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General Religious Discussion / Re: Should We Fear God
« Last post by One Above All on Today at 12:49:56 PM »

Let me know when you intend to address the posts directed at you.
General Religious Discussion / Re: Should We Fear God
« Last post by junebug72 on Today at 12:43:28 PM »
You don't seem to get the part about understanding.

What makes you think it wants to be pleased?  Religion and nothing else. Where is the evidence a creator wants us to please it?

Most humans can understand that after suffering sexual abuse a young girl will most likely become promiscuous.  A boy will most likely become the abuser or self medicate their PTSD with drugs or alcohol.  Killers are made by drug addict parents or religious hatred of others. 

I believe criminals are made by environment not born that way.  Studies have shown that people with the so called killer gene does not become a killer when raised by loving parents.

I think of Charles Manson.  Raised by the state.   There are a lot of victims of circumstances.  Desperate people do desperate things. 

I see no downside to a creator loving us all the same or being indifferent.  Then we could focus on humanity and not gods.

Perceiving a god with conditions for love has historically been very dangerous.  Still is.

Well, Skep, I did post a thread a while ago about Hercules but I'll leave that for now. Presently we are debating Christians not Muslims. Christians are fixated on Jesus aren't they? If oyu want to talk about something else, why not start a thread about, say, Muhammad and Islam or Joseph Smith and the Mormons?
General Religious Discussion / Re: Should We Fear God
« Last post by wheels5894 on Today at 12:29:55 PM »
I imagine that the Christian would say that god loves everyone equally but, at the same time, hates everyone's sin. It is also often suggested that it doesn't matter what the sin is as they all separate people from the god that loves them. To be fair that does make some sense even if it doesn't seem that fair to us here in the world.

I haven't been following this topic, but I have a fairly straightforward answer to the question posed by the topic.

All worldviews, by their very nature, are attempts by the human mind to approximate reality.  This is because our mind is informed by our senses, which are severely limited, and thus our ability to perceive reality is, by nature, restricted.  So the only reasonable criteria for worldviews is how close they come to the actual reality of things.  That is to say, how accurate they are.

Notice that I did not say 'true'.  Truth is a purely human conceit; it is not something that actually exists in the universe.  Therefore, it is not something we can measure objectively.  We determine the truth or falseness of something based on how it compares to our accumulated knowledge.  Even things which seem axiomatically true to us, like 1+1=2, are only seen as true because that is how our minds work, rather than because of some universal quality they have.  In actual point of fact, they are not true; they simply are.

Oddly enough, Plato probably came closest to this concept, except he wandered off onto the unnecessary concept of eternal and unchanging forms that somehow cast shadows onto the reality we are able to perceive.  Still, all things being equal, that's not the worst way to look at it.  It is just that it is unwise to give things that we cannot even properly perceive with our senses qualities like 'eternal' and 'unchanging'.  The best way that I know to put it is that we are journeying through a reality that we cannot even properly perceive because our vision is so dim, and yet we are blissfully unaware of how little we truly see because it's all we're capable of seeing (at least until recently).
Sounds like propaganda to me.

Where are the books on Mohammad not existing?
Where are the books on Hercules not existing?
Where are the books on Buddha not existing?
Where are the books on the Hindu gods not existing?

It's always "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus!" That's how I know it's propaganda with an agenda. Nobody cares about anyone else. They are only fixated on Jesus, Jesus, Jesus.
What if a persons view was completely true but also made them a danger to themselves and others? What then?

Great question - so say ISIS  has everything spot on, and the 12th century is where Allah wants our mentality, our world view - I would rebel with every fiber of my being - having the intellect, curiosity, and my will to survive as I want  (IMO, this disproves Allah and proves evolution right there) - going proudly to the hell Allah has created for me, and guessing I won't be alone.

You have my bow.

Where I'm going, I'll need your arrows too.  :)  (Just joking, I understood which "bow")
When you tell a lie, for whatever reason, you are sacrificing truth for some other objective. How is this coherent.

If truth is the highest value, the ONLY value, then there should never be any justifiable reason to tell a lie, EVER.

The truth is, I love my wife.
The truth is, I want her to be happy.
The truth is, she looks fat in that dress.

Which truth do I violate when she asks me how she looks? 

I'm quite disappointed though.  I thought this thread of yours had the potential to work towards something useful.  Confusing, yes, but I thought it had potential.  Yet now you seem to want to conflate worldview with trivia.  Further, you seem to be unable to distinguish between the criteria for a worldview, and the worldview itself.

I feel that a worldview should be based on truth.  But that in no way necessitates a requirement for every statement ever uttered to be inescapably true.

For example, my worldview may need to be based on the truth of whether the planet is made of cheese or rock or rubber - but that says nothing about whether I, personally  should or should not lie about where I parked the car.
General Religious Discussion / Re: Should We Fear God
« Last post by Anfauglir on Today at 11:27:47 AM »
Unconditionally is the only moral way for a creator to love us.

And I respectfully disagree.  Substitute "child" in the below with "creation"....

How much notice would your child take of your assertions of love when you love the child-killer equally?  What does that say to your son or daughter about their value?

"Act any way you like, it makes no difference to me".  It renders any act of kindness from them to you meaningless, as you will feel the same way about them before the surprise trip to Paris as you will after.  Slap you, take you to dinner, smash your favourite vase, bring you all means nothing, as none of it has any effect.

Unconditional love, to me, is the bleakest and most soul-destroying thing there could possibly be, as it removes all distinction and all cause and reason from the word.

Unconditional love from a god makes all actions of the creation meaningless.  It places the most evil and despicable person on the same level as the kindest and most generous.  It would make that being aloof and unapproachable.  Why try to please something when nothing you do will change its opinion?  What a way to render your creation valueless.

I would question whether "treating all the same, regardless of circumstance" is in any way moral.  It removes and question of justice, of consequence.  I would go further and say that it removes any vestige of civilisation, or community.  Chuck your rubbish on the communal lawn, or bake everyone cookies?  No matter - both are treated the same.  Strive for the betterment of your kind, or watch TV all day?  No matter - rewards are the same.
yes I would, I have done so on many occasions, altho I would not call myself a habitual lier.


Eh, you said truth is the most important thing. When you tell a lie, for whatever reason, you are sacrificing truth for some other objective. How is this coherent.

If truth is the highest value, the ONLY value, then there should never be any justifiable reason to tell a lie, EVER.

It doesn't matter what reasons a person has. It doesn't matter what's at stake. If any person in any situation lies, they are violating the highest value, the only value. A lie is never justified.

Next question: Do you think people should be put to death for the sake of truth?

Bluecolour, all your beliefs are a lie. Do I think you should be put to desth for believing a lie? No, but there are religions which think you should be put to death for believing a lie.
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