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Chatter / Re: The War on SJWs
« Last post by junebug72 on Yesterday at 02:04:18 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gdpyzwOOYY

More trouble with freedom of speech.  70 new gender pronouns!  Prosecuted for hate speech if you insult the way someone dresses!

Attacking biology?  Is that okay? 

How about instead of SJW, NEO-Marxist?
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General Religious Discussion / Re: Dealing with HELL
« Last post by wheels5894 on Yesterday at 01:38:30 PM »
I think the real problem here is that the concepts of heaven and hell, like that of god as well, are poorly defined if they are defined at all. For example, there are few texts in the bible that give any significant detail about these concepts so the believer, or rather the leader of his particular sect, has to come up with more detail - extrapolate if you will. Naturally enough, religious leaders have been doing this since the NT was written (though some ideas resulted in exile or worse if their ideas were regarded by others as heresy.

However, we are now stuck with 2,000 years of speculation and, despite what people will tell us, no one has been further informed. yet the popes invents purgatory (and even made money from indulgences for it) and others have even more way-out ideas  (JWs) and the Mormons... well theirs is more weird that anything we normally call Christian!

So the whole thing of heaven and hell is fluid, man-made and impossible to tie down so it is hardly surprising that the theists stick to what they are told and don't try and work it out for themselves!
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General Religious Discussion / Re: Dealing with HELL
« Last post by BlackLight on Yesterday at 01:12:49 PM »
I've asked this question a few times and discovered that the theists had a boilerplate response.  They referred me to Revelation 21, where they talk about a new heaven and new earth.  In verse 4 it says "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

So they can rationalize away the pain and suffering of a loved one in hell - they're from the former life, and it's gone.  So I'll ask, sincerely, "Isn't that like receiving a lobotomy in a way?  No more tears, no more suffering?  Wouldn't that mean you don't even remember the loved ones that are in hell?"  The usual response I receive is something along the lines of "Well you do remember, but you're not suffering over it at all.  Just look at the passage again."  It's very strange - they're describing a world that is devoid of feelings, passion and empathy, outside of the love you have for God.  It's a very strange place to be sure.

Apparently, that's what heaven is - the complete stripping away of your individuality - everything you ever cared about - everything that makes you you.

It's strange, because when you pose to theists the question, "Why is there suffering in the world, beyond that we experience from others exercising their free will?" - one very common answer is we need to experience suffering just so we learn to appreciate happiness when it comes our way. Which, as answers go, isn't terrible reasoning. If we never experienced suffering or inconvenience, we probably would stop appreciating the Good Things In Life. Heck, as things are, people do experience suffering and still appear to have trouble appreciating happiness.

But the point is, when you get to heaven, suddenly the script gets flipped. Then, not only is it an eternity of wine and roses, but somehow, you experience every moment as being just as good (if not better) than the last. Even as you know your unfortunate loved ones are writhing away in the flaming pit.
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Your argument is anchored to the idea that a smaller, less developed clump of cells is not even aware of it's own existence.
That's kinda close, in the same sense that a rock is not even aware of it's own existence.  There is no entity currently present that is capable of awareness, in precisely the exact same way a rock does not possess the capability of being aware.  Or, if rock doesn't do it for you, "pile of random assortment of proteins."  It's just that, when you use the phrase "aware of it's own existence," there seems to be an a priori implication that there exists some aspect of that less-developed clump of cells that is capable of being aware but simply isn't.  I don't accept that there is something there that is even capable of being aware.  Like a rock, there isn't anything present 'there' to even attempt to be aware.

Quote
Do you consider a human born two weeks ago to be sentient?
Yes.  I would consider that once the entity has a discernible nervous system that seems to be capable of things like 'joy' and 'suffering', then it should probably be considered sentient[1].  For me, I would argue that a third-trimester foetus has a sufficiently developed nervous system as to warrant consideration that it is indeed capable of joy and suffering.  I would argue that a clump of cells that has no nervous system foundation of any kind is incapable of joy and suffering.  And there is a squishy spectrum in between.  Which I think, again, exposes why the LearnBot aspect of my earlier analogy makes the analogy less than ideal for assessing this.

In your view, do entities that completely lack an existing nervous system have sentience?  Do you consider sperm or eggs to be sentient?  Why or why not?  I say no, and I do so based on their utter lack of a nervous system to support the ability to do things like 'feel'.  If you say no, on what basis do you do so?  If you say yes, on what basis do you do so?
 1. Maybe 'sapient' is a more precise word to use in this conversation?  I have a tendency to treat 'sapience' and 'sentience' as essentially the same.
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General Religious Discussion / Re: Dealing with HELL
« Last post by YouCantHandleTheTruth on Yesterday at 12:07:54 PM »
I've asked this question a few times and discovered that the theists had a boilerplate response.  They referred me to Revelation 21, where they talk about a new heaven and new earth.  In verse 4 it says "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

So they can rationalize away the pain and suffering of a loved one in hell - they're from the former life, and it's gone.  So I'll ask, sincerely, "Isn't that like receiving a lobotomy in a way?  No more tears, no more suffering?  Wouldn't that mean you don't even remember the loved ones that are in hell?"  The usual response I receive is something along the lines of "Well you do remember, but you're not suffering over it at all.  Just look at the passage again."  It's very strange - they're describing a world that is devoid of feelings, passion and empathy, outside of the love you have for God.  It's a very strange place to be sure.
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General Religious Discussion / Re: Morals From God?
« Last post by YouCantHandleTheTruth on Yesterday at 11:29:38 AM »
The real challenge for people who think that morals come from God is to list them. They can't. There is no list of morals.

Read the Old Testament and the list of "morals" you come up with are genocide, infanticide, misogyny, homophobia, and slavery, among others.

That's exactly right.  I guess the typical Christian doesn't really read the Old Testament though.  They probably don't really read the New Testament much either, but they have some talking points, and I think they believe these things are all from their God:

1.   The Golden Rule (they'll cite the Matthew passage, but don't know that it existed in earlier forms, like the Silver Rule).
2.   The two most important commandments you can keep are to love God and love your neighbor as yourself.  Again, this is seen as very noble, but history would tell us it's just not original.  There were things like the Code of Hammurabi from 1750 BC, or the Purvas of Jainism from the 9th Century BC, which heavily stressed interdependence and non-violence).
3.   They see Jesus as a hero in the case of the woman that was to be stoned for adultery.  How often do we hear that passage brought up?  Of course, it's very interesting that it's a woman who is about to be killed there for adultery.  It always seems to be the woman that is bearing the biggest punishments.  Makes me think a little bit of Hester Prynne in the Scarlett Letter.  David can cry out to God and receive forgiveness and love from God, even though he sets Uriah up for death in order to get Bathsheba.  We don't really see that type of forgiveness for women if they cry out to God.  We do here to an extent - but should this passage be so glorified?  Isn't this just common decency?
4.   Come on - he showed the ultimate morals in dying for our sins!  But as we've all pointed out - why is that moral?  Why is someone else dying for our mistakes a good thing?  Shouldn't we all be responsible for our own actions, and also, shouldn't we learn from our mistakes?  If you receive a blanket forgiveness for sinning - how is that good?  How do you learn from your mistakes and grow as a person? 

Those are the four biggest arguments I hear about morals coming from a God, and that's usually how I try to counter them.  I also bring some strange things Jesus/God said in the New Testament that don't appear moral:

1.   Servants that don't obey their masters will receive a severe beating (Luke 12:47)
2.   The Parable of the Ten Minas (Ending in the craziness of slaughter Luke 19:27 - brought up in another thread)
3.   He didn't come to bring peace but a sword/plus anyone who loves a family member more than Jesus isn't worthy of him (Matthew 10:33-40ish)
4.   The turning over of the tables in the church market, and Jesus making a whip of chords and driving people out of the temple with it John 2:15-25ish - seems to contradict his thought on "live by the sword, die by the sword" cutting off of guards' ear by Peter).
5.   Telling people that believe in him that they could handle deadly snakes, drink poison and not die, and heal people with their touch (Mark 16:16 - this starts pointing to him potentially being a lunatic in C.S. Lewis' "Liar, Lunatic or Lord" options.)
6.   Killing of fig tree because it was out of season and didn't bear any fruit Mark 11:12-25.
7.   In that same section of Mark, a promise that anything you ask for, it will be answered in prayer (also falls, potentially, under lunatic or liar options).
8.  Matthew 15:26 - "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs." (refer to Canaanite woman as unworthy of his forgiveness, comparing her to a dog.  Accepts her once she says "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that come from the master's table.")
9.  Revelation 2:20-23.  Because Jezebel refuses to repent of her sexual immorality, her children will be struck dead.

There are many other terrible passages in the New Testament, and I got tired after 8 (the 9th isn't attributable to Jesus).  Do you all know others attributable to Jesus that are immoral?  I guess there are the hell passages too (like the parable of the weeds).  But I'm trying to compile as much as I can to counter the "well I don't believe in the Old Testament" argument.




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General Religious Discussion / Re: Dealing with HELL
« Last post by wheels5894 on Yesterday at 07:18:41 AM »

All good points but I'm talking about people who believe there is a literal Hell.  I could not find a shred of happiness if I believed there was a Hell.  I would lose my mind from sorrow.

Well, that's the problem with religion - believing in things without any evidence. Religions are really a mafia protection racket. The leader promises protection from hell... but at a high price and forces people to pay up. Look at Islam, for example, where no belief can result in death, Of course the leader in this is the pope the original godfather, still running his protection racket today though his hold is weaker than it was.
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General Religious Discussion / Re: Dealing with HELL
« Last post by junebug72 on Yesterday at 06:41:50 AM »
How do you do it?  How do you live knowing a loved one was not saved and is in Hell?

Many ways you could go around it.

Use the default position, and have no belief in hell.

Make hell a nice place, because hey, who says satan is bad? God? The murderer?

Make no one go to hell, because why would a loving god do that?

And more.

All good points but I'm talking about people who believe there is a literal Hell.  I could not find a shred of happiness if I believed there was a Hell.  I would lose my mind from sorrow. 

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Chatter / Re: The War on SJWs
« Last post by eh! on Yesterday at 01:50:46 AM »
Did you just admit that your earlier post made no sense and was just trolling, eh?

I quoted the wrong post, my bad.

Fix it later.
40
General Religious Discussion / Re: Having it both ways
« Last post by 12 Monkeys on January 22, 2017, 10:13:13 PM »
Skeptic..... my example wasn't really about 1 person surviving a plane crash out of 300....my example was a God that intervened at command(or plea) while ignoring others who plea(or command) at a time of dire need. The God works in mysterious ways cop out falls short when people who plead(or command) at a time of dire need are ignored,for a believer I would imagine that would be horrifying.

I can imagine it would feel horrifying. Maybe God saves certain people because they are part of His plan, and have to do a special task in life. I can not know for sure, but that is certainly not an unreasonable thought.
if he has special plans for these people,why would he put them in situations where they might die? When there are people out there who plead with God and get ignored,why does God concern himself with the .00000000001%of the people he has a'plan for' while ignoring 99.99999999% of the planet.....and if these .00000000001% of the population do absolutely nothing with the second chance God gives them,what then? Do you have evidence or even a story of someone doing something with their second chance?.....what have you done with your time since your intervention,other than falling on deaf ears here?....have you done ANYTHING of a spectacular nature we should know about?
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