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Chatter / Re: "What are you listening to now"... take three...
« Last post by jdawg70 on Yesterday at 09:37:02 PM »
General Religious Discussion / Re: Why should God heal amputees?
« Last post by Jstwebbrowsing on Yesterday at 09:20:56 PM »
The Bible teaches there is only one form of pure worship.

Quote from: jdawg
You know that there are other books that other people genuinely believe are the communications from the divine, right?  You know that there are other people out there that genuinely believe both that god is a real and active entity in reality and that the bible has nothing to do with him, right?


And again, you seem to be completely and utterly missing the point.  Or you recognize the point but just don't want to deal with it.  I dunno.  I mean - it predicts false teachers.  That's great, but it doesn't help to discern between false teachers and true teachers.  Again, just look at you and skeptic54768 - you both assert the divine infallibility of the bible, and you both come to a lot of very different conclusions regarding what it actually says.  Now, from my perspective, there is an easy solution: ask the teacher.  The problem that I see is that both you and skeptic54768 keep conflating "asking the teacher" with "asking the text book."  Those aren't the same thing!

I can empathize with this, however the scriptures to tell us how to identify the difference.  Strangely, is has less to do with what they teach and more do with with how they live their lives.  Let's run through what the scriptures say.

1.  "Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ?+ This is the antichrist,+ the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Everyone who denies the Son does not have the Father either.+ But whoever acknowledges the Son+ has the Father also." (1 Jn 2:22)

A true teacher will not deny that Jesus is the Christ.

2.  "By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.” (Jn 13:35)

This does not just mean love among those inside of a church building.  It means love among the entire association of brothers and sisters.  "Honor men of all sorts,+ have love for the whole association of brothers,*+ be in fear of God,+ honor the king" (1 Peter 2:17). 

A true teacher will be part of an association of brothers and sisters that are bound together by their love of God and of one another.     

3.  "By their fruits you will recognize them" (Mt 7:16)

A true teacher will be in compliance with Christ's instructions and demonstrate [all] the fruits of the spirit (John 14:15; Gal 5:22,23).

4.  "Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations,+ baptizing them+ in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you..." (Mt 28:19, 20 see also Mt 24:14)

A true teacher, like Christ before him/her, will be zealous preacher about God's Kingdom.

5.  "This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham,+ the God of Isaac,+ and the God of Jacob,+ has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever,+ and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation" (Gen 3:15)

A true teacher will honor Jehovah's name.  "You must not take up the name of Jehovah your God in a worthless way,+ for Jehovah will not leave unpunished the one who takes up His name in a worthless way. (Exodus 20:7 see also Mt 6:9)

I will research this some more if you like but these are the first things that come to mind.

And for the record I have no animosity toward Skep.  I imagine there are some beliefs that he and I hold seperately, but that is not how I have formed my opinion of him.  I do not know him well but he exhibits Christlike behavior on this forum.  That is evidence of holy spirit.  So who am I to judge who God has chosen to give his spirit? 

That does not mean that Skep knows everything or that he and I have to agree about everything or that there is nothing we could teach one another.  It means he is on the right path and as a person that shares the same struggles, I respect that.

For me, I, for one, do my best to not go beyond what is written as a protection for my own teachings.  I can tell you what is written, and YOU make the judgements.

I'm going to ask you this again - do you talk to a lot of non-JWs and, more importantly, a lot of ex-JWs?  I just really get the sense that you genuinely do not understand that there are people out there that genuinely believe that they have a genuine personal relationship with god and that their understanding of god and his expectations for his beloved creations are very different from yours.

Yes, I understand that, but I don't understand your point.  If we were to say that group X has the most accurate beliefs, does that mean noone outside of group X can have a relationship with God?

I can tell you what the scriptures do/don't say to the best of my ability.  I cannot tell you whether or not someone has a relationship with God based soley on what group they do/don't belong to. 

Look at the apostle Paul.  He started out presecuting the Christian congregation.  He was not part of group X.  But his relationship with God brought him through that.  You can't always judge a book by it's cover.

I think you are asking me to prove that JWs are the true religion.  I am not going to attempt to do so.  I have posted some of what the scriptures say.  Let them guide you, not me.  I may be a stumbling block.

What makes you think I rule out god's existence?  Are you really confident that you understand what 'lacking belief' actually entails?

Do you understand the difference between 'leaving a door open' and 'stepping through an open door'?

Well it's really hard for me to keep all of your personal belief's seperate although I do try.  I know that some of you have a more open door than others, but I couldn't tell you who is who.

General Religious Discussion / Re: Why should God heal amputees?
« Last post by Jstwebbrowsing on Yesterday at 07:40:13 PM »
I don't know what you guys expect.  In my reply to Jdawg in reply #96 I answered the questions.

Yes, it's possible to believe something that is not true and I suppose it's also possible to believe the correct thing for wrong reasons.

I expressed my views about reason #1.

Well I'm sure miraculous signs would have some effect, but I have doubts that it would be as effectual as a lot of people seem to think.  After all the signs the Israelites witnessed they still created and worshiped a golden calf while Moses was on the mountain.  The religious leaders, not having any other explanation, said Christ was working miracles with the power of Beelzebub.  Certainly these people believed in Jehovah, but simply having a belief in his existense wasn't enough. 

However, in the time of Christ some did believe because of what they saw (Jn 20:29).  But yet there were people that saw the same things and did not believe.  So I really question if a sign alone is enough for people to turn to God.

I expressed a disagreement, but pointed out that my point is not to argue.

I ended with another answer to a question.

[understand the what but not the why of it.  I can understand why people may disagree on certain points, but not why people would just not believe at all.  Take a look at this argument.

1.  A loving God would do X.
2.  X does not occur.
3.  Because X does not occur then God does not exist.

This is how I see many atheist arguments.  It does not convince me because I do not agree with the premise.[/quote]

So what is missing besides an argument that I am right and Jdawg is wrong?

You seem to think it is somehow my job to convince you that the scriptures are true, but it is not.  It's your job to determine whether or not they are a true.

Furthermore, the scriptures clearly counsel Christians against arguments.  They stir up contentions, divisions, anger, and wrath.  Whether or not it is wise to heed scriptural counsel I will leave up to you.  As for me, I must obey God. 
Forum Announcements / Re: New Moderators
« Last post by junebug72 on Yesterday at 07:27:36 PM »
Great news.  Congratulations gentlemen.  This is a good choice.  Can't wait to see the video.  :laugh:
Chatter / Re: An uncomfortably typical situation.
« Last post by junebug72 on Yesterday at 07:18:37 PM »
Hoping for the best possible outcome Mr. Blackwell.   We will be here whenever you have time. 
Thanks for pointing that out.  I never thought about that part, like unto it.
Chatter / Re: How does free speech work?
« Last post by wright on Yesterday at 07:08:59 PM »
^^^That last line is what seems to catch many folks by surprise.

Offhand I don't know of any societies where free speech is both permitted and consequence-free. Particularly now, when one person's casual or not-so-casual remarks can be easily heard or read by millions within seconds. When you have a potential audience that big, it's unsurprising a few of them are going to disagree with you.

And they can be voicing that disagreement to you and those same millions a few moments later.
Forum Announcements / Re: New Moderators
« Last post by Defiance on Yesterday at 07:05:27 PM »
Great. My heart has been feeling a little heavy since Screwtape left his position. This will help assuage the pain. :')
MailBag / The latest at
« Last post by shnozzola on Yesterday at 07:04:45 PM »
If you want theist argument, there's some activity on Marshall's book site.
CD, I'll be back to show how AiG lies and address your other responses.   But I'll ask  you a question first:   can you fold mud?

Looking forward to hearing that (and I mean that with no sarcasm whatsoever, it's sometimes harder to convey in text when you can't hear or see the other person's reaction. :P).

And depends how you define fold in this context: You you mean can I pick some mud up, a little on each hand but close enough so it's still connected, and then press my palms together, then technically yes I can fold mud.  If by fold you mean structure it in a way that has two mostly flat sections and a clear crease, than no, since mud doesn't work like that.  You can build structures with it (part of the reason why people can build sandcastles and the like), but you can't "fold" mud in the same way you can fold paper.  You can take two mostly flat slabs of mud and press them together, but you can't take a piece of mud and try to fold it without it breaking apart.
that is not technically folding mud.  You must have a distinct surface and put it against itself.  Now, why doesn't mud "work like that"?

Mud doesn't work like that because the physical properties of mud don't allow it to fold and crease like paper does.  Paper is a single sheet that can be bent, whereas mud is a lot more malleable and doesn't have a set form.  If you hear the word "paper" most people will generally think of the same shape and structure, while mud is more of a solid that is more changeable in how it can be changed.  Basically it's a matter of physics and material properties.

You are right. If physical laws work this way, then the flood of the bible is nonsense because physical laws don't work like AiG claims. 

I've started another thread for this topic:,29889.msg702083.html#msg702083

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