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this is a very interesting distinction that I had never thought of. How often is the phrase "free will" invoked to describe the impulse to do something positive?

Very silly. Of course we have the free will to do good things.

Well, I don't know about silly - maybe even the fact of free will is silly. After all, if god knows already who is going to heaven and who to hell and he has all our actions 'written in his book' then we are actually far from possessing free will but, in fact, only the illusion of free will.

Of course, your god, knowing just how everyone will act in the world knows who will make good or  bad choices using their 'free will' - he would have know this even before he populated the world. It seems as though his choices were hardly to the good of our race given the religious wars over the centuries.

So even though people, according to you, have free will in their actions it seems that even the religious are not that good with their free will as theirs and industry set up to help people removed their sin caused by free will actions. Are you seriously suggesting that your god made good choices?
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Doesn't sin have to exist in order to have someone die for them?

Of course, which is why the Torah, written by priests, is full of rules that are easily broken - meaning they are sins - for which people had to seek forgiveness. The Christian Church took up the idea and the Catholics have lists of sins for which confession and so on is needed. They need people to sin to keep in business so they make sure the rules make in more or less impossible to live sinlessly.

Actually, I wonder if the Catholics have a staff discount scheme for their priests.... maybe 50% off for the more serious sins....
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...and the "free will" of good people to do nothing about it.

-Nam
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If he was an intelligent shooter, and if he knew (and why wouldn't he on such a ridiculous law as allowing that?) what he was walking into, he'd shoot the ones that could visibly see him first, wouldn't he? Of course he would.

-Nam
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Chatter / Re: A Different "Nam" Than You're Used To
« Last post by Nam on Today at 01:29:32 AM »
I just found this in an old notebook (I got like a hundred or so). I remember writing it but it's in French, and my French is rusty:

Belle Nuit

Étoiles - humidité de la nuit
Le temps du soir dégage un vent frais
Comme le soleil respirez un beau matin


David Garrett Arnold
Avril 5 2003

--

Dude, I wrote that 12+ years ago. I bet I fucked up on the French. I slept most of the time in French class. Signed my name "je ne sais pas" countless times that that's all I remember today.

;)

-Nam
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Skep,why can people attribute having life saved by a deity,but not blame  deity for deaths?

There's plenty of people who blame God for deaths. I don't agree with them, but they do blame God and curse God.
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If it was up to some people in the US, they'd not only allow children to own guns but make it mandatory for everyone to own a gun. And they don't see how they are the fascist dictators, or at least want to be.

-Nam

Nam, I don't agree with children having guns but if almost every adult had a gun, a lot of these mass shootings would stop with less casualties. If everyone in the movie theater had a gun when James Holmes went into it, he would have been shot dead very quickly and wouldn't have been able to take all those lives. Plus, it might have deterred him from even committing the act in the first place.
No. Noooooo. No. Adding more guns to the mix raises the numbers of casualties, almost guaranteed. Real life is not like the movies. Please repeat that to yourself anytime you start thinking that a gun will automatically make you safer, because in the movies, the good guys always make that perfect shot and only hit the bad guys.[1]

Do you seriously think that 25 people, armed with loaded weapons, some with no training at all, in a dark, crowded movie theater, will all know exactly where the sound of gunfire came from and be able to accurately pinpoint who among the other 25 screaming people waving guns around is the bad guy? If you think that, you have seen too many Dirty Harry/Ahhnold/Bruce Willis/Rambo-type action movies.

Because in real life, you cannot tell where gunshots are coming from in an enclosed space (or outside for that matter). Most people, even with practice, are terrible shots under stress. And once shots are fired, it gets smoky and harder to see. People panic and scream and run around. It is chaos.

See, the problem is, the psycho is probably not afraid of dying. You are. He is also not afraid to shoot. You are. He is ready for screaming and chaos. You are not. Pull out a gun and he will not put his weapon down. You will hesitate because you are not a psycho killer. You will be facing the wrong way. And he will just shoot you in the back.

Adding more weapons to an already dangerous scenario is guaranteed to raise the numbers of casualties and might even help the bad guy escape. Since there is no longer just one shooter to locate, but several, there is no way to know if there are multiple bad guys. The police arrive and see lots of people with guns, some firing at each other. A nightmare that just got much worse.

No. More guns is not the answer. Fewer guns and more mental health services is the answer. But we keep cutting mental services and buying more guns. And despite having more guns per capita than most modern countries, only in the US do these mass shootings continue to happen. Boy we live in a crazy-a$$ country. :P
 1. There are a few situations where having a gun, and being trained in how to use it correctly, might make you safer. But in crowded public places? No.

You are absolutely right. I once again, spoke too quickly without thinking it through. I assumed that everyone in the theater was calm, cool, and rational. I imagined a few people that are right next to the shooter will quickly put him down. I did not stop to think that everyone else in the theater might start randomly firing.
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Also, since god made the brain tumors and other abnormalities that make people violent maniacs, and does not interfere with their free will by making those tumors, etc disappear, we should not interfere with the free will of those people, either. We should not treat such tumors or give anti-psychotic medication to the Jeffrey Dahmers of the world.

We should do as god wishes and let maniacs use their god-given free will to run loose, raping and killing all they want. If god did not want them to be maniacs, he would have given them different brains. The world is just as god wants it to be, or else he would have made it a different world.

I swear, when you follow a Christian's logic all the way out, you get a Hindu.

So you would use your free will to allow a murderer to use his free will to kill someone? This would indicate that you are OK with murder. God wants us to use our free will to do good things, not bad things.

Nobody curses God if an 85 year old grandma dies in her sleep. Yet, God still allowed her to die. If a 70 year old dies in their sleep, nobody curses God. But you have a 60 year old die in their sleep, then it becomes a little "iffy" and people start cursing God. It seems everyone wants to "play God" and decide which age is the "cut off" age for dying in their sleep.

No, not me, god.

God uses his free will to allow murderers to kill people every day. I am better than that. I have actually saved people's lives in disasters, because I knew that god was not going to do it. I saved a woman's life (pulling her from the window of a bus that exploded) while she sat there praying for god to help her, and god was going to let her burn up.[1]

I am more moral than god, kinder than god, braver than god, because if I knew that someone with mental problems was heading to his former workplace with a loaded gun, I would alert the police or do something else to stop it.  God knew all about it, and yet did nothing to stop it. No warning to the cops, no car accident, no sudden heart attack or stroke. No jammed weapon. God could have stopped the guy any number of ways without violating his free will, and chose not to. This makes god either weak, incompetent, immoral or amoral. Or nonexistent. Which kind of god do you worship, skeptic?

From what we observe in the world, we can only assume that god is okay with murder. We know he has no problem dealing out death. God, as you said, kills grandma in her sleep at 85 or 65. Why didn't god kill this guy in his sleep the night before? Why not kill all murdering psychos in their sleep so they do not get the chance to murder? Does god have a quota of people who he must allow to use their free will to murder other folks?

The more you tell us about your god, skeptic, the less he seems worthy of worship.  :P
 1. And if you say that god used an evil atheist like me to save the woman, than you are saying that god did not care about my free will. He took over my evil uncaring atheist will and used me as his do-goody puppet. But he did not do that to the crazy killer-- god did not take him over and use him like a puppet and make him put down that gun before firing it. He cares about the free will of murderers, you see.

One of the consequences of allowing people to have free will is that some people will choose to perform evil actions.
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Also, since god made the brain tumors and other abnormalities that make people violent maniacs, and does not interfere with their free will by making those tumors, etc disappear, we should not interfere with the free will of those people, either. We should not treat such tumors or give anti-psychotic medication to the Jeffrey Dahmers of the world.

We should do as god wishes and let maniacs use their god-given free will to run loose, raping and killing all they want. If god did not want them to be maniacs, he would have given them different brains. The world is just as god wants it to be, or else he would have made it a different world.

I swear, when you follow a Christian's logic all the way out, you get a Hindu.

So you would use your free will to allow a murderer to use his free will to kill someone? This would indicate that you are OK with murder. God wants us to use our free will to do good things, not bad things.

Nobody curses God if an 85 year old grandma dies in her sleep. Yet, God still allowed her to die. If a 70 year old dies in their sleep, nobody curses God. But you have a 60 year old die in their sleep, then it becomes a little "iffy" and people start cursing God. It seems everyone wants to "play God" and decide which age is the "cut off" age for dying in their sleep.

No, not me, god.

God uses his free will to allow murderers to kill people every day. I am better than that. I have actually saved people's lives in disasters, because I knew that god was not going to do it. I saved a woman's life (pulling her from the window of a bus that exploded) while she sat there praying for god to help her, and god was going to let her burn up.[1]

I am more moral than god, kinder than god, braver than god, because if I knew that someone with mental problems was heading to his former workplace with a loaded gun, I would alert the police or do something else to stop it.  God knew all about it, and yet did nothing to stop it. No warning to the cops, no car accident, no sudden heart attack or stroke. No jammed weapon. God could have stopped the guy any number of ways without violating his free will, and chose not to. This makes god either weak, incompetent, immoral or amoral. Or nonexistent. Which kind of god do you worship, skeptic?

From what we observe in the world, we can only assume that god is okay with murder. We know he has no problem dealing out death. God, as you said, kills grandma in her sleep at 85 or 65. Why didn't god kill this guy in his sleep the night before? Why not kill all murdering psychos in their sleep so they do not get the chance to murder? Does god have a quota of people who he must allow to use their free will to murder other folks?

The more you tell us about your god, skeptic, the less he seems worthy of worship.  :P
 1. And if you say that god used an evil atheist like me to save the woman, than you are saying that god did not care about my free will. He took over my evil uncaring atheist will and used me as his do-goody puppet. But he did not do that to the crazy killer-- god did not take him over and use him like a puppet and make him put down that gun before firing it. He cares about the free will of murderers, you see.

It does violate your free will if God does not allow you to go through with your intended action.
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Rod Serling voice: We are traveling in a place where logic and reason dare not enter-- look there is a signpost up ahead. We just got trapped in the skeptic zone. [Ominious music]

Demons are only interested in faithful Christians, so they create all these hundreds of false religions, knowing that faithful Christians will not be interested in them. They want to attract non-Christians although those people are already lost. But demons are not worried about us atheists, because we are already lost, already. God has also given up on us. We can't get any action from god or demons. It is so lonely.  :-\

And the demons answer prayers and do miracles for the people who follow the false religions. Jesus answered prayers and did miracles. So, does that make Jesus a demon? Mohammed did not answer any prayers, so he must have been working for the real god. It's so confusing :?

Meanwhile, the real god does not answer prayers or do miracles for his faithful followers. I guess that is how you can tell when you are following a demon and not the true god. Demons answer your prayers and do miracles. If you pray and never get an answer or a miracle, you know you are praying to the real god. Or maybe to nobody. But at least you are not praying to a demon, because then you might get your prayer answered.

Makes perfect sense. In the skeptic zone.  ;)
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