whywontgodhealamputees.com

Community Zone => Testimonials => Topic started by: SOI on March 16, 2011, 12:48:01 PM

Title: Me
Post by: SOI on March 16, 2011, 12:48:01 PM
I was directed here to give my testimonial (laughs). No I am not laughing at you. I am laughing at the entire concept.


I believe in YHWH. I believe that Jesus is the Son of the Living God. I believe that he is not the second head of the trinity. I believe in the destruction (by fire/non existent anymoooore) of non-believers, and not an eternal hell.

I believe that by this "admittance (laughs)" that I have opened up a pandora's box for questioning or poking holes in my beliefs. But, whatever. Lol.



On a side note. Who wins the tournament?
Title: Re: Me
Post by: Aaron123 on March 16, 2011, 12:53:38 PM
I was directed here to give my testimonial (laughs). No I am not laughing at you. I am laughing at the entire concept.


I believe in YHWH. I believe that Jesus is the Son of the Living God. I believe that he is not the second head of the trinity. I believe in the destruction (by fire/non existent anymoooore) of non-believers, and not an eternal hell.

I believe that by this "admittance (laughs)" that I have opened up a pandora's box for questioning or poking holes in my beliefs. But, whatever. Lol.



On a side note. Who wins the tournament?


1)  Where's the testimonial?

2) Why the condensing attitude?  Isn't your Jesus all about "Judge Not..." and "Love Thy Enemy"?
Title: Re: Me
Post by: frofrodajimmyboy on March 16, 2011, 01:01:43 PM
I was directed here to give my testimonial (laughs). No I am not laughing at you. I am laughing at the entire concept.

How is the concept funny?  Don't you think it's useful for people to understand where your viewpoint in a debate forum? 
Title: Re: Me
Post by: SOI on March 16, 2011, 01:06:40 PM
I was directed here to give my testimonial (laughs). No I am not laughing at you. I am laughing at the entire concept.


I believe in YHWH. I believe that Jesus is the Son of the Living God. I believe that he is not the second head of the trinity. I believe in the destruction (by fire/non existent anymoooore) of non-believers, and not an eternal hell.

I believe that by this "admittance (laughs)" that I have opened up a pandora's box for questioning or poking holes in my beliefs. But, whatever. Lol.



On a side note. Who wins the tournament?


1)  Where's the testimonial?

2) Why the condensing attitude?  Isn't your Jesus all about "Judge Not..." and "Love Thy Enemy"?



Okay, tell me what the testimonial needs to intel and I will include it.
Title: Re: Me
Post by: SOI on March 16, 2011, 01:08:07 PM
I was directed here to give my testimonial (laughs). No I am not laughing at you. I am laughing at the entire concept.

How is the concept funny?  Don't you think it's useful for people to understand where your viewpoint in a debate forum?




Yes it is useful. But you guys/girls will not use it for any good. You will all use it to tear me apart.
Title: Re: Me
Post by: velkyn on March 16, 2011, 01:09:50 PM
well, SOI, you are like every other Christian who has come here, with your own version of what God "really" meant.  And each of you has no more evidence than the next that your version is the right one or that your god even exists. 
Title: Re: Me
Post by: Aaron123 on March 16, 2011, 01:10:56 PM
Quote
Okay, tell me what the testimonial needs to intel and I will include it.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,15726.0.html (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,15726.0.html)

This section is for members to post details of the personal experiences that led them to or away from a theistic belief.


Quote
Yes it is useful. But you guys/girls will not use it for any good. You will all use it to tear me apart.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,15726.0.html (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,15726.0.html)

Any testimony added to this section is considered open to debate and challenge from other members.


So... talk.
Title: Re: Me
Post by: Vivisectus on March 16, 2011, 01:12:50 PM
I'm a positive Atheist. I have seen no reason to assume God exists, so I do not assume he exists.

Why do you believe what you believe?
Title: Re: Me
Post by: Ambassador Pony on March 16, 2011, 01:20:15 PM
Entail.

Title: Re: Me
Post by: Hatter23 on March 16, 2011, 01:21:51 PM
I was directed here to give my testimonial (laughs). No I am not laughing at you. I am laughing at the entire concept.

How is the concept funny?  Don't you think it's useful for people to understand where your viewpoint in a debate forum?




Yes it is useful. But you guys/girls will not use it for any good. You will all use it to tear me apart.

Yes, people make claims all the time in science. They are expected to not have those claims easily torn apart by contrary evidence. It is a way of determining the true from the false.

Look at the historical claims of "spotaneous generation" however, tests were done to show that it was false. The tests were done in a controlled fashion to make the argument of changing the opinion of thousands of people in the scientific community at the time.  One solidly constructed argument changed the opinions of thousands of people then, affecting the course of history. If someone came forth these days with the theory of "spontaneous generation" they would be verbally torn apart., unless they constructed an argument that was difficult to tear apart.

This is the way of thing when you have an audience that is interested in facts. Changes back and forth happen all the time when it comes to history when new archeological evidence is discovered.

Title: Re: Me
Post by: frofrodajimmyboy on March 16, 2011, 01:23:33 PM
Yes it is useful. But you guys/girls will not use it for any good. You will all use it to tear me apart.



Well, it's exceedingly clear that you're insecure about your beliefs.  My question is that if you have no intention of explaining your beliefs and are entirely opposed to any form of discussion with the members here, what was the point of joining these forums?  You, by your own admission, aren't at all interested in the aim of this forum.  The only purpose you could possibly serve here is to bother everyone; is "troll until banned" your plan here?
Yes it is useful. But you guys/girls will not use it for any good. You will all use it to tear me apart.
Title: Re: Me
Post by: SOI on March 16, 2011, 01:24:22 PM
I'm a positive Atheist. I have seen no reason to assume God exists, so I do not assume he exists.

Why do you believe what you believe?




I could go on about supernaturals in my life, such has clouds,the sun, and moon.

I could tell you about what I deem miracles, such has I shouldn't be alive, everything had to work perfectly for it to work out. or things are happening all the time.

But if any of you are honest, you won't believe me if I told you.

I Believed before I saw, and my Father rewarded me with the early rains.
Title: Re: Me
Post by: velkyn on March 16, 2011, 01:28:38 PM
all religions claim that their particular gods created the universe.  Again, nothing new. 
Title: Re: Me
Post by: SOI on March 16, 2011, 01:29:07 PM
Yes it is useful. But you guys/girls will not use it for any good. You will all use it to tear me apart.



Well, it's exceedingly clear that you're insecure about your beliefs.  My question is that if you have no intention of explaining your beliefs and are entirely opposed to any form of discussion with the members here, what was the point of joining these forums?  You, by your own admission, aren't at all interested in the aim of this forum.  The only purpose you could possibly serve here is to bother everyone; is "troll until banned" your plan here?
Yes it is useful. But you guys/girls will not use it for any good. You will all use it to tear me apart.



So this is not the motives of your heart, to tear me apart?

What is the aim of this forum. To have evidencial proof of a God? The Israelites had God encircling (visual) them above their heads, and they would not stop sinning and believe in Him. And you think that you are not capable of murder?

Must go to work now. Check in later.


Rock Chalk


Title: Re: Me
Post by: frofrodajimmyboy on March 16, 2011, 01:46:49 PM
So this is not the motives of your heart, to tear me apart?

While I will likely tear you apart for your constant attempts to sound like Shakespeare, I don't have any "motives of my heart".  I want to understand your point of view, explain mine, and, if applicable, reason why one of us may wish to alter their stance.  That's what this forum is for, and I simply wish to adhere to its purpose. 

Quote
What is the aim of this forum. To have evidencial proof of a God? The Israelites had God encircling (visual) them above their heads, and they would not stop sinning and believe in Him. And you think that you are not capable of murder?

The primary aim, as stated above by myself and others, on the main site, in the forum intro, the rules, etc is "to discuss the online material, Why Won’t God Heal Amputees? and God is Imaginary.  By extension, it is to discuss issues surrounding religion and the effect of religious beliefs on our society and culture.  It is not a venue for preaching or evangelism.  People who join for the purpose of evangelizing will quickly find they have overstayed their welcome."

Yes, evidence of God would fit that category, however, I don't see the point you're trying to make by bringing up that particular fairy tale.  When did I claim I was not capable of murder?  I believe EVERYONE is capable of murder, myself included, though I would only kill someone in the most extreme circumstances, such as self defense.  Again, what was your point? 
Title: Re: Me
Post by: One Above All on March 16, 2011, 02:10:04 PM
I could go on about supernaturals in my life, such has clouds,the sun, and moon.

If steam, a giant ball of fire[1] and a rock are supernatural to you, you are still living in around 5000 BC

I could tell you about what I deem miracles, such has I shouldn't be alive, everything had to work perfectly for it to work out. or things are happening all the time.

Miracle: Something supernatural. Not something extremely unlikely
The odds of you being alive are the same as every other human

As a better example: Grab 1000 decks of cards. Pick a card. The odds of you picking that exact card are 1/52000. It's extremely unlikely. Is that a miracle?
 1. This is an extremely simplified version of what the sun is. It is slightly inaccurate but applies for my point
Title: Re: Me
Post by: Hatter23 on March 16, 2011, 02:23:34 PM
I'm a positive Atheist. I have seen no reason to assume God exists, so I do not assume he exists.

Why do you believe what you believe?




I could go on about supernaturals in my life, such has clouds,the sun, and moon.



I could tell you about what I deem miracles, such has I shouldn't be alive, everything had to work perfectly for it to work out. or things are happening all the time.

But if any of you are honest, you won't believe me if I told you.

I Believed before I saw, and my Father rewarded me with the early rains.

The Sun is Natural, it is one atomic furnace amongst countelss trillions. The Moon is a chunk of rock...it is no more supernatural than Australia. Clouds are water vapor.

and that last sentence? Are you trying to sound like some 1950s movie indian?
Title: Re: Me
Post by: Ambassador Pony on March 16, 2011, 02:26:17 PM
Quote
The Israelites had God encircling (visual) them above their heads, and they would not stop sinning and believe in Him

Is this a documented fact, or is it just in the bible?
Title: Re: Me
Post by: Aaron123 on March 16, 2011, 03:13:15 PM
So this is not the motives of your heart, to tear me apart?

What is the aim of this forum. To have evidencial proof of a God? The Israelites had God encircling (visual) them above their heads, and they would not stop sinning and believe in Him. And you think that you are not capable of murder?

Must go to work now. Check in later.


Rock Chalk

If you're not going to post a testimonial, then what is the point of making a topic in this sub-fourm?
Title: Re: Me
Post by: xphobe on March 16, 2011, 03:45:50 PM
Rock Chalk

Oh please not a fellow alum.   :-[

Don't tell me... CCFC?
Title: Re: Me
Post by: screwtape on March 16, 2011, 04:08:19 PM
I suggested SOI come here and give a testimonial.  His posts were cryptic and incomplete and a lot of people had to fill in the blanks when talking with him.  I thought it would be useful for him to give a more complete run down of what he believes so we would not have to make assumptions. 

SOI, you are jamming my vibe, man.  Maybe if you weren't so...cranky people would not want to tear you apart.  Quit with the negativity and stop making people drag the answers out of you.  Here are some questions which would help increase our understanding if you answered:

- do you consider yourself xian?
- if not, how would you describe your belief?
- do you subscribe to any particular denomination?
- are you a biblical literalist?
- were you raised with these beliefs or did you come to them later in life?
- if the latter, how did you come to them?
- understanding that I have been religious and then came to believe it was all a load of rubbish, explain to me why I should believe what you believe.
- how do you know your religious ideas are correct?

That is a start.  Take it and run with it.
Title: Re: Me
Post by: SOI on March 16, 2011, 07:30:44 PM
Quote
- do you consider yourself xian?
Don't know what this is.
Quote
- if not, how would you describe your belief?
Unsure, I go to many churches. Trying to find more like me. That may sound arrogant. Church going folk are hypocritical. I am searching for true followers of Jesus' words.

Quote
- do you subscribe to any particular denomination?
No, but raised Catholic. Do not judge me by this, I have purged myself from Catholicism.

Quote
- are you a biblical literalist?
Yes and no, but mainly yes.
Man does not live off of bread and water alone, but every word that proceedeth out of God's mouth.
Micah 6:6-9 is closer to me.


Quote
- were you raised with these beliefs or did you come to them later in life?
See above. Continued learning as I got older (came closer to the truth).

Quote
- if the latter, how did you come to them?
Reading and obeying.

Quote
- understanding that I have been religious and then came to believe it was all a load of rubbish, explain to me why I should believe what you believe.
I did something very odd when reading the Gospels. I obeyed his words, truly from the heart. And guess what, it actually works.

Quote
- how do you know your religious ideas are correct?
One word that you all lack, Hope.

Sorry for the short answers, but I owe my family the rest of the evening.

I've fixed your quotes, SOI - please use the quote system, it makes it a lot easier to read and respond.
Thanks Graybeard:




Title: Re: Me
Post by: LadyLucy on March 16, 2011, 07:35:57 PM
OK, that is satisfactory.

Although, the last comment was unnecessary:

Quote
- how do you know your religious ideas are correct?
One word that you all lack, Hope.

We don't lack hope.

For example, there is hope that my baby will come out perfectly OK, despite knowing that he is healthy at the moment. (Anything could go wrong, who knows? I tend to worry a little bit, just because I am human, and that's why there's hope that everything will be OK.)

What we lack is faith.  ;)
Title: Re: Me
Post by: One Above All on March 16, 2011, 07:37:27 PM
Although, the last comment was unnecessary:

I think it's condescending BS
Title: Re: Me
Post by: enagua on March 16, 2011, 07:52:38 PM
Quote
- if not, how would you describe your belief?
Unsure, I go to many churches. Trying to find more like me. That may sound arrogant. Church going folk are hypocritical. I am searching for true followers of Jesus' words.

When I was younger I attended several Christian churches trying to understand and find "faith". As you are searching for more like yourself, for true followers of Jesus' words, what are you looking for? How do you define a true follower of Jesus?
Title: Re: Me
Post by: screwtape on March 16, 2011, 08:02:59 PM
Not a bad start.

Quote
- if not, how would you describe your belief?
Unsure, I go to many churches. Trying to find more like me. That may sound arrogant. Church going folk are hypocritical. I am searching for true followers of Jesus' words.

I don't find that arrogant, I find it S.O.P. for people.  We seek out our in-group.  It is particularly easy in this day and age with internet fora that conform to our niche views.  Unfortunately that can create a protective bubble around us, prevent us from being critical of our views and opinions.

No, but raised Catholic. Do not judge me by this, I have purged myself from Catholicism.

I grew up catholic too.  I also purged myself of it.  The difference is, I questioned the very fundamentals of it.  You seem to have kept some ideas and created your own.

Quote
- are you a biblical literalist?
Yes and no, but mainly yes.

How do you know what to take literally and what to take figuratively?  Do you allow women to teach you or to speak in church?

Quote
- understanding that I have been religious and then came to believe it was all a load of rubbish, explain to me why I should believe what you believe.
I did something very odd when reading the Gospels. I obeyed his words, truly from the heart. And guess what, it actually works.

That does not tell me why I should believe.  What do you mean "it works"? 

Quote
- how do you know your religious ideas are correct?
One word that you all lack, Hope.

I don't find this to be very charitable. I find this to be rather arrogant and mocking.  I also do not think it answers my question.  If it does, I need more explanation. 


Title: Re: Me
Post by: Historicity on March 16, 2011, 08:09:39 PM
I believe that Jesus is the Son of the Living God. I believe that he is not the second head of the trinity.
Whatever.  However.
Quote
14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
...
14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father:  for my Father is greater than I.
Title: Re: Me
Post by: Larissa238 on March 16, 2011, 08:10:48 PM
I believe in YHWH. I believe that Jesus is the Son of the Living God. I believe that he is not the second head of the trinity. I believe in the destruction (by fire/non existent anymoooore) of non-believers, and not an eternal hell.

Okay, so you have your own version of the Bible. Some things are taken literally (the trinity is not in the Bible) and yet you are still cherry-picking (hell is not eternal). There is the "lake of burning sulfur" where the devil and the false prophet (a human) are thrown, and "they will be tormented day and night, for ever and ever"- Rev 20:10- so this hell is eternal, and there is a human in it. You could argue that the "lake of fire" mentioned in Rev 20:15 is not the "lake of burning sulfur", but there is still an eternal hell, with at least one non-believer in it.

Question: Why do you believe in YHWH and not, for example, El Eljon or El Shaddai, who are other Gods of the Bible? Many Christians don't know that when the Bible says "Elohim" it's not referring to YHWH. What makes YHWH so much better than El Eljon or El Shaddai?

- do you consider yourself xian?
Don't know what this is.
- if not, how would you describe your belief?
Unsure, I go to many churches. Trying to find more like me. That may sound arrogant. Church going folk are hypocritical. I am searching for true followers of Jesus' words.
The letter "X" was first used by Christians to shorten Christ, after the Greek letter "Chi" which looks like our X. Xmas=Christmas so xian=Christian

Sounds what you are looking for is a good cult. While some here think that all churches are cults, only in a real cult will you find people so brainwashed that they are not hypocritical (where their action represent their twisted beliefs), and even then, there will still be hypocrites because there is not one true version of your Bible. Every Christian church cherry picks what they think is literal and what is figurative (as you did above with the non-eternal hell).

Quote
- do you subscribe to any particular denomination?
No, but raised Catholic. Do not judge me by this, I have purged myself from Catholicism.


- are you a biblical literalist?
Yes and no, but mainly yes.
Man does not live off of bread and water alone, but every word that proceedeth out of God's mouth.
Micah 6:6-9 is closer to me.


Micah 6:6-9 does not answer the question of biblical literalism. Micah 6:6-7 just talk about offering sacrifices, from rams to oil to your child, as a forgiveness of sin. Verse 8 tells you that you need to act justly, love mercy, and to walk humbly with God. Verse 9 has nothing to do with any of the others. Nothing about how to see if a verse is literal or not.

Quote
- were you raised with these beliefs or did you come to them later in life?
See above. Continued learning as I got older (came closer to the truth).

And what is "the truth" to you? How do you know you have the "right" interpretation of the Bible? How do you know what you think is figurative (eternal hell) and what is literal? When Jesus said that you have to hate your family to love God, *of course* he didn't mean hate, he meant ___. Except some people think it literally means "hate" since Jesus often dissed his own family (calling the believers his family, rather than his blood family) and tells people to leave their families like in Matt 8:22/Luke 9:60, Jesus tells a man whose father just died to not bury his father and comfort his family, but to leave everything and follow him. In Luke 9:62, Jesus tells a man that he can't go back to say goodbye to his family or else he is not fit "for service in the kingdom of God". So, if Jesus would rather have a man's family think he has gone missing or dead instead of the man being able to tell his family not only where he was going, but he could have told his family the "good news" of Jesus as well. Or, how in Luke 12:49-53 how Jesus says that he didn't come to bring peace, but division, pitting family members against one another.

Quote
- if the latter, how did you come to them?
Reading and obeying.

- understanding that I have been religious and then came to believe it was all a load of rubbish, explain to me why I should believe what you believe.
I did something very odd when reading the Gospels. I obeyed his words, truly from the heart. And guess what, it actually works.

I too, at one time, obeyed the Bible as close to literal as I could get, all day every day for years. I truly believed in God, everything, heart and soul. In the middle of that time, I had a mental breakdown and became severely depressed and suicidal. I even had a verse in the Bible telling me suicide was a forgivable sin (the only unforgivable sin being cursing the Holy Spirit), so I could somehow kill myself and still go to heaven. No matter how hard I tried to keep it, I lost hope. This is all while I was still a devout believer, by the way.

Quote
- how do you know your religious ideas are correct?
One word that you all lack, Hope.

1. You are assuming here. I now have hope in my life, something I have only found as a non-believer since the onset of my illness. I don't get hope from God, I get it from trying to make the best out of what I've got.

2. If hope is the only way you know your ideas are correct, I feel sorry for you. I can hope all I want that there is a fluffy pink unicorn out there just for me, but that doesn't make it correct or real. I'm a person of facts. There is no evidence for the bible out there besides itself and other propaganda. There are no remains in the desert of Moses and the people he led out of Egypt. There are no signs that a large Jewish population resided in Egypt at the time of Moses. I spoke above about the "one, true God of the Bible" and how that's a lie. There are more than one God in the Bible, they have different names given to them by the people who wrote that part of the Bible. If your book can't even agree on if there is one God or many, don't you think that would be a HUGE stumbling block for someone with faith?
Title: Re: Me
Post by: screwtape on March 17, 2011, 07:02:50 AM
The letter "X" was first used by Christians to shorten Christ, after the Greek letter "Chi" which looks like our X. Xmas=Christmas so xian=Christian

Oh wow.  Thanks, Larissa.  I did not even consider the idea that he did not understand the abbreviation.  I thought he was saying he did not understand what a xian was.  As in, how does one define "xian"?

Title: Re: Me
Post by: velkyn on March 17, 2011, 08:23:14 AM
well, SOI, you are pretty typical. You've decided that you and only you know waht God "really" meant.  You want to call anyone who disagrees with you a hypocrite, though you have no evidence of your own that you are more right than them in anyway. 

You claim to be a bible literalist but we can see that you pick and choose as much as any other Christian.  You just use your "magic decoder ring" to tell you what is literal and what you can ignore conveniently. 

Quote
Micah 6:6-9 is closer to me.
this is close to you???
Quote
6 With what shall I come before the LORD and bow down before the exalted God?
Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? 7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams,  with ten thousand rivers of olive oil? Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression,  the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? 8 He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.  And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly[a] with your God. Israel’s Guilt and Punishment 9 Listen! The LORD is calling to the city—    and to fear your name is wisdom—    “Heed the rod and the One who appointed it.
  Many religions have this exact instruction, do good and obey the god.  Nothing new here.  I do good and think God doesn't exist since there is no reason to.  And for this, people like you get their jollies telling me I deserve eternal torture. 
Quote
Reading and obeying.
So you obey all of God's laws? I do wonder how many adulterers you've killed.  I suspect you'll claim that you don't have to since JC said you didn't. But if you actually read your bible, there is nothing sayign that at all, especially considering that the world is still around and thus the law is still supposedly in effect. 
Quote
I did something very odd when reading the Gospels. I obeyed his words, truly from the heart. And guess what, it actually works.
So giving up all of your posessions, hating your family really works?  How does it "work"?  What benefits have you gained from this obediance?
Quote
One word that you all lack, Hope.
Funny how I have plenty of hope.  I am amused by Christians who intentionally lie in order to feel better about themselves.  Would you also like to call atheists bitter, lonely, sad, and all of the other terms that Christians call us when they are trying to convince themselves that atheists are less than they are? 
Title: Re: Me
Post by: frofrodajimmyboy on March 17, 2011, 08:46:28 AM
One word that you all lack, Hope.

I don't understand, SOI.  Why are you telling deliberate lies with no aim other than to insult the members of this forum?  Did I mention something about you being a troll in one of my last posts?  I swear that I did...
Title: Re: Me
Post by: SOI on March 17, 2011, 08:55:55 AM
Again, the reason why I thought this testimonial would be ridiculous was because you all pick me apart, like some type of dissection.


I will try to respond to all of your posts, but if I don't, don't take it as though I am ignoring you or avoiding the question. I am a busy man, with many responsibilities.


Again, I will try to respond to all of the posts, be patient with me.


I will check in later after I have completed some work.


Rock Chalk atheists
Title: Re: Me
Post by: velkyn on March 17, 2011, 09:18:50 AM
seems like you are from Kansas which could explain a few things, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Me
Post by: SOI on March 17, 2011, 10:15:33 AM
OK, that is satisfactory.

Although, the last comment was unnecessary:

Quote
- how do you know your religious ideas are correct?
One word that you all lack, Hope.

We don't lack hope.

For example, there is hope that my baby will come out perfectly OK, despite knowing that he is healthy at the moment. (Anything could go wrong, who knows? I tend to worry a little bit, just because I am human, and that's why there's hope that everything will be OK.)

What we lack is faith.  ;)


I don't think that I am far away from the truth if I claim that you all are without hope. What I mean is, in the theology of an atheist, he exists now, dies and then never again.

Am I right?

Nothing beyond that? Where's the hope in a future in that? And don't speak to me about legacies. Because a ton of legacies have been forgotten.


Quote from: modbreak
fixed quotes

SOI, please work on your quoting. 
~ Screwtape
Title: Re: Me
Post by: SOI on March 17, 2011, 10:43:49 AM
When I was younger I attended several Christian churches trying to understand and find "faith". As you are searching for more like yourself, for true followers of Jesus' words, what are you looking for? How do you define a true follower of Jesus?
 




Defintion of a follower of Jesus - Those who hear his words and do them from a pure heart.
Title: Re: Me
Post by: screwtape on March 17, 2011, 10:49:53 AM
I don't think that I am far away from the truth if I claim that you all are without hope. What I mean is, in the theology of an atheist, he exists now, dies and then never again.

Am I right?

Nothing beyond that? Where's the hope in a future in that? And don't speak to me about legacies. Because a ton of legacies have been forgotten.

That's the bug up your ass?  Eternal life?  Immortality?  We are "without hope" because we accept the fact that we are going to die and that's the end of the line?  That's a really narrow and ungrateful way to look at things.  If you cannot live forever, then life is a bitter, pointless exercise.   You have to have every wonderful thing this world has to offer and you have to have eternal heaven on top of it all.  You greedy bastard.

Well, I don't see it that way. I see it opposite of that. 

If I did have an eternal soul, then life would be completely pointless.  If I thought I was going to heaven where everything is great to the nth degree and I got to play with jesus H and my deceased grand parents and pets and eat ice cream and have fun and bliss forever, then I don't think I would be able to die soon enough.  Why fart around with school, a job, paying bills, getting sick, and experiencing the general pain that is associated with all human life?  Why not hurry up and get to paradise?  Life is nothing compared to heaven.

On the other hand, if life is all there is, I'd better savor it.  The world is enough for me.  I do not demand magic and eternal life on top of it. 

Penn Jillette (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557) says it better

Title: Re: Me
Post by: Alzael on March 17, 2011, 10:52:22 AM

Defintion of a follower of Jesus - Those who hear his words and do them from a pure heart.

And what if they hear the words differently than you do?
Title: Re: Me
Post by: SOI on March 17, 2011, 10:58:00 AM

Quote
I grew up catholic too.  I also purged myself of it.  The difference is, I questioned the very fundamentals of it.  You seem to have kept some ideas and created your own.

I di not create my own, I simply began to seek further and saw the hypocrisy of the Catholic Church's doctrines and behavior.

Quote
How do you know what to take literally and what to take figuratively?  Do you allow women to teach you or to speak in church?

It can be tricky what to take literal and figurative. For example, Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac. The NT scriptures sometimes clarify what God meant i.e. the true definition of murder.

Women, yes they can speak in church. Paul's letter's are often used improperly. People forget that he was speaking to a particular church in a letter at that particular time. There were many prophetess' in the Bible. OT prophets say that God will speak through both sexes.




Quote
That does not tell me why I should believe.  What do you mean "it works"? 

The words.



Quote
I don't find this to be very charitable. I find this to be rather arrogant and mocking.  I also do not think it answers my question.  If it does, I need more explanation.

I don't mean to sound arrogant or mocking. Am I far from the truth with this statement. Jesus only meant to give you hope for a future. In an atheist's theology, this life is it. No more. Not a whole lot of hope in that? Please no talk of a legacy, that is arrogance.
Title: Re: Me
Post by: velkyn on March 17, 2011, 11:15:32 AM
all Christians claim they are "Defintion of a follower of Jesus - Those who hear his words and do them from a pure heart." and insist that those "other" Christians who dont' agree with them aren't Christians at all. 

And again we see that you are a typical Christian in that you try to change the meaning of words.  I have hope, for myself, those I love, for humanity as a whole.  I don't need a promise of an afterlife to have that. 

Quote
It can be tricky what to take literal and figurative. For example, Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac. The NT scriptures sometimes clarify what God meant i.e. the true definition of murder.
So what is this "true definition"? 


Quote
Women, yes they can speak in church. Paul's letter's are often used improperly. People forget that he was speaking to a particular church in a letter at that particular time. There were many prophetess' in the Bible. OT prophets say that God will speak through both sexes.
Oh so we can ignore what we want since it was to only a particular church?  So, now homosexuals are okay with God as are those who don't belive in him?  Where does the OT prophets say that God will speak through both sexes?  I've read it a coupel of times, as a believer and as not, and I don't recall that part. 

Quote
The words.
How does it work?  What are the benefits you receive? 

Quote
I don't mean to sound arrogant or mocking. Am I far from the truth with this statement. Jesus only meant to give you hope for a future. In an atheist's theology, this life is it. No more. Not a whole lot of hope in that? Please no talk of a legacy, that is arrogance.

And again, more lies about no one having hope except Christians just like you.  Rather sad.  What you describe is fear, not hope.  You are so afraid of death that you need to believe in some magical afterlife. 
Title: Re: Me
Post by: ParkingPlaces on March 17, 2011, 01:33:21 PM
I don't think that I am far away from the truth if I claim that you all are without hope. What I mean is, in the theology of an atheist, he exists now, dies and then never again.

Am I right?

Nothing beyond that? Where's the hope in a future in that? And don't speak to me about legacies. Because a ton of legacies have been forgotten.

When your only source of hope is made up, your world is fragile. You apparently can't tolerate reality, so you make up your own infinity and then chide us for not playing your game.

Hope is not a necessity. It's nice to have some, but not so much that it takes up all of time. I hope the japanese reactor thing turns out tolerably well. I hope food prices don't rise too quick. I hope my kids have a good life. Said hope has no connection with reality. Negative outcomes are quite possible no matter what I want to have happen. The purpose of hope is to help us define our preferences in certain situations. It has nothing to do with reality. I could easily go into fantasy mode and hope all sorts of fantastic things, from great wealth and Ferrari's to movie star girlfriends. But such thoughts have no purpose, whether they be my hedonistic examples or your infinite life in heaven one.

LadyAm hopes she has a healthy child, and I trust that, to help the process along, she is doing healthy things. I hope she is eating right, following her OB/GYN's orders, maintaining a great relationship with her husband, avoiding alcohol, etc. All the hope in the world would do her no good if she was pregnant and doing meth, driving drunk, having unprotected sex with possibly HIV positive individuals and robbing banks to support her habit. Like most normal people, I am sure she is not dependen only hope to get her through the next six months until the baby is born. (Hope it's okay that I used you as an example, Lady).

I hope I have food to eat next week. Towards that end, I'm working this week. I hope I stay healthy as long as possible. Towards that end I minimize junk food intake, exercise and avoid unhealthy activities. I hope I understand what is happening in Japan. Towards that end I read a variety of news sources, scientific explanations of earthquakes and meltdowns, economic forecasts, and watch how other people and countries are reacting to that tragedy. I could just hope to know it all and sit back and wait for the info and insight to flow in from some unknown and undefinable source, but I've noticed over the last 59 years that that never works.

I once knew a 17 year old high school senior who told me with absolute conviction that he hoped to be a star quarterback in the NFL. He had never played in a single organized football game, be it Pop Warner, middle school or high school. But he had hopes to be the best in his field. That was 15 years ago. I didn't notice his name on any team roster this year. Or in any year. Hope guarantees absolutely nothing.

Hope is no big deal. It is interesting. It's nice that we can have it. But it predicts the future with no more reliability than a crank psychic with a crystal ball. I'm glad we have it in our human tool kit, but I'll never be guilty of spending my whole frickin' life depending on that one big hope in the sky for which there isn't one iota of evidence. Other than words from other equally disconnected hopers (aka christians).
Title: Re: Me
Post by: screwtape on March 17, 2011, 01:35:40 PM
Again, the reason why I thought this testimonial would be ridiculous was because you all pick me apart, like some type of dissection.

SOI,

What we do here on this forum, the whole point of it, is to discuss, analyze, and examine religious ideas.  It is not here for people to sound off.  It is not for people to make religious proclamations and go unchallenged.  The very name of the site is a challenge.  It is inherently confrontational.   So, I do not understand your cranky attitude.

This kind of criticism and analysis is how people test their ideas, religious or otherwise.  It is how we make sure what we believe matches reality.  It is how we get smarter.  Why not use this as an opportunity to have others help you examine yor beliefs?  You might find something new.  You might discover that something you thought was The Truth contradicts with something else you thought was The Truth.  You might find new truth.  I'm not even talking about making you an atheist, though that would be ideal.

If that is not for you, if you are going to piss and moan about being "dissected", if you are going to make us drag every last piece of information out of you, if you are not interested in examining your beliefs, then you are hanging out with the wrong crowd.  I am not trying to run you off.  Truly, I am not.   You just seem...unhappy about your experience here.  You seem reluctant to write anything. 

What do you want to get out of your experience here?  What are your expectations?

Title: Re: Me
Post by: LadyLucy on March 17, 2011, 01:40:48 PM
LadyAm hopes she has a healthy child, and I trust that, to help the process along, she is doing healthy things. I hope she is eating right, following her OB/GYN's orders, maintaining a great relationship with her husband, avoiding alcohol, etc. All the hope in the world would do her no good if she was pregnant and doing meth, driving drunk, having unprotected sex with possibly HIV positive individuals and robbing banks to support her habit. Like most normal people, I am sure she is not dependen only hope to get her through the next six months until the baby is born. (Hope it's okay that I used you as an example, Lady).

Perfectly fine! [I took no offense, since I'm not a dumb-fuck. ;) I see what you are doing there. +1 on post]

On a side-note: Baby's wonderfully healthy, and so am I, according to my doctors. :D I have been taking great care of myself, one said (the most recent one I've seen, about 2 weeks ago for an update, based on all the blood and urine samples I've done). <-- Action > Hope
Title: Re: Me
Post by: screwtape on March 17, 2011, 02:05:23 PM

Quote
I grew up catholic too.  I also purged myself of it.  The difference is, I questioned the very fundamentals of it.  You seem to have kept some ideas and created your own.

I di not create my own, I simply began to seek further and saw the hypocrisy of the Catholic Church's doctrines and behavior.

Sure you did.  That's not derogatory.  The bible can be confusing and seems to have many contradictions.  You must necessarily make choices about which half of the contradiction you think is right. You must necessarily make interpretations.  Thus, you must have your own ideas about it.


Quote
How do you know what to take literally and what to take figuratively?  Do you allow women to teach you or to speak in church?

It can be tricky what to take literal and figurative.

I know it can be tricky.  I've read the bible.  What I want to know is, how you know which is which.  What method do you use?  How can I know the difference?  How is it that lots of other people[1] came to different conclusions than you?


Women, yes they can speak in church. Paul's letter's are often used improperly. People forget that he was speaking to a particular church in a letter at that particular time. There were many prophetess' in the Bible. OT prophets say that God will speak through both sexes.

I disagree. That chapter was about how to have an orderly service.  Paul talked about people speaking in tongues and making prophesies, taking turns, etc.  Then he went out of his way to say women should stfu and if they had questions, ask their husbands at home.  Then back to prophesies.  This (http://www.ntrf.org/articles/article_detail.php?PRKey=16) makes a pretty clear-cut case against you.   

You have said previously the NT clarifies and "over rules" the OT.  Now you are saying in this case, it is the other way around.  How do you know when to believe which?  To me it looks like you made a choice about how to interpret a particular passage based on your personal preference.  You probably do not like the idea that women should keep silent.  You probably find that sexist and appalling.  I know I do.  So you chose to keep your moral perspective on the situation and justify it using other parts of the bible rather than think your god wants women to shut up and sit down.  Other people throughout history have come to the opposite conclusion as you.  How do you know they are not right and you are not wrong?

Don't get me wrong.  I agree with you that if you have to be in a church, it should be okay for women to speak and teach.  In fact, I think we'd be better off in many cases if men stfu.  I'm just making the point that, the bible does not agree with your modern day ideas of morality and sexual equality.

Quote
That does not tell me why I should believe.  What do you mean "it works"? 

The words.
 1. I believe there are about 30,000 denominations of xianity

that does not help me.  I am further from understanding than before.



I don't mean to sound arrogant or mocking. Am I far from the truth with this statement. Jesus only meant to give you hope for a future. In an atheist's theology, this life is it. No more. Not a whole lot of hope in that? Please no talk of a legacy, that is arrogance.

I addressed this in an earlier post.

edit - added link and some text to paragraphs about women in church.
Title: Re: Me
Post by: SOI on March 17, 2011, 03:29:28 PM
Quote
Why not use this as an opportunity to have others help you examine yor beliefs?  You might find something new.  You might discover that something you thought was The Truth contradicts with something else you thought was The Truth.  You might find new truth.  I'm not even talking about making you an atheist, though that would be ideal.If that is not for you, if you are going to piss and moan about being "dissected", if you are going to make us drag every last piece of information out of you, if you are not interested in examining your beliefs, then you are hanging out with the wrong crowd.  I am not trying to run you off.  Truly, I am not.   You just seem...unhappy about your experience here.  You seem reluctant to write anything. 

What do you want to get out of your experience here?  What are your expectations?



I am not cranky.

I just saw through the facade of my "testimonial." I knew that's what you guys were requesting, an exceptable request, but I knew you were going to dislike it extremely. Is that not the case?

I would not get away with the abusive language poured my way. I would be in violation of your rules (laws). And that's precisely what I have been saying all along. Two different natures. Two different appetites.

If you do not want to run me off, then quit suggesting it. Based off of your last response, I may have struck a chord.

What do I want to get out of my experience here? Truth.

My expectations? An even playing field.



Title: Re: Me
Post by: SOI on March 17, 2011, 03:45:28 PM
Quote
Okay, so you have your own version of the Bible. Some things are taken literally (the trinity is not in the Bible) and yet you are still cherry-picking (hell is not eternal). There is the "lake of burning sulfur" where the devil and the false prophet (a human) are thrown, and "they will be tormented day and night, for ever and ever"- Rev 20:10- so this hell is eternal, and there is a human in it. You could argue that the "lake of fire" mentioned in Rev 20:15 is not the "lake of burning sulfur", but there is still an eternal hell, with at least one non-believer in it.

I believe the correct word there is aion (forever), I may be incorrect. Which means for a period of time. And if you read many verses, there is much talk of destruction, of walking on the ashes of the non-believers.


Quote
Question: Why do you believe in YHWH and not, for example, El Eljon or El Shaddai, who are other Gods of the Bible? Many Christians don't know that when the Bible says "Elohim" it's not referring to YHWH. What makes YHWH so much better than El Eljon or El Shaddai?

I will admit that I am weak in my knowledge of these other names. I know that some of the names have to do with the Hebrew language and translation. (Many of you will take this has a weakness.)

I know in Exodus 6:3 is where he reveals his true name as YHWH. Deuteronomy 6:4 is not confusing at all about how many number he is.

Title: Re: Me
Post by: SOI on March 17, 2011, 03:52:14 PM
Quote
Micah 6:6-9 does not answer the question of biblical literalism. Micah 6:6-7 just talk about offering sacrifices, from rams to oil to your child, as a forgiveness of sin. Verse 8 tells you that you need to act justly, love mercy, and to walk humbly with God. Verse 9 has nothing to do with any of the others. Nothing about how to see if a verse is literal or not.

Forgive me, 6-8.

You all know that animals were sacrificed for man's sins (not to your child, this much is obvious). The writer is stating that God see's the inner man and man must "do justice, love kindness, and walk humbly with God."
Title: Re: Me
Post by: screwtape on March 17, 2011, 03:55:16 PM
I am not cranky.

Oh, you're cranky alright, mister.

I just saw through the facade of my "testimonial." I knew that's what you guys were requesting, an exceptable request, but I knew you were going to dislike it extremely. Is that not the case?

What I dislike is how incomplete it is, how I have to drag information out of you.  I feel like an interrogator and I do not like that.  The content has not been a problem, at least not the way you seem to be implying.  Sure, I disagree with many of your beliefs, but so what?  Have I beaten you up for it?


I would not get away with the abusive language poured my way. I would be in violation of your rules (laws). And that's precisely what I have been saying all along. Two different natures. Two different appetites.

Stop with the martyr routine.  If you don't like it, report it. 

If you do not want to run me off, then quit suggesting it. Based off of your last response, I may have struck a chord.

I didn't suggest it.  I said, you seem pessimistic and unhappy.  I did not want you to mistake my words as an invitation to leave. 

What do I want to get out of my experience here? Truth.

Can you handle the truth?  What if truth does not conform to your beliefs?  Are you prepared to alter your beliefs?

My expectations? An even playing field.

That is a reasonable expectation.  Let me tell you one of my expectations.  I expect you to be engaged. 

Ask me a question.  Make it a good question, not something sappy, like "are you prepared to answer for your sins".  Something informational.
Title: Re: Me
Post by: Dante on March 17, 2011, 03:56:23 PM
My expectations? An even playing field.

This place is about an even a playing field as one could hope to come across. And, as in life, while the playing field is even, the strengths of each "competitor" are not. You, unfortunately, seem to have brought a wet noodle to a gunfight.

You will require more than that to be able to hold discussion here.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Me
Post by: SOI on March 17, 2011, 03:57:34 PM
Quote
And what is "the truth" to you? How do you know you have the "right" interpretation of the Bible? How do you know what you think is figurative (eternal hell) and what is literal? When Jesus said that you have to hate your family to love God, *of course* he didn't mean hate, he meant ___. Except some people think it literally means "hate" since Jesus often dissed his own family (calling the believers his family, rather than his blood family) and tells people to leave their families like in Matt 8:22/Luke 9:60, Jesus tells a man whose father just died to not bury his father and comfort his family, but to leave everything and follow him. In Luke 9:62, Jesus tells a man that he can't go back to say goodbye to his family or else he is not fit "for service in the kingdom of God". So, if Jesus would rather have a man's family think he has gone missing or dead instead of the man being able to tell his family not only where he was going, but he could have told his family the "good news" of Jesus as well. Or, how in Luke 12:49-53 how Jesus says that he didn't come to bring peace, but division, pitting family members against one another.

"What is truth?" Pontious Pilate quote. The truth is this, eternal life. And all those who love his commandments will receive it.

I have family members, not immediate, who call themselves believers, who know no truth. Division, YES.
Title: Re: Me
Post by: SOI on March 17, 2011, 03:59:10 PM
And when one of my immediate family members goes astray, even a little. Division, yes.

I am having an extremely tough time posting. I hope the Mods are not affecting this.

Title: Re: Me
Post by: screwtape on March 17, 2011, 04:02:42 PM
I will admit that I am weak in my knowledge of these other names. I know that some of the names have to do with the Hebrew language and translation. (Many of you will take this has a weakness.)

bold mine.  It sounds like you are preemptively complaining about us judging you.  Yet you just called it a weakness.  Stop doing that.  Stop assuming we are going to be jerks.  We might surprise you.


I am having an extremely tough time posting. I hope the Mods are not affecting this.

Can you explain the problem?  The only time mods can hold up posts is when you are in moderated status.  That would be indicated on your profile and you would have reveived several PMs before that point indicating your status. You are not in moderated status nor have you been.
Title: Re: Me
Post by: Nam on March 17, 2011, 04:28:46 PM
I gave you a -1 for these things:

I was directed here to give my testimonial (laughs). No I am not laughing at you. I am laughing at the entire concept.

Quote
I believe that by this "admittance (laughs)" that I have opened up a pandora's box for questioning or poking holes in my beliefs. But, whatever. Lol.

Quote
On a side note. Who wins the tournament?

Why?  'Cause you present yourself as being up for zero discussion on this forum.  Whether to better your own knowledge in what you believe in; which you could learn a lot from those who do not believe in what you do; we probably know more about your religion than you or perhaps even many other people who hold to your particular religion -- since we study it to debate against it.   Also, I feel that you're just setting yourself up as a troll.  People tend to not take too kindly of those sorts of creatures here -- I wonder why?

-Nam
Title: Re: Me
Post by: Larissa238 on March 17, 2011, 06:18:34 PM
Quote
Okay, so you have your own version of the Bible. Some things are taken literally (the trinity is not in the Bible) and yet you are still cherry-picking (hell is not eternal). There is the "lake of burning sulfur" where the devil and the false prophet (a human) are thrown, and "they will be tormented day and night, for ever and ever"- Rev 20:10- so this hell is eternal, and there is a human in it. You could argue that the "lake of fire" mentioned in Rev 20:15 is not the "lake of burning sulfur", but there is still an eternal hell, with at least one non-believer in it.

I believe the correct word there is aion (forever), I may be incorrect. Which means for a period of time. And if you read many verses, there is much talk of destruction, of walking on the ashes of the non-believers.

It uses the root word "aión" twice- so for ever and for ever again. http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/165.htm (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/165.htm) I got the Greek interlinear Bible, looked up the words, and this site also says "aión" can mean for eternity ("and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.") The same word is used in other places to mean "an age", but pretty much every single Bible since the KJV translates it's use here to "forever and ever". Even those who use "age" use it as "to the ages of the ages." (source: http://bible.cc/revelation/20-10.htm (http://bible.cc/revelation/20-10.htm) )

Quote
Quote
Question: Why do you believe in YHWH and not, for example, El Eljon or El Shaddai, who are other Gods of the Bible? Many Christians don't know that when the Bible says "Elohim" it's not referring to YHWH. What makes YHWH so much better than El Eljon or El Shaddai?

I will admit that I am weak in my knowledge of these other names. I know that some of the names have to do with the Hebrew language and translation. (Many of you will take this has a weakness.)

I know in Exodus 6:3 is where he reveals his true name as YHWH. Deuteronomy 6:4 is not confusing at all about how many number he is.

Exodus 6:3 just said that God showed himself as El Shaddai to Abraham, Issac, and Jacob; while to Moses he said his name was YHWH. This is interesting, since he also told Moses in Exodus 3:15 that he was YHWH, and Elohei. YHWH translates to "The Lord" and Elohai as "God" (http://biblos.com/exodus/3-15.htm (http://biblos.com/exodus/3-15.htm)). So wouldn't God's real name be Elohai, since that means "God"? Don't you wonder why there are all these different names for God? It's because the Pentateuch has 4 authors and one person who just tried to make everything mesh. You see that meshing here- the writer is trying to make all the different names for the Hebrew GodS into one. (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_tora1.htm (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_tora1.htm))

Please, learn about the history of the book you claim as holy before declaring you are on the "one true path" and following the "one true God (Elohai=God)" when you don't even know the true name of your God since he is based off of different gods.

Quote
Micah 6:6-9 does not answer the question of biblical literalism. Micah 6:6-7 just talk about offering sacrifices, from rams to oil to your child, as a forgiveness of sin. Verse 8 tells you that you need to act justly, love mercy, and to walk humbly with God. Verse 9 has nothing to do with any of the others. Nothing about how to see if a verse is literal or not.

Forgive me, 6-8.

You all know that animals were sacrificed for man's sins (not to your child, this much is obvious). The writer is stating that God see's the inner man and man must "do justice, love kindness, and walk humbly with God."

I question your reading comprehension here. I used "from A to B to C" within commas to indicate that they were to be taken as a group. You didn't think I meant that you sacrificed your rams to your oil, and then sacrificed the oil to your child, then sacrificed your child to god, did you? When something is in commas, like in the case above and here, it's being shown as a group and as an example. You take from the first comma and could take out the words between them and make sense. Hence, you could do that as: "just talk about offering sacrifices as a forgiveness of sin." I think you are a native English speaker and should know this. If not, what language are you reading your Bible in, and which translation? If you can't understand the basics of a sentence in English, you should not be offering literary criticism on something as complicated as the Bible (in English).

"What is truth?" Pontious Pilate quote. The truth is this, eternal life. And all those who love his commandments will receive it.

So, which of Jesus' commandments do you follow? You are kosher, right? You don't wear fiber of two mixed fibers and you don't eat shellfish? How many adulterers and disobedient children have you stoned? You see, Jesus did not come to get rid of the OT laws, (Matthew 5:17-18) but to tell people that "not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished". Also, have you learned to type with one hand? I'm sure you have sinned using your right hand, so Jesus says to cut it off. Have you ever looked at a woman lustfully? Do you still have both eyes? If you still have both eyes and both hands, you are not following what Jesus said. Unless you are typing from a library computer, since you have no home or possessions (since Jesus told you to sell everything and give it to the poor) then you are not following Jesus's words.

Every example above was taken from Matthew 5 and 6. There are many more examples in just these 2 chapters. Make sure you are following Jesus, and not the fake prophet Paul. Paul takes the things Jesus says and corrupts it and twists the meanings of it. I don't know how he got into the Bible.

I have family members, not immediate, who call themselves believers, who know no truth. Division, YES.

And when one of my immediate family members goes astray, even a little. Division, yes.

I hope you don't mind that I moved the two posts of yours together to keep the idea going. So, do you love your family or do you hate them? Do any of your family members have the exact same beliefs as you do? You seem to have trouble finding a church where you approve of the believers (since you have your own twisted version of what the scriptures mean), so I would think it would be hard for even your family to have the exact same beliefs as you.

You are judging your family members by saying they are going astray. Who are you to know the inner workings of their mind? What if the things you think are "astray" are actually supported by the Bible? You, sir, are judging- something Jesus said not to do. Another command of Jesus you are not following.

Not to toot my own horn, but as you can see I know the Bible quite well, from the years I read it daily and taking notes on it. I learned even more on this site. There are so many contradictions in there that you can use it to support genocide, rape, murder, polygamy, and so much more. Feel free to ask me about any of these- I can support them with verses if you wish.

I know you probably got distracted, but I would like to hear what you think about the rest of my post.
Quote from: Larissa238
Quote from: SOI
- if the latter, how did you come to them?
Reading and obeying.

- understanding that I have been religious and then came to believe it was all a load of rubbish, explain to me why I should believe what you believe.
I did something very odd when reading the Gospels. I obeyed his words, truly from the heart. And guess what, it actually works.

I too, at one time, obeyed the Bible as close to literal as I could get, all day every day for years. I truly believed in God, everything, heart and soul. In the middle of that time, I had a mental breakdown and became severely depressed and suicidal. I even had a verse in the Bible telling me suicide was a forgivable sin (the only unforgivable sin being cursing the Holy Spirit), so I could somehow kill myself and still go to heaven. No matter how hard I tried to keep it, I lost hope. This is all while I was still a devout believer, by the way.

Quote
- how do you know your religious ideas are correct?
One word that you all lack, Hope.

1. You are assuming here. I now have hope in my life, something I have only found as a non-believer since the onset of my illness. I don't get hope from God, I get it from trying to make the best out of what I've got.

2. If hope is the only way you know your ideas are correct, I feel sorry for you. I can hope all I want that there is a fluffy pink unicorn out there just for me, but that doesn't make it correct or real. I'm a person of facts. There is no evidence for the bible out there besides itself and other propaganda. There are no remains in the desert of Moses and the people he led out of Egypt. There are no signs that a large Jewish population resided in Egypt at the time of Moses. I spoke above about the "one, true God of the Bible" and how that's a lie. There are more than one God in the Bible, they have different names given to them by the people who wrote that part of the Bible. If your book can't even agree on if there is one God or many, don't you think that would be a HUGE stumbling block for someone with faith?
Title: Re: Me
Post by: voodoo child on March 17, 2011, 10:16:11 PM
I don't think that I am far away from the truth if I claim that you all are without hope. What I mean is, in the theology of an atheist, he exists now, dies and then never again.

Am I right?

Nothing beyond that? Where's the hope in a future in that? And don't speak to me about legacies. Because a ton of legacies have been forgotten.

that's because I don't care what happens when I am dead. I'm dead. the end. I was nothing before I was born.
why would a god care about you're legacies, what use would a god have with the legacies of simple humans?

 a ton of legacies have also been remembered.

how about we do it your way SOI, drop everything to follow the teachings of a fictional character. I would say the population of planet earth would drop rapidly. god don't fix roofs, cure diseases, help deliver baby's or clean the water.
Title: Re: Me
Post by: wright on March 17, 2011, 11:18:26 PM
So legacies don't last forever. What of it? Why should that make atheists despair? Nothing lasts forever; from galaxies to Saturn's rings to my favorite cat to me. Getting upset about that is like a child getting mad at gravity.

Why should hope be contingent on something or someone existing eternally? That's just wish-fulfillment, arising from our instinct to survive as long as possible. We're rational beings, or can choose to be, and can still accomplish amazing things in the handful of decades most of us have.

Carl Sagan is a prime example: a scientist and educator who advanced human knowledge and communicated his enthusiasm for doing so to millions of others; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sagan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sagan).

Stanislav Petrov is another: a Lt. Colonel in the former Soviet Union. He may have prevented a nuclear exchange between the late unlamented USSR and the USA; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov).

My point is that "legacies", however they're defined, can have profound effects, even if they don't last.
Title: Re: Me
Post by: grant on March 18, 2011, 04:51:03 AM
I was directed here to give my testimonial (laughs). No I am not laughing at you. I am laughing at the entire concept.


I believe in YHWH. I believe that Jesus is the Son of the Living God. I believe that he is not the second head of the trinity. I believe in the destruction (by fire/non existent anymoooore) of non-believers, and not an eternal hell.

I believe that by this "admittance (laughs)" that I have opened up a pandora's box for questioning or poking holes in my beliefs. But, whatever. Lol.



On a side note. Who wins the tournament?

BIG = MINE

Having a bit of a peruse through the thread, I'd say NOT YOU

But after thats said, forget it.
Title: Re: Me
Post by: velkyn on March 18, 2011, 08:16:15 AM
Quote
Micah 6:6-9 does not answer the question of biblical literalism. Micah 6:6-7 just talk about offering sacrifices, from rams to oil to your child, as a forgiveness of sin. Verse 8 tells you that you need to act justly, love mercy, and to walk humbly with God. Verse 9 has nothing to do with any of the others. Nothing about how to see if a verse is literal or not.

Forgive me, 6-8.

You all know that animals were sacrificed for man's sins (not to your child, this much is obvious). The writer is stating that God see's the inner man and man must "do justice, love kindness, and walk humbly with God."

no, SOI, no one said that anything was being sacrificed to any child, but that children were to be sacrificed.  Look at the grammar.   So God seems to be down with human sacrifice, which isn't suprising. 

I am always amused when Christians are so ignorant of their own bible. You'd think you'd all study it 24/7 to make sure you weren't damned.  And "forever" may be a unit of time but it's *forever* not some time with an end.  We always have Christians here, all sure that their interpretation of what God 'really' meant is the only right one and you, as all of them, have no evidence of this.  Only your particular self-projection as god, aka spag. 

Quote
"What is truth?" Pontious Pilate quote. The truth is this, eternal life. And all those who love his commandments will receive it.
So again, how many adulterers have you killed?  How many breaking the sabbath?  Do you love his commandments or do you pick and choose, SOI? 

Quote
I have family members, not immediate, who call themselves believers, who know no truth. Division, YES.
  and so do show how your version is the only "right" one.  Do you belive that JC said that his followers would be able to do miracles even greater than him?  If so, where are your miracles, SOI?  Who have you healed?
Title: Re: Me
Post by: SOI on March 20, 2011, 12:01:47 AM
I find there to be a great disagreement between us. One where either of us will convince the other of there beliefs or in your case unbeliefs. I have no great frustrations with you, or dusting of my feet. And I don't question my own faith either.

I just want to leave all of you with one final thought. Where is it all headed if there is an entire society of humans that have no beliefs?

1984 comes to mind. A ruling class that mocked people well after they had enslaved and deceived them. Surely all of you can see this train wreck coming? Do you think that all of you can combine your power and resources to fight back? Do you think that you can overcome each other to accomplish this?

And if you are the enslaver, what happens when they find something wrong with you, and throw you into the fire next?

Ephraim devours Manasseh and Manasseh devours Ephraim.

Bye.   
Title: Re: Me
Post by: xphobe on March 20, 2011, 12:24:32 AM
I just want to leave all of you with one final thought. Where is it all headed if there is an entire society of humans that have no beliefs?

Who said we have no beliefs?  I believe that it's important to care for and support my family, to take reasonable steps to avoid squandering natural resources or fouling my own environment, to treat other people with fairness and respect, as I would want to be treated.  I believe that by maximizing individual liberty we make it possible for those individuals to achieve greatness limited only by their imagination.  At the same time, I believe that some people will look for opportunities to cheat, exploit or coerce others for personal gain, and a system of laws and enforcement needs to be in place to protect free individuals from force and fraud.

But then, you don't really mean "no beliefs", you mean "beliefs other than yours".  Because a race of humans with absolutely no beliefs would be basically animals, and it would look just like any other animal population you care to observe.  Some thrive, some don't.  Being basically a weak, frail species of great ape with no protective body fur, we probably wouldn't do very well.

Quote
1984 comes to mind. A ruling class that mocked people well after they had enslaved and deceived them. Surely all of you can see this train wreck coming?

As a matter of fact, I can.  It's happening in Iran and the Muslim world, it's starting to get exported to Europe, and there are theocratic politicians in the west like Mike Huckabee who openly advocate a government based on "Biblical principles".  It scares the hell out of me.
Title: Re: Me
Post by: LadyLucy on March 20, 2011, 01:01:55 AM
Bye. I'm glad that I won't hear metaphors that make no sense (and I'm sure you don't know what you're talking about) anymore.

By the way, you are the one who chose to come here. We didn't bring you here. You did, sir. It's all about choices. So, I don't see the "enslaver". I only see the "one who has no clue what he's talking about, but still tries as to be a pseudo-intellectual through the heavy usage of metaphors".
Title: Re: Me
Post by: ParkingPlaces on March 20, 2011, 01:52:00 AM
Not having one belief (in god) and having NO beliefs are two very different things. We all have beliefs. Atheists just prefer the kind that we can justify.

Bye bye...
Title: Re: Me
Post by: screwtape on March 20, 2011, 07:30:19 AM
I just want to leave all of you with one final thought. Where is it all headed if there is an entire society of humans that have no beliefs?

We have lots of beliefs.  We just do not believe in gods.

Title: Re: Me
Post by: naemhni on March 20, 2011, 07:47:17 AM
I find there to be a great disagreement between us.

You're only figuring this one out now...?

Quote
Where is it all headed if there is an entire society of humans that have no beliefs?

That's a pretty silly thing to ask.  Have you ever met even one single human being anywhere, ever, who didn't believe anything?  I'm not expert in this area of psychology, but I'd hazard a guess that believing nothing isn't even possible.

Quote
Bye.

This is the debating technique known as "Hit and Run".  Nice job.

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#hit_and_run (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#hit_and_run)
Title: Re: Me
Post by: One Above All on March 20, 2011, 07:48:28 AM
I just want to leave all of you with one final thought. Where is it all headed if there is an entire society of humans that have no beliefs?

We have lots of beliefs.  We just do not believe in gods.

And in that regard, it seems to be working for Sweden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden). It's one of the least religious countries in the world and also the best in many areas
Title: Re: Me
Post by: ZenZen on March 20, 2011, 11:57:33 AM

And in that regard, it seems to be working for Sweden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden). It's one of the least religious countries in the world and also the best in many areas

...Guess who is third! ;D
Title: Re: Me
Post by: Graybeard on March 20, 2011, 01:14:06 PM
And so it ends. The prophet shakes the dust from his feet and the inhabitants of WWGHAtown go about their daily lives as before, wondering why he came in the first place if his mind was closed.
Title: Re: Me
Post by: Hatter23 on March 21, 2011, 07:10:57 AM
Quote
Bye.

This is the debating technique known as "Hit and Run".  Nice job.

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#hit_and_run (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#hit_and_run)

Yeah, I was thinking much the same. If he were honest the response would have been; "I am incapable of handling debate and defending my position. So, in my smug insecurity, I will leave you(because I cannot support it) with what I consider great wisdom: "Your position is wrong"

Title: Re: Me
Post by: Anfauglir on March 21, 2011, 07:24:47 AM
I just want to leave all of you with one final thought. Where is it all headed if there is an entire society of humans that have no beliefs?

Yeah, if only there was a society where every living human was certain that god existed - nothing could go wrong them.

You know....like when the only humans were Adam and Eve, or the only humans were Noah and his family......things went well from that point, didn't they?

And we can look at some of the communities that have the strongest and firmest beliefs in their god.  You know, like Westboro Baptist Church, or in Iraq.  Some great stuff going on there.

Or maybe - just maybe - when we get to the point where everyone realises for sure that THIS life is the only one we all get, they will realise that THIS world is the one we have to make heaven, and all the bigotry and hatred will fall away.

Just a thought.
Title: Re: Me
Post by: velkyn on March 21, 2011, 09:26:50 AM
I find there to be a great disagreement between us. One where either of us will convince the other of there beliefs or in your case unbeliefs. I have no great frustrations with you, or dusting of my feet. And I don't question my own faith either.
No kidding.  You are quite sure you are one more OneTrueChristiantm who has created god in their image.

Quote
I just want to leave all of you with one final thought. Where is it all headed if there is an entire society of humans that have no beliefs?
I'm assuming you mean beliefs in a god/the supernatural.  To a much better place where we don't have people killing each other over whose invisible friend is best.

Quote
1984 comes to mind. A ruling class that mocked people well after they had enslaved and deceived them. Surely all of you can see this train wreck coming? Do you think that all of you can combine your power and resources to fight back? Do you think that you can overcome each other to accomplish this?
I do love how Chritians must rely on fear in their attempts to get people to follow their religion.  No, no train wreck coming.  And since your god doesn't exist, if anythign does happen, that's all we have, our resources and each other.  I do find it hilarious that it's the religious idiots who are attempting to force their wills on everyone, not atheists.  See, right here,  the religous right is sure that they need to use the IRS to persecute anyone who has had an abortion of their own free will on the claim that no government money can be spent on abortions: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/03/just_another_day_in_rethuglica.php  Since I pay taxes too, I'm quite content for *my* money to go to those people.  Theists are the problem here. 

Quote
And if you are the enslaver, what happens when they find something wrong with you, and throw you into the fire next?
ooooh threats, I do love that.

Good-bye you nutless wonder.