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General Religious Discussion / Re: Why Worship?
« Last post by kevinagain on March 21, 2018, 03:07:44 PM »
sure, albeto. first, i think if you believe this applies to me, you don't know what you're talking about.

I see what you mean with "non-theist." What's wrong with using the word atheist to denote a lack of belief? That is, literally, what atheism means. Using words like "agnostic" in hopes of getting a pass from criticism seems predictably dishonest and self-serving.

i choose the term agnostic because it expresses an uncertainty that i associate with an intelligent analysis of tbe question. so called "strong atheists," in my opinion, are often idiots who express no doubts over things of which tbey have only partial understanding. there are exveptions, and tbey can be onteresting to learn from. but they are rare.

in my case, i once accepted tbe quaker belief in an active, immanent deity. i had various leadings and shared experiences which seemed to me to be supernatural in origin. doeznt matter what they were. the usual. since that time, tbe leadings have ceased, and i now doubt that tbey were genuinely divine in tbd first place. but should they return in a more certain manner, i wojld have no problem in revisiting a belief in god. i do not know there is no god, and "athiest" is a tsfm with so much baggage that i dont care to associate myself with them without qualifications tbat many object to.

what about you? why is tbe label important? is it because it provides a club of congenial travellers with an easy entrance test, just tbe use of a term for oneself? or is tbere more to it? what is it that you tbink? not what you have no belief in, but what you do?
Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Fraud is a broad term that refers to a variety of offenses involving dishonesty or "fraudulent acts". In essence, fraud is the intentional deception of a person or entity by another made for monetary or personal gain. Fraud offenses always include some sort of false statement, misrepresentation, or deceitful conduct.

Most governments and countries have fraud laws of some kinds. They generally interfere with religious fraudsters only when physical harm is being done to our gullible citizens yet ignore the monetary theft that the fraudsters fleece from their victims. Prosperity ministries are the most flagrant of these immoral religions, but all religions based on demonstrable lies would be included in this question.

Our governments are quite good at acting against obvious fraudsters yet seem reluctant to protect our more gullible citizens when it comes down to religions.

Religions, to me, get a free pass to lie and steal all they can from victims, especially the older citizens even when governments know about the fraud.

I begin to see the inaction of governments on these religious fraudsters as a dereliction of duty.

Do you?

General Religious Discussion / Re: Winning over Pro-Lifers
« Last post by albeto on March 21, 2018, 10:50:13 AM »
We are talking about terminating a pregnancy, not killing a baby. You do know the difference, yes?

To  YRM_DM, herein lies the belief that is assumed true, the belief that is too sacred for many to part with: The idea that a developing fetus and a baby are identical things. This is not based on fact but on belief. When exploring the reasons for that belief, you'll find some example of faulty logic that rationalizes it. Identifying and articulating those flaws models how critical thinking can be applied even to beliefs long assumed to be true.

Parenthetically, I suspect it's the result of hearing simple explanations and emotional appeals over and over and over. It works by the same process as Ken Ham's "were you there" shtick that encourages people to stop the discussion, stop the logical thought process that works out the problem rationally, so they can continue to believe in what they wish were true. I think this is how it's been successfully politicized, and I suspect it's been politicized simply for convenience - to consolidate otherwise unrelated factions to work against progress that would otherwise undermine traditional privilege.
General Religious Discussion / Re: Mike Pence / ISIS
« Last post by Emma286 on March 21, 2018, 10:44:50 AM »
i had a rotated cervical vertebra--number 6-- that was pinching a nerve because the foramina didn't align. i couldn't hold my head vertical because the pain was so bad. xrays confirmed the problem. no money for surgery. bone crackers i tried couldn't help. neck was worn out like an old car's suspension.

went to a soft tissue chiropractor-- that's what she was called-- who worked with it once a week, massaging the muscles that supported my neck. one side was probably tetanic, but i don't remember the details. eventually she got the muscles to pull the vertebra back into line, taught me exercises to keep the muscle tension on it correctly, and it hasn't bothered me since.

took about ten one-hour sessions. i didn't have any money, but i was a beekeeper, so i paid her in jars of honey.

Interesting to learn!

Could it have happened that this lady was also a Physiotherapist? Or that she used to practice as one?

Suddenly just leapt into my head that maybe (emphasising the maybe, I don’t know of course and maybe it’s not the case for all I know) physiotherapy is sometimes used alongside other techniques here and perhaps that’s what makes the difference - in cases where patients experience genuine improvements with problematic symptoms...

hi emma.  howve you been?

sorry i missed this before. she wasnt a physiotherapist, whatever else she might have been, as i understand it. her work consizted of actaully manipulating the vertebrae, to grt them to line back up correctly. she had me xray my neck to get a better view of the misalignment, and then put the bones back into place with her hands. the exercises were to get more nuscle tone in an area where the occluding surfaces were mostly worn out. there was no theory or philosophy or long term visits. worked for me, though. i was eating enough painkillers to kill my liver, and normally i dont even take painkillers for minor surgery.

Can't believe that this possibility has only just hit me! Are you Kevin from IGI? :-)

I've been okay thanks. Feeling like my head's kind of all over the place at the moment, as haven't long moved into my boyfriend's place (it wasn't originally going to be this early, but circumstances changed and everything happened pretty quickly) and still getting a bunch of stuff sorted out and organised. Still, am sure that things will settle down soon enough!

Hoping that all has been okay with you?

Thanks for sharing further information about your experience. Interesting to hear again! Can't say that I knew anything about Chiropractic, as a form of alternative medicine, before hearing about it here, and looking up a bit about it.

Am glad that you experienced the symptom relief that you did. For one, I am not inclined to disbelieve your story or Jag's anyways. If you both tried this kind of treatment out and experienced getting better as a result then those were yours and Jag's experiences. Admittedly, I can't help wondering if the Chiropractic techniques were truly directly responsible or if there was somehow another factor involved (that's been overlooked). Still, not going to jump to any hasty conclusions!
General Religious Discussion / Re: Why Worship?
« Last post by albeto on March 21, 2018, 10:24:43 AM »
in my case, i reserve tbe decision az currently unknowable, bazdd on the evidence i have. i call that agnosticism, and am quite happy leaving it at tbat unless someone actually wants to know what i think. arguing over labels doesnt address substance in any way i find useful.

I want to know what you think. Not what you don't think, but what you do.
General Religious Discussion / Re: Mike Pence / ISIS
« Last post by Emma286 on March 21, 2018, 10:18:36 AM »
Occurs to me that if I'd been asked that kind of question last week, it almost certainly would have happened that an image of Jerome Ehlers would have immediately come to mind for me - as I'd just rewatched Bangkok Hilton (and his performance always leaves a pretty strong chilling impact on me when I watch that) and the character he played in it is involved in drug trafficking![1]

In cae nobody is familiar with the guy, he was an Australian actor!
 1. It's never made clear as to whether or not his character is involved in actual drug dealing, but my mind still would have associated him with the term.

What's wrong with his face? Looks like one of those lizard people that control the world.

I think I can sort of see what you mean, come to think of it. Can't say I have any clue as to what he was like in real life when still alive!
General Religious Discussion / Re: Winning over Pro-Lifers
« Last post by YRM_DM on March 21, 2018, 10:10:01 AM »
It's not always cut and dry to prevent pregnancy.

Birth control methods fail.   Health risks do happen.

What I'm seeing a lot in later middle age is many of my friends have had near misses with late life pregnancies.   

-  Friends wife was bed ridden for 3 months due to late age pregnancy accident.
-  Another friends wife almost died in the hospital trying to have a baby that they did mean to have, but had health complications involving both parties.
-  Another friend and his wife using birth control had it fail during her menopause and she became pregnant with twins and almost died during a miscarriage.
-  Another guy's ex wife became pregnant while cheating, her body reacted poorly to late life pregnancy and she has since repeatedly battled cancer...  it's a really ugly situation what her illness has done to her... I'd never have recognized her.
-  I know two situations where a woman became pregnant due to a broken condom.  (thankfully not first hand)

What about a mom and dad who are getting by, but not easily... using birth control, already have a full house...  and she gets pregnant at a risky time?

Why shouldn't they have a right to say, "Enough is enough.  The 3-4 kids we do have will be better off with two healthy parents"?

It's a messy enough situation that any single government law about it isn't going to fit.   Given that, why not be "pro-choice" but encourage people to be responsible or consider adoption if that's the side you fall on?   You'd still potentially be encouraging what you feel are responsible decisions, but clumsy legislation wouldn't ham hand every situation into the same box.

Whenever the government passes laws forbidding things or trying to achieve things... there are always people hurt by unintended consequences of well meaning laws.   To what extent possible, people should be free to live their own lives...   marry who they want, have kids when they want, free to speak their minds, free to debate without fear, etc.   

It's not always cut and dry where, say, someone is out there having unprotected sex over and over...   plenty of responsible people end up in tough situations.
General Religious Discussion / Re: Winning over Pro-Lifers
« Last post by junebug72 on March 21, 2018, 08:20:32 AM »
Individuals can decide not to get pregnant. That's the big ole gigantic hurdle that a pro-choice argument ignores. There is no outside force causing humans to make babies. Take control of your life.

I wish I had more time, but I have things to do today.

Hope your day is wonderful.

Peace out.
General Religious Discussion / Re: Why Worship?
« Last post by kevinagain on March 21, 2018, 08:00:29 AM »
I've been observing a substance recovery group for my final assignment in HSE-122. One of the most emphasized skill is being respectful of diversity in groups. The group I'm observing is diverse. Two members had a spiritual experience that felt like a higher power had taken control of their lives. Another member, a gay man, he don't believe in gods.

The point I'm trying to make here is: Some people need to believe in a Higher Power to feel like they have control over natural forces beyond their control.

intrresting. i once knew a very articulate (and funny) atheist who called himself vynn. he had no belief in deities, but described states of mind and experience tbat he chose to call spiritual. i have no problem with spiritualify without spirit, so to speak, but the words are cumbersome when you try to force them to describe things they werent invented for. vynn took off and disappeared before i could get him to explain more about what he was experiencing.
General Religious Discussion / Re: Why Worship?
« Last post by kevinagain on March 21, 2018, 07:48:23 AM »
I've never said I have it all figured out.  Please do show that if you think it is true, if you aren't simply making a false claim to avoid a point.   We've ended up back where you make a false claim about me and then using it to avoid answering questions and points.  That's what happened before too.,20789.msg471918.html#msg471918   More false claims to avoid a discussion that you don't like where it is going for your side.

velkyn, three points of my own. first, when you spend an entire post lecturing someone about something you never heard of, its a reasonable observation to make that you think you have it figured out. if you dont, i invite you to confess your ignorance and ask questions, rather than make accusations.

second, regarding posts from years ago, i dont obsess over you tbe way you apparently have obsessed over me. i have no idea what we spoke of years ago, and do not need to relive my past.

third, and this is the only conversation i will pursue with you, the fact tbat you have a row of neat boxes into which you need to fit people does not interest me. i have found people to be more complex in tbeir tbinking and experience than neat boxes encompass. nontheist quakerism is like that. tbere's variety, contradictions, and braided streams of belief and lack of it. no tidy little box fits everybody. some nontheist friends are hardcore atheists, others are pantheists. some are explicit theravadans.

in my case, i reserve tbe decision az currently unknowable, bazdd on the evidence i have. i call that agnosticism, and am quite happy leaving it at tbat unless someone actually wants to know what i think. arguing over labels doesnt address substance in any way i find useful.
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