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71
So then, what you're saying, is that you don't know what you actually meant.

No, it appears only you and Jag don't know what I mean.

Do you truly find it so difficult to communicate clearly that you refuse to simply explain when someone questions something you say? Do you REALLY think that it's conducive to productive dialogue for me or Adzgari to continue with this conversation filling in the blanks of what we think you mean, rather than you just finding a different way (directly, in my case) of saying what you actually mean for yourself?

It's not an unreasonable request. I'm simply asking you to stop relying on metaphors and analogies in favor of speaking clearly and directly about a given topic. Please try doing so.

No.  What I think is that you already know what I mean and you just want to make things more difficult.
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Again, nothing showing that the pharaoh hardened his own heart.


"When Phar?aoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart+ and he refused to listen to them, just as Jehovah had said." (Exodus 8:15)

"However, Phar?aoh again hardened his heart and did not send the people away." (Exodus 8:32)

As I pointed out, jst, your god takes responsibility for this.  You see that "just as Jehovah had said"?  Here is where he said it: Exodus 7 "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. 5 And the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it.”"

Yet the part about Pharoah hardening his own heart is still there.  I understand that is inconvenient for your argument so if you want to sweep that under the rug then go ahead.  I understand that's what you need to do in order to paint Pharoah as an innocent victim that had everyone's best interests in mind until God made him turn evil.

However, when you use that as a premise for an argument, you'll have to argue with someone that accepts that premise.

 
73

Because I'm asking for clarity. Trading one metaphor for another metaphor does not add clarity. I specifically asked for plain language, so replying with further metaphors is not helpful.

So now that I've addressed your post directly and specifically, with absolute clarity, will you try again, metaphor free please?

Okay.  When I say that Pharoah was hard hearted it means he didn't show anyone sympathy or pity.

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General Religious Discussion / Re: Theists, Do you pray before you post?
« Last post by CrystalDragon on Yesterday at 03:18:27 PM »
So to you, prayer is as irrational as an addiction? Its sole purpose is directed to you. You have done it so many times, youare unsure what you would do if you did not do that?

The guy who counts every paving slab on his way to work, or taps each railing as he passes it cannot stop - he feels compelled. If he did not do it, he would feel bad.

And you chant a prayer.

The prayer has no real meaning:"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of death. Amen."

Surely she only needs to be asked once...

I'm not saying prayer is irrational as an addiction, I could have worded it better:

Not only is prayer a way of acknowledging God, but, do you ever have one of those moments where you feel alone, and you wish that you had someone to talk to who patiently listens? I feel like prayer can be like that, giving thanks to God and asking for his help, or sometimes even just an ear to listen.
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That is exactly what IS and Boko Haram are doing. Jst, if you substitute Allah for Jehovah in the Moses story, is it still justifiable to you? Is Allah entitled to take revenge on people who disobey him and mistreat his followers?

If what IS is doing was actually from God then it would have been prophecied beforehand and we would have already had the finale.
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If the Egyptians had beat the Israelites, Jst would be worshiping Ra and the cat god right now, giving us the exact same rationale as he gives for worshiping Jehovah. Go with the winner, not with the one with the best value system.

The reason I worship Jehovah has nothing to do with the ancient Egypitians.  That's just you trying to make someone look bad.  Another reason to dislike atheist thinking.

Besides, not even the Egyptians worship those gods any longer.

And are you saying the Egyptians had a better value system?
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It wasn't personally Pharoah that was treating the Hebrews so harshly.  I find it sad there is so much compassion for the cruel Egyptians but none for the innocent people actually being abused by them.  They seem to be just swept under the rug.  It is like having compassion on  Nazis while forgetting those that they abused.

I wasn't saying there shouldn't be compassion for the Hebrews, far from it. In fact Exodus focuses on the Hebrews, so I'm not saying Pharaoh was in the right. I was simply making a point that not all of the Egyptian civilians were bad people—it's likely that some were, but I doubt every one of them were evil.

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Yes, there were plagues on all their food sources.

Why did the firstborn of the livestock die too, if it was mainly the people God had issue with? I get the other plagues, since sickness could easily affect human and animal, but that I don't get.
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It is a sucky story that shows a primitive value system at work.

Bow down to Jehovah, not because he is obviously the wiser and kinder and better god than the Egyptian gods. Not because he teaches a better set of morals than any other gods. No. Bow down to him because he is meaner and more powerful than the other gods. Bow down to him and obey him or he will screw with your leaders, take your land, kill your children and kick your a$$. The followers of Jehovah will enslave you and he will help them do it.

Or you can just leave his people alone.  If you mess with the bull you are going to get the horns.

"For this is what Jehovah of armies says, who after being glorified* has sent me to the nations that were plundering you:+ ‘Whoever touches you touches the pupil of my eye" (Zechariah 2:8 )
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Again, nothing showing that the pharaoh hardened his own heart.


"When Phar?aoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart+ and he refused to listen to them, just as Jehovah had said." (Exodus 8:15)

"However, Phar?aoh again hardened his heart and did not send the people away." (Exodus 8:32)

As I pointed out, jst, your god takes responsibility for this.  You see that "just as Jehovah had said"?  Here is where he said it: Exodus 7 "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. 5 And the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it.”"

So then, would you say that Pharoah had a soft hear before his encounter with Moses?
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It was never stated that the average Egyptian civilians were guilty of wrongdoing—except worshipping other gods, but here's the thing—that's all they knew.

It wasn't personally Pharoah that was treating the Hebrews so harshly.  I find it sad there is so much compassion for the cruel Egyptians but none for the innocent people actually being abused by them.  They seem to be just swept under the rug.  It is like having compassion on  Nazis while forgetting those that they abused.

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Not to mention if I recall correctly, even the livestock were afflicted by the plagues, death of the firstborn included. And the livestock can't have done anything wrong.

Yes, there were plagues on all their food sources.
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