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He(god)wrote the beginning and the end,and now he is watching,who's line is it anyway,the centuries long improve that is the middle act.

 I don't know which one of you(skeptic,lukevance) is better at pulling garbage out of your backsides. It seems as you both are making it up as you go the very least it's free entertainment.
Right. Knowing what would happen with a scenario you yourself created and set in motion does mean you are responsible for the outcome. The illusion of free will might be there, but every move has already been determined beforehand. An omniscient, omnipotent god should have the ability to "preview" various scenarios, eliminate some of the problems (such as keeping the serpent out of the garden or allowing for mistakes with minor punishment as a learning experience) and not set the whole thing in motion until the potential kinks, all of which he would be able to clearly see in advance, had been ironed out.
I got's to say I like the tiny Jesus Idea. 
Don't a lot of Christians believe that any "good" done by us inherent sinners is still as "dirty rags" in the eyes of god without redemption? In that case, can anything good that someone does purely through free will really be counted? I may be misunderstanding the doctrine, but I'm pretty sure I've been told something like that in the past.
Imagine if they all sang Personal Jesus by Depeche Mode... but in high chipmunk voices?   How cool would that be?
Looking at the history of conquest of israel, if you read the stories fairly, you will see a strange pattern akin to the milk jug.

Jews were good and they won battles against all odds.

Jews were bad and they lost battles and were punished.

If one were religious and lived in the time of the conquest of israel an asked to record events how do you think it would look if there were no god in reality.

1) OK jews won a battle, scribes say we won throught the power of god and because we were just.
2) Ok jews Lose a battle, scribes say wow we lost (how can this be if god is on our side) we must have done something wrong,  remember when so and so cheated on his wife.

Christian theists Look at it from the perspective of false religions and how they recorded their victories and losses. 

Look at America today,  There are those religous folks who "today" ascribe economic downturn to our lack of godliness, citing church attendance, or gay marriage, or what ever.  They cite how when we were more religious we did better economically??? I see letting fags get married is horrible and slavery is cool with god.

Can you see how bronze age people could incorporate history and attributed god will after a battle was won or lost?


So letting a fag get married is worse than, killing 50,000,000 indians, we were more godly when we enslaved millions of black people.  We were more godly when we had the jim crow laws?  You may not ascribe to the belief that god is giving the economy a boost when we are good.  But given a religious environment where a few religious leaders tell you what happened in the post game review can you see how god's will can be determined after the fact.   

General Religious Discussion / Re: Objective Good - Qualities?
« Last post by YRM_DM on Today at 08:42:41 AM »
The only way to get around this stuff is to say that "God owns everything and he scares me so I have to say that everything he does is good."

So if you saw god take human form and start wading through a pre-school with katanas, you'd have to say it was good because God did it, and those pre-school kids were wicked.

You'd have to imagine or speculate that those kids were going to grow up to do something evil and god knew it because he let them be born and had a plan for them.

You'd HAVE to defend god, no matter what he did.  You can't think for yourself.   It's sadly easy to paint any solid believer into a corner when they defend god.  It's a shame too because many of these believers are otherwise good people.  It's really NOT that they are ***holes.   JST and Skeptic and Luk are probably pretty good guys in certain situations and they probably do a lot of good things for people in real life.   I don't discount that at all.

There is nothing so evil that god can't do it and have it be called good by his believers.  Nothing. 
God did not write the script. it is more like improv but God knows what they will say. Prior knowledge of a specific something does not equate to causing that specific something.

Knowing what will happen, on its own, does not equate to causing what will happen.  That is true.  However, being able to know what will happen - even in principle - means that "what will happen" is fixed.  It is pre-determined.  Otherwise, it could not be known for certain, not even by a god.  If the future is there to know, then nothing is free to depart from that future.

The script is written by someone or something, if the future is able to be known for certain.  Whether that someone or something is a god or not, free will is still impossible in that scenario.
Teeny -tiny personal Jesuses.

Basically, every person has their own personal Jesus that stands about a foot high, that can ride around on their shoulder.  Through the magic of divinity, each of these minigods IS Jesus, physically manifesting the "god is everywhere" deal.

These tiny Jesuses will answer whatever theological questions you ask them, clearly and immediately.  So they will answer "is it right to do this?", but not "which lottery numbers shoud I pick?".  They will answer questions whether you are alone, or in a group, so the answers from one Jesus can be heard by others, and confirmed by their own Jesuses.

This would in effect be nothing different to the current situation that believers are in today.  Jesus is everywhere; they have a personal relationship with him; he answers their questions about what is right and wrong.  All that happens with no violation of free will.  All my scenario adds is visibility to others, and an element of confirmation.

Oooh, can we keep them in bottles, like genies?

YRM - And if you personally have God's ear, and can request prayers that he doesn't ignore... let me know because I know a few deserving children who could really use a miracle, and will never get one.   I'd literally convert tomorrow if a miracle happened for one of these children.

JST - That would depend on the request.

My step daughter is severely brain damaged and lives in a home with other severely retarded children.   If it's "selfish" for me to ask for that little girl to be able to talk and run and hug her mom, who loves her dearly, then pray for one of the other kids in the home to be fully healed.  That way I get no joy or satisfaction out of it for myself and my own loved ones.  It'd be all for someone else's family that I don't know.

If I see just one of those kids be cured of their condition, I'll fly out to where ever you are and sit next to you in church.

How about that?
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