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General Religious Discussion / Re: What is the will of Jehovah?
« Last post by ParkingPlaces on Yesterday at 05:03:30 PM »
It might help to have Jst list a few of the things that he thinks qualify as the will of jehovah. That would both provide examples and help limit the scope of the discussion to aspects of the subject that he thinks are important.

As long as he keeps in mind that we atheists don't even think jehovah exists, and that our responses are at best hypothetical and at their worst probably a lot less, and that we consider there to be many an alternative explanation for everything he credits his god for, this might go places.

Note: For those of you not up on the latest, Jst and dennis and presumably skep have been overwhelmed by all the negative responses they have received as they made their various claims for their faith. There are those of us who are willing to calm ourselves a bit and have a more intellectual/less rant filled discussion. As one who knows so little about this aspect of the bible, I doubt I'll be able to contribute much, but I'm all for using this thread as an experiment in civil discourse.
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General Religious Discussion / Re: What is the will of Jehovah?
« Last post by eh! on Yesterday at 04:45:16 PM »
whenever theists debate atheists they expect the atheists to suspend their atheism and be agnostics or theists for the duration of the debate.

that's how I see it, I think the question is interesting because the whole will/plan thing seems well not a very good will or a well thought thru plan but I assume I am missing something.
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General Religious Discussion / Re: What is the will of Jehovah?
« Last post by wheels5894 on Yesterday at 04:38:35 PM »
wheels, treat it as a hypothetical.

I would be happy to, but Jst thinks it is real even without showing it to be.
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General Religious Discussion / Re: What is the will of Jehovah?
« Last post by eh! on Yesterday at 04:37:08 PM »
wheels, treat it as a hypothetical.
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General Religious Discussion / Re: What is the will of Jehovah?
« Last post by wheels5894 on Yesterday at 04:21:07 PM »
It's not much of a discussion if we have to talk about the possible will of a probably no-existent god whose actual name isn't even Jehovah but YHWH. Frankly, the perquisites are needed first before we can go further, i.e.
  • To show there is actually a god and his name is Jehovah. Without that the whole discussion is meaningless.
  • To show that the will of this god, if it exists, does actually reside in the bible. After all, if it doesn't, then there's nothing to say.
So by excluding the most important things for your discussion, you appear to have killed it before it started, Jst. Of course, if you have already achieved these aims above, just point us to the threads so we can read them.
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Evolution & Creationism / Re: how can a scientist be a creationist?
« Last post by Nam on Yesterday at 04:08:08 PM »
Dude. We did not evolve from any kind of ape because we are apes. We have a common ancestor to the chimpanzee but not "ancient" ones, or otherwise in the manner you're stating. Unless I am misinterpreting what you're stating?

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General Religious Discussion / Re: What is the will of Jehovah?
« Last post by eh! on Yesterday at 04:02:55 PM »
not sure why you use the word "present" will of god, does god change his mind?


please distinguish between "will" of god and god's "plan" in this context.
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Evolution & Creationism / Re: how can a scientist be a creationist?
« Last post by MatCauthon on Yesterday at 03:49:13 PM »
Now that I can more or less connect the dots, I find myself understanding, somewhat, why so many people above a certain age can deny what is so obviously true. They honestly don't know what they're arguing against. It seems a lot of people actually believe the ToE says that we "evolved from apes," and do not actually understand the significance of "shared common ancestor".

Well there is a lot of selective hearing on the other side. We did evolve from *ancient* apes, not modern apes. But people just hear "apes." Yeah, the LCA is hard for people to grasp, because they seem to think that if an organism evolves, it can only speciate in one direction, and the original creature doesn't exist anymore. :/

I'd be happy to email a prof who could provide scientific sources if you'd like. I have contact with two of them who would likely be willing to provide what they can access.

I have to wonder how many students he's misguided with this kind of behavior? All of them are owed an apology and a better education. Grr.  >:(

I'd welcome additional information on the subject. I'm mainly trying to find out how mating occurs between different chromosomal arrangements to explain how the fused chromosome would have caught on.
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General Religious Discussion / Re: A Question for Atheists:
« Last post by ParkingPlaces on Yesterday at 03:47:03 PM »
I love people who are wrong about everything. They make me feel so much smarter!

kcrady covered it well. I want to add this though...

I did not become an atheist because of suffering. It had nothing to do with it. I do, however, bring suffering up from time to time when talking with theists because they are the ones claiming that belief in god will bring all sorts of wonderful bennies, like, you know, less suffering and stuff.  So they come up with various forms of "reasoning" that would be laughable if they weren't so serious: god may choose to make you suffer less. He might not. But he could. If he doesn't, that's only because he knew ahead of time that you would suffer and he doesn't want to change the future. Besides, if you suffer now, you'll enjoy heaven more, and though it sometimes looks like good people are really, really suffering, god is secretly making sure it isn't actually all that traumatic for them, even though they are screaming and stuff.

Nope, when I bring up suffering, it is me trying to speak their language as I argue with the christian version of logic, which of course can't compare with the real thing. In the meantime, I know exactly why there is suffering. Because there are no mechanisms in place on this planet or in this universe to prevent such things. On the human level, we could, if so motivated, reduce suffering through conscious effort and a bit of luck. But suffering is the least of the worries of those who are religious suicide bombers and the burners or witches, who are the rich despising the poor, the TV evangelists who are demanding money, the destroyers of environments and economies and societies. The suffering of others is either a goal or way too advantageous to them, and stopping it would be incredibly inconvenient. So while some of us will perish to disasters and lions, many, many more will perish because way too many humans enjoy way too many benefits from others suffering, and religion is certainly not exempt. In fact, it is all too often the prime motivator.

So the guy mentioned in the OP is wrong from the get-go, and it goes downhill from there. Whether failing to mention the awesomeness of killer volcanos and earthquakes or merely demonstrating that he doesn't understand the concept of scientific "laws" any more than he understand anything else on this planet, he is merely listing all the things he never learned anything about.
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General Religious Discussion / Re: What is the will of Jehovah?
« Last post by Nam on Yesterday at 03:29:48 PM »
The "will" of any god is whatever the person reflecting on it says it is. Period.

-Nam
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