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81
General Religious Discussion / Re: The most harmful religons
« Last post by velkyn on October 16, 2017, 03:11:46 PM »
Although BS and I have bumped heads plenty of times, I genuinely kind of like him. And he's among the few theists here that I think may someday be persuaded to look at our positions with a less biased lens. This is not to say that I think we will change his mind[1], but only that I think the possibility exists for him to gain some ACTUAL understanding our why we take the positions we do.
 1. nor is it my intention

I think I've said it a number of times in different ways but I don't think most folks believe me --> I do read, analyze, and process the arguments....more than you probably think. I have learned a great deal from participating in this forum. And, yes, whether you are willing to believe it or not, I do understand some of the positions being taken here....I just do not agree with most of them. I get where most of you are coming from.... but I think that if folks really took the time to think about whether there is logic behind the atheistic position, they may see where I am coming from. I am probably more open to consideration of what is said on here than folks may think but I do push back with passion at times to test the limits of the arguments

what is the logic behind a Christian of your sect position, BS?  You have yet to show any.   You have also not shown that atheism is illogical, just as you have yet to show that afairy-ism is illogical.  This why I don't think you have actually considered anyone's position at all since you keep coming back with the same old failed nonsense.  We've gone through the same stuff again and again, and you still think it has merit despite what you have been shown.

See, I think you are inferring that I support these parents decision and I am not saying that at all. I am only attempting to illustrate that the convictions of the parents may be as strong as those who oppose them. And, with that in mind, how do you make a literal, universal determination in the absence of any objective truth. I am going a little deeper with this than I think you are seeing. How does an atheist leverage their belief that parents are committing grievous acts when there is no objective standard or truth to back the position? It's a subjective judgment, correct?

Are you supporting them or not, BS?   Because it sure seems you are.   You are again trying that same nonsense in trying to claim that a subjective position is somehow unacceptable. I'm glad that humans have changed what they think.

You have no objective truth, and we know this because Christians have repeatedly changed their minds on what their god wants.  So, we're going with parents killing their kids from ignorance and selfishness as being a bad thing because it harms someone and takes away their ability to choose.  If you don't agree with that, then say so.   In any case, religion can seen to be harmful in this instance, unless you want to argue that being murdered isn't harmful.  Do you? 
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General Religious Discussion / Re: The most harmful religons
« Last post by BibleStudent on October 16, 2017, 03:08:01 PM »
I'm not inferring anything BS, I'm expressing my disgust with the argument you have chosen to use. That's all, nothing more, nothing less.

Thing is, Jag, I'm not a fan of children being part of the topic either but this example is frequently used by folks to make the argument that religion is harmful. jaimehlers introduced the argument, I didn't. I have only been interested in determining from a strictly logical perspective how this argument can carry more weight than the opposing argument.

Also, I'm not so sure I'm buying the sincerity of your disgust. After all, you are a pro-choice, right?

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General Religious Discussion / Re: Biblestudent - I bet it DOESN'T say that.
« Last post by BibleStudent on October 16, 2017, 02:52:00 PM »
it's that you are grabbing whatever you think will help your argument without actually considering if the claims of the article can be backed up.

Isn't that what my post did?...demonstrated that the "article can be backed up?"
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General Religious Discussion / Re: The most harmful religons
« Last post by Azdgari on October 16, 2017, 02:50:12 PM »
... And, with that in mind, how do you make a literal, universal determination in the absence of any objective truth. I am going a little deeper with this than I think you are seeing.

You have always avoided going deep on this topic.  I wonder if you'll do so again?

How does an atheist leverage their belief that parents are committing grievous acts when there is no objective standard or truth to back the position? It's a subjective judgment, correct?

Atheism is irrelevant to this.  How do you "leverage that belief", BS?  What authority do you have to determine your god to be "objective" moral truth?
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General Religious Discussion / Re: The most harmful religons
« Last post by Jag on October 16, 2017, 02:49:57 PM »
Although BS and I have bumped heads plenty of times, I genuinely kind of like him. And he's among the few theists here that I think may someday be persuaded to look at our positions with a less biased lens. This is not to say that I think we will change his mind[1], but only that I think the possibility exists for him to gain some ACTUAL understanding our why we take the positions we do.
 1. nor is it my intention

I think I've said it a number of times in different ways but I don't think most folks believe me --> I do read, analyze, and process the arguments....more than you probably think. I have learned a great deal from participating in this forum. And, yes, whether you are willing to believe it or not, I do understand some of the positions being taken here....I just do not agree with most of them. I get where most of you are coming from.... but I think that if folks really took the time to think about whether there is logic behind the atheistic position, they may see where I am coming from. I am probably more open to consideration of what is said on here than folks may think but I do push back with passion at times to test the limits of the arguments

 

And I think you often forget that most of us are former theists. We DO know the basis of your arguments, and I will continue to profess my belief that you do NOT get it yet, as long as you keep using such dipshittery as the argument you are deploying now about DEAD CHILDREN and subjectivity.
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General Religious Discussion / Re: The most harmful religons
« Last post by Jag on October 16, 2017, 02:47:40 PM »
However, if these determinations are made on a subjective basis with no universal standard to measure them against, who is to say that the subjective determinations of the parents who chose to avoid treatment for their children are truly harmful?


The DEAD CHILDREN.

Edited to add: I'm disgusted that you are using the "no one can truly know anything" argument to defend parent who allowed their children to die for lack of simple medical care. Jesus Christ man, try a little fucking harder or find a better example. You sound like an asshole with this crap.

See, I think you are inferring that I support these parents decision and I am not saying that at all. I am only attempting to illustrate that the convictions of the parents may be as strong as those who oppose them. And, with that in mind, how do you make a literal, universal determination in the absence of any objective truth. I am going a little deeper with this than I think you are seeing. How does an atheist leverage their belief that parents are committing grievous acts when there is no objective standard or truth to back the position? It's a subjective judgment, correct?

I'm not inferring anything BS, I'm expressing my disgust with the argument you have chosen to use. That's all, nothing more, nothing less.
87
General Religious Discussion / Re: The most harmful religons
« Last post by BibleStudent on October 16, 2017, 02:44:50 PM »
However, if these determinations are made on a subjective basis with no universal standard to measure them against, who is to say that the subjective determinations of the parents who chose to avoid treatment for their children are truly harmful?


The DEAD CHILDREN.

Edited to add: I'm disgusted that you are using the "no one can truly know anything" argument to defend parent who allowed their children to die for lack of simple medical care. Jesus Christ man, try a little fucking harder or find a better example. You sound like an asshole with this crap.

See, I think you are inferring that I support these parents decision and I am not saying that at all. I am only attempting to illustrate that the convictions of the parents may be as strong as those who oppose them. And, with that in mind, how do you make a literal, universal determination in the absence of any objective truth. I am going a little deeper with this than I think you are seeing. How does an atheist leverage their belief that parents are committing grievous acts when there is no objective standard or truth to back the position? It's a subjective judgment, correct?

 

88
General Religious Discussion / Re: The most harmful religons
« Last post by BibleStudent on October 16, 2017, 02:38:14 PM »
Although BS and I have bumped heads plenty of times, I genuinely kind of like him. And he's among the few theists here that I think may someday be persuaded to look at our positions with a less biased lens. This is not to say that I think we will change his mind[1], but only that I think the possibility exists for him to gain some ACTUAL understanding our why we take the positions we do.
 1. nor is it my intention

I think I've said it a number of times in different ways but I don't think most folks believe me --> I do read, analyze, and process the arguments....more than you probably think. I have learned a great deal from participating in this forum. And, yes, whether you are willing to believe it or not, I do understand some of the positions being taken here....I just do not agree with most of them. I get where most of you are coming from.... but I think that if folks really took the time to think about whether there is logic behind the atheistic position, they may see where I am coming from. I am probably more open to consideration of what is said on here than folks may think but I do push back with passion at times to test the limits of the arguments

 
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General Religious Discussion / Re: The most harmful religons
« Last post by Jag on October 16, 2017, 02:27:41 PM »
However, if these determinations are made on a subjective basis with no universal standard to measure them against, who is to say that the subjective determinations of the parents who chose to avoid treatment for their children are truly harmful?


The DEAD CHILDREN.

Edited to add: I'm disgusted that you are using the "no one can truly know anything" argument to defend parent who allowed their children to die for lack of simple medical care. Jesus Christ man, try a little fucking harder or find a better example. You sound like an asshole with this crap.
90
General Religious Discussion / Re: Biblestudent - I bet it DOESN'T say that.
« Last post by Jag on October 16, 2017, 02:21:07 PM »
Objection!

You're introducing a new item of support without addressing the arguments against your FIRST item. Based on that, I have to question if you did or did not do some investigating, and if so, what conclusions did you reach?

For the time being, I'm going to ask that your most recent link be ignored in favor of resolving what, exactly, we are doing in this thread.

You see, the point isn't so much that the original article is flawed - although it is, and quite badly - it's that you are grabbing whatever you think will help your argument without actually considering if the claims of the article can be backed up. Just like a bowl of poop doesn't turn into an ice cream sundae with the addition of some chocolate syrup and whipped cream, more garbage into this discussion isn't going to help until we finish the initial garbage dump.

Also, you are arguing against claims that have not been made. No one has said that religion has NOT or has NEVER BEEN beneficial - in fact, it may surprise you to discover that I can see lots of ways that religion is very good for individual people. That's not the argument being made in the original thread, nor is it relevant here.

I'm simply asking you to investigate the sources used in the article you researchedreferenced. It's perfectly all right with me if you refuse to do so. But it isn't a good look on you if you want to be taken seriously. That choice is yours to make.
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