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Main Discussion Zone => General Religious Discussion => Topic started by: Truth OT on September 13, 2011, 02:43:05 PM

Title: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Truth OT on September 13, 2011, 02:43:05 PM
I have seen the following quote and others like it quite often.

Quote
So show it.  Show how the bible supports you and only you.

I have then proceeded to jump in and go back and forth without addressing first, something of fundemental importance and that is that I MAKE NO SUCH BROAD CLAIMS!
Arguments based on this line of reasoning tend to be all over the place and rarely do the parties stick to the subject up for discussion and eventually the argument that started in or about 1 issue has moved to another issue. The argument initially put forth by the theist such as myself would start off by asserting that the Bible's message on a specific and particular subject is 'A'. We then show why we make that assertation only to be refuted with the Strawman of "why do you think you're right and everyone else is wrong" as opposed to scripture that stands opposed to what has been declared by the theist.

The issue made by the provacators seems to be one of a "Mr. or ms. Theist, you are arrogant in thinking that your OneTrueGospel is better than everyone elses while the theist has not even made that declaration. All the theist has done is declare that as it pertains to  subject "A", the Bible say this ________. 
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Hatter23 on September 13, 2011, 03:25:50 PM
I have seen the following quote and others like it quite often.

Quote
So show it.  Show how the bible supports you and only you.

I have then proceeded to jump in and go back and forth without addressing first, something of fundemental importance and that is that I MAKE NO SUCH BROAD CLAIMS!
Arguments based on this line of reasoning tend to be all over the place and rarely do the parties stick to the subject up for discussion and eventually the argument that started in or about 1 issue has moved to another issue. The argument initially put forth by the theist such as myself would start off by asserting that the Bible's message on a specific and particular subject is 'A'. We then show why we make that assertation only to be refuted with the Strawman of "why do you think you're right and everyone else is wrong" as opposed to scripture that stands opposed to what has been declared by the theist.

The issue made by the provacators seems to be one of a "Mr. or ms. Theist, you are arrogant in thinking that your OneTrueGospel is better than everyone elses while the theist has not even made that declaration. All the theist has done is declare that as it pertains to  subject "A", the Bible say this ________.

Well, I think you are talking about me(as one of the perpetrators.) The issue is that of a disucussion of angels dancing on a pin, or the Emperor's new clothes. When the person states "X" is the only interpretation, there is no other way to refute it as showing them is an interpretation is not objective. That their claim is no different, and is not exclusive.

It is just a microcosm of the problem of Gnostic theism in general. Every religion starts with special pleading. Every sect starts with the same.

All I am doing is exposing the fact of their special pleading.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Tweeterfist on September 13, 2011, 03:29:56 PM
Yes there is a way to refute it. You refute it with the same scripture it originally had come from. Wanna play a game? Throw up a denomination and I'll show you why they're most likely wrong using scripture and logic in the Bible, which declares:

Jesus Christ is our ONE and ONLY Saviour and way to Salvation, and only by his grace, bestowed upon him by our faith and repentance towards his sacrifice, are we saved.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Nick on September 13, 2011, 03:31:58 PM
Roman Catholics
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Hatter23 on September 13, 2011, 03:34:47 PM
Yes there is a way to refute it. You refute it with the same scripture it originally had come from. Wanna play a game? Throw up a denomination and I'll show you why they're most likely wrong using scripture and logic in the Bible, which declares:

Jesus Christ is our ONE and ONLY Saviour and way to Salvation, and only by his grace, bestowed upon him by our faith and repentance towards his sacrifice, are we saved.

Ares is the one and Only way to find peace through superior firepower. We need to make a sacrifice of a perfect hectome or suffer.

Special pleading, pure and simple.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Truth OT on September 13, 2011, 03:51:18 PM
Well, I think you are talking about me(as one of the perpetrators.) The issue is that of a disucussion of angels dancing on a pin, or the Emperor's new clothes. When the person states "X" is the only interpretation, there is no other way to refute it as showing them is an interpretation is not objective. That their claim is no different, and is not exclusive.

It is just a microcosm of the problem of Gnostic theism in general. Every religion starts with special pleading. Every sect starts with the same.

All I am doing is exposing the fact of their special pleading.

Why can't the person be refuted by addressing the issue and using the evidence available to either confirm or deny the person's claim?

You mentioned angels, so I will use angels as an example as well. Let's say I was to make the claim that angels do not have wings according to the Bible. You could use the Bible to contradict me or in support of what I claimed, but instead it appears that the preferred method is to employ the tactic I mentioned in the OP of saying, "Why You Are Right and Everyone Else Wrong", and when I attempt to show why I make such claims from the scriptures my evidence (the scriptures) is dismissed and considered inadmisable when in fact the scriptures are the only source of evidence that could even be considered as admisable. 
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: dloubet on September 13, 2011, 04:21:18 PM
Because something that can be interpreted as anything you want means nothing.

Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Truth OT on September 13, 2011, 04:44:55 PM
Because something that can be interpreted as anything you want means nothing.

Who's to say that this something (the vast majority of Bible writings), fits into this charactorization?
The argument can be made that such a position, (that the Bible writings can be interpreted as anything one wants) is flawed.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Azdgari on September 13, 2011, 04:54:12 PM
It is supported empirically by people using the Bible writings to support whatever they want.  Uses that you would consider "misuse" are still a form of use.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Truth OT on September 13, 2011, 05:35:13 PM
It is supported empirically by people using the Bible writings to support whatever they want.  Uses that you would consider "misuse" are still a form of use.

Placing misuse on par with proper use or implying that all use is equates to misuse just as much as it does to proper use is about like saying misquoting someone is the same as quoting them in the proper context.
It is beneficial to point out misquotes and misuses if one values getting the proper or most reasonably likely message intended by the originator communicated properly.   
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: jetson on September 13, 2011, 05:42:17 PM
The Bible is subjective, pure and simple.  There is simply no way that anyone can make any claim otherwise.  The collection of writings that are labeled "The Bible", are about as random and arbitrary as one can possibly get when it comes to what was ultimately included.  Perhaps not to those who made those final decisions back in the day, but most certainly to the masses of people who disagree on everything from whether one can see God and live to tell about it, to whether Jesus actually killed a fig tree.

Truth OT, I know what you are trying to argue, but it fails because you have never been able to defend your interpretation to the satisfaction of everyone interested, and you never will.

And now we have a new member tryng to claim superior knowledge and understandng of a collection of writings that were never intended tp be included in a single book, much less collection.  It's pathetic, and intellectually dishonest to make such a claim.  Wo are e primal authors, and who were they speaking to?  When were they written?  What was the intent of the authors to those specific audiences?  You see, making up ones own answer to those questions without rigorous study and understanding of all of the details needed, is a terribly irresponsible thing to do.

Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: jetson on September 13, 2011, 05:44:55 PM
It is supported empirically by people using the Bible writings to support whatever they want.  Uses that you would consider "misuse" are still a form of use.

Placing misuse on par with proper use or implying that all use is equates to misuse just as much as it does to proper use is about like saying misquoting someone is the same as quoting them in the proper context.
It is beneficial to point out misquotes and misuses if one values getting the proper or most reasonably likely message intended by the originator communicated properly.

Reasonably likely message intended....communicated properly...

How?  Especially for believers...how?
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: 12 Monkeys on September 13, 2011, 05:50:46 PM
Yes there is a way to refute it. You refute it with the same scripture it originally had come from. Wanna play a game? Throw up a denomination and I'll show you why they're most likely wrong using scripture and logic in the Bible, which declares:

Jesus Christ is our ONE and ONLY Saviour and way to Salvation, and only by his grace, bestowed upon him by our faith and repentance towards his sacrifice, are we saved.
the two words that do not belong together LOGIC and BIBLE
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: 12 Monkeys on September 13, 2011, 05:56:05 PM
Well, I think you are talking about me(as one of the perpetrators.) The issue is that of a disucussion of angels dancing on a pin, or the Emperor's new clothes. When the person states "X" is the only interpretation, there is no other way to refute it as showing them is an interpretation is not objective. That their claim is no different, and is not exclusive.

It is just a microcosm of the problem of Gnostic theism in general. Every religion starts with special pleading. Every sect starts with the same.

All I am doing is exposing the fact of their special pleading.

Why can't the person be refuted by addressing the issue and using the evidence available to either confirm or deny the person's claim?

You mentioned angels, so I will use angels as an example as well. Let's say I was to make the claim that angels do not have wings according to the Bible. You could use the Bible to contradict me or in support of what I claimed, but instead it appears that the preferred method is to employ the tactic I mentioned in the OP of saying, "Why You Are Right and Everyone Else Wrong", and when I attempt to show why I make such claims from the scriptures my evidence (the scriptures) is dismissed and considered inadmisable when in fact the scriptures are the only source of evidence that could even be considered as admisable.
I get what you mean here, common mythology,paintings,stories and such has angels with wings while there is nothing in the Bible that can show this...we get it. We also understand that other thumpers Imply stuff based on these common mythologies......we DON'T care.....we hold NOTHING in the Bible to be true.....with exception of place names
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Azdgari on September 13, 2011, 07:55:17 PM
It is supported empirically by people using the Bible writings to support whatever they want.  Uses that you would consider "misuse" are still a form of use.

Placing misuse on par with proper use or implying that all use is equates to misuse just as much as it does to proper use is about like saying misquoting someone is the same as quoting them in the proper context.
It is beneficial to point out misquotes and misuses if one values getting the proper or most reasonably likely message intended by the originator communicated properly.

The critical difference, TOT, is that misquoting is objective whereas misusing is subjective.

If someone says X, and has their quote altered, cut, or otherwise misrepresented to say Y, then that is different from the original quote.  As such, it is objectively a misquote.  This is not a matter of perspective.

If someone intends something to do X, and someone else uses it to do Y, then from the perspective of the first person it is a misuse; from the perspective of the second person, it is not.  The desired manner of usage by person #1 is not automatically better than that of person #2.  Not just because they were the originator, at any rate.  By your stated standard, a nuclear warhead that's been taken apart for nuclear fuel is being misused.  Do you stand by that standard?
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Brakeman on September 13, 2011, 08:27:42 PM
Strictly speaking, if the bible is the word of god as he communicates to mankind, and that god is a supernatural being able to be the god of the bible.. then the bible itself has already disproved his existence. A real god's words would contain perfect communication where 100% of god's meaning would be perfectly understood by 100% of mankind. 

Because it isn't - He isn't.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: jetson on September 13, 2011, 08:41:33 PM
An excellent point Brakeman - and yes, I'm chasing you around the forum and replying to you today.  ;D

Anyway, this has been something that has been brought up in the past by others, and it merits consideration by believers.  I would expect that the standard model of God, being omniscient, omnipotent, and omni-benevolent, would dictate that anything it creates would be perfect.  The Bible, judging by the sheer number of translations and interpretations, is arguably the most imperfect book ever published.

I would expect the Bible to leave each reader in a state of awe, every single verse and paragraph, page and chapter - all the way to the end.  I would expect it to engage the reader in a way that no other book has ever been able to do, and to leave that reader with a sense of awesome, the likes of which cannot be gained in any other way.  And that's only if a book is the preferred method!

If there really was a god as depicted by the standard model (Christian god, of course), there would be no need for a book.  Each human would have the perfect word and understanding of God from birth, maybe even before birth!  Of course, that would ruin the model we have today, where all humans are sinners, and cannot possibly meet the standards of said god. 

Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: 12 Monkeys on September 13, 2011, 10:41:14 PM
That Sad fucker couldn't even keep a snake out of his perfect garden,the flood,Job,hell.......the list of this perfect beings fuck-ups make me look like a genius
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Anfauglir on September 14, 2011, 02:47:59 AM
You mentioned angels, so I will use angels as an example as well. Let's say I was to make the claim that angels do not have wings according to the Bible. You could use the Bible to contradict me or in support of what I claimed, but instead it appears that the preferred method is to employ the tactic I mentioned in the OP of saying, "Why You Are Right and Everyone Else Wrong", and when I attempt to show why I make such claims from the scriptures my evidence (the scriptures) is dismissed and considered inadmisable when in fact the scriptures are the only source of evidence that could even be considered as admisable.

Truth, I have some sympathy for you - not a lot  ;D, but some.  I think you are not quite understanding where we are coming from.

You are right to a point in that you need to use scriptures to make a particular point, and it may well be that your interpretation (using the parts you are referencing) does indeed follow A to B to C.  The "why you are right and everyone else wrong" aspect lies, I think, if we parallel it to critical examination of literature.

A person could look at a particular work of literature, a particular character within it, and come up with a quite valid argument as to what it "means".  Another student could use the same text and come to a different conclusion.  Both are right, insofar as their answers relate to them.  But the point is, it doesn't really matter to the next person.

Unless your purpose here is truly and completely one of just chatting, with zero concern for being taken seriously, then what you are saying DOES matter to us - to you, to me, to all of us.  We are, after all, talking about the things that will lead to eternal salvation or damnation - and its therefore absolutely vital that we find out exactly what is right.

It's because of that, that your "my answer" gambit doesn't work.  You DO have to demonstrate not only that your interpretation COULD be right, but also that your interpretation is the ONLY possible answer there could be.  (And, being honest, when you have admitted that your understandings have changed over the years would make it hard for you to do that).

What I'm saying is: ultimately, you are saying "I believe A, because X, Y and Z".  And we shrug, and say "so what?  THAT guys believes B, because X, Y and Z.  Why should we care what you believe?  Why should we consider YOU are right, and not that guy?". 

Like I said before, if you are truly and honestly not bothered in the slightest in convincing us that your opinion matters, then no - you DON'T have to demonstrate why everyone else is wrong.  But if you aren't prepared to do that, then hopefully you can understand why nobody will give a toss about any claims you may make about what your god apparently wants.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Add Homonym on September 14, 2011, 03:20:35 AM
This guy explains why you have to worship Jesus in exactly the correct way. (at 3:00)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpD1kAR7WK4

He's converted from Mormonism to Born Again Christian. By a subtle re-interpretation of Jesus' message, he now claims that he feels the real Jesus.

This is a similar transition similar to Roman Catholicism, to TrueChristianity.

Although the Catholics use the same religion as normal Christians, their sect is run by a pope, who is really Satan. So, I ask you, what hope have they got for salvation if the pope is Satan? Obviously, something is deeply deeply deeply deeply deeply deeply deeply deeply wrong with their religion.

Personally, I think that Christians should get back to basics, and:
- hate their parents
- give all their money to me, because I asked them
- go and love their enemies; that will keep them out of the way
- do everything in secret, inc. praying, so we don't have to listen to them, or their science theories
- cast out demons all day; that will keep them busy, while their enemy kills them
- after they get divorced, they should stay that way, so there are more women around

Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: velkyn on September 14, 2011, 10:08:41 AM
TOT, have you or have you not declared that your interpretation that there is no heaven promised is the only right one and that everyone else is wrong?

Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Truth OT on September 14, 2011, 12:22:34 PM
The Bible is subjective, pure and simple.  There is simply no way that anyone can make any claim otherwise.  The collection of writings that are labeled "The Bible", are about as random and arbitrary as one can possibly get when it comes to what was ultimately included.  Perhaps not to those who made those final decisions back in the day, but most certainly to the masses of people who disagree on everything from whether one can see God and live to tell about it, to whether Jesus actually killed a fig tree.

Truth OT, I know what you are trying to argue, but it fails because you have never been able to defend your interpretation to the satisfaction of everyone interested, and you never will.

And now we have a new member tryng to claim superior knowledge and understandng of a collection of writings that were never intended tp be included in a single book, much less collection.  It's pathetic, and intellectually dishonest to make such a claim.  Wo are e primal authors, and who were they speaking to?  When were they written?  What was the intent of the authors to those specific audiences?  You see, making up ones own answer to those questions without rigorous study and understanding of all of the details needed, is a terribly irresponsible thing to do.

Your initial sentence is a big exageration. Much of what was written can be charactorized as such, but just as much if not more does not have subjective charactoristics. Much of what was written was done so plainly and leaves no need for the imfamous "decoder ring". So charactorizing the entirety of the writings as subjective is dishonest.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Truth OT on September 14, 2011, 12:38:24 PM
What I'm saying is: ultimately, you are saying "I believe A, because X, Y and Z".  And we shrug, and say "so what?  THAT guys believes B, because X, Y and Z.  Why should we care what you believe?  Why should we consider YOU are right, and not that guy?". 

Like I said before, if you are truly and honestly not bothered in the slightest in convincing us that your opinion matters, then no - you DON'T have to demonstrate why everyone else is wrong.  But if you aren't prepared to do that, then hopefully you can understand why nobody will give a toss about any claims you may make about what your god apparently wants.

Maybe this discourse is not pointless after all!
Using the example you provided above let me just say that my goal is to have folks look at the data (x, y, and z), and after doing so as objectively as possible determine whether A, B, some other conclusion makes the most sense. That is really all I can ask for.
As for why it should matter, the reasons for it mattering will depend on the conclusion reached by looking at the data given. 
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Hatter23 on September 14, 2011, 01:05:32 PM
The Bible is subjective, pure and simple.  There is simply no way that anyone can make any claim otherwise.  The collection of writings that are labeled "The Bible", are about as random and arbitrary as one can possibly get when it comes to what was ultimately included.  Perhaps not to those who made those final decisions back in the day, but most certainly to the masses of people who disagree on everything from whether one can see God and live to tell about it, to whether Jesus actually killed a fig tree.

Truth OT, I know what you are trying to argue, but it fails because you have never been able to defend your interpretation to the satisfaction of everyone interested, and you never will.

And now we have a new member tryng to claim superior knowledge and understandng of a collection of writings that were never intended tp be included in a single book, much less collection.  It's pathetic, and intellectually dishonest to make such a claim.  Wo are e primal authors, and who were they speaking to?  When were they written?  What was the intent of the authors to those specific audiences?  You see, making up ones own answer to those questions without rigorous study and understanding of all of the details needed, is a terribly irresponsible thing to do.

Your initial sentence is a big exageration. Much of what was written can be charactorized as such, but just as much if not more does not have subjective charactoristics. Much of what was written was done so plainly and leaves no need for the imfamous "decoder ring". So charactorizing the entirety of the writings as subjective is dishonest.

Not really, as soon as you allow the terms "metaphorically" and "mistranslation" out of the box....nothing is objective.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Truth OT on September 14, 2011, 01:15:12 PM
Not really, as soon as you allow the terms "metaphorically" and "mistranslation" out of the box....nothing is objective.

Again, only portions of what was written would fall under the catagory of being metaphorical. Much is literal, what of those parts?
As far as translation or mistranslation is involved, the instances where the idea of mistranslating is invoked involves only small fractions of the whole of scripture.
So again, using "broad brush" charactorizations that fit only in certain specific circumstances and making those charactorizations applicable to the entire work is dishonest.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Hatter23 on September 14, 2011, 01:33:16 PM
Not really, as soon as you allow the terms "metaphorically" and "mistranslation" out of the box....nothing is objective.

Again, only portions of what was written would fall under the catagory of being metaphorical. Much is literal, what of those parts?
As far as translation or mistranslation is involved, the instances where the idea of mistranslating is invoked involves only small fractions of the whole of scripture.
So again, using "broad brush" charactorizations that fit only in certain specific circumstances and making those charactorizations applicable to the entire work is dishonest.

You are not getting it. When any...any significant portion of a work can be said to be mistranslated or metaphorical, then what parts are metaphorical or mistranslated or which ones are literal are now up for debate. This means there is no objective standard. It is that basic. Take Noah's Ark story...some sects argue literal, so sect argue figurative. The Entire book of Genesis is the same. There are even some estoteric branches of Catholicism the argue the gospels themselves are metaphorical.

This isn't a dishonest charcterization, these are real and actual disagreement going on as we speak. If there was an objective standard, a test, this wouldn't be the case.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Benny on September 14, 2011, 02:03:55 PM
That Sad fucker couldn't even keep a snake out of his perfect garden,the flood,Job,hell.......the list of this perfect beings fuck-ups make me look like a genius
Did TOT respond to this yet?  If not, I'd LOVE to see him try.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: bertatberts on September 14, 2011, 03:02:32 PM
Much is literal, what of those parts?
Can you explain, where any parts of the bible are literal please, thank you.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Truth OT on September 14, 2011, 03:23:29 PM
Much is literal, what of those parts?
Can you explain, where any parts of the bible are literal please, thank you.

Why would something literal need to be explaned? What is it you seek from me as proof of my declaration that only parts of the writings are figurative? Should I quote an entire narrative? Should I be a smart ass and cut and paste the text that says Jesus wept? There are numerous texts that speak literally and there are other texts that use symbolism, I fail to see how that idea can be argued against.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Alzael on September 14, 2011, 03:57:50 PM

Again, only portions of what was written would fall under the catagory of being metaphorical. Much is literal, what of those parts?

But how do you know that they are metaphorical? In a world where there is an all-powerful being how do you know which parts were actually metaphors?

You keep missing the relevant question TOT. Which is "How do you know?"

When we had the discussion about hell, and I pointed out all of the ways in which the interpretation from the site you gave could easily be wrong, all you could do was assert that I was wrong. However you could not give any valid justification for it. The same occurred when we went over what "Son of God" really meant. You could not justify your interpretation with anything other than what you thought it meant. I pointed out valid ways in which it could have meant a divine Jesus. So how do you know that yours is right?

Reading the text does not make you right, ToT. Evidence makes you right, which is what you have none of. All you have are ancient writings that you think say something meaningful.


Why would something literal need to be explaned?

Literal does not mean easily understood. More to the point, you have yet to address how you determine what is meant literally and what is meant figuratively. And, more to the point, how that differentiates you from everyone else who claims different.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: The Wannabe on September 14, 2011, 04:01:33 PM

Why would something literal need to be explaned? What is it you seek from me as proof of my declaration that only parts of the writings are figurative? Should I quote an entire narrative? Should I be a smart ass and cut and paste the text that says Jesus wept? There are numerous texts that speak literally and there are other texts that use symbolism, I fail to see how that idea can be argued against.

So, then how should we delineate between text that speak literally and text that use symbolism.  My question to you TOT, is should we take the "Jonah and the Fish" text literally?  What about Genesis 1-3?  Where's the line here?
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: fungusdrool on September 14, 2011, 04:10:23 PM
Not that I have much cred on this forum, TOT, but I think you have something there. 
A model is a model.  If you say: "This version of this bible says X."  That can be a self-consistent statement.

The only issue comes in when there is an implied extrapolation to reality.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: jetson on September 14, 2011, 05:38:55 PM
TOT,

I'm willing to accept that I'm wrong on my statement, and it does seem very broad-brushed.  However, what have you done to bring any evidence that I am wrong?  What makes you make your statement?  Is it the fact that you don't think humans would just make it all up?  That may be true in the case of some of the discovered writings.  But which ones?  And as others have asked, how do you know?

Unless you have a method for making the distinction, I can easily stand behind my claim.  I would also change my mind if such a method were peer reviewed and generally accepted.  Of you read authors like Bart Ehrman, you will find that critical historical analysis of texts is a very difficult science.  And given the bizarre stories throughout the Bible, it gets even more difficult to truly understand the origins of many of the stories.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Benny on September 14, 2011, 05:40:12 PM
Much is literal, what of those parts?
Can you explain, where any parts of the bible are literal please, thank you.

Why would something literal need to be explaned? What is it you seek from me as proof of my declaration that only parts of the writings are figurative? Should I quote an entire narrative? Should I be a smart ass and cut and paste the text that says Jesus wept? There are numerous texts that speak literally and there are other texts that use symbolism, I fail to see how that idea can be argued against.

The million dollar question is, TOT, how do we know what parts of the bible are literal and what parts are symbolic?  Am I missing something?
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Truth OT on September 15, 2011, 10:04:29 AM

Why would something literal need to be explaned? What is it you seek from me as proof of my declaration that only parts of the writings are figurative? Should I quote an entire narrative? Should I be a smart ass and cut and paste the text that says Jesus wept? There are numerous texts that speak literally and there are other texts that use symbolism, I fail to see how that idea can be argued against.

So, then how should we delineate between text that speak literally and text that use symbolism.  My question to you TOT, is should we take the "Jonah and the Fish" text literally?  What about Genesis 1-3?  Where's the line here?

That is a tough question in a sense. Some would say that everything is to be taken literally unless there is a textual device or contextual application that would indicate otherwise.
A problem I recognize is that those in the inerrancy camp will wish to deliteralize that which appears unbelievable in order to hold up the idea of complete, total, and unaltered divine inspiration of all canonized texts.
As far as Genesis' creation account(s) go, it seems to be written as a narrative and within the text itself, there is nothing included that would appear to make it allegorical. Thus it appears to be a literal narrative recant about the creation of the world. Does the text being written literally automaticlly make it true? Nope.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Hatter23 on September 15, 2011, 10:12:40 AM

Why would something literal need to be explaned? What is it you seek from me as proof of my declaration that only parts of the writings are figurative? Should I quote an entire narrative? Should I be a smart ass and cut and paste the text that says Jesus wept? There are numerous texts that speak literally and there are other texts that use symbolism, I fail to see how that idea can be argued against.

So, then how should we delineate between text that speak literally and text that use symbolism.  My question to you TOT, is should we take the "Jonah and the Fish" text literally?  What about Genesis 1-3?  Where's the line here?

That is a tough question in a sense. Some would say that everything is to be taken literally unless there is a textual device or contextual application that would indicate otherwise.
A problem I recognize is that those in the inerrancy camp will wish to deliteralize that which appears unbelievable in order to hold up the idea of complete, total, and unaltered divine inspiration of all canonized texts.
As far as Genesis' creation account(s) go, it seems to be written as a narrative and within the text itself, there is nothing included that would appear to make it allegorical. Thus it appears to be a literal narrative recant about the creation of the world. Does the text being written literally automaticlly make it true? Nope.

Which brings us right back to this is your subjective standard. There is no objective standard.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: velkyn on September 15, 2011, 11:15:10 AM
As far as Genesis' creation account(s) go, it seems to be written as a narrative and within the text itself, there is nothing included that would appear to make it allegorical. Thus it appears to be a literal narrative recant about the creation of the world. Does the text being written literally automaticlly make it true? Nope.

the same could be said for the story of Jesus.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Alzael on September 15, 2011, 12:24:08 PM

The problem that I see here ToT, is that you want to say that you are analyzing the text of the bible, but you have no idea how such a thing is actually done. There is no objective meaning in a literary text, it simply does not exist. You are trying to take an endeavor that is entirely subjective by it's very nature and futilely trying to attach objectivity to it. It does not work that way.

This is why you keep getting the same question over and over again from everyone here. How do you know? How is your interpretation any different from every other christian who says differently. Also notice how you always fail to answer that question. That should tell you a lot about the things that you are trying to say. If you could honestly differentiate between the two, I imagine you would have answered it by now. Honestly stop and think about why you have to keep avoiding the issue.

You are the one who keeps making us come back to this point, ToT. It is ground that has been covered frequently over the course of your stay here and we're retreading on it constantly because you continually shy away from giving a real response. If you can't actually produce an answer man-up and admit it, then do the adult thing and revise your opinions on the subject.

Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Truth OT on September 15, 2011, 12:43:05 PM

The problem that I see here ToT, is that you want to say that you are analyzing the text of the bible, but you have no idea how such a thing is actually done. There is no objective meaning in a literary text, it simply does not exist. You are trying to take an endeavor that is entirely subjective by it's very nature and futilely trying to attach objectivity to it. It does not work that way.

So basically my analytical techniques demonstrate that I do not know how to properly analyze literary texts. I can man up and concede that that is in fact possible.

When you say "There is no objective meaning in a literary text, it simply does not exist," are you saying no specific information is actually being given, that no underlying message is necessarily being present, or that we should not read anything into (give greater meaning to) the info in the narrative in order to glean a "deeper meaning?"?
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Truth OT on September 15, 2011, 12:43:58 PM
As far as Genesis' creation account(s) go, it seems to be written as a narrative and within the text itself, there is nothing included that would appear to make it allegorical. Thus it appears to be a literal narrative recant about the creation of the world. Does the text being written literally automaticlly make it true? Nope.

the same could be said for the story of Jesus.

I won't argue with that...................
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Dante on September 15, 2011, 02:25:09 PM
When you say "There is no objective meaning in a literary text, it simply does not exist," are you saying no specific information is actually being given, that no underlying message is necessarily being present, or that we should not read anything into (give greater meaning to) the info in the narrative in order to glean a "deeper meaning?"?

Bold mine.

That's the SUBJECTIVE part. Someone has to GIVE. Were it objective, one wouldn't have to GIVE anything.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Truth OT on September 15, 2011, 02:33:03 PM
When you say "There is no objective meaning in a literary text, it simply does not exist," are you saying no specific information is actually being given, that no underlying message is necessarily being present, or that we should not read anything into (give greater meaning to) the info in the narrative in order to glean a "deeper meaning?"?

Bold mine.

That's the SUBJECTIVE part. Someone has to GIVE. Were it objective, one wouldn't have to GIVE anything.

I would agree with you 100% here. The point of contention I believe many have though is related to whether or not the entirety of the texts requires that meaning be given to it. Obviously many parts do, however that does not appear to be the case for many other parts. In other words it is my argument that much of the Bible does NOT require the use of a magic "decoder ring", while other seem to imply that all of the writings require one and since there's no way to objectively prove which decoder is best, then there's no way any of it can be properly understood.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Hatter23 on September 15, 2011, 02:40:42 PM
When you say "There is no objective meaning in a literary text, it simply does not exist," are you saying no specific information is actually being given, that no underlying message is necessarily being present, or that we should not read anything into (give greater meaning to) the info in the narrative in order to glean a "deeper meaning?"?

Bold mine.

That's the SUBJECTIVE part. Someone has to GIVE. Were it objective, one wouldn't have to GIVE anything.

I would agree with you 100% here. The point of contention I believe many have though is related to whether or not the entirety of the texts requires that meaning be given to it. Obviously many parts do, however that does not appear to be the case for many other parts. In other words it is my argument that much of the Bible does NOT require the use of a magic "decoder ring", while other seem to imply that all of the writings require one and since there's no way to objectively prove which decoder is best, then there's no way any of it  can be properly understood.

change of bold mine.

Properly??? Still subjective.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Benny on September 15, 2011, 03:00:18 PM
When you say "There is no objective meaning in a literary text, it simply does not exist," are you saying no specific information is actually being given, that no underlying message is necessarily being present, or that we should not read anything into (give greater meaning to) the info in the narrative in order to glean a "deeper meaning?"?

Bold mine.

That's the SUBJECTIVE part. Someone has to GIVE. Were it objective, one wouldn't have to GIVE anything.

I would agree with you 100% here. The point of contention I believe many have though is related to whether or not the entirety of the texts requires that meaning be given to it. Obviously many parts do, however that does not appear to be the case for many other parts. In other words it is my argument that much of the Bible does NOT require the use of a magic "decoder ring", while other seem to imply that all of the writings require one and since there's no way to objectively prove which decoder is best, then there's no way any of it  can be properly understood.

change of bold mine.

Properly??? Still subjective.
What is or isn't subjective isn't even the main problem here, although it is a valid point.  Let me re-quote part of this conversation...

In other words it is my argument that much of the Bible does NOT require the use of a magic "decoder ring", while other seem to imply that all of the writings require one and since there's no way to objectively prove which decoder is best, then there's no way any of it can be properly understood.
The bold words there.  Read them again.  If it can't be understood, then why put a major world religion on the book?  In essence, you have just made Christianity less plausible than Scientology.  And, if the Bible needs no magic decoder ring, as you say, then it should be clear and easy to understand, which, according to the bold words, is not true.  You have made a fool of your religion and your deity.  May your moronic and all-hating God have mercy on your soul.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Alzael on September 15, 2011, 03:08:15 PM
I notice that you didn't follow my advice and actually take some time to think.


So basically my analytical techniques demonstrate that I do not know how to properly analyze literary texts. I can man up and concede that that is in fact possible.

No, your analytical techniques are not analytical techniques at all. You don't know how to analyze a text, it's that simple.

And you're still avoiding the issue that keeps coming up. You were supposed to either respond to the question for once and justify your stance, or man up and admit that you can't and that what everyone is saying is true.

Once again, you've simply tried to shift the subject. It's a very simple thing, ToT. Can you either answer what everyone has been asking and actually give any credence to your position, or can you admit that you are wrong? Because this is about the fourth time we've all gone down this road with you, and I don't know about the others but I'm finding it very tiresome that you keep backing out when you start it.

When you say "There is no objective meaning in a literary text, it simply does not exist," are you saying no specific information is actually being given, that no underlying message is necessarily being present, or that we should not read anything into (give greater meaning to) the info in the narrative in order to glean a "deeper meaning?"?

That there is no such thing as a right or wrong interpretation for a text. Everyone gets their own meaning from what they read. When you try to claim that others are misusing the bible, you are wrong because they are just as right as you are.

Again, you and I went over this previously (before you backed out yet again). You are simply cowering away from the subject. The question still remains, asked by just about everyone by this point.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: velkyn on September 15, 2011, 03:21:24 PM
I would agree with you 100% here. The point of contention I believe many have though is related to whether or not the entirety of the texts requires that meaning be given to it. Obviously many parts do, however that does not appear to be the case for many other parts. In other words it is my argument that much of the Bible does NOT require the use of a magic "decoder ring", while other seem to imply that all of the writings require one and since there's no way to objectively prove which decoder is best, then there's no way any of it can be properly understood.

in reference to my saying that the "passion" story could be literally told and untrue, it could also be a story told to be allegory and but in a literal way.  I was reminded on this site about the book Jonathan Livingston Seagull, which I see as a Christ allegory. It tells a story about seagulls.  Seagulls exist, seaguls attack each other, so why not think that there is a "messiah" of seagulls?  We also have myths about other sacrificing gods, Prometheus so humans could have fire, etc.  Is there a reason to accept that the story of Jesus is anything more than an allegory told using a story?  It certainly seems like fact but so do the others and they are fantastical as much as the story of JC. 

The problem is, TOT, is that you have said that the bible can be "properly" understood.  Can it or can't it?
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Truth OT on September 15, 2011, 03:42:59 PM
The problem is, TOT, is that you have said that the bible can be "properly" understood.  Can it or can't it?

Such a claim must be retracted as making that claim is saying way more than can be backed up objectively. The writings can only be understood to a point and beyond that point, one is then forced to hypothesize, make educated guesses, and fill in holes. See, I can admit when I was wrong. :)
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Alzael on September 15, 2011, 04:03:12 PM
The problem is, TOT, is that you have said that the bible can be "properly" understood.  Can it or can't it?

Such a claim must be retracted as making that claim is saying way more than can be backed up objectively. The writings can only be understood to a point and beyond that point, one is then forced to hypothesize, make educated guesses, and fill in holes. See, I can admit when I was wrong. :)

Then you agree that everything that you have said and think about Scripture is subjective? Otherwise you have admitted nothing and you're still just dancing around the issue that everyone is raising like a typical Christian coward.

Which is it?
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Truth OT on September 15, 2011, 04:20:12 PM
That there is no such thing as a right or wrong interpretation for a text. Everyone gets their own meaning from what they read. When you try to claim that others are misusing the bible, you are wrong because they are just as right as you are.

Again, you and I went over this previously (before you backed out yet again). You are simply cowering away from the subject. The question still remains, asked by just about everyone by this point.

Again I ask you; Why is it that you assert, by what you have written, that all of the texts require interpretation? One reads a passage that says:
"Jesus went into the city of Jerusalem on the day before the feast of unleavened bread and there he began proclaiming the nearness of the Kingdom of God."
How does such a passage require interpretation?
Is it not rather plain in the message that it is communicating?
Would not a person be able to call BS on a person that says they believe the Bible, but teaches that Jesus never went to Jerusalem to proclaim the nearness of the kingdom?

Quotation of, and insisting that one must not misquote scripture does not require interpretation! Interpretation does not even come into play until ones begins the process of attempting to clarify unclear messages or attempting to make application of the messages communicated to an audience that one is not a part of relevant to one's self and one's contemporaries.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Alzael on September 15, 2011, 04:35:40 PM
That there is no such thing as a right or wrong interpretation for a text. Everyone gets their own meaning from what they read. When you try to claim that others are misusing the bible, you are wrong because they are just as right as you are.

Again, you and I went over this previously (before you backed out yet again). You are simply cowering away from the subject. The question still remains, asked by just about everyone by this point.

Again I ask you; Why is it that you assert, by what you have written, that all of the texts require interpretation? One reads a passage that says:
"Jesus went into the city of Jerusalem on the day before the feast of unleavened bread and there he began proclaiming the nearness of the Kingdom of God."
How does such a passage require interpretation?
Is it not rather plain in the message that it is communicating?
Would not a person be able to call BS on a person that says they believe the Bible, but teaches that Jesus never went to Jerusalem to proclaim the nearness of the kingdom?

Quotation of, and insisting that one must not misquote scripture does not require interpretation! Interpretation does not even come into play until ones begins the process of attempting to clarify unclear messages or attempting to make application of the messages communicated to an audience that one is not a part of relevant to one's self and one's contemporaries.

Stop trying to evade and stonewall and address the main question that everyone has asked repeatedly.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Omen on September 15, 2011, 05:01:49 PM
such as myself would start off by asserting that the Bible's message on a specific and particular subject is 'A'.

You would have to actually logically explain how you came to this conclusion in a way that follows.

Quote
refuted with the Strawman of "why do you think you're right and everyone else is wrong"

I don't think you know what a strawman is and intellectually speaking you are totally disconnected from your original claim.  If your original claim cannot be argued for using logic and reason, plus your original claim is delivered upon nothing but your own credulous arbitrary pleading then you effectively have no argument worth considering.  The arrogant and condescending part is that you make no effort to actually convey an argument for your belief, while at the same time pretending as if you either have or you don't have too.

Quote
as opposed to scripture that stands opposed to what has been declared by the theist.

This is irrelevant.  Person A claims the text means X, Person B claims the text means Y, neither person A or B explain why they would ever come to this conclusion and offer nothing more than arguments from authority.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Omen on September 15, 2011, 05:06:40 PM
All I am doing is exposing the fact of their special pleading.

Why can't the person be refuted by addressing the issue and using the evidence available to either confirm or deny the person's claim?

Since the original claim qualifies itself through pleading, any contradiction can be equally pleaded away with the repetition of the same fallacy.  IE, What you make up on a whim, you can change on a whim, or rationalize it to however you feel.. rather than anything that reasonably or logically follows into a conclusion.

That's the dishonest part about religious apologetic and precisely the reason that apologia is so devoid of any intellectual credibility.

Quote
Let's say I was to make the claim that angels do not have wings according to the Bible. You could use the Bible to contradict me or in support of what I claimed, but instead it appears that the preferred method is to employ the tactic I mentioned in the OP of saying, "Why You Are Right and Everyone Else Wrong",

Your claims are rarely this straight forward, they are instead grossly more ambiguous, arbitrarily suspending even comprehension to insert bizarre rationalizations into text that often never actually say what it literally says.  Notice that you're not actually citing examples of ACTUAL discussions, all your analogies are to subject material that has never occurred.  If your subject material were so clear and coherent, then why not use some of that as an example instead?

I conclude that you don't use it precisely because you know how vague it actually is.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Omen on September 15, 2011, 05:10:26 PM
Because something that can be interpreted as anything you want means nothing.

Who's to say that this something (the vast majority of Bible writings), fits into this charactorization?

The fact that is contradictory, to both itself and reality.

However, I don't need to make this argument to begin with, I only need to admit that I have no idea what it means and then ask you to explain yourself using logic and reason.

The issue here OT is that you can't and in place of using logic/reason, you just randomly pick few things dependent entirely upon your own credulity then claim it as authoritative.  It is not our fault that as an exercise theology is so far removed from any intellectual discourse.  You are effectively lashing out at us for not believing what is inherently subjective and dependent upon vast amounts of exaggeration.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Omen on September 15, 2011, 05:18:34 PM
What makes it really patently stupid is that we can literally pick up anything we wish and practice the same specious fallacies.  We could construct on a whim any meaning drawn at random from any text, without explanation and dependent upon nothing more than our arbitrary pleading that that is the intention.  We could then dismiss contradictions and explain them way, by making up new rationalizations or inserting new qualifications ( again per special pleading ), to the point where you could not find a contradiction that we would agree too.  Having presupposed it as true to begin with, then any rationalization we make is an inherent tautology.  We've already assumed it to be true, a contradiction can't make it false since we've assumed it as absolutely true, so the contradiction must be a different explanation rather then the disproof of the claim.

This is the standard M.O. of EVERY single religion on the planet.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Alzael on September 15, 2011, 08:15:56 PM
Again I ask you; Why is it that you assert, by what you have written, that all of the texts require interpretation?

Everytime you read something you are interpreting what is being written. What is being questioned is why you claim that people who don't come to the same interpretations as you are misusing or misunderstanding the text.

We went over this before in our little "Son of God" conversation. The one which you once again backed out of when questioned as to how you knew. There are many different ways in which that line could be interpreted. You however said that it was not a claim to Jesus' divinity. I pointed out how it could easily be interpreted like that and asked you to demonstrate how you could actually show me wrong while also differentiating your argument from what could be said by anyone else with any other interpretation. You couldn't, or rather you failed to even put in an effort.

Quotation of, and insisting that one must not misquote scripture does not require interpretation!

 This is not what you have done, however. You have said repeatedly that others are using wrong interpretations. This is what you are being questioned on. Just as you were before in the talk we had about hell, just like when we talked about Jesus and you made your claims. You are being questioned on your interpretations, and you repeatedly fail to even have the decency to answer when asked. Instead you simply re-ask questions already dealt with and dodge and evade and top if off with Strawmens like what this implies.

It's getting very sad.

Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: pingnak on September 15, 2011, 08:36:26 PM
There are thousands of religions and sects of religions.

For every belief, there are thousands of other beliefs that state it, or some subset of it, is wrong.

Since none of these statements or beliefs can be objectively measured, the signal to noise ratio is effectively zero.

All I see is thousands of belief systems pointing at each other saying "they're all wrong."

So I'll agree with all of them.  They're all wrong.

Or I'll disagree with all of them.  They're all wrong.

Either way, they're all wrong.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Truth OT on September 16, 2011, 09:24:09 AM
Quotation of, and insisting that one must not misquote scripture does not require interpretation!

 This is not what you have done, however. You have said repeatedly that others are using wrong interpretations. This is what you are being questioned on. Just as you were before in the talk we had about hell, just like when we talked about Jesus and you made your claims. You are being questioned on your interpretations, and you repeatedly fail to even have the decency to answer when asked. Instead you simply re-ask questions already dealt with and dodge and evade and top if off with Strawmens like what this implies.

It's getting very sad.

I stand accused and find myself having to plead guilty. I have often looked at the beliefs and religious practices out there and asserted that many if not most have no biblical foundation to stand on. When I am asked what SHOULD be practiced, all I am able to do is give my OPINION based on my understanding.
As far as what religious practices should be employed, there exists no clear or definitive instruction on the matter. As far as hell and the trinity concepts are concerned, all that can be done is an analysis of the 'evidence' provided to help determine if the conclusion drawn makes sense.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: velkyn on September 16, 2011, 10:48:35 AM
The problem is, TOT, is that you have said that the bible can be "properly" understood.  Can it or can't it?

Such a claim must be retracted as making that claim is saying way more than can be backed up objectively. The writings can only be understood to a point and beyond that point, one is then forced to hypothesize, make educated guesses, and fill in holes. See, I can admit when I was wrong. :)

Good for you.  However, I have some reason to doubt you are being sincere when reading your responses to others, still attempting to use your magic decoder ring to decide what is literal and what is metaphor.  Hopefully I am mistaken. 
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: 12 Monkeys on September 16, 2011, 06:00:21 PM
ToT are you starting to confuse what you actually believe? or are you just playing around?  You seriously are pointing out what is wrong in your religion,all the while trying to explain to us that it is true.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Alzael on September 16, 2011, 08:31:48 PM
Quotation of, and insisting that one must not misquote scripture does not require interpretation!

 This is not what you have done, however. You have said repeatedly that others are using wrong interpretations. This is what you are being questioned on. Just as you were before in the talk we had about hell, just like when we talked about Jesus and you made your claims. You are being questioned on your interpretations, and you repeatedly fail to even have the decency to answer when asked. Instead you simply re-ask questions already dealt with and dodge and evade and top if off with Strawmens like what this implies.

It's getting very sad.

I stand accused and find myself having to plead guilty. I have often looked at the beliefs and religious practices out there and asserted that many if not most have no biblical foundation to stand on. When I am asked what SHOULD be practiced, all I am able to do is give my OPINION based on my understanding.
As far as what religious practices should be employed, there exists no clear or definitive instruction on the matter. As far as hell and the trinity concepts are concerned, all that can be done is an analysis of the 'evidence' provided to help determine if the conclusion drawn makes sense.

Now here is what I would like you to do. Take a moment and really think about everything we had to go through to get to this point. Why did we have to go through all of this before you would admit something  so obvious?

Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: kcrady on September 17, 2011, 07:44:12 AM
Again I ask you; Why is it that you assert, by what you have written, that all of the texts require interpretation? One reads a passage that says:
"Jesus went into the city of Jerusalem on the day before the feast of unleavened bread and there he began proclaiming the nearness of the Kingdom of God."
How does such a passage require interpretation?
Is it not rather plain in the message that it is communicating?
Would not a person be able to call BS on a person that says they believe the Bible, but teaches that Jesus never went to Jerusalem to proclaim the nearness of the kingdom?

For the sake of discussion, I will take on the role of a neo-Gnostic Christian with beliefs similar to Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy (http://www.scribd.com/doc/13074164/Timothy-Freke-Peter-Gandy-The-Jesus-Mysteries-Was-the-Original-Jesus-a-Pagan-God).  Here goes:

There is considerable evidence (http://www.jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/jesuspuzzle.html) that the earliest Christians believed that Christ was a purely celestial Being/Principle whose salvific acts took place in a higher spiritual realm intermediate between the material world the perfect Heavenly realm.  This is most obvious in Paul's epistles, where he speaks of a divine Christ revealed in highly allegorical interpretations of Hebrew Scriptures and mystical experiences rather than appealing to alleged historical facts about a recent man who lived in Judea. 

The Gospels were originally written as allegories which couched spiritual ideas and channeled teachings of Jesus (which were originally promulgated among Christians apart from any narrative context, as in the Gospel of Thomas) in memorable narrative form.  Though "orthodox" Christianity (that which emerged from the councils of the proto-Catholic Church held under the auspices of late Roman Emperors hammering out a new State religion) teaches that the central premise of "Christianity" is to believe without question certain doctrines promulgated by the Church or face temporal and eternal punishments (e.g. burning at the stake, followed by Hell), the Gospel writers demonstrate a radically different attitude in their handling of "facts."  While the later Synoptic Gospels borrowed heavily from Mark, their authors thought nothing of changing details, moving pericopes around to serve their own literary ends, inserting the same sayings of Jesus into different narrative contexts, adding or removing accounts, and so on.  Later copyists also did not hesitate to add new material, such as the "long ending" of Mark, or the story of the woman caught in adultery, which was added to gJohn in later manuscripts.  This extremely loose attitude toward the material of their narratives is incompatible with the notion that eternal salvation depends heavily on "getting the facts right."

In addition, many of the narrative accounts are clearly pastiches of stories from the Hebrew Scriptures.  For example, Herod's "massacre of the innocents" is a re-creation of the Pharaoh's attempt to kill the promised deliverer Moses in the Book of Exodus, making Jesus the New Moses, mediator of a New Covenant.  He is then taken into Egypt by a Joseph (as the Hebrews were in the Book of Genesis), and his return to Judea is directly linked to the Exodus.  gMatthew cites a passage from Hosea ("Out of Egypt I have called my son") as applicable to Jesus, when its original context is a reference to the Jewish people as a whole.  In this way, Jesus is identified with the Jewish people.  The crucifixion narratives are likewise crafted to fit with Psalm 22, which Jesus quotes from the Cross ("My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

Thus, the Gospels are not historical/biographical accounts or even fake historical/biographical accounts.  The passage you cited above is not a simple, self-evident statement about a man entering a city at a particular point in human history.  It may be quite plausibly interpreted in the same way as a statement like "Darth Vader was Luke Skywalker's father" or "Aslan was slain by the White Witch on the Stone Table"--a narrative "fact," but not a statement of ordinary fact.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Truth OT on September 17, 2011, 09:01:53 AM
ToT are you starting to confuse what you actually believe? or are you just playing around?  You seriously are pointing out what is wrong in your religion,all the while trying to explain to us that it is true.

I wouldn't say I am confusing what I believe although I will say I have changed a big part of what it is I still do believe. Me pointing out what I see as wrong with religion is not a new thing by any means, I've been doing that for years. What has changed is my acceptance that the books of the Bible are in fact indisputably inspired words from God. I have accepted the idea that what was written is very likely NOT inerrant, that is the biggest metamorphasis I have made.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: jetson on September 17, 2011, 09:35:59 AM
ToT - if you have not done so already, please, please pick up one of Bart Ehrmans books!  It is an angle on scripture rarely heard among believers.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Truth OT on September 17, 2011, 09:43:41 AM
There is considerable evidence (http://www.jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/jesuspuzzle.html) that the earliest Christians believed that Christ was a purely celestial Being/Principle whose salvific acts took place in a higher spiritual realm intermediate between the material world the perfect Heavenly realm.  This is most obvious in Paul's epistles, where he speaks of a divine Christ revealed in highly allegorical interpretations of Hebrew Scriptures and mystical experiences rather than appealing to alleged historical facts about a recent man who lived in Judea. 

Is that above allegation about the views of early christians like Paul's, a mid 1st century Jew alledged to have written much of the New Testament merited based on what is contained in those writings? Let's look to what Paul wrote to see how much support this claim actually has.

Romans 1
 Paul, a slave of Jesus the Anointed One, who is called an Apostle, and who was set aside for the good news of God, which He promised through His Prophets in the Holy Scriptures that tell about His Son, who came in the flesh from the seed of David, and who proved to be God's Son in a powerful way, when he (by the Holy Breath [of God]) was resurrected from the dead. Yes, Jesus the Anointed One, our Lord,
Romans 5:6
For a fact; The Anointed One came right on time and died for ungodly men back when we were still weak!
1 Cor 2:1-2
1 So, when I came to you brothers, I didn't bring you the mysteries of God with high-sounding words of wisdom. 2 For, I decided not to teach you about anything other than Jesus the Anointed, and about how he was hung on a pole.
1 Cor 11
23 I received this from the Lord and I've also shared it with you… that the Lord Jesus (on the very night that he was going to be handed over) took a loaf, 24 and after giving thanks, broke it and said, 'This is my body [which is given] for you. Keep on doing this in memory of me.' 25 And after supper, he did the same thing with the cup, saying, 'This cup is the new Sacred Agreement of my blood. Keep on doing this… and as often as you drink it, think of me.'
Philipians 2:
5 Keep this attitude in you that the Anointed Jesus had. 6 For, although he once existed in the same form as God, he didn’t consider trying to make himself equal to God. 7 Rather, he emptied himself into the shape of a slave and became a man. 8 And when he found himself shaped as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death… yes, death on a pole. 9 This is why God promoted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above all others; 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee in heaven, on earth, and under the ground should bend, 11 and every tongue should confess that Jesus the Anointed One is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
In addition, here are words written by Luke, a companion of Paul, from Acts 3 about what the earliest followers of Jesus taught and believed:
12 So when Peter saw this, he said, 'Men of IsraEl; Why are you surprised at this, and why are you staring at us as though we made him walk by our own power or devotion? 13 Why, the God of AbraHam, IsaAc, and Jacob – the God of our ancestors – has glorified His servant Jesus, whom you betrayed and disowned before the face of Pilate, after he had decided to release him. 14 Yes, you disowned that holy and righteous man, and you asked him to release a man who was a murderer! 15 Yes, you killed the Prince of Life! However, God thereafter raised him from the dead, which we all witnessed!

Do these writings really illustrate a belief that the "earliest Christians believed that Christ was a purely celestial Being/Principle whose salvific acts took place in a higher spiritual realm intermediate between the material world the perfect Heavenly realm?" You be the judge.

............the notion that eternal salvation depends heavily on "getting the facts right."

That notion does in fact seem to be backed most strongly by institutional (church) propaganda. No argument there.

In addition, many of the narrative accounts are clearly pastiches of stories from the Hebrew Scriptures.  For example, Herod's "massacre of the innocents" is a re-creation of the Pharaoh's attempt to kill the promised deliverer Moses in the Book of Exodus, making Jesus the New Moses, mediator of a New Covenant.  He is then taken into Egypt by a Joseph (as the Hebrews were in the Book of Genesis), and his return to Judea is directly linked to the Exodus.  gMatthew cites a passage from Hosea ("Out of Egypt I have called my son") as applicable to Jesus, when its original context is a reference to the Jewish people as a whole.  In this way, Jesus is identified with the Jewish people.  The crucifixion narratives are likewise crafted to fit with Psalm 22, which Jesus quotes from the Cross ("My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

Thus, the Gospels are not historical/biographical accounts or even fake historical/biographical accounts.  The passage you cited above is not a simple, self-evident statement about a man entering a city at a particular point in human history.  It may be quite plausibly interpreted in the same way as a statement like "Darth Vader was Luke Skywalker's father" or "Aslan was slain by the White Witch on the Stone Table"--a narrative "fact," but not a statement of ordinary fact.

Such conclusions are not out of the realm of possibility, but have very little textual support. Those who promote such idea must go through great lengths to connect dots that may in fact be totally unrelated to each other. If the Glenn Becks of the world can connect everything to George Soros I guess these guys can make their connections as well :).
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: bertatberts on September 17, 2011, 03:05:58 PM
Much is literal, what of those parts?
Can you explain, where any parts of the bible are literal please, thank you.

Why would something literal need to be explaned?
Because you're declaring it as fact, You're say it isn't exaggerated; You're saying it is actual/factual/true. It is your burden to prove that.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Alzael on September 18, 2011, 05:22:05 PM
I'm still awaiting your response, ToT.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Anfauglir on September 19, 2011, 12:32:00 AM
As far as what religious practices should be employed, there exists no clear or definitive instruction on the matter. As far as hell and the trinity concepts are concerned, all that can be done is an analysis of the 'evidence' provided to help determine if the conclusion drawn makes sense.

Except....doesn't the difference between eternal paradise and salvation, and eternal damnation and torture, rely on getting things exactly right?

And yet we have a god - that some would allege loves us and wants the best for us and wants a relationship with us - that has provided unclear and wolly instructions as to what we need to do to be saved. 

So what can we conclude?  Possibly, that there IS no god at all.  But certainly, that any beliver who asserts the loving, caring, relationship-and-salvation-desiring god, is sadly mistaken: the alleged god is in no way borne out by the facts.  A god who mandates eternal destiny on specific requirement, but then ensures the requirements are confused and unclear is - at best - a disinterested trickster.  At worse, it is a heartless monster, giggling as the ants he created scurry hither and yon, scrabbling for clues in the dust, and most likely getting things wrong.  At which point god shrugs, chuckles, and drops them into hell for eternal torture and suffering.  (And don't get me started on a loving god that would allow the flourishing of so many other religions, never mind different denominations and interpretations of its own).

Sorry Truth - but any god that confuses the issues when the stakes are so high is no god I will even consider.  I refuse to play his little games, as I would refuse to play any game so deliberately stacked against me.  It is simply not a being I have any respect for, and I reject it.  And I find it odd, and saddening, that so many people are so desperate for its approval - though I suspect that their concern is more for saving their own eternal skins rather than any real love for such a "god"
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Hatter23 on September 19, 2011, 07:15:22 AM
When you say "There is no objective meaning in a literary text, it simply does not exist," are you saying no specific information is actually being given, that no underlying message is necessarily being present, or that we should not read anything into (give greater meaning to) the info in the narrative in order to glean a "deeper meaning?"?

Bold mine.

That's the SUBJECTIVE part. Someone has to GIVE. Were it objective, one wouldn't have to GIVE anything.

I would agree with you 100% here. The point of contention I believe many have though is related to whether or not the entirety of the texts requires that meaning be given to it. Obviously many parts do, however that does not appear to be the case for many other parts. In other words it is my argument that much of the Bible does NOT require the use of a magic "decoder ring", while other seem to imply that all of the writings require one and since there's no way to objectively prove which decoder is best, then there's no way any of it  can be properly understood.

change of bold mine.

Properly??? Still subjective.
What is or isn't subjective isn't even the main problem here, although it is a valid point.  Let me re-quote part of this conversation...

In other words it is my argument that much of the Bible does NOT require the use of a magic "decoder ring", while other seem to imply that all of the writings require one and since there's no way to objectively prove which decoder is best, then there's no way any of it can be properly understood.
The bold words there.  Read them again.  If it can't be understood, then why put a major world religion on the book?  In essence, you have just made Christianity less plausible than Scientology.  And, if the Bible needs no magic decoder ring, as you say, then it should be clear and easy to understand, which, according to the bold words, is not true.  You have made a fool of your religion and your deity.  May your moronic and all-hating God have mercy on your soul.

Actually I do think it is the main pint and that portion of the argument. He's stating there are parts of the Bible which don't require interpretation...that there is no "magic decoder ring" needed.  Then he says there is only one way there are to be understood "properly" Which leads back to his hidden special pleading fallacy....his "only way" is no different by any objective standard than any different "only way"
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: screwtape on September 19, 2011, 12:58:40 PM
I stand accused and find myself having to plead guilty. I have often looked at the beliefs and religious practices out there and asserted that many if not most have no biblical foundation to stand on. When I am asked what SHOULD be practiced, all I am able to do is give my OPINION based on my understanding.

I am curious to know, in plain, straight forward language what you meant here^.  There seems to be a lot said between the lines.  I just want to make sure I am not seeing things that are not there.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Truth OT on September 19, 2011, 01:14:29 PM
I stand accused and find myself having to plead guilty. I have often looked at the beliefs and religious practices out there and asserted that many if not most have no biblical foundation to stand on. When I am asked what SHOULD be practiced, all I am able to do is give my OPINION based on my understanding.

I am curious to know, in plain, straight forward language what you meant here^.  There seems to be a lot said between the lines.  I just want to make sure I am not seeing things that are not there.

The basic idea is that we are given no clearity from the scriptures as it relates to what, IF ANY religious practices are mandated. Any, including me, who claim to know all of what we must do from a religious perspective, make such a claim without the scripture's confirmation of such ideas.
It is easier to point out what the scriptures do not say or mandate than it is to say what, IF ANYTHING they mandate, especially for us, a secondary audience at best to whom none of the scriptural writings were initially directed.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Truth OT on September 19, 2011, 04:50:19 PM
Much is literal, what of those parts?
Can you explain, where any parts of the bible are literal please, thank you.

Why would something literal need to be explaned?
Because you're declaring it as fact, You're say it isn't exaggerated; You're saying it is actual/factual/true. It is your burden to prove that.

U a HATTER bertatberts! How you go change my karma cuz you got impatient and felt like your post was worthy of not only a response, but a rapid one. How rude, how vain.........but anyhow, to address you ranting:

I'm confused here. Are you insinuating that I am equating something being written literally with that subject matter also being factual? I am not trying to do such a thing, all I am doing is saying that much of the writings are written in a literal manner as oppossed to all of the writings being written figuratively.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Omen on September 19, 2011, 05:51:54 PM
lit·er·al
? ?[lit-er-uhl] Show IPA
adjective
1.
in accordance with, involving, or being the primary or strict meaning of the word or words; not figurative or metaphorical: the literal meaning of a word.
2.
following the words of the original very closely and exactly: a literal translation of Goethe.
3.true to fact; not exaggerated; actual or factual: a literal description of conditions.
4.
being actually such, without exaggeration or inaccuracy: the literal extermination of a city.
5.
(of persons) tending to construe words in the strict sense or in an unimaginative way; matter-of-fact; prosaic.


It becomes confusing as soon as you need to obfuscate.

You can even follow your line of obfuscation from question to question, never answering anything and never explaining yourself.  What about your religious beliefs motivates you to be such dishonesty?
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Brakeman on September 19, 2011, 05:56:31 PM
Why don't you just pray to god to give you the magic decoder ring? Why would he refuse?
If he doesn't exist, then you'll get no answer. If he does then you'll be able to come back here and answer all of our questions perfectly.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: fungusdrool on September 19, 2011, 11:40:31 PM
Why don't you just pray to god to give you the magic decoder ring? Why would he refuse?
If he doesn't exist, then you'll get no answer. If he does then you'll be able to come back here and answer all of our questions perfectly.

Your plea is based on logic, which was never the religiosity's agenda.
Do you really expect the unlike to respond in kind?

To reach the lost you must be more than generous.
Not less than gracious.

Let's build a bridge to help those less fortunate than ourselves. 
Let's help them to find what they lack--so that they might find what they need for themselves.

Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: velkyn on September 20, 2011, 11:28:38 AM
The problem is, TOT, is that you have said that the bible can be "properly" understood.  Can it or can't it?

Such a claim must be retracted as making that claim is saying way more than can be backed up objectively. The writings can only be understood to a point and beyond that point, one is then forced to hypothesize, make educated guesses, and fill in holes. See, I can admit when I was wrong. :)

It seemst that "point" is whatever you want to claim it is, after reading the rest of this thread.   You pointing out what is "wrong' with religion is pretty amusing and pretty much the same "I have the proper understanding" as we started out with.

and: 

Quote
Such conclusions are not out of the realm of possibility, but have very little textual support. Those who promote such idea must go through great lengths to connect dots that may in fact be totally unrelated to each other. If the Glenn Becks of the world can connect everything to George Soros I guess these guys can make their connections as well

I see a claim of "very little textual support" but I don't see how you know this or can support it, it seems to be one more vague claim.  I do see kcrady showing the parallells clearly.   
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Benny on September 20, 2011, 02:24:22 PM
...Let me re-quote part of this conversation...

In other words it is my argument that much of the Bible does NOT require the use of a magic "decoder ring", while other seem to imply that all of the writings require one and since there's no way to objectively prove which decoder is best, then there's no way any of it can be properly understood.
The bold words there.  Read them again.  If it can't be understood, then why put a major world religion on the book?  In essence, you have just made Christianity less plausible than Scientology.  And, if the Bible needs no magic decoder ring, as you say, then it should be clear and easy to understand, which, according to the bold words, is not true.  You have made a fool of your religion and your deity.  May your moronic and all-hating God have mercy on your soul.

Please respond to this.  I'm still waiting.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Truth OT on September 20, 2011, 02:54:42 PM
Young Benny, let me fill you in on what I believe and I think you will better understand why it is that I didn't respond to what you posted about a major world religion being on the book. In a nutshell, I agree that organizing a structured and hierarchial corporate religion based on things written to people that have been dead for at least 1900 plus years is foolish and disingenous. So you see Benny, I am and have been for some time, an anti-organized religion person.

In addition, I have voiced my opinion that the religion of various kinds of Christianity exists nowhere within the pages of the NT and are all manmade religions loosely based (some more loosely than others) on the NT writings.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Benny on September 20, 2011, 03:21:39 PM
Young Benny,
:?  When did I ask to be addressed as "Young?"  I believe this is supposed to be some kind of a comment on my apparently low maturity, but I'll let it slide for now.

let me fill you in on what I believe and I think you will better understand why it is that I didn't respond to what you posted about a major world religion being on the book.
You could have explained this when I posted that, but you obviously get around to answering things whenever the hell you feel like it.  I say it again: Very rude, but I'll let it slide.

In a nutshell, I agree that organizing a structured and hierarchial corporate religion based on things written to people that have been dead for at least 1900 plus years is foolish and disingenous. So you see Benny, I am and have been for some time, an anti-organized religion person.

In addition, I have voiced my opinion that the religion of various kinds of Christianity exists nowhere within the pages of the NT and are all manmade religions loosely based (some more loosely than others) on the NT writings.
So explain to me, TOT, are you a Christian?  If so, you are a very hypocritical one at that, not following your own holy book.  If not, then what the hell ARE you?  Please, explain clearly and thoroughly what you believe.  That's a quick way to get on the good side of the atheists here... explain yourself.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Truth OT on September 20, 2011, 04:24:16 PM
Young Benny,
:?  When did I ask to be addressed as "Young?"  I believe this is supposed to be some kind of a comment on my apparently low maturity, but I'll let it slide for now.

Young is a wonderful trait to have on your side and is not necessarily an indication of one's maturity, so please don't take my calling you Young Benny as a personal attack. If it bothered you, I apologize.

let me fill you in on what I believe and I think you will better understand why it is that I didn't respond to what you posted about a major world religion being on the book.
You could have explained this when I posted that, but you obviously get around to answering things whenever the hell you feel like it.  I say it again: Very rude, but I'll let it slide.

Well am I not entitled to decide when I respond and what merits a response from me especially considering the volume of posts I do in fact respond to? Somethings take priority over others, besides had you read other past posts of mine, I beleive you would have come to understand what you inquired about on your own. 

So explain to me, TOT, are you a Christian?  If so, you are a very hypocritical one at that, not following your own holy book.  If not, then what the hell ARE you?  Please, explain clearly and thoroughly what you believe.  That's a quick way to get on the good side of the atheists here... explain yourself.

It is something I have aspired to be for quite sometime. I do not give myself that title as I honestly am unsure what is required to merit such. I believe that those that initially wore that title were given it by those who observed them in the practice of their Christlikeness, if I may coin a word.
You call me hypocritical, why? What actions of mine are in direct contrast with things that I have said and in what ways do you feel am I not practicing what my "holy book" requires of me?
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Benny on September 20, 2011, 05:44:01 PM
You call me hypocritical, why? What actions of mine are in direct contrast with things that I have said and in what ways do you feel am I not practicing what my "holy book" requires of me?

You said you don't believe in founding a religion on people who lived 1900 years ago, but alas, that is EXACTLY what Christianity is.  Either you're a liar for trusting the Bible, or you're a hypocrite for not trusting it.  If you don't take the bible literally in its entirety, then you are not a Christian, no matter what you say.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Truth OT on September 20, 2011, 06:01:28 PM
You call me hypocritical, why? What actions of mine are in direct contrast with things that I have said and in what ways do you feel am I not practicing what my "holy book" requires of me?

You said you don't believe in founding a religion on people who lived 1900 years ago, but alas, that is EXACTLY what Christianity is.  Either you're a liar for trusting the Bible, or you're a hypocrite for not trusting it.  If you don't take the bible literally in its entirety, then you are not a Christian, no matter what you say.

So you are the authority as it pertains to defining what Christianity is. One must take the Bible as being completely literal and inerrant to be a Christian according to you, nice to know. Thanks for the info.
But to be clear, my insistance is that founding an organized corporate hierarchial religion on writings aimed at others that have long since died is foolish. Churchianity is admittedly a flawed religion.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: JeffPT on September 20, 2011, 07:41:29 PM
So you are the authority as it pertains to defining what Christianity is. One must take the Bible as being completely literal and inerrant to be a Christian according to you, nice to know. Thanks for the info.

I've always thought of this in very simple terms.  The bible is either true, or not true.  It's fiction or non-fiction.  It's either written by God (or through God), or not written by God.  The minute you try to claim some parts of it are fiction, it sets up a big problem, because admitting that some of it is fiction opens the door for ALL of it being fiction.  And with the lack of evidence for any of it, one instance of admitted fiction causes the bottom to fall out. 

Any person who claims to be Christian who is NOT following the bible literally is (at the very least) making up their own religion.  If I were a Christian, I would be a biblical literalist.  It's the only type of Christian I can find myself respecting for their integrity.  The literalists are nuts, and completely wrong about God, but at least they've got the guts to face the consequences of their beliefs.   

my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Alzael on September 20, 2011, 08:18:55 PM

I'm confused here. Are you insinuating that I am equating something being written literally with that subject matter also being factual? I am not trying to do such a thing, all I am doing is saying that much of the writings are written in a literal manner as oppossed to all of the writings being written figuratively.

You still fail to justify this. Despite the number of times that it is brought up. You still refuse to respond to this point, no matter how many times you are asked to answer to it.

HOW DO YOU KNOW?

To quote myself from back before "More to the point, you have yet to address how you determine what is meant literally and what is meant figuratively. And, more to the point, how that differentiates you from everyone else who claims different."

You still ignore the important question that is being asked and we still find ourselves coming back to it in every thread. It is not going to go away no matter how much you try to hide.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: screwtape on September 20, 2011, 09:39:38 PM
If you don't take the bible literally in its entirety, then you are not a Christian, no matter what you say.

Not so, Benito. xians of the Catholic variety are not biblical literalists.  This is because the church came before the bible and created the bible as a tool for religious instruction, not the other way around.  It was not until later that people began to make the bible itself into some kind of fetish, a graven image, a god before yhwh, and claim it was the only source of knowledge regarding yhwh, jesus H and the holy goblin.

And go easy on TOT.   He may have some funny beliefs, but he is basically a nice person.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Add Homonym on September 20, 2011, 10:54:20 PM
but he is basically a nice person.

Yes.

I could do with a restatement of what his beliefs are, because I may have missed some, or lost track of them.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: bertatberts on September 21, 2011, 02:21:03 AM
BM
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Hatter23 on September 21, 2011, 07:34:49 AM
So you are the authority as it pertains to defining what Christianity is. One must take the Bible as being completely literal and inerrant to be a Christian according to you, nice to know. Thanks for the info.

I've always thought of this in very simple terms.  The bible is either true, or not true.  It's fiction or non-fiction.  It's either written by God (or through God), or not written by God.  The minute you try to claim some parts of it are fiction, it sets up a big problem, because admitting that some of it is fiction opens the door for ALL of it being fiction.  And with the lack of evidence for any of it, one instance of admitted fiction causes the bottom to fall out. 

Any person who claims to be Christian who is NOT following the bible literally is (at the very least) making up their own religion.  If I were a Christian, I would be a biblical literalist.  It's the only type of Christian I can find myself respecting for their integrity.  The literalists are nuts, and completely wrong about God, but at least they've got the guts to face the consequences of their beliefs.   

my 2 cents.

I never cottoned to the "all or nothing" approach. There are some minor things, there and there, in The Origin of Species that are wrong. Does that invalidate the ToE? No.

I can easily understand why someone could be a Catholic. Where there is tradition and dogma that is sifting over the text and trying to create a coherent set of principles.

The Bottom drops out, at least in my opinion, when you encounter non-Christian religions. So now it isn't even the same text, the same deity. What seperate My Christianity as provable?

The answer is nothing.

That being said, I treat it for what it is: a slanted history of a particular people that has been intermingled with myth, legends, and fables. Just like every other religious text.

Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: velkyn on September 21, 2011, 09:10:42 AM
but he is basically a nice person.

Yes.

I could do with a restatement of what his beliefs are, because I may have missed some, or lost track of them.

SPAG like every Christian/theist.   
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Alzael on September 21, 2011, 03:55:47 PM

And go easy on TOT.   He may have some funny beliefs, but he is basically a nice person.

Your Mileage May Vary on this, Mr.Tape.

It depends on how one defines a nice person. Personally I would entirely disagree with you in this regard. I would say that he is fairly polite. But politeness is irrelevant from my perspective. I see very little in his behaviour to categorize him as "nice".

For one thing, a "nice" person wouldn't be so consistently dishonest. Actually that alone puts him fairly low in my opinion.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Truth OT on September 21, 2011, 04:35:56 PM
Alzy you frequently state this allegation. Why? What is it that I have lied about? Is this allegation objective or might you be biased towards me because of that with which we disagree?
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Omen on September 21, 2011, 04:45:20 PM
Alzy you frequently state this allegation. Why? What is it that I have lied about? Is this allegation objective or might you be biased towards me because of that with which we disagree?

So now you pretend like people haven't called you out on avoiding questions, omitting information from posts relevant to what you counter with, respond with red herrings, etc?

Or are you pretending like none of that behavior is dishonest?

Or is it that you think if you don't acknowledge when people point it out, you can pretend like it never existed?
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Alzael on September 21, 2011, 05:23:12 PM
Alzy you frequently state this allegation. Why? What is it that I have lied about? Is this allegation objective or might you be biased towards me because of that with which we disagree?

I said you were dishonest. Not that you had simply lied.

It is entirely objective. I have made entire posts in this thread alone pointing out your various dishonesties. It has been done in other threads as well by many different posters. You simply ignore all of those instances, mucha s you ignore most of the important points made and questions asked. Much as you're still ignoring the main question that is still being asked by everyone.

Your history of dishonesty, and being called out on it is a matter of record on this forum. Don't make some sad attempt to try and insinuate a bias on my part.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: screwtape on September 22, 2011, 09:04:21 AM
It depends on how one defines a nice person. Personally I would entirely disagree with you in this regard.

yes, but you are a miserable prick.


Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Alzael on September 22, 2011, 03:09:12 PM
It depends on how one defines a nice person. Personally I would entirely disagree with you in this regard.

yes, but you are a miserable prick.

Pot.Kettle.Black.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: screwtape on September 22, 2011, 03:58:42 PM
guilty as charged.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Alzael on September 22, 2011, 04:45:38 PM
guilty as charged.

However I believe "cantankerous" would better describe me, as opposed to "miserable".
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: rickymooston on September 28, 2011, 03:55:03 AM
We could construct on a whim any meaning drawn at random from any text

Awesome. I assume a lot of cherry picking is required to do this?

Here is the text.
http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/61/pg61.html

The meaning I want to derive is that the stock market is great for society, that those who inherit great wealth should be respected and that the role of the labourer is to serve his betters and that its logical he shouldn't earn too much whereas the owner should control everything. For extra points, get the meaning that Jesus is the son of God who must be worshipped and that blacks are inferior people and the whites should be respected.

Here is the text.
http://www.crusader.net/texts/mk/

The meaning I challenge you to derive from it? Jews are fantastic intelligent people, who have contributed a great deal to the German society and culture. Germans are idiots and the treaty of Versailes was fair. Society should care about everybody. War is a bad thing.

Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Omen on September 28, 2011, 10:07:46 AM
We could construct on a whim any meaning drawn at random from any text

Awesome. I assume a lot of cherry picking is required to do this?

Here is the entire explanation you omitted:

What makes it really patently stupid is that we can literally pick up anything we wish and practice the same specious fallacies.  We could construct on a whim any meaning drawn at random from any text, without explanation and dependent upon nothing more than our arbitrary pleading that that is the intention.  We could then dismiss contradictions and explain them way, by making up new rationalizations or inserting new qualifications ( again per special pleading ), to the point where you could not find a contradiction that we would agree too.  Having presupposed it as true to begin with, then any rationalization we make is an inherent tautology.  We've already assumed it to be true, a contradiction can't make it false since we've assumed it as absolutely true, so the contradiction must be a different explanation rather then the disproof of the claim.

This is the standard M.O. of EVERY single religion on the planet.



Quote
Here is the text.
http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/61/pg61.html

The meaning I want to derive is that the stock market is great for society, that those who inherit great wealth should be respected and that the role of the labourer is to serve his betters and that its logical he shouldn't earn too much whereas the owner should control everything. For extra points, get the meaning that Jesus is the son of God who must be worshipped and that blacks are inferior people and the whites should be respected.

Then presuppose that as self evident truth and then rationalize the text towards that.

Quote
Here is the text.
http://www.crusader.net/texts/mk/

The meaning I challenge you to derive from it? Jews are fantastic intelligent people, who have contributed a great deal to the German society and culture. Germans are idiots and the treaty of Versailes was fair. Society should care about everybody. War is a bad thing.


Then presuppose that as self evident truth and then rationalize the text towards that.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Hatter23 on September 28, 2011, 10:47:30 AM

Then presuppose that as self evident truth and then rationalize the text towards that.

More than a little hard, but that isn't a surprise because he used modern authors who used modern( i.e. plain) language in books that were by a single author.

Basically he's cheating, or being intellectually dishonest if you will, by using an uneven analogy. If he chose some sort of anthology of poems, short stories, fables, and essays written in, say, the mid 19th century, the analogy would be good.

Of course you did say 'any text.' I would avoid using that term in the future.

My favorite thing to do in this regards if to pick up a comic book, and find predictive versus in Nostradomus or the Bible that can be interpreted as "predicting" the  fictional elements of the story
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Omen on September 28, 2011, 10:52:55 AM
Basically he's cheating, or being intellectually dishonest if you will, by using an uneven analogy. If he chose some sort of anthology of poems, short stories, fables, and essays written in, say, the mid 19th century, the analogy would be good.

He's being obtuse with a poorly worded devil's advocate, its common ricky nonsense.
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Historicity on September 28, 2011, 02:54:20 PM
Awesome. I assume a lot of cherry picking is required to do this?

Here is the text.
http://www.crusader.net/texts/mk/
(I corrected your link. You had them backwards.)
The meaning I want to derive is that the stock market is great for society, that those who inherit great wealth should be respected and that the role of the labourer is to serve his betters and that its logical he shouldn't earn too much whereas the owner should control everything.

Okay with a little editing.  Since it wasn't originally written in English I allowed my self some leeway in the translation.[1]  I have edited some passages merely for brevity as I did not think them important.[2]

Quote
THE TRIUMPH OF FREE ENTERPRISE

Freeman and slave, patrician and plebeian, lord and serf, guild-master and journeyman, in a word, oppressor and oppressed, stood in constant opposition to one another, carried on an uninterrupted, now hidden, now open fight, a fight that each time ended, either in a revolutionary re-constitution of society at large, or in the common ruin of the contending classes.

In the earlier epochs of history, we find almost everywhere a complicated arrangement of society into various orders, a manifold gradation of social rank. In ancient Rome we have patricians, knights, plebeians, slaves; in the Middle Ages, feudal lords, vassals, guild-masters, journeymen, apprentices, serfs; in almost all of these classes, again, subordinate gradations.

The modern bourgeois society that has sprouted from the ruins of feudal society ... has ... established new classes, new conditions ... new forms of struggle in place of the old ones. Our epoch, the epoch of Free Enterprise, ...

From the serfs of the Middle Ages sprang the chartered burghers of the earliest towns. From these burgesses the first elements of Free Enterprise were developed.

The discovery of America, the rounding of the Cape, opened up fresh ground for the rising bourgeoisie. The East-Indian and Chinese markets, the colonization of America, trade with the colonies, the increase in the means of exchange and in commodities generally, gave to commerce, to navigation, to industry, an impulse never before known, and thereby, to the revolutionary element in the tottering feudal society, a rapid development.

The feudal system of industry, under which industrial production was monopolised by closed guilds, now no longer sufficed for the growing wants of the new markets. The manufacturing system took its place. The guild-masters were pushed on one side by the manufacturing middle class; division of labour between the different corporate guilds vanished in the face of division of labour in each single workshop.

Meantime the markets kept ever growing, the demand ever rising. Even manufacture no longer sufficed. Thereupon, steam and machinery revolutionised industrial production. The place of manufacture was taken by the giant, Modern Industry, the place of the industrial middle class, by industrial millionaires, the leaders of whole industrial armies, the modern bourgeois.

Modern industry has established the world-market, for which the discovery of America paved the way. This market has given an immense development to commerce, to navigation, to communication by land. This development has, in its time, reacted on the extension of industry; and in proportion as industry, commerce, navigation, railways extended, in the same proportion Free Enterprise developed, increased its capital, and pushed into the background every class handed down from the Middle Ages.

We see, therefore, how the modern bourgeoisie is itself the product of a long course of development, of a series of revolutions in the modes of production and of exchange.

Each step in the development of Free Enterprise was accompanied by a corresponding political advance... Free Enterprise has at last, since the establishment of Modern Industry and of the world-market, conquered for itself, in the modern representative State, exclusive political sway. The executive of the modern State is but a committee for managing the common affairs...

Free Enterprise, historically, has played a most revolutionary part.

Free Enterprise, wherever it has got the upper hand, has put an end to all feudal, patriarchal, idyllic relations. It has pitilessly torn asunder the motley feudal ties that bound man to his "natural superiors," and has left remaining no other nexus between man and man than naked self-interest, than callous "cash payment." It has drowned the most heavenly ecstasies of religious fervour, of chivalrous enthusiasm, of philistine sentimentalism, in the icy water of egotistical calculation. It has resolved personal worth into exchange value, and in place of the numberless and indefeasible chartered freedoms, has set up that single, unconscionable freedom—Free Trade.

Or to simplify, "Greed -- for the lack of a better word -- is good," said Gordon Gecko.

And much, much more.  Ricky you googled and posted the link but I don't think you read the book.  I read it when I was a teenager and before I started reading I read the translator's intro.  He noted that in the first chapter Marx so praises capitalism that he virtually makes an argument for the wrong side.  I just elided a few hot button words like "slavery".  This is a quick job I did, if I gave it a little thought I could have euphemized it with the appropriate "translation".  This is the pure Republican ideology -- the poor have TV sets and electric lights.  And on their TVs they can watch "Life Styles of the Rich and Famous" so they can have their champagne dreams while sipping High Gravity.
 1. I'm lying.
 2. Ditto
Title: Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
Post by: Historicity on September 28, 2011, 03:24:57 PM
We could construct on a whim any meaning drawn at random from any text
Awesome. I assume a lot of cherry picking is required to do this?
...
Here is the text.
http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/61/pg61.html

The meaning I challenge you to derive from it? Jews are fantastic intelligent people, who have contributed a great deal to the German society and culture.

Okay, one more time.  Hitler admired the Jews and held them up as a model for the Aryan people.[1]

From the chapter "Nation and Race":

Quote
The mightiest counterpart to the Aryan is represented by the Jew. In hardly any people in the world is the instinct of self-preservation developed more strongly ... Of this, the mere fact of the survival of this race may be considered the best proof. Where is the people which in the last two thousand years has been exposed to so few changes of inner disposition, character, etc., as the Jewish people? What people, finally, has gone through greater upheavals than this one -- and nevertheless issued from the mightiest catastrophes of mankind unchanged? What an infinitely tough will to live and preserve the species speaks from these facts!

The mental qualities of the Jew have been schooled in the course of many centuries. Today he passes as 'smart,' and ... has been at all times. ... The boy of today, for example, grows up among a truly vast number of technical acquisitions of the last centuries, so that he takes for granted and no longer pays attention to much that a hundred years ago was a riddle to even the greatest minds, ... [The Jew's] intellect at all times developed through the cultural world surrounding him.

Wow, the Jews are courageous and tough and have always been on the cutting edge of technical and cultural development.   Adolph Hitler (with slight editing for clarity and y'know, well, ,) said so!  Given that quote, how can you say he was anti-Semitic?[2]  You were probably misinformed by the dirty Communists.[3]

 1. I'm doing that prevarication thing again.
 2. Rhetorical question. Don't bother to answer.
 3. Look up "mendacity" in the dictionary, or better yet, see Elizabeth Taylor and Paul Newman in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0051459/) just 'cause Liz was really yummy 50 years ago.