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General Religious Discussion / Re: Hell and the end of life
« Last post by JeffPT on Yesterday at 09:13:51 PM »
I don't like to split hairs, but no we probably won't go to heaven.  The scriptures show that the majority of mankind will live upon the earth.

And the answer to your question is that I don't know.  I hope that we both will.  Both the righteous, and I don't count myself among them, and the unrighteous will be resurrected by Christ (Acts 24:15).  This is when that criminal that died with him will be resurrected.  He will be resurrected into a world, no longer ruled by Satan, but by Christ.  This is Judgment Day.  We will be individually judged by our actions.  Will we submit to the earthly rulership of Christ or will we rebel?  Rebels will be thrown into the "Lake of Fire" which is "second death".  There is no resurrection from second death.  It means eternal death.

However, there are some that will not be resurrected because Jehovah has already judged them.  Adam and Judas are the only individuals I can name, but there are others.  I hope you and I are not among them.  I don't want anyone to be among them and neither does Jehovah.  But there will be.  Jehovah doesn't want to destroy his creation.  But he cannot allow wickedness to exist forever.  It will be removed through instruction and by force where necessary.

The bottom line is this.  If we are redeemable Jehovah will redeem us, if not in this world then in the one to come.  But there will come a time in everyone's life, in this world or the next, where active participation is required.  Jehovah, through Christ's rulership will perfect us, but we must be willing to be perfected.  Do you love your neighbor?  Good.  Then do it more and more.

But the greatest love of all is the love of God.  He is not a dictator.  He is an ally.  Someone to help us as we reach out for better things.  Someone to encourage us when we need it, guide us when we are confused, comfort us when we're at our ends, and yes, give us a kick in the backside when we need it.  He also assures us that our love is not in vain. 

Jehovah can take what is good in us and make it better.  He can refine it.  He can perfect it.  But this requires active participation on our part.

But the best reason to have Jehovah in the equation is just because he's that awesome.  He doesn't put a hedge around us to stop bad things from happening to us in this world.  Christ's rulership is the time for that, when Satan is locked away.  But while we may suffer in this world, he is always there, willing and able to support us.  When your parents die, your spouse divorces you, your children disown you, you lose your job, and your dog gets shot, Jehovah will still be there.  He is an immovable object to hold onto.  He will never let you fall and not get up.  All he wants in return is for us to love him back, and look after each other and know that these conditions will not always exist.

"He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end. I know that there is nothing better for people than to be happy and to do good while they live. That each of them may eat and drink, and find satisfaction in all their toil—this is the gift of God." (Ecc 3:11-13)

Every line of this is utter bullshit.  There is not a single spec of evidence that any of what you're saying here is true.  It's just blather.  There is no heaven, there is no hell, there is no satan, there is no Christ, there is no Jehovah.  None of it is real. 

It's 2014.  I don't understand how grown-up people can still believe this crap. 
General Religious Discussion / Re: Atheists know more about religion
« Last post by Jag on Yesterday at 09:05:44 PM »

More over, there are an extraordinary number of people, particularly Christians, who do not know that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are the Abrahamic faiths, or even what that means. There are people who insist that Muslims do not pray to the same god as Christians. This is grossly ignorant of the history of major world religions, not just minor ones.

The reaction from my classmates during a presentation last year when my project partner made the point that Muslims, Jews and Christians all follow the same god was priceless. There were actual audible gasps, some shocked expressions, a few who looked offended, and a few who suddenly looked kind of thoughtful.... I was a little surprised because it's kinda "churchy" here[1] in out-state. My partner used the term "the three Abrahamic faith traditions" and only two students (excluding our group of four) knew what he was referring to - and yes, one of them was the only Muslim student in the class.

I spend a LOT of time with young adults and they can be fun to talk to - they're trying on lots of new ideas and starting to reconsider their place in a larger world so I get to witness a lot of "moments of clarity". I also try to inspire a few - every now and then, I drop a little religious trivia into a conversation with some of them. I'm very careful about content and delivery - my intention is not to make them defensive, just to observe something off-handed - and it seems to be sparking other conversations later. I'm doing my part to make atheists a little less scary here. It's actually quite fun sometimes  ;)

Edit: footnoted for clarity
 1. turns out, my surprise in the moment reinforces your point, and I wouldn't have known at their age either. I knew Jews and Christians followed the same god, but when I was their age, I had a brand new baby and we were heading toward DS1 in Iraq - I hadn't had any reason to pay attention to Islam until then. Politics wouldn't have clued me in, so without shedding my religious skin, I may never have noticed it to be honest.
Kinda' found this interesting.

The Freedom From Religion Foundation’s ad featuring Ron Reagan describing himself as “an unabashed atheist” has been rejected for airing by CBS, not only by “60 Minutes,” the desired placement, but for any CBS TV show.

The ad aired last May on both “The Daily Show” and “The Colbert Report” on Comedy Central.

A CBS agent indicated that the ad was rejected “for words and tone.”

"It seems that excess gas, erectile dysfunction and other intimate bodily functions, not to mention ads wherein political candidates viciously attack each other, are acceptable,” added Dan Barker, who co-directs FFRF. “But the plain-spoken, witty and slightly irreverent remarks of a well-known figure identifying as atheist are too much for the delicate sensibilities of CBS’ censors.”

“Why are atheism and freethought still treated as socially unacceptable, even though fully a fifth of the population has no religion today?” Gaylor asked? “If anything should be socially unacceptable, it ought to be blind deference to religion.”
Chatter / Rock Hashanah or Hip Hop Hashanah?
« Last post by Chronos on Yesterday at 08:42:35 PM »

General Religious Discussion / in need of coaching again;
« Last post by eh! on Yesterday at 08:41:21 PM »
a theist gave me this to an invitation to debate, the part in bold WTF, where do you even start??? clearly the reasoning is that OT horrors are not bad cos god did them and we are his property and you can't do wrong against your own property.

"I am a literalist and claim that God’s word is inerrant, infallible, and true - but you must look at context of verses and not pull them out randomly.

i don’t believe in the 144,000 like the Jehovah witness, and yes there are many religions and even sects within christianity that are close but incorrect - “the most dangerous lies are those that are closer to the truth”

Your paradigm on christianity is distorted... You can argue scripture all you want but you cannot argue with a changed life. also - heaven is not the ultimate goal for the christian who is thinking right - its a stronger relationship with Christ that you get to enjoy now... and one day will be perfect without flesh

stick to one part until we get a conclusion - like God being psychotic. if i create something I can do what i want with it - and you have no say Period! He created - he owns - and he is not psychotic - those are things to say, if you could only know Him - that is not who He is "
^ ???
Introductions / Re: My Path from Islam to Christianity to Sanity
« Last post by Nam on Yesterday at 08:27:00 PM »
ps I would love to hear some of our theists weigh in on this young lady's situation.....

skeptic: Islam is run by the demons. Chinese Christianity is the wrong Christianity and therefore is run by demons. Atheism is the epitome of demonism, and you are ruled by demons.

Jesuis : You are not a true atheist. You are a theist who thinks they are an atheist. I am the only true atheist.

Lukvance: Who are you?

magicmiles: My wife won't allow me to read this.

OldChurchGuy: Welcome to the website.

Did I get it right?


The Emergency Room / Re: Lukvance
« Last post by Nam on Yesterday at 08:17:55 PM »
She is a funny gal.

Didn't we have someone here who said that the flood was actually god being merciful because drowning is a painless and peaceful way to die? And the babies who died went to heaven and became angels or some such.

I guess when those psycho moms drown their children, we should let them off with a citation or a fine, because drowning is painless and merciful. Just like waterboarding (simulated drowning) painless and merciful. That's why it is used as a torture technique to try to break the will of hardened terrorists......

I think religion softens the logic bones in the brains of some people.  &)
General Religious Discussion / Re: Atheists know more about religion
« Last post by Chronos on Yesterday at 08:03:51 PM »
No that is not what it shows.  It's not about the knowedge a believer has about their own faith, but about the knowedgle of a group of religions.  Because a believer cannot answer questions about another religion doesn't make them less knowedgable about their own.  They may be and I'm not making any claims, but the link does not show believers are less knowedgable about their own religion than outsiders.  They may be ignorant of other religions but be experts of their own.

I don't expect Christians to know a lot about Hinduism. It's completely separate and foreign to them. Of course, there are many ways to learn about Hinduism even just a little, and those ways often do not involve the direct study of religion. In humanities classes about history and philosophy there are often references to other gods or goddesses, such as Zeus or Shiva, or special non-god states like Bodhisattva. There's even a pop/rock song with that title:

Shouldn't that cause someone to open a dictionary or encyclopedia to find out what Bodhisattva is? Did me.

To deny hearing about them or having a little knowledge of who they are is to state that you either never took any class in humanities (even in middle or high school) that would have exposed you to them, or you have decided to forget about them. Even works of fiction such has romance and crime novels (not religious-themed books) have these references, however casual.

More over, there are an extraordinary number of people, particularly Christians, who do not know that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are the Abrahamic faiths, or even what that means. There are people who insist that Muslims do not pray to the same god as Christians. This is grossly ignorant of the history of major world religions, not just minor ones.

I cannot remember which game show it was (a game show!), but I saw a question posed to the contestants which asked whether Maimonides was Jewish, Christian or Muslim. I knew Maimonides was a Jewish figure (hell, most of them were!), but all of the contestants except one guessed that Maimonides was Christian. Why? His name was in the bible. The average Christian on the street does not recognize that Joseph and Mary were Jewish -- they know that they were Hebrew, but not Jewish. A fundamental precept of Christianity is that the Messiah could only be born unto a Jew.[1] Many recognize that Jesus was Hebrew, but not Jewish. This is not helped by groups like this:

You cannot understand the world in which you live until you understand the people within it, and that includes learning about their religions.
 1. The Jewish messiah is a leader anointed by God, physically descended from the Davidic line, who will rule the united tribes of Israel[4] and herald the Messianic Age[5] of global peace also known as the World to Come.
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