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Main Discussion Zone => General Religious Discussion => Topic started by: junebug72 on June 23, 2013, 05:47:56 AM

Title: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on June 23, 2013, 05:47:56 AM
The bible really is a disgrace, a con, designed to control a petty and cruel civilization.  It uses fear and manipulation to accomplish the goal of enslaving women, discriminating homosexuality, and provide consequences for violence.  While their reasons seem somewhat noble, after 6000 years it is in dire need of an upgrade. 

My biggest problem with the book is the cruel, angry, and jealous God it portrays.  That the Christian society holds it sacred and will say just about anything to avoid admitting it's flaws.  They carry on with the cruelty of the old testament even when it goes against what Jesus taught, especially what Jesus taught us about judging and loving. 

There are some dark times in the history of Christianity like slavery, prejudice, beheading for blasphemy, and burning women at the stake, all justified by the bible.

I think the book should be banned.

As a believer in Intelligent Design, I believe in God but not the evil book.  It can be held somewhat responsible for the atheistic attitude, as well as, the deaths of millions.

It does get better in the new testament.  My interpretation of what Jesus taught is that he wanted us to see the flaws.  It was old testament values held by scribes and pharisees that hung an innocent man on the cross.  History is violent.  We are fortunate now to live where we are free to decide for ourselves w/o fear of government violence against us.  That is why the spiritual but not religious population is growing.  We see the contradiction of love throughout the OT and see the dramatic shift in the new.

Most importantly, science has discovered truths about our formation that really contradicts Genesis.  I remember being 11-12 years old and asking myself, why aren't dinosaurs mentioned in the bible?  Then there is the age of the planet.  It is obvious that we are much older than 6013 years old. 

God can exist without the bible.  I would bet that since it's origin God has been hurt by it's authors.  I believe that God has given us the knowledge to revoke that nasty book of lies so that we can know of the love God has for us all.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on June 23, 2013, 05:51:25 AM
I meant to post under biblical contradictions.  Will a mod move it there for me Please?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: One Above All on June 23, 2013, 07:48:17 AM
It can be held somewhat responsible for the atheistic attitude
<snip>

I certainly hope you're not stereotyping atheists. There is no "atheistic attitude".
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on June 23, 2013, 08:15:44 AM
It can be held somewhat responsible for the atheistic attitude
<snip>

I certainly hope you're not stereotyping atheists. There is no "atheistic attitude".

Not my intention at all One.  I simply mean non belief.  Atheism is defined as non belief in gods.  :?  All atheist do not believe in God.  Stereotyping would be to say they are all nice because some are nice.  At least that's how Webster defines the word-stereotype.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: The Gawd on June 23, 2013, 08:20:33 AM
JB, I feel you are starting to understand many of our arguments now even though you still hold your god belief.

I have asked you this numerous times and you still ignore it.

If you do not believe in the bible, WHERE did you get your Jesus belief from? This is important.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: One Above All on June 23, 2013, 08:27:40 AM
Not my intention at all One.  I simply mean non belief.  Atheism is defined as non belief in gods.  :?  All atheist do not believe in God.

Your wording implied otherwise, since an "attitude" is a series of behaviors[1].
 1. Emphasis on the plural.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on June 23, 2013, 10:10:57 AM
JB, I feel you are starting to understand many of our arguments now even though you still hold your god belief.

I have asked you this numerous times and you still ignore it.

If you do not believe in the bible, WHERE did you get your Jesus belief from? This is important.

History.  I find historical significance from the bible not truths about God.  I have answered this question several times.  Jesus explains Christianity. I believe the Hebrews were enslaved by the Egyptians, I believe that there were wars with Persia, I believe they hung a man named Jesus on the cross for no good reason.  I believe they had Kings named Solomon and David.  I believe they were under Roman Government during the time of Christ.  I believe they thought they knew God and kept a record of events.

I really hope this satisfies your inquisition. Most historians agree that Jesus was here; it is his divinity that can be scrutinized more so than his existence. 
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: One Above All on June 23, 2013, 10:14:26 AM
Most historians agree that Jesus was here

Source?
EDIT: Assuming you can post a reliable source, note that just because a lot of authorities believe in something doesn't make it true. Argumentum ad verecundiam.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on June 23, 2013, 10:29:42 AM
Most historians agree that Jesus was here

Source?

There are plenty, here's one:http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/jesus/reallyknow.html,

This is not a thread to debate the existence of Jesus.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: The Gawd on June 23, 2013, 10:41:15 AM
Most historians agree that Jesus was here

Source?

There are plenty, here's one:http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/jesus/reallyknow.html,

This is not a thread to debate the existence of Jesus.
Youre right, it is not about the existence of Jesus, BUT it is about the reliability of the bible, which is where Jesus belief comes from. In one breath you berate the bible calling it unreliable, in the next breath you believe it enough to have a belief in Jesus. I hope you can see the problem with that. Now I agree with you, the bible is a worthless book, but it raises the question of why do you believe portions of it knowing that it is rubbish from unreliable sources?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Willie on June 23, 2013, 11:29:29 AM
Wow, Junebug. You're starting to sound like Thomas Paine.

Quote from: Thomas Paine, from The Age of Reason
The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion. It has been the most destructive to the peace of man since man began to exist. Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses, who gave an order to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and then rape the daughters. One of the most horrible atrocities found in the literature of any nation. I would not dishonor my Creator's name by attaching it to this filthy book.

Quote from: Thomas Paine,  Letter to William Duane, April 23, 1806
As to the book called the Bible, it is blasphemy to call it the Word of God. It is a book of lies and contradictions, and a history of bad times and bad men. There are but a few good characters in the whole book.

Quote from: Thomas Paine, from The Age of Reason
Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.

Quote from: Thomas Paine, from The Age of Reason
Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. Too absurd for belief, too impossible to convince, and too inconsistent for practice, it renders the heart torpid or produces only atheists or fanatics. As an engine of power, it serves the purpose of despotism, and as a means of wealth, the avarice of priests, but so far as respects the good of man in general it leads to nothing here or hereafter.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on June 23, 2013, 11:36:07 AM
Thanks Willie.  Sounds like a wise man and so do you. ;)
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: wheels5894 on June 23, 2013, 12:18:26 PM
It sounds, June as though you could include the Qur'an in what you say as it has all the characteristics of the bible. Holy Books of the time seem to have been there mainly to hold the population in fear and to justify violence against others.

Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on June 23, 2013, 12:24:22 PM
It sounds, June as though you could include the Qur'an in what you say as it has all the characteristics of the bible. Holy Books of the time seem to have been there mainly to hold the population in fear and to justify violence against others.

Isn't Moses part of Qur'an as well?  Thanks for adding it.  I should have titled it Moses is a disgrace to God, but that really narrows the idea.  I'm going to have to change my quote now. 
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Willie on June 23, 2013, 12:27:15 PM
Thanks Willie.  Sounds like a wise man and so do you. ;)

Paine's book "Age of Reason" is a very good read. And, being over 200 years old, it is public domain so you can read it online for free, and it doesn't cost much for a Kindle edition or a printed copy. It exposes some philosophy of one of our founding fathers that the "this is a Christian nation" claimants would prefer that no one know about. It would be interesting to see how the religious right would react if this book were to be included as required reading for U.S. History in the public high schools. On the one hand, it is very contradictory to both their religious beliefs and their political agenda. But on the other hand, it is an original work by one of our founding fathers, and is very relevant to the enlightenment thinking that was prevalent among nearly all of the founders. They could not credibly argue against it's historical relevance, and it would be very hard for them to raise a stink about it without making it plainly and publicly obvious that it is actually them, and not their opponents, who are trying to indoctrinate our youth with politically and religiously motivated revisionist history. You just can't get any less "revisionist" than original works by the founders themselves, except by trying to suppress some of them.

I think every American should read "Age of Reason". Many, and perhaps even most, will not agree with Paine's ideas, but at least they would be better equipped to recognize the lies and the systematic manipulation and indoctrination that is being pushed upon themselves and their children.

http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/index.htm

I also recommend watching "The Revisionaries". A documentary about the efforts far right members of the Texas Board of Education to inject a right wing slant into public school curricula. If you have Netflix, you can stream it.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on June 23, 2013, 12:46:47 PM
Thanks Willie.  Sounds like a wise man and so do you. ;)

Paine's book "Age of Reason" is a very good read. And, being over 200 years old, it is public domain so you can read it online for free, and it doesn't cost much for a Kindle edition or a printed copy. It exposes some philosophy of one of our founding fathers that the "this is a Christian nation" claimants would prefer that no one know about. It would be interesting to see how the religious right would react if this book were to be included as required reading for U.S. History in the public high schools. On the one hand, it is very contradictory to both their religious beliefs and their political agenda. But on the other hand, it is an original work by one of our founding fathers, and is very relevant to the enlightenment thinking that was prevalent among nearly all of the founders. They could not credibly argue against it's historical relevance, and it would be very hard for them to raise a stink about it without making it plainly and publicly obvious that it is actually them, and not their opponents, who are trying to indoctrinate our youth with politically and religiously motivated revisionist history. You just can't get any less "revisionist" than original works by the founders themselves, except by trying to suppress some of them.

I think every American should read "Age of Reason". Many, and perhaps even most, will not agree with Paine's ideas, but at least they would be better equipped to recognize the lies and the systematic manipulation and indoctrination that is being pushed upon themselves and their children.

http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/index.htm

I also recommend watching "The Revisionaries". A documentary about the efforts far right members of the Texas Board of Education to inject a right wing slant into public school curricula. If you have Netflix, you can stream it.

I've bookmarked his website.  They have a great compilation of his works there.  I've just begun Age of Reason, and so far this is exactly how I feel about religion.  I now have another historical figure to look up to.  I can not thank you enough for introducing me to his work.

I agree his historical importance to this country seems like something that should be taught in schools.  I don't think matters concerning God or religion should be though, but that's me.

I've got to take a walk. ;D
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Whateverman on June 23, 2013, 12:58:15 PM
I think the book should be banned.
As someone who rejects the divinity of the Bible, I can't disagree with this more strongly.

First and foremost, the book plays a significant anthropological role in the history of modern human civilization.  Anyone wanting to understand the state of humankind in the 21st century would need to have some minimal understanding of what the Bible claims, and where human society has placed it in relation to its understanding of the world.

I would reject the banning of Mein Kampf for similar reasons, even though it has played a much smaller role.

Secondly, banning a book is a sure way to increase its popularity.  Religious fundamentalism would skyrocket...

edit: grammar, emphasis
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: median on June 23, 2013, 02:48:37 PM
As someone who rejects the divinity of the Bible, I can't disagree with this more strongly.

First and foremost, the book plays a significant anthropological role in the history of modern human civilization.  Anyone wanting to understand the state of humankind in the 21st century would need to have some minimal understanding of what the Bible claims, and where human society has placed it in relation to its understanding of the world.

I would reject the banning of Mein Kampf for similar reasons, even though it has played a much smaller role.

Secondly, banning a book is a sure way to increase its popularity.  Religious fundamentalism would skyrocket...

edit: grammar, emphasis

I actually agree that we should not ban the book (or nearly any book for that matter - and I say "any" b/c it may be a matter of national security to ban one, but that's another topic).

However, whether or not the bible "plays a significant role" in human history says absolutely nothing as to whether it's truth claims are true.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on June 23, 2013, 04:16:32 PM
This expresses my opinion on banning books...

"The Bebelplatz is known as the site of the infamous Nazi book burning ceremony held in the evening of May 10, 1933 by members of the SA ("brownshirts"), SS, Nazi students and Hitler Youth groups, on the instigation of Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels. They burned around 20,000 books, including works by Thomas Mann, Erich Maria Remarque, Heinrich Heine, Karl Marx and many other authors.
Some days earlier, on May 6, the students had also dragged the contents library of the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft into the square, burning them on May 10.
Today a memorial by Micha Ullman consisting of a glass plate set into the cobbles, giving a view of empty bookcases, commemorates the book burning. Furthermore, a line of Heinrich Heine from his play, Almansor (1821), is engraved on a plaque inset in the square: "Das war ein Vorspiel nur, dort wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man am Ende auch Menschen." (in English: "Where they burn books, they will in the end also burn people").[1] Students at Humboldt University hold a book sale in the square every year to mark the anniversary."  from wikipedia  (bold mine)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Bebelplatz_Night_of_Shame_Monument.jpg/220px-Bebelplatz_Night_of_Shame_Monument.jpg

I got to see this in person when I was there on a concert tour back in 1998.  It is very moving.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on June 23, 2013, 04:26:23 PM
That was my bad. I shouldn't have said ban the bible.  I guess what I really want is for people to quit claiming it's God's word.  There is no proof of that.  As Thomas Paine puts it; it's hearsay. 
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on June 23, 2013, 05:36:56 PM
Most historians agree that Jesus was here

Source?

There are plenty, here's one:http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/jesus/reallyknow.html,

This is not a thread to debate the existence of Jesus.
Youre right, it is not about the existence of Jesus, BUT it is about the reliability of the bible, which is where Jesus belief comes from. In one breath you berate the bible calling it unreliable, in the next breath you believe it enough to have a belief in Jesus. I hope you can see the problem with that. Now I agree with you, the bible is a worthless book, but it raises the question of why do you believe portions of it knowing that it is rubbish from unreliable sources?

This has nothing to do with the topic.  It is possible that Jesus existed.  It would not surprise me if he didn't.  Do you not believe there were ancient Kings called Solomon or David?  Do you believe Abraham and Moses existed?  I did not claim the book a lie I called it a disgrace to God.  I did not claim that there is no historical accuracy.  The likelihood of a man named Jesus is good, IMO. 

Honestly Jesus is like the hero to me.  His sacrifice magnified if he was just a man.  Maybe it's a fear embedded in me from childhood brainwashing, IDK.  If it was nothing but BS I would think the people of the time would not have bought the story at all and Christianity would not be the most popular religion in the world. 

I hate to cut this short but I got to run an errand.     
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: The Gawd on June 23, 2013, 06:22:47 PM
This has nothing to do with the topic.  It is possible that Jesus existed.  It would not surprise me if he didn't.  Do you not believe there were ancient Kings called Solomon or David?  Do you believe Abraham and Moses existed?  I did not claim the book a lie I called it a disgrace to God.  I did not claim that there is no historical accuracy.  The likelihood of a man named Jesus is good, IMO. 

Honestly Jesus is like the hero to me.  His sacrifice magnified if he was just a man.  Maybe it's a fear embedded in me from childhood brainwashing, IDK.  If it was nothing but BS I would think the people of the time would not have bought the story at all and Christianity would not be the most popular religion in the world. 

I hate to cut this short but I got to run an errand.   
Thank you.

This absolutely does have to do with the topic. It has to do with claims in the book you call disgraceful, but is literally the only the thing suggesting this god that you believe in, and his son exist. And even if you want to stick to the topic strictly, even in the story book the "sacrifice" is one of the more disgusting parts of the entire myth. What else would you call human sacrifice? Especially since it, according to the book, was only necessary due to yahweh's inability to be forgiving.

It was not believed by the people of the time, even in the book itself. The people who supposedly witnessed Jesus put him to death and did not believe what he was preaching. Christianity was a fledgling cult until Constantine promoted it by force nearly three centuries after the fact... conveniently after anyone alive at the time of this supposed Jesus wouldve been dead and no one could refute it.

Furthermore, in other disgraceful books. You can see how clearly false books can gain a large following by looking at Mormons.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: William on June 23, 2013, 07:55:02 PM
Maybe it's a fear embedded in me from childhood brainwashing, IDK.  If it was nothing but BS I would think the people of the time would not have bought the story at all and Christianity would not be the most popular religion in the world. 
(my bold)

Junebug72, I think you actually do know the truth of how religion gets knitted into a population, multiplies and persists through generations  ;) 

To be successful a scam needs to have elements that people find attractive - to suck them in - and even better if they want others (including their children) to believe as well. 

The Christian meme is highly evolved - parts that didn't work so well were jettisoned or changed throughout the history of the faith - the story has acquired powerful mechanisms of guilt and fear that trap children early in a way they find difficult to shed beliefs as adults even in the face of their realisation they've been conned by words in a silly old book.

If the bible hadn't been locked down in the canon it would have morphed much more by now - probably it would absorb some scientific knowledge for credibility and be cleansed of some contradictions.  But even though it's locked down it's constantly being re-translated and re-interpreted by different sects who don't like what they see in earlier versions.

Religion is a sophisticated scam that benefits clergy on this earth during their lifetimes .... think about that  :police:

There is nothing in the bible that is good or moral that wouldn't be good or moral without the bible.  But there is plenty that is rotten and bad only because of the bible - basically the same for other ancient text-based religions.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on June 23, 2013, 08:54:47 PM
The bible really is a disgrace, a con, designed to control a petty and cruel civilization.  It uses fear and manipulation to accomplish the goal of enslaving women, discriminating homosexuality, and provide consequences for violence.  While their reasons seem somewhat noble, after 6000 years it is in dire need of an upgrade. 

My biggest problem with the book is the cruel, angry, and jealous God it portrays.  That the Christian society holds it sacred and will say just about anything to avoid admitting it's flaws.  They carry on with the cruelty of the old testament even when it goes against what Jesus taught, especially what Jesus taught us about judging and loving. 

There are some dark times in the history of Christianity like slavery, prejudice, beheading for blasphemy, and burning women at the stake, all justified by the bible.

I think the book should be banned.

As a believer in Intelligent Design, I believe in God but not the evil book.  It can be held somewhat responsible for the atheistic attitude, as well as, the deaths of millions.

It does get better in the new testament.  My interpretation of what Jesus taught is that he wanted us to see the flaws.  It was old testament values held by scribes and pharisees that hung an innocent man on the cross.  History is violent.  We are fortunate now to live where we are free to decide for ourselves w/o fear of government violence against us.  That is why the spiritual but not religious population is growing.  We see the contradiction of love throughout the OT and see the dramatic shift in the new.

Most importantly, science has discovered truths about our formation that really contradicts Genesis.  I remember being 11-12 years old and asking myself, why aren't dinosaurs mentioned in the bible?  Then there is the age of the planet.  It is obvious that we are much older than 6013 years old. 

God can exist without the bible.  I would bet that since it's origin God has been hurt by it's authors.  I believe that God has given us the knowledge to revoke that nasty book of lies so that we can know of the love God has for us all.

Cherry-picking Jesus.

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Add Homonym on June 23, 2013, 10:42:41 PM

This is not a thread to debate the existence of Jesus.

No, but you said that Jesus thought the prior OT was barbaric, and was attempting to highlight the errors in it.

The message of Jesus is so confused that nobody can really tell what he expected of his followers.

Paul says his crucifixion releases us from sin.
Matthew quotes him as saying that we should live feral, in the environment, with no wealth, like Lilies and birds, who do not need barns. (Matt 6)
He is quoted in the gospel of Thomas, saying a load of other shit
In Luke, he says the Kingdom will not be found by inspection, but is within you, whereas, he berates Sadducees for not believing in the resurrection.
He tells others that the end of the word is coming within their generation.
After telling a ruler to give his wealth away, he then tells his followers that they don't need to.
In the Gospel of John, Jesus forgets everything he said in Matthew, inc. Love Thy Neighbour, and then claims he is the "word".
Mark says that Christians can be identified by casting out demons, drink poisons, and healing the sick.
His ideas are mostly consistent with Hillel (90BC->) , in highlighting love in the OT - claiming that the OT was about love, and his new principles were compatible.

The Romans killed him, and we have no idea why, except that he might have claimed to be a king, and been a cultic shit stirrer. We have no documentation outside Mark-Matthew to give us any clue to a real Jesus. He could have been like Ghandi, and done a passive protest against something, and been arrested. That would kill him, but if so, that event would have been documented. Instead we have the implausible scenario that attempts to blame everything on Jews. He was strung up for something, and then we are palmed the conspiracy theory version of WHY, which would have hidden the real why. He could have also been like David Koresh, teaching apocalypse to a group, and telling them that he was their ticket to the afterlife. The Koresh model fits rather well, and explains the dispersal of the disciples, and the strange relationships he had with women and marriage.

Quote
This has nothing to do with the topic.  It is possible that Jesus existed.  It would not surprise me if he didn't.

Tricky for nonexistent people to be your hero?

Quote
  I did not claim the book a lie I called it a disgrace to God.

Anything we wrote about God would be a disgrace to God, since we are clueless.

Quote
Honestly Jesus is like the hero to me.  His sacrifice magnified if he was just a man.

Lots of people have started cults and movements, and then been shot, without warning. Stories of the next Christians, say that people died deliberately in his name. (Or, in the name of getting an afterlife)

Quote
Maybe it's a fear embedded in me from childhood brainwashing, IDK.

I'd be taking the maybe out.

Quote
  If it was nothing but BS I would think the people of the time would not have bought the story at all and Christianity would not be the most popular religion in the world. 

Islam is more popular. You could say that Christianity is more popular among people who count, or have brains. It's believed by more white people. Indians, Chinese and Arabs only count as 0.1 persons per white person.

HTH.

Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: magicmiles on June 23, 2013, 11:14:48 PM

Secondly, banning a book is a sure way to increase its popularity. 

Only if the book has substance beyond the controversy.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: magicmiles on June 24, 2013, 12:06:58 AM
Not my intention at all One.  I simply mean non belief.  Atheism is defined as non belief in gods.  :?  All atheist do not believe in God.

Your wording implied otherwise, since an "attitude" is a series of behaviors[1].
 1. Emphasis on the plural.

June, i think what meant OOA meant to say was:

"Thanks for the clarification, June. You might want to keep in mind, for future reference, that referring to a belief as an 'attitude' will likely cause some confusion"
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on June 24, 2013, 04:50:13 AM
^Wiki defines "attitude" as favor or disfavor towards a person, place, or thing.  Seems I used the word appropriately.  Your attitude influences your behavior but it's not behavior. 
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: One Above All on June 24, 2013, 04:59:02 AM
^Wiki defines "attitude" as favor or disfavor towards a person, place, or thing.  Seems I used the word appropriately.  Your attitude influences your behavior but it's not behavior. 

The word was not used appropriately, since being an atheist doesn't mean you feel a certain way about everything. Hence, there is no "atheistic attitude", as I said before.
Also, magicmiles, you might want to take a long look in the mirror the next time you claim I need to learn some manners. I'm not the one who presumed to speak for others.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: wheels5894 on June 24, 2013, 05:21:56 AM
To get back to the point of this thread, it seems that June

Now it seems to me that, if the bible wasn't there, no one would know about the ideas within it. People might believe they have been in contact with a 'higher power' which they call god but such 'contact' fails to identify the being contacted so people name the being on the basis of other things - like the holy book they read.

So, if the bible did not exist, June would not ever have heard of Jesus and his god and would, instead, be telling of her belief in what ever other holy book she happened to have. So my point is, like others further up, that her belief in Jesus and god is dependant on the fact that she believes what is written in the biblical text since, without that text she would have nothing on which to base a faith.

So, June, can you explain how you can dismiss the bible so successfully in one breath whilst accepting apart of if with another breath? You cannot have it both ways - there is an either or situation -


Sorry, June, but you have to choose one - you can't have them both.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on June 24, 2013, 05:43:35 AM

No, but you said that Jesus thought the prior OT was barbaric, and was attempting to highlight the errors in it.

The message of Jesus is so confused that nobody can really tell what he expected of his followers.

Paul says his crucifixion releases us from sin.
Matthew quotes him as saying that we should live feral, in the environment, with no wealth, like Lilies and birds, who do not need barns. (Matt 6)
He is quoted in the gospel of Thomas, saying a load of other shit
In Luke, he says the Kingdom will not be found by inspection, but is within you, whereas, he berates Sadducees for not believing in the resurrection.
He tells others that the end of the word is coming within their generation.
After telling a ruler to give his wealth away, he then tells his followers that they don't need to.
In the Gospel of John, Jesus forgets everything he said in Matthew, inc. Love Thy Neighbour, and then claims he is the "word".
Mark says that Christians can be identified by casting out demons, drink poisons, and healing the sick.
His ideas are mostly consistent with Hillel (90BC->) , in highlighting love in the OT - claiming that the OT was about love, and his new principles were compatible.

The Romans killed him, and we have no idea why, except that he might have claimed to be a king, and been a cultic shit stirrer. We have no documentation outside Mark-Matthew to give us any clue to a real Jesus. He could have been like Ghandi, and done a passive protest against something, and been arrested. That would kill him, but if so, that event would have been documented. Instead we have the implausible scenario that attempts to blame everything on Jews. He was strung up for something, and then we are palmed the conspiracy theory version of WHY, which would have hidden the real why. He could have also been like David Koresh, teaching apocalypse to a group, and telling them that he was their ticket to the afterlife. The Koresh model fits rather well, and explains the dispersal of the disciples, and the strange relationships he had with women and marriage.


Tricky for nonexistent people to be your hero?


Anything we wrote about God would be a disgrace to God, since we are clueless.



Lots of people have started cults and movements, and then been shot, without warning. Stories of the next Christians, say that people died deliberately in his name. (Or, in the name of getting an afterlife)




Islam is more popular. You could say that Christianity is more popular among people who count, or have brains. It's believed by more white people. Indians, Chinese and Arabs only count as 0.1 persons per white person.

HTH.

This link shows Christianity the most popular.  http://www.adherents.com/images/rel_pie.gif

It is not a disgrace to God to say God is Love.  Even if that God does not exist.

This is not a thread to discuss existence, it is a thread to discuss the disgraceful attributes assigned to God by the biblical authors.  Such as, anger and jealousy. 

You do not know that Jesus did not exist.  It's your opinion. 

^Wiki defines "attitude" as favor or disfavor towards a person, place, or thing.  Seems I used the word appropriately.  Your attitude influences your behavior but it's not behavior. 

The word was not used appropriately, since being an atheist doesn't mean you feel a certain way about everything. Hence, there is no "atheistic attitude", as I said before.
Also, magicmiles, you might want to take a long look in the mirror the next time you claim I need to learn some manners. I'm not the one who presumed to speak for others.

I could rewrite the sentence using the definition.  The word is correct.  Atheist Attitude=rejection of belief.  Just this little protest of yours displays your attitude.  I have encountered a lot of atheistic attitude on this site.  My opinion of that attitude is it developed because religious stories are unbelievable, even to me, a believer in Intelligent Design.

To just not believe would be one thing but that's not what's happening here.  Atheist attitude toward belief is displayed all over this website.

The correct word remains. 
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on June 24, 2013, 05:51:11 AM
I got an ear full from a very profane girl at another website[1] a couple of months ago who says she's a Christian but doesn't believe in the Bible. So, I asked her if she has taken out just the things that Jesus has said in the Bible (that she doesn't believe in[2]), and has it separate from the rest. She said no. I then asked her where she got her teachings from and she replied "the Bible".

June here sounds a lot like her.

Just saying.

-Nam
 1. allpoetry.com, forget her name but i can look if i have to
 2. the Bible, not Jesus
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on June 24, 2013, 05:57:31 AM
To get back to the point of this thread, it seems that June
  • Doesn't approve of the bible and thinks it inaccurate ect
  • Does think that Jesus and god exist despite the bible not being accurate

Now it seems to me that, if the bible wasn't there, no one would know about the ideas within it. People might believe they have been in contact with a 'higher power' which they call god but such 'contact' fails to identify the being contacted so people name the being on the basis of other things - like the holy book they read.

So, if the bible did not exist, June would not ever have heard of Jesus and his god and would, instead, be telling of her belief in what ever other holy book she happened to have. So my point is, like others further up, that her belief in Jesus and god is dependant on the fact that she believes what is written in the biblical text since, without that text she would have nothing on which to base a faith.

So, June, can you explain how you can dismiss the bible so successfully in one breath whilst accepting apart of if with another breath? You cannot have it both ways - there is an either or situation -

  • Either the bible is true and belief can be based on its texts as June does
  • Or the bible is evil and dreadful and belief cannot be based on its text

Sorry, June, but you have to choose one - you can't have them both.

If I based belief on the bible I would not believe.  Wheels I know you've read enough of my posts to know that I do not get my belief from the bible.  The bible is why I was atheist for 7 years.  I believe in Intelligent Design.  The authors of the bible, though presumably wrong, thought up Intelligent Design before the bible was written, so it is possible to believe in God w/o the bible.  Many tribes believed in a Higher Power and many still do.  It is the attributes assigned to that Power that I do not subscribe to.

It is possible that Jesus was real.  In the chance that is true I will not dishonor him.  IMO, we are all God's children.

You people need to stop telling lies about me.  Atheistic attitudes.

My belief comes from the belief that intelligence was necessary to have such a world as we do.  NOT FROM THE BIBLE. 
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: The Gawd on June 24, 2013, 06:09:37 AM

If I based belief on the bible I would not believe.  Wheels I know you've read enough of my posts to know that I do not get my belief from the bible.  The bible is why I was atheist for 7 years.  I believe in Intelligent Design.  The authors of the bible, though presumably wrong, thought up Intelligent Design before the bible was written, so it is possible to believe in God w/o the bible.  Many tribes believed in a Higher Power and many still do.  It is the attributes assigned to that Power that I do not subscribe to.

It is possible that Jesus was real.  In the chance that is true I will not dishonor him.  IMO, we are all God's children.

You people need to stop telling lies about me.  Atheistic attitudes.

My belief comes from the belief that intelligence was necessary to have such a world as we do.  NOT FROM THE BIBLE.
You absolutely base your belief on the bible. it is bible god that you identify with and his son. There is no other way to get that belief than from the bible. Your belief in Jesus is from the bible, along with what you think he did. You dont see Hindus upset that the bible is disgraceful to their god... you know why? Because the bible has nothing to do with their belief system. The bible has EVERYTHING to do with your belief system, so thats why it offends you.

JB you are a christian, whether you want to admit it or not.

And in response to a previous response of yours, you stated that you did not say that the book was lies, just that it was disgraceful. I dont think you'll find too many here that disagree, the book is a disgrace. However, your inability to call it lies suggests that it is true. And since it is true, by your own admission, should they not give the accurate portrayal of your god? Should not a biography on Thomas Jesfferson include that he was a slaveholder?

For me accuracy is the best bet. As I look around the world, if there wasnt natural explanations for everything, I could see how a dumb evil god (like the one in the bible) would be responsible for these conditions. Certainly not the one you try to describe.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on June 24, 2013, 09:10:53 AM

If I based belief on the bible I would not believe.  Wheels I know you've read enough of my posts to know that I do not get my belief from the bible.  The bible is why I was atheist for 7 years.  I believe in Intelligent Design.  The authors of the bible, though presumably wrong, thought up Intelligent Design before the bible was written, so it is possible to believe in God w/o the bible.  Many tribes believed in a Higher Power and many still do.  It is the attributes assigned to that Power that I do not subscribe to.

It is possible that Jesus was real.  In the chance that is true I will not dishonor him.  IMO, we are all God's children.

You people need to stop telling lies about me.  Atheistic attitudes.

My belief comes from the belief that intelligence was necessary to have such a world as we do.  NOT FROM THE BIBLE.
You absolutely base your belief on the bible. it is bible god that you identify with and his son. There is no other way to get that belief than from the bible. Your belief in Jesus is from the bible, along with what you think he did. You dont see Hindus upset that the bible is disgraceful to their god... you know why? Because the bible has nothing to do with their belief system. The bible has EVERYTHING to do with your belief system, so thats why it offends you.

JB you are a christian, whether you want to admit it or not.

And in response to a previous response of yours, you stated that you did not say that the book was lies, just that it was disgraceful. I dont think you'll find too many here that disagree, the book is a disgrace. However, your inability to call it lies suggests that it is true. And since it is true, by your own admission, should they not give the accurate portrayal of your god? Should not a biography on Thomas Jesfferson include that he was a slaveholder?

For me accuracy is the best bet. As I look around the world, if there wasnt natural explanations for everything, I could see how a dumb evil god (like the one in the bible) would be responsible for these conditions. Certainly not the one you try to describe.

Well I think I know where my belief comes from better than you. 

This is no different from me saying they really believe they just say they don't.  I could say what I want about you, it does not make it true.   If I say I do not base my belief on the bible, I do not, and I find it most arrogant for any of you to say otherwise.  If my belief was bible based I would believe I was condemned to hell along with everybody here.

Do I agree with some of Jesus's teachings, yes I do.  I believe in some Buddhist teachings, I believe in some Native American teachings.  There is plenty of sources that influence my belief.  What I find critical is that I consider the consequences and not follow blindly. 

Ancient Toltec knowledge is what I live my life by.  Take that and really stick it in your ear. 

I am not a liar.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jdawg70 on June 24, 2013, 10:05:24 AM
Well I think I know where my belief comes from better than you. 
So junebug72...

...where does your belief in the existence of Jesus come from?

You are correct - you know where you belief comes from better than the rest of us.  You say that it does not come from the bible; so far as I can tell, the only primary source for the existence of Jesus, the Jesus that has some relationship to god (not sure what you believe in that respect), is the bible.

It boils down to this: how did you learn about Jesus?
Was it from the bible?  Seems clearly that, in your case, the answer is 'no'.
Was it from the people around you?  If so, where did they there about Jesus?  If not the bible, where?
Was it from direct experience of Jesus in some form or another?  If so, is it something you can describe?

Again, like you said, you know where your belief comes better than we do.  Please help close the gap in understanding.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: screwtape on June 24, 2013, 10:07:09 AM
If it was nothing but BS I would think the people of the time would not have bought the story at all and Christianity would not be the most popular religion in the world. 

I just want to point out to you the lack of reliability of that logic.

If it was nothing but BS I would think the people of the time would not have bought the story at all and Islam would not be a very popular religion in the world.

If it was nothing but BS I would think the people of the time would not have bought the story at all and Hinduism would not be the most popular religion in Asia.

If it was nothing but BS I would think the people of the time would not have bought the story at all and Mormonism would not be a popular religion in the US.

If it was nothing but BS I would think the people of the time would not have bought the story at all and Scientology would not be a popular religion in the Hollywood.


So I hope you can see that popularity is not correlated with veracity.  I'm not arguing jesus H did not exist.  I'm just pointing out because a lot of people believe in jesus H, does not mean there actually was a jesus H.


 
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: screwtape on June 24, 2013, 10:27:06 AM
This is not a thread to discuss existence, it is a thread to discuss the disgraceful attributes assigned to God by the biblical authors.  Such as, anger and jealousy. 

If it is a disgrace to say god is angry or jealous, I take it to mean you think god is neither of those things.  How do you know that?  Why do you think those alleged prophets were wrong?  I ask because I have no way to tell which of you is right.  I've never met god to assess the various traits of his personality.   



It is possible that Jesus was real.  In the chance that is true I will not dishonor him. 

As I pointed out in my previous post, there are lots of religious traditions and stories which you, presumably, put as much or little faith in as the bible.  Do you also tiptoe around those heroes, on the chance they are also true?  Are you careful to not dishonor Krishna?  How about Mohammed?  Or [wiki]Xenu[/wiki]? 

You people need to stop telling lies about me. 

Please dial back our use of the "L word".  Nobody is telling lies, that I can see.  They may have made some wrong assumptions or had some misunderstandings.  Thanks. 

Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Add Homonym on June 24, 2013, 10:29:39 AM

This link shows Christianity the most popular.  http://www.adherents.com/images/rel_pie.gif


Oh, you mean Christianity is the most popular religion, because rich white people put Christian down on the census forms, even though they don't know what it is.

I like this picture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Christian_distribution.png

... says 60-70% of Australia is Christian, yet Magic Miles says a Christian in Australia is seen as a retard.

Not only are white Christians more important that Muslims and Hindus, but they get to lie about their belief as well. Most of the protestants I know, say that Catholics are Satanists, so that rules out 70% of the Christians.

http://theologica.ning.com/profiles/blogs/how-many-real-christians-in

Quote
You do not know that Jesus did not exist.  It's your opinion. 

I didn't know that I had opinions that I didn't have.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Jag on June 24, 2013, 11:40:48 AM
I think the bible is a disgrace to humankind. We're in agreement that it was not divinely inspired, and is in fact the work of humans, so I put the blame where I think it belongs - squarely on people who wanted to be obeyed and were willing to use threats of eternal damnation to ensure it.

I'd like to propose a slightly different suggestion on jb's behalf. I'm sure she'll set me straight if I have this wrong.

I get the impression that junebug is well aware that she has beliefs in a creator that has similar attributes to the God of christianity-lite (you know, the God of Love that doesn't show up in the bible much) and in light of her chosen beliefs, she rejects the nastiness and cherry picks what she accepts - this is standard operating procedure among moderate believers and at least in this case, comparatively harmless. She categorically denounces the opportunities to use those beliefs to oppress others and consistently sides with the oppressed - as long as she continues to do so, she can SPAG all over the place and it won't bother me one bit. I realize that this is very frustrating to some members, but I'll take a kind-hearted, well-intentioned believer in a self created decent deity over a "Crusader for Christ" type any day. YMMV - I would like to see more critical thinking, but she has come a long way in her postings during her time here and I want to give fair credit to her for that. It couldn't have been easy.

I'm tossing this out for approval or dispute from junebug herself - I suspect that she uses the word "God" to essentially mean "source of creation" rather than anything related to the "Christian homicidal maniac who hates most of us and is itching to send us to hell to burn for eternity" - you know, the one in the bible that she's denouncing in this thread. She also indicates (right here in this thread) that her beliefs are influenced by other traditions such as Buddhism and Native American traditions so continuing to insist that she is a christian whether she likes it or not seems to me to be somewhat unfair. If she is using the term "God" because it's familiar to most everyone she is surrounded with, but has made an effort to make the distinction clear here, we could consider dropping the bible argument in favor of discussing the rest of her beliefs. SPAG, yes, but she's made no secret of that in all the time she's been posting here. She has consistently stated that she does not believe the bible is the inerrant word of god. I'm going to have to side with her - she a SPAGarian, not a christian - true of most christians, but usually not to their knowledge. And she does know it - in fact I don't recall her ever denying it (although I'm sure if she has, someone will link to it and I'll take it back  ;)).

junebug, I'm very interested in how you came to hold such diverse views on God. I went though a period of serious SPAG during the years that I was still a believer (at least I thought I was  ;)) so some of what you say reminds me a great deal of that time in my life. I held beliefs similar to those you seem to have. To this day, I find Buddhism very appealing as a philosophy, minus a deity. The emphasis on a wide view of the world - I like it.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Samothec on June 24, 2013, 01:45:27 PM
 
I believe in Intelligent Design.  The authors of the bible, though presumably wrong, thought up Intelligent Design before the bible was written, so it is possible to believe in God w/o the bible. 
It was proven in a court of law – which means rigorous proof – that Intelligent Design is a only slightly modified version of Creationism.
 Wiki article on the Dover case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District)
Multiple versions for how the universe came to be been proposed. Some have been created to match the facts (Big Bang) more than others (pretty much everything else). I will grant that ID has been altered to more closely coincide with what has been discovered about the history of the universe. But you need to understand that most atheists know the origin of ID (as modified Creationism) and so view it as Xian.

It is possible that Jesus was real.  In the chance that is true I will not dishonor him.  IMO, we are all God's children.
The only source for information about Jesus is the New Testament of the Bible. It is these two facts (your belief in ID & Jesus) which make people say that your belief comes from the Bible. The only source for the material underlying those portions of your belief comes from the Bible. So it does not appear to be a lie to say that your belief comes from the Bible as uncomfortable as that makes you feel.

But your refutation of that says to me that you have a strong spiritual sense/need so you are trying to find a satisfactory solution. And from Jag's post it seems that I'm not the only one who sees that in your writing. IMO there are no good solutions but there are a few moderate ones. (As well as plenty of bad ones.) I was going to ask if you had checked out Buddhism or other more philosophical routes then I saw a later post by you where you mention Buddhism.

Back to the topic, somewhat. From what I have seen, there are no Christians who follow the Old Testament. Those who refer to themselves as "Christian" but follow the Old Testament are nasty vile people who I use "Xian" for when referring to them.

I would like to see a public campaign which drives home the idea that the Old Testament is only for Jews (who seem to know how to follow it without becoming raving idiots en mass), that Christians only follow the New Testament, and that Mormons only follow the Book of Mormon (although AFAIK they mostly do that anyway). I am fairly sure that pretty much every Christian and Xian who looks down on Mormons does not see the irony or hypocrisy – that they are to Jews what the Mormons are to them.

Is the Bible full of crap? Yes with the New Testament having a dash more compassion even if it is no less vile. But what "holy" book isn't?

I would like to suggest, junebug72, that until you find something else to point to as your spiritual inspiration (a single source people can easily grasp) and drop all references to Jesus, you might want to only condemn the Old Testament. Otherwise you will continue to get people questioning you on how you can hold such self-contradictory beliefs. Some on this site see any spirituality as a bad thing (and too often they are right) so the subtleties of your beliefs will be overlooked deliberately by some. Others of us (including me sometimes) will overlook them unintentionally. So I would also like to suggest if my speculations are correct that you: embrace the term SPAG (Self Projection As God), only refer to the writings about Jesus as inspirational, drop "God" & ID and instead say "Creator" and refer to a creation event billions of years ago. Obviously only if that is what you believe but the point is that terminology matters to some of us – mainly because using the most accurate words leads to fewer misunderstandings.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: screwtape on June 24, 2013, 02:28:41 PM
Jews (who seem to know how to follow it without becoming raving idiots en mass),

eh, I'd say the less they follow it, the less likely they are to be raving idiots.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/01/01/israel-s-ultra-orthodox-problem.html
http://nymag.com/news/features/east-ramapo-hasidim-2013-4/

Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Samothec on June 24, 2013, 02:38:38 PM
That was why I added the "en mass" - I know they have their wackos extremists too. Have you noticed though that Jewish extremists never come out to support the YEC Xians who claim a literal Genesis? At least, I've never heard of that happening.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Willie on June 24, 2013, 09:45:16 PM
It was proven in a court of law – which means rigorous proof – that Intelligent Design is a only slightly modified version of Creationism.
I suspect that she might not be using the term to refer to the pseudo-scientific doctrine by that name that is promoted by the Discovery Institute, but more of a generic, deist-like, belief in a creator. My apologies JB if I got that all wrong. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth or define you, but that's the impression I've gotten.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Willie on June 24, 2013, 09:58:27 PM
  • Either the bible is true and belief can be based on its texts as June does
  • Or the bible is evil and dreadful and belief cannot be based on its text

Sorry, June, but you have to choose one - you can't have them both.

False dichotomy. It is not unheard of for a real person to be followed by a mix of true stories and tall tales. There was a real Davy Crockett, but I'm pretty sure that story in which he rode an alligator up Niagara Falls isn't true. I'm not arguing that this either is or isn't the case with Jesus, but only that there are more possibilities than the two you offer.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Azdgari on June 24, 2013, 10:20:42 PM
I suspect that she might not be using the term to refer to the pseudo-scientific doctrine by that name that is promoted by the Discovery Institute, but more of a generic, deist-like, belief in a creator. My apologies JB if I got that all wrong. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth or define you, but that's the impression I've gotten.

She did capitalize it...
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Willie on June 24, 2013, 11:14:59 PM
^^ Good point.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on June 25, 2013, 05:45:26 AM
If it is a disgrace to say god is angry or jealous, I take it to mean you think god is neither of those things.  How do you know that?  Why do you think those alleged prophets were wrong?  I ask because I have no way to tell which of you is right.  I've never met god to assess the various traits of his personality.
   


I don't claim to know anything.  It does however seem obvious to me.  I see no wrath of God.


As I pointed out in my previous post, there are lots of religious traditions and stories which you, presumably, put as much or little faith in as the bible.  Do you also tiptoe around those heroes, on the chance they are also true?  Are you careful to not dishonor Krishna?  How about Mohammed?  Or [wiki]Xenu[/wiki]?



I do not make it a habit of dishonoring the heroes of others.  That just seems to piss people off.



Please dial back our use of the "L word".  Nobody is telling lies, that I can see.  They may have made some wrong assumptions or had some misunderstandings.  Thanks.

Their words do not insinuate assumption.  They spoke as if they had knowledge of me. 

Yes the "L" word was harsh, should have used the word dishonest.  See what I mean about words.  I apologize for mine. :)
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on June 25, 2013, 06:29:52 AM
I think the bible is a disgrace to humankind. We're in agreement that it was not divinely inspired, and is in fact the work of humans, so I put the blame where I think it belongs - squarely on people who wanted to be obeyed and were willing to use threats of eternal damnation to ensure it.

I'd like to propose a slightly different suggestion on jb's behalf. I'm sure she'll set me straight if I have this wrong.

I get the impression that junebug is well aware that she has beliefs in a creator that has similar attributes to the God of christianity-lite (you know, the God of Love that doesn't show up in the bible much) and in light of her chosen beliefs, she rejects the nastiness and cherry picks what she accepts - this is standard operating procedure among moderate believers and at least in this case, comparatively harmless. She categorically denounces the opportunities to use those beliefs to oppress others and consistently sides with the oppressed - as long as she continues to do so, she can SPAG all over the place and it won't bother me one bit. I realize that this is very frustrating to some members, but I'll take a kind-hearted, well-intentioned believer in a self created decent deity over a "Crusader for Christ" type any day. YMMV - I would like to see more critical thinking, but she has come a long way in her postings during her time here and I want to give fair credit to her for that. It couldn't have been easy.

I'm tossing this out for approval or dispute from junebug herself - I suspect that she uses the word "God" to essentially mean "source of creation" rather than anything related to the "Christian homicidal maniac who hates most of us and is itching to send us to hell to burn for eternity" - you know, the one in the bible that she's denouncing in this thread. She also indicates (right here in this thread) that her beliefs are influenced by other traditions such as Buddhism and Native American traditions so continuing to insist that she is a christian whether she likes it or not seems to me to be somewhat unfair. If she is using the term "God" because it's familiar to most everyone she is surrounded with, but has made an effort to make the distinction clear here, we could consider dropping the bible argument in favor of discussing the rest of her beliefs. SPAG, yes, but she's made no secret of that in all the time she's been posting here. She has consistently stated that she does not believe the bible is the inerrant word of god. I'm going to have to side with her - she a SPAGarian, not a christian - true of most christians, but usually not to their knowledge. And she does know it - in fact I don't recall her ever denying it (although I'm sure if she has, someone will link to it and I'll take it back  ;)).

junebug, I'm very interested in how you came to hold such diverse views on God. I went though a period of serious SPAG during the years that I was still a believer (at least I thought I was  ;)) so some of what you say reminds me a great deal of that time in my life. I held beliefs similar to those you seem to have. To this day, I find Buddhism very appealing as a philosophy, minus a deity. The emphasis on a wide view of the world - I like it.

Thanks Jag.  That was a breath of fresh air.  The only thing I'll disagree with here is cherry picking.  SPAGger  I am but I haven't cherry picked the bible.  I only recognize the historical value of the book. Don't worry I have embraced the term since my introduction. ;)  It's catchy.

This is a well thought out unbiased analysis of Junebug.

I'd be happy to share.  In my mind The Creator has all knowledge and is the master of every skill that the creation possesses with attributes that the created can not comprehend. I come to my beliefs by asking myself the hard questions and determining from my knowledge base what could be true or is it possible.  I believe strongly in the Creator's Love because of the beauty of Love.  An unkind God would have made us a planet of awful things where there was no joy, beauty, freedom, compassion or love.

Once you have defined The Creator as Loving the rest just falls into place.  If it's not Loving it is not true.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on June 25, 2013, 06:42:28 AM
As a confessed SPAGer and Cherry Picker I find that I am throwing out more and more cherries lately.

Here is a site I have been reading a lot that I think Jag pointed me to.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ken_daniels/why.html#Christian







Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on June 25, 2013, 06:49:16 AM
I believe in Intelligent Design.  The authors of the bible, though presumably wrong, thought up Intelligent Design before the bible was written, so it is possible to believe in God w/o the bible. 
It was proven in a court of law – which means rigorous proof – that Intelligent Design is a only slightly modified version of Creationism.
 Wiki article on the Dover case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District)
Multiple versions for how the universe came to be been proposed. Some have been created to match the facts (Big Bang) more than others (pretty much everything else). I will grant that ID has been altered to more closely coincide with what has been discovered about the history of the universe. But you need to understand that most atheists know the origin of ID (as modified Creationism) and so view it as Xian.


I thought most atheist knew that it's predated by several other beliefs, as do I.

It is possible that Jesus was real.  In the chance that is true I will not dishonor him.  IMO, we are all God's children.



The only source for information about Jesus is the New Testament of the Bible. It is these two facts (your belief in ID & Jesus) which make people say that your belief comes from the Bible. The only source for the material underlying those portions of your belief comes from the Bible. So it does not appear to be a lie to say that your belief comes from the Bible as uncomfortable as that makes you feel.


Source of ID=My own mind
Source of Jesus=Bible
Source of belief=My own mind

The core of my belief is very UNchristian, where was that in their analogy?


Back to the topic, somewhat. From what I have seen, there are no Christians who follow the Old Testament. Those who refer to themselves as "Christian" but follow the Old Testament are nasty vile people who I use "Xian" for when referring to them.

Any Christian that claims homosexuality an abomination is following OT doctrine.


Is the Bible full of crap? Yes with the New Testament having a dash more compassion even if it is no less vile. But what "holy" book isn't?

I would like to suggest, junebug72, that until you find something else to point to as your spiritual inspiration (a single source people can easily grasp) and drop all references to Jesus, you might want to only condemn the Old Testament. Otherwise you will continue to get people questioning you on how you can hold such self-contradictory beliefs. Some on this site see any spirituality as a bad thing (and too often they are right) so the subtleties of your beliefs will be overlooked deliberately by some. Others of us (including me sometimes) will overlook them unintentionally. So I would also like to suggest if my speculations are correct that you: embrace the term SPAG (Self Projection As God), only refer to the writings about Jesus as inspirational, drop "God" & ID and instead say "Creator" and refer to a creation event billions of years ago. Obviously only if that is what you believe but the point is that terminology matters to some of us – mainly because using the most accurate words leads to fewer misunderstandings.

Good point.

Thanks for the suggestion.  I'll take it under advisement. ;)
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: William on June 25, 2013, 07:02:33 AM
An unkind God would have made us a planet of awful things where there was no joy, beauty, freedom, compassion or love.

(http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/visions/field-test/nichols-serengeti/img/gallery/05-hyena-baby-gazelle-950.jpg)

(http://climatechange.thinkaboutit.eu/scripts/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/imagemanager/files/Lucy/Slaying2.jpg)

(http://www.gannett-cdn.com/media/USATODAY/USATODAY/2013/05/08/taslima03-4_3_rx513_c680x510.jpg?6c3c24a06b2ec04d15c066f5e9a76a10a837ffd4)
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: William on June 25, 2013, 07:16:34 AM
Any Christian that claims homosexuality an abomination is following OT doctrine.

And is obeying Jesus - following his word exactly:
Quote
Matthew 5:17-18

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on June 25, 2013, 08:18:57 AM
As a confessed SPAGer and Cherry Picker I find that I am throwing out more and more cherries lately.

Here is a site I have been reading a lot that I think Jag pointed me to.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ken_daniels/why.html#Christian

I've been reading it. I'll get back to you.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: screwtape on June 25, 2013, 09:26:36 AM
I don't claim to know anything.  It does however seem obvious to me.  I see no wrath of God.

Okay, pardon me.  Why do you think that?  Lots of people who believe in god think they see his wrath everywhere.  Why are they not right?


I do not make it a habit of dishonoring the heroes of others.  That just seems to piss people off.

But their heroes are preposterous, are they not?  Let's take Krishna.  A blue guy (sometimes black) who counciled prince Arjuna before a battle. The prince was worried about killing a lot of people, some of whom were his friends and relatives.  Krishna told him not to worry.  It is an illusion that all those people are distinct people who can be killed.  He said they are all just little pieces of the one god, Brahman, that have forgotten they are each a spark of the divine.  So, go ahead, do your duty and kill them, because you are not really killing them at all.[1]

Tell me that's not crazy. 

Or we could go into how Mohammed married a 6 year old child and heroically waited until she was 9 to consummate the relationship.

I'd say sometimes people's heroes are dishonorable, and pointing that out is not wrong. 



edit:

The only thing I'll disagree with here is cherry picking.  SPAGger  I am but I haven't cherry picked the bible.
...
Source of Jesus=Bible

Just sayin'

 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavad_Gita (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavad_Gita)
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Jag on June 25, 2013, 09:42:13 AM
Thanks Jag.  That was a breath of fresh air.  The only thing I'll disagree with here is cherry picking.  SPAGger  I am but I haven't cherry picked the bible.  I only recognize the historical value of the book. Don't worry I have embraced the term since my introduction. ;)  It's catchy.
I thought about it after I posted and realized that "cherry picking" was likely to be the term you objected to, and I should have found a different way to say that part. I'm ok with tossing the bible aside entirely  ;)

Quote
This is a well thought out unbiased analysis of Junebug.

That's what I was aiming for. Glad I got it mostly right.

Quote
I'd be happy to share.  In my mind The Creator has all knowledge and is the master of every skill that the creation possesses with attributes that the created can not comprehend. I come to my beliefs by asking myself the hard questions and determining from my knowledge base what could be true or is it possible.  I believe strongly in the Creator's Love because of the beauty of Love.  An unkind God would have made us a planet of awful things where there was no joy, beauty, freedom, compassion or love.

Once you have defined The Creator as Loving the rest just falls into place.  If it's not Loving it is not true.

I get where you are coming from. I disagree obviously, but I get it. In fact, with the 2 lines above, you sound a lot like my best friend. I think you would like her - I describe her as a hippie/earth-mother.

The more I learn about Buddhism, the more it appeals to me. Skip over a deity (which Buddha didn't seem all that interested in anyway) and it fits the way I want to live (I'm working on it). I'm taking a Comparative Religions class this semester and we've been focused on Eastern traditions so far.  I really like their focus on life and learning - Hinduism in practice has become something else entirely though. Buddhism in particular seems to really focus on the idea of everyone helping more and b!tching less. I'll let you know what I think of Confucianism after this week  ;D
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Graybeard on June 25, 2013, 10:07:59 AM
The bible really is a disgrace, a con, designed to control a petty and cruel civilization.  It uses fear and manipulation to accomplish the goal of enslaving women, discriminating homosexuality, and provide consequences for violence.  While their reasons seem somewhat noble, after 6000 years it is in dire need of an upgrade. 

My biggest problem with the book is the cruel, angry, and jealous God it portrays.

The problem is that the Bible contains all anyone knows about God or can know about God. If you ban it, no one would know anything about Yahweh/Immanuel/The Holy Spirit. - This would be a good thing but  if you altered it, it would not be the Bible, and some other fairy tale would take its place.

It is like saying we should update Snow White and the 7 Dwarves - Give her an iPhone and a sports car and have the Dwarves as illegal Mexican workers. 

Quote
God can exist without the bible.

No, He can't. He can no more exist without the Bible than Harry Potter can exist without the books and films about him.

PS, Why am I not surprised that you believe in intelligent design? Why are the people who think ID is valid, the same people who have low marks in the science subject?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jdawg70 on June 25, 2013, 12:01:23 PM
The only thing I'll disagree with here is cherry picking.  SPAGger  I am but I haven't cherry picked the bible.
...
Source of Jesus=Bible

Just sayin'
What screwtape is pointing out is the same thing that is confusing me about your beliefs and viewpoints.  But perhaps some clarity is in order:

Do you believe that Jesus was an actual, existing entity?
If so, do you believe this actual, existing entity was just a human or 'divine' in some manner?
If not, do you view the Jesus entity simply an ideal to strive towards?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jdawg70 on June 25, 2013, 12:13:32 PM
I'd be happy to share.  In my mind The Creator has all knowledge and is the master of every skill that the creation possesses with attributes that the created can not comprehend. I come to my beliefs by asking myself the hard questions and determining from my knowledge base what could be true or is it possible.  I believe strongly in the Creator's Love because of the beauty of Love.  An unkind God would have made us a planet of awful things where there was no joy, beauty, freedom, compassion or love.

Once you have defined The Creator as Loving the rest just falls into place.  If it's not Loving it is not true.
So asking yourself the hard questions and determining from your knowledge base what could be true or possible...

Quote
I believe strongly in the Creator's Hate because of the horrors of Hate.  A kind God would have made us a planet of beautiful things where there was no suffering, death, slavery, egotism, or hatred.

Once you have defined The Creator as Hateful the rest just falls into place.  If it's not Hateful it is not true.
In what manner did you discard the above possibility?  Or did you discard that possibility?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on June 25, 2013, 03:57:39 PM
Any Christian that claims homosexuality an abomination is following OT doctrine.

And is obeying Jesus - following his word exactly:


William,

A hyena eating a gazelle is hardly evil.  That is the cycle of life.
That's mankind killing those whales.
I do not know the circumstances behind the dead humans.  Is it from war or natural disaster?

If it is from war, that is in man's hands.

If it is natural disaster, from what we know about the planet, weather is a key element in our design. 

We could build homes that do not crumble if it were not for excessive greed. 


Quote
Matthew 5:17-18

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


This was probably added by the author to protect his life.  Jesus clearly did come to change the law or why even come.  The whole story is Jesus denouncing the "old ways".   The washing of hands, stoning, judging, long prayers in long robes. Even the simplest law of the Sabbath. I believe the author feared that he would suffer the same fate as Jesus if he did not change the message.


I never said to obey Jesus.  Not sure Jesus did either. 
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Samothec on June 25, 2013, 04:07:13 PM
I want to preface this with a note that I wrote my first version a few hours ago and, when I was nearly finished, I accidentally closed the window. I am fairly calm now but if there seems to be any annoyance in what I have written below, please do not take it personally – it is a holdover from deleting what felt like a considerate and well worded response. Hopefully this is also one.

I thought most atheist knew that it's predated by several other beliefs, as do I.
...
Source of ID=My own mind
Source of Jesus=Bible
Source of belief=My own mind

The core of my belief is very UNchristian, where was that in their analogy?
The ultimate source of anyone's belief does stem from within their own mind created by the slightly faulty agency detection system in our heads which does not rule out false positives as much as it should for good cognition. But few people know that and in everyday interactions they will look to social or knowledge based sources for the reason for other's beliefs. As such, saying you believe in ID = believing in the Bible as that is the source for ID. From Wiki:

Quote from: Wikipedia
Intelligent design (ID) is a form of creationism promulgated by the Discovery Institute, a politically conservative think tank based in the U.S. The Institute defines it as the proposition that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." It is a contemporary adaptation of the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God, presented by its advocates as "an evidence-based scientific theory about life's origins" rather than "a religious-based idea". All the leading proponents of intelligent design are associated with the Discovery Institute and believe the designer to be the Christian deity.

Scientific acceptance of Intelligent Design would require redefining science to allow supernatural explanations of observed phenomena, an approach its proponents describe as theistic realism or theistic science. It puts forth a number of arguments in support of the existence of a designer, the most prominent of which are irreducible complexity and specified complexity. The scientific community rejects the extension of science to include supernatural explanations in favor of continued acceptance of methodological naturalism, and has rejected both irreducible complexity and specified complexity for a wide range of conceptual and factual flaws. Intelligent design is viewed as a pseudoscience by the scientific community, because it lacks empirical support, offers no tenable hypotheses, and aims to describe natural history in terms of scientifically untestable supernatural causes.

Intelligent design was developed by a group of American creationists who revised their argument in the creation–evolution controversy to circumvent court rulings such as the United States Supreme Court's Edwards v. Aguillard decision, which barred the teaching of "Creation Science" in public schools on the grounds of breaching the separation of church and state. The first publication of the phrase "intelligent design" in its present use as an alternative term for creationism was in Of Pandas and People, a 1989 textbook intended for high-school biology classes. From the mid-1990s, intelligent design proponents were supported by the Discovery Institute, which, together with its Center for Science and Culture, planned and funded the "intelligent design movement". They advocated inclusion of intelligent design in public school biology curricula, leading to the 2005 Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District trial, where U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III ruled that intelligent design is not science, that it "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents", and that the school district's promotion of it therefore violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

There is no other source for intelligent design. No other religion or belief system has anything close to ID. And the only way to (semi-)independently derive a personal version of ID is if the person buys into certain pseudoscience ideas like irreducible complexity and specified complexity – which have been shown to be false.

The most independent version of ID would be if the person rejected the religious teachings and pseudoscience junk but could not reject the idea of a creator and postulated that there must be a creator and it created this universe billions of years ago with all the natural forces set up to proceed on their own without need of any action on the creator's part.

There are two significant things about this creation concept. First, the creator is not God. The word 'god' when written capitalized signifies the god of the Bible – also referred to as Yahweh or Jehovah. Any other deity is referred to by name or by the generic "god", never by "God". (Except by sloppy writers/thinkers.) Second, there is ultimately no support for the idea of a creator beyond the flawed ideas by which all other gods are refuted.


I went through a similar period where I still thought there needed to be a creator but I had reached a point where I understood all the gods from all the religions were just a part of primitive man's attempt to understand the world. I realized that a creator needed to be intelligent to have created the universe; a stupid god could never have managed to understand, let alone come up with, the elegance of the four basic forces by which the universe functioned (Strong, Electromagnetic, Weak and Gravity). I realized that a creator would have to have an immense imagination larger than my own. I also realized that a creator would need to have the power to be able to will things into existence just upon thinking of them. I could think of so many things including multitudes of parallel universes. I came to the conclusion that anything I could think of, the creator could think of and more – and it could create them all.

This helped for a little while explain why there was suffering and evil in the world. In an infinity of infinities, anything and everything was possible. But then what was the creator really? The creator I had created in my head that seemed so much better than any of the gods of any religion still had flaws. There was no longer any observable difference between the multiverse with a creator and the (viewable) universe[1] without a creator. The creator had gotten spread out into nothingness and was gone.


I do envy you for being able to see your deity as Love. I don't want to rob you of that. I do want you to understand that the way you currently present your beliefs says to people you are a variant of a christian and your beliefs can be dismissed with theirs. So, for your sake, stop referring to your idea of the beginning of the universe as ID. Stop referring to "God". Find terms that better suit what you believe.
 1. but presumably the multiverse
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on June 25, 2013, 04:36:03 PM
Well I think I know where my belief comes from better than you. 
So junebug72...

...where does your belief in the existence of Jesus come from?

You are correct - you know where you belief comes from better than the rest of us.  You say that it does not come from the bible; so far as I can tell, the only primary source for the existence of Jesus, the Jesus that has some relationship to god (not sure what you believe in that respect), is the bible.

It boils down to this: how did you learn about Jesus?
Was it from the bible?  Seems clearly that, in your case, the answer is 'no'.
Was it from the people around you?  If so, where did they there about Jesus?  If not the bible, where?
Was it from direct experience of Jesus in some form or another?  If so, is it something you can describe?

Again, like you said, you know where your belief comes better than we do.  Please help close the gap in understanding.

I think part of the problem is you don't understand the relationship I have with Jesus; I don't.  I am not a Christian, a fact that I have repeatedly stated.  I am open minded about the whole story.  For me I have chosen to live a life of peace and love.  I have found inspiration for that journey in the teachings of Jesus, Gandhi, Martin Luther King and many other non violent demonstrators.

Yes I can only use the bible for a source for Jesus.  It is also the source of other Jewish history.  It is a totally different read if you read it not believing it is divine/holy.

I will try to be more patient with you as you try to understand me.  If this doesn't help I will try and try until you get me. 

I've got to go for now. Take care.  Have a good evening.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: William on June 25, 2013, 06:05:28 PM
A hyena eating a gazelle is hardly evil.  That is the cycle of life.
That's mankind killing those whales.
Of course it's the cycle of life - newborn kids trembling with fear, bleating for their mothers while having their limbs ripped off by jaws that crunch through bones. The mother's of kids running around in fear and obviously filled with emotions of bereavement, making futile calls to make contact with their stolen kids. 
Basically what you'd expect from something evolved - not something created by a God overflowing with a sense of:" joy, beauty, freedom, compassion or love".

That is traditional whaling in Norway - practiced for many generations - the people would not have survived and thrived there without it - it is also the "cycle of life".
It's an outdoor abattoir - the chickens, pigs, cattle, fish etc we eat all die in quite unpleasant ways to sustain humans.
Are humans and their nutrition needs not part of the design?
 

I do not know the circumstances behind the dead humans.  Is it from war or natural disaster?

If it is from war, that is in man's hands.

If it is natural disaster, from what we know about the planet, weather is a key element in our design. 

We could build homes that do not crumble if it were not for excessive greed. 

That is from the recent garment factory collapse in Bangladesh.  Innocent victims of greed - no doubt about that.  What God of "freedom" and "compassion" would sit by and watch those poor people crushed by steel and rubble and suffocating dust?



This was probably added by the author to protect his life.  Jesus clearly did come to change the law or why even come.

Cute little dodge - anything Jesus is purported to have said that doesn't fit with your personal ideal hero version is declared invalid and worthy of ignoring  &) 
This is what I call excusiology.  A prime example of cherry picking in action.

Wouldn't a God with any sense have tried a bit harder to communicate accurately with it's creationlings?  Why waste the effort of Jesus with uncoordinated and confusing marketing messages?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Timtheskeptic on June 25, 2013, 07:17:02 PM
I think part of the problem is you don't understand the relationship I have with Jesus; I don't.  I am not a Christian, a fact that I have repeatedly stated.  I am open minded about the whole story.  For me I have chosen to live a life of peace and love.  I have found inspiration for that journey in the teachings of Jesus, Gandhi, Martin Luther King and many other non violent demonstrators.

I know this isn't addressed to me, but i have to say that you may not see yourself as a Christian, but you do have to realize that you would never have heard of Jesus if the Bible was never presented to you, ergo the teachings would not be from Jesus then. What you didn't realize is that the teachings of goodness and love is from humans, nothing special. You might already knew that of course, but the thing is, you are taking pieces of the Bible you want while rejecting most of it, as all other Christians do.

Quote
Yes I can only use the bible for a source for Jesus.  It is also the source of other Jewish history.  It is a totally different read if you read it not believing it is divine/holy.

What you might not realize is that the Old Testament is not the Christian doctrine, only the New. Jews did not believe in Jesus or the concepts of hell as Christians do. You might already knew this, but yet, despite that, you are saying you're a believer of intelligent design. Which strikes me curious when i read your first post. What exactly is it about the intelligent design you believe in? I for one think the world is never designed. Too many flaws within the human body doesn't make it sound like there's an intelligent design.

Quote
I will try to be more patient with you as you try to understand me.  If this doesn't help I will try and try until you get me. 

I've got to go for now. Take care.  Have a good evening.

Well i am curious to understand you as well as i feel perplexed with your posts.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jdawg70 on June 25, 2013, 08:05:15 PM
I think part of the problem is you don't understand the relationship I have with Jesus; I don't.  I am not a Christian, a fact that I have repeatedly stated.  I am open minded about the whole story.  For me I have chosen to live a life of peace and love.  I have found inspiration for that journey in the teachings of Jesus, Gandhi, Martin Luther King and many other non violent demonstrators.

Yes I can only use the bible for a source for Jesus.  It is also the source of other Jewish history.  It is a totally different read if you read it not believing it is divine/holy.

I will try to be more patient with you as you try to understand me.  If this doesn't help I will try and try until you get me. 

I've got to go for now. Take care.  Have a good evening.
Thank you for being patient.

I'm going to try to summarize how I understand some of your beliefs.  I think I'm still a little murky, so I'm bound to make some errors here so forgive that.

You take the bible to be an old book that has descriptions that are accurate (perhaps not precise), though it is neither a text of the quality of a history book (contains fantastical stories and untrue elements and events) nor a divinely written or inspired work.  You believe that a divine entity 'Jesus' (not really sure about this one; I'm basing this off of your claims of having a current, active relationship with this entity) is, in some way, referenced in this book (either as The Messiah as described, as a character based upon the real 'Jesus' entity, or some other means).  The information that you have on Jesus' character (be it concrete information or some 'intuitive' sense of knowing) is not informed by the bible, but rather informed through your life experiences as a whole.

The 'god' entity described in the bible is not related to the actual 'god' entity, or if so, it is a tangential relation at best (both biblegod and the 'god' you refer to as creators of the world for example).

Questions at this point:
Is there any way you can more specifically how it is you 'know', 'think', or 'intuit' this information you have regarding Jesus and/or god?  A general descriptor of 'life experience' is difficult to simply accept - we all have life experiences, and we all have come to very different bits of mutually-exclusive information.


The world (is it fair to simply say 'reality' instead of 'the world'?) appears to be designed by some intelligent means, and this intelligent means necessarily stems from some sentience.  This is enough to suggest to you that the best, most parsimonious explanation is that some intelligent sentience created, through undiscovered or undiscoverable means, instantiated the world and continues to act in it but inside the will of other sentient entities.  This 'interaction' manifests itself as emotional and/or intuitive senses but not in some manner like direct interaction with the physical 'essence' (matter, energy, space, time, etc.).


Questions at this point:
I think the obvious question is - surely by whatever criteria you deem as sufficient to claim the world/reality designed apply to the sentience proposed.  In essence the answer simply rewords the question - replace 'world' or 'reality' with 'god' but nothing else of value is accomplished.

Further, I have a pretty big gap in understanding still as to how Jesus and god relate.  Could you explain that?  Start at a 'high-level' if you like and we can drill down into more detail if I'm still not quite understanding you.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on June 26, 2013, 07:02:34 AM
As a confessed SPAGer and Cherry Picker I find that I am throwing out more and more cherries lately.

Here is a site I have been reading a lot that I think Jag pointed me to.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ken_daniels/why.html#Christian

There's a cure, you know? ;)

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on June 26, 2013, 07:12:37 AM
This was probably added by the author to protect his life.

Junebug's an apologist. but if this is discounted then everything can be. the Bible can't be trusted for what Jesus actually stated therefore Jesus stated nothing and therefore never existed. Junebug obviously supports this by her statement.

Quote
Jesus clearly did come to change the law or why even come.

To fulfill it?

Quote
The whole story is Jesus denouncing the "old ways".

How?

Quote
The washing of hands, stoning, judging, long prayers in long robes. Even the simplest law of the Sabbath. I believe the author feared that he would suffer the same fate as Jesus if he did not change the message.

Sure.


Quote
I never said to obey Jesus.  Not sure Jesus did either. 

John 14:23

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on June 26, 2013, 07:41:05 AM
I'm going to respond to jdawg, William, Samothec and Timtheskeptic with this post.

First welcome to the discussion Tim.

Jdawg, I clearly told you I do not have a relationship with Jesus.  So why turn around and say that I do? 

1st question-We all have life experiences but not the same ones.  Mine has been very different from yours and so on and so on. I know you must be aware of this.

When you read the bible without belief in it's divinity/holiness it is a different read.

Why would you say that intelligence stems from sentience?  I would think it the other way around.  Sentience stems from intelligence. 

2nd question-I believe Jesus was close to God.  The authors of his story are human and their interpretation may be exaggerated.  For instance, the virgin birth, walking on water, healing, rising from the dead and turning water into wine.  See I am familiar with human nature and I don't know, when I read the bible with this in mind it stands out to me. 

Jesus is so much greater as a man than a demi-god. 

Timtheskeptic,

You will never understand me as long as you define me as a Christian.  Just because I've been inspired by a few verses?  That does not make me a Christian.  It makes me inspired by a few verses.

This is for all of the above. It's like a need at this point to me for you to insist that I'm Christian.  Do you think this would discredit me in some way?  If you could just prove I'm Christian then my views are moot?  I think that's what this is.  I can think of no other reason why someone would insist I am what I say I am not.

I capitalize the name of God because it is a name.  To show respect to the Creator.  I have no other name.  We are all familiar with this name.

William,

There is both beauty and blood in this world.  The landscape being the most beautiful. 

The antelope's mother will not grieve over her young as would a human.  She continues to run away from the hyenas.  She does not stay and fight them off.  Yes other species will try to protect their young but it's not due to emotional attachment it is instinctual.  I believe God spared the animals emotions because of their place in the cycle of life. 

I've got to go for now.  Having some pain in my biopsy area. Take care.

Good morning Nam.   ;D  I am not an apologist either. 
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: William on June 26, 2013, 10:49:06 AM
I believe God spared the animals emotions because of their place in the cycle of life. 

Please Junebug72, I beg you go spend some real time with animals, or speak to some animal handlers.  Animals are a bag of emotions - that's almost all they have really - emotions!  Some of the more evolved animals have limited cognitive powers, however all but the most basic of creatures do not lack obvious emotions.  Emotional systems are essential for their social interactions, and their reactive states to threats and opportunities such as rivals, predators, food and mates.  Basically their survival depends on having the right emotional responses to relevant stimuli - emotions govern their behaviours.  They also communicate emotions through body language, sounds and scents.

At the very least you should google studies about animals showing empathy.


Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jdawg70 on June 26, 2013, 11:16:46 AM
Jdawg, I clearly told you I do not have a relationship with Jesus.  So why turn around and say that I do? 
Apologies - I misread/misunderstood what you had wrote.  I read it as you saying that I don't understand the relationship you have with Jesus, and that you don't necessarily understand your relationship with him either (it's a viewpoint I've seen a number of times - claims of a personal relationship with Jesus but of a kind that cannot be articulated in any sort of way).
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1st question-We all have life experiences but not the same ones.  Mine has been very different from yours and so on and so on. I know you must be aware of this.
I'm not sure this addresses the meat of my question - yes, we do have very different experiences.  The question is why there are so many disparate, mutually exclusive viewpoints and understandings on a subject like 'the existence of an person called Jesus' and the nature of that entity therein (i.e. divinity, salvation, simple preacher, etc.).  That's why I'm saying that simply saying "my life experiences have informed upon me that Jesus of Nazareth existed and had the following qualities" is insufficient to understand how it is you came to believe that Jesus did indeed exist.
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When you read the bible without belief in it's divinity/holiness it is a different read.
Yup.
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Why would you say that intelligence stems from sentience?  I would think it the other way around.  Sentience stems from intelligence. 
I suspect that neither of us will get very far if we start trying to define intelligence in a specific way, so I'll go ahead and just concede this.  With the assumption that sentience stems from intelligence, what leads you to leap that the intelligence that you feel is apparent in the creation of reality has sentient characteristics (i.e. loving, willfulness, etc.)?
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2nd question-I believe Jesus was close to God.  The authors of his story are human and their interpretation may be exaggerated.  For instance, the virgin birth, walking on water, healing, rising from the dead and turning water into wine.  See I am familiar with human nature and I don't know, when I read the bible with this in mind it stands out to me. 

Jesus is so much greater as a man than a demi-god. 
So when you say "Jesus was close to god", I take it to mean that Jesus was more 'in tuned' to god, or has a better understanding of god's ways more than others?  Or something like that at least...if you could give more clarity here I think it would help...

I'm going to try a re-summary of how I understand your views and beliefs again.  Same caveats apply from last time:

You take the bible to be an old book that has some historical descriptions that are accurate (perhaps not precise), though it is neither a text of the quality of a history book (contains fantastical stories and untrue elements and events) nor a divinely written or inspired work.  You believe that man named 'Jesus' is, in some way, referenced in this book, though for the most part is a caricature of the actual 'Jesus'.  The information that you have on Jesus' character (be it concrete information or some 'intuitive' sense of knowing) is not informed by the bible, but rather informed through your life experiences as a whole.

The man Jesus is an ideal to aspire towards.  Actions and words attributed to him in the bible may or may not be accurate, but again, the truth of his existence and aspects of his general character are things that you've learned of through life experiences as a whole.

The 'god' entity described in the bible is not related to the actual 'god' entity, or if so, it is a tangential relation at best (both biblegod and the 'god' you refer to as creators of the world for example).

The world (is it fair to simply say 'reality' instead of 'the world'?) appears to be designed by some intelligent means.  This is enough to suggest to you that the best, most parsimonious explanation is that some intelligent sentience created, through undiscovered or undiscoverable means, instantiated the world and continues to act in it but inside the will of other sentient entities.  This 'interaction' manifests itself as emotional and/or intuitive senses but not in some manner like direct interaction with the physical 'essence' (matter, energy, space, time, etc.).


Questions:
I'm still unclear as to how you've derived some aspects of Jesus' character or teachings.  If none of it is informed from the bible (and maybe some of it is), where do you get your ideas that Jesus is an exemplary example of a human to strive to be like?  Where do you get your idea that Jesus is, in some way, close to god?

Could you explain how you get from 'reality looks to be designed by an intelligence' to 'the intelligence responsible for designing reality has sentience'?  The gap there is a bit wide for me right now.  Does sentience necessarily stem from intelligence?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Timtheskeptic on June 26, 2013, 12:12:10 PM
I believe God spared the animals emotions because of their place in the cycle of life. 

Please Junebug72, I beg you go spend some real time with animals, or speak to some animal handlers.  Animals are a bag of emotions - that's almost all they have really - emotions!  Some of the more evolved animals have limited cognitive powers, however all but the most basic of creatures do not lack obvious emotions.  Emotional systems are essential for their social interactions, and their reactive states to threats and opportunities such as rivals, predators, food and mates.  Basically their survival depends on having the right emotional responses to relevant stimuli - emotions govern their behaviours.  They also communicate emotions through body language, sounds and scents.

At the very least you should google studies about animals showing empathy.

I concur William, animals are capable of empathy and emotions June, and we as human beings descended from common ancestors with apes, we're animals too and with emotions and empathy. No animal were "spared of emotions." We're all part of the way of life as with the rest of the animal kingdom.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Timtheskeptic on June 26, 2013, 12:22:55 PM
I'm going to respond to jdawg, William, Samothec and Timtheskeptic with this post.

First welcome to the discussion Tim.

Why thank you, June.

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Timtheskeptic,

You will never understand me as long as you define me as a Christian.  Just because I've been inspired by a few verses?  That does not make me a Christian.  It makes me inspired by a few verses.

Actually i think it does, but i am capable of understanding you so don't put words in my mouth. What it seems like June is that you decided that some parts of the Bible is worth listening to such as the teachings of Jesus.

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This is for all of the above. It's like a need at this point to me for you to insist that I'm Christian.  Do you think this would discredit me in some way?

It's not to discredit you, but it seem like you are trying to split apart what you want to have away from religion. Kind of like trying to take out Darth Vader from Star Wars or Gandalf from Lord of the Rings.

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  If you could just prove I'm Christian then my views are moot?  I think that's what this is.  I can think of no other reason why someone would insist I am what I say I am not.


Enlighten me June, i know you said that you do listen to other teachings as well that you feel agreeable to. The thing is, you believe in the bible or at least what some things have been said.

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The antelope's mother will not grieve over her young as would a human.  She continues to run away from the hyenas.  She does not stay and fight them off.  Yes other species will try to protect their young but it's not due to emotional attachment it is instinctual.  I believe God spared the animals emotions because of their place in the cycle of life. 

Animals do have emotions and empathy. I suggest taking more closer look at the animals. Do you have any pets June? They do show characteristics of emotions and empathy. While i don't think one should anthropomorphize animals with human characteristics, they do however feel empathy and emotions. We as human beings are animals as well and the reason we seem more advanced is because of our capacity to reason.

Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on June 28, 2013, 05:24:56 AM
Jdawg, I don't know how you misunderstood,"I do not have a relationship with Jesus."  I understand that, I'm sorry you do not.  I haven't failed to explain it, others understand.  Their minds are not clouded with fog.

I have seen enough documentaries to know the mother antelope keeps running.  I have never seen an animal outside the human race cry.  I've heard a domesticated dog whine for his master but I've never seen tears.  I don't deny animals have some feelings but they are not as strong as human emotions.

William please learn how to properly apply the word dodge, I didn't dodge you I gave you my interpretation of your pictures.  It's not very nice to say someone did something they didn't do.  I will not do this to you so please do not do it to me. 



Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: One Above All on June 28, 2013, 05:32:05 AM
I have never seen an animal outside the human race cry.

Then it's because you didn't do enough research.
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll163/tracyhcole/ANIMAL%20RIGHTS/crying-horse.jpg)
(http://gallery.photo.net/photo/8149113-lg.jpg)
(http://www.savebabe.com/images/Crying-Sow.jpg)
(http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/warapatrs/warapatrs1207/warapatrs120700029/14475776-the-cow-crying-because-he-thing-he-will-die-tomorrow.jpg)
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: The Gawd on June 28, 2013, 05:52:59 AM
Well I think I know where my belief comes from better than you. 

This is no different from me saying they really believe they just say they don't.  I could say what I want about you, it does not make it true.   If I say I do not base my belief on the bible, I do not, and I find it most arrogant for any of you to say otherwise.  If my belief was bible based I would believe I was condemned to hell along with everybody here.

Do I agree with some of Jesus's teachings, yes I do.  I believe in some Buddhist teachings, I believe in some Native American teachings.  There is plenty of sources that influence my belief.  What I find critical is that I consider the consequences and not follow blindly. 

Ancient Toltec knowledge is what I live my life by.  Take that and really stick it in your ear. 

I am not a liar.
I did not call you a liar. You just simply dont know about what youre talking about.
Whether Jesus existed or not is immaterial to where you got your belief in him from. Fact still remains that the only places to get this Jesus myth are holy books, namely the bible. ITS THE ONLY PLACE. So if you believe in Jesus you get it from the bible (or Koran I suppose) plain and simple. Now, you may have cherry picked other religions like you do Christianity, but that doesnt make you any less a Christian (someone who believes in the Jesus myth).

Jesus didnt come to you. You didnt learn about "Jesus' teachings" in a history book. You either got them from the bible, or someone else who got them from the bible. I'm going to insist that you think critically.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: William on June 28, 2013, 08:31:22 AM
William please learn how to properly apply the word dodge, I didn't dodge you I gave you my interpretation of your pictures.  It's not very nice to say someone did something they didn't do.  I will not do this to you so please do not do it to me.

 :) Okay let's rewind the tape a bit and have a look at it. 
But first let me say I admire the way you've stayed in the conversation and kept up with so many people posting.  I thank you for that and admire your tenacity and effort.

However, I think we got our signals a bit crossed here because the "dodge" in question was not in relation to the pictures I posted  :)

Straight after the pictures in post #51 (which even I find confronting) I made another post #52 dealing with a separate issue from your statement in post #50, i.e.:
Any Christian that claims homosexuality an abomination is following OT doctrine.

In response to that I gave you Matthew 5:17-18.  This to me is like a killer bazooka rocket shot to any argument claiming the old testament is "old".  Jesus (if we are to believe in him) is saying emphatically that the old testament is valid in every respect - every jot and tittle!  There is no way I can see to interpret that other than literally.  And btw if that is not convincing enough I can add the idea that God himself didn't change between the OT and the NT - it must be the same sky daddy before and after.  So Jesus is right to say God's laws from before are applicable at that time (there was no NT till many decades later) and into the future to the end of the universe. 

How can a moral concept about homosexuality conveyed by God himself suddenly change because a fragment of God turned up as Jesus?  It can't - do you agree?  The writings about Jesus may have added a kinder approach and some additional wisdom to the story - but Jesus can't contradict God i.e. himself and still be the same God as before.

So now in response to my retort using Matthew 5:17-18 your reply in post #59 was:
This was probably added by the author to protect his life.  Jesus clearly did come to change the law or why even come.  The whole story is Jesus denouncing the "old ways".   The washing of hands, stoning, judging, long prayers in long robes. Even the simplest law of the Sabbath. I believe the author feared that he would suffer the same fate as Jesus if he did not change the message.

(See how this is nothing to do with the pictures    :angel: - don't worry I do not blame you for getting confused or getting upset with me due to the misunderstanding - you're showing a lot of courage to stand up to so many atheists simultaneously.)

This is a different part of our exchange and there is indeed a very cute little dodge executed by you when you bring in the excusiology that the "author" might write something untrue about Jesus because the "author" was in fear.  How convenient hey!?  Next print of the Bible should have a little asterisk with a footnote saying: "Junebug grants you permission to ignore this verse."  :laugh:

It fails to address the problem that God = God(+Jesus), before and after.

There is no basis for saying the author was in fear, and so changed what he/she is reporting Jesus to have said.  There is also no basis for saying Jesus would lie at that point because he may have been in fear - his mission on earth was to get slayed for telling the truth, not to dodge a bullet and confuse everyone thereafter.

But wait, we are now debating about the contorted contradictory plot of a fictional work as if it were true and consistent. I agree with your proposition in the OP that: "The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!" 

But I take it one step further: "The fictional Yahweh character is a disgrace to humankind, and a disgrace to some of the wonderful ideas developed by the early Jesus cult - which some authors decades later sought to embellish with their own philosophies and weave into the Yahweh myth for consumption by the superstitious people of that era."

Jesus was probably a very nice guy.  It's a pity his story is forever hijacked and infected by the filthy myth of Yahweh.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jdawg70 on June 28, 2013, 08:44:39 AM
Jdawg, I don't know how you misunderstood,"I do not have a relationship with Jesus."  I understand that, I'm sorry you do not.
I did attempt to explain the source of my misunderstanding.  If that explanation is unsatisfactory we can just go with "I'm stupid" - I'm more than fine with admitting that.

Did I get the rest of my summation of your beliefs right, or even in the ballpark?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Samothec on June 29, 2013, 03:23:07 AM
I'm going to respond to jdawg, William, Samothec and Timtheskeptic with this post.
...
This is for all of the above. It's like a need at this point to me for you to insist that I'm Christian.  Do you think this would discredit me in some way?  If you could just prove I'm Christian then my views are moot?  I think that's what this is.  I can think of no other reason why someone would insist I am what I say I am not.

I capitalize the name of God because it is a name.  To show respect to the Creator.  I have no other name.  We are all familiar with this name.

Seriously? This is your response to my post (#60 above)? Sigh. It's like you didn't even read it - at all. In fact, I can't see anything that supports the idea that you read it since I explained what you question here. I had begun to think there was a chance to talk and reason with you. Now, not so much.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: kcrady on June 29, 2013, 07:57:28 AM
Hi Junebug,

I'm curious to know why you think that your god was not able to exercise any editorial control over the content of the Bible.  Let's say that someone tried to publish a book entitled Junebug: Child Molester; Cannibal filled with false accusations of "your" brutality and lists of atrocities you "committed."  I think it is very safe to say that you would act to the extent of your abilities to prevent such a book from being published (sue the author and publishers for libel, etc.) or at the very least do all in your power to get an indisputably accurate response out.  An entity capable of crafting bacterial flagella (and pretty much everything else) would almost certainly be capable of either preventing a few misguided humans from misrepresenting his nature, or providing a counter-argument that was indisputably from him.  Given that you define him as "loving" in addition to being "an Intelligent Designer," that leads to the anticipated consequence that he would not want the humans he seeks to love to be terrified of him or become convinced that he's a monster.  So why do you think that he was not able to employ his intelligence and capabilities to finding a solution to "the Bible Problem?"
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on June 29, 2013, 09:39:28 AM
[
This was probably added by the author to protect his life.

quote author=Nam link=topic=25104.msg560513#msg560513 date=1372248757]
Junebug's an apologist. but if this is discounted then everything can be. the Bible can't be trusted for what Jesus actually stated therefore Jesus stated nothing and therefore never existed. Junebug obviously supports this by her statement..[/quote]

You would have to read it in the same mind frame as I did to understand that.  There is always truth and fiction possible in those stories.  I try to distinguish the two

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Jesus clearly did come to change the law or why even come.

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NAM-To fulfill it?

To change it, and he did.

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The whole story is Jesus denouncing the "old ways".

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Nam-How?


I'm not going to read it for you. Matt. 23:1-39, that's one example, and there are others.  When the crowd pickedup their stones to throw at the prostitute Jesus said let the first man here w/o sin throw the first stone.

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The washing of hands, stoning, judging, long prayers in long robes. Even the simplest law of the Sabbath. I believe the author feared that he would suffer the same fate as Jesus if he did not change the message.


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I never said to obey Jesus.  Not sure Jesus did either. 

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Nam-John 14:23-Nam

All I heard Jesus say was to keep my words, We all agree that hasn't been done.  The words are twisted to suit the needs and desires of man.  That's why they're fruit is rotten.

The words are simple, love one another as I have loved you.  Forgive and be forgiven.

Well there's more on my ideas of how Christianity does not fulfill the Love of Jesus.


I'll get back to this 1 later.

Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: The Gawd on June 29, 2013, 09:56:41 AM
Where did you get these stories about Jesus from JB?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: William on June 29, 2013, 10:19:49 AM
When the crowd pickedup their stones to throw at the prostitute Jesus said let the first man here w/o sin throw the first stone.

This not overturning God's established laws, only changing who should enforce them.  Jesus didn't say it's morally wrong to stone a prostitute, he only put the spotlight on the hypocrisy of people who wanted to stone her.

The problem I see with this passage is that Jesus didn't obey his Father (also himself), because Jesus was apparently without sin, so should've obeyed himself and chucked the first rock himself.  He actually invited anyone without sin to chuck away - but didn't do it himself.  I wonder what sin Jesus had committed that excluded himself from righteous rock chucking - by his own standards?  :?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: median on June 29, 2013, 10:40:15 AM
Why would you be so gullible as to believe anything the bible says? It's all hear-say. You don't know for sure there even WAS a Jesus, let alone that he actually said any of those things. This is just credulity.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on June 30, 2013, 05:53:30 AM
]
I did not call you a liar. You just simply dont know about what youre talking about.
Whether Jesus existed or not is immaterial to where you got your belief in him from. Fact still remains that the only places to get this Jesus myth are holy books, namely the bible. ITS THE ONLY PLACE. So if you believe in Jesus you get it from the bible (or Koran I suppose) plain and simple. Now, you may have cherry picked other religions like you do Christianity, but that doesnt make you any less a Christian (someone who believes in the Jesus myth).

Jesus didnt come to you. You didnt learn about "Jesus' teachings" in a history book. You either got them from the bible, or someone else who got them from the bible. I'm going to insist that you think critically.

I am talking about myself.  I know me pretty darn good.  I have not denied that my knowledge of Jesus, real or not, derives from the bible.  You are the one that can not figure out how to think outside the box.

You are all like" Christianity bible god is so wicked and puny so god does not exist." BS!  Christians, Jesus's followers, fail at the love, and judge not parts, so God does not exist.  Well for a critical thinker as myself, I say that's pretty lame evidence for such an humongerous mystery.  I say all the stories of ancient past are strange but they have one thing in common.  They believed there was a power out of our control that we depend on for our existence.  An Awesome, Intelligent Power that produces life.  They came up with rituals, religions and traditions to honor the Source of life.  Seems history tells us that the rituals, religions and traditions were in vain for most.  Then there comes the Christian Religion.  Very profitable and deceivingly moral.  It still boils down to human opinions. 

My opinion is that the Source of our life Loves us and is bound by celestial laws that we are not aware of.  The laws that make time and space possible.
I feel the spirit inside of my fleshly walls.  I feel connected with The Source of life and when I am free of this flesh I will return to that same source to be held accountable for my life; justly and fairly.  I have no idea what heaven is, for me it would be my family and friends there making music, dancing on stars and helping on earth if that's allowed.  As awesome as earth is I Imagine Heaven way more glorious, splentastical, than earth.  Maybe it's an earth without all the suffering of this one.  No pain, sadness, hunger, poverty, death!  For the greedy and violent ones another round of this earth.

See I look at it like this.  I take the best of mankind's qualities multiply x's 10,000,000 or more and that's God to me.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on June 30, 2013, 08:29:45 AM
Where did you get these stories about Jesus from JB?

Her mind. She just makes this shit up as she goes, which is all in her mind.

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: The Gawd on June 30, 2013, 09:12:20 AM
I am talking about myself.  I know me pretty darn good.  I have not denied that my knowledge of Jesus, real or not, derives from the bible.  You are the one that can not figure out how to think outside the box.

If you know the bible is BS why would you take your Jesus belief from it? There is nothing to think outside the box about. Thinking outside the box has nothing to do with whether the bible has ANY truth to it at all. You have an unreliable book, you should treat the ENTIRE thing with extreme skepticism. You have not done that with your Jesus belief (though I do applaud you for at least admitting its unknown whether he existed).

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You are all like" Christianity bible god is so wicked and puny so god does not exist." BS!  Christians, Jesus's followers, fail at the love, and judge not parts, so God does not exist.  Well for a critical thinker as myself, I say that's pretty lame evidence for such an humongerous mystery.  I say all the stories of ancient past are strange but they have one thing in common.  They believed there was a power out of our control that we depend on for our existence.  An Awesome, Intelligent Power that produces life.  They came up with rituals, religions and traditions to honor the Source of life.  Seems history tells us that the rituals, religions and traditions were in vain for most.  Then there comes the Christian Religion.  Very profitable and deceivingly moral.  It still boils down to human opinions. 

No, you got the argument ALL WRONG. Yes the god of the bible is wicked and equally puny and worthless, but that is not evidence of its non-existence. Evidence for its non-existence is that it has literally zero measurable affect on the REAL world. The descriptions of the bible god contradict themselves, thus it is EASY to disregard its existence as easy as it is to disregard the existence of a married bachelor or nine sided square. By definition it cannot exist. Since Jesus is bible god, himself and his dad, and we know bible god doesn't exist...........

The reason ancient people believed in gods is because they didn't know stuff. Things they didn't know were caused by gods until they knew about them. Bad weather? gods did it. But you already in the other thread admitted that weather was due to natural causes. Why would you accept the scribblings of people who would be no more informed than today's first grader as some sort of authority on anything, especially in the face of facts to the contrary?

I understand your disdain for Christianity, but believing in Jesus makes one what? I'll let you answer.

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My opinion is that the Source of our life Loves us and is bound by celestial laws that we are not aware of.  The laws that make time and space possible.
I feel the spirit inside of my fleshly walls.  I feel connected with The Source of life and when I am free of this flesh I will return to that same source to be held accountable for my life; justly and fairly.  I have no idea what heaven is, for me it would be my family and friends there making music, dancing on stars and helping on earth if that's allowed.  As awesome as earth is I Imagine Heaven way more glorious, splentastical, than earth.  Maybe it's an earth without all the suffering of this one.  No pain, sadness, hunger, poverty, death!  For the greedy and violent ones another round of this earth.

See I look at it like this.  I take the best of mankind's qualities multiply x's 10,000,000 or more and that's God to me.
Here you are doing EXACTLY what the writers of the bible are doing, until you can demonstrate this stuff I have no reason to pay it any more credence than I do the bible. It all sounds like non-sense when you apply it to the real world. You have simply just typed out The Bible According to Junebug or The Book of Junebug, no difference.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: median on June 30, 2013, 10:03:00 AM
You are all like" Christianity bible god is so wicked and puny so god does not exist." BS!  Christians, Jesus's followers, fail at the love, and judge not parts, so God does not exist. 

NOPE. We haven't said this AT-ALL. So you are misrepresenting our position. What we have said is that there is no good reason for thinking there is a god and that the time to believe a claim is AFTER sufficient evidence has been demonstrated (and not before). Please get our position right next time.

Regarding the Yahweh god of the bible, yes, many of us have argued that this god cannot exist (due to the fact that it holds simultaneously self-contradictory traits, such as perfect justice and perfect mercy, or being all-powerful but allowing evil). 

Then there comes the Christian Religion.  Very profitable and deceivingly moral.  It still boils down to human opinions. 

Wrong again. On the contrary, it DOES NOT just come down to opinion. What IT comes down to is the difference between those who are credulous and believe things on bad/no evidence vs. those who wait until the evidence comes in (and what can be demonstrated) before making any judgments, at all.

Christianity moral?

Teaching people (including children) to be intolerant of homosexuals (or anyone who disagrees)
Teaching people (including children) that sex before marriage means God is mad at you (shame)
Teaching children to ignore scientific evidence and "just have faith" in Jesus
Giving people a false hope that God will answer their prayers (amputees, cancer patients, etc)
Teaching people that condom use is a sin, and evil
Rationalizing endless wars/violence/inquisitions, etc
Teaching people that the end is near (Jesus will return soon) and to not care about tomorrow
Propagating and promoting the disregard for evidence with the rationalization of "faith"

No, just no. These are not moral.


I feel the spirit inside of my fleshly walls.  I feel connected with The Source of life and when I am free of this flesh I will return to that same source to be held accountable for my life; justly and fairly. 

Feelings are not truth, and just because you think you "feel" something doesn't, in any way, mean you are correct in your interpretation of what you think you are feeling. This is why we have demonstrable science, with the use of critical reason and evidence, in order to separate fact from fiction. Making a self-prognosis doesn't do anything but prop up your own personal biases. Once again, you are quite mistaken. It is NOT just all about opinions. Separating fact from fiction often requires hard work, dedication, attention to detail, peer review, critical thinking, and checking for confirmation bias. Are you doing any of these things in order to protect yourself from false positives? It doesn't seem so.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Timtheskeptic on June 30, 2013, 11:44:09 AM


I am talking about myself.  I know me pretty darn good.  I have not denied that my knowledge of Jesus, real or not, derives from the bible.  You are the one that can not figure out how to think outside the box.

On the contrary June, when you decided that Jesus’ teachings is so valuable to you, you chose to listen to parts of the Bible. You may not think of yourself as a Christian, but you are because you believe in Jesus. You’re not the only Christian who chooses to split the Jesus from the Bible. It just sounds like to me a lot of the Christians are afraid of realizing something about their religion and starts going, “I have a personal relationship with Jesus, Christianity is not a religion.”

Quote
You are all like" Christianity bible god is so wicked and puny so god does not exist." BS!  Christians, Jesus's followers, fail at the love, and judge not parts, so God does not exist.  Well for a critical thinker as myself, I say that's pretty lame evidence for such an humongerous mystery.  I say all the stories of ancient past are strange but they have one thing in common.  They believed there was a power out of our control that we depend on for our existence.  An Awesome, Intelligent Power that produces life.  They came up with rituals, religions and traditions to honor the Source of life.  Seems history tells us that the rituals, religions and traditions were in vain for most.  Then there comes the Christian Religion.  Very profitable and deceivingly moral.  It still boils down to human opinions. 

Well, the God is a viciously, wicked, megalomaniacal deity according to what the Bible says. The thing is, it’s not that the God is horrid is why I don’t believe he exists, it’s just that there’s no evidence. Profitable and deceivingly moral? Hardly moral at all. It is indeed from human point of views and opinions of their religious beliefs.

Let me ask you something June, does it make sense to want to pull away Luke Skywalker from Star Wars and throw away the rest of it? If by pulling Jesus from the Bible, it has no legs to stand because it is entirely from the Bible. All of the teachings, all of the things about Jesus is solely from the Bible, nowhere else.

Quote
My opinion is that the Source of our life Loves us and is bound by celestial laws that we are not aware of.  The laws that make time and space possible.
I feel the spirit inside of my fleshly walls.  I feel connected with The Source of life and when I am free of this flesh I will return to that same source to be held accountable for my life; justly and fairly.  I have no idea what heaven is, for me it would be my family and friends there making music, dancing on stars and helping on earth if that's allowed.  As awesome as earth is I Imagine Heaven way more glorious, splentastical, than earth.  Maybe it's an earth without all the suffering of this one.  No pain, sadness, hunger, poverty, death!  For the greedy and violent ones another round of this earth.

Well that sounds like a sweet thought, but it doesn’t make it factual. For all you know, there just might not be a Heaven or anything after death.

Quote
See I look at it like this.  I take the best of mankind's qualities multiply x's 10,000,000 or more and that's God to me.

So what you’re saying is that the quality of man is all attributed or a work of some God? I may be wrong here but are you saying that from tens of thousands of years from short lifespan, little education, little technology, high mortality rate by disease and predators to long lifespan, high level of education, advanced technologies,  and more was by God and not by the hard work of another person?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on July 01, 2013, 06:58:25 PM
Junebug,

You smited me recently for stating that your belief does not come from the Bible. If you believe in Jesus then your belief comes from the Bible.

So for future reference: any other smites you give me better be worth giving, and not based on your insanity of logic.

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 04, 2013, 07:42:56 AM
I do not have a belief in Jesus as my God.

I entertain the notion that Jesus was a man just like you that gave his life so that many generations would not suffer the same as previous generations.  I read it with an open mind and try to place myself in the time period the story transpired.  It is not unreasonable to presume that this heroes story was embellished for manipulation purposes.  This point of view is not at all Christian so drop it already.  There is nothing you could ever say to me to convince me that I am Christian.  What you convince yourself does matter to me.  I want you to understand who I really am not what you've concocted in your relentless attempt to prove me Christian.

I'm sure that would makes things easier for you because you're familiar with taking down the Christian.  Well I am not a Christian and I intend to be much harder to break. 

As far as animals having emotions.  OneGod, Eyes have a tendency to water in sick and dying animals.  I never meant to imply that I think animals are completely w/o emotions.  My opinion is they are not as intense as human emotions and weaken as you get lower on the food chain.  Did not see any flies, ants, cockroaches, ticks or fleas, any fish, snakes or crocs.  I do not see the families of those poor animals hovered around crying over their pending deaths.  No doubt imposed by a human that needs more emotional content.

William,

I appreciate your delicate analogy of the so called dodge but I still refute it.  I gave you my honest analysis of what I think.  You can disagree with that all you like and that's OK but what you can't do is say I've done something I haven't.  I haven't dodged anybody here. 

I've had a very rough couple of weeks.  Speaking of rough...

Hey Nam.  How ya doing?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 04, 2013, 08:08:39 AM
Junebug,

You smited me recently for stating that your belief does not come from the Bible. If you believe in Jesus then your belief comes from the Bible.

So for future reference: any other smites you give me better be worth giving, and not based on your insanity of logic.

-Nam

I almost smote you again.  Every time you say this you are wrong. 

I like what Yoda says to Luke Skywalker,"there is no try only do".  Those words inspire me.  I say it to my son all the time.  I draw inspiration from fiction all the time.  So what if I think Jesus was a real person, I do not claim knowledge of his Godliness, only that "if" real was a great man.  I don't believe in hell and I think if you're a good man you will have a good afterlife despite your atheism, not Christian.  I say the bible is a disgrace to God and buddy that is so unchristian it makes me NOT A CHRISTIAN.  THERE IS NOTHING I WOULD LIKE TO SEE MORE THAN CHRISTIANS MINDING THEIR OWN BUSINESS or actually live up to their leader's teachings. 

It's called spiritual not religious.  Get used to it because we are a growing population.  I've posted links before that collaborates what I just said.  You're going to have a much harder time picking that apart.

Take care
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 04, 2013, 09:18:25 AM
I'm going to respond to jdawg, William, Samothec and Timtheskeptic with this post.
...
This is for all of the above. It's like a need at this point to me for you to insist that I'm Christian.  Do you think this would discredit me in some way?  If you could just prove I'm Christian then my views are moot?  I think that's what this is.  I can think of no other reason why someone would insist I am what I say I am not.

I capitalize the name of God because it is a name.  To show respect to the Creator.  I have no other name.  We are all familiar with this name.

Seriously? This is your response to my post (#60 above)? Sigh. It's like you didn't even read it - at all. In fact, I can't see anything that supports the idea that you read it since I explained what you question here. I had begun to think there was a chance to talk and reason with you. Now, not so much.

I'm sorry Sam I didn't mean to.  Your post was very well written and you're right it deserves a better response.  As far as ID only coming from the bible;you're article does suggest that.  Only it makes more sense to me that ID came before the bible.  Someone had the idea before writing it down.  All the attributes the biblical authors assigned to God is their interpretation.  All that I say is mine.  Our belief in a powerful source of life comes from the mind not a book.  With more knowledge at my disposal my interpretation should be different. 

I'm not a sloppy thinker or writer.  I know my writing skills are not perfect but I'm quite fond of the way I think.  My English classes taught me to capitalize proper names.  I could call my interpretation of this power, The Great Scientist.  I don't believe The Great Scientist willed anything into existence but built it with the elements of the universe and an endless supply of intelligence.  I like "God" better so I'm sticking with that.  People would understand me fine w/o their blinders on.  If for one minute their motive was to understand me not to contradict me.  Only once there is an honest understanding of me can a true conversation begin. 

You say you don't begrudge me of my Loving Creator but yet feel the need to "reason" with me.  :?

Maybe I should just give up and join the church already!!!  &)  Oh that's right I'd have to give up my Sweet Love for that.  Not gonna happen.  Sometimes I capitalize for fun. 

If I'm going to be a lesbian Christian that changes Christianity and it should be right up there in the news so that everybody knows that gays are now welcome to be gay by the Christian community and will not face eternal hell fire.  As atheist you should understand better than anybody why I am not a Christian follower.  You have your rights and I have the same.  I don't have to name my belief and neither do any of you. 

Take care

Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on July 04, 2013, 10:19:17 AM
Junebug,

A Christian is a follower of Christ. If you believe that Jesus is Christ then that makes you a Christian. However, the first place Jesus is mentioned is in the books of the Bible, New Testament. If you believe he is the Christ, then that was first mentioned in the Old Testament.

Jesus teachings come from the New and the Old Testament since that's the only place his words are mentioned[1] (minus the books that were left out of the NT).

So, when you say the Bible is a disgrace, you are also saying that Jesus is a disgrace unless you can show that he said anything in any other text that predates the books in the Bible.

Can you? Of course not because there aren't any (minus the books left out but they all date around the same time as the ones that were accepted as canon).

Therefore, if you believe in Jesus and follow his teachings, and that he is Christ then you are a Christian.
If you believe in Jesus and his teachings but not that he's Christ, then you can't say all of the Bible is a disgrace to the god of the Bible because that's the only evidence (minus those rejected books) that states this man ever existed.

Now, you can yell and scream and smite all day long but you make yourself look like the fool not any of us.

-Nam
 1. in the sense of the OT that in the NT Jesus doesn't deny any of the laws in the OT
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 05, 2013, 08:46:42 AM
Junebug,

A Christian is a follower of Christ. If you believe that Jesus is Christ then that makes you a Christian. However, the first place Jesus is mentioned is in the books of the Bible, New Testament. If you believe he is the Christ, then that was first mentioned in the Old Testament.

Jesus teachings come from the New and the Old Testament since that's the only place his words are mentioned[1] (minus the books that were left out of the NT).

So, when you say the Bible is a disgrace, you are also saying that Jesus is a disgrace unless you can show that he said anything in any other text that predates the books in the Bible.

Can you? Of course not because there aren't any (minus the books left out but they all date around the same time as the ones that were accepted as canon).

Therefore, if you believe in Jesus and follow his teachings, and that he is Christ then you are a Christian.
If you believe in Jesus and his teachings but not that he's Christ, then you can't say all of the Bible is a disgrace to the god of the Bible because that's the only evidence (minus those rejected books) that states this man ever existed.

Now, you can yell and scream and smite all day long but you make yourself look like the fool not any of us.

-Nam
 1. in the sense of the OT that in the NT Jesus doesn't deny any of the laws in the OT

Nam I clearly state in the OP that the new testament wasn't as offensive as the old.  Regardless, I don't believe it to be the words of God but words of man.  Men trying to understand the mysteries of life living in much different times than ours. 

It is not foolish to say when someone is making false claims about you.  It is foolish not to.

Being inspired and following are two different things.  I only follow my heart.  That's why I'm so damn sensitive you know. ;)

You can play your word games all you want it doesn't change the fact that you are trying desperately hard to assign something to me as a person that I am not.  I don't know exactly what your motives are for doing this but they are not noble I'm sure.

It is beyond silly to me at this point to continue to engage you in this discussion.  If I was Christian I'd say I was.  I'm not, so there it is.  End of this ridiculous debate.  Your lack of understanding is no longer my responsibility it is a lack of knowledge on your part.  You can either seek the knowledge necessary to understand me or continue to mislead yourself.  It's up to you.  I truly believe you don't honestly want to understand me.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on July 05, 2013, 05:18:41 PM
Junebug,

But it's still "offensive"! The New Testament is mainly about Jesus. If you remove everything that's about Jesus you have basically nothing.

You lost that argument.

Junebug, you're not sensitive, you're an idiot: there's a difference.

The rest of what you state is nonsense. You're a Christian (and an idiotic one at that), accept it.

-Nam



Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Samothec on July 05, 2013, 07:26:26 PM
As far as ID only coming from the bible; you're article does suggest that.  Only it makes more sense to me that ID came before the bible.  Someone had the idea before writing it down.
So someone had the idea that there was an intelligent designer who created the universe billions of years ago and set things into motion only giving it a nudge here and there to have it develop how it wants the universe to develop. Eventually that person wrote down the idea. But there's a bit of a problem. No one knew that the universe was billions of years old before the Bible was written so, no, ID did not come before the Bible.[1]

Deciding in your own mind that ID was thought up several thousand years before it was really imagined is one of those things you should not believe. And if you do anyways then it is something you should NOT be telling to anyone, ever. For comparison, think about how you'd react to someone saying there were Scientologists around when the Jews were in Egypt. Or that Mormons helped build the ark. That is the area you've drifted into when you say ID came before the Bible. No one had the idea and then waited 5700 years to write it down.

You say you don't begrudge me of my Loving Creator but yet feel the need to "reason" with me.  :?
Yes, because you say many things which make you sound like a christian yet you bitterly complain when people refer to you in what has always been an appropriate manner with everyone else who talks about Jesus and ID. So I tried (and failed) to reason with you about your terminology to help you have fewer problems about whether or not people refer to you as a christian.
 1. Hindu cosmology has some interesting and huge numbers in their beliefs but they do not match the facts.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 06, 2013, 05:04:08 AM
Let me just say this.  Christians do not consider me Christian.  I think they would know better than an atheist if I was part of their religion.  Go ahead ask them. 

I swear, I'm speaking of the theory of gods.  People thought of gods before the bible was written.  It was not bible then the idea.

I have said before the theory should change as we grow more knowledgeable.  We have to apply new knowledge to what we think about God, like the age of the planet.  Well at least that's how I approach the idea.  Oh yea Christians don't do that do they?  Guess I'm not a Christian then.    I could list a hundred things about me that's not Christian and just because I like not worship the loving instructions of Jesus you want to put a Christian stamp on my head and call it a day.  Not going to happen. 

It is downright childish of any of you to continue this insistence of Christianity.  That religion hates me.  They condemn me to hell right above you.  At least you're not an abomination!!!  I would rather be called a whore,slut, scalawag, or an idiot than be put in that box.  You are disregarding a lot of Christian tradition to call me one.

It's over I am not a Christian.  You can say I am 1001 times and you'd be wrong 1001 times.

I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN  I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN  I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN   I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN

Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: The Gawd on July 06, 2013, 06:22:10 AM
JB, you should just find a LGBT friendly church and be done with it since thats what fits your SPAG. You are doing no different than what literally every Christian has done and must do because it is impossible to agree with everything in the bible due to its contradictory nature. They all simply state that the parts they agree with are the "Truth" while the parts that are not beneficial to them they either ignore or call man made or whatever. Every Christian does it, even you, as evidenced here.

I dont know how much more clear the good folks here can make it. You believe in the Jesus myth, therefore you are a Christian, and B you also believe in the bible. Its not even debatable. You can make proclamations against it all you want, but everything you say leads back to you are a Christian exercising your own personal SPAG.

I live in Illinois, right outside of Chicago, here's something I found, and I'm sure it exists for every heavily populated area.  http://www.gaychurch.org/find_a_church/united_states/us_illinois.htm

LOL just realized that Ive been to the one in my town of Bolingbrook... back when I believed in fairy tales.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jynnan tonnix on July 06, 2013, 06:49:49 AM
Let me just say this.  Christians do not consider me Christian.  I think they would know better than an atheist if I was part of their religion.  Go ahead ask them. 

I swear, I'm speaking of the theory of gods.  People thought of gods before the bible was written.  It was not bible then the idea.

I have said before the theory should change as we grow more knowledgeable.  We have to apply new knowledge to what we think about God, like the age of the planet.  Well at least that's how I approach the idea.  Oh yea Christians don't do that do they?  Guess I'm not a Christian then.    I could list a hundred things about me that's not Christian and just because I like not worship the loving instructions of Jesus you want to put a Christian stamp on my head and call it a day.  Not going to happen. 

It is downright childish of any of you to continue this insistence of Christianity.  That religion hates me.  They condemn me to hell right above you.  At least you're not an abomination!!!  I would rather be called a whore,slut, scalawag, or an idiot than be put in that box.  You are disregarding a lot of Christian tradition to call me one.

It's over I am not a Christian.  You can say I am 1001 times and you'd be wrong 1001 times.

I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN  I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN  I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN   I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN
Hey, Junebug,

I'm generally willing to go with whatever someone chooses to identify themselves as. Your world view has elements of Christianity, and elements of not-so-much, so it's all the same to me, really, what you want to call it. For what it's worth, I have a lot more problems with apologists who twist the words and meanings in the Bible to fit (if it can even be called fitting) all the clear contradictions both within itself and the way it fails to match up to the world around them than I do with those who try to think for themselves, even though they cannot bring themselves to give up on the supernatural.

Anyway, that's not really my point here. Your post just made me think of my brother-in-law, who I've been thinking of starting a thread about. He's been a nondenominational, though definitely Christian minister for the past 15 years or so, and is one of the strongest people I know as far as what he is willing to put himself through, even though he has osteogenesis imperfecta (brittle bone disease), and many physical limitations because of it. In the last year or so, he has come out as gay, at the age of 43, and lost his job, and most of his Christian friends because of it, on top of which, he has suffered from clinical depression on and off for years, and this has put him in a really suicidal frame of mind in recent months. We, his family, and those friends he still has, have constantly been trying to talk him off the proverbial ledge, and he has lost other friends as a result of his wild mood swings (he is on medication, but it evidently has not quite been effective). I have a hard time understanding how he could keep his faith in the face of all this, especially given the Christian belief that god has a plan and will not give you any hardship you cannot handle, which, to me, flies in the face of suicidal thoughts and plans. Yet he will not budge in his Christianity. He is not, and has never been, in a romantic relationship, but during his more positive moments, he holds out hope for finding someone to share his life with. He, as many other Christians have done, has managed to reconcile his homosexuality with his faith.

And I think that's where people get tripped up with you as well, Junebug. Even though you don't consider yourself Christian, there are enough hold-overs from your having been brought up that way that other than the name, there's not a whole lot of difference between your beliefs and those of some people who have amended their world view to incorporate any number of things which are not necessarily Biblical, but who still hold fast to the label of "Christianity".

Not that any of this is particularly relevant to this thread. I think I'm just venting a bit. Does anyone think this (the part about my BIL)  topic deserves a thread of its own, or can it stay here to gain maybe a response or two then fizzle out?

edited to add: yeah, this all pretty much goes along with what The Gawd just posted while I was typing, too.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: William on July 06, 2013, 07:24:18 AM
I have said before the theory should change as we grow more knowledgeable.  We have to apply new knowledge to what we think about God, like the age of the planet.  Well at least that's how I approach the idea.  Oh yea Christians don't do that do they?  Guess I'm not a Christian then.

Junebug72, I think you are being honest about this.

I get that you like some aspects of the Jesus story.  I like some aspects of the Robin Hood story.  So I can relate.

I get that you like some aspects of having a deity to follow and a chance at an eternal life where everything is perfect.  I went through exactly the same.  So I can relate.

I'm glad we agree on some things - the Bible, BibleGod, and Christianity.  That's a lot of common ground  :)
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 06, 2013, 09:00:30 AM
As far as ID only coming from the bible; you're article does suggest that.  Only it makes more sense to me that ID came before the bible.  Someone had the idea before writing it down.
So someone had the idea that there was an intelligent designer who created the universe billions of years ago and set things into motion only giving it a nudge here and there to have it develop how it wants the universe to develop. Eventually that person wrote down the idea. But there's a bit of a problem. No one knew that the universe was billions of years old before the Bible was written so, no, ID did not come before the Bible.[1]

Deciding in your own mind that ID was thought up several thousand years before it was really imagined is one of those things you should not believe. And if you do anyways then it is something you should NOT be telling to anyone, ever. For comparison, think about how you'd react to someone saying there were Scientologists around when the Jews were in Egypt. Or that Mormons helped build the ark. That is the area you've drifted into when you say ID came before the Bible. No one had the idea and then waited 5700 years to write it down.

You say you don't begrudge me of my Loving Creator but yet feel the need to "reason" with me.  :?
Yes, because you say many things which make you sound like a christian yet you bitterly complain when people refer to you in what has always been an appropriate manner with everyone else who talks about Jesus and ID. So I tried (and failed) to reason with you about your terminology to help you have fewer problems about whether or not people refer to you as a christian.
 1. Hindu cosmology has some interesting and huge numbers in their beliefs but they do not match the facts.

I call the Intelligent Designer God.  When I say that the idea has been around longer than the bible, it is gods I was speaking of.   

What are these "many" things I've said that are the sole possession of Christianity?

To simply say I am not a Christian should suffice.  That clears it up pretty good.  I live by ancient Toltec knowledge; not Christian.   All I have done is give you my take on the story of Jesus and y'all have somehow twisted it up to mean more than it means. 

I'm not going to play along anymore.  Best I can tell you all agree that the bible is not the words of any god.  My goal is to debate with someone who does not agree with the OT.

Thanks y'all but I prefer my Toltec philosophy.  I have found it much simpler to accomplish.  Christianity is way too complicated.  Jdawg I've said time and time again I don't believe in the myth of Jesus as you are suggesting.  I only think his existence as a man is likely.  I question his demi god status due to the fact that I only see the bible as the work of man.  I think the whole idea of church is against what Jesus taught so if I was a Christian I'd be working on shutting it down not supporting it.  But I'm not nor will I ever be.

Jynnan,

I'm sorry to hear about your BIL's struggles.  I wish I could talk to him.  I've been down this road and it's not easy.  It's a form of codependency.   His whole self esteem was enveloped by his Christianity.  Toltec philosophy teaches you to obtain your sense of self without the need for outside assistance whether it be faith, money, looks, etc...

He needs to know that even though Christians have turned him away that God still Loves him just the way he is.  In your case "if" there is a god. IMO. 

If you do decide to start a thread I would suggest putting it under personal help support and advice

People just have to use labels.  I'm a lot more not christian than I am similar to christian so I'm just not a christian.  I am spiritual.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: The Gawd on July 06, 2013, 09:22:15 AM
Jynnan,

I'm sorry to hear about your BIL's struggles.  I wish I could talk to him.  I've been down this road and it's not easy.  It's a form of codependency.   His whole self esteem was enveloped by his Christianity.  Toltec philosophy teaches you to obtain your sense of self without the need for outside assistance whether it be faith, money, looks, etc...

You say to obtain your self sense of self without outside assistance (a crutch), then you say:

Quote
He needs to know that even though Christians have turned him away that God still Loves him just the way he is.  In your case "if" there is a god. IMO. 
youre back to the crutch. He should find his sense of self. Period. No crutches needed.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on July 06, 2013, 08:14:55 PM
Let me just say this.  Christians do not consider me Christian.  I think they would know better than an atheist if I was part of their religion.  Go ahead ask them.

All Christians, really? You polled them all? Of course not. You're talking about specific Christians and each and every sect do not believe that any other sect but theirs are Christian.

It means nothing. It's irrelevant.

If you believe in Jesus Christ, then you're a follower of Christ and therefore a Christian. Whether you think you are or they think you are or not is irrelevant.

That's what a Christian is: a follower of Jesus and his teachings.

Quote
Oh yea Christians don't do that do they?  Guess I'm not a Christian then.

38,000+ different sects? Did you consult with each one to see if none of them think that way? Of course not but doesn't matter, it's irrelevant: a Christian is a person who follows Jesus and his teachings. If you believe in Jesus, and follow his teachings, then you're a Christian. How difficult is this to understand?

Quote
I could list a hundred things about me that's not Christian and just because I like not worship the loving instructions of Jesus you want to put a Christian stamp on my head and call it a day.  Not going to happen.

You can do and say whatever the hell you want. Doesn't make it true.

Quote
It is downright childish of any of you to continue this insistence of Christianity.  That religion hates me.

How does an inanimate object "hate"?

Quote
They condemn me to hell right above you.  At least you're not an abomination!!!  I would rather be called a whore,slut, scalawag, or an idiot than be put in that box.  You are disregarding a lot of Christian tradition to call me one.

According to the Bible, minus a few "special people", everyone, including Christians are bound for hell.

Quote
It's over I am not a Christian.

Wrong.

Quote
You can say I am 1001 times and you'd be wrong 1001 times.

Same to you.

I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN  I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN  I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN   I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN

YES YOU ARE YES YOU ARE YES YOU ARE YES YOU ARE

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 07, 2013, 08:07:53 AM
Jynnan,

I'm sorry to hear about your BIL's struggles.  I wish I could talk to him.  I've been down this road and it's not easy.  It's a form of codependency.   His whole self esteem was enveloped by his Christianity.  Toltec philosophy teaches you to obtain your sense of self without the need for outside assistance whether it be faith, money, looks, etc...

You say to obtain your self sense of self without outside assistance (a crutch), then you say:

Quote
He needs to know that even though Christians have turned him away that God still Loves him just the way he is.  In your case "if" there is a god. IMO. 
youre back to the crutch. He should find his sense of self. Period. No crutches needed.

We are talking about someone who is ready to die w/o his faith companions.  His sense of self seems to be defined as a spiritual man.  He can come through this with his faith in a Loving God reassured his soul can have peace.  You DO NOT have to be a christian to Love and Respect God.  It's inevitably up to him what will calm his soul, I have no doubt it's reassurance of God's love.  I would hate for him to think the past 15 years of his life were for naught.  I will propose that it has led him to this moment and he can give up his fight or quit feeling sorry for his self and fight back.  Don't let the Christians monopolize God. 

The only way to get rid of pesky religions is to show them God loves all and you can't do that if you claim God doesn't exist.  All that does is fuel the fire, gives them the sense of self righteousness. 

I think it dishonorable to try and change a man's belief while he's so obviously vulnerable.  I think it's better to use his belief to give him "will", strength, to fight back.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 07, 2013, 08:36:55 AM
Nam this has become harassment.  Stop it now or I'm going to report you.  My word is solid as a rock.  I have no diabolical plot to hide being a Christian. It is pure slander for you to continue insisting I'm something I'm adamantly against.  You can appreciate the story of Jesus w/o being christian.  It's not complicated.

I really wish you'd give up this grudge you have against me.  I have treated all your hateful and insulting post with kindness and humility.  What more do you want from me? 

Here's some advice, if your goal is to see how much I will take before I go off you will have to be a lot more cruel than you have been already. 

Call me whatever names you like it just makes you the bully.  Sticks and stones...
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on July 07, 2013, 03:33:43 PM
Nam this has become harassment.  Stop it now or I'm going to report you.  My word is solid as a rock.  I have no diabolical plot to hide being a Christian. It is pure slander for you to continue insisting I'm something I'm adamantly against.  You can appreciate the story of Jesus w/o being christian.  It's not complicated.

I'm replying to your comments. How's that harassment? You smiting people because you perceive them as calling you a liar (and you've done it a lot to quite a few people on here) I think falls under the realm of harassment, and abuse of the karma system. But that's just my opinion.

Appreciate? You do more than appreciate. Your comments prove that.

Quote
I really wish you'd give up this grudge you have against me.

What grudge? There's no grudge. Stop saying stupid things and you'll stop getting replies that point them out.

Quote
I have treated all your hateful and insulting post with kindness and humility.

Bullshit.

Quote
What more do you want from me?

Stop referring to everyone as a liar when they contradict or have a differing opinion to your own. Stop saying stupid things. Stop smiting everyone for inane things (smiting me for calling you an idiot wasn't inane; but most of your smites to me and others have been) and admit when you are wrong.

Quote
Here's some advice, if your goal is to see how much I will take before I go off you will have to be a lot more cruel than you have been already.

The most I've done is contradict you, and called you an idiot once or twice. Trust: this is the nice me.

Quote
Call me whatever names you like it just makes you the bully.  Sticks and stones...

That's the difference between you and I: I know what I am.

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 08, 2013, 05:10:24 AM
Nam I know what I am and what I'm not.   No you've done more than call me an idiot.  What was that comment that got you put on the watched list?  It was nasty.  I won't repeat it.

It's harassment. I'm not a Christian.

What comments prove that?  I only talk about Jesus when one of you guys ask me about it.  Usually when you're trying to prove I'm christian; for whatever reason you find it important to do so.

You really need to broaden your view of the world.  There are many kinds of people out there, some very unique. 

If it's really too much for you to see me any other way go ahead and call me whatever makes it easy for you.  Leave your mind narrow.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: SkyWriting on July 08, 2013, 01:08:00 PM
Nam I know what I am and what I'm not.   No you've done more than call me an idiot.  What was that comment that got you put on the watched list?  It was nasty.  I won't repeat it.

It's harassment. I'm not a Christian.

What comments prove that?  I only talk about Jesus when one of you guys ask me about it.  Usually when you're trying to prove I'm christian; for whatever reason you find it important to do so.

You really need to broaden your view of the world.  There are many kinds of people out there, some very unique. 

If it's really too much for you to see me any other way go ahead and call me whatever makes it easy for you.  Leave your mind narrow.

Name callers are just that.  Mini grade verbal abuse.   
I take it no worse than threats made with a lollipop.


Namecallers:  (http://media-cache-ec4.pinimg.com/192x/ee/7d/03/ee7d038c39e5f8ebf8882c6ac4c6e9c5.jpg)

 
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jdawg70 on July 08, 2013, 01:53:27 PM
Thanks y'all but I prefer my Toltec philosophy.  I have found it much simpler to accomplish.  Christianity is way too complicated.  Jdawg I've said time and time again I don't believe in the myth of Jesus as you are suggesting.  I only think his existence as a man is likely.  I question his demi god status due to the fact that I only see the bible as the work of man.  I think the whole idea of church is against what Jesus taught so if I was a Christian I'd be working on shutting it down not supporting it.  But I'm not nor will I ever be.
What part of my last summation suggested that you believe the mythical parts of the Jesus story as outlined in the bible?

I'd also be curious as to your reasons for why you think the existence of Jesus the man is likely.  I'd be curious to know where you get the things that this Jesus individual taught.

I'm trying to understand what your beliefs are, junebug.  I tried to lay out my perspective on your beliefs with that that summation.  Perhaps if you clarified what it is I'm mistaken about, I could get a better understanding.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on July 08, 2013, 05:58:23 PM
Nam I know what I am and what I'm not.   No you've done more than call me an idiot.  What was that comment that got you put on the watched list?  It was nasty.  I won't repeat it.

It's harassment. I'm not a Christian.

What comments prove that?  I only talk about Jesus when one of you guys ask me about it.  Usually when you're trying to prove I'm christian; for whatever reason you find it important to do so.

You really need to broaden your view of the world.  There are many kinds of people out there, some very unique. 

If it's really too much for you to see me any other way go ahead and call me whatever makes it easy for you.  Leave your mind narrow.

I've defined what a Christian is: a follower of Jesus and his teachings. You basically minus out everything in the Bible except Jesus and his teachings. If you consult multitudes of dictionaries there will be one definition quite common in the bulk of them, which is what I state above.

Again: it's irrelevant what other Christians say a Christian (mainly because they only represent their own view: like you), and what you personally believe.

I don't believe in a god or gods. I do not like to label myself as an atheist, I'd rather state nothing but to other people I am an atheist; and I state that I am, at times, based on that perception.

Just like I don't like to be referred to as an atheist is the same as you not like being referred to as a Christian (though you're more vile about it) which in both views: is irrelevant.

Get it yet? Of course not.

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on July 08, 2013, 06:02:20 PM
Thanks y'all but I prefer my Toltec philosophy.  I have found it much simpler to accomplish.  Christianity is way too complicated.  Jdawg I've said time and time again I don't believe in the myth of Jesus as you are suggesting.  I only think his existence as a man is likely.  I question his demi god status due to the fact that I only see the bible as the work of man.  I think the whole idea of church is against what Jesus taught so if I was a Christian I'd be working on shutting it down not supporting it.  But I'm not nor will I ever be.
What part of my last summation suggested that you believe the mythical parts of the Jesus story as outlined in the bible?

I'd also be curious as to your reasons for why you think the existence of Jesus the man is likely.  I'd be curious to know where you get the things that this Jesus individual taught.

I'm trying to understand what your beliefs are, junebug.  I tried to lay out my perspective on your beliefs with that that summation.  Perhaps if you clarified what it is I'm mistaken about, I could get a better understanding.

She makes up her responses as she rewrites it elsewhere (why it takes her so long to respond even while being logged in).

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 09, 2013, 04:29:19 AM

I'm going to try to summarize how I understand some of your beliefs.  I think I'm still a little murky, so I'm bound to make some errors here so forgive that.

You take the bible to be an old book that has descriptions that are accurate (perhaps not precise), though it is neither a text of the quality of a history book (contains fantastical stories and untrue elements and events) nor a divinely written or inspired work.  You believe that a divine entity 'Jesus' (not really sure about this one; I'm basing this off of your claims of having a current, active relationship with this entity) is, in some way, referenced in this book (either as The Messiah as described, as a character based upon the real 'Jesus' entity, or some other means).  The information that you have on Jesus' character (be it concrete information or some 'intuitive' sense of knowing) is not informed by the bible, but rather informed through your life experiences as a whole.

Thanks y'all but I prefer my Toltec philosophy.  I have found it much simpler to accomplish.  Christianity is way too complicated.  Jdawg I've said time and time again I don't believe in the myth of Jesus as you are suggesting.  I only think his existence as a man is likely.  I question his demi god status due to the fact that I only see the bible as the work of man.  I think the whole idea of church is against what Jesus taught so if I was a Christian I'd be working on shutting it down not supporting it.  But I'm not nor will I ever be.
What part of my last summation suggested that you believe the mythical parts of the Jesus story as outlined in the bible?

I'd also be curious as to your reasons for why you think the existence of Jesus the man is likely.  I'd be curious to know where you get the things that this Jesus individual taught.

I'm trying to understand what your beliefs are, junebug.  I tried to lay out my perspective on your beliefs with that that summation.  Perhaps if you clarified what it is I'm mistaken about, I could get a better understanding.

That bold statement is not what I believe.  I have said it repeatedly to you and Nam and for some reason you can't get that.  I do not have a personal relationship with Jesus.  I am not a christian.  I can certainly believe Jesus was a human that sacrificed his life w/o believing that he was God. 

Nam I don't follow Jesus so your conclusion is moot.  I have not been vile.  You think you can just say anything and it just shows desperation. 

Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jdawg70 on July 09, 2013, 07:22:27 AM
That bold statement is not what I believe.  I have said it repeatedly to you and Nam and for some reason you can't get that.  I do not have a personal relationship with Jesus.  I am not a christian.  I can certainly believe Jesus was a human that sacrificed his life w/o believing that he was God. 
I'm guessing you missed this post:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25104.msg560573.html#msg560573
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on July 09, 2013, 06:20:36 PM
How many times does anyone have to explain to you the definition of a Christian? Where, in consensus of the definition, does it say that you have to have a "personal relationship", Junebug?

And where did I say anything about Jesus being God. Not all Christians believe that.

This is why you're an idiot.

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 10, 2013, 07:52:51 AM
You two call me whatever you want.  I still think you're using the term liberally to apply it to me.  I just have to understand you're not able to see this any other way and go on with my day. 

This term is a better fit: spiritual not religious.  If you're not able to process this information you might want to get that looked at. Maybe this will help you.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/philip-goldberg/spiritual-but-not-religious-misunderstood-and-here-to-stay_b_2617306.html

Quote
SBNRs are as diverse and complex as any other spiritual cohort. They are here to stay, and their numbers will surely grow as pluralism evolves and access to the world's wisdom becomes even easier. It could be the most important religious development of our time, so let's make sure we understand it.

There is a lot more of this article.  If you're really interested in understanding me you will read the whole article.

Jdawg I am not going to do that.  Didn't miss it.  Every time you start your analysis of me you say I have a personal relationship which I don't so I basically stop there.  So that answers Nam's question.  I got it from you. 

Nam says follower =christian.  I am not a follower. 

Either way this debate is over.  You two think what you want.  The facts are right there in front of you.  You have the right to your opinions.  I have the right to mine.

Take care



Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: SkyWriting on July 10, 2013, 08:00:02 AM
You two call me whatever you want.  I still think you're using the term liberally to apply it to me.  I just have to understand you're not able to see this any other way and go on with my day. 

This term is a better fit: spiritual not religious.  If you're not able to process this information you might want to get that looked at. Maybe this will help you.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/philip-goldberg/spiritual-but-not-religious-misunderstood-and-here-to-stay_b_2617306.html

Quote
SBNRs are as diverse and complex as any other spiritual cohort. They are here to stay, and their numbers will surely grow as pluralism evolves and access to the world's wisdom becomes even easier. It could be the most important religious development of our time, so let's make sure we understand it.

There is a lot more of this article.  If you're really interested in understanding me you will read the whole article.

Jdawg I am not going to do that.  Didn't miss it.  Every time you start your analysis of me you say I have a personal relationship which I don't so I basically stop there.  So that answers Nam's question.  I got it from you. 

Nam says follower =christian.  I am not a follower. 

Either way this debate is over.  You two think what you want.  The facts are right there in front of you.  You have the right to your opinions.  I have the right to mine.

Take care

Spirituality is on the rise.  Many mainstream religious groups are shrinking. 
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jdawg70 on July 10, 2013, 08:39:25 AM
You two call me whatever you want.  I still think you're using the term liberally to apply it to me.  I just have to understand you're not able to see this any other way and go on with my day. 

This term is a better fit: spiritual not religious.  If you're not able to process this information you might want to get that looked at. Maybe this will help you.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/philip-goldberg/spiritual-but-not-religious-misunderstood-and-here-to-stay_b_2617306.html

Quote
SBNRs are as diverse and complex as any other spiritual cohort. They are here to stay, and their numbers will surely grow as pluralism evolves and access to the world's wisdom becomes even easier. It could be the most important religious development of our time, so let's make sure we understand it.

There is a lot more of this article.  If you're really interested in understanding me you will read the whole article.

Jdawg I am not going to do that.  Didn't miss it.  Every time you start your analysis of me you say I have a personal relationship which I don't so I basically stop there.  So that answers Nam's question.  I got it from you. 

Nam says follower =christian.  I am not a follower. 

Either way this debate is over.  You two think what you want.  The facts are right there in front of you.  You have the right to your opinions.  I have the right to mine.

Take care
I started typing a response, but it was getting pretty damn vitriolic, so I started again.  Then it got really sarcastic and smarmy, so I started again.  Then my head made high-velocity impact with my keyboard.

(sigh)

Junebug72...this is getting pretty exasperating.  What exactly is it that you are "not going to do"?  Read my posts to you?  It just looks like you didn't read the post and are just assuming the content.  Your claim that every time I start my analysis of you with saying that you have a personal relationship is just...incorrect.  I really don't see where that is implied anywhere in that last post.  Perhaps if you read it...I dunno.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on July 10, 2013, 04:41:25 PM
^and she says she isn't an idiot. How much proof does one need?

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 11, 2013, 06:39:13 AM
^and she says she isn't an idiot. How much proof does one need?

-Nam

Take care guys. 8)
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jdawg70 on July 11, 2013, 08:56:04 AM
Take care guys. 8)
I take that with the same degree of sincerity that you have with any of your other posts at this point.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Samothec on July 12, 2013, 06:47:06 PM
I call the Intelligent Designer God.  When I say that the idea has been around longer than the bible, it is gods I was speaking of. 
This was very evasive. Trying to retcon[1] what you meant when you were clear the first time around – because you didn't like being told you were wrong. You repeatedly insisted that you only refer to the creator as 'God' and have never before (in this thread) said "Intelligent Designer". Now, I could gather quotes from you proving you wrong here[2]. But I don't feel like wasting all that time since you will try to weasel out of the facts. So, you get to prove you meant 'God' every time you referenced ID (Intelligent Design - not the Designer) being around before the bible. You won't be able to – you will only find that your own words prove you wrong. OR you can show that you are worth talking to by apologizing and admit you were wrong.

My guess is that you won't do either one. Instead you will give me an unjustified smite[3] and make irrelevant claims.
 1. definition from Dictionary . com [short for `retroactive continuity']
1. n. The common situation in pulp fiction (esp. comics or soap operas) where a new story `reveals' things about events in previous stories, usually leaving the `facts' the same (thus preserving continuity) while completely changing their interpretation. For example, revealing that a whole season of "Dallas" was a dream was a retcon.
 2. Claiming that you meant 'gods' when every time you implied if not directly stated that you meant ID "theory".
 3. Nam can be strident at times but you've been giving him smites like they were cookies at their expiration date and you were a cookie factory trying to unload them.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 13, 2013, 07:11:54 AM
/nb] what you meant when you were clear the first time around – because you didn't like being told you were wrong. You repeatedly insisted that you only refer to the creator as 'God' and have never before (in this thread) said "Intelligent Designer". Now, I could gather quotes from you proving you wrong here[1]. But I don't feel like wasting all that time since you will try to weasel out of the facts. So, you get to prove you meant 'God' every time you referenced ID (Intelligent Design - not the Designer) being around before the bible. You won't be able to – you will only find that your own words prove you wrong. OR you can show that you are worth talking to by apologizing and admit you were wrong.

My guess is that you won't do either one. Instead you will give me an unjustified smite[2] and make irrelevant claims.
 1. Claiming that you meant 'gods' when every time you implied if not directly stated that you meant ID "theory".
 2. Nam can be strident at times but you've been giving him smites like they were cookies at their expiration date and you were a cookie factory trying to unload them.

First of all I have not denied using the term "Intelligent Design". The bible does not use this term to speak of God. Second the only weaselling going on 'round here is this post of yours.  You guys Nam, Jdawg, and you are just trying to provoke me.  Guess what I'm not hungry for drama. 

I suggest you get your proof.  I know it's not there. I have not denied using that term.   I hope you enjoy that big hunk of mud pie in your face.

The only thing I have denied for the past 3 pages of this thread is being a christian; because I'm not.

I have noticed none-of-the-above has offered any reply to the link that was provided that defines my belief. 

Yes I will smite you for not providing proof of your claim. You have 24 hours . :?

There's three people here that can't admit they're wrong, especially to a theist,  and it is clear with every letter you type.

I have suffered this debate long enough. 

Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on July 13, 2013, 09:21:52 AM
And yet you keep responding which was one of the points made that you keep saying is untrue.

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 13, 2013, 09:43:42 AM
And yet you keep responding which was one of the points made that you keep saying is untrue.

-Nam

Not for long. hehe
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on July 13, 2013, 09:53:16 AM
And yet you keep responding which was one of the points made that you keep saying is untrue.

-Nam

Not for long. hehe


I guess this is as far as you can muster in admitting you're wrong.

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 13, 2013, 11:26:05 AM
And yet you keep responding which was one of the points made that you keep saying is untrue.

-Nam

Not for long. hehe


I guess this is as far as you can muster in admitting you're wrong.

-Nam

No I'm not wrong. You are. Now be a man and admit it.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: ghost on July 13, 2013, 11:30:25 AM
It uses fear and manipulation to accomplish the goal of enslaving women, discriminating homosexuality, and provide consequences for violence.

I've never once heard someone say the bible tries to enslave women. Also, you should be more specific. Not all versions of the bible discriminate against homos, my church has a few gay members.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 13, 2013, 11:36:42 AM
It uses fear and manipulation to accomplish the goal of enslaving women, discriminating homosexuality, and provide consequences for violence.

I've never once heard someone say the bible tries to enslave women. Also, you should be more specific. Not all versions of the bible discriminate against homos, my church has a few gay members.

All versions of Moses's laws demand stoning homosexuals.  Your church may not participate but the bible certainly does.  The whole story of Adam and "Eve" eating the apple lies the foundation for thousands of years of sexual discrimination.  There's verses that tell women to obey their husbands;I cal that enslavement.  I really should have used the term oppressed.

The fact that you just said homos says to me 1 member of your church discriminates, you.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Traveler on July 13, 2013, 12:03:22 PM
I've never once heard someone say the bible tries to enslave women. Also, you should be more specific. Not all versions of the bible discriminate against homos, my church has a few gay members.

The bible is extremely sexist, and its members have contributed to the oppression of women ever since it was written. Speaking as a woman, it IS slavery to insist that a woman kowtow to her man, that she cannot lead the church, that only certain roles in life are open to her, that she must make babies for god, that she must marry her rapist unless he pays her father, and much more. Some modern churches have softened those old stories, or ignored the old testament entirely (the whole argument of whether jesus replaced or accepted the old testament) but the fact is that the bible is an absolute horror for anyone who is not a dominant, rich, christian male.

And while some interpret the bible as being neutral or even positive of LGBTQ members, most who read the bible interpret it as being very, very anti-homosexuality.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jdawg70 on July 13, 2013, 01:04:54 PM

I guess this is as far as you can muster in admitting you're wrong.

-Nam

No I'm not wrong. You are. Now be a man and admit it.


Jdawg I am not going to do that.  Didn't miss it.  Every time you start your analysis of me you say I have a personal relationship which I don't so I basically stop there.  So that answers Nam's question.  I got it from you. 
I assume you'll lead by example and you'll admit that you are wrong regarding this.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: screwtape on July 13, 2013, 03:24:48 PM
I guess this is as far as you can muster in admitting you're wrong.

-Nam

No I'm not wrong. You are. Now be a man and admit it.

Cut it out, both of you.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on July 13, 2013, 04:36:59 PM
Oh, I see. Calling Junebug out on her bullshit is bad, screwtape.

Gotcha.

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Samothec on July 13, 2013, 05:22:36 PM
Just to make it utterly clear, Junebug, I didn't do this to avoid your threat, I did it to rub your nose in how wrong you are but I found evidence of the real underlying problem:

#32
I believe in Intelligent Design.  The authors of the bible, though presumably wrong, thought up Intelligent Design before the bible was written, so it is possible to believe in God w/o the bible. 

In my reply to you (#40) I pointed out the issue about ID and Creationism.

In reply to that, in #50 you say:
I thought most atheist knew that it's predated by several other beliefs, as do I.

In #60 I point out that facts about ID and the problems about claiming that ID came before the Bible.

In # 67 you blew me off which prompted my disgusted reply in #77

Here in #91 you apologized but then go on to say:
As far as ID only coming from the bible; you're article does suggest that.  Only it makes more sense to me that ID came before the bible.  Someone had the idea before writing it down.  All the attributes the biblical authors assigned to God is their interpretation.  All that I say is mine.  Our belief in a powerful source of life comes from the mind not a book.  With more knowledge at my disposal my interpretation should be different. 

I'm not a sloppy thinker or writer.  I know my writing skills are not perfect but I'm quite fond of the way I think.  My English classes taught me to capitalize proper names.  I could call my interpretation of this power, The Great Scientist.  I don't believe The Great Scientist willed anything into existence but built it with the elements of the universe and an endless supply of intelligence.  I like "God" better so I'm sticking with that.   

Post #95 is where I again tried to reason with you in spite of feeling like you were ignoring every other word I wrote and replying to the distorted version in your head.

#100
I call the Intelligent Designer God.  When I say that the idea has been around longer than the bible, it is gods I was speaking of.   
I did not call you a liar in response to this because I hadn't gone back over everything. Now that I have, and while I was right, it was not the way I thought I was right. Going back over this material I can see that you are a sloppy thinker/writer and you thought you were communicating your thoughts just fine when you were instead creating confusion. You are vague when you shouldn't be. You use terms in ways most people don't.

Rewriting your words as it seems you want them to be read:
I believe in The Great Scientist.  The authors of the bible, though presumably wrong, thought up something like The Great Scientist before the bible was written, so it is possible to believe in God w/o the bible. 
I thought most atheist knew that the idea of The Great Scientist is predated by several other beliefs, as do I.
Only it makes more sense to me that The Great Scientist came before the bible.  Someone had the idea for The Great Scientist before writing it down.  All the attributes the biblical authors assigned to God is their interpretation.  All that I say is mine.  Our belief in a powerful source of life comes from the mind not a book.
Is this correct? If it is, then please be careful with the pronouns and read more carefully. There is no problem with any of these in the version I have rewritten here. The idea of god(s) does pre-date the Bible.

Design =/= Designer.
Use your own term of "The Great Scientist" or TGS for short.

IMO almost all the drama in this thread would not exist is you were willing to just use a bit more care in how you say things.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Astreja on July 13, 2013, 05:49:14 PM
I've never once heard someone say the bible tries to enslave women.

"Someone" doesn't say it; the Bible itself makes it quite clear.


Here's a more complete list (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/women/long.html) of the misogyny in the Bible.

Quote
Also, you should be more specific. Not all versions of the bible discriminate against homos, my church has a few gay members.

Uh... If you  have an Old Testament in your Bible, the book of Leviticus clearly orders you to kill male homosexuals.  Paul also appears rather homophobic.  Perhaps the Jefferson Bible (http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/JefJesu.html) is okay, but any standard version of the  Bible clearly does discriminate against LGBT people.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on July 13, 2013, 06:12:38 PM

Paul also appears rather homophobic. 

Although I have been off religion as of late this suspicion had been rolling in my mind.
I'm sorry I can't be bothered to reference specific quotes but trust me it is there.
Paul referred to a non specific "thorn in his side" that he couldn't get past and god wouldn't remove.
Paul was big on celibacy.
Was Paul gay?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Astreja on July 13, 2013, 07:42:52 PM
Was Paul gay?

Unless archaeologists uncover a treasure trove of old writings that includes first-hand reports from one of his lovers, I don't think we'll ever know the answer to that.  Romans 7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+7&version=NIV) hints that he was struggling with some profound self-loathing about something related to his physical body, though.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 14, 2013, 05:22:52 AM
Just to make it utterly clear, Junebug, I didn't do this to avoid your threat, I did it to rub your nose in how wrong you are but I found evidence of the real underlying problem:

You didn't provide any proof of your claim against me; "I denied using the term  Intelligent Design."  It's just a bunch more of you twisting words around to confuse people.  You even said yourself you understand that it's the term I'm using causing the confusion.  All confusion should have cleared away as soon as I explained the use of the term.  All that rambling just makes you look desperate.  When you have to change the words to mean what you want they no longer mean what I meant.

I have proven you an unworthy source.  You did not provide proof of claim; denied using the term intelligent design.  Your use of the word "but" makes it obvious.

It's not my use of words that is the problem here but there is definitely some word abuse going on.

Nam got smites for his unfounded insults.  He really needs to expand his vocabulary.

Screwtape,

Don't scorn me.

I tried very graciously to walk away from this thread.  I proved my point.  There are several links to information about the spiritual but not religious.  I explained my life's philosophy comes from Ancient Toltec Knowledge.  I have my theory on the bible mostly that it's disgraceful to God.  When I say God I mean The Source of Life.  I am not referring to any religious deity.

Can you believe a smite for a sincere  take care guys.  Not one of them had given a summary of the link I provided.  That's when I knew it was just fun and games at my expense.  They are not the least bit sincere about understanding me. Anybody can twist words and confuse.  My beliefs are not this complicated. I am spiritual but not religious.  Religions use people's spirit/conscience for profit and control.  I am not a part of that.

Yes I know the bible and I am more than capable of holding my own in a biblical debate.  That does not make me a christian.  You have to claim to be a christian to be a christian.  I believe in God, all the religious propaganda is hearsay.  I go by my own personal experience.  SPAG right? 

Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: screwtape on July 15, 2013, 09:57:54 AM
Oh, I see. Calling Junebug out on her bullshit is bad, screwtape.

Gotcha.

No, Nam.  Juvenile bickering is annoying and off topic, thus, bad. 
Barking back at moderation is against the rules, annoying and off topic, thus, also bad.  Cut it out.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: screwtape on July 15, 2013, 10:01:17 AM
Screwtape,

Don't scorn me.

I don't know what that means.  I asked you and Nam to drop the back and forth bickering.  That's it.  If you have a problem doing that, PM me.  Any other discussion of this in thread is off topic and will be deleted.  This goes for you, Nam and anyone else. 
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: screwtape on July 15, 2013, 10:07:29 AM
Paul also appears rather homophobic. 

There is a fairly mainstream hypothesis that Paul was gay.
http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2004/04/Was-The-Apostle-Paul-Gay.aspx
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jdawg70 on July 15, 2013, 10:11:39 AM
Can you believe a smite for a sincere  take care guys.  Not one of them had given a summary of the link I provided.  That's when I knew it was just fun and games at my expense.  They are not the least bit sincere about understanding me. Anybody can twist words and confuse.  My beliefs are not this complicated. I am spiritual but not religious.  Religions use people's spirit/conscience for profit and control.  I am not a part of that.
Junebug72 -

This is what is incredibly frustrating to me.  Look through this whole thread for what out back-and-forth had been like up until post #112.  I had in absolute sincerity made an attempt to understand what your beliefs are.  I started with a summary of what I thought your beliefs were.  You then corrected me on a few points, in which case I sincerely apologized for misconstruing you, and I made corrections to my initial summary.  Your next post to me was then to again complain to me for misunderstanding you the first time, which, BTW, I did attempt to explain the source of my misunderstanding.

It's the conversations following that where I am just at a loss.

Your complaint, sometime after my second summary (this post here: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25104.msg560573.html#msg560573) that:
Quote
Jdawg I've said time and time again I don't believe in the myth of Jesus as you are suggesting.  I only think his existence as a man is likely.

I then asked for clarification where, in my second summation, I implied that you believed in the myth of Jesus or have a personal relationship with him.  You then proceed to quote my first summation and bold the point of contention.  I then pointed you to my second summation, which did not include such discourse, and frankly included no indication, whatsoever, that you accept the biblical myth of Jesus or have a personal relationship with him.  I repost a link to that second summation, which you say you did not miss it.  Yet you continually talk down to me as if I never said any of the words I did in the second summation.

You can yell at me all you want, but the obvious fact, at least in the first 3.5 pages of conversation in this thread, is that I sincerely wanted to understand what you believe.  I don't know if it's just the number of posters that have put their 2 cents in and you're conflating what other people had be saying to you with what I've been saying, but COME.  THE.  FUCK.  ON.  GET OVER THIS PERSECUTION COMPLEX - PLEASE.  It's making me embarrassed for you.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Samothec on July 15, 2013, 01:48:09 PM
Was Paul gay?
Unless archaeologists uncover a treasure trove of old writings that includes first-hand reports from one of his lovers, I don't think we'll ever know the answer to that.  Romans 7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+7&version=NIV) hints that he was struggling with some profound self-loathing about something related to his physical body, though.
I see the self-loathing in Romans 7 but I don't see the body reference. IMO the self-loathing and reference to coveting would imply an unwanted sexual desire. We could speculate that it was a desire for other men but I don't see (in that passage) any indication of that.

I have heard the idea presented that Paul was jealous of the "beloved" disciple; that he wanted to be the one loved by Jesus - not that I've read any confirmation of such speculation in the Bible.



As per Screwtape's instructions I will not continue the off topic exchange. Screwtape, a clarification please, I understood green to be the official moderation color and had said as such to a new member not too long ago. Was I in error and if so are all colors reserved or just green or just green and red?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Graybeard on July 15, 2013, 02:39:16 PM
...I explained my life's philosophy comes from Ancient Toltec Knowledge.
That is ridiculous. Please try to realise that just saying that you once read something about some belief system is not a reason for thinking you have any justification whatsoever:

Quote
Scholars such as Michel Graulich (2002) and Susan D. Gillespie (1989) maintained that the difficulties in salvaging historic data from the Aztec accounts of Toltec history are too great to overcome. For example, there are two supposed Toltec rulers identified with Quetzalcoatl: the first ruler and founder of the [wiki]Toltec [/wiki]dynasty and the last ruler, who saw the end of the Toltec glory and was forced into humiliation and exile. The first is described as a valiant triumphant warrior, but the last as a feeble and self-doubting old man. This caused Graulich and Gillespie to suggest that the general Aztec cyclical view of time, where events repeated themselves at the end and beginning of cycles or eras was being inscribed into the historical record by the Aztecs, making it futile to attempt to distinguish between a historical Topiltzin Ce Acatl and a Quetzalcoatl deity.

Quote
I believe in God, all the religious propaganda is hearsay.  I go by my own personal experience.  SPAG right?
I simply do not know what to make of that. Please, Junebug, read what you have written. There is no sense there whatsoever.

How long did the Toltecs worship Yahweh?

I don't think it is possible to debate someone who has absolutely no idea what they believe and simply make it up as they go along.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: screwtape on July 15, 2013, 03:47:07 PM
Screwtape, a clarification please, I understood green to be the official moderation color and had said as such to a new member not too long ago. Was I in error and if so are all colors reserved or just green or just green and red?

You are correct.  It is just green.  We originally picked green over red because we wanted something soothing, not inflamatory.  At least, that was what one particularly insistent and obnoxious mod thought...
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jaimehlers on July 15, 2013, 03:50:09 PM
Just to make it utterly clear, Junebug, I didn't do this to avoid your threat, I did it to rub your nose in how wrong you are but I found evidence of the real underlying problem:
I do need to point out that you're making a lot more out of the term "Intelligent Designer" than is really necessary.  On top of that, you're also nitpicking.  It's certainly true that she didn't use the term Intelligent Designer earlier than that in the thread, and had previously spoken of gods instead.  So what?  The whole ID thing was a transparent attempt by Christian theists to make an end run around legal restrictions against teaching religious doctrine in public schools.  The point being that it was intended as a way to talk about God without actually saying "God".
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Samothec on July 15, 2013, 04:02:33 PM
I do need to point out that you're making a lot more out of the term "Intelligent Designer" than is really necessary.  On top of that, you're also nitpicking.  It's certainly true that she didn't use the term Intelligent Designer earlier than that in the thread, and had previously spoken of gods instead.
Please reread what I actually wrote. She claimed ID was around before the Bible. I pointed out it wasn't. Then she changed her claim to saying that "gods" were around before the Bible which is true and if she had said that then we wouldn't be having this discussion. But she never did - she never used the term Designer and in fact insisted that she would only use the term "God". Again, read what each of us actually wrote. I'm tired of this and don't like being libeled[1] for which I did report her.
It would also be helpful if she would answer my question in #132 but I am not hopeful about that.

Also, ignore the claim, now false of "As per Screwtape's instructions I will not continue the off topic exchange." in my previous post.
 1. it sounds weird saying that instead of 'slandered' but this is written and not spoken
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: magicmiles on July 15, 2013, 04:22:42 PM

She claimed ID was around before the Bible. I pointed out it wasn't.

I'm quite sure it was, or at least the concept.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Traveler on July 15, 2013, 05:50:59 PM
I haven't read the whole thread, but what I'm seeing here, in terms of misunderstanding, seems to be a difference in thought processes. Call it right brain vs. left brain, or conceptual vs. detailed, touchy-feely vs. logical ...

In my opinion, there is a place for both. I know a lot of people who consider themselves spiritual but not religious. These tend to be folks who don't like to label their beliefs and/or practices. They often just enjoy whatever the experience is, without trying too hard to define it. In this case, it sounds like junebug likes to use the word "god." Some do that for lack of a better word, or because that word is what's common in our society, or simply so that others maybe sort of get a vague sense of what she might be talking about.

But here's the thing. If you're a conceptual person, having a life experience, and its important but vague, it is VERY hard to put it in words so that others understand it. It is VERY hard to defend it based on logic. It is VERY hard to explain it to a detail-oriented, logical, left brain kind of person.

In my case, if I have an "interesting experience," I try not to define it. It could be psychological (inner child word, dreams, fantasy). It could be something else. For me, it doesn't matter what it is, and I don't call it god. I simply call it an interesting experience, or if I'm around someone with a particular viewpoint, perhaps I call it a journey, or a meditation, or something. I might compare it to prayer or waking dream, though those are just comparisons.

I THINK, that perhaps junebug is somewhere in this realm of experience. In this hard-to-describe, not religiously organized, experiential, maybe-spiritual, stuff. It may take awhile for her to come up with words, or explanations, or ways of defending her experience. And, quite frankly, I'm not worried about her defending it. Some things simply can't be explained well, especially to someone who doesn't share a worldview, or a way of experiencing the world.

So, what's my point? I guess its this ... that this crowd can be a VERY tough one for anyone who doesn't look at the whole world experience with logic, and logic only. Someone like myself, who has been around this planet for a fairly long time, can often explain my right brain, conceptual experiences in ways that most can understand. But younger persons, or persons more steeped in a christian background, who chooses to use words like "god," are going to have a tough time getting through.

Again, I haven't read through the whole thread, so I might be missing something major. But I find viewpoints that differ from "militant atheist" and "born again christian nutjob" very refreshing, regardless of the form it takes. At least its different. :)
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: The Gawd on July 15, 2013, 08:51:20 PM
@Trav

yeah yeah yeah, but she believes in the Jesus story and finds it admirable what he did for mankind...
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Azdgari on July 15, 2013, 08:53:20 PM
Traveler, isn't that more a difference of standards vs no standards?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Traveler on July 15, 2013, 11:51:45 PM
Traveler, isn't that more a difference of standards vs no standards?


Well, speaking for myself, no, I don't think that. I can't speak for the OP, because I haven't read all her stuff. The difference, to me, is whether one says "this is my experience," vs. "this is the one-and-only truth." We all have our subjective experience. I do, you do, everyone does. Some people's interpretation of their subjective experiences more closely approximate reality than others.

As for the jesus story, which one? The one that nicey-nice ministers tell from the pulpit? Lots of people believe it. As a myth, its not necessarily horrible, up to a point. The actual bible story? I think its scary as hell and pretty damn violent. If he was a kind, gentle, hippie guy who only wanted to help people, what kind of asshole god would want him tortured to death? Ok, now my bias is showing.  ;)

I don't know what to tell you, because I most certainly do not believe in the jesus story, the bible, or any abrahamic religion I've ever heard of. But what I'm hearing from her is that she doesn't either. For her, perhaps, jesus is metaphorical. I don't know ... I'm edging too far into the speculative at this point. Far be it for me to interpret her beliefs. But that's my point, actually. That some are telling her what her beliefs are, and then denying them. Instead, we need to try to understand just what she's actually trying to tell us. We do it all the time here. Interpret all folks who self-identify as christians as if they are bible literalists, and if they're not that they're not true christians. Where have I heard those arguments before? Oh, yeah, from bible literalists.  :o

Tell you what, before I dig myself even deeper. I'll try to scrape up some time to read through the entire thread (gak) and then I'll have a more informed opinion on this exact example, rather than on general theories of how folks interact re: spiritual misunderstandings. Because you guys are talking about specific examples and I'm merely proposing a hypothesis about interactions like these.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 16, 2013, 05:49:27 AM
Can you believe a smite for a sincere  take care guys.  Not one of them had given a summary of the link I provided.  That's when I knew it was just fun and games at my expense.  They are not the least bit sincere about understanding me. Anybody can twist words and confuse.  My beliefs are not this complicated. I am spiritual but not religious.  Religions use people's spirit/conscience for profit and control.  I am not a part of that.
Junebug72 -

This is what is incredibly frustrating to me.  Look through this whole thread for what out back-and-forth had been like up until post #112.  I had in absolute sincerity made an attempt to understand what your beliefs are.  I started with a summary of what I thought your beliefs were.  You then corrected me on a few points, in which case I sincerely apologized for misconstruing you, and I made corrections to my initial summary.  Your next post to me was then to again complain to me for misunderstanding you the first time, which, BTW, I did attempt to explain the source of my misunderstanding.

It's the conversations following that where I am just at a loss.

Your complaint, sometime after my second summary (this post here: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25104.msg560573.html#msg560573) that:
Quote
Jdawg I've said time and time again I don't believe in the myth of Jesus as you are suggesting.  I only think his existence as a man is likely.

I then asked for clarification where, in my second summation, I implied that you believed in the myth of Jesus or have a personal relationship with him.  You then proceed to quote my first summation and bold the point of contention.  I then pointed you to my second summation, which did not include such discourse, and frankly included no indication, whatsoever, that you accept the biblical myth of Jesus or have a personal relationship with him.  I repost a link to that second summation, which you say you did not miss it.  Yet you continually talk down to me as if I never said any of the words I did in the second summation.

You can yell at me all you want, but the obvious fact, at least in the first 3.5 pages of conversation in this thread, is that I sincerely wanted to understand what you believe.  I don't know if it's just the number of posters that have put their 2 cents in and you're conflating what other people had be saying to you with what I've been saying, but COME.  THE.  FUCK.  ON.  GET OVER THIS PERSECUTION COMPLEX - PLEASE.  It's making me embarrassed for you.

No Jdawg you were not trying to understand me.  You were trying to prove I'm something I'm not.  That is just very irritating to say the least.  Just go back and read the thread.  The only exceptable outcome for you was for me to admit being christian.  You have to claim to be a christian to be a christian. 

You lost this debate.

I have no persecution complex.  I just don't like being told who I am by somebody that doesn't know me; relentlessly.  I wonder how you would handle being called an idiot and a liar by strangers on the web;relentlessly.

If you are sincere please tell me now that you understand I'm not a christian.  I am spiritual not religious.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 16, 2013, 06:18:12 AM
I use the word God so that all people recognize who I'm talking about.  If I said the bible is a disgrace to The Great Scientist, most religious folk would just say oh well It's God's word.  To say it is a disgrace to God points directly to their God, to all concepts of god.

As far as this Jesus confusion.  I don't know why Jdawg is so confused.  I believe that Jesus could have existed as a man.  I don't believe the embellishments so much.  I do not follow that religion. 

If I was to give God a name that's not God I would call God, Love.  The bible is a disgrace to Love.  I believe in the Power of Love!!!
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jdawg70 on July 16, 2013, 08:31:58 AM
No Jdawg you were not trying to understand me.  You were trying to prove I'm something I'm not.  That is just very irritating to say the least.  Just go back and read the thread.  The only exceptable outcome for you was for me to admit being christian.  You have to claim to be a christian to be a christian. 
I struggle to see where, at any point in time in this thread, I ever said you were a Christian.  I went back and read the thread.  I wasn't trying to prove a damn thing.  I was trying to clarify what it is you believe.
Quote
You lost this debate.
Not sure what I was debating.  I certainly didn't have any sort of debate in mind.  I was trying to understand your beliefs.
Quote
I have no persecution complex.  I just don't like being told who I am by somebody that doesn't know me; relentlessly.  I wonder how you would handle being called an idiot and a liar by strangers on the web;relentlessly.
I AM NOT NAM.
Quote
If you are sincere please tell me now that you understand I'm not a christian.  I am spiritual not religious.
Again, not sure where I said you were a Christian.

As far as this Jesus confusion.  I don't know why Jdawg is so confused.  I believe that Jesus could have existed as a man.  I don't believe the embellishments so much.  I do not follow that religion. 
I'm confused because you seem to be so damn adamant about not reading what I say and just assuming I'm attacking you.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Samothec on July 16, 2013, 02:05:44 PM
You didn't provide any proof of your claim against me; "I denied using the term  Intelligent Design."   
I never said that and it is dishonest of you to put it in quotes. You used the term Intelligent Design – that was my point – that you used ID instead of saying God/Designer/The Great Scientist. You created the confusion.

Yes, I am avoiding any comment about the libelous statement as I cannot do so without getting very upset.

All confusion should have cleared away as soon as I explained the use of the term. 
But you didn't explain. Several of us repeatedly ask you to explain but instead of explaining you get upset and claim we're putting words in your mouth when the reverse is more accurate.

I did find this upon rereading more of the thread than just our posts addressed to each other:
I swear, I'm speaking of the theory of gods.  People thought of gods before the bible was written.  It was not bible then the idea.
Unfortunately you did not address this to me so I missed it when going back over the posts for my post (#132). And you did not reference the term ID here so when I first read it I didn't not see any connection. So this has been a misunderstanding. I am sorry for my part in it. Please be more careful with your wording as it will stop most of the confusion and questions.[1]

It is downright childish of any of you to continue this insistence of Christianity.  That religion hates me.  They condemn me to hell right above you.  At least you're not an abomination!!!  I would rather be called a whore, slut, scalawag, or an idiot than be put in that box.  You are disregarding a lot of Christian tradition to call me one.
Why do you assume that you are the only one here considered an abomination? You are far from being the only one.
There are a disappointing large number of gays and lesbians who are still Christian. Being hated by their own religion doesn't change the fact that they believe. <<< Please note that I said "they" not "you". I shouldn't have to say that but I feel I need to do so.
 1. but this isn't the first time I've asked you to be more careful with your terminology
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jaimehlers on July 16, 2013, 03:29:30 PM
Please reread what I actually wrote. She claimed ID was around before the Bible. I pointed out it wasn't. Then she changed her claim to saying that "gods" were around before the Bible which is true and if she had said that then we wouldn't be having this discussion. But she never did - she never used the term Designer and in fact insisted that she would only use the term "God". Again, read what each of us actually wrote. I'm tired of this and don't like being libeled[1] for which I did report her.
It would also be helpful if she would answer my question in #132 but I am not hopeful about that.
 1. it sounds weird saying that instead of 'slandered' but this is written and not spoken
You're making a much bigger deal out of this whole thing than is necessary.

Think about it.  All you really needed to show was that she was being careless with her terminology.  You did not and do not need to harangue her over her use of the term "Intelligent Design" where she meant "gods".  Certainly not when the likelihood is that she simply conflated ID and gods in her head.  That comes across as nitpicking, and it doesn't help your case.

At this point, it's up to you if you want to keep on with this, but personally, I'd try to let it go.  One of the reasons slander and libel are illegal is because people, who do not know the person being libeled or slandered, might believe these false representations of that person.  Do you think that's going to be the case here, in this forum?  By all means, if you feel she misrepresented you, call her on it, but don't let her get to you.

By the way, screwtape's instructions were to the bickering between Nam and junebug.  I don't think something like this is off-topic,
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 17, 2013, 06:36:30 AM


[/nb] what you meant when you were clear the first time around – because you didn't like being told you were wrong--- You repeatedly insisted that you only refer to the creator as 'God' and have never before (in this thread) said "Intelligent Designer".--- Now, I could gather quotes from you proving you wrong here[1]. But I don't feel like wasting all that time since you will try to weasel out of the facts. So, you get to prove you meant 'God' every time you referenced ID (Intelligent Design - not the Designer) being around before the bible. You won't be able to – you will only find that your own words prove you wrong. OR you can show that you are worth talking to by apologizing and admit you were wrong.
 1. Claiming that you meant 'gods' when every time you implied if not directly stated that you meant ID "theory".


I never said this. I asked you for proof and you went rambling off , changing words in my statements, talking about rubbing my nose in it.  Either prove it or apologize please.

Who's weaseling?


I never said that and it is dishonest of you to put it in quotes. You used the term Intelligent Design – that was my point – that you used ID instead of saying God/Designer/The Great Scientist. You created the confusion.

Yes, I am avoiding any comment about the libelous statement as I cannot do so without getting very upset.


But you didn't explain. Several of us repeatedly ask you to explain but instead of explaining you get upset and claim we're putting words in your mouth when the reverse is more accurate.

I did find this upon rereading more of the thread than just our posts addressed to each other:

Unfortunately you did not address this to me so I missed it when going back over the posts for my post (#132). And you did not reference the term ID here so when I first read it I didn't not see any connection. So this has been a misunderstanding. I am sorry for my part in it. Please be more careful with your wording as it will stop most of the confusion and questions.[2]


Why do you assume that you are the only one here considered an abomination? You are far from being the only one.
There are a disappointing large number of gays and lesbians who are still Christian. Being hated by their own religion doesn't change the fact that they believe. <<< Please note that I said "they" not "you". I shouldn't have to say that but I feel I need to do so.
 2. but this isn't the first time I've asked you to be more careful with your terminology

You said it ^^^ it's right up there.  I'm sure there is a post addressed to you with similar subject matter.  That's the reason you gave me the advice then about the terms I was using.  I then explained why I use the terms I use.  It's just your way of saying I'm sorry but it's all your fault. 

I will from now on refer to God as Love.  I hope this can clear up some confusion.  It will take some getting used to. ;)

You know what, I don't care about pies and mud I just want to be accepted for who I am.   You can not criticize my beliefs if you don't understand it.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jdawg70 on July 17, 2013, 09:06:14 AM
No Jdawg you were not trying to understand me.  You were trying to prove I'm something I'm not.  That is just very irritating to say the least.  Just go back and read the thread.  The only exceptable outcome for you was for me to admit being christian.  You have to claim to be a christian to be a christian. 
I struggle to see where, at any point in time in this thread, I ever said you were a Christian.  I went back and read the thread.  I wasn't trying to prove a damn thing.  I was trying to clarify what it is you believe.
Quote
You lost this debate.
Not sure what I was debating.  I certainly didn't have any sort of debate in mind.  I was trying to understand your beliefs.
Quote
I have no persecution complex.  I just don't like being told who I am by somebody that doesn't know me; relentlessly.  I wonder how you would handle being called an idiot and a liar by strangers on the web;relentlessly.
I AM NOT NAM.
Quote
If you are sincere please tell me now that you understand I'm not a christian.  I am spiritual not religious.
Again, not sure where I said you were a Christian.

As far as this Jesus confusion.  I don't know why Jdawg is so confused.  I believe that Jesus could have existed as a man.  I don't believe the embellishments so much.  I do not follow that religion. 
I'm confused because you seem to be so damn adamant about not reading what I say and just assuming I'm attacking you.

You smited me for this post, claiming that I've been insisting that you are a Christian.

I...I dunno.  I'm at a complete loss.  There just appears to be a massive disparity between what I think I'm saying to you and what you think I'm saying to you.

My level of frustration at this point is high enough where it is getting difficult for me to look at our conversation here objectively.  If the cause of the disparity is primarily on my end, I'm going to need someone to point it out to me.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: wheels5894 on July 17, 2013, 10:16:59 AM
...
You know what, I don't care about pies and mud I just want to be accepted for who I am.   You can not criticize my beliefs if you don't understand it.

Look, June, it is obvious that people are not understanding your beliefs. I don't know why but I think it is some confusion over Jesus and the NT. So, to save any more confusion, could you state, simply, what your beliefs are and then we might be able to rescue this thread. 

Thanks
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 17, 2013, 03:20:03 PM
...
You know what, I don't care about pies and mud I just want to be accepted for who I am.   You can not criticize my beliefs if you don't understand it.

Look, June, it is obvious that people are not understanding your beliefs. I don't know why but I think it is some confusion over Jesus and the NT. So, to save any more confusion, could you state, simply, what your beliefs are and then we might be able to rescue this thread. 

Thanks

Well it ain't because I haven't explained them enough already.  There is absolutely nothing confusing about I am not a christian, Is there?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Azdgari on July 17, 2013, 03:21:55 PM
There wouldn't be, but when you've also given the impression that you believe in a divine Christ, it's hard to reconcile that with "not Christian".

Can you see how some people would find that confusing?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: wheels5894 on July 17, 2013, 03:38:55 PM
...
You know what, I don't care about pies and mud I just want to be accepted for who I am.   You can not criticize my beliefs if you don't understand it.

Look, June, it is obvious that people are not understanding your beliefs. I don't know why but I think it is some confusion over Jesus and the NT. So, to save any more confusion, could you state, simply, what your beliefs are and then we might be able to rescue this thread. 

Thanks

Well it ain't because I haven't explained them enough already.  There is absolutely nothing confusing about I am not a Christian, Is there?

Ah, June, that's what you don't believe. I'm asking exactly what you do believe. It is not clear to me, and other I suspect, which god you believe in, whether Jesus has something to do with your belief etc. Please make it easy for us and say juts what you actually believe, please.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jaimehlers on July 17, 2013, 04:09:13 PM
Well it ain't because I haven't explained them enough already.  There is absolutely nothing confusing about I am not a christian, Is there?
A Muslim, a Jew, a Hindu, a Shinto Buddhist, or a member of any of the other dozens of religions out there could also say that they were not a Christian, and it would be absolutely true - but it would not help people determine what they did believe.

Also, the fact that you talk about things that resonate with Christianity (like Jesus Christ himself, like "God is Love", and so on), doesn't make it any easier to figure out what you do believe.

My suggestion is that you assume nobody here has ever heard of your own particular religion (or if you prefer, belief system) and attempt to describe it in terms of what you believe.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Samothec on July 17, 2013, 06:06:33 PM
junebug72,
...prove it ...
Okay:
I could call my interpretation of this power, The Great Scientist.  I don't believe The Great Scientist willed anything into existence but built it with the elements of the universe and an endless supply of intelligence.  I like "God" better so I'm sticking with that. 

I took you at your word - that you would only be using the term God. In other discussions here you used the term Intelligent Design which refers to the theory that the Designer made the universe billions of years ago and set up evolution but guided things.[1] When you used the term ID you made some incorrect claims which I pointed out. You then claimed you meant to say "god" instead of ID. When I went back the first time just looking at our replies to each other, I found no support for your claim making it false so I said that. Upon further reading I found in a post not addressed to me that you had indirectly sort of corrected yourself. So I offered the only apology I owe you. You have not even done that much for me.


jdawg70,
The disparity is not on your end.


jaimehlers,
One of the reasons slander and libel are illegal is because people, who do not know the person being libeled or slandered, might believe these false representations of that person.  Do you think that's going to be the case here, in this forum? 
I have no idea. People defended her. There was a neutral statement but I was taught not to see those as supportive.

I was going to stop but I made the mistake of coming back to this thread again.
 1. A quick crappy description of ID
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 18, 2013, 06:33:52 AM
junebug72,
...prove it ...
Okay:
I could call my interpretation of this power, The Great Scientist.  I don't believe The Great Scientist willed anything into existence but built it with the elements of the universe and an endless supply of intelligence.  I like "God" better so I'm sticking with that. 

I took you at your word - that you would only be using the term God. In other discussions here you used the term Intelligent Design which refers to the theory that the Designer made the universe billions of years ago and set up evolution but guided things.[1] When you used the term ID you made some incorrect claims which I pointed out. You then claimed you meant to say "god" instead of ID. When I went back the first time just looking at our replies to each other, I found no support for your claim making it false so I said that. Upon further reading I found in a post not addressed to me that you had indirectly sort of corrected yourself. So I offered the only apology I owe you. You have not even done that much for me.


jdawg70,
The disparity is not on your end.


jaimehlers,
One of the reasons slander and libel are illegal is because people, who do not know the person being libeled or slandered, might believe these false representations of that person.  Do you think that's going to be the case here, in this forum? 
I have no idea. People defended her. There was a neutral statement but I was taught not to see those as supportive.

I was going to stop but I made the mistake of coming back to this thread again.

 1. A quick crappy description of ID

Still tap dancing.  I do not owe you an apology.  I have done you no wrong.  Using terms that you understand to mean something besides what I mean them to does not warrant an apology.  I did clarify my use of the terms in question. 

I never gave you my word God was the only term I would use.  You still haven't proven anything.  You can't there's nothing there.  That's why I will not apologize to you.  I have done you no wrong.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 18, 2013, 06:48:50 AM
There wouldn't be, but when you've also given the impression that you believe in a divine Christ, it's hard to reconcile that with "not Christian".

Can you see how some people would find that confusing?
See this is the problem with words.  Use that word divine and you misrepresent what I have told you.  Why can't anybody here understand the difference in believing Jesus was a HUMAN not a demi god.  It is my interpretation of the story.  Nothing more.  It's not that complicated.  There's a lot more to me that what I believe about Jesus.  If i was a proclaimed christian y'all just call me a hypocrite and a fool. 
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jaimehlers on July 18, 2013, 07:57:29 AM
Still tap dancing.  I do not owe you an apology.  I have done you no wrong.  Using terms that you understand to mean something besides what I mean them to does not warrant an apology.  I did clarify my use of the terms in question. 

I never gave you my word God was the only term I would use.  You still haven't proven anything.  You can't there's nothing there.  That's why I will not apologize to you.  I have done you no wrong.
You know how this makes you sound?  It makes you sound like someone who cares about her reputation more than about doing the right thing, and frankly, that makes you look like a jerk who isn't even worth the time of day.  Like it or not, you've been fairly inconsistent in this regard and others - for example, in actually describing your beliefs so that other people here can figure out what you are rather than what you're not, not just in how you refer to God.  You've talked about God, you've talked about ID (in terms of God), you've talked about the Great Scientist, and now you're talking about Love (in terms of God).  Small wonder that people are starting to lose patience with you when you can't even keep things straight in your own writing.

Whether or not you owe Samothec an apology, you should give him one anyway, simply because it's the right thing to do regardless of who's at fault.  You know how quickly that would have defused the situation, if you had simply apologized for your inconsistency in terms you used?  Instead, you reacted as if you were being challenged and attempted to smack him down.  And now you need to apologize for that too.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: screwtape on July 18, 2013, 08:02:35 AM
Why can't anybody here understand the difference in believing Jesus was a HUMAN not a demi god.

We can.  It is a pretty simple idea.  Perhaps you have not communicated as effectively as you thought?  Have you come right out and used those words?  I know frequently people here jump the gun, make assumptions or just do a bad job of reading.  But it is also true that people - everyone, myself included - do a less than adequated job expressing themselves as well. 

That is a universal problem with attempting to communicate.  The communicator may think she's communicated exactly what she intends, and the person hearing it may think she perfectly understands.  But they can still be completely out of synch.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Samothec on July 18, 2013, 04:22:35 PM
Junebug has indeed said before, and fairly clearly, that she only admires Jesus as a human being and not as the Christ. It is one of the few things she has been clear about. Although she has also said something along the lines of her having a relationship with Jesus which only confuses the issue a bit. IIRC both are earlier in this thread.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: xyzzy on July 18, 2013, 07:37:27 PM
Junebug, it would be so helpful if you could just start from the beginning and explain what it is that you do believe. Right now, with all the back and forth, it's difficult to put it all together and the misunderstandings are likely to proliferate.

Also, let me suggest that you take a moment to define terms that might be misunderstood. For example, when most hear of a god - particularly when coupled with words referring to the bible, or Jesus, intelligent design, "Love", etc - it's just not possible to know that you have a understanding that isn't represented in those "traditional" views. So, for example, how about: "Well, I believe that god <insert JB beliefs>". Now, by god, I don't mean the god of the bible but...". Or, perhaps you do, but your belief in Yahweh stems from something else? I really can't tell. So If so, perhaps you could elucidate that origin?

Another thing that would really help your case is how you got from where you were to where you are now. Yes, you've said some of that, but by putting it one place we can all move on from there. For example, if I understood correctly, you used to believe that god Yahweh? hated you for being gay. Now you believe the exact opposite. But is that the same god, or is it some other god, or is this just some concept called god for convenience, or maybe you are not even sure of which it is?

Now this is not a criticism of you in particular, but maybe because you've never really had to elucidate your beliefs to such a critical audience, it might be that you aren't really that clear on how best to communicate this or, indeed, how your audience perceives your words. This is really common in many fields; often it's only when we have to explain things to a group of non-peers that we realise we don't actually have a coherent verbal explanation, even if we do so "internally". That's why defining or clarifying your terms in order to anticipate some of the questions really helps to get your audience on the right track.

OK this is much longer than I intended but I'm trying to be clear and, hopefully, helpful. Finally, it really does seem as if people want to understand your beliefs. So please. Start again from the beginning.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: The Gawd on July 18, 2013, 07:57:06 PM
And also can you explain how you came your conclusions about Jesus? You referenced before his "teachings" and "sacrifice"
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: neopagan on July 18, 2013, 08:40:05 PM
FYI - junebug is having cancer surgery today from what she has said in another thread - you might not hear from her for a bit

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,24999.msg563241.html#msg563241
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 19, 2013, 05:22:40 AM
I am Spiritual not Religious.  It means I believe in a creator not religion.  I believe in LOVE.

It's that simple.

GOT LOVE?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: xyzzy on July 19, 2013, 05:56:57 AM
I am Spiritual not Religious.  It means I believe in a creator not religion.  I believe in LOVE.

It's that simple.

GOT LOVE?

Junebug, not it's not that simple. At least not to me. Perhaps you didn't get a chance to read some of the later posts, but the intention in asking you to explain what you believe deliberately avoided words such as religion and Christianity. I'm trying but I really do not understand what you believe any better than before.

These are not trick questions but what does "I believe in a creator" mean? Just that and absolutely and completely nothing else - somewhat akin to a deist position?

Somehow, though, I think you have more to offer.

Seriously, who, what, why, how, when? Is it still active, is it intercessory, how do you communicate if at all? Again, how did your beliefs evolve from your previous position to what they are now? Did you consider yourself a Christian at that time? Neopagan observed that you reference Jesus. What is your source, and your views on that person? I think it's that he was a preacher but not necessarily divine but I'm trying really hard to understand you from the perspective of a clean slate. It's been said before, but if it's the case, "I don't know" is an acceptable and honest answer.

Again, I'm suggesting that you start afresh without the confusion that keeps being related to earlier comments (that's an observation without suggestion of blame to any party). I can't see a better way for us all to escape this current confusion and this is coming from someone who hasn't attacked you or characterized you in a negative manner.

You mention "Love". Perhaps your experience is as much, or even more, visceral than it is explained in concept and words?

Really, I don't want to labor the point but I'm genuinely asking you to start again so that you can expand upon your beliefs. I understand that you've had somewhat of a rough time here, and that's why I'm trying to find a line between putting words in your mouth and suggesting concepts that might better explain your position. Personally, I wouldn't have spent so long crafting these posts if all I wanted to do was to snipe at someone.

Please, take some time to give as full of an answer as you can. You're here, please let us give you the opportunity to educate us on your beliefs. Please. Pretty please? And of course, best wishes for your speedy recovery.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: William on July 19, 2013, 12:44:17 PM
I am Spiritual not Religious.

The Creative Department at Jim Beam Distillery would pay a lot for that idea  ;) :laugh:
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on July 19, 2013, 02:11:23 PM
I am Spiritual not Religious.
There is something outside of herself that she recognizes but doesn't worship, doesn't observe in an organised manner.
Quote
It means I believe in a creator not religion.
Some type of sentient force initiated the beginning of the universe.  This force does not require group meetings to acknowledge it.
Quote
I believe in LOVE.
Self explanatory.
Quote
It's that simple.
It really is that simple if you don't nitpick.
Quote
GOT LOVE?
Yes, just not named god.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Samothec on July 19, 2013, 06:46:45 PM
Off topic:
I have sent a request to several of the admins & moderators to withdraw my report of junebug72 regarding libelous statements. While my position on the statements has not changed, my position on other things has changed so that, with other's voiced opinions, makes the report pointless. This is a part of my endeavor to stop as requested.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 21, 2013, 09:36:22 AM
Good morning Every Body,

I'm sorry I do not have any time left right now to elaborate on my beliefs.  I will address this first thing in the morning if not later today. 

Samothec,

You have impressed me greatly.  You rock!!

Take care
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 22, 2013, 07:24:12 AM
The definition of spiritual not religious for me is to search for God from your soul not from a book or religious teachings.  I looked into religions and I found that there were positive and negative components with all of them.  Unbelievable claims and such. So I got the idea in my head after 7-8 years of atheism that God can exist w/o religion.  W/o religion God is Love to me.  There is a Power that comes from Love.  Love defeats hate.  Always has, always will!!! 

Yes I know a lot about Jesus.  I grew up fundamental baptist.  I don't believe the church is what Jesus wanted.  From what I read Jesus would not like these churches at all.  He spoke very strongly against long prayers/robes, money changing hands at the temple, and judging.   He gave his life for what he believed.  I will not dishonor him even if he is not real.  It is a beautiful story of Love.  I believe that it is very possible/likely that Jesus existed and that he Loved his fellow man that much.  I believe that Jesus was spiritual not religious. 

So you see I will not take the title of christian out of respect for Jesus not disrespect.  Not because I consider him a God either, because I consider him a great and Loving "man".

Now that being said I don't close my mind up there.  I believe there is more to learn about God that what we find in religious books.  I believe firmly that religion can block the path to God even make God look pathetic as I have indicated in this thread. 

So I hope this helps you understand me better. 

Take care now ;)

 
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: William on July 22, 2013, 08:12:38 AM
So I got the idea in my head after 7-8 years of atheism that God can exist w/o religion.  W/o religion God is Love to me.  There is a Power that comes from Love.  Love defeats hate.  Always has, always will!!!
Absolutely marvellous! I can work with this idea!  Where is the smilie for clap/applause?  :angel:

I believe there is more to learn about God that what we find in religious books.  I believe firmly that religion can block the path to God even make God look pathetic as I have indicated in this thread.
Yes, religion does make God look pathetic - and I've been supporting you, Junebug72, in this for some time now.

The next step is ... where can we look to find any divine provided/inspired info about this fairly illusive God of Love?  Or is it maybe a Human creation - a synthesis of our combined better inner selves!?  Somewhat in line with the completely Human-made and rigorously peer-reviewed philosophy of Humanism?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jdawg70 on July 22, 2013, 11:09:50 AM
The definition of spiritual not religious for me is to search for God from your soul not from a book or religious teachings.  I looked into religions and I found that there were positive and negative components with all of them.  Unbelievable claims and such. So I got the idea in my head after 7-8 years of atheism that God can exist w/o religion.  W/o religion God is Love to me.  There is a Power that comes from Love.  Love defeats hate.  Always has, always will!!! 

Yes I know a lot about Jesus.  I grew up fundamental baptist.  I don't believe the church is what Jesus wanted.  From what I read Jesus would not like these churches at all.  He spoke very strongly against long prayers/robes, money changing hands at the temple, and judging.   He gave his life for what he believed.  I will not dishonor him even if he is not real.  It is a beautiful story of Love.  I believe that it is very possible/likely that Jesus existed and that he Loved his fellow man that much.  I believe that Jesus was spiritual not religious. 

So you see I will not take the title of christian out of respect for Jesus not disrespect.  Not because I consider him a God either, because I consider him a great and Loving "man".

Now that being said I don't close my mind up there.  I believe there is more to learn about God that what we find in religious books.  I believe firmly that religion can block the path to God even make God look pathetic as I have indicated in this thread. 

So I hope this helps you understand me better. 

Take care now ;)
That certainly is a more direct elaboration on what it is you believe, so thank you for that.  Reading through it, if I were to summarize how I understand your beliefs, I once again refer to this post:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25104.msg560573.html#msg560573

I think that summary still applies.  I also think that the follow-up questions I have there are still valid and deserving of response.  If I'm still mistaken on your beliefs, could you point out what those mistakes are so I can correct?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on July 23, 2013, 01:08:57 AM
FYI - junebug is having cancer surgery today from what she has said in another thread - you might not hear from her for a bit

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,24999.msg563241.html#msg563241

She posted the next day (stated in her reply right after yours), who gets on the internet right after they have major surgery? I know: those who don't have surgery and just say they do.

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on July 23, 2013, 01:42:10 AM
FYI - junebug is having cancer surgery today from what she has said in another thread - you might not hear from her for a bit

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,24999.msg563241.html#msg563241

She posted the next day (stated in her reply right after yours), who gets on the internet right after they have major surgery? I know: those who don't have surgery and just say they do.

-Nam

Lumpectomy is same day surgery.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 23, 2013, 01:59:19 AM
So I got the idea in my head after 7-8 years of atheism that God can exist w/o religion.  W/o religion God is Love to me.  There is a Power that comes from Love.  Love defeats hate.  Always has, always will!!!
Absolutely marvellous! I can work with this idea!  Where is the smilie for clap/applause?  :angel:

I believe there is more to learn about God that what we find in religious books.  I believe firmly that religion can block the path to God even make God look pathetic as I have indicated in this thread.
Yes, religion does make God look pathetic - and I've been supporting you, Junebug72, in this for some time now.

The next step is ... where can we look to find any divine provided/inspired info about this fairly illusive God of Love?  Or is it maybe a Human creation - a synthesis of our combined better inner selves!?  Somewhat in line with the completely Human-made and rigorously peer-reviewed philosophy of Humanism?

Your heart.  I don't care where Love comes from.  I know it exists and humans are better off when they have Love. 

It is not really my goal to convince you of God.  It was at first but minds and goals do change.  Now my only goal is to convince atheists that not everybody that believes in God is a hater and that you fix this with Love not hate.  Two wrongs don't make a right.  My sweet mother taught me that.  RIP

Thanks William for opening your mind and heart to me. ;) I will show you the same respect.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 23, 2013, 02:06:54 AM
FYI - junebug is having cancer surgery today from what she has said in another thread - you might not hear from her for a bit

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,24999.msg563241.html#msg563241

She posted the next day (stated in her reply right after yours), who gets on the internet right after they have major surgery? I know: those who don't have surgery and just say they do.

-Nam

Lumpectomy is same day surgery.

Thanks Lori. 


Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 23, 2013, 03:20:45 AM

That certainly is a more direct elaboration on what it is you believe, so thank you for that.  Reading through it, if I were to summarize how I understand your beliefs, I once again refer to this post:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25104.msg560573.html#msg560573

I think that summary still applies.  I also think that the follow-up questions I have there are still valid and deserving of response.  If I'm still mistaken on your beliefs, could you point out what those mistakes are so I can correct?

I'm sorry J, I'm cornfused, southern slang.  I got reply #58 and it's not a summary of my beliefs.  Maybe you meant another one. 

I can tell you this if your summary still insists I have a personal relationship with Jesus you are still wrong.  He is a man I admire not worship.  I do not have a relationship with Jesus.  I am not religious I am spiritual.  I look for inspiration in many places, mostly from within my own self-consciousness, not much from books or religions at all.  I believe in LOVE.  I believe in Love because I have put it to work in my own life with very positive results. 

I really do want to communicate my beliefs clearly to you but you have to help me out with an open mind and heart.

I just want to point out that you and TheGawd have identical profile pictures so I might have gotten y'all cornfused too.  I'm sorry if that is the case here.  I'll check later I just want people here to know that I am not at all afraid to apologize to someone.  I think it shows a fine characteristic in a person.  A very admirable thing to do.

Check out this picture it is real taken two days ago in Palm Beach:

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Graybeard on July 23, 2013, 07:38:00 AM
FYI - junebug is having cancer surgery today from what she has said in another thread - you might not hear from her for a bit

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,24999.msg563241.html#msg563241

She posted the next day (stated in her reply right after yours), who gets on the internet right after they have major surgery? I know: those who don't have surgery and just say they do.

-Nam

Steady, nam... you're a bit too ready with your implications. You may owe junebug an apology.

GB mod
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 23, 2013, 08:40:56 AM
FYI - junebug is having cancer surgery today from what she has said in another thread - you might not hear from her for a bit

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,24999.msg563241.html#msg563241

She posted the next day (stated in her reply right after yours), who gets on the internet right after they have major surgery? I know: those who don't have surgery and just say they do.

-Nam

Steady, nam... you're a bit too ready with your implications. You may owe junebug an apology.

GB mod



No, you know what, scratch it all.  I don't need an apology.  I wish he'd just let this grudge match go.  I am not the reason for his anger.   It is certainly not productive for either one of us.  Hatefulness is accomplishing nothing.  Darwin's are useless.  I would really just like to call a truce.  I can certainly forgive and forget, it's what I believe in. 

No it's not easy I was very hurt by that comment.  It's only words though; right?  It's just I feel that strongly about LOVE.  I will love Nam no matter what he says to me.  I actually feel the need to love him more than any one else here right now.  It is possible to love a stranger.  Thumbs down me all you want to Nam I'm still going to show you Love and kindness.  You will not bring me to tears, anger or frustration ever again.  Life is short dude be happy and let your anger go.  Your only hurting yourself.

Take Care Now,

Junebug

Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jaimehlers on July 23, 2013, 09:35:02 AM
She posted the next day (stated in her reply right after yours), who gets on the internet right after they have major surgery? I know: those who don't have surgery and just say they do.
Who would get on the internet right after that?  I would.  It's something you can do while prone, without taxing yourself too heavily.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Mrjason on July 23, 2013, 10:28:07 AM
She posted the next day (stated in her reply right after yours), who gets on the internet right after they have major surgery? I know: those who don't have surgery and just say they do.
Who would get on the internet right after that?  I would.  It's something you can do while prone, without taxing yourself too heavily.

I had one of these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dentofacial_osteotomy) and hip surgery at the same time. The only thing i could do was go on the internet for a couple of weeks
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jdawg70 on July 23, 2013, 10:54:19 AM
I'm sorry J, I'm cornfused, southern slang.  I got reply #58 and it's not a summary of my beliefs.  Maybe you meant another one. 

I can tell you this if your summary still insists I have a personal relationship with Jesus you are still wrong.  He is a man I admire not worship.  I do not have a relationship with Jesus.  I am not religious I am spiritual.  I look for inspiration in many places, mostly from within my own self-consciousness, not much from books or religions at all.  I believe in LOVE.  I believe in Love because I have put it to work in my own life with very positive results. 

I really do want to communicate my beliefs clearly to you but you have to help me out with an open mind and heart.
!!!!! A-ha!  I think I now understand a big bit of the source of confusion here.  The culprit: web browsers (I'm going to go ahead and blame JavaScript, but I blame everything on JavaScript).

The link I've posted to you a few times was supposed to bring you to the page and then jump to the specific post in question.  Apparently on your end it is going to the page but not jumping to the specific post.  The particular post I'm referring to is #69.
Quote
I just want to point out that you and TheGawd have identical profile pictures so I might have gotten y'all cornfused too.  I'm sorry if that is the case here.  I'll check later I just want people here to know that I am not at all afraid to apologize to someone.  I think it shows a fine characteristic in a person.  A very admirable thing to do.
Well they're not the same, but they do look pretty similar.  If you're looking at this on a small screen or mobile device I can kinda see that.

By-the-by, his avatar is named Riley; mine is named Johnny.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: William on July 23, 2013, 10:11:16 PM
Your heart.  I don't care where Love comes from.  I know it exists and humans are better off when they have Love.
I agree with most of that  :)
Humans (and a lot of animals) are hard-wired for love. Love is natural.

The "heart" bit I'm not so sure about  ;D - but I'm okay with that idea because I think you do know what your heart actually is and that it's a short-hand traditional phrase used to articulate a broader self-knowledge.

I respect that you: "don't care where Love comes from."  In many ways it doesn't matter where love comes from - because love simply works so splendidly in most situations  :)
I'd like to offer you another angle on it though - not caring about where love comes from has lead you to substitute a nebulous idea of "God" a "Creator" to plug that gap.  You are free to do that of course but that's where a lot of atheists are finding it difficult to come to terms with your position - and some have tried to pigeon hole you into a religion. 

But I get that you don't care - I held EXACTLY the same view for several years.  All I knew for sure was that BibleGod is bunkum, and religion is nonsense.
 
It is not really my goal to convince you of God.  It was at first but minds and goals do change.  
It takes courage to say that Junebug - I admire that - so +1 for you  :)  I hope you get addicted to that process of change - and maybe even find some curiosity about the origins of love.  ;)  The explanation of love is out there - even right here in past threads on this WWGHA forum.  But no hurry, you have to focus your energies on treatments for now.

Now my only goal is to convince atheists that not everybody that believes in God is a hater and that you fix this with Love not hate. 
Yes, love sure beats the crap out of human sacrifice, ethnic cleansing, crusades, jihad, and even the deep self-loathing demanded by Christianity.

Thanks William for opening your mind and heart to me. ;) I will show you the same respect.
It wasn't my heart, it was my mind  :laugh:
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on July 24, 2013, 12:51:46 AM
Now my only goal is to convince atheists that not everybody that believes in God is a hater and that you fix this with Love not hate. 
That used to be my goal.  I guess once I'm healed enough to be a convincing person again my new goal will be to convince believers that everybody that doesn't believe in god is not a hater...  I think when I was the crazy theist I was pretty convincing that I was not a hater, will I be able to do the same as a non-theist?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Bereft_of_Faith on July 24, 2013, 01:15:30 AM
@Junebug72

I've been following this thread closely.  I think you've made your position and beliefs more clear (at least to me).

I won't quibble with the details, but your belief that love is key is spot on, IMO.  I pretty much agree.

I personally do not believe in a creator.  I also don't believe that our universe is on the surface of a bubble or is a hologram projection. However, the upside is that if there is a creator, a bubble or a hologram, and it is proven to be so, I will accept it without difficulty.  The thing that all three notions have in common is that none of them presume to give people laws, nor require groveling. 

When I first started to participate in atheist forums, I strongly felt that there was 'something else'.  I refused to characterize it, which got me into a bit of overly-warm water with the 'older' members.  I came to understand that I couldn't prove this 'something else', and since whatever it may be, it doesn't require I believe in it, that it would be more logical for me to apply the same standards of proof that I applied to other things.  It was just a slight change in approach.

Be well -BoF

ATT > Religious Discussions / Re: What you consider to be God
« on: May 26, 2010, 12:05:08 AM »
I just have to add... I don't consider anything to be 'God'.

That being said, the whole idea that God must be the Creator has always rubbed me the wrong way.

If I could suddenly be transported into the presence of a being who naturally made the conditions right for the creation of our universe, but who did not actually create all matter and energy, I'd be willing to be sufficiently impressed enough to call that being 'God'.  If it started proclaiming laws of conduct and morality, I'd question its authority to do so.  If it insisted on these laws being obeyed or destruction would follow, I might buckle under to the tyrant, but its authority would be by dint of its threats.

If the being above in fact created matter and energy from nothing by means of magic (which I consider impossible) the parameters of its authority would be exactly as I have described above.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 24, 2013, 07:47:23 AM
Good morning WWGHA,

I'm so glad that I have explained my beliefs in a way you can understand.  It doesn't seem like it would be such a hard thing to do but it has taken me 5 months to get this far.  I'm sure it's 90% on me but I also think the other 10% is on the other end; closed-minds. 

Yes William the heart is really your conscience I know.  It's easier to spell. ;) 

My belief in a Creator is not limited to explaining where Love comes from.  Matter of fact that has very little to do with why I believe in God.  First of all I find it hard to comprehend the amount of luck it would take for our planet to end up with so many forms of complex life from an explosion.  Explosions are messy business.  There is also the lack of other planets like ours.  If it was that easy there should be planets like ours all over.

2nd if humans came from water not dirt then we should be natural swimmers.  Most of us have to "learn" to swim and our bodies have more elements of dirt than water, could be wrong here, I'm sure you'll let me know. :).  There is also the fact that not all creatures evolved into the same thing.  Why remain a fly when you could've evolved into a human or lion, etc.  We have flies because we need flies.  We need all our different life forms.  We all have a "purpose".

Then there is my spirit.  I feel my spirit and it feels eternal unlike this flesh I wear.  It's the "real" me. 

These are my main points of belief in a Creator.  I very well believe that there was an Intelligence involved in our making.  No magic necessary, intelligence yes.  Love yes.  I believe Love and hate comes from us.  We are capable of both because we have freewill.  We are not forced to love it is a choice.

Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 24, 2013, 08:38:47 AM

By-the-by, his avatar is named Riley; mine is named Johnny.

Well I didn't get you confused.  How about BC/AD being a good indicator that Jesus actually existed.  It collaborates the bible story as far as Jesus's existence is concerned.

I do wish you would try again.  As I thought your old post is still stuck on me having a relationship with Jesus.  Please read my explanation of my belief again with a clean slate.  Forget what you thought and reevaluate please. 

Read William's and Lori's.  Their's is accurate. It might help.

Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: naemhni on July 24, 2013, 08:43:23 AM
How about BC/AD being a good indicator that Jesus actually existed.  It collaborates the bible story as far as Jesus's existence is concerned.

How about BBY/ABY being a good indicator that the Battle of Yavin actually occurred?  It collaborates the Star Wars story as far as the occurrence of the battle is concerned.   &)
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 24, 2013, 08:51:42 AM
@Junebug72

I've been following this thread closely.  I think you've made your position and beliefs more clear (at least to me).

I won't quibble with the details, but your belief that love is key is spot on, IMO.  I pretty much agree.

I personally do not believe in a creator.  I also don't believe that our universe is on the surface of a bubble or is a hologram projection. However, the upside is that if there is a creator, a bubble or a hologram, and it is proven to be so, I will accept it without difficulty.  The thing that all three notions have in common is that none of them presume to give people laws, nor require groveling. 

When I first started to participate in atheist forums, I strongly felt that there was 'something else'.  I refused to characterize it, which got me into a bit of overly-warm water with the 'older' members.  I came to understand that I couldn't prove this 'something else', and since whatever it may be, it doesn't require I believe in it, that it would be more logical for me to apply the same standards of proof that I applied to other things.  It was just a slight change in approach.

Be well -BoF

ATT > Religious Discussions / Re: What you consider to be God
« on: May 26, 2010, 12:05:08 AM »
I just have to add... I don't consider anything to be 'God'.

That being said, the whole idea that God must be the Creator has always rubbed me the wrong way.

If I could suddenly be transported into the presence of a being who naturally made the conditions right for the creation of our universe, but who did not actually create all matter and energy, I'd be willing to be sufficiently impressed enough to call that being 'God'.  If it started proclaiming laws of conduct and morality, I'd question its authority to do so.  If it insisted on these laws being obeyed or destruction would follow, I might buckle under to the tyrant, but its authority would be by dint of its threats.

If the being above in fact created matter and energy from nothing by means of magic (which I consider impossible) the parameters of its authority would be exactly as I have described above.


Hi Bereft,

Religion is the work of MAN not God, IMO.  W/o religion there is no Definition of God or what God wants from us, just freedom.  I draw my conclusions from within my own conscience and life experiences. 


How about BC/AD being a good indicator that Jesus actually existed.  It collaborates the bible story as far as Jesus's existence is concerned.

How about BBY/ABY being a good indicator that the Battle of Yavin actually occurred?  It collaborates the Star Wars story as far as the occurrence of the battle is concerned.   &)

Not a good comparison to me.  Every body knows Star Wars is fiction, for now.  ;)
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: naemhni on July 24, 2013, 09:10:48 AM
How about BC/AD being a good indicator that Jesus actually existed.  It collaborates the bible story as far as Jesus's existence is concerned.

How about BBY/ABY being a good indicator that the Battle of Yavin actually occurred?  It collaborates the Star Wars story as far as the occurrence of the battle is concerned.   &)

Not a good comparison to me.  Every body knows Star Wars is fiction, for now.  ;)

Well, yes, which was kind of the point.  And actually, to see some fans going at it, you'd probably be justified in wondering whether they really did know that Star Wars was fiction.  I don't know how involved you are in fandom or anything, but I personally have witnessed, and even participated in, some very intensely heated debates about things that most people would regard as incredibly minuscule minutiae.  One board I used to lurk on, for example, once had a character state that Minbari fighters were on par with Vorlon fighters as regarded both weapons and technology, and an opposing party said that either Minbari fighter weapons technology had to be superior or Vorlon fighter shield technology had to be inferior (or both).  This person then posted a clip from a "Babylon 5" space battle that was probably, literally, less than one second long.  It was certainly less than two seconds.  The result was a debate thread that rivaled our own "Did a man named Jesus really rise from the dead?" thread in both intensity and verbosity.  It was so ferocious that even I got kind of embarrassed about it, and I'm not casual about my own fandom.  (For example, I'm getting my picture taken with William Shatner next weekend.  Don't even think about asking how much that's going to cost.)

Anyway.  :^)  One thing I find interesting about such comparisons is that the history of the Star Wars universe is far, far more detailed and intricate, and it contains significantly fewer points of disagreement, both in canon and in non-canonical literature.  When there is some kind of a continuity error, such as the rebels on Yavin IV taking off from the spaceport wearing perfectly clean helmets, which helmets then suddenly become all dirty and battered when the pilots have arrived at the Death Star, nobody attempts to explain it away or claim that it actually validates the historicity of the narrative, as we so often see with the gospels.  Even serious fans like myself just look at it and say, "Yep, continuity error.  You see them in fiction all the time."
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 24, 2013, 09:37:57 AM
How about BC/AD being a good indicator that Jesus actually existed.  It collaborates the bible story as far as Jesus's existence is concerned.

How about BBY/ABY being a good indicator that the Battle of Yavin actually occurred?  It collaborates the Star Wars story as far as the occurrence of the battle is concerned.   &)

Not a good comparison to me.  Every body knows Star Wars is fiction, for now.  ;)

Well, yes, which was kind of the point.  And actually, to see some fans going at it, you'd probably be justified in wondering whether they really did know that Star Wars was fiction.  I don't know how involved you are in fandom or anything, but I personally have witnessed, and even participated in, some very intensely heated debates about things that most people would regard as incredibly minuscule minutiae.  One board I used to lurk on, for example, once had a character state that Minbari fighters were on par with Vorlon fighters as regarded both weapons and technology, and an opposing party said that either Minbari fighter weapons technology had to be superior or Vorlon fighter shield technology had to be inferior (or both).  This person then posted a clip from a "Babylon 5" space battle that was probably, literally, less than one second long.  It was certainly less than two seconds.  The result was a debate thread that rivaled our own "Did a man named Jesus really rise from the dead?" thread in both intensity and verbosity.  It was so ferocious that even I got kind of embarrassed about it, and I'm not casual about my own fandom.  (For example, I'm getting my picture taken with William Shatner next weekend.  Don't even think about asking how much that's going to cost.)

Anyway.  :^)  One thing I find interesting about such comparisons is that the history of the Star Wars universe is far, far more detailed and intricate, and it contains significantly fewer points of disagreement, both in canon and in non-canonical literature.  When there is some kind of a continuity error, such as the rebels on Yavin IV taking off from the spaceport wearing perfectly clean helmets, which helmets then suddenly become all dirty and battered when the pilots have arrived at the Death Star, nobody attempts to explain it away or claim that it actually validates the historicity of the narrative, as we so often see with the gospels.  Even serious fans like myself just look at it and say, "Yep, continuity error.  You see them in fiction all the time."

Never heard of "fandom" please elaborate.  Is it the act of being a fanatic?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jdawg70 on July 24, 2013, 09:42:54 AM
Well I didn't get you confused.  How about BC/AD being a good indicator that Jesus actually existed.  It collaborates the bible story as far as Jesus's existence is concerned.

I do wish you would try again.  As I thought your old post is still stuck on me having a relationship with Jesus.  Please read my explanation of my belief again with a clean slate.  Forget what you thought and reevaluate please. 
Before going further I think we need to clear this up.  I really don't see where I indicate that I think you have a personal relationship with Jesus in that post.  I mean, I went so far as to Please highlight where I make that indication.  As it stands right now, re-summarizing on my part isn't going to help as I don't see anything to change at the moment.
Quote
Read William's and Lori's.  Their's is accurate. It might help.
I don't see where my summary conflicts with any of theirs.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: naemhni on July 24, 2013, 09:48:37 AM
Never heard of "fandom" please elaborate.  Is it the act of being a fanatic?

Being a fan is part of it, but there's more to it than that, and it's significantly more involved than just saying that you "like Harry Palmer and own all the books and movies" or whatever.

Quote
Fandom (consisting of fan [fanatic] plus the suffix -dom, as in kingdom, freedom, etc.) is a term used to refer to a subculture composed of fans characterized by a feeling of sympathy and camaraderie with others who share a common interest. Fans typically are interested in even minor details of the object(s) of their fandom and spend a significant portion of their time and energy involved with their interest, often as a part of a social network with particular practices (a fandom); this is what differentiates "fannish" (fandom-affiliated) fans from those with only a casual interest.
A fandom can grow up centered around any area of human interest or activity. The subject of fan interest can be narrowly defined, focused on something like an individual celebrity, or more widely defined, encompassing entire hobbies, genres or fashions. While it is now used to apply to groups of people fascinated with any subject, the term has its roots in those with an enthusiastic appreciation for sports. Merriam-Webster's dictionary traces the usage of the term back as far as 1903.
Fandom as a term can also be used in a broad sense to refer to the interconnected social networks of individual fandoms, many of which overlap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fandom
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: William on July 24, 2013, 11:18:28 AM
Good morning WWGHA,
Well I'm more than an hour past pumpkin time in Australia but how could I ignore the chirpy you this morning ;)
(My wife is already asleep so I have to type quietly.)

I'm so glad that I have explained my beliefs in a way you can understand.  It doesn't seem like it would be such a hard thing to do but it has taken me 5 months to get this far.  I'm sure it's 90% on me but I also think the other 10% is on the other end; closed-minds.
Agree - I think there is progress.
 
Yes William the heart is really your conscience I know.  It's easier to spell. ;) 
Agree. Although the definition of "conscience" is another debate  ;)


My belief in a Creator is not limited to explaining where Love comes from.  Matter of fact that has very little to do with why I believe in God.  First of all I find it hard to comprehend the amount of luck it would take for our planet to end up with so many forms of complex life from an explosion.  Explosions are messy business.  There is also the lack of other planets like ours.  If it was that easy there should be planets like ours all over.
This is drifting a long way from the original topic.  If I may ... it might help to look at it the opposite way.  There are frogs that thrive in the Namibian desert - and you know frogs need coolth and water.  But these frogs have adapted to the desert.  If they could speak they would also say how lucky they are to be living in a desert :laugh: 

(http://www.oddycentral.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/0841.jpeg)

All other frogs on the planet would instantly croak in disagreement - and die within minutes or hours of being placed in that same environment.

You see the reason we think our planet is lucky and perfect is because we have adapted to it.  We evolve into our environment as it changes. Even rolling back geological time - we could not have breathed on this very planet. The answers are more complex than our own snapshot in time.  There is actually a huge latitude in the parameters for life - the high pressure hot sulphuric vents at the bottom of the ocean for example - covered in amazing life forms but where you or I would die faster than a blink. 

And there are more and more planets being discovered that are close enough to the conditions on our planet to support life.  Please keep your mind open on this one  :)

2nd if humans came from water not dirt then we should be natural swimmers.  Most of us have to "learn" to swim and our bodies have more elements of dirt than water, could be wrong here, I'm sure you'll let me know. :). 
From the perspective of our lifetimes this logic might appeal.  But we are talking about millions and millions of generations of change and adaptation to new environments. Our situation now doesn't need us to swim to survive - so the anatomical structures that served our ancestors well for swimming have evolved to structures that serve us well for climbing trees and walking.
 
Whales are a marvellous example of where land animals evolved back into aquatic animals. Google that - you will be amazed I guarantee :)

There is also the fact that not all creatures evolved into the same thing.  Why remain a fly when you could've evolved into a human or lion, etc.  We have flies because we need flies.  We need all our different life forms.  We all have a "purpose".
I can see this is a very difficult issue to deal with if one holds that there is a "Creator" with a plan or purpose.  And it boils down to the MAIN problem theists have with evolution - why they reject the science and bury their heads in the sand.  Theists cannot bring themselves to accept that evolution has no direction, no purpose, it's merely a response to opportunity by some individuals who happen to have inherited beneficial mutations.

Evolution doesn't work on all individuals simultaneously. It works through rare individuals with accidental mutations that open up opportunities for that individual alone, and eventually its offspring.  It leads to new populations that separate from the old - leaving the old behind, still alive in their original environment and set of opportunities.

That is why there are still single celled creatures and monkeys to whom we are related through evolution. But even then the relationships are a bit deceptive, because those same amoebas and monkeys we see today have also had time to diverge and evolve in different directions from our common ancestor.  The original common ancestors are long gone - except in the fossil record where they show up abundantly - demonstrating how forms changed and diverged.

We really should discuss this further in another topic in another forum - it's so totally removed from the Bible is a disgrace topic.  Meanwhile here is the tree of life pic to wet your appetite for the discussion and leaning ahead of you:

(http://www.lucasbrouwers.nl/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Evo_large.gif)


Then there is my spirit.  I feel my spirit and it feels eternal unlike this flesh I wear.  It's the "real" me. 
Yep, I get that.  I wake up in the morning and the real me re-enters my consciousness.  I can't wash it of my mistakes or my learnings - it seems eternal - while I'm alive and awake that is.  The discussion about what happens to me (my spirit if you like) has been done many times on WWGHA. In the end it boils down to what we know about death (a lot) and what we know about spirit (absolutely nothing).  You are free to believe whatever you like about this, but you should take some notice of the rational view that when we die it all goes quiet - like falling asleep and never waking up. It doesn't hurt a bit.  And when we look at how theists cling desperately to this life, seeking treatments for life-threatening illness, defending themselves against attack, fighting to stave off death ... we can conclude from their behaviour that they also know deep down that this life is all we have.

If I wake up after death in another life I'll be pleasantly surprised, and enjoy whatever it has to offer.  But meanwhile I refuse to live my life as if some clergy know more about the next life than I do, and for that claim to "knowledge" of the unknowable they get to live an easier life here on this earth.  We are all in the dark on this.  There is no evidence of what comes after death, but a very good indication when I look at the worms in my compost heap  ;D 

I say live your life with honesty and integrity - a life filled with love and enjoyment - and fight a bit against evil, especially those who try to suck us into religion for their own gain in this life.

These are my main points of belief in a Creator.  I very well believe that there was an Intelligence involved in our making.  No magic necessary, intelligence yes.  Love yes.  I believe Love and hate comes from us.  We are capable of both because we have freewill.  We are not forced to love it is a choice.
On the belt buckles of Hitler's soldiers there was an inscription: "Gott mit uns"  Did the German soldiers ordered to muster Jews into the death camps have any real choice. No.  An Islamic suicide bomber presses the detonation button thinking thoughts put there by his trainers - he also has no real choice either.
Religion can and does override love by dulling our capacity to make natural choices.  I happen to agree with you that expression of our natural love is indeed a choice - a choice to do what already feels right - but only when free from the mind-shackling oppression of religious thought.

Junebug, I think your belief in a deity Creator is quite harmless and won't prevent you from living a life of love and fulfilment. You don't need to make the complete transition to atheism to know the value of this life for yourself right now - I think you are there already.  But expect to take some heat for the tolerance you afford some of theistic ideas (e.g. intelligent design) that full-blown theists deploy to keep a choke-hold over the minds of people weakened by brainwashing.  Theists, the fundamentally religious ones, are the natural adversary of the atheist.  Atheists are justified to be cranky about being pushed around by religious values in politics and daily life, falsely accused of being immoral, and condemned to (or at least threatened with) hell by theists - all for not believing and submitting to fairy tale gods  &)

You can live on the fringes of the main debate, out of the conflict zone, but be cautious of inadvertently siding with the enemies of free thought  ;)
For myself I will carry on seeking the knowledge. Being curious. Never stop questioning  :)
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Traveler on July 24, 2013, 11:52:25 AM
FYI - junebug is having cancer surgery today from what she has said in another thread - you might not hear from her for a bit

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,24999.msg563241.html#msg563241

She posted the next day (stated in her reply right after yours), who gets on the internet right after they have major surgery? I know: those who don't have surgery and just say they do.

-Nam

Dammit Nam ... I meant to smite you and hit the applause button instead.  >:( A lumpectomy is day surgery. I'd have been online too. Grow a heart and a little common sense. You are wrong.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Traveler on July 24, 2013, 12:03:11 PM
...
2nd if humans came from water not dirt then we should be natural swimmers.  Most of us have to "learn" to swim...

Although the others have explained evolution much better, as it happens, its my understanding that if you put an infant into water it will do just fine, in fact much better than an older child. But if we wait until we're older, then we have to unlearn a lot of things before we can easily learn how to swim.

Here's one site I found very quickly ...

http://www.splashnswim.co.uk/baby_swimming_benefits.htm
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: William on July 24, 2013, 12:07:06 PM
I meant to smite you and hit the applause button instead.
;D For one little minute I thought there had been an outbreak of "Love" tactics in the karma system ;D
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Traveler on July 24, 2013, 02:39:00 PM
I meant to smite you and hit the applause button instead.
;D For one little minute I thought there had been an outbreak of "Love" tactics in the karma system ;D

LOL! I could try that.  ;D

I was just irritated that I hit the wrong button when he'd called a fellow breast cancer survivor a liar. I've seen a lot of cancer stories, and there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that she is honestly representing her story. To say she isn't is rude.

Anyway, ok, let me try that. Nam, I feel that you're in need of a hug. So, here's a virtual hug for you. Hm, too bad we don't have a hug emoticon. I'm sort of an emoticon junkie. Maybe its the artist in me ... a picture is worth a thousand words and all that.  ;D

And back on topic ... wasn't there a really great post recently that very clearly and simply explained how evolution actually works? Even to someone who "gets it," I recall it being very informative. Does anyone remember where that might be?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jdawg70 on July 24, 2013, 03:38:43 PM
And back on topic ... wasn't there a really great post recently that very clearly and simply explained how evolution actually works? Even to someone who "gets it," I recall it being very informative. Does anyone remember where that might be?
So...about 'on topic'...

I'm wondering if we've started to wander too far off the path of what Junebug wanted from this topic, or wants from this thread.  I've been focusing my conversation points (more or less) on her beliefs in relation to the bible, which I think was in line with the OP.  It's since become something more of a 'trying to understand Junebug's beliefs' in a more general sense, and some of the conversation is starting to deviate to conversations about her beliefs that are irrespective of the bible being a disgrace to god.  I think it's appropriate to ask Junebug if this is how she wants the thread to continue.

Junebug, is the current conversation (or conversations) in this thread still appropriate for you?  Is it time to fork some of this into new threads of discussion?

Your OP; your call Junebug.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on July 24, 2013, 10:06:45 PM
FYI - junebug is having cancer surgery today from what she has said in another thread - you might not hear from her for a bit

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,24999.msg563241.html#msg563241

She posted the next day (stated in her reply right after yours), who gets on the internet right after they have major surgery? I know: those who don't have surgery and just say they do.

-Nam

Steady, nam... you're a bit too ready with your implications. You may owe junebug an apology.

GB mod


If I didn't mean what I said, I wouldn't say it. So, she had surgery of the day, and was online that day. So, besides the "day" mix up, I would have responded the same way.

I don't take things back that I mean. Look for a politician for that. Rand Paul, for example...oh, wait, he didn't apologize either, he just made an excuse. Well, pick another guy.

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on July 24, 2013, 10:08:18 PM
She posted the next day (stated in her reply right after yours), who gets on the internet right after they have major surgery? I know: those who don't have surgery and just say they do.
Who would get on the internet right after that?  I would.  It's something you can do while prone, without taxing yourself too heavily.

Good for you.

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Mrjason on July 25, 2013, 04:52:59 AM
Junebug, how do you feel about other religious texts? Do you think all human attempts to interpret god are a disgrace?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 25, 2013, 07:11:09 AM
Dang computer, I'm sorry guys I had a response prepared and for some reason my computer just erased every bit.  Too aggravated to redo right now. 

JB
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 25, 2013, 07:25:08 AM

If I didn't mean what I said, I wouldn't say it. So, she had surgery of the day, and was online that day. So, besides the "day" mix up, I would have responded the same way.

I don't take things back that I mean. Look for a politician for that. Rand Paul, for example...oh, wait, he didn't apologize either, he just made an excuse. Well, pick another guy.

-Nam

You might have meant what you said but what people are trying to tell you is you were wrong.  It's called open mouth insert foot. 

Did you gain or lose respect for Rand Paul because of the way he dealt with his mistake?  I think you can be a better man than that.

I had surgery at 5 pm on Thursday.  I left the hospital at 7:30 pm same day.  I was online Friday morning.  I have a small incision about 2.5" on my breast and another one 3" under my arm.  They didn't crack open my chest.  I am able to use my arm but under DR orders not to lift above 90 degrees.  The internet or TV is very appropriate.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on July 25, 2013, 08:10:16 AM
Dang computer, I'm sorry guys I had a response prepared and for some reason my computer just erased every bit.  Too aggravated to redo right now. 

JB

That happens to me all the damn time. I will never get used to the track pad/touch pad thingie and god/whoever forbid I accidentally hit the return key...  But I digress.  Sorry.     Squirrel.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on July 25, 2013, 08:13:35 AM

They didn't crack open my chest.

If they cracked open my chest to remove a lump I would be really pissed.  Oops I digress again.  It's going to be one of those days.
Squirrel.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 25, 2013, 08:28:08 AM
Let's try this again.

Jdawg,

I am very disappointed that my latest summation did not change one aspect of your understanding of my beliefs, spiritual not religious.  In that post you are confused I tried to address that confusion in that summary. 

Thanks for concern about the OP but it's OK.  I appreciated William's answers to the questions I posed about evolution.

Traveler,

I have read Screwtape's post in the Information Zone, I think it's called, at the top of the board.  Those were questions I have about it.  If you don't ask you don't learn, right?    ...and Thanks ;)

William,

It is your response that is the hardest to think about rewriting.  I had some good stuff.  Oh well, it's spilled milk now.  lol :laugh:

The main point of it was I have knowledge of my spirit.  I know of it's existence and function.  To me it is the breath of life and incapable of dying because it has no physical limitations. 

Perhaps if science quit rejecting it we would learn more??? 

Thanks for calling me harmless.  I'm very proud that I have given this impression of my beliefs. :-* :-*, since you like emoticon's so much.

MrJason,

I was working on yours when the spasm happened.

I think anyone that claims knowledge they couldn't possibly have is a disgrace to God.  I am not that comfortable with this question.  I would have to go back and research other religious text.  My memory is a bit foggy.  Off the top of my head yes I believe it mostly is.  They either assign terrible attributes or give unbelievable descriptions.  If we can not all agree that it is good I believe it to be wrong. 

As far as individual humans I can't answer that.  Of course I do not think I have disgraced God, but I have and I try to acknowledge this and learn from it.  Not just keep on and on and on.... doing it.

Tis not the same but twill do. :-\

Lori,

Good morning.  Good to read your wise cracks this morning.  You made me laugh.  It is a good gift.  Thanks...

Yea it's hard to piss me off but that did.  Urgh
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jdawg70 on July 25, 2013, 11:40:30 AM
Let's try this again.

Jdawg,

I am very disappointed that my latest summation did not change one aspect of your understanding of my beliefs, spiritual not religious.  In that post you are confused I tried to address that confusion in that summary. 
"Spiritual not religious" doesn't really have anything to do with how I perceive/understand your beliefs.  I don't really allude to 'spirituality' or 'religion' at any point in time, or at least I didn't intend to.  One of my major concerns right now is that you're still under the impression that I think you have a personal relationship with Jesus.  That, frankly, is confusing me.  I'm seriously questioning my ability to write and communicate at this point; I honestly don't see where you're getting that.  I hate to be "that guy", but could you (or anyone else interested) specifically point out what it is about my summary that implies that?

It's certainly possible that I'm simply going to be unable to either a) fully understand your beliefs (or understand them sufficiently for productive communication involving them) or b) articulate my understanding of your beliefs properly.  I apologize for that.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on July 25, 2013, 06:10:55 PM

If I didn't mean what I said, I wouldn't say it. So, she had surgery of the day, and was online that day. So, besides the "day" mix up, I would have responded the same way.

I don't take things back that I mean. Look for a politician for that. Rand Paul, for example...oh, wait, he didn't apologize either, he just made an excuse. Well, pick another guy.

-Nam

You might have meant what you said but what people are trying to tell you is you were wrong.  It's called open mouth insert foot. 

Did you gain or lose respect for Rand Paul because of the way he dealt with his mistake?  I think you can be a better man than that.

I had surgery at 5 pm on Thursday.  I left the hospital at 7:30 pm same day.  I was online Friday morning.  I have a small incision about 2.5" on my breast and another one 3" under my arm.  They didn't crack open my chest.  I am able to use my arm but under DR orders not to lift above 90 degrees.  The internet or TV is very appropriate.

I think it's best if I ignore you. You remind me too much of GamerGirl. I dislike her, and I dislike you. Everything you say sounds to me like total and complete nonsense. I want to smite every post you make, and make comments that will just be so cruel, I will do out some of my past cruel comments.

Though I am willing to risk it just to see those "future" comments, I think it's best I do not.

So have fun conning everyone else here with your sappy stories, I shall not partake. It should be noted: in conversation (unless you respond to a topic of mine and I have no choice in the matter) but since smiting isn't conversing with you; that's free game.

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 26, 2013, 04:52:14 AM

If I didn't mean what I said, I wouldn't say it. So, she had surgery of the day, and was online that day. So, besides the "day" mix up, I would have responded the same way.

I don't take things back that I mean. Look for a politician for that. Rand Paul, for example...oh, wait, he didn't apologize either, he just made an excuse. Well, pick another guy.

-Nam


You might have meant what you said but what people are trying to tell you is you were wrong.  It's called open mouth insert foot. 

Did you gain or lose respect for Rand Paul because of the way he dealt with his mistake?  I think you can be a better man than that.

I had surgery at 5 pm on Thursday.  I left the hospital at 7:30 pm same day.  I was online Friday morning.  I have a small incision about 2.5" on my breast and another one 3" under my arm.  They didn't crack open my chest.  I am able to use my arm but under DR orders not to lift above 90 degrees.  The internet or TV is very appropriate.

I think it's best if I ignore you. You remind me too much of GamerGirl. I dislike her, and I dislike you. Everything you say sounds to me like total and complete nonsense. I want to smite every post you make, and make comments that will just be so cruel, I will do out some of my past cruel comments.

Though I am willing to risk it just to see those "future" comments, I think it's best I do not.

So have fun conning everyone else here with your sappy stories, I shall not partake. It should be noted: in conversation (unless you respond to a topic of mine and I have no choice in the matter) but since smiting isn't conversing with you; that's free game.

-Nam

OK.  That has been obvious since your first reply to me.

Reminds me of Anfauglir.

I don't care what you believe...MEAN PEOPLE SUCK  :o

Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Add Homonym on July 26, 2013, 05:33:18 AM
It's certainly possible that I'm simply going to be unable to either a) fully understand your beliefs (or understand them sufficiently for productive communication involving them) or b) articulate my understanding of your beliefs properly.  I apologize for that.

Junebug is like a hippy, but without the homeopathy, and astrology. Probably with reincarnation and aromatherapy.

I live in one of the hippy-dropout centres of Australia, and can recognize the signs.

You can see the pine roof in Junebug's house, which means she lives in Portland.

EDIT: only her time zone is Iowa/Winnipeg.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on July 26, 2013, 08:01:26 AM

So have fun conning everyone else here with your sappy stories, I shall not partake. It should be noted: in conversation (unless you respond to a topic of mine and I have no choice in the matter) but since smiting isn't conversing with you; that's free game.

-Nam

Buh bye.  :P
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: screwtape on July 26, 2013, 08:52:04 AM

MEAN PEOPLE SUCK

corrected
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jdawg70 on July 26, 2013, 09:21:48 AM
Junebug is like a hippy, but without the homeopathy, and astrology. Probably with reincarnation and aromatherapy.

I live in one of the hippy-dropout centres of Australia, and can recognize the signs.

You can see the pine roof in Junebug's house, which means she lives in Portland.
So...I get that vibe too.  And to your point, there are a wide variety of hippy-types, and they have a wide variety of beliefs.  Some have been into homeopathy; others not.  Some subscribe to a pantheistic viewpoint; others an animistic viewpoint; others still deist; some atheists.  Some treat the bible with some degree of reverence; others, just another book.

What I'm trying to get out of Junebug is a little more specificity than just the high-level aspects of her beliefs.  I had some follow up questions to my summary that, so far as I can tell, are still valid questions.  I think those questions warrant being addressed or, at least, having an explanation for why those questions are inapplicable.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Cycle4Fun on July 26, 2013, 11:08:48 AM
My belief in a Creator is not limited to explaining where Love comes from.  Matter of fact that has very little to do with why I believe in God.  First of all I find it hard to comprehend the amount of luck it would take for our planet to end up with so many forms of complex life from an explosion.  Explosions are messy business.  There is also the lack of other planets like ours.  If it was that easy there should be planets like ours all over.

I was reading through the thread and it wasn't until this post and another on the same page that I began to understand your belief in a deity. 

Junebug, you seem to believe in a deist type god.  A morally good god who set things rolling and has been hands off ever since.  If that's different from what you actually believe, we'll need more clarification!

The only reason I see you've given for believing in god is the design you see in the universe.  You've acknowledged and understood the flaws in revealed religions such as Christianity.  That's good!  You and many atheists have much common ground.  Allow me to explain why I don't believe in a deist type god, or any god for that matter. 

In doing so, I'll ignore the theory of evolution (how life came to be the way it is today), abiogenesis (hypothesis on how life began), and non-classical physics.  Non of it matters.  All that we have to agree on is this:

The best way to determine what is true is to use a combination of logic and our senses and observations.  When we find something we think is true, it should be repeated to verify the earlier observation.  Preferably by someone else to ensure what we think is not a figment of our imagination.  If you don't agree with that statement we have no common ground.  and I would like to know why you disagree.

Why don't I believe in a god?  It's so simple, often those I've encountered who ask me this question have trouble wrapping their head around it.  I don't believe in a god or creator of the universe because there is no evidence or reason to think one exists!  There is nothing more to it.  I use the same logic monotheists use to dismiss all of the thousands of other gods man has believed in.  I just go one further.

You, with a deist type belief say, "I see the universe and I don't know how it came to be, therefore creator."  I say, "I see the universe and I don't know how it came to be."

You've assigned a cause to the universe when you really don't know.  Human's have been doing it for thousands of years.  Why does the Sun come up?  Ra!  What is lightning?  Zues!  Where the theist says, "I don't know, therefore my god/s."  Atheists say, "i don't know."

Else it's turtles all the way down!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down)

Your "spirit" is no different.  What you call your spirit, I call the physical brain.  There is no demonstrable difference.  So why believe otherwise?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 26, 2013, 02:57:00 PM
It's certainly possible that I'm simply going to be unable to either a) fully understand your beliefs (or understand them sufficiently for productive communication involving them) or b) articulate my understanding of your beliefs properly.  I apologize for that.

Junebug is like a hippy, but without the homeopathy, and astrology. Probably with reincarnation and aromatherapy.

I live in one of the hippy-dropout centres of Australia, and can recognize the signs.

You can see the pine roof in Junebug's house, which means she lives in Portland.

EDIT: only her time zone is Iowa/Winnipeg.

I'm a southern bell.  Your reply is funny though. :laugh:  Hippy is a bit of a stretch when describing me.  If you could see the walls you would see antique farming equipment and Native American art.  I have a pool shark tattoo.  In fact, I have 6 and none of them are a rainbow. ;) 

North Carolina girl.

Thanks for the laugh,

JB
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 26, 2013, 03:05:54 PM

What I'm trying to get out of Junebug is a little more specificity than just the high-level aspects of her beliefs.  I had some follow up questions to my summary that, so far as I can tell, are still valid questions.  I think those questions warrant being addressed or, at least, having an explanation for why those questions are inapplicable.

One day I will learn how to insert quotes from different pages.  I can only add what is on the page with the reply box. 

Last thing I want to do here is leave an unanswered question out there.  I'm sure I addressed your questions.  I'm not going back through all these pages to prove it though.  So I will do it again.  No problem.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: One Above All on July 26, 2013, 03:07:46 PM
One day I will learn how to insert quotes from different pages.  I can only add what is on the page with the reply box. 

Press the "quote" button on the upper right corner of the post and cut/paste what appears in the "Quick-Reply" box to wherever you want.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 26, 2013, 03:33:47 PM
I think part of the problem is you don't understand the relationship I have with Jesus; I don't.  I am not a Christian, a fact that I have repeatedly stated.  I am open minded about the whole story.  For me I have chosen to live a life of peace and love.  I have found inspiration for that journey in the teachings of Jesus, Gandhi, Martin Luther King and many other non violent demonstrators.

Yes I can only use the bible for a source for Jesus.  It is also the source of other Jewish history.  It is a totally different read if you read it not believing it is divine/holy.

I will try to be more patient with you as you try to understand me.  If this doesn't help I will try and try until you get me. 

I've got to go for now. Take care.  Have a good evening.
Thank you for being patient.

I'm going to try to summarize how I understand some of your beliefs.  I think I'm still a little murky, so I'm bound to make some errors here so forgive that.

You take the bible to be an old book that has descriptions that are accurate (perhaps not precise), though it is neither a text of the quality of a history book (contains fantastical stories and untrue elements and events) nor a divinely written or inspired work.  You believe that a divine entity 'Jesus' (not really sure about this one; I'm basing this off of your claims of having a current, active relationship with this entity) is, in some way, referenced in this book (either as The Messiah as described, as a character based upon the real 'Jesus' entity, or some other means).  The information that you have on Jesus' character (be it concrete information or some 'intuitive' sense of knowing) is not informed by the bible, but rather informed through your life experiences as a whole.

The 'god' entity described in the bible is not related to the actual 'god' entity, or if so, it is a tangential relation at best (both biblegod and the 'god' you refer to as creators of the world for example).

Questions at this point:
Is there any way you can more specifically how it is you 'know', 'think', or 'intuit' this information you have regarding Jesus and/or god?  A general descriptor of 'life experience' is difficult to simply accept - we all have life experiences, and we all have come to very different bits of mutually-exclusive information.


The world (is it fair to simply say 'reality' instead of 'the world'?) appears to be designed by some intelligent means, and this intelligent means necessarily stems from some sentience.  This is enough to suggest to you that the best, most parsimonious explanation is that some intelligent sentience created, through undiscovered or undiscoverable means, instantiated the world and continues to act in it but inside the will of other sentient entities.  This 'interaction' manifests itself as emotional and/or intuitive senses but not in some manner like direct interaction with the physical 'essence' (matter, energy, space, time, etc.).


Questions at this point:
I think the obvious question is - surely by whatever criteria you deem as sufficient to claim the world/reality designed apply to the sentience proposed.  In essence the answer simply rewords the question - replace 'world' or 'reality' with 'god' but nothing else of value is accomplished.

Further, I have a pretty big gap in understanding still as to how Jesus and god relate.  Could you explain that?  Start at a 'high-level' if you like and we can drill down into more detail if I'm still not quite understanding you.


It plainly says right above your first paragraph what my source of Jesus is.  I have given you my summary of the bible.  I definitely remember responding to this post now

answer to the last question=No because I have questions about the same thing. I do not know I was not there. 

That first question is so far off from my beliefs that I can not answer it.  Although I did respond to it.  The more I read this the more confused I get.  It's like reading while in the oaken bucket at Carowinds, amusement park..  It just goes round and round and round.  It is like you start to get there and then take a sharp left.   So I have to say no this isn't right. 

I am not going to elaborate to avoid confusing you further.  You must get this fixation you have with Jesus and my beliefs out of your head.  For the sake of helping you understand let's just forget I even know who Jesus is, OK?

The red portion is close.

Thanks OAA you rock n roll!!!
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: screwtape on July 26, 2013, 03:45:16 PM
I'm a southern bell.

You and Lindsey Graham both.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jdawg70 on July 26, 2013, 04:05:45 PM
I guess to just simplify matters I will copy/paste the post I have been actually referring to.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jdawg, I clearly told you I do not have a relationship with Jesus.  So why turn around and say that I do? 
Apologies - I misread/misunderstood what you had wrote.  I read it as you saying that I don't understand the relationship you have with Jesus, and that you don't necessarily understand your relationship with him either (it's a viewpoint I've seen a number of times - claims of a personal relationship with Jesus but of a kind that cannot be articulated in any sort of way).
Quote
1st question-We all have life experiences but not the same ones.  Mine has been very different from yours and so on and so on. I know you must be aware of this.
I'm not sure this addresses the meat of my question - yes, we do have very different experiences.  The question is why there are so many disparate, mutually exclusive viewpoints and understandings on a subject like 'the existence of an person called Jesus' and the nature of that entity therein (i.e. divinity, salvation, simple preacher, etc.).  That's why I'm saying that simply saying "my life experiences have informed upon me that Jesus of Nazareth existed and had the following qualities" is insufficient to understand how it is you came to believe that Jesus did indeed exist.
Quote
When you read the bible without belief in it's divinity/holiness it is a different read.
Yup.
Quote
Why would you say that intelligence stems from sentience?  I would think it the other way around.  Sentience stems from intelligence. 
I suspect that neither of us will get very far if we start trying to define intelligence in a specific way, so I'll go ahead and just concede this.  With the assumption that sentience stems from intelligence, what leads you to leap that the intelligence that you feel is apparent in the creation of reality has sentient characteristics (i.e. loving, willfulness, etc.)?
Quote
2nd question-I believe Jesus was close to God.  The authors of his story are human and their interpretation may be exaggerated.  For instance, the virgin birth, walking on water, healing, rising from the dead and turning water into wine.  See I am familiar with human nature and I don't know, when I read the bible with this in mind it stands out to me. 

Jesus is so much greater as a man than a demi-god. 
So when you say "Jesus was close to god", I take it to mean that Jesus was more 'in tuned' to god, or has a better understanding of god's ways more than others?  Or something like that at least...if you could give more clarity here I think it would help...

I'm going to try a re-summary of how I understand your views and beliefs again.  Same caveats apply from last time:

You take the bible to be an old book that has some historical descriptions that are accurate (perhaps not precise), though it is neither a text of the quality of a history book (contains fantastical stories and untrue elements and events) nor a divinely written or inspired work.  You believe that man named 'Jesus' is, in some way, referenced in this book, though for the most part is a caricature of the actual 'Jesus'.  The information that you have on Jesus' character (be it concrete information or some 'intuitive' sense of knowing) is not informed by the bible, but rather informed through your life experiences as a whole.

The man Jesus is an ideal to aspire towards.  Actions and words attributed to him in the bible may or may not be accurate, but again, the truth of his existence and aspects of his general character are things that you've learned of through life experiences as a whole.

The 'god' entity described in the bible is not related to the actual 'god' entity, or if so, it is a tangential relation at best (both biblegod and the 'god' you refer to as creators of the world for example).

The world (is it fair to simply say 'reality' instead of 'the world'?) appears to be designed by some intelligent means.  This is enough to suggest to you that the best, most parsimonious explanation is that some intelligent sentience created, through undiscovered or undiscoverable means, instantiated the world and continues to act in it but inside the will of other sentient entities.  This 'interaction' manifests itself as emotional and/or intuitive senses but not in some manner like direct interaction with the physical 'essence' (matter, energy, space, time, etc.).


Questions:
I'm still unclear as to how you've derived some aspects of Jesus' character or teachings.  If none of it is informed from the bible (and maybe some of it is), where do you get your ideas that Jesus is an exemplary example of a human to strive to be like?  Where do you get your idea that Jesus is, in some way, close to god?

Could you explain how you get from 'reality looks to be designed by an intelligence' to 'the intelligence responsible for designing reality has sentience'?  The gap there is a bit wide for me right now.  Does sentience necessarily stem from intelligence?

Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 26, 2013, 04:09:39 PM
I'm a southern bell.

You and Lindsey Graham both.

I am sure there are politicians from your region too.  What's your point?  I am not her.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: One Above All on July 26, 2013, 04:11:15 PM
Thanks OAA you rock n roll!!!

I'm well aware. ;)
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 26, 2013, 04:16:53 PM
I guess to just simplify matters I will copy/paste the post I have been actually referring to.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jdawg, I clearly told you I do not have a relationship with Jesus.  So why turn around and say that I do? 
Apologies - I misread/misunderstood what you had wrote.  I read it as you saying that I don't understand the relationship you have with Jesus, and that you don't necessarily understand your relationship with him either (it's a viewpoint I've seen a number of times - claims of a personal relationship with Jesus but of a kind that cannot be articulated in any sort of way).
Quote
1st question-We all have life experiences but not the same ones.  Mine has been very different from yours and so on and so on. I know you must be aware of this.
I'm not sure this addresses the meat of my question - yes, we do have very different experiences.  The question is why there are so many disparate, mutually exclusive viewpoints and understandings on a subject like 'the existence of an person called Jesus' and the nature of that entity therein (i.e. divinity, salvation, simple preacher, etc.).  That's why I'm saying that simply saying "my life experiences have informed upon me that Jesus of Nazareth existed and had the following qualities" is insufficient to understand how it is you came to believe that Jesus did indeed exist.
Quote
When you read the bible without belief in it's divinity/holiness it is a different read.
Yup.
Quote
Why would you say that intelligence stems from sentience?  I would think it the other way around.  Sentience stems from intelligence. 
I suspect that neither of us will get very far if we start trying to define intelligence in a specific way, so I'll go ahead and just concede this.  With the assumption that sentience stems from intelligence, what leads you to leap that the intelligence that you feel is apparent in the creation of reality has sentient characteristics (i.e. loving, willfulness, etc.)?
Quote
2nd question-I believe Jesus was close to God.  The authors of his story are human and their interpretation may be exaggerated.  For instance, the virgin birth, walking on water, healing, rising from the dead and turning water into wine.  See I am familiar with human nature and I don't know, when I read the bible with this in mind it stands out to me. 

Jesus is so much greater as a man than a demi-god. 
So when you say "Jesus was close to god", I take it to mean that Jesus was more 'in tuned' to god, or has a better understanding of god's ways more than others?  Or something like that at least...if you could give more clarity here I think it would help...

I'm going to try a re-summary of how I understand your views and beliefs again.  Same caveats apply from last time:

You take the bible to be an old book that has some historical descriptions that are accurate (perhaps not precise), though it is neither a text of the quality of a history book (contains fantastical stories and untrue elements and events) nor a divinely written or inspired work.  You believe that man named 'Jesus' is, in some way, referenced in this book, though for the most part is a caricature of the actual 'Jesus'.  The information that you have on Jesus' character (be it concrete information or some 'intuitive' sense of knowing) is not informed by the bible, but rather informed through your life experiences as a whole.

The man Jesus is an ideal to aspire towards.  Actions and words attributed to him in the bible may or may not be accurate, but again, the truth of his existence and aspects of his general character are things that you've learned of through life experiences as a whole.

The 'god' entity described in the bible is not related to the actual 'god' entity, or if so, it is a tangential relation at best (both biblegod and the 'god' you refer to as creators of the world for example).

The world (is it fair to simply say 'reality' instead of 'the world'?) appears to be designed by some intelligent means.  This is enough to suggest to you that the best, most parsimonious explanation is that some intelligent sentience created, through undiscovered or undiscoverable means, instantiated the world and continues to act in it but inside the will of other sentient entities.  This 'interaction' manifests itself as emotional and/or intuitive senses but not in some manner like direct interaction with the physical 'essence' (matter, energy, space, time, etc.).


Questions:
I'm still unclear as to how you've derived some aspects of Jesus' character or teachings.  If none of it is informed from the bible (and maybe some of it is), where do you get your ideas that Jesus is an exemplary example of a human to strive to be like?  Where do you get your idea that Jesus is, in some way, close to god?

Could you explain how you get from 'reality looks to be designed by an intelligence' to 'the intelligence responsible for designing reality has sentience'?  The gap there is a bit wide for me right now.  Does sentience necessarily stem from intelligence?

:blank:
Are you really going to make me read this again?  To me it's much like the others.  I try to keep things short and sweet.  As simple as I can.  This looks like a manifesto of some kind.  I have already responded to this once.  It is cruel and unusual punishment to make me go through this again. Please???

 :o You're wearing me out!!!  I won't be surprised if I get moderated for re-posting it.

Thanks OAA you rock n roll!!!

I'm well aware. ;)

I know. lol :laugh:
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Traveler on July 26, 2013, 04:19:29 PM
...North Carolina girl...

I assume you mean birth, not now? If now, I'm going to be in North Carolina this fall. It'd be cool to put face to a name. :)

I only have one tattoo, but I love native american artwork! As for hippies, I consider it a compliment. Although I'm not quite a hippy (not personally into promiscuity, drugs, and nudity), I identify with the peace and love part of it. And I grew up in the 60s and 70s, so I remember bell bottoms and Woodstock and psychedelic music.  ;D
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 26, 2013, 04:21:23 PM
JDawg,

Will you please just come up with something new already.  A summary of my summary would be great.  Let's move forward.  If you want to know about Jesus ask the christians.  I am not your girl. 
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 26, 2013, 04:31:26 PM
...North Carolina girl...

I assume you mean birth, not now? If now, I'm going to be in North Carolina this fall. It'd be cool to put face to a name. :)

I only have one tattoo, but I love native american artwork! As for hippies, I consider it a compliment. Although I'm not quite a hippy (not personally into promiscuity, drugs, and nudity), I identify with the peace and love part of it. And I grew up in the 60s and 70s, so I remember bell bottoms and Woodstock and psychedelic music.  ;D

Yea there's a little hippie in me too, damn that was funny, lol.  I am guilty of a little promiscuity but not anymore.  Never been topless in public never will.  I love my bell bottoms and I get into to all kinds of music.  So I am not offended by the remark at all. I thought it was funny but I am not a hippie. 

It's a hell of a lot closer than christian though.  ;)
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on July 26, 2013, 06:50:28 PM

So have fun conning everyone else here with your sappy stories, I shall not partake. It should be noted: in conversation (unless you respond to a topic of mine and I have no choice in the matter) but since smiting isn't conversing with you; that's free game.

-Nam

Buh bye.  :P

What? It's to her only.

I don't get the humor of your post.

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on July 26, 2013, 08:10:59 PM

So have fun conning everyone else here with your sappy stories, I shall not partake. It should be noted: in conversation (unless you respond to a topic of mine and I have no choice in the matter) but since smiting isn't conversing with you; that's free game.

-Nam

Buh bye.  :P

What? It's to her only.

I don't get the humor of your post.

-Nam

Buh Bye to you in this thread.
Duh, Helen Hunt as the flight attendant.
I like you, Nam but I like you better when you're not in this thread.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: screwtape on July 26, 2013, 11:39:11 PM
I am sure there are politicians from your region too.  What's your point?  I am not her.

I was making fun of Lindsey Graham.  He's the "prettiest debutante at the Daughters of the Confederacy Ball".[1]

http://www.lgraham.senate.gov/public/


 1. http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-mentally-ill-appear-at-gun-hearing.html (http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-mentally-ill-appear-at-gun-hearing.html)
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 27, 2013, 06:51:23 AM
^^O^^ hehe haha :?

Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 27, 2013, 08:20:47 AM
Nam,

I don't think the karma system is designed to correct grammar.  If I smited someone every time I saw a grammatical error there would be a lot of smiting going on.

It's abusing the system.  You just can't leave me alone can you?  Who names a boy Lindsey anyway?  I don't keep up with SC politics I live in North Carolina. 

You are a cruel man.  So now you have to reply and what you said before is moot.  So let's hear why an innocent mistake deserves a smite.  I have seen several grammatical errors just this morning, seems you have some smiting to go do.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on July 27, 2013, 12:15:13 PM
^^ I just want to add that sneaking around smiting someone you are no longer engaging is in my opinion the act of a coward.  Just like not apologizing for your terribly insulting posts.

And why won't any christians engage me here.  I thoroughly enjoy my conversations with atheists but I really want to engage some christians.  They will jump in to a debate with y'all but seem to avoid me like the plague. :? 
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: greenmoon on August 29, 2013, 06:54:25 AM
I deal with engineering contracts at work,
I am starting to believe that the bible is similar, I think it's written by farmers and merchants, etc
And rich people to cater there needs, ie animal and livestock , etc, and laws
Mention of God has crept in to scare people at the time

Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: median on September 19, 2013, 10:28:40 AM
I deal with engineering contracts at work,
I am starting to believe that the bible is similar, I think it's written by farmers and merchants, etc
And rich people to cater there needs, ie animal and livestock , etc, and laws
Mention of God has crept in to scare people at the time


Yep, this was the case with many religions. Men made up bullshit to suit their own purposes, correctly anticipating that people are gullible (and often them being gullible themselves).
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 01, 2013, 09:34:28 AM
Your concept of god seems to be an intelligent designer. Are you saying your god planned all the living creatures from the start? If not are you saying your god just patched up his mistakes as he went along?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on October 02, 2013, 05:03:16 AM
Your concept of god seems to be an intelligent designer. Are you saying your god planned all the living creatures from the start? If not are you saying your god just patched up his mistakes as he went along?

Yes I think the Intelligent Designer planned every living creature from the start. 
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Graybeard on October 02, 2013, 07:15:08 AM
You mean like yellow-jackets, polio viruses, HIV, venomous spiders, neurotoxins, etc. And you believe that he threw in a few genetic disorders like Downs Syndrome, hemophilia and phenylketonuria (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genetic_disorders) just to show how powerful He is?

And why did he design us so that we are susceptible to cancer, whereas some other creatures aren't?

Fabulous - a really intelligent designer... pity He's an a**hole, eh?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 02, 2013, 09:59:08 AM
That would make him a very incompetent designer because nearly everything he designed has gone extinct. But for the sake of argument let's say he did it all just for humans. He must have spent much loving care designing the human appendix so that it would have no purpose except to burst and kill you at just the right time.

Do you believe that you were designed individually or that your that your body is the way it is because your parents just met and had sex?

Also, what about babies who are born deformed? Were they each individually designed by an intelligent designer?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on October 02, 2013, 11:57:03 AM
That would make him a very incompetent designer because nearly everything he designed has gone extinct. But for the sake of argument let's say he did it all just for humans. He must have spent much loving care designing the human appendix so that it would have no purpose except to burst and kill you at just the right time.

Do you believe that you were designed individually or that your that your body is the way it is because your parents just met and had sex?

Also, what about babies who are born deformed? Were they each individually designed by an intelligent designer?

I knew you were setting me up with that question.  I have defended and defended these remarks.  There is a purpose for everything.  Hell how do we know the Government isn't behind some diseases.  They do have germmie weapons, they call it chemical warfare.  It has long been suspected govvey was behind HIV.  Mankind is responsible for most extinctions!!!  I'm glad dinosaurs are gone have you seen Jurassic Park? ;)  I would relish a knew point of view FF but this is the same stuff I've been hearing for months and months.  I wish there was a way to easily access those posts so I could just repost them.

Graybeard your remark has no impact on my belief.

I see it as nothing more than people having no appreciation for the good things in life.  Focusing on the negative is not healthy. 

OK I'll repeat myself just for you FF.  I don't believe our creator cares as much about us having healthy bodies as much as healthy souls.  Our flesh is temporary our souls are not, IMO.   I just read 'Chicken Soup for the Soul", Breast Cancer yesterday and I love what it said at the end.  The chapter is called "Close the Door When You Leave".  It puts cancer in it's place and after every paragraph it says you may not tread on my spirit, you may not occupy my soul.    That space is off limits to anyone but God in my life.  It is how I'm staying positive through a very difficult time. 

I'm here because my mom and dad had sex.  Thanks for the visual, not. 

No I look at Intelligent Design like this.  When you bake a cake you know what ingredients you need to make it happen.  I see our creation in a similar way.  I think most of mankind's suffering is self inflicted.

I've always believed God only gives special children to special people.  W/O suffering we would not know empathy or compassion which I believe are vital attributes for humanity.  I saw a documentary on this woman who didn't have legs; born that way.  She got around on a skateboard.  She didn't sit around feeling sorry for herself.  She learned how to do things.  She got married and had kids.  She got her vehicle customized to her comfort.  She did not let it tread her spirit; she did not let it occupy her soul!
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 02, 2013, 01:08:10 PM

 I don't believe our creator cares as much about us having healthy bodies as much as healthy souls.  Our flesh is temporary our souls are not, IMO.

I've always believed God only gives special children to special people.  W/O suffering we would not know empathy or compassion which I believe are vital attributes for humanity.

If you think your god does not care about bodies, why do you involve him in evolution? I read on one of your posts that your god was a personal one from experience. Evolution is not part of your personal experience. Why not just say he is a god of consciousness?

By involving your god in evolution you have made him into a monster. One the most evil things that religious people say is that suffering is good so we can all feel sorry and it is still worse to say that disabled people are there to make you feel good. I am disappointed to read that, just as I was when I read that a bishop recently wrote that the holocaust was good for the Jews because they could feel how worthy they were.

This is my opinion SUFFERING IS ALWAYS BAD and we don't need it at all.

Anyway, you agree that you are the way you are because your parents met, and your parents are the way they are because their parents met and so on?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on October 03, 2013, 05:21:54 AM

 I don't believe our creator cares as much about us having healthy bodies as much as healthy souls.  Our flesh is temporary our souls are not, IMO.

I've always believed God only gives special children to special people.  W/O suffering we would not know empathy or compassion which I believe are vital attributes for humanity.

If you think your god does not care about bodies, why do you involve him in evolution? I read on one of your posts that your god was a personal one from experience. Evolution is not part of your personal experience. Why not just say he is a god of consciousness?

I beg to differ I have evolved from where I came from.  I seriously hope I have altered my gene pool for the better!


By involving your god in evolution you have made him into a monster. One the most evil things that religious people say is that suffering is good so we can all feel sorry and it is still worse to say that disabled people are there to make you feel good. I am disappointed to read that, just as I was when I read that a bishop recently wrote that the holocaust was good for the Jews because they could feel how worthy they were.

Interesting POV Foxy F.  A Monster? :? I think you should prove that statement.  I didn't say suffering was good.  I said we learn from it.  That remark about Jews is a terrible thing to say. 



This is my opinion SUFFERING IS ALWAYS BAD and we don't need it at all.

Death is necessary.  The sooner you accept that the sooner you have peace of mind.  A natural death that is.  I wish everybody died from old age w/o any pain.  I believe mankind can accomplish this when we learn to work as a team!!! ;)



Anyway, you agree that you are the way you are because your parents met, and your parents are the way they are because their parents met and so on?


It feels good to agree. :laugh:

Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 03, 2013, 08:12:42 AM
I will deal with these points one post at a time.

The only personal experience you have is being human. The reason you have taken on the idea of intelligent design is because you have heard it from other people. Christians in Europe don't need to burden their god with an unnecessary appendage. They know what it does to their god.

Since you do agree that each generation is the way it is because their parents met and had the offspring they deserved, you might be surprised that this is a definition of evolution. There is no more to it than this statement. Everything we see in nature is a consequence of just this.

Your statement that god has designed everything totally contradicts your statement that each generation can choose for itself. If god did design everything then every individual would be forced to choose its mate, every individual would have to be formed the way it is, and every disabled person could blame god. To form the gene pool, every single individual must be designed.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: nogodsforme on October 03, 2013, 05:27:21 PM
I've always believed God only gives special children to special people.  W/O suffering we would not know empathy or compassion which I believe are vital attributes for humanity.--JB

I would like to comment on this, because it is based on a lot of unfounded assumptions and dare I say it, ignorance.

I assume by "special children" JB means children with birth defects, disabilities, rare illnesses, behavioral disorders, and so forth. "Special people" are, presumably, those who rise to the challenge of caring well for children with these difficult conditions. The implication of the second sentence is that god makes some children disabled on purpose so that the people who come into contact with them feel sorry for them and their suffering.

Now, some facts:
1) Most "special children" in human history have died horrible, painful deaths at birth or as small babies, because there was no way to care for them.  Before the 20th century, there were very few severely disabled kids around, because they never survived infancy. Thanks, god.

2) Caring for a child with severe problems takes a terrible emotional and financial toll on a family, usually leading to neglect of other children in the family. Often, having a child who will need constant care for their entire life is just too much of a strain. Divorce and family disintegration are not uncommon. Thanks again, god.

3) In poor countries, when families can't care for them, these children are abandoned to orphanages or even neglected to the point of early death. Too bad the compassion and empathy have to take a back seat to feeding the other kids you have. So nice of god to do that to these children.

4) The orphanages are overcrowded and underfunded, so the children are again severely neglected.  I volunteered at one such place and the staff was stretched so thin that they were just able to feed and clean the children. They did not even have time to hold the babies or play with the children, so that is what I did. A friend volunteered at a center for abandoned kids in Romania and saw such horrors that she never got over it. Gee, god. Maybe you should think before making any more of these kids?

5) After being in such conditions, if the kids are ever adopted, they have serious attachment disorders and emotional disturbances-- some attack and stab other family members, etc. One special family put their messed up little special angel on a plane back to Russia. Alone. How special.

6) In many countries, people "rent" these kids from their desperate parents and make them beg, then take all that they earn. The adults in these kids' lives, far from learning compassion and empathy, decline to give the kids medical treatment so they look more pitiful and earn extra from begging.

7) Even when there is enough money, not every person who deals with these kids is "special". Some are abusive and crazy.We have just had a trial in our area of a sweet Christian family who beat and starved the disabled children they adopted from Africa. One girl died from the treatment. The sweet Christian dad says he had nothing to do with it, throwing the sweet Christian mom under the bus. Sweet.

It does a disservice to the social service agencies, teachers, emergency workers, police and other people who have to deal with these situations to gloss it over with craptastic Pollyanna statements like "God only gives special children to special people". Not in the real world, JB.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on October 05, 2013, 07:34:11 AM
God don't make children.  Humans have sex and babies are made.  Some adults are extremely irresponsible with this huge responsibility.  Every human being on this planet knows the risks but yet we hump like rabbits.  Women that are malnourished or drug addicted awn't not be having babies.   Regardless having a baby is a choice. 

That specific statement, I've always believed God only gives special children to special people, is meant for those outstanding people that love their "special children" unconditionally.  Here in the Appalachians mothers and especially fathers still show preference to sons.  Girls are still raised to be house keepers, and not good ones at that.  The hillbillies have "evolved" some but there is a long way to go. :o

For your claim of ignorance to be fact I believe you need to show how humanity has acquired empathy and compassion w/o suffering.  Thanks.

My perfect example of argument from ignorance is this one;  God doesn't exist but God's to blame for all our suffering. :? 
 
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Graybeard on October 05, 2013, 07:46:04 AM
Hell how do we know the Government isn't behind some diseases.

Because we do not suffer from paranoid delusions, nor do we go in for cretinous conspiracy theories, nor do we invent silly stories devoid of evidence just because we do not know the answer.

Have you any more questions?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on October 05, 2013, 08:29:03 AM
I will deal with these points one post at a time.

The only personal experience you have is being human. The reason you have taken on the idea of intelligent design is because you have heard it from other people. Christians in Europe don't need to burden their god with an unnecessary appendage. They know what it does to their god.

Since you do agree that each generation is the way it is because their parents met and had the offspring they deserved, you might be surprised that this is a definition of evolution. There is no more to it than this statement. Everything we see in nature is a consequence of just this.

Your statement that god has designed everything totally contradicts your statement that each generation can choose for itself. If god did design everything then every individual would be forced to choose its mate, every individual would have to be formed the way it is, and every disabled person could blame god. To form the gene pool, every single individual must be designed.

You do not know me well enough to draw such conclusions.  This whole reply is weak and full of holes.  You really should have put more thought into it  FF.

I am 41 years old I have watched mankind evolve in several ways most of all technologically.  To say I have no personal experience is falsifiable.  Now I'm not a professional debater I just speak my mind here but if your goal is to become a brilliant debater you're a long way off.

I believe the question we are debating is where did that first offspring come from.  There had to be a man and a woman.  They had to figure out what those body parts were there for.  I bet the woman instinctively knew something was growing inside and that it was a baby.  I bet she even realized it was there because she connected with the man.  It took intelligence and love to have and nurture that first child.  Before there were schools there was intelligence.  There is a reason for male and female.  Do you think they evolved together or did they meet by chance?  A couple of rebel apes that thought losing the fur was a good idea.  But now you have to kill to get fur from animals to stay warm. :?

Please if you're going to quote me either link me to the quote or post it here.  I don't recall saying God has designed everything.  My theory is that God created our planet and us to do with as we chose; a gift.  The choices our ancestors made effect us now as our decisions will effect our offspring's offspring and so on and so on... You describe created robots w/o any choices and that is completely the opposite of how I understand God.

Hell how do we know the Government isn't behind some diseases.

Because we do not suffer from paranoid delusions, nor do we go in for cretinous conspiracy theories, nor do we invent silly stories devoid of evidence just because we do not know the answer.

Have you any more questions?

Devoid of evidence GB?  Don't you watch the news.  It is a well known fact the American government has experimented with germ warfare.  What was on that envelope sent to the President just a few months ago? S1N1 virus?  This stuff is public knowledge.  No paranoia necessary. ;)
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 05, 2013, 08:38:27 AM
1) God don't make children.  Humans have sex and babies are made.  Some adults are extremely irresponsible with this huge responsibility.  Every human being on this planet knows the risks but yet we hump like rabbits.  Women that are malnourished or drug addicted awn't not be having babies.   Regardless having a baby is a choice. 


2) For your claim of ignorance to be fact I believe you need to show how humanity has acquired empathy and compassion w/o suffering.  Thanks.

3) My perfect example of argument from ignorance is this one;  God doesn't exist but God's to blame for all our suffering. :? 
 

1) intelligent design means that god designs every single creature that has ever lived. You cannot design a species without designing every single individual in the gene pool. Every creature that has ever lived or died had to live or die exactly as it did. Every baby had to be born exactly as it was. Every baby that died had to die exactly as it did. Every victim in the concentration camps had to die exactly as they did. It means that no one ever had freewill or free choice. This is what intelligent design means and that is why European Christians won't touch it.

Either you believe from your own experience that babies are a free choice or you believe the words of charlatans that it was done by intelligent design. Both cannot be true. Which is it?

2) I am sure there was suffering. It was the result of evolution not god.

3) We are talking about your concept of god, the monster of intelligent design. Your comments show that you have not thought through the full implications of intelligent design.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Add Homonym on October 05, 2013, 08:54:51 AM
I knew you were setting me up with that question.  I have defended and defended these remarks.  There is a purpose for everything.  Hell how do we know the Government isn't behind some diseases.  They do have germmie weapons, they call it chemical warfare.  It has long been suspected govvey was behind HIV.

Yes, but you will notice that the people who suspect it, are all uneducated fart-brained arrogant drug-filled idiots. My neighbour believes that, and he is a compulsive liar, delusional semi-autistic dope addict, who non-selectively believes anything like that, because it suits his viewpoint. I once watched him agonize over a perpetual energy cell, which was supposed to power his car. I explained to him how he was being conned at every point, but he ignored everything I said, due to his overbearing arrogance. Everyone on the yahoo group, who was discussing the matter, had zero education in science, and were impervious to thought. They were of the level of stupid that does not realise they are stupid.

Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 05, 2013, 08:58:19 AM


1) You do not know me well enough to draw such conclusions.  This whole reply is weak and full of holes.  You really should have put more thought into it  FF.

2) I am 41 years old I have watched mankind evolve in several ways most of all technologically.  To say I have no personal experience is falsifiable.  Now I'm not a professional debater I just speak my mind here but if your goal is to become a brilliant debater you're a long way off.


1) I am totally convinced that you are only human and have never been anything else. Does that sound like I don't know you well enough?

2) So you think you have seen "mankind evolve in several ways" in 41 years? We will let the reader decide whose "reply is weak and full of holes."
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Azdgari on October 05, 2013, 09:02:16 AM
I am curious as to whether Junebug can point out the specific changes to the human gene pool that she's seen occur in the past 41 years.

Junebug, "evolution" in this discussion refers to the change to a species' genome over successive generations, not to new technological inventions.  Those are not evolution.  They are changes to what we can do, not to what we are.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 05, 2013, 09:45:15 AM
I don't recall saying God has designed everything.  My theory is that God created our planet and us to do with as we chose; a gift.

In your first post to me above you said god planned EVERY living creature from the start and you later said that this was based on personal experience of evolution. To quote your words "I have evolved from where I came from."

Here you have moved on to admitting that it is not personal experience but a THEORY that god created the planet. I hope that you are making progress and not just contradicting yourself.

Being able to change your mind is a good thing. Everyone here will applaud you for it. They won't think less of you for changing your mind. I sometimes change my mind about important things.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: median on October 05, 2013, 12:45:28 PM
  I don't recall saying God has designed everything.  My theory is that God created our planet and us to do with as we chose; a gift.


This isn't a theory. It is a mere guess based upon an argument from ignorance fallacy. "Well, I can't think of any other way it could have happened. So I'm just going to go with the belief that makes me feel good." In any case, this "theory" of yours isn't tentative is it? It's not like you're holding it with a open hand - readily willing to give it up if you discover your reasons are irrational. You are wholly committed to it. So then you are practicing intellectual dishonesty. Your "theory" is not just a theory (aka - guess/hypothesis). It is a conclusion you've drawn from the beginning - instead of withholding judgment and doing disinterested work to find out. As has been noted so many times before, that is backwards thinking - starting with your conclusion (what you are calling "theory") and then filtering all evidence through that bias. That very foundation (the lack of critical thinking) is what has given rise to bad ideas throughout the ages (including the bible). It should be corrected immediately.


Btw, the bible is not a disgrace to God (Yahweh) - because there is no Yahweh. The bible is a disgrace to human beings and the planet earth. That is all that matters.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on October 06, 2013, 11:50:50 AM
  I don't recall saying God has designed everything.  My theory is that God created our planet and us to do with as we chose; a gift.


This isn't a theory. It is a mere guess based upon an argument from ignorance fallacy. "Well, I can't think of any other way it could have happened. So I'm just going to go with the belief that makes me feel good." In any case, this "theory" of yours isn't tentative is it? It's not like you're holding it with a open hand - readily willing to give it up if you discover your reasons are irrational. You are wholly committed to it. So then you are practicing intellectual dishonesty. Your "theory" is not just a theory (aka - guess/hypothesis). It is a conclusion you've drawn from the beginning - instead of withholding judgment and doing disinterested work to find out. As has been noted so many times before, that is backwards thinking - starting with your conclusion (what you are calling "theory") and then filtering all evidence through that bias. That very foundation (the lack of critical thinking) is what has given rise to bad ideas throughout the ages (including the bible). It should be corrected immediately.


Btw, the bible is not a disgrace to God (Yahweh) - because there is no Yahweh. The bible is a disgrace to human beings and the planet earth. That is all that matters.

I have done disinterested work.  I bet I do more disinterested work than you do.

What am I doing here if not disinterested work?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on October 06, 2013, 12:23:12 PM

1) intelligent design means that god designs every single creature that has ever lived. You cannot design a species without designing every single individual in the gene pool. Every creature that has ever lived or died had to live or die exactly as it did. Every baby had to be born exactly as it was. Every baby that died had to die exactly as it did. Every victim in the concentration camps had to die exactly as they did. It means that no one ever had freewill or free choice. This is what intelligent design means and that is why European Christians won't touch it.

Either you believe from your own experience that babies are a free choice or you believe the words of charlatans that it was done by intelligent design. Both cannot be true. Which is it?

2) I am sure there was suffering. It was the result of evolution not god.

3) We are talking about your concept of god, the monster of intelligent design. Your comments show that you have not thought through the full implications of intelligent design.

Mankind was designed with freewill.  All other creatures got instinct.  When I say I believe there was intelligence involved I'm not talking about the "intelligent Design Theory" that you are thinking of. For someone that read this whole post you should know me better than that.   

If you don't have something knew; this is off topic for this thread. 
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on October 06, 2013, 12:35:20 PM
  I don't recall saying God has designed everything.  My theory is that God created our planet and us to do with as we chose; a gift.


This isn't a theory. It is a mere guess based upon an argument from ignorance fallacy. "Well, I can't think of any other way it could have happened. So I'm just going to go with the belief that makes me feel good." In any case, this "theory" of yours isn't tentative is it? It's not like you're holding it with a open hand - readily willing to give it up if you discover your reasons are irrational. You are wholly committed to it. So then you are practicing intellectual dishonesty. Your "theory" is not just a theory (aka - guess/hypothesis). It is a conclusion you've drawn from the beginning - instead of withholding judgment and doing disinterested work to find out. As has been noted so many times before, that is backwards thinking - starting with your conclusion (what you are calling "theory") and then filtering all evidence through that bias. That very foundation (the lack of critical thinking) is what has given rise to bad ideas throughout the ages (including the bible). It should be corrected immediately.


Btw, the bible is not a disgrace to God (Yahweh) - because there is no Yahweh. The bible is a disgrace to human beings and the planet earth. That is all that matters.

Oh contrair I have said here a few times I will change my mind if proven irrational.  Y'all haven't done it.  In fact I have been more successful proving my beliefs rational here; especially to myself.  You've made many assumptions in that paragraph.  I go with a belief that makes me feel rational and morally right.  I called it a theory because it is one. 

Not if you want to change the minds of religious humans. ;)
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 06, 2013, 01:13:14 PM
Yes I think the Intelligent Designer planned every living creature from the start.


I don't recall saying God has designed everything.

Your posts are not exactly clear on the subject. Your ideas of design are conflicting with your other beliefs.

All animals have freewill to choose their mates. They are very choosy. There was no first offspring for any creature because every creature is the same species as its parents. Changes accumulate over many generations.

Any kind of design will produce the logical consequence of robots if each individual has to pass on particular ingredients. When we look at nature we see that animals are not robots, they actively  choose their mates. Have you owned a cat or a dog?

I can see two ways out of this design problem. One is to say that god did not plan or design anything but he knew in advance what would happen. This means that he did not cause the moral monstrosity of design, he just allowed evolution to happen and knew the result. The second way out is to say that god is a god of consciousness and never was involved in the physical universe.

Do either of these seem valid to you?

I can understand your beliefs better than you might think and I am not against them except for this idea of design. When I was younger I used to talk to a friend of my parents about Hinduism and I still have a kind of emotional attachment to some of the ideas although I don't believe in the gods.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: nogodsforme on October 06, 2013, 02:06:16 PM
I find that some of the ideas of Hinduism are more logically consistent with the way the world actually works than anything in the Abrahamic line. Why do some people suffer more than others? Because they screwed up more in a previous life. How do we prevent suffering in the future? Don't screw up now.  :angel:

Of course what "don't screw up" entails in Hinduism is complete bollocks, with unscientific ideas about caste, gender, reincarnation, food taboos and polytheism. But once you accept that it was as completely made up as any other religion, it does hold together more logically.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 06, 2013, 03:41:44 PM
I was thinking more of toleration of many beliefs (different people have different gods with different names) and the idea that your own effort matters and you can make a difference.

Jesus denies all these things, you have to believe in Jesus alone, you can't do anything unless god grants it, and you can't change god's mind to favour you if he doesn't want to.

There are many other ways that it is better than Christianity. Caste is bad, but for Christians the untouchables are all non Christians, so Christianity also has the worst parts but none of the good parts. Religions with one god are the most violent and self righteous because they think they have the only god on their side.

It is not as good as having no belief of course because the direction of your effort is important too.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: nogodsforme on October 06, 2013, 06:37:53 PM
Yeah, the idea that what you think and believe matters more than what you actually do is very screwed up. Belief is based on upbringing, exposure to ideas, the way your brain is wired. Nobody knows what is going on in your head, because until you act on it nobody has a clue.

You can't really control what you think and believe, but you have a lot of control over what you do. Stephen King can think about killing people all day long, but unless he actually does it, he stays out of jail and gets rich writing about it. A god or religion that would judge people on their private thoughts rather than their public actions is really messed up.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 06, 2013, 07:10:05 PM
Ideas are what make you who you are. That is the whole premise of this website. You do what you do because of the ideas you have.

You have less control over your actions than you do over your ideas because situations can prevent you from acting according to your ideas. Situations can actually force you to do things which you never intended.

Where did Stephen King, god and religion come from? I don't worship any of the three not even Stephen King.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 07, 2013, 04:38:04 PM
So junebug, you are an expert on intelligent design and you have made up your own theory on the subject?

Yes I think the Intelligent Designer planned every living creature from the start.

Maybe you can share some of your expertise on the subject, if you don't mind?

No I look at Intelligent Design like this.  When you bake a cake you know what ingredients you need to make it happen.  I see our creation in a similar way. 

Anything else?

I don't believe our creator cares as much about us having healthy bodies as much as healthy souls.  Our flesh is temporary our souls are not, IMO.

I've always believed God only gives special (disabled) children to special  people.  W/O suffering we would not know empathy or compassion

And all this was learned from personal experience was it?



I am 41 years old I have watched mankind evolve in several ways most of all technologically.  To say I have no personal experience is falsifiable.


I suppose that you have thought about the fact that any intelligent design makes every living creature into a robot? Does that really agree with your personal experience?


I have done disinterested work.

So not personal experience then? Do you know that all kinds of intelligent design also have something else in common, they are all wrong?

I don't recall saying God has designed everything. 

So how do you know this new idea is correct?

I go with a belief that makes me feel rational and morally right. 


How do you believe you feel today? Do you think you are more rational than other people?

In fact I have been more successful proving my beliefs rational here; especially to myself. 

Can we see how rational your ideas appear to other people?



I believe the question we are debating is where did that first offspring come from.  There had to be a man and a woman.  They had to figure out what those body parts were there for.  I bet the woman instinctively knew something was growing inside and that it was a baby.  I bet she even realized it was there because she connected with the man.  It took intelligence and love to have and nurture that first child.  Before there were schools there was intelligence.  There is a reason for male and female.  Do you think they evolved together or did they meet by chance?  A couple of rebel apes that thought losing the fur was a good idea.  But now you have to kill to get fur from animals to stay warm. :?

That certainly does look like a rational argument special to yourself. Have you considered looking at research by experts in biology?


For someone that read this whole post you should know me better than that.   


Do you not think that experts in biology know more about evolution than you do ?



I beg to differ I have evolved from where I came from.


You won't change your mind?


Oh contrair I have said here a few times I will change my mind if proven irrational.

I can't wait.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: median on October 07, 2013, 11:09:39 PM

I have done disinterested work.  I bet I do more disinterested work than you do.

What am I doing here if not disinterested work?


Please demonstrate here the 'disinterested' (meaning unbiased and without an agenda) work you have done in order to demonstrate there is a god/afterlife.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: median on October 07, 2013, 11:14:16 PM
Oh contrair I have said here a few times I will change my mind if proven irrational.  Y'all haven't done it.  In fact I have been more successful proving my beliefs rational here; especially to myself.


That statement right there demonstrates that you have it 100% backwards (believing until someone proves you wrong). That is absurd. You have put the cart before the horse. And no, you have not proven your beliefs are rational (or sound) here. Claiming it is so doesn't make it so. Thus far, I've seen (and I think many here have seen as well) irrational arguments/justifications for a belief in a deity. But hey, if you've "got the goods" let hear them. Please demonstrate here a valid and sound argument for your belief in a deity.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Mrjason on October 08, 2013, 04:07:21 AM
Oh contrair I have said here a few times I will change my mind if proven irrational.  Y'all haven't done it.  In fact I have been more successful proving my beliefs rational here; especially to myself.  You've made many assumptions in that paragraph.  I go with a belief that makes me feel rational and morally right.  I called it a theory because it is one. 

If proven irrational to whom?

Quote from: some french dude
The human brain is a complex organ with the wonderful power of enabling man to find reasons for continuing to believe whatever it is that he wants to believe.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on October 08, 2013, 06:45:55 AM
Foxy I can 't answer your outrageous number of questions.  Can't until you ask me something that relates to my beliefs not yours.  I believe God created a Natural existence with freewill.  I see evolution as a natural consequence of surroundings; the need to adapt.  If we were not blessed with evolution we'd still be dumb cave people but probably extinct.

Median, I was atheist for 7/8 years.  I'm constantly watching The Science Channel and learning what I can about science.   I have disregarded all religions and go by my own judgement.  You on the other hand along with every body else here have the hardest closed minds to open.  You think being condescending and sarcastic proves your point.  It doesn't it just makes you look arrogant.  My biggest gripe with Christians is not accepting people how they are.  Atheist seem to have the same problem.

I'm here reading all the sarcastic condescending crap.  That just makes me skeptical of ever turning away from belief in God.  I get closer to God every time I come here.  Explain that.  Please don't disregard this question.

I am curious as to whether Junebug can point out the specific changes to the human gene pool that she's seen occur in the past 41 years.

Junebug, "evolution" in this discussion refers to the change to a species' genome over successive generations, not to new technological inventions.  Those are not evolution.  They are changes to what we can do, not to what we are.

More intelligent brains should fall under evolution. 
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 08, 2013, 07:01:41 AM
Evolution can only be a natural consequence of surroundings if it was not planned.

For every creature the surroundings are every other creature. If one creature was planned then all had to be.

I gave you a way out of this further up the page but you did not take it at the time. The answer I gave you was not too far from your last statement so hopefully we are close to agreement now. See my reply 265

Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on October 08, 2013, 08:30:20 AM
i THINK EVOLUTION CAN BE A NATURAL OCCURENCE THAT WAS/is INEVITABLE.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Add Homonym on October 08, 2013, 08:39:01 AM
  I get closer to God every time I come here.  Explain that.  Please don't disregard this question.

I don't think you'd like my explanation of why you feel closer to God, but feel free to disclose what measurements you are using, (and also, how far there is to go).

My biggest gripe with Christians is not accepting people how they are.  Atheist seem to have the same problem.

Atheists have more evidence.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Azdgari on October 08, 2013, 09:18:40 AM
More intelligent brains should fall under evolution.

Only if they're the result of genetic changes.  Otherwise, find another word for it that's harder to mix up with actual biological evolution.

Unless language-confusion is your goal, however.  But I think you're more honest than that.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 08, 2013, 09:25:35 AM
i THINK EVOLUTION CAN BE A NATURAL OCCURENCE THAT WAS/is INEVITABLE.

Can you be more exact about how you think evolution can be a natural consequence of adaptation, and still be planned?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: One Above All on October 08, 2013, 09:28:00 AM
Can you be more exact about how you think evolution can be a natural consequence of adaptation, and still be planned?

That's an easy one. An omniscient and omnipotent god can set the variables so that a universe will develop as it wishes. Therefore, evolution (or whatever) is both the result of the physical laws of said universe and the god's wishes.
And yes, I know this question was not directed at me. I just felt I should answer it and save us all some time.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on October 08, 2013, 09:35:21 AM
i THINK EVOLUTION CAN BE A NATURAL OCCURENCE THAT WAS/is INEVITABLE.

Can you be more exact about how you think evolution can be a natural consequence of adaptation, and still be planned?

I didn't say it was planned I said it happens naturally.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 08, 2013, 09:48:31 AM
i THINK EVOLUTION CAN BE A NATURAL OCCURENCE THAT WAS/is INEVITABLE.

Can you be more exact about how you think evolution can be a natural consequence of adaptation, and still be planned?

I didn't say it was planned I said it happens naturally.

Can we agree then that maybe god foresaw the result of evolution but did not plan it?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on October 08, 2013, 10:00:28 AM
I don't think you'd like my explanation of why you feel closer to God, but feel free to disclose what measurements you are using, (and also, how far there is to go).


Yes my trust and faith is constantly reassured.  Things just turn out better when I follow God's will.  I'd say for me I'm 75% there.

Atheists have more evidence.

No they do not!  Y'all work with as much lack of knowledge as I do.  There is no absolute knowledge!!! You can not prove that God did not cause the big bang and place our galaxy together, creating the perfect planet for life to exist.  Then you can not prove that God did not create life on that perfect planet to evolve naturally to what we are today.



i THINK EVOLUTION CAN BE A NATURAL OCCURENCE THAT WAS/is INEVITABLE.

Can you be more exact about how you think evolution can be a natural consequence of adaptation, and still be planned?

I didn't say it was planned I said it happens naturally.

Can we agree then that maybe god foresaw the result of evolution but did not plan it?

OK I can agree with that because you used the word, maybe god forsaw.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: median on October 08, 2013, 10:15:41 AM

Median, I was atheist for 7/8 years.  I'm constantly watching The Science Channel and learning what I can about science.   I have disregarded all religions and go by my own judgement.  You on the other hand along with every body else here have the hardest closed minds to open.  You think being condescending and sarcastic proves your point.  It doesn't it just makes you look arrogant.  My biggest gripe with Christians is not accepting people how they are.  Atheist seem to have the same problem.

I'm here reading all the sarcastic condescending crap.  That just makes me skeptical of ever turning away from belief in God.  I get closer to God every time I come here.  Explain that.  Please don't disregard this question.


Notice how nearly everything in your response here has to do with how you feel. You didn't provide any rational arguments. You didn't even provide any of this 'wisdom' you supposedly gained from the science channel. All you did was whine and cry about how people are making you feel here and that those feelings are are the motivating factor behind your belief in a deity. Well, I'm sorry to have to break it to you but your feelings are irrelevant to whether or not your beliefs are true - and claiming that you were an atheist for some years doesn't really get you anywhere here either because that term is used quite sloppily to mean varying things all the time. See, it is the, "my own judgment" that we are trying to get at. What exact judgment is that? What reasons (rational arguments, evidence, etc) can you provide for this belief - b/c again, all we've seen so far are irrational arguments using logical fallacies (and those are not good reasons).


p.s. - "Accepting people how they are" has absolutely nothing to do with it. You came to an atheist debate site and then start complaining that people aren't "accepting you". We are here for rational interchange. Whether or not we "accept" you as a person is completely aside from the point. I'm sorry that you solely identify yourself with your beliefs, but they are separate (as in you would not die if they changed). Let's get back to the topic.


Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jaimehlers on October 08, 2013, 11:25:35 AM
No they do not!  Y'all work with as much lack of knowledge as I do.  There is no absolute knowledge!!! You can not prove that God did not cause the big bang and place our galaxy together, creating the perfect planet for life to exist.  Then you can not prove that God did not create life on that perfect planet to evolve naturally to what we are today.
Right, there is no absolute knowledge.  But that goes both ways, as I hope you understand.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on October 08, 2013, 11:39:05 AM
No they do not!  Y'all work with as much lack of knowledge as I do.  There is no absolute knowledge!!! You can not prove that God did not cause the big bang and place our galaxy together, creating the perfect planet for life to exist.  Then you can not prove that God did not create life on that perfect planet to evolve naturally to what we are today.
Right, there is no absolute knowledge.  But that goes both ways, as I hope you understand.

That's what I just said itn't it. It's in bold. 
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on October 08, 2013, 12:00:29 PM

Median, I was atheist for 7/8 years.  I'm constantly watching The Science Channel and learning what I can about science.   I have disregarded all religions and go by my own judgement.  You on the other hand along with every body else here have the hardest closed minds to open.  You think being condescending and sarcastic proves your point.  It doesn't it just makes you look arrogant.  My biggest gripe with Christians is not accepting people how they are.  Atheist seem to have the same problem.

I'm here reading all the sarcastic condescending crap.  That just makes me skeptical of ever turning away from belief in God.  I get closer to God every time I come here.  Explain that.  Please don't disregard this question.


Notice how nearly everything in your response here has to do with how you feel. You didn't provide any rational arguments. You didn't even provide any of this 'wisdom' you supposedly gained from the science channel. All you did was whine and cry about how people are making you feel here and that those feelings are are the motivating factor behind your belief in a deity. Well, I'm sorry to have to break it to you but your feelings are irrelevant to whether or not your beliefs are true - and claiming that you were an atheist for some years doesn't really get you anywhere here either because that term is used quite sloppily to mean varying things all the time. See, it is the, "my own judgment" that we are trying to get at. What exact judgment is that? What reasons (rational arguments, evidence, etc) can you provide for this belief - b/c again, all we've seen so far are irrational arguments using logical fallacies (and those are not good reasons).


p.s. - "Accepting people how they are" has absolutely nothing to do with it. You came to an atheist debate site and then start complaining that people aren't "accepting you". We are here for rational interchange. Whether or not we "accept" you as a person is completely aside from the point. I'm sorry that you solely identify yourself with your beliefs, but they are separate (as in you would not die if they changed). Let's get back to the topic.

You don't have a clue because your arrogance closes your mind.  I can't believe you got a +1 for this clueless jabber.  You do not understand me so your responses to me seem out of place to me and hard to understand. 

No I see nothing up there about my feelings, you could have at least put a couple in bold, I see someone trying to educate herself.  You didn't ask for a rational argument you asked if I had done any disinterested study and I gave you my answer.  You sir make absolutely no sense what so ever. 

That's like telling a former Christian they never truly believed.  I have no respect for double standards sir.  Did you get that argument from Christian friends? :o
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on October 08, 2013, 01:56:23 PM
No they do not!  Y'all work with as much lack of knowledge as I do.  There is no absolute knowledge!!! You can not prove that God did not cause the big bang and place our galaxy together, creating the perfect planet for life to exist.  Then you can not prove that God did not create life on that perfect planet to evolve naturally to what we are today.
Right, there is no absolute knowledge.  But that goes both ways, as I hope you understand.

Funny.

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: median on October 08, 2013, 06:17:23 PM

You don't have a clue because your arrogance closes your mind. 

It's funny how you mistake my intelligence for arrogance and closed mindedness but it isn't surprising why you've made that mistake (and once again - red herring/off topic). Btw, rejecting irrational arguments is neither arrogant nor closed-minded, sorry.

You do not understand me so your responses to me seem out of place to me and hard to understand.

Your failure to properly communicate your position isn't any indication of the validity or soundness of my rebuttals to your arguments.

No I see nothing up there about my feelings, you could have at least put a couple in bold, I see someone trying to educate herself.  You didn't ask for a rational argument you asked if I had done any disinterested study and I gave you my answer.  You sir make absolutely no sense what so ever. 

This seems to be so typical of your approach - making claims without backing them up. See, you haven't shown that my responses to you make no sense. You just keep chanting it like a mantra. It's really unimpressive and childish. I've asked twice now for you to provide the "disinterested research" you claim to have done (aka - the arguments/evidence that you have which lead you to conclude there's some deity) and you keep coming back with 1) no evidence, and 2) (to others) logical fallacies (such as Arguments from Ignorance/Incredulity (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity) and the fallacy of Shifting the Burden of Proof (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html)). One would think that if you actually had some really good evidence (that you found in a disinterested fashion) you would readily share it. I suspect though that you do not. Please prove me wrong by presenting the research/evidence which you claim to have and/or have done.

That's like telling a former Christian they never truly believed.  I have no respect for double standards sir.  Did you get that argument from Christian friends? :o

This statement demonstrates the fallacy of a Strawman Argument (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html). I did not (in any way) claim that you were never an atheist. Further, this analogy fails ( (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html)False Analogy (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/False_analogy)) because it does not properly map to my statement you placed in bold. Just b/c you claim to have been an atheist (someone who lacks belief in a god) doesn't tell us anything about your reasoning process or whether or not you were actually someone who practiced critical thinking (avoiding logical fallacies in your beliefs, etc) and if your past posts are any indication then I have significant reason to question such ideas. Furthermore, whether or not you were 'an atheist' for some years has nothing to do with this subject. So that is another fallacy (Red Herring (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html)). What is relevant is whether or not your claims to having done "disinterested" study regarding a god/deity are valid, sound, and demonstrable (and saying, "You can't prove he doesn't exist!) is not sound. It is fallacious (see Shifting the Burden of Proof above). So you've made at least 4 logically fallacious arguments here all within the last two posts, and myself and others are attempting to point them out. It is not surprising though why you seem to be combating our rebuttals. You have a lot to lose ("hope" as you call it) and thus it seems you have a vested interest in pushing aside any correction to your arguments. Is this what you call "disinterested"?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: nogodsforme on October 08, 2013, 09:57:49 PM
JB, what I think median is saying, in a very erudite way, is that your position on god, the afterlife, etc is derived from emotion, how you feel, rather than from rationality or research. For example, you have said many times that it helps you in your life to believe in god, and that your ideas about an afterlife give you hope and solace during hard times. This is all about feelings, not research.

This is the same as saying that it helps football players win games if they pray to god before going out onto the field. If both teams pray, god still only helps one to win. We know that one team will win and one will lose, so praying will only "help" one team to win. I hope you understand that praying to or believing in god does not make any real difference in which team wins the football game. No matter how strongly the players feel about god.

Likewise, praying or believing in god does not help a country win a war or avoid a natural disaster or recover from a recession. Believing in god does not help people get jobs or survive a plane crash or recover from an operation. Believing in god does not help in any real way, or else we would clearly see the difference in the lives of god-believers. After thousands of years, there should be mountains of evidence in favor of god if belief was helpful. But there is none. We keep asking people for evidence of god and they can't show us any.

How long would you believe a friend who said they had a fancy new car if they could never show it to you? Years go by and they keep bumming rides, taking cabs and riding the bus, while telling you all about their wonderful new car.  Wouldn't you start to think that they did not really have the car? Where is the evidence of the car? you would ask. Not even a photo of the car with them in it, no car title or insurance card with their name on it. Probably they don't have a new car. We think the same thing about all the folks who keep telling us about their wonderful, invisible god....

The lives of god-believers are not better than the lives of atheists. Often the lives of god-believers are much, much worse. That is what the statistics on health, income, education, etc show. Doesn't the emphasis on a better afterlife make the most sense for people whose earthly lives suck? Doesn't that seem like a way to make people feel better when their prayers to god for help go unanswered?

The fact that you feel like god is helping you does not make it true.  That is why we keep asking you for your evidence that god is real, research that you have done on the afterlife, etc. But you keep giving us descriptions of how you feel. Feelings are remarkably inaccurate as measures of whether something is true or not. That is why con artists and charlatans are able to rip people off.

Teenagers believe they are in love with pop stars who they have never met. It makes the teenager very happy to believe that the love shared with the pop star is real.   The pop star does not know the teen exists, and the teen has never actually met the pop star. The pop star could be an a$$hole who hates teenagers in real life. If the teenager was going to drop out of school and move to the state where the pop star lives, this would clearly be an irrational decision. Despite the feelings the teen has, no facts support the idea that the pop star loves the teen. Likewise, no facts support the idea that there is a god who loves people. Just feelings.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on October 10, 2013, 05:39:22 AM
The evidence is me, you, and the earth.  Conscience.  Y'all consistently dismiss this as evidence but it is!!!  If I bake a cake the cake is evidence that I baked it.  Even if you can't see me there baking it somebody baked it and it wasn't santa claus.

Yes it is research.  If I want to know will God comfort my spirit I have to allow that.  My spirit was comforted and strengthened.

People shouldn't pray over football.

Seems funny to me that every book I've read on staying positive with cancer says to be spiritual. 

There are mountains everywhere and there are valleys, not much different from life is it? 

I've got a question for you Nogods.  When I was alone wanting to disappear/vanish felt nothing but despair where else could I have gone?  Humans were the ones hurting me.  Should I have turned to humans?  I'm telling you w/o God there I would have wept until I died!!! :'(   
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Dante on October 10, 2013, 06:59:51 AM
This all reminds me of watching a plane wreck, and the NTSB investigation being conducted by the Keystone Cops. Morbid enough so I can't look away, and hilariously amusing in a slap-stick sort of funny.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 10, 2013, 07:40:41 AM
*Reply to the thread name*

Indeed, the Koran is a much superior text, if offers virgins...
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Mrjason on October 10, 2013, 07:58:42 AM
*Reply to the thread name*

Indeed, the Koran is a much superior text, if offers virgins...

yes, 27 meter tall 4 meter wide virgins. 72 of them.
All of them remain 33 years old, presumably the "husband" ages otherwise what would be the point in specifically mentioning that the brides don't?

I think the interpretation of heaven is wrong, it's heaven for the women as they are strong and empowered whilst the husband is weak and increasingly feeble.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on October 10, 2013, 09:05:13 AM
If a man can't control one woman on Earth, what makes him think he can control 72 of them elsewhere?

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on October 10, 2013, 09:08:32 AM
The evidence is me, you, and the earth.  Conscience.  Y'all consistently dismiss this as evidence but it is!!!  If I bake a cake the cake is evidence that I baked it.  Even if you can't see me there baking it somebody baked it and it wasn't santa claus.

Yes it is research.  If I want to know will God comfort my spirit I have to allow that.  My spirit was comforted and strengthened.

People shouldn't pray over football.

Seems funny to me that every book I've read on staying positive with cancer says to be spiritual. 

There are mountains everywhere and there are valleys, not much different from life is it? 

I've got a question for you Nogods.  When I was alone wanting to disappear/vanish felt nothing but despair where else could I have gone?  Humans were the ones hurting me.  Should I have turned to humans?  I'm telling you w/o God there I would have wept until I died!!! :'(   


I know I am going to be smited, probably heavily for this, but I'm probably of the rare few who would actually say this and not feel bad about it afterward: to your last line: I really wished you would've then we wouldn't have to read your incessant whining everyday.

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 10, 2013, 09:42:13 AM
The evidence is me, you, and the earth.  Conscience.  Y'all consistently dismiss this as evidence but it is!!!  If I bake a cake the cake is evidence that I baked it.  Even if you can't see me there baking it somebody baked it and it wasn't santa claus.

Hasn't this been dismissed before?...

I recall this being one of the usual arguments from theists.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Jag on October 10, 2013, 09:56:58 AM
The evidence is me, you, and the earth.  Conscience.  Y'all consistently dismiss this as evidence but it is!!!  If I bake a cake the cake is evidence that I baked it.  Even if you can't see me there baking it somebody baked it and it wasn't santa claus.
You are here because your parents had sex - that's how mammals procreate. Nothing particularly mysterious about it. So are the rest of us. Earth is just one planet among countless others scattered across the universe. God went to all that effort to create an entire universe full of planters, stars, asteroids, meteors, black holes, and all the other stuff I'm not qualified to speak of, for the sole purpose of populating one planet with entities that could worship him? You, me and Earth are evidence that we exist - they are not evidence of a god. This is yet another thing you do not understand. Evidence that supports your explanation - because your position could just as easily be satisfied by any other god who has ever been propose by anyone, ever, in the entire history of the universe.
Quote
Yes it is research.
No, it's not. Research does not involve checking in on your feelings, it involves studying empirical evidence. EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE has nothing to do with feelings, emotions, or opinions. But go right ahead and keep saying it is - because you've already said you didn't come here to learn anything.
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If I want to know will God comfort my spirit I have to allow that.  My spirit was comforted and strengthened.
God can only do what you ALLOW?
Quote
People shouldn't pray over football.
For someone who doesn't follow a religion, you sure come up with a lot of rules about how one should conduct their lives in relation to god. Sounds a lot like religion, doesn't it?
Quote
Seems funny to me that every book I've read on staying positive with cancer says to be spiritual.
 
And I bet none of them suggest spending time arguing with atheists in a fight you will never win because your logic is flawed.
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There are mountains everywhere and there are valleys, not much different from life is it? 
No there are not mountains everywhere (most of the central US does not have mountains for instance) and I don't know what point you are trying to make.
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I've got a question for you Nogods.  When I was alone wanting to disappear/vanish felt nothing but despair where else could I have gone?  Humans were the ones hurting me.  Should I have turned to humans?  I'm telling you w/o God there I would have wept until I died!!! :'(
What you chose to do as a child with a limited understanding of the world is based on the reasoning abilities of a child. How you conduct your adult life should be based on the reasoning abilities of an adult. I'm sorry you had a difficult childhood. Many of us did as well, and got through it too. I don't let my childhood traumas direct my life as an adult - I accept the past as it is, and grow past the hurts. I have no interest whatsoever in dwelling on what can't be changed, the past belongs in the past. If you are still as stuck there as you've been indicating lately, you should be seeking professional help rather than relying on strangers on the internet to help you work through it.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on October 10, 2013, 10:19:36 AM
Florida has hills, no mountains, though.

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 10, 2013, 10:32:44 AM
The evidence is me, you, and the earth.  Conscience.  Y'all consistently dismiss this as evidence but it is!!!  If I bake a cake the cake is evidence that I baked it.  Even if you can't see me there baking it somebody baked it and it wasn't santa claus.


Jb don't go back to this baking analogy again. I showed you it cannot work. Someone does not have blue eyes and blonde hair because they were destined to. People have the eye colour and hair colour  which they have, just because of the pure chance that their parents met.

A better analogy you could use is to say that GOD STRUCK THE MATCH and watched the flames.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 10, 2013, 10:34:14 AM
Australia has like...this giant rock in the middle called Ularu...
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: median on October 10, 2013, 11:28:38 AM
The evidence is me, you, and the earth.  Conscience.  Y'all consistently dismiss this as evidence but it is!!!  If I bake a cake the cake is evidence that I baked it.  Even if you can't see me there baking it somebody baked it and it wasn't santa claus.

Earth/life does not tell anyone how it got here until you investigate - and no amount of your assumption/intuition is going to change that. Cakes are demonstrable and we have lots of examples of them being created by human beings. We do not, however, have lots of examples of universes, earths, or people being created by a 'God' deity thing. So your example is a False Analogy and begging the question (logical fallacies). If you have love for yourself, then you should be OK with being good to yourself by shedding irrational beliefs and holding rational ones (i.e. - you should value the truth and reality over fallacious arguments and intuitive assumptions and/or feelings).
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Dante on October 10, 2013, 12:10:03 PM
The evidence is me, you, and the earth.  Conscience.  Y'all consistently dismiss this as evidence but it is!!!  If I bake a cake the cake is evidence that I baked it.  Even if you can't see me there baking it somebody baked it and it wasn't santa claus.

This is your argument from ignorance fallacy.

But, you already knew that, because you've been shown it over and over again. Ad nauseum.

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Yes it is research.  If I want to know will God comfort my spirit I have to allow that.  My spirit was comforted and strengthened.

And to that I say, it's a good thing you're not a research scientist.

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People shouldn't pray over football.

Why not? I love football! And you say love is the most important thing, right?

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When I was alone wanting to disappear/vanish felt nothing but despair where else could I have gone?  Humans were the ones hurting me.  Should I have turned to humans?  I'm telling you w/o God there I would have wept until I died!!! :'(

Laughable. And tiresome buffoonery.

edit:(sp)
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: nogodsforme on October 10, 2013, 03:57:39 PM
The evidence is me, you, and the earth.  Conscience.  Y'all consistently dismiss this as evidence but it is!!!  If I bake a cake the cake is evidence that I baked it.  Even if you can't see me there baking it somebody baked it and it wasn't santa claus.

Yes it is research.  If I want to know will God comfort my spirit I have to allow that.  My spirit was comforted and strengthened.

People shouldn't pray over football.

Seems funny to me that every book I've read on staying positive with cancer says to be spiritual. 

There are mountains everywhere and there are valleys, not much different from life is it? 

I've got a question for you Nogods.  When I was alone wanting to disappear/vanish felt nothing but despair where else could I have gone?  Humans were the ones hurting me.  Should I have turned to humans?  I'm telling you w/o God there I would have wept until I died!!! :'(

JB, many people in the world, like you, have survived horrible situations.  Some think that they survived because of their religious faith in Jehovah, Allah, Krishna or Yemanya. Others will swear that they survived because they sacrificed animals to the Vodun gods.

Do you think that their gods all helped these people survive? Does their survival mean that all the different religions they believe in are true?

I have been through some pretty bad sh!t in my life as well. Humans hurt me as well. I did not turn to any gods or supernatural beings. How do you think I survived?

Finally, JB, just because you think that love, or the earth or conscience are evidence of your god, that does not make it true. Those things could just as easily be evidence for the gods of Hinduism or Santeria. If you want to give evidence, you have to show how those things have to be the result of actions taken by your god and not Thor or Shango.

And why shouldn't people pray over football? It makes not a bit of difference if they do or don't. There is no god to take an interest in human prayers.

People used to think that earthquakes and volcanoes were caused by the gods they believed in. Now we know what causes them, and it is not supernatural. Likewise, we know that feelings like love or depression are caused by chemicals in the brain--scientists can identify the chemicals that make people feel one way or another. And we know how and why humans evolved to have these feelings. It is not supernatural. 

People have survived cancer and other diseases by believing in Islam, Scientology and Rastafarianism. People have survived cancer without any spiritual or religious belief at all. Chances are very good that you will survive cancer by believing in your god of love. But before the 20th century, hardly anyone ever survived cancer no matter what they believed in. What does that tell you? What logical conclusion can you draw?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Jag on October 10, 2013, 04:27:33 PM
junebug,

I would appreciate it a great deal if you would read this entire post without losing your temper. Please read it from beginning to end and pause for a deep breath whenever you catch yourself thinking about your feelings about what I’m saying. I want you to understand what I am saying, not what you think I’m saying.

You are setting yourself up to be a victim here. Pause, take a deep breath, then keep reading.

You have cancer. We know that. You have been making a lot of remarks about your difficult childhood in the last few weeks (noticeably more than before, to be clear). You have also been making a lot of remarks (from the beginning, again to be clear) about atheists claiming to be good without God, and expecting this forum to prove that to you. Breathe again please.

I’m not going quite so far as to say that you are being deliberately and knowingly manipulative (breathe), but I do think you are creating a situation that will fulfill your expectations, whether you realize it or not (and one more deep breath). Yes junebug, a really shitty thing has happened to you, and it’s rocked your world on every level – most of us are not disputing that in any way whatsoever (stop thinking about Nam and pay attention please). But our worlds have not been impacted in the same way, and the general forum is designed for debate, not comfort.

My opinion, based on certain posts of yours across several threads, is that you have placed this forum in the position of being your online cancer support group. (You probably ought to take another deep breath here just in case) That’s a perfectly valid expectation – after all you’ve been an active member for some time now and we’ve gotten to know you a little bit in that time. I can show you specific posts if you insist on it, but I’m pretty sure you know what I’m talking about – you are “playing the sympathy card” frequently.

You have set some standard of behavior, or accommodation even, that we are not meeting. That is an argument you are not going to win – the forum is not going to become your personal therapy site in any place outside of the specific area designated for exactly that. You can find the support you are seeking there and participate everywhere else as well, or you can just hang out in the comfort zone, but you need to stop mixing them up. I imagine another deep breath is in order right about now.

You’ve expressed admiration for LoriPinkAngel more than once, yet you’ve ignored her clear suggestions that you avoid the very behavior you are exhibiting. If you choose to participate in any of the general forum areas, you should fully expect to be held to the exact same standards as anyone else – you’re participating of your own volition, so it will be assumed that you are capable of handling your emotions as well.

You don’t get to be angry that we are not meeting some standard you’ve deemed appropriate that we didn’t agree to abide by. The general forum is a free-for-all provided everyone stays within the limits set out in the forum rules. The mods determine what is and is not acceptable, not your emotional state.

If Nam is being mean to you, put him on ignore and stop responding to his bait. If you think screwtape is repeating something you’ve already refuted, consider his words carefully – don’t just zip off the same response you’ve given already, think about the question a bit more, because he’s on the same point for a reason. If you’re being told that you are using a logical fallacy, and you bothered to read any of the information provided to you that explains why, and you still think the accusation is wrong, ask why for f*** sakes instead of just saying “no, it’s not” and changing the subject.

junebug, your experience here is up to you – help yourself make it a better one for you. The forum is not going to remake itself to accommodate you, so you need to figure out how to get what you need from what is available if you still plan to stay. You need to take responsibility for asking for what you need, and for accepting that you are not always going to get it. No one here owes anyone else a thing without their consent and the WWGHA general forum did not agree to this.

You are only a victim if you choose to be one. You can decide to make a single different choice at any time, and look for the outcomes of that different choice. Other people are not going to follow a script that you have running in your head – they don’t have a copy so they will improvise, and that does not make them the bad guy, it just means your unstated expectations were not met. It’s rarely as personal as you want want to make it.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on October 10, 2013, 04:41:11 PM
Quote
You have cancer. We know that.

Do we really, Jag? I haven't read her "Cancer" topic, mainly because I'm a heartless sonofabitch when it comes to Junebug, but there I bet she's appreciative, accepting, perhaps even nice and coherent in the the things she says or replies to. She listens to the advice given, right? Her words may even sound quite intelligent.

Outside that topic she's the opposite. Does that make sense?

It's like she's pretending to be one thing one place and another elsewhere. That tells me 1. She's either lying about having Cancer or 2. She's schizophrenic.

I mean, of all places to be overtly emotional would be that topic. One little thing taken out of context, and she'd flip out like everywhere else on this website.

Has she done that there?

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Jag on October 10, 2013, 04:59:54 PM
^^^I'm not going to do this.

I'm taking her at her word, just like I would anyone else under the same circumstances.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on October 10, 2013, 05:08:01 PM
^^^I'm not going to do this.

I'm taking her at her word, just like I would anyone else under the same circumstances.

That's because you're nice. I'm not. I have the privilege of saying what I think without regret.

But what I said does make you think, right?

Don't have to respond.

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Willie on October 11, 2013, 03:01:55 AM
I've got a question for you Nogods.  When I was alone wanting to disappear/vanish felt nothing but despair where else could I have gone?  Humans were the ones hurting me.  Should I have turned to humans?  I'm telling you w/o God there I would have wept until I died!!! :'(

I'm not Nogods, but..

I think you're not giving yourself enough credit. I posit that the one who got you through that is none other than yourself. One of those lowly humans that you don't seem to think very highly of.

I think that the most poisonous aspect of Christianity is the way that it diminishes and disparages the nature of being human. It tells us that we are "fallen", sinful, evil, weak, feeble minded, and generally incapable of accomplishing anything worthwhile on our own. It tells us that we are sheep in need of a shepherd, to whom we should surrender our will. Proper behavior must be dictated to us ("Thou shalt...", "Thou shalt not...) because actually explaining it to lowly sheep would, of course, be futile. We're told that we shouldn't question or try to understand God's tales and rules and "mysterious" ways, because that is beyond what our feeble sheep minds can comprehend. Just believe. And obey. Because that's the only way that us worthless, fallen, evil, stupid sheep can ever be good. And even then, we're not really very good. Just forgiven.

Regardless of whether there are gods, I reject that. Human is an amazing and wonderful thing to be. We are not inherently evil. We are not ugly. We are not a blight on the world. We are not powerless. We are not doomed. We are not incomprehending. We are not sheep.

So what ARE we then? As Carl Sagan put it, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." Think about that for a moment. We give the universe consciousness. And in the process, we also give it value, beauty, and purpose. The entire universe would have no value if there were no one to value it. It would have no beauty if there were no one to perceive it. It would have no purpose if there were no one to make use of it. What a profound and privileged position we occupy. We may not be alone in that position, and there may be someone or something out there that does it better than us, but it's still pretty awesome. Some claim that life without God would have no meaning. They're wrong. It isn't any god that gives life meaning. It's us.

The Bible does have some good bits in it. For example, it says that one should "love your neighbor as yourself". The second part of that, to love yourself, is the prerequisite. And to do that, you have to see yourself as worthy of being loved. You have to see yourself as a person, with all of the complexity and potential that entials. Not as a sinner. Not as a sheep.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Strawman on October 11, 2013, 04:37:01 AM
I'm a bit late to the party and I've only read the first page of comments but here goes...

The use of historical figures in works of fiction is common practice, therefore, the historical inaccuracy of any events depicted in the bible doesn't affect the likelihood of Jesus' existence, or any other biblical character. The reverse is also true: if Jesus were proven to exist that is not proof of his divinity, nor does one accurately recorded event in the bible verify everything within its pages.

Junebug,
You do not trust the bible but is there any religious text that you do trust? Could you write a religious text that you could trust? Or do you think that it is impossible for mankind to interpret the word of god and there will never be a true religion?
Why do you believe that god loves you?

Quote
You have cancer. We know that.

Do we really, Jag? I haven't read her "Cancer" topic, mainly because I'm a heartless sonofabitch when it comes to Junebug, but there I bet she's appreciative, accepting, perhaps even nice and coherent in the the things she says or replies to. She listens to the advice given, right? Her words may even sound quite intelligent.
You are being extremely insensitive and disrespectful, Nam. Even if you have suspicions they should remain your own. This is one case where believing and being wrong is better than disbelieving and being wrong.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Jag on October 11, 2013, 08:44:17 AM
This is one case where believing and being wrong is better than disbelieving and being wrong.
My sentiments exactly.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 11, 2013, 08:52:24 AM
Quote
I've got a question for you Nogods.  When I was alone wanting to disappear/vanish felt nothing but despair where else could I have gone?  Humans were the ones hurting me.  Should I have turned to humans?  I'm telling you w/o God there I would have wept until I died!!! :'(   

Nice to know that you are not dead and all.

But there are these things called psychiatrists and counseling, those seem to help more people than any god.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on October 11, 2013, 08:54:08 AM
Quote
I've got a question for you Nogods.  When I was alone wanting to disappear/vanish felt nothing but despair where else could I have gone?  Humans were the ones hurting me.  Should I have turned to humans?  I'm telling you w/o God there I would have wept until I died!!! :'(   

Nice to know that you are not dead and all.

But there are these things called psychiatrists and counseling, those seem to help more people than any god.

But those are people.

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 11, 2013, 09:12:22 AM
But those are people.
;)

-Nam

I know...
But surely Junebug does not live in a place where the people who help you, make you feel worse.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: nogodsforme on October 11, 2013, 10:48:55 AM
This is one case where believing and being wrong is better than disbelieving and being wrong.
My sentiments exactly.
Ditto here.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: mrbiscoop on October 11, 2013, 11:08:27 AM
  Fuck it. Let's just everyone believe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Jag on October 11, 2013, 11:24:08 AM
Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said: "one can't believe impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Traveler on October 11, 2013, 02:02:40 PM
... When I was alone wanting to disappear/vanish felt nothing but despair where else could I have gone?  Humans were the ones hurting me.  Should I have turned to humans?  I'm telling you w/o God there I would have wept until I died!!! :'(

Yourself. That is who you turned to. You turned to your idea of god. I turned to my inner warrior. Another friend turned to the comfort of being in nature. Others turn to family, friends or their pets. You can call it god, but others have similar feelings of finding strength seemingly out of nowhere, but the mind is a powerful thing. Meditation, fantasy, hypnotism, prayer, and many other approaches, all can easily achieve the same thing.

I have no doubt that you've found strength you didn't know you had. However, leaping to god as an explanation is not the way to find the truth. Comfort, perhaps, but truth? No. It is not enough to make that assumption.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nick on October 11, 2013, 04:00:42 PM
Traveler, how did you ever get that 1 neg karma point?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: nogodsforme on October 11, 2013, 04:05:56 PM
Exactly, Traveler. If god saved JB from her childhood traumas, it must have been god who chose to put her there and who kept her there for so long, right? If JB had not survived, what would that say about god? And then when god had decided that JB had suffered the exact right amount, he rescued her. That's what I call love. Not.

God is good and loving and powerful--yet allows lots of people to suffer so much that they are on the verge of suicide or even kill themselves. And then gets the credit for saving the ones who manage to survive their suffering. How can god have it both ways?

It seems to me that you really have to be kind of crazy to believe that. I would rather see the world as it really is, with a few people doing bad things to each other and lots of people being strong enough to overcome and survive. Well, guess what? The evidence supports my view.

That idea that people can't accomplish great things without a supernatural power is what bugs me so much about other black people being so god-obsessed:

"God never gives us more than we can handle." Until he does. And then we become addicts, go mad or kill ourselves.

"I am so blessed!" Even though my dad is an alcoholic living on the streets, my mother has diabetes and no health care, I am on welfare with three kids, my baby daddy beats me, my sister is on drugs and my brother is in prison.  If that is blessed, god, please curse me instead.

"We could never have survived slavery or defeated Jim Crow or won our civil rights if it had not been for god." Meanwhile babies died from neglect, children were sold from their parents, women were raped by masters, people were maimed, lynched and beaten to death.

If god had the power to solve our problems all along, why did he wait hundreds of years to help?  And who put us in slavery, etc. in the first place? Someone more powerful than god? Or did god change his mind on the slavery bit? :?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on October 11, 2013, 08:00:30 PM
Quote from: Strawman
You are being extremely insensitive and disrespectful, Nam. Even if you have suspicions they should remain your own. This is one case where believing and being wrong is better than disbelieving and being wrong.

I am extremely "insensitive" and "disrespectful". Got anything new to add?

Why should my suspicions remain my own? Oh, because they are "insensitive" and "disrespectful", right? Fuck that. People here are "insensitive" and "disrespectful" all the time. Calling them "delusional", or variances of that. Insulting them for what they believe in, etc.,

I'm willing to admit the way I am. When are you?

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jaimehlers on October 11, 2013, 08:48:40 PM
I am extremely "insensitive" and "disrespectful". Got anything new to add?

Why should my suspicions remain my own? Oh, because they are "insensitive" and "disrespectful", right? Fuck that. People here are "insensitive" and "disrespectful" all the time. Calling them "delusional", or variances of that. Insulting them for what they believe in, etc.,

I'm willing to admit the way I am. When are you?
This wasn't directed at me, but it needs a response.

I don't particularly care that you're insensitive and disrespectful.  I can even understand why you're that way, and why you're suspicious of claims like "I've been diagnosed with cancer".  But you only seem suspicious of the claims made by people you don't like.  If an atheist made a similar claim, would you treat them the same way you treat junebug?  Or would you take them at their word?

You don't have any call to be proud of your insensitivity and disrespectfulness if you're only like that towards people you don't like, or who you disagree with.  Because that comes across as at least partially hypocritical.  It means you're using your disagreement or dislike as an excuse to indulge being nasty.

I don't actually know if this is the case.  If it isn't, then you have nothing to worry about.  But if it is, then you probably should spend some time thinking about it.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: nogodsforme on October 11, 2013, 08:59:01 PM
Yo, Nam. We have no evidence that JB is making up stuff about having cancer. This is different from her delusions about afterlives or magical love gods. She is not saying that she caught horndog clap from with Satan. She didn't say she has leprechaun disease or unicorn fever. People do get cancer. Lots of people. Cancer is real. There is no downside to accepting her at her word on that.

Suppose she really does not have cancer? So what? Even if you don't like her or respect her, it is no skin off your nose to stop with the remarks mocking her about [not] having cancer. Unless you are that attached to your mythical a$$hole persona.[1]


I had to edit this post to get past the younger and more sensitive filter....
 1. If you don't like what I just said, bring it. Name-calling on the internet does not phase me at all. It took the evil Catholic beeyatch forever to get under my skin. I'm a big, mean, black woman with enough years to be your older sister. If I said I had cancer and you responded the way you did to JB, we would be on flame alert/ignore right now.   8)
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on October 11, 2013, 09:55:26 PM
Yes there is: I enjoy it. This is who I am. Always have been. I don't know why y'all think I will change. I won't. And why? Because I don't care.

I don't like her. I've been up front about that. I still have her on ignore and it doesn't seem to really have an effect because y'all quote her, and say some of the same things i said months ago, now. It validates my position about her more and more. True, I'm more blunt than y'all are but, I don't care about that either.

Quote
If you don't like what I just said, bring it.

I don't care.

Quote
Name-calling on the internet does not phase me at all.

Nor me.

Quote
It took the evil Catholic beeyatch forever to get under my skin. I'm a big, mean, black woman with enough years to be your older sister.

Unless you're in your forties: try again.

Quote
If I said I had cancer and you responded the way you did to JB, we would be on flame alert/ignore right now.   

I have no reason not to believe you except that this is the internet, where evidence is lacking unless provided from more than one source.

That sounds familiar.

Either way, I'd believe you over her. Why? Because you have one voice. She seems to have more than one, which is quite evident.

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: nogodsforme on October 11, 2013, 10:00:24 PM
Whatever. Be the bad boy on the site. I don't care either.  &)

But little Nam, I haven't visited the 40's in a long time. I'll give you a hint-- the first president I remember was Kennedy. I may be old enough to be your mama. I have shoes older than you. Come to mama, baby. ;)
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on October 11, 2013, 10:15:17 PM
This wasn't directed at me, but it needs a response.

I don't particularly care that you're insensitive and disrespectful.  I can even understand why you're that way, and why you're suspicious of claims like "I've been diagnosed with cancer".  But you only seem suspicious of the claims made by people you don't like.  If an atheist made a similar claim, would you treat them the same way you treat junebug?

Okay, explain to me how you go from "people you don't like" to me liking every single "atheist"? I don't get that. Also, if you think I don't like certain atheists here, or elsewhere: you're sadly mistaken. I could name a list of atheists here I don't like but instead, I am going to list one: screwtape. I don't like him. We may agree on some issues, and I may applaud a comment or so once in awhile (I may have applauded Junebug once, who knows?) but I don't like him.

And he probably doesn't like me either. Most people don't. Doesn't mean I can't be friendly with them. Hell, I don't like GamerGirl (former member here sometimes at IGI, I believe) but I've had pleasant conversations just like with screwtape, and others here I really don't care for. I believe I was friendly with Junebug once but she's not looking for that from us, so why give it?

Quote
You don't have any call to be proud of your insensitivity and disrespectfulness if you're only like that towards people you don't like, or who you disagree with.  Because that comes across as at least partially hypocritical.  It means you're using your disagreement or dislike as an excuse to indulge being nasty.

Wrong. Why? Because I am also like this with friends and people I care about. Mostly I am friendly with them but if they do or say something that I don't care for, I will berate them. I will say some of the nastiest things ever to them; and if you think I will apologise afterward for it, you're mistaken.

I am who I am. Just like you are who you are, or anyone else here is who they are. But to put your mind at ease: I used to be a lot worse.

Quote
I don't actually know if this is the case.  If it isn't, then you have nothing to worry about.  But if it is, then you probably should spend some time thinking about it.

Um, no.

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on October 11, 2013, 10:17:22 PM
Whatever. Be the bad boy on the site. I don't care either.  &)

But little Nam, I haven't visited the 40's in a long time. I'll give you a hint-- the first president I remember was Kennedy. I may be old enough to be your mama. I have shoes older than you. Come to mama, baby. ;)

You remind me of someone at another website, though she's deeply Christian and apparently friends with Spike Lee. We had an indirect conversation once (me and Spike Lee).

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on October 12, 2013, 05:10:16 AM

God did not cause my suffering humans did. IMO, God gave my spirit the strength I needed to survive w/o becoming like Nam, hard and cold. 

It really doesn't matter to me anymore if Nam believes I am fighting cancer.  It makes no difference one way or another.  He just says that stuff to get a rise out of me which I do not intend on giving.   I could easily prove I have cancer but that would be stooping to a level I refuse to go. 

Nam made the remark that if someone says something he don't like he will go off and say nasty things yet criticizes me for my self defense which is not nasty at all. I did call him a pu$$y because I thought he was being 1.  Other than that I have been kind. 

This is why the bible is a disgrace.  It has made it much harder for people to believe in God. :(
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 12, 2013, 08:09:40 AM
So this "god" of yours let you get sick and suffer due to humans?

To quote The Hulk.
Quote
Puny god.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: jaimehlers on October 12, 2013, 01:26:03 PM
Okay, explain to me how you go from "people you don't like" to me liking every single "atheist"? I don't get that. Also, if you think I don't like certain atheists here, or elsewhere: you're sadly mistaken. I could name a list of atheists here I don't like but instead, I am going to list one: screwtape. I don't like him. We may agree on some issues, and I may applaud a comment or so once in awhile (I may have applauded Junebug once, who knows?) but I don't like him.

And he probably doesn't like me either. Most people don't. Doesn't mean I can't be friendly with them. Hell, I don't like GamerGirl (former member here sometimes at IGI, I believe) but I've had pleasant conversations just like with screwtape, and others here I really don't care for. I believe I was friendly with Junebug once but she's not looking for that from us, so why give it?
So, in other words, you're quite capable of being friendly with people you don't like or don't care for.  So, why?  If you don't like them, why bother being friendly with them?

Quote from: Nam
Wrong. Why? Because I am also like this with friends and people I care about. Mostly I am friendly with them but if they do or say something that I don't care for, I will berate them. I will say some of the nastiest things ever to them; and if you think I will apologise afterward for it, you're mistaken.
So, you're nasty to friends, and after you're done being nasty, you expect them to not care about the way you acted, without even a pro forma apology?  In other words, you dish out crap to them whenever you feel like it (and apparently, expect them to just take it, because if they respond, you'll dish out more), but you aren't willing to take anything from them without dishing out more of the same in return.  Sure seems like hypocrisy to me, because you expect other people to just take whatever you dish out, and if they retaliate in kind, you dish out more.  It's always other people who have to back off.

Quote from: Nam
I am who I am. Just like you are who you are, or anyone else here is who they are. But to put your mind at ease: I used to be a lot worse.
That doesn't put my mind at ease - it makes me wonder just how anyone ever put up with you in the first place.

Quote from: Nam
Um, no.
Well, I have better things to do than waste my time talking with someone who apparently thinks other people are the only ones who have to change.  Have a nice life.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: median on October 12, 2013, 01:40:24 PM

God did not cause my suffering humans did. IMO, God gave my spirit the strength I needed to survive w/o becoming like Nam, hard and cold. 

It really doesn't matter to me anymore if Nam believes I am fighting cancer.  It makes no difference one way or another.  He just says that stuff to get a rise out of me which I do not intend on giving.   I could easily prove I have cancer but that would be stooping to a level I refuse to go. 

Nam made the remark that if someone says something he don't like he will go off and say nasty things yet criticizes me for my self defense which is not nasty at all. I did call him a pu$$y because I thought he was being 1.  Other than that I have been kind. 

This is why the bible is a disgrace.  It has made it much harder for people to believe in God. :(


Personally, I have no problem believing (for the sake of discussion) that you are battling cancer. My aunt, my step mom, and myself have battled cancer and survived. Where was this 'God'? The same place as unicorns, fairies, and martians (nowhere). People who trust in a belief in God (which is all in their head) do not fair any better than people who do not. Just do a little research (disinterested shall we?) and you will see. This is why my friend Sean suffered with Leukemia for over a year (praying to "God") and still died. There is simply no good reason to believe this stuff. It is in fact WISHFUL THINKING and attempting to spin or rationalize it any other way is just personal dishonesty.


p.s. - The statement that the bible has made is "much harder" for people to believe in God is absurd on the whole. The bible is the cause of people's belief in God! Have you looked around lately? Just walk into a church and start talking to people, and ultimately you will find them reverting back to "the Word of God" as their foundation for belief.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: nogodsforme on October 12, 2013, 02:45:54 PM

God did not cause my suffering humans did. IMO, God gave my spirit the strength I needed to survive w/o becoming like Nam, hard and cold. 

It really doesn't matter to me anymore if Nam believes I am fighting cancer.  It makes no difference one way or another.  He just says that stuff to get a rise out of me which I do not intend on giving.   I could easily prove I have cancer but that would be stooping to a level I refuse to go. 

Nam made the remark that if someone says something he don't like he will go off and say nasty things yet criticizes me for my self defense which is not nasty at all. I did call him a pu$$y because I thought he was being 1.  Other than that I have been kind. 

This is why the bible is a disgrace.  It has made it much harder for people to believe in God. :(

Did you read my post, JB? I agree that it was human beings who hurt you.  If there had been a human being in your life who loved you, and knew about your suffering, do you think they would have let your pain go on until you were about to give up in despair? I don't think so. If they had loved you, and had the power to help you, they would have saved you. Immediately. Don't you agree?

But you maintain that god saved you, eventually, because he loved you. So, why did this god who loved you let people hurt you for so long? Did this god not know about your suffering, not have the power to help, or did this god just not care? And why is it that this god seems to prevent other people from going through what you suffered? Does this god like some people more than others?

Given that people are what they are, what is to stop people from doing more bad things to each other in the afterlife as well? How will god prevent them from being mean again? And, if he has the ability to prevent mean behavior in the afterlife, why not just prevent it now? Why allow people to make others suffer? If he could fix things in the afterlife so people don't suffer, there is no need for suffering at all, now is there?

Bring on the convoluted contradictory mysterious ways.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on October 12, 2013, 06:11:28 PM
Jaime,

Why is a hunter friendly with its prey? Answer that, and you have your answer.

Second: wrong. You don't like my response, walk away. Oh, but I could walk away too but it's more interesting not to.

Third: I ask that all the time. Most of their answers are: "I see the good in you", "just be more like you write[1]", you know repetitive shit like that. My aunt told me today she found a T-shirt in one of her catalogs that said, "I am who I am. Don't like it--too bad", I was the first person she thought of when seeing that. She was going to get it for me but she knows I don't wear t-shirts.

I'm not willing to change because I have already changed--why change more? Then I won't even know who I am. Fuck that.

-Nam
 1. in concern to my poems
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Zankuu on October 12, 2013, 08:00:30 PM
This isn't The Most Dangerous Game, Nam. You're using a keyboard to exchange words with people, not a scoped rifle to trophy hunt. You passive-aggressively told a cancer patient she should have cried herself to death. It probably takes the cake for the most insensitive thing I've read on this forum. Posters shouldn't have to just accept it and walk away; we should all be held accountable for what we type. Again, you passive-aggressively told a cancer patient she should have cried herself to death. That doesn't register as fucked up to you?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on October 12, 2013, 09:04:36 PM
I'm not using a keyboard.

What's "The Most Dangerous Game"?

Yes, it registers as "fucked up", and I think I slightly denoted that but I've also have noted in the past I'm indifferent to peoples feelings. That's not something I can change. That's like telling a schizophrenic, or a sociopath to stop being those things--they are those things: they can't help it. Sure they could take medication to suppress those things but they still are those things.

I am indifferent to people, live with it: I do.


-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Azdgari on October 12, 2013, 09:29:42 PM
Have you considered seeking medication for your mental illness then, Nam?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on October 12, 2013, 09:56:34 PM
Have you considered seeking medication for your mental illness then, Nam?

No. I used to be a drug addict in the mid 1990's. I don't want to go down that route again. I rarely, very rarely, even take aspirin.

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Zankuu on October 13, 2013, 01:56:11 AM
What's "The Most Dangerous Game"?
A great book with a pretty decent film adaptation from the 30's. You'd probably dig it.

Yes, it registers as "fucked up", and I think I slightly denoted that but I've also have noted in the past I'm indifferent to peoples feelings. That's not something I can change. That's like telling a schizophrenic, or a sociopath to stop being those things--they are those things: they can't help it. Sure they could take medication to suppress those things but they still are those things.
That's no excuse to be cruel to people, Nam. If you think of something hurtful to type you don't have to type it. Even you have a filter. Use it in sensitive cases like junebug. Set religion aside and what you're left with it a struggling human being. I find myself agreeing with you quite often because we have similar beliefs concerning religion. And you can be humorous at times. But man, do try and use an intuitive filter on the things you type. Telling a cancer patient you'd rather her be dead is too fucking much.

And the schizophrenics I've met don't define themselves by their illness, they get help for it.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on October 13, 2013, 03:48:55 AM
Nogods,

It's all about freewill.  I would rather have choice as to be controlled.  God does not control us but you are right we would be better if God did.  That would not be our success it would be God's and God's alone.  Nothing for the human race to be proud of.  It's really not that complicated.  W/o freewill we are puppets.

I don't think there is suffering in the afterlife because there is no need for it.  There will be no hunger, no pain, no dying, no money needed, we will just all be completely satisfied infinitely.  Our only worry, if you can call it that, will be what star or planet to visit today!!!  It is a reward for suffering through this life, IMO.

There were humans all around and they just let it happen.  I'm not saying God physically saved me I'm saying God spiritually saved me because I asked.  I gave my suffering to God and it was dealt with.  My spirit was strengthened!!!

In that "Chicken Soup" book I read many survivors were asked would you do it again and unanimously all agreed they would not care to go through cancer again but they wouldn't change who they became because of it.  Bad experiences can make us stronger, better human beings or it can make a- holes it is a choice! 

Now the way I see it I don't hurt anybody with my beliefs and I don't really understand the animosity towards me here.  Even Nam's cruel ways aren't as bad as some religious beliefs.  At least he just wants me dead not burning in hell.  I hate religion I respect the atheist for sticking it to religion.  I just wish you could see as clear as I do that religion is not God!!

Median,

I'm sure people believed in God before the bible.  The bible is what ancient folk thought about God. A lot has happened since then that proves the bible is not the word of God.  People cling to it.  I don't know why.  Pressure from society.  Even here on an atheist website I can't be accepted as what I am I have to be religious; I have to be a Christian. 

Peace and Joy,
JB
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on October 13, 2013, 04:01:04 AM
Angus and Alexis,

Wow you had to go back to February to find something to smite.  Well I'm certainly not going to start a whiny thread about it.  It wasn't my best argument.  I have learned a lot since then.  There's a couple of old posts I would smite myself for but I'm too busy posting new ones.  Maybe you could do me the favor and search them out for me.  Thanks.

JB
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Strawman on October 13, 2013, 05:03:36 AM
I've never told anyone this before but when I was around 16/17 and going through a period of distress I had a couple of auditory hallucinations and basically invented my own demi-god named Aruul. I can't remember what Aruul said to me but it was in a voice that was not my own and seemed to come from all around me. Oh, I do vaguely remember one that was something like, "The soul is cleansed in the rivers of the mind.", there were only four or five of them but they were all kind of poetic like that and all "came to me" within a few nights of each other while I was lying in bed. I remember struggling to stop myself just thinking up something and pretending it was Aruul. I would even say little pseudo prayers to Aruul, simple things like "please help me rest" if I couldn't sleep or "give me energy" if I was feeling washed out. And you know what, most of the time it worked.
I was already a staunch atheist at that time but the experience, the hallucinations in particular, had such a profound effect on me that I still fell back to asking Aruul for help up to about a year later.

I was not raised in any religion, yet when I felt helpless and alone I created the basis of my own original religion spontaneously. I don't believe there is anything supernatural to it, but I do think that something significant happened, I think I somehow tapped into my subconscious and a way to self-medicate. Aruul was little more than an imaginary friend, but I think he helped me to feel at ease and that I could regain control of my life.

I have no idea where the name came from, I have looked it up online and found nothing close to it.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Add Homonym on October 13, 2013, 05:44:09 AM
while I was lying in bed.

Say no more. Know what I mean? Say no more. Say no more. A nod's as good as a wink to a blind bat, eh?

I think a lot of people experience things in bed, due to a semi dream state.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 13, 2013, 05:55:12 AM
Wow you had to go back to February to find something to smite.

I enjoy lurking, you would be surprised how long i have read off this site.

Well I'm certainly not going to start a whiny thread about it.

Indeed, that would be childish.

It wasn't my best argument.  I have learned a lot since then.

What would your stance on staving children and god be now?

There's a couple of old posts I would smite myself for but I'm too busy posting new ones.  Maybe you could do me the favor and search them out for me.  Thanks.

If I find any, will do ;P.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on October 13, 2013, 09:24:00 AM
What's "The Most Dangerous Game"?
A great book with a pretty decent film adaptation from the 30's. You'd probably dig it.

Yes, it registers as "fucked up", and I think I slightly denoted that but I've also have noted in the past I'm indifferent to peoples feelings. That's not something I can change. That's like telling a schizophrenic, or a sociopath to stop being those things--they are those things: they can't help it. Sure they could take medication to suppress those things but they still are those things.
That's no excuse to be cruel to people, Nam. If you think of something hurtful to type you don't have to type it. Even you have a filter. Use it in sensitive cases like junebug. Set religion aside and what you're left with it a struggling human being. I find myself agreeing with you quite often because we have similar beliefs concerning religion. And you can be humorous at times. But man, do try and use an intuitive filter on the things you type. Telling a cancer patient you'd rather her be dead is too fucking much.

And the schizophrenics I've met don't define themselves by their illness, they get help for it.

I only have a filter for people who do not consistently beg to be belittled, ridiculed, insulted, and demeaned.

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: median on October 13, 2013, 03:10:28 PM


Median,

I'm sure people believed in God before the bible.  The bible is what ancient folk thought about God. A lot has happened since then that proves the bible is not the word of God.  People cling to it.  I don't know why.  Pressure from society.  Even here on an atheist website I can't be accepted as what I am I have to be religious; I have to be a Christian. 

Peace and Joy,
JB


This has nothing to do with the subjects we have been discussing! I have asked you, multiple times, for this "disinterested study" you have done - and still you provide nothing except irrational argument (aka - "I feel it, therefore God" or "I can't think of another way we got here, so therefore God..."). I'm sorry, but your reasoning is just fallacious (and that is not an opinion, it's just as much of a fact as mathematics is). Why is that? Why do you keep using irrational arguments to support your beliefs?


Do you even care whether or not your beliefs are true?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on October 14, 2013, 06:05:17 AM


Median,

I'm sure people believed in God before the bible.  The bible is what ancient folk thought about God. A lot has happened since then that proves the bible is not the word of God.  People cling to it.  I don't know why.  Pressure from society.  Even here on an atheist website I can't be accepted as what I am I have to be religious; I have to be a Christian. 

Peace and Joy,
JB


This has nothing to do with the subjects we have been discussing! I have asked you, multiple times, for this "disinterested study" you have done - and still you provide nothing except irrational argument (aka - "I feel it, therefore God" or "I can't think of another way we got here, so therefore God..."). I'm sorry, but your reasoning is just fallacious (and that is not an opinion, it's just as much of a fact as mathematics is). Why is that? Why do you keep using irrational arguments to support your beliefs?


Do you even care whether or not your beliefs are true?

I do not concede that my arguments are irrational.  They are certainly irrational to you I get that.  I gave you the short list of "disinterested" study and that's all I'm willing to give.  You're talking about picking through the last 25 years of my life and that's too much!!! 

Let's talk about feeling.  So if I feel pain is that not proof something is there, broken or infected?  If I feel happiness is it real or a delusion?  I feel my spirit in the same way I feel a pin prick.  It is not an emotion it is a physical feeling.  There is no way for you to dispute what I feel.  You can not believe it and that's ok.  My brain says it's rational to believe I am connected to a higher spirit.  It is my right as a human to explore my own thoughts and perceive things the way the brain I've been given analyzes and processes them. 

Yes I care if it's true but not as much as you.

I think I should also point out you have two tiny phrases out of tens of thousands of words and say I'm irrational.  You have not put my complete belief out there that you even understand what I'm saying.  Until I know you understand my beliefs I do not except your opinion that it's irrational seriously.  The second phrase in your opinion has been retracted.  I already admitted  it was weak so quit throwing it out there.   I know I could be wrong I hope I'm right I don't see anything irrational about that.  I would define irrational as thinking I knew some truth that is impossible to know.  You are the irrational one. 
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: median on October 14, 2013, 01:20:04 PM

I do not concede that my arguments are irrational.  They are certainly irrational to you I get that.  I gave you the short list of "disinterested" study and that's all I'm willing to give.  You're talking about picking through the last 25 years of my life and that's too much!!! 

Let's talk about feeling.  So if I feel pain is that not proof something is there, broken or infected?  If I feel happiness is it real or a delusion?  I feel my spirit in the same way I feel a pin prick.  It is not an emotion it is a physical feeling.  There is no way for you to dispute what I feel.  You can not believe it and that's ok.  My brain says it's rational to believe I am connected to a higher spirit.  It is my right as a human to explore my own thoughts and perceive things the way the brain I've been given analyzes and processes them. 

Your "right" to explore your thoughts has nothing to do with this discussion (this is a Red Herring fallacy). It is your interpretation that is in question. I have noted at least two logical fallacies you have attempted to use to bolster your belief in a God, spirit, afterlife, etc (here and elsewhere - including your debate with Anfauglir). Those are the Argument from Ignorance/Incredulity fallacy and Begging the Question fallacy (among others). Looking at nature/life and saying, "It's evidence of God!" is not evidence of God (anymore than it is evidence of invisible magic pink flying unicorns, blarks, aliens, Krishna, Zeus, or Pegasus). By your attempted definition of evidence every-thing is evidence of what you are trying to call "God" (including horrific atrocities) which makes your definition unusable for separating fact from fiction. You need specific evidence that cannot be multi-interpreted - not vague generalities. This is why we have the scientific method - to weed out bad interpretations and faulty thinking.

Now, earlier you said this:

Quote
I have said here a few times I will change my mind if proven irrational.

It's time to change your mind then and modify your belief (if you are honest enough to do so). Diagnosing a feeling, and then calling it "spirit" doesn't make it so (anymore than Christians claiming they feel Jesus/the Holy Spirit is a correct interpretation). Furthermore, (as you already admitted above) feelings like pain or happiness are physical properties - and those properties derive from a physical brain, and there is no good reason to think they are anything more than that. If you think they are (and you think your interpretation is the correct one) then the burden of proof is on you to 1) define the term "spirit", "God", etc in a meaningful way (i.e. - a way that has explanatory power) and 2) demonstrate it's existence (without using logically fallacious arguments). See Occam's Razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor) as well.

Btw, have you ever had a "feeling" about something (anything) only to later realize your feeling was mistaken, misinterpreted, or based upon a false assumption? Feelings (aka emotions) are notoriously unreliable for determining reality from fiction - which is why they need to be put it check by demonstrable evidence and sound reasoning.


Yes I care if it's true but not as much as you.

The amount that I care whether or not my beliefs are true is enough to avoid logical fallacies (fallacious arguments) and confirmation bias. So, you don't care about those things then? If you do, then stop using logically fallacious arguments as you have done in the past. Instead, modify your belief to fit the evidence - not the other way around as you have been doing. More importantly, admit when you don't know things (aka - admit your ignorance) when you don't have sound reasons.

I think I should also point out you have two tiny phrases out of tens of thousands of words and say I'm irrational.  You have not put my complete belief out there that you even understand what I'm saying.  Until I know you understand my beliefs I do not except your opinion that it's irrational seriously. 

This is yet another logical fallacy (called The Fallacy of Division). Strike 4. I do not need to know your "whole belief" (i.e. - all your beliefs or reasons) in order to point out the logical fallacies you keep trying to use in your arguments (the constituent parts of your beliefs) - as two fallacious arguments do not make a sound argument. Furthermore, I have NOT just taken "two tiny phrases". I have read many of your statements regarding your beliefs on WWGHAF and I have pointed out the specific logical fallacies that you continually try to use. For truths sake, take a Logic 100 course at your local community college or watch some YouTube videos on logic, b/c thus far your arguments for God, a "spirit", and the afterlife are irrational. 

The second phrase in your opinion has been retracted.  I already admitted  it was weak so quit throwing it out there.   I know I could be wrong I hope I'm right I don't see anything irrational about that.  I would define irrational as thinking I knew some truth that is impossible to know.  You are the irrational one.

You clearly do not know what "rational" means - as your definition doesn't come anywhere near it's actual terms. So this statement just demonstrates your ignorance on the subject. Furthermore, your saying I'm irrational doesn't make it so. You need to demonstrate it. Rationality has to do with the validity and soundness of arguments (proper reasoning in accordance with logic) and any child can learn what rationality is by taking any basic junior college course on logic or watching a few basic logic videos on YouTube (which clearly you have done neither). So this notion that you want to discuss reason, when clearly you don't even know what proper reasoning looks like, is quite ignorant of you to say. 


ra·tio·nal  adjective  ra-sh?-n?l[1]

: based on facts or reason and not on emotions or feelings
 1. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rational?show=0&t=1381774560 (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rational?show=0&t=1381774560)
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on October 14, 2013, 02:11:33 PM
median,

Give up. You can't prove her irrational to herself because she doesn't use definitions of words people agree universally on, she uses her made up definitions.

She's a nutjob. You can't reason with nutjobs.

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: median on October 14, 2013, 02:20:11 PM
median,

Give up. You can't prove her irrational to herself because she doesn't use definitions of words people agree universally on, she uses her made up definitions.

She's a nutjob. You can't reason with nutjobs.

-Nam


It's ok, I'm hard headed as they come (in the sense that I like to pound the reason hammer) and it's fun lol
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on October 15, 2013, 03:32:19 AM
yelp nut job indeed.  crazy as they come.   :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: 

You don't have a big enough hammer to crack this nut ole wise one.  :P

 
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 15, 2013, 05:25:42 AM
yelp nut job indeed.  crazy as they come.   :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: 

You don't have a big enough hammer to crack this nut ole wise one.  :P
 

*sarcasm detected*

Anyway, on-topic.

I would say god is a disgrace to the bible as the bible is said to be "the origin of all morals and good and stuff" (Bullshit anyway...), while god is represented as an evil ass-hat who enjoys killing everything because he stuffed up.
Not to mention that he knew he would stuff up too.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: median on October 15, 2013, 10:11:41 AM
yelp nut job indeed.  crazy as they come.   :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: 

You don't have a big enough hammer to crack this nut ole wise one.  :P

That's pretty dishonest considering earlier you stated you would change your mind if shown to be irrational, which has been noted many times in response to your arguments. This kind of intellectual hypocrisy is quite common among you religious folks. Statements like this indicate that you clearly do not really care if your beliefs are actually true. Like most God believers, you just want to be comfortable in your assumptions and feelings - instead of being rational. Sad.
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on October 15, 2013, 11:09:28 AM
As I said: her own definitions.

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: nogodsforme on October 15, 2013, 03:16:24 PM
Okay, I give up trying to reason anything out here. Let's just play with some woo instead .  &)

How about a simple question for any god-believer on this site: let's assume there is a god of some sort. There are people who do not know whether or not there is a god. If, as the OP states, the bible is not useful, and assuming no other religious text is either, how does a person find out about god? Wait for god to communicate his existence, or look around at the universe for him?

If the answer is "look around at the universe" than every person is going to come up with something different, because what each person "sees" in the universe depends on that person's background, culture and experience. In other words, people's experiences in the world are subjective, not apparently coming directly from any one source, ie god.

One person sees warfare, destruction and suffering. The next person sees immense expanses of dead, empty space and environments actively hostile to life. Another sees survival, honesty and hope. Yet another sees kindness, beauty and love. Still another sees scientific order, natural laws and rationality. And so on.

Is god an objective being or the sum total of everything humans "see"?
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: junebug72 on October 17, 2013, 07:25:06 AM
yelp nut job indeed.  crazy as they come.   :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: 

You don't have a big enough hammer to crack this nut ole wise one.  :P

That's pretty dishonest considering earlier you stated you would change your mind if shown to be irrational, which has been noted many times in response to your arguments. This kind of intellectual hypocrisy is quite common among you religious folks. Statements like this indicate that you clearly do not really care if your beliefs are actually true. Like most God believers, you just want to be comfortable in your assumptions and feelings - instead of being rational. Sad.

You have no [absolute] truth to prove my beliefs irrational.  That's the sad part.  As Morgan Freeman So eloquently put it; "the debate is not likely to end anytime soon", Through the Wormhole.  With that in mind your claim of my dishonesty is moot.

I'm leaving the main discussion zone to Nam.  My place is in the Shelter and my cancer support group I've found here.

See Ya
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Azdgari on October 17, 2013, 08:40:51 AM
Imagine that.  You went into the argument/debate part of the forum, and found argument/debate.  Geez, people are just so MEAN!
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 17, 2013, 08:53:58 AM
You have no [absolute] truth to prove my beliefs irrational.

You have no [absolute] truth to prove your beliefs are rational, burden and proof and what not.

I'm leaving the main discussion zone to Nam.  My place is in the Shelter and my cancer support group I've found here.

See Ya

Hit and run eh?...
"My god makes me have meaning and is good and stuff"
*insert debate here*
"Wah, you meanies and Nam are debating in the atheist forum about my god, i'm leaving".

This seems to occur too often...
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: Nam on October 17, 2013, 10:26:42 AM
yelp nut job indeed.  crazy as they come.   :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: 

You don't have a big enough hammer to crack this nut ole wise one.  :P

That's pretty dishonest considering earlier you stated you would change your mind if shown to be irrational, which has been noted many times in response to your arguments. This kind of intellectual hypocrisy is quite common among you religious folks. Statements like this indicate that you clearly do not really care if your beliefs are actually true. Like most God believers, you just want to be comfortable in your assumptions and feelings - instead of being rational. Sad.

You have no [absolute] truth to prove my beliefs irrational.  That's the sad part.  As Morgan Freeman So eloquently put it; "the debate is not likely to end anytime soon", Through the Wormhole.  With that in mind your claim of my dishonesty is moot.

I'm leaving the main discussion zone to Nam.  My place is in the Shelter and my cancer support group I've found here.

See Ya

It's funny, a religious person looking for Cancer support from atheists. What, your god doesn't support you?

Moron.

-Nam
Title: Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
Post by: median on October 17, 2013, 06:34:02 PM
You have no [absolute] truth to prove my beliefs irrational.  That's the sad part.  As Morgan Freeman So eloquently put it; "the debate is not likely to end anytime soon", Through the Wormhole.  With that in mind your claim of my dishonesty is moot.

I'm leaving the main discussion zone to Nam.  My place is in the Shelter and my cancer support group I've found here.

See Ya

Your spray and run-away approach doesn't mean you're right, nor does it show I'm wrong. It just shows that you're scarred, and are refusing to amend your irrational beliefs. I've pointed out multiple logical fallacies in your arguments and you haven't done anything to correct those (except to admit that you don't care that much if your beliefs are true - aka you just want to feel comfortable). Well guess what? That's the difference between you and I. I actually care.

Now, I don't need any "absolute truth" to prove that your arguments are irrational or false (just like you don't need absolute "truth" to show Christians are wrong about the bible). All I need is sufficient evidence or reasoning and that has already been shown here. Absolute knowledge is a changing of subject b/c there is no requirement for that and no one has that when it comes to these questions.

Again, I've noted many logical fallacies you have tried to use in your arguments (in spite of your bunk claim that you wanted to "reason"). No, you didn't want to reason. You wanted to RATIONALIZE and spin your assumed beliefs (and your self induced interpretation of "feelings") in order to make yourself feel good. Well, I'm sorry that you can't admit your own error but this doesn't change the fact that your arguments are irrational, no question (as I already noted on multiple accounts). Your rebuttal above is irrational as well (and in error) b/c I noted and demonstrated both your logical fallacies and your intellectual dishonesty (i.e. your unwillingness to own up to your fallacious arguments and your refusal to actually want to reason, as you previously claimed).

Perhaps one day you will actually get honest with yourself and others when it comes to these questions.