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61

Who is "our", I need to know who you include in your "we" and why?
You're in the wrong place thinking that the people of WWGHA disregard the influence of religion on people's actions, but where you seem to be lacking is recognizing that same thing in your "we/us".

From what I've seen, they don't disregard the influence of religion when it comes to Christians. If the Westboro Baptist Church suddenly started killing gay people, I'd expect no shortage of folks around here pointing out the link between a plain text reading of the Christian holy books and the behavior of the WBC. But when ISIS members in Syria take sex slaves, or throw gays off rooftops, I see little-to-no recognition from folks around here of how a convicted belief in fundamentalist Islam could lead one to behave this way. Just a litany of outrage at The West for its foreign policy evils (actual and otherwise).

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You say that Sam has not denied that the US has "a lot to apologize for" but here is the point; why do they just have to apologize for a billion deaths while these Islamists deserve to die for thousands? It's because you and Sam have your pom poms out cheering for your team instead of addressing the topic reasonably or not hypocritically. It is that hypocrisy that likely fuels some people to the hatred they have.

Yesterday, you said the following:

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1st. There is an unknown body count for the West in these countries. So to try to compare #'s is worthless. That cannot be disregarded.

Now today, you blithely tar the West with the responsibility for "a billion deaths," while Islamists are only on the hook for "thousands." Never mind that you haven't any way of substantiating these figures, you take it a step further, asserting that the real hypocrites in this conversation are people like Sam and myself. Another thing Sam was right about, it seems - some ironies really are harder to detect than others.

To at least answer your question in principle, the reason that jihadists need to die for what they've done is that they fully intend to keep doing it. It's their explicit mission statement. Even if the West began "behaving itself" (however you define that in your own mind), the mission of ISIS and like-minded groups would continue: convert, subjugate, or kill unbelievers, kill apostates, and conquer the world. There is no moral equivalency here. Without a second thought, a jihadist will shield himself from being killed in a drone strike by camping out next to a hospital, or living in a residential area - knowing full well that an American military will take steps to avoid killing innocent people. If that same military tried to protect themselves from attack by using innocents as human shields, everyone would get massacred. Because from the perspective of ISIS, killing innocent people is the whole point.

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If you are in the act of doing underhanded things, and you kill an innocent bystander while attempting to kill an ISIS member you are indeed no better than the ISIS member, and I would argue you are worse. Until you and Sam realize this you will be on the wrong side of this discussion.

Killing an ISIS member is not an underhanded act.
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Its just want, want, want.

:-)
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You would prefer a less honest interpretation?

A more intelligent and less lazy interpretation would do, imo.
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You would prefer a less honest interpretation?

Debating ideas should not be about making others feel good IMO.
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Confining it to my actions  in this thread topic I am just being consistent with reality. If you find reality depressing you should ask for help.

You misunderstand. I don't find reality depressing, I find your persistent negative interpretation of reality to be depressing.

66

Stop with analogies.  They are wrong and overly simplified.  Yours is dangerously wrong.  If you think they are just crazed, homicidal maniacs, you've not been paying attention. If you cannot understand them, you are incapable of stopping them.  This is why we are losing the war against...someone.  We haven't bothered to understand the problem because we are a nation of chest-thumping idiots who have seen too many action movies. Thus, we are incapable of solving the problem. Your post is exemplary of that.


Obviously, I agree that it matters why our enemies do the things they do, and that understanding them is a big key to stopping them. Harris has beating that drum for more or less his entire career. His problem (and mine) is that too many people are far too willing to completely dismiss the influence of Islamic doctrine on peoples' beliefs and behavior. Meanwhile, Sam has never denied that the United States has a lot to apologize for in terms of its foreign policy. But the reason he hasn't adopted a more Chomsky-ist line of thinking is that groups like ISIS behave in ways that, frankly, can only be explained by their paying rigorous attention to Islamic doctrine. Sam's leftist critics, transfixed by the notion that most of the world's troubles have everything to do with U.S. foreign policy, go out of their way to ignore this fact.

My point was not to equate a jihadist with an axe-wielding psychopath in real-world terms, but only in the context of a narrow thought experiment (where the analogy is perfectly reasonable). If, in the attempt of stopping the psychopath/jihadist from killing anyone, you accidentally hurt or even kill an innocent bystander, that doesn't automatically make you the moral equivalent of the psychopath/jihadist.

Who is "our", I need to know who you include in your "we" and why?
You're in the wrong place thinking that the people of WWGHA disregard the influence of religion on people's actions, but where you seem to be lacking is recognizing that same thing in your "we/us".

You say that Sam has not denied that the US has "a lot to apologize for" but here is the point; why do they just have to apologize for a billion deaths while these Islamists deserve to die for thousands? It's because you and Sam have your pom poms out cheering for your team instead of addressing the topic reasonably or not hypocritically. It is that hypocrisy that likely fuels some people to the hatred they have.

If you are in the act of doing underhanded things, and you kill an innocent bystander while attempting to kill an ISIS member you are indeed no better than the ISIS member, and I would argue you are worse. Until you and Sam realize this you will be on the wrong side of this discussion.
67
General Religious Discussion / Re: What does the Bible Teach?
« Last post by eh! on April 28, 2017, 05:11:10 PM »
Actually a church housed prostitutes when they were being abused by patrons and arrested by police and given harsh sentences.

The hookers organised a fightback plan and the church became an activist hub and shelter for sex workers who were denied human rights.

The church tried to remove the priest, end result is much better recognition and conditions for sex workers world wide. That priest was treated very badly by the church but he stood on scripture and principal to fight his own religion, and the courts while protecting the mist vulnerable.

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General Religious Discussion / Re: What does the Bible Teach?
« Last post by 12 Monkeys on April 28, 2017, 04:48:58 PM »
It is puzzling how so many churches are out there being used 1 or 2 days a week and we still have a homeless problem.....could be that a good portion of the homeless have mental disturbances and are not being cared for properly by the state. The two different types of mental illness,mentally disturbred (such a wide variety) and mentally challenged......only those with a mental challenge are properly cared for..... they leave the mentally disturbed out on the street to fend for themselves and to self medicate.
69

Stop with analogies.  They are wrong and overly simplified.  Yours is dangerously wrong.  If you think they are just crazed, homicidal maniacs, you've not been paying attention. If you cannot understand them, you are incapable of stopping them.  This is why we are losing the war against...someone.  We haven't bothered to understand the problem because we are a nation of chest-thumping idiots who have seen too many action movies. Thus, we are incapable of solving the problem. Your post is exemplary of that.


Obviously, I agree that it matters why our enemies do the things they do, and that understanding them is a big key to stopping them. Harris has beating that drum for more or less his entire career. His problem (and mine) is that too many people are far too willing to completely dismiss the influence of Islamic doctrine on peoples' beliefs and behavior. Meanwhile, Sam has never denied that the United States has a lot to apologize for in terms of its foreign policy. But the reason he hasn't adopted a more Chomsky-ist line of thinking is that groups like ISIS behave in ways that, frankly, can only be explained by their paying rigorous attention to Islamic doctrine. Sam's leftist critics, transfixed by the notion that most of the world's troubles have everything to do with U.S. foreign policy, go out of their way to ignore this fact.

My point was not to equate a jihadist with an axe-wielding psychopath in real-world terms, but only in the context of a narrow thought experiment (where the analogy is perfectly reasonable). If, in the attempt of stopping the psychopath/jihadist from killing anyone, you accidentally hurt or even kill an innocent bystander, that doesn't automatically make you the moral equivalent of the psychopath/jihadist.
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Confining it to my actions  in this thread topic I am just being consistent with reality. If you find reality depressing you should ask for help.

Personally I can accept some shitty things as shitty things without getting depressed.

Cynical?/ yes, very.

The op  wants a fight to prove the west are the bad guys, I agreed with. Who started what, when, where, who has killed the most, the reasons.......are all irrelevant at this point and can be whatever you wish them to be.

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