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Main Discussion Zone => Why Won't God Heal Amputees? => Topic started by: NATHAN on April 26, 2012, 12:38:38 PM

Title: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on April 26, 2012, 12:38:38 PM
Just wondering what the forum's opinion is on demon possession? Do demons exist and can people become demon possessed. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on April 26, 2012, 12:40:52 PM
The forum doesn't have an opinion on anything. Individuals do. This one[1] does not believe in demons and, as a corollary, also does not believe in demon possession.
 1. Mass Effect reference.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: hickdive on April 26, 2012, 01:27:16 PM
I concur with Lucifer.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: velkyn on April 26, 2012, 01:45:30 PM
Just wondering what the forum's opinion is on demon possession? Do demons exist and can people become demon possessed.

Provide evidence that demons exist.  It is my considered opinion, based on observation, that demons do not exist and people who claim they do are delusional.   
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Omen on April 26, 2012, 01:47:34 PM
Just wondering what the forum's opinion is on demon possession? Do demons exist and can people become demon possessed.

Evidence?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on April 26, 2012, 02:51:05 PM
Evidence? [/quote]

Provide evidence that they do not exist!

I know they do.  I have assisted in Exorcisms. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Omen on April 26, 2012, 02:52:06 PM
Provide evidence that they do not exist!

I know they do.  I have assisted in Exorcisms.

So something is true until its proven not true?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on April 26, 2012, 02:52:35 PM
Provide evidence that they do not exist!

That's not how it works. The one who makes the positive claim is the one who must provide the evidence. It is impossible to provide evidence for the non-existence of something.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on April 26, 2012, 03:05:21 PM
I am asking opinion and belief of individual (thank you for the correction).  You are asking for proof.  You quesitons are not valid for this forum.  I personally believe in demons, I have seen them, I have experience interactions with them and wonder if any one else has. 

If you want to have theological discussion of how they were created and where they come from I will be more then happy to go down that road. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: hickdive on April 26, 2012, 03:09:29 PM
What did they look like?

How did you interact with them?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: caveat_imperator on April 26, 2012, 03:11:10 PM
Provide evidence that they do not exist!

I know they do.  I have assisted in Exorcisms.
The fact that you can't provide any worthy evidence is evidence to me that demons are non-existent.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Omen on April 26, 2012, 03:15:06 PM
I am asking opinion and belief of individual (thank you for the correction).  You are asking for proof.  You quesitons are not valid for this forum.  I personally believe in demons, I have seen them, I have experience interactions with them and wonder if any one else has. 

If you want to have theological discussion of how they were created and where they come from I will be more then happy to go down that road.

My opinions are directly based on available evidence.

Do you have evidence?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: thunderridge on April 26, 2012, 03:15:42 PM
Demons are imaginary.  You have probably talked to your god as well.  In reality it is all in your mind.  Your demons and such.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on April 26, 2012, 03:22:58 PM
What did they look like?

How did you interact with them?

Sometimes they are translucent, others are black wisps.   

Quote
The fact that you can't provide any worthy evidence is evidence to me that demons are non-existent
.

Interesting.  I am sure Christopher Columbus was told the same thing about America. 


Quote
Demons are imaginary.  You have probably talked to your god as well.  In reality it is all in your mind.  Your demons and such


That is funny a house full of people that do not believe in god witnessed it and can testify to what happened.  but that is not proof enough.  They called us we answered the call. 

Black eyes, multiple toned voices, spitting at us was the imagination of 6 different people.  If that is the case I am delusional. 

Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Omen on April 26, 2012, 03:24:19 PM
Sometimes they ..

Evidence?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Azdgari on April 26, 2012, 03:25:50 PM
Nathan, just a heads up - so far all your bold claims are indistinguishable, to us, from lies.  It looks like you're just lying, whether or not you actually are.

If you're not, then that should bother you.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: hickdive on April 26, 2012, 03:37:30 PM

Sometimes they are translucent, others are black wisps.   



What shapes do these translucent objects or black wisps have?

What makes you identify these things as demons?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Ambassador Pony on April 26, 2012, 03:41:16 PM
Nathan, I don't believe you are that fucking stupid.

Give it up, you're just pulling our chains, right?

Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Emily on April 26, 2012, 04:02:31 PM
Nathan, what you have seen is not going to convince us. It might convince your little christian friends with whom you socialize with on a sunday morning, but on a forum it's not going to work. To us it looks like you're making shit up.

If you have seen what you have then I am jealous. I would've loved to have seen a demon, or witness an exorcism. Just because I think it would be cool. But all-in-all your two encounters are appearing more to be lies.

You're whole not giving evidence to us for your encounter thing wont last very long here. Perhaps it would do you best to go down a different path of discussion, and not the discussion of what you have 'seen'.

And to answer your question about demons, no they don't exist (at least not the christian version of any demonic creature), because that christian holy book is completely false. Now Pinhead, he's real. I've seen him. There are documentations of what he can do. By my last count he's been caught on camera 8, if I am not mistaken.
-Em
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Emily on April 26, 2012, 04:14:49 PM
Question for you Nathan:

You claim to have witnessed exorcisms. This person you witnessed who was under possession and later had an exorcism preformed on him or her, what kind of faith this person have? On a range from 1 - 10, one being very weak faith, 5 being a moderate level of faith and 10 being very strong faith, rate this person's faith in your god.

EDIT: And also, how well did you know this person.

Please don't dodge this question. I am truly curious to know.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: nogodsforme on April 26, 2012, 04:39:42 PM
I do not believe that any supernatural beings exist. I have been in santeria, vodun and palo monte ceremonies where people became possessed by what they said were spirits or saints (and some Christians would say were demons). There are psychological reasons for what happened.

All known scientific and physical explanations have to be accounted for and discarded before you decide that it really was something supernatural like demons or spirits.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on April 26, 2012, 06:13:30 PM
i find this sad. I've watched "exorcism" shows where some "exorcist" proclaims that he can cast out demons and knew that some viewers would disbelieve. I was being all smug and decided, "Oh go on, show me the levitation, head spinning, and vomiting." Not a single scary thing ever occurred. One man threw up, but he was only having a pissed off fit. What i learned from viewing this is this; guilt over the loss, anger towards someone, hearing voices, being suicidal is all because of some demonic possession. BS. It's all human nature, nothing to do with demons and other evil entities.

I do not believe in demons or possessions because there is no evidence for it. i see no evil spirits, i see no supernatural things going on. I heard some people say they see levitation and supernatural strength. The video shows nothing more than a "possessed" person just lying on the ground convulsing and shouting. the exorcist is right about one thing, not everyone would believe this. I've watched it carefully and i still don't believe.

Nathan, you say that we should prove the negative, why don't you prove to me that i don't have a tiny fairy living in my pocket. Go on.

Also, proclaiming that you've "seen" things isn't good enough. i don't know what you were looking at, but i will tell you this; videos can be doctored up and our minds are flawed and we sometimes hallucinate.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: albeto on April 26, 2012, 06:43:35 PM
I am asking opinion and belief of individual (thank you for the correction).  You are asking for proof.  You quesitons are not valid for this forum.  I personally believe in demons, I have seen them, I have experience interactions with them and wonder if any one else has. 

If you want to have theological discussion of how they were created and where they come from I will be more then happy to go down that road.

I would be most interested in hear of your experience.  What is it you saw?  If there was a video camera in the room with you, what would it have recorded?

I just attended a conference last weekend that talked about this a bit.  It was fascinating and I believe you, I just wonder what it would look like to a disinterested third party. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on April 26, 2012, 06:58:14 PM
Question for you Nathan:

You claim to have witnessed exorcisms. This person you witnessed who was under possession and later had an exorcism preformed on him or her, what kind of faith this person have? On a range from 1 - 10, one being very weak faith, 5 being a moderate level of faith and 10 being very strong faith, rate this person's faith in your god.

EDIT: And also, how well did you know this person.

Please don't dodge this question. I am truly curious to know.

i am answering on my phone so please forgive the typos

the house was demonically charged.  the people living there were making fun of it and thought it was cool.
one night a guy was drunk.  he was not a believer nor was he seeking god.   he challenged the thing to dwell within him.  the demon entered him and took control.  by the time we arrived his eyes were completely black.
he would be himself one minute and then something else.  demon only have permission when we let them.  the man spoke in different voices.  spit at his dog tags which were blessed prior to his military departure to iran. 
he was violent.  in the mist of all this when mike was speaking we asked him if would receive christ. he said yes.  we asked who he was and he said many. balith was another name given to us. 

Three hours later he had peace.

There are people that still live in the house that are not believers that can verify what i am saying.

Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Emily on April 26, 2012, 07:26:23 PM
I'm drunk, so forgive my typos

by the time we arrived his eyes were completely black.

What made you arrive? Did someone call you to this dudes "demonically charged" house?

Quote
There are people that still live in the house that are not believers that can verify what i am saying.

Kool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Invite them here to corroborated your story.

And why would someone who was not seeking god and who were making fun of it get demonically possessed while there are others who do the same exact thing don't appear to be demonically possessed.

::FOR EXAMPLE::

God I challenge you to send a legion of demons to possess me! I beg you too! Please god, and please satan and his legions of fallen angels. I make fun of you guys because you don't exist. I spit on you guys.

Love, Emilie Nicole.

::example over::

Quote
he would be himself one minute and then something else.

The dude could've been bipolar?!?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Argyle on April 26, 2012, 07:36:25 PM
It's called schizophrenia and it is a serious mental condition. Exorcisms only make it worse, as they may feed into the persons delusion. Which is more dangerous, a person who is confused about their identity, or a person who has been convinced that they have multiple identities in their head and that one of them is a demon.

Seriously, if you see this man again, take him to see someone qualified to treat his condition, and that person is not someone who has studied theology, that person is someone who has studied neuropathology.

Emily: Just for future reference, bipolar disorder does not cause multiple personalities, it is the same personality exhibiting markedly different levels of depression, anger, fear, happiness etc. in rapid succession. It is a very debilitating disorder, but with proper treatment can be very manageable. I should know, my wife suffered from many of the symptoms.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: hickdive on April 26, 2012, 08:05:11 PM
the house was demonically charged.  the people living there were making fun of it and thought it was cool.
one night a guy was drunk.  he was not a believer nor was he seeking god.   he challenged the thing to dwell within him.  the demon entered him and took control.  by the time we arrived his eyes were completely black.
he would be himself one minute and then something else.  demon only have permission when we let them.  the man spoke in different voices.  spit at his dog tags which were blessed prior to his military departure to iran. 
he was violent.  in the mist of all this when mike was speaking we asked him if would receive christ. he said yes.  we asked who he was and he said many. balith was another name given to us. 

Three hours later he had peace.

There are people that still live in the house that are not believers that can verify what i am saying.

So you didn't see anything translucent or any black wisps at this event?

There are no other possible explanations such as mental illness, substance abuse (in addition to or instead of the alcohol you mention, which is known to cause 'odd' behaviour in itself) or just plain old hoaxing you?

What you appear to have here is a confirmation bias towards demons and demonic possession. You believe in such things and so what you see confirms your beliefs.

OTOH the majority of other posters in this thread have no such bias and simply want to examine what evidence you have. Unfortunately, your description of events is subject to your bias and therefore can be discounted as evidence.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Seppuku on April 26, 2012, 09:00:23 PM
The forum doesn't have an opinion on anything. Individuals do. This one[1] does not believe in demons and, as a corollary, also does not believe in demon possession.
 1. Mass Effect reference.

I'm commander Shepherd and this is my favourite reference on the citadel. ;)


On the note of exorcism, you can't give us ANY actual proof that demon possession is real, but simply what you and other claim to witness or what you interpret as demonic possession and seek to exorcise these people. Surely with how common so-called exorcisms are we'd have something conclusive? Instead, this practice can lead to the death of so-called 'possessed' people. http://whatstheharm.net/exorcisms.html (http://whatstheharm.net/exorcisms.html)

I think with this dangerous superstition, there is a severe call for proof on this.

You're also talking about potentially mentally ill people here, people who should seek medical help, as Argyle rightly suggests. With something like schizophrenia, you definitely don't want to worsen their condition, schizophrenics can sometimes be violent (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1272145/Grandmother-killed-schizophrenic-random-stabbing-went-play-skittles.html) (my uncle, for example) and it's better to get them diagnosed and get them treated than pumping their minds with delusions.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Nick on April 26, 2012, 10:49:52 PM
Just wondering what the forum's opinion is on demon possession? Do demons exist and can people become demon possessed.
NO, but it would be cool.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Nick on April 26, 2012, 10:50:57 PM
I am asking opinion and belief of individual (thank you for the correction).  You are asking for proof.  You quesitons are not valid for this forum.  I personally believe in demons, I have seen them, I have experience interactions with them and wonder if any one else has. 

If you want to have theological discussion of how they were created and where they come from I will be more then happy to go down that road.
What kind of drug were you on.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Nick on April 26, 2012, 10:53:46 PM
What did they look like?

How did you interact with them?

Sometimes they are translucent, others are black wisps.   

Quote
The fact that you can't provide any worthy evidence is evidence to me that demons are non-existent
.

Interesting.  I am sure Christopher Columbus was told the same thing about America. 


Quote
Demons are imaginary.  You have probably talked to your god as well.  In reality it is all in your mind.  Your demons and such


That is funny a house full of people that do not believe in god witnessed it and can testify to what happened.  but that is not proof enough.  They called us we answered the call. 

Black eyes, multiple toned voices, spitting at us was the imagination of 6 different people.  If that is the case I am delusional.
They must be afraid of atheists.  We have challenged demons to come here often over the years.      We should be ripe for the picking.  And just like your imaginay sky daddy...nothing.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Nick on April 26, 2012, 10:55:59 PM
Question for you Nathan:

You claim to have witnessed exorcisms. This person you witnessed who was under possession and later had an exorcism preformed on him or her, what kind of faith this person have? On a range from 1 - 10, one being very weak faith, 5 being a moderate level of faith and 10 being very strong faith, rate this person's faith in your god.

EDIT: And also, how well did you know this person.

Please don't dodge this question. I am truly curious to know.

i am answering on my phone so please forgive the typos

the house was demonically charged.  the people living there were making fun of it and thought it was cool.
one night a guy was drunk.  he was not a believer nor was he seeking god.   he challenged the thing to dwell within him.  the demon entered him and took control.  by the time we arrived his eyes were completely black.
he would be himself one minute and then something else.  demon only have permission when we let them.  the man spoke in different voices.  spit at his dog tags which were blessed prior to his military departure to iran. 
he was violent.  in the mist of all this when mike was speaking we asked him if would receive christ. he said yes.  we asked who he was and he said many. balith was another name given to us. 

Three hours later he had peace.

There are people that still live in the house that are not believers that can verify what i am saying.
You are a nut.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: wright on April 26, 2012, 11:22:35 PM
i am answering on my phone so please forgive the typos

the house was demonically charged.  the people living there were making fun of it and thought it was cool.
one night a guy was drunk.  he was not a believer nor was he seeking god.   he challenged the thing to dwell within him.  the demon entered him and took control.  by the time we arrived his eyes were completely black.
he would be himself one minute and then something else.  demon only have permission when we let them.  the man spoke in different voices.  spit at his dog tags which were blessed prior to his military departure to iran. 
he was violent.  in the mist of all this when mike was speaking we asked him if would receive christ. he said yes.  we asked who he was and he said many. balith was another name given to us. 

Three hours later he had peace.

There are people that still live in the house that are not believers that can verify what i am saying.

If you aren't a Poe or a troll, you are delusional. I feel sorry for you, but sorrier for those you've harmed and encouraged in their own delusions while "exorcising" them.

If such things actually happened, there would be evidence for them. Since no one has ever produced verifiable evidence for the supernatural, such lies and delusions can be discounted.

The human mind is very easily deceived; a holdover from when it was safer to run from an imagined lion in the tall grass than fail to spot a real one. You and I have the luxury of living in a time when human inquiry and endeavor has paid off in ways literally unimaginable to our ancestors. That you choose to remain cocooned in your bubble of delusion and ignorance, while surrounded by opportunities to step out of it, astounds and saddens me.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Astreja on April 27, 2012, 12:23:19 AM
It's called schizophrenia and it is a serious mental condition. Exorcisms only make it worse, as they may feed into the persons delusion...

...Seriously, if you see this man again, take him to see someone qualified to treat his condition, and that person is not someone who has studied theology, that person is someone who has studied neuropathology.

^^^ This.

I think "demons" are a psychological and neurological phenomenon, 100% natural and 0% supernatural.  I also think that it's criminally negligent to offer mythological woo-woo in the place of readily-available medical therapy.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Fiji on April 27, 2012, 02:43:52 AM
Quote
The fact that you can't provide any worthy evidence is evidence to me that demons are non-existent
.
Interesting.  I am sure Christopher Columbus was told the same thing about America. 
This just makes my alternate historian toes curl. Columbus hadn't a clue about America. Even after walking around on it, he was unaware of where exactly he had been. If he had studied the available data, he'd have known that no way had he traveled far enough to be in India already. Yes, pretty good estimates of the circumference was already known at the time.[1] But he chose to ignore the available evidence and go with the explanation that suited him. Land? Must be India!
Or in the case of our Nathan ...
I see strange things? Must be demons!


As for the above post ...

I concur with Argyle and Astreja. The parts of the brain that light up when someone sees a demon are the same ones that process our perception of the world around us. That part (I forgot what it's called, anyone?) is there to process input. It's its raison d'être.[2] and when not enough data is coming in to process. The brain just starts making up data to throw at that part of the brain.[3] Must Process data ... MUST PROCESS DATA. So to the owner of the brain, the results coming from that processed made up data is indestinguishable from the processed real world data. The only way he can tell that person a is real and person b is not, is by engaging other parts of his brain.
"Is it logical that a guy with black eyes is standing in my locked bedroom, wearing a chicken carcass on his head?"
It takes training, but some schitzophrenics can learn to ignore the stuff their brains make up ... though it can still catch them unawares and they sometimes realise that the person they've been talking to for the past half hour ... doesn't exist.
And that's people who are aware of their condition and are actively taking steps to remedy it.
Now, poeple like our Nathan (if he's not a poe/troll) have been told by their religion that demons are real. This stops them from even realising that they have a condition in the first place never mind taking steps to overcome the condition.




 1. had been for over a thousand years
 2. Or rather, its raison d'avoir été évolué
 3. phantom pains exist because of a similar process. The perception of the self is suddenly missing a limb and just starts making up thing that the missing limb 'should' be feeling
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Grimm on April 27, 2012, 06:53:01 AM
... okay.  So I read this.

NATHAN - I hate to toss an internet meme at you in liu of actually going into some sort of detailed discussion, but this one is particularly apropos:

"Pics, or it didn't happen."

I am willing to entertain evidence of the supernatural, but what you're presenting here isn't evidence, it's an anecdote.  Given that my own experiences belie what you're saying here... well.. I'm not inclined to believe you.

I say that with all the respect I can muster:  before I fell off the religious wagon (as it were), I was a dedicated amateur ghost hunter, the kind of guy that went to every local haunted house and cemetery just to see if I could come up with more evidence for the existence of the supernatural.  I can tell you dozens of stories like the one you're sharing that, as I learned to be skeptical of my experiences, didn't hold up as I came to better understand science, probability, and reality.   What I thought I saw at the time just wasn't what it really was, once I was armed with the knowledge to understand the causes behind it.

Folks on this forum know that, for several years, I ran cons to eat - little grifts and 'spiritual' seances, tarot card readings, voodoo 'luck' charms, that sort of nonsense.  Doing that gives you a certain amount of perspective:  people cling to hope.  They want people to be able to speak to their dead relatives, or to blame their streak of bad circumstances on some sort of errant curse.  They want the universe to make sense, to have causes they can understand - and guys like what I was prey on that delusion.  The thing is:  it worked on the people around that person as well.  I could, with a straight face, tell my mark that I could see an "aura of evil" around them, and you would be shocked at how their 'sensitive' friend they brought with 'em would jump to confirm my vision. 

I don't think that these 'friends' were lying - I think the power of a well-placed experience is such that they could see that nonsense.  They suspended their disbelief, and their mind filled in the gap.

Perhaps that happened to you - chanting an incense and a guy who's delusional turns into a full-blown demonic exorcism with black wisps and vague shapes, 'tongues' and other names you inadvertantly dredged out of some poor schmuck's subconscious.  I could have done it, when I was practicing that kind of patter every day; John Edwards, that unconscionable fraud, does the same thing every week, if gentler than your description.

I don't know.

But I can tell you that what you've offered so far isn't outside of the realm of something I could accomplish, given a roomful of strangers in a spooky location, the right buildup, and a few, simple, non-Fx-grade props (like a bible and a collar, for instance).  Afterwords, they'd all firmly believe it happened - and some would go on believing even after I told them it was utterly false.

Don't believe me?

Watch Darren Brown do it to a bunch of unsuspecting folk:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDXQTBUCpYw
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on April 27, 2012, 07:00:54 AM
For clarity:
We were called to a non believers house.  The house in the community we live in is know for "ghost " activity.  The family would report to us that kitchen drawers would be open and even knives being thrown at members of the family.  They all reported seeing dark wispy figures in their rooms and sounds such as foot steps, voices, and thumps. 

This particular night the young man was drunk and challenged the what ever was in the house to dwell within him.  He open a legalistic door which the demon walked through.  The young man became violent as he was speaking in multiple voices to the family.  The went further to physical violence in which the husband physically choked the young man out to get him under control.  When we arrived the young man had black eyes, spoke in multiple voices, and stated that there were many in him. 

By the way the pastor I was with holds a doctorate in counseling and he interviewed the young man.  In the misty of all that was going on we finally hear the young man's voice.  through a process he accepted Christ giving us authority to move forward.  If he had not accepted Christ we would have walked away.  Through prayer, and spiritual discernment God delivered the young man. 

I will discuss this with the people involved but I am very reluctant due to the abusive nature of people here.  I am not schizophrenic but it is so like the medical field to just throw labels on people. 

I would love to go to an mental hospital with the gifting God has given me and prove to you God's discerning power.  You do not have to tell me anything about the people I will let god.  Prove me wrong or right.  But would you have the mental ability to handle truth if you saw.  The answer is probably no.  You in your ration mind with see and justify so you do not have to believe it.   

To reiterate  was with a trained counselor and this was not something made up in our minds.  It was real whether you choose to believe it or not.  Deception is the plan of any enemy and the best part of deception is not knowing you are being deceived.  Ever person cn be decieved one way or another. 

You want proof ask emily how she slept after inviting a legion of demon in.  Do not play with this demonic Rhelm!

Just becuase you do not believe it does not mean it is not real.  I have never seen you do this mean you are not real.  All the posting could be one person with multiple personals.  Thus I am not  real and that makes you a schizophrenic.



Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on April 27, 2012, 07:02:58 AM

Quote
"Pics, or it didn't happen."


Do you tell rape victims that?  How about murder victims?

That is amazingly stupid.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Grimm on April 27, 2012, 07:08:36 AM

Quote
"Pics, or it didn't happen."


Do you tell rape victims that?  How about murder victims?

That is amazingly stupid.

Did you actually /read/ the post, or did you just stop there?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on April 27, 2012, 07:12:50 AM

Quote
"Pics, or it didn't happen."



My apologies
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Seppuku on April 27, 2012, 07:27:00 AM
NATHAN, I propose to you, the psychological theory of:

Reconstructive Memory (http://www.bookrags.com/research/reconstructive-memory-lmem-01/)

Quote
Subjectively, memory feels like a camera that faithfully records and replays details of our past. In fact, memory is a reconstructive process prone to systematic biases and errors—reliable at times, and unreliable at others. Memories are a combination of new and old knowledge, personal beliefs, and one's own and others' expectations. We blend these ingredients in forming a past that conforms to one's haphazardly accurate view of oneself and the world.

If you all really believed in demonic possession, then this situation, perhaps with somebody who was suffering from schizophrenia (which could actually be triggered by his consumption of alcohol - as alcohol & other drugs can trigger somebody's schizophrenic behaviour[1] - your beliefs created certain expectations you attribute to demonic possession and remember the situation as such. However, the experience may not have been the case. You may have a schizophrenic who NEEDS help from a professional. You say he was violent too, this is another symptom of it and it also suggests the urgency of him seeing a medical professional because it could be dangerous.

With ALL this in mind, I'm going to quote myself:

Quote from: Me
On the note of exorcism, you can't give us ANY actual proof that demon possession is real, but simply what you and other claim to witness or what you interpret as demonic possession and seek to exorcise these people. Surely with how common so-called exorcisms are we'd have something conclusive? Instead, this practice can lead to the death of so-called 'possessed' people. http://whatstheharm.net/exorcisms.html

I think with this dangerous superstition, there is a severe call for proof on this.

Because I feel this needs to addressed. The superstition of Exorcism is dangerous, so we need strong evidence to suggest it actually ISN'T a superstition, because you're talking about a harmful practice and if demonic possession is just a myth, it's a practice that NEEDS to be stopped.
 1. again, my example is my uncle, who drinks & takes drugs, despite being a schizophrenic
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Grimm on April 27, 2012, 07:42:21 AM
For clarity:
We were called to a non believers house.  The house in the community we live in is know for "ghost " activity.  The family would report to us that kitchen drawers would be open and even knives being thrown at members of the family.  They all reported seeing dark wispy figures in their rooms and sounds such as foot steps, voices, and thumps. 

I've been in homes like that - what's odd about those houses is that the residents always seem to see these things, but never when non-residents are present.  That is:  bring a skeptic, and nothing happens. 

This isn't an uncommon phenomenon - it's akin to a 'shared delusion', but that seems such a clinical way of putting what is a rather remarkable and very human experience:  we both want to believe and trust those who share our existence, who are within our circle of friends.  It's almost like going to the movies, actually.

When you go to a film, your brain actually begins the experience with the idea that you're willing to allow whatever the filmmaker wants to show you to affect you.  In a good film, they take this willingness to believe and use it to drive you into suspension of disbelief, where the emotional impact of the story gains incredible weight and, for at least the time you're watching the film, some part of you believes in that film's reality.

It happens all the time in 'ghost hauntings' - you go in prepared to see a ghost, ready to believe.  This makes it easier, when the house creaks or someone forgets to close a drawer, to draw the conclusion that these odd, explainable events really have no explanation. 

.. and that's a dime summary.  The real phenomenon is far more interesting and exciting, as reality is prone to be, than can be adequately explained in a short space like this one.

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This particular night the young man was drunk and challenged the what ever was in the house to dwell within him.  He open a legalistic door which the demon walked through.  The young man became violent as he was speaking in multiple voices to the family.  The went further to physical violence in which the husband physically choked the young man out to get him under control.  When we arrived the young man had black eyes, spoke in multiple voices, and stated that there were many in him. 

When you arrived, the 'husband' had been in a physical altercation with the young man, including choking.  This is the first piece of actual 'evidence' you're presenting; this 'legalistic door' that you're bringing up and the events of the challenge?  Anecdotal at best.

Why do demons have rules?  Who sets those rules?  What are the basis for your assertions about them, beyond popular culture's perception of Catholic mythology?  Why is it that every person who does something similar doesn't have the same outcome - or even a significant percentage? 

Then you arrive.  I can class this in 'eyewitness testimony', which is the weakest form of evidence.  To-wit:  "the young man had black eyes."  Was the house lighting poor?  Were you mistaking an embolism (which can cause the breaking of blood vessels in the sclera of the eyes and is often a secondary effect of violent choking or eye trauma, say, from punching) for a supernatural effect?  (Anecdotally:  I'm a diver.  I've seen a fellow surface too quickly, and get ocular edema - which, among other rather horrifying symptoms, made their eyes look wholly black.)  Did he have trauma from rubbing or clawing at his own eyes?  Did he normally wear contacts, which can exacerbate injury? 

You state that the young man was drunk.  This raises other questions:  how drunk?  How much did he have to drink that had yet to enter his system?  When you arrived, was he recovering or was his BAC still increasing?  What is the man's history while drunk - is he a violent or manic drunk? 

We now have a potential alternate explanation:  living in a house where the young man believed there to be a haunting, he got quite drunk and, with the egging on of his friends, 'opened himself to the influences of the house'.  Under chemical (depressive) influence, in the ambiance of the party that would lead to that sort of nonsense, and given the belief of the group in the house's haunting... well, it's a fairly common thing to 'break' into something like what you're describing. 

Additionally, this is a very 'hollywood' description of a possession.  The parallels to common and mass-consumed media are strong.  This should be cause for suspicion:  why would a 'possession' match up to the usual symptoms expressed by the media, when middle-ages documentation of possession is as varied as can be?  No alternate symptoms are present, and no 'expression of the supernatural' exists beyond how the boy acts.

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By the way the pastor I was with holds a doctorate in counseling and he interviewed the young man.  In the misty of all that was going on we finally hear the young man's voice.  through a process he accepted Christ giving us authority to move forward.  If he had not accepted Christ we would have walked away.  Through prayer, and spiritual discernment God delivered the young man. 

Did you state that 'Christ could fix him', or some other similar expression, at any time?  Did you ever express doubt in the possession?  Did you enter the area with serious faces and already talking about demons, or did you come in (as a counsellor should) with the best smile you could manage and comforting words?

When viewing the young man's distress, did this councellor ask about drugs, alcohol, and precursor events?  Did he check for tracks and ask about medications?  Was there any discussion of the gentleman's mental state, history, or other potentially relevant issues?  After the expression of violence, did he call medical professionals?

(In the last case, if not, then he's in gross professional dereliction.)

Did your actions lead to the suggestion that behaving in the manner you expressed (accepting Christ in that moment) would lead to a lessoning of mental distress, and if not then he would have no help?  (If so, then what you did, essentially, was offer a sort of mental suggestion to an inebriated and distressed individual to commit to an activity to ease suffering.  I'm not shocked he acquiesced.)

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I will discuss this with the people involved but I am very reluctant due to the abusive nature of people here.  I am not schizophrenic but it is so like the medical field to just throw labels on people. 

Disagreement is not abuse.  On the other hand, your casual dismissal of the 'medical field' implies that you are utterly unwilling to accept that there may be a physical (or purely mental) cause of the symptoms you dealt with.  This implies that you have absolutely no training that could help you separate purely medical causes (or a psychotic break) from demon possession, which will lead you to misclassification.

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I would love to go to an mental hospital with the gifting God has given me and prove to you God's discerning power.  You do not have to tell me anything about the people I will let god.  Prove me wrong or right.  But would you have the mental ability to handle truth if you saw.  The answer is probably no.  You in your ration mind with see and justify so you do not have to believe it.   

... which is further identified here.  I live in Chattanooga, TN - if you're nearby, I'll gladly go with you to Moccasin Bend (our local inpatient psychiatric facility) and, if the doctors will allow it and you won't make patients' situations worse, I'll document everything that happens in several media.  We can arrange this, and you're welcome.

By the by, if you want to say how bad we are, tossing insults yourself about people's mental abilities is quite dangerous, especially given that your anecdote implies a certain amount of criminal and professional malfesance, at least on your partner's part.

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To reiterate  was with a trained counselor and this was not something made up in our minds.  It was real whether you choose to believe it or not.  Deception is the plan of any enemy and the best part of deception is not knowing you are being deceived.  Ever person cn be decieved one way or another. 

I have no doubt that you believe you experienced these events as described.  However, my question for you is:  how much of what you experienced is colored by your own belief?

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You want proof ask emily how she slept after inviting a legion of demon in.  Do not play with this demonic Rhelm!

hey, Emily, how did you sleep?

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Just becuase you do not believe it does not mean it is not real.  I have never seen you do this mean you are not real.  All the posting could be one person with multiple personals.  Thus I am not  real and that makes you a schizophrenic.

No.  That entire solipsism ... bit.. of nonsense there is just very, very silly.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Nick on April 27, 2012, 07:47:47 AM
Nathan, I welcome a demon to come take me over.  As a matter of fact...I challenge one to do so.  Come get me demon (do I have to put salt on it's tail and dance around or what?).  Here demon, here demon, come get me.

OK, we'll see what happens.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on April 27, 2012, 07:48:44 AM
Nathan, I welcome a demon to come take me over.  As a matter of fact...I challenge one to do so.  Come get me demon (do I have to put salt on it's tail and dance around or what?).  Here demon, here demon, come get me.

OK, we'll see what happens.

I'll be over in a second. ;)
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: hickdive on April 27, 2012, 07:58:56 AM
If he had not accepted Christ we would have walked away.

Just to be clear would you clarify this please?

If the victim had not accepted christ would you have refused to help him because:

(A) Your only means of helping him was through his acceptance of christ or

(B) You would refuse assistance (and more specifically your pastor, 'a trained counsellor' would also have refused assistance) to someone who would not accept your world view, even under duress?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: kaziglu bey on April 27, 2012, 08:15:54 AM
I am asking opinion and belief of individual (thank you for the correction).  You are asking for proof. 
If one's opinion is not supported by any kind of evidence, it isn't worth much. Given the complete lack of evidence in regards to demons, it is safe to conclude that demons do not, in fact, exist.[1] In the case of demons, absence of evidence is evidence of absence. By their very nature, the presence of demons would be quite apparent to all. Pretty hard to miss a super powerful being that is hell bent on death, destruction and misery for mankind.
 1.  I anticipate an objection to this statement. However, to be clear, evidence is only required for a positive claim. The claim "Leprechauns exist" requires evidence for belief. Not believing in Leprechauns is the default position, so to say, and does not require evidence to support it, just as not believing in demons is the default position in this case. Indeed, it is by definition impossible to have evidence for something that doesn't exist, since, not existing, it can leave no trace to be detected. I would really hope that is self evident.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on April 27, 2012, 08:53:34 AM
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This is the first piece of actual 'evidence' you're presenting; this 'legalistic door' that you're bringing up and the events of the challenge?  Anecdotal at best.
We found about the altercation three days later during our follow up. 
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Why do demons have rules?
  The universe is set up on rule/ laws/ and principles.   God is Holy and as such has authority over them.  To think everything we see and the forces holding this planet and universe together.  There are laws of physics and laws of nature. There are processes no one can argue.  I hope we can agree on that.
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Who sets those rules?
  You know my answer to this, God is a go of order and as such set the rules long ago. Chaos does not bring order.  only order can bring order. 
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What are the basis for your assertions about them, beyond popular culture's perception of Catholic mythology?
  I do not follow the catholic faith.  Religion is how man can be controled by other men.  Belief in Jesus's teaching and who he is allows us eternal freedom.  There is a big difference there.
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Why is it that every person who does something similar doesn't have the same outcome - or even a significant percentage?
  There can be multiple reasons. Unforgiven is a very powerful mental process that can block god from working in a person's life. A person that does not want god or to experience god mostlikely will not be touched by God. 
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/forgiveness/MH00131
 
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Was the house lighting poor?  Were you mistaking an embolism (which can cause the breaking of blood vessels in the sclera of the eyes and is often a secondary effect of violent choking or eye trauma, say, from punching) for a supernatural effect?
  Very Good Point. 
 
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Did he have trauma from rubbing or clawing at his own eyes?  Did he normally wear contacts, which can exacerbate injury?
  There was no visible trauma and he does not wear contacts. 
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how drunk?
  when we arrived it was reported he only had a few beers/ 3/4 4 hours before. 
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How much did he have to drink that had yet to enter his system?  When you arrived, was he recovering or was his BAC still increasing?  What is the man's history while drunk - is he a violent or manic drunk? 
These are very good questions I can not answer. 
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when middle-ages documentation of possession is as varied as can be?  No alternate symptoms are present, and no 'expression of the supernatural' exists beyond how the boy acts.
  I am interested to know the mileage documentation. 
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Did you state that 'Christ could fix him', or some other similar expression, at any time?  Did you ever express doubt in the possession?  Did you enter the area with serious faces and already talking about demons, or did you come in (as a counsellor should) with the best smile you could manage and comforting words? we entered the house with open minds.When viewing the young man's distress, did this counselor ask about drugs, alcohol, and precursor events?  Did he check for tracks and ask about medications?  Was there any discussion of the gentleman's mental state, history, or other potentially relevant issues?  After the expression of violence, did he call medical professionals?
yes we asked about drugs and looked for needle marks.  The young man was known to be of sound mental state. 
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Did your actions lead to the suggestion that behaving in the manner you expressed (accepting Christ in that moment) would lead to a lessoning of mental distress, and if not then he would have no help?  (If so, then what you did, essentially, was offer a sort of mental suggestion to an inebriated and distressed individual to commit to an activity to ease suffering.  I'm not shocked he acquiesced.)
  We did discuss God's love for him
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Disagreement is not abuse.  On the other hand, your casual dismissal of the 'medical field' implies that you are utterly unwilling to accept that there may be a physical (or purely mental) cause of the symptoms you dealt with.  This implies that you have absolutely no training that could help you separate purely medical causes (or a psychotic break) from demon possession, which will lead you to misclassification.
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  I total disagree.  the Medical profession is needed to help people work through issues in their life.  I apologize if you think I am belittling the medical field.  I also know that it is human nature to do what you know and people like to throw labels and diagnosis.
   
... which is further identified here.  I live in Chattanooga, TN - if you're nearby, I'll gladly go with you to Moccasin Bend (our local inpatient psychiatric facility) and, if the doctors will allow it and you won't make patients' situations worse, I'll document everything that happens in several media.  We can arrange this, and you're welcome.
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  My schedule is very full full but let me see what I can do about coming out this summer.  I will PM you my Phone number if that is OK?

By the by, if you want to say how bad we are, tossing insults yourself about people's mental abilities is quite dangerous, especially given that your anecdote implies a certain amount of criminal and professional malfesance, at least on your partner's part.

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To reiterate  was with a trained counselor and this was not something made up in our minds.  It was real whether you choose to believe it or not.  Deception is the plan of any enemy and the best part of deception is not knowing you are being deceived.  Ever person cn be deceived one way or another. 

I have no doubt that you believe you experienced these events as described.  However, my question for you is:  how much of what you experienced is colored by your own belief.
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  it is my belief that placed my in the situation so I would say it is all my belief just like your belief system does not lead to that place. It is OK to have disagreement. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: velkyn on April 27, 2012, 09:20:37 AM
i am answering on my phone so please forgive the typos

the house was demonically charged.  the people living there were making fun of it and thought it was cool.
one night a guy was drunk.  he was not a believer nor was he seeking god.   he challenged the thing to dwell within him.  the demon entered him and took control.  by the time we arrived his eyes were completely black.
he would be himself one minute and then something else.  demon only have permission when we let them.  the man spoke in different voices.  spit at his dog tags which were blessed prior to his military departure to iran. 
he was violent.  in the mist of all this when mike was speaking we asked him if would receive christ. he said yes.  we asked who he was and he said many. balith was another name given to us. 
Three hours later he had peace.

There are people that still live in the house that are not believers that can verify what i am saying.

who are they? Phone numbers?  address?

now, I've seen other theists make the exact same claims.  So can a Wiccan dispel these "demons" too?  A Muslim Imam?  An Hindu guru?  A tribal witch doctor?  They make the same baseless claims as you.  I'm guessing yuo don't believe their claims.  Why should we believe yours? 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Argyle on April 27, 2012, 09:44:52 AM
One of my favorite posts of all time was in a discussion I had with a theist. I had completely flattened one of his arguments, and his response was to tell me that I was being inspired by demons to combat his religion.

I responded quite calmly that I was also being influenced by demons to put him on ignore.(http://www.isgodimaginary.com/forum/Smileys/IGI%20Smileys/looney.gif)
Once someone is convinced that your use of systematic logic and epistemic integrity are evidence of demon possession, it becomes very difficult to have any kind of reasonable conversation.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: vipersgirl49 on April 27, 2012, 10:26:45 AM
I do believe in demons and demon possession...As myself and my whole family experienced it first hand for almost 7 months..It is not something to be messed around with..Things can get bad and very dangerous quickly if not handled properly..Demons have abilities beyond what most think unless experienced themselves..They can possess..growl...speak...move things...throw things...and even physically harm you.. Try walking out of your kitchen and having knifes come flying at you from all directions but u cant see where they are originating from and your the only one there at the present moment...or having someone be taken over (possessed) by a demon right next to you Black eyes and growling telling you it can kill you and everyone in your house if it wanted to..At that moment there is only 1 answer and that IS GOD there is no one or nothing else who can defeat a demon literally rid you of that demon. I have lived this 1st hand. There are hundreds upon hundreds of people who have gone through this or are going through it some tell some don't..why because narrow minded people judge them and criticize them so they keep quiet. I myself refuse to keep quiet..There are so many people who need to know that they are NOT alone..They are never alone because they have God with them 100% at all times..but that they are not alone in dealing with a demon or a demon possessed person. There are a lot of us out there. As far as evidence goes..these things are coy and sneaky it is not easy to capture "evidence" for instance during this time we were dealing with the demon in our home it possessed a friend of ours her eyes turned completely black and her voice was male not female we recorded it on our digital camera when played back the video was pure black and her voice was normal..Demons have the ability to mess with things..electronics...lights...even just your everyday normal household things.. Keep an open mind and always remember God WILL  always see you through..If you are someone who has dealt with this first hand do NOT under any circumstance let anyone defer you and try to convince you that you are crazy God and we know that you are not!
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on April 27, 2012, 10:28:18 AM
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The human mind is very easily deceived; a holdover from when it was safer to run from an imagined lion in the tall grass than fail to spot a real one. You and I have the luxury of living in a time when human inquiry and endeavor has paid off in ways literally unimaginable to our ancestors. That you choose to remain cocooned in your bubble of delusion and ignorance, while surrounded by opportunities to step out of it, astounds and saddens me.

So you admit you can be decieved?  are you being decieved thinking this world is all that exists.  People believe in UFO's are they crazy even after photos.

What about the sounds being heard all over the world.    Thousands heard it and it made the news are they crazy. 
can t be explained.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rowqeNTsaGs
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on April 27, 2012, 10:32:36 AM
I'm sorry, but the only answer to this much stupidity is this:
(http://dailyfacepalm.chillpages.com/stroage-pit/uploads/2010/08/1272303749024.png)
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Emily on April 27, 2012, 10:49:07 AM
You want proof ask emily how she slept after inviting a legion of demon in.  Do not play with this demonic Rhelm!

I actually slept great. Thanks for asking! Honestly (since my husband is out of town with a few of his buddies) perhaps the best sleep I had in years. Two strange things did happen, however. One, I woke up to go to the bathroom, flicked on the light and got a little bit of a shock (my husband is remodeling the bathroom and there is no faceplate on the switch, but I've never been shocked before.), and two my coffee pot didn't brew  :(. The pot is set on a timer and it didn't go off, which kind of made me upset.

But nothing really out of the ordinary. I didn't get any close encounters and as far as I can tell I am not demonically possessed. I am not saying demons weren't here, but maybe they mistakenly possessed my sister instead of me.[1]

But yeah, I kind of feel disappointed and angry that nothing happened.  >:(

-M
 1. she's at school, as far as I know, and haven't seen her at all today. I'll ask how she's doing when I call her during her lunch.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Emily on April 27, 2012, 10:56:51 AM
Regarding the video, Nate, I am a bit disturbed at the lack of police investigating it. Unless the sound is drowning out the sirens it seems local authorities are not even looking into it. Also, no news crew either. Didn't you say this made it on the news. What news channel. A lot of new stations have news archives. I'd be interested browsing those archives to see what the news headlines have to say about this.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: velkyn on April 27, 2012, 11:04:50 AM
I do believe in demons and demon possession...As myself and my whole family experienced it first hand for almost 7 months..It is not something to be messed around with.
  So, you are from Amityville?  I hear clamis of this and of course see no evidence being presented. 
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.Things can get bad and very dangerous quickly if not handled properly..Demons have abilities beyond what most think unless experienced themselves..They can possess..growl...speak...move things...throw things...and even physically harm you..
Again, evidence.  You sound like you are repeating Hollywood nonsense.
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Try walking out of your kitchen and having knifes come flying at you from all directions but u cant see where they are originating from and your the only one there at the present moment...or having someone be taken over (possessed) by a demon right next to you Black eyes and growling telling you it can kill you and everyone in your house if it wanted to..
No evidence of this has ever been shown to objective observers.  And why don’t these things kill “everyone in the house”?  What is your excuse that these demons do nothing that anyone can actually see who is looking for them and who doesn’t seem to want attention? 
[uote]At that moment there is only 1 answer and that IS GOD there is no one or nothing else who can defeat a demon literally rid you of that demon[/quote] or you are mentally ill or you are lying and none of this is real.   
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I have lived this 1st hand. There are hundreds upon hundreds of people who have gone through this or are going through it some tell some don't..why because narrow minded people judge them and criticize them so they keep quiet. I myself refuse to keep quiet..
Then my dear, evidence please. 
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There are so many people who need to know that they are NOT alone..They are never alone because they have God with them 100% at all times..but that they are not alone in dealing with a demon or a demon possessed person. There are a lot of us out there. As far as evidence goes..these things are coy and sneaky it is not easy to capture "evidence"
nice excuse there. If these were so real and your god was real, why doesn’t it do something to allow others to believe people like you?  Does your god like to see you ridiculed? 
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for instance during this time we were dealing with the demon in our home it possessed a friend of ours her eyes turned completely black and her voice was male not female we recorded it on our digital camera when played back the video was pure black and her voice was normal.
Funny how no one but gullible theists ever see this.  Again, your god sure seems impotent.  Then you go into claiming that demons can mess with things.  Evidence of this?  I’ve had Wicca aquaintances claim that they could affect electronics.  Poor things, when they fail it’s because an “unbeliever” is in the area. 

As for your claims that this god will always see people through, that’s quite a lie, viper.   How many Christians do you think were on the Titanic?  How many Jews do you think were in the concentration camps?  There are too many sad instances where your claims that god will always see you through are shown to be lies.  Pity that you feel you must say such nonsense.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on April 27, 2012, 11:21:54 AM
Regarding the video, Nate, I am a bit disturbed at the lack of police investigating it. Unless the sound is drowning out the sirens it seems local authorities are not even looking into it. Also, no news crew either. Didn't you say this made it on the news. What news channel. A lot of new stations have news archives. I'd be interested browsing those archives to see what the news headlines have to say about this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgApuk0Sfek&feature=related

You can not refute this
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Emily on April 27, 2012, 11:30:40 AM
Look, I don't want to watch a 17 minute long youtube video. You claim these sounds made news headlines. I claim news stations have archives. I asked you to provide what station was covering these sounds so I can browse the archives to see what happened. Can you provide the official headlines and text from the news sources covering these sounds?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: kaziglu bey on April 27, 2012, 11:36:26 AM
NATHAN, UFO means unidentified flying object, not unidentified sounds. Just because we do not know what the explanation for something is, it doesn't mean that it is UFOs or Jesus or demons or Voldemort or any such nonsense. It just means we don't know what it is. Admittedly the sounds in the video are odd, and I couldn't identify them, but the video also seems likely to be staged. It is like background sound effects. It's like a really horrible Blair Witch type home horror movie. Any additional/more reliable evidence of this phenomenon?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on April 27, 2012, 11:36:33 AM
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I do believe in demons and demon possession...As myself and my whole family experienced it first hand for almost 7 months..It is not something to be messed around with..Things can get bad and very dangerous quickly if not handled properly..Demons have abilities beyond what most think unless experienced themselves..They can possess..growl...speak...move things...throw things...and even physically harm you.. Try walking out of your kitchen and having knifes come flying at you from all directions but u cant see where they are originating from and your the only one there at the present moment...


Well vipersgirl, how about showing us some evidence for it? I would ask for a picture of the knife wounds, but they could be just from other incidents that wasn’t caused by some ‘supernatural’ things. I don’t believe in evil spirits because I personally looked into the stories, viewed videos, and heard testimonies of people who proclaimed they witnessed the demonic spirits or possessions.

The problem is is that the brain is imperfect and if you see something you’re unsure of, your mind tries to make sense of it. The thing is, your mind is highly unreliable in seeing what is factual. Also, there are mental illnesses that can be like schizophrenic. Some people would sometimes be under the influence of drugs that causes hallucination, including alcohol.

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or having someone be taken over (possessed) by a demon right next to you Black eyes and growling telling you it can kill you and everyone in your house if it wanted to..At that moment there is only 1 answer and that IS GOD there is no one or nothing else who can defeat a demon literally rid you of that demon.

Well which God would that be? There are thousands of gods. There are different religions that believed in some form of demonic possessions and believed that they can repel evil spirits. Some Shinto priests believes they have the power to repel evil entities, some hindu priests believes they have the power. Your religion isn’t the only one who thinks they can have ‘demonic possessions’ or ‘evil entity haunting a place.’

If there had been no one who believes in ‘demonic possessions’ but knowledge of medical studies, we would be, ‘oh this person is suffering schizophrenia. Let’s take care of this fellow.’ As a previous poster had said, it’s not good to make a schizophrenic person believe they’re possessed by demons.’

Thousands of years ago, people have no idea what was going on when their friend, family member, or their neighbor was acting weird and try to make sense of it.

Quote
I have lived this 1st hand. There are hundreds upon hundreds of people who have gone through this or are going through it some tell some don't..why because narrow minded people judge them and criticize them so they keep quiet. I myself refuse to keep quiet..There are so many people who need to know that they are NOT alone..They are never alone because they have God with them 100% at all times..but that they are not alone in dealing with a demon or a demon possessed person.

So you would rather we just accept that some evil entities exist without proof? Why has scientists never found a single evil entity? This is because the whole ‘demonic possession’ is just the state of mind. As I said, I’ve seen videos of the ‘possessed victims’ and saw nothing more than convulsion and anger. The people who were ‘possessed’ were believers and have suffered some illness. They were told many things that may make them ‘possessed’ through basic human nature like emotional feelings or mental stress, and more. It’s not that we want to ignore or make people who suffered be kept silent, we want to make sense of it all by evidence. Often times when there was an exorcism, a victim dies because of the exorcist’s cruel methods, not because of some evil entity. These people were suffering illnesses and they were simply thought to be possessed basically by their own religious belief. If you didn’t believe in ‘demonic possessions’ you would think it’s something entirely different.

Quote
There are a lot of us out there. As far as evidence goes..these things are coy and sneaky it is not easy to capture "evidence" for instance during this time we were dealing with the demon in our home it possessed a friend of ours her eyes turned completely black and her voice was male not female we recorded it on our digital camera when played back the video was pure black and her voice was normal..Demons have the ability to mess with things..electronics...lights...even just your everyday normal household things.. Keep an open mind and always remember God WILL  always see you through..If you are someone who has dealt with this first hand do NOT under any circumstance let anyone defer you and try to convince you that you are crazy God and we know that you are not!

It’s not that I think you’re crazy, it’s that you’re confusing yourself with what is real and what isn’t. I never once seen anyone in person act demonic in person, I never felt any evil entity take control of me.

I will say this which is true and it scared me. When I was little, I was on the top bunk, somehow my mouth moved on its own and sound was coming out of my mouth. It scared me, but I’m still not sure what it is. But people like you would tell me I’m being possessed. Had you done so, I would have believed it and my mind would absorb the thought and I would have made myself paranoid and unable to differentiate between reality and fiction.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: velkyn on April 27, 2012, 11:43:36 AM
my god, the aliens have vuvuzelas! 

Nate, unknown doesn't mean aliens or your primitive god. the first sounds are nothing special. wind can produce them.  the second bunch, highway noice or ships; since there is no location given, they could be anything and not some idiot's paranoid fantasy.  This is classic conspiracy nonsense, vague claims galore. I'm sure idiots who didn't know about sonic booms would have freak on the farm I grew up on in the early 70s since jet fighters did dog fights and practiced supersonic flight overhead constantly.  The cows hated it. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on April 27, 2012, 11:48:50 AM
my god, the aliens have vuvuzelas! 

Nate, unknown doesn't mean aliens or your primitive god. the first sounds are nothing special. wind can produce them.  the second bunch, highway noice or ships; since there is no location given, they could be anything and not some idiot's paranoid fantasy.  This is classic conspiracy nonsense, vague claims galore. I'm sure idiots who didn't know about sonic booms would have freak on the farm I grew up on in the early 70s since jet fighters did dog fights and practiced supersonic flight overhead constantly.  The cows hated it.
I agree. When you hear a sound you're not familar with, it doesn't mean anything. There's always an explanation for sounds we never heard of before.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Argyle on April 27, 2012, 11:56:30 AM
Debunked
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XDFNM86I2-U#! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XDFNM86I2-U#!)

And the funniest part is that the original sound from one of the two original videos was lifted from the trailer from the movie "Red State" which is about a bunch of crazy fundamentalist Christians.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySIHIDlp39Y (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySIHIDlp39Y)

The one at the baseball game was caused by lightning striking the PA system, and this was verified by people on location at the baseball game, this is why the crowd cheers when the sound stops, because it was COMING FROM THE PA SYSTEM. >_<

The Kiev video needs a laugh track :P and all the rest of the hoax videos copy it.

The irony is so thick you can cut it with a knife and serve it up with a side of "check your facts!".

This took me 5 seconds to find. Did you even look?

If it was heard around the world why didn't ANYONE ON THIS FORUM HEAR IT?

edit: fixed the red state video link
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: screwtape on April 27, 2012, 11:58:06 AM
vipersgirl,

first of all, I don't believe a word you said.  But let's for a moment assume you are correct.  You have described a situation where this demon has acted aggessively beligerent and in ways that could harm or kill you and your family. 

If satan's goal is to tempt people away from god, how does that help satan?  Let's look at what you say happened:

At that moment there is only 1 answer and that IS GOD there is no one or nothing else who can defeat a demon literally rid you of that demon.

So this demonic experience did what, now?  It pushed you right into the arms of jesus H christ.  So who benefitted?  god, not satan.  If the devil is that stupid/ incompetent why is anyone worried? 

these things are coy and sneaky...

really?  because you just described it as the opposite of sneaky.  You described a bumbling idiot. 

Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: kaziglu bey on April 27, 2012, 12:03:27 PM
Also, at least one of those incidents was shown to have an industrial explanation, and another is an admitted hoax. http://news.discovery.com/human/mysterious-sounds-reported-around-the-world-120208.html
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Nick on April 27, 2012, 12:23:13 PM
I do believe in demons and demon possession...As myself and my whole family experienced it first hand for almost 7 months..It is not something to be messed around with..Things can get bad and very dangerous quickly if not handled properly..Demons have abilities beyond what most think unless experienced themselves..They can possess..growl...speak...move things...throw things...and even physically harm you.. Try walking out of your kitchen and having knifes come flying at you from all directions but u cant see where they are originating from and your the only one there at the present moment...or having someone be taken over (possessed) by a demon right next to you Black eyes and growling telling you it can kill you and everyone in your house if it wanted to..At that moment there is only 1 answer and that IS GOD there is no one or nothing else who can defeat a demon literally rid you of that demon. I have lived this 1st hand. There are hundreds upon hundreds of people who have gone through this or are going through it some tell some don't..why because narrow minded people judge them and criticize them so they keep quiet. I myself refuse to keep quiet..There are so many people who need to know that they are NOT alone..They are never alone because they have God with them 100% at all times..but that they are not alone in dealing with a demon or a demon possessed person. There are a lot of us out there. As far as evidence goes..these things are coy and sneaky it is not easy to capture "evidence" for instance during this time we were dealing with the demon in our home it possessed a friend of ours her eyes turned completely black and her voice was male not female we recorded it on our digital camera when played back the video was pure black and her voice was normal..Demons have the ability to mess with things..electronics...lights...even just your everyday normal household things.. Keep an open mind and always remember God WILL  always see you through..If you are someone who has dealt with this first hand do NOT under any circumstance let anyone defer you and try to convince you that you are crazy God and we know that you are not!
Man, this must be national NUT week.  All these poor people getting possessed by demons and needing their God to save them.  Why can't any of us (atheists) find a good demon to help us spread our vile message?  Nuts I tell you...all of them.

Hey, Vipergirl49...sounds like you and Nathan would hit it off...are you both signed up on that singles Christian dating form?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on April 27, 2012, 01:17:35 PM
The reason I showed you this is to prove how limited your thought process is. 

The sounds are real and are being heard all over the world.  You can sit and make as much fun as you want.  The best part of this whole webpage is you want proof not for proof sake but to tear it apart.

ABC news coverage of the sounds.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/lifestyle/2011/10/viewers-guess-what-causes-the-mysterious-hum/

You are all delusional and refuse to respond logically to proof being placed in front of you. 

BTW Viper girl was there.  I asked her to post infact she is the one that call us.  But again your mission is to destroy not to take eye witness accounts of situation as proven by the videos and picture because there is no way you could be wrong.  Your arrogance and lack of understand is truly disheartening. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on April 27, 2012, 01:26:02 PM
The reason I showed you this is to prove how limited your thought process is. 

The sounds are real and are being heard all over the world.  You can sit and make as much fun as you want.  The best part of this whole webpage is you want proof not for proof sake but to tear it apart.

ABC news coverage of the sounds.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/lifestyle/2011/10/viewers-guess-what-causes-the-mysterious-hum/

You are all delusional and refuse to respond logically to proof being placed in front of you. 

BTW Viper girl was there.  I asked her to post infact she is the one that call us.  But again your mission is to destroy not to take eye witness accounts of situation as proven by the videos and picture because there is no way you could be wrong.  Your arrogance and lack of understand is truly disheartening.

Wow Nathan, i feel sorry for you. Testimonies and videos are very poor evidence for proof. Can you trust a eye witness for anything they think they see? As for videos, there are very good doctored up videos that can easily fool the eyes. We're not delusional. We're rational and more logical than you think. We've basically brought you the reasons behind the sounds and about the mind and how flawed it is.

Arogance? It's disheartneing to see that you refuse to look at from other prospective and prefer that your beliefs are accurate no matter what anyone says. I don't think you came here for opinions, i think you came here to tell us this; demon possession is real and you'rer all arrogant unbelievers, so you're a meanie! That is what you sound like.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on April 27, 2012, 01:28:43 PM
Also, we're trying to offer reasons and facts to the claims you presented to us. I'm sorry you feel like we're just tearing you to shreds here, but videos and andecotes aren't good evidence.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: velkyn on April 27, 2012, 01:32:26 PM
The reason I showed you this is to prove how limited your thought process is. 

The sounds are real and are being heard all over the world.  You can sit and make as much fun as you want.  The best part of this whole webpage is you want proof not for proof sake but to tear it apart.
Wow, shown it's a fraud and you still keep lying.  If you hae real evidence, then it can't be torn apart.  You have failed to provide that for your sounds and your god.  It's the same old theistic whine that atheists "really" don't want evidence.  Unfortunately, they only whine that after their claims are shown to be wrong. 

Quote
ABC news coverage of the sounds.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/lifestyle/2011/10/viewers-guess-what-causes-the-mysterious-hum/
  No dear, this is a blog with people guessing, not news coverage.   Sigh, do you even read the links you post here in your desperation? 

Quote
You are all delusional and refuse to respond logically to proof being placed in front of you.
  Nope, but I am having fun watching you self-destruct. 
Quote
BTW Viper girl was there.  I asked her to post infact she is the one that call us.  But again your mission is to destroy not to take eye witness accounts of situation as proven by the videos and picture because there is no way you could be wrong.  Your arrogance and lack of understand is truly disheartening.
Wow, then we have two people who have no evidence for the same nonsense.  Yay!  People claiming to have seen things and to have had things happen with no evidence have no reason to be trusted.  I could say that I saw a house sized carnivorous purple and green furred fruit attacking my hometown but until we have some objective evidence, it's as silly as your and Vipergirl's claims.   
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Emily on April 27, 2012, 01:33:03 PM
You are all delusional and refuse to respond logically to proof being placed in front of you. 

Hey Nate, buddy... When you have proof of demonic possession and/or demons in general, we will listen. Neither you not vipergirl gave proof. You only gave what you saw and heard and attribute it to demons. You're little test on us failed miserably because as other people here have pointed out there is a reason for whatever sounds were being made.

Tim, KB, Screwtape and Velkyn all tore your and VP's argument apart. If that doesn't sit pretty with you then too bad. Keep living your life believing demons are real. Vipergirl's story seems like complete bullshit. As does yours.

Do you have anything substantial to add to your claim that demons are real? You know, like proof and such?

EDIT: And Nate, remember when you asked someone to see how I slept after challenging both god and satan to come to my home and possess it. Well, I spoke with my sister and she slept fine also. No possession yet. Perhaps she and I will try to get our home possessed tonight to encounter the same thing you and vipergirl both claim.

-M
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Historicity on April 27, 2012, 02:12:01 PM
The phenomenon to which he refers is The Hum.  I heard about it on TV a few years ago.  I can't see how someone can mix God or Satan into it.

The Wikipedia summarizes it here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hum)

Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Seppuku on April 27, 2012, 02:28:03 PM
The reason I showed you this is to prove how limited your thought process is. 

The sounds are real and are being heard all over the world.  You can sit and make as much fun as you want.  The best part of this whole webpage is you want proof not for proof sake but to tear it apart.

ABC news coverage of the sounds.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/lifestyle/2011/10/viewers-guess-what-causes-the-mysterious-hum/

You are all delusional and refuse to respond logically to proof being placed in front of you. 

BTW Viper girl was there.  I asked her to post infact she is the one that call us.  But again your mission is to destroy not to take eye witness accounts of situation as proven by the videos and picture because there is no way you could be wrong.  Your arrogance and lack of understand is truly disheartening.

How about you address people's fucking points before you start accusing people of being close minded and arrogant? I've given a perfectly good reason as to why we need evidence and why your eye witness accounts are an unreliable source of information. Yet they've been ignored. Others have made similar points and have also been ignore.

So you'd rather go "lalalalala I'm not listening" when somebody offers you something you don't want to hear and continue to expect us to answer YOUR claims and accuse us of being arrogant and deluded.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: naemhni on April 27, 2012, 02:37:25 PM
But again your mission is to destroy not to take eye witness accounts of situation as proven by the videos and picture because there is no way you could be wrong.

Nathan, we do not regard eyewitness testimony with a skeptical eye simply because it suits our agenda to do so.  We are skeptical about it because we know just how mind-bogglingly unreliable it is.

Here's one small demonstration out of many that one could show.  It's a simple little card trick in which the backs of the deck of cards start off blue and are magically turned red.  Watch the video and see whether you can spot the trick.  To date, I know of no one who has caught it (including me).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voAntzB7EwE
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Quesi on April 27, 2012, 02:50:15 PM
Nathan-

May I ask you your personal opinion on the Salem witches?   Were there demons possessing these little girls, thus justifying the execution of so many citizens who were harnessing the demons?   Or were these girls suffering from some sort of group psychosis? 

What is your interpretation of the events? 


Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Nick on April 27, 2012, 02:54:25 PM
Nathan, are you and those with you like "ghost Busters"?  Do you have those machines that suck up the demons?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: screwtape on April 27, 2012, 03:49:27 PM
You are all delusional and refuse to respond logically to proof being placed in front of you. 

yeah, that's it.  We're the delusional ones.


But again your mission is to destroy

No.  My mission is to understand and find the best explanation.  "demons did it" as an explanation has not been taken seriously at least four centuries.  Why are you trying to live in the ancient past? 

Let's try this - when your car makes a hiddeous squeal, lurches, produces copious smoke and stops working, do you suspect demonic possession? 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: magicmiles on April 27, 2012, 04:29:12 PM
Watch the video and see whether you can spot the trick.  To date, I know of no one who has caught it (including me).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voAntzB7EwE

I didn't (not surprising), but I was sure my wife would.

She didn't..great trick.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: nogodsforme on April 27, 2012, 05:48:36 PM

Let's try this - when your car makes a hiddeous squeal, lurches, produces copious smoke and stops working, do you suspect demonic possession?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFWea3Eu97E
Of course! Didn't you see this movie? Loved it--saw it at the theater when it came out. Talk about low budget horror. The lights flick on when it sees someone it wants to kill. The best part is after the car kills someone, it jiggles around like it's laughing. At the end you find out it was the devil. What a letdown. The most powerful evil force ever and it infects one car and menaces one little town?

Like these people who think the devil is haunting their house and possessing their family members. Uhhhh, we are talking Satan here. The most evil of all evil, the most powerful demonic being ever, the one challenge to the one true god. And he throws kitchen knives. Sigh.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Nick on April 27, 2012, 06:28:27 PM
And He must not throw them very well. ;)
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: nogodsforme on April 28, 2012, 03:40:39 PM
Exactly. Not only is Satan is reduced from wrestling with Almighty God himself to throwing kitchen knives at random American families. He misses! The family lives to tell the tale on the internet.

Maybe Satan needs glasses.

Or a bigger knife.
http://uploads.notempire.com/images/uploads/Untitled-107.jpg
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Hatter23 on April 29, 2012, 03:57:08 PM
Debunked:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XDFNM86I2-U
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Emily on April 29, 2012, 04:59:16 PM
^^^^By the way: v00d00sixx was a member of the forum known as crocoduck (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=1515). What happened to him?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Seppuku on April 29, 2012, 05:36:59 PM
Seemed to went off the forum radar soon after he started his YouTube channel, guessing he's putting his time and effort into that.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Hatter23 on April 30, 2012, 09:03:39 AM
I am asking opinion and belief of individual (thank you for the correction).  You are asking for proof.  You quesitons are not valid for this forum.  I personally believe in demons, I have seen them, I have experience interactions with them and wonder if any one else has. 


Asking for proof is not valid on a forum devoted to skepticism. Why thank you for coming out of credulousity land and deigning to inform us that we are doing the incorrect thing on our own forum.

Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Argyle on April 30, 2012, 11:38:38 AM
 :blank:
Your personal experience may be convincing to you, but it can never be sufficient evidence of a supernatural event to be convincing to others, especially those who employ even a modicum of skepticism.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on April 30, 2012, 01:24:47 PM
:blank:
Your personal experience may be convincing to you, but it can never be sufficient evidence of a supernatural event to be convincing to others, especially those who employ even a modicum of skepticism.

I concur. Now it seems to me that Nathan ran away from his thread. hmmm...
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Nick on April 30, 2012, 01:46:17 PM
Isn't it appanent to everyone.  The demons got to him.  They did not want to be exposed like that.  I bet he is barfing up green sh*t this very moment.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on April 30, 2012, 02:02:00 PM
Isn't it appanent to everyone.  The demons got to him.  They did not want to be exposed like that.  I bet he is barfing up green sh*t this very moment.

Bllllaaaarrrrggghhhh! Your mutha sucketh ***** in hell!! (Head spins)
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Hatter23 on April 30, 2012, 02:22:11 PM
Debunked
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XDFNM86I2-U#! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XDFNM86I2-U#!)


Sorry, should have seen that.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Argyle on April 30, 2012, 04:54:39 PM
Which kind of demon though.... There are so many to choose from. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Buffyverse_villains_and_supernatural_beings#Demons.2C_Half-Demons_and_Old_Ones)
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: jeremy0 on April 30, 2012, 05:36:25 PM
If you look at brain scans of people that are demonically 'possessed', it sure does look like devil-horns.. [1]

Funny how we can't get past the dark ages.. Do we actually live in 2000 AD, or is this still 30 AC?  I can't tell!![2]


[1] This is a joke..
[2]  This is also a joke..  Only seriously, can we get out of the freaking dark ages already?  Aren't we in an age of vast technology and knowledge?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Ambassador Pony on April 30, 2012, 06:06:29 PM
These threads make me miss Raymond.

It's fucking bullshit he's not here.

I miss the colleague I once had, who would lay it out for this McFucktard du jour.

Nathan, what do you contribute to your society?

 

Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: kaziglu bey on April 30, 2012, 06:16:09 PM
Which kind of demon though.... There are so many to choose from. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Buffyverse_villains_and_supernatural_beings#Demons.2C_Half-Demons_and_Old_Ones)
I'm sure they are TrueChristiantm demons. It's the only way they could actually be real.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Tinyal on April 30, 2012, 06:20:51 PM
Ya Pony, I really, really miss Ray as well :(  He & I would occasionally PM in the background - he had quite a way with words which always reminded me of Chris Hitchens (I told him that once, he laughed and laughed...)

Among others, Ray's posts and side chats really helped me to get closer to speaking my mind, to let loose on the idiocy when deserved (which, in my view, it frequently is).

It's my great loss that I never got a chance to meet or talk to Ray in person.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: HAL on April 30, 2012, 06:23:37 PM
I double dare a Demon to come into my house. My cats will scratch it's eyes out.

Come on Demon, come to Papa.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Argyle on April 30, 2012, 06:53:23 PM
Quote
According to the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, "In Chaldean mythology the seven evil deities were known as shedu, storm-demons, represented in ox-like form." [14] They were represented as winged bulls, derived from the colossal bulls used as protective jinns of royal palaces.[15]

From Chaldea, the term shedu traveled to the Israelites. The writers of the Tanach applied the word as a dialogism to Canaanite deities.

There are indications that demons in popular Hebrew mythology were believed to come from the nether world.[16] Various diseases and ailments were ascribed to them, particularly those affecting the brain and those of internal nature. Examples include the catalepsy, headache, epilepsy, and nightmares. There also existed a demon of blindness, "Shabriri" (lit. "dazzling glare") who rested on uncovered water at night and blinded those who drank from it.

Demons supposedly entered the body and caused the disease while overwhelming or "seizing" the victim. To cure such diseases, it was necessary to draw out the evil demons by certain incantations and talismanic performances, which the Essenes excelled at. Josephus, who spoke of demons as "spirits of the wicked which enter into men that are alive and kill them", but which could be driven out by a certain root,[17] witnessed such a performance in the presence of the Emperor Vespasian[18] and ascribed its origin to King Solomon. - Wikipedia

It's amazing to me that people who believe in Demons don't go and look up what their origin is.
Demons are simply the earliest form of disease theory. Some (like Josephus) actually believed they were the souls of the dead come to haunt or kill the leaving.

Then we discovered the germ theory of disease.
Suddenly POOF no more demons.

(http://www.cdosabandonware.com/images/smilies/gavel.gif) - case closed
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Seppuku on April 30, 2012, 07:48:39 PM
You know what bugs me with claims like these? How people just don't manage to get a photograph or record these things? Yes, I just did a quick look on YouTube and all I saw was people who might be just having a fit in which case medical help is best needed NOT an exorcism. And videos that weren't very clear and videos that clearly could be hoaxed, Anything that is photoshopped or faked in a some way can usually be debunked if people give it enough scrutiny. For example, the claim in this thread, the black eyes - having that documented would cause people to try and find a rational answer as to why that occurred. As far as I am aware there are no conditions that would cause it. Obviously, I'd remain sceptical, but at least it's evidence for people to explore and to try and better understand. Of course, there's other things that could be caught on film:

Quote
Sometimes they are translucent, others are black wisps.
Quote
the man spoke in different voices.
Quote
The family would report to us that kitchen drawers would be open and even knives being thrown at members of the family.  They all reported seeing dark wispy figures in their rooms and sounds such as foot steps, voices, and thumps. 

Also...

Quote
Three hours later he had peace.

In these three hours it seems it did not occur to anybody that it'd be a good idea to pick up a camera? With the 'moving' of objects, it's possible to fake and to do it convincingly well. I'm sorry, but if you've got a guy possessed by a demon for 3 hours, there's evidence you can gather. The rest could be photoshopped or rendered in a CGI program, but normally they can be scrutinised well enough to determine whether they're fake or not. It might not be substantial enough to be proof, but at least you'd have it documented. But this forum is full of sceptics, if an extraordinary claim is going to be made it'll need extraordinary evidence. If there were pics or a video, then we'd either have to call it fake or we'd find it harder to debunk.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Nick on April 30, 2012, 09:17:27 PM
I double dare a Demon to come into my house. My cats will scratch it's eyes out.

Come on Demon, come to Papa.
I tried that Hal.  Its been days now.  Nothing.  Damn demons just don't know a good thing when one is put before them.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on May 01, 2012, 01:45:03 AM
I double dare a Demon to come into my house. My cats will scratch it's eyes out.

Come on Demon, come to Papa.
I tried that Hal.  Its been days now.  Nothing.  Damn demons just don't know a good thing when one is put before them.

Look, dudes, I've been busy. I'll get on a plane ASAP.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Ambassador Pony on May 01, 2012, 05:28:59 AM
My cat is a demon. Right now she has total control over my wife and I. In addition, she destroys all nice things.

Our mantra now is " we can't have nice things".
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Anfauglir on May 01, 2012, 08:04:02 AM
Let's see how the story changes when examined.

one night a guy was drunk. 

This particular night the young man was drunk

Quote
how drunk?
  when we arrived it was reported he only had a few beers/ 3/4 4 hours before. 

You've gone from the man being D.R.U.N.K. when it suits you - but when its pointed out that someone drunk could easily hallucinate, all of us sudden its just "a few beers some time ago", so that you can claim that alchol was definitely NOT a factor.

If you can't keep your story straight, and you feel the need to embellish to get our attention, why on earth should we believe things happened the way you said?

Another point:

one night a guy ........Three hours later he had peace.

I find THIS the most interesting of all.  Its "one night" - so let's say after 8pm, likely later.  A guy in the house suddenly goes into one, going absolutely manic, to the extent he has to be forcibly restrained.

Do the others in the house call the cops?  The paramedics?  No......they call the local pastor.

Which is NOT the first reaction of your average Schmoe.  Its the first reaction of a group of people who already have a really strong belief in god and demons and other assorted woo, otherwise the first call would be to the emergency services.

And also, guys and gals, these guys were able - late at night - to get in touch with "the exorcist team" who arrived and dealt with everything in just a couple hours!  How lucky the pastor was in!  Indeed, how lucky that they had the right number already available......

You don't put an exorcists number on speed-dial on the off-chance.  You only do that if you already buy-in the to whole load of woo.  So this wasn't a random house, this was a house known for being "spooky", inhabited by a group who already really believed in demons and woo, to the extent that their first action was to call the local woo-doctor whose number they had to hand....perhaps because they were regulars in his church of woo.

Demons?  Don't make me laugh.  Mass hysteria and a suggestable bunch of folk already pre-programmed to accept a particular "explanation".
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: screwtape on May 01, 2012, 09:11:33 AM
How lucky the pastor was in!  Indeed, how lucky that they had the right number already available......

Not just that, but do you know how hard it is to find a pastor who buys into that malarkey?  Most clergypeople I've met would have said "he's drunk, don't bother me" or "take him to the hospital, don't bother me" or "I don't really do exorcisms, don't bother me".  People who believe in exorcism believe it is a special ritual that requires special training.  They think if you try to do an exorcism and do it wrong, the consequences can be terrible.

Lookey here:
http://aaeok.tripod.com/
Quote
  Exorcism/Deliverance is a serious field of expertise.  It is truly "Big-League."  Since it brings the exorcist into direct contact with demonic forces, a non-Christian performing exorcisms leaves himself open to demonic attacks and even demonic possession ...

The Christian exorcist also needs to be trained.  The wiles of the Devil are many.  He is very intelligent.  The Christian exorcist needs to know the tactics and tricks that demons often use during exorcism efforts.

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-7048649.html
Quote
Citing a shortage of priests who can perform the rite, the nation's Roman Catholic bishops are sponsoring a conference on how to conduct exorcisms.

http://www.ulc.org/training-education/obscure/the-occult/10-the-exorcism/
Quote
This religious rite is not to be taken lightly or engaged in by inexperienced ministers

http://religiousdemonology.com/QandA.htm
Quote
A formal exorcism can only be performed by a Priest under instruction of their Bishop. Laity should never, ever, attempt to perform an exorcism. You will not only fail but you will be putting yourself and everyone in the room in grave danger.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Nick on May 01, 2012, 09:58:51 AM
Can you sue a preacher for demon malpractice if he screws up an exorcism?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: kaziglu bey on May 01, 2012, 10:06:02 AM
Can you sue a preacher for demon malpractice if he screws up an exorcism?
I would love to be the Judge for such a case.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: nogodsforme on May 01, 2012, 04:02:18 PM
Hecky yeah. This guy is possessed for three hours? There are knives flying all over the place? Why isn't there a live feed from the local news? How come the people witnessing this don't document the happenings on their phones, cameras, computers, what have you, from different angles? Why don't these demon-haunted folks call the cops, the paramedics and the local news outlets? Why is this not on the front page of every newspaper and news website in the world?

Any professional-- reporter, scientist, doctor, law enforcement person-- would give their right arm to be the first person in human history to provide real documentation of a supernatural being. Yet these believers say that the "authorities want to cover this up".  Why would anyone want to keep this a secret if it is really happening? I guess to protect Satan. Since Satan can't look out for himself. &)
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on May 01, 2012, 06:51:17 PM
Hecky yeah. This guy is possessed for three hours? There are knives flying all over the place? Why isn't there a live feed from the local news? How come the people witnessing this don't document the happenings on their phones, cameras, computers, what have you, from different angles? Why don't these demon-haunted folks call the cops, the paramedics and the local news outlets? Why is this not on the front page of every newspaper and news website in the world?

Any professional-- reporter, scientist, doctor, law enforcement person-- would give their right arm to be the first person in human history to provide real documentation of a supernatural being. Yet these believers say that the "authorities want to cover this up".  Why would anyone want to keep this a secret if it is really happening? I guess to protect Satan. Since Satan can't look out for himself. &)

I  agree. It just confuses me that they, religious nuts, would defend their belief when asked for proof. The idea that "the authorities will want to cover it up" is idiotic. As you said, why would they want to cover it up if it's already happening? Also, if that is the best the devil can do, i'm not impressed!  ;D
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Nick on May 01, 2012, 08:26:24 PM
It's kind of like UFOs.  Those vids always look so fuzzy.  You would think someone would get a good shot.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Argyle on May 01, 2012, 08:45:53 PM
If they got a good shot, they'd identify it, and it wouldn't be a UFO anymore?  :?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: jeremy0 on May 01, 2012, 10:14:18 PM
Confirmed.  UFOs, demonic possession are correlated in a certain light...

Merely superstitions.  If we have been visited by aliens, it would be miraculous that they found us in such a short amount of time, especially since travelling really fast makes you travel forward in time - it's like they would have had to suspect that life may exist here - before the age of the dinosaurs, and oops - it does, so let's turn back to our own planet, only now we're about 100,000 years into the future at our home planet or something.  That would be a huge wasted effort.  I am siding with a body of thought that blasting our presence out to the universe is probably not a good idea, if we can imagine that an alien life able to reach us in a certain amount of time must be vastly more advanced in technology than we could imagine today..  but, there's a sci-fi movie for that.

The idea of demonic possession was already addressed above..  In essence, all superstitions, based on fear of something or the threat of something..
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 02, 2012, 02:00:09 PM

Quote
May I ask you your personal opinion on the Salem witches?   Were there demons possessing these little girls, thus justifying the execution of so many citizens who were harnessing the demons?   Or were these girls suffering from some sort of group psychosis? 

What is your interpretation of the events? 

I was not there nor were you therefore none of us have first hand knowledge as such I can not commit on the events.

If you are asking did people did without reason, one must honestly conclude that the evil hearts of man have killed people throughtout time whether it be under religious zealots and under greedy none religious people. 

Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 02, 2012, 02:05:35 PM
I am asking opinion and belief of individual (thank you for the correction).  You are asking for proof.  You quesitons are not valid for this forum.  I personally believe in demons, I have seen them, I have experience interactions with them and wonder if any one else has. 


Asking for proof is not valid on a forum devoted to skepticism. Why thank you for coming out of credulousity land and deigning to inform us that we are doing the incorrect thing on our own forum.


The problem is you don't want proof.  You do not have open minds.  All of you instantly go to defense mood and to prove you small worlds are the most important.  very sad. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 02, 2012, 02:06:59 PM
Quote
Isn't it appanent to everyone.  The demons got to him.  They did not want to be exposed like that.  I bet he is barfing up green sh*t this very moment.

Bllllaaaarrrrggghhhh! Your mutha sucketh ***** in hell!! (Head spins)

I rebuke the thought and idea and words written or spoken that I am going to hell in Jesus Name.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 02, 2012, 02:08:13 PM
Which kind of demon though.... There are so many to choose from. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Buffyverse_villains_and_supernatural_beings#Demons.2C_Half-Demons_and_Old_Ones)

Their are many demons to choose from.  Thousands to be exact.  Lucifer and the 13 demon kings.  You have no clue what you guys are facing. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Zankuu on May 02, 2012, 02:17:51 PM
Every time someone rebukes something in the name of Jesus, it reminds me of God's Warrior (http://freakipedia.net/index.php5?title=The_God_Warrior).
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: velkyn on May 02, 2012, 02:20:01 PM
The problem is you don't want proof.  You do not have open minds.  All of you instantly go to defense mood and to prove you small worlds are the most important.  very sad.

wow, nice lie there Natan.  You know, bearing false witness like your supposed god says not to do?   You have not provided any evidence.  If you had any, and not anedotes where there is nothing at all supporting such nonsense, I would be more than happy to consider it.  The world would be much more interested if there were demons, so I would welcome it.  But you have failed.  And have to resort to a lie to excuse yourself. 

Ooh, the 13 demon kings.  So you know this hmmmm?   Sounds like someone's been cribbing from the Deities and Demigods book.   ;D
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 02, 2012, 02:21:07 PM
Quote
You know what bugs me with claims like these? How people just don't manage to get a photograph or record these things? Yes, I just did a quick look on YouTube and all I saw was people who might be just having a fit in which case medical help is best needed NOT an exorcism. And videos that weren't very clear and videos that clearly could be hoaxed, Anything that is photoshopped or faked in a some way can usually be debunked if people give it enough scrutiny. For example, the claim in this thread, the black eyes - having that documented would cause people to try and find a rational answer as to why that occurred. As far as I am aware there are no conditions that would cause it. Obviously, I'd remain sceptical, but at least it's evidence for people to explore and to try and better understand. Of course, there's other things that could be caught on film:

There are plenty of exorcisms on Youtube.  Yes some are real and others are not.  No matter the proof you will not believe what you see unless you experience it yourself.  That is the fact and no one can refute your skepticism has blinded your ability to see things in a different light.  It has to be a personal experience which you refuse to have.  Even people on this forum, if you were to experience it, would like the time of Jesus not accept Him.  So ultimately you and I are wasting our time debating something you refuse to accept as truth and I refuse to let go of the truth.  Lord I pray for the hardened hearts and ask you to let them see truth.  Bind the things not of you and release them long enough to make the choice of truth.   

I love that science can continually be wrong with evidence, but it is accepted as truth. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Hatter23 on May 02, 2012, 02:22:19 PM

Their are many demons to choose from.  Thousands to be exact.  Lucifer and the 13 demon kings.  You have no clue what you guys are facing.

Yes, I do. They are called superstitions. I am not facing anything except for a world populated with credulous people like you. That is much more scary, because it is real.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 02, 2012, 02:22:54 PM
Quote
wow, nice lie there Natan.  You know, bearing false witness like your supposed god says not to do?   You have not provided any evidence. 
Ooh, the 13 demon kings.  So you know this hmmmm?   Sounds like someone's been cribbing from the Deities and Demigods book.   ;D


In a court of law two witnesses is enough why should I provide anymore

Velkyn- I am discussing the "Dictionary of Demon and Demons in the Bible".  People for thousands of years with countless accounts of demon altercations and it is not enough. 

Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Aaron123 on May 02, 2012, 02:25:29 PM
In a court of law two witnesses is enough why should I provide anymore

If you're unwilling to provide evidence, then why should we take you seriously?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: HAL on May 02, 2012, 02:26:58 PM

In a court of law two witnesses is enough why should I provide anymore

Courts deal with naturally occurring events that don't require extraordinary evidence.

Unfortunately demons require extraordinary evidence and you have failed to provide any evidence meeting that threshold.

Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: velkyn on May 02, 2012, 02:27:31 PM
In a court of law two witnesses is enough why should I provide anymore

only in the bible, which has been shown wrong in so many other ways, gee, what's one more?  Nice excuse though. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Hatter23 on May 02, 2012, 02:31:37 PM
 

I love that science can continually be wrong with evidence, but it is accepted as truth.

It isn't truth, but it is an honest attempt to model the truth. It can be easily demonstrated through the science of cartography.

Get a map of the world from 1500, 1550, 1600, 1650, 1700, 1750, 1800, 1850, 1900, 1950, and 2000...arranged in that order. then put a photograph of the earth to the right. You should notice an obvious pattern here, each map gets progressely more similar in look to the photo. That, my dear theist, is science at work; an attempt to model reality with the best available information. The 1750 map was "wrong" but none the less a better model of reality than the one from 1500 because new evidence was accepted and finding a better way of measuring a coastline wasn't considered a heresy in Cartography, and a person navigating a ship in 1750 would be a fool not to accept it as reality, but rather used the one from 1500 because "it was from the great fathers of cartography"

Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Argyle on May 02, 2012, 02:33:38 PM
In a court of law two witnesses is enough why should I provide anymore

Do you believe in alien abductions? How about the miracles of every other religion on the planet? What about healing using crystals? Do you believe in homeopathy? Do you believe in astrology? I'm fairly sure I could find one other person to come with me and tell you that we witnessed an event which proves beyond a doubt that there is no god.. there are two of us, isn't that enough?

This is why your position is laughable. If you allow for one you must allow for them all, and if you do not allow the evidence of two witnesses as proof of any one of the above mentioned, you must also not allow it for the position you favor. This is a simple epistemic necessity if you wish not to believe falsehoods.
(http://frmarkdwhite.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/bertrand-russell.jpg?w=96&h=96&h=96)
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Hatter23 on May 02, 2012, 02:34:26 PM

In a court of law two witnesses is enough why should I provide anymore

Show me a judge willing to accept two witnesses who claimed "a demon did it" and a opposing attourney who thought he wouldn't have a basis for an appeal.

Seriously, are you really this stupid?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 02, 2012, 02:34:39 PM
 

I love that science can continually be wrong with evidence, but it is accepted as truth.

It isn't truth, but it is an honest attempt to model the truth. It can be easily demonstrated through the science of cartography.

Get a map of the world from 1500, 1550, 1600, 1650, 1700, 1750, 1800, 1850, 1900, 1950, and 2000...arranged in that order. then put a photograph of the earth to the right. You should notice an obvious pattern here, each map gets progressely more similar in look to the photo. That, my dear theist, is science at work; an attempt to model reality with the best available information. The 1750 map was "wrong" but none the less a better model of reality than the one from 1500 because new evidence was accepted and finding a better way of measuring a coastline wasn't considered a heresy in Cartography, and a person navigating a ship in 1750 would be a fool not to accept it as reality, but rather used the one from 1500 because "it was from the great fathers of cartography"

So you are willing to accept error to get facts?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 02, 2012, 02:37:52 PM

Quote
The point is that when two people see the same thing and say the same thing there must be some fact to it.  But I know your argument will be without photos there is no proof.  and we are crazy. 


Science wrong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDzR0aG3eGQ

How about the existance of Different dimensions proven by science?  I believe this opens up a whole can of worms for humans as there is more then just us.  These dimensions are hell, shoel, heaven, earth, etc.   

Now you really think I am crazy, but demon possession is the movement through a dimension into a person.  UFO's are demons based on simularities in cave pictagraphs. 

Now I am really crazy
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Hatter23 on May 02, 2012, 02:40:17 PM

So you are willing to accept error to get facts?


Yes. Have you plucked out your eyes and cut off your ears because you have mishear or misseen something?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: velkyn on May 02, 2012, 02:41:10 PM
The point is that when two people see the same thing and say the same thing there must be some fact to it.  But I know your argument will be without photos there is no proof.  and we are crazy.

Nope, not at all. Delusions in crowds are common.   Theists of all stripes come and make ridiculous claims here.  There is no more reason to believe your stories about demons than there is to believe a Muslim's claim that the moon was cracked into to parts. 

Science is built on working out the errors with facts.  You benefit from this every day. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Argyle on May 02, 2012, 02:44:04 PM
Hatter23: +1 for reply #121, or at least, I'd give you a +1 if I had the ability to award darwins, apparently still too new. I really want to make a JPG of that series of maps so I can post it whenever this argument about science being "wrong so many times" comes up.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: HAL on May 02, 2012, 02:45:35 PM
The point is that when two people see the same thing and say the same thing there must be some fact to it.

Why?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Hatter23 on May 02, 2012, 02:47:11 PM

The point is that when two people see the same thing and say the same thing there must be some fact to it.  But I know your argument will be without photos there is no proof.  and we are crazy.

No, it isn't my argument at all. My point is that people are credulous and will hear and see things that they are inclined to believe to exist in the first place, regardless of what actually happened. There are accounts even as late as the 20th century of people seeing flying men, there are accounts of people seeing in rural Japan of seeing many tailed fox spirits, in fact there are hundreds of these accounts. There are accounts of sightings of the Loc Ness Monster, bigfoot, the power of various Pagan deities, and all sorts of supernatural things.

My point is extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence because it is important to try to have your belief how the universe were best approximate how the universe works, and if you don't use skeptisim, you can believe in falsehoods more easily.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 02, 2012, 02:54:30 PM


Why?
[/quote]

You can't be that arrogant
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: HAL on May 02, 2012, 03:00:35 PM

Quote
Why?

You can't be that arrogant

Who me? Oh sure I can. Ask anyone.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 02, 2012, 03:01:47 PM
Quote
No, it isn't my argument at all. My point is that people are credulous and will hear and see things that they are inclined to believe to exist in the first place, regardless of what actually happened. There are accounts even as late as the 20th century of people seeing flying men, there are accounts of people seeing in rural Japan of seeing many tailed fox spirits, in fact there are hundreds of these accounts. There are accounts of sightings of the Loc Ness Monster, bigfoot, the power of various Pagan deities, and all sorts of supernatural things.

My point is extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence because it is important to try to have your belief how the universe were best approximate how the universe works, and if you don't use skeptisim, you can believe in falsehoods more easily.
 

Hater I hate to say this but I agree with you but my proof is not a photo it is a real life experience.  And there are flying men with jet packs and the sky divers using the flying suits. What they saw may not have been out of the rhelm of possibility. 

Do you see germs no but you know they are real when you get sick?    I do not see God but I know he is real when I see the things he does in peoples lives and through my person experiences with Him.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: velkyn on May 02, 2012, 03:10:43 PM
Do you see germs no but you know they are real when you get sick?    I do not see God but I know he is real when I see the things he does in peoples lives and through my person experiences with Him.

microscopes.  and your claims are like all theists, who claim that their god/gods are real when they see the things he/it/they do in people and through their personal experiences in he/it/them.  Again, show your version of this nonsense is the only true on.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Tykster on May 02, 2012, 03:11:21 PM
To see germs, spread a few on a petri dish and wait...they'll be visible soon enough.

To see God.... pray and wait.......... forever.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Graybeard on May 02, 2012, 03:18:05 PM
You do not have open minds. 
Translation :- You don't believe in batshit crazy things that have been pulled out of someone's arse. You fail to realize that huge monsters with unfeasible powers from nowhere in particular, roam the earth and will inhabit your soul at a moments notice, thus causing you to strangle kittens as a sacrifice to Satan.

I suggest you believe this.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Ambassador Pony on May 02, 2012, 03:19:14 PM
Nathan, I don't think so.

As I said before, no one is as fuck-balls stupid as the character you are portraying on the internet. The odds favour that you are just trolling, which means you are a jackass, instead of a complete imbecile.

You will cease pretending to be a complete idiot, or I will have to ask you to leave. It is not acceptable for you to take advantage of the members of this community who seek forthright discussion and debate.

If this continues, I will have to ask you to leave.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: nogodsforme on May 02, 2012, 03:22:40 PM
Nathan, are you really arguing that anything two people believe in has to be true? Or ar you saying that truth is decided by majority vote--so when Muslims outnumber Christians, then Islam will be the one true faith.

Is Elvis Presley alive? I am sure that we can find at least two people who think so.... &)
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Historicity on May 02, 2012, 03:32:23 PM
So you are willing to accept error to get facts?
Working their way thru errors is something scientists do.

It is also something all adults do.  (Hint. Hint)
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Hatter23 on May 02, 2012, 03:41:29 PM

Hater I hate to say this but I agree with you but my proof is not a photo it is a real life experience.  And there are flying men with jet packs and the sky divers using the flying suits. What they saw may not have been out of the rhelm of possibility. 

Do you see germs no but you know they are real when you get sick?    I do not see God but I know he is real when I see the things he does in peoples lives and through my person experiences with Him.


Do not call me "Hater"

Your "real life experience" is not relevant to us. Is the "real life experience" of a group of Chinese peasants who saw a flying man WHO CLAIMED TO BE SUPERPOWERED but were duped because the chinese myth of superpowered people was exploited mean anything to you? If anything that just demonstrates what I was saying further, they interpreted what they saw THROUGH THEIR MYTHOLOGY!!!!!!!

If I can use my wizard analogy:

Get one thing through your thick skull: WE ARE NOT CREDULOUS.

And that's for all theists observing this post. We are not credulous, stop bothering with arguments that involve unsupported assertions, appeals to ignorance, and circular reasoning. Don't you get it? We are skeptics. Think about approaching up as if someone was trying to convince you that they were a wizard, a real spell casting wizard.

For proof:
Would you take their description of their astral battles?
Would you accept that they have studied spell books?
Would you accept they talked about the tales of spell users historically across the globe?
Would you accept some sort of linguistic slight of hand?
Would you accept that their magic works in mysterious ways?
Would you accept that you can't prove they aren't a wizard?

If you wouldn't accept these arguments....don't use their equivalent on us!


Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Hatter23 on May 02, 2012, 03:45:30 PM

Quote
Why?

You can't be that arrogant

Who me? Oh sure I can. Ask anyone.

I think he is, he agree with me. Therefore it must be true.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Seppuku on May 02, 2012, 05:41:21 PM
Quote from: Nathan
There are plenty of exorcisms on Youtube.  Yes some are real and others are not.  No matter the proof you will not believe what you see unless you experience it yourself.  That is the fact and no one can refute your skepticism has blinded your ability to see things in a different light.  It has to be a personal experience which you refuse to have.  Even people on this forum, if you were to experience it, would like the time of Jesus not accept Him.  So ultimately you and I are wasting our time debating something you refuse to accept as truth and I refuse to let go of the truth.  Lord I pray for the hardened hearts and ask you to let them see truth.  Bind the things not of you and release them long enough to make the choice of truth.   

I love that science can continually be wrong with evidence, but it is accepted as truth.


Nathan, you do not know me, so please do not try to assume things about me.

In the court of law, if you wanted to prosecute somebody for murder, do they just need 2 people to say, "yeah, I saw him do it"? What if the witnesses were mistaken? What if they were bearing false witness? What if their testimony says things this man did not do? Would the man still be guilty of the crime? Should I just go ahead and believe these two witnesses? Unfortunately, there are courts out there that will accept even LESS than that and personally, I find it truly sickening. See West Memphis 3 - 3 guys put to death row for murder, no witnesses, no real evidence. Luckily, they never actually got the death penalty and after a very long period of protests they were eventually freed - this is after over 20 years - 20 years of their lives wasted because they were wrongly imprisoned. The issue with the court of law is that it's not infallible. They get it wrong. People can be unfairly punished and it's one reason the death penalty in the UK was eventually abolished.


But allow me to put this in another light. How would you feel if the 'possessed' guy you visited was in fact a paranoid schizophrenic? What if this exorcism stuff you're pumping into his head just worsened his condition, made him more paranoid, had him having these delusions of things that really weren't there and found himself lashing out on people violently? What if he deteriorated to a point where he managed to kill somebody? How would he feel then. Or what if in one of your exorcisms things just got too far and it ends in a fatality? It happens. So what then? Would you be happy being charged for manslaughter? Because in the court of law that's what happens. Some of the victims have even been children. What if the 'evidence' showed that actually your 'demonically possessed man' was actually suffering from severe mental problems you failed to address and what if you got charged for abuse because of it? As these mental problems could have been addressed when he showed early signs. Would you be happy knowing you've caused any of those things because you were so adamant that it was a demon?

This is the wonderful thing about science (which you claim to be wrong, but you say that typing from what is presumably a computer) is that it's able to take data people have gathered and learn everything they're able to from it and apply it to how we understand the world. It is scrutinised, theories are made and they're tested and tested and tested. We've learned that pestilence is bacteria nor demons and witches, we've learned that the earth is round and orbits the sun, we've learned how to combat bacteria, we've learned that remedies with 'magical' properties do not cure people, we've learned that taken somebody to an altar and have holy water splashed on them and praying to God doesn't save them from illnesses, we've gone from an age where the common cold could kill you to when it's just a minor inconvenience thanks to science and get this...part of how we fight harmful bacteria is based off of the theory of evolution - because certain strains of a virus can and DO evolve. That's why we have to research the medicines and combat any new strains that evolve. We've had so many things religious folks have so ADAMANTLY claimed to be undeniable true to be found untrue through the scientific methodology. Though, many religious folk deny the inconvenient parts of science as t challenges what they want to believe.

Now, from reading your testimonies, I came up with two reasonable explanations as to what's happening. I don't out right refuse to believe or I'm just arrogant about my own views. If demons ARE real, I so want to know about it. Why? Well, I don't want to be possessed and find that when I come to I've butchered my family. But instead of accepting the possibility that there is a scientific explanation for this, ironically, you so arrogantly claim your testimony to by undeniable and that we're simply blind.

I'm sorry, but with the time you hand with this guy, you've been given amble opportunity to gather the data you need to have us questions our own views on this. As somebody said, why didn't you film it, take lots of and lots of picture, try and document everything you can, phone the doctor (bring him in on it), get a journalist in, call the police, get an ambulance, get every kind of person in your local area who good give a professional opinion, who could document and report what they witnessed. However, all we can do is take your word for it. At least people on YouTube have videos, whilst these videos are very difficult to verify, but then I'm gullible to suddenly believe a video that only looks convincing. There's plenty of 'convincing' videos of supernatural things that have been successfully debunked.

So try to see it from our perspective. There's nothing special about anybody's so-called "evidence" and people claims that distinguish them from fact of fiction. You might as well be telling us Bigfoot is real and so's the Loch Ness monster.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on May 02, 2012, 05:55:21 PM
There are plenty of exorcisms on Youtube.  Yes some are real and others are not.  No matter the proof you will not believe what you see unless you experience it yourself.  That is the fact and no one can refute your skepticism has blinded your ability to see things in a different light.  It has to be a personal experience which you refuse to have.  Even people on this forum, if you were to experience it, would like the time of Jesus not accept Him.  So ultimately you and I are wasting our time debating something you refuse to accept as truth and I refuse to let go of the truth.  Lord I pray for the hardened hearts and ask you to let them see truth.  Bind the things not of you and release them long enough to make the choice of truth.   

I love that science can continually be wrong with evidence, but it is accepted as truth.

Oh geez Nathan, first i thought you ran away, but now you're coming back here to just be ignorant of what we've been telling you. No, none of the excorism were real, all were doctored up. "It's a personal experience which you refused to have?" What does that even mean? Have you not been paying any attention? I refuse to accept fairy tales that are not backed up with evidence. This is what you sound like.

Nathan: Demon possession is real!!
Us: Prove it.
Nathan: Here's youtube videos and an andecote.
Us: Those can be doctored up, you can be confusing mental illness.
Nathan: You just refuse to accept the truth! You're ignorant and you shut me down!
Us: No, those just don't prove anything.
Nathan: You refuse to learn the truth! I win anyway!

Quote
No, it isn't my argument at all. My point is that people are credulous and will hear and see things that they are inclined to believe to exist in the first place, regardless of what actually happened. There are accounts even as late as the 20th century of people seeing flying men, there are accounts of people seeing in rural Japan of seeing many tailed fox spirits, in fact there are hundreds of these accounts. There are accounts of sightings of the Loc Ness Monster, bigfoot, the power of various Pagan deities, and all sorts of supernatural things.

My point is extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence because it is important to try to have your belief how the universe were best approximate how the universe works, and if you don't use skeptisim, you can believe in falsehoods more easily.
 

Hater I hate to say this but I agree with you but my proof is not a photo it is a real life experience.  And there are flying men with jet packs and the sky divers using the flying suits. What they saw may not have been out of the rhelm of possibility. 

Do you see germs no but you know they are real when you get sick?    I do not see God but I know he is real when I see the things he does in peoples lives and through my person experiences with Him.

We can see germs by microscope. The problem with that claim is that germs are real and has been tested. Your demon possession isn't and has not been proven. You cannot see God but you know he's there? How do you know it wasn't Zeus? How do you know it wasn't Ra or Vishnu or Odin? I'm sorry but that analogy fails, there is nothing that porvides that a deity exists.

Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on May 02, 2012, 05:58:08 PM
Quote
wow, nice lie there Natan.  You know, bearing false witness like your supposed god says not to do?   You have not provided any evidence. 
Ooh, the 13 demon kings.  So you know this hmmmm?   Sounds like someone's been cribbing from the Deities and Demigods book.   ;D


In a court of law two witnesses is enough why should I provide anymore

Velkyn- I am discussing the "Dictionary of Demon and Demons in the Bible".  People for thousands of years with countless accounts of demon altercations and it is not enough.

Oh good grief, you mean to tell me that you cannot distinguish a lie from facts? If i wrote down a book creating different creatures and call them demons and that they're real, they can be no different from the books about some demons you read. As for eyewitnesses, they're not good because they can be wrong in what they see and they could be making things up or stretching the truth.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on May 02, 2012, 06:03:31 PM

So you are willing to accept error to get facts?

(FACEPALM) What error? Are you saying that we should just believe whatever someone tells us? Then i supposed that means we're supposed to just believe that all sorts of spirits from all different cultures exist or that all mythological creatures exists or that all deities exists as well, because they are once believed as well. Nathan, if you want us to see that demon possession exists, you have to provide credible evidence, not youtube videos or andecotes. Eyewitnesses are not good enough evidence for the existence of any deity, demons, or anything that can't be supported with evidence.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: jeremy0 on May 02, 2012, 06:12:01 PM
oh. my. gawd... don't tell me you actually believe in demonic possession...  Yeah, I'd love to tell some doctors about this - we've been doing it all wrong - get the excorcism teams to the hospitals!  These are demons, people!!  (faceplant)
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: HAL on May 02, 2012, 06:44:17 PM
Isn't it funny that the Demons never make it into a science or medical lab for observation?

Damn pesky critters.

Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on May 02, 2012, 06:54:05 PM
Isn't it funny that the Demons never make it into a science or medical lab for observation?

Damn pesky critters.

But don't you know? They always want to remain hidden, invisible, and sneaky. Just like those darn Kappas and Unicorns in my bedroom. I swear i saw them, but they always get away before i can study them... *sigh*  :laugh:
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: HAL on May 02, 2012, 06:59:41 PM
Hey I just got a great idea. Seeing as how the Demons are scared of scientists a possessed person should call one instead of a priest!
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on May 02, 2012, 07:04:27 PM
Hey I just got a great idea. Seeing as how the Demons are scared of scientists a possessed person should call one instead of a priest!

I can picture that.

Priest: Out demon! Out in the name of Jesus!
Demon: Blargh! I spit upon you and i'm going to enjoy making people go crazy and throw knives at you!

Scientist: Oh, let's take a closer look at this poor fellow.
Demon: Eek! Scientists! *Scampers out of the body and flees in horror*
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: jeremy0 on May 02, 2012, 07:27:07 PM
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D :D :D  &)
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: jeremy0 on May 02, 2012, 08:30:09 PM
Holy Shit!  I have a good idea...

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,22445.msg501635.html#msg501635 (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,22445.msg501635.html#msg501635)

On worldwide 'prayer day', if there really is one now - we should demand that all of these super-religious people pray for god to heal something.  For the sake of not testing god, we can say it has to be something he can handle.  Since demons are in the spirit, and God certainly has absolute power over the spiritual world, we could ask that everyone who is 'demonically possessed' (mentally ill) become perfectly treated or 'exorcised' on that same night. 

Then, we can say in our best Clint Eastwood accent 'Go ahead, make my day...'

After that day, WHEN NOTHING HAPPENS, we can hammer them all as delusional.  (This is my #1 wake-up factor for delusional, paranoid, or people that hear voices or see things - none of your delusions, paranoia, or hallucinations will actually come true - it just won't happen.  Nothing will happen.  It's that simple)  Now if people have any sense of rational thought, something like this would wake them right up from religion.  Otherwise, I could chime in and hypothesise 'well, maybe god has just given up on you people', or 'maybe god just hates people like he did in the old days..' or 'maybe god is imaginary and it's all just a fairy-tale in your head, just like sata claus and the easter bunny..'
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Nick on May 02, 2012, 08:33:55 PM
Isn't it funny that the Demons never make it into a science or medical lab for observation?

Damn pesky critters.
They also never make it into atheists.  Why is that?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: kaziglu bey on May 02, 2012, 08:37:30 PM
also never make it into atheists.  Why is that?
Atheists have a natural immunity to bullshit.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Astreja on May 03, 2012, 12:54:39 AM
How about the existance of Different dimensions proven by science?  I believe this opens up a whole can of worms for humans as there is more then just us.  These dimensions are hell, shoel, heaven, earth, etc.

Nathan, that's not what science means by "dimensions."  Try thinking in terms of "up," "down," "left," "right," "yesterday" and "tomorrow" -- Not mythological realms.

Quote
Now I am really crazy

Quotemined for truth.   ;D
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Anfauglir on May 03, 2012, 04:20:56 AM
There are plenty of exorcisms on Youtube.  Yes some are real and others are not. 

First question then: how do you tell the difference, if you were not present yourself?  Are there certain aspects of what you call possession that absolutely cannot be faked?

No matter the proof you will not believe what you see unless you experience it yourself.


Fine.  There is a leprechaun under my bed.  Do you believe me?  If not, why not?

It has to be a personal experience which you refuse to have......Lord I pray for the hardened hearts and ask you to let them see truth.  Bind the things not of you and release them long enough to make the choice of truth.   

Can we focus on this bit?  You are saying that your god exists, and you are praying that we see the truth.  You aren't the first, and you won't be the last.  Yet time after time, either your god refuses to answer those prayers, or your god is unable to make it happen.

Why should that be?  If your god truly loves us all and wants us to be with him, then surely it would be his primary task to help us see the truth?  Its not even a case of overriding our free will to choose - knowledge of someone's existence does not automatically mean they choose to accept and follow them....but of course you know that, otherwise there would not - could not - be any fallen angels or demons in the first place. 

So the only reason your god would refuse to answer your prayers is either because he doesn't WANT us to find him (in which case, in what way is he loving?), or he doesn't want there to be any clear evidence for his existence.  He wants us to choose him over the tens of thousands of other gods there have ever been without giving any evidence to do so.  In which case you are wasting your prayers......I wonder why your god isn't telling you that?

It has to be a personal experience which you refuse to have......

I refuse nothing.  Explain to me, simply and clearly, how I can have a personal experience with your god.  But I expect two things from that explanation.  Firstly, I want your guarantee that if I follow your words exactly, I will get that personal experience.  And secondly, I want that explanation to be complete when you post it - I have no intention of wasting my time following instructions, only to be told later that "oh, you should have been doing this as well".

Of course, neither should really be necessary: a god who truly loves me and wants me to know him would be blatantly and immediately obvious in my life, the moment I start to look for him.  But - funny thing! - despite several times having sought, despite several times following the careful instructions of the latest Christian to arrive on this site.....nothing happens.  Perhaps you could explain why that is?

Note: Fixed quoting - HAL
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 07:51:21 AM
Quote
If you're unwilling to provide evidence, then why should we take you seriously?

Prove there is no god and I will take you seriously
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 07:52:54 AM

Quote
Courts deal with naturally occurring events that don't require extraordinary evidence.

Unfortunately demons require extraordinary evidence and you have failed to provide any evidence meeting that threshold.

Reallly it requires extrodinary evidence.  Wrong, it should only require the same evidence as everything else. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on May 03, 2012, 07:53:37 AM
Prove there is no god and I will take you seriously

Proof of non-existence is impossible.
You are the one making the positive claim. You need to show the evidence.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 07:53:53 AM


Yes. Have you plucked out your eyes and cut off your ears because you have mishear or misseen something?
[/quote]

The same thing you have done to God's word and the existance of God
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 08:03:01 AM


Proof of non-existence is impossible.
You are the one making the positive claim. You need to show the evidence.
[/quote]

Wrong again.  Good science tries to prove a Hypothesis.  Millions of people have experienced God so we are all wrong. 
Test after test after test= testimony after testimony of who God is and has done for people.  The proof is not in numbers it is the changed lives of millions of people.  Something science refuses to accept. 

Are you nothing more then living dust held together by a serious chemical reactions.  That is what atheist believe.  If you are wrong then you will spend eternity in hell.  If I am wrong a am a worm feast.  Your thoughts are a lot more scare them I. 

See I was one a person that did not believe in God.  Had no desire to know God.  I was a professional making good money in a good place.  One day on a whim I challenged God to show me he was real.  What happen was nothing more then extrodinary and life changing.   This is coming from a former athiest.  I  believed science could not and does not prove God but my personal relationship with him does.  You want proof be a scientist with an open objective and go experience God.  Then make your own conclusions. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on May 03, 2012, 08:04:31 AM
NATHAN, is your position really so devoid of intellectual honesty and evidence that you must resort to these lies? I'd say I'm disappointed, but I'd be lying.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Nick on May 03, 2012, 08:14:43 AM


Yes. Have you plucked out your eyes and cut off your ears because you have mishear or misseen something?

The same thing you have done to God's word and the existance of God
[/quote]Man, that might hurt. :)
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on May 03, 2012, 08:20:27 AM
Quote
If you're unwilling to provide evidence, then why should we take you seriously?

Prove there is no god and I will take you seriously

(Facepalm)

Nathan, can you prove that there isn't a kappa in my room? Can you prove that there wasn't a gnome in my pocket? seriously, you're saying, "Prove there isn't a god" because you refuse to accept the fact thast you made the claim that there's a god. Why can't you just prove that there is a God? Proving that something doesn't exist cannot happen because we're not the one who made the claim. Can you prove there isn't Odin or Zeus?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 08:31:06 AM
Quote
Can we focus on this bit?  You are saying that your god exists, and you are praying that we see the truth.  You aren't the first, and you won't be the last.  Yet time after time, either your god refuses to answer those prayers, or your god is unable to make it happen.

You need to understand that God when you have a hardened heart and refuse to draw near to God he will not Draw near to you. He is able to all things. 

Quote
Why should that be?  If your god truly loves us all and wants us to be with him, then surely it would be his primary task to help us see the truth?  Its not even a case of overriding our free will to choose - knowledge of someone's existence does not automatically mean they choose to accept and follow them....but of course you know that, otherwise there would not - could not - be any fallen angels or demons in the first place.
 

God does truly love you.  But we need to accept God's grace and acknowledge Him as lord and savior.  Would you say that mankind naturally wants to live for anything other then mankind?  I say the answer is no we want to live for ourselves.  If we live for ourselves without morals then we have chaos.  We see this through history with the fall of the Roman Empire, nazi germany. 

If you do not believe in God then you are a meer animal.  As such murdering another human with malice in your heart must be ok becuase that happens in natural animal kingdom.  survival of the fittest. 

Where did social opinions come from? God.  Where has our laws in the US? Heavily influenced by the bible. 

Everyone knows that murder is wrong becuase we have moral law wired into our being. 

God's existance is real and requires acknowledge.  once you acknowledge God's existance he begins to show more and more of his love. 

Example:  4 years ago a missionary was laid on my heart.  I began to pray as the Lord lead me to pray for healing.  I called her and let her know I was praying for healing over her body.  She said nothing is wrong.  three months later she was in NY and asked to see me.  She began to explain that when she was on th Wind River Reservation she became ill.  She had an anurism in her spleen.  instead of bursting a small blood clot plugged it and the anurism did not burst. 

I have her testimony of God's goodness and love.  And no I am not posting private medical information. 

Quote
So the only reason your god would refuse to answer your prayers is either because he doesn't WANT us to find him (in which case, in what way is he loving?), or he doesn't want there to be any clear evidence for his existence.  He wants us to choose him over the tens of thousands of other gods there have ever been without giving any evidence to do so.  In which case you are wasting your prayers......I wonder why your god isn't telling you that?
Quote



[qu
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 08:36:31 AM

For proof:
Would you take their description of their astral battles?
Would you accept that they have studied spell books?
Would you accept they talked about the tales of spell users historically across the globe?
Would you accept some sort of linguistic slight of hand?
Would you accept that their magic works in mysterious ways?
Would you accept that you can't prove they aren't a wizard?

If you wouldn't accept these arguments....don't use their equivalent on us!
[/quote] 

I believe in wizards and Pagan people casting spells and astral battles.  Their magic does work but not for etenal life.  The difference between Jesus and the other God is Jesus is the only one trying to bring you into heaven while othre other religions try to bring their god to earth to serve them. 

Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Nick on May 03, 2012, 08:37:39 AM
Nathan, I hope you and your Sky Daddy are happy.  I for one need more than your ramblings for acceptance of some kind of super being.  I believe we are nothing more than animal.  One with a bigger brain than the others but animal non the less.  I make the most of this life.  You live for the next.

Just out of curiosity...why did you come here and what do you hope to gain?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Pounamu on May 03, 2012, 08:44:29 AM
Wrong again.  Good science tries to prove a Hypothesis.  Millions of people have experienced God so we are all wrong. 

Sorry, not true. Good science tries to prove good hypotheses, not just any hypothesis. The hypothesis that something doesn't exist can only serve as a [wiki]null hypothesis[/wiki], and a null hypothesis can never be proven. Stamp it on your forhead! Jeez!
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Hatter23 on May 03, 2012, 08:45:15 AM
Quote
If you're unwilling to provide evidence, then why should we take you seriously?

Prove there is no god and I will take you seriously

Prove there are no flying shoes when I am asleep and there are no recording devices present and I will take you seriously
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Hatter23 on May 03, 2012, 08:48:15 AM


I believe in wizards and Pagan people casting spells and astral battles.  Their magic does work.

So you believe in every claim, or do you have some standard to distinguish reality from fantasy/fable/lies?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on May 03, 2012, 08:48:27 AM

Quote
Courts deal with naturally occurring events that don't require extraordinary evidence.

Unfortunately demons require extraordinary evidence and you have failed to provide any evidence meeting that threshold.

Reallly it requires extrodinary evidence.  Wrong, it should only require the same evidence as everything else. 

Oh really? How about providing evidence instead of dodging it with the "prove it doesn't" nonsense.



Yes. Have you plucked out your eyes and cut off your ears because you have mishear or misseen something?

The same thing you have done to God's word and the existance of God
[/quote]

(Facepalm)

You are not answering their question. Also, you made the claim that your God exists, you're the one who has to prove it. All you did was go "Prove that he doesn't exist." You even ignored me when i asked you some questions.



Proof of non-existence is impossible.
You are the one making the positive claim. You need to show the evidence.

Wrong again.  Good science tries to prove a Hypothesis.  Millions of people have experienced God so we are all wrong.  [/quote]

many people have ad believed that the earth was flat. They were wrong when evidence is proved that the earth was a sphere. There are many people who thought homosexuality was mental illness. medical association proves that they are not mental illness. Many people thought that the sun is revolving around the earth it's the earth that orbits around the sun. There was little to no knowledge in the past, they had no knowledge that we have todasy. Also, it's a fallacy, amount of people believing in something doesn't mean they're right.

Quote
Test after test after test= testimony after testimony of who God is and has done for people.  The proof is not in numbers it is the changed lives of millions of people.  Something science refuses to accept. 

Science refuses to accept it? Oh horse! Testimonies are not good enough evidence because people are not infallible. People make mistakes in what they witness, people makes up stuff, and people even changes what other people say they witness. The bible has been changed and altered through translation, misinterpretation, and there are people who changed the words, added or removed some of the things in it. Science does not "refuse" because if there is nothing to prove something is real and cannot be tested, then it's useless.

Quote
Are you nothing more then living dust held together by a serious chemical reactions.  That is what atheist believe.  If you are wrong then you will spend eternity in hell.  If I am wrong a am a worm feast.  Your thoughts are a lot more scare them I.

Ah, first, you proclaim that you know what an atheist believes. Sorry, but you're full of it. An atheist simply doesn't believe in existence of a God. And you decided to use pascal's wager, which isn't something new. You weren't the first person to use it, but you won't be the last. Seriously, the pascal's wager is completely faulty because there are thousands of gods, and different denominations of christianity. the chance of being in the right religion is like 0.001% 

Quote
See I was one a person that did not believe in God.  Had no desire to know God.  I was a professional making good money in a good place.  One day on a whim I challenged God to show me he was real.  What happen was nothing more then extrodinary and life changing.   This is coming from a former athiest.  I  believed science could not and does not prove God but my personal relationship with him does.  You want proof be a scientist with an open objective and go experience God.  Then make your own conclusions. 

(Facepalm)

So you're saing that personal experience is good enough reason to believe? You say you're a "former atheist" i don't buy that. You said that you challenged god and believed. We challenged God, i've challenged god more than one occasion and nothing happened. If you say, "Oh he responded but you're just so blind and ignorant" then i supposed i'm more powerful than your God.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Historicity on May 03, 2012, 08:58:41 AM
Millions of people have experienced God so we are all wrong.  Test after test after test= testimony after testimony of who God is and has done for people.
CORRECTION:  Billions of people have experienced a bunch of Gods.  Their experiences do not home in on a single hypothesis.

In science increasing evidence does increasingly narrow the hypotheses.  The God experience does not do that.

The Dervishes and Sufis experience an Islamic God.  There are plenty of gurus and mystics in India who experience the Hindu Gods.   The Buddhists testify to enlightenment that gets past any God.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on May 03, 2012, 09:04:10 AM
You need to understand that God when you have a hardened heart and refuse to draw near to God he will not Draw near to you. He is able to all things. 

oh so if we could hardened our heart, then we're more stronger than your God? I thought he was all powerful. What, he can't just come out and say, "Here i am, i exist." No, you rather we just believe without evidence. How about you try believing in Odin? Why do you harden your heart against him? You won't be going to Valhalla, you'll be punished.

Quote
God does truly love you.  But we need to accept God's grace and acknowledge Him as lord and savior.  Would you say that mankind naturally wants to live for anything other then mankind?  I say the answer is no we want to live for ourselves.  If we live for ourselves without morals then we have chaos.  We see this through history with the fall of the Roman Empire, nazi germany. 

By morals, you mean your biblical morality? If you hadn't noticed, the bible is full of nasty rules about how to own slaves, that women should be oppressed and silent, that people who works on a sabbath should be stoned to death and more. Sweden is very peaceful and it has fewer religious believers there.

Quote
If you do not believe in God then you are a meer animal.  As such murdering another human with malice in your heart must be ok becuase that happens in natural animal kingdom.  survival of the fittest. 

Oh wow. Hadn't you noticed that your bible is the reason people were killing one another? I don't want to kill anyone and i hadn't. No one wants to die and i don't want to die. We've survived for thousands of years by co-existing with each other. We're social species, we're not mindless animals.

Quote
Where did social opinions come from? God.  Where has our laws in the US? Heavily influenced by the bible.

The bible isn't in the constitution, it's not in the bill of rights. Sorry, but you're wrong. The one that focuses on using the religious text as law, would be the Middle East and it's looking very ugly right now. So much for moral standards. We're good because we want to be good, we're social creatures who can love one another. I don't need a god to know that. 

Quote
Everyone knows that murder is wrong becuase we have moral law wired into our being. 

God's existance is real and requires acknowledge.  once you acknowledge God's existance he begins to show more and more of his love. 

Knowledge? I thought it was just about accepting upon blind faith. I'm sorry, but because of knowledge, i see no evidence for the existence of God and the Bible is not a good source for proving that your God exist.

Quote
Example:  4 years ago a missionary was laid on my heart.  I began to pray as the Lord lead me to pray for healing.  I called her and let her know I was praying for healing over her body.  She said nothing is wrong.  three months later she was in NY and asked to see me.  She began to explain that when she was on th Wind River Reservation she became ill.  She had an anurism in her spleen.  instead of bursting a small blood clot plugged it and the anurism did not burst. 

I have her testimony of God's goodness and love.  And no I am not posting private medical information. 

If that were to be true, then why hadn't your God helped all the victims of rape, child molestation, or those being abused by their spouse? If he cared so much about that woman, then surely he should helped those who suffered. But no, it's because they're all "sinners" and that they didn't "believe with all their heart" so they deserved it for "turning their back on God" but hey, God is loving. God is loving and he needs money. (RIP George Carlin)

Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Hatter23 on May 03, 2012, 09:09:44 AM

Quote
Courts deal with naturally occurring events that don't require extraordinary evidence.

Unfortunately demons require extraordinary evidence and you have failed to provide any evidence meeting that threshold.

Reallly it requires extrodinary evidence.  Wrong, it should only require the same evidence as everything else.

I will demonstrate how incredibly, ludicrously, beyond the pale of stupidity level of wrong this is:

Do you believe I exist? Yes or No.

Do you believe I am male? Yes or No.

Do you believe I live in the United States? Yes or No.

Do you believe I am the Norse God Loki? Yes or No.

Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 09:17:09 AM
Quote
I refuse nothing.  Explain to me, simply and clearly, how I can have a personal experience with your god.  But I expect two things from that explanation.  Firstly, I want your guarantee that if I follow your words exactly, I will get that personal experience.  And secondly, I want that explanation to be complete when you post it - I have no intention of wasting my time following instructions, only to be told later that "oh, you should have been doing this as well".

Do you really want Him in your life?  If not this is an exercise in futility. Also I am charged to assist you in this process and am making myself available to you.  If you are serious PM and I will give you my personal email. 

First of all - Admit that you are a sinner.

We all have sin in our hearts. We all were born with sin.  We were born under the power of sin's control.

Romans 3:23  "
Quote
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
."

Secondly- Understand that you deserve death for your sin.
Sin has an ending.  It results in death.  We all face physical death, which is a result of sin.  But a worse death is spiritual death that alienates us from God, and will last for all eternity.  The Bible teaches that there is a place called the Lake of Fire where lost people will be in torment forever.   It is the place where people who are spiritually dead will remain.

Romans 6:23a  "...The wages of sin is death..."

-ThirdlyAsk God to forgive you and save you.
Salvation is a free gift from God to you!  You can't earn this gift, but you must reach out and receive it.

Romans 6:23b  "...But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Forth-Give your life to God... His love poured out in Jesus on the cross is your only hope to have forgiveness and change.  His love bought you out of being a slave to sin.  His love is what saves you --  not religion, or church membership.  God loves you!  This was the hardest and most diffcult thing for me to understand. 

When Jesus died on the cross He paid sin's penalty. He paid the price for all sin, and when He took all the sins of the world on Himself on the cross, He bought us out of slavery to sin and death! The only condition is that we believe in Him and what He has done for us, understanding that  we are now joined with Him, and that He is our life.  He did all this because He loved us and gave Himself for us!

Romans 5:8,  "God demonstrates His own love for us, in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us!"

Fifth out to God in the name of Jesus!

Romans 10:13  "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord  will be saved!"

 
Sixth you know that God is knocking on your heart's door, ask Him to come into your heart.

Romans 10:9,10  "...If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting  in salvation."


- Is Jesus knocking on your heart's door?
Jesus said,

Revelation 3:20a "Behold I stand at the door and knock, if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him..."

 

  Believe in Him.

  Ask Him to come in to your heart  by faith,
 and ask Him to reveal Himself to you.

 Open the Bible to the Gospel of John and read what God says about Jesus,
 about you, and about being born again.

 

 God will help you
 

You need to look for a local church where God's word is preached. 

Again I am charged with helpping you understand God if you are seriously and seeking Him he will respond.  My prayer right now is that all that read this begin to develop a stirring for God's work in their heart.  Lord as they read your word let truth be seen.  Father for those that read this and have hardened hearts toward you I pray that you begin to break the Bonds NOW in Jesus name.  For those continuing to refuse you lord begin to humble them to in their flesh and plant the seeds of salivation in their hearts.  .

Aren't you hungry to know the truth?

 

Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 09:20:34 AM
Quote
I will demonstrate how incredibly, ludicrously, beyond the pale of stupidity level of wrong this is:

Do you believe I exist? Yes or No.

Do you believe I am male? Yes or No.

Do you believe I live in the United States? Yes or No.

Do you believe I am the Norse God Loki? Yes or No.

You must exist or else I am delusional
Your sex is depicted by your choice becuase you cn have a sex change due to science.
If you believe you live in the United state then you must or you are delusional.
That is a personal choice to follow Loki.  Althought is is not very masculent.  I would find someone tougher like Thor. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 09:22:08 AM
Isn't it funny that the Demons never make it into a science or medical lab for observation?

Damn pesky critters.
They also never make it into atheists.  Why is that?

They have no need to unless you think UFO abductions are Demons.  Then your wrong. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 09:23:20 AM
Isn't it funny that the Demons never make it into a science or medical lab for observation?

Damn pesky critters.

How do you know they are not there.  you can't prove they have not messed with lad results can you.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 09:25:31 AM
Quote
or 'maybe god is imaginary and it's all just a fairy-tale in your head, just like sata claus and the easter bunny..'

I eat the easter bunny and I love venison.  That is why they no longer exist.  Natural selection
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Hatter23 on May 03, 2012, 09:27:02 AM
Quote
I will demonstrate how incredibly, ludicrously, beyond the pale of stupidity level of wrong this is:

Do you believe I exist? Yes or No.

Do you believe I am male? Yes or No.

Do you believe I live in the United States? Yes or No.

Do you believe I am the Norse God Loki? Yes or No.

You must exist or else I am delusional
Your sex is depicted by your choice becuase you cn have a sex change due to science.
If you believe you live in the United state then you must or you are delusional.
That is a personal choice to follow Loki.  Althought is is not very masculent.  I would find someone tougher like Thor.


What part of "do YOU believe" and "Yes or No" are you incapable of understanding?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: naemhni on May 03, 2012, 09:35:13 AM
Isn't it funny that the Demons never make it into a science or medical lab for observation?

Damn pesky critters.

How do you know they are not there.  you can't prove they have not messed with lad results can you.

This is not the first time you've offered this kind of a response.  You seriously need to learn about the concept of "burden of proof".
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on May 03, 2012, 09:36:57 AM
<snip>
You seriously need to learn
<snip>

This is pretty much all he needs to do. Not just about burden of proof, but virtually everything he wants to discuss. NATHAN has showed time and time again that his knowledge is limited to an average command of the English language.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 09:42:35 AM
Quote
I will demonstrate how incredibly, ludicrously, beyond the pale of stupidity level of wrong this is:

Do you believe I exist? Yes or No.

Do you believe I am male? Yes or No.

Do you believe I live in the United States? Yes or No.

Do you believe I am the Norse God Loki? Yes or No.

You must exist or else I am delusional
Your sex is depicted by your choice becuase you cn have a sex change due to science.
If you believe you live in the United state then you must or you are delusional.
That is a personal choice to follow Loki.  Althought is is not very masculent.  I would find someone tougher like Thor.


What part of "do YOU believe" and "Yes or No" are you incapable of understanding?

Yes you do exist
I have not seen you so I can not determine your sex.  Bad question.
Don't know where you live
I certainly don't know what you believe as far as Loki.  The information has not been transfered.  Sorry reading minds is not my business.  you did demonstrate stupidity. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on May 03, 2012, 09:44:10 AM

Do you really want Him in your life?  If not this is an exercise in futility. Also I am charged to assist you in this process and am making myself available to you.  If you are serious PM and I will give you my personal email. 

First of all - Admit that you are a sinner.

(FACEPALM)

Nathan, most folks here, including me, used to believe in God, some even more strongly than another and yet we’re atheists. It’s not that we don’t want to believe or accept, it’s just that there isn’t any evidence. As for “admitting that you’re a sinner” is idiotic to me. We’re not “sinners” we’re all human beings. This whole sin stuff is just about the same as a person who suffers a Stockholm syndrome and believed that they are worthless and deserves the beating.

Quote
We all have sin in our hearts. We all were born with sin.  We were born under the power of sin's control.

Romans 3:23  "
Quote
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
."

Secondly- Understand that you deserve death for your sin.
Sin has an ending.  It results in death.  We all face physical death, which is a result of sin.  But a worse death is spiritual death that alienates us from God, and will last for all eternity.  The Bible teaches that there is a place called the Lake of Fire where lost people will be in torment forever.   It is the place where people who are spiritually dead will remain.

Romans 6:23a  "...The wages of sin is death..."

Translation: You’re wicked and sinful, you die, you deserve to die because you is born sinful.

This is no different than an abusive person saying, “Now look what you made me do, I’m going to beat you senseless because you’re worthless, you’re a worthless piece of ****!” I’m sorry, but I’m not going to stand by idly and have someone tell me that I should look at myself as “worthless” because of some sin that is from some religious text. We’re all human beings, everything we do is a part of who we are and your bible condemns it. It condemns us for being human. That is why I refuse to be beaten to submission with this garbage.

Quote
blah, blah, blah, believe in God, believe in the bible because the bible says it’s true. You’re evil, you’re wicked, you’re sinful because the bible says so, so believe and admit you’re not worthy!

Your bible is useless and threatening us with hellfire and telling us that we’re wicked and sinful is really getting old and is utterly useless. You weren’t the first to use that.

Quote
  blah, blah, blah
 

You need to look for a local church where God's word is preached. 

Again I am charged with helpping you understand God if you are seriously and seeking Him he will respond.  My prayer right now is that all that read this begin to develop a stirring for God's work in their heart.  Lord as they read your word let truth be seen.  Father for those that read this and have hardened hearts toward you I pray that you begin to break the Bonds NOW in Jesus name.  For those continuing to refuse you lord begin to humble them to in their flesh and plant the seeds of salivation in their hearts.  .

Aren't you hungry to know the truth?

Using bible verses isn’t going to work because the bible is not proven to be factual. You’re just expecting us to believe without evidence and you’re coming here and telling us to just accept the bible without evidence.

Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Hatter23 on May 03, 2012, 09:45:04 AM
What part of "do YOU believe" and "Yes or No" are you incapable of understanding?

Yes you do exist
I have not seen you so I can not determine your sex.  Bad question.
Don't know where you live
I certainly don't know what you believe as far as Loki.  The information has not been transfered.  Sorry reading minds is not my business

What part of "do YOU believe" and "Yes or No" are you incapable of understanding?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 09:45:58 AM


This is not the first time you've offered this kind of a response.  You seriously need to learn about the concept of "burden of proof".
[/quote]

here is the problem you believe that it is my burden of proof.  Truth is it is your.  I know what I believe, and what 6 others have seen and now beleive.  My burden of proof is fulfilled.  Yours is not.  Why is it the non believer continually say we need to provide proof?  We have proof you just don't like it.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on May 03, 2012, 09:50:42 AM
here is the problem you believe that it is my burden of proof.  Truth is it is your.  I know what I believe, and what 6 others have seen and now beleive.  My burden of proof is fulfilled.  Yours is not.  Why is it the non believer continually say we need to provide proof?  We have proof you just don't like it.

(FACEPALM)

Nathan, again, can you prove that i don't haver a kappa in my room or that a gnome is in my pocket? The burden is on you because YOU made the claim that something exists.

Which one makes more sense to you?

Boy #1: I have a baseball.
Boy #2: Oh yeah? Prove it.
Boy #1: Taa daa (Shows a baseball)
Boy #2: Cool, ok, we can go play baseball.

or

Boy #1: I have a baseball.
Boy #2: Oh yeah? Prove it.
Boy #1: Prove that it doesn't! I have a baseball and that's all i need, now you need to either accept that i have a baseball or prove that i don't have it!
Boy #2: Dafug?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Ivellios on May 03, 2012, 10:07:06 AM
Do you believe I am the Norse God Loki? Yes or No.

That is a personal choice to follow Loki.  Althought is is not very masculent.  I would find someone tougher like Thor.

I certainly don't know what you believe as far as Loki.  The information has not been transfered.  Sorry reading minds is not my business.  you did demonstrate stupidity.

Please read. He's asking if you BELIEVE he IS Loki. Not about him following or believing in Loki.... that he IS Loki.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Quesi on May 03, 2012, 10:14:30 AM

 
Sixth you know that God is knocking on your heart's door, ask Him to come into your heart.

Romans 10:9,10  "...If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting  in salvation."

You see, I don't.  In my heart, I really don't believe it any more than I believe any other myths about any other deities.  Not in my mind.  Not in my heart. 

If your god dismisses all of my good acts, simply because he has not given me either the evidence or the emotional capacity to believe in him, then I guess he has already decided that I am to be damned.  I don't know why he "charged" you to make me believe something the he hardwired me not to believe. 

It doesn't seem the most productive use of your time. 

Have you thought of volunteering at a soup kitchen?  Doing friendly visits with homebound senior citizens?  Building a playground in a low income neighborhood?  Taking a group of foster kids to the zoo? Going to the mid-west to help rebuild the communities that were just devastated by tornadoes?  Starting a collection to send supplies to refugees who lost everything in the droughts in Somalia? 

Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Ivellios on May 03, 2012, 10:16:37 AM
Aren't you hungry to know the truth?

How do you determine what is truth? Follow the facts.

You ask a girl out asnd she tells you that she's busy doing something. Everytime you ask her. The reality is, she'd rather die before she goes out with you. If it was just and her, instead of being an 'Adam and Eve', humanity would go extinct.

So which would you rather have, believing for the rest of your life she really likes you, but just cannot go out with you for some reason or would you rather know the hard, cold, cruel truth? Because the truth cares not for your feelings. A simple, "I'm sorry, I'm not interested." Short & tactful, says everything needed without being outright hurtful. Now, she can move on with her life and you can move on with yours.. guess what? There's over 3 Billion women on this planet, so just because 1 said no, is meaningless.

Point is, the "truth" isn't always going to be what you expect it to be... rather, it is hardly what you expected it to be.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Hatter23 on May 03, 2012, 10:17:25 AM

Please read. He's asking if you BELIEVE he IS Loki. Not about him following or believing in Loki.... that he IS Loki.


You are correct, these petty mortals need to heed my words better
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 10:19:30 AM
Quote
Boy #1: I have a baseball.
Boy #2: Oh yeah? Prove it.
Boy #1: Taa daa (Shows a baseball)
Boy #2: Cool, ok, we can go play baseball.

or

Boy #1: I have a baseball.
Boy #2: Oh yeah? Prove it.
Boy #1: Prove that it doesn't! I have a baseball and that's all i need, now you need to either accept that i have a baseball or prove that i don't have it!
Boy #2: Dafug?

Boy #1 I have a Eyes
Boy #2 Oh Yeah? Prove it
Boy #1 I see darkness
Boy #2 I don't see darkness
Boy #1 There is no light
Boy #2 I see the sun
Boy #1 darkness is absence of light.
Boy #2 I see the sun
Boy #1 You have darkness in your life
Boy #2 I see the sun
Boy #1 You are knee deep in pornagraphy
Boy #2 I see the sun
Boy #1 You care more for yourself then you wife and kids.
Boy #2 I see the sun
Boy #1 YOu have rejected Jesus
Boy #2 I see the sun
Boy #1 Accept Jesus
Boy #2 No I see the sun
Boy #1 You will die and give and account of your life to God
Boy #2 I see the sun
Boy #1 Lord help him See the Son
Boy #2 dies and from hell he says " I see the Son but it is to late.

This is your conversation with God. You are the boy that sees this world and refused to see beyond it.   What a brood of Vipers and decieved people. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 10:20:43 AM

Quote
You are correct, these petty mortals need to heed my words better

said in a 5 yr old voice.
My God is bigger then your God.   
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on May 03, 2012, 10:23:35 AM
Quote
Boy #1: I have a baseball.
Boy #2: Oh yeah? Prove it.
Boy #1: Taa daa (Shows a baseball)
Boy #2: Cool, ok, we can go play baseball.

or

Boy #1: I have a baseball.
Boy #2: Oh yeah? Prove it.
Boy #1: Prove that it doesn't! I have a baseball and that's all i need, now you need to either accept that i have a baseball or prove that i don't have it!
Boy #2: Dafug?

Boy #1 I have a Eyes
Boy #2 Oh Yeah? Prove it
Boy #1 I see darkness
Boy #2 I don't see darkness
Boy #1 There is no light
Boy #2 I see the sun
Boy #1 darkness is absence of light.
Boy #2 I see the sun
Boy #1 You have darkness in your life
Boy #2 I see the sun
Boy #1 You are knee deep in pornagraphy
Boy #2 I see the sun
Boy #1 You care more for yourself then you wife and kids.
Boy #2 I see the sun
Boy #1 YOu have rejected Jesus
Boy #2 I see the sun
Boy #1 Accept Jesus
Boy #2 No I see the sun
Boy #1 You will die and give and account of your life to God
Boy #2 I see the sun
Boy #1 Lord help him See the Son
Boy #2 dies and from hell he says " I see the Son but it is to late.

This is your conversation with God. You are the boy that sees this world and refused to see beyond it.   What a brood of Vipers and decieved people.

Nathan, you have just ignored my question and decided to do this. You just proved that you're incapable of paying attention to what is being asked of you. Please try again and answer my questions, including my bit about proving that i do not have a kappa in my room or that there wasn't a gnome in my pocket. Your post is nothing but plain ignorance.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Ivellios on May 03, 2012, 10:24:35 AM
My God is bigger then your God.

Oooh. Might makes right! I thought he was "All-Powerful"? Size wouldn't matter if he was!

Psst. It's 'than.'
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on May 03, 2012, 10:25:37 AM
said in a 5 yr old voice.
My God is bigger then your God.   

No god is "bigger" than Me, in virtually every way. They all came to be through My power, and My power alone. Your god is nothing more than one of the thousands of my children, all fighting amongst each other for My approval. They are nothing compared to Me. I am The One Above All.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Nick on May 03, 2012, 10:29:06 AM

Quote
You are correct, these petty mortals need to heed my words better

said in a 5 yr old voice.
My God is bigger then your God.
If your God is so big why did He only have one kid?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 10:29:17 AM
 
Quote
Because the truth cares not for your feelings.
Fully Agree


Quote
A simple, "I'm sorry, I'm not interested." Short & tactful, says everything needed without being outright hurtful. Now, she can move on with her life and you can move on with yours.. guess what? There's over 3 Billion women on this planet, so just because 1 said no, is meaningless.
Agreed

Point is, the "truth" isn't always going to be what you expect it to be... rather, it is hardly what you expected it to be.
[/quote] 

Truth is proof of what we choose to believe and how we precieve things to be.  That is how we continuallly fail to see God for who he truly is.  We Make choices through experiences to either believe of not to believe in God.  Sometimes and unfortunaely more times then Not   the church has failed to represent God.  Thus the reason many of you are none believers.   For that I apologize to all of you that have ever been hurt by the church and ask for your forgiveness.   
 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 10:31:37 AM
Quote
No god is "bigger" than Me, in virtually every way. They all came to be through My power, and My power alone. Your god is nothing more than one of the thousands of my children, all fighting amongst each other for My approval. They are nothing compared to Me. I am The One Above All.

you ar nothing but a cased down theft and fired angel of light.  you sit in the unemployment line of heaven waiting for someone to sin so you can torment them.  You are lower then a snakes belly and I command you to leave this webpage is Jesus Name.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on May 03, 2012, 10:34:35 AM
LOL
NATHAN, you think you can command The One Above All by using the name of one of His children? I sit above every god you have ever heard of, and some no mortal on this planet has heard of. When you die, you will not answer to them; you will answer to Me, so I suggest you take caution in what you say.

By the way, there's an entire planet underneath a snake's belly. That's still a lot bigger than anything you'll ever be.

If you think I am not The One Above All, then I challenge you to prove it.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 10:35:06 AM
Quote
Nathan, you have just ignored my question and decided to do this. You just proved that you're incapable of paying attention to what is being asked of you. Please try again and answer my questions, including my bit about proving that i do not have a kappa in my room or that there wasn't a gnome in my pocket. Your post is nothing but plain ignorance
.

I can not answer a question without knowledge.  Knowledge comes through experience and study. Your question is irrelevant becuase there is not answer nor have I had an experience that would conclude either way.  That is call science. 

You have failed.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on May 03, 2012, 10:35:12 AM
Truth is proof of what we choose to believe and how we precieve things to be.  That is how we continuallly fail to see God for who he truly is.  We Make choices through experiences to either believe of not to believe in God.  Sometimes and unfortunaely more times then Not   the church has failed to represent God.  Thus the reason many of you are none believers.   For that I apologize to all of you that have ever been hurt by the church and ask for your forgiveness.   
 

No, the truth is not proof of anything. if there isn't something that backs up its claim, then it's false. How did we fail to believe in YOUR God? If anything, there was no evidence to prove that YOUR God exists, much less any other Gods. It's not the matter of what we believe that it exists or not, if there is no evidence to prove it, then there is no reason to believe it. Just as i showed you with my example with the boy with the baseball, which you ignored very much.

I was never hurt by the church, i just don't follow something that isn't proven to be factual.

Quote
No god is "bigger" than Me, in virtually every way. They all came to be through My power, and My power alone. Your god is nothing more than one of the thousands of my children, all fighting amongst each other for My approval. They are nothing compared to Me. I am The One Above All.

you ar nothing but a cased down theft and fired angel of light.  you sit in the unemployment line of heaven waiting for someone to sin so you can torment them.  You are lower then a snakes belly and I command you to leave this webpage is Jesus Name.

??? I hope you're joking. If you're serious, then i feel sorry for the teachers at school, they clearly failed you.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on May 03, 2012, 10:38:59 AM
Quote
Nathan, you have just ignored my question and decided to do this. You just proved that you're incapable of paying attention to what is being asked of you. Please try again and answer my questions, including my bit about proving that i do not have a kappa in my room or that there wasn't a gnome in my pocket. Your post is nothing but plain ignorance
.

I can not answer a question without knowledge.  Knowledge comes through experience and study. Your question is irrelevant becuase there is not answer nor have I had an experience that would conclude either way.  That is call science. 

You have failed.

(FACEPALM)

You just don't get it do you?! You not only dodged my questions, but you actually decided to be so condescending by going, "You have failed." You, Nathan, are the one who failed. You hadn't answered my questions, and you haven't even got the concept of what i'm trying to get at. Again, You said, "Prove there isn't a god" I said, "Prove that i don't have a kappa in my room." You clearly didn't get the concept did you? Also, i asked which made more sense to you

Quote
Boy #1: I have a baseball.
Boy #2: Oh yeah? Prove it.
Boy #1: Taa daa (Shows a baseball)
Boy #2: Cool, ok, we can go play baseball.

or

Boy #1: I have a baseball.
Boy #2: Oh yeah? Prove it.
Boy #1: Prove that it doesn't! I have a baseball and that's all i need, now you need to either accept that i have a baseball or prove that i don't have it!
Boy #2: Dafug?
 

Please stop dodging my questions and answer it.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 10:39:31 AM
Quote
you will answer to Me, so I suggest you take caution in what you say.

By the way, there's an entire planet underneath a snake's belly. That's still a lot bigger than anything you'll ever be.

If you think I am not The One Above All, then I challenge you to prove it.

I answer to Jesus Christ my Lord and savior and you have no authority or power over me.  I rebuke you and command you to be blind to my presence and the presence of all believers on this webpage.   I refuse to prove anything and my Lord and savior will protect me and watch over me.  I call God's warrior angels to protect me and my family.  In Jesus name
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on May 03, 2012, 10:41:00 AM
I answer to Jesus Christ my Lord and savior and you have no authority or power over me.

I said AFTER you die you will answer to Me. Every sentient being in the entire multiverse will answer to Me when they die, and I will judge them based on what's Right and True.

Puny mortal, you will answer for your sins directly to Me. You have denied My power, even after all that I have done for you. I brought you back from the brink of death. I gave you a family. You presume yourself even capable of rebelling against Me? You are nothing but specks of dust beneath My fingernails.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: velkyn on May 03, 2012, 10:41:06 AM
I answer to Jesus Christ my Lord and savior and you have no authority or power over me.  I rebuke you and command you to be blind to my presence and the presence of all believers on this webpage.   I refuse to prove anything and my Lord and savior will protect me and watch over me.  I call God's warrior angels to protect me and my family.  In Jesus name

wooogha wooogah.  ;D  Care to shake your shrunken head and dance around for all of the good that any of this does? 

Nice to see you being one more Christian with nothing to support him or his nonsense. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Ivellios on May 03, 2012, 10:43:16 AM
Fully Agree

Agreed

Good, we agree on some things, but what was my first point?

How do you determine what is truth? Follow the facts.

Timtheskeptic clarifies the point I was trying to make.

Nathan... really want to know what caused me to loose my faith? Reading the bible and realizing it was written by bronzeage sexist *a whole bunch of other stuff* men who didn't understand **** on how the world works. Then the realization that no "All-Knowing" "All-anything" god had anything to do with it. That's it.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Hatter23 on May 03, 2012, 10:47:20 AM

Quote
You are correct, these petty mortals need to heed my words better

said in a 5 yr old voice.
My God is bigger then your God.

The relative size is not relevant. I state (1) I exist,(2) I am male,(3) I live in the United States,(4) and I am actually an incarnation of the one and only Loki, the Norse God.

For each of these four claims, do you believe me?, yes or no.



Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Ivellios on May 03, 2012, 10:47:44 AM
you ar nothing but a cased down theft and fired angel of light.  you sit in the unemployment line of heaven waiting for someone to sin so you can torment them.  You are lower then a snakes belly and I command you to leave this webpage is Jesus Name.

I answer to Jesus Christ my Lord and savior and you have no authority or power over me.

I said AFTER you die you will answer to Me. Every sentient being in the entire multiverse will answer to Me when they die, and I will judge them based on what's Right and True.

Proof Lucifer is more powerful than Jesus. ie. Lucifer posted after being banned by Jesus via rebuking by Nathan.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on May 03, 2012, 10:48:38 AM
Proof Lucifer is more powerful than Jesus.

IKR ;D
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Seppuku on May 03, 2012, 10:50:01 AM
NATHAN, you really are ignorant of the people you're talking to and of why atheists think the way they do and how they came to their conclusions. You've had ample opportunity to become educated  on these matters, but instead you'd much prefer to be insulting and derogative towards others simply because they ask for evidence to your claims or some back up to your claims.

Maybe if you were willing to engage us you wouldn't be so ignorant? As far as I can see you're unwilling, so there's no point me taking you seriously. So I guess...hang on a minute, I'm receiving a communication inside of my head. It's telling me things about this universe.

I will type up all that I have learned.


Zathar is real, he has spoken to me. I have felt his presence. Zathar has warned me about false religions, he has warned me that people who do not believe in his existence when presented with mere word of his name then they are people corrupt with only darkness in their hearts who would see this world end. These people will one day perish and Zathar will see to it that they are punished severely for their darkness. But those who accept Zathar, they will ascend to a nebula where they will find a realm of peace, harmony and a many great things, including just about anything you so desire - even free beer. All those in Zathar's Nebula will be considered great and equal and there is much freedom.

Zathar also told me that a Quasar is caused when sentient beings on a planet refuse to accept Zathar and he travels across space to inform people of his existence and prevent this tragedy, but only those who have their hearts open out to Zathar can hear him. The reason he punishes those who remain ignorant of his existence is because they threaten the very worlds we inhabit. Zathar loves all living beings and would not want to see a Quasar form out of our Galaxy. So I am informing you of Zathar so that you may join me in saving our world and ascending to greatness in death.

I am now a true believer as he has revealed himself to me.

If you do not believe Zathar is real then please proceed to prove to me that he is not. Otherwise I cannot possibly take you seriously.

So NATHAN, will you join me in rejecting your false God to become a brother of Zathar? Oh and all you heathens on this board? Zathar will punish you all too, so you best as well become a brother of Zathar too.



Hail Zathar!
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: jaimehlers on May 03, 2012, 10:50:24 AM
Boy #1 I have a Eyes
Boy #2 Oh Yeah? Prove it
Boy #1 I see darkness
Boy #2 I don't see darkness
Boy #1 There is no light
Boy #2 I see the sun
Boy #1 darkness is absence of light.
Boy #2 I see the sun
Boy #1 You have darkness in your life
Boy #2 I see the sun
Boy #1 You are knee deep in pornagraphy
Boy #2 I see the sun
Boy #1 You care more for yourself then you wife and kids.
Boy #2 I see the sun
Boy #1 YOu have rejected Jesus
Boy #2 I see the sun
Boy #1 Accept Jesus
Boy #2 No I see the sun
Boy #1 You will die and give and account of your life to God
Boy #2 I see the sun
Boy #1 Lord help him See the Son
Boy #2 dies and from hell he says " I see the Son but it is to late.

This is your conversation with God. You are the boy that sees this world and refused to see beyond it.   What a brood of Vipers and decieved people.
Seriously?  This is the best rebuttal you can come up with?

Let me state this very simply, in the hope that you'll understand.  You have to be able to provide evidence of a claim, or you should not expect people to believe you.  Threatening people (and yes, claiming they'll go to hell and eternal damnation is a threat) because they aren't willing to accept your claim without evidence is silly.  You might as well say, "Accept Jesus, or you'll be shot in the head".  Do you seriously think a person is going to have a genuine change of heart when faced with a threat like that?

I can think of better ways to convince people to act in a certain way than by such a crude reward/punishment system as Christians have come up with.  Do you seriously think that a deity, presumably smarter than I am, would not even have thought of such ways, or better ones than I could have thought of?  It is telling that your god's methods are as crude as they are - they are all that early Christians could come up with.  In other words, this heaven/hell system is a fiction, the collective imagination of Christian believers who never thought to step back and consider whether that belief made any real sense.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on May 03, 2012, 10:56:19 AM
Seriously?  This is the best rebuttal you can come up with?

Let me state this very simply, in the hope that you'll understand.  You have to be able to provide evidence of a claim, or you should not expect people to believe you.  Threatening people (and yes, claiming they'll go to hell and eternal damnation is a threat) because they aren't willing to accept your claim without evidence is silly.  You might as well say, "Accept Jesus, or you'll be shot in the head".  Do you seriously think a person is going to have a genuine change of heart when faced with a threat like that?

I can think of better ways to convince people to act in a certain way than by such a crude reward/punishment system as Christians have come up with.  Do you seriously think that a deity, presumably smarter than I am, would not even have thought of such ways, or better ones than I could have thought of?  It is telling that your god's methods are as crude as they are - they are all that early Christians could come up with.  In other words, this heaven/hell system is a fiction, the collective imagination of Christian believers who never thought to step back and consider whether that belief made any real sense.

Exactly, that's why i was asking with the question which one makes more sense. He just completely didges the questions we've all been asking him.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 11:13:54 AM
since you asked God makes more sense
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on May 03, 2012, 11:14:30 AM
since you asked God makes more sense

I do make more sense. Thanks for admitting it.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on May 03, 2012, 11:15:00 AM
since you asked God makes more sense

(FACEPALM)
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Seppuku on May 03, 2012, 11:15:56 AM
NATHAN, is Zathar real?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 11:17:03 AM
Quote
The relative size is not relevant. I state (1) I exist,(2) I am male,(3) I live in the United States,(4) and I am actually an incarnation of the one and only Loki, the Norse God.


Ok Let me introduce Jesus to you so we can cast that false demon out of you. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on May 03, 2012, 11:20:36 AM
Ok Let me introduce Jesus to you so we can cast that false demon out of you. 

Loki is My child, NATHAN. If you even dare attempt such a thing, you will answer for it.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 11:21:43 AM
Quote
Let me state this very simply, in the hope that you'll understand.  You have to be able to provide evidence of a claim, or you should not expect people to believe you.  Threatening people (and yes, claiming they'll go to hell and eternal damnation is a threat) because they aren't willing to accept your claim without evidence is silly.  You might as well say, "Accept Jesus, or you'll be shot in the head".  Do you seriously think a person is going to have a genuine change of heart when faced with a threat like that?

It is not a threat it is fact.  If you tell a child don't touch the stove you will get burn is that a threat? You see it as a threat Why? 


Quote
I can think of better ways to convince people to act in a certain way than by such a crude reward/punishment system as Christians have come up with.  Do you seriously think that a deity, presumably smarter than I am, would not even have thought of such ways, or better ones than I could have thought of?  It is telling that your god's methods are as crude as they are - they are all that early Christians could come up with.  In other words, this heaven/hell system is a fiction, the collective imagination of Christian believers who never thought to step back and consider whether that belief made any real sense.
[/quote]  So why is hell a threat to you if it does not exist?  There is a part of you that is not sure and you fear hell. you do not understand christianity at all. it is not about acting a certain way or doing a certain thing. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 11:24:28 AM
lucifer
If I don't help Loki I have to anwser God for it.  I would anwser to Him instead of you.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on May 03, 2012, 11:26:03 AM
If I don't help Loki I have to anwser God for it.  I would anwser to Him instead of you.

The one you refer to as "God" is named "YHWH". I know. I gave him that name. When you die you will not answer to him. You will answer to Me. My decisions overrule any of My children's.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Aaron123 on May 03, 2012, 11:27:32 AM
It is not a threat it is fact.  If you tell a child don't touch the stove you will get burn is that a threat? You see it as a threat Why? 

A stove can be proven hot.

You can't even demostrate that your hell exists.


Quote
So why is hell a threat to you if it does not exist?

The concept of hell is used to scare people into submission.  That is (one of) our problem with it.


Quote
There is a part of you that is not sure and you fear hell.

Nope.  No fear of hell here.  But it is annoying when someone makes us of it as a threat.


Quote
you do not understand christianity at all. it is not about acting a certain way or doing a certain thing.

Being ex-christians, we understand christianity very well.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Emily on May 03, 2012, 11:29:56 AM
I refuse to prove anything and my Lord and savior will protect me and watch over me.  I call God's warrior angels to protect me and my family.  In Jesus name

Why the hell are you here? If you refuse to prove anything then it makes our job harder to believe a word you say.

Just saying.

I mean, if you call god's warrior angels to protect you, you can, but it's pretty pointless on your part.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Seppuku on May 03, 2012, 11:42:28 AM
Lucifer[1] is our true God and Zathar is his son, who is flying across galaxies to save them from the great Quasars.

Care to prove to us how this is false?
 1. The forum member
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on May 03, 2012, 11:45:49 AM
Lucifer[1] is our true God and Zathar is his son, who is flying across galaxies to save them from the great Quasars.

Care to prove to us how this is false?
 1. The forum member

Seppuku, if Zathar revealed himself to you, then we have a problem. I'm going to talk it over with him. He's supposed to handle the next galaxy over, not this one. However, the answer to your question is yes - Zathar is real. He's just not supposed to reveal himself here.
Also, note that I have children in numbers beyond your comprehension. Every god in every religion is My child; not just Zathar.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on May 03, 2012, 11:47:24 AM
Quote
The relative size is not relevant. I state (1) I exist,(2) I am male,(3) I live in the United States,(4) and I am actually an incarnation of the one and only Loki, the Norse God.


Ok Let me introduce Jesus to you so we can cast that false demon out of you.

*Sigh* Nathan, it's quite clear you're not interested in a debate, you're just here to be condescending and ignorant. How about paying attention to what is being said instead of ignoring us and talking total nonsense.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on May 03, 2012, 11:51:01 AM
It is not a threat it is fact.  If you tell a child don't touch the stove you will get burn is that a threat? You see it as a threat Why? 

No, that is a threat. It's not a good comparison here, when you're warning a child not to touch the stove, you're trying to watch out for them, but what you're doing is this, "Believe or burn!" That is a threat. If i held a gun to your head and said, "Believe what i tell you or i shoot," that's a threat and that's what you're doing.

Quote
So why is hell a threat to you if it does not exist?  There is a part of you that is not sure and you fear hell. you do not understand christianity at all. it is not about acting a certain way or doing a certain thing.

Wrong again. It's not that we're afraid, it's just that you're trying to force us to believe what you want us to believe instead of providing evidence for the claims you made. Also, please answer my questions i asked you Nathan. Also, i have a very good understanding of Christianity, having been one, having seen how Christians are like online and offline, i see no reason to believe your threat of hellfire. I'm not scared of your hell because there isn't an evidence for one, but you're trying to indimidate people into being afraid which is what i find rather annoying and is very abusive when you do this to children.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 11:53:00 AM
[.
[/quote]

The one you refer to as "God" is named "YHWH". I know. I gave him that name. When you die you will not answer to him. You will answer to Me. My decisions overrule any of My children's.
[/quote]


Silly devil my soul belong to Jesus.  Be gone from me for I dod not know you. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 11:56:39 AM
Quote
No, that is a threat. It's not a good comparison here, when you're warning a child not to touch the stove, you're trying to watch out for them, but what you're doing is this, "Believe or burn!" That is a threat. If i held a gun to your head and said, "Believe what i tell you or i shoot," that's a threat and that's what you're doing.

No we are trying to watch out for you.  sorry you don't get it.

I am not forcing you to do anything.  You have the choice.  You have eternal life either way,  you get to choose where you go. If you perceive believe or die as someone with a gun to your head I am sorry.  however it is that serious because it is fact not superstition 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Seppuku on May 03, 2012, 11:57:04 AM
Lucifer[1] is our true God and Zathar is his son, who is flying across galaxies to save them from the great Quasars.

Care to prove to us how this is false?
 1. The forum member

Seppuku, if Zathar revealed himself to you, then we have a problem. I'm going to talk it over with him. He's supposed to handle the next galaxy over, not this one. However, the answer to your question is yes - Zathar is real. He's just not supposed to reveal himself here.
Also, note that I have children in numbers beyond your comprehension. Every god in every religion is My child; not just Zathar.

So you're a space pimp? Well played.


I think Zathar was just rather a bit concerned with the fact nobody on this planet believed in him. I guess all this malarkey about Yahweh pushed him over the edge? Don't be too hard on him, I'm sure he meant well.

Quote
Silly devil my soul belong to Jesus.  Be gone from me for I dod not know you.

How do you know he's the devil? Wouldn't it be so like the devil to create 3 religions believing in the same God and have them fight amongst themselves? Jesus is the spawn of the devil, the bible is the devil's word not God, isn't that right Lucifer?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on May 03, 2012, 11:57:41 AM
Silly devil my soul belong to Jesus.  Be gone from me for I dod not know you.

You're a blasphemer, Odin is the true God and you shall answer to him! Muwahahahahahaahahahahaha!
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: jeremy0 on May 03, 2012, 12:02:00 PM
Careful now, we are starting to point fingers and state 'death to the demons, devils, and non-believers', and you Christians are starting to fall under the category of Muslims...
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on May 03, 2012, 12:02:37 PM
Quote
No, that is a threat. It's not a good comparison here, when you're warning a child not to touch the stove, you're trying to watch out for them, but what you're doing is this, "Believe or burn!" That is a threat. If i held a gun to your head and said, "Believe what i tell you or i shoot," that's a threat and that's what you're doing.

No we are trying to watch out for you.  sorry you don't get it.

I am not forcing you to do anything.  You have the choice.  You have eternal life either way,  you get to choose where you go. If you perceive believe or die as someone with a gun to your head I am sorry.  however it is that serious because it is fact not superstition

No, if you're trying to watch out for us, then the best thing to do is to prove your God exists and that your hell exists, but instead you come here and tell us to believe or burn. You are threatening us like all those other Christians here before you.

Also, how is it a choice? If i told you that you have a choice for your bedroom; you have have it anyway you like or you do it my way. If you do it your way, then i shall beat you and burn you for years on end, you will not be allowed to date, you will not be allowed to do anything as you please because you refused to do things my way. That is why it's not a choice.

No, it's supersitition because it's made up in a story and isn't proven to be real.

Also, i ask you again to answer my questions i've given you.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on May 03, 2012, 12:05:59 PM
Silly devil my soul belong to Jesus.  Be gone from me for I dod not know you. 

I am The One Above All, and I do not appreciate this mockery. You will answer for your sins, NATHAN.
You will kneel before My magnificence, but I will show you no mercy, for I have given you all the proof you need, and still you doubt. I have revealed Myself to you through this forum, and through My miracles. I allowed you to live all those years ago. I allowed you to return to your family. Yet you still doubt. My patience has its limits, NATHAN.
To paraphrase one of My sons:
I am the LORD your GOD, and you shall not have any gods before Me.

Accept Me into your heart; live your life as I had planned, and all will be well.


As for your soul, even if it DID belong to Jesus, who do you think Jesus belongs to? I made him. He is My son (and/or grandson, depending on how you look at it). He belongs to Me.

So you're a space pimp? Well played.

Life was popping up everywhere in the universe. I was concerned for you, so I created children in extremely large numbers.

I think Zathar was just rather a bit concerned with the fact nobody on this planet believed in him. I guess all this malarkey about Yahweh pushed him over the edge? Don't be too hard on him, I'm sure he meant well.

I won't, but I explicitly told him - this galaxy belongs to the gods of Earth, Nibiru and a few other worlds you can't pronounce. You can see why I'm a bit upset over this.

How do you know he's the devil? Wouldn't it be so like the devil to create 3 religions believing in the same God and have them fight amongst themselves? Jesus is the spawn of the devil, the bible is the devil's word not God, isn't that right Lucifer?

Well, more or less. There's no actual "Devil", just a few of My children who went "off the rails", so to speak. YHWH happens to be one of them, with the killing and the slaughtering, and the tempting people with those fossils...
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 12:08:46 PM
Silly devil my soul belong to Jesus.  Be gone from me for I dod not know you.

You're a blasphemer, Odin is the true God and you shall answer to him! Muwahahahahahaahahahahaha!
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: jeremy0 on May 03, 2012, 12:09:33 PM
Now then, just as I tried to do at times, is NATHAN seeing the absurdity in his statements now that we've made a similarly ridiculous statement referring to some religious tart?  ^^
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: albeto on May 03, 2012, 12:10:07 PM
Nathan, in all seriousness, do you understand the brain is a very complex organ and our various senses are interpreted via the brain?  Btw, we have many more than the 5 senses most people think of, we have external senses like touch and smell, but also pressure and heat, and we have internal senses like balance and things of which we are not aware - senses that determine how to respond to internal pressure and adjust physiological conditions accordingly.  Anyway, our brain is the center through which these sensory organs "speak," for lack of better words.  At the same time, we perceive these sensory input as an objective observer, only, we're not objective and we don't just observe.  The brain is a highly complex organ that can do all kinds of fascinating things, even when it glitches (as all organs and body systems do). 

For example, did you know that the temporal lobe is responsible for our sense of self in the universe?  One side (I forget which) gives us the perception of place.  The other side gives us the perception of space, that which is not us, or, the "self."  When there is a miscommunication between the two, the effects can feel quite unusual an unexpected.  An individual can feel him or herself out of his/her body, or completely "one" with all of existence, and lots of things in between.  These experiences are real in the sense that they are physical events, biological events, however, they are explained by electric currents and neural pathways, not demons.  I suggest the experiences you've had, as real as they seem (and were), are not explained by "others" but by you - specifically, your brain is responding to stimuli that isn't there.  The response is real, the experience is real, the demons are not.

Check out how scientists can manipulate these experiences on command:

http://youtu.be/y02UlkYjSi0
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on May 03, 2012, 12:10:18 PM
Silly devil my soul belong to Jesus.  Be gone from me for I dod not know you.

You're a blasphemer, Odin is the true God and you shall answer to him! Muwahahahahahaahahahahaha!
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I'm glad you think it's funny, but i doubt you understood the concept of it. Now, answer my questions Nathan.



Quote
Which one makes more sense to you?

Boy #1: I have a baseball.
Boy #2: Oh yeah? Prove it.
Boy #1: Taa daa (Shows a baseball)
Boy #2: Cool, ok, we can go play baseball.

or

Boy #1: I have a baseball.
Boy #2: Oh yeah? Prove it.
Boy #1: Prove that it doesn't! I have a baseball and that's all I need, now you need to either accept that i have a baseball or prove that I don't have it!
Boy #2: Dafug?

Quote
Nathan, can you prove that there isn't a kappa in my room? Can you prove that there wasn't a gnome in my pocket? seriously, you're saying, "Prove there isn't a god" because you refuse to accept the fact that you made the claim that there's a god. Why can't you just prove that there is a God? Proving that something doesn't exist cannot happen because we're not the one who made the claim. Can you prove there isn't Odin or Zeus?

Quote
If I told you that you have a choice for your bedroom; you can have it any way you like or you do it my way. If you do it your way, then I shall beat you and burn you for years on end, you will not be allowed to date, you will not be allowed to do anything as you please because you refused to do things my way.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 12:14:25 PM
Quote
I am The One Above All, and I do not appreciate this mockery. You will answer for your sins, NATHAN.
Nope Jesus died on the cross so I don't have to.

Quote
You will kneel before My magnificence, but I will show you no mercy, for I have given you all the proof you need, and still you doubt. I have revealed Myself to you through this forum, and through My miracles. I allowed you to live all those years ago. I allowed you to return to your family. Yet you still doubt. My patience has its limits, NATHAN.
I bow to no God but Jesus.

Quote
To paraphrase one of My sons:
I am the LORD your GOD, and you shall not have any gods before Me.

Accept Me into your heart; live your life as I had planned, and all will be well

As for your soul, even if it DID belong to Jesus, who do you think Jesus belongs to? I made him. He is My son (and/or grandson, depending on how you look at it). He belongs to Me..


Wrong Again you have no proof as everytime I use the name Jesus you must submit to the Holy, Holy Holy God.  The I am, the Alpha and Omega.  He was before you and created you.   you prideful destroyed creature living in darkness for eternity.  When you see the Clouds to the east you know your time will end.  My future is in eternal heaven, your future is torment in the lake of fire for all of eternity. 

Jesus please come back soon. 

So you're a space pimp? Well played.

Life was popping up everywhere in the universe. I was concerned for you, so I created children in extremely large numbers.

I think Zathar was just rather a bit concerned with the fact nobody on this planet believed in him. I guess all this malarkey about Yahweh pushed him over the edge? Don't be too hard on him, I'm sure he meant well.

I won't, but I explicitly told him - this galaxy belongs to the gods of Earth, Nibiru and a few other worlds you can't pronounce. You can see why I'm a bit upset over this.

How do you know he's the devil? Wouldn't it be so like the devil to create 3 religions believing in the same God and have them fight amongst themselves? Jesus is the spawn of the devil, the bible is the devil's word not God, isn't that right Lucifer?

Well, more or less. There's no actual "Devil", just a few of My children who went "off the rails", so to speak. YHWH happens to be one of them, with the killing and the slaughtering, and the tempting people with those fossils...
[/quote]
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: screwtape on May 03, 2012, 12:15:36 PM
Nathan,

I need you to dial back on the sermons.  You do not need to get all "Billy Graham" to answer the questions asked of you.

Also, you've been a little sloppy with your quoting.  Please use the Preview button, right next to the Post button, before you post. 

Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 12:17:56 PM
To appease your silly line of questioning becuase you think it is relevant

Probably the first set
With all the nagging you might be female.   :o




Quote
Which one makes more sense to you?

Boy #1: I have a baseball.
Boy #2: Oh yeah? Prove it.
Boy #1: Taa daa (Shows a baseball)
Boy #2: Cool, ok, we can go play baseball.

or
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 12:19:31 PM
Nathan,

I need you to dial back on the sermons.  You do not need to get all "Billy Graham" to answer the questions asked of you.

Also, you've been a little sloppy with your quoting.  Please use the Preview button, right next to the Post button, before you post. 



Thank you screw tape I have been sloppy.  My apologies to the forum.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: jaimehlers on May 03, 2012, 12:19:43 PM
It is not a threat it is fact.  If you tell a child don't touch the stove you will get burn is that a threat? You see it as a threat Why?
You can prove that a fact exists.  You cannot prove hell to exist, you can only state that it does (with only anecdotal evidence as support, which is neither convincing nor compelling).  Therefore it is not a fact.  As for why it is a threat and not a warning, it is as simple as the difference between, "don't touch the stove, you'll burn yourself", a warning, and "don't touch the stove or I'll spank you", a threat.  You are passing on the threat of being sent to hell, but it is still a threat even if it is not a threat you personally can carry out.

Quote from: NATHAN
So why is hell a threat to you if it does not exist?  There is a part of you that is not sure and you fear hell. you do not understand christianity at all. it is not about acting a certain way or doing a certain thing.
This is sophistry, and it is not even good sophistry.  Furthermore, it betrays your own fundamental misunderstanding of Christianity.

The thing is, I don't consider hell to be a personal threat.  But there are plenty of people who you and misguided believers like you have cowed with your statements about heaven and hell, which you can in no way demonstrate to anyone.  Should I simply stay quiet and let you continue to cow them because I personally am not threatened by your conception of hell?  No, I will not.

And as for your statement that Christianity is not about acting a certain way or doing a certain thing, this is belied by the fact that Christians have to accept Jesus as their lord and savior in order to be Christians - there's "doing a certain thing" - and then they have to act in a way consistent with the teachings of Jesus - there's "acting a certain way".  It seems like you need to spend less time talking about heaven and hell, and more time understanding the religion you believe in.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 12:26:14 PM
Quote
And as for your statement that Christianity is not about acting a certain way or doing a certain thing, this is belied by the fact that Christians have to accept Jesus as their lord and savior in order to be Christians - there's "doing a certain thing" - and then they have to act in a way consistent with the teachings of Jesus - there's "acting a certain way".  It seems like you need to spend less time talking about heaven and hell, and more time understanding the religion you believe in.

So I fear people in to accepting Christ because I believe through my life experience there is a hell and people will spend eternity there.  I applaud you for standing up for your beliefs and I respect them but I have seen demons, had experiences that prove Lucifer exists (still has no power) and seeks to destroy people for eternity.  There is only one way to know and that will be the day we all die.  in that day we will know if we are right or wrong.   

You do have to accept the gift of Salvation through Jesus.  Your right.  I bet if someone offered you a millions you would take it. 

I am trying to present fact and I am sorry if you take it as intimated  but there is a time coming when I guess we will all know the truth about heaven or hell. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on May 03, 2012, 12:31:39 PM
Nope Jesus died on the cross so I don't have to.

...Nobody has to die on the cross. Dammit, I told YHWH the cross thing was exaggerated... Anyway, you don't have to die on the cross, but you're still going to die. All living beings must die. That is the way that I have set things. Only gods will live forever.

I bow to no God but Jesus.

I said kneel, not bow. You will kneel before My magnificence in a futile attempt to beg for my forgiveness. After all that I have done for you, NATHAN, you do not deserve it.

Wrong Again you have no proof as everytime I use the name Jesus you must submit to the Holy, Holy Holy God.

If I really did submit to the child you worship, why have I not left this forum? Because he is My child. I am The One Above All, and he knows it. All of My children know they cannot challenge Me. I am far beyond their powers. They are nothing compared to Me.

The I am, the Alpha and Omega.

Alpha and Omega? Bitch, please, I am the Blorg and the Zaneck. Alpha and Omega are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet, respectively. Blorg and Zaneck are the first and last letters of the first and last alphabet in all the multiverse, respectively.
Also, "I am" is nothing. He just said that to sound cryptic and "cool".

He was before you and created you.

Wrong, Einstein. I created the multiverse. Everything you see before you today is a result of My Perfect handiwork.

you prideful destroyed creature living in darkness for eternity.

I am Light, Truth and Goodness. You cannot comprehend My power. You are beneath Me.

When you see the Clouds to the east you know your time will end.

Right now it's raining where most of My being is... Still waiting for one of My children to try to take my power.

My future is in eternal heaven, your future is torment in the lake of fire for all of eternity.

Your future is where I say it is, puny mortal. As for Me, I exist everywhere - all times, all universes, all realities. This will never change.

Jesus please come back soon. 

I told him not to, so he won't.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Aaron123 on May 03, 2012, 12:36:25 PM
So I fear people in to accepting Christ because I believe through my life experience there is a hell and people will spend eternity there.  I applaud you for standing up for your beliefs and I respect them but I have seen demons, had experiences that prove Lucifer exists (still has no power) and seeks to destroy people for eternity.  There is only one way to know and that will be the day we all die.  in that day we will know if we are right or wrong.   

You do have to accept the gift of Salvation through Jesus.  Your right.  I bet if someone offered you a millions you would take it. 

I am trying to present fact and I am sorry if you take it as intimated  but there is a time coming when I guess we will all know the truth about heaven or hell.

Oh please, Pascal's wager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager)?  Is that all you got?  How pathetic.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: velkyn on May 03, 2012, 12:38:51 PM
I am trying to present fact and I am sorry if you take it as intimated  but there is a time coming when I guess we will all know the truth about heaven or hell.

pitiful religion that has only fear and greed to motivate its followers.  I do always love each Christian sure that their little sadistic fantasies of the "end times" will come true.  I'm figuring Nate is sure he's right and sure his god wouldnt' make Nathan have to die before getting into heaven.  Pity that generations of Christians have been waiting for the very same thing and making same little threats.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 12:40:41 PM
lucifer go jump in a lake a fiery lake.   :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on May 03, 2012, 12:41:49 PM
Pathetic human. You cannot recognize The One Above All even if I was standing right in front of you. I knew I should've simply prevented life from existing.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 12:49:59 PM
great video that proves the potential for things to occur we don't understand. 

Since demon are comprised of energy it proves that in proximity to the entities our brain can receive information. 

To make the test valid they would have to do it with believers and none believers in a blind test and correlate the evidence. 

Otherwise this proves nothing more then a magnetic force effects the mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZbQBajYnEc 

here is a video proving tongues in a cat scan. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: velkyn on May 03, 2012, 12:55:55 PM
great video that proves the potential for things to occur we don't understand. 

Since demon are comprised of energy it proves that in proximity to the entities our brain can receive information. 
Nate, you haven't even shown that demons exist, much less what they are made of.   

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/health/07brain.html

and hmmm, now speaking in tongues is from demons rather than this god of yours.  Great to see you disagreeing with the other Christians as always.

As the study actually says, it's a neurological thing.  No gods or demons needed. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 01:03:45 PM
great video that proves the potential for things to occur we don't understand. 

Since demon are comprised of energy it proves that in proximity to the entities our brain can receive information. 
Nate, you haven't even shown that demons exist, much less what they are made of.   

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/health/07brain.html

and hmmm, now speaking in tongues is from demons rather than this god of yours.  Great to see you disagreeing with the other Christians as always.

As the study actually says, it's a neurological thing.  No gods or demons needed.

See how we all play the game of belief and disbelief.  We can always find what we want to believe.   This whole exercise was to prove that those that do not want Jesus will do every skeptical thing in their imagination to debunk it.  You all have passed with flying colors. 

Good job lucifer setting this up they all fell for it. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on May 03, 2012, 01:07:00 PM
Good job lucifer setting this up they all fell for it. 

I gave all sentient beings free will. I do not control what they do.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Hatter23 on May 03, 2012, 01:09:06 PM
Pehaps Ambassador Pony is right, that or Nathan is mentally retarded.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on May 03, 2012, 01:10:16 PM
Pehaps Ambassador Pony is right, that or Nathan is mentally retarded.

That would be my guess.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 01:18:05 PM
Pehaps Ambassador Pony is right, that or Nathan is mentally retarded.

now now lets leave those that can't defend themselves out this.  Stop labeling people.  Good luck folks I am singing off.  your lack of proof that god does not exist forces me to believe you are crazy.

In all seriousness thank all of you that responded.  it is always good to get different perspectives.  I will have to figure out a way to get proof for all of you.  it obviously will take time. 

Be Blessed and I pray God does show himself to all of you acceptp Lucifer you already know he exists. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on May 03, 2012, 01:21:16 PM
Be Blessed and I pray God does show himself to all of you acceptp Lucifer you already know he exists. 

Proof that NATHAN's brain isn't working properly.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Hatter23 on May 03, 2012, 01:31:57 PM
  We can always find what we want to believe. 

Wrong. I'd like to believe that love ones didn't get sick and die, that there were tens of thousands of people suffering from malnutrition, that the US isn't going to still get itself ensnared into wars in the middle east, and people who believe in Bronze age farie tales would be in such great numbers to affect public policy.

I'd like to believe it, but it isn't true.

Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 01:39:27 PM
Agreed I wish people would not get sick but they do becuase we live in a natural world. I wish that people starving all over the world could be fed but greed does not allow that to happen.  I wish that the people being slaughtered just becuase they are of a different ethniticity was not happening but it does becuase racism reigns in someplaces.  I wish war would end but deep hatered does not letthat happen.  I wish God would appear so everyone could see Him but why should he since the last time he was her he go cruxified.

We live in a sick dying world bound on self distruction becuase of lucifer. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on May 03, 2012, 01:40:47 PM
NATHAN, it isn't nice to spread lies. I have nothing to do with what's happening.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Hatter23 on May 03, 2012, 01:51:31 PM
Agreed I wish people would not get sick but they do becuase we live in a natural world.


But you just claimed:
Quote
  We can always find what we want to believe.

Which is it? You are making contradictory claims.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 02:02:42 PM
no one must realize we live in a natural world with disease.  anyother opinion is not logical
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: caveat_imperator on May 03, 2012, 02:15:16 PM
Jesus please come back soon. 

I told him not to, so he won't.

Over 2000 years and counting; yet another bit of evidence that Lucifer is more powerful than nathan's god. ;D
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: jeremy0 on May 03, 2012, 02:15:29 PM
no one must realize we live in a natural world with disease.  anyother opinion is not logical
According to the bible you believe in, all sickness - colds, flus, headaches, were caused by demons, and the term disease may not have even existed at the time..  Any other opinion is not logical - demons were the explanation for ailments according to the bible, and the physicians of the time, including Jesus, were also miracle-healers, which at the time, were actually a dime-a-dozen.  Numerous miraculous miracle-workers, however, Jesus sticks out as the religious highlight of an ancient great physician...
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: caveat_imperator on May 03, 2012, 02:17:06 PM
With all the nagging you might be female.

With all your stupidity you must be a creationist.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on May 03, 2012, 02:20:44 PM
Over 2000 years and counting; yet another bit of evidence that Lucifer is more powerful than nathan's god. ;D

And NATHAN refuses to believe it... Oh well...
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Hatter23 on May 03, 2012, 02:23:04 PM
no one must realize we live in a natural world with disease.  anyother opinion is not logical
So your previous statment was incorrect. You acknowledge you are capable of making incorrect judgements.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 02:41:00 PM

According to the bible you believe in, all sickness - colds, flus, headaches, were caused by demons, and the term disease may not have even existed at the time..  Any other opinion is not logical - demons were the explanation for ailments according to the bible, and the physicians of the time, including Jesus, were also miracle-healers, which at the time, were actually a dime-a-dozen.  Numerous miraculous miracle-workers, however, Jesus sticks out as the religious highlight of an ancient great physician...
[/quote]

Your interpetation of sickness is incorrect.  Becuase of Adam and Eves sin we all experience death, pain, suffering etc.  It was not caused by god it is the natural world we live in. You guys make it more spiritual then I do Wow
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Seppuku on May 03, 2012, 02:42:12 PM
Pehaps Ambassador Pony is right, that or Nathan is mentally retarded.

now now lets leave those that can't defend themselves out this.  Stop labeling people.  Good luck folks I am singing off.  your lack of proof that god does not exist forces me to believe you are crazy.

In all seriousness thank all of you that responded.  it is always good to get different perspectives.  I will have to figure out a way to get proof for all of you.  it obviously will take time. 

Be Blessed and I pray God does show himself to all of you acceptp Lucifer you already know he exists.

You've yet to prove Zathar does not exist, yet Lucifer and I have given our testimony to his existence. You know Zathar demands that you give up your God for him because he will save the world from the Quasars and those who believe in him will be granted an eternity in his special Nebula where you're able to have all that you wish and live in harmony. Why worship your God when Zathar actually exists and the consequence of not worshipping him is the potential risk of destroying the earth and you be severely punished for it.

Can you prove to me that my statements are wrong?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 02:42:20 PM
no one must realize we live in a natural world with disease.  anyother opinion is not logical
So your previous statment was incorrect. You acknowledge you are capable of making incorrect judgements.

Can't we all be wrong at some point and time.  I never claimed to know everything. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 02:45:58 PM
Pehaps Ambassador Pony is right, that or Nathan is mentally retarded.

now now lets leave those that can't defend themselves out this.  Stop labeling people.  Good luck folks I am singing off.  your lack of proof that god does not exist forces me to believe you are crazy.

In all seriousness thank all of you that responded.  it is always good to get different perspectives.  I will have to figure out a way to get proof for all of you.  it obviously will take time. 

Be Blessed and I pray God does show himself to all of you acceptp Lucifer you already know he exists.

You've yet to prove Zathar does not exist, yet Lucifer and I have given our testimony to his existence. You know Zathar demands that you give up your God for him because he will save the world from the Quasars and those who believe in him will be granted an eternity in his special Nebula where you're able to have all that you wish and live in harmony. Why worship your God when Zathar actually exists and the consequence of not worshipping him is the potential risk of destroying the earth and you be severely punished for it.

Can you prove to me that my statements are wrong?

Nope Zather exists.  is a childs game called War of warcraft.  Does your mommy know your are playing with matches?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: voodoo child on May 03, 2012, 02:46:37 PM
Agreed I wish people would not get sick but they do becuase we live in a natural world. I wish that people starving all over the world could be fed but greed does not allow that to happen.  I wish that the people being slaughtered just becuase they are of a different ethniticity was not happening but it does becuase racism reigns in someplaces.  I wish war would end but deep hatered does not letthat happen.  I wish God would appear so everyone could see Him but why should he since the last time he was her he go cruxified.

We live in a sick dying world bound on self distruction becuase of lucifer.

Nathan, you have a very sad view of our planet. You need a boatload of meds and years of therapy.
There is no god there never was. Get over it and learn to live this life and appreciate it.
I can't believe one of these nut bags may run the USA it's a very scary thought.
Yahweh believers on one side, Allah believers on the other. I feel such sorrow for all the mammals on my doomed planet.

beer anyone? 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: velkyn on May 03, 2012, 02:46:46 PM
Your interpetation of sickness is incorrect.  Becuase of Adam and Eves sin we all experience death, pain, suffering etc.  It was not caused by god it is the natural world we live in. You guys make it more spiritual then I do Wow

isn't it great how human ability has basically said in so many cases "fuck you god, so much for your punishment of disease"? 

Nice to see that you, Nate, pick and choose what you want your god to be responsible for.  such a pretty magic decoder ring you have. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Hatter23 on May 03, 2012, 02:47:07 PM
no one must realize we live in a natural world with disease.  anyother opinion is not logical
So your previous statment was incorrect. You acknowledge you are capable of making incorrect judgements.

Can't we all be wrong at some point and time.  I never claimed to know everything.

Fine. You acknowledge you can be wrong. Good.

Demonstrate to me that you weren't wrong when you thought you saw demons.

 
Furthermore, and without dodging, answer my four questions:


I state (1) I exist,(2) I am male,(3) I live in the United States,(4) and I am actually an incarnation of the one and only Loki, the Norse God.

For each of these four claims, do you believe me?, yes or no.





Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Seppuku on May 03, 2012, 02:48:58 PM


You've yet to prove Zathar does not exist, yet Lucifer and I have given our testimony to his existence. You know Zathar demands that you give up your God for him because he will save the world from the Quasars and those who believe in him will be granted an eternity in his special Nebula where you're able to have all that you wish and live in harmony. Why worship your God when Zathar actually exists and the consequence of not worshipping him is the potential risk of destroying the earth and you be severely punished for it.

Can you prove to me that my statements are wrong?

Nope Zather exists.  is a childs game called War of warcraft.  Does your mommy know your are playing with matches?

He doesn't exist in World of Warcraft, Zathar doesn't have the time to play WoW, he's busy saving the universe. As Zathar is real, you are condemning yourself and putting our planet at risk by not worshipping him.

If you cannot prove that my statements are wrong, then I cannot take you seriously.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 02:49:16 PM
those that want to have demons here you go.

http://www.gods-and-monsters.com/list-of-demon-names.html
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 03, 2012, 02:50:28 PM
you were serious about Zathar,  I tell what I was told you need professional help
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on May 03, 2012, 02:50:42 PM
those that want to have demons here you go.

http://www.gods-and-monsters.com/list-of-demon-names.html

Gimme a few minutes while I read those names.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: jaimehlers on May 03, 2012, 02:52:34 PM
So I fear people in to accepting Christ because I believe through my life experience there is a hell and people will spend eternity there.  I applaud you for standing up for your beliefs and I respect them but I have seen demons, had experiences that prove Lucifer exists (still has no power) and seeks to destroy people for eternity.  There is only one way to know and that will be the day we all die.  in that day we will know if we are right or wrong.
Let me correct your grammar here.  You terrify people into believing in Jesus because your experiences in life lead you to believe that hell exists and that people will spend eternity there.  So...what difference is there between your actions and the actions of other people who use terror to force others into accepting something they want?  The simple fact is that there isn't.  It's wrong to use terror to try to force people into making a decision the way you want them to.  The means you use shapes the end you seek.

Quote from: NATHAN
You do have to accept the gift of Salvation through Jesus.  Your right.  I bet if someone offered you a millions you would take it.
If someone offered me a million dollars, with the same terms as your salvation through Jesus, you had better believe I wouldn't accept it.  "If you worship me for all your days, I'll give you a million dollars after you die".  See the problem?  This gift of eternal life doesn't come until after someone dies.  What sense is there in that?  The reason for this Christian belief is because it's impossible to verify anything that happens after someone dies, therefore promises about what happens after death are "safe".  People don't want to believe that once they die, that's it, so they buy into those promises about what happens after, wrongly believing that they're better off by believing than by not believing.

Quote from: NATHAN
I am trying to present fact and I am sorry if you take it as intimated  but there is a time coming when I guess we will all know the truth about heaven or hell.
The thing is, you aren't presenting fact.  You're presenting opinion.  You have no evidence, no way to prove your statements true.  By definition, then, what you're saying is your opinion.  And to be blunt, I'm not at all intimidated by your opinion on this matter.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on May 03, 2012, 02:52:53 PM
Alright. Try to exorcise me now. We'll see what happens.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Seppuku on May 03, 2012, 02:53:09 PM
you were serious about Zathar,  I tell what I was told you need professional help

Given my claims have no less weight than yours, so shall we go seek professional help together?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Ambassador Pony on May 03, 2012, 03:48:54 PM
Nathan, I have issued you a warning for trolling. You will cease pretending to be an idiot in order to take advantage of the forum membership. If you are not interested in engaging in earnest, as the person you actually are, then you should move on. This is not a place for playing pretend and being selfish.

The consequence for further transgressions is having all of your posts moderated by a responsible adult.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Historicity on May 03, 2012, 09:39:30 PM
you were serious about Zathar,  I tell what I was told you need professional help
Given my claims have no less weight than yours, so shall we go seek professional help together?

The question is -- will Nurse Ratchet let you watch sports championships?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on May 03, 2012, 10:44:37 PM
To appease your silly line of questioning becuase you think it is relevant

Probably the first set
With all the nagging you might be female.   :o

Wow, sexist much? I'm a man Nathan and i am only asking this because you are ignoring my questions.




Quote
Which one makes more sense to you?

Boy #1: I have a baseball.
Boy #2: Oh yeah? Prove it.
Boy #1: Taa daa (Shows a baseball)
Boy #2: Cool, ok, we can go play baseball.

or

Ok, so you're saying that the former makes more sense. good. but you were doing the latter. now the other two questions Nathan.


quotes fixed
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on May 03, 2012, 10:59:33 PM
Here’s what we can see with you Nathan

You use the no true Scotsman fallacy, you think you’re the “true Christian.”

You use Pascal’s wager, as did many Christians before you. You didn’t pay attention when we told you how the Pascal’s wager failed.

You consider anecdotes and youtube videos as proof of demon possession, but never try to understand the mind and how things can be explained, but instead you just go, “See, demon.”

After we give you answers to your posts, you just ignore our questions, make assumption about us, and you keep repeating yourself.

When I asked you some of the questions, you decided to ignore it or give completely dodge the question. Now, you decided to insult my intelligence and even just gave one weak answer to one question.

You then just threatened us with hell and proclaimed it isn’t threat and look down on us. It just tells us a lot more about you.

You’re inconsiderate, you’re condescending, and you’re a troll.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Anfauglir on May 04, 2012, 03:07:49 AM
Quote
I refuse nothing.  Explain to me, simply and clearly, how I can have a personal experience with your god.  But I expect two things from that explanation.  Firstly, I want your guarantee that if I follow your words exactly, I will get that personal experience.

Do you really want Him in your life?  If not this is an exercise in futility. Also I am charged to assist you in this process and am making myself available to you. 

Thank you for that Nathan - but I didn't see in there your guarantee that I would have that personal experience.

I'm also confused - at one stage you say "church isn't important", but later you say "find a local church".  Which is it?

Actually, where I live, a mosque is nearer to me than a church - would that be acceptable?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 04, 2012, 06:46:47 AM

Quote
I'm also confused - at one stage you say "church isn't important", but later you say "find a local church".  Which is it?


Church is a body of People that believe in Jesus.  It does not mean a big building.  I have issues with the corporate still church system in the US.  There is no way for 10,000 people to be discipled correctly. It is about a small group of people with relation to assist each other. That is church. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: NATHAN on May 04, 2012, 06:48:50 AM
you were serious about Zathar,  I tell what I was told you need professional help

Given my claims have no less weight than yours, so shall we go seek professional help together?

I find that extremely funny.  if you live in the upstate NY are sure I go with you for counseling.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on May 04, 2012, 06:50:01 AM
You know, I walked into a church once. By some kind of crazy coincidence, the area was hit with an earthquake and it burst into flames almost at the same time. Sucks, right? =/
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Seppuku on May 04, 2012, 07:33:41 AM
you were serious about Zathar,  I tell what I was told you need professional help

Given my claims have no less weight than yours, so shall we go seek professional help together?

I find that extremely funny.  if you live in the upstate NY are sure I go with you for counseling.

Well, I recommend it anyway. ;)
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: HAL on May 04, 2012, 07:40:45 AM
I asked a Christian once why I couldn't get Satan to appear so I could sell him my soul or why other characters wouldn't appear such as demons. They said they didn't have to appear to me because I was already lost and would be Satan's property anyway so He didn't have to waste his time with me. Hmmm.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Asmoday on May 04, 2012, 07:41:21 AM
You know, I walked into a church once. By some kind of crazy coincidence, the area was hit with an earthquake and it burst into flames almost at the same time. Sucks, right? =/
I know, right? That happens to me all the time.

Though I don't go into churches a lot anymore. I was told from the higher-ups that what I made the bishop do with the nuns last time was considered a bit much.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: One Above All on May 04, 2012, 08:09:38 AM
Though I don't go into churches a lot anymore. I was told from the higher-ups that what I made the bishop do with the nuns last time was considered a bit much.

You're lucky. I've been banned from churches all over the world entirely. Something about being the spawn of Satan or whatever.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Anfauglir on May 04, 2012, 08:31:51 AM
And now you've ignored it twice.

I want your guarantee that if I follow your words exactly, I will get that personal experience.

Why is this so hard for you to give?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: velkyn on May 04, 2012, 10:05:16 AM
those that want to have demons here you go.

http://www.gods-and-monsters.com/list-of-demon-names.html

love that website. 
Quote
NEVER SAY A DEMON'S NAME OUT LOUD. I repeat: NEVER SAY A DEMON'S NAME OUT LOUD.

Hmm, Furfur looks fun (Mike, the site's owner claims she's a countess in hell but wikipedia and their source A. Crowley  &)  has that *he's* a great earl of Hell) .  Furfur! Furfur! Furfur!   Hmmm, nothing.  Hastur! Hastur! Hastur!  (ooooh I'm in trouble now  ;D)

and I have a mosque (in an ex-church!) and a couple of synagogues nearer to me than a church. Those okay for getting your god's attention, Nate?   But I can find a church.  Which kind are TrueChristianstm in your estimation? 

Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Historicity on May 04, 2012, 10:27:35 AM
Hmm, Furfur looks fun (Mike, the site's owner claims she's a countess in hell but wikipedia and their source A. Crowley  &)  has that *he's* a great earl of Hell) .

Maybe she's the same as Lucy Fur:

(http://www.thedevilbear.com/bios/png/lucy.png) (http://www.thedevilbear.com/bio7.html)

Devils can change their gender over time.  Astaroth has been male for a couple thousand years but was Astarte, aka Ishtar in the ANE.

Conversely, that paltry list does not have Belphegor.  All countries, it seems, have a patron saint.  St. Edward the Confessor for England for instance.  France, too, has St. Denis as their patron saint.  But France is so (dis)honored that it has a patron devil -- Belphegor.  Some time after he got the job as ambassador to/governor of France he changed to female.   She appears as a woman in a robe with a mask covering most of her face.  She is said to be very beautiful or very terrible or both.

A year ago there was an incident in France when a woman (a lawyer no less) sneered at a Moslem woman in a burka at a supermarket as "Belphegor".

There is a French novel made into a movie a couple times about Belphegor sneaking around the Louvre at night and killing some people.  Spoiler:  It's a woman burglar/murderess in a costume.

Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: velkyn on May 04, 2012, 11:13:36 AM
you have the coolest details, Historicity.   :)
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Seppuku on May 04, 2012, 12:44:18 PM
Quote
NEVER SAY A DEMON'S NAME OUT LOUD. I repeat: NEVER SAY A DEMON'S NAME OUT LOUD.

Wasn't there a big oral culture before the old and new testaments were written? I wonder how they communicated the names of these demons before they were eventually recorded?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: velkyn on May 04, 2012, 12:45:19 PM
^^^^ semaphore  8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91_jymgH8QY
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Seppuku on May 04, 2012, 12:55:56 PM
lol!


Oh and this has become my new favourite site:

How to Become a Werewolf (http://www.gods-and-monsters.com/ways-to-become-a-werewolf.html)
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Nick on May 04, 2012, 01:32:39 PM
I want to say the name of a demon out loud.  Give me one or a few.  This should be a fun weekend. ;)
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: jaimehlers on May 04, 2012, 05:10:06 PM
The "don't say an evil being's name out loud" came from the idea that names had power.  If you said a name out loud, it might hear you and take notice.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Nick on May 04, 2012, 05:13:59 PM
Like saying "beatlejuice 3 times"?
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: nogodsforme on May 04, 2012, 05:28:32 PM
The "don't say an evil being's name out loud" came from the idea that names had power.  If you said a name out loud, it might hear you and take notice.

Oookay. Demons only notice you if you say their names....because they have human-style ears. Right. Why am I not scared yet? &)
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Nick on May 04, 2012, 07:46:30 PM
Bob, Bob, Bob...Sam, Sam, Sam,... Oliver, Oliver, Oliver
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: voodoo child on May 04, 2012, 11:14:36 PM
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/McLeay_F1/Christine09-1.jpg)

 Got to love them demons, would love to take one for a test drive… ;)

Still nothing.            sigh.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: voodoo child on May 04, 2012, 11:25:09 PM
extra big moon tonight. that could, work.  &)
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Astreja on May 05, 2012, 12:56:50 AM
Devils can change their gender over time.  Astaroth has been male for a couple thousand years but was Astarte, aka Ishtar in the ANE.

So the words 'god' and 'devil' are interchangeable, then?  That would explain rather a lot about Yahweh...
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Rustybeatz on May 05, 2012, 01:55:43 AM
those that want to have demons here you go.

http://www.gods-and-monsters.com/list-of-demon-names.html

love that website. 
Quote
NEVER SAY A DEMON'S NAME OUT LOUD. I repeat: NEVER SAY A DEMON'S NAME OUT LOUD.

Hmm, Furfur looks fun (Mike, the site's owner claims she's a countess in hell but wikipedia and their source A. Crowley  &)  has that *he's* a great earl of Hell) .  Furfur! Furfur! Furfur!   Hmmm, nothing.  Hastur! Hastur! Hastur!  (ooooh I'm in trouble now  ;D)

and I have a mosque (in an ex-church!) and a couple of synagogues nearer to me than a church. Those okay for getting your god's attention, Nate?   But I can find a church.  Which kind are TrueChristianstm in your estimation?

I just visited that website and screamed out almost all the demon's names.  Nothing happened yet.  I'm also drunk right now, does that make me more susceptible to demons?  WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN???  haha
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Seppuku on May 05, 2012, 04:59:38 AM
Nothing, have another beer. ;)
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Timtheskeptic on May 05, 2012, 10:19:39 AM
Nothing, have another beer. ;)

i concur, demons are often spoken many times and nothing happened. enjoy your beer.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Nick on May 05, 2012, 10:40:34 AM
I think you have to be dancing naked in the moodlight saying their name for anything to happen.  Man, I'm going to need some of that beer also to pull this one off.
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: ParkingPlaces on May 05, 2012, 10:42:18 AM
Like saying "beatlejuice 3 times"?

Or typing it once...
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: Rustybeatz on May 05, 2012, 03:44:20 PM
Nothing, have another beer. ;)

You are a true prophet as both of those things happened.  For one, nothing happened, and after that I did have another beer. 

I feel great today, btw. 
Title: Re: Demon Possession
Post by: jeremy0 on May 06, 2012, 12:21:14 AM
Say my name - I'm apparently counted as demon..  I might take possession of your fake soul..   :-\