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51
General Religious Discussion / Re: Why Worship?
« Last post by velkyn on Yesterday at 04:21:32 PM »
it does not allow you to state that gods do not exist, which is the strong atheist position.

Is strong atheism different than antitheism?  I wish there weren't so many sects of atheism.  Why can't they all agree to just be one kind of atheist?

I've never seen strong atheism supported with anything other than statements of faith.  I do not even think it's a rational position because you would have to actually prove evidence of absence.  And while atheist claim they have evidence the God of the Bible isn't real, that's just the tip of the ice berg. 

First you have to accurately define evidence of a god's presence before you can determine it's absent.  I've never seen anyone up to the challenge.

what is antitheism and atheism in your understanding, jst?     It's interesting to see kevin's and jst's positions coalescing.  tell us what evidence of a god's presence is and how you know. 
52
General Religious Discussion / Re: Why Worship?
« Last post by velkyn on Yesterday at 04:19:39 PM »
I've never seen strong atheism supported with anything other than statements of faith.  I do not even think it's a rational position because you would have to actually prove evidence of absence.

bingo, jst. you'll notice the loudest opponents of your position don't actually defend a position of their own. they just demand that you prove yours.

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First you have to accurately define evidence of a god's presence before you can determine it's absent.  I've never seen anyone up to the challenge.

yes. claiming that your position--that gods exist-- is wrong does not establish theirs--that gods do not exist-- to be correct by some sort of default.

occam's razor merely allows the statement that gods have not been proven to exist.

and kevin again ignores that strong atheists (most) do not just say that gods don't exist based on their "faith" that this is the case.  we have evidence. 
53
General Religious Discussion / Re: Why Worship?
« Last post by Foxy Freedom on Yesterday at 04:16:57 PM »
you are conflating strong atheism-- the explicit assertion that gods do not exist-- with the position supported by parsimony of merely asserting that they are unnecessary.

Just out of interest, please list the attributes of unnecessary gods in such a way that they could be considered gods.

hi foxy

how've you been?

history has had hundreds of definitions of gods, far too many to list.

what is your own opinion?

I am very busy with my life at the moment. No time for anything else.

I want to know how you deal with this, not hundreds of religions.
54
General Religious Discussion / Re: Individual perceptions
« Last post by velkyn on Yesterday at 04:12:54 PM »
not at all, jst.  It is you who claim that this god is omnipotent and at the same time somehow this god can't do something.  This god should be able to make itself understood, no matter how stupid humans are humans that it suppsedly made.  With your argument, your god is limited *by* humans, which is quite funny.  It seems we either have a malevolent god, or an extremely inept one. 

Because a teacher cannot teach calculus to a first grader doesn't mean the teacher is inept or lacks power.  "More power" is not the solution to every problem.
again, nice excuse.  a teacher isn't omnipotent, or hadn't you noticed?  a teacher also didn't create his students.  Failed analogy, but expected. 

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Now, it is interesting that you have retreated to the claim that this god doesn't want some people to understand.  Oh, that does go against what other Christians say and shows again how it's humans who make up this god, no one else.

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I am not making any claims about what "other Christians" say.  I haven't even made any claims but only challenged your assumptions.  Christians can have their opinions and you can too.  I will only claim the bible does not teach that.  Here is an example:

"Then He said, 'I will hide My face from them, I will see what their end shall be; For they are a perverse generation, Sons in whom is no faithfulness." (Dt 32:20)

It serves no purpose for him to reveal himself to those that have no faithfulness.  Their revelation is generally adverse judgment if they get any revelation at all.

you have repeatedly claimed that you are right and they are wrong, so you have indeed made claims about other christians.   Christians certainly have their own opinions and baseless nonsense, you are a great example of that.  Your bible has your god intentionally hiding from people, and damning them for not accepting him, and your bible says that this god has to give people faithfulness.  So we have a god that damns people for not doing what it wants because it made them unable to do it. Now, is this just or fair, jst?  Or are we back to might equals right? 

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Does your god want everyone to understand or not?

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He promised to be found by those seeking him.

Seek and ye shall find.  But funny how that doesn't work in what Paul claims.  Romans 9:    18 So then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses.   and what Jesus claims, that he uses parables to decieve people so they can't understand.

so, if this god prevents someone from seeking/understanding him, then they can't, if this god is omnipotent as Christians claim.  All depends on this god's actions, which are repeatedly said to keep some people from understanding and being saved. 

as for jst somehow now claiming that he can know what other people think, including atheists, how does that work with his other claims?  It's awfully conveient for him to claim that he knows that someone else doesnt' really believe in what they say, because he wants to believe otherwise.
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General Religious Discussion / Re: Why Worship?
« Last post by kevinagain on Yesterday at 03:43:23 PM »
you are conflating strong atheism-- the explicit assertion that gods do not exist-- with the position supported by parsimony of merely asserting that they are unnecessary.

Just out of interest, please list the attributes of unnecessary gods in such a way that they could be considered gods.

hi foxy

how've you been?

history has had hundreds of definitions of gods, far too many to list.

what is your own opinion?
56
General Religious Discussion / Re: Why Worship?
« Last post by kevinagain on Yesterday at 03:40:18 PM »
I've never seen strong atheism supported with anything other than statements of faith.  I do not even think it's a rational position because you would have to actually prove evidence of absence.

bingo, jst. you'll notice the loudest opponents of your position don't actually defend a position of their own. they just demand that you prove yours.

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First you have to accurately define evidence of a god's presence before you can determine it's absent.  I've never seen anyone up to the challenge.

yes. claiming that your position--that gods exist-- is wrong does not establish theirs--that gods do not exist-- to be correct by some sort of default.

occam's razor merely allows the statement that gods have not been proven to exist.
57
General Religious Discussion / Re: Why Worship?
« Last post by Jstwebbrowsing on Yesterday at 03:31:54 PM »
it does not allow you to state that gods do not exist, which is the strong atheist position.

Is strong atheism different than antitheism?  I wish there weren't so many sects of atheism.  Why can't they all agree to just be one kind of atheist?

I've never seen strong atheism supported with anything other than statements of faith.  I do not even think it's a rational position because you would have to actually prove evidence of absence.  And while atheist claim they have evidence the God of the Bible isn't real, that's just the tip of the ice berg. 

First you have to accurately define evidence of a god's presence before you can determine it's absent.  I've never seen anyone up to the challenge. 
58
General Religious Discussion / Re: Why Worship?
« Last post by Foxy Freedom on Yesterday at 03:27:23 PM »
you are conflating strong atheism-- the explicit assertion that gods do not exist-- with the position supported by parsimony of merely asserting that they are unnecessary.

Just out of interest, please list the attributes of unnecessary gods in such a way that they could be considered gods.
59
General Religious Discussion / Re: Why are theists so faithless?
« Last post by Jstwebbrowsing on Yesterday at 03:16:45 PM »
and that is from?

I rather like this one from a dictionary: https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/expect

we can also look at this "I have faith in god" or "I have expectation in god".  Doesn't make sense, right?  in that expectation means hope, there is also the problem of why is there "faith hope and charity" if hope and faith mean the same thing.

no, I have trust based on evidence that something may or may not occur.  It is not faith in your defintion of believe in the unseen aka with no evidence as the bible states it. 

It was taken from Bing.

If I have faith in God that means I expect certain things from him, namely, to keep his word.

And I do agree that hope is not the best synonym.  Having faith something is going to occur is not the same thing as hoping it will occur.   


60
General Religious Discussion / Re: Why are theists so faithless?
« Last post by Jstwebbrowsing on Yesterday at 03:01:22 PM »
It just sounds like you're saying that faith is the thingie that motivates one's desire to test something.  Is it related to hope, as you previously indicated that being a synonym to faith?  Do you need to have some hope that a particular hypothesis is correct prior to wanting to test whether or not it's correct?  Do you need to have some hope that a particular hypothesis is incorrect prior to wanting to test whether or not it's correct?  Why is the question itself - is this hypothesis correct or not - a sufficient motivator for wanting to test that hypothesis?

Sorry, I was not finished. 

Well you don't have to hope for a particular result but you are hoping for a result.

And I wouldn't call faith a motivator.  It's more like something we apply because we're motivated to find the truth.
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