjil, Cai Shen, Ceros, Chenti-cheti, Chi You, Chimata-No-Kami, Chun Kwan, Cihang Zhenren, City god, Clermeil, Congo (loa), Consus, Cronos, Cunina, Dagan, Dagda, Dagon, Daikokuten, Damballa, Dan Petro, Dan Wédo, Dauke, Dea Dia, Dhakhan, Diable Tonnere, Diana of Ephesus, Diejuste, Dimmer, Dinclinsin, Dragon King, Dragon King of the East Sea, Duamutef, Dumu-zi-abzu, Ea, Ebisu, Edulia, El, Elali, Elder Zhang Guo, Elum, Engurra, Enki, Enma, En-Mersi, Enurestu, Erlang Shen, Erzulie, Ezili Dantor, Fan Kuai, Fei Lian, Feng Bo, Four sons of Horus, Fu Lu Shou, Fu Xi, F?jin, Fukurokuju, Furrina, Futsunushi, Gasan lil, Gasan-abzu, Goibniu, Gong Gong, Govannon, Gran Maître, Grand Bois, Guan Yu, Guangchengzi, Gunfled, Gwydion, Hachiman, Hadad, Hakudo Maru, Han Xiang, Hapi, Hapy, Heka , Hemen, Hermanubis, Hermes , Heryshaf, Hoderi, Hongjun Laozu, Hoori, Horus, Houyi, Huang Feihu, Hung Shing, Iah, Ibong Adarna, Iku-Turso, Ilmatar, Ilmatar, Imhotep, Imset, Iron-Crutch Li, Isis, Istar, Isum, Iuno Lucina, Izanagi, Jade Emperor, Jar'Edo Wens, Ji Gong, Julana, Jumala, Jupiter, Juroujin, Kaawan, Kagu-tsuchi, Kalfu, Kalma, Kara Khan, Karora, Kerridwen, Khaltesh-Anki, Khepri, Khnum, Khonsu, Kidili, Kini'je, Kitchen God, Kneph, K?jin, Ksitigarbha, Kui Xing, Kuk, Kumakatok, Kuski-banda, Kuu, Ku'urkil, Lagas, Lan Caihe, Lei Gong, Leizhenzi, Lempo, Ler, Li Jing , L'inglesou, Llaw Gyffes, Lleu, Loco (loa), Lü Dongbin, Lugal-Amarada, Maahes, Ma-banba-anna, Mademoiselle Charlotte, Maîtresse Délai, Maîtresse Hounon'gon, Maman Brigitte, Mamaragan, Mami, Mamlambo, Manawyddan, Mandulis, Mangar-kunjer-kunja, Marassa Jumeaux, Marduk, Maria Cacao, Maria Makiling, Maria Sinukuan, Marinette, Mars, Marzin, Matet boat, Mayari, Mbaba Mwana Waresa, Meditrina, Mehen, Melek, Memetona, Menthu, Merodach, Mider, Mielikki, Min , Molech, Mombu, Morrigu, Mounanchou, Mulu-hursang, Mu-ul-lil, Muzha , Na Tuk Kong, Nana Buluku, Naunet, Nebo, Nehebkau, Nergal, Nezha , Nga, Nin, Ninib, Ninigi-no-Mikoto, Nin-lil-la, Nin-man, Nio, Nirig, Ni-zu, Njirana, Nogomain, Nuada Argetlam, Numakulla, Num-Torum, Nusku, Nu'tenut, Nyyrikki, Odin, Ogma, Ogoun, Ogoun, Ogyrvan, Ohoyamatsumi, ?kuninushi, Omoikane (Shinto), Ops, Osiris, Pa-cha, Pangu, Papa Legba, Peko, Perkele, Persephone, Petbe, Pie (loa), Pluto, Potina, Ptah, Pugu, Pundjel, Pwyll, Qarradu, Qebehsenuef, Qin Shubao, Qingxu Daode Zhenjun, Ra, Raijin, Randeng Daoren, Rauni , Resheph, Rigantona, Robigus, Royal Uncle Cao, Ry?jin, Saa, Sahi, Samas, Sarutahiko, Saturn, Sebek, Seker, Serapis, Sesmu, Shakpana, Shalem, Shangdi, Shango, Sharrab, Shen , Shennong, Shezmu, Shina-Tsu-Hiko, Simbi, Sin, Sirtumu, Sobek, Sobkou, S?j?b?, Sokk-mimi, Sopdu, Sousson-Pannan, Statilinus, Suijin, Suiren, Suqamunu, Susanoo, Tagd, Taiyi Zhenren, Tala, Tam Kung, Tammuz, Tapio, Tenenet, Tengu, Tenjin, Theban Triad, Thoth, Ti Jean Quinto, Ti Malice, Tian, Ti-Jean Petro, Tilmun, Todote, Toko'yoto, Tomam, Tu Di Gong, Tu Er Shen, Tuonetar, Tuoni, Ubargisi, Ubilulu, U-dimmer-an-kia, Ueras, Ugayafukiaezu, U-ki, Ukko, UKqili, Umai, U-Mersi, Umvelinqangi, Ungud, Unkulunkulu, Ura-gala, U-sab-sib, Usiququmadevu, U-Tin-dir-ki, U-urugal, Vaisravana, Vaticanus, Vediovis, Vellamo, Venus, Vesta, Wadj-wer, Wen Zhong , Weneg, Wenshu Guangfa Tianzun, Wepwawet, Werethekau, Wollunqua, Wong Tai Sin, Wuluwaid, Xargi, Xaya Iccita, Xevioso, Xuan Wu , Yama, Yau, Yemaja, Youchao, Yuanshi Tianzun, Yuchi Jingde, Yunzhongzi, Zagaga, Zaraqu, Zer-panitu, Zhang Guifang, Zheng Lun, Zhongli Quan, Zhu Rong , Zonget...but not the atheist argument for Yahweh, which just happens to be the deity popular in the location and time you are living. Hunh, I wonder why?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 14, 2014, 07:35:07 PM
Merriam-Webster defines words based on what they have found to be the most commonly agreed upon definition.  Does that make the definition true? No, but this is only relevant to whether we are capable of understanding each other.  Note how the Merriam-Webster definition works here.

If your interest is to redefine words so the receiver of the answer can't understand then haven't you failed to directly answer the direct question?

HINT: There are only two answers to the previous question: 1) You're not interested in redefining words OR 2) Yes.
Not at all - All I need do is keep repeating the words until the popular belief becomes the way I say it. They do their jobs with time. For accuracy we will say.
1.Theists know God
2.Atheists do not know. (that makes all of us instantly atheists) human beings. Theists the authority on God. A believer is not an authority. Nothing circular here.

How do you know there is uncertainty and insecurity?  We have already agreed that it is not simple agreement.  So again you have provided evidence validating my hypothesis.  You have pretended to know that doubt is how you know that the receiver of the answer doesn't understand the answer, when the fact is that you don't know.
How do you know that your 2 year old does not know calculus? Observational responses. You may cal it trolling I may call you trolling but what do you really know. What can you say for certain. What is your resonant frequency in your mind. is it chaotic or is it peaceful. How do you know the truth is it giving out love continuously or is it forcing others to be like you?


Which point should I clarify?  I would be glad to do so.
What do you know of the mind set of a theist? Do you know one in the present moment. Do you know a human being like history demands there be such a person? What is the criteria for such a person? What is the frequency that they resonate at? Any of these would be good.

In the case of the OP question, it was intended to be answered by a theist.  So the giver of the answer would be the theist.
I doubt that - as we now know a theist knows God therefore was not intended to be answered by a theist but a believer. Resulting in cognitive dissonance. Jews versus Christians versus Muslims versus Hindus, versus Buddhist or scientist versus pseudo scientists - or one crack pot versus another crackpot. You already know this waring method don't you? Why would you keep aiding it. Only the truth can set us free - so what is that frequency? Who has the truth? Theists or atheists? You would have me believe the atheist are the harbingers of truth when in reality they will say "you are talking out of your ass" What will you be willing to die for that is true? We know where the Theists stand on the matter!

If I rephrase my paragraph, it would be as follows:
additionally the theist must understand the question, correct?  Perhaps the receiver of the answer doesn't believe that the theist understood the question.  If the theist doesn't understand the question then perhaps the theist lack of understanding is going unnoticed by the theist.”
Going unnoticed or ignored? For instance a theist(one who knows god) said Blessed are the pure at heart for they shall see God. There is no doubt in his mind. Perhaps it is the purity frequency that needs to be examined in life we live?


I never said truth was based on what I think it is.  I expressed my opinion.  Thank you for providing your definition of Truth.  I understand your definition.
Good! Keep it for the science you call true and keep applying it when the science is actually false to help scientists uncover the frequency of life. Theist would love all people to be truthful. "Thou shall not lie" one atheist has said to me that big Al Aka God said it.

I will withhold my opinion in regards to your opinion that aged would be the Truth.
Since nothing we have seen at the level of the senses tells us there is a truth one has to ask how do we know the truth exists why we care about truth. One would have ask where did the word come from? Then it might be said a Theist taught us the difference and the purpose. For only he knows what the truth is "God". But lets move on.

I agree that the definition or words could be wrong until we get the wording right or the understanding right.
Hence frequency "peace be unto you" and "me" as we keep doing this to get to the truth. If you bring peace come in peace and I bring peace and come in peace  we could be off to a good humane start. devoid of religion but it has some importance so saith the theists. They know something about the laws that are creating suffering through pure physical interaction and Where the laws of forgiveness and compassion dwells. Perhaps it is the human interaction that they want us to solve. And by that the theists do not say "you are talking out of your ass"
for they understand this false game creating negativity in the mind of humans.

What works both ways?  How does it work both ways?
Knowing. If you know something share it if you do not what is there to share. Your frequency of mind set would dictate what you know. One person frequency response was "you are talking out of your ass" My internal picture was he must do this often for him to resonate such a response to my post. Even others that think that was OK must also resonate at that level. I Almost felt like throwing pearls to swines. But what made me feel good was when he said and elevated me to the level of Jesus. As if Jesus was his authority all of a sudden and I was suffering from illusions of grandeur. I smiled. What a weird set of communication posts that such believers have!  They obviously are not very fine tuned in knowing.


I provided a hypothesis which explains the answers given by believers to the question “Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?”.  So far you continue to provide evidence which supports my hypothesis.
There is a problem here you are a believer and you are asking believers. The reason for not getting the answers to the questions you seek is clear. You need to get believers out of the way and go to an authority. A theist perhaps if you are really so inclined for such answers? Lie every field of study - if you really want to know something go directly to the authority. Always works for any student if they want to know something.

In your last paragraph you pretend to know what the historical figure and reference Jesus did or did not say.  How do you know what Jesus said?  You don't.  In order for you to show that I am wrong, you have to stop pretending to know things.
I do not know what Jesus said - it was "historical reference" being made to the man called Jesus. My reasoning was that he knew God and if he said it there was a reasoning for it being said. I put it up for discussion and for veracity. One or two atheist holds the Jesus figure as a Grandiose one. Pretty good start for atheism.

I understand what some Christians believe as I used to be a Christian.  If Jesus said “I know there is a God that hardly proves that God exists.
Of course it does not prove anything. Think about how you would prove that God exists. Hint: Blessed are the pure at heart for they shall see God." But why is he such a mad man. You know all that inhumanity he is trying to create with his followers - to turn the other cheek to the enemy - to love your enemies to not kill etc. Maybe he knew something about the laws of the universe and consciousness that some are only now understanding or discovering and putting it all together?

I could say I know there is a teapot orbiting between Earth and Mars, it wouldn't make it true.  Are you attempting to use some sort of argument from authority based on circular reasoning? 
It is not the same thing though. You could say it but if you were willing to make peace for saying it, and willing to die for knowing that truth and it was just true to you as it is today ad was a peace making strategy - maybe in time we will all come know if you were telling the truth or not? It is not circular it is what it is for you or him to be true and having a purpose for us all. What he would have insisted on on what "thou shall not lie" - so if one was lying about said tea pot and died for said tea pot then it would be still a big lie. If in time we discovered that there is no teapot and we had nailed you on a cross for lying then no one would raise an eyebrow over it. Your proposition would not have lasted thousands of years just because you said it. Truth has a frequency with life eternal and that comes from a divine. According to the theists - God.

Even if I were to grant you that all of the miracles performed by Jesus were true (that Jesus walked on water, that Jesus were born of a virgin, that Jesus died, rose after 3 days and then ascended into sky), that would still not prove the existence of God.
That would still be a reasoning relative to you - but he asks mankind in his teachings to do certain things to know what he knows - that we can do. You being a Christian of past one knows that the path may be hard to the mind and its desires but the theists are asking us to become aware of these forces in mind and activity and to make them peaceful and compassionate - to rise above them as they do and we all know the Theists lead us by example because the Theist knows God. "Historical reference to Jesus" I do not know what he actually said but the general accepted version sounds like that. He is dead physically so I cannot ask him personally.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 14, 2014, 07:43:51 PM

It might work.  I feel still in the dark which historical writings you refer to.  Would you mind creating a list of the writings so I may have a better idea which writings you mean? 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Nah, he expects you to be up-to-date with every region's history and what-not[/b]. He doesn't know that the Christians in Etheopia call Jesus by a different name so the that you had the audacity to confuse the name of his Jesus could be just a different region's name for the Christian Jesus is so stupid it's beneath him. That Americans call him Jesus but in Mexico they call him, (as pronounced) Hay-Soos. For you to ask "is this the same Jesus?" and not already know the answer, etc etc.

I guess he's too good and smart for believers too.  &)

Oh, by the way, his inability to communicate clearly? It's our fault.
Really!! You saying you know me and what I think and what I expect make you sound godlike -- does that not jump at you as ESP. Maybe you have this resonating frequency. Do you? Perhaps you ESP out weighs your communication skill? Peace
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 14, 2014, 07:50:11 PM

To be honest we are only doing a lot of nothing here without any progress.

You have summarized the entire field of theology in one sentence.
I was engaged in talking to atheist when I said that. Just in case it slipped you.
What do you know of theology? My understanding of it is that it covers quite a lot for us to become more humane to evolve the frequency of a god like being as God intended so says the theists. What is your take on all its writings relative to the human being and in your opinion who or whom it was meant for if not human teaching human to be more than what we insist on being?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on January 14, 2014, 08:00:33 PM

To be honest we are only doing a lot of nothing here without any progress.

You have summarized the entire field of theology in one sentence.
I was engaged in talking to atheist when I said that. Just in case it slipped you.
What do you know of theology? My understanding of it is that it covers quite a lot for us to become more humane to evolve the frequency of a god like being as God intended so says the theists. What is your take on all its writings relative to the human being and in your opinion who or whom it was meant for if not human teaching human to be more than what we insist on being?
The first book OT was written by a small group of desert dwellers for a small group of desert dwellers, the new book NT was designed by humans in the group of desert dwellers who no longer wanted to follow the first groups rules.

 We see break off sects of all religions. We see moderates,devotes,zealots in all religions also,all fighting over who is RIGHT and who is WRONG....in the SAME religious faction
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Ivellios on January 14, 2014, 08:02:36 PM
Really!!

Quite clear. When OCG asked you an honest question, you bashed him saying that his question brought the discussion to an all time low. You expected him to be up to date in all countries mythologies and historical writings. Asking wouldn't have brought the "discussion to an all time low," unless you already expected to know the answer already. As such, there's only one way to know all the answers already...

Pissing on another believer like that, God must be proud of you.

You saying you know me

nope, don't want to either. non sequitor. All I know about you is from what you post. I can connect the dots.

and what I think and what I expect make you sound godlike -- does that not jump at you as ESP.


You expected OCG to already know the answers. extrapolating from your posts, you seem to imply that if someone's on the same 'frequency' you have full access to each other's minds or something.

Maybe you have this resonating frequency. Do you? Perhaps your ESP out weighs your communication skill? Peace

Still have no idea what you're talking about 'frequency.' When I see frequency, I expect it's measurement to be in Hz. Alternating Current, Central Processing Unit, screen refresh rate, sound, light... but nothing what you're talking about.

ESP? time to bring out the tin foil.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: jdawg70 on January 14, 2014, 08:05:19 PM
I do wish to save souls. But, if people don't want to be saved, it's their choice. You can only tell a person "Don't jump off the bridge!" and give them so many reasons not to jump but the decision to jump is still theirs. If they jump, the best you can say is "Well, i tried."
According to harbinger77[1], this is not the case.  I do not have a choice.

How do I determine which one of you is correct?

As both of you have a habit of referencing the same book (the bible), it may be better if you two hash this out.  I really want to see how the two of you would resolve this disparity.
 1. http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25905.msg595272.html#msg595272
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on January 14, 2014, 08:06:33 PM
The reason as you see it(only an assumption) for God not interacting in modern humanity is Jesus clearing the slate. There is one thing you neglect,this phony's(Jesus) promise to RETURN in the lifetimes of his original followers. They have been waiting 2000 years to ascend to heaven,a short time for this God guy,a long time for his followers.

 When is the frequency (or where) for the return of Jesus?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Ivellios on January 14, 2014, 08:08:19 PM
I do wish to save souls. But, if people don't want to be saved, it's their choice. You can only tell a person "Don't jump off the bridge!" and give them so many reasons not to jump but the decision to jump is still theirs. If they jump, the best you can say is "Well, i tried."
According to harbinger77[1], this is not the case.  I do not have a choice.

How do I determine which one of you is correct?

As both of you have a habit of referencing the same book (the bible), it may be better if you two hash this out.  I really want to see how the two of you would resolve this disparity.
 1. http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25905.msg595272.html#msg595272

He's going to say that Harbinger is following a demon, unknowingly. If only he'd listen to Skeptic's 'truth' he'll be saved. Harbinger may say that Skeptic is the one that's incorrect. Then we'll all see how a perfect god can't help keep his children straight, and why there's 40,000 denominations.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: skeptic54768 on January 14, 2014, 08:24:18 PM
I do wish to save souls. But, if people don't want to be saved, it's their choice. You can only tell a person "Don't jump off the bridge!" and give them so many reasons not to jump but the decision to jump is still theirs. If they jump, the best you can say is "Well, i tried."
According to harbinger77[1], this is not the case.  I do not have a choice.

How do I determine which one of you is correct?

As both of you have a habit of referencing the same book (the bible), it may be better if you two hash this out.  I really want to see how the two of you would resolve this disparity.
 1. http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25905.msg595272.html#msg595272

Either way, the end result is the same. When the end result is the same either way, a debate is pointless.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 14, 2014, 08:37:15 PM
I genuinely have no idea what Jesuis is seeking here.  Do you?
I could answer that. I want to know what you believe and if I could come to believe it too.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 14, 2014, 08:46:29 PM
I genuinely have no idea what Jesuis is seeking here.  Do you?
I could answer that. I want to know what you believe and if I could come to believe it too.

A nice amputee being healed, by prayer, here in the modern documented and verified world would do wonders in that department. I, however, see you as indistinguishable from a store front medium, who tries to say vague and wise sounding things, but is incapable of doing anything that would demonstrate those claims as factual.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 14, 2014, 09:01:27 PM

To be honest we are only doing a lot of nothing here without any progress.

You have summarized the entire field of theology in one sentence.
I was engaged in talking to atheist when I said that. Just in case it slipped you.
What do you know of theology? My understanding of it is that it covers quite a lot for us to become more humane to evolve the frequency of a god like being as God intended so says the theists. What is your take on all its writings relative to the human being and in your opinion who or whom it was meant for if not human teaching human to be more than what we insist on being?
The first book OT was written by a small group of desert dwellers for a small group of desert dwellers, the new book NT was designed by humans in the group of desert dwellers who no longer wanted to follow the first groups rules.

 We see break off sects of all religions. We see moderates,devotes,zealots in all religions also,all fighting over who is RIGHT and who is WRONG....in the SAME religious faction
Yes we see break off sets but why?? Is the breaking off set trying to be a better more humane human being or a less humane human being? Is there something about the humanity that is not being addressed in our observation? In our present time we have religious people breaking off from religion to become what? Following who? What are atheist breaking away from? Are they trying to be better than or worst than what they were before. 

It would be wrong to assumes there is no right and no wrong going on where there is breaking aways. Where humans are concerned there are standards to be followed for a society driven agenda. It is the frequency of the inner evolving humane human being that might be trampled upon as these factions seek power over each other. As for all politics the politicians try to appeal to the humans in their care to their inner emotions for support. For instance would you protect a child from a pedophile? Would that act be more right than the act of the pedophile who is trying to satiate his craving of lust and power over another human being? If the theist corners the moral high ground to protect the child from the immoral man then who protects the immoral man? The breaking away group or the staying group? Why the appeal to the inner humane human being and why are they responding to it? What is the deepest or highest human frequency? Is the the righteousness or the unrighteousness.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 14, 2014, 09:09:37 PM
I genuinely have no idea what Jesuis is seeking here.  Do you?
I could answer that. I want to know what you believe and if I could come to believe it too.

A nice amputee being healed, by prayer, here in the modern documented and verified world would do wonders in that department. I, however, see you as indistinguishable from a store front medium, who tries to say vague and wise sounding things, but is incapable of doing anything that would demonstrate those claims as factual.
You actually do not see me doing anything of the sort but we do know imaginations do play tricks on the individuals and their beliefs. Could the only factual thing you make a claim for be your imagination and its ESP frequency wherein lies a lot of spagetti monsters and pink unicorns? Can one learn something of value from someone who has no values to share?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 14, 2014, 09:16:52 PM

I have a feeling the atheists don't care about our answers.

There's a good reason for that. They are crap. If they weren't crap, we might care.
I do not think answers provided are crap. Either you understand them or you don't. A child may talk to you about the tooth fairy for a reason but crap it is not. But on the other hand your resonating frequency might be a reason for your belief system. It might be all you can see. Was there any worthwhile reason for this post or was it your truth and what you see?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: jynnan tonnix on January 14, 2014, 09:17:40 PM
I do wish to save souls. But, if people don't want to be saved, it's their choice. You can only tell a person "Don't jump off the bridge!" and give them so many reasons not to jump but the decision to jump is still theirs. If they jump, the best you can say is "Well, i tried."
According to harbinger77[1], this is not the case.  I do not have a choice.

How do I determine which one of you is correct?

As both of you have a habit of referencing the same book (the bible), it may be better if you two hash this out.  I really want to see how the two of you would resolve this disparity.
 1. http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25905.msg595272.html#msg595272

Either way, the end result is the same. When the end result is the same either way, a debate is pointless.

I would say that a big point of it, even if we never came to a conclusion, would be to show the way that two theists studying the same text can come up with different interpretations of it. I'm sure each of you would have what you consider solid reasons for believing the things you do. Each of you would probably claim that a careful study of the Bible would reveal truth, God's will, etc. And yet where one came to the conclusion that salvation was a choice, the other would be just as certain that it was preordained.

Even if the "end result is the same", just the fact that your respective understanding is at odds over what would seem to be a most basic tenet of your religion doesn't speak well of this "word of god" being perfect and inerrant.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: OldChurchGuy on January 14, 2014, 09:24:21 PM
Jesuis:

Having followed this thread, I am also at a loss to proclaim I understand the emphasis being placed on frequency or the significance of frequency. 

I have concluded a definition of frequency as the term is being used in this thread is not possible.  Similar to defining Heaven. 

Would be so kind as to provide an example of a successful frequency between two people? 

Would be so kind as to provide an example of a successful frequency between a person and God? 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy




Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: DVZ3 on January 14, 2014, 09:25:49 PM
Jesuis, are you French?

je suis means "I am" or "I follow" in a religious setting in French.  Is it possible some of us are getting lost in translation or...

Maybe you're an out of touch Dennis Quaid fan...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_(film) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_(film))

Edited - Added movie plot wiki
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: skeptic54768 on January 14, 2014, 09:31:07 PM
I do wish to save souls. But, if people don't want to be saved, it's their choice. You can only tell a person "Don't jump off the bridge!" and give them so many reasons not to jump but the decision to jump is still theirs. If they jump, the best you can say is "Well, i tried."
According to harbinger77[1], this is not the case.  I do not have a choice.

How do I determine which one of you is correct?

As both of you have a habit of referencing the same book (the bible), it may be better if you two hash this out.  I really want to see how the two of you would resolve this disparity.
 1. http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25905.msg595272.html#msg595272

Either way, the end result is the same. When the end result is the same either way, a debate is pointless.

I would say that a big point of it, even if we never came to a conclusion, would be to show the way that two theists studying the same text can come up with different interpretations of it. I'm sure each of you would have what you consider solid reasons for believing the things you do. Each of you would probably claim that a careful study of the Bible would reveal truth, God's will, etc. And yet where one came to the conclusion that salvation was a choice, the other would be just as certain that it was preordained.

Even if the "end result is the same", just the fact that your respective understanding is at odds over what would seem to be a most basic tenet of your religion doesn't speak well of this "word of god" being perfect and inerrant.

I am told atheism is a broad brush as well. There's nihilistic atheists, and not nihilistic atheists. There's murdering atheists and non-murdering atheists. There's depressed atheists who think death is better than life. Philosophical differences between atheists. Which atheist is right?

You see how your criticisms apply to atheism too?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: DVZ3 on January 14, 2014, 09:44:06 PM
^^^ True, but only Christians can be fake/lie and potentially become the U.S. president along with any other political position/authority. A person could never declare they were an atheist (even fake liar atheists) and have a chance at the U.S. presidency let alone a powerful political authority.

It would seem to me though that most atheists, at least on this forum, are more informed on things but yet... Hmmm
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 14, 2014, 09:47:08 PM
I genuinely have no idea what Jesuis is seeking here.  Do you?
I could answer that. I want to know what you believe and if I could come to believe it too.

I can't speak for Quesi, but I believe that beating around the bush is the epitome of human communication. Which means that you and I would see eye to eye if weren't for all the frickin' leaves.

You can not possibly be for real. The IQ chart doesn't go that low.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: jynnan tonnix on January 14, 2014, 09:48:53 PM
From Skeptic:


Quote
I am told atheism is a broad brush as well. There's nihilistic atheists, and not nihilistic atheists. There's murdering atheists and non-murdering atheists. There's depressed atheists who think death is better than life. Philosophical differences between atheists. Which atheist is right?

You see how your criticisms apply to atheism too?



However, atheists are not getting all their disparate viewpoints  by examining a single, ancient volume which claims to contain all the answers.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: jaimehlers on January 14, 2014, 09:57:12 PM
I am told atheism is a broad brush as well. There's nihilistic atheists, and not nihilistic atheists. There's murdering atheists and non-murdering atheists. There's depressed atheists who think death is better than life. Philosophical differences between atheists. Which atheist is right?
Given that none of them argue for the existence of supernatural deities, I'd say this point is totally irrelevant.

The thing that you just don't get is that atheists don't have to try to prove which one of them is right, the way many theists do, including the majority of Christians.  They just have to show that a philosophy works well to advance human civilization and improve people's lives.  Christians, who obsess over an afterlife which is no more proven than Hindu reincarnation, often don't care about the world they leave behind - just the one they think they'll get after they die.

Quote from: skeptic54768
You see how your criticisms apply to atheism too?
The only thing I see is yet another attempt by you to 'prove' that atheism is no different than theism, except you can only do it using sophistry.  And it isn't even effective sophistry, at that.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 14, 2014, 10:01:13 PM
I am told atheism is a broad brush as well. There's nihilistic atheists, and not nihilistic atheists. There's murdering atheists and non-murdering atheists. There's depressed atheists who think death is better than life. Philosophical differences between atheists. Which atheist is right?
You are missing a major point with the definition of "atheist".
The only thing which an atheist has, is a disbelief in a deity.

All other things that an atheist may have come from other sources, which are irrelevant in this case, as a theist can have said sources just as (if not more) frequently.
Shit, now i am talking about frequency.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Hatter23 on January 14, 2014, 10:07:46 PM
but the question that's on my mind is "Kenneth, what is the frequency?" Maybe I can beat the answer out of Dan Rather.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 14, 2014, 10:09:30 PM
Perhaps atheists need to read theist answers in random frequencies to penetrate the shielded theistic armor.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: jdawg70 on January 14, 2014, 11:25:36 PM
According to harbinger77[1], this is not the case.  I do not have a choice.

How do I determine which one of you is correct?

As both of you have a habit of referencing the same book (the bible), it may be better if you two hash this out.  I really want to see how the two of you would resolve this disparity.
 1. http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25905.msg595272.html#msg595272

Either way, the end result is the same. When the end result is the same either way, a debate is pointless.
The end result is the same?

I don't see how you can come to that conclusion.  Well, if harbinger77 is right, then yes, the conclusion is what it is and there is nothing you or anyone else can do about it.  If you are not chosen, then you are wasting your time - you're already screwed, and any sort of claim of yours that involves "in order to be saved, you must do x, because god said so" is out the damn window.  "God says you shouldn't eat meat on Fridays.  God says you shouldn't watch the naked peoples.  God says you shouldn't kill someone. "  So f**king what?  God clearly does not give a s**t about what you do.  Regardless of what you do, god will look at you - judge you - evaluate you - in the exact same way.  He knew, since before the Fall, exactly how he perceives, judges, understands, empathizes, and knows you.  You can't please god, he is already pleased or displeased with you.  You have no choice in the matter.

If you are right, then harbinger77 is a potentially lost soul.  If he is currently lost, he will have no idea how to be saved.  Any discrepancies call into question his state of salvation, right?  Unless you can claim to knew for certain that he is spreading every aspect of what entails salvation to everyone he meets - I suppose if you had the same capacity of judgment as god you could claim that, but otherwise that seems rather...presumptuous on your part?  This is his soul, the part of him the will last for all eternity.  You want to risk that just because you're too lazy to get into a little argument?

Come on now.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: jdawg70 on January 14, 2014, 11:39:53 PM
I am told atheism is a broad brush as well. There's nihilistic atheists, and not nihilistic atheists. There's murdering atheists and non-murdering atheists. There's depressed atheists who think death is better than life. Philosophical differences between atheists. Which atheist is right?
Right about what exactly?  That they agree with the following:

If I were to ask any peer in this same group called atheist the question "do you believe that god exists", the answer would not be yes.

That is all that is required.

Edit:
Bolding fixed.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 14, 2014, 11:49:48 PM
As a fellow theist, I understand the frustration some are having with you and Jesuis.  Having followed this thread, I am also at a loss to proclaim I understand the emphasis being placed on frequency or the significance of frequency. 

I have concluded a definition of frequency as the term is being used in this thread is not possible.  Similar to defining Heaven. 

Perhaps you or Jesuis or both would be so kind as to provide an example of a successful frequency between two people? 

Would you also provide an example of a successful frequency between a person and God? 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
The theory of Everything is frequency based.  Theists would say they knew that already. "In the beginning was the Word(Frequency) and the word was with God(frequency) and the word was God (Thus all is Frequency)"
Scientists tell us that Our body mechanism and everything else is frequency based. Hence our consciousness and persona are frequencies if we are to believe the scientists or the theists.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 14, 2014, 11:53:05 PM
The theory of Everything is frequency based.  Theists would say they knew that already. "In the beginning was the Word(Frequency) and the word was with God(frequency) and the word was God (Thus all is Frequency)"
Scientists tell us that Our body mechanism and everything else is frequency based. Hence our consciousness and persona are frequencies if we are to believe the scientists or the theists.

What a ridiculous claim, i have not seen a single scientific paper than says such a thing.

Link a source. Now.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: magicmiles on January 14, 2014, 11:57:41 PM
If it helps, I found this thread which discussed the frequency of humans.

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=231156

This discussion is shitting me to tears.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Traveler on January 14, 2014, 11:58:21 PM
What A&A said. There is no accepted theory of everything. It is a hypothetical concept. As for frequency, you are still not making any sense.

Your posts indicate two possibilities to me. You sound like you are either nuts or a troll. Which is it?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Nam on January 14, 2014, 11:59:09 PM
If it helps, I found this thread which discussed the frequency of humans.

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=231156

This discussion is shitting me to tears.

Umm... could you not fling it my way as you wipe your eyes--i just took a shower.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 15, 2014, 12:00:34 AM
Your posts indicate two possibilities to me. You sound like you are either nuts or a troll. Which is it?

Simple, a nutty troll.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 15, 2014, 12:08:44 AM
I am told atheism is a broad brush as well. There's nihilistic atheists, and not nihilistic atheists. There's murdering atheists and non-murdering atheists. There's depressed atheists who think death is better than life. Philosophical differences between atheists. Which atheist is right?
Right about what exactly?  That they agree with the following:

If I were to ask any peer in this same group called atheist the question "do you believe that god exists", the answer would not be yes.

That is all that is required.

Edit:
Bolding fixed.
Yes but it lack various things to make it an authority.
Science and scientists demand by definition any proposal proposed to have an authority proposing hypothesis method and proof or evidence. We know that this process to gives positive results for advancement of humanity?
Peer reviewed by other such scientists looking at the proposals being put forward by some individual creating the belief system. Who are the authoritative atheists of your belief system?  Some say Darwin but he was a bit scared of his wife. Does not do very well for many to follow him. or the teenager rejecting their religion based on what? Where is the authority that leads this.

Theism on the other hand -results in religion of followers and believers and creates a history of mankind following it by the authority. Judaism - Authority Moses, : Christianity -Authority Jesus, : Buddhism - Authority Buddha. Sikhism - Authority the Ten Gurus. Jainism - Authority Mahavira etc etc. Theism has a guiding moral human authority. Atheism -- lacks the first principle of science. Authority.

You would have to do a lot better than that to convince me you have found a truth to something scientific in your belief system but I am willing to learn what truths you may have. It would be a great blessing for me.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 15, 2014, 12:13:56 AM
I am still awaiting sources for your previous claims, and your new one.
*tick, tock, tick*
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 15, 2014, 12:20:26 AM
The theory of Everything is frequency based.  Theists would say they knew that already. "In the beginning was the Word(Frequency) and the word was with God(frequency) and the word was God (Thus all is Frequency)"
Scientists tell us that Our body mechanism and everything else is frequency based. Hence our consciousness and persona are frequencies if we are to believe the scientists or the theists.

What a ridiculous claim, i have not seen a single scientific paper than says such a thing.

Link a source. Now.
I am not here to give you links. Nor provide you with scientific papers. Science demands we look at the evidence. The theory of everything is a proposal on frequencies. You say it does not exist but that wuld be like telling me you do not exist. The theory covers everything vibrating.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 15, 2014, 12:22:27 AM
I am not here to give you links. Nor provide you with scientific papers. Science demands we look at the evidence. The theory of everything is a proposal on frequencies. You say it does not exist but that wuld be like telling me you do not exist. The theory covers everything vibrating.

So you are refusing to give a source?

Fine by me, enjoy more reports and -1's.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 15, 2014, 12:26:31 AM
What A&A said. There is no accepted theory of everything. It is a hypothetical concept. As for frequency, you are still not making any sense.

Your posts indicate two possibilities to me. You sound like you are either nuts or a troll. Which is it?
You could try looking it up in a Webster Dictionary and tell me what it says. It is a very common practice. But calling me a troll because you feel threatened or something is a load of old puddles. I did not create the ToE scientists did. I am just discussing that relative to the Theists. Why are you calling me nuts?? Does it go with your thinking and your persona that humans beings are nuts? Who taught you that?
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Ivellios on January 15, 2014, 12:30:22 AM

Yes but it lack various things to make it an authority.
Science and scientists demand by definition any proposal proposed to have an authority proposing hypothesis method and proof or evidence. We know that this process to gives positive results for advancement of humanity?
Peer reviewed by other such scientists looking at the proposals being put forward by some individual creating the belief system. Who are the authoritative atheists of your belief system?  Some say Darwin but he was a bit scared of his wife. Does not do very well for many to follow him. or the teenager rejecting their religion based on what? Where is the authority that leads this.

Theism on the other hand -results in religion of followers and believers and creates a history of mankind following it by the authority. Judaism - Authority Moses, : Christianity -Authority Jesus, : Buddhism - Authority Buddha. Sikhism - Authority the Ten Gurus. Jainism - Authority Mahavira etc etc. Theism has a guiding moral human authority. Atheism -- lacks the first principle of science. Authority.

You would have to do a lot better than that to convince me you have found a truth to something scientific in your belief system but I am willing to learn what truths you may have. It would be a great blessing for me.

That's because you do not understand what Atheism is.

Believer in God(s) = Theist
Does not believe in Gods = Atheist

Do you believe in Leprechauns?
yes? You're a Leprechaunist
no? Aleprechaunist

What "authority" do you need to decide that you do not believe in leprechauns? Who is the authority of the Aleprechaunism Religion? What is the Aleprechaunist Doctrine?

?

Nada! Nothing! Nanimo! Zilch!

< Also, see how silly that sounds, an Aleprechaunism Doctrine/Religion? Those require believing in something. No belief, no religion/doctrine.

Just as it is with Aleprechaunism, is as it is with Atheism. It is simply a lack of belief in any god.

Provided that you are an Aleprechaunist: What do you share with the Billions of people that are also Aleprechaunists? A lack of belief in leprechauns? Correct. Anything else? Just simply that you do not believe in leprechauns.

You do not believe, simply because you do not believe. If you ever found one or that pot of gold, maybe there would be enough evidence for you then, but not now.

If you are a Leprechaunist, well, replace 'Leprechaun' with something that you do not believe in like: vampires, werewolves, Harpies, Oni, Griffons, Bigfoot, Loch Ness Monster, or anything else out there that you do not believe in.

Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 15, 2014, 12:32:08 AM
Why are you calling me nuts?? Does it go with your thinking and your persona that humans beings are nuts? Who taught you that?

We are calling you nuts because out of every one of us, with all our knowledge, ranging from biology to theology, we have not heard a single thing that you claim to exist.

The fact that none of us have a clue as to what your garble is intended on proving, and that you do not link a single source, makes you look like a troll, or a nutter.

Choose your pick.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 15, 2014, 12:35:19 AM
I am not here to give you links. Nor provide you with scientific papers. Science demands we look at the evidence. The theory of everything is a proposal on frequencies. You say it does not exist but that wuld be like telling me you do not exist. The theory covers everything vibrating.

So you are refusing to give a source?

Fine by me, enjoy more reports and -1's.
What sources have you provided for what you claim to know? Is what you know true? Who has accepted this truth? I have not seen it for your belief system that is for sure. Reports and -1s might be given out but the authority might simple be telling me "I am talking out of my ass" Does that actually mean he is right or you are right? Can my ass talk? Delusional or what?

I could just be persona a frequency of the individual. I am not afraid but you seem to want to make me afraid or killed off - I now should feel threatened by you - could this be a form of your insecurity? The force might be strong in this one. Maybe it is the medioclorins acting up. I want to go to the dark side but I am afraid and have mommy issues. Peace be unto you - inner peace - inner peace. Master oogway.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 15, 2014, 12:41:05 AM
What sources have you provided for what you claim to know? Is what you know true? Who has accepted this truth? I have not seen it for your belief system that is for sure. Reports and -1s might be given out but the authority might simple be telling me "I am talking out of my ass" Does that actually mean he is right or you are right? Can my ass talk? Delusional or what?

The point is that i have not made a claim, other than the claim that your arguments are crap, which until you find a source, holds firmly.

The fact that the admins here say that you are "talking out of your ass" shows how retarded your claims are, I can quite assure you that the Admins here are some of the brighter bulbs in the closet.

I could just be persona a frequency of the individual. I am not afraid but you seem to want to make me afraid or killed off - I now should feel threatened by you - could this be a form of your insecurity? The force might be strong in this one. Maybe it is the medioclorins acting up. I want to go to the dark side but I am afraid and have mommy issues. Peace be unto you - inner peace - inner peace. Master oogway.

(http://www.tikihumor.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/37/2012/09/captain-picard-well-fuck-you-too-500x381.jpg)
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 15, 2014, 01:02:09 AM
Why are you calling me nuts?? Does it go with your thinking and your persona that humans beings are nuts? Who taught you that?

We are calling you nuts because out of every one of us, with all our knowledge, ranging from biology to theology, we have not heard a single thing that you claim to exist.


The fact that none of us have a clue as to what your garble is intended on proving, and that you do not link a single source, makes you look like a troll, or a nutter.

Choose your pick.
Yes I did -- "We" "Exist" right here right now in the present moment. We are discussing our beliefs born out of our journey of life. We were born we will die all of it true and real. The rest is belief.
ie
Theists say there is a God who is responsible for all this because they know - I did not get to ask them for their papers or their science. But they did not shy down to the authority of the day nor accept what the general religion of the said was true. They were reformers of the believers. IMO if they are correct whatever we do where ever we go the final of the gathering of all knowledge infinite as it may seem - will either prove they were right or wrong. Does it matter to me - well of course - only the truth will do. We might be gods by then but that was the original intent of the theists.

Atheists claim there is no God and have not provided any evidence for their authority. I have not asked for it either. Nor expect them to be able to provide any.

Theists say everything was created by God.
Atheists have not said what or who created anything - nothing they will hold up as true and finite and will never change.

I proposed that scientists have created a theory of everything out of their understanding of frequencies. It is up for discussion not reporting or banning because of your fears nor do I care if I ask you for something that if you have not get up and get it for me that I am so insecure in my belief that I would suggest troll or nutter.  I am not a child to run willy nilly at your commands I will expect you to respond in a humane way but that seems hard to come by.

If I were banned I have already said - the administrator has been so kind to think me suffering of Illusions of Grandeur - in my thoughts, he thought Jesus held a very high place for knowing God twas more of a Gold star or a +5 than an insult.  Banning me for thinking he might be right shows the level of your persona. Roman like even. Beggars belief in insecurity. I have no papers to provide for anyone. Do you have one that contains any truths. It would be a blessing for me. Peace - Inner peace.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: Jesuis on January 15, 2014, 01:13:33 AM
What sources have you provided for what you claim to know? Is what you know true? Who has accepted this truth? I have not seen it for your belief system that is for sure. Reports and -1s might be given out but the authority might simple be telling me "I am talking out of my ass" Does that actually mean he is right or you are right? Can my ass talk? Delusional or what?

The point is that i have not made a claim, other than the claim that your arguments are crap, which until you find a source, holds firmly.

The fact that the admins here say that you are "talking out of your ass" shows how retarded your claims are, I can quite assure you that the Admins here are some of the brighter bulbs in the closet.

I could just be persona a frequency of the individual. I am not afraid but you seem to want to make me afraid or killed off - I now should feel threatened by you - could this be a form of your insecurity? The force might be strong in this one. Maybe it is the medioclorins acting up. I want to go to the dark side but I am afraid and have mommy issues. Peace be unto you - inner peace - inner peace. Master oogway.

(http://www.tikihumor.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/37/2012/09/captain-picard-well-fuck-you-too-500x381.jpg)
What is your source for atheism? I will wait for your paper otherwise your are what you are by what you say and what you do. I can see your picture saying exactly what you reflect by way of persona. Was it necessary? Do you feel better?

From what I understand - The theory of Everything does support my questions on frequency. I make no claims to its veracity. Scientists do and are battling it out with themselves. How do I know I this - I can see and hear signals between these visible and audible range. They told me so while I was growing up - it is real? These frequencies? Ask the scientists for their papers. I own none of them so I cannot give them to you. It would be a bit daft of me to claim their work and give it to you.

However, I know I exist and I have no clue if what I see hear or experience via my senses to be real. I do not have any papers to support any of that nor can I see you if you were seeable but scientists do know these things.  You can ask them for it if you need to verify what they have said or claimed.
Peace.
Title: Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 15, 2014, 01:15:15 AM
The theory of Everything is frequency based.  Theists would say they knew that already. "In the beginning was the Word(Frequency) and the word was with God(frequency) and the word was God (Thus all is Frequency)"
Scientists tell us that Our body mechanism and everything else is frequency based. Hence our consciousness and persona are frequencies if we are to believe the scientists or the theists.