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So, like the Greek gods, these spirit beings were able to have relations and even produce offspring with human females.[1] But I thought only god did that once, with Mary, and produced the only sprit-human ever in Jesus? Sounds like spirit-humans were pretty common at one time.

Putting aside the fact that all this is impossible, knowing what we know about DNA, what happened to all the spirit-human babies? If they were like Jesus, they didn't just die. They are immortal, right? Are they in heaven, or in hell? Maybe they are demons, now? What a comedown for them, since it was not their fault how they were made..... :(
 1. Why only male spirits and female humans is a puzzle. Sounds like the old sci fi stories where aliens from Mars were always male-- and hot for busty young human females who could then be rescued by the studly human hero...Maybe, like the sci fi stories, the bible accounts were written by (and for) rather immature men?
General Religious Discussion / Re: Umm, why not stop with Angels?
« Last post by wheels5894 on Today at 12:03:27 PM »
This is a really interesting question and one that deserves an answer. Sadly, I doubt there will be many Karma points given such an  for such an answer.

I'd like to mention a few pointers to a possible answer before suggesting that it probably isn't going to get an answer. Let's start with angels.

Now the chief function of angels in the OT is really to be messengers. Rather than god turning up everywhere (though he is apparently omni-present) he sends his messengers instead. I am sorry to say that this still sounds a lot like the idea of a god who is a clan leader or petty king raised above his station and put in charge of heaven. The idea that an omni-being needs messengers seems a bit odd anyway.

Now there's lots of expansion of the subject of angels in various places that include John's Revelation. Here, though, the angels are fighters - trying to defeat the powers of darkness (Gabriel mean warrior of god for example). It is almost as though we have Lord of the Rings in heaven. Once again, we wonder why the omni-being can't just take out the 'evil ones' by a word rather than have soldiers who apparently fight with swords if John is right.

So we might start by saying that if anyone created angels it was people, probably from 'other gods' who lost out in getting the top job given to YHWH. Given the improbability that an eternal omni-everything being would need to create angels to do the jobs it rather has to be down to the priests to have come up with this idea

Then there are people. Why were people, the earth and the universe created? This is the principle question that religion tries to answer but I'd like to show that it doesn't stand a chance. I think it is all down to looking at the bible carefully and not making any prior assumptions about what one might find in there.  A careful read of the first few chapters of Genesis show us people trying to explain why they are in the earth. By the time these stories were being written / redacted the eternal clan leader was well established and so the stories naturally use him in explanation.

Effectively the first three chapters of Genesis try to explain why we are here, why life is tough (growing things is hard and so is bearing children) and the like. Written by priests[1] the stories try to show how this clan leader chose to create people to worship him - just like real clan leaders like worship - ans how priests like the idea too, or course. Where I disagree with the theists particularly, is that I don't think the priests had the ear of any gods. Rather than being inspired as the bible is supposed to be, I think they came up with an inspired way to stay in power. Not having any knowledge of what went on at the moments of creation[2] they just 'made it up.' They came up with an order that seemed right to them though we can see modern science disagrees with large chucks of it.

So creation - made up by priests to explain how life was at the time and to ensure their own power of course.

So, the rest is not really worth bothering with. We can easily see that angels, creation and god are inventions of priests concerned with starting a cult. There's no significant point on speculating as to the motives of any god as gods don't respond to questions and non-existent ones don't respond at all. The only answer is the whole thing is man-made based on clan chiefs. of course if anyone can actually get an answer from a real god....
 1. probably the only literate people at the time
 2. Loosely expressed as the priests didn't know about modern cosmology
Here is a good example of "shifting the goal posts", skeptic. We pointed out to you that animals exhibit emotions similar to jealousy,  demonstrating evidence that emotions could be the result of evolution. That implies that humans are not that special, and no need to insert demons. You changed the argument to one about animals not punishing other animals for jealousy, etc.  That is shifting the goal posts!

The point was that the source of jealousy could be evolution. You could not address that point, so you changed the subject to being about how species react to jealousy.

Why not address my point about how animals have evolved territorial instincts, and that could be the source of similar behavior in humans? Instead, you talk about how bees don't have jail, ie punishments for misbehavior, but people do. First of all, skeptic, how do you know? Bees have very complex societies. You might want to look into that before you make a statement about bees or other animals without doing any research. The google machine is your friend. Use it.

Secondly, the fact that people in every culture have jail or other punishment for bad behavior is a strike against your argument. You stated that  humans who do bad things are controlled by demons,  and only Christians can detect and resist these demons. Why, then, would Hindus, Muslims and people who worship the volcano gods all have "jail" ie moral rules and punishments for breaking them?

Aren't all those non-Christian people controlled by demons? Non-Christian cultures should be just wild 'n crazy hellishly sinful hippie free-for-alls where anything goes. That is clearly not the case. Muslim countries tend to have much more strict rules than Christian societies, and people tend to obey them. In Japan, where there are almost no Christians, or any religion to speak of, there is almost no violent crime. When people do those "honesty tests" where they leave a wallet full of money and see if people steal it or turn it in, guess what? Atheist Scandinavian countries like Denmark and the Hindu country of India both scored higher than countries where people are more influenced by Christianity.

Are the demons falling down on the job? Are they scared of anime? Or are you again going to shift the goal posts and say that the demons try harder in Christian countries. Since the Japanese are already on their way to hell, the demons leave them and other non-Christian people alone.

Be careful! Because then you are saying that it is indeed possible for people to be moral and good--in an everyday, not killing each other sense-- without Christianity. In fact is easier to be good without Christianity than with it. Being a Christian means demons are after you, so you are more likely to be bad! Do you want to go there?

Finally, a logic puzzle for skeptic. I will prove that his god is not a Christian, using his own statements.

1) A person does not have negative emotions like jealousy unless infected by demons. (Negative emotions cannot arise naturally, per skeptic.)
2) Christians like skeptic can detect and resist demons, so can avoid negative emotions like jealousy. (You never see a Christian being jealous, per skeptic.)
2) The bible does not lie. (If it is in the bible it has to be the truth, per skeptic.)
3) The bible says that god is jealous, per the bible which does not lie.
4) If god is jealous, he is infected by demons. Christians like skeptic can detect and resist demons.
5) God is jealous, which means he cannot detect and resist the demons even as well as skeptic.

Therefore god is not a Christian.

Care to refute any of those points, skeptic?

Who wants to bet that Skeptic will look at all these succinct and logical arguments, and decide to focus on one minor detail practically unrelated to the rest of the post? Either that or offer another of his patented analogies.
General Religious Discussion / Umm, why not stop with Angels?
« Last post by Defiance on Today at 11:05:41 AM »
What's the need to make less powerful creatures?

For this topic, I will entertain the idea that despite God not needing anything (because he is perfect blah blah blah), he still had the need to do something, such as make things, out of whatever reason. Bonus: If a theist can also solve this contradiction, you get a Karma!

So, God made this flying monkey things, then he felt the need to make humans? Why?

So not only did he foresee that his first creations, Angels, would screw up with the fall, but ALSO that his second creation, humans, would screw up with the Apple.

Who the duck put this idiot in charge?
Is it true Skeptic that (according to Christian belief anyways) demons are supposed to be fallen angels?  If so, wouldn't they have come from God?

Elementary, dear Emma. The apple does not fall far from the tree.

JST has still not answered my question on the other thread; "who made pride?"

Maybe this Skeptic guy can.
God must be bad at this creation gig.  Angels are suppose to be perfect creatures.  Guess not.  Adam and Eve, what a mess that was.  Noah and the flood.  I still say if this God thing does exist we got the special ed of Gods.
General Religious Discussion / Re: "I Was Once an Atheist"
« Last post by Defiance on Today at 10:56:28 AM »

Other people here I kind enough to entertain your blood-on-wall claims, just to keep you here a little longer.

But, I should have asked earlier; How do I know you're not lying? What evidence do you have to show?
Presuming Dennis JWB hasn't forgotten this thread, have you had a chance to look at replying to #33?



My mistake.  I was thinking about your question last night and wondering why I hadn't gotten to it yet because I remember reading it.

Quote from: OCG
What is your understanding of the Nephilim mentioned in Genesis? 

As always,


"Now when men started to grow in number on the surface of the ground and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of the true God*+ began to notice that the daughters of men were beautiful. So they began taking as wives all whom they chose. 3 Then Jehovah said: “My spirit will not tolerate man indefinitely,+ because he is only flesh.* Accordingly, his days will amount to 120 years.”
4 "The Neph?i·lim* were on the earth in those days and afterward. During that time the sons of the true God continued to have relations with the daughters of men, and these bore sons to them. They were the mighty ones of old times, the men of fame.
(Gen 6:1-4)

Let's start with the identity of the "sons of the true God".  I understand that these were spirit sons of God.  They could not have been human worshipers of Jehovah because only Noah and his family had God's favor and were preserved through the flood.  If they were humans then the question also arises of why were their offspring "men of fame" moreso that other humans?  Also, why mention their marriages with the "daughters of men" as if it were something special?  If they were humans then there would be nothing special about that. 

That they were spirit sons of God is consistent with other scriptures.  For one, "sons of God" is used in the scriptures in reference to heavenly angels (Job 1:6; 38;7) so calling them that is not out of place.  Others scriptures seem to make reference to them and they are referenced as spirits.

"And in this state he [Jesus] went and preached to the spirits in prison,+ 20 who had formerly been disobedient when God was patiently waiting* in Noah’s day,+ while the ark was being constructed,+ in which a few people, that is, eight souls,* were carried safely through the water. (1 Peter 3:19, 20)

"And the angels who did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place,+ he has reserved with eternal bonds in dense darkness for the judgment of the great day." (Jude 6)

"Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned,+ but threw them into Tar?ta·rus,*+ putting them in chains* of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment." (2 Peter 2:4)

That is how I understand the "sons of the true God".  The Nephilim I have always understood them to be the offspring of these spirit sons of God and the daughters of men.  It has always seemed like the most logical conclusion to me.  However, there are other beliefs and here's where things get a little scholarly.  I am not a scholar so I will quote to more thoroughly answer your question.

Bible commentators, considering verse 4, have offered several suggestions as to the identity of these Nephilim. Some have thought that the derivation of the name indicates that the Nephilim were ‘fallen angels,’ angels who sinned. Others, using a remarkable line of reasoning, conclude that the designation Nephilim itself indicates that they ‘fell from heaven’ in that they were ‘begotten by heavenly beings.’ Other scholars, focusing their attention particularly on the statement “and also after that” (vs 4), have said the Nephilim were not ‘fallen angels’ or the “mighty ones,” since the Nephilim “proved to be in the earth in those days” before the sons of God had relations with women. These latter scholars hold the opinion that the Nephilim were simply wicked men like Cain—robbers, bullies, and tyrants who roamed the earth until they were destroyed by the Flood. Still another group, taking into consideration not only the meaning of the name Nephilim but also the context of verse 4, conclude that the Nephilim were not themselves angels, but were the hybrid offspring resulting from materialized angels having intercourse with the daughters of men.

Certain Bible translations adjust the location of the phrase “and also after that,” placing it near the beginning of verse 4, thus identifying the Nephilim with the “mighty ones,” the gib·bo·rim?, mentioned in the latter part of the verse. For example: “In those days, as well as afterward, there were giants [Heb., han·nephi·lim?] on the earth, who were born to the sons of the gods whenever they had intercourse with the daughters of men; these were the heroes [Heb., hag·gib·bo·rim?] who were men of note in days of old.”—Ge 6:4, AT; see also Mo, NIV, and TEV.
The Greek Septuagint also suggests that both the “Nephilim” and “mighty ones” are identical by using the same word gi?gan·tes (giants) to translate both expressions.
Reviewing the account, we see that verses 1 to 3 tell of “the sons of the true God” taking wives and of Jehovah’s statement that he was going to end his patience with men after 120 years. Verse 4 then speaks of the Nephilim proving to be in the earth “in those days,” evidently the days when Jehovah made the statement. Then it shows that this situation continued “after that, when the sons of the true God continued to have relations with the daughters of men,” and describes in more detail the results of the union of “the sons of the true God” with women.

I hope this answers your question.
After science finally finishes figuring this out, then, this website will have to change it's name because like all things that humans do, theists give all the credit for our work to God, and for anything evil that happens or for good things that should happen but don't... humans get the blame.

God & Jesus = Reverse Spider Men!    All of the power, but none of the responsibility.  Lol

All hail Ardra!!
General Religious Discussion / Re: "I Was Once an Atheist"
« Last post by Ron Jeremy on Today at 10:36:14 AM »
Re: Skep's blood on the wall telling him to get out; it's a bit melodramatic, isn't it? A supernatural entity feels the need to use a liquid made of water, bits of protein, amino acids, salts, etc as an ink instead of, oh I dunno, 'ink' maybe? And it uses its blood ink to tell you to 'get out'? Why? Why would it think you'd be afraid of blood?
Why does it need you to leave the building? Is it afraid of you? Why does a supernatural entity need to live in a man made house? Does it get cold? Is it afraid of the dark? Does it need sole use of the fridge?

This is what happens when you're an atheist. It isn't simply no belief in the Christian god; we have no belief in any of the supernatural. And the above is why; we question it.
That word is a cancer to religion. And that is why we find it so difficult to accept that an atheist, one who has asked all these questions, can become a theist.
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