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Main Discussion Zone => General Religious Discussion => Topic started by: 3sigma on August 10, 2012, 09:50:50 PM

Title: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on August 10, 2012, 09:50:50 PM
Allowing yourself to believe that an unvalidated feeling, idea or situation is true is self-deception. If your first thought on reading the title of this thread was, “Why should I?” then please explain why you would rather live your life constantly deceiving yourself than accepting reality. I think I know the answer to that, but this thread is for those theists who would rather be intellectually honest.

The first thing we need to do is determine exactly what it is you believe in so please provide a factual description of your God’s characteristics and abilities so that we can be sure that we will know it when we see it. Try to be as specific as possible to avoid ambiguity. We need to be able to differentiate your God from other phenomena. So, for example, claiming that your God is love or the universe or is all around us is not helpful in the least. Claiming that your God is supernatural or beyond the natural, observable universe is also not helpful. If your God is beyond the observable universe then how could you possibly have observed it to conclude that it is real? So again, please provide a factual description of your God’s specific characteristics and abilities.

If you cannot provide a factual description of your God then please provide enough sound evidence and sound arguments to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it is real. I’m assuming that no intellectually honest person would use unsound evidence or unsound arguments to reach a conclusion. Try to avoid using misapprehensions, fallacies or misrepresentations as evidence or arguments. Bare assertions or assumptions are not useful. Please provide evidence and arguments that can be tested and verified and that unambiguously establish your God as the only explanation.

If you cannot provide a factual description of your God or any sound evidence or sound arguments to support your belief then please explain what distinguishes your belief from imagination. Imagination is forming a mental image of something not present to the senses. Something imaginary exists only in imagination; it lacks factual reality. Subjective notions such as internal personal experiences or feelings are indistinguishable from imagination. If you couldn’t turn to people next to you and ask, “Did you see/hear/smell/feel that?” and expect them to say, “Yes” then whatever it is you experienced was likely imaginary. You need to provide something objective that we could all perceive to detect your God and verify that it is real. We need to distinguish objective reality from a subjective reality in which people believe things are as they want or imagine them to be rather than as they are.

Now, if you have provided a factual description of your God or sound evidence and sound arguments to prove that it is real then you have established the truth or validity of your belief. Otherwise, it is more likely you are simply deceiving yourself.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 12 Monkeys on August 10, 2012, 09:58:13 PM
Wow good luck with this one &)
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on August 10, 2012, 10:09:41 PM
I created this thread mainly in response to Mooby's constant evasions here (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,23249.msg525001.html#msg525001). He keeps saying "not in this thread" so I'm trying to eliminate that excuse.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 12 Monkeys on August 11, 2012, 12:58:25 PM
like I said GOOD LUCK
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on August 15, 2012, 06:48:13 PM
Bumped so magicmiles should have no trouble finding this thread and responding.

I notice no other theist has responded either. What a shock.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: HAL on August 15, 2012, 06:52:16 PM
I notice no other theist has responded either. What a shock.

Welcome to our world.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: magicmiles on August 15, 2012, 07:12:18 PM
3sigma, I don't dance to your tune and your thread doesn't interest me. Stop nagging. I have discussed my faith in many theads and don't feel the need to do so for every new atheist that starts posting on the forum.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Nam on August 15, 2012, 07:17:03 PM
My God is my DVD player. It tells me it is every time I enter a DVD, which I must say are demi-gods.

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on August 15, 2012, 08:04:02 PM
3sigma, I don't dance to your tune and your thread doesn't interest me. Stop nagging. I have discussed my faith in many theads and don't feel the need to do so for every new atheist that starts posting on the forum.

Let me get this straight. You started a thread in Science about how we validate beliefs. You asked at what point we should consider someone foolish if they don’t reach a certain percentage validation. You claim your belief in your God is 100% validated, but a thread that asks you to show that your belief is validated doesn’t interest you? Why the reluctance to demonstrate your claim? Why the constant evasion?

Instead of actually responding to my OP in this thread, you evade my request with bluster, boredom, a complaint that I’m nagging you and indignation that you should be asked to explain yourself to a mere new arrival. Sadly, this is the sort of behaviour I’ve come to expect from religious believers whenever they are asked to validate their beliefs. I was hoping at least one intellectually honest theist might respond to this thread, but perhaps there are none.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: magicmiles on August 15, 2012, 08:23:34 PM
I think my record of responding to questions is pretty bloody good. I have no obligation to respond to every thread that seeks theist contribution, and I certainly don't have the time.

It has nothing to do with "my way or the highway", I don't stamp my feet and cry foul if nobody responds to my threads. It'd be a different story if I join a thread with an opinion and then ignore follow up posts - but I don't do that and that isn't the case here either.

I am sure the thread I stared will evolve to the point where most of the questions you ask will be addressed. I see it as a major thread, and one I have been sort of building up to for a while.

Keep an eye on that one. Or don't.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: HAL on August 15, 2012, 08:42:41 PM
I think my record of responding to questions is pretty bloody good. I have no obligation to respond to every thread that seeks theist contribution, and I certainly don't have the time.

It has nothing to do with "my way or the highway", I don't stamp my feet and cry foul if nobody responds to my threads. It'd be a different story if I join a thread with an opinion and then ignore follow up posts - but I don't do that and that isn't the case here either.

Yet you start threads expecting answers from atheists and say you are leaving for days and expect us to respond to your questions we've answered literally tens or hundreds of time before.

Please.

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Nam on August 15, 2012, 08:42:55 PM
I think my record of responding to questions is pretty bloody good. I have no obligation to respond to every thread that seeks theist contribution, and I certainly don't have the time.

This is true. But, then, why respond at all? Seems counter-productive if you have no intention of answering any of the OP's questions.

Quote
It has nothing to do with "my way or the highway",

Apparently, it does.

Quote
I don't stamp my feet and cry foul if nobody responds to my threads. It'd be a different story if I join a thread with an opinion and then ignore follow up posts - but I don't do that and that isn't the case here either.

Actually, again, it is when you make a comment about how you're not participating in a topic questioning your beliefs. Why respond at all?

Quote
I am sure the thread I stared will evolve to the point where most of the questions you ask will be addressed. I see it as a major thread, and one I have been sort of building up to for a while.

Keep an eye on that one. Or don't.

Trollish behavior. Things done your way, and no other.

-Nam
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: magicmiles on August 15, 2012, 08:52:30 PM

Yet you start threads expecting answers from atheists and say you are leaving for days and expect us to respond to your questions we've answered literally tens or hundreds of time before.


But if nobody responded, that's fine. In fact, I encourage you not to respond to any of my posts. You're not very thoughtful, probably because you have a response written before the post arrives, like a dickhead.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: on:bread:alone on August 15, 2012, 08:54:05 PM
My God is my DVD player. It tells me it is every time I enter a DVD, which I must say are demi-gods.

;)

-Nam

this faith has structural integrity.

i like it.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: HAL on August 15, 2012, 08:56:31 PM
You're not very thoughtful, probably because you have a response written before the post arrives, like a dickhead.

My aim here is not to present evidences for God. I'm interested to know if any alternate explanations exist. You're all a bit defensive, so far. Except Hal.

Well, even if I'm not thoughtful, at least I'm not defensive.  :)
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on August 15, 2012, 09:09:05 PM
I am sure the thread I stared will evolve to the point where most of the questions you ask will be addressed. I see it as a major thread, and one I have been sort of building up to for a while.

Let’s test that shall we.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Nam on August 15, 2012, 09:11:59 PM
3sigma,

I wouldn't participate in a topic, if that's your intention, where the OP announces in your topic that they aren't going to participate in. It seems asinine.

-Nam
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on August 15, 2012, 09:25:58 PM
I wouldn't participate in a topic, if that's your intention, where the OP announces in your topic that they aren't going to participate in. It seems asinine.

Magicmiles said above that he doesn’t ignore follow up posts in a thread where he’s offered an opinion so I’ve made a follow up post in his Science thread. Let’s see if he lives up to his word.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Nam on August 15, 2012, 09:45:30 PM
He hasn't responded to any of the posts in his own topic. I don't believe he's here for debate. Which makes me wonder: why's he here?

-Nam
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jetson on August 15, 2012, 09:46:04 PM
He hasn't responded to any of the posts in his own topic. I don't believe he's here for debate. Which makes me wonder: why's he here?

-Nam

He enjoys the forum.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Nam on August 15, 2012, 09:50:18 PM
I think he enjoys the responses he gets rather than the forum itself. I don't think he's here to participate, so, why's he still here?

-Nam
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: The Wannabe on August 15, 2012, 10:04:10 PM
He hasn't responded to any of the posts in his own topic. I don't believe he's here for debate. Which makes me wonder: why's he here?

-Nam

He enjoys the forum.

I personally think we atheists here at WWGHA stimulate him more intellectually than any number of watered-down, neutered Sunday church sessions.  Am i right, magicmiles?  :angel:
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Nam on August 15, 2012, 10:14:46 PM
I don't think we stimulate him in anyway except what pertains primarily to his own topics, which I will no longer participate in. We're just his own personal fodder.

-Nam
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: natlegend on August 16, 2012, 01:52:13 AM
Very thoughtful OP. A shame it won't be properly answered. Anyone know where Old Church Guy is these days?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: BigV on August 17, 2012, 08:09:09 AM
Allowing yourself to believe that an unvalidated feeling, idea or situation is true is self-deception. If your first thought on reading the title of this thread was, “Why should I?” then please explain why you would rather live your life constantly deceiving yourself than accepting reality. I think I know the answer to that, but this thread is for those theists who would rather be intellectually honest.

The first thing we need to do is determine exactly what it is you believe in so please provide a factual description of your God’s characteristics and abilities so that we can be sure that we will know it when we see it. Try to be as specific as possible to avoid ambiguity. We need to be able to differentiate your God from other phenomena. So, for example, claiming that your God is love or the universe or is all around us is not helpful in the least. Claiming that your God is supernatural or beyond the natural, observable universe is also not helpful. If your God is beyond the observable universe then how could you possibly have observed it to conclude that it is real? So again, please provide a factual description of your God’s specific characteristics and abilities.

If you cannot provide a factual description of your God then please provide enough sound evidence and sound arguments to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it is real. I’m assuming that no intellectually honest person would use unsound evidence or unsound arguments to reach a conclusion. Try to avoid using misapprehensions, fallacies or misrepresentations as evidence or arguments. Bare assertions or assumptions are not useful. Please provide evidence and arguments that can be tested and verified and that unambiguously establish your God as the only explanation.

If you cannot provide a factual description of your God or any sound evidence or sound arguments to support your belief then please explain what distinguishes your belief from imagination. Imagination is forming a mental image of something not present to the senses. Something imaginary exists only in imagination; it lacks factual reality. Subjective notions such as internal personal experiences or feelings are indistinguishable from imagination. If you couldn’t turn to people next to you and ask, “Did you see/hear/smell/feel that?” and expect them to say, “Yes” then whatever it is you experienced was likely imaginary. You need to provide something objective that we could all perceive to detect your God and verify that it is real. We need to distinguish objective reality from a subjective reality in which people believe things are as they want or imagine them to be rather than as they are.

Now, if you have provided a factual description of your God or sound evidence and sound arguments to prove that it is real then you have established the truth or validity of your belief. Otherwise, it is more likely you are simply deceiving yourself.

Let me answer this from my previously evangelical perspective, that I have a hard time divesting myself off completely.

If you asked me these questions about 2 -3 years ago, I'd say that from a Christian perspective, God is a being who is beyond human understanding, and so cannot be explained or comprehended by humanity completely.  What can be known about God is revealed in the Bible.  Namely, that God cannot sin, cannot lie, God is good, etc...  Also, the Bible (at least the NT) says that without faith, it is impossible to please God, implying that God expects faith and therefore, will not be provable in a scientific sense, since science is not faith, but knowledge based.

How does a Christian know that God is real?  Well, they believe he is.  There are some hints to his existence.  For example, the abundance of life forms on our planet, the mathematical precision of the observed natural order of the universe, etc....   Granted, Lawrence Kraus has an explanation, but he has a Phd in Physics and his explanation requires a lot of thinking for most people, and it's easier to take an easier explanation that feels right.

And, don't forget the fear factor of Christianity.  Christian God had to kill his own son for the sins of the world.  While not much can be known about this God, it's clear that you don't want to get on his wrath.  So, while not completely understanding this God, it's better to be safe than sorry.   Do you want to risk your eternity in hell?  If there is no God, a Christian loses very little (talking about a modern, evangelical Christian, not about a 15th century monk).  But if there is a God, then atheist loses everything.

I think that most evangelicals would agree with the above explanations.  I'm a realatively new ex Christian but the rest of my family is very religious (my dad is a pastor of a Baptist church and I know he would agree with the above).
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on August 17, 2012, 08:32:17 AM
The first thing we need (is to) please provide a factual description of your God’s characteristics and abilities so that we can be sure that we will know it when we see it......
If you cannot provide a factual description of your God then please provide enough sound evidence and sound arguments to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it is real......
If you cannot provide a factual description of your God or any sound evidence or sound arguments to support your belief then please explain what distinguishes your belief from imagination......

Which I would follow by saying: if you haven't managed to acheive any one of those things, why should I or anyone else give a toss what you believe to be true?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Boots on August 17, 2012, 02:51:06 PM
Let me answer this from my previously evangelical perspective, that I have a hard time divesting myself off completely.

If you asked me these questions about 2 -3 years ago, I'd say that from a Christian perspective, God is a being who is beyond human understanding, and so cannot be explained or comprehended by humanity completely.  What can be known about God is revealed in the Bible.  Namely, that God cannot sin, cannot lie, God is good, etc...  Also, the Bible (at least the NT) says that without faith, it is impossible to please God, implying that God expects faith and therefore, will not be provable in a scientific sense, since science is not faith, but knowledge based.

* If he can't be comprehended by humanity, how can he be perceived?
* biblegod is *anything* but "good."  He's a petty, vindictive, genocidal, warmonger.  Look at Job or Jeptha.
* I disagree that "you can't prove god sicentifically" follows from "faith pleases god."

Quote
How does a Christian know that God is real?  Well, they believe he is.  There are some hints to his existence.  For example, the abundance of life forms on our planet, the mathematical precision of the observed natural order of the universe, etc....   Granted, Lawrence Kraus has an explanation, but he has a Phd in Physics and his explanation requires a lot of thinking for most people, and it's easier to take an easier explanation that feels right.

how are these hints that the Xian god exists?

Quote
And, don't forget the fear factor of Christianity.  Christian God had to kill his own son for the sins of the world.  While not much can be known about this God, it's clear that you don't want to get on his wrath.  So, while not completely understanding this God, it's better to be safe than sorry.   Do you want to risk your eternity in hell?  If there is no God, a Christian loses very little (talking about a modern, evangelical Christian, not about a 15th century monk).  But if there is a God, then atheist loses everything.

Pascal's Wager.  It's a crappy argument.  (and I thought god was "good"--why create eternal torment at all?  How about a punishment that fits the crime??)

Quote
I think that most evangelicals would agree with the above explanations.  I'm a realatively new ex Christian but the rest of my family is very religious (my dad is a pastor of a Baptist church and I know he would agree with the above).

I'm sorry.  Really.  Because the above is a loaded diaper.  No offense to you, of course!  I,, for one, thank you for your input!
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: befree on August 17, 2012, 04:00:02 PM
Why is there so much anger?

Allowing yourself to believe that an unvalidated feeling, idea or situation is true is self-deception. If your first thought on reading the title of this thread was, “Why should I?” then please explain why you would rather live your life constantly deceiving yourself than accepting reality. I think I know the answer to that, but this thread is for those theists who would rather be intellectually honest.

The first thing we need to do is determine exactly what it is you believe in so please provide a factual description of your God’s characteristics and abilities so that we can be sure that we will know it when we see it. Try to be as specific as possible to avoid ambiguity. We need to be able to differentiate your God from other phenomena. So, for example, claiming that your God is love or the universe or is all around us is not helpful in the least. Claiming that your God is supernatural or beyond the natural, observable universe is also not helpful. If your God is beyond the observable universe then how could you possibly have observed it to conclude that it is real? So again, please provide a factual description of your God’s specific characteristics and abilities.

If you cannot provide a factual description of your God then please provide enough sound evidence and sound arguments to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it is real. I’m assuming that no intellectually honest person would use unsound evidence or unsound arguments to reach a conclusion. Try to avoid using misapprehensions, fallacies or misrepresentations as evidence or arguments. Bare assertions or assumptions are not useful. Please provide evidence and arguments that can be tested and verified and that unambiguously establish your God as the only explanation.

If you cannot provide a factual description of your God or any sound evidence or sound arguments to support your belief then please explain what distinguishes your belief from imagination. Imagination is forming a mental image of something not present to the senses. Something imaginary exists only in imagination; it lacks factual reality. Subjective notions such as internal personal experiences or feelings are indistinguishable from imagination. If you couldn’t turn to people next to you and ask, “Did you see/hear/smell/feel that?” and expect them to say, “Yes” then whatever it is you experienced was likely imaginary. You need to provide something objective that we could all perceive to detect your God and verify that it is real. We need to distinguish objective reality from a subjective reality in which people believe things are as they want or imagine them to be rather than as they are.

Now, if you have provided a factual description of your God or sound evidence and sound arguments to prove that it is real then you have established the truth or validity of your belief. Otherwise, it is more likely you are simply deceiving yourself.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on August 17, 2012, 05:16:30 PM
Why is there so much anger?

Why is there so much evasion from religious believers? Are you going to attempt to answer the OP? Can you validate your belief in your God? Is your God real or imaginary? I suspect neither you nor any other religious believer will make any attempt to answer the OP. Why is that?

By the way, it isn’t anger. It began as bemusement. I am fascinated by the questions of why and how religious believers allow themselves to believe something that hasn’t a shred of sound evidence or a single sound argument to support it. I think insecurity is the answer to why and gullibility is the answer to how.

However, that bemusement changes to disgust and contempt when I read the news (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&tbm=nws&q=sectarian+violence) each day and see the intolerance, violence, misery and death caused by people around the world acting on or motivated by their childish religious beliefs.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Nam on August 17, 2012, 05:50:54 PM
3sigma,

That's their goto when they can't think of an actual answer, or have an actual answer. We must all be "angry". That has to be the only conclusion to why we're not like them, or believe what they believe to be true.

-Nam
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Boots on August 17, 2012, 08:26:06 PM
Why is there so much anger?

Where, specifically, are you reading anger?  Because I sure didn't read any.  I read a well-reasoned, very reasonable request.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: natlegend on August 17, 2012, 11:23:28 PM

That's their goto when they can't think of an actual answer, or have an actual answer. We must all be "angry". That has to be the only conclusion to why we're not like them, or believe what they believe to be true.

-Nam

They honestly can't see the contradiction...

Christian: "Why don't you believe in god? You must be angry at him!"

Atheist: &)
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: tlcheinig@roadrunner.com on August 18, 2012, 01:31:06 AM
I stongly believe in science.  That every action is met with an equal but opposite reaction is the basis of science, validating that life is based on an extreme positive force and an equal negative force. (the only way to illustrate infinity is to have two mirrors reflecting back and forth.)  The core difference avoiding the extremes on both the spiritual side and scientific side seems to be as simple as on the spiritual side this positive force is conscious and on the other it is not.  I take the conscious side. Removing the legalism and ideology of religions may offer a different perspective.  Non believers find it hard to believe that Jesus was raised from the dead from the one who controls this positive energy force yet do not question that we thousands of people a day from the dead using just that.  An energy force called a defibulator.  Im just saying Maybe looking at something differently and independently will at least allow you wonder about and even question the universe.  good night for now
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: DumpsterFire on August 18, 2012, 01:57:39 AM
Non believers find it hard to believe that Jesus was raised from the dead from the one who controls this positive energy force yet do not question that we thousands of people a day from the dead using just that.  An energy force called a defibulator.  Im just saying Maybe looking at something differently and independently will at least allow you wonder about and even question the universe.

I hate to break it to you, but defibrillators do not raise people from the dead. They are quite effective at preventing people from becoming dead due to cardiac arrest, but these people are still, in fact, alive when the defibrillator is employed. Pretty big difference there.

And I can assure you that the vast majority of participants here are filled with wonder and questions about the universe, we simply prefer to approach the unknown from a logical and rational perspective.

Welcome to the forum, BTW. Its been a while since we've had an adherent of mysticism on board. Hope you stick around for a while. It'll be fun!
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Astreja on August 18, 2012, 02:20:38 AM
...validating that life is based on an extreme positive force and an equal negative force.

Why "extreme"? Why equal?  Why only 2?

Quote
(the only way to illustrate infinity is to have two mirrors reflecting back and forth.)

Not so.  Draw a circle and imagine going around it repeatedly.  Imagine another tomorrow after tomorrow.

And you do realize that it's possible to have a unilaterally positive infinity *or* a negative infinity with zero origin, don't you?

Quote
The core difference avoiding the extremes on both the spiritual side and scientific side seems to be as simple as on the spiritual side this positive force is conscious and on the other it is not.

Unsupported assertion, and a totally meaningless statement without a coherent definition of what "spiritual" actually means.

Quote
Non believers find it hard to believe that Jesus was raised from the dead from the one who controls this positive energy force yet do not question that we thousands of people a day from the dead using just that.  An energy force called a defibulator.

DumpsterFire has already pointed out that a defibrillator doesn't actually bring people back from the dead; it merely jolt-starts the heart and prevents death.  Nonetheless, it has never successfully been used upon someone who was several days dead... And I'm reasonably certain they didn't have such devices in Jerusalem circa 30 CE.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Mooby on October 02, 2012, 08:45:40 AM
3sigma,

While I know this thread was primarily made for me, I think there are some differences in perception which will get in the way of our discussion.

First, you ask for a "factual" description of God and then qualify that with examples of things that are/are not "useful."  However, my belief is not rooted in what I feel to be useful to you or me or anyone else; it's rooted in what I think is true.  Unfortunately, many of the things I believe about God are not what you would consider "useful."  In particular, I do not believe God is a phenomenon, if by "phenomenon" you mean something that is both a posteriori (dependent on experience) and empirical (based on repeated observation).

On the whole, it seems as if you view God as primarily a posteriori.  However, while I do believe God has at least some a posteriori interaction with us (prayer, miracles, etc.), my belief is primarily a priori (independent of experience).  Thus, I think asking whether we can "detect" God is putting the cart before the horse: yes, I do think we can detect God, but in my view detecting God is something that deepens belief, but is not a foundation for belief.

As for distinguishing objective from subjective reality, I don't know that that's possible.  As I hinted in the other thread, I think we have some major barriers to making that distinction.

I think I'll stop here and see if you want to go further with me, or if this is too far from what you had in mind.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on October 02, 2012, 09:13:32 AM
While I know this thread was primarily made for me, I think there are some differences in perception which will get in the way of our discussion.

First, you ask for a "factual" description of God and then qualify that with examples of things that are/are not "useful." 

Actually, 3S only uses the word "useful" once - when he suggests that unveriable assertions are not useful.  However, what he does ask for are specifics - a clear description that would enable us to differentiate your god from any other god, or from a pencil or an octopus.

You note that your beliefs are ".....primarily a priori (independent of experience)", which seems to suggest that you believe in something that is essentially outside of your experience. 

There is nothing inherently wrong with that - you are more than welcome to believe in anything you want.  But as 3S said, if you are unable to point to any testable aspect of what you believe, then there is nothing - literally nothing - that differentiates your beliefs from any other person's delusion or confidence trick or insanity.  Again, fine for you if that's what you believe.

But the relevance for me comes in the subsidiary question I asked: if there is not a single thing you can point to to say "that shows that my god is real", then why should we give even a passing moment's thought to your particular view of the universe, other than as "funny story #463"?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: screwtape on October 02, 2012, 09:19:36 AM
However, my belief is not rooted in what I feel to be useful to you or me or anyone else; it's rooted in what I think is true. 

IN addition to what anfauglir said, I would add that what is true is useful to know.  There is truth about this concept of god you have.  Whether the truth is this god is imaginary, it is something like what you conceive or you are completely correct, knowing the truth is useful and important.  If there is a god as you describe, then it is useful to know that, since your god has certain rules and eternal consequences. 
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jdawg70 on October 02, 2012, 10:17:25 AM
However, my belief is not rooted in what I feel to be useful to you or me or anyone else; it's rooted in what I think is true. 

IN addition to what anfauglir said, I would add that what is true is useful to know.  There is truth about this concept of god you have.  Whether the truth is this god is imaginary, it is something like what you conceive or you are completely correct, knowing the truth is useful and important.  If there is a god as you describe, then it is useful to know that, since your god has certain rules and eternal consequences.

...except that I'm uncertain that the god that Mooby describes has any rules or any consequences in reality.  Perhaps I need to go through more past posts, but Mooby's god sounds more and more like Karen Armstrong's god.  Mooby, apologies if I am mis-characterizing, but could you mayhaps clarify if you expect that the existence of god would have any consequences in reality that are different from the non-existence of god.

Mooby, another question for you:
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As for distinguishing objective from subjective reality, I don't know that that's possible.  As I hinted in the other thread, I think we have some major barriers to making that distinction.
Do you think that the scientific method is a good way to minimize subjective bias in attempts to understand reality?  If yes, does that make any inroads for you for distinguishing objective reality from subjective reality?  If not, is it simply inadequate, or principally flawed as a tool for establishing objective truths?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: screwtape on October 02, 2012, 11:00:56 AM
...except that I'm uncertain that the god that Mooby describes has any rules or any consequences in reality. 

It is possible I have only assumed that.  If it is the case that his god has no rules and there are no consequences, then not only is the truth about his god useless, but so is his god.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Mooby on October 02, 2012, 11:31:33 AM
Actually, 3S only uses the word "useful" once - when he suggests that unveriable assertions are not useful.
You're right. The other times he said "helpful," so I should have said "useful/helpful" instead of "useful."

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But the relevance for me comes in the subsidiary question I asked: if there is not a single thing you can point to to say "that shows that my god is real", then why should we give even a passing moment's thought to your particular view of the universe, other than as "funny story #463"?
I never said you should. I'm honestly not interested in convincing or converting anyone to my beliefs. 3s expressed interest and made me a thread, so I responded. But by the same token, I see no reason to buy your view, either.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jdawg70 on October 02, 2012, 12:18:06 PM
Actually, 3S only uses the word "useful" once - when he suggests that unveriable assertions are not useful.
You're right. The other times he said "helpful," so I should have said "useful/helpful" instead of "useful."

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But the relevance for me comes in the subsidiary question I asked: if there is not a single thing you can point to to say "that shows that my god is real", then why should we give even a passing moment's thought to your particular view of the universe, other than as "funny story #463"?
I never said you should. I'm honestly not interested in convincing or converting anyone to my beliefs. 3s expressed interest and made me a thread, so I responded. But by the same token, I see no reason to buy your view, either.
Can we get away from the implicit requirement of expected intent that the word should seems to be entailing?  I suspect that, like myself, Anfauglir is interested in knowing the truth of what is real.  Should Anfauglir give your view of the universe even a passing moment's thought?  You're making a claim about reality; Anfauglir is interested in reality, ergo would indeed like to know if your claim about reality is true or false.  It doesn't really matter if you think Anfauglir, screwtape, 3sigma, myself, or anyone else should be interested in your beliefs - you're making a claim that affects (maybe - still need clarity from you) shared reality and therefore I'd like to know if your claim is correct.

I guess we could all 'agree to disagree', but then I'm going to start warning everyone about Galactus' eventual visitation to consume the Earth.  Not certain how productive that is.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: relativetruth on October 02, 2012, 02:18:35 PM

And, don't forget the fear factor of Christianity.  Christian God had to kill his own son for the sins of the world.  While not much can be known about this God, it's clear that you don't want to get on his wrath.  So, while not completely understanding this God, it's better to be safe than sorry.   Do you want to risk your eternity in hell?  If there is no God, a Christian loses very little (talking about a modern, evangelical Christian, not about a 15th century monk).  But if there is a God, then atheist loses everything.

My bolding

If there is no God a Christian loses a lot in a wasted life , hours and hours going to church, political activities, etc, and all trying to second guess this god into what is required to get to 'Heaven'.

But

If there is an All-powerfull , All-good, All-knowledable god then then this god would appreciate the effort the atheist has put in to get to their honest belief.
This god would acknowledge human limitations.

But, of course, if there is an AMORAL Controlling god.......
anything goes.

Edited for emphasis
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Gohavesomefun on October 02, 2012, 03:30:06 PM
Theists are deceiving themselves? Well that's interesting and pretty judgemental. Knowing a bit of science, doesn't give you the right to accuse anyone of deception. Granted, some people use belief to deceive others for selfish gains, but as for theists deceiving themselves? If you're talking about any claim that goes against modern science, it would be scientifically impossible to disagree.

Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but it seems to me; that when you referred to a theist deceiving themselves, you weren't just referring to the scientific side of the argument, instead it seems to be that you may be implying that they are wasting their time or possibly even causing harm to themselves.

Well allow me to just say that I think there is little consideration given towards those individuals whom may need to believe in this just to cope with existence. Some may be extremely satisfied with their existence and just want something or someone to thank for having such a wonderful time on Earth. Accept if you will, even if for just a moment; that some people need this and that some people want this belief in their lives, maybe then you wouldn't go out and demand explanations and accuse others of being deceptive. 
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: nogodsforme on October 02, 2012, 04:28:58 PM
Well allow me to just say that I think there is little consideration given towards those individuals whom may need to believe in this just to cope with existence. Some may be extremely satisfied with their existence and just want something or someone to thank for having such a wonderful time on Earth. Accept if you will, even if for just a moment; that some people need this and that some people want this belief in their lives, maybe then you wouldn't go out and demand explanations and accuse others of being deceptive.

(italics mine)
If people believed in invisible magical powerful beings to cope with existence in the privacy of their own brains, we would not even know about it! Nobody could "demand" anything about anyone's beliefs if they kept those beliefs private. Give thanks to anyone you want for your existence here on earth--your mama, your Brahma, Jehovah, Batman, Santa Claus, Wonder Woman, Mr. Spock or Thor. Or all of them. Knock yourself out! Who would care?

But people don't stop with their own belief. They have to try to change laws that affect other people, make policy governing other people, affect what other people's kids learn in school, block scientific advancements by and for other people. They have to force other people to live by their beliefs. They want to change other people's lives, tell other people who to have sex with or who to marry, what medical procedures or treatments other people can have, or what other people can eat and drink, or what other people will celebrate and how. They even beat up or kill other people who don't believe the same.

If the belief is not even based on real evidence, if it is obviously just some made up legends forced on people throughout history for political reasons, on top of everything else, there are some pretty important reasons to, at the very least, ask some skeptical questions about that belief. At the extreme, it might be necessary to fight against the people who have that belief.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Mooby on October 02, 2012, 07:55:04 PM
IN addition to what anfauglir said, I would add that what is true is useful to know.
I'm not so sure about that.  There's a lot of knowledge out there that's pretty close to useless, depending on how much you split hairs on usefulness.  Either way, though, I don't think that's how 3s was using it in the OP; in that post, I took "helpful" and "useful" to mean something conducive to 3s' goals in this discussion.


Perhaps I need to go through more past posts, but Mooby's god sounds more and more like Karen Armstrong's god.
I am not familiar with Karen Armstrong or her theological beliefs.

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Mooby, apologies if I am mis-characterizing, but could you mayhaps clarify if you expect that the existence of god would have any consequences in reality that are different from the non-existence of god.
Of course it does, though I don't claim to know them all.  For starters, if God didn't create the universe, we might not even be here!

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Do you think that the scientific method is a good way to minimize subjective bias in attempts to understand reality?  If yes, does that make any inroads for you for distinguishing objective reality from subjective reality?  If not, is it simply inadequate, or principally flawed as a tool for establishing objective truths?
I think it's a good tool for empiric investigation, but that this doesn't necessarily extend to finding objective truths.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: JeffPT on October 02, 2012, 09:14:08 PM
I'm not so sure about that.  There's a lot of knowledge out there that's pretty close to useless, depending on how much you split hairs on usefulness. 

I totally agree here.  Some knowledge is very useless.  But knowing whether or not a specific postulated being exists, and having our eternal salvation depend upon what we think about this being is far from useless information.  I doubt anyone would disagree here.

Of course it does, though I don't claim to know them all.  For starters, if God didn't create the universe, we might not even be here!

Do you claim to know any specific details that could only be explained by the existence of the God you believe in?  Because, as you well know, the existence of the universe is no more evidence for the God you believe in than it is for any other possible creating force, including a completely natural one.  While the existence of the universe is a fact that lends support to the God theory, it also lends support to the Zeus theory, the Thor theory, the Vishnu theory in exactly the same way.  It also lends support to the idea that it was formed from unknown, or even completely natural causes. 

I think it's a good tool for empiric investigation, but that this doesn't necessarily extend to finding objective truths.

What tool do you find works better than the scientific method at determining objective truths about the universe?  And please provide an example of it's use that illustrates how it is superior to the findings that would be generated if the scientific method were brought to bear on the same example.   
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on October 02, 2012, 10:04:03 PM
First, you ask for a "factual" description of God and then qualify that with examples of things that are/are not "useful."  However, my belief is not rooted in what I feel to be useful to you or me or anyone else; it's rooted in what I think is true.  Unfortunately, many of the things I believe about God are not what you would consider "useful."  In particular, I do not believe God is a phenomenon, if by "phenomenon" you mean something that is both a posteriori (dependent on experience) and empirical (based on repeated observation).

I mean useful or helpful in establishing the truth or validity of your claims or useful or helpful in differentiating your God from anything else. You’ve said you believe your God is real and you believe you have a personal relationship with it. I want you to demonstrate to us that those beliefs are true and you aren’t simply deceiving yourself. The first thing we need to do is establish exactly what your God is. That’s why I’m asking you to provide a factual description of it. If you can’t even define or describe your God then it isn’t possible to prove that it is real, in which case your belief is nothing more than self-deception.

A phenomenon is a fact or situation observed to exist or happen, especially one whose cause or explanation is in question. Saying you don’t believe your God can be observed to exist or your personal relationship with it could be observed to happen only serves to negate your beliefs. Believing you have a personal relationship with something is certainly dependent on experience so your objection here further negates your belief.

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On the whole, it seems as if you view God as primarily a posteriori.  However, while I do believe God has at least some a posteriori interaction with us (prayer, miracles, etc.), my belief is primarily a priori (independent of experience).  Thus, I think asking whether we can "detect" God is putting the cart before the horse: yes, I do think we can detect God, but in my view detecting God is something that deepens belief, but is not a foundation for belief.

Well then what is the foundation of your belief if it isn’t dependent on experience with or observation or detection of your God? Is it just an emotion or internal feeling you have? That would make your personal relationship with it a fantasy.

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As for distinguishing objective from subjective reality, I don't know that that's possible.  As I hinted in the other thread, I think we have some major barriers to making that distinction.

Objective means not dependent on the mind for existence; actual. If something is objective it is perceptible (though not necessarily perceived) by all observers. If you were to say the foundation for your belief is based on internal feelings then that isn’t objective.

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I think I'll stop here and see if you want to go further with me, or if this is too far from what you had in mind.

I’m asking you to validate (prove) your belief that your God is real and you have a personal relationship with it. You can do that by following the guidelines in the OP. Allowing yourself to believe that an unvalidated feeling, idea or situation is true is self-deception. If you cannot establish the truth or validity of your claims then why should anyone believe them or trust what you say?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on October 03, 2012, 02:40:43 AM
But the relevance for me comes in the subsidiary question I asked: if there is not a single thing you can point to to say "that shows that my god is real", then why should we give even a passing moment's thought to your particular view of the universe, other than as "funny story #463"?
I never said you should. I'm honestly not interested in convincing or converting anyone to my beliefs.....by the same token, I see no reason to buy your view, either.

Interesting.  Not sure I've presented a view, but implicit in what I've been saying so far is any view I would choose to present to you would be (a) capable of being described and articulated, and (b) capable of verification.

Are you saying that you see no need to consider a view that can be articulated and verified?  That you would dismiss any such views because they do not fit with your "beliefs"?  I'm having a hard time accepting that that IS what you are saying, so please correct me - I may just have the wrong end of the stick.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Dominic on October 03, 2012, 09:55:13 AM

3Sigma,

1.  I want to know how a universe and life can orginate.  My reason tells me that it cannot randomly come together.  So, I need a reasonable alternative.  Science offers a few attempts but since science cannot address a first cause, the problem is out of its scope.

2.  The experiences of people who have temporarily died (NDEs) reveal that consciousness continues without any need of a body.  Although these are subjective reports, their number and consistency requires a serious explanation.

3.  I want explanations for love, for happiness, for consciousness, for the cleverness of nature (and lots more besides).

The only, and I emphasise only, serious explantion that has been offered throughout history for the things mentioned above, is that there is an eternal and universal force which gives rise to and sustains these things.  That force demonstrates intelligence, consumate skill/precision, and purpose in both the universe itself and in the consciousness which witnesses these occurences.

That force is what I call God.  Furthermore I see no alternative to these conclusions.  No other attempted explanation even begins to explain the phenomenon which we witness every day, every minute in fact.

Of course it can be given a name other than God to perhaps avoid the vast quantity of 'baggage' that has attached itself to that term over the years but personally I haven't found a better word than 'God' to encapsulate this concept.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: screwtape on October 03, 2012, 10:49:36 AM
I'll let 3sig do the heaving lifting on this, since you did address him.  But let me just point out this one thing:

The only, and I emphasise only, serious explantion

A guy who just existed nowhere, outside of time is a serious explanation?  BAAAAAAHAHAHAHAhahahaha!!! 


Oh, and I'm pretty sure you've been schooled on NDEs here before.  Too bad none of it stuck.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: naemhni on October 03, 2012, 11:40:28 AM
1.  I want to know how a universe and life can orginate.  My reason tells me that it cannot randomly come together.

This is called the "Argument from Incredulity": you say that you cannot believe something to be true, therefore it must be false.  Reality does not work that way.  To give a counterexample: I absolutely cannot fathom how anyone can be a Christian -- I really can't.  But it does not follow from that that Christians do not exist.

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Science offers a few attempts but since science cannot address a first cause, the problem is out of its scope.

And this fallacy is called "Moving the Goalposts", or possibly "God of the Gaps": a natural explanation for x is not (currently) available, therefore a deity must have done it.  The problem here is that naturalistic explanations for various phenomena are being discovered all the time, meaning that those gaps are getting smaller and those goalposts don't have much farther back to move, and indeed, it is not unreasonable to suspect that the gaps and goalposts will eventually cease to exist altogether.

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2.  The experiences of people who have temporarily died (NDEs) reveal that consciousness continues without any need of a body.  Although these are subjective reports, their number and consistency requires a serious explanation.

This is simply false.  NDEs have perfectly naturalistic explanations.

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3.  I want explanations for love, for happiness, for consciousness, for the cleverness of nature (and lots more besides).

1)  Love: What do you need to know?
2)  Happiness: Same question.
3)  Consciousness: We don't have a definitive explanation and/or definition of it yet; some even claim that it does not exist.  We're working on it, so stay tuned.
4)  The cleverness of nature: Assumes facts not in evidence.  There is no indication that nature is "clever" -- if I'm even understanding what you mean by that, which I admit I may well not be.

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The only, and I emphasise only, serious explantion that has been offered throughout history for the things mentioned above, is that there is an eternal and universal force which gives rise to and sustains these things.

"An unknowable force does things in an unknowable way using unknowable methods and for unknowable reasons."  This is not a serious explanation.  It is, indeed, not an explanation at all.

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That force demonstrates intelligence, consumate skill/precision, and purpose in both the universe itself and in the consciousness which witnesses these occurences.

How?

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That force is what I call God.

And what if you called it Fred, or Mugwump?

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Furthermore I see no alternative to these conclusions.  No other attempted explanation even begins to explain the phenomenon which we witness every day, every minute in fact.

Argument from Incredulity again (with a dash of "Argument from Ignorance" thrown in for seasoning).

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Of course it can be given a name other than God to perhaps avoid the vast quantity of 'baggage' that has attached itself to that term over the years but personally I haven't found a better word than 'God' to encapsulate this concept.

Define "God".  Explain its characteristics, how it works, where it is, etc etc.  Once you've done that, we can investigate whether this being/force exists.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jdawg70 on October 03, 2012, 04:26:10 PM
Perhaps I need to go through more past posts, but Mooby's god sounds more and more like Karen Armstrong's god.
I am not familiar with Karen Armstrong or her theological beliefs.
Insofar as I understand, her theological beliefs are basically an exercise in semantic vagueness.  'God' exists, but isn't a person, force, or presence in reality.  But exists, mind you.  She'll tell you a whole lot about what god isn't but will make damn sure to let you know that she can't tell you what god is.  But god is real.

I think I equated Karen Armstrong's theological views on god to porn.  Sweet.
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Mooby, apologies if I am mis-characterizing, but could you mayhaps clarify if you expect that the existence of god would have any consequences in reality that are different from the non-existence of god.
Of course it does, though I don't claim to know them all.  For starters, if God didn't create the universe, we might not even be here!
In what ways does this differ then from the claim "If the 64th Regiment of Rigel 7 didn't create the universe, we might not even be here!"
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Do you think that the scientific method is a good way to minimize subjective bias in attempts to understand reality?  If yes, does that make any inroads for you for distinguishing objective reality from subjective reality?  If not, is it simply inadequate, or principally flawed as a tool for establishing objective truths?
I think it's a good tool for empiric investigation, but that this doesn't necessarily extend to finding objective truths.
...so is it simply inadequate or principally flawed?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on October 03, 2012, 04:27:28 PM
1.  I want to know how a universe and life can orginate.  My reason tells me that it cannot randomly come together.  So, I need a reasonable alternative.  Science offers a few attempts but since science cannot address a first cause, the problem is out of its scope.

I’d be interested to know how the universe originated as well, but we don’t know now and we may never know because it may be impossible to obtain information from “before” the Big Bang. I’m hoping we will know how life originated within my lifetime, but we don’t know that yet either. I’m certainly not going to assume an answer without any sound evidence or sound arguments to support it.

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2.  The experiences of people who have temporarily died (NDEs) reveal that consciousness continues without any need of a body.  Although these are subjective reports, their number and consistency requires a serious explanation.

You know, people who experience NDEs haven’t really died. That’s why they’re called near death experiences instead of after death experiences. Sure, they are designated as being clinically dead, but that just means their circulation and breathing have stopped. That happens to hundreds of thousands of people every day around the world. Some of them are resuscitated. A few of those describe what they felt as their brain malfunctioned due to hypoxia and other chemical imbalances in their bodies. I’d like to see someone who has died and been cremated come back to life and tell us about it. Then I’ll believe in experiences after death.

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3.  I want explanations for love, for happiness, for consciousness, for the cleverness of nature (and lots more besides).

Then I suggest you read more.

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The only, and I emphasise only, serious explantion that has been offered throughout history for the things mentioned above, is that there is an eternal and universal force which gives rise to and sustains these things.  That force demonstrates intelligence, consumate skill/precision, and purpose in both the universe itself and in the consciousness which witnesses these occurences.

That force is what I call God.  Furthermore I see no alternative to these conclusions.  No other attempted explanation even begins to explain the phenomenon which we witness every day, every minute in fact.

On the contrary, “God did it” is a shallow answer to comfort shallow thinkers. It is nothing more than an admission of ignorance and defeat. It is just a condensed way of saying you don’t know how those things happened, but not knowing makes you feel insecure so you’re going to assume a simple answer that reinforces your comforting religious beliefs and you’re unwilling or unable to investigate any further.

You haven’t answered the OP. All you’ve done is evade it by asking questions in return. We see that often from religious believers. So tell us, is this God of yours real or imaginary? Please provide a factual description of it. Please provide enough sound evidence and sound arguments to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it is real. Please explain what, if anything, distinguishes your belief in your God from imagination. If you can’t provide any of that then it is more than likely you are simply deceiving yourself.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jdawg70 on October 03, 2012, 04:30:13 PM
3.  I want explanations for love, for happiness, for consciousness, for the cleverness of nature (and lots more besides).
So do I.  Should I just make up explanations or devise a way of finding and verifying those explanations?

If you want explanations for these things, I've got those in spades.  But I suspect you want correct explanations.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Mooby on October 03, 2012, 05:26:53 PM
Do you claim to know any specific details that could only be explained by the existence of the God you believe in?  Because, as you well know, the existence of the universe is no more evidence for the God you believe in than it is for any other possible creating force, including a completely natural one.  While the existence of the universe is a fact that lends support to the God theory, it also lends support to the Zeus theory, the Thor theory, the Vishnu theory in exactly the same way.
No, I do not.  For any finite set of points, there are an infinite number of equations that go through all of them.  Similarly, there's at least one alternative explanation for every phenomenon.

Zeus, Thor, and Vishnu are all conceptions of God.

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What tool do you find works better than the scientific method at determining objective truths about the universe?
I haven't found any.  Therein lies the problem.  I know of no tool that determines objective truths about the universe.


You’ve said you believe your God is real and you believe you have a personal relationship with it.
I did not invent God, nor do I claim any ownership over Him.  He is no more "my" God than the laws of thermodynamics are "my" laws.

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The first thing we need to do is establish exactly what your God is. That’s why I’m asking you to provide a factual description of it. If you can’t even define or describe your God then it isn’t possible to prove that it is real, in which case your belief is nothing more than self-deception.
Actually, I think that's a few steps down the road, but since you went to the trouble of making the thread, I won't argue the point.

God is, to the best my human mind and language can describe, the eternally omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent source of all being.

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A phenomenon is a fact or situation observed to exist or happen, especially one whose cause or explanation is in question. Saying you don’t believe your God can be observed to exist or your personal relationship with it could be observed to happen only serves to negate your beliefs.
What I said is that God can be observed, but that He's not observable as a phenomenon.  It might be more clear to say that God can cause phenomenon and/or make Himself known directly to our senses, but He is not a constantly observable phenomenon like your computer.

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Well then what is the foundation of your belief if it isn’t dependent on experience with or observation or detection of your God? Is it just an emotion or internal feeling you have? That would make your personal relationship with it a fantasy.
You really do like answering your own questions for me, don't you?

God is ontologically prior to experience, observation, detection, emotions, internal feelings, and imagination.  If God were to suddenly stop existing (or start, for the atheist), the meaning of all those things would change in some way.  Thus, I cannot base my faith on these any more than I can use polar coordinates to prove the equation for the area of a circle (since polar coordinates are derived from said equation.)

So where can it come from?  It can't come from the universe, since if I believe God is eternal and the universe is not, then God must be prior to the universe.  Can it come from my own reason, Decartes style?  No, for the same reason.

So what's left when I discard all experience, observation, detection, emotions, internal feelings, imagination, the universe, or even myself?

Interesting.  Not sure I've presented a view, but implicit in what I've been saying so far is any view I would choose to present to you would be (a) capable of being described and articulated, and (b) capable of verification.
I don't think you have, but I was assuming that you have some view of the universe.  My point was that the door swings both ways: you currently have no reason to buy my view, and I have no reason to buy yours, whatever it may be.

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Are you saying that you see no need to consider a view that can be articulated and verified?
No, I would definitely consider any view that could be articulated and verified in establishing objective reality.

Insofar as I understand, her theological beliefs are basically an exercise in semantic vagueness.  'God' exists, but isn't a person, force, or presence in reality.  But exists, mind you.  She'll tell you a whole lot about what god isn't but will make damn sure to let you know that she can't tell you what god is.  But god is real.
Interesting.  Perhaps she feels she lacks the words to describe God properly?  She sounds like she'd be interesting to talk to, at any rate.

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In what ways does this differ then from the claim "If the 64th Regiment of Rigel 7 didn't create the universe, we might not even be here!"
Well, for starters, I don't know who or what the 64th Regiment of Rigel 7 is.  Is it ontologically prior to the universe?

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...so is it simply inadequate or principally flawed?
As a tool?  Neither.  For empirical investigation?  It's great.  For establishing objective truths?  It's inadequate.

Much as a screwdriver is good for screwing screws, so-so for hammering nails, and terrible for tightening bolts, so is the scientific method good at what it does, but not good at what it doesn't.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on October 03, 2012, 06:31:15 PM
I did not invent God, nor do I claim any ownership over Him.  He is no more "my" God than the laws of thermodynamics are "my" laws.

When I say your God, I simply mean whatever it is you think of as God. It only implies possession inasmuch as you have formed your own personal opinion of what God is. Of course, everyone has to do that because it has no foundation in fact.

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God is, to the best my human mind and language can describe, the eternally omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent source of all being.

I asked for a factual description. Is any of that a fact? Has any of it been proven to be true? Please prove that description is factual. If you can’t do that then provide another description and this time please confine yourself only to facts.

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What I said is that God can be observed, but that He's not observable as a phenomenon.  It might be more clear to say that God can cause phenomenon and/or make Himself known directly to our senses, but He is not a constantly observable phenomenon like your computer.

God is ontologically prior to experience, observation, detection, emotions, internal feelings, and imagination.  If God were to suddenly stop existing (or start, for the atheist), the meaning of all those things would change in some way.  Thus, I cannot base my faith on these any more than I can use polar coordinates to prove the equation for the area of a circle (since polar coordinates are derived from said equation.)

This is meaningless word salad unless you can prove that any of that is a fact. Please provide a factual description of your God.

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So where can it come from?  It can't come from the universe, since if I believe God is eternal and the universe is not, then God must be prior to the universe.  Can it come from my own reason, Decartes style?  No, for the same reason.

So what's left when I discard all experience, observation, detection, emotions, internal feelings, imagination, the universe, or even myself?

Hold on there. There is no sound reason to discard emotions, internal feelings and imagination as an explanation for your belief in a God. Those are all valid explanations and are probably the true explanation.

I’ll ask again, is this God of yours real or imaginary? Please provide a factual description of it. Please provide enough sound evidence and sound arguments to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it is real. Please explain what, if anything, distinguishes your belief in your God from imagination. If you can’t provide any of that then it is more than likely you are simply deceiving yourself.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Mooby on October 03, 2012, 07:14:40 PM
I asked for a factual description. Is any of that a fact?
Of course.

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Please prove that description is factual.
It's factual because it's an accurate depiction of the God in whom I believe.

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This is meaningless word salad unless you can prove that any of that is a fact.
No, it's an expansion of the definition I gave above.  Also, you are using "word salad" incorrectly, and "meaningless word salad" is redundant.

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Hold on there. There is no sound reason to discard emotions, internal feelings and imagination as an explanation for your belief in a God. Those are all valid explanations and are probably the true explanation.
Those are valid explanations for a posteriori belief, but as I said above I believe in an a priori god.

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Please explain what, if anything, distinguishes your belief in your God from imagination.
My beliefs refer to things external to myself, while my imagination is self-contained.  Also, as I mentioned in my last post, my imagination comes from me, and I come from the universe, so a god prior to the universe could not come from me unless I am more prior to the universe than God, which would make me prior to the universe, which we're assuming for the moment that I'm not.

I think some of this will become more clear after we get a little further into my beliefs about the relationship between science and objective reality.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: JeffPT on October 03, 2012, 08:59:40 PM
No, I do not.  For any finite set of points, there are an infinite number of equations that go through all of them.  Similarly, there's at least one alternative explanation for every phenomenon.

Do you believe that some explanations for phenomena in our universe are more reasonable and rational than others, or do you consider all explanations to be on equal footing?

If no, then how do you explain the explanatory power and predictability of some explanations over others? 
If yes, then what do you base the increased 'reasonableness' on?   

Zeus, Thor, and Vishnu are all conceptions of God.

Do you see them all as equally reasonable 'alternative explanations' to your version of god?  If yes, then please explain.  If no, then I assume you see your god as a superior explanation, and I would like to know why you feel that way (and what tool you used to get there) so that I can decide for myself whether or not your stance is reasonable. 

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What tool do you find works better than the scientific method at determining objective truths about the universe?
I haven't found any.  Therein lies the problem.  I know of no tool that determines objective truths about the universe.

If that is true, then what tool are you utilizing that assists you in coming to the conclusion that your particular version of god is the truth over all the others that have ever been postulated? 

The only tool that I have ever seen that is capable of giving us more accurate explanations of the universe (not necessarily objective truths) is the scientific method.  If we have no other tool that even comes close to giving us accurate explanations (and by accurate, I am talking about predictability, reliability, consistency, etc), do you see it as folly to trust that process more so than you might trust others? 
 
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jdawg70 on October 03, 2012, 09:20:04 PM
Insofar as I understand, her theological beliefs are basically an exercise in semantic vagueness.  'God' exists, but isn't a person, force, or presence in reality.  But exists, mind you.  She'll tell you a whole lot about what god isn't but will make damn sure to let you know that she can't tell you what god is.  But god is real.
Interesting.  Perhaps she feels she lacks the words to describe God properly?  She sounds like she'd be interesting to talk to, at any rate.
I agree she'd be interesting to talk to, but then again I think it'd be interesting talking to Deepak Chopra and Fred Phelps, so take that as you will :)
But I don't think it's a "she can't articulate her concept properly"...it's more of a "god cannot, in principle, be articulated or understood but I can say without hesitation exists" kind of thing.

I imagine that my little summation is missing quite a bit of nuance, and it wouldn't surprised if some of that nuance is relevant.  But it's all really rather squishy and nebulous.
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In what ways does this differ then from the claim "If the 64th Regiment of Rigel 7 didn't create the universe, we might not even be here!"
Well, for starters, I don't know who or what the 64th Regiment of Rigel 7 is.  Is it ontologically prior to the universe?
So it's this, right here, that I think 3sigma is getting at.  Just as you do not know who or what the 64th Regiment of Rigel 7 is, I do not know who or what god is.  Start from there.

Um.  Yes.  64th Regiment of Rigel 7 is ontologically prior to the universe.
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...so is it simply inadequate or principally flawed?
As a tool?  Neither.  For empirical investigation?  It's great.  For establishing objective truths?  It's inadequate.

Much as a screwdriver is good for screwing screws, so-so for hammering nails, and terrible for tightening bolts, so is the scientific method good at what it does, but not good at what it doesn't.
Can you expound on this a bit more?  I suspect that you can elaborate on the reasons why a screwdriver is good for screwing screws and terrible for tightening bolts.  Do you think you could do something similar for why the scientific method is good for <insert some descriptor here> and terrible for <insert another descriptor here>?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on October 04, 2012, 06:01:51 AM
It's factual because it's an accurate depiction of the God in whom I believe.

You are equivocating yet again, Mooby. It might be a factual description of what you imagine your God to be, but it isn’t a factual description of any actual god, which is what I’m asking for in this thread. No god has ever been proven to be eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent or the source of all being. No god has ever been proven to exist at all. Claiming your God is omnipotent is no more factual than claiming Santa Claus lives at the North Pole. Look Mooby, we know you can’t provide a factual description of your God. Why not just admit that instead of engaging in this prevarication?

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Those are valid explanations for a posteriori belief, but as I said above I believe in an a priori god.

Without any facts, observation or experience there is nothing to distinguish your a priori god from imagination.

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My beliefs refer to things external to myself, while my imagination is self-contained.  Also, as I mentioned in my last post, my imagination comes from me, and I come from the universe, so a god prior to the universe could not come from me unless I am more prior to the universe than God, which would make me prior to the universe, which we're assuming for the moment that I'm not.

More word salad. Simply claiming your God is prior to the universe doesn’t make it so. You need to establish the truth or validity of that claim (and all the other unsupported claims you’ve made). You’re also evading questions again, Mooby. I asked you if your God is real or imaginary. Please answer that.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: nogodsforme on October 04, 2012, 04:44:18 PM
How can Mooby honestly claim to be aware of beings, forces or entities that existed before the universe began and that exist outside of time and space? Entities that leave no physical sign of their presence, but just somehow he knows they are there. And he gets testy when we suggest he is, at best, imagining these beings, and at worse, lying to us about all this.

He just says things that don't make sense and expects us to accept it without explanation. And when we get close to pinning him down in something close to a real statement of fact, he starts in with the semantics and the critiques of someone's word usage and phrasing.

We are wasting our time with Mooby. He is as slippery as an eel. Over the past few years, we have done this dance over and over again and gotten nowhere. It is almost as if he has nothing real to offer here, and can't just admit that he is making stuff up as he goes along.

Where are these entities, Mooby? And how do you know they exist? What evidence do you have that people who believe in other gods (or who don't believe in any gods) don't have?

I predict that, if he responds to this at all, he will pick apart my statements but will not directly address the main point of what I am saying. He will never answer the questions. He can't. Watch.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Mooby on October 05, 2012, 10:11:54 PM
Do you believe that some explanations for phenomena in our universe are more reasonable and rational than others, or do you consider all explanations to be on equal footing?
Yes, in that I think there's merit in a method such as the scientific method that can organize observations of phenomena into theories.  No in the sense that I think all explanations are equally unable to find objective truths.

To illustrate, I think I see a phone in front of me.  Some explanations are better than others in telling me about the phone, with science being great at explaining how the phone works.  But all that is moot if the phone is not actually there.

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Do you see them all as equally reasonable 'alternative explanations' to your version of god?  If yes, then please explain.  If no, then I assume you see your god as a superior explanation, and I would like to know why you feel that way (and what tool you used to get there) so that I can decide for myself whether or not your stance is reasonable.
Again, yes and no.  I see them as good precursors for God, encompassing some of the concepts of a modern deity, but are a bit limited in scope.  If you follow Western theological traditions and philosophical branches such as metaphysics, the god that emerges is an infinite, perfect being.  And when we look at what deities, if any, could possibly be necessary for existence, it's not hard to conclude some version of Aristotle's unmoved mover, who would be the perfect source of all being. 

So, from my point of view, the minimum necessary requirements for a deity, if one exists, would be a perfect, infinite source of all being.  And I think omniscience/omnipotence/omnipresence would follow from that.  Earlier religious systems like the Greek/Roman/Norse pantheons (and early Judaism) had groups of superhuman deities that accomplished some godly traits like creation, miracles, etc., but they still treated their gods as products of the universe (which is why Thor translates so easily to comic form) and thus are only an early approximation of the concept of God.

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If that is true, then what tool are you utilizing that assists you in coming to the conclusion that your particular version of god is the truth over all the others that have ever been postulated? 
I think I somewhat answered this above; ultimately it's a conclusion I've reached after years of contemplation, study, discussions, etc.  It's not so much that I'm choosing one truth over all others as much as I see each religious belief as an attempt to put together a very large puzzle, and I'm just looking for what appears to be the most complete picture.  Of course, I don't have the puzzle cover, and I'm not 100% sure the puzzle even exists (anyone can take random pieces and try to force them to match), but I'm still giving it a shot.

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The only tool that I have ever seen that is capable of giving us more accurate explanations of the universe (not necessarily objective truths) is the scientific method.  If we have no other tool that even comes close to giving us accurate explanations (and by accurate, I am talking about predictability, reliability, consistency, etc), do you see it as folly to trust that process more so than you might trust others?
No, I don't see it as folly to use the scientific method as it's intended.  The scientific method is revolutionary in its ability to translate empirical experiences/observations into working theories that can be used to explain the world, and develop new theories.  We've done a lot of great things with that, and modern technology would likely have not progressed as it has without it.  I rely on it heavily every day, and I can't fault anyone else for relying on it, either.

So it's this, right here, that I think 3sigma is getting at.  Just as you do not know who or what the 64th Regiment of Rigel 7 is, I do not know who or what god is.  Start from there.

Um.  Yes.  64th Regiment of Rigel 7 is ontologically prior to the universe.
I'm not quite sure what you're asking for; I've listed what I think the minimal traits for God are twice so far.

I take it from them being prior to the universe that Rigel 7 is not a planet or other place within the universe, since they're prior to that.  And they're probably not restricted to space or time, since those are properties of the universe.  And they might not even be phenomena, since we don't know of phenomena outside the universe.

Can you expound on this a bit more?  I suspect that you can elaborate on the reasons why a screwdriver is good for screwing screws and terrible for tightening bolts.  Do you think you could do something similar for why the scientific method is good for <insert some descriptor here> and terrible for <insert another descriptor here>?
Sure!

Empiricism is the synthesis of ideas based on experiences.  The scientific method is great for generalizing those ideas into formal theories about how the world works.  For instance, a doctor may use a new treatment on a case and note it worked.  She may then use it on all her patients with a similar presentation, and get positive results.  If she treats new cases the same way based on experience, it's an empirical treatment.  If she then researches this treatment using the scientific method in a randomized, controlled trial, she could turn it into a scientific theory (and then probably try to publish it so others could replicate her results).  So science is great for turning subjective observations into generalizable theories with minimized bias.

However, you may notice above that the scientific method relies on empiricism, and thus is limited to what can be observed empirically.  That's where we start to run into limitations: if we're using empiricism as our source of knowledge, then how to we come to know the validity of "Empiricism is a valid source of knowledge?"  We can't do it empirically, as it's circular.  Also, we have no reason to think that we can potentially observe everything that exists, or that observation is the only way we can know anything about what exists.  So we're left with a bubble of knowledge somewhere within the set of all possible knowledge, and we really don't know how much of the set it encompasses or how well it does it. 

So in short, science is terrible at doing anything outside its bubble.

Claiming your God is omnipotent is no more factual than claiming Santa Claus lives at the North Pole.
Santa Claus does live at the North Pole.  Whether he's real or not is a different matter entirely.

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Without any facts, observation or experience there is nothing to distinguish your a priori god from imagination.
Is there anything to establish that claim from imagination?

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More word salad.
Again, that's not word salad.  Look up the term before you look sillier than a creationist claiming evolution is "just a theory."

Where are these entities, Mooby? And how do you know they exist? What evidence do you have that people who believe in other gods (or who don't believe in any gods) don't have?
I don't believe God is an entity.  And no, that's not semantics, that's 2500+ years of a very important conceptual difference.  If you don't understand that difference, you are not going to understand any of my posts in this thread, including this one.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: JeffPT on October 05, 2012, 11:39:33 PM
To illustrate, I think I see a phone in front of me.  Some explanations are better than others in telling me about the phone, with science being great at explaining how the phone works.  But all that is moot if the phone is not actually there.

If the scientific process illustrates that the phone works reliably, predictably and consistently then is that not evidence leading to the notion that the phone is actually there?  And if the phone does not work reliably, predictably and consistently, and if there is no solid evidence for the phone at all, is that not evidence leading to the notion that the phone might not be there after all?   

Again, yes and no.  I see them as good precursors for God, encompassing some of the concepts of a modern deity, but are a bit limited in scope.

You make a good point here and I am going to take it where it's dying to go.  This is nothing more than the evolution of the God concept, is it not?  The problem I see with that is that evolution does not imply a progression toward truth... only a progression toward being more 'fit for survival'.  Could it not simply be that the modern concept of God exists in it's present form because science has completely obliterated the old ways of thinking?  After all, the old concepts of God were much more 'in your face' than the current, more nebulous, 'out there' versions that we see today.  Furthermore, why do you think it will not continue to evolve even further than it has?  Do you honestly think that at this present time, all evolution of the God theory is suddenly going to stop because it's finally been figured out?  Don't you think the people in ancient Greece, Rome, Egypt thought the EXACT same thing about their positions?   

If you follow Western theological traditions and philosophical branches such as metaphysics, the god that emerges is an infinite, perfect being.

And in another 250 years, that thought process might be considered a religious 'transitional fossil'. 

So, from my point of view, the minimum necessary requirements for a deity, if one exists, would be a perfect, infinite source of all being. And I think omniscience/omnipotence/omnipresence would follow from that.

That's fine, and I can see your thought processes here.  But do you have any evidence that such a being exists?  And if you do not, what makes you think it exists?  From my point of view, Aristotle's unmoved mover might be possible, but everything else is a major reach. 

Also, can you please explain how a deity can be perfect and omnimax at the same time?  Especially since perfection is a matter of perspective.  My definition of a perfect being might be vastly different from yours.  And if you are going to say it's God's definition of perfection, by definition, shouldn't that be my definition of perfection as well?  After all, a perfect being would be perfect in everyone's eyes at the same time.  The problem is that if God exists, I don't think he's perfect at all and my evidence can be summed up in 2 words... pediatric oncology. 

Earlier religious systems like the Greek/Roman/Norse pantheons (and early Judaism) had groups of superhuman deities that accomplished some godly traits like creation, miracles, etc.,

Yes. Just like Jesus.  Instead of a bunch of them, its just one. 

but they still treated their gods as products of the universe (which is why Thor translates so easily to comic form) and thus are only an early approximation of the concept of God.

Do you think you could convince a follower of Thor that Thor does not exist?  Why or why not? 

I think I somewhat answered this above; ultimately it's a conclusion I've reached after years of contemplation, study, discussions, etc.  It's not so much that I'm choosing one truth over all others as much as I see each religious belief as an attempt to put together a very large puzzle, and I'm just looking for what appears to be the most complete picture.

By being a follower of a specific religion, however, you're taking it a lot further than just saying 'this appears to be the most complete picture', aren't you?  Also, how does this differ from what everyone else does with their religion?   

Of course, I don't have the puzzle cover, and I'm not 100% sure the puzzle even exists (anyone can take random pieces and try to force them to match), but I'm still giving it a shot.

What is it about the atheist position gives you pause?  Because I'm giving it a shot as well.  And from my position, the god you spoke about with the characteristics you mentioned 'might' exist, but to act as if it does, in the absence of evidence you clearly say you don't have, seems very crazy to me.   Is it the prime mover thing?  What part of 'I don't know how it all came to be' doesn't work for you?  Are you completely ruling out the idea that everything could just be natural?  If so, why? 

No, I don't see it as folly to use the scientific method as it's intended.  The scientific method is revolutionary in its ability to translate empirical experiences/observations into working theories that can be used to explain the world, and develop new theories.  We've done a lot of great things with that, and modern technology would likely have not progressed as it has without it.  I rely on it heavily every day, and I can't fault anyone else for relying on it, either.

It seems that the sum total of your beliefs in God are not furnished by using the scientific method.  Do you find that the process you have used, which seems to largely be a product of philosophy and logic applied with very few corroborating facts, is better than the scientific method at determining the existence of anything? How about determining the existence of God?  If there is a difference, please explain why the existence of God is better determined by not using the scientific method. 
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: nogodsforme on October 06, 2012, 12:10:55 AM
God and Jesus translate pretty easily to comic book form just like Thor. Because comic books are usually about made-up characters with superhuman powers. Funny how we only find references to such characters in mythology, comic books, action movies, kid's tv shows and......religion.

One of those takes itself seriously and wants to make laws and control people's thoughts and behavior. The rest are fun diversions. &)
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on October 06, 2012, 06:47:54 AM
Santa Claus does live at the North Pole.  Whether he's real or not is a different matter entirely.

No, Mooby, Santa Claus doesn’t actually live at the North Pole because, like your god, Santa Claus is imaginary. Fact is the quality of being actual. So it isn’t factual to say Santa Claus lives at the North Pole and it isn’t factual to say your god is eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent or the source of all being. You have failed to provide a factual description of your god, as we knew you must.

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Is there anything to establish that claim from imagination?

I don’t understand this. Are you trying to say, “Is there anything to distinguish that claim from imagination?” If so then my answer is, yes. I am not imagining the fact that you have failed to provide a factual description of your god. I’m not imagining the fact that you’ve failed to provide a shred of sound evidence or a single sound argument to show your god is real. Consequently, I’m not imagining the fact that you have completely failed to distinguish your belief in your god from imagination.

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Again, that's not word salad.  Look up the term before you look sillier than a creationist claiming evolution is "just a theory."

As expected, you resort to quibbling in an attempt to evade my question. Is your god real or imaginary, Mooby? Please stop evading that question.

Let’s review your progress so far in answering the OP. You’ve failed to provide a factual description of your god. Your descriptions so far tend towards defining your god as non-existent or imaginary. You’ve failed to provide any sound evidence or sound arguments to prove beyond reasonable doubt that your god is real. You’ve failed to explain what, if anything, distinguishes your belief in your god from imagination. So far, you’ve failed to validate your belief in your god. Allowing yourself to believe an unvalidated feeling, idea or situation is true is self-deception. Consequently, it would seem that you are simply deceiving yourself.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: screwtape on October 06, 2012, 03:48:35 PM
So in short, science is terrible at doing anything outside its bubble.

Terrible argument, terrible conclusion, terrible idea. F minus.  this was really awful, Moob. 

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: lotanddaughters on October 06, 2012, 04:44:23 PM
So in short, science is terrible at doing anything outside its bubble.

Terrible argument, terrible conclusion, terrible idea. F minus.  this was really awful, Moob.

"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Mooby on October 06, 2012, 10:53:00 PM
If the scientific process illustrates that the phone works reliably, predictably and consistently then is that not evidence leading to the notion that the phone is actually there?  And if the phone does not work reliably, predictably and consistently, and if there is no solid evidence for the phone at all, is that not evidence leading to the notion that the phone might not be there after all?
Only if I'm already assuming things that can lead me to those conclusions.  If there's a Factor X that distorts my initial perception of the phone, and distorts my perception of the phone in the same way all throughout my investigation, and I'm not aware of it, how can I know my conclusion is sound?

For just one possible example, what separates you and I from the little old lady in a nursing home who's looking for a crossing guard to "help me cross the street?"  Sure, we as outside observers can see that she has dementia, but how do we get an outside perspective on our own perceptions?  If it's really the year 2072, and we're merely lost in our own sea of memories, then we could do science until we're blue in the face, but what good does that do us if we're not even in the right decade?

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This is nothing more than the evolution of the God concept, is it not?  The problem I see with that is that evolution does not imply a progression toward truth... only a progression toward being more 'fit for survival'.  Could it not simply be that the modern concept of God exists in it's present form because science has completely obliterated the old ways of thinking?
That's certainly a possibility, and one I don't discount.  And in saying that it occurs to me that, while I've mentioned in other threads that I consider myself an agnostic theist, I did not remember to restate that here.  Hopefully that didn't cause any confusion.

That being said, I don't give that conjecture much credence for a few reasons:
- The scientific method became formalized around the 17th century, while most of the concept of a modern "omnimax" deity were formalized around the 3rd century.
- Empiricism, which encompasses science, did not gain much traction until the Middle Ages when Aristotle's writings were recovered from the Arabs, translated, and distributed in Europe.  By then, rationalist writings containing modern ideas about God had been circulating in Europe about ~1000 years, with many of the translators (such as Thomas Aquinas) being theologians who talked about those same concepts.
- The earliest criticisms of anthropomorphic polytheism (that I'm aware of) were from Xenophanes in the 500s BC, who rejected the Greek pantheon for a more "out there" eternal, singular, universal deity somewhat reminiscent of deism.  The earliest materialist/prescientific criticisms of God (again, that I'm aware of) were from Epicurus in the 300s BC.

So, while I doubt we'll have any way of knowing for sure, I think we'd be hard pressed to make a case that science was a driving factor for our current conception of God, as the timing just doesn't appear to work out.  You might be able to make a case with some specific doctrines--for example, the idea of Hell as a state rather than a physical place didn't become popular in Catholic theology until the 20th Century, after the scientific revolution--but I just don't see how we can say science was the driving force for the theological evolution of God.

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Furthermore, why do you think it will not continue to evolve even further than it has?  Do you honestly think that at this present time, all evolution of the God theory is suddenly going to stop because it's finally been figured out?  Don't you think the people in ancient Greece, Rome, Egypt thought the EXACT same thing about their positions?
Have I given the impression somewhere that I do not think the idea will evolve?  If so, that's the wrong impression.  I don't think I'm smart enough to have the final, most complete answer on anything, especially God.

Rather, as someone who believes God can and does reveal Himself to humanity, I'd be worried if our concepts of God stopped evolving, because that would suggest that God stopped talking, or that we stopped listening, or that we never really had a clue in the first place (an option most atheists would surely agree with.)  I'd be elated if/when it evolves further, because that would mean we have new ways of understanding God, and perhaps could lead to more people deepening their relationships with Him.

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And in another 250 years, that thought process might be considered a religious 'transitional fossil'.
Maybe.  Then again, maybe not.  Who's to say?

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That's fine, and I can see your thought processes here.  But do you have any evidence that such a being exists?  And if you do not, what makes you think it exists?  From my point of view, Aristotle's unmoved mover might be possible, but everything else is a major reach.
Yes and no.  As I mentioned earlier, I think God can and does interact with the world, and thus these interactions are evidence of God's existence.  However, they require one to both recognize that interaction of God and be right in that recognition, and even if both of those are met, the evidence is anecdotal at best, and there's always a possible alternative explanation.  For this reason, I would say that this evidence isn't really suitable as a foundation for proof of God, but rather is more of an icing on the cake for those who already believe.

Ultimately, my faith has a basis akin to axiom, which probably sounds a bit strange in a vacuum.  Hopefully, though, parts of it are starting to become a little clear with respect to my thoughts on science, objective reality, and what it means to be ontologically prior to the universe.  All of them are intertwined, but I don't want to complicate things by trying to say it all in one post.

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Also, can you please explain how a deity can be perfect and omnimax at the same time?
The definition of perfection with respect to God has changed loads of times throughout history.  When I use it, I'm generally equating it to the idea of God as absolute, so I'm basically using it as shorthand for "omnipotent, omniscience, omniprescent." 

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Yes. Just like Jesus.  Instead of a bunch of them, its just one. 
Sort of.  Though in the ancient pantheons, the anthropomorphic superhuman beings were the deities, whereas Jesus is a deity in human form.  In other words, Thor and Zeus were not human, while Jesus was.  And Thor and Zeus' deity did not extend past being superhuman, while Jesus is considered to be consubstantial with the Father as God.
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Do you think you could convince a follower of Thor that Thor does not exist?  Why or why not?
Probably not, because faith isn't usually gained or lost in conversation with a single person.

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By being a follower of a specific religion, however, you're taking it a lot further than just saying 'this appears to be the most complete picture', aren't you?  Also, how does this differ from what everyone else does with their religion?   
It's one thing to reach a conclusion, it's another to apply it.  And religions offer a community of people with similar ideas all attempting that application.  Religion allows me to express my faith in God by giving me a direction and context in which to do it.

And it doesn't differ.  I have no issues with people of other faiths.  In fact, conversations with people of other faiths generally lead me to appreciate how they express their faiths through those different beliefs.

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What is it about the atheist position gives you pause?
I'm not quite sure how to answer this just yet, and I'm hoping to end this post soon, and this post is already pretty lengthy, so I'm going to defer this to later.  It has a lot to do with my overall world view, though.

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Are you completely ruling out the idea that everything could just be natural?
No, I have not ruled that out.

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It seems that the sum total of your beliefs in God are not furnished by using the scientific method.  Do you find that the process you have used, which seems to largely be a product of philosophy and logic applied with very few corroborating facts, is better than the scientific method at determining the existence of anything? How about determining the existence of God?  If there is a difference, please explain why the existence of God is better determined by not using the scientific method.
In short, I don't think the scientific method has anything to do at all with God's existence.  It's based on naturalistic principles, and thus is operating under the assumption that the universe is based on laws.  Since the supernatural tends to break those laws, I don't see how science could ever form valid theories about the supernatural's existence/nonexistence.


No, Mooby, Santa Claus doesn’t actually live at the North Pole because, like your god, Santa Claus is imaginary. Fact is the quality of being actual. So it isn’t factual to say Santa Claus lives at the North Pole and it isn’t factual to say your god is eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent or the source of all being.
I think you are conflating a description of Santa with the reality/fictionality of Santa.  If we did a poll with the question, "True/False: Santa lives at the North Pole," what do you think the results would be?

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Are you trying to say, “Is there anything to distinguish that claim from imagination?” If so then my answer is, yes. I am not imagining the fact that you have failed to provide a factual description of your god. I’m not imagining the fact that you’ve failed to provide a shred of sound evidence or a single sound argument to show your god is real. Consequently, I’m not imagining the fact that you have completely failed to distinguish your belief in your god from imagination.
Sorry, yes.  "Distinguish."

And you're not addressing the claim I quoted.  Here is the claim:
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Without any facts, observation or experience there is nothing to distinguish your a priori god from imagination.
Is there any way to show that, in the absence of the things you mentioned, there is nothing to distinguish god from imagination?

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Let’s review your progress so far in answering the OP. You’ve failed to provide a factual description of your god. Your descriptions so far tend towards defining your god as non-existent or imaginary. You’ve failed to provide any sound evidence or sound arguments to prove beyond reasonable doubt that your god is real. You’ve failed to explain what, if anything, distinguishes your belief in your god from imagination. So far, you’ve failed to validate your belief in your god. Allowing yourself to believe an unvalidated feeling, idea or situation is true is self-deception. Consequently, it would seem that you are simply deceiving yourself.
Interesting.  Perhaps you could show me what a factual description that validates something's existence looks like?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on October 07, 2012, 12:14:43 AM
I think you are conflating a description of Santa with the reality/fictionality of Santa.  If we did a poll with the question, "True/False: Santa lives at the North Pole," what do you think the results would be?

Obviously, if you didn’t make it clear whether you were asking for the factual or fictional answer, most people would naturally assume you were asking for the fictional answer and say, “Yes.” Would you then feel justified in believing that Santa Claus is real and actually lives at the North Pole? That appears to be how you are trying to justify your religious beliefs.

However, here I am asking you specifically for a factual answer. Please provide a factual description of your god, not a description of how you believe or imagine your god to be and not a description of what people say about any god. Provide an answer only consisting of facts that can be verified and proven to be true. Please stop trying to somehow misunderstand my request. Please stop giving the kind of specious and contrived responses you’ve provided so far.

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And you're not addressing the claim I quoted.  Here is the claim:
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Without any facts, observation or experience there is nothing to distinguish your a priori god from imagination.
Is there any way to show that, in the absence of the things you mentioned, there is nothing to distinguish god from imagination?

Yes. The way to show it is to ask you to provide something that distinguishes your a priori god from imagination. Your failure to do so will show that there is nothing to distinguish your a priori god from imagination. So, please provide something that distinguishes your a priori god from imagination.

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Interesting.  Perhaps you could show me what a factual description that validates something's existence looks like?

Read almost any scientific paper that describes pretty much any real phenomenon. The thing about scientific papers is that they describe phenomena in such a way that—if you have the intelligence and resources—you can verify them for yourself. Can you show us a description of your god that comes anywhere near that?

Your constant evasion is revealing, Mooby. Is your god real or imaginary? You’ve already evaded that question three times in this thread. I’m going to keep asking until you answer it.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: JeffPT on October 07, 2012, 12:33:49 AM
Only if I'm already assuming things that can lead me to those conclusions.  If there's a Factor X that distorts my initial perception of the phone, and distorts my perception of the phone in the same way all throughout my investigation, and I'm not aware of it, how can I know my conclusion is sound?

The scientific allows for assimilation of new information such as the discovery of 'factor X'.  And the scientific method is the only method we currently have that does it's best to weed out as many possible 'factor X's' that it can.  But we can postulate an infinite number of 'factor X's' for every single phenomena that we experience in our universe.  Living our lives as if just one or 2 of those are true, however, seems a bit strange given the fact that there is no evidence of any specific 'factor X'.     

That's certainly a possibility, and one I don't discount.  And in saying that it occurs to me that, while I've mentioned in other threads that I consider myself an agnostic theist, I did not remember to restate that here.  Hopefully that didn't cause any confusion.

Yes, I remember you saying that at one point.  And I remember thinking to myself that it's an incredibly strange stance to take.  You don't know if God exists, but you live your life as if it does.  How is that different from not knowing whether leprechauns exist, but living your life as if they do? 

That being said, I don't give that conjecture much credence for a few reasons:

SNIP for brevity only...

So, while I doubt we'll have any way of knowing for sure, I think we'd be hard pressed to make a case that science was a driving factor for our current conception of God, as the timing just doesn't appear to work out.

Whether science is solely at the root of the demise of the older god theories is not something I wished to become a major point in the discussion.  In point of fact, there were probably many factors in the evolution of the god theory, science being just one of them.  Science of the likes of Gallileo, Copernicus, Newton, etc. all chipped away at the old God theories.  The fact remains that the current theories on god could be (and likely are) the 'most fit' to survive in modern society.  Just as we humans are 'most fit' to our current environment, and in another few millions years, we will be transitional fossils. 

Have I given the impression somewhere that I do not think the idea will evolve?  If so, that's the wrong impression.  I don't think I'm smart enough to have the final, most complete answer on anything, especially God.

There is a major difference here though, Mooby. God either IS, or IS NOT.  Either it exists, or it doesn't.  The evolution of the concept of God must be seen in different terms than the evolution of the human understanding of God.  If we are talking about a concept of God that is not real, then what you will see is an evolution over time that allows for the God concept to fit well with whatever society if finds itself in.  The evidence that this is likely the case rests in the fact that different versions of the supernatural have appeared for thousands of years, and all of them are fit to survive in the societies they are based out of.  If we are talking about our concept of a God that is ACTUALLY REAL, then it stands to reason that our concept must be evolving toward an eventual truth, and there it would stop. 

With no evidence to present, how would you ever find out when you had it right?  Worse yet, how do you know that you're even remotely close, given that there are an infinite number of possible deities that we can come up with?

Do you feel your theological and philosophical positions carry even a single ounce of weight in the discussion?  Do you feel that theology and philosophy are equally proficient with the scientific method at weeding out all the possible 'factor X's' that could crop up?

Rather, as someone who believes God can and does reveal Himself to humanity, I'd be worried if our concepts of God stopped evolving, because that would suggest that God stopped talking, or that we stopped listening, or that we never really had a clue in the first place (an option most atheists would surely agree with.)  I'd be elated if/when it evolves further, because that would mean we have new ways of understanding God, and perhaps could lead to more people deepening their relationships with Him.

This is the type of thing everyone talks about with you.  You're slimy (in that you like to slip through the cracks) in the way you answer questions like this.  But here's an interesting conclusion from this paragraph of yours...  The only way that our understanding of God would stop evolving is if He finally provided evidence to everyone that he existed.  Concepts evolve, Mooby.  God (the omnimax, perfect form you suggest) does not.  If our understanding stopped evolving, then we could finally say we understood God.  Until then, its just more realistic to say you haven't got a clue. 

And if God reveals himself to humanity, then why do you think your version is more likely to be real than say... the Egyptian version?  After all, if you're right and God does reveal himself to humanity, then the form he revealed to the Egyptians was completely different than the form he reveals to you.  Which one is right?  Maybe you evolved away from the correct concept a long time ago? 

Yes and no.  As I mentioned earlier, I think God can and does interact with the world, and thus these interactions are evidence of God's existence.  However, they require one to both recognize that interaction of God and be right in that recognition, and even if both of those are met, the evidence is anecdotal at best, and there's always a possible alternative explanation.  For this reason, I would say that this evidence isn't really suitable as a foundation for proof of God, but rather is more of an icing on the cake for those who already believe.

In your opinion, what general characteristics are present in situations where God has interacted with the world?  What distinguishes it from non-God interactions?   

The definition of perfection with respect to God has changed loads of times throughout history.  When I use it, I'm generally equating it to the idea of God as absolute, so I'm basically using it as shorthand for "omnipotent, omniscience, omniprescent." 

So basically, not the way normal people use the world 'perfect'. 

Sort of.  Though in the ancient pantheons, the anthropomorphic superhuman beings were the deities, whereas Jesus is a deity in human form.

An evolution of the concept, exactly.  Evolution isn't wholesale change... it's slight modification over time. 

In other words, Thor and Zeus were not human, while Jesus was.

But God was not human when he 'interacted' with Mary, in much the same way Zeus was not human (though he pretended he was) when he mated with Alcmene which gave rise to Hercules.  Another slight modification. 

And Thor and Zeus' deity did not extend past being superhuman, while Jesus is considered to be consubstantial with the Father as God.

He is considered that now, but prior to the Council of Nicea, there were many different opinions on that.  That concept evolved as well.  Jesus was not always thought of as the same as God. 

In short, I don't think the scientific method has anything to do at all with God's existence.  It's based on naturalistic principles, and thus is operating under the assumption that the universe is based on laws.  Since the supernatural tends to break those laws, I don't see how science could ever form valid theories about the supernatural's existence/nonexistence.

If the supernatural exists, then science may not be able to reach proper conclusions about it, but science is the only way for us to reliably, consistently demonstrate the breaking of the natural laws in the first place.  Can you show me, or think of a study which shows that the supernatural has ever broken a single one of the universal laws?  If not, then why would you say it does? 


Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on October 07, 2012, 03:33:02 AM
If you follow Western theological traditions and philosophical branches such as metaphysics, the god that emerges is an infinite, perfect being.
 

I don't believe God is an entity.  If you don't understand that difference, you are not going to understand any of my posts in this thread, including this one.

Are you surprised, when in the same response you talk about "god the being" and "god the non-entity"?  Perhaps the problem is that you are not successfully communicating what it is you believe.

So why not start from the very beginning and describe quite clearly what you mean when you say the word "god".  Don't bother with telling us (again) how many years of study of thousands of years of interest has led you to this point.  Just descibe the being, or the non-entity.

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: nogodsforme on October 07, 2012, 09:23:00 PM
If you follow Western theological traditions and philosophical branches such as metaphysics, the god that emerges is an infinite, perfect being.
 

I don't believe God is an entity.  If you don't understand that difference, you are not going to understand any of my posts in this thread, including this one.

Are you surprised, when in the same response you talk about "god the being" and "god the non-entity"?  Perhaps the problem is that you are not successfully communicating what it is you believe.

So why not start from the very beginning and describe quite clearly what you mean when you say the word "god".  Don't bother with telling us (again) how many years of study of thousands of years of interest has led you to this point.  Just descibe the being, or the non-entity.

(my bolding)

That's the whole problem here. Mooby can't do that. Just like he can't tell us the most basic things, like whether his god is real or imaginary, an entitiy or a being or a force or a presence, and how to know the difference. But he can waste a lot of words and time obfuscating, picking apart our statements and avoiding our questions with semantic interludes.

I imagine him snickering as he types. I know I am. :D
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Add Homonym on October 07, 2012, 11:52:03 PM
I liked it when God just hung around in the temple and sniffed animal fat.

But, no, no; that had to evolve into an all-loving God that either forgave you, if you believed his son died for you, or forgave you if you led a perfect life, which avoided all major forms of productivity and decisiveness.

My concept of God is now so vast, that my God cares if I watch porn on youtube, and my p.p. drips a bit of semen. Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great.

You can say what you like about my great God, but he does care. He cares about the worms growing in African legs. He cares deeply about them, so deeply that he would have a fit, if you killed any of them.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Add Homonym on October 07, 2012, 11:57:14 PM
Actually, my concept of God just evolved a bit more. He now no longer gives a shit about anything, because he is going through a depressive phase, which is common to a lot of gods, around the 13.7 billion year mark. He watched us evolve through the Cenozoic era, and got so bored waiting, that he forgot about us entirely, and will not drop in on us again, until the next snowball Earth.

Whereupon, he will then care deeply about how much semen I emit, and who I fuck.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on October 08, 2012, 08:36:20 AM
(Mooby) can't tell us the most basic things, like whether his god is real or imaginary, an entitiy or a being or a force or a presence, and how to know the difference.

In 7 posts, Mooby has said quite a lot.....

Quote from: Mooby
The definition of perfection with respect to God has changed loads of times throughout history.  When I use it, I'm generally equating it to the idea of God as absolute, so I'm basically using it as shorthand for "omnipotent, omniscience, omniprescent."

Zeus, Thor, and Vishnu are all conceptions of God.

In particular, I do not believe God is a phenomenon, if by "phenomenon" you mean something that is both a posteriori (dependent on experience) and empirical (based on repeated observation).....my belief is primarily a priori (independent of experience

God can and does interact with the world, and thus these interactions are evidence of God's existence.  However, they require one to both recognize that interaction of God and be right in that recognition, and even if both of those are met, the evidence is anecdotal at best, and there's always a possible alternative explanation.  For this reason, I would say that this evidence isn't really suitable as a foundation for proof of God

God can be observed, but that He's not observable as a phenomenon.  It might be more clear to say that God can cause phenomenon and/or make Himself known directly to our senses, but He is not a constantly observable phenomenon like your computer.

God is ontologically prior to experience, observation, detection, emotions, internal feelings, and imagination……my imagination comes from me, and I come from the universe, so a god prior to the universe could not come from me

I don't believe God is an entity. 

I'd be worried if our concepts of God stopped evolving, because that would suggest that God stopped talking, or that we stopped listening, or that we never really had a clue in the first place (an option most atheists would surely agree with.)  I'd be elated if/when it evolves further, because that would mean we have new ways of understanding God, and perhaps could lead to more people deepening their relationships with Him.

I'll try and summarise.

"God is omnipotent, omniscience, omnipresent.  It is not a being, although people have in the past assigned human traits and form to it.  It affects the universe, which can be detected, but never in a way that would lead to conclusive proof of its existence.  There is no static form of "god" that can be pointed to and labelled as correct, as our understanding keeps changing.  I could not be imagining god, as that god existed before me."

Hmmm.  Hopefully I've summarised those last 3 pages Mooby.  If there is anything material I've left out, I’d be grateful if you'd let me know - ideally in as concise a form as possible.

Assuming I've covered the salient points, I have a couple questions.

Firstly, given that there is no means of detecting "god", on what basis can you conclude that god existed prior to you?  Is this a "there had to be something to create everything" argument, or something else?

Secondly, you seem to be saying "believe first", and you can then recognise what god does…because there is nothing god does that can be pointed and to say "ONLY god could have done that".  But if there is nothing to point at that proves god - and since our conception of what-the-heck god IS is perpetually changing, on what basis can anyone assign any degree of "truth" to their conception?  Surely it is at least as likely that our conceptions are gradually getting further and further away from what god is, than that we are getting closer?

Final question.  God can do anything, knows everything, is everywhere.  Okay.  But given all that, is that god sentient in any way?  Does it have preferences, or plans, or goals?  I note that you have at no point noted it as being omni-benevolent…..does this god "care"?

Perhaps more importantly, why should I?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jdawg70 on October 08, 2012, 06:25:25 PM
Can you expound on this a bit more?  I suspect that you can elaborate on the reasons why a screwdriver is good for screwing screws and terrible for tightening bolts.  Do you think you could do something similar for why the scientific method is good for <insert some descriptor here> and terrible for <insert another descriptor here>?
Sure!

Empiricism is the synthesis of ideas based on experiences.  The scientific method is great for generalizing those ideas into formal theories about how the world works.  For instance, a doctor may use a new treatment on a case and note it worked.  She may then use it on all her patients with a similar presentation, and get positive results.  If she treats new cases the same way based on experience, it's an empirical treatment.  If she then researches this treatment using the scientific method in a randomized, controlled trial, she could turn it into a scientific theory (and then probably try to publish it so others could replicate her results).  So science is great for turning subjective observations into generalizable theories with minimized bias.

However, you may notice above that the scientific method relies on empiricism, and thus is limited to what can be observed empirically.  That's where we start to run into limitations: if we're using empiricism as our source of knowledge, then how to we come to know the validity of "Empiricism is a valid source of knowledge?"  We can't do it empirically, as it's circular.  Also, we have no reason to think that we can potentially observe everything that exists, or that observation is the only way we can know anything about what exists.  So we're left with a bubble of knowledge somewhere within the set of all possible knowledge, and we really don't know how much of the set it encompasses or how well it does it. 

So in short, science is terrible at doing anything outside its bubble.
I guess we could use non-empiricism as a source for knowledge, but in that case you damn well better be prepared for Galactus' return to devour the Earth.

Look, I need some means of separating fantasy from reality.  If you want to claim that observation is too limiting, can you maybe throw me a bone and give me some other method of separating fantasy from reality?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Mooby on October 08, 2012, 10:43:08 PM
Yes. The way to show it is to ask you to provide something that distinguishes your a priori god from imagination. Your failure to do so will show that there is nothing to distinguish your a priori god from imagination.
How does my failure to do something have any bearing on whether your claims are objectively true?

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Interesting.  Perhaps you could show me what a factual description that validates something's existence looks like?

Read almost any scientific paper that describes pretty much any real phenomenon.
I'll take that as a "no," then.

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The thing about scientific papers is that they describe phenomena in such a way that—if you have the intelligence and resources—you can verify them for yourself.
You and I must be reading different papers, then.  I've yet to see anything close to what I'd consider a verified description of a phenomenon in them, but then again, I'm only guessing at what you have in mind.

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Your constant evasion is revealing, Mooby. Is your god real or imaginary? You’ve already evaded that question three times in this thread. I’m going to keep asking until you answer it.
I'm a theist.  I believe God is real by definition.  If I thought God was imaginary, I'd be an atheist.


Yes, I remember you saying that at one point.  And I remember thinking to myself that it's an incredibly strange stance to take.  You don't know if God exists, but you live your life as if it does.  How is that different from not knowing whether leprechauns exist, but living your life as if they do?
It's not.  The question's the same: "Ok, I don't know whether leprechauns exist.  Now what?"  The answer might be different depending on loads of different factors, though.

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The fact remains that the current theories on god could be (and likely are) the 'most fit' to survive in modern society.
Well yes, by definition anything that survives is "fit."  Where are you going with this, though?

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If we are talking about our concept of a God that is ACTUALLY REAL, then it stands to reason that our concept must be evolving toward an eventual truth, and there it would stop. 
Oh, I see.  Not to get too far into specific religious views, but I believe that due to God's infinitude vs. our finite minds that any attempt at fully describing God is going to be an approximation.  So I personally don't think theists will ever all agree on one definitive "true" version of God.

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With no evidence to present, how would you ever find out when you had it right?  Worse yet, how do you know that you're even remotely close, given that there are an infinite number of possible deities that we can come up with?
As I've suggested before with some of the other deities or hypothetical creators, as you move up in scale these "infinite" deities all start to blend together.  For instance, the idea of an infinite omnimax deity puts serious constraints on polytheism, unless you elevate one deity above the rest, which tends towards a God/demigods or God/angels system.  That would also eliminate finite gods like Zeus and Thor, since they don't meet the mark.  In other words, I think the evolution of the concept of God pushes us in a direction where eventually we're all describing the same deity with a different name.

So, for me it's not a matter of picking one god from thousands of gods; it's about finding the one God they're all pointing towards.  And when you look at it that way, you're suddenly not choosing from infinitely many gods anymore; you're constructing your concept of a single one.

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Do you feel your theological and philosophical positions carry even a single ounce of weight in the discussion?
I'm not sure what you're asking, since this discussion is basically all about my theological and philosophical positions.

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Do you feel that theology and philosophy are equally proficient with the scientific method at weeding out all the possible 'factor X's' that could crop up?
I think they're equally unproficient at it.

I think you misunderstand what I mean by Factor X.  I'm talking about a factor that is present from before we start the science until after we're done it, and is there when we restart it the next time.  I'm not talking about a confounding variable; I'm talking about the reality in which the experiment was conducted.

If one of the NPCs in Skyrim suddenly gained rational thought and started doing science, but wasn't aware he was in a video game, how could he possibly weed out that Factor X?  After 1000 experiments proving that magic exists and 1000 experiments failing to show electricity is possible, at what point would he discover that his science is only describing someone else's simulation and have no bearing on objective reality?  How does one possibly weed out that Factor X?

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In your opinion, what general characteristics are present in situations where God has interacted with the world?  What distinguishes it from non-God interactions?
I don't think there are any defining characteristics, since God is unrestricted in His ability to interact with the world.  The ones that we note are the ones that appear to define scientific principles, but I have no guess at what proportion of those are true interactions and what proportion of interactions are of that type.   

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He is considered that now, but prior to the Council of Nicea, there were many different opinions on that.  That concept evolved as well.  Jesus was not always thought of as the same as God.
I am aware of that.  Christian doctrines grew over time.

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Can you show me, or think of a study which shows that the supernatural has ever broken a single one of the universal laws?  If not, then why would you say it does?
I don't know of any published studies that conclude supernatural origins for observed miracles.  But then again, science doesn't investigate phenomena under the assumption that the supernatural exists.

Anyways, that's all I have time for tonight, hopefully I can finish the rest tomorrow.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on October 08, 2012, 11:36:11 PM
How does my failure to do something have any bearing on whether your claims are objectively true?

It demonstrates that you have nothing to distinguish your god from an imaginary god. The total absence of anything to distinguish your god from an imaginary god proves you are imagining your god. All you need to do to prove me wrong is to provide something that distinguishes your god from an imaginary god so by all means do that. Provide something—anything—that distinguishes your god from an imaginary god.

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I'll take that as a "no," then.

Very well then, let’s try this instead. Think of a real person with whom you have a personal relationship. Now, think about all the facts you would be able to provide if I asked you for a factual description of that person. For example, you could provide one or more of the following: the person’s height, weight, gender, skin colour, eye colour, hair colour or distinguishing features or marks. These could all potentially be verified by me or almost anyone else by examining the person ourselves. Can you provide any such facts about your god with whom you also claim to have a personal relationship? I’ll tell you what, let’s start with the simplest and most basic fact: what is your god’s composition? Is your god composed of matter or energy? Is it a force? If it is none of those then what is it? Please provide facts that could potentially be verified by me or anyone else.

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I'm a theist.  I believe God is real by definition.  If I thought God was imaginary, I'd be an atheist.
[bold mine]

I’m not asking for beliefs, Mooby. I’ve made it clear time and time again throughout this thread that I’m asking for facts. Real means actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact not believed to exist or occur. What you believe has no bearing on the truth. I’m asking for the truth. So, for the fifth time, is your god real or imaginary?

You’ve already stated in this thread that you don’t believe your god is an entity or a phenomenon, but you’ve also stated in a previous thread that you have a personal relationship with it. Please provide a cogent explanation for how you can have a personal relationship with something that has no distinct and independent existence and cannot even be observed to exist.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on October 09, 2012, 12:53:33 AM
I think you misunderstand what I mean by Factor X.  I'm talking about a factor that is present from before we start the science until after we're done it, and is there when we restart it the next time.  I'm not talking about a confounding variable; I'm talking about the reality in which the experiment was conducted.

If one of the NPCs in Skyrim suddenly gained rational thought and started doing science, but wasn't aware he was in a video game, how could he possibly weed out that Factor X?  After 1000 experiments proving that magic exists and 1000 experiments failing to show electricity is possible, at what point would he discover that his science is only describing someone else's simulation and have no bearing on objective reality?  How does one possibly weed out that Factor X?

What an interesting point.  I presume the parallel is that we are in a similar "bubble" of reality that we cannot break out of or establish the truth or otherwise of the potential creator that exists outside?

Our Skyrim NPC could establish a multitude of what he called "facts" about his world, and may well conjecture about what kind of being created the "real" world that he lives in....but how close at all could he get to establishing what the "true god" was like?  Given that we know that his reality is a construct inside ours, we can laugh and be sure that any "god" he arrives at, whether by logic or belief, is going to be vastly and significantly wrong.

So if the Skyrim/Mooby&Anfauglir parallel holds, then you have no way of determining if we too live in a 2nd or 3rd or 8th level bubble, or if the "god" you have arrived at is really the omnipotent prime you describe it as being, or merely a bespectacled Vl'Hurg sitting in his mother's attic jerking off while he downloads the latest update for MoobyworldTM.  By introducing this parallel, it appears that you are saying "we can't test for god in any way, so I go with what feels right to me, since the Truth is impossible to determine" - would that be correct?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jdawg70 on October 09, 2012, 09:11:48 AM
So, for me it's not a matter of picking one god from thousands of gods; it's about finding the one God they're all pointing towards.  And when you look at it that way, you're suddenly not choosing from infinitely many gods anymore; you're constructing your concept of a single one.
And what are the building materials for this construction?  Are they any different to the materials that one uses to, say, construct a fictional story?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Add Homonym on October 09, 2012, 09:52:57 AM
So, for me it's not a matter of picking one god from thousands of gods; it's about finding the one God they're all pointing towards.  And when you look at it that way, you're suddenly not choosing from infinitely many gods anymore; you're constructing your concept of a single one.

They aren't pointing anywhere, unless you think that creation of God is done democratically, and according to the needs and desperation of humans.

An omnimax God is only omnimax, if he uses his powers to intervene. The God who created this universe may well be a living, breathing part of it, but if he does nothing arbitrary, outside the initial start variables, then he is (relatively) not omnipotent. If he is a part of us, you could argue that he knows what we are thinking, and is therefore omnipresent -- unless he doesn't give a rats arse, or transfer the information outside of us, in which case he is not listening, and is (relatively) not omnipresent. ETC.

Or, put another factor X way, if we are in a simulation, the creator of that simulation may have no other purpose than for the simulation to run without interference. The creator refuses to intervene, because it spoils the purpose of running it. The creator refuses to look at anything besides certain amusing events, or the end-point, because the creator has no use for anything else, or couldn't handle the information from trillions of parallel simulations.

If this is the case, then in what way is this God similar to anything invented by humans in ages past? This God has no use to us.

Humans have requirements: justice, immortality, security. When would the real God deliver any of these to us?

When we love our neighbour?
When we study Eck, and learn soul travel?
When we take LSD and another drug we haven't discovered yet?
In a few hundred thousand years, when we have developed a God sensing mutation?
When we say "Ooompaloopadyne"?
When we sacrifice our child?
When we kill our neighbour?
Never?

One of the most disturbing things that modern science has discovered, is the amount of time that humans have been around. None of the major religions can cope with this factor, so they all fall in a screaming heap of denial about it. It doesn't make religious sense that we have been sitting on our arses for 200,000 years, or that we evolved from animals. That steady gradient from animal to human is a real problem, because it means that animals are also part of the theology, or they are not, and also we are not, because we are still too animal. Buddhism has factored this in a bit, but it still makes little sense to bother being a Buddhist.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jdawg70 on October 09, 2012, 10:02:59 AM
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I'm a theist.  I believe God is real by definition.  If I thought God was imaginary, I'd be an atheist.
[bold mine]

I’m not asking for beliefs, Mooby. I’ve made it clear time and time again throughout this thread that I’m asking for facts. Real means actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact not believed to exist or occur. What you believe has no bearing on the truth. I’m asking for the truth. So, for the fifth time, is your god real or imaginary?
I'm not sure you're going to get anywhere with this, 3sigma.  Mooby is basically one experimental college film away from being a full-blown solipsist.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: nogodsforme on October 09, 2012, 03:58:42 PM
^^^^Oh noes! Are we going to have to watch Mooby watching fruit rot? Would be as useful as this thread, but less entertaining.

As with many theists, we could put just about any imaginary or unlikely creature in Mooby's sentences in place of "god" and we would know as much. Giant Love Unicorn. The girl from Planet Claire. Leza of the Kongo. Big Bird.

And, how is monotheism is more "evolved" or accurate than polytheism?  One god belief is moving towards accuracy? A billion Hindus and millions of indigenous folks all over the world beg to differ. Since there is no objective evidence for any gods, why would one-god Christians think they are more likely to be right than the ancient Egyptians, Aztecs, Norse, Greeks or Romans? I don't get that at all. Because one is easier to remember? Is being monolingual somehow more advanced or evolved or accurate than being multilingual?

I guess if one god is better than many, no gods is best of all! Nogods ends with a pun for the win!
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Mooby on October 11, 2012, 09:35:59 PM
This is a catch-up before I read the new replies.  Responses will be brief, so let me know if any are inadequate.

Are you surprised, when in the same response you talk about "god the being" and "god the non-entity"?  Perhaps the problem is that you are not successfully communicating what it is you believe.
Surprised?  No.  But I use two different words (being and entity) to clarify a distinction I've made in multiple posts so far:

Being
[. . .]existence is a principle (a source) of being, not a previous source, but one which is continually in effect. The stage is set for the concept of God as the cause of all existence, who, as the Almighty, holds everything actual without reason or explanation as an act purely of will. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Being)

Entity
An entity is something that exists by itself, although it need not be of material existence. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entity)

In short, being is the state of existing, while an entity is the thing that exists.  Similarly, though less precise, being is like a cause while an entity is like an effect.  I believe that God is both pure being and the source of all being (Being).  Though He can interact physically with the universe and manifest as an entity (Jesus,) I don't believe being an entity is a necessary part of His existence.  For this reason, God cannot be investigated as an entity, which is what science investigates.


Firstly, given that there is no means of detecting "god", on what basis can you conclude that god existed prior to you?  Is this a "there had to be something to create everything" argument, or something else?
As I mentioned to JeffPT, it's mostly an axiomatic assumption born from a rather inconvenient issue with reality that I've been alluding to, which I intend to expand on as we go.  Though I do find the uncreated creator to be consistent and satisfying with my views (along with several other logical arguments), I don't really consider it the basis of my faith.

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Secondly, you seem to be saying "believe first", and you can then recognise what god does…because there is nothing god does that can be pointed and to say "ONLY god could have done that".  But if there is nothing to point at that proves god - and since our conception of what-the-heck god IS is perpetually changing, on what basis can anyone assign any degree of "truth" to their conception?  Surely it is at least as likely that our conceptions are gradually getting further and further away from what god is, than that we are getting closer?
If we are drifting further away from, say, the ancient polytheists, then I'm not sure the problem is particularly relevant.  Such entities are basically evolved humans, like the Highlander or the X-Men or Superman.  If we identify them and learn about them, great.  If not, hopefully their feelings won't be hurt too bad by our failure to find them.

That being said, even if we do give such entities the "god" title, I'm not sure how you arrived at your conclusion that we're equally likely to be drifting towards or away from the correct description.  I gave some reasons in earlier posts why I think setting our sights higher up the ontological ladder is giving us a better view of God, and I can't immediately conceive of equally good reasons why we should be heading in the opposite direction.  Perhaps you have some insights I'm missing.

Assigning truth to conceptions is part of that pesky problem I mentioned earlier.  In short, I don't think we can.

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Final question.  God can do anything, knows everything, is everywhere.  Okay.  But given all that, is that god sentient in any way?  Does it have preferences, or plans, or goals?  I note that you have at no point noted it as being omni-benevolent…..does this god "care"?
Yes, I believe He has a plan, though I normally don't get into it for a couple reasons:
- I find it hard to describe such things without using language that personifies God as a human entity, making it less clear what I actually believe;
- Most theists regard this area as mysterious and not meant to be totally understood by humans, making it an especially challenging area to discuss with non-believers;
- These considerations are getting into religious views, since we're starting to talk about why God made us, what our purpose is, and what He expects back from us.

I see omnibenevolence as something that follows from the rest of God's traits rather than as its own trait as it is often listed.  But again, that's getting into religious views.

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Perhaps more importantly, why should I?
That's ultimately up to you to decide, but I'd say it comes down to your direct goals and relevance to those goals.  For instance, if one of your goals is to understand the fundamental truths about reality, then whether God exists or not is about as fundamental as it gets, so God's existence directly affects your goal.  Similarly, if your goal is to find whether life has a purpose, then whether a God exists with an overarching plan directly affects your goal.

On the other hand, if your goal is to achieve happiness, then God's existence might be relevant if it's possible that He's passed on some inside info.  Or, if God's existence implies an afterlife, His existence might be relevant as the timeline for some of your goals may change (i.e. happiness until death vs. happiness for eternity.)


Look, I need some means of separating fantasy from reality.  If you want to claim that observation is too limiting, can you maybe throw me a bone and give me some other method of separating fantasy from reality?
I wish I could.  It would certainly make things more convenient.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Mooby on October 11, 2012, 10:39:23 PM
It demonstrates that you have nothing to distinguish your god from an imaginary god. The total absence of anything to distinguish your god from an imaginary god proves you are imagining your god.
The latter does not follow from the former.  The absence of me throwing a ball to your satisfaction does not prove a ball cannot be thrown, the absence of me distinguishing George Foreman from Hulk Hogan to your satisfaction does not prove George Foreman is Hulk Hogan, and the absence of me distinguishing God from imagination to your satisfaction does not prove God is imagined.  You can't simply take two subjective things--my descriptions in my posts and your goalpost for distinguishing (which so far seems to be fluid)--and combine them together to establish an objective fact.

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I’ll tell you what, let’s start with the simplest and most basic fact: what is your god’s composition? Is your god composed of matter or energy? Is it a force? If it is none of those then what is it? Please provide facts that could potentially be verified by me or anyone else.
Again, I don't believe God is an entity.  Your request basically eliminates any deity that is not a materialistic god, which pretty much restricts you to discussing stuff like Epicureanism. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicureanism#Religion)  Which is all well and good, but I don't know of any religion like that practiced in the last 2300 years.  Maybe there's still a few around, but if so I doubt they're in large enough quantities to have members frequently crossing paths with WWGHA.

You say in your OP you want to discuss God, particularly as I believe in Him.  However, despite saying, "The first thing we need to do is determine exactly what it is you believe in," you don't really seem to be all that interested in what anyone actually believes.  Really, you only seem interested in claiming that a deity that isn't experienced in how you, as a nonbeliever, believe should it be experienced is imaginary.

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I’m not asking for beliefs, Mooby. I’ve made it clear time and time again throughout this thread that I’m asking for facts. Real means actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact not believed to exist or occur.
And I've made it increasingly clear that I don't think we have any way of determining any facts, including God.  Which is why I invited you to show me some facts.  You've given me a few things I can try to observe about another person--eye color, height, weight--but I have no way of knowing if any of those things are facts.

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You’ve already stated in this thread that you don’t believe your god is an entity or a phenomenon, but you’ve also stated in a previous thread that you have a personal relationship with it. Please provide a cogent explanation for how you can have a personal relationship with something that has no distinct and independent existence and cannot even be observed to exist.
I also told you in another thread that it would be a long, very involved discussion, which is precisely why I refused to do it in that thread.  We are so far from the point where I have a personal relationship with God that I don't know how I'd begin to explain it from this juncture, how long it would take, or how worthwhile the explanation would be.

What an interesting point.  I presume the parallel is that we are in a similar "bubble" of reality that we cannot break out of or establish the truth or otherwise of the potential creator that exists outside?
Basically.  You, me, and everyone else are trapped in bubbles formed by our senses.  Even if we tentatively accept their accuracy, our observations tell us that we only sense a small sliver of reality, and what we see/hear/smell/etc. is radically different from what other organisms experience.  Even as a little kid I remembering wondering, "What if what I see as 'green' is what everyone else sees as 'yellow' but I don't know the difference because I learned to assign the 'green' label to the color I'm seeing?"  And of course, those thought experiments are silly to an extent (though studies show women can see more reds than men), but they illustrate a fundamental issue with our sense perceptions.

And then we get to stuff like the fact that our brains are lazy and just weave stimuli together so that they make sense (why stuff like optical illusions work) and the fact that our memories are completely unreliable, and that we can observe (both in ourselves and others) situations in which our senses fail.

Finally, while I don't necessarily believe in any alternate reality conjectures such as the evolutionary argument against naturalism (which I mentioned in another thread), the simulation argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_reality#Simulation_argument) (which Skyrim illustrates), brain in a vat, Matrix, solipsism, metaphysical nihilism, etc., I think they illustrate an important component of our bubble: that even if our senses are intact, they can only interpret what they are presented.  And if that something is inaccurate, we can't get the right answer.

So we experience the world (which may be unreliable) through our senses (which can be unreliable), and interpret them through our brain (which is unreliable).  How, then, can we confidently say our beliefs are reliable?

We could try sticking to just theoretical knowledge, but even that has a problem: the Munchhausen Trilemma. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchhausen_Trilemma)

So at the end of the day, the question becomes, "What can we know?"

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Our Skyrim NPC could establish a multitude of what he called "facts" about his world, and may well conjecture about what kind of being created the "real" world that he lives in....but how close at all could he get to establishing what the "true god" was like?  Given that we know that his reality is a construct inside ours, we can laugh and be sure that any "god" he arrives at, whether by logic or belief, is going to be vastly and significantly wrong.
Possibly.  Though if he's contemplating a "first cause" deity, I don't see how his conclusions would be that far off from ours.

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So if the Skyrim/Mooby&Anfauglir parallel holds, then you have no way of determining if we too live in a 2nd or 3rd or 8th level bubble, or if the "god" you have arrived at is really the omnipotent prime you describe it as being, or merely a bespectacled Vl'Hurg sitting in his mother's attic jerking off while he downloads the latest update for MoobyworldTM.
Correct

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By introducing this parallel, it appears that you are saying "we can't test for god in any way, so I go with what feels right to me, since the Truth is impossible to determine" - would that be correct?
Not quite.  It's not really a matter of feeling right as it is a way of constructing a world view.  The rest looks fairly close.


They aren't pointing anywhere, unless you think that creation of God is done democratically, and according to the needs and desperation of humans.
You don't think it's possible to look at what's out there and identify trends?

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An omnimax God is only omnimax, if he uses his powers to intervene.
How do you figure?  I've always seen omnimax traits as describing potential or ability.

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If this is the case, then in what way is this God similar to anything invented by humans in ages past? This God has no use to us.
I agree, a deistic deity has little relevance for us outside of just knowing it exists for the sake of knowing it exists.

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on October 12, 2012, 12:02:47 AM
The latter does not follow from the former.  The absence of me throwing a ball to your satisfaction does not prove a ball cannot be thrown, the absence of me distinguishing George Foreman from Hulk Hogan to your satisfaction does not prove George Foreman is Hulk Hogan, and the absence of me distinguishing God from imagination to your satisfaction does not prove God is imagined.

However, that isn’t what I said. I didn’t say it proves your god is imagined. I said it proves you are imagining it. If you cannot distinguish your god from an imaginary god then you must be imagining it. You claim your god exists, but if, as you claim, it doesn’t have a material existence then it must necessarily exist only in your imagination.

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Again, I don't believe God is an entity.  Your request basically eliminates any deity that is not a materialistic god…

Saying your god is an immaterial nonentity defines it out of existence, which again shows you must be imagining it.

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And I've made it increasingly clear that I don't think we have any way of determining any facts, including God.  Which is why I invited you to show me some facts.  You've given me a few things I can try to observe about another person--eye color, height, weight--but I have no way of knowing if any of those things are facts.

As jdawg70 warned, Mooby retreats into solipsism. In making those statements, Mooby, you are admitting you do not have and cannot provide a single fact about your god. Without a single fact to support your god’s existence, you must necessarily be imagining it. And, of course, it goes without saying that, yet again, you’ve evaded my question, “Is your god real or imaginary?”

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We are so far from the point where I have a personal relationship with God that I don't know how I'd begin to explain it from this juncture, how long it would take, or how worthwhile the explanation would be.

I suspect any such “explanation” would be completely worthless. Your definition of a personal relationship is probably so far from common usage as to be meaningless.

Let’s review your progress again, Mooby. You’ve failed to provide a factual description of your god. You’ve failed to provide a shred of sound evidence or a single sound argument to prove beyond reasonable doubt that your god is real. You’ve failed to explain what, if anything, distinguishes your god from an imaginary god. In short, you’ve failed to validate your belief in any way at all.

In addition, you’ve admitted your god is immaterial, a nonentity and cannot be observed. You’ve effectively defined your god out of existence. Your claim to have a “personal relationship” with it defies all reason and logic, except perhaps in the fantasy realm of Moobyworld.

Now, given that you’ve admitted to having zero facts about your god and given that real means actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact, I’ll ask my question for the sixth time in this thread. Is your god real or imaginary? Don’t tell us what you believe. Your beliefs have no bearing on the truth. Don’t retreat into solipsism. Just give us the truth.

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Add Homonym on October 12, 2012, 08:48:40 AM
They aren't pointing anywhere, unless you think that creation of God is done democratically, and according to the needs and desperation of humans.
You don't think it's possible to look at what's out there and identify trends?

Examples of trend spotting that may or may not work:
- People look for trends in the market, but in the end, it's its own master.
- There is a trend towards the north polar ice sheet disappearing. It may be going, or it may not be.
- There is a trend towards people using Facebook. If the trend continues, the whole world will be using Facebook.. unless they switch to the next trendy thing.
- There is a trend towards skirts going upwards, until they go downwards
- There is a trend towards people believing the next trendy explanation of what causes heart disease, and then finding it's not correct 8 years later.
- There is a trend towards physicists believing in the Many World's Interpretation, therefore it must be correct
- There is a trend towards the standard model of QM being correct, even though everyone knows it can't be correct.
- There is a trend towards atheism.

People have been harping on about God for about 2500 years, and the best we have got is brain surgeons saying they were brain dead, and saw pink fluffy clouds.  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2214836/It-place-clouds-big-puffy-pink-white-The-prominent-neurosurgeon-convinced-theres-heaven-body-experience.html
... or, this one, who says the opposite..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGQDkCi-OIY

God appears to speak to us through liars, because no honest people appear to be in contact with him. Therefore, when you do a trending analysis, you are doing a weighted average which includes liars, lunies and liberal do-gooders.

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An omnimax God is only omnimax, if he uses his powers to intervene.
How do you figure?  I've always seen omnimax traits as describing potential or ability.

Say I'm a God who creates a multiverse; the expression of everything that can possibly be. I must be powerful, because I dunnit. If I don't intervene in one universe, then it means that nothing is supernatural in that universe. Or, to put it another way, God is nothing to that universe.

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on October 13, 2012, 06:48:12 PM
You say in your OP you want to discuss God, particularly as I believe in Him.  However, despite saying, "The first thing we need to do is determine exactly what it is you believe in," you don't really seem to be all that interested in what anyone actually believes.  Really, you only seem interested in claiming that a deity that isn't experienced in how you, as a nonbeliever, believe should it be experienced is imaginary.

I didn’t respond to this in my last post, but I don’t want you to think that I am dismissing anything you say out of hand so let’s explore this, Mooby. I am trying to discover what you actually believe in, but your descriptions are so vague and nebulous as to be useless. All you’ve done is tell us what your god isn’t and what can’t be used to investigate it. You haven’t told us what it actually is and what can be used to investigate it. You seem unable or unwilling to provide a description of your god that can be investigated and verified.

You’ve said you don’t believe your god is an entity, which means you don’t think it has a separate and independent existence. If it isn’t an entity with a separate, independent existence then what is it? On what is its existence dependent?

You’ve said you don’t believe your god is a phenomenon, which means it cannot be observed or known through the senses. If your god isn’t a phenomenon then what is it? If your god cannot be observed or known through the senses then how do you experience it?

You complain that my request for a factual description of your god eliminates any deity that is not a material god, which implies that your god is not a material god. Is your god material or immaterial? Does your god physically exist or is it entirely within people’s minds?

You’ve constantly evaded my requests to provide even the most basic description of your god. You won’t provide a straight answer to the question “Is your god real or imaginary?” and you ignored my questions about your god’s basic composition. Is your god composed of matter or energy? Is it a force? If it is none of those then what is it?

So instead of telling us what your god isn’t and how it can’t be investigated, tell us what it actually is and how it can be investigated. Provide a description that can be investigated and verified. Then perhaps you can explain how you have a “personal relationship” with it.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: nogodsforme on October 14, 2012, 07:53:01 PM
Ahh, but you see, little 3sigma, Mooby's god cannot be investigated empirically, described factually or experienced through the senses. His god is not an entity, a being, or a force. It is neither real nor imaginary.

Yet, for 2500 years people have been somehow investigating, describing, and experiencing his god, even though they have called it by other names and thought it was several different gods, or decided that they were actually dealing with natural forces after all. 

Mooby knows that his god exists. Because the universe is here and b)all those people could not have been mistaken or just making sh!t up.

And that is all we will ever know about Mooby's god:

Basically a big scoop of argument from ignorance (how else could the universe get here?) plus a side order of argumentum ad populum (lots of other people think god exists, too!) covered in lots of philosophical Gish Gallop to create a delicious, but strangely dissatisfying religious word salad.

Sarah Palin eat your heart out. &)
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jdawg70 on October 14, 2012, 09:13:21 PM
And that is all we will ever know about Mooby's god:
Well, that and that Mooby has a personal relationship with him/her/it/that/something.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Mooby on October 20, 2012, 11:03:17 PM
I said it proves you are imagining it. If you cannot distinguish your god from an imaginary god then you must be imagining it.
How does it show it?

Whether you allege I or people in general are imagining God, my criticism still stands.  If I'm unable to distinguish Barack Obama from my imagination to your satisfaction, that doesn't mean I'm imagining Barack Obama.  It simply means that I currently have not met whatever subjective standards you've set forth as your goalpost for being personally satisfied.

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Saying your god is an immaterial nonentity defines it out of existence, which again shows you must be imagining it.
How does it show it?

I suppose that you could somehow show that at least one of "material" or "entity" are necessary for existence, but I'll leave the logistics of that up to you.

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As jdawg70 warned, Mooby retreats into solipsism.
No, I am not a solipsist.

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In making those statements, Mooby, you are admitting you do not have and cannot provide a single fact about your god. Without a single fact to support your god’s existence, you must necessarily be imagining it.
Allow me to generalize your quote to more accurately reflect my world view:
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In making those statements, Mooby, you are admitting you do not have and cannot provide a single fact about your god. Without a single fact to support your god’s existence, you must necessarily be imagining it.
No, whether I have or can provide a fact to you in this post, whether about God or existence in general, has no bearing on whether I am imagining God or existence in general.

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And, of course, it goes without saying that, yet again, you’ve evaded my question, “Is your god real or imaginary?”
No I haven't.  I've answered it numerous times.  But let me spell it out in bold for you so I can quote it next time you claim this:

I am an agostic theist.  I don't know; I believe so.

Examples of trend spotting that may or may not work:[. . .]
Part of looking at a trend is to first determine whether there's one there or not, whether the trend is short-term, long-term, cyclical, etc., and whether there's any obvious influencing factors or other similar things.

#1 and #4 are likely areas of no trend, while #2 has been cyclic for the last few 100k years.  Facebook's trend should be compared to other Internet sites and fads, and is likely better understood as part of the larger trend of how the Internet has changed since its inception and where it's heading.  The jury's still out on multiverse theory, maybe in a few thousand years we'll have a better perspective of where it fits into everything.

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God appears to speak to us through liars, because no honest people appear to be in contact with him.
Where are you getting this information?

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Say I'm a God who creates a multiverse; the expression of everything that can possibly be. I must be powerful, because I dunnit. If I don't intervene in one universe, then it means that nothing is supernatural in that universe. Or, to put it another way, God is nothing to that universe.
So you're saying if Yougod stays entirely outside a universe, then Yougod is effectively nothing as far as that universe is concerned.  Well ok, but how does that prevent Yougod from being omnimax?  After all, couldn't Yougod still affect the universe if you wanted?

All you’ve done is tell us what your god isn’t and what can’t be used to investigate it. You haven’t told us what it actually is and what can be used to investigate it.
Incorrect.  Off the top of my head, I've named the following characteristics:
- Eternal
- Omnipotent
- Omniscient
- Omniprescent
- Source of all being
- Infinite
- Perfect

In addition, I've equated God to the Being of Western metaphysics.  In particular I see a lot of similarities to The One of the Neoplatonists, though I don't consider Neoplatonism a perfect analogue for my religious views.

But hey, why read my posts when you can just claim I haven't given any positive characteristics at all?

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You’ve said you don’t believe your god is an entity, which means you don’t think it has a separate and independent existence.
No, I don't agree with the second part.  I do think that God has His own existence.

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You’ve said you don’t believe your god is a phenomenon, which means it cannot be observed or known through the senses. If your god isn’t a phenomenon then what is it? If your god cannot be observed or known through the senses then how do you experience it?
I don't think God can be observed through the senses on demand.  I think God has the ability to make himself available to senses, and in that way can be experienced through senses.  I said this back in Reply #55.

I mentioned taking an axiomatic approach to knowledge of God in Replies #68 and 84.

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You complain that my request for a factual description of your god eliminates any deity that is not a material god, which implies that your god is not a material god. Is your god material or immaterial?
That's like asking whether the set of real numbers belongs to the set of rational numbers or irrational numbers.  The answer is neither, because the set of real numbers is a higher set than the set of rational or irrational numbers.

Similarly, God is ontologically prior (comes before) material and immaterial.  And this isn't just me talking; it's a core tenet of Christianity, as seen in the Nicene Creed:
I believe in one God,
    the Father almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    of all things visible and invisible.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: JeffPT on October 20, 2012, 11:35:45 PM
Mooby. 

Do you believe your version of god is worthy of worship or not worthy of it, and why?  Does real world evidence come into play with that decision for you?  And since you have no way of knowing what interactions your god has with this world, what do you base your decision on? 
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: nogodsforme on October 20, 2012, 11:53:30 PM
- Eternal
- Omnipotent
- Omniscient
- Omniprescent
- Source of all being
- Infinite
- Perfect


I notice that Mooby did not say that his god was good. This list could apply to any supernatural being.  Not worthy of being liked, loved, respected or worshipped. Worthy of being feared. Especially when those characteristics, combined with the deadly realities of the way the universe is, add up to one pretty awful MF in control of everything. Kinda like Kim Jong Il (decides who gets to survive and who doesn't) but who never, ever dies. :o
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jdawg70 on October 20, 2012, 11:55:22 PM
Is it me, or does it seem that Mooby doesn't recognize a difference between the word 'believe' and the word 'hope'?

Seriously.  The only way I can make any sense of your posts Mooby is if I assume that when you say 'I believe' you mean 'I hope'.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on October 21, 2012, 12:22:58 AM
How does it show it?

How does it show it?

No, whether I have or can provide a fact to you in this post, whether about God or existence in general, has no bearing on whether I am imagining God or existence in general.

Well then go ahead, Mooby. Show us that your belief has any foundation in fact. Give us a factual description of your god. Show us what distinguishes your belief in your god from imagination.

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No I haven't.  I've answered it numerous times.  But let me spell it out in bold for you so I can quote it next time you claim this:

I am an agostic theist.  I don't know; I believe so.

And the last time you said that, I explained (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,23483.msg534082.html#msg534082) why it wasn’t an answer to my question. I’m not asking if you believe your god is real; I’m asking if it is actually real. Your belief has no bearing on the truth. I’m asking you to give us the truth.

What’s the problem, Mooby? Don’t you know the truth? Are you incapable of recognising the truth? Or are you incapable of giving us the truth? Is your god actually real or is it imaginary?

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Incorrect.  Off the top of my head, I've named the following characteristics:
- Eternal
- Omnipotent
- Omniscient
- Omniprescent
- Source of all being
- Infinite
- Perfect

Are any of those claimed characteristics facts or are they just make-believe? Can any of them be investigated and verified or are they all just baseless assertions with no foundation in fact? Show us that these claims are true. Show us what distinguishes your belief in your god from imagination.

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No, I don't agree with the second part.  I do think that God has His own existence.

An entity is something with a distinct and independent existence so now you are contradicting yourself. Please prove your claim here is true. Show us what distinguishes this belief from imagination.

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I don't think God can be observed through the senses on demand.  I think God has the ability to make himself available to senses, and in that way can be experienced through senses.  I said this back in Reply #55.

Prove it. Prove that your god can ever be observed through the senses. Show us that this claim is true. Show us what distinguishes this belief from imagination.

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Similarly, God is ontologically prior (comes before) material and immaterial.  And this isn't just me talking; it's a core tenet of Christianity, as seen in the Nicene Creed:
I believe in one God,
    the Father almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    of all things visible and invisible.

Prove it. Show us that these claims are true. Show us what distinguishes this belief from imagination.

Let’s review your progress once again. You’ve failed to provide a factual description of your god. You’ve failed to show that your belief in your god has any foundation in fact at all. You’ve failed to provide a shred of sound evidence or a single sound argument to prove beyond reasonable doubt that your god is real. You’ve failed to show us what distinguishes your belief in your god from imagination. In summary, you’ve completely failed to validate your belief in your god. It is reasonable to conclude that your belief is the result of self-deception.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on October 21, 2012, 12:24:34 AM
Is it me, or does it seem that Mooby doesn't recognize a difference between the word 'believe' and the word 'hope'?

It isn’t just you. I don’t think Mooby can distinguish between belief and fact. I keep asking him for facts and all he can give us is beliefs. I don’t think he can recognise the difference between fact and fantasy.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Add Homonym on October 21, 2012, 12:37:37 AM

Quote
God appears to speak to us through liars, because no honest people appear to be in contact with him.
Where are you getting this information?

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Say I'm a God who creates a multiverse; the expression of everything that can possibly be. I must be powerful, because I dunnit. If I don't intervene in one universe, then it means that nothing is supernatural in that universe. Or, to put it another way, God is nothing to that universe.
So you're saying if Yougod stays entirely outside a universe, then Yougod is effectively nothing as far as that universe is concerned.  Well ok, but how does that prevent Yougod from being omnimax?  After all, couldn't Yougod still affect the universe if you wanted?


Where am I getting this information? (Of course, I was lumping deluded people in with liars.) The slippery answer is that you are free to name anybody honest, who has God speaking through them. The more general answer is that any lying bastard seems free to start a cult or religion, and I surmise that in a universe that God genuinely did not interact with, these manipulators would be hard at work, creating religions, to exploit the desperate and gullible; so it would look no different to our own religiousphere, where you propose that a God really does interact [or matter] within it. I derive this from the conflciting diversity of religions on this planet, that have evolved. Here is a problem for you, because of "evolved". Religions have to suffer from convergent evolution, which creates a "trend" across religions. It should come as no surprise to you, that I think that the evolutionary shaping-forces on religion are what the adherents want to believe, rather than what the silent God actually wants; so, the religions should converge, in universes where God does not talk to us.

A horrific thing might be, if a God really did talk to us, and we found out how he wanted something entirely different to what we had wanted. He might for example say, "I don't like you. I want you all to die." We might reply, "We don't like you, and will continue to love each other, and do our best", to which he might reply "Go ahead, it's pointless; I will kill you all in the end, anyway." That might be a real God talking, so it's just as well he leaves us alone, to invent shit.

How does that prevent Yougod from being omnimax? He becomes irrelevantmax.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Dominic on October 21, 2012, 01:22:25 AM
Is it me, or does it seem that Mooby doesn't recognize a difference between the word 'believe' and the word 'hope'?

It isn’t just you. I don’t think Mooby can distinguish between belief and fact. I keep asking him for facts and all he can give us is beliefs. I don’t think he can recognise the difference between fact and fantasy.

3sigma and jdawg,

Science acknowledges that new information may be discovered which may necessitate a change in current scientific claims, theories, conjectures, propositions, hypothoses and even laws.

Testing and corroboration of the above provides increasing evidence of their correctness but science always allows for future amendments as new information comes to hand.

Do you agree / accept that ?

If you do then you are acknowledging that all of science is based on belief.  Those beliefs have a varying degree of confidence based on evidence, testing and corroboration.

If you do not accept it, and claim instead that science gives us certainty, then such a claim is dogma and is on a par with a religious claim based on faith alone.

Now, when you demand 'proof' and 'truth' from someone, you are making a demand of certainty which science does not make, and a demand which you yourselves could not answer if demanded of you.

Certainly, you can ask for evidence for any claim that anyone makes, and you should - but stop pretending that theists must prove their claims while science does not have to.


Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on October 21, 2012, 06:05:15 AM
Science acknowledges that new information may be discovered which may necessitate a change in current scientific claims, theories, conjectures, propositions, hypothoses and even laws.

Testing and corroboration of the above provides increasing evidence of their correctness but science always allows for future amendments as new information comes to hand.

Do you agree / accept that ?

Yes.

Quote
If you do then you are acknowledging that all of science is based on belief.  Those beliefs have a varying degree of confidence based on evidence, testing and corroboration.

You should qualify that to say science is based on justified belief. That belief is justified by the evidence, testing and corroboration you mention.

Quote
Now, when you demand 'proof' and 'truth' from someone, you are making a demand of certainty which science does not make, and a demand which you yourselves could not answer if demanded of you.

Certainly, you can ask for evidence for any claim that anyone makes, and you should - but stop pretending that theists must prove their claims while science does not have to.

To prove a claim is to establish the truth or validity of that claim by evidence or argument. The truth is that which is in accordance with fact or reality. Read the OP. I only ask that religious believers provide enough sound evidence and sound arguments to prove their claims beyond reasonable doubt. I have never asked for or expected absolute certainty—that’s for religious believers. In the latest Pew Forum survey (http://www.pewforum.org/Unaffiliated/nones-on-the-rise.aspx) on religious beliefs, 69% of all respondents stated they were absolutely certain about their belief in a god. How certain are you about your belief in a god?

The problem with religious beliefs is they are not justified by evidence, testing and corroboration. No religious believer in this thread has provided a factual description of any god. No religious believer has provided any sound evidence or sound arguments to prove beyond reasonable doubt that any god is real. No religious believer has distinguished a belief in any god from imagination. No religious believer has established the truth or validity of any claims about gods. It isn’t just that they haven’t provided enough sound evidence or sound arguments to support their beliefs; they’ve provided none whatsoever. Please try to answer the requests in the OP. You haven’t even attempted to do that. In fact, you’ve evaded every request to do so. Why is that?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: nogodsforme on October 21, 2012, 01:54:07 PM
The supposed evidence that religious believers present is so weak that they would never accept it in any other sphere of their lives.

"God answers prayers with yes, no, or not yet." Science can't get away with that sh!t. Can you imagine buying a new car that started one third of the time, stalled one third of the time and blew up the other third? Or used a new medicine that cured one third of the sufferers and killed the rest?

Science has to work better than random chance or we disregard it. Religion doesn't have to work at all. And people wonder why we scoff at religious claims. &)
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: hobbes on December 19, 2012, 06:01:39 AM
It's been quite a while since I've posted, but I was just reading this thread and felt compelled to write something.  Probably a one time post.   I don't have time for any major debates but I'll let you guys battle it out.

A couple things I want to point out:

1.  What the OP seems to want is some sort of definite empirical evidence of a characteristic of a god.  However, were there one piece of definite empirical evidence for a characteristic of a god, there would no longer be any need for belief.  The existence of a god would be established fact.  If we say there is a god and a particular empirically tested fact can only be attributed to this god and nothing else that exists, some sort of god must exist.  So, I just want to clarify that what the OP is asking for is a definite proof for a god's existence.  Thus, saying that we 'cannot even scientifically prove one characteristic of a god' is equivalent to saying we 'can't even scientifically prove god.'  The first sounds surprising, the second is quite expected.  If god had been proven at any point, this discussion would not exist.  Just wanted to point out that the question is a bit deceiving.

2. I've come across this several times.  Nonbelievers appear quite frustrated with the idea that religious people are frequently 'interfering' with politics/education etc. by making decisions that are based in their belief system.  Non-believers are indirectly saying, ' you must make decisions that are based on my worldview in order for us to accept the decision'.  This is tyranny and discrimination.  People living in a country are a smorgasbord of different belief systems, worldviews, family upbringings, ethnic backgrounds etc.  Each person regardless of their belief has a right to be making decisions for whatever position they hold in a democratic society.  And these decisions will necessarily be rooted in their past and their worldviews and their belief system.

 If a person has come into a high level education position through perseverance, hard work, and democratic election, and he declares that Creationism be taught as a possibility alongside Evolution in all schools, then it is proper and fair that this happens.  However, if he was dishonest about his beliefs and kept them secret so that he could get this position and there was a majority who disliked this teaching method, he gets kicked out and a new person gets elected who hopefully conforms more closely with the worldview of the majority.  It is entirely fair that a person of faith make decisions for important things based on his worldview.


Anyways, you don't have to respond to the 2nd and you probably shouldn't as I realize it doesn't pertain directly to this thread.  I mentioned it because I saw this reaction earlier in the same thread and quite a few times in several others.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: none on December 19, 2012, 06:51:47 AM
It's been quite a while since I've posted, but I was just reading this thread and felt compelled to write something.  Probably a one time post.   I don't have time for any major debates but I'll let you guys battle it out.

A couple things I want to point out:

1.  What the OP seems to want is some sort of definite empirical evidence of a characteristic of a god.  However, were there one piece of definite empirical evidence for a characteristic of a god, there would no longer be any need for belief.  The existence of a god would be established fact.  If we say there is a god and a particular empirically tested fact can only be attributed to this god and nothing else that exists, some sort of god must exist.  So, I just want to clarify that what the OP is asking for is a definite proof for a god's existence.  Thus, saying that we 'cannot even scientifically prove one characteristic of a god' is equivalent to saying we 'can't even scientifically prove god.'  The first sounds surprising, the second is quite expected.  If god had been proven at any point, this discussion would not exist.  Just wanted to point out that the question is a bit deceiving.

2. I've come across this several times.  Nonbelievers appear quite frustrated with the idea that religious people are frequently 'interfering' with politics/education etc. by making decisions that are based in their belief system.  Non-believers are indirectly saying, ' you must make decisions that are based on my worldview in order for us to accept the decision'.  This is tyranny and discrimination.  People living in a country are a smorgasbord of different belief systems, worldviews, family upbringings, ethnic backgrounds etc.  Each person regardless of their belief has a right to be making decisions for whatever position they hold in a democratic society.  And these decisions will necessarily be rooted in their past and their worldviews and their belief system.

 If a person has come into a high level education position through perseverance, hard work, and democratic election, and he declares that Creationism be taught as a possibility alongside Evolution in all schools, then it is proper and fair that this happens.  However, if he was dishonest about his beliefs and kept them secret so that he could get this position and there was a majority who disliked this teaching method, he gets kicked out and a new person gets elected who hopefully conforms more closely with the worldview of the majority.  It is entirely fair that a person of faith make decisions for important things based on his worldview.


Anyways, you don't have to respond to the 2nd and you probably shouldn't as I realize it doesn't pertain directly to this thread.  I mentioned it because I saw this reaction earlier in the same thread and quite a few times in several others.
halt.
you don't have time to argue that is fine move along.
Um, guess what I claim no ownership of that which is obvious.
You can't blame me for your beliefs.
If you want to believe in the mystical creations of your own imagination that is your problem, not mine or anybody else except those who introduce those beliefs and continue to support those beliefs that you have or may not have.
Tyranny and discrimination?
you have got to be joking.
I am not the one asking you to believe anything nor is it my requirement to do so.
oh yeah, a democratic society where you get to say it is every "non-believer's" problem you believe what you believe about the what you read in a book and the book says during "this time" nothing happens is ludicrous.
you promote "intelligent" design... as if "intelligent" design is an observation, it's not.
"intelligent" design claims a designer is mandatory and creation is mandatory.
well guess what I don't care how many intervals no activity is observed no assessment of reality can be made that is logical and you can't prove a designer by the same method because that is not logical.
I created this post, I pushed the keys on the keyboard.
I thought of the words, letters, and sentences of this post.
They didn't exist until I expressed them.
I created, all it takes is simple observation not claims that nothing happened to justify a theory which is part of reality and that theory is evolution from what I am aware of.
if inactivity is the best you got then you better try harder.
because guess what, I can prove evolution using that method if that method is functional.
the theory is inactive yet it exists.
"intelligent" design....
and putting people who believe that death is mandatory in charge of everything is stupid and counter productive to me and you, but you like thinking that death is mandatory because you want to please the "intelligent" designer that expressed a story or a character in that story.
oh "God" the character is an entity because you might have a "higher" education.
whatever move along.
I haven't observed any thing you have expressed other than this post that I can recall or that I am interested in observing at this time.
so enjoy your life, hobbes, it is your choice.

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on December 19, 2012, 07:34:20 AM
1.  What the OP seems to want is some sort of definite empirical evidence of a characteristic of a god.  However, were there one piece of definite empirical evidence for a characteristic of a god, there would no longer be any need for belief.  The existence of a god would be established fact…

I’m guessing from the tenor of your post that you are a religious believer. The OP is asking you to provide three things.

First, I asked for a factual description of your god. I take it from your response that you cannot provide one.  What’s more, you appear to be saying that your belief has no foundation in fact at all.

Second, I asked you to provide enough solid evidence and sound arguments to prove beyond reasonable doubt that your god is real. You’ve made no attempt to do that either and again you appear to be saying that you can’t do that.

Last, failing a factual description, solid evidence or sound arguments, I asked you to explain what distinguishes your belief from imagination. You’ve failed to provide that as well. In short, you have completely failed to establish the truth or validity of your belief. In other words, your belief is the result of self-deception.


Quote
2. I've come across this several times.  Nonbelievers appear quite frustrated with the idea that religious people are frequently 'interfering' with politics/education etc. by making decisions that are based in their belief system.  Non-believers are indirectly saying, ' you must make decisions that are based on my worldview in order for us to accept the decision'.  This is tyranny and discrimination…

The problem is that your belief system has no foundation in reason, logic or fact. It is irrational. The last thing we want is people making irrational decisions that affect our lives.


Quote
If a person has come into a high level education position through perseverance, hard work, and democratic election, and he declares that Creationism be taught as a possibility alongside Evolution in all schools, then it is proper and fair that this happens...

Don’t be ridiculous. There is nothing proper and fair at all about teaching children unsupported nonsense instead of facts and well supported, scientific theories. This is a perfect example of why we object to gullible religious believers making irrational decisions that affect the lives of others.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on December 19, 2012, 07:49:06 AM
What hobbes is saying is that if someone holds a sincere belief, then that belief is worthy of being taught to others as being true.

Hobbes, does this apply to ALL beliefs, or just those that you share?  For example, would you be happy to support the teaching of Native American mythology in schools, taught from the standpoint that it is true?  Or at least, as an equally option for belief?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: hobbes on December 19, 2012, 08:21:56 AM
Ahh, 3sigma.  Nice to meet you.

My response was not intended to provide an answer to your questions, rather to clarify your initial post.  It was to say that there can be no direct empirical fact linking a god and this universe at request.  And, that really, you are asking believers to prove a god's existence using science rather than just a facet of his being.  This is a big undertaking.  In fact, it hasn't been done well enough in all the history of man, whether by God's design or not.  This does not disprove a god, just an inability to adequately convince a non-believer.


Quote
The problem is that your belief system has no foundation in reason, logic or fact. It is irrational. The last thing we want is people making irrational decisions that affect our lives.

That's quite a statement regarding an entire people group.  You and people who agree with you believe it to be irrational.  Obviously the vast number of people who believe in a deity disagree.  The last thing you and people who agree with you want is people making decisions that you and people who agree with you believe to be irrational.

Quote
Don’t be ridiculous. There is nothing proper and fair at all about teaching children unsupported nonsense instead of facts and well supported, scientific theories. This is a perfect example of why we object to gullible religious believers making irrational decisions that affect the lives of others.

It sounds as though you are saying that unless people believe what you and others who agree with you believe, they have no business making important decisions that affect other peoples' lives.  What if, and I'm merely saying 'what if', the majority of people disagree with you and consider your beliefs to be irrational.  This majority elects someone whose belief coincides with theirs and he makes decisions based on that belief.  This is democracy.

I would also like to say that most believers I've met are not gullible people.  Maybe you've only met particularly gullible ones.  Neither do these people dismiss science.  Many of them pursue it and love it.  Yet, they are Christians.  I would conjecture that you probably have met a substantial number of believers who, in areas that you don't clash with (a.k.a. religion), are very deep, logical people.  Maybe not though... just conjecture.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: hobbes on December 19, 2012, 08:25:01 AM
Quote
What hobbes is saying is that if someone holds a sincere belief, then that belief is worthy of being taught to others as being true.

Hobbes, does this apply to ALL beliefs, or just those that you share?  For example, would you be happy to support the teaching of Native American mythology in schools, taught from the standpoint that it is true?  Or at least, as an equally option for belief?

Yes, if the person who made the decision to teach Native American mythology in schools received this position democratically.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: none on December 19, 2012, 08:52:47 AM
Ahh, 3sigma.  Nice to meet you.

My response was not intended to provide an answer to your questions, rather to clarify your initial post.  It was to say that there can be no direct empirical fact linking a god and this universe at request.  And, that really, you are asking believers to prove a god's existence using science rather than just a facet of his being.  This is a big undertaking.  In fact, it hasn't been done well enough in all the history of man, whether by God's design or not.  This does not disprove a god, just an inability to adequately convince a non-believer.
...
what is the problem? hobbes?
you believe god exists and that is part of the universe.
is your belief not part of the universe?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: none on December 19, 2012, 08:55:30 AM
Quote
What hobbes is saying is that if someone holds a sincere belief, then that belief is worthy of being taught to others as being true.

Hobbes, does this apply to ALL beliefs, or just those that you share?  For example, would you be happy to support the teaching of Native American mythology in schools, taught from the standpoint that it is true?  Or at least, as an equally option for belief?

Yes, if the person who made the decision to teach Native American mythology in schools received this position democratically.
hahaha
democracy works if you forget why Native American's aren't the authority.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on December 19, 2012, 09:00:34 AM
Quote
What hobbes is saying is that if someone holds a sincere belief, then that belief is worthy of being taught to others as being true.

Hobbes, does this apply to ALL beliefs, or just those that you share?  For example, would you be happy to support the teaching of Native American mythology in schools, taught from the standpoint that it is true?  Or at least, as an equally option for belief?

Yes, if the person who made the decision to teach Native American mythology in schools received this position democratically.

So what is important is not whether a position can be demonstrated to be true, but whether the majority are in favour of that position being taught?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: screwtape on December 19, 2012, 10:21:57 AM
Hi hobbes

1.  What the OP seems to want is some sort of definite empirical evidence of a characteristic of a god.  However, were there one piece of definite empirical evidence for a characteristic of a god, there would no longer be any need for belief.  The existence of a god would be established fact.

To be blunt, so what?  Moses saw god.  Job talked to god.  The OT is rife with stories about yhwh interacting directly with people.  Jesus did a shitload of miracles for lots of people for the sole purpose of "proving" his bona fides.  This whole "faith" thing only became a thing in recent times when people figured out how to use empiracle methods to sort the true from the untrue.  And they learned that their god hypothesis did not fare well using it. 

So I do not find the excuse that detecting god would ruin the whole set up to be convincing.  Rather, it appears that this argument is an admission that you anticipate the universe to behave exactly as if there were no god.  Since you have made your god completely undetectable, you have made your god appear completely non-existant.

For all intents and purposes, you are an atheist. You see, existant things have in influence.  My car, which exists, consumes gas, is visible, produces exhaust, takes me places, etc.  It is entangled with the rest of reality.[1]  My dog, which does not exist, does not consume food, poop on the lawn, bark at night.  Because it does not exist, it is not entangled with reality, it has no impact.  Your god, which you go to lengths to claim does not have any impact on reality, is similarly unentagled with reality.  And so, is as non-existant as my dog. 

 
 1. see Less Wrong for entanglement  http://lesswrong.com/lw/jl/what_is_evidence/ (http://lesswrong.com/lw/jl/what_is_evidence/)
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jetson on December 19, 2012, 11:00:14 AM

3sigma and jdawg,

Science acknowledges that new information may be discovered which may necessitate a change in current scientific claims, theories, conjectures, propositions, hypothoses and even laws.

Testing and corroboration of the above provides increasing evidence of their correctness but science always allows for future amendments as new information comes to hand.

Do you agree / accept that ?

If you do then you are acknowledging that all of science is based on belief.  Those beliefs have a varying degree of confidence based on evidence, testing and corroboration.

If you do not accept it, and claim instead that science gives us certainty, then such a claim is dogma and is on a par with a religious claim based on faith alone.

Now, when you demand 'proof' and 'truth' from someone, you are making a demand of certainty which science does not make, and a demand which you yourselves could not answer if demanded of you.

Certainly, you can ask for evidence for any claim that anyone makes, and you should - but stop pretending that theists must prove their claims while science does not have to.

You are really showing your ignorance of science and the scientific method here Dominic.  The truth is, we all know that science attempts to explain things as best it can, and that yes, it does have to correct itself as we learn more.  It even throws out entire theories because they were later proven incorrect.  That is the essential beauty of the method and discipline.

Now, when you sit in a science class at school, you are being taught the best current knowledge about something, say dinosaurs.  You, as a student, are not told that it is absolute fact (this is where you appear ignorant).  You are told that this is current scientific understanding based on facts and evidence.  You, as a student, are actually free to disagree!  Although, if you take that route, then you are obligated to show why you disagree, and to show an alternative, and potentially better explanation.  If you do that, using the scientific method, then you have a shot at changing current knowledge.

Again, science DOES NOT ever state something as absolute 100% irrefutable fact.  It stands ready and willing to change it's position on anything, once a falsification is shown, tested, and a consensus agrees that it must change. 

We have seen enough evidence that even religion has to evolve in order to remain acceptable to modern humans.  God no longer has the time or inclination to appear before anyone today, apparently.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 12 Monkeys on December 19, 2012, 11:12:31 AM
Quote
What hobbes is saying is that if someone holds a sincere belief, then that belief is worthy of being taught to others as being true.

Hobbes, does this apply to ALL beliefs, or just those that you share?  For example, would you be happy to support the teaching of Native American mythology in schools, taught from the standpoint that it is true?  Or at least, as an equally option for belief?

Yes, if the person who made the decision to teach Native American mythology in schools received this position democratically.
As a "native" I ask what makes your mythology different from mine?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: hobbes on December 19, 2012, 04:37:56 PM
Quote
So what is important is not whether a position can be demonstrated to be true, but whether the majority are in favour of that position being taught?

Almost.  What is important is that the majority of people believe what is being taught to be true.  If some idea can be convincingly demonstrated to be true, it should sway the majority.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jetson on December 19, 2012, 04:39:37 PM
Quote
So what is important is not whether a position can be demonstrated to be true, but whether the majority are in favour of that position being taught?

Almost.  What is important is that the majority of people believe what is being taught to be true.  If some idea can be convincingly demonstrated to be true, it should sway the majority.

But what if it is harmful?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: hobbes on December 19, 2012, 06:59:39 PM
Quote
But what if it is harmful?

If the majority of people believe that what is taught is doing more harm than good, it will soon be stopped. 

What is the other option?  That a minority of people can say, 'unless you conform to our standards of belief, you have no right to voice an opinion or make decisions for the majority'?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: none on December 19, 2012, 07:07:50 PM
Quote
But what if it is harmful?

If the majority of people believe that what is taught is doing more harm than good, it will soon be stopped. 

What is the other option?  That a minority of people can say, 'unless you conform to our standards of belief, you have no right to voice an opinion or make decisions for the majority'?
I know a single person that got this answer right but I know you know the answer also, Where was God when Jesus spoke?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jetson on December 19, 2012, 08:41:49 PM
Quote
But what if it is harmful?

If the majority of people believe that what is taught is doing more harm than good, it will soon be stopped. 

What is the other option?  That a minority of people can say, 'unless you conform to our standards of belief, you have no right to voice an opinion or make decisions for the majority'?

So, when will Islam be stopped? 

BTW - you do understand that "majority rules" is one of the absolute worst ways to manage a society?  You have the minority issue completely backwards.  If the majority of a community denies equal rights to a minority, that is where the problem lies.  Minorities don't want to interfere with others rights, typically, they want equal rights, and usually have a difficult time getting them thanks to the stupid ignorance of majorities.

This is the inherent danger of competing gods and religions.  If all are free to worship, but none are free to force their views on others, then we have balance.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on December 19, 2012, 09:33:54 PM
My response was not intended to provide an answer to your questions, rather to clarify your initial post.  It was to say that there can be no direct empirical fact linking a god and this universe at request.  And, that really, you are asking believers to prove a god's existence using science rather than just a facet of his being…

I’m asking you to establish the truth or validity of your belief. Can you do that? If you can’t then your belief is unvalidated and allowing yourself to believe something that is unvalidated is simply self-deception.


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That's quite a statement regarding an entire people group.  You and people who agree with you believe it to be irrational.  Obviously the vast number of people who believe in a deity disagree.

Well then show us that we are wrong. Establish the truth or validity of your belief. Show us that it is based on or in accordance with reason or logic. Prove that it isn’t irrational. If your belief isn’t logical or reasonable then it is irrational and we are correct in our assessment of it and correct to distrust your judgment and ability to reason.


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It sounds as though you are saying that unless people believe what you and others who agree with you believe, they have no business making important decisions that affect other peoples' lives.

No, that isn’t what I’m saying at all. I’m saying that unless people can validate their beliefs then they have no business making important decisions based on those beliefs and that affect other people’s lives. For example, many people believe that homosexuality is an abomination based on their irrational religious beliefs and the teachings of their religion. Based on that irrational belief, they oppose equal rights for same-sex couples. Many people believe that the theory of evolution is incorrect based on their irrational religious beliefs and the teachings of their religion. Based on that irrational belief, they oppose the teaching of evolution in public school science classes and instead propose that children’s heads be filled with unsupported nonsense that has no foundation in fact.


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I would also like to say that most believers I've met are not gullible people.  Maybe you've only met particularly gullible ones.  Neither do these people dismiss science.  Many of them pursue it and love it.  Yet, they are Christians.

Your last statement there should be, yet they are gullible. Gullible means easily persuaded to believe something; credulous. Credulous means having or showing too great a readiness to believe things. Christians (and other religious believers) believe their god is real without a shred of solid evidence or a single sound argument to support that belief. You couldn’t be more ready to believe something than to believe it without a shred of solid evidence or a single sound argument.

Religious believers may think their belief is reasonable or logical, but it is invariably based on misapprehensions, fallacies, feelings, imagination, similar weak evidence or none at all. Religious believers are insecure enough to want the comforting promises of religions to be true and gullible enough to believe them. They allow their desire for emotional comfort to override their reason. Consequently, when it comes to a conflict between their religious beliefs and the truth, they will disregard reason and the truth and cling to their religious belief. When something threatens their religious beliefs, religious believers will oppose it. We see this in their opposition to same-sex marriages and the teaching of evolution. That is why we cannot trust their judgment and ability to reason and why we object to their making decisions based on their religious beliefs that affect the lives of others.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on December 19, 2012, 10:02:47 PM
If the majority of people believe that what is taught is doing more harm than good, it will soon be stopped.

The problem here is that many times the religious majority don’t think what is being taught is doing more harm than good. What’s more, they are basing their belief on faulty evidence and flawed arguments. At one point in the not too distant past, the religious majority believed that people should be burned alive for disagreeing with their dogma. In other places, the religious majority believed they had to sacrifice children to appease their gods. Even today, other religious majorities believe that people should be killed for blasphemy and apostasy. I’m guessing you cannot think of a single “good” that is unique to religion (that couldn’t have occurred without religion), but I can certainly think of “harms” that are unique to religions.

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What is the other option?  That a minority of people can say, 'unless you conform to our standards of belief, you have no right to voice an opinion or make decisions for the majority'?

Everyone should conform to reasonable standards of belief. Read my signature. People should base their beliefs on reason, logic and facts, not unvalidated feelings and emotions. As history has shown, when religious believers are allowed to dictate what must be believed based on nothing more than irrational dogma it can lead to burning and killing people for appeasement, heresy, blasphemy and apostasy.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jetson on December 19, 2012, 10:23:00 PM
Ah, good ole blasphemy, the victimless crime!
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on December 20, 2012, 05:23:32 AM
Quote
So what is important is not whether a position can be demonstrated to be true, but whether the majority are in favour of that position being taught?

Almost.  What is important is that the majority of people believe what is being taught to be true.  If some idea can be convincingly demonstrated to be true, it should sway the majority.

But still, belief should trump fact when deciding what to teach?

In the Middle East, the overwhelming majority believe that Allah is god, presumably because that idea has been convincingly demonstrated to be true.  I presume you wholeheartedly support the teaching of Islam wherever there is a majority of Muslims?  I presume further that in any country where the Christian population becomes a minority (as is almost now the case in the UK) you would strongly support any moves to teach that Christianity is false?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: hobbes on December 21, 2012, 03:07:16 AM
Quote
But still, belief should trump fact when deciding what to teach?

A difficult question.  Positive demonstrated fact should trump blind belief.  However, in a situation where truth is in question, or where scientific facts are incapable or have been unable up to this point to prove a truth, then the majority should have the sway in what to teach.


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In the Middle East, the overwhelming majority believe that Allah is god, presumably because that idea has been convincingly demonstrated to be true.  I presume you wholeheartedly support the teaching of Islam wherever there is a majority of Muslims?  I presume further that in any country where the Christian population becomes a minority (as is almost now the case in the UK) you would strongly support any moves to teach that Christianity is false?

Yes, I agree.  In that situation Islam should be taught.

With your second point, I also agree to an extent.  I agree that in a country where Christianity has become a minority, I would support the motions made by a fairly elected non-Christian official.  Though, I would continue to protest in whatever way I could legally the points I disagree with. 

If this non-Christian official was a good one, however, I would expect him to understand that Christianity is still a large minority and not to entirely disregard or bash Christianity in his choices.  Perhaps, he would point out Christianity as an option but emphasize his beliefs.  Or, rather than directly teaching that Christianity is false, he would merely teach that his belief was correct or believed by the majority.

To answer your question, I would entirely support the right of a non-Christian official to make decisions for the wider population but I would continue to protest the ones I disagree with.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on December 21, 2012, 05:45:55 AM
Suppose just a handful of people believed the Christian message - a dozen, say, in a whole country that opposed their beliefs.  In such a case, should not that tiny, tiny minority accept the will of the vast, vast majority and quit teaching and proselytising what they believe?

Or are you saying that - provided one feels strongly enough about one's beliefs - one should push for them to be taught no matter what the opinion of others?  No matter what the majority may feel?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jaimehlers on December 21, 2012, 02:37:20 PM
A difficult question.  Positive demonstrated fact should trump blind belief.  However, in a situation where truth is in question, or where scientific facts are incapable or have been unable up to this point to prove a truth, then the majority should have the sway in what to teach.
If we don't know the truth about something, we should have what's taught be decided by what amounts to a popularity contest?  That's essentially what you're saying here.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: hobbes on December 23, 2012, 01:14:37 AM
Quote
Suppose just a handful of people believed the Christian message - a dozen, say, in a whole country that opposed their beliefs.  In such a case, should not that tiny, tiny minority accept the will of the vast, vast majority and quit teaching and proselytising what they believe?

I don't think censoring free speech or suppressing minorities is a particularly good option for any scenario.  I mean, this is how minorities turn into majorities and dramatic changes are instigated.

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Or are you saying that - provided one feels strongly enough about one's beliefs - one should push for them to be taught no matter what the opinion of others?  No matter what the majority may feel?

Yes, I agree.  Within the bounds of the current leaders, laws and regulations, etc., people who genuinely believe something should always try to convince others of it and push for it to be taught.  Particularly if this people group believes this thing to be urgent and important enough.  If I believe something's blue and you believe it's red and for some reason we can't prove it, I don't really care enough or think it's important enough to keep convincing you of it and I should probably shut up.  However, if what I genuinely believe has eternal consequences for you and other people I talk to, I think I have an obligation to continue to try to convince you.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: hobbes on December 23, 2012, 01:19:52 AM
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If we don't know the truth about something, we should have what's taught be decided by what amounts to a popularity contest?  That's essentially what you're saying here.

Sorry, if at least one group claims to know this truth, then what's taught should be decided by the majority.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Aspie on December 23, 2012, 04:44:00 AM
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If the majority of people believe that what is taught is doing more harm than good, it will soon be stopped.

You have a really bad habit of evading the actual points being raised. He didn't ask "what if the majority believe it to be harmful", he asked:

Quote
But what if it is harmful?

Should a majority be trusted entirely to assess harm based on personal opinion as well?

Quote
What is the other option?  That a minority of people can say, 'unless you conform to our standards of belief, you have no right to voice an opinion or make decisions for the majority'?

I also notice that whenever you're responding to points pertaining to facts you immediately shift into the weasel territory of "belief". Tell me something - do facts mean anything on their own or do they first need a majority headcount of anyone with an opinion to validate them? If the former, how is your concern with democracy at all relevant here?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on December 23, 2012, 06:01:06 AM
Sorry, if at least one group claims to know this truth, then what's taught should be decided by the majority.

What if their claim doesn’t have a shred of solid evidence or a single sound argument to support it? What if their claim is completely unvalidated and just a result of self-deception? Should we just let them teach their unsupported nonsense in public school science classes to the detriment of the children’s education?

You are evading the questions I’ve asked you in this thread, hobbes. Why is that? You also haven’t attempted to answer the questions in the OP. Please respond to the OP. Please validate your belief in your god.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: hobbes on December 24, 2012, 12:05:55 AM
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You have a really bad habit of evading the actual points being raised. He didn't ask "what if the majority believe it to be harmful", he asked:

Quote
But what if it is harmful?

Alright, if all parties agree that it is harmful then yes it should stop.  Obviously you and I have different opinions of what 'harmful' is and so it is necessary to discuss this in terms of what we 'believe' to be harmful.

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Should a majority be trusted entirely to assess harm based on personal opinion as well?

I don't understand what you think the other option is.

As for the last bit - most of what we disagree on comes down to belief or a differing opinion on what we consider factual or important.  This is how many if not most philosophical ideas or psychological actions need to be discussed.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Aspie on December 24, 2012, 02:28:35 AM
Alright, if all parties agree that it is harmful then yes it should stop.  Obviously you and I have different opinions of what 'harmful' is and so it is necessary to discuss this in terms of what we 'believe' to be harmful.

Whether "all parties agree" is completely irrelevant to whether a harm actually exists. Reality is not contingent upon the thought processes of a human population. How could we ever determine a majority to be wrong if we begin from the assumption that the majority will always be drawn to the truth like children to the pied piper?

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I don't understand what you think the other option is.

What about an informed approach? Why should simply having an opinion qualify you to determine truth?  Do you consider a conclusion based on fact and knowledge of a subject to be on par with one reached from simply hearing someone pontificate about it?

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As for the last bit - most of what we disagree on comes down to belief or a differing opinion on what we consider factual or important.  This is how many if not most philosophical ideas or psychological actions need to be discussed.

Reality is not a democracy. The perspective that all ideas and conclusions are equally valid reduces truth to the outcome of a pissing match between dogmas vying for public adoration.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: hobbes on December 24, 2012, 06:49:27 AM
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Whether "all parties agree" is completely irrelevant to whether a harm actually exists. Reality is not contingent upon the thought processes of a human population. How could we ever determine a majority to be wrong if we begin from the assumption that the majority will always be drawn to the truth like children to the pied piper?

Whether something is considered harmful IS contingent upon the thought process of a human population.  If I can disagree with you over whether a particular action is harmful, then it is questionable whether this action is harmful.  In a broad, most basic example, - you think teaching religion is harmful, I think it is helpful.  Is harm actually, factually occurring?  Well, that depends on what you view as harmful.


Quote
What about an informed approach? Why should simply having an opinion qualify you to determine truth?  Do you consider a conclusion based on fact and knowledge of a subject to be on par with one reached from simply hearing someone pontificate about it?

You are assuming that this majority is an uninformed, ignorant, and unintelligent mass of people who are just concocting ideas up out of nothing.  Do you think that simply because a group of people disagree with you, these people are instantly not basing any of their conclusions in fact or knowledge?  Perfectly intelligent and reasonable people have come to a conclusion based in fact and knowledge that you are entirely wrong.  If this is possible, truth is in question.  As long as truth is in question, the majority should determine what is taught.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on December 24, 2012, 06:58:55 AM
Perfectly intelligent and reasonable people have come to a conclusion based in fact and knowledge ....

Which brings us neatly back to the OP.  What are these verifiable facts that these people are basing their conclusions on?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jetson on December 24, 2012, 08:58:27 AM

You are assuming that this majority is an uninformed, ignorant, and unintelligent mass of people who are just concocting ideas up out of nothing.  Do you think that simply because a group of people disagree with you, these people are instantly not basing any of their conclusions in fact or knowledge?  Perfectly intelligent and reasonable people have come to a conclusion based in fact and knowledge that you are entirely wrong.  If this is possible, truth is in question.  As long as truth is in question, the majority should determine what is taught.

Everything in the major religions is concocted out of nothing.  All gods are imaginary, and thus their platforms and stories are built on absolutely no foundation of truth whatsoever.  It's all made up.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: kaziglu bey on December 24, 2012, 09:07:45 AM
Perfectly intelligent and reasonable people have come to a conclusion based in fact and knowledge that you are entirely wrong.
Then why have we yet to see a single theist present the facts and knowledge that show that we are wrong? How come theists still rely on Pascal's Wager, and Argument from Design, and no true Scotsman, and non-sequitur, and a host of other poor forms of logic and reasoning that are without evidence, rather than showing us the "facts" that demonstrate that there is a God? Gravity is a FACT, just as you assert that "God" is a fact. The evidence for gravity is, needless to say, rather overwhelming. That is why it is considered a fact. The evidence for God is non-existent, which is why we do NOT consider his existence a fact.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Aspie on December 24, 2012, 03:01:25 PM
If I can disagree with you over whether a particular action is harmful, then it is questionable whether this action is harmful.

So it doesn't matter whether you actually have reasonable grounds to disagree, just that you disagree is enough. Is this because you can be blindly trusted as an impartial, informed authority or because truth is magic that would sweep you off your feet regardless of bias or understanding?

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You are assuming that this majority is an uninformed, ignorant, and unintelligent mass of people who are just concocting ideas up out of nothing.  Do you think that simply because a group of people disagree with you, these people are instantly not basing any of their conclusions in fact or knowledge?  Perfectly intelligent and reasonable people have come to a conclusion based in fact and knowledge that you are entirely wrong.  If this is possible, truth is in question.  As long as truth is in question, the majority should determine what is taught.

I made no such assumption. You, however, are painting a majority as some engine of pure rationality driven solely to truth. When people base their conclusions on fact this should be demonstrated and never taken on faith. If we assume from the get-go that all disagreements are reasonable then one position can never more valid than another; likewise if we assume that anyone intelligent who seems reasonable will always gravitate towards a reasonable position. It's not enough to declare your conclusions logical and reasonable by fiat. At some point you have to have something to put on the table.

Given that argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy why would popularity have any bearing on matters of truth? Or perhaps you consider logic itself to be controversial?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on December 24, 2012, 04:46:48 PM
In a broad, most basic example, - you think teaching religion is harmful, I think it is helpful.  Is harm actually, factually occurring?  Well, that depends on what you view as harmful.

I consider this (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia/2012/12/20121222114547753697.html) to be harmful, how about you?

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As long as truth is in question, the majority should determine what is taught.

The story above is just one of the many examples showing why this is a bad idea.

Yes, we question whether what you believe is the truth, hobbes, so please stop evading those questions and answer the OP. Establish the truth or validity of your belief that your god actually exists. Give us a factual description of your god. Provide enough solid evidence and sound arguments to prove its existence beyond reasonable doubt. Show us what distinguishes your belief in your god from imagination. In other words, show us that you are not simply deceiving yourself.

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: JeffPT on December 24, 2012, 05:59:08 PM
Hobbes.  These are just a few reasons why religion is bad.  If you can't find examples of how harmful religion is to the world, then you just aren't looking. 

http://imgur.com/r/atheism/mpQA0

BTW, that's just the October 2012 version.  There are others. 
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 24, 2012, 06:44:53 PM
Or we can go to a less extreme example. Do you think that this is beautiful?


(http://library.thinkquest.org/J0111742/burmesewoman.jpg)
The people of this tribe do of people in Burma do.


Everyone agrees.


It hurts.


Is it automatically acceptable just because everyone is taught that the women of the tribe should do this to themselves?


These are presumably otherwise sane and intelligent people. Yet they want this. And if you are a girl in this culture, you are expected to endure this.


Groups aren't automatically anything. Yes, of course they can make decisions that we would all consider wise. But that is happenstance, not something that is inevitable.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on December 25, 2012, 04:03:34 AM
Groups aren't automatically anything. Yes, of course they can make decisions that we would all consider wise. But that is happenstance, not something that is inevitable.

Indeedy.  X-Factor/American Idol and their ilk gain audiences well into the millions.  A documentary on sustainable food sources is watched by significantly less.  Therefore, X-Factor is a better programme than the documentary.


Discuss.

Actually, DON'T discuss.  Just take a vote and go with what the majority says, right hobbes?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: I Believe on December 26, 2012, 10:50:40 PM
It is more probable that the Old Testament is a true account rather than a fictional account in my understanding. 

My question to atheists is: "Where did Solomon get all his wisdom if not from God?"

It is written in 1 Kings Chapter 3 that Solomon asked God for wisdom.  1 Kings 3:16 and following demonstrates Solomon's wisdom when he made a ruling for 2 prostitutes.  There are at least 2 places in the book of Proverbs that say Solomon wrote the proverbs written in that book. 

What I'm saying is: the text in 1 Kings is born out by all the proverbs in the book of Proverbs.

The account of David found in 1st and 2nd Samuel is born out by all the psalms of David written in the book of Psalms

Not to mention all the prophecies that are found in the Old Testament narrative like the one about Josiah or the 70 years of exile in the book of Jeremiah and Daniel and Leviticus 26.

Why don't we just stick to Solomon to keep the discussion simple.

Where did Solomon get all his wisdom if not from God?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 26, 2012, 11:05:19 PM
I Believe (never thought I'd type those words)  :)


Welcome. I'm glad you've joined in on the conversation. Others may or may not agree to limit the discussion to Solomon, but whether they do or not, I have these questions for you.


Where did the Chinese of the same era get their wisdom? Where did the ancient civilizations of the Indus Valley get theirs. Where did the native Americans get theirs?


Could it be that cultures can, under the right circumstances, figure out right and wrong without the intervention of a god on high? That people can learn from their mistakes and from their successes? That human intelligence itself is sometimes adequate when it comes to running the ship of state?


It sounds hit-or-miss to me. Wisdom, that is. I know people today who demonstrate it on a daily basis. And I know people today that have no brain cells dedicated to the concept at all. This has probably been the case for tens of thousands of years.


Edit: Decided a smiley face was in order.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: William on December 27, 2012, 12:11:46 AM
Why don't we just stick to Solomon to keep the discussion simple.

Where did Solomon get all his wisdom if not from God?

Welcome I Believe.

Nice simple question ... thanks for asking it  :)

But how can we verify if Solomon was indeed wise?  All we have to go on is what a supporter of Solomon wrote about him afterwards.
Would a modern day fanboy journalist say or write something bad about his favourite politician - or a king whose successors pay his wage and protect his family? 

Can we even say for sure that there actually were two prostitutes fighting over a baby?  Read up on the concept of "midrash" ;)    There is a lovely device in Italian culture when somebody makes up a good story/joke - they are comfortable in saying: "This story is so good it ought to be true!"  And from there it only needs a couple of repeats to attain the status of truth, and then be asserted to be the truth in every subsequent retelling. 

That is the nature of memes.  It's completely natural that scribes add their own contemporary philosophies and embellish stories in a way they think will add appeal and make sense to readers.
That is the process by which the scriptures evolved.  It is why on the one hand some biblical prophecies seem to be fulfilled but on the other hand there are so many inconsistencies and contradictions.  Multiple scribes doing their own little bit to improve the story - but inadvertently making a bigger hash of it because nobody is coordinating.

Another angle.  If Solomon did get his wisdom from God, then where did God get all his wisdom from?     
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: a3dtot on December 27, 2012, 01:59:17 AM
Alright I will attempt to validate. This is actually what I was looking for. I am looking for an atheist point of view concerning my beliefs so this may be just the place. My belief is based on knowing that God exist yet not knowing who, what or where about him. (Him is not really correct. The God I know or believe I know is neither male nor female I'm just not comfortable with calling him it.)
 The God that I know is quite literally the existence of perfect love. I am not a religous person meaning I am not a church member nor do I subscribe to many of the religous beliefs that exist today. The proof of that existence has not been biblical in nature although most of what I understand does not conflict with most of what is contained in the Bible. What I have learned from the one I call God, is how to love and understand the people around me and myself. Through this communication process I have learned a great deal about myself. I would have to say that at the beginning of this learning process the main subject was perception or how I see the world around me. Since we see or judge the world we live in based on our own thoughts and feelings, it is often colored by our prejudices and desires. To correct my view of the world I had to learn to see others and life as they are not as I think or believe they are. This part of the enlightenment process has been very successful for me. I am very happily married and have quite a few children and grandchildren. My children actually respect and love me which I attribute to the person I became once I began to learn from the one I call God.
 For me the proof of God's existence is not in the physical world but in the realm of emotion. The corrections I have recieved were not of behavior but of how I understand the world around me. I do not trust people to act in a way that I would approve of but instead trust them to be themselves and act accordingly. This approach to life has allowed me to love my wife and children for who they are not who I want them to be. This is the proof of God's existence that I am talking about at least for me. I would like your views on this approach. Any arguments for or against would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 27, 2012, 02:24:11 AM
Welcome a3dtot.


Your comments and points of view are welcome, but the words you just posted do not pertain to this specific discussion. I am an administrator on the site, and want to make sure that your efforts are directed effectively. I would suggest that you go to our Introductions section (found here: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/board,17.0.html (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/board,17.0.html)) and tell us a little about yourself (you might cut and paste some of the above post if you want to). You will not be able to post an introduction until after you've posted in other discussions three times. And of course, selfish folks that we are, we prefer that they be quality posts that accurately reflect your point of view and that are on topic.


We don't discuss or argue anything serious in that section. It is meant as a place to welcome new members, not roast them.


Once you have posted three times you can start your own threads in other sections besides the Introductions one, and you might want to do that with a thread based on the theme of what you've already written above. We welcome inquiring minds as long as they present their own ideas (rather than simply cutting and pasting scripture, for instance) and are willing to listen to contrary points of view. Since most of us here are atheists, you can safely assume that we disagree with some of  your assumptions. And if you don't mind the occasional barbed comment or people telling you that they think you are wrong, you can probably learn much. Both about atheism and your own beliefs.


And you might teach us something. Stranger things have happened.


We certainly don't jump all over newbies who post off-subject, so don't feel that this is any sort of a reprimand. It is meant as a welcome and to provide you with the information you need to contribute more effectively on this site. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.


P.S. If you too are new but you are not a3dtot, this message applies to you as well. We welcome new members as long as you are here to contribute to the forum. Believers and non-believers alike. Any of you are welcome to PM me, and if you are new to forums, we have a welcoming committee made up of some of the sweetest atheists in the whole world who will, very seriously, help you transition into the wild and whacky world of online verbal abuse. Or just plain old discussions, if that is what you prefer.  :)


Regular forum members: I'm just feeling sweet right now. Live with it.


ParkingPlaces
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: mhaberling on December 27, 2012, 02:26:30 AM
Alright I will attempt to validate. This is actually what I was looking for. I am looking for an atheist point of view concerning my beliefs so this may be just the place. My belief is based on knowing that God exist yet not knowing who, what or where about him. (Him is not really correct. The God I know or believe I know is neither male nor female I'm just not comfortable with calling him it.)
 The God that I know is quite literally the existence of perfect love. I am not a religous person meaning I am not a church member nor do I subscribe to many of the religous beliefs that exist today. The proof of that existence has not been biblical in nature although most of what I understand does not conflict with most of what is contained in the Bible. What I have learned from the one I call God, is how to love and understand the people around me and myself. Through this communication process I have learned a great deal about myself. I would have to say that at the beginning of this learning process the main subject was perception or how I see the world around me. Since we see or judge the world we live in based on our own thoughts and feelings, it is often colored by our prejudices and desires. To correct my view of the world I had to learn to see others and life as they are not as I think or believe they are. This part of the enlightenment process has been very successful for me. I am very happily married and have quite a few children and grandchildren. My children actually respect and love me which I attribute to the person I became once I began to learn from the one I call God.
 For me the proof of God's existence is not in the physical world but in the realm of emotion. The corrections I have recieved were not of behavior but of how I understand the world around me. I do not trust people to act in a way that I would approve of but instead trust them to be themselves and act accordingly. This approach to life has allowed me to love my wife and children for who they are not who I want them to be. This is the proof of God's existence that I am talking about at least for me. I would like your views on this approach. Any arguments for or against would be appreciated.

I think your God and my God would get along really well... You would be amazed how hard it is to convince some Christians to go along with the idea that what God really want's is for us to love each other and treat each other with respect...

Also welcome to wwgha... hope you enjoy yourself
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: a3dtot on December 27, 2012, 02:31:05 AM
Sorry. After I posted I read some of the latter post and realized I was off subject. I found the discussion very interesting.
I am new to these types of forums and I will figure them out eventually. Thank you for your response.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 27, 2012, 02:32:39 AM
Sorry. After I posted I read some of the latter post and realized I was off subject. I found the discussion very interesting.
I am new to these types of forums and I will figure them out eventually. Thank you for your response.


No harm done. We love you anyway.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on December 27, 2012, 06:00:19 AM
Why don't we just stick to Solomon to keep the discussion simple.

Why don’t we? Because that isn’t one of the questions I asked in the OP. Why don’t you first answer my actual questions in the OP instead of trying to impose your own limit on what should be discussed in a thread I started?

In the OP, I asked you to provide a factual description of your god. I asked you to provide enough solid evidence and sound arguments to prove beyond reasonable doubt that your god is real. And I asked you to explain what distinguishes your belief from imagination. Let’s just stick to those questions.

Please read the OP and answer its questions.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on December 27, 2012, 06:02:00 AM
Alright I will attempt to validate.

Great. Please read the OP and answer its questions.


Quote
My belief is based on knowing that God exist yet not knowing who, what or where about him.

Did you read the OP? The first thing I asked for in the OP was a factual description of your god. I’ll take this to mean that you cannot give a factual description.


Quote
The God that I know is quite literally the existence of perfect love.

Love is only an emotion. It exists entirely within your mind. Are you saying that your god exists entirely within your mind; that it’s just a feeling you have?


Quote
For me the proof of God's existence is not in the physical world but in the realm of emotion.

It appears you are saying your god is just a feeling you have, which means your belief is based on nothing more than an unvalidated feeling.


Quote
This is the proof of God's existence that I am talking about at least for me. I would like your views on this approach. Any arguments for or against would be appreciated.

What do I think of your approach? Well, let’s see… You’ve failed to provide a factual description of your god. You’ve failed to provide a shred of solid evidence or a single sound argument to prove beyond reasonable doubt that your god is real. And you’ve failed to distinguish your belief from imagination. You’ve completely failed to validate your belief that your god is real. You’ve admitted that your belief is based on nothing more than an unvalidated feeling. Allowing yourself to believe that an unvalidated feeling is true is simply self-deception.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: a3dtot on January 01, 2013, 09:48:04 PM
I have been asked to validate the existence of God so I will give it a try.
For those of you who want physical proof I'm sorry but I cannot provide it. I know from my own life that I have had plenty of proof but it is not in a form that can be proven except to myself and those around me who have experienced the same with me. I understand that my answer will most likely not fit the requirements for proof. But I did not find and understand God by
looking for physical solutions. The God I know exist, is in the realm of emotions and how we treat each other, because nothing else really matters. Life without love is not worth living and love is what we give to one another not what we want.

 God is the personafication of perfect love, a being without form and only the existence of will. His will is love and with that love he creates all of existence in order to share that love with his creation. Whatever is required to complete his desire to create is created. God is omnipotent and omnipresent and has no begining and no end because there is no begining and no end to perfect love. Perfect love has always been true and does not change and is true in all situations it always remains the same. In order to attain real life his creations must choose to love. Love cannot be done because of rules or laws it must be something that is felt and believed in with all our heart and all of our might. The life experience that we live has been created in order to teach us the value of perfect love. The world as it is now is the way we want it to be. It is based on selfishness and not selflessness. We blame God for starving children and yet most are un-willing to truly give. We have expensive cars and homes and do not care about others unless it is brought to our attention. We do not love one another as we have been taught.
 As we create the world we want it is filled with violence, crime, judgement and fear. Until the day we accept love as our only motivation our only desire this life will only get more difficult. There are many lives today that cannot be helped by science because what is most important is how we treat one another. When a family is filled with addictions to drugs or achohol, violence and cruelty it is caused by a lack of love. If you love your children you will nuture them and guide them to a life of happiness, when others are more important than self then life will not have pain and suffering. While we may say that we are loving our children, the problem is that it is our form of love. Fathers who molest their daughters say that they love them but obviously this is not love. It is the father's perverted form of love, his own creation that gives him what he wants. We need the perfect love to show us how to love correctly and how to give those we love the best that can be offered. True perfect love is only true and perfect when it is shared and in truth it is the only thing worth sharing.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on January 01, 2013, 10:29:16 PM
I have been asked to validate the existence of God so I will give it a try.
For those of you who want physical proof I'm sorry but I cannot provide it. I know from my own life that I have had plenty of proof but it is not in a form that can be proven except to myself and those around me who have experienced the same with me. I understand that my answer will most likely not fit the requirements for proof. But I did not find and understand God by
looking for physical solutions. The God I know exist, is in the realm of emotions and how we treat each other, because nothing else really matters. Life without love is not worth living and love is what we give to one another not what we want.

You said all of this last time I asked you to reply to the OP. It was worthless as an answer then and it’s still worthless now. Look again at the OP. I ask you to give a factual description of your god. I ask you to provide enough solid evidence and sound arguments to prove beyond reasonable doubt that your god is real. And I ask you to explain what distinguishes your belief in your god from imagination. You’ve done none of that. You haven’t even attempted to answer the questions in the OP. All you have done is again drone on about love and unjustifiably claim it is your god.

Please provide a factual description of your god. Please stop making unjustified claims and start providing some solid evidence and sound arguments to prove beyond reasonable doubt that your god is real. Please explain what distinguishes your belief in your god from imagination. Above all, please stop evading those requests.


Quote
God is the personafication of perfect love, a being without form and only the existence of will. His will is love and with that love he creates all of existence in order to share that love with his creation. Whatever is required to complete his desire to create is created. God is omnipotent and omnipresent and has no begining and no end because there is no begining and no end to perfect love.

Prove it. Please establish the truth or validity of these implausible claims. If you can’t demonstrate that what you say is true then why should we trust anything you say?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Aaron123 on January 01, 2013, 10:38:05 PM
Quote
I have been asked to validate the existence of God so I will give it a try.
For those of you who want physical proof I'm sorry but I cannot provide it. I know from my own life that I have had plenty of proof but it is not in a form that can be proven except to myself and those around me who have experienced the same with me. I understand that my answer will most likely not fit the requirements for proof. But I did not find and understand God by
looking for physical solutions. The God I know exist, is in the realm of emotions and how we treat each other, because nothing else really matters. Life without love is not worth living and love is what we give to one another not what we want.

If you can't offer anything other than "god is part of my wishful thinking", how do you expect us to accept anything you say?

For that matter, the bible suggusts that there was plenty of physical proof of god 2,000+ years ago.  Why do you imagine it's different now?


Quote
God is the personafication of perfect love, a being without form and only the existence of will. His will is love and with that love he creates all of existence in order to share that love with his creation. Whatever is required to complete his desire to create is created. God is omnipotent and omnipresent and has no begining and no end because there is no begining and no end to perfect love. Perfect love has always been true and does not change and is true in all situations it always remains the same. In order to attain real life his creations must choose to love. Love cannot be done because of rules or laws it must be something that is felt and believed in with all our heart and all of our might. The life experience that we live has been created in order to teach us the value of perfect love.

Does "perfect love" ever allows you to say "I hate Person X"?

Does "perfect love" ever allows you to kill people or group of people?

Does "perfect love" ever allows you to order others to slaughter groups of people, including babies and children?

Can the "personafication of perfect love" directly kill a baby?

God has done all of those, according to the bible.  How can the "personafication of perfect love" be someone that kills, including babies?  How can "perfect love" order the death of large group of people?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Dominic on January 01, 2013, 10:47:27 PM

3Sigma

You repeatedly ask theists to distinguish between their claims and imagination.

So what distinguishes (your) physical reality (experience) from imagination or from a dream ?  What proof do you have that the physical world is not imagination or a dream ?

You are in the same boat as a theist if you try to answer this.

If you call this request 'solipsist' in an attempt to dismiss it then you will simply be hiding behind a label to avoid addressing perhaps the most basic issue of (our) reality.

To try and save some time I will make a quick comment on a common claim concerning the fundamental differences between dreams and physical reality -

'Dreams are not (logically) consistent.  Physical reality is.'

My response:  There is no reason why a dream could not be logically consistent - and if you look at human behaviour there are plenty of examples of logical inconsistency (ie waking inconsistency).

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: keeta on January 01, 2013, 10:53:53 PM
i make no apologies, i have no god. i am the ruler of me. i make my own choices, and i live with those choices i've made. when my body gives out or gives up, i'll cease to be in the physical world.
i do believe there is something unknown that happens to who we are after we leave this world as we know it.
i know i have asked for very specific things to happen from an extreamly close loved one who died, and i got the answers i needed to my questions. like locating certain items for a police investigation, i can't explain it any other way than i got help from the one person who knew, who happened to have just died extreamly tragically. i'm not saying that was god in any way, shape or form. that would take away from my loved ones efforts to help me, and i wont do that to her.  she was real. she was good. she helped others. and none of that mattered, she was still murdered anyway. she didn't deserve that. nor did her children or family. she's better than the god the bible speaks of, and i actually knew her, had proof of her. i'll believe in her any day of the week. god...well...i don't believe in santa, i don't know why i should believe in god.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on January 01, 2013, 11:24:13 PM
So what distinguishes (your) physical reality (experience) from imagination or from a dream?  What proof do you have that the physical world is not imagination or a dream?

Imagination (http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/imagination) is the faculty or action of forming images or concepts of external objects not present to the senses. The physical world is present to my senses. I can see, hear, touch, smell and taste things in the physical world. I can turn to someone next to me and say, “Did you see/hear that?”, and under normal circumstances expect them to say yes. I can use instruments to detect phenomena that I can’t detect directly with my physical senses.

Can you do any of that with your god? Can you see hear, hear, touch, smell or taste your god with your physical senses or is everything you feel about your god entirely within your imagination? If you see or hear your god and I’m standing right next to you, will I also see or hear it? Can you use any instrument to detect the presence of your god? The answer to all those questions is no so in no way are we in the same boat. You have nothing to distinguish your belief in your god from imagination. If you think you have then go right ahead and provide it.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Dominic on January 01, 2013, 11:28:10 PM
So what distinguishes (your) physical reality (experience) from imagination or from a dream?  What proof do you have that the physical world is not imagination or a dream?

Imagination (http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/imagination) is the faculty or action of forming images or concepts of external objects not present to the senses. The physical world is present to my senses. I can see, hear, touch, smell and taste things in the physical world. I can turn to someone next to me and say, “Did you see/hear that?”, and under normal circumstances expect them to say yes. I can use instruments to detect phenomena that I can’t detect directly with my physical senses.


All of that can also be done in a dream.  Please verify with certainty that you are not dreaming

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: William on January 01, 2013, 11:52:04 PM
Please verify with certainty that you are not dreaming

It can't be done with 100% certainty.  But even if we were dreaming it is not even necessary to verify it - we'll deal with it if/when we wake up.  Meanwhile we can operate quite satisfactorily, and things plod along constantly and predictably - quite unlike in the dreams we know about from the perspective of our awake state. 

Just enjoy it for what it is - the only reality we know.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: keeta on January 02, 2013, 12:01:16 AM
i've had a brain injury and no longer remember dreams...not for the last 10 years have i remembered them. i'm sure i'm having them still, but i'm not able to recall information from them. details tend to not stick around for me, though i can remember how someone made me feel even if i can't remember who they are or what we've talked about :D
Can't hold a grudge to save my life, can't be mad if i don't remember why i'm mad ;)
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on January 02, 2013, 12:09:50 AM
All of that can also be done in a dream.  Please verify with certainty that you are not dreaming

Once again you retreat into solipsism in an effort to avoid confronting the fact that your god is entirely within your imagination. However, it doesn’t matter if this is a dream. For the sake of argument, let’s say reality is a dream. You could even say that dream is within another dream and it still wouldn’t matter. All those differences I mentioned still hold with what we perceive as reality whether it’s a dream or not and you still cannot demonstrate that your belief in your god meets the same standards.

And, of course, you evaded every single question I asked. Can you see hear, hear, touch, smell or taste your god with your physical senses or is everything you feel about your god entirely within your imagination? If you see or hear your god and I’m standing right next to you, will I also see or hear it? Can you use any instrument to detect the presence of your god? Even if this is all a dream, you still can’t do any of those things. Your god still exists only within your imagination.

How about answering the questions I ask instead of engaging in all this sophistry and evasion? For a start, you could answer the questions in the OP, which you still haven’t attempted to do.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Dominic on January 02, 2013, 12:19:18 AM
Please verify with certainty that you are not dreaming

It can't be done with 100% certainty.  But even if we were dreaming it is not even necessary to verify it - we'll deal with it if/when we wake up.  Meanwhile we can operate quite satisfactorily, and things plod along constantly and predictably - quite unlike in the dreams we know about from the perspective of our awake state. 

Just enjoy it for what it is - the only reality we know.

A very reasonable and sensible approach.

Once someone recognises that approach they should also realise that they have no grounds for belittling the beliefs of others or for thinking their own beliefs are somehow superior.

And we'll all perhaps know a little better when we wake up.

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: keeta on January 02, 2013, 12:22:30 AM
match point dominic ;)
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: William on January 02, 2013, 12:31:29 AM
Once someone recognises that approach they should also realise that they have no grounds for belittling the beliefs of others or for thinking their own beliefs are somehow superior.

Well no.  Dominic if you actually thought atheists had an Achilles heel because they may be dreaming, then why do you debate with them? 

See, the probability that I'm indeed dreaming is very close to zero - based on the evidence.
Whereas the probability that any gods exists is very close to zero - based on the evidence.

This is not a level playing field at all.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Dominic on January 02, 2013, 12:40:11 AM
Once someone recognises that approach they should also realise that they have no grounds for belittling the beliefs of others or for thinking their own beliefs are somehow superior.

Well no.  Dominic if you actually thought atheists had an Achilles heel because they may be dreaming, then why do you debate with them? 

To remind them that they may be dreaming ie to consider all perspectives.  To put it another way - for the same reason that Morpheus offered Neo the two pills.
Quote

See, the probability that I'm indeed dreaming is very close to zero - based on the evidence.
Whereas the probability that any gods exists is very close to zero - based on the evidence.

This is not a level playing field at all.

The concept of physical 'evidence' ASSUMES that you are not dreaming.  I don't think that you have grasped that important point yet.

You can only search for physical evidence if you are not dreaming.

Physical evidence cannot address the question of whether or not you are dreaming.

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: William on January 02, 2013, 01:12:23 AM
The concept of physical 'evidence' ASSUMES that you are not dreaming.  I don't think that you have grasped that important point yet.

No, I got that.

The point you are struggling with is that all assumptions are not equal.  The mere fact that you debate with me is evidence I'm not dreaming and all other evidence in my life adds to that.   It's a safe assumption.  Understand?

The same cannot be said for the assumptions that gods exist.  The beliefs in gods vary, contradict, and change over time.  They are shaky assumptions full of absurdities.  They are laughable and need validation - something which you seem reluctant to do.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Skinz on January 02, 2013, 01:50:35 AM
The concept of physical 'evidence' ASSUMES that you are not dreaming.  I don't think that you have grasped that important point yet.

You can only search for physical evidence if you are not dreaming.

Physical evidence cannot address the question of whether or not you are dreaming.

Purposely going into this territory smacks of obfuscation, man. With logic and philosophical reasoning, you can argue around and around in circles in this field without ever presenting a potential weakness. I call stalemate.

Let's assume, thought, that we are dreaming. All of us, dreaming (I assume) separate dreams. You (A fragment of my ego) have still presented me, in my dream, with no compelling arguments for faith in an intelligent creator... Rather, you've advanced the idea that ones fantasy can be as concrete as ones reality, a concept that is SURE to bite you (me) in the ass in a future debate (with myself)  ;)
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on January 02, 2013, 06:16:42 AM
The concept of physical 'evidence' ASSUMES that you are not dreaming.  I don't think that you have grasped that important point yet.

It's good that Dominic agrees that his god is no more real than a dream.....   ;D
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jetson on January 02, 2013, 07:40:53 AM
It is a very common approach from theists to attempt to show that reality may not be what we think it is, therefore we stand on equal ground and cannot criticize their delusions about their gods.  If they cannot show any evidence for their assertions, they are left with little choice but to try to bring the rest of us down to their unsupported level.

I'm not sure why the fact that no god has ever been shown to actually exist, has ever entered the mindset of the common theist.  That alone should be a wake up call.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: screwtape on January 02, 2013, 09:42:27 AM

3Sigma

You repeatedly ask theists to distinguish between their claims and imagination.

So what distinguishes (your) physical reality (experience) from imagination or from a dream ?  What proof do you have that the physical world is not imagination or a dream ?

You are in the same boat as a theist if you try to answer this.

If you call this request 'solipsist' in an attempt to dismiss it then you will simply be hiding behind a label to avoid addressing perhaps the most basic issue of (our) reality.

Um, no, it isn't hiding behind a label.  It is pointing out that the brain-in-a-jar argument goes nowhere for either of us.  On top of that, neither of us - you nor I - behave as if we are just brains-in-jars.  You are arguing a point you do not even agree with by bringing it up.

Solipsism is the nuclear option for arguments.  It destroys all rational belief in everything, including parochial iron age deities.  You might as well bring lastTuesdayism into the discussion too.  You know, the idea that the entire universe was created last Tuesday, and it was done in such a way as to make it completely and seamlessly appear as if it was 13.5 billion years old. 

It is a stupid and dishonest argument.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: wheels5894 on January 02, 2013, 09:54:07 AM


The concept of physical 'evidence' ASSUMES that you are not dreaming.  I don't think that you have grasped that important point yet.

You can only search for physical evidence if you are not dreaming.

Physical evidence cannot address the question of whether or not you are dreaming.

Dominic, I think you know exactly how we know we are not dreaming when we look for physical evidence but here's the argument to help- you anyway.

Now, in my dreams, whatever I see cannot be seen by anyone else and even I don't see the same thing twice. Now if a researcher in Australia sees something in the night sky, say a supernova, and it turns out that people in Russia, the UK Canada etc can also see it, then it can't be the dream of the researcher in Australia.

Of course, there is  the question of how we behave in the real world. After all, how we act has something to do with what we think. Now, as far as I am concerned, I meet people, buy goods, drive a car on the basis that these things are part of my physical world. Indeed, I am sending you  message now about this - I would hardly do that if I thought I was dreaming.

Now, Dominic, if you think there is reason to think the opposite, what are your arguments- not that you would post them as you would be dreaming!
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Mooby on January 02, 2013, 10:46:39 PM
Where am I getting this information? (Of course, I was lumping deluded people in with liars.) The slippery answer is that you are free to name anybody honest, who has God speaking through them. The more general answer is that any lying bastard seems free to start a cult or religion, and I surmise that in a universe that God genuinely did not interact with, these manipulators would be hard at work, creating religions, to exploit the desperate and gullible; so it would look no different to our own religiousphere, where you propose that a God really does interact [or matter] within it. I derive this from the conflciting diversity of religions on this planet, that have evolved.
I have to disagree with you there.  In the universe you described (or one with an absent deity), all of the cults/religions would have had to be started for gain/exploitation, or out of delusion.  I don't see on what basis you can conclude that such a universe would be identical to our current one.

For instance, if we imagined a universe were all lawyers were greedy, it's a bit of a hasty conclusion to say that such a universe would be identical to our own.  Sure, we could cite the average salary of lawyers or their stereotype as greedy, or point out that greedy people are free to become lawyers, or even sample individual lawyers, but we don't know whether the outliers would change the universe.  If 4% of lawyers are not greedy, we could easily get a >95% sample and conclude all lawyers are greedy, but that could still result in a vast difference between a universe with 96% greedy lawyers and 100% greedy lawyers via the butterfly effect.

Similarly, I don't see how the mere existence of diversity in religious belief is evidence that our universe is identical to one where all religions were founded on delusion or deceit.  Especially with many religious beliefs being so ancient, it's impossible to say what the result would be.  Hinduism, for example, is nearly 4000 years old.  How can we predict how our world would be different depending on whether the original Vedic writings were based on legitimate experience or fraud?  How can we say that Christianity would be exactly the same if Jesus was liar, lord, or lunatic?  Or Islam's Muhammad, for that matter?  Or any other religion with its founders?

Quote
It should come as no surprise to you, that I think that the evolutionary shaping-forces on religion are what the adherents want to believe, rather than what the silent God actually wants; so, the religions should converge, in universes where God does not talk to us.
No, that does not come as a surprise to me.  But as I don't believe in a deistic god, I don't believe God is silent, so I don't reach the same conclusion.

Quote
A horrific thing might be, if a God really did talk to us, and we found out how he wanted something entirely different to what we had wanted. He might for example say, "I don't like you. I want you all to die." We might reply, "We don't like you, and will continue to love each other, and do our best", to which he might reply "Go ahead, it's pointless; I will kill you all in the end, anyway." That might be a real God talking, so it's just as well he leaves us alone, to invent shit.

How does that prevent Yougod from being omnimax? He becomes irrelevantmax.
God going all Marshall Brain on this universe kind of contradicts being omnimax.  I don't see how a deity could fit both being omnimax and your description.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Azdgari on January 03, 2013, 01:09:52 AM
Once someone recognises that approach they should also realise that they have no grounds for belittling the beliefs of others or for thinking their own beliefs are somehow superior.

Except that if I'm dreaming, then you are a figment of my dream and I have every reason to belittle your beliefs, since they are out-of-sync with the dream-reality I know.

And we'll all perhaps know a little better when we wake up.

Who is "we"?  The real people, or the dream-figments like you?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Dominic on January 04, 2013, 05:20:39 PM
Once someone recognises that approach they should also realise that they have no grounds for belittling the beliefs of others or for thinking their own beliefs are somehow superior.

Except that if I'm dreaming, then you are a figment of my dream and I have every reason to belittle your beliefs, since they are out-of-sync with the dream-reality I know.

You dream me up and then you belittle me!  That's a a bit mean : - )  Try waking up and rolling on your other side.
Quote

And we'll all perhaps know a little better when we wake up.

Who is "we"?  The real people, or the dream-figments like you?

We'll know that when we wake up also!
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Azdgari on January 04, 2013, 10:55:34 PM
I meant that response seriously, Dominic.

And your response to the second quote still uses a "we" that you have not defined.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 05, 2013, 02:35:55 PM
My belief in God is primarily of my upbringing in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and secondarily because I have a life just filled with incidents that cannot be explained in any other way than the supernatural.  Now I will admit, that these supernatural incidences are always filtered through my Christian upbringing, and so their interpretations.  If you'd like an example you can read one of the latest supernatural incidences and comment on what conclusion you would have come to if the same thing had happened to you.  The story is of how a 23 year old answer to prayer was really a prophetic message that wasn't to be understood as such until now.  My Christian filter causes me to come to some conclusions, like that God is omnicient, and that He wants at least me to know he's omnicient or he wouldn't have set me up with this remarkable coincidence in order to prove it to me.  I have a number of these true stories, but for now, please take a look at this one, since Sandy Hook makes it doubly relevent.  http://tinyurl.com/darkknightpremonition
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: bertatberts on January 05, 2013, 03:03:25 PM
Hi Wayne, if you would like to post it up. we would be happy to respond to it and give our critique on it.

We don't respond to links, you would have to write it here, links are only used for reference. ok
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 05, 2013, 04:22:05 PM
Wayne, welcome!

I had a quick look at the linked page. Didn't read it in detail. I might later.  Seemed like you were stretching things a bit but I could be wrong.'

By the way, prayer is not outlawed in schools. Kids can pray any time they want. Even your daughter. Its just that we have this separation and church/state thing where people shouldn't have religion, general or specific, forced upon them, as per, you know, the founding fathers. And a god that gets upset about no prayer in school but cares less about people who pray then harm (certain catholic priests, Westboro Baptist Church and others) makes it sound like he is nitpicking. If it is important for you to simplify the worlds problems and give them only one cause, go ahead and blame prayer. But if it is even remotely possible that other factors are involved, you might pray for additional insights too. The world doesn't operate well for folks who think there that life is so simple that one tiny change will fix everything.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 12 Monkeys on January 05, 2013, 04:29:58 PM
Mooby why is it you think ALL cults and such need a religious base? It is just to separate fools from their gold. Once accepted as false these cults and such disappear along with the fools gold,plain and simple. Have you ever wondered why the Catholic church holds onto all those treasures they have plundered over the centuries? It is not so they can follow the message of Christs and tend to the poor.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on January 06, 2013, 03:00:53 AM
The story is of how a 23 year old answer to prayer was really a prophetic message that wasn't to be understood as such until now. 

I read the glurge - and I don't actually see ANY supernatural intervention there at all.  You didn't want to see films, but you were convinced to go to one, and while on the way there, lots of people got gassed and some were killed, so in the end you didn't see the movie.  I see nothing "supernatural" here at all, so can you please clarify?

Or are you in fact suggesting that the gassing was in some way caused by your loving god?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: DumpsterFire on January 06, 2013, 03:37:48 AM
I will admit, that these supernatural incidences are always filtered through my Christian upbringing, and so their interpretations.  If you'd like an example you can read one of the latest supernatural incidences and comment on what conclusion you would have come to if the same thing had happened to you.  The story is of how a 23 year old answer to prayer was really a prophetic message that wasn't to be understood as such until now.

Hello Wayne, welcome to the forum. Theists are definitely in the minority around here, and very few stick around for long. I sincerely hope you are one of the rare ones who can demonstrate some real gumption.

I actually did give your missives a decent perusal, and I have to say that I find you more than a little frightening. How anyone can come to the ridiculous conclusions that you have is truly disturbing. Allow me to, if you'll pardon the pun, shoot a few holes in your reasoning:

1. You claim that your '89 Batman movie experience in which the theater was shut down due to a gas leak so closely mirrors the events of the 2012 Aurora theater massacre that no one in their right mind could possibly deny that the former was a premonition of the latter. Really, Wayne? The only legitimate similarity between the stories is that both involve a Batman film. If the theater which you were unable to enter in '89 had then been shot up by a madman you might have yourself a pretty compelling story. No, just a regular ol' gas leak that can and does happen quite frequently. I guess we should at least be grateful that you were able to figure out god's convoluted warning and stop the Aurora shootings though, right? Except for the fact that you didn't stop shit, did you? I have to ask, what good is a prophecy if one cannot determine its meaning until after the prophesied event takes place?

2. You hold that the Aurora and more recent Newtown massacres are a direct result of the 1962 initiatives banning prayer in schools, but as ParkingPlaces has already correctly pointed out, anyone can say a prayer at school. It is only organized, sanctioned prayer that is frowned upon, and for very good reasons, chief among them the fact that even theists rarely agree on anything. We have an incredibly diverse society. Would you be OK with your kid being subject to sanctioned school prayers to Allah every day? How 'bout Vishnu? Odin? Even xtians can't agree with each other most of the time. I can assure you that most born-agains would not be comfortable with their kids participating in LDS run prayer groups, 'cause Mormon god is bad, mmmkay?

Tell me something Wayne, if school massacres are a result of no prayer in schools how do you explain the PA Amish school shooting in '06? I guarantee you there was a shit ton of praying going on in that school, but somehow even they couldn't earn god's protection. Are you aware that the deadliest school massacre in U.S. history took place in Bath Township, MI in 1927? That was well before "god was no longer welcome in schools," yet 45 people, including 38 children, were killed. Guess ol' god was just warming up.

What makes you so certain that prayers for children's safety must be made from schools or they will fall on deaf ears? What kind of callous prick are you worshipping who cares from which geographic location you pray? It is especially egregious that you would make such a claim when the very prayer that you believe caused a gas leak, thereby protecting your little girl from seeing a "questionable" film, was made in the car on the way to the theater!

3. The most disturbing part of your idiotic diatribe is closing it as follows:

Quote from: Wayne's Fundie Blog
If we fail to repent, the banning of guns is next, and foolishly, the darkened minds of the unrepentant will accept the ban which will usher in the inevitable tyrannical regime, which is the default form of government in a world without God.

Jeebus H. Cripes, Wayne, that is seriously your conclusion?!!! What a coward you are. So any society without god and/or guns will, by default, be under a tyrannical regime? Sorry Chicken Little, but the facts just don't back you up. The majority of countries which limit citizen's access to firearms are democratic nations with relatively high rates of atheism, and very few cases of gun-related murders.

Please reconsider your ridiculous position.

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: DumpsterFire on January 06, 2013, 03:41:26 AM
I read the glurge - and I don't actually see ANY supernatural intervention there at all.  You didn't want to see films, but you were convinced to go to one, and while on the way there, lots of people got gassed and some were killed, so in the end you didn't see the movie.  I see nothing "supernatural" here at all, so can you please clarify?

Or are you in fact suggesting that the gassing was in some way caused by your loving god?

I didn't read anything in the '89 story that mentioned people getting killed, just a gas leak that caused the theater to be evacuated.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 06, 2013, 11:11:02 PM
I'd like to offer you a challenge,
I bet you can't edit your remarks in such a way as to eliminate invectives , insults, and profanity.  You need me to be a coward do you?  Is that kind of abuse necessary for you to defend your position?

I do appreciate you taking the time to read and comment, but I'll not respond to your flaming aggression.  That's sick puppy material right there.

I'll leave my story as it stands, if you wish not to believe it then I actually respect that.  You weren't there, and I was.  I've written my account and I stand by it.

Try this one out, it's one more of my considerable list of stories. 

http://tinyurl.com/CattleOnThousandHills

Here's a general statement I'll make to define why what I've written need not be defended rationally.  This rational world and universe is but a sandbox in which man's brightest intellects play,  I can both admire all that man has been able to achieve within that sandbox and still understand that the creator of that sandbox isn't limited by it, even if we are.  The supernatural is simply that, supernatural.  It is meant by its very nature to be irrational to those who limit themselves to the sandbox.
In a way, God is granting to unbelieving man plausable deniability, because he doesn't feel any obligation to reduce his supernatural ability to sandbox terms.  He does however reward a few who believe in him with a peek outside the sandbox from time to time.  You have to admit, that if what I'm saying is true, it would explain why only a few are aware of it.  I have been privaleged to see outside the sandbox, but only a peek.  I'm not certain that I want to see any more than I have, because a little goes a long way.
I'll not work myself up defending the supernatural, only to report it.  Flame at it if you must, but forgive me if I'm not invested in defending it by sandbox terms.  It can't be done.
Thanks again for reading.
 

Sorry if links aren't appropriate here.  At least one of you were able to crack the code. 

God Bless.  Wayne
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Aaron123 on January 06, 2013, 11:35:13 PM
I'd like to offer you a challenge,
I bet you can't edit your remarks in such a way as to eliminate invectives , insults, and profanity.  You need me to be a coward do you?  Is that kind of abuse necessary for you to defend your position?

I do appreciate you taking the time to read and comment, but I'll not respond to your flaming aggression.  That's sick puppy material right there.

You sure got huffy in a hurry.


Quote
Try this one out, it's one more of my considerable list of stories. 

http://tinyurl.com/CattleOnThousandHills


Alright, I'll look at it.


Quote
Dana had stickers on her truck and one said ‘SMUT PEDDLERS’. Whatever that is I don't want to know,

"Smutt Peddlers" refers to a punk band from California.  With song titles like "Fuck you, that's why" and "Let's get fucked up", they're probably not to your taste. (understatment of the day)

That, or it's refering to people that distributes pornographic materials.


Quote
I said let's look online and see the transaction on my Credit card website. There it was, all of
one dollar. Her eyes were watery, and she was confused, as was I for it certainly was the correct
transaction. In the meantime Pat in the background could be heard editorializing on the ridiculousness
of my buying the gas in the first place. (I'm down playing my wife's comments again), to which I was able
to reply calling down the hallway: "Dana's paying me back and it is only a dollar!".

Bang bam boom.

We're both stunned but she more than I, as this is how profound God's leading has been for me.

I explained to Dana that even if we see the transaction come up later that I still call it and answer from
God as a reward to her for honoring her father in love.

I'm trying to see if I understand this correctly.  Your credit card statement was a grand total of $1, and it was a sign from god?

Your god is pathetically unimpressive if that's the case.  one dollar; big whoop.


Quote
As Dana was getting ready for her first return to Church, she again came into my office and wanted to
know if the charge had ever made it to the card, still insisting she repay. I said: "Let's take a look". We
went back to the card’s website only to find that he dollar charge had disappeared completely, and to
add to it, the tank of gas I bought 50 miles away by the Ford dealership north of LA was not on it either.
The act of driving all the way to Galpin Motors was my act of spiritual obedience and honor of the
Heavenly Father. My daughter’s conceding to my request to clean up her truck was her act of
obedience and honor of her father. The reward for each of us was a free tank of gas from two different
gas brands, 50 miles apart. Most significant is the way the Lord brought the reality of the free gas to my
attention.

http://www.missionariesofafrica.org/challenges/water1.html

In Africa, as much as 2,500 children die everyday due to lack of clean water.  But you know what?  Fuck 'em!  Your free gas is much more important than those skinny bag of bones.  Am I right?  (*cough*)
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: wheels5894 on January 07, 2013, 04:27:14 AM
Here's a general statement I'll make to define why what I've written need not be defended rationally.  This rational world and universe is but a sandbox in which man's brightest intellects play,  I can both admire all that man has been able to achieve within that sandbox and still understand that the creator of that sandbox isn't limited by it, even if we are.  The supernatural is simply that, supernatural.  It is meant by its very nature to be irrational to those who limit themselves to the sandbox.
In a way, God is granting to unbelieving man plausable deniability, because he doesn't feel any obligation to reduce his supernatural ability to sandbox terms.  He does however reward a few who believe in him with a peek outside the sandbox from time to time.  You have to admit, that if what I'm saying is true, it would explain why only a few are aware of it.  I have been privaleged to see outside the sandbox, but only a peek.  I'm not certain that I want to see any more than I have, because a little goes a long way.
I'll not work myself up defending the supernatural, only to report it.  Flame at it if you must, but forgive me if I'm not invested in defending it by sandbox terms.  It can't be done.
Thanks again for reading.
 

You may not want to defend your views on your sandbox ideas but surely you an tell us how you came to the conclusions that you have? See, for most people on the board have concluded that there isn't any evidence of any sort of god - that's why we are atheists. We come form all sorts of backgrounds included long-time church members. I even hold a theology degree. What we all realised at some time was that the universe doesn't have any evidence for a god.

So, please, at least tell us how you came to you version of a god and the sandbox version of the earth.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jynnan tonnix on January 07, 2013, 11:27:56 AM
I have to wonder, Wayne, about some of the bits of your stories that you seem to slide right over.

You make a couple of references to your wife. In the first story, you assume that when Dana says she has seen Batman, that her mother took her to see the film. Does your wife frequently do things which would seem to completely opposed to your values without discussing them? I'm not suggesting that your wife doesn't have the right to do this, only that it's surprising, given your level of investment in Christianity and in your daughter's spiritual welfare, that there would not be some guidelines laid out which, as parents, you would try to be consistent on.

In the second story, you mention that your wife does not approve of your helping Dana. Also that while Dana is currently sober, there are things ranging from her attire to her bumper stickers (and thus, presumably taste in , given the "smut peddlers") which you do not approve of. I can also glean that she has been estraged from you and your wife for at least some of the recent years.

So, despite your obsessive avoidance of anything (like movies and television) which might lead to Satan managing to gain a foothold into your, or your daughter's life, that strategy seems not have worked out too well. How is it that many kids are exposed to "worldly" influences and brought up in agnostic or atheist homes and turn out to be well-adjusted, rounded and balanced adults while the child of someone who spends every moment focused on god, prayer, and the avoidace on evil goes on to rebel and cause all sorts of family strife? Is that your reward?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Mooby on January 07, 2013, 06:22:55 PM
Mooby why is it you think ALL cults and such need a religious base?
They don't. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landmark_Education)

Of course, the modern definition of "cult" tends to restrict it to religious groups, so your question is sort of like asking why all mammals have a backbone.

Quote
Have you ever wondered why the Catholic church holds onto all those treasures they have plundered over the centuries? It is not so they can follow the message of Christs and tend to the poor.
I don't see what this has to do with whether my belief in God is valid.

That being said, the Catholic Church does not view its treasures as assets; it values its artworks and artifacts at 1 euro each.  It considers them works belonging to all of humanity, not to be traded or sold at auction.  It is also not an organization founded to give to the poor; it is an organization founded to spread Christ's message.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: kcrady on January 07, 2013, 08:04:44 PM
3Sigma

You repeatedly ask theists to distinguish between their claims and imagination.

So what distinguishes (your) physical reality (experience) from imagination or from a dream ?  What proof do you have that the physical world is not imagination or a dream ?

First of all, "dream" presupposes the existence of a non-dream reality.  We can tell what a "dream" is by comparing it to our waking state.  If the question was really confusing to anybody but schizophrenics, college kids hitting a bong in their dorm room after their first philosophy class, and theists, we wouldn't even be able to have a word for "dream" and know what it means.  It wouldn't be possible to try to demote reality by saying "How do you know it's not all a dream?" if "dream" did not connote a different kind of experience than what we have when we're awake.
 
You are in the same boat as a theist if you try to answer this.

No I'm not.  The difference between reality and a theist's imaginings is that reality doesn't go away when one stops believing in it.

My response:  There is no reason why a dream could not be logically consistent

Sure.  But it also disappears when the alarm clock rings.  Also, it doesn't have to be, and more often than not, it isn't. 

- and if you look at human behaviour there are plenty of examples of logical inconsistency (ie waking inconsistency).

People behaving irrationally is not at all the same sort of thing as a dream's "physics engine" breaking down, which is what is meant by reality being "consistent" vs. a dream's inconsistency.  When one of these irrational people can mount up on their flying carpet and go to work, or if they're in their living room one moment and in the middle of the Sahara Desert the next, you'll have a point.

The concept of physical 'evidence' ASSUMES that you are not dreaming.  I don't think that you have grasped that important point yet.

You've got it bass ackwards.  "Dreaming" presupposes the existence of non-dream reality.  What are you dreaming about?  And who or what, by the way, is doing the dreaming?  If there was no reality, there would be nobody to do any dreaming, and nothing to be dreamed about.

You can only search for physical evidence if you are not dreaming.

Well alright then.  There's one good way to prove we're not dreaming!  Search for physical evidence!  Better than pinching yourself, eh?  I just decided to eat a piece of chocolate.  I couldn't see any chocolate, and none materialized into my mouth.  So, I reached into a bag that seemed likely to contain chocolate.  It's a bag of chocolate chips, and I had no recollection of emptying it and no one else had the opportunity, so it had a very high prior probability of containing chocolate chips.  I felt objects inside, so I took hold of a couple of them.  Small, dark brown, and in the normal shape for chocolate chips.  So now the posterior probabilities in favor of chocolate chips go way up.  I stick them in my mouth, and sure enough!  They taste like chocolate!  Omnomnom!  There.  I'm not dreaming.  And if you were here, I could reach into the bag and offer you some chocolate chips.  For some reason, I rather doubt you could do anything similar, when it comes to your god.

Nonetheless, you do it all the time in the waking world, which means you know full well that your bafflegab about dreaming is unmitigated bullshit.  You're on your way to work.  You step out to your car and reach into your pocket--nothing there.  You try your other pockets--nothing there.  Do you just dream up your keys, or segue straight to your job without having to drive or get there any other way?  No.  You go back into your house, and you search.  Maybe you'll find them on the coffee table, or in the pocket of the pants you wore yesterday.  In a situation like this have you ever thought, 'Well, maybe my job is just a dream so I guess I don't really have to go, much less worry about being "late."  "Lateness" is only a dream, and I'd rather dream about being on a Caribbean beach with some attractive member of my preferred gender'? 

Physical evidence cannot address the question of whether or not you are dreaming.

Now you're contradicting yourself.  You just said that you can't search for evidence if you're dreaming, so according to you, the very act (not to mention the need) to search for evidence (such as for the presence and availability of your car keys) is inconsistent with being in a dream.  Right here, right now, we're searching for evidence of a god, anybody's god.  You know that you can't just dream one up for us, or dream that we're theists just like you.  You know that the Universe you're inhabiting as you read this doesn't work that way.  Otherwise, you would not have tried to make an argument about dreaming; you'd have just dreamed.

---

I would like to draw attention to the way the theists are arguing here.  They are not attempting to validate the existence of their gods.  Nor do they just say, "No I can't validate the existence of my God, but that's OK--I believe in him for other reasons than correspondence to reality.  My religion provides a mythic narrative structure that gives order and direction to my life.  It gives me membership in a community of like-minded individuals who help each other in time of need and provide moral teamwork that encourages us all be better people.  It provides ritual and meditative practice that brings me joy and piece of mind.  I don't need you to believe in my God or join my religion any more than I need you to be a fan of the Kansas City Chiefs."

Instead of validating their beliefs or explaining why they don't need to, they try to attack the very concept of validation itself.  Dominic tries the "we could all be dreaming/brains in a jar/living in the Matrix" Intro to Philosophy approach.  Wayne tries to define reality as a "sandbox" that his god exists outside of, ignoring the fact that physicists have no trouble whatsoever dealing with the concept of realms outside and beyond our own (multiverse theory, M-Theory, etc.).  I wish that when people did this sort of thing, that three people in lab coats would suddenly jump out of the nearest closet or door like Monty Python's Spanish Inquisition and shout, "YOU ARE BANNED FROM SCIENCE!" after which the person would find that nothing more complicated than a flint hand-axe would work for them.[1]
 1. Yes, I know there's actually quite a bit of science incorporated into the working of a hand axe, not to mention the knowledge and practice it takes to make one.  But I'm not completely ruthless.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Jag on January 07, 2013, 08:38:00 PM
...am I the only one who thinks Wayne's God stealing from gas stations is rather ungodlike? For a sign that apparently shows Wayne that god is on his side, what exactly was god telling the business owners he stole from?

I bet they aren't calling it "free gas" in the same tone of voice that Wayne and his god are.

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: kcrady on January 07, 2013, 08:46:12 PM
Or maybe Yahweh was testing Wayne, to see if he would be honest, and make sure the gas stations got paid for their gas.  If so...FAIL.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on January 07, 2013, 11:46:10 PM
I would like to draw attention to the way the theists are arguing here.  They are not attempting to validate the existence of their gods.

I’ve been meaning to point that out myself. Instead of trying to validate their beliefs, they are trying to shield them from examination. We see this all the time from religious believers.

I sometimes think there is an implicit Prime Commandment, “Thou shalt not question”. It would explain all the proclamations of unbelievers will burn in Hell and the penalties for apostasy and heresy.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: DumpsterFire on January 08, 2013, 02:39:09 AM
I'd like to offer you a challenge,
I bet you can't edit your remarks in such a way as to eliminate invectives , insults, and profanity. 

Wayne, when you choose to join an atheist message board and make claims which atheists will likely find ridiculous, it would be wise to expect said claims to be subject to ridicule. You should also be prepared to shrug it off, put on your big boy pants, and defend your position, assuming you honestly believe it to be correct (and I'm pretty sure you do).

As I said at the top of my post, theists need some thick skin and gumption to get along around here. Few have it, which is why they're seldom here for very long. And playing the "I'm too outraged by the little bit of your post that I found insulting to respond to the many legitimate points and questions you raised" card just comes across like a cop-out excuse to avoid having to actually examine and rationally explain your beliefs.

Be all that as it may, after reviewing my original reply I will admit that I was a bit harsher on you (especially on your very first post) than I should have been. To be fair, it was 3 AM, I had a few drinks in me, and I found your statement on gun control to be particularly maddening.

So I will accept your challenge, but I do so with the expectation that you will reasonably respond to my posts in kind, OK? So let's give it a go:

Quote
You need me to be a coward do you?  Is that kind of abuse necessary for you to defend your position?

I don't need you to be anything but honest. Being afraid of more gun regulations and afraid that a tyrannical government will surely follow more gun regulations is, in my opinion, a fairly cowardly perspective on the situation. You have already stated that you believe god protects you and your family due to prayer, so I have to ask why is it you feel you need a gun at all? Why are you so convinced that gun control inevitably leads to governmental tyranny? Do you think the average citizen of the U.K., Australia, or Japan considers his government to be tyrannical?
Quote
I'll leave my story as it stands, if you wish not to believe it then I actually respect that.  You weren't there, and I was.  I've written my account and I stand by it.
I never said you were lying about your experiences because I don't think you are. My only issue with your story is your assertion that your '89 experience was definitely a premonition/prophecy about the Aurora theater shooting 23 years later. But the similarities between the two events are hardly compelling. The best you've got is that both involved a Batman film (of which there have been 7, shown in thousands of theaters and viewed by hundreds of millions of people since '89) and a gas of some sort. There are literally no other similarities. To state with absolute certainty that the two are connected is quite a stretch, indeed. I'll ask you again, what use is a prophecy that can't be understood until after the event it supposedly predicts?

You claim that god has begun allowing children to be killed in schools (and occasionally theaters) because he is upset that sanctioned prayer in public schools was banned in 1962. If so, how do you explain the '06 Amish school shooting (a school that not only allows, but encourages and expects prayer) or the 1927 Bath Township massacre? Why was god willing to protect your little girl due to a prayer said in your car but will only protect other children if such prayers originate inside an institution of learning?


There, that ought to be enough for you to mull over, and said as respectfully as you're likely to find here.

I look forward to your response.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jaimehlers on January 08, 2013, 02:48:30 AM
Neither of Wayne's stories are convincing evidence of anything, except possibly his ability to discern patterns which don't have any meaning (which, in fairness, is shared by a lot of people).  The coincidence of him going to a Batman movie and having a gas leak keep him from attending, followed by his reference to a tragedy 23 years later at a different Batman movie (which led to a tragedy), is a classic example of confirmation bias.  He didn't want to take his daughter to the movie, which is understandable, so when a gas leak happened that forced the theater to be evacuated he saw that as the hand of God in action.  And it somehow caused him to predict the later tragedy at a different theater, two decades later.  The problem is that there's no reasonable way to tie the two together except that they both involved Batman movies (and not even the same actual movie) being shown in a movie theater.

How many movie theaters have had gas leaks that required an evacuation of the theater (or caused a fire and possibly deaths) during those 23 years?  How many thousands of Batman movies were shown in theaters without incident during that time?  I highly doubt he has even considered either of these points; instead, he saw the coincidence of them both involving Batman movies shown in theaters and jumped to the conclusion that the one was a prediction of the other.  As many people do, he only notices the congruence of the two events, and ignores all the other non-events that he didn't give so much as a thought to.

Other people have commented on the 'free' gas, so I don't see the need to belabor it further.  Except to say that he is again engaging in confirmation bias - seeing the free gas as a reward for "obedience and honor", rather than an honest mistake on the part of the gas stations (or some other, more likely explanation), and thus using that rationale as an excuse to justify why he and his daughter deserved the free gas.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on January 08, 2013, 05:11:21 AM
Neither of Wayne's stories are convincing evidence of anything, except possibly his ability to discern patterns which don't have any meaning (which, in fairness, is shared by a lot of people).  The coincidence of him going to a Batman movie and having a gas leak keep him from attending, followed by his reference to a tragedy 23 years later at a different Batman movie (which led to a tragedy), is a classic example of confirmation bias.  He didn't want to take his daughter to the movie, which is understandable, so when a gas leak happened that forced the theater to be evacuated he saw that as the hand of God in action.  And it somehow caused him to predict the later tragedy at a different theater, two decades later.  The problem is that there's no reasonable way to tie the two together except that they both involved Batman movies (and not even the same actual movie) being shown in a movie theater.

How many movie theaters have had gas leaks that required an evacuation of the theater (or caused a fire and possibly deaths) during those 23 years?  How many thousands of Batman movies were shown in theaters without incident during that time?  I highly doubt he has even considered either of these points; instead, he saw the coincidence of them both involving Batman movies shown in theaters and jumped to the conclusion that the one was a prediction of the other.  As many people do, he only notices the congruence of the two events, and ignores all the other non-events that he didn't give so much as a thought to.

Alternatively, let's say that it WAS a warning from god.  That Wayne has indeed been able to identify after the fact that one was a prediction.  As someone up there said, what IS the use of a prediction that nobody can understand until it has happened?  It's no use as a warning, certainly.

And let's look further: what IS Wayne saying about the original gas attack?  Is he saying that his god deliberately set it up as a warning to his followers of what might happen?  If that's the case, what does that mean?  Does it mean that - without the intervention of his god - the attack would NOT have happened?  Which of course begs the question as to why, if this god can and will intervene, it did NOT intervene to save people in the shooting incident.

The flip side, is that his god had no intervention in the original attack - did not cause it, did not take part, was (at best) an observer.  Unlikely to be the case, since we've seen that his god will intervene for a dollar's worth of gas, but let's assume it was what happened.  If so, how can this in any way be described as a "warning from god"?  One may as well say it was a "warning from Anfauglir", since the two of us had exactly the same level of involvement in the incident.

And if it was a warning....when did you deduce it was a warning, Wayne?  At what point did you realise "that gas attack at a Batman film means there will be a gun attack at a Batman film!".  In other words, was god's message clear to you - a staunch believer - far enough in advance for you to act upon it?

And if it was.....what did you do, Wayne?  Did you campaign tirelessly against Batman films for those 20+ years?  Did you picket all showings?  Continually demonstrate and issue warnings about the incident?  Because if you DIDN'T do so - and since clearly this warning was one that only YOU understood - are you not in a very real way cuplable for the deaths in 2012?  If you KNEW what was going to happen - and did nothing - does some of the blame for the deaths not lie squarely at your door?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: DumpsterFire on January 08, 2013, 09:27:58 AM
...what IS Wayne saying about the original gas attack?

For anyone who didn't actually read Wayne's linked stories, his original '89 Batman theater incident was not an attack, just a gas leak in the building. Although if it was truly caused by god, as Wayne believes, then I suppose god could be seen as an attacker.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on January 08, 2013, 09:39:42 AM
For anyone who didn't actually read Wayne's linked stories, his original '89 Batman theater incident was not an attack, just a gas leak in the building. Although if it was truly caused by god, as Wayne believes, then I suppose god could be seen as an attacker.

Apologies - gas leak, not attack.  It was such a lengthy glurge that I clearly missed the pertinent point. 

I think the same points apply, though.  Did his god cause the leak, thus revealing that he is perfectly able to intervene in the world and - for example - cause a firing pin not to function?  Because if god had nothing to do with it, then - like I said - the warning would just as well have come from me.

The fact that it was a gas leak, rather than an attack, also surely makes it much, much, less likely that anyone would be able to identify it as a "warning from god" and take appropriate action.  Leaks happen (unless Wayne is implying that ALL gas leaks are directly caused by god?), so what makes THAT one a warning, and not the one that happened a week later in the shopping mall?

What if, one day, there is a gas leak in a church hall?  Should we take that as a warning that whatever goes on in that church is an offence to god?  Wayne would probably agree.....so long as the church hall was a different denomination, of course.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jaimehlers on January 08, 2013, 09:51:07 AM
What if, one day, there is a gas leak in a church hall?  Should we take that as a warning that whatever goes on in that church is an offence to god?  Wayne would probably agree.....so long as the church hall was a different denomination, of course.
Reminds me of how people used to think that lightning strikes were a symbol of divine wrath.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: wheels5894 on January 08, 2013, 10:16:41 AM
[
The fact that it was a gas leak, rather than an attack, also surely makes it much, much, less likely that anyone would be able to identify it as a "warning from god" and take appropriate action.  Leaks happen (unless Wayne is implying that ALL gas leaks are directly caused by god?), so what makes THAT one a warning, and not the one that happened a week later in the shopping mall?

In the UK, we have a few cases where has leaks have caused explosions devastating whole houses and seriously injuring or killing occupants. I suppose the Wayne understanding is that these were people Satan was keep to have in his fiery realm or that god wanted excluded from his boring realm. 
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 09, 2013, 01:11:33 AM
I want to thank you all for your rapt attention to my two stories.  I'm not ignoring you, I've been working long hours out of town and I'm even too tired to make good use of this comment. 

My experiences ars so unusual that it caused me to admit in the beginning of these comments that I admit that my interpretations are run through the strainer of my christian upbringing.

The  free gas being stolen I had to run through that strainer and I rationalised it in that if Jesus can turn water to wine and multiply fishes at a picnic, he can certainly make Sams Club and Shell Oils books come out right.  They were two full tanks of gas, not one dollars worth to clarify.  The one dollar was a marker placed temporarly on my account for the purpose of the lesson for my daughter.  The one dollar charge disappeared the next time we looked.  I apologise for my preachy old typewitten tome from 1989.  It is important to read it in its entirety to understand.  If I were to write it today I wouldn't remove any of my conclusions but I would tighten it up.

Sorry not to have answered all your excellent points and observations, I hope to when I have more time. I have really enjoyed every comment, even the ridicule.  I think in time you will realise that though I might be interpreting everything through Christianity, I also test my conclusions through my imaginary atheist friend and so most if not all of your comments  have crossed my mind, which until just recently was quite well protected from unexplainable contradiction. 

If you enjoyed my last two stories, maybe you would like to read another from the 70s.
http://tinyurl.com/MercuryMontclairBW    Protection on the road, (someone wants me alive!)

I think you will take away from all this is that, because of the peculiar attention 'some' supernatural being has payed to me, atheism is not one of my options as it might be for you all.  If it makes you feel better, you may consider me rather limited on that regard.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: nogodsforme on January 09, 2013, 01:34:28 AM
If schools in predominantly Christian US are getting shot up because of the lack of official Christian prayers, then the schools in non-Christian Japan, China and India should be riddled with bullets on a regular basis. I wonder why parents in Japan aren't afraid of insane armed gunmen invading elementary schools and shooting their kids?

And why would god leave the schools in the US unprotected? Because he doesn't care about little kids if the school authorities aren't making them pray? Petty piss-poor excuse for a god. Seems more and more like a spoiled rich kid or a crazy dictator.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on January 09, 2013, 04:13:53 AM
I think in time you will realise that though I might be interpreting everything through Christianity, I also test my conclusions through my imaginary atheist friend......

EVERY atheist here has, however, concluded that there was NO supernatural element in your stories.  You may want to consider whether your "imaginary atheist friend" is really as non-Christian as you might wish, as opposed to merely a justification for your conclusions.

If you enjoyed my last two stories, maybe you would like to read another from the 70s.
http://tinyurl.com/MercuryMontclairBW    Protection on the road, (someone wants me alive!)

Nah.  Unless and until you have the time to discuss the first two stories (which, presumably you chose because they were the "best"), I don't see any reason to read and critique a third - since (at the moment) the signs are that you will not address any point I raise, but just say "I know I'm right - here's another story".

I think you will take away from all this is that, because of the peculiar attention 'some' supernatural being has payed to me, atheism is not one of my options as it might be for you all. 

"I think you will take away from all this is that, because I manage to convince myself there is a supernatural by refusing to debate any of my conclusions outside my own (confirmationally biased) mind, atheism is not one of my options as it might be for you all."

Corrected.  Think I'm wrong?  Then address the questions you've been asked.  No problem if life means that will take you a while.  But unless and until you can do so, your protestations that "its all really true!" means nothing to us.  You are not the first to come here with unsubstantiated claims whose rationale cannot stand up to external scrutiny, and I'm sure you will not be the last.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 3sigma on January 09, 2013, 06:01:41 AM
If schools in predominantly Christian US are getting shot up because of the lack of official Christian prayers, then the schools in non-Christian Japan, China and India should be riddled with bullets on a regular basis. I wonder why parents in Japan aren't afraid of insane armed gunmen invading elementary schools and shooting their kids?

In the make-believe world of Christians like Wayne everything is about them and their “personal relationship” with their god. However, in the real world the prevalence of school shootings and other mass shootings in the US has absolutely nothing to do with their make-believe god and everything to do with the society and gun culture in the US. Unfortunately, it appears that most people in the US are unwilling to accept or even consider that.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Aaron123 on January 09, 2013, 10:56:36 AM
The  free gas being stolen I had to run through that strainer and I rationalised it in that if Jesus can turn water to wine and multiply fishes at a picnic, he can certainly make Sams Club and Shell Oils books come out right.  They were two full tanks of gas, not one dollars worth to clarify.  The one dollar was a marker placed temporarly on my account for the purpose of the lesson for my daughter.  The one dollar charge disappeared the next time we looked.  I apologise for my preachy old typewitten tome from 1989.  It is important to read it in its entirety to understand.  If I were to write it today I wouldn't remove any of my conclusions but I would tighten it up.

I've noticed that you said nothing about my comments on starving people in Africa.

I can only conclude that you care nothing about the suffering of others, and that you're incredibly self-centered.  That'd be one thing if it was just you, but apparently, your god agrees that you should be selfish and self-serving (exactly as though your god is nothing more than a projection of you).  I guess you consider things like charities and soup kitchens to be a complete waste of time.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Jag on January 09, 2013, 11:03:00 AM


The  free gas being stolen I had to run through that strainer and I rationalised it in that if Jesus can turn water to wine and multiply fishes at a picnic, he can certainly make Sams Club and Shell Oils books come out right.

Well, I'll grant you this. You did, indeed, rationalize your theft. "Making the books come out right" in no way changes that fact - you didn't pay a charge that you knew darn well should have been there, and you use that as a tool to preach about the wonders of prophetic christianity, never seeing the hypocrisy of your position.

Quote
If it makes you feel better, you may consider me rather limited on that regard.

Why do you think any of us are looking to "feel better" about YOUR delusion? What I feel is sorry for you.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: nogodsforme on January 09, 2013, 05:03:13 PM
The exact same kind of stories (look at this unexpected thing that happened to me, it must be supernatural, I am so special) come out of every religious tradition. Islam, Hinduism, you name it.

So, why assume that it was the Christian god who made the books come out right? Why not attribute it to Jah or Vishnu or Yemaya? Or even Satan, considering that you were apparently stealing and got away with it.

We atheists also have had strange and wonderful things happen to us-- we have survived car crashes and recovered from illnesses and gotten jobs and won prizes and found our lost keys. We have missed the plane that later crashed, saved the kid from drowning and found the wallet full of money, too. Who was helping us, since we don't believe in or worship any supernatural dieties?

And we have also had our share of bad things happen, just like religious people. We have lost jobs, gotten sick, gotten evicted, lost our true love. But we don't ignore the bad things and thank some diety for the good things, like many religious people do. We try to figure out why things happen and try to help the good things happen more often.

When people believe in gods, demons, spirits and magic, they don't even bother to look at the facts. Why would they, when facts don't really matter? That is why the most religious places where people pray a lot and wait for god to do something have worse social outcomes than the places where people use science and rational thinking to solve their problems.

Which would you want to get if you were suffering from starvation: rehydration and nutrition from a medical person or prayers from a priest? Atheist doctors in Cuba have a better track record of keeping babies alive than Vodun practictioners in Haiti. Non-religious Norway and Japan are nicer places to live than very religious India and Afghanistan. It's a wonder that religion stays around, with such a sucky track record.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 10, 2013, 12:15:52 AM
I’m back from my out of town job and a bit more rested so maybe I can respond to at least a few of your well considered questions.

Dumpsterfire:  From your reply #179 and 190
Thanks for your conceding that you were unnecessarily harsh on me.  That’s the kind of honesty I’d like to return to you.

If you read the entire darkknightpremonition thing I want to thank you.  It was a lot to read and I mean to make it worth your while, or at least make an attempt. 
You think supernatural premonitions are impossible or you wouldn’t be an atheist so any connections between the 23 year old story and Aurora will be dismissed by you out of hand no matter how remarkable.  To concede to any of it would shatter your belief system, and I actually respect that.  I couldn’t maintain your close mindedness but it works for you and I don’t mean to deprive you of it. 

Or should I say, if I do deprive you of it it will be the result of you finding credibility in my reporting of events that cannot be explained in any other way.  I wouldn’t be posting here if I didn’t think I’m on to something and what I’m onto needs scrutiny, so you are offering me as service I might not be able to articulate without help. 

You may dismiss the connections, and I might have tried to dismiss them to keep me from a fool’s errand (which is entirely possible I’ll admit) but when I emerged from my office after joking with the fire inspector to find that my truck sprung a gas leak, God (or whoever) was making sure that I didn’t walk away from my investigation empty handed.  For you it means nothing, but it can’t mean nothing to me because I was there.   It is so crazy that I can’t be insulted by your ridicule, I actually understand the ridicule.  It is so crazy, it just has to be supernatural.
 
The exercise of prayer is an act of faith in the unseen, and by design it excludes and even confounds the rational.  You would have preferred that my old story had an attack to make it more compelling, and you are right, that’s why I went to the trouble to investigate.  A run of the mill gas leak is different from a tear gas canister is different from a fuel pump diaphragm failure.  Every one of them is completely different, but what kind of dullard would I have been if I had dismissed the connections out of hand?  I looked into them, they connect, and where the connections were ambivalent  I was given back up support.  The boobytrap.
2. Removing prayer in schools was a big deal. You may argue all the merits of the tortured litigation and there isn’t room here for all that but why don’t we just concede here that it was Atheists that got it outlawed, not a bunch of sects that fought over minutia.

Madalyn Murray O'Hair got bible reading out of schools the year after prayer was removed.  You should be so proud.  How’d she die? In 1995 she was kidnapped, murdered, and her body mutilated, along with her son Jon Murray and granddaughter Robin Murray O'Hair, by former American Atheist office manager David Roland Waters. 

I wonder if the shooters at Aurora and Sandy Hook were praying bible reading kids or if they were atheist like the office manager?  I’ll have to look that one up. 

Don’t expect me to speak for God’s mysterious ways except that they are mysterious.  The Amish incident you want an answer on is as bad as any of them.  The best I can do here is say what I said when I got one look at the Sandy Hook killer.  I feel as sorry for him, the shooter, as I do for the victims. My assertion that removing God Bible Prayer Ten Commandments from school caused all the current killing is both my premonition’s implications as well as the environment that those killers were brought up in.  If all that bible reading, prayer and Ten commandments wasn’t outlawed and shunned by society, those killers wouldn’t have been killers.  They are as much victims of the outlawing of morality as the slaughtered are. 

And that is what you and Madalyn have done, you’ve outlawed God’s morality.  The founder’s intended that students should be immersed in the bible in public schools, Thomas Jefferson famously declared it and if I’m not mistaken ordered the government to print the bibles with taxpayers money to make sure of it.
Here’s the bottom line.  My premonition means something.  It is a supernatural prophecy designed to have a very long fuse, a twenty three year long fuse.  An omniscient God gave it to me to write about twenty three years ago, and then backed up the conclusion I was drawing from it by boobytrapping my truck.   

A lot of your flaming at me for all this is somewhat understandable because we want explanations that make sense for all the tragedies that befall the innocent, but I can only report what I’ve been given to report and draw the obvious conclusions that can be extracted from them. 

Jag insists on torturing me about my “theft” He said:
Well, I'll grant you this. You did, indeed, rationalize your theft. "Making the books come out right" in no way changes that fact - you didn't pay a charge that you knew darn well should have been there, and you use that as a tool to preach about the wonders of prophetic christianity, never seeing the hypocrisy of your position.

The Bible calls Satan the great accuser.

Jag accuses me of being a thief for having received a blessing and a gift.  He dismisses out of hand the admittedly unbelievable circumstances of not only how I acquired the gas but how it all came to my attention.  If I must defend myself from this slander I guess I must.  For the first tank of gas I filled a nearly empty tank in a Toyota pickup. I have absolutely no idea how much gas. It could have been eight to fifteen gallons.  I don’t even know the size of the tank.  I don’t know what the charge was. I didn’t take a receipt, I never do.  When we first looked at the charge online the station information was there, the time was correct and the charge was  one dollar.  Of course I knew that had to be incorrect, and I didn’t make a habit of checking charges online and maybe the full charge was going to come up later. 

My daughter was going out of her way to honor my request and showing an admirable amount of concern that she pay the full amount and it was really a kick to be able to say to her: “Ok, give me a dollar”  That is hysterically cool! She wasn’t satisfied and asked me a couple of days later, then and only then did I discover that not only did the one dollar disappear but the additional tank in my fifteen gallon mustang tank was also not on the bill. 

Jag.  How much gas did I put in my mustang and what should the charge have been if the needle was just half way between a quarter and empty?  What was the price at the pump?  Do you remember my saying I never take a receipt? I never look at the charge and I wouldn’t remember it if I did.  What exactly would an atheist do in this situation?  What would Jag do?

I’ll tell you what I did.  I accepted it for the wonder it was absolutely guilt free.  Do I think anybody got cheated?  No I don’t.  Did I perpetrate a theft?  You need to think I did don’t you? 

Here is something else.  I never have even since looked to make sure that every charge I have put on that card has been registered correctly, though I amused myself with the imagination for a moment.  Do you know why I never checked subsequent charges?  It is because that incident was so perfectly orchestrated that I just knew the whole affair had run its course.  My daughter and I got the message, and it was a one time thing.

I wish I could answer all your concerns. Like what about the starving in Africa whatever.  I am grateful that you have read my accounts of the supernatural and I appreciate your responses.  If I utterly failed in not running down the lost gas charges in my need to imagine my Christian God rewarding my daughter for cleaning her truck, then I guess I’m a hard case.  God have mercy on me.

Someone, maybe dumpster said that I had put up my best stories first.  Not really, just the most current. 
I know I haven’t answered all but please be patient, I’ll try to keep up
Thanks again for reading.

You are not going to believe this, I have another Gas leak story!  I really do! But I’ll wait until I respond to those that have read my  http://tinyurl.com/MercuryMontclair    Story lest I get even further behind.
I am so grateful for your input, and please forgive me if I failed to answer your concerns.
Wayne
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 12 Monkeys on January 10, 2013, 12:38:57 AM
Why would an all powerful being that can create a universe,kill millions,command his followers to kill millions,kill his own son be afraid of crossing a doorway because someone stopped people from praying in schools so others would not feel uncomfortable?

 Your thinking is flawed,If these people(victims) had Jesus in their hearts,why would God not be present?

 As far as a non believer being murdered by another non believer,it has happened before,will happen again. Andrea Yates told the police that God told her to drown her kids,is she lying,crazy or the scariest of all,telling the truth as she See's it?

 Are the Westboro Baptist's right? is God angry because his followers ignore the Bible? They(a majority of the free world) now allow women to speak in public,work,hold titles over men.Equal rights for people of different ethnic origins,for gays,women. These are ALL things God is angry about,not just removal of prayer

 And finally your Bible tells you to humbly pray in private not to openly pray,so your argument for prayer in schools is null and void.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 10, 2013, 01:46:40 AM
Don’t expect me to speak for God’s mysterious ways except that they are mysterious.  The Amish incident you want an answer on is as bad as any of them.  The best I can do here is say what I said when I got one look at the Sandy Hook killer.  I feel as sorry for him, the shooter, as I do for the victims. My assertion that removing God Bible Prayer Ten Commandments from school caused all the current killing is both my premonition’s implications as well as the environment that those killers were brought up in.  If all that bible reading, prayer and Ten commandments wasn’t outlawed and shunned by society, those killers wouldn’t have been killers.  They are as much victims of the outlawing of morality as the slaughtered are. 

And that is what you and Madalyn have done, you’ve outlawed God’s morality.  The founder’s intended that students should be immersed in the bible in public schools, Thomas Jefferson famously declared it and if I’m not mistaken ordered the government to print the bibles with taxpayers money to make sure of it.

First of all, you can pray all you want in school. But only privately.

Second: Mass killings by crazed people with guns. It can't possibly be caused by the mass closure of mental institutions during the Reagan administration. It can't possibly be caused by changes in mental health regulations that made it incredibly difficult, rather than pretty frickin' easy, to get a disturbed person involuntarily placed in a mental facility. It can't have anything to do with the pressures brought on by higher population density, increased financial inequality, frustration with bureaucracies, unreal expectations of reality brought on by mass media, fewer social or coping skills being taught, the unwillingness of society to deal with bullies and other misfits early, the refusal of gun nuts to negotiate towards any sort of sanity in gun laws, or anything else. Only the halting of open prayer in public schools.

Hmmm. I went to school. Before prayer was halted. I still became an atheist (in 1961 or 62) when I was 10 or 11. So apparently a) prayer being legal didn't affect me too much and b) despite my lack of belief, I have yet to shoot anyone.

Your effort to keep it simple and make all of this a black and white issue is typical of responses that will never fix anything. Not counting your ego, which is in fine shape. The United States is a society which glorifies the rugged individual, the pulling up of ones own boot straps. It glorifies money as the biggest measure of success, with beautiful spouses and McMansions being important too. It sets high expectations and unrealistic demands. It provides a social atmosphere where I am allowed to move into a town where you have a small business, and if I am savvy enough it is perfectly acceptable for me to put you out of business and destroy your financial world as long as I am being a good businessman. It is fine for me to move my megastore into a small town and put every small business in that town into bankruptcy, because my right to succeed transcends all other rights. And this is with or without the bible, with or without prayer in school.

Most of the shooters in these mass shootings (I know, we outlawed prayer in theaters back in 1979 and they haven't been safe since) have been disenfranchised single males with expectations of entitlements but a failed economic and/or social track record. When you create a competitive economic atmosphere, there are going to be loosers. When you create a competitive educational atmosphere, a competitive mate-seeking atmosphere, and create losers as a byproduct of the process, don't expect glitter and roses as the only by-products of failure.

Have you ever thought that life just isn't fair? Even just a little bit. Imagine, if you will, people who feel life isn't fair who can't conjure up alternative scenarios, but who can conjure up a gun. Some of them will use the weapons.

But you think that the mere inclusion of prayer in our schools will fix this. That, because you are incredibly moral and twice as good as anyone else, that the fact that you pray a lot is the deciding factor. And that enforced prayer would alter the fabric of society so fast and so well that the Columbine boys would come back to life and ask for a do-over.

I've been the victim of three crimes. One, a stolen bike. Another when my car was broken into and an empty backpack was stolen out of the back seat. And three, a business partner to stole $5,000 and another $5,000 in computer equipment and disappeared, destroying what we had built. He was an ordained minister, and when I tracked him down, he was the head minister at a medium sized church in Indiana. After he stole from me. He prayed daily, and apparently got his wish. God let him steal from me. So I'm guessing that the mere inclusion of prayer in daily life does not always lead to meticulous behavior.

Just for the record, he graduated from high school in 1960, so he could legally pray in school and he was still a jerk. How do you explain that?

I'm not mad at him any more. Its not worth my time to fret over yet another a**hole in the world. But to me, he is living proof that prayer is not a cure-all. Yet that is what you are claiming.

I could have stolen something was about three years ago. I went to the store and bought a fairly small amount of food. I was talking to a friend behind me in line and not paying any attention to the cashier. I paid and walked out with my groceries, and got thinking about how much it had cost me. It seemed to be too little. I checked my receipt and saw that I had not been charged for a $5.00 item. I pulled it out of the bag, walked back into the store and paid for it. That's how evil this particular non-praying human is. So prayer may not be the only frickin' variable.

I repeat. The world isn't black and white. No one fix is available for mass killings any more than any one fix is available for any of the kinder, sweeter single-victim killings that our society endures.

By the way, you are wrong about Jefferson and the bibles in school thing. That never happened, but christians love to tell the story anyway. Truth not being their biggest concern. You guys pray not to get shot but you don't bother policing your own behavior. I have heard the claim for years. I asked a friend, a history teacher who is a christian (his daughter just graduated from a northwestern bible school last year) if the story was true and he did some research and  that it was not (history being so important to him that it transcended his religion). This was before the Internet, so I had no links for that, but I found this story this evening and it sounds like the one that Chuck told me in about 1990.

http://wthrockmorton.com/2012/09/04/david-bartons-u-s-capitol-tour-did-congress-print-the-first-bible-in-english-for-the-use-of-schools/ (http://wthrockmorton.com/2012/09/04/david-bartons-u-s-capitol-tour-did-congress-print-the-first-bible-in-english-for-the-use-of-schools/)

Which happened, by the way, 19 years before Jefferson even became president.

But don't worry. You have your own permission to tell it any way you want.

P.S. I have to finish this with an observation of mine that I have presented here before. It references something you said in the first paragraph of yours that I quoted. Since you're new, I get to say it again:

It's a good thing that the lord operates in mysterious ways, otherwise there would be no other way to explain what he does.

P.P.S. 12, I loved your last sentence in the above post. But I'm guessing it is not in his personally abridged version.

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on January 10, 2013, 06:21:22 AM
You think supernatural premonitions are impossible or you wouldn’t be an atheist so any connections between the 23 year old story and Aurora will be dismissed by you out of hand no matter how remarkable.  To concede to any of it would shatter your belief system, and I actually respect that.  I couldn’t maintain your close mindedness but it works for you and I don’t mean to deprive you of it. 

Transference? 

You made a big thing that you run things past your "invisible atheist friend" (i.e. you imply you do not have a closed mind).  Yet every REAL atheist says you are wrong.....and you refuse to accept any of our comments.  Do you not feel that that makes you as close-minded in your beliefs as you accuse us of being, for fear it may shatter YOUR belief system?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: wheels5894 on January 10, 2013, 06:56:57 AM
I think the problem here is that there is a lack of clear thinking which results in these stories being seen as premonitions or acts of god. Surely the first thing one would do with these stories is to see if there is actually a rational and normal, everyday explanation for these events.

One thing that is not considered for the cinema story is just plain, old coincidence. As is pointed out earlier in the thread, it would be an odd god indeed that gives a person a 20 year warning of something but still the recipient of the message fails to understand it until the event is over and does so in retrospect. One would expect a god to manage to stop events if it was giving a message 20 years prior to the event. the alternative view, that there are no connections at all between the events, apart from there being a Batman film involved, suggests that it is that connection, together with the presence of police on each occasion, that means the events are joined together. After all, noting a the earlier event predicted what happened at the latter apart from the coincidence of the same film.

As far as the fuel is concerned, why not just look at the way technology works - especially in the hands of people not very good at using it. That $1 was charged rather than the proper price could easily just be a technology fail - there is absolutely no need to bring in an imaginary deity to explain it - indeed, as an explanation, Occam's razor would remove the extra party, god, as extraneous.

the point I am  making is that there are simple everyday explanations to the things in the stories and it is only the work of someone with a strong faith and the need to satisfy it that creates these linkages to a deity. Whether or not there is a deity does not matter in this discussion as it is clear there are normal explanations on hand. We can only, justifiably look to a deity to help explain something when there are not other explanations for an event. Bringing is  a character who exists only in a person's faith really doesn't explain much. 
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: naemhni on January 10, 2013, 09:20:19 AM
You think supernatural premonitions are impossible or you wouldn’t be an atheist

A small correction, here: atheists don't necessarily reject the supernatural altogether, they merely lack belief in deities.  Most atheists are, in fact, naturalists, but there are a few exceptions, so be careful not to make that assumption.

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The exercise of prayer is an act of faith in the unseen, and by design it excludes and even confounds the rational.

Not at all.  If you believe in intercessory prayer -- and it appears that you do -- then it should be a readily testable phenomenon because it has effects in the natural world.  If, for example, prayer increases the likelihood of recovering from illness, we should be able to see that people who receive prayers recover from illness at a higher rate than those who do not.  And, in fact, this idea has been tested.  I'll let you Google the results, if you can't already guess what they are...

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2. Removing prayer in schools was a big deal.

Yes, it was.

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You may argue all the merits of the tortured litigation and there isn’t room here for all that but why don’t we just concede here that it was Atheists that got it outlawed, not a bunch of sects that fought over minutia.

Sure... as the lawyers say, "I'll stip to that."

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Madalyn Murray O'Hair got bible reading out of schools the year after prayer was removed.  You should be so proud.

I am.  Or would be, if I'd had anything to do with it... it happened before I was born, so I'm sort of "proud by proxy", as it were.

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How’d she die? In 1995 she was kidnapped, murdered, and her body mutilated, along with her son Jon Murray and granddaughter Robin Murray O'Hair, by former American Atheist office manager David Roland Waters.

"And this is my point:"

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I wonder if the shooters at Aurora and Sandy Hook were praying bible reading kids or if they were atheist like the office manager?  I’ll have to look that one up.

While you're at it, why don't you check to see whether they were both wearing shoes.  (Are you wearing shoes, too?)

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If all that bible reading, prayer and Ten commandments wasn’t outlawed and shunned by society, those killers wouldn’t have been killers.

That's quite a claim.  Can you support it?  At all?

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And that is what you and Madalyn have done, you’ve outlawed God’s morality.

We most certainly have not.  Atheist activists insist on separation of state and church, but you will almost certainly never find an atheist saying that a religion should be outlawed or that believers should be deprived of their rights.  (Believers depriving atheists of their rights, on the other hand...)

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The Bible calls Satan the great accuser.

What does that even mean?  And what's your point in mentioning this?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: screwtape on January 10, 2013, 09:44:04 AM
Hi Wayne


This response was for another member, but I have some input for you.
You think supernatural premonitions are impossible or you wouldn’t be an atheist...

Not exactly.  To be an atheist is simple to reject a single claim - that gods exist - for lack of evidence.  It is not a categorical rejection of all supernatural entities, though that is usually how it turns out.

so any connections between the 23 year old story and Aurora will be dismissed by you out of hand no matter how remarkable. 

Not for me, at least.  There is a lot going on there, in your extraordinary claim.  For one, the brain is pattern detector.  It often makes connections where none actually exist.  Ever see faces in the clouds?  That is your pattern detecting brain at work. That is why we need things like statistics, multivariate regression analysis, and computers.  Those are tools that help us find actual links and correlations and discard the apparent links that are just our perceptions. 

I think it is safe to say that I can look back over 23 years of my life and find numerous events that could be interpreted as "supernatural premonitions" to any other event.  They brain does that and justifies it, as yours has. 

The key is to ask what is more likely?  Is a universe where you received a premonition 23 years in advance more or less likely than a universe in which two unrelated events coincidentally seem related to you?  I think it is less likely. 

I have not seen any evidence from you that establishes you indeed had a "supernatural premonition".  That is not to say any of the events you describe did not happen.  I am just saying, there are simpler, more likely explanations that do not require introducing the "supernatural"

I have to ask, what good is a 23 year old premonition?  Did it help you navigate life?  Did it lead you to that critical point?  Did you even recognize it as a premonition at the time? 

... and I actually respect that. 

You shouldn't.  If the goal is for us to have the most accurate understanding of reality that we can, then we need to update our beliefs with new, more accurate information.  If we reject data out of hand because it conflicts with our current understanding, then we are not allowing for better understanding.  And what you are saying is, you respect that sort of willful ignorance.  You get an F minus for that.

However, you have not provided data.  You have provided a story and then given an interpretation that looks like you jumped to based on your prior biases.  That sort of thing need not be accepted at face value. That is not closed mindedness.  That is healthy skepticism.

I couldn’t maintain your close mindedness but it works for you and I don’t mean to deprive you of it. 

That kind of insult is not necessary and is not going to win you any friends.


It is so crazy, it just has to be supernatural.

Wayne, we call this an Appeal to Ignorance.  It means, because you cannot explain it, you assign supernatural agents to it.  I find that to be a rather primitive impulse.  Our savage ancestors 100,000 years ago did this.  We need not indulge in this sort of thing today, given all we know.  My cell phone once turned on unexpectedly.  How did that happen?  Was it ghosts?  Demons?  Jesus H Christ?  Or was it some physical quirk in the electronics which I am not knowledgeable enough to explain? 

When you make appeals to ignorance you indulge in a kind of arrogance.  You are saying you are not knowledgeable enough to explain it and no one else is either.  Wayne, you are not the smartest man to have ever lived and smarter people will come after you.  Calling your experience "supernatural" is an end to inquiry and an invitation to ignorance. 

The exercise of prayer is an act of faith in the unseen,

No it's not.  It is an expression of your desires in the hope that the universe will change to suit your wants.

and by design it excludes and even confounds the rational. 

By design?  Why would something be irrational by design?

2. Removing prayer in schools was a big deal. You may argue all the merits of the tortured litigation and there isn’t room here for all that but why don’t we just concede here that it was Atheists that got it outlawed, not a bunch of sects that fought over minutia.

Nope.  about 2/3 of the lawsuits to get prayer out of school were brought by minority religious groups - Jehovah's Witnesses, Jews, Mormons and Catholics.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,18025.msg400179.html#msg400179

Madalyn Murray O'Hair got bible reading out of schools the year after prayer was removed. 

references please?  Murray's suit was formally known as Abington School Dist. Vs Schempp.  Schempp was a Unitarian who did not want hid kids hearing biblical readings without him there to interpret it and discuss it with them.  The school was trying to teach biblical literalism and he didn't want that.  The Supreme Court agreed.

You should be so proud.  How’d she die? In 1995 she was kidnapped, murdered, and her body mutilated, along with her son Jon Murray and granddaughter Robin Murray O'Hair, by former American Atheist office manager David Roland Waters. 

Your point here is what?


Don’t expect me to speak for God’s mysterious ways except that they are mysterious.

In other words, you haven't got a clue. 


And that is what you and Madalyn have done, you’ve outlawed God’s morality. 

Not at all.  Removing official prayer and bible teaching in public schools has allowed religious freedom to thrive.  It means people get to teach their kids what they want, rather than have them taught state sanctioned doctrines. 

The founder’s intended that students should be immersed in the bible in public schools, Thomas Jefferson famously declared it and if I’m not mistaken ordered the government to print the bibles with taxpayers money to make sure of it.

Nope.  Not Jefferson.
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together with James Madison, Jefferson carried on a long and successful campaign against state financial support of churches in Virginia. It is Jefferson who created the phrase "wall of separation between church and state"
...
Following the Revolution, Jefferson played a leading role in the disestablishment of religion in Virginia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_and_religion

He even rejected the supernatural:
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Jefferson cut and pasted pieces of the New Testament together to compose The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth (the "Jefferson Bible"), which excluded any miracles by Jesus

You are not very well informed.

Here’s the bottom line.  My premonition means something.  It is a supernatural prophecy designed to have a very long fuse, a twenty three year long fuse.  An omniscient God gave it to me to write about twenty three years ago, and then backed up the conclusion I was drawing from it by boobytrapping my truck.   

ipse dixit.  You have not really given anyone a good reason to believe your conclusion is the accurate or most likely one.

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Jag on January 10, 2013, 10:29:11 AM
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The Bible calls Satan the great accuser.
What does that even mean?  And what's your point in mentioning this?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that Wayne was trying to imply that I'm either Satan, or acting on Satan's behalf, by "torturing" him over his gas theft. I could be wrong about that, but it seems to make sense, given that he follows that declaration with several paragraphs explaining that he's neither a thief, nor a hypocrite. This indicates to me that his comprehension of the words "hypocrite" and "theft" isn't very clear, as his explanation amounts to a list of excuses for why it's ok to insist that this obvious error is a sign of god's favor. Oh yeah, also that he didn't really steal the gas because he doesn't know how much the charges were.

I'm not even going to touch his definition of "torture", as it's ridiculous.

And Wayne? I'm not a "he", I'm a "she". No big deal - it's the internet, not RL -, but I thought I would correct you before we go any further.

Edited to correct  grammar error
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: wheels5894 on January 10, 2013, 10:38:05 AM
Just for the record the Hebrew 'ha satan', Satan, as used on the beginning of the Book of Job means 'the accuser'. Maybe think of it like the prosecution counsel in a trial.

only the NT writers seems to have linked this character in the divine court, the Lord of Flies 'belezevoul' that Elijah has to deal with to end up with Satan as the devil, alias beelzebub, for a hell that the OT never even thought of.

Those NT writers had a great imagination!
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Jag on January 10, 2013, 01:21:03 PM
^^^That makes a great deal of sense. In light of this explanation, I accept the title, assuming that we are on the right track in figuring out what Wayne was getting at.

Edited to add: should I change my screen name to "Jag the Accuser"? Or maybe, "Jag, sometimes AKA Satan (The Accuser)"? I'd hate to lose my history, but it might be worth it...
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 10, 2013, 01:59:31 PM
Warning - while you were typing 7 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post. 

Looks like my work is cut out for me.

I need a tutorial on how to insert small quotes from you all.  When I highlight a small portion and hit insert I get the whole content.  And it doesn't seem to appear in the preview like it does in yours.

Until then I'll do my best, but I know I'm falling short of replying to you all as I'd like.

What I do appreciate is that some of the merciless comments are from time to time balanced by others with a moderated view.  My comment about Satan being the accuser comes from the reality that some of you want to treat me as though I am somehow guilty of some egregious character fault underlying the remarkable incidences I describe.  You remind me of one of my ex wives.

I was minding my own business one day several months ago when some madman burst into a theater in Colorado with a can of tear gas.  It was a batman movie.  A six year old girl died. I was minding my own business when finding out from my local authorities that there was no threat, just a gas leak in my 'God answers prayers' story from 89. That at first blush dampened down the connection between the two incidences, but minding my own business couldn't save me from what would happen next.  My joke about having been responsible for the 89 gas leak to the fire inspector was immediately followed by a gas leak in my truck. 

I love reading all your well thought out explanations and sarcastic remarks. Especially the sick puppy blazing that goes on that seems to ignore and dismiss how this premonition really works in all its detail.  I'll do my level best not to dismiss any legitimate points you may make but as you look over all the back and forth in all its faults and merits that there may be a message in all this that has nothing to do with me.

I cannot answer all the the confusion that my prophecy lets loose upon the atheist landscape, for I am not the author of any of it.  I am a reporter only.  As a reporter I have admitted my Christian bias, but my Christianity doesn't answer all of my questions about why-this and why-that let alone all of yours.  In that respect, we have something in common.

All I can do is say the first story was about God moving a mountain to answer a prayer.  I typed it with two fingers on a typewriter because it was so remarkable.  I had no Idea just how remarkable it was, until now.  That is twenty three years... remarkable.  I think a few of you would benefit from reading through it in its entirety one more time before commenting because there are certain subtleties built into it that might have escaped you the first time through. 

I don't want you to think that I am dismissing all your scepticism, I actually understand it.  Your kind of critical thinking, (the cohesive of it) is the kind of analysis that commends men, but there is something to this message that over rules all of your scrambling and posturing and defending of the atheist faith.  It isn't me.  It isn't my ability to respond to all of it which I will surely fail to do.

What follows as you can tell is a quote:

(her)Alternatively, let's say that it WAS a warning from god.  That Wayne has indeed been able to identify after the fact that one was a prediction.  As someone up there said, what IS the use of a prediction that nobody can understand until it has happened?  It's no use as a warning, certainly.

(me)I can see a use in it.   It was nothing but a story about an answer to prayer until the Aurora massacre.  Now it is a warning and an explanation of current events. 

You are onto something here.  Can you imagine what I would have looked like if I had known what the real implications of the gas leak were?  I would have been bound to protest Batman movies at the very least.  What I think is fascinating is that instead of my being the kind of prophet that proclaims the future, (which even I would have a hard time believing) am now able to point back and say that it was an omnicient God that knew the future.  That's different.  That's supernatural.  It's not me.

(her)And let's look further: what IS Wayne saying about the original gas attack?  Is he saying that his god deliberately set it up as a warning to his followers of what might happen?  If that's the case, what does that mean?  Does it mean that - without the intervention of his god - the attack would NOT have happened?  Which of course begs the question as to why, if this god can and will intervene, it did NOT intervene to save people in the shooting incident.

(me) I think what it means is fifty years of banning God's influence in schoolchildren has a cumulative long term and (God forbid)  a irreversible effect.  That's the warning.  Somewhere it is written that there is only one way to tell if a prophet is truly a prophet, and that is if what he prophecies comes true.  That is a no brainier. But lucky me, I had no idea what I was writing was prophetic or I would have spent all this time in sackcloth standing on a corner with a sandwich board but instead I get to tell the story and proclaim it while it is being fulfilled. 

To me at the time I thought it was God's sense of humor as the title denotes.  Now it's not that funny.  Not only isn't it funny, it is really quite dire.  It is as dreadful as can be. There is at least one theological scholar among you here that should be able to attest from their knowledge of the bible that this not only could be serious, but rather cataclysmic.  If God did in fact gas that 1989 theater, he did it for the sole reason that I would write what I did about it at the time, not so much to entertain my daughter and I.  I'll forgive myself of being flippant about it then because I couldn't have known what it portended.

(her)And if it was a warning....when did you deduce it was a warning, Wayne?  At what point did you realise "that gas attack at a Batman film means there will be a gun attack at a Batman film!".  In other words, was god's message clear to you - a staunch believer - far enough in advance for you to act upon it?

I'm acting on it in the only manner I know how and with all the fervency I can engender, and have been since Colorado.  It's a burden assigned to me, I have to trust that the same force that got my fingers typing in 89 can fulfill His purpose in me now.  It isn't me.

(her)And if it was.....what did you do, Wayne?  Did you campaign tirelessly against Batman films for those 20+ years?  Did you picket all showings?  Continually demonstrate and issue warnings about the incident?  Because if you DIDN'T do so - and since clearly this warning was one that only YOU understood - are you not in a very real way culpable for the deaths in 2012?  If you KNEW what was going to happen - and did nothing - does some of the blame for the deaths not lie squarely at your door?
[/quote]

(me)There's that old deluder Satan accusing me again. I'll try to do better.  Really I will.

I ascribe to the well documented and hightly censored reality that Thomas Jefferson did in fact declare the necessity of using the bible in schools.  I'll not take the time to reel off a bunch of quotes here, but for the curious I'll refer to a book by William J. Federer called America's God and Country Encyclopedia Of Quotations.  With short introductions Federer simply quotes the men that devised our Republic.
Example:
Thomas Jefferson, while President of the United States, became the first president of the Washington D. C. public school board, which used the Bible and Watt's Hymnal as reading texts in the classroom. Notice why Jefferson felt the Bible to be essential in any successful plan of education:

"I have always said, always will say, that the studious perusal of the sacred volume will make us better citizens".  TJ

http://youtu.be/H3Az0okaHign  If I were the Devil  Paul Harvey
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: wheels5894 on January 10, 2013, 02:04:51 PM
Wayne,

There are tutorials on quoting here (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/board,75.0.html). Have a read through - its not that hard and makes posts easier to follow.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jaimehlers on January 10, 2013, 03:14:28 PM
Like it or not, school-sponsored prayer doesn't really accomplish all that much on its own.  It's simply a way to help indoctrinate a belief, but if a person doesn't have the belief to begin with, they aren't likely to care.  Furthermore, it distracts attention away from what actually causes things like school shootings.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: screwtape on January 10, 2013, 03:45:37 PM
Hi Wayne. 

I think you are a very confused guy.

(me) I think what it means is fifty years of banning God's influence in schoolchildren has a cumulative long term and (God forbid)  a irreversible effect.  That's the warning. 

Typically a warning is something that is given or received before an event of consequence occurs.  If the warning is an event of consequence, well, it's not really a warning is it?  It is just a random event.  If I shot you in the chest with a .38, you would probably wonder why there was no warning.  Or if it was a warning, you would probably lament that it did you no good. 

And if the effects are irreversible, that might also cause us to ask, just how is that a warning?


There is at least one theological scholar among you here that should be able to attest from their knowledge of the bible that this not only could be serious, but rather cataclysmic.

Wayne, it is serious.  But not in the way you think it is.  It is serious because lots of people before you have fancied themselves prophets and it usually turns out poorly for them and for people who come in contact with them. 

For example, about 20 years ago there were a couple knuckle-dragging losers named Ron and Dan Lafferty.  They were fundamentalist Mormons.  They thought they were prophets.  They did not get along well with the wife of their brother Allan.  So you know what they said god told them to do?  Yep.  god told them to kill Allan's wife and his 16 month old daughter.  So they did.  When they were tried for murder they were found to not be mentally ill.  They were just very religious.  Ron got the death penalty.  Dan is still in jail and claims to be the either the second coming of Jesus H or possibly Elijah.

So Wayne, I suggest you get your head screwed on straight and drop the prophet bullshit.  It will get you nowhere, except jail or the loony bin.


"I have always said, always will say, that the studious perusal of the sacred volume will make us better citizens".  TJ

F minus. That is a lie frequently quoted by the religious.  Please punch yourself in the balls for that.
References:
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2007/3/10/111937/740
http://fakehistory.wordpress.com/2009/07/05/questionable-quotes-jefferson-and-the-sacred-volume/


And Paul Harvey may indeed be the devil.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: nogodsforme on January 10, 2013, 04:05:52 PM
Wayne, you have not addressed my post at all.

The places in the world that rely on religious belief (mainly fear) to control people are not as nice, in general, as the places that rely more on rationality and science to solve problems. Where would you rather live and raise a family:

1)prosperous and peaceful Japan or Denmark, surrounded by immoral atheists
2)war-torn Afghanistan or impoverished Haiti, surrounded by devout praying believers in god

In the US, there have been numerous deadly shootings recently in places other than supposedly "godless" public schools. Like the aforementioned movie theaters, shopping malls and even churches. How would forcing people to listen to religious teachings in school reduce mental illness or access to deadly firearms? You have no real evidence of this, only goundless hope.

I was a JW kid, and forced official prayers or religious teachings in school would have been miserable for me. For one thing, we did not believe the kind of Christianity that the school would have taught. Unless you think the school prayers should all be run by Jehovah's Witnesses?

For another thing, school was one of the few places to experience something other than the constant religious influence of my home-- to learn about holidays like Halloween, Christmas and Easter, for example, which we did not celebrate.  As it was, students prayed all the time in school--I prayed every day before eating lunch, for example-- and nobody prevented it or even commented on it. That is still the case. Nearly every US student is religious and can pray all they want. How does this make a school "godless"?

Finally as a black female person, I would much rather live in today's US than in any time before the 1970's. Prayer or no prayer, it is better to be able to live where I want, vote, attend any institution of learning, hold any job I am qualified for, marry the man of my choice. I could even run for president-- although my being an atheist might still be used against me. None of those advances came from waiting for god to change the world.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 10, 2013, 04:32:11 PM
Paul Harvey's the Devil Huh.  Good grief.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Nick on January 10, 2013, 04:43:56 PM
Paul Harvey's the Devil Huh.  Good grief.
No, "Good Day".
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 10, 2013, 06:20:07 PM
Wayne,

We knew you were coming, so we provided this tutorial on how to quote:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,16778.0.html (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,16778.0.html)

Question: This morning I was chopping firewood, and making some kindling. I missed the wood and hit my hand with the ax blade, which was no biggie because I wasn't hitting hard and I was wearing gloves, but it slid my hand down the log and a sliver poked through my gloves and stuck in my finger. I was listening to "Lay Lady, Lay" on my iPod at the time.

So the next time a guy beats his girlfriend to death after sex with a 2x4 (or a hatchet) , and his girlfriend happens to be a surgical assistant who wears gloves at work, am I to take my experience as a premonition? In other words, how to you differentiate very loosely tied events that have nothing to do with premonition with ones that you think do qualify as premonition?

We live in a world where coincidence happens all the time. A world without coincidence would be even creepier, because special forces would be required to prevent it. Where do you draw the line between coincidence (Batman) and normal human activities that occasionally include the same comic book character reference?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: nogodsforme on January 10, 2013, 06:37:18 PM
Paul Harvey's the Devil Huh.  Good grief.

If by the Devil, you mean "the great deceiver", then, maybe yeah.

I used to listen to Paul Harvey back in the 1980's -- how could you not when he was on everyday on a zillion stations? He seemed like a fairly nice man with a distinctive radio voice. But he was also known to, well,  play fast and loose with the truth, esp. in his "the rest of the story" segments. He just made that stuff up or relied on urban legends or assumed that something was true because it fit his conservative POV.

I remember one segment about a boy that did something or other that was courageous, and the tag line was something like , "that boy.....was George Washington." No history book included the story he had told, and I have no idea where he got it, since he never gave any references. But how can you object--George Washington was brave, wasn't he? So what if it didn't really happen....don't you think it could have happened that way?

He also read advertisements as if they were news stories: "A new discovery by scientists that will help women lose weight....." and then at the end he tells you that the " new discovery" is actually product x and the cost is just 29.99 if you act now. What made this so slimy is that I'll bet a lot of listeners shelled out the dough for brand x, thinking it was really a new scientific discovery, because Paul Harvey said it was.

And Paul Harvey would not lie. But he did lie. Knowingly. Every day. To an uncritical, god-believing patriotic American audience that wanted to feel good about the US. Quack merchandisers loved him, because he would endorse any product as long as he "believed in it". And was paid to endorse it.

In other words, he was an entertainer, not a journalist. And like Rush Limbaugh, he would deny that he had any political influence whatsoever. &)

So, he may well have been Satan. But he's dead now.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 11, 2013, 02:08:04 AM
Wayne, you have not addressed my post at all.

The places in the world that rely on religious belief (mainly fear) to control people are not as nice, in general, as the places that rely more on rationality and science to solve problems. Where would you rather live and raise a family:

1)prosperous and peaceful Japan or Denmark, surrounded by immoral atheists
2)war-torn Afghanistan or impoverished Haiti, surrounded by devout praying believers in god



Sorry.  I don't have answers to everything, and I don't proport to.  You have talked yourself out of God because of contradictions you don't understand, and I agree that there are contradictions that can't be understood.

The purpose for my posts here have to do with what validates my belief in God and I attribute the supernatural to God.  My stories are of the supernatural events in my life and the conclusions I draw from those events.  Some on this forum go beyond simply disbelieving the events are supernatural and accuse and slander me of evil deeds and intentions, which does more to invalidate their arguments than it does to call into question my conclusions.

You and I have for the last fifty years lived in a nation that has turned away from its founding principals and the result is atheists have an upper hand whereas Christians used to.  Now we see the effects and at a time so late in the game that the virtues afforded by Christian principles in public life are gone.  You talk admiringly of other cultures that you believe to be better than America is now, and it is possible that you are right.  Did you know or remember what it was like in America prior to 1962 when Atheists took control of schools?  Do you think Atheism has improved crime in America since then?

Would someone please respond to why the mass killers of today are any different than Madelyn Murray O'hare's Office manager? 

And please make your case that believing in God, obeying the Ten Commandments and prayer would not have changed the actions of these killers.  All I hear are crickets.

Wayne,

We knew you were coming, so we provided this tutorial on how to quote:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,16778.0.html (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,16778.0.html)
Thanks I got it and it makes it much better.  With a little practise maybe I'll get it right.

Question: This morning I was chopping firewood, and making some kindling. I missed the wood and hit my hand with the ax blade, which was no biggie because I wasn't hitting hard and I was wearing gloves, but it slid my hand down the log and a sliver poked through my gloves and stuck in my finger. I was listening to "Lay Lady, Lay" on my iPod at the time.
[/quote]
 I can't help you with your dilemma, sorry.   
Not everything is a premonition. 
Did you see this one?  http://tinyurl.com/MercuryMontclair
It's about spiritual protection that I refuse to recognise as personal intuition.  I actually have a bigger premonition story than the Batman one, but I'll lay off the premonitions for a moment and mix it up.

I want to thank those who have actually read the Darkknight premonition from beginning to end because it is evident from your questions.  Its really obvious when someone hasn't.  I especially like it when you correct other posters errors who obviously didn't bother to read it.  I'm getting some attempts at pemonition parodies that are pretty juvenile, but I can't and don't expect everyone to read my whole story, so all this is to be expected.

Don't misunderstand me, I like juvenile as much as anybody else, but if I risk responding to a lame attempt at satire, with the sarcasm it is asking for, and then discover the person is dead serious, then that's not good either.
Cheers.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 11, 2013, 02:54:38 AM
Did you see this one?  http://tinyurl.com/MercuryMontclair

Yep. You do realize that had you kept going 90 mph, you would have been past that point before the cows got out on the road, don't you.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on January 11, 2013, 07:43:15 AM
And Wayne? I'm not a "he", I'm a "she". No big deal - it's the internet, not RL -, but I thought I would correct you before we go any further.

Don't worry about it Jag - Wayne thinks I'm a "she" when I'm really a "he".

Interesting that Wayne is prepared to patronisingly suggest that people read HIS glurges more carefully, while at the same time not being able to pick up a fairly universal symbol at the side of people's posts.....
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on January 11, 2013, 10:07:27 AM
Question: This morning I was chopping firewood, and making some kindling. I missed the wood and hit my hand with the ax blade, which was no biggie because I wasn't hitting hard and I was wearing gloves, but it slid my hand down the log and a sliver poked through my gloves and stuck in my finger. I was listening to "Lay Lady, Lay" on my iPod at the time.
I can't help you with your dilemma, sorry.   
Not everything is a premonition. 

Very true.  That is why Nogods asked the following question in her post, which you decided NOT to address:

So the next time a guy beats his girlfriend to death after sex with a 2x4 (or a hatchet) , and his girlfriend happens to be a surgical assistant who wears gloves at work, am I to take my experience as a premonition? In other words, how do you differentiate very loosely tied events that have nothing to do with premonition with ones that you think do qualify as premonition?

I've bolded the pertinent part of the question.  How DOES one determine if an event is a premonition (or warning) or not?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: wheels5894 on January 11, 2013, 10:41:22 AM
On a careful re-read of the 1989 story of Wayne's - the one in which he thinks his god had and entire cinema complex evacuated to show Wayne how important he was - and, actually, what we have here is a story which concludes with Wayne understanding the gas leak problem as a fulfilment of his prayers about the film - that evil, dreadful Batman film. There is no suggestion that there is any prediction in the story, no suggestion that there is anything to be said past the event itself.

Thus the linking of the old story with the recent news story is entirely the result of a re-evaluation by Wayne. There are only two things in common with the stories, the cinema and the film. Nothing else matches, so what made the first story a premonition was Wayne, 23 years after the event when there was no use for the premonition as the events had unfolded.

Dictionary.com defines premonition as -

Quote
1. an intuition of a future, usually unwelcome, occurrence; foreboding
2. an early warning of a future event; forewarning

The first story does not match either definition of the word as there was no indication of a future event. Thus I claim that without the suggestion of a future event Wayne has noticed a coincidence and not experienced a premonition.

So, in answer to the question posed by Anfauglir, the difference has to be the suggestion in the first event that it is point towards  another, future event  which would ideally be recognisable from the original event details. Anything less is just a coincidence.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: screwtape on January 11, 2013, 11:48:30 AM
Paul Harvey's the Devil Huh.  Good grief.

Wayne, I find it rather dismissive that this is the only part of my post you saw fit to respond to.  It is literally the least important part of my post and had nothing to do with the point of the topic.  Around here, we call that dodging the issue. 

If it will help you get on topic I will retract my statement.  Paul Harvey is not the devil.  He was just a dickish old crank.  Better?  Now please take another look at my post.

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 11, 2013, 12:14:01 PM
^^^ He didn't see that one coming.  ;D
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 11, 2013, 01:31:00 PM
Paul Harvey's the Devil Huh.  Good grief.

Wayne, I find it rather dismissive that this is the only part of my post you saw fit to respond to.  It is literally the least important part of my post and had nothing to do with the point of the topic.  Around here, we call that dodging the issue. 

If it will help you get on topic I will retract my statement.  Paul Harvey is not the devil.  He was just a dickish old crank.  Better?  Now please take another look at my post.

Screwtape.  Can you understand that your hellish nastiness  for the sake of being offensive makes me question everything you have to say?  Yes I'm dismissing your other statements as argumentative for the sake of being contrary, because I can't be sure when you are serious. Why should I waste my time?

Get a few people here to agree with your comments about Paul Harvey, collect them and submit that consensus view to me.  I have a feeling I'm arguing with a troll.

 
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 11, 2013, 01:46:30 PM
On a careful re-read of the 1989 story of Wayne's - the one in which he thinks his god had and entire cinema complex evacuated to show Wayne how important he was - and, actually, what we have here is a story which concludes with Wayne understanding the gas leak problem as a fulfilment of his prayers about the film - that evil, dreadful Batman film. There is no suggestion that there is any prediction in the story, no suggestion that there is anything to be said past the event itself.

Thus the linking of the old story with the recent news story is entirely the result of a re-evaluation by Wayne. There are only two things in common with the stories, the cinema and the film. Nothing else matches, so what made the first story a premonition was Wayne, 23 years after the event when there was no use for the premonition as the events had unfolded.

Dictionary.com defines premonition as -

Quote
1. an intuition of a future, usually unwelcome, occurrence; foreboding
2. an early warning of a future event; forewarning

The first story does not match either definition of the word as there was no indication of a future event. Thus I claim that without the suggestion of a future event Wayne has noticed a coincidence and not experienced a premonition.

So, in answer to the question posed by Anfauglir, the difference has to be the suggestion in the first event that it is point towards  another, future event  which would ideally be recognisable from the original event details. Anything less is just a coincidence.

Thanks for taking the time. Really. I'm not 100% sure premonition is the best term for what it was for the very reason you site.  It certainly wasn't a premonition to me in 89.  I only saw it in retrospect as a premonition.  Let's simplify it without the term premonition.  This is one of a number of things I wrote 20 years ago that meant nothing at the time, but means something now.  I'm not ready to tell the most devistating of them to you because this one needs its attention first.

I understand and apprediate the scrutiny my claim actually deserves.  I don't even mind if I don't persuade any of you that God set this whole thing up. (which he did).  I do appreciate those of you who recognise and admit that we are detectors of patterns, and my purpose isn't to convince that that really is a dog in the cloud, but that God is omnicient and has spoken to me to prove that capacity. 

If you don't mind, could you now comment on the coincidence of the gas leak in my truck after talking to the fire inspector?  It's all part of the package.

My other example is a mindblower. 

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Jag on January 11, 2013, 01:50:56 PM
So let me get this straight. After repeatedly having it pointed out to you that you are completely avoiding actually answering any of the MANY questions asked of you in the replies to your posts, you take the time to post a reply to screwtape, STILL ignore all the questions, and accuse HIM of being a troll?  :o

You even have the audacity claim that replying with sincerity to him would be a waste of your time, while displaying even more of the hypocrisy I called you out on earlier - you have no problem whatsoever wasting time posting non-answers and dodging the questions he's asking you, so you are obviously NOT opposed to wasting time, just to "wasting time" answering questions about your clams.

Can you make the dazzling leap of logic that would tell you that your behavior, as I just explained it to you, is why WE can't take YOU seriously? Step up Wayne - you came here with an agenda, and so far, you are failing spectacularly.

Edited to add: I see that you have posted a reply to Wheels5894 while I was writing this. Hopefully you responded with more substance than we've seen so far.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Jag on January 11, 2013, 01:56:00 PM
my purpose isn't to convince that that really is a dog in the cloud, but that God is omnicient and has spoken to me to prove that capacity. 

No dog in the cloud (which no one claimed, but I get your point, more or less), but a god instead? For practical purposes, what is the difference?

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: screwtape on January 11, 2013, 01:58:38 PM
Screwtape.  Can you understand that your hellish nastiness  for the sake of being offensive makes me question everything you have to say?

No, frankly, I cannot.  Mainly because there has not yet been any "hellish nastiness".  At worst you have suffered some mild snark.  Prophets aren't usually so sensitive.  If you will recall, Elisha summoned two she-bears to murder 42 kids who mocked him for being bald.[1]  That right there was a real prophet. You are no Elisha, I'll tell you what.

If your story is as important as you seem to think it is, then a little, tiny bit of martyrdom is worth it.  I am not going to be the last person you are going to have to overcome in your new career as a prophet.  So you may as well build up your chops now. So quit being such a delicate flower and sack up. 

Yes I'm dismissing your other statements as argumentative for the sake of being contrary, because I can't be sure when you are serious. Why should I waste my time?

That is awfully convenient for you.  To me, and probably most of the rest of the people here, it just looks like you have no answers for me, and this Paul Harvey thing is just an easy excuse for you to puss out of the discussion.

Get a few people here to agree with your comments about Paul Harvey, collect them and submit that consensus view to me.

Paul Harvey isn't the frickin' point, so just let it go.  Here, let me make it easier for you, Wayne.  So you don't even have to go to the trouble of looking up my last posts:

here is the first one: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,23483.msg541524.html#msg541524

here is the next:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,23483.msg541579.html#msg541579

Now, you can either get to it and address the points, or you can continue to make up lame excuses and look like a clown to all and sundry.  Which is it going to be?

 1. 2Kings 2:23-25
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 11, 2013, 02:03:35 PM
^^^The rest of us will wait patiently while you respond to screwtape. But you already knew that, didn't you.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: wheels5894 on January 11, 2013, 02:05:31 PM
....
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: screwtape on January 11, 2013, 02:12:16 PM
Is this you, Wayne?
http://social.ford.com/your-stories/cars/Montclair/my-montclair-was-no-christine/

Or are you the nutzy teabagger guy:
http://ocgopaction.ning.com/profile/WayneHarropson

Both seem to have whacky visions.  Heck, they may even be the same guy.  Are either or both of them you?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Nick on January 11, 2013, 02:25:04 PM
Shit Screwtape, now I suppose all of us here have to start watching out for she-bears.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 11, 2013, 02:41:56 PM
Is this you, Wayne?
http://social.ford.com/your-stories/cars/Montclair/my-montclair-was-no-christine/

Or are you the nutzy teabagger guy:
http://ocgopaction.ning.com/profile/WayneHarropson

Both seem to have whacky visions.  Heck, they may even be the same guy.  Are either or both of them you?

We know the first one is. He already told us that.

But this is the guy that was upset that Paul Harvey was called the devil while he directly compares Obama to Idi Amin. How many double standards can one guy have?

Nonetheless, I do hope that he and miss lilian hooked up.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 11, 2013, 02:49:50 PM
Is this you, Wayne?
http://social.ford.com/your-stories/cars/Montclair/my-montclair-was-no-christine/

Or are you the nutzy teabagger guy:
http://ocgopaction.ning.com/profile/WayneHarropson

Both seem to have whacky visions.  Heck, they may even be the same guy.  Are either or both of them you?

It's all me.  I'm off to that out of town job that wears me out.  I'll check back if I am able.  Don't forget the leaky Gas pump on my truck in the mean time.  And just for fun here's another:   http://tinyurl.com/007Revisited   
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Jag on January 11, 2013, 03:04:14 PM
...Why are you giving us new material, when you haven't yet dealt with what you've already provided?

Have a nice trip Wayne, we'll be here when you get back. Hopefully you'll be willing to participate with some posts that contain genuine responses when you return. You are planning to come back and finish all the conversations you've left hanging, aren't you? Your "if I'm able" comment makes me think you're planning to drop out, while pretending that you're too tired to participate anymore. You wouldn't be setting the stage for that, would you?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Nick on January 11, 2013, 03:19:58 PM
In fairness to Wayne...belief in a God is hard work.  God did not make it easy.  If He had done that we all could believe.  Wayne is lucky he is smart enough to be one of the choosen ones.  It takes much thought, research, and a deep love for the Almighty.  Rest up Wayne.  The world needs you.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Aaron123 on January 11, 2013, 03:29:47 PM
It's all me.  I'm off to that out of town job that wears me out.  I'll check back if I am able.  Don't forget the leaky Gas pump on my truck in the mean time.  And just for fun here's another:   http://tinyurl.com/007Revisited   

*sign*  Your stories keeps getting weaker.  At least the last one had stuff happening.  This one?  It's nothing more than "funny number coincidences".

At this rate, "I saw Jesus in my toast" will be a breath of fresh air.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: nogodsforme on January 11, 2013, 05:46:17 PM
Wayne, you have not addressed my post at all.

The places in the world that rely on religious belief (mainly fear) to control people are not as nice, in general, as the places that rely more on rationality and science to solve problems. Where would you rather live and raise a family:

1)prosperous and peaceful Japan or Denmark, surrounded by immoral atheists
2)war-torn Afghanistan or impoverished Haiti, surrounded by devout praying believers in god
Sorry.  I don't have answers to everything, and I don't proport to.  You have talked yourself out of God because of contradictions you don't understand, and I agree that there are contradictions that can't be understood.

You don't have to have the answers to everything. You just have to explain why you think that belief in supernatural beings would make a country safer, more prosperous or healthier than rational public policy based on science, education, medical care, etc. The examples I gave were of some countries with more religious belief being way worse places to live than some countries with less religious belief. These are clear facts that fly in the face of what you are trying to argue: that bad things happen because people are not religious enough.
The purpose for my posts here have to do with what validates my belief in God and I attribute the supernatural to God.  My stories are of the supernatural events in my life and the conclusions I draw from those events.  Some on this forum go beyond simply disbelieving the events are supernatural and accuse and slander me of evil deeds and intentions, which does more to invalidate their arguments than it does to call into question my conclusions.

I have done nothing of the kind.
You and I have for the last fifty years lived in a nation that has turned away from its founding principals and the result is atheists have an upper hand whereas Christians used to.  Now we see the effects and at a time so late in the game that the virtues afforded by Christian principles in public life are gone.  You talk admiringly of other cultures that you believe to be better than America is now, and it is possible that you are right.  Did you know or remember what it was like in America prior to 1962 when Atheists took control of schools?  Do you think Atheism has improved crime in America since then?

In what country do atheists have the upper hand? Not the US, that is for damn sure. Many of us here do not dare tell our coworkers or family members that we do not believe in god. We could be shunned, rejected, mistreated--  for disbelieving in a supernatural being. Can you imagine being shunned for refusing to accept that Superman was real?

Putting an agressively atheist sticker on a car is a sure-fire invite to vandalism. How many cars with aggressively Christian stickers get scratched up or have the stickers torn off? I see billboards, bus signs and flyers everyday with pro-Christian messages.

Can an openly atheist person be elected to high office? Of course not. Doesn't the president of this country have to end his speeches with "god bless the United States"?   You could not become a school principal or board member in many US communities if you are not a church-goer. A kid who objects to saying "under god" in the Pledge of Allegiance might be bullied out of school. There are religious institutions in every US community that don't pay any taxes! And you think that atheists are running this country?
 
Would someone please respond to why the mass killers of today are any different than Madelyn Murray O'hare's Office manager? 

Does thinking that Superman is not real make you want to kill people? Atheists are not more likely to kill someone, or to steal or to rape or to jaywalk. We are not evil people. We just don't believe in any gods. We think that gods are like imaginary superheroes made up by people. That's it. Otherwise we are just like you.
And please make your case that believing in God, obeying the Ten Commandments and prayer would not have changed the actions of these killers.  All I hear are crickets.
This is my case:
Most people in the US say they are Christians, believe in god, and pray. As for the Ten Commandments, only 2 have any relationship to crime or legal issues at all-- #6 says don't kill and #8 says don't steal.[1]Religious belief in the US is in higher percentages than most any other industrialized country. And violent crime still happens more often in the US than in less religious industrialized places like Western Europe, Canada, Australia or Japan.

I grew up in black communities, where the people are way more religious than average, go to church more, pray more, read the bible more. (Believe me, it can get lonely being a black atheist, where people would rather assume I am a Rasta because of my waist-long dreads.) And the violent crime and incarceration rates among black folks are even higher than average.

I can locate numbers, graphs and reports to back all this up if you really want them. But the facts are clear. Belief in god, praying and so on do not make a society less violent. the correlation between lots of religion and violent crime seems to go the other way, at least statistically.[2]. Sensible gun laws, mental treatment, drug treatment, universal health care, sex education, welfare progams and job training reduce crime more than asking a supernatural being for help.
 1. You have to get all the way to #6 before you are not supposed to kill?
 2. Remember, lynchings of innocent black people-- watched by entire white communities with picnic lunches-- was prevalent back when there was mandated Christian prayer in schools
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: shnozzola on January 11, 2013, 07:00:12 PM
Many of us here do not dare tell our coworkers or family members that we do not believe in god. We could be shunned, rejected, mistreated--  for disbelieving in a supernatural being.

Hello Wayne,  (even with my name, I don't think my nose is THAT big)  :)
        What do you think of nogods note above?   I know I would lose my job if management learned I was an atheist.  How do you feel about that, if you don't mind replying?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 12 Monkeys on January 11, 2013, 07:40:23 PM
 I had a dream in which a pod of killer whales(I am an aboriginal) tried to trick me into becoming one of them, They took me deeper and deeper to meet the chief of the killer whales(I was a whale for all intents and purposes). As I woke up I gasped for breath. The reason I woke up grasping for breath was I was real deep in the water when I decided not to undertake the challenge of becoming a whale and had to swim for the surface,from that day on I have had NO voice

 Doctors did a vocal chord  scrape,still nothing,that was ten years ago,still nothing. I guess the God of the killer whales was angry at me for not wanting to join. He stole my voice,and has not given it back. This "vision" was as real to me as I am sure yours was to you.

 Wayne,is my "vision" as real as yours,or because of my Aboriginal background am I just filling in the gaps from the stories passed down to me? As you are filling in the gaps(with God) from the stories told to you?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 12, 2013, 01:37:20 AM
Hi nogodsforme, 
You questions are all very thoughtful.  I am sorry I haven't addressed them as I should. I do hope you don't take it personally because yours some of the most thoughtful. I really don't have very good answers for you but I appreciate them because they do get me thinking about how complex and bizarre the God and no God issue is.

Truth is, I may be too simple in my perspective to satisfy even myself in answering you.

One of the comments I have often made when telling my stories is that I feel I need to apologize for all the fun I've been having.  My experiences  are, I believe, so unusual that I think I'm being guided, and I haven't met a lot of people that sense that they get anything like the guidance I do.   

I feel kind of flattered to be asked all these deep questions, and inadequate to respond to it all. 

You said;
 "The examples I gave were of some countries with more religious belief being way worse places to live than some countries with less religious belief. These are clear facts that fly in the face of what you are trying to argue: that bad things happen because people are not religious enough. 

I'm largely dubious of religion particularly the farther it departs from the example and the teachings of Jesus Christ and it is embarrassing some of the hypocrisy that parades as Christian.  You and I would likely agree on a lot of this kind of stuff, but the gospel, (good spell) of Jesus Christ where it is practiced in his true spirit.. (it's rare I know) is the ideal our Founders intended  to be the foundation of our free republic.

You said:
You think that belief in supernatural beings would make a country safer. 

My christian understanding dictates that, and my personal experience confirms it.  To clarify,I'm limiting "supernatural beings" to the God of the bible and those entities under his direction and control, (including Satan.)

You said:
In what country do atheists have the upper hand? Not the US, that is for damn sure.

Atheists have clearly gotten their way in removing Christianity from schools.. that is how I define Atheists having an upper hand.

 We think that gods are like imaginary superheroes made up by people. That's it. Otherwise we are just like you. 

Of course you are just like me.  The bible says that God is the rewarder of those that diligently seek him.  I'm a seeker after God and the content of my stories (for me) reinforce that statement.  Those people (just like me) that don't seek after God diminish the chances that they personally will realize rewards.  We are the same otherwise.

You said,
I can locate numbers, graphs and reports to back all this up if you really want them. But the facts are clear. Belief in god, praying and so on do not make a society less violent. the correlation between lots of religion and violent crime seems to go the other way, at least statistically.[2]. Sensible gun laws, mental treatment, drug treatment, universal health care, sex education, welfare programs and job training reduce crime more than asking a supernatural being for help.

There was a direct correlation in the rise of crime teenage pregnancy, divorce, and murder and the expulsion of school prayer, bible reading and the Ten commandments from Schools.  Back when all this was taught, even the unbelieving in God conducted themselves better than they do now.  I think atheists should embrace Christianity even as a fantasy for the practical reason of the well being of society. 

Thanks again for your comments.

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 12, 2013, 02:18:15 AM
...Why are you giving us new material, when you haven't yet dealt with what you've already provided?

That is a good Question Jag.  I guess I just can't resist.  Many of my stories are just fun, and I don't expect the latest one to distract from the current heavy discussion. 


Have a nice trip Wayne, we'll be here when you get back. Hopefully you'll be willing to participate with some posts that contain genuine responses when you return. You are planning to come back and finish all the conversations you've left hanging, aren't you? Your "if I'm able" comment makes me think you're planning to drop out, while pretending that you're too tired to participate anymore. You wouldn't be setting the stage for that, would you?

My desire to fully participate does exceed my current ability to do so efficiently.  That is 90% of the problem and I'm begging you for mercy and patience.

I admire Atheists for their acute intelligence, I'm rather jealous of it actually.  The questions I've been asked here prove that this forum has more than its share of high IQ, and I'm no match for some of you.

Picture yourself as God the creator of all things and among those are the highly intelligent, as well as the not so.  You love all of your creatures, Hi and Low, and now you have a message you want to send.  Those super intelligent creations think they are so smart that they figure out that they don't need advise from you, in fact, they get together and agree to the proposition that you don't even exist. 

Now there is this other guy that is average at best but really believes in you and is careful to make himself available

 for whatever need you have.

If you were God, who would you choose to deliver the message?



Thanks Jag.. I still need to learn how to do the quotes better don't I.
 

 
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 12, 2013, 03:00:48 AM
There was a direct correlation in the rise of crime teenage pregnancy, divorce, and murder and the expulsion of school prayer, bible reading and the Ten commandments from Schools.  Back when all this was taught, even the unbelieving in God conducted themselves better than they do now.  I think atheists should embrace Christianity even as a fantasy for the practical reason of the well being of society. 

Wayne

I know the above quote was from your response to nogods, but the paragraph I quoted is a general enough statement that I hope it is okay if I comment.

You need to be real careful with statistics. Especially when you just generally allude to them. You are assuming a cause-and-effect that may not be provable with numbers the way you think.

For instance, the murder rate in 1963, before prayer was banned in schools, was 4.6 per 100,000 people. In 2011, it was 4.7 per 100,000. Wow, what a huge increase.

On the other hand, motor vehicle deaths (measured differently, in that they are figured as number of deaths per 100 million vehicle miles traveled) have dropped dramatically. In 1963. the death rate per 100 million v.m.t. was 5.39. In 2011, that rate dropped to 1.10. Does that mean I can say that the influx of atheism in this country actually caused traffic deaths to drop while holding murders almost steady? I don't think so. But you can't blame it on the lack of prayer either.

Yes, if you too look at the murder rates, you will see that they were quite a bit higher in the 90's than they are now. But if we're still not praying in school, why would the rate go up and then back down? Could it be that there are other factors? Golly gee. You think?

Divorce rates? Yep, they sure are up. In the religious red states as well as the blue states, though the bluest of the states actually have divorce rates that are fairly close to common rates prior to prayer being removed from schools. And in the red states, they are higher than the national average.

And by the way, though school prayer was legal prior to its banning, not all schools included prayer in their curriculum. I, for instance, was never led in prayer in grade school in the 50's. Yet the pre-prayer-ban moral statistics you find so important applied to the people in my area just as they did elsewhere in the country.

If I had to point to a reason for the decline (in those areas where there definitely is a decline, like rape, robbery, burglary, assault, I would put far more of the blame on the real change that has occurred in this country since the 1960's. What is that? Entertainment. We have gone from being a socially active society, in which entertainment was a pleasant but minor player, to an entertainment based society. People feel that it is their right to have fun. And when that became our priority, many social responsibilities went by the wayside. Toss in some other factors, like the constantly growing inequality in incomes between the rich and the poor, the drug culture (obviously related to the entertainment problem), which is far too complex to be only prayer-induced, and the growing chasm that divides the educated from the uneducated, and you have many ingredients contributing to the admittedly obvious failings of our society.

We have also, since the banning of prayer, brought racial equality far closer to being a reality, reduced cancer death rates, especially in children, gotten lead out of paint and gasoline, started recycling programs, stopped our waterways from catching on fire, increased funding for the education and care of disabled children and adults, started entire new industries that have contributed greatly to economic progress, sent folks into space and shot spacecraft out of the solar system, made jet travel safe and, (I know, this sounds impossible) more or less kept Martha Stewart in check. I, for instance, don't have one frickin' craft project in my whole house. And Boston won a world series. So unless you're a Yankees fan, it hasn't all been bad.

You want to keep it simple and blame one thing for all our woes. It would be very convenient for you were that the case, because it would strengthen your case for this god guy. But even my theory regarding the entertainment industry is nowhere near the only cause for the changes in our society.

You, in constant premonition mode and in agreement with others regarding the effect of the prayer ban in schools, think you have things pretty well figured out. Both stances require that you keep all your theories simple and that you carefully avoid contrary information because you probably have no room for dissenting opinion, let alone dissenting facts. Which is common amongst believers, many of whom are quite willing to ignore scholarship and discovery and the science that shows the actual age of the universe and our planet and of the human species; realities that simply just don't fit the biblical story. There is that which you want to be true, and then there is that which is actually true. And you've made your choice. Which is sad.

The nice thing about being wrong is that one can, if motivated by something other than ego, occasionally figure out the error and adjust. But as long as you continue to think that you've had premonitions and signs and offers of a hot date from someone named lilian, you are probably more inclined to stick with the status quo. And argue with us.

Which is fine. Arguing is entertaining.

By the way, you seemed to quote Jag in your last post just fine. But if you wanted to include further quotes, with your comments between them, and couldn't figure it out, PM me and I'll teach you. Without prejudice. Because that's the kind of guy I am.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: William on January 12, 2013, 04:21:02 AM
If you were God, who would you choose to deliver the message?

If I were God I'd make a personalised bible properly updated and accurately translated for each baby pop out with the placenta (soft paperback of course - but waterproof magic paper.)
For example, mine would have said: "Hi William, I'm your God, I love you and hope to see you in paradise one day.  Please follow my instructions in the personalised English bible Version 2.140870005467099003301 attached."

But no, instead we need to hear about God though a mixed up contradictory bunch of writings distorted by human ideas and bad translations, a bunch of dubious testimonies, strange coincidences, and images on toast  :o 

God is the most pathetic communicator of all time.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on January 12, 2013, 06:20:34 AM
I don't even mind if I don't persuade any of you that God set this whole thing up. (which he did).

Wayne, can you expand on exactly what you mean by this?  I repeat my earlier point, which you now seem to be agreeing with:

.....what IS Wayne saying about the original gas attack?  Is he saying that his god deliberately set it up as a warning to his followers of what might happen?  If that's the case, what does that mean?  Does it mean that - without the intervention of his god - the leak would NOT have happened?  Which of course begs the question as to why, if this god can and will intervene, it did NOT intervene to save people in the shooting incident.

If your god DID "set the whole thing up", then you are admitting that he deliberately intervenes in the world - or, at least, he deliberately intervenes for the special person that is you.  So please, please explain to me Wayne.....

If your god "set this (gas leak) up", why would he not carryout a similar intervention at the later shooting?

If your god did "set this (gas leak) up", what exactly was the reason?  You've now admitted that it is only in hindsight that you spotted the pattern, so what exactly WAS god's message to you? 

And as I've said before, I see no reason why I should spend time reading any more links until you've shown the ability to actually address the points raised about your first couple of glurges. 
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: screwtape on January 12, 2013, 08:27:34 AM
We know the first one is. He already told us that.

Ah, well, in my defense, none of his links have worked on any of my computers.  So all I know is what he has posted here. 

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: screwtape on January 12, 2013, 08:31:39 AM
I still need to learn how to do the quotes better don't I.

there is a test area for you to practice:
whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/board,28.0.html
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Add Homonym on January 12, 2013, 09:10:05 AM
I've delved into Wayne's world, and I still can't see how gassing people in a Batman movie was specific guidance from the Lord, if he had chickened out of going to that movie, anyway. It seems like it was his reward for making the right choice: God gassed them, so he could laugh at them.

I find real life is substantially more nasty than anything in a movie theatre. While Wayne worries about Batman, tribal Muslims are giving young girls clitorectomies, and Indians are burning their wives. The whole Columbine phenomena seems to be propagated by the News, not movies. There has been one spoof movie about it, called Zero Day, but it didn't cause any of it. Pedophiles are out there, looking for your kids. Caused by movies, or God giving some men a lust for children? Was there a movie about priests molesting children, that started the whole fad? I must have missed that one.

Clockwork Orange is a farce. The brainwashing sections are absurd. The movie is violent, I'll grant you, but no worse than what Israeli interrogators do on the average Monday. The most horrific scene I've seen in a movie, is one that depicts the torture and execution of a man, in a way that no doubt has really been done. That's why it was horrific. (The Evil that Men do, if you want to pick it up.) Hollywood is so abstract that none of it lasts in your head for longer than the gum you are chewing. (With the exception of Batman 1992, which has Michelle Pfeiffer in bondage gear. Not for fragile Christian minds.)

I can't imagine living in such fear, that what's in a movie theatre will corrupt you and turn you from God. I was around at fundamentalist's place, and wanted to watch Red Dwarf on her telly. She said OK. I foolishly described the plot, and she then wouldn't let me watch it, because "androids were from Satan".

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Nick on January 12, 2013, 10:41:30 AM
Wayne, God should get off His fat ass and deliver the message Himself.  We are tired of all these gods throughout history being "hide and seek" gods.  Why do you think that is, Wayne?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 12, 2013, 11:14:27 AM
Many of us here do not dare tell our coworkers or family members that we do not believe in god. We could be shunned, rejected, mistreated--  for disbelieving in a supernatural being.

Hello Wayne,  (even with my name, I don't think my nose is THAT big)  :)
        What do you think of nogods note above?   I know I would lose my job if management learned I was an atheist.  How do you feel about that, if you don't mind replying?

It was a well established principal in, and reinforced in the Northwest Ordinance that anyone that would hold office in government, or any new territories petitioning for statehood should swear to a belief in God, and make that belief a part of the states Constitution.
Without a belief in future rewards and punishments, a person could not be trusted, because men are not angels, and the natural tendency to corruption in man was well established. 

In order to have some assurance that a person answers to a higher law than their own, (which would render no meaning to swearing to tell the truth) these ordinances are in place to protect society as much as possible from evil.  We distrust men in their sinful state, particularly highly intelligent men.  The greatest country in the history of the planet has the longest lasting constitution in existence because of these bedrock principles. 

I think you want me to feel sorry for your persecuted plight.  I can't.  Whether you knowledge it or not, you are the beneficiary of a form of government that could never have come into being left to atheist philosophy.  Atheist tantrums (like Madelyn Murray O'Hare's) have managed to ruin everything which is at the center of everything we are talking about here. 

Have you ever experienced the atmosphere of a home ruled by a selfish self centered tyrant that finally manages to get his way? That's where we have been since at least 1962, and now the atheist philosophy has had its dreaded result. So don't ask me to feel sorry for you.  I can treat you with respect without conceding to your misguided demands as the Supreme court has. 

I hope this was helpful.     I'm writing from a computer, not my own, out of town.
We know the first one is. He already told us that.

Ah, well, in my defense, none of his links have worked on any of my computers.  So all I know is what he has posted here. 



Screwtape,

My PDF's are in DropBox (the cloud).  I have friends with macs that cant open pdfs in their browsers so that might be the case for you.  Anyone who has read them knows why I can't just paste them in here.   Feel free to email me and I'll send it as an attachment. wayne@harropson.com

I'm looking forward to your remarks after you have seen it.  For the rest of the curious, here's somewhat of a catch all of links of stories.  tinyurl.com/speedsmustang
Sent from a computer not my own.

I need a web page for this stuff so you can read it all in HDML.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: wheels5894 on January 12, 2013, 11:24:05 AM
Hi Wayne,

1. Care to specify which clause of the Northwest Ordinance require belief in god for those entering public office.

2. The founders of the United States were deists, not Christians, so why this insistence on the need for Christianity when there is not evidence the religion makes a person any more likely or not to do the right thing? 
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 12, 2013, 11:37:15 AM
Hi Wayne,

1. Care to specify which clause of the Northwest Ordinance require belief in god for those entering public office.

2. The founders of the United States were deists, not Christians, so why this insistence on the need for Christianity when there is not evidence the religion makes a person any more likely or not to do the right thing? 
I don't even mind if I don't persuade any of you that God set this whole thing up. (which he did).

Wayne, can you expand on exactly what you mean by this?  I repeat my earlier point, which you now seem to be agreeing with:

.....what IS Wayne saying about the original gas attack?  Is he saying that his god deliberately set it up as a warning to his followers of what might happen?  If that's the case, what does that mean?  Does it mean that - without the intervention of his god - the leak would NOT have happened?  Which of course begs the question as to why, if this god can and will intervene, it did NOT intervene to save people in the shooting incident.

If your god DID "set the whole thing up", then you are admitting that he deliberately intervenes in the world - or, at least, he deliberately intervenes for the special person that is you.  So please, please explain to me Wayne.....

If your god "set this (gas leak) up", why would he not carryout a similar intervention at the later shooting?

If your god did "set this (gas leak) up", what exactly was the reason?  You've now admitted that it is only in hindsight that you spotted the pattern, so what exactly WAS god's message to you? 

And as I've said before, I see no reason why I should spend time reading any more links until you've shown the ability to actually address the points raised about your first couple of glurges.

You ask a very good question.  Here's my theory.  We are having this conversation right now, that is part of his intention.  You are asking why he didn't intervene at Aurora (in kind) and He's hoping you'll get the hint.  The hint is that that there is a long term effect of bad policy, that policy being to concede to Atheist demands and conduct public affairs in a way that thumbs it's nose at God.  He's got all the time in the world to make these points and the 23 year time lag is a way of exemplifying that long term effect.  That's my theory.  His response to my investigation about the Orange gas leak was immediate, (the boobytrap) which proves how present he is, this 23 year delay proves his omniscience.  That's the best I can do with it but since he seems to be letting me in on some exclusives I have to think that I might be approaching the meaning of it all.   Aside for that, He has a mind of His own and doesn't ask for my permission to do thing his way. 

Thanks for that... I'm not getting any work done so I better go.

woops I just pasted in the nortwest ordinence question and don't have time to clarify here and now.  I'll try lateYou'll have to put up with the messy quote system until I get my sea legs.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 12, 2013, 11:42:44 AM
In order to have some assurance that a person answers to a higher law than their own, (which would render no meaning to swearing to tell the truth) these ordinances are in place to protect society as much as possible from evil.  We distrust men in their sinful state, particularly highly intelligent men.  The greatest country in the history of the planet has the longest lasting constitution in existence because of these bedrock principles. 

I have no idea how you get a good Internet connection when you're up on that high horse of yours.

I assume you would support a law requiring all atheists to burn themselves at the stake, because you're far to busy hating everyone who isn't you to take the time to do it yourself. I'm pretty sure the idea was mentioned numerous times by the founding fathers, so there is legal precedence and everything. Let us know. I'll start collecting the wood I'll need. Anything to please you.

And that way you could get out of answering our questions about why you put so much credence in your premonitions, when rational explanations also explain each of your claims. Once we're dead, you're off the hook.

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on January 12, 2013, 01:06:33 PM
If your god DID "set the whole thing up", then you are admitting that he deliberately intervenes in the world - or, at least, he deliberately intervenes for the special person that is you.  So please, please explain to me Wayne.....

If your god "set this (gas leak) up", why would he not carryout a similar intervention at the later shooting?

If your god did "set this (gas leak) up", what exactly was the reason?  You've now admitted that it is only in hindsight that you spotted the pattern, so what exactly WAS god's message to you? 

And as I've said before, I see no reason why I should spend time reading any more links until you've shown the ability to actually address the points raised about your first couple of glurges.

You ask a very good question.  Here's my theory.  We are having this conversation right now, that is part of his intention.  You are asking why he didn't intervene at Aurora (in kind) and He's hoping you'll get the hint.  [/quote]

It took a Christian who prayed to him directly, some 23 years to "get the hint", Wayne.  At this rate, I'll be long dead before any of his hints get through to me.

The hint is that that there is a long term effect of bad policy, that policy being to concede to Atheist demands and conduct public affairs in a way that thumbs it's nose at God. 

Your god - a god that you have agreed intervenes directly in this world - sat by and did noting with the shootingt the later Batman movie.  Sat and did nothing with the more recent school shootings.  Sat and did nothing while priests molested children (and I'd be MOST interested as to how you think THAT relates to atheist governments).  And sits and does nothing daily while children die and are beaten all around the world.

So in truth?  Yes - I WILL thumb my nose at your god, because he sits and drops convoluted hints rather than DO anything.  In my book, that ain't goodness, Wayne - that's exactly the "selfish self centered tyrant" that despise.

And the best - or the worst - bit?  Even YOU have no idea what is going on, what your god is really up to.  "Here's my theory", you said.  Not "this is clearly what it is", or "here is the conclusive proof".  Just hints that take decades to puzzle out, and a peekaboo god that would rather remain mysteriously in the shadows.  Fact is, you have no more clue what this creature - should it exist - is really up to than anyone else.  So you'll excuse me if I don't just throw all myconcepts of goodness out the window and follow the shadows and puzzles that you claim is wothy of my respect and admiration.

Incidentally, how is your "imaginary atheist" holding up now that you've encountered some REAL ones?  Are you still claiming you are open-minded because you are viewing things through your made-up atheist filter?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: shnozzola on January 12, 2013, 01:50:27 PM
Wayne,
   This is the sentence that sticks out to me, although some of your other points I disagree with also.
I think you want me to feel sorry for your persecuted plight.

   That isn't true. While atheists, muslims, witches, jews, etc. may be wrongly persecuted in many areas, and christians, jainists, hindus, buddhists, etc  wrongly persecuted in many others, I think the debate needs to be one where all peoples take a hard look at their beliefs, recognize why they believe what they do, and learn why it is wise practice not to judge the beliefs of others who cause no harm to society - whether it is in the workplace, the laws that society makes, or just the ability to stand in another's shoes.  I am sure you've questioned your own religion over the years, and compared it to the many "truths" that are out there.

   I have no quarrel with your belief in god if it doesn't cause you to view me as evil, or less than you.  As an agnostic atheist, I am not as certain of truth as you seem to be.  I wish extreme islam was also not so certain.  I worry about everyone because of how sure people with opposing views seem to be that they are right, and how little they question their views.

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Nam on January 12, 2013, 02:33:16 PM
2. The founders of the United States were deists, not Christians, so why this insistence on the need for Christianity when there is not evidence the religion makes a person any more likely or not to do the right thing? 

Actually, some were Deists while others were protestant Christians. However, if you look up each and every Deist Founding Father, where it says "religion" (like at wiki) it doesn't say "Deism" but a particular Christian sect they were a member of at one point in their lives.

Wayne,

You throw around the word "theory" as if it is actually a theory. They are not. They are opinions, and not very well grounded opinions. Start using the correct word.

-Nam
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: shnozzola on January 12, 2013, 04:54:20 PM
Wayne,
   Here's another thing - an aside.  You may find this interesting.  You say:

In order to have some assurance that a person answers to a higher law than their own, (which would render no meaning to swearing to tell the truth) these ordinances are in place to protect society as much as possible from evil. 

   I grew up in the church of the brethren.  It is one of the historic peace churches, along with mennonites and quakers.  When a member of the brethren congregation must make a court statement, that person will refuse to take the "I swear to tell the whole truth....." oath.  That person, under US law, is permitted to say," I affirm I am telling the truth...."  which means to members of the brethren church -  why would I NOW have to make an oath to change what I have already been doing, and what we all must always do.  A small matter, perhaps, but one that men of good conscience have made available to men of good conscience.

edit - hmmm, just looked it up.  Apparently, the brethren, mennonite, and quaker churches may well be on their way along the road to hell, since we atheists do the same thing.   :)

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-difference-between-swear-and-affirm-in-an-oath.htm
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jynnan tonnix on January 12, 2013, 05:28:15 PM

It was a well established principal in, and reinforced in the Northwest Ordinance that anyone that would hold office in government, or any new territories petitioning for statehood should swear to a belief in God, and make that belief a part of the states Constitution.
Without a belief in future rewards and punishments, a person could not be trusted, because men are not angels, and the natural tendency to corruption in man was well established. 

In order to have some assurance that a person answers to a higher law than their own, (which would render no meaning to swearing to tell the truth) these ordinances are in place to protect society as much as possible from evil.  We distrust men in their sinful state, particularly highly intelligent men.  The greatest country in the history of the planet has the longest lasting constitution in existence because of these bedrock principles. 

But given that men are not angels, as you say, and given that we are all supposedly prone to giving in to our sinful natures (otherwise there would be no need for a savior), why is it that someone who professes faith should be any more trustworthy than an atheist?

Now, I'm sure that the majority of Christians out there are trustworthy, honorable people, but the thing is that you could say exactly the same thing about your average atheist. And, as in any population, you will find liars, cheaters, swindlers, etc on both sides of the fence.

If it was in someone's nature to lie, wouldn't it make sense that it would be just as easy for them to profess faith, or swear to God that they were telling the truth if they thought they could pull the wool over someone's eyes more easily that way?

Why would someone's simply professing to be a Christian make them automatically more trustworthy than an atheist? At least you can be pretty darn sure that someone professing atheism is at least telling the truth on that count.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 12, 2013, 06:17:51 PM
Wayne,
   Here's another thing - an aside.  You may find this interesting.  You say:

In order to have some assurance that a person answers to a higher law than their own, (which would render no meaning to swearing to tell the truth) these ordinances are in place to protect society as much as possible from evil. 

   I grew up in the church of the brethren.  It is one of the historic peace churches, along with Mennonites and Quakers.  When a member of the brethren congregation must make a court statement, that person will refuse to take the "I swear to tell the whole truth....." oath.  That person, under US law, is permitted to say," I affirm I am telling the truth...."  which means to members of the brethren church -  why would I NOW have to make an oath to change what I have already been doing, and what we all must always do.  A small matter, perhaps, but one that men of good conscience have made available to men of good conscience.

edit - hmmm, just looked it up.  Apparently, the brethren, Mennonite, and Quaker churches may well be on their way along the road to hell, since we atheists do the same thing.   :)

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-difference-between-swear-and-affirm-in-an-oath.htm

Thanks for that.  That is a very good illustration of how varied Christian sects were that inspired the Founders to allow freedom of Christian expression, which they quite innocently called freedom of religion.  Religions other than Christianity were out of the question. They certainly did not intend for Muslims to participate in government, only Christians.  However they did make an exception for Jews and provided them a separate oath having them swear to a belief in the afterlife with it's rewards and punishments.  Apparently some Jews (Sadducees) didn't believe in afterlife and so they could be rejected from serving.  Muslims couldn't be trusted and I will posit one example of why.  It seems that somewhere in Mohammed's teachings Mohammedan's are allowed to lie to infidels.  That's a big No Go.  I need not expound further on that issue.  That's why it was not called religion, but false religion.  It would have been a lot easier for us now had they just said there is no freedom of false religion, and I'm not sure they didn't, but now the whole system is corrupted and committing suicide from equating true and false.

This stuff is not only interesting history, it is critical to stable policy.  America has lost it.  More about that calamity when we get to my Obama is America's Idi Amin Prem..      Uhh..Thing...   I'm having to back away from the word premonition because it has the feel of what I have experienced without having the precise meaning of it.  Some cogent commenter brought it to my attention and I'm glad he/she did.  If anyone has a one word description of what to call my experience please tell me what it is.  Since it has happened a number of time to me, maybe I'll need to coin a term.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 12 Monkeys on January 12, 2013, 06:30:26 PM
 Wayne,how did a perfect being make so many mistakes?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: shnozzola on January 12, 2013, 06:31:46 PM
It would have been a lot easier for us now had they just said there is no freedom of false religion

Oh Wayne. (sigh)  :(
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Azdgari on January 12, 2013, 06:37:34 PM
Hasn't Iran already done that?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: William on January 12, 2013, 06:38:32 PM
If anyone has a one word description of what to call my experience please tell me what it is. 

Apophenia.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Nick on January 12, 2013, 06:39:30 PM
So Wayne...when you have one of these "spells" are you awake, dreaming, day dreaming, asleep, do you hear something or see something or both...do they/he/she/it tell you about things or to do things...are you tired afterwards...have you been on meds lately and maybe off them...for how long have you had these "spells"...do you feel chosen..special..cursed...inquiring minds want to know.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 12, 2013, 06:46:37 PM

It was a well established principal in, and reinforced in the Northwest Ordinance that anyone that would hold office in government, or any new territories petitioning for statehood should swear to a belief in God, and make that belief a part of the states Constitution.
Without a belief in future rewards and punishments, a person could not be trusted, because men are not angels, and the natural tendency to corruption in man was well established. 

In order to have some assurance that a person answers to a higher law than their own, (which would render no meaning to swearing to tell the truth) these ordinances are in place to protect society as much as possible from evil.  We distrust men in their sinful state, particularly highly intelligent men.  The greatest country in the history of the planet has the longest lasting constitution in existence because of these bedrock principles. 
[/quote]

But given that men are not angels, as you say, and given that we are all supposedly prone to giving in to our sinful natures (otherwise there would be no need for a savior), why is it that someone who professes faith should be any more trustworthy than an atheist?

Now, I'm sure that the majority of Christians out there are trustworthy, honorable people, but the thing is that you could say exactly the same thing about your average atheist. And, as in any population, you will find liars, cheaters, swindlers, etc on both sides of the fence.

If it was in someones nature to lie, wouldn't it make sense that it would be just as easy for them to profess faith, or swear to God that they were telling the truth if they thought they could pull the wool over someones eyes more easily that way?

Why would someones simply professing to be a Christian make them automatically more trustworthy than an atheist? At least you can be pretty darn sure that someone professing atheism is at least telling the truth on that count.
[/quote]

All men will be punished for their sins in the after life, For you to serve in government, you have to swear that you believe in God's Judgement.  Atheists that never tell lies can't serve because as honest as they might be in reality (which is a big hypothetical)  in God we trust, in man we don't.  In God's final Judgement we trust, In men's judgement we don't. 

I have to believe you know what I'm talking about here. Swearing on a Bible and all that.  Is that not so academic that I need to illustrate it?

It would have been a lot easier for us now had they just said there is no freedom of false religion

Oh Wayne. (sigh)  :(


Hi Shnozzola.  I suppose you think all religions are true?   We wouldn't want to discriminate now would we. 
Oh Shnozzola. (sigh)  :(



[/quote]
Hasn't Iran already done that?

We get into a troubling area when talking about a false religion outlawing false religion.  The founders knew what they were doing, and as confused as men's means of honoring and worshipping the religion of Christ may have seemed, they knew that the basic tenants of the bible and the Ten commandments were clear enough in all Christian sects to entrust the offices of government to them.  Not so, non Judeo christian (false) religions.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 12, 2013, 06:48:53 PM
So Wayne...when you have one of these "spells" are you awake, dreaming, day dreaming, asleep, do you hear something or see something or both...do they/he/she/it tell you about things or to do things...are you tired afterwards...have you been on meds lately and maybe off them...for how long have you had these "spells"...do you feel chosen..special..cursed...inquiring minds want to know.

Very funny.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Nick on January 12, 2013, 06:51:08 PM
I think it would be safe to say he thinks all religions are false.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Nick on January 12, 2013, 06:53:05 PM
So Wayne...when you have one of these "spells" are you awake, dreaming, day dreaming, asleep, do you hear something or see something or both...do they/he/she/it tell you about things or to do things...are you tired afterwards...have you been on meds lately and maybe off them...for how long have you had these "spells"...do you feel chosen..special..cursed...inquiring minds want to know.

Very funny.
Why???  Isn't that how it works?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 12, 2013, 07:38:40 PM
Wayne,
   This is the sentence that sticks out to me, although some of your other points I disagree with also.
I think you want me to feel sorry for your persecuted plight.

   That isn't true. While atheists, Muslims, witches, Jews, etc. may be wrongly persecuted in many areas, and Christians, jainists, Hindus, Buddhists, etc  wrongly persecuted in many others, I think the debate needs to be one where all peoples take a hard look at their beliefs, recognize why they believe what they do, and learn why it is wise practice not to judge the beliefs of others who cause no harm to society - whether it is in the workplace, the laws that society makes, or just the ability to stand in anther's shoes.  I am sure you've questioned your own religion over the years, and compared it to the many "truths" that are out there.

   I have no quarrel with your belief in god if it doesn't cause you to view me as evil, or less than you.  As an agnostic atheist, I am not as certain of truth as you seem to be.  I wish extreme Islam was also not so certain.  I worry about everyone because of how sure people with opposing views seem to be that they are right, and how little they question their views.


May I rec comend a simple childlike devotion to the life, teachings and Spirit that can be found in Jesus Christ.  He called himself the truth.  Men make it confusing, and I've been disappointed in how Christianity is presented and deployed here and there but as I think it was Billy Graham who said when asked what the most profound truth was that he held to, he said: Jesus Loves Me This I know, For the Bible tells me so.  That's where all true believers start.  That is the only true religion.  That is the religion of the Founding fathers and of the most prosperous nation... until 1962.

You are right to be fearful of the certainty of extreme Islam.  They have their role in the scheme of things just like the Assyrians had their terrorist role.  When Israel was disobedient to God, God had another people prepared as terrorists to punish them.  They couldn't have harmed Israel had He not allowed it.  America lost it's protection on 911 (how appropriate is that number?) and the extreme islamists aren't finished with us yet, they're not finished because regardless of 9/11 we're still on the happy path to gay marriage and basically outlawing God's morality.  Hello!

The founder's insisted on Christianity as a foundation for governace, and God blessed them with his protections in establishing it.  George Washington warned us that we'd lose it all if we turned away from God and what he warned about is coming true.  It's been a good run in many ways, but anything good about America has but one person to thank and that is Jesus Christ, and the devout men that dedicated this land to his worship.

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 12, 2013, 07:53:16 PM
Wayne, we would rather hear the answers to some of our questions than your preaching. We're not the choir, you know. There are a whole lot of deaf ears here if that is all you have to say.

You are ignoring questions that have been asked of you. Asked point blank. Asked repeatedly. You choose to only discuss the relatively safe or to preach or to push your blog links. We are not having a discussion as long as you continue to hide from out curiosity and our inquiries and our criticisms.

You can wear out a soap box pretty quick if all you do is stand on it and shuffle your feet. Come on, jump in with your clothes on and start responding to us when we ask about your claims, when we protest the reliability or functionality or divineness of your claims. If you've really got god behind you, nothing but good can come from it. If there is no god, its about time you found out about it.

Give us a go. Talk to us, not at us. Respond to the controversial, not the little side conversations that are of minimal interest.

Case in point. I asked you earlier why you didn't take into consideration that if had been able to go down the road at 90 mph (because your headlights were working), that you would have been past the point where the cows got in the road before they got there. I live in cattle country. Cows cross the road, but they don't just stand there. They don't graze on center lines and lick off the rubber. They cross the road. They had plenty of time to get there because you were going slower. 

I once was driving down the highway at 55 at night and drove between two big black cows crossing the road without seeing them until it was too late (added for clarification: I just kept driving because I missed them All was well). I was an atheist. Was that god protecting me, or merely one of the possible outcomes in that situation?

Screwtape and others have asked questions as well. We know your opinions now. We know your stance on premonitions. We even know your political positions since we found your blog. And we're curious about lilian. But that can wait.

I repeat. Talk to us. Not at us. Right now you're making a terrible impression on most, if not all, of us. Has anyone trying to convince you ever done so by being oblivious to your ideas, your thoughts, your opinions?

I didn't think so. Come on guy. Make this a conversation.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jynnan tonnix on January 12, 2013, 08:04:59 PM
Wayne, I asked you:
Quote
But given that men are not angels, as you say, and given that we are all supposedly prone to giving in to our sinful natures (otherwise there would be no need for a savior), why is it that someone who professes faith should be any more trustworthy than an atheist?

Now, I'm sure that the majority of Christians out there are trustworthy, honorable people, but the thing is that you could say exactly the same thing about your average atheist. And, as in any population, you will find liars, cheaters, swindlers, etc on both sides of the

If it was in someones nature to lie, wouldn't it make sense that it would be just as easy for them to profess faith, or swear to God that they were telling the truth if they thought they could pull the wool over someones eyes more easily that way?

Why would someones simply professing to be a Christian make them automatically more trustworthy than an atheist? At least you can be pretty darn sure that someone professing atheism is at least telling the truth on that count

You responded:


Quote
All men will be punished for their sins in the after life, For you to serve in government, you have to swear that you believe in God's Judgement.  Atheists that never tell lies can't serve because as honest as they might be in reality (which is a big hypothetical)  in God we trust, in man we don't.  In God's final Judgement we trust, In men's judgement we don't. 

I have to believe you know what I'm talking about here. Swearing on a Bible and all that.  Is that not so academic that I need to illustrate it?


Now, never mind that your quoting was so messed up here that I could barely find your response, I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

What does the afterlife have to do with whether someone is honest in THIS life? There are plenty of Christians who fail to live up to standards. However, doesn't Christian doctrine say they will be forgiven? How is believing in god's judgement a guarantee that someone will live a blameless life? The rest of your sentence here is pretty incoherent.

And, by the way, I had asked a couple of pages back, but received no response...You seem to be so obsessive about living a godly life and not allowing Satan to influence you, etc...The story about the Batman movie and your daughter shows that as a father you were very careful about what she was exposed to, yet despite (or maybe as a response to) all your boundaries, it seems that she spent some time estranged from you and addicted to drugs or alcohol. You also refer to "one of my ex wives", which leads to the assumption that your current wife is at least your third?

How is this life history reflective of all the blessings you should receive as a devout Christian?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Nam on January 12, 2013, 08:11:00 PM
^well, jynnan tonnix, if that were actually true then he wouldn't be speaking to any of us since "we" are darkness, and he is light.[1]

(Makes me laugh just saying it)

-Nam
 1. 2 Corinthians
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Nick on January 12, 2013, 08:11:22 PM
Man, it is really hard to believe that some of us were deluded, like Wayne is now, at one time.  His delusion is very deep.  Do you like how he said Jesus loves us and how strong that is in realizing true belief/religion but he had to work in the gay marriage thing from the old Testiment.  JUst being a good person is not enough.  We always have to put down another group to make us "true" Christians.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 12, 2013, 08:31:56 PM
Question: This morning I was chopping firewood, and making some kindling. I missed the wood and hit my hand with the ax blade, which was no biggie because I wasn't hitting hard and I was wearing gloves, but it slid my hand down the log and a sliver poked through my gloves and stuck in my finger. I was listening to "Lay Lady, Lay" on my iPod at the time.
I can't help you with your dilemma, sorry.   
Not everything is a premonition. 

Very true.  That is why Nogods asked the following question in her post, which you decided NOT to address:

So the next time a guy beats his girlfriend to death after sex with a 2x4 (or a hatchet) , and his girlfriend happens to be a surgical assistant who wears gloves at work, am I to take my experience as a premonition? In other words, how do you differentiate very loosely tied events that have nothing to do with premonition with ones that you think do qualify as premonition?

I've bolded the pertinent part of the question.  How DOES one determine if an event is a premonition (or warning) or not?

I'm doing a bit of clean up now that I'm back at my computer.  I can't answer your question.  I don't understand the glove or the two by four.

I could understand a question that relates directly to how my connections do or don't connect if you want to take the time to ask me that.  But before you take any more time, ask yourself if you remember reading from my story the significance of my leaky gas pump on my truck.  If you don't know what I'm talking about then you don't understand my story any better than I understand the 2x4 and the glove, and we probably don't really have anything to say to each other.  I say this because one of the most prolific of inquiries was from screwtape that late in the discussion admitted that he hadn't even read my story because he couldn't open the link.  That is revealing. No wonder I was like a deer in the headlight to all his questions.   

So, for all of you who want to quiz me about premonitions, if you aren't able to open the PDF, or are unwilling to read it in its entirety, please don't waste your time asking me about premonitions because a funny thing happened, we discovered that what I wrote about doesn't technically qualify as a premonition. It's just the best word I could think of.  For those who have and are still curious, I've got a lot of them.

So if you don't know what the trucks gas pump has to do with anything, that's perfectly fine... move on to another discussion.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Nam on January 12, 2013, 08:35:23 PM
One of the many reasons I left religion: having to be prejudiced against others. And, for some religions it doesn't stop at skin color, sexual orientation, or any of those things.

My family church:

1. People who wear black are evil.
2. Boys or men who part their hair in the middle will turn into homosexuals.[1]
3. Boys or men who grow their hair long will turn into homosexuals.[2]
4. Beards are a big no-no. Moustaches are fine.[3]
5. Supporting women's rights is tantamount to spitting at god.[4]
6. Supporting anything not sanctioned by the church.[5]
7. Those who do not attend church and give money to it are sinful people.
8. Listening to godless music (anything not approved by the church) is devil worshipping.
9. Prevocative dancing is sinful.

There's perhaps more but I don't remember it all. Church is where I learned to sleep with my eyes open.[6]

-Nam
 1. ever see a Jesus painting? Hair always parted in the middle.
 2. Jesus, apparently, had long hair.
 3. Jesus apperently had a beard -- I guess Jesus was a homosexual.
 4. in concern to abortion, or single mothers unless widowed.
 5. the family church
 6. not kidding
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 12, 2013, 08:41:06 PM
So, for all of you who want to quiz me about premonitions, if you aren't able to open the PDF, or are unwilling to read it in its entirety, please don't waste your time asking me about premonitions because a funny thing happened, we discovered that what I wrote about doesn't technically qualify as a premonition. It's just the best word I could think of.  For those who have and are still curious, I've got a lot of them.

Fair enough. But those of us who have been able to open the links, those of us who have read what you wrote, have asked questions, and you have ignored them. You treat your premonitions as a given and seem to want only to repeat them rather than discussing the possibility that other, more rational explanations might exist. If you want only to talk to those who will be impressed, you need to see if there is a site called whyiseverybodyignoringmyastonishinglyaccuratepremonitions.com rather than here. They might be a bit more welcoming of your claims.

We're atheists. We inherently disagree with your religious stance. Toss in the claim of premonitions and we're really on opposite sides of the fence.

If you are wanting us to read your posts here, you might look into saying something. That makes the experience so much more pleasant.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jaimehlers on January 12, 2013, 09:06:50 PM
May I rec comend a simple childlike devotion to the life, teachings and Spirit that can be found in Jesus Christ.  He called himself the truth.  Men make it confusing, and I've been disappointed in how Christianity is presented and deployed here and there but as I think it was Billy Graham who said when asked what the most profound truth was that he held to, he said: Jesus Loves Me This I know, For the Bible tells me so.  That's where all true believers start.  That is the only true religion.  That is the religion of the Founding fathers and of the most prosperous nation... until 1962.
Sorry, but the Bible was written by humans and has been dramatically changed by other humans.  Any divine message in it, if it ever existed, has long since been wiped away.  By humans.  Did you know that during the initial centuries of Christianity, until the Council of Nicea, there were at least four major competing views of Jesus[1]?  Adherents of each believed fervently in their own view and felt the others were hopelessly wrong, to say the least.  The fact that three of them were squelched so thoroughly that modern Christians have never even heard of them is a pretty dead giveaway that Christianity doesn't have some monopoly on Truth.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
You are right to be fearful of the certainty of extreme Islam.  They have their role in the scheme of things just like the Assyrians had their terrorist role.  When Israel was disobedient to God, God had another people prepared as terrorists to punish them.  They couldn't have harmed Israel had He not allowed it.  America lost it's protection on 911 (how appropriate is that number?) and the extreme islamists aren't finished with us yet, they're not finished because regardless of 9/11 we're still on the happy path to gay marriage and basically outlawing God's morality.  Hello!
You're partially right, but the fact of the matter is that anyone who is convinced of their own certitude is extremely dangerous.  Whether it's fundamentalist Muslims who want to destroy America, or fundamentalist Christians who want to destroy any idea of America that doesn't match what they think it should be, or fundamentalist anything else, any of them are going to be problems for everyone else.  Yes, that means you're part of the problem, Wayne, with your own certitude.  I find it to be pretty sad that you would declare that America is being 'punished' by God, and will continue to be punished, because of something like gay marriage.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
The founder's insisted on Christianity as a foundation for governace, and God blessed them with his protections in establishing it.  George Washington warned us that we'd lose it all if we turned away from God and what he warned about is coming true.  It's been a good run in many ways, but anything good about America has but one person to thank and that is Jesus Christ, and the devout men that dedicated this land to his worship.
No, the Founding Fathers did not insist on Christianity or any other religion as a foundation for governance.  Since you have apparently not read the Constitution, you may not be aware that they outlawed religious tests or other such qualifications for holding office.  That means that they forbade things like a state church, like any religion being able to establish dominance over this country, and so on.  If they had intended Christianity to be the foundation of governance, they would not have taken those steps.
 1. Besides the one you actually know, there was the view of Jesus as a human who was never divine in the first place, the view of Jesus as a human who became God's son after the fact, and the view of Jesus as entirely divine and who never was human in the first place.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: gracarruth on January 12, 2013, 09:15:58 PM
The lack of any real submissions by believers in this post is Deafening.  The silence speaks volumes I think.
Very well worded challenge.
   
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 12, 2013, 09:33:02 PM
Case in point. I asked you earlier why you didn't take into consideration that if had been able to go down the road at 90 mph (because your headlights were working), that you would have been past the point where the cows got in the road before they got there. I live in cattle country. Cows cross the road, but they don't just stand there. They don't graze on center lines and lick off the rubber. They cross the road. They had plenty of time to get there because you were going slower. 
Something (god, and angel) told me to stop.  If I hadn't, something would have died.  I think that's interesting, I'm sorry you don't.  But that's Ok.  I guess you had to be there.  Ford liked it.  Anything else?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 12, 2013, 09:37:16 PM
Welcome to the forum, gracarruth.

Sadly, we get very few believers ganging up on us. The number in the billions but their organizational skills are at times wanting. And it appears that they seldom agree with each other enough to forum a viable frontal assault on us. So we are usually stuck arguing with one at a time, who has to simultaneously hold off our arguments and conjure up excuses, which is sort of like patting your head while rubbing your belly at the same time, I guess.

The problem with most believers is that they have voluntarily dumbed down their version of the universe to one that they think a) is absolutely right and b)that explains absolutely everything. Well, maybe not absolutely, but enough to justify damning, or in some cases, killing, others. As thought processes go, the whole thing sucks. It is pretty much proof that we haven't evolved enough yet.

Generally speaking, believers feel that the phrase "I don't know" reflects ignorance, not knowledge. And they think that their view of things, obviously sanctified by the god, explains everything. A good analogy would be to say that they think that a person is supposed to step in dog poop.

So we work to enlighten each one. We succeed about once a year. The rest go by the wayside, rationalizing the end of the conversation with us in a way consistent with their ignorance, taking the time only to label us as the losers and themselves as the winners.

But we have fun anyway. Sometimes it is even exciting. So stick around gracarruth, and enjoy.

By the way, we love it when new members introduce themselves in the Introductions section (Here: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/board,17.0.html (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/board,17.0.html)). It's a fun way to start learning how weird we are. And for us to learn how weird you are  :D

If nothing else, I'd love to know if there is a way to pronounce your name...
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Aaron123 on January 12, 2013, 09:48:58 PM
The founder's insisted on Christianity as a foundation for governace, and God blessed them with his protections in establishing it.  George Washington warned us that we'd lose it all if we turned away from God and what he warned about is coming true.  It's been a good run in many ways, but anything good about America has but one person to thank and that is Jesus Christ, and the devout men that dedicated this land to his worship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

Article 11 of the treaty of tripoli:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen, and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.


Keep in mind, that treaty was made within the lifetime of many, if not all of the founding fathers.  If they wanted to object to the text, they could've done so.  Yet, they didn't (the treaty--with the above text--was ratified unanimously by the senate).


Also, article six, paragraph 3 of the constitution states:

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Religious_Test_Clause)


If the founding fathers wanted to make sure christianty was the "foundation for governace", they most likely would've made sure to put in a religious requirement for office.  Yet, they went out of their way to make sure this didn't happen.


The idea that the constitution was made with christianity in mind doesn't hold water.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 12, 2013, 10:09:31 PM
May I rec comend a simple childlike devotion to the life, teachings and Spirit that can be found in Jesus Christ.  He called himself the truth.  Men make it confusing, and I've been disappointed in how Christianity is presented and deployed here and there but as I think it was Billy Graham who said when asked what the most profound truth was that he held to, he said: Jesus Loves Me This I know, For the Bible tells me so.  That's where all true believers start.  That is the only true religion.  That is the religion of the Founding fathers and of the most prosperous nation... until 1962.
Sorry, but the Bible was written by humans and has been dramatically changed by other humans.  Any divine message in it, if it ever existed, has long since been wiped away.  By humans.  Did you know that during the initial centuries of Christianity, until the Council of Nicea, there were at least four major competing views of Jesus[1]?  Adherents of each believed fervently in their own view and felt the others were hopelessly wrong, to say the least.  The fact that three of them were squelched so thoroughly that modern Christians have never even heard of them is a pretty dead giveaway that Christianity doesn't have some monopoly on Truth.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
You are right to be fearful of the certainty of extreme Islam.  They have their role in the scheme of things just like the Assyrians had their terrorist role.  When Israel was disobedient to God, God had another people prepared as terrorists to punish them.  They couldn't have harmed Israel had He not allowed it.  America lost it's protection on 911 (how appropriate is that number?) and the extreme islamists aren't finished with us yet, they're not finished because regardless of 9/11 we're still on the happy path to gay marriage and basically outlawing God's morality.  Hello!
You're partially right, but the fact of the matter is that anyone who is convinced of their own certitude is extremely dangerous.  Whether it's fundamentalist Muslims who want to destroy America, or fundamentalist Christians who want to destroy any idea of America that doesn't match what they think it should be, or fundamentalist anything else, any of them are going to be problems for everyone else.  Yes, that means you're part of the problem, Wayne, with your own certitude.  I find it to be pretty sad that you would declare that America is being 'punished' by God, and will continue to be punished, because of something like gay marriage.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
The founder's insisted on Christianity as a foundation for governace, and God blessed them with his protections in establishing it.  George Washington warned us that we'd lose it all if we turned away from God and what he warned about is coming true.  It's been a good run in many ways, but anything good about America has but one person to thank and that is Jesus Christ, and the devout men that dedicated this land to his worship.
No, the Founding Fathers did not insist on Christianity or any other religion as a foundation for governance. 
 1. Besides the one you actually know, there was the view of Jesus as a human who was never divine in the first place, the view of Jesus as a human who became God's son after the fact, and the view of Jesus as entirely divine and who never was human in the first place.

Oh yes they did.  Every single State's constitution declares it.  You have only ascribed to the censored version of our founding.  Heres what the Northwest ordinance required:  "Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged."
Let me translate that for you.  It means Bible teaching in Schools. Not any one federally mandated religion (translated sect of Christianity).  When they wrote the Northwest ordinance  "Religion" meant separate sects of Christianity.  They had absolutely no intention of allowing the teaching of false religion or non judeo christian religion in schools, only the true religion of Christ.

If a terratory didn't include the wording above, they were not admitted.  That document was written concurrently with the constitution by the same men who wrote the constitution.  I'll repeat it here for emphasis and translate it for clarity.  "{Christian} Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged."

In those days I'm certain they had detractors, Atheists.  The Atheists were not able to remove these things from official public policy, but they selfishly have succeeded since.  That Sandy Hook killer was the amoral, Atheist result of that self centered god denying result., right in line with Madelyn Murray O'Hare's office manager.

Quoting fixed by moderator (green text indicates a moderator is saying something): Post was otherwise almost unreadable. Please take steps to learn the proper process. Again, PM me for help if you need it.
ParkingPlaces
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 12, 2013, 10:13:06 PM
Case in point. I asked you earlier why you didn't take into consideration that if had been able to go down the road at 90 mph (because your headlights were working), that you would have been past the point where the cows got in the road before they got there. I live in cattle country. Cows cross the road, but they don't just stand there. They don't graze on center lines and lick off the rubber. They cross the road. They had plenty of time to get there because you were going slower. 
Something (god, and angel) told me to stop.  If I hadn't, something would have died.  I think that's interesting, I'm sorry you don't.  But that's Ok.  I guess you had to be there.  Ford liked it.  Anything else?

You apparently don't get it. We want to talk to you about these claims. We want to know WHY you consider them valid. We want to know why you don't think that there are any other possible explanations. We want to know how you connect a gas leak in '89 with a murder spree in 2012. A theatre was involved. Batman was involved. How does that translate to "god must have spoken to me?"

We get lots of christians here, but we seldom get anyone who is so hung up on premonition. Oh, I'm sure we've had the occasional christian who said something like "I was going to drive to Norway, but god told me not to. Then I found out there was an ocean between New Jersey and Norway and my whole family would have drowned. God is great!" But not this "wow god is speaking to me and only me and I should have seen it" stuff.

Back in the '70s, when it was very common, I was hitchhiking from Colorado to Oregon. I was standing at a lonely crossroads in Utah waiting for another ride and I remember thinking "This may not be the wisest way to travel. A guy could get killed doing this." Two days later I read in the paper that a hitchhiker were picked up at that same intersection that same day and murdered. I was an atheist then too, so certainly god didn't have a thing to say to me, but do you suppose I had those thoughts because hitchhiking is inherently unsafe, or because some intuitional voice outside of myself was talking to me?

It was me talking to me. I know that. I don't suspect otherwise. And I hitchhiked for several years after that on a regular basis so it didn't stop me from doing anything anyway.

So in the above reply to me you responded with "you had to be there." That is all you had to offer.

Have you considered the possibility that your communication skills with yourself might not be any better than they are with us?

And I offer again help with your quoting. The post you just wrote is about as bad as it gets. I'll try to fix it but no guarantees.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 12, 2013, 10:19:16 PM
The founder's insisted on Christianity as a foundation for governace, and God blessed them with his protections in establishing it.  George Washington warned us that we'd lose it all if we turned away from God and what he warned about is coming true.  It's been a good run in many ways, but anything good about America has but one person to thank and that is Jesus Christ, and the devout men that dedicated this land to his worship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

Article 11 of the treaty of tripoli:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen, and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.


Keep in mind, that treaty was made within the lifetime of many, if not all of the founding fathers.  If they wanted to object to the text, they could've done so.  Yet, they didn't (the treaty--with the above text--was ratified unanimously by the senate).


Also, article six, paragraph 3 of the constitution states:

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Religious_Test_Clause)


If the founding fathers wanted to make sure christianty was the "foundation for governace", they most likely would've made sure to put in a religious requirement for office.  Yet, they went out of their way to make sure this didn't happen.


The idea that the constitution was made with christianity in mind doesn't hold water.

Aaron  I know a little about the Tripoli thing, but not a lot.  These guys were pretty smart.  They knew that on a international relations basis business needed to be conducted with the islamic world in the most practical way possible, also knwoing the value of Christianity internally.  Very smart.

Do you categorically deny that the Nortwest Ordinance reference to requiring religion (Christianity) of new states Constitutions?  What they did inwardly was not the same policy as they expressed outwardly. They were smart to express neutrality to foreign nations outwardly while enforcing Christianity within.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 12, 2013, 10:23:31 PM
Aaron  I know a little about the Tripoli thing, but not a lot.  These guys were pretty smart.  They knew that on a international relations basis business needed to be conducted with the islamic world in the most practical way possible, also knwoing the value of Christianity internally.  Very smart.

So, what you're saying is, people in government need to be beholding to a higher power so that they can be trusted (as you said in a earlier post) but you're fine with them lying.

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Nick on January 12, 2013, 10:24:47 PM
JUst for the sake of argument lets say you have a point Wayne.  Do you still think that after 200+ years and the diverse cultures we have in America today that we should impose one religion on how our gov works?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 12, 2013, 10:51:09 PM
Case in point. I asked you earlier why you didn't take into consideration that if had been able to go down the road at 90 mph (because your headlights were working), that you would have been past the point where the cows got in the road before they got there. I live in cattle country. Cows cross the road, but they don't just stand there. They don't graze on center lines and lick off the rubber. They cross the road. They had plenty of time to get there because you were going slower. 
Something (god, and angel) told me to stop.  If I hadn't, something would have died.  I think that's interesting, I'm sorry you don't.  But that's OK.  I guess you had to be there.  Ford liked it.  Anything else?

You apparently don't get it. We want to talk to you about these claims. We want to know WHY you consider them valid. We want to know why you don't think that there are any other possible explanations. We want to know how you connect a gas leak in '89 with a murder spree in 2012. A theatre was involved. Batman was involved. How does that translate to "god must have spoken to me?"

We get lots of Christians here, but we seldom get anyone who is so hung up on premonition. Oh, I'm sure we've had the occasional christian who said something like "I was going to drive to Norway, but god told me not to. Then I found out there was an ocean between New Jersey and Norway and my whole family would have drowned. God is great!" But not this "wow god is speaking to me and only me and I should have seen it" stuff.

Back in the '70s, when it was very common, I was hitchhiking from Colorado to Oregon. I was standing at a lonely crossroads in Utah waiting for another ride and I remember thinking "This may not be the wisest way to travel. A guy could get killed doing this." Two days later I read in the paper that a hitchhiker were picked up at that same intersection that same day and murdered. I was an atheist then too, so certainly god didn't have a thing to say to me, but do you suppose I had those thoughts because hitchhiking is inherently unsafe, or because some intuitional voice outside of myself was talking to me?

It was me talking to me. I know that. I don't suspect otherwise. And I hitchhiked for several years after that on a regular basis so it didn't stop me from doing anything anyway.

So in the above reply to me you responded with "you had to be there." That is all you had to offer.

Have you considered the possibility that your communication skills with yourself might not be any better than they are with us?

And I offer again help with your quoting. The post you just wrote is about as bad as it gets. I'll try to fix it but no guarantees.

I will promptly respond to anyone who can pass this simple test.  What did a gas pump in my truck have to do with the story I wrote?

I'm sorry I have to ask this because I was ready to pass off what I thought of as remarkable coincidences as coincidences only and then something happened at the end.  If you don't know what that thing was that happened then all the explanations I tell you will only translate into more insults like that I have trouble communicating to myself.   

I am making a direct connection to what I regarded as a remarkable experience in 1989 and how it parodied in a few points.  It is more than conceivable, if the bible is true, if there is a God and he's like the one in the bible, that what happened to characters in the bible could and indeed should still happen today. If you have no belief, then of course you will find no connection in what I see as providential.  Can we stipulate that? 

OK, now I'm convinced of a connection, and people who haven't read or understood my account assail me here without even knowing the account, not having read it.  I need to be sure you have taken the time to read it all or we're wasting our time don't you agree?

And excuse me but Parking Places is about to issue me a violation because of my poor parking er. quoting.  Thanks for helping Parking. I'll take the time..  soon , really I will.



Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Aaron123 on January 12, 2013, 10:56:52 PM
Aaron  I know a little about the Tripoli thing, but not a lot.  These guys were pretty smart.  They knew that on a international relations basis business needed to be conducted with the islamic world in the most practical way possible, also knwoing the value of Christianity internally.  Very smart.

Earlier, you were talking about how people need to be christains to be trustworthy.  Now you're fine with those same chirstains lying to others.

That's what we call hypocrisy.


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Do you categorically deny that the Nortwest Ordinance reference to requiring religion (Christianity) of new states Constitutions?  What they did inwardly was not the same policy as they expressed outwardly. They were smart to express neutrality to foreign nations outwardly while enforcing Christianity within.

So that we're all clear, this is the part of the text that Wayne (is it ok if I shorten your name?) is refering to:

Art. 3. Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged. The utmost good faith shall always be observed towards the Indians; their lands and property shall never be taken from them without their consent; and, in their property, rights, and liberty, they shall never be invaded or disturbed, unless in just and lawful wars authorized by Congress; but laws founded in justice and humanity, shall from time to time be made for preventing wrongs being done to them, and for preserving peace and friendship with them.


The text does refer to religion being "necessary" to government and happiness.  However, it says nothing about christianity.  I hit ctrl+f, and searched for "Jesus", "christ", and "god".  The results were all the same; no matches found.  The text could very well apply to muslim,  hinduism or buddhism.  You need to explain why we should assume that the text refers to christainty, and only christainty.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 12, 2013, 11:23:58 PM
JUst for the sake of argument lets say you have a point Wayne.  Do you still think that after 200+ years and the diverse cultures we have in America today that we should impose one religion on how our gov works?

Yes.  (and I duplicated this somehow with a double click but clarification followw below)
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 12, 2013, 11:34:38 PM
I will promptly respond to anyone who can pass this simple test.  What did a gas pump in my truck have to do with the story I wrote?

You seem to be saying that because your truck sprung a gas leak right after the gas leak at the theatre. You consider that leak a boobytrap from god, intended to emphasize the lesson and get your attention.

And that this became apparent to you after the Aurora incident, 23 years later.

Am I close?

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And excuse me but Parking Places is about to issue me a violation because of my poor parking er. quoting.  Thanks for helping Parking. I'll take the time..  soon , really I will.

I know. I foresee things too.  ;)

Oh, I just went to post this and saw your response to Nick. Which version of christianity do you propose we endure? Yours? mrhaberling's? Pat Robertson's? Fred Phelp's? The rest of us need to know. Oppression is hard enough when it comes from a known source. Its a bitch when it comes out of nowhere.

And I mention this again since you didn't comment before. Yes, prayer and bibles were legal in schools until the early 60's, but I never saw either one in my school. So if you are thinking that the legality of such things made it also universal, you are mistaken. The only mention of god I ever experienced when such things were legal (and in this case, after) was in the pledge of allegiance, and that had only been added a couple of years earlier via the commie scare of the time. Just thought that you would want to now that being legal and being used are not necessarily the same thing.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 12, 2013, 11:56:52 PM
JUst for the sake of argument lets say you have a point Wayne.  Do you still think that after 200+ years and the diverse cultures we have in America today that we should impose one religion on how our gov works?

Yes I do.

Edited For clarification.

Inscriptions in all the buildings and monuments in and around the capitol are from the bible.  Lot's of them.  Why is that Aaron?  Why are the Ten commandments chiseled into courhouse walls.  Why is scripture chiseled into the washington and Lincoln monuments, why did Lincoln quote the Christian preachers of his day and craft his speeches from passages from the bible?  Why did he proclaim in his second inaugural that God's judgement for slavery was going to  destroy all the wealth piled up from slavery and every drop of blood drawn by the lash would be recompensed with the sword?  He was declaring truths from the god of the bible.  Was that inappropriate Aaron?  What was Washington thinking when he said that the nation would be distroy ed if we lost the smiles of heaven, was he talking about Buddha?

We're in trouble, trouble that has accumulated in time, and America's judgement was only prefaced by 9/11.  Schools need metal detectors because the beast is loose in the sorry subjects of a school system that by government mandate has rejected the God of creation, not Hindu. 9/11 was just the beginning.  You might like to read a book called The Harbinger.  It's written by a Jewish Rabbi christian and proves a biblical pattern is in place for the destruction of America  It was on the NY Times list for quite a while.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 13, 2013, 12:19:03 AM
I will promptly respond to anyone who can pass this simple test.  What did a gas pump in my truck have to do with the story I wrote?

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You seem to be saying that because your truck sprung a gas leak right after the gas leak at the theatre. You consider that leak a boobytrap from god, intended to emphasize the lesson and get your attention.
Am I close?

Pretty close.

Obviously I didn't write the account in a very memorable way.  Close as you are you have swerved around one of the most amazing parts of this intervention of God.  I was talking on the phone with the city fire inspector and joked with him about how I was responsible for the 89 gas leak because of the prayer I had prayed on my daughters behalf.  When I got off the phone, I walked to my truck, and couldn't get it out of the driveway because a gas leak erupted from a gas pump. 


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And that this became apparent to you after the Aurora incident, 23 years later.

I was investigating any additional similarities Aurora had with the 89 incident and God boobytrapped my truck to affirm that it is a valid statement to make that God could and would cause a gas leak to make a point.


Thank you.  You don't know how gratifying it is to be able to expound on a truly remarkable coincidence to someone who has actually read the account.

Quotations repaired again. This is not a ticket, but do please work a bit harder on this. It takes away from your effectiveness. Does that not motivate you?

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Aaron123 on January 13, 2013, 12:31:28 AM
Inscriptions in all the buildings and monuments in and around the capitol are from the bible.  Lot's of them.  Why is that Aaron.  Why are the Ten commandments chiseled into courhouse walls.  Why is scripture chiseled into the washington and lincoln monuments, why did Lincoln quote the Christian preachers of his day and craft his speeches from passages from the bible?  Why did he proclaim in his second innogural that God's judgement for slavery was going to  destroy all the wealth piled up from slavery and every drop of blood drawn by the lash would be recomensed with the sword?  He was declaring truths from the god of the bible.  Was that inappropriate Aaron?  What was Washington thinking when he said that the nation would be distroyed if we lost the smiles of heaven, was he talking about buddah?

Christianity was the predominant religion of those people.  Do you really think I consider it surprising that those sort of things were said or done?

Thus far, your argument has been little more than an angry appeal to authority.  If we're going to talk founding fathers, how about the fact that christainty is nowhere to be found in the constitution?  Or that there's nothing in it that states "The United States, under the blessing of god..."?  For that matter, Thomas Jefferson talked about how the first amendment created "a wall of separation between Church and State".  Really, try to come up with something other than "the founding fathers did this, therefore, they were right".


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We're in trouble, trouble that has accumilated in time, and America's judgement was pnly prefaced by 9/11.  Schools need metal detectors because the beast is loose in the sorry subjects of a school system that by government mandate has regected the God of creation, not Hindu. 9/11 was just the beginning.  You might like to read a book called The Harbinger.  It's written by a Jewish Rabbi christian and proves a biblical pattern is in place for the destriction of Americal  It was on the NY Times list for quite a while.

So we're in trouble because god is not getting the attention he craves.  That's called being petty and selfish.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 13, 2013, 12:39:05 AM
Aaron  I know a little about the Tripoli thing, but not a lot.  These guys were pretty smart.  They knew that on a international relations basis business needed to be conducted with the Islamic world in the most practical way possible, also knowing the value of Christianity internally.  Very smart.

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Earlier, you were talking about how people need to be Christan's to be trustworthy.  Now you're fine with those same chieftains lying to others.

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That's what we call hypocrisy.


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As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen, and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

You are quick to slander as liars men who very artfully and statesmanly are holding out a olive leaf to assure Musselmen that America is not a crazed religious state plundering the world in the name of Christendom.  And is in so doing becoming an example of respectful tolerance and neighborliness to the world.  What they are saying here isn't a lie, it is an operating policy.  You wish it to be in bad faith in your need to slander Christians, but I think if you take the time to read its lawerly prose it does what it has to do to insure peace.  I think it was a really good Idea and I would have signed it myself.

Now, buy some bibles for those schools post haste.
Wayne
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Aaron123 on January 13, 2013, 12:54:02 AM
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You are quick to slander as liars men who very artfully and statesmanly are holding out a olive leaf to assure Musselmen that America is not a crazed religious state plundering the world in the name of Christendom.  And is in so doing becoming an example of respectful tolerance and neighborliness to the world.  What they are saying here isn't a lie, it is an operating policy.  You wish it to be in bad faith in your need to slander Christians, but I think if you take the time to read its lawerly prose it does what it has to do to insure peace.  I think it was a really good Idea and I would have signed it myself.

You're the one suggusting that the people who wrote it were lying.

The text states very plainly that the USA is not based upon christainity.  To suggust otherwise means that they were being deceptive when they wrote it.  That's not a good foundation for "neighborliness" to the world.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 13, 2013, 01:04:22 AM
 
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For that matter, Thomas Jefferson talked about how the first amendment created "a wall of separation between Church and State". 


That is a famously an egregiously misused and misunderstood quote.  For an Atheist its OJs glove that didn't fit because the defense council forbad him his arthritis medication.  Atheists who use this quote, the honest of them know it's a ploy to get their way from a circumstance that has nothing to do with banning religion from influencing government.  The point was that the US Government would never establish one denomination of Christianity to dominate all other sects.  Like OJ's glove, it helps you get away with murder and like OJ's corrupt defense council, you should all burn in hell for it.

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So we're in trouble because god is not getting the attention he craves.  That's called being petty and selfish.
If a father tells a child not to stick his hand in the fire or he'll get burned, does the fire only burn the child because the father is being petty, and craves attention?  I don't think God is craving attention, he just knows, and has set in his governing principals the harsh reality that disobeying his commandments have consequences.  Institutionalizing gay marriage is a government's way of sticking its hand in the fire.  When a person sins and dies without repentance he will pay the price in the afterlife, but since governments don't have an afterlife they must suffer the consequences in this life.  9/11, ouch, that burns.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Aaron123 on January 13, 2013, 01:12:11 AM
If a father tells a child not to stick his hand in the fire or he'll get burned, does the fire only burn the child because the father is being petty, and craves attention?

A father can demostrate very plainly why sticking your hand into a fire is a bad thing, and he can directly talk to that child.  Your god does neither.

More importantly, a father (presumably), does not demand that their child worship them or threaten to burn them for all eternalty if they do not obey.


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I don't think God is craving attention, he just knows, and has set in his governing principals the harsh reality that disobeying his commandments have consequences.  Institutionalizing gay marriage is a governments way of sticking its hand in the fire.

Oh please.  People of the same sex getting married?  That's a perfect example of your god being petty.  Instead of being concerned over starving people in Africa (or any other parts of the world), he chose to stick his nose in what two people do in bed.


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When a person sins and dies without repentance he will pay the price in the afterlife, but since governments don't have an afterlife they must suffer the consequences in this life.

Claim asserted without evidence.


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9/11, ouch, that burns.

So god caused (or allowed) 9/11 to happen, and we're suppose to worship him for this?  Whatever.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 13, 2013, 01:27:18 AM
I will promptly respond to anyone who can pass this simple test.  What did a gas pump in my truck have to do with the story I wrote?

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You seem to be saying that because your truck sprung a gas leak right after the gas leak at the theatre. You consider that leak a boobytrap from god, intended to emphasize the lesson and get your attention.
Am I close?

Pretty close.

Obviously I didn't write the account in a very memorable way.  Close as you are you have swerved around one of the most amazing parts of this intervention of God.  I was talking on the phone with the city fire inspector and joked with him about how I was responsible for the 89 gas leak because of the prayer I had prayed on my daughters behalf.  When I got off the phone, I walked to my truck, and couldn't get it out of the driveway because a gas leak erupted from a gas pump. 

I don't suppose you are able to appreciate that this would not be a coincidence in England had it occurred there. Because they call gasoline (which is not a gas) petrol. Gas leak, petrol leak. Not the same thing. Thank the big guy the next time you talk.

I don't suppose you are willing to consider the possibility that you hang around near too many inept mechanics. I don't suppose that you are willing to consider that you missed a couple of his messages because you didn't' consider your flat tires (where air, made up of gases, escaped) to be a message. How about passing gas, radon gas in your basement, the outgassing of paint in your living room, the fact that they use gas to deliver the film to the studios, the batmobile uses gas, welders used gas when building the steel structure under the bricks at Aurora.

Gas is everywhere. Why would an omnipotent being only give you a couple of messages? And what the heck does gas have to do with guns. Oh, the rapidly expanding gas given off by the accelerated decomposition of gunpowder. I get it.

I went to three schools as a kid, a tech school and two colleges as an adult. Then Columbine got shot up. Was that a message from god that I missed because I was an atheist? I've been to the top of several skyscrapers, and while on the observation deck of several I saw airplanes flying over. Was that a warning about 911. And you commented on the irony of the 911 date. Phone engineers needed a three digit number that wasn't part of any existing phone numbers, and the calendar only has 12 months. Two numbers from that limited number show up at the same time. A guy who was in a 007 movie is on a flight with you and your phone comes up, an your phone number ends with 0070, and you are astonished.

This is all a case of not understanding statistical probabilities and the absolute inevitability of such similarities occurring. There are only ten possible numbers. An author chose one combination, your phone provider chose another, and they happened to match under a specific set of circumstances, and instead of being simply bemused, you think that it is a god talking to you. Hey, England was bombed by terrorists on July 7, 2005. Lets see. James Bond was a british spy. O7/07. Not quite the same, but that must have been what god was talking about and you missed it.

There are not an infinite number of single digit numbers. There are not an infinite number of fiction characters. There are not an infinite number of possible human interactions. There are not an infinite number of ways to heat a theatre or power a vehicle. There are not an infinite number of ways for cows to cross the road and nor an infinite number of ways for your headlights to fail (by the way, you don't have much luck with vehicles. Maybe that's god telling you not to drive).

You are reading too much into everything that it important for you to read too much into, and ignoring any and everything that does not fit with your assumptions. You are simplifying the social and political problems in our country, in that you are proclaiming that if we still had prayer in schools, by golly we would all be living just like they did in that documentary called "Leave it to Beaver". You want all to be simple because then your solutions can be simple. And you fail to understand that simple answers don't exist because simple problems don't either.

I grew up in the 50's. Pray and the bible were legal in schools.Was the mere fact that those things were legal enough to keep our country running straight and true? Lets see, in the 50's my neighbor murdered his mother-in-law by shooting her with a shotgun through a hole he cut in the ceiling (he got 7 years). A guy my mom worked with was arrested for exposure, a classmates brother was run over and killed by a drunk, another neighbors grandson was killed when a tree fell on the truck he was riding in, another neighbor died of tetanus, and somebody drowned a puppy in the pond across the street from my house. And I got stung by a bee, just like I did last year. It doesn't sound like America was incredibly different back then. You just think that it was, and you credit all the problems that have occurred since '62 to two legal changes.

Back in the  30's the St. Valentines massacre, where mobsters shot some other mobsters, took place in a theatre. I assume there were times when some mobsters killed other mobsters with a baseball bat. Theatre. Bats. Man. Looks like your parents missed the signs too, and we were still able to pray.Your god has been trying to tell us for a long time, I guess. He saw it coming.

It takes a lot of hubris for you to try to drag the rest of us down with your ideas of what is true and what is important. I am not for one minute suggesting that there are not problems in this world that need our attention. But for them to be fixed we need people with vision, not people wearing blinders who hawk silliness as undeniable truth.

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And that this became apparent to you after the Aurora incident, 23 years later.

I was investigating any additional similarities Aurora had with the 89 incident and God boobytrapped my truck to affirm that it is a valid statement to make that God could and would cause a gas leak to make a point.

Thank you.  You don't know how gratifying it is to be able to expound on a truly remarkable coincidence to someone who has actually read the account.

I remember reading a story in Readers Digest in the early 60's. It seems that a high school kid walked into a military surplus store with a buddy and the first thing he noticed is that there was a big pile of packed parachutes for sale. "Cool", he thought. His father had been a paratrooper, and hence he was very interested to see the kind of equipment his father had used during the war. He walked up to the pile of parachutes, picked the first one up, looked first at the front of it and then turned it around. There, written in ink, was his fathers name. It was his dad's parachute. This, if Readers Digest is to be trusted, is a true story.

We haven't had anybody shoot up a jump school or blow up a mall wearing puffy white nylon pants. It was just a coincidence. And that is what you experienced. However, for whatever reason, you have decided to attach significance to the story, so much so that you feel the need to occasionally take flak from others over the incidents. You seem unable to understand that a movie franchise that has made almost 4 billion dollars over the last quarter century is more likely to be involved in multiple incidents than, say, Groundhog Day, which was in and out of the theaters in just a few months. You want to attach importance to gas, as in gas, being similar enough to gas, as in petrol, to be the same thing to you. There aren't that many ages kids can be, but six seems like a magic number to you.

Its bad enough that we don't agree on religion or politics ( I read some of your blog as well). But we may as well be speaking two totally different languages if you are going to insist that obtuse events in your life in 1989 actually able to portend events in 2012. And that the connection is perfectly clear to you. If only in hindsight.

You did not go to the authorities in 1990 and warn them about an impending slaughter. And if you had, even the most ardent and christian cops among them would have laughed you out of the building.

To me, the discussion you are having with others about history are fairly unimportant, because as long as you are going to take the stance that your god was speaking to you via leaks and headlights, I have a heck of a time giving you credibility in any other area. Sorry, but I just can't do it.

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: DumpsterFire on January 13, 2013, 02:01:38 AM
Wayne, it seems that no amount of rational, intelligent reasoning will sway you from your conviction that your experiences are anything but supernatural. You refuse to even acknowledge that coincidences, even some that are incredibly unlikely (of which none of yours are), do happen.

Every time a Powerball jackpot is won, it is essentially a 1 in 175,000,000 coincidence, yet it happens every few weeks. People of all walks of life have won the lottery, even atheists.

Let's examine your Batman story another way:

1. A gas leak causes your local theater to close, thereby preventing your daughter from seeing the '89 Batman filma.
2. 23 years later, in a different theater, a different Batman film is interrupted by a madman who releases tear gas and shoots up the place, killing 12 peopleb.
3. After talking to your city fire inspector about the '89 gas leak, the fuel pump in your truck malfunctions and leaks fuelc.

a: Gas leaks are not uncommon in structures that utilize natural gas.
b: A madman shooting up a theater is an extremely uncommon occurrence.
c: Fuel leaks in vehicles that have internal combustion engines are very common.

Two of the three incidents in your story are fairly commonplace, while one is not. The only incidents that affected you personally were the two common ones. It is you and you alone who connects the two common occurrences with the uncommon one.

You continue to blame atheists for the Aurora and Newtown shootings, but your (and others like you) attitude toward guns is a far greater contributor to these massacres than is my (and others like me) attitude towards god. There are not a lot of things of which I am certain, but one of them is that more guns is definitely not the solution.

You have said several times that the one true gospel should be taught throughout the land, especially in schools, but Wayne, you are a Mormon! You must be aware that the vast majority of Christians view your religion as little more than a cult. There is no way most Christians would agree that the Mormon faith should be taught in schools. So what one true gospel are you talking about?

You are certain that god is unhappy about the '62 ruling that banished school-sanctioned prayer, which is why he allows (or even causes) children to be blown away in schools and theaters today. How petty is this deity, and why would you worship such a monster? Why can't godly folks just indoctrinate their own children in whatever manner they deem fit in their own homes? Oh wait, that's already happening, but you just need a convenient scapegoat to explain the bad stuff, don't you?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jaimehlers on January 13, 2013, 02:24:01 AM
Oh yes they did.  Every single State's constitution declares it.  You have only ascribed to the censored version of our founding.  Heres what the Northwest ordinance required:  "Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged."
What the state constitutions say is totally irrelevant to the governance of the country and to what the Founding Fathers wanted, or didn't want, the country to be.  The fact of the matter is that if you want to see the opinions of the framers, you have to read the Constitution of the United States of America - not point at a state's constitution.  Furthermore, the Northwest Ordinance was primarily concerned with making sure that the existing states didn't try to land-grab in the western territories - not about the spread of religion.  It's true that they felt religion was important, but they felt it was far more important to make sure that anyone could worship as they chose.  Incidentally, the First Amendment trumps something like the Northwest Ordinance.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
Let me translate that for you.  It means Bible teaching in Schools. Not any one federally mandated religion (translated sect of Christianity).  When they wrote the Northwest ordinance  "Religion" meant separate sects of Christianity.  They had absolutely no intention of allowing the teaching of false religion or non judeo christian religion in schools, only the true religion of Christ.
No, it does not.  This statement of yours is either blatantly ignorant or willingly deceitful and deceptive.  It just means that they felt those things should be encouraged and therefore that schools and the like should also be encouraged.  It does not mandate any religion in particular, Christian or otherwise.  It simply talks about religion in general.  For you to claim that they really only meant the religion you believe in is nothing more than a reflection of your own bias in this matter.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
If a terratory didn't include the wording above, they were not admitted.  That document was written concurrently with the constitution by the same men who wrote the constitution.  I'll repeat it here for emphasis and translate it for clarity.  "{Christian} Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged."
Funny how it doesn't actually say that a prospective state had to include that wording in order to be admitted.  Since it doesn't say this in the Northwest Ordinance, you need to cite a reputable document which does say so.  Oh, and I do not accept your "translation" (meaning edit), because you have shown no actual basis in fact to support them.  Indeed, it's pretty clear that the actual facts of the matter negate your interpretation of things here.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
In those days I'm certain they had detractors, Atheists.  The Atheists were not able to remove these things from official public policy, but they selfishly have succeeded since.  That Sandy Hook killer was the amoral, Atheist result of that self centered god denying result., right in line with Madelyn Murray O'Hare's office manager.
It's pretty ironic, you claiming that atheists are selfish, given your attempts to blame all of America's problems on the lack of things you believe in.  While I have little doubt that there are selfish atheists out there, it's pretty ridiculous for you to claim that atheists as a whole are selfish, while you claim that all our problems would be solved if we'd just accept that this was always intended to be a Christian country.  Pot, meet kettle.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jaimehlers on January 13, 2013, 02:40:12 AM
Aaron  I know a little about the Tripoli thing, but not a lot.  These guys were pretty smart.  They knew that on a international relations basis business needed to be conducted with the islamic world in the most practical way possible, also knwoing the value of Christianity internally.  Very smart.
You claim here that, knowing well and good that the government was actually based on Christianity, Congress would say the government wasn't in an official treaty with another nation (meaning, in essence, they lied or were at least deceptive in said treaty).  It seems much more likely that they meant exactly what they said - that the government of the United States was not actually founded on Christianity, and therefore countries which were not Christian had nothing to fear from them.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
Do you categorically deny that the Nortwest Ordinance reference to requiring religion (Christianity) of new states Constitutions?  What they did inwardly was not the same policy as they expressed outwardly. They were smart to express neutrality to foreign nations outwardly while enforcing Christianity within.
I do so categorically deny that they required Christianity of any state.  This is easy to check with a simple text search.  You are the one claiming that when they said 'religion', they actually meant Christianity, without any support whatsoever.

You are also the one claiming that when they said that the government of the United States was not based on Christianity, they were merely "expressing neutrality".  Sounds more like hypocrisy[1] and lying[2] to me.  Personally, I think this is complete rubbish.  I consider the founders to be honorable and decent men who would never have stooped to such chicanery and doubletalk in official treaties with other nations.  If they said that the government was in no way based on Christianity, well, that means the government was in no way based on Christianity.
 1. saying one thing while doing another
 2. saying something knowing full well that it's not actually true
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on January 13, 2013, 04:46:16 AM
3. After talking to your city fire inspector about the '89 gas leak, the fuel pump in your truck malfunctions and leaks fuelc.
c: Fuel leaks in vehicles that have internal combustion engines are very common.

Wayne, how often do you talk about your stories?  You came here specifically to tell them, so I'm guessing they form a BIG part of your conversation.

What are the odds, do you think, of something gas related happening just after telling your gas story?  How many times have you told your gas story, then gone home, looked at the stove....and discovered you DIDN'T leave the gas on when you went out?


<<edit: fixed typos - seems my wireless keyboard is running out of battery>>
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Nick on January 13, 2013, 06:53:03 AM
Wayne, if there is a biblical pattern in place for the destruction of America then according to you and others I assume it is going to happen because the bible can't be wrong ...right?  So I'm going to just enjoy myself.  You can worry about it.

Also, Wayne, I'm always curious.  How did you find us here at WWGHA? 
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: wheels5894 on January 13, 2013, 07:56:07 AM
Yes, Wayne, if you think there is a plan fro the destruction of the USA, can you point us to the biblical verse that says so, please?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 13, 2013, 11:05:29 AM
Other reasons why crime increased in the late 20th century, besides that pesky lack of prayer problem? Researchers are now looking at the element/metal lead, that was in paint (until 1976) and, wait for it, gasoline, until it was slowly phased out late in the century! It was already being phased out in 1989 but maybe Wayne was clued in (albeit way too late) before the rest of us or something.

This article discusses the issue:
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link-gasoline?page=1 (http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link-gasoline?page=1)

It is a long article, but worth the read if you are at all interested. The bottom line? There are compelling arguments for saying, to quote a story commenting on the above article, that lead was "a driver of the late 20th century surge in violent crime, drops in IQ, cognitive deficits and incidences of ADHD"

But that would be science, and god hasn't invented that yet, so it can't be true. (That's my guess as to what Wayne's response will be).

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Add Homonym on January 13, 2013, 11:20:12 AM
Muslims are allowed to lie for 2 famous reasons (1) if they are living in an oppressive state, they are allowed to pretend to be Christian, (2) if lying can cause then end to a war, or dispute, then it's considered noble.

If lying is such a "No Go", then why is Christianity a lie from start to finish?
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/lying.htm

At least Islam doesn't tell me that a man was a God, and resurrected. It also doesn't tell me that a principle proponent of it was going to hell (Matt 5:19)
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Nick on January 13, 2013, 11:22:52 AM
Muslims are allowed to lie for 2 famous reasons (1) if they are living in an oppressive state, they are allowed to pretend to be Christian, (2) if lying can cause then end to a war, or dispute, then it's considered noble.

If lying is such a "No Go", then why is Christianity a lie from start to finish?
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/lying.htm

At least Islam doesn't tell me that a man was a God, and resurrected. It also doesn't tell me that a principle proponent of it was going to hell (Matt 5:19)
So that (1) is how Obama is getting away with it. ;)
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: wheels5894 on January 13, 2013, 11:36:22 AM


If lying is such a "No Go", then why is Christianity a lie from start to finish?
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/lying.htm


I hope you're not saying the Islam isn't a lie - it looks rather like the 'prophet' and his associates made the whole lot up to get a group together so as to get political power. After they won power, it didn't take long to make it look religious though!
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: wheels5894 on January 13, 2013, 11:39:21 AM


This article discusses the issue:
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link-gasoline?page=1 (http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link-gasoline?page=1)

Thanks for a very interesting article, PP. Science is quite fascinating and revealing - more so than anything religion comes up with, anyway!

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: screwtape on January 13, 2013, 01:27:04 PM
I'm glad to see Wayne isn't letting facts get in the way of his prejudiced beliefs. 
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 13, 2013, 01:37:09 PM
I'm glad to see Wayne isn't letting facts get in the way of his prejudiced beliefs.

Why buy when you can make your own?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 12 Monkeys on January 13, 2013, 03:20:35 PM
Can we look at how China is prospering as a true sign that communist commercialism means they have the one true religion and that God is rewarding them for their actions?

 According to Wayne's theories anyways.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: shnozzola on January 13, 2013, 07:03:42 PM
  Whether you knowledge it or not, you are the beneficiary of a form of government that could never have come into being left to atheist philosophy. 

   Wow, I disagree.  IMO, one of the greatest things about the United States of America is the founding based on the freedom of religion.  Mr. Harropson, don't you realize how much the persecution  Europeans put up with led to the freedoms the U.S. form of government is based on. It is one of the most important advances in world government that a society's  leaders learned not to choose and force a type of belief on it's people.

Now, having said that, the following excellent article shows how different states were making different rules that did not always support the idea of religious tolerance.  I consider the well respected Smithsonian Magazine a fairly impartial look at history.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/Americas-True-History-of-Religious-Tolerance.html?c=y&page=3

Quote
Madison wanted Jefferson’s view to become the law of the land when he went to the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia in 1787. And as framed in Philadelphia that year, the U.S. Constitution clearly stated in Article VI that federal elective and appointed officials “shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution, but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.”

This passage—along with the facts that the Constitution does not mention God or a deity (except for a pro forma “year of our Lord” date) and that its very first amendment forbids Congress from making laws that would infringe of the free exercise of religion—attests to the founders’ resolve that America be a secular republic. The men who fought the Revolution may have thanked Providence and attended church regularly—or not. But they also fought a war against a country in which the head of state was the head of the church. Knowing well the history of religious warfare that led to America’s settlement, they clearly understood both the dangers of that system and of sectarian conflict.
Let me know how the article reads to you.  I apologize if I am repeating some of these statements that others have included. My hope is that you look at the differences in religious and non religious belief as part of the patch work of life that is to be celebrated and studied by everyone.  Maybe I'm an idealist, Wayne, but not having the information on all the different beliefs of men keeps me from wanting to condemn any beliefs.
 edit spelling
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Add Homonym on January 13, 2013, 08:55:12 PM
I hope you're not saying the Islam isn't a lie - it looks rather like the 'prophet' and his associates made the whole lot up to get a group together so as to get political power. After they won power, it didn't take long to make it look religious though!

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/denis_giron/multiple.html

This article raises the possibility that Mohammed was a fiction, like Jesus, and that the Quran is a bunch of oral traditions stitched together, and then attributed to someone, by other books. This explains its haphazard construction.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 13, 2013, 09:15:22 PM
Wayne, it seems that no amount of rational, intelligent reasoning will sway you from your conviction that your experiences are anything but supernatural. You refuse to even acknowledge that coincidences, even some that are incredibly unlikely (of which none of yours are), do happen.

Not true.  Coincidences happen as you have described that have no connection to supernatural intervention.  They happen to everybody, including me, and one thing I will admit here is that because of the unusual frequency that supernatural things happen to me there will be cases that I will likely misinterpret one or more with meaning that absolutely is not related.  I'm not afraid to be wrong about them either, I just laugh at myself.  I was on my way to disassociate and degrade any connection with my old story, but then the fuel pump gas leak, for me, prevented it.  For you it meant absolutely nothing.  Not worth mentioning.  Perfectly normal.  Happens ever moment of every day.   

The bible says that God is the rewarder of those that diligently seek him and I attribute the higher than average frequency that things happen to me to my seeking.  Under this standard it is understandable that those who don't seek god will experience the supernatural less, if at all.  Your atheist preconception that requires you to dismiss all accounts of the supernatural leaves you with exactly no ability to recognise it if it did occur.  I'm not sure if I worded that as well as I could have but if you saw George Clooney's character in O Brother Where Art Thou, In it he is told by a blind black guy early in the film that he would see marvelous things, one of them would be a cow on the roof of some kind of shed.  Of course, it came true later in the film during a flood just as the old seer stated, but Clooney continues a conversation while the cow passes his view with eyes wide open and simply dismisses what his eyes see because it didn't fit his rational template.  A be liver would likely blurt out, hey look, there's the cow just like the seer said!  But Clooney drones on with his rationalist soliloquy as if to talk himself out of what obviously happened.   A perfect example of it is below and I quote:

Quote
1. A gas leak causes your local theater to close, thereby preventing your daughter from seeing the '89 Batman filma.
2. 23 years later, in a different theater, a different Batman film is interrupted by a madman who releases tear gas and shoots up the place, killing 12 peopleb.
3. After talking to your city fire inspector about the '89 gas leak, the fuel pump in your truck malfunctions and leaks fuelc.

and then..

Quote
a: Gas leaks are not uncommon in structures that utilize natural gas.
b: A madman shooting up a theater is an extremely uncommon occurrence.
c: Fuel leaks in vehicles that have internal combustion engines are very common.
Two of the three incidents in your story are fairly commonplace, while one is not. The only incidents that affected you personally were the two common ones. It is you and you alone who connects the two common occurrences with the uncommon one.


That is just how George Glazed over seeing the cow on the roof.  Maybe that's why I liked the movie so much because it did so much to illustrate the kind of argument we have here, and it did it with humor that made the rationalist look silly.  For a while it was the only DVD I owned.



Quote
You have said several times that the one true gospel should be taught throughout the land, especially in schools, but Wayne, you are a Mormon! You must be aware that the vast majority of Christians view your religion as little more than a cult. There is no way most Christians would agree that the Mormon faith should be taught in schools. So what one true gospel are you talking about?

Ouch, you got me there didn't you.  I never blame people for calling out that seeming contradiction because it might be the grandest contradiction in my life.  I am a born again Christian in the genere of the Billy Graham variety that has chosen to worship our Savior Jesus Christ among Mormons.  Very weird, I know. I have gotten away with it so far but not because I "believe all the doctrine" but more because I trust that the spirit of Christ can be found anywhere regardless of doctrine. Which He can.  In God's great mystery that has presented itself in Christianity there is much division.  If I understand the wisdom of God and the founders there is within all those divisions a deep abiding wisdom that defies man's rational preferences.  The Mormons start out with a concept that there must be one true church, and darned if it isn't the one set up by Joseph Smith.  The success of the church to me reinforces a remarkable mini tower of babel wisdom of God that confuses the denominations in order to disperse faith in God across (in this case) the plains, without disturbing the simple "Jesus loves me this I know" core concept, which is the level at which I personally operate.  (I teach seven year olds).

Quote
You are certain that god is unhappy about the '62 ruling that banished school-sanctioned prayer, which is why he allows (or even causes) children to be blown away in schools and theaters today. How petty is this deity, and why would you worship such a monster?

The banned prayer read something like this: “Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our Country,”  until you selfish and rude people came in and said:  "we don't like god and we are offended that you pray".  We want you to stop!"      I'm certain He's not happy, or we wouldn't be talking would we.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 13, 2013, 09:28:09 PM
  Whether you knowledge it or not, you are the beneficiary of a form of government that could never have come into being left to atheist philosophy. 

   Wow, I disagree.  IMO, one of the greatest things about the United States of America is the founding based on the freedom of religion. 

You would do well to acknowledge one simple over riding concept in all of this, one that should help direct you to the most profound conclusion, that wonderful freedom was articulated and put into the founding documents by Christians.  Need I say more?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 13, 2013, 09:40:56 PM
Quote

The text states very plainly that the USA is not based upon Christianity.  To suggest otherwise means that they were being deceptive when they wrote it.  That's not a good foundation for "neighborliness" to the world.

I'll respond with a little of what I know about WWII history.  If I remember right, Douglas MacArthur after accepting Japan's unconditional surrender ordered Christian Missionaries funded by the US Government (Or maybe the authority of the Allies) into Japan to begin evangelizing and civilizing the occupied.  Who gave him permission to do that?  I'd be outraged if I were a self respecting Atheist!
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Add Homonym on January 13, 2013, 10:40:40 PM
You would do well to acknowledge one simple over riding concept in all of this, one that should help direct you to the most profound conclusion, that wonderful freedom was articulated and put into the founding documents by Christians.  Need I say more?

Yeah. You need to explain why Jefferson described the Bible as mostly a dunghill, and why Thomas Paine was victimised for being an atheist. Also, Washington's church attendance recorded in his own diary, and the attestation of one of his slaves, that he spent most of the time boozing and playing card games.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Add Homonym on January 13, 2013, 10:50:15 PM
The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.
-- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88), from Adrienne Koch, ed, The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society (1965) p. 258, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/adams.htm
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 13, 2013, 11:07:36 PM
No more long essays for Wayne. All he is capable of is tiny responses, at best. And he ignored me. Now I know how screwtape feels

Two can play the terse game.

Besides, I'm easier to quote correctly that way.

So here is my short input this time.

Well, Wayne, how are you going to feel when snake-handling pentecostals take over and mandate, besides prayer, free roaming rattlesnakes in every classroom?

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: JeffPT on January 14, 2013, 12:00:55 AM
Not true.  Coincidences happen as you have described that have no connection to supernatural intervention.

What are the distinguishing characteristics of a coincidence that happens without the interference of a deity versus one with the intervention of a deity?  Is it simply whether or not it fits with your personal opinion of what God might or might not do?  That would be rather arbitrary if it were the case, and anyone with a belief in any sort of God is capable of saying the exact same thing about their coincidences.     

They happen to everybody, including me, and one thing I will admit here is that because of the unusual frequency that supernatural things happen to me there will be cases that I will likely misinterpret one or more with meaning that absolutely is not related.
A supernatural event is something that could not be explained in any other way except with the intervention of God.  I am not going out on a limb at all here by saying no, nothing like that has ever happened to you.

And without interviewing millions of people, how do you know that 'supernatural' (uncommon) things happen to you more than they happen to other people?  You're just asserting it as if you have some sort of evidence when you know full well that you don't.  I could assert that twice as many uncommon things happen to me than happen to you, and what are you going to say about it? No they don't?  And I'll say, yes they do, and won't that be a fun, childish exchange.  You can't get away with saying stupid stuff like this on this board.  It doesn't fly.  You have to back up what you say. 

I'm not afraid to be wrong about them either, I just laugh at myself.

We're laughing right along at you with you.  You're wrong about all of them.  Sorry.  You're just naive, gullible and incredibly credulous. 

I was on my way to disassociate and degrade any connection with my old story, but then the fuel pump gas leak, for me, prevented it.  For you it meant absolutely nothing.  Not worth mentioning.  Perfectly normal.  Happens ever moment of every day.   
You keep going back to that story (which I painfully read through) but I'd like to point something out to you and it has to do with the word 'gas' that you seem so hung up on.  The term 'gas', as used in a car is actually short for 'gasoline'.  It's a petroleum derived liquid that is useful in internal combustion engines.  A 'gas leak' in a movie theater is not the same 'gas' as you use in your car.  Natural gas is mostly methane, carbon dioxide, etc.   And the 'gas' that was used by the guy in the Batman movie was another completely different thing that's actually known as tear gas (chlorobenzylidenemalononitrile).  You somehow have taken the word 'gas' and the many ways it's used in the English language and thought 'huh, look at those three instances where 'gas' was involved' and treated it as if it's something special.  That is such an idiotic thing to do.  Just because the words gasoline, methane, and chlorobenzylidenemalononitrile are shortened or renamed in the English language to the word 'gas', that doesn't mean anything.  Try retelling your little story using the proper words for those 3 completely different substances and see if it still feels like it's more than a coincidence. Try saying the killer in the movie theater released chlorobenzylidenemalononitrile, that your fuel pump was leaking a petroleum based fluid, and that that a pipe in the movie theater was venting dangerous amounts of methane and relating them then.  It's ridiculous.  It's beyond that actually.  It's borderline mentally retarded.  There is no connection, and the very notion that you were responsible for the gas leak (in the letter you sent to the PD) had me laughing out loud. 

Have you seen the first Batman movie since then?  Has Dana?  It's pretty good and I didn't kill anyone after I saw it.  Nor did anyone I know.  Go figure.  You should rent it and see if it drives you to go on a killing spree.  I think it more likely you'd just shrug and move on with your day when it was over. 

The bible says that God is the rewarder of those that diligently seek him and I attribute the higher than average frequency that things happen to me to my seeking. 
You're just asserting stupid stuff here Wayne.  I could easily say that I get 10 times more things I seek than you do. 

Under this standard it is understandable that those who don't seek god will experience the supernatural less, if at all. 
Prove that something supernatural happened to you Wayne.  Because until you can, not one supernatural thing has ever happened to you.  Uncommon things happen to everyone.  In an 80 year lifespan, uncommon things are going to happen to everyone.  To put that into perspective, that's 42 million or so minutes, which means that if something only has a 1 in a million chance of happening, its likely to happen 42 times in your life.  Until you can prove that something was supernatural, then it's nothing more than your credulity.   

Your atheist preconception that requires you to dismiss all accounts of the supernatural leaves you with exactly no ability to recognise it if it did occur.
Actually, that's completely wrong.  Only a rock solid appreciation for the natural world allows someone to distinguish whether or not something was supernatural.  If you don't understand, or are ignorant of the natural world, then you might find yourself seeing many natural things as supernatural things.  It is a lack of understanding of the natural world (ignorance) that leaves you with the limited ability to discern the natural from the supernatural.     

And I am also going to say that you, starting with your belief in a God that somehow has chosen you above others, makes your mind more receptive to the things that confirm, rather than discredit your position.  So you see lots of things as supernatural when they are, after all, not supernatural at all.  It's called confirmation bias, and you reek of it.   

(I teach seven year olds).

The scariest thing you've said so far, bar none, is this.   

The banned prayer read something like this: “Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our Country,”  until you selfish and rude people came in and said:  "we don't like god and we are offended that you pray".  We want you to stop!"      I'm certain He's not happy, or we wouldn't be talking would we.

Actually, whether or not God is real, we'd still be talking Wayne.  Whether God exists, or whether you erroneously believe God exists, we'd still be talking.  All it takes is the belief.  Just like the people who believe in other gods that you don't think are real have come here and spoken to us.  You don't know it, but your God is as real as theirs is.  Funny thing is, they didn't know their gods were fake either. 

But let me ask you something...  Can kids pray in school?  Can teachers pray in school?  Are bibles allowed in school?  Yes to all 3 Wayne.  Yes to all 3.  But noooo, you don't see those things, do you.  You only see that school mandated prayer was taken away and you get your pants all in a bunch.  You can't force your religious nonsense on everyone and that's got you mad.  Well get used to it.  Your kind has been torturing, maiming, and killing people who don't believe your fairy tale for a few thousand years now and we're done taking your shit. 

And you didn't answer his question.  You dodged it.  You worship a God that stands by and does nothing when children die.  Imagine it Wayne.  God is watching as the mad man goes rampaging through the school and does nothing while kid after kid is shot down.  He stands by with folded arms as blood splatters on the floor.  He doesn't help.  Doesn't lift a finger.  Doesn't bother to jam the trigger mechanism after the first few kids go down.  Nooo, he wants more kids dead because OTHER PEOPLE decided that religion in schools should not be mandated (which is absolutely, 100% constitutionally correct BTW).  What sort of God is that Wayne?  Seriously, that's fucked up.  You worship that God and you feel good about it?  What is wrong with you?  Why would anyone want to worship that?  If God can make gas leak in a movie theater due to your indecisive nature, the least he could do is jam a trigger mechanism in an automatic weapon.  You don't think anyone in that building was praying for that? 

If God is as unhappy as you say he is, why does he not take it out on the people who made him angry?  Why take it out on the kids?  Why send a completely ambiguous message that nobody except a few whack jobs like yourself can see?  The event will do nothing to get prayer back in school.  Your position doesn't make any sense at all.  It's such a stupid thought.  You're just not an intelligent person if you think this way.  You're just not. 

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 14, 2013, 12:02:39 AM
I will promptly respond to anyone who can pass this simple test.  What did a gas pump in my truck have to do with the story I wrote?

A guy who was in a 007 movie is on a flight with you and your phone comes up, an your phone number ends with 0070, and you are astonished.

I think I answered this elsewhere.  There are many more humdrum meaningless coincidences than there are of the supernatural.

Quote
This is all a case of not understanding statistical probabilities and the absolute inevitability of such similarities occurring. There are only ten possible numbers. An author chose one combination, your phone provider chose another, and they happened to match under a specific set of circumstances, and instead of being simply bemused, you think that it is a god talking to you. Hey, England was bombed by terrorists on July 7, 2005. Lets see. James Bond was a British spy. O7/07. Not quite the same, but that must have been what god was talking about and you missed it.


I have and imperfect but healthy filter to keep from letting my mind attribute too much to the meaningless.

Quote
There are not an infinite number of single digit numbers. There are not an infinite number of fiction characters. There are not an infinite number of possible human interactions. There are not an infinite number of ways to heat a theatre or power a vehicle. There are not an infinite number of ways for cows to cross the road and nor an infinite number of ways for your headlights to fail (by the way, you don't have much luck with vehicles. Maybe that's god telling you not to drive).


I have filtered out all the unreasonable associations here.  By the way, I am my own mechanic, I have a passion for auto repair, I love to drive, and the supernatural things that God blesses me with enhance that pleasure like you wouldn't believe.  Now if it were Satan affecting the car's and driving, I might come to the conclusion that I shouldn't drive.  I do appreciate your comprehensive analysis though.

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You are simplifying the social and political problems in our country, in that you are proclaiming that if we still had prayer in schools, by golly we would all be living just like they did in that documentary called "Leave it to Beaver". You want all to be simple because then your solutions can be simple. And you fail to understand that simple answers don't exist because simple problems don't either.

Just because the problems are complex doesn't mean all simple answers are irrelevant.  Not believing in god and not fearing eternal judgement increases the number and frequency of killings.  That's a simple statement that affects a world of complications. See?

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Back in the  30's the St. Valentines massacre, where mobsters shot some other mobsters, took place in a theatre. I assume there were times when some mobsters killed other mobsters with a baseball bat. Theatre. Bats. Man. Looks like your parents missed the signs too, and we were still able to pray.Your god has been trying to tell us for a long time, I guess. He saw it coming.

You are wearing yourself out here.

Quote
I remember reading a story in Readers Digest in the early 60's. It seems that a high school kid walked into a military surplus store with a buddy and the first thing he noticed is that there was a big pile of packed parachutes for sale. "Cool", he thought. His father had been a paratrooper, and hence he was very interested to see the kind of equipment his father had used during the war. He walked up to the pile of parachutes, picked the first one up, looked first at the front of it and then turned it around. There, written in ink, was his fathers name. It was his dad's parachute. This, if Readers Digest is to be trusted, is a true story.

I suppose if I were you I'd write and complain to readers Digest, but truth is, I believe the account and would have thought it a wonderful story.  For me it is anything but surprising, because I know how these things work.  It is quite wonderful actually.

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We haven't had anybody shoot up a jump school or blow up a mall wearing puffy white nylon pants. It was just a coincidence. And that is what you experienced. However, for whatever reason, you have decided to attach significance to the story, so much so that you feel the need to occasionally take flak from others over the incidents. You seem unable to understand that a movie franchise that has made almost 4 billion dollars over the last quarter century is more likely to be involved in multiple incidents than, say, Groundhog Day, which was in and out of the theaters in just a few months. You want to attach importance to gas, as in gas, being similar enough to gas, as in petrol, to be the same thing to you. There aren't that many ages kids can be, but six seems like a magic number to you.

You make it so complicated.  That's so exhausting.

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Its bad enough that we don't agree on religion or politics ( I read some of your blog as well). But we may as well be speaking two totally different languages if you are going to insist that obtuse events in your life in 1989 actually able to portend events in 2012. And that the connection is perfectly clear to you. If only in hindsight.

Fascinating isn't it?
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You did not go to the authorities in 1990 and warn them about an impending slaughter. And if you had, even the most ardent and christian cops among them would have laughed you out of the building.


See how lucky I am?  I had no idea it had anything to do with Aurora, at the time.


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To me, the discussion you are having with others about history are fairly unimportant, because as long as you are going to take the stance that your god was speaking to you via leaks and headlights, I have a heck of a time giving you credibility in any other area. Sorry, but I just can't do it.
You have a lot of company, but I do appreciate your concern.  You know that 007 thing. Was that  bazaar or what?  Something that I didn't mention in the story that I found out later I thought was absolutely fascinating.  That Richard Kyle guy turned out to be a very dedicated Christian.  He was featured on 700 club because through faith in Jesus Christ he was able to stop a destructive drinking habit, and tuned down beer commercial jobs at considerable expense to himself in order to remain a good example to others with drinking problems.  Discovering after the fact that the actor God put on that small plane with me, to have some fun with me, had a deep devotion for Jesus Christ like I do made me realise that God was knocking two of his own devotees heads together for no other reason than that he could. It answered to the observation I had that though the man has a gnarly look and intimidating stature there was a remarkable kindness in his eyes, that was evidence of his faith in God. So God assigned me the 0070 phone number in advance because he could, shut down the engine in my 77 Buick Regal with the odometer at 000,000.7, later, just because he could.  I'm hopeless Parking Places... you may as well give up trying.  But I love you for it.
How's my quoting quotient?

I don't know which I should give up on first. Your premonitions or your quoting  :D
Fixed it for you. Please note that you have a "preview" button next to the "Save" button. Use it and see (towards the top of the page above the text window) what your post is going to look like before you post. Technically speaking, it would be hard to mess up worse than you did on this one.
PP
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 14, 2013, 12:05:45 AM
No more long essays for Wayne. All he is capable of is tiny responses, at best. And he ignored me. Now I know how screwtape feels

Two can play the terse game.

Besides, I'm easier to quote correctly that way.

So here is my short input this time.

Well, Wayne, how are you going to feel when snake-handling pentecostals take over and mandate, besides prayer, free roaming rattlesnakes in every classroom?

I was so busy answering each of your questions that I neglected to respond to this in a timely manner.

I like all of you guys, I just have a limited capacity
God bless.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 14, 2013, 01:08:46 AM
Not true.  Coincidences happen as you have described that have no connection to supernatural intervention.

What are the distinguishing characteristics of a coincidence that happens without the interference of a deity versus one with the intervention of a deity?  Is it simply whether or not it fits with your personal opinion of what God might or might not do?  That would be rather arbitrary if it were the case, and anyone with a belief in any sort of God is capable of saying the exact same thing about their coincidences.

I'd be flattering myself beyond my capacity to attempt an answer this.
I'm not being dismissive. I'm just not ready to speak for others capacity.  I don't think I'm that special, just that I beg a lot.  (pray)   

They happen to everybody, including me, and one thing I will admit here is that because of the unusual frequency that supernatural things happen to me there will be cases that I will likely misinterpret one or more with meaning that absolutely is not related.
A supernatural event is something that could not be explained in any other way except with the intervention of God.  I am not going out on a limb at all here by saying no, nothing like that has ever happened to you.

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And without interviewing millions of people, how do you know that 'supernatural' (uncommon) things happen to you more than they happen to other people?

My claims of unusual frequency for me are that I'm not surrounded by many people who have shown me their list of incidences.  Nothing scientific in my claim, it is a great queston though.

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You're just asserting it as if you have some sort of evidence when you know full well that you don't.  I could assert that twice as many uncommon things happen to me than happen to you, and what are you going to say about it? No they don't?  And I'll say, yes they do, and won't that be a fun, childish exchange.  You can't get away with saying stupid stuff like this on this board.  It doesn't fly.  You have to back up what you say.
 
I get your point.  I can only assure you that if I was knowingly telling a lie that my nose would drop off, or grow or whatever.  I'm not kidding about any of it, and I can't prove it either.  It is a testimony that you will just have to make with what you will.  Thanks for entertaining it as far as you have.

I'm not afraid to be wrong about them either, I just laugh at myself.

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We're laughing right along at you with you.  You're wrong about all of them.  Sorry.  You're just naive, gullible and incredibly credulous. 


I express my desire for honesty and you need to insult it.  That's ok.

I was on my way to disassociate and degrade any connection with my old story, but then the fuel pump gas leak, for me, prevented it.  For you it meant absolutely nothing.  Not worth mentioning.  Perfectly normal.  Happens ever moment of every day.   
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You keep going back to that story (which I painfully read through) but I'd like to point something out to you and it has to do with the word 'gas' that you seem so hung up on.  The term 'gas', as used in a car is actually short for 'gasoline'.  It's a petroleum derived liquid that is useful in internal combustion engines.  A 'gas leak' in a movie theater is not the same 'gas' as you use in your car.  Natural gas is mostly methane, carbon dioxide, etc.   And the 'gas' that was used by the guy in the Batman movie was another completely different thing that's actually known as tear gas (chlorobenzylidenemalononitrile).  You somehow have taken the word 'gas' and the many ways it's used in the English language and thought 'huh, look at those three instances where 'gas' was involved' and treated it as if it's something special.  That is such an idiomatic thing to do.  Just because the words gasoline, methane, and chlorobenzylidenemalononitrile are shortened or renamed in the English language to the word 'gas', that doesn't mean anything.  Try retelling your little story using the proper words for those 3 completely different substances and see if it still feels like it's more than a coincidence. Try saying the killer in the movie theater released chlorobenzylidenemalononitrile, that your fuel pump was leaking a petroleum based fluid, and that that a pipe in the movie theater was venting dangerous amounts of methane and relating them then.  It's ridiculous.  It's beyond that actually.  It's borderline mentally retarded.  There is no connection, and the very notion that you were responsible for the gas leak (in the letter you sent to the PD) had me laughing out loud.


I get your point about the gas.  The only thing you are missing is that if I interpreted the message accurately as God meant it for me to be interpreted because of God's specific way of communicating to me,  God may just be laughing at you right now.   

If you know bible stories, you know that miracles can be abstact.. donkeys talking bushes burning, birds feeding a man, manna from heaven, flaming tongues of fire.  It's all weird stuff.  Abstract, but to those to whom the message is meant, meaningful, and if I may say worthy of fully documenting for further scrutiny and edification.  Thanks for helping me with it.

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Have you seen the first Batman movie since then?  Has Dana?  It's pretty good and I didn't kill anyone after I saw it.  Nor did anyone I know.  Go figure.  You should rent it and see if it drives you to go on a killing spree.  I think it more likely you'd just shrug and move on with your day when it was over.
 
Maybe.  Critics say they are dark and tend to give the villain more attention than the good guy, and the good guy is dark in his own right.  Think about that.  Maybe God thinks that's a bad combination, dark heroes fighting dark villians.  Try thinking like god and you may find the over all message is one that needs to be gassed.

The bible says that God is the re-warder of those that diligently seek him and I attribute the higher than average frequency that things happen to me to my seeking. 
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You're just asserting stupid stuff here Wayne.  I could easily say that I get 10 times more things I seek than you do. 


Go ahead. Maybe you do.  Don't misinterpret what I'm saying here.  The re-warder thing is a bible verse, if God was lying about it take it up with him.

Under this standard it is understandable that those who don't seek god will experience the supernatural less, if at all. 
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Prove that something supernatural happened to you Wayne.
 

You ask what I cannot provide beyond what you have already read.  If you don't see anything extraordinary in what I say happened, leave it at that.  I'm doing my best, and I'll try harder, if I can think of how.  I have a bunch of stories like this.  I think that they are worth writing, because I'm not writing fiction, I'm reporting incidences.  i hope you can forgive my my fascination for it all.

Your atheist preconception that requires you to dismiss all accounts of the supernatural leaves you with exactly no ability to recognise it if it did occur.
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Actually, that's completely wrong.  Only a rock solid appreciation for the natural world allows someone to distinguish whether or not something was supernatural.  If you don't understand, or are ignorant of the natural world, then you might find yourself seeing many natural things as supernatural things.  It is a lack of understanding of the natural world (ignorance) that leaves you with the limited ability to discern the natural from the supernatural.     


George Washington during the french and Indian war was up against an Indian commander that ordered all his men to single out washington to shoot because he was the leader.  During the battle he had two horses shot from under him, and after the battle he wrote to his wife that there were four bullet holes in his coat, but not a scratch on him.  Years later during peace he returned on a diplomatic mission to the area and that Chief traveled a considerable distance to meet washington having heard he would be there.  The Chief told Washington that he just had to meet the man that could not die in battle.  He told the general that he had ordered his men to all shoot at him and that he shot at him seventeen different times.  You are going to ask me to prove this story is true, I just know it. I can't.  But I find it profoundly believable not because I'm gullible, but because I know the God that is able to protect.  It's the God that stopped me short of a slaughter of cows on the road.  You may decide that it is entirely natural for a man to have four bullet holes in his coat with no injury, and so there  is nothing to report. The Indian, Washington, and I might beg to differ.

I hope my responses so far have helped.  the rest of your post was pretty angry.  I'm not dismissing it, but I'll leave it for now.
Thank you for the time you spent.
Wayne
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Aaron123 on January 14, 2013, 01:32:33 AM
I'll respond with a little of what I know about WWII history.  If I remember right, Douglas MacArthur after accepting Japan's unconditional surrender ordered Christian Missionaries funded by the US Government (Or maybe the authority of the Allies) into Japan to begin evangelizing and civilizing the occupied.  Who gave him permission to do that?  I'd be outraged if I were a self respecting Atheist!

Is it just me, or is Wayne expecting us to be shocked, or otherwise angry at these "revelations" he's making?

By the way, only 1% of the population in Japan are christains.  The rest are either non-religious, or a mix of shintoism and buddhism.

For something that (he's insinuating) helped to reform and modernize Japan, it sure had little staying power, eh?   :P
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: DumpsterFire on January 14, 2013, 01:40:45 AM
Not true.  Coincidences happen as you have described that have no connection to supernatural intervention.  They happen to everybody, including me, and one thing I will admit here is that because of the unusual frequency that supernatural things happen to me there will be cases that I will likely misinterpret one or more with meaning that absolutely is not related.

How do you determine when you've made a misinterpretation?

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I was on my way to disassociate and degrade any connection with my old story, but then the fuel pump gas leak, for me, prevented it.  For you it meant absolutely nothing.  Not worth mentioning.  Perfectly normal.  Happens ever moment of every day.   

I never said fuel leaks happen every moment of every day, I said they are not uncommon. Considering how often your stories mention car troubles, it seems such malfunctions are particularly common for you. Obviously, this whole '89 Batman prophecy thing has been at the forefront of your mind since the Aurora shooting, so anything that could possibly be interpreted as supporting your conclusion will be seen as such. As Anfauglir touched on earlier, the real question is how often did you research/reflect on/discuss/consider the Batman story since the Aurora shooting, and what were the chances that some other incident involving gas (especially given your all-encompassing natural gas=tear gas=gasoline loosey goosey interpretation of the word) would occur in that time. I would say the chances were quite high. Think about it. Just after sharing your story here at WWGHA you could have gotten onto an elevator and had the person next to you cut a giant fart and that would be as much a confirmation to you as your fuel leak was. And it would be an even better indication of god's sense of humor, right?

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George Clooney's character in O Brother Where Art Thou, In it he is told by a blind black guy early in the film that he would see marvelous things, one of them would be a cow on the roof of some kind of shed.  Of course, it came true later in the film during a flood just as the old seer stated, but Clooney continues a conversation while the cow passes his view with eyes wide open and simply dismisses what his eyes see because it didn't fit his rational template.  A be liver would likely blurt out, hey look, there's the cow just like the seer said!  But Clooney drones on with his rationalist soliloquy as if to talk himself out of what obviously happened.   A perfect example of it is below and I quote:

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1. A gas leak causes your local theater to close, thereby preventing your daughter from seeing the '89 Batman filma.
2. 23 years later, in a different theater, a different Batman film is interrupted by a madman who releases tear gas and shoots up the place, killing 12 peopleb.
3. After talking to your city fire inspector about the '89 gas leak, the fuel pump in your truck malfunctions and leaks fuelc.

and then..

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a: Gas leaks are not uncommon in structures that utilize natural gas.
b: A madman shooting up a theater is an extremely uncommon occurrence.
c: Fuel leaks in vehicles that have internal combustion engines are very common.
Two of the three incidents in your story are fairly commonplace, while one is not. The only incidents that affected you personally were the two common ones. It is you and you alone who connects the two common occurrences with the uncommon one.


That is just how George Glazed over seeing the cow on the roof.  Maybe that's why I liked the movie so much because it did so much to illustrate the kind of argument we have here, and it did it with humor that made the rationalist look silly.

I have read every word of your Batman story. I have even corrected a few folks here who made some mistaken assumptions about the story. There is no cow on a roof[1] in it. You have come to the definitive conclusion based on a few very minor similarities that your experiences are supernaturally connected to another event that had literally no direct effect on your life whatsoever. Don't come back here accusing me of not seeing the cow, show me the cow, Wayne[2]! I promise you it is nowhere near as obvious as you think it is.

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Ouch, you got me there didn't you.  I never blame people for calling out that seeming contradiction because it might be the grandest contradiction in my life.  I am a born again Christian in the genere of the Billy Graham variety that has chosen to worship our Savior Jesus Christ among Mormons.  Very weird, I know. I have gotten away with it so far but not because I "believe all the doctrine" but more because I trust that the spirit of Christ can be found anywhere regardless of doctrine. Which He can.  In God's great mystery that has presented itself in Christianity there is much division.  If I understand the wisdom of God and the founders there is within all those divisions a deep abiding wisdom that defies man's rational preferences.  The Mormons start out with a concept that there must be one true church, and darned if it isn't the one set up by Joseph Smith.  The success of the church to me reinforces a remarkable mini tower of babel wisdom of God that confuses the denominations in order to disperse faith in God across (in this case) the plains, without disturbing the simple "Jesus loves me this I know" core concept, which is the level at which I personally operate.  (I teach seven year olds).

That is the longest non-answer to a question I've seen yet. What the bejeebus are you talking about, Wayne?!! :? Can you just answer what exactly it is you consider to be the One True GospelTM?

And BTW, if the spirit of Christ can be found anywhere regardless of doctrine, it follows that he can still be found in the very schools you say won't allow him in.

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The banned prayer read something like this: “Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our Country,”  until you selfish and rude people came in and said:  "we don't like god and we are offended that you pray".  We want you to stop!"      I'm certain He's not happy, or we wouldn't be talking would we.

Jeff already stole my thunder on this one, but it is such a strong indicator of your faulty rationale that I had to reiterate. In your view the mere fact that we are having this discussion proves that god exists and he is angry at atheists. But the only thing proven by it is that you believe in a god, and you believe he is angry. Well, it also proves that you possess enough self-righteous rudeness to join an atheist website for the express purpose of telling us that we are the cause of everything wrong in the world. Myopic much?
 1. I am speaking figuratively, of course
 2. that is possibly the weirdest thing I've ever typed
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Willie on January 14, 2013, 02:10:03 AM
With all this talk of gas leaks, schools, and children dying, I'm a little surprised that no one has yet mentioned (unless I missed it, though I did scan through the thread to try to avoid duplication) that the most deadly school disaster in U.S. History happened in 1937, well before the school prayer ruling.

On March 18, 1937 the New London School in New London Texas was destroyed by a huge explosion caused by a gas leak. More than 295 died, and more than 300 were injured, many seriously. A large majority of the victims were children in fifth through 11th grades. Most of the adult victims were teachers.

References:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_London_School_explosion
http://www.newlondonschool.org/
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: William on January 14, 2013, 02:38:15 AM
 :o Willie thanks for that - really puts it in perspective.

God really seems to love letting off gas before big trouble  :)  He even used it to kill countless quails to feed his people just before he got the shits with them and gave them the plague:

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Numbers 11:31 And there went forth a wind from the Lord, and brought quails from the sea, and let them fall by the camp, as it were a day's journey on this side, and as it were a day's journey on the other side, round about the camp, and as it were two cubits high upon the face of the earth.
 
32 And the people stood up all that day, and all that night, and all the next day, and they gathered the quails: he that gathered least gathered ten homers: and they spread them all abroad for themselves round about the camp.
 
33 And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the Lord was kindled against the people, and the Lord smote the people with a very great plague.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on January 14, 2013, 04:44:50 AM
George Washington.....(glurge).

You are going to ask me to prove this story is true, I just know it. I can't.  ..... You may decide that it is entirely natural for a man to have four bullet holes in his coat with no injury....

Wayne, are you REALLY this disingenuous?  I've bolded the bit that - frankly - disgusts me about your responses.  You present a story that you admit you have NO way of proving - but sarcastically denigrate us for believing bullet holes "just happen"?  Sorry Wayne, it doesn't work like that - we have NO need to try and explain away a fantastic story about GW that you confess you have zero evidence for.

But HERE's an interesting thing, Wayne.  You believe this story - so you believe that your god will - somehow - ensure that bullets will not harm a person he particularly cares about.  So tell me, Wayne - why DIDN'T your god care about the people in the theatre?  Why DIDN'T he care about all those schoolchildren just a few weeks ago?

Your tale of GW makes it quite specific that your god can and will intervene in the world, and - quite specifically - stop bullets.  So if we DO accept your glurge here as true, Wayne, we have to ask searching and important questions about a god who will intervene in some cases, but remain resolutely absent in others.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: wheels5894 on January 14, 2013, 05:54:48 AM
I don't know what documentation there is for the GW incident but it sounds a fine example of a folk tale - probably starting from something minor and growing in the telling. I rather think that is exactly what we have with the stories about Jesus - whatever start5ed the story it grew in the telling. One only has to read Mark's account of something and then Matthew's with lots of added 'detail'.

Given the unlikelihood of the GW story being true, one would want something fair serious in the way of evidence - after all, who believes the statements in the beginning of the book of Mormon?

I say, no evidence means no reality.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on January 14, 2013, 07:29:17 AM
Critics say they are dark and tend to give the villain more attention than the good guy, and the good guy is dark in his own right.  Think about that.  Maybe God thinks that's a bad combination, dark heroes fighting dark villians.

Quite right, Wayne.  That's why in the Bible we never see Yahweh do anything that might be described as "dark".....

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 14, 2013, 10:29:01 AM
Wayne

Another relatively short response, to make it easier for you:

As per your book, God created the world, made a paradise, created a couple of inhabitants, and it didn't work out.

A few thousand years later he gets so pissed at how bad things are, he does the Noah thing. That didn't work out.

So a few thousand years later, he sends the kid. It helps some, but overall, it didn't work out.

Then in 1962 his chosen country bans prayer, and in a fit of desperation, a mere 27 years later he gives you a premonition. You end up missing the obvious references and as a resul, in 2012t he had to allow the death of a six year old girl and others in another theatre. The bullets that avoided George Washington were did not,in this case, miss the child. In other words, it didn't work out.

Omniscient beings should have seen this coming. Omnipotent beings should have a wider range of choices. This dude, if he exists, can't seem to do anything right. And you're still impressed?

P.S. In Vietnam, an average of 87,000 bullets were fired per enemy casualty. Today, in the middle east, an average of 250,000 bullets per casualty is being reported. And every war is full of stories of close calls, where people have bullet holes in their clothing without suffering injury. Again, even if the Washington story is true in terms of effort and result, you are again ignoring statistics. The same way your god does, apparently. What are the odds?

Because if feeble premonitions are his idea of effective communication, his idea of effective damage control, his idea of an effective response to what he considers a serious situation, his overall ineptness is simply getting worse and worse and worse. If he is real, the dude can't deity his way out of a wet paper bag. Which means even his most ardent supporters are in the same amount of trouble as the rest of us. He has all that power, and no idea what he is doing.

I'm glad I don't believe in him. I'm glad he's not real. Otherwise, even as a believer, I'd be scared sh*tless.


Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 14, 2013, 10:36:00 AM
With all this talk of gas leaks, schools, and children dying, I'm a little surprised that no one has yet mentioned (unless I missed it, though I did scan through the thread to try to avoid duplication) that the most deadly school disaster in U.S. History happened in 1937, well before the school prayer ruling.

On March 18, 1937 the New London School in New London Texas was destroyed by a huge explosion caused by a gas leak. More than 295 died, and more than 300 were injured, many seriously. A large majority of the victims were children in fifth through 11th grades. Most of the adult victims were teachers.

References:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_London_School_explosion
http://www.newlondonschool.org/

There are disasters that, quite clearly, don't have the signature of having removed the good effects of Christianity from public life.  I wouldn't hold Atheism to account for the one you just mentioned, but that wouldn't let you off the hook for Sandy Hook.  I have a feeling the killer was one of yours.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: naemhni on January 14, 2013, 10:42:13 AM
that wouldn't let you off the hook for Sandy Hook.  I have a feeling the killer was one of yours.

We don't know whether he was or not, but even if he was, so what?  He was probably also wearing shoes.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: wheels5894 on January 14, 2013, 10:54:57 AM

There are disasters that, quite clearly, don't have the signature of having removed the good effects of Christianity from public life.

Wayne, could you set out the criteria for deciding if a particular event has or has not "the signature of having removed the good effects of Christianity from public life."
 

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I wouldn't hold Atheism to account for the one you just mentioned, but that wouldn't let you off the hook for Sandy Hook.  I have a feeling the killer was one of yours.

In the case of Sandy Hook, we appear to have had a deranged killer who killed himself. What did his religion have to do with anything?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 14, 2013, 10:57:54 AM
I have a feeling the killer was one of yours.

That's all you operate off of isn't it. Feelings.

That's all well and good until you start labeling them as obvious truths and condemning others because they don't have the same feelings. Humans don't work like that. Well, some do, but never well.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 14, 2013, 11:05:58 AM
  Whether you knowledge it or not, you are the beneficiary of a form of government that could never have come into being left to atheist philosophy. 

   Wow, I disagree.  IMO, one of the greatest things about the United States of America is the founding based on the freedom of religion.  Mr. Harropson, don't you realize how much the persecution  Europeans put up with led to the freedoms the U.S. form of government is based on. It is one of the most important advances in world government that a society's  leaders learned not to choose and force a type of belief on it's people.

"There is an insidious campaign of false propaganda being waged today, to the effect that our country is not a Christian country but a religious one—that it was not founded on Christianity but on freedom of religion. It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by "religionists", but by Christians—not on religion, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."  Patrick Henry 

Woops. it looks like I got punked by David Barton.  Screwtape found this to be a misattribution which if true would discount it.  My apologies, and kudo's to Screwtape.

Edited to acknowledge a misattribution of a spurious quote.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Aaron123 on January 14, 2013, 11:12:32 AM
There are disasters that, quite clearly, don't have the signature of having removed the good effects of Christianity from public life.

In the case of the 1937 school explosion, how do you explain your god apparent absent?  You've said as much that it cannot be blamed on atheists.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: screwtape on January 14, 2013, 11:19:12 AM
"There is an insidious campaign ...worship here."  Patrick Henry

Wayne,

that is not a quote by Patrick Henry.  You are either lying or have been lied to. 
http://fakehistory.wordpress.com/2009/06/14/fake-quotations-patrick-henry-on-religionists/
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Patrick_Henry#Misattributed
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_did_Pratrick_Henry_say_this_nation_was_founded_not_by_religionists


I just knew I couldn't pull one over on that screwtape.

Well, explain to me, Wayne, how you or anyone else can tell your absurd premonitions and prophesies from anyone else's?  How can we tell who is right and who is wrong?  I think the fact that you have presented so much factually inaccurate information is reason enough to cast doubt on everything you say. 


Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 14, 2013, 11:34:27 AM
"There is an insidious campaign ...worship here."  Patrick Henry

Wayne,

that is not a quote by Patrick Henry.  You are either lying or have been lied to. 
http://fakehistory.wordpress.com/2009/06/14/fake-quotations-patrick-henry-on-religionists/
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Patrick_Henry#Misattributed
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_did_Pratrick_Henry_say_this_nation_was_founded_not_by_religionists

You got me screwtape. but I assure you that I believed it.  I'll have to take this one up with David Barton.


I just knew I couldn't pull one over on that screwtape.

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Well, explain to me, Wayne, how you or anyone else can tell your absurd premonitions and prophesies from anyone else's?  How can we tell who is right and who is wrong?  I think the fact that you have presented so much factually inaccurate information is reason enough to cast doubt on everything you say.

I'll edit the other post on which I posted the misattribution.  Good work screwtape.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: screwtape on January 14, 2013, 01:08:56 PM
You got me screwtape. but I assure you that I believed it.  I'll have to take this one up with David Barton.

Then I didn't get you, Wayne.  I helped you.  I corrected your understanding of the universe.  Now, what will you do with this new bit of information?  Will you consider the idea that Barton - and a whole host of other writers who are desperate to portray the US as a "xian nation" - might have included a whole lot more misinformation on the subject?  That they may be lying about that whole idea also?  Or will this just be a blip on your radar?

Let me ask, if it is untrue that the US was founded as a xian nation, do you want to believe that?  Do you want to believe what is true?  Or do you simply want your beliefs to be true?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 14, 2013, 04:25:17 PM
George Washington.....(glurge).

You are going to ask me to prove this story is true, I just know it. I can't.  ..... You may decide that it is entirely natural for a man to have four bullet holes in his coat with no injury....

Wayne, are you REALLY this disingenuous?  I've bolded the bit that - frankly - disgusts me about your responses.  You present a story that you admit you have NO way of proving - but sarcastically denigrate us for believing bullet holes "just happen"?  Sorry Wayne, it doesn't work like that - we have NO need to try and explain away a fantastic story about GW that you confess you have zero evidence for.

But HERE's an interesting thing, Wayne.  You believe this story - so you believe that your god will - somehow - ensure that bullets will not harm a person he particularly cares about.  So tell me, Wayne - why DIDN'T your god care about the people in the theatre?  Why DIDN'T he care about all those schoolchildren just a few weeks ago?
 
Their souls are with Him now.  It's not pleasant for us down here. My heart breaks for those family members.  If my premonition means anything at all it does mean that they were taken meaninglessly by victims of the outlawing of the inculcating of biblical morality in public that your precious atheism insists upon.  There is a consequence to over ruling biblical morality.  Atheism is the culprit.  You should be ashamed.

Quote
Your tale of GW makes it quite specific that your god can and will intervene in the world, and - quite specifically - stop bullets.  So if we DO accept your glurge here as true, Wayne, we have to ask searching and important questions about a god  who will intervene in some cases, but remain resolutely absent in others.

The scary thing. if you think about it, was that He is and was present. He's never absent. This isn't partilularly easy for me either.  A story I attributed to His sense of humor turned out to be not so funny in its fulfillment.  But, being the God that numbers our days he excersizes his will without our permission. 

"Job 1:21, “…Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return there. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away…”... “…Blessed be the name of the Lord.”   

He must have found the occasions at Aurora and Sandy Hook suitable to illustrate the consequences of what removing the Christian foundations from our public life are.  They are long term consequences that accumilate.  It has been fifty years since the stripping began and it has progressively (what a great term) gotten worse ever since.  If I were one of those grieving family members I'd be longing for Leave it to Beaver episodes to replace Southpark... and Batman just about now.

I mention in the introductions thread a dream I had that my leg was amputated and the opening was cauterised by a blowtorch.  That was a yawningly achingly unpleasant dream.  I did't know what to make of it, and I assumed that it was no good.  A few days later, I came upon this site.  So it turned out to be yet another slow burning joke.  Pretty funny, in a gaping hollow painful way.  What seemed at first to be for evil, now I see was for good because it was to be yet another premonition confirming that I'm on track, and that our discussions here are for a lack of a better term predestinated.

You must be beginning to hate me for saying it but yes, my amputated leg dream means I was directed here.  And if you want to let it really bug you you can put yourself in that dream, because it is you I ended up talking to.  It is you that were meant to read my story.  I really can't help it its just what happens.

It's also theraputic don't you think.  I needed that bloody stump cauterised.
When I first saw the name of the site: whywontgodhealamputees.com there was an uncanny connection to the title of my story: Why God Let Those Kids Die.
I know that, for now, I'm right where I belong. I'm enjoying it and in a very strange way I'm starting to get used to realising that when God tells a joke, it's a good one.

I can't resist telling another story I just heard the other day.  It is about John Newton and how he came to write the hymn Amazing Grace.  He was a slave ship captain and a raging alcoholic and given to debauchery.  On one of his binges aboard ship he got so drunk he fell overboard.  His men retrieved him by harpooning his leg and dragging him back aboard. I thought I knew the story but the harpoon thing I had never heard before last week.

So God saved the wretch and let him limp around with a bum leg the rest of his life as a reminder.  I read elsewhere that the tune he added his verses to was one eminating from the slaves as they sung in the hold of his ship.

Now, all of you wryly, sarcastically shockingly fly the pirate flag called whywontgodhealamputees.com and somehow I just washed aboard for part of your journey.  And though having a leg amputated and then lovingly attended to by you and that theraputic blow torch you use isn't exactly like being harpooned and dragged aboard,  but somehow in my delerious imagination, I derive some humor from the pain of it all.

I did a search and Amazing Grace has 475,000 results on youtube.  Ask John Newton what difference it makes if your leg heals while on earth or not.  His song gets airtime, his story endures and according to the blessed gospel, his soul, like those of the innocent children is alive with God.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-4NFvI5U9w

The Newton harpoon story, my dream of amputation, coming upon this site as I did all together makes my life absolutely fascinating.  God is present.  I can't prove it to you, but He can. Believe me.

Here's another delerious story with some like minded pain humor.  http://tinyurl.com/WaynesVirtualBaby
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: wheels5894 on January 14, 2013, 04:36:30 PM

They're souls are with him now.  It's not pleasant for us down here. My heart breaks for those family members.  If my premonition means anything at all it does mean that they were taken meaninglessly by victims of the outlawing of the inculcating of biblical morality in public that that your precious atheism supports.  There is a consequence to over ruling biblical morality.  Atheism is the culprit.  You should be ashamed.

Look, Wayne, you keep on insisting that the lack of prayer in schools brought about the school shooting despite the fact that you have been shown other ways of understanding it. So, please, now shown us how you worked your way to this conclusion. We have a shooting carried out by an apparently deranged killer. How can you come to the conclusion you have about this?

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: wright on January 14, 2013, 04:48:21 PM
There is a consequence to over ruling biblical morality.  Atheism is the culprit.  You should be ashamed.

As Anfauglir already said, with no evidence that atheism had anything to do with this or the other tragedies you want to ascribe to it, there is no reason for me or any other atheist to feel shame.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: kaziglu bey on January 14, 2013, 04:50:07 PM
<snipped for utter lunacy>

I can't believe that you continue to go on about how this Newtown school shooting is a result of a lack of morals stemming from atheism. It's truly unbelievable that you assert this nonsense. Your holy book could be called "Chronicles of the brutal God Yahweh and the stories of the people that he killed" and it would be totally accurate. Yet you consider a lack of this sadistic dictator to be responsible for more of the same happening? Please. Your credulity goes to eleven.

This sad, sad argument of yours utterly ignores what I pointed out here (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,24297.msg541098.html#msg541098). Churches and church property, and pious, worshiping people, are not magically protected by God. The number of church shootings was highest in 2012 that is has been in over a decade. This, all while people like you claim that a lack of God this, turning our backs on God that, is the cause of violence, even though religious places and people are not bulletproof.

Of course there is also no evidence, at all, that links a rise of secular humanistic values with increased violence. When Anders Breivik murdered a lot of people in a largely atheistic Norway, it was big news because that shit doesn't happen every day there. It's not every day in Norway that someone decides to kill for fun, but it's so commonplace in America, where roughly 85% of the people profess a religious faith.The most violent, ignorant, backwards, intolerant, racist states in the US are in the Bible Belt. The most horrific and sadistic governments in the world, where women are killed for being raped, and children are set on fire, are those that are run according to Holy Books. You can't overlook this yet you do anyways.

All throughout history it has been religion demanding cruelty, war, and bloodshed in the name of God, and implementing slavery, and fermenting bigotry and misogyny, and encouraging child abuse, and worshiping human sacrifice as every single person who calls themselves a christian does. It's always up to secular culture to teach religion how to behave.

If non-religious values, and the value of scientific inquiry and skepticism, had not arisen during the renaissance, Good True Christians like yourself would still be burning women who dare speak out against them men at the stake, and treating black people like cattle, and rejoicing at the sight of a native village wiped out by smallpox, and cultivating the culture of abject ignorance and servility and unquestioning faith that is likely to be the downfall of human civilization.

But sure, blame the atheists. We'll be your scapegoat. Throw your sins on us, because Jesus doesn't seem to ever be coming back to take them from you. Ignorant APE.

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 14, 2013, 07:20:31 PM
There is a consequence to over ruling biblical morality.  Atheism is the culprit.  You should be ashamed.

As Anfauglir already said, with no evidence that atheism had anything to do with this or the other tragedies you want to ascribe to it, there is no reason for me or any other atheist to feel shame.

No reason to take it personally wright except that if you agreed with what Madelyn Murray O'Hare did in removing the beneficial effects of Judeo Christian principles from public life, and to remanding them to the status of open ridicule as they are now in education, that is your evidence.  Were you here when I mentioned the manner in which Madelyn, and two of her family members died.  What kind of moral restraints did the office manager have when he mutilated them?  Christian ones?  Or Atheist ones?  Hey, thankfully you are not all killers, but your philosophy of denying God and the threat of eternal judgement leaves the door wide open for those others of you who have taken that logic to its  conclusion. Just to remind you, the office manager killed and mutilated them.  I ask you, why shouldn' t he have under the atheist philosophy?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 14, 2013, 07:29:23 PM

Look, Wayne, you keep on insisting that the lack of prayer in schools brought about the school shooting despite the fact that you have been shown other ways of understanding it. So, please, now shown us how you worked your way to this conclusion. We have a shooting carried out by an apparently deranged killer. How can you come to the conclusion you have about this?

I'll only add here that I use the removal of prayer as one example of the atheist initiatives. If you read my story I refer to the whole institutionalized animus against the founders faith and principles.  The rabid offense taken at the mention of christian principles has had its full effect over fifty years.  My premonition is like another 9/11 judgment that atheists can take the full blame for.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 14, 2013, 07:33:52 PM
  Their souls are with Him now.  It's not pleasant for us down here. My heart breaks for those family members.  If my premonition means anything at all it does mean that they were taken meaninglessly by victims of the outlawing of the inculcating of biblical morality in public that your precious atheism insists upon.  There is a consequence to over ruling biblical morality.  Atheism is the culprit.  You should be ashamed.

Two questions. It is easy for your god to sanction the death of 20 kids, so why hasn't he gotten me killed. If he is angry about this prayer thing and I'm one of the non-prayers, why have I survived 50 years as an atheist while a bunch of little kids, many of whom I'm sure attended church regularly, couldn't make it the third grade. The purpose of taking it out on them instead of someone like me is what?

Second. I'm a nice guy. I haven't done any of the bad things that you say have run rampant since '62. I've never owned a gun or a tear gas canister, I've never robbed a bank or beaten up a little old lady for her social security check of raped anyone of either sex or torn the label off of my mattress. Now I know that you think voting for Obama is pretty terrible, so I'm not completely sin free in your eyes, but I'm a lot closer than a banker or a Faux News commentator.

And I should mention that we can take a lot of flack from theists but your constant accusations that we, as atheists, are the cause for every ill in the country are somewhat irksome. Note that we are at best 20% of the population, and were a much smaller political force in the '60's, so there were a lot more people then just ourselves who wanted or agreed to that change. Now I assume you put Democrats in almost the same category as atheists, so I guess that would account for a lot of it, but there isn't really a need for you to continuously insult us at that level. If you want to make fun of someone for saying something you consider silly, that's fine. We do that to you.  My opinion of theists who believe at your level isn't any higher than your opinion of us, but I see no need to try drilling esoteric and hurtful taunts your way.

At least not yet. If you want to take the fun out of this conversation, be as damning as you want. We know how to throw our gloves off too.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 14, 2013, 07:46:18 PM
Let me ask you.  Did you agree with Madelyn Murray O'Hare's successful initiative?  Of course I'm going to continue to use her as an example because she is so emblematic of what this issue is about.  And her demise is also emblematic of its effects.  If you are not proud of what she did, say so, and I'll ease up on you.  If you aren't proud of what she did then tell me what other initiatives to destroy America's moral fiber you would disagree with so I can cut you some more slack.  I'm addressing you as an atheist group, I don't mean to get personal and call you APEs or anything, but you do need to defend the record of destruction your heroes have perpetrated.

Oh by the way, that is 475,000 hits on youtube, not on the internet.  How did John Newton do that?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 14, 2013, 08:03:42 PM
Let me ask you.  Did you agree with Madelyn Murray O'Hare's successful initiative?  Of course I'm going to continue to use her as an example because she is so emblematic of what this issue is about.  And her demise is also emblematic of its effects.  If you are not proud of what she did, say so, and I'll ease up on you.  If you aren't proud of what she did then tell me what other initiatives to destroy America's moral fiber you would disagree with so I can cut you some slack.  I'm addressing you as an atheist group, I don't mean to get personal and call you APEs or anything, but you do need to defend the record of destruction your heroes have perpetrated.

Madelyn Murray O'Hair (If you're going to hate someone, at least have the decency to spell their name right) was a troubled woman who happened to be an atheist. I have never considered her a role model or a wonderful person. I do not disagree with the school prayer thing at all, and I can assure you that far less intense individuals would have asked for the same thing soon thereafter if she had not started the ball rolling.

I did not mourn her disappearance/murder/whatever it was. I remember feeling bad that her son and granddaughter got caught up in the thing and died too.

I agreed with her atheism, but not her methods.

Please note that she was not involved with the removal of prayer from schools. That was via a different Supreme Court case. I'm not denying that she supported it, but she was not a part of the case that resulted in the banning of prayer. The reading of bible verses? Yep. That was directly due to her, but I've little doubt that it would have been banned soon thereafter because of the previous prayer ruling anyway.

I was a bit young to be aware of those particular cases, and they didn't change anything at my school anyway. I became more aware of her as a young adult when I discovered that not believing in god had a name and that some folks were quite vocal about it. If you'll remember, back then information did not flow quite so freely, given the lack of the Internet or anything remotely similar. I read magazines and newpaper articles and knew that she existed, and also knew that she was a bit over the top at times. I can assure you she was never a "hero" the way Christopher Hitchens or other currently prominent atheists are. And not all of that current crop have my total support.

I remember that when Ms. O'Hair died, I wasn't the least bit surprised. She had been living on the edge far too long.

In short, I pick my heros better than you pick my heros.

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 14, 2013, 08:06:23 PM
Oh by the way, that is 475,000 hits on youtube, not on the internet.  How did John Newton do that?

Wow, that's impressive.

This guy currently has over 1,192,000

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0)

How did he do it?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 14, 2013, 08:13:35 PM
One more thing, Wayne. Go to the main page and search for Madalyn Murray (leave off the O'Hair because it is often misspelled) and you will find that in the 4 plus years of this site she has been mentioned only 20 times. The search engine hasn't quite caught up with todays discussion, so it is a few times more than that. Todays posts have probably doubled it.

Does that sound like a hero to you?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 14, 2013, 08:22:19 PM

Madelyn Murray O'Hair (If you're going to hate someone, at least have the decency to spell their name right)


First off, I'm incapable of hating anybody. Without spell check I do my best with no disrespect.

You would do well to consider a picture as a whole.  She spread a rotten philosophy from a rotten heart and all of the effects are rotten.  She doesn't even have you for a friend because you understand her to be a bad actor, yet somehow you embrace her essence.  I would re evaluate if I were you.

As I was typing PP said:

Quote
One more thing, Wayne. Go to the main page and search for Madalyn Murray (leave off the O'Hair because it is often misspelled) and you will find that in the 4 plus years of this site she has been mentioned only 20 times. The search engine hasn't quite caught up with todays discussion, so it is a few times more than that. Todays posts have probably doubled it.

Does that sound like a hero to you?

I say you do well to distance yourself from her. And while you are at it maybe you should take a close look at your philisophical origins to detect whether what influenced your perspective didn't come from the same rotten place as hers.     
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 14, 2013, 08:33:58 PM
I say you do well to distance yourself from her. And while you are at it maybe you should take a close look at your philisophical origins to detect whether what influenced your perspective didn't come from the same rotten place as hers.   

I was an atheist before I ever heard of her. She had no influence on me. Your insistence that she did is plain wrong. That you have to distort atheism so much just to have a good argument against it does not bode well for you.

Added: My influence? I went to church. The silly stories cured me pretty quick. I, for one, don't fall for impossible claims. Don't sent me to school and have the teachers there tell me how the story of Achilles is a myth and then to church and tell me the story of Moses in the basket is true. Patently ridiculous.

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Dante on January 14, 2013, 08:34:58 PM
And your god murdering those children isn't rotten? And to call us amoral?


Maybe you should rethink your position.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: shnozzola on January 14, 2013, 08:36:39 PM
............what influenced your perspective didn't come from the same rotten place as hers.   

What a horrible thing to say.  You do not know us, you do not know why we believe the way we do, you do not know our life experiences.  Like so many, you have absolutely no idea what the atheist perspective is.  I'm glad the christians in my immediate family have a different way of practicing their christianity than you do.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 14, 2013, 08:37:40 PM

Wow, that's impressive.

This guy currently has over 1,192,000

How did he do it?

Whoops.
Now I get to make a profound clarification.
I have no idea how many hits any individual Amazing Grace youtube video has gotten, I didn't look at that.  I'm talking about 475,000 separate youtube videos with Amazing Grace in their titles.  There are pages upon pages, reams upon reams, ad infinitum (to exaggerate only to be absurdly happy to distinguish what I'm talking about from what you thought I was talking about.)  Do the search yourself and see how many pages you parse to give up finding the end of it all.  I picked a really good one for you though, you really don't need to watch them all to get my point.  You should see the movie that those clips are from.  I't good. 

Sorry PP I'm taking advantage of you here.  I love you for you for your effort.
You have to admit now, that is impressive. 
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 14, 2013, 08:40:26 PM
What a horrible thing to say.  You do not know us, you do not know why we believe the way we do, you do not know our life experiences.  Like so many, you have absolutely no idea what the atheist perspective is.  I'm glad the christians in my immediate family have a different way of practicing their christianity than you do.

Wayne, you said that, before coming here, you had imaginary discussions with an atheist in your head (or something like that). I'm guessing in real life we're a lot different.

And as for the video stuff. You have to give me accurate information before I can properly make fun of it. Be more careful next time.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: William on January 14, 2013, 08:48:02 PM
.... take a close look at your philisophical origins to detect whether what influenced your perspective didn't come from the same rotten place as hers.

Hitler's "philosophical origins" were Christian.

Jesus' "philosophical origins" were Yahweh.

Yahweh's "philosophical origins" were a bunch of bronze age goat herders ....
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 14, 2013, 08:48:55 PM
What a horrible thing to say.  You do not know us, you do not know why we believe the way we do, you do not know our life experiences.  Like so many, you have absolutely no idea what the atheist perspective is.  I'm glad the christians in my immediate family have a different way of practicing their christianity than you do.

Actually shnozzola as I said before, my attack is pointed at atheism not you in your idealised notions of what it means to you.  I do stand by the need for you to re evaluate for the sake of those slaughtered kids.  I make no apologies that their deaths can be attributed to Atheism deleterious effects in insisting Judeo Christian morals be expunged from the social fabric.  I'm hoping Atheists with good conscious would wake up to that reality.  I like you shchnoz, can I call you schnoz?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 14, 2013, 08:55:57 PM
What a horrible thing to say.  You do not know us, you do not know why we believe the way we do, you do not know our life experiences.  Like so many, you have absolutely no idea what the atheist perspective is.  I'm glad the christians in my immediate family have a different way of practicing their christianity than you do.

Wayne, you said that, before coming here, you had imaginary discussions with an atheist in your head (or something like that). I'm guessing in real life we're a lot different.
My imaginary atheist is much more cooperative.

Quote
And as for the video stuff. You have to give me accurate information before I can properly make fun of it. Be more careful next time.

I only wish I was smart enough to set that beauty up on purpose.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 14, 2013, 09:30:29 PM
.... take a close look at your philosophical origins to detect whether what influenced your perspective didn't come from the same rotten place as hers.

Hitler's "philosophical origins" were Christian.

Jesus' "philosophical origins" were Yahweh.

Yahweh's "philosophical origins" were a bunch of bronze age goat herders ....

 That is astute.  I mean it! I love that stuff.

By the time Christianity in all its bizarre and wicked religious forms got to America it had some serious baggage.  Somewhere in that mess was some mother singing Jesus loves me to her child and that child's children and the ones of those that learned enough not to listen to Satan's fake version went on to organise some effective Christian movements. 

When the pilgrims escaped the version enforced by kings in Europe they had a unique opportunity.  It was a society with no King but King Jesus.  Did you know that that was the official motto of the revolution? 

The Catholic form of Christianity held sway in large part because of it's (tyrannical) compatibility with monarchies.  It was all corruption because it was all tied to the political system.  Catholics were outcasts in America until they could prove that they were free of those well entrenched corruptions, but what made America's generic forms of Christianity fresh and new was freedom of religion, freedom of conscious.  They got to read the scriptures and come to their own conclusions and do it in an atmosphere without fear of persecution from the corrupt.  All the glories of the American experiment grew out of this fabulous fresh and free to discover what Jesus was all about.  And it worked.  It really worked.  They knew not to put other non Christian religions on par with Christianity and when someone said the word religion they would have blanched if you had mentioned a non christian one.  That was false religion of the devil.  Of course they fought among themselves as families often do, and it may have been nasty at times but they all had the Constitution protecting them so peace abounded, the gospel and the people spread across the land.  {Insert Glory Glory Hallelujah chorus here.}

Hitlers Germany knew to use Christianity just long enough to gain control and then like every other tyranny began jailing or executing the uncooperative clergy.  Same ol' Same ol'.
Not so America. 

Next chapter:
 Atheists infiltrate and let off a big fat stink bomb in the middle of everything and  that's where I'll  have to leave you hanging.  My eyes are watering it stinks so bad.
I have a constitution class to attend now.  I get my diploma tonight, actually it's a certificate but that's just a technicality.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 14, 2013, 09:41:17 PM
^^^When you want to put limits on good people who would do you no harm, who would advocate no violence, who would accept your existence peacefully, then what you seek is not freedom. It is tyranny, with you in charge.

Don't mix the two up. It makes the discussion somewhat difficult.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: William on January 14, 2013, 09:44:06 PM
Next chapter:
 Atheists infiltrate and let off a big fat stink bomb in the middle of everything and  that's where I'll  have to leave you hanging.  My eyes are watering it stinks so bad.

The truth is under no obligation to smell nice.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: wright on January 14, 2013, 10:57:36 PM
No reason to take it personally wright except that if you agreed with what Madelyn Murray O'Hare did in removing the beneficial effects of Judeo Christian principles from public life, and to remanding them to the status of open ridicule as they are now in education, that is your evidence.
 

I don't really take it personally. And since you haven't presented evidence to support your contention, I'm more puzzled than anything else. For instance, what do you see as "open ridicule" in education pertaining to "Judeo Christian principles"? Can you give some specific example?

Madalyn O'Hair hardly succeeded in removing "Judeo Christian principles from public life". She certainly played a part in stopping state-sanctioned promotion of religion in US public schools, but you're really giving her too much credit. Students are still free to pray on their own, bring and study their bibles in their free time, organize religious clubs, even proselytize to other students within limits. And that's just in the public schools. I find it amazing that you and some other Christians still don't think that's enough.

Were you here when I mentioned the manner in which Madelyn, and two of her family members died.  What kind of moral restraints did the office manager have when he mutilated them?  Christian ones?  Or Atheist ones?

I've been following this thread. She and her relatives were killed by a bad person, who could just as easily have been Christian as atheist. Neither, AFAIK, puts any real constraints on personal morality. If it were true that Christianity had a positive moral effect and atheism a negative one, then the US and much of Europe would be far better off in terms of domestic violence and Japan far worse. Instead, I see quite the opposite.

Hey, thankfully you are not all killers, but your philosophy of denying God and the threat of eternal judgement leaves the door wide open for those others of you who have taken that logic to its logical conclusion. Just to remind you, the office manager killed and mutilated them.  I ask you, why shouldn' t he have under the atheist philosophy?

He shouldn't have murdered them because virtually every functional society in human history has agreed that's unacceptable. A community of hunter-gatherers can't last with such maladaptive behavior running rampant, much less a modern nation of almost half a billion people. The vast majority of human beings manage to coexist without resorting to homicide, despite what the mass media might tell you in order to sell ad slots.



Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: JeffPT on January 14, 2013, 11:07:53 PM
I'm not being dismissive. I'm just not ready to speak for others capacity.  I don't think I'm that special, just that I beg a lot.  (pray)
What does you praying have anything to do with what happens?  I mean that.  Seriously.  You are asserting things again, yet you have no proof of it at all.  You only imagine it does.  As does every other person who does a rain dance, kneels toward Mecca, or pokes needles into voodoo dolls.  None of it works but you all think it does.  Prove to anyone that it works and show us the evidence.  So far, you've given nothing that a rational person would deem useful.     

My claims of unusual frequency for me are that I'm not surrounded by many people who have shown me their list of incidences.  Nothing scientific in my claim, it is a great queston though.
Then you admit that you could be wrong about it, and the frequency at which unusual things happen to you could be the same as everyone else, right? 

I get your point.  I can only assure you that if I was knowingly telling a lie that my nose would drop off, or grow or whatever.  I'm not kidding about any of it, and I can't prove it either.  It is a testimony that you will just have to make with what you will.  Thanks for entertaining it as far as you have.
I'm not insinuating that you're lying. I'm insinuating that you don't have any evidence for making the claims that you do and it seems to be a major trend with you.  You might really believe that you get more than the next guy, but your beliefs about it have nothing to do with whether or not its true. 

I express my desire for honesty and you need to insult it.  That's ok.
I'm sorry if you don't like it Wayne, but your position deserves ridicule.  It's ridiculous.  Ridiculous things should be ridiculed.  It might be the only way to get you to see just how dumb it is and take a second look at the thing you're asserting.  How else do you get through to someone who is immune to reasonable and logical argumentation, and blinded by faith?  If you've got another idea, I'm listening. 

I get your point about the gas.  The only thing you are missing is that if I interpreted the message accurately as God meant it for me to be interpreted because of God's specific way of communicating to me,  God may just be laughing at you right now.   
God isn't real Wayne.  And if God isn't real, then what do all three of the 'gas' instances lead up to?  Vague coincidence.  Not even serious coincidences, but vague ones.  I don't hear God laughing.  Neither do you. 

At some point you have to start at a neutral standpoint and ask yourself whether or not it's possible that all 3 of those things were completely unrelated.  Step outside of your God belief and examine whether or not God has to be real in order for all 3 of them to have happened.  What conclusion do you come to?  It's not difficult. 

You're take on them is completely without merit or proof.  You're just assuming they are connected for no apparent reason.  It is completely non-sensical. 

If you know bible stories, you know that miracles can be abstact.. donkeys talking bushes burning, birds feeding a man, manna from heaven, flaming tongues of fire.  It's all weird stuff.  Abstract, but to those to whom the message is meant, meaningful, and if I may say worthy of fully documenting for further scrutiny and edification.  Thanks for helping me with it.

I know bible stories.  And if you were to read stories about talking donkeys, burning bushes, people rising from the dead in any other book, you'd dismiss them out of hand as fictional tales.  The bible is just a book, Wayne.  It deserves no more respect or different consideration than any other book ever written, and furthermore, if you DO give it special consideration, then you are adding a personal bias to your assessment of one book over another, and that is special pleading.  A big, fat, juicy fallacy.   

Maybe.  Critics say they are dark and tend to give the villain more attention than the good guy, and the good guy is dark in his own right.  Think about that.  Maybe God thinks that's a bad combination, dark heroes fighting dark villians.  Try thinking like god and you may find the over all message is one that needs to be gassed.
A dark good guy?  Kinda like a 'good guy' God that lets children get slaughtered because it's somehow better for the universe if they die rather than live? 

A few million people have seen it and gone on with their lives like any other movie.  Why don't you think about that?  If God didn't want the movie made, would he have allowed it?  What about all the people he didn't scare out of the movie with a gas leak?  Considering that well over 80% of this country is Christian, it seems he let shit loads of Christians go in without a hitch.  Yet you, in your narcissistic world, believe you're special.  That you're something different.  I got news for you Wayne.  You're not.  You just think you are and it's embarrassing to see.  If you could see it from the outside... how you felt like you had to apologize for your prayers causing the gas leak... as if you're little self-imposed lunacy had caused the theater to shut down... it's absolutely stupid.  Really, it is.  As deeply deluded as you are, I think making fun of you is just about the only way to get a point across to you.  And even that has a slim chance. 

Do you actually believe that you think like God does, Wayne?  You ask me to try thinking like God as if that will let me see things differently, because I assume that's how you approach it.  You think like God.  I don't know if I've ever heard such an egocentric, narcissistic position in my life.  For someone to actually claim that they know how God thinks... It must feel real good to have convinced yourself that the most powerful being in the universe is looking out for you specifically and shitting on everyone else.  I bet you'd fight real hard to keep hold of that delusion, wouldn't you?  The problem is that it's not true.  Atheists are just as happy and healthy as everyone else.  If I were the God of the bible, I'd be hammering on the atheists.  Yet He's not.  Maybe He's not real after all? 

It's all fake. 

Go ahead. Maybe you do.  Don't misinterpret what I'm saying here.  The re-warder thing is a bible verse, if God was lying about it take it up with him.
If only he were real, maybe I could. 

You ask what I cannot provide beyond what you have already read.  If you don't see anything extraordinary in what I say happened, leave it at that.  I'm doing my best, and I'll try harder, if I can think of how.  I have a bunch of stories like this.  I think that they are worth writing, because I'm not writing fiction, I'm reporting incidences.  i hope you can forgive my my fascination for it all.
Your fascination comes from the fact that your agency detection system is way the hell out of whack.  You simply don't have the brain power or the knowledge about probability and statistics to overcome that imbalance and come to a different conclusion than the one you're coming to.  Strange things happen all the time to everyone.  As I said before, in 42 million minutes, you're going to get that.  You even admit that coincidences happen, yet when they happen in a way that seems to fit with your preconceived notions about the universe, you take those coincidences to mean something different.  Yet it's not proof of anything and you know it.  Only things that could not have happened without the intervention of a deity should be taken as some sort of evidence for God.  Nothing else.  Even if something as highly improbable as Adam Lanza's social security number being 143-98-2294 and your own phone number being 143-998-2294 is FAR more likely a pure coincidence than it is the hand of God.  Know why? Because there are millions of phone numbers and millions of social security numbers! 

But I find it profoundly believable not because I'm gullible, but because I know the God that is able to protect.  It's the God that stopped me short of a slaughter of cows on the road.  You may decide that it is entirely natural for a man to have four bullet holes in his coat with no injury, and so there  is nothing to report. The Indian, Washington, and I might beg to differ.

If you believe that your prayers affected a gas leak in a movie theater, then absolutely yes, you're gullible.  That's really stupid. 

Did you know that Adolph Hitler survived 16 assassination attempts by his own people?  What does that say to you about God?  Is that just a coincidence?  Could someone who believed that there was a god and that god was evil not point to this as absolute evidence of the supernatural?  If you asked good ol' Adolph before he died whether or not God was watching out for him, would you really be surprised if he said yes?   This same thing is all you're doing here.  Nothing more. 

I hope my responses so far have helped.  the rest of your post was pretty angry.  I'm not dismissing it, but I'll leave it for now.
Thank you for the time you spent.
Wayne
I was nicer than you deserve, as have been most of the people you've encountered here so far.  You've insulted our position many times and I deleted an entire paragraph at the end of my post before sending it, because it was angry ranting that frankly you have coming.  You're judgement of us stems from a long history of being told how evil and awful we are, yet you goad us on by calling atheists rude, amoral, and telling us that atheism caused the deaths of those children.  How do you expect us to react to that?  How would you react if we said your religion was responsible for their deaths?  A bit upset, right?  Shocking!  Yet you're nipping and pecking at us with sly little digs every so often with the idea that we mean old atheists are going to attack you for it and slide right on in to that stereotypical spot you already took us for, yet we restrain ourselves as best we can under the circumstances.  It won't change your opinion of us though, because you're too deeply deluded to think otherwise. You'll just go back to thinking of all of us as those bastards who took away my right to shove my religion down other people's throats!  Excuse me for thinking you're being a dick about it. 

And you harp on Madelyn Murry O'Hare as if she represents every one of us and frankly, it pisses me off.  She didn't believe in God.  That's the thing we all had in common with her.  That is the sum total of atheism.  You keep talking as if atheism is some sort of view on the world, but it's not.  It's just a big, fat, 'Nah' to your position.  It says nothing of what we DO want for this world.  And if you bothered to take the time to get to know any atheists and step outside of your stereotyping, you might find that we're better and nicer than just about all the Christians you know.  As far as M. M. O'Hare goes,  I agree with some of her positions but not all of them.  I'd assume you have something in common with theists like Fred Phelps, Jimmy Swaggart, and David Koresh, but you don't see me bashing you with those people, do you?  Do their actions speak for you?  If not, then cut the crap.   

Everything bad that you've been told about us is likely a lie and you've been led to believe it because your side isn't winning the intellectual battle; so making you hate us is easier than fighting our points on even terms.  It's been going on for 2000 years, and you are a prime example of the outcome.  You bought it, and it's just easier for you to think bad things about us than to work at finding out the truth.  You know we're bringing up good points.  You know we're smarter than you, and you're probably disconcerted on some level that the smarter people don't buy the bullshit God stuff. 

You're just wrong Wayne.  You really are.  God isn't real.  It's completely fake.  My advice to you is to take the time to explore what the other side is saying about God before dismissing it.  We have really good reasons to think that God isn't real, and if you haven't explored them, then what makes you think you can claim you're right?  Many of the people here are ex-Christians, meaning they've seen both sides of the question and decided where the truth was.  Maybe you should do the same at some point.  You're intimately familiar with one side of a very 2 sided argument.  Stop mentally masturbating with Fox News and Glen Beck and start listening to the other side of the argument. 
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Willie on January 14, 2013, 11:33:10 PM
This guy currently has over 1,192,000

Oops, you left out a few zeroes. That video has over 1.1 billion hits, not 1.1 million.

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 14, 2013, 11:42:57 PM
No reason to take it personally wright except that if you agreed with what Madelyn Murray O'Hare did in removing the beneficial effects of Judeo Christian principles from public life, and to remanding them to the status of open ridicule as they are now in education, that is your evidence.  Were you here when I mentioned the manner in which Madelyn, and two of her family members died.  What kind of moral restraints did the office manager have when he mutilated them?  Christian ones?  Or Atheist ones?  Hey, thankfully you are not all killers, but your philosophy of denying God and the threat of eternal judgement leaves the door wide open for those others of you who have taken that logic to its  conclusion. Just to remind you, the office manager killed and mutilated them.  I ask you, why shouldn' t he have under the atheist philosophy?

This needs to be expounded on, even further than what Wright just said. This will sound mean. But it is intended to bring you to your senses. You're clearly not a bad person. But you have a shortage of good thoughts.

What do you imagine an atheist philosophy to be? Do you imagine that not believing in a god is the basis for all sorts of neer-do-well activities, intended to culminate in the complete and total destruction of all that is good? Do you really have to caste us in such a light? Is this inherent sordidness required before you can really truly put us in our place?

It is past bedtime in prisons, to I must not be in one because I am typing instead. My atheism is not a gateway drug to duplicitous behavior and all around a**holeness. It is merely a view of the world that I trust is true. It does not guide my behavior. Other than it keeps me off your doorstep offering pamphlets. It does not determine my moral qualities. I too am accountable for being a human being. I too am to be arrested if I steal or harm or swindle. I too am expected to contribute to my society and add to its value, rather than detract from it. I too enjoin with others when injustice and/or selfishness threatens innocent individuals or groups. And I too can be trusted with your loved ones and friends in any circumstance.

Your insistence that atheism=immorality condemns you. Not legally. But morally. Because if you insist that such a thing is true, you disqualify yourself from being a sane member of society and join the rabid ones for whom freedom means only agreeing to agree with them or else. Your inability to picture any human not like you as a member of your society makes you as evil as a KKK member, as inflexible as Westboro Baptist Church, as uninformed as a Fox News viewer. You, in your search for freedom, are binding your own hands behind your own back and proclaiming yourself free. You are covering your mouth with duct tape and mumbling that you are the only one speaking clearly. You are pouring cement around your own feet and complaining that others won't let you float. You are lighting the bonfire under your own feet thinking that one nation, under god, ought to be too hot for others to survive in. You have sprung a trap on yourself, and are laughing fiendishly at the fools that dared underestimate you. And dying at the same time.

Do I have a philosophy. Probably I do. But it is steeped in knowledge, compassion, honesty, caring and sharing, not the selfishness required to insist that others do everything my way. I do not insist that every thought that does not match mine is communistic or darwinish or stinky or despicable. I understand that a monoculture of any social order will be so vulnerable to even the most trivial of enemies that its lifespan is measured in weeks. And I value the survival of my species, not the enslavement of it.

I understand that tiny worlds such as yours can never be as beautiful as ones that include real stuff. I understand that tiny worlds such as yours have little room for other ideas, by default. And I understand why tiny worlds such as yours fit easily on the back shelf of history.

To this point, virtually all of your arguments have been against an imagined alignment of evil forces. Just as you make up an atheist friend to talk to who, presumably agrees with you by the end of every argument, you too make up who you are. You pretend the width and breadth of your intellect; you pretend the level of wisdom; you pretend the content of your history; you pretend the perfection of your future. And then you ask us to suffer for you.

You've ignored far too much of what we've said to ever convince me that you've paid attention to anything, anywhere. If these exchanges we've had with you typify your approach to life, then you don't have the ability to realize that you don't have the ability. As I have always said, 20,000,000 NASCAR fans can't be right, so they watch races instead. Please buy a lifetime pass.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 14, 2013, 11:45:06 PM
This guy currently has over 1,192,000

Oops, you left out a few zeroes. That video has over 1.1 billion hits, not 1.1 million.

Well, I was on my iPad and the screen isn't that big.  ;D

Thanks for the correction. It proves you have Amazing Grace. And Gangnam Style!
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 15, 2013, 12:58:54 AM


You're just wrong Wayne.  You really are.


I read the whole thing and truly appreciate your passioned position.  For my part i will respectfully, disagree.
Thanks again for the time you have spent and for reading my testamonies of God's direction.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: wright on January 15, 2013, 01:18:55 AM
FWIW Wayne, I admire your persistence. I'm no closer to agreeing with you than I was before, but I certainly wouldn't have lasted as long as you have, were I the only atheist answering a bunch of Christians.

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: DVZ3 on January 15, 2013, 01:30:50 AM
Wayne reminds me of none other than a male version of my mother at times.  My mom, who has been a Christian most of her adult life (Christians got a hold of her mind after she was first divorced, go figure) refuses to believe I could possibly be an atheist. I should add here that my mom is a very smart women but is surprisingly naive and gullible, especially when it comes to cob-webbing mundane things deemed by her to be not coincidences, but signs from god. Every time she starts doing that with me I start to smirk... Can't help it.

But even when I was old enough to finally openly admit to her that I didn't believe the whole bible thing as she did she was very upset. To this day she still doesn't really get it but is understanding. She'll say things like "but you can't be an atheist! You're such a loving, caring, sensitive, and compassionate person... You just can't be!" as if it took an ancient book to bequeath these human traits.  Or maybe it was by pure, unimaginably large, statistical mix of dice in the DNA helix.  ;)

Sadly, she has been indoctrinated to think this by the church and other Christian zombies who can't ven think alike among their own kind.  :-\ ; I know this because I remember sitting at church while the pastor would totally misrepresent atheism as I understand today outside looking in.

Sadly moreover, I have to sit and see all the Facebook god type posts as well as all the Christian pro-gun bs after such tragedy as this last one. All the while this evil atheist, liberal wants to see some sort of gun control moving forward.  I told my mom and other Christians... You want a sign for gun control!? How bout a mass shooting of kids happening in none other than a town called "Newtown"....... In "New Town" folks...

Blind hypocrites, blind hypocrites, blind hypocrites...

I now understand why in the bible the character Jesus says "forgive them father, for they know not what they do!"

.... And they still don't.  :-\



Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 15, 2013, 01:37:23 AM
Madalyn O'Hair hardly succeeded in removing "Judeo Christian principles from public life". She certainly played a part in stopping state-sanctioned promotion of religion in US public schools, but you're really giving her too much credit. Students are still free to pray on their own, bring and study their bibles in their free time, organize religious clubs, even proselytize to other students within limits. And that's just in the public schools. I find it amazing that you and some other Christians still don't think that's enough.

I use MMOH like I do school prayer.  They are emblematic of a wide range of Atheists and their initiatives that have purposefully driven out the judeo christian restraints against... Killing in this most stark example.  I wish I could show you the graphs here that show the rapid rise in crime, divorce, venereal disease and other factors after being stable prior to 62 skyrocketed in the years after.  All to fulfill the atheist amoral agenda people like your pioneer MMOH selfishly promoted.



Quote
He shouldn't have murdered them because virtually every functional society in human history has agreed that's unacceptable. A community of hunter-gatherers can't last with such maladaptive behavior running rampant, much less a modern nation of almost half a billion people. The vast majority of human beings manage to coexist without resorting to homicide, despite what the mass media might tell you in order to sell ad slots.
Did you consider the pre 1962 American society a functional society?  If I showed you a graph that proved skyrocketing crime disease and divorce after Atheists got their way would that change your opinion?  Or will you hold to your guns no matter who is harmed by an empty godless philosophy?

Those Kids died because of what you atheists foisted on the american public.  I'm not  going to let you off the hook on this.  If you continue to deny that Judeo Christian ethic restrains evil, then you have decided to lie to yourself, and endanger even more children.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 15, 2013, 01:47:51 AM
20,000,000 NASCAR fans can't be right, so they watch races instead. Please buy a lifetime pass.

I'm a car guy that never watches nascar. Other than that, everything else you said made about as much sense and applies to me just about as much.  I'm not sure but did you just try to insult me personally?  I might have missed something.

Good night.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: nogodsforme on January 15, 2013, 01:49:55 AM
Wayne,
You cannot make someone believe something. And you should not try to force people to believe something by threatening them with discrimination or persecution. Because then people will just lie, say they believe in god, and you won't be able to tell the difference. So what is the point? 

If the founders of the US had wanted this country to be a theocracy based on Christianity (or any other religion) they would have said so, clearly in the Constitution. You would not have to dig and search for obscure references and try to infer what they might have meant. It would be right there in the Constitution, the law of the land.

If the bible was supposed to be in the laws, or if the 10 commandments was supposed to be in the laws, they would have written that. They would have written, "for more details, look in the bible" or "read the 10 commandments". If it was important to have bibles in all the schools, and they wanted that to be in the law, they would have written that.

The founders never put any of that into the laws of the US.  Instead, they wrote the bill of rights where the first thing they said was no religion in the government. No religious test. No established state religion. No religious discrimination. And they did not need any atheists telling them to do that.

They were not stupid men, although they were products of their time. They therefore got some things wrong (discrimination against women, and slavery, but the bible is okay with both of those). However, on the no religion in government thing, they were very clear. And very right.

And I became an atheist as a result of being raised in a strict fundamentalist religion that made no sense. I had never heard of this murdered woman you keep talking about.

FACT: Crime rates are lower in the less religious countries of the world. Like France, Japan, Denmark and Sweden.
FACT: Crime rates, divorce rates, poverty and teen pregnancy rates are lower in the less religious states in the US. Like Minnesota and Massachusetts. Compared to Arkansas and Texas.

Nobody is stopping anyone from praying in the US-- the state just can't make you do it.. More bible reading obviously does not make a society better--the US is way more religious than any other industrialized country. The US needs less praying, fewer guns and more rational thinking.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 15, 2013, 02:11:10 AM
Do you realize that only FIVE states required prayer in school? Only five. It was allowed in only 25 others. How does the elimination of mandatory prayer in five states a crime wave make? Do you have statistics that show crime to be a horrid problem in 20 states, somewhat of a problem in 25, and no problem at all in five?

No you don't. You have only that picture in your mind of an instant transformation from tranquility to Mr. Rogers violent neighborhood. Like with your premonitions, you have only what you interpret to be true, not what is actually true. Everything you know comes from christian propaganda, not facts. And you are excoriating us as the guilty party even as you ignore revelation after revelation from us.

And why is crime falling if we're still not praying. Not in every category, but in most of them. Why is that? Why is violent crime down? Why is robbery down? How can that be. We're still not praying.

Be sure you don't read the link I provided earlier in this thread that makes a case for lead in paint and gasoline poisoning our population. And especially don't read the part where the increase, and later decrease, in crime matches increases and decreases in lead levels. The last thing we would want you to have is valid information that you could take into consideration. That would hurt your head.

I say again. You want things to be simple. And you insist on being right. Neither is realistic. Its fine when you look at the world in ways that is right for you. But it is not fine when you look at the world and insist it be right for me as well.

I am not your enemy. Your insistence that I be, that all who are not just like you be, does not bode well for our future. I'm not talking about this web site. I'm talking about our country and the world. Because you are not the only one, and many places where such opposition exists have armed folks. Hating each other. And you and me and everyone else. And someday it is going to hurt.

Don't worry. I'll be among the first to go. I'm too nice a guy to ever shoot back.


Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on January 15, 2013, 05:12:44 AM
You believe this story - so you believe that your god will - somehow - ensure that bullets will not harm a person he particularly cares about.  So tell me, Wayne - why DIDN'T your god care about the people in the theatre?  Why DIDN'T he care about all those schoolchildren just a few weeks ago?
 

Their souls are with Him now.  It's not pleasant for us down here. My heart breaks for those family members.  If my premonition means anything at all it does mean that they were taken meaninglessly……

WHILE YOUR GOD SAT BY AND DID NOTHING.

THAT is the crucial point I take from your tale, Wayne.  That you are 100% clear that your god CAN and WILL deflect bullets, and who therefore chose NOT to intervene for the children.

You say its "my fault" for producing an environment where the killer was free to do what he can do.  That I chose not to act, and this led to the deaths.  Then your god is exactly as guilty as I am for their deaths - it likewise chose not to act, and so they died.

….. the inculcating of biblical morality in public that your precious atheism insists upon.  There is a consequence to over ruling biblical morality.  Atheism is the culprit.  You should be ashamed.

So you assert.

I claim, by contrast, that the fault lies in the failure of self-professed Christians to correctly follow the teachings of their god.  The millions upon millions who do not correctly practice the faith that god clearly laid out for them….you know, the way that YOU practice it.  God is angry at THEM, not at the athesists, and THAT is why all the bad things are happening….note that this also explains why "bad things" happen to "Christians" so much, and why so many atheists live rich and happy lives.

So that's MY assertion, Wayne, as to why all the bad stuff happened.  Can you give us one single shred of evidence as to why your chosen interpretation is more rational than mine?  Especially since, as I've pointed out, my explanation provides more answers than yours?

I mention in the introductions thread a dream I had that my leg was amputated and the opening was cauterised by a blowtorch.  That was a yawningly achingly unpleasant dream.  I did't know what to make of it, and I assumed that it was no good.  A few days later, I came upon this site. 

Interesting.  How exactly DID you "come upon" this site?  Are you in the slightest bit open to the suggestion that your random dream, rattling around in your subconscious, made you more open to spotting the word "amputee" for the next few days?

You see, Wayne, if an idea gets put into your red,  then you'll find that red will stay within your consciousred, and you'll find red you spot that red a lot more red than you red bered.

Bet you you'll see a lot more red cars today than you normally do.  Is that because I changed reality to make more red cars pass you?  Or because a thought in your head makes you more aware of concepts related to it?

And if you want to let it really bug you you can put yourself in that dream, because it is you I ended up talking to.  It is you that were meant to read my story.  I really can't help it its just what happens.

Doesn't bug me Wayne.  Your persistent dodging and refusal to address the meat of the questions you are asked means that you are doing an excellent job of driving me further from your god.  Is that the effect you wanted to produce in me?  Was that the effect your GOD wanted you to produce when he "sent you" to me?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: wheels5894 on January 15, 2013, 06:30:35 AM

Look, Wayne, you keep on insisting that the lack of prayer in schools brought about the school shooting despite the fact that you have been shown other ways of understanding it. So, please, now shown us how you worked your way to this conclusion. We have a shooting carried out by an apparently deranged killer. How can you come to the conclusion you have about this?

I'll only add here that I use the removal of prayer as one example of the atheist initiatives. If you read my story I refer to the whole institutionalized animus against the founders faith and principles.  The rabid offense taken at the mention of christian principles has had its full effect over fifty years.  My premonition is like another 9/11 judgment that atheists can take the full blame for.

Thanks for the reply, but I still quite get how you have made the connection. What you call a premonition appears not to have included in it any details that might include shooting so it was clearly nothing that might have been helpful in avoid the incident. However....

Earlier in the thread you will have seen statistics showing that as a country become less religious crime tends to fall and violent crime in particular. Hence the incidence of violent crime in Europe -and especially the less religious countries like the UK, Norway, Sweden etc. Now this doesn't mean there are not the very rare incidents of shootings in these places but they are so rare that they can be easily remembered. The cause is usually a person with mental health problems who manages to get hold of a gun though, of course, in Noway recently it was a man with very extreme political tendencies. In France the most recent case was caused by a very extreme Islamic person.

Now, although in the USA official prayers are not said in schools - after all how many religions would insist on theirs being said so as to be fair? - the USA remains a very religious country. Just look at the results of opinion polls for this. Yet there are far more of these shooting incidents in the USA than anywhere else in the world. How on earth do you ignore all the other facts - the degree of religiosity of the population, the free availability of guns and the lack of affordable mental health care - and focus solely on prayers in school. What is your thinking that does this?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Add Homonym on January 15, 2013, 06:56:54 AM
Are we there, yet?

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: wheels5894 on January 15, 2013, 07:36:11 AM
Are we there, yet?

I rather doubt it - though I think we have established, against Wayne's views that his so-called premonitions are just him looking back well after events and seeing connections.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on January 15, 2013, 08:41:26 AM
I wish I could show you the graphs here that show the rapid rise in crime, divorce, venereal disease and other factors after being stable prior to 62 skyrocketed in the years after. 

That's fine - just give us the ISBN of the textbook they are published in, or the issue number of the particular journal, if they aren't freely available on the web.  Easily done, you know.

If I showed you a graph that proved skyrocketing crime disease and divorce after Atheists got their way would that change your opinion? 

Absolutely.  The moment you show me a graph that proves causation between the two factors, then yes.  Of course, if all you are asserting is correlation, then no, of course not.  Because you may as well then say that it was Russia's agreement to dismantle its missiles in Cuba that led to the rises in bad stuff.

So please, please, go ahead.  SHOW us this graph that proves causation between those two things.  You know, like we have been asking you for several pages now.

Oh, just one more thing:

Those Kids died because of what you atheists foisted on the american public.  I'm not  going to let you off the hook on this. 
Those kids died because an omnipresent god who specialises in stopping bullets elected to stand back and do nothing.  I'm not going to let you off the hook on this.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: naemhni on January 15, 2013, 08:48:38 AM
I'm talking about 475,000 separate youtube videos with Amazing Grace in their titles.  There are pages upon pages, reams upon reams, ad infinitum

"And this is my point:"
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: naemhni on January 15, 2013, 09:17:55 AM
I use MMOH like I do school prayer.  They are emblematic of a wide range of Atheists and their initiatives that have purposefully driven out the judeo christian restraints against... Killing in this most stark example.

I see no such restraint in scripture, at least not really.  True, there is "Thou shalt not kill", but on the other hand, scripture also prescribes the death penalty for just about everything except jaywalking.  And that's probably only because there were no traffic lights back then.

Quote
I wish I could show you the graphs here that show the rapid rise in crime, divorce, venereal disease and other factors after being stable prior to 62 skyrocketed in the years after.

You can't -- crime has actually been declining for the most part since then (homicide, for example, is currently at a forty-year low) -- but even if you could, it wouldn't matter.  Such a graph would show only correlation, not causation.

Quote
Those Kids died because of what you atheists foisted on the american public.  I'm not  going to let you off the hook on this.

I'm not sure how much you follow this kind of thing in the news, so if I'm telling you something you already know, please excuse me.

Various freethought organizations across the United States put up various signs, billboards, and the like advertising their viewpoint.  (They're most prominent during the holiday season, but they do appear the rest of the year as well.)  They're routinely vandalized and stolen.  This past holiday season, of all the various signs that the Freedom From Religion Foundation put up, just under half were damaged or destroyed.  In one case, the vandalism was carried out under the observation of a television news crew; when the vandal was done destroying the sign, the news crew interviewed him on camera and broadcast the interview.  The FFRF contacted the police, who declined to take any action.  I have yet to hear of any Christian voicing any objection of any kind, let alone attempting to help in any way.

Conversely, in June of 2011, a couple of churches were vandalized by people who spray-painted freethought images and slogans all over them.  The freethought community, upon hearing of this, organized a fundraising drive and took up a collection to help the churches clean up the graffiti and repair the damage.  About $3,000 was raised in just the first day of the drive.

Don't try to claim that religion (Abrahamic or otherwise) has a monopoly on ethics or compassion.  It doesn't.  Not even close.

Quote
If you continue to deny that Judeo Christian ethic restrains evil, then you have decided to lie to yourself, and endanger even more children.

If the "Judeo Christian ethic restrains evil", then why are Christians disproportionately represented in our prison population?  Indeed, why are atheists only 0.2% of the prison population, even though we constitute approximately ten percent of the nation's population?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Dante on January 15, 2013, 09:20:15 AM

Those Kids died because of what you atheists foisted on the american public.  I'm not  going to let you off the hook on this. 
Those kids died because an omnipresent god who specialises in stopping bullets elected to stand back and do nothing.  I'm not going to let you off the hook on this.

This is the thing that so bothers me about the crap Wayne is spouting.

His god, if omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, should have the balls to unambigously make its presence known, if the secular movement is such a percieved slight. Instead, it relies on believers interpreting actions of men and nature as "god's will". The believers have to make all kinds of excuses as to why their god's presence is hidden, why its actions cannot be differentiated from natural or human-caused events.

And before Wayne starts on the free will argument, let me ask this; did those children at Sandy Hook have free will? Did the teachers? Obviously, according to Wayne, the shooter did not have any free will whatsoever, as he was all part of his god's omniscient plan to show all us heathens what happpens when we maintain a seperation of church and state.

So what gives, Wayne? Why can't your omnipotent god make a point without ending the lives of schoolchildren? Why did your god take away the free will of Lanza? And why do you suppose, since Lanza was an agent of your dark lord, that he would be a rational atheist?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 15, 2013, 10:27:43 AM
Quote from: pianodwarf link=t
[quote author=WayneHarropson link=topic=23483.msg542140#msg542140 date=1358213860
I'm talking about 475,000 separate youtube videos with Amazing Grace in their titles.  There are pages upon pages, reams upon reams, ad infinitum
[/quote]

Is that how you chose which religion to believe? Based on YouTube statistics? I did. That's why I'm a Russian DashCamist. Here, watch some of these and join me. (warning: stupid, oft times gory and actually pretty bad. Just like religion. Don't actually watch these. I just wanted to demonstrate my point)

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=russian+dash+cam+compilation&oq=russian+dash+&gs_l=youtube.1.1.0l10.128.4724.0.8006.21.13.4.4.7.0.194.1222.4j9.13.0...0.0...1ac.1.E6NgwqwjfYo (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=russian+dash+cam+compilation&oq=russian+dash+&gs_l=youtube.1.1.0l10.128.4724.0.8006.21.13.4.4.7.0.194.1222.4j9.13.0...0.0...1ac.1.E6NgwqwjfYo)
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 15, 2013, 10:42:13 AM
FWIW Wayne, I admire your persistence. I'm no closer to agreeing with you than I was before, but I certainly wouldn't have lasted as long as you have, were I the only atheist answering a bunch of Christians.

Thank you wright.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: wheels5894 on January 15, 2013, 10:48:15 AM
Quote from: pianodwarf link=t
[quote author=WayneHarropson link=topic=23483.msg542140#msg542140 date=1358213860
I'm talking about 475,000 separate youtube videos with Amazing Grace in their titles.  There are pages upon pages, reams upon reams, ad infinitum

Is that how you chose which religion to believe? Based on YouTube statistics? I did. That's why I'm a Russian DashCamist. Here, watch some of these and join me. (warning: stupid, oft times gory and actually pretty bad. Just like religion. Don't actually watch these. I just wanted to demonstrate my point)

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=russian+dash+cam+compilation&oq=russian+dash+&gs_l=youtube.1.1.0l10.128.4724.0.8006.21.13.4.4.7.0.194.1222.4j9.13.0...0.0...1ac.1.E6NgwqwjfYo (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=russian+dash+cam+compilation&oq=russian+dash+&gs_l=youtube.1.1.0l10.128.4724.0.8006.21.13.4.4.7.0.194.1222.4j9.13.0...0.0...1ac.1.E6NgwqwjfYo)
[/quote]

Thanks for the links, PP. I think we ought to get this new religion going - by the look its more fun than most religions!
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 15, 2013, 11:09:22 AM
I have read through and intend to reply to some of your thoughtful remarks. 

During this brief intermission may I entertain you with a statement by John Quincy Adams, who said:

In the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior. The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 15, 2013, 11:15:20 AM
And again:
"The cultivation of the religious sentiment represses licentiousness . . . inspires respect for law and order, and gives strength to the whole social fabric. Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens."

Daniel Webster
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: wheels5894 on January 15, 2013, 11:17:43 AM
Another from Adams
Quote
Religion, charity, pure benevolence, and morals, mingled up with superstitious rites and ferocious cruelty, form in their combination institutions the most powerful and the most pernicious that have ever afflicted mankind.
journal, Nov. 22, 1831 (http://www.notable-quotes.com/a/adams_john_quincy.html)
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on January 15, 2013, 11:18:12 AM
...the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior....

Founding Fathers kept slaves too, as sanctioned by the Bible, despite their protestations that "all men are created equal".  Ergo, we should all be allowed to keep slaves, yes?

You're right Wayne, it IS entertaining - almost everything you post gives me a good old belly laugh!
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Anfauglir on January 15, 2013, 11:23:45 AM
Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens.

Wayne, why do you persist in insulting all the members here?

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: wheels5894 on January 15, 2013, 11:24:28 AM
Of course, John Quincey Adams was a supporter for the abolition of slavery despite the bible's insistence that slavery was OK and even giving rules to those who own slaves.

no one has ever satisfactorily explained why the rules in the bible can be ignored - unless it was pressure of popular opinion of those who religion wasn't so strong. A quaker led the war against slavery in the UK  for example.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jaimehlers on January 15, 2013, 11:31:27 AM
During this brief intermission may I entertain you with a statement by John Quincy Adams, who said:

In the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior. The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.
Assuming he actually said that, I don't think that it has any real relevance.  For one thing, the Declaration was on July 4; Christmas is celebrated on December 25.  My brother, who's birthday is December 19, has a closer temporal link than the Declaration of Independence.  For another, while the Declaration attributes the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness to an unnamed "Creator", and states that governments are instituted to secure those rights, it's more than a stretch to claim that these are a reference to Christianity, or that somehow human government is dependent on Christianity.  For one thing, governments existed before Christianity ever did; before Judaism ever did, for that matter.  For another, you could just as easily substitute some other religion instead of Christianity for this "Creator" and have it be just as true - making it an effectively meaningless statement, since it can mean anything.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 15, 2013, 11:48:22 AM
Adams also said, in a letter to Jefferson:

“They all believe that great Principle which has produced this boundless universe, Newton’s universe and Hershell’s universe, came down to this little ball, to be spit upon by Jews. And until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.”

Isn't quote mining fun!
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 15, 2013, 11:53:56 AM
And Jefferson said this (My bold):

“The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: wheels5894 on January 15, 2013, 01:04:04 PM
James Madison

Quote
Among the features peculiar to the political system of the United States, is the perfect equality of rights which it secures to every religious sect.
James Madison, letter to Jacob de la Motta, August 1820

So Madison wasn't looking for a Christian foundation of the USA
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: screwtape on January 15, 2013, 01:08:21 PM
I'll only add here that I use the removal of prayer as one example of the atheist initiatives.

Wayne,

I've corrected you on this already.  Most of the most influential school prayer suits[1] have been brought by religious minorities - jews, jehovah's witnesses, unitarians, and catholics.  Please stop repeating this lie.
 1. ie, the supreme court cases that established the precedence
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: wheels5894 on January 15, 2013, 01:08:44 PM
Oh, and John Adams - speaking rather, I think of something other than a Christian god

Quote
It is the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons, to worship the SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshiping GOD in the manner most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; or for his religious profession or sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct others in their religious worship.
John Adams, Thoughts on Government, 1776
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 15, 2013, 01:15:02 PM
James Madison

Quote
Among the features peculiar to the political system of the United States, is the perfect equality of rights which it secures to every religious sect.
James Madison, letter to Jacob de la Motta, August 1820

So Madison wasn't looking for a Christian foundation of the USA

Madison meant Christian sect.  He also said:I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.
During this brief intermission may I entertain you with a statement by John Quincy Adams, who said:

In the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior. The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.
Assuming he actually said that, I don't think that it has any real relevance.  For one thing, the Declaration was on July 4; Christmas is celebrated on December 25.  My brother, who's birthday is December 19, has a closer temporal link than the Declaration of Independence.  For another, while the Declaration attributes the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness to an unnamed "Creator", and states that governments are instituted to secure those rights, it's more than a stretch to claim that these are a reference to Christianity, or that somehow human government is dependent on Christianity.  For one thing, governments existed before Christianity ever did; before Judaism ever did, for that matter.  For another, you could just as easily substitute some other religion instead of Christianity for this "Creator" and have it be just as true - making it an effectively meaningless statement, since it can mean anything.

The lady gentleman doth protest too much, methinks.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 15, 2013, 01:21:22 PM
I'll only add here that I use the removal of prayer as one example of the atheist initiatives.

Wayne,

I've corrected you on this already.  Most of the most influential school prayer suits[1] have been brought by religious minorities - jews, jehovah's witnesses, unitarians, and catholics.  Please stop repeating this lie.
 1. ie, the supreme court cases that established the precedence

And after acknowledging what screwtape has said, tell us why you think the stopping of prayer suddenly changed the whole country when before the ruling prayer was only required in five states, and only permitted, as an option, in 25 others. Shouldn't there have been high crime in the non-praying states already? Shouldn't high crime rates have already been optional in those 25 where prayer was optional?

That last sentence is a joke. Don't take it seriously and make up yet another answer, please.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 15, 2013, 01:22:48 PM
Oh, and John Adams - speaking rather, I think of something other than a Christian god

Quote
It is the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons, to worship the SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshiping GOD in the manner most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; or for his religious profession or sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct others in their religious worship.
John Adams, Thoughts on Government, 1776

On the contrary, there is no other  SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe than Jesus Christ.  You only hope you can serparate them, though I don't know why you'd bother if none exists.  You are not going to win a war of quotes of the founding fathers to prove there is no God.  I think you know that.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: screwtape on January 15, 2013, 01:29:44 PM
I use MMOH like I do school prayer.  They are emblematic of a wide range of Atheists and their initiatives that have purposefully driven out the judeo christian restraints against... Killing in this most stark example.

Wayne, what "atheist" initiatives are you talking about?  Please be specific.

How have they "driven out" J-C constraints?  Be specific.

What J-C constraints are you talking about?  Be specific.


I wish I could show you the graphs

Why can't you?

...here that show the rapid rise in crime, divorce, venereal disease and other factors after being stable prior to 62 skyrocketed in the years after.

You speak as if there were nothing else going on in the 60s.  Don't you think there were other possible cultural factors? 

All to fulfill the atheist amoral agenda people like your pioneer MMOH selfishly promoted.

What is the agenda?  be specific.

What is amoral about it?  Be specific.

Please state the difference between amoral and immoral.


Did you consider the pre 1962 American society a functional society?

In 1962 American society was functional but there were many problems that you cannot blame on atheists.  For one, it was a time of great racial inequality.  There was great gender inequality as well.  There was a Cold War.  There was a war in Vietnam.  The first Wal-Mart was opened.  There was no EPA or clean water act.   

It is not the golden era you seem to think it was.  Some things may have been better then.  But some things were much worse.  Your assessment is bigoted and simplistic to the point of being childish.


edit - fixed quote and added two lines I forgot.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 15, 2013, 01:31:08 PM
Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens.

Wayne, why do you persist in insulting all the members here?

Uhh, what?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: jaimehlers on January 15, 2013, 01:37:01 PM
On the contrary, there is no other  SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe than Jesus Christ.  You only hope you can serparate them, though I don't know why you'd bother if none exists.  You are not going to win a war of quotes of the founding fathers to prove there is no God.  I think you know that.
What you need to understand is that this is your belief, not necessarily the reality.  Other people who refer to "the Creator" or "the Supreme Being" (etc) are not necessarily speaking of your god.  As long as you keep insisting that they must be, people will easily be able to point out this flaw in your reasoning and will be able to use it to rebut your argument.  They don't have to prove that the Founding Fathers believed in no gods, they just have to prove that the Founding Fathers were not referring to Christianity in particular.  There's ample evidence to show that and practically nothing that shows a specific devotion or reference to Christianity.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: wright on January 15, 2013, 01:40:42 PM
Others (who apparently are on East Coast time)  8) have already addressed most of your assertions. But I will reply to this.

Did you consider the pre 1962 American society a functional society?

It was a functional society in that it was relatively peaceful, safe for the vast majority, and arguably more prosperous than any other before it. And it remains functional, though less safe and less prosperous than it was. It's also markedly improved in many ways since 1962, though you clearly don't agree.

If I showed you a graph that proved skyrocketing crime disease and divorce after Atheists got their way would that change your opinion?  Or will you hold to your guns no matter who is harmed by an empty godless philosophy?

As pianodwarf and others have said, you need to show not just correlation but causation. The former is easy, the latter much less so. I doubt that such a connection exists because if it did, then there would be corresponding results in the real world that would back your assertion up.

Instead, the opposite occurs in countries where religion plays a lesser role in government and public life. Japan and Scandanavian Europe in particular; a phenomenon you have yet to address. Such societies have far less violent crime, greater levels of education, better public health and less disparity between rich and poor. Those countries are not paradises, but they show marked success over the US in many areas.

Those Kids died because of what you atheists foisted on the american public.  I'm not  going to let you off the hook on this.  If you continue to deny that Judeo Christian ethic restrains evil, then you have decided to lie to yourself, and endanger even more children.

As yet, you fail to convince that atheists are even on the hook. I deny that Christianity has any particular success in restraining evil, because all I have to do is look at history and the modern world to see evidence of that. Christianity is just another religion whose ethics its followers (for the most part) simply give lip service to. Christians get as many divorces as non-believers, commit as many violent crimes and are (as opposed to atheists) well-represented in US prisons.



Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 15, 2013, 01:48:34 PM
I use MMOH like I do school prayer.  They are emblematic of a wide range of Atheists and their initiatives that have purposefully driven out the judeo christian restraints against... Killing in this most stark example.

Wayne, what "atheist" initiatives are you talking about?  Please be specific.

How have they "driven out" J-C constraints?  Be specific.

What J-C constraints are you talking about?  Be specific.


I wish I could show you the graphs

Why can't you?

Theyre on a video tape and I have looked on the web for their counterparts.  If I find them I will.  Have you ever tried to digitize a video tape?
  Now screwtape, I know there a miriad of dynamics involved, but I'm on an atheist site right now talking to atheists who's core non belief in any higher law than themselves is a chief cornerstone to those forces that have crippled America's respect for righteous living.  Don't drag me off into all this other unrelated smegma to posture youself.  The higher law of the Ten Commandments made this most prosperous and free nation excel, the forces you side with that removed them, (and they have been removed) don't bear any more responsibility for it than  you do.  Catholics, Jews, Jehovahs witnesses all are bad strains of the true gospel, on a national level the founders were wise to tolerate them, on the state level they would have been shunned, and rightfully so as all their initiatives played into the hands of the enemies of god and that would be atheists.  It's complicated, but none of your jesticulating can remove your complicity in those children's deaths.
That is what this whole discussion is about.

So, those false religious strains did a lot of your atheist work for you.  That's what happens to with bad religion.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 15, 2013, 01:52:33 PM
Catholics, Jews, Jehovahs witnesses all are bad strains of the true gospel, on a national level the founders were wise to tolerate them

This from a semi-mormon. I personally know five republican christians who refused to vote for Romney because of his religion. Be careful what you wish for.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Dante on January 15, 2013, 01:59:14 PM
It's complicated, but none of your jesticulating can remove your complicity in those children's deaths.
That is what this whole discussion is about.

No Wayne, that doesn't follow. You're the one asserting that these horrific incidences are your deity's method of showing Americans the error of their ways, so it follows that your deity had a hand in these messages, no? So, if your god had a hand in it, what was it?

Was it simply to sit back and watch it happen to show us those errors of disbelief? Well, that didn't work simply because there's still an absence of this little thing we like to call "evidence", which we tie to this other little thing we like to call "reality". My reality requires evidence. But, perhaps my standard of evidence differs from yours? If so, I hope you're never on a jury of my peers, because your evidence for your god's existence, or your causation of schoolyard massacres, isn't even circumstantial.

Why can your deity not clearly communicate? Does it have some sort of speech impediment?

The free will argument is as flawed as ever. Omniscience precludes free will. If your deity knows all that ever was and ever will be, it already knew the path America would take, the path that you would take, the path that each and every on of us will take. There is no changing it, for changing it would either go against your god's plan (which I assume you believe is impossible), or not align with what is known as omniscience. There is no way around it, Wayne. Either it knows, or it does not know. And if it knows our path, then our path is already set. There is no free will to be had in this scenario.

Why does your deity not want everyone to believe and be saved?

Listen carefully, Wayne. Most of us atheists don't believe your deity exists. We don't believe ANY deity exists. We're not angry, and we don't actually choose to disbelieve. We just don't see any compelling evidence. For most of us, there's simply no choice in the matter, just as there's no choice in the matter of your disbelief in Santa Claus.

Furthermore, would your deity come out of hiding, and make it's presence unambiguously known, all of us would become believers (believer being a misnomer, as we would become "knowers", I suppose.)! We really would! It's all any of us ask for, ad nauseum!

That's not to say there would be a 100% worship ratio, because there could still be rejection of it's rules based on our personal wants and desires and moral character, but we would at least know it existed! And hey, that's something, right?

Unfortunately, it seems your god doesn't want everyone to know it exists. Which, if true, seems pretty fucking sadistic for a "loving god", considering the punishment for this slight transgression is purported to be ETERNAL DAMNATION!

If an omnipotent being WANTS for anything, it is obviously not omnipotent. That's the very definition of omnipotent; ALL POWERFUL! So explain to me how an all powerful deity can want for anything? How an omnipotent deity can get angry? Be jealous? Have any emotion at all?

It cannot, Wayne. It simply cannot. Or, it's not omnipotent.

Or, it's imaginary.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 15, 2013, 02:02:29 PM
Catholics, Jews, Jehovahs witnesses all are bad strains of the true gospel, on a national level the founders were wise to tolerate them

This from a semi-mormon. I personally know five republican christians who refused to vote for Romney because of his religion. Be careful what you wish for.

Yeah, I know.  I deserved that.  Funny huh?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 15, 2013, 02:11:50 PM
Catholics, Jews, Jehovahs witnesses all are bad strains of the true gospel, on a national level the founders were wise to tolerate them

This from a semi-mormon. I personally know five republican christians who refused to vote for Romney because of his religion. Be careful what you wish for.

Yeah, I know.  I deserved that.  Funny huh?

Our demand for religious freedom includes you, dude.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 15, 2013, 02:34:28 PM
It's complicated, but none of your gesticulating can remove your complicity in those children's deaths.
That is what this whole discussion is about.

No Wayne, that doesn't follow. You're the one asserting that these horrific incidences are your deity's method of showing Americans the error of their ways, so it follows that your deity had a hand in these messages, no? So, if your god had a hand in it, what was it?

Was it simply to sit back and watch it happen to show us those errors of disbelief? Well, that didn't work simply because there's still an absence of this little thing we like to call "evidence", which we tie to this other little thing we like to call "reality". My reality requires evidence. But, perhaps my standard of evidence differs from yours? If so, I hope you're never on a jury of my peers, because your evidence for your god's existence, or your causation of schoolyard massacres, isn't even circumstantial.

Why can your deity not clearly communicate? Does it have some sort of speech impediment?

The free will argument is as flawed as ever. Omniscience precludes free will. If your deity knows all that ever was and ever will be, it already knew the path America would take, the path that you would take, the path that each and every on of us will take. There is no changing it, for changing it would either go against your god's plan (which I assume you believe is impossible), or not align with what is known as omniscience. There is no way around it, Wayne. Either it knows, or it does not know. And if it knows our path, then our path is already set. There is no free will to be had in this scenario.

Why does your deity not want everyone to believe and be saved?

Listen carefully, Wayne. Most of us atheists don't believe your deity exists. We don't believe ANY deity exists. We're not angry, and we don't actually choose to disbelieve. We just don't see any compelling evidence. For most of us, there's simply no choice in the matter, just as there's no choice in the matter of your disbelief in Santa Claus.

Furthermore, would your deity come out of hiding, and make it's presence unambiguously known, all of us would become believers (believer being a misnomer, as we would become "knowers", I suppose.)! We really would! It's all any of us ask for, ad nauseum!

That's not to say there would be a 100% worship ratio, because there could still be rejection of it's rules based on our personal wants and desires and moral character, but we would at least know it existed! And hey, that's something, right?

Unfortunately, it seems your god doesn't want everyone to know it exists. Which, if true, seems pretty ducking sadistic for a "loving god", considering the punishment for this slight transgression is purported to be ETERNAL DAMNATION!

If an omnipotent being WANTS for anything, it is obviously not omnipotent. That's the very definition of omnipotent; ALL POWERFUL! So explain to me how an all powerful deity can want for anything? How an omnipotent deity can get angry? Be jealous? Have any emotion at all?

It cannot, Wayne. It simply cannot. Or, it's not omnipotent.

Or, it's imaginary.

Did I accuse you of being angry?  I must have somewhere. You don't have to tell me you aren't angry, I would never have thought such a thing.
OK, I'm playing with you.
He's a mysterious and mostly silent God.  Much of what you blaze about here I can affirm as to be quite frustrating, and you articulate it well.  He gave you great abilities to articulate your rational world and then throws you irrational curve balls.  It's weird. I agree. 

Maybe you could lighten up on me if you realised that I  don't know the answers, and on a rational basis no better than you at figuring God out.  But just think about a God that would be providing me these premonitions to share with you.  Hey, I'm just the messenger after all.

You want to hear something funny?  I grew up with the name Speed.  I didn't even know my name was DeWayne until kindergarten.  (I dropped the De).  About a year and a half ago my business hit the skids with the economy, and that's when I got the thirteen volumes out of my attic that contained premonitions.  While discovering these amazing connections in my writings to this present day that old nickname speed came to mind, and when I looked into its origins I discovered that in old English it was commonly used for "messenger".  It's synonymous with Rush.  There is a movie out now called premium rush. about a messenger. My parents didn't give me that name but an uncle did when he was told how I was born before they could get me to the hospital.  He  called me speedy.  It stuck.  it really stuck.  That uncle was the product of some of my ancestors polygamous past just to add a little spice to the story.  Now I know that this is kind of a personal quirky thing, but that uncle spiritually christened me with a moniker without knowing what he was doing.  And the name stuck for reasons I know that no one knew, certainly not me.  But when those volumes came out of the attic, and their contents revealed prophetic information, I for the first time discovered that I was a messenger. Speed.

So now you know (some of ) the rest of the story.
Good Day!

Ps. I let spell check correct your part of this message, or I might not have been able to respond.  It says duck now.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: screwtape on January 15, 2013, 02:41:23 PM
Theyre on a video tape and I have looked on the web for their counterparts.  If I find them I will.  Have you ever tried to digitize a video tape?

If the information is so esoteric as to only exist in one place, chances are it's a fraud.  And while I have never personally digitized a video tape, I know people who have.

atheists who's core non belief in any higher law than themselves is a chief cornerstone to those forces that have crippled America's respect for righteous living.

Wayne, I am afraid I am going to have to use some blue language to convey just what I mean.  Be prepared.

Don't fucking tell me what I believe you arrogant, emptyheaded fuckwad.  You have already demonstrated you don't know shit about shit.  So hows about you drop the stupid prejudices and listen to what people are telling you about themselves?

Don't drag me off into all this other unrelated smegma to posture youself.

Wayne, you give yourself too much credit.  You have no idea where I'm going with this.   

The higher law of the Ten Commandments made this most prosperous and free nation excel,

Actually, they didn't.  Democracy is based on Greek and Roman philosophy and culture.  There is nothing democratic about judaism or xianity.  In fact, they are anti-democratic because they are monarchic hierarchies.  That is to say, they portray an ideal universe as one where one king in the sky rules one king on earth who rules a bunch of priests or tribal leaders, who rule the rest of us.  That is not democracy.  That is monarchy.  And monarchy is what the American colonists sort of fought against.   

As for the 10 commandments, you haven't said which 10 commandments.  There are a couple versions.  One version includes "thou shalt not boil a kid in its mother's milk".  Whacky, huh?

And if they are the 10 I think you mean, at least half of them are irrelelvant to a good society.  The others were not original to judaism and predated them by hundreds if not thousands of years.  Don't kill people, don't steal stuff, don't pork other people's spouses, don't lie.  All those predate the OT.  And, not coincidentally, atheists agree with them. 

That's the thing.  We don't want to get rid of morality.  We just want xians to keep their fricken religion to themselves and to follow the constitution.  Is that too much to ask?

Here's the problem Wayne.  You think you know things.  You don't.  You don't know anything.
 

Catholics, Jews, Jehovahs witnesses all are bad strains of the true gospel, on a national level the founders were wise to tolerate them, on the state level they would have been shunned, and rightfully so as all their initiatives played into the hands of the enemies of god and that would be atheists.  It's complicated, but none of your jesticulating can remove your complicity in those children's deaths.

That's just your bigoted opinion.  There are no facts or winning arguments there.  Just your petulant, ugly wishes without any evidence that we should take them to be true.

So, those false religious strains did a lot of your atheist work for you.  That's what happens to with bad religion.

More of the same.  They just wanted to not have other people's religion shoved down their throats.

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Dante on January 15, 2013, 02:44:20 PM
He's a mysterious and mostly silent God.  Much of what you blaze about here I can affirm as to be quite frustrating, and you articulate it well.  He gave you great abilities to articulate your rational world and then throws you irrational curve balls.  It's weird. I agree. 

Yeah, weird. Or, it could be your beliefs are irrational, and your god is imaginary.

Edit to add: Also weird[1] that you didn't address any of the questions or points, and fall back on "mysterious ways" malarky. You seemed to have all the answers before. I was hoping for better from you, Wayne.

Quote
You want to hear something funny? 

Most of what you've already said is quite funny, if not for the fact that you really believe it. Then it's just scary.

Do you wanna hear something funny? My birth name is John Christopher, and yet here I am, about as atheist as it gets. Weird, huh?

Quote
Ps. I let spell check correct your part of this message, or I might not have been able to respond. 

You might not have been able?

Duck you.
 1. not really, we all saw it coming
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: wheels5894 on January 15, 2013, 03:07:34 PM
Wayne,

As people have said above it is no good ranting. We really want to understand your logic and working out that the lack of prayers was the problem. Can you set it down in steps for us to see?

Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: Hatter23 on January 15, 2013, 04:07:05 PM
On the contrary, there is no other  SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe than Jesus Christ. 

So says you, other people say differently. There's an issue though, every 'proof' people produce operates on some sort of logical fallacy. There's nothing to seperate what you are say from the rantings of a mad man other than popularity and tradition. There is nothing to seperate what other religions say is true from the rantings of a mad man other than popularity and tradition.

Logically speaking, every brand of theism can't all be right. It is quite possible for all brands of theism to be wrong. The position that each other brand of theism is wrong is not mad, after all you agree with it. If we listed 100 gods, the only one you would select as real would be Yahweh/Jesus...you would show yourself 99% atheist.

So we have atheism which esentially takes the poistion of unless you can provide a compelling argument that your version of of theism is the only and correct one that could not equally apply to one of your competitors, we will go that extra 1%. Despite billions of dollars spent, wars fought, and hundreds if not thousands of book of Apolgia...none of you have come up with said compelling reasonable argument. I, for one, have gotten the point, your Jesus doesn't exist. There may have been some historical legend it was based off of, but the one you believe is still around as an invisible intangible superbeing doesn't exist, never existed, using the tri-omni paradox couldn't possibly have existed.

 



Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: 12 Monkeys on January 15, 2013, 07:25:12 PM
 Does the pre 1962 thing just mean in terms of religion or is it an African American freedom thing also,Wayne? Are you saying America started the downhill slide when they started the civil rights movement or is that just coincidence?
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 15, 2013, 07:46:08 PM
Wayne,

As people have said above it is no good ranting. We really want to understand your logic and working out that the lack of prayers was the problem. Can you set it down in steps for us to see?

Thanks Wheels. 

A lot of personal insulting and profanity going on around here.  What if god set you all in a world with a whole heck of a lot of evidence that everything is determined by science and math and logic and all the stuff that really does help you get on well in this world.  You know, like what makes you feel secure in your ability to make sense of things and stuff.  After a while, you would probably think that you knew all the rules that govern things and then might get the notion that there is no god because, from all the rules you have figured out, he doesn't quite compute.  Would your inability to detect his presence with the tools he left you mean he isn't there?

Someone whose name I shall not mention above is as certain that this god doesn't exist as he is that I don't know (nothing), (expletives deleted).  That's one heck of a persuasive argument. 

I believe the best balance between the known world and the unknown world is to affirm all we know, and admit humbly that there is a supernatural world that you don't know.  I don't frankly see a problem with that, except in the area like where bad religious hucksters start selling supernatural snake oil. 

That is an area of this issue that might make me side with atheists.  More lies are perpetrated in the name of religion that anything else.  But that does not cause me to throw the baby out with the bathwater.  Evil is in the world and what better place for it to hide than behind false religion?

You asked me for steps.
Well, let's see.  How to detect the presence of God that purposefully hides himself from unbelievers.  Would you excuse me for a while, I'm not coming up with anything off the top of my head.

In the mean time I will postulate some personal theories that simply come from my own experiences.  I used to read a book series called His mysterious ways.  I think, along with my evangelical sunday school background these books did more in helping me recognise God' hand than even maybe the bible itself.  Oh they fully affirm the bible in every aspect but what is remarkable about them is the examples of God's providence in peoples lives.

I know you have heard stories like these, PP mentioned a Readers Digest story that had a similar theme.  Now, my curiosity for the God of the bible made these stores particularly inviting.

I just read a new one like what I'm referring to just a couple of weeks ago on line.  Here's a summary of it.  A Pastor of a church in California is traveling with his family by car in Washington state.  They stop for a rest and while the wife and kids are in a store he walks around stretching his legs sipping on a slurpee when a telephone rings at a gas station pay phone.  It rings and rings and rings, and starts getting on his nerves.  He finally picks up the receiver and the operator says she has a long distance call for, and says his name.  He understandably reacts with shock and asks how they knew he was there.  So he takes the call and the woman on the other end said that she was about to take her life, and prayed to god for help.  A number came into her mind and the name of the preacher,(who she had seen on TV).  She dialed the number and so he was able to talk to her.
Now the rational mind would be able to take this account and be forced to attribute it to a prank, because there is no other possible explanation.  But for someone like me it is entirely believable because it matches the uncanny experiences of my life. 

http://www.smilegodlovesyou.org/kengaub.html

I don't know this guy, never saw him on TV, all I know about is this story I read, but  like the stories I read in the  His Mysterious Ways series, I became attuned to how God works.

Another one that is so bizarre is a story about a missionary that goes alone to speak to the natives before the gospel is translated to the native tongue.  The guy contracts a dread disease, held at spearpoint, threatened with death, and then a helicopter flies over, unaccountably.  He's able to hail the pilot who was not looking for him, got rescued, hospitalized,and after his recovery returned to the villiage with a new found respect among the villagers because of the miraculous bird that took him away.  They listened raptly to every word of their messanger from god and he was able to translate the gospel successfully to them. During the process he's trying to tell them about how the gospel comes from a book.  What he doesn't know is that they have in their native folklore a story that attributes good luck of some kind to a banana stalk/Pod of some kind.  I think they called it their god pod , or god tree or something. While he is trying to describe the pages of the book one of them takes this big pod thing and slams it in front of him like trying to ring a bell  with a giant mallet, the pod pops open and its contents flays out just like the pages of a book.  It turned out that god had given the villiage a premonition in their own folklore that confirmed that god would send them a book, before they knew what a book was. Extraneous stuff.  It not only confirmed the meaning to the natives, but assured the missionary that he wasn't on some fools errand to be out there in the first place. 
So if there is a step, I'd say the first is curiosity.  If you don't want to know, then forget it.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: WayneHarropson on January 15, 2013, 08:10:42 PM
On the contrary, there is no other  SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe than Jesus Christ. 

 If we listed 100 gods, the only one you would select as real would be Yahweh/Jesus...you would show yourself 99% atheist.

Is it too late to change my screen name.  I want to change it to:  99% atheist.

Then maybe Ill get some respect around here!

Great post.
Title: Re: Please validate your belief in your God
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 15, 2013, 09:01:03 PM
Wayne

First of all, your comment on our insults seems to neglect the ones you've thrown our way. Here are a bunch of them, all in one text box.

Quote
I have a feeling the killer was one of yours.

If my premonition means anything at all it does mean that they were taken meaninglessly by victims of the outlawing of the inculcating of biblical morality in public that your precious atheism insists upon.  There is a consequence to over ruling biblical morality.  Atheism is the culprit.  You should be ashamed.

Just to remind you, the office manager killed and mutilated them.  I ask you, why shouldn' t he have under the atheist philosophy?<