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Chatter / Re: myth of a humane General Robert E. Lee
« Last post by Anfauglir on Yesterday at 04:09:31 AM »
I doubt you'll find many statues (if any!) of people who shared the same socio-political attitudes that are approved of today.  Further back you go, the worse that will be.

So perhaps Mr.Blackwell is right - either we DO remove all statues.....or, we accept that while an individual may well have held views that are today considered wrong, the statue is celebrating their achievements - in Lee's case, of being generally a brilliant military commander.
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Chatter / Re: myth of a humane General Robert E. Lee
« Last post by Azdgari on Yesterday at 03:08:56 AM »
What is your genuine idea of a solution, Mr. B.?
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Chatter / Re: myth of a humane General Robert E. Lee
« Last post by Mr. Blackwell on August 15, 2017, 11:11:51 PM »
So then, the solution is clear.

Remove all statues and memorials of all those who did not vociferously defend the inherent rights and equality of all people in action and in words.
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Chatter / Re: myth of a humane General Robert E. Lee
« Last post by jaimehlers on August 15, 2017, 10:19:24 PM »
Let's not forget that Lincoln himself was far from humane by modern standards.  It is true that he was opposed to slavery, but his ideal solution would have been shipping all the freed slaves off to Liberia, not allowing them to continue living in America.  In fact, he wrote this in 1854[1]:

Quote
What then? Free them all, and keep them among us as underlings? Is it quite certain that this betters their condition? I think I would not hold one in slavery, at any rate; yet the point is not clear enough for me to denounce people upon. What next? Free them, and make them politically and socially, our equals? My own feelings will not admit of this; and if mine would, we well know that those of the great mass of white people will not.
In other words, Lincoln was not much better than Lee for his time.  It's easy to forget that the idea of giving black people full political and social equality was pretty much unacceptable during the time before the Civil War.  The ones who supported it were considered wild-eyed radicals like Frederick Douglass and John Brown.

Neither Lee nor Lincoln, nor most people of their time, can be held up as moral signposts for our time.
 1. https://www.nps.gov/liho/learn/historyculture/slavery.htm
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Chatter / Re: myth of a humane General Robert E. Lee
« Last post by wright on August 15, 2017, 08:42:56 PM »
Informative read; thanks, velkyn. A more complete picture of Lee than I've gotten before. For instance, making it clear that famous line about slavery being "... a moral & political evil in any Country." is a quote mine:
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In this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country. It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild & melting influence of Christianity, than the storms & tempests of fiery Controversy.

From one of the linked articles:http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/08/arlington-bobby-lee-and-the-peculiar-institution/61428/
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The entangled lives of the slaves and their masters, the emotional, historical, sexual, and communal connections, could mean only one thing: that these beings were equal as part of mankind; equal in their human instincts, passions, desires, and inclinations, including the desire for self-determination. Equal, as Lincoln said, in the "right to eat the bread without the leave of anybody else, which his own hand earns. . . ." Capable, as George Washington finally realized, "of a destiny different from that in  which they were born." Robert E. Lee would never cross this threshold. He could embrace the need for justice, but it was a justice defined by unjust principles. His racism and his limited imagination meant that he never admitted the humanity of the slaves with whom he lived. In avoiding that truth, he bound himself to slavery's inhumanity.
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Chatter / Re: I'm going to be a grandmother!
« Last post by LoriPinkAngel on August 15, 2017, 08:23:09 PM »
Congratulations!  Have you decided what you will be called?  Grandma, Nana, Meemaw, Glam-ma, or something else?  Is your daughter near you?
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Chatter / myth of a humane General Robert E. Lee
« Last post by velkyn on August 15, 2017, 02:26:32 PM »
a particularly good article on the myth of a humane General Robert E. Lee and the nonsense of the "lost cause" myth of the confederacy.


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Every state that seceded mentioned slavery as the cause in their declarations of secession. Lee’s beloved Virginia was no different, accusing the federal government of “perverting” its powers “not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern Slaveholding States.” Lee’s decision to fight for the South can only be described as a choice to fight for the continued existence of human bondage in America—even though for the Union, it was not at first a war for emancipation.

During his invasion of Pennsylvania, Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia enslaved free blacks and brought them back to the South as property. Pryor writes that “evidence links virtually every infantry and cavalry unit in Lee’s army” with the abduction of free black Americans, “with the activity under the supervision of senior officers.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/

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Chatter / Re: Charlottesville and I can't even
« Last post by wright on August 15, 2017, 12:33:29 PM »
^^^Yeah. They have the right to make their opinions known, not the right to escape any consequences of doing so.
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Religion & Society / Re: WORDS
« Last post by Jag on August 15, 2017, 12:13:43 PM »
^^^No need for forgiveness, it's a non-issue for me. I knew you were angry and I suspected you didn't actually mean it anyway. It's all right. I've been trained to not take things personally, lol

I'll be happy to expand further, but I've got my hands rather full right now. I'm in Oregon for another week and a half or so, visiting newly discovered family, and trying to track down my biological father. It turns out that I might have at least two half-siblings, and if that's the case, I'd at least like to reach out to them. My biological mother died before we had the opportunity to meet, and I don't want that to happen again, so I'm scrambling to connect the dots. I'm headed into Portland to sign off on paperwork to get my adoption records fully opened. I'll be in and out as time allows.
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Chatter / Re: Charlottesville and I can't even
« Last post by Nick on August 15, 2017, 12:07:37 PM »
Social media is putting these guys faces and info up for the world to see.  I think it is great.  Some have lost jobs (if you want to call them jobs) and some families are feeling the heat from their kid's actions.
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