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Science / Murder among orangutans
« Last post by jynnan tonnix on February 06, 2016, 09:36:33 PM »
Found this interesting...I wonder what it says about the similarities and differences between humans and other apes, the nature of sin and murder etc...It seems that there's some fairly complex social interaction going on here.

Any theists want to weigh in on this?

Researchers have for the first time witnessed the death of a female orangutan at the hands of another female. Even more extraordinary is that the perpetrator recruited a male orangutan as a hired gun to help her corner and attack the victim. Before this observation, lethal fights between females had never been observed in orangutans; in other primates such fights occur mainly between males
Chatter / Re: Why do athiests discuss God?
« Last post by eh! on February 06, 2016, 09:36:15 PM »
Thank you.
Chatter / Re: Why do athiests discuss God?
« Last post by Mr. Blackwell on February 06, 2016, 09:26:09 PM »
I stand in awe by the intellectual magnitude and earth shaking, mind blowing spiritual and natural insight proffered by the mental giants participating in this thread[1]. I am humbled.
 1. Sans Jetson
The description in the Bible of the despicable acts carried out by the Deity "God" shows anger,rage,murder and outright abandoning of his creation. Just because you have the ability to create something does not show love,actions do. This Deity you claim as God "created" something,but hardly showed it what love was.

 How do you explain the fact that 'God' loved all when he chose a certain group to become his subjects? The Bible also suggests his followers kill others,sound like love?
Evolution & Creationism / Re: life sustaining planets
« Last post by Basset Hound on February 06, 2016, 09:12:46 PM »
If we had evolved on a methane ammonia atmosphere planet, then we would consider that normal and wonder if live could exist on oxygen/nitrogen planets.  Once again creotards, the Universe is NOT fine tuned for life.  Life is fine tuned to the universe, in particular, the planet it originated on.
Religion & Society / Re: The Immorality Of Christian Evangelism
« Last post by jaimehlers on February 06, 2016, 08:46:56 PM »
I don't know why you picked that particular statement, Graybeard, given that it was a response to someone else (jdawg) talking about how he might very well brag if he saved someone from a burning building, implying that she might have been bragging.  The actual point I was making is that it wouldn't be a good idea to brag about things like that, especially to the relatives of the person one saved.  So if you could explain why you springboarded off of that, I would appreciate it.

Anyway, I wasn't saying he didn't have a right to be angry, Graybeard.  I was saying that he was playing into an existing stereotype by writing an angry response to her, and that it would just feed any persecution complex she might have as a Christian.  There are more effective ways to oppose behavior such as this.  To put it bluntly, I don't agree that getting obviously angry (however justified it may be) at such people is going to do enough good to be worth the trouble it brings with it.  I see the "angry atheist" as detracting from the goal, not helping it along.

Unlike a lot of people, I know just how bitter the fruits of getting angry at bad treatment ultimately are.  Because I had to deal with lots of bad treatment when I was young, years and years of it, and getting angry at those responsible, even if it was tightly-controlled, plain and simply didn't help.  It just made things worse.  Not just that it didn't stop the bad treatment, but the side-effects that backlashed on me as a result of my own behavior.

Note that I'm not saying that it's wrong to oppose such things.  But the opposition can't play into established stereotypes that the majority - who are Christians, remember - can easily exploit.  Even at the very best, that ends up being two steps forward and a step back.  More often, it's more like two steps back, or even three.
Religion & Society / Re: The Immorality Of Christian Evangelism
« Last post by Graybeard on February 06, 2016, 07:40:26 PM »
First off, if I saved someone from dying, I wouldn't be bragging about it - certainly not to his relatives.
I don't think the woman saved anyone - she "converted" someone to Christianity whilst he was dying - though what that really means and whether it worked, given the circumstances, is debatable.

Christians feel that people in difficulties are fair game - the very people to convert - they target them.

This is in itself immoral - it involves, as I see it, lying to, in this case, a dying person. We see that JT is annoyed that someone should do that (or claim to do that) to his father, who he must have known and known his beliefs.

It is also unbiblical and, in those circumstances, God is clear - you cannot be saved:

Proverb:1:24: Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
Proverb:1:25: But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
Proverb:1:26: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
Proverb:1:27: When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
Proverb:1:28: Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
Proverb:1:29: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
(The verses go on in the usual "Loving and Merciful God" way, but that's the gist.

The NT has verses that imply the same.

That aside, there's something else I thought of that I'd like to bring up.  Christians like to believe in the stereotype of the "angry atheist".  And, however justified, his response comes across as quite angry.  Doesn't that play right into the stereotype?  As does the nature of the response as well; Christians just love it when they can feel persecuted by those who oppose them.
There is room for angry atheists. There is room for people who are outraged at the treatment of their dying father.

Christians, and others who believe outlandish stories probably are encouraged by people saying, "I respect your beliefs." and have been throughout their lives and this confirms to them that they have been doing the right thing. They have not.

We know that peer-pressure is effective in moderating unreasonable behaviour and beliefs - you should see the angry atheist as doing the job. If everyone in the office tells the evangelist to "STFU" the problem, and his problem, are relieved, maybe solved.

You have seen how the religious right have been mobilised by people encouraging the expression of religion? You see how angry and partisan they can get? There has to be an opposition.

Evolution & Creationism / Re: Belly button
« Last post by Basset Hound on February 06, 2016, 07:21:35 PM »
Jesus was purple.  He had two belly buttons.  The reason that all portraits of Adam and Steve have belly buttons is the nartist couldn't conceive of a man without them.
Religion & Society / Re: The Immorality Of Christian Evangelism
« Last post by nogodsforme on February 06, 2016, 05:47:20 PM »
Yes, Christians think that there is no down side to pretending to be a Christian. No biggie that you do not believe any of it is true. Going through the motions is fine, even if you only do it to keep your job (a mercenary action based on monetary rewards).

It is certainly encouraged to keep the family peace. Atheists have risked losing child custody for not pretending to be Christians. Of course we should all bow our heads and pretend to pray along with Christian friends and relatives in public. Christians have even said to do otherwise than "go along" would be rude and disrespectful.[1]

But do Christians agree that we heathens should just "go along" and pretend to participate with other faiths? I have Buddhist relatives-- do Christians suggest that I go with them to the temple and chant to keep the peace in the family? I have Muslim friends. Should I go to the mosque and pretend to pray to Allah?[2]

Would they "go along" to make other people (Say, a Satanist group) feel comfortable? Or would they refuse and behave in a way that they themselves say is rude and disrespectful?

Cue some major hypocrisy and signs that religious freedom only means everyone is free to "go along" with something they do not believe--if it is the majority faith. It is okay to be rude and disrespectful to Muslims, Buddhists, and Satanists.

 1. Note the hoopla over total strangers (whose religion might not be Christianity) not saying the correct Christian-approved religious holiday greeting. I saw a bumper sticker that said "It's okay to say Merry Christmas." Who ever said it was not okay? Say it all you want. Say it in the middle of summer for all I care. It's okay to say Eid Mubarak, too. What is not okay is freaking out that someone else may not celebrate or believe in your religious festival.
 2. I have attended Vodun ceremonies as an observer, but did not participate or pray to their gods.....
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