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General Religious Discussion / Re: has xian pressup lost it's shine
« Last post by eh! on Today at 05:14:48 AM »
this one explains the argument on a technical level, personally I don't know why his opponents don't use his own argument back on him,

ie does god exist

yes

do you know this

yes

how do you know

etc ad naseum.

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Introductions / Re: Why I am right
« Last post by Mrjason on Today at 05:10:58 AM »
Hey folks

I am a bit confused.

I haven't quite picked up on the culture and all the finer points of these forums yet - and have been pulled up a accordingly on other threads.

I thought this this post would be a bit like a 'statement' post - to declare where you stand.
(It says no debating allowed?)


Hey Dennis,

Yeah you're right intros don't normally invite debate however the breathtaking arrogance of your intro is a challenge that folks couldn't let go unanswered.

The fact that you end with

Let's talk...

also seems to be inviting debate.
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General Religious Discussion / Re: has xian pressup lost it's shine
« Last post by eh! on Today at 04:54:51 AM »
thanks homm, I highly recommend this one as well, have another more tech one to find and post;

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dennis on what grounds do you know free will even exists?
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you can see him in the beauty of a flower
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I am still waiting for anyone to explain to me how that worldview actually makes sense of free will.

It doesn't.  Then again, no worldview makes sense of free will, including supernaturalist worldviews.
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dennis you previously mentioned, sorry can't find the quote, that you can not prove god using material methods, what methods with evidence to you claim to know that god exists?
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Azdgarie:
Quote
Yeah, this rarely gets addressed, right?  Case in point:  Dennis ignored this completely when he responded to you.  Christianity is incredibly egotistical.  It attempts to elevate humans over everything except divine beings - and even the divine beings are supposed to be super-focused on us!

Sorry mate, not sure what I ignored

What you ignored was the piece of jdawg's post that I had quoted in my post.  Here it is again, in case you missed it:

Yup.  Until we recognize that the lord and master of all reality created the entirety of reality because he loves humanity sooooooooooooooo much and sent his one and only son to be sacrificed and murdered for our sake and salvation, we're going to be a bit too full of pride.

You responded to jdawg's post, but ignored this ^^ part entirely.  Ignored it, as in, you didn't respond to it in any way.  Understand now?

and don't understand your summary. Or what I must disagree with? It is pretty fair in description - but you label that egotistical?

Well, let's see...

The Christian worldview is that man has dominion over the earth. Made in the image of God and all that. But we have a free will that we have used to try and elevate ourselves. Not sure how you connect the humility required to NOT consider ourselves gods as being egotistical?

It is egotistical because of the things you say (image of God, dominion over Earth, etc.), but also because of other things.  Supposedly, "God" (or
"Jesus") loves each of us personally.  The lord of all creation is intimately interested in our lives, according to most Christians.  That is a very self-important way of thinking.  Literally.  Because it says that we, ourselves, are immensely, cosmically important.

Naturalism doesn't put us up on such a pedestal.
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Azdgarie:
Quote
Yeah, this rarely gets addressed, right?  Case in point:  Dennis ignored this completely when he responded to you.  Christianity is incredibly egotistical.  It attempts to elevate humans over everything except divine beings - and even the divine beings are supposed to be super-focused on us!

Sorry mate, not sure what I ignored and don't understand your summary. Or what I must disagree with? It is pretty fair in description - but you label that egotistical?
The Christian worldview is that man has dominion over the earth. Made in the image of God and all that. But we have a free will that we have used to try and elevate ourselves. Not sure how you connect the humility required to NOT consider ourselves gods as being egotistical?


Skeptic54768
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Until we recognize that the lord and master of all reality created the entirety of reality because he loves humanity sooooooooooooooo much and sent his one and only son to be sacrificed and murdered for our sake and salvation, we're going to be a bit too full of pride.


That's correct. I know you are being sarcastic, but correct nevertheless.


Azdgari said:
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here is no conscious choice involved.  All that remains is acknowledging, or denying, that the change has occurred.


ParkingPlaces said:
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Choice, by definition, requires two or more options. In in matters of importance, it really helps that both options are real. If there is no god (and I'm more than sure enough that there isn't), choosing him over being an atheist is indeed not a choice.
Sure, I could lie to myself, but then the choice I made would be to lie to myself. 
I cannot choose a god in to existence.. I don't have that much pull in the universe. 
Nor can you. However much you think otherwise.

In fact ParkingPlace as I was on my 2-hr commute this morning it struck me that I did not really read that 'one-liner' thing right. Your explanation above and the one of Azdgari actually articulates the naturalist view correctly: there is no choice in the true sense of the word. Just neurons (as someone facetiously called Gandhi neurons) firing and chemical interactions happening. Or as Richard Dawkins described the 'blind indifference of the selfish gene.

I am still waiting for anyone to explain to me how that worldview actually makes sense of free will. (The thread was diverted into a mud-slinging stoush about sexuality.)

I.e.: HOW, if your brain and body is just a chemical soup that chanced into a particular formation, there would logically be a reason  to believe that the particular chemical composition that arrived at the 'solution' that naturalism (via science) is the right answer, can actually be construed to be the right answer? In this subjective/relative view of what is right (truth?) surely nothing is 'right' - it is just consensus fo similarity? Is my understanding correct?

Jag:
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Whatever christianity was intended to be has little to do with how christianity is expressed.

That is true. As I said before, you can't judge the football coach by the fans. Humans do stuff it up all the time - we TRY to seek God's way, but we don't know… and even if we are closer to the truth we still fuck it up.


Jdawg70
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We're accountable to everyone in the reality around us; more accountable to some, less accountable to others. 
See my comments about. This outcome of your worldview is that (by extension) that morality is relative - that we agreed what is nice to live with each other. I think morality is absolute.


And Jag again
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That last sentences also offers you an insight into how this forum works and what will be expected of you as a member.

I am learning :)
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Remind me again believers; why does your particular god endeavour to appear imaginary?
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