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General Religious Discussion / Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?
« Last post by albeto on August 24, 2016, 10:52:10 AM »
Isn't religion a way (satisfying to many) to deal with life's biggest questions?

How did we get here/where do we come from?
What is the point of our existence?
Why do we die and what happens when we die?

I think it satisfies only those who are satisfied to stop asking at some point. Keep in mind, faith means to believe a claim is true, whether or not it is, whether or not it has any viable support, whether or not it's even logical. To believe something in faith is to believe the claim is true without satisfying the natural curiosity of confirming the claim.

Some people aren't satisfied with being told to sit down and shut up. Some people aren't satisfied with telling that to themselves, or others saying that to them. For many people, religion isn't a satisfying way to answer questions, big or small, simply because it requires one to accept a claim as true.

So if we want to say no religion adequately helps wrestle with these questions than how do we wrestle with these questions?

Same way theists wrestle with these questions when their faith-claim answers are rejected by the masses. Even theists recognize now the revolves around the earth. Even theists recognize the Earth is not actually flat. Most theists recognize hurricanes are caused by predictable and knowable weather patterns, making angry gods a superfluous variable. How did your religion deal with theses truth-bombs when the religious answer was first called into question? How did it make the transition from believing one claim to accepting the reality?

Questions are always only answered reliably through a systematic method of making observations, hypotheses, experiments, tests, collecting data, analyzing the data, presenting data for review for others who were not involved, lest any cognitive biases skew the conclusions. Repeat as necessary, paying attention to each detail as it can be explored, until a piece of information is so well understood, and has been shown to be reliable, and can be assumed to represent reality accurately. And if that representation is found to be lacking some detail, then that detail is explored until necessary modifications are made.

In essence, theists and atheists go through this process just the same, but we differ on two points. One is the point of stopping the inquiry. Theists are satisfied to stop the inquiry before a natural conclusion in order to preserve the integrity of a particular faith-based claim. From believing in a young earth to believing evolution was divinely inspired, theists will stop their inquiry and be satisfied with a supernatural explanation that can only be accepted as true on faith alone. The other point is recognizing what is evidence. Theists tend to use subjective interpretations of personal experiences qua evidence, rather than recognizing them as merely a hypothesis.

Welcome to the forum. 
52
General Religious Discussion / Re: Killing in the name of Charlotte's Web?
« Last post by jdawg70 on August 24, 2016, 10:15:54 AM »
The argument is not "just have faith with no evidence." The argument is that we know that God never promised us a carefree life. Atheists have this bizarre belief that if God exists, everyone's life should be perfect with no problems whatsoever. Don't know where they get it from.

It's not about perfect with no problems, but really, just fewer problems.  You seem very incapable of understanding that there is a range of options between "very shitty" and "very optimal."

I'm going to put this here because you utterly ignored it last time, and it is immensely relevant to this conversation.  I predict that you're going to disappear from this thread at this point.

You are treading on some very dangerous ground with that statement. How many things should God help us with vs not help us with? We would be immortal if he prevented every death.
That'd be a shame.

When you get to heaven (or hell), you may want to convey this whole 'immortality is for the birds' thing to god.  It appears that he's unaware that this immortality thing is something that he shouldn't be providing, what with the whole 'immortality of the afterlife' thing going on.

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Or should God just prevent the "bad deaths" like murder? Should he do away with cancer but not the common cold? Should he help a rape victim but not get you a beer from the fridge?
"Well, Sarah, if I stopped the big burly 250-lbs man with a knife from shoving his penis in and out of your asshole repeatedly without your consent until he gave you a nasty case of the herpes, I'd have to help Bob across the street grab a beer from his fridge.  Since I don't want to nanny Bob every second of the day for something as simple as getting his beer, you're just going to have to deal with the burly guy ripping your anus apart, causing you horrible pain and suffering for the several hours of rape, not to mention whatever psychological damage he's causing you (good luck with riding the subway on your own without having an anxiety attack!).  Oh, looks like he decided to have some fun with your vagina too.  Now you're pregnant.  Good luck graduating high school while taking care of the kid and dealing with the lifelong STD."

"Well, Jimmy, if I healed your brain tumor, I'd have to heal Alice's sniffles across the street.  Since I don't want to nanny Alice every second of the day for something as trivial as a stuffy nose, you're just going to have to deal with the pain and suffering associated with a brain tumor near your neocortex, not to mention the whole 'dying in the next two years.  Yeah I know you're 6-years old."

"You and your family are starving?  Haven't been able to get food for the past 3 days?  You want me to go out and get your meals for you or something?  You really should have thought of that before you became peasants."


"You and your family are enslaved and being mistreated?  If I set you free, I'd have to get Bob beer from the fridge...you know - tell ya what.  In this case, I'm going to kill the first born of every one of your slave masters to show that they should set you free.  If they chase you, I'll go ahead and part the waters of a large body of water so you can get across, and subsequently drown your slaver masters should they be foolish enough to chase after you.  Also, don't worry too much about food in the desert - I'll send plenty of manna in your direction for the next 40 or so years.

This is going to be a great story for my memoirs."


Why is "free will" such an alien concept to you?
Are you sure 'free will' is an alien concept to the people you're talking to?  Are you sure it's not the case that 'free will' is an alien concept to you?  God doesn't intervene because free will, and also, this book that has bunches of stories of god doing things like 'intervening' in ways that look very, very similar to the 'intervening' that god doesn't do because free will...yeah the stories in that book are true and actually happened.

Free will seems like it's an alien concept to the people you're talking to because, well, as far as I can tell, you've not really bothered to think about what the concept of free will is beyond 'it's the answer that allows me to hold onto my beliefs'.  Like 'soul', 'free will' is a phrase that you intuitively feel you understand, but you've not, at all, bothered to figure out what it is you understand about it.  You've no interest in trying to understand anything about it.  You've no interest in digging deeper; getting more specific; unwrapping it.  You've no interest in figuring out if the answer 'free will' makes sense or not - you know 'free will' is the answer and you're sticking to it, regardless of what 'free will' actually means.

'Free will' is the arrangement of letters that you place in the answer box to certain questions.  To you, having a value in the answer box is sufficient to halt questions.  Whether or not the arrangement of letters in the answer box actually has anything to do with the question...well, you don't really care.  You've got something in the answer box - good enough.

I propose that we allow skeptic54768 to reset his karma by simply registering a new username.  Him having the word 'skeptic' in his name is starting to get semantically offensive.  Kinda in the same way the phrase "good Nickelback songs" is semantically offensive.
 
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General Religious Discussion / Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?
« Last post by 12 Monkeys on August 24, 2016, 09:43:39 AM »
So, would you be willing to admit that it was certainly possible for people to use Christianity as an excuse to rape and pillage, despite not actually being Christian?
That makes about as much sense as saying that people could use pacifism as an excuse to wage war.

Christianity cannot be used as an excuse to rape and pillage.  Not by Christians, not by people posing as Christians, and not by anyone else for that matter.  For that matter, nothing can be used as an excuse to rape and pillage.  There are two problems with the idea; first, such behavior encourages others to act the same, and second, those that commit such acts have no grounds to complain about others doing the same sorts of things to them.

Incidentally, both are good reasons to refrain from such behavior which don't require believing in things like "absolute morality".
Do you find it odd that modern 'Christians' claim that early Christians travelling the globe raping pillaging and stealing the land,we're not really Christian? When their 'Christian' leaders (Obama,Bush,Cheney) gear up for war,they remain mostly silent. These morons only interest God and Christianity is the reward.
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Balls to the wall ex atheist, my ass! If you truly had a lack of belief in gods, there is no way you'd be defending a corrupt religion and it's god as staunchly as you do.
Please do not commit the "no true atheist fallacy, Eddie.  It would not be the first time an atheist has "found religion", and the saying "a convert is more Catholic than the Pope" applies here.

I see what you're saying here, but maybe Eddie was trying to say that Skeptic was an atheist for bad reasons.  You can make the argument that there are good reasons to be an atheist (you studied comparative religion, the history of religion, you've read the Bible and many religious texts thoroughly, etc.) and bad reasons (something bad happened to you in life, you hate the way religious people act, etc.).  Maybe Skeptic was an atheist for all the wrong reasons?  That might be what Eddie is getting at, but I don't want to put words in his mouth either.
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General Religious Discussion / Re: Killing in the name of Charlotte's Web?
« Last post by jaimehlers on August 24, 2016, 09:27:03 AM »
skeptic, even if you are correct in saying that the Christian god never promised his adherents a carefree life, do you really think that this world is the best he can do?  And if you don't think so, then perhaps you should contemplate why that is, without trying to excuse or justify it.

Consider the behavior of "all-powerful" human dictators who expect things like worship and veneration from their subjects, who also promise good things for said subjects if they properly venerate and worship the dictator, yet despite that, a significant percentage of them end up suffering as a result of the dictator's actions.  You might think about how your god doesn't differ significantly from that.
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General Religious Discussion / Re: Killing in the name of Charlotte's Web?
« Last post by jaimehlers on August 24, 2016, 09:14:46 AM »
Balls to the wall ex atheist, my ass! If you truly had a lack of belief in gods, there is no way you'd be defending a corrupt religion and it's god as staunchly as you do.
Please do not commit the "no true atheist fallacy, Eddie.  It would not be the first time an atheist has "found religion", and the saying "a convert is more Catholic than the Pope" applies here.
57
Chatter / Re: "What are you listening to now"... take three...
« Last post by BrainMan on August 24, 2016, 07:40:27 AM »
I am listening Enriuq's song 'Hero'. I just love Enrique and his name. I was looking for the meaning of Enrique on http://www.babynology.com/meaning-enrique-m1.html and now I understand why he lives in the heart of million.
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General Religious Discussion / Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?
« Last post by jdawg70 on August 24, 2016, 07:08:27 AM »
Isn't religion a way (satisfying to many) to deal with life's biggest questions?
Is it?

Is trigonometry a way to deal with questions like "should I lend this person money?"  Is that a 'big' question or a 'small' question?  How much effort do you put into assessing how you answer that question?  Do you put more effort into assessing how you answer more important questions, or do you put less effort into assessing how you answer more important questions?

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How did we get here/where do we come from?
What is the point of our existence?
Why do we die and what happens when we die?
Interesting questions.  Does it matter whether or not a response to those questions is correct?

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So if we want to say no religion adequately helps wrestle with these questions than how do we wrestle with these questions?
If I said "randomly arrange letters until I get a sentence that makes me stop asking those questions," would you say that is an effective way to wrestle with those questions?

In what was is religion an effective way to wrestle with those questions?

Welcome to the forum, Dmeadows.
59
General Religious Discussion / Re: Why did we stop inventing gods?
« Last post by junebug72 on August 24, 2016, 07:06:40 AM »
Isn't religion a way (satisfying to many) to deal with life's biggest questions?

How did we get here/where do we come from?
What is the point of our existence?
Why do we die and what happens when we die?

So if we want to say no religion adequately helps wrestle with these questions than how do we wrestle with these questions?

Welcome to the Forum Dmeadows.

First off hyperbole.  It will take more than your words to show that many are "satisfied".  Many are on a list but as to whether they are satisfied there is no way to know. 

To answer your question; how do we wrestle with these questions?  Become a scientist! ;) 

I'm here because my mom and dad got it on.  I give my own purpose to MY life.  I don't wrestle with these questions since becoming an atheist.  It does not matter as much as the here and now.  I'm here and that's all that matters.

I will say religion raises more questions than it has ever answered.  What big question does religion answer that does not lead to more questions? 

60
General Religious Discussion / Re: Killing in the name of Charlotte's Web?
« Last post by junebug72 on August 24, 2016, 06:43:39 AM »
We don't hate god or wish it I'll will.  We don't believe they exist.  You still have not answered your own question or ours.  This reply is a sarcastic blow off insulting to our intelligence and sealing up yours in a clown suit.

Now you beg the question why don't Yahweh do his genociding.  Why make killers out of man after commanding them not to kill? 

I don't believe the Bible is the word of a God so me not thinks god is cruel.  Me thinks it not real.
I have rarely run into a theist that doesn't engage in presuppositionalism.  How many times are we going to hear this argument that we're just angry at God and therefore deny him?  It never even occurs to them that God may not exist and that everything is happening through random chance.  Skep points out that he could be stabbed and die tomorrow and he still wouldn't hate God.  I believe him - in fact, he could have five daughters and all of them raped and killed by a Ted Bundy type, and he'd still love God.  He'd just read the Book of Job and see himself.  That was the brilliance (at the time) of that story.  It convinced people that no matter what happens in life, you should just have faith with no evidence.  It gave a perfect excuse for why terrible things happen - God is just testing us.  They tried to eliminate random occurrence as the reason bad things happened, and many people at the time bought it.
The argument is not "just have faith with no evidence." The argument is that we know that God never promised us a carefree life. Atheists have this bizarre belief that if God exists, everyone's life should be perfect with no problems whatsoever. Don't know where they get it from.

Answer the questions that have been asked in this thread or go away; Please. 

1) How do people use Christianity to rape and pillage; do evil?
2) Why does god need worship?
3) Why doesn't God do his own genociding after "commanding" us NOT TO kill?

Jesus promised to answer anything you ask in his name.  He said we could do greater deeds than him, move mountains.  If this were true people would pray for people not to die, there would be a lot less death.  People pray for world peace and yet there is no world peace.  People pray over their food but they still get salmonella.  Please quote the scripture where "God" said we are not promised a carefree life; not David.

Your book says both things.  David or a prophet said that about it raining on the just and unjust.  Jesus says you can ask for it not to rain and it will be done.  As you can see your bible is bi-polar.  Your book should be medicated.  OR..there are no TMTrue Christians.
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