whywontgodhealamputees.com

Main Discussion Zone => Why Won't God Heal Amputees? => Topic started by: servantofgod on May 10, 2011, 10:30:17 PM

Title: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 10, 2011, 10:30:17 PM
God, and by God I mean the judeo-christian God, is not limited.  Nothing is too difficult for Him to do.  He is God Almighty and can do anything.  It is just as easy for Him to heal an amputee as it is to raise someone from the dead.  The bible has testimony of several miracles which were of a greater order than healing a lost limb, so why this particular case is noteworthy to atheists I have no idea. 

If God did heal an amputee, would you know about it?  Do you have a list of every amputee in the world and what happens to them?  Why do you think God wouldn't do it?  Do you think He can't do it?

You're going about this the wrong way, if you want to know anything about God.  You're trying to deconstruct something you don't understand.  It is literally impossible for an unbeliever to understand the bible.  Personally, I haven't known many atheists who have ever tried.  Most of them seem to memorize a few passgaes they think helps their arguments and that's it.  Personally I think it's fairly ignorant to judge something you don't even understand yourself.

If you want to know if Jesus is real or not, put Him to the test.  With a sincere heart, pray to Him like this:

Jesus, if you do exist I want to know about it and I want to know you.  Please reveal yourself to me Jesus;  show me that you're real.

If you you do that Jesus will show you that He is real and that He is Almighty God.  Here is a word for you:

Matthew 11:28

Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest

God bless.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Azdgari on May 10, 2011, 10:38:30 PM
Quote
God, and by God I mean the judeo-christian God, is not limited.  Nothing is too difficult for Him to do.  He is God Almighty and can do anything.  It is just as easy for Him to heal an amputee as it is to raise someone from the dead.  The bible has testimony of several miracles which were of a greater order than healing a lost limb, so why this particular case is noteworthy to atheists I have no idea.

It is the Bible and its stories themselves which are in need of verification, SoG.  This website's question is one way of verifying them.  And they fail the test, when put to it.

Why would a real god choose to fail such a test, when it could succeed?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 10, 2011, 10:45:46 PM
Quote
God, and by God I mean the judeo-christian God, is not limited.  Nothing is too difficult for Him to do.  He is God Almighty and can do anything.  It is just as easy for Him to heal an amputee as it is to raise someone from the dead.  The bible has testimony of several miracles which were of a greater order than healing a lost limb, so why this particular case is noteworthy to atheists I have no idea.

It is the Bible and its stories themselves which are in need of verification, SoG.  This website's question is one way of verifying them.  And they fail the test, when put to it.

Why would a real god choose to fail such a test, when it could succeed?

They are verified by God Himself.  That was my point above that, if you actually tried to know Jesus, you would see that.   The bible perfectly describes not only what is happening on Earth now, but also how to obtain salvation and know God.

We only know God by natural and special revelation.  Natural revelation is that God has made His appearance plain, that His eternal attributes are apparent from the things He has made.  Special revelation is when God comes to you personally.  Everyone can know God in this way if they ask to. 
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Alzael on May 10, 2011, 10:46:50 PM
So then you can't actually answer the question. All you can do is make excuses for why you can't answer the question.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: jetson on May 10, 2011, 10:51:15 PM
Jesus Christ, what are you, six?  It's one thing to come in to have a discussion, but it's completely another thing to stop by and drool Jesus slobber all over the rest of us.  Stop your stupid preaching and show me your fucking god already.  God, the character in your tired little storybook, is an unequivocal ass-hat.  The likes of which cannot be surpassed by 1,000 Hitlers.

Create the world, stick two people in it, tempt them, watch them eat a piece of fruit, doom every single human forever to hell unless they bend over and kiss his divine ass, and years later, realize that humans are complete garbage, wipe them all out in a flood and start over...and then the killing starts with Joshua and his terrorists...

Yeah, it's not even good fiction....
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Nick on May 10, 2011, 10:53:14 PM
I think if an amputee was healed it might make the news.  The reason I don't think God would heal an amputee is because He does not exist.  There is no proof whatso ever for any kind of God.  You live in an imaginary world of sky daddies and make believe.  Pretty sad way to live a life.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 10, 2011, 10:55:51 PM
Jesus Christ, what are you, six?  It's one thing to come in to have a discussion, but it's completely another thing to stop by and drool Jesus slobber all over the rest of us.  Stop your stupid preaching and show me your fucking god already.  God, the character in your tired little storybook, is an unequivocal ass-hat.  The likes of which cannot be surpassed by 1,000 Hitlers.

Create the world, stick two people in it, tempt them, watch them eat a piece of fruit, doom every single human forever to hell unless they bend over and kiss his divine ass, and years later, realize that humans are complete garbage, wipe them all out in a flood and start over...and then the killing starts with Joshua and his terrorists...

Yeah, it's not even good fiction....

I told you you can know God directly.  He will reveal Himself to you if you ask Him to.  By that, I mean sincerely and not swearing at Him and cursing His name and demanding He do tricks for you.  But just genuinely wanting to know if He is actually real or not.  You seem to have made up your mind, but I am telling you that He will show Himself to you if you ask. 
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Nick on May 10, 2011, 10:59:00 PM
Many of us here have been on the religious side of things for a long time and played that game of asking Jesus to come into our hearts, livers, ears, etc.  Trouble is none of it worked.  Maybe we were not part of the "true" Christian group.  I'm guessing you will tell us which group God likes best.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 10, 2011, 10:59:38 PM
God has completely transformed me from top to bottom.  I am a new creation in Christ.  I used to lie, and cheat, and do all sorts of evil.  God helped me change that.  I find joy in my life, joy in the moment, in knowing Him and knowing His love for me and all mankind.  I find joy in the hope of Christ for all people.

My life before, where I felt consigned to a meaningless fate, was what was truly sad.  To be a prisoner of your own sins is more than sad, it is heartbreaking.  That is why I am telling you that He loves you, and will show Himself to you if you come to Him wanting to know Him.

I think if an amputee was healed it might make the news.  The reason I don't think God would heal an amputee is because He does not exist.  There is no proof whatso ever for any kind of God.  You live in an imaginary world of sky daddies and make believe.  Pretty sad way to live a life.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Death over Life on May 10, 2011, 10:59:59 PM
If you want to know if Jesus is real or not, put Him to the test.  With a sincere heart, pray to Him like this:

Jesus, if you do exist I want to know about it and I want to know you.  Please reveal yourself to me Jesus;  show me that you're real.

You know, even today, I’ve been doing this for over a decade, still do that, and I still hear nothing. I really don’t feel like refuting your arguments, because of how childish they are, but since I made this statement, I guess I might as well.

God, and by God I mean the judeo-christian God, is not limited.  Nothing is too difficult for Him to do.  He is God Almighty and can do anything.  It is just as easy for Him to heal an amputee as it is to raise someone from the dead.  The bible has testimony of several miracles which were of a greater order than healing a lost limb, so why this particular case is noteworthy to atheists I have no idea. 

If God is not limited, then why don’t we see any of these “miracles” happening today? Why aren’t we seeing people rising from the dead from their graveyards, or amputees’ limbs spontaneously regrowing?

If God is almighty and can do anything, then why can’t he stop people on Iron Chariots? What is it about them things that make it impossible for God to stop them?

Judges 1:19 – The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had iron chariots.

The reason why atheists are so obsessed with this particular question is because there is no middle-man that really does the work. Science, nor logic, nor reason can explain an arm or leg of a human out of the blue regrow like a lizard’s tail. Every form of a miracle claim known to man always has a doctor right there doing the actual work, or is something in nature that naturally happens. With an arm spontaneously regrowing, it has to be all god. When you remove the middle-man, you remove god’s powers and abilities, so pretty much, the christian god is not so omnipotent when he has lost his’ workers to do the work for him.

If God did heal an amputee, would you know about it?  Do you have a list of every amputee in the world and what happens to them?  Why do you think God wouldn't do it?  Do you think He can't do it?

If God did heal an amputee, with all the technology in the world we have today, that answer would be yes. We have cameras, photos, news reports, videos, etc.

Do you have a list of every amputee in the world and what happens to them either?  If not, I don’t see the point of that question.

Why do you think God wouldn't do it?
 

Because your god is a plagiarized god, and he doesn’t exist. Simple as that.

Do you think He can't do it?
 

 I don’t think he can’t. I know he can’t because the evidence has shown us he can’t do it, and if he could, do you know how many people on this planet would convert to Christianity and be saved? The numbers would be astronomical, and we would mostly be singing hallelujah for there IS a God! But reality shows that is just a dream that is never going to happen.

You're going about this the wrong way, if you want to know anything about God.  You're trying to deconstruct something you don't understand.  It is literally impossible for an unbeliever to understand the bible.  Personally, I haven't known many atheists who have ever tried.  Most of them seem to memorize a few passgaes they think helps their arguments and that's it.  Personally I think it's fairly ignorant to judge something you don't even understand yourself.
 

Alright then, since we all have it wrong (yet you misspell passages), why don’t you show us the way since god obviously has blessed you with his all-mighty wisdom and left us high and dry in the dark. How do you know if you even understand the bible?

Ironically, research and studies have shown that atheists and agnostics know more about Christianity than Christians do! Ironically, from the few months I’ve de-converted, I’ve seen far more Christians use certain passages for their arguments and forget about the rest (and I have over a decades worth of church attending to have as evidence and witnessing).

I think it’s fairly ignorant that you tell us we got it all wrong when you don’t even show us proof of a god healing an amputee with some of the claims you make! Come on, let us in on that video evidence you have, or that magical de-coder ring you have to show your version of Christianity is real as opposed to what the Bible really says!

If you you do that Jesus will show you that He is real and that He is Almighty God.  Here is a word for you:

Matthew 11:28

Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest

God bless.
 

Sorry, but I’m doing this even today, and have been for over a decade, and god still does nothing. For a god that wants to give me rest and for a god that loves me, he sure loves giving me the silent treatment, and silence is not a form of love!
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Nick on May 10, 2011, 11:02:19 PM
You see...I am happy with rational thought.  I don't need a crutch to make me whole like you do.  You just switch crutches in your life.  I don't need any of it to be happy and useful.  If you need delusion to make things work for you fine.  Most of us here have outgrown the need for an invisible sky daddy.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: jetson on May 10, 2011, 11:02:31 PM

I told you you can know God directly.  He will reveal Himself to you if you ask Him to.  By that, I mean sincerely and not swearing at Him and cursing His name and demanding He do tricks for you.  But just genuinely wanting to know if He is actually real or not.  You seem to have made up your mind, but I am telling you that He will show Himself to you if you ask.

Yes, another lovely piece of advice from someone who knows the mind of God.  If you had any idea how many times I've been told that God will reveal himself to me, you probably wouldn't believe me.  I have made up my mind - I don't believe in supernatural crap.  People don't come back to life, snakes don't talk, humans don't live inside of fish for three days.  These things do not happen, ever.  We know this now, because we have grown out of the mythology of ancient humans, who did not know this.

There is no god, there never was, and there never will be.  Maybe you should go watch Thor, the movie.  It was absolutely awesome!  It made Bible God very, very boring in terms of great fiction.  Seriously.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 10, 2011, 11:03:29 PM
Many of us here have been on the religious side of things for a long time and played that game of asking Jesus to come into our hearts, livers, ears, etc.  Trouble is none of it worked.  Maybe we were not part of the "true" Christian group.  I'm guessing you will tell us which group God likes best.

The true Christian is the one who follows Christ and obeys His word.  The true church is the body of Christ, of which every Christian is a member.  Personally, I am non-denominational.  I do not put any exclusivity on the body of Christ however.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Alzael on May 10, 2011, 11:04:21 PM
God has completely transformed me from top to bottom.  I am a new creation in Christ.  I used to lie, and cheat, and do all sorts of evil.  God helped me change that.  I find joy in my life, joy in the moment, in knowing Him and knowing His love for me and all mankind.  I find joy in the hope of Christ for all people.

So far you still seem to lie and cheat. You just seem to think it's okay because you have god on your side now. Funny how that seems to work huh?

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Nick on May 10, 2011, 11:05:15 PM
Many of us here have been on the religious side of things for a long time and played that game of asking Jesus to come into our hearts, livers, ears, etc.  Trouble is none of it worked.  Maybe we were not part of the "true" Christian group.  I'm guessing you will tell us which group God likes best.

The true Christian is the one who follows Christ and obeys His word.  The true church is the body of Christ, of which every Christian is a member.  Personally, I am non-denominational.  I do not put any exclusivity on the body of Christ however.
Right, well, that is convenient.

So why are you here on this forum?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Death over Life on May 10, 2011, 11:06:28 PM
Jesus Christ, what are you, six?  It's one thing to come in to have a discussion, but it's completely another thing to stop by and drool Jesus slobber all over the rest of us.  Stop your stupid preaching and show me your fucking god already.  God, the character in your tired little storybook, is an unequivocal ass-hat.  The likes of which cannot be surpassed by 1,000 Hitlers.

Create the world, stick two people in it, tempt them, watch them eat a piece of fruit, doom every single human forever to hell unless they bend over and kiss his divine ass, and years later, realize that humans are complete garbage, wipe them all out in a flood and start over...and then the killing starts with Joshua and his terrorists...

Yeah, it's not even good fiction....

I told you you can know God directly.  He will reveal Himself to you if you ask Him to.  By that, I mean sincerely and not swearing at Him and cursing His name and demanding He do tricks for you.  But just genuinely wanting to know if He is actually real or not.  You seem to have made up your mind, but I am telling you that He will show Himself to you if you ask.

I've been doing this sincerely for over a decade and even today, even right now. I have many Christian friends praying for me and for the exact same thing. I have many people who care for me and want me to come back to Christianity. The problem is, your God doesn't want me back because He won't come to me and heal me, like you claim.

Your god is either a lie, or a hypocrite, and as jetson said it best, an evil greater than 1,000 Adolf Hitlers.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 10, 2011, 11:09:25 PM
If you want to know if Jesus is real or not, put Him to the test.  With a sincere heart, pray to Him like this:

Jesus, if you do exist I want to know about it and I want to know you.  Please reveal yourself to me Jesus;  show me that you're real.

You know, even today, I’ve been doing this for over a decade, still do that, and I still hear nothing. I really don’t feel like refuting your arguments, because of how childish they are, but since I made this statement, I guess I might as well.

God, and by God I mean the judeo-christian God, is not limited.  Nothing is too difficult for Him to do.  He is God Almighty and can do anything.  It is just as easy for Him to heal an amputee as it is to raise someone from the dead.  The bible has testimony of several miracles which were of a greater order than healing a lost limb, so why this particular case is noteworthy to atheists I have no idea. 

If God is not limited, then why don’t we see any of these “miracles” happening today? Why aren’t we seeing people rising from the dead from their graveyards, or amputees’ limbs spontaneously regrowing?

If God is almighty and can do anything, then why can’t he stop people on Iron Chariots? What is it about them things that make it impossible for God to stop them?

Judges 1:19 – The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had iron chariots.

The reason why atheists are so obsessed with this particular question is because there is no middle-man that really does the work. Science, nor logic, nor reason can explain an arm or leg of a human out of the blue regrow like a lizard’s tail. Every form of a miracle claim known to man always has a doctor right there doing the actual work, or is something in nature that naturally happens. With an arm spontaneously regrowing, it has to be all god. When you remove the middle-man, you remove god’s powers and abilities, so pretty much, the christian god is not so omnipotent when he has lost his’ workers to do the work for him.

If God did heal an amputee, would you know about it?  Do you have a list of every amputee in the world and what happens to them?  Why do you think God wouldn't do it?  Do you think He can't do it?

If God did heal an amputee, with all the technology in the world we have today, that answer would be yes. We have cameras, photos, news reports, videos, etc.

Do you have a list of every amputee in the world and what happens to them either?  If not, I don’t see the point of that question.

Why do you think God wouldn't do it?
 

Because your god is a plagiarized god, and he doesn’t exist. Simple as that.

Do you think He can't do it?
 

 I don’t think he can’t. I know he can’t because the evidence has shown us he can’t do it, and if he could, do you know how many people on this planet would convert to Christianity and be saved? The numbers would be astronomical, and we would mostly be singing hallelujah for there IS a God! But reality shows that is just a dream that is never going to happen.

You're going about this the wrong way, if you want to know anything about God.  You're trying to deconstruct something you don't understand.  It is literally impossible for an unbeliever to understand the bible.  Personally, I haven't known many atheists who have ever tried.  Most of them seem to memorize a few passgaes they think helps their arguments and that's it.  Personally I think it's fairly ignorant to judge something you don't even understand yourself.
 

Alright then, since we all have it wrong (yet you misspell passages), why don’t you show us the way since god obviously has blessed you with his all-mighty wisdom and left us high and dry in the dark. How do you know if you even understand the bible?

Ironically, research and studies have shown that atheists and agnostics know more about Christianity than Christians do! Ironically, from the few months I’ve de-converted, I’ve seen far more Christians use certain passages for their arguments and forget about the rest (and I have over a decades worth of church attending to have as evidence and witnessing).

I think it’s fairly ignorant that you tell us we got it all wrong when you don’t even show us proof of a god healing an amputee with some of the claims you make! Come on, let us in on that video evidence you have, or that magical de-coder ring you have to show your version of Christianity is real as opposed to what the Bible really says!

If you you do that Jesus will show you that He is real and that He is Almighty God.  Here is a word for you:

Matthew 11:28

Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest

God bless.
 

Sorry, but I’m doing this even today, and have been for over a decade, and god still does nothing. For a god that wants to give me rest and for a god that loves me, he sure loves giving me the silent treatment, and silence is not a form of love!

Some things are due to Gods timing.  For instance, I was agnostic for most of my life, when God suddenly revealed Himself to me.  I did not seek Him out, He chose me.  Why, I don't know..but now of course I wish I had heard from Him when I was a kid.  Yet, it's up to Him.

Let me tell you this much, and I know you are telling the truth about what you are saying.  That you have sincerely sought Him. 

Jesus put it on my heart to come here and tell you, and anyone else here who will listen, that if you ask to know Him sincerely, if you pray to Him and ask if He is real, He will reveal Himself to you.  I know He is serious about it so please, try Him once more.  If you seek you will find.  I will spend some time reading the rest of your post and answering it.  God bless.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Alzael on May 10, 2011, 11:11:13 PM
The true Christian is the one who follows Christ and obeys His word.  The true church is the body of Christ, of which every Christian is a member.  Personally, I am non-denominational.  I do not put any exclusivity on the body of Christ however.

So then I take it that you've given everything that you have away? I assume that you're using a computer in the public library then right? So you've gone left your family behind?

I'm sure you do because you, of course, are not a liar or a hypocrite. Despite about half of the things you've said so far.

By that, I mean sincerely and not swearing at Him and cursing His name and demanding He do tricks for you.

But he says in the bible that he will perform tricks for us. Are you saying that the bible is a book of lies? Or did you just skip that part? Better question, have you actually read it?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 10, 2011, 11:17:06 PM

I told you you can know God directly.  He will reveal Himself to you if you ask Him to.  By that, I mean sincerely and not swearing at Him and cursing His name and demanding He do tricks for you.  But just genuinely wanting to know if He is actually real or not.  You seem to have made up your mind, but I am telling you that He will show Himself to you if you ask.

Yes, another lovely piece of advice from someone who knows the mind of God.  If you had any idea how many times I've been told that God will reveal himself to me, you probably wouldn't believe me.  I have made up my mind - I don't believe in supernatural crap.  People don't come back to life, snakes don't talk, humans don't live inside of fish for three days.  These things do not happen, ever.  We know this now, because we have grown out of the mythology of ancient humans, who did not know this.

There is no god, there never was, and there never will be.  Maybe you should go watch Thor, the movie.  It was absolutely awesome!  It made Bible God very, very boring in terms of great fiction.  Seriously.

I did see Thor..I thought it was entertaining, yet it really pales in comparison to biblical testimony.  I'll tell you a story about Thor though..

There was a boy I knew who was constantly being tortured by a demonic presence.  He would hear the voices of demons, or perhaps even Satan, saying the most vile and awful things in his mind.  He would be physically tortured by these denoms to the point where he would go into convulsions.  Then one day when it was happening, for some reason, he called upon the name of Thor.  When he did this the demons suddenly disappeared.

This happened a few times, so he decided that Thor must be the true God.  Yet, he figured out later this is exactly what they wanted him to believe.  When the demons saw he was calling on something other than Jesus, they stopped torturing him.  It was only later when he figured this out that he was able to make them leave permanently by calling on the name of the Lord.

In any case, as I was saying to "Death over Life", that Jesus put it on my heart to tell you here that Jesus is calling to you now.  He is calling you to come to Him and know Him personally.  I believe you have sought sincerely, but try one more time.  You will not be disappointed.  God bless.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 10, 2011, 11:18:46 PM
God has completely transformed me from top to bottom.  I am a new creation in Christ.  I used to lie, and cheat, and do all sorts of evil.  God helped me change that.  I find joy in my life, joy in the moment, in knowing Him and knowing His love for me and all mankind.  I find joy in the hope of Christ for all people.

So far you still seem to lie and cheat. You just seem to think it's okay because you have god on your side now. Funny how that seems to work huh?

I'm not following..how did I lie or cheat?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Death over Life on May 10, 2011, 11:19:49 PM
Some things are due to Gods timing.  For instance, I was agnostic for most of my life, when God suddenly revealed Himself to me.  I did not seek Him out, He chose me.  Why, I don't know..but now of course I wish I had heard from Him when I was a kid.  Yet, it's up to Him.

Wait. 2 things.

#1. God chose you, not you chose god? So that means you are admitting god plays favoritism, as to who to save, and who to send to the eternal toaster. And you say this is a god of love? He chooses you, but not us, what gives?

#2. Your scriptures say, seek and you shall find, but also contradicts itself saying that no man is able to seek god.

So, I am doing what the Bible says, and I’m not finding your god in reality. Ironically, in obeying the Bible, I am disobeying the Bible, because I am not able to seek God. So, with the de-coder ring, which is it?

Let me tell you this much, and I know you are telling the truth about what you are saying.  That you have sincerely sought Him. 

Jesus put it on my heart to come here and tell you, and anyone else here who will listen, that if you ask to know Him sincerely, if you pray to Him and ask if He is real, He will reveal Himself to you.  I know He is serious about it so please, try Him once more.  If you seek you will find.  I will spend some time reading the rest of your post and answering it.  God bless.

I’ve given Him infinite amount of chances, he takes none. God will be through with me when I’m dead, even I will forgive him after I’m dead. So, once again, how is this seen as love, because as your faith puts it, when I’m dead I’m damned, yet I’ll be willing to forgive God if he shows up in front of me when I’m dead. How is this tyrant who plays games with his own creation seen as love?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 10, 2011, 11:22:47 PM
I am not a perfect Christian..that would be Christ.  However yes, I do not have many possessions.  I have basically given away all that was ever materially important to me.  I have gone out into the world many times being led by God.  Right now, I am being called to take care of my family which is what I am doing currently. 

The true Christian is the one who follows Christ and obeys His word.  The true church is the body of Christ, of which every Christian is a member.  Personally, I am non-denominational.  I do not put any exclusivity on the body of Christ however.

So then I take it that you've given everything that you have away? I assume that you're using a computer in the public library then right? So you've gone left your family behind?

I'm sure you do because you, of course, are not a liar or a hypocrite. Despite about half of the things you've said so far.

By that, I mean sincerely and not swearing at Him and cursing His name and demanding He do tricks for you.

But he says in the bible that he will perform tricks for us. Are you saying that the bible is a book of lies? Or did you just skip that part? Better question, have you actually read it?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Death over Life on May 10, 2011, 11:23:39 PM

I told you you can know God directly.  He will reveal Himself to you if you ask Him to.  By that, I mean sincerely and not swearing at Him and cursing His name and demanding He do tricks for you.  But just genuinely wanting to know if He is actually real or not.  You seem to have made up your mind, but I am telling you that He will show Himself to you if you ask.

Yes, another lovely piece of advice from someone who knows the mind of God.  If you had any idea how many times I've been told that God will reveal himself to me, you probably wouldn't believe me.  I have made up my mind - I don't believe in supernatural crap.  People don't come back to life, snakes don't talk, humans don't live inside of fish for three days.  These things do not happen, ever.  We know this now, because we have grown out of the mythology of ancient humans, who did not know this.

There is no god, there never was, and there never will be.  Maybe you should go watch Thor, the movie.  It was absolutely awesome!  It made Bible God very, very boring in terms of great fiction.  Seriously.

I did see Thor..I thought it was entertaining, yet it really pales in comparison to biblical testimony.  I'll tell you a story about Thor though..

There was a boy I knew who was constantly being tortured by a demonic presence.  He would hear the voices of demons, or perhaps even Satan, saying the most vile and awful things in his mind.  He would be physically tortured by these denoms to the point where he would go into convulsions.  Then one day when it was happening, for some reason, he called upon the name of Thor.  When he did this the demons suddenly disappeared.

This happened a few times, so he decided that Thor must be the true God.  Yet, he figured out later this is exactly what they wanted him to believe.  When the demons saw he was calling on something other than Jesus, they stopped torturing him.  It was only later when he figured this out that he was able to make them leave permanently by calling on the name of the Lord.

In any case, as I was saying to "Death over Life", that Jesus put it on my heart to tell you here that Jesus is calling to you now.  He is calling you to come to Him and know Him personally.  I believe you have sought sincerely, but try one more time.  You will not be disappointed.  God bless.

You know, I've heard Ahura Mazda and Allah do the exact same things. I've also heard of an entity named Sophia at one time answer prayers when the Christian god could not. Maybe perhaps Sophia is the true goddess instead?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Tinyal on May 10, 2011, 11:24:29 PM
SoG, are you intentionally a bit dense, or simply reading challenged?  God said all it would take is faith as much as a mustard seed and one could move mountains.....are you saying no one, ever - not a single amputee, ever had as much as a mustard seed of faith?? 

Why is it religious people only claim god does miracles in 3rd world countries where there is no knowledge of science, no cameras, no scientists??  He had no problem doing (apparently) miracles in the past for all to see.

Lastly, you know nothing - nada, zip - of and about the people here on this forum.  Many of us spent years, decades of our lives as dedicated, knowledgeable, praying christians - and we got nothing, nothing but illusion, untruths, and delusions...

How about you stop preaching stuff from the bible and tell us what convinced you - what evidence you have - that god is real?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Death over Life on May 10, 2011, 11:27:09 PM
I am not a perfect Christian..that would be Christ.  However yes, I do not have many possessions.  I have basically given away all that was ever materially important to me.  I have gone out into the world many times being led by God.  Right now, I am being called to take care of my family which is what I am doing currently. 

This is what Alzael is talking about when He called you a liar and a hypocrite.

Luke 14:25-27 (King James Version)

 25And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,

 26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

 27And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

It is not in the plan of God/Christ to love and take care of your family. Since you love your family, and your life, you can not be Christ's disciple. That is from the words of Yeshua HIMSELF, not me. This is the God you claim to serve, but you aren't following His' words. So, who are you really following?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Azdgari on May 10, 2011, 11:27:19 PM
Quote from: Azdgari
It is the Bible and its stories themselves which are in need of verification, SoG.  This website's question is one way of verifying them.  And they fail the test, when put to it.

Why would a real god choose to fail such a test, when it could succeed?

They are verified by God Himself.  That was my point above that, if you actually tried to know Jesus, you would see that.   The bible perfectly describes not only what is happening on Earth now, but also how to obtain salvation and know God.

We only know God by natural and special revelation.  Natural revelation is that God has made His appearance plain, that His eternal attributes are apparent from the things He has made.  Special revelation is when God comes to you personally.  Everyone can know God in this way if they ask to.

None of what you wrote addresses what I wrote.  Pretending to address to my words, while not actually addressing my words, is misleading and dishonest.

Why are you behaving in this manner?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 10, 2011, 11:29:47 PM
Wait. 2 things.

#1. God chose you, not you chose god? So that means you are admitting god plays favoritism, as to who to save, and who to send to the eternal toaster. And you say this is a god of love? He chooses you, but not us, what gives?

Some people are elect, in that God chose them before the foundation of the world.  Meaning, God knew me, knew that He would create me before He even made the world.  The apostles were an example of this.  So, my life has always been predestined.  This isn't the case with everyone.

#2. Your scriptures say, seek and you shall find, but also contradicts itself saying that no man is able to seek god.

So, I am doing what the Bible says, and I’m not finding your god in reality. Ironically, in obeying the Bible, I am disobeying the Bible, because I am not able to seek God. So, with the de-coder ring, which is it?

The bible says that no man can find God because no one is righteous.  This is why God made a provision for us through His Son.  Christ is the mediator between man and God.

Let me tell you this much, and I know you are telling the truth about what you are saying.  That you have sincerely sought Him. 

Jesus put it on my heart to come here and tell you, and anyone else here who will listen, that if you ask to know Him sincerely, if you pray to Him and ask if He is real, He will reveal Himself to you.  I know He is serious about it so please, try Him once more.  If you seek you will find.  I will spend some time reading the rest of your post and answering it.  God bless.

I’ve given Him infinite amount of chances, he takes none. God will be through with me when I’m dead, even I will forgive him after I’m dead. So, once again, how is this seen as love, because as your faith puts it, when I’m dead I’m damned, yet I’ll be willing to forgive God if he shows up in front of me when I’m dead. How is this tyrant who plays games with his own creation seen as love?

I only know what God put on my heart and that its trustworthy.  On your part though, if you're saying that you honestly seek God..why do you spend your time hanging around here cursing God?  That isn't how to find Him.  Railing against Him isn't going to get you anywhere.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Alzael on May 10, 2011, 11:30:24 PM
I am not a perfect Christian..that would be Christ.  However yes, I do not have many possessions.  I have basically given away all that was ever materially important to me.  I have gone out into the world many times being led by God.  Right now, I am being called to take care of my family which is what I am doing currently. 

This is not what Jesus would tell you to do though. So it's, in effect, another dishonest statement from you. If you truly followed Jesus you would have left them behind completely and would treat them with hatred and despise. As well as you still have your possessions (however few), this is also not something someone who truly followed his words would do. So we have another instance to add to the list.

In case you were wondering about your previous lies. We can start with this below and move on from there.

In the moral choice thread you claimed that god was unchanging. As I pointed out, this is either a lie on your part or utter ignorance on your part in regards to anything the bible says or anything that happens in it. Actually scratch that, I left out the possibility of you just not being smart as well.

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 10, 2011, 11:32:57 PM
I am not a perfect Christian..that would be Christ.  However yes, I do not have many possessions.  I have basically given away all that was ever materially important to me.  I have gone out into the world many times being led by God.  Right now, I am being called to take care of my family which is what I am doing currently. 

This is what Alzael is talking about when He called you a liar and a hypocrite.

Luke 14:25-27 (King James Version)

 25And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,

 26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

 27And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

It is not in the plan of God/Christ to love and take care of your family. Since you love your family, and your life, you can not be Christ's disciple. That is from the words of Yeshua HIMSELF, not me. This is the God you claim to serve, but you aren't following His' words. So, who are you really following?

The greatest commandments are these:

Love the Lord thy God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind and all your strength

Love your neighbor as yourself

What I mean about taking care of my family is this..I am here to witness to them.  My mother is an agnostic, my sister an atheist, my brother an atheist and my father is an atheist.  Currently, I have been called to witness to them.  After this, I will go where He calls me next.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Death over Life on May 10, 2011, 11:33:28 PM
I only know what God put on my heart and that its trustworthy.  On your part though, if you're saying that you honestly seek God..why do you spend your time hanging around here cursing God?  That isn't how to find Him.  Railing against Him isn't going to get you anywhere.

Because blasphemy was good enough for Jesus Christ, and blasphemy was good enough for Paul, so blasphemy is good enough for me.

Btw, tell that to Paul of Tarsus. He would get a good laugh out of that.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 10, 2011, 11:35:49 PM
I am not a perfect Christian..that would be Christ.  However yes, I do not have many possessions.  I have basically given away all that was ever materially important to me.  I have gone out into the world many times being led by God.  Right now, I am being called to take care of my family which is what I am doing currently. 

This is not what Jesus would tell you to do though. So it's, in effect, another dishonest statement from you. If you truly followed Jesus you would have left them behind completely and would treat them with hatred and despise. As well as you still have your possessions (however few), this is also not something someone who truly followed his words would do. So we have another instance to add to the list.

In case you were wondering about your previous lies. We can start with this below and move on from there.

In the moral choice thread you claimed that god was unchanging. As I pointed out, this is either a lie on your part or utter ignorance on your part in regards to anything the bible says or anything that happens in it. Actually scratch that, I left out the possibility of you just not being smart as well.

What I mean about taking care of my family is this..I am here to witness to them.  My mother is an agnostic, my sister an atheist, my brother an atheist and my father is an atheist.  Currently, I have been called to witness to them.  After this, I will go where He calls me next.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Death over Life on May 10, 2011, 11:36:34 PM
I am not a perfect Christian..that would be Christ.  However yes, I do not have many possessions.  I have basically given away all that was ever materially important to me.  I have gone out into the world many times being led by God.  Right now, I am being called to take care of my family which is what I am doing currently. 

This is what Alzael is talking about when He called you a liar and a hypocrite.

Luke 14:25-27 (King James Version)

 25And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,

 26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

 27And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

It is not in the plan of God/Christ to love and take care of your family. Since you love your family, and your life, you can not be Christ's disciple. That is from the words of Yeshua HIMSELF, not me. This is the God you claim to serve, but you aren't following His' words. So, who are you really following?

The greatest commandments are these:

Love the Lord thy God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind and all your strength

Love your neighbor as yourself

What I mean about taking care of my family is this..I am here to witness to them.  My mother is an agnostic, my sister an atheist, my brother an atheist and my father is an atheist.  Currently, I have been called to witness to them.  After this, I will go where He calls me next.

Once again, Alzael is correct, you should be hating your family, and yourself. Please stop contradicting yourself.

The Scriptures say not to cast your pearls before swines, and since your Bible calls us infidels, why are you casting your pearls before swines?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 10, 2011, 11:36:40 PM
I only know what God put on my heart and that its trustworthy.  On your part though, if you're saying that you honestly seek God..why do you spend your time hanging around here cursing God?  That isn't how to find Him.  Railing against Him isn't going to get you anywhere.

Because blasphemy was good enough for Jesus Christ, and blasphemy was good enough for Paul, so blasphemy is good enough for me.

Btw, tell that to Paul of Tarsus. He would get a good laugh out of that.

None of them ever cursed God, they cursed the hypocrites who claimed to serve God will keeping the truth from the people.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Alzael on May 10, 2011, 11:38:24 PM

Why are you behaving in this manner?

Possibilities:

1)He's really bored and has no life.

2)Massive cranial intrusion by a spiked object.

3)Heavy doses of drugs consumed by his mother during pregnancy.

4)Mentally Unbalanced

5)Hopelessly deluded from the brainwashing.

6)Just not that bright.

7)Extremely poor education.

The greatest commandments are these:

Love the Lord thy God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind and all your strength

Love your neighbor as yourself

What I mean about taking care of my family is this..I am here to witness to them.  My mother is an agnostic, my sister an atheist, my brother an atheist and my father is an atheist.  Currently, I have been called to witness to them.  After this, I will go where He calls me next.

So you're not actually caring for them, you're preaching to them. You essentially lied once again.

I notice that you're being very selective about which verses you choose to believe are true.

Here's a simple question. Do you hate your family as Jesus tells you to?

And don't bother trying to say that the ones above are the greatest commandments. Because that's another lie. You're making that up to justify yourself and it's rather pathetic. There is nothing that places these as the greatest commandments. So to say otherwise is an outright falsehood. Can you make one post honestly?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 10, 2011, 11:40:05 PM
I am not a perfect Christian..that would be Christ.  However yes, I do not have many possessions.  I have basically given away all that was ever materially important to me.  I have gone out into the world many times being led by God.  Right now, I am being called to take care of my family which is what I am doing currently. 

This is what Alzael is talking about when He called you a liar and a hypocrite.

Luke 14:25-27 (King James Version)

 25And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,

 26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

 27And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

It is not in the plan of God/Christ to love and take care of your family. Since you love your family, and your life, you can not be Christ's disciple. That is from the words of Yeshua HIMSELF, not me. This is the God you claim to serve, but you aren't following His' words. So, who are you really following?

The greatest commandments are these:

Love the Lord thy God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind and all your strength

Love your neighbor as yourself

What I mean about taking care of my family is this..I am here to witness to them.  My mother is an agnostic, my sister an atheist, my brother an atheist and my father is an atheist.  Currently, I have been called to witness to them.  After this, I will go where He calls me next.

Once again, Alzael is correct, you should be hating your family, and yourself. Please stop contradicting yourself.

The Scriptures say not to cast your pearls before swines, and since your Bible calls us infidels, why are you casting your pearls before swines?

Actually, you are incorrect.  Christ uses the greek word "miseo" in that passage, the meaning is to love less than.  It is saying to put the Lord above your family.  The bible says anyone who loves his mother or father more than me is not worthy of me.  This is the true meaning of that passage.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Persephone on May 10, 2011, 11:40:32 PM
Some people are elect, in that God chose them before the foundation of the world.  Meaning, God knew me, knew that He would create me before He even made the world.  The apostles were an example of this.  So, my life has always been predestined.  This isn't the case with everyone.
Oh, wait. This is too good to be true. A cookie just fell into my lap. God must have known I was hungry.

Did you really just say that god chooses some but not others? Do you know what "justice" means, don't you?

For your edification I'll share with you some definitions of the word, bolding mine. Please notice the words impartial, fair, and conformity to fact, especially in connection with "the assignment of merited rewards or punishments".

 JUSTICE

1  the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments

2  the quality of being just, impartial, or fair

conformity to fact, or reason : correctness
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 10, 2011, 11:41:22 PM

Why are you behaving in this manner?

Possibilities:

1)He's really bored and has no life.

2)Massive cranial intrusion by a spiked object.

3)Heavy doses of drugs consumed by his mother during pregnancy.

4)Mentally Unbalanced

5)Hopelessly deluded from the brainwashing.

6)Just not that bright.

7)Extremely poor education.

The greatest commandments are these:

Love the Lord thy God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind and all your strength

Love your neighbor as yourself

What I mean about taking care of my family is this..I am here to witness to them.  My mother is an agnostic, my sister an atheist, my brother an atheist and my father is an atheist.  Currently, I have been called to witness to them.  After this, I will go where He calls me next.

So you're not actually caring for them, you're preaching to them. You essentially lied once again.

I notice that you're being very selective about which verses you choose to believe are true.

It's a little bit of both, Az, but the true meaning of my presence here is to bring them to the Lord.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Death over Life on May 10, 2011, 11:43:34 PM
I am not a perfect Christian..that would be Christ.  However yes, I do not have many possessions.  I have basically given away all that was ever materially important to me.  I have gone out into the world many times being led by God.  Right now, I am being called to take care of my family which is what I am doing currently. 

This is what Alzael is talking about when He called you a liar and a hypocrite.

Luke 14:25-27 (King James Version)

 25And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,

 26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

 27And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

It is not in the plan of God/Christ to love and take care of your family. Since you love your family, and your life, you can not be Christ's disciple. That is from the words of Yeshua HIMSELF, not me. This is the God you claim to serve, but you aren't following His' words. So, who are you really following?

The greatest commandments are these:

Love the Lord thy God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind and all your strength

Love your neighbor as yourself

What I mean about taking care of my family is this..I am here to witness to them.  My mother is an agnostic, my sister an atheist, my brother an atheist and my father is an atheist.  Currently, I have been called to witness to them.  After this, I will go where He calls me next.

Once again, Alzael is correct, you should be hating your family, and yourself. Please stop contradicting yourself.

The Scriptures say not to cast your pearls before swines, and since your Bible calls us infidels, why are you casting your pearls before swines?

Actually, you are incorrect.  Christ uses the greek word "miseo" in that passage, the meaning is to love less than.  It is saying to put the Lord above your family.  The bible says anyone who loves his mother or father more than me is not worthy of me.  This is the true meaning of that passage.

And you have forgotten Christ came not to bring peace but a sword! So, it really doesn't make a difference here.

One other thing:

I only know what God put on my heart and that its trustworthy.  On your part though, if you're saying that you honestly seek God..why do you spend your time hanging around here cursing God?  That isn't how to find Him.  Railing against Him isn't going to get you anywhere.

Because blasphemy was good enough for Jesus Christ, and blasphemy was good enough for Paul, so blasphemy is good enough for me.

Btw, tell that to Paul of Tarsus. He would get a good laugh out of that.

None of them ever cursed God, they cursed the hypocrites who claimed to serve God will keeping the truth from the people.

Oh the irony!
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 10, 2011, 11:43:48 PM
Some people are elect, in that God chose them before the foundation of the world.  Meaning, God knew me, knew that He would create me before He even made the world.  The apostles were an example of this.  So, my life has always been predestined.  This isn't the case with everyone.
Oh, wait. This is too good to be true. A cookie just fell into my lap. God must have known I was hungry.

Did you really just say that god chooses some but not others? Do you know what "justice" means, don't you?

For your edification I'll share with you some definitions of the word, bolding mine. Please notice the words impartial, fair, and conformity to fact, especially in connection with "the assignment of merited rewards or punishments".

 JUSTICE

1  the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments

2  the quality of being just, impartial, or fair

conformity to fact, or reason : correctness

Not everyone is elected, but anyone can be saved.  The only beings who have been judged already are the devil and his angels. 
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 10, 2011, 11:47:22 PM
I am not a perfect Christian..that would be Christ.  However yes, I do not have many possessions.  I have basically given away all that was ever materially important to me.  I have gone out into the world many times being led by God.  Right now, I am being called to take care of my family which is what I am doing currently. 

This is what Alzael is talking about when He called you a liar and a hypocrite.

Luke 14:25-27 (King James Version)

 25And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,

 26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

 27And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

It is not in the plan of God/Christ to love and take care of your family. Since you love your family, and your life, you can not be Christ's disciple. That is from the words of Yeshua HIMSELF, not me. This is the God you claim to serve, but you aren't following His' words. So, who are you really following?

The greatest commandments are these:

Love the Lord thy God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind and all your strength

Love your neighbor as yourself

What I mean about taking care of my family is this..I am here to witness to them.  My mother is an agnostic, my sister an atheist, my brother an atheist and my father is an atheist.  Currently, I have been called to witness to them.  After this, I will go where He calls me next.

Once again, Alzael is correct, you should be hating your family, and yourself. Please stop contradicting yourself.

The Scriptures say not to cast your pearls before swines, and since your Bible calls us infidels, why are you casting your pearls before swines?

Actually, you are incorrect.  Christ uses the greek word "miseo" in that passage, the meaning is to love less than.  It is saying to put the Lord above your family.  The bible says anyone who loves his mother or father more than me is not worthy of me.  This is the true meaning of that passage.

And you have forgotten Christ came not to bring peace but a sword! So, it really doesn't make a difference here.

One other thing:

I only know what God put on my heart and that its trustworthy.  On your part though, if you're saying that you honestly seek God..why do you spend your time hanging around here cursing God?  That isn't how to find Him.  Railing against Him isn't going to get you anywhere.

Because blasphemy was good enough for Jesus Christ, and blasphemy was good enough for Paul, so blasphemy is good enough for me.

Btw, tell that to Paul of Tarsus. He would get a good laugh out of that.

None of them ever cursed God, they cursed the hypocrites who claimed to serve God will keeping the truth from the people.

Oh the irony!

I have not held back the truth, which is this:

You can know Christ, personally, today, by calling upon His in prayer and asking Him to reveal Himself to you. 
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Alzael on May 10, 2011, 11:48:15 PM

It's a little bit of both, Az, but the true meaning of my presence here is to bring them to the Lord.

Then you aren't following the words of god, are you? You see you can't claim it both ways. You can't follow the laws of Jesus when you want to only and then call others hypocrites. If you were a true servant of Jesus you would hate them, you would separate yourself from them. You are a liar. Plain and simple and you compound the lies with every post you make.

Actually, you are incorrect.  Christ uses the greek word "miseo" in that passage, the meaning is to love less than.  It is saying to put the Lord above your family.  The bible says anyone who loves his mother or father more than me is not worthy of me.  This is the true meaning of that passage.

No, it doesn't. Again you're showing the lack of your education. This is a common Christian lie. In no translation of greek does miseo EVER mean 'to love less than'. It means to hate. Plain and simple. Check greek dictionaries and translations. Outside of Christian apologists you will not find anywhere that claims that. It has absolutely no basis in reality. Miseo is where the prefix 'mis' comes from in english. The prefix 'mis' means 'to hate'. It does not mean 'love less than'.

You are either still a liar, or still have no knowledge of what you are talking about. Which is it? Feel free to research the word yourself if you want.

Basically, you FAIL EPICALLY.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 10, 2011, 11:57:55 PM

It's a little bit of both, Az, but the true meaning of my presence here is to bring them to the Lord.

Then you aren't following the words of god, are you? You see you can't claim it both ways. You can't follow the laws of Jesus when you want to only and then call others hypocrites. If you were a true servant of Jesus you would hate them, you would separate yourself from them. You are a liar. Plain and simple and you compound the lies with every post you make.

Actually, you are incorrect.  Christ uses the greek word "miseo" in that passage, the meaning is to love less than.  It is saying to put the Lord above your family.  The bible says anyone who loves his mother or father more than me is not worthy of me.  This is the true meaning of that passage.

No, it doesn't. Again you're showing the lack of your education. This is a common Christian lie. In no translation of greek does miseo EVER mean 'to love less than'. It means to hate. Plain and simple. Check greek dictionaries and translations. Outside of Christian apologists you will not find anywhere that claims that. It has absolutely no basis in reality. Miseo is where the prefix 'mis' comes from in english. The prefix 'mis' means 'to hate'. It does not mean 'love less than'.

You are either still a liar, or still have no knowledge of what you are talking about. Which is it? Feel free to research the word yourself if you want.

Basically, you FAIL EPICALLY.

First of all, you would be wrong in any case.  To hate your mother or father would violate the second greatest commandment, which is what all the law and the prophets hang on.  That is to love your neighbor as yourself.  This isn't what Christ was teaching.  He said plainly anyone who loves his mother and father more than me can't be my disciple.  This is the meaning of the passage.  To put the Lord first. 

I am not a scholar of languages, I couldn't really go into the entymology of this particular word.  You can look at this literally if you wish, but the bible often engages in parables and metaphorical language.  This was not a condemnation of the family, it was a reminder that God comes first.  It would be difficult for an unbeliever to see the correct context in any case. 
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Alzael on May 11, 2011, 12:06:23 AM

First of all, you would be wrong in any case.  To hate your mother or father would violate the second greatest commandment, which is what all the law and the prophets hang on.  That is to love your brother as yourself.  This isn't what Christ was teaching.  He said plainly anyone who loves his mother and father more than me can't be my disciple.  This is the meaning of the passage.  To put the Lord first.

This is another lie. You have to have some actual justification for the things that you say. It is not the 'second greatest commandment' because you say it is. You have to back that up. The same with what you say about the passage. If you can't actually back it up (which apparently you can't) then to make such a claim is dishonest. The law and the prophets do not all hang on love being one of the greatest commandments. At no point is love everyone really that big a deal.

If you want to actually argue such a point, then back it up and support it. But if all you can do is make an unsupported claim then the fact remains that you are still being dishonest.

I am not a scholar of languages, I couldn't really go into the entymology of this particular word.

You just did go into it. Then you got smacked down, and now you're trying to back out.


You can look at this literally if you wish, but the bible often engages in parables and metaphorical language.

Yes it does, but how do you that this is one of those cases? The fact is that you don't. You're simply trying to make it seem like this is one of those cases because it's the only horse you've got to ride.


This was not a condemnation of the family, it was a reminder that God comes first.  It would be difficult for an unbeliever to see the correct context in any case.

Completely unsupported assertion. You have nothing to back it up. You are simply making a claim to cower behind. Still an epic fail, and a spectacularly pitiful one at that.

I want you to imagine something. I want you to imagine a world where you actually had to live as an honest human being and couldn't continually lie and misrepresent things like this. Try living in that world for a few minutes, you might be surprised what it does for you.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: 12 Monkeys on May 11, 2011, 12:12:27 AM
God has completely transformed me from top to bottom.  I am a new creation in Christ.  I used to lie, and cheat, and do all sorts of evil.  God helped me change that.  I find joy in my life, joy in the moment, in knowing Him and knowing His love for me and all mankind.  I find joy in the hope of Christ for all people.

My life before, where I felt consigned to a meaningless fate, was what was truly sad.  To be a prisoner of your own sins is more than sad, it is heartbreaking.  That is why I am telling you that He loves you, and will show Himself to you if you come to Him wanting to know Him.

I think if an amputee was healed it might make the news.  The reason I don't think God would heal an amputee is because He does not exist.  There is no proof whatso ever for any kind of God.  You live in an imaginary world of sky daddies and make believe.  Pretty sad way to live a life.
Stick your preaching up your ASS....wont be to long before your on to your next addiction when this one stops working for you.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: mram on May 11, 2011, 12:16:06 AM
Servant let me tell you a little story of an alcoholic.. Me.. Years ago I was chronic and I would sell the TV, VCR, Stereo, not pay rent, electric bill, water bill, gas bill...basically anything to buy booze for that day and I paid a horrible price for it. I BEGGED your imaginary god to help me stop, but nothing.. I went to AA meetings where they told me to get in touch with my "higher power" aka God aka ORANGES and still nothing.. I was a plain stupid fucking drunk and nothing was going to change it..not even gawd..
Well, one day month while I was at work at a temp agency I had a HORRID toothache and god did nothing to stop it, but a friend of mine had the power of god in his shirt pocket to stop the pain.. Heroin..
Before I knew it I was a heroin addict which was OK by me at the time because it stopped the pain, but it had another nice side effect..It got me to stop drinking because as most heroin addicts will tell you alcohol taste like crap when you're shooting dope..
Well, fast forward about 20 years give or take a few I had been in methadone treatment for a few years and still not drinking then one day I found a case of beer in a dumpster. It wasn't dirty of anything.. It was just sitting on top of a nice clean piece of cardboard so I took it home and that night I got good and smashed up drunk on a mere 6 of those beers..
That was the last time I got drunk because for four days I had the worse hangover I ever experienced.. I even asked god to kill me to end it, but still nothing.. That hangover lasted 4 full days before I was able to function again, but I give the ONLY credit for getting me to stop drinking to heroin.. God did utterly NOTHING to get me to quit drinking and NOTHING to get me to stop shooting heroin.. I stopped shooting heroin after almost 10 years in methadone treatment then finally deciding enough was enough..
I've been completely off methadone now since January and haven't stuck a needle in my arm since 2001 and have been drunk only once since 2004, the day of that 4 day hangover..
Now perhaps you'll tell me god made me a heroin addict for a reason, but that would just have to be the weakest excuse for a god I could possibly imagine.. But hey.. God bless heroin, huh?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 11, 2011, 12:22:12 AM
This is another lie. You have to have some actual justification for the things that you say. It is not the 'second greatest commandment' because you say it is. You have to back that up. The same with what you say about the passage. If you can't actually back it up (which apparently you can't) then to make such a claim is dishonest. The law and the prophets do not all hang on love being one of the greatest commandments. At no point is love everyone really that big a deal.

If you want to actually argue such a point, then back it up and support it. But if all you can do is make an unsupported claim then the fact remains that you are still being dishonest.

Matthew 22:37-40

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Here is another passage speaking of the importance of love.  One of the most beautiful verses in the entire bible:

 1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

You just did go into it. Then you got smacked down, and now you're trying to back out.

I freely admit you may know more about the entymology of this word than I do.  However, I know your interpertation is not accurate.  The bible tells us this specifically:

John 4:20

If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: 12 Monkeys on May 11, 2011, 12:23:32 AM
Bring on the BanHammer
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: mram on May 11, 2011, 12:27:55 AM
I think we need nuclear weapons to use against this guy.  ;D
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Astreja on May 11, 2011, 12:30:14 AM
"4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. {emphases Mine}

Well, so much for that myth of the hell-creating, final-judging, knickers-in-a-twist Judeo-Christian god being "loving"...

I think we need nuclear weapons to use against this guy.  ;D

(reaches for Her Clue-by-Four™) I'll handle this, folks.

*BONK*

Servantofgod, that's for dissing My little brother Thor.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: mram on May 11, 2011, 12:32:54 AM
I guess you missed that part earlier about us "militant atheists" wanting nuclear weapons to use against them good christins, eh?  :D
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 11, 2011, 12:34:57 AM
As a former heroin addict myself, I can understand how difficult it was to quit.  Congratulations on beating it.  It is truly a vicious beast.  I managed to get on and off it in under a year so my experience was not as trying as yours.  Where was God in all of that?  Well, in my experience God is always working around our issues.  Sometimes He will confront us directly with them, sometimes He will work in the background in ways that are far less obvious.  I wasn't a Christian at the time so I couldn't give you a God got me off heroin story. 

I quit because it had ruined my life and I didn't like what I had become.  However, I know God did support my decision to quit.  He had sent many people to many witness to me while I was on the street, who offered me food clothes and shelter but I didn't take them up on any of it.  I walked away from every opportunity God gave me to change my situation.  Looking back though, it was obvious he was trying to help me. 

Even mother teresa didn't hear from God for a period of over 40 years.  I don't know anything about Gods timing.  I just know it's always perfect.  I doubt God would lead you from one addiction to another..perhaps to save your life, but God does no evil..and doing heroin would be a sin because its illegal. 

In any case, this is the reason I am here.  Jesus put it on my heart to come here and tell anyone who will listen that He will reveal Himself to anyone who calls upon His name in sincere prayer, to have a relationship with Him.  He gave me this word specifically:

Matthew 11:28

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

So call out to Him and He will come.  I don't know anything about before, I just know now is the time.  God bless. 

Servant let me tell you a little story of an alcoholic.. Me.. Years ago I was chronic and I would sell the TV, VCR, Stereo, not pay rent, electric bill, water bill, gas bill...basically anything to buy booze for that day and I paid a horrible price for it. I BEGGED your imaginary god to help me stop, but nothing.. I went to AA meetings where they told me to get in touch with my "higher power" aka God aka ORANGES and still nothing.. I was a plain stupid fucking drunk and nothing was going to change it..not even gawd..
Well, one day month while I was at work at a temp agency I had a HORRID toothache and god did nothing to stop it, but a friend of mine had the power of god in his shirt pocket to stop the pain.. Heroin..
Before I knew it I was a heroin addict which was OK by me at the time because it stopped the pain, but it had another nice side effect..It got me to stop drinking because as most heroin addicts will tell you alcohol taste like crap when you're shooting dope..
Well, fast forward about 20 years give or take a few I had been in methadone treatment for a few years and still not drinking then one day I found a case of beer in a dumpster. It wasn't dirty of anything.. It was just sitting on top of a nice clean piece of cardboard so I took it home and that night I got good and smashed up drunk on a mere 6 of those beers..
That was the last time I got drunk because for four days I had the worse hangover I ever experienced.. I even asked god to kill me to end it, but still nothing.. That hangover lasted 4 full days before I was able to function again, but I give the ONLY credit for getting me to stop drinking to heroin.. God did utterly NOTHING to get me to quit drinking and NOTHING to get me to stop shooting heroin.. I stopped shooting heroin after almost 10 years in methadone treatment then finally deciding enough was enough..
I've been completely off methadone now since January and haven't stuck a needle in my arm since 2001 and have been drunk only once since 2004, the day of that 4 day hangover..
Now perhaps you'll tell me god made me a heroin addict for a reason, but that would just have to be the weakest excuse for a god I could possibly imagine.. But hey.. God bless heroin, huh?

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Alzael on May 11, 2011, 12:37:01 AM

Matthew 22:37-40

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Here is another passage speaking of the importance of love.  One of the most beautiful verses in the entire bible:

 1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

So you've got nothing then? Two verses in the bible does nothing to back up the claim that this is the greatest commandment. You need to have something more substantial, like an actual commandment that says that it is this. All you have done is quote verses where god talks about loving people. This does not back up your claim in anyway.

Let me put this in simple biblical terms so that it can be grasped by someone like you.

Off the top of my head I can think of twelve bible verses which talk about love. I can also think of 18 that command holy war, 13 that command rape, and 12 for slavery. Since these are more prevalent then it would seem that these are the greatest commandments. At least using the piss-poor argument that you're awkwardly trying to use here.

Still fail.

I freely admit you may know more about the entymology of this word than I do.  However, I know your interpertation is not accurate.  The bible tells us this specifically:

John 4:20

If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.

I think it's pretty safe to say that I know more about everything than you do. From the moment you got here you haven't said anything that had any basis in fact of any kind. Even when you weren't explicitly talking about the bible you've been absolutely ignorant and wrong.

This does not show an inaccurate interpretation. It shows that the bible contrdicts itself. You have to actually show how the interpretation is inaccurate, not just point to another verse that says something different. Unless you can actually invalidate the interpretation the point remains. This just further cements your status as intellectually crippled.

I think we need nuclear weapons to use against this guy.  ;D

Nah, Jetson and I decided to let the little dancing monkey amuse us for a while. It's not often to get one who's reached this level of mental degeneration. I've had my snark levels set too low lately. It's nice to have a nice obvious idiot I don't have to bother dealing with like he might possibly actually have something worthwhile to say.

Enjoy the stupid while it lasts guys. We won't see this level again for quite some time.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Astreja on May 11, 2011, 12:37:41 AM
So call out to Him and He will come.

How does one distinguish between a real Jesus and an imagined one?  Neither one seems to be healing any amputees.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Alzael on May 11, 2011, 12:43:36 AM
So call out to Him and He will come.

How does one distinguish between a real Jesus and an imagined one?  Neither one seems to be healing any amputees.

It apparently helps if you labotomize yourself.

Edit:I'm off to bed now. I'll leave you guys to play with the new toy for a while. Just don't break him yet. He's very fragile.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: mram on May 11, 2011, 12:48:22 AM
Gods timing is perfect?  :o You mean like that perfect timing for WWII? Or how about those poor people last month who could have gotten in a car and driven to another part of town, but got delayed for whatever reason and JUST happen to be in the path of a killer tornado? GREAT timing there god..
How about the time I had a car sold on a Sunday night, but couldn't find a notary public so the guy was going to come back on Monday, but GOD pushed a tree over on my car after he left? Great timing!

Thanks god. I had to catch the bus for a reason....I guess.. &)
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 11, 2011, 01:00:04 AM
So you've got nothing then? Two verses in the bible does nothing to back up the claim that
this is the greatest commandment. You need to have something more substantial, like an actual commandment that says that it is this. All you have done is quote verses where god talks about loving people. This does not back up your claim in anyway.

Let me put this in simple biblical terms so that it can be grasped by someone like you.

Off the top of my head I can think of twelve bible verses which talk about love. I can also think of 18 that command holy war, 13 that command rape, and 12 for slavery. Since these are more prevalent then it would seem that these are the greatest commandments. At least using the piss-poor argument that you're awkwardly trying to use here.

Still fail.

I simply provided the proof you asked for when you stated that love wasn't important nor was it the greatest commandment. Now you you have changed your tune and are now asking for additional proof where before you simply stated it didn't exist at all.  The passage about the greatest commandment appears only once.  The meaning of a verse is not increased by its duplication.  It simply is the greatest commandment, once or one thousand times.  Here are some further passages stressing the importance of love:

John 13:34-35

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Matthew 5:43-48,

You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Luke 6:27-36

“But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

   32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

I think it's pretty safe to say that I know more about everything than you do. From the moment you got here you haven't said anything that had any basis in fact of any kind. Even when you weren't explicitly talking about the bible you've been absolutely ignorant and wrong.

This does not show an inaccurate interpretation. It shows that the bible contrdicts itself. You have to actually show how the interpretation is inaccurate, not just point to another verse that says something different. Unless you can actually invalidate the interpretation the point remains. This just further cements your status as intellectually crippled.

Even if you knew everything about every subject in the world, it would be for nothing, because you don't know God.  Here is your problem:

1 Corinthians 2:14

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 11, 2011, 01:04:32 AM
So call out to Him and He will come.

How does one distinguish between a real Jesus and an imagined one?  Neither one seems to be healing any amputees.

You know Him.  Believe me, if Jesus comes to you you won't be wondering if it was real or not.  His sheep know His voice.  He has set it on me to tell you that He will prove it to you.  Pray like this:  Jesus, if you're real, I want to know about it.  I want to know you.  Please let me know you're real.  God bless.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: mram on May 11, 2011, 01:07:20 AM
Since god is in the business of healing amputees can you please issue a prayer for me to grow back some teeth? This time I'd like some big sharp lion type teeth or maybe razor sharp shark type teeth.. I have a few people who asked me to bite their legs off..  &) OH! And my former shop teacher got his middle finger cut off.. I'm sure he still wants to flip me the bird..
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 11, 2011, 01:09:45 AM
Gods timing is perfect?  :o You mean like that perfect timing for WWII? Or how about those poor people last month who could have gotten in a car and driven to another part of town, but got delayed for whatever reason and JUST happen to be in the path of a killer tornado? GREAT timing there god..
How about the time I had a car sold on a Sunday night, but couldn't find a notary public so the guy was going to come back on Monday, but GOD pushed a tree over on my car after he left? Great timing!

Thanks god. I had to catch the bus for a reason....I guess.. &)

No one dies before his time and there are no guarantees on our life.  Today is the best you can hope for.  When God demands your life back from you, there is nothing you can do to avoid it.  This is why today is the day to know Jesus Christ.  It's the second death which is permanent..but Gods gift is eternal life.   
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 11, 2011, 01:11:52 AM
Since god is in the business of healing amputees can you please issue a prayer for me to grow back some teeth? This time I'd like some big sharp lion type teeth or maybe razor sharp shark type teeth.. I have a few people who asked me to bite their legs off..  &) OH! And my former shop teacher got his middle finger cut off.. I'm sure he still wants to flip me the bird..

lol..I need some teeth too.  Shark teeth would be great because they're infinitely regenerating. :)  And if your shop teacher is really determined, tell him to toss you a turkey. :p
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: mram on May 11, 2011, 01:29:36 AM
Since god is in the business of healing amputees can you please issue a prayer for me to grow back some teeth? This time I'd like some big sharp lion type teeth or maybe razor sharp shark type teeth.. I have a few people who asked me to bite their legs off..  &) OH! And my former shop teacher got his middle finger cut off.. I'm sure he still wants to flip me the bird..

lol..I need some teeth too.  Shark teeth would be great because they're infinitely regenerating. :)  And if your shop teacher is really determined, tell him to toss you a turkey. :p
I have to tell ya.. If I don't wake up tomorrow morning with a brand new set of teeth in my head I'm probably not going to run straight off to church on Sunday..
I do, however pray all these good Texas Christians will be turned into gold statues for me so I can take them off to the "we buy broken gold" store down the street to make some quick cash.. I keep checking the sidewalks out front, but so far god is really letting me down on this, BUT if I do walk out there tomorrow and find about 9 150 lb gold statues out there I'm DEFINITELY heading to church! ...after I go to the bank.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: mram on May 11, 2011, 01:39:10 AM
You DO realize these good moral atheists here are making you look... uhmmmm.. I hate to use the word stupid, but nothing else really comes to mind..
Stick around long enough and you might get a new lease on life.. Your current slumlord is corrupting your head..  &)
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: hickdive on May 11, 2011, 02:30:41 AM
Just to go back to your OP.

Please provide evidence that god does heal amputees.

You've made a positive claim, it is for you to provide evidence in support of that claim.

So far you've done a lot of preaching but not provided any evidence. It is irrelevant to suggest that we do not know every amputee, instead you must cite one extra-biblical* and verifiable account of amputee healing and by that we mean restoration of the amputated part of the body, not provision of a prosthetic or other non-flesh and blood 'healing'.

Furthermore, the healing you cite must be unequivocally attributable to the Judeo-Christian god and not one of the myriad of other deities allegedly available to claim the miracle as their own.

I think you've been cut a lot of slack in this thread, simply because you're an amusing chew-toy, but I think you're guilty of breaking at least two forum rules i.e. on preaching and use of quotes but it is now time for you to actually answer the question WWGHA?

*You'll appreciate that quoting the bible to prove the bible is circular reasoning and therefore inadmissible.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: mram on May 11, 2011, 03:03:12 AM
You mean we need PROOF of foolishness to believe it to be true that we'll burn in hell forever and ever if we don't believe it? Tough crowd..  :laugh:
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Anfauglir on May 11, 2011, 03:42:56 AM
He has set it on me to tell you that He will prove it to you.  Pray like this:  Jesus, if you're real, I want to know about it.  I want to know you.  Please let me know you're real.  God bless.

I did.  I used those exact words.  I was quite sincere.  If Jesus exists, I DO want to know it.

But nothing has happened.

So what now?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: grant on May 11, 2011, 03:59:10 AM
How did this ever get to 3 pages?

I really loved the "I was a heroin addict" "ME TOO" bit. "I can't be outdone". Priceless! Reminds me of the one about  the optimist and pessimist drunks, they fall down blind drunk, one can see the stars, the other the gutter. All about perspective eh SoGgy? Problem is, the one who can see the gutter is the realist. You? You can't face the reality of your position.

I gotta admit though, all these threats of god revealing himself (how many times has this been said?) to me has me a bit freaked out. Lucky I got that shotgun. Any weirdo comes exposing himself in the window tonight ain't gonna know what hit him. Deity or no deity, he's gonna be minced meat the creep.

And god bless you soggy, because the real world won't. The worms are waiting.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Anfauglir on May 11, 2011, 06:11:20 AM
For info - servantofgod has read my question, a couple posts up, because he has responded by PM.  I have apologised, explained that I do not "do" PMs, and requested he places his response in the thread where I engaged with him.  I hope he will do so.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Persephone on May 11, 2011, 06:42:47 AM
You mean we need PROOF of foolishness to believe it to be true that we'll burn in hell forever and ever if we don't believe it? Tough crowd..  :laugh:
Ding! Ding! Ding! +1

My sentiments exactly, mram.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Graybeard on May 11, 2011, 07:25:47 AM
God, and by God I mean the judeo-christian God, is not limited.  Nothing is too difficult for Him to do.
Jos:17:16: And the children of Joseph said, The hill is not enough for us: and all the Canaanites that dwell in the land of the valley have chariots of iron, both they who are of Beth-shean and her towns, and they who are of the valley of Jezreel.
J'g:1:19: And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

2 Kings 3:27 "Then he took his firstborn son, who was to succeed him as king, and offered him as a sacrifice on the city wall. The fury against Israel was great; they withdrew and returned to their own land."

Quote
If God did heal an amputee, would you know about it?  Do you have a list of every amputee in the world and what happens to them?
Seriously? You think someone might have mentioned it - I mean, God has got a good publicity organisation behind him hasn't he?
Quote
Why do you think God wouldn't do it?
Because like fairies, pixies and unicorns, He ain't there.
Quote
Do you think He can't do it?
"Think" suggests there might be some doubt - that there might be some wriggle-room. Of all the contemporaneous, non-biblical records that we have, none of them mentions miracles in the area in which the supposed Jesus was living. You would think that

M't:27:52: And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
M't:27:53: And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

might have merited a line of two in the Jewish or Roman record of the time...
Quote
It is literally impossible for an unbeliever to understand the bible.
I must put this down as the single most vacuous statement on Christianity that I have ever read. 

Listen, your logic goes like this

1. God can do anything
2. Therefore, God can make his meaning clear to everyone
3. No unbeliever can understand the Bible
4. Therefore God cannot make his meaning clear to unbelievers

5. Without knowledge of Jesus, you cannot be saved
6. It is not possible to gain knowledge of Jesus until you are saved.

Catch 22 anyone?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on May 11, 2011, 08:25:28 AM
I have not held back the truth, which is this:

You can know Christ, personally, today, by calling upon His in prayer and asking Him to reveal Himself to you.

Most of us here have done that, especially the former Christians.  When they felt their faith starting to falter, they prayed for strength.  They begged for any kind of a sign that their god was actually there, because they were desperate to avoid losing their faith.  God did not answer them.

I've never been a Christian... I've been an atheist all my life, except for a brief period where I experimented with various types of "woo" for about three or four years in my late teens to early twenties.  Even so, I myself have occasionally indulged Christians who have said this, so I'll do it again...

"Christ, I call upon you in prayer.  I ask you to reveal yourself to me."  I'm doing this with as much sincerity as I can muster, since basically what I'm doing here is attempting to communicate telepathically with a being who almost certainly does not exist, which I consider to be an act of superlative absurdity.  But there you go... he has his chance.

--Well, my cell phone just vibrated; someone has left me a voicemail.  Maybe it's him.  Does Christ have a 703 area code?  I think I'll wait a while to listen to the VM, just to heighten the suspense.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 11, 2011, 08:42:40 AM
God, and by God I mean the judeo-christian God, is not limited.  Nothing is too difficult for Him to do.  He is God Almighty and can do anything.  It is just as easy for Him to heal an amputee as it is to raise someone from the dead.  The bible has testimony of several miracles which were of a greater order than healing a lost limb, so why this particular case is noteworthy to atheists I have no idea. 

Begging the question


If God did heal an amputee, would you know about it?  Do you have a list of every amputee in the world and what happens to them?  Why do you think God wouldn't do it?  Do you think He can't do it?

Appeal to Ignorance, Begging the Question



You're going about this the wrong way, if you want to know anything about God.  You're trying to deconstruct something you don't understand.  It is literally impossible for an unbeliever to understand the bible.


Appeal to Ignorance, Begging the Question


Personally, I haven't known many atheists who have ever tried.  Most of them seem to memorize a few passgaes they think helps their arguments and that's it.  Personally I think it's fairly ignorant to judge something you don't even understand yourself.

Begging the Question, Posioning the well




If you want to know if Jesus is real or not, put Him to the test.  With a sincere heart, pray to Him like this:

Jesus, if you do exist I want to know about it and I want to know you.  Please reveal yourself to me Jesus;  show me that you're real.

If you you do that Jesus will show you that He is real and that He is Almighty God.  Here is a word for you:

Matthew 11:28

Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest

God bless.

Begging the Question, Appeal to Emotion



Next time create an argument that is not entirely constructed out of fallacies.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 11, 2011, 08:49:02 AM

They are verified by God Himself.

 That was my point above that, if you actually tried to know Jesus, you would see that.   The bible perfectly describes not only what is happening on Earth now, but also how to obtain salvation and know God.

We only know God by natural and special revelation.  Natural revelation is that God has made His appearance plain, that His eternal attributes are apparent from the things He has made.  Special revelation is when God comes to you personally.  Everyone can know God in this way if they ask to.

Begging the Question. Appeal to personal credulity.

Try constructing an argument that does not entirely consist of fallacies
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 11, 2011, 08:51:36 AM
I told you you can know God directly.  He will reveal Himself to you if you ask Him to.  By that, I mean sincerely and not swearing at Him and cursing His name and demanding He do tricks for you.  But just genuinely wanting to know if He is actually real or not.  You seem to have made up your mind, but I am telling you that He will show Himself to you if you ask.

Begging the question, No True Scottsman


Next time, try constructing an argument that does not entirely consist of fallacies

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 11, 2011, 08:57:07 AM
The true Christian is the one who follows Christ and obeys His word.  The true church is the body of Christ, of which every Christian is a member.  Personally, I am non-denominational.  I do not put any exclusivity on the body of Christ however.

No true Scottsman

Next time, try constructing an argument that does not consist entirely of fallacies
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 11, 2011, 08:59:51 AM
Some things are due to Gods timing.  For instance, I was agnostic for most of my life, when God suddenly revealed Himself to me.  I did not seek Him out, He chose me.  Why, I don't know..but now of course I wish I had heard from Him when I was a kid.  Yet, it's up to Him.

Let me tell you this much, and I know you are telling the truth about what you are saying.  That you have sincerely sought Him. 

Jesus put it on my heart to come here and tell you, and anyone else here who will listen, that if you ask to know Him sincerely, if you pray to Him and ask if He is real, He will reveal Himself to you.  I know He is serious about it so please, try Him once more.  If you seek you will find.  I will spend some time reading the rest of your post and answering it.  God bless.

No true Scottsman, Appeal to personal credulity


Next time try constructing an argument that does not entirely consist of fallacies
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 11, 2011, 09:02:28 AM

I did see Thor..I thought it was entertaining, yet it really pales in comparison to biblical testimony.  I'll tell you a story about Thor though..

There was a boy I knew who was constantly being tortured by a demonic presence.  He would hear the voices of demons, or perhaps even Satan, saying the most vile and awful things in his mind.  He would be physically tortured by these denoms to the point where he would go into convulsions.  Then one day when it was happening, for some reason, he called upon the name of Thor.  When he did this the demons suddenly disappeared.

This happened a few times, so he decided that Thor must be the true God.  Yet, he figured out later this is exactly what they wanted him to believe.  When the demons saw he was calling on something other than Jesus, they stopped torturing him.  It was only later when he figured this out that he was able to make them leave permanently by calling on the name of the Lord.

In any case, as I was saying to "Death over Life", that Jesus put it on my heart to tell you here that Jesus is calling to you now.  He is calling you to come to Him and know Him personally.  I believe you have sought sincerely, but try one more time.  You will not be disappointed.  God bless.

Begging the question, Appeal to personal credulity, ignoring the counterevidence, Special pleading


Next time try constructing an argument that does not entirely consist of fallacies
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: johnbhoy76 on May 11, 2011, 09:10:16 AM

If you want to know if Jesus is real or not, put Him to the test.  With a sincere heart, pray to Him like this:

Jesus, if you do exist I want to know about it and I want to know you.  Please reveal yourself to me Jesus;  show me that you're real.

If you you do that Jesus will show you that He is real and that He is Almighty God.  Here is a word for you:

Matthew 11:28

Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest

God bless.

Could he not just grow back someones severed arm/leg instead?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 11, 2011, 09:11:44 AM
Wait. 2 things.

#1. God chose you, not you chose god? So that means you are admitting god plays favoritism, as to who to save, and who to send to the eternal toaster. And you say this is a god of love? He chooses you, but not us, what gives?

Some people are elect, in that God chose them before the foundation of the world.  Meaning, God knew me, knew that He would create me before He even made the world.  The apostles were an example of this.  So, my life has always been predestined.  This isn't the case with everyone.

#2. Your scriptures say, seek and you shall find, but also contradicts itself saying that no man is able to seek god.

So, I am doing what the Bible says, and I’m not finding your god in reality. Ironically, in obeying the Bible, I am disobeying the Bible, because I am not able to seek God. So, with the de-coder ring, which is it?

The bible says that no man can find God because no one is righteous.  This is why God made a provision for us through His Son.  Christ is the mediator between man and God.

Let me tell you this much, and I know you are telling the truth about what you are saying.  That you have sincerely sought Him. 

Jesus put it on my heart to come here and tell you, and anyone else here who will listen, that if you ask to know Him sincerely, if you pray to Him and ask if He is real, He will reveal Himself to you.  I know He is serious about it so please, try Him once more.  If you seek you will find.  I will spend some time reading the rest of your post and answering it.  God bless.

I’ve given Him infinite amount of chances, he takes none. God will be through with me when I’m dead, even I will forgive him after I’m dead. So, once again, how is this seen as love, because as your faith puts it, when I’m dead I’m damned, yet I’ll be willing to forgive God if he shows up in front of me when I’m dead. How is this tyrant who plays games with his own creation seen as love?

I only know what God put on my heart and that its trustworthy.  On your part though, if you're saying that you honestly seek God..why do you spend your time hanging around here cursing God?  That isn't how to find Him.  Railing against Him isn't going to get you anywhere.

(1)Begging the question. No True Scottsman
(2)Non Sequitur
(3)Begging the question
(4)Appeal to personal credulity, Begging the question, No true Scottsman


Next time try constructing an argument that does not entirely consist of fallacies
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 11, 2011, 09:14:07 AM
What I mean about taking care of my family is this..I am here to witness to them.  My mother is an agnostic, my sister an atheist, my brother an atheist and my father is an atheist.  Currently, I have been called to witness to them.  After this, I will go where He calls me next.

Appeal to Emotion, Begging the question, Appeal to personal credulity


Next time try constructing an argument that does not entirely consist of fallacies
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 11, 2011, 09:15:19 AM

None of them ever cursed God, they cursed the hypocrites who claimed to serve God will keeping the truth from the people.

Ignoring the counterevidence, special pleading


Next time try constucting an argument that does not entirely consist of fallacies
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 11, 2011, 09:17:08 AM

Actually, you are incorrect.  Christ uses the greek word "miseo" in that passage, the meaning is to love less than.  It is saying to put the Lord above your family.  The bible says anyone who loves his mother or father more than me is not worthy of me.  This is the true meaning of that passage.

No true Scottsman

Next time try constructing an argument that does not entirely consist of fallacies
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 11, 2011, 09:18:56 AM
It's a little bit of both, Az, but the true meaning of my presence here is to bring them to the Lord.

Begging the question, Special Pleading

Next time try constructing an argument that does not entirely consist of fallacies
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 11, 2011, 09:21:31 AM
First of all, you would be wrong in any case.  To hate your mother or father would violate the second greatest commandment, which is what all the law and the prophets hang on.  That is to love your neighbor as yourself.  This isn't what Christ was teaching.  He said plainly anyone who loves his mother and father more than me can't be my disciple.  This is the meaning of the passage.  To put the Lord first. 

I am not a scholar of languages, I couldn't really go into the entymology of this particular word.  You can look at this literally if you wish, but the bible often engages in parables and metaphorical language.  This was not a condemnation of the family, it was a reminder that God comes first.  It would be difficult for an unbeliever to see the correct context in any case.

Ignoring the counterevidence, special pleading, No true Scottsman, Poisoning the Well


Next time try constructing an argument that does not entirely consist of fallacies
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on May 11, 2011, 09:22:36 AM
Holy shit.  Hatter23 should change his name to ED-209.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 11, 2011, 09:23:30 AM
Not everyone is elected, but anyone can be saved.  The only beings who have been judged already are the devil and his angels.

Begging the question, appeal to negative consequences


Next time try contructing an argument that does not entirely consist of fallacies
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 11, 2011, 09:24:23 AM
Holy shit.  Hatter23 should change his name to ED-209.

Is that a positive or negative connotation?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 11, 2011, 09:30:07 AM

I have not held back the truth, which is this:

You can know Christ, personally, today, by calling upon His in prayer and asking Him to reveal Himself to you.

Arugmenum ad nauseum, Begging the question

Next time try constructing an argument that does not entirely consist of fallacies
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on May 11, 2011, 09:38:28 AM
Holy shit.  Hatter23 should change his name to ED-209.

Is that a positive or negative connotation?

Positive in this case, although now that I think about it, the actual ED-209 shredding was not a good thing.

OK, so you're ED-209's "good twin", I guess.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Zankuu on May 11, 2011, 09:40:50 AM
No one dies before his time and there are no guarantees on our life.  Today is the best you can hope for.  When God demands your life back from you, there is nothing you can do to avoid it.  This is why today is the day to know Jesus Christ.  It's the second death which is permanent..but Gods gift is eternal life.

servantofgod, I live in a world where babies die in the wombs of their mothers due to natural causes. According to you this is the work of Yahweh since "No one dies before his time[...]." Why would your god murder prematurely demand they return that life? Is that fair? Is it fair that you get to experience decades of existence while their lives are snuffed out before they even take one breath?

What is the point in extinguishing the lives of children before they have a chance to learn about your god? "I think I'll create a child that will live a six year lifespan of malnourishment and pain. He won't have the mental capacity to even entertain the thought of my existence and will have his life end face down in the dirt where upon vultures will pick him apart." If you disagree with this idea about your god's thought process, please explain what you think goes through his head when he creates such fitting beginnings and ends for the lives of the creations he loves.

The world isn't watched over by an all loving deity, servantofgod. The world just exists.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 11, 2011, 09:42:05 AM

Matthew 22:37-40

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Here is another passage speaking of the importance of love.  One of the most beautiful verses in the entire bible:

 1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

You just did go into it. Then you got smacked down, and now you're trying to back out.

I freely admit you may know more about the entymology of this word than I do.  However, I know your interpertation is not accurate.  The bible tells us this specifically:

John 4:20

If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.
Arugmenum ad nauseum, Begging the question, No True Scottsman, Appeal to Emotion, Ignoring the counterevidence

Next time try constructing an argument that does not entirely consist of fallacies
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Alzael on May 11, 2011, 09:42:25 AM
I simply provided the proof you asked for when you stated that love wasn't important nor was it the greatest commandment. Now you you have changed your tune and are now asking for additional proof where before you simply stated it didn't exist at all.  The passage about the greatest commandment appears only once.  The meaning of a verse is not increased by its duplication.  It simply is the greatest commandment, once or one thousand times.  Here are some further passages stressing the importance of love:

I've changed nothing. You still have not shown that it is the greatest commandment. All you did was make some half-assed quotes that talked about love. It still does neither indicate that it is the greatest commandment, nor does it indicate any particular level of importance (especially since love is rarely actually shown in the bible, especially from god) over anything else. As I mentioned I can quote a lot more verses regarding Holy wars and rape. By the reasoning that you're showing this makes those among the greatest commandments as well. A point that I notice you ignored.

I have not changed my tune. You have created a strawman.

John 13:34-35

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Matthew 5:43-48,

You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Luke 6:27-36

“But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

   32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

None of which actually supports your assertion. You still do not show that it is the greatest commandment. At most all that you've shown is that god says that we should do it. Among the several hundred other things that we are told to do.

To repeat, simply quoting verses about love does not make them the greatest commandments, not do they even make them particularly important. Since you keep using this tactic, then I'm going to assume that you also believe that war and genocide are gods greatest commandments. Because apparently they are by your standards.

Even if you knew everything about every subject in the world, it would be for nothing, because you don't know God.  Here is your problem:

1 Corinthians 2:14

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You don't know anything about god either you realize? Everything that you think you know about god you've made up. We know this because you have no actual evidence of anything that you say. Without evidence nothing you say is any different from a mental illness. No, before you bring it up, personal experiences are not evidence of anything. So since you have no evidence and cannot provide you would have to, if you were actually an honest person, admit that you do not know anything and are simply making assertions. Since you don't seem to have a single scrap of honesty within you though, I won't expect such a thing from you.

Since you claim to follow the word of god so closely, why are you even here? After all, we're non-believers.

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? ... Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord." 2 Cor 6:14-17

Or more to the point, why don't you go around killing the people who don't believe? You said that your parents don't believe, why are they still alive?

""If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die." Dt 13:6-10

Do you have children? If you do I assume that you won't hesitate to beat them to death if they get out of line, right?

"Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell." Proverbs 23:13-14

What about killing people who work on Sundays? Do you do that? Do you kill the babies of non-believers? Like I said, you're a liar and a hypocrite. You try so hard to devise all of these ways to get around what the bible says, buit it doesn't really work does it, all you can do is fall back on fallacy and your own limited mind.

How did this ever get to 3 pages?

I really loved the "I was a heroin addict" "ME TOO" bit. "I can't be outdone". Priceless! Reminds me of the one about  the optimist and pessimist drunks, they fall down blind drunk, one can see the stars, the other the gutter. All about perspective eh SoGgy? Problem is, the one who can see the gutter is the realist. You? You can't face the reality of your position.

I wouldn't take it too seriously. He's lied so much I don't even think he knows what he's saying anymore. He's saying whatever he thinks it'll take to convert us. He seems to need it to somehow validate himself.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Alzael on May 11, 2011, 09:44:53 AM

I have not held back the truth, which is this:

You can know Christ, personally, today, by calling upon His in prayer and asking Him to reveal Himself to you.

Arugmenum ad nauseum, Begging the question

Next time try constructing an argument that does not entirely consist of fallacies

Hatter, don't begrudge the poor man his fallacies. He's got so little else, think of it as charity.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: screwtape on May 11, 2011, 12:26:17 PM
It's a little bit of both, Az, but the true meaning of my presence here is to bring them to the Lord.

wow.  That is quite a responsibility you have there.  You, of all people, have actually been called (by the lord, no less!) to witness to your family, to save them from eternal damnation.  Man.  You are like some kind of spiritual John McClane[1], or a John Wayne for jesus!

This sort of delusion of grandeur is what makes religion, xianity in particular, so attractive.  It makes you think you are a superhero hand picked by god to take on important missions in the cosmic struggle of Good vs Evil.  When the reality is you are just a regular guy with regular problems.  You have a regular, boring job, a boring (kind of plain) wife, insufferable kids, a crappy house, clothing somewhat less stylish than the Matrix, and no hobbies to speak of.  Your delusions make you feel important.  They give you an escape from that.  They promise you riches[2]. They give you a sense of purpose. 

I've seen this before in LARPers. Don't know what LARPing is?  It is Live Action Role Playing.  It is is where the biggest geeks you have ever seen in your life dress up in armor, pretend to be elves or wizards or knights and whack each other with foam swords in public parks.  Check out the documentary Darkon (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0462246/).  You, my friend, are LARPing.  Your LARP has a different theme and you don't realize you are doing it.  But you are LARPing.



 1. ref: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0095016/
 2. ...after you are dead, of course, when there is no possible hope of knowing whether that promise is valid
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Alzael on May 11, 2011, 12:41:47 PM

I've seen this before in LARPers. Don't know what LARPing is?  It is Live Action Role Playing.  It is is where the biggest geeks you have ever seen in your life dress up in armor, pretend to be elves or wizards or knights and whack each other with foam swords in public parks.  Check out the documentary Darkon (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0462246/).  You, my friend, are LARPing.  Your LARP has a different theme and you don't realize you are doing it.  But you are LARPing.

As someone who's done this and have several friends who engage in it, I find this comparison between LARPing and religion thoroughly insulting. Also highly inaccurate since LARPer's are perfectly aware that they're acting out a fantasy among other problems with the analogy.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: mram on May 11, 2011, 12:51:10 PM
So what are your plans after being a witness? Taking care of family to do what exactly? Dance and sing and celebrate they're all going to burn in hell in torment and torture and smoke and fire and all that forever and ever and ever?  I bet they're really appreciative of the gesture..  &)
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: screwtape on May 11, 2011, 12:53:46 PM
As someone who's done this and have several friends who engage in it, I find this comparison between LARPing and religion thoroughly insulting. Also highly inaccurate since LARPer's are perfectly aware that they're acting out a fantasy among other problems with the analogy.

Take it easy, pointdexter.  No need to unsheath your magic missile bean bags.  I took pains to make the distinction that LARPers know they are in a fantasy[1] and religious kooks, like sog, do not.  You even quoted that part. 




 1. though for sure you could find a few LARPers for whom the line is blurry.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Alzael on May 11, 2011, 12:57:40 PM
As someone who's done this and have several friends who engage in it, I find this comparison between LARPing and religion thoroughly insulting. Also highly inaccurate since LARPer's are perfectly aware that they're acting out a fantasy among other problems with the analogy.

Take it easy, pointdexter.  No need to unsheath your magic missile bean bags.  I took pains to make the distinction that LARPers know they are in a fantasy[1] and religious kooks, like sog, do not.  You even quoted that part.
 1. though for sure you could find a few LARPers for whom the line is blurry.

If we ever meet in real life Screwtape, I am so going to shove my +5 Holy Avenger right up your ass.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 11, 2011, 01:01:31 PM

I've seen this before in LARPers. Don't know what LARPing is?  It is Live Action Role Playing.  It is is where the biggest geeks you have ever seen in your life dress up in armor, pretend to be elves or wizards or knights and whack each other with foam swords in public parks.  Check out the documentary Darkon (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0462246/).  You, my friend, are LARPing.  Your LARP has a different theme and you don't realize you are doing it.  But you are LARPing.

As someone who's done this and have several friends who engage in it, I find this comparison between LARPing and religion thoroughly insulting. Also highly inaccurate since LARPer's are perfectly aware that they're acting out a fantasy among other problems with the analogy.

Larping, it is where geeks go to get any sort of cardio-vascular and still be a geek at the same time. I think that's a good thing.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Alzael on May 11, 2011, 01:08:41 PM

Larping, it is where geeks go to get any sort of cardio-vascular and still be a geek at the same time. I think that's a good thing.

Laser Tag.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: screwtape on May 11, 2011, 01:12:59 PM
If we ever meet in real life Screwtape, I am so going to shove my +5 Holy Avenger right up your ass.

So much for your nerdcred.  An atheist could not weild a Holy Avenger. 

Anyway, back on topic...
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Alzael on May 11, 2011, 01:21:59 PM
If we ever meet in real life Screwtape, I am so going to shove my +5 Holy Avenger right up your ass.

So much for your nerdcred.  An atheist could not weild a Holy Avenger. 

Anyway, back on topic...

Actually yours. A Holy Avenger only requires a good alignment and works best in the hands of a paladin (which is when it becomes a +5 weapon as opposed to it's traditional +2). And since paladins don't have to actually worship a god then it makes it a perfectly acceptable weapon for an atheist character. Furthermore, even if there was some restriction such as that, it would not mean that you couldn't wield it. Just that it's powers would not work for you. Your nerdfu is very weak, grasshopper.

More on topic now, I've noticed in SoG's rantings that he keeps insistently trying to defend that gods ultimate commandment is love to me in order to refute the part about Jesus telling his followers to hate.

Now SoG, I want you to seriously take a minute and think about this. Go back and look at all of the hoops that you've been jumping through to show that that particular verse does not mean what it says that it means...........

Ok, did you do that? Good, not let me ask you something.

Do you honestly find all of that to be a better, simpler, and more likely answer than the fact that the bible was written by many people, with many different priorities, who were making stuff up?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: mram on May 11, 2011, 01:34:05 PM
I'm beginning to think sog has given up on us fire breathing, demonic eaters of new born flesh of humans...Maybe the cops nabbed him so we can have one of those cool baby sacrifices that Newts preacher talks about!  ;D
Anyone got a baby handy they don't need anymore?  :o
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 11, 2011, 02:23:53 PM
I'm beginning to think sog has given up on us fire breathing, demonic eaters of new born flesh of humans...Maybe the cops nabbed him so we can have one of those cool baby sacrifices that Newts preacher talks about!  ;D
Anyone got a baby handy they don't need anymore?  :o

Nup today was trashday and cleaned the leftovers out of the fridge last night. I swear, when baby face gets moldy it gives me the creeps
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: hickdive on May 11, 2011, 04:25:00 PM
Anyone got a baby handy they don't need anymore?  :o

Join the EAC today and have a fresh one sent by Fedex to your doorstep within 48 hours. That's not all, you'll also receive this handsome clock

(http://www.time4awatch.co.uk/store/images/uploads/CM926_WRD_Solid_brass_and_brass_finish_carriage_clock.jpg)

and a set of steak knives!

(http://www.bambooknifeblock.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Victorinox-48792-Cutlery-6-Piece-Steak-Knife-Set.jpg)

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: LadyLucy on May 11, 2011, 05:13:17 PM

Larping, it is where geeks go to get any sort of cardio-vascular and still be a geek at the same time. I think that's a good thing.

Laser Tag.

Bring it on, nerd. -Uses inhaler-

On-topic: SoG, why do you want us to believe in your deity and not another one? I've asked this question to many other theists. They either:

A. Did not answer me on purpose [I.E. No clue as to how to answer]
B. Ignored me, because they thought I was trolling
C. They simply never answered me out of anger

How about it? If you think you are so honest, please answer me. I have not received any answer to this day.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on May 11, 2011, 05:29:09 PM
For instance, I was agnostic for most of my life, when God suddenly revealed Himself to me.

Did you press charges?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Historicity on May 11, 2011, 06:41:12 PM
I've just read the thread and my impression is that I like servantofgod's family.  They are glad their little boy is off heroin and into something that is less lethal (in modern  context) and it is just darling that he thinks he is "taking care of them" when I am pretty sure he is back living at home and in real world terms they are taking care of him.

That is, he does not even hint that he contributes to buying the groceries.  Does he mow the lawn?

So they patiently and tolerantly tolerate his sloganeering.

Setting aside whatever rank the virtue of love has as a commandment, I think his famlly is manifesting it in deed.

"By their works ye shall know them."   That's in the Bible somewhere.  Instead of looking it up and seeing what kind of works were indicated, I will use the Christian method and leave it out of context and spin it nicely.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Historicity on May 11, 2011, 06:55:46 PM
No, I can't.  It goes against my nature.  Here it is:
Quote
Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.



7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
So, as i suspected, it's mostly about the works of evil people while above I misquoted and applied it to good people.

On second thought I'm glad I reread that. "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit" is an astoundingly stupid thing to say.

Good intentions and purity of heart can produce horrible results if you f&#* it up.  Even Ned Flanders saw that when his neighbors rebuilt his house horribly.  It also contradicts one of the premises of The Wealth of Nations that, for instance, the butcher is making food available to you because he wants to make a profit. 

On third thought, it's not astoundingly stupid, it's just simperingly stupid.


Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Death over Life on May 11, 2011, 10:26:01 PM
No, I can't.  It goes against my nature.  Here it is:
Quote
Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.



7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
So, as i suspected, it's mostly about the works of evil people while above I misquoted and applied it to good people.

On second thought I'm glad I reread that. "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit" is an astoundingly stupid thing to say.

Good intentions and purity of heart can produce horrible results if you f&#* it up.  Even Ned Flanders saw that when his neighbors rebuilt his house horribly.  It also contradicts one of the premises of The Wealth of Nations that, for instance, the butcher is making food available to you because he wants to make a profit. 

On third thought, it's not astoundingly stupid, it's just simperingly stupid.

Hey bro! I had to +1 this post up because thinking on it, you just revealed to me ANOTHER contradiction in the Bible!

As you have said (erhm, Matthew):

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Alright, so how does this fall in with the Garden of Eden story in Genesis?

Genesis 1:

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

So, here in Ch.1 it is shown that Adam and Eve were good, created good. Because they are good, the can not bring forth evil fruits.

Go to Ch.3:

1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
20And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.


So, apparently, they brought forth evil fruit, eating off the knowledge of good and evil tree. How could they have done this if they were made good and that good trees can not bear bad fruit?

Either that, or it is good to sin and that Adam and Eve did sin, because this was all set up by God to begin with, so God is saying that it is good to sin against him.

Pretty confusing god to say the least imhaho.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Astreja on May 12, 2011, 12:20:37 AM
So call out to Him and He will come.

How does one distinguish between a real Jesus and an imagined one?  Neither one seems to be healing any amputees.

You know Him.  Believe me, if Jesus comes to you you won't be wondering if it was real or not.  His sheep know His voice.  He has set it on me to tell you that He will prove it to you.  Pray like this:  Jesus, if you're real, I want to know about it.  I want to know you.  Please let me know you're real.  God bless.

No, Servantofgod... I have a much better idea.

(pauses to put Her archetypal Evil Genius Fluffy White Cat, Ludwig von Snow, in Her lap)

I completely lack faith in the stuff and whatnot of Christianity.  Completely and utterly.  I literally couldn't say that prayer with a straight face, because I honestly believe it to be nonsense.

You, on the other hand, claim to have the real thing.  This is what I want you to do:

Simply pray "Jesus, please restore both legs to one double amputee in my city."

(Scratches Ludwig behind the ears) That's it.  That's all you have to do.  If it doesn't come to pass, perhaps you got a counterfeit Jesus too.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Anfauglir on May 12, 2011, 12:54:11 AM
Bit of background...SoG said:

He has set it on me to tell you that He will prove it to you.  Pray like this:  Jesus, if you're real, I want to know about it.  I want to know you.  Please let me know you're real.  God bless.

I did.  I used those exact words.  I was quite sincere.  If Jesus exists, I DO want to know it.

But nothing has happened.

I asked SoG what now?

In a PM, he said:
I can tell you're being honest, that you do want to know if Jesus is real.  Let me ask you this question: 

If God revealed Himself to you, would you witness to these people?  Would you put down your pride as an intellectual and preach His gospel to the lost sheep? 

I replied to say that I would not speak in PMs - all of you who recall the Fran situation will understand why.  Then I got this:

In other words, you're not interested in knowing the Lord.  You wish to have an audience to earn the praise of men.  From now on, please don't wonder why the Lord hasn't revealed Himself to you..

ServantofGod, I asked Jesus in all sincerity to reveal himself to me, using the exact words that YOU said would be guaranteed to work.  They didn't.  I asked you to explain.  You didn't.

What you DID was to first say "would you let everyone know it happened" - and then slammed me for WANTING to share the experience.  You can't have it both ways my friend - either you want me to share the truth of my experience with others, or you don't.....or is it that you ONLY want me to share things that fit your views, and supress anything that does not?

So I say to you again - I prayed EXACTLY as you said.  And nothing happened.  WHY NOT? 

And, I say to you here and now.  If I pray, and I get a response, then I will let everyone know.  I am not a fearful coward who will speak in public only those things he has held dear.  If I were visitied by Christ, I would shout if from the rooftops - I would, ask you say, witness and "preach the gospel to the lost sheep".  Anyone here will vouch for my integrity in that - and indeed you yourself said you could tell I was honest.

Yet all of a sudden - because I asked you to explain in public why the promise you gave us, that you claim god promised you, did not come to pass.  And I wonder whether, in fact, it is YOU that needs the praise of men, and will only speak when things go right. 

How prideful are you, ServantofGod?  I prayed the way you told me to - the way you say God told you to tell me to - and nothing happened.  You - and god - PROMISED me I would hear on that day.  I did everything you claim God wanted.....and nothing happened.

What am I supposed to think?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Death over Life on May 12, 2011, 01:20:34 AM
I think we scared him away.

Anfauglir hit the nail on the head!

Oh yeah, we should think that sog is a liar, a fool, and is deluded.

Last, but not least, a hypocrite especially since he came on here saying he can prove to us his' personal god can heal amputees, and then he doesn't show us the evidence, and then we try his revelations of praying that the god reveals himself to us for simply asking, and yet nothing happens.

I think we should have done this: In Jesus' Name!

sog, if you are still here, at least pay very close attention to the 3 minute mark on to the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZO2u-jDNpQ
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 12, 2011, 01:42:46 AM
You would shout it from the rooftops?  Those are beautiful words to hear.  I hope you remember them.  In regards to timing, give it time.  Just have faith that if He exists He heard you and will come to you in due time.  I can't tell you anything about Gods timing because I don't understand anything about it, other than it is always perfect.

I was called to say those words to people that day, which is why I said them to you.  He did not tell me anything about timing; all I know you is that you will not be disappointed.

Bit of background...SoG said:

He has set it on me to tell you that He will prove it to you.  Pray like this:  Jesus, if you're real, I want to know about it.  I want to know you.  Please let me know you're real.  God bless.

I did.  I used those exact words.  I was quite sincere.  If Jesus exists, I DO want to know it.

But nothing has happened.

I asked SoG what now?

In a PM, he said:
I can tell you're being honest, that you do want to know if Jesus is real.  Let me ask you this question: 

If God revealed Himself to you, would you witness to these people?  Would you put down your pride as an intellectual and preach His gospel to the lost sheep? 

I replied to say that I would not speak in PMs - all of you who recall the Fran situation will understand why.  Then I got this:

In other words, you're not interested in knowing the Lord.  You wish to have an audience to earn the praise of men.  From now on, please don't wonder why the Lord hasn't revealed Himself to you..

ServantofGod, I asked Jesus in all sincerity to reveal himself to me, using the exact words that YOU said would be guaranteed to work.  They didn't.  I asked you to explain.  You didn't.

What you DID was to first say "would you let everyone know it happened" - and then slammed me for WANTING to share the experience.  You can't have it both ways my friend - either you want me to share the truth of my experience with others, or you don't.....or is it that you ONLY want me to share things that fit your views, and supress anything that does not?

So I say to you again - I prayed EXACTLY as you said.  And nothing happened.  WHY NOT? 

And, I say to you here and now.  If I pray, and I get a response, then I will let everyone know.  I am not a fearful coward who will speak in public only those things he has held dear.  If I were visitied by Christ, I would shout if from the rooftops - I would, ask you say, witness and "preach the gospel to the lost sheep".  Anyone here will vouch for my integrity in that - and indeed you yourself said you could tell I was honest.

Yet all of a sudden - because I asked you to explain in public why the promise you gave us, that you claim god promised you, did not come to pass.  And I wonder whether, in fact, it is YOU that needs the praise of men, and will only speak when things go right. 

How prideful are you, ServantofGod?  I prayed the way you told me to - the way you say God told you to tell me to - and nothing happened.  You - and god - PROMISED me I would hear on that day.  I did everything you claim God wanted.....and nothing happened.

What am I supposed to think?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 12, 2011, 01:50:57 AM
Life from Death, witness the parable of the sower:

While a large crowd was gathering and people were coming to Jesus from town after town, he told this parable: 5 “A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds ate it up. 6 Some fell on rocky ground, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up with it and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown

When he said this, he called out, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”

This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

The passage I highlighted applies to you.  Here is your answer:

John 6:39

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

Jesus has not forgotten you.  He has not abandoned you, and He will not give you up to the evil one.  Though you have forsaken Him, He has never forsaken you. 

Brother, I was elected.  God is more real to me than I am to myself.  No lie will darken the light I have been given by our Lord Jesus Christ.  Though you are deceived, you will be delivered from evil.  God bless.



I think we scared him away.

Anfauglir hit the nail on the head!

Oh yeah, we should think that sog is a liar, a fool, and is deluded.

Last, but not least, a hypocrite especially since he came on here saying he can prove to us his' personal god can heal amputees, and then he doesn't show us the evidence, and then we try his revelations of praying that the god reveals himself to us for simply asking, and yet nothing happens.

I think we should have done this: In Jesus' Name!

sog, if you are still here, at least pay very close attention to the 3 minute mark on to the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZO2u-jDNpQ
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: hickdive on May 12, 2011, 01:53:42 AM
Can I have an answer to my question please?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 12, 2011, 01:59:46 AM
Can I have an answer to my question please?

What was your question?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: hickdive on May 12, 2011, 02:09:45 AM
What was your question?

Reply #62
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 12, 2011, 02:13:10 AM
What is this concept of fairness you have?  Do you think you can judge God?  He has the power of life and death.  He can demand your life at any time.  Everything He does has a purpose, even if we are too ignorant to see it. 

Luke 12:4-5

'I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him"

You don't fear God, you believe you will just die and it will be over, that you won't be held responsible for your sins..but when you do die your spirit will leave your body, and then you will be afraid.  Imagine what that will be like.  God could demand your life at any time.  Save yourself and come to Christ before it is too late.

No one dies before his time and there are no guarantees on our life.  Today is the best you can hope for.  When God demands your life back from you, there is nothing you can do to avoid it.  This is why today is the day to know Jesus Christ.  It's the second death which is permanent..but Gods gift is eternal life.

servantofgod, I live in a world where babies die in the wombs of their mothers due to natural causes. According to you this is the work of Yahweh since "No one dies before his time[...]." Why would your god murder prematurely demand they return that life? Is that fair? Is it fair that you get to experience decades of existence while their lives are snuffed out before they even take one breath?

What is the point in extinguishing the lives of children before they have a chance to learn about your god? "I think I'll create a child that will live a six year lifespan of malnourishment and pain. He won't have the mental capacity to even entertain the thought of my existence and will have his life end face down in the dirt where upon vultures will pick him apart." If you disagree with this idea about your god's thought process, please explain what you think goes through his head when he creates such fitting beginnings and ends for the lives of the creations he loves.

The world isn't watched over by an all loving deity, servantofgod. The world just exists.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 12, 2011, 02:18:38 AM
What was your question?

Reply #62

If I did have proof, would you believe it?  If I pointed to a story, wouldn't you question every last premise and believe none of it?  God can do anything, God isn't limited.  Your supposition is that God doesn't even exist.  So this nonsense about whether God has healed amputees or not is really just a mind game you play with believers.  It doesn't matter if God has healed amputees.  He can raise people from the dead.  It would be a lesser miracle in any sense to that.  You don't ask why hasn't God raised people from the dead?  That would be a more impressive demonstration, don't you think? 

The truth is, since you don't believe the scriptures it doesn't matter what miracle God does..it will never convince you.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: hickdive on May 12, 2011, 02:53:50 AM
If I did have proof, would you believe it?  If I pointed to a story, wouldn't you question every last premise and believe none of it?

If you pointed to a story then yes, it is unlikely I would believe it, just as you don't believe that there is a school for wizards called Hogwarts. However, if you provided me with evidence then I probably would believe it. I think that one of the major problems you have is that you have somehow managed to convince yourself that 'story' and 'evidence' are synonyms when it comes to the bible.

God can do anything, God isn't limited.


Except god can't provide evidence of its existence, nor heal an amputee once, even if they are a true believer and pray sincerely?

In addition, how do you reconcile an omnipotent god with predestination?

ur supposition is that God doesn't even exist. 

Actually, it is your supposition that god exists and your further supposition that it is the judeo-christian god that exists. I make no suppositions, I simply await evidence upon which I can base belief, or not. Thus far you have failed to provide any.

It doesn't matter if God has healed amputees.  He can raise people from the dead.  It would be a lesser miracle in any sense to that.   

A lesser miracle? Where does that leave the story of the resurrection of christ?

You don't ask why hasn't God raised people from the dead?  That would be a more impressive demonstration, don't you think?   

Probably not. The precise moment of death is hard to define clinically and there are many people today who are alive because they were succesfully resuscitated from a point that would have been 'dead' in earlier times

The truth is, since you don't believe the scriptures it doesn't matter what miracle God does..it will never convince you.

Except
God can do anything, God isn't limited.
and yet he cannot convince me of the veracity of the scriptures or am I predestined not to believe them?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Persephone on May 12, 2011, 04:37:58 AM
God can do anything, God isn't limited.  Your supposition is that God doesn't even exist.  So this nonsense about whether God has healed amputees or not is really just a mind game you play with believers.  It doesn't matter if God has healed amputees.  He can raise people from the dead.
I am going to make this simple.

Assumption: When you say, "God can do anything" you mean "There is nothing on earth that exists that God cannot do." If I am incorrect, please let me know.

What I'm trying to prove: If God cannot heal an amputee, then you cannot fairly say "he can do anything". Asking God to heal a single amputee is not a mind game played with believers. It is an example taken from that great pool of things you labeled "anything" in "God can do anything". All it takes is ONE example of something he cannot do to disprove your statement.

(What is your problem with the example we've chosen here? Why do you distract by pointing to supposed acts of raising from the dead?)

1. If your God can truly do ANYTHING, then he can do the SOMETHING that we have asked of him.

2. The SOMETHING we are asking him to do is "Heal an amputee".

3. He cannot (or will not).

4. There exists at least one thing your god cannot do (or refuses to do).

5. Therefore, your god is not omnipotent (or he is a sadistic bastard).



Please stop lying and saying that he is.

----------------------------------------

Here is my challenge to you, since you have faith. If you truly want us to see the power of God, pray for God to show himself in a way that is believable to us. Private revelation doesn't count because private revelation has given us Judaism (Abraham), 7th Day Adventists (Ellen G. White), Mormonism (Joseph Smith), Islam (Muhammad), Christianity (Paul) and any number of evangelical writers today who preface their talks and books with, "The Lord showed to me...."
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Anfauglir on May 12, 2011, 05:08:43 AM
In regards to timing, give it time.  Just have faith that if He exists He heard you and will come to you in due time.  I can't tell you anything about Gods timing because I don't understand anything about it, other than it is always perfect.

I was called to say those words to people that day, which is why I said them to you.  He did not tell me anything about timing; all I know you is that you will not be disappointed.

Servant of God, you said:
You can know Christ, personally, today, by calling upon His in prayer and asking Him to reveal Himself to you.
(my bold)

YOU said we can know him today, by following your instructions.  I followed them.  Nothing happened.  Now (because nothing happened?) you are changing your tune.  "Due time".  "Give it time".  The same prevarication that we have heard time and again from Christians.

And I take the time to follow their instructions - and every time.....nothing happens.  And then come the excuses.

So I ask you, servant of god.  Why did you say "You can know Christ, personally, today" if that was not really what you meant?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Nick on May 12, 2011, 05:17:41 AM
ServantofGod...if Christianity dod not exist which religion do you think you would have bought into?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Anfauglir on May 12, 2011, 05:26:53 AM
Servant of God, I give you your own words....(all bolds mine)

This is why today is the day to know Jesus Christ. 

He has set it on me to tell you that He will prove it to you.  Pray like this:  Jesus, if you're real, I want to know about it.  I want to know you.  Please let me know you're real.  God bless.

In any case, this is the reason I am here.  Jesus put it on my heart to come here and tell anyone who will listen that He will reveal Himself to anyone who calls upon His name in sincere prayer, to have a relationship with Him.  He gave me this word specifically:

Matthew 11:28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

So call out to Him and He will come.  I don't know anything about before, I just know now is the time.  God bless. 

I was told to come to this forum and tell anyone who will listen that Jesus will reveal Himself to anyone here who asks in sincere prayer.  .....  God will let you know.  Test Him and see.

I have not held back the truth, which is this:

You can know Christ, personally, today, by calling upon His in prayer and asking Him to reveal Himself to you.

....Jesus put it on my heart to tell you here that Jesus is calling to you now.  He is calling you to come to Him and know Him personally.  I believe you have sought sincerely, but try one more time.  You will not be disappointed.   God bless.

Jesus put it on my heart to come here and tell you, and anyone else here who will listen, that if you ask to know Him sincerely, if you pray to Him and ask if He is real, He will reveal Himself to you.  I know He is serious about it so please, try Him once more.  If you seek you will find.  

Servant of God, please look at everything you wrote.  Over and over again, the stress that God himself told you that NOW is the time, THIS TIME it will work, TODAY is the time.

And I did exactly what you told me to do.  And it didn't work.....and suddenly you change your tune to "well, keep trying, it will happen sometime, I don't know when, I don't know....."

I'm not following..how did I lie or cheat?

I think you know full well how.  You, over and over again, said "do THIS, and you will know Jesus NOW".  Now either you were lying in everything I have quoted above....or perhaps God was lying to you when He told YOU what to say to us.

I'll close with one final quote of yours, which you may want to think about.

Are you comfortable with being a liar?  If you're not, then tell ... the truth.  Otherwise you're nothing but a hypocrite. 



Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on May 12, 2011, 05:27:26 AM
Servantofgod, when you asked for permission to participate in this forum, you agreed to follow the forum's rules. Now you are breaking some of those rules.

Why did you lie when you signed up? Was it just ignorance?

And, now that you know preaching is against the forum rules ( I assume ignorance is your excuse). Now that you know making claims without evidenciary support is against forum rules, what are you going to do?  
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on May 12, 2011, 05:48:18 AM
What is this concept of fairness you have?  Do you think you can judge God?  He has the power of life and death.  He can demand your life at any time.

{snip}

This is getting tired... preaching, moving the goalposts, not backing up assertions.  Reported.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 12, 2011, 07:28:49 AM
You would shout it from the rooftops?  Those are beautiful words to hear.  I hope you remember them.  In regards to timing, give it time.  Just have faith that if He exists He heard you and will come to you in due time.  I can't tell you anything about Gods timing because I don't understand anything about it, other than it is always perfect.

I was called to say those words to people that day, which is why I said them to you.  He did not tell me anything about timing; all I know you is that you will not be disappointed.


Non Sequitur, Appeal to Emotion.

MORE DAKKA!
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Alzael on May 12, 2011, 07:37:20 AM
What is this concept of fairness you have?  Do you think you can judge God?  He has the power of life and death.  He can demand your life at any time.  Everything He does has a purpose, even if we are too ignorant to see it. 

Of course we can judge god. By his own admission we know good and evil like he does, so we're perfectly capable of judging him. The rest is just more of your cowardice showing. So what if god is powerful. Do you believe then that power alone gives one being the right to do whatever he wants to another? The same thing applies to a being who thinks that he knows better than you do. Do you then accept that your government has the right to kill you just because they feel like it? They have great power as well.

Luke 12:4-5

'I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him"

I seem to recall before you spouting a whole deal about god holding love as his ultimate commandment. Now all of a sudden you're playing the 'fear his terrible wrath' card. Could you at least keep your stories straight. It's amazing how two-faced Christianity is, isn't it? You can easily switch from talking about gods love to condemnations borne of petty terror. What's even worse is that you can't even appreciate the dissonance that you put on display for everyone else to see. This is not about whether we should fear, this is about your fear. Your fear that you aren't a special person. Your fear that nobody will validate your existence for you. Your fear that you might actually have to take responsibility for yourself and your own actions. This is about the fear that you feel deep down in your gut when you look in the mirror every morning and realize that you've defined your existence on this earth by the shallow words of an ancient and primitive old book of myths and fairytales written by goatherders, and that without that book your life is nothing. But more than anything else, it is about your own fear that if you gave up your belief in that book you would never find another purpose in life because you lack the ability to stand on your own.

Please do not assume that everyone shares your terror.

You don't fear God, you believe you will just die and it will be over, that you won't be held responsible for your sins..but when you do die your spirit will leave your body, and then you will be afraid.  Imagine what that will be like.  God could demand your life at any time.  Save yourself and come to Christ before it is too late.

Again you show your own fear here. Why are you so afraid of someone that you claim is so loving? Were you lying when you said that? Or are you lying now as you have lied about everything else?

In the end, it always comes down to the threats with people like you. The vague and malicious threats because you have nothing left to stand on after your words have been shown to be as substantial as a meringue. For what it's worth you truly have my pity.

So this nonsense about whether God has healed amputees or not is really just a mind game you play with believers.  It doesn't matter if God has healed amputees.  He can raise people from the dead.  It would be a lesser miracle in any sense to that.  You don't ask why hasn't God raised people from the dead?  That would be a more impressive demonstration, don't you think?

You came in here claiming that it had happened all sorts of times. In fact the name of this thread is about god healing amputees. In four pages you haven't provided any evidence at all. The truth is that you don't know whether we'd believe if you showed evidence or not, because no one has ever shown it. You're simply making an excuse for your inability to show evidence.

Why should we ask god for a more impressive miracle when he can't even perform the 'lesser' one? Really SoG, this is just sad by this point.

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Grimm on May 12, 2011, 08:04:42 AM
Servant -

Think of me - of us! - as children, if you like.  We begin with something of a blank slate, ready to receive your idea of God.  Unfortunately, you're not the only one trying to convince us.

What I see is you, among others, saying precisely the same thing to me that quite literally dozens of other believers have said, each one making the assumption that they were the first one to say it to me.  "Just pray," they say, "and God will reveal himself to you.  It's really very simple."  Well, I have.  Everyone here has.  I come from a believer's background, in fact, where I prayed and thought God had revealed himself, only to realize that what I thought was revelation was really only self-delusion.

That isn't to say that your personal revelation isn't - but I have nothing that says it is beyond your word.  Frankly, in something as important as My Immortal Soul, wouldn't you think it would be silly just to take someone's word for anything?  I need to see a little more than "it worked for me", just like any atheist does.

There is absolutely nothing you've said here that differentiates the truth of what you believe from the truth of what a Muslim, Mormon, Hindu, or Scientologist believes.  You have offered precisely the same evidence of truth that these faiths have - which is to say, nothing at all.

Your exhortation and threat to believe or fry is precisely equivalent to that of Islam.  Your statement of 'pray and it shall be revealed' matches up firmly with the revelation of Joseph Smith.  Your notion that god improves your life is equivalent to Scientology's 'tech'.

So tell me:  why should we believe you?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Add Homonym on May 12, 2011, 08:30:33 AM
It doesn't matter if God has healed amputees.  He can raise people from the dead.  It would be a lesser miracle in any sense to that.  You don't ask why hasn't God raised people from the dead?  That would be a more impressive demonstration, don't you think? 

There is an important subtlety here that people have missed. (EDIT:except Alzael) SOG is quite right, bringing people back from the dead is an achievement, but healing an arm is rather trivial, because even some axolotls can do it. We may even have the technology to do it within a few years. So, what SOG has pointed out is that God can't do something trivial.

Quote
The truth is, since you don't believe the scriptures it doesn't matter what miracle God does..it will never convince you.

Oh, this is truth is it!

So, turning the sun red, moving Jupiter to another orbit and skywriting "I AM GOD AND THE BIBLE IS TRUE" (using comets), resurrecting JFK, taking out all the atheists to be spanked by the grim reaper, making the sky rain Tyrannosaurus Rexes, would not convince any atheists that God existed!

Tsk tsk. They are a stubborn lot.

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: plethora on May 12, 2011, 08:31:49 AM
God can do anything, God isn't limited.  Your supposition is that God doesn't even exist.  So this nonsense about whether God has healed amputees or not is really just a mind game you play with believers.  It doesn't matter if God has healed amputees.  He can raise people from the dead.  It would be a lesser miracle in any sense to that.  You don't ask why hasn't God raised people from the dead?  That would be a more impressive demonstration, don't you think? 

The truth is, since you don't believe the scriptures it doesn't matter what miracle God does..it will never convince you.

You're right. God does exist and he can do anything. Scripture says so and if you believe scripture then you know it's true.

The scripture says he answers prayers right here:

"When My servants ask thee [O Muhammad] concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way."
(Sura 2 - Ayat 186)


Here are some more enlightening verses from scripture that you'll find compelling:

"Whosoever chooses to follow guidance, follows it for his own good; whosoever goes astray, goes astray to his own loss."
(al-Isra’ 17: 15)


"Whosoever holds fast to God, he has been guided onto the Straight Path.
(al-Imran 3: 101)


Especially this one:

"And they say, ‘None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian.’ These are their wishful beliefs. Say, ‘Produce your evidence if what you say is true!’
Nay, whosoever surrenders his whole being unto God, and is a doer of good, shall have his reward from his Lord; on them shall be no fear, neither shall they sorrow."
(al-Baqarah 2: 111-12)



So clearly servantofgod, you are a Muslim who believes in Allah and accepts Muhammad as his prophet and fasts during the month of Ramadan, correct?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Death over Life on May 12, 2011, 09:19:37 AM
Life from Death, witness the parable of the sower:

Lets start with this: DEATH OVER LIFE, NOT LIFE FROM DEATH. My username is a DEATH WORSHIPPING USERNAME, not a LIFE WORSHIPPING username. Please, if you don’t wish to abbreviate my username, and you really want me to take you seriously, GET MY NAME RIGHT 1ST!

While a large crowd was gathering and people were coming to Jesus from town after town, he told this parable: 5 “A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds ate it up. 6 Some fell on rocky ground, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up with it and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown

When he said this, he called out, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”

This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

Here is the thing, we are not children, the atheists here know far more about the Bible than you can even begin to understand, and that even includes me.

Yes, I already know about the parable. And you really messed up your testimony with your’ personal commentary, let me show you:

Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

The “Devil”. I’m sorry, but there is no personal devil that is really anti-God. Your’ good vs. evil concept is a Zoroastrian concept. Go read the Book of Job, where they show you your’ devil Satan is really one of God’s most trusted and faithful servants. Ch. 1 of Job is a great start!

Salvation, from what? God? So God sent His son to save us from Himself so we can be with Him for all eternity? Circular logic that makes no sense.

The rest of the parable, yes, you got the meaning of the parable! Congratulations!

The passage I highlighted applies to you.  Here is your answer:

John 6:39

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

Jesus has not forgotten you.  He has not abandoned you, and He will not give you up to the evil one.  Though you have forsaken Him, He has never forsaken you. 

Brother, I was elected.  God is more real to me than I am to myself.  No lie will darken the light I have been given by our Lord Jesus Christ.  Though you are deceived, you will be delivered from evil.  God bless.

Not even in your Christian Bible, is there a good vs. evil. It’s a Zoroastrian concept. Stop plagiarizing please.

Though you are deceived, you will be delivered from evil.

Coming from you, that is a compliment! Thank you!


God bless.

God Bless atheism indeed!

Sog, next time you want to talk to me, since your OP has stated you have proof of God healing amputees, please stop the preaching and show me some god damned evidence for once in your life.

Stop quoting Scriptures. The atheists know far more than you do. Stop preaching the Bible. Many here have read the Bible cover to cover with the Quran, with the Avesta, with many other religious books you can think of.

Please stop using the Bible as evidence, as the Bible has no evidence of anything. They are stories made up by man to brainwash and control you so you will not only get the fullest out of life, but will live a living hell while you are alive till you are dead and only once you are dead will you find out you’ve been lied to, and since you won’t exist anymore, you can’t say to yourself, man, I wish I lived a different life than what I did live.

The Bible has no evidence of what it validates, but if you bring us real proof that God heals amputees as your OP says and your claim that says you do, and you show it, I promise you I will retract every mean, harsh statement I’ve made, will issue a formal apology, and go back to Christianity in a heartbeat (if you show that it is the Christian God that did this and not Enki, nor Nergal, nor Baal, nor Thor, nor Odin, nor Loki, nor Zeus, nor Hercules, nor Hades, nor Shiva, nor Vishnu, nor Krishna, nor Moloch, nor Marduk, nor Poseidon, nor Ares, nor Quetzalcoatl etc.)
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Don_Quixote on May 12, 2011, 03:53:32 PM
Loved that last post ^  &)
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: mram on May 12, 2011, 04:31:48 PM
Hmmmmmm.. God sent god to save us from god.. I wonder if I can walk into a bank with a loaded gun, walk up to a teller and tell them I'm there to save them from me robbing them.. I bet I get the key to the city.  &)
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Astreja on May 12, 2011, 09:16:28 PM
You don't fear God, you believe you will just die and it will be over, that you won't be held responsible for your sins..but when you do die your spirit will leave your body, and then you will be afraid.  Imagine what that will be like.  God could demand your life at any time.  Save yourself and come to Christ before it is too late.
Unsupported assertion and argumentum ad baculum -- In a nutshell, nothing more or less than psychological terrorism.

And here is My response:  Heaven, Hell and My Bodhisattva Vow (http://testimonials.exchristian.net/2007/05/heaven-hell-and-my-bodhisattva-vow.html).  Please read it all the way through, Servantofgod.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 12, 2011, 10:01:27 PM
I know you're hurt, and I am sorry.  Every atheist here knows they are seperated from Gods love.  That's why they're so angry.  They desire that more than anything and they've all admitted it, even fessing up to praying to Him.  You've admitted it as well..and you know what you're doing isn't right.  You're doing this because you are angry at your seperation and this is your rebellion.

You know God is real, and so does everyone else here.  You also know that you're guilty.  Well I'll tell you what..throwing a fit isn't going to change anything.  You can stomp and cry and rage against Jesus from now until your death...it won't change a thing.  You'll still be guilty and rightly so.

You worship death now because you want to be released.  You hope with all your heart that death is the end so that you won't be judged.  So does everyone else here.  They all know they're guilty, just like you do.  Satan has caused you to do such vile and wretched things against Jesus, the one who loves you completely, that you probably feel now that you can never be forgiven.

Well, His love is bigger than your hate.  Much bigger.  When you finally realize that, you will let go of your anger, and stop your rebellion.  You've given yourself over to be a slave of the evil one.  You are lovers of death, because that is all he offers.  Somewhere, in your heart, you know how far you've fallen.

Well, there is forgiveness for you, for all the people here.  The devil has convinced you you're not worth saving, that God has betrayed you..yet, He never once gave up on you.  He is always trying to reach you, you in your shame just won't pick up the line.  You come to this place to reinforce it, but you know inside its a pack of lies.

Deny what you will, God knows your heart.  You can lie to yourself but you can't lie to him.  You will be in my prayers.  God bless.


Life from Death, witness the parable of the sower:

Lets start with this: DEATH OVER LIFE, NOT LIFE FROM DEATH. My username is a DEATH WORSHIPPING USERNAME, not a LIFE WORSHIPPING username. Please, if you don’t wish to abbreviate my username, and you really want me to take you seriously, GET MY NAME RIGHT 1ST!

While a large crowd was gathering and people were coming to Jesus from town after town, he told this parable: 5 “A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds ate it up. 6 Some fell on rocky ground, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up with it and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown

When he said this, he called out, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”

This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

Here is the thing, we are not children, the atheists here know far more about the Bible than you can even begin to understand, and that even includes me.

Yes, I already know about the parable. And you really messed up your testimony with your’ personal commentary, let me show you:

Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

The “Devil”. I’m sorry, but there is no personal devil that is really anti-God. Your’ good vs. evil concept is a Zoroastrian concept. Go read the Book of Job, where they show you your’ devil Satan is really one of God’s most trusted and faithful servants. Ch. 1 of Job is a great start!

Salvation, from what? God? So God sent His son to save us from Himself so we can be with Him for all eternity? Circular logic that makes no sense.

The rest of the parable, yes, you got the meaning of the parable! Congratulations!

The passage I highlighted applies to you.  Here is your answer:

John 6:39

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

Jesus has not forgotten you.  He has not abandoned you, and He will not give you up to the evil one.  Though you have forsaken Him, He has never forsaken you. 

Brother, I was elected.  God is more real to me than I am to myself.  No lie will darken the light I have been given by our Lord Jesus Christ.  Though you are deceived, you will be delivered from evil.  God bless.

Not even in your Christian Bible, is there a good vs. evil. It’s a Zoroastrian concept. Stop plagiarizing please.

Though you are deceived, you will be delivered from evil.

Coming from you, that is a compliment! Thank you!


God bless.

God Bless atheism indeed!

Sog, next time you want to talk to me, since your OP has stated you have proof of God healing amputees, please stop the preaching and show me some god damned evidence for once in your life.

Stop quoting Scriptures. The atheists know far more than you do. Stop preaching the Bible. Many here have read the Bible cover to cover with the Quran, with the Avesta, with many other religious books you can think of.

Please stop using the Bible as evidence, as the Bible has no evidence of anything. They are stories made up by man to brainwash and control you so you will not only get the fullest out of life, but will live a living hell while you are alive till you are dead and only once you are dead will you find out you’ve been lied to, and since you won’t exist anymore, you can’t say to yourself, man, I wish I lived a different life than what I did live.

The Bible has no evidence of what it validates, but if you bring us real proof that God heals amputees as your OP says and your claim that says you do, and you show it, I promise you I will retract every mean, harsh statement I’ve made, will issue a formal apology, and go back to Christianity in a heartbeat (if you show that it is the Christian God that did this and not Enki, nor Nergal, nor Baal, nor Thor, nor Odin, nor Loki, nor Zeus, nor Hercules, nor Hades, nor Shiva, nor Vishnu, nor Krishna, nor Moloch, nor Marduk, nor Poseidon, nor Ares, nor Quetzalcoatl etc.)
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 12, 2011, 10:06:06 PM
My words are true.  If you come to Christ with a sincere heart, He will open the door to you.  You don't know how He is working in your life.  You may not perceive a difference because of your vast and endless unbelief.  Yet, if you prayed with a sincere heart, the door is open and you will perceive that when you open your eyes to the truth.  How long that will take is entirely between you and Him.

Servant of God, I give you your own words....(all bolds mine)

This is why today is the day to know Jesus Christ. 

He has set it on me to tell you that He will prove it to you.  Pray like this:  Jesus, if you're real, I want to know about it.  I want to know you.  Please let me know you're real.  God bless.

In any case, this is the reason I am here.  Jesus put it on my heart to come here and tell anyone who will listen that He will reveal Himself to anyone who calls upon His name in sincere prayer, to have a relationship with Him.  He gave me this word specifically:

Matthew 11:28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

So call out to Him and He will come.  I don't know anything about before, I just know now is the time.  God bless. 

I was told to come to this forum and tell anyone who will listen that Jesus will reveal Himself to anyone here who asks in sincere prayer.  .....  God will let you know.  Test Him and see.

I have not held back the truth, which is this:

You can know Christ, personally, today, by calling upon His in prayer and asking Him to reveal Himself to you.

....Jesus put it on my heart to tell you here that Jesus is calling to you now.  He is calling you to come to Him and know Him personally.  I believe you have sought sincerely, but try one more time.  You will not be disappointed.   God bless.

Jesus put it on my heart to come here and tell you, and anyone else here who will listen, that if you ask to know Him sincerely, if you pray to Him and ask if He is real, He will reveal Himself to you.  I know He is serious about it so please, try Him once more.  If you seek you will find.  

Servant of God, please look at everything you wrote.  Over and over again, the stress that God himself told you that NOW is the time, THIS TIME it will work, TODAY is the time.

And I did exactly what you told me to do.  And it didn't work.....and suddenly you change your tune to "well, keep trying, it will happen sometime, I don't know when, I don't know....."

I'm not following..how did I lie or cheat?

I think you know full well how.  You, over and over again, said "do THIS, and you will know Jesus NOW".  Now either you were lying in everything I have quoted above....or perhaps God was lying to you when He told YOU what to say to us.

I'll close with one final quote of yours, which you may want to think about.

Are you comfortable with being a liar?  If you're not, then tell ... the truth.  Otherwise you're nothing but a hypocrite. 
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 12, 2011, 10:08:32 PM
Well, I'm sorry for breaking the rules.  I won't post anymore.  God bless.

Servantofgod, when you asked for permission to participate in this forum, you agreed to follow the forum's rules. Now you are breaking some of those rules.

Why did you lie when you signed up? Was it just ignorance?

And, now that you know preaching is against the forum rules ( I assume ignorance is your excuse). Now that you know making claims without evidenciary support is against forum rules, what are you going to do?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Dante on May 12, 2011, 10:27:40 PM
You should be sorry, you arrog!ntt Fuck. You should be sorry that you don't live in reality, and that this life is so meaningless to you. We're not angry with god, you fucking moron. We're  frustated that you don't use the brain you have to fugure out how to live a good life without your imaginary friend. It's fucking pathetic.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Alzael on May 12, 2011, 10:41:03 PM
You can lie to yourself but you can't lie to him.  You will be in my prayers.  God bless.

You've done far more than enough lying for everyone here. But what good is a troll without a place to troll in, right?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Nick on May 12, 2011, 10:44:04 PM
Well, I see we have moved into the God is real but we are angry at Him phase of things.  Why is it so hard for Christians to understand that we really do not believe in a sky daddy?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Add Homonym on May 12, 2011, 10:45:46 PM
even fessing up to praying to Him.

Oh, yeah. I didn't get around to praying for you. It's just something I said to be condescending.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Emily on May 12, 2011, 10:56:03 PM
I know you're hurt, and I am sorry.  Every atheist here knows they are seperated from Gods love.  That's why they're so angry.

This makes you seem like a complete douche bag. I am not angry at god because he doesn't exist; I am angry at assholes that think atheists are angry at their god simply because those people have not given good enough reason to believe in their god. At the end of the night, after discussion can go no further, and when people start throwing the whole "you're angry at god" crap all that's left is think of that person as a complete douchebag for being judgmental of us. It's not our fault your god seems to not exist. It's not our fault you haven't given convincing proof he exists. It's not our fault his holy book reads more like fiction that something divinely inspired

. Even if we are angry at god (which we aren't) he deserves our anger. It's not our fault we can't live up to his expectations of us. No one can. That's why christians say they need to be "saved" - because you fail to live up to "god's" expectations. Well, I am in no need of a savior, and even if I was I have a long, long list of people in my cell-phone who I can call who'll come to my aid much quicker than god can. In one dial I can call my youngest sister and she'll help me out in a heart beat and a blink of an eye, but when it comes to praying to god he puts us on his waiting list.

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Well, His love is bigger than your hate.  Much bigger.  When you finally realize that, you will let go of your anger, and stop your rebellion.  You've given yourself over to be a slave of the evil one.  You are lovers of death, because that is all he offers.  Somewhere, in your heart, you know how far you've fallen.

Get a clue with reality and stop judging us for your lack of convincing proof you god is real.

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Well, there is forgiveness for you, for all the people here.

I have not done anything wrong and I haven't hurt anyone, so I don't need forgiveness.

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You will be in my prayers.  God bless.

Please don't pray for me. I don't want your prayers.

And seriously, are you really going to say a prayer for those "horrible atheists" are WWGHA tonight? I hightly doubt it. First: you don't know me, so you have no right to pray for me; second: I find it rude for you to even suggest to your god that he imposes on my life, because your god deserves no worship from anyone. He's a cruel, sadistic, egotistic monster. My proof - the holy bible.


Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Avatar Of Belial on May 12, 2011, 10:59:52 PM
I know you're hurt, and I am sorry.

Wow... how pathetic your life must be to need this safety blanket so much.
How ignorant you must be to come to others you don't have the first clue about and pretend to understand them.
How utterly incompetent you are to arrive with the largest know-it-all attitude and display even less knowledge than the average rock, when speaking to people who have had years of experience with not only your fairy tale, but other, far more internally-consistent ones as well.

What were you hoping to accomplish? Did you need to feel like your God was validated? You don't even understand your own Holy Book. You lie and twist and hide from the simplest of truths : that your god, if he were to exist, is evil filth not fit to lick a leper's feet. You have displayed contempt for intelligence, honesty, integrity, as well as a variety of other things that are considered "Good".

Do you seek to be an embarrassment to your species? Do you enjoy being a mindless drone, to be manipulated by a fairy tale? Why do you inflict this drivel on others? Can you even come up with a unique thought that hasn't been plagiarized from the thousands of theists before you who have tried this?

I would pity you, but I would prefer to reserve it for a creature who deserves it. Your stupidity is self-inflicted, and now that you realize that no-one will fall for your excuses for the horror presented by your religion; you run away.
How. Bloody. Typical.

Your own words, even ignoring the bible, show your god to be a petty, inconsistent, attention-seeking whore who play favorites. Or perhaps this is just another case of S.P.A.G. - Self-Projection As God.


Good luck with that conceited delusion of yours.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Add Homonym on May 12, 2011, 11:18:31 PM
Please don't pray for me. I don't want your prayers.

I'm pretty sure he just said it to be condescending.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Astreja on May 12, 2011, 11:44:37 PM
Every atheist here knows they are seperated from Gods love.
False.  It's absurd to feel a sense of separation from something that we think is imaginary.  Do you feel a sense of separation from the Invisible Pink Unicorn (mHhhnbs)?

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You know God is real, and so does everyone else here.
False.  I, for one, 'know' no such thing.  It's insufferably rude to pretend to read other peoples' minds.

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You also know that you're guilty.
Poppycock.

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Well, there is forgiveness for you, for all the people here.
If you actually took the time to read My Ex-timony you will have learned that, if your god and its hell actually exist (but I very much doubt it) I have taken a vow to reject that forgiveness.

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You will be in my prayers.
(sighs heavily) Fine.  In exchange, I shall pray to Me on your behalf.

*Ahem*

"O Astreja, Goddess of the Vernal Equinox (northern hemisphere only), chocolate, punctuation and Random Equipment malfunctions, loose cannon of the Æsir and the best d@mn meadmaker in Winnipeg!  Hear Thou My petition.

"May the individual known as Servantofgod see questions where once there were answers; see mythology where once there was historical truth; and grasp for one terrifying instant the whole of eternity as Thou hast seen when picking threads out of a gold chenile bedspread in Thy twelfth year.

"And may this unwanted knowledge rock Servantofgod to the very foundations of his world, that he might come to his senses and join the rest of us in the real world."

(passes papers to Dad and to dear, sweet uncle Loki for notarization)  Done deal.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: hickdive on May 13, 2011, 01:31:00 AM
I won't post anymore.  God bless.

In other words, you can't answer my question or anyone else's and now you're going off in a hissy fit because you've been rumbled.

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Bagheera on May 13, 2011, 02:22:48 AM
People like servantofgod frighten me. This kind of relentless wilful blindness just screams mental illness.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Anfauglir on May 13, 2011, 03:24:15 AM
My words are true.  If you come to Christ with a sincere heart, He will open the door to you.  You don't know how He is working in your life.  You may not perceive a difference because of your vast and endless unbelief.  Yet, if you prayed with a sincere heart, the door is open and you will perceive that when you open your eyes to the truth.  How long that will take is entirely between you and Him.

Soggy, that is completely different from what you said before, which I quote again for truth below.  Note especially the part which is bold and in huge text....

I have not held back the truth, which is this:

You can know Christ, personally, today, by calling upon His in prayer and asking Him to reveal Himself to you.

You said I would know Christ, personally, today.  NOT that I might perceive nothing because I miss a couple of signs of "open doors".

The question is this: why did your claim change so dramatically when it was proved false?  Grow some balls and admit that you changed your story as soon as we showed you your claims were false, instead of this soggy and wishy-washy goalpost shifting.  Because frankly, all you are doing is reinforcing the belief that Christians are liars....and that there IS no god.

If God revealed Himself to you, would you witness to these people?  Would you put down your pride as an intellectual and preach His gospel to the lost sheep? 

If I pray, and I get a response, then I will let everyone know.  I am not a fearful coward who will speak in public only those things he has held dear.  If I were visited by Christ, I would shout if from the rooftops.

You would shout it from the rooftops?  Those are beautiful words to hear.  I hope you remember them. 

Oh, I will - and I hope you will remember them too.  Because, Servant of God, here's the thing: it cuts both ways.  When someone tries to sell me something that may be the elixir of life, or may be just snake oil, I will be honest in my testimony.  If I'm sold a genuine, jim-dandy miracle cure that does what it says on the tin, then I will shout it from the rooftops, I will give all credit when credit is due.

But here's the thing: if someone sells me snake oil, then that too will be shouted from the rooftops.  If I am given a firm and specific promise.....and the promise is broken....and when I go back to the seller I get fobbed off and told "I never said that!" when clearly (see my two posts above) they DID say that......well, then I likewise will shout from the rooftops that this person lies, this person breaks their promises, this person offers something quite specific that turns out to be hogwash.  Oh yes, I will make THAT known as well.

Servant of God, you made a string of very specific, very clear promises, and gave instructions that I and others followed to the letterAnd nothing happened.  So right now, servant of god, I am shouting from the rooftops that what you are selling is moonshine.  Fairy dust. 

So when you said "You can know Christ, personally, today", the only question is this:

Did YOU lie when you said that to us, or did your god lie when he said it to you?

Which shall I shout from the rooftops?  That you lie, or your god lies?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Anfauglir on May 13, 2011, 03:42:36 AM
I know you're hurt, and I am sorry.  Every atheist here knows they are seperated from Gods love.  That's why they're so angry.  They desire that more than anything and they've all admitted it, even fessing up to praying to Him. 

I fully expected this whine - the usual Christian attempt at a "win-win" rigged game.  They come here and say "try to pray".  If we do not, they can claim we are blinkered and closed-minded.  If we do pray, they play the "see, you KNOW god is real!" card.  Its a familiar game from Christians, who know full well that if an atheist chooses to play their game, they can claim victory - glossing over, of course, the fact that every atheist who takes them up and DOES pray experiences absolutely nothing as a result.

You know God is real, and so does everyone else here. 

Nope.  But I am always - ALWAYS - prepared to give it a go, when a specific claim is made and specific instructions are offered.  I've done it before, with Christians and Muslims alike.  If there IS a god - whatever god that may be - then I want to know it.  Of course I do!  If there is a god, it is the most important piece of information there could be in how I live my life!  So I follow the instructions whenever they get specific.  But guess what happens every time I do?  Yup, nothing happens....and the goalpost shifting starts, followed normally (as you have quite predictably done here) by the disengaging and claims of how wrong we are.....how wrong we are indeed, not to ignore the many times that "answer came there none".

His love is bigger than your hate.  Much bigger.  .....there is forgiveness for you, for all the people here.  .....He never once gave up on you.  He is always trying to reach you...

Heh.  Funny then how when I honestly and sincerely open the channles, there is such a resounding silence that comes back.  I find it quite amazing that you can make all the conflicting claims you do.  That a god that loves us and is always trying to reach us and who we can know, personally, TODAY (your words, remember)......nevertheless will not answer until some unspecified time in the future.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: grant on May 13, 2011, 05:54:42 AM
I know you're hurt, and I am sorry.  Every atheist here knows they are seperated from Gods love.  That's why they're so angry.  They desire that more than anything and they've all admitted it, even fessing up to praying to Him.  You've admitted it as well..and you know what you're doing isn't right.  You're doing this because you are angry at your seperation and this is your rebellion.

You know God is real, and so does everyone else here.  You also know that you're guilty.  Well I'll tell you what..throwing a fit isn't going to change anything.  You can stomp and cry and rage against Jesus from now until your death...it won't change a thing.  You'll still be guilty and rightly so.

You worship death now because you want to be released.  You hope with all your heart that death is the end so that you won't be judged.  So does everyone else here.  They all know they're guilty, just like you do.  Satan has caused you to do such vile and wretched things against Jesus, the one who loves you completely, that you probably feel now that you can never be forgiven.

Well, His love is bigger than your hate.  Much bigger.  When you finally realize that, you will let go of your anger, and stop your rebellion.  You've given yourself over to be a slave of the evil one.  You are lovers of death, because that is all he offers.  Somewhere, in your heart, you know how far you've fallen.

Well, there is forgiveness for you, for all the people here.  The devil has convinced you you're not worth saving, that God has betrayed you..yet, He never once gave up on you.  He is always trying to reach you, you in your shame just won't pick up the line.  You come to this place to reinforce it, but you know inside its a pack of lies.

Deny what you will, God knows your heart.  You can lie to yourself but you can't lie to him.  You will be in my prayers.  God bless.


Well, that's about the BEST post EVER.

I'll rewrite it:

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YOU'RE ALL GOD HATING LIARS AND DEATH SATAN WORSHIPERS! GOD EXISTS I TELL YOU! HONEST! REPENT OR BURN IN HELL!

I hope you spend lots of time praying for us... lots. Might get you off the internet spewing forth such absolute rubbish, because that's all it is friend, verbal diarrhea. Have you ever stopped to think for a minute? That's right, just one minute? It's all it takes to expose you're beliefs as delusional, if you have the brain power and clarity of thought to realistically look at it. Take a step back and consider what you're saying. It's as equally stupid for every god ever, if not more so.

And when I ask for one minute, I ask for the whole 60 seconds, don't give up. Give it a go.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 13, 2011, 07:44:37 AM
Please don't pray for me. I don't want your prayers.

I'm pretty sure he just said it to be condescending.

It is pretty much the end play for most theists who have been beaten. I learned a saying from usenet about 15 years ago: "Condecending Peity is the last refuge of the beaten"
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Anfauglir on May 13, 2011, 07:54:17 AM
Please don't pray for me. I don't want your prayers.

I'm pretty sure he just said it to be condescending.

It is pretty much the end play for most theists who have been beaten. I learned a saying from usenet about 15 years ago: "Condecending Peity is the last refuge of the beaten"

It tends to be employed when they are feeling deeply shaken in their beliefs, as a way of reinforcing their status as a special snowflake.  After several posts saying "things will happen in god's own time", he is now saying that his prayers will cause god to alter his plans and make us all Christians, JUST because Soggy has asked him to.

That's how special a snowflake Soggy is!  No matter what god's plan is, he will change it just because Soggy asks!  One has to wonder - just who is who's Servant here?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: plethora on May 13, 2011, 07:55:50 AM
That's how special a snowflake Soggy is!  No matter what god's plan is, he will change it just because Soggy asks!  One has to wonder - just who is who's Servant here?

He's a servant to himself... via SPAG.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on May 13, 2011, 08:00:08 AM
My words are true.  If you come to Christ with a sincere heart, He will open the door to you.  You don't know how He is working in your life.  You may not perceive a difference because of your vast and endless unbelief.  Yet, if you prayed with a sincere heart, the door is open and you will perceive that when you open your eyes to the truth.  How long that will take is entirely between you and Him.

Whenever I read something like this, in my mind, I always end up hearing that "mwah mwah, mwah mwah mwah mwah, mwah" sound that they use in the Charlie Brown specials when grownups are talking.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 13, 2011, 08:09:40 AM
My words are true.  If you come to Christ with a sincere heart, He will open the door to you.  You don't know how He is working in your life.  You may not perceive a difference because of your vast and endless unbelief.  Yet, if you prayed with a sincere heart, the door is open and you will perceive that when you open your eyes to the truth.  How long that will take is entirely between you and Him.

Whenever I read something like this, in my mind, I always end up hearing that "mwah mwah, mwah mwah mwah mwah, mwah" sound that they use in the Charlie Brown specials when grownups are talking.

Funny, sometimes that, but sometimes I think of the angry spooky nun from The Blues Brothers.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on May 13, 2011, 08:12:29 AM
Every atheist here knows they are seperated from Gods love.

Yes, well, Zeus is a fickle man.

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That's why they're so angry.

No, that's not why we're angry.  This (http://"http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2007/10/atheists-and-an.html) is why we're angry.

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They desire that more than anything and they've all admitted it, even fessing up to praying to Him.

Holy mackerel... hypocrite much?  You challenge us to "ask Yahweh to show himself to us", we accept your challenge -- proving you wrong in the process, by the way -- and then you sneer at us for it?  --The Terminator scans over his list of responses and decides on the correct one: "Fuck you, asshole."

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You know God is real, and so does everyone else here.  You also know that you're guilty.

Let me give you a tip that will probably get you pretty far in life: people don't like to be told what they think, what they feel, or what they know, especially when the person making the declaration is wrong.

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Well I'll tell you what..throwing a fit isn't going to change anything.

Then why are you throwing one?

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You worship death now because you want to be released.  You hope with all your heart that death is the end so that you won't be judged.  So does everyone else here.  They all know they're guilty, just like you do.

See above re: telling people what they think and feel.

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Satan has caused you to do such vile and wretched things against Jesus, the one who loves you completely, that you probably feel now that you can never be forgiven.

If Satan is forcing me to be the way I am, then obviously, I have no need to be forgiven for whatever I've done or am doing, because it's not my fault.

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Well, His love is bigger than your hate.  Much bigger.

Are we talking about Yahweh or Barney?

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When you finally realize that, you will let go of your anger, and stop your rebellion.  You've given yourself over to be a slave of the evil one.  You are lovers of death, because that is all he offers.  Somewhere, in your heart, you know how far you've fallen.

Third time: you really shouldn't tell people what they think or feel -- or, in this case, how they're going to feel in the future.  It's really obnoxious.

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Well, there is forgiveness for you, for all the people here.  The devil has convinced you you're not worth saving, that God has betrayed you..yet, He never once gave up on you.  He is always trying to reach you, you in your shame just won't pick up the line.  You come to this place to reinforce it, but you know inside its a pack of lies.

Fourth time.

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Deny what you will, God knows your heart.  You can lie to yourself but you can't lie to him.

I can't lie to Santa Claus, either.  So what?

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You will be in my prayers.  God bless.

You know, when people say that they'll pray for me and it's clear that they're saying it out of genuine concern for me, it doesn't bother me... actually, I find myself appreciating the gesture, useless though I know it is.  Here, though, you're just being a condescending snob.  Knock it off.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on May 13, 2011, 08:16:50 AM
I know you're hurt, and I am sorry.  Every atheist here knows they are seperated from Gods love.  That's why they're so angry.  They desire that more than anything and they've all admitted it, even fessing up to praying to Him. 

I fully expected this whine - the usual Christian attempt at a "win-win" rigged game.  They come here and say "try to pray".  If we do not, they can claim we are blinkered and closed-minded.  If we do pray, they play the "see, you KNOW god is real!" card.  Its a familiar game from Christians, who know full well that if an atheist chooses to play their game, they can claim victory - glossing over, of course, the fact that every atheist who takes them up and DOES pray experiences absolutely nothing as a result.

It was a new one on me; hadn't seen it before.  Won't happen again, though.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Grimm on May 13, 2011, 08:19:12 AM
I know you're hurt, and I am sorry.  Every atheist here knows they are seperated from Gods love.  That's why they're so angry.

I'm not hurt.  I have no idea why you're apologizing.  And.. uh.  No.  I'm not separated from anything meaningful, and I"m not angry in the slightest. 

I don't mean to offend you, but I'm just not angry.  I don't 'know' these things you say I know.  It is a bit prideful of you to make the assumption that you know 'em, however.  What kind of person does it take to assign motivations to others without bothering to even try to understand them or their point of view?

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They desire that more than anything and they've all admitted it, even fessing up to praying to Him.  You've admitted it as well..and you know what you're doing isn't right.  You're doing this because you are angry at your seperation and this is your rebellion.

Actually, no.  I started as a believer, just like you.  I was raised in the Church, and came to realize that the doctrines of God rang hollowly.  The more hollow they felt, the more I searched for truth, and the more I searched for truth, the less substance they had.  Eventually, I discovered that I'd looked so hard for the supernatural that I'd seen 'behind the curtain', so to speak, and no longer believed in the faith of my parents, or their parents.

I searched for meaning in other systems, then, desperate to cling to some idea of God.  Bhuddism, Taoism, Mormonism, Islam, Shinto - I tried anything I could read about, and then some.  In the end, however, I had to lay it all aside:  if we are seekers of truth, and the truth invariably points to a conclusion despite our wishes, do we go with our wishes or the conclusion? 

I chose to follow truth, wherever it led.  It led me to nonbelief, and I've never been happier... or more responsible for my own existence and meaning. 

Again I say, I'm not angry.  The motives you assign me are false, but that's alright.  You need to assign those motives to explain why prayer isn't working for people like me, or you'll lose your own faith.   You don't want truth - you want the comfort of conclusions that stereotype and belittle so that you can feel superior and secure in your own belief.  So it goes.


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You know God is real, and so does everyone else here.  You also know that you're guilty.  Well I'll tell you what..throwing a fit isn't going to change anything.  You can stomp and cry and rage against Jesus from now until your death...it won't change a thing.  You'll still be guilty and rightly so.

I know God isn't real, actually - and so do most here.  I"m not at all guilty, and I'm not throwing tantrums or raging against Jesus anymore than you rage against Zeus.  I have committed no crime, done no harm, and I live the best life I can - no one can ask more of me than that.

Your stereotyping remains just stereotyping.

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You worship death now because you want to be released.  You hope with all your heart that death is the end so that you won't be judged.  So does everyone else here.  They all know they're guilty, just like you do.  Satan has caused you to do such vile and wretched things against Jesus, the one who loves you completely, that you probably feel now that you can never be forgiven.

What vile thing have I done?  In what possible way do I worship death?  How am I guilty?  You put these words together, but I have no conception of what you're really trying to say, even as you judge and condemn me.   I simply don't believe as you do, and I once did - I am apostate, I suppose, and that's dangerous for your faith.

But why do you judge me?  Your faith explicitly warns you against it.  Glass houses, planks, praying in private - remember all of those verses?  I do, from my time as one of the faithful.  Given that, and given the amount of venom you offer here, I have to ask:  why do you hate me?  What have I done to you beyond simply disagree on an internet forum?

How is it that you, who profess to be faithful, judge and condemn though your own faith condemns it? 

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Well, His love is bigger than your hate.  Much bigger.  When you finally realize that, you will let go of your anger, and stop your rebellion.  You've given yourself over to be a slave of the evil one.  You are lovers of death, because that is all he offers.  Somewhere, in your heart, you know how far you've fallen.

I have no idea what you're saying here.  I don't believe in your god - that doesn't mean I run around eating babies or killing people.  Rather, I do my best to make the world around me a better place, in whatever way I can.  My reach is somewhat limited, I admit, but that doesn't mean that my life, when others remember it, can't be judged well.

I wonder, sometimes, that if some being like Satan actually existed, whether he would find more joy in your abject condemnation or my quiet disbelief and work in the now.  On some comparitive scale, what is more evil:  expressing your certainty that people are evil and calling them fearful, lost, and hate-filled while declaring their destiny in everlasting torture, or not believing in God while you work to clear your neighbor's roads after tornados blast through a neighborhood?

Hmm.

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Well, there is forgiveness for you, for all the people here.  The devil has convinced you you're not worth saving, that God has betrayed you..yet, He never once gave up on you.  He is always trying to reach you, you in your shame just won't pick up the line.  You come to this place to reinforce it, but you know inside its a pack of lies.

I'm not entirely certain I'm the one that needs forgiving.  I do, however, forgive you for your vitriol and cruelty - you barely understand your own faith, while trying to prosleytize to others.  I understand where you are, and I understand that you simply cannot see anything outside of your paradigm as good.  I'm sorry for you for that, and I hope one day you'll realize that the message you're professing here isn't one of love and hope.  You're preaching a gospel of extortion, cruelty, and threat.

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Deny what you will, God knows your heart.  You can lie to yourself but you can't lie to him.  You will be in my prayers.  God bless.

Your pride is remarkable, and very sad.  You have described me without knowing me, so secure in your own faith that you cannot imagine someone else being something other than you've been taught we are.  Your vision of the world is one in which absolutes, stereotypes, and poorly-understood, feel-good faith color everything you do, while you really do nothing.

I wonder which of us is really more deluded.  Even if I am wrong, then I will be judged for my disbelief - my works should stand under scrutiny.  On the other hand, you will be judged by your pride, your hypocracy, and your callousness - which of us will have the hotter corner, do you think?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: William on May 13, 2011, 08:37:00 AM
They all know they're guilty, just like you do.

You have no evidence that I'm guilty of anything, nor of my thoughts.
This is a reflection of your own obsequious cowering before an imagenary God made palatable to you only by your perceived superiority over me.

You have no self-esteem.  You have no insight. 
You are mistaken.  Yet you are arrogant to the point of being disgusting.

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: rev45 on May 13, 2011, 09:40:03 AM
These exchanges with SOG I think are a great example of Liars for Christ.  Setting a great example for good little Christians everywhere.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: velkyn on May 13, 2011, 10:10:23 AM
Indeed.  I do wonder about people who have evidently decided that lying for God is a great thing.  Have they not read Romans 3?  Or even the "ten" commandments, where it says very distinctly one should not bear "false witness" about other people?  If these Christians insist on lying about other's actions and intents, that would be a big no-no according to the god they supposedly worship.

Their actions on this forum make me think that they don't actually believe, for if they did, is telling such lies worth their supposed souls?  Do they think their supposed omnipotent, omniscient god will forgive them again and again for doing something God said not to do?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: rev45 on May 13, 2011, 10:42:05 AM
I'm thinking maybe Christians rank the 10 commandments in terms of importance and priority.  Such as the first commandment is "No other gods before me."  Well that must a big no no as its the first commandment and anyone who has another god or no god should be preached to harshly.  But as you work your way down the list of commandments, we can easily point to Christians who break those commandments regularly.  6-10 are: do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness, and do not covet.  Those commandments are broken by almost every televangelists I've ever seen.  Murder not so much but I've yet to hear one actively speak out against the wars the US is engaged in or condemn the OT wars where many were killed.  But as these commandments are at the bottom of the list, maybe they aren't as important as the commandments at the top.  Maybe that's why we get so many liars around here.  Or maybe not.  ;D
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Persephone on May 13, 2011, 11:37:19 AM
Do they think their supposed omnipotent, omniscient god will forgive them again and again for doing something God said not to do?

Their evolved survival skills show up clearly when their morality continuum becomes situational, and they reveal their moral compass to be no different from ours. Often it's even worse because they have the added "bonus" of giving an eternal stamp of approval to their choices, something atheists don't do.

You can justify more cruelty when you're convinced you have God's mandate.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Jezebel on May 13, 2011, 11:42:40 AM
This guy is a perfect example of why I think talking to theists is a waste of time.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: LadyLucy on May 13, 2011, 12:51:49 PM
I have a feeling no theist will ever answer my question:

Quote from: LadyAmorosaLuckyDulce link=topic=18827.msg417083#msg417083
SoG, why do you want us to believe in your deity and not another one? I've asked this question to many other theists. They either:

A. Did not answer me on purpose [I.E. No clue as to how to answer]
B. Ignored me, because they thought I was trolling
C. They simply never answered me out of anger

How about it? If you think you are so honest, please answer me. I have not received any answer to this day.

No theist is honest, I swear.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 13, 2011, 12:57:18 PM
I have a feeling no theist will ever answer my question:

Quote from: LadyAmorosaLuckyDulce link=topic=18827.msg417083#msg417083
SoG, why do you want us to believe in your deity and not another one? I've asked this question to many other theists. They either:

A. Did not answer me on purpose [I.E. No clue as to how to answer]
B. Ignored me, because they thought I was trolling
C. They simply never answered me out of anger

How about it? If you think you are so honest, please answer me. I have not received any answer to this day.

No theist is honest, I swear.

They exist:

A Theist can be:

(A) Above IQ 60
(B) Honest
(C) Adult

Pick any two.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Persephone on May 13, 2011, 01:39:56 PM
No theist is honest, I swear.
In their defense I think it's often more a matter of self-delusion, not deliberate dishonesty. The ones who break free are the self-delusional ones whose desire to know the truth supersedes their fear of abandoning their delusion.

(I was a voiceful theist for a while. My IQ is way above 60, I was an adult at the time, and I was being honest...as well as I was able to be. In fact, it was the combination of these things, including a stringent honesty, that ultimately led me to atheism. My desire for truth surpassed my fear of abandoning my delusion.)
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Nick on May 13, 2011, 01:55:59 PM
No theist is honest, I swear.
In their defense I think it's often more a matter of self-delusion, not deliberate dishonesty. The ones who break free are the self-delusional ones whose desire to know the truth supersedes their fear of abandoning their delusion.

(I was a voiceful theist for a while. My IQ is way above 60, I was an adult at the time, and I was being honest...as well as I was able to be. In fact, it was the combination of these things, including a stringent honesty, that ultimately led me to atheism. My desire for truth surpassed my fear of abandoning my delusion.)
What a great last sentence.  +1
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: LadyLucy on May 13, 2011, 03:33:50 PM
My desire for truth surpassed my fear of abandoning my delusion.

That goes for all theists that end up de-converting. I went through it, you went through it, hell, I'm absolutely sure every atheist that belonged to a religion went through it.

The most important step rather than the pursuit for truth [since that step is actually one of the last] is first acknowledging you are delusional. Otherwise, no dice. It's a difficult inner fight. Afterall, it is quite the mind-job, being told that a particular god or something exists in this planet and watches over all of us.

That's the only way one can be honest with themselves: Acknowledging the problem. These theists that go into WWGHA? For vast majority of the part, they are not being honest with themselves. Not even out of fear [since they don't acknowledge there is a problem to begin with], but rather because they already have lived their lives this way for so long that it is an absolute truth.

The problem is not knowing there is a problem to begin with, Persephone. And that's why I respect people that actually admit that what they believe is more so an emotional truth to make them feel more at peace. People like servantofgod and String will most likely never say it is an emotional truth, but that it's something that everyone in the world should be aware of and convert into it in order to be saved.

"There is no honest theist, I swear." <--- Whether it is an emotional truth or a "world-wide" and absolute truth, no theist is being honest. Not even deists that are trying to de-convert. I know because I was there, and frankly, I was not an honest person. I lied to myself, both shamelessly and with lots of shame; lots of shame because every day that passed by, I acknowledge there was a problem more and more. And that's what theists do: Wishful thinking.

The only thing I can do is sip my water, sit back, and read whatever they have to say, only to say to them: "Could you please support whatever is coming out of your mouth?"

Whatever. The least I can do is try to make them think slightly more about what they say the next time.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Persephone on May 13, 2011, 03:56:57 PM
My desire for truth surpassed my fear of abandoning my delusion.

That goes for all theists that end up de-converting. I went through it, you went through it, hell, I'm absolutely sure every atheist that belonged to a religion went through it.
I agree completely - it's a necessary step.

Quote
The most important step rather than the pursuit for truth [since that step is actually one of the last] is first acknowledging you are delusional. Otherwise, no dice. It's a difficult inner fight. Afterall, it is quite the mind-job, being told that a particular god or something exists in this planet and watches over all of us.
This is very well-put, LadyA. It *is* a difficult inner fight against the ultimate mind-job.

I think it is akin to overcoming psychosis.

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These theists that go into WWGHA? For vast majority of the part, they are not being honest with themselves. Not even out of fear [since they don't acknowledge there is a problem to begin with], but rather because they already have lived their lives this way for so long that it is an absolute truth.
I lived my life that way long enough that it was an absolute truth, for a while at any rate. I was confident in my psychosis.

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The problem is not knowing there is a problem to begin with, Persephone.
Yes!

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And that's why I respect people that actually admit that what they believe is more so an emotional truth to make them feel more at peace.
I know believers like this. I have a certain amount of respect for their self-awareness, but the idealist in me screams, "At what cost is this peace?!"

Quote
"There is no honest theist, I swear." <--- Whether it is an emotional truth or a "world-wide" and absolute truth, no theist is being honest. Not even deists that are trying to de-convert. I know because I was there, and frankly, I was not an honest person. I lied to myself, both shamelessly and with lots of shame; lots of shame because every day that passed by, I acknowledge there was a problem more and more. And that's what theists do: Wishful thinking.
I sense that you think I disagree with you? On the contrary; I think that we are simply defining "lying" in subtly different ways.

It always comes down to definitions, doesn't it? :)

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The least I can do is try to make them think slightly more about what they say the next time.
There is nobility in such a goal.

~P
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on May 13, 2011, 04:06:47 PM
Well, I'm sorry for breaking the rules.  I won't post anymore.  God bless.

Oh, that makes it all better. This way, you don't have to take any responsibility, or make any ammends.
 

 
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 13, 2011, 04:08:19 PM
i]as well as I was able to be[/i].

Key words there. Honesty is being free from lies...including self lies and deliberate avoidances of uncomfortable facts.

If you want it to read "Sort of Honest" then my statement isn't true
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: nogodsforme on May 13, 2011, 04:25:35 PM
Servant of God is absolutely correct. I am a slave of the evil one. And right now the evil one  wants a ham and cheese sandwich on a whole grain baguette. And maybe some sort of beverage. So I'm off to the store to fetch it. Later maybe I'll stop at the Mexican bakery for a piece of that nice cheesecake they make there.  The evil one  is pretty easy to please, esp compared to god. :D

Buh-bye, S 'o God! Nice knowin' ya.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: LadyLucy on May 13, 2011, 04:25:46 PM
I think it is akin to overcoming psychosis.

Which is why I find it so moving to be around those atheists that lived that religious life-style for so long, and come out whole, new characters.

I sense that you think I disagree with you? On the contrary; I think that we are simply defining "lying" in subtly different ways.

Nuh-uh. I agreed. :) I simply added my thoughts.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Persephone on May 13, 2011, 04:41:41 PM
i]as well as I was able to be[/i].

Key words there. Honesty is being free from lies...including self lies and deliberate avoidances of uncomfortable facts.

If you want it to read "Sort of Honest" then my statement isn't true
Yup.

I think we are on subtly different pages, though, Hatter. Here's why: To declare that a person's own judgment of his or her own honesty is moot assumes that there is an objective standard of honesty and truth. I don't go there.

As soon as we atheists assume that ThereisTruthandWeKNOWWhatItIs, we are guilty of fallacious thinking, imo.[1] The best--and indeed it is a very, very good "best"--is science's mathematical methods focusing upon probabilities and statistics. (Of course inferences matter, but they have no basis without lots of data.)

But given today's current understanding of quantum physics, neuroscience's theories of mind, and biology's understanding of the profound complexity of evolution; I don't think that it's possible to form an idea of objective reality that applies at all levels of experience. I'm not even sure it exists.

The multiverse is far too recursive for our level of experience to be objectively, universally defined. We have to talk about levels of experience to even begin.

This is why I'm an agnostic atheist, a #6 on Dawkins' scale, but only due to a technicality. There's always a chance I'm wrong about god(s), but the likelihood is very, very small imo.

~P
 1. Aren't you the fallacy expert here? Help me out! One True Scotsman?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Persephone on May 13, 2011, 04:43:24 PM
I sense that you think I disagree with you? On the contrary; I think that we are simply defining "lying" in subtly different ways.

Nuh-uh. I agreed. :) I simply added my thoughts.
And they were great thoughts. I'm glad you added them because you gave me some new ways to think about this.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Alzael on May 13, 2011, 06:04:02 PM
If nothing else at least out of SoG's nonsense came quite a few very good posts to refute his idiocy. And it managed to drag Death Over Life up out of hiding place and awaken him from his comatase state.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Nick on May 13, 2011, 06:29:17 PM
So was SOG raptured early?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Grogs on May 13, 2011, 07:12:52 PM
My thought is the servant of god and others like him who come in and post are projecting. He says that he was a bad person who lied and stole all the time before he got saved, he was addicted to H, and presumably, finding Jesus was at least part of the reason he was able to recover. It's a hard thing to admit the bad things you've done, try to make amends, and try to do better in the future - if you actually do it, that is. The problem with sog's philosophy is that his excuse for his previous behavior is simply that he didn't have Jesus in his life. So, you see, it wasn't really his fault that he did bad things. Humans are completely helpless. Without Jesus to guide us, we would all devolve into anarcho-communist-cannibal-baby killers. He's accepted Jesus now, and Jesus says that all past wrongs are forgiven unconditionally so he is, therefore, a good person.

He has a problem, though - us. Here we sit, presumably normal and fairly decent people, yet we claim that we don't believe in his Jesus. Even worse, a large number of us actually DID believe in Jesus at some point, but we weren't all that impressed and left the faith. This must cause a massive level of cognitive dissonance. He can address this in a couple of ways. First, he could admit that maybe the whole 'saved' thing is subjective and different people get different levels of satisfaction from it. That's a dangerous road though, because once you start admitting that, the next step involves asking why your own subjective interpretation is better than anyone else's. Even worse, it may even mean that YOU, specifically, were a bad person who did bad things, rather than just foisting it off as a condition common to the entire human race.

The second option, and sadly the one that sog seems to be following, is to put your fingers in your ears and scream loudly that anyone who says that they had a different experience with Jesus is lying. We MUST be lying because the alternative is unthinkable. We REALLY DO believe in Jesus, but we're just pretending we do because we're petulant children. If we're not out kicking children and raping dogs, that's because we really do believe in Jesus and we're afraid of him. If we were christians once, but we became apostates, we MUST NOT have actually believed like he does because a TRUE CHRISTIANTM would never fall. No amount of counter-evidence will ever shake him, because what he believes SIMPLY MUST BE TRUE.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Death over Life on May 13, 2011, 08:52:25 PM
So, looks like me getting a little more harsh to him chased him away finally. Perhaps if he wouldn't be so close-minded and ignorant, I wouldn't have responded to him as such.

Seeing so much of the extreme "fundamentalism" in my life, I can tell you, Sog is one of them. They are one of those, you believe what I say or your damned kind of people. I despised such when I was a Christian, and I still despise them now as an agnostic atheist. Tried being nice, but if he is going to be ignorant, preachy, and obviously not try to discuss, then fuck him. One thing I do love about being harsh sometimes, it shows you who has really payed attention to the Bible and who hasn't.

Perfect example, it says turn the other cheek, in addition to be virtuous with patience, slow to wrath, and to be compassionate to their enemies, even when they are attacking you. Looks like when I touched a nerve, he turns around and finally reveals His' true character. Hypocrite and liar far before I responded as such, but it was the Hammer (of Thor lol!) that nailed in the final nail in His' coffin.

I have done that to actual friends of mine who are Christians, and they still dared not respond to me like SoG's final posts (well, 1 friend did, but he then apologized for exactly what he said and retracted His' statement). I see my close Christian friends as more true-genuine Christians than this poser, as they did turn the other cheek and they took it with compassion towards me. We don't let religion, or the lack of it, get in our way of friendship or our way of thinking, and we do choose to discuss time-to-time, but unlike SoG, we actually listen and discuss with each other instead of the preaching.

If nothing else at least out of SoG's nonsense came quite a few very good posts to refute his idiocy. And it managed to drag Death Over Life up out of hiding place and awaken him from his comatase state.

That it did lol.

All I can say is after that, damn! No wonder when I went on here as a Christian you guys were harsh and rude. Having to put up with that, is enough to drive any sane person insane. Thankfully, we live in reality and not fantasy!
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: jetson on May 13, 2011, 09:07:56 PM
Well, we were talking about his preaching behind the scenes, but decided to let the members take him on for a bit.  Surprisingly, only one report came in regarding SoG, that I can remember.

When Pony reminded him that he was actually breaking forum rules, it seems he decided to leave.

I think that some Christians are not even aware of their preaching style, but SoG was not one of them!  He knew what he was doing, which is why he continued.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Alzael on May 13, 2011, 09:21:41 PM

That it did lol.

All I can say is after that, damn! No wonder when I went on here as a Christian you guys were harsh and rude. Having to put up with that, is enough to drive any sane person insane. Thankfully, we live in reality and not fantasy!

Now you fully understand our pain, brother. Now the healing can truly begin.

On a more serious note, this is why I don't bother to adjust my snark levels with certain theists. It actually takes a lot of effort to hold back the smart ass comments on any subject I'm discussing. But people like String and SoG just aren't worth that effort. I still put effort into making valid points, but no effort into holding back my normal mockery and contempt that I hold for all things in this world.

Now, here's a fun exercise, try imagining having to do that on a near daily basis without feeling the urge to shove nails into your skull. Then you'll really understand why we sometimes take the tone we do.

I think part of the problem, at least for me, is that in order to really counter these arguments I actually have to think about them. This means that I then get to spend the next half hour with a pencil jammed up my nose as I desperately try to fish out the piece of my brain that died the minute I tried to use it to understand people like SoG.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: William on May 13, 2011, 09:24:18 PM
Well, I'm sorry for breaking the rules.  I won't post anymore.  God bless.

Oh, that makes it all better. This way, you don't have to take any responsibility, or make any ammends.

Servantofgod is already saved ... no, doubly saved, home-and-hosed because he brought us the Word of RLord.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Turbo SS on May 13, 2011, 09:38:35 PM
Wow you guys are harsh lol.  It was still a pretty entertaining thread.  I noticed you guys do jump all over alot of christians immediately and call them liars and things like that.  Which I know they are.  But have you guys ever tried to kill one with kindness?  You know they expect atheists to be mean.  What if we were nice to them and just politely refuted everything they say without throwing out any insults.  I feel like they probably feel in a very defensive position and when you feel that way you dont want to listen to anyone you just want to get your point across.

I know its hard to do even when they insult us or constantly break the rules and preach.  But maybe they might stick around longer and maybe just maybe one might open his or her mind for moment and consider they are wrong and hey atheists arent so bad afterall.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Azdgari on May 13, 2011, 09:44:40 PM
^^ One can always guilt them kindly when they repay the kindness with its opposite.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Jezebel on May 13, 2011, 09:47:15 PM
Wow you guys are harsh lol.  It was still a pretty entertaining thread.  I noticed you guys do jump all over alot of christians immediately and call them liars and things like that.  Which I know they are.  But have you guys ever tried to kill one with kindness?

I play nice until they don't. I treat everyone more or less the same. And lots of people I've seen on this site maintain nice, civil discussion-type tones, which I think is the best possible response. Think rationally. Examine yourself. Question authority. "Killing them with kindness" sounds like it would involve being misleading--- if giving them the opportunity to be treated as a thinking human being is somehow "unkind" what constitutes "kind"? Should we pretend to half-believe? Or "go along with" something? Should we be apologetic for thinking for ourselves? I mean, it's a nice philosophy-- more flies with honey and all that-- but keep in mind one only catches flies to dispose of them.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Persephone on May 13, 2011, 09:48:15 PM
I then get to spend the next half hour with a pencil jammed up my nose as I desperately try to fish out the piece of my brain that died the minute I tried to use it to understand people like SoG.
O.M.G. that is one beautiful, frakked up visual.

I will never be able to face a believer here again without thinking of that, lol.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Alzael on May 13, 2011, 10:02:55 PM
Wow you guys are harsh lol.  It was still a pretty entertaining thread.  I noticed you guys do jump all over alot of christians immediately and call them liars and things like that.  Which I know they are.  But have you guys ever tried to kill one with kindness?  You know they expect atheists to be mean.  What if we were nice to them and just politely refuted everything they say without throwing out any insults.  I feel like they probably feel in a very defensive position and when you feel that way you dont want to listen to anyone you just want to get your point across.

I know its hard to do even when they insult us or constantly break the rules and preach.  But maybe they might stick around longer and maybe just maybe one might open his or her mind for moment and consider they are wrong and hey atheists arent so bad afterall.

This pretty much comes up every second week. The thing is that your idea is very limited, it assumes that they're actually here to talk like grown ups. Ones like SoG and String aren't here to converse, they're here to tell. They simply want to tell what they want and not actually have to discuss anything meaningfully.

Go back and reread this thread as well as when String chimed in on the other amputee thread. Notice how there's a very steady decline in how they were treated. At first they were treated rather civilly (String moreso than SoG because SoG started off by insulting the entire forum) but then as they become more and more obviously uninterested in really talking you see everyone start to be more and more dismissing of them. People did try to talk to him, he didn't feel like taking a step beyond the borders of Crazy Town though.

On the other hand, take Death Over Life, for example. When he first got here he wasn't treated anything like those two were, Because he actually discussed issues and made it worthwhile to talk to him, rather than making it extremely painful like our most recent two. I can count on one hand the number of other theists I've actually been able to have a similiar level of debate with.

Keep in mind that unfortunately the nature of the question asked by the site has a much greater likelihood of atrtracting the nutcases than it is to attract the intelligent ones.

I then get to spend the next half hour with a pencil jammed up my nose as I desperately try to fish out the piece of my brain that died the minute I tried to use it to understand people like SoG.
O.M.G. that is one beautiful, frakked up visual.

I will never be able to face a believer here again without thinking of that, lol.


You're welcome, I've got a lot of those but I haven't used them in a long time here on the forum. That ones one of my favourites though. I keep thinking that I should go back to my more earlier style on the forum, but either I've changed or the theists have and they don't give me the opporunities they used to. I certainly hope it's not me that's changed. I'd miss the old me.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: nogodsforme on May 13, 2011, 10:16:31 PM
I then get to spend the next half hour with a pencil jammed up my nose as I desperately try to fish out the piece of my brain that died the minute I tried to use it to understand people like SoG.
O.M.G. that is one beautiful, frakked up visual.

I will never be able to face a believer here again without thinking of that, lol.

Remind me to never ask Alzael to lend me a pencil. :P
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: EV on May 15, 2011, 07:57:55 AM
I just read this entire post thread, and I must say I really enjoyed it...

But why is it that some Fundy Christians just don't ever seem to get it? They just won't accept any other viewpoint...

It is a sad world that we live in where people say that you need to be open minded and ignore their own closed mindedness.

I'm going to act like a theist and quote a bible verse, but it is here (unlike half the ones from Soggy here) relevant.
Quote
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
-Matthew 7:3-5

This quote proves once and for all that there is still some relevance in the outdated teachings of the Bible, if only to some nutjob funda'mental' who took on twenty atheists and died a death more humiliating than Jesus.

SoG, if you read this and try to open your mind to your own teachings, maybe you might have got somewhere on convincing the WWGHA community that you actually had something meaningful to give.

It is really sad how many Christians just don't even follow their own teachings anymore...

Please people, anyone on this truly God-Forsaken planet daring to post on here, think before you speak, especially on places like this forum, or you will die a painful, painful death at the hands of far superior minds...

Oh, and Alzael may end up stabbing his brain out through his nasal cavity...  ;D
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: lotanddaughters on May 15, 2011, 11:53:39 AM
All I can say is after that, damn! No wonder when I went on here as a Christian you guys were harsh and rude. Having to put up with that, is enough to drive any sane person insane. Thankfully, we live in reality and not fantasy!

DoL,

Do you still keep in contact with that "Muscles and Beard" dude?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Death over Life on May 15, 2011, 02:14:58 PM
But why is it that some Fundy Christians just don't ever seem to get it? They just won't accept any other viewpoint...

1 word, Indoctrination. They are so embedded into their beliefs, it is like a terminator robot. They didn’t actually believe it, it was instilled into their data bank/memory to the point where the robot has no free will anymore, although it thinks it has free will.

This I feel is why for really damaging Christianity, instead of going after every Christian we come into contact with, I’m starting to think we should all go to various churches challenging the Pastors or Priests.

(And if an atheist can SOMEHOW get into the Vatican City, the Devil, I mean Pope himself!)

As the saying goes: If you destroy the head, the limbs will naturally die off.

Being a Christian for over a decade, and going to church for 7 out of those 10 years, it is very easy to see that the Christians get their beliefs from their Pastor, not the Bible. This is how and why people like Sog are like Sog and how they post as such.

All I can say is after that, damn! No wonder when I went on here as a Christian you guys were harsh and rude. Having to put up with that, is enough to drive any sane person insane. Thankfully, we live in reality and not fantasy!

DoL,

Do you still keep in contact with that "Muscles and Beard" dude?

Hguols, yes and no.

He and I are members of other forums as well, so I still see Him. (one of them shut down however)

In terms of actually conversing, He knows I’m now an atheist and we still get along just fine as if I still was a Christian. When He did say He don’t care about whether we believe or not, which I do believe He said that on here as well, He meant it.

I do think still He was one of those who the guys here shouldn’t have been so harsh to, but it’s understandable because every time a Christian comes on here, you have to put up with SoG like debates all the freaking time.

In all honesty, I still don’t see why or understand Him debating that whole “atheism is a religion” debate. To me, that is semantics to the umpteenth degree. Whether it is or isn’t, it makes no difference as to what it does, preaches, and practices.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on May 15, 2011, 05:07:55 PM
Why are all the H capitalized in the above post?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Death over Life on May 15, 2011, 05:10:03 PM
Why are all the H capitalized in the above post?

Habit (no pun intended btw)
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: velkyn on May 16, 2011, 08:37:07 AM
Wow you guys are harsh lol.  It was still a pretty entertaining thread.  I noticed you guys do jump all over alot of christians immediately and call them liars and things like that.  Which I know they are.  But have you guys ever tried to kill one with kindness?  You know they expect atheists to be mean.  What if we were nice to them and just politely refuted everything they say without throwing out any insults.  I feel like they probably feel in a very defensive position and when you feel that way you dont want to listen to anyone you just want to get your point across.
  I've tried that, being the nice kitty.  Unfortunately, there are few ways to break it to a person that they are indeed a liar that they won't get offended by.  Theists think we are "mean" no matter how we approach things. We can be as reasonable and nice as can be and we still get the same responses.  I can be all nice, show the theist on how much they are wrong and the only thing I get in return are more lies and it becomes them being chased around with no intent on ever abandoning their beliefs, coming up with more and more convoluted excuses to save their self-worth.  They probably do feel very defensive, in being shown how utterly wrong they are, but they come here all sure that they are the only right people in the universe.  It does hurt to get slapped down by reality.

Quote
I know its hard to do even when they insult us or constantly break the rules and preach.  But maybe they might stick around longer and maybe just maybe one might open his or her mind for moment and consider they are wrong and hey atheists arent so bad afterall.


Unfortunately, for a true believer, atheists are pure evil.  We will never be "not so bad".  They may stick around longer if no one directly confronts them (and I don't consider that to be "mean") but the end result is the same. 
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Alzael on May 16, 2011, 08:41:57 AM
Welcome back, Velks. See all the fun you've missed? I myself have managed to accumulate upwards of fifteen death threats in the last week. Bet you're jealous right?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Persephone on May 16, 2011, 08:50:40 AM
Theists think we are "mean" no matter how we approach things. We can be as reasonable and nice as can be and we still get the same responses.
So true, velkyn. The very existence of the atheist is insulting to them. We can't win. It's really more a matter of softening the blow, but it's still a blow.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: velkyn on May 16, 2011, 09:06:28 AM
Welcome back, Velks. See all the fun you've missed? I myself have managed to accumulate upwards of fifteen death threats in the last week. Bet you're jealous right?
you get all of the fun <pout>.   ;D   This latest crop of theists who are sure that they and only they have the "truth" are sadly typical and indeed lovely examples of "Christian love".  Always is amusing when they demonstrate that they don't actually believe in their nonsense by their actions.  I wonder if they are getting more and more desperate since one of their own is saying that JC will be back in a few days....

I've finally got internet access at work, albeit though a jury-rigged system of wireless hotspots etc.  So at least I'm not completely dead of boredom.  Got the office moved, but thanks to my boss and his total ability to screw up anything, we couldnt' tell the internet provider, phone, etc, where we were moving to until about two weeks ago.  So now, we get to wait until they get around to moving our access. 
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Alzael on May 16, 2011, 09:14:42 AM
Welcome back, Velks. See all the fun you've missed? I myself have managed to accumulate upwards of fifteen death threats in the last week. Bet you're jealous right?
you get all of the fun <pout>.   ;D   This latest crop of theists who are sure that they and only they have the "truth" are sadly typical and indeed lovely examples of "Christian love".  Always is amusing when they demonstrate that they don't actually believe in their nonsense by their actions.  I wonder if they are getting more and more desperate since one of their own is saying that JC will be back in a few days....


It was kind of a pity about lander though. He seemed at least smart enough. Unfortunately he was one of those types who shuts down if you give them anything they think is an insult. I actually even put in the effort to explain to him what a wuss-out policy that was, but apparently it was to no avail.

It's an interesting dilemma, isn't it? On the one hand you have the raving lunatics that you can't talk to, and can only mock. Then on the other hand you have the ones that aren't lunatics and could maybe have a conversation with but they're too fragile to have any of their beliefs challenged, no matter how nice we are.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: velkyn on May 16, 2011, 09:40:42 AM
I'd have to say that I honestly dont' know whether they are too "fragile" or they are just desperate for any excuse to extricate themselves from the position they've put themselves in. Then, anything becomes too much for them to supposed "bear". 
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: String1248 on May 16, 2011, 01:35:36 PM
I told you you can know God directly.  He will reveal Himself to you if you ask Him to.  By that, I mean sincerely and not swearing at Him and cursing His name and demanding He do tricks for you.  But just genuinely wanting to know if He is actually real or not.  You seem to have made up your mind, but I am telling you that He will show Himself to you if you ask.
Amen!
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on May 16, 2011, 01:37:35 PM
I told you you can know God directly.  He will reveal Himself to you if you ask Him to.  By that, I mean sincerely and not swearing at Him and cursing His name and demanding He do tricks for you.  But just genuinely wanting to know if He is actually real or not.  You seem to have made up your mind, but I am telling you that He will show Himself to you if you ask.
Amen!

OK, so let me be sure I'm clear about this.  If I ask Yahweh, with all my sincerity, to reveal himself to me, he will, and that being the case, I will obviously cease to be an atheist.  Is that correct?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on May 16, 2011, 01:45:34 PM
I told you you can know God directly.  He will reveal Himself to you if you ask Him to.  By that, I mean sincerely and not swearing at Him and cursing His name and demanding He do tricks for you.  But just genuinely wanting to know if He is actually real or not.  You seem to have made up your mind, but I am telling you that He will show Himself to you if you ask.
Amen!

Since you agree with this statement, and since servantofgod is no longer with us, I'm going to ask you a question.  What qualifys as "demanding He do tricks for you"?
What could I ask god to do that wouldn't be a "trick", but would still have an unambiguous, obserable effect that could be video recorded?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: velkyn on May 16, 2011, 01:54:08 PM
I told you you can know God directly.  He will reveal Himself to you if you ask Him to.  By that, I mean sincerely and not swearing at Him and cursing His name and demanding He do tricks for you.  But just genuinely wanting to know if He is actually real or not.  You seem to have made up your mind, but I am telling you that He will show Himself to you if you ask.
Amen!

So, string, I have asked God to reveal himself to me.  Nothing has happened in the 20+ years since I've ceased believing in gods or the supernatural.  Why has nothing happened, after I asked sincerely, wanting ot know if it is real or not, wanting help as I lost my faith?

Let me guess, didn't I ask "correctly"?  Isn't that convenient, no matter the answer you get, you'll just desperately make excuses and say that no one was really "sincere" enough, just like Linus in the pumpkin patch, that we didn't "correctly" as if you had some magic spell to make your god appear to you. 

Please, string, answer my question, why does this method that SOG and you fail? 
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Jezebel on May 16, 2011, 03:26:30 PM
So if we don't believe, it's because we haven't asked properly.

If we ask properly, we will be "shown" and we will believe.

If we are not "shown" it's because we didn't ask properly.

So what is the "proper" way to ask? If it's a matter of sincerity and honesty, I sincerely and honestly prayed for years to god. You will tell me that because I do not believe, I was not sincere and honest. Does "proper" mean opening your heart and mind? Because I DID believe, and wanted to KEEP believing, so obviously I already had an open heart and mind to god-- I STARTED that way. But you will tell me I was never open-hearted or open-minded, because I don't believe. Basically, no matter what I share of my experience of struggling NOT to become an atheist, of TRYING to maintain my faith and belief, you're going to call me a liar, aren't you? On one hand theists say, "if you just ASK" and when the predicted result doesn't happen it's "you didn't ask RIGHT' but anything we say about how we DID ask, and how we tried, is dismissed as untruth.

I have a few choice words for people like you that I don't think are allowed on this forum.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: nogodsforme on May 16, 2011, 03:52:11 PM
At the risk of getting some people on this forum hot under the collar, I propose that being an atheist is similar in some ways to being gay. Life would be so much easier if we were like everyone else, if we could just follow the program like the majority. But. We. Can't. Some of us prayed not to become atheists, like gays who pray to become straight. But it does not work.

Some of us are "in the closet" even to our close friends and family. As a black person in the US, being an atheist is as threatening to some as being gay. We are not "flaunting our godless lifestyle". On the contrary, most of us just keep our heads down and try to remain neutral to keep the peace. We atheists, like gays, know that we are way outnumbered, and that people like us are sometimes dragged out and killed for being different. Try being an athiest (or gay) in Saudi Arabia, for example.

You can lie to everyone else to stay safe, but you really can't lie to yourself. Once you realize the truth about who you are (gay, say, or atheist), you can't delude yourself and go back to the way you were before. Some of us have tried to hold onto religious faith, even after we knew there was nothing there. Eventually we knew we were just going through the motions for other people's benefit and comfort.

Then we have to "come out" at least to some people in our lives. We do not become outspoken as atheists (or gays) just to annoy other people! We just could not keep up the pretense any longer. We could lose family members, friends, jobs, just for being honest about who we are. Still some of us are willing to insist on that honesty even when it is dangerous sometimes. Why would people want us to live a lie?



Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Emily on May 16, 2011, 04:09:37 PM
I told you you can know God directly.  He will reveal Himself to you if you ask Him to.  By that, I mean sincerely and not swearing at Him and cursing His name and demanding He do tricks for you.  But just genuinely wanting to know if He is actually real or not.  You seem to have made up your mind, but I am telling you that He will show Himself to you if you ask.
Amen!

I wish SoG was still around because I am sure that if asked the right questions there'd be something that these two disagree with regarding god. Yet they both claim that have "genuinely wanting to know him" and that god has "revealed himself" to them both. We need a good christian on christian debate to see which one is a spag and which one truly knows god.
 
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Asmoday on May 16, 2011, 05:02:32 PM
Why would people want us to live a lie?
Because it scares them that people are different and that those different people live right next door.

Their whole worldview is based on an "us VS. them" mentality. The bible is full of it. But they want "them" not to be around. They want "them" not to be actual, tangible persons. They want "them" to a shadowy boogeyman on the horizon, whom they'll never see, meet or know but they can  point there and say "See?! That's them! They are evil!"

Of course they'll still point and shout "They are evil" when they are directly in front of them, but it gets more and more difficult. Especially all those preachers and evangelists with half a brain realize that it becomes quite hard to sell the "They are evil" routine to the average folks, if for the average folks "they" now have the face of that nice young man / sweet young woman next door, who always say hello, keep their garden in shape and offer to take care of the family dog or cat when the average folks go on holiday.

It's OK for them if the different ones are all on one side and the normal ones all on the other. They love to have a clear cut black and white world. But when "normal" people come out with being different and the "different" people happen to be just normal, then there are white dots on the black side and black dots on the white side. It's chaos all over till the black and white worldview is all shot to hell. No more easy answers.
People are only allowed to be different in ways that don't actually make them different.


Frank Burns ("M*A*S*H" TV Series): Individuality is fine, as long as we all do it together.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: jetson on May 16, 2011, 05:27:25 PM
Nogodsforme, +1 for a brilliant post.  Thank you.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Jezebel on May 16, 2011, 07:31:27 PM
At the risk of getting some people on this forum hot under the collar, I propose that being an atheist is similar in some ways to being gay.

Agree completely. +1
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: William on May 16, 2011, 08:26:09 PM
Then we have to "come out" at least to some people in our lives. We do not become outspoken as atheists (or gays) just to annoy other people! We just could not keep up the pretense any longer. We could lose family members, friends, jobs, just for being honest about who we are. Still some of us are willing to insist on that honesty even when it is dangerous sometimes. Why would people want us to live a lie?

Beautiful post nogodsforme.  Every molecule of me is resonating in agreement :)
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Alzael on May 17, 2011, 07:35:27 AM
I told you you can know God directly.  He will reveal Himself to you if you ask Him to.  By that, I mean sincerely and not swearing at Him and cursing His name and demanding He do tricks for you.  But just genuinely wanting to know if He is actually real or not.  You seem to have made up your mind, but I am telling you that He will show Himself to you if you ask.
Amen!

Once again, String, you wow us with your depth. You do realize that the bible says that god will, in fact, do tricks for us? Or is this yet another one of those parts of the bible that you're going to ignore when I mention them to you?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Turbo SS on May 17, 2011, 08:49:43 AM
At the risk of getting some people on this forum hot under the collar, I propose that being an atheist is similar in some ways to being gay. Life would be so much easier if we were like everyone else, if we could just follow the program like the majority. But. We. Can't. Some of us prayed not to become atheists, like gays who pray to become straight. But it does not work.

Some of us are "in the closet" even to our close friends and family. As a black person in the US, being an atheist is as threatening to some as being gay. We are not "flaunting our godless lifestyle". On the contrary, most of us just keep our heads down and try to remain neutral to keep the peace. We atheists, like gays, know that we are way outnumbered, and that people like us are sometimes dragged out and killed for being different. Try being an athiest (or gay) in Saudi Arabia, for example.

You can lie to everyone else to stay safe, but you really can't lie to yourself. Once you realize the truth about who you are (gay, say, or atheist), you can't delude yourself and go back to the way you were before. Some of us have tried to hold onto religious faith, even after we knew there was nothing there. Eventually we knew we were just going through the motions for other people's benefit and comfort.

Then we have to "come out" at least to some people in our lives. We do not become outspoken as atheists (or gays) just to annoy other people! We just could not keep up the pretense any longer. We could lose family members, friends, jobs, just for being honest about who we are. Still some of us are willing to insist on that honesty even when it is dangerous sometimes. Why would people want us to live a lie?

wow you summed it up perfectly.  Great job!  Living in the Bible Belt the only person I have told is my girlfriend.  I am afraid for my job and losing friends if I go public with it.  :(
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on May 17, 2011, 09:11:47 AM
At the risk of getting some people on this forum hot under the collar, I propose that being an atheist is similar in some ways to being gay.

You probably won't be surprised to hear that you're not the first person to make this comparison.  Nevertheless, it does bear repeating because the analogy is definitely very valid.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: velkyn on May 17, 2011, 09:46:17 AM
FFRF is doing well with its Out of the Closet campaign  :): http://ffrf.org/out/
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Add Homonym on May 17, 2011, 10:50:45 AM
(http://imgur.com/7NH7e.jpg)
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Persephone on May 17, 2011, 11:05:46 AM
^ Awesome!

Does this mean things will be easier for my kids and their families?  :D
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: nogodsforme on May 17, 2011, 03:15:05 PM
(http://imgur.com/7NH7e.jpg)
Just without the spandex and confetti. ;D

When will we have our Stonewall? I want a pride parade, too!
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Anfauglir on May 18, 2011, 04:07:11 AM
I told you you can know God directly.  He will reveal Himself to you if you ask Him to.  By that, I mean sincerely and not swearing at Him and cursing His name and demanding He do tricks for you.  But just genuinely wanting to know if He is actually real or not.  You seem to have made up your mind, but I am telling you that He will show Himself to you if you ask.
Amen!

Sadly, Soggy changed the goalposts when we did what he said, and nothing happened.  All at once his "god will DEFINITELY reveal himself to you NOW, TODAY" changed to "well, someday maybe possibly perhaps......"

But I am always open to new possibilities.  So, string, why don't you set down EXACTLY what I need to do....and exactly what the effects will be if I do.  I will follow your instructions carefully and to the letter, with alll honesty and sincerity.  I KNOW that what you tell me to do - and the effects you will tell me I will experience - can be relied on, because you've been there yourself, right? 

You agree with Soggy that "He will show Himself to you if you ask".  So go ahead.  Explain how to ask....and how he will "show himself" when I do.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: velkyn on May 18, 2011, 08:56:53 AM
I asked String pretty much the same thing in a PM.  Of course, I just got back the insistence that String has *never* seen anyone who asked God to show himself not become a believer.  Of course, my case in and of itself demonstrates that String and SOG are incorrect in their assertions.  The rest of Strings post was essentially claiming that every atheist who has told them that they "sincerely" asked God to reveal himself was a liar.  And I do wonder about Christians who go about bearing false witness about others.   
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 18, 2011, 09:31:16 AM
I asked String pretty much the same thing in a PM.  Of course, I just got back the insistence that String has *never* seen anyone who asked God to show himself not become a believer.  Of course, my case in and of itself demonstrates that String and SOG are incorrect in their assertions.  The rest of Strings post was essentially claiming that every atheist who has told them that they "sincerely" asked God to reveal himself was a liar.  And I do wonder about Christians who go about bearing false witness about others.

Eh, its just another "No True Scottman" conversation. If I had a buck for every time I had one, I could get a nice used car.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: screwtape on May 18, 2011, 12:40:02 PM
When will we have our Stonewall? I want a pride parade, too!

As soon as we get off our asses and demand it.  See my sig.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 18, 2011, 08:01:00 PM
Anfauglir, if you want my opinion it's your complete lack of sincerity.  You don't believe God is real.  How do you pray to God when you don't even think He is there?  It's your double-mindedness that is the problem.  When you can muster an iota of faith that He is there, when you're willing to bend a little, perhaps you'll see Him.  I hope that you do but it isn't up to me.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 18, 2011, 08:19:14 PM
Because my God, Jesus Christ, is the only one that offers you forgiveness for your sins and eternal life in paradise.  Jesus is the only God who actually came to Earth to live among us as one of us (and have witnesses to boot).  You should believe in Jesus because He took your place in calvary and paid the price for your sins.  You should believe in Jesus because He was resurrected, as the first fruits of the world to come, and broke the power of death over mankind.  You should believe in Jesus because His is the only name that you can be saved.  You should believe in Him because He justified and redeemed mankind, and restored Creation.  Believe in Him because He is a personal God, who is concerned for your personal welfare, and He will give you rest.  There are many other reasons, but primarily you should believe in Jesus because He loves you.

 
I have a feeling no theist will ever answer my question:

Quote from: LadyAmorosaLuckyDulce link=topic=18827.msg417083#msg417083
SoG, why do you want us to believe in your deity and not another one? I've asked this question to many other theists. They either:

A. Did not answer me on purpose [I.E. No clue as to how to answer]
B. Ignored me, because they thought I was trolling
C. They simply never answered me out of anger

How about it? If you think you are so honest, please answer me. I have not received any answer to this day.

No theist is honest, I swear.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Graybeard on May 18, 2011, 08:19:21 PM
When you can muster an iota of faith that He is there, when you're willing to bend a little, perhaps you'll see Him.
Isn't god so magnificent that you die when you see him. As I recall, God only lets people see his ass.

Ex:33:17: And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
Ex:33:18: And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
Ex:33:19: And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
Ex:33:20: And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Ex:33:21: And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Ex:33:22: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Ex:33:23: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 18, 2011, 08:21:56 PM
Jesus appeared in the flesh, we saw His whole person.  Though even that wasn't enough for Thomas to believe, who had to touch His wounds to believe He had risen. 
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Graybeard on May 18, 2011, 08:22:43 PM
Because my God, Jesus Christ, is the only one that offers you salvation from death and eternal life in paradise. 
No, that's not quite true. The Greek Gods also offered and gave immortality to mortals.

Anyhow, how many people have come back from the dead and confirmed that there is a life after death? I mean, there's not a shred of proof for this wild statement and it's a pretty easy think to say, isn't it?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Graybeard on May 18, 2011, 08:24:23 PM
Jesus appeared in the flesh, we saw His whole person. 
Strangely Mark did not and doesn't mention the resurrection.

Anyway, you say, "we saw His whole person" - you never saw anything, and neither did I. Who is this "we"?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Death over Life on May 18, 2011, 08:26:25 PM

wow you summed it up perfectly.  Great job!  Living in the Bible Belt the only person I have told is my girlfriend.  I am afraid for my job and losing friends if I go public with it.  :(

Losing a job is perfectly understandable, but in my deep honest opinion, if your friends reject you for telling them you are an atheist, they really aren’t even your friends to begin with. The friends you have are supposed to be the people you can go to to tell them anything and everything.




Once again ring around the rosie with servant of god. Provide evidence please.

You made the claim, prove it!
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Graybeard on May 18, 2011, 08:29:09 PM
Jesus appeared in the flesh, we saw His whole person.  Though even that wasn't enough for Thomas to believe, who had to touch His wounds to believe He had risen.
So was God lying in Exodus when he said you'd die if you saw his face?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 18, 2011, 08:36:04 PM
Okay, but it isn't the same..they were capricious and cruel..Jesus gives eternal life to everyone..but in any case ill change it to sins

Because my God, Jesus Christ, is the only one that offers you salvation from death and eternal life in paradise. 
No, that's not quite true. The Greek Gods also offered and gave immortality to mortals.

Anyhow, how many people have come back from the dead and confirmed that there is a life after death? I mean, there's not a shred of proof for this wild statement and it's a pretty easy think to say, isn't it?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Graybeard on May 18, 2011, 08:43:55 PM
Okay, but it isn't the same..they were capricious and cruel..Jesus gives eternal life to everyone..but in any case ill change it to sins

I've still got to ask, "Anyhow, how many people have come back from the dead and confirmed that there is a life after death? I mean, there's not a shred of proof for this wild statement and it's a pretty easy think to say, isn't it?"

And how do you know your sins are forgiven? I mean, I could say that I forgive your sins, couldn't I? Why wouldn't you believe me?

Oh, and on the question of eternal life, the Hindu god [wiki]Vishnu[/wiki] also offers eternal life and you don't have to believe in him - all you have to do is lead a reasonably good life and you'll get to heaven.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 18, 2011, 08:45:53 PM
i meant mankind, and we do have eye witnesses accounts of life after death..thats my whole point...One of the convincing evidences, at least for the fact He was a real person, is the Talmud.  As you may know its a central text  of the jewish faith.  In it there are vicious slanders against Jesus, such as that he is in hell boiling in a vat of excrement.  Or that His miracles were really sorcery.  Stuff like that..

I know some people here think Jesus never even existed..well I would ask you, if He was a hoax, why would the jews put that in their sacred text?  If they knew He was a hoax, I think they would have written that one down.  But they didn't, they only denied His divinity.  That's because Jesus is a historical person.

All roads lead to Him..all branches of knowledge..all wisdom, all righteousness..they all have an endpoint in Jesus of Nazereth.
Jesus appeared in the flesh, we saw His whole person. 
Strangely Mark did not and doesn't mention the resurrection.

Anyway, you say, "we saw His whole person" - you never saw anything, and neither did I. Who is this "we"?
quote repaired
~ Screwtape
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 18, 2011, 08:48:24 PM
I wouldn't believe you because you have no authority to forgive sins.  Haven't you ever seen any testimony of near death experiences?  Plenty of people have died, saw God, and were sent back.  But you don't believe them either.  It's funny, you cut off everything possible which points to God, then claim there is no evidence.

Okay, but it isn't the same..they were capricious and cruel..Jesus gives eternal life to everyone..but in any case ill change it to sins

I've still got to ask, "Anyhow, how many people have come back from the dead and confirmed that there is a life after death? I mean, there's not a shred of proof for this wild statement and it's a pretty easy think to say, isn't it?"

And how do you know your sins are forgiven? I mean, I could say that I forgive your sins, couldn't I? Why wouldn't you believe me?

Oh, and on the question of eternal life, the Hindu god [wiki]Vishnu[/wiki] also offers eternal life and you don't have to believe in him - all you have to do is lead a reasonably good life and you'll get to heaven.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 18, 2011, 08:55:20 PM
This is what I will submit to you.  It isn't about evidence, it's about you.  You could formulate the perfect argument, but God is personal..The evidence is in your life.  There are good things the Father did for you that you don't have any idea about, and the things that you do know about, you don't know were from Him.  You point to evil and say there is no God..yet you point to good and give the credit to yourself.

When I realized there was a God, I could see plainly the love that He had shown me in my life, from when I was a child.  I know He loves everyone, that He loves you, so if you reflect on these things maybe you'll start to see the evidence, and see things in a new light.

Okay, but it isn't the same..they were capricious and cruel..Jesus gives eternal life to everyone..but in any case ill change it to sins

I've still got to ask, "Anyhow, how many people have come back from the dead and confirmed that there is a life after death? I mean, there's not a shred of proof for this wild statement and it's a pretty easy think to say, isn't it?"

And how do you know your sins are forgiven? I mean, I could say that I forgive your sins, couldn't I? Why wouldn't you believe me?

Oh, and on the question of eternal life, the Hindu god [wiki]Vishnu[/wiki] also offers eternal life and you don't have to believe in him - all you have to do is lead a reasonably good life and you'll get to heaven.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: JeffPT on May 18, 2011, 09:40:50 PM
This is what I will submit to you.  It isn't about evidence, it's about you. 

If I told you there was an invisible giant pink elephant behind you that you personally found no evidence for, and I said "It's not about the evidence for the pink elephant, it's about you," how would you respond to that?  Wouldn't you think.... "Gee, maybe he doesn't have any evidence."  That's where we are with you.  So put up or shut up. 

You could formulate the perfect argument, but God is personal.

If God is a personal God, then He has a lot of explaining to do.  And if he's personal to you, then maybe he just exists in your head. 

The evidence is in your life.  There are good things the Father did for you that you don't have any idea about, and the things that you do know about, you don't know were from Him.

No, it's not.  Maybe for the simpleton it is, but for the thinking individual, life is not evidence of God.  Life is evidence that living things exist.  Nothing more. 

But what about the average things, sog.  What about how I found a mediocre parking spot today at work?  What about how I got through 2 of the 5 traffic lights today on my way to work without having to stop?  Was that God's work?  Or would 3 lights have been God's work?  And what about the bad things?  When my mom had a stroke at age 34, was that also a gift from God?  Or what about how she survived that only to get breast cancer a few years later.  If there are good things that God is doing for me that I don't have any idea about, then how do you explain that the bad things are happening?  Does God want bad things to happen to us?  And if bad things DO happen to us, how can you say they are not what God intends for us? 

In a world without God, would both good and bad things happen?  Ask yourself that.  Please, ask yourself. 

Listen man, the evidence is not in our lives.  There is no evidence for God. You percieve there to be evidence, but that is only because you START with the idea that God is real, and shove everything that happens to you through that filter.  But it's just not true. 

You point to evil and say there is no God..yet you point to good and give the credit to yourself.

No, we point to the fact that good and evil are a matter of perspective, and that "good" and "bad" things would also happen if there were no God in this world, simply because we perceive them as such. 

When I realized there was a God, I could see plainly the love that He had shown me in my life, from when I was a child.  I know He loves everyone, that He loves you, so if you reflect on these things maybe you'll start to see the evidence, and see things in a new light.

Jesus effing Christ man.  Open your eyes to the suffering in this world you blind fool.  16,000 children die every day from starvation.  Unspeakable acts are committed every day against every society on earth.  Cancer kills millions of people a year.  Where is the love for the little girl stolen in the middle of the night from her warm bed, only to be raped, beaten and left for dead on the side of the road.  Your narcisism is disgusting.  You look at your life as if you are the only person in the world.  Open your EYES man.  How can you love a God such as that?  Honestly, I don't get it. 

I wouldn't believe you because you have no authority to forgive sins.  Haven't you ever seen any testimony of near death experiences?  Plenty of people have died, saw God, and were sent back.  But you don't believe them either.  It's funny, you cut off everything possible which points to God, then claim there is no evidence.

NDE's are near death experiences, sog.  Not dead, nearly dead.  So how can you say you know what happens when we die, when they aren't dead? 

Did you know that people in other cultures with other religions have NDE's as well?  Guess what they see?  Look it up and see.  I think you'll find it interesting that people who practice other religions than yours will often have experiences that fall in line with their own religious beliefs.  They don't see Jesus or Yahweh.   

Edited for copy / paste error
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Emily on May 18, 2011, 09:45:06 PM
When I realized there was a God, I could see plainly the love that He had shown me in my life, from when I was a child.  I know He loves everyone, that He loves you, so if you reflect on these things maybe you'll start to see the evidence, and see things in a new light.

What makes you so confident to think we never once sincerly sought after Jesus and this "father"[1]?

The more I reflected on these things, and the things the bible claimed, the more I saw how completely stupid the stories truly are. It isn't until you honestly examine what the tales of the writters of the bible told, and do some outside research to see how contradictory those tales are with reality, that you will finally ditch the christian faith. Perhaps you should be more honest and truly examine what you've been told by your pastor and read about in the bible, and completely understand that the gospels are not eyewitness accounts and they were not written at the time these things were happening, but decades after.

Even if there is a god and a Jesus he deserves no love for placing such hard limitations on what we shouldn't do in his eyes. To him everything is a sin, and if we sin against him, and even if we've never even had a chance to know him (I don't mean someone going onto the internet and posting about his good deeds on WWGHA. I mean those who die in third world countries at such a young age, and those who are in remote areas of the Amazon, and tribes on unchartered islands.) they burn in hell. Those people he loves, right. According to even you. But he also will find it necessary to send them to hell simply for not even hearing his name spoken, at NO fault of their own.

The christians have a great commission to follow, yet so many seem to only follow that commission locally and on the internet. That commission is so spread the word of god, but the reality is that there are far too many people for his word to be spread too that a lot of them die without hearing this commission, and their punishment, according to your god, is eternal hell, for something he placed in his followers hands, when he can save everyone the trouble and come down on a cloud and proclaim his own glory. Some god. Punishing those who didn't even have a chance to get saved. Doesn't sound like a loving being to me. Sounds like a cruel, lazy monster.

If he is truly loving he'd do some of his work on his own, without having numerous groups of indigenous people make up their own god. It's been done before. The Myans had their own god and their own version of hell long before Jesus arrived on the scene. Same with the Incas, etc. By god's laziness the members of those tribes are in hell right now for not knowing Jesus' love. It doesn't sound like Jesus loves anyone, really. He seems like the father who was never there, yet his children hope that he comes back after 10 years from picking up cigarettes and beer from the corner store, and think for ten long years that their father still loves them, until they finally begin to realize the love was never there, and neither was he.
 1. He's not my father, BTW, but a fictional character
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Death over Life on May 18, 2011, 09:52:53 PM
i meant mankind, and we do have eye witnesses accounts of life after death..thats my whole point...One of the convincing evidences, at least for the fact He was a real person, is the Talmud.  As you may know its a central text  of the jewish faith.  In it there are vicious slanders against Jesus, such as that he is in hell boiling in a vat of excrement.  Or that His miracles were really sorcery.  Stuff like that..

I know some people here think Jesus never even existed..well I would ask you, if He was a hoax, why would the jews put that in their sacred text?  If they knew He was a hoax, I think they would have written that one down.  But they didn't, they only denied His divinity.  That's because Jesus is a historical person.

All roads lead to Him..all branches of knowledge..all wisdom, all righteousness..they all have an endpoint in Jesus of Nazereth.
 Jesusauthor=Graybeard link=topic=18827.msg418848#msg418848 date=1305768263]
Jesus appeared in the flesh, we saw His whole person. 
Strangely Mark did not and doesn't mention the resurrection.

Anyway, you say, "we saw His whole person" - you never saw anything, and neither did I. Who is this "we"?
[/quote]

If it is about us and not evidence, then you should have no problems showing us. Why won’t you show us anything? You tell us you have it, but every time you tell us you are going to show it, you don’t. What gives?

I wouldn't believe you because you have no authority to forgive sins.  Haven't you ever seen any testimony of near death experiences?  Plenty of people have died, saw God, and were sent back.  But you don't believe them either.  It's funny, you cut off everything possible which points to God, then claim there is no evidence.

Says who? I personally believe Graybeard does have the power to forgive sins, as he has shown me when I came on here as a Christian compared to now. Prove to us that Graybeard doesn’t have the power, because He has shown me He does have the power, because He has forgiven me.

We have, and they do nothing. People who were Christians have told us about Heaven and Hell (which doesn’t even exist in your Bible), and had a Hindu tell us of crossing several astral plains to get to their paradise, and we’ve had Odinists tell us about Valhalla. Which near-death experience is True? To an extent, I myself have had one, and you know what I experienced? Complete non-existence! No feeling, no thought, no consciousness, no existence, nothingness. So, from what reality tells us, I’m the one who had the real near-death experience. You tell me I was supposed to be in Hell, yet I had and felt nothing, and had no idea of the existence of time when I was dead. This was back when I was a Christian, so I should have went to Heaven, and I did not meet God, nor saw any pearly gates or a book of life. Sorry, reality shows evidence once again, where all you do is claim you have evidence.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: jetson on May 18, 2011, 10:30:14 PM
Because my God, Jesus Christ, is the only one that offers you forgiveness for your sins and eternal life in paradise.  Jesus is the only God who actually came to Earth to live among us as one of us (and have witnesses to boot).  You should believe in Jesus because He took your place in calvary and paid the price for your sins.  You should believe in Jesus because He was resurrected, as the first fruits of the world to come, and broke the power of death over mankind.  You should believe in Jesus because His is the only name that you can be saved.  You should believe in Him because He justified and redeemed mankind, and restored Creation.  Believe in Him because He is a personal God, who is concerned for your personal welfare, and He will give you rest.  There are many other reasons, but primarily you should believe in Jesus because He loves you.

servantofgod,

This is an example of preaching, and it is against our forum rules.  I believe you agreed to the rules when you registered.

Jetson
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 18, 2011, 10:42:26 PM
"What makes you so confident to think we never once sincerly sought after Jesus and this "father"[nb]He's not my father, BTW, but a fictional character["

Probably because you say things like the bible is "completely stupid", or God is a "cruel, lazy monster".  Seems to indicate you don't have an ounce of sincerity in you about it.  I mean you couldn't even stop yourself mocking God in asking me this question.  It's pathological.

If you won't have respect for others, at least have respect for yourself..what kind of person are you to speak to someone else in a continuous diatribe?  The group think around this place is amazing..
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 18, 2011, 10:48:54 PM
A little late to the party, aren't we?  Did you just notice this?  How about when we had our own dialogue?  Give me a break.  In any case, you guys wanted me to come back.  I'm not going stop talking about the word of God, or conform to your conveniently narrow definition of what I am allowed to say.  Just like everyone in this thread has been free to call me any number of names and insults..im sure its in your rules not to do that..where is their correction?  If you're going to enforce the rules on me then don't be a hypocrite and enforce them on everyone.



Because my God, Jesus Christ, is the only one that offers you forgiveness for your sins and eternal life in paradise.  Jesus is the only God who actually came to Earth to live among us as one of us (and have witnesses to boot).  You should believe in Jesus because He took your place in calvary and paid the price for your sins.  You should believe in Jesus because He was resurrected, as the first fruits of the world to come, and broke the power of death over mankind.  You should believe in Jesus because His is the only name that you can be saved.  You should believe in Him because He justified and redeemed mankind, and restored Creation.  Believe in Him because He is a personal God, who is concerned for your personal welfare, and He will give you rest.  There are many other reasons, but primarily you should believe in Jesus because He loves you.

servantofgod,

This is an example of preaching, and it is against our forum rules.  I believe you agreed to the rules when you registered.

Jetson

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 18, 2011, 10:52:40 PM
You may of fooled them, but you haven't fooled me.  I know you still believe in God.

i meant mankind, and we do have eye witnesses accounts of life after death..thats my whole point...One of the convincing evidences, at least for the fact He was a real person, is the Talmud.  As you may know its a central text  of the jewish faith.  In it there are vicious slanders against Jesus, such as that he is in hell boiling in a vat of excrement.  Or that His miracles were really sorcery.  Stuff like that..

I know some people here think Jesus never even existed..well I would ask you, if He was a hoax, why would the jews put that in their sacred text?  If they knew He was a hoax, I think they would have written that one down.  But they didn't, they only denied His divinity.  That's because Jesus is a historical person.

All roads lead to Him..all branches of knowledge..all wisdom, all righteousness..they all have an endpoint in Jesus of Nazereth.
 Jesusauthor=Graybeard link=topic=18827.msg418848#msg418848 date=1305768263]
Jesus appeared in the flesh, we saw His whole person. 
Strangely Mark did not and doesn't mention the resurrection.

Anyway, you say, "we saw His whole person" - you never saw anything, and neither did I. Who is this "we"?

If it is about us and not evidence, then you should have no problems showing us. Why won’t you show us anything? You tell us you have it, but every time you tell us you are going to show it, you don’t. What gives?

I wouldn't believe you because you have no authority to forgive sins.  Haven't you ever seen any testimony of near death experiences?  Plenty of people have died, saw God, and were sent back.  But you don't believe them either.  It's funny, you cut off everything possible which points to God, then claim there is no evidence.

Says who? I personally believe Graybeard does have the power to forgive sins, as he has shown me when I came on here as a Christian compared to now. Prove to us that Graybeard doesn’t have the power, because He has shown me He does have the power, because He has forgiven me.

We have, and they do nothing. People who were Christians have told us about Heaven and Hell (which doesn’t even exist in your Bible), and had a Hindu tell us of crossing several astral plains to get to their paradise, and we’ve had Odinists tell us about Valhalla. Which near-death experience is True? To an extent, I myself have had one, and you know what I experienced? Complete non-existence! No feeling, no thought, no consciousness, no existence, nothingness. So, from what reality tells us, I’m the one who had the real near-death experience. You tell me I was supposed to be in Hell, yet I had and felt nothing, and had no idea of the existence of time when I was dead. This was back when I was a Christian, so I should have went to Heaven, and I did not meet God, nor saw any pearly gates or a book of life. Sorry, reality shows evidence once again, where all you do is claim you have evidence.
[/quote]
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Emily on May 18, 2011, 10:57:48 PM
"What makes you so confident to think we never once sincerly sought after Jesus and this "father"[nb]He's not my father, BTW, but a fictional character["

Probably because you say things like the bible is "completely stupid", or God is a "cruel, lazy monster".  Seems to indicate you don't have an ounce of sincerity in you about it.  I mean you couldn't even stop yourself mocking God in asking me this question.  It's pathological.

If you won't have respect for others, at least have respect for yourself..what kind of person are you to speak to someone else in a continuous diatribe?  The group think around this place is amazing..

Well, the the part where I called the bible "completely stupid" and god a "cruel monster" was my own opinion.

The rest of what I posted was fact. How about addressing that part.

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: jetson on May 18, 2011, 11:02:55 PM
Quote from: servantofgod
A little late to the party, aren't we?  Did you just notice this?  How about when we had our own dialogue?  Give me a break.  In any case, you guys wanted me to come back.  I'm not going stop talking about the word of God, or conform to your conveniently narrow definition of what I am allowed to say.  Just like everyone in this thread has been free to call me any number of names and insults..im sure its in your rules not to do that..where is their correction?  If you're going to enforce the rules on me then don't be a hypocrite and enforce them on everyone.

servantofgod,

You will not preach on this forum.  If you have a specific complaint against another member for breaking a rule, please use the Report to Moderator button in the reply in question.

Challenging moderator instructions in the thread is not a smart way to resolve an issue.

Jetson
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 18, 2011, 11:19:18 PM
I love how you're all business now.  You already made the mistake of allowing me to "preach" when you wanted to directly engage me with all of your atheistic angst.  Now the excitement is over..its apparent to you now Ill never embrace your nihilism, so im no fun anymore.  If there is anything the bible teaches its that human nature is completely predictable, and I've never seen it proven wrong on that point, not even once.  So please, spare me the drama and pretense of impartiality.  Stop trying to build the case and either leave me alone, or do whatever it is you planned to do already. 


Quote from: servantofgod
A little late to the party, aren't we?  Did you just notice this?  How about when we had our own dialogue?  Give me a break.  In any case, you guys wanted me to come back.  I'm not going stop talking about the word of God, or conform to your conveniently narrow definition of what I am allowed to say.  Just like everyone in this thread has been free to call me any number of names and insults..im sure its in your rules not to do that..where is their correction?  If you're going to enforce the rules on me then don't be a hypocrite and enforce them on everyone.

servantofgod,

You will not preach on this forum.  If you have a specific complaint against another member for breaking a rule, please use the Report to Moderator button in the reply in question.

Challenging moderator instructions in the thread is not a smart way to resolve an issue.

Jetson

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Emily on May 18, 2011, 11:23:37 PM
Hey SoG
(http://www.charlestlee.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/slippery-slope.jpg)
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Grimm on May 18, 2011, 11:28:54 PM
i meant mankind, and we do have eye witnesses accounts of life after death..thats my whole point...One of the convincing evidences, at least for the fact He was a real person, is the Talmud.  As you may know its a central text  of the jewish faith.  In it there are vicious slanders against Jesus, such as that he is in hell boiling in a vat of excrement.  Or that His miracles were really sorcery.  Stuff like that..

Jesus isn't referenced in the Talmud.  You're referring to the stories of Yeshu, who was about 50 years post-Jesus, or Ben Stada, who is even later.  Neither of these two are Jesus, and none of the other slanders commonly stated (Mary was a whore, Jesus was a bastard) are even in the books.  At all.  Anywhere.

... do you even verify anything people tell you, ever?


Quote

I know some people here think Jesus never even existed..well I would ask you, if He was a hoax, why would the jews put that in their sacred text?  If they knew He was a hoax, I think they would have written that one down.  But they didn't, they only denied His divinity.  That's because Jesus is a historical person.

He's not in the Talmud.


Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 18, 2011, 11:34:13 PM
Hey SoG
(http://www.charlestlee.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/slippery-slope.jpg)

I love you all but if you want to talk about truth what Jetson is doing is pure hypocripsy.  He was saying on the side with his cadre of satans little helpers that I was only here for their amusement and that they were going to try to convert me..that's why they "let me preach"

now the fun is over..they've given up.  the devil may be the accuser but he sure cant bring the case home.  thats because his evidence is doctored.  God is only good, and does no evil.  All evil in this world is a result of man.  Every last bit of it..
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 18, 2011, 11:38:04 PM
How about you get a little education beyond your atheist talking points..what you're saying isn't a fact..it is disputed.  i believe there is enough there to make the case..maybe you could try a more objective source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud

i meant mankind, and we do have eye witnesses accounts of life after death..thats my whole point...One of the convincing evidences, at least for the fact He was a real person, is the Talmud.  As you may know its a central text  of the jewish faith.  In it there are vicious slanders against Jesus, such as that he is in hell boiling in a vat of excrement.  Or that His miracles were really sorcery.  Stuff like that..

Jesus isn't referenced in the Talmud.  You're referring to the stories of Yeshu, who was about 50 years post-Jesus, or Ben Stada, who is even later.  Neither of these two are Jesus, and none of the other slanders commonly stated (Mary was a whore, Jesus was a bastard) are even in the books.  At all.  Anywhere.

... do you even verify anything people tell you, ever?


Quote

I know some people here think Jesus never even existed..well I would ask you, if He was a hoax, why would the jews put that in their sacred text?  If they knew He was a hoax, I think they would have written that one down.  But they didn't, they only denied His divinity.  That's because Jesus is a historical person.

He's not in the Talmud.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Add Homonym on May 19, 2011, 12:32:20 AM
In the modern era, Travers Herford, a Christian  scholar, concluded that the references did not provide evidence of Jesus as a historical individual, but instead were non-historical oral traditions which circulated among Jews.[1]  Additional scholarship - such as that by Johann Maier - also concluded that there was no evidence of Jesus as a historical individual, and Maier concluded that the references were examples of anti-Christian polemics that were added late in the Talmudic period.[2] 

You got me all excited, there. I thought there may have been some evidence of something.

SoG, I don't think atheists expect you to convert after a few posts, neither have they tired. Neither is it hypocrisy to allow you to quote semantically null literature at us.

You are Satan's little helper.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Astreja on May 19, 2011, 12:35:03 AM
Probably because you say things like the bible is "completely stupid", or God is a "cruel, lazy monster".  Seems to indicate you don't have an ounce of sincerity in you about it.  I mean you couldn't even stop yourself mocking God in asking me this question.  It's pathological.
SoG, we apparently have quite a different opinion as to the nature of sincerity.  What if we are right about your god being a figment of the human imagination?  What if we did sincerely examine our faith, and didn't stop examining it even when it appeared it might all come crumbling down?

Which is more sincere -- Clinging to a beloved idea, or ripping away the veil to see what's behind it?  IMO, it's the latter.

Our real-life experiences have led us away from Christianity, and I for one have taken a vow to never go back.  I consider Christianity to be a blight upon humanity, teaching immoral concepts like Original Sin and substitutionary atonement, and enforcing the indoctrination through fear.

There is nothing in Christianity that I want.  I have no interest in worshipping a god that would consign anyone to Hell; I won't debase My morality by agreeing to let someone else die in My place; and I have no particular interest in eternal life.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on May 19, 2011, 12:46:38 AM
God is only good, and does no evil.  All evil in this world is a result of man.  Every last bit of it..

Your bible doesn't agree with you.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Your god admits to creating evil and being jealous[1]--and proud of it.  He also expects you to praise him for all of his acts of wanton genocide.


No evil, my ass.  &)

 1. Exodus 20:5
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 01:37:16 AM
Yes, your will your way..another quote from the evil one..it never ceases to amaze me how often i hear his words from unbelievers lips.  If I'm wrong then what difference does it make..some random accident or illness will take me out and within a short period of time, no one will even remember that I existed, certainly no one here.  If you're wrong, you are

A.  Totally deceived by the devil (because you love evil more than you do good).  Basically just another puppet to be thrown in the cosmic trash heap (lake of fire) on judgement day. 

B.  Completely ignorant as to why you exist

C.  Living a futile existence, having utterly failed at the one thing you were supposed to do.

You look at this cesspool called civilization and you actually feel admiration.  For matter, you would sell your very soul.  I can't think of anything more heartbreaking than that.  The fortunes of tomorrow are always calling to you, but never arriving.  You are so blind you can't even see what's in front of your face.  Are you Pagan? 

God is calling all of His children to repentence.  It is to the Lord Jesus Christ that every knee will bow, and every haughty voice will be silenced. 

Like it or not, all sin will be punished, irrespective of person or imagined goodness.  Doesn't matter how good you think you are.  Like it or not, you have a fallen nature, and your only escape clause is in Christ.  Like it or not, you won't get another chance.

Let me tell you this..there won't be anyone in hell saying "hey, you've got the wrong guy!"  Everyone who goes there will know they deserve to be there.  Gods judgement is just, and everyone has a fair chance to make it. 

You act like God wants to send people to hell.  He doesn't want to punish anyone, but He isn't going to tolerate sin.  He set a day for its ending, and He let the entire world know about it.  This evil will have an end on judgement day.  All of the work of the devil will be plucked out like it never existed.

I don't want you, or anyone, to experience the torment of the second death.  I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, if I had any.  I'm saying all of this to you because God isn't kidding.  He is going to do everything He promised to do.  You convict yourself with every syllable.  Please, I urge you, ask God to forgive your sins and be your Lord and Savior..tomorrow might be too late.







 
Probably because you say things like the bible is "completely stupid", or God is a "cruel, lazy monster".  Seems to indicate you don't have an ounce of sincerity in you about it.  I mean you couldn't even stop yourself mocking God in asking me this question.  It's pathological.
SoG, we apparently have quite a different opinion as to the nature of sincerity.  What if we are right about your god being a figment of the human imagination?  What if we did sincerely examine our faith, and didn't stop examining it even when it appeared it might all come crumbling down?

Which is more sincere -- Clinging to a beloved idea, or ripping away the veil to see what's behind it?  IMO, it's the latter.

Our real-life experiences have led us away from Christianity, and I for one have taken a vow to never go back.  I consider Christianity to be a blight upon humanity, teaching immoral concepts like Original Sin and substitutionary atonement, and enforcing the indoctrination through fear.

There is nothing in Christianity that I want.  I have no interest in worshipping a god that would consign anyone to Hell; I won't debase My morality by agreeing to let someone else die in My place; and I have no particular interest in eternal life.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 01:39:59 AM
Do your research.  The evil that the passage is referring to is not a moral evil, but rather calamities in the world, such as natural disasters. 

God is only good, and does no evil.  All evil in this world is a result of man.  Every last bit of it..

Your bible doesn't agree with you.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Your god admits to creating evil and being jealous[1]--and proud of it.  He also expects you to praise him for all of his acts of wanton genocide.


No evil, my ass.  &)
 1. Exodus 20:5
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on May 19, 2011, 02:07:36 AM
Yes, your will your way..another quote from the evil one..it never ceases to amaze me how often i hear his words from unbelievers lips.  If I'm wrong then what difference does it make..some random accident or illness will take me out and within a short period of time, no one will even remember that I existed, certainly no one here.  If you're wrong, you are

*snip*

This is nothing more than Pascel's Wager

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

I forget; did anyone already told you why this is a terrible argument?


Do your research.  The evil that the passage is referring to is not a moral evil, but rather calamities in the world, such as natural disasters. 

This doesn't really refute the arguement.  You're still saying god causes evil things to happen(even though you're saying he doesn't).  You also failed to address the other points brought up.  But then, I guess there's little to argue when god proudly proclaims his name to be Jealous, and is also proud of his acts of genocide.  I guess when the rapture happens in a couple of days, you'll be praising Jealous for all the violence and mayham that occurs(even though he should be able to seek out a less violence solution).
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on May 19, 2011, 02:27:51 AM
Double posting, I know, but serventofgod, have you accepted Harry Potter as your lord and savior?  I know you might be rolling your eyes at this point, thinking I'm talking nonsense.  But ask yourself: why do I feel this void in my heart?  You have tried to fill it with "Jesus", but you know in your heart of heart, that Jesus is imaginary.  Deep down, you know Harry Potter is the one true savior.  How do we know Harry Potter is real?  Good question!  We have several irrefutable reasons to believe.

1) We have several accounts of Harry Potter that were written in his lifetime.  Jesus didn't get any until decades after his death.
2) There were multiple eyewitness to the actions and accounts of Harry Potter, and they are all verifiable to be contemporaries of Harry Potter!  Consider the accounts of Ron Weasley, Hermione Granger, Luna Lovegood and Neville Longbottom, among others.
3) We know England is a real place, and that London exists.  The books of Harry Potters talks of England and London.  So there!

Even if you dismiss all that, you still need to account for the Battle of Hogwarts, where Harry Potter had his final confrontation with Voldemort.  If Harry Potter is not our lord and savior, then you need to account for everything that happened.  Remember, there were multiple eyewitnesses.

The answer of course, is that Harry Potter IS our lord and savior, and YOU need to stop denying this!  Wake up and open your heart!  Wake up before it is too late!
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on May 19, 2011, 05:04:10 AM
A little late to the party, aren't we?  Did you just notice this?  How about when we had our own dialogue?  Give me a break.  In any case, you guys wanted me to come back.  I'm not going stop talking about the word of God, or conform to your conveniently narrow definition of what I am allowed to say.  Just like everyone in this thread has been free to call me any number of names and insults..im sure its in your rules not to do that..where is their correction?  If you're going to enforce the rules on me then don't be a hypocrite and enforce them on everyone.

I personally try to give people a lot of chances before I step in and call them on their ignorant, dishonest disregard for the rules they agreed to follow when asking for permission to participate in the forum.

If Jetson hasn't called you on it yet, it's probably the same thing. It's patientce with people who simply may have made a mistake.

Are you now plainly saying you do not intend to keep your word (the one you gave when signing up) to follow forum rules regarding preaching? YES or NO?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on May 19, 2011, 05:07:32 AM
Jesus appeared in the flesh, we saw His whole person.  Though even that wasn't enough for Thomas to believe, who had to touch His wounds to believe He had risen.

Reported for preaching.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: jetson on May 19, 2011, 06:17:06 AM
Quote from: servantofgod
I love how you're all business now.  You already made the mistake of allowing me to "preach" when you wanted to directly engage me with all of your atheistic angst.  Now the excitement is over..its apparent to you now Ill never embrace your nihilism, so im no fun anymore.  If there is anything the bible teaches its that human nature is completely predictable, and I've never seen it proven wrong on that point, not even once.  So please, spare me the drama and pretense of impartiality.  Stop trying to build the case and either leave me alone, or do whatever it is you planned to do already

Thank you for your honesty.  ;D

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on May 19, 2011, 07:01:17 AM
ServantOfGod, you are going to stop preaching here, and that's all there is to it.  (I'd hazard a guess that it's probably going to happen sometime today, judging by the responses I'm seeing to your posts over the past several hours or so.)  You can either stop by choosing to do so yourself, or you can stop by having the moderators prevent it thru one or more of the methods available to them.  How it happens is up to you, but that it happens is not.  Even Christ himself cannot help you with this one.  If you don't believe me, by all means, pray to him and ask him to let you continue preaching here, and watch what happens.  I actually hope you try this, now that I think about it.  There may actually be one chance in a thousand that you'll learn something, or at least that it will give you pause for a moment.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: SteveNoBelieve on May 19, 2011, 07:02:00 AM
So your life is predestined? Well matey, I'm guessing you will also say you have free will, but you can't have it both ways, ie it's either free will or determinism. Since you elect for the latter you are nothing more than a a puppet - to you determinism is palatable and intelligible, whereas it's actually either palatable but unintelligible or unpalatable but intelligible. Make your mind up. Oh sorry of course you can't that's already been taken care of...
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 19, 2011, 07:28:11 AM
Jesus appeared in the flesh, we saw His whole person.  Though even that wasn't enough for Thomas to believe, who had to touch His wounds to believe He had risen.


So can you also quote the Illiad to demonstrate how the pagan gods interfered in the Trojan war?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 19, 2011, 07:29:40 AM
Okay, but it isn't the same..they were capricious and cruel..Jesus gives eternal life to everyone..but in any case ill change it to sins

Because my God, Jesus Christ, is the only one that offers you salvation from death and eternal life in paradise. 
No, that's not quite true. The Greek Gods also offered and gave immortality to mortals.

Anyhow, how many people have come back from the dead and confirmed that there is a life after death? I mean, there's not a shred of proof for this wild statement and it's a pretty easy think to say, isn't it?

More unsupported assertions noted
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 19, 2011, 07:32:58 AM
i meant mankind, and we do have eye witnesses accounts of life after death..thats my whole point

Truly, these eye witness accounts.....how are the  verified. What about the eye witness accounts of other gods, in other cultures? Do you treat those with any note of skepticism?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Anfauglir on May 19, 2011, 07:48:45 AM
Anfauglir, if you want my opinion it's your complete lack of sincerity.  You don't believe God is real.  How do you pray to God when you don't even think He is there? 

Pardon me Soggy, but isn't that exactly the point?  You said - and I apologise for quoting you yet again, but we need to remain clear about what you actually said - this:

I have not held back the truth, which is this:
You can know Christ, personally, today, by calling upon His in prayer and asking Him to reveal Himself to you.

So I did.  I did EXACTLY what you said.  I asked, honestly and sincerely, to be shown

And nothing happened.

Now, of course, you wish to move the goalposts yet again, and try to claim I was not being "sincere" enough.  So I'll repeat for your benefit what I have said before: if Christ really exists, I WANT TO KNOW IT.  It would be the biggest shake-up in my life, the most important piece of information I could come to know.  So please don't try to tell me I wasn't asking sincerely, because I was.

Just one more point:

When you can muster an iota of faith that He is there.....perhaps you'll see Him. 

Sorry Soggy - what you are saying is that I have to believe before I can believe.  And apart from being both ridiculous and disingenuous, once again flies in the face of everything you said before.  Which, once again, I feel I need to quote to you.

He has set it on me to tell you that He will prove it to you.  Pray like this:  Jesus, if you're real, I want to know about it.  I want to know you.  Please let me know you're real.  God bless.

So call out to Him and He will come.  I don't know anything about before, I just know now is the time.  God bless. 

Jesus is calling to you now.  He is calling you to come to Him and know Him personally.  .....try one more time.  You will not be disappointed.

Jesus put it on my heart to come here and tell you, and anyone else here who will listen, that if you ask to know Him sincerely, if you pray to Him and ask if He is real, He will reveal Himself to you.  I know He is serious about it so please, try Him once more.  If you seek you will find.  

You knew perfectly well that I didn't believe.  I asked you what I needed to do.  You told me what to do, and you were perfectly clear about it.  Not a word about "believing first", just "ask and you will get proof".

AND IT DIDN'T WORK.

And now the best you can do is backtrack and bleat that "of course it didn't work, you didn't believe!".  That's exactly the point, my muddle-thinking friend!  I DON'T believe - that's why I was asking for him to show himself so that I WOULD believe!!!!

So what I ask - again - is why you lied to me - to us - so many times?  Why you made us so many promises that god has failed to keep?

And again I say: did you lie, or did your god lie?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Anfauglir on May 19, 2011, 08:46:38 AM
You know what?  I'd be more than happy to have a one-on-one with servant of god, to discuss the question "You can know Christ, personally, today". 

I would propose that Servant of God and I discuss in that one-on-one exactly what needs to happen for that statement to be substantiated.  When we are agreed that the instructions are clear (so that there can be no misunderstnding), on the following day I will carry out whatever actions have been agreed upon.

Frankly, I look forward to it.  As I have said several times now, if there IS a god, then I want to know it.  Clear and unambiguous instructions from one who has been before, who has assured me that "now is the time", is something to be welcomed.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on May 19, 2011, 08:54:18 AM
You know what?  I'd be more than happy to have a one-on-one with servant of god, to discuss the question "You can know Christ, personally, today". 

I would propose that Servant of God and I discuss in that one-on-one exactly what needs to happen for that statement to be substantiated.  When we are agreed that the instructions are clear (so that there can be no misunderstnding), on the following day I will carry out whatever actions have been agreed upon.

Frankly, I look forward to it.  As I have said several times now, if there IS a god, then I want to know it.  Clear and unambiguous instructions from one who has been before, who has assured me that "now is the time", is something to be welcomed.

That's a good idea.  I have an even better one, or to be more precise, an expansion on this one.  How about if you follow SoG's conditions precisely, and Christ does not reveal himself to you, SoG will agree to become an atheist?  It's only fair, isn't it?  He's asking you to put your entire worldview on the line; shouldn't he be willing to do the same?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: velkyn on May 19, 2011, 09:19:30 AM
You look at this cesspool called civilization and you actually feel admiration.  For matter, you would sell your very soul.  I can't think of anything more heartbreaking than that.  The fortunes of tomorrow are always calling to you, but never arriving.  You are so blind you can't even see what's in front of your face.  Are you Pagan? 

Love the total hypocrisy here, SOG.  Isn't it nice to use a computer, to have antibiotics, to watch tv, to have a nice house that protects you and those you love?  That's all civilization and you use it every single day.  Poor little hypocrite.  Now, SOG, you should go live in a nice mud hut and not dare use any of the benefits of this civilization you despise so much or your god will damn you since you sold your soul to this nasty nasty civilization.   

And now watch the excuses fly.   
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 10:26:19 AM
Anfauglir, I said the prayer needs to be sincere..notice you're forgetting that part.  I would say that your prayer was rejected for the dog and pony show that it was.  It's my hope that Jesus will have mercy on you anyway and reveal Himself at some point.

If you can't manage to even humble yourself and pray a sincere prayer, not much I can tell you to do is going to make a lick of difference.  I can't instruct you on how to turn on your heart.  I could make a recommendation, however, to you and anyone who really wants to seek out the Lord, if you are in fact serious about what you say.

Begin a fast, let it last for at least a week.  Don't tell anyone that you're fasting.  Don't give any indication to anyone that you are discomforted in any way.  Let it be between you and God.  Read these books, one a day:  Matthew Mark Luke John Acts Romans and Revelation.  Squeeze in 1st Corinthians in there somewhere.  Research the things you don't understand.  Ask questions.  Try christianforums.com

Find a non-denominational church and attend all of their services for that week.  Seek out the pastor and tell him/her that you're there to find God, that you don't know him.    Engage him, but don't turn it into a platform for your atheism.  Try to be open to what he says.

Pray, often and fervently.  Ask for forgiveness for your sins.  Pour them right out of you and give them up to God.  Pray to know Him.  Realize that you are saved by grace, that you could never earn your salvation, that as it is you don't deserve it.  Humble yourself.   For tips on this check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHxs3gdtV8A <-- C S Lewis, in his own voice

I'm pretty sure no one would ever do these things who didn't honestly want to know God.  So Anfauglir, if you really do want to know God, you have your mission.  If you are sincere, and it would be hard to fake it in these circumstances, He *will* reveal Himself to you.  Since He isn't accepting your insincere prayer, you're going to need to prove it in real terms.  Pretty words aren't going to save your life.  God bless. 

You know what?  I'd be more than happy to have a one-on-one with servant of god, to discuss the question "You can know Christ, personally, today". 

I would propose that Servant of God and I discuss in that one-on-one exactly what needs to happen for that statement to be substantiated.  When we are agreed that the instructions are clear (so that there can be no misunderstnding), on the following day I will carry out whatever actions have been agreed upon.

Frankly, I look forward to it.  As I have said several times now, if there IS a god, then I want to know it.  Clear and unambiguous instructions from one who has been before, who has assured me that "now is the time", is something to be welcomed.


Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Persephone on May 19, 2011, 11:02:11 AM
Anfauglir, I said the prayer needs to be sincere..notice you're forgetting that part.  I would say that your prayer was rejected for the dog and pony show that it was.

So let me get this straight. YOU decided that he wasn't sincere? Who died and made you god?

If you get to be the judge of his sincerity, how on earth can your point be disproved? If you and he conduct this experiment together and it fails, you get to say that he wasn't sincere. If you and he conduct this experiment together and it works, you get to say that God is good. Sounds like you get to win either way.

Do you see a problem with this logic?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Asmoday on May 19, 2011, 11:02:56 AM
I can't help but to find it absolutely hilarious how "You can know God today if you ask him" suddenly turns into a week long physical and spiritual exercise. And even then it all hinges on "sincerity." Not to mention the sincerity is judged by SoG solely on weather you turned Christian or not.

I would make the guess that whatever you do, you will always be accused of not being sincere by SoG as long as the result is not that you have found God and you became a good Christian. I doubt there is room in his worldview that you can sincerely ask for God and Jesus to reveal themselves but all you get is static (almost as if they would not exist at all).
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Add Homonym on May 19, 2011, 11:13:08 AM
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1655415,00.html

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on May 19, 2011, 11:13:16 AM
It's funny how servantofgod suddenly added a bunch of conditions for Anfauglir to follow.  Before, it was enough that he prays sincerely.  Now he needs to:

1) Fast
2) DON'T TELL ANYONE (I find this condition veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery interesting...)
3) Read a large clump of the bible
4) Do research and ask questions... but only from a christian source
5) Attend a non-denominational church
6) Immerse yourself in the woo.

Well, why not tell us all this sooner.  It looks very much like you're moving the goalpost after god does nothing.


By the way, you didn't respond to this, and you should, as your eternal fate rest upon it!

Double posting, I know, but serventofgod, have you accepted Harry Potter as your lord and savior?  I know you might be rolling your eyes at this point, thinking I'm talking nonsense.  But ask yourself: why do I feel this void in my heart?  You have tried to fill it with "Jesus", but you know in your heart of heart, that Jesus is imaginary.  Deep down, you know Harry Potter is the one true savior.  How do we know Harry Potter is real?  Good question!  We have several irrefutable reasons to believe.

1) We have several accounts of Harry Potter that were written in his lifetime.  Jesus didn't get any until decades after his death.
2) There were multiple eyewitness to the actions and accounts of Harry Potter, and they are all verifiable to be contemporaries of Harry Potter!  Consider the accounts of Ron Weasley, Hermione Granger, Luna Lovegood and Neville Longbottom, among others.
3) We know England is a real place, and that London exists.  The books of Harry Potters talks of England and London.  So there!

Even if you dismiss all that, you still need to account for the Battle of Hogwarts, where Harry Potter had his final confrontation with Voldemort.  If Harry Potter is not our lord and savior, then you need to account for everything that happened.  Remember, there were multiple eyewitnesses.

The answer of course, is that Harry Potter IS our lord and savior, and YOU need to stop denying this!  Wake up and open your heart!  Wake up before it is too late!
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 19, 2011, 11:28:12 AM
I can't help but to find it absolutely hilarious how "You can know God today if you ask him" suddenly turns into a week long physical and spiritual exercise. And even then it all hinges on "sincerity." Not to mention the sincerity is judged by SoG solely on weather you turned Christian or not.

I would make the guess that whatever you do, you will always be accused of not being sincere by SoG as long as the result is not that you have found God and you became a good Christian. I doubt there is room in his worldview that you can sincerely ask for God and Jesus to reveal themselves but all you get is static (almost as if they would not exist at all).

Just another "No true Scottsman" Very popular this week.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 11:31:12 AM
So your life is predestined? Well matey, I'm guessing you will also say you have free will, but you can't have it both ways, ie it's either free will or determinism. Since you elect for the latter you are nothing more than a a puppet - to you determinism is palatable and intelligible, whereas it's actually either palatable but unintelligible or unpalatable but intelligible. Make your mind up. Oh sorry of course you can't that's already been taken care of...

Check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH2DEOxvaWk&feature=related
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on May 19, 2011, 11:32:17 AM
Just another "No true Scottsman" Very popular this week.

Yep, pretty much.  SoG is basically asking us to flip a coin and saying, "Heads I win, tails doesn't count."  In the immortal words of JOSHUA: "A strange game.  The only winning move is not to play."
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 11:32:30 AM
The reason I said don't tell anyone you're fasting is:

Matthew 6:16-18

"When you fast, don't make yourselves look sad. The hypocrites do that. Don't be like the hypocrites. They make their faces look strange to show people that they are fasting. I tell you the truth, those hypocrites already have their full reward. So when you fast, make yourself look nice. Wash your face. Then people will not know that you are fasting. But your Father that you cannot see will see you. Your Father sees the things that are done in secret. And he will reward you."

It's funny how servantofgod suddenly added a bunch of conditions for Anfauglir to follow.  Before, it was enough that he prays sincerely.  Now he needs to:

1) Fast
2) DON'T TELL ANYONE (I find this condition veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery interesting...)
3) Read a large clump of the bible
4) Do research and ask questions... but only from a christian source
5) Attend a non-denominational church
6) Immerse yourself in the woo.

Well, why not tell us all this sooner.  It looks very much like you're moving the goalpost after god does nothing.


By the way, you didn't respond to this, and you should, as your eternal fate rest upon it!

Double posting, I know, but serventofgod, have you accepted Harry Potter as your lord and savior?  I know you might be rolling your eyes at this point, thinking I'm talking nonsense.  But ask yourself: why do I feel this void in my heart?  You have tried to fill it with "Jesus", but you know in your heart of heart, that Jesus is imaginary.  Deep down, you know Harry Potter is the one true savior.  How do we know Harry Potter is real?  Good question!  We have several irrefutable reasons to believe.

1) We have several accounts of Harry Potter that were written in his lifetime.  Jesus didn't get any until decades after his death.
2) There were multiple eyewitness to the actions and accounts of Harry Potter, and they are all verifiable to be contemporaries of Harry Potter!  Consider the accounts of Ron Weasley, Hermione Granger, Luna Lovegood and Neville Longbottom, among others.
3) We know England is a real place, and that London exists.  The books of Harry Potters talks of England and London.  So there!

Even if you dismiss all that, you still need to account for the Battle of Hogwarts, where Harry Potter had his final confrontation with Voldemort.  If Harry Potter is not our lord and savior, then you need to account for everything that happened.  Remember, there were multiple eyewitnesses.

The answer of course, is that Harry Potter IS our lord and savior, and YOU need to stop denying this!  Wake up and open your heart!  Wake up before it is too late!
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Persephone on May 19, 2011, 11:36:01 AM
All of this about fasting is irrelevant, servantofgod, because your experiment has left no room for a result that doesn't suit you.

If you get to be the judge of his sincerity, how on earth can your point be disproved? If you and he conduct this experiment together and it fails, you get to say that he wasn't sincere. If you and he conduct this experiment together and it works, you get to say that God is good. Sounds like you get to win either way.

Do you see a problem with this logic?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 11:37:36 AM
It's not for me to judge.  Anf asked what else he should try, so I gave him an answer.  I know there are people here with doubts who know they need God and can pray that simple prayer with sincerity, and will get an answer.  I also know there are others here who make a pretense or show of it, and those I doubt will ever get an answer.  So, the only solution in my view, if there is honestly in you something that wants to know God, something that knows that your carnal self is not who you really are, then try what I said. 

It's not that everyone has to do these things to know God..it's that people who really don't believe in God, who have spent all of their time mocking him and leading others to sin, are going to need to work a little harder at it than mumbling a few words that you don't even believe could possibly be true.

I can't help but to find it absolutely hilarious how "You can know God today if you ask him" suddenly turns into a week long physical and spiritual exercise. And even then it all hinges on "sincerity." Not to mention the sincerity is judged by SoG solely on weather you turned Christian or not.

I would make the guess that whatever you do, you will always be accused of not being sincere by SoG as long as the result is not that you have found God and you became a good Christian. I doubt there is room in his worldview that you can sincerely ask for God and Jesus to reveal themselves but all you get is static (almost as if they would not exist at all).
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 11:38:38 AM
It's not an experiment, it's advice.  Just because you couldn't/wouldn't do it, doesn't mean its not good advice.


All of this about fasting is irrelevant, servantofgod, because your experiment has left no room for a result that doesn't suit you.

If you get to be the judge of his sincerity, how on earth can your point be disproved? If you and he conduct this experiment together and it fails, you get to say that he wasn't sincere. If you and he conduct this experiment together and it works, you get to say that God is good. Sounds like you get to win either way.

Do you see a problem with this logic?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 19, 2011, 11:44:15 AM
It's not an experiment, it's advice.  Just because you couldn't do it, doesn't mean its not good advice.


And how would you view someone who gave you "good advice" to leave a burnt offering on the Altar of Hera for prosperty?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 11:46:50 AM
Great comparison.  Because reading a book, talking to people, praying in humility, and denying yourself are just like that.

It's not an experiment, it's advice.  Just because you couldn't do it, doesn't mean its not good advice.


And how would you view someone who gave you "good advise" to leave a burnt offering on the Alter of Hera for prosperty?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 19, 2011, 11:47:37 AM
Great comparison.  Because reading a book, talking to people, praying in humility, and denying yourself are just like that.

It's not an experiment, it's advice.  Just because you couldn't do it, doesn't mean its not good advice.


And how would you view someone who gave you "good advise" to leave a burnt offering on the Alter of Hera for prosperty?

Yes. Actually exactly like that. Well, not exactly like that, but exactly like what you originally posted and are trying to weasel around.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 11:48:41 AM
Thanks for your opinion.  Great talk.

Great comparison.  Because reading a book, talking to people, praying in humility, and denying yourself are just like that.

It's not an experiment, it's advice.  Just because you couldn't do it, doesn't mean its not good advice.


And how would you view someone who gave you "good advise" to leave a burnt offering on the Alter of Hera for prosperty?

Yes. Actually exactly like that.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 19, 2011, 11:50:02 AM
Thanks for your opinion.  Great talk.

Great comparison.  Because reading a book, talking to people, praying in humility, and denying yourself are just like that.

It's not an experiment, it's advice.  Just because you couldn't do it, doesn't mean its not good advice.


And how would you view someone who gave you "good advise" to leave a burnt offering on the Alter of Hera for prosperty?

Yes. Actually exactly like that.

So are you not capable of answering the question? Or will you do so with weaseling misdirections again?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 11:56:10 AM
No, it's nothing like that.  The entire comparison is invalid.  I was directly asked what someone should do to know the judeo christian God.  If I asked someone how I should know their God and they told me, I would say thank you.  Someone asked me a question, I answered.   Your particular brand of pseudo logic is completely disingenuous from the outset.   

Thanks for your opinion.  Great talk.

Great comparison.  Because reading a book, talking to people, praying in humility, and denying yourself are just like that.

It's not an experiment, it's advice.  Just because you couldn't do it, doesn't mean its not good advice.


And how would you view someone who gave you "good advise" to leave a burnt offering on the Alter of Hera for prosperty?

Yes. Actually exactly like that.

So are you not capable of answering the question? Or will you do so with weaseling misdirections again?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Persephone on May 19, 2011, 12:02:25 PM
It's not an experiment, it's advice.  Just because you couldn't/wouldn't do it, doesn't mean its not good advice.

Discussing this issue with you is rather like playing Whack-a-Mole. You move as it suits you. And you don't even see it.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on May 19, 2011, 12:04:53 PM
No, it's nothing like that.  The entire comparison is invalid.  I was directly asked what someone should do to know the judeo christian God.

And you keep changing your answer.  First you said that all we had to do was sincerely ask Yahweh to reveal himself to us, and he would.  We asked, he didn't reveal himself to us, so you started moving the goalposts.  That won't fly here.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: ZenZen on May 19, 2011, 12:11:13 PM
It's clever that you call it advice instead of a challenge SoG. Now you don't have to take our "advice", right?. Really sneaky clever, I must say.  :laugh:

You're are not familiar with people who are persistent and who actually want answers, are you? Shame - real shame.  :-\
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 12:13:03 PM
For such learned and wise men (cough), your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired..no goal posts were moved..any who prays that original prayer sincerely will come to know Jesus..but admittedly it probably already requires that you have some doubt about your position, and feel a need to know God, for the sincerity factor.  Someone having no such feeling or need, I suggested a more intensive solution designed to immerse someone in Gods Word, where hopefully they will see that they do need Jesus.  If your intellects are so stout and trustworthy, you certainly won't be fooled into believing something..so you really have nothing to lose but some time.  You might even lose weight.

No, it's nothing like that.  The entire comparison is invalid.  I was directly asked what someone should do to know the judeo christian God.

And you keep changing your answer.  First you said that all we had to do was sincerely ask Yahweh to reveal himself to us, and he would.  We asked, he didn't reveal himself to us, so you started moving the goalposts.  That won't fly here.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Graybeard on May 19, 2011, 12:20:26 PM
@Servant of god:

Try this Bible Quiz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk)
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Bagheera on May 19, 2011, 12:26:53 PM
For such learned and wise men (cough), your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired..no goal posts were moved..any who prays that original prayer sincerely will come to know Jesus..but admittedly it probably already requires that you have some doubt about your position, and feel a need to know God, for the sincerity factor.  Someone having no such feeling or need, I suggested a more intensive solution designed to immerse someone in Gods Word, where hopefully they will see that they do need Jesus.  If your intellects are so stout and trustworthy, you certainly won't be fooled into believing something..so you really have nothing to lose but some time.  You might even lose weight.

No, it's nothing like that.  The entire comparison is invalid.  I was directly asked what someone should do to know the judeo christian God.

And you keep changing your answer.  First you said that all we had to do was sincerely ask Yahweh to reveal himself to us, and he would.  We asked, he didn't reveal himself to us, so you started moving the goalposts.  That won't fly here.

Servantofgod, the problem with your advice is that even if we were able to follow your advice as you posited it[1], at best it would merely give me a temporary sensation of feeling something that could be interpreted to be God. I could reach a similar experience, in shorter time, with drugs. But once I start comparing that feeling with Real Life(tm), I would have to conclude that that feeling of God is no more than a feeling, without any basis in fact beyond my perception.

Is that what you mean by a personal experience? That your belief in something, independent of any way to validate that belief, defines reality for everyone else?
 1. It would be difficult for me to pray "sincerely" to God, anymore than you could pray sincerely to Thor
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 19, 2011, 12:27:53 PM
No, it's nothing like that.  The entire comparison is invalid.  I was directly asked what someone should do to know the judeo christian God.  If I asked someone how I should know their God and they told me, I would say thank you.  Someone asked me a question, I answered.   Your particular brand of pseudo logic is completely disingenuous from the outset.   



Pseudologic? You play a lot of red herrings and just now I caught you in, of all things, an equivocation on a pronoun, when avoiding the fact that your argument is predicated on a No True Scottsman. HA!
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Dante on May 19, 2011, 12:32:00 PM
For such learned and wise men (cough), your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired..no goal posts were moved..any who prays that original prayer sincerely will come to know Jesus..but admittedly it probably already requires that you have some doubt about your position, and feel a need to know God, for the sincerity factor.  Someone having no such feeling or need, I suggested a more intensive solution designed to immerse someone in Gods Word, where hopefully they will see that they do need Jesus.  If your intellects are so stout and trustworthy, you certainly won't be fooled into believing something..so you really have nothing to lose but some time.  You might even lose weight.

So we have to suspend our logic, stop using our brains, and SINCERELY seek out your god to find him?

Sounds a whole lot like self-induced delusion.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 12:41:11 PM
No, I'm saying it's something you can verify.  Having faith in God isn't dependent on feelings, because feelings come and go.  If God reveals himself to you, believe me..you won't be scratching your head wondering if it was him or not.

For such learned and wise men (cough), your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired..no goal posts were moved..any who prays that original prayer sincerely will come to know Jesus..but admittedly it probably already requires that you have some doubt about your position, and feel a need to know God, for the sincerity factor.  Someone having no such feeling or need, I suggested a more intensive solution designed to immerse someone in Gods Word, where hopefully they will see that they do need Jesus.  If your intellects are so stout and trustworthy, you certainly won't be fooled into believing something..so you really have nothing to lose but some time.  You might even lose weight.

No, it's nothing like that.  The entire comparison is invalid.  I was directly asked what someone should do to know the judeo christian God.

And you keep changing your answer.  First you said that all we had to do was sincerely ask Yahweh to reveal himself to us, and he would.  We asked, he didn't reveal himself to us, so you started moving the goalposts.  That won't fly here.

Servantofgod, the problem with your advice is that even if we were able to follow your advice as you posited it[1], at best it would merely give me a temporary sensation of feeling something that could be interpreted to be God. I could reach a similar experience, in shorter time, with drugs. But once I start comparing that feeling with Real Life(tm), I would have to conclude that that feeling of God is no more than a feeling, without any basis in fact beyond my perception.

Is that what you mean by a personal experience? That your belief in something, independent of any way to validate that belief, defines reality for everyone else?
 1. It would be difficult for me to pray "sincerely" to God, anymore than you could pray sincerely to Thor
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 12:42:30 PM
Are you aware that the person who invented this fallacy converted to Christianity? :) 

Double HA!

No, it's nothing like that.  The entire comparison is invalid.  I was directly asked what someone should do to know the judeo christian God.  If I asked someone how I should know their God and they told me, I would say thank you.  Someone asked me a question, I answered.   Your particular brand of pseudo logic is completely disingenuous from the outset.   



Pseudologic? You play a lot of red herrings and just now I caught you in, of all things, an equivocation on a pronoun, when avoiding the fact that your argument is predicated on a No True Scottsman. HA!
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Graybeard on May 19, 2011, 12:43:54 PM
Are you aware that the person who invented this fallacy converted to Christianity? :) 

Double HA!


Does this mean that the fallacy isn't a fallacy or are you still wrong?

I don't think [wiki]Antony Flew[/wiki] did convert to Christianity; at best he became a theist, and even that is in dispute.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 12:44:48 PM
I enjoyed it, it was amusing.  I'll get back to you later when I have some time to research a couple of points.


@Servant of god:

Try this Bible Quiz
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on May 19, 2011, 12:45:25 PM
For such learned and wise men (cough), your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired..no goal posts were moved

Like hell they weren't.

Quote
any who prays that original prayer sincerely will come to know Jesus..but admittedly it probably already requires that you have some doubt about your position, and feel a need to know God, for the sincerity factor.

Hatter has already pointed this out, but I'll add my voice just to reinforce it:

SoG:  "Anyone who prays sincerely will come to know Jesus!"
Pianodwarf:  "I tried that, just like you said, and nothing happened."
SoG:  "That just proves that you weren't sincere."

This is the logical fallacy known as "No True Scotsman".  If you don't know what that is, look it up.  I'm not in the mood to provide links today.

You then followed up with:

SoG:  "If praying didn't work for you, do this other stuff."

You originally said that anyone who prays sincerely will come to know Jesus, and now you're saying that we need to do other stuff.  That is most definitely "moving the goalposts".

Anyway, it's not like I can prove it or anything, so I'll just have to give you my word: if Yahweh exists, I absolutely and sincerely do want to know about it.  I don't want to live my life on a fundamentally incorrect foundation.  The reason I am an atheist is that no one has ever given me any reason to believe that anything supernatural actually exists, and also because I know enough about how the brain works to know that so-called "supernatural" experiences can almost always be explained as natural phenomena.

Quote
Someone having no such feeling or need, I suggested a more intensive solution designed to immerse someone in Gods Word, where hopefully they will see that they do need Jesus.

There are similar "conditioning" programs used elsewhere.  In fact, cults often use them for brainwashing.  Not going to subject myself to that... I've spent entirely too much time, money, and effort training my mind to risk destroying it that way.

Quote
If your intellects are so stout and trustworthy, you certainly won't be fooled into believing something..

Our intellects are stout and trustworthy, but we're not infallible.  Besides which, things like fasting can and often do impair critical thinking skills.  It's no wonder that people who fast have visions and the like -- their brains aren't working properly due to lack of nutrition.

Quote
so you really have nothing to lose but some time.

We've got a lot more to lose than that.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on May 19, 2011, 12:46:26 PM
Are you aware that the person who invented this fallacy converted to Christianity? :) 

Double HA!

I don't know for sure whether that's true or not, but even if it is, so what?  He was probably wearing shoes at the time, too.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 19, 2011, 12:49:54 PM
Are you aware that the person who invented this fallacy converted to Christianity? :) 

Double HA!


Does this mean that the fallacy isn't a fallacy or are you still wrong?

And is he aware that this qualifies for the "Appeal to Authority" fallacy?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Bagheera on May 19, 2011, 12:50:14 PM
Yes, your will your way..another quote from the evil one..it never ceases to amaze me how often i hear his words from unbelievers lips.  If I'm wrong then what difference does it make..some random accident or illness will take me out and within a short period of time, no one will even remember that I existed, certainly no one here.

Or, if you are wrong, you will have misspent a great portion of your finite life pursuing the goals of people millenia dead for no other reason than because you wanted to believe a fairy tale.

Or, if you are wrong, you will spend the rest of your after life in the gloomy realm of Hades, having not properly spent your life determining the proper way to worship the Greek gods.

Or, if you are wrong, you will miss out on Valhalla or Folkvangr for not properly seeking death in battle, as you would have done if you had sought out the proper worship of the Alllfather, Odin.

And so on. This does not even include the possibility that only those who truly seek out truth and recognize religion for  the delusion that it is and attempt to better the lives of themselves and others will pass God's "secret test". It is in the forgotten Gospels:

Bag1.1 "Yea, and the Lord saith unto me, that the whole Bible thing was a test to separate the sycophants from those who are Good in and of themselves; and none who think genocide, killing babies and eternal torture are suitable punishment for thinking for yourself, shall enter Heaven."

The problem with Pascal's Wager, is that its not a wager. It's a decision from fear, and ignorance. Fear of the results of the wrong option; ignorance of other options.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 12:53:16 PM
What it means is that I just served hatter..that's all.  As far as the fallacy applies to Christianity, I understand an example is the salvation question..some believe once saved always saved, some believe you can lose your salvation...no true Christian will ever lose his faith as an example.  Well no true dog will grow wings and fly either..thats one, I mean its entirely logical..a true christian wouldn't ever be in danger of losing their salvation..but what is a true christian?  there are varying levels of faith in people..a true Christian is just someone who follows Christ..if they don't follow Christ they were never saved in the first place
Are you aware that the person who invented this fallacy converted to Christianity? :) 

Double HA!


Does this mean that the fallacy isn't a fallacy or are you still wrong?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Persephone on May 19, 2011, 12:53:56 PM
I don't know for sure whether that's true or not, but even if it is, so what?  He was probably wearing shoes at the time, too.

If he took off one shoe and carried it over his shoulder, he could have been a follower of Brian (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uywIYQEHZLs.).
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 12:54:50 PM
It's true.  The inventor is Anthony Flew, once the worlds most famous atheist and pre-eminent thinker..take a look

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1e4FUhfHiU

Are you aware that the person who invented this fallacy converted to Christianity? :) 

Double HA!

I don't know for sure whether that's true or not, but even if it is, so what?  He was probably wearing shoes at the time, too.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Graybeard on May 19, 2011, 12:57:24 PM
What it means is that I just served hatter..that's all.  As far as the fallacy applies to Christianity, I understand an example is the salvation question..some believe once saved always saved, some believe you can lose your salvation...no true Christian will ever lose his faith as an example.  Well no true dog will grow wings and fly either..thats one, I mean its entirely logical..a true christian wouldn't ever be in danger of losing their salvation..but what is a true christian?  there are varying levels of faith..a true Christian is just someone who follows Christ..if they don't follow Christ they were never saved in the first place
Here is a simple version of the fallacy - you might understand this one:
The term was advanced by philosopher Antony Flew in his 1975 book Thinking About Thinking: Do I sincerely want to be right?.

    Teacher: All Scotsmen enjoy haggis.
    Student: My uncle is a Scotsman, and he doesn't like haggis!
    Teacher: Well, all true Scotsmen like haggis.

When the statement "all A are B" is qualified like this to exclude those A which are not B, this is a form of begging the question; the conclusion is assumed by the definition of "true A"

Does this help?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on May 19, 2011, 12:57:52 PM
serventofgod, why did you quote me, but failed to address my point?  Accept Harry Potter as your lord and savoir before it is too late!

Quote
Double posting, I know, but serventofgod, have you accepted Harry Potter as your lord and savior?  I know you might be rolling your eyes at this point, thinking I'm talking nonsense.  But ask yourself: why do I feel this void in my heart?  You have tried to fill it with "Jesus", but you know in your heart of heart, that Jesus is imaginary.  Deep down, you know Harry Potter is the one true savior.  How do we know Harry Potter is real?  Good question!  We have several irrefutable reasons to believe.

1) We have several accounts of Harry Potter that were written in his lifetime.  Jesus didn't get any until decades after his death.
2) There were multiple eyewitness to the actions and accounts of Harry Potter, and they are all verifiable to be contemporaries of Harry Potter!  Consider the accounts of Ron Weasley, Hermione Granger, Luna Lovegood and Neville Longbottom, among others.
3) We know England is a real place, and that London exists.  The books of Harry Potters talks of England and London.  So there!

Even if you dismiss all that, you still need to account for the Battle of Hogwarts, where Harry Potter had his final confrontation with Voldemort.  If Harry Potter is not our lord and savior, then you need to account for everything that happened.  Remember, there were multiple eyewitnesses.

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 19, 2011, 12:58:47 PM
It's true.  The inventor is Anthony Flew, once the worlds most famous atheist and pre-eminent thinker..take a look


Are you aware that the person who invented this fallacy converted to Christianity? :) 

Double HA!

I don't know for sure whether that's true or not, but even if it is, so what?  He was probably wearing shoes at the time, too.

Oh Anthony Flew...who converted to DEISM not Christianity. After being lied to. When he was elderly, and died soon after. Never heard of him until the Christian brigade began trumpeting his supposed coversion, this "Most Notorius Atheist" whose fame peaked in actual philosophical circles in 1961.

So "Ignoring the Counterevidence" on top of "Appeal to Authority"



Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Bagheera on May 19, 2011, 12:59:57 PM
No, I'm saying it's something you can verify.  Having faith in God isn't dependent on feelings, because feelings come and go.  If God reveals himself to you, believe me..you won't be scratching your head wondering if it was him or not.

That is very odd, because so far  the arguments for the existence of God primarily consist of "I believe; if you pray HARD ENOUGH you will believe too." The implication is that the only component of God's existence is belief. I can believe many things under the right conditions, including that someone is stalking me, that a backpack is filled with explosives[1], that Arnold Schwarzenegger is happily married and faithful to Maria Shriver, that my heels were filled with cement[2].

I cannot recall every believing in Biblegod, though every once in a while I have asked in my head and out loud if He was there, just in case. Having not received any reply that wasn't indistinguishable from background noise, I need more than anecdotal evidence from people who desperately WANT to believe and are convinced that I should believe too.

I know a lot of people who believe in ghosts, but few have been able to present convincing evidence of them. How is belief in Biblegod any different?
 1. once when I worked security and came across an unattended backpack in an underground garage; it turned out to be filled with books
 2. while high
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 01:03:10 PM
Thanks for the unwarrented condescension, but I perfectly understand what it means.  Doesn't apply here..it's not hard to see that many of you are probably completely incapable of praying sincerely judging from the content you've vomited up about God..I think my skepticism of your sincerity is entirely warrented.

What it means is that I just served hatter..that's all.  As far as the fallacy applies to Christianity, I understand an example is the salvation question..some believe once saved always saved, some believe you can lose your salvation...no true Christian will ever lose his faith as an example.  Well no true dog will grow wings and fly either..thats one, I mean its entirely logical..a true christian wouldn't ever be in danger of losing their salvation..but what is a true christian?  there are varying levels of faith..a true Christian is just someone who follows Christ..if they don't follow Christ they were never saved in the first place
Here is a simple version of the fallacy - you might understand this one:
The term was advanced by philosopher Antony Flew in his 1975 book Thinking About Thinking: Do I sincerely want to be right?.

    Teacher: All Scotsmen enjoy haggis.
    Student: My uncle is a Scotsman, and he doesn't like haggis!
    Teacher: Well, all true Scotsmen like haggis.

When the statement "all A are B" is qualified like this to exclude those A which are not B, this is a form of begging the question; the conclusion is assumed by the definition of "true A"

Does this help?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 19, 2011, 01:03:48 PM
What it means is that I just served hatter..that's all.
Does this mean that the fallacy isn't a fallacy or are you still wrong?
[/quote]
[/quote]

So how does not answering his question, when using an appeal to authority, qualify as "serving" me?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on May 19, 2011, 01:04:34 PM
It's true.  The inventor is Anthony Flew, once the worlds most famous atheist and pre-eminent thinker..take a look

And, again, so what?  A logical fallacy is a logical fallacy, regards of the religious views of the person explaining it.

If we were arguing about whether Nikon or Canon made better digital cameras, and you said that the founder of Canon left the company and became a Nikon user, would that "prove" that Nkon makes better cameras?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on May 19, 2011, 01:05:39 PM
If he took off one shoe and carried it over his shoulder, he could have been a follower of Brian (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uywIYQEHZLs.).

Silence, blasphemer!  This is his gourd!
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 19, 2011, 01:05:59 PM
Thanks for the unwarrented condescension, but I perfectly understand what it means.  Doesn't apply here..it's not hard to see that many of you are probably completely incapable of praying sincerely judging from the content you've vomited up about God..I think my skepticism of your sincerity is entirely warrented.

What it means is that I just served hatter..that's all.  As far as the fallacy applies to Christianity, I understand an example is the salvation question..some believe once saved always saved, some believe you can lose your salvation...no true Christian will ever lose his faith as an example.  Well no true dog will grow wings and fly either..thats one, I mean its entirely logical..a true christian wouldn't ever be in danger of losing their salvation..but what is a true christian?  there are varying levels of faith..a true Christian is just someone who follows Christ..if they don't follow Christ they were never saved in the first place
Here is a simple version of the fallacy - you might understand this one:
The term was advanced by philosopher Antony Flew in his 1975 book Thinking About Thinking: Do I sincerely want to be right?.

    Teacher: All Scotsmen enjoy haggis.
    Student: My uncle is a Scotsman, and he doesn't like haggis!
    Teacher: Well, all true Scotsmen like haggis.

When the statement "all A are B" is qualified like this to exclude those A which are not B, this is a form of begging the question; the conclusion is assumed by the definition of "true A"

Does this help?

Given that you were engaging in this fallacy, repeatedly, and then trying to show, incorrectly, that you were not, the condecention is more than warrented.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 01:06:19 PM
All I am hearing is excuses..if you want to know the truth you have to seek it out.  Any fool knows that.  It isn't going to land in your lap and do a little dance for your amusement.  I really doubt many of you have ever honestly tried, or have even actually read the bible, which would make your criticism of it complete hypocripsy.  It's like writing literary reviews based on the table of contents. 

No, I'm saying it's something you can verify.  Having faith in God isn't dependent on feelings, because feelings come and go.  If God reveals himself to you, believe me..you won't be scratching your head wondering if it was him or not.

That is very odd, because so far  the arguments for the existence of God primarily consist of "I believe; if you pray HARD ENOUGH you will believe too." The implication is that the only component of God's existence is belief. I can believe many things under the right conditions, including that someone is stalking me, that a backpack is filled with explosives[1], that Arnold Schwarzenegger is happily married and faithful to Maria Shriver, that my heels were filled with cement[2].

I cannot recall every believing in Biblegod, though every once in a while I have asked in my head and out loud if He was there, just in case. Having not received any reply that wasn't indistinguishable from background noise, I need more than anecdotal evidence from people who desperately WANT to believe and are convinced that I should believe too.

I know a lot of people who believe in ghosts, but few have been able to present convincing evidence of them. How is belief in Biblegod any different?
 1. once when I worked security and came across an unattended backpack in an underground garage; it turned out to be filled with books
 2. while high
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Persephone on May 19, 2011, 01:07:10 PM
All I am hearing is excuses..if you want to know the truth you have to seek it out.  Any fool knows that. 

Pot, meet Kettle.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 01:07:50 PM
Gallery, meet peanut.

All I am hearing is excuses..if you want to know the truth you have to seek it out.  Any fool knows that. 

Pot, meet Kettle.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on May 19, 2011, 01:10:27 PM
I really doubt many of you have ever honestly tried, or have even actually read the bible

And you would be astoundingly, breathtakingly wrong.  Most of the atheists here at WWGHA have read the bible cover-to-cover, more than once and in more than one translation.  Some of the atheists here even used to be ministers and reverends and so on.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Graybeard on May 19, 2011, 01:12:22 PM
I really doubt many of you have ever honestly tried, or have even actually read the bible, which would make your criticism of it complete hypocripsy.  It's like writing literary reviews based on the table of contents.
Sorry you are wrong. There are a few threads around here in which members tell of how they have read the Bible. Correcting Christians in their incomplete delusions of what they think God said makes for a very good knowledge of theology amongst atheists.

As far as I can see so far, you have merely made a few statements about what you believe. Nowhere have you mentioned the evidence you have for your belief and nowhere have you, even remotely, established that there is a god, or - and more importantly - that he might be a Judeo-Christian god.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Persephone on May 19, 2011, 01:13:23 PM
I really doubt many of you have ever honestly tried, or have even actually read the bible

And you would be astoundingly, breathtakingly wrong.  Most of the atheists here at WWGHA have read the bible cover-to-cover, more than once and in more than one translation.  Some of the atheists here even used to be ministers and reverends and so on.

He seems to know an awful lot about us. Next thing he'll be telling us what our favorite drinks or sexual positions are. Damn he's good.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 01:13:45 PM
I stand corrected, he did convert to deism..however, this nonsense about being lied to when he was old and about to die..come on..there are many videos of him being quite articulate on the subject..his mind was not enfeebled..what youre implying is complete fabrication..

how about Peter Hitchens, Christopher Hitchens brother..supposedly the brain trust for the entire atheist community..how do you explain him?

It's true.  The inventor is Anthony Flew, once the worlds most famous atheist and pre-eminent thinker..take a look


Are you aware that the person who invented this fallacy converted to Christianity? :) 

Double HA!

I don't know for sure whether that's true or not, but even if it is, so what?  He was probably wearing shoes at the time, too.

Oh Anthony Flew...who converted to DEISM not Christianity. After being lied to. When he was elderly, and died soon after. Never heard of him until the Christian brigade began trumpeting his supposed coversion, this "Most Notorius Atheist" whose fame peaked in actual philosophical circles in 1961.

So "Ignoring the Counterevidence" on top of "Appeal to Authority"
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Bagheera on May 19, 2011, 01:15:59 PM
Thanks for the unwarrented condescension, but I perfectly understand what it means.  Doesn't apply here..it's not hard to see that many of you are probably completely incapable of praying sincerely judging from the content you've vomited up about God..I think my skepticism of your sincerity is entirely warrented.

A. If you prayed sincerely to God, you would know God.
B. I prayed to God. Nothing happened.
A. You didn't pray sincerely.

Seem like the condescension might be warranted.

I think that servantofgod may have a point, because I think the fallacy here is begging the question, isn't it? It would appear that if one does not believe in God, one cannot pray sincerely to God, because you can't pray sincerely to something that you don't believe in. If I am incorrect, please let me know.

This takes an interesting turn, because if I don't believe that the television works, I can still press the button on the remote. If that doesn't work, I can change the battery in the remote. If that doesn't work, I can press the power button on the TV manually, check the power strip the TV is plugged into, and check to see that the electricity is on in the house. I can do all these things, even if I believe that the TV is broken. . . and if at some point, the TV turns on, I know that the TV works. Even if we believe the TV doesn't work, we can still take steps to try to turn it on.

What we get from many TrueBelievers(tm) is that we can only get the TV to turn on if we believe that it works. . . and that if it doesn't turn on, we are not believing sincerely enough.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 19, 2011, 01:18:10 PM
I stand corrected, he did convert to deism..however, this nonsense about being lied to when he was old and about to die..come on..there are many videos of him being quite articulate on the subject..his mind was not enfeebled..what youre implying is complete fabrication..

how about Peter Hitchens, Christopher Hitchens brother..supposedly the brain trust for the entire atheist community..how do you explain him?

It's true.  The inventor is Anthony Flew, once the worlds most famous atheist and pre-eminent thinker..take a look


Are you aware that the person who invented this fallacy converted to Christianity? :) 

Double HA!

I don't know for sure whether that's true or not, but even if it is, so what?  He was probably wearing shoes at the time, too.

Oh Anthony Flew...who converted to DEISM not Christianity. After being lied to. When he was elderly, and died soon after. Never heard of him until the Christian brigade began trumpeting his supposed coversion, this "Most Notorius Atheist" whose fame peaked in actual philosophical circles in 1961.

So "Ignoring the Counterevidence" on top of "Appeal to Authority"

It is still an appeal to Authority...in a weird way because you are only using a relative of the authority. Listen "appeal to Authority" is a fallacy for a reason, Just because Einstein was smart in the realm of physics, does not mean he had the best grasp of international monetary theory. Someone trying to quote Einstein in order to support his position on International Monetary Theory is commiting a fallacy.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 01:18:25 PM
yeah, right..having read the bible myself, i can tell when people have an actual knowledge of it or when they are just copying and pasting atheist talking points..you all seem to think that you're so original but I have to tell you..atheists have a group mind and a group think far worse than anything Ive ever seen.  you parrot eachother..there is no original thought there..you act like you've just discovered something new and interesting..but this new atheism is just old atheism in new packaging, with modern angst and repressed rage at God thrown in..thinkers who lived 1000 years before you were born said it far better than any of you ever will, and unlike atheists of today, they actually did it with air of civility.

I really doubt many of you have ever honestly tried, or have even actually read the bible, which would make your criticism of it complete hypocripsy.  It's like writing literary reviews based on the table of contents.
Sorry you are wrong. There are a few threads around here in which members tell of how they have read the Bible. Correcting Christians in their incomplete delusions of what they think God said makes for a very good knowledge of theology amongst atheists.

As far as I can see so far, you have merely made a few statements about what you believe. Nowhere have you mentioned the evidence you have for your belief and nowhere have you, even remotely, established that there is a god, or - and more importantly - that he might be a Judeo-Christian god.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Bagheera on May 19, 2011, 01:19:15 PM
No, I'm saying it's something you can verify.
Having faith in God isn't dependent on feelings, because feelings come and go.  If God reveals himself to you, believe me..you won't be scratching your head wondering if it was him or not.

How?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on May 19, 2011, 01:22:42 PM
All I am hearing is excuses..if you want to know the truth you have to seek it out.  Any fool knows that.  It isn't going to land in your lap and do a little dance for your amusement.  I really doubt many of you have ever honestly tried, or have even actually read the bible, which would make your criticism of it complete hypocripsy.  It's like writing literary reviews based on the table of contents. 

You're one to talk about hypocrisy.  YOU are a hypocrite.  You expect us to sit down, shut up, listen to your preaching, and absorb every word of it.  Yet, what happens when someone tries preaching to you?  You walk away and pretend you never heard a single word.  I've tried preaching the good news about Harry Potter to you in post 256, 273--which you quoted in post 277-- and 307.   Even though you quoted the entire thing in post 277, You ignored every word of it, and talked about other things instead.  You do this, yet you accuse us of hypocrisy?!  At least we're responding to you and commenting on your points, even if we're disagreeing with them.  You, however, cannot be bothered to do the same in return.  You can dish it out, but you can't take it.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on May 19, 2011, 01:23:43 PM
yeah, right..having read the bible myself, i can tell when people have an actual knowledge of it or when they are just copying and pasting atheist talking points

This is a highly insulting thing to say.  If I were you, I'd take it back.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Historicity on May 19, 2011, 01:24:25 PM
Fasting.

I skip breakfast.  There is a seasonal charity I work for -- never mind what.  I was far behind schedule and the deadline was coming.  I had to drive to a number of places.

I started out about noon.  I had a snack instead of a meal.  I stopped at a few places and did my work.  I had a long circuit to do and I was going to get in 7 hours.  Then in the parking lot walking back to my car I felt oddly heavy.  I put it out of my mind.  I drove out of the parking lot to a street that ended in a T with a 1 lane road with traffic from the right.

I looked for a gap in the traffic and started to make a left hand turn.

I SLAMMED THE BRAKE!  There was a stop light in front of me and it was red.  I wondered how I had failed to notice.  Then as I waited I kept finding myself looking for a gap in traffic to make a turn thru the light. I kept looking back at the light and while I intellectually knew what the light was I could not convince myself at an emotional level.  I could not feel the significance.  I was having trouble hanging on to rational thought.

I knew I was not in condition to drive but there was no way to turn back there.  I figured I was not in condition to talk to people or my thoughts would be out of order.  I did stop one place to rest and slowly drink ice water.  I was scared.  I stopped one more place to talk to a friend (a secretary whose family is involved in the same charity) and eat a piece of candy.   She pointed out the pattern of events suggested low blood sugar.  I acknowledged that I often feel sleepy about an hour after lunch and I realized it was low blood sugar until the lunch digested.

I got back home and counted the day a loss.

So I eat something like a hard-boiled egg even if I don't feel I have time for breakfast and I don't lose energy in the early afternoon.

I'm not going to try a week of fasting to see if low blood sugar makes me suggestible.

Such fasting is recommended by quite a few religions as a way to see a deity appear such as the pagan Anglo-Saxons who saw the Bright Raven (from which the name Bertram) or the ones who saw the Bright Deer (from which Robert) quite like the American Indians who would see their totem.

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 01:25:55 PM
I think that servantofgod may have a point, because I think the fallacy here is begging the question, isn't it? It would appear that if one does not believe in God, one cannot pray sincerely to God, because you can't pray sincerely to something that you don't believe in. If I am incorrect, please let me know.

What we get from many TrueBelievers(tm) is that we can only get the TV to turn on if we believe that it works. . . and that if it doesn't turn on, we are not believing sincerely enough.

Thank you.  Someones brain in here is actually working..that's good to know.  I don't agree with the rest of it but that was exactly my point.

And TV example is a poor example..a tv is something you can see..God, you can't see..until the encore

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Bagheera on May 19, 2011, 01:26:27 PM
yeah, right..having read the bible myself, i can tell when people have an actual knowledge of it or when they are just copying and pasting atheist Christian talking points..you all seem to think that you're so original but I have to tell you..atheists Christians have a group mind and a group think far worse than anything Ive ever seen.  you parrot eachother..there is no original thought there..you act like you've just discovered something new and interesting..but this new atheism Christianity is just old atheism in new packaging mythology, with modern angst and repressed rage at God thrown in..thinkers who lived 1000 years before you were born said it far better than any of you ever will, and unlike atheists Christians of today, they actually did it with air of civility with zest in their belief as they tortured and killed in the name of God.
Does that look at all familiar?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on May 19, 2011, 01:29:00 PM
yeah, right..having read the bible myself, i can tell when people have an actual knowledge of it or when they are just copying and pasting atheist Christian talking points..you all seem to think that you're so original but I have to tell you..atheists Christians have a group mind and a group think far worse than anything Ive ever seen.  you parrot eachother..there is no original thought there..you act like you've just discovered something new and interesting..but this new atheism Christianity is just old atheism in new packaging mythology, with modern angst and repressed rage at God thrown in..thinkers who lived 1000 years before you were born said it far better than any of you ever will, and unlike atheists Christians of today, they actually did it with air of civility with zest in their belief as they tortured and killed in the name of God.
Does that look at all familiar?

Just a bit.  +1.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 01:30:02 PM
Fasting is good in any context..it's healthy.  If you have blood sugar problems obviously I would not advise you to do that.  In fact ill amend my suggestion.  And, according to your logic, after the fast you would go back to being completely brillant again and then of course you would sneer at it once more..so what's the difference..

Fasting.

I skip breakfast.  There is a seasonal charity I work for -- never mind what.  I was far behind schedule and the deadline was coming.  I had to drive to a number of places.

I started out about noon.  I had a snack instead of a meal.  I stopped at a few places and did my work.  I had a long circuit to do and I was going to get in 7 hours.  Then in the parking lot walking back to my car I felt oddly heavy.  I put it out of my mind.  I drove out of the parking lot to a street that ended in a T with a 1 lane road with traffic from the right.

I looked for a gap in the traffic and started to make a left hand turn.

I SLAMMED THE BRAKE!  There was a stop light in front of me and it was red.  I wondered how I had failed to notice.  Then as I waited I kept finding myself looking for a gap in traffic to make a turn thru the light. I kept looking back at the light and while I intellectually knew what the light was I could not convince myself at an emotional level.  I could not feel the significance.  I was having trouble hanging on to rational thought.

I knew I was not in condition to drive but there was no way to turn back there.  I figured I was not in condition to talk to people or my thoughts would be out of order.  I did stop one place to rest and slowly drink ice water.  I was scared.  I stopped one more place to talk to a friend (a secretary whose family is involved in the same charity) and eat a piece of candy.   She pointed out the pattern of events suggested low blood sugar.  I acknowledged that I often feel sleepy about an hour after lunch and I realized it was low blood sugar until the lunch digested.

I got back home and counted the day a loss.

So I eat something like a hard-boiled egg even if I don't feel I have time for breakfast and I don't lose energy in the early afternoon.

I'm not going to try a week of fasting to see if low blood sugar makes me suggestible.

Such fasting is recommended by quite a few religions as a way to see a deity appear such as the pagan Anglo-Saxons who saw the Bright Raven (from which the name Bertram) or the ones who saw the Bright Deer (from which Robert) quite like the American Indians who would see their totem.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 01:32:07 PM
lol.  and a lot of atheists are liars too.  Ive spoken to some of these so-called ex christian ministers over the years, and they didn't know anything about the bible either..which is probablywhy they became atheists in the first place..there is a phenomena of atheists online claiming to be ex christians so they can have that talking point..ive yet to meet any that actually knew anything..its the parable of the sower:

Behold, there went out a sower to sow: And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the birds of the air came and devoured it up. And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. And some fell among thorns, the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. And other fell on good ground, did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, some a hundred. He said unto them, He that has ears to hear, let him hear.[3]

And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables? The sower soweth the word. And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, and the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful. And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

I would say if any of them were Christians, which some of them may have been, the bolded part applies to them.





I really doubt many of you have ever honestly tried, or have even actually read the bible

And you would be astoundingly, breathtakingly wrong.  Most of the atheists here at WWGHA have read the bible cover-to-cover, more than once and in more than one translation.  Some of the atheists here even used to be ministers and reverends and so on.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on May 19, 2011, 01:35:58 PM
lol.  and a lot of atheists are liars too.  Ive spoken to some of these so-called ex christian ministers over the years, and they didn't know anything about the bible either..which is why they became atheists in the first place.

Actually, many of the atheists here became atheists because they read the bible.  Isaac Asimov said that the bible, properly read, was the "most potent force for atheism ever conceived".  I don't know that I'd say it quite that strongly, but I generally agree with him.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Bagheera on May 19, 2011, 01:36:09 PM
I think that servantofgod may have a point, because I think the fallacy here is begging the question, isn't it? It would appear that if one does not believe in God, one cannot pray sincerely to God, because you can't pray sincerely to something that you don't believe in. If I am incorrect, please let me know.

What we get from many TrueBelievers(tm) is that we can only get the TV to turn on if we believe that it works. . . and that if it doesn't turn on, we are not believing sincerely enough.

Thank you.  Someones brain in here is actually working..that's good to know.  I don't agree with the rest of it but that was exactly my point.

And TV example is a poor example..a tv is something you can see..God, you can't see..until the encore

You are not following through, though.

I may have properly identified the fallacy (I say MAY, because I think both fallacies may actually apply) but the point is this; you come on here with claims that we can know God. . . if we pray. But yet, by your fallacious argument, we cannot know God unless we already believe in God.

So why the whole prayer debacle? We won't don't believe in God, until we pray sincerely to God. We can't pray sincerely to God, unless we believe that God exists. So clearly, the next move here is God's; he can instill knowledge of his existence in my head, and because he is God and knows me, he will do it in such a way that satisfies my pragmatic mind.

The reason that this is not likely to happen (and note I say not likely instead of will not, because I am an agnostic atheist) is because this eliminates the need for churches, clergy, and evangelists, who all claim to have the one true path to salvation, if you listen to them. God does not need middle men, but the middle men sure do need belief in their way to God and salvation.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on May 19, 2011, 01:38:40 PM
lol.  and a lot of atheists are liars too.  Ive spoken to some of these so-called ex christian ministers over the years, and they didn't know anything about the bible either..which is probablywhy they became atheists in the first place..there is a phenomena of atheists online claiming to be ex christians so they can have that talking point..ive yet to meet any that actually knew anything..its the parable of the sower:

Behold, there went out a sower to sow: And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the birds of the air came and devoured it up. And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. And some fell among thorns, the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. And other fell on good ground, did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, some a hundred. He said unto them, He that has ears to hear, let him hear.[3]

And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables? The sower soweth the word. And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, and the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful. And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

I would say if any of them were Christians, which some of them may have been, the bolded part applies to them.

And once again you preach and ignore me.  Why are you ignoring my points?

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,18827.msg419048.html#msg419048

You're one to talk about hypocrisy.  YOU are a hypocrite.  You expect us to sit down, shut up, listen to your preaching, and absorb every word of it.  Yet, what happens when someone tries preaching to you?  You walk away and pretend you never heard a single word.  I've tried preaching the good news about Harry Potter to you in post 256, 273--which you quoted in post 277-- and 307.   Even though you quoted the entire thing in post 277, You ignored every word of it, and talked about other things instead.  You do this, yet you accuse us of hypocrisy?!  At least we're responding to you and commenting on your points, even if we're disagreeing with them.  You, however, cannot be bothered to do the same in return.  You can dish it out, but you can't take it.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 01:38:46 PM
Untrue, you don't have to entirely believe God is real when you try to know Him..that's the whole point, you're trying to find out if He is real..but if the sincere desire is not in your heart to know Him, and you're treating it like some kind of thought experiment, where God is just some variable you are calculating, I would not call that sincere..

I think that servantofgod may have a point, because I think the fallacy here is begging the question, isn't it? It would appear that if one does not believe in God, one cannot pray sincerely to God, because you can't pray sincerely to something that you don't believe in. If I am incorrect, please let me know.

What we get from many TrueBelievers(tm) is that we can only get the TV to turn on if we believe that it works. . . and that if it doesn't turn on, we are not believing sincerely enough.

Thank you.  Someones brain in here is actually working..that's good to know.  I don't agree with the rest of it but that was exactly my point.

And TV example is a poor example..a tv is something you can see..God, you can't see..until the encore

You are not following through, though.

I may have properly identified the fallacy (I say MAY, because I think both fallacies may actually apply) but the point is this; you come on here with claims that we can know God. . . if we pray. But yet, by your fallacious argument, we cannot know God unless we already believe in God.

So why the whole prayer debacle? We won't don't believe in God, until we pray sincerely to God. We can't pray sincerely to God, unless we believe that God exists. So clearly, the next move here is God's; he can instill knowledge of his existence in my head, and because he is God and knows me, he will do it in such a way that satisfies my pragmatic mind.

The reason that this is not likely to happen (and note I say not likely instead of will not, because I am an agnostic atheist) is because this eliminates the need for churches, clergy, and evangelists, who all claim to have the one true path to salvation, if you listen to them. God does not need middle men, but the middle men sure do need belief in their way to God and salvation.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Bagheera on May 19, 2011, 01:45:05 PM
SNIP

Behold, there went out a sower to sow: And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the birds of the air came and devoured it up. And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. And some fell among thorns, the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. And other fell on good ground, did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, some a hundred. He said unto them, He that has ears to hear, let him hear.[3]

SNIP


Quote from: Matthew 21:18-22
18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.

 20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.

 21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

I quote this only to illustrate a couple of points:

That if Jesus can blast a fig tree to make a point, he can damn well provide reinforcement to those poor deluded Christians when they start asking question like "Why wouldn't jesus just bless the fig tree so that the next person walking by would have something to eat?" and "If I believe, and pray, then why won't Jesus heal my amputee son like he promised in the parable"?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 01:46:00 PM
I'm not ignoring you Aaron, there were just more important replies to get to before I got to your harry potter example..which is completely ridiculous.  Lets get realistic..Jesus was the single most influential person who ever lived.  Same goes for the bible, most influential work of all time, by far.  The societies we live in, which were founded on Christian principles, and still largely is run by them, makes works like harry potter possible..Do you think anyone is going to be writing Harry Potter in Iran?  I mean if you want to talk about an evil religion, Islam is right there.  Yet atheists never talk about Islam, even though it is quantifiably evil..my guess is that they are just moral cowards who are afraid of getting shot.  Did you know America is the only country in the history of the world to be founded from religious persecution?  If Christianity is so terrible, explain America..and most of the rest of the western world..there isn't any comparison in what you're talking about..

lol.  and a lot of atheists are liars too.  Ive spoken to some of these so-called ex christian ministers over the years, and they didn't know anything about the bible either..which is probablywhy they became atheists in the first place..there is a phenomena of atheists online claiming to be ex christians so they can have that talking point..ive yet to meet any that actually knew anything..its the parable of the sower:

Behold, there went out a sower to sow: And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the birds of the air came and devoured it up. And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. And some fell among thorns, the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. And other fell on good ground, did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, some a hundred. He said unto them, He that has ears to hear, let him hear.[3]

And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables? The sower soweth the word. And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, and the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful. And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

I would say if any of them were Christians, which some of them may have been, the bolded part applies to them.

And once again you preach and ignore me.  Why are you ignoring my points?

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,18827.msg419048.html#msg419048

You're one to talk about hypocrisy.  YOU are a hypocrite.  You expect us to sit down, shut up, listen to your preaching, and absorb every word of it.  Yet, what happens when someone tries preaching to you?  You walk away and pretend you never heard a single word.  I've tried preaching the good news about Harry Potter to you in post 256, 273--which you quoted in post 277-- and 307.   Even though you quoted the entire thing in post 277, You ignored every word of it, and talked about other things instead.  You do this, yet you accuse us of hypocrisy?!  At least we're responding to you and commenting on your points, even if we're disagreeing with them.  You, however, cannot be bothered to do the same in return.  You can dish it out, but you can't take it.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on May 19, 2011, 01:54:34 PM
Untrue, you don't have to entirely believe God is real when you try to know Him..that's the whole point, you're trying to find out if He is real..but if the sincere desire is not in your heart to know Him, and you're treating it like some kind of thought experiment, where God is just some variable you are calculating, I would not call that sincere..

Let me try to address this.

Most atheists, including me, are skeptics.  We tend not to believe things unless and until given sufficient reason to think that it's true.  What we want or don't want to be true doesn't enter into it.  If someone says that Bigfoot exists, we'll decide for ourselves whether it's correct based on whatever evidence is offered by the one proclaiming belief in Bigfoot.  If such evidence is not provided, we will not accept the existence of Bigfoot.

We take this approach with everything, including claims of deities.  To us, having a "sincere desire in our heart" to think that something is true is irrelevant and, in fact, the scientific method is specifically designed, in part, to eliminate that kind of bias on the part of any individual investigating any particular matter.

I once knew a woman who was absolutely convinced that Yahweh existed -- she said there was simply no more room for doubt about his existence than there was for her own.  She said she had this conviction because she "felt a connection to him so strongly" that it simply could not possibly be false.  That may be fine for convincing her, but it won't work with a skeptic.  Most skeptics would probably just dismiss the claim out of hand; if feeling a bit more patient or indulgent, a skeptic might say, "OK, so you say you have some new sense perception that allows you to connect with the supernatural?  Fine, let's get you into the lab so we can test it."

The thing is, personal revelation (of the type that is not objectively verifiable) is simply not reliable as a source of knowledge for anything.  The mind is not nearly so reliable as some might think.  For example:  I have a memory -- a highly-detailed one, I might add -- of a scene from the original "Star Trek" series in which the Enterprise is orbiting a planet, then it encounters a storm that knocks it out of orbit.  After struggling for some moments, the crew manages to get the ship out of the storm, and Kirk asks for a damage report.  Spock reports that the Enterprise has lost one of its engine nacelles.  The camera then cuts to an external of the ship, showing that the starboard nacelle is missing.

Now, any Trek fan can tell you that no such scene ever took place in any episode of Classic Trek -- and yet there it is in my memory.  How did it get there?  I have no idea -- but it certainly wasn't from watching TV.  If my mind can screw up a memory of Classic Trek, there's no reason to believe that it wouldn't screw up a vision of the supernatural -- which I've also had, by the way, but I think I've made my point.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Bagheera on May 19, 2011, 01:55:14 PM
Untrue, you don't have to entirely believe God is real when you try to know Him..that's the whole point, you're trying to find out if He is real..but if the sincere desire is not in your heart to know Him, and you're treating it like some kind of thought experiment, where God is just some variable you are calculating, I would not call that sincere..


It is a thought experiment. I open my self to the question "Is anyone there? Does God exist?" And if god exists as an omnipotent, all-knowing being, then He knows that I am asking Him the best way that I can, but doesn't respond in any way that is meaningful or understandable to me. Either God is not powerful enough to make himself known to me, doesn't know that I'm trying to reach Him, or doesn't care to respond. Since by all accounts God is omnipotent and all-knowing, then I am left with

1. God choosing not to respond,
2. God not existing.

And since God doesn't appear to respond to anything in any way that can be verified, either by myself or by others, I have tentatively concluded for the moment that God is imaginary.

Further bolstering this conclusion are the "proofs" offered by well-meaning theists such as yourself, that shows God reacts exactly as other imaginary things do, What am I to make of this?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 01:55:28 PM
I'm not ignoring you Aaron, there were just more important replies to get to before I got to your harry potter example..which is completely ridiculous.  Lets get realistic..Jesus was the single most influential person who ever lived.  Same goes for the bible, most influential work of all time, by far.  The societies we live in, which were founded on Christian principles, and still largely is run by them, makes works like harry potter possible..Do you think anyone is going to be writing Harry Potter in Iran?  I mean if you want to talk about an evil religion, Islam is right there.  Yet atheists never talk about Islam, even though it is quantifiably evil..my guess is that they are just moral cowards who are afraid of getting shot.  Did you know America is the only country in the history of the world to be founded from religious persecution?  If Christianity is so terrible, explain America..and most of the rest of the western world..there isn't any comparison in what you're talking about..

Excellent points, servantofgod.  I couldn't have said it better myself..  On that note, I am out for now.. I love you all but I have to get to work..God bless
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Dante on May 19, 2011, 01:57:20 PM
Yet atheists never talk about Islam, even though it is quantifiably evil..my guess is that they are just moral cowards who are afraid of getting shot.

Islam is just as imaginary as your religion, and muslims are just as deluded as you are. Happy now?

The reason we dont talk about islam as much, is because they are not affecting our daily lives, we dont live in the middle east, and, unlike christians, very few muslims come to these boards to preach their version of shit. But rest assured, we have no problem calling all your gods imaginary. I promise.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on May 19, 2011, 02:01:40 PM
I'm not ignoring you Aaron, there were just more important replies to get to before I got to your harry potter example..which is completely ridiculous.  Lets get realistic..Jesus was the single most influential person who ever lived.  Same goes for the bible, most influential work of all time, by far.  The societies we live in, which were founded on Christian principles, and still largely is run by them, makes works like harry potter possible..Do you think anyone is going to be writing Harry Potter in Iran?  I mean if you want to talk about an evil religion, Islam is right there.  Yet atheists never talk about Islam, even though it is quantifiably evil..my guess is that they are just moral cowards who are afraid of getting shot.  Did you know America is the only country in the history of the world to be founded from religious persecution?  If Christianity is so terrible, explain America..and most of the rest of the western world..there isn't any comparison in what you're talking about..

Excellent points, servantofgod.  I couldn't have said it better myself..  On that note, I am out for now.. I love you all but I have to get to work..God bless

Nice.  Gotta love self-congratulation, dontcha?

(http://photos-ak.sparkpeople.com/8/8/l885165763.jpg)
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on May 19, 2011, 02:07:07 PM
atheists never talk about Islam, even though it is quantifiably evil..my guess is that they are just moral cowards who are afraid of getting shot.

Whoo-hoo!  Fatwa envy! (http://"http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fatwa_envy")
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 02:09:45 PM
I understand your skepticism because I used to be skeptical too.  I grew up agnostic and didn't believe in any religious claims.  I only changed my mind after God showed me He was real.  I didn't really take a leap of faith so much as it was the only logical conclusion.  In this way I have been blessed.  I am curious about your experience..because that is a type of revelation.  Check this out:  http://www.theologicalstudies.org/page/page/1572381.htm

Also, and this was my point, that God has revealed things to unbelievers but they just choose to ignore it.

Romans 1:20

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Now I presume your brain is reliable for other things, so you cant just rule out the trustworthyness of the experience..and since you have nothing to compare it to, how can you dismiss it out of hand..i mean i dont think that is sound thinking there..but the point im making is that you do have something to compare to..an actual experience which confirms what i am saying to some extent..but you choose to ignore that because you cant validate it..thats why i said its about you and not evidence..because i know God has shown people the spiritual reality



Untrue, you don't have to entirely believe God is real when you try to know Him..that's the whole point, you're trying to find out if He is real..but if the sincere desire is not in your heart to know Him, and you're treating it like some kind of thought experiment, where God is just some variable you are calculating, I would not call that sincere..

Let me try to address this.

Most atheists, including me, are skeptics.  We tend not to believe things unless and until given sufficient reason to think that it's true.  What we want or don't want to be true doesn't enter into it.  If someone says that Bigfoot exists, we'll decide for ourselves whether it's correct based on whatever evidence is offered by the one proclaiming belief in Bigfoot.  If such evidence is not provided, we will not accept the existence of Bigfoot.

We take this approach with everything, including claims of deities.  To us, having a "sincere desire in our heart" to think that something is true is irrelevant and, in fact, the scientific method is specifically designed, in part, to eliminate that kind of bias on the part of any individual investigating any particular matter.

I once knew a woman who was absolutely convinced that Yahweh existed -- she said there was simply no more room for doubt about his existence than there was for her own.  She said she had this conviction because she "felt a connection to him so strongly" that it simply could not possibly be false.  That may be fine for convincing her, but it won't work with a skeptic.  Most skeptics would probably just dismiss the claim out of hand; if feeling a bit more patient or indulgent, a skeptic might say, "OK, so you say you have some new sense perception that allows you to connect with the supernatural?  Fine, let's get you into the lab so we can test it."

The thing is, personal revelation (of the type that is not objectively verifiable) is simply not reliable as a source of knowledge for anything.  The mind is not nearly so reliable as some might think.  For example:  I have a memory -- a highly-detailed one, I might add -- of a scene from the original "Star Trek" series in which the Enterprise is orbiting a planet, then it encounters a storm that knocks it out of orbit.  After struggling for some moments, the crew manages to get the ship out of the storm, and Kirk asks for a damage report.  Spock reports that the Enterprise has lost one of its engine nacelles.  The camera then cuts to an external of the ship, showing that the starboard nacelle is missing.

Now, any Trek fan can tell you that no such scene ever took place in any episode of Classic Trek -- and yet there it is in my memory.  How did it get there?  I have no idea -- but it certainly wasn't from watching TV.  If my mind can screw up a memory of Classic Trek, there's no reason to believe that it wouldn't screw up a vision of the supernatural -- which I've also had, by the way, but I think I've made my point.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Jezebel on May 19, 2011, 02:11:48 PM
I think that servantofgod may have a point, because I think the fallacy here is begging the question, isn't it? It would appear that if one does not believe in God, one cannot pray sincerely to God, because you can't pray sincerely to something that you don't believe in. If I am incorrect, please let me know.



Thank you.  Someones brain in here is actually working..that's good to know.  I don't agree with the rest of it but that was exactly my point.



So we can only pray sincerely if we already believe. But when we say we don't believe, theists tell us to pray sincerely. But we can only pray sincerely if we already believe. So since we don't believe, our prayers are automatically insincere, which means that they won't be answered. But if we're praying to be answered so we CAN believe, it won't get answered because we don't believe...

Why exactly do you people tell us to pray, then? If I can only pray sincerely if I already believe, what is the point of telling atheists to pray? Apparently, since we don't believe, our prayers are not "valid" or "heard" or something... 

This is a logical loop and I don't understand your hearty endorsement of it. Seems obviously self-defeating to me to say "If you want god to reveal himself so you will believe then you have to pray sincerely but you're inherently unable to pray sincerely because you don't believe so god won't reveal himself so you won't believe but it'll be your fault you don't believe because when you prayed you didn't already believe."

I mean, seriously-- you can't see how illogical that is?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: servantofgod on May 19, 2011, 02:12:36 PM
Untrue, He knows your heart, and whether your heart is in it or not..okay, lets say you want to write Haikus..do you just sit down and start writing them and expect results?  or do you first research and compare and then try to write them?  its much the same..you have to show a little effort here.

now im gone..see you :) God bless.
Untrue, you don't have to entirely believe God is real when you try to know Him..that's the whole point, you're trying to find out if He is real..but if the sincere desire is not in your heart to know Him, and you're treating it like some kind of thought experiment, where God is just some variable you are calculating, I would not call that sincere..


It is a thought experiment. I open my self to the question "Is anyone there? Does God exist?" And if god exists as an omnipotent, all-knowing being, then He knows that I am asking Him the best way that I can, but doesn't respond in any way that is meaningful or understandable to me. Either God is not powerful enough to make himself known to me, doesn't know that I'm trying to reach Him, or doesn't care to respond. Since by all accounts God is omnipotent and all-knowing, then I am left with

1. God choosing not to respond,
2. God not existing.

And since God doesn't appear to respond to anything in any way that can be verified, either by myself or by others, I have tentatively concluded for the moment that God is imaginary.

Further bolstering this conclusion are the "proofs" offered by well-meaning theists such as yourself, that shows God reacts exactly as other imaginary things do, What am I to make of this?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Bagheera on May 19, 2011, 02:12:48 PM
I'm not ignoring you Aaron, there were just more important replies to get to before I got to your harry potter example..which is completely ridiculous.  Lets get realistic..Jesus was the single most influential person who ever lived.  Same goes for the bible, most influential work of all time, by far.  The societies we live in, which were founded on Christian principles, and still largely is run by them, makes works like harry potter possible..Do you think anyone is going to be writing Harry Potter in Iran?  I mean if you want to talk about an evil religion, Islam is right there.  Yet atheists never talk about Islam, even though it is quantifiably evil..my guess is that they are just moral cowards who are afraid of getting shot.  Did you know America is the only country in the history of the world to be founded from religious persecution?  If Christianity is so terrible, explain America..and most of the rest of the western world..there isn't any comparison in what you're talking about..

To be frank, if any religion is likely to get me to convert, it would be Islam.

1. They actually seem to follow their holy book, no matter how cruel and ridiculous it seems to the outside world. Stoning, misogynistic treatment of women, they seem to stick to their holy book in the way that Christians would like to but don't because we live in America.

2. Moral cowardice? I personally leave islam alone because, unlike Christians, they seem to adhere far more closely to their scriptures regarding the treatment of unbelievers. I think America is better than Islamist countries because America ostensibly forbids the establishment of an official state religion and has an established method for challenging authority. However, America is also flawed in that in some states atheists cannot hold public office or testify in court, and many laws have little rational basis beyond "we believe the Bible says so".

3. America is the only country in the world to be founded from religious persecution? I thought it was founded on the notion of Manifest Destiny and conquest of the indigenous people. I suppose the treatment of the aboriginal people and the continued institution of slavery was all part of God's plan too. Keep in mind, there were arguments for and against slavery on religious grounds as well as secular, but nowhere in the Bible is slavery condemned. There's not even a commandment against it. . . but there are conditions on how to treat your slaves. I suppose that makes atheists evil; we don't think biblical statements about how to treat slaves should mean you're allowed to keep them.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Jezebel on May 19, 2011, 02:17:58 PM
Well, see, Servant of God... that's where I always hit the brick wall with you guys. You just keep saying I didn't try hard enough or pray sincerely enough or wasn't honest enough or open-minded enough, etc. etc. ad nauseum. You're making a HUGE assumption and you don't know anything about me. You don't know anything about my past, or what kind of person I am. You're basically just sitting there calling me a liar.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Historicity on May 19, 2011, 02:18:23 PM
No, I'm saying it's something you can verify.
Having faith in God isn't dependent on feelings, because feelings come and go.  If God reveals himself to you, believe me..you won't be scratching your head wondering if it was him or not.

How?
Yup, Bagheera.  Here are 2 parallels.

I live in Florida not too far from the Atlantic.  So every now and then I am at the boardwalk for no particular reason than to look at the sea for a few minutes.  I scan the horizon for boats, see if a surfer can catch a wave, see if there is a dorsal fin and is it a shark or a dolphin.  (They move differently.)  But I've done it many times and it is comforting in its sameness.

One day this year I walked a kilometer along the beach and back.  A wind and rain storm started but no lightning.  The wind got up to 50 mph judging from how the sand stung (and comparing it to motorcyle experience) but it was at my back.  The waves looked like smoke was rising from them from the way the wind picked up the foam at the crests.  Then about a mile or a kilo out I saw an area of the sea that looked like smoke was rising.  I watched as I walked.  It was a limited area.  I knew it must be wind picking up water, not smoke.  But a very intense wind in a very limited area.  Deduction!  It subsided after a minute and a minute or 2 later tried to rise again.

Question:  Did I really see what I thought I saw?

A woman in a condo rushed out on her balcony and yelled, "Get inside!  There's a tornado!"

"Yes, I know," I called back, "I saw it forming out there."  And I walked back to the beach stairs that led to the street and to where my car was parked.

One day last year the horizon was jagged.  At least it seemed that way for a moment.  I stared.  It still seemed to be there.  Being a skeptic I doubted my senses.  What was wrong with my eyes?  I looked around at other objects and nothing was wrong.

"Is there an island there offshore?" asked a man.  I told him I was a local and he confirmed he was from out-of-state.  "It looks like pine trees", he added and I told it did to me, too.   We both wondered and I proposed hypotheses and shot them down, such as wondering about very high waves that were miles away but how would it be that the ocean was flat near the shore?

Someone passed who had a camera.  I borrowed it and it had a 3X zoom capability.  I looked at the screen at the back and, yes, the phenomenon was there of jagged horizon.  I could draw no conclusion so I left.

Later that year I was looking at the work of an artist at a street fair.  He had a number of ocean scenes.  One showed that jagged horizon.  I asked him and no, it was not a painterly stylization.  I was amazed.  I've lived here for decades and never heard of it before and only saw it once.  I still don't understand it.

Having a skeptical worldview means I think there is an natural explanation but I don't know what it is.  I may never find out.

So, if I were to pray, or enhance it thru socialization or reading old books of sacred mysteries or starve myself to where low blood sugar makes me dizzy, and then a phenomenon appears to me, I'd want to have it confirmed by another observer who was not impaired (the lady in the condo, the visitor on the beach) and cross checked by instrumentation (the TV station's doppler radar, the camera's magnification) otherwise I'd come to my senses and know I had merely had the entertainment of tripping out.

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Historicity on May 19, 2011, 02:23:03 PM
Fasting is good in any context..it's healthy.

No, it's not.  It makes it unsafe to drive.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Dante on May 19, 2011, 02:23:40 PM
I understand your skepticism because I used to be skeptical too.  I grew up agnostic and didn't believe in any religious claims.  I only changed my mind after God showed me He was real.  I didn't really take a leap of faith so much as it was the only logical conclusion.  In this way I have been blessed.  I am curious about your experience..because that is a type of revelation.  Check this out:  http://www.theologicalstudies.org/page/page/1572381.htm

Hilarious, SoG! Thanks for the laughs! "Audible voice" Bwahahaha!

Also, and this was my point, that God has revealed things to unbelievers but they just choose to ignore it.

Then your god pretty much sucks at revealing things, huh? I mean, if he revealed hisself in an unambiguous way, we wouldn't be able to ignore it, would we?

And I wonder; why is it that you ask us to pray for revelation, yet you claim you arrived at it logically? Why don't you convince us with your logic, the same way you were "converted"?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on May 19, 2011, 02:25:31 PM
I'm not ignoring you Aaron, there were just more important replies to get to before I got to your harry potter example..which is completely ridiculous.

It's only ridiculous because you don't believe.


Quote
Lets get realistic..Jesus was the single most influential person who ever lived. 


Even if he was, that would not necessarily make him the son of god.


Quote
Same goes for the bible, most influential work of all time, by far. 


Even if it was, it does not necessarily means it is the word of god.


Quote
The societies we live in, which were founded on Christian principles, and still largely is run by them,


Even if it was, it does not necessarily means that christianity is the OneTrueFaith.  If America was founded on Muslim principles, would that make the Islamic faith true?



Quote
makes works like harry potter possible..Do you think anyone is going to be writing Harry Potter in Iran?


Again, even if this is the case, it does not necessarily means that christianity is the OneTrueFaith.



Quote
I mean if you want to talk about an evil religion, Islam is right there.  Yet atheists never talk about Islam,

Untrue.  Even if it was, it does not necessarily means that christianity is the OneTrueFaith.


Quote
even though it is quantifiably evil..my guess is that they are just moral cowards who are afraid of getting shot.


Untrue.  Even if it was, it does not necessarily means that christianity is the OneTrueFaith.


Quote
Did you know America is the only country in the history of the world to be founded from religious persecution?


Even if it was, it does not necessarily means that christianity is the OneTrueFaith.


Quote
If Christianity is so terrible, explain America..and most of the rest of the western world..there isn't any comparison in what you're talking about..

Even if it was, it does not necessarily means that christianity is the OneTrueFaith.


A total failure of an argument.  Nothing you said--even if they were true-- does anything to prove the existence of any gods.  At best, it demonstrate how much religion can influence people.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 19, 2011, 02:27:59 PM
I'm not ignoring you Aaron, there were just more important replies to get to before I got to your harry potter example..which is completely ridiculous.  Lets get realistic..Jesus was the single most influential person who ever lived. 


Begging the question, Appeal to Popularity


Same goes for the bible, most influential work of all time, by far.

Appeal to popularity


The societies we live in, which were founded on Christian principles, and still largely is run by them,
Ignoring the counterevidence(most modern Western democracies were founded on Enlightenment principles...repressive Monarchies are founded on Christian principles



 makes works like harry potter possible.


Non sequitur(how does Christian Prinicples make writing fiction possible?), Ignoring the Counterevidence(like the fact that many Christian wish to ban Harry Potter)


.Do you think anyone is going to be writing Harry Potter in Iran?
Ignoring the Counterevidence(1001 Ariabian Nights)


  I mean if you want to talk about an evil religion, Islam is right there.  Yet atheists never talk about Islam,
Ignoring the Counterevidence....this actual forum being an example. Pat Condell, to use a contraversial example.





 even though it is quantifiably evil..my guess is that they are just moral cowards who are afraid of getting shot.

Ad Hom, Poisoning the Well, appeal to personal credulity


 Did you know America is the only country in the history of the world to be founded from religious persecution?

Ignoring the counterevidence. The United StatesAmerica was neither founded solely on the principle of freedom from religious persectution, nor is it the only govenment that used that as part of its reasons for coming into being.

  If Christianity is so terrible, explain America..and most of the rest of the western world..there isn't any comparison in what you're talking about..
And once again you preach and ignore me.  Why are you ignoring my points?


Ignoring the counterevidence(I.e. all of history when Christianity was supreme)

Really do you even begin to consider how fallacy filled your statements are?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Asmoday on May 19, 2011, 03:17:21 PM
I understand your skepticism because I used to be skeptical too.  I grew up agnostic and didn't believe in any religious claims.  I only changed my mind after God showed me He was real.  I didn't really take a leap of faith so much as it was the only logical conclusion.  In this way I have been blessed.
Several points about this:

a) If you came to God as a logical conclusion and not through a leap of faith and you "grew up agnostic and didn't believe in any religious claims," then why is all you post here religious claims? If you were an agnostic (like many people here are), then instead of solely posting religious claims, why aren't you posting your logical argumentation that led you to become a believer in God?

If your words were true, then you'd already know that your religious claims don't work. Let us see the logic then, which convinced the former skeptical agnostic, not the religious claims that didn't work on you either.


b) You say here that you were skeptical and "agnostic and did not believe any religious claim." The next sentence is the important one: "I only changed my mind after God showed me He was real." Emphasis added by me.

According to this, you got to know God despite being completely skeptical and staying completely unfazed by any religious claims.
Yet in this thread you say that it is only possible to get to know God if you let go of the skepticism and you have to acknowledge Gods existence first and then beg him to make himself known to you (which already requires you to believe in God to a large degree, ruling out agnosticism and atheism).

The "mission" you gave to Anfauglir on how to get to know God is nothing like your description of how God revealed himself to the former skeptical agnostic SoG.
How come?

If your words on how you found God (or more accurately on how God showed himself to you) are true, then you yourself have not been "sincere" in your search for God (according to your own definition of sincerity in this thread) yet God revealed himself to you anyway.
In Anfauglir's case however you say that it's impossible to find God without making the leap of faith first, since staying a skeptic (as he is now) till after God has revealed himself to him (like how you did) would mean he's insincere in his quest to find God (which in turn would mean God would not show himself in the first place).

Which is it?

It seems Anfauglir has to run the gauntlet and if he doesn't find God in the end, it means it's his own fault, yet in your case you did not lift a finger yet God reached down from the heavens, bopped you on the tip of your nose and said "HI there! Just wanted to let you know, I'm real" ?

My, what a special (http://smileys.emoticonsonly.com/emoticons/s/snowflake-295.gif) you are.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: nogodsforme on May 19, 2011, 04:42:32 PM
I don't even know where to start with Soggy Bottom.  &)

America is wonderful because it is so saturated with the power of The One True Almighty Gawd! :angel: And don't confuse SOG with the facts, like the US is a secular nation, not founded in the name of any religion and explicitly does not allow any religion to be officially sanctioned by the government.

The people who fled religious persecution in 15th century Europe (in order to religiously persecute the native people here) did not practice the kind of namby-pamby non-denominational do-it-yourself Christianity popular in the US today--they were strict no drinking, no dancing, no sex, no color, no spices, no Christmas, no Easter, anti-pagan, anti-Catholic, witch drowning, no work on the Sabbath, slap-you-in-the-stocks Puritan folks who were, luckily, NOT the people who wrote the founding documents like the Constitution.

How can he assume that an atheist was never religious? WTF does he think turned so many of us into atheists? RELIGION! Some of us grew up in very religious contexts and didn't even know there was such a thing as atheism until we started thinking about, and then questioning our own beliefs.

I was so saturated with religion as a JW kid that the idea of not believing in god was literally unthinkable. Everyone had to have a religion, even if it was the wrong one. When a friend told me that she thought all Jews were atheists, I freaked out and defended the Jews, because I thought that was the worst thing you could say about anyone.

It took years of questioning, of not-quite-believing, and studying all kinds of religious ideas before I concluded that I really did not believe in anything supernatural. I did not believe in ghosts, ESP, psychics, Zeus, wizards, witches, Yemaya or Jehovah. I was officially an atheist. After many happily blasphemous years, it is still hard to tell people that I am a heathen unbeliever, because I am a black female person surrounded by hard-core religious believers. Black females are more religious, and more literal believers than any other demographic in the US.

If I could make myself believe, I would, because life would be soooo much easier. As it is, I keep my mouth shut about my atheism around most people--family members, my students, my co-workers, neighbors, the lady who does my daughter's hair with the bible programs playing on the TV 24-7[1], people in parking lots with agressive religious slogans on their cars.[2]  The confusion, hurt, anger, hassling and hatred I would get are just not worth it.

This site is one of the few places where I can talk, complain, vent, kvetch, joke and rant about being an atheist. Because there are way more people out there like SOG than there are people like us. :P
 1. When my daughter gets her hair braided, it takes several hours. Endless hours of slickly packaged lies, illogic, name-calling, insults, fantasy, and sales pitches for religious merchandise: prayer candles, videos, CD's, books, donations and pay-to-pray requests. I have to literally grind my teeth and put on headphones. Then afterwards I have to deprogram my daughter and answer all her questions.
 2. "Christian, Conservative, American. In that order."
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Death over Life on May 19, 2011, 05:35:29 PM

You may of fooled them, but you haven't fooled me.  I know you still believe in God.

Works for me. After all, you won’t prove anything you are saying, but as Pat Condell said, who needs proof when you got faith!

Why do you turn around the bush when all we are trying to tell you is to prove it?

That is what pisses everybody off man. You say all this stuff, all atheism is, is asking the theist to prove the claim, and then you get hissy at us for asking for proof when you yourself have said you have it!

Fine, believe I believe in God, that doesn’t change my agnostic atheism. I believe in the possibility, as do many here. All we need is evidence. You can believe you are a chicken all you want, but until you start clucking and start giving us eggs, you are still a human being. The exact same thing about God.

And to end it all:

Ave Sathanas!

I'm not ignoring you Aaron, there were just more important replies to get to before I got to your harry potter example..which is completely ridiculous.  Lets get realistic..Jesus was the single most influential person who ever lived.  Same goes for the bible, most influential work of all time, by far.  The societies we live in, which were founded on Christian principles, and still largely is run by them, makes works like harry potter possible..Do you think anyone is going to be writing Harry Potter in Iran?  I mean if you want to talk about an evil religion, Islam is right there.  Yet atheists never talk about Islam, even though it is quantifiably evil..my guess is that they are just moral cowards who are afraid of getting shot.  Did you know America is the only country in the history of the world to be founded from religious persecution?  If Christianity is so terrible, explain America..and most of the rest of the western world..there isn't any comparison in what you're talking about..

Excellent points, servantofgod.  I couldn't have said it better myself..  On that note, I am out for now.. I love you all but I have to get to work..God bless

Hmm, multiple personality disorder much? Or are you really Jesus Christ?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: jetson on May 19, 2011, 07:36:32 PM
I can't believe I just read all of this shit...Im having flashbacks of QuestionMark!  SoG - you;re not QuestionMark, are you?

Damn, what a waste of a thread.  The title is "God does heal amputees", and there is literally nothing in here that shows how God heals amputees. 

SoG - what are you doing here anyway?  Do you have a goal, or a purpose?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Historicity on May 19, 2011, 07:43:24 PM
The societies we live in, which were founded on Christian principles,
Nope, Greek principles.  Read The Iliad.  Achilles is offended by the actions of Menelaus so he calls for a council meeting.  The nobles debate.  Menelaus cannot just stand on authority but has to defend himself.

Later on Ulysses addresses a section of the army.  For the first time The Common Man speaks up.  An ugly soldier named Thrasymachus accuses the nobility of reaping most of the rewards while the GIs do most of the dying.  Ulysses orders a couple thugs to beat him out of the meeting.

A few generations later the Athenians extend rights to all free men.

Correct me if I missed something but the Bible has no debates, no voting, never praises the will of the people.  As for human rights, a fratricidal civil war exterminated almost all of the Tribe of Benjamin and all the women and children.  The tribes that did it suffered terrible remorse.  They decided to let the few survivors of Benjamin off the hook and let them establish new families.  But they had taken a "holy" oath not to let their daughters marry any Benjaminite.  What to do?  Well, there was the town of Jabeshgilead, conscientious objectors who had opted out of the horrible war.  They were right.  What to do about that?

I don't want to exaggerate in a paraphrase and the Bible itself puts it best:
Quote
[size=10 pt]21:10 And the congregation sent thither twelve thousand men of the valiantest, and commanded them, saying, Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead with the edge of the sword, with the women and the children.  And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man. And they found among the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan.

And the whole congregation sent some to speak to the children of Benjamin that were in the rock Rimmon, and to call peaceably unto them. And Benjamin came again at that time; and they gave them wives
which they had saved alive of the women of Jabeshgilead: ...

I just don't know any time the United States has done that.  And the Bible does not so much as hint that this might not be a good thing.

Quote
and still largely is run by them, makes works like harry potter possible..Do you think anyone is going to be writing Harry Potter in Iran? 
The Arabian Nights.  You've heard of it.
Quote
Yet atheists never talk about Islam,
That's a lie.  There's a Search option in this forum.  Use it.  Find my posts about Mohammed's pedophilia.

Quote
Did you know America is the only country in the history of the world to be founded from religious persecution?
I guess you never heard that Holland won its freedom from Catholic Spain.  Look up The Spanish Fury.

Or states like Virginia and the southern states or Florida which were not founded for religious causes.

Or the United States.  Read the laundry list King George's offenses in the Declaration of Independence.  There is no charge the king intended to impose a state church.

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Emily on May 19, 2011, 07:53:31 PM
Quote
Yet atheists never talk about Islam,

Well, you know what. If you were a muslim talking this kind of shit we'd be posting similar replies in that thread.

We aren't hating on your religion. We are hating on the bullshit your religion teaches, and sadly enough for you, you are parroting what your religion teaches without thinking about how it's true bullshit.

If you were a muslim , preaching bullshit, you'd be in the same boat as you are now as a christian.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Bagheera on May 19, 2011, 08:13:37 PM
Quote
Yet atheists never talk about Islam,

If you were a muslim , preaching bullshit, you'd be in the same boat as you are now as a christian.

Personally, I'd be posting less, because I have read the bible a couple of times, but have never read the koran. however, in the old forum I recall a poster who was serving the infallibility of the koran. He didn't get any traction either, IIRC. :)
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Nick on May 19, 2011, 08:15:45 PM
Bagheera is correct...peace be upon him. ;)
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: mram on May 19, 2011, 08:36:45 PM
SOG.. I believe you're just a kid intent to stir up some shit here so you and your buddies can have a good laugh.. You claim gawd revealed himself to you so what does god look like? Is he an old white guy with a long white beard who looks a bit like Santa Clause or Father Christmas? Maybe he's a black dude who looks a bit like Chad Ochocinco of the Cincinnati Bengals NFL football team.... On the other hand he might be Jewish and looks a bit like Shecky Green..
You further say Jesus entered your heart, but we know the heart is nothing more than a muscular pump to pump blood through our bodies. The heart is not a brain and knowledge is not in any way, shape or form stored in the human heart so just how did jesus get in there? Did you have open heart surgery and have jesus implanted? I'm not sure he would fit in a human heart. The brain simply sends impulses through nerve endings and chemical processes to speed up or slow down the heart..
That funny feeling you feel is just your brain playing the emotional game with your brain and its susceptibility to delusions. The delusion is that some magical dead guy from 2000 years ago magically broke through your skin and through your rib cage and then further broke through the muscle walls of your heart to fill you with "the spirit" your blood stream carried to your brain where the delusion is completed..
No..what happened is someone told you that some dead guy could manage somehow to do this in the first place. Nothing was revealed to you or you would have conclusive PROOF that would undoubtedly convince every man, woman and child whoever reads your nonsense that god is indeed real because he would reveal himself to all of us and not just some kid who makes wild claims to atheists on a message board.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Bagheera on May 19, 2011, 11:11:51 PM
Bagheera is correct...peace be upon him. ;)


Thanks. Do I get bonus points for skipping the  joke about Christians not healing the amputees that Islamists create?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on May 20, 2011, 12:34:04 AM
I'm not ignoring you Aaron, there were just more important replies to get to before I got to your harry potter example..which is completely ridiculous.  Lets get realistic.

I didn't have time to fully respond before, since I had to go to work.

Serventofgod, you have reacted just as I expected you would.  You dismissed my preaching and woo talk about Harry Potter as utter nonsense.  I'm willing to bet that there's no real reason for this other than that you think Harry Potter is a bunch of made up, silly stories.  Suppose I were to say "you're just angry at Harry Potter" or "you KNOW Harry Potter is real.  You KNOW in your heart, Harry Potter is true" or "open your heart and mind to Harry Potter".  You would just dismiss all those claims as nonsense.  Why?  Because you don't believe a word of it!  You are not angry at a fictional character, there is no void in your heart that a fictional character can fill, etc. etc...  Likewise, I'm willing to bet that nothing would convience you that this stuff is for real unless you had rock-soild evidence.  If someone took out a wand, said "wingardium leviosa" and made something float(and you're able to verify that no trickery was involved), one would have to start thinking that perhaps this wizarding stuff is for real.  But until then, you have no reason to believe.  Someone's preaching notwithstanding.


Do you see what I'm getting at?  You are doing the very same thing with christianity as my Harry Potter example.  We dismiss your preaching because we don't believe a word of it.  Not because we are "angry at god" or "we know that god exists."  There is no void in our hearts.  We are not ignoring god.  We just...don't think he exists.  We just don't think any of this bible stuff is for real.  God is a fictional character, Jesus is a fictional character, the bible is a collection of made up stories, etc etc.  You need to show how this is otherwise.  You need to show that god exists.  You need to show that the bible is a histortical document.  So far, all you've given us is a god that makes you stand on your head, jump through hoops, and bark like a seal before he might show up.  After which, you're probably say that you did see god, just to save yourself the embarrassment of doing a bunch of stupid stuff.


Somehow, I doubt you'll understand what I'm trying to get at here, but it had to be said.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Astreja on May 20, 2011, 12:38:58 AM
it never ceases to amaze me how often i hear his words from unbelievers lips.
Those are My words, not the words of a fictional bad guy, until you prove empirically that the bad guy actually exists and that it actually influenced Me in some way.  You have a long way to go to prove that.

Quote
If I'm wrong then what difference does it make..some random accident or illness will take me out and within a short period of time, no one will even remember that I existed...
There's your problem right there, SoG -- You appear to be hung up on your own sense of self, obsessed with the idea that "you" might cease to exist and be forgotten.

One's sense of self, or the duration of one's life, has nothing whatsoever to do with purpose.  In My opinion, one creates one's own meaning of life by immersing oneself in the passing moments and paying rapt attention to life itself.

Quote
Totally deceived by the devil (because you love evil more than you do good).
This is slander against My character.  Provide actual evidence that you can read My thoughts and determine what I *do* love, or withdraw the accusation.

Quote
Living a futile existence, having utterly failed at the one thing you were supposed to do.
Absolutely false.  Only I have the right to determine what I am "supposed to do," and I have already succeeded beyond My wildest dreams.

Quote
You look at this cesspool called civilization and you actually feel admiration.  For matter, you would sell your very soul.  I can't think of anything more heartbreaking than that.

One:  Civilization is not a 'cesspool.'
Two:  I do not think that souls actually exist, so there is nothing to sell.

Quote
You are so blind you can't even see what's in front of your face.
More slander.

Quote
Are you Pagan?
I used to consider Myself heiðinn, and self-described as an agnostic polytheist.  I am now an agnostic atheist because I would not testify in a court of law that any gods exist.  In fact, I'm agnostic regarding My own divinity.  8)

Quote
God is calling all of His children to repentence.  It is to the Lord Jesus Christ that every knee will bow, and every haughty voice will be silenced.
No one is calling; we are not the children of your imaginary friend; not a single knee will bow after physical death, and death shall silence all voices, haughty or not.

Quote
Like it or not, you have a fallen nature, and your only escape clause is in Christ.  Like it or not, you won't get another chance.
I reject that chance, now and forever.

Quote
Gods judgement is just...
SoG, you just keep telling yourself that, m'kay?  It's obvious to Me that believers need the myth of a just god to reconcile the "loving" part with the "tortures sentient beings for eternity" part.  Otherwise, they might... Dare I say? ...lose their faith and have to do without.

Quote
You act like God wants to send people to hell.  He doesn't want to punish anyone, but He isn't going to tolerate sin.
Then perhaps your imaginary friend should make up its mind as to what it wants.

Quote
Please, I urge you, ask God to forgive your sins and be your Lord and Savior..tomorrow might be too late.
Stuff your immoral, unconscionable mythology up your rectum.  I do not consent to participate in human sacrifice; I do not bow to torturer-gods; I see absolutely no difference between the alleged works of Biblegod's sock puppet Holy Spook and his other sock puppet Satan.  Both meddle in human free will to superimpose the will of Biblegod, who therefore would bear 100% responsibility for all good, all evil, all joy and all suffering in its demesne.

SoG, you cannot and shall not turn Me to your cult.

You, however, are doomed to lose everything you believed at the moment of physical death.  There is no evidence for heaven, no evidence for hell, and no evidence for eternal life.  You and I are slated for the exact same destiny -- Insentience and loss of self -- and there isn't a single prayer in the universe that can save you.

Please live your life as if it's the only one you'll ever have... Because it probably *is* the only one you'll ever have.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Anfauglir on May 20, 2011, 02:49:21 AM
Anfauglir, I said the prayer needs to be sincere..notice you're forgetting that part. 

Hardly.  Do you not read what I post?  For your benefit then, again....check the bold.

I have not held back the truth, which is this:
You can know Christ, personally, today, by calling upon His in prayer and asking Him to reveal Himself to you.

I did.  I did EXACTLY what you said.  I asked, honestly and sincerely, to be shown.  Now, of course, you wish to move the goalposts yet again, and try to claim I was not being "sincere" enough.  So I'll repeat for your benefit what I have said before: if Christ really exists, I WANT TO KNOW IT.  It would be the biggest shake-up in my life, the most important piece of information I could come to know.  So please don't try to tell me I wasn't asking sincerely, because I was.

I would say that your prayer was rejected for the dog and pony show that it was.

And, see, this is the bit I don't get.  Let me quote, once again, your words, from just a few days ago.

He has set it on me to tell you that He will prove it to you.  Pray like this:  Jesus, if you're real, I want to know about it.  I want to know you.  Please let me know you're real.  God bless.

So call out to Him and He will come.  I don't know anything about before, I just know now is the time.  God bless. 

Jesus is calling to you now.  He is calling you to come to Him and know Him personally.  .....try one more time.  You will not be disappointed.

Jesus put it on my heart to come here and tell you, and anyone else here who will listen, that if you ask to know Him sincerely, if you pray to Him and ask if He is real, He will reveal Himself to you.  I know He is serious about it so please, try Him once more.  If you seek you will find.  

...compared to your words now - after everything you said before proved to be untrue.

Begin a fast, let it last for at least a week.  Don't tell anyone that you're fasting.  Don't give any indication to anyone that you are discomforted in any way.  Let it be between you and God.  Read these books, one a day:  Matthew Mark Luke John Acts Romans and Revelation.  Squeeze in 1st Corinthians in there somewhere.  Research the things you don't understand.  Ask questions.  Try christianforums.com.  Find a non-denominational church and attend all of their services for that week.  Seek out the pastor and tell him/her that you're there to find God, that you don't know him.    Engage him, but don't turn it into a platform for your atheism.  Try to be open to what he says.  Pray, often and fervently.  Ask for forgiveness for your sins.  Pour them right out of you and give them up to God.  Pray to know Him.  Realize that you are saved by grace, that you could never earn your salvation, that as it is you don't deserve it.  Humble yourself.   

Do you honestly not see the huge, gaping difference between your your oft-repeated initial promise, and what you are now offering? 

But you know what?  I'll do it.  Like I said before, I am sincere.  If your god truly exists, I want to know it.

Here's the thing though.  When I asked first what to do, you gave me the simple instructions of "ask and you will know him today".  You promised that this time would be different.  You promised that this time Christ would come.  TODAY.  If I just asked him.

I did EXACTLY what you said.  But nothing happened.

So before I embark on the week-long program you have outlined - which, I swear, I will be perfectly ready to do - there are a couple issues you need to address.

Firstly, you need to explain quite clearly why your original promise was unfulfilled.  Address your ORIGINAL words - quoted several times for your convenience - and explain why they didn't work.  And note that that is WITHOUT adding things you have thought of after the fact.  See, I did EXACTLY what you said, and nothing happened.  So before I try YOUR next little dog and pony show, I need to know whether I can trust your word.

And lastly, I want you to state, quite clearly, that those instructions you have given me will work.  No question.  With no option that - when I have followed them for a week of my life - you will be able to turn round and add yet another exclusion to explain the lack of action, should your promises again prove to be lies.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Anfauglir on May 20, 2011, 07:08:42 AM
Ben re-reading your conditions (Christ's conditions?) and I have a couple questions.  Obviously I don't want to miss out a vital step, or do something slithgly wrong, if that will mean Christ not answering me as a result.  So I want to be clear before I start.

Begin a fast, let it last for at least a week.  Don't tell anyone that you're fasting.  Don't give any indication to anyone that you are discomforted in any way.  Let it be between you and God. 

1) What exactly do you mean by "fast"?  Does it mean that I can eat and drink absolutely nothing?  Can drink but not eat?  If I can eat, what CAN I eat, and still be counted as "fasting"?

2) Don't tell anyone....this will prove troublesome.  Not because I will be going round shouting "I'm fasting", but because (a) I eat breakfast and supper with my wife, and (b) I eat lunch with my colleagues.  They will be sure to comment on my change in eating patterns, and will probably ask me why.  What should I reply if they do?  If I tell them I am fasting when they ask (and if I tell them why, if they then ask that) will Christ then reject my pleas?  Or should I lie to them - tell them I am dieting, or something?  Something in me says its not a very good path to god if it begins with lies: isn't lying a sin?  So what should I say if asked?

3) As has been remarked, fasting can be dangerous - can cause fainting spells, for example.  Should I carry a "medic alert" bracelet that says "I've fainted because I'm fasting", just so's people know if I collapse?  Suppose I do collapse and get taken to the ER - the doctors will be trying to find out why I collapsed - can I tell them?  What if I don't, and they keep me in - that'll stop me from attending church.  Will that keep Christ from answering my prayers?

4) You also said "don't give any indication you are discomfited" - obviously if I faint, that would be a BIG indication.  Would fainting itself, even if I breathe not a word as to why, cause Christ to reject me?  What about other involuntary signs - a rumbling stomach, for example?  Dizziness? 

As you can see, there are a whole host of issues that need to be cleared up before I will begin the process you have outlined - and I've only so far concentrated on the "fasting" issues, the very first part of your instructions.  Once we've cleared up "fasting", I'll move on to the other clarifications that are needed.  But I do have one more question at this point, if you'll indulge me.

Given what you said on the 11th, that "Jesus is calling to (me) now"....He is serious about it so please, try Him once more", that he is a god who wants a relationship with me, wants me to be saved.....can you explain why he would put so many mechanical barriers in the way?  Christ KNOWS what is in my heart - he KNOWS that I am sincere in wanting to know if he exists.....so why does he make it so difficult?

He wants to know me, I want to know him. 

Why didn't he answer?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: velkyn on May 20, 2011, 09:54:20 AM
Find a non-denominational church and attend all of their services for that week.  Seek out the pastor and tell him/her that you're there to find God, that you don't know him.    Engage him, but don't turn it into a platform for your atheism.  Try to be open to what he says.

Pray, often and fervently.  Ask for forgiveness for your sins.  Pour them right out of you and give them up to God.  Pray to know Him.  Realize that you are saved by grace, that you could never earn your salvation, that as it is you don't deserve it.  Humble yourself.   

Did that. So again, your claims fail miserably.  Or do you want to claim I'm lying?  If so, and you are wrong incidentally, you've just made false witness against someone.  That's a sin and an intentional sin at that.  How often do you think any god would keep forgiving someone who has no intention of stopping sinning?  As you say, your god supposedly knows you.

Love the additional qualifications.  I would ask, how are those boils doing since you see fit to add to God's word?  And I'll ask you directly, is this what you did to find god? Remember, God's watching how you answer. If not, then your magic spell is nonsense or your god is capricious. 
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: screwtape on May 20, 2011, 11:26:34 AM
Do your research.  The evil that the passage is referring to is not a moral evil, but rather calamities in the world, such as natural disasters. 

There was once a brilliant theologian who became an atheist.  He joined this forum and named himself DTE.  He was a badass mofo.  He also dealt with that argument in this post (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?topic=4871.msg79324#msg79324).  It's like he was looking forward through time, read your post and then drank your milkshake from the past.  Your milkshake has been drunk for 4 years and 3 1/2 months and you did not even realize it.  Don't screw with DTE.



Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: screwtape on May 20, 2011, 11:38:31 AM
Yet atheists never talk about Islam, even though it is quantifiably evil..

Quantifiable?  Okay.  How much evil is it and what are the units?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 20, 2011, 11:59:50 AM
I think that servantofgod may have a point, because I think the fallacy here is begging the question, isn't it? It would appear that if one does not believe in God, one cannot pray sincerely to God, because you can't pray sincerely to something that you don't believe in. If I am incorrect, please let me know.

What we get from many TrueBelievers(tm) is that we can only get the TV to turn on if we believe that it works. . . and that if it doesn't turn on, we are not believing sincerely enough.

Thank you.  Someones brain in here is actually working..that's good to know.  I don't agree with the rest of it but that was exactly my point.

And TV example is a poor example..a tv is something you can see..God, you can't see..until the encore

Ultimately that comes to a "does it exist or not" question. You have no evidence, so your argument is predicating on an appeal to ignorance in this case/
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: screwtape on May 20, 2011, 12:19:02 PM
He wants to know me, I want to know him. 

Why didn't he answer?

I have to say, SoG has really annoyed me with this whole conversion scheme.  He says you just have to ask god sincerely. Then if it doesn't work, he says, obviously, you weren't sincere.  So no matter how hard you try, no matter what you do, as long as you fail to receive messages from sweet baby jesus, it is your fault.  He has completely dismissed the possibility that his method could somehow not work, that he could somehow be wrong.  God didn't talk to you?  Your fault, motherfucker. God talks to me all the time. 

That is the problem with talking about unverifiable things like gods and other people's intentions.  You can say whatever shit you want, makeup whatever preposterous rules you want, and no one can show you are wrong.  That way, there is no down side.  You never have to apologize or say "I was wrong".  You get to blame the other guy forever. Talk about the ultimate abdication of responsibility.

You could get 10,000 people following SoG's rules and if all of them came up empty, well, fuck them, they did it wrong.  They were not earnest.  But SoG, well, he was blessed.  Lucky him.  My question is, why was so SoG blessed?  What was so special about him?  Why won't god help any of the rest of us avoid infinite torture?


If it does not work, you must be doing it wrong, because I cannot be wrong.  He sounds like my IT department.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 20, 2011, 12:35:47 PM
He wants to know me, I want to know him. 

Why didn't he answer?

I have to say, SoG has really annoyed me with this whole conversion scheme.  He says you just have to ask god sincerely. Then if it doesn't work, he says, obviously, you weren't sincere.  So no matter how hard you try, no matter what you do, as long as you fail to receive messages from sweet baby jesus, it is your fault.  He has completely dismissed the possibility that his method could somehow not work, that he could somehow be wrong.  God didn't talk to you?  Your fault, motherfucker. God talks to me all the time. 

That is the problem with talking about unverifiable things like gods and other people's intentions.  You can say whatever shit you want, makeup whatever preposterous rules you want, and no one can show you are wrong.  That way, there is no down side.  You never have to apologize or say "I was wrong".  You get to blame the other guy forever. Talk about the ultimate abdication of responsibility.

You could get 10,000 people following SoG's rules and if all of them came up empty, well, fuck them, they did it wrong.  They were not earnest.  But SoG, well, he was blessed.  Lucky him.  My question is, why was so SoG blessed?  What was so special about him?  Why won't god help any of the rest of us avoid infinite torture?


If it does not work, you must be doing it wrong, because I cannot be wrong.  He sounds like my IT department.

That is why the term "unfalsifiable claim" is used, and why they are considered rubbish in scientific circles.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: lost_ti_bon_ange on May 20, 2011, 01:04:30 PM
You could get 10,000 people following SoG's rules and if all of them came up empty, well, fuck them, they did it wrong.  They were not earnest.  But SoG, well, he was blessed.  Lucky him.  My question is, why was so SoG blessed?  What was so special about him?  Why won't god help any of the rest of us avoid infinite torture?

Well he did claim to be pretty special in post #26 on page one:
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2011, 10:29:47 PM » (ftp://« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2011, 10:29:47 PM »)
Quote
Some people are elect, in that God chose them before the foundation of the world.  Meaning, God knew me, knew that He would create me before He even made the world.  The apostles were an example of this.  So, my life has always been predestined.  This isn't the case with everyone.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 20, 2011, 01:50:46 PM
You could get 10,000 people following SoG's rules and if all of them came up empty, well, fuck them, they did it wrong.  They were not earnest.  But SoG, well, he was blessed.  Lucky him.  My question is, why was so SoG blessed?  What was so special about him?  Why won't god help any of the rest of us avoid infinite torture?

Well he did claim to be pretty special in post #26 on page one:
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2011, 10:29:47 PM » (ftp://« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2011, 10:29:47 PM »)
Quote
Some people are elect, in that God chose them before the foundation of the world.  Meaning, God knew me, knew that He would create me before He even made the world.  The apostles were an example of this.  So, my life has always been predestined.  This isn't the case with everyone.

BTW, with that Nym, are you of Hatian decent?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on May 20, 2011, 03:18:44 PM
SoG is muted until he answers my question.

There is no sense in having him, if his character is such that he is not amenable to honest, plain, rational discussion.

Likely, you'll not see him again, you've all seen his type before.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Anfauglir on May 21, 2011, 03:24:48 AM
SoG is muted until he answers my question. .... Likely, you'll not see him again, you've all seen his type before.

I wonder how he feels, knowing that - through his lying and dishonesty - many people have been turned even further from Christ.  And that maybe - just maybe - his deceit and arrogance has been the one thing that prevented someone from gaining salvation.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on May 21, 2011, 06:24:28 AM
My opinion: he's incapable of connecting his actions with anything but positive outcomes. Negative outcomes he can always find a way to pin on the actions of others.

It's infantile, really. But, it's his behaviour so far, in a nutshell, on this forum. I can't believe he's an adult.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: lost_ti_bon_ange on May 21, 2011, 07:50:32 AM
BTW, with that Nym, are you of Hatian decent?

No but I was fascinated with voodoo for awhile and the way it pulls back the curtain of "civilized" from the face of Christianity and shows how it is magic based just like all other 'pagan' religions. I don't like the way Christianity tries to denigrate other religions by calling them 'pagan'.

I also liked that it at least proposes how the 'soul' is "attached" to the body as opposed to Christianity which just has the 'soul' sort of "stuffed" somewhere inside the body. And I figured I must have 'lost' my "little good angel" when I no longer believed in a god or soul, so...  ;D
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Add Homonym on May 21, 2011, 08:50:12 AM
How can you tell the difference between SoG and a common or garden troll? Do you toss a coin?

When my daughter gets her hair braided, it takes several hours. Endless hours of slickly packaged lies, illogic, name-calling, insults, fantasy, and sales pitches for religious merchandise: prayer candles, videos, CD's, books, donations and pay-to-pray requests. I have to literally grind my teeth and put on headphones. Then afterwards I have to deprogram my daughter and answer all her questions.

Damn. I'd be findin some nice Jewish people to braid your daughter's hair.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Bagheera on May 22, 2011, 04:51:27 AM
Woot! I found the archives of the old wwgha! Because apparently, I am slow and do not catch on quickly. And thus did I want to address something:

Quote
Yet atheists never talk about Islam,

If you were a muslim , preaching bullshit, you'd be in the same boat as you are now as a christian.

Personally, I'd be posting less, because I have read the bible a couple of times, but have never read the koran. however, in the old forum I recall a poster who was serving the infallibility of the koran. He didn't get any traction either, IIRC. :)

So I went and found an exchange from afadly (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?topic=14970.msg355694#msg355694), my only correspondence with a self-professed muslim on religion:

Quote
from: afadly on October 10, 2007, 01:06:21 PM
Quote
from: Bagheera on October 10, 2007, 01:02:36 PM
So all i have to do to be declared an enemy, at any time, is to insult Islam, no matter where I am in the world, and according to you a Muslim is justified in killing me.

Is this correct? Am I misrepresenting your religion here? or are we just having problems because of language?
Yes, this is correct
and at that time, any Muslim is allowed to kill you (Depend on situation of course)

Weird. Apparently I am an enemy of Islam now, because I did tell him that I thought his brand of Islam was repugnant.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Hatter23 on May 22, 2011, 09:18:55 PM
BTW, with that Nym, are you of Hatian decent?

No but I was fascinated with voodoo for awhile and the way it pulls back the curtain of "civilized" from the face of Christianity and shows how it is magic based just like all other 'pagan' religions. I don't like the way Christianity tries to denigrate other religions by calling them 'pagan'.

I also liked that it at least proposes how the 'soul' is "attached" to the body as opposed to Christianity which just has the 'soul' sort of "stuffed" somewhere inside the body. And I figured I must have 'lost' my "little good angel" when I no longer believed in a god or soul, so...  ;D

I collect books on Voodoo, talk to practitioners, and from my understanding, you are only partly correct. The "little good angel" is not the portion attached to the body. It is the portion that returns to God after you die. The soul has multiple parts. The portion that is attached to the body sinks into the ground as the body decomposes. The personality acts as a very minor loa that hangs around the family(unless that person had a larger than life type personality, then that psuedo Loa has some power)

IIRC there are actually 17 parts to the soul(varying of course, by the teaching of the particular Hougan). But I only can recall 5 of them.

The Animating force
The Body force
The Personality
The Good
The Bad

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: ksm on May 22, 2011, 09:48:32 PM
The Ugly?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: mram on May 23, 2011, 01:02:30 AM
PTL! Those who chatted with SoG here were given the great honor of exchanging ideas with the ONLY person known on planet earth to have actually been raptured!    :angel:  Rejoice everyone..  :P
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: nogodsforme on May 23, 2011, 04:00:59 PM
How can you tell the difference between SoG and a common or garden troll? Do you toss a coin?

When my daughter gets her hair braided, it takes several hours. Endless hours of slickly packaged lies, illogic, name-calling, insults, fantasy, and sales pitches for religious merchandise: prayer candles, videos, CD's, books, donations and pay-to-pray requests. I have to literally grind my teeth and put on headphones. Then afterwards I have to deprogram my daughter and answer all her questions.

Damn. I'd be findin some nice Jewish people to braid your daughter's hair.

She's a very nice African lady who works hard and needs the money. If I tell her that we should watch something for kids, she is willing to change the channel from the religious station to the cartoon network or something like that. Strangely enough, the other stuff she watches is violent-themed videos with lots of sex and cursing (like the movie Precious). Also inappropriate viewing for a young teen. I wonder if she watches that stuff to get an idea of what a world without god is supposedly like?

If I told her I was an atheist, she would fall off her chair. In my experience, most black people don't think thare are any black atheists. I have also been told by other black people that there are not any black gay people, and that black people do not committ suicide, and that black people do not have incest.... &) &)
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Anfauglir on May 24, 2011, 04:05:28 AM
On the offchance SoG is still reading this....I drafted this a while back for him, but he ran away before I posted it, but I want to clear my draft box so here it is.....
- - - - - - - - - -

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.

Yes.  That sounds like love.  Which makes it quite clear that the being you describe here....

(God) has the power of life and death.  He can demand your life at any time. ..... "I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him ...when you do die your spirit will leave your body, and then you will be afraid.  Imagine what that will be like.  God could demand your life at any time.  Save yourself and come to Christ before it is too late.

...is NOT love.  Love is not easily angered.  Love keeps no record of wrongs.  But God......now God can demand your life at any time, keeps a note of who we are, might throw us into hell....and is a being that we should fear. 

I tell you, servant of god, I fear NOBODY who loves me.  And I love nobody who demands obedience through fear.

- - - - -

By the by....still waiting for a response on how exactly to fast.....
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: screwtape on May 24, 2011, 07:00:09 AM
Some people are elect, in that God chose them before the foundation of the world.  Meaning, God knew me, knew that He would create me before He even made the world.  The apostles were an example of this.  So, my life has always been predestined.  This isn't the case with everyone.

heh.  That's rich.  Some people are predestined, but others are not.  That is saying some people have free will and others do not.   And I enjoy the narcicissm.  He is predestined, just like the apostles.  And of course he knows this is true because...?  The question they all stumble at - how do you know?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: screwtape on May 24, 2011, 07:02:10 AM
So I went and found an exchange from afadly (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?topic=14970.msg355694#msg355694), my only correspondence with a self-professed muslim on religion:

afadly was a special case.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Anfauglir on May 24, 2011, 07:18:43 AM
afadly was a special basket case.

Typo edited.   ;D
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: JesusisLord on May 30, 2011, 04:21:07 AM
Jesus Christ is Almighty God, He is the bodily expression of the GodHead.  He is God period. He will anyone who is willing to come to Him in faith! 

If any of you doubt this, you may email me at JesusisLord@mailinator.com and I will happilly pray for you -- that the One and only True God Jesus Christ may open your eyes that you may see that He is real, that He is Love, and that He heals all who come to Him in faith!
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on May 30, 2011, 04:44:30 AM
Jesus Christ is Almighty God, He is the bodily expression of the GodHead.  He is God period. He will anyone who is willing to come to Him in faith! 

If any of you doubt this, you may email me at JesusisLord@mailinator.com and I will happilly pray for you -- that the One and only True God Jesus Christ may open your eyes that you may see that He is real, that He is Love, and that He heals all who come to Him in faith!

I think this is a victory. They are afraid to make any guarantees based on this "really true truth of truths" they know. It's all the bestest, realest thing since sliced bread, until they have to make a testable claim, then the procedure is provide yourself with as many outs as possible. It's now all "maybes", "perhaps", "hopefully".....etc

Welcome to irrelevance, Jil. 

Edit: Oh, yes, and the cowardice of spam posting. That way there's no need to think critically at all. Very low character.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: ZenZen on May 30, 2011, 05:20:42 AM
Jesusislord - please pray for me. How long will it take before we can expect an "answer"?  &)

I wonder if JesusIsLord is going to answer. I think he's a hit'n'run kinda christian...
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on May 30, 2011, 05:53:39 AM
Jesus Christ is Almighty God, He is the bodily expression of the GodHead.  He is God period. He will anyone who is willing to come to Him in faith! 

If any of you doubt this, you may email me at JesusisLord@mailinator.com and I will happilly pray for you -- that the One and only True God Jesus Christ may open your eyes that you may see that He is real, that He is Love, and that He heals all who come to Him in faith!

You know what, JesusisLord?  Of all the Charlie Browns in this world, you're the Charlie Browniest.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on May 30, 2011, 08:30:50 AM
Jesus Christ is Almighty God, He is the bodily expression of the GodHead.  He is God period. He will anyone who is willing to come to Him in faith! 

If any of you doubt this, you may email me at JesusisLord@mailinator.com and I will happilly pray for you -- that the One and only True God Jesus Christ may open your eyes that you may see that He is real, that He is Love, and that He heals all who come to Him in faith!

Been there, done that.  Make-believe time is over.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Anfauglir on May 31, 2011, 07:56:21 AM
If any of you doubt this, you may email me at JesusisLord@mailinator.com and I will happilly pray for you.....

Hang about - I thought your god was a really whizzy one?  You know, omnipotent and omniscient and all that?  So, how come you need us to email you to let us know who we are?  Can't I just say here that "Anfauglir wants to be prayed to" and you'll do it - surely your god will know who "Anfauglir" is, he doesn't need my email address as well?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: velkyn on May 31, 2011, 08:53:21 AM
Jesus Christ is Almighty God, He is the bodily expression of the GodHead.  He is God period. He will anyone who is willing to come to Him in faith! 

If any of you doubt this, you may email me at JesusisLord@mailinator.com and I will happilly pray for you -- that the One and only True God Jesus Christ may open your eyes that you may see that He is real, that He is Love, and that He heals all who come to Him in faith!

bunches of Christians have claimed to have done this for me.  You want to try too?  Wow, and when you fail miserably, will you be honest enough to admit it?  I doubt it and that makes you a coward and a liar.  You'll just convince yourself that your God has "other plans" for me.  Well, I've prayed hard when I was losing my faith and i got nothing.  please do explain that, JIL. 

I also see churches full of the infirm and injured. why, JIL?  Aren't they praying "right"?  What is this magic formula you have?  Surely you'll share it? 
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: EV on May 31, 2011, 11:01:36 AM
SoG and JiL, please read the Bible passsages Mark 16:17-18,

Quote
"And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

Now sit in a bath full of Black Widows, Black Mambas and Box Jellyfish, drink a bottle of Mr Muscle, and video it, and put it on youTube, and post us the link of it when you have done it.

Hell, do it together at the same time, I am not fussed.

You'll probably get 1,000,000,000 views, and you will convert the entire world to Christianity by showing God's amazing miracle working being not fabricated by primitive men, but actually happening in the world today, thus proving all of us 'sinners and blasphemers' wrong.

You say your faith is so strong that God has chosen you, God has reshaped you into the best sort of Christian.

Drink the poison to prove your faith, because in the Bible, in nothing less than the gospel, it tells you that if you do drink deadly poison,  you will be absolutely fine because you believe in God and Jesus.

If you don't do it, you are just proving to us further that your faith is not actually all that it cracks up to be, after all, as a Christian you have to have faith in the Lord your God.

Quote
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Proverbs 3:5




To the atheist members of WWGHA, if this works then SoG might finally stop arguing....  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Turbo SS on May 31, 2011, 11:48:32 AM
SoG and JiL, please read the Bible passsages Mark 16:17-18,

Quote
"And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

Now sit in a bath full of Black Widows, Black Mambas and Box Jellyfish, drink a bottle of Mr Muscle, and video it, and put it on youTube, and post us the link of it when you have done it.

Hell, do it together at the same time, I am not fussed.

You'll probably get 1,000,000,000 views, and you will convert the entire world to Christianity by showing God's amazing miracle working being not fabricated by primitive men, but actually happening in the world today, thus proving all of us 'sinners and blasphemers' wrong.

You say your faith is so strong that God has chosen you, God has reshaped you into the best sort of Christian.

Drink the poison to prove your faith, because in the Bible, in nothing less than the gospel, it tells you that if you do drink deadly poison,  you will be absolutely fine because you believe in God and Jesus.

If you don't do it, you are just proving to us further that your faith is not actually all that it cracks up to be, after all, as a Christian you have to have faith in the Lord your God.


Oh I like this one.  What do the christians have to say about it?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: rev45 on May 31, 2011, 12:55:33 PM
Oh I like this one.  What do the christians have to say about it?
The few times I've mentioned it to Christians they respond with the "do not test the Lord" crap.  It kinda boils down to: God says Christians can do these things, but by doing them they're doing what God says not to do, so therefore ???????
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: velkyn on May 31, 2011, 02:50:17 PM
and as usual, the Bible has no problem with believers testing their god, with Thomas being a lovely example. It's just a convenient out for them. 
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Persephone on May 31, 2011, 07:19:41 PM
The few times I've mentioned it to Christians they respond with the "do not test the Lord" crap.  It kinda boils down to: God says Christians can do these things{A}, but by doing them they're doing what God says not to do {B}, so therefore ???????
{Parentheses mine} But they stop thinking between point A and point B.

Christianity is a whole lotta isolated points. That's the only way it works for believers. Once you start connecting dots and see all the breaks in the logic, cat's out of the bag. Cognitive dissonance settles in. So believers have no choice but to stop thinking between points.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: mram on May 31, 2011, 08:26:18 PM
Quote
If any of you doubt this, you may email me at JesusisLord@mailinator.com and I will happilly pray for you -- that the One and only True God Jesus Christ may open your eyes that you may see that He is real, that He is Love, and that He heals all who come to Him in faith!
God responds through anonymous email now..but ONLY the ONE and ONLY true god.. Not the OTHER only true god...
I'll pray for you JesusIsLord to turn into a gold statue! How cool would that be huh? If it happens though, and have no doubt I AM praying for that to happen I only request that you show up in my backyard immediately before you are rendered into gold. There's a "we buy broken gold" store right down the street and they've made me a deal. For every gold statue I bring in they'll pray for you too.. Not a bad deal, huh?  :angel:
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Avatar Of Belial on June 01, 2011, 10:54:19 AM
I'll pray for you JesusIsLord to turn into a gold statue!

Well, if we're making wishes to the Magic Genie in the Sky, may as well ask for a Diamond Statue.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Lisa on June 01, 2011, 12:35:44 PM
Jesus Christ is Almighty God, He is the bodily expression of the GodHead.  He is God period. He will anyone who is willing to come to Him in faith! 

If any of you doubt this, you may email me at JesusisLord@mailinator.com and I will happilly pray for you -- that the One and only True God Jesus Christ may open your eyes that you may see that He is real, that He is Love, and that He heals all who come to Him in faith!

I never did believe in middle men, I always went straight to the top when I had faith.  And I prayed, and I prayed, and I prayed, and it still resulted in my daughters death.  Are you telling me this is what a loving god does to those who come to him in faith? 
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Emily on June 01, 2011, 09:45:39 PM
JesusIsLord, I hope you do come back because I have a question and I hate using e-mail. How much faith is good enough for this god to do his loving deeds in our lives? You'd probably go on to quote the book of Job or Ecclesiastes, or something, or say we needed more faith when we hit a rough patch in the road. But to those who had very strong faith and prayed to god on a daily basis, thanking him for everything and giving up their time to go to church to hear his "good word" without even so much of a fight with their parents to get out of going, but simply wanted to go because of the agape love they had for this god figure. What is good enough for him? We have had faith, and we gave him a lot of our time and he still let us down. He doesn't seem like a loving godhead to me if he requires so much faith to give me a favor. I did my job in worshiping him, but he never did his. About loving: there are times when my husband pisses me the fuck but I still love him and would do anything for him regardless. but with god, for whatever reason, if we don't have enough faith in his eyes, but enough for us to think he loves us, he will completely do nothing for us because we don't meet his standards that he has placed so high. It's not our fault we lost our faith in him. He, if he is real, proved that he doesn't deserve our faith.

Some love. The whole "come to him in faith" thing pisses me off. No one has the right to say that we as atheists have never sought god with faith. Some of us have. No one has the right to say that he is "love" without knowing us personally and knowing that  even when we did have faith the world seems the same now, or seems better than, it ever did while sitting in the pew.

Face it, JesusisLord. You're barking up the wrong tree.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: mram on June 02, 2011, 02:30:10 AM
I'll pray for you JesusIsLord to turn into a gold statue!

Well, if we're making wishes to the Magic Genie in the Sky, may as well ask for a Diamond Statue.
We'll split the difference.. A gold statue with diamond eyes, fingernails and a big ruby belly button.   ;)
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: MatCauthon on June 03, 2011, 11:06:13 AM
I was going to ask why you guys even bother, but after some deliberation, I have concluded that you can't let retards like that come into your house and trash it without saying a word.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: velkyn on June 03, 2011, 11:10:50 AM
I was going to ask why you guys even bother, but after some deliberation, I have concluded that you can't let retards like that come into your house and trash it without saying a word.

yep, remaining quiet about stupidity will definitely do nothing to stop it.  Even though countering theists probably doesn't do that much, at least it is *something*.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Death over Life on June 03, 2011, 10:36:18 PM
Well, much better arguing like this than putting theist's head on stakes like they've done to non-believers for CENTURIES, don't you think?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Grogs on June 04, 2011, 10:48:42 AM
I was going to ask why you guys even bother, but after some deliberation, I have concluded that you can't let retards like that come into your house and trash it without saying a word.

Well, it's not like they're literally pissing on the drapes or anything. If it were just the 'unwavering, unshakeable' christians who were posting the nonsense, I doubt most of us would even care. Let them run around with their hands over their heads like some ten year old who just won his first fist fight if it makes them feel better. But the thing is that for poster like SoG who comes in and makes their posts, there are probably others who are lurking. Some of these spectators are probably more honest than the unwavering christians who will tie their brain into any logical knot necessary to continue their belief in god, the infallibility of the bible, creationism, etc. When they see logical counterarguments presented and a reply that amounts to "Nuh Uh!" these lurkers might examine their beliefs and honestly follow the evidence rather than blindly following the dogma pushed by their parents. So while arguing with Sog or the like seems like an exercise in futility, it often has consequences which might not be realized for months, if ever.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: rogerthedodger on June 05, 2011, 05:32:04 PM
If God did heal an amputee, would you know about it?  Do you have a list of every amputee in the world and what happens to them?  Why do you think God wouldn't do it?  Do you think He can't do it?
Are you really suggesting that God has replaced a lost limb?  Recently?  Tell you what, if I were to see an original lost arm, along with its owner, complete with replacement arm, and all 10 fingerprints, both palm-prints, and all moles etc were an exact match, then I may well be converted.

If you want to know if Jesus is real or not, put Him to the test.  With a sincere heart, pray to Him like this:

Jesus, if you do exist I want to know about it and I want to know you.  Please reveal yourself to me Jesus;  show me that you're real.

If you you do that Jesus will show you that He is real and that He is Almighty God.  Here is a word for you:

Matthew 11:28

Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest

God bless.
That's a really nice sentiment.  Truly.  See - I am balanced and open-minded ;)
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: MatCauthon on June 06, 2011, 10:18:04 AM
I was going to ask why you guys even bother, but after some deliberation, I have concluded that you can't let retards like that come into your house and trash it without saying a word.

Well, it's not like they're literally pissing on the drapes or anything. If it were just the 'unwavering, unshakeable' christians who were posting the nonsense, I doubt most of us would even care. Let them run around with their hands over their heads like some ten year old who just won his first fist fight if it makes them feel better. But the thing is that for poster like SoG who comes in and makes their posts, there are probably others who are lurking. Some of these spectators are probably more honest than the unwavering christians who will tie their brain into any logical knot necessary to continue their belief in god, the infallibility of the bible, creationism, etc. When they see logical counterarguments presented and a reply that amounts to "Nuh Uh!" these lurkers might examine their beliefs and honestly follow the evidence rather than blindly following the dogma pushed by their parents. So while arguing with Sog or the like seems like an exercise in futility, it often has consequences which might not be realized for months, if ever.

I hadn't thought of that, good point.  Is there a thread with people who saw reason and converted due to what they read on this site/forum?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Don_Quixote on June 06, 2011, 11:27:37 AM
I am one of those.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Graybeard on June 06, 2011, 11:57:26 AM
I hadn't thought of that, good point.  Is there a thread with people who saw reason and converted due to what they read on this site/forum?
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/board,29.0.html
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Karl on June 07, 2011, 12:18:02 PM
I never did believe in middle men, I always went straight to the top when I had faith.  And I prayed, and I prayed, and I prayed, and it still resulted in my daughters death.  Are you telling me this is what a loving god does to those who come to him in faith?
Lisa, it is a long thread but somehow I stumbled over your message. I am not a preacher, more of a born atheist. I honestly feel sorry for your loss. If you feel offended by my post please be assured that that is not my intention.

I just have to ask you one question that I think is important. It is very personal and again please do not be offended. As you say yourself, you prayed. And you were deceived. Now are you angry with god or have you realized that he simply does not exist?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Lisa on June 09, 2011, 11:25:20 AM
I never did believe in middle men, I always went straight to the top when I had faith.  And I prayed, and I prayed, and I prayed, and it still resulted in my daughters death.  Are you telling me this is what a loving god does to those who come to him in faith?
Lisa, it is a long thread but somehow I stumbled over your message. I am not a preacher, more of a born atheist. I honestly feel sorry for your loss. If you feel offended by my post please be assured that that is not my intention.

I just have to ask you one question that I think is important. It is very personal and again please do not be offended. As you say yourself, you prayed. And you were deceived. Now are you angry with god or have you realized that he simply does not exist?

Karl,
At the time, 1983, I still believed in god, and was just very angry, but made the typical excuses for him.  That my daughter would have faced a horrible life somehow if allowed to live, so was better off in heaven, or would have been abducted and her whereabouts never known to me, which would have been worse than death.   I think this is pretty typical of believers to rationalize for god.   

Over the years, my faith lessened, due to an increase in the lack of evidence that there was a god watching over us.  IE:  wars, poverty, starvation, sickness, abuse, suicides, etc.  But like any good addict, I had to "hit bottom" first and realize that god does not exist.   So I can no longer be angry.   
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Add Homonym on June 12, 2011, 09:55:27 AM
You'd probably go on to quote the book of Job or Ecclesiastes, or something,

I'll quote it....

Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do.
Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil.
Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun— all your meaningless days (9:7-9).

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: EV on June 13, 2011, 03:36:52 AM
Okay screw JesusIsLord, I'm going to email him... It should be quite amusing. Also, it's good revision as I have a philosophy exam tomorrow ;)
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Karl on June 13, 2011, 06:58:45 AM
Karl,
At the time, 1983, I still believed in god, ... , I had to "hit bottom" first and realize that god does not exist. So I can no longer be angry.   
Thank you for your answer.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Benny on June 15, 2011, 01:40:25 PM
What I mean about taking care of my family is this..I am here to witness to them.  My mother is an agnostic, my sister an atheist, my brother an atheist and my father is an atheist.  Currently, I have been called to witness to them.  After this, I will go where He calls me next.
Does Jesus have you on speed dial?  No?  Then how do you know that you have been called to witness them?  How will you know where to go next?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: jdcpe17 on July 07, 2011, 02:28:43 PM
Quote
God, and by God I mean the judeo-christian God, is not limited.  Nothing is too difficult for Him to do.  He is God Almighty and can do anything.  It is just as easy for Him to heal an amputee as it is to raise someone from the dead.  The bible has testimony of several miracles which were of a greater order than healing a lost limb, so why this particular case is noteworthy to atheists I have no idea.

It is the Bible and its stories themselves which are in need of verification, SoG.  This website's question is one way of verifying them.  And they fail the test, when put to it.

Why would a real god choose to fail such a test, when it could succeed?

Actually the things the bible says happened here on earth in front of other people are written down in many other texts by non-christians. its pretty good verification.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: One Above All on July 07, 2011, 02:30:11 PM
Actually the things the bible says happened here on earth in front of other people are written down in many other texts by non-christians. its pretty good verification.

Correction: It would be pretty good verification, IF it were true.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Avatar Of Belial on July 07, 2011, 02:30:34 PM
Actually the things the bible says happened here on earth in front of other people are written down in many other texts by non-christians. its pretty good verification.

Would you care to give examples?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: screwtape on July 07, 2011, 02:58:51 PM
Actually the things the bible says happened here on earth in front of other people are written down in many other texts by non-christians. its pretty good verification.

tits or gtfo.

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Azdgari on July 07, 2011, 03:05:21 PM
Quote
God, and by God I mean the judeo-christian God, is not limited.  Nothing is too difficult for Him to do.  He is God Almighty and can do anything.  It is just as easy for Him to heal an amputee as it is to raise someone from the dead.  The bible has testimony of several miracles which were of a greater order than healing a lost limb, so why this particular case is noteworthy to atheists I have no idea.

It is the Bible and its stories themselves which are in need of verification, SoG.  This website's question is one way of verifying them.  And they fail the test, when put to it.

Why would a real god choose to fail such a test, when it could succeed?

Actually the things the bible says happened here on earth in front of other people are written down in many other texts by non-christians. its pretty good verification.

Remember the context of the exchange you quoted, jdcpe17:  The site's question, WWGHA.  It is also the name of this thread.  In that context, can you answer my question, having quoted it already?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: jdcpe17 on July 08, 2011, 12:02:56 PM
Jesus Christ is Almighty God, He is the bodily expression of the GodHead.  He is God period. He will anyone who is willing to come to Him in faith! 

If any of you doubt this, you may email me at JesusisLord@mailinator.com and I will happilly pray for you -- that the One and only True God Jesus Christ may open your eyes that you may see that He is real, that He is Love, and that He heals all who come to Him in faith!

I never did believe in middle men, I always went straight to the top when I had faith.  And I prayed, and I prayed, and I prayed, and it still resulted in my daughters death.  Are you telling me this is what a loving god does to those who come to him in faith?

That must have been absolutely horrific and to still think about it to this day. Im very very sorry for your loss. No parent wants to outlive their child.

Just think for a moment, though, do you think your daughter would want to be the reason her mother no longer believes in God?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: jdcpe17 on July 08, 2011, 12:07:10 PM
Quote
God, and by God I mean the judeo-christian God, is not limited.  Nothing is too difficult for Him to do.  He is God Almighty and can do anything.  It is just as easy for Him to heal an amputee as it is to raise someone from the dead.  The bible has testimony of several miracles which were of a greater order than healing a lost limb, so why this particular case is noteworthy to atheists I have no idea.

It is the Bible and its stories themselves which are in need of verification, SoG.  This website's question is one way of verifying them.  And they fail the test, when put to it.

Why would a real god choose to fail such a test, when it could succeed?

Actually the things the bible says happened here on earth in front of other people are written down in many other texts by non-christians. its pretty good verification.

Remember the context of the exchange you quoted, jdcpe17:  The site's question, WWGHA.  It is also the name of this thread.  In that context, can you answer my question, having quoted it already?

Sure, but ive answered this many times on my briefy appearance on this forum. God will answer your prayers if they are to His Glory. If they are some sort of worldly gain for you, then probably not. God could care less about any test you give Him, and the bible even reads about it being wrong to test God at all. That is just how it is. Now, if you choose not to believe in the Bible, thats your choice and nothing i said matters. 

CHEERS!   ;D
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: bgb on July 08, 2011, 12:07:52 PM
Quote
God, and by God I mean the judeo-christian God, is not limited.  Nothing is too difficult for Him to do.  He is God Almighty and can do anything.  It is just as easy for Him to heal an amputee as it is to raise someone from the dead.  The bible has testimony of several miracles which were of a greater order than healing a lost limb, so why this particular case is noteworthy to atheists I have no idea.

It is the Bible and its stories themselves which are in need of verification, SoG.  This website's question is one way of verifying them.  And they fail the test, when put to it.

Why would a real god choose to fail such a test, when it could succeed?

Actually the things the bible says happened here on earth in front of other people are written down in many other texts by non-christians. its pretty good verification.

Still waiting for your evidence
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: jdcpe17 on July 08, 2011, 12:09:45 PM
Quote
God, and by God I mean the judeo-christian God, is not limited.  Nothing is too difficult for Him to do.  He is God Almighty and can do anything.  It is just as easy for Him to heal an amputee as it is to raise someone from the dead.  The bible has testimony of several miracles which were of a greater order than healing a lost limb, so why this particular case is noteworthy to atheists I have no idea.

It is the Bible and its stories themselves which are in need of verification, SoG.  This website's question is one way of verifying them.  And they fail the test, when put to it.

Why would a real god choose to fail such a test, when it could succeed?

Actually the things the bible says happened here on earth in front of other people are written down in many other texts by non-christians. its pretty good verification.

Still waiting for your evidence

What evidence do you want?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Avatar Of Belial on July 08, 2011, 12:16:53 PM
Actually the things the bible says happened here on earth in front of other people are written down in many other texts by non-christians. its pretty good verification.

Still waiting for your evidence

What evidence do you want?

Show us the 'many other texts by non-christians' that provide this verification you speak of.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: jdcpe17 on July 08, 2011, 12:20:28 PM
Actually the things the bible says happened here on earth in front of other people are written down in many other texts by non-christians. its pretty good verification.

Still waiting for your evidence

What evidence do you want?

Show us the 'many other texts by non-christians' that provide this verification you speak of.

Compliance.

taken from http://carm.org/non-biblical-accounts-new-testament-events-andor-people on 7-8-2011.

========================================================================================
Following is a list of extra-biblical (outside of the Bible) references of biblical events, places, etc.  The list is not exhaustive but is very representative of what is available.

1.Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?, a Jewish historian) mentions John the Baptist and Herod - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 5, par. 2
A."Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness."

2.Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Jesus - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 3, par. 3.
A.Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles.  He was [the] Christ.  And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.  And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
i.There is debate among scholars as to the authenticity of this quote since it is so favorable to Jesus.  For more information on this, please see Regarding the quotes from the historian Josephus about Jesus

3.Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions James, the brother of Jesus - Antiquities, Book 20, ch. 9.
A."Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done."

4.Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Ananias the High Priest who was mentioned in Acts 23:2
A.Now as soon as Albinus was come to the city of Jerusalem, he used all his endeavors and care that the country might be kept in peace, and this by destroying many of the Sicarii.  But as for the high priest, Ananias (25) he increased in glory every day, and this to a great degree, and had obtained the favor and esteem of the citizens in a signal manner; for he was a great hoarder up of money
B.Acts 23:2, "And the high priest Ananias commanded those standing beside him to strike him [Paul] on the mouth."

5.Tacitus (A.D. c.55-A.D. c.117, Roman historian) mentions "Christus" who is Jesus - Annals 15.44
A."Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."
i.Ref. from http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.mb.txt

6.Thallus (Circa AD 52, eclipse of the sun) Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time.  His writings are only found as citations by others.  Julius Africanus, who wrote about AD 221, mentioned Thallus' account of an eclipse of the sun.
A."On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down.  This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun."
i.Is this a reference to the eclipse at the crucifixion?  Luke 23:44-45, "And it was now about the sixth hour, and darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 the sun being obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn in two."
ii.The oddity is that Jesus' crucifixion occurred at the Passover which was a full moon.  It is not possible for a solar eclipse to occur at a full moon.  Note that Julius Africanus draws the conclusion that Thallus' mentioning of the eclipse was describing the one at Jesus' crucifixion.  It may not have been.
iii.Julius Africanus, Extant Writings, XVIII in the Ante Nicene Fathers, ed. by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973), vol. VI, p. 130. as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

7.Pliny the Younger mentioned Christ. Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor.  Pliny wrote ten books.  The tenth around AD 112.
A."They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food but food of an ordinary and innocent kind."
i.Pliny, Letters, transl. by William Melmoth, rev. by W.M.L. Hutchinson (Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1935), vol. II, X:96 as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

8.The Talmud
A."On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged.  For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.  Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf."  But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!"
i.Gal. 3:13, "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree."
ii.Luke 22:1-2, "Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is called the Passover, was approaching.  2And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how they might put Him to death; for they were afraid of the people."
iii.This quotation was taken from the reading in The Babylonian Talmud, transl. by I. Epstein (London: Soncino, 1935), vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a, p. 281 as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

9.Lucian (circa 120-after 180) mentions Jesus. Greek writer and rhetorician.
A."The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.  All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property."
i.Lucian, The Death of Peregrine, 1113, in The Works of Lucian of Samosata, transl. by H.W. Fowler and F.G. Fowler, 4 vols. (Oxford: Clarendon, 1949), vol. 4, as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.
ii.Though Lucian opposed Christianity, he acknowledges Jesus, that Jesus was crucified, that Christians worship him, and that this was done by faith.
========================================================================================
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Lisa on July 08, 2011, 12:39:34 PM
Actually the things the bible says happened here on earth in front of other people are written down in many other texts by non-christians. its pretty good verification.

Still waiting for your evidence

What evidence do you want?

Show us the 'many other texts by non-christians' that provide this verification you speak of.

Compliance.

taken from http://carm.org/non-biblical-accounts-new-testament-events-andor-people on 7-8-2011.

========================================================================================
Following is a list of extra-biblical (outside of the Bible) references of biblical events, places, etc.  The list is not exhaustive but is very representative of what is available.

1.Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?, a Jewish historian) mentions John the Baptist and Herod - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 5, par. 2
A."Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness."

2.Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Jesus - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 3, par. 3.
A.Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles.  He was [the] Christ.  And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.  And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
i.There is debate among scholars as to the authenticity of this quote since it is so favorable to Jesus.  For more information on this, please see Regarding the quotes from the historian Josephus about Jesus

3.Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions James, the brother of Jesus - Antiquities, Book 20, ch. 9.
A."Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done."

4.Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Ananias the High Priest who was mentioned in Acts 23:2
A.Now as soon as Albinus was come to the city of Jerusalem, he used all his endeavors and care that the country might be kept in peace, and this by destroying many of the Sicarii.  But as for the high priest, Ananias (25) he increased in glory every day, and this to a great degree, and had obtained the favor and esteem of the citizens in a signal manner; for he was a great hoarder up of money
B.Acts 23:2, "And the high priest Ananias commanded those standing beside him to strike him [Paul] on the mouth."

5.Tacitus (A.D. c.55-A.D. c.117, Roman historian) mentions "Christus" who is Jesus - Annals 15.44
A."Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."
i.Ref. from http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.mb.txt

6.Thallus (Circa AD 52, eclipse of the sun) Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time.  His writings are only found as citations by others.  Julius Africanus, who wrote about AD 221, mentioned Thallus' account of an eclipse of the sun.
A."On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down.  This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun."
i.Is this a reference to the eclipse at the crucifixion?  Luke 23:44-45, "And it was now about the sixth hour, and darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 the sun being obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn in two."
ii.The oddity is that Jesus' crucifixion occurred at the Passover which was a full moon.  It is not possible for a solar eclipse to occur at a full moon.  Note that Julius Africanus draws the conclusion that Thallus' mentioning of the eclipse was describing the one at Jesus' crucifixion.  It may not have been.
iii.Julius Africanus, Extant Writings, XVIII in the Ante Nicene Fathers, ed. by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973), vol. VI, p. 130. as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

7.Pliny the Younger mentioned Christ. Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor.  Pliny wrote ten books.  The tenth around AD 112.
A."They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food but food of an ordinary and innocent kind."
i.Pliny, Letters, transl. by William Melmoth, rev. by W.M.L. Hutchinson (Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1935), vol. II, X:96 as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

8.The Talmud
A."On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged.  For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.  Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf."  But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!"
i.Gal. 3:13, "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree."
ii.Luke 22:1-2, "Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is called the Passover, was approaching.  2And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how they might put Him to death; for they were afraid of the people."
iii.This quotation was taken from the reading in The Babylonian Talmud, transl. by I. Epstein (London: Soncino, 1935), vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a, p. 281 as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

9.Lucian (circa 120-after 180) mentions Jesus. Greek writer and rhetorician.
A."The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.  All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property."
i.Lucian, The Death of Peregrine, 1113, in The Works of Lucian of Samosata, transl. by H.W. Fowler and F.G. Fowler, 4 vols. (Oxford: Clarendon, 1949), vol. 4, as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.
ii.Though Lucian opposed Christianity, he acknowledges Jesus, that Jesus was crucified, that Christians worship him, and that this was done by faith.
========================================================================================
Oh, I get it now, God does heal amputees!  ;D
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Graybeard on July 08, 2011, 12:42:18 PM
Following is a list of extra-biblical (outside of the Bible) references of biblical events, places, etc.  The list is not exhaustive but is very representative of what is available.

1.Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?, a Jewish historian) mentions John the Baptist and Herod - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 5, par. 2
AFAIK, usually accepted but does not mention Jesus

Quote
2.Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Jesus - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 3, par. 3.
Is not accepted as being genuine by the majority of serious theologians

Quote
3.Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions James, the brother of Jesus - Antiquities, Book 20, ch. 9.
Jesus was not an uncommon name and this passage has been shown to refer to another Jesus (some temple official, IIRC)

Quote
4.Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Ananias the High Priest who was mentioned in Acts 23:2
Believed to be accurate but does not mention Jesus.

Quote
5.Tacitus (A.D. c.55-A.D. c.117, Roman historian) mentions "Christus" who is Jesus - Annals 15.44
Christus isn't Jesus at all, IIRC, there is a Christus, a slave, mentioned by Paul. This is a common name.

Quote
6.Thallus (Circa AD 52, eclipse of the sun) Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time.  [...]
i.Is this a reference to the eclipse at the crucifixion?
No there wasn't an eclipse at that the time of the crucifixion.

Quote
7.Pliny the Younger mentioned Christ. Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor.  Pliny wrote ten books.  The tenth around AD 112.
Pliny reports only what Christians did - he does not cite any truth and he was writing 70 years after events

Quote
8.The Talmud
A."On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshu#Yeshu_the_sorcerer

Quote
9.Lucian (circa 120-after 180) mentions Jesus. Greek writer and rhetorician.
A."The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time,
Over100 years after the event and describing Christians not adding any proof.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: jdcpe17 on July 08, 2011, 12:43:47 PM
Oh, I get it now, God does heal amputees!  ;D

Well that is nice. I did not know that. I suppose anything is possible though. I heard that God put someones ear back on one though....
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: velkyn on July 08, 2011, 12:53:27 PM
Well that is nice. I did not know that. I suppose anything is possible though. I heard that God put someones ear back on one though....
yep, right from the bible.  No one else noticed though.  NO one noticed the supposed earthquake at the cruxifiction, or the sun darkening, or the exodus, or the massive gatherings of thousands of people in an occupied country, or any one raising from the dead, or people being healed.

And, though I forget the exact one, one of those "sources" you claim also says that soem Roman emperor also did miracles.  Was he lying about that?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Avatar Of Belial on July 08, 2011, 12:56:39 PM
Compliance.
Graybeard already handled what you put up, but I want to touch on the source for first four quickly.

1.-3. You source this as "Antiquities" - I assume you refer to Antiquitates Judaicae (Antiquities of the Jews)?
This is a Jewish source of that time, so it is already guarenteed to share some references with the religion that spawned from its own. Also, all the surviving manuscripts we have come from christian sources, calling them further into question as to thier validity in some cases.

4. The author is cited as Flavius Josephus. Same guy from the first three - is it the same source book? (This would be for my own knowledge, I have not dug into this as much as some of the experts around here.)
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: jdcpe17 on July 08, 2011, 12:57:13 PM
Over100 years after the event and describing Christians not adding any proof.

around about the time of the bible people were still transitioning from "oral tradition" to written records.

I suppose if you want to exclude all oral tradition that is your choice. However it has been showen to be very accurate and used widely. For example the jewish rabbis during this time had memorized the entire torah (basically the OT).

Most people doing the super detailed and long winded arguements for and against the bible conceed that these are usable proofs of "something" that the bible mentions - conceeding that just because they are 100 yrs old or whatever has little to no bearing on their practicality and usefulness.

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Avatar Of Belial on July 08, 2011, 01:03:05 PM
I suppose if you want to exclude all oral tradition that is your choice. However it has been showen to be very accurate and used widely.

While I certainly won't doubt they were used widely... accurate?

Isn't part of the memorization process 'making it your own'?
The Telephone game is a good demonstration of why I would hesitate to trust Oral sources, how would you even prove its accuracy without a written version to compare it too?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: jdcpe17 on July 08, 2011, 01:03:39 PM
Compliance.
Graybeard already handled what you put up, but I want to touch on the source for first four quickly.

1.-3. You source this as "Antiquities" - I assume you refer to Antiquitates Judaicae (Antiquities of the Jews)?
This is a Jewish source of that time, so it is already guarenteed to share some references with the religion that spawned from its own. Also, all the surviving manuscripts we have come from christian sources, calling them further into question as to thier validity in some cases.

4. The author is cited as Flavius Josephus. Same guy from the first three - is it the same source book? (This would be for my own knowledge, I have not dug into this as much as some of the experts around here.)

yea he is the cited author.

you are very wrong in your assumptions about the jewish community at this time. Saul (Paul) was a very high level and respected Jew at the time just after Jesus died. He was considered to be extraordinarily intelligent, and aggressive. He made it his personal goal to stamp out all christians.

The jews saw christains as a blight in their world. The jewish historians wrote things about Jesus that everyone knew - like that he did miraculous things - but the jews refused to believe that he was God (they are the ones that charged he should die for calling Himself God) so the things they wrote about Him were written in such a way as to be read by other jews to see that Jesus must have been a false prophet - like that Jesus used magic. Magic, according to the OT, is very evil and no one should use magic of any type (good or bad magic whatever). So to say Jesus did his miracles using magic, for example, told all the jews what they already knew - that Jesus did miracles, but also gave an explanation as to how He did it - magic - which is why they crucified him.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: jdcpe17 on July 08, 2011, 01:07:32 PM
I suppose if you want to exclude all oral tradition that is your choice. However it has been showen to be very accurate and used widely.

While I certainly won't doubt they were used widely... accurate?

Isn't part of the memorization process 'making it your own'?
The Telephone game is a good demonstration of why I would hesitate to trust Oral sources, how would you even prove its accuracy without a written version to compare it too?

yes but the telephone game is not how oral tradition works.

in oral tradition , groups of people would sit and listen as one or groups of other recounted the history they memorized. if anyone disagreed they would speak up. and everyone had the same story and kept the same story. no changes.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: jdcpe17 on July 08, 2011, 01:09:11 PM
Well that is nice. I did not know that. I suppose anything is possible though. I heard that God put someones ear back on one though....
yep, right from the bible.  No one else noticed though.  NO one noticed the supposed earthquake at the cruxifiction, or the sun darkening, or the exodus, or the massive gatherings of thousands of people in an occupied country, or any one raising from the dead, or people being healed.

And, though I forget the exact one, one of those "sources" you claim also says that soem Roman emperor also did miracles.  Was he lying about that?

i have no idea if a roman emporer did miracles. probably a miracle to become an emperor. all this is saying however is that her are non-biblical sources that same similar things as the bible, around about the time of the bible being written. that is all this is saying. external proof of what the bible says.

yes you do run into the problem of should you belive the rat in jail who lied about something else? dunno. examine the motives. what motive did the non-biblical sources have for writing what they wrote? was it to make Jesus and the bible sound better? nope.... and often to make Jesus sound worse.


Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: One Above All on July 08, 2011, 01:10:37 PM
yes but the telephone game is not how oral tradition works.

in oral tradition , groups of people would sit and listen as one or groups of other recounted the history they memorized. if anyone disagreed they would speak up. and everyone had the same story and kept the same story. no changes.

Actually no. In oral tradition, everyone would sit and listen as one of the elders would tell a story. And nobody would question the elder. Ever.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Azdgari on July 08, 2011, 01:15:01 PM
Sure, but ive answered this many times on my briefy appearance on this forum. God will answer your prayers if they are to His Glory. If they are some sort of worldly gain for you, then probably not.

Praying for an amputee's limbs to be restored would both glorify the god who granted the prayer, and not be for personal world gain.  Your "answer" does not adequately address the question.

God could care less about any test you give Him, and the bible even reads about it being wrong to test God at all. That is just how it is. Now, if you choose not to believe in the Bible, thats your choice and nothing i said matters.

So according to you, God chooses to fail a test of his existence because he doesn't care about it.  Okay.

As long as we both agree that there is no god who cares whether or not people believe in its existence, I think we'll get along splendidly.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Avatar Of Belial on July 08, 2011, 01:15:46 PM
you are very wrong in your assumptions about the jewish community at this time.

What assumption? I made no assumption and nothing after this sentance addresses anything I said. Read what I write.

Christianity is a basterdised version of Judaism, so it will have the same base - which means it shares things with Judaism. They have similarities that cannot be removed, so a Jewish text is very likely to speak of things that a shoot-off religion will also speak of. It's very simple logic that requires no assumptions.

yes but the telephone game is not how oral tradition works.

Even if it doesn't happen right away, the evolution of language is going to change something somewhere along the line.
For example, in english, the phrase "The exception that proves the rule" is utter nonsense. Exceptions DISprove rules. But when the phrase came into use, the word "prove" meant "to test". "The exception that tests the rule" makes much more sense.

Language evolution is unavoidable.
Even if you think that is accounted for, you still haven't given a reasonable way to prove that the oral traditions carried forwards were entirely reliable.

Also,
Quote
in oral tradition , groups of people would sit and listen as one or groups of other recounted the history they memorized. if anyone disagreed they would speak up.
Doesn't this in and of itself provide a method for change to creep in? Nevermind how easy it is for a small change to go unnoticed by even large groups.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: velkyn on July 08, 2011, 01:22:11 PM
i have no idea if a roman emporer did miracles. probably a miracle to become an emperor. all this is saying however is that her are non-biblical sources that same similar things as the bible, around about the time of the bible being written. that is all this is saying. external proof of what the bible says.
Nice attempt to dodge.  No, that’s not all this is saying. Tacitus wrote that Vespasian performed miracles.  You know what kind?  He healed people. http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/tac/h04080.htm Do you believe that roman emperors could do miracles just like your supposed “messiah”?  if you do, then what makes JC special in anyway?  Why do you think that this religion is the only right one?

And please do answer this: why did no one notice the cruxifiction, or the sun darkening, or the exodus, or the massive gatherings of thousands of people in an occupied country, or any one raising from the dead, or people being healed?
Quote
yes you do run into the problem of should you belive the rat in jail who lied about something else? dunno. examine the motives. what motive did the non-biblical sources have for writing what they wrote? was it to make Jesus and the bible sound better? nope.... and often to make Jesus sound worse.
Yep, examine those motives, JD.  What are they? In the forgery of Josephus’ work, we certainly see the motive there.  To lie about something in a desperate attempt to give more validity to something that has no evidence to support it.    In that we have no mention of Jesus Christ in those external sources you claimed did, they have no motive.  We do see mentions of Christians.  If this proves your god, then it also proves the existence of ever other god whose followers are mentioned in print. 

Oh and for God being aginast tests?
Quote
“In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse—your whole nation—because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not drop their fruit before it is ripe,” says the LORD Almighty. 12 “Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land,” says the LORD Almighty.
Same with Gideon, same with Thomas. all tests
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: jdcpe17 on July 08, 2011, 01:31:31 PM
Sure, but ive answered this many times on my briefy appearance on this forum. God will answer your prayers if they are to His Glory. If they are some sort of worldly gain for you, then probably not.

Praying for an amputee's limbs to be restored would both glorify the god who granted the prayer, and not be for personal world gain.  Your "answer" does not adequately address the question.

God could care less about any test you give Him, and the bible even reads about it being wrong to test God at all. That is just how it is. Now, if you choose not to believe in the Bible, thats your choice and nothing i said matters.

So according to you, God chooses to fail a test of his existence because he doesn't care about it.  Okay.

As long as we both agree that there is no god who cares whether or not people believe in its existence, I think we'll get along splendidly.

i like the word splendidly.....
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Avatar Of Belial on July 08, 2011, 01:41:06 PM
all this is saying however is that her are non-biblical sources that same similar things as the bible, around about the time of the bible being written. that is all this is saying. external proof of what the bible says.

That is not what you implied when this conversation started.

Quote
God, and by God I mean the judeo-christian God, is not limited.  Nothing is too difficult for Him to do.  He is God Almighty and can do anything.  It is just as easy for Him to heal an amputee as it is to raise someone from the dead.  The bible has testimony of several miracles which were of a greater order than healing a lost limb, so why this particular case is noteworthy to atheists I have no idea.

It is the Bible and its stories themselves which are in need of verification, SoG.  This website's question is one way of verifying them.  And they fail the test, when put to it.

Why would a real god choose to fail such a test, when it could succeed?

Actually the things the bible says happened here on earth in front of other people are written down in many other texts by non-christians. its pretty good verification.

The above implies that the verification you have would verify Christianity as a whole, or at least in large part.
When you say "all this is saying however is that her are non-biblical sources that same similar things as the bible" implies that simply some of the less/non-fanciful stuff that was essentially just talking about contemporary events would be verified. We didn't really have issue with any of that to begin with, so it points to the whole effort being pointless from the start.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Historicity on July 08, 2011, 01:48:15 PM
yes but the telephone game is not how oral tradition works.

in oral tradition , groups of people would sit and listen as one or groups of other recounted the history they memorized. if anyone disagreed they would speak up. and everyone had the same story and kept the same story. no changes.

Actually no. In oral tradition, everyone would sit and listen as one of the elders would tell a story. And nobody would question the elder. Ever.

Both wrong, I think.

I'm thinking of a 60 Minutes episode of a man who was wrongfully convicted by eyewitness testimony.  One guy at the scene kept "remembering" new details and talked to the other witnesses who started remembering them.  The convicted man was released on new evidence.  60 Minutes interviewed the man who turned the group.  He spoke tensely and quickly.  He dismissed the evidence in a fraction of a second because he knew what he saw.  He is still remembering new details.  He knows these are not false because he knows they are not false.  He felts called on specially to do justice.  He said he wanted to become a policeman and catch a lot more people that way.

Blaziken, your assumption of an elder would not work at first.  Only after there was order and tradition would there be elders who could talk down to people.

But jdpce17's idea is much worse.  Witnesses discussing stories are often persuaded to change and subsequently really have a visual memory of something they never saw.  There have been a number of studies of that.  A dissenter who insists he didn't see it would be cowed or shunned.

I had a discussion with a 9-11 Truther.  I shot down every piece of his bad physics.  He then trumped me.  What about, he asked, the flashes of light seen in sequence in the collapsing tower?  He said it was on a German film.  Like most people I have watched the clips of the towers falling again and again and there were no flashes of light.

I didn't say that.  I bailed on the discussion.  If the guy was so delusional there was no point in talking further.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Graybeard on July 08, 2011, 03:02:26 PM
I suppose if you want to exclude all oral tradition that is your choice. However it has been showen to be very accurate and used widely. For example the jewish rabbis during this time had memorized the entire torah (basically the OT).
And I suppose if you want to believe something a gullible iron age peasant with no education was reported as saying, that is your choice.   

Quote
Most people doing the super detailed and long winded arguments for and against the bible conceed that these are usable proofs of "something" that the bible mentions
I have to correct you, except where I have agreed, this is not the case.

Quote
conceding that just because they are 100 yrs old or whatever has little to no bearing on their practicality and usefulness.
Here in England, there is an oral tradition of Robin Hood stories that were later written down by some of the great authors. There are places, businesses and products named after him. The stories have been around for 900 years or so, all oral and written. BUT Robin Hood never existed...
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: screwtape on July 08, 2011, 03:32:11 PM
And, though I forget the exact one, one of those "sources" you claim also says that soem Roman emperor also did miracles.  Was he lying about that?

[wiki]Vespasian[/wiki]  It is funny.  In the wiki it describes his miracles as "propaganda", which I would agree with.  But I would say the same about jesus H.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: velkyn on July 11, 2011, 09:43:46 AM
Indeed.  I wonder if JD will come back and respond to these posts, since they checked in today.  JD, if you are feeling too overwhelmed, you can request a one on one discussion.  I would like answers to my questions and any attempts you might have to rebut the facts I've shown you. 
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: jdcpe17 on July 11, 2011, 11:37:45 AM
Indeed.  I wonder if JD will come back and respond to these posts, since they checked in today.  JD, if you are feeling too overwhelmed, you can request a one on one discussion.  I would like answers to my questions and any attempts you might have to rebut the facts I've shown you.

i continue to take up my daily quest. i am not exactly overwhelmed, more, temporarily disinterested. i responded to a few things, 10 people respond back to me. thats fine. i expect on an anti-god site that there would be far more anti-god people that pro-god people posting. i have a job, family, personal duties, and quite an array of personal hobbies and interests. as my interest in discussing these things waxes and wanes, i read or read and post.

i dont consider it my duty to answer anyones questions and actually my motives for being on this site were partially selfish - seeking answers to my own questions from anyone that might answer. this goal was not achieved unfortunately.

i may return to post again. but likely not in the near future. if you are in despirate need of answers to your questions, you can speculate as to what i may have written (some of your Surtr friends have already made attempts), or your can expand your question to include more selection than just myself, though i am such a great and envied person i can understand if you must absolutly have an answer from only myself. :)

ciao,

17

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: velkyn on July 11, 2011, 03:39:43 PM
typical.  I must be a prophetess to have so accurately guessed what one more christian will do.  Indeed, the usual last post of a theist is pretty much interchange able.  "I came on the forum.  I thought I had the one true answer and tried to claim I was the OneTrueChristian.  No one believed me and asked hard questions.  Suddenly, I needed to claim how I wasn't really interested at all and and how important something else was in my life. then I had to claim how I really did have the answers but couldn't bother to reveal them."

Applause, JD.  At least you did admit that you were intentionally being deceptive and selfish. 
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Anfauglir on July 12, 2011, 06:32:42 AM
i dont consider it my duty to answer anyones questions and actually my motives for being on this site were partially selfish - seeking answers to my own questions from anyone that might answer. this goal was not achieved unfortunately.

Did you ever consider that your questions might have been answered if you had been bothered to continue the dialogue?  Or that making it clear that you have no intention of entering into a dialogue perhaps prevented some members from offering answers that might have been of use to you?  Food for thought perhaps.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: nogodsforme on July 12, 2011, 05:21:03 PM
Hmmmmm. The arguments made for the validity of the bible are the exact same arguments made for the validity of the Quran. "Oral history is never wrong." "Why would people make this stuff up?" Etc.
 
So are both the bible and the Quran true? Or is is more likely that they are both false? :?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Benny on July 13, 2011, 10:21:27 PM
What I mean about taking care of my family is this..I am here to witness to them.  My mother is an agnostic, my sister an atheist, my brother an atheist and my father is an atheist.  Currently, I have been called to witness to them.  After this, I will go where He calls me next.
Does Jesus have you on speed dial?  No?  Then how do you know that you have been called to witness them?  How will you know where to go next?
My question stands.  I wait patiently for a reply.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Karl on July 14, 2011, 01:15:00 AM
Language evolution is unavoidable.
Very true, look at what happened to the English language in the US. And that's a relatively short period they had at their disposal. Even local dialects evolved in no time. Some of those are not understood easily by foreigners.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: screwtape on July 14, 2011, 07:45:12 AM
Some of those are not understood easily by foreigners.

Some are not easily understood by other Americans.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Avatar Of Belial on July 14, 2011, 11:04:58 AM
My question stands.  I wait patiently for a reply.

Unfourtunately, SoGgy bailed on us back in May, ten days after he registered his account. You are unlikely to get a response.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: unshinbop on November 11, 2011, 10:56:01 PM
God, and by God I mean the judeo-christian God, is not limited. 

That's our first problem, there is a whole class of Christians throughout the Catholic and Protestant denominations that call themselves "open-theist", saying God is limited in certain respects (the opposite of classical theism).  For example, God was "sorry" that he made man (Genesis 6), yet nothing in the context indicates that this language is anything other than literal.  If God knew the future infallibly, then, was he sorry he had made man before he made man?  That's what follows from infallible foreknowledge (being unlimited).   Finally, it doesn't matter if your God is not limited.  What matters is whether you can put your money where your mouth is.  If your God is not limited, what good does that information do us, if we cannot confirm it?  Your God then becomes just another in a long line of those who have claimed ominipotence but predictably failed and continued to fail the acid test.

Quote
Nothing is too difficult for Him to do.  He is God Almighty and can do anything.  It is just as easy for Him to heal an amputee as it is to raise someone from the dead. 


Can God save sinners who are too stubborn to admit that they need him?  You know, like a stubborn child who refuses to get out of the street after mom yells at him...as the car speeds toward him.  True love often VIOLATES the freewill of the loved persons to rescue them from their own stupidity.  If God can save stubborn humans who refuse to accept him by reason of their freewill, he can save everybody and there's no problem.  If human freewill gets in the way of God's salvific purpose, then God cannot do everything.  And here's one you haven't heard before:  If God can do everything, can he make a rock so heavy that he can't lift it?

Quote
The bible has testimony of several miracles which were of a greater order than healing a lost limb, so why this particular case is noteworthy to atheists I have no idea. 


Easy, because healing or not healing an amputated limb is the acid test.   And it is precisely the acid test that religion so predictably and consistently fails.

Quote
If God did heal an amputee, would you know about it? 


Not necessarily.  But if your God can do anything, then he can heal amputees publicly.  If God heals amputees privately, this truth does not benefit either side of this debate.  We can't disprove it, and you can't prove it.   In such a debate, all that counts is whether there is evidence for claims.  If you claim God can heal and amputee, you must show that he has, or explain the lack of evidence for such.  Our claim is simply that we have tested Christian claims and found them lacking.  Christians constantly talk about God's ability to heal, so the natural question, which should lay the matter to rest, is whether God has ever healed an amputee.

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Do you have a list of every amputee in the world and what happens to them?  Why do you think God wouldn't do it?  Do you think He can't do it?


I think out position as atheists is that the failure of your alleged God to pass this acid test is precisely why we say there is no god to speak of, hence, there are no "abilities" of any divine being to debate in the first place.  We could just as well say that ghosts chose not to heal amputees, and then debate whether ghosts have this ability or not.  It would be a waste of time.  Meanwhile, children are raped and politicians become more corrupt by the minute on THIS earth.  I'd say it wouldn't even matter if you won this debate.  God's ability to heal amputees is so unreliable and sporadic, if at all, that we cannot go wrong to simply ignore the entire matter and devote our attention to other things that ARE capable of a solution that will bequeath real benefits to others.

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You're going about this the wrong way, if you want to know anything about God.  You're trying to deconstruct something you don't understand.  It is literally impossible for an unbeliever to understand the bible.
 

You fundamentalists will read the same bible verse, even in the same version, and come up with contradictory interpretations.  Does John 1:13 prove the Calvinist doctrine of total inability?  Is Acts 2 a model for the modern church, or is it mere historical information about a dispensation that no longer applies?  Why would you bother telling us unbelievers that we cannot understand the bible, when the contradictions among bible fundamentalists prove that some of you find it equally impossible to understand the bible?  Why isn't the Holy Spirit opening the eyes of the incorrect fundamentalists, who in many cases have just as much bible education and prayer life and walking the straight and narrow as those who are correct?  When God hears a  Pentacostal and a Baptist pray about the meaning of Acts 2, does he just roll the dice to decide which faithful steward of his word that he will impart the correct interpretation to?

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Personally, I haven't known many atheists who have ever tried.  Most of them seem to memorize a few passgaes they think helps their arguments and that's it.  Personally I think it's fairly ignorant to judge something you don't even understand yourself.

I agree, that's why I have studied the bible for many years and know it better than most of the Christians I have debated.

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If you want to know if Jesus is real or not, put Him to the test.  With a sincere heart, pray to Him like this:

Jesus, if you do exist I want to know about it and I want to know you.  Please reveal yourself to me Jesus;  show me that you're real.

If you you do that Jesus will show you that He is real and that He is Almighty God.  Here is a word for you:

This is no test.  If we do this test, and then report back to you that we got no answer, you will insist that we weren't sincere enough, or didn't pray hard enough, or there was secret sin in our lives, etc,. etc,.  This is no "test", because everytime we get a result that doesn't match the answer YOU got, you automatically assume the test wasn't performed correctly.  Well if I pray to Zeus whether he is real, and all I get for an answer is silence...may I safely conclude that is because there is no real god Zeus to answer me in the first place?

or should I assume that Zeus is all-powerful, and maybe has higher mysterious reasons for not answering me on my schedule?

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Matthew 11:28
Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest
God bless.

That might have made sense back when Jesus was alive, but it ceased any function except as literary inspiration after he died.  Right?  Dead men do not give rest to the living, and religious frauds have been known to dupe large numbers of people for centuries, correct?

And Acts 21 proves that the originanl first-century church was prone to believing false rumors about the apostles, so that the resurrection of Jesus being a mere rumor embellished into full blown doctrine remains on the table of options, correct?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Turbo SS on November 15, 2011, 09:54:10 AM
Indeed.  I wonder if JD will come back and respond to these posts, since they checked in today.  JD, if you are feeling too overwhelmed, you can request a one on one discussion.  I would like answers to my questions and any attempts you might have to rebut the facts I've shown you.

i continue to take up my daily quest. i am not exactly overwhelmed, more, temporarily disinterested. i responded to a few things, 10 people respond back to me. thats fine. i expect on an anti-god site that there would be far more anti-god people that pro-god people posting. i have a job, family, personal duties, and quite an array of personal hobbies and interests. as my interest in discussing these things waxes and wanes, i read or read and post.

i dont consider it my duty to answer anyones questions and actually my motives for being on this site were partially selfish - seeking answers to my own questions from anyone that might answer. this goal was not achieved unfortunately.

i may return to post again. but likely not in the near future. if you are in despirate need of answers to your questions, you can speculate as to what i may have written (some of your Surtr friends have already made attempts), or your can expand your question to include more selection than just myself, though i am such a great and envied person i can understand if you must absolutly have an answer from only myself. :)

ciao,

17

And theres the surrender.  Another christian pwned by the hard questions. 
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: b2 on November 20, 2011, 01:23:00 PM
God did heal an amputee.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: One Above All on November 20, 2011, 01:27:03 PM
God did heal an amputee.

Odin did kill all ice giants.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: b2 on November 20, 2011, 01:30:50 PM
Thats nonsense, and u know it.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: One Above All on November 20, 2011, 01:32:38 PM
Thats nonsense, and u know it.

I see many amputees.
I see no ice giants.

Quod erat demonstrandum, I win.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: b2 on November 20, 2011, 01:33:28 PM
Lucifer, I find it interesting that you have "truth is powerful, and it prevails" on your sig. So you believe in absolute truth?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: One Above All on November 20, 2011, 01:34:46 PM
Lucifer, I find it interesting that you have "truth is powerful, and it prevails" on your sig. So you believe in absolute truth?

If you wish to discuss my sig, do it in another thread (one that you create for that purpose). If you do it here, it just looks like you're dodging.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: b2 on November 20, 2011, 01:35:48 PM
Dodging what? Is there a question in your past posts I missed?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: One Above All on November 20, 2011, 01:38:42 PM
Dodging what? Is there a question in your past posts I missed?

No direct question.
You say that God has healed an amputee (and therefore has no problem doing it again). I say Odin has killed an ice giant (and therefore had no problem doing it again).
There are no ice giants around, but there are amputees. So either your god is not more powerful than Odin or Odin is the true god.

Still, if you wish to ignore that, you'll still need to make another topic. This one is about God's ability (or lack thereof) to heal amputees.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: b2 on November 20, 2011, 01:41:59 PM
Christ healed the soldier in the garden after his ear was cut off. That would be healing an amputee.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: One Above All on November 20, 2011, 01:42:33 PM
Christ healed the soldier in the garden after his ear was cut off. That would be healing an amputee.

And the evidence for this would be...?
Hint: The Bible is not a historical document.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: b2 on November 20, 2011, 01:45:29 PM
And you've come to this conclusion based on????
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: b2 on November 20, 2011, 01:46:21 PM
Sorry, my bad. I sound like an Athiest. Answering a question with another question. of course it is historically accurate in many ways.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Emily on November 20, 2011, 01:49:56 PM
Christ healed the soldier in the garden after his ear was cut off. That would be healing an amputee.

Whoa, didn't see that one coming.  :-\

So, you're using the bible to back up the bible.... Can you see how stupid that is? In what way is it historically accurate. NOTE: If you use the bible to show how historically accurate the bible is then you're on the wrong forum and it wont be long until you get you ass handed to you.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: One Above All on November 20, 2011, 01:50:36 PM
Sorry, my bad. I sound like an Athiest. Answering a question with another question. of course it is historically accurate in many ways.

You didn't ask a question but, even if you had, mine was rhetorical, not to mention that you can't "sound like an Athiest". First of all, there's no such thing. There are "atheists"[1], but the only sentence that you can say to sound like one is "I don't believe in gods".
Now that we have that out of the way:
There's no evidence for what you're claiming. If you wish to posit that christian mythology is historically accurate without providing evidence, then so is Norse mythology, Greek mythology and so on. And their gods made promises that they actually kept.
 1. Lowercase "A" (unless it's the first word in a sentence) and "ei", not "ie".
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Azdgari on November 20, 2011, 01:58:43 PM
Not to mention that b2's approach demonstrates that (s)he doesn't understand the point of the site's question.

B2, does it bother you that you didn't understand the point of the site's question?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: curiousgirl on November 20, 2011, 02:09:45 PM
Sorry, my bad. I sound like an Athiest. Answering a question with another question. of course it is historically accurate in many ways.

That's nonsense (my bolding above). Prove that Adam and Eve existed, as well as the Garden of Eden, and that they were able to somehow spawn a genetically diverse population from just their gene pool. Prove the Flood, the Exodus, the miracles that Jesus performed, his Resurrection. Let me guess. You are going to point right back to the Bible. You Christians believe the Bible is God's Word. Yet you base proof of his existence partially on the Bible. Circular reasoning. 
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: blue on November 20, 2011, 02:19:34 PM
When the circular arguments come out, this graphic always seems helpful.
(http://coasm.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/break-the-cycle.jpg)

B2, hope you find this helpful and enlightening.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: b2 on November 20, 2011, 02:24:54 PM
He thank you. The 5 portico porch found recently was a significant discovery. John referred to it in his gospel. Many critics had used this illustration as a reference that the bible can not be trusted because they had never found anything other than 4 portico porches in that time in Jerusalem. The recent discovery of the 5 portico porch is a very small example of even though "experts' think the Gospel writers were not documenting historical facts, they were. I think many discoveries have proven that.

And Azdgari, no, I'm not bothered by your perception that I don't understand the point of the site's question. But thanks for your concern.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: b2 on November 20, 2011, 02:27:43 PM
Blue, tell me, how does the myth, or religion of evolution differ from your example of the Wheel of Power?
I am not saying you believe in evolution, but would like to see your comparison.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: One Above All on November 20, 2011, 02:29:17 PM
Blue, tell me, how does the myth, or religion of evolution differ from your example of the Wheel of Power?
I am not saying you believe in evolution, but would like to see your comparison.

For one, evolution is neither a religion nor a myth. It has been proven beyond reasonable doubt and does not require belief in it for it to have some sort of placebo effect.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: curiousgirl on November 20, 2011, 02:29:59 PM
*Sigh.* B2, evolution is not a religion. Evolution is based on science, which is based on careful observations and repeated experiments.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: curiousgirl on November 20, 2011, 02:39:09 PM
Definition of science from dictionary.com:

sci·ence [sahy-uhns] 
noun
2. systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.

You should try to learn more about this rather than trusting your Bible.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: naemhni on November 20, 2011, 03:05:16 PM
Blue, tell me, how does the myth, or religion of evolution differ from your example of the Wheel of Power?

Did you get a flu shot this year?  Have you ever gotten one?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Azdgari on November 20, 2011, 03:14:28 PM
And Azdgari, no, I'm not bothered by your perception that I don't understand the point of the site's question. But thanks for your concern.

If you understood the point of the question posed by the site, then you would, reasonably, have been expected to pose a response which addresses it, instead of the one you actually did.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: jaimehlers on November 20, 2011, 03:37:16 PM
So, B2 said "God did heal an amputee", a straightforward statement missing a very important thing, evidence, as in, "which amputee did God heal?"  After a short bit about Odin and ice giants, we find out that the amputee that God supposedly healed is a Roman soldier who's ear was cut off by one of the disciples.  Nothing that can be proven or demonstrated to modern skeptics in other words.  When pressed, he points to the recent discovery of a five-portico porch in the Temple ruins of Jerusalem (and other, unnamed things) to prove that it is a historical document and thus that the tale of the soldier being healed is true.  Then there's some unsupported nonsense about evolution being a myth or a religion, which is a common mistake.

B2, if I were to write a fictional story about New York City, I would naturally want to use things that actually exist in New York City in order to make a better story.  But the fact that those things are in my story doesn't prove my story to be true.  That is the argument you are making, that because things like this five-portico porch (which we only have your word on, evidence please) have been found, everything else in the Bible from that time frame is true.  Doesn't fly.

Also, kindly show us how evolution is either a myth or a religion.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: b2 on November 20, 2011, 03:41:03 PM
I agree completely with your definition of Science. You keep throwing that in everyones face, but it only serves to prove my point. Thank you by the way.

But how does evolution fit even remotely into that category? The only evolution that scientifically has been proven is micro evolution...or variations. Dogs produce other kinds of dogs, cats produce variations of cats, but a mouse doesn't produce a variation of a Giraffe. those Macro events could never be found by Darwin, ever. The missing link so to speak. However, In Genesis, God commands that the land produce animals according to their own kind. That's variation, and it is a scientific fact. Bonus!!! Science actually reveals Gods creation according to his WORD. Curious girl, **bigger sigh** need to do more studying I fear.


Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: b2 on November 20, 2011, 03:44:22 PM
Ahhhh...I see jaimehlers, you believe that it's a big hoax. How is that possible? The entire bible, made up in an effort to deceive all humanity? You give humans way to much credit. We're not that smart.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: One Above All on November 20, 2011, 03:49:10 PM
b2, I'd smite you a thousand times if I could. You are ignorant, unable to comprehend even the simplest of things and, worst of all, unwilling to learn.
You have repeatedly shown your ignorance of science in every post you've ever written. I suggest you go back to school and study before coming here again.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: b2 on November 20, 2011, 03:58:20 PM
Back to evolution, say cosmic evolution. Where in the science books does it succinctly say, the universe was created by the big bang? Most will say, they think it happened that way, or we are led to postulate it might have happened that way, but not one scientist will tell you that the creation of the universe was observed, tested and documented. So it is a belief system that you choose to adopt, because the burden of proof you expect the Christian to give for Gods creation is given a free pass on evolution. It takes more faith to believe that than to believe in the bible. Now you can believe in the Big Bang, or the cookie monster, or the lochness monster, or santa....but it is not science by sciences definition.

On the other hand, i would propose that the very meaning of the word Universe, or translated as  Uni = single  and Verse = a spoken sentence, gives an insightful meaning into the origins. And I just happen to know the sentence .....Let there be light!

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: b2 on November 20, 2011, 04:06:01 PM
Lucifer...you mean, I refuse to bend to your interpretation of what is science and what is not.  I get it...Time to whip out the I'm smarter than you are card....if that makes you feel better about yourself, be my guest. It's what you do. You like to use science when it suits your purpose. But when it refutes your position, like in evolutional claims, you begin the deception tactic...lets demean this guy and call him names because I don't have a clue.

 Nice try you devil you.....oh...sorry...he never existed did he....do you?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Emily on November 20, 2011, 04:13:03 PM
Back to evolution, say cosmic evolution. Where in the science books does it succinctly say, the universe was created by the big bang? Most will say, they think it happened that way, or we are led to postulate it might have happened that way, but not one scientist will tell you that the creation of the universe was observed, tested and documented. So it is a belief system that you choose to adopt, because the burden of proof you expect the Christian to give for Gods creation is given a free pass on evolution. It takes more faith to believe that than to believe in the bible. Now you can believe in the Big Bang, or the cookie monster, or the lochness monster, or santa....but it is not science by sciences definition.

On the other hand, i would propose that the very meaning of the word Universe, or translated as  Uni = single  and Verse = a spoken sentence, gives an insightful meaning into the origins. And I just happen to know the sentence .....Let there be light!


(my bold)
Oh please stop before you go deeper into what Kent Hovind says...
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: wright on November 20, 2011, 04:49:56 PM
Back to evolution, say cosmic evolution. Where in the science books does it succinctly say, the universe was created by the big bang? Most will say, they think it happened that way, or we are led to postulate it might have happened that way, but not one scientist will tell you that the creation of the universe was observed, tested and documented. So it is a belief system that you choose to adopt, because the burden of proof you expect the Christian to give for Gods creation is given a free pass on evolution. It takes more faith to believe that than to believe in the bible. Now you can believe in the Big Bang, or the cookie monster, or the lochness monster, or santa....but it is not science by sciences definition.

On the other hand, i would propose that the very meaning of the word Universe, or translated as  Uni = single  and Verse = a spoken sentence, gives an insightful meaning into the origins. And I just happen to know the sentence .....Let there be light!



If you want to argue the validity of evolution or the Big Bang, I suggest you start posting on one of the threads in that subforum. That would be more appropriate.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Gnu Ordure on November 20, 2011, 04:56:44 PM
b2:
Quote
On the other hand, i would propose that the very meaning of the word Universe, or translated as  Uni = single  and Verse = a spoken sentence, gives an insightful meaning into the origins. And I just happen to know the sentence .....Let there be light!

What nonsense.

The 'verse' part of 'universe' comes from the past participle, versus, of the Latin verb vertere, to turn.

Thus:

reverse = turned back
inverse = turned inside out or upside down
perverse = turned aside
converse= turned around
obverse = turned towards

and

universe = turned into one.

So nothing to do with the spoken word then.


(edit: to be accurate there is a connexion, as the word verse is derived from the same root. So universe and verse are cousins, and b2 is still wrong).
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: b2 on November 20, 2011, 05:02:59 PM
Emily, awesome. You do listen to the other side. Thanks for the mention. He would be honored.

But I guess my reply is...so what? The point is still valid.

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: b2 on November 20, 2011, 05:16:41 PM
The word UNIVERSE comes from two primitive roots: UNI, meaning 'one' and VERSA, meaning 'BODY OF WORDS'! Therefore, the Lord's entire creation is called: 'ONE BODY OF WORDS'! But with its Creator being named 'WORD,' this should not be surprising. P.S. 'Verse' also stems from another root, 'versus,' as in a court decision (i.e. Smith versus Smith) and means literally 'being turned toward'; thus making the word, UNIVERSE, also mean 'ONE BEING TURNED TOWARD."

You can slice and dice any way you see fit. One body of words...instead of a single spoken sentence. You can even say One being turned toward....but it all adds up to the same thing. And GNU Ordure is not all he is cracked up to be :-D

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Alzael on November 20, 2011, 05:36:46 PM
The word UNIVERSE comes from two primitive roots: UNI, meaning 'one' and VERSA, meaning 'BODY OF WORDS'! Therefore, the Lord's entire creation is called: 'ONE BODY OF WORDS'! But with its Creator being named 'WORD,' this should not be surprising. P.S. 'Verse' also stems from another root, 'versus,' as in a court decision (i.e. Smith versus Smith) and means literally 'being turned toward'; thus making the word, UNIVERSE, also mean 'ONE BEING TURNED TOWARD."

You can slice and dice any way you see fit. One body of words...instead of a single spoken sentence. You can even say One being turned toward....but it all adds up to the same thing. And GNU Ordure is not all he is cracked up to be :-D

From Wiki

The word universe derives from the Old French word Univers, which in turn derives from the Latin word universum.[8] The Latin word was used by Cicero and later Latin authors in many of the same senses as the modern English word is used.[9] The Latin word derives from the poetic contraction Unvorsum — first used by Lucretius in Book IV (line 262) of his De rerum natura (On the Nature of Things) — which connects un, uni (the combining form of unus', or "one") with vorsum, versum (a noun made from the perfect passive participle of vertere, meaning "something rotated, rolled, changed").[9]

 
Artistic rendition (highly exaggerated) of a Foucault pendulum showing that the Earth is not stationary, but rotates.An alternative interpretation of unvorsum is "everything rotated as one" or "everything rotated by one". In this sense, it may be considered a translation of an earlier Greek word for the universe, ????????, (periforá, "circumambulation"), originally used to describe a course of a meal, the food being carried around the circle of dinner guests.[10] This Greek word refers to celestial spheres, an early Greek model of the universe. Regarding Plato's Metaphor of the sun, Aristotle suggests that the rotation of the sphere of fixed stars inspired by the prime mover, motivates, in turn, terrestrial change via the Sun. Careful astronomical and physical measurements (such as the Foucault pendulum) are required to prove the Earth rotates on its axis.

A term for "universe" in ancient Greece was ?? ??? (tó pán, The All, Pan (mythology)). Related terms were matter, (?? ????, tó ólon, see also Hyle, lit. wood) and place (?? ?????, tó kenón).[11][12] Other synonyms for the universe among the ancient Greek philosophers included ?????? (cosmos) and ????? (meaning Nature, from which we derive the word physics).[13] The same synonyms are found in Latin authors (totum, mundus, natura)[14] and survive in modern languages, e.g., the German words Das All, Weltall, and Natur for universe. The same synonyms are found in English, such as everything (as in the theory of everything), the cosmos (as in cosmology), the world (as in the many-worlds hypothesis

online etymology dictionary

1580s, "the whole world, cosmos," from O.Fr. univers (12c.), from L. universum "the universe," noun use of neut. of adj. universus "all together," lit. "turned into one," from unus "one" (see one) + versus, pp. of vertere "to turn" (see versus). Properly a loan-translation of Gk. to holon "the universe," noun use of neut. of adj. holos "whole" (see safe (adj.)).

All experts

"Universe comes to us directly from Latin.  The Latin word 'universum' means the whole world.  It stems from the Latin ''unu' meaning one and 'versus' the past participle of 'vertere' meaning to turn.    The word 'universe' appears in Middle English in the year 1385 in Chaucer's troilus and Criseyde'.
    The English word 'universe' means the entire WORLD not 'word'."


Twit.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on November 20, 2011, 05:36:55 PM
But how does evolution fit even remotely into that category? The only evolution that scientifically has been proven is micro evolution...or variations. Dogs produce other kinds of dogs, cats produce variations of cats, but a mouse doesn't produce a variation of a Giraffe. those Macro events could never be found by Darwin, ever. The missing link so to speak. However, In Genesis, God commands that the land produce animals according to their own kind.

You're arguing a strawman's version of evolution.  Next time, try reading an actual science book, not some silly piece of creationist garbage.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Gnu Ordure on November 20, 2011, 06:02:18 PM
Quote
The word UNIVERSE comes from two primitive roots: UNI, meaning 'one' and VERSA, meaning 'BODY OF WORDS'! Therefore, the Lord's entire creation is called: 'ONE BODY OF WORDS'!
Alzael has corroborated my etymological explanation of 'universe'.

What are your sources for your preferred explanation? Which dictionaries or encyclopedias are you using?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on November 20, 2011, 06:22:55 PM
bm
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: curiousgirl on November 20, 2011, 07:15:35 PM
B2, you seem to be attempting to hide your ignorance regarding evolution by suddenly changing the subject. There certainly is fossil and DNA evidence for evolution:


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/08/0831_050831_chimp_genes.html (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/08/0831_050831_chimp_genes.html)

My bolding below:

Quote
Scientists have sequenced the genome of the chimpanzee and found that humans are 96 percent similar to the great ape species.

"Darwin wasn't just provocative in saying that we descend from the apes—he didn't go far enough," said Frans de Waal, a primate scientist at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia. "We are apes in every way, from our long arms and tailless bodies to our habits and temperament."...

Humans and chimps originate from a common ancestor...

Also, here is a link to an interactive slideshow of some important fossil evidence:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/fossil-evidence.html (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/fossil-evidence.html)

Quote

In 2004, scientists digging in the Canadian Arctic unearthed fossils of a half-fish, half-amphibian that all but confirmed paleontologists' theories about how land-dwelling tetrapods–four-limbed animals, including us–evolved from fish. It is a classic example of a transitional form, one that bridges a so-called evolutionary gap between different types of animal.

If you want to attempt to refute this, B2, you will need to provide some of your own evidence.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: curiousgirl on November 20, 2011, 07:17:42 PM
Nice try you devil you.....oh...sorry...he never existed did he....do you?

And here we go with the solipsism!  &)
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: b2 on November 20, 2011, 09:44:19 PM
sol·ip·sism? ?[sol-ip-siz-uhm]  Show IPA
noun
1. Philosophy . the theory that only the self exists, or can be proved to exist.
2. extreme preoccupation with and indulgence of one's feelings, desires, etc.; egoistic self-absorption.

You should get an A+ for using big words that have nothing to do with the conversation Curious. Bravo

CURIOUS GIRL, 

What if human and chimp DNA was even 96% homologous? What would that mean? Would it mean that humans could have 'evolved' from a common ancestor with chimps? Not at all! The amount of information in the 3 billion base pairs in the DNA in every human cell has been estimated to be equivalent to that in 1,000 books of encyclopedia size [6]. If humans were 'only' 4% different this still amounts to 120 million base pairs, equivalent to approximately 12 million words, or 40 large books of information. This is surely an impossible barrier for mutations (random changes) to cross [7].

Does a high degree of similarity mean that two DNA sequences have the same meaning or function? No, not necessarily. Compare the following sentences:

There are many scientists today who question the evolutionary paradigm and its atheistic philosophical implications.

There are not many scientists today who question the evolutionary paradigm and its atheistic philosophical implications.

These sentences have 97% homology and yet have almost opposite meanings! There is a strong analogy here to the way in which large DNA sequences can be turned on or off by relatively small control sequences.

The DNA similarity data does NOT quite mean what the evolutionary popularizers claim!

Found it over at Christian net ....I will be glad to provide the link. We can play ping pong all day if you'd like. National Geographic? Nova, PBS, long standing Atheist slanted publications.

Your link is just another in a long line of "could be, might be, we think etc...sounds like a belief system...Proves nothing.

Alzael, wow...I've been promoted to twit. Cmon, you guys are cutting and pasting like me. What about the part that says, turned into one, from one....HE seems to always be in there somewhere doesn't HE.
Gnu Ordure: Id I were Alzael, i'd charge you for doing all your work for you.

Ambassador Pony. bm? best mate? best material? bravo man!!  I see you are efficient. A gentleman and a scholar!!

Aaron 123, Exactly. is there anything more than a strawman's version of that crap? Actual science books. are you serious? They are completely vague and have nothing to offer but Atheistic theories/religious views or beliefs about evolution. lets see class....something came from nothing. No really...it did...just close your eyes and try to imagine it...cmon. Scientists spend years and years looking at this stuff and that's what we get? hey, it's your dollar. At least we have the common courtesy to tell our kids the truth, that God created the universe. Not....we don't know. man sure has come a long way in your world view. Sorry, You apes  have come a long way.....


Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Emily on November 20, 2011, 10:04:31 PM
Wow, b2. Just wow

...that God created the universe. Not....we don't know. man sure has come a long way in your world view. Sorry, You apes  have come a long way.....


ignore the rest. Prove your god created the universe. Prove it. Either prove it or shut the fuck up.

What's so wrong with saying that we don't know. The best we are doing by saying 'I Don't Know' is giving our kids a sense that there might be a natural reason. All you are doing is giving them a false sense of hope.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: jetson on November 20, 2011, 10:23:05 PM
(snip)   Sorry, You apes  have come a long way.....

b2 - you need to go read the forum rules right now.  You are starting off on the wrong foot, and our long standing members don't deserve this trolling you are doing.  You need to back up each of your claims with some kind of evidence.  I'm not in the mood to hold your hand when you start off with crap like this.

Jetson
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Aaron123 on November 20, 2011, 10:42:14 PM
Aaron 123, Exactly. is there anything more than a strawman's version of that crap? Actual science books. are you serious?

Yes, I'm serious about looking up actual science books.  Dead fucking serious.

Dead fucking serious


Quote
They are completely vague and have nothing to offer but Atheistic theories/religious views or beliefs about evolution.

Strawmen.


Quote
lets see class....something came from nothing. No really...it did...just close your eyes and try to imagine it...cmon. Scientists spend years and years looking at this stuff and that's what we get? hey, it's your dollar.

First of all, this is a strawman.  Second, you're changing the subject.  The origin of the universe has nothing to do with evolution.


Quote
At least we have the common courtesy to tell our kids the truth, that God created the universe. Not....we don't know.


Saying "we don't know" is not lying.  Again; this has nothing to do with evolution.


Quote
man sure has come a long way in your world view. Sorry, You apes  have come a long way.....

Seriously, how old are you?  You're either very young or very immature if you're resorting to name-calling.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: curiousgirl on November 20, 2011, 11:43:32 PM
sol·ip·sism? ?[sol-ip-siz-uhm]  Show IPA
noun
1. Philosophy . the theory that only the self exists, or can be proved to exist.
2. extreme preoccupation with and indulgence of one's feelings, desires, etc.; egoistic self-absorption.

You should get an A+ for using big words that have nothing to do with the conversation Curious. Bravo


LOL. You obviously have NO CLUE that you fell into the intellectual pit of solipsism when you said this to Lucifer: " he never existed did he....do you?"

CURIOUS GIRL, 

What if human and chimp DNA was even 96% homologous? What would that mean? Would it mean that humans could have 'evolved' from a common ancestor with chimps? Not at all! The amount of information in the 3 billion base pairs in the DNA in every human cell has been estimated to be equivalent to that in 1,000 books of encyclopedia size [6]. If humans were 'only' 4% different this still amounts to 120 million base pairs, equivalent to approximately 12 million words, or 40 large books of information. This is surely an impossible barrier for mutations (random changes) to cross [7].

Does a high degree of similarity mean that two DNA sequences have the same meaning or function? No, not necessarily. Compare the following sentences:

There are many scientists today who question the evolutionary paradigm and its atheistic philosophical implications.

There are not many scientists today who question the evolutionary paradigm and its atheistic philosophical implications.

These sentences have 97% homology and yet have almost opposite meanings! There is a strong analogy here to the way in which large DNA sequences can be turned on or off by relatively small control sequences.

The DNA similarity data does NOT quite mean what the evolutionary popularizers claim!

Found it over at Christian net ....

How entertaining. Comparing sentences to DNA? Simply ignorant. You would have to assume that the same rules for the English language apply to biochemistry. Utterly ridiculous.

That does not refute DNA evidence, which is commonly accepted by the scientific community. I am betting that those at "Christian net" have as poor of a grasp of the concept of evolution as you do.

You said nothing about the fossils I mentioned. I guess you feel like if you pretend the evidence is not there, then you can go on being willfully ignorant.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Ambassador Pony on November 21, 2011, 06:24:15 AM
Quote
Ambassador Pony. bm? best mate? best material? bravo man!!  I see you are efficient. A gentleman and a scholar!!

bm stands for Bookmark. It is used on forums to mark a page so it comes up when you click "show replies to your posts".

You could have asked. But, you didn't.

Have you been drinking? Are you upset about something, unrelated to the discussions on this board? Just PM me (that means private message) the context.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Gnu Ordure on November 21, 2011, 06:52:29 AM
b2:
Quote
Gnu Ordure: Id I were Alzael, i'd charge you for doing all your work for you.

And you dodge my entire post, which was a simple request for the source of your information.

You're wasting my time.

Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Alzael on November 21, 2011, 08:26:14 AM
Alzael, wow...I've been promoted to twit. Cmon, you guys are cutting and pasting like me. What about the part that says, turned into one, from one....HE seems to always be in there somewhere doesn't HE.

What about it? It's not what you defined the word as meaning in your previous set of rambling. So you're trying to imply that your god was turned into the universe, hence the word universe clearly refers to god.

With bang-up, new wave thinking like that it's a wonder that you haven't fulfilled Gnu's claims of backing yourself up yet.

I'm guessing English isn't your first language is it?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: jaimehlers on November 21, 2011, 10:08:32 AM
Ahhhh...I see jaimehlers, you believe that it's a big hoax. How is that possible? The entire bible, made up in an effort to deceive all humanity? You give humans way to much credit. We're not that smart.
Read what I said and don't make assumptions.  I never said I thought it was a big hoax.  The fact that someone earnestly or fervently believes in something that isn't true does not make it true.

Regarding your later 'points' about evolution, I must point out that your idea that evolution predicts that a mouse will suddenly produce a giraffe-like animal out of nowhere is a strawman.  It is an idea you made up, not one that is actually found anywhere in evolutionary theory.  What evolutionary theory actually says is that a population will adapt to its environment, and will change based on pressures in that environment.  These changes will occur over many generations, so you will never see a mouse one generation and a tiny giraffe the next.  But you might see a long progression of mouse generations with longer and longer necks, and longer and longer legs.

Science is based around examining the evidence, coming to conclusions based on it, and being willing to revisit those conclusions if further evidence invalidates them.  Whereas your religious beliefs are based on a literary allusion, and not even a very good one.  Come on, seriously, universe = "one spoken sentence"?  Learn to comprehend etymology before you make statements like that.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=universe (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=universe)

The Roman roots of universe (universus) are unus, one, and versus, turned.  As others have pointed out, "turned into one".

Your statements about it taking 'faith' to 'believe' in science are nothing more than an attempt to make your own belief system look more reasonable, which is an utter failure.  Science does not depend on faith.  Science depends on observations, and deductions from those observations.  When new observations are made, science must necessarily change the deductions to incorporate the new observations.

You can talk about how you refuse to bend to any other interpretation of science besides your own.  If that is the case, then I truly pity you, because you sound like King Cnut, commanding the tides to stop coming in because you do not want to get your feet wet.  If you aren't willing to listen to anyone else, why are you here?
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Gnu Ordure on November 21, 2011, 04:03:49 PM
This issue of the etymology of universe is trivial, in that it doesn't form the crux of any argument going on here. Yet b2 is nevertheless apparently unable to concede a meaningless point, even when all the evidence is against him.

Which doesn't bode well for future discussions with him.

I was searching the web for examples and sources of this idea that the etymology of universe is uni and verse, i.ie. a single spoken word or sentence. Unsurprisingly, the only three or four examples I found were on creationist websites, including one of Kent Hovind's (so kudos to Emily for spotting that one). The only one which cites a reference is interesting, because he cites the same reference as Alzael, the Online Etymology Dictionary. How can this be? How can the same dictionary support two contradictory positions?

This is the quote (http://creationliberty.com/articles/bigbang.php):
Quote
Remember, the word "universe" is literally translated from the latin as "a single spoken sentence."

(See 'uni' & 'verse', Online Etymology Dictionary [www.etymonline.com] 

See what he did there? Instead of referring his readers to the single entry for universe, he refers them to two entries, the prefix uni-and another English word. As if the word universe was originally formed from two English words, which of course it wasn't.

So he's either ignorant of how etymology works, or he's being dishonest.

Tough call.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Avatar Of Belial on November 21, 2011, 04:31:51 PM
Dogs produce other kinds of dogs, cats produce variations of cats, but a mouse doesn't produce a variation of a Giraffe. those Macro events could never be found by Darwin, ever. The missing link so to speak.

I'm going to give you a hint, kid. If your understanding of evolution is anything similar to Pokemon - it can safely be said you don't understand what the fuck you're talking about.

Back to evolution, say cosmic evolution. Where in the science books does it succinctly say, the universe was created by the big bang?

Here's another hint: If you think Scientific evolution (the Theory of Evolution) talks about anything other than evolution (in the biological sense; the ongoing changes to species over the course of generations: ie, not astronomy) - it can safely be said you don't understand what the fuck you're talking about.

On the other hand, i would propose that the very meaning of the word Universe, or translated as  Uni = single  and Verse = a spoken sentence, gives an insightful meaning into the origins. And I just happen to know the sentence .....Let there be light!

Even if you hadn't been demonstrably wrong in this assumption, why should this matter? What we call the item in question does not change what it is. We call many things by wierd names.

For example: Is a mushroom a room to be filled with mush; or is it a type of fungus?

...

If you say it's the former - it can safely be said you don't understand what the fuck you're talking about.

sol·ip·sism? ?[sol-ip-siz-uhm]  Show IPA
noun
1. Philosophy . the theory that only the self exists, or can be proved to exist.
2. extreme preoccupation with and indulgence of one's feelings, desires, etc.; egoistic self-absorption.

You should get an A+ for using big words that have nothing to do with the conversation Curious. Bravo

Erm... both definitions are perfect here.
By asking if the other person exists (and therefore implicitly asking for proof) as you did in what was quoted of you there, you invoked definition 1. You also are displaying SPAG (self-projection as God) in many places, which perfectly encompasses definition 2.

Now, I can see how you might ignore definition 2, but you couldn't even get definition 1? Since your reading comprehension is clearly lacking, then I think (altogether now) it can safely be said you don't understand what the fuck you're talking about.


What if human and chimp DNA was even 96% homologous? What would that mean? Would it mean that humans could have 'evolved' from a common ancestor with chimps? Not at all! The amount of information in the 3 billion base pairs in the DNA in every human cell has been estimated to be equivalent to that in 1,000 books of encyclopedia size [6]. If humans were 'only' 4% different this still amounts to 120 million base pairs, equivalent to approximately 12 million words, or 40 large books of information. This is surely an impossible barrier for mutations (random changes) to cross [7].

Does a high degree of similarity mean that two DNA sequences have the same meaning or function? No, not necessarily. Compare the following sentences:

There are many scientists today who question the evolutionary paradigm and its atheistic philosophical implications.

There are not many scientists today who question the evolutionary paradigm and its atheistic philosophical implications.

These sentences have 97% homology and yet have almost opposite meanings! There is a strong analogy here to the way in which large DNA sequences can be turned on or off by relatively small control sequences.

Your example here is actually a very good demonstration of what we're talking about. Even the smallest of changes (in DNA or individual words) with a large base to work with (the entire DNA sequence or an entire sentence) can result in massive changes in "meaning" (humans/chimps or opposite linguistic meanings).

As for "barriers" to cross: I think you're underestimating at least the length of time needed for a major change (usually measured in millions of years). For that matter, you don't even speculate on the rate that mutations occur at. It is in fact, this very reckless disregard for inquiry (as in when you looked down on the phrase "I don't know") that tells me that it can safely be said you don't understand what the fuck you're talking about.

Ambassador Pony. bm? best mate? best material? bravo man!!  I see you are efficient. A gentleman and a scholar!!

I was considering being nice while explaining that "bm" in this context means "bookmark", but then I realized being nice would prevent me from ending all my sections with: it can safely be said you don't understand what the fuck you're talking about.

lets see class....something came from nothing. No really...it did...just close your eyes and try to imagine it...cmon.

Hoo boy... just like the evolution mistake above, if your understanding of the Big Bang Theory is anything like an infant's understanding of a Jack in the Box, then it can safely be... just... y'know what? I give up. You're a lost cause.

You just make so many mistakes and misrepresentations of your opponent. If we were to liken it to boxing, you'd be the guy attacking the ref while we're waving at you and saying "Hey, buddy! Over here!" You really don't know what you're talking about. You attack concepts we don't hold, misrepresent what we say, and then claim you've beaten us. I mean, we can do that too:

"Hey guys! I just beat Mike Tyson in a boxing match!"
"Erm, no - that was b2, wearing a Mike Tyson holloween mask and punching the ref..."[1]
"Exactly; I beat Mike Tyson!"

:/
 1. I hearby vote that the "strawman fallacy" should be renamed the "b2 fallacy".
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: nogodsforme on November 21, 2011, 05:17:06 PM
Sigh. Here we go again. See, riley?

The reason we or anyone else on the planet thinks that the Theory of Evolution is valid is because 1) it has held up under a century of rigorous testing and 2) it works in application and 3) it leads to accurate predictions. It has nothing to do with god or atheism. It is plain scientific fact. If you have evidence that, after 150 years of testing and experimentation, actually counteracts the TOE, bring it on and collect your Nobel Prize. Scientists all over the world are waiting.

By applying the theory, we have invented entire new fields of study like biogeography and forensics and genetics; we have been able to develop vaccines to combat diseases as they evolve resistant strains. We have not only explained the existence of certain fossils, but have accurately predicted what kind of fossils are missing and where on the planet to look for them. (And we have found them where the theory said they were to be found.)

In addition, the theory predicted the existence of genes and DNA so that scientists could look for and discover them. The things that the theory says can't happen (like a cat turning into a snake or a bird turning into a fish) don't happen. And the things that the theory says happened have evidence to back it up.

For example, the theory says that organisms evolve from simple to more complex life forms to adapt to changing environmental conditions. So you never see early mammal fossils that are older than early reptile fossils because simple egg-layers like reptiles predate more complex mammals that bear live young. You find the early spore-producing ferns in existence before more complex pollen-producing seed plants appear.  And you can use info from different fields, like geology, to check your work.

Again, it does not matter what you believe. You can still have a flu shot.  The science works no matter what religion you believe in. If you want to insist that mammals and reptiles and plants were created all at once you have to deal with the century of evidence that says different.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: curiousgirl on November 21, 2011, 05:28:06 PM
I just wanted to point out why I think the DNA-sentence analogy fails. I am quoting from page 177 of a book called The Evolution of Human Language: scenarios, principles, and cultural dynamics by Wolfgang Wildgen. The book is viewable on Google books.

http://books.google.com/books?id=jYawnblfi0wC&lpg=PA177&ots=gwxMntZAwd&dq=dna%20language%20analogy%20misleading&pg=PA177#v=onepage&q=dna%20language%20analogy%20misleading&f=false

Quote
Words and sentences of a language represent something; they have a referential or a functional meaning. This cannot be said for molecules in the DNA. Even if their control over the production of specific proteins and the role of these proteins is interpreted as "meaning," the problem remains, as large parts of the sequence do not control the anatomy or physiology of the animal in question, i.e., they have no "meaning"....

Typical for base-sequences are long repetitions of the same base; although reduplication of syllables is possible in language, this feature constitutes a mismatch. Thus, the codons of the DNA are not similar to morphemes or words in natural languages.

Although English does not seem to be the author's first language, I think it is not difficult to understand what he is saying. Unlike meaningful sentences, there are parts of DNA that do not seem to have what we would call meaning.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: Historicity on November 21, 2011, 05:51:08 PM
By applying the theory, we have invented...

... insulin and penicillin. 

Animal testing started in the late 19th century.  It assumes that mammals, being closer to humans evolutionarily, will have much the same biochemistry.  To find out what the human pancreas does, in 1889 Oscar Minkowski and Joseph von Mering operated on a dog and took out the mysterious organ.  The side effect was the dogs got diabetes.  Back in 1869 Paul Langerhans had speculated that the pancreas was producing some unknown chemical he named as "insulin."  It took till 1921 when Nicolae Paulescu isolated it and tested it on a diabetic dog, stopping the symptoms.

The Nobel Prize for it was awarded to 2 Canadians in 1923 even tho they were 8 months later and Paulescu had a patent on his process. 


In 1939 Rene Dubos proposed that since bacteria had been around for millions of years[1] the theory of evolution implied that they would develop predators to feed on them.  So looking for a natural antibiotic he found gramicidin which could be used against gangrene but only topically.

Alexander Fleming then did a double take and declared he had found one of those what-do-you-call-its in 1928 and had named it penicillin.  Other people immediately made the crucial experiments (during the Blitz no less!) and sent the results to America where Americans simply made a big version of their equipment to start processing it.  Fleming flew to America to get in a photo-op and crowed on both sides of the Atlantic what a genius he was.

But it was Dubos working straight from the theory of evolution who started the ball rolling.

Dubos later warned that evolution would mean that the antibiotics would lose their effectiveness as bacteria out-evolved them.
 1. In the 1930 edition of History of Mankind H.G.Wells summarized the current research on the age of the Earth.  The extreme outside number at that time was 800 million years. Most scientists thought it was less.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: jtp56 on November 21, 2011, 05:59:41 PM
Sigh. Here we go again. See, riley?

The reason we or anyone else on the planet thinks that the Theory of Evolution is valid is because 1) it has held up under a century of rigorous testing and 2) it works in application and 3) it leads to accurate predictions. It has nothing to do with god or atheism. It is plain scientific fact. If you have evidence that, after 150 years of testing and experimentation, actually counteracts the TOE, bring it on and collect your Nobel Prize. Scientists all over the world are waiting.

By applying the theory, we have invented entire new fields of study like biogeography and forensics and genetics; we have been able to develop vaccines to combat diseases as they evolve resistant strains. We have not only explained the existence of certain fossils, but have accurately predicted what kind of fossils are missing and where on the planet to look for them. (And we have found them where the theory said they were to be found.)

In addition, the theory predicted the existence of genes and DNA so that scientists could look for and discover them. The things that the theory says can't happen (like a cat turning into a snake or a bird turning into a fish) don't happen. And the things that the theory says happened have evidence to back it up.

For example, the theory says that organisms evolve from simple to more complex life forms to adapt to changing environmental conditions. So you never see early mammal fossils that are older than early reptile fossils because simple egg-layers like reptiles predate more complex mammals that bear live young. You find the early spore-producing ferns in existence before more complex pollen-producing seed plants appear.  And you can use info from different fields, like geology, to check your work.

Again, it does not matter what you believe. You can still have a flu shot.  The science works no matter what religion you believe in. If you want to insist that mammals and reptiles and plants were created all at once you have to deal with the century of evidence that says different.

What "rigorous" tests?  What new species has formed/evolved in the last 100 years?  Name one!  Come on you guys!  Bacteria (still bacteria) have become more resistant?  Wow, that nails it.

What has been observed is the argument creationists use to explain how all the "kinds" of animals fit on the arc.  There was no Golden Retriever breed in the 1700s, the breed was bred from guess what?  Monkeys?  No.  Dogs!

Applied how?  How are we applying evolution?  I know we are genetically engineering seed crops, but, genetically engineered corn is still corn.  It has nothing to do with evolution. 

The Theory of Evolution is now "scientific fact"?  You need to learn the language of science and study more, you have fallen into the kool-aid vat. 

What testing experiments in the last 150 years support evolution?  Name one please!  In fact, all experiments to "prove" evolution have been abysmal failures.  Miller experiment (abiogenesis really), fruit fly (the most experimented on animal) to name two off the top of my head.

The fossil record!, come on, even your guys can't agree on how it was even formed or how much original material was present and in what form to even accurately date anything.

And from this non-consensus you blather on about "early mammal fossils that are older than early reptile fossils because simple egg-layers like reptiles predate" blah, blah, blah.

Today's scientists are calling in kind mutations proof of evolution.  "This mechanism (mutations)was present when" blah, blah blah...viola, out popped a new species.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: jtp56 on November 21, 2011, 06:03:58 PM
By applying the theory, we have invented...

... insulin and penicillin. 

Animal testing started in the late 19th century.  It assumes that mammals, being closer to humans evolutionarily, will have much the same biochemistry.  To find out what the human pancreas does, in 1889 Oscar Minkowski and Joseph von Mering operated on a dog and took out the mysterious organ.  The side effect was the dogs got diabetes.  Back in 1869 Paul Langerhans had speculated that the pancreas was producing some unknown chemical he named as "insulin."  It took till 1921 when Nicolae Paulescu isolated it and tested it on a diabetic dog, stopping the symptoms.

The Nobel Prize for it was awarded to 2 Canadians in 1923 even tho they were 8 months later and Paulescu had a patent on his process. 


In 1939 Rene Dubos proposed that since bacteria had been around for millions of years[1] the theory of evolution implied that they would develop predators to feed on them.  So looking for a natural antibiotic he found gramicidin which could be used against gangrene but only topically.

Alexander Fleming then did a double take and declared he had found one of those what-do-you-call-its in 1928 and had named it penicillin.  Other people immediately made the crucial experiments (during the Blitz no less!) and sent the results to America where Americans simply made a big version of their equipment to start processing it.  Fleming flew to America to get in a photo-op and crowed on both sides of the Atlantic what a genius he was.

But it was Dubos working straight from the theory of evolution who started the ball rolling.

Dubos later warned that evolution would mean that the antibiotics would lose their effectiveness as bacteria out-evolved them.
 1. In the 1930 edition of History of Mankind H.G.Wells summarized the current research on the age of the Earth.  The extreme outside number at that time was 800 million years. Most scientists thought it was less.

Penicillin was discovered by accident ("it just flew in the window").  It didn't evolve, it was around like everything else.  And this proves evolution how?  We're looking at putting a pigs heart into humans - and this proves evolution how? 
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: 12 Monkeys on November 21, 2011, 07:24:19 PM
jtp56

 You are plainly an idiot
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: curiousgirl on November 21, 2011, 08:59:04 PM
Notice how jtp conveniently ignores the link to fossil evidence that I provided earlier.
Title: Re: God does heal amputees
Post by: b2 on November 21, 2011, 09:36:21 PM