Recent Posts

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 10
31
General Religious Discussion / Re: What is the will of Jehovah?
« Last post by Jstwebbrowsing on Today at 05:00:12 PM »
It might help to have Jst list a few of the things that he thinks qualify as the will of jehovah. That would both provide examples and help limit the scope of the discussion to aspects of the subject that he thinks are important.

I will start with one to keep it simple because I have questions concerning it.  First I want to point out that instructions given to Christians and instructions given to Jews are of a different nature.  Instructions were given to the Jews mostly in the form of laws.  Instructions given to Christians were given mostly in the for of principles.  What is the difference? 

As an example, the principle says "practice and you will become better".  The law says "practice one hour a day".  So you see that a law is different than a principle.  For one, a principle allows for some subjectivity while a law does not.  You can also see that laws can be based on principles.  The law is an effort to enforce a principle.  Christ did not come teaching laws but principles.  It is a continuance of education.  Many have made laws, some of them very oppressive, to enforce the principles taught by Christ.  Some have gone to extremes trying to enforce these laws.  However, this is not what Christ, nor his apostles did nor did they teach others to do so.

Here is one of the most fundamental instructions given to Christians.  "You must love your neighbor as yourself." (Lev 19:18; Mt 22:20)  That is the will of God, what we are instructed to do.  You see that this principle was taught to the Jews, but it was attended to by law.  The principles is "love your neighbor as yourself".  The law is, "You shall not murder", "You shall not commit adultery", "You shall not bare false witness", etc.  You see the law is enforcing the principle.

For the Christian there is no law.  The law was given ONLY to the Jews, based on their ability to understand, and circumstance.  Jehovah expects us to move beyond that now, beyond the law, that is.  He wants us to move beyond where our worship is determined by a set of laws.  The law was necessary for the Jews.  But we are not them.  What was neccessary for them is not necessary for us.

However that doesn't mean Christians are without direction.  There is no longer a requirement to uphold the law.  It is now a requirement to uphold the principle behind the law.  That is, now Jehovah actually expects us to think rather than adhere to a stringent code.

Similar biblical principles include:

1.  No one should seek their own good, but the good of others." (1 Cor 10:24)
2.  Each of us should please our neighbors for their good, to build them up. (Romans 15:2)

The reasons for starting with this principle are twofold.  First, it is to find out if you think it's a good way to live, not only for the individual but also for the community.  Is there a better way to live?  In 2000 years, has anyone come up with a better way?  Is this applicable in modern day?

Secondly I started with this because empathy can only get you so far.  I'd like to know your (whoever replies) opinion on how I might best follow this counsel in relation to you.  How would you like to be treated by me?  How can I do good toward you?
   

32
General Religious Discussion / Re: What is the will of Jehovah?
« Last post by kcrady on Today at 04:57:19 PM »
For this discussion we'll be focusing on what the writers of the scriptures have said it is.  I know that doesn't completely solve the problem but it lessens it.  Additionally, I'm going to be sticking to the things that are instructed rather than the things taught.  It seems a lot of problems arise from perceptions of what is taught overruling the things actually instructed to do/not do.  Hopefully this will do away with a lot of subjectivity.  While we teach our children many things, these things are not to overrule what we instruct them to do/not do.

If Jehovah is a volitional agent, i.e., a person with a "will," then this is like trying to derive the foreign policy of Italy by reading the writings of Marcus Aurelius. 

But just for the heck of it, I'll play:

Jehovah's will was for his followers to establish socialist communities to operate during a brief interim period before Jesus returned within the lifetime of his contemporaries (Mark 9:1, 13:30, 16:32, Luke 9:27, 21:8-27, 21:32, John 5:25-28, Acts 2:17-19, Romans 13:11-12, 16:20, 1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 7:29, 10:11, 15:51...  I could go on, and on--the NT is packed to the gills with this stuff).  A key component of Jesus and Jehovah's apocalyptic scheme was that the Jewish Temple would be completely destroyed, and "not one stone would be left upon another." 

However, the Roman general Titus foiled this prophecy by leaving the Western Wall intact.  When the last of Jesus' generation died out, there was no longer a plausible and consistent way for Jehovah's "prophetic Word" to manifest.  Since Jehovah's "Word" is the source and repository of his power--rather like Sauron and his Ring--the force of his own "prophetic" incantations rebounded on him, destroying both his spiritual kingdom and the coherence of his human community of devotees.  The scattered remnants of incantatory "Word" energy were gathered up by Hellenistic thinkers and used to cobble together the kit-bash of Jewish and Pagan religion that came to be known as "Catholic" (supposedly "universal") Christianity, or in the parlance of Jehovah's Witnesses, "Christendom."

These clever theurgists created a kind of Frankenstein-zombie Jehovah egregore crafted from the astral corpses of Jesus and Jehovah, joined to and animated by the Pythagorean-Platonistic Demiurge, whom they called "the Holy Spirit."  Thus was formed "the Trinity."  Like the Borg, it was programmed to consume and/or assimilate all of the religious ideas around it, with the ultimate aim of becoming the focus of a "one, true, universal religion" that could serve as a bulwark for a faltering Roman Empire.

This Frankenstein-Zombie Jehovah does not have a "will" of its own beyond an insatiable hunger for human minds ("Braaaaiiiiins!").  To the extent that it has any thoughts, they are composed of the cultural biases of the people it feeds on, with random bits of "scripture" passages rattling around in the mad, howling darkness where Jehovah's mind (unstable even in his best days) once was.

Later, another group of theurgists led by a man named Mohammad tried to conjure a golem-egregore closer to the original Jehovah, but programmed with their own cultural biases and supremacist ideas about their people.  This worked quite well, and provided the foundation for a vast Arab empire, but their egregore is also a zombie.  When its community of human hosts split into rival factions (Shia, Sunni, etc.), it bifurcated into a small horde of rival zombies, each programmed to "think" it is the original Jehovah/Allah.

Every now and then, some group of Jehovah cultists convinces themselves that The Stars Are Right, and tries to concoct a new scheme of "prophetic" incantation that can immanentize the Eschaton and finally open the way for "the return of Christ."  Unfortunately for them, the task is impossible, so they quite predictably experience failure as the dates for their "Rapture" or "Second Coming" come, and go, with their efforts only causing more damage to their zombie Jehovah egregore.

Conclusion: there is no such thing as "the will of Jehovah."  This is evident from the scriptures: the failed prophecies, and the failure of the original community of Jesus' followers to remain intact, despite the prediction by Jesus that "the gates of Hell" would not prevail against them" and his will that they be one, even as he and Jehovah were one.   

Edit: Grammar fix.
33
non-existent[1]


I understand that your first impulse is probably to say that there would be no universe or life without god.

You guessed right

I'm hoping to hear about more than just the lack of beautiful sunsets.
...
But its not like we can pray for a response.  &)

PP I really want to know what inspired this question. What did you think could possibly come out of it?
 1. don't bother, I actually do understand your question

I didn't think it outside the normal realm of discussion here at WWGHA, so outcome-wise, I was just hoping for some insights in to the theist mind. Ones possibly outside of the biblical realm. Its kind of hard to quote scripture and stay within the parameters I've proposed.

What inspired me? Christians (mostly) who say "Just look around you, god is everywhere!" I've been looking around myself for over 60 years and have no idea what they're talking about. Nothing I've seen seems to require a god, and since I don't see any sign of him anywhere else either, I find it curious that people can make such blanket statements, especially without being able to explain themselves clearly when asked for more information. A concurrent thread, that has a theist claiming that the awesomeness in the world is proof of god, is what inspired me. That and forgetting that jdawg started an almost identical thread a month ago and got no theist responses.

But I see claims that sunsets and puppy dogs are proof of a god (I'm assuming the latter via poetic license, #388485774675) as naïve, mostly because, while pretty sunsets are nice and puppy dogs are sometimes tolerable, there are many other things being ignored when those claims are made. Ticks, parasitic worms that drill in to the eye and blind the person, lake effect snow, Hawaii being so darned far away, cliffs and other dangerous things, toxic pigeon poop; all of which are on the list of about 2.5 billion things humans could do without.

So if you are someone who thinks sunsets or similar pleasing visual stimuli are proof of a god, what would the world look like without these occasional bursts of alleged beauty? And I am hoping as I ask this that theists will bring up other claims about physical phenomena and their relationship to beliefs. I am asking what the world would look like without these ongoing confirmations (as per the believers) of his existence. What would believers expect to see if there was nothing to believe in?

Hope that clarifies it.

I'm asking a question, not setting a trap.
34
PP I really want to know what inspired this question. What did you think could possibly come out of it?

Maybe for theists to show that they're capable of thinking in hypothetical terms with intellectual honesty? &)
35
non-existent[1]


I understand that your first impulse is probably to say that there would be no universe or life without god.

You guessed right

I'm hoping to hear about more than just the lack of beautiful sunsets.
...
But its not like we can pray for a response.  &)

PP I really want to know what inspired this question. What did you think could possibly come out of it?
 1. don't bother, I actually do understand your question
36
General Religious Discussion / Re: What is the will of Jehovah?
« Last post by eh! on Today at 03:45:11 PM »

[god]  does not change his mind but he [god] moves on to new things.



read that out loud a few times.
37
General Religious Discussion / Re: What is the will of Jehovah?
« Last post by eh! on Today at 03:42:57 PM »
scriptures on how to beat a slave correctly or kill unruly children?

guides to modern living you say?
38
General Religious Discussion / Re: What is the will of Jehovah?
« Last post by Jstwebbrowsing on Today at 03:40:36 PM »
It's not much of a discussion if we have to talk about the possible will of a probably no-existent god whose actual name isn't even Jehovah but YHWH. Frankly, the perquisites are needed first before we can go further, i.e.
  • To show there is actually a god and his name is Jehovah. Without that the whole discussion is meaningless.
  • To show that the will of this god, if it exists, does actually reside in the bible. After all, if it doesn't, then there's nothing to say.
So by excluding the most important things for your discussion, you appear to have killed it before it started, Jst. Of course, if you have already achieved these aims above, just point us to the threads so we can read them.

We know the scriptures were written by someone.  We both agree they were penned by men.  But what I want to look at is what can be inferred from what is written.

"......are the instructions for modern living provided in the scriptures applicable, wise, and good?  If they are then what does that say about the scriptures?  If they are infallibly applicable, wise, and good then what does that say about the scriptures?
 
39
General Religious Discussion / Re: What is the will of Jehovah?
« Last post by eh! on Today at 03:38:43 PM »
see post #22
40
General Religious Discussion / Re: What is the will of Jehovah?
« Last post by Jstwebbrowsing on Today at 03:34:30 PM »
not sure why you use the word "present" will of god, does god change his mind?


please distinguish between "will" of god and god's "plan" in this context.

No he does not change his mind but he moves on to new things.

In this context the will of God is what he wants us to do or don't do.  Specifically things we can act on.  "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Mt 7:21)

So I'm setting aside doctrines, histories, etc. and focusing on those things Christians were told to do or not do.


Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 10