whywontgodhealamputees.com

Main Discussion Zone => MailBag => Topic started by: naemhni on August 28, 2012, 07:44:50 PM

Title: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: naemhni on August 28, 2012, 07:44:50 PM
I think you are asking the wrong question.  It would be like asking God to restore your crushed car after a tree fell on it.

If God healed even one amputee, no one would have to "live by faith" anymore.  Even when Jesus did miracles in His day though, there were still unbelievers.

Anyhow, I think this is a more appropriate line of questioning - and I'd be interested to hear what the leading televangelists and especially the hard-core fundamentalists (Rodney Bell, the late  Jerry Fawell, Bob Jones III, etc) would have to say.

For a background on this email, my wife, who just turned 54 in January 2012, had a stroke in June.  Ever since then, she has just laid there, eyes open and that is it.  No interaction at all.  She never cheated people, smoked, did drugs, hurt people - unlike some I know that by my eyesight far more deserved a stroke or catastrophic illness more than she.

I know a lot of people are praying for [name] and would be disappointed or even angry if they found out I was not one of them.  I am hard time praying for [name]'s recovery based on this:

It is easy to be a Christian and praise God when things are going great or even ok.  Not so easy when you have been unemployed for three years and see better Christians (one is a Gideon) who have more talents, more skills, are smarter who have been unemployed longer.  When I finally took a job at 54 years of age working at Wendy's for $7.25 an hour, 20 hours a week with no benefits, of course people thanking God had answered my prayers (their prayers) and provided me that job.  I went and got that job.

Then maybe God did get me a job, the best job I ever had in my life in February.  Though ok, I never ever thanked Him for it or gave Him credit for a lot of reasons.  Then [name] had her stroke.

So a lot of people are praying for her.  But not me.  I look and I see so much going on in this world, every day there are murders and murders in Atlanta, absolutely senseless killings.  The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that are sending home hundreds (thousands) of dead and forever maimed soldiers.  Some certainly are Christians, some are not.

I am having trouble believing God will specifically answer prayers for [name]'s recovery because Muslims, Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists, Indians in India, people in "apostate" churches that really are not saved, 7th Day Adventists, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses all pray for their loved ones to be healed.  Obviously, some recover and some do not.  Since all these people are praying to the "wrong" God, then supposedly those who recover, are not recovering because of God healing them?

Then there are faithful, Bible believing Christians praying for their loved ones.  Some recover, some do not.  When they do recover, it is always God who healed or restored them, never the doctors and the medical treatment.  Of course, regardless of God, had proper medical treatment not been administered, I think we can safely say they would not have recovered.

I was "raised" in a very strict fundamentalist church after coming from an "apostate liberal Protestant church".  Yet I have seen things in the fundamentalist churches that would surely turn God's stomach.  A huge church here in Atlanta will encourage us to support missions that cost $3,000 per person to send someone 8 hours to London, then 8 hours to Bosnia for two weeks before making the 16 hour return trip.  Yet when a lady in the church needed help who lived a distance away from the church, the first thing the "minister" said was "Brother she lives an hour away".  I guess had she lived in Bosnia, it would have been no problem.  Or the church asking asking asking for us to give give give to get the church out of debt due to offerings being down due to so many unemployed - yet calling a staff member up on the platform to give him a bonus check for his 20th anniversary of "service".  Were we giving money to the church to get the church out of debt or give this staff person, who had a job, benefits, vacation, etc an unneeded bonus check, especially since the church was hurting so badly financially?

And when I look at missionaries constantly asking for money because they are $20,000 in debt, why isn't God answering those prayers, needs?  After all, as the church continually asks for money, even if you are unemployed, sinking in debt, they keep telling you "God will meet all your needs".  Of course, you have to "trust Him".

Lastly, I look and see people like Creflo Dollar, Richard Roberts, Joyce Myers, Paul and Jan Crouch, "Bishop Weeks", the list could go on for sometime, all making theirselves millionaires selling a gospel that says God will bless bless bless you.

Seems to me, good Christian, backslidden Christian, person of the wrong faith, ungodly people like Howard Stern, Bill Clinton, Hugh Hefner, again the list could go on for a long time, all have lives that are great.  It just seems God blesses blesses blesses some and well, the rest of us, pooh on us.  Yet we are constantly taught to believe Jesus loves me because the Bible tells us so.

If you have some answers, please share, especially in the light of God not answering prayers for so many others, yet people who are not so good Christians or of the wrong faith or just outright God haters like Hugh Hefner and Howard Stern, they seem to have it all.

Again, I apologize for the intrusion but if I dared send this to the church I used to attend, they would probably kick me out and ask me never to return.  Which probably wouldn't affect me anyhow as I do not see myself ever going to any church again.  I know, I know, I will still one day have to bow and declare Jesus is Lord of All.  Just not likely again in this lifetime.

Thank you,

[name and contact information removed]
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: jetson on August 28, 2012, 07:48:26 PM
Hi.  Come join our forum and you can be free to talk openly about all of this religious stuff.  You won't find a more delightful pack of heathen, devil-worshiping, baby-eating, spawns of satan anywhere else!   ;D
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: on:bread:alone on August 28, 2012, 07:51:47 PM
^it's true, we really do eat babies.
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: on:bread:alone on August 28, 2012, 08:04:14 PM
also, to add my two cents to the cionversation, there's a pretty simple answer for why some prayers are "answered" and some aren't, regardless of your depth of faith or even whether or not you have any to begin with... the answer: god doesn't answer prayers because he isn't there. now, i'm supposed to come up with some kind of proof for why god doesn't exist and back up my claim, but in all honesty, there are people here who are far more educated and better versed at that sort of thing, and frankly, i don't really feel that i need to defend my position. to me, it's common sense. god isn't real, that's why some shit happens and other shit doesn't.

if that doesn't cream your twinkie, try easing into the idea with this one: god (if he is there) just plain isn't listening. why should he? think of it... here we are, this random sceince experiment called life. take a rock and throw it in a petry [sp?] dish with water and put it under a lamp. life will grow. so here we are, this fungus, this bacterial growth, here we are developing this ego that says that there must be some kind of intelligent designer, and that furthermore, we, with all our rape and murder and bigotry, we are in it's favor. if i were god, i'd have turned my back on humanity a long time ago too. though i think fire would have worked better than a flood.

at 54, you've probably had a good long life of this christian propaganda shoved down your throat, so it might not be so easy to seperate from it. but i've found that the harder you shove something down someone's throat, the more likely they are to either swallow and love it, or regurgitate it entirely. you want my opinion? all that time you spend on your knees talking to the sky could be much better spent improving life for yourself. you don't need god to make things better.
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: jetson on August 28, 2012, 08:27:44 PM
o:b:a, great avatar!
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Nick on August 28, 2012, 09:28:48 PM
Do you want the truth?  There  have been over 3800 different gods over history.  I take it you don't believe in most of them or any of them but your own.  See we are alike only we, atheists, just take it one god further.  It's an easy step.  You put your finger on it when you pointed out the hypocrisy of preachers getting richer and richer.  It is all about power and money.  Always has been.
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: kin hell on August 28, 2012, 09:44:00 PM
I am so very very sorry for your position.
Your wife was not ignored by your god, the same as those who appear blessed are not anything but apparently randomly lucky.

No mate . I empathise with your loss. I recognise the seeming injustice of her being rewarded for a good life in such a tragic way.
I truly wish you the best possible outcome in your future, I can only imagine how destroyed I would be in your circumstances.

The one small advantage I would have would be the knowledge that this is not god's work. There is no god, and the insane injustice, illogic and carelessness is made understandable with that truth.

We live without gods in a cold and totally uncaring universe.
Only our lives and shared love give any meaning to it.

I cannot offer any heavens celestial rest home, there is none.
But the cares and pains and concerns of this random world stop dead.

I wish I could offer a softer grander "the universe loves you" illusion, that illusion is what this world's multitudinous religions are based upon.
It is illusion.

I offer you long distance humanist empathy, as one monkey observing the pain of another and wishing I had magical powers to "make it all better" for you.

But I won't lie to you.

Please join this forum, we don't need another potential de-convert.
Your beliefs are your own, and no doubt, they'd be extremely rigorously examined here, but it sounds as though you might just need us.

The greatest sensorial aspect of becoming aware that gods are a human invention, is the clarity, and the instant awareness that all the convoluted twisted double-thinking necessary for "god" to make sense, is just dropped.

This won't help you with the tragedy of your wife's state, but it will remove the illusory cause of resentment that is gutting you at the moment.

God wasn't careless, your wife was not less blessed, life is random.

You have my sincere best wishes.

Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: dadamsjr on August 29, 2012, 12:24:17 AM
There is no doubt in my mind there is a God.  Just a God I do not comprehend.  I was raised in a "liberal, apostate Protestant" church, then got involved in the extreme fundamentalist movement in my 19 - 26 years old.  Moved on to being conservative, still believing.  Still believing these past few years even though the college I attended from 2007 - 2012, it seemed they were intent on "proving" evolution which would then "prove" there is no Creator.

Sorry, but there is way too much evidence there is a Creator.  Maybe He did not create the Earth in a literal seven days, maybe the Earth is much older than 6,000 years - but if the Bible is "true" and He created a "Man", this "Man" was not the form of a new born baby but a form that even though a few seconds "old" would have the appearance of being (in our measurement) 19 - 20 years old.

But just because there is a Creator, doesn't mean to me anymore He is as caring and loving as He declares Himself to be.  Just look at what He did to Job.  We are taught He knows everything from the beginning of time until the end of time.  So He knew what Job's response would be.  Yet He allowed Satan to abuse Job (who He loved) to prove a point that did not need proving.  I don't think any rational human being would allow someone they "loved" to be abused by their enemy just to prove that person would still love them.  I just want to rip the book Job out of the Bible.

Anyhow, my initial question and "reasoning" currently is that people of all faiths pray for their loved ones to recover.  Some recover, some do not.  According to the fundamentalist theology, God only answers the prayers of Christians.  If that is correct, then the ones of the "incorrect" faiths recovered not because God "healed" them.  And for the ones of the "correct" faith who did recover, they would not have recovered regardless of "answered prayers" if they had not received proper and timely medical treatment.  If you are bleeding profusely and don't bandage your wound, all the prayers in the world are not going to prevent you from bleeding to death.

Finally, I have had "answered prayer" in the last few months.  I was asking God why He blinded Paul which brought about Paul's conversion and yet did not blind others which would have resulted in their conversion.  Seemed pretty unfair to me that Paul got a "huge red light" and thus became a Christian and others who could / would have became Christians if they had only had the same "huge red light" did not get such.  God "told" me three things.  1.  He did not have to answer me.  2.  However He would.  3.  He knew Paul would remain faithful despite horrible persecutions, stonings, whippings, beatings etc.  Someone else that would have received the "huge red light" would have quit later, so that is why God "chose" Paul and not the others.

You will never convince me there is no God.  Clearly there is.  What I am having issue with is His personal involvement in the lives of Christians.  Ok, I have not led a "good" Christian life - done many things that were deliberate violations of good Christian conduct.  But I have seen good solid Christians have troubles troubles troubles.  Where is their "life abundant"?  Then as I said, there are some "Christian" leaders who use the Bible to enrich theirselves.  Making millions and lavishly spending it on theirselves while others go without.  And God seems to turn a blind eye.

So many questions, sure wish there were some real answers.

In closing, we will all one day bow and declare "Jesus is Lord of all".  We can do it here on this Earth "voluntarily" or we can wait until Judgment Day and do it "involuntarily".  Right now, I am in the group that will be doing it on Judgment Day.  How can I love a God that could step in and doesn't?

dadamsjr@live.com
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Anfauglir on August 29, 2012, 04:14:05 AM
Hiya dadamsjr, welcome aboard.

Can I first say how sorry I am to hear about your wife.  I'm going through similar things in my life at the moment, so I can empathise.

Can I ask you a couple questions please?

Sorry, but there is way too much evidence there is a Creator. 

Can you tell me what you think the best piece of evidence is?  Perhaps more importantly, what makes that piece of evidence, evidence for the god of the Bible as opposed to any other god?

God "told" me three things. 

You've put "told" in quotes, which suggests to me it was not a direct form of address, using audible words.  Can you expand please on exactly how you were "told" those things?

In closing, we will all one day bow and declare "Jesus is Lord of all".  We can do it here on this Earth "voluntarily" or we can wait until Judgment Day and do it "involuntarily".  Right now, I am in the group that will be doing it on Judgment Day.  How can I love a God that could step in and doesn't?

There was a very interesting thread recently about whether we could or would have the choice of bowing.  But what I am more interested in is why you still believe that we will someday bow to Jesus.  How do you find it possible to believe in the Jesus portrayed in the Bible, yet not accept that he is as good as he says?  I mean....if you don't believe that the biblical Jesus is all he says he is, then what reason do you have to believe that he actually exists at all?  Is it not possible that (while there may be a god), the Bible is completely wrong and there was no Christ at all?  I just can't fathom how its possible to believe that the god of a particular holy book exists, but NOT believe that the holy book gives an accurate picture of that god!

All the best.
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: dadamsjr on August 29, 2012, 05:11:06 AM
The book that explains is best for me is "Gleanings from Genesis" by Arthur Pink.

The Earth is too intricate to not have a Creator, not to mention the Universe.  There is no way life "evolved" and became increasingly complex to the levels it is today.  No more than the bldgs in our major cities just rose without having creators.

As for being "told", it was not audible nor a dream, it was just thoughts(?) that were impressed into my mind, thinking.  I am confident it was "God" answering those questions.

All I saying is, I still believe the Bible, I just don't understand it.  Just as I believe when I cross a huge bridge in my car, I believe that bridge is going to support my car though I do not understand it.  Or the complexities of a jet aircraft or the television and even though I am a computer technician, the fine details of how this laptop works.  I "trust" all these devices and yet can not explain how they work.  (Off subject - some day I would like to see the creation of a fax machine from start of an idea on paper to the finished product sitting on the shelf in a store.  Think about how complex a fax machine is.  It literally blows my mind).

Years ago a message was on the passage in the Bible where it says "The fool has said in his heart, there is no God".  The  speaker said that Man says there is no God so he can avoid accountability.  I think there is a lot of truth to that.

But the debate (for me) is not whether or not there is a God or if the Bible is true; the debate is "Why doesn't God heal amputees?"  That is the wrong question.  We (again, I do not understand) are supposed to "live by faith".  If God healed ONE amputee, there would be no need to "live" by faith".  It is as unrealistic to ask this question as to ask why He doesn't undo a crushed car or restore a collasped building.  The question is (I repeat) since all faiths pray for recovery of their loved ones, the ones that recover of the "incorrect" faiths are not recovering because God intervened, so why do the faith healers always credit God for healing those who recover of the "correct" faith?  If they are so confident God "heals", then why give them any medical treatment at all?

Many people are praying for my wife, many people have prayed for countless others.  Some will recover, some will not.  Everyday the newspapers are filled with obituaries of people who died younger than 50.  Answered prayer for healing from God is not consistent.  Why does He choose some and not others?  Especially when some of the others who live long healthy lives are outright liars, thieves, all while being in church every Sunday morning, all spiffed up and looking mighty "Christian".  I personally have met some of these people.  One person who "stole" another man's wife (twice! long long UNBELIEVABLE story you would think I made up . . .  ) actually told me I should forgive him just like Jesus did for stealing the other man's wife.  LOL.  Let me wrong you and when you get angry, tell you "Brother, even though I stole from you (a large amount, over $20,000), you need to forgive me and move on".  What about the part that says I should make right my wrong, THEN ask your forgiveness.  Based on his reasoning, if I robbed a bank, the jury and judge should forgive me since Jesus has.

This is getting off topic.  God exists.  The Bible is true, I don't understand it, I am angry at a God that COULD recover my wife and doesn't, angry at a God that lets people like the several rich televangelists become millionaires.  Since He COULD give them health or other issues (I am not asking for a bolt of lightening from the sky) but doesn't, they just prosper prosper prosper, it has confused me.  Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so . . . .  easy words, not so easy to believe any more.  As I told my children, love is an ACTION word.  If I say I love you but don't provide for you when I CAN, then my actions demonstrate a contradiction.

David JR
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: kin hell on August 29, 2012, 05:34:33 AM
I have so much more respect for the feelings you have for your wife, than for the feelings you present as the only evidence that your god exists.

Regarding your questions.
Regarding every variation of them.
Regarding every confusing observable illogic necessarilly swallowed for your god to exist.

There is one answer that immediately answers all the questions with no further input necessary.

There is no god.

So any question you may raise about your imaginary god's ridiculously ambiguous and inexplicable nature is answered.

Any other belief system is you indulging in your feelings.

And truthfully dadmsjr, you are at the wrong forum to be making unsubstantiated claims about god.   
This is an atheist forum.

I respect the love you have for your wife.
I feel for your loss.
I understand that you have feelings about your god that arise from the seemingly random nature of his blessings.
I feel sorry that you are so incapable of even glimpsing reality, that you are doomed to be asking inevitably futile questions.

Your god does not work in mysterious ways.

Your god is an artificial creation from the minds of bronze age and you have been conditioned into unquestioning belief.

Why does your god consistently act like everything an omnibenevolent god shouldn't be?
Because there is no god. 

Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: dadamsjr on August 29, 2012, 05:51:48 AM
I did not come here to offend the atheist.  Or try to change their minds.  I have not "shared" my faith for years.  I only said to try to support there is no God based on "Why God does not heal amputees?" is not sound reasoning based on the reasons I have already stated.

If you are open to it, at least read Pink's "Gleanings from Genesis".  That "book" (Genesis) is too well written to be a fable or an elaborate work of fiction.  And though you and others ask hard questions about other parts of the Bible, ones I can not answer and sometimes ask my self, it is true.  Things are progressing just as the Old Testament prophets and John in the Book of the Revelation said they would.  There is an eternity for us once we die.  Unfortunately for me, it is not going to be "heaven" for me - at least right now.  Though I certainly want to avoid an eternity in Hell, but not for the "right" reason - because I want to spend eternity with the Lord.  No more than I pay taxes for the "right reason" - I don't pay taxes to support our government - I pay them to avoid the consequences of not paying them.  Off topic.

Again, my being here was not to convert anyone from being an atheist nor to become one myself.

David JR
dadamsjr@live.com
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Brakeman on August 29, 2012, 05:59:01 AM
(http://www.atheist-community.org/images/cartoon/sS23161081310l25112323Jt.jpg)

Does this fit?
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Brakeman on August 29, 2012, 06:08:24 AM
I did not come here to offend the atheist.  Or try to change their minds. ..
Again, my being here was not to convert anyone from being an atheist nor to become one myself.

David JR
dadamsjr@live.com

David, If you are right, and jesus does exist, Don't you care enough about our fate to explain our error so we can escape the eternal pits of hell? Doesn't god "command" that you witness to all those who seek him? I seek him, but must use my wits to make sure I have the right god with the right instructions.  So does not your beliefs mean that you must share with us to keep from being punished by god for disobedience in the same way as Jonah?
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: dadamsjr on August 29, 2012, 06:36:08 AM
Kind of hard to "witness" for  God I am angry at.  I wish I could back up, back up, back up and undo some of the deliberate choices I did that have put animosity between God and I.  They often say in church when God seems like a "million miles away", it wasn't God who moved. . . .

And years ago, I did study how the Word of God came to be.  I read books on both sides - ones that supported that it is truth and ones that supported that it was totally man-made.

Jesus is quoted (in the Bible of course) that not one jot or tittle will pass away.  It would be wrong(?) of God for there not to be an accurate dependable Word of God for us to have and then to hold us accountable in Eternity for not following His "Word".

When I was in the Navy, there were several conflicting "faiths" on our ship.  Everyone said everyone else was wrong and they were right.  So I read the ENTIRE Bible on my own (except for Daniel). Started with the Book of Acts (which gave the history of how the early church formed) and then the rest of the New Testament.  I then read the Old Testament (which reading the New Testament had prepared me for).   After I finished, I can now say why I BELIEVE this or that.  I just don't understand some things so much as I thought I did before.

Some of what I "don't understand" has nothing to do with God or religion or Christianity - just the randomness and unfairness of life.  I was unemployed three years - three LONG years.  During which I saw employed people lose GOOD jobs due to stealing from their employers.  One is so ridicuously funny - 8 people on the loading dock at a electronics retailer came up with a plan to give their friends large screen televisions by getting their friends to buy a smaller item, then when they picked up the smaller item, they would throw in a large screen tv.  They had stolen about 80 tvs before they got caught.  What IDIOTS.  I could see maybe 3 or 4 or even 10 tvs.  But 80?  Did they not think someone somewhere was going to notice such a huge discrepancy in the inventory?  All 8 got fired.  I immediately went and applied - after all there were now 8 openings . . .   LOL    Sadly, I didn't even get a call . . . . .   Where I work (and evidently this is in a lot of places these days) people retire with nice generous benefit the NEXT day (or week) are back at work in the SAME job, now collecting the retirement and then the SAME or increased pay.  Yet we have people who have no job or jobs that pay wages so low with so few hours and NO benefits.  Like HELLO, let the retired person get out of the way and let an unemployed or underemployed person have that job.

Anyhow, that is off subject.

The intricacies of this Earth's existence is proof enough for me there is a Creator.  No way it "just happened by chance".

But then by me stating this in an atheist forum will bring people saying I am here to convert the atheist.  No, I am here to say AGAIN, the logic since God doesn't heal amputees, there either is no God that is real or He then doesn't heal at all is unrealistic.  God exists.  He is just hard (for me) to comprehend right now unless I just close my eyes and say like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, "I believe, I believe, I believe".

David JR
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Anfauglir on August 29, 2012, 07:08:13 AM
Sorry, but there is way too much evidence there is a Creator. 

Can you tell me what you think the best piece of evidence is?  Perhaps more importantly, what makes that piece of evidence, evidence for the god of the Bible as opposed to any other god?

The Earth is too intricate to not have a Creator, not to mention the Universe.  There is no way life "evolved" and became increasingly complex to the levels it is today.  No more than the bldgs in our major cities just rose without having creators.

Unfortunately, that doesn't answer either of my questions.  Saying "there is no way life evolved" is not an answer - which particular part of evolutionary theory have you examined and found to be incorrect?
You also did not answer why - even if there HAD been a creator - it automatically makes your god the one true god.  Unless...

That "book" (Genesis) is too well written to be a fable or an elaborate work of fiction.

Too well written?  Detailing a god who offer animals as a helpmeet and bosom companion before deciding to create a female?  That skips over all of the "how"?  That is cobled together from at least two sets of writings, that describe different polytheistic gods?  That draws heavily from earlier Mesopatamian mythology?  Does Pink's book cover all of these questions, or does it rather prefer to ignore them and instead try to show how the second-hand fables it contains MUST be true? 

The answer, of course, is that it does none of that.  It is a book designed for the believer, for sunday sermons.  It says nothing about the origins of the Bible, and instead starts from the assumption that it is true, and simply muses on the story it has to tell.  So I'm sorry, but it hardly does a credible job of supporting your particular chosen creation myth.
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: The Wannabe on August 29, 2012, 07:10:11 AM
So many questions, sure wish there were some real answers.

These are hard questions, dadamsjr, and thankfully there are real answers, though you may not find them immediately comforting. 

You are frustrated with the Christian concept of god[1] because the reality of non-discriminatory suffering on this planet is not compatible with the existence of an omniscient, omnipotent, and all loving creator[2].  Humanity is the constant victim of not only its own psychopathic cruelty, but the indifferent cruelties of nature as well.  We are plagued by a myriad number of diseases, our coasts are ravaged by devastating tsunamis, and the innocent are just as likely to suffer calamity as the wicked, yet your religions dogma would have us believe that this is all part of a benevolent deities divine plan for his beloved creation.  This is called the problem of evil, and it has driven many former adherents of faith to find refuge in the logical consistency of atheism.

What happened to your wife is terrible, and i can't imagine the magnitude of the grief you must be experiencing at this time.  I'm helpless to do anything but offer my most sincerest condolences, to let you know that as a fellow human being i empathize with your suffering in some small way.  Because the truth of it is, life is unfair.  And it's not unfair because some deity loaded the dice against us, it's unfair because the universe that we inhabit is utterly indifferent to the human condition.  Once you take "God" out of the picture, things begin to make sense.  We don't fall ill because "God" in his wisdom and grace ordained it, it is because in this world we coexist with billions of pestilential parasites, viruses, and bacteria, and the longer we live the greater our chances of contracting some debilitating condition.  Individual prosper or meet misfortune in disproportion to their conduct or merit not because sociopathic Yahweh has a nasty gambling problem, but because life is not intrinsically just and shit happens, constantly. 

In fact, if the god of the bible did exist, he himself should be put on trial for his numerous transgressions against humanity.  He commits mass murder and insists upon genital mutilation in Genesis[3], in Joshua he demands genocide[4], he accepts children sacrifice without a word in Judges[5].  The new testament is no better as far as human sacrifice is concerned.  What an utterly barbaric projection of human cruelty. 

The complexities, grandeur, and tragedy of reality are much better explained, not to mention rationalized, from a godless perspective.  Evolution is the foundation for all our recent advances in modern medicine and agriculture.  The evidence for the theory is overwhelming.  Religion and morality are simply human abstractions that have assisted in maintaining civilization and the survival of the species.  Now that science has come along and has begun to slowly unravel the universes mysteries, the human construct of religion has lost its purpose, and a good chunk of its influence.  Even the question of origins , once religions firmest stronghold, is beginning to truly be illuminated for the first time thanks to empiricism and the scientific method.  Lawrence Krauss wrote a book titled A Universe from Nothing, where he argues that due to the peculiar working of quantum mechanics the universe may have sprung from nothing.  Whether or not his theory is the theory, it's a hell of a better explanation than the allegorical gibberish genesis has to offer.     

In the end, i greatly admire your honesty and courage in sharing your story here, dadamsjr; and I'm only spewing all this atheistic rhetoric your way because i believe you would be rid of much unnecessary anguish and mental frustration if only you would discard this vacuous mythology and fully embrace reality for what it is.  Nothing more, nothing less.  But if all you need now is safe place to vent, and some sympathetic shoulders to lean on, i completely understand.  Again, i am so very sorry to hear of your wife's condition, and I hope you find a half way decent job.  God knows its hard to find work in this economy, if you'll pardon the expression.  I sincerely wish all the best to you and yours.   







     
 1.  Rightfully so.
 2. It is my opinion that whoever wrote the book of Job alluded to this, but belief in Yahweh was nearly inescapable in that culture at that place in time so the best the author could do was chalk suffering up to god being a total dick.
 3. Genesis 6:7 and 17:10-14
 4. Joshua 11:20
 5. Judges 11:31-40
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: jetson on August 29, 2012, 07:19:52 AM
Welcome David!

Sounds to me like you are a deist - basically someone who believes there is a creator, but that creator does not get involved with it's creation on a personal level.  Does that sound accurate?

If so, you are in good company with the likes of some of the founding fathers of the U.S., for example.

I myself, being a strong atheist, could only imagine that if there is a creator of the universe, then this creator cannot possibly be YHWH, god of the Bible.  Too much cruelty in the world to believe that a loving god is running the show.

Anyway, glad to see you on the boards.  Take your time, get to know some of the regular members, and join in on the interesting, and sometimes heated discussions.

Jet
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Hatter23 on August 29, 2012, 07:32:26 AM
A very basic question; do you understand people lie, exaggerate, and hallucinate?
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Nam on August 29, 2012, 07:35:50 AM
I think this dadamsjr has more secondary thoughts than I do, which is saying something. Dude, i'm not one to talk but try to keep to one thought at a time.

-Nam
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: screwtape on August 29, 2012, 08:12:53 AM
Just look at what He did to Job. 

Some people take the point of Job to be that people should trust yhwh and be loyal to him no matte what.  I think there are two other points that make more sense. 

The first is that you cannot trust yhwh.  In the story, yhwh and the jews had a deal which is often referred to as the Old Covenant.  They were to worship yhwh and only yhwh, make the proper sacrifices to him and abide by his rules, and in return yhwh would make them propserous and protect them.  That was the deal.  The first verse of Job says Job upheld his end of the bargain:  "This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil."[1]

And yhwh broke the covenant because a satan dared him to.  He withdrew his protection and allowed all manner of suffering to befall Job.  And in the end, he demanded Job's servility anyway and got it through bullying and threats.  This is not a kind god or a loving god or a god you can count on.  So in that light, Job is a cautionary tale, a warning that it is best to not make a deal with yhwh. 

The other plausible point is one that addresses theodicy.  Theodicy questions the existence of god due to the obvious presence of suffering.  To paraphrase, "why do bad things happen to good people?"  The bible attempts to answer this in several ways. 
1. you are being punished by yhwh for your sins
2. your sinful actions cause suffering for others
3. sometimes suffering has a positive benefit
4. Job.

Job essentially punts on the question.  It says "you don't get any explanation, so STFU and quit complaining."  People see nature as cruel and random and try to make sense out of it. They often look to religion to do that.  But in Job, it says yhwh is as capricious and random as nature.  It says, there is no answer.  It says, god is an enigma. 


You will never convince me there is no God.  Clearly there is.

That is not clear to me.  Moreover, even when I believed in god, it was not clear to me.  Everyone kept telling me there was, and to have faith and to look for signs.  And I did.  But I never saw god.  It was always a struggle for me.

You should not write off possible answers to your question without exploring them.  You might ask, what would a universe look like with an all powerful god?  What would it look like without one? What do we see in the universe now?

How can I love a God that could step in and doesn't?

Indeed.
 1. Job 1:1
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: One Above All on August 29, 2012, 08:17:03 AM
BM
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: kin hell on August 29, 2012, 09:09:28 AM

The intricacies of this Earth's existence is proof enough for me there is a Creator.  No way it "just happened by chance".

I'm sorry David, but a watchmaker is not needed for those intricacies...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcAq9bmCeR0  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcAq9bmCeR0)
You ask those here, who are opened minded enough, to give some time to Arthur Pink's book   ...OK, I'll go look for it now, but in the meantime I ask you to take 10 minutes to watch the video I've included >with an open mind<.   It is incontrovertible evidence that complexity can arise from simplicity and time over enough iterations.
Please consider (I mean really think) just what that means when the strongest feelings you state as proof of your god is your awareness how complex the universe is.

Regarding open mindedness.

Atheists here will say, give us evidence and we'll look at it, and if it stands up to scrutiny, then of course we'll have to change our position.
Theists unfortunately consistently and repeatedly just ignore any evidence that threatens their "god-security-blanket" no matter how obvious and incontrovertible the evidence is.

You are describing exactly that theist deliberate blindness when you write.

God exists.  He is just hard (for me) to comprehend right now unless I just close my eyes and say like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, "I believe, I believe, I believe".

David JR

You've just forgotten to add  "with your fingers in your ears, eyes closed, loudly chanting lalalalalalalala!"  Just joking mate.



Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Graybeard on August 29, 2012, 09:34:14 AM
I think you are asking the wrong question.  It would be like asking God to restore your crushed car after a tree fell on it.
The car crushing I'm not too sure about; a leg or an arm is a little more personal. Catholics particularly constantly go on about people being "miraculously cured"; look at the shrine at Lourdes and similar places.

Quote
If God healed even one amputee, no one would have to "live by faith" anymore.  Even when Jesus did miracles in His day though, there were still unbelievers.
It may seem that if God really did cure these people at these places of pilgrimage, then faith would not be required, but in fact, it is the faith in believing that it was God who cured them that keeps them going.

The odd healed amputee (overnight and in a locked room) would do wonders for church attendance. But it has never happened and never will.
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: screwtape on August 29, 2012, 09:51:41 AM
yeah, good point GB.  To get back to the question of wwgha, let me just post my boilerplate reply.  You (dada) seem to have misunderstood the point of the question:

There is a certian type of xian who attempts to justify his or her god beliefs by claiming that people are miraculously healed of various afflictions by divine intervention.  The afflictions may include cancer, diabetes, coma, heart conditions, tooth decay, halitosis, spastic colon, etc.  We frequently hear anecdotes about how some church group prayed for some guy and the next day he was completely healed. 

But there are several problems with this kind of reasoning.  First, data shows many of these types of afflictions sometimes "clear up" without any kind of prayers.  It seems to be a natural response or a misdiagnosis.  Second, people of all religions make the same claims.  And last, there is a whole class of ailments that are never, ever cured by prayer or naturally. 

People never regrow lost limbs.  Lost eyes never regrow in the empty sockets.  Retarded people never gain normal mental capacity. Alzheimers and Dementia sufferers never recover.  Old people never rejuvenate. 

This has clear implications about a god that supposedly heals people.  It leaves you only a few conclusions about such a god.

I hope that helps clear it up.
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: DumpsterFire on August 29, 2012, 10:58:32 AM
But then by me stating this in an atheist forum will bring people saying I am here to convert the atheist.

I think that you, David, might actually be the one seeking conversion, but you may not know it yet. Every question you have asked and every problem you are finding with your faith indicates that you have started on the path to atheism. Your OP is exactly the type of thing I would have written had I discovered this site back when I first started on this path myself.

One of the following statements is true concerning a god/creator as reconciled to the realities within this world:

1. He exists and created everything, but does not intervene or is not concerned with the trappings of human life. We are merely one infinitesimally small part of his enormous universal creation and undeserving of any special consideration.

2. He exists and does directly intervene in our lives and world, but does so in such a random, haphazard fashion that it is impossible to determine that he does anything at all, or indeed if he even exists. In causing and/or allowing such vast and indiscriminate suffering to occur, he is either horribly cruel or utterly indifferent to the human condition, of which neither option could be considered good or worthy of worship.

3. He does not exist.


If you really think it through, its got to be one of these three options.

I understand how difficult it is to abandon a belief that has been such an integral part of you for your whole life, so perhaps option 1. above is the way you are leaning. Just know that a universe under a 'hands off' type of god would be indistinguishable from one with no god. As strange as it may seem to you now, I[1] find option 3. the most comforting, and certainly the most likely. It takes away all the excuses and illogical BS that you must accept on faith as a believer.

I suspect that you have already known this for quite a while, but are just not quite ready to go 'full atheist' yet. You are certainly farther along than I was when I first began to question the core of my faith.

I wish you and your family the best of luck, but I won't be praying for you.
 1. and the majority of the folks on this forum, presumably
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: jaimehlers on August 29, 2012, 11:58:42 AM
dadamsjr:  I'm firmly convinced that there's far more to the universe than any religious creation story can ever hope to explain.  To be honest, I view those stories as similar to "what shapes do clouds make"?  People tried to make sense of the world and how it came about, so they imagined how things might have happened based on their experiences and imaginations.  It is little different than when a person looks at clouds and uses their experiences and imagination to come up with what the cloud looks like.  The only difference is that we can see the clouds change over time, whereas Earth, and the universe for that matter, change far more slowly.

To a person caught in an earthquake, it must have been terrifying, like a mighty being was shaking the earth in rage.  Without knowing about plate tectonics and fault lines, how could they ever expect to come up with the real answer as to why the ground sometimes shook and cracked?  It's not as if anyone could feel the Earth moving except when there was an earthquake, even though it was (and is) moving all the time.  Ancient peoples were ignorant, but generally not stupid.  Stupid people would not have even attempted to explain why things like earthquakes happened.

People tried to explain things in the only way that made sense - that someone was causing these events to happen, the same way a bed doesn't shake unless someone shakes it.  They had no way to tell otherwise.  It's only been within the past few hundred years that we've developed methods and technology that let us find out the real reasons why these things happened.  We still wouldn't have gotten there if people hadn't started going against the teachings of the dominant religions and philosophies in order to really find out why things happened.

The thing you should consider is that if a religion's creation story can be wrong, what else could be?
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: dadamsjr on August 29, 2012, 02:55:50 PM
I don't think anyone here can "prove" that the planet Neptune exists - though we all probably believe it exist based on someone somewhere telling us there is a telescope somewhere that someone we have never eve met looked through and saw it.

Same thing with a lot of what we believe.  I have never been to Mount Vernon, yet I believe a man named George Washington existed.  I don't think there is one person here who can even name the person who did a portrait of George Washington.  Yet we believe without "proof" when we are taught in history he existed.  Going back further in time there are other historical figures we believe existed because that is what we have been taught.  (I am not saying there is no "proof" that George Washington existed - I am saying we accept it as fact without demanding that "proof").  Just like the Leaning Tower of Pisa - I have never seen it and with today's Photoshoppingchoppingcropping, any "picture of just about anything could be an entire fake creation . . . .

Maybe not a sound argument for the existence of a Creator, just saying with  the ability of Hollywood today to put out movies that seem actually real life, who knows what is true and what is a lie.  Remember the movie "Capricorn One"?  And there are some who deny that the United States ever really went to the moon.

I don't care if you do not believe in God.  I don't care if you think creation could come about by chance instead of a Creator.  I know in my heart and confused mind there is a God.  Just having a difficult time how He blesses blesses blesses some and well others, pooh on them . . . . .
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Hatter23 on August 29, 2012, 03:09:26 PM

Same thing with a lot of what we believe.  I have never been to Mount Vernon, yet I believe a man named George Washington existed.  I don't think there is one person here who can even name the person who did a portrait of George Washington.  Yet we believe without "proof" when we are taught in history he existed.  Going back further in time there are other historical figures we believe existed because that is what we have been taught.  (I am not saying there is no "proof" that George Washington existed - I am saying we accept it as fact without demanding that "proof").  Just like the Leaning Tower of Pisa - I have never seen it and with today's Photoshoppingchoppingcropping, any "picture of just about anything could be an entire fake creation . . . .


The George Washington Argument again?

This is a tired old argument,

I've seen the death mask of Washington

I've seen painting done from life.

I've seen the house that he had built.

I've seen documents in his handwriting

I've read documents from his enemies, those neutral to him, and those that admired him. They agree on most facts, even if their interpretations on them vary

We have land records.

We have bills he paid.

We have 500,000 artifacts from his boyhood home( http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2008/07/the_500000_artifacts_of_george_washington.html )

We have a vest he wore

The false teeth he wore

We even have him(his grave)

So comparison is ludicrous.
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: JesusHChrist on August 29, 2012, 03:14:20 PM
You can prove Neptune exists yourself. Simply buy a telescope, learn how to use it and point it at the sky. Done.

You can visit Mt. Vernon. You can travel to Italy.

What do I need to do to see this god fellow?

Sure, many things can be faked. Can and are faked. Humans are a gullible lot. Given we are gullible, the critical thinker's alarm bells go off when someone tells us a tall tale and oops! there is no way to verify the tall tale.

What are the odds Neptune exists vs. a magic rabbi drove demons into pigs and marched them into the sea?
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Zankuu on August 29, 2012, 03:18:33 PM
I don't care if you do not believe in God.  I don't care if you think creation could come about by chance instead of a Creator. I know in my heart and confused mind there is a God.  Just having a difficult time how He blesses blesses blesses some and well others, pooh on them . . . . .

Hi dadamsjr. Isn't it a bit contradicting to say you're both confused and certain about something? For example:

"My understanding is fuzzy and unclear about x, but I know and am certain of x!" <-- That doesn't make much sense.

When you say "I know in my heart", what does that really mean? Your heart is nothing more than a muscular organ that pumps blood. You might as well be saying "I know with all my pancreas there is a God". I've found that when people use that expression they are acknowledging they don't actually have any evidence and it boils down to hoping or wishful thinking. You'll never hear someone with  ample knowledge on a subject say "I know in my heart". Instead they'll careful lay out their facts and evidence.
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Boots on August 29, 2012, 03:36:49 PM
There is no doubt in my mind there is a God.  Just a God I do not comprehend. 

That does not compute.  You don't doubt there's a being you don't understand.  ????

Quote
Still believing these past few years even though the college I attended from 2007 - 2012, it seemed they were intent on "proving" evolution which would then "prove" there is no Creator.

Evolution has already been proven.  Many, many times.  And that, in and of itself, does not prove there is no creator.  So wherever you got that idea, it's wrong.

Quote
Sorry, but there is way too much evidence there is a Creator.  Maybe He did not create the Earth in a literal seven days, maybe the Earth is much older than 6,000 years - but if the Bible is "true" and He created a "Man", this "Man" was not the form of a new born baby but a form that even though a few seconds "old" would have the appearance of being (in our measurement) 19 - 20 years old.

Evidence such as what?  And I reject that the bible is "true", in quotes or not.  Because if it was true then yhwy is an evil, egotistical, genocidal, vengeful, petty bully.

Quote
But just because there is a Creator, doesn't mean to me anymore He is as caring and loving as He declares Himself to be.  Just look at what He did to Job.  We are taught He knows everything from the beginning of time until the end of time.  So He knew what Job's response would be.  Yet He allowed Satan to abuse Job (who He loved) to prove a point that did not need proving.  I don't think any rational human being would allow someone they "loved" to be abused by their enemy just to prove that person would still love them.  I just want to rip the book Job out of the Bible.

But you believe the bible is true.  THIS is the god you believe in???  No wonder you're struggling.  It's called "cognitive dissonence."

Quote
Anyhow, my initial question and "reasoning" currently is that people of all faiths pray for their loved ones to recover.  Some recover, some do not.  According to the fundamentalist theology, God only answers the prayers of Christians.  If that is correct, then the ones of the "incorrect" faiths recovered not because God "healed" them.  And for the ones of the "correct" faith who did recover, they would not have recovered regardless of "answered prayers" if they had not received proper and timely medical treatment.  If you are bleeding profusely and don't bandage your wound, all the prayers in the world are not going to prevent you from bleeding to death.

and yet there is no statistical difference between those who pray and are healed and those who do not pray and are healed (and the revers).  What does that tell you?

Quote
Finally, I have had "answered prayer" in the last few months.  I was asking God why He blinded Paul which brought about Paul's conversion and yet did not blind others which would have resulted in their conversion.  Seemed pretty unfair to me that Paul got a "huge red light" and thus became a Christian and others who could / would have became Christians if they had only had the same "huge red light" did not get such.  God "told" me three things.  1.  He did not have to answer me.  2.  However He would.  3.  He knew Paul would remain faithful despite horrible persecutions, stonings, whippings, beatings etc.  Someone else that would have received the "huge red light" would have quit later, so that is why God "chose" Paul and not the others.

Can you differentiate how god "told" you these things from your imagination?

Quote
You will never convince me there is no God.  Clearly there is. 

You will never convice me there is a god.  Clearly there is not.  This world behaves exactly as if there is no diety.  Once we unlock the mysteries of abiogenesis, the only hidey-hole god will have left is the creation of the universe--in other words, he will have zero signifigance in our daily lives.  Or, we'll all finally realize he just ain't there.

Quote
What I am having issue with is His personal involvement in the lives of Christians.  Ok, I have not led a "good" Christian life - done many things that were deliberate violations of good Christian conduct.  But I have seen good solid Christians have troubles troubles troubles.  Where is their "life abundant"?  Then as I said, there are some "Christian" leaders who use the Bible to enrich theirselves.  Making millions and lavishly spending it on theirselves while others go without.  And God seems to turn a blind eye.

Why can't you take the next logical step??  This is true because HE'S NOT THERE, NEVER WAS.  Just throw away the shackles of your upbringing (like I did) and embrace the non-superstitous truth, brutha!!

Quote
So many questions, sure wish there were some real answers.

There are.  Answer: there are no gods.  There, that was easy!

Quote
In closing, we will all one day bow and declare "Jesus is Lord of all".  We can do it here on this Earth "voluntarily" or we can wait until Judgment Day and do it "involuntarily".  Right now, I am in the group that will be doing it on Judgment Day.  How can I love a God that could step in and doesn't?

dadamsjr@live.com

Bullshit.  There is at least one person that will not bow--me.  If gawd finally shows up, I'will give him the finger on both hands, and say "Hey, where thE fuck have you BEEN?!?!"
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Garja on August 29, 2012, 03:40:44 PM
Welcome dadamsjr! 

My sympathies with your current family situation, I certainly do not envy you.  I wont jump on the offensive here too much, but think about it for just a second:

Does the world as you see it right now make more or less sense with a God figure?  Stated another way; with all the issues you are personally enduring and that you see going on around you to seemingly "good" and "bad" people alike regardless of their faith - does the existence of a God make any kind of logical sense?

I have no desire to try to deconvert people who are honestly benefiting from their religion (and when it does not negatively effect others), but yours seems more like a millstone tied around your neck- Its not providing you comfort, it seems to have you blaming yourself (partially) for your wife's condition.

(http://imgur.com/RJxIg.jpg)

(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSvgBSewS7oj6UEvdIRZmnSrgljEqwHvBLpI6lqHUwrj8U7AO0V&t=1)
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: jaimehlers on August 29, 2012, 03:44:34 PM
dadamsjr: There's instructions online on how to find Uranus and Neptune using a portable high-power telescope.  It's not something a person has to "take on faith".  Any scientific discovery is like that - the evidence is available for anyone to examine; it's not something they have to just take on faith.  The same thing goes for George Washington, any other historical figure, or any place for that matter.  Certainly, evidence gets lost to time, but a person can examine whatever's available rather than just taking it on faith that such-and-such a person actually existed.

Now, regarding what you know, your heart, that is, your emotions, don't know anything.  They're how you feel, not what you know.  Any knowledge based off of a feeling is suspect, because you can't verify what gave you the feeling.  In fact, many people who feel God in their hearts are actually creating an emotional projection of their concept of God which they can then feel in their hearts.  It's what proves the existence of God to them.

Here's something to consider.  You know God exists because of what you feel in your heart.  When you asked God in the past some advice or what he thought, it felt like the answers were coming from inside you, correct?  So that served to confirm to you that you really were feeling God in your heart.  Yet now, you have a question that you are not getting an answer to.  You still feel God in your heart, but no answer is forthcoming on this thing you're having so much trouble with.  Is that a fair assessment?
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: dadamsjr on August 29, 2012, 04:10:25 PM
I didn't say there was no proof - I merely said there are a lot of things we believe because that is what we have been told.  I have never seen the proofs you have yet I still believe George Washington existed.

I have never seen Neptune. I have seen pictures someone said was of Neptune.  I have seen pictures of large telescopes that took those pictures.  But again with Photoshoppingcroppingchopping, a picture no longer really proves anything.
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: jaimehlers on August 29, 2012, 04:55:28 PM
There's instructions online of how to use a telescope to spot Neptune.  That is to say, with a typical off-the-shelf telescope.  If you wanted to actually go see it in greater detail, there's public access telescopes that are significantly stronger than anything you can buy in a store.
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: The Wannabe on August 29, 2012, 05:02:51 PM
Sorry my friend, but i'm going to have to hold your feet to the fire a little bit here.  Metaphorically speaking of course.  ;)
Sorry, but there is way too much evidence there is a Creator. 

Could you please summarize for us, in your own words, what this evidence for a Creator is?

The intricacies of this Earth's existence is proof enough for me there is a Creator.  No way it "just happened by chance".

Could you kindly explain for us what these intricacies are, and how they point to a Creator?
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Brakeman on August 29, 2012, 05:23:35 PM
Quote
You will never convince me there is no God.  Clearly there is. 

You will never convice me there is a god.  Clearly there is not.  This world behaves exactly as if there is no diety.  Once we unlock the mysteries of abiogenesis, the only hidey-hole god will have left is the creation of the universe--

Nope, we pretty much have that one sewn up now. Watch this excellent video by Stephen Hawking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-jQUHUF1MU
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Samothec on August 29, 2012, 05:31:50 PM
dadamsjr,
I have moments when my mind tries to backslide into belief but I fight against it because it offers no real comfort. I realized quite a while ago that either god did not exist[1] or that god is malevolent.

A malevolent god can love us but will show it by making us suffer. The good that happens is only to make the suffering more exquisite. This is why the bible can be so easily misinterpreted. This is why god does not show himself and causes natural disasters. This is why evil people succeed while good people suffer.

If I ever do succumb, I will probably start a church espousing these beliefs. Do they sound like beliefs you want to embrace or would you prefer to learn how the world exists without gods?

We turn to god when we have no control in our lives. We see patterns where there are none because that did not harm us as we evolved. I cling to these facts because it is better for me and other people that I don't believe.

What is best for you and your wife?
 1. and a benevolent god can not exist
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: on:bread:alone on August 29, 2012, 05:45:00 PM
What do I need to do to see this god fellow?

option a:  buy a much stronger telescope.
option b:  try checking under the couch and between the cushions.
option c:  strangle a puppy, then flop around on the ground while speaking gibberish, and when you're done, go to your bathroom and turn off all the lights and say "jehova" to the mirror five times. if you do this correctly, god will be sitting in your favorite comfy chair when you're finished. but if you do this incorrectly, YOU WILL BURN FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER!!! (true story)

(edited because my stupid fucking computer cut me off halfway through being an asshole.)
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Hatter23 on August 29, 2012, 08:32:20 PM
I didn't say there was no proof - I merely said there are a lot of things we believe because that is what we have been told.  I have never seen the proofs you have yet I still believe George Washington existed.


The issue is you are trying to draw an parallel between something that has vast quantities of proof and none.

It isn't genuine.
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Emily on August 29, 2012, 08:46:05 PM
Welcome to the forum.  :)

I don't think anyone here can "prove" that the planet Neptune exists - though we all probably believe it exist based on someone somewhere telling us there is a telescope somewhere that someone we have never eve met looked through and saw it.

This is a very poor argument. First of all, as others have said, there are telescopes that people can look through and see Neptune. I have one myself. My telescope features a GPS device, and something called a GoTo Mount, which, when using the location of the telescope (which is what the GPS does), depending on the day of year, and time of the night, the telescope will go right to Neptune.

Here's my telescope, BTW: http://www.telescopes.com/telescopes/reflecting-telescopes/ioptronsmartstargn114gotogpsreflectortelescope.cfm

So for only around 400 bucks, you too can see Neptune. I will admit that because I live in a large city I have not seen Neptune, but if I wanted too I could take a 45 minute drive to the country side and view all the planets.

Quote
Same thing with a lot of what we believe.  I have never been to Mount Vernon, yet I believe a man named George Washington existed.  I don't think there is one person here who can even name the person who did a portrait of George Washington.  Yet we believe without "proof" when we are taught in history he existed.

Another pool argument, because we have historical documents that President Washington existed. I don't accept this fact on faith alone, I know there was a man who at least went by the name George Washington.

Quote
I don't care if you do not believe in God.  I don't care if you think creation could come about by chance instead of a Creator.  I know in my heart and confused mind there is a God.  Just having a difficult time how He blesses blesses blesses some and well others, pooh on them . . . . .

You're believing in god on faith alone, and nothing else. You are believing this because this is how you were either raised, or you were taught it by someone else and they convinced you there is a god.

However, the problem lies that there is absolutely no proof for god, like there is for George Washington, or Neptune. If someone came up to me in the street and said there's a planet called Zork between Mars and Pluto (which would be visible through my telescope) and I went to the country with my telescope and saw no planet Zork, why should I believe this person?

If someone tells me there is a god and I ask for proof, but this person admits to nothing having proof, but only having faith, I see no reason to believe this person. If this person was a new-earther, then I could simply counter his argument and show proof that can easily by found on in a textbook that this person is completely wrong. This person might not believe me, no matter how hard I try to convince him, but some peoples' minds just cannot be changed, no matter how much proof they are shown that goes against their believes.

If this person is an old-earther, and doesn't believe in a 6000 year old world, but believe that the universe is 14 billion years old, the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, believe in abiogenesis and evolution, but still believes firmly in a god that set everything in motion, I'd still ask for proof for this god. And they person can give me bible verses all he/she wants too, but that isn't too convincing of an argument for an atheist like myself. I either want to see this god for myself, or have trustworthy documents that show this god's existence. So far, there are none that point to the fact that the god of the bible exists.

All the proof christians have for their god is in the bible. But to use the bible to support the bible is called circular reasoning, and I know enough not to fall for that as proof.  Some christians try to use the whole 'creation ex nihilio' or, something from nothing argument being, "How did the universe come from nothing?". Well, I can easily counter with the fact that that same argument can be applied to the god named YHWH. If something cannot come from nothing, and god is a something, how did he come about? But when it comes to how the universe was formed 14+ billion years ago, I don't know for certain. All I know is that a singularity expended, generated intense heat, the four forced known as gravity, the weak force, the strong force, and electromagnetism formed, and through a series of particle/anti particle annihilation more particles and anti-particles were formed, and kept expanding into the universe we live in today.

I don't believe god did it. I just don't. To conclude he did is called God of the Gaps, which substitutes god into the missing pieces that scientific theories have. And another thing, a scientific theory, is not like the word theory used in every day English. Here's a good definition of the scientific meaning of the word theory:

Theory
A scientifically testable general principle or body of principles offered to explain observed phenomena. In scientific usage, a theory is distinct from a hypothesis (or conjecture) that is proposed to explain previously observed phenomena. For a hypothesis to rise to the level of theory, it must predict the existence of new phenomena that are subsequently observed. A theory can be overturned if new phenomena are observed that directly contradict the theory.
 
http://wmap.gsfc.nasa.gov/site/glossary.html

It works nicely. Perhaps you knew the scientific definition of theory. I am just tossing that out there in case you didn't.

I would really love to see how you can to your conclusion that there is a god. You said that there is no doubt in your mind there is a god (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,23672.msg528946.html#msg528946), so I'd like you to place no doubt in my mind as well.

However, I don't want to be preached too. I don't want to be told to look at proof in the bible, for reasons I mentioned above.[1]. No offense, but I would hope that you are honest enough to have some doubt in your mind, because you should. Because looking at the world we live in shows there is no design for it. Science has proven how a universe can evolve without a god. Science has proven how life can evolved without a god. Science doesn't seek to disproof god, but only to show how what we know about our existence can appear through natural processes.

Many people are praying for my wife, many people have prayed for countless others.  Some will recover, some will not.  Everyday the newspapers are filled with obituaries of people who died younger than 50.  Answered prayer for healing from God is not consistent.  Why does He choose some and not others?  Especially when some of the others who live long healthy lives are outright liars, thieves, all while being in church every Sunday morning, all spiffed up and looking mighty "Christian".  I personally have met some of these people.  One person who "stole" another man's wife (twice! long long UNBELIEVABLE story you would think I made up . . .  ) actually told me I should forgive him just like Jesus did for stealing the other man's wife.  LOL.  Let me wrong you and when you get angry, tell you "Brother, even though I stole from you (a large amount, over $20,000), you need to forgive me and move on".  What about the part that says I should make right my wrong, THEN ask your forgiveness.  Based on his reasoning, if I robbed a bank, the jury and judge should forgive me since Jesus has.

This is getting off topic.  God exists.  The Bible is true, I don't understand it, I am angry at a God that COULD recover my wife and doesn't, angry at a God that lets people like the several rich televangelists become millionaires.  Since He COULD give them health or other issues (I am not asking for a bolt of lightening from the sky) but doesn't, they just prosper prosper prosper, it has confused me.  Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so . . . .  easy words, not so easy to believe any more.  As I told my children, love is an ACTION word.  If I say I love you but don't provide for you when I CAN, then my actions demonstrate a contradiction.

Your 'prayers' may seem to be answered, but I believe there is a non-religious reason why this is. Perhaps through pro-active measures you took youself to get the results you wanted. Perhaps through a well trained physician, etc.

It's true, though. Answered prayers through god is not consistent. And as I christian I questioned why. After all, even Jesus said, according to the bible:

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Matt 7:7

and

...with God all things are possible
Matt 19:26

and

And what you ask in my name I will do it... If you ask anything in My name I will do it.
John 14:13

and

And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up.
James 5:15

It's pretty clear that if you pray to Jesus, god's son, then he should be constant. When looking at how god answers prayer in the bible I see how he cannot be constant. I came to this conclusion only through studying god's word (the bible), yet he is very much inconstant.

Not knowing your wife's condition, I think prayer, while it is beneficial to helping you feel better about her condition, will go nowhere. No offence, BTW.

My father is a pastor (Pentecostal), and there was a time after I left the church that he and his congregation prayed for me. Long story short, I got associated with the wrong crowd and did some pretty heavy drugs, like coke and crack. Just strung out all the time. He had people pray for my to be sober, but I got sober without the help of prayer, because I was unhappy with the way I was living my life. His prayer didn't help me. I took pro-active measures to get sober.

Whatever is asked for in prayer, more natural means seem to make the most sense. Like, is someone is sick, that person prays for healing while at the same time seeing a good doctor, I am positive that person gets better because he/she saw a doctor who has studied the affliction through years of medical school. And if that person doesn't get healed it's only because medical science hasn't figured out how to help that person completely, even though a doctor is doing all he/she knows and can.
 
I am glad to see that your mind is confused towards the reality of god's existence. Hopefully on this forum you'll see how god isn't real.  Just be honest with yourself.

-M
 1. the circular reasoning argument
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: shnozzola on August 29, 2012, 08:51:31 PM

For a background on this email, my wife, who just turned 54 in January 2012, had a stroke in June.  Ever since then, she has just laid there, eyes open and that is it.  No interaction at all.  She never cheated people, smoked, did drugs, hurt people - unlike some I know that by my eyesight far more deserved a stroke or catastrophic illness more than she.
I'm so sorry to hear about your wife.  My father had a brain stem stroke and the chaplain met us at the hospital.  My mom had already given permission to give the clot-busting drug tissue plasminogen activator (tPA) and it saved his life.  He has come back slowly but gotten better.  No matter what happens, tell your wife you love her everyday.  Hopefully you can get to the point where you take her outside - that seems to help.  Don't give up hope - it takes time.  I hope you have good caring doctors.
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Nam on August 29, 2012, 09:01:40 PM
I didn't say there was no proof - I merely said there are a lot of things we believe because that is what we have been told.  I have never seen the proofs you have yet I still believe George Washington existed.

There's plenty of evidence, by many countries, that show George Washington existed. I think your argument would hold more water if you used an example of a person that's main source of information came from one place and not many. See, the problem with the existance of Jesus comes from one main source. All other sources are after that main one. None before. Not so with Washington.

Quote
I have never seen Neptune. I have seen pictures someone said was of Neptune.  I have seen pictures of large telescopes that took those pictures.  But again with Photoshoppingcroppingchopping, a picture no longer really proves anything.

Idiotic.

-Nam
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Ivellios on August 29, 2012, 09:43:33 PM
You say that one has to take it on "faith" that George Washington and Neptune exists, because people are gullible and will believe anything. Yet, you do not seem to notice the irony in the belief in your god. There's more proof that Santa exists than your god. Did you also know that over a thousand gods alledge to have created the Earth. Just because they, thru thier holy books says they did, does that necessarily make it so?
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Azdgari on August 29, 2012, 09:43:33 PM
Even if you havn't checked yourself, the fact that people can go and check for themselves discourages lying; the words of others become more reliable.
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: kin hell on August 29, 2012, 09:54:44 PM
There are levels of belief

George Washington exists even now, he is living on Neptune, and he watches everything you do.

He is powerful enough to create the entire universe, and in his loving "perfect god" status, he created Adam and Eve.
He blesses some, but not everyone.

His purpose in creating this whole vast universe, is to bring us, his pet project, to know and love him.

We have absolutely no purpose other than to have faith that he exists (even though he hides with the skill of a god) and to love him.

That's right, absolutely no purpose but to have faith and to love god.

The reason George (the father) hides on Neptune is he cannot show himself to us because that will remove the need of faith, and worse (so the theologians say) will remove our freewill.
Of course if that was the case, one might wonder how satan ever rebelled (permanently in god's direct company, still exercises freewill).

It also seems to be contradicted by the bible old and new when god was guest appearing (for one night only  in Mary's case) regularly.

Of course one should not question the contradictions like a rational honest or intelligent human.

Much better to just believe in George (the unknowable) and accept the illogic of George (the mysterious) while loving him (no matter what evil he allows) like a loving sheep (the hilarious).

Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Nam on August 29, 2012, 09:58:52 PM
I like sheep, they are cuddly.

-Nam
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Anfauglir on August 30, 2012, 03:31:38 AM
Sorry my friend, but i'm going to have to hold your feet to the fire a little bit here.  Metaphorically speaking of course.  ;)
Sorry, but there is way too much evidence there is a Creator. 

Could you please summarize for us, in your own words, what this evidence for a Creator is?

I don't think he wants to answet that question, Wannabe.  I asked yesterday, and he has ignored it:

Sorry, but there is way too much evidence there is a Creator. 

Can you tell me what you think the best piece of evidence is?  Perhaps more importantly, what makes that piece of evidence, evidence for the god of the Bible as opposed to any other god?
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Boots on August 30, 2012, 07:58:31 AM
There are levels of belief

George Washington exists even now, he is living on Neptune, and he watches everything you do.

He is powerful enough to create the entire universe, and in his loving "perfect god" status, he created Adam and Eve.
He blesses some, but not everyone.

His purpose in creating this whole vast universe, is to bring us, his pet project, to know and love him.

We have absolutely no purpose other than to have faith that he exists (even though he hides with the skill of a god) and to love him.

That's right, absolutely no purpose but to have faith and to love god.

The reason George (the father) hides on Neptune is he cannot show himself to us because that will remove the need of faith, and worse (so the theologians say) will remove our freewill.
Of course if that was the case, one might wonder how satan ever rebelled (permanently in god's direct company, still exercises freewill).

It also seems to be contradicted by the bible old and new when god was guest appearing (for one night only  in Mary's case) regularly.

Of course one should not question the contradictions like a rational honest or intelligent human.

Much better to just believe in George (the unknowable) and accept the illogic of George (the mysterious) while loving him (no matter what evil he allows) like a loving sheep (the hilarious).

Believe in George!!  You don't know the half of it . . . but watch this, and you will!!  NSFW due to profanity.  100% historically accurate!!

"Here comes George, in control."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbRom1Rz8OA
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: The Wannabe on August 30, 2012, 01:23:18 PM
I don't think he wants to answet that question, Wannabe.  I asked yesterday, and he has ignored it:

Well, let's cross our fingers and hope he comes back with some answers.  Working out his convoluted  theological issues on this forum wouldn't hurt him a bit.
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: dadamsjr on August 31, 2012, 06:02:48 AM
Haven't been back because I never intended to get into a long discussion on whether God exists or not.  I have read every comment and watched the Stephen Hawking's video.  This might be interesting to some of you but last year when I began asking questions, one question I asked was could the pastor look SH eyeball to eyeball, tell him that God (or Jesus) loved him, and believe what they were saying?  A God Who declares He loves you, has the power to do ANYTHING lets a man like SH have a life like that?  So what surprised me in the video was there did not appear to be any bitterness or hate in SH toward his condition.

Anyhow, my entry on this site was only to try (evidently unsuccessfully) to show that a better question than "Why doesn't God heal amputees?" (which evidently is then used to show there is NO God) would be that ALL faiths pray to a "god" for the healing of their loved ones.  When the loved ones of faiths where according to the Christian perspective only the Christian God heals and answers prayers since Allah, Buddha, the Hindu god, etc and even the "wrong" Christian faith gods (Jehovah Witness, Mormons, 7th Day Adventist) are then not answered, the conclusion would be the people recovered without "god" intervening.  So what about the Christians who recover?  Not one single Christian would recover, God or no God, prayer or no prayer, without proper, in-time medical care.

I am leaving now, hope I made no enemies, life is too short for that.  If you would like to have further contact, I have always included my email address at the end.  As for the wife, my troubles are just beginning.  She remains totally unresponsive, laying there with her eyes open, only 54 years old, vegetarian, no alcohol or drug use, hasn't smoked in 25 years, never cheated anyone, cared deeply for her dogs.  She will likely go into a nursing home and without extensive paperwork, homes don't accept patients younger than 60.  I am told a nursing home will only cost $4,000 - $6,000 a month.  That is at least $48,000 per year.  I maybe make $40,000 a year - before taxes. . . . . .   

David JR
dadamsjr@live.com
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: none on August 31, 2012, 06:09:50 AM
what is the deal?
why leave the forum?
you include your email as if you want somebody to contact you... if you want contact with members on this forum just stay.
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Garja on August 31, 2012, 06:14:01 AM
Sorry to see you go, just felt like I was starting to get into what your positions truly were.  I hope for the best with the medical situation which plagues you and yours.

Fair seas and following winds.
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: jetson on August 31, 2012, 06:16:29 AM
David,

Thanks for the update, and I hope you can find all the strength you need in your situation.

Yes, we spend a lot of time here debating religious topics and gods, but we are certainly not beyond just listening, and offering support for you and your family.  If you ever need to vent, stop by and say hi.

Jet
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Boots on August 31, 2012, 07:41:52 AM
David,
for what it's worth, you have a great deal of empathy from me regarding your wife's condition.  My mind shrinks from the thought of being in your position--even NOT considering the financial straits you find yourself in.  My apologies if my reply to you came across as too harsh--in retrospect, I do feel like it was over the line into "crass" territory, and I'm sorry about that.

I hope, along with others here it seems, that you don't leave the forum just yet, at least until you're confident that this community isn't doing anything for you.

As for your specific suggestion (WWGHA is not the correct question), you do have a very legitimate point.  I believe the site author wanted to focus on the Xian god of the bible, both because of the popularity in the United States, and (presumably) the author's own experience.  Taking the bible specifically allows the examiner to question why the bible specifically states in multiple places "prayer will be answered in the affirmative," yet there are no unambiguous examples of that (such as healing amputees)
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: screwtape on August 31, 2012, 06:47:22 PM
David,

Thank you for sharing your story and your perspective.  I wish you and your wife the best.

Regards
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: ParkingPlaces on August 31, 2012, 11:34:35 PM
Welcome dadamsjr. I am saddened to hear about your wife.

Just a note. It is far easier to make sense of tragedy, personal or otherwise, when you don't insist on having a god involved. The world is not a place that it automatically friendly to people or any other living thing. The law of averages, as it currently stands (i.e. at this moment the planet isn't being hit by a Mt. Everest sized asteroid, which would repeal the law of averages immediately) seems to make it so some people have it easy while others have medium and still others have it hard. There is no inherent reason for one person being dastardly and living a long and fruitful life while another person is unquestionably good and dies of cancer at the age to 20. This is stuff that happens.

It all makes sense when one looks at it from a naturalist point of view. It ceases to make sense when you try to toss in an all-loving god. Or any god, for that matter. Because then you have to imagine all the ramifications. There are no actual ramifications, being as there are no gods.
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Ivellios on September 01, 2012, 08:26:15 AM
One of my co-workers mother died. She was called from the hospital and told that her mother wouldn't make the night and to leave right away. After driving for hours. She was within sight of the hospital when she recieved the horrible phone call, that her mother passed away just minutes before. To this day she wonders why god took her away then instead of waiting just five more minutes.

I told her that it makes perfect sense if you take god out of the picture. She chose to believe in god anyway, so that brings up the other possibility. God truly hates this christian woman and just to spite her and cause her grief, god took her mom just 5 minutes before they could say good bye, face to face. After all, what else says, "I love you," from such a perfect, All-Loving God than that?
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: jetson on September 01, 2012, 11:27:24 AM
Ivellios - I can't believe you forgot that it was all a part of the grand plan!   ;D
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Ivellios on September 03, 2012, 05:03:49 AM
ooh, a spammer.
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Hatter23 on September 03, 2012, 10:14:51 AM
Don't they know spam makes baby Jesus cry, he prefers sucking milk from Mary Christ's boobies.
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: none on September 13, 2012, 07:52:14 AM
I sent an email to dadamsjr
let me know if it was toxic or if it was the voice of reason speaking will you fellow wwgha forum members? ( I need a reality check )
Quote
subject: member from wwgha dot com, follow up inquiry
I read your story at wwgha.com and I commented on your intent for contact
through this email address, but this has no relationship to the intent of this
email directly or indirectly.
I don't know how to preface what I am about to write, but I hope you have
enough trust to give me the benefit that I am not being malicous.
I learned through reading what you wrote at wwgha.com that your wife had a
stroke and this troubles you deeply.
I cannot say that I know what you are feeling because I don't, but I do care
enough about you and your wife to write this email.
I don't need to know if your wife's condition has worsened to understand the
sorrow that you that you expressed at the wwgha forum or the sorrow you maybe
feeling now is a real part of your life and existence, but I can say I too
felt sorrow because of your wife's condition being as it was and the impact it
had on you both during and after I read what you wrote.
There are obviously insensitive members of wwhga that have written insensitive
things in that particular thread that you posted in, some of which I disregard
altogether to the parts of my recolection so that I cannot recall them, but
this these issuses are not the intent of my email or me seeking to contact
you.
The intent of this email is to ask you how you are doing.
I know that you are under no obligation to reply to anything I have said and I
can understand your reluctance to reply to this unexpected email from me.
I apologize if I offended you by writing what I wrote because I realize that
it wasn't exactly the most diplomatic or reasonable way to communicate my
intentions of asking you to stay at the wwgha forum, but I have reconsidered
what I wrote and welcome you to reconsider what I posted and what others have
posted that is not obviously toxic or even slightly toxic to you that
addressed your situtation regarding your commitment to your wife and her
condition.
Instead of trying to further discuss irrelevent and/or hurtful things I will
ask you now how are you doing, how is your wife and her well being, is she
being taken care of, are you being taken care of, are you both as healthy as
can be expected at this point given the hardship you have faced?
I know that I have written alot for you to consider, but I hope, wish, and
request that you and you wife both do better in the future as there is no
alternative for me or you given the fact that I have considered your wife and
yourself human beings worthy of attention.
I know that my request and pleading may have sounded empty and futile, but I
honestly believe that you can over come this hardship and your wife can endure
the pain, agony, and reality that is her condition as you have described.
If you want to connect with me on an intellectual level or emotional level I
request that you reply to this email and if you do not I understand that you
do not have the desire to do so.
I will finish this email with something that has brought some stability to my
thinking which ultimately is the motive for remebering you and contacting you
and remebering your words along with your wife and her condition that you
mentioned.
I never forgot your story, or you, or your wife, but I have changed my ways
and felt it neccessary to contact you.
Again I need to preface a portion of this email, so I will say that these
definitions and truths as I see them are the motive for my contact with you
and I hope that you consider them carefully because to disregard or cast aside
what I am about to write may hurt you or myself in the future or now.
I realise that we all have a history and a path that we intend to follow and
sometimes things just don't work out the way we think they should given what
we experience in our youth and childhood.
About me, I am an old man with a heavy heart that finds solace in being able
to share my thougths with others who may be suffering in thier own way that is
different than mine who can possibly overcome their sorrow and pain to realise
that things are just the way they are for a damn good reason.
This is not a confrontational email, and it is not intented to be
confontational so please consider the following words as a basis for
understanding that might lead to understanding that we are all human beings
worthy of intent and respect.
A being that is human is nothing more and nothing less than a being that has
DNA that is different than any other animal species' DNA.
A human being is nothing more and nothing less than an animal whose root is a
zygote or zygotes which develops into an embryo that is gestated and survives
birth.
A person is a human being that is a subject of rights and duties as defined by
law.
I know that these truths and definitions are very clinical but so is life, but
without the clinical aspect of life the universe would be sterile, and I
realise that nobody wants a sterile universe, do they?
I thank you for your time, and please understand that somebody cares even if
you do or don't, regardless any belief that you have that may interfere with
what I have written or not written.
If you need any help with the meaning of any word, sentence, or thought in
this email feel free to contact me as I think it would lead to a wonderful
friendship that could quite possibly be temporary in length, but I also
realise that a temporary friendship would at least be meaningful to one of us
if not both, would it not?
Have an enjoyable life, or try to have an enjoyable life until you contact me,
beacuse I am rooting for you to do the right thing and be a man, a human
being, a fighter, a lover, a monster, an animal, that loves his wife and takes
care of himself and his wife to his fullest regardless what others think, say,
or do, beacuse when you contact me I will be as sterile and venomous as I
possibly can be to express to you that you do not need a god that is prayed to
or respected as a human being or person to resolve the humanity that you feel
towards your wife and others.
so you do it and have a nice day, lest you be a machine!
[name].)
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: none on September 13, 2012, 02:47:14 PM
well I got a typical "I believe in god with baggage" reply.
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: none on September 13, 2012, 02:49:50 PM
I followed up the "I believe in god reply with baggage" with this email....
who know if it does any good? who really cares?
Quote
subject: member from wwgha, follow up inquiry
  The God that you appear to be describing is the God of the bible, and I will
assume for the duration of this particular response within this email that you
indeed believe that the God of the bible is nothing more and nothing less than
what is presented in the bible and you believe that God exists as described by
the bible.
  God belief as I have describe is based on faith, not logic, not
rationalization, and not reason or reasoning; Instead of using logic,
rationalization, or reason to believe in God theists use faith to belive in God.
  What I am about to say you may have or may not have already heard or read
before from a different source, but I think it is prudent that I address this
portion of your email most effectively by approaching it rationally, reasonably,
and lgocially so that you better understand the reality of God as presented by
the bible and the seriousness of your belief in that by maintaining your belief
you have either dehumanized yourself, dehumanized everyone who is not you, or
dehumanized everyone who is not God and you do not realize it, acknowledge it,
or find it dangerous and toxic to society and every human being that exists; I
did not say that you absolutely know or that I absolutely know you are toxic to
all human beings I said that your belief in God is dehumanizaing and that
dehumanization is toxic to either every human being or every other human being
besides yourself.
  I know that saying your belief is dangerous and your dehumanizaing beliefs are
toxic to society must sound absurd because you believe differently than what is
true and real and you have the bible as foundation for your beliefs, but it is
true and if you continue to read you will know why and how it is true; Christian
beliefs being toxic is counter intuitive for a Christian but Christianity's
toxicity is completely true and fully known to others that examine Christianity
(a form of thiesm) objectively and all theists have this toxicity attached to
their beliefs whether they know it or not and this state of awareness does not
make any given person anything other than a human being because human beings are
known to be falible.
  The Christian belief system is falible just like any belief that human beings
can concieve of and so is the bible which is the foundation for your belief in
God being real and God being a being.
  Obviously you personalize God which is in accordance with the bible and I do
not doubt your belief, but this presents an obvious dilema, but in reality
there are an infinite number of dilemas; I will only conentrate on the
the most obvious dilema that I am fully aware of and able to express
conveniently for the purposes of this email which is to express to you that you
do not need a god that is prayed to or respected as a human being or person to
resolve the humanity that you feel towards your wife and others.
  The first dilema is that there is a common misunderstanding that Christians
who believe in the God of the bible have, and that misunderstanding is that
Christians have a monotheistic belief system; atheists, pantheists, and deists
believe that Christian theists believe in one God and this belief that Christian
theists have is not true and Christians theists are falible because they are
human beings and all human beings are falible just as all theists regardless of
religious identiy are falible.
  Unfortuneatly if a person considers what the bible describes as being true
about God it is evident that God is not represented by a single coherent concept
that unifies God in both the bible and the natural world ( reality ) that
satisfies the criteria Christian's are monotheistic and this is evident by the
attributing of personalized characteristics to a God that cannot be both a
natural He ( personalized ) and supernatural He ( personalized ) at the same
time because being both a supernatural person and natural person means that God
the natural person is not exactly the same as God the supernatural person just
as a person's body is not the same as a person's soul; Persons having a soul is
a principle of the bible and so is faith yet there is no coherent unity of God
into a singular being that is logical, rational, reasonable, or reasoned.
  A resolution to this problem is faith in God's omnipotence ( the ability to do
anything) but omnipotence is an imaginary proposition and cannot be true in the
real world ( reality ) and be anything except an idea that is restricted to the
imagination and false in the most real sense of the word false as detemined by
logic, rationalization, and reason which is used in the real world to determine
what is true and what is false in a most real sense of the word real in the real
world; God, as described by the bible, is able to exist fully in the imagination
because God has the ability to exist fully in the imagination but God at that
time of being fully in the imagination is not anywhere in the real world (
reality ) as a being, and alternately if God is able to exist fully in reality
God would not be in the imagination at all because God being real and God being
imagined at the same time is not logical, rational, or reasonable therefore
there is no logic, rationalization, or reason to the belief that God is
omnipotent there is only the faith that God is omnipotent that makes God's
omnipotence true and faith makes nothing absolutely true in the real world (
reality ) only logic, rationalization, and reason make something absolutely true
in the real world (reality) and as a result the bible describes a God that is
only possible with the imagination or faith.
  Please consider again the following terms, definitions, and ideas more
carefully without discarding them as illogical, irrational, and unreasonable
because to do so is to consider them with faulty logic, irrational thoughts, and
unreasonable reasons which is called using the imagination:
  A being that is human is nothing more and nothing less than a being that has
DNA that is different than any other animal species' DNA.
  A human being is nothing more and nothing less than an animal whose root is a
zygote or zygotes which develops into an embryo that is gestated and survives
birth.
  A person is a human being that is a subject of rights and duties as defined
by law.
  I will sumarize this email by saying this, if a human being willfully
personalizes god or anything other than a human being into a person or gives god
or anything that is not a human being personhood status then you are
dehumanizing human beings; either god is less than a human being and human
beings are persons and god is not a person, god is equivalent to human beings
and both god and human beings are persons which means human beings aren't real,
god is more a human being than a human being which is dehumanizing, or god is
not equivalent to human beings and human beings are persons and god is not a
person.
  If you have any questions about any word, sentence, or idea that I have
written I encourage you to either research online, contact me via this email
address, or return to the wwgha forum and peruse topics that are of interest to
you or post a question about anything; I suggest starting with logic and reason
it will lead you to the truth.
  I do hope that your wife's condition improves and you are able to spend many
more years together in happiness, however if her condition worsens I will be
supportive of any decision you make concerning your well being and her's, if she
remains in the current condition she is in now and it is too uncomfortable for
you to bear I will understand that you need to make a decision to take care of
your self and be supportive of her when you can, just as you are doing now.
 Goodbye for now and may you live a long and healthy life, you deserve to at
least have that honest goodbye because you are a human being that I chose to
care about and talk to.
  Once again, but in a different way I say to you life is clincal and being
sterile is the absence of life; Have a good life and I wish, hope, request that
you and your wife both do better in the future together or apart.
[name].

Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: Add Homonym on September 22, 2012, 11:54:10 AM
He already went. If he has wented, then he doesn't want to unwent.
Title: Re: FW: From D - just being stupid - I want to send this to C [#2683]
Post by: none on October 27, 2012, 03:45:26 PM
He already went. If he has wented, then he doesn't want to unwent.
i continued to taunt....