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General Religious Discussion / Re: Arguments from Reason - Aquinas
« Last post by albeto on Yesterday at 04:46:06 PM »
I've been on a Jerry Coyne video kick (who recently linked the Peter Boghossian? dang, I can't find it now but I wanted to rep you - thanks, it led to many interesting videos!). Anyway, Coyne mentions at one point in his video about why science and religion can't coexist, that 2/3 xians refuse to change their belief to suit new evidence. I've looked for some study that shows this, but can't find anything.

Quoting myself to provide a link to anyone interested. This number was gathered using a Time Magazine poll in 2006. Pew mentions it here: http://www.pewforum.org/2007/08/27/how-the-public-resolves-conflicts-between-faith-and-science/

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When asked what they would do if scientists were to disprove a particular religious belief, nearly two-thirds (64%) of people say they would continue to hold to what their religion teaches rather than accept the contrary scientific finding, according to the results of an October 2006 Time magazine poll.
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General Religious Discussion / Re: faith and bacon
« Last post by jynnan tonnix on Yesterday at 04:40:23 PM »
anything can be decent breaded and fried.   ;)
Madam, you're a cordon-bleu chef and you're speaking my language.

well, I do have to qualify that.  a friend of mine likes chicken gizzards breaded and fried and *those* are most certainly not decent   :o

It so depends on what you are brought up with, though. For instance, chicken feet are considered a big delicacy in some cultures, but I can't even look at those packages when I pass them in the grocery store. But my dad loved giblets, and being too young to know what they were or associate them with anything less than savory, I naturally wanted to try them when I was little and grew up loving them myself. Everyone else in my family recoils in disgust when I eat them, but that's OK...whenever I roast a chicken, the neck, heart, and gizzards are my special treat. I never could develop a taste for liver, though.
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Perhaps I should have phrased my wording better: I wasn't talking about Jackie regarding that.  I was referring to parents who might try to force their kids to get a sex-change operation at that age.  I know Jackie isn't getting a sex-change operation.

What parents are theses? From where do you draw this conclusion that parents might be doing this?

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I didn't mean to imply that anyone in particular has done this (that I currently know of) I just meant that it's a possibility.

You're basing your opinions on the imagination of a demonstrably deluded, willfully stubborn man who is sure the moon landing was a hoax, all the scientists in the world have conspired for centuries to lie about the age of the earth and how the natural world works, and Satan is actively reading your mind and watching your actions because, despite being clever and witty and good enough to have been Jesus' bff up in heaven, despite having centuries to familiarize himself with how the end will come about, he's still compelled to try and trip you up so he can play with your soul like some demonic cat-and-mouse game forever and ever and ever? Why stop at parents forcing preschoolers to lop off their little willies? Why not lament the sorry state of the world in which all xians ever are rounded up and ground up for a New and Improved Soylent Green, the food that feeds your body and spirit? Soon to be force-fed the public by Obama's Traveling Vaccine-Administering Army? It hasn't happened yet, but any day now, right? After all, what can you expect from a society in which preschool children *might* be sold to Catholic priests for sexual payment for Indulgences?

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I apologize for coming across as "drawing a line", I was more trying to express it through what I'm personally familiar with.

I'm not offended at where you draw the line. It's a natural bias to have. It's also a good idea to know about one's cognitive blind spots. So now you know one more about you. Use it for good. What offends me is the quick assumption that crimes of the imagination ought to be taken as legitimately potential threats. That's not just lazy thinking, that has real-world applications that are detrimental [Article: Violent Anti-LGBT Hate Crimes On The Rise After Marriage Equality Ruling]. That's my daughter at risk out there because people don't bother to think logically, but instead follow where the emotion leads, and fear is a most compelling emotion. Junebug called theists "co-conspirators" to the violence of fundamentalist, radical religious terrorists. She's got a point, and I think this is as good an illustration as any to support that.

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I know that kids who are transgender/gay/lesbian etc. are struggling, especially with society's differing views on such issues and the fact that young kids are still trying to figure things out about the world, let alone themselves.  We're starting to learn more about these factors though, and hopefully we can find a way to help society before kinder and less discriminatory.  Figuring out childhood can be difficult enough as it is.

See, this is why religion really bothers me. You're clearly a very sympathetic, compassionate person. That your mind would so readily jump to a bizarre, fearful scenario, and you would quickly judge all information you have against this imaginary scenario, shows just how insidious religious doctrine is. It's a mind virus that makes the host sneeze hateful cognitive/belief snot all over the public. Even nice hosts have a disgusting compulsion to spread the vitriol, and they don't even know they're doing it. And people are getting hurt.

CD - I don't want to give you the impression I'm upset at you, because I'm really not. I do want to give you the impression that the thought process here, the one that goes from "Ergerged! I can imagine this horrible scenario!" to "Ermerged! We have to do THIS!" is not conducive to our goals, if our goals include increasing wellness and reducing suffering. If that is your goal, jumping to a fear-based threat model of the world - because it's conceivable - is not going to help you accomplish that. It will actually do the opposite. Skep's world view is a fear-based thread model of the world, and objectively false. And he's not alone in this.

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General Religious Discussion / Re: Arguments from Reason - Aquinas
« Last post by wheels5894 on Yesterday at 03:31:00 PM »

You are missing the big picture. You are seeing the world through science and nothing but science. This is detrimental. God does not need matter, energy, nor time. God is pure spirit. Spirit is outside of time, mater, and energy.

Fine,  we are missing something! So let's have more information to help.

1. The facts about your god you quote are not out of any religious text - at least not one that claims to written by the god. So how can you possibly know this about your god if it is in an unreachable place?

2. Without energy and matter just exactly how does your god manage to interact with matter or even create anything?

3. If your god is outwith time then it is in a position in which it cannot do anything as it is only within time that actions can happen[1] After all, for an action to have happened there has to be a time when it had not happened and a time after which it happened. Thus, it is claimed, your god at one time was in a position in which there was no universe and then there was a universe. Such a situation can only happen in time. Without time the expression is meaningless.
 1. If you don't agree, tell us of any act that you can show happened in somewhere without time.
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Like what? Wearing pig-tails and Little Mermaid pajamas? Little boys should always only ever wear masculine emulating clothes and hair styles?

Jackie's not getting a sex change operation, she's allowed to behave in the way that feels naturally to her, even though it goes against conventional gender expectations.

How much information should a preschooler have about what she should feel like? From where should she get this information? At what age should she be allowed to consult herself?

Perhaps I should have phrased my wording better: I wasn't talking about Jackie regarding that.  I was referring to parents who might try to force their kids to get a sex-change operation at that age.  I know Jackie isn't getting a sex-change operation.

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Who does this? When has this been done? Examples, please.

I didn't mean to imply that anyone in particular has done this (that I currently know of) I just meant that it's a possibility.

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So you recognize that gender conformity is not necessary *to some extent* with regard to maturing and developing into a healthy, socially integrated adult, right? Why should that line be determined by what you are familiar with?

Look, I'm not transgender. I don't know anyone who is. I've read stories of friends online who talk about siblings and children who are transgender, but those aren't really my experiences. My personal familiarity is quite conventional (lesbian daughter, so maybe not). But here's where I differ from Skeptic. I can incorporate new information into my model of what is reality, and I am not compelled by anxiety to force my model to maintain certain faith-based claims. I can recognize that the transgender population has an increased presence of depression, anxiety, and attempted suicide and not feel burdened to attribute it to an undefinable, unverifiable construct, lazily slapped on to explain uncomfortable behaviors ("sin"). I can recognize we're just beginning to study a modern approach of support, and that approach seems to indicate a superior mental health trajectory to Skeps' solution, which begins and ends with the demonstrably useless policy - prayer. And if it turns out this trend is an illusion, and transgender children who are raised to embrace the identity of their nature are not healthier after all, then we'll have that much more knowledge to refer to when helping those who are hurting. And let's not forget, as Skep does, these kids are hurting. Very, very much.  Why *wouldn't* we want to help them? Why *wouldn't* we want to know what best helps them? Why on earth would we close our eyes and stick our fingers in our ears and refuse to consider new information and rely instead on emotional and social coercion and punishment to force conformity? Skep does it because he thinks his god will be glorified by burning them forever and ever and ever, and even Skep doesn't want that to happen.

I apologize for coming across as "drawing a line", I was more trying to express it through what I'm personally familiar with.

I know that kids who are transgender/gay/lesbian etc. are struggling, especially with society's differing views on such issues and the fact that young kids are still trying to figure things out about the world, let alone themselves.  We're starting to learn more about these factors though, and hopefully we can find a way to help society before kinder and less discriminatory.  Figuring out childhood can be difficult enough as it is.
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I do wholeheartedly agree that 4 is too young to make a serious informed decision like that,

Like what? Wearing pig-tails and Little Mermaid pajamas? Little boys should always only ever wear masculine emulating clothes and hair styles?

Jackie's not getting a sex change operation, she's allowed to behave in the way that feels naturally to her, even though it goes against conventional gender expectations.

How much information should a preschooler have about what she should feel like? From where should she get this information? At what age should she be allowed to consult herself?

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and it is terrible that some parents would try to force their kids to go through a sex change if their child begins to exhibit behavior that's "outside traditional gender norms".

Who does this? When has this been done? Examples, please.

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Just because a boy plays with dolls or a girl plays with monster trucks doesn't mean anything's wrong, just that they have different personalities.[1]
 1. For instance, I never was a huge fan of Barbies, but had an entire large collection of Hot Wheels cars and race-tracks, and having more of an interest in space, horror, and mysteries than fashion (the latter point still being true today).

So you recognize that gender conformity is not necessary *to some extent* with regard to maturing and developing into a healthy, socially integrated adult, right? Why should that line be determined by what you are familiar with?

Look, I'm not transgender. I don't know anyone who is. I've read stories of friends online who talk about siblings and children who are transgender, but those aren't really my experiences. My personal familiarity is quite conventional (lesbian daughter, so maybe not). But here's where I differ from Skeptic. I can incorporate new information into my model of what is reality, and I am not compelled by anxiety to force my model to maintain certain faith-based claims. I can recognize that the transgender population has an increased presence of depression, anxiety, and attempted suicide and not feel burdened to attribute it to an undefinable, unverifiable construct, lazily slapped on to explain uncomfortable behaviors ("sin"). I can recognize we're just beginning to study a modern approach of support, and that approach seems to indicate a superior mental health trajectory to Skeps' solution, which begins and ends with the demonstrably useless policy - prayer. And if it turns out this trend is an illusion, and transgender children who are raised to embrace the identity of their nature are not healthier after all, then we'll have that much more knowledge to refer to when helping those who are hurting. And let's not forget, as Skep does, these kids are hurting. Very, very much.  Why *wouldn't* we want to help them? Why *wouldn't* we want to know what best helps them? Why on earth would we close our eyes and stick our fingers in our ears and refuse to consider new information and rely instead on emotional and social coercion and punishment to force conformity? Skep does it because he thinks his god will be glorified by burning them forever and ever and ever, and even Skep doesn't want that to happen
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Reviews / Re: Rate the Last Film You Saw
« Last post by Nam on Yesterday at 02:56:29 PM »
Da Sweet Blood of Jesus -- 5/10.

The worst Spike Lee film I've seen out of the 14 of his I've seen in total. This is a remake of a blaxploitation film called Ganja & Hess (1973), which I haven't seen as of yet. It's basically about a Dr. Green who gets stabbed in the heart by an African knife and dies then wakes up later as a vampire-like creature. The problem with this film is there's no cohesion from one part to the next. The very beginning of the film it shows in the opening credits three people around New York dancing the same dance. What did that have to do with the rest of the film? And everything throughout the film is very slow including the sex turned horror scenes. The introduction of characters was nonsensical. It almost seemed as if he was attempting to make this into a blaxploitation film, and if he was, he failed.

It was well written, well shot, but it was boring (especially for this type of horror film) and while there were some interesting parts you can tell he only took 16 days to make it.

-Nam
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I do wholeheartedly agree that 4 is too young to make a serious informed decision like that, and it is terrible that some parents would try to force their kids to go through a sex change if their child begins to exhibit behavior that's "outside traditional gender norms".  Just because a boy plays with dolls or a girl plays with monster trucks doesn't mean anything's wrong, just that they have different personalities.[1]
 1. For instance, I never was a huge fan of Barbies, but had an entire large collection of Hot Wheels cars and race-tracks, and having more of an interest in space, horror, and mysteries than fashion (the latter point still being true today).
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Skep's point is always the same

Yes, his point is "lalallalalalalalalacanthearyou what I believe is true."

Always is.  He is a cognitive brick wall.  Exemplified with this little bit of fuckery:
No, my way is the natural way. The recent trends within the last 20 years are attempts by feminists to make men wimps.

Simple as that.

skeptic54768 gives no fucks what other people have to say.  He is an arrogant, unthinking deluded cuss, and he is fucking proud of it.
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Since you're back with some new bullshit, perhaps you'd like to address this old bullshit?

Skep, was it okay to have sex with a 12 year-old girl in biblical times because life-expectancy was low? Yes or no please.
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