whywontgodhealamputees.com

Main Discussion Zone => MailBag => Topic started by: DL on November 21, 2009, 08:29:21 AM

Title: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: DL on November 21, 2009, 08:29:21 AM
Although there are numerous flaws and contradictions with science in the christian faith, you present a very bad argument. You appear to be driven by a very hostile attitude to what you belive to be christian ignorance, which leads you to jump to very powerful conclusions with really no evidence to back it up. You only give reasons to not be a christian. You give no reasons why one should be an athiest. Let me put it this way for you sir, If there is no God in any sense, what possible reason could you have for not killing yourself. A simple question, to which i am absolutely confident you cannot present me an answer.

Don't take this the wrong way, i don't dissaprove of your videos or what you are doing, but you are far too confident in your arguments.
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: jetson on November 21, 2009, 09:23:47 AM
No, it is you who are currently deluded in your "opinion."  There is no REASON to be atheist.  There is EVERY reason to examine the god belief and see that it leads to nothing.  Once you arrive at the conclusion that God does not exist, you are atheist - meaning you don't believe God is real.  And you don't need the delusion to continue living a happy life.

Remember, the burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim.  There is literally NO PROOF that any gods ever existed.  All gods are man-made.  If you can dismiss all other man-made gods, then you do yourself a huge disservice to think that you happened to have stumbled across and actual god in Christianity.  It simply is not true.

Come join our forum and learn something.
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: Bumblesquee on November 21, 2009, 09:35:01 AM
Let me put it this way for you sir, If there is no God in any sense, what possible reason could you have for not killing yourself. A simple question, to which i am absolutely confident you cannot present me an answer.

This attitude pisses me off like nought else. So you're telling me that unless there is a supreme being of infinite power and intelligence, possibly one whose arse I must kiss for the whole of my (possibly eternal) existence, my life is meaningless and I should kill myself?

I only have one life. I value it more than anything else. It's brief, but it's precious and can be very wonderful. I have family, I have friends; many of whom would be very hurt if I were to disappear, especially by my own hand. I want to enjoy the things I love--art, music, games. I even enjoy those grey and rainy Sundays because even those will be gone forever one day. There are so many reasons not to kill yourself.
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: Nick on November 21, 2009, 09:40:04 AM
I don't want to kill myself because then I would be dead.
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: JeffPT on November 21, 2009, 10:41:39 AM
Let me put it this way for you sir, If there is no God in any sense, what possible reason could you have for not killing yourself. A simple question, to which i am absolutely confident you cannot present me an answer.

Oh, indeed I DO have an answer. 

I throw this back at you, because this type of argument pisses me off to no end as well. And I want you to think about this, because you have it exactly backwards.....

If you are an atheist, then you understand completely that this is the ONLY life we get.  You understand that after you die, there is most likely nothingness.  Existence ends right then and there.  So the atheist has to come to terms with that and understand that something, is always better than nothing.  An atheist lives their life knowing that this is all we KNOW we get.  So we value it much more than any Christian ever could. 

If you believe in God, however, then you believe you have another life after this one.  And you know that the other life is going to be infinite and full of greatness with no pain, no death, no suffering.  You have something to look forward to that is way better than this life, and all it takes is the stopping of your heart.  So I ask you, WTF are you waiting for?  Go out and kill yourself so you can get to that next life.  This one is so full of terrible, awful, baby eating atheists, what keeps you here?  What is your "purpose" for being here that supercedes God's ultimate purpose for you in the kingdom of heaven?  Giving glory to God?  So your purpose is to be a cheerleader for a fictitious supreme being?  Nuts.  Just nuts.

In life, the things atheists live for are real.  Family, friends, love, entertainment, learning, and so much more.  Do you find those to be bad reasons to choose life over death?  Do you place no value on those things?  Do you find those things not worth living for?  The difference is that we choose to live our life without the belief in something for which there is no evidence.  It seems to me, you are saying the only thing in this world that is actually worth living for is your God.  Well, I hate to break this to you, but that's really, really sad. 

So tell me again, why you think you have more to live for?  My wife and kids should be home any minute from the gym.  What better thing to live for than seeing them every day? 

Your life on this earth is spent thinking you are doing something positive for a being that isn't real.  It is all I can do not to laugh and point at you. 

Your God awaits your arrival in heaven.  Go and join him.   

And BTW, the reason people turn to atheism is not because there is some sort of benefit from it.  They do it because they found no reason to believe that any religion is real.  They value TRUTH over dogma.  Honesty over lies.  Reason over blind faith. If you don't value truth, then you are free to stick with your religion and believe what you want.  Atheism is not a sales pitch.  It's not trying to recruit you.  It's not flashy and it doesn't offer you a fake sky daddy that will take all your problems away.  It offers truth, nothing more.  It's just opening your eyes to see the world for what it really is.  If you value truth, then take the steps to find out what that truth is.  If you believe in God, you do not have truth right now.  I promise you that.  Open your mind to the possibility that you are wrong. 

Your God is not real.  The reason for the confidence is nothing more than a conclusion based on an honest exploration for the truth.  It is the same confidence that one would get trying to prove 2 + 2 = 4.  Every time you add 2 things to 2 more things, you get 4 things.  It works every time.  After you do it a bunch, and you always get 4, then you can be act confident that it's true.  That is where the confidence comes from.  It is this same exploration that leads to the conclusion that Zeus is not real, Thor is not real, Allah is not real, and all the others.  You simply don't have the truth here.  You are wrong.  Sorry. 
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: MadBunny on November 21, 2009, 10:54:17 AM
Unlike people who don't believe in an afterlife, we know that this is the only opportunity we get.  That makes it valuable beyond measure.  Whereas you christians believe this this is merely a blinking of the eyes, and that the world is going to end soon anyway making life cheap beyond measure.



[
Although there are numerous flaws and contradictions with science in the christian faith, you present a very bad argument. You appear to be driven by a very hostile attitude to what you belive to be christian ignorance, which leads you to jump to very powerful conclusions with really no evidence to back it up. You only give reasons to not be a christian. You give no reasons why one should be an athiest.


(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k150/madbunny_2006/nonplusscat.png)
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: DaBungalow on November 21, 2009, 10:59:06 AM
You seem to be attacking atheists as they are perceived in America (religion hating, bigoted, smug, arrogant, pretentious toss-rags) rather than the actual videos.

Quote
If there is no God in any sense, what possible reason could you have for not killing yourself. A simple question, to which i am absolutely confident you cannot present me an answer.

...atheist hating, bigoted, smug, arrogant pretentious toss-rag.
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: GetMeThere on November 21, 2009, 11:05:53 AM
Let me put it this way for you sir, If there is no God in any sense, what possible reason could you have for not killing yourself.

It's that thought, lurking in the minds of a substantial fraction of believers, that scares the crap out of me. Ultimately, people who have a BASIS FOR THOUGHT like that are capable of ANYTHING.

"What reason do you have for not killing yourself" is actually only slightly different from "Here, I'll save you the trouble, and put you out of your misery."

It never ceases to puzzle me how people could find life impossible to face unless they can believe they are puppets created by a puppetmaster...
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: Timtheskeptic on November 21, 2009, 01:04:59 PM
Why do i not kill myself?

I want to do many things in my life and have absolutely no interest in dying anytime soon. I don't plan on french kissing any deities' asshole.
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: Emily on November 21, 2009, 01:48:52 PM
Here's an argument: Why wont god heal amputees? Watch the video, browse the site. That's the argument. If there is a god, and if he does answer prayers then he'd surely be able to heal amputees.

To help you understand why this question is so important, let's look at an example. Let's imagine that you visit your doctor one day, and he tells you that you have cancer. Your doctor is optimistic, and he schedules surgery and chemotherapy to treat your disease. Meanwhile, you are terrified. You don't want to die, so you pray to God day and night for a cure. The surgery is successful, and when your doctor examines you again six months later the cancer is gone. You praise God for answering your prayers. You totally believe with all your heart that God has worked a miracle in your life.

The obvious question to ask is: What cured you? Was it the surgery/chemotherapy, or was it God? Is there any way to know whether God is playing a role or not when we pray?

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/important.htm

It doesn't really matter which god you pray too because they'd all have the ability, in their omnipotentness, to preform some kind of miracle.

Quote
Let me put it this way for you sir, If there is no God in any sense, what possible reason could you have for not killing yourself.

I'm sure my fiance would miss me. I don't want to him to be sad. The reason is because I have feelings for those around me who I love.

And you say the website has a bad arguement :-\
Title: Re: Everbody who commented on 'you present a very bad argument' [#2076]
Post by: Iriquois Pliskin on November 21, 2009, 06:30:54 PM
Im the guy who initially wrote this comment on a video on you tube.

The author took the liberty of posting it here. First off, I am not, and have never been religous. The comment was structured to critisize the video it was posted on. I am really quite suprised (pleased?) with the amount and detail of the responses posted. However, i still feel the my point on 'If you are atheist why don't you kill yourself' has been left somewhat open. Somebody use an example with numbers (2 + 2 = 4).

Allow me to retort. Lets take a theroretical example. Sombody wants you to write an equation, using any numbers or operations you wish, that start and ends at zero. The possibilities are quite literally infinite. However, one solution is quite simply 0 = 0. Now, if the athiest viewpoint is that life ends in nothing, why bother with a lengthy equation, if in the end the result is the same.

You could, i suppose argue that you live on in your influence to the world, through people, material, and, for a privilledged few, knowledge. However, these only matter to other people, whom, like you are bound to a destiny of emptiness. Why bother, when the end result is the same. This was the question to which i am yet to be given an answer.

It feels as if, becoming an athiest, you succomb to a life a no purpose. If i, and all other are only to eventually fade into non-existence, why should i care about them, or further still, why should i care about me. From your perspective, i belive, its a choice between false security, an the bitter truth. Somewhat like the matrix, blue pill or red pill? (i forget which is which). I guess atheists took the pill the winds up in the real word. But, compared to the luxuries of the matrix, it kind of sucks dosent it?

You tell me.

(by the way, how do i get a reference box for quoting othe peoples comments?)
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: Ananukia on November 21, 2009, 06:36:32 PM
You make your own purpose, just because one day I will die and be forgotten does not mean I wish to slit my throat and die. Christians believe they will live forever in a magical kingdom where their every want is granted.

It is the religious who should be looking for death, because it is they who think this world is meaningless, a test.
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: Emily on November 21, 2009, 06:36:53 PM
Quote
(by the way, how do i get a reference box for quoting othe peoples comments?)

Welcome to the site. To quote, just click this button above the smilies: (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/Themes/default/images/bbc/quote.gif)

and copy what you want to quote in between the tags.

For more help here is a thread about quoting;

Quoting FAQ
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=4259.0

there is also the test area (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?board=28.0) if you want to test any other features.
Title: Re: Everbody who commented on 'you present a very bad argument' [#2076]
Post by: MadBunny on November 21, 2009, 06:38:16 PM
Im the guy who initially wrote this comment on a video on you tube.

The author took the liberty of posting it here. First off, I am not, and have never been religous. The comment was structured to critisize the video it was posted on. I am really quite suprised (pleased?) with the amount and detail of the responses posted. However, i still feel the my point on 'If you are atheist why don't you kill yourself' has been left somewhat open. Somebody use an example with numbers (2 + 2 = 4).

Allow me to retort. Lets take a theroretical example. Sombody wants you to write an equation, using any numbers or operations you wish, that start and ends at zero. The possibilities are quite literally infinite. However, one solution is quite simply 0 = 0. Now, if the athiest viewpoint is that life ends in nothing, why bother with a lengthy equation, if in the end the result is the same.

You could, i suppose argue that you live on in your influence to the world, through people, material, and, for a privilledged few, knowledge. However, these only matter to other people, whom, like you are bound to a destiny of emptiness. Why bother, when the end result is the same. This was the question to which i am yet to be given an answer.

It feels as if, becoming an athiest, you succomb to a life a no purpose. If i, and all other are only to eventually fade into non-existence, why should i care about them, or further still, why should i care about me. From your perspective, i belive, its a choice between false security, an the bitter truth. Somewhat like the matrix, blue pill or red pill? (i forget which is which). I guess atheists took the pill the winds up in the real word. But, compared to the luxuries of the matrix, it kind of sucks dosent it?

You tell me.

(by the way, how do i get a reference box for quoting othe peoples comments?)


Now that you're registered all you have to do is to click the 'quote' button to the top right of each post that you wish to reply to.

Alternatively you can simply type {quote} paste their comments {/quote}  only using brackets [ ]  instead.
What you wind up with is

Quote
paste their comments
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: jetson on November 21, 2009, 06:38:32 PM
Welcome.  There is a quote feature at the top right of each post.  There is also a quote tool called "insert quote" when you are in edit mode.  Hover over each tool button to see what each does, including one that allows you to link to a URL.

Please understand that the reality of killing yourself is that you no longer exist, especially to those who do not believe in an afterlife.  For that reason, it seems like a very bad idea to kill yourself.  I know of no atheists who would contemplate this.  The even sadder part is that theists seem to think that because there is life after death, they have everything to look forward to - but that would only occur AFTER their own natural death - assuming it happens at all.  So why don't theists just kill themselves to get there faster?  I know, God doesn't condone killing ones self in order to get to heaven!

Welcome to the forum!
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: DaBungalow on November 21, 2009, 06:39:32 PM
Quote
From your perspective, i belive, its a choice between false security, an the bitter truth.

That's your idea of my perspective. I came from nothing, I'm going back to nothing, why would I throw away the precious time I have on this planet?
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: Emily on November 21, 2009, 06:44:51 PM
Quote
If i, and all other are only to eventually fade into non-existence, why should i care about them, or further still, why should i care about me

Life is what you make of it. It has nothing to do with what religion you follow. The Muslims are capable of living a happy life believing they will go to their heaven, and the Christians will live a happy life believe when they die they go to theirs. The atheists are able to live a happy life also, without the need of thinking that when you die you will just rot in the ground.

Life has a purpose: It's what you make of your life. It sounds like you think atheists have a nihilistic world view - well they don't.

Here is a statement that I think fits;

Quote
For myself, I think it's pretty obvious that ethics/morals in general (specific, cultural nuances notwithstanding) are partially innate, fostered by environmental factors. I believe in the not-so-distant future this will be borne out by cross-cultural brain studies, including mapping out the areas that give rise to these higher 'instincts'.

We have the inherent ability to empathize with others and do so with animals - to the degree that they have a similar appearance. Through empathy, we feel the pain of others as pain, a proxy noxious experience that we seek to avoid or alleviate.

Clearly, there are exceptions - mob behavior, deviants - but these represent either an us/them scenario (in which the 'them' is rendered 'other' and dehumanized) or the exception that proves the rule.

Ultimately, I think ethics/culture and innate 'morals' arose as the co-products of evolution - groups that took care of each other were more hardy in the face of adversity and thus more likely to leave offspring.
http://blog.videosift.com/gwiz665/Atheist-answers-Where-do-our-morals-come-from
Title: Re: Everbody who commented on 'you present a very bad argument' [#2076]
Post by: GetMeThere on November 21, 2009, 06:52:21 PM
Allow me to retort. Lets take a theroretical example. Sombody wants you to write an equation, using any numbers or operations you wish, that start and ends at zero. The possibilities are quite literally infinite. However, one solution is quite simply 0 = 0. Now, if the athiest viewpoint is that life ends in nothing, why bother with a lengthy equation, if in the end the result is the same.

Here is the flaw in that:

1) Your argument essentially says that unless one can "live" for eternity there is no point in living.

2) But what IS living in eternity? Well, it says nothing about TODAY. Living for eternity means exactly that you KNOW you will be alive tomorrow. The only thing that is different between someone who can die at any time and someone who will live for eternity is that the second person KNOWS he will be alive tomorrow. It's the only difference.

3) Thus, what you are saying is that you can't have meaning as you exist TODAY, unless you know you'll be alive TOMORROW. But if the only MEANING in being alive today is the KNOWLEDGE that you will be alive tomorrow--then...what you really...."want" is somehow always something that you will "have" TOMORROW and never TODAY.

The idea that Monday can only be meaningful if you know you will be alive Tuesday is inherently absurd. Indeed, for most thoughtful people, knowing they would be dead tomorrow would make today quite a meaningful one indeed!
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: GetMeThere on November 21, 2009, 06:55:26 PM
OR....(hehehe). Unless you believe you will be presented with 72 willing perpetual virgins in heaven, why bother having sex or love now?

Unless you know you will never get divorced, why bother getting married?

Unless you know that your child will live a long and healthy life, why bother having a child?
Title: Response to 'Get me there'
Post by: Iriquois Pliskin on November 21, 2009, 07:05:36 PM
Get me there'

You are somewhat correct

Death gives meaning to life. As without it a life, without the fear of death, without knowledge of an an 'end', would be numb.

But is this not a paradox? Because...

Death (inevitable ceased exicitence of the induvidual) makes life pointless (this is of course where we disagree)

For now, I stay true to my point, 'When the end result is always the same, the means whereby don't matter'. Of course, im certianlly open to change, with appropriate convincing. It seems a rather depressing existence to hold this viewpoint does it not!?! (Oh how i suffer...) (LOL)
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: Ananukia on November 21, 2009, 07:09:25 PM
Does eating a cake, and knowing that that whence you eat the cake it will be gone, make the cake taste less wonderful?
Title: Re: Response to 'Get me there'
Post by: GetMeThere on November 21, 2009, 07:28:11 PM
Get me there'

You are somewhat correct

Death gives meaning to life. As without it a life, without the fear of death, without knowledge of an an 'end', would be numb.

No, I don't agree with that. Death can serve as a good reminder that the feeling that you will always be here tomorrow is an ILLUSION. It can help you FOCUS on meaning instead of the negative.


Quote
For now, I stay true to my point, 'When the end result is always the same, the means whereby don't matter'.

Well, I won't mention how that could serve as a reason to avoid lovemaking and eating, for example. Nor will I mention the joys of taking a "scenic route" on a long trip.

Because you are correct from some perspectives. Think of a prisoner in prison for life. He thinks of escape. If he could somehow KNOW that all his attempts to escape would fail it WOULD be pointless to keep trying them, of course. But would it be pointless to try to make friends with others? To try to be kind to others who were suffering, who he might be able help? To help a friend who he knew was innocent get a better lawyer? To work in the kitchen and think of better recipes, etc., so the food was more enjoyable? To read books with amazing stories or great insights?

But the more direct answer to your question is simply the experience of atheists[1]. Do you REALLY believe that being in love, seeing their children born and grow and be happy, accomplishing a difficult or meaningful task, seeing the beauty of nature, or the advancement of human knowledge and works; that these things bring no meaning or satisfaction to atheists?

You're just completely wrong, and that doesn't require argument, debate, or logic. It's discoverable directly from observation.
 1. And if you include the Chinese among atheists, for example, you're talking about the experiences of MOST of the people who have ever lived throughout history, and a culture which in many respects has been the most advanced and peaceful society to ever exist. I think some christians have the shortsighted idea that atheists are just a small group of modern, disaffected and grumpy intellectuals.
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: Agga on November 21, 2009, 07:30:32 PM
bm
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: Dkit on November 21, 2009, 07:37:56 PM
Though this may not apply to this argument, I think it does say something about the Chritian mentality. 

I visited Rapture Ready yesterday to read the buzz about the new EU President.  One thread consisted mostly of Christians wishing this life to end so they could go live with Jesus in heaven.  They stated repeatedly that they couldn't wait until Jesus came back to reclaim his children because they were tired of this world.  They also talked about how they had the same rapture conversation last year before the holidays and couldn't understand why he hadn't come back yet. 

I think this mentality is very sad indeed.  They are wasting their life waiting for an event that will never happen.  They will grow old wishing their live away waiting for the godman to take them to paradise. 
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: mrbiscoop on November 21, 2009, 07:42:17 PM
Though this may not apply to this argument, I think it does say something about the Chritian mentality. 

I visited Rapture Ready yesterday to read the buzz about the new EU President.  One thread consisted mostly of Christians wishing this life to end so they could go live with Jesus in heaven.  They stated repeatedly that they couldn't wait until Jesus came back to reclaim his children because they were tired of this world.  They also talked about how they had the same rapture conversation last year before the holidays and couldn't understand why he hadn't come back yet. 

I think this mentality is very sad indeed.  They are wasting their life waiting for an event that will never happen.  They will grow old wishing their live away waiting for the godman to take them to paradise. 
Bunch of cretins.
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: Dragnet on November 21, 2009, 07:47:54 PM
Book Mark.

I am interested in this viewpoint.
I am having some trouble understanding how or why anyone would think that way.
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: MadBunny on November 21, 2009, 08:17:29 PM
They stated repeatedly that they couldn't wait until Jesus came back to reclaim his children because they were tired of this world.  They also talked about how they had the same rapture conversation last year before the holidays and couldn't understand why he hadn't come back yet. 

We tend to see this more than average I think, probably because we're attuned to it from talking about it and thinking about how religion impacts our society.

I think that anybody who actually believes that the end of the world is a good thing has a major problem.  People who actively work toward making that happen, whether it be through a conspiracy to get control over WMD, or breeding the perfect red calf deserve less than zero respect.  Over tens of thousands of years humanity has wondered what happens when you die, occasionally there will be some cultists that just kill themselves off to take a look, but mostly people have a natural reticence to die.  Those who have spent their lives training themselves that death is a good thing, that it's just the gateway to eternity and all sorts of wonderful candyland stuff awaits are dangerous.
Title: Re: Response to 'Get me there'
Post by: Astreja on November 22, 2009, 01:12:13 AM
Death gives meaning to life. As without it a life, without the fear of death, without knowledge of an an 'end', would be numb.

I disagree, IP.  I practice mindfulness meditation on occasion, and when doing so I'm engrossed in the present moment.  The future is irrelevant to the process, as is the prospect of death, because my meaning is in the here and now.
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: kin hell on November 22, 2009, 02:44:04 AM
bad arguement needs spanking
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: Max Kodan on November 22, 2009, 04:05:43 AM
Although there are numerous flaws and contradictions with science in the christian faith, you present a very bad argument. You appear to be driven by a very hostile attitude to what you belive to be christian ignorance, which leads you to jump to very powerful conclusions with really no evidence to back it up. You only give reasons to not be a christian. You give no reasons why one should be an athiest. Let me put it this way for you sir, If there is no God in any sense, what possible reason could you have for not killing yourself. A simple question, to which i am absolutely confident you cannot present me an answer.

Don't take this the wrong way, i don't dissaprove of your videos or what you are doing, but you are far too confident in your arguments.

And you don't present any argument whatso- ...Wait...

Quote
If there is no God in any sense, what possible reason could you have for not killing yourself.

Oh, geez, this again?  You honestly don't think that I can't come up with an answer?  Ok, here's a couple, smart ass: 

I don't kill myself because I know that other people's feelings would be hurt.

I don't kill myself because it would achieve nothing positive for anyone, besides one or two theists, but why give them the pleasure?

I don't kill myself because I don't know enough yet:  I still have questions and I don't want to leave until I've got some good answers.  Scientific ones, of course.

I don't kill myself because I have no reason to.

I don't kill myself because it'd probably hurt.

That enough for you?
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: DL on November 22, 2009, 07:59:23 AM
When you die, you die (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/god27.htm)

Quote
Understanding death

From the story in the previous section you can see that the idea of death is disturbing to children. Many adults never outgrow it, so death can also be disturbing to adults -- even to adults with Ph.D.s. These adults, of course, are acting like children.

You are not a child. Imagining a place called "heaven" does not change the central fact about the chemical reactions that drive your cells. You simply need to grow up and face death like an adult, in the same way that you face other childhood traumas.

It is quite beneficial to see your mortality for what it is. A week or two from now, when you are thinking like an adult about death, the truth about death will begin to change your self-image and the way that you imagine the future. Religion and its concept of an afterlife skew your thinking by making you believe that you will live forever. You will not. You've got 70 or 80 years if you are lucky, and then you are gone forever.

At the simplest level, an understanding of your permanent mortality should help you to realize more clearly how precious your life is. If you live to be 82 years old, what you have is approximately 30,000 days of existence. You are not going to then commute to "heaven" to live for eternity. 30,000 days is all that you've got.

Here are some of the things in your thinking that will change once you understand and accept this simple fact:

    * Your time on earth becomes much more precious to you.

    * You begin to realize that everyone else's life is just as precious, and you start looking at them differently.

    * You think more about what you are leaving behind when you die.

    * You think more about the human species as a continuum, with yourself as a part of that continuum, and you start thinking about the future of our species and the planet.

Like it or not, your total experience is here on earth. That realization should make you see a day wasted in line at the Department of Motor Vehicles, or a week wasted preparing your taxes for the IRS, a little differently. All that you have is 30,000 days. Everyone who wastes your time -- every bureaucracy, every long line at the store -- should give you pause.

When you die, what is your legacy? What do you leave behind?

    * Whatever material objects you own, to be given to whomever you like in your will.

    * Whatever contributions you have made to society as a whole. If you have done research into the cure for cancer, you leave that. If you have written books or made movies, you leave them. If you funded a building at your university, you leave that.

    * Images of you in photographs and video, as well as any letters, writings or recordings.

    * Your children and their memories of you.

    * The memories you leave with your friends and family.

That's it. Now that you understand that your death is final, you may look at those things in a different light.
Title: Re: Response to 'Get me there'
Post by: JeffPT on November 22, 2009, 01:11:42 PM

Death gives meaning to life. As without it a life, without the fear of death, without knowledge of an an 'end', would be numb.


Then what is the meaning of heaven?  Heaven is a life without the fear of death or the knowledge of an end, is it not?  Are you saying that's numb too?  Maybe you should think about the consequences of an eternity without fear of death or knowledge of an end before you accept "heaven" as a positive thing. 

But is this not a paradox? Because...

Death (inevitable ceased exicitence of the induvidual) makes life pointless (this is of course where we disagree)


In terms of the entirety of the universe, yeah there is no master point to life.  It just is.  And it's freakin great.  Enjoy it while it lasts, because it is very likely that there is nothing more after it. 
 
For now, I stay true to my point, 'When the end result is always the same, the means whereby don't matter'. Of course, im certianlly open to change, with appropriate convincing. It seems a rather depressing existence to hold this viewpoint does it not!?! (Oh how i suffer...) (LOL)

Depressing or not, it's truth.  Ice cream makes you fat.  That's depressing, but also true.  Wishing ice cream didn't make you fat doesn't change it.   

The purpose of life is to be found in the journey, not at the beginning or the end. 

If you value your feelings over truth, go ahead and believe in god.  If you value truth over your feelings, then it is fine to realize there is nothing after this life.  Give me truth every time, regardless of the consequences.  Your ego is what keeps you from accepting that your existence has no intrinsic value to the universe as a whole.  You want to believe there is more, and so does everyone else (even us), but there is simply no reason to believe it's true.  It's just wishful thinking.  Once you realize that your existence is just a small part in a giant universe, you feel a little relieved.  Your problems never seem quite as big as they did before.  No matter what happens to you personally, the sun is going to rise tomorrow.  It's a comforting thought to know that you are just along for the ride.   
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: One Above All on November 22, 2009, 01:13:56 PM
iriquois pliskin... anyone know where this is from? if you do, check out some quotes from the 4th game and you'll see where this guy gets his stuff from
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: Xero-Kill on November 22, 2009, 02:23:03 PM
To follow the whole 0 = 0 analogy, I would say that you are correct. It would be the shortest route to the only conclusion. However, I contend that it is PRECISELY for that reason that I stick around. I know that the start is 0 and the end is 0... but I want to see what 1 through 9 has to offer while I have the chance... so I intend to make my equation as complex as possible.

Then again, there is pure animal instinct to consider as well... the will to survive is harder to overcome than one might think.
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: MadBunny on November 22, 2009, 03:18:07 PM
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k150/madbunny_2006/1158874001339s.jpg)
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: FSM on November 24, 2009, 01:13:49 PM
OK let's see if I've got this right:

1. God can do anything.
2. Jesus is God.
3. Jesus deliberately intended to be crucified.
3. Jesus deliberately allowed himself to be crucified despite the fact that he could have prevented it at any time.
5. The ultimate goal of Christians is to be like Jesus.

Since God can do anything, and Jesus is God, and Jesus intended to be crucified, and Jesus allowed himself to be crucified despite the fact that he could have prevented it at any time, he committed what we now call "suicide-by-cop" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_cop), a deliberate form of suicide.

THEREFORE:
1. Jesus committed suicide.
2. In order to be like Jesus, Christians must kill themselves (preferably by crucifixion).

Q.E.D.
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: CutePuppy on November 27, 2009, 06:39:36 PM
Let me put it this way for you sir, If there is no God in any sense, what possible reason could you have for not killing yourself. A simple question, to which i am absolutely confident you cannot present me an answer.

Im the guy who initially wrote this comment on a video on you tube.

The author took the liberty of posting it here. First off, I am not, and have never been religous. The comment was structured to critisize the video it was posted on. I am really quite suprised (pleased?) with the amount and detail of the responses posted. However, i still feel the my point on 'If you are atheist why don't you kill yourself' has been left somewhat open.

If you're not religious, doesn't that mean you don't believe that there is a god (biblegod) in any sense? So....why are you still alive? Why haven't you killed yourself yet? Why can't you answer your own question despite the fact that you're a living answer to your question?
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: Sister Chromatid on November 28, 2009, 01:07:30 AM
Although there are numerous flaws and contradictions with science in the christian faith, you present a very bad argument. You appear to be driven by a very hostile attitude to what you belive to be christian ignorance, which leads you to jump to very powerful conclusions with really no evidence to back it up. You only give reasons to not be a christian. You give no reasons why one should be an athiest. Let me put it this way for you sir, If there is no God in any sense, what possible reason could you have for not killing yourself. A simple question, to which i am absolutely confident you cannot present me an answer.

Don't take this the wrong way, i don't dissaprove of your videos or what you are doing, but you are far too confident in your arguments.

Although it is unlikely that your brain will comprehend the answer, there are many good answers as to why one wouldn't kill oneself.  The first is obvious.  Those who evolved a "will to live" passed on their genes more successfully than those who didn't.  We are their descendants.  We are afraid of dying.  We desire more life even when it sucks.

What I always wonder is how can Christians even have a kid when they know there is the possibility it can suffer forever.  And why wouldn't they have abortions or kill their children like Andrea Yates if it means that it ensures the kid's eternal happiness (by dying before he could become hell-worthy).  I'm not all-loving, and I would not create a child if I believed that child had even the remotest of a possibility of suffering FOREVER, and yet you worship a god who does so.  

Are you confident that Scientology is wrong?  Why?  How do you know?  How do you know Islam is wrong and that the Moonies are wrong and that rain dances don't work?  How do you know we shouldn't sacrifice virgins to get better crop yields?  How do you know the earth isn't flat?  It looks flat! How do you know gremlins aren't real and that invisible sprites aren't whispering secrets in your ear right now?  How confident are you and why?  Your answers to those question might give you real clues as to why I'm an atheist and why I am so confident.  

We know that humans are adept at fooling themselves when it comes to invisible agents; however, despite eons of such beliefs, we haven't amassed an iota of evidence that any kind of consciousness can exist absent a material brain.  That puts your god on the same plane as the proverbial emperor's new clothes.  He's as unlikely to exist as Xenu or the magical Mormon gold plates as far as the evidence is concerned. Tsk.

(http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/Billboard.jpg)
Title: Re: Response to 'Get me there'
Post by: Sister Chromatid on November 28, 2009, 01:23:12 AM
No matter what happens to you personally, the sun is going to rise tomorrow.  It's a comforting thought to know that you are just along for the ride.  

[pedant] Actually, the sun will appear to rise.  Science tells us that what is actually happening is that our part of the earth is rotating towards the sun once more as it revolves on its axis [/pedant]

I agree.  It's awesome that we are amongst the first humans to be able to understand this information and share it with others during the brief moment we get to be a conscious part of the universe.  
Title: Re: Response to 'Get me there'
Post by: MadBunny on November 28, 2009, 01:44:33 AM
Actually, the sun will appear to rise.  Science tells us that what is actually happening is that are part of the earth is rotating towards the sun once more as it revolves on its axis [/pedant]   

Well, to be truly stunningly pedantic, we don't know the sun will continue to burn tomorrow.
However, this is an instance where we can use past information to create a predictive scenario.  Just as you know that the last 500 times you've stuck the keys in your ignition and tried to start your car (assuming you have one) it will probably behave the same on the 501th try as the 488th try.

We know that the sun has been burning for millions of years.  We have studied it and think that we have a reasonable understanding of the mechanics involved on how it works, and thusly also; what it will continue to do.

Why bother being pedantic like this?  Because past behavior for something is also the greatest indicator of future behavior.  We know, for example that Jesus hasn't bothered to show up for the last couple thousand years, that's a pretty long period of past behavior.  We also have a good idea of the mechanics of why that is. (he's fictional)  It's probably a safe bet to say that he won't be showing up anytime soon.
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: Sister Chromatid on November 28, 2009, 02:04:23 AM
Agreed!

(and you win in pedantry too.) :P

(But you'd have been an even better pedant if you had caught my error in using "are" instead of "our" in addition to immortalizing my mistake in your response.)
Title: Re: you present a very bad argument [#2076]
Post by: JeffPT on November 28, 2009, 09:50:11 AM
I stand by my prediction that no matter what happens to me on this planet, the sun will (appear to) rise tomorrow :)  No matter how pedantic you wanna get :)  It was obviously more of a statement alluding to the fact that time is extremely likely to go on, regardless of what happens to me.  And that thought gives me comfort.  It lets me know that I hold no major role in the survival and existence of this universe, and I am free to enjoy this life as I see fit.  My piddly little problems seem much less important than I think they are.  The thing that upsets me is the thought that I will not get to see how this planet continues to evolve into the future.  I would love nothing more than to see what life is like here in another million years, when all my molecules belong to different things again.