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Main Discussion Zone => General Religious Discussion => Topic started by: Hermes on August 15, 2008, 05:27:17 PM

Title: What is your religious position?
Post by: Hermes on August 15, 2008, 05:27:17 PM
This is the third time this poll has been run.  For reference, here are the other ones;

Old WWGHA forum (older version of this poll; comments retained)
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?topic=10315.0 (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?topic=10315.0)

AtheistThinkTank (similar version to the one posted here)  99 votes!
http://www.atheistthinktank.net/thinktank/index.php?topic=1618.0 (http://www.atheistthinktank.net/thinktank/index.php?topic=1618.0)

This poll covers the number of deities (if any) you personally think exist and how strongly you consider that number is valid.  It does not cover how you act, believe, or think toward yourself, others, or the world in general.

Examples;

1. Gnostics and agnostics

For the purpose of this poll, gnostics claim knowledge and agnostics say knowledge is not possible.  Note that this form of gnosticism is different from the gnostic mystery religions!

Someone who knows for a fact that a god came here in a UFO and is the only god, and someone who knows for a fact that the God of Abraham is the one true and only god would both answer Gnostic Monotheist.  Next year, if both became uncertain -- did not know for a fact -- they would both become Agnostic Monotheists.  In each case, they would not likely share much else.

2. Agnostic theists

Someone who does not claim knowledge in a deity is possible would be an agnostic.  The same person may also be an atheist, or any of the theists (monotheists or deists or ...).  Religious beliefs are not the same as claims to definitive knowledge of the correctness of those beliefs.


Henotheism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheistic

Kama Sutra
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2995/Kama-Sutra-photo-book (http://www.scribd.com/doc/2995/Kama-Sutra-photo-book)



Edit: Poll edited to use proper capitalization; "Gnostic Monotheist" ==> "gnostic monotheist".
Edit: Removed "(Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)" from tail end of title.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on August 15, 2008, 05:29:01 PM
Not ideal ... but it's up here again!

Let the voting begin!
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on August 15, 2008, 05:32:23 PM
Question: Are Abrahamic religions Hentotheist religions (not monotheist)?

Reason why they are; The OT talks about other gods and does not disallow them from being possible ... just not to be worshipped.  As such, the followers of the Abrahamic religions should acknowledge that other gods exist (if theirs does) and then state that they worship one even though that is the case.  (One or a pantheon of co-mingled gods depending on sect.)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on August 15, 2008, 09:43:23 PM
FWIW: I'm JustMe from the old board and from ATT.  I dragged my feet getting an account on the new system, and someone else picked JustMe here.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Vynn on August 15, 2008, 10:08:34 PM
FWIW: I'm JustMe from the old board and from ATT.  I dragged my feet getting an account on the new system, and someone else picked JustMe here.

Hermes is more unique. More unique is better.  8)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xphobe on August 15, 2008, 10:10:03 PM
I hate to pick nits, but as I have said in other threads, I'm a bit anal about one point: agnosticism is not "I do not know", but rather "It is impossible to know".  I am an agnostic atheist: It is impossible to know for certain whether a god exists, but I don't believe there is one.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Vynn on August 15, 2008, 10:11:21 PM
I hate to pick nits, but as I have said in other threads, I'm a bit anal about one point: agnosticism is not "I do not know", but rather "It is impossible to know".  I am an agnostic atheist: It is impossible to know for certain whether a god exists, but I don't believe there is one.


Fucking ditto!!


Which makes it impossible to be a gnostic atheist!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xphobe on August 15, 2008, 10:21:30 PM
heh... it appears one person so far would argue that point : )
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on August 15, 2008, 10:24:14 PM
I hate to pick nits, but as I have said in other threads, I'm a bit anal about one point: agnosticism is not "I do not know", but rather "It is impossible to know".  I am an agnostic atheist: It is impossible to know for certain whether a god exists, but I don't believe there is one.

Agreed.  I knew it when I wrote it.  Huxley's definition is correct (he coined the word).

So, knowing what I know, why did I use the wrong definition?

I'm trying to keep the number of options down.  The list is over 20 items long now, plus a few throw-aways.  There are (???) agnostics that are less absolute on the possibility of knowing.   If I were to use the word "impossible", I'd be cutting out those that are less interested in if it is possible or not.

Adding in another flavor would expand the list by 5 options...something I almost did this time to accommodate all versions of Henotheism (though I gave them the shaft and only have one option for Hentotheists).
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on August 15, 2008, 10:26:15 PM
Note: If anyone can tell me how to edit these polls, I'd be glad to accommodate the Huxley-defined agnostics and add 5 more options.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on August 15, 2008, 10:27:41 PM
(The definition for Deists isn't exactly right either.  I chose the definition for that for similar reasons.)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xphobe on August 16, 2008, 12:07:24 AM
Note: If anyone can tell me how to edit these polls, I'd be glad to accommodate the Huxley-defined agnostics and add 5 more options.

Actually we had the ability to edit polls until yesterday, but thanks to the deceitful tactics of Muslim pig-jizz Shakaib, that option has been taken away from us.

Thanks Shakaib, for f*cking it up for us honest atheists.  Way to be a witness for Allah.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on August 16, 2008, 05:05:44 AM
Shakaib?  A new one or one of the old guard with a new name?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on August 16, 2008, 05:17:05 AM
FWIW: I'm JustMe from the old board and from ATT.  I dragged my feet getting an account on the new system, and someone else picked JustMe here.

Hermes is more unique. More unique is better.  8)

The mythology on Hermes is interesting.  I have a series of books from Joseph Campbell and there are a few mentions of him.   From Homer;

Quote
"For then she bare a son, of many shifts, blandly cunning, a robber, a cattle driver, a bringer of dreams,  [15] a watcher by night, a thief at the gates, one who was soon to show forth wonderful deeds among the deathless gods. Born with the dawning, at mid-day he played on the lyre, and in the evening he stole the cattle of far-shooting Apollo on the fourth day of the month; for on that day queenly Maia bare him."

To Hermes
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0138%3Ahymn%3D4 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0138%3Ahymn%3D4)

The part that follows about getting a tortoise to sing is bizarre.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xphobe on August 16, 2008, 08:43:20 AM
Shakaib?  A new one or one of the old guard with a new name?

New one.  Unfortunately he makes Afadly look like a Rhodes Scholar...  ???
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on August 16, 2008, 09:53:46 AM
Shakaib?  A new one or one of the old guard with a new name?

New one.  Unfortunately he makes Afadly look like a Rhodes Scholar...  ???

That's a shame.  Afadly has some intelligence, and it's applied to shoring up his dogma.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: ChrisPeaTu on August 18, 2008, 06:45:23 AM
I am gnostic towards most but agnostic towards at least one.
One can hold different views with regard to different definitions of god.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on August 18, 2008, 07:44:04 AM
I am gnostic towards most but agnostic towards at least one.
One can hold different views with regard to different definitions of god.

Agreed.   I chose my answers based on an absolute sense; agnostic atheist and ignostic atheist.  I'm willing to have some of the more absurd deities explained to me in such a way that they aren't bat _hit crazy.

Yet, if one definition of a deity is shown to make sense on some level that does not all the sudden drag on the BS versions of the same deity for free. 

For example;

Theist: "Do you believe in love?"

Me: "Believe?  No.  Love is real.  It can be detected in an MRI."

Theist: "God is love!  When you feel love, that's God!"

Me: "And nothing else?"

Theist: "Nope.  Just love.  Nothing else."

Me: "Good, then by definition I think that that specific god exists."

Theist: "Fantastic!  You're now a Born Again Christian!  Here's a Bible!  Praise Jesus!  A miracle will occur in your life and you won't go to Hell!"

Me: "Er ... no.  You've just swapped words around and made them meaningless."

Theist: "You do believe in love, don't you?"

Me: [facepalm]
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on August 27, 2008, 06:45:38 AM
*BUMP*
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on September 24, 2008, 01:02:59 PM
(http://scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts/atheist_chart.gif)
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Atheist_vs._Agnostic (http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Atheist_vs._Agnostic)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: ;) on September 24, 2008, 01:14:43 PM
Quote
I am an agnostic atheist: It is impossible to know for certain whether a god exists, but I don't believe there is one.

Definitely gotta go with that one!
Although i couldn't resist throwing a missionary in there ::)

And that Karma Sutra book is ... interesting to say the least ;)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Goodkat on September 24, 2008, 01:17:05 PM
(http://i33.tinypic.com/dg11mu.jpg)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on October 02, 2008, 05:20:20 PM
*bump!*
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Sota on October 02, 2008, 06:05:29 PM
I figured this would be a popular thread...  But I'm agnostic atheist I guess.  It makes the most sense, and leaves a little room if someone happens to prove anything.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on October 02, 2008, 06:25:44 PM
I figured this would be a popular thread... 

I've run this poll a few times.  The previous ones were more popular.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Sota on October 02, 2008, 06:27:13 PM
I figured this would be a popular thread... 

I've run this poll a few times.  The previous ones were more popular.

I see.  Still, it's a bit surprising that one of the biggest questions you could ask on this site has only been answered by a few...
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on October 02, 2008, 07:22:28 PM
Unfortunately, the forums here were reset a while ago...and the votes in that poll were wiped.  From memory, I think it was up to about 120~140.  Not valid as research, but for these forums not bad either.

For reference, here are the other ones;

Old WWGHA forum (older version of this poll; comments retained)
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?topic=10315.0 (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?topic=10315.0)

AtheistThinkTank (similar version to the one posted here)  91 votes!
http://www.atheistthinktank.net/thinktank/index.php?topic=1618.0 (http://www.atheistthinktank.net/thinktank/index.php?topic=1618.0)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: spider on October 02, 2008, 07:46:00 PM
Soooo.... who voted for gnostic atheism?   Are they rounding up on the Dawkins scale?   Or do they seriously know there is no god and by what means?

I'd like to know, because I do get into gnostic atheist moods and if there's a justification for that, I should cultivate it.

I selected agnostic atheist.  I'm so boring. 
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on October 02, 2008, 08:09:07 PM
I understand the gnostic atheist vote(s).  Why mince words?

That said, I'm a gnostic atheist IRT specific deity claims; ex: omnimax deities.  Otherwise, I'm an agnostic atheist; 'show me or blow if you don't have facts'.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on October 12, 2008, 04:08:39 PM
*bump whoring*
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: cmotdibbler on October 12, 2008, 05:55:01 PM
I gotta go with agnostic atheist with this explanation.
I do not think there is a way of distinguishing a "god" from another powerful natural occurring "entity" (aliens, humans from the future, alternative dimensions weird stuff like that). However, if it were shown that a supernatural "god" exists then I would *not* bend my knee and worship even though I would acknowledge his/her/it existence.

I was intrigued by the "ignostic atheist" position (not caring if a god exists, but doesn't believe so) and wonder if "ignostic" refers to refusing to worship if proven wrong?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on October 12, 2008, 09:32:01 PM
I was intrigued by the "ignostic atheist" position (not caring if a god exists, but doesn't believe so) and wonder if "ignostic" refers to refusing to worship if proven wrong?

II hadn't thought of that before.  I guess it could, but I don't see it as a necessity.

I would think that one of the ignostic theists would be more likely to actively refuse worshiping a deity, but like the ignostic atheist it's not necessary.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: cmotdibbler on October 13, 2008, 06:09:15 AM
I was intrigued by the "ignostic atheist" position (not caring if a god exists, but doesn't believe so) and wonder if "ignostic" refers to refusing to worship if proven wrong?

II hadn't thought of that before.  I guess it could, but I don't see it as a necessity.

I would think that one of the ignostic theists would be more likely to actively refuse worshiping a deity, but like the ignostic atheist it's not necessary.

Arrgggh... looking back at the poll, I confused Ignostic with Apnostic! I suppose they are a bit similar, but never heard of these terms before.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on October 13, 2008, 07:25:30 AM
Ignostic and Apnostic are new terms ... though ignostic is popular enough to merit a Wikipedia entry and 18K hits on Google.  Apnostic, by contrast, shows up only a couple dozen times in Google and the top entries are threads on WWGHA.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Sleeping Shadow on October 13, 2008, 12:46:12 PM
I chose Gnostic/Agnostic Monotheist.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Azdgari on October 13, 2008, 12:49:33 PM
A formal contradiction.  Interesting.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on October 13, 2008, 02:48:05 PM
I chose Gnostic/Agnostic Monotheist.
A formal contradiction.  Interesting.

Hmmm...I was going to disagree, but the disagreement came from some kind of polytheist argument.  Ronoshie chose monotheist (ie: 1 deity). 

Knowing for a fact of the existence of one or more deities, yet not knowing for a fact the existence of one or more other deities is possible with polytheism.

Then again, trinitarian Christians have a 3-in-1 deity and they consider themselves monotheists.  Maybe YHWY and JC are given the nod for the Gnostic claim, and the HG is given the nod for the agnostic claim?  That or a variation of it is one of the only ways I can make sense of it!  The only other one that comes to mind is that the person is on the edge of flipping from one stance to another and has not fully committed to the 'new' stance.

Care to clarify Ronoshie?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on October 13, 2008, 02:52:57 PM
Wait!  I take it back...there's a simpler possibility that is not a contradiction.

The Gnostic Monotheist part could be in respect to a single deity.

The Agnostic Monotheist part could be that the person is agnostic IRT other deities, and as such remains a monotheist based on the the claimed knowledge of the single deity that they are a Gnostic Monotheist about.

Anyone want to chime in?



[Note: This still leaves open the possibility that the deity claimed to be known as existing does not, and that other deities (1 to n) do exist but are just not known.]
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Sleeping Shadow on October 14, 2008, 11:04:03 AM
1) I know for sure that supernatural forces exist and is probably eternal.

2) I'm pretty convinced that the original supernatural force is the God of the Bible, if the supernatural forces are living.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: spider on October 16, 2008, 08:58:23 PM
But would you say your theism is certain or just "I think probably" or "I can't know for sure, but my belief is..."   ?

Do you think God is a fact that both has the ability to be known and is known by you?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on October 20, 2008, 06:46:51 PM
Introducing the...

BumpMaster 4000!
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xphobe on October 20, 2008, 10:22:18 PM
Introducing the...

BumpMaster 4000!

Why does that sound like something Richard Simmons would shill on late-night TV?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Sleeping Shadow on October 21, 2008, 01:03:46 AM
But would you say your theism is certain or just "I think probably" or "I can't know for sure, but my belief is..."   ?

Out of those two, more towards "I think probably". Even if the Bible isn't the written Word of the Eternal, atleast it has some wise sayings. And to me, it pretty much seems to have a good idea of general morality (like the last 6 Commandments). The main number one reason I believe in the Bible, to me, is next to undeniable.



Quote
Do you think God is a fact that both has the ability to be known and is known by you?

I suppose.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Goodkat on October 21, 2008, 01:21:40 AM
The main number one reason I believe in the Bible, to me, is next to undeniable.
What reason is that ?!
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Sleeping Shadow on October 21, 2008, 10:49:56 PM
The main number one reason I believe in the Bible, to me, is next to undeniable.
What reason is that ?!

Prophecy. The Bible has predicted things to come centuries before they happened. The latter end of those prophecies are in the beginning stages of being fulfilled today of those that hasn't already been fulfilled. And the incredible accuracy of them is next to impossible of being coicidence.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Goodkat on October 21, 2008, 10:56:40 PM
The main number one reason I believe in the Bible, to me, is next to undeniable.
What reason is that ?!
Prophecy. The Bible has predicted things to come centuries before they happened. The latter end of those prophecies are in the beginning stages of being fulfilled today of those that hasn't already been fulfilled. And the incredible accuracy of them is next to impossible of being coicidence.
Daniel has been determined to have been written after its prophesies. Jerusalem was re established by Christians who purposely fulfilled that prophesy. Any other fulfilled prophesies?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Sleeping Shadow on October 21, 2008, 11:00:15 PM
The main number one reason I believe in the Bible, to me, is next to undeniable.
What reason is that ?!
Prophecy. The Bible has predicted things to come centuries before they happened. The latter end of those prophecies are in the beginning stages of being fulfilled today of those that hasn't already been fulfilled. And the incredible accuracy of them is next to impossible of being coicidence.
Daniel has been determined to have been written after its prophesies. Jerusalem was re established by Christians who purposely fulfilled that prophesy. Any other fulfilled prophesies?

Got any proof it was written afterwards?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Goodkat on October 21, 2008, 11:06:56 PM
The main number one reason I believe in the Bible, to me, is next to undeniable.
What reason is that ?!
Prophecy. The Bible has predicted things to come centuries before they happened. The latter end of those prophecies are in the beginning stages of being fulfilled today of those that hasn't already been fulfilled. And the incredible accuracy of them is next to impossible of being coicidence.
Daniel has been determined to have been written after its prophesies. Jerusalem was re established by Christians who purposely fulfilled that prophesy. Any other fulfilled prophesies?

Got any proof it was written afterwards?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Daniel#Dating_and_content (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Daniel#Dating_and_content)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Sleeping Shadow on October 22, 2008, 06:50:33 PM
The main number one reason I believe in the Bible, to me, is next to undeniable.
What reason is that ?!
Prophecy. The Bible has predicted things to come centuries before they happened. The latter end of those prophecies are in the beginning stages of being fulfilled today of those that hasn't already been fulfilled. And the incredible accuracy of them is next to impossible of being coicidence.
Daniel has been determined to have been written after its prophesies. Jerusalem was re established by Christians who purposely fulfilled that prophesy. Any other fulfilled prophesies?

Got any proof it was written afterwards?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Daniel#Dating_and_content (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Daniel#Dating_and_content)

Most of that is pure speculation. There isn't any evidence that Daniel didn't live in the 6th Century BC. I would like to comment Daniel being placed in "the writings" division. The Old Testament canon, as organized by Ezra and the Great Assembly, did have three major divisions—the Law (Moses’s books), the Prophets and the Psalms, or writings. Jesus Christ confirmed this division (see Luke 24:44). Because Daniel is not included with the prophets in the divisions as we know them today, scholars reason that this means the book was written after Malachi. Yet this argument fails when you understand that books in "the writings" are from the far distant past. The book of Job is a perfect example.   

The truth is, Daniel should be included with the prophets. Here is why. Jesus Christ refers to Daniel as a prophet. He told the disciples, “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)” (Matthew 24:15). In this same verse, it is implied that we are expected to read Daniel as a prophetic book. In addition, Josephus, a historian in the first century AD, places Daniel with the prophets. Josephus discusses the tripartite division of the 22 Old Testament scrolls in Contra Apionem 1:8. He mentions five scrolls for Moses, 13 scrolls for the prophets and only four for the writings. Although Josephus doesn’t specifically list the books for each section, it is safe to assume that the divisions of the books were changed some time between the first century and now. It is most likely that the Masoretes (scholars who lived in Tiberius) moved Daniel (and several other prophetic books) to the third division (“the writings”) in the sixth century AD when they were standardizing the text. Let’s agree that the placement or misplacement of Daniel in the Old Testament canon has no bearing whatsoever on the dating of the book.

I think the prophecies in Daniel is one of the strongest proofs among others of the authority of the Bible. Daniel was deeply affected by what he saw. In communication with the angel Gabriel, he tells us, “And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?” (Daniel 12:8 ). Notice Gabriel’s reply: “Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand” (verses 9-10). Amazing, isn’t it? Daniel desperately wanted to know what he had witnessed. Yet, not even God gave him the understanding. These verses show that Daniel had no historical frame of reference to understand what he saw. These verses alone shoot holes in the critics’ “after the fact” theories. 

Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Azdgari on October 22, 2008, 07:16:44 PM
Quote
Most of that is pure speculation. There isn't any evidence that Daniel didn't live in the 6th Century BC. ...

I love how Ronoshie derides the Wiki article as pure speculation, then goes on to engage in pure speculation.  I wonder if he realized it as he was typing, or whether he was completely oblivious?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Sleeping Shadow on October 22, 2008, 07:18:54 PM
Quote
Most of that is pure speculation. There isn't any evidence that Daniel didn't live in the 6th Century BC. ...

I love how Ronoshie derides the Wiki article as pure speculation, then goes on to engage in pure speculation.  I wonder if he realized it as he was typing, or whether he was completely oblivious?


I didn't say there wasn't going to be any speculation in mine. But all the reasons people have against Daniel is speculation. The context of Daniel itself isn't speculation.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on October 28, 2008, 09:04:08 AM
Book porn;

(http://neatorama.cachefly.net/images/2006-09/kama-sutra-reading.jpg)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: spider on October 29, 2008, 08:57:09 PM
Hey, I looked into the Theism article on Wikipedia, and there are all these other theisms there.

I'm going to list them because they are interesting.

Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theism
# ditheism — that two gods exist and they are both equal (Wiccans believe in this with a God and Goddess, or Lord and Lady, who have equal control/power.
# panentheism — the universe is part of God
# dystheism or maltheism — that God or the gods are evil.
# Kathenotheism: there is more than one god, but only one at a time should be worshipped. Each is supreme in turn.
I've heard of panentheism and animism, but not the others - especially not kathenotheism.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on October 30, 2008, 04:46:54 PM
Hey, I looked into the Theism article on Wikipedia, and there are all these other theisms there.

I'm going to list them because they are interesting.

Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theism
# ditheism — that two gods exist and they are both equal (Wiccans believe in this with a God and Goddess, or Lord and Lady, who have equal control/power.
# panentheism — the universe is part of God
# dystheism or maltheism — that God or the gods are evil.
# Kathenotheism: there is more than one god, but only one at a time should be worshipped. Each is supreme in turn.
I've heard of panentheism and animism, but not the others - especially not kathenotheism.

New to me...notes follow;

Kathenotheism seems to be similar to henotheism.

Dystheism / maltheism adds another level to the matrix.  A gnostic monotheist could decide that the one deity is evil.

Panentheism - yep, I could add it, though it's a bit close to pantheism and that's not too popular (3 votes).
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on November 12, 2008, 01:55:40 PM
(http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh261/redthunder118/Bump/BUMP-1.jpg)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Seppuku on November 12, 2008, 07:40:03 PM
Agnostic atheist Buddhist. Admittedly, not the best Buddhist in practice.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on November 12, 2008, 07:59:32 PM
Hey, who would trust a cocky Buddhist?   ;D
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on November 16, 2008, 06:34:41 AM
(http://www.loyolapress.com/JesuitMinistry/BumpingIntoGod.gif)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Whitney on November 23, 2008, 12:42:59 AM
I chose agnostic/ignostic atheist by assuming that by "god" the poll means creator.  I know that nothing worth worshiping as a god exists.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on November 23, 2008, 01:08:06 AM
I chose agnostic/ignostic atheist by assuming that by "god" the poll means creator.  I know that nothing worth worshiping as a god exists.

The term 'god' or 'gods' refers to "deities (if any) you personally think exist" (from the OP).

To the point: The definition is entirely open ended.

If someone thinks that the deity they worship or believe in is a cat, and that's how they define it, they could say they are a gnostic monotheist.  If the cat has a litter of kittens, they could switch to calling themselves a gnostic polytheist.  (This is not an extreme example.   There are 'living gods' and gods that embody animals (or are said could).)

If someone thinks that only a specific category of entity exists but no others -- say a 'universal mind' or an omnimax deity -- that would also qualify.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Whitney on November 23, 2008, 08:55:13 PM
I know what the word god is intended to mean....but I also know a lot of people use it interchangeable with creator.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on November 23, 2008, 09:27:55 PM
Agreed.  They are myopic.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xphobe on November 23, 2008, 10:41:36 PM
Hm, maybe you should include "myopic" as one of the choices!   ;D
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on November 23, 2008, 10:44:22 PM
Hm, maybe you should include "myopic" as one of the choices!   ;D

Well, if someone wants they can pick Karma Sutra yet practice in private ...   :o
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xphobe on November 23, 2008, 10:49:54 PM
Well, if someone wants they can pick Karma Sutra yet practice in private ...   :o

Solo?  I guess that is said to cause myopia, isn't it?  Or something like that...
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Judas on November 26, 2008, 01:44:36 PM
i believe God & the Creator are twins  :D
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Buster Fixxitt on November 26, 2008, 10:17:07 PM
I would say Gnostic Atheist.  Which I do understand is a faith-based decision. I don't have concrete evidence for this, which is why I'm suggesting that it requires faith/belief.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on November 26, 2008, 10:20:55 PM
I'm a gnostic atheist in regards to specific deity claims, for some others, I'm an ignostic or an apnostic atheist. 

As a general rule, philosophically, I'm an agnostic atheist on the question of deities though not on a practical level in normal life.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Kitomi_Sensei on November 27, 2008, 07:21:23 AM
How would you refer to a person who

-requires proof to believe in God(s)/god(s),

- believes that at this time in human history there is no way to prove the existence of such "higher" powers, but would be willing to believe if such a means were produced, or if scientific proof were available and provided.   

-thinks that supposing there is one God or many Gods, deities or all-encompassing Gods is even more meaningless in absence of evidence, but that absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence. Yet at the same time feels that spirituality without dogma is healthy and useful, and that theological study by non-fanatics (believers and disbelievers and conditional believers alike) is an excellent thing to consider... or else why would I have spent so much time and effort on such ruminations?

I did a great deal of study on the evolution of brain structure and function and how belief systems evolved.  The basis of all of that can be called the cognitive imperative: That if a question can be asked, it will be asked.  I go a step farther to consider that in a time when scientific validation was impossible, and there was only undocumented experience to validate possible answers to questions like: Where did the first people come from?  What is the meaning of life?  What happens to me when I die? An answer that is comforting would arise, and an answer that is likely to reinforce early societal structure is the one that would be promoted by the folks in charge- evolutionarily, it makes sense to come up with an answer that leads to more reproduction and less killing. One generation is comforted by their belief and fruitful because they believe its the right thing to do (which, evolutionarily speaking, it is) and pass on those beliefs, as it is natural for a child to learn first from the beliefs of their parents and the first faith any human being experiences is faith in parental figures... and so on as they become more and more complex.

Based of fMRI and behavioral studies, I came to the conclusion that the peak experiences coincide with neurological structure and function to explain how the brain can create its own closed feed-back loop with the brain telling itself that logically it is experiencing God or Everything. The brain cannot conceptualize nothingness, and when in fact it is only attempting to define itself- a thing that the conscious brain is always attempting to do, it is at the same time closing itself off to sensory information that allows human beings to orient themselves in time and space. My ultimate conclusion was that most likely the idea that what is experienced is "God" or "Oneness" or connection with "everything" is an error, but that it is possible there is something being experienced that the fMRI's can't account for, that is not as readily perceivable when the stimulus is bombarding the brain with sensory information- which could possibly be "INSERT YOUR BELIEF HERE".

I also concluded that peak experience need not be derived from insanity, delusion, or religion- and it is generally a healthy experience.  There is a scientifically verifiable difference between schizophrenic experiences of a higher power, and Zen-master peak experience.  Some of the studies were conducted on Nuns with powerful visions of Jesus who exhibited identical brain function as non-secular meditative peak experience.  Sane minds under stress can activate peak experience as well, which is most likely why people who are undergoing trials may be able to access such states without meditative discipline.

I have had experiences that could be defined as spiritual, and they reinforce ideas about the supernatural that I personally find comforting, but I do not believe that they are God.  I do, however, consider these experiences a positive force in my life and see no reason to try and shut them down or stop them because I can't explain them rationally.  I simply do not file them under "God", nor do I base any sort of morality on them or attempt to convert or control others because of them.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xphobe on November 27, 2008, 11:08:05 AM
How would you refer to a person who

-requires proof to believe in God(s)/god(s),

- believes that at this time in human history there is no way to prove the existence of such "higher" powers, but would be willing to believe if such a means were produced, or if scientific proof were available and provided.   

-thinks that supposing there is one God or many Gods, deities or all-encompassing Gods is even more meaningless in absence of evidence, but that absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence. Yet at the same time feels that spirituality without dogma is healthy and useful, and that theological study by non-fanatics (believers and disbelievers and conditional believers alike) is an excellent thing to consider...

"Me"!

Well, now, having said that, I have to qualify it a bit.  I actually don't think proof of a supernatural being is possible, precisely because such a being would be supernatural, and scientific proof is limited to the natural world.  But I am willing to consider the possibility that if an omnipotent god wanted me to know about it, it could produce such knowledge in me - somehow bypassing the whole proof thing.

Also, I think study of religions is beneficial, in the cultural anthropology sense.  Religion is a very powerful force in our culture and we need to understand it as best we can.   Study of theological doctrine is an idle pastime, no different than reading science fiction.  If you enjoy that kind of thing, go for it, but debating the nuances of the concept of the Holy Trinity is as irrelevant to the real world as learning Klingon.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Pale Rider on November 27, 2008, 04:30:11 PM
Most likely Humanists but thats not etched in stone and was not on the list....Got this interesting book on FreeThinkers by Susan Jacoby from the local library its starting to open my eyes about somethings....
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: jointherebellion on December 03, 2008, 01:28:30 PM
Gnostic Atheist is missing  :'(
I'm sure there is no god-thingy-whatsoever-thing
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Deus ex Machina on December 03, 2008, 01:56:04 PM
I could swear that 'Gnostic Atheist' used to be the first poll option. Odd   :-\
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on December 03, 2008, 03:41:48 PM
I could swear that 'Gnostic Atheist' used to be the first poll option. Odd   :-\

Same here -- and I wrote the damn thing.  That's not good; either someone mucked with it or there is DB corruption.

For some reason editing the poll has been turned off or I'd fix it.  (It was possible to edit polls for a few weeks...so the change to locked polls is something new.)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: spider on December 03, 2008, 08:31:44 PM
Okay, gnostic atheist definitely was there before because I was wondering who voted for gnostic atheism. 
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on December 03, 2008, 09:03:18 PM
The top item looks to have the proper count for Gnostic Atheist, but the label and text are all wrong.

I followed a pattern when I made up the survey (as you can see) and the only logical spot for Gnostic Atheist is spot #1.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: rickymooston on December 03, 2008, 09:05:19 PM
Sexism!!!

I enjoy sex.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Operator_016 on December 03, 2008, 09:56:20 PM
The top item looks to have the proper count for Gnostic Atheist, but the label and text are all wrong.

I followed a pattern when I made up the survey (as you can see) and the only logical spot for Gnostic Atheist is spot #1.

Fixed the label... what's the text supposed to say?

full disclosure: I voted "I am a god" although moderators are not supposed to vote, because I wanted to see the poll result bar graph.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on December 03, 2008, 10:43:18 PM
The first entry looks right now.  Any ideas what happend?  (Hoping it was me, but I don't think I made any changes since the 20th of November when I actually copied the results into a post in a different thread;

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=2406.msg53461#msg53461


FWIW ... the last few poll entries are there for fun.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Operator_016 on December 03, 2008, 11:00:25 PM
Is it possible that you had the text for Apnostic Deist loaded into your clipboard buffer and then inadvertently pasted it into slot 1?

We may never know.  It could have been a glitch.  Something to keep an eye on though...
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: realdemocracy on December 17, 2008, 04:42:40 PM
  I actually don't think proof of a supernatural being is possible, precisely because such a being would be supernatural, and scientific proof is limited to the natural world.  But I am willing to consider the possibility that if an omnipotent god wanted me to know about it, it could produce such knowledge in me - somehow bypassing the whole proof thing.

I think perhaps you are confusing supernatural with unnatural or extranatural.  If there were such a being, and especially if it was omnipotent, then it would certainly be able to have some presence and effect in the natural world.  Thus, it would not be impossible to prove its existence.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Deus ex Machina on December 17, 2008, 06:14:21 PM
I think perhaps you are confusing supernatural with unnatural or extranatural.  If there were such a being, and especially if it was omnipotent, then it would certainly be able to have some presence and effect in the natural world.  Thus, it would not be impossible to prove its existence.

Welcome the the forum, realdemocracy!

It's an interesting idea you have there, but could you expand on it? I'm rather confused about how you'd be able to prove the existence of a supernatural entity, absent any reliable criteria by which to do so. Could you elaborate? Also, could you expand on what you consider the difference between 'supernatural' and 'unnatural' or 'extranatural' (extramundane?) to be?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: realdemocracy on December 17, 2008, 07:23:51 PM
I think perhaps you are confusing supernatural with unnatural or extranatural.  If there were such a being, and especially if it was omnipotent, then it would certainly be able to have some presence and effect in the natural world.  Thus, it would not be impossible to prove its existence.

Welcome the the forum, realdemocracy!

It's an interesting idea you have there, but could you expand on it? I'm rather confused about how you'd be able to prove the existence of a supernatural entity, absent any reliable criteria by which to do so. Could you elaborate? Also, could you expand on what you consider the difference between 'supernatural' and 'unnatural' or 'extranatural' (extramundane?) to be?

Let's start with the definitions:

supernatural = more than natural, having the ability to manifest itself within the natural, despite also existing in some sense "beyond" the natural

or from Merriam Webster's second definition: 2 a: departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature b: attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit)

unnatural: I withdraw my use of this term, as it is inconsistent with the common connotation.  This word generally refers to things that are not mutually exclusive to what we might call "natural" in the context we are using here, but rather to things that are "synthetic," which is not at all what I meant.  I apologize for not thinking through my syntax before posting.

extranatural = not natural, mutually exclusive from what is natural, that which is either imaginary, or at least, yet to be proven to be either natural or supernatural.

A supernatural being, such as a deity or a ghost, if indeed such an entity should exist, would be able to affect the material world, even while in some sense, existing "beyond" it.  These effects made upon the material world would be measurable.

An extranatural entity would exist entirely outside of the natural, and could not affect it or be affected by it.  I'm not sure what we would place in this category.  Perhaps this category is undifferentiated from the category we would call "imaginary."  A logical assumption might be to work from the position that all things that we cannot classify as "natural" be considered extranatural unless/until they can be proven to exist, in which case they might be defined as supernatural.

That is, one indeed could not "prove the existence of a supernatural entity, absent any reliable criteria by which to do so" but would need to do so based on measurable data.  Until that can be done, there is no evidence that such a thing is indeed supernatural, but is merely imaginary.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Deus ex Machina on December 17, 2008, 07:30:44 PM
The problem, as I see it, is that it wouldn't be enough merely for its effects to be measurable: they'd also have to be, according to some reliable criteria, actually attributable to that entity, as opposed to some entirely natural phenomena whose effects were precisely the same. Occam's Razor is never going to be on the side of the 'supernatural' on that one, I fear. It wouldn't be enough to say "postulated supernatural entity X has outward natural effect A; we observe natural phenomenon A; therefore X exists" (the "my cat is a dog" argument, effectively), when phenomenon A could - more parsimoniously - be put down to natural processes.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: realdemocracy on December 18, 2008, 04:08:20 PM
Yes, you are right.  I'm sorry I didn't think to include that criterion.  Nevertheless, the fact remains that a supernatural being, if there were such a thing, could affect things in the natural world, and thereby prove its existence. 

The fact that none has done so would seem to be strong evidence that no such being exists, or that even if they do, their existence is irrelevant to our own.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xphobe on December 18, 2008, 04:38:47 PM
I still contend that proof of a supernatural being is not possible, even if it can interact with the natural world (which God is claimed to do).  What possible evidence would be incontrovertibly proof of a supernatural being, and not simply a very advanced natural being?

You watch sci fi, right?  This concept is so familiar to the genre as to be almost cliche.

Having said that, I can think of one way it might be possible.  If a candidate god announced that he was going to change the value of some well-established fundamental constant, such as pi, to a different value, and then did it... that would be way cool.

Of course, it might be easier to simply induce hallucinations in everyone to make them think the constant had changed...
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: realdemocracy on December 18, 2008, 05:38:06 PM
I still contend that proof of a supernatural being is not possible, even if it can interact with the natural world (which God is claimed to do).  What possible evidence would be incontrovertibly proof of a supernatural being, and not simply a very advanced natural being?

You watch sci fi, right?  This concept is so familiar to the genre as to be almost cliche.

Having said that, I can think of one way it might be possible.  If a candidate god announced that he was going to change the value of some well-established fundamental constant, such as pi, to a different value, and then did it... that would be way cool.

Of course, it might be easier to simply induce hallucinations in everyone to make them think the constant had changed...
I don't watch much sci-fi, but your point is well-taken.  I have seem ST-TNG episodes featuring Q, and as far as I can tell, such a character would be indistinguishable from a supernatural being, at least from a human perspective.  So, then, what would in fact distinguish such a very advanced or very powerful natural being from a supernatural one?  I don't even think your pi example could provide that distinction.  Ostensibly, if it were possible to change pi within the scope of teh natural universe, then a Q-like character might be just as capable as a supernatural deity of accomplishing that.  I think such a supernatural being would have to not only provide incontrovertible proof of its existence and its ability to function meaningfully in the natural world, but would also need to verify that it had access to something that could be defined as "beyond" the natural.

How would it do this?  At least for the moment, I cannot devise such a test, but that does not actually make it impossible.  Certainly, if there were a being who was not only supernatural, but omnipotent, it would be able to find a way to prove its existence beyond any doubt.  How can I make such an assertion? Simply by the definition of omnipotence.  To an omnipotent being, nothing is impossible.

Of course, for a non-omnipotent supernatural being, it may in fact be impossible to prove both that it exists and that it is supernatural.  However, I'm not inclined to give them such an easy out.  Certainly, someone here can devise a test that a supernatural being could meet to prove both...and then, we can use the fact that no such proof has been offered to show that no relevant supernatural being exists, even while we may not ever be able to prove that no supernatural beings exist.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xphobe on December 18, 2008, 09:35:47 PM
I pretty much agree with everything you said, especially

Certainly, if there were a being who was not only supernatural, but omnipotent, it would be able to find a way to prove its existence beyond any doubt.  How can I make such an assertion? Simply by the definition of omnipotence.  To an omnipotent being, nothing is impossible.


which is why I said this
Quote
I am willing to consider the possibility that if an omnipotent god wanted me to know about it, it could produce such knowledge in me - somehow bypassing the whole proof thing.

Maybe a subset of the theists who claim to know actually do know.  Maybe the world is divided between those who know and those who don't.  Not that it makes any difference functionally...
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: realdemocracy on December 18, 2008, 11:56:50 PM
Maybe a subset of the theists who claim to know actually do know.  Maybe the world is divided between those who know and those who don't.  Not that it makes any difference functionally...
This goes back to GII proof 17 (Leprechauns). If "God" is hiding its existence from most of us, ostensibly to protect our free will (to be able to exhibit our faith, and thereby win salvation from the "sin" we did not commit, but for which we are nevertheless doomed to suffer, if we fail to drop to our proverbial knees...), but reveals itself beyond any doubt to some others (e.g. Paul), then apparently their free will has been compromised.  Granted, if there was any chance that the Biblical God actually existed, then this contradiction would fit right in there with all the others.  This particular contradiction does not rise to the level of "proof," but it contributes to the overall body of evidence.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Buster Fixxitt on December 19, 2008, 02:40:15 AM
I don't even think your pi example could provide that distinction.  Ostensibly, if it were possible to change pi within the scope of the natural universe, then a Q-like character might be just as capable as a supernatural deity of accomplishing that.

I think I've thought this through enough to understand RD's point, that Q is a creation of the natural universe and therefor subject to its laws, therefor if Q can do it, it's not an act that is necessarily 'outside' of natural law.  Did I get that right?

I just want to mention one of my favourite Q moments. Q is banished from the Q continuum and made human. The enterprise has to try to stop a moon from crashing into its planet. Q's solution is simple. "Just change the gravitational constant of the universe and it'll stop crashing."  Geordi:"That's a great idea, now how do we do that?"  "What do you mean 'how', you just do it!"

And we see the difference between omnipotent and omniscient. Or rather Near-omnipotence and Near-omniscience.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xTigerx on December 19, 2008, 11:32:32 AM
This poll is missing one position.

I don't there there are gods.

But I don't think there are no gods either.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on December 19, 2008, 11:54:02 AM
Impossible.  There's a spot for a mouse on that list, surely you can pick one.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: realdemocracy on December 19, 2008, 03:10:04 PM
I think I've thought this through enough to understand RD's point, that Q is a creation of the natural universe and therefor subject to its laws, therefor if Q can do it, it's not an act that is necessarily 'outside' of natural law.  Did I get that right?

I just want to mention one of my favourite Q moments. Q is banished from the Q continuum and made human. The enterprise has to try to stop a moon from crashing into its planet. Q's solution is simple. "Just change the gravitational constant of the universe and it'll stop crashing."  Geordi:"That's a great idea, now how do we do that?"  "What do you mean 'how', you just do it!"

And we see the difference between omnipotent and omniscient. Or rather Near-omnipotence and Near-omniscience.
Isn't Q supposed to be fully omnipotent?  I either didn't see enough or pay close enough attention to know.  Perhaps that is just an assumption I made, or something a friend told me (who watched it much more than I did). But anyway, yes, that is a nice example of the difference.

As for the point about proving the difference between a supernatural being and an ultra-powerful, or even omnipotent, yet "natural" one, I'm not sure.  We are getting into some pretty shaky theoretical area here.  If Q is omnipotent (but not omniscient, of course), could we say he is supernatural, since obviously an omnipotent being can affect anything, which would then include realms beyond the natural, if there are in fact such realms...wouldn't it?  Of course, whether or not he could prove to us that he met that criterion is a separate issue...or rather, takes us back to the previous one.

I'm getting kinda lost here.  Discussing imaginary beings is not as much fun as it was when I was a teenager.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Buster Fixxitt on December 19, 2008, 03:47:30 PM
I'm getting kinda lost here.  Discussing imaginary beings is not as much fun as it was when I was a teenager.

Yeah, I'm a little fuzzy on the Q.  They claim omnipotence, yet the one we meet (they are all named Q) seems to get bested fairly often.  Mind you, he always seems to set his own rules which he then plays within...




I don't know if this is an option that should be added to the poll or not, but I'll throw it out there anyways.

My cousin is D.I.D.  Dissociative Identity Disorder which they used to call Multiple Personality Disorder.  She is devoutly Christian (well some of her 'alters' are, others are agnostic, no atheists though).  The one thing that she will state as an absolute fact is that God is a 'Multi'.  She sees no discrepancy between Jesus, God, Holy Spirit because God only makes sense to her as a multi. 

Just thought I'd share that with y'all.  If you're familiar with any multis, then it'll likely make more sense.  She's one of the rare ones in that MOST of the alters are co-conscious and work within 'the system'.  Most multis are not aware of their 'alters'.

Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on December 19, 2008, 04:02:05 PM
Self projection as god rides again!   ;D
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xphobe on December 19, 2008, 05:03:39 PM
This would be our first example of "Selves Projection as God" :)

Oho!  Where do multis fit in your matrix, Hermes?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Buster Fixxitt on December 19, 2008, 05:17:39 PM
This would be our first example of "Selves Projection as God" :)

Oho!  Where do multis fit in your matrix, Hermes?

 :D Nice!

By the way, is there a thread somewhere that lists the argot?  Somewhere I can look up what SPAG means if I'm not familiar with the term?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xTigerx on December 19, 2008, 05:30:09 PM
Impossible.  There's a spot for a mouse on that list, surely you can pick one.

-.-

Ok I'll choose both agnostic atheist and agnostic deist... that should cancel them out. :P
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on December 19, 2008, 05:59:06 PM
Fine with me...
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xphobe on December 19, 2008, 11:08:45 PM
This would be our first example of "Selves Projection as God" :)

Oho!  Where do multis fit in your matrix, Hermes?

 :D Nice!

By the way, is there a thread somewhere that lists the argot?  Somewhere I can look up what SPAG means if I'm not familiar with the term?

It's a phrase DTE coined, on the old forum.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=9f10c1246b3990f08398020d2a47694f&topic=5593.msg95615#msg95615

Basically, everyone creates his god in his own image.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Buster Fixxitt on December 20, 2008, 01:08:44 AM
This would be our first example of "Selves Projection as God" :)

Oho!  Where do multis fit in your matrix, Hermes?

 :D Nice!

By the way, is there a thread somewhere that lists the argot?  Somewhere I can look up what SPAG means if I'm not familiar with the term?

It's a phrase DTE coined, on the old forum.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=9f10c1246b3990f08398020d2a47694f&topic=5593.msg95615#msg95615

Basically, everyone creates his god in his own image.


Thanks XPhobe.  What I was really asking was if there was a list of all the lingo people throw around on this forum. SPAG, Poe, PoE, BM, etc.?  I've sort of started a thread similar, saying we need standardized definitions, but it's not quite the same.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: truehyuga on December 23, 2008, 02:49:36 PM
I understand the gnostic atheist vote(s).  Why mince words?

That said, I'm a gnostic atheist IRT specific deity claims; ex: omnimax deities.  Otherwise, I'm an agnostic atheist; 'show me or blow if you don't have facts'.
Precisely why I chose both.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: RNS on December 27, 2008, 12:22:01 AM
Impossible.  There's a spot for a mouse on that list, surely you can pick one.

What about those who haven't committed themselves to believing that god does or doesn't exist?
I think there could be a god, but i don't actively believe there is one. Nor do i actively disbelieve in the existence of a god.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on December 27, 2008, 12:51:42 AM
What about those who haven't committed themselves to believing that god does or doesn't exist?

Quote
The poll options are roughly divided into two parts;

"Knowledge claim" + "Statement of belief"


So, "Agnostic Polytheist" breaks into;

Knowledge claim: I do not know for certain.
Statement of belief: I think that there is more than one god.

Commitment isn't required.  For example, a gnostic monotheist -- someone who knows for certain there is a specific deity -- could be committed to that deity, committed against that deity, or apathetic toward it entirely.  To that gnostic monotheist, the deity could be considered unworthy of commitment, or could be seen as unwanting of commitment

If you are apathetic about knowledge claims, you would be some kind of apnostic yet may lean toward say ... deism; apnostic deist; "I don't care if there are any gods, but I guess there is a god that started the universe but does not actively meddle with it or us."

If you never considered and never heard of deity claims, you'd be an ignostic atheist; claims about deities mean nothing to you and without knowing about those claims you don't believe anything about deities.

Uncommitted could mean that on Tuesday you believe there are no gods, and Thursday you believe there may be many gods, you would change from some kind of atheist to some kind of polytheist.  If you are that unwilling to pick something, even if temporarily, don't vote ... though I have to ask why it is such a big deal to pick something that is currently correct.  People do change their minds as they learn more or reconsider past ideas.

I think there could be a god, but i don't actively believe there is one. Nor do i actively disbelieve in the existence of a god.

First pick a knowledge claim (Gnostic, Agnostic, Ignostic, or Apnostic) and then the number of gods you believe if any;

* If zero, you're an atheist of some sort.

* If one, you're either a monotheist (active deity) or a deist (uninvolved deity).

* If everything is a deity, you're a pantheist.

* If there are multiple gods, but not everything is a god, you're a polytheist.

* If you are a polytheist, but worship one god only you are a henotheist.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: RNS on December 27, 2008, 01:12:58 AM
First pick a knowledge claim (Gnostic, Agnostic, Ignostic, or Apnostic) and then the number of gods you believe if any;

* If zero, you're an atheist of some sort.

* If one, you're either a monotheist (active deity) or a deist (uninvolved deity).

* If everything is a deity, you're a pantheist.

* If there are multiple gods, but not everything is a god, you're a polytheist.

* If you are a polytheist, but worship one god only you are a henotheist.

I'm agnostic, and I guess I'm an atheist because of my lack of belief in any gods. But, I don't disbelieve in god, i.e. in ure little explanation in the poll, "I think there are no gods"- that's not me. I don't think there aren't, i just don't happen to believe in one, in a similar way that a baby doesn't believe in god.
do you see what I'm trying to say?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on December 27, 2008, 08:52:07 AM
I'm agnostic, and I guess I'm an atheist because of my lack of belief in any gods. But, I don't disbelieve in god, i.e. in ure little explanation in the poll, "I think there are no gods"- that's not me. I don't think there aren't, i just don't happen to believe in one, in a similar way that a baby doesn't believe in god.
do you see what I'm trying to say?

Yes.  The issue?  It's not that easy to accommodate everyone.  That's why I've run this poll 3x and changed it each time.

That said, the belief statements can be read as a strong statement, or a weak one.  This poll isn't on strength, though.  For emphasis, the strength is handled by the knowledge claim not the belief statement.  So, a gnostic monotheist is a strong while an agnostic monotheist is a weak, yet the same two people are also gnostic/agnostic/ignostic/apnostic towards other deity claims.

Since I've run this poll 3x and have tweaked it along the way, if you have recommendations on how to re-write the belief side of the sentence so that it is similar for atheists/monotheists/polytheists/pantheists/deists and henotheists, yet works for ... gnostic/agnostic/ignostic/apnostic knowledge claims as well, I'll tweak it for the fourth run of the poll.

Important: I don't want to split a category (either knowledge or belief) if at all possible.  There are already 21 options, and I could have easily added another 30.  Also, keeping the sentence short so that it doesn't wrap much more is preferred.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: RNS on December 27, 2008, 01:36:36 PM
I think there should be an option of just agnostic- I don't think we have enough information at the moment to know if there are or aren't any gods. There may or may not be any gods.

Something along those lines...I'm not so good at putting thoughts into words :S
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on December 27, 2008, 01:44:29 PM
RNS, I've gone over that conversation many times.  The current arrangement is not ideal, but it seems to cover most categories without unfairly biasing specific categories.  The current one where a knowledge claim like agnosticism is matched up with a statement of belief clears up many more problems than it creates.

If you think of a way to re-word the current sentences or the structure of the options, let me know.  Otherwise, you can make your own poll.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: RNS on December 27, 2008, 01:48:18 PM
yeah i know. sorry.
just thought that you could slip it in somewhere in your next pole.
didn't realise it doesn't work. sorry
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xphobe on December 27, 2008, 01:49:14 PM
Problem is, that's not what agnostic means.   We either need to redefine the word, or we need to come up with another word that means "not enough information at the moment".

T. H. Huxley defined the word to mean "not possible to know", which is stronger than "don't know at the moment".  I truly believe it is not possible to know whether gods exist.  That's why I call myself an agnostic atheist.

Ah well, the word is being redefined in popular usage, to mean exactly what you are saying.  Unfortunately "don't know" also covers a lot of people who are too intellectually lazy to think about it, or who are too wishy-washy to take a position.  Those people shouldn't be rewarded with a label :)

Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on December 27, 2008, 01:50:47 PM
Thanks for the suggestion.  I'm sincere in asking for suggestions on how to adapt it and make more people happy with the available options.  I'm currently stuck on making a better fit -- not that one can not be made by someone.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xphobe on December 27, 2008, 01:57:36 PM
Your poll is actually a 2-dimensional matrix laid out linearly.  One axis is the type of god(s), and the other axis is the certainty of knowledge.  I wonder if there could be a third axis.

I guess someone who doesn't know and doesn't care could be an "ignostic" or an "apnostic", right?  Leaving "agnostic" for people like RNS.

Just remember, RNS, "agnostic" is only locating you along the certainty-of-knowledge axis.  It doesn't say anything about your position on the type-of-god axis.  For example, you could be an agnostic Christian (I know some).
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: RNS on December 27, 2008, 02:53:13 PM
Funny you should say that. I'm actually kind of Christian too. As in I go to church and stuff, and I believe in some of the Christian values and I can see how they are doing good in some communities. Just one small thing, I don't really believe in the God bit of it. I actually disbelieve in the Christian god.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on December 27, 2008, 04:34:41 PM
Xphobe, it's true that I'm not using Huxley's definition of agnostic.  Then again, I'm not using the Gnostic's (mystery religion) definition of gnostic either. 

Both gnostic (mystery) and agnostic (Huxley) were narrow definitions with unique histories that still left gaps that would have to be filled by more generic definitions.  The split I chose was like this;

Theist = Belief in a deity or deities.
A-theist = No belief in a deity or deities.

Gnostic = Knowledge.
A-gnostic = No knowledge.

This follows through the whole matrix, as there are multiple types of beliefs that spawn from theism, as well as types of knowledge claims.

Inaccurate?  Yes.  Not 500 entries long?  Also yes.  The preliminary list was originally around 30-40 entries before I pared it down.  That longer list did not split the gnostic (mystery) and agnostic (Huxley) from the gnostic (knowledge) and agnostic (no knowledge) categories.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on December 27, 2008, 04:51:03 PM
RNS, that would make you a 'cultural Christian'.  I can relate to that, as I was for a while a cultural Catholic.  Dan Dennett absolutely loves some parts of Christian culture, specifically the music.  Yet, from what you've said, from what I saw myself as, and from what Dan has said we three people are basically not-theists; atheists. 

This does not mean that we by necessity have any vigorous stance on this.  I do not actively 'disbelieve' in any deity.  I'm an atheist because I'm basing my belief on my knowledge, and I've yet to be provided positive support for any deity.  If that were to change, and I had knowledge that pointed to the likelihood that one or more deities were more probable than not, I'd accept that and give a nod toward some kind of theistic belief.

IRT the poll, if this cultural category were added as a third qualifier, that would double the list size or would be a stub (one entry) like the joke entries at the end of the list. 

It would be better to make another poll on this, but I haven't thought of it yet.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: alejo_radical on December 31, 2008, 12:15:28 PM
I am the only pantheist :((( well, it's actually two of us!! :D Who's my bro yo? lol
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: realdemocracy on December 31, 2008, 08:38:36 PM
I am the only pantheist :((( well, it's actually two of us!! :D Who's my bro yo? lol
actually, there are 9 of us
6 agnostics, 1 ignostic, and 2 apnostics
I'm one of the agnostics
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: gold_digging_ants on January 01, 2009, 05:55:13 AM
I'm an agnostic atheist (I couldn't decide whether I was an agnostic or an atheist until I saw a clip of The Atheist Experience which introduced me to the notion that you could be both, which I like (I'm not certain enough to be an atheist, but I thought being an agnostic was untenable <and led to more conversion attempts, because "I hadn't made up my mind yet">).  If you know Richard Dawkin's scale of religiosity (1 being absolute certainty about religion, 7 being the strongest atheist you can imagine), I put myself at 6 ("Very low probability, but short of zero.  De facto atheist.  'I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.'")  (I was going to write on the border of 5 and 6, but it seems I've changed my mind since I read the book)

For the Christian god, I'd consider myself on the border of 6 and 7 (for 7- "Strong atheist.  'I know there is no God, with the same conviction Jung "knows" there is one.")
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Deus ex Machina on January 01, 2009, 07:53:33 AM
I am the only pantheist :((( well, it's actually two of us!! :D Who's my bro yo? lol
actually, there are 9 of us
6 agnostics, 1 ignostic, and 2 apnostics
I'm one of the agnostics

And one who didn't tick 'pantheist' for reasons that are complicated.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on January 08, 2009, 11:43:50 PM
[ Combined with next post ]
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on January 09, 2009, 12:01:43 AM
There has been some disagreement and confusion on the word 'agnostic' in this thread and occasionally in the forums in general.  Below are some references that cover the issue in quite a bit of detail, and show why agnostic is in a separate category (knowledge) from both atheist and theist as well as other religious beliefs.

Quick review of the issue
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ncCNwbb5Jc[/youtube]
Nit: Strong vs. weak theism or atheism aren't very useful unless they are narrowly applied to a specific deity or deities.  As such, they tend to cause confusion when talking about a deity or deities outside of what are assumed by each individual speaker in a conversation.


Am I agnostic or atheist? - Includes OED and Websters definitions as well as Huxley's
http://www.rationalresponders.com/am_i_agnostic_or_atheist (http://www.rationalresponders.com/am_i_agnostic_or_atheist)

Atheism, Agnosticism, Noncognitivism - Theodore M. Drange - A more scholarly analysis
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theodore_drange/definition.html

A snippet from the Atheist Experience TV show where Tracie and Matt cover agnosticism, belief, and knowledge;

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acn7m_jwCbI[/youtube]


From full program (Google Video);

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-816278496740157371 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-816278496740157371)


The Atheist Experience (show and archives)
http://www.atheist-experience.com (http://www.atheist-experience.com)


Description from the YouTube snippet of the full program;

Quote
This video is to inform people of how agnosticism and atheism actually are responses to two different questions. Agnosticism deals with knowledge and atheism deals with belief. A person can be an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist. This video is also there to let anyone who claims to be a gnostic atheist or agnostic atheist know that they are not alone in their lack of belief in a personal god (not necessarily the belief that there is no god). I have become a huge fan of The Atheist Experience podcast and of The Non-Prophets podcast. I've learned much from the hosts, most notably, Matt Dillahunty.
The audio is of Tracie Harris and Matt Dillahunty of The Atheist Experience discussing how agnosticism and atheism relate. Excellent definitions of atheism can be found at Infidels.org and at the Rational Responders' site. The list of atheists comes, predominately, from Wikipedia's list of atheists (extensively notated). The idea for the video came from zakiechan's post a few years ago that listed a number of atheists. Thanks and enjoy.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: GigaHand on January 28, 2009, 12:48:17 PM
Okay, to those 16 who claim to be gods...

Could you pwetty pwease make for me a ham sandwich?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on January 28, 2009, 01:24:23 PM
Okay, to those 16 who claim to be gods...

Could you pwetty pwease make for me a ham sandwich?

*BAM!*  You are a ham sandwich.

*BAM!*  You are no longer a ham sandwich.

As for being a god, I think the 16 actually meant something like this;

(http://www.worldofstock.com/slides/PHE2755.jpg) (http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1557/PreviewComp/SuperStock_1557R-298747.jpg)

...or some variation (ethnic change, focus on face or some other body part, ...).
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Tails_155 on January 28, 2009, 01:26:50 PM
Narcissus wasn't a deity though...
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Noumenon on February 02, 2009, 10:36:13 PM
I don't know about the other 15, but what I mean when I say that I am a god is that all religious experiences are self generated.  I am a god in the aspect that all of my god-like experiences extend from the phisiological processess inside the seven pounds of grey matter on top of my shoulders.  It is just an extension of the SPAG concept. 

There is no evidence of an externally existant god.  We all create our own internal one, therefore we are all "gods".

Notice it is lower case and not supreme.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: SilkSpectre on February 02, 2009, 11:51:42 PM
I'm picking ignostic atheist because I don't think it should matter whether there is any sort of "higher power" or "supreme being". We should all be good people regardless of their existence, not because of it.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: gold_digging_ants on February 03, 2009, 12:00:21 AM
Is it worth being able to change your position on the poll?  I know that my position has changed a few times in the past year or so (not since I voted on the poll, I don't think, but it has changed).  Perhaps the thinking here has influenced people (it's influenced me)?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on February 03, 2009, 12:11:04 AM
Is it worth being able to change your position on the poll?

I didn't check the right box this time.   Sorry!   :(


REQUEST TO MODERATORS: If possible, without too much trouble, please enable the ability to change votes on this poll.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Operator_013 on February 03, 2009, 06:04:21 AM
REQUEST TO MODERATORS: If possible, without too much trouble, please enable the ability to change votes on this poll.

Done!

For the record, I don't think any staff member would mind if you "reported" the thread (perhaps by means of "reporting" your own OP) in order to make requests like this, as this is likely to bring it to our attention more immediately, rather than posting in-thread, which is equivalent to crossing your fingers and hoping that a staff member will stumble across the thread. This forum has few staff, so we really do rely on forum members' use of the reporting facility in order to manage it. ;)

Thirteen
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: GamerGirl on February 03, 2009, 06:09:25 AM
I chose Agnostic Monotheist.  I believe that God exists but I cannot prove it.

I picked Missionary. >=D For the lulz

I selected Karma Sutra because there were too many dang options to choose from. :-/
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on February 03, 2009, 05:32:01 PM
I don't think any staff member would mind if you "reported" the thread (perhaps by means of "reporting" your own OP) in order to make requests like this, as this is likely to bring it to our attention more immediately

Got it.  Hadn't considered that trick!
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: LarianLeQuella on February 15, 2009, 11:06:58 AM
I picked the Gnostic Atheist just because I don't like having my nits picked.  ;)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Henkybaby on February 22, 2009, 01:33:42 PM
I would like to add the anti-theist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitheism) to the list (if it is not mentioned already).

I do believe in the concept of God. However, it is not a divine being but a meme. A figment of man's imagination. You can hardly deny that this meme (deity) exist. The God concept is all around us so in that sense I actually can prove the existence of God.

Now I am very much against this development in human evolution. More harm than good has come out of this God-meme. That's why the anti part.

An anti-theist.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on February 22, 2009, 02:16:10 PM
I'll consider it for a new version of the list, though I can't see a good way to add it without doubling or tripling the list size.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xTigerx on February 22, 2009, 02:27:40 PM
Isn't anti-theism basically militant atheism?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Henkybaby on February 22, 2009, 02:33:53 PM
What is the essence of militant atheism?

(Remember: I do believe in God, but not as a supreme being but as a figment of mans imagination!)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Azdgari on February 22, 2009, 02:40:15 PM
Henkybaby, do you think we should add "inquisitorial" and "evangelical" to the list as well?  They too are attitudes toward (a)theism that don't have anything directly to do with one's (a)theist belief itself.  Anti-(a)theism is an attitude toward types of god-(dis)belief; it is not a type of god (dis)belief in itself.  It does not belong on this list since it is off-topic.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xTigerx on February 22, 2009, 02:45:54 PM
What is the essence of militant atheism?

Well it's a sub-heading under 'anti-theism':

Quote
Militant atheism

The active antitheist stance is sometimes called "militant" atheism.[8] In 1922 Lenin wrote an essay On the Significance of Militant Materialism, in which he commended the journal Pod Znamenem Marksizma as a "militant atheist" journal. He defined this as "carry[ing] on untiring atheist propaganda and an untiring atheist fight".[9] The Society of the Godless was established in the Soviet Union as a militant atheist organisation,[10][11] and the term has also been applied to a number of key figures in the development of Marxism, including Karl Marx,[12] Friedrich Engels[13][14] and Joseph Dietzgen.[15]

Today the term is sometimes used pejoratively by theists to describe people believed to campaign actively or outspokenly for atheism and against religion. Catherine Fahringer of the Freedom From Religion Foundation has suggested that the label militant is often routinely applied to atheist for no good reason–"very much as was the adjective 'damn' attached to the noun 'Yankee' during the Civil War."[16]

Quote
Atheistic evangelism

Atheistic evangelism, or evangelical atheism, is a pejorative term used by Christian apologists to describe the approach of those who actively promote atheism. Some Christian apologists have described the characteristics of "atheistic evangelism" during the past century and a half.[35] The term "Evangelical atheism" is also used by atheist Dan Barker.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitheism#Militant_atheism

(Remember: I do believe in God, but not as a supreme being but as a figment of mans imagination!)

That's not believing in God the supreme being, that's believing in God the concept.  Atheists and agnostics acknowledge that God the concept exists (you'd be at a disconnect from reality if you don't).
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Henkybaby on February 22, 2009, 02:49:43 PM
Ok. Pick your battles I say. This is not one of them. :)

The reason I make the distinction is that normally I do not debate the existence of God since to me it does not matter if he is real or not. I debate the consequences of his existence (in all his forms) which are the same whether he is real in a physical sense or not.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xTigerx on February 22, 2009, 02:55:18 PM
Ok. Pick your battles I say. This is not one of them. :)

The reason I make the distinction is that normally I do not debate the existence of God since to me it does not matter if he is real or not. I debate the consequences of his existence (in all his forms) which are the same whether he is real in a physical sense or not.

I'd say you're a pure agnostic (a label I prefer to 'atheist').  But modern usage of the words atheist and agnostic are so confusing that you're an atheist by some definitions (as long as you don't believe in a god).

The definitions in this thread don't accurately reflect that, so just do what I did: choose both agnostic atheist and agnostic deist.  They cancel out that way :P
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Henkybaby on February 22, 2009, 02:57:18 PM
Oh no, in the meaning of the thread I am a gnostic atheist. I am very sure there is no supreme being.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xTigerx on February 22, 2009, 03:00:08 PM
Oh no, in the meaning of the thread I am a gnostic atheist. I am very sure there is no supreme being.

Oh ok... we don't have many gnostic atheists around here (most of the ones who selected gnostic atheist meant atheist to the Christian God).
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on February 22, 2009, 04:15:25 PM
Isn't anti-theism basically militant atheism?

With guns?  None that I know of.  If you mean just fervent, then yes.  Yet, keeping that word fervent in mind, the same could be attributed to almost any group religious or non-religious.  Because of that, the number of likely combinations goes up substantially not just for the one narrow case of types of atheists.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xTigerx on February 22, 2009, 04:21:11 PM
Isn't anti-theism basically militant atheism?

With guns?  None that I know of.  If you mean just fervent, then yes.  Yet, keeping that word fervent in mind, the same could be attributed to almost any group religious or non-religious.  Because of that, the number of likely combinations goes up substantially not just for the one narrow case of types of atheists.

Yea... which is why it's not a separate group per se.  I don't think views on evangelism matter much in a poll like this.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Davo on February 22, 2009, 10:01:37 PM
where's the option for "I'm a dude who doesn't beleive in stories"
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on February 22, 2009, 10:08:18 PM
Welcome Davo!

To answer your question, there is none in this poll.  Feel free to fire up your own poll on that subject if you want.

You'll probably agree with me on this: I like fiction yet I try and not mistake it for reality.   ;D
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Davo on February 24, 2009, 07:27:12 PM
Too true. I should also learn how to spell 'believe' properly, I guess.  ;)

Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xphobe on February 24, 2009, 10:52:10 PM
Too true. I should also learn how to spell 'believe' properly, I guess.  ;)



Remember the old poem...

I before E
except after C
or when sounded like "a"
as in Neighbor and Weigh.

Of course that still doesn't help people spell Atheist, does it? :)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Agamemnon on March 10, 2009, 11:17:52 PM
I changed my vote to from Gnostic Atheist to Agnostic Atheist.  It gives you a little breathing room in a debate, I think.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Odin on March 13, 2009, 04:12:51 AM
I chose Agnostic Atheist.  I guess it's the wiggle room thing.  Plus, my signature would be meaningless!

Odin, King of the Gods
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: DeliriumS on March 23, 2009, 11:07:29 PM
i'm christhian i wonder why im not in the list  &)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xTigerx on March 23, 2009, 11:16:46 PM
i'm christhian i wonder why im not in the list  &)

Theist = someone who believes in a god or gods.  So if you're a Christian, you're either a gnostic monotheist (you KNOW one God exists) or an agnostic monotheist (you don't KNOW, but you believe one God exists).
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: DeliriumS on March 23, 2009, 11:34:17 PM
i'm christhian i wonder why im not in the list  &)

Theist = someone who believes in a god or gods.  So if you're a Christian, you're either a gnostic monotheist (you KNOW one God exists) or an agnostic monotheist (you don't KNOW, but you believe one God exists).

i dont se theist there, do you?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: DeliriumS on March 23, 2009, 11:35:23 PM
i'm christhian i wonder why im not in the list  &)

Theist = someone who believes in a god or gods.  So if you're a Christian, you're either a gnostic monotheist (you KNOW one God exists) or an agnostic monotheist (you don't KNOW, but you believe one God exists).

i dont se theist there, do you? i see gnostic monotheist, but i wanted to put emphasis in my believes, (because you can be monotheist and dont believe in jesus)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xTigerx on March 23, 2009, 11:44:35 PM
i'm christhian i wonder why im not in the list  &)

Theist = someone who believes in a god or gods.  So if you're a Christian, you're either a gnostic monotheist (you KNOW one God exists) or an agnostic monotheist (you don't KNOW, but you believe one God exists).

i dont se theist there, do you? i see gnostic monotheist, but i wanted to put emphasis in my believes, (because you can be monotheist and dont believe in jesus)

Well the poll is very general.  It can't include all the specific beliefs, otherwise it would be endless.  If you believe Jesus is the one true God, then you're a monotheist.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Azdgari on March 24, 2009, 07:03:45 AM
Or a polytheist, depending on how you interpret the Trinity.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on March 24, 2009, 10:00:34 AM
i'm christhian i wonder why im not in the list  &)

Theist = someone who believes in a god or gods.  So if you're a Christian, you're either a gnostic monotheist (you KNOW one God exists) or an agnostic monotheist (you don't KNOW, but you believe one God exists).

i dont se theist there, do you?

Forget the titles, look at the definitions.  Pick the one(s) that apply to you.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Agamemnon on March 24, 2009, 11:01:12 AM
I don't see methodist in there, Heremes.  Come on, man!!  You're letting us down.

 ;D  Just kidding!
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on March 24, 2009, 01:28:15 PM
I don't see methodist in there, Heremes.  Come on, man!!  You're letting us down.

 ;D  Just kidding!

I'll add it ... along with Scientologist and Raelian as soon as a galactic fleet shows up.   ;D
Title: The entire poll depends on the definition of god
Post by: xopowo on March 25, 2009, 04:19:14 AM
The entire poll is dependant upon the definition of the word god. Since I took the definition to mean: 'A being which is impossible to detect,' I chose agnostic atheist. If at some point in the future, science detects evidence for a superpowerful creature which either created the universe, or life on earth, etc, then it would be a GODLIKE being, but not impossible to detect, and therefore not god.
Title: Re: The entire poll depends on the definition of god
Post by: Hermes on March 25, 2009, 09:06:07 AM
The entire poll is dependant upon the definition of the word god. Since I took the definition to mean: 'A being which is impossible to detect,' I chose agnostic atheist. If at some point in the future, science detects evidence for a superpowerful creature which either created the universe, or life on earth, etc, then it would be a GODLIKE being, but not impossible to detect, and therefore not god.

The deity or deities in question are defined by the person answering the poll.  Many deities have and are not defined as undetectable, and many are considered very powerful but rarely or never expressing supernatural abilities.  Beyond the fan club mysticism that is popular in later revisions of monotheisms, few deities are 'impossible to detect' though they may not show up to be detected at the time you are looking.   ;)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Nam on March 25, 2009, 06:54:15 PM
I chose "Ignostic Atheist".

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: GamerGirl on March 26, 2009, 01:45:46 AM
Is there a panentheism option? I like this one the best out of all the options I've looked at.

However, since labels suck, I stick to a single word: 'person'--it sums up all of what I am, who I am, why I am, how I am, and where I am going; it can even help find when I got here. 
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Azdgari on March 26, 2009, 01:56:09 AM
"Person" isn't a very informative label for a religious position.  Given that you are a poor authority re: your own beliefs, though, it's probably safest.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: GamerGirl on March 26, 2009, 03:42:47 AM
"Person" isn't a very informative label for a religious position.  Given that you are a poor authority re: your own beliefs, though, it's probably safest.

Eh... I gladly choose God... so... person is good enough for me....

Although... I am very fond of panentheism: the universe is part of what God is.  I still think all religious doctrine is right and wrong because doctrines are often senseless.  As a Christian why they are Christian, and why may say what I will say:

Because I accepted Jesus into my heart.

As long as a person does that, this is biblical, the rest is between God and an individual... at least as far as a soul is concerned.

I am very fond of God... All the things I have ever truly desired and prayed for, have come to pass... What else do I need? My father beat me in the name of God, I asked God to save me from my father.  My father, in eight years, has not once hit me. 

I asked God for intelligence and wisdom as a child, because I knew that I would need them.

I asked God for friends when I had none, I now have many.

I asked God for food when I had to wash windows to help feed my family.  I now have more than enough to eat.

I asked God to help me get over my first break up and learn how to love again... I now have the most loving boyfriend I have ever met.

I have been unfaithful though, for one week, I abandoned God, to see if I could handle it.  It was too hard.  My life almost immediately lost all the meaning I had prayed so hard for.  I worked as well, but faith without works is meaningless. 

Not only that.... But I doubt my own religious beliefs on a daily basis.... I often ask myself why I bother believing... Yet, I find it hard not to believe at the same time.

I am a heathon though... I do not follow normal Christian practices.  I think, for instance, that all eras, all cultures, all people have their own "messiah".  A son of God that saves them from their misery.  Just because I like to name the man Jesus son of Yaweh, doesn't mean that I cannot accept Allah or Buddah or even saints and martyrs as being honorably dignified people.  I love St. Augustine.  He was a great man who had a flair for words....

I am weird, I am unique... I am unconventional.... but not at the same time... I still fall under the Christian category because I believe that Jesus died for my sins and rose again.... so what? My belief harms no one... Christian morals can often damage people... But they can also save people as well...

Just as atheism saves you from being what you detest most, Christianity saved me from being the one word I detested most: hateful.

Call me a liar, I'm cool.... But to call me hateful? That would be like a slap in the face.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Nam on March 26, 2009, 03:46:48 AM
You're hateful. Did I slap you too hard? Is there a mark?

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: GamerGirl on March 26, 2009, 04:26:35 AM
You're hateful. Did I slap you too hard? Is there a mark?

-Nam


I love my enemy and turn the other cheek and then apologize for past things said that cannot be unsaid... Such is life.  I will move on.

How are you today? How is your poetry?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on March 26, 2009, 09:08:13 AM
Is there a panentheism option?

As opposed to Pantheism, nope.  You're the first to mention it.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xphobe on March 26, 2009, 10:18:02 AM
According to Wiki the difference between panentheism and pantheism is that in pantheism, "God is in the whole"; in panentheism, "The whole is in God."

Wiki leaves out a third option: "God is the whole"  That to me is true pantheism.  pan=all.  What does it even mean to say that everything is only a part of god?  That's nonsense.  panentheism is superfluous.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on March 26, 2009, 10:21:09 AM
Xphobe, that works for me.  If anyone can give a better reason for adding one or more, make your case.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: realdemocracy on March 28, 2009, 12:15:42 AM
According to Wiki the difference between panentheism and pantheism is that in pantheism, "God is in the whole"; in panentheism, "The whole is in God."

Wiki leaves out a third option: "God is the whole"  That to me is true pantheism.  pan=all.  What does it even mean to say that everything is only a part of god?  That's nonsense.  panentheism is superfluous.

Hinduism is a panentheistic religion, and while I am not, and have never been a Hindu, I have examined it a bit (Hare Krishna Temple = delicious, free, vegetarian Indian food...and the monks will come over and talk with you if you're not a "regular," so you get to pick their brains about their religion).  If I understand their notion of it, the creator is Brahma, who created the universe, and exists ubiquitously throughout it.  It is simply the notion that god is omnipresent, kinda like the Christian concept of the holy spirit.

As you say, pantheism is the idea that the universe (or all of reality, if you don't see those two as necessarily synonymous) is god, or as I used to describe it when I called myself a pantheist, divine. 
But at some point I realized that if everything is divine, then divinity is mundane, and thus moot.

Later, I revised that to say that the universe and everything in it contains divinity, though it is obvious that not everything manifests or exhibits that trait, but that gets close to the views of some sects of Buddhism, in which every spirit has within it the Buddha nature, and that the challenge of life (or our several lives) is to actualize our own godliness and become divine.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Azdgari on March 28, 2009, 01:50:59 AM
If I understand their notion of it, the creator is Brahma, who created the universe, and exists ubiquitously throughout it.  It is simply the notion that god is omnipresent, kinda like the Christian concept of the holy spirit.

That's not quite correct, RD.  Brahma is the creator, yes, but it is also the fundamental "substance" of which existence itself is composed.  The universe is "made of" Brahma.  It really is pantheism in that sense, but becomes polytheism due to all the lesser gods and spirits they posit in addition.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: kevyrat69 on March 28, 2009, 10:11:59 PM
Can I try Karma Sutra even if I don't believe that way?  I just like all those sex positions LOL ;D
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on March 28, 2009, 10:16:57 PM
Can I try Karma Sutra even if I don't believe that way?  I just like all those sex positions LOL ;D

Hmmmm ... I think it's in the public domain.  Your actions may be limited by both local laws and willing partners, of course!
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: realdemocracy on March 29, 2009, 03:07:51 AM
If I understand their notion of it, the creator is Brahma, who created the universe, and exists ubiquitously throughout it.  It is simply the notion that god is omnipresent, kinda like the Christian concept of the holy spirit.

That's not quite correct, RD.  Brahma is the creator, yes, but it is also the fundamental "substance" of which existence itself is composed.  The universe is "made of" Brahma.  It really is pantheism in that sense, but becomes polytheism due to all the lesser gods and spirits they posit in addition.
Apparently, we have both made the common English-language mistake of equating Brahma, the creator god, with Brahman, the fundamental essence of reality.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Azdgari on March 29, 2009, 03:12:52 AM
Damn.  True that.  Really, though, Brahman was what Brahma came from, so Brahman can still be rightly said to be the "creator" in Hinduism. ;)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: realdemocracy on March 29, 2009, 03:30:58 AM
Damn.  True that.  Really, though, Brahman was what Brahma came from, so Brahman can still be rightly said to be the "creator" in Hinduism. ;)
Yes, and all gods are merely aspects of Brahman, and humanity too are all just aspects of Brahman, making it kinda like Wicca; and realizing that and then actualizing it are the purpose of life...which makes it kinda like Buddhism...and all religions are just different ways of understanding Hinduism, which makes it kinda like Universalism....
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: HELLIOS on March 30, 2009, 02:48:17 AM
 >:( My religious position is ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN= ORTHY -DOXA means right believe and christian means
Jesus Christ our lord and savior.If your are an Atheist believe in nothing and doing nothing is your choice.
But for thousands of years of man kind until now everything is been build and created on believe.
And of course I believe on the Antichrist we been waiting for his arrival all this time and it is time for him to recruit his army of followers in order to try and destroy God.But I say a handful will save the masses. ;D

All have a happy life

HELLIOS (means =the sun)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on March 30, 2009, 03:32:54 PM
>:( My religious position is ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN= ORTHY -DOXA means right believe and christian means
Jesus Christ our lord and savior.If your are an Atheist believe in nothing and doing nothing is your choice.
But for thousands of years of man kind until now everything is been build and created on believe.
And of course I believe on the Antichrist we been waiting for his arrival all this time and it is time for him to recruit his army of followers in order to try and destroy God.But I say a handful will save the masses. ;D

All have a happy life

HELLIOS (means =the sun)

Hellios, if you want to make a new thread on the subject of Orthodox Christianity [Greek or ?], or on end-times prophecy, feel free.

Thanks for voting in this poll.

As for "If your are an Atheist believe in nothing and doing nothing is your choice." that's not what an atheist is.  An atheist lacks theistic belief; belief in one or more deities.  What we do believe, though, tends to vary greatly from person to person, so if you want to know what our beliefs are you need to ask individuals -- just as you would ask individual Christians if you wanted to know what they believe beyond basic ideas about Christ.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: screwtape on March 30, 2009, 03:35:42 PM
Hellios, if you want to make a new thread on the subject of Orthodox Christianity [Greek or ?], or on end-times prophecy, feel free.

Thanks for voting in this poll.

As for "If your are an Atheist believe in nothing and doing nothing is your choice." that's not what an atheist is.  An atheist lacks theistic belief; belief in one or more deities.  What we do believe, though, tends to vary greatly from person to person, so if you want to know what our beliefs are you need to ask individuals -- just as you would ask individual Christians if you wanted to know what they believe beyond basic ideas about Christ.

I think it would be more accurate to say that to call yourself a "theist" says as much about your overall beliefs as "atheist" does.  xian is much more specific than "atheist". 
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on April 05, 2009, 04:31:01 PM
Still confused about the difference between theism, atheism, gnosticism, and agnosticism -- and who's dogmatic?

Laci breaks it down ...

The Atheism/Agnosticism Relationship
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIKeC9k2-Jg[/youtube]

Her channel;

http://www.youtube.com/user/gogreen18 (http://www.youtube.com/user/gogreen18)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: GamerGirl on April 07, 2009, 05:32:55 AM
I think this poll is silly because it's too... specialized and the sample size is not large enough to cover an adequate survey.... Eh, I felt pretentious in asking for pantheism or manentheism, but even so... I'm religiously confused and think that at this moment, I should continue to call myself myself and forget all the silly census labels that society wants me to find.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on April 07, 2009, 08:55:37 AM
I think this poll is silly because it's too... specialized and the sample size is not large enough to cover an adequate survey....

...and it's self-selecting, lack of controls on tracking how many people chose multiple answers and what they were, as well as having some other serious faults even before we get into the error rate for the small sample size.  If you have the money and time for a full survey with professionals, have at it.

Eh, I felt pretentious in asking for pantheism or manentheism,

Monotheism?

but even so... I'm religiously confused and think that at this moment, I should continue to call myself myself and forget all the silly census labels that society wants me to find.

There are categories that are intentionality missing from the list just to keep the size down and allow multiple choice answers.  If you can think of one that isn't so unique that it describes one snowflake in a blizzard, offer your suggestions.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Azdgari on April 07, 2009, 08:58:04 AM
I think she meant "panentheism" but made a typo.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xphobe on April 07, 2009, 09:45:15 AM
manentheism = man is part of god? 

Generically as in "mankind", or gender-specific, as in "men are from God, women are from Satan"?

(j/k)  :D
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: GamerGirl on April 13, 2009, 01:33:32 AM
panentheism... yep...

But I'm keeping it as Manentheism, man.  They call me mansquid on the web sometimes and it all started from an inside joke.

But Panentheism, to me, means that I can believe in God and science and still be myself. 

Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: politechristian on May 04, 2009, 05:08:34 PM
I dont really care what you think. What you think God is.


As a bible believing christian.

I am far more interested in what you do.

Do you care more about others than yourself. Then you are my brother.

Do you consider benefiting you or things you like more important than others.  Then you need help.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Astreja on May 04, 2009, 09:22:09 PM
Do you care more about others than yourself. Then you are my brother.

Do you consider benefiting you or things you like more important than others.  Then you need help.

I respectfully disagree.  It's important to strike an equitable balance between self and others.  Denying yourself while giving, giving, giving is not any more healthy than denying others and living only for yourself.

Been there, done that.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xphobe on May 04, 2009, 10:51:06 PM
^ Yup.  Even Jesus said "love others as yourself" - not more than, or less than yourself.

Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on May 04, 2009, 11:28:20 PM
Wisdom from Astreja, once again.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: periboob on June 16, 2009, 12:19:35 PM
I am probably closest to apnostic deist, but that is not really it. Why would I choose to guess on a matter where I have absolutely zero indicators either way? And as far as I can see, there is no benefit to making a guess. If there is no god, does it matter what I believe? It is a waste of effort to guess. If there is a god which wishes to remain hidden, who am I to speculate on His nature? If the creator of this Universe desires to hide, you can bet your ass we will never see any evidence of it. Maybe I am part of the lab experiment, and at the apocalypse the logical ones will be selected for breeding a new race. What can you say about chocolate manhole covers?

On the other hand, if there is an entity who created the Universe, and wants all things to know, and worship s/he/it, and has achieved the current results--Most matter not living, majority of living things have no intelligence and cant worship the invisible, majority of humans worship, but cant agree on what it is they are devoted to, a fair minority are absolutely sure that there is no creator--well, with that track record, God would just as likely send the wrong bunch to hell anyway. So, I am going to withold my faith, belief, even my guess, until I see a few burning bushes or something.

I think that the words ending in "eist" dont fit me well. While looking for enlightenment, I prayed to Google, "sets" that is. Often, Sets provides useful suggestions (but this time it also made me laugh). I went to labs.google.com/sets and gave it a starting list: deist, atheist, pantheist, then clicked "large set". Got a nice list, and a good answer for me. There in the lower-middle, see it? I am a skeptic. I dont "believe" things, given some evidence, I assign probabilities, I avoid even guessing without basis.

Here is the list I got, (for the record here in case Google changes her opinion) mostly what one might expect--except third from the bottom.  :D

Predicted Items
deist
atheist
pantheist
muslim
buddhist
mormon
jewish
christian
agnostic
hindu
sikh
catholic
rastafarian
presbyterian
lutheran
quaker
pagan
humanist
atheism
unity
episcopal
taoist
baptist/ame
freethinker
religion
protestant
agnosticism
skeptic
deism
nonbelievers
humanism
freethought
methodist
islam
unitarian
wiccan
other
secular+humanism
youtube
baptist
bible

Oh, my. Scientology didnt make the list here either--probably those Wikipedians have infested Google.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xphobe on June 16, 2009, 02:02:19 PM
I prayed to Google, "sets" that is. Often, Sets provides useful suggestions (but this time it also made me laugh). I went to labs.google.com/sets and gave it a starting list: deist, atheist, pantheist, then clicked "large set".

Hey thanks for that tip periboob!    Another new tool to play with.  I love this here inter webs.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Agga on June 16, 2009, 03:13:51 PM
Quote
Agnostic Monotheist - I do not know for certain, but I think only one specific god exists.
Agnostic Pantheist - I do not know for certain, but I think that everything is god.
Agnostic Deist - I do not know for certain, but I think there is a god that started the universe but does not actively meddle with it or us.

I don't usually go for labels, per se, I'd say that a sort of montage of those three would be where I currently sit.

I like to ponder that there is only one god which is the universe and also that god doesn't meddle in things because god isn't an external entity to the uiniverse. or anything at all like religion claims.


So what does that work out to be?

Agga :)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Wolverine on June 19, 2009, 06:07:48 AM
I clicked "Gnostic atheist." I like to go around saying that it is logically/rhetorically/philosophically provable that god definitely does not exist, but when I say that I'm referring specifically and only to the biblical Yahweh.

When it comes to the existence of a god in general, I like to say that if god does exist, he wants me to think he doesn't, and I'll gladly oblige.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Azdgari on June 19, 2009, 09:55:30 AM
Quote
Agnostic Monotheist - I do not know for certain, but I think only one specific god exists.
Agnostic Pantheist - I do not know for certain, but I think that everything is god.
Agnostic Deist - I do not know for certain, but I think there is a god that started the universe but does not actively meddle with it or us.

I don't usually go for labels, per se, I'd say that a sort of montage of those three would be where I currently sit.

I like to ponder that there is only one god which is the universe and also that god doesn't meddle in things because god isn't an external entity to the uiniverse. or anything at all like religion claims.


So what does that work out to be?

Agnostic deist or pandeist, maybe, but not agnostic monotheist or pantheist.  Theism, as opposed to deism, posits that the deity does meddle in things.  So you're definitely a deist of some sort.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Agga on June 21, 2009, 12:35:38 AM
Yeah I suppose I do err towards the side of some kind of deist.  Hmm.  The search continues :)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Azdgari on June 23, 2009, 10:41:05 PM
I just formed this position in another thread, and it makes sense to me that the terminology work this way, but I'm not sure if it's officially accepted anywhere.  I'll quote:

Mar, a deist can be either a theist or an atheist.  If the deist believes in any additional, theistic god(s) (ie. one who meddles in the world), then the deist is also a theist.  If the deist does not believe in such additional, theistic god(s), then the deist is an atheist.

Atheism is the lack of belief in theistic deities.  Belief (or lack thereof) in mere deistic deities is correctly termed deism or adeism.

I'm not sure if adeism is a word, but imo it should be.  A deistic god is not the same thing as a theistic god, after all.  A god cannot be both meddling and not-meddling.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on June 24, 2009, 12:50:59 AM
I just formed this position in another thread, and it makes sense to me that the terminology work this way, but I'm not sure if it's officially accepted anywhere.  I'll quote:

Mar, a deist can be either a theist or an atheist. 

In a strict sense, no.  While deists (or capital d Deists) are close philosophically to non-theists, they do make a claim about the existence of a deity.  As such, deists/Deists are theists.  (I consider them a transitional form, though!  ;D )

That said, I won't bust the chops of a deist or Deist or (as I've been reminded) a pantheist as long as they don't have additional flaky (and unsupported) ideas about how the world is.  If they do, then I will focus on those ideas and not their theism.

Deism (cap D or lowercase d) or pantheism is a nod to the idea that there could be or is a powerful entity that kicked off the whole process or (in the case of pantheism) *is* the whole process.  This was a noble and reasonable position when we were more ignorant of the nature of reality.  Now, it is less so but not as absurd as full blown supernatural theisms.

The deists/Deists/pantheists are logically consistent.  The universe/reality are consistent with what they say.  Yet, it is another layer and currently does not have any specific support for it.  This, also, is consistent with both logic and reality so it can not be dismissed except for the situation that focuses on the obvious; if you don't have support, why consider it?  Silence follows.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Azdgari on June 24, 2009, 01:18:15 AM
Hermes, I understand what deism is.  You didn't quite address my point:  A Deist generally has no belief in theistic gods.  That's why they're called Deists instead of Theists.  That they believe in a non-theistic god does not make them Theists, any more than belief in ancient alien overlords makes Scientologists into Theists.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xphobe on June 24, 2009, 11:55:42 AM
If all gods are considered theist gods, and if deist gods are considered a subset of theist gods, then calling onself a deist as opposed to a theist is merely narrowing down your stance.

If that doesn't work, what is the term for all gods, including those which meddle and those which don't?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Azdgari on June 24, 2009, 12:05:24 PM
That's just the thing though, xphobe.  Theism specifically doesn't refer to belief in deistic gods.  Otherwise there would be no reason for the term "deist" to exist as an alternative to "theist".  Theism is specifically the belief in meddling god(s).  Deism is a belief in non-meddling god(s).  Leprachaunism is a belief in leprachauns.  Why conflate any of these into one term?

Quote
If that doesn't work, what is the term for all gods, including those which meddle and those which don't?

I'm not sure.  Theism is a bad word for it, since its root refers to meddling god(s).  Theism is the word that gets used for this purpose most often anyway, but I'd put it to you that this is mainly because there are so few identified deists.

Why is such a term necessary?  And is the lack of such a term a good argument against the nomenclature I have laid out?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xphobe on June 24, 2009, 12:24:16 PM
Leprechauns and ancient alien overlords aren't gods.  Well maybe Leprechauns are, I don't know enough about them.

The problem is that we're using theos- in two different senses: as meddling gods in the root of Theism, and as any gods in the root of Atheism.  So atheism is not the direct opposite of theism.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Azdgari on June 24, 2009, 12:45:22 PM
I guess the root of the problem, then, is that we're using the same root (theos) for two different things.  Sounds like a case for a new word, imo.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on June 24, 2009, 02:16:07 PM
I guess the root of the problem, then, is that we're using the same root (theos) for two different things.  Sounds like a case for a new word, imo.

Good idea.  The floor is open to anyone ... give your reasons for or against a third category that deism or Deism will fit in, while specific theistic groups would not while it clearly not atheistic either.

That said, maybe this would be outside the scope of both words, just as gnostic/agnostic/... are about knowledge and theism/atheism/... are about belief -- maybe deism fits into is about some other category that can be complimentary with both statements of knowledge and belief.

Imaginary bonus points if you can provide a coherent word.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xphobe on June 24, 2009, 02:27:42 PM
maybe this would be outside the scope of both words, just as gnostic/agnostic/... are about knowledge and theism/atheism/... are about belief -- maybe deism fits into is about some other category that can be complimentary with both statements of knowledge and belief.

Funny you should mention that - the problem is similar to that of theist/atheist.  Gnostic and Agnostic are not opposites.

Gnostic has a specific meaning: any of several religious movements in ancient times, considered heretical by "mainstream" Christianity, loosely related by the belief that "humans are divine souls trapped in a material world created by an imperfect god, the demiurge" (Wiki), and that their knowledge was obtained via mystical revelation.

So we have a similar problem: a Christian (or adherent of any other religion) who wants to distance himself from Gnosticism does not call himself an Agnostic, as Huxley has defined the word.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Barracuda on July 01, 2009, 11:17:03 AM
I am god.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: PeterRabbit on July 01, 2009, 11:20:56 AM
I am god.

Pleased to meet you, God. :)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: PeterRabbit on July 01, 2009, 11:31:01 AM
Gnostic Atheist. Proud of it. ;D
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: thegodiknew on July 03, 2009, 12:44:04 PM
Me?
Gnostic Atheist specific to all permutations of the Abrahamic/Desert/Patrist god. Otherwise lean Agnostic/Ignostic Pantheist, but avoid ever applying the word "god" to that idea since the word "god" is so inextricably linked to the Abrahamic god and thereby so tainted as a concept that it is useless as a word outside that context, and if it could be, it would be a blasphemy of the much greater and more awe-inspiring pantheistic concept to call it, merely, "god".
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: stevenswld on July 03, 2009, 02:05:11 PM
I must point out the error in your statement that "the Old Testament doesn't disallow other gods from being possible". The Old Testament specifically says there are no other gods but the God of Abraham. It says that people worship false gods. It says over and over that these gods are not really gods and many are made by the hands of men. There is not a single verse in the Old Testament that supports the possibilty of other REAL gods. I would suggest that when you make such statements in the future that you quote chapter and verse instead of propagating an untruth.

Reason why they are; The OT talks about other gods and does not disallow them from being possible ... just not to be worshipped.  As such, the followers of the Abrahamic religions should acknowledge that other gods exist (if theirs does) and then state that they worship one even though that is the case.  (One or a pantheon of co-mingled gods depending on sect.)
[/quote]
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xphobe on July 04, 2009, 03:32:31 PM
The Old Testament specifically says there are no other gods but the God of Abraham. It says that people worship false gods. It says over and over that these gods are not really gods and many are made by the hands of men.

Please cite your source... chapter and verse... specifically.

Quote
There is not a single verse in the Old Testament that supports the possibilty of other REAL gods. I would suggest that when you make such statements in the future that you quote chapter and verse instead of propagating an untruth.

1. "Elohim" is plural.
2. "Let us make man in our image"  is not the imperial "we".  For that matter, who was he talking to?
3. "Thou shalt have none other gods before me" implies the possibility of other gods.
4. "I am a jealous god" (jealous of what??  He's God, for godsakes)

These are all such well-known quotes that I don't think I need to quote chapter and verse here do I?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: HisWill on July 17, 2009, 08:43:05 AM
Wow that poll has alot of choices... Admittedly I had no idea people even called themselves most of those things much less had an exact onhand definition for it. Personally I've never had much of a penchant for labeling everything, to each his own though.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on July 17, 2009, 08:57:00 AM
Wow that poll has alot of choices... Admittedly I had no idea people even called themselves most of those things much less had an exact onhand definition for it. Personally I've never had much of a penchant for labeling everything, to each his own though.

This is actually the abbreviated version, tweaked after running the poll twice before, and looking at the results and comments.  On my own, I could easily justify expanding the list 2-4x what it is now.  On top of that, many people have asked to have additions to the list that would have brought the possible choices well past 100 items.  Ideally, using a more complex web form and a database as opposed to just multiple choice would give the most comprehensive results and we could then see clearer trends (such as if people picked multiple entries or only single entries, and if they did choose multiple entries did they tend to pick the same entries as other people).

Keep in mind that this is from the level of a satellite photo, not a street-level view.  Even before the sect or religious group is brought in, if you ask people what they think they will give wildly different answers.  This seems to apply to all general groups of people, even within religious groups, though I can't say that definitively as this poll did not cover religious affiliation, only high-level belief and knowledge statements, adding to some confusion when attempting to interpret the data.  (That and it has other defects such as being a self-selecting poll.)

Still, the count is getting up there.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: mram on July 20, 2009, 09:53:09 PM
It's probably a bit late, but can i change my vote? I don't want the little girl in the pink dress as president anymore..
 OK seriously..
I noticed on the site, http://whywontgodhealamputees.com (Remember that one?) there is a section titled, "There are no "atheists"" where it suggest we simply use the term "rational person".
Obviously I'm not rational, but for the purposes of this vote i want to be called a rational person.
I know..I know.. That just about blows your mind and concidering me rational might be a stretch and might even pull a few muscles along the way, but that's what I'm changing my vote to.. <takes a deep breath, puffs out chest> I AM A RATIONAL PERSON!
Do rational people really have to go through all that drama to get someones attention?  :D
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on July 20, 2009, 10:05:49 PM
To change your vote, click on "Remove Vote" to the right hand side of the list of options in the poll.  You should be given a blank set of check boxes to choose from.

That said, there's no option for 'I'm a rational person' since the poll doesn't cover rationality.

If you want to run that poll yourself, go for it.  Expect nearly everyone to pick the same option, though, regardless of how rational they really are.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: mram on July 20, 2009, 10:23:39 PM
I don't wanna go through all that.. geeeez louise.. I just wanna be like all the rest of the kids ma!
Ahm tarred of bein the fat kid momma! (oops...did i say tarred?..scuse me.. I grew up with all them thar bapteests.. I meant tired.)
Actually just pointing out a discrepancy...no offense intended. ;)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: mram on July 20, 2009, 10:32:01 PM
To change your vote, click on "Remove Vote" to the right hand side of the list of options in the poll.  You should be given a blank set of check boxes to choose from.

That said, there's no option for 'I'm a rational person' since the poll doesn't cover rationality.

If you want to run that poll yourself, go for it.  Expect nearly everyone to pick the same option, though, regardless of how rational they really are.
So i could run the poll with two options
A. Rational person or
B. Goof Ball who believes any old crap.
You mean most people will pick.....? Nahhhh.. ;) Just kidding..and wasting time..
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on July 20, 2009, 11:02:30 PM
To change your vote, click on "Remove Vote" to the right hand side of the list of options in the poll.  You should be given a blank set of check boxes to choose from.

That said, there's no option for 'I'm a rational person' since the poll doesn't cover rationality.

If you want to run that poll yourself, go for it.  Expect nearly everyone to pick the same option, though, regardless of how rational they really are.
So i could run the poll with two options
A. Rational person or
B. Goof Ball who believes any old crap.
You mean most people will pick.....? Nahhhh.. ;) Just kidding..and wasting time..

If you want to make it more valuable, you could phrase it like...

"It is better to be ... [ options ]"  --or-- "I prefer ... [options]" and generate the poll based on a list of things that appeal to the true preferences of the audience.  Two quick examples that will get you a variety of replies;

"It is better to follow a moral code."
"It is better to use reason."

If you have enough options, you can allow multiple choices per person.  This way, you will get more people telling you what the top 2 or 3 things are for them and the results may be more interesting.

Also, you could pile them up;

"In the order of importance, it is better to X, Y, and Z.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on July 26, 2009, 01:54:56 PM
Quote
Atheist or agnostic? Both.
http://radicalatheist.com/2009/07/26/atheist-or-agnostic-both/

 July 26th, 2009  Jack Carlson

“Atheism” and “agnosticism” are both poorly understood terms. Gnosticism and agnosticism deal with knowledge. Theism and atheism relate to belief.

Agnosticism, as defined by its creator, Thomas Henry Huxley, is similar to skepticism. It’s a means of examining reality that says, “show me”. Show me the evidence that leads to a certain conclusion, show me the process of getting from point A to point Z that supports the contention that point Z is true. Knowledge should be based on truth and truth claims should be examined skeptically/agnostically to judge their merit.

Atheism is a rejection of the beliefs of those who claim that there are or have been gods. We do not accept the explanations and substantiations offered by believers in support of their beliefs.

I am an agnostic atheist. Agnosticism is the tool I use to examine truth claims and atheism is the conclusion I’ve reached in the matter of belief in gods.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: mram on July 26, 2009, 03:00:49 PM
I think that also qualifies you as rational, but the skinny is I was just wondering. i don't place any credence to polls generally because people lie quite often or just check off whatever might sound funny at the time to them..
Example of that is asking, Is god real..Is god imaginary, Am I imaginary?  A great number will pick I am imaginary just to show their cynical side which really tells us nothing other than a good percentage of people think they're funny.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on July 26, 2009, 03:08:28 PM
I think that also qualifies you as rational, but the skinny is I was just wondering. i don't place any credence to polls generally because people lie quite often or just check off whatever might sound funny at the time to them..

Agreed.  While this is not intended to be accurate or reliable, I did try and draw off some of the votes of people who just want to pick anything by having the fun stuff at the bottom.  (Plus, it is fun to pick some of that nonsense stuff.)

Example of that is asking, Is god real..Is god imaginary, Am I imaginary?  A great number will pick I am imaginary just to show their cynical side which really tells us nothing other than a good percentage of people think they're funny.

In general, I think that of the people who have cast a vote, they provided an accurate answer.  I have no firm evidence of this and admit it is speculation, but a reasonable bit of speculation.  I base this on the numbers being roughly the same the three times I've run it, and any intentional skewing by one or many people will be diluted by the other votes.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: StrawberryJam on August 21, 2009, 06:39:49 PM
This is the third time this poll has been run.  For reference, here are the other ones;

Old WWGHA forum (older version of this poll; comments retained)
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?topic=10315.0 (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?topic=10315.0)

AtheistThinkTank (similar version to the one posted here)  99 votes!
http://www.atheistthinktank.net/thinktank/index.php?topic=1618.0 (http://www.atheistthinktank.net/thinktank/index.php?topic=1618.0)

This poll covers the number of deities (if any) you personally think exist and how strongly you consider that number is valid.  It does not cover how you act, believe, or think toward yourself, others, or the world in general.

Examples;

1. Gnostics and Agnostics

For the purpose of this poll, gnostics claim knowledge and agnostics say knowledge is not possible.  Note that this form of gnosticism is different from the gnostic mystery religions!

Someone who knows for a fact that a god came here in a UFO and is the only god, and someone who knows for a fact that the God of Abraham is the one true and only god would both answer Gnostic Monotheist.  Next year, if both became uncertain -- did not know for a fact -- they would both become Agnostic Monotheists.  In each case, they would not likely share much else.

2. Agnostic theists

Someone who does not claim knowledge in a deity is possible would be an agnostic.  The same person may also be an atheist, or any of the theists (monotheists or deists or ...).  Religious beliefs are not the same as claims to definitive knowledge of the correctness of those beliefs.


Henotheism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheistic

Kama Sutra
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2995/Kama-Sutra-photo-book (http://www.scribd.com/doc/2995/Kama-Sutra-photo-book)


Unable to reply as I am none of the above.

Are you starting up a dossier of sorts?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Azdgari on August 21, 2009, 06:45:21 PM
If you are none of the above, then could you explain how your beliefs differ from the closest thing to them that is listed?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on August 24, 2009, 08:23:48 PM
Unable to reply as I am none of the above.

You mean from the part you quoted, or the available poll options?

I'll guess you mean the poll.  If so ...

* What options do you see are missing?

* Do you have no beliefs about deities existing or not?

* Do you have at the same time no knowledge of one or more deities and also some level of knowledge about one or more deities?

Note that the poll only covers beliefs regardless of knowledge claims and knowledge claims about those beliefs, even if the claims of knowledge are that you have no claims of knowledge in some form.

Are you starting up a dossier of sorts?

Nope.  I don't know for a fact what you chose in the poll, and you don't need to make a comment in this thread or even answer honestly about your choice or choices.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xphobe on August 24, 2009, 10:43:32 PM
Note that the poll only covers beliefs regardless of knowledge claims and knowledge claims about those beliefs, even if the claims of knowledge are that you have no claims of knowledge in some form.

I love this sentence.  Really. ;D
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on August 25, 2009, 06:46:33 AM
Note that the poll only covers beliefs regardless of knowledge claims and knowledge claims about those beliefs, even if the claims of knowledge are that you have no claims of knowledge in some form.

I love this sentence.  Really. ;D

Sometimes I have to edit my prose to prevent poetry.   :P
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: screwtape on August 25, 2009, 07:52:19 AM
Note that the poll only covers beliefs regardless of knowledge claims and knowledge claims about those beliefs, even if the claims of knowledge are that you have no claims of knowledge in some form.

I love this sentence.  Really.

I got a little motion sickness when I read it.

Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on August 25, 2009, 07:58:39 AM
Sorry.  Here's two on me;

(http://www.healthsquare.com/common/images/u/UPJ36420_65766_5.JPG)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Ada-B on September 13, 2009, 09:39:05 AM
I don't think this poll allows for an existentialist position, which is basically the view that the only thing we can be certain of is that we ourselves exist. Everything else could be a delusion, and we have no way of proving either way.

Then there's the nihilist position, which suggests that we can't even know that.

My position is that I have seen no evidence for the existence of God (as defined by Western theists). I see no need for a hypothesis of God in science, and philosophically, the concept of God has so many holes, it is a lot easier just to let go of the concept altogether. However, since I could be completely wrong about the nature of the universe - I could have misinterpreted everything I see, touch, smell and hear around me (I could be sitting in a mental hospital somewhere imagining my entire life) I cannot be 100% certain of anything. Belief in God included.

If I were asked the likelihood of this scenario, however, although I obviously would have absolutely no way of knowing if I am in a mental hospital imagining everything or not, I do take the lack of evidence of this possilibility to indicate that it is of a very low probability indeed. Then again, unlikely things do happen, albeit rarely. Does that make me an agnostic atheist?

Personally, I would probably call myself a sceptic (please note British spelling  ;) - but sceptical as in the sense of regarding everything to have a slight question mark over it, even though, for reasons of practicality, I might behave as if that question mark did not exist. For instance, there is a very remote possibility that my partner has poisoned my tea, but it is sufficiently remote that I will drink the tea without a second's hesitation. It is far more likely that I'd get dehydration from refusing to drink anything in case someone is trying to poison me! You have to be practical about your scepticism!

In the highly unlikely scenario that the Christian God actually exists, he's an absolute bar-steward, and anyone who doesn't agree with me, go to Darfur and stand there and tell me your God can either do nothing, or doesn't want to do anything, while babies die. Logically, either God exists and he isn't the loving God Christians describe (when they're not threatening you with being thrown into hell for not "receiving" his love) or he doesn't exist. Which is basically like saying God doesn't exist twice, since a non-loving God isn't "God" by that definition, but a devil.

For the record, I don't believe in a devil either, or why people need to invent a devil in a world where human beings seem perfectly capable of the most obscene cruelty all on their own.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on September 13, 2009, 10:13:46 AM
Up front: Part of the reason the poll allows multiple options to be chosen is because of the complexity of the individual options it covers.

I don't think this poll allows for an existentialist position, which is basically the view that the only thing we can be certain of is that we ourselves exist. Everything else could be a delusion, and we have no way of proving either way.

First off, the poll doesn't allow for or cover a great many things.  That poll would require a different type of polling software, not these check boxes.  It would be trivial for me to expand this list to about 150 categories, though that would be so awkward as a check list to review that nobody would do it.  The list as it is now is long enough.

Now, to details ...

The existentialist could not choose certainty, thus they could not choose the gnostic position for any knowledge claim -- in this poll or any other.  That leaves many other options;

Agnostic - I do not know for certain.
Ignostic - The concepts are meaningless.
Apnostic - I don't care.

Can you recommend another option that fits this pattern?  Any of these could fit an existentialist, though some people will pick multiple options.

Then there's the nihilist position, which suggests that we can't even know that.

That's a subset of the agnostic position.

My position is that I have seen no evidence for the existence of God (as defined by Western theists). I see no need for a hypothesis of God in science, and philosophically, the concept of God has so many holes, it is a lot easier just to let go of the concept altogether.

Apnostic possibly.

However, since I could be completely wrong about the nature of the universe - I could have misinterpreted everything I see, touch, smell and hear around me (I could be sitting in a mental hospital somewhere imagining my entire life) I cannot be 100% certain of anything. Belief in God included.

Dipping into solipsism.  Insanity and unsocial activities are that direction.

Getting back to the poll, only the gnostic claim certainty.

With that said, and ignoring the solipsistic possibilities, we can say that specifically defined deities are impossible.  For those deities -- including the general description of the Christian deity -- the gnostic position is merited.  Yet, I'm not absolutely certain about other specifically defined deities existing, so to be philosophically correct I also choose the agnostic position though I don't consider those other deities to be likely at all.[1]

The poll allows multiple options to be chosen partially for this reason.

If I were asked the likelihood of this scenario, however, although I obviously would have absolutely no way of knowing if I am in a mental hospital imagining everything or not, I do take the lack of evidence of this possilibility to indicate that it is of a very low probability indeed. Then again, unlikely things do happen, albeit rarely. Does that make me an agnostic atheist?

Yes, and/or one of the other options but not the gnostic one.

Personally, I would probably call myself a sceptic (please note British spelling  ;) - but sceptical as in the sense of regarding everything to have a slight question mark over it, even though, for reasons of practicality, I might behave as if that question mark did not exist. For instance, there is a very remote possibility that my partner has poisoned my tea, but it is sufficiently remote that I will drink the tea without a second's hesitation. It is far more likely that I'd get dehydration from refusing to drink anything in case someone is trying to poison me! You have to be practical about your scepticism!

I'm similar, though on that thought I have no problem with claiming certainty because I have no problem with making the assumption I'm not a brain in a vat.  I could be, but if I were all bets are off -- so I can discard that idea.

In the highly unlikely scenario that the Christian God actually exists, he's an absolute bar-steward, and anyone who doesn't agree with me, go to Darfur and stand there and tell me your God can either do nothing, or doesn't want to do anything, while babies die. Logically, either God exists and he isn't the loving God Christians describe (when they're not threatening you with being thrown into hell for not "receiving" his love) or he doesn't exist. Which is basically like saying God doesn't exist twice, since a non-loving God isn't "God" by that definition, but a devil.

For the record, I don't believe in a devil either, or why people need to invent a devil in a world where human beings seem perfectly capable of the most obscene cruelty all on their own.

As a discussion topic, I'd take those assumptions.  Yet, they aren't convincing; the common conception of the Christian deity does not exist.  It could be understood and reported by Christians, but at that point the question is what they actually are worshiping.
 1. A Nessie, a Bigfoot, a Yettie being major active stock holders in thousands of companies is more likely.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on October 08, 2009, 07:03:55 PM
Penn Says: Agnostic vs. Atheist
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAF2NuAI9EU[/youtube]
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Agamemnon on October 08, 2009, 07:24:03 PM
^^Awesome.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Graybeard on October 15, 2009, 02:12:45 PM
Wow that poll has alot of choices... Admittedly I had no idea people even called themselves most of those things much less had an exact onhand definition for it. Personally I've never had much of a penchant for labeling everything, to each his own though.

This is actually the abbreviated version, tweaked after running the poll twice before, and looking at the results and comments.  On my own, I could easily justify expanding the list 2-4x what it is now.  On top of that, many people have asked to have additions to the list that would have brought the possible choices well past 100 items.  [...]

It appears there are as many gods as people. Not so strange, as people base their idea of god on their idea of themselves that they too may be as gods.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: GetMeThere on October 15, 2009, 03:48:38 PM
I selected "agnostic atheist," but I have a somewhat open mind about the (at least) possible human validity of "mystical experiences." However, I have fairly substantial doubts that so-called mystical experiences demonstrate the existence of any objective reality OUTSIDE the experiencer's head--even if they give meaning to an individual's life, or to human life in general.

I'm not completely antagonistic to the "everything is a god" choice, either. That perspective is no different (really) from "there are no gods, nothing is a god," except it implies that life and the universe are profoundly meaningful; I think they are.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Jim on October 25, 2009, 03:17:09 PM
Gnostic Atheist -- the evidence shows that there are no gods.  Therefore, I know that there are no gods.  (If the gods ever decide to show themselves, I may restate my position, I'm not that proud.)

Ipgnostic Atheist -- The concepts of gods are meaningless, couldn't agree more.

and... So! Many! Choices!
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Mr. Philpotz on October 27, 2009, 10:47:15 PM
Who coined the term atheist? Was it St. Augustine? Just curious.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on October 27, 2009, 10:50:10 PM
Who coined the term atheist? Was it St. Augustine? Just curious.

It follows from theist like other compound words with the prefix 'a'.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xphobe on October 28, 2009, 12:18:01 AM
Who coined the term atheist? Was it St. Augustine? Just curious.

Quote
The Greek word "atheoi" ("[those who are] without god") as it appears in the Epistle to the Ephesians 2:12, on the early 3rd-century Papyrus 46. This word - in any of its forms - appears nowhere else in the New Testament or the Koine Greek version of the Old Testament.
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ephesians_2,12_-_Greek_atheos.jpg)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on October 28, 2009, 01:02:57 AM
So, prior to the writing of Ephesians 2:12, the word atheoi was in use in Greece at a minimum.  That makes sense since people have been accused and persecuted in Greece for being atheists.  It was one of the charges against Socrates (~469-399 BCE);[1]

Quote
Then, by the gods, Meletus, of whom we are speaking, tell me and the court, in somewhat plainer terms, what you mean! for I do not as yet understand whether you affirm that I teach others to acknowledge some gods, and therefore do believe in gods and am not an entire atheist - this you do not lay to my charge; but only that they are not the same gods which the city recognizes - the charge is that they are different gods. Or, do you mean to say that I am an atheist simply, and a teacher of atheism?

I mean the latter - that you are a complete atheist.

That is an extraordinary statement, Meletus. Why do you say that? Do you mean that I do not believe in the godhead of the sun or moon, which is the common creed of all men?

I assure you, judges, that he does not believe in them; for he says that the sun is stone, and the moon earth.

Common creed indeed.  It could be said that such things were 'written on the human heart'.  I wouldn't, but some people who visit these forums make similar statements frequently.
 1. According to Plato's account in the Apology.  Source: http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/apology.html
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Mr. Philpotz on October 28, 2009, 04:17:48 PM
Who coined the term atheist? Was it St. Augustine? Just curious.

It follows from theist like other compound words with the prefix 'a'.

I know, but who coined the term?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on October 28, 2009, 06:11:31 PM
Who coined the term atheist? Was it St. Augustine? Just curious.

It follows from theist like other compound words with the prefix 'a'.

I know, but who coined the term?

The oldest English reference I have to either theist/theism or atheist/atheism is 1571, though that's just what I have at hand.  Before that there's the Greek language reference from the trial of Socrates that was already mentioned (470 BCE).  I would expect that both ideas would go back towards the earliest written texts, but I don't have evidence of that currently.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Azdgari on October 28, 2009, 06:39:28 PM
The Greeks, apparently.  The "a-" prefix and "-theos" suffix are both Greek.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on October 28, 2009, 08:37:49 PM
Agreed, though the ideas probably pre-date the formal ancient Greek city states.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Lord Gekko on October 28, 2009, 08:43:03 PM
To fully answer this I must start a new thread.I just might too. :)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: basketcase on October 28, 2009, 08:43:43 PM
I didn't vote, but I suppose I'm a panentheist. However, I don't fit the definition entirely. I came across a website that described the term (which I don't have, I'd like to track it down) and I disagreed with some of the definition. They should invent a new term for me.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on October 28, 2009, 08:57:18 PM
The definitions are known to be incomplete, but they are the ones used in this specific poll because they are useful enough to cover what nearly everyone means.

If you ignore the title, but agree with the text of any one item, that's what is important.  Many people choose multiple items because they know that one label does not satisfy all or sometimes even most situations.  I voted both;

agnostic atheist - I do not know for certain, but I think there are no gods.
ignostic atheist - While the concepts of god(s) are meaningless, it is likely that there are no gods.

Yet, I could have added gnostic atheist to cover specific deities that I am confident do not exist.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: basketcase on October 28, 2009, 09:03:28 PM
That reminds me, gnostic. Since, if we're all honest, we can't really be gnostic as we're all subjective, what should gnostic mean?

- I'm so convinced that I totally feel that I know. I can't explain it but I just know. It's as clear to me as the sky outside my window (like me), what some would call "knowing"
- I have absolute evidence
- I don't actually know, but I'm 99.999% certain
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on October 28, 2009, 09:15:57 PM
That reminds me, gnostic. Since, if we're all honest, we can't really be gnostic as we're all subjective, what should gnostic mean?

- I'm so convinced that I totally feel that I know. I can't explain it but I just know. It's as clear to me as the sky outside my window (like me), what some would call "knowing"
- I have absolute evidence
- I don't actually know, but I'm 99.999% certain

That's a topic that has been handled in multiple locations in this thread.

Like all votes in this poll, I leave what someone thinks to themselves, but my expectation is that if they choose any one option they generally agree with the text associated with the title.  In the case of gnostics, the key part is "I know for certain".  They are not asked to justify that, only if they choose one of the gnostic options that they personally "know for certain".  As I mentioned in my other comment, anyone who answers "gnostic"[1] for one option may choose other non-gnostic options[2] as appropriate.

To drive this home;

     I'm an agnostic atheist irt. deities in general.  For me, this is philosophically correct.

     I'm a gnostic atheist irt. specific deities such as Yahweh.  For me, I see no reason to deny the evidence.

     I'm an ignostic atheist atheist irt. the meaningfulness of deity concepts.  For practical reasons and through experience.


Related;

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=833.msg122836#msg122836

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=833.msg75412#msg75412
 1. Or any other option.
 2. Or any other gnostic option.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Azdgari on October 28, 2009, 09:18:26 PM
I'll add on this:

To the extent that one can honestly say that one is "gnostic" about the computer sitting in front of one's eyes, one can claim a gnostic position about something else of which one has direct physical evidence.

To deny this is to retreat into solipsism; it's not useful.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: basketcase on October 28, 2009, 09:19:45 PM
That's fair enough, Hermes.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xphobe on October 28, 2009, 11:08:25 PM
To deny this is to retreat into solipsism; it's not useful.

Not to mention nonsensical, because if one denies knowledge of anything, he must therefore also be denying knowledge of logic, the act of denying, and all the rest of his own thought processes, so his very attempt at justifying his position is stillborn.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: basketcase on October 29, 2009, 07:29:48 AM
I'd say that where you draw the line is determined by your personal philosophy.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Azdgari on October 29, 2009, 07:34:18 AM
That's awfully vague.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on December 01, 2009, 10:32:43 AM
Quote
Atheism described with Venn diagrams

(http://religiouscartoons.net/albums/userpics/venn.png)

Circles not shown to scale.
Being sure there is no God(s) is a proper subset of atheism.
One cannot hate God(s) and also be an atheist.
There are atheists that neither hate religion nor are sure that there is/are no God(s).

Source: http://religiouscomics.net/?p=192 (http://religiouscomics.net/?p=192)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Levan on December 12, 2009, 06:53:24 AM
What if we believe that there may be a god, we don't necessarily believe/don't know if it started the universe? What would that be?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on December 12, 2009, 09:20:45 AM
What if we believe that there may be a god, we don't necessarily believe/don't know if it started the universe? What would that be?

Well, this thread doesn't deal with what if anything the person thinks or believes the deities (if any) do.

It's not necessary, in this case, that the deity do anything specifically.  You could even say that the deity does nothing -- but then why say it's a god?  For the purpose of this poll, no answer or justification is required.

This poll covers only;

1. Knowledge claim (if any) about the set of deities actually existing or not.

2. Belief statement on the type of deities (if any).

So ...

* 'may be' ~ agnostic, ignostic, and/or apnostic.

* 'a god' ~ A number or type; monotheist, polytheist, deist, pantheist, henotheist, or non-theist (atheist).

Look at the other examples in the first post for some details.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Levan on December 12, 2009, 04:47:16 PM
apnostic deist - I don't care if there are any gods, but I guess there is a god that started the universe but does not actively meddle with it or us.

I was just confused on that little part.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: GetMeThere on December 12, 2009, 04:55:18 PM
apnostic deist - I don't care if there are any gods, but I guess there is a god that started the universe but does not actively meddle with it or us.

I was just confused on that little part.

I won't fill up the thread with discussion--just this one post, I promise (because I see that Levan is straightforward in giving answers):
I assume your reason for "guessing" that there is a god that started the universe is something about the universe that you see to be "coherent." Certainly then, the deity that created it is also coherent--so how do you escape the problem of another deity needed to create your deity...and so on?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Levan on December 12, 2009, 05:07:46 PM
No. I don't necessarily believe that it started the universe. That's why I was confused.

I don't know what it is, or whether to call it a deity or not. I don't know whether we would call it a deity if we saw it, or simply call it an incredibly intelligent, powerful being.

That was the reason for my topic "What can we define as 'god'?".

If I'm not supposed to be starting a discussion, sorry. Please PM me instead if we shouldn't be discussing this here...
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on December 12, 2009, 11:50:44 PM
I don't know what it is, or whether to call it a deity or not. I don't know whether we would call it a deity if we saw it, or simply call it an incredibly intelligent, powerful being.

That was the reason for my topic "What can we define as 'god'?".

Part of the reason why I structured this poll as "knowledge+belief" and kept both as generic as possible is that it's nearly impossible to get anyone to define what the following statement means;

"god exists"

The word "god" is a category of a thing and/or an entity.  There may be 1 thing and/or entity in that group or there may be more.  Part of the definition of a thing and/or entity is that it "exists" in a specific way or set of ways.

If I'm not supposed to be starting a discussion, sorry. Please PM me instead if we shouldn't be discussing this here...

A post or two here is OK, but as you can see from the above it gets complex very fast and is rarely ever addressed properly.  If you want to really dip deep into this, let me know and I might lend a hand (currently pressed for time and fighting a cold).

More;

For Christians: What does "exists" mean to you in the phrase "God exists"?
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=2400.0 (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=2400.0)

Video that spawned the above thread;

God Exists! - The Atheist Experience (1/2)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaUtzhdlFto&fmt=18[/youtube]

God Exists! - The Atheist Experience (2/2)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpE91tpkmnc&fmt=18[/youtube]

Tracie Harris nails it.  One of my favorites on the show;

The Atheist Experience (TV show)
http://www.atheist-experience.com (http://www.atheist-experience.com)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: ReasonIsOutToLunch on December 16, 2009, 10:31:24 PM
I don't know and I don't care. I think that makes me an apnostic agnostic or something. But, then I don't care. For practical purposes I am an atheist(I don't not believe, nor do I believe), because I know the question of gods is irrelavant. We don't care if there is a god or not. What we care about is whether or not we continue to exist after we die. So on the god question there are a few possiblities.

1) There is a creator(not bible god) but when we die we are dead.

2) There is no creator but when we die we continue to exist (not live for that has requirements that can only exist in a physical body).

3). There is a creator and when we die we contine to exist.

4.) There is no creator and when we die we are dead.

Really that is what people would like to know and we do not have the ability to talk to people after they die and ask them if they are dead dead or have become part of the collective universe or whatever. What we do have is the ability to use science to determine if say a flood happened (it didn't), if a shroud came from 2000 years ago or 500 years ago, and through linguistics we can determin if people ever all spoke the same language in one area then all the sudden completely different languages emerged( didn't happen). So in some areas I am agnostic, some apathetic, some gnostic, and some areas you can't tell me from a atheist. I think I like the term anti-theist though. I seriously don't like the idea of theist labeling me as an atheist as if I can be defined through a lack of some quality they think they possess, but I do not.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on December 16, 2009, 11:28:39 PM
I don't know and I don't care. I think that makes me an apnostic agnostic or something. But, then I don't care. For practical purposes I am an atheist(I don't not believe, nor do I believe), because I know the question of gods is irrelavant. We don't care if there is a god or not.

Sounds like you're an apnostic atheist, though you don't need to care about any of that.   ;D

On the next part, I've done some strike outs...

What we care about is whether or not we continue to exist after we die. So on the god question there are a few possiblities.

1) There is a creator(not bible god) but when we die we are dead.

2) There is no creator but when we die we continue to exist (not live for that has requirements that can only exist in a physical body).

3). There is a creator and when we die we contine to exist.

4.) There is no creator and when we die we are dead.

Summary: There is no positive evidence for an incorporeal mind or soul.  As such, #2 & #3 are out of the running. 

Details are available here;

No souls, no way to get to an afterlife
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?&topic=6546.0 (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?&topic=6546.0)

Really that is what people would like to know and we do not have the ability to talk to people after they die and ask them if they are dead dead or have become part of the collective universe or whatever.

No need.  We might develop some recording mechanism for neural states and have those states retained and perpetuated, but, that would be a digital corpus not an incorporeal one.

What we do have is the ability to use science to determine if say a flood happened (it didn't), if a shroud came from 2000 years ago or 500 years ago, and through linguistics we can determin if people ever all spoke the same language in one area then all the sudden completely different languages emerged( didn't happen). So in some areas I am agnostic, some apathetic, some gnostic, and some areas you can't tell me from a atheist. I think I like the term anti-theist though. I seriously don't like the idea of theist labeling me as an atheist as if I can be defined through a lack of some quality they think they possess, but I do not.

Well said.  I have no arguments with it, though personally I embrace the word atheist because the bigots will pick on anyone who don't agree with them regardless of the title.  If they insist on showing their own ignorance on what the word means simply -- not a theist and not a bit more -- then there's nothing I could do about that dogmatic bias.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: ReasonIsOutToLunch on December 17, 2009, 02:57:25 AM
Hermes, I think I probably just like the anti part because it is a declaration of being against something rather than just being a non something. I am against theism at least christian theism. I could be persuaded perhaps that most religions are benign and harmless, but not two of the big three. Christianity and Islam are a cancer.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on December 19, 2009, 01:47:50 PM
From another thread, a good reference on agnosticism from a Christian source;

In seemingly unteachable cases like Majesty i prefer to cite sources that they might believe. I give you  the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/):

Quote
[...]

(7) Recent Agnosticism is also to a great extent anti-religious, criticizing adversely not only the knowledge we have of God, but the grounds of belief in Him as well. A combination of Agnosticism with Atheism, rather than with sentimental irrational belief, is the course adopted by many. The idea of God is eliminated both from the systematic and personal view which is taken of the world and of life. The attitude of "solemnly suspended judgment" shades off first into indifference towards religion, as an inscrutable affair at best, and next into disbelief. The Agnostic does not always merely abstain from either affirming or denying the existence of God, but crosses over to the old position of theoretic Atheism and, on the plea of insufficient evidence, ceases even to believe that God exists. While, therefore, not to be identified with Atheism, Agnosticism is often found in combination with it. (See ATHEISM.)

[...]
(from the article "Agnosticism" (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01215c.htm), emphasis mine, all links removed from original)

Note that there are different definitions of agnosticism, but the one used by members of this forum is by no means off or wrong. It is an accepted definition which becomes highly relevant in combination with the atheism.

Note: I disagree with the capitalization used in the above reference.  The agnostics (knowledge claim) as with the atheists (belief) and theists (belief) are not a narrowly defined groups, but wide categories that can apply to subgroups in part or in whole -- but are not required to.  Those narrowly defined subgroups can be capitalized, such as is the case with specific religious groups of theists like Christians (Catholics, Baptists, ...) Hindus, or Muslims (Sunnis, Shi'a, ...).
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Whateverman on December 27, 2009, 02:47:40 PM
This is the first poll I've seen where my position was clearly listed as an option (agnostic deist)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: rod lebowski on December 27, 2009, 09:53:20 PM
So apparently I'm an "ignostic atheist."

I never knew that.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Matthew 10:10 on January 04, 2010, 10:35:09 PM
I embrace Secular Energeticism, ever so simply.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: xphobe on January 04, 2010, 11:33:45 PM
I embrace Secular Energeticism, ever so simply.

What's that?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on January 05, 2010, 03:03:00 AM
QFT ...

Well I hope the mods don't mind but salvaged this from one of the ongoing spam attacks.  Ironically [1] it makes me very proud to be an atheist and offers some good discussion/advice on how to conduct oneself appropriately as an atheist in society in different circumstances:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilWM7jIEN_k[/youtube]

 1. the spammer probably hasn't listened to it properly
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: sweetpea on January 05, 2010, 04:24:28 AM
I guess I'm ignostic pantheist, but thats because I have a theory about energy, multiple dimensions, ect..
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Dragnet on January 05, 2010, 06:47:35 AM
It would be interesting to see a progression of change.

I was once a gnostic monotheist and went through a couple of agnostic phases went back to gnostic theism and round a couple of times.

Now I am considering another change. I think that I must remain non-theist but I am beginning to think I want to put a positive expression on it.

I am growing apathetic to most theistic claims unless they are directly trying to influence the politics of my country.

I have been saying that I am agnostic atheist and it sounds a little passive. I think I would like to be more positive in my atheist position but until I have ALL knowledge how can I be gnostic. Do I understand gnostic in the right way?

To pay a small homage to Julia Sweeney I am beginning to think that most people in religions are a-naturists or a-rationalists.
To pay another homage to my brother.

I think I am finally 100% superstition free.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Hermes on January 05, 2010, 09:04:44 AM
Good points.  One thing that I think gets neglected by theists and non-theists/atheists alike is the variety of both.  To cover just one issue, there are religious non-theists[1] as well as a-religious theists.[2]

I don't think in this poll there is a place for a philosophy or a religion, but that's one thing that people tend to emphasize when they talk about their working ideas about life, not so much their theistic/superstitious leanings (if any).
 1. Examples: 1/2 the Buddhists, as well as (I suspect) a very large percentage of cultural religious people who have no theistic beliefs.
 2. Examples: Most (?) deists and pantheists.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Banksie on January 14, 2010, 09:57:33 AM
Missionary.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: RaymondKHessel on January 27, 2010, 02:20:09 PM
Oh, snap!  :D
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Graybeard on February 15, 2010, 01:26:41 PM
The poll could be reduced to the numbers 0 to 10 and one question:

“How likely, on a scale of 0 to 10, do you think it is that, in a vast universe billions of light years across, there is some mysterious, invisible and indefinable power that actually has an interest in tiny people on a tiny planet circling an average star in a galaxy that has no real distinguishing features?”

My answer? 0
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Positiveaob on February 15, 2010, 01:45:12 PM
Missionary.

I was gonna say that, but I just assumed that somebody in the previous 10 pages had already said it.  Just too easy.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Gaston on February 18, 2010, 01:22:06 PM
I think my progression has been as follows:


Before I understood the concept of God:

ignostic atheist

When I learned about Jesus:

Agnostic Polytheist (I had room for other Gods in my belief, and disagreed with the bible on several points, but still called myself christian.)

When I realized why the tag christian was meaningless to apply to me:

apnostic pantheist
apnostic deist
I am God

Though, in general I'm agnostic to the whole issue (in that I don't know, and I don't think we can ever know if there is such a thing as God.)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on February 22, 2010, 12:22:26 PM
I think I would like to become an IDC-Atheist. IDC standing for "I don't care".

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: xphobe on February 23, 2010, 06:35:54 AM
Though, in general I'm agnostic to the whole issue (in that I don't know, and I don't think we can ever know if there is such a thing as God.)

A Christian can be agnostic.

The Bible appears to hold a special place in your worldview, quite unlike any other piece of literature.  How does that fit in with your deism/pantheism?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Gaston on February 23, 2010, 08:10:54 AM
A Christian can be agnostic.
Sure, but I'm not Christian...

The Bible appears to hold a special place in your worldview, quite unlike any other piece of literature.  How does that fit in with your deism/pantheism?
Some things in the Bible fits with my beliefs and worldview, and some don't. And it doesn't hold a that special place to be fair. Say, Kafka has influenced me at least as much as the Bible has. However, on this forum, the Bible tends to be more discussed than any other piece of literature, so I stick with the theme...
Title: I am an anti-theists... where are the rest of you?
Post by: Thought Provoker on February 24, 2010, 12:39:35 PM
I am an atheist that goes one step further. I feel that the belief in "GOD" is actually hurting our civilization. It keeps us from taking credit for all the amazing things WE have discovered and WE have invented. A world without gods would be a world where sick only get healed if WE do it and the hungry only get fed when WE feed them. We could all stop relying on prayer and take action!

How long do you think it will be before we study Christianity in mythology classes just like former Roman and Greek Gods?

Religion will never go extinct as long as people still fear death... and I do believe that fear holds a permanent place in the human psyche!
Title: Re: I am an anti-theists... where are the rest of you?
Post by: subako on March 02, 2010, 12:44:11 AM
A world without gods would be a world where sick only get healed if WE do it and the hungry only get fed when WE feed them.
[...]
How long do you think it will be before we study Christianity in mythology classes just like former Roman and Greek Gods?

1) How is this different from our current situation?  ;D

2) Given the present condition of theism, and the number of adherents it has, quite some time yet.


I have this very inconvenient assertion that there is no such thing as Christianity left.

When Theodosius I made "Christianity" (Nicene Trinitarianism) into the state religion of the Roman Empire, it was already something
that Paul would not have recognized. Poor Paul, who was running back and forth between all the churches and frantically sending
epistles to try and prevent his precious seedling from growing into something he has not intended. He had one thing in mind,
while various congregations had other ideas. This is what happens when one can talk to God directly and without the need of
a command structure. Personal relationship with God doth lead to heterogeneity of belief! Ooops!  :D

In my opinion, what resulted was a syncretic religion with elements of polytheism and Christianity. The Protestant reform was a reactionary
movement within one splinter of that religion during Renaissance, trying to rid itself of "pagan" influences (not to mention centrist political control).

How successful that project was, can be discussed elsewhere; however the end product still isn't what was envisioned by Paul in the first place.

Yeah, I'm rather ignoring all the other apostles. Without Paul, we would not have to deal with this whole mess.  :P

<S>






Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: blahsphemer on April 08, 2010, 05:32:45 PM
you forgot this one in reply to any theist\deist
I do not know for certain, but I do know your god does exist.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Jake on April 08, 2010, 05:43:20 PM
Agnostic atheist = me.   

I can't profess in good conscience to know what I cannot know, and I cannot at this time declare any true or factual knowledge of anything divine.  So, 'I don't know' is the only intellectually honest answer I can give to such things' existence.   Consequently, I have no belief in any such things, and intuit no logical or viable reason out of any available knowledge to which I am privy to take up with any beliefs thereof.





Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Jessie on April 09, 2010, 05:45:50 PM
I'm an agnostic atheist, though I prefer to just refer to myself as an atheist. I tend to agree with what Matt Dillahunty said on The Atheist Experience about all these different terms kind of cluttering up the issue, so I just prefer to say I'm an atheist and leave it at that.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Sashka on April 10, 2010, 10:21:58 AM
^ Yup...
I do find deism very interesting though, I would like to have a conversation with a deist...
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Truthinlife on April 29, 2010, 01:42:18 AM
God exists............They found Noahs Ark. It has been carbon dated 4800 years old. Why do you doubt ? You never doubt science. When religion can be shown to be true. You think its a lie. Very one sided .
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Azdgari on April 29, 2010, 02:17:18 AM
Welcome to the forum, Truthinlife.  Is this your first time on an online forum?  If so, then as friendly advise, I suggest you post things in threads in which those things are on-topic, rather than posting things in threads where those things are not on-topic.

Do you understand the concepts of "topic" and "thread"?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on April 29, 2010, 09:13:47 AM
Welcome to the forum, Truthinlife.  Is this your first time on an online forum?  If so, then as friendly advise, I suggest you post things in threads in which those things are on-topic, rather than posting things in threads where those things are not on-topic.

Do you understand the concepts of "topic" and "thread"?

But, I want to respond to that. I have a great sarcastic comment all ready. Man!!!! (whines in corner)

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Azdgari on April 29, 2010, 09:50:46 AM
You can still post it, eh?  ;D
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on April 29, 2010, 10:00:40 AM
You can still post it, eh?  ;D

I'm trying not to break any rules. Not easy, though since technically I'm breaking one now.

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Azdgari on April 29, 2010, 10:06:55 AM
Well, for our friend's convenience, here's a link to a thread in which the supposed "Noah's Ark" find is being discussed:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=14003.0
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on May 28, 2010, 02:57:43 PM
After careful reflection I most closely identify with agnostic deist. The interesting thing for me personally is that I was using for a tag line the exact same wording for agnostic pantheist - I do not know for certain, but I think that everything is god.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Sashka on June 02, 2010, 09:46:00 AM
After careful reflection I most closely identify with agnostic deist. The interesting thing for me personally is that I was using for a tag line the exact same wording for agnostic pantheist - I do not know for certain, but I think that everything is god.
?  :?  ;D[1]
 1. Laughs hysterically
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Azdgari on June 02, 2010, 11:05:16 AM
What is hysterical about that?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Thought Provoker on June 02, 2010, 11:07:18 AM
I am talking to Jaybwell via personal messages. He isn't stupid. Just on the fence. The line may seem funny to you... but to me, I remember saying that 10 years ago before I could fully embrace Atheism. Be polite.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Sashka on June 02, 2010, 11:49:17 AM
I admit TP, you are right, and I apologize, I would like to hear from Jaybwell about the subject, though.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Banksie on June 04, 2010, 07:44:42 AM
Missionary.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: screwtape on June 04, 2010, 08:59:33 AM
Missionary.


From January:
Missionary.

Did we really need two helpings of "not funny"?

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Banksie on June 04, 2010, 09:04:48 AM
^^^ Ouch, busted!  You are GOOD.  I'd completely forgotten about the first one...my memory is not what it once was.  Hmmm...awkward....
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: xphobe on June 04, 2010, 10:40:39 PM
So... after ten pages, "agnostic atheist" has a clear lead, almost double the runner-up "gnostic atheist", with "ignostic atheist" running a close third.

The ignostic atheist concept puzzles me.  How can someone say that the concept of X is meaningless, yet at the same time assert anything about it - for example that it is likely there are no Xs?  Doesn't denying the existence of X imply that the concept of X has meaning for the person denying it?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Azdgari on June 05, 2010, 12:00:29 AM
Do you have a belief in the existence of things whose idea you find to be incoherent?  ;)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Standancer on June 06, 2010, 08:21:46 AM
This is my first time posting to this forum, but the poll reminded me of one of my favorite bumper stickers:  I'm a MILITANT AGNOTIC: I Don't Know ... AND YOU DON'T EITHER!! That pretty much sums up my religious position, or lack thereof.  Glad to be a part of this, I've enjoyed the main site for some time and have enjoyed the forum.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Operator_016 on June 06, 2010, 02:47:18 PM
Welcome, standancer!

Unfortunately the poll itself contributes somewhat to the terminology confusion.  Screwtape is correct that your bumper sticker example more accurately reflects the agnostic position, since it implies that you know that another cannot know, which is the essence of agnosticism.  However the poll uses the term agnostic in a more popular, if inaccurate, sense of "not being sure".

Enjoy your stay here.  Make yourself at home.  There's a beer in the fridge.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Dragnet on June 06, 2010, 06:58:21 PM
Enjoy your stay here.  Make yourself at home.  There's a beer in the fridge.

I went to the fridge, NO BEER! Damn it, which one of you baby eaters drank the last beer?!!!


 :D
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Graybeard on June 08, 2010, 07:15:33 AM
Uh... that'd be me, I looked at it and it seemed to be going off, so I drank it to stop anyone being ill.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Banksie on June 08, 2010, 10:59:01 AM
^^^ A noble sacrifice.  Well played, Sirrah.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Operator_011 on June 12, 2010, 04:49:16 AM
The discussion on agnostic Christians between Foi, Azdgari, xphobe, Graybeard and screwtape has been split-off and merged with the Agnostic Theism (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=14222.msg322884#msg322884) thread.


Eleven.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Knight57 on June 16, 2010, 10:31:12 PM
Agnostic atheist. I don't know for sure but I think there is no god. I am open to belief if evidence presents, which there is none.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on June 18, 2010, 03:02:16 PM
I wish I could change my vote. I no longer feel I'm an Ignostic who leans Atheist, I just feel, for the time being, that my mindset leans Ignostic.

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Operator_016 on June 18, 2010, 04:55:10 PM
^Now you can.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Simple_Oddness on June 20, 2010, 02:28:04 PM
I personally hope that everyone is honest about this. But what I find funny is, 150 years ago, there were more Christians than Atheists, now, today, the tables have switched. I'm so happy many of my ancestors didn't die in vain after all  :D
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on June 20, 2010, 02:36:09 PM
^Now you can.

Remove my vote: yes (which I did). Change my vote: no. But thanks for the former.

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Operator_011 on June 20, 2010, 03:31:41 PM
daywalker1966,


If you're looking for your post it's been split-off into own thread as it was off-topic for this thread.

You can find it Here (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=14692.msg325383#msg325383).

I've also split-off the replies to that post.



Eleven.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Azdgari on June 20, 2010, 07:09:05 PM
I personally hope that everyone is honest about this. But what I find funny is, 150 years ago, there were more Christians than Atheists, now, today, the tables have switched. I'm so happy many of my ancestors didn't die in vain after all  :D

There are more atheists than Christians now?  Sha-wah?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on June 21, 2010, 06:25:42 PM
There are more atheists than Christians now?  Sha-wah?

Well, I guess that would depend on the Christian, right?  I mean most of the Protestant Christians I know find that Catholics are not at all Christian[1] and therefore what the person above states would be true but then again...

-Nam
 1. yet, one should note that they do count them in times of comparison to other religions/non-religions etc.,
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Deus ex Machina on June 23, 2010, 01:37:46 PM
So... after ten pages, "agnostic atheist" has a clear lead, almost double the runner-up "gnostic atheist", with "ignostic atheist" running a close third.

The ignostic atheist concept puzzles me.  How can someone say that the concept of X is meaningless, yet at the same time assert anything about it - for example that it is likely there are no Xs?  Doesn't denying the existence of X imply that the concept of X has meaning for the person denying it?

I didn't select that option myself - I selected 'agnostic atheist' - but with regard to ignostic atheism, I made some attempt to explain my view of ignosticism in my testimonial (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=3473.0). It's probably tautological; if the concept of X is incoherent or meaningless, it's hard to envisage a scenario in which X could actually exist in reality. As such, I find the other options under the heading of 'ignostic' somewhat baffling.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Standancer on July 04, 2010, 06:40:49 PM
Welcome, standancer!

Screwtape is correct that your bumper sticker example more accurately reflects the agnostic position, since it implies that you know that another cannot know, which is the essence of agnosticism.

Enjoy your stay here.  Make yourself at home.  There's a beer in the fridge.


Thanks for the welcome, and I must agree that it is most likely the Agnostic category that I fit in.  I must apologize that I haven't posted since this one, I get overwhelmed by the sheer volume and intensity of the arguments, plus I lead a very busy life, so little time for all of this, but I do enjoy what I have time to read.  I caught part of a thread, and sorry, but I don't recall the poster or even the topic, but it was a long thread from a believer that was finally convinced of the incorrectness of their beliefs.  I must say I spend very little time trying to convince someone who is a believer, as I've usually found it to be a waste of time, so I was glad to see that rational arguments were at least able to convince this one poster.  It would seem to me that any believer that comes here honestly, i.e. not intent on preaching, must have some doubts about their beliefs or they would not end up on this forum.

Thanks for the welcome, but DAMN!! somebody must have drank the last beer!!! So it goes, I'll be happy to make myself at home on my rare visits.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: bruckner on July 04, 2010, 07:03:07 PM
Hi
 i recall when i was in my early years about 11, 12, 13 or so i went through a short period where i 'believed' in God, however i also at that time tended to believe in 'God was an astronaut' loch ness monsters and what might now be desribed as 'woo' thinking.
however i grew up and started to think for myself!

 My 'position' thus is very simple really, there is simply not one atom of any evidence for the existence of any God or accompanying supernatural event, (nor for that matter is there one atom of evidence that anyone other than Lee harvey Osward shot Jfk!)

 a religious person would say to me so if there is no God what is the purpose of life?
there is only one purpose, at a cellular level the will to survive and procreate. However our great intelligence and self awareness (imv a by product of evolution) has led us to be able to create our own reasons and purpose for existence.

So we can attempt to create a fine 'human' world where we can share resources, be 'kind' and basically look out for each other. So far we have not succeded in that. Despite the tremendous growth in human knowledge since the enlightenment, we have due to humanities continued love affair with imaginary friends, woo woo beliefs and general magical thinking, have not achieved a rational, humanist world. We must not give in though, hopefully one day humanity as a whole will 'mature' and give up the preposterous old beliefs handed down from some crazy old desert tribes.
Till then the fight goes on

Cheers
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: myriadsofdreams on July 06, 2010, 04:55:33 PM
I'm an Agnostic Atheist.

It's interesting to note a lot of us are the same way.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Killa on July 06, 2010, 04:58:25 PM
I'm having trouble figuring out what i am although i chose a BUNCH of viewpoints here that relate to me, but i entirely dont fit in one term LOL.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: myriadsofdreams on July 06, 2010, 05:03:40 PM
Yeah I sort of agree, I'm pretty much undecided. But Agnostic is definitely the best choice that relates to me.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Mike_Bson on July 06, 2010, 05:58:42 PM
I'm am a gnostic atheist.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Witch on July 07, 2010, 11:20:35 PM
Howdy folks.

Hi Azdgari.

Turns out I'm not the only Gnostic Polytheist here.

Right!

All those with more Gods than seeds in a dill pickle take one step forward.....
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: wright on July 08, 2010, 07:07:48 PM
Agnostic atheist. I can't definitely rule out the chance that evidence pointing to the existence of god/s will be discovered. But up to now, AFAIK, that hasn't happened. Therefore, not believing in them is a reasonable position.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Operator_011 on July 08, 2010, 08:39:53 PM
Right, after being too hasty with the buttons and cocking up the whole process, I've split many off-topic posts / replies to their own thread which you will find here (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=14917.msg330712#msg330712).

Please, if you're going to come into this thread then post on-topic material or start your own thread. This thread is not asking people what you think about god or anything else, but what your religious position is.

Thanks.


Eleven.

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: anothen on July 09, 2010, 07:20:00 AM
I can't answer any of these questions. One thing I always ask people on religious forums is what is God (deity). The logic behind this is simple: essence before form. We cannot recognize a human being unless we have a clear idea what make it human, i.e. what is humanity. Likewise, we cannot recognize what is God or of God unless we have an-agreed-upon definition of what is divine/divinity. Otherwise, God is anything anyone can come up with. Clearly, in such case we may be talking right past each other while using the same terminology. Define God/divinity and then conduct a poll based on that definition to make the results meaningful.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Azdgari on July 09, 2010, 07:40:34 AM
That would make you an "ignostic atheist", then.  It's covered.  ;)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: anothen on July 09, 2010, 10:53:18 AM
That would make you an "ignostic atheist", then.  It's covered.  ;)
I don't think so. I never said the belief in "God" is meaningless (which is the definition of ignostic), but rather indeterminate because one can neither believe in nor deny that which cannot be known.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Azdgari on July 09, 2010, 10:59:25 AM
You said that the label carries no definite meaning for you.  So, for you, it is meaningless.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: anothen on July 09, 2010, 11:10:09 AM
You said that the label carries no definite meaning for you.  So, for you, it is meaningless.
I said that one needs to define what deity is in order to make the poll meaningful. I didn't say that the belief in a deity is meaningless. Without the definition of what God is one can neither affirm nor deny a belief in the divine. 
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Azdgari on July 09, 2010, 12:00:28 PM
Ahh.  Fair enough, I concede that point.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: spiritualatheist on July 28, 2010, 09:59:56 PM
Not surprising at all this site has so many atheists like myself. I voted agnostic atheist since I can't be certain there are no gods, but due to the lack of any proof, I refuse to believe in it.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: snowroller on July 29, 2010, 08:33:09 AM
(My first post, will introduce myself later ;) )

My stand on it all is that I know that there are no gods. However, what made the Universe I don't know. All I know is that it wasn't an intelligent being. If it was we wouldn't have been here because we know from the myths that the gods didn't like competition. Why make an image of themselves if these images one day could amass the might to overthrow them?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: lorilizbeth on August 02, 2010, 11:11:27 PM
This is also my first post. I'm a newborn agnostic atheist (literally; I just saw the light about three days ago). I've been lurking pretty much nonstop on this forum since I registered.

By the way, that is the first time I have actually typed the words "I'm an atheist." My heart is pounding, but it feels so RIGHT.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Jessie on August 02, 2010, 11:13:29 PM
^ Haha, congrats! :)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: none on August 02, 2010, 11:14:55 PM
This is also my first post. I'm a newborn agnostic atheist (literally; I just saw the light about three days ago). I've been lurking pretty much nonstop on this forum since I registered.

By the way, that is the first time I have actually typed the words "I'm an atheist." My heart is pounding, but it feels so RIGHT.
just wait until you die, then the fun begins....
congrats.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Sashka on August 03, 2010, 08:34:43 AM
just wait until you die, then the fun begins....
congrats.

:D
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Jesuspadawan on August 06, 2010, 03:23:10 AM
What would u click if you are a Christian? :-\
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: wheels5894 on August 06, 2010, 06:05:09 AM
How About 'gnostic monotheist ' - you are a monotheist I suppose and you know there is just one god. Simple!
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: the suspicious on August 06, 2010, 10:22:24 PM
I'm certain there are no gods. Which makes me a gnostic atheist.

I'm so sure of this that even saying "I'm certain" sounds a little unconvincing. It simply is: "there are no gods". I don't "believe" this statement, it just is.

I sound so ignorant... :-\
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: none on August 06, 2010, 10:25:43 PM
not ignorant... IMO, but it means you don't exist....
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: the suspicious on August 07, 2010, 02:18:49 PM
Ok. I'll just agree to disagree.

It's kind of like saying "I was born and raised without the idea of god(s) ever being mentioned to me. I have never heard of such thing before." So none exist.
Don't argue, I know I'll probably get a reply with "well, by that logic, we could say that blah blah blah".

Just no.
No gods exist. That's it. I won't argue.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: kebib on August 09, 2010, 01:17:01 PM
"I cannot believe in a God who wants to be praised all the time."
---Friedrich Nietzsche
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Graybeard on August 09, 2010, 03:29:00 PM
[...]
No gods exist. That's it. I won't argue.
Neither should you, you are right.

Who would concede that there might be an invisible teapot circling the earth or that there might be a toothbrush made of bricks that turns into a flying leopard and would also concede that there might be a god or gods?

No gods exist.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Uncertain on August 12, 2010, 10:16:06 AM
This is my first post.  This topic caught my interest.  I read all the possible choices and realize that none describes how I would describe myself.  I lean toward a belief in what I would call a "transcendental reality".  Which means I think there is more to our world than can be explained by a strictly materialist position, although beyond that I can't say anything for certain.  Hence, the name Uncertain. 
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Azdgari on August 12, 2010, 10:32:19 AM
Uncertain,
The poll of the OP does not ask about every belief one might have.  It only asks about whether one believes in god(s), and the nature of that (un)belief in god(s).

Is the "transcendental reality" to which you refer, a god of some description?  If not, then you're an atheist.  If so, then you're some kind of theist.  In either case, you ought to be able to find a term for your position.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Uncertain on August 12, 2010, 11:58:18 AM
I'm really not sure.  I guess I think the term "god" really defies definition. 10 people can say "I believe in god" and have 10 different conceptualizations.  I'm not a Buddhist, but don't they believe in something beyond materialism, yet they are not theists?  Where a Buddhist could believe in reincarnation, hence the Dalai Lama being a reincarnation of the Dalai Lama's before him. A materialist, who is also a non-theist would reject reincarnation. 
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: MockTurtle on August 12, 2010, 12:12:18 PM
I'm not a Buddhist, but don't they believe in something beyond materialism, yet they are not theists?
If anything, Buddhism is agnostic.  In one of the sutras there is a story about the Buddha being asked what happens after death and other "religious" questions.  His response was that asking such questions was like a person who, after being hit by an arrow, refused treatment unless he was first told who shot him, what kind of bow, ect.  The point was that he was trying to teach a way end suffering and all those other questions, no matter what the answers, were irrelevant distractions.

This was also a fairly shrewd political maneuver. Since he and his followers relied on the support of various local monarchs and land owners for food, shelter, and protection, it wouldn't have been a good idea to explicitly reject their beliefs or their favorite deities.

Quote
  Where a Buddhist could believe in reincarnation, hence the Dalai Lama being a reincarnation of the Dalai Lama's before him. A materialist, who is also a non-theist would reject reincarnation. 
It's not an either-or issue. There are plenty of Buddhists who are materialists too and don't believe in reincarnation.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Uncertain on August 12, 2010, 01:44:34 PM
You used the term that Buddhism is basically agnostic. So the Dalai Lama is an agnostic who believes in reincarnation.  I'm guessing we'd be safe to say that his position is not materialist either.  So all of the Buddhists like him are neither theistic, nor materialistic - correct?  Which box would the Dalai Lama check?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Azdgari on August 12, 2010, 02:57:47 PM
I'm really not sure.  I guess I think the term "god" really defies definition.

A word only defies definition to those who are unwilling to openly attach a definition to that word.

10 people can say "I believe in god" and have 10 different conceptualizations.

Yet, they all see their god-ideas as being god-ideas, or they'd use a different term.  The OP's question is about self-identity.  Do you classify this "transcendental reality" of yours as a god, or as containing a god, or in some other sense involving a real god - according to your own idea of what a "god" would be?  The answer to this question is boolean.  Either you do, or you do not.

I'm not a Buddhist, but don't they believe in something beyond materialism, yet they are not theists?  Where a Buddhist could believe in reincarnation, hence the Dalai Lama being a reincarnation of the Dalai Lama's before him. A materialist, who is also a non-theist would reject reincarnation.
If they don't believe in any gods, then they are atheists.  If they do believe in any gods, then they are theists.  Whether or not they believe in a supernatural reality (whatever that means in practice) is irrelevant to the question of whether they are atheists or theists.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Uncertain on August 12, 2010, 03:20:11 PM
There's my whole point about definitions.  MockTurtle would define Buddhists as agnostic and Adzgari is saying they are atheists. Those are two different things.  If I had said "I'm a Buddhist" it would mean a different thing to each of you.  Then there would be the question of whether I was a materialist Buddhist or one who believes in a supernatural reality.  So saying "I'm a Buddhist" would possibly mean something to me and something completely different to you. 

I'm saying that I don't see what I am in any of your choices.  I would check the "Other" box if you had one.

And I still don't know what box the Dalai Lama should check.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: MockTurtle on August 12, 2010, 03:41:33 PM
There's my whole point about definitions.  MockTurtle would define Buddhists as agnostic and Adzgari is saying they are atheists.
I don't think Adzgari and I disagree.  If an individual Buddhist does not believe in gods that individual is an Buddhist atheist.  My comment was that most sects of Buddhism do not claim one way or another if there is a god; therefore, their dogma is agnostic.

Quote
So saying "I'm a Buddhist" would possibly mean something to me and something completely different to you. 
Yes, the term "Buddhism" is a western invention that does not have a precise definition.

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: spiritualatheist on August 29, 2010, 10:26:34 AM
Ok, this site and its partner Godisimaginary.com is one of the main reasons I became an 'atheist'. I don't agree with all of the arguments and points presented in the articles of these two sites, but for the most part they are correct: God is indeed imaginary. If you think about it, the term 'atheist' is completely redundant (as pointed out by this site and something I completely agree with). I was introduced to Christianity when I was 5 to 10 from Sunday schools. It never fully made sense to me, and due to my curiousity and lack of family indoctrination I was never a true believer. I was agnostic or deist (terms I didn't understand back then) up to about 15. because I never technically didn't believe God exist. After renewing an interest in religion I discovered this site and other media relating to religion and came to the conclusion that God is imaginary and that was about 5 years ago.

edit: correcting a major grammar error.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Fab on September 01, 2010, 04:23:21 PM
Zen Buddhist.. which effectively makes me an atheist.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: wheels5894 on September 02, 2010, 03:34:33 AM
Which makes me wonder - just exactly what is a religion. I have always thought of a religion as the worship of some sort of god. Buddhist, if it is atheist like Zen, is surely than something other than religious, more like a self-improvement system. if we call Buddhist religious, why do we do that - what makes it religious?

I hate to compare Buddhist with a fake cult, Scientology, but Hubbard really founded his 'cult' in order to legally sell his wrong view of psychiatry and could be called self-improvement - if it did not result in damaged individuals. However, no one in their right mind would call it religious.

So what do we need to make some practice or other a religion rather than self-help?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: screwtape on September 02, 2010, 09:29:11 AM
When I took a philosophy of religion class, we defined religion as the cultural institution that deals with gods and how people relate to them.  That may include an afterlife, but not all of them did.  Buddhism was a "religion" that did not fit the paradigm and was not really a religion, in that context.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: xphobe on September 02, 2010, 05:35:52 PM
I've observed various Buddhists as an outsider, and as far as I can see there are different kinds of Buddhism, some more "religion-y" than others.

Some treat the Buddha as a human who lived, taught some good things, and died.  Others think magical events surrounded his life and death.  Some seem to think of him almost as a god, insisting he be referred to reverently as "Lord Buddha".  Some pray to him.  Some worship auxiliary gods and goddesses like Kuan Yin.  Some believe in reincarnation, some don't.  Some eat meat, some don't.  Labeling someone a Buddhist is every bit as vague as as calling someone a "christian"
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: screwtape on September 03, 2010, 08:42:38 AM
^ word

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: TopolX on September 17, 2010, 01:05:10 AM
Ha. I don't fit anywhere in that lovingly compiled list of options. I believe that the universe had to have been created by an uncaused cause which may or may not be the universe but as the first uncaused cause it fulfills the role of God because it lies outside all probability/possibility but is also 100% certain as science cannot allow for an initial event. This means God isn't sentient, and may not currently exist or may exist as the universe but the latter is in my opinion unlikely so hence I'd add a new option of God used to exist but no longer does as It has fulfilled It's role.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Azdgari on September 17, 2010, 01:21:43 AM
"Sentience" is a pretty standard requrirement for something to be called a "god".

Rather, the word "universe", or the phrase "universe in the past", adequately describes the thing in which you believe.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: truehyuga on September 17, 2010, 08:41:09 AM
Ha. I don't fit anywhere in that lovingly compiled list of options. I believe that the universe had to have been created by an uncaused cause which may or may not be the universe but as the first uncaused cause it fulfills the role of God because it lies outside all probability/possibility but is also 100% certain as science cannot allow for an initial event. This means God isn't sentient, and may not currently exist or may exist as the universe but the latter is in my opinion unlikely so hence I'd add a new option of God used to exist but no longer does as It has fulfilled It's role.
Why can't the universe be eternal?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: xphobe on September 17, 2010, 07:07:34 PM
I believe that the universe had to have been created by an uncaused cause which may or may not be the universe

Come again?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: radames on September 18, 2010, 12:48:07 AM
As is typical, I was brought up thinking that there was a guy named "god" who created everything.  I was told to avoid things like evolution and Darwinism because they were "evil" and ill-advised.  Wow, now I realize how much brainwashing there actually is on this earth.  I started thinking for myself, stopped being religious, and found out that there is very little reason, logic, and common sense in the world.  "Emotional addiction" is one of the reasons for this fact.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: xphobe on September 18, 2010, 08:40:14 AM
there is very little reason, logic, and common sense in the world.  "Emotional addiction" is one of the reasons for this fact.

Buddhists call that "attachment"...
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Hatter23 on September 23, 2010, 08:23:18 AM
The problem with Gnostic theism is that there are so many varieties of it, all with the exact same evidence of being true, that one must commit the fallacy of special pleading at the very start of any justifcation.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: xphobe on September 23, 2010, 12:02:40 PM
^ Do you put Gnostic Atheism in the same category of requiring special pleading?  Why, or why not?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Hatter23 on September 23, 2010, 01:01:49 PM
^ Do you put Gnostic Atheism in the same category of requiring special pleading?  Why, or why not?



It is making an absolutist assertation without proof, so technically yes. However given everything other than the Deist god requires a suspension of physical law and/or logical absurdity, effectively no. Essentially it is a Russels teapot/Dragon in my garage problem. To assert it doesn't exist is a philosophically undefendable position, however to do so under the "such a small chance as to be effectively nil" is a common sense one.

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: spiritualatheist on September 23, 2010, 11:47:04 PM
1..Strong Theist: I do not question the existence of God, I KNOW he exists.
2..De-facto Theist: I cannot know for certain but I strongly believe in God and I live my life on the assumption that he is there.
3..Weak Theist: I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.
4..Pure Agnostic: God’s existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.
5..Weak Atheist: I do not know whether God exists but I’m inclined to be skeptical.
6..De-facto Atheist: I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable and I live my life under the assumption that he is not there.
7..Strong Atheist: I am 100% sure that there is no God.

Where do you fall?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: xphobe on September 24, 2010, 12:22:00 AM
^ those are non-standard terms, and not compatible with the definitions in the OP.  You should start your own thread/poll. 

For example, "agnostic" has nothing to do with your location along the theist/atheist belief continuum, it's about certainty of knowledge.  In fact, the OP even has it wrong: agnostic is more than "don't know", it's "can't know".  Regardless, one can be agnostic and theist, or agnostic and atheist.   That's what you call the Weak and De-Facto positions.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: stratford on September 24, 2010, 07:55:17 PM
1..Strong Theist: I do not question the existence of God, I KNOW he exists.
2..De-facto Theist: I cannot know for certain but I strongly believe in God and I live my life on the assumption that he is there.
3..Weak Theist: I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.
4..Pure Agnostic: God’s existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.
5..Weak Atheist: I do not know whether God exists but I’m inclined to be skeptical.
6..De-facto Atheist: I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable and I live my life under the assumption that he is not there.
7..Strong Atheist: I am 100% sure that there is no God.

Where do you fall?
hello guys! i've lurked here a while and recently decided to join. i'm a de-facto atheist.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: truehyuga on September 24, 2010, 08:57:12 PM
^ those are non-standard terms, and not compatible with the definitions in the OP.  You should start your own thread/poll.

For example, "agnostic" has nothing to do with your location along the theist/atheist belief continuum, it's about certainty of knowledge.  In fact, the OP even has it wrong: agnostic is more than "don't know", it's "can't know".  Regardless, one can be agnostic and theist, or agnostic and atheist.   That's what you call the Weak and De-Facto positions.

However, since it is ridiculous to believe that something is impossible to know, as the statement, in itself, can never be proven, the OP has just included "don't know".
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: spiritualatheist on September 24, 2010, 09:05:47 PM
Who is a well-known, famous Strong Atheist?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Hatter23 on September 28, 2010, 07:58:49 AM
Who is a well-known, famous Strong Atheist?

Friedrich Nietzsche, I think would qualify
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: xphobe on September 28, 2010, 02:17:02 PM
How about Bertrand Russell and Richard Dawkins?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: truehyuga on September 28, 2010, 04:56:55 PM
I know Dawkins is of the 99.999999999999999999999999999999% percent crowd, but he sees that as the same thing really.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: spiritualatheist on September 28, 2010, 06:52:40 PM
How about Bertrand Russell and Richard Dawkins?
He said he's a de facto atheist or a 6 on his 1 to 7 scale.

This is the only person on Youtube who is a strong atheist.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0CCWkpoj3E[/youtube]
He says that somewhere after the 2 minute mark.
He says that other atheists can't answer SoG and TC2's question properly because they aren't strong atheists.

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: xphobe on September 28, 2010, 07:13:12 PM
Doesn't it depend how you define "God"?  If I told Dawkins or any other "strong atheist" that my definition of God is the entirety of everything that exists, or even my Nissan Altima sitting out on my driveway, they would have no choice but to "believe in it" because it exists. 

On the other hand, if you define God as an omnipotent, omniscient supernatural being who revealed himself in the Bible, then I would say such a god is not only silly and internally inconsistent but also logically impossible and I would be a strong atheist with respect to that one.  I think that's pretty much how Dawkins thinks.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: spiritualatheist on September 28, 2010, 10:33:36 PM
Doesn't it depend how you define "God"?  If I told Dawkins or any other "strong atheist" that my definition of God is the entirety of everything that exists, or even my Nissan Altima sitting out on my driveway, they would have no choice but to "believe in it" because it exists. 

On the other hand, if you define God as an omnipotent, omniscient supernatural being who revealed himself in the Bible, then I would say such a god is not only silly and internally inconsistent but also logically impossible and I would be a strong atheist with respect to that one.  I think that's pretty much how Dawkins thinks.
I am 100% certain the Bible/Quran God is impossible.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Epiphany84 on October 01, 2010, 01:45:18 AM
Quote
ignostic atheist - While the concepts of god(s) are meaningless, it is likely that there are no gods.

I chose this, although i must admit I had a hard time choosing between this and agnostic atheist.  i think I'm a bit of both.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: way12go on October 02, 2010, 01:32:04 AM
Gods can't exist and here is why...
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: truehyuga on October 02, 2010, 01:33:20 AM
Gods can't exist and here is why...

No. Don't. Already told multiple times not to spam this.
I will report you if you don't stay in one thread with this.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: RaymondKHessel on October 04, 2010, 06:07:24 PM
Gods can't exist and here is why...

No. Don't. Already told multiple times not to spam this.
I will report you if you don't stay in one thread with this.

Seriously. We heard you the first time. 6+4 can't equal a Gorilla so therefore = NO GOD or whatever.

Your "disproval" is seriously goofy man. It just reeks to high hell of faux intellectualism and special pleading. I seriously think you do more harm for your cause than good by blasting that inane bullshit all over the internet and then ignoring the people who critique you. It makes you come of as a raving loon, and you're as obnoxious about it as the religious.

And I'm a pretty hardline atheist telling you this.  So, you know, take it as you will.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Str82Hell on October 04, 2010, 07:28:28 PM
I think I am 12 on Dawkins scale. I mean, come on, it's just a stupid idea.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Historicity on October 04, 2010, 07:44:51 PM
Who is a well-known, famous Strong Atheist?

Burt Lancaster -- I mean, look at his upper body development.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Science Fan on October 09, 2010, 04:28:15 PM
Pretty straight forward for me. It is impossible to know pretty much anything for certain, but here we have an extraordinary claim made with no verifiable evidence to back it up and I have no other choice but to conclude possible but extremely improbable for god's or any gods' existence.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: geochron on October 13, 2010, 06:28:02 PM
I don't know (or care) if there is a god, but there certainly isn't any evidence for one. Even if a god or gods existed, it is of little consequence to the way in which I live my life.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Jeff7 on October 17, 2010, 01:48:20 PM
I.. guess this is as good as anywhere to finally make that whole first post thing!

Currently I'm not even sure what the hey I am. I've been a Christian (OneTrue or otherwise) for the last two years and one month. Yet, for my spiritual birthday as my friends call it, I've been steadily becoming more and more skeptic... a big ole '3' on the Dawkins scale, maybe, with seemingly more leanings towards the other end of the spectrum as time goes on? (And I guess, in the way the poll in the OP describes it, 'agnostic monotheist'?)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: xphobe on October 17, 2010, 10:43:50 PM
Hi Jeff7!  Thanks for posting.  Don't worry, we won't make you participate in secret atheist ceremonies (yet - that's reserved for Dawkins-7s and above). 

The important thing is that you keep an open mind, and remember to question authority. ;)  Uh.. that's two important things, isn't it?  Hm, no one expects the Spanish Inquisition.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on November 02, 2010, 02:25:06 PM
Could "Nothing" be placed up there?

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Azdgari on November 02, 2010, 03:25:53 PM
Are you suggesting that the entire list be erased?  :o
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Science Fan on November 03, 2010, 06:02:50 AM
I think he wishes not to take part in the poll?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on November 23, 2010, 05:38:37 PM
The option "Nothing".  Which is what I adhere to.

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Operator_011 on November 23, 2010, 05:59:06 PM
Why have you stated "Ignostic" in your title if you want to vote for "nothing" as an option in this thread?  :shrug
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on November 23, 2010, 05:59:52 PM
Why have you stated "Ignostic" in your title if you want to vote for "nothing" as an option in this thread?  :shrug

I forgot that was there.  Haven't been on as much as I used to, these things go unnoticed.

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Operator_011 on November 23, 2010, 06:03:40 PM
^ Easily done I suppose.

Well, since the OP is asking what our religous position is, it assumes that we have one. If you feel that you don't, of any kind, I'd say this probably isn't the poll for you.

:)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on November 23, 2010, 06:09:15 PM
^ Easily done I suppose.

Well, since the OP is asking what our religous position is, it assumes that we have one. If you feel that you don't, of any kind, I'd say this probably isn't the poll for you.

:)

Then are you implying that "Atheism" and anything pertaining to it is a "Religious position"?  Seems the poll is, and since Atheists contend that "Atheism" isn't a "religion", why they partake in the poll is beyond me.

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Operator_011 on November 23, 2010, 06:14:55 PM
No. I'm simply saying that, since you have no religious position, and decline to state that without a belief in a god you are, by definition, an atheist, then complaining that the "nothing" option doesn't exist is semantic, thus a pointless complaint for this poll.

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on November 23, 2010, 06:17:38 PM
No. I'm simply saying that, since you have no religious position, and decline to state that without a belief in a god you are, by definition, an atheist, then complaining that the "nothing" option doesn't exist is semantic, thus a pointless complaint for this poll.



Not an Atheist.  "Atheism" or "Atheist" implies there's a "god/God" or "gods" not to believe in.  And since one ultimate definition can't be applied to such a thing or things, then, it doesn't exist by word and/or whatever it is by proxy.  Therefore, I can't be an Atheist.

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Operator_011 on November 23, 2010, 06:27:24 PM
Not an Atheist.  "Atheism" or "Atheist" implies there's a "god/God" or "gods" not to believe in.
By definition, anyone who makes the positive statement that "there is no god to believe in" (as you just have, effectively) is most certainly some form of atheist, since they are claiming that there is no god, and thus lack theistic beliefs (atheist).

Quote
Therefore, I can't be an Atheist.
So you're a theist of some kind?

You can't have it both ways. Your argument is semantical, at best.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on November 23, 2010, 06:42:03 PM
But I don't make that statement, which is why I feel there should be a "Nothing", 'cause I have absolutely no position either way, whatsoever.

I can't say "there is no god to believe in" 'cause I don't know what "god" is, what definition it has, and if it's just a word someone made up and slapped a definition to.  I could look up the word "Atheism" a couple of hundred years ago, and I doubt it be the universal definition of today.  See my point?

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Operator_011 on November 23, 2010, 06:44:29 PM
See my point?
Yes. Semantics. Either you believe that a god exists, for whatever reason (some form of theism) or you don't, for whatever reason (some form of atheism).

Either way, whether we agree or not, the "nothing" option isn't there and isn't likely to be added since Hermes no longer posts here.

Do you see my point?

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: at78rpm on November 25, 2010, 11:56:20 AM
Well, I thought about the question.  Although the author came up with some very good categories, I still find I'm not even an ignostic atheist!  Ah, well. 

For me, the entire question of the validity of Christianity is answered irrevocably by the absolute failure of the world to end in Jesus' time, as he clearly foretold in Mark.  And, no, you can't go on telling me that he didn't mean it in a real sense and all that nonsense.  He expected an apocalypse and it didn't happen.  He's as reliable as Hal Lindsey.

The question of the validity of any other religion is negated for me by the fact that they too are predicated on silliness and misunderstanding.

As for the existence of a supreme being, who the hell cares?  Hasn't nature already shown that it is more powerful than any friggin' character who wants to be worshiped for some alleged divinity?

at78rpm
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Operator_011 on November 26, 2010, 08:04:41 AM
Off-topic post by Brian Cowen trashed.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Graybeard on November 26, 2010, 09:11:26 AM
Well, I thought about the question.  Although the author came up with some very good categories, I still find I'm not even an ignostic atheist! 

So, you reject Christianity, you reject all other gods and any idea of divinity. You have reached this point through observations that lead you to the irrevocable conclusion that there are no gods.

Does that not mean you are a Dawkins 7 atheist and as such are indeed a Gnostic atheist?

I classify myself as a Gnostic atheist as I know for certain that not only are there no gods, there cannot be gods and there never have been any.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on December 13, 2010, 06:12:16 PM
Yes. Semantics. Either you believe that a god exists, for whatever reason (some form of theism) or you don't, for whatever reason (some form of atheism).

You do not get it.  It's  not "semantics".  Apparently I can't explain my position to you; it's okay.  I don't fault you.  You're thinking from the only side(s) you know.

Quote
Either way, whether we agree or not, the "nothing" option isn't there and isn't likely to be added since Hermes no longer posts here.

Do you see my point?

Sort of a moot one, no?  I mean, if you stated beforehand that Hermes no longer posted here, then, the discussion would've been over at that point, and "we" wouldn't have had this disagreement.  That's your fault, not mine.

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: ZombieTortureDevice on January 11, 2011, 08:50:01 PM
I'm an agnostic atheist. I do not believe in a god because I have not yet been shown definitive evidence. If someone can show me ABSOLUTE definitive evidence, then we can talk...  ;)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: commonsense on January 19, 2011, 12:28:53 PM
See my point?
Yes. Semantics. Either you believe that a god exists, for whatever reason (some form of theism) or you don't, for whatever reason (some form of atheism).

Either way, whether we agree or not, the "nothing" option isn't there and isn't likely to be added since Hermes no longer posts here.

Do you see my point?

I am of exactly the same opinion as Nam and can clearly explain my standpoint , hopefully you will also understand Nam's.

Atheism is the only term used in the world to describe a "non belief"  , realistically it should never be used to categorize a persons position anymore than a non belief in astrology makes you an Aastrologist , stating you are an atheist gives credibility to theism as being something tangible to be apposed too.
We do not need to label ourselves for not believing in boogie men , we simply do no share that belief with those that do and it's totally acceptable to share our opinion without having to call ourselves Aboogiemenist. , god has no more credibility to me than a boogie man .

If someone tells me they are a christian , I ask them if they are getting help for their mental condition ,I also feel obligated to explain that while I may care about them as human beings ,I am not a qualified psychologist so sharing their condition with me will be of no benefit.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on January 20, 2011, 05:30:13 PM
See my point?
Yes. Semantics. Either you believe that a god exists, for whatever reason (some form of theism) or you don't, for whatever reason (some form of atheism).

Either way, whether we agree or not, the "nothing" option isn't there and isn't likely to be added since Hermes no longer posts here.

Do you see my point?

I am of exactly the same opinion as Nam and can clearly explain my standpoint , hopefully you will also understand Nam's.

Atheism is the only term used in the world to describe a "non belief"

I do not believe it's the "only" one but it is the most common one used.

Quote
...stating you are an atheist gives credibility to theism as being something tangible to be apposed too.

This isn't necessarily accurate, either.  From my standpoint, "atheist/atheism" is defined as holding a non-belief in something, and in this point: God/god -- which, in my opinion, implies that there's such a being not to believe in. However, the definition itself has changed slightly over the past 6 hundred or so years to be specifically about one thing, and then be about another[1].  People usually add additional definitions to a word rather than just change the definition of the word -- as one can note in almost any dictionary.

Quote
We do not need to label ourselves for not believing in boogie men

"boogie men" are actually based on real people; theives in the night, murderers, etc., like some fairy tales are actually based on something that was real at one point and just rewritten to create a fictional story.

Quote
...god has no more credibility to me than a boogie man .

Stating it this way, in which you have, implies that there's a "god".  See my point?

Quote
If someone tells me they are a christian , I ask them if they are getting help for their mental condition

I disagree with this.  There's no need for such hostilities towards people; it's like feeding fire fire.  Christians are mainly who/what they are because of "Jesus" (who may or may not have existed), rather than the deity that they hold above him or as him.

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,I also feel obligated to explain that while I may care about them as human beings ,I am not a qualified psychologist so sharing their condition with me will be of no benefit.

If you cared about them, then would you not insult them by implying that they are crazy for being a Christian?

-Nam
 1. this change mainly came in the 18th century
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Graybeard on January 22, 2011, 10:01:13 AM
Out of idle curiosity, I summed the 4 categories of atheist, the 17 categories of theist and ignored the final three categories.

The result is: total vote 558, of which 382 atheists = 68% and 176 theists = 32%

As the site is predominantly American, from Wiki: 83 percent of Americans claim to belong to a religious denomination.

FWIW...
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Jim on February 10, 2011, 01:27:40 PM
^ unfortunately, the poll allows multiple voting.  Contrarian simultaneous votes are allowed.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on February 12, 2011, 03:29:28 PM
^ unfortunately, the poll allows multiple voting.  Contrarian simultaneous votes are allowed.

If you do not know what you are -- choose all the above.

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Azdgari on February 26, 2011, 11:23:18 AM
Rather than crassly use this forum as a plug for your website, you could have quoted from it to explain what you mean, like so:

Quote from: Taffy's site
"Preterism / full preterism (and even partial preterism) is the only hermeneutic that rightly divides the Word of God.  By it general doctrines of eschatology such as; the apocalypse, revelation, 666, the beast, the end times, the last days, the second coming, the rapture, covenant theology, the Parousia, the tribulation, fulfilled prophecies and the resurrection, open up clearly to the understanding and the mists of superstition and erroneous traditions are quickly dispelled."

The above is not grammatically correct, mind you.  It basically says "By its general doctrines [such as - list] open up clearly to the understanding ... (etc.)".  The latter clause has no subject.  Just what is opening up?  Are the doctrines opening up?  Is the reader opening up?  This is not specified, because of the quote's poor English.

Taffy, could you clarify?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: relativetruth on March 14, 2011, 03:03:57 PM
Out of idle curiosity, I summed the 4 categories of atheist, the 17 categories of theist and ignored the final three categories.

The result is: total vote 558, of which 382 atheists = 68% and 176 theists = 32%

As the site is predominantly American, from Wiki: 83 percent of Americans claim to belong to a religious denomination.

FWIW...

If the survey is accurate I am amazed that 32% of people on this site regard themselves as theist.

If the poll could have factored in 'number of posts per voter' then maybe the stats would not be skewed by fly-by theists who just voted but did not stick around to argue their point of view.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Ambivalent on March 15, 2011, 11:32:21 PM
I don't think my option is on here.

What's it called when someone (me) carries this very indirect thought process:

-does not believe in a Biblical God -- does not believe that whoever 'God' is had any say when the Bible was created by man
-increasingly believing that perhaps no God exists at all
-believes it's possible a God may have created the Universe, but doesn't care for it
-believe it's possible that an 'imperfect' God may exist (not 'all knowing') but may pick favourites (ie; while it's far more probable that NO God exists, if he/she does exist, it would seem they pick favourites [people dying of starvation, people living in poverty..] BUT I'd suppose only a 'God' could describe right and wrong if he/she exists?

 :-\  Hah. I have no idea where my mind is going with this is.  :? I think I think far too much.

I know for certain that I'd LIKE to believe in an after life, but that's just my desire for eternity, it doesn't stop the gut feeling that maybe there's no God and if there is, he/she certainly picks favourites and allows many people to suffer while others live happily.


Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: xTigerx on March 16, 2011, 01:29:16 AM
Well, I selected a lot of options the last time I was here, but it's time for an update.   I'm an agnostic atheist; that is all.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: grant on March 21, 2011, 03:34:03 AM

I know for certain that I'd LIKE to believe in an after life, but that's just my desire for eternity, it doesn't stop the gut feeling that maybe there's no God and if there is, he/she certainly picks favourites and allows many people to suffer while others live happily.

And I'd like the Rabbitohs to win this years grand final. And good old god keeps giving teams like St George and the Storm all the close calls.

Wanting is different to reality. God is no more helping St George than the Rabbitohs, whatever I or anyone else thinks or wants.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Ambivalent on March 21, 2011, 02:41:53 PM

I know for certain that I'd LIKE to believe in an after life, but that's just my desire for eternity, it doesn't stop the gut feeling that maybe there's no God and if there is, he/she certainly picks favourites and allows many people to suffer while others live happily.

And I'd like the Rabbitohs to win this years grand final. And good old god keeps giving teams like St George and the Storm all the close calls.

Wanting is different to reality. God is no more helping St George than the Rabbitohs, whatever I or anyone else thinks or wants.

I can sense your unneeded sarcasm here. Obviously, you failed to read my point where I said I'd LIKE, and not made it into a fact?  :-\ :P I simply stated I would enjoy the fact, but acknowledge that it's a desire, nothing more. :)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Graybeard on March 21, 2011, 04:07:18 PM
-does not believe in a Biblical God -- does not believe that whoever 'God' is had any say when the Bible was created by man
-increasingly believing that perhaps no God exists at all
-believes it's possible a God may have created the Universe, but doesn't care for it
-believe it's possible that an 'imperfect' God may exist (not 'all knowing') but may pick favourites (ie; while it's far more probable that NO God exists, if he/she does exist, it would seem they pick favourites [people dying of starvation, people living in poverty..] BUT I'd suppose only a 'God' could describe right and wrong if he/she exists?
I would say that, in the absence of a direct statement denying all gods, you are agnostic. If you admit that “it's possible a God may have created the Universe, but doesn't care for it” this would make you a deist. So you are an agnostic deist. Please vote accordingly. :)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Runic on March 21, 2011, 08:40:24 PM
I believe in Mother Nature ... who counts her as a goddess :)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: grant on March 22, 2011, 02:02:46 AM

I know for certain that I'd LIKE to believe in an after life, but that's just my desire for eternity, it doesn't stop the gut feeling that maybe there's no God and if there is, he/she certainly picks favourites and allows many people to suffer while others live happily.

And I'd like the Rabbitohs to win this years grand final. And good old god keeps giving teams like St George and the Storm all the close calls.

Wanting is different to reality. God is no more helping St George than the Rabbitohs, whatever I or anyone else thinks or wants.

I can sense your unneeded sarcasm here. Obviously, you failed to read my point where I said I'd LIKE, and not made it into a fact?  :-\ :P I simply stated I would enjoy the fact, but acknowledge that it's a desire, nothing more. :)

Sorry if you thought I was being sarcastic, it wasn't my intention. I certainly got your point of "liking" the idea of, and desiring eternity. That's why the subject of my post was "wanting" as opposed to expecting or believing. I "want" the Rabbitohs to win, you "want" eternity. We both want things god isn't going to help us with.

Wanting eternity is a very godly wish, nobody mortal can supply it. You'll need a god to get it granted. This is a very serious desire - life or death. My trivial footy example in comparison was made because it is so trivial, to demonstrate we're both in the same boat - believing or hoping for gods intervention won't change the fact that neither of us, serious or trivial, are going to get supernatural intervention.

Good luck getting your desire fulfilled, I'm gonna put my faith in our forwards  :D
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Ambivalent on March 22, 2011, 05:08:01 PM
-does not believe in a Biblical God -- does not believe that whoever 'God' is had any say when the Bible was created by man
-increasingly believing that perhaps no God exists at all
-believes it's possible a God may have created the Universe, but doesn't care for it
-believe it's possible that an 'imperfect' God may exist (not 'all knowing') but may pick favourites (ie; while it's far more probable that NO God exists, if he/she does exist, it would seem they pick favourites [people dying of starvation, people living in poverty..] BUT I'd suppose only a 'God' could describe right and wrong if he/she exists?
I would say that, in the absence of a direct statement denying all gods, you are agnostic. If you admit that “it's possible a God may have created the Universe, but doesn't care for it” this would make you a deist. So you are an agnostic deist. Please vote accordingly. :)

Sounds good. ;) I do consider myself agnostic.

Quote
Wanting eternity is a very godly wish, nobody mortal can supply it. You'll need a god to get it granted. This is a very serious desire - life or death. My trivial footy example in comparison was made because it is so trivial, to demonstrate we're both in the same boat - believing or hoping for gods intervention won't change the fact that neither of us, serious or trivial, are going to get supernatural intervention.

Alright, I had taken it as a sarcastic stance but if it wasn't, then there's no issue with what you had said.

I wouldn't just love for myself to be immortal, I'd love for everyone I love to be, too. ;) If I was the only one immortal, I'd desire death. xD 
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: mango on March 24, 2011, 02:55:37 PM
I am wondering about the agnostic atheism in the strong Huxley sense mentioned in the beginning. The claim a) "I know that whether God exists is unknowable" is comparably strong to the claim b) "I know that God does not exist." At least you cannot claim a) without at least making an argument how you know THAT it is impossible to know whether God exists. The weak agnostic claim c) "I don't know if God exists" does of course not require an argument. However, it is about as interesting as saying "I don't know what time it is" because it says nothing about God and only something about your own mental state - which has next to nothing to do with God's existence. That means that a strong agnostic in sense a) has to bring arguments for his position, just like a theist who says d) I know God exists.
Basically I am saying that any claim that starts either with "I know that..." or "You can't know that..." has to be substantiated, because every claim of "you can't know that..." implies 'I know that: "You can't know that..."'

Actually, the atheist claim may be a weaker claim than the agnostic claim. The Atheist only has to say "I know one valid argument why God does not exist" The Huxleyan Agnostic has to say "I know all possible arguments for and against the existence of God, and none of them work one way or the other." Seems to me that agnosticism is the stronger claim.

Fun times! Also, hi to the forum,
Mango
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: wright on March 24, 2011, 03:12:29 PM
Welcome, mango.

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: xphobe on March 24, 2011, 05:04:44 PM
I am wondering about the agnostic atheism in the strong Huxley sense mentioned in the beginning. The claim a) "I know that whether God exists is unknowable" is comparably strong to the claim b) "I know that God does not exist." At least you cannot claim a) without at least making an argument how you know THAT it is impossible to know whether God exists.

It is possible to show (for example in mathematics[1], formal logic[2], or quantum mechanics[3]) that some things are unknowable.  So if a god is defined as the superset of all things, knowable and unknowable, then by definition gods are unknowable in their entirety.  We might think we know something that is claimed to be a god, but we could never be certain.

Quote
Basically I am saying that any claim that starts either with "I know that..." or "You can't know that..." has to be substantiated, because every claim of "you can't know that..." implies 'I know that: "You can't know that..."'

I would agree, with the exception that making any kind of statement about the validity of logic and inductive reasoning has to be taken as valid a priori, because otherwise a meaningful conversation could not even take place.  You can't discuss things rationally with a person who doesn't believe in rationality because you have no common ground.

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The Huxleyan Agnostic has to say "I know all possible arguments for and against the existence of God, and none of them work one way or the other."

No, he only has to say that of all possible gods, some of them are unknowable, because it is the unknowable one that could be the "true" god.  Agnostics always leave the door open for anyone who wants to provide proof of the truth of their assertion.
 1. ex: the Halting problem over all Turing machines
 2. the Goedel Incompleteness Theorem
 3. the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: mango on March 24, 2011, 05:32:44 PM
Thanks for the reply xphobe. Great to hear your thoughts on this.
Quote
So if a god is defined as the superset of all things, knowable and unknowable, then by definition gods are unknowable in their entirety
That is a true conditional. But then the Agnostic argument for
  3. gods are unknowable in their entirety
has to start with the premise
  1. a god is defined as the superset of all things

But then you are frontloading Pantheism or Panantheism in your argument. For example, I would contend that defining god as the "greatest possible being" would be a valid interpretation of some forms of Monotheism. But being the "greatest possible being" does not necessarily mean being a superset of "all things." (And, technically, would a "superset of all things" not also be in danger of containing that dubious set of all sets that do not contain themselves?)

Furthermore, the conclusion of the argument is somewhat trivial. Very few theists would claim that gods are knowable "in their entirety." Now, surely we can know some things of the "superset of all things," so we could know something about God, even on your definition.


I completely agree with you about reason, logic, and being able to communicate in language!

Quote
of all possible gods, some of them are unknowable, because it is the unknowable one that could be the "true" god

I agree that there are possible unknowable gods. I still don't think a strong agnostic claim of "You cannot know if God exists"? Gets any help from this. For as soon as we admit that there are possible knowable gods (or even that there possibly are possible knowable gods) we would have to admit that "It is possible to know if God exists"

I am interested to hear more on this. Right now I am still not sure how the agnostic claim is any more interesting than saying "I don't know what time it is"  though.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: xphobe on March 27, 2011, 05:26:18 PM
But then you are frontloading Pantheism or Panantheism in your argument.  For example, I would contend that defining god as the "greatest possible being" would be a valid interpretation of some forms of Monotheism. But being the "greatest possible being" does not necessarily mean being a superset of "all things." (And, technically, would a "superset of all things" not also be in danger of containing that dubious set of all sets that do not contain themselves?)
Yes it would.  Paradoxes are inherent in dealing with "omni-"anything beings.    Such paradoxes are one reason why some strong atheists feel they can make the claim that gods cannot exist.  I'm not quite there yet, but I respect their view.

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Furthermore, the conclusion of the argument is somewhat trivial. Very few theists would claim that gods are knowable "in their entirety." Now, surely we can know some things of the "superset of all things," so we could know something about God, even on your definition.

Strictly speaking, it could be argued that we cannot know anything at all with 100% certainty (although such an argument could not claim to be 100% certain).  But in a practical sense, there are things we can know.  Are any of these things aspect of God?  Who knows?  Are all of them?  If you're a Pantheist they are.

But you seem to be a Monotheist.  So God to you is the greatest possible thing, which sometimes interacts with the Universe but which is somehow distinct from it.  btw I use the word Universe here to mean everything that exists.

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I completely agree with you about reason, logic, and being able to communicate in language!
Good, although if you didn't agree it wouldn't make any difference.

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I agree that there are possible unknowable gods. I still don't think a strong agnostic claim of "You cannot know if God exists" gets any help from this. For as soon as we admit that there are possible knowable gods (or even that there possibly are possible knowable gods) we would have to admit that "It is possible to know if God exists"

I do not admit that there are possible knowable gods.  There may be possible unknowable gods, but then ... how could we know?Furthermore, I contend that it is wrong for anyone to claim that there are knowable gods.  This is the essence of the strong agnostic claim.

Quote
I am interested to hear more on this. Right now I am still not sure how the agnostic claim is any more interesting than saying "I don't know what time it is"  though.

Agnosticism is more like saying "It is not possible to determine what time it is."   It does have more value than "I don't know what time it is", which can be remedied by looking at a clock.  And as a matter of fact, after Einstein published his work on Special Relativity, the question "what time is it" took on a whole new meaning, depending on the inertial reference frames being considered.  I don't want to get too far off-topic, but inside a singularity not only do we not know what time it is, but it is impossible for us to know.  Agnosticism again, and it is very interesting indeed.

Sorry this conversation is so drawn out.   I'm in the middle of a big project and I have to sneak in Internet time whenever I get a few minutes.

I want to finish with this thought.  Let's say a god did choose to make some of itself knowable.  How could we know how much we knew?  How could we know that what it chose to show us was true?  Mathematically speaking, if the total possible amount of knowledge about a thing is infinite (because that thing is infinite), and the amount you know is at the most X, then what you know about that thing is X/infinity, or, effectively, nothing.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: NihilNominis on March 29, 2011, 10:53:09 PM
Jesus Christ.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: xphobe on March 29, 2011, 11:11:14 PM
^ That's not a position, that's a name.  Well, technically, a name followed by a title.  Sort of like "Magnum P.I." only with longer hair and a less macho mustache.

Or maybe it's an exclamation, but in that case it's normally punctuated with an exclamation mark.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: GamerGirl on March 29, 2011, 11:40:05 PM
Jesus Christ.

Pater noster, qui est in caelo...
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: shazundies on April 14, 2011, 07:39:12 PM
I chose missionary.  I believe I am here on a mission. 
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: xphobe on April 14, 2011, 07:43:25 PM
^ Is it a nocturnal mission?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Shamael on April 18, 2011, 06:15:30 AM
I am atheist since my low age, but I am a curious person and it occupied me to find out the reality about what god is.
I find it funny to hear, "do you believe in god or do you think god exists, a question that very recently a freemasson asked to me. And my usual answer is, "tell me first what you mean by god, what is god in your point of view, and I will tell you".
So, i have spend my time to peel the scriptures like a onion and I found the evidence that god is a reality, and, it is in the same way than
1+1=3. The whole religion is a cloak, there is a part visible and a part hidden and a part somewhere in the heavens. The visible Part is the toilet cover and religion preaches it's wisdom. And, note all that in 10000 years a toilet cover will still look like ... a toilet cover.
But, read between the lines in the scriptures and you'll find out. All good things are 3, and all those that read the bools stick on one and forget the other 2 and that's why they kill each other, hate each other, destroy all around them for something horribly ridiculous, a story of the Good Ol Dumb Man in the clouds. Oh, and by the way, God is just a Camel, sitting in an Oasis in front of a waterhole and looking at the eyelet of a needle to pass trough it when the time comes that the door opens.  But, don't tell anyone  &)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: frofrodajimmyboy on April 18, 2011, 12:33:26 PM
Gnostic Atheist about Bible God.   Agnostic about the rest.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: relativetruth on April 18, 2011, 12:56:19 PM
This thread has correctly pin-marked status (or whatever the term is).
But ONLY because of the poll or is it something else?
Is there a way of separating the vote part of the thread from the dialogue? Especially such old dialogue.
I agree the current method of allowing any member to create threads and polls must still be maintained.

BUT this poll is so interesting should it not be part of the sign-on procedure. It is so easily done.
The debate can come afterwards.

PS..

I was thinking of PM.ing an admin but I was confused as to which admin I should approach.

PPS..

I approve of admins identifiyng themselves via there usernames.



Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Persephone on April 18, 2011, 10:36:55 PM
I am atheist since my low age, but I am a curious person and it occupied me to find out the reality about what god is.
Young people can figure this out. My 9yo daughter decided on her own that no gods exist and her reasoning is remarkably sound for a kid.

As for the OP, I'm an agnostic atheist. #6 on Dawkins' scale.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: garysmith on April 24, 2011, 10:33:05 AM
I selected agnostic atheist.  What I think is that the likelihood of the existence of god(s) is on par with the likelihood that Bigfoot lives in Oregon.  It's possible... 8)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Persephone on April 24, 2011, 12:40:16 PM
I selected agnostic atheist.  What I think is that the likelihood of the existence of god(s) is on par with the likelihood that Bigfoot lives in Oregon.  It's possible... 8)
Just like it's possible that I'm really Angelina Jolie. She is I am an atheist, right?  ;)

Welcome! I'm new here, too. Now that you have made three posts you have magic powers: you can upload an avatar, and you can bless or smite people with the rating system.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: xphobe on April 24, 2011, 02:20:34 PM
Just like it's possible that I'm really Angelina Jolie. She is I am an atheist, right?  ;)

Hey Ang!  How are Brad and the kids?

I selected agnostic atheist.  What I think is that the likelihood of the existence of god(s) is on par with the likelihood that Bigfoot lives in Oregon.  It's possible... 8)

I've always identified that way too, for the same reasons.  But since joining the board, I have become fascinated with (and a little envious of) the so-called "strong atheist" position held by a few members here. 

If we assume that God is defined as a being infinite in every possible way, then wouldn't such a being's very existence be a logical impossibility?

Here's an example: God can do anything.  Can he set up conditions such that there would be something he can't do?  If he cannot set up those conditions, then he can't do everything.  That's a long-winded version of "Homer's Paradox": Can God microwave a burrito so hot that even He can't eat it?  (Even Flanders admitted that was a diddly-doozy)

Related to that is the famous Epicurean Dilemma: "Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?"   This would seem to indicate that the very existence of an omnipotent God is a logical impossibility.

There might be non-omnimax gods, limited somehow in ability, or in time and space.  Since the Universe is infinite (or if you prefer, finite but unbounded), there would be no way for us to disprove such beings' existence, but then if they are not omimax, it could be argued that they are not gods at all but merely very powerful beings.

Finally not all non-zero probabilities are equally likely.   We live our lives based on our assessment of those probabilities.  For example, it's possible that all the air molecules in the room I'm in might suddenly all exit the window and I'd suffocate.  Not very likely, though, and I don't spend any time worrying about it.  On the other hand, my chances of winning the Lottery, though low, are much higher, so I might go down and buy a ticket now and then.  In theory, one must be agnostic about any statistical event that hasn't occurred yet.  In practice, not so much.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Lisa on April 25, 2011, 09:37:38 AM
I selected agnostic atheist as well as agnostic deist because i waiver back and forth.  Sometimes I feel as if there has to be a being that started all of this.  Although our lives are of no importance to him/her.  Or if they are, he or she has a really sick sense of humor.  But for the most part, I believe that it makes more sense that there is no god. 
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Sergio on April 30, 2011, 07:13:59 AM
I am not Socrates but I'm intelligent enough to know that "all I know is that I know nothing". There may be a "God" but since there isn't any proof and belief in its existence is bringing nothing but problems to humankind I would rather leave this question unanswered. If "God" really exists and I get close enough I will kick his divine butt and ask some serious questions though  >:(.

Agnostic Atheist it is.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: rEaLhEaThEn on May 06, 2011, 05:17:31 PM
I wouldn't say that I'm a gnostic atheist, but I know there is certainly evidence that points towards the nonexistence of a god. It is impossible to prove there is absolutely not one.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Emily on May 06, 2011, 05:44:59 PM
It is impossible to prove there is absolutely not one.

And if there is one he doesn't give a damn about his creation so he leaves us to our own devices. He's probably forgotten all about us, actually.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: ljudgmentday on May 06, 2011, 07:09:45 PM
the end of atheism
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Alzael on May 06, 2011, 07:18:26 PM
I have removed ljudgementdays first post for being completely off-topic. Not to mention a blatant attempt at trolling, spamming the forum, and nothing more than a hate-filled rant.


ljudgementday. This is a discussion forum. Not a place to simply speak out about whatever you want. If you want to engage in honest discussion then you are welcome. However bigoted and hate-filled rants are not.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: ljudgmentday on May 06, 2011, 07:21:10 PM
I have removed ljudgementdays first post for being completely off-topic. Not to mention a blatant attempt at trolling, spamming the forum, and nothing more than a hate-filled rant.


ljudgementday. This is a discussion forum. Not a place to simply speak out about whatever you want. If you want to engage in honest discussion then you are welcome. However bigoted and hate-filled rants are not.



but you're an idiot,  and we're having trouble deciding whether you live or die....
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Alzael on May 06, 2011, 07:23:12 PM
I have removed ljudgementdays first post for being completely off-topic. Not to mention a blatant attempt at trolling, spamming the forum, and nothing more than a hate-filled rant.


ljudgementday. This is a discussion forum. Not a place to simply speak out about whatever you want. If you want to engage in honest discussion then you are welcome. However bigoted and hate-filled rants are not.



but you're an idiot,  and we're having trouble deciding whether you live or die....

No, I am quite confident in my own mental capabilities actually. A pity you lack the power to say the same.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Azdgari on May 06, 2011, 07:41:41 PM
Alzael, it's Dennis Markuze.  He's been doing this for years.  No attempts to meaningfully communicate with him have succeeded in the past, and yours won't succeed now.

Here's a pic of him, by the way:

(http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/upload/2010/10/dennis_markuze_exposed/crazy-fucker-dennis-marcuze-thumb-400x684-56525.jpg)

He's mentally ill, and has been stalking PZ Myers (that's what he was doing, at an atheist convention, when the above pic was taken)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Alzael on May 06, 2011, 07:48:07 PM
I am aware of this. Hence why I have not actually tried to communicate with him.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Azdgari on May 06, 2011, 07:52:32 PM
Ahh.  I mistook your initial mod-post as an attempt to communicate.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Alzael on May 06, 2011, 08:03:26 PM
Ahh.  I mistook your initial mod-post as an attempt to communicate.

Not really. It was more my attempt at talking to him like a proper mod and not being mocking or condescending as I would normally be if I were speaking in normal mode.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: xphobe on May 06, 2011, 08:08:52 PM
On the other hand, if you really want to contact him...

Try his used computer/monitor store
997 Decarie
St. Laurent
Montreal Quebec H4L 2J7
514-337-7479

Or maybe his home
2872 Rue Werbrouck
Montreal Quebec H4R 2J3
514 836 2456
514-923-8293


Just trying to be helpful ...  &)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Graybeard on May 06, 2011, 08:34:41 PM
If you didn't catch him first time, try these:

http://www.aboutus.org/UsedMonitorShop.com#-

# +1 514 831 6506
# Fax: +1 603 215 0400

markuze@UsedMonitorShop.com

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Alzael on May 06, 2011, 09:09:13 PM
On the other hand, if you really want to contact him...

Try his used computer/monitor store
997 Decarie
St. Laurent
Montreal Quebec H4L 2J7
514-337-7479

Or maybe his home
2872 Rue Werbrouck
Montreal Quebec H4R 2J3
514 836 2456
514-923-8293


Just trying to be helpful ...  &)

I would, but he'd just get me dirty.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: mram on May 06, 2011, 11:28:50 PM
I wonder if he'll buy all these nifty extraordinary scooty dooty good old fashioned and blessed by Jesus computer parts I dug out of a church dumpster about 6 years ago.  :angel: AND they're here in Texas so you know they're extra blessedTM!
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Quaddawg on May 26, 2011, 09:49:26 AM
I chose Agnostic Pantheist...     It most closely resembles where I am right now.

but, in choosing that answer, I shy away from the actual word "god"   I certainly don't worship god, or pray to god. To me, those things don't make sense in any logical way...   

however.....

I have experienced things in my life that make me think that there MAY be something going on with this whole "existence/consciousness thing" ha.... or maybe it was just the acid?


that being said, I also chose "I AM a god"    :o


My 78 year old father has recently "been saved"  and I don't know why this saddens me.... perhaps because most of his life, he seemed logical and intelligent....  and now this...  :'(

Oh well, the inner search continues,  why do we seek to find meaning in the first place?

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Persephone on May 26, 2011, 10:05:05 AM
I chose Agnostic Pantheist...     It most closely resembles where I am right now.
I was a pantheist for years, masquerading as an evangelical. I even converted to Catholicism in early adulthood as a pantheist.  ;D

Quote
I have experienced things in my life that make me think that there MAY be something going on with this whole "existence/consciousness thing" ha.... or maybe it was just the acid?

that being said, I also chose "I AM a god"    :o
*spew coffee*


Quote
Oh well, the inner search continues,  why do we seek to find meaning in the first place?
Self-awareness comes at a price. When you're aware of your own Self, invest a lot into life, and know that death awaits, it naturally follows that there "ought" to be a purpose to all of it. We want to attribute more meaning to our lives than that of animals and rocks and trees. It's hard to come to the realization that life's meaning comes entirely from what we do with it.

BTW, welcome Quaddawg. You should post an intro and tell us more about yourself.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Quaddawg on May 26, 2011, 10:11:05 AM
Thanks...

I will post an intro when the powers that be decide I have made three quality posts...  lol... and to be honest, I am not entirely sure I can do that!

 ;D
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Persephone on May 26, 2011, 10:11:53 AM
Thanks...

I will post an intro when the powers that be decide I have made three quality posts...  lol... and to be honest, I am not entirely sure I can do that!

 ;D
? You don't have to wait to post an intro, do you? I didn't.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Quaddawg on May 26, 2011, 10:14:37 AM
I didn't even check to see....   I have this weird compunction to read rules... I am trying to break the habit...


•Please do not use other's Introduction threads to make your own introduction. If you have not reached 3 post-count required to start new threads, please wait until you do before introducing yourself in this section. Introductions in other's threads may be deleted without notice.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Quaddawg on May 26, 2011, 10:30:51 AM
Well, shazam....  you were right... intro made...    ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Suzy on June 13, 2011, 10:38:07 AM
I'm an atheist regarding the Christian God and every other religion's God that I know (Allah and so on). I'm an agnostic regarding a deistic God, but I'm leaning towards atheism there as well.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on June 17, 2011, 01:11:06 PM
I'm an atheist regarding the Christian God and every other religion's God that I know (Allah and so on). I'm an agnostic regarding a deistic God, but I'm leaning towards atheism there as well.

The Christian deity, Allah, and the Jewish deity, are all the same deity.

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Azdgari on June 17, 2011, 02:03:00 PM
^^ Except for the ways in which they're not.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on June 17, 2011, 02:05:04 PM
^^ Except for the ways in which they're not.

Only in the sense, I feel, in which the individual religions worship and/or praise said deity but the OT is basically the Torah (minus some books) and the Qu'ran has much of what the Torah and the New Testament has (and some of the Old) with a few differences etc., but it's still the same deity, I feel.  As a Muslim friend of mine said once, "We all come from Abraham..." or some shit like that.

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: voiceofgarth on June 18, 2011, 01:04:52 PM
I voted as a gnostic atheism. Until someone can PROVE me wrong, this is the only position to take. The belief in god has led to nothing positive. I also do not believe one has to quantify religious extremeism. As soon as somebody believes there's an invisible man monitoring his/her daily activities...this is Extreme in and of itself!
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Samuelxcs on June 29, 2011, 05:58:56 AM
I voted for gnostic deist - I know for certain that there is a god that started the universe but does not actively meddle with it or us. I also voted for Missionary and 'so many choices (karma sutra)'.
I believe even if a 'God' did create us and the universe, etc, that 'God' is a flawed God. God would be an imbecile to be whatever God is, hiding and letting someone called Jesus to come to Earth and convince others to believe in a 'God'.

Anyone could do that, even I could do that! Just go into hiding then pay someone to go round telling people to believe that I exist. Why would anyone want to do that anyway? Why not show yourself to everyone if you are their creater? Maybe it would be because God wants people to believe in whatever God is on their own, becoming known to them might make them believe because they might be afraid of God. Humans are stupid, if 'God' exists, God is stupid too. Hi God :)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: AileFatale on July 10, 2011, 01:12:18 AM
I consider myself agnostic atheist.

However, I also clicked gnostic. I believe there is sufficient evidence against the "man in the sky" definition of god (e.g. the Christian / Jewish / Muslim god) to proof that one does not exist. The logical problem of evil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil) alone essentially disproves this form of deism.

Regardless, I acknowledge that no one can possibly know for a fact that there is no sort of higher power whatsoever. So I have to believe, from what any normal person can gather, that if there were in fact some kind of deity, it must simply not be meddling with our universe, whether to alter it in any way, or form personal relationships with humankind, nor possess the human qualities we identify with most gods; the need to be worshiped, jealousy, wrath, regret, sorrow, empathy or love toward Earth. This type of deity I cannot argue against, as it doesn't seem to defy logic or common sense, it could very well seem possible, and yet, there is still no reason to believe it exists. Let alone reason to call it God.

To play around with the idea a bit more, say the answer lies in everything, and maybe energy is the closest thing we have to a "god", as it thrives in all things and it cannot be created or destroyed. Makes sense enough, and I pulled it straight out of my ear. &)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Samuelxcs on July 11, 2011, 09:11:24 AM
66 people clicked on "I am a god!  [checks self in mirror and grins]" haha :)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Eloi McQueequog on July 13, 2011, 05:54:19 PM
(http://scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts/atheist_chart.gif)
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Atheist_vs._Agnostic (http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Atheist_vs._Agnostic)


Judgmental.  Try operating on a basis of not knowing before you judge.  Certainty is easy.  All you have to do is close your mind
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Eloi McQueequog on July 13, 2011, 06:20:46 PM
I am a gnostic polytheist, but to me, the term "gods" and "idols" are homonyms, and I know that idols exist, and are capable of causing human action.  Denying the existence of idols can get you killed. 

I agree this makes the term "gods" virtually meaningless.  For most practical purposes of discussion, it is.

However, I said I was an “ignostic” deist.

I am agnostic in the sense that the subject is unfalsiafiable, but I put ignistic instead because I was limited to three choices, and, as a buddhist, was entranced at the notion of meaningless concepts, but...
I said “theist” because I am of the unfalsifiable opinion that nothing started the universe “but does not actively meddle with it or us”, and I worship nothing.  I believe nothing is god.

This could make me a nihilist, but I am not a gnostic fanatic about it.  I am just existentially gnauseous.

There were too many choices, so choice # 3 had to be Kama Sutra.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Azdgari on July 13, 2011, 06:38:15 PM
Judgmental.  Try operating on a basis of not knowing before you judge.  Certainty is easy.  All you have to do is close your mind

How is Hermes' guide to useful terminology judgmental, certain, and/or closed-minded?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Eloi McQueequog on July 13, 2011, 07:04:11 PM
Agnostics are either "weak" in that they don't know, or "strong" if they know why they don't know.  I am a strong or radical agnostic.  Gods of many sorts are unfalsfiable, including pantheism.  I am such a strong agnostic I am "ignostic" in the moderator's terms, as I know the concepts, like all concepts not demonstrated in reality, are semantically "meaningless"
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Azdgari on July 13, 2011, 07:07:21 PM
Was that intended to be a response to my query?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Eloi McQueequog on July 13, 2011, 07:10:19 PM
Judgmental.  Try operating on a basis of not knowing before you judge.  Certainty is easy.  All you have to do is close your mind

How is Hermes' guide to useful terminology judgmental, certain, and/or closed-minded?

It was judgmental by calling the agnostic position weak instead of moderate, and calling certainty strong.
Certainty and close mindedness were intended as rhetorical demonstrations, which may be seen as ad hominem attacks.
I am a strong or "radical agnostic".  I have scars of belief and from belief.  I did not earn my philosophy easily.  And I don't know, so I think.
Sorry I took offense about being called weak.  Sorry if anyone took offense at being called judgmental.  Sorry if anyone thought I called them close minded.  But you must admit, language makes us certain we are speaking the truth.  It works even with actors and conmen.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Azdgari on July 13, 2011, 07:14:51 PM
"Weak" refers to the strength of certainty.  Agnosticism may not be weak, but it does result in weakness of certainty.  That's not a bad thing.

You're a bit touchy, eh?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Eloi McQueequog on July 13, 2011, 07:22:09 PM
"Weak" refers to the strength of certainty.  Agnosticism may not be weak, but it does result in weakness of certainty.  That's not a bad thing.

You're a bit touchy, eh?

Yeah, my computer keeps crashing.  I am desperately posting between crashes, and taking out mu frustrations now in the blogoshere.  I think I mayt be the most belligerant buddhist I know.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: ctrpapa on July 22, 2011, 08:11:01 PM
 8)

4 (0.5%)

okay who are the other 3?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: ctrpapa on July 22, 2011, 08:13:37 PM
Yeah, my computer keeps crashing.  I am desperately posting between crashes, and taking out mu frustrations now in the blogoshere.  I think I mayt be the most belligerant buddhist I know.

i like reading your posts eloi and think you are at least consistent in what you allow in as "reality" -- great stuff i can tell you put a lot of time and thought into what's really important
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Overmannr on July 25, 2011, 05:44:06 AM
The phrase I use is "free thinker" I read an awful lot and every so often I come across some evidence that I cannot explain- I become some sort of deist until I learn a little more and revert back to to wiser sort of atheist. though I may be an atheist today there is no guarantee I will be such tomorrow. I have no commitment to either side but I feel very strongly that evidence on either side should not be dismissed until properly assessed- It just so happens that the atheists are much better at the debate and have about %95 of the evidence on their side
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: The Wannabe on August 14, 2011, 06:11:33 AM
Hey everyone, i'm pretty new to this whole philosophy thing but i'm wanting to further enlighten myself ;D  An agnostic monotheist probably best describes my position as of now.  I was raised as a protestant and only for the last couple years have i really begun to critically critique my beliefs and the beliefs of those around me.  Just bought the Portable Atheist on my kindle to try and get a taste for the counter arguments to theism and it's been a very intriguing, if not frightening, read.  Many of my preconceived notions regarding religion, God and the human condition are being uprooted.  Good stuff.  So i'm basically here to learn, and more then likely relearn, all i can from my fellow members on this forum.  I look forward to many stimulating and thought provoking conversations here, cheers!
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: curiousgirl on August 14, 2011, 11:02:40 PM
Many of my preconceived notions regarding religion, God and the human condition are being uprooted.  Good stuff.  So i'm basically here to learn, and more then likely relearn, all i can from my fellow members on this forum.  I look forward to many stimulating and thought provoking conversations here, cheers!

Wow! I am new to this forum and you just described exactly what I am going through! I consider myself an agnostic monotheist currently, but I am slowly drifting toward agnostic athiest. My husband is actually an agnostic athiest who helped me question my Christian roots because I have always felt guilty whenever I tried to ask questions that challenge Christianity on my own, as if I were some sort of heretic. Also, some of my Christian family and friends seemed irritated with me whenever I would ask a lot of questions that the bible did not seem to answer, especially when I would question "God's plan".
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Alzael on August 14, 2011, 11:20:09 PM
Many of my preconceived notions regarding religion, God and the human condition are being uprooted.  Good stuff.  So i'm basically here to learn, and more then likely relearn, all i can from my fellow members on this forum.  I look forward to many stimulating and thought provoking conversations here, cheers!

Wow! I am new to this forum and you just described exactly what I am going through! I consider myself an agnostic monotheist currently, but I am slowly drifting toward agnostic athiest. My husband is actually an agnostic athiest who helped me question my Christian roots because I have always felt guilty whenever I tried to ask questions that challenge Christianity on my own, as if I were some sort of heretic. Also, some of my Christian family and friends seemed irritated with me whenever I would ask a lot of questions that the bible did not seem to answer, especially when I would question "God's plan".

Welcome to the forum. Feel free to wade into some of the fray that goes on around here. We'll do our best to help with whatever questions you need answers to.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: curiousgirl on August 15, 2011, 12:33:16 AM
Welcome to the forum. Feel free to wade into some of the fray that goes on around here. We'll do our best to help with whatever questions you need answers to.

Thanks for the welcome! One question that I have for anyone who voted gnostic is why they would vote that way rather than agnostic, and what evidence or experiences are they basing their knowledge on? I am not saying that a gnostic position is a right or wrong position to take in this poll. I am simply someone that is trying to gather evidence for or against the existence of God, so I would love any replies from those of you that have reached a conclusion in their minds about that subject.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: screwtape on August 15, 2011, 10:50:03 AM
One question that I have for anyone who voted gnostic is why they would vote that way rather than agnostic,

Insecurity.  Self deception in service of faith.  Sort of like how the guys who are the most vocal about hating faggots turn out being closet homosexuals.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: curiousgirl on August 15, 2011, 01:54:56 PM
Insecurity.  Self deception in service of faith.  Sort of like how the guys who are the most vocal about hating faggots turn out being closet homosexuals.

I think I would have to agree with you on this one. I was raised as a good Christian girl that proclaimed to know that God existed, but deep down I really was insecure about it. Now, in my early 20s, I am starting to realize that I may have been brainwashed. The answers that I receive for certain questions like, "Why does God allow suffering?" from Christian friends and family are usually, "I don't know, but you have to trust God's plan." or, "Even though we don't understand it, you just need to choose to have faith in God." How can I choose to have faith in God when I have no evidence pointing to his existence? If they can't answer my questions, how do they know that they can even have faith in God, who may or may not exist? I feel like I trusted my elders because, hey, they have already experienced life, so they know what they are talking about, right? WRONG. This is a frustrating and scary time for me in my life, figuring out that something I based all of my actions and thinking on may not exist. I hate being in this state, but I feel like at least I have finally summoned up the courage and mental clarity to question the existence of God, even if it damages my relationships with certain family members and friends.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: The Wannabe on August 15, 2011, 07:44:16 PM
I think I would have to agree with you on this one. I was raised as a good Christian girl that proclaimed to know that God existed, but deep down I really was insecure about it. Now, in my early 20s, I am starting to realize that I may have been brainwashed. The answers that I receive for certain questions like, "Why does God allow suffering?" from Christian friends and family are usually, "I don't know, but you have to trust God's plan." or, "Even though we don't understand it, you just need to choose to have faith in God." How can I choose to have faith in God when I have no evidence pointing to his existence? If they can't answer my questions, how do they know that they can even have faith in God, who may or may not exist? I feel like I trusted my elders because, hey, they have already experienced life, so they know what they are talking about, right? WRONG. This is a frustrating and scary time for me in my life, figuring out that something I based all of my actions and thinking on may not exist. I hate being in this state, but I feel like at least I have finally summoned up the courage and mental clarity to question the existence of God, even if it damages my relationships with certain family members and friends.

Hi Curious Girl, while i can empathize with your frustration, just because your friends and family don't have answers to your questions does not mean there are no answers out there.  There are several brilliant theologians, who may or may not be delusional, who have tackled some of the hard questions pertaining to God's existence and his "plan".  Here's a link showing Ravi Zacharias, one of todays top dogs in christian apologetics, lecturing on some of these issues: http://www.youtube.com/rzimmedia  Hope this helps!
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: curiousgirl on August 15, 2011, 08:58:07 PM
Thank you for the link to Ravi Zacharias, Wannabe! I am agnostic, so I am definitely open to listening to what both theists and atheists have to say, as long as it is logical.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: dullhawk on August 23, 2011, 01:06:24 PM
While there may be beings somewhere in the Universe who, through evolved abilities or technological advances, might have abilities that seem to fit the general notion of "god/s", I think- no, I KNOW that they and their abilities could be explained by the real laws of physics without needing to invoke magic.  Even if no human understands the laws of physics that are being used.

That puts me squarely in the "I know there are no gods" camp.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Vanilla Shiva on September 05, 2011, 04:23:15 PM
 
Fascinating.
I must say this is the first poll of it's kind that I've witnessed at an atheist forum.

I marked, "atheist pantheist". Mainly because I do not accept that any religions notion of deity exists.
I think if the concept of "god" entails the characteristic afforded in being a supreme (to humans) being, then it is nigh on impossible for the limited human intellect to conceive, much less be inspired by, as many missionaries of the inspired doctrine(s) avow, that superior consciousness.

It would be tantamount to a gnat understanding what I'm saying when I swat at it and say, get away! When I'm on my deck being bothered by it's incessant flyby's.

On the other talon, I do see everything that exists as part of the energy, the power, that manifests all that exists. Be it atomic energy, or the components within string theory, particle physics, etc... As, those forces are superior to what we can fully comprehend as our sciences continually evolves in understanding of them, due to new discoveries related to them. And beyond.
As one physicist that I recently heard speak of black holes said, what they're now discovering about these giants within our universe can not even be explained by the traditional "laws" of physics.
And as such, if what theists believe is god is in part defined as creator of all that is, was or shall be, then using that nomenclature, I can say I see "god" as power and energy related to the atomic beingness that is me and the world I think I see as solid, right before my eyes.

But that's just an illusion.
And I appreciate that.  :angel:
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: rickymooston on September 15, 2011, 08:40:15 PM
I'm a spiritual atheist. When I discuss the 'spiritual", I'm discussing something very physical that some people believe isn't material. One can think of the wind, we don't see it and so we sometimes think its not part of our material world but now we know better.

I've had some deep connections to some religions that did believe in the supernatural and some of them still "speak to me". In particular, I had intense spiritual connections to the temples of Taoism I saw in China.

Mostly, I believe in the material world. I'm unsure how to postulate any other kind. I get the idea about sign posts and certainly find some theist arguments convincing.

I believe there is clear design in the universe and intelligence. We evolve and we are intelligent. Many aspects of evolution have evolved intelligence. The process is very interesting. I suspect science hass just began to open the walnut
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: rickymooston on September 15, 2011, 08:41:43 PM
Thank you for the link to Ravi Zacharias, Wannabe! I am agnostic, so I am definitely open to listening to what both theists and atheists have to say, as long as it is logical.

wel;come

ravi is fun but his arguments fail badly; particular the morality argument.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: curiousgirl on September 16, 2011, 09:05:30 AM
wel;come

ravi is fun but his arguments fail badly; particular the morality argument.

Yes, I checked him out on Youtube and it didn't do anything for me.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: The Wannabe on September 16, 2011, 04:33:34 PM
wel;come

ravi is fun but his arguments fail badly; particular the morality argument.

Yes, I checked him out on Youtube and it didn't do anything for me.

A friend from church recommended Ravi to me.  From what i saw, he was the best that christian apologetics has to offer in regards to the moral argument.  The more i watched his videos, however, the more i came to realise this "moral argument" he was championing was full of more holes then a spaghetti strainer.  In the long run, he didn't do much for me either.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: rickymooston on September 16, 2011, 06:06:31 PM
A friend from church recommended Ravi to me.  From what i saw, he was the best that christian apologetics has to offer in regards to the moral argument.  The more i watched his videos, however, the more i came to realise this "moral argument" he was championing was full of more holes then a spaghetti strainer.  In the long run, he didn't do much for me either.

The moral argument would be a lot stronger if it wasn't for the existance of other civilizations with ... morals. What's most annoying is the false dichotomy between "personal morality" and religious morality
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: kaziglu bey on October 09, 2011, 06:09:19 PM
I have noticed many people here saying that it is not possible to be a gnostic atheist, because it is not possible to know that there are no gods. Could anyone explain to me why this is not possible? I am afraid that I do not understand.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: b2 on October 13, 2011, 03:27:21 PM
 :) I am a Christian. I am saved by the blood of Jesus Christ.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: naemhni on October 13, 2011, 04:38:48 PM
:) I am a Christian. I am saved by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Hi, b2, welcome to WWGHA.  I hope you find your stay here an enjoyable and informative one.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: b2 on October 13, 2011, 08:44:17 PM
Thanks pianodwarf....you a keyboard player?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: naemhni on October 14, 2011, 06:49:37 AM
Thanks pianodwarf....you a keyboard player?

I am not.  I am also not a dwarf, being five foot eleven (or 180 centimeters if you swing that way).  The story behind my nick is a long one.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: yokcos700 on October 15, 2011, 06:34:52 PM
I have noticed many people here saying that it is not possible to be a gnostic atheist, because it is not possible to know that there are no gods. Could anyone explain to me why this is not possible? I am afraid that I do not understand.
I think it's quite possible to know that there are no gods. A god, by definition, is omnipotent (I am unsure whether this is true or not) and omnipotence is impossible.
Simply ask: Can God, or any omnipotent being create a rock so heavy that even he cannot move it? If he can create this rock, then he cannot move it, therefore he is not omnipotent. If he cannot, then obviously, this means he is not omnipotent.
Therefore, there can be no god (So I'm a gnostic atheist.)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Albright412 on October 16, 2011, 02:36:51 AM
Iam an Agnostic atheist, Thanks for the post
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Samuelxcs on October 17, 2011, 11:13:25 AM
*looks at list* There are 70 Gods?!  :o
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: wintercreeks on October 24, 2011, 11:54:04 AM
My religious position is to let every man, woman and child know that God is Real. To do that, I have the responsibility to show the same God that is real, really cares. To show that God really cares requires me to adopt the same attitude as the One I follow.  The One I follow, though the world was made through Him, took upon Himself the attitude of a bond servant, becoming obedient unto death on a cross. To show that God really cares requires that I become His feet, hands and voice in this world.  The great question cannot be answered via human logic. God is beyond human reason. Religion is the feeble human attempt to explain the God who is beyond human understanding.  The Great Question - "Is God Real?" http://www.wintercreeks.biz/is-god-real.php   :)
 
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: screwtape on October 24, 2011, 11:57:33 AM
The great question cannot be answered via human logic. God is beyond human reason. Religion is the feeble human attempt to explain the God who is beyond human understanding. 

Then you are worshipping ignorance.  And you are claiming to understand something you also claim is not understandable.

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Samuelxcs on October 24, 2011, 12:13:02 PM
The great question cannot be answered via human logic. God is beyond human reason. Religion is the feeble human attempt to explain the God who is beyond human understanding. 

Then you are worshipping ignorance.  And you are claiming to understand something you also claim is not understandable.

Another contradiction! :o
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Zankuu on October 24, 2011, 12:20:42 PM
My religious position is to let every man, woman and child know that God is Real. To do that, I have the responsibility to show the same God that is real, really cares. To show that God really cares requires me to adopt the same attitude as the One I follow.  The One I follow, though the world was made through Him, took upon Himself the attitude of a bond servant, becoming obedient unto death on a cross. To show that God really cares requires that I become His feet, hands and voice in this world.  The great question cannot be answered via human logic. God is beyond human reason. Religion is the feeble human attempt to explain the God who is beyond human understanding.  The Great Question - "Is God Real?" http://www.wintercreeks.biz/is-god-real.php   :)
 

Hello there. Maybe make a thread in the introduction section and go a bit into detail about yourself so we can properly welcome you?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Hatter23 on October 26, 2011, 02:40:04 PM
My religious position is to let every man, woman and child know that God is Real. To do that, I have the responsibility to show the same God that is real, really cares. 

No, in order to show me your god is real, what you have to do is show me some evidence, objective evidence.
Objective evidence that isn't an appeal to ignorance, doesn't involve special pleading, circular reasoning...or any logical fallacy.

I give it to you:

(1)Define God. Do not use weasel words or circular definitions.
(2)Prove that that definition is not a logical paradox
(3)Show proof that differs from the other ten thousand dieties man
has worshipped, again without committing a logical error

Until you do those three things....your worship of that deity is the intellectual equivalent a gibbering tribal primitive bowing before their god, UGABUGA.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: plethora on October 27, 2011, 07:31:16 AM
@wintercreeks

Why do you believe in that particular god? What is the reason you hold that belief?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: screwtape on October 27, 2011, 07:43:31 AM
This is not a debate thread.  If you would like to discuss why people believe (or don't believe) what they do or do not believe, start a new thread or join an ongoing one.  And introduction thread for wintercreeks would be a good place to start.

thanks

Moderator Screwtape
 
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: fishjie on November 17, 2011, 04:13:15 PM
ROFL I picked missionary because it is the best position for sex.   nothing is more intimate and wonderful then staring into your lover's eyes as you enter ......

oh and i'm also an agnostic atheist because i guess i cannot know for 100% certainty that god is imaginary.

Also when I did online dating I picked "spiritual but not religious".   that's a pretty fuzzy term, but I like to go on hikes a lot, and there is nothing I love more than taking in the grand splendor of Nature as you are surrounded by a forest that is centuries old, with majestic mountains looming before you, and a pristine lake undisturbed by civilization.    So I get this strong spiritual feeling whenver I'm out in the wild.    This is especially strong at night when I can see all the stars.     But I do not worship Nature.   I just think she is beautiful.     
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: KISSME on November 20, 2011, 10:21:18 PM
Just did the survey…

Born on a Christmas day, surrounded by nuns, Janis Joplin, priests, and Jimmy Hendrix. Always thought that I was treated differently. Wonder why!

I keep a copy of the bible and use it as a door stopper, if only to help me remember of what it was like.

Today I’m an Atheist.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: zerwwgha on November 21, 2011, 10:01:36 PM
What? You don't expect Christians to come to this forum? That's not biased or anything.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Zankuu on November 21, 2011, 10:12:37 PM
What? You don't expect Christians to come to this forum? That's not biased or anything.

gnostic monotheist = Christian
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: JeffPT on November 21, 2011, 10:31:09 PM
What? You don't expect Christians to come to this forum? That's not biased or anything.

Welcome to the forum zerwwgha.  Starting off with a misguided sarcastic quip derived solely off of an embarrassing inability to read the different categories carefully is a poor way to start.  Perhaps you should try again? 

We invite and encourage Christians to come to this forum.   
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: zerwwgha on November 22, 2011, 12:24:35 AM
Hmm I have limited privileges on how I can communicate! Help me out someone... please. I promise I'll be nice during debates. So far I can't create new threads or send private messages.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: rev45 on November 22, 2011, 12:26:35 AM
^I'm not sure about PMs, but a member can start a thread after they have 3 posts.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Graybeard on December 18, 2011, 04:51:24 PM
What? You don't expect Christians to come to this forum? That's not biased or anything.
Welcome. It's not that we don't expect the religious of any persuasion to come here, but given title of the forum, a lot are  unable to think of a reason why God should not heal amputees and therefore go off and continue spouting inanities to like-minded godbothers so that no one actually questions their (as yet unsupported) belief.

We await the arrival of a religious person who will come and give the answer to the question WWGHA? If you feel you can attempt this, please read some of the posts, so as to avoid duplication.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Dilaram on January 14, 2012, 06:48:48 AM
I am a deity soul, God is The Supreme Soul simply because God is a soul identical to us however God never owns a corporeal form, Body Human... God however does borrow a human body and has been coming to earth re-creating heaven on earth once again for the last 75 years. Proove this experientially here www.bkwsu.org for your self... or not.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: monkeymind on January 14, 2012, 07:50:23 AM
You prove it.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: screwtape on January 14, 2012, 08:31:24 AM
I am a deity soul, God is The Supreme Soul simply because God is a soul identical to us however God never owns a corporeal form, Body Human... God however does borrow a human body and has been coming to earth re-creating heaven on earth once again for the last 75 years. Proove this experientially here www.bkwsu.org for your self... or not.

Hi Dilaram,

welcome to our forum.  please note, the green text indicates I am acting as a moderator. 

So far in both your posts you have made some claims and then linked a website.  This is a discussion forum, so the expectation is that you discuss, not just link.  If you continue to just link that site, it will appear that you are spamming us and that is not allowed.  So please read the Rules (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,17005.0.html) and be more engaging.  Thanks.

Regards
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: godfree on January 30, 2012, 03:15:59 AM
Hi all , just joined , I have been fighting what seemed like a lone battle for years ,
So I am delighted to find a site claiming as I do that we can prove god does not exist ,
I'm currently the Author of a several threads , Atheists vrs Skeptics ,,Life After Religion ,
and more currently ,Science fiction or fact ,
I can't persuade any of the people on that site , that we can prove god doesn't exist ,
and there are people claiming to be Atheists ,,??? I just don't get that ,
so I'm trying to get them to explain ,what would they consider proof ,
and they havn't offered an answer yet .
I agree with the green moderator , just posting web addresses doesn't address the issue,
especially for people on dial-up , the last thing we want to do is go browsing again ,
it's so slow we don't usually bother , proof there is no god , for starters , it's impossible ,!!!
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Augusto on February 24, 2012, 01:36:17 PM
First post, I think I would like you guys to share your position since I'm a little bit confused about God's existence/non-existence. So far I think He should exist.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on February 24, 2012, 01:54:22 PM
Augusto

Welcome. Most of us here are some version of atheist. We come in a variety of flavors, depending on how sure we are that there is no god. Me? I'm onion/very hot jalapeno flavored, because I'm as sure there is no god as the other atheists will let me be. I'm so sure some atheists think I overstate it.

You say you think he should exist. Heck, even I think there SHOULD be a god. A real nice one. Not all hidden and mystical and hard to get along with. One that is informational, and forgiving. And fair. And fun to invite to parties. However, no matter how much I think there should be a god, that doesn't make it happen. I also think I should win the lottery, but that has no effect on the outcome. Thinking there should be a god doesn't make it so.

You might ask yourself why the existence of a god is of import to you. And why the version of god you believe in is so different that the gods many others believe in. And presumably similar to many others as well. The christian god, if that is your favorite kind, comes in many flavors, just like we atheists. His one book is subject to thousands of different interpretations, something sort of hard to understand, if he is indeed omnipotent. All the omnipotent types I've ever known were much clearer about their intentions than the christian deity.

And you might ask yourself why you would come here. Is it because you are sure there is a god and want to enlighten us, or is it because you have doubts and want to understand why others don't believe, just in case we're right? It doesn't matter which stance you have right now, but it might help you to know what it is so you can discuss things more clearly.

Again, welcome. Enjoy the site.

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Ate The Ism on February 26, 2012, 03:23:59 PM
Militant Atheist. I am open-minded, though no creationist I've ever heard of has made any sort of valid argument. Until a creationist does I think I'll stay on the "dark side"  ;)

It's worth mentioning that no one is born a theist and that until you are told there is a god you do not believe there is a god. God didn't create man in His image, man created god in his image.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on February 26, 2012, 03:41:20 PM
Welcome Ate The Ism. Great name.

From one militant atheist to another, I salute you. ;D

Enjoy the show.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Ate The Ism on February 26, 2012, 04:09:18 PM
Thank you ParkingPlaces, I feel extremely comfortable with the crowd here.

WWGHA (the optical illusion video) was the eye-opener (appropriate because I didn't actually denounce until extensive research of religious texts) I needed to cast aside faith in exchange for reason and logic.

 It's a small token of gratitude coming from an equally small human being but to all the atheists that are tired of religious absurdities and atrocities, thank you.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on February 26, 2012, 04:17:25 PM
I'm pretty sure I got the impression somewhere on this forum that there was no such thing as a militant atheist. So, you two might qualify for some sort of federal protection or funding...you might want to look into that.

Serious question...what is it that makes you "militant"? and why is it worthy to ridicule a theist who warns that there is such a thing as militant atheism?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Azdgari on February 26, 2012, 04:24:05 PM
"Militant" just happens to be an unfortunate word, due to the imagery it brings up.  Here's what you get when you Google-Images the word "Militant":

(http://vkb.isvg.org/@api/deki/files/1316/=fatah_al_islam__-_hooded_militant.jpg)(http://www.topnews.in/files/Manipur-Militant.jpg)
(http://previous.presstv.ir/photo/20101213/shafabakhsh20101213084708140.jpg)(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Palestinian_militant_with_rifle.png)
(http://www.independent.ie/multimedia/archive/00148/rifle_148226t.jpg)(http://www.armybase.us/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/a-taliban-militant-smiles-as-he-holds-his-weapon-outside-the-mosque-where-tribal-elders-and-the-taliban-met-in-daggar-buners-main-town-pakistan-thursday-april-23-2009.jpg)

...well, you get the idea.  Not exactly the best image for public relations.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Ate The Ism on February 26, 2012, 04:38:03 PM
I'm pretty sure I got the impression somewhere on this forum that there was no such thing as a militant atheist. So, you two might qualify for some sort of federal protection or funding...you might want to look into that.

Serious question...what is it that makes you "militant"? and why is it worthy to ridicule a theist who warns that there is such a thing as militant atheism?

"Militant" is an unfortunate word, I agree with Azdgari. I call myself a militant atheist to illustrate my certainty and my activity. I could say gnostic, but I choose to use militant because of its definition, though when regarding religious beliefs they do not differ much.

Maybe you could clarify a bit on what problem you have with the position?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on February 26, 2012, 04:38:59 PM
@ Azdgari

Right, that's the image that pops into my head whenever someone describes themselves as militant. I was just wondering if Ate The Ism and ParkingPlaces were trying to be ironic or if they view themselves as actually "militarized".

Considering how much negative PR their is surrounding atheism, it strikes me as a terrible joke.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Azdgari on February 26, 2012, 04:42:58 PM
Thing is, there are other words that would work.  "Activist atheist" or "political atheist" or "anti-theist" - these all have their pros and cons, but at least they don't conjure up the image of a Taliban insurgent.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Ate The Ism on February 26, 2012, 04:43:09 PM
@ Azdgari

Right, that's the image that pops into my head whenever someone describes themselves as militant. I was just wondering if Ate The Ism and ParkingPlaces were trying to be ironic or if they view themselves as actually "militarized".

Considering how much negative PR their is surrounding atheism, it strikes me as a terrible joke.

Militant atheism's use can be seen as a response to the dangers of ever having a god. Hitchens (rip) illustrates this idea in much depth. Evil mostly exists because god "exists." How else would you convince someone to sacrifice themselves or mutilate children?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on February 26, 2012, 04:47:17 PM
How else would you convince someone to sacrifice themselves or mutilate children?

Create conditions of severe poverty combined with no education, add a dash of ideological indoctrination then spread the word that you can provide a little financial comfort to your family if you just blow yourself up in a bazaar for Allah and viola! 
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: monkeymind on February 26, 2012, 05:31:16 PM
Well, we have folks here that refer to themselves as baby eaters, so I didn't take militant too seriously, Eat.

But yeah bad images associated with that word. Put those two together and you have fightin' words in some circles.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Ate The Ism on February 26, 2012, 05:39:44 PM
Militant is not militarized.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: monkeymind on February 26, 2012, 05:55:12 PM
Welcome! BTW. Ate The Ism

Post in Introductions if you'd like the official welcome wagon.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Azdgari on February 26, 2012, 06:16:33 PM
Militant is not militarized.

Who claimed it was?  Which point was this intended to address?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on February 26, 2012, 07:21:41 PM
@ Azdgari

Right, that's the image that pops into my head whenever someone describes themselves as militant. I was just wondering if Ate The Ism and ParkingPlaces were trying to be ironic or if they view themselves as actually "militarized".

Considering how much negative PR their is surrounding atheism, it strikes me as a terrible joke.

Don't worry. I'm not armed. Unless you count my brilliant mind and rapier-quick wit.

Which is useless if I try to be too nice.

I was mostly joking. I'm adamant as hell but not mean about it. Not counting Augusto.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Ate The Ism on February 26, 2012, 08:50:21 PM
Militant is not militarized.

Who claimed it was?  Which point was this intended to address?

I was just wondering if Ate The Ism and ParkingPlaces were trying to be ironic or if they view themselves as actually "militarized".

I suppose you missed this comment. I was merely pointing out that by militant I did not mean armed, as mentioned by monkeymind (thanks for the welcome btw, I will post in introductions immediately  :D)

I won't be using militant anymore, though I am having trouble with changing a correctly used word because the media has instilled it in people's minds that in reference to Al-Qaeda is the only acceptable use of the word. They do not refer to themselves as militant, by the way, though Christians do.

I hope I've made my opinion clear enough, and as I've mentioned will now call myself an active gnostic atheist to avoid any confusion in the future.

I sincerely apologize for any offense as it was unintentional.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: monkeymind on February 26, 2012, 08:57:07 PM
^^^^As a Baptist we used to sing Onward Christian Soldiers, marching off to war, with the flag of Jesus going on before.

Theists consider that they are in a battle. So THAT's offensive to me!
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on February 26, 2012, 09:01:15 PM
^^^^As a Baptist we used to sing Onward Christian Soldiers, marching off to war, with the flag of Jesus going on before.

Theists consider that they are in a battle. So THAT's offensive to me!

I used to find myself humming that song years after I quit going to church. But I just realized I've forgotten all but the first two lines. This aging thing isn't so bad after all.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Ate The Ism on February 27, 2012, 12:03:01 PM
My best friend is Baptist and I used to go to church with him all the time and I always hated the songs. I do sometimes envy the naive, isn't ignorance bliss?

[EDIT] I was a believer back then too, one of those "Yes I know what is said but that's not what is meant!"
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: monkeymind on February 27, 2012, 12:05:59 PM
What? You didn't like...What can wash away my sins. Nothing but the blood of Jesus...No other fount I know, that can wash me white as snow...nothing but the blood of Jesus.



ADDED: Oh Yeah ..my (favorite) religious position is the Missionary Position.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: freakygin on February 28, 2012, 10:01:54 PM
Hello, i'm still new in this forum.

The only reason i go to church is because the girl i like is in there.

Other that that. I would say "F*ck this shit".
I really want to throw my shoe over to those priest bastard.
Who keep brainwashed the girls.
Then makes them say "I only want to go out with people with the same religion"
WHO THE F*CK came up with that idea anyway?
I would love to bitchslap them.

And with my luck, any girl i had history with is ALWAYS a fanatics.


Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: orpat on February 29, 2012, 02:12:24 AM
GOD IS I ;)

GOD IS MY WILLPOWER

GOD IS MY CAPACITY

GOD IS MY CAPABILITY
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: monkeymind on February 29, 2012, 08:41:13 AM
God is my crutch!
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: GodlessHeathen on March 12, 2012, 12:39:12 PM
While I chose agnostic atheist, I think I actually fall somewhere in between gnostic atheist and agnostic atheist, leaning toward gnostic (in other words, I am almost certain that there is no god).
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: mdforseth on March 21, 2012, 05:25:55 PM
I've enjoyed referring to myself as a "rational positivitist" over the years, it forces my inquiring audience to think a little.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: mdforseth on March 21, 2012, 05:28:40 PM
Oops, correction: positivist.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: GodlessHeathen on March 22, 2012, 10:43:11 AM
I find the high percentage of gnostic atheists interesting. Just curious, how do you "know"?

Did God tell you? LOL!!  ;)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: kaziglu bey on March 22, 2012, 11:59:55 AM
I find the high percentage of gnostic atheists interesting. Just curious, how do you "know"?

Did God tell you? LOL!!  ;)
I think that it has more to do with degree of certainty. I mean, I am quite certain that there is no God of any kind. I admit however that I can't really KNOW that it is true. In the sense of what I believe, there sis no God, but I know I can't prove it. Just like I can't disprove unicorns. That doesn't mean that I consider unicorns or God to be likely at all. Just unprovable. I originally voted gnostic atheist but changed to agnostic just for the sake of intellectual honesty.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: GodlessHeathen on March 23, 2012, 05:11:18 AM
I think that it has more to do with degree of certainty. I mean, I am quite certain that there is no God of any kind. I admit however that I can't really KNOW that it is true. In the sense of what I believe, there sis no God, but I know I can't prove it. Just like I can't disprove unicorns. That doesn't mean that I consider unicorns or God to be likely at all. Just unprovable. I originally voted gnostic atheist but changed to agnostic just for the sake of intellectual honesty.

I've used a similar argument against theists who think that somehow because I do not claim to know that there is no God that I must believe in God at least "a little." Ever the optimists, they are. :)

To me, a god who makes itself completely absent from its creation is no more worthy of belief than a god that does not exist - the end result in my life being exactly the same.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Jesuslovesus on March 23, 2012, 10:50:28 PM
This website is terrible. If you hate Jesus and God, go complain on a blog. Don't hate on people who love and believe in them.
I am very religious, and I hate this website. I despise the maker of this website.
Jesus is busy. Some people don't really need help. Doctors can help them. Not all of them are religious, so they don't pray for him. Maybe it's part of God's greater plan.
Don't question the God who loves us.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: jetson on March 23, 2012, 11:01:45 PM
This website is terrible. If you hate Jesus and God, go complain on a blog. Don't hate on people who love and believe in them.
I am very religious, and I hate this website. I despise the maker of this website.
Jesus is busy. Some people don't really need help. Doctors can help them. Not all of them are religious, so they don't pray for him. Maybe it's part of God's greater plan.
Don't question the God who loves us.

Seriously?  That's all you have to say to the members?  I think you can do better...
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Aaron123 on March 23, 2012, 11:02:36 PM
Welcome Jesuslovesus... I think.

This website is terrible. If you hate Jesus and God, go complain on a blog. Don't hate on people who love and believe in them.

We hate Jesus and god about as much as we hate Santa Claus.  That is; not much at all.  It's reeeeeeeeeeeeally hard to hate someone when they're fictional characters.


Quote
I am very religious, and I hate this website. I despise the maker of this website.

I'm pretty sure there's something in the bible about loving others.  I'm pretty sure Jesus said something about loving others.

Just saying...


Quote
Jesus is busy.


With what?


Quote
Some people don't really need help.
Who are these people you refer to?Doctors can help them. Not all of them are religious, so they don't pray for him. Maybe it's part of God's greater plan.


If you're refering to the central question about amputees, then you've missed the point entirely.


Quote
Don't question the God who loves us.

This sounds the same to us as "don't question Santa Claus, whom gives us presents".  It's pretty goofy to suggust that we don't question a fictional character.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: kaziglu bey on March 23, 2012, 11:06:58 PM
This website is terrible.
No it's not. The God described in the Bible is terrible.
Quote
If you hate Jesus and God, go complain on a blog. Don't hate on people who love and believe in them.
Look Einstein, this is an ATHEIST FORUM. We'll hate on Jesus and God all we want here, thanks.
Quote
I am very religious stupid
There, fixed that for ya.
Quote
and I hate this website.
Then go away.
Quote
  I despise the maker of this website.
How Christian of you.
Quote
Jesus is busy.
How do you know? Does he forward you a copy of his Outlook schedule every week? 
Quote
Some people don't really need help.
You are not one of those people.
Quote
Doctors can help them.
Yep, they have meds that can reduce delusions like yours.
Quote
Not all of them are religious, so they don't pray for him.
Is this supposed to be a meaningful sentence?
Quote
Maybe it's part of God's greater plan.
Just like how human sacrifice is part of God's greater plan?
Quote
Don't question the God who loves us.
If he loved us, he would have no problem answering sensible questions.

Epic fail on your first post. Jesus must be so proud  &)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Zankuu on March 23, 2012, 11:11:33 PM
This website is terrible. If you hate Jesus and God, go complain on a blog. Don't hate on people who love and believe in them.
I am very religious, and I hate this website. I despise the maker of this website.
Jesus is busy. Some people don't really need help. Doctors can help them. Not all of them are religious, so they don't pray for him. Maybe it's part of God's greater plan.
Don't question the God who loves us.

Can I assume you won't be sharing more about yourself and getting to know little old me a little bit better?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on March 23, 2012, 11:51:11 PM
If you hate Jesus and God, go complain on a blog.

Error correction here. We don't hate jesus or god. Neither exist. We're just not al that excited about the way that people who think both are real behave. In general, they are of course good people. Until they start supporting the likes of George Bush and Rick Santorum. Then they are in crazyville and I don't like it.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: wright on March 24, 2012, 12:09:30 AM
This website is terrible. If you hate Jesus and God, go complain on a blog.

As others have noted, the atheists here don't hate fictional characters.

Quote
Don't hate on people who love and believe in them.

When those believers engage in hateful, condescending and divisive behavior and speech, then they deserve an appropriate level of contempt and opposition. Especially when they shove their belief into places where it isn't welcome.
 
Quote
I am very religious, and I hate this website. I despise the maker of this website.

Your privilege. Don't let the virtual door smack your intolerant virtual fanny on the way out.

Quote
Jesus is busy. Some people don't really need help. Doctors can help them. Not all of them are religious, so they don't pray for him. Maybe it's part of God's greater plan.

The usual lame apologetics from someone who hasn't thought through the implications of their religion.
 
Quote
Don't question the God who loves us.

If there's a god who loves us, it has yet to reveal itself. The god of the Bible certainly doesn't do any such thing; just read it. In the US, one is free to critique fiction, and the Bible is certainly that.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: rickymooston on March 25, 2012, 12:13:17 PM
I despise the maker of this website.

Why?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Tero on March 25, 2012, 12:34:05 PM
We bring you news of joy! You are not going to hell.

The rest is irrelevant.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: screwtape on March 26, 2012, 08:22:45 AM
I am very religious, and I hate this website. I despise the maker of this website.

Matthew 5:43-45

And I guess your hatred is making us blessed, if Luke 6:22 is to be believed.

People like you make baby jesus cry.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: PsychedelicHippie420 on May 19, 2012, 01:47:23 AM
i was watching this thing called spirit science and it had a really good theory about human history... im not for organized religion, and i dont really believe that "god" exist at least not what the idea of god is today... for someone to say that god does exist for certain if foolish, and for someone to say that god doesnt exist at all is very foolish because we dont know, and we never will until we die. im very against organized religion.  but i also do believe that people have freedom and we should do what we want as long as we know we're doing good and we dont hurt others. i think the concept of heaven and hell is wrong as well and has been twisted up as time went by...  im spiritual, not religious. (;
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: screwtape on May 19, 2012, 08:23:44 AM
hi hippie

Welcome.

and for someone to say that god doesnt exist at all is very foolish because we dont know, and we never will until we die.

You will probably catch some flak for that statement.  Let me ask you a related question to give you some idea of our perspective - can we say for certain that Zeus or Thor do not exist?  If so, why not yhwh?

i also do believe that people have freedom and we should do what we want as long as we know we're doing good and we dont hurt others.

You are probably going to catch some flak for that one too.  I do not think it is that simple.  You know, back in 2001 there were 19 men who thought they were "doing good" by flying 4 airplanes into our buildings.  How does that tie in to your position?


Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: BaalServant on May 19, 2012, 09:19:18 AM
For some reason, I haven't come across this thread particular thread until now.

I answered, "agnostic atheist - I do not know for certain, but I think there are no gods."

I do have to qualify this with the statement that I do fully believe that none of the gods that have ever been posited exist, due to the simple fact that every aspect of reality has shown any claim about them to be false.

The only reason I can't honestly select, "gnostic atheist - I know for certain that there are no gods," is because I can't honestly claim to know for a fact that there's not an invisible omnipotent teapot named Kurt Russell orbiting the planet.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: AshleyMB on May 19, 2012, 12:02:12 PM
I chose agnostic atheist, even though everything inside of me really wanted to choose gnostic atheist. While I feel very strongly that there definitely aren't any gods or goddesses, I could never say for certainly certain. Unless he decides to reveal himself at some point.....which.....yeah.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on May 19, 2012, 12:39:04 PM
Welcome PhychedelicHippie420 and AshleyMB.

As yet another agnostic atheist, I have no reason to suspect otherwise because all we have are stories. All religions have stories. So I am an agnostic atheist for each and every one. I'm not prejudiced.

As AshleyMB said, if the dude shows up, that is one thing. Until he does, I am what I am.

And of course he won't. So I really am what I am.Probably more so than I realize.  ;D
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: AshleyMB on May 19, 2012, 12:50:48 PM
Thanks PP! I was going to make an introduction post, but saw in the rules that I had to post something meaningful three times before I could create a post, so here I am. Figured this was probably the second best post to start with.  :)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: meconopsilo on May 22, 2012, 03:27:54 PM
i strongly believe that any idea of a being higher than the self is completely irrationally ridicoulos. screw god and yalls stick man. not saying i can fart sparkles like jesus or anything but i sure can believe in my self. btw it matters not if anyone agrees or disagrees. were all going to die anyways. lol.
Title: "god" blows
Post by: meconopsilo on May 22, 2012, 03:36:16 PM
why does your god , so called christian allow children to be molested and brutally beaten unto death ? why doesnt your "god" care ? for if he was so loving would he not hold even his closest "child" when they were in pain ? NOPE !!!!! bc guess what ! reality check. "god" is a mythical being and only that. which is why i go to my local library and place every "bible" into the "fiction" section. makes since .
but seriously if there were a god it would not be such a dick to just let its own creations suffer so horrificly.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Quest_4_Absolute_Verity on June 06, 2012, 03:41:01 PM
Not ideal ... but it's up here again!

Let the voting begin!
wow... No wonder the world is a hopeless wasteland of spiritual confusion! I just signed up and this is the first post I came to so thought I would vote. Well Agnostic Atheist would be the closest selection for my current belief although I'm open to anything based on fact. When looking @ your list and reading most debates on religion  it is no wonder the Atheist movement is having trouble getting off the ground. Most people pick the wrong battle so to speak. Why debate whether or not there is a god, deity, Creator which will most likely never be proven or disproved by science or mere mortals. Why not instead concentrate on proof that man created all religions on the face of the earth and man wrote the bible without revelation from a deity of any kind? If you could do this which should be possible then the masses are no longer blinded by faith and anything not to mention everthing is back on the table! So how should I vote not knowing if there was a Creator but 99.9% sure man created all religion and wrote the bible?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Emily on June 07, 2012, 06:39:16 PM
Why debate whether or not there is a god, deity, Creator which will most likely never be proven or disproved by science or mere mortals. Why not instead concentrate on proof that man created all religions on the face of the earth and man wrote the bible without revelation from a deity of any kind?

With one comes the other. After all atheists need a place to start the debate. An atheists by the very definition of the word believes there is no god and that is a perfectly good place to start the whole 'man created all religions' argument because it gives the christian, creationist, muslim, ::insert religious faith follower here:: and place to start that ::insert faith here:: was created and formulated by man and gullible people quickly followed that faith.

The debate needs to include one side arguing that there is no god. Then the debate can pick up momentum towards the bible and koran are all shitty books written for people who had little to no understanding of how the world really works. That the bible and the koran and all other religious text are all equally bullshit and that religion faith that that religious text proclaims is 'correct' is bullshit just the same.

Most is not all debates on this forum all have their own topic such as, Did Jesus Raise From The Dead (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,6776.0.html), William Lane Craig style debate (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,11160.0.html), Is god of the bible real? (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,21581.0.html), etc. Everything else is just conversation.

Quote
So how should I vote not knowing if there was a Creator but 99.9% sure man created all religion and wrote the bible?

Just as you claim you are: an agnostic atheist. Unless of course you are a deist whose god has no set rules and instruction for mankind to live up to, but does exist somewhere and doesn't promise eternal paradise or damnation for not giving it worship.

Welcome to the forum.

-Emily  :)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Quest_4_Absolute_Verity on June 07, 2012, 09:18:05 PM
Why debate whether or not there is a god, deity, Creator which will most likely never be proven or disproved by science or mere mortals. Why not instead concentrate on proof that man created all religions on the face of the earth and man wrote the bible without revelation from a deity of any kind?

Welcome to the forum

-Emily  :)
Thanks! I have lots of questions but from my understanding of the rules I can't post? So can I ask you a question since you seem to be a veteran here? I would like to know who is the author of GII.com and if he or she has any books available for purchase? Do you know of any other similar sites or books with potential proof man wrote the Bible. I do realize concrete proof probably doesn't exist but that is why I'm here nevertheless. THANKS
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Emily on June 07, 2012, 09:33:53 PM
Thanks! I have lots of questions but from my understanding of the rules I can't post?

You can create a topic after three replies in any current thread.
Quote
So can I ask you a question since you seem to be a veteran here? I would like to know who is the author of GII.com

Marshall Brain is the author (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Brain#Beliefs_and_interests)

 
Quote
Do you know of any other similar sites or books with potential proof man wrote the Bible. I do realize concrete proof probably doesn't exist but that is why I'm here nevertheless. THANKS


Read anything by Dan Barker[1] most notably Godless (http://www.amazon.com/Godless-Evangelical-Preacher-Americas-Atheists/dp/1569756775)
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Barker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Barker)
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: rickymooston on June 10, 2012, 08:15:48 AM
Why debate whether or not there is a god, deity, Creator which will most likely never be proven or disproved by science or mere mortals. Why not instead concentrate on proof that man created all religions on the face of the earth and man wrote the bible without revelation from a deity of any kind?

Welcome to the forum

-Emily  :)
Thanks! I have lots of questions but from my understanding of the rules I can't post? So can I ask you a question since you seem to be a veteran here? I would like to know who is the author of GII.com and if he or she has any books available for purchase? Do you know of any other similar sites or books with potential proof man wrote the Bible. I do realize concrete proof probably doesn't exist but that is why I'm here nevertheless. THANKS


Hi, its obvious that men wrote the bible and that tradition even apparently specifies who many of the men were. Even religious people believe this

The question is, whether or not, they were inspired by God.

A bizillion books exist on why atheists do not think the bible is inspired by God. Dawkins, Hitchens and numerous others are ones you can gander at.

Nobody can conclusively "prove" it to be false. They can show that some historical claims in it are untrue, that the narrative has similarities with other myths and that people often make stuff up about religions. They can also show cases where the church engaged in fraud such as fraudulant artificats.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Atheistisaweirdword on June 19, 2012, 08:15:18 AM
I'm surprised there are a lot of agnostic atheists, I understand even though I'm not agnostic at all. I guess that's due to the infinite regress? It's a paradox that is the ultimate conundrum that no one will ever be able to answer. But I find it indubitably easy to say there is no god, especially if humans dow recreate the big bang with the hadron collider, either was the infinite regress will always be there. For that I think there is no gods. Makes more sense than an intelligent deity made the universe. Just my opinion, wouldn't make sense to me if there was a deity that created the universe with ease, or even it would've been hard for that entity. The infinite regress makes it easier to cope with knowing something has always been, than believing that a 'god' has been around for ever, was just always there. Just my input on the subject or all the titled beliefs. Also, one thing I noticed that makes Christianity not ever valid is because there's no historical evidence, it's even more faulty than the show ghost hunter, where the guys pretend to talk to ghosts, making knocks, and people purposely falling down to act like an invisible ghost. It's testimonials just like the bible, accept we see the testimonials and just know they're false.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Graybeard on June 23, 2012, 12:06:17 PM
Nobody can conclusively "prove" it to be false.
A lot depends upon what you mean by prove. A man is convicted up proof. A theorem is established by proof. There are levels of proof.

Gods, whatever else they might be are not scientific entities/abstractions and therefore fall into the category of things, like a civil law case, that require to be proven one way or the other "on the balance of probability."

"On the balance of probability" there never were, are not and never will be any gods.

The main difficulty that the rational person has is finding out what a god is. You will not find two godbotherers of any persuasion who will be able to agree.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Humanoid on July 05, 2012, 02:06:29 PM
There was none that hit my case.. so I took agnostic deist. Which is propably more than I believe, but still the closest one.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: wright on July 05, 2012, 02:10:19 PM
There was none that hit my case.. so I took agnostic deist. Which is propably more than I believe, but still the closest one.

Welcome to the forum, Humanoid. Can you expand on that a bit? Is it that you think the universe has a creator now disinterested in it?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Humanoid on July 05, 2012, 02:17:09 PM
There was none that hit my case.. so I took agnostic deist. Which is propably more than I believe, but still the closest one.

Welcome to the forum, Humanoid. Can you expand on that a bit? Is it that you think the universe has a creator now disinterested in it?

I think that this world is result of physical laws. There is a possibility that there is a certain force ( lets call it God) that formed the physical laws. I do not know if I believe it or not. It is possible or it is not. I am questioning it.. and searching.

I used to be a christian, but I have lost my theological point of view to it.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Humanoid on July 05, 2012, 02:19:06 PM
I´m in a transition.

In faith I have more doubts than the facts. The only thing I fully trust is the scientific realm at the moment.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Kimberly on July 05, 2012, 02:40:27 PM
Humanoid

Thanks for your honesty. You will probably find that you will develop a more thorough idea of your ideology after spending some time here. I wouldn't worry too much about your specific label yet.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Humanoid on July 05, 2012, 03:28:15 PM
Humanoid

Thanks for your honesty. You will probably find that you will develop a more thorough idea of your ideology after spending some time here. I wouldn't worry too much about your specific label yet.

Thanks!

You know.. I wouldn´t worry about it either. I don´t like labels. Did the test just for fun.

I like the position I am right now. I am free of certain ideological thinking.. so I can explore freely.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: jetson on July 05, 2012, 08:00:39 PM

I am free of certain ideological thinking.. so I can explore freely.

That should be the default for all humans! Excellent.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Humanoid on July 07, 2012, 05:07:26 PM
It should be.. but it is dependign a lot of to what culture you are born.

If you are born to fe. a muslim society, you will unfortunately not have the luxury to explore freely.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: boobatuba on July 08, 2012, 12:48:44 PM
Former youth pastor (12 years) here that now believes firmly that not only is there no god, there never has been.

Thanks for the great forum and I look forward to many stimulating discussions!
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Zankuu on July 08, 2012, 12:58:57 PM
Welcome boobatuba. If you find the time feel free to start an Introductions thread so we can get to know you a bit.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: boobatuba on July 08, 2012, 01:29:59 PM
Welcome boobatuba. If you find the time feel free to start an Introductions thread so we can get to know you a bit.
Thank you, I will as soon as I reach the 3-post threshold. One to go!
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Humanoid on July 08, 2012, 05:04:34 PM
Former youth pastor (12 years) here that now believes firmly that not only is there no god, there never has been.

Thanks for the great forum and I look forward to many stimulating discussions!

Good coincident! I did also 12 years of youth ministry working as a youth counsillor for church.

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Emily on July 08, 2012, 07:08:00 PM
Former youth pastor (12 years) here that now believes firmly that not only is there no god, there never has been.

Thanks for the great forum and I look forward to many stimulating discussions!

Welcome to the forum, boobatuba.

It's great knowing that you were once a youth pastor. My father (and grandfather) is a Pentecostal preacher so when I hear stories about pastors becoming atheists I get all warm inside.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: lg12811 on July 24, 2012, 02:54:10 PM
This is my very first post and I'll probably do something wrong so apologies for my mistakes. I was born a nonbeliever because as a baby I didn't know about anything. I was raised by nonpracticing catholics who explained what God was and that I should follow. I did and even attended a catholic school going to church every Wednesday. I started to question God's plan and even his existence when I realized that I could confess my sins and be clean again for the price of 4 Our Fathers and 3 Hail Mary's. I am now in my 40's and I believe he doesn't exist. I know something created us because we are here. I don't presume to know what that was or why. I try to be a good person and take care of my family. My religious position is set to 0. No one has been able to prove to me without a doubt that there is a God that any religion subscribes to. Last week I was going to begin a journey trying to prove to the world that God does not exist and I came across this site. It's been done so i don't have to start. I love this site.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: JeffPT on July 24, 2012, 03:56:06 PM
Welcome to the forum, lg12811.  Good to have you with us.

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Quesi on July 24, 2012, 04:11:32 PM
Welcome lg12811.  I think you are going to find yourself in very good company here.  Lots of very smart people, who have also come to the conclusion that god does not exist, or were raised with that understanding of the world, as well as some theists.  And lots of people here who try to live good lives and take care of our families.  Probably, there will be gobs of scientists who are happy to point you in the direction of learning about the origins of life, and welcome you on this new journey in your life. 

In terms of doing something wrong, please take a little time to read how to do quotes and whatnot, and you'll probably mess up a few times before you get the hang of it.  In terms of saying something that rubs someone the wrong way, well, there are a lot of strong personalities here too.  But there is also a community of people who welcome you. 
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Kimberly on July 24, 2012, 04:33:28 PM
Welcome to the forum lg12811, it sounds like you are filled with enthusiasm and curiosity. I hope you find that our forum meets your needs.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: wright on July 25, 2012, 01:57:56 AM
Welcome, lg12811. One suggestion: use some line breaks in your posts; it makes them much easier to read.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on August 01, 2012, 07:41:36 PM
I finally voted as an Ignostic Atheist.

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Saurus on August 02, 2012, 10:52:40 AM
Hi, first post here. I've been lurking a bit and finally decided to make an account.

I voted as agnostic atheist, I'm pretty sure there are no gods but you could never really be sure. :)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: wright on August 02, 2012, 10:57:53 AM
Hi, first post here. I've been lurking a bit and finally decided to make an account.

I voted as agnostic atheist, I'm pretty sure there are no gods but you could never really be sure. :)

Welcome, Saurus.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Kimberly on August 02, 2012, 12:33:41 PM
Welcome to WWGHA Saurus, I hope you enjoy your stay.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: colin040 on August 22, 2012, 02:30:55 PM
Agnostic atheist would be the best description for me. I'm baptised and a protestant because of my mum. I'm not religious at all though. Mum is a ''christian'' but compared to ''real'' ones she'd be considered to be fake easily while dad is just an atheist. She told me that she only prays when she feels like it. I guess her faith simply could be considered to be very personal. She also said that she thinks people who rely of their faith all the time and finds that you at times must be realistic. Having that said I don't remember any religious things in my childhood at all. Mum said we used to pray sometimes but I can't remember it at all. I also think it's years that she prayed for something.

Oh and I'm new here. I hope I'll have a good time here! : - )
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Quesi on August 22, 2012, 02:49:41 PM
Welcome Saurus and colin040.  Look forward to hearing all about both of you. 
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Maverick on September 13, 2012, 06:30:23 PM
Hmmm . . .I certainly believe in a Creator of sorts (God, I guess) but I can't reconcile such a Creator with the tyrannical acts of the God of the Bible.  What does this say about my religious position?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Garja on September 13, 2012, 08:44:09 PM
Hmmm . . .I certainly believe in a Creator of sorts (God, I guess) but I can't reconcile such a Creator with the tyrannical acts of the God of the Bible.  What does this say about my religious position?

Deist maybe?  Usually implies that you believe that a 'god' figure created the universe, but remains largely aloof of human concerns and does not actively intervene in human lives.

Edited in error and then restored GB : (
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: none on September 14, 2012, 07:29:37 AM
Hmmm . . .I certainly believe in a Creator of sorts (God, I guess) but I can't reconcile such a Creator with the tyrannical acts of the God of the Bible.  What does this say about my religious position?
hehehe.
you are a theist if whatever god you believe in has human characteristics emotion/shape/form/gender/humor
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Graybeard on September 14, 2012, 12:50:49 PM
Quote
Hmmm . . .I certainly believe in a Creator of sorts (God, I guess) but I can't reconcile such a Creator with the tyrannical acts of the God of the Bible.  What does this say about my religious position?

Deist maybe?  Usually implies that you believe that a 'god' figure created the universe, but remains largely aloof of human concerns and does not actively intervene in human lives.
A good subject for a thread: Why would a god go to the trouble of creating a universe and all that is in it, and then clear off? Have they ever done this before? Will they do it again? Are they doing it now?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: naemhni on September 14, 2012, 01:03:30 PM
A good subject for a thread: Why would a god go to the trouble of creating a universe and all that is in it, and then clear off?

I can think of at least one good reason: just to watch what happens.

Have you ever seen those sand pendulum things?

(http://www.thegreenhead.com/imgs/sand-pendulum-2.jpg)

The way it works is, you hold the pendulum to one side of the tray, then let it go, perhaps with a slight sideways push so that when it swings back, it doesn't immediately swing back thru the middle of the sand.  Then, you just sit back and watch.  When the pendulum finally stops swinging around some minutes later, the result is some very intricate and beautiful patterns in the sand, which vary depending on how the pendulum's motion started.  This is just one possibility of many:

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3154/2738887435_5be18acef4.jpg)

It's quite fascinating to watch the various patterns appear, and there have been times when I sat with one for minutes turning into hours, just trying different ways of swinging the pendulum and observing the different patterns.  So there's one possibility, at least: the universe could be god's sand pendulum.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Nickolas on September 14, 2012, 01:21:29 PM
Must agree. To quote Dawkins on his 7 point scale:

"I'd be surprised to meet many people in category 7, but I include it for symmetry with category 1, which is well populated. It is in the nature of faith that one is capable, like Jung, of holding a belief without adequate reason to do so (Jung also believed that particular books on his shelf spontaneously exploded with a loud bang). Atheists do not have faith; and reason alone could not propel one to total conviction that anything definitely does not exist. Hence category 7 is in practice rather emptier than its opposite number, category 1, which has many devoted inhabitants. I count myself in category 6, but leaning towards 7-1 am agnostic only to the extent that I am agnostic about fairies at the bottom of the garden." (The God Delusion).

Interesting board.

I hate to pick nits, but as I have said in other threads, I'm a bit anal about one point: agnosticism is not "I do not know", but rather "It is impossible to know".  I am an agnostic atheist: It is impossible to know for certain whether a god exists, but I don't believe there is one.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on September 14, 2012, 07:16:57 PM
A good subject for a thread: Why would a god go to the trouble of creating a universe and all that is in it, and then clear off?

Or The Sims.

From a purely scientific curiosity it's fun to set up the parameters and the just sit back and watch what they do.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on September 14, 2012, 07:20:11 PM
I just realized that 24 people voted the same way I did[1]....WHO ARE YOU PEOPLE?!!

 1. agnostic pantheist
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Garja on September 14, 2012, 09:01:59 PM
yeah, but after a while you get bored and build walls around them and see how long it takes for them to starve to death......


holy crap, I just figured out sub-Saharan Africa!!!
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on September 14, 2012, 11:13:47 PM
yeah, but after a while you get bored and build walls around them and see how long it takes for them to starve to death......

Made me a nice grave yard that way and laughed as they constantly pissed themselves and passed out while standing up....is that sick?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on January 25, 2013, 03:05:41 AM
Astreja,

This is a continuing topic. Who cares if it's old. You may get a reply, then again...

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Hierophant on April 24, 2013, 04:25:43 AM
Not only am I a 7 on the Dawkins scale, but I don't see why any atheist would not be such (if not a 7, at least a 6.999... recurring). If you know there are no leprechauns, fairies or rock people (and that if we found evidence of something like them, we still wouldn't associate real-life facts with creatures of myth any more than we associate a picture of Jesus on toast with a real Jesus), and you understand gods as being mythical creatures, then you should also know there are no gods.

Even if we did find out that the universe has a creator, it would be an entity on its own right, with its own properties, not a mythical creature with human-invented properties.

To use an example to illustrate what I mean, we found out that sticking needles in people can have beneficial effects. But this does not prove or even count as evidence that acupuncture as a belief system, with its own pseudo-scientific premises, structure, etc is correct. It only proves that sticking needles in people can have beneficial effects. That is the only factual conclusion. Acupuncture was made up far before these experiments and, even if you assume that the phenomenon in question was the origin of acupuncture in some way, has no relation to that data.

Likewise, if a being came down to us and could rearrange the stars to spell its name, and we confirmed that this was no illusion of any sort (except of course projecting 3D space into a 2D image), I wouldn't assume that an imaginary entity "YHWH" has somehow sprung into existence, leaping from our minds to reality, and taking the exact form that we have imagined. That's not how reality works. Imagination is contained within our minds, it does not affect reality directly, only indirectly through our actions.

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: viocjit on May 03, 2013, 10:58:36 AM
I'm an Agnostic Christian.

What is it ? This is a person who don't know if Christianity is real or not.
I hesitate between Atheism and Christianity.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Jag on May 03, 2013, 11:16:18 AM
Hi there viocjit, nice of you to drop in!

The two don't really represent different sides of the same coin. Christianity is simply the belief in Jesus as the son of god of the bible (subject to, at a minimum, denomination-specific interpretation of said book), while atheism is the lack of belief in god of any sort.

If you are, in fact, an atheist, it will eventually become clear, if and when you realize that you don't actually believe a god. In the meantime. join in any of the discussions going on let us get to know you, and you, us. Welcome!
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Fenugeek on June 12, 2013, 08:50:34 AM
Hi, viocjit! Hi, everybody.

See that shift towards 28.3%? That was me. I probably won't say anything too edifying, but I'm here, vigorously making up the numbers.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: TripedalInstincts on August 25, 2013, 01:59:59 AM
There are some conceptions of God(s) that, by definition, certainly don't exist (like square-circle, married-bachelor definitions).

Other concepts of God(s) that I have come across are either a) ambiguous (e.g. "light", "energy", etc...) or b) describe something that already exist (e.g. "God is the universe"). These concepts are not convincing to me, yet I cannot say with certainty that these concepts are false; they are unfalsifiable.

Given this distinction, I am relatively certain that God(s) do not exist...hence agnostic atheism.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on September 06, 2013, 12:11:26 PM
Smurfs are the universe.

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Epistemolojesus on October 06, 2013, 10:39:39 PM
I'm not sure what my position is, according to these options, so it's good that I can select more than one. I suppose I am a gnostic monotheist and/or polytheist and/or pantheist. "In the beginning, there was the Word, and the Word was was with God, and the Word was God." God can be One, Many, or All, at His convenience (or at the convenience of whomever is speaking for Him).

Hello, by the way. I couldn't find a way to post in the Introductions forum, so I found this thread and replied to it, instead. Like many others, I've been lurking for quite some time, though it has been a while since I last lurked. Funny, the reason I finally decided to join isn't because I suddenly felt some compulsion to debate or spread some word or what have you, but because I realized lately that my writing skills have been dormant for some time. Why not take up some low-stress leisurely activity to exercise them? (I'm not claiming to be a great writer, just that I don't feel like I've kept up what I already have.)

You can see my moniker is a blending of "epistemology" and "jesus". Make of that what you will. You could say I'm on the far liberal end of the Christian spectrum, which I know can be frustrating for atheists, because my beliefs are not as easily nailed down as some of the fundies in your Mail Bag. (I also find them entertaining.) Maybe that means I just haven't thought about them enough. Maybe that means I'm just not honest with myself. Maybe that means they're still changing and evolving (shouldn't everything?). Probably a little of each. Guess I'll be forced to find out, if I continue to post!
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: William on October 06, 2013, 11:58:29 PM
Why not take up some low-stress leisurely activity to exercise them?

Writing skills are handy. But it's the clarity of thought that counts ... and I suspect that's really why you are here ;)   Enjoy the ride :laugh:

EDIT:  Don't be surprised if getting your beliefs "nailed down" turns out to be your own frustration :laugh:
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Zankuu on October 07, 2013, 02:33:07 AM
Welcome Epistemolojesus!
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Graybeard on October 09, 2013, 06:30:26 AM
... Maybe that means they're still changing and evolving (shouldn't everything?)

It depends who you ask. : )

Welcome. We look forward to your contributions on a belief system you have difficulty describing.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: wright on October 11, 2013, 11:32:08 PM
Welcome to the forum, Epi[1]. Your willingness to admit you still have more to learn puts you ahead of a lot of theists who post here; the reactionaries (mostly of the fundie Christian variety) tend to leave in a huff after a bit. It seems to be a rule of thumb that the less traditional a given believer is, the longer they tend to stay.
 1. Hoping you don't mind the contraction.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: wright on October 11, 2013, 11:33:10 PM
Welcome to the forum, Epj[1]. Your willingness to admit you still have more to learn puts you ahead of a lot of theists who post here; the reactionaries (mostly of the fundie Christian variety) tend to leave in a huff after a bit. It seems to be a rule of thumb that the less traditional a given believer is, the longer they tend to stay.
 1. Hoping you don't mind the contraction.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Epistemolojesus on October 12, 2013, 01:50:36 PM
Welcome to the forum, Epi[1]. Your willingness to admit you still have more to learn puts you ahead of a lot of theists who post here; the reactionaries (mostly of the fundie Christian variety) tend to leave in a huff after a bit. It seems to be a rule of thumb that the less traditional a given believer is, the longer they tend to stay.
 1. Hoping you don't mind the contraction.
Epi? Hmm, maybe EpiJ would be better. ;)

Well the Bible teaches that we are all flawed and fall short of His grace. The fundies have their interpretation of that and I have mine. Theirs probably involves eschewing knowing that appears to contradict what they believe the scripture says. I, however, don't believe that God wants a bunch of ignoramuses in Heaven singing songs to Him for eternity any more than any of us would want a city of gerbils squeaking at our feet forever and ever.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: screwtape on October 14, 2013, 10:56:57 AM
fall short of His grace.

What's that mean, specifically?

The fundies have their interpretation of that and I have mine.

Why is that?  Why are there alternative interpretations of divine law/ mandates/ will?  And how does one tell which one is correct?

I, however, don't believe that God wants ...

Why do you not believe that?  Why should anyone think your belief is correct?

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: RubyLeo on October 25, 2013, 01:52:16 PM
Hello all. This is my first post here, though I've lurked for ages and ages before finally registering. This poll was difficult for me because I want very much to be a deist.  But I had to follow my gut instinct and pick "agnostic atheist."

Not sure why I "want" to be a deist.  I guess because I used to be a christian and it is very, very, very difficult for me to really admit to myself that I just flat out don't think there is a god. Period.  It was hard enough saying goodbye to the comfort I found in christianity.  Meaning, I loved believing I had a "personal savior" who loved me and I could talk to all day.  It was difficult for me to let go of that, but it got to the point where I knew I was just faking it to make myself feel better. 

Then I took comfort in thinking, well there MUST be a god who started all of this. But s/he sure as hell isn't around to help any of us here on Planet Earth. 

I don't know.  All of this makes my brain hurt.  It's maddening. 

All I do know is that when I forced myself to pick the choice that most resonated with me, it was agnostic atheist.

I should feel liberated I guess, but I have to confess it makes me sad.  Like when I found out Santa wasn't real - it broke my heart.  I'm 43 now and feel the same way - how humiliating, lol.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to learning here, and getting to know others and their experiences/journeys.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Iamrational on October 25, 2013, 01:57:01 PM
Welcome Ruby. This forum is loaded with knowledgeable people and if you are debating any arguments in your head, feel free to type them here and we can maybe help. Be careful though because this forum can become addicting, for believers and non-believers.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: William on October 25, 2013, 02:07:12 PM
Like when I found out Santa wasn't real - it broke my heart.

Let me give you this comfort.  The best thing about popping the Santa bubble is that the true joy of gift giving and receiving can shine through.  I hated it when my daughter thought a gift (very carefully chosen by me) came from Santa!

It's the same with god belief.  Now when I do something kind I'm certain it really is me and not my fear of God. And the recipients who know my atheism know it's me and they thank me directly - not via god's fucking useless blessings.  Secular goodness has a lot going for it  - be happy :)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: RubyLeo on October 25, 2013, 02:39:39 PM
Thank you iamrational and william for your warm welcomes - much appreciated!

iamrational - it's OK by me to be addicted to this for now, I'm eager to soak in as much knowledge as I can.  Also, I'm recovering from major surgery and my laptop is now my personal savior, lol.

William - beautiful analogy re: the Santa bubble bursting.  So true.  Thank you for that comforting thought.

Now I just have to - eventually - stop pretending I believe in god.  Long story not meant for this particular board - I'll delve into it once I get to make my own post in the intro section.  It's freaking awful to feel like such a fake.  I don't go to church anymore but I don't "come out" as an atheist or even agnostic.  I just keep my mouth shut when people say they are praying for me or whatever (i.e., the recent surgery).  I give my surgeon 100% of the credit for the success of the operation, not god, by the way.  ;D

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: wright on October 25, 2013, 07:46:02 PM
Welcome to the forum, Ruby. Hope your recovery continues to go well.

iamrational - it's OK by me to be addicted to this for now, I'm eager to soak in as much knowledge as I can.  Also, I'm recovering from major surgery and my laptop is now my personal savior, lol.

Hope you don't have cause to regret that... we have Nam here after all  ;).

Quote
Now I just have to - eventually - stop pretending I believe in god.  Long story not meant for this particular board - I'll delve into it once I get to make my own post in the intro section.  It's freaking awful to feel like such a fake.  I don't go to church anymore but I don't "come out" as an atheist or even agnostic.  I just keep my mouth shut when people say they are praying for me or whatever (i.e., the recent surgery).  I give my surgeon 100% of the credit for the success of the operation, not god, by the way.  ;D

Looking forward to hearing about your journey towards atheism.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: RubyLeo on October 25, 2013, 11:42:17 PM
Thanks wright, I appreciate the welcome! :)

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: magicmiles on October 25, 2013, 11:47:18 PM
Welcome Ruby. I'm one of the few theists on the site, although I don't particularly like the term. I'm a Christian.

Hope you enjoy contributing to the forums.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: RubyLeo on October 26, 2013, 08:33:05 AM
Thanks magicmiles! I am looking forward to learning.  I hope to learn as much from both "sides" as I can!  :)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: shnozzola on October 26, 2013, 09:19:17 AM
Hi Ruby,
   As a fellow Christian (Church of the Brethren) and now agnostic atheist, the love and support of our collective fellow man is still the important thing as it could be in any religion.  There is absolutely no reason to be sad.  There is, however, every reason to continue dancing with reckless abandon.

(http://s.myniceprofile.com/myspacepic/1048/104855.gif)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on October 26, 2013, 09:44:46 AM
Welcome RubyLeo. l've been a non-believer far too long to personally identify with your sense of loss. I was just a kid when I figured it out and I was quite happy to get rid of that boogie man, so I never suffered any sadness.  But I certainly sympathize. Hopefully your participation here will help you come to terms with the change. Even though you'll have to deal with our quirks in the meantime.

We look forward to your contributions, and keep us updated on how you're progressing, non-god-wise.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: RubyLeo on October 26, 2013, 12:22:20 PM
Thank you shnozzola! Wise words.  And I love, love, love your dancing Snoopy!   ;D

ParkingPlaces - I'm very happy for you that you figured it out as a kid.  I was a total sheep. I'm so very proud of my oldest son, who, like you, figured it out and dealt with it way before I did. He had the courage/inner strength to question the crap out of his sunday school teachers, he would not accept their answers.  YAY for him - I wish I had been like that at his age!  We now love sharing agnostic/atheist books, quotes, memes, etc.!

I digress - bragging on my kid, what a cliche' - my point was I'm glad you were smart enough to shed the boogie man at a young age.  :)

I believe I will shed my sadness by being here, joining in with others who have dismissed the boogie man lie, feeling a sense of togetherness in that, and learning more every day.

Thanks again to you both for your welcomes.  :)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Ataraxia on November 04, 2013, 05:16:35 AM
I would have liked to have chosen at least one of the three below but the descriptions added don't match my position:

Quote
agnostic atheist - I do not know for certain, but I think there are no gods.

I don't know for certain, but I also don't think there are no gods.

Quote
ignostic atheist - While the concepts of god(s) are meaningless, it is likely that there are no gods.

While I've been introduced to a plethora of "Gods" that are meaningless, because of this I can't gauge the probability of their existence. Doing so itself, may also be meaningless.

Quote
apnostic atheist - I don't care if there are any gods, but I guess there are no gods.

While I don't care, I also don't guess that there are none.

That's it, I suppose.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Azdgari on November 04, 2013, 09:23:19 AM
I don't know for certain, but I also don't think there are no gods.

Sounds like one of the "agnostic theist" variants may fit you then.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Ataraxia on November 04, 2013, 09:27:23 AM
I don't know for certain, but I also don't think there are no gods.

Sounds like one of the "agnostic theist" variants may fit you then.

How so, if I also don't think there are gods?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: RubyLeo on November 04, 2013, 09:33:59 AM
I don't know for certain, but I also don't think there are no gods.

Sounds like one of the "agnostic theist" variants may fit you then.

How so, if I also don't think there are gods?

I may need more coffee - but please explain how you can say "I don't think there are no gods" and then say "I also don't think there are gods."  It's making my brain hurt.   ;D
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Azdgari on November 04, 2013, 09:38:47 AM
How so, if I also don't think there are gods?

Well if you don't think about the subject at all, then I guess there really isn't a category for you.  But then I'm left to wonder what brought you here.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Ataraxia on November 04, 2013, 09:42:42 AM
I don't know for certain, but I also don't think there are no gods.

Sounds like one of the "agnostic theist" variants may fit you then.

How so, if I also don't think there are gods?

I may need more coffee - but please explain how you can say "I don't think there are no gods" and then say "I also don't think there are gods."  It's making my brain hurt.   ;D

(I'm going to equate think with believe, because for all itents and purposes they are the same here).

Not Believing/thinking in one thing does not automatically mean believing/thinking in the opposite. If there is not enough information for either case, then neither are believed/thought to be the case, even though it is acknowledged that one must be the case.

For example, there are either an even or odd number of blades of grass on my lawn at any one time. While I acknowledge that there are either an even or odd number of blades, I currently don't have the information to make a decision to believe/think that there are an even number or odd number.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Ataraxia on November 04, 2013, 09:43:47 AM
How so, if I also don't think there are gods?

Well if you don't think about the subject at all, then I guess there really isn't a category for you.  But then I'm left to wonder what brought you here.

I do think about the subject, I just don't hold a thought either way as to which is correct.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: RubyLeo on November 04, 2013, 09:57:11 AM

(I'm going to equate think with believe, because for all itents and purposes they are the same here).

Not Believing/thinking in one thing does not automatically mean believing/thinking in the opposite. If there is not enough information for either case, then neither are believed/thought to be the case, even though it is acknowledged that one must be the case.

For example, there are either an even or odd number of blades of grass on my lawn at any one time. While I acknowledge that there are either an even or odd number of blades, I currently don't have the information to make a decision to believe/think that there are an even number or odd number.

Thanks for clarifying.  Wouldn't that make you just agnostic then?

Full Definition of AGNOSTIC (Merriam-Webster)

1
:  a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly :  one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Ataraxia on November 04, 2013, 10:00:44 AM

(I'm going to equate think with believe, because for all itents and purposes they are the same here).

Not Believing/thinking in one thing does not automatically mean believing/thinking in the opposite. If there is not enough information for either case, then neither are believed/thought to be the case, even though it is acknowledged that one must be the case.

For example, there are either an even or odd number of blades of grass on my lawn at any one time. While I acknowledge that there are either an even or odd number of blades, I currently don't have the information to make a decision to believe/think that there are an even number or odd number.

Thanks for clarifying.  Wouldn't that make you just agnostic then?

Full Definition of AGNOSTIC (Merriam-Webster)

1
:  a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly :  one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

I could argue that it just makes me agnostic (and some do), but if I fit the criteria of an atheist (in not believing gods exist), then I'd say that makes me an atheist too.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: RubyLeo on November 04, 2013, 10:06:42 AM

I could argue that it just makes me agnostic (and some do), but if I fit the criteria of an atheist (in not believing gods exist), then I'd say that makes me an atheist too.

I hear ya. That's why I chose "agnostic atheist."
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Azdgari on November 04, 2013, 10:24:46 AM
I do think about the subject, I just don't hold a thought either way as to which is correct.

Well if you don't hold theistic beliefs then you're an a-theist, because you're without-theism.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on November 04, 2013, 11:10:33 AM
I am a fatheist. Which is defined as: one who doesn't give a fuck if god/s exist or not.

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: median on November 06, 2013, 03:23:26 PM
Thus far my religious position is:

N/A
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Materialgirl on February 11, 2014, 02:17:19 AM
Shifted from agnostic atheist to gnostic atheist recently based on overwhelming evidence imo of no God. Creation is sufficiently becoming explained, life is understood and supernatural type experiences are covered by neurobiological and psychiatric explanations.

It is not reasonable to claim doubt when science furnishes us with about 99.99999999... percent proof of no God (as characterised by typical God proponents) and no proof whatsoever of God/s.
I think to fence sit with agnosticism atheism is symptomatic of holding out hope due to some kind of psychological difficulty with truth... some sort of God wish hangover caught from world culture!

Paradoxically (tho not really) it is transcendent (some might call it spiritual) experiences of sudden insight that came to both me and patients as I nursed the dying that gradually... yet powerfully convinced me there is no God. One life, no soul, a unitary brain/mind.  :police:The "explanatory gap" is fabricated BS, our brain is fully capable of producing qualia.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: wheels5894 on February 11, 2014, 03:31:59 AM
Welcome to the forum. Materialgirl! It's great to see a new 'convert'!
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Materialgirl on February 11, 2014, 04:18:09 AM
Thx, getting to stage of life of not feeling like being quiet to keep the peace. Religious idiocy is driving me crazy. So upskill me.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Ataraxia on February 11, 2014, 04:38:44 AM
Hi Materialgirl and welcome to the forum.

Shifted from agnostic atheist to gnostic atheist recently based on overwhelming evidence imo of no God. Creation is sufficiently becoming explained,

Doesn't that depend on what god is being defined? If it's the literal Biblegod who never deceives and creates the world in 6 days 6000 years ago etc, then we can say that god doesn't exist because the evidence points to a different model. However, if it's a simple deist god with no real strings attached, void of ever being able to be falsified, then it follows that there can't be evidence that this god doesn't exist.

Quote
life is understood and supernatural type experiences are covered by neurobiological and psychiatric explanations.

Correct... to an extent. Any "supernatural" experience is immediately swallowed up by a natural explanation and therefore at least becomes indistinguishable from a natural experience. To experience the supernatural is akin to reaching tomorrow. However, just because the supernatural is beyond experience doesn't mean that it's existence is eliminated, only that it's indistinguishable from not existing.

Quote
It is not reasonable to claim doubt when science furnishes us with about 99.99999999... percent proof of no God (as characterised by typical God proponents) and no proof whatsoever of God/s.

I disagree, for the same reason I explain to theists. It is beyond the scope of science to provide evidence for gods existence or non-existence. The only way it can contradict a god is if that god is defined as creating the world a certain way yet the evidence points to the world working a different way.
However, we could explain how everything in the universe works using the scientific method, but that method will not eliminate a god being behind all of those naturalistic explanations.

Quote
I think to fence sit with agnosticism atheism is symptomatic of holding out hope due to some kind of psychological difficulty with truth... some sort of God wish hangover caught from world culture!

Not at all, for me anyway. It's just intellectual honesty because epistemology is a slippery fish. This doesn't just apply to gods - this applies to anything anyone can ever conceive or imagine up that has no evidence of existence in the world that can be perceived. God is the hangover because god is just flavour of the month, but this also applies to universe creating pixies, the FSM, spiritualism, mermaids, leprechauns, jkgsh84t4hg and anything else indistinct from made up bullshit.

Quote
Paradoxically (tho not really) it is transcendent (some might call it spiritual) experiences of sudden insight that came to both me and patients as I nursed the dying that gradually... yet powerfully convinced me there is no God. One life, no soul, a unitary brain/mind.  :police:The "explanatory gap" is fabricated BS, our brain is fully capable of producing qualia.

I don't find personal experiences to be a good way of establishing what is real/true, regardless of whether they are personal experiences of god, personal experiences that convince someone there is no god or something else, say personal experiences of seeing dead people. Such subjectivity just puts everybody on a level playing field.
So, if you don't find someone's personal experience of god to be convincing, then any you have yourself should be given the same consideration.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Materialgirl on February 11, 2014, 06:31:06 AM
Hi Materialgirl and welcome to the forum.

Shifted from agnostic atheist to gnostic atheist recently based on overwhelming evidence imo of no God. Creation is sufficiently becoming explained,

Doesn't that depend on what god is being defined? If it's the literal Biblegod who never deceives and creates the world in 6 days 6000 years ago etc, then we can say that god doesn't exist because the evidence points to a different model. However, if it's a simple deist god with no real strings attached, void of ever being able to be falsified, then it follows that there can't be evidence that this god doesn't exist.
man has no interest in a god that is/says/does nothing and such a god is not even  worth wasting a thought on or debunking... as if it has no agency then its essentially a non entity. This conceptualisation is just moving goalposts to tangent off any helpful inquiry. I think atheists are better dealing with real illusions being propagated by the orthodox and new age religions - this involves understanding how they are packaging their gods to occupy the ever shrinking  margins of science
Quote
life is understood and supernatural type experiences are covered by neurobiological and psychiatric explanations.

Correct... to an extent. Any "supernatural" experience is immediately swallowed up by a natural explanation and therefore at least becomes indistinguishable from a natural experience. To experience the supernatural is akin to reaching tomorrow. However, just because the supernatural is beyond experience doesn't mean that it's existence is eliminated, only that it's indistinguishable from not existing.

Which gives it a weak evidential strength - beyond weak actually, pitiful. It is a reasonable leap and not large to say that if it is indistinguishable from something nonexistent it probably is non existent. Knowing in many cases must be about probabilities not absolute proof, sufficient info should enable a non tentative claim to know imo or else we would be paralysed in many ways

Quote
It is not reasonable to claim doubt when science furnishes us with about 99.99999999... percent proof of no God (as characterised by typical God proponents) and no proof whatsoever of God/s.

I disagree, for the same reason I explain to theists. It is beyond the scope of science to provide evidence for gods existence or non-existence. The only way it can contradict a god is if that god is defined as creating the world a certain way yet the evidence points to the world working a different way.
However, we could explain how everything in the universe works using the scientific method, but that method will not eliminate a god being behind all of those naturalistic explanations.

REASONABLENESS - we could demonstrate that every Santa Xmas is a mum or dad over 100 years, that doesn't exclude a real Santa who hasn't been on the job in a century but its fairly conclusive. If you still believe in Santa despite 100 yrs peer reviewed research and video surveillance footage let me sell you some real estate on Xenu where L Ron Hubbard awaits

Quote
I think to fence sit with agnosticism atheism is symptomatic of holding out hope due to some kind of psychological difficulty with truth... some sort of God wish hangover caught from world culture!

Not at all, for me anyway. It's just intellectual honesty because epistemology is a slippery fish. This doesn't just apply to gods - this applies to anything anyone can ever conceive or imagine up that has no evidence of existence in the world that can be perceived. God is the hangover because god is just flavour of the month, but this also applies to universe creating pixies, the FSM, spiritualism, mermaids, leprechauns, jkgsh84t4hg and anything else indistinct from made up bullshit.

Sory but I see it as a failure of honesty given the weight of evidence against any God of normal human ascribed attributes or of any other sort for that matter, say evidence dictates  there is only a chance in a billion billion that in some universe there is a pink unicorn and because we can't get there to falsify - this is not a good reason to leave the door on this open, it is more intellectually deluded than to close it imo - or be accused of being a crazy dreamer

Quote
Paradoxically (tho not really) it is transcendent (some might call it spiritual) experiences of sudden insight that came to both me and patients as I nursed the dying that gradually... yet powerfully convinced me there is no God. One life, no soul, a unitary brain/mind.  :police:The "explanatory gap" is fabricated BS, our brain is fully capable of producing qualia.

I don't find personal experiences to be a good way of establishing what is real/true, regardless of whether they are personal experiences of god, personal experiences that convince someone there is no god or something else, say personal experiences of seeing dead people. Such subjectivity just puts everybody on a level playing field.
So, if you don't find someone's personal experience of god to be convincing, then any you have yourself should be given the same consideration.

Im not asking you to be persuaded by my experience, merely relaying it. You cant falsify that my miraculously complex brain has not fired off at some synapses creating a perfect model that proves God does not exist, however one so complex I was able to pattern intuit its meaning yet am unable to annotate and communicate the model - so if you want to maintain consistency with not closing the door on a non falsifiable God in interets of intellectual fussiness then I dont think you should deny the capacity of my brain to have solved the question in such a way I lack the language capability to communicate. Our language and manifest culture lags markedly behind our cognitive capabilities
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on February 11, 2014, 09:14:18 AM
What's up with the red text? Use regular text.

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: One Above All on February 11, 2014, 09:16:58 AM
What's up with the red text? Use regular text.

She doesn't know how to quote.
Materialgirl, click here (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,4259.0.html) to go to the Quoting FAQ and click here (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/board,28.0.html) for the Test Area.

-Nam

-One
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: summersolstice on March 16, 2014, 02:29:46 PM
I've seen a lot of arguments about "agnosticism" vs" Agnostic Atheism" (i.e. the undecided viewpoint) btw the argument wasn't on this forum. Anyway I just thought this would be a good place to post a link to this:

http://agnosticismatheism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/is-agnosticism-type-of-agnostic-atheism.html

btw this is my first post:D
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: median on March 16, 2014, 02:46:33 PM
I've seen a lot of arguments about "agnosticism" vs" Agnostic Atheism" (i.e. the undecided viewpoint) btw the argument wasn't on this forum. Anyway I just thought this would be a good place to post a link to this:

http://agnosticismatheism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/is-agnosticism-type-of-agnostic-atheism.html (http://agnosticismatheism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/is-agnosticism-type-of-agnostic-atheism.html)

btw this is my first post:D

Welcome to the WWGHA Forum. Make sure you read the forum rules as well as learn how to properly make quotations when responding to others. Happy chatting.



Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on March 16, 2014, 02:51:32 PM
^^^welcome, summersolstice

We weren't expecting you just yet. We thought we'd have to wait til June. But welcome.  ;D

From my perspective, after wading through all the specifics offered by the linked article, how I define my atheism is of more importance to me than how it is labeled by others. The author seemed a bit too anal to me, and very few folks have shown up here interest in anything more than the standard dichotomy; is there a god or not.

So while I realize that very detailed definitions exist for the variations (and your link is certainly complete in that department), I don't think the details are too important. The recent arguments we've had with a theist or two on this subject was never about the exact definition, though the theists sometimes pretended it was. Rather, it was about them demanding that we accept everything they say as gospel, and it was about their incredulity that we don't. And sadly, that is usually the best a theist can do around here. Most of are patiently waiting for someone to show up who can argue for theism without insisting that we agree with all of their assumptions and definitions to begin with. And none of them seem to be able to be as eloquent as the linked article.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: wheels5894 on March 16, 2014, 03:11:31 PM
I've seen a lot of arguments about "agnosticism" vs" Agnostic Atheism" (i.e. the undecided viewpoint) btw the argument wasn't on this forum. Anyway I just thought this would be a good place to post a link to this:

http://agnosticismatheism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/is-agnosticism-type-of-agnostic-atheism.html

btw this is my first post:D

Welcome!

You know, humans have this thing about classifying things but the person you link to has gone mad to classify anything anyone might think! It believe and non-belief were clear cut - maybe evidence - then it would, sort of, make sense. As it is, it seems like someone telling me what I think. Not the way to go.

For starters, it doesn't account for people like my son who thinks there is nothing worth thinking about religion or lack of it. He is completely disinterested in the whole subject. What does that make him? I, having studied theology at university level, conclude there is nothing in the way of evidence for the existence of any god - just like most people don't believe in Odin though, oddly, we mark him weekly in the day named after him, Wednesday!

Where do you fit on the range of opinions, summersolstice?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: summersolstice on March 17, 2014, 03:32:23 AM
You want to careful criticing the author of that Link:
I'm the author! Don't worry I'm not offended:) the article was me trying resolve disputes I'd Seen on youtube regarding agnosticism and atheism(their meaning):D I reasearched It and read somewhere (can't remember where) that the definition of atheism had been "diluted" hence the dispute:)

Anyway for quite a while I have thought It doesn't matter what a word means along as people you're talking to know what you mean
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on March 17, 2014, 10:23:39 AM
It's okay, most of us don't click links; especially by newbies; they could be drive by posters; and we'd end up making fun of and deriding the person.

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: median on March 24, 2014, 09:35:36 AM
Cool pic:

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-g37JQ7Pg0Vw/UUydYXhoxkI/AAAAAAAAAAg/gU6tD_lMjzw/s1600/Untitled123.jpg)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on March 24, 2014, 05:10:21 PM
It has wisely been brought to my attention that my comment above about the article posted by summersolstice was harsh for no reason. And my harshness was made worse by the fact that she, a new person here who is most definitely one of us, was the author of said article. There was nothing I disagreed with in her post, I just commented a bit too freely about how I thought it was overly detailed, and I chose to use a word that is seldom welcomed by its recipients.

I was wrong to savage an article that I didn't disagree with in any way. And I was wrong to berate merely because my tolerance for detail is close to zero. I live on a planet with 7 billion others, and I need to learn that my standards don't satisfy everyone else, so I shouldn't expect only my criterion to be met.

I'm sorry, summersolstice. Please accept this apology in the spirit intended.

And Nam, not a peep out of you. If we were all as unapologetic as you, you wouldn't be nearly as special. :D
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on March 24, 2014, 07:40:46 PM
Special like an asshole.

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: screwtape on March 25, 2014, 09:10:24 AM
It has wisely been brought to my attention ...

You act like a dick and get Darwined TWICE for it.  wtf is wrong with people?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on March 25, 2014, 09:46:50 AM
I was tempted to add "Please don't Karmalize me for this" but that sounded too egotistical.

You have my full permission to remove those two +1's, screwtape. My being a dick should not be overlooked simply because I was accidentally adroit at apologizing. I certainly appreciate those who saw my sincerity, but I don't need the plaudits that bad. Not at my age.

Added: I only saw two. There have been hundreds. Use you judgment  ;D

Added after jdawg: I meant to say there MAY have been hundreds, but that was probably a Freudian slip. I shan't touch it.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: jdawg70 on March 25, 2014, 09:50:36 AM
I was tempted to add "Please don't Karmalize me for this" but that sounded too egotistical.

You have my full permission to remove those two +1's, screwtape. My being a dick should not be overlooked simply because I was accidentally adroit at apologizing. I certainly appreciate those who saw my sincerity, but I don't need the plaudits that bad. Not at my age.

Added: I only saw two. There have been hundreds. Use you judgment  ;D

I was this close to +1ing this post for the irony factor.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: screwtape on March 25, 2014, 10:31:10 AM
You have my full permission to remove those two +1's, screwtape.

Hell no I won't.  I don't censor karma.  If someone thought you were worthy of it, who am I to negate that?  I'm just pissy because I'm jealous.  And for that I must humbly apologize to you, this community, the internet as a whole and the universe in general.[1]

Karma's funny.  I occasionally write a post and think "wow, that was flipping brilliant.  I can hardly believe I wrote something that good."  And it gets zero Darwins.   I write an off hand comment I consider nothing more than chit-chat, and it gets three.  It makes no sense, I tells ya.  But dems da berries.  Karma is a cruel and fickle mistress.

My being a dick should not be overlooked...

It wasn't.  Someone pointed it out to you, you admitted it and I just called you a dick.  So, overall, your dickitude was duly noted and well documented.

Go forth, young man.  You are absolved.


 1. blatant attempt to curry favor and Darwins!
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on March 25, 2014, 10:33:33 AM
I should be karmalized for being a dick and having one.

j/k

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: I Believe on April 09, 2014, 08:47:29 AM
I am a Born Again Christian.  To my understanding of the Holy Bible I believe that God is very real indeed.  I believe also that there is satan who God BigG knows and calls god littleg = the god of this world not of the World to come.  He is some control of things ( as God does allow)  However little g's time is short considering what he will get in the end along with his people.  God ( big G) never meant for the world to end up like this instead satan and some people want hate instead of LOVE because I know from experience that God ( Big G) is LOVE.  I am not here to convince anyone of anything.  I am only here to share my beliefs.  I also do believe that IF God on any given person, moment is Very Capable of healing anyone of anything.  But not so that you can force Him to prove Himself to you who hate Him anyway.

That's all I really had on my Heart.  Who knows maybe someone has the same view and needed some reassurance.  I share in Him amen JESUS IS LORD ~ GOD IS LOVE

I must add that my opinion and yours will not matter in the end IF there really is God.

I am happy that God rescued me from deep of the deep delusions that I was taught as a child and young adult.  Really I should have been dead or in jail but GOD!
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: screwtape on April 09, 2014, 09:00:33 AM
Hi I Believe

Welcome to our forum. 

Your post was informative, but did not answer the question.  Please read the Original Post of this thread.  If you like, you can answer again with the proper context in mind. 

Thanks.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Black Dwarf on April 10, 2014, 10:19:30 AM
I count myself as a very-nearly-gnostic theist, of the Christian sub-category. I suppose I would write that I am fully convinced that there is a g/God and that is is the God of the Bible. For me there are certain arguments which point to God existing (though I'll not mention those for a bit as they almost invariably start long conversations/arguments), but for me the main thing is that the best explanation of what went on in Israel 2000 years ago is that there was a bloke called, "Jesus" and he was who he claimed to be (as reported in the NT and Tacitus).
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Black Dwarf on April 10, 2014, 10:23:18 AM
I hate to pick nits, but as I have said in other threads, I'm a bit anal about one point: agnosticism is not "I do not know", but rather "It is impossible to know".  I am an agnostic atheist: It is impossible to know for certain whether a god exists, but I don't believe there is one.
Isn't that using the term "agnostic" in one of two possible ways. A good number of people use "agnostic" to mean "I don't know" rather than "It is impossible to know". That's one reason why I prefer the term "weak atheist" rather than "agnostic atheist". "Gnostic" is also ambiguous, particularly at the start of a sentence where it has to have a big "G" as it may also refer to the Gnostics of old, e.g. those who claimed to also be Christian during the 2nd century AD onwards.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: wheels5894 on April 10, 2014, 10:43:02 AM
Agnostic, I thought was what the Greek says, not knowing' but apparently that's not the case. The Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism) confirms the idea that it implies that something cannot be known. Certainly it is true that the fact that there is not a god could not be proved - unless some specific characteristics make this possible - and it is highly likely that the existence of a god cannot be proved due to the usual god being reticent about communication and action. So I suppose that leaves everyone, pretty much, in the same boat - we don't know either way but we are not agnositics! What fun! atheists and theists with the same problem!
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: wow on June 27, 2014, 05:42:06 PM
I voted for agnostic atheist  :police:
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Lukvance on August 15, 2014, 11:30:14 AM
gnostic monotheist . 93 pple with me. Where are they!? :)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on August 15, 2014, 11:36:49 AM
gnostic monotheist . 93 pple with me. Where are they!? :)

I turned one of them into an atheist. Which gives me a much higher success rate than Lourdes can claim. I'm a miracle.

The rest apparently decided that they had better things to do than be told that they're wrong all day long.

That's a hint.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Seeker_of_Truth on October 11, 2014, 11:51:23 AM
There should have been another category: Christian Deist.

I believe in God without a doubt. I think Jesus was a historic person. I'm not sure about all the other stuff i.e. the miracles, born of a virgin, 12 disciples, resurrection, ascension, etc. Believing in God, I believe God could do all that but we just don't have the historic evidence to say with assurance that it happened and so we have to go agnostic on that part of it.

Being a Deist, I believe that God created the universe and then set natural laws into motion that govern everything. He keeps a distance and has his spirit guides, angels, enlightened spirits, etc to do His work.

NDE's have proven there is consciousness after death. There is no satan, demons, etc. nor is there a fiery hell. Everybody on this earth is on a path to enlightenment that continues after death on a series of upward planes, the first of which is the astral where most of us go after dying.

That is my position in a nutshell.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: One Above All on October 11, 2014, 12:02:57 PM
NDE's have proven there is consciousness after death.

Welcome to the forum (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,20509.0.html).
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on October 11, 2014, 12:31:03 PM
Welcome to the forum, Seeker_of_Truth. While most of us here clearly disagree with you in the relevant areas of religion, I suspect our conversations may be much more interesting than if you were merely another fundamentalist.

Your statement that you think that god did it, even if he wasn't the god of the bible, and your contention that NDE"s have been proven may well lead to some heady conversations.

You have to post a few times in other threads like this one before you can start your own discussions, but it will be fun to talk with you about stuff that doesn't include floods, jesus or creation science. Plus your POV on NDE's and what they do or don't prove always makes for interesting conversation. I personally think it would be cooler than hell to continue existing after I kick the bucket, but since I haven't found the universe responding to my personal preferences in any other arena, so I'm not gonna get my hopes up on this one.

Again, welcome. And stick around. Please don't be one of those one-post weenies.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on October 11, 2014, 12:54:31 PM
Demons don't exist but angels do? You don't believe in Jesus but you still want to call yourself a "Christian"?

(shakes head)

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: wright on October 11, 2014, 12:57:10 PM
There should have been another category: Christian Deist.

I believe in God without a doubt. I think Jesus was a historic person. I'm not sure about all the other stuff i.e. the miracles, born of a virgin, 12 disciples, resurrection, ascension, etc. Believing in God, I believe God could do all that but we just don't have the historic evidence to say with assurance that it happened and so we have to go agnostic on that part of it.

Being a Deist, I believe that God created the universe and then set natural laws into motion that govern everything. He keeps a distance and has his spirit guides, angels, enlightened spirits, etc to do His work.

NDE's have proven there is consciousness after death. There is no satan, demons, etc. nor is there a fiery hell. Everybody on this earth is on a path to enlightenment that continues after death on a series of upward planes, the first of which is the astral where most of us go after dying.

That is my position in a nutshell.

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for being fairly explicit about your religious / supernatural views. Hope to see you around.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 11, 2014, 04:36:31 PM
There should have been another category: Christian Deist.

I believe in God without a doubt. I think Jesus was a historic person. I'm not sure about all the other stuff i.e. the miracles, born of a virgin, 12 disciples, resurrection, ascension, etc. Believing in God, I believe God could do all that but we just don't have the historic evidence to say with assurance that it happened and so we have to go agnostic on that part of it.

Being a Deist, I believe that God created the universe and then set natural laws into motion that govern everything. He keeps a distance and has his spirit guides, angels, enlightened spirits, etc to do His work.

NDE's have proven there is consciousness after death. There is no satan, demons, etc. nor is there a fiery hell. Everybody on this earth is on a path to enlightenment that continues after death on a series of upward planes, the first of which is the astral where most of us go after dying.

That is my position in a nutshell.

 Hi ST, it looks like you have put a lot of effort into ordering your thoughts in a rational way. This is never easy to do on your own as you probably know the easiest person to fool is yourself. That is why a site like this is so useful. There are plenty of wonderfully good thinkers on this site who keep me focused and they will do the same for you. Just to show you that others can spot your mistakes more easily than you can, I will start you off with this. You accept the evidence of NDE's but not demons or Hell. Well, you should know that one of the commonest forms of NDE is being tortured in Hell, so you are still choosing what you want to be true. That is one small piece of irrationality right there.

Now about those natural laws, have you thought they were invented by people and only exist on paper, as the saying goes? That saying really needs to be updated to - " and exist on computer". Those man made laws are only approximations to the flow of chaos which you call the universe. The universe is actually hostile to order and it is only by chance that humans temporarily exist within it. But don't let that worry you too much.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Seeker_of_Truth on October 12, 2014, 10:41:42 AM
All of the conversation yesterday evening on the elements in the ocean assembling seems to have disappeared. Was it censured?

If it was offensive I bow to the administration's decision to ban it. No problem. I won't resume it if that's the decision.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Jag on October 12, 2014, 11:38:00 AM
The discussion was relocated to another thread: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,27502.0.html

I suspect the mod who moved it simply forgot to make note of the new location. Go ahead and resume the discussion, there's several new replies.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Seeker_of_Truth on October 12, 2014, 11:53:00 AM
Thank you, Jag.    :)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: screwtape on October 13, 2014, 09:03:57 AM
I suspect the mod who moved it simply forgot to make note of the new location. Go ahead and resume the discussion, there's several new replies.

Ya, that was me.  Sorry for the confusion.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: cloverleaf on October 27, 2014, 08:47:25 PM
1 you re looking for the answer in christian beliefs
2 according to the Quran God wanted to man kind find him with natural evidence and and through out the aprox 124 000 prophets
3 God almighty is able to make this world is heaven but did not want to cos He wanted to create heaven and hell and fill both with human kind so this world and amputees too are all for test to believe in one God and His prophets (judging this is meaningless)
4 you most say easily God does not exist but
if so there is one option that the universe is eternal there is no beginin of it this is imposible cos if it is this world must be already gone
5 you re looking for proof for existence of God
hubble discovered the universe is expanding in 1929 1500 yrs old Quran says that the universe is expanding
big bang is most acceptable theory of the begining of the universe right
its on Quran too
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: cloverleaf on October 27, 2014, 09:32:41 PM
you atheists
how can you explain
1 scientific methods (observation experiment and repeat)
how can a chemist or physicist  tell every h2o is water? while they have not test all H and O elements in the universe?
dont you see that is a belief that there is a system in the universe that runs?
you usually call it laws of nature,,,,,,how nature can rule (consciousness)
2 can you show observable evidence for  darwinist evolution of changing KINDS one to another?
If none is not it just a belief?
3 consciousness? its not in the brain scientist says cos our body works as an computer and computer does not have consciouness
is a biological cell or iphone more complex structure?
if you find ipone on jupiter would you think it randomly exist or someone put it there?
how can you explain symmetry on wings of butterfly and on flowers
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: jdawg70 on October 27, 2014, 10:07:45 PM
1 you re looking for the answer in christian beliefs
I suspect it seems that way largely because the majority of the theists on this forum are Christian (or wear the Christian label but aren't actually Christian, depending on who you ask).

Quote
2 according to the Quran God wanted to man kind find him with natural evidence and and through out the aprox 124 000 prophets
What's up with so many prophets?  That seems arbitrary to me.  Is it, like, based on demographic distribution or something?  There need to be like x number of prophets per non-prophets at any given point in time?

Are you going to claim that the Quran represents the inspired word of god?  I think there are a few Christians around here that a) accept that a god entity does, in fact, exist and b) do not accept that the Quran represents the inspired word of god.  It may not be quite so high of a climb to convince them - those that share your belief that god does, in fact, exist, has a vested interest in human affairs, and communicates cosmically, infinitely important information via episodic strings of poetry penned in languages that were destined to become obsolete.

That way, those of us who do not share this belief that god does, in fact, exist, can get a glimpse of how non-violent conflict resolution of claims regarding our shared objective reality works among those of religious tendencies.

Quote
3 God almighty is able to make this world is heaven but did not want to cos He wanted to create heaven and hell and fill both with human kind so this world and amputees too are all for test to believe in one God and His prophets (judging this is meaningless)
Umm...yeah, I'm going to go ahead and judge the above as meaningless.  I think you may need to unravel this point more.  It's messy and confusing.

Quote
4 you most say easily God does not exist but
if so there is one option that the universe is eternal there is no beginin of it this is imposible cos if it is this world must be already gone
Yeah...no I don't follow this either.  If the universe is eternal, that means it had no beginning, which is impossible because if it had no beginning it must be already gone?

Nope.  Really, I don't follow.

Quote
5 you re looking for proof for existence of God
hubble discovered the universe is expanding in 1929 1500 yrs old Quran says that the universe is expanding
Well that's pretty cool.  What was the Quran's estimate of the rate of expansion?  We've still got some holes in inflation theory - don't suppose the Quran has a few tests we could run to give us some insight into those, does it?

Quote
big bang is most acceptable theory of the begining of the universe right
its on Quran too
What did the Quran estimate the magnitude of the CMWB to be?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on October 27, 2014, 10:14:25 PM
cloverleaf, welcome

You don't have all the answers either. The difference is that your religion pretends, while our lack of religion accepts the many unknowns a bit more casually.

I don't have to explain the symmetry of a butterfly. It requires no explanation. The problem is that your religion (well, all religions) limits your world so much that you find yourself marveling at everything around you,thinking it amazing when it is in fact rather mundane. You are crediting your god credit when is irrelevant. And you are condemning humans to a million useless deaths merely because being right is more important that being, you know, right.

If all you want are more enemies, here we are. Sorry I don't babble like, you, but nonsense isn't my first language.

May the dark ages be with you.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Jag on October 27, 2014, 10:42:33 PM
you atheists
how can you explain
1 scientific methods (observation experiment and repeat)
how can a chemist or physicist  tell every h2o is water? while they have not test all H and O elements in the universe?
<snip>

Stop right there. Before you start complaining that scientists haven't tested every single molecules in the universe, we should make better sense of your god hypothesis.

So far, you appear to lack a good grasp of basic science. You want to ignore evidence and replace tested and supported observations of how the world actually works with what amounts to "magic" or "mystery" or "faith" - all because of cultural influences and a book.

I'll take science and you can keep your book - but you're being a hypocrite by pretending the scientific method is somehow lacking value while using technology created as a result of a great deal of applied science. You want the benefits without having to concede that it's far more reliable than your god.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: cloverleaf on October 27, 2014, 10:47:39 PM
"I don't have to explain the symmetry of a butterfly. It requires no explanation"
meaningless
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: nogodsforme on October 27, 2014, 11:33:33 PM
^^^Uh. Why are you here again?  :angel:
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on October 28, 2014, 12:49:34 AM
"I don't have to explain the symmetry of a butterfly. It requires no explanation"
meaningless

Of course it is. That was my intent. Your desire to give it meaning is causing you problems.

It is what it is. It isn't what you want it to be. Big difference.

Added: P.S. When your posts are only one word long, you sound pretty coherent.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: cloverleaf on October 28, 2014, 12:59:39 AM
do you think there is a system in the universe or its all chaos?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: screwtape on October 28, 2014, 07:20:54 AM
Hi cloverleaf

welcome to our forum.  My use of green text indicates I am acting as a moderator in this post and not participating in the discussion.

Please note the topic of this thread is "What is your religious position?" not "preach at us."  Please either state your religious position as defined in the Original Post, or make your arguments elsewhere.  Otherwise, we just have chaos here and no one wants that. 

Thanks.


Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: BlackLight on November 01, 2014, 01:48:55 AM
Agnostic atheist here. Not a gnostic because I don't think we're talking about a claim that can be known. Not an ignostic because I think the concept of a God has meaning. Not an apnostic (hey, I learned a new word!) because I do care whether or not gods exist.

I suppose I'd also be an adeist if we ever get around to inventing that word.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: wright on November 01, 2014, 01:53:55 AM
^^^Welcome to the forum, Blacklight. Hope to see you around.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: DesuMaiden on July 06, 2015, 10:21:44 AM
Whoa there is a lot of opinions to chose from. Well, I don't follow any mainstream religions, but I do have my own personal religious beliefs. I believe the Earth is alive, and we must respect the planet. We must use the planet's resources responsibly, not waste, recycle, and help other species. I guess my religion is some form of Native American animism. I worship nature. That's my religion. I believe it is possible that a supernatural realm exists, but I don't believe in it due to a lack of evidence for the said supernatural realm.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Defiance on July 06, 2015, 11:10:46 AM
Whoa there is a lot of opinions to chose from. Well, I don't follow any mainstream religions, but I do have my own personal religious beliefs. I believe the Earth is alive, and we must respect the planet. We must use the planet's resources responsibly, not waste, recycle, and help other species. I guess my religion is some form of Native American animism. I worship nature. That's my religion. I believe it is possible that a supernatural realm exists, but I don't believe in it due to a lack of evidence for the said supernatural realm.

Why do you believe it's possible?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on July 06, 2015, 11:48:20 AM
Because Earth is alive, silly.

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: DesuMaiden on July 06, 2015, 01:50:45 PM
Whoa there is a lot of opinions to chose from. Well, I don't follow any mainstream religions, but I do have my own personal religious beliefs. I believe the Earth is alive, and we must respect the planet. We must use the planet's resources responsibly, not waste, recycle, and help other species. I guess my religion is some form of Native American animism. I worship nature. That's my religion. I believe it is possible that a supernatural realm exists, but I don't believe in it due to a lack of evidence for the said supernatural realm.

Why do you believe it's possible?
Why isn't it possible? That's a better question for you.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: One Above All on July 06, 2015, 01:53:31 PM
Why isn't it possible? That's a better question for you.

No, the burden of proof is on you - the one making the positive claim. So, put up or shut up.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on July 06, 2015, 01:59:47 PM
Whoa there is a lot of opinions to chose from. Well, I don't follow any mainstream religions, but I do have my own personal religious beliefs. I believe the Earth is alive, and we must respect the planet. We must use the planet's resources responsibly, not waste, recycle, and help other species. I guess my religion is some form of Native American animism. I worship nature. That's my religion. I believe it is possible that a supernatural realm exists, but I don't believe in it due to a lack of evidence for the said supernatural realm.

Why do you believe it's possible?
Why isn't it possible? That's a better question for you.

Welcome DesuMaiden

I know this question isn't for me, so I won't answer that part. However, keep in mind that this is a site chock full of atheists, and as peoples who don't give any serious credence to higher power theories, we are naturally curious as to why believers, be they full-blown christians or more nature-based such as yourself, believe anything.

So for those of us who do not believe, we can't see how the supernatural realm could be possible, regardless of which excuse is used. People who do believe such things are possible, whether they claim to have made pertinent observations or not, have reasons to be a bit more positive about their pipe dreams, and its always nice to hear their reasoning. Even when we disagree.

So its great that you asked that question. But it would have helped your case immensely had you also answered his. That way there could be a conversation going on, rather than this variation on the  Jeopardy theme.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: jaimehlers on July 06, 2015, 03:26:51 PM
No, the burden of proof is on you - the one making the positive claim. So, put up or shut up.
Why are you being asinine to new members?

She quite clearly said that there is a lack of evidence for supernatural realms, and while she believes it's possible that such a realm exists, it should be quite evident that she is not actually claiming that one exists (and that someone would have to provide evidence for her to accept that it does).  Therefore she is not making any claim.

Besides, you could simply have answered by saying that the absence of evidence is evidence of absence (http://lesswrong.com/lw/ih/absence_of_evidence_is_evidence_of_absence/).  The absence of evidence for supernatural realms is in fact evidence of absence, at least as far as probability theory is concerned.  Failing to find evidence of something where you would expect evidence to occur decreases the probability that the something exists; while it is at least possible that a supernatural realm would leave no evidence, it is far more likely that no supernatural realm would leave no evidence.  It doesn't categorically prove it, but this is probably the best basis for not believing that a supernatural realm exists.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on July 06, 2015, 03:52:18 PM
Just clarify my smite: it wasn't me being a dick. Answering a question with a question is being a dick if that's the only thing being answered. Like PP said: ask your question, by all means, but at least have the audacity to answer the question posed (whether a claim, or not) and if you don't have answer then say that.

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on July 06, 2015, 06:25:39 PM
Yeah but it's still a good question in my opinion. Why isn't it possible that supernatural realms could exist?  No proofs are required to answer the question. Does the question need a new thread? I ask because now I am curious....why is it impossible for supernatural realms to exist?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on July 06, 2015, 06:36:59 PM
Yeah but it's still a good question in my opinion. Why isn't it possible that supernatural realms could exist?  No proofs are required to answer the question. Does the question need a new thread? I ask because now I am curious....why is it impossible for supernatural realms to exist?

Wouldn't one first need to establish that "supernatural" entities exist before finding out if their realm(s) exist, or any such realm exists?

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on July 06, 2015, 06:46:20 PM
Yeah but it's still a good question in my opinion. Why isn't it possible that supernatural realms could exist?  No proofs are required to answer the question. Does the question need a new thread? I ask because now I am curious....why is it impossible for supernatural realms to exist?

Wouldn't one first need to establish that "supernatural" entities exist before finding out if their realm(s) exist, or any such realm exists?

-Nam

I don't think so. Seems kind of backwards to me. Nobody in Europe suspected the American Indians existed. They were just going on the idea that the world was a globe and that it might be faster to get to the Indies if they sailed straight west.

I understand that the North American continent is not supernatural, nor were it's inhabitants. But how can you establish that any entity exists without first knowing where to look or accidentally stumbling upon their realm and accidentally discovering them?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on July 06, 2015, 07:26:59 PM
I don't know whether it is naïve or just ignorant to think that we humans are the zenith of all conscious beings in this universe. Or worse yet, the only ones. Presumably, even if not supernatural, there are life forms out there somewhere that are vastly superior to us, either physically, mentally or technologically. Presumably all three. And they may be so advanced that even if they are not actually supernatural, we would have no way to decide that, given our lack of knowledge about their various abilities and technologies. And, it may well be that they are so superior to us that we wouldn't even be noticed by them if they flew by our planet on a sightseeing tour.

So, if asked to guess, I would say that there are conscious things out there that are vastly superior to us. Supernatural or not, we would have no way of accurately deciding which it was. Natural or supernatural. So by default, we would probably treat any such beings as pretty damned superior.

Anything structurally superior to us past a certain point would therefore be functionally supernatural.

And then there could indeed be really really supernatural things out there that are beyond what science will ever be able to explain. Involving prescience, other dimensions and/or magical capabilities. Maybe all that stuff is made of dark matter or dark energy or something.

But we know nothing of any of those things now. We don't even have hints (unless the WOW! Signal was legit) about whether anything intelligent out there is real.

So I'm gonna go with what we know. Which is nothing. At least about stuff like that. But it is a very different nothing from what the fundamentalist christian nothing is. Which, ironically, is something that they prove the existence of daily.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on July 06, 2015, 08:00:19 PM
Yeah but it's still a good question in my opinion. Why isn't it possible that supernatural realms could exist?  No proofs are required to answer the question. Does the question need a new thread? I ask because now I am curious....why is it impossible for supernatural realms to exist?

Wouldn't one first need to establish that "supernatural" entities exist before finding out if their realm(s) exist, or any such realm exists?

-Nam

I don't think so. Seems kind of backwards to me. Nobody in Europe suspected the American Indians existed. They were just going on the idea that the world was a globe and that it might be faster to get to the Indies if they sailed straight west.

I understand that the North American continent is not supernatural, nor were it's inhabitants. But how can you establish that any entity exists without first knowing where to look or accidentally stumbling upon their realm and accidentally discovering them?

That whole ramble is nonsensical.

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: nogodsforme on July 06, 2015, 09:28:44 PM
No evidence. That's all there is to say about supernatural stuff. If it exists, we know nothing about it. So it may as well not be there. Fun to speculate, a la Dr. Who, Harry Potter, etc. as long as you realize there is no there there. Yet.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Airyaman on July 06, 2015, 09:39:05 PM
The supernatural is real. Well, as real as CGI, fables, myths and fiction would have us believe.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on July 07, 2015, 12:10:43 AM
No evidence... Yet.

That sounds about right. I'm not saying we should build a system of governance or morality based on a lack of evidence but I think it's foolhardy to boldly claim that anything outside of our current observation is not possible because we haven't observed it....yet.

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Azdgari on July 07, 2015, 07:59:57 AM
Yeah but it's still a good question in my opinion. Why isn't it possible that supernatural realms could exist?  No proofs are required to answer the question. Does the question need a new thread? I ask because now I am curious....why is it impossible for supernatural realms to exist?

It depends on what "supernatural" means.  If the realm supposedly can't be described with predictable rules, and it can affect our reality, then it's only a matter of time before it would destroy all of reality.  There's no boundary against it doing so - such a limitation would be a predictable rule, and thus naturalistic.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Graybeard on July 07, 2015, 10:13:52 AM
The discussion of "the possibility of the supernatural" is a matter for a new thread. If someone were to start that thread, I'm sure that it would take off.

This current thread is merely to state and possibly explain your religious position - nothing broader than that.

GB Mod
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Emma286 on August 18, 2015, 11:46:00 AM
Very recently turned Agnostic Athiest.   Discovering the God Is Imaginary website is the main reason why I changed my position from Agnostic to this.  I find the Athiest arguments against the existence  of gods much stronger/rooted in reality than all Theist arguments, out of all those I've come across so far.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Ron Jeremy on August 18, 2015, 12:10:05 PM
Very recently turned Agnostic Athiest.   Discovering the God Is Imaginary website is the main reason why I changed my position from Agnostic to this.  I find the Athiest arguments against the existence  of gods much stronger/rooted in reality than all Theist arguments, out of all those I've come across so far.

What made you look? Had you seen stuff on youtube or forums?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on August 18, 2015, 01:04:49 PM
Very recently turned Agnostic Athiest.   Discovering the God Is Imaginary website is the main reason why I changed my position from Agnostic to this.  I find the Athiest arguments against the existence  of gods much stronger/rooted in reality than all Theist arguments, out of all those I've come across so far.

I always think the main benefit of any argument is for the audience, who can see that theists just project their own personality onto their god, (This is known as SPAG, self projection about god.) and that theists project their intuition onto reality to create a false context for their god ( I call this SPAR, self projection about reality.).

Theists who come here to argue and preach are entrenched in their own little bubbles or worldviews and cannot understand other people or arguments outside of their worldview, so don't get frustrated if you make no impression on them. Just show the audience that theists are fooling themselves.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: median on August 19, 2015, 12:00:39 PM
SPAG is a very accurate term. I think the underlying root behind that projection, though, is fear. My father, for example, will still say things like, "You still have to deal with death, though. You still have to deal with death." What he's really hinting at is Pascal's Wager. He ultimately always comes back to that argument due to his fear of death and quite a few other things. I do street epistemology quite often and I have heard Christians admit, straight out, that they fear that if god does not exist 1) life is meaningless, 2) there are no "true morals", 3) nihilism must be true (life is chaos and hopeless, etc) and so they might as well just start raping, killing, and stealing, or commit suicide.

As a former Christian apologist and evangelist I shared these fears for a long time but later realized they are misplaced or based upon false assumptions that are implanted by the superstitious through the avenue of flawed black/white thinking. So whereas I used to think that without god life is meaningless, I now see it in the reverse. It is with this alleged "god" that life is meaningless and without this god life is infinitely valuable and precious b/c it is finite. Thus, every moment is valuable.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: nogodsforme on August 19, 2015, 01:05:10 PM
^^^Good points.

Which is more precious, more meaningful, more special? A ginormous neverending magical dinner where the food never runs out and the guests never age, that lasts for all eternity, or that one last Thanksgiving with Grandma and Grandpa?  People who say that life is meaningless if it is finite would have to pick the neverending magical dinner.

Why bother to go to Thanksgiving this year? Why bother celebrating with family and friends who will someday no longer be around because they moved away or died? It will end and then there will be no more turkey and pie. Since the holiday will not last forever, it is worthless.  :P
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on August 19, 2015, 04:37:47 PM
I don't understand why life would be considered meaningless and amoral with no god.  I think the Golden Rule transcends religion.  Just treat others the way you want to be treated pretty much covers every dilemma.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Emma286 on August 21, 2015, 06:43:25 AM
Very recently turned Agnostic Athiest.   Discovering the God Is Imaginary website is the main reason why I changed my position from Agnostic to this.  I find the Athiest arguments against the existence  of gods much stronger/rooted in reality than all Theist arguments, out of all those I've come across so far.
What made you look? Had you seen stuff on youtube or forums?

You know I really can’t remember exactly! Still, I have a feeling it was probably something to do with discovering Pat Condell on YouTube (I found some of the videos he put up pretty hilarious as well as finding various things he said on the subject of religion spot on) and being moved to do some kind of google search on atheist arguments!  ;) 

Very recently turned Agnostic Athiest.   Discovering the God Is Imaginary website is the main reason why I changed my position from Agnostic to this.  I find the Athiest arguments against the existence  of gods much stronger/rooted in reality than all Theist arguments, out of all those I've come across so far.

I always think the main benefit of any argument is for the audience, who can see that theists just project their own personality onto their god, (This is known as SPAG, self projection about god.) and that theists project their intuition onto reality to create a false context for their god ( I call this SPAR, self projection about reality.).
Theists who come here to argue and preach are entrenched in their own little bubbles or worldviews and cannot understand other people or arguments outside of their worldview, so don't get frustrated if you make no impression on them. Just show the audience that theists are fooling themselves.

On your first point, I think what you say there makes a lot of sense.   I don’t know lots about how unconscious psychological projection works, but enough to appreciate where you’re coming from.   Sounds accurate enough to me!   

Also agreeing on all you said about believers being entrenched in their own little bubbles/worldviews.   That’s something that in recent years has been becoming increasingly clear to me too.   

Will be sure to bear your advice in mind and make use of it, thanks for that!  ;) 
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: median on September 03, 2015, 10:31:53 AM
I don't understand why life would be considered meaningless and amoral with no god.  I think the Golden Rule transcends religion.  Just treat others the way you want to be treated pretty much covers every dilemma.

As a former believer and apologist I can tell you with confidence that the notion that life is meaningless without god, and the belief that there can be no objective morality without god, stems from assumption that there must be some ultimate and final authority on basically every matter of life. The concept/doctrine is very top down and goes something like the following.

#1 - MORLITY
-A final authority is necessary in order for justice to be served and wrongs "righted"
-This final authority must, by definition, have the capacity and will of rendering perfect justice and/or mercy when necessary
-Without a final authority there can be no wrongs righted, in any ultimate or lasting sense
-Without a final authority man has no objective and/or "concrete" basis by which to base his/her moral decision making
-Thus, without a final authority (we call it "God") there is no basis for any objective morality to be rendered and all moral judgements are just preference

#2 - MEANING
-If life is not ultimately eternal, temporal actions do not have any real and/or ultimate meaning or significance
-If life is not ultimately eternal, then life can have no ultimate meaning (since it will eventually end and be forgotten)
-According to atheism life is not eternal
-Thus, under atheism life has no meaning, value, and/or significance and all actions are meaningless and/or irrelevant in the grand scheme of things
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: nogodsforme on September 03, 2015, 12:22:33 PM
^^^That is a very sad and limited way to look at life. What a waste of the few short years we have on earth. Don't try to improve anything.  Just endure whatever lot god hands you and hope for the heavenly reward. With that attitude, why not just get a sign that says, "Repent for the end is near" and stand on the street corner reading the bible to passersby? Why even go to school or get a job? What is the point?

And if someone really does think that way, why would they try to prevent crime or bring criminals to justice? God will get it sorted in the end. :?

So very Hindu.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Jag on September 03, 2015, 08:18:49 PM
A population that is conditioned to defer to the highest available authority reflexively is a population ideally suited to become a theocracy, or perhaps an oligarchy. The power dynamics would be irresistible for... well, apparently the GOP, for starters. Or whichever unscrupulous megalomaniac seizes power.

I'm going to have to spend some time considering that idle thought to see if there's any real substance to it...

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Emma286 on September 04, 2015, 02:39:45 PM
^^^That is a very sad and limited way to look at life. What a waste of the few short years we have on earth. Don't try to improve anything.  Just endure whatever lot god hands you and hope for the heavenly reward. With that attitude, why not just get a sign that says, "Repent for the end is near" and stand on the street corner reading the bible to passersby? Why even go to school or get a job? What is the point?

And if someone really does think that way, why would they try to prevent crime or bring criminals to justice? God will get it sorted in the end. :?

So very Hindu.

For one, I can somewhat understand this way of thinking/seeing things.    Not saying that I think it makes believing in religion the best idea!  But all the same, I can appreciate why ( to some degree) why some hold that kind of world/existence view.   Am honestly not a Hindu!  Just someone who knows what it's like to be there and some of the reasons that can lead to it.   ;)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: nogodsforme on September 04, 2015, 05:22:08 PM
A Hindu perspective accepts that this world is a place full of suffering for most people, and there is not much that anyone can do about it. The gods made the world the way it should be for everyone, so if you suffer, it is because you deserve it. If you endure your suffering well, you will be rewarded in the next life. You can't really change your life because that is up to the gods.

That is a fundy Christian view as well. We suffer because of original sin and we cannot do much about that. We can only hope to do the right things and believe the right stuff and hope that god will reward us in the next life. Same basic thing. Only with one god instead of many.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Emma286 on September 25, 2015, 08:29:41 AM
Seem to recall reading some time back that Buddhism came out of Hinduism.   Some parts of it strike me as being pretty sensible, but have my doubts on the whole karma/reincarnation thing!  I do believe in karma in terms of how we all influence each others reactions at times with our own behaviour but not in a supernatural sense.  I get the impression this is what they believe in as do Hindu's! 

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on September 25, 2015, 09:49:34 AM
Seem to recall reading some time back that Buddhism came out of Hinduism.   Some parts of it strike me as being pretty sensible, but have my doubts on the whole karma/reincarnation thing!  I do believe in karma in terms of how we all influence each others reactions at times with our own behaviour but not in a supernatural sense.  I get the impression this is what they believe in as do Hindu's!

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/dharmadata/fdd48.htm

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Emma286 on September 25, 2015, 11:38:24 AM
Thanks for including that link Nam, useful to know!
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nudawn11 on November 26, 2015, 11:22:24 AM
Did you know that Astika (theists) and Nastika (Atheists) simultaneously exists as a part of ancient Hinduism, and is still accepted in the Hindu Philosophical community?
Beat that  :blank:
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on November 26, 2015, 12:52:27 PM
Did you know that Astika (theists) and Nastika (Atheists) simultaneously exists as a part of ancient Hinduism, and is still accepted in the Hindu Philosophical community?
Beat that  :blank:

Nooooooooo really?!?!? Man, us atheists learn new things all the time. Most aheists, especially at websites like this, are quite literate in all the major religions, and since Hinduism is not only the longest held continuing religion but the oldest known religion in the world, it also created Buddhism and Jainism, which many atheists highly respect.

Hinduism, however, is more theistic these days than atheistic as it used to be.

Also, don't be an ass, that's my job.

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nudawn11 on November 27, 2015, 04:33:58 AM

Nooooooooo really?!?!? Man, us atheists learn new things all the time. Most aheists, especially at websites like this, are quite literate in all the major religions, and since Hinduism is not only the longest held continuing religion but the oldest known religion in the world, it also created Buddhism and Jainism, which many atheists highly respect.

Hinduism, however, is more theistic these days than atheistic as it used to be.

Also, don't be an ass, that's my job.

-Nam

Hi Nam,
Completely agree with your statement "Hinduism, however, is more theistic these days than atheistic as it used to be". And that's the degeneration that have happened with almost all non-Abrahmic religions recently. Its one of my personal reasons to move away from religiousness.
But primarily Hinduism is gradual development; Beginning from a philosophical set of books(Vedas / Samhitas) to a set of guidelines for to lead your life (Veadanta) and finally transforming into Hinduism as money and power got involved.  :-X
What differentiates Vedanta from all religions including Hinduism is that it is based on 2 principles 1st Satya : this is about truth that you know and believe in. It is also because of that that Theism and Atheism is both included as it is your choice to believe in the truth or not. 2nd is Rta which roughly means order of nature and universe and translated in today's term Science. The combination of these 2 concepts makes it an extremely powerful and timeless development tool for the human race as the element Satya continuously builds upon itself with the progress (Rta).

Its a far bigger discussion(the Vedas are 4 volumes of huge books) but I hope this gives you a gist.

And sorry for my ignorance; i could not catch your statement "don't be an ass, that's my job"
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nam on November 27, 2015, 05:09:30 AM
Quote from: SPAG'er
it is your choice to believe in the truth or not.

Which one's the truth: atheism or theism?

-Nam
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nudawn11 on November 27, 2015, 07:13:28 AM
Which one's the truth: atheism or theism?
-Nam

I dont know, I did not write the Vedas 3000 years ago.  ;D
And are you mocking me? I have seen your posts & your intellectual capability (as in a compliment)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Add Homonym on November 27, 2015, 08:06:52 AM
I don't know what Hinduism is. The Persians came up the name, because they mispronounced Sindhu. The British took Hindu, to distinguish the riff raff from Muslims and Christians, who lived over the Indus river. After Pakistan took the Indus river, the Indians forgot about it, so became more Ganges worshippers. Now Indians believe that Hindu is a real word, that they invented.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nudawn11 on November 27, 2015, 09:58:41 AM
I don't know what Hinduism is. The Persians came up the name, because they mispronounced Sindhu. The British took Hindu, to distinguish the riff raff from Muslims and Christians, who lived over the Indus river. After Pakistan took the Indus river, the Indians forgot about it, so became more Ganges worshippers. Now Indians believe that Hindu is a real word, that they invented.

Agree. But mentioning "Sanatana Dharma" would probably not ring any bell in this forum
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: shnozzola on November 27, 2015, 12:12:10 PM
"Sanatana Dharma" certainly didn't ring any bells with me.  However, knowing "google" is my friend, I look it up, and it reminds me why I consider Hinduism possible practices to be as horrifying as Christianity and Islam, etc. possibly practices, when a wealthy family goes in search of an untouchable child to sacrifice as a cure for a "touchable".  We must never stop this debate against what religion can stand for.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/27/asia/nepal-human-sacrifice/index.html
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nudawn11 on November 30, 2015, 05:55:05 AM
"Sanatana Dharma" certainly didn't ring any bells with me.  However, knowing "google" is my friend, I look it up, and it reminds me why I consider Hinduism possible practices to be as horrifying as Christianity and Islam, etc. possibly practices, when a wealthy family goes in search of an untouchable child to sacrifice as a cure for a "touchable".  We must never stop this debate against what religion can stand for.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/27/asia/nepal-human-sacrifice/index.html

Absolutely disgusting. It reiterates myth thoughts on religion, It exists purely for the benefit of some at the cost of most.
Education is the only way out.

(http://cdn.meme.am/instances/60835795.jpg)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Strawman on January 12, 2016, 10:49:32 AM
I said I'm gnostic atheist but my problem is that I'm so atheist I don't really understand the question.  I don't know what anyone means when they talk about gods, I can't tell what is metaphor and what isn't, and I don't know what all the possible types of gods are; I mean, if you want to call nature/reality a god then do I believe in that or not?  What makes something a god?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: jdawg70 on January 12, 2016, 11:06:06 AM
I said I'm gnostic atheist but my problem is that I'm so atheist I don't really understand the question.  I don't know what anyone means when they talk about gods, I can't tell what is metaphor and what isn't, and I don't know what all the possible types of gods are; I mean, if you want to call nature/reality a god then do I believe in that or not?  What makes something a god?

Welcome to ignostic atheism.  We don't have cookies but we've got booze.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Strawman on January 12, 2016, 11:23:34 AM
Welcome to ignostic atheism.  We don't have cookies but we've got booze.

"Ignosticism is the idea that the question of the existence of God is meaningless, because the term "god" has no unambiguous definition. Ignosticism requires a good, non-controversial definition of god before arguing on its existence."

Yep, that sounds like me.  Thanks.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: One Above All on January 12, 2016, 11:32:45 AM
In full, I'm a gnostic apnostic ignostic atheist. I know there are no gods, but I neither care nor think the term is well-defined (among believers). I usually say I'm a gnostic atheist. It's shorter and conveys the same relevant information (nobody cares that I don't care, and whether or not I believe a word to be well-defined doesn't mean jack to those who disagree).
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: CrystalDragon on February 15, 2016, 11:12:26 AM
My view basically goes like this:  I know that one supreme God exists, but after looking through parts of the Bible and doing a bit of research, I feel that other gods may exist as lesser deities for several reasons:

-from what I've read, Israelites used to be polytheistic before they were monotheistic
-"God" in Genesis was translated from "Elohim" meaning "Gods"
-there's also the "let us make man in Our image" thing—I know that's often implied to be the Trinity, but the concept of the Trinity didn't exist until Jesus came along in the New Testament, and Genesis was in the Old Testament
-there's one part of the Bible where Yahweh sits at the head of the assembly of the gods.  Why would it say he "sits among the assembly of the gods" (I don't remember the exact wording" if there is no assembly to begin with? 

In a nutshell, how I feel is that the heavenly hierarchy goes like this:

       God—Jesus
       i
          Mary/Angels/Saints
       i
    Lesser gods

Primarily certain about all of them except the last, though I feel like given the evidence, it could be possible, though Yahweh is the Supreme Creator and the one to be worshipped.

Is there a specific term for that?  Monotheistic henotheist or something?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: eh! on April 02, 2016, 04:57:38 PM
What is the basis for your certainty?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Emma286 on April 04, 2016, 05:36:26 AM
Seconding Eh!'s question.

Why do you say you know there's at least one supreme God in existence rather saying you believe there is CrystalDragon?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: nogodsforme on April 04, 2016, 10:23:32 AM
CD sounds a lot like the African villagers I lived with back in the day. They had a whole hierarchy of god-beings, and after being colonized by European Christians, had just folded Jesus and Jehovah into the mix with no problem.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: CrystalDragon on April 04, 2016, 11:25:52 AM
I guess that was a bit of incorrect wording/explanation/meaning on my part.  I'll try to be a bit more explanatory here:

I firmly believe that God exists and Jesus exists. As far as "other gods" from other cultures go though, seeing as said "other gods" were acknowledged in the Bible, there may be some credit to their existence, but not on anywhere near the same power level as God (which Satanwould technically be a god by that definition IF we go with the presupposition that Satan has the ability to create evil things and the like).  I do not worship these "lesser gods" or angels or anything, only the God of Christianity.  I do not believe those "lesser gods" exist anywhere near as strongly as I do God, I simply mean thatI feel it's a possibility that they could exist in some form.

As for why I say that I know that God exists rather than believe that God exists... okay, if I'm being completely honest with myself, I don't feel like we can know for certain God (or at the very least how God is portrayed in the Bible) exists.  There's still a lot we don't know about everything (I mean, Voyager 1 has barely left the outskirts of our solar system for crying out loud), and we can't say for certain we know what is the true nature of the universe, creation, etc., because we aren't even anywhere close to knowing everything.

True, I was raised Christian from a very young age (being born on Christmas especially encouraged that for me personally because I thought it was pretty cool, and reportedly I said I saw Jesus when I was around 2 but honestly I don't remember it at all) and I still consider myself a Christian.  I think a main reason that I've tried to hold firm in my beliefs as I look more into things is because, to tell the truth, I feel that we have to be here for some sort of reason, and that we're more than just electrical impulses in the brain and our consciousness cases to exist after dying (though I know that people's personalities can change if they get brain damage, I sometimes would try to see the soul as like being a current of energy that runs the machine of the brain), and I feel like that the universe and us and everything can't have come about by chance (albeit directed through the laws of nature, but with no intelligent purpose behind it), and I fee like there must be some standard by which we set our morals (though I know that quite a lot of the things God commands in the Bible are not what we'd consider moral or good).  And also, I want to believe there's something after this, especially seeing as there's so many technological advances and the like that are going to come in the future—probably beyond my lifetime unless scientists find out a way to make us immortal/really long-lived within a few decades—and I may never get to see them.  At least with heaven you might get to see what goes on on Earth and you wouldn't really be missing out on things.

I know I probably seem like I'm ranting, but I feel a bit conflicted here. :?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: albeto on April 04, 2016, 02:48:58 PM
I feel that we have to be here for some sort of reason,

Make your reason. And make it count. Make it count for someone who doesn't have the same opportunities as you. Make it count for someone who suffers more than you. Make it count for someone just long enough to turn around and do the same for someone else. Or don't make one. Enjoy what you have. Just try not to be mean to others, if you can help it. Living for an imaginary deity's reason (fear and obey (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+12%3A13&version=KJV), how unsatisfying is that?) is a choice you can continue to honor, or reject in favor of more, well... honorable reasons. You already recognize this deity offends your moral code. Why would you want to continue doing things you imagine would please it?

and that we're more than just electrical impulses in the brain and our consciousness cases to exist after dying (though I know that people's personalities can change if they get brain damage, I sometimes would try to see the soul as like being a current of energy that runs the machine of the brain),

I find it interesting to watch theists dismiss the wonders of nature in favor of imaginary wonders they believe they have to wait to experience. It's one thing to wait for something, but why dismiss knowledge you are privy to now? Why forgo becoming familiar with how it works, what happens, what explains just *how* these electrical impulses contribute to what we think of as consciousness? Why on earth would anyone dismiss the riches they have access to in favor of potential riches that defy all evidence, and reason, the ones that rely solely on the imagination? Why not, at the very least, do both?

And also, I want to believe there's something after this, especially seeing as there's so many technological advances and the like that are going to come in the future—probably beyond my lifetime unless scientists find out a way to make us immortal/really long-lived within a few decades—and I may never get to see them.  At least with heaven you might get to see what goes on on Earth and you wouldn't really be missing out on things.

The Dictionary of  Obscure Sorrows calls this ellipsism. (http://www.dictionaryofobscuresorrows.com/page/13) "n. sadness that you’ll never be able to know how history will turn out, that you’ll dutifully pass on the joke of being alive without ever learning the punchline—the name of the beneficiary of all human struggle, the sum of the final payout of every investment ever made in the future—which may not suit your sense of humor anyway and will probably involve how many people it takes to change a lightbulb."

In reality, the idea of eternal life would be a torture beyond comprehension. Value is assigned to things, like people and experiences, precisely because we know they are not lasting. We know times change, events create consequences that are beyond our own control, beyond our imagination sometimes. And so we plod on, doing the best we can with what we have. We share ourselves with our loved ones, and hold our hands out to help others along the way because we are empathetic creatures, and we want others to experience joy rather than suffering. To have it all, whatever that is, would be to take all value away from everything that ever was truly important to us. One would be forced to "enjoy" every experience ever desired, again and again and again, or else become mindless automatons incapable of emotions other than joy. That would in essence take away our very personalities, our very souls, if you will, would be replaced with a mind-program we might call "Enjoy."  In another 4.5-5.5 billion years (give or take a few), our sun will deplete its supply of hydrogen, helium, and collapse into a white dwarf. People in heaven will supposedly still be walking through the park with Grandma, singing with Elvis, enjoying the Titanic without any iceberg. And to what end? How many conversations with Elvis does one need to be satiated? Doesn't matter, because for the next trillion eons, he'll still be there. Maybe he'll take a trip on the Titanic. For the 8 billionth time. whee. 

Or, depending on how much of the Catholic faith you actually believe in, the earth will be created anew, and nothing bad will ever happen. Which is an enormously childish and idiotic premise. It suggests the creator of the earth couldn't be bothered with making things right the first time, and rather than starting over or fixing things as soon as problems were identified, it decided to go ahead and ignore hundreds of thousands of years of human history, ignoring disease, pain, trauma, death by childbirth, war, tooth infection, slavery, rape, hunger, etc, etc, etc, for whatever reason, to declare do-vers.... later. Because.... who the hell knows? It doesn't make any sense. It's an illogical, insulting, and embarrassingly immature prospect. It's no wonder people don't like to think of the details, the mechanics that supposedly hold this whole thought-contraption together, and instead focus on the imaginary perfect future (conveniently withheld from comparison between one another, in favor of the tried but true, "It's not a salvation issue, so it doesn't matter" excuse).

I know I probably seem like I'm ranting, but I feel a bit conflicted here. :?

I understand your confliction. I suspect many of us here do. Disillusionment is not easy to wrestle with. Betrayal is sorrowful. Recognizing religious beliefs don't actually work for us, but we work to preserve them is eye-opening, and not in a pleasant way. I do think, however, that being the master of one's own thoughts is more precious than any imaginary comfort by any imaginary being, especially one that cannot be held accountable to reality in any way.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: jynnan tonnix on April 04, 2016, 03:04:48 PM
This could be a life-changing post...even just for pointing me to the Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows! What a keeper!
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: nogodsforme on April 04, 2016, 03:40:52 PM
CD, this is a very honest statement, and I thank you for that. Some theists weasel around wasting our time redefining words instead of admitting that they have no real evidence for what they believe. This is what you are saying here.

You have no evidence for any of this, but you just really want to believe that there is "something more" than life and death, or that there is "someone out there" watching over things, setting up the rules, keeping the ol' universe ticking over, and balancing the scales of injustice.  There is no sign that there is any such being or beings. No matter how badly you want there to be. No matter what the bible says or does not say. No matter what the adults in the Catholic Church told you when you were little.

We have had many, many believers, who aggravate us with all the aforementioned wasting of time redefining words like "omnipotent", "perfect", "eternal", "moral" and "omniscient".[1] The more insightful believers realize that their god is not standing around anywhere, and is only available through feelings and unreliable ancient stories. They therefore try to locate god somewhere in experimental physics (god is "energy") or some other area of science where we don't know much, because none of the extensive research in neuroscience, medicine, evolutionary biology, physical anthropology, archeology, geology, astronomy or ordinary physics has found any sign of their god.

The part of your statement that is really weak is this: the idea that there must be "something more" and therefore the god that I was taught about as a child must be real. You need to explain the connection, the "therefore" between those two statements. You cannot give any reason for the something more being the one god you think is real (and you already know that the bible is pretty lame on making the case).

If there is a something it could be Allah or Shango or Ahura Mazda or Brahma or Quetzacoatl just as easily as Jehovah. Same utter and total lack of evidence (besides feelings and stories) for all of them. Yet, all have had firm believers, for hundreds or even thousands of years.  Once you truly understand that people who believe in those gods are every bit as strong in their faith as you are in your god, are as willing to die, kill, change their lives, teach that religion to their kids as any devout Christian, there is only one path open to you.[2]

IMHO, either they are all real, which makes no sense in the way the universe operates, or none of them are. We don't have ancient stories about Jehovah chilling with the Buddha, or Zeus having a thunder and lightning battle with Shango, or Allah showing up in ancient Mexico to hang out with the Mayan or Aztec dieties. They do not all appear in anyone's mythology. Soooo, that suggests that religions are cultural artifacts made up by human beings, and have no real physical relationship to the world, let alone the universe.

Someone compared the situation of all these competing gods actually co-existing to the Harry Potter universe co-existing with the Marvel, Dr. Who, Star Trek and Star Wars universes.  We do not expect to see Harry wandering around the Death Star, or Yoda hanging out with Tony Stark except in crossover fanfiction. Of course, none of those universes really exists. Kinda like the universes inhabited by all those different gods. 
 1. Until they end up shrinking their god down to something like a clairvoyant, universe-creating Incredible Hulk who, although he made everything exactly the way he wanted it, and can see the future, still gets easily frustrated and destroys things when they, strangely, don't go his way...
 2. That was one of the strongest nails in the coffin of religious belief for me-- meeting people in many different cultures who truly, devoutly, honestly believed incredible sh!t that could not possibly be true.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: CrystalDragon on April 04, 2016, 06:35:04 PM
It's times like this where I wish there was one of those "happy cry" emoticons, because Albeto, I admit I felt touched by one part of your post in particular:

Make your reason. And make it count. Make it count for someone who doesn't have the same opportunities as you. Make it count for someone who suffers more than you. Make it count for someone just long enough to turn around and do the same for someone else. Or don't make one. Enjoy what you have. Just try not to be mean to others, if you can help it. Living for an imaginary deity's reason (fear and obey (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+12%3A13&version=KJV), how unsatisfying is that?) is a choice you can continue to honor, or reject in favor of more, well... honorable reasons. You already recognize this deity offends your moral code. Why would you want to continue doing things you imagine would please it?

That part in bold there honestly almost had me tear up—especially seeing as I was listening to "Try Everything" from Zootopia as I read it. :). There was just something inspiring I found about it.

And thanks for introducing me to the Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows as well.  Ellipsism is exactly the kind of thing I feel, and I never knew there was a specific word for it.   As for the eternal life being torture thing, I, at least, don't feel like it would be.  If I got to see people achieve things like traveling to other solar systems, or creating new film's and stories, that kind of thing would be worth living forever IMO.  To see everything that human ingenuity and imagination is capable of now and will be capable of is something I'd really want to be able to see.

NGFM, you have a point about the "therefore".  I suppose I should have worded it more like this: "I feel there must be something more to life like a greater purpose for our existence, so I feel that some higher power must have been involved". 

I appreciate you guys listening. :angel:
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Add Homonym on April 05, 2016, 01:51:07 AM
BASTARD ALERT

I firmly believe that God exists and Jesus exists.

Why does Jesus exist, if God is a vague thing for you? Are you talking about a vague Jesus?

Quote
I do not believe those "lesser gods" exist anywhere near as strongly as I do God, I simply mean thatI feel it's a possibility that they could exist in some form.

I'm statistically certain that they do exist. They could be just super evolved lifeforms, like Q and the Doctor.

Quote
that the universe and us and everything can't have come about by chance (albeit directed through the laws of nature, but with no intelligent purpose behind it),

Except for Jesus, who you know exists.

Quote
probably beyond my lifetime unless scientists find out a way to make us immortal/really long-lived within a few decades—and I may never get to see them.  At least with heaven you might get to see what goes on on Earth and you wouldn't really be missing out on things.

Maybe some child will resurrect us all, using a quantum computer, and then dish out arbitrary punishments.

Quote
I know I probably seem like I'm ranting, but I feel a bit conflicted here. :?

Luckily your consciousness is not much different to somebody else's. You are mainly your memories.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: eh! on April 05, 2016, 02:07:48 AM
CD in one post you went from;

"I know that [god exists]"

to

" I firmly believe that [God exists]"

I suggest you neither know or firmly believe at all. I further suggest this might be more appropriate sentence starter for you;

" I don't know with any certainty but I have a fragile emotional and psychological residual attachment to a vague concept I can't coherently define and with no good reason other than fear and intellectual laziness believe something I call god may or may not exist ......"

No need to thank me.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Add Homonym on April 05, 2016, 02:09:17 AM
OTHER BASTARD ALERT
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: jynnan tonnix on April 05, 2016, 06:29:43 AM
CD in one post you went from;

"I know that [god exists]"

to

" I firmly believe that [God exists]"

I suggest you neither know or firmly believe at all. I further suggest this might be more appropriate sentence starter for you;

" I don't know with any certainty but I have a fragile emotional and psychological residual attachment to a vague concept I can't coherently define and with no good reason other than fear and intellectual laziness believe something I call god may or may not exist ......"

No need to thank me.

This does make good points. I'm not entirely sure that the "intellectual laziness" is entirely warranted; the fear part alone can more than make up the entire reason for the reluctance to put actual words to that her doubt, but I do get the sense that those questions are swirling around.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Graybeard on April 06, 2016, 11:39:53 AM
As for the eternal life being torture thing, I, at least, don't feel like it would be.  If I got to see people achieve things like traveling to other solar systems, or creating new film's and stories, that kind of thing would be worth living forever IMO.  To see everything that human ingenuity and imagination is capable of now and will be capable of is something I'd really want to be able to see.
Yeah we all want things we can't have and never can have - so we invent fairies and elves to give us magic wishes. This is what you have done. Despite Albeto's masterpiece it's all about you, isn't it.

You imagine the unimaginable - an eternity. Time enough to read every book that was ever written, every film that was ever made, spend 100 years with everyone who ever lived, visit everywhere on every planet in the universe a billion times.

But what have you done? Nothing. There you are with all that time on your hands and you behave like a spoiled rich kid indulging themselves. Is that what you think God is for?

You worry about the "purpose of life"... what is the purpose of "eternal life"? A Mega-Disneyland where all the rides are free? Is that it? It that the reason you think there's an invisible magician in outer space? So the universe will be at your disposal?

Not very sensible, is it?



Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: jdawg70 on April 06, 2016, 01:51:02 PM
If I got to see people achieve things like traveling to other solar systems, or creating new film's and stories, that kind of thing would be worth living forever IMO.  To see everything that human ingenuity and imagination is capable of now and will be capable of is something I'd really want to be able to see.

Let's pretend for a moment that you do end up living forever, and you get to witness the sum total of everything that human ingenuity and imagination is capable of now and will be capable of.

At that moment, you know there is no new human ingenuity that remains to be seen.  You know that there are no new capabilities for humanity to show off.  Could you describe what, in particular, is worth living in between 'this moment wherein you've seen everything' and 'the rest of eternity'?  It's not the 'people achieving' thing - that's now off the table.  It's not the 'human ingenuity and imagination' thing - that's now off the table.  You've seen the things that eternity allows you to see.  Eventually, eternity will fulfill it's purpose of allowing you to see everything.  Now what?  Are you comfortable with the idea of oblivion at that point?  Why or why not?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: nogodsforme on April 06, 2016, 03:28:18 PM
One of the main things that makes life worth living is the fact that, someday, it will end. We will all run out of time. We will all want a few more days or months or years to do that one last thing on the bucket list. If you have a pretty good life, you will regret losing it.  And despite the rantings of the end-timers, most people today do have pretty good lives compared with any time in past history.[1]

In the not so distant past, the majority of people were slaves or so horribly oppressed they might as well have been enslaved. Poverty, hunger, disability, forced labor and brutal mistreatment were normal everyday life, not problems to be brought to general attention and corrected. No real treatment for diseases or even good pain relief was available. Nothing resembling justice or fairness by today's standards. You were a witch if the local wealthy landowner said you were. The wrong sexual identity or being an uppity female or the wrong ethnicity or wrong beliefs automatically meant your life would suck without letup; people could torture or even kill you for no other reason.   

No wonder the simple joys of Heaven, Valhalla, paradise, nirvana--whatever--were so attractive as to make people change their behavior.[2] The sad fact was that some chance of a different, less horrible existence after you died was your only hope of relief.

These days, very few people are so miserable (aside from the terminally ill with painful diseases, or clinically depressed people with messed up brain chemistry) that death is more attractive than continued life. So the hard-sell on heaven is quite a bit more difficult.

We have moved heaven away from a nice, quiet place where there are soft places to rest,  no hunger or pain, some light entertainment, and people just hanging out with friends and family instead of slaving away in the fields. That would be boring as hell to modern folks--eternity? Really? And besides, most people can have at least a temporary taste of that now. It's called the weekend, or the holiday vacation. Or retirement.

The afterlife these days has to be an eternal episode of Cosmos, or Nova, with god filling in for Carl Sagan and Neil DeGrasse Tyson. Add in a petting zoo with dinosaurs and unicorns, non-stop top name entertainment, perfect beaches and skiing, and a time machine to hang out with all the interesting figures from history. Indeed, in order to be attractive to the moderately comfortable 21st century believer, heaven has to be imagined as a cross between Universal Studios, Tokyo Disneyland, Branson/Dollywood, Dubai, Bali, the Swiss Alps, the Vegas Strip-- and the Smithsonian.

Even with all that, eternity is a long time. How many billion times do you want to visit Dollywood or Disneyland, anyway?  :P
 1. Defined as decent health, enough food to eat, a place to live, at least basic literacy, not being enslaved and nobody assaulting you, locking up in a dungeon or shooting at you with impunity. This just in: by 2020 about 5 billion people worldwide will have a cell phone!
 2. At least somewhat and mainly when other people besides god were watching. ;)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: jynnan tonnix on April 06, 2016, 03:48:18 PM
How about living forever and being around to witness the demise of the planet especially if it's a slow, miserable process. If overpopulation, global warming, pollution, etc., continue unabated, would you enjoy seeing that impact on humanity? If violence and terrorism become everyday occurrences in ever more corners of the world, would that be interesting to witness?

That's the trouble with living forever...It's nice to be optimistic and imagine a future where our problems are solved and feel cheated by not being able to be around for that time, but it's just as likely that we have already seen things be as good as they will ever get.

And even if we DO sort things out, the planet is not going to last forever. Something will take it out sooner or later, and the chances are that by the time that happens we will not have the technology (or time) to simply move elsewhere.

Do you envision existing in the vacuum of space for eternity after that, or is that when an afterlife kicks in?

I'm not trying to pick on you, by the way, I find these interesting things to think about.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: albeto on April 06, 2016, 05:22:04 PM
It's times like this where I wish there was one of those "happy cry" emoticons...

You might like this. Carl Sagan's, Pale Blue Dot.

I recommend the entire Cosmos series, both Sagan's and Tyson's. Brilliant. Informative. Sobering. Inspiring. You'll walk away with more knowledge than you knew you could handle. Hopefully, you'll also walk away with the desire to do something positive around you rather than waiting to die, hanging on a promise, one that is conclusively illogical, unreasonable, immature, and rather insulting and offensive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PN5JJDh78I

As for the eternal life being torture thing, I, at least, don't feel like it would be.  If I got to see people achieve things like traveling to other solar systems, or creating new film's and stories, that kind of thing would be worth living forever IMO.  To see everything that human ingenuity and imagination is capable of now and will be capable of is something I'd really want to be able to see.

All this talk about eternity brings to mind that Star Trek: Voyager episode called "Death Wish (http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Wish_(episode))." In this episode Quinn, a member of the Q, is arguing the right to commit suicide. He explains to Janeway that "when he was a respected philosopher he celebrated the purity the Q had reached and at the beginning of their era the Continuum was full of discussion on the discoveries and the issues that arose in the universe, but now everyone is silent because there is nothing left to say. Everything has already been said, and no-one has spoken to each other for ten millennia as a result."

I suppose I should have worded it more like this: "I feel there must be something more to life like a greater purpose for our existence, so I feel that some higher power must have been involved". 

That's so illogical, and frankly, childish. To demand a solution only because it fits with a desire is not reasonable. It's petty. It's selfish. Do you conduct other areas of discovery in your life like this? I imagine not, but for some reason, religion gets a pass when it comes to expectations of logic. Instead, we find people encouraging each other to suppress logic, suppress curiosity, and instead hang on really sincerely held true wishes as if they could really be true if they are believed hard enough.

Your arguments present really good examples of how your religion stunts intellectual and emotional growth. I find that not only frustrating, but alarmingly so. My culture is made up of people like you, people who genuinely want to do good things, who genuinely want others to be a peace, find joy, and not suffer, but people who will stop thinking critically and demand others around them pretend their deepest desires could really come true because they can wish it hard enough. Magical thinking isn't quaint, it's intrusive, it's damaging, it hinders progress by thwarting demonstrable solutions to known problems. It encourages people to be happy with ignorance, to celebrate gullibility, to value obedience over knowledge, to reward the ability to manipulate emotions. It is a demonstrable retardant to intellectual and emotional growth, and that doesn't serve the individual or society. It puts us all at risk.

I expect no one wants to feel like they are left out of the Great Experience. No one wants to be unimportant. But this idea of being the Belle of the Eternal Ball is not just silly, it's distracting you from things you could do to experience that right now. It's distracting you from identifying real problems, and contributing to their solution. Hell, you can even put your time to helping others feel that way. There are volunteer opportunities around you right now that would allow you to help some child, teen, or adult be the Belle of the Ball for the first time in their life. You can volunteer to help people learn to read, get enough food or blankets for the weekend, get well-needed respite from taking care of a special needs child, hold babies at the hospital, or any number of things that could replace your natural and understandable emotional desire to experience joy and inclusion with something more productive. If you live too far away to help in person, you can contribute online or through agencies and organizations. Or hey, you can simply enjoy your life, and bring that joy to others just by including them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlfKdbWwruY&nohtml5=False
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: CrystalDragon on April 06, 2016, 05:38:06 PM
You know, I have to say this... you guys are pretty inspiring people. :). And you make good points about the whol living forever thing, I wouldn't exactly want to live until the heat death of the universe or anything, that would be way too depressing.  Just watching everything around me fade away...

And Alberto, thanks for the Cosmos YouTube link. :). I watched some of Sagan's but not Tyson's yet, though I do enjoy watching the likes of Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman and How the Universe Works, so I'm sure I'd love those. :)

Also, I'll have to check out that Star Trek Voyager episode—I've seen the entire original series and loved it, all ofTNG and loved it more, and a few episodes of Voyager which I think is okay but no TNG (honestly I could talk about sci-fi showslikethat and Doctor Who all day, haha)

I really appreciate the points you guys are making, and you know what I appreciate most?  That none of you have made fun of me for being a theist, or really had me feel unwelcome.  You guys have had me challange my beliefs, sure, but gotten me to start to think more critically about them, and see that you can't just really wait for "eternal life just because you get to see the cool things everyone else will do in the future" kind of thing.  We have a limited time on Earth and we ought to live it, and I guess really that's how atheists most often see the world.  Really putting value into life because you're not just focusing on "the next one".

I actually was talking about this kind of thing with someone I know today, who basically said something similar: "Whatever you do, do in love, get out there and follow your dreams".   And that's something that I think can be agreed on whether you're a theist or atheist.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: nogodsforme on April 06, 2016, 07:00:07 PM
Here we try to criticize people's ideas, not them personally. Most of us were theists at some point. I would not have liked being made fun of when I was [trying to be] a believer, so why would I try to make someone else feel bad for no reason? Golden rule and all. 

And we are not about getting everyone who comes here to agree with some platform of atheist commandments or some such silliness. We are about as diverse as they come and that is what makes it fun to be here.

That, I think, is a big difference between this site and many religious discussion forums where they insult, restrict or outright ban people who disagree with them. You go and read the long statements of faith that you are supposed to sign onto at Christian forums. They tell you exactly what you are supposed to think, and what kind of ideas are not allowed.

You either agree to conform, or else you are relegated to a separate part of the site where your ideas will not contaminate the rest of the participants. Not even all Christian denominations are accepted. Some explicitly exclude Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Adventists, Mormons, Orthodox, Unitarians, non-born-agains and on and on. They tell you which version of the bible is allowed. You can only imagine what they think of Sikhs, Buddhists or Muslims! I have not joined any of those sites-- who has the time to waste with such narrow-minded people?

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: CrystalDragon on November 27, 2017, 12:43:47 PM
Came back to this thread after over a year and a half to change my votes. Time flies, huh?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Mr. Death on December 03, 2017, 11:01:51 PM
Wow. I consider myself a gnostic monotheist.  I am quite surprised it got the third highest vote on the list on an atheist forum.  I have no problem with being one though as "delusional" as it may sound. Don't worry. You folks have nothing to fear from me. I am not a "fundy" crazy like the Westboro Baptist's or anything like that.  I have no problem with anybody living their life the way they have the right to live it. Free. You are all free to believe, or not believe as you see fit. It has nothing to do with my faith.  About that : I accept the definition of faith. The belief in something with no actual evidence. I believe in something even though it may not be true. I am good with it. I hope you all are. I couldn't introduce myself because I guess I have to write three thoughtful posts. Well here is my attempt at a first post. :) Peace.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: wright on December 03, 2017, 11:28:29 PM
Welcome, Mr. Death. Always good to have a newcomer, be they theist or atheist. I look forward to seeing you around the forum.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: shnozzola on December 04, 2017, 07:09:15 AM
Hello Sir,
     Welcome.   Brad Pitt did an excellent job as you in the movie, " Mr. Black". (Yes Charles Grassley - I love movies)    Enjoy the forum, enjoy the debate.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: YouCantHandleTheTruth on December 04, 2017, 09:03:45 AM
Wow. I consider myself a gnostic monotheist.  I am quite surprised it got the third highest vote on the list on an atheist forum.  I have no problem with being one though as "delusional" as it may sound. Don't worry. You folks have nothing to fear from me. I am not a "fundy" crazy like the Westboro Baptist's or anything like that.  I have no problem with anybody living their life the way they have the right to live it. Free. You are all free to believe, or not believe as you see fit. It has nothing to do with my faith.  About that : I accept the definition of faith. The belief in something with no actual evidence. I believe in something even though it may not be true. I am good with it. I hope you all are. I couldn't introduce myself because I guess I have to write three thoughtful posts. Well here is my attempt at a first post. :) Peace.

Welcome to the forum Mr. Death.  As has been pointed out earlier in this thread, people don't criticize anyone personally here - it's all about challenging their beliefs.  That's it.  The back and forth tends to remain very civil unless one of the parties becomes very evasive in answering questions.

I'll start you out with a couple of pretty general questions.  You're describing yourself as a gnostic monotheist, but also appear to admit that you don't have any evidence, just faith.  So I'm wondering if you see faith as the same thing as knowledge?  Also, if you see faith as a good pathway to truth?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nick on December 04, 2017, 09:19:02 AM
Wow. I consider myself a gnostic monotheist.  I am quite surprised it got the third highest vote on the list on an atheist forum.  I have no problem with being one though as "delusional" as it may sound. Don't worry. You folks have nothing to fear from me. I am not a "fundy" crazy like the Westboro Baptist's or anything like that.  I have no problem with anybody living their life the way they have the right to live it. Free. You are all free to believe, or not believe as you see fit. It has nothing to do with my faith.  About that : I accept the definition of faith. The belief in something with no actual evidence. I believe in something even though it may not be true. I am good with it. I hope you all are. I couldn't introduce myself because I guess I have to write three thoughtful posts. Well here is my attempt at a first post. :) Peace.
You are not that guy who people see right before they die...right???
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: jdawg70 on December 04, 2017, 11:49:52 AM
About that : I accept the definition of faith. The belief in something with no actual evidence. I believe in something even though it may not be true. I am good with it. I hope you all are.
I'm not sure I would say that I'm 'good' with believing something that may or may not be true.  I've accepted it certainly - it is very, very, very possible that some things that I accept as 'true' are, in fact, not true.  Sounds like you do is as well, but I am curious if you'd be able to expand on what you mean by being good with believing something that may not be true.

This old thread may be of interest to you, not really to revive it or anything, but it may help to calibrate you on how discussions regarding 'faith' can go around here:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,27596.29.html

I tend to believe that those who put forward the definition of 'faith' that you've put forward - belief in something with no actual evidence - and who embrace that faith fall into one of two categories:
1) You do not actually believe that, and there are situations where you will heavily lean on the word 'faith' to describe your relationship with your religion that have little to nothing to do with 'belief in something with no actual evidence'.  Often times this will be circumstances where 'faith' and 'trust' share many, many similarities.
2) You do actually believe that, and what it is you purport to have 'faith' in is so nebulous that discussions revolving around what you have 'faith' in read no different than a group exercise in writing fan fiction (i.e. if Leia had better control over the Force than Ben[1], she could reasonably defeat him in battle[2]).

I am sure there are more categories than that but those are the two that I generally see.  You may fall into one of those other categories.  You may defy categorization.  Don't know.

...
......

Is faith useful in distinguishing between what is true and what is not true?  Do you ever use faith to distinguish between what is true and what is not true?
 1. If god could flood the entire world in 40 days...
 2. ...he could have caused a global flood to eliminate evil[1].
 1. Whether or not he succeeded in defeating evil is...subject to discussion.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on December 04, 2017, 12:17:50 PM
Everybody needs to have faith in something. It could be as simple as trusting the community you find yourself living in. When people loose all faith in anything, they sometimes decide to lash out. Sometimes they just take themselves out. Sometimes they just languish in a general malaise.

I don't have much faith in religion but I still have faith in humanity. The way I view it, people of religion are a part of humanity. I still have faith in the democratic process. I have faith in my friends and family. I have faith in this community. Even though all these things have been shaken from time to time, I've never let go of my faith. 

Having said all this, I have no faith that a loving, caring, all knowing God who has a vested interest in my life, or what I do with it, exists.

Musical interlude
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E9pj4U602A
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: jdawg70 on December 04, 2017, 12:21:42 PM
Everybody needs to have faith in something. It could be as simple as trusting the community you find yourself living in. When people loose all faith in anything, they sometimes decide to lash out. Sometimes they just take theselves out. Sometimes they just languish in a general malaise.

I don't have much faith in religion but I still have faith in humanity. They way I view it, people of religion are a part of humanity. I still have faith in the democratic process. I have faith in my friends and family. I have faith in this community even if it has been shaken from time to time.

Having said all this, I have no faith that a loving, caring, all knowing God who has a vested interest in my life, or what I do with it, exists.

Musical interlude
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E9pj4U602A

Would you say that the faith you have in humanity is similar to whatever faith Mr. Death is talking about here?  The without evidence bit?

I guess - do you distinguish between 'faith' and 'hope' in what you've written above, and if so, what is that distinction exactly?  Would you be willing to say that you do not have any evidence that your friends and family would be there for you in times of need[1]?

What qualifies as 'shaking your faith' in your friends and family, in your community?
 1. I'm extrapolating a bit here.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: velkyn on December 04, 2017, 12:25:18 PM
there's faith, with is based no nothing, and trust, which generally is.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: albeto on December 04, 2017, 07:49:06 PM
there's faith, with is based no nothing, and trust, which generally is.

I never understood why the word "faith" is used in the way that assumes some element of knowledge. Maybe because religious faith has been considered such a virtue for so long that people apply it to this context? Like to give the concept an extra level of trust when feeling hopeless? I don't know. In my experience, people don't like to think about why they think or believe what they do. They just like to be soothed when things are rough. Words like this sound soothing, I guess?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: shnozzola on December 04, 2017, 08:07:21 PM
   I've said before, the idea of faith is very real, but we need to view it as what we must do, and that is, to have faith in each other.  It is all we ever have had.  Scary for the future in the age of Donald Trump and ISIS and nukes and our various hatreds of one another.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: albeto on December 04, 2017, 08:31:29 PM
   I've said before, the idea of faith is very real, but we need to view it as what we must do, and that is, to have faith in each other.

So when I read this, I think of "faith in each other" to mean "trust each other to do the right thing." I don't have faith in people like Trump precisely because I don't trust them to do the right thing, as I understand the right thing to be. Instead, I trust he'll behave similarly to the ways in which he's behaved in the past. I trust him to be consistent. I trust my husband to do the right thing because he has a track record of doing the right thing, even when that thing is difficult. I trust him to be consistent. I don't see that as faith, if we are accepting faith is belief without evidence. A trend of behavior gives us enough information to make somewhat accurate predictions, and I see that as having an element of evidence. Maybe that's why the word "faith" is used in this context? Because our predictions aren't always right, and so there seems to be the element of randomness, of lacking evidence.

Just thinking out loud.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: shnozzola on December 04, 2017, 08:51:01 PM
   I  mean, collectively - humanity -  it is all we have.  Probably it starts with our spouses, and like Mr. B said in the other thread he has started - our children, knowing we raised them right.  But let's expand that to say, we need to have faith that the Chinese government has sense.  And that makes things so difficult, suspecting that our own president Trump doesn't have the sense humanity collectively needs, but then doing what is necessary to get him to do the right thing.        I'm also just thinking out loud.

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: jdawg70 on December 04, 2017, 10:10:56 PM
A trend of behavior gives us enough information to make somewhat accurate predictions, and I see that as having an element of evidence. Maybe that's why the word "faith" is used in this context? Because our predictions aren't always right, and so there seems to be the element of randomness, of lacking evidence.

That's the way I see it a lot of the time - wherein 'faith' is meant to construe some region between 'not accepting as true or morally right[1] and 'accepting as true or morally right'.  It's a way to convey confidence in the truth value of the claim that is less than purporting knowledge but more than lacking possession of the belief in the truth value of that claim, and definitely different from possessing belief in the falseness of the claim.

I think that's why, in conversations with OldChurchGuy at least, I find him oddly leaning on 'certainty', as if when someone makes a claim 'I know x' they mean to say 'I know that x is true with definitive certainty that cannot, in principle, be epistemologically deemed false or incorrect in any meaningful way'.   Like, no, most people mean 'I know that x is true to the best of my ability, within some degree of confidence'.  Now sometimes that confidence is 'really damn confident' (sun will rise in the morning), sometimes it is 'pretty confident' (car will start in the morning), sometimes it is 'kinda confident' (I left my keys in my right jacket pocket), sometimes it is 'confident-ish' (my next dental cleaning is scheduled for, like, the 3rd week of March or something like that).

OldChurchGuy's use of the word 'faith' seems to be a modifier word to inform the listener that they are at least less than 'really damn confident'.  Exactly where that lies...I dunno.  What that really means - still not clear on that either.  If we add into the mix Mr. Death's explanation of faith - that is, acceptance of a claim as true absent any evidence indicating the truth-value of that claim, I am left wondering how one increases or decreases that confidence level.  It seems to exist on the exact same spectrum as how one would adjust confidence when not talking about faith - evidence - but with the way Mr. Death is explaining faith, and as how I understand OldChurchGuy's relationship to faith, one can't do that.  And I do not understand why that is.

But basically if you read people using the word 'faith' as 'expressing less then certain confidence' I think you end up with what you're thinking out loud about.  It boils down to being non-committal, which is why certain breed of fundy-super-Christians look down upon such 'weak' faith.  Commitment is central to what they understand faith to mean.  Increasing faith is a matter of believing harder.
 1. I have noticed that sometimes these conversations muddle the distinction between 'moral correctness' and 'factual correctness', which may not always be a problem but it makes communication more difficult.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: screwtape on December 05, 2017, 08:20:23 AM
Don't worry. You folks have nothing to fear from me. I am not a "fundy" crazy like the Westboro Baptist's or anything like that. 

We have plenty to fear from you.  You don’t have to be westboro Baptist to be dangerous. 

I accept the definition of faith. The belief in something with no actual evidence. I believe in something even though it may not be true. I am good with it.

See?  That right there is dangerous. 

Also, to add to jdawg’s point, faith has multiple meanings and is thus ambiguous.  Avoid using it whenever possible.

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: MikeTheUnconvinced on December 05, 2017, 07:56:26 PM
My position is agnostic atheist but I'm very near 100% certain that no gods exist. There just has not been any convincing evidence since...ever...that any supernatural beings exist!  :)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Mr. Death on December 05, 2017, 11:20:55 PM
Don't worry. You folks have nothing to fear from me. I am not a "fundy" crazy like the Westboro Baptist's or anything like that. 

We have plenty to fear from you.  You don’t have to be westboro Baptist to be dangerous. 

I accept the definition of faith. The belief in something with no actual evidence. I believe in something even though it may not be true. I am good with it.

See?  That right there is dangerous. 

Also, to add to jdawg’s point, faith has multiple meanings and is thus ambiguous.  Avoid using it whenever possible.

There is nothing dangerous about what I said. No offense man, but that seems to be a bit of an alarmist reaction on your part. 
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: One Above All on December 06, 2017, 05:22:20 AM
Don't worry. You folks have nothing to fear from me. I am not a "fundy" crazy like the Westboro Baptist's or anything like that. 

We have plenty to fear from you.  You don’t have to be westboro Baptist to be dangerous. 

I accept the definition of faith. The belief in something with no actual evidence. I believe in something even though it may not be true. I am good with it.

See?  That right there is dangerous. 

Also, to add to jdawg’s point, faith has multiple meanings and is thus ambiguous.  Avoid using it whenever possible.

There is nothing dangerous about what I said. No offense man, but that seems to be a bit of an alarmist reaction on your part.

Belief in something for which there is no evidence and being comfortable with the idea is how every religious war in history started. It's how people got still get slaughtered just for having a different skin color. It's how people are kept under control. It is very dangerous, if you take two seconds to think about it, or know anything about history.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: jdawg70 on December 06, 2017, 10:18:43 AM
There is nothing dangerous about what I said. No offense man, but that seems to be a bit of an alarmist reaction on your part.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by 'faith' and what you mean by 'being good with believing something that may not be true'.

Mr. Death, do you think that the decisions you make and the actions you take that may or may not affect people who are not you are in someway informed by what you believe, in particular, those beliefs that you have out of faith (i.e. beliefs that you hold that have no evidence for their truth-value)?

I think that when people make decisions, those decisions are in some way informed by their beliefs (i.e. I decide not to eat the urinal cake for breakfast as I believe that consumption of urinals cakes would make me ill).  Those decisions in some way inform their actions (i.e. I flush the toilet; I do not reach down to pick up the urinal cake; I buy a protein bar from the vending machine).

Would someone's belief that 'entity x will prevent my child from falling into a diabetic coma with greater success than calling an ambulance' possibly be dangerous?  Do you think someone who holds such a belief does so based on the preponderance of the evidence or, possibly, as a belief born of and supported by faith?

I guess...Mr. Death, would you agree that it is possibly dangerous to believe things regarding the reality we all occupy that are not actually true?  Dangerous for the person holding those beliefs?  Dangerous for other persons who can be affected by the decisions and actions of the person holding those beliefs?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: velkyn on December 06, 2017, 10:29:51 AM
My position is agnostic atheist but I'm very near 100% certain that no gods exist. There just has not been any convincing evidence since...ever...that any supernatural beings exist!  :)

hi mike,

were you ever a theist?  Most folks here tend to be ex-theists, but some never had to deal with the nonsense.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: screwtape on December 06, 2017, 10:58:56 AM
I accept the definition of faith. The belief in something with no actual evidence. I believe in something even though it may not be true. I am good with it.

There is nothing dangerous about what I said. No offense man, but that seems to be a bit of an alarmist reaction on your part.

No offense taken. 

Question for you, though.  How do we tell what is real or true from what is not?

What prevents you from believing vampires, faeries, zeus and supply side economics are real?  Or do you believe in those things too? 
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: CrystalDragon on December 06, 2017, 11:53:24 AM
I forgot to mention about my change in vote.

One year ago, I voted gnostic monotheist and agnostic deist. Now my vote is on "Any type of henotheist" and "agnostic deist".
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: YouCantHandleTheTruth on December 06, 2017, 12:24:05 PM
My position is agnostic atheist but I'm very near 100% certain that no gods exist. There just has not been any convincing evidence since...ever...that any supernatural beings exist!  :)

Welcome to the board Mike.  I echo your sentiments exactly.  Gods sure come across as a human concept, especially since there have been so many of them in different countries over time.

I often hear the argument "but why would so many people in different countries over time believe in God?"  But people located in different places can think of very similar things on their own, like music, clothes, fictional literature, etc.  Just as you notice that Gods are different in different regions, so are the types of food, music, languages, etc.   And who's to say travelers didn't reach other countries very early on and do missionary work way back when, even before Biblical times? 
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Jag on December 06, 2017, 12:48:23 PM
It certainly appears that this God guy needed European ships to get him across the ocean to the Americas. Funny how a little thing like an ocean is enough to keep a God looked in place.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: YouCantHandleTheTruth on December 06, 2017, 03:46:52 PM
It certainly appears that this God guy needed European ships to get him across the ocean to the Americas. Funny how a little thing like an ocean is enough to keep a God looked in place.

I know, also should be a huge issue for Christians.  I don't think history shows that when the British and Spanish settlers entered the New World that the Native Americans were saying "Oh yeah, don't worry we already know about Jesus, we're on board."  No, it's likely they had it rammed down their throats by the settlers while they stole their artwork, gold, etc.

Isn't the concept of missionaries odd to begin with?  Why would you even need them?  Wouldn't these people already know that Jesus is the answer?  But at my old church I remember pastors saying "God likes using humans to do his work, to give us a purpose."  They would cite people like Moses - "see, Moses was someone who struggled with speech, and look how God used him" and so on. 

There's an answer for everything.  "But what about those that the missionaries never reach?  What happens to them?"  Answer: "Well they get to go to heaven because you can't be blamed in that situation."  That leads back to "Then I'm better off not evangelizing to anyone.  Once they hear about Jesus, they have no excuses and it sets up the risk of hell." 

These are the types of points that need to be made, calmly, to theists.  Yes, most of them won't listen, but at least we can say "this is one of the reasons I"m an agnostic atheist."  I've told my Christian friends often "I'll calmly tell you my top 5-10 reasons why  I don't believe in your God", just like I'm sure most of you have done. Some will entertain you and let you talk, but they're not really listening - and will preach to you a week later.  Others won't even let you talk.  I'm not sure it's worth even dealing with them.  A true Christian friend will at least let you voice your opinions, just as you let them explain why they believe what they do.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Mr. Death on December 16, 2017, 07:02:33 PM
I accept the definition of faith. The belief in something with no actual evidence. I believe in something even though it may not be true. I am good with it.

There is nothing dangerous about what I said. No offense man, but that seems to be a bit of an alarmist reaction on your part.

No offense taken. 

Question for you, though.  How do we tell what is real or true from what is not?

What prevents you from believing vampires, faeries, zeus and supply side economics are real?  Or do you believe in those things too?

Supply side economics is a real thing.  I just hope it never gets put into full practice. It's kind of stupid. We do need taxes and regulation. Just not too much at once.  No I don't believe in vampires, faeries,  aliens abducting us, flat earth, young earth creationism, "Literal" biblical creationism, big foot, El Chupacabra, nor the mole men, with a leader who is a talking flower. 

I can see EXACTLY where you are going here. Santa Clause doesn't exist so neither does God.  I don't believe in vampires so how can I believe in God?  NO offense but it's the same old thing. We know that vampires are fictional. We can even track down the authors who created them in their imagination.   The bible is not so easy to track. Who were the authors?  Nobody knows.  As far as the gospels in the New Testament goes,  four different authors have four different opinions.  History at  that time is sketchy at best.  SO I can have faith....literal faith that some aspects of the New Testament could be true in my opinion.  After all, that is exactly what it is.  An opinion. An opinion that nobody can possibly prove wrong or correct as long as we are locked in this dimension and timeline.

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nick on December 16, 2017, 10:20:51 PM
Mole men are real.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on December 17, 2017, 10:31:29 AM
History at  that time is sketchy at best.  SO I can have faith....literal faith that some aspects of the New Testament could be true in my opinion.

Poor reasoning. Gaps in knowledge are gaps. Filling gaps with beliefs leads to unreliable conclusions. The contradictions in religions around the world shows that faith and belief are not reliable ways to fill gaps in knowledge.

Quote
After all, that is exactly what it is.  An opinion. An opinion that nobody can possibly prove wrong or correct as long as we are locked in this dimension and timeline.

So you want to believe an unreliable opinion merely because you think it cannot be proved wrong. Is it really a good idea to believe something merely because it cannot be proved wrong?

You are also factually incorrect that Christianity cannot be proved wrong. Take Matthew's gospel which was written as an elaborate metaphor of the OT, Moses and a new Torah. For example too much ink has been wasted proving that the birth stories are not historical. They were not intended to be. They are a metaphorical replay of the OT. Similarly the physical resurrection and graves opening in Matthew is a metaphor based on Isaiah and what what supposed to happen. It is not a historical description. Neither are the gospel resurrection stories which developed later. The earliest descriptions of the resurrection in the letters of Saul say that the resurrection was a vision and specifically deny that there was a physical resurrection since flesh and bone cannot be resurrected. The visions of Saul are based on his preconceived cosmology which bears no relationship to reality. Likewise the vision of the disciples seeing Jesus float up to the clouds of heaven is based on contemporary cosmology about souls floating up to the gates of heaven in the solid dome above the flat Earth. You can see the same thing carved on the arch of Domitian in Rome at the same time, where the soul of the emperor Titus is taken up to heaven by an eagle.

Matthew edited Mark's gospel into a new gospel because he could see that Mark had misunderstood his sources. Mark failed to understand that many of his stories were based on OT stories and edited with Jesus instead of Elija or Elisha. Mark starts with a famous misquote which does not exist. Matthew recognized that Mark was writing a religious treatise based on hearsay and OT quotes rather than history so Matthew felt free to correct Mark's literary sources and remodel the gospel to favour the disciples, whereas Mark wrote against the disciples and denied their historical bumbling peasant political rebel Jesus in order to promote Saul's unreal perfect visonary Jesus. Matthew's attitude to Mark can be seen in the story about the women at the tomb where Mark says they told no one. Matthew knew that Mark was not writing history so he felt free to change the story and say the exact opposite that the women did tell the disciples. By Matthew's time the disciples were safely dead so he could use them as literary figures in a Jewish metaphorical gospel.

Just as Mark's sect based on Saul was hostile to the disciples, so was John's sect which got around the problem of sidelining the disciples and their political rebel Jesus by inventing a fictional greatest disciple of their own. Jesus and the disciples had very little to do with the main sects of Christianity which only developed them as literary figures to serve as mouthpieces of the sect's own ideas. By the time the Second letter of Peter was written, about a hundred years later, we can read that that some of the Christian sects were calling the gospels "cleverly devised myths". Obviously some of the sects still knew that the gospels were not historical texts.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Mr. Death on December 17, 2017, 01:02:49 PM
History at  that time is sketchy at best.  SO I can have faith....literal faith that some aspects of the New Testament could be true in my opinion.

Poor reasoning. Gaps in knowledge are gaps. Filling gaps with beliefs leads to unreliable conclusions. The contradictions in religions around the world shows that faith and belief are not reliable ways to fill gaps in knowledge.

Quote
After all, that is exactly what it is.  An opinion. An opinion that nobody can possibly prove wrong or correct as long as we are locked in this dimension and timeline.

So you want to believe an unreliable opinion merely because you think it cannot be proved wrong. Is it really a good idea to believe something merely because it cannot be proved wrong?

You are also factually incorrect that Christianity cannot be proved wrong. Take Matthew's gospel which was written as an elaborate metaphor of the OT, Moses and a new Torah. For example too much ink has been wasted proving that the birth stories are not historical. They were not intended to be. They are a metaphorical replay of the OT. Similarly the physical resurrection and graves opening in Matthew is a metaphor based on Isaiah and what what supposed to happen. It is not a historical description. Neither are the gospel resurrection stories which developed later. The earliest descriptions of the resurrection in the letters of Saul say that the resurrection was a vision and specifically deny that there was a physical resurrection since flesh and bone cannot be resurrected. The visions of Saul are based on his preconceived cosmology which bears no relationship to reality. Likewise the vision of the disciples seeing Jesus float up to the clouds of heaven is based on contemporary cosmology about souls floating up to the gates of heaven in the solid dome above the flat Earth. You can see the same thing carved on the arch of Domitian in Rome at the same time, where the soul of the emperor Titus is taken up to heaven by an eagle.

Matthew edited Mark's gospel into a new gospel because he could see that Mark had misunderstood his sources. Mark failed to understand that many of his stories were based on OT stories and edited with Jesus instead of Elija or Elisha. Mark starts with a famous misquote which does not exist. Matthew recognized that Mark was writing a religious treatise based on hearsay and OT quotes rather than history so Matthew felt free to correct Mark's literary sources and remodel the gospel to favour the disciples, whereas Mark wrote against the disciples and denied their historical bumbling peasant political rebel Jesus in order to promote Saul's unreal perfect visonary Jesus. Matthew's attitude to Mark can be seen in the story about the women at the tomb where Mark says they told no one. Matthew knew that Mark was not writing history so he felt free to change the story and say the exact opposite that the women did tell the disciples. By Matthew's time the disciples were safely dead so he could use them as literary figures in a Jewish metaphorical gospel.

Just as Mark's sect based on Saul was hostile to the disciples, so was John's sect which got around the problem of sidelining the disciples and their political rebel Jesus by inventing a fictional greatest disciple of their own. Jesus and the disciples had very little to do with the main sects of Christianity which only developed them as literary figures to serve as mouthpieces of the sect's own ideas. By the time the Second letter of Peter was written, about a hundred years later, we can read that that some of the Christian sects were calling the gospels "cleverly devised myths". Obviously some of the sects still knew that the gospels were not historical texts.


Okay. I appreciate the effort you took to write this but I never once said that "Jesus" actually resurrected from the dead.  He was probably just a prophet like Muhammad.  Furthermore I never claimed  that the gospels were factually historical.  Not once.  I've shown typos in a bible I own to to other Christians to show them that the bible is not infallible.  Furthermore, I do not require education on the subject.    :) 
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: jdawg70 on December 17, 2017, 01:28:45 PM
Okay. I appreciate the effort you took to write this but I never once said that "Jesus" actually resurrected from the dead.  He was probably just a prophet like Muhammad.  Furthermore I never claimed  that the gospels were factually historical.  Not once.  I've shown typos in a bible I own to to other Christians to show them that the bible is not infallible.  Furthermore, I do not require education on the subject.    :)

Do you consider yourself a Christian?  If so, is salvation a concept that is part of your Christianity?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: velkyn on December 17, 2017, 06:19:27 PM
Okay. I appreciate the effort you took to write this but I never once said that "Jesus" actually resurrected from the dead.  He was probably just a prophet like Muhammad.  Furthermore I never claimed  that the gospels were factually historical.  Not once.  I've shown typos in a bible I own to to other Christians to show them that the bible is not infallible.  Furthermore, I do not require education on the subject.    :)

it seems you've invented your own version of Christianity, like the rest of the Christians.  And the concept of vampires has been around quite a long time, to the point of not knowing who invented the idea (a good part of my heritages is centered around the Carpathian Mountains). Does that make them believable now?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Mr. Death on December 17, 2017, 08:14:30 PM
Okay. I appreciate the effort you took to write this but I never once said that "Jesus" actually resurrected from the dead.  He was probably just a prophet like Muhammad.  Furthermore I never claimed  that the gospels were factually historical.  Not once.  I've shown typos in a bible I own to to other Christians to show them that the bible is not infallible.  Furthermore, I do not require education on the subject.    :)

Do you consider yourself a Christian?  If so, is salvation a concept that is part of your Christianity?

I consider myself a Christian in a philosophical sense. I am uncertain if "Jesus" was the actual Son of God. A lot of Jesus's teachings are universally benevolent. Before Jesus, Confucius also taught some very similar if not identical things. Ghandi, similar as well. These very wise individuals aren't born everyday. Our society would have suffered without such wisdom.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: albeto on December 17, 2017, 09:54:30 PM
A lot of Jesus's teachings are universally benevolent. Before Jesus, Confucius also taught some very similar if not identical things. Ghandi, similar as well. These very wise individuals aren't born everyday. Our society would have suffered without such wisdom.

More of them aren't. In general do you dismiss the damaging ideas one puts into motion because the same person had some good ideas? And actually, can you think of one idea Jesus taught that he came up with himself?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: jdawg70 on December 17, 2017, 10:21:40 PM
Do you consider yourself a Christian?  If so, is salvation a concept that is part of your Christianity?

I consider myself a Christian in a philosophical sense. I am uncertain if "Jesus" was the actual Son of God. A lot of Jesus's teachings are universally benevolent. Before Jesus, Confucius also taught some very similar if not identical things. Ghandi, similar as well. These very wise individuals aren't born everyday. Our society would have suffered without such wisdom.

I take it then that salvation isn't a concept that is a part of your Christianity?

Why do you consider yourself a Christian in a philosophical sense, and not a Confuscianist in a philosophical sense?  Or a Hindu in a philosophical sense?

What about your philosophy would you consider primarily 'Christian', as opposed to being primarily 'Confucian' or 'Hindu' or 'humanist' or 'secular' or 'caring about others' or 'perceiving morality as the consequences of our actions on ourselves an others'?  Like, what wisdom from Jesus or Confucius or Ghandi did you or society acquire that is in any way specifically Christian, Confucian, or Hindu?  Anything at all?

I get that you consider yourself unorthodox, but what degree of 'unorthodox' is too unorthodox?  I could call myself an unorthodox vegan but my continual consumption of animal based products and animal flesh really stretch the use of the word 'unorthodox' in that context.  I don't know if this is a circumstance of misuse of 'unorthodox'.  I feel like...most other Christians on this forum would say that you are sufficiently unorthodox enough to not be legitimately Christian (insofar as you reject the resurrection of Jesus as a means of providing you with salvation).  Just throwing that out there.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on December 17, 2017, 11:45:20 PM
Okay. I appreciate the effort you took to write this but I never once said that "Jesus" actually resurrected from the dead.  He was probably just a prophet like Muhammad.  Furthermore I never claimed  that the gospels were factually historical.  Not once.  I've shown typos in a bible I own to to other Christians to show them that the bible is not infallible.  Furthermore, I do not require education on the subject.    :)

Do you consider yourself a Christian?  If so, is salvation a concept that is part of your Christianity?

I consider myself a Christian in a philosophical sense. I am uncertain if "Jesus" was the actual Son of God. A lot of Jesus's teachings are universally benevolent. Before Jesus, Confucius also taught some very similar if not identical things. Ghandi, similar as well. These very wise individuals aren't born everyday. Our society would have suffered without such wisdom.

Apparently you do need education on the subject since you claim to know that Jesus had teachings and to know what they are. Experts cannot pin down which if any teachings go back to Jesus since all of the criteria have proved to be unreliable. Perhaps you have some magic criteria which allow you to know which teachings do go back to Jesus. Please share your magical sources of knowledge if you have them.

What is known is that many of the teachings were composed by members of the early sects to suit themselves or in Greek by the authors of the gospels for the purpose of their narrative. The various sects had divergent ideas about Jesus and it looks as if Jesus was just a bumbling rebel peasant with no coherent teaching at all which any sects could agree on. Saul complained to his converts about the Jews coming to them teaching different Jesuses and different gospels. That was only twenty years or so after Jesus was executed and already, even then no one could agree what Jesus actually taught, if anything.

Your statement that you are uncertain if Jesus was the son of some god or other, is absurd. There is no reason to be uncertain. If Jesus was a son of a god, the sources would not be "sketchy" as you said above. Everyone would know exactly what Jesus said and did, and his message would be the clearest message in the world, not the religion of 40,000 sects all arguing about what to believe and do.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: screwtape on December 18, 2017, 04:17:43 PM
Supply side economics is a real thing. 

It’s not.  I mean, it’s real as in, there is an idea called supply side economics.  But not real as in, it will not do what it claims.  Like jack and the beanstalk.  Or, you know, jesus H.

No I don't believe in vampires, faeries,  aliens abducting us, flat earth, young earth creationism, "Literal" biblical creationism, big foot, El Chupacabra, nor the mole men, with a leader who is a talking flower. 

Great!  Good to know!

Why not?

NO offense but it's the same old thing. We know that vampires are fictional. We can even track down the authors who created them in their imagination.   

Oh yeah?  Go ahead, then.  Track ‘em down.  But you’ll never do it.  Sure, you may say Anne Rice or Bram Stoker, but vampire stories predate them by a long shot.  The idea of vampires goes back centuries and centuries.  They were folk stories.  You will not find the authors of those.  Looks like vampires have more in common with jesus H besides coming back from the dead!

We could take another fictional character who isn’t as easy to dismiss as vampires.  How about a god?  How about Zeus?  You can be dismissive and say he’s made up too.  But why not do the same thing with the Hebrew deity?  Why one and not the other?  It’s not that easy, even with vampires.  You have not started to question why you think you know vampires aren’t real.

And what I asked was how do you tell real from fiction with faith?  Do you think faith is a good tool for doing that?

The bible is not so easy to track. Who were the authors?  Nobody knows.

???  So having less information about it makes it more reliable and more likely to be true?  I don’t find that to be a winning argument.

SO I can have faith....literal faith that some aspects of the New Testament could be true in my opinion. 

I don’t know what you mean by “literal faith”.  As if the word faith Isn’t confusing enough.  Sure, parts of it could be true.  But that’s not saying anything, is it?  Parts of Harry Potter are true too.

After all, that is exactly what it is.  An opinion. An opinion that nobody can possibly prove wrong or correct as long as we are locked in this dimension and timeline.

That doesn’t sound like much of a commitment.  You sound quite casual.  Which is fine.  People here may jump to conclusions though.

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Mr. Death on December 21, 2017, 03:25:21 PM
Supply side economics is a real thing. 

It’s not.  I mean, it’s real as in, there is an idea called supply side economics.  But not real as in, it will not do what it claims.  Like jack and the beanstalk.  Or, you know, jesus H.

No I don't believe in vampires, faeries,  aliens abducting us, flat earth, young earth creationism, "Literal" biblical creationism, big foot, El Chupacabra, nor the mole men, with a leader who is a talking flower. 

Great!  Good to know!

Why not?

NO offense but it's the same old thing. We know that vampires are fictional. We can even track down the authors who created them in their imagination.   

Oh yeah?  Go ahead, then.  Track ‘em down.  But you’ll never do it.  Sure, you may say Anne Rice or Bram Stoker, but vampire stories predate them by a long shot.  The idea of vampires goes back centuries and centuries.  They were folk stories.  You will not find the authors of those.  Looks like vampires have more in common with jesus H besides coming back from the dead!

We could take another fictional character who isn’t as easy to dismiss as vampires.  How about a god?  How about Zeus?  You can be dismissive and say he’s made up too.  But why not do the same thing with the Hebrew deity?  Why one and not the other?  It’s not that easy, even with vampires.  You have not started to question why you think you know vampires aren’t real.

And what I asked was how do you tell real from fiction with faith?  Do you think faith is a good tool for doing that?

The bible is not so easy to track. Who were the authors?  Nobody knows.

???  So having less information about it makes it more reliable and more likely to be true?  I don’t find that to be a winning argument.

SO I can have faith....literal faith that some aspects of the New Testament could be true in my opinion. 

I don’t know what you mean by “literal faith”.  As if the word faith Isn’t confusing enough.  Sure, parts of it could be true.  But that’s not saying anything, is it?  Parts of Harry Potter are true too.

After all, that is exactly what it is.  An opinion. An opinion that nobody can possibly prove wrong or correct as long as we are locked in this dimension and timeline.

That doesn’t sound like much of a commitment.  You sound quite casual.  Which is fine.  People here may jump to conclusions though.

I am quite casual Screwtape. I don't take anything too serious these days. The world's a friggin' joke.  Always has been. 

I don't believe in vampires and the mole men and all that other stuff because of science. There is no evidence of such things. It's probably the same reason why you don't believe in God. Unless I am mistaken.  The reason I believe in the one God goes much deeper than that and it would be difficult to explain to some people.  When a scientific hypothesis can't be tested then what would be the point of trying to explain it?   It could never be proven in this dimension.  I could not anticipate or control or test the reaction of a being who possibly resides in a higher dimensional plane than our own.

I accept the definition of the word "faith". Faith : Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.  I can't prove what is impossible to prove so I don't waste my energy.  I am no threat to your beliefs or lack of. You are not a threat to my faith because I know what it is.  It can't be threatened or harmed.





Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: velkyn on December 21, 2017, 03:30:11 PM
I don't believe in vampires and the mole men and all that other stuff because of science. There is no evidence of such things. It's probably the same reason why you don't believe in God. Unless I am mistaken.  The reason I believe in the one God goes much deeper than that and it would be difficult to explain to some people.  When a scientific hypothesis can't be tested then what would be the point of trying to explain it?   It could never be proven in this dimension.  I could not anticipate or control or test the reaction of a being who possibly resides in a higher dimensional plane than our own.

I accept the definition of the word "faith". Faith : Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.  I can't prove what is impossible to prove so I don't waste my energy.  I am no threat to your beliefs or lack of. You are not a threat to my faith because I know what it is.  It can't be threatened or harmed.

try explaining it.   A scientific hypothesis, by its definition, can be tested.  If you believe this god affects this universe, why can't it be shown to be real?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: jdawg70 on December 21, 2017, 03:42:51 PM
I am quite casual Screwtape. I don't take anything too serious these days. The world's a friggin' joke.  Always has been. 

I don't believe in vampires and the mole men and all that other stuff because of science. There is no evidence of such things.
Was there evidence of those things before 'because of science'?  Before assessing vampires and mole men 'through science'[1], would you have said there was evidence of those things?

Quote
It's probably the same reason why you don't believe in God. Unless I am mistaken.  The reason I believe in the one God goes much deeper than that and it would be difficult to explain to some people.  When a scientific hypothesis can't be tested then what would be the point of trying to explain it?
The point would be to try to ascertain why the hypothesis cannot be tested, and see if there is any insight to be gleaned from that.  Though there is the corollary:
When a hypothesis can't be tested, then on what basis do you consider it to be true?

Quote
It could never be proven in this dimension.  I could not anticipate or control or test the reaction of a being who possibly resides in a higher dimensional plane than our own.
Nor could you anticipate or control or test the reaction of a non-existence being.  How do you distinguish between real stuff that cannot, in principle, be tested and not real stuff that cannot, in principle, be tested?

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I accept the definition of the word "faith". Faith : Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.  I can't prove what is impossible to prove so I don't waste my energy.  I am no threat to your beliefs or lack of. You are not a threat to my faith because I know what it is.  It can't be threatened or harmed.
Distinguish 'spiritual apprehension' from 'claiming to understand that which I do not understand'.  That sounds smarmy, I know, but it is a genuine, earnest question.  Please take a crack at explaining how 'spiritual apprehension' is different from 'claiming to understand that which I do not understand'.

Furthermore, what informs that spiritual understanding?  When talking about non-spiritual understanding, presumably evidence is a part of what informs non-spiritual understanding, yes?  So if it isn't evidence that informs that spiritual understanding, what is it?

I'm going to put this here for you to think about while answering the above regarding evidence and understanding:

About that : I accept the definition of faith. The belief in something with no actual evidence. I believe in something even though it may not be true. I am good with it. I hope you all are.
I'm not sure I would say that I'm 'good' with believing something that may or may not be true.  I've accepted it certainly - it is very, very, very possible that some things that I accept as 'true' are, in fact, not true.  Sounds like you do is as well, but I am curious if you'd be able to expand on what you mean by being good with believing something that may not be true.

This old thread may be of interest to you, not really to revive it or anything, but it may help to calibrate you on how discussions regarding 'faith' can go around here:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,27596.29.html

I tend to believe that those who put forward the definition of 'faith' that you've put forward - belief in something with no actual evidence - and who embrace that faith fall into one of two categories:
1) You do not actually believe that, and there are situations where you will heavily lean on the word 'faith' to describe your relationship with your religion that have little to nothing to do with 'belief in something with no actual evidence'.  Often times this will be circumstances where 'faith' and 'trust' share many, many similarities.
2) You do actually believe that, and what it is you purport to have 'faith' in is so nebulous that discussions revolving around what you have 'faith' in read no different than a group exercise in writing fan fiction (i.e. if Leia had better control over the Force than Ben[2], she could reasonably defeat him in battle[3]).

I am sure there are more categories than that but those are the two that I generally see.  You may fall into one of those other categories.  You may defy categorization.  Don't know.

...
......

Is faith useful in distinguishing between what is true and what is not true?  Do you ever use faith to distinguish between what is true and what is not true?
 1. I'm not exactly clear on what 'because of science' means hence the scare quotes.
 2. If god could flood the entire world in 40 days...
 3. ...he could have caused a global flood to eliminate evil[1].
 1. Whether or not he succeeded in defeating evil is...subject to discussion.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: screwtape on December 21, 2017, 04:21:21 PM
I don't believe in vampires and the mole men and all that other stuff because of science. There is no evidence of such things. It's probably the same reason why you don't believe in God. Unless I am mistaken.

You are not mistaken.  The scientific method is how I sort the true from untrue.  At least, I try to.  You seem to say you do too, but you carve out a gaping exception for your religious beliefs.  Why?

You may think that works for you, but I don’t see how.  How do you decide which religious beliefs to accept and which to reject?

Quote
The reason I believe in the one God goes much deeper than that and it would be difficult to explain to some people. 

Give it a try.  I used to be religious.

Quote
When a scientific hypothesis can't be tested then what would be the point of trying to explain it?   

If it cannot be tested, its not a scientific hypothesis. It’s just a hypothesis.  And if you cannot test it, it is an irrelevant hypothesis.  If i said the entire universe is shrinking, including the instruments we use to measure it, so we cannot tell it’s shrinking, have I actually said anything relevant?  Not really.  Functionally, there is no difference between that idea being true or it being false.

Similarly, if some suggests a god exists who is completely undetectable, what difference does it make?  The universe behaves exactly the same way if that god exists or doesn’t.

Quote
It could never be proven in this dimension.  I could not anticipate or control or test the reaction of a being who possibly resides in a higher dimensional plane than our own.

Then the god you offer is functionally irrelevant. 

Quote
I accept the definition of the word "faith".

It is much more complicated than that.  I wrote an essay here on faith a while ago.  If I can find it, I will link it.

Quote
I am no threat to your beliefs or lack of. You are not a threat to my faith because I know what it is.  It can't be threatened or harmed.

I’m not worried about my protecting beliefs.  If a belief cannot stand on its own, I don’t want it. I am willing to change my mind if a better model (collection of beliefs) can be shown to be more accurate (has better predictive ability).  I want the most accurate beliefs.

What i am worried about are large groups of people destroying society or the planet - or just making life less good - because of the stupid things they believe by faith.


Edit: my old essay on faith
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,10690.msg240850.html#msg240850
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: shnozzola on December 21, 2017, 05:45:39 PM
a being who possibly resides in a higher dimensional plane than our own.

   That's the idea that I have a problem with.  Not the fact that there may be dimensions and existence I can't possibly understand - I get that.  But when you say "being", that too much limits the type of existence.  If you were to say, the energy (sans intelligence)  that exists at the quantum level and is indeed everywhere at the same time........OK, but that doesn't have an intelligent plan, or any need for a "faith", or a caring.  It is as simple as the basis of a molecule of H2O - so needs no adherence to, no worshipping, no faith.  It simply is.

   But to think there exists a being that demands allegiance, or else - sorry.  And that leads to the heart of the problem.  When human beings get all fired up about a belief that has no proof and confrontations lead to violence and murder, or ignoring science because that belief with no proof demands it, and legions march on and on and on, scorching the non agreeing - well, it makes a person want to safely, anonymously, debate what truth is known and acted upon, and what truth is guessed at and acted upon.  These days especially it seems necessary - a demanding need for debate.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Angel on August 03, 2018, 08:56:13 PM
Question: Are Abrahamic religions Hentotheist religions (not monotheist)?

Reason why they are; The OT talks about other gods and does not disallow them from being possible ... just not to be worshipped.  As such, the followers of the Abrahamic religions should acknowledge that other gods exist (if theirs does) and then state that they worship one even though that is the case.  (One or a pantheon of co-mingled gods depending on sect.)

This is correct. The writers of the Bible mentions many gods and goddesses. Some true and some false. The Hebrew word for god, El, and it's variations, means simply mighty and / or venerated. Jesus was prophetically referred to as a mighty god, (El Gibbohr Isaiah 9:6), the judges of Israel were called gods, (Elohim / Greek theoi este Latin dii estis Psalm 82:1,6 / John 10:34-35), Moses was made a God to Pharaoh by Jehovah God (Hebrew lelohim Greek theon Latin Deum Exodus 4:16; 7:1)

A god can be anyone or anything attributed might or venerated. Seems sort of silly to say that there are no gods, doesn't it?

Online Dictionary definition of gods

1. (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
2. (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.
B) an image, idol, animal, or other object worshiped as divine or symbolizing a god.
c) used as a conventional personification of fate.
3. an adored, admired, or influential person.
B) a thing accorded the supreme importance appropriate to a god.
4. the gallery in a theater, or the people seated there.

As Paul said, even ones own belly could be a god. (Romans 16:18 / Philippians 3:18-19) 
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: shnozzola on August 03, 2018, 09:32:44 PM
Here's a pretty thorough list of who we have been worshiping over the years:   :)  Just the A - Ak's for now, (its about 35 pages of deities) - the SM program won't allow more characters in a post.  I'll keep looking for the link.


A   Babylon/ Chaldea   A moon goddess
A'as   Hittite/ Hurrian   The god of wisdom
A'ra   W. Arabia   A local god
A-a   Mespoptomia/ Babylon/ Akkadia/ W. Semitic   She was a sun goddess
Aa Maakhuer   Egypt   A lion god of truthful speech
Aabit   Egypt   A goddess of song
Aaghu Gugu   Cherokee   A goddess of the of the dawn
Aah   Egypt   The moon god of Memphis.
Aahmes Nefertari   Egypt   A protector/ punisher of humans elevated to goddesshood
Aakuluujjusi   Inuit   The great creator mother
Aasith   Egypt/ Syria   A goddess of the hunt, war, and the desert
Aataentsic   Iroquois   A goddess
Aatxe   Basque   An evil spirit capable of assuming human form
Ab Kin Xoc   Maya   A god of war
Aba khatun   Baikal/ Siberia   A sea goddess
Abaangui   Guarani   A god whose huge nose became the moon
Abaasy   Yakut/ Siberia   Netherworld beings
Abaddon   Hebrew/ Christian   The chief of the demons of the 7th hierarchy
Abandinus   Roman/ Celtic/ British   A god known only by inscription
Abarta   Irish   A god of the Tuatha De Danann
Abassi   Efik   Creator of the world
Abat[t]ur   Mandaeans   It weighs souls &/ or their deeds
Abeguwo   Melanesia/ New Guinea   A rain goddess
Abello/ Abellio   Gaul   A god of apple trees
Abeona   Roman   She is the goddess guardian of children leaving home to go on their own
Abere   Melanesia   A goddess of Evil
Abgal   N. Arabia   A desert & tutelary god of the Bedouins
Abgal/ Apkallu   Sumeria   7 spirits that derived from the the Abzu
Abhijit   Hindu/ Puranic   A benevolent astral deity & goddess of fortune
Abhijnaraja   Buddhist/ Tibet   A physician god & medicine Buddha
Abhiyoga   Jain/ India   The generic name of the servile gods
Abira   Antioquia   The creator.
Abnona   Gaul   The goddess of the Black Forest
Abora   Palma Is./ Canary Is.   The supreme Being that sat in heaven & caused the stars to move
Abowie   Ghana   A goddess of healing & sterility
Abraxas/ Abrsax/ Abraxis   Greek/ Oriental   an occult theonym this god has the torso & arms of a man, head of a rooster & serpent legs
Abu   Sumeria   A god the of vegetation
Abuk   Dinka   Patron goddess of women & gardens
Abundantia/ Abundita   Roman   A goddess of agriculture & abundance
Abziu   Sumeria/ Mesopotamia   The primordial deity of underground water
Acala   India/ Buddhism   This god is protector of of the teaching & defends temples
Acat   Maya   A god of tattooists
Acaviser/ Lasas   Etruscan   A goddess, one of the fates
Acca   Roman   A goddess associated with Hercules
Acca Larentia   Etruscan/ Roman   An earth goddess & goddess of winter
Accasbel   Irish   Most likely was an early god of wine or mead
Acchupta   Jain/ India   A goddess of learning
Acco   Greek   A goddess of Evil
Achelois   Greek   A moon goddess
Achiyalatopa   Zuni   A celestial giant monster with feathers of flint knives
Achlae/ Aclelous/ Acleloos/ Achelous   Greek   A river god of some standing in the community
Achtland   Celtic   A goddess of sex & magic
Aclla   Inca/ Quechua   A goddesses of war & virgins
Acna/ Akna   Maya/ Mexico   A mother goddess
Acolmiztli   Aztec   A minor chthonic underworld god
Acolnahuacatl   Aztec   Another minor chthonic underworld god
Acoran   Gran Canary/ Canary Is.   The supreme Being who really really likes milk
Adad   Babylonian/ Mesopotamia   The god of wind, storm, flood & rain
Adam[m]as   Nassenes   The parental godhead of the gnostic movement
Adamanthea   Greek   A goddess of midwives
Adamisil Wedo   Haiti   A water goddess
Adaro   Polynesia/ Melanesia   A sea god
Addanc   Wales   Primordial giant/ god
Adekagagwaa   Iroquois   The spirit of summer who rests during the winter in the south
Adeona   Roman   A goddess of school children
Adeos   Roman   A goddess of modesty
Adhimukticarya   Buddhist/ Vajrayana   A minor goddess & deified Bhumis
Adibuddha   Buddhist   The primeval Buddha
Adidharma   Buddhist   A primordial goddess
Adikia   Greek   The goddess both injustice who is rather hard on the eyes
Adimurti   Hindu   An avatar of Vishnu
Aditi   Hindu   Hindu supreme creator of all that has been created
Adityas   Hindu   The divine sons of Aditi, Varuna Aditya, Indra, Mitra, Rudra, Tvashtar & Vishnu
Adonis   Greek   A god of nature
Adonis   Phoenicia/ Syria   A dying & resurrected god that embodies vegetation scorched by the heat of the summer sunshine
Adrammelech   Mideast   A god to whom infants were burnt in sacrifice [only reference to the practice in the christian OT]
Adrastea   Britain   the goddess of war
Adrasteia   Greek/ Thrace/ Trojan/ Phyragean   A mountain goddess that is the guardian of righteousness & avenges is all wrongs
Adro   Lugbara   An earthly god of & grass fires
Adroa   Africa   A god that is the an early version of Adro
Adsullata   Britain   A goddess of hot springs
Aea   Greek   A goddess of hunting
Aeacoc   Greek/ Roman   A chthonic underworld god & 1 of the 3 gods of Hades
Aebhel Afekan   Melanesia/ New Guinea   The creator goddess
Aebhel/ Aeval   Irish   A goddess who is a faery [interesting story]
Aed   Celtic/ Irish   An underworld god known only from inscription
Aedos   Roman   A goddess of modesty
Aega   Greek   A goddess of war
Aegeria   Roman   A goddess of prophecy invoked by pregnant women
Aegir   Germanic   A god of the ocean
Aengus   Celtic/ Irish   worshipped from about 500 BC/ 400 AD
Aeolos   Greek   He was the custodian of the four winds
Aequitas   .   A minor spirit of fair dealing from 300 BCE
Aericura   Celtic/ Roman   An underworld god known only from inscription
Aerten/ Aerfen/ Aeron   Wales/ Cornish   A goddess of fate
Aesculapius/ Asklepios   Greek/ Roman   A god of healing & of medicine
Aesir   Norse/ Germanic   The pantheon of the gods
Aesma Daeva   Persia   A demon of lust & anger that is ticked at the cow
Aestas   Roman   A goddess of summer usually portrayed nude & adorned with garlands of grain
Aesun   Irish   A god whose name means to be
Aether   Greek   The god representing pure air & light
Aetna   Roman   A mountain goddess
Aeval   Celtic   A goddess of sexual relations & small size
Afekan   Melanesia/ New Guinea   The creator goddess
Afi   Abkhaz   A god of rain & thunderstorms that does not tolerate women using his name
Afreet   Arabia   They are unclean spirits
Ag'o   Dahomean   Worshipped by hunters
Agaman Nibo   Haiti   A goddess of the dead
Agamede   Greek   A goddess of healing
Agas   Iran   A demon of illness, especially the eyes
Agasaya   Semitic   A war goddess
Agathos Daimon   Greek   A good genius/ guardian spirit
Age Fon   Benin/ W. Africa   Revered by hunters he is the god of animals
Agischanak   Tlingit/ Alaska   A goddess of the earth
Aglaia   Greek   The youngest of the three graces
Aglibol   Palmaryia/ Syria/ Greek/ Roman   The moon god
Agni   Hindu/ Vedic   A god of fire & guardian of homes
Agni   India   A god of lightning, fire, & the sun & who also mediates between the gods & humans
Agnikumara   Jain/ India   They are youthful appearing gods associated with rain & thunder
Agnostos Theos   Greek   The unknown gods that were always worshipped as a group
Agrona   Wales   A slaughter goddess
Agrotera   Greek   A goddess of good health & hunting
Agu'gux   Aleut[USA]   The creator god that was claimed to be the Christian god under Russian Orthodox priests
Aguara   Tunpa/ Chiriguano   The fox god who gave the carob tree to the people
Agwe   Benin/ Africa   She is the mother of the sea
Agwe   Haiti/ Vodun   A goddess manifestation of Yemanja
Agwe   Vodun   A god of the ocean
Agweta   Haiti   A sea goddess
Ah Bolom Tzacab   Maya   A god of agriculture who controlled rain & thunder
Ah Bolon Dz'acab   Maya   A fertility god associated with rain & thunder
Ah Can Cum/ Acaum   Maya   A hunter & protector of the animals god
Ah Chun Caan   Mexico   be deity though of the city of Merida
Ah Chuy Kak   Maya   A god of war
Ah Ciliz   Maya   The god of solar eclipses
Ah Cun Can   Maya   A god of war
Ah Hulneb   Maya   A god of war
Ah Kin   Maya   The sun god who brings drought but protects man from the powers of evil associated with darkness
Ah Kin Xoc   Maya   A god of poetry, a singer & musician
Ah Kinchil   Maya   A god of war & the sun
Ah Kumix Unicob   Maya   These are small attendant water gods
Ah Mun   Maya   The god responsible for protecting the green maize
Ah Muzecab   Maya   The bee gods
Ah Patnar Uinicob   Maya   They are large water gods
Ah Peku   Maya   A thunder god that lives on the tops of hills
Ah Puch   Maya   He is the god of death
Ah Tabai   Maya   A hunting god
Ah Uaynih   Guatemala   A goddess of sleep, specifically males
Ah Unicir Dz'acab   Maya   A god of healing
Ah Uuc Ticab   Maya   A minor vegetation & fertility god
Ah Wink ir Masa   Guatemala   A nature goddess
Aha   Yakut/ Siberia   A river spirit, female type
Ahat   Egypt   A cow goddess
Ahau Chamahez   Maya   He is one of two gods of medicine
Ahau Kin   Maya   A goddess of war
Ahemait   Egypt   An underworld goddess who eats the souls of the unworthy
Aheramenmthoou   Egypt   The god of thunder, night, storms, wind, landslides & tidal waves
Ahmakiq   Maya   He is a god of agriculture
Ahnt Alis Pok'   Mexico region   A very small goddess - 2 feet high
Ahnt kai   Mexico Region   A goddess of women & children
Ahone   Virginia/ USA   The supreme deity who was indifferent to worship
Ahriman   Zoroastrianism   The supreme evil spirit & lord of the darkness and death
Ahsonnutli   Navaho   Chief god
Ahti   Egyptian   A goddess of evil
Ahti (or Ahto)   Finland   God of the depths, giver of fish.
Ahuic   Aztec/ Mexico   A goddess of all running water
Ahulane   Maya   A god of war
Ahura Mazda   Persia   The supreme god
Ahurani   Persia   The goddess of rain and water
Ai Ada   Turkey?   The moon god
Ai Apec Mochica   Peru   The supreme god that rules the destinies of the world
Ai Tojon   Yakut/ Siberia   A god that created all light
Ai Tupua'i   Polynesia   A goddess of healing & of war
Aiakos   Greek   A god of the underworld
Aialila'axa   Mexico region   A moon goddess
Aiaru   Polynesia   Her function is to predict death
Aibell   Irish   A goddess of Munster
Aibheaeg   Irish   A goddess of fire & of toothaches
Aibheaog   Irish   A fire goddess
Aida Wedo   Benin/ Haiti   A goddess of the rainbow & fresh water Aida Cuedo, Aido Wedo, Ayida, Ayida Cueddo
Aidin   Celtic   A goddess of love & sexuality
Aido Wedo   Haiti   A goddess of fire
Aife/ Aoife   Irish/ Scotland   A goddess & queen of the Isle of shadow
Aige   Irish   A goddess of water & bays
Aijo   Estonia   A goddess of evil
Ailsie   Cherokee   A goddess of water & pools
Aimend   Irish/ Scotland   A sun goddess
Ain/ Aine   Irish   A goddess of war, of fertility, love & of Midsummer Lair Derg
Aine of Knockaine   Irish   A moon goddess who was connected with the Summer Solstice
Aino   Finnish   A goddess of justice
Aiolos/ Aelus   Latin/ Greek   The ruler of the winds
Airmid   Irish   A goddess of all healing arts & witchcraft
Airsekui   Huron   The great spirit
Airyaman   Persia   A god of social bonds, contracts, & marriage who at the end of time will fish souls of the the temporarily damned called a Hell by using a net
Aisha   Arabic   A goddess of water
Aisha Qandisha   Morocco   A goddess of sexual activity
Aittsamka   Bella Coola   A goddess of teaching
Aitu   Samoa   the lower order of the gods
Aitvaras   Prussia   the The brave & loving demon that will bring good fortune to your home when well fed & treated kindly
Aius Locutius   Roman   A god supposed to have given warning of the approach of the Gauls 391 B.C.
Aizen-Myoo   Buddhism   A deity who is full of compassion for mankind
Aizen-Myoo   Japan   The god of tavern keepers, musicians, singers, prostitutes & love
Aja   Babylonian   The dawn goddess
Aja   Yoruba   A goddess of healing, herbs & of knowledge
Ajalamo   Yoruba/ Nigeria/ W. Africa   A god of fetuses
Ajatar   Finnish   A goddess of evil
Ajatar (sometimes Ajattara)   Finland   An evil forest spirit.
Ajaya   Buddhist/ Mahayanna   A minor goddess
Ajbit   Maya   A god that helped create people [13 were involved]
Aje   Yoruba   A goddess of wealth in all its forms
Aji Suki Taka Hi Kone   Japan   A god of thunder
Ajok   Louko   Chief god
Ajtzak   Maya   Another god that helped create people
Ajysyt   Yakut/ Siberia   A goddess of healing & birth
Aka   Turkey   The mother goddess
Akasagarbha   India/ Buddhism   A Bodhisattva & the personification of supreme knowledge of the absolute void
Akelos   Greek   A river god
Aken   Egypt   An underworld god & keeper of the underworld ferryboat
Aker   Egypt   A god of the earth that guards in the entrance to the underworld
Akerbeltz   Basque   An avatar of the god Mari
Akerbeltz   Basque   An avatar of the god Mari
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: shnozzola on August 03, 2018, 09:45:12 PM
Also, here is the tree.

Everyone should be able to find their one true religion.

(https://img.scoop.it/ib_UZXFDj9cn45T3CV9nroXXXL4j3HpexhjNOf_P3YmryPKwJ94QGRtDb3Sbc6KY)

http://www.the40foundation.org/world-religions-tree.html
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: albeto on August 04, 2018, 11:35:54 AM
This is correct. The writers of the Bible mentions many gods and goddesses. Some true and some false.

How does one confirm which god is true?

The Hebrew word for god, El, and it's variations, means simply mighty and / or venerated. Jesus was prophetically referred to as a mighty god, (El Gibbohr Isaiah 9:6), the judges of Israel were called gods, (Elohim / Greek theoi este Latin dii estis Psalm 82:1,6 / John 10:34-35), Moses was made a God to Pharaoh by Jehovah God (Hebrew lelohim Greek theon Latin Deum Exodus 4:16; 7:1)

Interesting interpretation. So "god" just means mighty? Are dinosaurs gods? Olympic champions? My mom?

A god can be anyone or anything attributed might or venerated. Seems sort of silly to say that there are no gods, doesn't it?

So then "god" isn't a thing, it's a modifier of a thing.

Online Dictionary definition of gods

1. (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.

My mom didn't do that.

2. (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.
B) an image, idol, animal, or other object worshiped as divine or symbolizing a god.
c) used as a conventional personification of fate.
3. an adored, admired, or influential person.
B) a thing accorded the supreme importance appropriate to a god.
4. the gallery in a theater, or the people seated there.

Generally, we have discussions here with people who refer to God in the biblical sense, Yahweh morphed into the Trinity. Most people don't refer to God as an image, or an idol, or an animal, or an influential person, just the character from the Western bible

As Paul said, even ones own belly could be a god. (Romans 16:18 / Philippians 3:18-19)

For reference:

Romans 16:18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.

Philippians 3:18-19  For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things.

I think you misunderstand "appetites" in the first one, but the point is taken. Interesting how the gods in Moses' day weren't stomachs but understood to be active deities with powers more or less equal to Yahweh. I think this is a great illustration of the evolution of the religion from a polytheistic one to a monotheistic one. The very gods that were threats to Yahweh and his followers eventually were relegated to allegories. This is typical in religion. As secular information and ethics replace religious declarations and morals, the old declarations are demoted to allegories and the old morals are locked up in time, not to be considered appropriate any more.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: clip11 on August 04, 2018, 12:31:18 PM
I am a God!!! 8)
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Nick on August 04, 2018, 12:46:07 PM
Praise Clip.  I would like a pony.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Angel on August 04, 2018, 02:55:59 PM
How does one confirm which god is true?

Well, true could be a subjective term when it comes to a possibly abstract concept like god. To a man who stumbles across the cold plains a pile of dried bovine excrement could be his god, supplying fire for protection, light, warmth, not to mention the creeping things that lie beneath that could be eaten. To someone else it may just be some bullshit.

I've studied the brief histories of the major religions, Buddhism, Christianity, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Shintoism and Taoism. I've read many of the sacred texts. The Dhammapada, Four Noble Truths, Gospel Of Buddha, The Bible, Analects of Confusius, Mencius, Baghavad Gita, Quran, Pirqe Aboth, Nihongi, Kojiki, Tao Te Ching and Chuang Tzu. Most of them don't have anything to say about God, and other than the Abrahamic religions there are no substantial claims of creation. (see my website for further, but brief examination). 

The true God is the one above all the others who proves to you his promise etc is true. If you want to be a part of that promise, then follow, but if not, then forget about it. Acts 24:15 says there will be a resurrection of the unrighteous as well as the righteous. What does that mean? Romans 6:7 says that he has died has been acquitted of his sin, so he can't be punished forever in hell. These two scriptures mean that those who have not had the opportunity to be introduced to the true God will have the opportunity to choose between the true God once they are told of him, and those who choose to reject god simply are asleep in death. 

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Interesting interpretation. So "god" just means mighty? Are dinosaurs gods? Olympic champions? My mom?

Yep. Eric Clapton is a god. Frodo Baggins is a god. Real or imagined. Human or supernatural. Quixotic or mundane.

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So then "god" isn't a thing, it's a modifier of a thing.

Grammatically? Use modifier in a sentence. A god is a person or thing. Uh . . . I don't believe in Zeus. I don't worship Zeus. Zeus doesn't exist. Zeus is a god. 



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My mom didn't do that.

Generally, we have discussions here with people who refer to God in the biblical sense, Yahweh morphed into the Trinity. Most people don't refer to God as an image, or an idol, or an animal, or an influential person, just the character from the Western bible.

Well, there's some confusion due primarily from the Masoretic scribes having removed the personal name of God and replaced it with the generic term LORD, stylized with all upper case. So most people think saying goddamn is using God's name in vain. It isn't. God isn't a name it's a title. Like Lord, which means someone with authority, usually but not always granted by another. Landlord.  There was a time when the name Jehovah was being used for a common name and misapplied in ways like that. That is using God's name in vain. the scribes began removing the name to prevent the common people from abusing it. It was a wrong move. The name is very important.

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For reference:

Romans 16:18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.

Philippians 3:18-19  For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things.

I think you misunderstand "appetites" in the first one, but the point is taken. Interesting how the gods in Moses' day weren't stomachs but understood to be active deities with powers more or less equal to Yahweh. I think this is a great illustration of the evolution of the religion from a polytheistic one to a monotheistic one. The very gods that were threats to Yahweh and his followers eventually were relegated to allegories. This is typical in religion. As secular information and ethics replace religious declarations and morals, the old declarations are demoted to allegories and the old morals are locked up in time, not to be considered appropriate any more.

Well,  I doubt it. Most of those types of suppositions are based on the premise that it's all a fairy tale. If the skeptic broadened their approach while maintaining integrity they would perhaps examine the hypothetical proposition that the alleged texts were real the type of supposition you are making becomes less plausible.

An example of this is a sort of scientific approach to the book of Revelation. Science might tend to try and explain it by assuming it was written by a superstitious and ignorant people afraid of eclipses and asteroids, when in fact it is symbolic for political and social upheaval similar to the prophets of old who used the same symbolism to describe the political and social upheaval of Jerusalem in their time which was just on a smaller scale than Revelation.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Angel on August 04, 2018, 02:57:10 PM
I am a God!!! 8)

A self proclaimed God? Okay. Fair enough.
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: albeto on August 04, 2018, 03:11:15 PM
Well, true could be a subjective term when it comes to a possibly abstract concept like god. To a man who stumbles across the cold plains a pile of dried bovine excrement could be his god, supplying fire for protection, light, warmth, not to mention the creeping things that lie beneath that could be eaten. To someone else it may just be some bullshit.

I've studied the brief histories of the major religions, Buddhism, Christianity, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Shintoism and Taoism. I've read many of the sacred texts. The Dhammapada, Four Noble Truths, Gospel Of Buddha, The Bible, Analects of Confusius, Mencius, Baghavad Gita, Quran, Pirqe Aboth, Nihongi, Kojiki, Tao Te Ching and Chuang Tzu. Most of them don't have anything to say about God, and other than the Abrahamic religions there are no substantial claims of creation. (see my website for further, but brief examination). 

The true God is the one above all the others who proves to you his promise etc is true. If you want to be a part of that promise, then follow, but if not, then forget about it. Acts 24:15 says there will be a resurrection of the unrighteous as well as the righteous. What does that mean? Romans 6:7 says that he has died has been acquitted of his sin, so he can't be punished forever in hell. These two scriptures mean that those who have not had the opportunity to be introduced to the true God will have the opportunity to choose between the true God once they are told of him, and those who choose to reject god simply are asleep in death. 

In all this, you avoided answering my question.
 
Well,  I doubt it. Most of those types of suppositions are based on the premise that it's all a fairy tale. If the skeptic broadened their approach while maintaining integrity they would perhaps examine the hypothetical proposition that the alleged texts were real the type of supposition you are making becomes less plausible.

What?
Title: Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
Post by: Angel on August 04, 2018, 08:49:19 PM
In all this, you avoided answering my question.


How do you confirm your insurance agent as true?
 
Well,  I doubt it. Most of those types of suppositions are based on the premise that it's all a fairy tale. If the skeptic broadened their approach while maintaining integrity they would perhaps examine the hypothetical proposition that the alleged texts were real the type of supposition you are making becomes less plausible.

Quote
What?

Most of the secular explanations for the reasoning behind making of the creation gods don't make a great deal of sense. They don't add up. They are simply failed logical approaches stemming from a gross underestimation of primitive people.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: albeto on August 04, 2018, 09:18:31 PM
^^^ I feel like you're trying to sound deep or spiritual or something, but I'm afraid it's going over my head. I ask how one might confirm a given god in the bible is a true god ("insurance agent"?) and you reply one should "broadened their approach while maintaining integrity." Can you be more specific? What approach should be broadened here? For example, if you were to write instructions for an objective third party to put this to the test, what might those instructions look like?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Angel on August 04, 2018, 09:42:41 PM
^^^ I feel like you're trying to sound deep or spiritual or something, but I'm afraid it's going over my head. I ask how one might confirm a given god in the bible is a true god ("insurance agent"?) and you reply one should "broadened their approach while maintaining integrity." Can you be more specific? What approach should be broadened here? For example, if you were to write instructions for an objective third party to put this to the test, what might those instructions look like?

An insurance agent is deep and spiritual? What is a true God. One that is true. In order to confirm this examine the Bible with an open mind. Ok, I take it you were a former Christian. That doesn't necessarily mean much. You probably were taught bad people go to hell. Jesus died on a cross. The soul either goes to heaven or hell forever. Silly nonsense like that. First, you have to get past all of that, I would think. As an skeptic you probably think that the Bible says the earth is flat, the universe was created in 6 literal days. Silly nonsense like that. You have to get rid of that. IF they are in fact silliness. But that's just clearing your head of nonsensical preconceptions. What other obstacles might be in your way? The supernatural. Then you can move on to establishing whether or not there is any truth to Jehovah God. Much the same as you would establish the true or false nature of an insurance agent. If He promises does he deliver? Does he lie? Can he deliver what he promises? 

And just because Jehovah God comes out looking like a true God in your eyes doesn't mean that you approve of him or want to be a part of what he promises. It may be that you don't. You are under no obligation upon discovering his true existence.   
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: albeto on August 04, 2018, 10:13:19 PM
An insurance agent is deep and spiritual?

You say insurance agent, and I think Geico. We're not connecting. Can you be more concrete for me?

What is a true God.

I don't know. That's the point of this line of inquiry. Upthread you gave a lot of silly, or were they supposed to be profound, answers. None of them answered the question for anyone but you. But I'm not you. If you wish for me to understand, you'll have to appeal to information I can relate to. I cannot read your mind, feel your thoughts, and bask in your faith. Try to be specific, if you can.

One that is true.

Circular reasoning, and pretty much on the level of SpongeBob philosophy. I mean, come on. Throw me a bone here.

In order to confirm this examine the Bible with an open mind. Ok, I take it you were a former Christian. That doesn't necessarily mean much. You probably were taught bad people go to hell. Jesus died on a cross. The soul either goes to heaven or hell forever. Silly nonsense like that. First, you have to get past all of that, I would think. As an skeptic you probably think that the Bible says the earth is flat, the universe was created in 6 literal days. Silly nonsense like that. You have to get rid of that. IF they are in fact silliness. But that's just clearing your head of nonsensical preconceptions.

Fair enough. I'm thinking of an objective observer, someone without any stake in this concept, one who is simply looking for information. I can absolutely suppress what I might have been taught or learned, even academically. Let's get to the bottom of this.

What other obstacles might be in your way? The supernatural. Then you can move on to establishing whether or not there is any truth to Jehovah God.

I understand you to suggest first I have to accept the existence of the supernatural, and then can I determine if Jehovah God is the most likely explanation.

Much the same as you would establish the true or false nature of an insurance agent. If He promises does he deliver? Does he lie? Can he deliver what he promises? 

Okay, you mean insurance agent like some kind of spiritual being? Is this a euphemism for a god? For Jehovah God specifically?

And just because Jehovah God comes out looking like a true God in your eyes doesn't mean that you approve of him or want to be a part of what he promises. It may be that you don't. You are under no obligation upon discovering his true existence.   

Fair enough. It sounds to me as if your methodology, terribly simplified is this:

Read founding documents of Xian religion.
Study said documents (history, interpretation, culture, analysis, what other's have suggested, etc etc).
Pray.
Analyze events.

More or less, is this about right?

Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Angel on August 04, 2018, 11:16:48 PM
You say insurance agent, and I think Geico. We're not connecting. Can you be more concrete for me?

Are you trying to fuck with me?! Or are you greatly over thinking? To determine if a God is true or false is much the same as trying to determine if anything is true or false. It either is true or false to it's claims.

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I don't know. That's the point of this line of inquiry. Upthread you gave a lot of silly, or were they supposed to be profound, answers. None of them answered the question for anyone but you. But I'm not you. If you wish for me to understand, you'll have to appeal to information I can relate to. I cannot read your mind, feel your thoughts, and bask in your faith. Try to be specific, if you can.

I don't know how much much more specific I can be. Either Jehovah God is true to his word, able and willing to deliver on his promises, and has demonstrated this trustworthiness in the past or he has proved false to it.

One that is true.

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Circular reasoning, and pretty much on the level of SpongeBob philosophy. I mean, come on. Throw me a bone here.


Well, that's alright, I ain't proud. If Spongebob works then Spongebob will do the trick.

Quote
Fair enough. I'm thinking of an objective observer, someone without any stake in this concept, one who is simply looking for information. I can absolutely suppress what I might have been taught or learned, even academically. Let's get to the bottom of this.

You are the objective observer. The skeptic. Though you won't find anyone without a stake in this concept, you can be simply looking for information at this point. You don't necessarily need to suppress what you have learned, just be open to the possibility that it wasn't accurate. Or maybe it was, I don't know.

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I understand you to suggest first I have to accept the existence of the supernatural, and then can I determine if Jehovah God is the most likely explanation.

No. I don't think you have to accept the supernatural right away, but rather eventually you will have to come to grips with what it means to be supernatural and take an objective look at the possibility. This might be contrary to your academic pursuit of a truth that can't possibly be tested by scientific means. Like most things can't be.

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Okay, you mean insurance agent like some kind of spiritual being? Is this a euphemism for a god? For Jehovah God specifically?

Now I know you are messing with me.

Quote
Fair enough. It sounds to me as if your methodology, terribly simplified is this:

Read founding documents of Xian religion.
Study said documents (history, interpretation, culture, analysis, what other's have suggested, etc etc).
Pray.
Analyze events.

More or less, is this about right?

Well, I suppose. If that works for you. Don't over complicate it. What would you expect to find in reading founding documents of the Christian religion? What are those documents, the Bible? How reliable are history, interpretation, culture, analysis and commentary? All of those things are subjective, imperfect, subject to error. Do you have to be absolutely certain and possess 100% accurate knowledge, which would be unreasonable in just about any search for truth.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: albeto on August 05, 2018, 10:50:34 AM
Are you trying to fuck with me?!

Lighten up, Francis.

It either is true or false to it's claims.

Makes much more sense than, "What is a true God. One that is true." That was a meaningless sentiment I suspect you thought would sound deep or profound. This answer is unambiguous, so thank you.

I don't know how much much more specific I can be. Either Jehovah God is true to his word, able and willing to deliver on his promises, and has demonstrated this trustworthiness in the past or he has proved false to it.

This is helpful. If we are looking at an entity that is "true to his word, able and willing to deliver on his promises, and has demonstrated this trustworthiness," then it's simple. Thus far no evidence to support this has ever been found.

No. I don't think you have to accept the supernatural right away, but rather eventually you will have to come to grips with what it means to be supernatural and take an objective look at the possibility.

So what does it mean to be supernatural? How would one who is limited to the natural realm explore and study what is supernatural? All our instruments to observe and measure effects would observe and measure natural phenomenon, so in what way would the supernatural be isolated and identified?

When a natural explanation suffices, would one still look at the possibility of a supernatural component? Can you share an example of a phenomenon for which a natural explanation does not work but a supernatural one might? It would have to be more than prayer, guidance, or comfort, which have all been explained through natural means.

This might be contrary to your academic pursuit of a truth that can't possibly be tested by scientific means. Like most things can't be.

If this entity made claims, they should be identifiable, as should testing them through scientific means. Using scientific means only means relying on an objective methodology. There's no trickery there.

Well, I suppose. If that works for you. Don't over complicate it.

It's as simple as I can make it. Let me ask you this, why do you think this process is unreliable in general for the Xian faith, much less for other religions? How would you confirm your conclusions to be right?

What would you expect to find in reading founding documents of the Christian religion?

I suppose the claims you were talking about for starters - Jehovah God's word, his promises, what he's supposed to have accomplished.

Do you have to be absolutely certain and possess 100% accurate knowledge

No.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Emma286 on August 05, 2018, 11:12:58 AM
Is Angel Francis from IGI?
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: albeto on August 05, 2018, 11:23:15 AM
Is Angel Francis from IGI?

No, sorry, it's a reference from the movie Stripes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OnpkDWbeJs). In his introduction, Angel reminded me of Francis a bit when he said,

I try to get along with everybody, and listen to what you have to say. I may disagree with you but there's no reason we can't get along, unless you just want to be an asshole, in which case I may or may not be in the mood to humor you.

Introducing oneself as a tough guy always reminds me of Francis. I mean, good grief, we're just talking.
Title: Re: What is your religious position?
Post by: Emma286 on August 05, 2018, 12:12:33 PM
Ah, understood!