whywontgodhealamputees.com

Main Discussion Zone => Why Won't God Heal Amputees? => Topic started by: LonestarGrandad on June 11, 2009, 08:23:28 PM

Title: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on June 11, 2009, 08:23:28 PM
Who I Am:  
A 43 year old man who has been on an intellectual journey that has culminated in my arrival as a Rational Person

Who I used to be:  
A true believer in the one true God.  A Christian who grew up believing everything I read in God's Holy Word.  A minister and preacher who gave his first sermon at the age of 14.  A fierce believer in the power of prayer and laying on of hands.  A practitioner of the "gifts of the Spirit" and a believer in others who possessed these "gifts of the Spirit."  I was happy, my life had purpose, God had a plan for me and I knew that He loved me because I had a personal relationship with Him through his Only Son, Jesus Christ.

The last in a long series of epiphanies that finally opened my eyes.  
As a teenager, I developed a severe allergy.  Spontaneously, and with no warning, I would break out in great patches of hives all over my body.  My eyes would swell shut, my hands would swell up, my face would swell and contort, my lips would grow to 3 times their normal size, and all of this at a moment's notice.  I may be in the middle of high school, or in the middle of church, or on a date, or with friends.  I never knew when it was going to happen and it practically ruined my teenage years.  Most teenagers only have to worry about acne.  I had to worry about suddenly turning into the elephant man.

Since I believed the Bible, I believed in the power of prayer.  Countless people prayed for me all over the state of Texas.  Faith healers layed hands on me and sent me prayer cloths.  Prophets prophesied that God was going to do something glorious through all of this.  People who had the "gift of knowledge" spoke a "word of knowledge" over me how God had great plans for me and a great ministry.  For years I prayed and believed.  God hadn't said "yes", and no one had said He said "no" so He must be answering "wait."  So I prayed, believed, and waited.

In the meantime, I grew older, got married, dealt with outbreaks, and took benedryl.  For years, different people would pray for me or offer the latest “word of knowledge” from God.  For years, I believed and waited.  But slowly the questions began to infiltrate my faith.  Slowly, rational thought began to replace faith.  In all aspects of my religious experience I began to ask questions I never allowed myself to ask.  Then one day, a doctor stumbled upon the answer to my physical and spiritual battles.

I had gone to see another allergy specialist ( an earlier doctor had not been able to isolate my particular allergen) to try to get some relief from this near debilitating phenomenon.  He ran all the prick tests and nothing was conclusive.  As I was leaving, almost as an afterthought, he said I might be allergic to aspirin.  The only way to tell was to not take it for six months and then take it one time and see if I had a reaction.  I waited the six months, and then I popped two pills.  The reaction was almost instantaneous!  

Bingo!  I was allergic to aspirin.  Since that day, I have not taken aspirin and my life has completely changed.  

As I reached middle age, I began to realize that I never needed a miracle.  I didn't need God to change my DNA or cure some problem within, or change my chemical makeup.  I didn't need God to give me eyesight, or cleanse leprosy, or regenerate a missing limb. All this lonely teenager needed was his loving God to tell one of his Servants to give him a simple word:  “Don't take aspirin.”

This loving God could have totally changed my life with those three words.  He didn't need to walk on water to get my attention.  All He needed to do was give me a dream, speak in my ear, tell somebody else.  But just get those three words to me.  But He didn't.  

This final revelation (among many others) brought me to a crossroads in my life.  I had two choices.  Either God hates me or He is imaginary.  Since I am too much fun for anyone to hate, the answer became crystal clear to me for the first time in my life:  God  must be imaginary.  

If He really existed and loved me, He could have shown me with the tiniest of gestures.  I didn't need a miracle, just a moment.  I never got either and now that I am viewing life through rational eyes I see why.  Not only am I free from all the questions, I am also free from the burden that there might be something wrong with me that would keep a loving God from throwing me a crumb.

 I am not a Christian, I am not a sinner, I am not a rebel, I am not an atheist.  I am a rational person.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Emily on June 11, 2009, 08:33:11 PM
Thanks for the story, and welcome to the boards.

As I was reading it I got to thinking about what doctors are able to do. You should read this post;
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=6994.0 (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=6994.0)

Itactually links to an outside source. It shows where god has failed, and where doctors should get all the credit. (Unfortunately, even in medicine God gets the glory)

Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: deconvertedone on June 11, 2009, 08:47:02 PM
Very interesting story and I enjoyed reading it.  Congratulations on your "seeing the light" and welcome to the forum.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: none on June 11, 2009, 08:48:50 PM
LonestarGrandad, hello.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on June 11, 2009, 08:56:23 PM
Thanks for the welcome everyone.  Being Rational feels a little precarious but also liberating.  Thanks for the link above.  Miracles do happen, they just involve good people.  Flesh and blood people.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: kin hell on June 11, 2009, 09:58:53 PM
Welcome LoneStarGrandad

Great story, nightmare ride for anyone, glad you got a doctor with expansive thinking, even better the "great deceiver realisation" .


Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Mar on June 11, 2009, 10:28:35 PM
LonestarGrandad, thanks for sharing your story. :D
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: none on June 11, 2009, 10:33:26 PM
LonestarGrandad, it is rare that I meet someone who proclaims to be rational and truly is.
only a self identified narcissist can truly be narcissistic regardless of any label given by others.
check some of my topics PLEASE.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on June 11, 2009, 11:06:12 PM
Imagine my utter consternation at disappointing you with my claim of rationality.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: none on June 11, 2009, 11:08:46 PM
thus, I am none.
hello?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: William on June 12, 2009, 07:03:06 AM
A fierce believer in the power of prayer and laying on of hands.  

Hi LonestarGrandad, your story is fascinating and I'm glad you discovered you allergen and, more importantly, escaped from mental bondage.

Maybe it's too early to get into serious questions.  But what the heck - your qualifications are perfect.  

For some reason I always doubted miracles even when I was a Christian.  I observed some "miracles" being performed and thought they were just claims - not demonstrated fact - but the door to belief was still slightly ajar.  Then one time I actually saw a clear fake trick performed (leg growing by two inches) in front of a large audience. The deceit of it was staggering to me - I was gobsmacked - but dozens of people around me went waving their arms in the air down to the front to "give" themselves to Jesus.  

So it puzzles me how people involved in the performance of miracles view them and believe in them.  
What did you see, at that time, in the "power of prayer and laying on of hands"?
What do you think of that type of thing when you see it now?

Thanks
William
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on June 12, 2009, 11:15:29 AM
Quote
A fierce believer in the power of prayer and laying on of hands. 

When I say I was a fierce believer, I mean that I simply believed without question.  The Bible said it, I believed that the Bible was the Word of God, so it must be true.  If Jesus said that I could lay hands on the sick and they would recover, I simply believed it to be so.  So I prayed for people.  I was totally sincere.  I fully expected God to answer prayer.  And I believed that He had.

I knew that there were fake ministers out there.  I saw W.V. Grant pull that same trick (the growing leg) at a packed church in Dallas, Texas. 

But I was different from the charlatans and fakes that used God's word to get rich because I truly believed what I was saying.  To me it wasn't a sham or trick.  God said it, I believed it, no matter what the evidence showed.  And there were times when we truly believed that God had worked a miracle.  (little things like headaches going away, someone getting a job, depression leaving, family conflicts solved, etc.)  Looking back on it now I can see that these were merely coincidences, or natural occurrences, or we were simply seeing what we wanted to see, but they happened just enough to keep us believing – just enough to keep the delusion alive.

My wife and I wear glasses, always have.  One time she wanted prayer for her eyesight because Jesus said if 2 or 3 of us agreed and believed, it would be done.  Since we were believers, we believed.  So we prayed for her and she truly believed that God had “touched” her.  Her eyesight may not be perfect without her glasses but God was going to complete the job.  Why wouldn't he?  He loved us and said He would answer our prayers.  So she decided to stand on her faith and trust God.  She claimed her healing and believed it was so.  She stopped wearing glasses.  And for months it seemed that God was a man of His word.  It was all true, “Ask believing and you shall receive.”  What a miracle!  God had healed my wife's eyesight!  (By the way, it truly would have been a miracle, she is legally blind in one eye and has it pretty bad in the other.)

Then one day she got pulled over by a cop because her inspection sticker was out.  The cop noticed that she had a vision restriction on her license.  So he asked her why she wasn't wearing her glasses.  She didn't even hesitate to tell the policeman that God had healed her eyes.  So the good officer told her to read a sign across the street.  My wife couldn't read it.  She ended up calling someone to come get her because the policeman wouldn't let her drive away.  You would think that this would crush a believer and show them that God doesn't answer prayer.  But it wasn't God's fault, my wife believed that she just didn't have enough faith.  She would need to pray more, fast more, read more, get closer to God.  And this is how the delusion continues.

But you can only delude yourself for so long, or so you think.  It is amazing how long you can go making excuses for God.  And the reason you do it is because you want, so badly, to believe that there is a God up there that loves you and that will take care of you and that will answer your prayers.  Your need to believe this is so great that you will make every excuse under the sun for why He hasn't answered your prayer.  Not believing in Him is simply not an option because you want to believe in Him so badly.  And some people never stop making excuses for God.  They go their entire life and never allow themselves to look at the situation rationally.

So to answer your question:  I was simply dumb enough to believe what I read in the Bible, plain and simple.  And when it didn't come true, I made excuses and blamed myself.  Until one day I could no longer blame myself for God's shortcomings.  That is when I began to see the light.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on June 12, 2009, 11:22:28 AM
Quote
What did you see, at that time, in the "power of prayer and the laying on of hands?"

At the time I saw the wonder and excitement of a God who would answer your prayers and work miracles.  I wanted it to be true.  I convinced myself it was true in spite of everything.

Quote
What do you think of that type of thing when you see it now?

It turns my stomach when I see people manipulated by ministers who obviously don't believe and use the hopes of others  for their own selfish gain.  And it makes me feel sorry for people who still allow themselves to be deluded into believing what is so apparently not true.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: mram on June 12, 2009, 07:18:32 PM
Congratulations for opening the eye of reason. i have similar stories, but not allergies. mine were suicide attempts that failed again and again and they weren't just ordinary slash a wrist attempts. Mine were things like swallowing arsenic, shooting massive amounts of heroin, etc., and for years i thought god was saving me. I finally concluded i was just either not swallowing enough, not shooting enough and doctors were actually catching me at the last minute (which happened several times as well) and not the imaginary boogieman saving me so i could tell others of these so called miracles.
For now I've given up on suicide, but i never know what attempt might loom over the horizon, but I stopped putting faith in the boogie man. ;)
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: kevyrat69 on June 12, 2009, 07:43:33 PM
Ah LonestarGranddad,

I didn't have that kind of thing happen to me when I changed my ideas about things.

I am both happy for you and sad for you in that you found things about no god.  The reason I say sad it because I thought for myself is that my belief was something I could fall back on in a time of stress and uncertianty in my life  Also I feel kind of left out from people around me in that I know how life really is and that I just cannot believe in there god.

Welcome and hang in there.  Keep coming back and checking out different places to support your rational thoughts.

Kevin
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: William on June 12, 2009, 08:24:07 PM
LonestarGrandad, thanks for your answers.  Honestly written and VERY enlightening.
I'm so pleased to share your rational company here.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Mar on June 12, 2009, 10:44:07 PM
Congratulations for opening the eye of reason. i have similar stories, but not allergies. mine were suicide attempts that failed again and again and they weren't just ordinary slash a wrist attempts. Mine were things like swallowing arsenic, shooting massive amounts of heroin, etc., and for years i thought god was saving me. I finally concluded i was just either not swallowing enough, not shooting enough and doctors were actually catching me at the last minute (which happened several times as well) and not the imaginary boogieman saving me so i could tell others of these so called miracles.
For now I've given up on suicide, but i never know what attempt might loom over the horizon, but I stopped putting faith in the boogie man. ;)
I'm glad that you are okay now.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on June 13, 2009, 02:13:13 AM
Thanks to everyone for all the support.  I find it interesting that no Christians have weighed in on my story.  But then I have talked to Christians in person (including my own mother) about my story and none of them quite know what to say.  It's one thing to argue and debate what people "believe."  It is an entirely different thing to try and answer someones true experience with the usual Christian platitudes.  They simply don't seem to apply very well.  But I welcome any Christian to try and explain God's actions (or rather inaction) as it applies to my own personal experience. 

I have many experiences from 30 years of trying to be a Christian.  The only thing I can say about them is "What a waste." 
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Operator_A25 on June 13, 2009, 09:51:07 AM
Good story, LoneStarGrandad!  Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: mram on June 13, 2009, 08:14:21 PM
They'll probably start telling you it's all been test time. Use a No 2 pencil, No peeking at your neighbors bible, show all your work and turn your paper over when finished...I guess.  &)
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: screwtape on June 15, 2009, 10:53:55 AM
Thank you for sharing, Lonestar.  It sounds like your wife was on the delusion bandwagon with you.  I am curious, did she hop off with you, or is she still on it?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on June 15, 2009, 11:12:27 AM
Quote
It sounds like your wife was on the delusion bandwagon with you.  I am curious, did she hop off with you, or is she still on it?

Fortunately, both of us started asking questions at the same time.  My wife, of 25 years, is my best friend and in spite of our religious experiences, I am proud to say we are still best friends.  Now, we count on each other more than ever.  We are making the absolute best of the life we have.  Instead of looking to an eternal future we are not wasting one day.   Wish everyone could see things as clearly.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: screwtape on June 15, 2009, 02:49:55 PM
I am glad to hear that.  It can be problematic when one person comes to their senses and the other does not.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: kevyrat69 on June 16, 2009, 12:09:45 AM

Fortunately, both of us started asking questions at the same time.  My wife, of 25 years, is my best friend and in spite of our religious experiences, I am proud to say we are still best friends.  Now, we count on each other more than ever.  We are making the absolute best of the life we have.  Instead of looking to an eternal future we are not wasting one day.   Wish everyone could see things as clearly.

I am so happy for you Lonestar!!!  I have to tell you that having someone that has some of the same feelings and can relate with you and changed with you is the most wonderful thing for anybody!!!
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: superfly on June 28, 2009, 07:23:43 PM
welcome to the dark-side,  Lonestargrandad.  ;D

that was an amazing story.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: inveni0 on June 28, 2009, 07:34:24 PM
If He really existed and loved me, He could have shown me with the tiniest of gestures.  I didn't need a miracle, just a moment.  I never got either and now that I am viewing life through rational eyes I see why.  Not only am I free from all the questions, I am also free from the burden that there might be something wrong with me that would keep a loving God from throwing me a crumb.

 I am not a Christian, I am not a sinner, I am not a rebel, I am not an atheist.  I am a rational person.

You're also a liar.  You were never devoted to the Bible, else you would have remembered the story of Job.  You would have remembered the passages of Isaiah.  You would have remembered the predicaments of Paul and Silas.

If you are not a liar, then you are simply still in your living purgatory.  God will help you, as soon as you find the will to praise Him, even in suffering.  I know...it doesn't sound rational.  But if you aren't a liar, then you know it's true.  You've just been distracted.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Ananukia on June 28, 2009, 07:48:36 PM
If He really existed and loved me, He could have shown me with the tiniest of gestures.  I didn't need a miracle, just a moment.  I never got either and now that I am viewing life through rational eyes I see why.  Not only am I free from all the questions, I am also free from the burden that there might be something wrong with me that would keep a loving God from throwing me a crumb.

  I am not a Christian, I am not a sinner, I am not a rebel, I am not an atheist.  I am a rational person.

You're also a liar.  You were never devoted to the Bible, else you would have remembered the story of Job.  You would have remembered the passages of Isaiah.  You would have remembered the predicaments of Paul and Silas.

If you are not a liar, then you are simply still in your living purgatory.  God will help you, as soon as you find the will to praise Him, even in suffering.  I know...it doesn't sound rational.  But if you aren't a liar, then you know it's true.  You've just been distracted.

You tell him, Paladin of the Silver hand, inveni0!
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on June 28, 2009, 07:51:40 PM
Quote
You're also a liar.  You were never devoted to the Bible, else you would have remembered the story of Job.  You would have remembered the passages of Isaiah.  You would have remembered the predicaments of Paul and Silas.

If you are not a liar, then you are simply still in your living purgatory.  God will help you, as soon as you find the will to praise Him, even in suffering.  I know...it doesn't sound rational.  But if you aren't a liar, then you know it's true.  You've just been distracted.

Thank you for your "Christ Like Spirit".  You say I am a liar because I don't equate Gods' total ambivalence towards me as a Job like test, or a Paul and Silas Like test.  My answer to you is that in close to 30 years of believing in God and praising Him and all of the other, He never once did anything for me - like He did for Job or Paul and Silas.  After decades of being a follower, I realized that God was not reciprocal in our relationship.  But thanks again for the judgement.  It is a nice reminder of how peaceful my life has become since I left the fold of believers.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: none on June 28, 2009, 07:53:30 PM
not devoted to the bible...
I guess without the bible god doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: inveni0 on June 28, 2009, 07:59:26 PM
Quote
You're also a liar.  You were never devoted to the Bible, else you would have remembered the story of Job.  You would have remembered the passages of Isaiah.  You would have remembered the predicaments of Paul and Silas.

If you are not a liar, then you are simply still in your living purgatory.  God will help you, as soon as you find the will to praise Him, even in suffering.  I know...it doesn't sound rational.  But if you aren't a liar, then you know it's true.  You've just been distracted.

Thank you for your "Christ Like Spirit".  You say I am a liar because I don't equate Gods' total ambivalence towards me as a Job like test, or a Paul and Silas Like test.  My answer to you is that in close to 30 years of believing in God and praising Him and all of the other, He never once did anything for me - like He did for Job or Paul and Silas.  After decades of being a follower, I realized that God was not reciprocal in our relationship.  But thanks again for the judgement.  It is a nice reminder of how peaceful my life has become since I left the fold of believers.


Judgment?  I said that you are either or.  You decided to be a liar.  That's okay.  I'm a liar, too.  You just need to be honest with yourself.  Tell me...what did God do for Job after killing his family, destroying his livelihood and cursing him with boils?  Tell me, what did God do for Paul and Silas after sending them into a cruel and hartless world, causing them to be jailed, then freed, only to die sad and alone--without material or family?  Really...tell me.

You need to decide what you want from God.  Then, decide how that fits even remotely with the Bible you were so religiously devoted to.  Peruse scripture and find a place where God promised you an easy time--or even a 'normal' time.  Then, maybe you'll realize that you were never devoted to God, but instead to the lies you were fed about him as a child.  He is not who you think he is.  And it's good that you realize that now.  But it's bad that you do not continue to seek him.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: none on June 28, 2009, 08:00:32 PM
oh god high up the heavens set me on fire.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Emily on June 28, 2009, 08:01:35 PM
[bookmark]
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Cynic on June 28, 2009, 08:06:13 PM
Can you feel the Christian love?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on June 28, 2009, 08:12:55 PM
Initially, your post reminded me of so many Christians that I have known who pass judgment on people because we do not all walk in lockstep with what they believe.

After your second post, I can see where you are coming from.  You say that I was never devoted to the Bible because I hold God responsible for not answering my prayers.  Instead, I should have suffered in silence.  But, according to the Bible, God gave job back what had lost through his time of testing.  God also answered many prayers of Paul and Silas ( including the one where God sent angel to physically free him from prison.  According to the Bible, God was interactive with Job and Paul and Silas.  So, being a Bible devoted Christian, I believed that God would be interactive in my life as well.  Being a Bible devoted Christian, I knew that I could be tested by God, but I should also have some sort of communion with Him. 

So it is true, I was devoted to the God of the Christian Bible.  He is not who the Bible says He is.  Having said that, I don't know why I should still seek Him.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on June 28, 2009, 08:17:52 PM
stupid question:  what does bookmark mean?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Emily on June 28, 2009, 08:20:26 PM
Simply put, it means I'm going to be following this thread closer than others.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on June 28, 2009, 08:21:04 PM
Thanks, I thought it might be something like that.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: none on June 28, 2009, 08:22:53 PM
can't you see...
its clear as day: an omnipresent omnipotent loving god who rapes and pillages, commits genocide and basically ignores your prayers wants you to seek him.
plus he, god, works in mysterious ways.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: inveni0 on June 28, 2009, 08:33:31 PM
But, according to the Bible, God gave job back what had lost through his time of testing.  God also answered many prayers of Paul and Silas ( including the one where God sent angel to physically free him from prison.  According to the Bible, God was interactive with Job and Paul and Silas.

Can you please share Book, Chapter, Verse, Translation?  I don't remember them ever winding up better off than I--or with more evidence of God than I.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on June 28, 2009, 08:48:56 PM
Acts Chapter 5 KJV
14And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)
15Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
16There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
17Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation,
18And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison.
19But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said,
20Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life.

According to this, Peter had immensely more proof that God exists than I ever did.

My story is simple.  I didn't need God to send an angel down into a prison and set me free.  All I needed was for Him to share 3 measly little words with me:  "Don't take aspirin." 

Edit:  Translation added
Edit:  wrong apostle
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: inveni0 on June 28, 2009, 09:02:11 PM
All I needed was for Him to share 3 measly little words with me:  "Don't take aspirin."  

So you give your ailment to science, then blame God when it doesn't work?  Really?  I'm not against science, but there are plenty of warnings on Asprin bottles, and common sense.  Mayhap I'm alone here, but I don't need God to tell me to use common sense.  Neither should you.

EDIT:  Let me add something here.  When I was facing what I strongly believed to be schizophrenia, and I was constantly surrounded by what I now believe to be demons, I sought refuge in science.  But science wouldn't help me.  Three different doctors denied medication.  After sharing horrifying visions, I was told by three different doctors (not Christians) that they believed it would pass, and that there was nothing wrong with me.  See...I had turned my back on God--I tried to live life my own way, and he chose to reveal to me the realm of evil.  Was it real?  I'm not sure...to this day, I'm not sure.  But I do know that it only stopped when I found myself in the middle of a field, running from a demon.  I looked to the sky, I threw my hands up, and I said, "I can't do this on my own!  Please, help me!"  Immediately, the visions were gone.  Self fulfilled?  Perhaps.  But my heart tells me otherwise.  And sometimes I have to do what feels right...and not just what feels better.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on June 28, 2009, 09:11:21 PM
First of all,
You shouldn't ask for chapter and verse, and then when it is given, ignore it as if it is no longer important.  Wouldn't you agree that Peter had more proof that God exists than you or I?  God sent an angel to free him from prison.  That seems pretty interactive.  Doesn't it?

Secondly,
WHAT???  I'm not blaming God that I am allergic to aspirin.  I am simply stating that if God does exist, and the Bible is true, and He does answer prayer, and He knows me so well that even the hairs of my head are numbered, why wouldn't he share with me the fact that I am allergic to aspirin?  He doesn't have to take the allergy away, simply inform me of it.  It would have been a loving thing to do.  Ultimately, through testing, I learned of my allergy and it is no longer in issue - but no thanks to God.

EDIT:  I don't think you read my original post or you would have understood the aspirin comment.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: none on June 28, 2009, 09:17:28 PM
using common sense would negate the bible (something that IS worshiped).
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Ananukia on June 28, 2009, 09:29:40 PM
All I needed was for Him to share 3 measly little words with me:  "Don't take aspirin." 

So you give your ailment to science, then blame God when it doesn't work?  Really?  I'm not against science, but there are plenty of warnings on Asprin bottles, and common sense.  Mayhap I'm alone here, but I don't need God to tell me to use common sense.  Neither should you.

EDIT:  Let me add something here.  When I was facing what I strongly believed to be schizophrenia, and I was constantly surrounded by what I now believe to be demons, I sought refuge in science.  But science wouldn't help me.  Three different doctors denied medication.  After sharing horrifying visions, I was told by three different doctors (not Christians) that they believed it would pass, and that there was nothing wrong with me.  See...I had turned my back on God--I tried to live life my own way, and he chose to reveal to me the realm of evil.  Was it real?  I'm not sure...to this day, I'm not sure.  But I do know that it only stopped when I found myself in the middle of a field, running from a demon.  I looked to the sky, I threw my hands up, and I said, "I can't do this on my own!  Please, help me!"  Immediately, the visions were gone.  Self fulfilled?  Perhaps.  But my heart tells me otherwise.  And sometimes I have to do what feels right...and not just what feels better.

God hates lairs, I hope you know that.

(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q191/linkvzelda/angery.jpg)
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on June 28, 2009, 09:33:15 PM
Where have I lied?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Emily on June 28, 2009, 09:35:00 PM
Quote
EDIT:  Let me add something here.  When I was facing what I strongly believed to be schizophrenia, and I was constantly surrounded by what I now believe to be demons, I sought refuge in science.  But science wouldn't help me.  Three different doctors denied medication.  After sharing horrifying visions, I was told by three different doctors (not Christians) that they believed it would pass, and that there was nothing wrong with me.  See...I had turned my back on God--I tried to live life my own way, and he chose to reveal to me the realm of evil.  Was it real?  I'm not sure...to this day, I'm not sure.  But I do know that it only stopped when I found myself in the middle of a field, running from a demon.  I looked to the sky, I threw my hands up, and I said, "I can't do this on my own!  Please, help me!"  Immediately, the visions were gone.  Self fulfilled?  Perhaps.  But my heart tells me otherwise.  And sometimes I have to do what feels right...and not just what feels better.

Funny, when I turned my back on god and became an atheist I never experienced anything horrible like that. (I should note that I was very deeply devoted to god)

 It was all in your mind dude. No demons.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on June 28, 2009, 09:37:04 PM
Quote
EDIT:  Let me add something here.  When I was facing what I strongly believed to be schizophrenia, and I was constantly surrounded by what I now believe to be demons, I sought refuge in science.  But science wouldn't help me.  Three different doctors denied medication.  After sharing horrifying visions, I was told by three different doctors (not Christians) that they believed it would pass, and that there was nothing wrong with me.  See...I had turned my back on God--I tried to live life my own way, and he chose to reveal to me the realm of evil.  Was it real?  I'm not sure...to this day, I'm not sure.  But I do know that it only stopped when I found myself in the middle of a field, running from a demon.  I looked to the sky, I threw my hands up, and I said, "I can't do this on my own!  Please, help me!"  Immediately, the visions were gone.  Self fulfilled?  Perhaps.  But my heart tells me otherwise.  And sometimes I have to do what feels right...and not just what feels better.

Funny, when I turned my back on god and became an atheist I never experienced anything horrible like that. (I should note that I was very deeply devoted to god)

 It was all in your mind dude. No demons.


These demons didn't happen to me, they happened to the believer who thinks I am a liar.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Emily on June 28, 2009, 09:39:02 PM
Quote
EDIT:  Let me add something here.  When I was facing what I strongly believed to be schizophrenia, and I was constantly surrounded by what I now believe to be demons, I sought refuge in science.  But science wouldn't help me.  Three different doctors denied medication.  After sharing horrifying visions, I was told by three different doctors (not Christians) that they believed it would pass, and that there was nothing wrong with me.  See...I had turned my back on God--I tried to live life my own way, and he chose to reveal to me the realm of evil.  Was it real?  I'm not sure...to this day, I'm not sure.  But I do know that it only stopped when I found myself in the middle of a field, running from a demon.  I looked to the sky, I threw my hands up, and I said, "I can't do this on my own!  Please, help me!"  Immediately, the visions were gone.  Self fulfilled?  Perhaps.  But my heart tells me otherwise.  And sometimes I have to do what feels right...and not just what feels better.

Funny, when I turned my back on god and became an atheist I never experienced anything horrible like that. (I should note that I was very deeply devoted to god)

 It was all in your mind dude. No demons.


These demons didn't happen to me, they happened to the believer who thinks I am a liar.


OH, I know, I was commenting on invenl0.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on June 28, 2009, 09:40:21 PM
annanukia, Why call me a liar?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on June 28, 2009, 09:42:55 PM
envinio, what is your response to post 41?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: inveni0 on June 28, 2009, 09:54:16 PM
First of all,
You shouldn't ask for chapter and verse, and then when it is given, ignore it as if it is no longer important.  Wouldn't you agree that Peter had more proof that God exists than you or I?  God sent an angel to free him from prison.  That seems pretty interactive.  Doesn't it?

Secondly,
WHAT???  I'm not blaming God that I am allergic to aspirin.  I am simply stating that if God does exist, and the Bible is true, and He does answer prayer, and He knows me so well that even the hairs of my head are numbered, why wouldn't he share with me the fact that I am allergic to aspirin?  He doesn't have to take the allergy away, simply inform me of it.  It would have been a loving thing to do.  Ultimately, through testing, I learned of my allergy and it is no longer in issue - but no thanks to God.

EDIT:  I don't think you read my original post or you would have understood the aspirin comment.

I understand the aspirin comment.  I just think you're being unreasonable.  I'm allergic to coconut...I found that out the hard way.  Never once did it even cross my mind to blame God for not giving me a handbook with all of my earthly weakness laid out and numbered.

I asked for chapter and verse so that you would read it again.  I hoped that you would think about "after" the "miracles" these people experienced.  Let's make it clear:  Lost family, pain and suffering, brutal beatings...these are things you don't just rectify.  Job didn't get his family back.  Paul and Silas saw an angel that saved them from prison?  They were locked in a dark, damp dungeon with hardly any food and drink...I don't know if I trust any of what they saw.  Regardless, where were the angels any other time?  Why did they still die alone and suffering?


Funny, when I turned my back on god and became an atheist I never experienced anything horrible like that. (I should note that I was very deeply devoted to god)

 It was all in your mind dude. No demons.

I wasn't going to reply to anyone else, but I have to agree with you.  The only thing that makes me wonder is that I have several accounts of others experiencing these things when around me.  For instance, my girlfriend at the time (now my wife) had been talking to me on the phone.  One of my ears was pressed against my pillow.  The other had my earpiece.  As she was speaking, I heard a female voice (I became convinced that the primary demon following me was female).  What freaked me out was that I heard it only in the ear pressed against the pillow.  I tried to ignore it, but my wife said, "What was that?"  I didn't want to feed her any information, so I said, "What was what?"  She said, "I thought I heard a voice."  I asked, "What kind of voice."  She said, "A girl's voice."  Could that still be in my head?  Perhaps I made the sound myself...some sort of split personality thing coming through...I honestly don't know.

Another instance was after we were married.  I was having a dream that I was holding my son when a demon entered my body.  I immediately put him down so that I/the demon wouldn't hurt him.  I ran downstairs as the demon took full control.  I started writhing on the floor, licking the carpet.  At that exact moment, my wife called my name and I woke up.  I rolled over, my mouth dry, and said, "What do you want?"  She asked, "What's going on?"  I said, "What do you mean?"  She said, "You were just sitting up, and your eyes were glowing."  Again...was this in my head?

My mind tells me none of this happened.  My wife vouches for this and many other tales, (as well as some other people and friends).  If not for that, I wouldn't question my insanity.  But when I asked to be set free...I was.  Maybe it was of my own doing...maybe not.  But I choose to follow what my heart tells me is true, and that's my choice to make.

EDIT: Were you deeply devoted to God, or to religion, instruction and ritual?

@ LonestarGrandad
You'll come back.  I hope.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Ananukia on June 28, 2009, 09:57:59 PM
annanukia, Why call me a liar?

I was talking to envinio
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on June 28, 2009, 10:05:31 PM
But, according to the Bible, God gave job back what had lost through his time of testing.  God also answered many prayers of Paul and Silas ( including the one where God sent angel to physically free him from prison.  According to the Bible, God was interactive with Job and Paul and Silas.

Can you please share Book, Chapter, Verse, Translation?  I don't remember them ever winding up better off than I--or with more evidence of God than I.

You say that you only asked for chapter and verse so that I would look it up and read it again.  But look at your quote above.  "Please share chapter and verse . . . I don't remember them winding up . . . with more evidence of God than I.  Clearly you wanted chapter and verse to show they were better off and had more evidence of God than you.  Angels walking up to you, talking to you, opening locked doors for you, are all examples of these people having more evidence of God than you or I - If you believe the Bible.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Emily on June 28, 2009, 10:09:55 PM
Quote
EDIT: Were you deeply devoted to God, or to religion, instruction and ritual?

I went to two church serviced on Sunday, service on Wednesday, youth on Friday and choir practice. Also My devotion ran very deep. I'd pray, worship, witness, everything. Not to mention I attended church camps and conferences.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on June 28, 2009, 10:21:47 PM
I understand the aspirin comment.  I just think you're being unreasonable.  I'm allergic to coconut...I found that out the hard way.  Never once did it even cross my mind to blame God for not giving me a handbook with all of my earthly weakness laid out and numbered.

You are missing the entire point of this thread.  I am not blaming God for not giving me a handbook.

This site claims that since God doesn't work miracles, He doesn't exist.  This thread is my response to that supposition.

If the Bible is true, if God answers prayer, if anything we ask believing we shall receive, if God knows how to give His children what they need more than we do, if God talks to us through a still small voice, if God will heal the sick, give sight to the blind, raise up the dead, if we can do all the works that Jesus did and more because He went to the Father, if Peter's shadow could heal the sick, if Paul could be bitten by a serpent and not die and if all the other miraculous things in the Bible are true . . . then God would be doing these things today.

But my personal story doesn't require God to do any of these miraculous things.  I am simply stating the fact that over the course of decades of being a steadfast believer, God could have shown Himself to be what the bible says He is and given me a moment of His attention.  Not a miracle, just a moment.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on June 28, 2009, 11:01:10 PM
How about I dumb down the words of Epicurus and apply them to my situation.

Is God willing to tell me how to avoid breaking out in hives, but not able?
   Then He is not omnipotent.
Is God able to tell me but not willing?
   Then He is malevolent.
Is God both able and willing to keep me from breaking out in hives?
   Then why am I still breaking out?
Is God neither able nor willing?
   Then why believe in Him.

As a father, if you knew how to ease the pain of your child, would you? 


Thanks Cynic
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Mar on June 29, 2009, 04:01:50 AM
inveni0, do not insult human beings just because your God is doing a s**tty job convincing us that he is real. No evidence, no belief. That's called reason, dear. I'm sorry that we threaten your little delusion with our stories. You know this or you wouldn't be calling LonestarGrandad a liar. Usually, when I want to HELP someone I don't call them a liar merely because I want them to be one. You live with US, not God. Treat us with a little respect and learn a little something called "reading comprehension." I know it makes you feel "special" and powerful when you convert people, but please leave that up to God because you are doing a terrible job. If God doesn't convince us of his existence then we're destined to Hell then. While enjoying our current pain-free lives, we would prefer if you did not give us headaches. Thanks.

P.S. If the Muslims are right, I guess I'll see you in Hell, also. Don't bother me too much.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Agga on June 29, 2009, 04:44:11 AM
Tell me...what did God do for Job after killing his family, destroying his livelihood and cursing him with boils?

Won the bet between him and satan?  Undo all the horrible thngs that he allowed satan to do to win that bet?

What a pal.



What's your point, that because god undone the horrible things that he allowed satan to do to Job that we should all believe that god will do that same for to us?


So, god did it for 'X' 'Y' 'Z' person in scripture which means that a person is a liar because god doesn't do that same thing for them.

Is that, and calling someone a liar, your basic counter-argument to the experiences of the thread starter?


That's it?


Dear oh dear..
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: screwtape on June 29, 2009, 07:43:29 AM
Tell me...what did God do for Job after killing his family, destroying his livelihood and cursing him with boils?

Won the bet between him and satan?  Undo all the horrible thngs that he allowed satan to do to win that bet?

Yhwh did not undo the things that happened.  It did not ressurect the children that were killed.  It "replaced" them with new ones, as if people you love can just be replaced.  It "blessed" Job with more wealth. 

Whether or not it was yhwh or Job who actually did those things is up for debate.  I presume Job made his own children the way they have always been made and yhwh just abstained from murdering them this time.  Same for his wealth of cattle and goats.


I am not sure why anyone is bothering to continue conversation with inveni0.  He has a mental illness.  It is unfair of you to expect to have a rational discussion.  I think that has been amply demonstrated, what with all the talk about demons and posession.  It will only frustrate both of you.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on June 29, 2009, 08:27:00 AM
Yhwh did not undo the things that happened.  It did not ressurect the children that were killed.  It "replaced" them with new ones, as if people you love can just be replaced.  It "blessed" Job with more wealth. 

Screwtape, what an insightful take on God's "blessing Job" with more children.  I never thought of it as Him replacing them.  How callous!  I have 2 grown daughters and they are irreplaceable.  Just another example of my buying the whole "God is love" thing for way too long.  Thanks again.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Ambassador Pony on June 29, 2009, 08:45:42 AM
This whole liar business smacks of "way of the master" street preaching bullshit. How is it that if someone has told a lie a few times or even once in their life, they are a liar?

I did some electrical work in my house twice. Does that make me an electrician?

The word liar implies a pathology, and pattern of repetition. If snakeoil salemen want to sell you a cure, they have to convince you pretty quick that you have the disease.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: inveni0 on June 30, 2009, 08:51:48 AM
I understand the aspirin comment.  I just think you're being unreasonable.  I'm allergic to coconut...I found that out the hard way.  Never once did it even cross my mind to blame God for not giving me a handbook with all of my earthly weakness laid out and numbered.

You are missing the entire point of this thread.  I am not blaming God for not giving me a handbook.

This site claims that since God doesn't work miracles, He doesn't exist.  This thread is my response to that supposition.

If the Bible is true, if God answers prayer, if anything we ask believing we shall receive, if God knows how to give His children what they need more than we do, if God talks to us through a still small voice, if God will heal the sick, give sight to the blind, raise up the dead, if we can do all the works that Jesus did and more because He went to the Father, if Peter's shadow could heal the sick, if Paul could be bitten by a serpent and not die and if all the other miraculous things in the Bible are true . . . then God would be doing these things today.

But my personal story doesn't require God to do any of these miraculous things.  I am simply stating the fact that over the course of decades of being a steadfast believer, God could have shown Himself to be what the bible says He is and given me a moment of His attention.  Not a miracle, just a moment.

If not a miracle, then what?  You complain because he hasn't been vocal (would that not be a miracle)?  It sounds like you've simply realized that God isn't the "God" that church claims him to be.  Congratulations.  But that doesn't mean that there is no God.  How will you ever know the truth if you resign yourself to only allowing God to fit in Church's little box?

And, finally, about God giving you a moment of his time...  How many pathetic quitters did God ever give a moment to?  God rewards the strong and bold.  You sound like a whiny wimp.  Suck it up.  The men in the Bible were apostles, prophets, etc.  Perhaps God revealed himself to them because he knew they wouldn't pee their pants at a flash of light.  It sounds like you want a Damascus Road Experience, but from the sound of it, you wouldn't even be able to cope with such a thing.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: screwtape on June 30, 2009, 09:15:47 AM
How will you ever know the truth if you resign yourself to only allowing God to fit in Church's little box?

I'm half-way there with you.  I would word it thusly: "How will you ever know the truth?"  and cut it short there.  Because how can you know the truth about a god that is supposedly inscrutable? About a god that does not talk to us or interact unambiguously?  How can you know if the spirit is with you or if it is just a draught in the building?  How can you know if the illiterate savages whose traditions were recorded in the bible were telling the truth?  You cannot.

And, finally, about God giving you a moment of his time...  How many pathetic quitters did God ever give a moment to?  God rewards the strong and bold. 

Quote from: mat 5:5
5Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

You sound like a whiny wimp.  Suck it up.  The men in the Bible were apostles, prophets, etc.  Perhaps God revealed himself to them because he knew they wouldn't pee their pants at a flash of light.  It sounds like you want a Damascus Road Experience, but from the sound of it, you wouldn't even be able to cope with such a thing.

That's it.  Try to shame him to the lord.  Then again, you are crazy afterall...
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Ambassador Pony on June 30, 2009, 10:31:14 AM
He's not crazy, he's going to fly me and an amputee to where he lives then magically regenrate the limb. That is, if he has any faith at all, or the back-bone to return to the thread he ran away from.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on June 30, 2009, 10:33:42 AM
And, finally, about God giving you a moment of his time...  How many pathetic quitters did God ever give a moment to?  God rewards the strong and bold.  You sound like a whiny wimp.  Suck it up.  The men in the Bible were apostles, prophets, etc.  Perhaps God revealed himself to them because he knew they wouldn't pee their pants at a flash of light.  It sounds like you want a Damascus Road Experience, but from the sound of it, you wouldn't even be able to cope with such a thing.

inveni0,
You are a wonderful example of what a Christian is.   Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on June 30, 2009, 11:04:42 AM
inveni0,

May Elohim the Lord of Hosts bless you mightily!  Your final words to me have had a miraculous effect.  Between you and the Holy Ghost I am now convicted of all my past unbelief.  You really must be high up in God's army!  I don't know how I could have gone astray but you have certainly lead me back home.  Thanks to you and your Christian example and attitude I am now back in the fold. 

Thank you!  Thank you!  Thank you!


IDIOT!
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on June 30, 2009, 11:14:47 AM
It sounds like you've simply realized that God isn't the "God" that church claims him to be.

That the bible claims god to be, not the church.

Quote
  Congratulations.  But that doesn't mean that there is no God.

A logical negation of an idea does mean that that idea is fallacious and making the conclusion that that thing does not exist as defined is entirely rational/logic/responsible.


Quote
  How will you ever know the truth if you resign yourself to only allowing God to fit in Church's little box?

Bible's little box.

If you are going to claim god is something else then you essentially have to engage in redefining that god from entirely your own arbitrary subjective imagination.  Which would lead us to the next problem of god being imaginary.  I would hope you would accompany that claim about god with reason, information ( evidence ), and logic.. but somehow I doubt it.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: William on June 30, 2009, 11:17:47 AM
God rewards the strong and bold. 

(http://jimcofer.com/personal/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/mad_men_s02_e12_01.jpg)

Deliver us from NONGS  &)
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Dominic on June 30, 2009, 01:03:29 PM

If He really existed and loved me, He could have shown me with the tiniest of gestures.  I didn't need a miracle, just a moment.  I never got either and now that I am viewing life through rational eyes I see why.  Not only am I free from all the questions, I am also free from the burden that there might be something wrong with me that would keep a loving God from throwing me a crumb.


You seem to be making an underlying assumption that any suffering is bad and that any half-decent God must end all suffering immediately or else that God must hate the poor suffering person to allow them to suffer more than for the briefest moment.

If so, this is an erroneous assumption.  Suffering is not all bad.  Some suffering can lead to great good.  An athlete for example will often experience suffering during training (no pain no gain) but through accepting that suffering can achieve potential greatness.

A parent may suffer for a child eg getting up more than once each night to feed or soothe a crying baby.  Obviously a greater good is achieved through such difficulties of life.

Often some of the best things in life are only achieved or appreciated after some hardship or suffering has been experienced.

'A good God' would focus on the good end point rather than preventing any difficulties or troubles on the path to that end destination.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on June 30, 2009, 01:12:46 PM
Red herring.

A god, being omnipotent and omniscient, need not include suffering regardless if it is viewed as good or bad.  The only relevant problem here is that a god does not instantly attain through its absolute ability to do so.  There are also deeper issues in that the context of the religion your claiming paints certain realities that occur as being antithetical to that gods desires.  The question can simply be reworded.

Your response simply downplays suffering as it relates to our existence and attempts to justify the end goal by presuming a greater purpose that ultimately doesn't answer that question.  It simply begs the same question again.  Even if a god existed that allowed suffering to occur, then that itself would be sufficient reason to identify it as in opposition to our existence as humans.  Good or bad, its concerns are entirely alien to us and that just makes it worse philosophically speaking.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on June 30, 2009, 01:22:07 PM
You can then make another philosophically half-witted mistake and conclude on appeals to choice.

However, choice is just as bad an option as trying to appeal to a greater purpose.  The greater purpose is negated by the logical fact that god would have the ability to do absolutely anything instantly.  To suggest anything less is to beg the question of why.  Choice does a similar thing in that it makes the pleading appeal meaningless as a deciding factor for the end goal.  The reason for this is that choice is limited to individuals being asked by other individuals to make a choice about something they know not and that they do not even know that they have too.  The difference between the two individuals is not what they know, but what they randomly attach onto outside of any appeal/question for what may be true.  In the end you have a group of people that made choice A without any relevant information and you had people that made choice B without any relevant information.

It would be the same in purpose as if you simply pre-selected group A or B without even bothering to ask them.  Which just begs the question of how is choice relevant in this situation where you do not have the information to know what you're asked to choose or that you even need make a choice?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on June 30, 2009, 01:24:51 PM

If He really existed and loved me, He could have shown me with the tiniest of gestures.  I didn't need a miracle, just a moment.  I never got either and now that I am viewing life through rational eyes I see why.  Not only am I free from all the questions, I am also free from the burden that there might be something wrong with me that would keep a loving God from throwing me a crumb.


You seem to be making an underlying assumption that any suffering is bad and that any half-decent God must end all suffering immediately or else that God must hate the poor suffering person to allow them to suffer more than for the briefest moment.

If so, this is an erroneous assumption.  Suffering is not all bad.  Some suffering can lead to great good.  An athlete for example will often experience suffering during training (no pain no gain) but through accepting that suffering can achieve potential greatness.

A parent may suffer for a child eg getting up more than once each night to feed or soothe a crying baby.  Obviously a greater good is achieved through such difficulties of life.

Often some of the best things in life are only achieved or appreciated after some hardship or suffering has been experienced.
'A good God' would focus on the good end point rather than preventing any difficulties or troubles on the path to that end destination.

First of all, I do not believe that all suffering is bad.  I also don't believe that God MUST end all suffering immediately.  In the context of my story, my point was that if there is a God who claims to answer prayer and He has the power to work miracles, my need was simple.  It didn't even require a miracle.  All it required was for him to get some knowledge to me that I didn't know.

Suffering is not all bad.  I just finished working out.  Believe me, I suffered.  But it is for the good and I even enjoyed it.

There were plenty of  times when my kids suffered and I knew it was for their own good.  They grew up hearing me tell them to face their fear.  You can't face your fears without some suffering.  We both agree on this.

But If my kids were sick, I wouldn't hesitate to tell them to lie on a heating pad, or vomit if they needed to, or anything that was within my power.  And if it wasn't in my power, I wouldn't hesitate to get them medical attention.

If God wanted me to suffer by not driving a new car or by not finding that perfect wife, or a thousand other things in life, I can understand.  But if it was within His grasp to help me without even needing to heal me, it makes me wonder. 

And while it is true that a good God would focus on the good end point, it is also true that Christians will readily tell you that he answers prayer.  His own book says that He will answer prayer.  My point was that if (through my experience) God could speak to me through various ministers about all other things in my life, why couldn't he speak to me about this one thing.  According to these ministers, He wasn't averse to telling me other things that He knew about me.  Why not this?

Which brings me to the statement, I didn't need a miracle, just a moment.

Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Mar on July 01, 2009, 12:20:41 AM
LonestarGrandad, great post.

Omen, good post.

Dominic, suffering happens because it's part of our reality. We are flawed humans on this flawed world. We try to make the best of every situation because if we didn't we'd just give up on life. However, suffering is not necessary if an all-powerful/all-knowing/all-loving God is behind everything. If you had a child and you could prevent this child from suffering, wouldn't you? Of course, you would. Because you are human being and you know how it feels to suffer.

God created us a certain way. We are supposed to be "below" him when it comes to our bodies and minds, so God created us so that we are "missing" things that we could have had had we been made like him. God could have made it so we didn't have to suffer. God could have made it so we got to a "good end point" without having to suffer. Is it a God or not?

God's current plan isn't working at all because sometimes there is not a good end point after the suffering. Sometimes people are so stressed by suffering that they develop mental disorders. Some people end their lives or the lives of others because they obviously can't handle the stress that they have received. That tired woman waking up to feed her baby? She has postpartum depression and she murders her baby. That athlete? Works his ass off, suffers a cardiac arrest, and dies. Good end points? Well, I guess the dead go to Heaven? Yay? While the family on Earth suffers? Yay? I double dare you to defend rape. Alzheimer's? A little kid with cancer?

It's not good to abandon your children and force them to figure out what they are supposed to do on their own. It's not good to abandon your children and let them suffer. We don't do that, but it's okay for God to do that? We would obviously be doing a much better job had God not pretended like he doesn't exist. Maybe that would make some of our "good end points" easier to get to. And of course, knocking out the suffering would be perfect.

Please don't try to justify the actions (or lack thereof) of an all-powerful/all-knowing/all-loving God using the "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" defense. This being is absolutely embarrassing. Suffering is pointless. If this God is allowing suffering, then he doesn't care about us at all. He doesn't care about our pain. He only cares about HIS plan. We're just a game to him. And I do not care about such a God. Such a God is below any human who has ever lived and is unworthy of reverence and worship. Thankfully such a God does not exist.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Mar on July 01, 2009, 12:57:30 AM
inveni0, for the last time quit calling LonestarGrandad names. Do not call him a "whiny wimp" just because he left your clearly retarded religion. He has been showing YOU the UTMOST respect and so he deserves the same respect from you. You are speaking to human beings and you are a human being yourself, so get off of your high horse rocking chair. Stop making pathetic excuses for your God. His Bible sucks and he sucks at communicating with people. End of story. This dude needs robotic missionaries like you to do his work for him. No wonder he's inefficient at getting his message across.

He can't even communicate to my PARENTS who are actual Christians. I dare you to call them "whiny wimps." I dare you. That's what I thought. We don't have time to listen to you cry like a baby because you're "special" and emo. Yes, we are scratching at your delusion, but tough shit. Maybe you should remove yourself from WWGHA instead of taking your emoness out on us. Either God taps us on the shoulder or we don't believe in him. We're OPEN to non-retarded evidence but we're not idiots who'll believe shit just because "special" people talk to us about their "special" delusions and show us "special" books. We might as well be Muslims because they have a "special" book, too. Grow up and learn how to speak to adults.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: james456 on July 05, 2009, 05:52:38 AM
can't you see...
its clear as day: an omnipresent omnipotent loving god who rapes and pillages, commits genocide and basically ignores your prayers wants you to seek him.
plus he, god, works in mysterious ways.

[rapes] - physical suffering...don't agree?...Who claims rape when a physical act hasn't been involved?

[pillages] - physical suffering

[genocide] - physical suffering

[basically ignores your prayers] - please share exactly what prayers you've made that have been ignored

[wants you to seek him] - Wants you to be much, much bigger than this temporary physical existence.  Like He is.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Asmoday on July 05, 2009, 01:06:51 PM
[rapes] - physical suffering...don't agree?...Who claims rape when a physical act hasn't been involved?
James, I could provide you with several adresses of rape victims and their close relatives. I´d invite you to speak with them and tell them rape is only physical suffering.
Though in case of the parents of the raped girl, who commited suicide even after a long long therapy, I´d suggest you write down your last will and testament beforehand, because I can already tell, they wouldn´t take your message well...

Oh, and one more thing: Sexual abuse doesn´t need 'a physical act' to scar a person mentally for the rest of their life.

Quote
[pillages] - physical suffering
Ever talked to some people, who have been robbed and have been injured? Many of them need quite some time to "shake it off" and some of them never regain their feeling of security.

But thanks for your insight, from now on we´ll just tell them not to be such wussies, because it was only physical suffering. I´m sure they´ll feel much better after hearing that...  &)

Quote
[genocide] - physical suffering
Oh, yeah, sure. I suppose, you´ll just feel dandy, even if you know some people are out who are not only hellbent on but also perfectly able to kill not only you but also every last member of your family and all people close to you.

Just 'physical suffering'...yeah, right...
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Emily on July 05, 2009, 01:16:52 PM
It sounds to me that james456 isn't paying any attention to the emotional impact that rape, pillages, and genocide have on their victims. James456, try talking to someone who has post traumatic stress syndrome[1]
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posttraumatic_stress_disorder
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: none on July 05, 2009, 03:28:46 PM
can't you see...
its clear as day: an omnipresent omnipotent loving god who rapes and pillages, commits genocide and basically ignores your prayers wants you to seek him.
plus he, god, works in mysterious ways.

[rapes] - physical suffering...don't agree?...Who claims rape when a physical act hasn't been involved?

[pillages] - physical suffering

[genocide] - physical suffering

[basically ignores your prayers] - please share exactly what prayers you've made that have been ignored

[wants you to seek him] - Wants you to be much, much bigger than this temporary physical existence.  Like He is.
my mistake, god is imaginary.
the bible condones raping, pillaging, genocide becase it is what god wants... what ever that means.
and yeah seeking god is a paradox.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 05, 2009, 06:40:28 PM
Wants you to be much, much bigger than this temporary physical existence.  Like He is.

What if this is not a temporary physical existence?  What if this is all there is to our life?
NOBODY knows for certain what happens after you die.  You can state what you believe happens, but NOBODY can say that they KNOW. 

So if this is all there is, maybe God wants me to get the most out of this life.  Maybe it chaps God's hide to see so many people wasting the life He gave them on the chance that there will be a better one afterwards.  Maybe He considers it the ultimate insult for us to turn up our nose at this life in hopes of getting a better one.  (That is, if you believe He is there in the first place.)
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: CutePuppy on July 05, 2009, 10:24:43 PM
You seem to be making an underlying assumption that any suffering is bad and that any half-decent God must end all suffering immediately or else that God must hate the poor suffering person to allow them to suffer more than for the briefest moment.

If so, this is an erroneous assumption.  Suffering is not all bad.  Some suffering can lead to great good.

'A good God' would focus on the good end point rather than preventing any difficulties or troubles on the path to that end destination.

So following this line of thought: when is (Earthly) suffering bad?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: james456 on July 06, 2009, 10:37:09 AM
James, I could provide you with several adresses of rape victims and their close relatives. I´d invite you to speak with them and tell them rape is only physical suffering.
Though in case of the parents of the raped girl, who commited suicide even after a long long therapy, I´d suggest you write down your last will and testament beforehand, because I can already tell, they wouldn´t take your message well...

Oh, and one more thing: Sexual abuse doesn´t need 'a physical act' to scar a person mentally for the rest of their life.

Ever talked to some people, who have been robbed and have been injured? Many of them need quite some time to "shake it off" and some of them never regain their feeling of security.

But thanks for your insight, from now on we´ll just tell them not to be such wussies, because it was only physical suffering. I´m sure they´ll feel much better after hearing that...  &)

Oh, yeah, sure. I suppose, you´ll just feel dandy, even if you know some people are out who are not only hellbent on but also perfectly able to kill not only you but also every last member of your family and all people close to you.

Just 'physical suffering'...yeah, right...

Excellent points you’ve made, and all missing my point.  I’ve had a personal friend that was raped, described it to me in vivid detail, and it has made her a better person.  I am also well aware of countless victims that are emotionally scarred by their crimes for life.

Notice I’ve bolded your use of the words, ‘only’ and ‘just,’ and that these words did not appear in my post.

And notice that the common atheist/agnostic complaints against God and the Bible always include some type of physical suffering, indicative of their emphasis on all things physical.

God uses physical suffering in an attempt to point us towards far bigger and better things than the few decades we are on this earth.  There is tremendous hope for all those with a less-than-perfect life:  rape victims, ignored children, unjust imprisonment, lonely, deformed, abandoned…it’s not a matter of not being a “wussie.”  It’s a matter of getting to know your creator and seeing far more than this physical world.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: james456 on July 06, 2009, 10:46:59 AM
So if this is all there is, maybe God wants me to get the most out of this life.  Maybe it chaps God's hide to see so many people wasting the life He gave them on the chance that there will be a better one afterwards.  Maybe He considers it the ultimate insult for us to turn up our nose at this life in hopes of getting a better one.  (That is, if you believe He is there in the first place.)

Maybe you are exactly right.  You can make the best of this life and ALSO have an amazing view to the excellent one that is coming.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: screwtape on July 06, 2009, 11:48:55 AM
God uses physical suffering in an attempt to point us towards far bigger and better things than the few decades we are on this earth. 

Hi, james456.  Sorry to butt in.  Why do you suppose an omnipotent being needs to use physical suffering (as well as emotional suffering) to point us toward bigger and better things?   

The key point here is that for an omnipotent being, there are literally an infinite number of other ways to get the job done, none of which include suffering.  For an omnipotent being, there are no obstacles.  So why go the sadistic route?  It is like dog owners in this day and age who beat the shit out of their dogs for peeing on the carpet when we have more effective and more humane ways to do it.

And you said it was an attempt.  That implies it is not always successful. That does not work for me on several levels.  For one, an omnipotent being does not attempt.  It is like Yoda - it does or it does not.  There is no try.  Secondly, why would it attempt?  An omniscient being would know in advance whether its attempt would succeed or fail.  And if it is going to fail, then it is causing completely needless suffering.

If you have said the god you worship is not omnipotent, or it is not good, or it is not omniscient, I missed that, sorry.  If you think your god is omnipotent and good, then you may want to reconsider.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 06, 2009, 11:51:57 AM
God uses physical suffering in an attempt to point us towards far bigger and better things than the few decades we are on this earth.  There is tremendous hope for all those with a less-than-perfect life:  rape victims, ignored children, unjust imprisonment, lonely, deformed, abandoned…it’s not a matter of not being a “wussie.”  It’s a matter of getting to know your creator and seeing far more than this physical world.

God, an omniscient omnipotent being, can't do that without suffering?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 06, 2009, 12:33:31 PM
So if this is all there is, maybe God wants me to get the most out of this life.  Maybe it chaps God's hide to see so many people wasting the life He gave them on the chance that there will be a better one afterwards.  Maybe He considers it the ultimate insult for us to turn up our nose at this life in hopes of getting a better one.  (That is, if you believe He is there in the first place.)

Maybe you are exactly right.  You can make the best of this life and ALSO have an amazing view to the excellent one that is coming.

How do you know that there is an excellent one coming?  And If I am right, how can I make the best of this life with all this god-sanctioned suffering?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: james456 on July 06, 2009, 01:29:28 PM

screwtape, Omen, LonestarGrandad:


You all made good points, and I will reply as time allows.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 06, 2009, 01:31:34 PM

screwtape, Omen, LonestarGrandad:


You all made good points, and I will reply as time allows.

A yes or no would suffice, that doesn't take much time.

------------------

The answer is yes and therefore suffering overall is irrelevant to the end goal since god can have it in anyway god chooses, making your special pleading appeal for a greater purpose just a giant red herring.

OR

The answer is no and therefore god is not omnipotent and contradictory to its own existence.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 06, 2009, 01:40:22 PM
Omen,

Since your conclusion shows that neither yes or no can be a logical answer, you are making and substantiating the broader argument that God must be a man-made entity and therefore doesn't really exist.

Good job.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 06, 2009, 01:42:48 PM
Omen,

Since your conclusion shows that neither yes or no can be a logical answer, you are making and substantiating the broader argument that God must be a man-made entity and therefore doesn't really exist.

Good job.

Well, yes just means the answer to the question of evil ( or suffering ) is essentially an avoidance of the question and begs the same question ( if reworded ).

No, just confirms part of the question of evil that concludes god is not god.

I am unaware of any logic that would tie it to being man-made in a direct fashion, other then to tie it to emotional pleading.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 06, 2009, 01:48:10 PM
Emotional pleading is the tie.  Without appealing to our emotions, religion has no power, no pull.  Think of all those Christians watching Gibson's Passion of the Christ - not a dry eye in the house.  That movie was a religious experience because of the emotional tie.  Failing that, it would be just another slasher movie.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: none on July 06, 2009, 08:15:44 PM
I watched kill bill vol 1 and passion for the first time back to back over a couple of beers.
nothing impressive in either movie IMO.
my cousin liked kill bill.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Onesimus on July 06, 2009, 10:20:46 PM
You need to decide what you want from God.  Then, decide how that fits even remotely with the Bible you were so religiously devoted to.  Peruse scripture and find a place where God promised you an easy time--or even a 'normal' time.  Then, maybe you'll realize that you were never devoted to God, but instead to the lies you were fed about him as a child.  He is not who you think he is.  And it's good that you realize that now.  But it's bad that you do not continue to seek him.

Wow.

This is the best distillation of the "bait and switch" tactics of the church I have ever seen.  And it's coming from a believer.

Thank you, inveni0, for admitting that the church lies to kids in an effort to hold sway over their thinking throughout their lives.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: james456 on July 07, 2009, 11:03:41 AM
God uses physical suffering in an attempt to point us towards far bigger and better things than the few decades we are on this earth. 
Hi, james456.  Sorry to butt in.  Why do you suppose an omnipotent being needs to use physical suffering (as well as emotional suffering) to point us toward bigger and better things?   
He doesn’t ‘need’ to do anything.  It is one of many ways to point us.  We were meant to be spiritual creatures like Him, and therefore physical and emotional suffering are not the terror you make them out to be.  They become a terror when we refuse to acknowledge our creator.

The key point here is that for an omnipotent being, there are literally an infinite number of other ways to get the job done, none of which include suffering.  For an omnipotent being, there are no obstacles.  So why go the sadistic route?
“Sadistic” implies that God enjoys seeing us suffer.  It also implies that physical/emotional/mental suffering is the worst thing you can do to someone.  I contend that killing/scoffing at the human spirit is the worst thing you can do.  Suffering is just one of many things to deal with.  I had a good friend for years whose legs were crippled, but his spirit was so strong that it didn’t phase him.  He climbed mountains, went white-water rafting, had a big social life, and wasn’t phased by his condition.  A human spirit connected with God is bigger than anything life throws at it.

And you said it was an attempt.  That implies it is not always successful.
Exactly.

That does not work for me on several levels.  For one, an omnipotent being does not attempt.  It is like Yoda - it does or it does not.  There is no try.
I enjoyed Yoda as well, but please don’t compare George Lucas’ animated puppet to the living God.

Secondly, why would it attempt?  An omniscient being would know in advance whether its attempt would succeed or fail.  And if it is going to fail, then it is causing completely needless suffering.
Interesting how you turn the blame around to God.  The suffering becomes needless and pointless only when we reject Him in the midst of it.  It is our fault and not His.  God could force us to obey – use his omnipotent power on us – but that isn’t the way He works in most cases.  And yes, He knows in advance what the outcome will be.  He will use the record of his efforts one day as evidence that He was trying to reach you.  He could force everything to happen like puppets on a string, but He’s looking for more interaction than that.

God, an omniscient omnipotent being, can't do that without suffering?
Of course He can and does.  Suffering is one of the many ways.  You see suffering as this horrible, bloodthirsty activity.  I see it as the firm guidance of God – used temporarily and as needed.  Perhaps you’ve had the worst of it…like one of the political prisoners spending decades in a North Korean gulag…even to that extreme, what is 50 years of pain and struggle compared to eternity?  Nothing.

Maybe you are exactly right.  You can make the best of this life and ALSO have an amazing view to the excellent one that is coming.
How do you know that there is an excellent one coming?
First, by God’s presence inside me.
Second, we are surrounded by physical evidence and personal testimony.  The atheists see much of the same earthly evidence I do, and interpret it as nothing.  We see according to what is in our heart.

And If I am right, how can I make the best of this life with all this god-sanctioned suffering?
Put aside all religious/moral laws, rules, advice, knowledge…and believe in Him.  He will show you the rest.

Emotional pleading is the tie.  Without appealing to our emotions, religion has no power, no pull.  Think of all those Christians watching Gibson's Passion of the Christ - not a dry eye in the house.  That movie was a religious experience because of the emotional tie.  Failing that, it would be just another slasher movie.
This statement is indicative of the faith you used to have.  Emotions can embellish any human thinking or acitivity.  My eyes were dry watching Gibson’s movie.  It was a non-spiritual, dramatic movie, and didn’t impress me.  Are emotions what drew you to Christianity for all those years?  Correct me if I am wrong.  But if it was just an emotional experience for you, you never knew Him.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 07, 2009, 11:16:01 AM
God, an omniscient omnipotent being, can't do that without suffering?

Of course He can and does.

If god can do it without suffering, why do it with suffering?

Quote
 Suffering is one of the many ways.  You see suffering as this horrible, bloodthirsty activity.  I see it as the firm guidance of God – used temporarily and as needed.  Perhaps you’ve had the worst of it…like one of the political prisoners spending decades in a North Korean gulag…even to that extreme,

This statement is a misrepresentation of my position.  

Suffering is antithetical to a human norm, god is supposedly an omnipotent/omniscient being capable accomplishing anything.  The question is asked of you as to why there is suffering in the world which is really just a greater extrapolation of the question of evil.  Your answer is to claim a greater purpose for the suffering.  However, if god can do it without suffering then suffering is essentially irrelevant and becomes a meaningless/valueless qualifier as an excuse to do something.

It brings us right back to the problem that god is ( if it exists ) entirely antithetical to what we often describe as 'good'.  Philosophically you rely upon the idea that god is good, but in the context of that description god in itself is in contradiction.  Your god is inescapably maleovalent if it allows suffering to occur while has the ability to accomplish its end goal without suffering.  Your god is also inescapably inefficient, taking actions that serve no purpose and have no meaning to the ultimate goal it achieves.

Quote
what is 50 years of pain and struggle compared to eternity?  Nothing.

It is irrelevant, your using one supernatural claim to justify another supernatural claim.  The only limitation to what your claim is, is the ability for you to just make it up on the fly.  The philosophical and logical implications are addressed above, in that if you accept god can do it without suffering then you accept that god is essentially evil in context to the human experience through contradiction and gods actions are inefficient/meaningless.  Life would be as meaningless as the purpose of suffering to the primary goal.

James, to be frank, you are to busy trying to justify a belief that is philosophically dimwitted.  You are making ANY absurd rationalization that you can possible put up, no matter how much deeper it leads you into the ridiculous nature of what you're ultimately claiming.  You make NO intellectual attempt to justify what you are claim or even deal with the ramifications of what comes up afterwards.  The only reason you would do any of this nonsense is because you are emotionally dependent upon believing in something to the point of delusion.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 07, 2009, 11:52:43 AM
How do you know that there is an excellent one coming?
First, by God’s presence inside me.
Second, we are surrounded by physical evidence and personal testimony.  The atheists see much of the same earthly evidence I do, and interpret it as nothing.  We see according to what is in our heart.
First:  I used to say the same thing:  "I know, that I know, that I know."  But knowing is far different than believing.  If you are going to be honest with yourself you must admit that no one knows what happens after you die.  You believe that there is an excellent life coming after this one but you simply cannot know.  Even if you believe you feel God's presence inside you, you still cannot know for certain that there is another life coming - you can only believe.  (You know, the whole "faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen" thing.)  Faith is not knowing, only believing.
Second:  I see no physical evidence whatsover nor personal testimony that proves to me that there is life after death.  What physical evidence that points to an afterlife am I missing?  Also, I would really like to talk to this person who has given his personal testimony that there is life after death.  I understand that you believe, as further evidenced by your statement that you "see according to what is in your heart."  But there is no physical evidence nor personal testimony to back up your belief.  So you really can't say you know.  And BTW, I am not an athiest.


EDIT:  spelling
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: screwtape on July 07, 2009, 11:59:31 AM
God uses physical suffering in an attempt to point us towards far bigger and better things than the few decades we are on this earth. 
Hi, james456.  Sorry to butt in.  Why do you suppose an omnipotent being needs to use physical suffering (as well as emotional suffering) to point us toward bigger and better things?   
He doesn’t ‘need’ to do anything.  It is one of many ways to point us.  We were meant to be spiritual creatures like Him, and therefore physical and emotional suffering are not the terror you make them out to be.  They become a terror when we refuse to acknowledge our creator.

That does not answer the question, james.  What is the extent of your experience with physical and emotional suffering?  I think sometimes it is quite easy for comfortable westerners like myself to dismiss those things are mere trivialities.

The key point here is that for an omnipotent being, there are literally an infinite number of other ways to get the job done, none of which include suffering.  For an omnipotent being, there are no obstacles.  So why go the sadistic route?
“Sadistic” implies that God enjoys seeing us suffer.  It also implies that physical/emotional/mental suffering is the worst thing you can do to someone.  I contend that killing/scoffing at the human spirit is the worst thing you can do.  Suffering is just one of many things to deal with.  I had a good friend for years whose legs were crippled, but his spirit was so strong that it didn’t phase him.  He climbed mountains, went white-water rafting, had a big social life, and wasn’t phased by his condition.  A human spirit connected with God is bigger than anything life throws at it.

This also does not answer the question.  I am pretty sure your crippled friend was indeed "phased".

That does not work for me on several levels.  For one, an omnipotent being does not attempt.  It is like Yoda - it does or it does not.  There is no try.
I enjoyed Yoda as well, but please don’t compare George Lucas’ animated puppet to the living God.

Do not be so sensitive.  If god has a problem with it, it can take it up with me itself.  In your indignation you did not address the point.

Secondly, why would it attempt?  An omniscient being would know in advance whether its attempt would succeed or fail.  And if it is going to fail, then it is causing completely needless suffering.
Interesting how you turn the blame around to God.  The suffering becomes needless and pointless only when we reject Him in the midst of it.  It is our fault and not His.  God could force us to obey – use his omnipotent power on us – but that isn’t the way He works in most cases.  And yes, He knows in advance what the outcome will be.  He will use the record of his efforts one day as evidence that He was trying to reach you.  He could force everything to happen like puppets on a string, but He’s looking for more interaction than that.

This too sidesteps the question.  Maybe you misunderstood.  When I said "it fails", I meant the attempt fails. Whether you want to attribute the failure to god or the suffering person, that is up to you.  If the attempt fails and god knows it will fail, then it was pointless torture.  For god to keep score and later say "well, I broke your leg and killed your kids in a car accident, but you just didn't get it," seems rather unjust.  And as I said earlier, which you did not address, for an omnipotent being, there are an infinite number of other ways to get the job done.

Please do not waste my time with non-answers.  I find it rude.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 07, 2009, 12:13:43 PM
And If I am right, how can I make the best of this life with all this god-sanctioned suffering?

Put aside all religious/moral laws, rules, advice, knowledge…and believe in Him.  He will show you the rest.

Oh what a tangled web we weave when we try to explain what we believe!  Pay close attention to this.  

If I put aside all religious/moral laws . . . and believe in God . . . He will show me the rest.
If I put aside all rules . . . and believe in God . . . He will show me the rest.
If I put aside any advice or knowledge I may have gained . . . and believe in God . . . He will show me the rest.

God has no problem showing me how to make the best of this life.  He will show me Himself, all I have to do is believe in Him.
Yet when it comes to showing me why I break out in hives . . . God has a problem showing me this.  And remember, I am not asking God to heal me of the allergy.  Simply "show" me what causes it, as you say He is ready to do.  You are talking out of both sides of your mouth, my friend.

Your proposed answer brings us all the way back to the origin of this thread:
As I reached middle age, I began to realize that I never needed a miracle.  I didn't need God to change my DNA or cure some problem within, or change my chemical makeup.  I didn't need God to give me eyesight, or cleanse leprosy, or regenerate a missing limb. All this lonely teenager needed was his loving God to tell one of his Servants to give him a simple word:  “Don't take aspirin.”

This loving God could have totally changed my life with those three words.  He didn't need to walk on water to get my attention.  All He needed to do was give me a dream, speak in my ear, tell somebody else.  But just get those three words to me.  But He didn't. 

If God is so willing to “show me the rest” why wasn't He willing back then?

EDIT:  Added Quote
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Asmoday on July 07, 2009, 04:28:27 PM
I’ve had a personal friend that was raped, described it to me in vivid detail, and it has made her a better person.  
Have you even thought a second about what you wrote here?

So god uses rape to build character?

You, dear sir, are one very sick puppy.

Quote
I am also well aware of countless victims that are emotionally scarred by their crimes for life.
So what happened in these cases? God tried to "improve" them and somehow f*cked up (even though he is omniscient and already knew how the whole thing would end)?

Oh, but wait, I guess it´s not god´s but the victim´s fault, right?
The only reason they have not become a better person after being raped, is that they lost or never had faith in god (the guy who planned for them to get raped in the first place).

Quote
Notice I’ve bolded your use of the words, ‘only’ and ‘just,’ and that these words did not appear in my post.
Well, if you´d look at your post, you´ll see that the only thing you attribute rape, pillaging and genocide with is indeed physical suffering.
So either you really meant that these things "just" create physical suffering and now being called on it you are trying to paddle back or you did not mean it that way but you completely failed at writing down what you meant.

I mean, if you look at this for example:
Quote
[rapes] - physical suffering
Tell me and everybody else here how there is any way not to think, that for you rape causes only suffering and nothing else.

Quote
And notice that the common atheist/agnostic complaints against God and the Bible always include some type of physical suffering, indicative of their emphasis on all things physical.
Uhm...no?

There is no emphasis on all things physical. Look around and you will see, that atheists and agnostics mention often enough that god likes to play quite a few really sick mindgames and is in no way confined to causing only physical suffering.
The reason that physical suffering is mentioned more often is just the same as to why amputees are used in the title of this website. For most people a cut-off arm is easier to understand than what it means if a person has a severe mental trauma.

A great number of theists coming here don´t give a rat´s ass about "some little mental suffering." If you don´t bring out the big guns like a little genocide followed by rape ordered by god, those "God is goodness incarnate"-christians won´t even budge an inch.

Quote
God uses physical suffering in an attempt to point us towards far bigger and better things than the few decades we are on this earth.
And for an omnipotent, omniscient god, who is also supposed to be all-loving, the way to "point" us in the right direction is by causing suffering through rape, pillaging and genocide?
Do have any idea what it means to be "all-loving"?

(Of course you´re free to tell me, that god is not all-loving. That would get you out of this dilemma, but I´m quite sure you are well aware of the can of worms that would open.  :))

Quote
There is tremendous hope for all those with a less-than-perfect life:  rape victims, ignored children, unjust imprisonment, lonely, deformed, abandoned…it’s not a matter of not being a “wussie.”  It’s a matter of getting to know your creator and seeing far more than this physical world.
I must quote myself here: Have you even thought a second about what you wrote here?

Let´s think about it for a moment:

Hidden behind the curtain we have god, who loves us very much. To point us into the right direction, god uses all kinds of ways (among others suffering through rape, pillaging and genocide). So he ruins our lives to make his point, that after hitting rock bottom it can only get better and that by coming to him (who is responsible for the whole sh*t you´re going through)  you will feel better. Sometimes though some of us don´t really get the message, lose their faith (if they even had any to begin with) and become mental wrecks for the rest of their lives or just kill themselves, all of which causes god to roast them in hell for all eternity.

Gee, thanks a bunch, heavenly father! Why, I love you, too. &)

Do I really have to point out, how grotesque it is what you describe, James?

In a little analogy you could describe your god as a doctor, who tells people to use the stairs, then makes them trip at some point down the way (to some he gives a push even before they made their first step), and after they go 'splat' at the end of the stairs, he shouts from the top of the stairs "Don´t worry! Believe in me and I´ll fix you up later!"
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Positiveaob on July 07, 2009, 07:43:58 PM
I understand the aspirin comment.  I just think you're being unreasonable.  I'm allergic to coconut...I found that out the hard way.  Never once did it even cross my mind to blame God for not giving me a handbook with all of my earthly weakness laid out and numbered.

It doesnt seem to be sinking in with you.  NONE OF US BLAME GOD.  WE DONT BELIEVE HE EXISTS!!!

Funny, when I turned my back on god and became an atheist I never experienced anything horrible like that. (I should note that I was very deeply devoted to god)

Same here.  Funny how god seems to have decided that YOU were deserving of some direct proof but not us.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Onesimus on July 08, 2009, 12:01:47 PM
“Sadistic” implies that God enjoys seeing us suffer.  It also implies that physical/emotional/mental suffering is the worst thing you can do to someone.  I contend that killing/scoffing at the human spirit is the worst thing you can do. 

You have no realistic, rational grasp on the problem of theodicy if that's honestly what you think.  Your contention is a slap in the face to billions who have suffered and died on this planet for no reasons which could ever be redemptive... whether they were thrown into ovens to be burned to death by oppressive governments, died of starvation and unsafe drinking water, or simply wrecked their cars on the way to their high school prom. 

You really need to stop trying to see your concept of God as good.  It's not good.  It's the opposite of good... however you might define that concept.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 09, 2009, 07:41:54 AM
Where did James go?  Gone too soon.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: james456 on July 09, 2009, 09:01:08 AM
Where did James go?  Gone too soon.
Not gone.  Had business to take care of.  I'll have some replies shortly.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: james456 on July 09, 2009, 04:03:04 PM
But knowing is far different than believing.  If you are going to be honest with yourself you must admit that no one knows what happens after you die.  You believe that there is an excellent life coming after this one but you simply cannot know.  Even if you believe you feel God's presence inside you, you still cannot know for certain that there is another life coming - you can only believe.  (You know, the whole "faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen" thing.)  Faith is not knowing, only believing.
The tone of this statement implies that knowledge is greater than true faith (as opposed to wishful thinking).  It implies that the human brain – with what it knows and understands – is greater than the human spirit.  I can’t subscribe to that.  It’s a small way to look at reality as I see it.

“Blessed is he who has not seen, and has believed.”

I see no physical evidence whatsover nor personal testimony that proves to me that there is life after death.
Have you looked into the abundant literature on near-death-experiences?  or deathbed visions?  Neuroscience has trashed them all as products of a stressed/damaged/dying brain.  Medical doctors and psychologists say they aren’t sure.  No medical explanation covers all the elements, especially where the patient learned information that he had no way to access.  There are 1000s of cases available, and I have found a truth running through them.  If you have already thrown them all out as hallucinations/delusions, then you are entering the land of belief.

I also have numerous supernatural experiences of my own to go on.  They are a normal, non-extraordinary part of my life.  I could provide you with empirical evidence if you could run around with me for a month or two as they occur, but cannot provide you with publicly available evidence.  These supernatural events are a help to me, but do you no good if you demand public empirical evidence.  I sympathize with all on this forum who don’t believe in the supernatural if it hasn’t ever touched their lives.  It’s possible that it has, and that they were too busy scoffing/doubting at everything to see it.  I have examined the evidence, weeded out the chaff, and found the remainder very convincing.

And BTW, I am not an athiest.
Good.  That means you are actively considering other viewpoints.

------------

….more posts to come from me on this thread



Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 09, 2009, 04:07:37 PM
And BTW, I am not an athiest.
Good.  That means you are actively considering other viewpoints.

How amazingly arrogant.  James, being an atheist by definition doesn't mean you no longer consider another view point anymore then it would mean that if you called yourself a theist.  ( unless you're admitting that you are NOT open minded. )

This is infantile James.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 09, 2009, 04:34:29 PM
If you have already thrown them all out as hallucinations/delusions, then you are entering the land of belief.

That's right, if someone doesn't accept James on his every baseless assertion then they are wrong - always.

Quote
   but do you no good if you demand public empirical evidence.

Brilliant, redefine empirical evidence by using qualifiers that don't change the meaning of empirical evidence.  Imply that anyone that wants something other then 'your' empirical evidence is wrong - always.

Quote
...and that they were too busy scoffing/doubting at everything to see it.

Sure James the only reason it never happens to anyone else in the same way save yourself.. is that they are doubting.. scoffing and clearly wrong..always.

Quote
I have examined the evidence, weeded out the chaff, and found the remainder very convincing.

Redefined evidence, rely upon baseless assertions, and always immediately define anyone that doesn't accept your every absurd claim as automatically being afflicted by some ignorance.

This is really great intellectual objective methodology you have going here.  Top-notch research.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 09, 2009, 06:44:03 PM
How do you know that there is an excellent one coming?
First, by God’s presence inside me.
Second, we are surrounded by physical evidence and personal testimony.  The atheists see much of the same earthly evidence I do, and interpret it as nothing.  We see according to what is in our heart.
First:  I used to say the same thing:  "I know, that I know, that I know."  But knowing is far different than believing.  If you are going to be honest with yourself you must admit that no one knows what happens after you die.  You believe that there is an excellent life coming after this one but you simply cannot know.  Even if you believe you feel God's presence inside you, you still cannot know for certain that there is another life coming - you can only believe.  (You know, the whole "faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen" thing.)  Faith is not knowing, only believing.

But knowing is far different than believing.  If you are going to be honest with yourself you must admit that no one knows what happens after you die.  You believe that there is an excellent life coming after this one but you simply cannot know.  Even if you believe you feel God's presence inside you, you still cannot know for certain that there is another life coming - you can only believe.  (You know, the whole "faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen" thing.)  Faith is not knowing, only believing.
The tone of this statement implies that knowledge is greater than true faith (as opposed to wishful thinking).  It implies that the human brain – with what it knows and understands – is greater than the human spirit.  I can’t subscribe to that.  It’s a small way to look at reality as I see it.

“Blessed is he who has not seen, and has believed.”
Nice dodge, James.  But you didn't address anything.

You said:  “I know there is an afterlife.  I know because God is inside me and we are surrounded by physical evidence and personal testimony

I said:  "Since you know, and have proof, show me."

You didn't.  You gave a discussion about the human brain verses the human spirit, you offered deathbed visions and near death experiences in literature, and you gave a diatribe about empirical evidence.

But you did not offer what you said you had:
Quote
How do you know that there is an excellent one coming?
First, by God’s presence inside me.
Second, we are surrounded by physical evidence and personal testimony.



If you know, and you have physical evidence and personal testimony of an afterlife, where is it?  Or maybe you can just agree that you don't know, but only believe.  It really is OK to say that you don't know for certain.  It's fine if you believe like crazy, but no one can know what happens after you die, right?


And BTW, I am not an athiest.
Good.  That means you are actively considering other viewpoints.

I am not an atheist, I am a rationalist who chooses not to believe in what is not believable.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 09, 2009, 06:56:15 PM
James, this discussion about the afterlife may be interesting but I am really immensely more interested in your reply to post #96.  I believe it speaks to the very heart of the origin of this thread.  

Can you reconcile for me why God is ready to “show me” how to have a better life today but was unwilling to “show me” when it really counted.  You see, my life is really good right now.  But when I needed God, in my deepest darkest hour, at a very low place in my life, . . . well, I eagerly await your reply.

EDIT:  spelling
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: screwtape on July 10, 2009, 07:23:05 AM
“Blessed is he who has not seen, and has believed.”

I find the xians like to trot this one out more than they should.  It usually makes an appearance toward the end of a discussion that was about evidence for god.  It usually starts out with them making bold but vague claims about the "abundant" evidence for god.  Then their claims are shot full of holes and they are backed into a corner.  The abundance becomes a dearth.  They whip this out when they are out of ammo.  They use it as a "Get Out of Jail" card.  "Hey man, I don't need no stinkin' evidence.  Evidence is for pussies.  I have faith."  Yeah, great way to live your life.

James, if you are going to just believe, just have faith, then why bother with all this justification and rationalization?  Why present "evidence" and explanations?  Why do you tell us about your "research"? 

I can tell you why - you were born in the post Enlightenment modern age.  You know how irrational, how wrong it is to hold a belief for which there is no support.  So you seek a basis for your bronze age superstitions in a rational way.  The problem is, you cannot.  So you have to go the route of our medieval ancestors and present embarrassing bible quotes such as the one above.

I've yet to run into any xians who do not in some way try to rationalize, justify and explain.  None of them have said, "I just have faith."  Well, that is not entirely true.  I did run into one woman here who said that, but she was brain damaged.  Literally.  You are saying that faith is good enough, but your actions betray that idea.  You say it, but only as a last resort.  You could have said this at the very beginning of the conversation, but you did not.  So I am inclined to think you do not actually believe it.  It is just a convenient alibi for you. 

I have yet to find out why faith, or belief without seeing, is a virtue or something worthy of blessing.  I have asked time and again and it just gets ignored.

Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: james456 on July 10, 2009, 01:32:44 PM
James, this discussion about the afterlife may be interesting but I am really immensely more interested in your reply to post #96.  I believe it speaks to the very heart of the origin of this thread.  

Plz be patient.  I'll reply to that as time allows.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: james456 on July 11, 2009, 09:51:03 AM
Why do you suppose an omnipotent being needs to use physical suffering (as well as emotional suffering) to point us toward bigger and better things?   
He doesn’t ‘need’ to do anything.  It is one of many ways to point us…

What is the extent of your experience with physical and emotional suffering?  I think sometimes it is quite easy for comfortable westerners like myself to dismiss those things are mere trivialities.
I am not a comfortable westerner.  I have experienced tremendous decades-long suffering.  Why does God use suffering?  Because it drives people to seek the truth and/or become more spiritual.  When your environment, friends, family, peace of mind, and hope to pull-yourself-out-of-it is all crumbling around you, you are left with 3 choices:


Usually (1) continues to some extent at the choice of the person, but with (3) dawning on them gradually over time.  Some people get to (3) quickly.  Suffering strips away our physical, mental, and emotional shells and leaves our spirit standing bare.  The benefit may hit you in the midst of it, or may not be immediately obvious.

…there are literally an infinite number of other ways to get the job done…So why go the sadistic route?
“Sadistic” implies that God enjoys seeing us suffer.  It also implies that physical/emotional/mental suffering is the worst thing you can do to someone.  I contend that killing/scoffing at the human spirit is the worst thing you can do.  Suffering is just one of many things to deal with.  I had a good friend for years whose legs were crippled, but his spirit was so strong that it didn’t phase him.  He climbed mountains, went white-water rafting, had a big social life, and wasn’t phased by his condition.

This also does not answer the question.  I am pretty sure your crippled friend was indeed "phased".
Yes, phased for the better.  Or did you know him, and can tell me differently?
The “route” is not sadistic if:
#1 We were created to be spiritual creatures in the first place, and our physical bodies and the physical world we live in are of much smaller importance.  I know you don’t believe this, but it is something I have clearly seen.
#2 The suffering has a beneficial goal.  The suffering is an investment in a better future.

Why use suffering?  Because it works in hard cases or where God wants to bring someone to a higher level of spirituality.  The reward for that suffering may not come in this life, or it may come and we don’t see it, because we are focused on earthly matters.

You will agree with me that most people do not experience horrible suffering in their lives.  The Lord does not enjoy seeing us suffer, and uses it sparingly and as necessary.  It is not as bad as you make it out to be when this life is only a vapor compared to the length of our entire existence.  Again, I know you don’t believe that, but try to consider that perspective for a second.

That does not work for me on several levels.  For one, an omnipotent being does not attempt.  It is like Yoda - it does or it does not.  There is no try.
I enjoyed Yoda as well, but please don’t compare George Lucas’ animated puppet to the living God.

Do not be so sensitive.  If god has a problem with it, it can take it up with me itself.  In your indignation you did not address the point.
The philosophy of Yoda is black and white: Do or do not.  No try.  God does not operate that way.  He is not like a light switch: on or off.  He looks for much more interaction than that.  That is why he is compared to “living water” in the Bible.  Look at the frothing, gurgling water at the base of a waterfall.  That is a picture of how God often works.

Secondly, why would it attempt?  An omniscient being would know in advance whether its attempt would succeed or fail.  And if it is going to fail, then it is causing completely needless suffering.
…The suffering becomes needless and pointless only when we reject Him in the midst of it…God could force us to obey – use his omnipotent power on us – but that isn’t the way He works in most cases.  And yes, He knows in advance what the outcome will be.  He will use the record of his efforts one day as evidence that He was trying to reach you.

When I said "it fails", I meant the attempt fails. Whether you want to attribute the failure to god or the suffering person, that is up to you.  If the attempt fails and god knows it will fail, then it was pointless torture.

This seems to be your main question.  Why would God put someone thru suffering if He knows it won’t help?  This is a hypothetical question, implying that pointless torture does indeed happen.  Please share with me specific, personal, detailed, first-hand examples where you know that someone’s suffering did not benefit them.  We can take them on a case by case basis.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: none on July 11, 2009, 01:37:29 PM
how does suffering prove god's existence?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 11, 2009, 03:58:40 PM
This seems to be your main question.  Why would God put someone thru suffering if He knows it won’t help?  This is a hypothetical question, implying that pointless torture does indeed happen.  Please share with me specific, personal, detailed, first-hand examples where you know that someone’s suffering did not benefit them.  We can take them on a case by case basis.

Why move on when we can't even get you to acknowledge or respond to 99% of what is discussed.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Agga on July 11, 2009, 05:05:28 PM
Why does God use suffering?  Because it drives people to seek the truth and/or become more spiritual.  When your environment, friends, family, peace of mind, and hope to pull-yourself-out-of-it is all crumbling around you, you are left with 3 choices:

  • 1) remain in your “living hell”
  • 2) die
  • 3) earnestly seek something greater than the physical world – God and the spiritual realm He dwells in

What about option 4?

4) Get out of the living hell and rebuild without looking for god, without dying and without staying in the hell.


Are you flatly saying that option 4 does not exist in ths reality, James?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Mar on July 11, 2009, 05:36:28 PM
james456, I don't know where you live, but suffering sometimes drives people f**kING MAD. Even people who seek the truth, might find truth in A RELIGION THAT IS NOT CHRISTIANITY. Does that make ANY sense? How is that helpful for the Christian God? How?

This "Suffering works" argument is incredibly stupid. Forcing someone to suffer (EVERYTHING is part of God's plan, is it not?) so that they can "find" you is ABUSIVE BEHAVIOR end of discussion. Suffering IS as bad as we make it out to be. You know what, it's as bad as *I* make it out to be because I have never had the terrible experiences that a lot of people have had and I cannot even IMAGINE what these people have went through no matter how hard I try. Do NOT speak light of experiences YOU HAVE NOT HAD. Do NOT insult people and act like their experiences are "nothing." If you have even HALF of a heart don't even go there because that is a sick area to visit.

SUFFERING BENEFITS NO ONE. Now, humans LEARN to cope with s**tty life experiences because they HAVE to in order to keep their minds from shutting down. THAT is how humans survive and that has NOTHING to do with your absentee parent God. Nothing. And here's a story for you since you obviously live on a spaceship: Some people have snapped under the pressure and KILLED themselves and/or others. Some people have developed mental disorders. Yeah, you can find truth when you can't even f**king DRESS YOURSELF because your brain is so f**king scrambled. Yeah, you can find truth when your brain is making you hear voices. And it's even easier when you're homeless, starving, and lacking medication. Yeah. Don't be a dumbass.  

I am still absolutely flabbergasted that you think your friend's rape benefited him/her. IT WAS NOT NECESSARY. AT ALL. Would you say this to your son or daughter if they were raped? Seriously. It's embarrassing how LOW you will stoop to appease your "God". I hope you find a beating heart and grow out of your phase someday. Please, please, PLEASE be under the age of 18 and not in charge of any children....

You know what, I'll  post some links that show how suffering wasn't beneficial for some people since you think these people don't exist:

A teen girl kills herself after being sexually harassed: http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/29546030/ns/parenting_and_family/
A man is killed by his lover and she kills herself: http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/07/08/mcnair.shooting/
A teen girl is raped and commits suicide: http://www.mirror.co.uk/life-style/real-life/2008/08/27/mother-of-raped-suicide-girl-pays-tribute-to-her-poet-daughter-115875-20712751/
A girl is raped by her own father: http://www.thelocal.se/5858/20061220/

Now get out of your fantasy world and STFU about how awesome and beneficial suffering is. Oh, I forgot. It's beneficial because they are now in Heaven! See? It makes SO much sense!  >:(

And you say atheists only think about physical/materialistic/science-y things.  &) I can safely say that I am more compassionate than you are.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Onesimus on July 11, 2009, 07:02:16 PM
Mar, as much as I agree with you, I don't think we're gonna get through to this guy.  He actually said...

You will agree with me that most people do not experience horrible suffering in their lives. 

This level of denial of the real problems of our past and present world is, I'm afraid, impenetrable for the moment.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 11, 2009, 09:01:39 PM
You will agree with me that most people do not experience horrible suffering in their lives. 

Here is an educational tool we use to assist in teaching social consciousness to children. It would benefit you.

http://www.miniature-earth.com/ (http://www.miniature-earth.com/)
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Timtheskeptic on July 11, 2009, 09:32:28 PM
Why does God use suffering?  Because it drives people to seek the truth and/or become more spiritual.  When your environment, friends, family, peace of mind, and hope to pull-yourself-out-of-it is all crumbling around you, you are left with 3 choices:

  • 1) remain in your “living hell”
  • 2) die
  • 3) earnestly seek something greater than the physical world – God and the spiritual realm He dwells in

What about option 4?

4) Get out of the living hell and rebuild without looking for god, without dying and without staying in the hell.


Are you flatly saying that option 4 does not exist in ths reality, James?

I would definetly go for choice number 4 indeed!
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Timtheskeptic on July 11, 2009, 09:36:05 PM
james456, I don't know where you live, but suffering sometimes drives people f**kING MAD. Even people who seek the truth, might find truth in A RELIGION THAT IS NOT CHRISTIANITY. Does that make ANY sense? How is that helpful for the Christian God? How?

This "Suffering works" argument is incredibly stupid. Forcing someone to suffer (EVERYTHING is part of God's plan, is it not?) so that they can "find" you is ABUSIVE BEHAVIOR end of discussion. Suffering IS as bad as we make it out to be. You know what, it's as bad as *I* make it out to be because I have never had the terrible experiences that a lot of people have had and I cannot even IMAGINE what these people have went through no matter how hard I try. Do NOT speak light of experiences YOU HAVE NOT HAD. Do NOT insult people and act like their experiences are "nothing." If you have even HALF of a heart don't even go there because that is a sick area to visit.

SUFFERING BENEFITS NO ONE. Now, humans LEARN to cope with s**tty life experiences because they HAVE to in order to keep their minds from shutting down. THAT is how humans survive and that has NOTHING to do with your absentee parent God. Nothing. And here's a story for you since you obviously live on a spaceship: Some people have snapped under the pressure and KILLED themselves and/or others. Some people have developed mental disorders. Yeah, you can find truth when you can't even f**king DRESS YOURSELF because your brain is so f**king scrambled. Yeah, you can find truth when your brain is making you hear voices. And it's even easier when you're homeless, starving, and lacking medication. Yeah. Don't be a dumbass.  

I am still absolutely flabbergasted that you think your friend's rape benefited him/her. IT WAS NOT NECESSARY. AT ALL. Would you say this to your son or daughter if they were raped? Seriously. It's embarrassing how LOW you will stoop to appease your "God". I hope you find a beating heart and grow out of your phase someday. Please, please, PLEASE be under the age of 18 and not in charge of any children....

You know what, I'll  post some links that show how suffering wasn't beneficial for some people since you think these people don't exist:

A teen girl kills herself after being sexually harassed: http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/29546030/ns/parenting_and_family/
A man is killed by his lover and she kills herself: http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/07/08/mcnair.shooting/
A teen girl is raped and commits suicide: http://www.mirror.co.uk/life-style/real-life/2008/08/27/mother-of-raped-suicide-girl-pays-tribute-to-her-poet-daughter-115875-20712751/
A girl is raped by her own father: http://www.thelocal.se/5858/20061220/

Now get out of your fantasy world and STFU about how awesome and beneficial suffering is. Oh, I forgot. It's beneficial because they are now in Heaven! See? It makes SO much sense!  >:(

And you say atheists only think about physical/materialistic/science-y things.  &) I can safely say that I am more compassionate than you are.

^   ^
  W         Meow! That was wonderful Mar. Superb post. Mew.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Timtheskeptic on July 11, 2009, 09:42:35 PM
As according to Mar's post, i couldn't agree more. I've heard the repulsive words about "God's will." God tests us or some claptrap. None of those are comforting. And I absolutely am disgusted that James would make light out of someone's suffering!

"God was just testing your faith."
"You're living in sin."
As VenomFangX had said, "Amputees do not deserve their limbs, they've sinned."

Who who are raped, people who had miscarriages, people who were murdered, people who were molested as a child or are being molested as a child, people being abused in every way, and so on. None of those are "God's will." none of those are beneficial at all! In fact, when things like those happen, we must always care for one another and not tell them B.S lies and say, "Hey come to God's side."

Despicable!
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Mar on July 11, 2009, 10:01:31 PM
Onesiumus, thanks. I lol'ed at the sheer stupidity. It hurts so good...

Ambassador Pony, GREAT link. I love it. Hopefully, john456 can comprehend such a simple video.

Tim, thanks. :D I agree 100%. I am sick and tired of these inhuman nutbars. How the hell do you have zero compassion for human beings? Seriously.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: CutePuppy on July 12, 2009, 06:09:10 AM
I have to agree with the others, this one is a real gem:

Why does God use suffering?  Because it drives people to seek the truth and/or become more spiritual.  When your environment, friends, family, peace of mind, and hope to pull-yourself-out-of-it is all crumbling around you, you are left with 3 choices:

  • 1) remain in your “living hell”
  • 2) die, and burn in hell for eternity for not following a religion/ accepting biblegod/jc
  • 3) earnestly seek something greater than the physical world – God and the spiritual realm He dwells in

Fixed that #2 for ya. Don't you just love it when a god who loves us so much wants us to "love" him so much that he tortures us in an attempt to do it? Instead of, say, appearing before us, he tortures us to break our minds and finally welcome his "love" out of despair? I'm loving this "freewill" thing.

"You know what? If I, biblegod, appeared before you, I'd take away your free will to love and believe in me, and I/we surely don't want to do that. I want your love for and acceptance of me to be real, out of your own free will. So instead, I will torture you and take everything away from you till you accept me......or die and rot in hell for eternity. Obviously, I prefer that you go for the first option, eventually. However, if you decide not to love me after I've tortured you and made you suffer for so long while refusing to appear before you, well that's obviously your own damn fault. Have fun in hell! P.S. Love, always - biblegod."

I don't want to appear as a "militant atheist" who doesn't listen to reason and dismisses arguments out of the blue, but I think this guy needs a straitjacket before he does something very harmful to others, if he hasn't already.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 12, 2009, 10:11:30 AM
And If I am right, how can I make the best of this life with all this god-sanctioned suffering?

Put aside all religious/moral laws, rules, advice, knowledge…and believe in Him.  He will show you the rest.

Oh what a tangled web we weave when we try to explain what we believe!  Pay close attention to this.  

If I put aside all religious/moral laws . . . and believe in God . . . He will show me the rest.
If I put aside all rules . . . and believe in God . . . He will show me the rest.
If I put aside any advice or knowledge I may have gained . . . and believe in God . . . He will show me the rest.

God has no problem showing me how to make the best of this life.  He will show me Himself, all I have to do is believe in Him.
Yet when it comes to showing me why I break out in hives . . . God has a problem showing me this.  And remember, I am not asking God to heal me of the allergy.  Simply "show" me what causes it, as you say He is ready to do.  You are talking out of both sides of your mouth, my friend.

Your proposed answer brings us all the way back to the origin of this thread:
As I reached middle age, I began to realize that I never needed a miracle.  I didn't need God to change my DNA or cure some problem within, or change my chemical makeup.  I didn't need God to give me eyesight, or cleanse leprosy, or regenerate a missing limb. All this lonely teenager needed was his loving God to tell one of his Servants to give him a simple word:  “Don't take aspirin.”

This loving God could have totally changed my life with those three words.  He didn't need to walk on water to get my attention.  All He needed to do was give me a dream, speak in my ear, tell somebody else.  But just get those three words to me.  But He didn't. 

If God is so willing to “show me the rest” why wasn't He willing back then?

EDIT:  Added Quote

James is ducking my question.  I believe his only answer can be silence.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Agga on July 12, 2009, 12:11:17 PM
You seem to forget that you're talking to an evangelist about a sticking point in their agenda argument.

And you expect answers?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: johnab on July 12, 2009, 04:28:43 PM
Howdy all, Just giving a quick hay before I join in.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: johnab on July 12, 2009, 06:06:36 PM
     Do any of you agree that there are two main forces in our lives that promote change (good and bad change)?
     
     One would be pain in some form that may push us to change....

     the other would be pleasure that draws us in a direction to change.....
   
     otherwise, what would move us?

     Lonestar, how would you say that your difficulties have changed your direction?

     What would you have done differently without your allergy?

    If there is a God do you expect to be rewarded when your going in the wrong direction?



     we may not have the power over what comes against us as far as a negative or positive force but don't we have controle over how it effects us?

Mar made the point of negative responce from difficult times but I'm sure there was a time in his life that he made a positive responce from a difficult time.
    a simple stubbing of a toe keeps you watching your step etc.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 12, 2009, 06:22:15 PM
     Do any of you agree that there are two main forces in our lives that promote change (good and bad change)?
     
     One would be pain in some form that may push us to change....

     the other would be pleasure that draws us in a direction to change.....
   
     otherwise, what would move us?

Fact. Reason.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Deus ex Machina on July 12, 2009, 06:27:50 PM
Do any of you agree that there are two main forces in our lives that promote change (good and bad change)?

No. That's oversimplistic, binary thinking. There are many forces that promote change; some might be intersubjectively described as 'good', others 'bad', others good to some and bad to others, or vice versa... and still others that are neither inherently good nor inherently bad in themselves. To categorize them as just two forces of 'good' and 'bad' displays a breathtaking naïveté that is almost childlike in its oversimplification.

Quote
If there is a God do you expect to be rewarded when your going in the wrong direction?

'Rewarded'? In what respect, exactly?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Mar on July 13, 2009, 03:22:18 AM
johnab, of course I have made good out of bad situations. However, I HAVE to if I don't want to snap. A healthy mind and a healthy environment that I grew up in also helps. A LOT. The problem is that some people DO snap under the pressure. And that means something is wrong with this system. If an all-powerful/all-knowing/all-loving God is behind all of this, then suffering is unnecessary.

And you can't know if you are going in the "wrong direction" if your parent (God) has decided to abandon you. Ever heard of "feral children"? Yeah. Great job, God.

No, life is more complicated than good vs. bad forces. The real world is gray.

Come with some better arguments.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: screwtape on July 13, 2009, 10:36:40 AM
This also does not answer the question.  I am pretty sure your crippled friend was indeed "phased".
Yes, phased for the better.  Or did you know him, and can tell me differently?
The “route” is not sadistic if:
#1 We were created to be spiritual creatures in the first place, and our physical bodies and the physical world we live in are of much smaller importance.  I know you don’t believe this, but it is something I have clearly seen.
#2 The suffering has a beneficial goal.  The suffering is an investment in a better future.

none of that is the point.  As for your gimpy friend, you cannot tell me the loss of the use of his legs did not phase him.  He may have perservered, but I think "unphased" is inaccurate.  I think the whole idea of the physical world being irrelevant is dangerous to the rest of us.

Item 2 is another patently ridiculous and dangerous idea.  I really thing you should seek medical help. You are either a sadist or a massochist.  Possibly both.

Why use suffering?  Because it works in hard cases or where God wants to bring someone to a higher level of spirituality.  The reward for that suffering may not come in this life, or it may come and we don’t see it, because we are focused on earthly matters.

ah, right - to get those hard cases.  Like those all those hard cased in New Orleans or Indonesia.  How about these two hard cases?
(http://www.pestaola.gr/images/kevin_carter_a_vulture_watches_a_starving_child_in_sudan.jpg)
(http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/odds_and_oddities/assets/starving-boy.jpg)
They sure look recalcitrant to me.  The lord must really be trying to get their attention.  yhwh must really love those two sinners. 

And this really does not answer the question.  To a being that is OMNIPOTENT, the use of suffering can only be considered cruel.

You will agree with me that most people do not experience horrible suffering in their lives.  The Lord does not enjoy seeing us suffer, and uses it sparingly and as necessary. 

It is funny.  You say this as if it were a fact.  Yet, this is something that you cannot know.  It is at best something you take on faith.  Why should I believe you?  Can you show me this is true?

It is not as bad as you make it out to be when this life is only a vapor compared to the length of our entire existence.  Again, I know you don’t believe that, but try to consider that perspective for a second.

I am ashamed to say that I did indeed once consider that persepective.  I held that perspective for a number of years.  It is a stupid and bankrupt perspective. 

You say the lord does not enjoy seeing people suffer, but that appears to be something of a tautology.  I have found nothing to indicate that is true.  There is plenty to suggest that if god exists as a literal being, it likes nothing more than human suffering.  In fact, according to many flavors of xian, our default afterlife destination is eternal torment and torture.  That does not exactly fit with a god that hates to see suffering.

The philosophy of Yoda is black and white: Do or do not.  No try.  God does not operate that way.  He is not like a light switch: on or off.  He looks for much more interaction than that.  That is why he is compared to “living water” in the Bible.  Look at the frothing, gurgling water at the base of a waterfall.  That is a picture of how God often works.

Heaven or hell.  Sinner or saved.  Chosen or wicked.  That gurgling sound is you drowning in delusion.  You should study the Force a little more carefully.

This seems to be your main question.  Why would God put someone thru suffering if He knows it won’t help?  This is a hypothetical question, implying that pointless torture does indeed happen.  Please share with me specific, personal, detailed, first-hand examples where you know that someone’s suffering did not benefit them.  We can take them on a case by case basis.

It is hypothetical only in that we are speaking of a hypothetical god.

You are shifting the goal posts, james.  You said god makes people suffer to bring them closer to "him".  Surely you are not suggesting that every suffering person has declared jesus-H to be their lord and savior?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: james456 on July 13, 2009, 11:10:05 AM
James is ducking my question.  I believe his only answer can be silence.
It is unfortunate that you draw conclusions so quickly.  I was responding to my numerous replies in the order posted, and also have other responsibilities besides this forum.

I am really immensely more interested in your reply to post #96.  I believe it speaks to the very heart of the origin of this thread. 

I understand you have suffered, and as one who has also gone thru intense suffering, I sympathize with you.

I have a couple of questions.  During what years of your life did you have these reactions to aspirin?  Between what ages.  How old were you when you realized that aspirin was the problem?

I wonder why, if the solution to your affliction was a simple allergy…why you never made the connection all those years by yourself?  Did you only swell up after taking aspirin?  If so, why were you taking so much aspirin?  Did you get headaches all the time and require painkillers?

Your big question is, “Why didn’t God tell me not to take aspirin.”  I could give you a much more specific answer if I could sit down in front of you and talk with you at length about this matter.  But because I have extremely limited information about you, your life, and what happened, I can only present some possibilities:

I believe you are exactly where you are supposed to be today.  You might not believe that, and could easily write that off as a convenient position for me to take, but I do not say it lightly.  If you are some type of agnostic, stay like that until you are thoroughly convinced otherwise.  However, I hope you have not accepted ‘logic’ as your new guide in life.  It is a good tool, but only one of many.  History is replete with examples of how logical thinking resulted in failure, and ‘illogical’ actions resulted in great progress.

Emotional pleading is the tie.  Without appealing to our emotions, religion has no power, no pull.
...Are emotions what drew you to Christianity for all those years?  Correct me if I am wrong.  But if it was just an emotional experience for you, you never knew Him.
Again I return to your statement about the emotional pull of religion, and ask you to explain more.  Were all your years as a Christian just an emotional experience?  Were you only drawn to God thru your emotions?  If that is the truth, you never met the Holy Spirit.

I knew that He loved me because I had a personal relationship with Him through his Only Son, Jesus Christ.
Could you go into more detail about this relationship?  A healthy relationship usually includes daily two-way communication, and is mutually beneficial, both in the short and long-term.  Did God ever speak to you directly?  This is available to all believers, and I’m not talking about audible voices in your head, your room, or booming proclamations from the clouds.

I never knew when it was going to happen and it practically ruined my teenage years.
Did it ruin your teenage years mainly for social reasons, because of the physical pain involved, or what?  Did it not ruin your life in your 20s or 30s?

Since I believed the Bible, I believed in the power of prayer.
The Bible and prayer are nothing if not used with the Holy Spirit.

Bingo!  I was allergic to aspirin.  Since that day, I have not taken aspirin and my life has completely changed.
Explain in detail how your life has “completely changed.”

This final revelation (among many others) brought me to a crossroads in my life.  I had two choices.  Either God hates me or He is imaginary.
Are these really the ONLY choices you could come up with?  You could see no possible positive benefit from your affliction?  Not on you or anyone else?

If He really existed and loved me, He could have shown me with the tiniest of gestures.
I will restate what you said:
“I expect God to love me in a way I can understand.  My faith in Him is dependent on my ability to understand what He is doing with me.”  This is why atheists don’t believe.  They put their own brain first, and reject God because they don’t understand Him.  Such a puzzle why a 3-pound brain can’t understand a being that created the entire universe just by speaking.

I didn't need a miracle, just a moment.  I never got either and now that I am viewing life through rational eyes I see why.  Not only am I free from all the questions, I am also free from the burden that there might be something wrong with me that would keep a loving God from throwing me a crumb.
You found the relief that you were looking for, and now you are “free” and your life is easier.  Easier isn’t always better.  There is nothing wrong with you, except in your conclusions about how your life has unfolded.  God would not have put you thru all of that if it was truly just a matter of “throwing you a crumb.”

And If I am right, how can I make the best of this life with all this god-sanctioned suffering?
Put aside all religious/moral laws, rules, advice, knowledge…and believe in Him.  He will show you the rest.

Oh what a tangled web we weave when we try to explain what we believe!
Interesting how you scoff at my statement of putting aside everything you think you know and having simple faith.

“I am the way, the truth, and the life.”
“Trust in the Lord with all your heart; and lean not on your own understanding.”

There is no ‘good knowledge’ that comes before the Lord, including:

Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 13, 2009, 11:32:19 AM
Still waiting for James to reply to the following posts: ( with something better then ignoring them )

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=7021.msg170816#msg170816

and

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=7021.msg171423#msg171423
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Operator_A25 on July 13, 2009, 11:48:26 AM
Since I believed the Bible, I believed in the power of prayer.
The Bible and prayer are nothing if not used with the Holy Spirit.

Can you please elaborate on this response James?  As it is, it sounds like a really poor response and doesn't "contribute constructively to the discussion at hand" as mentioned in the forum rules.  What does "used with the Holy Spirit" mean exactly?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: james456 on July 13, 2009, 12:20:57 PM
Since I believed the Bible, I believed in the power of prayer.
The Bible and prayer are nothing if not used with the Holy Spirit.

Can you please elaborate on this response James?  As it is, it sounds like a really poor response and doesn't "contribute constructively to the discussion at hand" as mentioned in the forum rules.  What does "used with the Holy Spirit" mean exactly?

I would be happy to elaborate on any replies as time allows.  I will give special attention to yours, since you are a moderator.  There are over 2 pages of replies to my comments that I have been attempting to answer in the order posted.  I can't spend all day replying immediately to every comment, but I will do my best, especially when a poster reminds me that they would like an answer.

Please be patient, as I am (1) person with (10) asking me questions, and also have a life beyond this forum. :)
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 13, 2009, 01:01:45 PM
James, I appreciate the work and time that went into your reply.  However, it is disappointing that you seem to have addressed everything except the post itself.

Here is my initial question and your initial answer:

And If I am right, how can I make the best of this life with all this god-sanctioned suffering?
Put aside all religious/moral laws, rules, advice, knowledge…and believe in Him.  He will show you the rest.



Here is my follow up response to your initial answer:

If I put aside all religious/moral laws . . . and believe in God . . . He will show me the rest.
If I put aside all rules . . . and believe in God . . . He will show me the rest.
If I put aside any advice or knowledge I may have gained . . . and believe in God . . . He will show me the rest.

God has no problem showing me how to make the best of this life.  He will show me Himself, all I have to do is believe in Him.
Yet when it comes to showing me why I break out in hives . . . God has a problem showing me this.  And remember, I am not asking God to heal me of the allergy.  Simply "show" me what causes it, as you say He is ready to do.  You are talking out of both sides of your mouth, my friend.


In the entirety of your reply, you failed to address my response to your answer. 
So, again:
According to you, if I “Put aside all religious/moral laws, rules, advice, knowledge…and believe in Him. He will show (me) the rest.

Direct Question:  If God is willing, able, and ready to “show me” how to live a better life today, why wouldn't he have been just as willing, able, and ready to “show me” how to live a better life 30 years ago when that “showing me” would have merely involved sharing information He was clearly privy to?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Operator_A25 on July 13, 2009, 02:04:43 PM
I would be happy to elaborate on any replies as time allows.  I will give special attention to yours, since you are a moderator.  There are over 2 pages of replies to my comments that I have been attempting to answer in the order posted.  I can't spend all day replying immediately to every comment, but I will do my best, especially when a poster reminds me that they would like an answer.

Please be patient, as I am (1) person with (10) asking me questions, and also have a life beyond this forum. :)

I am very patient, but I think it would be good to get a believeable answer on this, because it may explain exactly why God might loath LonestarGrandad...  Or it is just a little bit of B.S. you are sneaking in to the discussion to deflect a serious problem in your arguments.  Regardless, you seem to be saying this is all his fault, but not showing what he could have or should have done to avoid the years of suffering he endured for no apparent reason.  We tend to frown upon that kind of response here, so you either need to explain it convincingly or admit that it is nonsense.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: CutePuppy on July 13, 2009, 02:28:53 PM
A couple of things I don't understand.

If biblegod is torturing us/ making us suffer to get us to accept/find him easier/faster, then what about our free will?

If biblegod has been talking to you or shown you in some other way that he exists, then what about your free will? If he shows himself to people that truly believe in him, then why bother keeping them around? Why not take them straight to heaven? Nothing more to test, as he's already revealed himself to you and that affects your free will. If the purpose of those believers god has allegedly revealed himself to are staying here to carry out his work of converting others, then what about their free will?

If biblegod has plans for all of us, including our response to his torture, then what about our free will?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: james456 on July 13, 2009, 07:02:44 PM
The Bible and prayer are nothing if not used with the Holy Spirit.
Can you please elaborate on this response James?  As it is, it sounds like a really poor response and doesn't "contribute constructively to the discussion at hand" as mentioned in the forum rules.  What does "used with the Holy Spirit" mean exactly?
LonestarGrandad said he believed in the Bible and prayer.  There is room in his statement to think that he might have had faith in the Bible by itself or prayer by itself.  The Bible is nothing more than a history book if the Holy Spirit does not bring it to life and help you to understand it.  In the same light, prayer has no power if God is not behind it.  These points are central to Christianity, and I was bringing them to LonestarGrandad’s attention, in the hope that he would consider these ideas against his former faith.

I think it would be good to get a believeable answer on this, because it may explain exactly why God might loath LonestarGrandad...  Or it is just a little bit of B.S. you are sneaking in to the discussion to deflect a serious problem in your arguments.  Regardless, you seem to be saying this is all his fault, but not showing what he could have or should have done to avoid the years of suffering he endured for no apparent reason.

I don’t know whose fault it is, if anyone’s.  My opinion is that it was not his fault, but that he has reached some wrong conclusions:
There is nothing wrong with you, except in your conclusions about how your life has unfolded.

Without more information, I cannot give him specific answers or advice.  That is why I said:
I could give you a much more specific answer if I could sit down in front of you and talk with you at length about this matter.  But because I have extremely limited information about you, your life, and what happened, I can only present some possibilities:

I presented numerous possibilities of why it could or could not be his fault, or some ways that God could have used his suffering without it being anyone’s fault.  I also asked a number of probing questions to try to learn more about his history and faith.  I could possibly tell him what he could have done differently if I knew a lot more about him.

I hope this answers your questions satisfactorily.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: james456 on July 13, 2009, 08:01:06 PM
According to you, if I “Put aside all religious/moral laws, rules, advice, knowledge…and believe in Him. He will show (me) the rest.

Direct Question:  If God is willing, able, and ready to “show me” how to live a better life today, why wouldn't he have been just as willing, able, and ready to “show me” how to live a better life 30 years ago when that “showing me” would have merely involved sharing information He was clearly privy to?
I thought I answered this already, but I will try to give you the concise version:

You think that your life would have been better without your affliction.  More enjoyable for you and comfortable?  Yes.  Better?  I can’t say for sure without knowing you much more.

Your suffering could have had little to do with you, but could have been completely for others’ benefit.  Jesus’ life was much the same.  Many mothers sacrifice most of their own rest and comfort and interests for the sake of their children.

Your question tells me that “better” to you means healthier.  Healthier is not always better.  Our idea of what is better is not always God’s idea of what is better.

Again, I can’t make any firm conclusions without knowing you personally.  But I gave you one example of why God could have had a good reason to leave you with your affliction until you were 30-something years old:
Your affliction could have been completely not your fault, but for the sake of others, to remind them that their daily troubles aren’t so bad.
There could have been numerous people you knew or ran into during the course of your affliction that were in the habit of focusing too much on small annoyances in their lives.  By seeing how much you suffered, it acutely reminded them that their problems were not so bad, and that they needed to focus on more important things, that they had a good life, and should be thankful.

“Why wouldn't he have been just as willing, able, and ready to “show me” how to live a better life 30 years ago?”

Because leaving you with your affliction did a lot more for the greater good than removing it.  If you cannot see that now, shelf the idea and reconsider it from time to time.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: james456 on July 13, 2009, 08:09:45 PM
Still waiting for James to reply to the following posts: ( with something better then ignoring them )

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=7021.msg170816#msg170816

and

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=7021.msg171423#msg171423

I'll reply to this next, as soon as possible.  The next 2 days are busy for me, so give me some time.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Mar on July 13, 2009, 08:18:31 PM
john456, the question is why God didn't REVEAL himself to LonestarGrandad when he was a BELIEVER, which would have made God's job even EASIER. It has nothing to do with healthiness or comfort or anything like that. God could have said "Hey bitch!" to LonestarGrandad and THAT would have been a sign but he didn't even do that. I don't know if you realize it but YOU ARE NOT ANSWERING THE QUESTION. Even saying "I don't know" is an answer.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 13, 2009, 10:15:49 PM
I don't know how to be more direct, short of simply repeating myself.

Maybe I am simply not making myself clear.

Is it just James, or is anyone else having a hard time understanding what I am saying?

Mar, you clearly understand my point.

Either James is not getting me or he is being intentionally obfuscatory.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: CutePuppy on July 13, 2009, 10:44:54 PM
I don't understand why you're still asking this question.

A typical Christian answers would be: biblegod didn't reveal himself to you because you were never a true believer in the first place, LonestarGrandad. And the proof is that you stopped believing. A real Christian would have taken it like a man, like all true Christians and kept on believing. Then biblegod would have (eventually) revealed himself to you/them. Now you will be burning in hell for failing biblegod's test, LonestarGrandad. On the upside, the point of your suffering was to tell others that their lives aren't as shitty and that biblegod does love them and wants them to love him back so they can go to heaven. So be happy that your suffering at least served some purpose in helping others find biblegod.

Oh, but because biblegod is all loving, he's willing to give you another chance. Just become a christian again and thank him for accepting you and beg for salvation and you might end up in paradise after all. Make sure to beg biblegod to forgive you for giving up (at least once). And make sure to emphasize that it was your weakness that made biblegod ignore you, it's got nothing to do with him at all.

And that's the story. On a slightly related note: anyone know a method of getting these crazy religious arguments out of one's head?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Operator_A25 on July 13, 2009, 11:16:32 PM
LonestarGrandad said he believed in the Bible and prayer.  There is room in his statement to think that he might have had faith in the Bible by itself or prayer by itself.  The Bible is nothing more than a history book if the Holy Spirit does not bring it to life and help you to understand it.  In the same light, prayer has no power if God is not behind it.  These points are central to Christianity, and I was bringing them to LonestarGrandad’s attention, in the hope that he would consider these ideas against his former faith.

I'm afraid I still have no idea what you mean by "used with the Holy Spirit."  Your reply raises new questions, like what it means for the Holy Spirit to "bring it to life and help you to understand it."  This is not what I would call a "constructive contribution" to the thread, but I'm interested to see how the thread plays out in spite of it. Maybe the regular forum members can drag some meaning out of these vague comments.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: William on July 13, 2009, 11:20:51 PM
Either James is not getting me or he is being intentionally obfuscatory.

LonestarGrandad, your rationality is too much of a threat.  If/when the response comes it will have to be very carefully constructed to dodge your question or allow a tactical withdrawal from engagement with you and your dangerous thinking  &)   

They all suffer from doubts but draw their strength to play-act their belief from the behavior and statements of other believers. When somebody like you, from within their ranks, breaks the chain of mutual reinforcement it's very scary to them.  They know you understand them.  It's not about an answer to your question - it's the probing rude exposure to the question within each of them.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: johnab on July 14, 2009, 02:54:47 AM
Do any of you agree that there are two main forces in our lives that promote change (good and bad change)?

No. That's oversimplistic, binary thinking. There are many forces that promote change; some might be intersubjectively described as 'good', others 'bad', others good to some and bad to others, or vice versa... and still others that are neither inherently good nor inherently bad in themselves. To categorize them as just two forces of 'good' and 'bad' displays a breathtaking naïveté that is almost childlike in its oversimplification.

Quote
If there is a God do you expect to be rewarded when your going in the wrong direction?

'Rewarded'? In what respect, exactly?

     Binary thinking is part of the point. Lonestar said "Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary" The reality is a bit more grey than a black and white picture. However taking his view I brought it to a binary statement.

     As far as reward....   going back to the binary example, positive reinforcement wouldn't do well If I stray to put me back on course.

john456, the question is why God didn't REVEAL himself to LonestarGrandad when he was a BELIEVER, which would have made God's job even EASIER. It has nothing to do with healthiness or comfort or anything like that. God could have said "Hey bitch!" to LonestarGrandad and THAT would have been a sign but he didn't even do that. I don't know if you realize it but YOU ARE NOT ANSWERING THE QUESTION. Even saying "I don't know" is an answer.

     Why God didn't REVEAL himself....  In part, unless the Lord shares His wisdom/knowledge...  "don't know." However, He has REVEALED himself to me and has spoken to me on many occasions. He's given answers that have proven to be true. My best guess would be that either lonestar couldn't hear or God didn't want to encourage him in the direction he was going in at the time. As far as an "audible voice" for lonestar....  If God did speak to Him audibly at the time God would have caused him to stumble*. That wouldn't be in his best interest.
    
     *Hearing God's voice sets you back. Stumbles you. Causes you to lose your bearings.

    
I don't understand why you're still asking this question.

A typical Christian answers would be: biblegod didn't reveal himself to you because you were never a true believer in the first place, LonestarGrandad. And the proof is that you stopped believing. A real Christian would have taken it like a man, like all true Christians and kept on believing. Then biblegod would have (eventually) revealed himself to you/them. Now you will be burning in hell for failing biblegod's test, LonestarGrandad. On the upside, the point of your suffering was to tell others that their lives aren't as s**tty and that biblegod does love them and wants them to love him back so they can go to heaven. So be happy that your suffering at least served some purpose in helping others find biblegod.

Oh, but because biblegod is all loving, he's willing to give you another chance. Just become a christian again and thank him for accepting you and beg for salvation and you might end up in paradise after all. Make sure to beg biblegod to forgive you for giving up (at least once). And make sure to emphasize that it was your weakness that made biblegod ignore you, it's got nothing to do with him at all.

And that's the story. On a slightly related note: anyone know a method of getting these crazy religious arguments out of one's head?

     I agree that typical Christians "believe in a 'biblegod'" instead of carrying out a relationship with the author. Having a foundation in a book instead of a living God. They also have more than 135 denominations in larger cities because they don't agree in what the Bible is talking about. Additionally placing everyone in a doctrinal/law box instead of teaching the true grace that gives carefree liberty. Being mostly weak instead of walking in the power of a father.
     I only ask that you may consider that I (or others) may not be typical.


LonestarGrandad said he believed in the Bible and prayer.  There is room in his statement to think that he might have had faith in the Bible by itself or prayer by itself.  The Bible is nothing more than a history book if the Holy Spirit does not bring it to life and help you to understand it.  In the same light, prayer has no power if God is not behind it.  These points are central to Christianity, and I was bringing them to LonestarGrandad’s attention, in the hope that he would consider these ideas against his former faith.


I'm afraid I still have no idea what you mean by "used with the Holy Spirit."  Your reply raises new questions, like what it means for the Holy Spirit to "bring it to life and help you to understand it."  This is not what I would call a "constructive contribution" to the thread, but I'm interested to see how the thread plays out in spite of it. Maybe the regular forum members can drag some meaning out of these vague comments.

"bring it to life and help you to understand it."....   (Not speaking for James) instead of reading a book and guessing what the author intended, though walking in the spirit you have the ability to ask the author for yourself what the intent was.

"used with the Holy Spirit."....  reading/understanding scripture not by our standards but by God's guidance.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Mar on July 14, 2009, 04:36:32 AM
johnab, you should have just left it at "I don't know." All of that other stuff is just pure speculation. (Audible voices cause stumbling? How about reaching out ANOTHER way?) And there is no way in hell that it could POSSIBLY be Lonestar's fault that he didn't receive the message of an ALL-POWERFUL God. If God wants people to worship him, it's in God's best interest to make himself known to people. If God can't reach out without causing some problems, then he's not all-powerful like the Bible claims he is. Thanks for actually answering the question, though.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 14, 2009, 05:50:09 AM

"bring it to life and help you to understand it."....   (Not speaking for James) instead of reading a book and guessing what the author intended,

People do that with books all the time, without a supernatural process. Understanding and visualization occur at a normal rate in any population, and one significant factor is literacy level. The reading process, cognitively speaking, is well understood. We use the findings of related research to inform our teaching practices in elementary and secondary schools.

I can assure you, at no time has a magic sky man been involved in any cognitive tasks, especially reading comprehension tasks. What we do find, is that reading, as a code-breaking, meaning-making task, is heavily determined by prior learning. Our prior learning of strategies to decode the text, certainly, but also our paradigms related to meaning. We analyze the mesage of a written text and work what we comprehend of it into how we see the world.

Most often, we interpret the message based on our prior learning. Interpreting it in a way that makes it fit with our paradigms. If one approaches a text with an inculcated notion of what it will say, and how the experience will play out, well, expectation determines perception, it's a fact of human cognition.

When we teach reading, we ask children to make the steps explicit, on paper. That way, they are aware of what they are doing from before reading to after. We have them write down predictions, read in steps, then retell, relate and reflect on the content, checking their predictions. That way we can have students begin to examine their own practices and how reading functions. They become better problem solvers this way, and tend to less often just see what they expect to see, and actually learn or at least consider new information thoughtfully.

If you co-opt the process intentionally, well your have some very vertical, restricted growth in your young person. Possibly he or she will end up believeing all sorts of idiotic things, rigidly.

Quote
though walking in the spirit you have the ability to ask the author for yourself what the intent was.
"used with the Holy Spirit."....  reading/understanding scripture not by our standards but by God's guidance.


Brilliant examples. Thank you.

Citations:
Fountas and Pinnell
http://www.amazon.ca/Guiding-Readers-Writers-Grades-Comprehension/dp/0325003106 (http://www.amazon.ca/Guiding-Readers-Writers-Grades-Comprehension/dp/0325003106)
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 14, 2009, 07:09:26 AM
    Why God didn't REVEAL himself....  In part, unless the Lord shares His wisdom/knowledge...  "don't know." However, He has REVEALED himself to me and has spoken to me on many occasions. He's given answers that have proven to be true. My best guess would be that either lonestar couldn't hear or God didn't want to encourage him in the direction he was going in at the time. As far as an "audible voice" for lonestar....  If God did speak to Him audibly at the time God would have caused him to stumble*. That wouldn't be in his best interest.      

How nice for you that God has REVEALED Himself to you and has SPOKEN to you on many occasions.  How nice for you that His answers have proven to be true.  

So either it's my fault that God wouldn't speak to me, or God didn't like the direction I was heading so He gave me the silent treatment.  Since I was a Christian from the time I was ten years old until I reached my forties, I would think that God would have had more regard for me than that.  But since you and He are so chummy and He decides I am not worth acknowledging, I must conclude, yet again, that He hates me.  Thanks for confirming God's hatred of me with your testimony.  

Of course, He doesn't exist so His hatred of me isn't going to ruin my day.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 14, 2009, 07:15:27 AM
Bringing up the "audible voice" is specious.  No where have I said that I needed God to speak to me in an audible voice.

As I reached middle age, I began to realize that I never needed a miracle.  I didn't need God to change my DNA or cure some problem within, or change my chemical makeup.  I didn't need God to give me eyesight, or cleanse leprosy, or regenerate a missing limb. All this lonely teenager needed was his loving God to tell one of his Servants to give him a simple word:  “Don't take aspirin.”

This loving God could have totally changed my life with those three words.  He didn't need to walk on water to get my attention.  All He needed to do was give me a dream, speak in my ear, tell somebody else.  But just get those three words to me.  But He didn't. 

Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Seppuku on July 14, 2009, 07:55:56 AM
I think the important message might be missed...or at least in the minds of those defending God.

Examples like Job were used to say, "God is like this, so no reason to stop worshipping him", that's plenty of reason to stop worshipping, what God did in the Bible is sadistic and we should worship someone like that?

If God is real then he is a sadistic in having people undergo bad suffering even to a severe point to learn a lesson or to turn their lives around. Does he really need to do that, screwtape made an excellent point on comparing God to a dog owner beating the crap out of their dog to stop them peeing on the carpet. It's completely unnecessary and cruel. I have a cat who keeps peeing in the living room? What do I do? Kill his family, burn his mother to death? Beat the living crap out of him without telling him what he's doing wrong? He may learn to stop peeing in the living room, he may not.

When you think about the advances in science, so much more in the world has been done because of medicine, because of great doctors and nurses, because of clean water, because of our understanding in how the world works. We now know that germs are what makes us ill, we know mental illnesses aren't 'the devil', though not everybody can be cured, but at least we know what's wrong with them and research is being made into finding cures, like Alzheimer's, at the moment, no cure, but it seems they're coming close to finding ways to dealing with it.

In the OP's case, he spent a life of having this condition he didn't understand, something his preachers didn't understand and all of the people who prayed for him and the prayer never worked, God never answered a single prayer to say to somebody who had devoted his life to the bible and God's word and say, "you're allergic to aspirin," it took a doctor who had to study him and try to figure it all out and years of medical science to understand what allergies are and how they manifest. But it all could have been a test to make him into a better Christian, like that worked? He's now an atheist.


But the main point I want to come onto, if God exists, he's an evil Tyrant, you don't need Epicurus to tell you that, you need to read the bible to know that. Why on earth would anybody want to worship a tyrant is beyond me. Rape, pillaging and genocide were spoken of so lightly by Christians in this thread, whose prayers did God answer in the Holocaust? Jews were victim to all 3 of those crimes. You can't honestly believe that God let that happen for some great lesson? Because that would make him just despicable. With worship of God you might as well:

Worship Hitler
Worship Henry VIII
Worship Stalin
Worship Saddam Hussein
Worship the Turkish government who acted genocide against the Armenians
Worship George W Bush Jr
Worship successful slavers
Worship Charles Manson
Worship all genocidal maniacs
Worship Genhis Khan

But then, if God really does exist, then their crimes mean nothing in comparison. Anybody to call God loving or good is either misguided, deluded or insane. If he exists, then worship is simply a selfish act to save your own arse.

Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Timtheskeptic on July 14, 2009, 12:03:08 PM
Well said Seppuku, i completely agree!
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 14, 2009, 12:31:14 PM
Ditto!
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Seppuku on July 15, 2009, 03:37:20 AM
Thank you. ;)
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: james456 on July 16, 2009, 10:13:39 AM
God uses physical suffering in an attempt to point us towards far bigger and better things than the few decades we are on this earth.  There is tremendous hope for all those with a less-than-perfect life:  rape victims, ignored children, unjust imprisonment, lonely, deformed, abandoned…it’s not a matter of not being a “wussie.”  It’s a matter of getting to know your creator and seeing far more than this physical world.
God, an omniscient omnipotent being, can't do that without suffering?
The answer is yes and therefore suffering overall is irrelevant to the end goal since god can have it in anyway god chooses, making your special pleading appeal for a greater purpose just a giant red herring.
God can have it anyway he chooses, but has chosen to leave suffering within the human experience of this life as an act to be played out over a limited time, instead of instantly making everything perfect.  He made his choice for very good reasons that can be hard to understand from our limited perspective on the earth.  You think His reasons are evil because you don’t see things from His perspective.

Parents often put their children thru some type of suffering for their own good—whether it be restrictions, discipline, or punishment.  The children’s crying turns into whining, complaints, and arguments as they become teenagers, and they are often UNABLE to understand why their parents are so cruel.  That doesn’t change the fact that their parents know best and are doing it for their own good.

Suffering is one of the many ways.  You see suffering as this horrible, bloodthirsty activity.  I see it as the firm guidance of God – used temporarily and as needed.  Perhaps you’ve had the worst of it…like one of the political prisoners spending decades in a North Korean gulag…even to that extreme,
This statement is a misrepresentation of my position. 

Suffering is antithetical to a human norm
Tell me in detail what the “human norm” is.

god is supposedly an omnipotent/omniscient being capable accomplishing anything.  The question is asked of you as to why there is suffering in the world which is really just a greater extrapolation of the question of evil.
Suffering does not equal evil.  Suffering can be good or evil, depending on intentions and results.  Marathon runners put themselves thru suffering to race well and possibly win.  Governments put their citizens thru the suffering of income tax for the good of the country as a whole.  Numerous countries sacrificed young soldiers’ lives to defeat the Nazis in WWII.  Just because you can’t immediately see a good reason for suffering doesn’t mean their isn’t one.


It brings us right back to the problem that god is ( if it exists ) entirely antithetical to what we often describe as 'good'.
Give me a rigorous definition of ‘good.’

Philosophically you rely upon the idea that god is good.
I rely on who I know Him to be.  I’m also betting that my definition of ‘good’ is different than yours in key areas.

Your god is inescapably maleovalent if it allows suffering to occur while has the ability to accomplish its end goal without suffering.  Your god is also inescapably inefficient, taking actions that serve no purpose and have no meaning to the ultimate goal it achieves.
You’re making big assumptions here:
#1   You may have known a few people who have suffered to some extent, but you cannot know how 99% of the suffering people you hear about on the news were ultimately affected, inside and out.
#2   You, as an atheist, believe that when we die, that’s all there is.  Blanko-and-nothing.  But that is a belief.  You can’t know for sure, because you haven’t died yet.  Which means that you don’t know what happens to suffering people after they die.

This brings us to the crux of the matter.  You consider suffering as hideous because you BELIEVE that this life is all we get.  I believe that this life is basically a brief training period for the much longer, better one that is coming.


Quote from: james456
what is 50 years of pain and struggle compared to eternity?  Nothing.
It is irrelevant, your using one supernatural claim to justify another supernatural claim.  The only limitation to what your claim is, is the ability for you to just make it up on the fly.
Scoffing at me doesn’t magically change reality and make by statements untrue.

James, to be frank, you are to busy trying to justify a belief that is philosophically dimwitted.  You are making ANY absurd rationalization that you can possible put up, no matter how much deeper it leads you into the ridiculous nature of what you're ultimately claiming.  You make NO intellectual attempt to justify what you are claim or even deal with the ramifications of what comes up afterwards.
My arguments are just as intellectual as yours, considering my belief that the spiritual world is the highest part of reality, people are not perfect and tend to stray away from being spiritual, God is helping them to become perfect, and that our existence continues long after our physical bodies die.

The only reason you would do any of this nonsense is because you are emotionally dependent upon believing in something to the point of delusion.
The only reason you cling to your arguments is because you are devoted to your delusion that there is no spiritual world and that this life is all we get.
 
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: HAL on July 16, 2009, 10:17:52 AM

God can have it anyway he chooses, ...


Yea, a real sweet gig if you can get it.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 16, 2009, 10:42:43 AM
God uses physical suffering in an attempt to point us towards far bigger and better things than the few decades we are on this earth.  There is tremendous hope for all those with a less-than-perfect life:  rape victims, ignored children, unjust imprisonment, lonely, deformed, abandoned…it’s not a matter of not being a “wussie.”  It’s a matter of getting to know your creator and seeing far more than this physical world.
God, an omniscient omnipotent being, can't do that without suffering?
The answer is yes and therefore suffering overall is irrelevant to the end goal since god can have it in anyway god chooses, making your special pleading appeal for a greater purpose just a giant red herring.
God can have it anyway he chooses, but has chosen to leave suffering within the human experience of this life as an act to be played out over a limited time, instead of instantly making everything perfect.  He made his choice for very good reasons that can be hard to understand from our limited perspective on the earth.  You think His reasons are evil because you don’t see things from His perspective.

Sorry james, RED HERRING.  If God can accomplish a goal through any means possible and chooses option A over B, it doesn't make A anymore relevant then B.

A, being suffering, is simply pointless and valueless.  You can't claim that he has a greater purpose, because his purpose is negated by the fact that he can do it without suffering.  You are placing NON ANSWER which is the very definition of what a RED HERRING is, in place as an excuse to justify suffering.  When philosophically and logically, suffering is valueless and since your answer is just a red herring.. it just begs the question again of WHY!

Quote
Parents often put their children thru some type of suffering for their own good—whether it be restrictions, discipline, or punishment.  The children’s crying turns into whining, complaints, and arguments as they become teenagers, and they are often UNABLE to understand why their parents are so cruel.  That doesn’t change the fact that their parents know best and are doing it for their own good.

FALSE ANALOGY.

When was the last time your parent gave you a sword and waited patiently around for you to cut off your own hand so you can learn not to play with swords?

Oh wait, that wouldn't be acceptable because we draw lines between personal responsibility and the responsibility we have in caring for others who are not yet knowledgeable or capable enough to do so themselves.

That wouldn't be anything short of absolute child abuse.

Your analogy is also wrong in another way, god has the absolute ability to make as as knowledgeable as is required to keep us from sinning/falling and causing 'suffering'.  A parent does not, a parent is not omnipotent nor omniscient, a parent can make mistakes because a parent is not a god.

Quote
Quote
Suffering is one of the many ways.  You see suffering as this horrible, bloodthirsty activity.  I see it as the firm guidance of God – used temporarily and as needed.  Perhaps you’ve had the worst of it…like one of the political prisoners spending decades in a North Korean gulag…even to that extreme,
This statement is a misrepresentation of my position. 

Suffering is antithetical to a human norm


Tell me in detail what the “human norm” is.

Biological attributed norms, suffering is actually detrimental to that norm.

Quote
god is supposedly an omnipotent/omniscient being capable accomplishing anything.  The question is asked of you as to why there is suffering in the world which is really just a greater extrapolation of the question of evil.

Suffering does not equal evil.  Suffering can be good or evil, depending on intentions and results.  Marathon runners put themselves thru suffering to race well and possibly win.  Governments put their citizens thru the suffering of income tax for the good of the country as a whole.  Numerous countries sacrificed young soldiers’ lives to defeat the Nazis in WWII.  Just because you can’t immediately see a good reason for suffering doesn’t mean their isn’t one.

Red herring. ( strawman as well, since I've made it clear that suffering need not have a value )

We are talking about the value of suffering in a system where suffering need not exist.  You keep using systems where suffering has a reasonable goal and value contributor to that goal.  However, the god analogy doesn't have a reasonable value for suffering based on a goal because suffering is negated by the fact that that goal can be achieved without suffering.

Quote
It brings us right back to the problem that god is ( if it exists ) entirely antithetical to what we often describe as 'good'.
Give me a rigorous definition of ‘good.’

It is subjective and I don't even have to use a context of 'good' per my definition.  I can use a context of good as it is applied biblically.

God is good no matter what god does, its a tautology as it is used biblically to identify each and every action of god as good.  The problem is that it makes 'good' valueless, equally it makes 'evil' null because there is nothing god can do that can be called 'evil'.

Your ridiculous apologia involves using a presuppositional based on a tautology that makes suffering, good, and existence valueless to the 'greater purpose' that you as an excuse to avoid criticism.  You make false analogies, repeat your red herrings, and constantly make absurd claims that contradict themselves.


Quote
Philosophically you rely upon the idea that god is good.
I rely on who I know Him to be.  I’m also betting that my definition of ‘good’ is different than yours in key areas.

Circular.

The biblical 'good' is a tautology, good is valueless logically and philosophically in the biblical context.

Quote
Your god is inescapably maleovalent if it allows suffering to occur while has the ability to accomplish its end goal without suffering.  Your god is also inescapably inefficient, taking actions that serve no purpose and have no meaning to the ultimate goal it achieves.
You’re making big assumptions here:
#1   You may have known a few people who have suffered to some extent, but you cannot know how 99% of the suffering people you hear about on the news were ultimately affected, inside and out.

Red herring, irrelevant.

There suffering is void to any answer that assumes a greater purpose when that purpose is achievable without suffering.

This is also abit of ambiguous equivocation, where you are using my inability to not have absolute knowledge of everything to reduce your specious claims to the unknown.  You have essentially used solipsism to defend your claim rather then any appreciable logical support for your claim itself.

Quote
#2   You, as an atheist, believe that when we die, that’s all there is.  Blanko-and-nothing.  But that is a belief.  You can’t know for sure, because you haven’t died yet.  Which means that you don’t know what happens to suffering people after they die.

Same as above.

If we based all claims of knowledge on the ignorance of what we do not know, then we can claim anything.

There is a leprechaun behind that tree, next to your god and he's fucking him in the ass.

Quote
This brings us to the crux of the matter.  You consider suffering as hideous because you BELIEVE that this life is all we get.  I believe that this life is basically a brief training period for the much longer, better one that is coming.

False.  I need not consider suffering bad or good.

Suffering is essentially valueless, yet it is justified biblical using an assumed greater purpose that need not include suffering in the first place.  Even with suffering being valueless, we can still point out that suffering is unrequired and thus ask the question why.

I can also identify suffering as bad, because of the nature of suffering to destroy human lives naturally since that is the only context I have available to me.  You attempt to dismiss this by making up an entirely supernatural context we need not believe nor have any reason to presume.  Your claims rest upon the ignorance of the unknown and your defense of which consists of devaluing life to a point where existence as it is now.. is pointless/meaningless.

Quote
Quote
Quote from: james456
what is 50 years of pain and struggle compared to eternity?  Nothing.
It is irrelevant, your using one supernatural claim to justify another supernatural claim.  The only limitation to what your claim is, is the ability for you to just make it up on the fly.
Scoffing at me doesn’t magically change reality and make by statements untrue.

Scoffing? I'm identifying your poor argumentation.  You seem to do nothing but make one logical fallacy after another.

Do we have any reason to believe in an eternity? no.

Are you providing any reason we should? no.

Are you making a claim about the supernatural? Yes

Are you using the claim about the supernatural to dismiss philosophical problems? Yes

I can't help but notice that you used 'magically' as if it were a pejorative when in reality every action your god takes and every claim association to your belief is in fact.. Magic.

Quote
James, to be frank, you are to busy trying to justify a belief that is philosophically dimwitted.  You are making ANY absurd rationalization that you can possible put up, no matter how much deeper it leads you into the ridiculous nature of what you're ultimately claiming.  You make NO intellectual attempt to justify what you are claim or even deal with the ramifications of what comes up afterwards.
My arguments are just as intellectual as yours, considering my belief that the spiritual world is the highest part of reality, people are not perfect and tend to stray away from being spiritual, God is helping them to become perfect, and that our existence continues long after our physical bodies die.

Sorry, you constantly rely upon logical fallacies: Red herrings, moving the goal posts, false analogies, strawmen etc.

They are not intellectual at all and are so poorly worded that they can be used to argue for anything.  You could argue for invisible immaterial hamsters on wheels that drive us as humans or you could argue for giant cosmic bunny rabbits that make reality.  It really doesn't matter, solipsism and ignorance can be used to argue for anything.

The only difference here is that I admit to not knowing when I do not know something.  I also do not argue from a presuppositional that my every claim is not only absolutely true but known to be true.

Quote
The only reason you would do any of this nonsense is because you are emotionally dependent upon believing in something to the point of delusion.
The only reason you cling to your arguments is because you are devoted to your delusion that there is no spiritual world and that this life is all we get.

I do not know if there is a spiritual world or not.  I do not believe in a spiritual world.

How can that match the textbook definition criteria of a delusion?  Please, explain, actually use your brain for once.. back up something you claim as if you actually could make a reasonable statement/argument.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 16, 2009, 10:45:34 AM

God can have it anyway he chooses, ...


Yea, a real sweet gig if you can get it.

Then god being good is meaningless just as meaningless as suffering and just as meaningless as a 'greater purpose'.

It is ultimately the excuse for the indefensible.  James can only engage in a one sided bigoted point of view here, where he has to dictate his presuppositional to everyone here as if it were absolutely true despite his every inability to validate it to anyone.  He has also reduced his claim to a point where he can't even defend the philosophical problems, by simply stating thats the way it is.

There is a leprechaun behind that tree f**king your god in the ass.

Oh, and that's just the way it is.

You can't see behind every tree so you really can't know that its not happening.

The leprechaun has a greater purpose for fucking your god in the ass, but he doesn't have to fuck your god in the ass to reach the same purpose so I'm not really sure how its greater then.. but I'm simply going to say so because that is your average imbecile level religious apologia.

Btw, Now.. you're being scoffed at and for good reason.  My every claim in this post is EQUAL to every claim you assert about your god belief, it is as equally justified logically and intellectually ( even the contradictions ).
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Seppuku on July 16, 2009, 11:09:29 AM
Quote
God can have it anyway he chooses, but has chosen to leave suffering within the human experience of this life as an act to be played out over a limited time, instead of instantly making everything perfect.  He made his choice for very good reasons that can be hard to understand from our limited perspective on the earth.  You think His reasons are evil because you don’t see things from His perspective.

God can have it anyway he chooses, that's not really loving when you think about it. It implies no responsibility, "I created sentient beings who can feel and be hurt, I've given them emotions and freedom...now because I created them, it doesn't matter what I do to them". I really can't believe you overlook the atrocities in the world like that, the 'god-given' natural disasters too.

You say our perspective on this Earth is limited, how do you know that he's 'good'? He could be evil, very evil and an evil being isn't going to perceive their self as being evil, now are they? And now if they're going to want people to worship them, they're not going to portray themselves as evil now are they?



Take the Nazis.

Did Hitler turn around in his speeches and say: "We, my brothers, we are going to do what is wrong and we are going to make people suffer, even though it's completely wrong, yet we'll get some sick pleasure out of it. So if you're not with me, then you'll be shot and treat like the Jews, who have done nothing wrong, but we hate them anyway."

He came on, like all tyrannical leaders believing they were right, believing they were good and righteous or at least convince their followers that they're righteous. I mean if it turns out that the Germans are a superior race and your leader, who you blindly follow either out of hope or fear, then you're going to believe it's true. Hitler promised some great things for the Germans and they thought he was a good man. They praised him and they held every bit of faith and trust in him as a leader. But now that we can step back, outside of that box Hitler created, we can actually see that he was a bad man. So you're right, we do have a limited perspective, as did the Nazi Germans, but they regretted when they found out the truth about their leader. You're only blind to say 'God is good'. Just look at how he deals with the world - open your eyes, God sent bears to maul a bunch of kids to death, he sat on his arse when millions of Jews were humiliated, beaten, tortured, forced to work, starved, murdered, gassed to death and for them to be traumatised, the survivors must have suffered some terrible trauma.

What greater good could that work for? Whatever this 'divine plan' is for, then there are other measures that can be taken. But no, God can do what the f*** he likes and let Jewish children watch their father pulled out onto the street to be beaten, humiliated and shot, for the same children to be taken to a concentration camp where they're heavily mistreated, if not facing beatings and torture, eventually to face the fear of death, to see any friends they make or know, die a terrible death, losing loves ones around them, to see all they hold precious to dissipate and for any of the survivors, they had to carry that weight for their lives, spending a lifetime learning how to deal with it and rebuilding all that was destroyed to find nothing compared to what they had. So God chose the sadistic route for that one. There were men who put everything they could on the line to save people's lives, to get the Jews away from the camps and to stop Hitler, it was men who eventually succeeded, yet God did nothing. Yet, I wonder how many thanked God for their victory? The point of a omnipotent being is that they can do anything and achieve anything by any means, being benevolent, by being good you choose the means and the ends that are good, that are loving - you'd use your power to help people and not hut them.

But you'll still call him good. Don't you see that's not what a 'good' being does? A good being does not ask for people to give their life to them in worship, that is all a selfish or self-centred, if not a narcissistic being. A good being doesn't send those who do not obey or worship him to burn in terrible pain for all eternity. That is called tyranny, not the will of a 'good' being.


Of course, I believe God is neither good or evil, because I believe he doesn't exist. Hitler was a horrible man, the Jews could have only been saved by men and good men did their best, put their life on the line and made sacrifices to do the best their finite strength could do.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Timtheskeptic on July 16, 2009, 11:28:16 AM
Quote
God can have it anyway he chooses, but has chosen to leave suffering within the human experience of this life as an act to be played out over a limited time, instead of instantly making everything perfect.  He made his choice for very good reasons that can be hard to understand from our limited perspective on the earth.  You think His reasons are evil because you don’t see things from His perspective.

God can have it anyway he chooses, that's not really loving when you think about it. It implies no responsibility, "I created sentient beings who can feel and be hurt, I've given them emotions and freedom...now because I created them, it doesn't matter what I do to them". I really can't believe you overlook the atrocities in the world like that, the 'god-given' natural disasters too.

You say our perspective on this Earth is limited, how do you know that he's 'good'? He could be evil, very evil and an evil being isn't going to perceive their self as being evil, now are they? And now if they're going to want people to worship them, they're not going to portray themselves as evil now are they?



Take the Nazis.

Did Hitler turn around in his speeches and say: "We, my brothers, we are going to do what is wrong and we are going to make people suffer, even though it's completely wrong, yet we'll get some sick pleasure out of it. So if you're not with me, then you'll be shot and treat like the Jews, who have done nothing wrong, but we hate them anyway."

He came on, like all tyrannical leaders believing they were right, believing they were good and righteous or at least convince their followers that they're righteous. I mean if it turns out that the Germans are a superior race and your leader, who you blindly follow either out of hope or fear, then you're going to believe it's true. Hitler promised some great things for the Germans and they thought he was a good man. They praised him and they held every bit of faith and trust in him as a leader. But now that we can step back, outside of that box Hitler created, we can actually see that he was a bad man. So you're right, we do have a limited perspective, as did the Nazi Germans, but they regretted when they found out the truth about their leader. You're only blind to say 'God is good'. Just look at how he deals with the world - open your eyes, God sent bears to maul a bunch of kids to death, he sat on his arse when millions of Jews were humiliated, beaten, tortured, forced to work, starved, murdered, gassed to death and for them to be traumatised, the survivors must have suffered some terrible trauma.

What greater good could that work for? Whatever this 'divine plan' is for, then there are other measures that can be taken. But no, God can do what the f*** he likes and let Jewish children watch their father pulled out onto the street to be beaten, humiliated and shot, for the same children to be taken to a concentration camp where they're heavily mistreated, if not facing beatings and torture, eventually to face the fear of death, to see any friends they make or know, die a terrible death, losing loves ones around them, to see all they hold precious to dissipate and for any of the survivors, they had to carry that weight for their lives, spending a lifetime learning how to deal with it and rebuilding all that was destroyed to find nothing compared to what they had. So God chose the sadistic route for that one. There were men who put everything they could on the line to save people's lives, to get the Jews away from the camps and to stop Hitler, it was men who eventually succeeded, yet God did nothing. Yet, I wonder how many thanked God for their victory? The point of a omnipotent being is that they can do anything and achieve anything by any means, being benevolent, by being good you choose the means and the ends that are good, that are loving - you'd use your power to help people and not hut them.

But you'll still call him good. Don't you see that's not what a 'good' being does? A good being does not ask for people to give their life to them in worship, that is all a selfish or self-centred, if not a narcissistic being. A good being doesn't send those who do not obey or worship him to burn in terrible pain for all eternity. That is called tyranny, not the will of a 'good' being.


Of course, I believe God is neither good or evil, because I believe he doesn't exist. Hitler was a horrible man, the Jews could have only been saved by men and good men did their best, put their life on the line and made sacrifices to do the best their finite strength could do.

Kudos to you Seppuku.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Seppuku on July 16, 2009, 11:38:49 AM
Thanks. I'll just apologise for typing errors (just to keep Agnastic the grammar Nazi away :P ) - I should think they're obvious, but I can't be bothered to edit them right now. ;)
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 16, 2009, 12:03:47 PM
If evil exists, in a context of good and evil as it is applied in the bible.

Then god either is evil in turn ( in the biblical context ) for allowing evil to exist when he has the absolute ability to negate its existence ( this is also applicable to good and evil having no meaning biblically ) or god doesn't actually exist.

The apologia answer of a greater purpose doesn't answer the problem because god ultimately has the ability to arrive to the greater purpose without evil regardless.  It is a red herring that only begs the same problem ( although worded in the context of a greater purpose ) again.

How is the same goal achieved with evil and without evil, greater or lesser?

*We don't have to identify in objective terms what good and evil are, we only need to identify that something exists that in a biblical context is called 'evil'.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Seppuku on July 16, 2009, 12:17:47 PM
Good and evil do not exist, unless in a biblical context, yet, but because we can decide what is 'right' and what is 'wrong', we can recognise and hopefully agree what a terribly screwed up 'act' is. And when we look at God and put 2 and 2 together to agree that his actions are immoral and understand that for God to be 'good' then he needn't act that way. That he chooses to is what makes his means to some 'divine plan' immoral. 
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: eaterjolly on July 16, 2009, 09:11:50 PM
Who I Am:  
A 43 year old man who has been on an intellectual journey that has culminated in my arrival as a Rational Person

Who I used to be:  
A true believer in the one true God.  A Christian who grew up believing everything I read in God's Holy Word.  A minister and preacher who gave his first sermon at the age of 14.  A fierce believer in the power of prayer and laying on of hands.  A practitioner of the "gifts of the Spirit" and a believer in others who possessed these "gifts of the Spirit."  I was happy, my life had purpose, God had a plan for me and I knew that He loved me because I had a personal relationship with Him through his Only Son, Jesus Christ.

The last in a long series of epiphanies that finally opened my eyes.  
As a teenager, I developed a severe allergy.  Spontaneously, and with no warning, I would break out in great patches of hives all over my body.  My eyes would swell shut, my hands would swell up, my face would swell and contort, my lips would grow to 3 times their normal size, and all of this at a moment's notice.  I may be in the middle of high school, or in the middle of church, or on a date, or with friends.  I never knew when it was going to happen and it practically ruined my teenage years.  Most teenagers only have to worry about acne.  I had to worry about suddenly turning into the elephant man.

Since I believed the Bible, I believed in the power of prayer.  Countless people prayed for me all over the state of Texas.  Faith healers layed hands on me and sent me prayer cloths.  Prophets prophesied that God was going to do something glorious through all of this.  People who had the "gift of knowledge" spoke a "word of knowledge" over me how God had great plans for me and a great ministry.  For years I prayed and believed.  God hadn't said "yes", and no one had said He said "no" so He must be answering "wait."  So I prayed, believed, and waited.

In the meantime, I grew older, got married, dealt with outbreaks, and took benedryl.  For years, different people would pray for me or offer the latest “word of knowledge” from God.  For years, I believed and waited.  But slowly the questions began to infiltrate my faith.  Slowly, rational thought began to replace faith.  In all aspects of my religious experience I began to ask questions I never allowed myself to ask.  Then one day, a doctor stumbled upon the answer to my physical and spiritual battles.

I had gone to see another allergy specialist ( an earlier doctor had not been able to isolate my particular allergen) to try to get some relief from this near debilitating phenomenon.  He ran all the prick tests and nothing was conclusive.  As I was leaving, almost as an afterthought, he said I might be allergic to aspirin.  The only way to tell was to not take it for six months and then take it one time and see if I had a reaction.  I waited the six months, and then I popped two pills.  The reaction was almost instantaneous!  

Bingo!  I was allergic to aspirin.  Since that day, I have not taken aspirin and my life has completely changed.  

As I reached middle age, I began to realize that I never needed a miracle.  I didn't need God to change my DNA or cure some problem within, or change my chemical makeup.  I didn't need God to give me eyesight, or cleanse leprosy, or regenerate a missing limb. All this lonely teenager needed was his loving God to tell one of his Servants to give him a simple word:  “Don't take aspirin.”

This loving God could have totally changed my life with those three words.  He didn't need to walk on water to get my attention.  All He needed to do was give me a dream, speak in my ear, tell somebody else.  But just get those three words to me.  But He didn't.  

This final revelation (among many others) brought me to a crossroads in my life.  I had two choices.  Either God hates me or He is imaginary.  Since I am too much fun for anyone to hate, the answer became crystal clear to me for the first time in my life:  God  must be imaginary.  

If He really existed and loved me, He could have shown me with the tiniest of gestures.  I didn't need a miracle, just a moment.  I never got either and now that I am viewing life through rational eyes I see why.  Not only am I free from all the questions, I am also free from the burden that there might be something wrong with me that would keep a loving God from throwing me a crumb.

 I am not a Christian, I am not a sinner, I am not a rebel, I am not an atheist.  I am a rational person.
If a guy walked up to you said "Don't take asprin" and walked away would you do it

Plus maybe God had made it so the doctor realized it was asprin
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 16, 2009, 09:28:44 PM
Let's see if you can do any better than the other christians that have refused to answer this question.

If God could make the doctor realize that I am allergic to aspirin, why not cut out the middle man and and make me realize that I am allergic to aspirin?  I, after all, believed in Him.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 16, 2009, 09:32:59 PM
I just saw that you are a little young, so I am simply going to leave it at that.  Hope you keep an open mind as you grow.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Seppuku on July 17, 2009, 03:53:17 AM
Quote
Plus maybe God had made it so the doctor realized it was asprin

Or years and years of development for medical science, hardworking scientists trying to find out how to save lives and understand what causes people to be ill and how to cure them of it. If it wasn't for the medical science, then nobody would know where an allergy would come from, without it people would probably use potions that don't actually work and get a preacher to try and cure them, which also would work. (Kind of like the situation here, many people prayed for his allergy and understand nothing about it) The realisation is due to human developments and nothing God given, this is why it annoys me when people 'thank God' for something 'man' has done, and not giving the credit to the men who did it - if 'God' does these things it makes the hard work, expertise and medical science moot, yet without them, a lot of us would be dead by now.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 17, 2009, 05:16:48 AM
I can see why people can't get to truth about God or don't even want to, I've been there myself.  A lot of what people who say they are christian post things on the internet that is very negative or they prove they don't really have a clue.  Very few churches teach right out of the Bible anymore.  What you get is their idea of what they think it says and means and the viewpoints are innumerable.  You can't find what they proclaim in the Bible because it's not there. 

And I would like to say God doesn't make people do what they do.  The scripture that says he ordained what one person would do is in the old testament and under the old covenant.  Most people who call themselves christian say they think they have to follow the old laws but they don't sacrifice animals or even half of the laws in the old testament.  So their message is confused and vague.

Another thing I believe is that if God heals someone, he keeps it to himself.  People may believe that God healed them, but there are no thunderbolts that come out of the sky that proclaim that God did.  There are so many misconceptions about healing I don't even care to bring them up much less defend them. 

Many people don't get there were different stages or ages where God behaved in a different way.  And because they want to believe they have to follow all the laws in the old testament they want to think he is still doing ALL the same things now.  Someone reading this may take it to their preacher and he will explain it away and they'll say ok.  But get in there and do heavy duty research themselves, no way.

Anyway, people that are confused and turned off have my sympathies and I have no power to change that.  You don't have to believe me and you don't have to believe anybody else and God won't make you believe anything you don't want to.  You can also talk about God being imaginary all you want and I don't have to buy a word of it.  Nor can you really proof that God is imaginary, but you can try. 
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 17, 2009, 08:17:18 AM
A lot of what people who say they are christian post things on the internet that is very negative or they prove they don't really have a clue.
 
Yet another christian accusing me of being a liar, or a wussie, or of having never been a christian, or not having a clue.  I was a devoted christian  for a long time.  All the posts from christians on this thread only remind me what I have gotten out of, what a relief.   

Many people don't get there were different stages or ages where God behaved in a different way.
 
There is no Bible to back this up.  "Jesus Christ the same yesterday today and forever"  " I am the Lord God, I change not"  A lot of people who say they are christians don't bother to read the Bible.  And if they do, they still twist it to say what they want it to say.

 
Someone reading this may take it to their preacher and he will explain it away and they'll say ok.  But get in there and do heavy duty research themselves, no way.

Looks like someone else needs to do the heavy duty research.  See post above.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 17, 2009, 08:42:11 AM
Yet another christian accusing me of being a liar, or a wussie, or of having never been a christian, or not having a clue.

I don't believe we've met, nor have I read any of your posts until now. But I will say the above is an example of a negative comment. 

This one ought to do:

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.  Romans 7:6
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 17, 2009, 09:01:18 AM
Yet another christian accusing me of being a liar, or a wussie, or of having never been a christian, or not having a clue.

I don't believe we've met, nor have I read any of your posts until now. But I will say the above is an example of a negative comment. 
This one ought to do:
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.  Romans 7:6

You say you have not read any of my posts, yet you are replying to a thread that I started when you say that some people say they are christians and post negative things on the internet.  Perhaps you should read the thread before commenting.

FYI:  Quoting words from the bible as opposed to using your own is empty.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 17, 2009, 09:03:14 AM
Quote
Yet another christian accusing me of being a liar, or a wussie, or of having never been a christian, or not having a clue.

I don't believe we've met, nor have I read any of your posts until now. But I will say the above is an example of a negative comment. 

A negative comment? You mean like this:

A lot of what people who say they are christian post things on the internet that is very negative or they prove they don't really have a clue.

This is the equivalent of saying anyone who doesn't believe as I do is a poo poo head and wrong.  It is a fallacy where you make up special pleadnig qualifiers such as,"they don't have a clue" without any explanation or even an attempt to provide any reasonable evidence for the claim.

You then use that as a reason to dismiss the people that are seemingly only different from you in that they don't accept your claim of an invisible super sky-daddy.

As an action, it is irresponsible to participating in an open discussion much less the lack of any intellectual component.  As ethics are concerned it is more about silencing people who don't believe as you do since you ignore the reasons that they don't believe as you do and make up dismissive ( and unexplained ) quips in order to silence what is really being stated by them.

Lonestar responds by pointing out exactly what your hateful dismissive quip that over generalizes everyone who doesn't automatically believe your every assertion does.  In that it accuses everyone else of being a liar, weak, or less then - it is an insult indirectly.

You then claim that pointing out something hateful you've done .. is again.. negative.  Right.

So beyond just accepting your every baseless assertion as if it were automatically true without any reason it need be believed or even relevant to reality, what else do you want of us?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 17, 2009, 09:09:50 AM
You say you have not read any of my posts, yet you are replying to a thread that I started when you say that some people say they are christians and post negative things on the internet.  Perhaps you should read the thread before commenting.

FYI:  Quoting words from the bible as opposed to using your own is empty.


I apologize, I didn't realize that was you.

No, my words are empty, the words from the Bible are not.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 17, 2009, 09:13:54 AM
This is the equivalent of saying anyone who doesn't believe as I do is a poo poo head and wrong.  It is a fallacy where you make up special pleadnig qualifiers such as,"they don't have a clue" without any explanation or even an attempt to provide any reasonable evidence for the claim.

No, that's not what I said.

By "they don't have a clue", I meant don't attend church at all or haven't studied the Bible in this regard for themselves.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 17, 2009, 09:17:07 AM
This is the equivalent of saying anyone who doesn't believe as I do is a poo poo head and wrong.  It is a fallacy where you make up special pleadnig qualifiers such as,"they don't have a clue" without any explanation or even an attempt to provide any reasonable evidence for the claim.

No, that's not what I said.

Not only is it EXACTLY the equivalent of what you're saying, you even go on to do it again:

Quote
By "they don't have a clue", I meant don't attend church at all or haven't studied the Bible in this regard for themselves.

This is just another special pleading qualifier, you're not being responsible in showing how. You're not providing examples and counter examples, you're not citing how it should be interpreting, and in fact you're not even trying to explain yourself at all.

I can make the same idiotic assertion:

You havn't studied the bible enough, you are attending the wrong church, and your just not smart enough.

Does that show how you havn't studied the bible enough? No.

Does it explain how I know you're attending the wrong church? No.

Does it explain how I know that you're not smart enough? No.

Does it effectively distance myself responsibly from claiming something and being able to demonstrate that my claim has any validity in the discussion? Yep.

Is it irresponsible? Yep

Is it intellectual? No.

It is a logical fallacy? Yep.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 17, 2009, 09:19:24 AM
You say you have not read any of my posts, yet you are replying to a thread that I started when you say that some people say they are christians and post negative things on the internet.  Perhaps you should read the thread before commenting.

FYI:  Quoting words from the bible as opposed to using your own is empty.


I apologize, I didn't realize that was you.

No, my words are empty, the words from the Bible are not.

The words of the bible are meaningless without any explanation or discussion that can ascertain not only what it means but that it is intended to mean anything at all.

Simply posting 'biblical scripture' is essentially a non-answer, it doesn't explain anything and you don't even offer to back it up.  It really is a sign of a gross lack of any intellectual depth to your own religion much less your ability to engage in an open discussion with others.  All it really does is place yourself in a bigoted one sided position where you have to dictate what others should believe but you are entirely unequipped to explain why it should be believed.

I could endlessly post scripture from all kinds of mythological text from all over the world.. and it wouldn't mean anything at all and it would be EQUAL to your own posting of biblical scripture in its value of meaningful content.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 17, 2009, 09:20:28 AM
I can see why people can't get to truth about God or don't even want to, I've been there myself.  A lot of what people who say they are christian post things on the internet that is very negative or they prove they don't really have a clue. 

 Someone reading this may take it to their preacher and he will explain it away and they'll say ok.  But get in there and do heavy duty research themselves, no way.

I appreciate your apology.  But don't you think your attitude comes off a little negative and unloving?  You are from the camp that is supposed to show love to give the world an example of the living christ, right?  You know, "a city set on a hill cannot be hid", "you are the light of the world", "love one another" those kinds of things? 

It would seem to me that when you come right out of the gate accusing people of not having a clue, you are not showing a "christ-like spirit."  "greater love hath no man than this that he lay down his life for his friends."  sounds like you are tearing down the lives of people you dont even know.  Perhaps a little more bible study is warranted.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 17, 2009, 09:31:21 AM
The words of the bible are meaningless without any explanation or discussion that can ascertain not only what it means but that it is intended to mean anything at all.

I thought I gave a pretty good explanation of what I was talking about in the first post.  And we are discussing it.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 17, 2009, 09:44:23 AM
But don't you think your attitude comes off a little negative and unloving?

You are right.  I get agitated by people who casually throw out that they are christians yet do not behave like it or know much of the Bible at all, because people think, "This is a christian?  Why would I want to be like that."  But that's not a good excuse for letting it get the best of me and sounding negative myself.  Again, I apologize, I did realize it sounded that negative.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 17, 2009, 09:45:23 AM
But don't you think your attitude comes off a little negative and unloving?

You are right.  I get agitated by people who casually throw out that they are christians yet do not behave like it or know much of the Bible at all, because people think, "This is a christian?  Why would I want to be like that."  But that's not a good excuse for letting it get the best of me and sounding negative myself.  Again, I apologize, I did realize it sounded that negative.

I can't help but point out the irony that if you are a christian, then I wouldn't want to be like you either.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 17, 2009, 09:49:42 AM
I can't help but point out the irony that if you are a christian, then I wouldn't want to be like you either.
   
Good one! Haha  I don't want to be like myself either when I do that.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 17, 2009, 09:55:16 AM
I can't help but point out the irony that if you are a christian, then I wouldn't want to be like you either.
   
Good one! Haha  I don't want to be like myself either when I do that.

Then you probably shouldn't make claims that pertain to an idea that you seem to assume where you know what a 'true christian' actually is.

If you do, then you need to be able to explain not only 'what' a 'true christian' is but 'why' that claim of a 'true christian' is accurate or even need be beleived.  Otherwise you have a very undefined goal posts that you can move around in any direction to avoid anything you feel is bad and to confirm anything you feel is good.

I usually identify christianity by the type of people it as an ideology produces across the entire spectrum of people who call themselves christian in both the past and present.

( Fred Phelps is as much a product of christianity as you are, as are the crusades, as is anti-semitism in europe, as is slavery in america, as is the opposition to science/education both in the past and present )

I also identify christianity by what it historically in the past and present, seems to not only identify as antithetical to christians/christianity but has even harmed christianity as an overwhelming general social movement.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 17, 2009, 10:04:20 AM
Then you probably shouldn't make claims that pertain to an idea that you seem to assume where you know what a 'true christian' actually is.

Thanks for pointing that out.  I will take your words to heart.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 17, 2009, 10:06:28 AM
I also identify christianity by what it historically in the past and present, seems to not only identify as antithetical to christians/christianity but has even harmed christianity as an overwhelming general social movement.

I agree.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 17, 2009, 10:13:08 AM
Thank you for your comments, Omen.  I wish I had more time to discuss that but I have to sign off.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Seppuku on July 17, 2009, 10:48:10 AM
You don't seem so bad JudiBug, whilst you have made some assumptions, you're not overloading your posts with tripe to back them up and are seemingly honest. I think I'd just point that out as a lot of Christians that tend to come on here to troll or preach or just persistently argue and miss the point without given what people say any real thought.

The problem with 'True' Christianity is that it doesn't exist, whilst any Christian following the bible will believe their interpretation is right, because they're done their best to read it (on those who actually read it for answers) and it is because it's how it was preached to them. But the bible never came with a guide for interpretation, thus there's no object means of understanding it - some use this to their advantage when somebody picks them up on somebody, "oh that's a metaphor", or in the case of the old testament, "oh that part of the old testament is irrelevant to Jesus' teachings" and it's people like that who are difficult to discuss religion honestly with. But there are the dark interpretations of the bible, which are quite true to the word of the old testament, which is relevant, especially the 5 books of Moses, but they are quite scary interpretations and it's fundamentalist Christian beliefs that are dangerous, even to other Christians. I think about the Southern Baptists and the Pentecostals and I just shake my head, especially in knowing that Sarah Palin is one of them. But they're justified to call themselves 'True' Christians and they'll call you a fake one, any word about Jesus' love might be shunned. The Westboro baptist church is perhaps the most outspoken example.

They're all as much as product of Christianity as you and you've got to understand the dislike or annoyance for the irrational or even dishonest types.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 18, 2009, 12:22:15 AM
Seppuku, I agree with nearly everything you said.  True christianity does not seem to exist but I have personally known true christians (in the spiritual sense whether they agree on everything or not) though they are rare.  My father was one of them and I will never myself be a match.  I am not saying he was perfect, no one is and no one is exactly alike in their thinking.  This would be hard for me to explain in a way that I think you would understand and I sure don't think you have to believe it.

You are correct in my opinion about the Baptists and the Pentecostals and also Sarah Palin. 

I guess I came on here as an apologist because when I think of all that's been done it makes me very sad.

My memory is poor.  I'll have to read your comments again before I can respond.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: eaterjolly on July 18, 2009, 12:37:53 AM
Let's see if you can do any better than the other christians that have refused to answer this question.

If God could make the doctor realize that I am allergic to aspirin, why not cut out the middle man and and make me realize that I am allergic to aspirin?  I, after all, believed in Him.
Well really it's your fault by not expirement with certain foods or medication like asprin you don't need a doctor to tell you to experiment with common allergies like asprin!!!
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Onesimus on July 18, 2009, 12:42:28 AM
Person A:  "I was a Christian but it didn't work."
Person B:  "That is proof that you didn't do it right."
Person A:  "No it's not.  It's proof that it doesn't work to begin with."
Person B:  "It works for me, so that's even more proof that you didn't do it right."
Person A:  "It only works for you because you delude yourself into seeing no conflicts or problems."
Person B:  "You couldn't have ever been a Christian, because a Christian could never come to such a conclusion."

Lather, rinse, repeat....    
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: eaterjolly on July 18, 2009, 12:43:47 AM
I just saw that you are a little young, so I am simply going to leave it at that.  Hope you keep an open mind as you grow.
Believe me I'm probably the most open minded person on the planet. I maybe you but I'm more into philosophy than most adults
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 18, 2009, 01:01:23 AM
Seppuku, I just figured out how to read your comments without starting over, thank goodness.

This would need to be said to the individual who believes himself to be a christian, but the New Testament gives a method on how you can tell and certainly does not class everyone as being one.  It explains that there are "antichrists".  Notice I said it in the plural.  The so called "anti-christ" in Revelations is Satan.  I don't advise people to try to understand that book or worry about it.  I personally believe all the Old Testament prophesies were fulfilled long ago and that Revelations was written mainly for the people living at the time it was written.  Much of it is about the time after christians are gone from the earth in my opinion.  Probably no one will notice that much.  Only the Father and Son will know who is truly Christian at that time.  This is something I tend to believe is true, that those who never heard or believed that Jesus was the son of God will stay in the grave and simply not have the reward.  There some Biblical basis that this is true according to what I heard as a child during a discussion with two who studied the Bible for many years.  My father was one of them.  He did not necessarily agree or disagree and didn't think it was necessary to know, at least for himself.  But when I had questions on that matter, my parents referred to the other person in the discussion.  It was left up to me to think about.  I feel that I was raised in a very rare environment and very fortunate to have done so because I have chosen, at last, that same path.  I have to be honest with myself as much as I can be.  On the social upheaval surrounding the said denominations and like denominations, I agonize on the effect of it, but who I am to say exactly what that effect will be in the spiritual sense.  I don't really know.  

I hope you will understand what I've meant to say.  I don't do that well at explaining because for one thing I'm a little dyslexic and for another it's hard to know enough about the reader to determine how to say somethings.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Seppuku on July 18, 2009, 02:26:45 AM
I think I know what you're trying to get at and it seems you are a different kind of Christian to the ones we normally deal with one here. Whilst have Chritians who are good because of the bible, we have those bad ones, which is the sad thing and this is maybe why I think the 'right' interpretation is important because if the bible was clear enough we'd be able to recognise whether the God in it is meant to be good or bad. Whilst in the end if Christianity proves to be true, it is up to the Father and Son to judge who's right and who's wrong, the problem is that there are a lot of Christians who use the bible to judge other people and it has all of the right material to just do that, so if God exists I believe that if he is 'good' then he has made some mistakes, which has resulted in the kind of fundamentalism we get today.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 18, 2009, 03:54:41 AM
Seppuku, you sound like a good man.  No wonder what you see happen looks very ugly. But that was not the way it was intended to be.

"Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law."

The "law" means the laws of the Old Testament which were very harsh.  The New Testament comes the new covenant which replaces the old. Some parts of the New Testament seem harsh until you see it.  I don't know how to get someone to see it, it is just something that comes.  Even then there is much to understand, but it's so much easier and a wonder.

Anyway, this is the way a true christian is, he loves his fellowman.  For example if his fellowman is a happy person he is glad, if his fellowman is bad, he is sad not angry, not arrogant or any of those things. 

"Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness."

Seppuku, I know if you were a christian, you would be a good one because you are already good.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Seppuku on July 18, 2009, 04:32:57 AM
This is where I become critical of the Christian God, whilst I like interpretations like that one, and that quote if related to the old testament might challenge the quote I often use in discussions, which is where Jesus essentially says, "study Moses' teachings before mine", which reads as "follow the 5 books of Moses before the New Testament", so maybe Jesus was to be the 'new way'. The part I'm critical of is that if God is real, and the bible speaks truth, then the old way still happened and we know that to be wrong and that is or was the nature of God, I don't think an omniscient being is one that can 'earn'.

But my time posting is cut short, so I'll probably return to edit this if nobody's made a reply.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Airyaman on July 18, 2009, 04:45:40 AM
I think about the Southern Baptists and the Pentecostals and I just shake my head, especially in knowing that Sarah Palin is one of them.

Sepp, you're kinda hung up on Sarah Palin, aren't you? Got a secret crush on her  ;)?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Seppuku on July 18, 2009, 07:12:04 AM
Ew, ew, ew! No way, no way. Judge Judy is more my type. ;) It's after learning about the pentecostals and finding out that one of them almost became vice president just bothers me, so she has become one of my main examples for talking about fundamentalists and satire. George Bush gets all of the stick, but he's old news now. And I don't think he's as bad if you forget the Iraq war. ;) I probably look anti-republican now, but I didn't mind McCain, as he didn't see as bad as previous candidates.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 19, 2009, 08:34:26 PM
Seppuku,

Do you know what the scripture is for the "study Moses' teachings before mine"?  Without seeing it I would guess he would have said that to the Jews that should have known Moses' teachings.

It was the nature of God in setting the stage for the entrance of Jesus. It was very strict and harsh in protecting the Jews because that was where Jesus would enter this world.   That may not be a good enough answer for you and if so, I understand.  I felt that way when I was about 19 or 20, and it bothered me so much I quit believing in God for awhile because I couldn't understand why God would do those things and why he let bad things happen.

I don't get the phrase one that can 'earn'.  Splain?

By the way, I've often wondered what men see in Palin.  To me she wears too much make-up.  I quit the Republicans and haven't regretted it once.  Now I'm an independent.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Seppuku on July 20, 2009, 12:35:40 PM
I have a little place online where I've been keeping bible quotes I use in discussion, unfortunately the site is currently down as the people who own the site are having a move around, it was supposed to be back up today, so I'm going to have to get back to you with the quote. I've quoted it on here before, but sadly I can't remember on which threads - unless somebody else reading this knows exactly which quote I'm referring to, then it'll be a big hand.

On the surface it sounds like a reasonable explanation, but what I think often goes amiss is two main things; omnipotence and how terrible the things God did, allowed and demanded in old testament were - whilst he wanted to protect his chose people, I cannot help but see how unnecessarily cruel he was, in the bible. If these stories are true, then he may have given us mercy and showed us kindness, I say 'good on him', I probably relate and say, "he's not so perfect after all", but I wouldn't forget the horrors of the old testament and if God is real, then he should not be judged as some ultimate, pure and perfect being because I've heard no reason that would excuse the Old Testament.

The other problem is that fundamentalists believe that the God of the bible never changed and that he is the same as was in the old testament. Of course I would sooner encourage your interpretation of the bible than there's because it answers the differences between the old testament and new testament better and is less psychotic. However as a storyteller and a person with a keen interesting in ancient history, I have a more likely answer, the bible is a collection of stories carried on by the ancient storyteller and each storyteller has a different way of telling stories (I can assure you that this is really easy to do, even if you don't intend to), thus the stories of the bible should be treated as stories and the old testament would have been in circulation more and is perhaps more diluted with laws that were not 'god-given', but made by men in relation the ways of that time. I'd probably conclude that there was a man named Jesus who preached 'the good word' though I'd doubt that he was the son of any god nor a being of any supernatural power, but that is what the storytellers through a few generations added before the bible was written down. I won't deny any claims where somebody takes more truth than that from the bible, but that is what I have deduced from my understanding of things. Perhaps the stories and teachings were divinely influenced, but we could have them in a diluted form, though I have no reason to assume that, but I won't rule it out because I try to keep an open mind.


As for Sarah Palin, wasn't she Miss America or something when she was young? But now she's too old for a man my age, I wouldn't even call her 'MILF', if we're going to talk on shallower terms, I think American woman can over-do themselves a bit (or at least typically). Except Judge Judy grrrowwl. Kidding of course, she's the very definition of childhood nightmares. She strikes more fear in me than Anne Robinson. ;)



[EDIT]

I have that quote for you:

Quote
“For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” (John 5:46-47.)
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 20, 2009, 02:09:26 PM
I understand how you feel about the old testament completely.  Even to this day I'm not fond of it and generally don't spend much time studying there.  However, I will be doing some one on one Bible studies with a good teacher who will go over parts of the old testament.  So, I'll see what he says about the matter and I'll let you know if there's more of an explanation.

I know that the Israelites were a rather primitive people and that God did sort of a boot camp rehabilitation with them but even after he'd been very kind to them they'd wind up turning against him or just wander off. 

Yes, do send me that scripture.  I'm sorry to be so ignorant in not knowing any more that I do.  I feel I should be familiar with it, but am not. 

Some of the newer fundamentalists seem to be fond of lots of make up, but years ago Pentacostals would not wear any at all.  To me putting a lot of stock in make-up is rather childish or teenagerish though it is what American women do.  And I thought Miss American contestants were supposed watch making themselves looking unnatural, but if so it didn't stick.

That's it for me today or until much later.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 20, 2009, 02:40:41 PM
Seppuku, you sound like a good man.  No wonder what you see happen looks very ugly. But that was not the way it was intended to be.

"Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law."

The "law" means the laws of the Old Testament which were very harsh. 

They are racially, sexually, and culturally bigoted murderous indictements against humanity ( or more colloquially everything non-chosen people )

If that is what you mean by 'harsh'.

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The New Testament comes the new covenant which replaces the old.

And the bad arguments begin.

This is where religious apologia loses the audience of the non-believer and immediately detaches from intellectual validation of its own claims.  The statement is made in trying to rationalize a 'new message' to dismiss or explain way antithetical views of the 'old message', it doesn't deal with the implications or consequences of trying to plead this new case.  It also only uses a few vague intermediary references to scripture to draw an entire wealth of ideology.   Lastly, it generally ignores any reason it should be believed at all because the audience being spoken too is already assumed to be a believer.

Why would a god ever have a covenant?

Why would a god ever have to change its covenant for a new one?

Why is the previous covenant such a violent genocidal mirror image of the supposedly 'good' new covenant?

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Some parts of the New Testament seem harsh until you see it.

See what?

How does that explain anything?

Why should I believe it?

How does it make the rest ok?

I would also disagree with you with regards to the new testament, the new testament contains similar if not the same type of in group / out group mentality that marks all 3 abrahamic faiths.  It often is as racist and cultural bigoted as its precursor.

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I don't know how to get someone to see it, it is just something that comes.  Even then there is much to understand, but it's so much easier and a wonder.

This isn't a statement of intellectual validation for the claim, it is in its place a special pleading ( begging ) to believe it this way rather then that way.  You're essentially saying ignore all this bad stuff and believe like this, without telling anyone why it should be believed at all.  You're also passing up the consequences and worse implications of your 'rationalization', primarily to conclude upon the idea ( assumption ) that that in itself is a valid explanation.  It leads me to believe that you are essentially puppeting apologetic nonsense back at us without any understanding of what you are talking about.

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Anyway, this is the way a true christian is, he loves his fellowman.  For example if his fellowman is a happy person he is glad, if his fellowman is bad, he is sad not angry, not arrogant or any of those things. 

Just a clarification.  If the bible says to love your fellowman, why does it make a distinction in identifying who your enemy is?  Why does it say love your enemy as well?

Assuming that you're right and that 'fellowman' represents all fellow human beings ( which I disagree that it does, because 'brother' and 'sister' were in reference to fellow believers ), why would it have to identify certain groups as 'enemies'? Why would it call certain groups evil? Liars? Idolators? Perverts? Beasts? Dogs? Swines?

Why would it do any of that based on the criteria that that other group exists in a state where the only contention of division between them is that they don't believe in the same religious mythology?  Why would some verses over emphasize the damnation and cursed state of jews over non-jews?

Why concentrate on just that part that you believe sounds nice, but ignore all the rest that is made in opposition to that part?

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"Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness."

Again, brother=christian.

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Seppuku, I know if you were a christian, you would be a good one because you are already good.

The christian moniker is a non-state, why does he have to be christian at all?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 20, 2009, 07:06:05 PM
They are racially, sexually, and culturally bigoted murderous indictements against humanity ( or more colloquially everything non-chosen people ) If that is what you mean by 'harsh'.
No   Why would a god ever have a covenant?
  To convince people that he was real and get them ready for the next covenant.  Why would a god ever have to change its covenant for a new one? To his love by making the greatest sacrifice any loving parent has done for someone else.  Why is the previous covenant such a violent genocidal mirror image of the supposedly 'good' new covenant?  It isnt. Although some denominations and groups seem to prefer it be that way.  This isn't a statement of intellectual validation for the claim, it is in its place a special pleading ( begging ) to believe it this way rather then that way.  You're essentially saying ignore all this bad stuff and believe like this, without telling anyone why it should be believed at all.  You're also passing up the consequences and worse implications of your 'rationalization', primarily to conclude upon the idea ( assumption ) that that in itself is a valid explanation.  It leads me to believe that you are essentially puppeting apologetic nonsense back at us without any understanding of what you are talking about.
  I am not responsible for what you think when you're wrong.  Just a clarification.  If the bible says to love your fellowman, why does it make a distinction in identifying who your enemy is?  Why does it say love your enemy as well?  To show that anger wouldnt be a part of it.  Assuming that you're right and that 'fellowman' represents all fellow human beings ( which I disagree that it does, because 'brother' and 'sister' were in reference to fellow believers ), why would it have to identify certain groups as 'enemies'? Why would it call certain groups evil? Liars? Idolators? Perverts? Beasts? Dogs? Swines?  That was the type of language used in that day. Why would it do any of that based on the criteria that that other group exists in a state where the only contention of division between them is that they don't believe in the same religious mythology?  Why would some verses over emphasize the damnation and cursed state of jews over non-jews?  No.  They had rejected their own prophecies.  Why concentrate on just that part that you believe sounds nice, but ignore all the rest that is made in opposition to that part?
  Because I am not knowledgeable enough about the old testament.

Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 20, 2009, 07:46:17 PM
Again, brother=christian.
  ?????  The christian moniker is a non-state, why does he have to be christian at all?
  The comment is not suggesting that he has to be christian at all.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 20, 2009, 08:20:21 PM
Quote
They are racially, sexually, and culturally bigoted murderous indictements against humanity ( or more colloquially everything non-chosen people ) If that is what you mean by 'harsh'.


No

So the stories of gods 'chosen' people, who's only distinction from other people is racial, run around the middle east murdering the occupants ( which is called genocide ) of each and every single city that they run into down too every man, woman, and child.. with the occasional exception of young virgin girls... never happens in your brain?  The words just magically disappear from the paper? Perhaps they are just playing patty cake when it says go murder each and every single occupant of this city or that city?  Perhaps the order for stoning to death for each and every single broken commandment really should have been translated as mild spanking?

And you expect to be taken seriously.. how and why again?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 20, 2009, 08:48:43 PM
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Why would a god ever have a covenant?

To convince people that he was real and get them ready for the next covenant.
 

So, an absolute omnipotent and omniscient super being couldn't have accomplished this with the first covenant .. much less no covenant whatsoever?

Again, I must point out that your rationalization doesn't really answer the question or the problem.  Your answer just begs the next question because you're essentially making a red herring excuse.  That's what a red herring does btw, it attempts to sidestep the question but as a fallacy it just begs the next question.

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Why would a god ever have to change its covenant for a new one?

 To his love by making the greatest sacrifice any loving parent has done for someone else. 

This problem begs two questions.

1. Again, your answer doesn't really explain itself, it presents a red herring that simply begs the next question:  Are you saying an omnipotent and omniscient super being couldn't have done this without a second covenant?  Again, why have the first covenant?  ( see how it really doesn't answer so much as it provides excuses. )

2. Contradiction: God sends himself to sacrifice himself to satisfy a loop hole in rules he himself created, how is this love?  He doesn't have to have the rules, he doesn't have to have the system in which he would have to sacrifice himself to himself to satisfy a loop hole in rules that require him to harm the things he created or to have them be harmed.  The actions as they are described don't match anything we can commonly call 'love', if anything it is vindictive and egotistical actions of a narcissistic child that just wants attention.

3. What did god sacrifice?

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Why is the previous covenant such a violent genocidal mirror image of the supposedly 'good' new covenant?

  It isnt.

Right.  Just pretend that the majority of the old testament doesn't exist.

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Although some denominations and groups seem to prefer it be that way. 

Because historically it was that way, this is the history that most religions originate out of.. that is tribal stone age barbarism.  We are not so dishonest to pretend that this history doesn't exist or even more delusional.. to pretend that something like the old testament doesn't list the countless genocidal rampages against other competing tribes.  You do.

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Quote
This isn't a statement of intellectual validation for the claim, it is in its place a special pleading ( begging ) to believe it this way rather then that way.  You're essentially saying ignore all this bad stuff and believe like this, without telling anyone why it should be believed at all.  You're also passing up the consequences and worse implications of your 'rationalization', primarily to conclude upon the idea ( assumption ) that that in itself is a valid explanation.  It leads me to believe that you are essentially puppeting apologetic nonsense back at us without any understanding of what you are talking about.

  I am not responsible for what you think when you're wrong. 

Strawman:

How are you telling us you're right?  Oh wait.. you're not.  You're bumbling through stupid religious apologia that you can't even validate intellectually to others and you're simply relying dictating it as if thats the way it should be believed.  Where is the logical argument? Where is the reason? Where is the evidence? .. This is what we want as non-believers.. and this is what you are avoiding at all cost.

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Just a clarification.  If the bible says to love your fellowman, why does it make a distinction in identifying who your enemy is?  Why does it say love your enemy as well? 

 To show that anger wouldnt be a part of it.

Again, that makes absolutely no sense and explains absolutely nothing.  In fact, the implications make your bumbling defense of it worse, since the distinction by which it identifies 'enemies' is that they don't believe the same as the in group.  The really horrifying part of this idiotic defense is that the bible relies upon whats called dehumanization, where the out group is villified for nothing but the fact that they are the out group.  Every single pejorative association is made to the out group to further distance it from the in group mentality. 

That's what we call bigotry and its a precursor to violence.

Quote
Quote
  Assuming that you're right and that 'fellowman' represents all fellow human beings ( which I disagree that it does, because 'brother' and 'sister' were in reference to fellow believers ), why would it have to identify certain groups as 'enemies'? Why would it call certain groups evil? Liars? Idolators? Perverts? Beasts? Dogs? Swines?

  That was the type of language used in that day.

And that is relevant to demonizing people by just the fact that they don't believe the same as you do.. how?  Are you a child? What kind of answer is this from supposedly the most loving religious scripture in the world? And this is the NEW testament you keep distancing from the OLD!?

Quote
Quote
Why would it do any of that based on the criteria that that other group exists in a state where the only contention of division between them is that they don't believe in the same religious mythology?  Why would some verses over emphasize the damnation and cursed state of jews over non-jews? 

 No.  They had rejected their own prophecies. 

Amazing.

Have you ever read the old testament?

I hate to break the news to you.. but judaic messianic prophecies.. have NOTHING to do with jesus.  They are so far removed from what christians claim is messianic prophecy, that jews don't even recognize what christians are talking about.  They are often not even the same scripture, much less even interpreted in the same manner.

The pure ignorance and arrogance of your statement is just.. amazing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology

In the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible)

Most of the textual requirements concerning the messiah, what he will do, and what will be done during his reign are located within the Book of Isaiah, although requirements are mentioned in other prophets as well.

    * The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
    * Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)
    * The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
    * He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10)
    * The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
    * Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
    * Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
    * He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
    * All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
    * Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
    * There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
    * All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
    * The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
    * He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
    * Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)
    * The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
    * The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
    * Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
    * The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
    * He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
    * Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
    * He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)


Quote
Quote
Why concentrate on just that part that you believe sounds nice, but ignore all the rest that is made in opposition to that part?
[/b]
  Because I am not knowledgeable enough about the old testament.

And you're claiming to believe in a god why?  Why are you even trying to defend it to others?  Again, are you a child?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 20, 2009, 09:07:37 PM
Why are you even trying to defend it to others?   I am not defending it just commenting honestly as I know how.  Unless you can read my thoughts and heart your comments about me are meaningless to me.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 20, 2009, 09:12:19 PM
By the way, Omen, I have no interest in a tit for tat conversation, two people trying to use a one way communication method.  Thanks but no thanks.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 20, 2009, 09:30:39 PM
Why are you even trying to defend it to others?   I am not defending it just commenting honestly as I know how.

If you don't know why how or what.. why are you commenting at all?

See, we actually give a shit that what we claim to believe has some relevancy to being true.  When we do not know something, we say,"I don't know."  Now, when a theist comes here.. attempting to answer problems with the bible we expect certain conditions to be met, those conditions surround the intellectual validity of their claims

Is it logical?

is it reasonable?

What evidence does it have?

I, and likely a lot of people here, generally ask the same questions about every single claim.. not just a god claim.  We expect this and desire this, in fact.. its why we are here in the first place.  So what intellectual value do you have to offer.. and if you don't have anything to offer.. why are you even bothering trying to explain without the answers we require?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 20, 2009, 09:38:09 PM
By the way, Omen, I have no interest in a tit for tat conversation,

Tit for tat conversation would be a kind of dismissive exchange of insults that go back and forth, not really accomplishing anything.

However, that isn't happening here.  I am making clear what requirements would be satisfactory for belief.  I am asking questions because the intellectual and logical implications of those questions are important to believing at all.

The problem is exactly what you accuse me of below:

Quote
two people trying to use a one way communication method.  Thanks but no thanks.

I'm sorry, but the only person engaging in one sided communication here is you.  You are attempting to dictate what should be believed, yet you are seemingly entirely incapable of explaining why it should be believed.  When you are challenged on your baseless assertions, you back track into,"I am not defending it just commenting honestly as I know how." Which is even worse considering some of the gross ignorance you've displayed not only on the bible but seemingly history as well.

What did you expect?  To be free to be able to make up anything without challenge ( how is that any different from imagination and imaginary concepts)?  Is it cruel to ask you to be responsible?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: joshbl56 on July 20, 2009, 10:11:54 PM
I'm confused, is Omen a theist or not?

By the way, Omen, I have no interest in a tit for tat conversation,

Tit for tat conversation would be a kind of dismissive exchange of insults that go back and forth, not really accomplishing anything.

However, that isn't happening here.  I am making clear what requirements would be satisfactory for belief.  I am asking questions because the intellectual and logical implications of those questions are important to believing at all.

The problem is exactly what you accuse me of below:

Quote
two people trying to use a one way communication method.  Thanks but no thanks.

I'm sorry, but the only person engaging in one sided communication here is you.  You are attempting to dictate what should be believed, yet you are seemingly entirely incapable of explaining why it should be believed.  When you are challenged on your baseless assertions, you back track into,"I am not defending it just commenting honestly as I know how." Which is even worse considering some of the gross ignorance you've displayed not only on the bible but seemingly history as well.

What did you expect?  To be free to be able to make up anything without challenge ( how is that any different from imagination and imaginary concepts)?  Is it cruel to ask you to be responsible?

Hey, slow down a little, your starting to sounds angry.
Why are you even trying to defend it to others?   I am not defending it just commenting honestly as I know how.

If you don't know why how or what.. why are you commenting at all?

See, we actually give a shit that what we claim to believe has some relevancy to being true.  When we do not know something, we say,"I don't know."  Now, when a theist comes here.. attempting to answer problems with the bible we expect certain conditions to be met, those conditions surround the intellectual validity of their claims

Is it logical?

is it reasonable?

What evidence does it have?

I, and likely a lot of people here, generally ask the same questions about every single claim.. not just a god claim.  We expect this and desire this, in fact.. its why we are here in the first place.  So what intellectual value do you have to offer.. and if you don't have anything to offer.. why are you even bothering trying to explain without the answers we require?

It could be worse. S/he could just throw in some mumbo-jumbo and think its right no matter what.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: none on July 20, 2009, 10:13:48 PM
Hey, slow down a little, your starting to sounds angry.
thanks but no thanks.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: joshbl56 on July 20, 2009, 10:18:40 PM
Hey, slow down a little, your starting to sounds angry.
thanks but no thanks.

oh well, I tried. Let the fighting continue!
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: none on July 20, 2009, 10:21:59 PM
oh well, I tried. Let the fighting continue!
joshbl56:
Quote
What did you expect?  To be free to be able to make up anything without challenge ( how is that any different from imagination and imaginary concepts)?  Is it cruel to ask you to be responsible?
well is it?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 20, 2009, 10:25:03 PM
I'm sorry, but the only person engaging in one sided communication here is you.  You are attempting to dictate what should be believed, yet you are seemingly entirely incapable of explaining why it should be believed.  I have made brief statements of what I believe.  Again, I didn't expect to convince anyone of anything religious as that would be a ridiculous thing to do on this thread. Your assumptions about me personally make the conversation a waste of time.  When does intelligence use put downs to make points?  It was nice talking to Seppuku, he didn't make that type of assumptions and wasn't releasing an emotional head of steam.  That was a nice change from what happens so many times in forums and why I generally avoid them and why I will again now.  Too bad.  I like good conversation.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: none on July 20, 2009, 10:34:29 PM
...I like good conversation.
go figure...
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Operator_A25 on July 20, 2009, 11:39:27 PM
I'm sorry, but the only person engaging in one sided communication here is you. You are attempting to dictate what should be believed, yet you are seemingly entirely incapable of explaining why it should be believed.  I have made brief statements of what I believe. Again, I didn't expect to convince anyone of anything religious as that would be a ridiculous thing to do on this thread. Your assumptions about me personally make the conversation a waste of time. When does intelligence use put downs to make points? IT was nice talking to Seppuku, he didn't make that type of assumptions and wasn't releasing an emotional head of steam.  That was a nice change from what happens so many times in forums and why I generally avoid them and why I will again now.  Too bad.  I like good conversation.

JudiBug, the forum rules state the following:

Quote
Discussion threads are for discussion of the topic at hand, not simply advertising one's opinions. As such, forum members are expected to back up assertions they make, and not engage in stonewalling, shifting goalposts, changing the subject, or employing similar tactics to avoid addressing points raised against them.

If all you plan to do is make "brief statements of what you believe" with no intention of backing up assertions you are making in the process then I interpret that as a violation of the rule I've quoted above.

From where I sit, it looks to me like you make some statements of belief and then, when challenged and you realize that you can't back them up with any kind of actual reasoning, you resort to simple denial, or you claim to know someone else that knows the answer or you just get upset and point out that you'd rather talk to someone else.

Perhaps you have mistaken this place as a forum for casual conversation.  I can assure you it is not and the forum members can be quite aggressive on both sides of the equation.  You need to be prepared for this.  You do not get to pick and choose with whom you converse here.

If you expect to continue posting on this forum I think you ought to familiarize yourself with the rules (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?action=rules) before posting.  You need to be prepared to explain your comments and answer tough questions about them here.  Don't expect forum members to coddle you or accept your statements at face value, because they, very likely, will not.

We also have available to you the Notes for New Members (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=3998.0) and Introduction to this forum for Christians (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=228.0).

Regards,

Mod A25
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Seppuku on July 21, 2009, 02:36:09 AM
I know that Christians are different from each other, and sometimes generalisations can be wrong, but I'm going to have to agree with some of the Omen's sentiments, there are logical issues with the bible and God and this place being the way it is, you'll be called out on that, after all this is a debate forum and debate with two opposing sides can often get heated, sometimes very heated, but I've never seen anybody disrespect anybody unless they've been disrespected themselves (like dishonesty), sometimes there are misunderstandings. But because things are heated, there's no reason to back down, I've had heated debates with friends, but afterwards we still respect each other.

Though I often get heated myself, I thought I'd try and stop myself from getting so and try to have a calmer debate, because sometimes if a debate gets heated, people can just get defensive, thus you go nowhere, though it's not always the case.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 21, 2009, 04:37:32 AM
No problem Seppuku.  I understand.  Thanks for cutting me some slack.  I'm really not even sure what hit me, so will mosey on out.  I like things nice and easy, and this forum isn't tame enough for me.  Thanks and forgive me for any mistakes.                                                                                                                                                                                                   .
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Seppuku on July 21, 2009, 05:43:40 AM
Fairplay dude. ;) Sorry the kind of debate here isn't the kind of thing you like. So no worries, heated debate is not for everyone.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 21, 2009, 07:18:10 AM
Peace.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 21, 2009, 08:15:43 AM
I'm sorry, but the only person engaging in one sided communication here is you.  You are attempting to dictate what should be believed, yet you are seemingly entirely incapable of explaining why it should be believed.  I have made brief statements of what I believe.  Again, I didn't expect to convince anyone of anything religious as that would be a ridiculous thing to do on this thread. Your assumptions about me personally make the conversation a waste of time.  When does intelligence use put downs to make points?

I certainly spoke to you as if you were a child, but that isn't making points by 'putting you down'.  I made points as they relate to what you're claiming and how you claim it, I then asked questions and provided counter points.  I expected you to be a participant in a discussion of ideas between consenting adults, able and responsible to not only validate your own claims but acknowledge where agreements/disagreements occur.  Yet, we couldn't even get you to do that.  You whined and complained that it was too hard, too many questions, and it wasn't fair that we take you to task over the crap you make up.

Quote
 It was nice talking to Seppuku, he didn't make that type of assumptions and wasn't releasing an emotional head of steam.

You mean he wasn't asking you biting questions and taking you to task over not only your claims.. but the consequences/implications of your claims.

Quote
 That was a nice change from what happens so many times in forums and why I generally avoid them and why I will again now.  Too bad.  I like good conversation.

So let's see, if inquiry, open discussion, and criticism are not part of what you consider a good conversation then what you consider a 'good conversation' must be entirely the opposite.

Non-questioning, closed minded, and uncritical acceptance of every utterance that comes out of your mouth in a one sided dictated lecture.  Is this what you mean by 'good' conversation?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: screwtape on July 21, 2009, 09:06:01 AM
JudiBug,

Here (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=4259.0) is a link to the FAQ for using the quote blocks.  Please avail yourself of it and use them.  It will make your posts much easier to read.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 21, 2009, 09:06:14 AM
As I have said, my statements/comments are what I believe.  I didn't go into an explanation because I figured it wouldn't be accepted, so what would be the point?  I figured probably what I would say would have been heard before.  I am not trying to convince anybody to change their beliefs, so what would be the point?  I didn't use the word "fair".  That I like peace is my preference and a fact not a complaint.  As such I have not made up anything.  You judged me and you still are, for making points?  Again intelligent, logical points are stated by logical statements based on fact not opinion and therefore need no put downs.  I do not dictate to adults.  I do not want nor need non-questioning, closed minded, and uncritical acceptance of every utterance that comes out of my mouth.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 21, 2009, 09:08:26 AM
Thank you screwtape.  The link did not come through, which I am sure you will fix if it can be.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: screwtape on July 21, 2009, 09:25:23 AM
Thank you screwtape.  The link did not come through, which I am sure you will fix if it can be.

I logged out and tested it and it worked.  I am not sure what is wrong.  Did you click on the word "Here"?

try this:

-->click me (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=4259.0)<--
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 21, 2009, 09:35:53 AM
I apologize screwtape, I didn't see that here was a link.  I found it both ways you put it.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 21, 2009, 10:11:42 AM
Quote
I found it both ways you put it.  Thanks.

Thanks again.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 21, 2009, 11:00:51 AM
As I have said, my statements/comments are what I believe.  I didn't go into an explanation because I figured it wouldn't be accepted, so what would be the point?

It doesn't get much more contradictory then this.

We demand explanations that are logical and rational for every single claim made, whether it has to do with a god or not.

We won't accept something unless it actually has a rational explanation behind it.

You claim that.. you didn't go into explanation because you figured it wouldn't be accepted... yet if its not going to be accepted without explanation..again.. why are you doing this?

My problem, ultimately, is that your claims defy explanation.  That they are in themselves the very antithesis to what is a valid explanation at all.  That your claims present such a convoluted entanglement of nonsense and emotional pleading, that they neither can be valid arguments for anything or valid explanations for anything.  Yet, I try to give you the benefit of the doubt.. so i ask you questions anyway trying to get you to explain.

Quote
 I figured probably what I would say would have been heard before.  I am not trying to convince anybody to change their beliefs, so what would be the point?  I didn't use the word "fair".  That I like peace is my preference and a fact not a complaint.

Got to love the irony.

You are essentially admitting that you want nothing more then silent audience that does nothing but agrees with every pointless unexplained assertion you make.

Quote
 As such I have not made up anything.  You judged me and you still are, for making points?

A baseless assertion isn't a point.  I'm judging you not only by your lack of explanation, but your tendency to demonize the open inquiry into your own ideas.  You're turning the entire process of learning and understanding into something you are against.  Your position is inevitably the position of the bigot, the intolerant, the uneducated, the dictator, and the fascist

This is the process of defending religious belief, because religion in and of itself lacks any truth in its own claims.  I'm just amazed that you think this is ok or acceptable.

Quote
 Again intelligent, logical points are stated by logical statements based on fact not opinion and therefore need no put downs.

You havn't provided any facts.

You have made baseless unsupported assertions that are often in contradiction to each other, I even responded countless times pointing this out and asking you to explain.

You didn't and in place of that you whined about being treated poorly.

Quote
 I do not dictate to adults.

Like it or not, this is the position you are taking when you condemn the exercise of free inquiry.  You have made a mockery of open discussion by making excuses for the reason you can't explain anything you claim and demonizing people who bother to take you to task over it.

The only meaningful reply now is to simply take responsibility, yet you can't even do that.  In one single post you both further admit that you want nothing more then a silent unchallenging audience to dictate your every claim too.. but at the same time claiming you're not doing it?

Right.

Quote
 I do not want nor need non-questioning, closed minded, and uncritical acceptance of every utterance that comes out of my mouth.

This is exactly what you are doing.

You don't like the fact that I ask questions and demand explanations, so in response.. you avoid providing an intellectual defense of your claims and instead demonize me for bothering to ask.  This is the very definition of what religious apologia does.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 21, 2009, 12:20:05 PM
Omen, are you telling me I need to supply the reason I believe as I do?  I don't remember your asking that.
The reason I believe in the Bible is this.   In the old testament there are many prophecies about Christ and they came about as was prophesied.  The reason I believe in this God is that the Bible gives an account of how the world began which, though it is not about science, it comes close to how science says the order of life began.  One scientist's explanation of the big bang brought out a new point, he believes that earth was not solid as it is now.  I'm not very good with the quoting tag yet or I would have used it.  The method I found that works is slow.  How about let's take one point at a time.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: joshbl56 on July 21, 2009, 12:49:38 PM
oh well, I tried. Let the fighting continue!
joshbl56:
Quote
What did you expect?  To be free to be able to make up anything without challenge ( how is that any different from imagination and imaginary concepts)?  Is it cruel to ask you to be responsible?
well is it?

no, not really, but there is no reason to make it an all out fight for something as small as religion.

Omen, are you telling me I need to supply the reason I believe as I do?  I don't remember your asking that.
The reason I believe in the Bible is this.   In the old testament there are many prophecies about Christ and they came about as was prophesied.  The reason I believe in this God is that the Bible gives an account of how the world began which, though it is not about science, it comes close to how science says the order of life began.  One scientist's explanation of the big bang brought out a new point, he believes that earth was not solid as it is now.  I'm not very good with the quoting tag yet or I would have used it.  The method I found that works is slow.  How about let's take one point at a time.

You do know that both the old testaments and new testaments are all written right? So the new testaments is the sequel to the old testaments even though modern day Christians don't take what it says into account. Are you saying that just because it foreshadows Jesus that it must be right?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 21, 2009, 01:04:24 PM
Omen, are you telling me I need to supply the reason I believe as I do?  I don't remember your asking that.
The reason I believe in the Bible is this.   In the old testament there are many prophecies about Christ and they came about as was prophesied.  The reason I believe in this God is that the Bible gives an account of how the world began which, though it is not about science, it comes close to how science says the order of life began.  One scientist's explanation of the big bang brought out a new point, he believes that earth was not solid as it is now.  I'm not very good with the quoting tag yet or I would have used it.  The method I found that works is slow.  How about let's take one point at a time.

Quote
You do know that both the old testaments and new testaments are all written right? So the new testaments is the sequel to the old testaments even though modern day Christians don't take what it says into account. Are you saying that just because it foreshadows Jesus that it must be right?

I'm saying that the old foreshadowing the new is a good reason to believe in Christ.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Aaron123 on July 21, 2009, 01:28:41 PM
Quote
In the old testament there are many prophecies about Christ and they came about as was prophesied.

To rip off Religulous here... Have you ever considered that the writers of the New Testaments had access to the Old Testament, and made their stories fit the prophecies?


Quote
The reason I believe in this God is that the Bible gives an account of how the world began which, though it is not about science, it comes close to how science says the order of life began.

No.  The bible says that light, "day and night", and plants were created before the sun came into being, or any sort of stars, for that matter.  And that the sky is an "expanse/firmament" that seperates the water on the ground from the water above(?!).  Apparently, people during bibletimes thought the earth was set up like a snow globe.

And that's without getting into that the bible says that the earth as we know it was created in less than a weeks' time...

EDIT: Almost forgot this; but Genesis can't even agree with itself on the order of events.  Genesis 1 have humans created last, with male and female done at the same time.  Genesis 2 have a human male created before animals were made, and then a female human was made a little later.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: none on July 21, 2009, 07:14:04 PM
oh well, I tried. Let the fighting continue!
joshbl56:
Quote
What did you expect?  To be free to be able to make up anything without challenge ( how is that any different from imagination and imaginary concepts)?  Is it cruel to ask you to be responsible?
well is it?

no, not really, but there is no reason to make it an all out fight for something as small as religion.
no biggie its just a life and death fight.
mommas drowning thier children because god told them to.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 21, 2009, 07:27:42 PM
  Have you ever considered that the writers of the New Testaments had access to the Old Testament, and made their stories fit the prophecies?

I have considered both sides of situation.

Here is something to think about which is very complex.  It concerns a prophecy in the old testament.

Daniel 9:24-25 (New International Version)

 24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

 25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree  to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

"Exactly what is meant by “seventy sevens”? The phrase by itself is ambiguous, but taken in context the meaning is clear. Daniel’s prayer in verses 3-19 of the chapter refers to the fulfillment of a specific seventy-year period, the seventy years of the Babylonian captivity (as prophesied by Jeremiah). Daniel received the seventy sevens prophecy in response to his prayer. The prophecy foretold a period of seven times seventy yet to come, or seventy seven-year periods. Seventy seven-year periods equals 490 years.

The prophecy goes on to say that “from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven sevens (49) and sixty-two sevens (434). . . . Then after the sixty-two sevens the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing.”

Nebuchadnezzar had Jerusalem dismantled around 587 BC after having to put down two rebellions there in less than 10 years. At the time this prophecy was given, Jerusalem still lay in ruins. According to the prophecy, from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem there would be seven seven-year periods and sixty-two more seven-year periods—or 483 years—until the Messiah would show up. After the culmination of the 62 seven-year periods, or after 483rd year, the Messiah would be cut off.

Both the ancient Hebrews to whom Daniel was writing and the ancient Babylonians to whom he was subservient (Daniel supposedly having been written in Babylon during the latter half of the 6th century BC) used a 360-day year.

So, 483 years x 360 days = 173,880 days. This is the equivalent of 476 years and 25 days using our modern Gregorian calendar’s 365.24219879-day year.

As for our starting point, the Persian Emperor Artaxerxes Longimanus (who ruled Persia from 464-424 BC) issued the edict to rebuild Jerusalem sometime during the Hebrew month of Nisan in the 20th year of his reign, or 444 BC (Nehemiah 2:1-8). The month of Nisan fell between February 27 (Nisan 1) and March 28 (Nisan 30) of that year according to our modern Gregorian calendar.

Now, 173,880 days from February 27 - March 28, 444 BC, lands us at March 24 - April 22, AD 33.

According to this prophecy, the Messiah would show up, present Himself as Messiah to the nation and then be “cut off” some time between March 24 and April 22, AD 33. Jesus Christ presented Himself to the nation of Israel on Palm Sunday, March 27, was crucified four days later on April 1, or “Preparation Day” (the annual day on which the Passover Lamb was slain), and rose from the dead on Sunday, April 3, AD 33, all within our 30-day range of dates.

The prophecy then goes on to say that subsequent to the Messiah being “cut off,” “the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.” Within one generation of Christ’s crucifixion, Titus razed Jerusalem and destroyed the temple.

There is some debate about the exact date of the decree that began the 483 years. There is also debate as to whether the days should be counted on our modern 365-day calendars, or the 360-day lunar calendar that was normally used in ancient times. Whichever the case, Daniel's prophecy concludes very close to the time Jesus Christ was being crucified in Jerusalem. If we knew all the exact dates of Daniel's prophecy and timing, we would find it would land exactly on the very day of Christ's death. Through God revealing it to him, the Prophet Daniel predicted the very day of Christ's death—over 400 years before it occurred."

http://www.gotquestions.org/seventy-sevens.html

Think about this and let me know what you think.

Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Aaron123 on July 21, 2009, 08:17:13 PM
Again, you're using the bible to prove the bible.  You've shown me nothing that would show we're dealing with actual history.  All you've shown is that someone might've paid attention to the math when they wrote the story of Jesus.  If you want to show this is actual history, you've got to do better than that.  For example, try finding contemporaneous account of zombies walking the earth during that time(as decribed in Matthew 27: 50-53).
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 21, 2009, 08:23:21 PM
Again, you're using the bible to prove the bible.  You've shown me nothing that would show we're dealing with actual history.  All you've shown is that someone might've paid attention to the math when they wrote the story of Jesus.  If you want to show this is actual history, you've got to do better than that.  For example, try finding contemporaneous account of zombies walking the earth during that time(as decribed in Matthew 27: 50-53).

Can you give me an example of a contemporaneous writing of that time period?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: none on July 21, 2009, 08:30:19 PM
people didn't know how to write before during and after jesus....
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 21, 2009, 08:45:09 PM
Again, you're using the bible to prove the bible.  You've shown me nothing that would show we're dealing with actual history.  All you've shown is that someone might've paid attention to the math when they wrote the story of Jesus.  If you want to show this is actual history, you've got to do better than that.  For example, try finding contemporaneous account of zombies walking the earth during that time(as decribed in Matthew 27: 50-53).

Can you give me an example of a contemporaneous writing of that time period?

What anyone wrote at that time. You mean specific works? How much of your education are others responsible for in this discussion?

Interjection complete.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Timtheskeptic on July 21, 2009, 08:50:22 PM
people didn't know how to write before during and after jesus....

exactly. Which is why i wouldn't bother listening to craps like the Bible or the koran.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: none on July 21, 2009, 08:52:32 PM
the problem now seems to be people don't know how to read.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: joshbl56 on July 21, 2009, 10:00:16 PM
oh well, I tried. Let the fighting continue!
joshbl56:
Quote
What did you expect?  To be free to be able to make up anything without challenge ( how is that any different from imagination and imaginary concepts)?  Is it cruel to ask you to be responsible?
well is it?

no, not really, but there is no reason to make it an all out fight for something as small as religion.
no biggie its just a life and death fight.
mommas drowning thier children because god told them to.

religion has nothing to do with life, just the afterlife. As for the drowning children, that's cause she's crazy.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 21, 2009, 10:40:57 PM
What anyone wrote at that time. You mean specific works? How much of your education are others responsible for in this discussion?

The point is that there probably isn't much in the way of contemporaneous writing of that time period that still exists.  I think contemporaneous writings are just a tired excuse used to cover for the fact very few people even know anything contemporaneous to the Bible.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Aaron123 on July 21, 2009, 10:47:07 PM
We have lots of historical records from that place in that time period.  You'd think if zombies rose from the grave, we'd have dozens(if not hundreds) of records pointing to it, but there isn't any.  Heck, it barely get mentioned in the bible(only one gospel, and briefy at that).  I guess Matthew was the only one geeky enough to think zombies were worth mentioning.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 21, 2009, 10:51:57 PM
EDIT: Almost forgot this; but Genesis can't even agree with itself on the order of events.  Genesis 1 have humans created last, with male and female done at the same time.  Genesis 2 have a human male created before animals were made, and then a female human was made a little later.

Genesis 2 does not state that a human male was created before animals were made.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 21, 2009, 10:57:17 PM
We have lots of historical records from that place in that time period.  You'd think if zombies rose from the grave, we'd have dozens(if not hundreds) of records pointing to it, but there isn't any.  Heck, it barely get mentioned in the bible(only one gospel, and briefy at that).  I guess Matthew was the only one geeky enough to think zombies were worth mentioning.

Name a historical record during that time period.  I would imagine that were a lot of records from that time that haven't lasted to this day.  Two thousand years is long enough for anything to get lost.  
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: William on July 21, 2009, 11:05:19 PM
Two thousand years is long enough for anything to get lost.  

Or to get found  ;)
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Aaron123 on July 21, 2009, 11:08:19 PM
EDIT: Almost forgot this; but Genesis can't even agree with itself on the order of events.  Genesis 1 have humans created last, with male and female done at the same time.  Genesis 2 have a human male created before animals were made, and then a female human was made a little later.

Genesis 2 does not state that a human male was created before animals were made.

Genesis 2(starting at verse 5)[1]
At the time God made Earth and Heaven, before any grasses or shrubs had sprouted from the ground—God hadn't yet sent rain on Earth, nor was there anyone around to work the ground (the whole Earth was watered by underground springs)—God formed Man out of dirt from the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life. The Man came alive—a living soul!

(This says man was created before grass even existed!)


Verses18-22: God said, "It's not good for the Man to be alone; I'll make him a helper, a companion." So God formed from the dirt of the ground all the animals of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the Man to see what he would name them. Whatever the Man called each living creature, that was its name. The Man named the cattle, named the birds of the air, named the wild animals; but he didn't find a suitable companion. God put the Man into a deep sleep. As he slept he removed one of his ribs and replaced it with flesh. God then used the rib that he had taken from the Man to make Woman and presented her to the Man.

This is clearly stating animal were created after man, and that woman was created only after man figured that none of the animals were a "suitable companion" for him.

 1. Using The Message version, because it's easier to copy/paste without all the footnotes
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Aaron123 on July 21, 2009, 11:21:24 PM
We have lots of historical records from that place in that time period.  You'd think if zombies rose from the grave, we'd have dozens(if not hundreds) of records pointing to it, but there isn't any.  Heck, it barely get mentioned in the bible(only one gospel, and briefy at that).  I guess Matthew was the only one geeky enough to think zombies were worth mentioning.

Name a historical record during that time period.  I would imagine that were a lot of records from that time that haven't lasted to this day.  Two thousand years is long enough for anything to get lost.  

 Little overview (http://www.pbs.org/empires/romans/empire/historians.html)

Josephus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus) is a well-known historians of the time, and we have some of his most (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wars_of_the_Jews)  important (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiquities_of_the_Jews) works today.

Other know historians of the 1st century[1]:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aufidius_Bassus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluvius_Rufus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suetonius
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintus_Curtius_Rufus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dio_Chrysostom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_the_Elder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabius_Rusticus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justus_of_Tiberias
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus_Labienus_(historian) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus_Labienus_(historian))
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerius_Maximus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mucianus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolaus_of_Damascus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asconius_Pedianus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutarch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thallus_(historian) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thallus_(historian))
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Velleius_Paterculus

Look up individual entries for list of works.
 1. Shamelessly using wikipedia as the source
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 21, 2009, 11:35:11 PM
Aaron, you're right about Gen 2, it doesn't sound the same as Gen 1.  Since you brought up Josephus, I have the book and will quote some from it, but it will take me awhile since I'm not a fast typist.


Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 22, 2009, 12:10:29 AM
Josephus, 10.11.2 footnote

"Since Josephus here explains the seven prophetic times which were to pass over Nebuchadnessar (Dan. 4:19) to be seven years, we thence learn how he most probably understood those other parallel phrases, of "a time, times, and half" (Antiq. 7:15) of so many prophetic years also, though he lets us know by his hint at the interpretation of the seventy weeks, as belonging to the fourth monarchy, and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in the days of Josephus (2.7), that he did not think those years to be bare years, but rather days for years: by which reckoning, and by which alone, could seventy weeks, or four hundred and ninety days, reach to the age of Josephus.  But as to the truth of those seventy years banishment of Nebuchadnezzar from men, and his living so long among the beasts, the very small remains we have anywhere else of Nebuchadnezzar prevent our expectation of any other full account of it.  So far we know by Ptolemy's canon, a contemporary record, as well as by Josephus presently, that he reigned in all forty-three years, that is eight years after we meet with any account of his actions; one of the last of which was the thirteen years seige of Tyre (Antiq. 11.11); where yet the Old Latin has but three years and ten months: yet were his actions before so remarkable, both in sacred and profane authors, that such a vacuity of eight years at the least, at the latter end of his reign, much be allowed to agree very well with Daniels accounts, that after a seven years' brutal life, he might be brought to reason, and to the exercise of his royal authority, for one whole year at least before his death."

So of all the writings available during that time and later we have Josephus and Ptolemy.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Aaron123 on July 22, 2009, 12:34:51 AM
I've tried rereading that a couple times, but it tells me nothing about how the events in the gospels are factual history.  Are you going to provide actual evidence of the historicality of Jesus or not?  Given that he is, supposely, one of the most important person that ever existed, it should be easy to show that he existed(at a bare minimum, you'd think god would ensure that the gospels addressed this point.  This website uses the example of moving a mountian or transcribing the value of PI; surely there would've been dozens of other ways to make the gospels verifiable)
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 22, 2009, 12:42:55 AM
I've tried rereading that a couple times, but it tells me nothing about how the events in the gospels are factual history.  Are you going to provide actual evidence of the historicality of Jesus or not?  Given that he is, supposely, one of the most important person that ever existed, it should be easy to show that he existed(at a bare minimum, you'd think god would ensure that the gospels addressed this point.  This website uses the example of moving a mountian or transcribing the value of PI; surely there would've been dozens of other ways to make the gospels verifiable)

Why do you ask me to do what you can't do yourself?  Can you disprove them?  By the way the book "Josephus" (William Whiston, A.M) mainly covers the old testament.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Aaron123 on July 22, 2009, 12:48:03 AM
I've tried rereading that a couple times, but it tells me nothing about how the events in the gospels are factual history.  Are you going to provide actual evidence of the historicality of Jesus or not?  Given that he is, supposely, one of the most important person that ever existed, it should be easy to show that he existed(at a bare minimum, you'd think god would ensure that the gospels addressed this point.  This website uses the example of moving a mountian or transcribing the value of PI; surely there would've been dozens of other ways to make the gospels verifiable)

Why do you ask me to do what you can't do yourself?  Can you disprove them?  By the way the book "Josephus" (William Whiston, A.M) mainly covers the old testament.

This is what's called Shifting the Burden of Proof.  It's not up to me to prove a negative.  You're the one making the extraordinary claim, it's up to you to provide the extraordinary evidences.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 22, 2009, 12:54:15 AM
I have the only proof there is, the Bible.  If you choose not to believe it, that's up to you.  It is you that makes the claim that the gospel are invalid.  Is that not an atheists' claim?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 22, 2009, 12:58:52 AM
Lots of American records have disappeared including most of the 1890 census.  I guess that mean that only those listed existed during that time.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Timtheskeptic on July 22, 2009, 01:32:08 AM
I have the only proof there is, the Bible.  

That is the most saddest, pathetic excuse for proof. "A book says it, therefore i believe it, that settles it." I have given up hope for humanity. If a book is what it takes to get you to believe... I really pity you.

Quote
If you choose not to believe it, that's up to you.  

Why should a book be sufficient enough for you to believe?

Quote
It is you that makes the claim that the gospel are invalid. Is that not an atheists' claim?

Because the things that are written are not by eyewitnesses or anything. There is no evidence for anything outside of the Bible to support your claims. You claim they are true, so prove it.

Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JesusHChrist on July 22, 2009, 01:32:19 AM
I have the only proof there is, the Bible.  If you choose not to believe it, that's up to you.  It is you that makes the claim that the gospel are invalid.  Is that not an atheists' claim?

Why is the bible "proof" and the Book of Mormon or the Qu'ran not? What made you choose the bible as the "correct" holy book?

Step back a step...
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 22, 2009, 01:49:33 AM
Because the things that are written are not by eyewitnesses or anything. There is no evidence for anything outside of the Bible to support your claims. You claim they are true, so prove it.

I can't do more than I already have.  So, ban me.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 22, 2009, 01:54:29 AM
Why is the bible "proof" and the Book of Mormon or the Qu'ran not? What made you choose the bible as the "correct" holy book?

Step back a step...

Because the Old Testament prophecies about Christ.  I didn't believe it for a long time, but it was that that finally convinced me.  You don't have to accept it, no one does, but I do.  It's as simple as that.   
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Timtheskeptic on July 22, 2009, 01:58:30 AM
Why is the bible "proof" and the Book of Mormon or the Qu'ran not? What made you choose the bible as the "correct" holy book?

Step back a step...

Because the Old Testament prophecies about Christ.  I didn't believe it for a long time, but it was that that finally convinced me.  You don't have to accept it, no one does, but I do.  It's as simple as that.   

How did it convince you? How did the Bible convince you that it's all true?

Because the things that are written are not by eyewitnesses or anything. There is no evidence for anything outside of the Bible to support your claims. You claim they are true, so prove it.

I can't do more than I already have.  So, ban me.


No one's going to ban you. And it seems to me that you're trying to weasel your way out of this. Are you scared?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 22, 2009, 02:06:34 AM
How did it convince you? How did the Bible convince you that it's all true?

The pieces fell into place for me and I got the whole picture, or enough.  That's the only way I can explain it.

Because the things that are written are not by eyewitnesses or anything. There is no evidence for anything outside of the Bible to support your claims. You claim they are true, so prove it.

I can't do more than I already have.  So, ban me.


Why leave?  I'm just a tad tired of being called names.  It gets old after awhile.  And I don't know... why stay where it's impossible to go further and have evidence to report either way?  

Do you really think you guys make such good company?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: William on July 22, 2009, 02:22:51 AM
Because the Old Testament prophecies about Christ.  I didn't believe it for a long time, but it was that that finally convinced me.  You don't have to accept it, no one does, but I do.  It's as simple as that.  

Judibug, are you aware that the bible has been "backfilled" with a lot of ideas that make it look like prophecies were fulfilled?

The Codex Sinaiticus, a Christian bible dated from the fourth century, inconveniently left out references to the resurrection  :o
These must have been added later by people wanting the bible to make a better story.

Quote
The Codex, probably the oldest Bible we have, also has books which are missing from the Authorised Version that most Christians are familiar with today – and it does not have crucial verses relating to the Resurrection.
http://tothewire.wordpress.com/2009/07/06/the-oldest-known-bible-shows-alterations-to-todays-bible/

Think about the early Christians writing the gospels - they would have been very familiar with the Jewish scriptures and knew what they were competing with.  They wrote the gospels based on their prior knowledge of Jewish scripture. The fulfilling of prophecies is no more than weaving a familiar story using language and symbolism that they thought would appeal to the audience.

Edit: dated from the fourth century
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 22, 2009, 02:34:24 AM
William, I hadn't heard of the Codex before and I will have to research for myself.  Something I just found, the Catholic Encyclopedia, says, "The New Testament is complete...", but I've just started.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04085a.htm
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 22, 2009, 07:41:47 AM
Regarding the Codex Sinaiticus, I found an article on it which gives a little more information than what I saw last night while trying to see what was missing.

"Biblical scholars were thrilled at the news that the Codex, divided since 1844, was finally being put back together, albeit virtually. In the past, anyone wishing to examine the document first hand would have had to approach the British Library “on bended knee”, said Christopher Tuckett, a professor of New Testament studies at Oxford University. “To have it available just at the click of a button is fantastic. You could do in two seconds what would take hours and hours of flicking through the leaves,” he said.

The surviving copy of St Mark’s Gospel, handwritten in Greek more than 1,600 years ago, ends abruptly after Jesus’s disciples discover the empty tomb. Mark’s last line has them leaving in fear and makes no mention of the Resurrection.

“It cuts out the post-Resurrection stories,” Dr Garces said. “That’s a very odd way of ending a gospel.”"

My opinion is that if Bible scholars are thrilled, it can't be because there's much to worry about.  There are four gospels so three of them don't have anything missing.  This just adds more proof that nobody changed anything.

http://www.elginism.com/20080724/1193/
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: William on July 22, 2009, 07:51:12 AM
“It cuts out the post-Resurrection stories,” Dr Garces said. “That’s a very odd way of ending a gospel.”"

My opinion is that if Bible scholars are thrilled, it can't be because there's much to worry about.  

Er ... so where did Mark 16:9-20 come from?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 22, 2009, 07:59:17 AM
I would guess when they were making this copy they didn't finish copying Mark for some reason.  So far I haven't seen anything about why but I'm sure there will be sooner or later.  A copy of the original is on line but it's in Greek. 
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 22, 2009, 08:11:05 AM
Omen, are you telling me I need to supply the reason I believe as I do?

Anytime and always for every single claim you make, you have to be able to explain logically how/why your response is even in the same playground as an acceptable answer.  You also have to deal with the implications/consequences of your nonsense.

I asked for it here:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=7021.msg177475#msg177475

Here and pointed out that you never deliver on it:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=7021.msg177483#msg177483

Here and pointed out that you never deliver on it:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=7021.msg177484#msg177484

Here and pointed out that you never deliver on it:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=7021.msg177513#msg177513

Here and pointed out that you never deliver on it:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=7021.msg179393#msg179393

Here and pointed out that you never deliver on it:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=7021.msg179592#msg179592

Here and pointed out that you never deliver on it:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=7021.msg179605#msg179605

Here and pointed out that you never deliver on it:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=7021.msg179625#msg179625

Here and pointed out that you never deliver on it:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=7021.msg179630#msg179630

Here and pointed out that you never deliver on it:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=7021.msg179870#msg179870

Here and pointed out that you never deliver on it:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=7021.msg179980#msg179980

Quote
 I don't remember your asking that.

Right... and everytime you said it you just happen to plead as an excuse,"Well that's just what I believe.."  Any moron can believe anything.. what matters is the reason you believe it.

Quote
The reason I believe in the Bible is this.

I'm asking for far more then that, you are making assertions about the bible as if the bible should be interpreted in one manner or another.  Yet, you can't seem to explain WHY it should be interpreted in one manner or another.  When we ask you questions as to why it should be interpreted like that or why you interpret like that.. you just avoid them.

Worse, it has come to my attention that you are grossly negligent to any actual knowledge of what is in the bible itself.  You are seemingly entirely unaware of the majority of the old scriptures violent genocidal history as well as the fact that the Judaic messianic prophecy .. isn't the same as the Christian claimed messianic prophecy.

Hell, you even admitted you havn't studied the old testament.  Yet, here you are claiming to provide answers as if they explained anything at all.

Quote
  In the old testament there are many prophecies about Christ and they came about as was prophesied.

Many of which have NOTHING to do with Judaic Messianic Prophecy and rely more upon obscure/ambiguous references interposed upon the Passion narrative/myth.

I must AGAIN provide you the actual list of Judaic Messianic Prophecy, none of which is applicable to Jesus because Jesus doesn't even begin to fulfill it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology

In the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible)

Most of the textual requirements concerning the messiah, what he will do, and what will be done during his reign are located within the Book of Isaiah, although requirements are mentioned in other prophets as well.

    * The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
    * Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)
    * The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
    * He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10)
    * The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
    * Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
    * Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
    * He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
    * All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
    * Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
    * There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
    * All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
    * The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
    * He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
    * Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)
    * The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
    * The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
    * Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
    * The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
    * He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
    * Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
    * He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)


The vast majority of this has nothing to do with jesus and new testament writers MADE UP the second coming to explain away everything NOT fulfilled.

This ignores that prophecy in and of itself is obscure and relies primarily upon events being interpreted as fulfilled rather then literally fulfilled as predicted.

Quote
 The reason I believe in this God is that the Bible gives an account of how the world began which, though it is not about science, it comes close to how science says the order of life began.

Sorry darling, it isn't even in the same arena.

Light before there were stars.

Waters 'above' and 'below'

The moon isn't a light.

The disjointed and out of arrangement order of things created in the universe.

Earth doesn't sit on a pillar.

The earth isn't flat.

The sky is not a tent.

etc. etc. etc. etc.

There is no way to reach the conclusion you've made unless you are patently dishonest and grossly negligent on how you interpret the myth.  Yet, you can do that with any piece of fiction in existence.  Why even bother doing it with the bible?

Quote
 One scientist's explanation of the big bang brought out a new point, he believes that earth was not solid as it is now.

Nothing would be as 'solid' as it is 'now'.  Again, this doesn't correlate with your previous claim and it doesn't explain why you would ever make the effort to interpret in that way.  Your reasoning is so poor we can do the exact same thing with the book Green Eggs and Ham.

Quote
How about let's take one point at a time.

This is your own fault, you've made countless series of baseless claims.. not supporting anything often in a single paragraph.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Agga on July 22, 2009, 08:12:45 AM
I have the only proof there is, the Bible.  If you choose not to believe it, that's up to you.  It is you that makes the claim that the gospel are invalid.  Is that not an atheists' claim?

Hey JudiBug

I'm not an atheist but I stil can't see how the bible is proof of anything but the bible existing?

If there's proof that the bible itself is proof, then what is it?


Agga
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 22, 2009, 08:14:38 AM
My opinion is that if Bible scholars are thrilled, it can't be because there's much to worry about.  There are four gospels so three of them don't have anything missing.  This just adds more proof that nobody changed anything.

http://www.elginism.com/20080724/1193/

It does a lot more then that.

It not only removes bits and pieces of 1 gospel, it removes/adds bits a pieces everywhere.  It even adds entirely new books from the apocrypha.

Plus, if the addition and removal of dozens of scriptures related/not-related to isn't 'proof' that nobody changed anything.. then what exactly would be proof that someone changed something?

Think about how stupid what you just said is, the only qualifier for being evidence of changed biblical scripture is the fact that you have older scripture that is different from newer scripture.... which we have many times over past and present.  Yet, you dismiss it and say,"its proof nobody changed anything."

Do you know what a delusion is?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 22, 2009, 08:17:19 AM
Hey JudiBug

I'm not an atheist but I stil can't see how the bible is proof of anything but the bible existing?

If there's proof that the bible itself is proof, then what is it?


Agga

Hey Agga, to me THAT IT DOES EXIST when apparently not much else has is in itself remarkable.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: William on July 22, 2009, 08:18:26 AM
Quote
I would guess when they were making this copy they didn't finish copying Mark for some reason.

Judibug wait, I have an idea too  :)  You know how Lonestargrandad the OP had to wait for decades to find out about his allergy to aspirin ... well how about God is just too busy sometimes to complete all the things on his todo list.  So that's why somebody else had fill in the gaps in Mark's gospel and why the style is different to the rest of Mark   ;)
Quote
Mark 16:8 stops at the empty tomb without further explanation. The last twelve verses are missing from the oldest manuscripts of Mark's Gospel.  The style of these verses differs from the rest of Mark, suggesting they were a later addition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mark
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 22, 2009, 08:19:12 AM
My opinion is that if Bible scholars are thrilled, it can't be because there's much to worry about.  There are four gospels so three of them don't have anything missing.  This just adds more proof that nobody changed anything.

http://www.elginism.com/20080724/1193/

It does a lot more then that.

It not only removes bits and pieces of 1 gospel, it removes/adds bits a pieces everywhere.  It even adds entirely new books from the apocrypha.

Plus, if the addition and removal of dozens of scriptures related/not-related to isn't 'proof' that nobody changed anything.. then what exactly would be proof that someone changed something?

Think about how stupid what you just said is, the only qualifier for being evidence of changed biblical scripture is the fact that you have older scripture that is different from newer scripture.... which we have many times over past and present.  Yet, you dismiss it and say,"its proof nobody changed anything."

Do you know what a delusion is?

I'm not worried that you think I'm stupid.  I know what my IQ is.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 22, 2009, 08:20:41 AM
Quote
I would guess when they were making this copy they didn't finish copying Mark for some reason.

Judibug wait, I have an idea too  :)  You know how Lonestargrandad the OP had to wait for decades to find out about his allergy to aspirin ... well how about God is is just too busy sometimes to complete all the things on his todo list.  So that's why somebody else had fill in the gaps in Mark's gospel and why the style is different to the rest of Mark   ;)
Quote
Mark 16:8 stops at the empty tomb without further explanation. The last twelve verses are missing from the oldest manuscripts of Mark's Gospel.  The style of these verses differs from the rest of Mark, suggesting they were a later addition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mark

Interesting...
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Agga on July 22, 2009, 08:21:27 AM
Hey JudiBug

I'm not an atheist but I stil can't see how the bible is proof of anything but the bible existing?

If there's proof that the bible itself is proof, then what is it?


Agga

Hey Agga, to me THAT IT DOES EXIST when apparently not much else has is in itself remarkable.


Thanks, JudiBug, um, that clears up that little question of mine, I guess.

I think I'm going to start dropping acid again as when I'm tripping I can make more sense of things like this.



Agga
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 22, 2009, 08:32:04 AM
I have the only proof there is, the Bible.

This statement is pointless without describing how it matches the criteria for what is considered proof or evidence for the claim itself.

I could say moby dick is proof of a white whale.

Now how is that any more or less what you just claimed?

Quote
 If you choose not to believe it, that's up to you.

It has nothing to do with choice, if there is evidence for a claim.. then the claim can be accepted.  End of story.  The problem is that you are so intellectual removed from the process of systematic methodology of gaining knowledge, that you have to make your claim in terms that it can never be accepted by anyone that thinks critically or bothers to ask questions.

At no point can I walk into my driveway and choose to believe my car is actually a dragon, doing so won't make my car a dragon.  My car will still be the high mileage subcompact that I traded in my beloved truck for.

Quote
 It is you that makes the claim that the gospel are invalid.

False.

The gospel is nothing until its shown to be valid or invalid.

What you are doing is trying to shift the burden of proof upon someone else to prove a negative, its called a logical fallacy.  You are the one claiming the gospel is somehow related to reality, we don't know if it is or isn't.  We are asking you to show us how you know this.. but you do nothing but simply assert that it is and don't do anything to support your claim.

That being said there are things we DO know about the gospels:

1. We do not know the authors of many of them, the authors are often assumed.
2. They are representative of differing/competing creeds that originate out of the time period, many of which have differing claims.
3. Their are virtually no contemporary accounts.
4. Biblical historians DO NOT conclude what christians often assume biblical historians conclude, the entire process and knowledge base is often so far removed from what christians believe about the bible that they can't accept what many biblical historians already accept/know.  The bible is not a history book front to back.  Much of the passion narrative is assumed to be largely fictional.
5. Some of the gospels are rehashes/retellings of old testament stories.
6. Some of the gospels rely upon strange and often mistranslated portions of the old testament.
7. They were written life times after the events they attempt to describe.
8. Other competing creeds existed at the same time that were removed from the bible
9. Paul, the earliest writer actually known describes having to preach against other believers who claim to believe in jesus but have a different ideology.  Paul also never met jesus.  Pauls description of the tenants of chrsitainity are made in short references.. as if he were referencing what was already known to be legend even in his time.  His descriptions also are far removed from the gospel attempts to describe the same event.
10. Most of traditional beliefs regarding christian martyrs are exactly that.. nothing but traditional.

Quote
 Is that not an atheists' claim?

No.

An atheist only need make 1 statement.

"There is not sufficient reason or evidence to believe in your claim ( god )."

That's it.

Now, when we ask you to deliver that reason and evidence, you don't.  In place of that, you make convoluted and often child like explanations for something you can't even adequately provide evidence for as if it were true in the first place.  So not only is your 'explanation' so far removed from reality, but your evidence is so vague that it can't be evidence for anything.

Your claims are so lacking, that we can make the exact same claims right back at you for another religion and yet.. you would deem them silly.  The reason you don't believe in Islam, Hinduism, Jainism, etc.. is the reason we don't believe in your silly nonsense.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 22, 2009, 08:34:20 AM
My opinion is that if Bible scholars are thrilled, it can't be because there's much to worry about.  There are four gospels so three of them don't have anything missing.  This just adds more proof that nobody changed anything.

http://www.elginism.com/20080724/1193/

It does a lot more then that.

It not only removes bits and pieces of 1 gospel, it removes/adds bits a pieces everywhere.  It even adds entirely new books from the apocrypha.

Plus, if the addition and removal of dozens of scriptures related/not-related to isn't 'proof' that nobody changed anything.. then what exactly would be proof that someone changed something?

Think about how stupid what you just said is, the only qualifier for being evidence of changed biblical scripture is the fact that you have older scripture that is different from newer scripture.... which we have many times over past and present.  Yet, you dismiss it and say,"its proof nobody changed anything."

Do you know what a delusion is?

I'm not worried that you think I'm stupid.  I know what my IQ is.

Again, if you dismiss the only thing that would be evidence of a changed bible.. what exactly would you accept as evidence of a changed bible?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 22, 2009, 08:38:11 AM
Quote
I would guess when they were making this copy they didn't finish copying Mark for some reason.

Judibug wait, I have an idea too  :)  You know how Lonestargrandad the OP had to wait for decades to find out about his allergy to aspirin ... well how about God is just too busy sometimes to complete all the things on his todo list.  So that's why somebody else had fill in the gaps in Mark's gospel and why the style is different to the rest of Mark   ;)
Quote
Mark 16:8 stops at the empty tomb without further explanation. The last twelve verses are missing from the oldest manuscripts of Mark's Gospel.  The style of these verses differs from the rest of Mark, suggesting they were a later addition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mark

It is interesting that the words ""Let anyone with ears to hear, listen," is not found in early manuscripts.  If I remember correctly it was Paul who used "ear" analogies a lot.  Example:  Acts 28:27
"For the heart of this people is greatly fatted [The heart of this people is enfatted], and with ears they heard heavily, and they closed together their eyes, lest peradventure they see with eyes, and with ears hear, and by heart understand, and be converted, and I heal them."  I hope they are able to solve the question of who added that. But I would guess Paul.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 22, 2009, 08:44:48 AM
I have the only proof there is, the Bible.

This statement is pointless without describing how it matches the criteria for what is considered proof or evidence for the claim itself.

I could say moby dick is proof of a white whale.

Now how is that any more or less what you just claimed?

Quote
 If you choose not to believe it, that's up to you.

It has nothing to do with choice, if there is evidence for a claim.. then the claim can be accepted.  End of story.  The problem is that you are so intellectual removed from the process of systematic methodology of gaining knowledge, that you have to make your claim in terms that it can never be accepted by anyone that thinks critically or bothers to ask questions.

At no point can I walk into my driveway and choose to believe my car is actually a dragon, doing so won't make my car a dragon.  My car will still be the high mileage subcompact that I traded in my beloved truck for.

Quote
 It is you that makes the claim that the gospel are invalid.

False.

The gospel is nothing until its shown to be valid or invalid.

What you are doing is trying to shift the burden of proof upon someone else to prove a negative, its called a logical fallacy.  You are the one claiming the gospel is somehow related to reality, we don't know if it is or isn't.  We are asking you to show us how you know this.. but you do nothing but simply assert that it is and don't do anything to support your claim.

That being said there are things we DO know about the gospels:

1. We do not know the authors of many of them, the authors are often assumed.
2. They are representative of differing/competing creeds that originate out of the time period, many of which have differing claims.
3. Their are virtually no contemporary accounts.
4. Biblical historians DO NOT conclude what christians often assume biblical historians conclude, the entire process and knowledge base is often so far removed from what christians believe about the bible that they can't accept what many biblical historians already accept/know.  The bible is not a history book front to back.  Much of the passion narrative is assumed to be largely fictional.
5. Some of the gospels are rehashes/retellings of old testament stories.
6. Some of the gospels rely upon strange and often mistranslated portions of the old testament.
7. They were written life times after the events they attempt to describe.
8. Other competing creeds existed at the same time that were removed from the bible
9. Paul, the earliest writer actually known describes having to preach against other believers who claim to believe in jesus but have a different ideology.  Paul also never met jesus.  Pauls description of the tenants of chrsitainity are made in short references.. as if he were referencing what was already known to be legend even in his time.  His descriptions also are far removed from the gospel attempts to describe the same event.
10. Most of traditional beliefs regarding christian martyrs are exactly that.. nothing but traditional.

Quote
 Is that not an atheists' claim?

No.

An atheist only need make 1 statement.

"There is not sufficient reason or evidence to believe in your claim ( god )."

That's it.

Now, when we ask you to deliver that reason and evidence, you don't.  In place of that, you make convoluted and often child like explanations for something you can't even adequately provide evidence for as if it were true in the first place.  So not only is your 'explanation' so far removed from reality, but your evidence is so vague that it can't be evidence for anything.

Your claims are so lacking, that we can make the exact same claims right back at you for another religion and yet.. you would deem them silly.  The reason you don't believe in Islam, Hinduism, Jainism, etc.. is the reason we don't believe in your silly nonsense.

I'll bet you wouldn't choose to ignore the evidence that a hurricane was headed your way.  Good grief, such a somber group of people, how fun you are to be around you whilst you make your suspicions of something being terrible wrong going on.  It's a conspiracy, right?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: William on July 22, 2009, 08:47:13 AM
Quote
I would guess when they were making this copy they didn't finish copying Mark for some reason.

Judibug wait, I have an idea too  :)  You know how Lonestargrandad the OP had to wait for decades to find out about his allergy to aspirin ... well how about God is is just too busy sometimes to complete all the things on his todo list.  So that's why somebody else had fill in the gaps in Mark's gospel and why the style is different to the rest of Mark   ;)
Quote
Mark 16:8 stops at the empty tomb without further explanation. The last twelve verses are missing from the oldest manuscripts of Mark's Gospel.  The style of these verses differs from the rest of Mark, suggesting they were a later addition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mark

Interesting...

Mmmm... yes, more than interesting.  Especially since two other gospels were written based on Mark.  So parts of Mark were made up and the other gospels were made up on top of that - eeek  :o
Read here, Mark is ...
Quote
... believed by most modern scholars to be the first gospel written, on which the other two synoptic gospels, Matthew and Luke, were partially based.[
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mark

So potentially we are looking at a little plagiarist nest of part fact/part fiction - a sort of textual "chinese whispers" with people believing and then embellishing what others have made up before them  &)

No wonder the Jews are so cranky about all this manipulation and in particular the distortion of the messianic prophecies:
Quote
The Jews had one minor objection to the Christian Messiah, and that was the fact that he had been unsuccessful. Judaism had always taught that the Messiah would redeem Israel in a political sense, and Yeshua had failed to accomplish this. Instead, he had been scourged and humiliated like a common rebel, and finally crucified along with two ordinary thieves.

Answer for yourself: How could the career of Yeshua be reconciled with the glorious picture of the Messiah as taught by the Prophets of Israel?

The early Christians faced this dilemma, and, in justifying Yeshua as the Messiah, readily altered the entire concept. These new Messianic ideas were developed in by the writer of the Gospel of John, and even more so in the Epistles of Paul.
http://messianicprophecy.netfirms.com/transformation_of_messiah_to_christ.htm

Personally I think it's all just a load of codswallop.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 22, 2009, 08:53:38 AM
Hey JudiBug

I'm not an atheist but I stil can't see how the bible is proof of anything but the bible existing?

If there's proof that the bible itself is proof, then what is it?


Agga

Hey Agga, to me THAT IT DOES EXIST when apparently not much else has is in itself remarkable.


Thanks, JudiBug, um, that clears up that little question of mine, I guess.

I think I'm going to start dropping acid again as when I'm tripping I can make more sense of things like this.



Agga

I guess now I am responsible for Agga taking acid.  Gosh, thanks but not thanks.  Woman don't you know that stuff fries brain cells.  They can come back if not much damage has been done, but if so get used to saying 'duh'.  I worked in the field as a counselor and some of those people didn't have the sense to come in when it rained. 
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 22, 2009, 08:56:13 AM
I'll bet you wouldn't choose to ignore the evidence that a hurricane was headed your way.

A hurricane is a large weather phenomenom fueled by heat rising off ocean currents; it can be modeled, observed, tested, predicted, and the evidence for the consequences of the hurricane can equally be modeled, observed, tested, and predicted.

The bible?

Modeled? No.  Observed? No.  Tested? No.  Predicted? No.  Evidence? No  Consequences and implications? no? Explanations? No

Even at face value.. it is self evident that as an analogy a evidence of a hurricane is not comparable to claiming the bible is evidence of itself.

Quote
 Good grief, such a somber group of people, how fun you are to be around you whilst you make your suspicions of something being terrible wrong going on.  It's a conspiracy, right?

What are you even talking about, we are just asking for evidence.  You claim the bible is evidence.. which just begs MORE questions.. evidence of what? how do you know its evidence?

Which you always ignore.. and then you make a post like this idiotic one where you compare a hurricane which neatly falls into every single category of explanatory evidence that the bible fundamentally DOES NOT.  You ignore everything in the post you respond too and you acknowledge nothing.

Ignore the fact that judaic messianic prophecy has nothing to do with christianity? Yep

Ignore the fact that claims about any other religion can be made in the way you claim yours, yet you don't believe them? Yep.

Ignore the fact that you've been constantly asked time and time again to provide even the hint of an intellectual reason to believe.. that you never provide? Yep.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JudiBug on July 22, 2009, 09:01:13 AM
Thanks, but I've had enough fun for one day.  I can't do the impossible.  This is it.  Take it or leave, throw up or whatever you want to.  I've got other things to do for a few hours.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 22, 2009, 09:17:20 AM
Thanks, but I've had enough fun for one day.  I can't do the impossible.  This is it.  Take it or leave, throw up or whatever you want to.  I've got other things to do for a few hours.

The impossible?

Frankly, providing evidence for the bible should be as easy as someone providing evidence that they have or used to have a bird nest in the trees in their backyard.

All claims are essentially equal, the god claim is simply no different and we treat it no different.  You however want special permission for the god claim that you wouldn't grant to any other claim, you essentially want to argue for the god claim as if it were presumed to be true.. rather then having any actual reason to believe it to be true.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: screwtape on July 22, 2009, 09:44:13 AM
My opinion is that if Bible scholars are thrilled, it can't be because there's much to worry about.  There are four gospels so three of them don't have anything missing.  This just adds more proof that nobody changed anything.

http://www.elginism.com/20080724/1193/

Are you an expert in textual criticism?  If not, then your guesses are probably not of much value.  I suggest you read "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman.  He is and expert in the field.  When you have an outlier like that, that disagrees with everything else you know of, it is a strong indicator that it is older and closer to the original.  The fact that it is missing the last part is probably not proof that the end is valid.  It is more likely proof that it was changed.


I'll bet you wouldn't choose to ignore the evidence that a hurricane was headed your way.  Good grief, such a somber group of people, how fun you are to be around you whilst you make your suspicions of something being terrible wrong going on.  It's a conspiracy, right?

This is just dismissive and does not answer anything Judi.  I do not think that is particularly respectful or intellectually honest.  Your beliefs and those of billions of people are not based on facts or reality. That is of concern for us and it should be for you too.  Rather than say we are not "fun", it would be of benefit for you to maybe open you mind and take a hard, honest look at what you believe.

Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Agga on July 22, 2009, 10:35:13 AM
Hey JudiBug

I'm not an atheist but I stil can't see how the bible is proof of anything but the bible existing?

If there's proof that the bible itself is proof, then what is it?


Agga

Hey Agga, to me THAT IT DOES EXIST when apparently not much else has is in itself remarkable.


Thanks, JudiBug, um, that clears up that little question of mine, I guess.

I think I'm going to start dropping acid again as when I'm tripping I can make more sense of things like this.



Agga

I guess now I am responsible for Agga taking acid.  Gosh, thanks but not thanks.  Woman don't you know that stuff fries brain cells.  They can come back if not much damage has been done, but if so get used to saying 'duh'.  I worked in the field as a counselor and some of those people didn't have the sense to come in when it rained. 


Firstly, that'd be "man" not woman, the blue arrow pointing up near my avatar means that I'm male.

Secondly, nope, I'm responsible for everything I do.

Thirdly, you have been seriously misinformed about LSD if you believe what you're saying about it.

Fifthly, being an observant counsellor does not qualify you to comment on the psychological / physical effects of LSD 25.  What you've heard is an urban legend that's been upheld by the establishment through people such as yourself.

Sixthly, those days are long gone for me anyway, I have to be all sensible and 'government-stooge' like these days. 

Seventhly, you exhibit signs of victim mentality if you project that you're responsible for what I do, which is a common show for theists such as yourself.  May I recommend that you free your mind?

Eighthly, you smell... well, no, you don't smell... I'm just having a little childish moment in the middle of this fun post.

Ninethly, I've just realised that you're the member who wants to leave because you couldn't handle the fact that your reality was coming down around you.  Why am I even finishing this post?  It's weird, I know you're probably never going to read it, I'm typing this to myself as I go and yet here I am... still typing, still talking to myself.

Tenthly, hmm, nah I'm out.


I blame the 70mg codeine.  They rock.  Pharmaceutical grade (free too) drugs are the bollocks.  I only got these yesterday and I'm as high as a fucking kite.  It's brilliant.  I feel like I've smoked half oz of skunk but without all the shitty tiredness and lethargy.


That's probably why I'm talking so much incoherent gabbling shit in this post back to you.
Then again, meet like with like, that's what I was taught as a kid!

;)
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Operator_A25 on July 22, 2009, 10:50:27 AM
JudiBug will likely not be responding to these posts as she has requested that the staff delete her account and the request has been granted.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JesusHChrist on July 22, 2009, 10:56:36 AM

Let's all sing the defeated theist theme song!

Quote
Brave Sir Robin ran away.
("No!")
Bravely ran away away.
("I didn't!")
When danger reared it's ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
("no!")
Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about
("I didn't!")
And gallantly he chickened out.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: PeterRabbit on July 22, 2009, 11:01:45 AM

Let's all sing the defeated theist theme song!

Quote
Brave Sir Robin ran away.
("No!")
Bravely ran away away.
("I didn't!")
When danger reared it's ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
("no!")
Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about
("I didn't!")
And gallantly he chickened out.

:D
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Agga on July 22, 2009, 11:20:10 AM
JHC... 10/10  :D
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 22, 2009, 11:28:15 AM
My favorite part of this is James456 sitting in silence for days on end watching the entire thing.

I never quite understand theist who seem to be surprised and even offended that you ask them to provide not only evidence for what they claim but to actually be able to defend the claims being made.  Just as often as they seem offended that someone exists that doesn't believe automatically as they do.

Yet, I'm not surprised that often the actual argument presented or the style of presentation made is one where knowledge itself is discarded or becomes the target of attack more so then atheism.  The theist builds these ridiculous barriers to further remove their claims from a further denigrated presumed position they assign to us, to the point where they claim its just 'impossible'.  As a side note, this is largely the behavior and context of religious apologia.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Timtheskeptic on July 22, 2009, 12:29:23 PM

Let's all sing the defeated theist theme song!

Quote
Brave Sir Robin ran away.
("No!")
Bravely ran away away.
("I didn't!")
When danger reared it's ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
("no!")
Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about
("I didn't!")
And gallantly he chickened out.


Wonderful. Pity really. It seems to me that they are chickens!
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 22, 2009, 10:26:26 PM
Firstly, that'd be "man" not woman, the blue arrow pointing up near my avatar means that I'm male.

Secondly, nope, I'm responsible for everything I do.

Thirdly, you have been seriously misinformed about LSD if you believe what you're saying about it.

Fifthly, being an observant counsellor does not qualify you to comment on the psychological / physical effects of LSD 25.  What you've heard is an urban legend that's been upheld by the establishment through people such as yourself.

Agga, looks like all that LSD fried the four right out of your counting skills!

My favorite part of this is James456 sitting in silence for days on end watching the entire thing.

Omen, I noticed the same thing.  Once I asked for a direct answer to a direct question, he suddenly decided I wasn't worth saving.

Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: james456 on July 23, 2009, 01:02:47 PM
My favorite part of this is James456 sitting in silence for days on end watching the entire thing.

Omen, I noticed the same thing.  Once I asked for a direct answer to a direct question, he suddenly decided I wasn't worth saving.

Looks like you guys are guilty of the same thing you accuse Christians of: believing in whatever makes you feel good.

LonestarGrandad, I've reviewed my posts, and see that I answered your question at length.  You apparently did not get the answer you were looking for, and are assuming a non-answer as another strike against Christians.  I also made numerous other comments and asked many direct questions of you that you completely ignored in your search for the answer you wanted.  I wonder if that was the pattern of your life as a Christian.

Omen, I've said enough in regards to our debate, don't need to have the last word, and recognize an endless argument when I see one, though I still am interested in what others have to say.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 23, 2009, 01:10:16 PM
My favorite part of this is James456 sitting in silence for days on end watching the entire thing.

Omen, I noticed the same thing.  Once I asked for a direct answer to a direct question, he suddenly decided I wasn't worth saving.

Looks like you guys are guilty of the same thing you accuse Christians of: believing in whatever makes you feel good.

And what can you cite as an example of this, because so far everytime you've tried to describe,"Atheist believe this or atheist believe that.." its been a statement I have whole heartedly point out that I not only DO NOT believe it but it is not required to contradict the claims you are making.

So again, what exactly would be an example of believing what makes me feel good?

Quote
Omen, I've said enough in regards to our debate, don't need to have the last word, and recognize an endless argument when I see one, though I still am interested in what others have to say.

You certainly responded to me once, but you ignored the implications and problems that your answers create.  That was my whole point of responding to you at all, because your rationalizations are so poor that they contradict the things you claim to believe at face value.  I pointed this out and you could just as easily responded to me about it.. but you didn't.  You've simply disappeared.

At this point you're simply demonizing us for not believing your every baseless assertion.  Which I could care less.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 23, 2009, 01:21:46 PM
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=7021.msg176673#msg176673

James you abandoned the subject here at my lost post, where I pointed out in excruciating detail how your excuses to suffering are not valid logically speaking.  Which included not only not having to place a value of good/evil on suffering, but pointing out that suffering would be meaningless regardless of gods purpose. You have been entirely silent since then.

James, you are what's wrong with religion and you are the perfect example of why many atheist ( including myself ) do not believe.  You're here trying to defend a religious contradiction, but the excuses you use to do so are so unintelligent and convoluted messes that it only bogs the religious claim in a mire of pleading and dishonesty.  The reason that it ends there is because ultimately there is nothing that can be rationally argued for when you have not only a complete lack of evidence for the god claim but also a complete lack of any reason it need be believed.  In place of that the typical religious apologia attempts to dictate terms to an audience as if it is presumed to be true, it is entirely one sided and at all points ultimately avoids inquiry by pleading away problems rather then directly addressing them.  It literally is no different then watching/listening to two children arguing over the details of 2 separate superman movies that are contradictory to each other.  This is how stupid the defense of religion has become and ironically the same defense can be made of any nonsense, homeopathic medicine, pseudoscience, magic, psychics, ufos, ghosts, etc.  Religion is nothing more then a silly imaginary claim among many others.

There could even be a god that exists, yet the manner and method that all religions attest to knowing that a god exists would actually prevent them from ever actually knowing that they had the correct god much less that there is a god at all.  Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 24, 2009, 02:22:05 PM
My favorite part of this is James456 sitting in silence for days on end watching the entire thing.

Omen, I noticed the same thing.  Once I asked for a direct answer to a direct question, he suddenly decided I wasn't worth saving.

Looks like you guys are guilty of the same thing you accuse Christians of: believing in whatever makes you feel good.

LonestarGrandad, I've reviewed my posts, and see that I answered your question at length.  You apparently did not get the answer you were looking for, and are assuming a non-answer as another strike against Christians.  I also made numerous other comments and asked many direct questions of you that you completely ignored in your search for the answer you wanted.  I wonder if that was the pattern of your life as a Christian.

James,
You pontificated at length, but you did everything except answer my question.  In my original post, I  explained that good christian people like yourself told me that God would show me great things.  However, it seemed to me that God couldn't show me something uniquely personal to me:  the source of my allergy.

You come along and tell me that God wanted me to enjoy life in spite of my suffering.  I asked, how can I do that?  You answered, “God will show you.”  My question to you was this:  If God can show me how to live a good life today, why wouldn't he show me how to do the same thing years ago by alerting me to an allergy that would be simple to address, an affliction countless of his people were asking to be healed??

Your answer should have been, “I don't know.”  I would have had much more respect for you if that had been your answer.  However, you danced around the question and finally end up questioning whether I was a good christian.  Typical.  Nice reminder, James. 
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 25, 2009, 10:58:33 AM
Just an obversation outside of the ongoing discussion in this thread:

In the last two weeks, in the month that I turn 44 years old, my youngest daughter gave me my first grandson and my oldest daughter graduated college.  In the past, as a christian, I never valued this life as much as I should have because there was always the promise of a better one coming.

As a non-christian, I find I don't want to miss a thing because this life has become so much more valuable.  I think my new grandson and my daughter's graduation is that much sweeter because my focus is better.  Christianity is supposed to make this life better.  Since leaving the faith, my life has been better than I ever thought it could be.

I used to "press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God."  Now, I press toward the prize of living for today. 

I never knew it could be this good, just an observation. 
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Chesterton on July 26, 2009, 10:58:54 PM
Who knows why, LonestarGrandad, God chooses to put such a heavy burden on some and a lighter burden on others.  I don't envy your burden - adolescence is a tough enough time as it is.  But all you've really said here is that your predicament didn't make sense.  To a finite mind, it doesn't.  But understand what you are doing in saying this - you are holding yourself up as the judge.  In effect, you are saying that you, the afflicted, also get to be the judge.  The result is that you nominate yourself as the judge of objective truth based on a Job-like experience.

The kinds of write-offs you got at the hands of Christians is bad.  Many times we Christians write others off because we can't explain God's actions and sometimes, unfortunately, we just don't care enough.

Anyway, thanks for sharing what sounds like a pretty painful life episode.  I don't think it's the end of the story, however.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Azdgari on July 26, 2009, 11:49:25 PM
Who knows why, LonestarGrandad, God chooses to put such a heavy burden on some and a lighter burden on others.  I don't envy your burden - adolescence is a tough enough time as it is.  But all you've really said here is that your predicament didn't make sense.  To a finite mind, it doesn't.  But understand what you are doing in saying this - you are holding yourself up as the judge.  In effect, you are saying that you, the afflicted, also get to be the judge.  The result is that you nominate yourself as the judge of objective truth based on a Job-like experience.

Chesterton, the alternative is to give up entirely on judging reality in any way.  After all, it's all God's creation - who are we to judge whether the sky is blue or green?  Those are just our own flawed, biased Human senses leading us astray.  Trust nothing, not even the reality of the computer in front of your face!

Chesterton, why do you think it is that religious arguments end up in such solipsistic quagmires?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: kevyrat69 on July 27, 2009, 01:29:39 AM
Just an obversation outside of the ongoing discussion in this thread:

In the last two weeks, in the month that I turn 44 years old, my youngest daughter gave me my first grandson and my oldest daughter graduated college.  In the past, as a christian, I never valued this life as much as I should have because there was always the promise of a better one coming.

As a non-christian, I find I don't want to miss a thing because this life has become so much more valuable.  I think my new grandson and my daughter's graduation is that much sweeter because my focus is better.  Christianity is supposed to make this life better.  Since leaving the faith, my life has been better than I ever thought it could be.

I used to "press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God."  Now, I press toward the prize of living for today. 

I never knew it could be this good, just an observation. 

LoneStar, Awesome observation man.  I love it and I too see it this way.  This life is it and we need to see the people around us better.  No prize at the end of our lives.  This is it the here and now!!!

Thank you Lonestar. 

kevyrat
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 27, 2009, 01:41:06 AM
Who knows why, LonestarGrandad, God chooses to put such a heavy burden on some and a lighter burden on others.  I don't envy your burden - adolescence is a tough enough time as it is.  But all you've really said here is that your predicament didn't make sense.  

Chesterton,
I said much more than that.

Plain and simple, God does not answer prayer.  
You can "speak with tongues of men and angels"
and you can pray "the prayer of the righteous man (that) availeth much"
and you can "ask believing that you may recieve"
and you can "fast and pray"
and you can tithe ten percent
and you can give what you have to the poor
and you can obey the ten commandments
and you can preach, witness, and testify . . .
but none of this will change the fact that God cannot be bothered.  God will not do one thing His book says he will do.
Acts 2:17
In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on everyone. Your sons and your daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams.

According to His word, in the last days, THESE days, God does not have a problem speaking to us through various means.  However, He is strangely mute when it comes to anything of value.  Why is that?

James 5:14,15
Is any sick among you?  Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:  And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him

According to His word, God is just as willing to heal as He is to forgive sins.  Again, in my case, I didn't need a healing.  I just needed my personal savior to speak to me through any means He deemed fit.  I didn't need a miracle, just a moment.  I got neither.
 
Here are some other promises from God's Book that He didn't keep.
Isaiah 65:24
"It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear."
John 16:23,24
"In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you. Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full."
Psalms 50:15
"Call upon Me in the day of trouble; I shall rescue you, and you will honor Me."
Matthew 7:11
"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!"
Psalms 34:17
"The righteous cry, and the LORD hears and delivers them out of all their troubles."
Numbers 23:19
"God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.  Does he speak and then not act?  Does he promise and not fulfill?"
My answer to this question in Numbers is:  
Yes He speaks (if you believe the Bible is His word) and no he doesn't act.  
Yes He promises (again, through His word) and no he does not fulfill His promises.

This is not what I BELIEVE, this is what I have EXPERIENCED.

So either God is not a very nice dude, a liar and a promise breaker, or He isn't really there.

edit:  grammar

Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 27, 2009, 07:24:42 AM
LoneStar, Awesome observation man.  I love it and I too see it this way.  This life is it and we need to see the people around us better.  No prize at the end of our lives.  This is it the here and now!!!
Thank you Lonestar. 
kevyrat

Your welcome, kevyrat.  Life is good.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Onesimus on July 27, 2009, 08:32:53 AM
So either God is not a very nice dude, a liar and a promise breaker, or He isn't really there.

It's possible that it's even worse than that.

I'm reminded of the old Twilight Zone episode where Billy Mumy had godlike destructive powers and would banish people he didn't like to the cornfield.  The adults around him lived in a dismal state of being terrified of him, but tried their best to conceal their terror by constantly telling the kid that everything he did was good and wonderful.

If God exists, he's like Billy Mumy... except without a cool alt-rock career as an adult.   
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 27, 2009, 10:12:59 AM
So either God is not a very nice dude, a liar and a promise breaker, or He isn't really there.

It's possible that it's even worse than that.

I'm reminded of the old Twilight Zone episode where Billy Mumy had godlike destructive powers and would banish people he didn't like to the cornfield.  The adults around him lived in a dismal state of being terrified of him, but tried their best to conceal their terror by constantly telling the kid that everything he did was good and wonderful.

If God exists, he's like Billy Mumy... except without a cool alt-rock career as an adult.   

I think the reduced concept of god that apologist keep retreating into is as meaningless as if that god had never existed.  They are forever trying to assign meaning and purpose to existence by deference to a supernatural sky fairy that as individual actions go lacks an equal amount of purpose to its own actions in contradiction to its own abilities.  No goal unfulfilled, no want that isn't met, and nothing that can possibly be done where it does not know the results in an infinite number of possible outcomes.  As a 'thing' that takes 'actions', its actions are entirely inseparable from true 'randomness' being outside the chain of causality.  It might as well not exist.

The irony is that a lesser being, that isn't omnipotent/omniscient is more believable then the omni-god.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Chesterton on July 27, 2009, 12:00:42 PM
LonestarGrandad-

You sound let-down and you jump around scripture quite a bit to prove your point.  Have you ever read Romans 9?  Have you ever read James?  To concentrate on God's love and then protest when it is not afforded to you is to understand only the warm-fuzzy parts of scripture.  Still, God says that if you come to Him in humility, He will answer.  This answer will rarely be the answer that we would have requested had we been able to be our own god - we want comfort, not trouble.

To say God is a liar is very dangerous territory.  I can give you 3 miracles, 2 that happened to me and one to a close friend.  You (and others on this site) are right when you point out the ridiculous "miracles" that humbugs and money-grubbers counterfeit, but that doesn't mean they don't happen.  My daughter quit moving in the womb, failed all the Non-Stress tests, and was born not breathing (effectively still-born, but with some vitals still working).  I was told she would not live.  Then a few hours later I was told she would live but would be severely brain-damaged.  Then I was told that the doctor's couldn't explain it, but her blood-gasses were perfectly normal.  I prayed the entire time.  Today, other than not cleaning her room to my liking, she is a normal teen-aged girl.  Actually, about cleaning, I guess that's normal for teen-agers.  I'm at work so the other 2 miracles will have to wait.

I would submit to you that stories of real miracles are not told within atheist circles for 2 reasons.  1 - like bad news sells newspapers, counterfeit miracles tickle the ears of atheists looking for proof for their position.  2 - Most Christians I know that have had the experiences I've had feel the need to keep the experience to themselves.  Why?  I don't know.

God IS kind and loving, but that is 1/2 of the story.  To not know that is to know only a portion of scripture.  If we try to create Him in our likeness, we are always disappointed.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 27, 2009, 12:10:05 PM
To say God is a liar is very dangerous territory.

It's about as dangerous as calling Poseidon a liar.

Quote
I would submit to you that stories of real miracles are not told within atheist circles for 2 reasons.  1 - like bad news sells newspapers, counterfeit miracles tickle the ears of atheists looking for proof for their position.  2 - Most Christians I know that have had the experiences I've had feel the need to keep the experience to themselves.  Why?  I don't know.

3- Intellectual honesty - saying "I don't know how that improbable event happened" instead of instantly attributing it to my appeals to the version of deity I believe exists because of where and when I was born.

It's the hardest one, because it takes knowledge, wisdom and humility.





Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 27, 2009, 12:33:32 PM
LonestarGrandad-

You sound let-down and you jump around scripture quite a bit to prove your point.

He doesn't have to jump around at all.

Quote
  Have you ever read Romans 9?  Have you ever read James?

Why would anyone of sound intellectual mind place deference to a single line of text cherry picked seemingly because it just makes you feel good?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Onesimus on July 27, 2009, 01:12:28 PM
If we try to create Him in our likeness, we are always disappointed.

The irony here, of course, is that every god has been created in the likeness of man... in the case of Yahweh, a cranky, bitter, jealous, high-maintenance man. 

To avoid disappointment, it would seem the best thing would be to stop creating gods.  Okay!  I'm down with that. 
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 27, 2009, 02:02:16 PM
LonestarGrandad-
You sound let-down and you jump around scripture quite a bit to prove your point. 

I didn't jump around scripture.  I listed a few of the promises God makes to His people from the Old and New Testament, including the words of Jesus.

You seem to be very well read so here they are again.  Would you please take them promise by promise and explain to me why each one of them did not apply to me?  If you will do that, without obfuscation, then I will discuss your claimed miracles further.
 
Isaiah 65:24
"It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear."
John 16:23,24
"In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you. Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full."
Psalms 50:15
"Call upon Me in the day of trouble; I shall rescue you, and you will honor Me."
Matthew 7:11
"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!"
Psalms 34:17
"The righteous cry, and the LORD hears and delivers them out of all their troubles."
Numbers 23:19
"God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.  Does he speak and then not act?  Does he promise and not fulfill?"
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: none on July 27, 2009, 02:19:36 PM
God IS kind and loving, but that is 1/2 of the story.
the other 1/2 is dissapointing, trust me.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Chesterton on July 27, 2009, 02:30:43 PM
LonestarGrandad

I will gladly answer your scripture references one by one, if you will do 2 things.

1.  Tell me how to copy your text into my response like others are doing

2.  Be patient and allow me to respond to a few at a time - my freetime is lacking.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Azdgari on July 27, 2009, 02:35:16 PM
1.  Tell me how to copy your text into my response like others are doing

See the "Quote" button at the upper-right of peoples' posts?  Click that.  Their post will appear in the text-box between two tags, like so:

Code: [Select]
[quote author=Chesterton link=topic=7021.msg183055#msg183055 date=1248723043]
1.  Tell me how to copy your text into my response like others are doing[/quote]

To break someone's post up into multiple pieces, just copy-paste the tags where needed, like so:

Code: [Select]
[quote author=Chesterton link=topic=7021.msg183055#msg183055 date=1248723043]
1.  Tell me how to copy your text into my response[/quote]

[quote author=Chesterton link=topic=7021.msg183055#msg183055 date=1248723043]
like others are doing[/quote]

Which yields this:

1.  Tell me how to copy your text into my response

like others are doing
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 27, 2009, 02:58:03 PM
LonestarGrandad
I will gladly answer your scripture references one by one, if you will do 2 things.
1.  Tell me how to copy your text into my response like others are doing
2.  Be patient and allow me to respond to a few at a time - my freetime is lacking.

You have a deal.  Others have provided the answers so I will patiently await your responses.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Chesterton on July 27, 2009, 03:13:56 PM
LonestarGrandad-
You sound let-down and you jump around scripture quite a bit to prove your point. 

I didn't jump around scripture.  I listed a few of the promises God makes to His people from the Old and New Testament, including the words of Jesus.

You seem to be very well read so here they are again.  Would you please take them promise by promise and explain to me why each one of them did not apply to me?  If you will do that, without obfuscation, then I will discuss your claimed miracles further.
 
Isaiah 65:24
"It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear."

In Isaiah 65, God is prophesying that He will make salvation available to the Greek because of the obstinate nature of the Jews.  Isaiah 65 starts as follows:  "I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me. To a nation that did not call on my name, I said, 'Here am I, here am I.'   2 All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations- It goes on with similar language about the disobedience of the Jewish people, then turns to the promise of revelation for the Greek.  In fact, He says that for the sake of the Jewish remnant He will not destroy all of His people.  A kind promise from a God with the ability to do so - He is, after all, God. (Romans 9:14-16)

You have applied the promise of general revelation made in Isaiah 65 to your particular afflictions and that, I believe, is your error.  It is very out of context.  This promise was never that you would live a life without pain, it was that the gospel would be offered to the Gentiles, wholly different than the application you are trying to make.  The fact that we are here discussing this shows that God has, in fact, shown Himself to you (Gentile) in some degree.  (Romans 1:20).

More later - lunch is over.  I hope I did the cut/paste thing right.


John 16:23,24
"In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you. Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full."
Psalms 50:15
"Call upon Me in the day of trouble; I shall rescue you, and you will honor Me."
Matthew 7:11
"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!"
Psalms 34:17
"The righteous cry, and the LORD hears and delivers them out of all their troubles."
Numbers 23:19
"God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.  Does he speak and then not act?  Does he promise and not fulfill?"
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Chesterton on July 27, 2009, 03:16:06 PM
BTW - Thanks Azdgari.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Azdgari on July 27, 2009, 03:51:06 PM
You're welcome, but you might want to add your own text next time too!
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Gnu Ordure on July 27, 2009, 04:13:55 PM
He did - it's in the middle !

Chesterton - after you've typed your response, but before posting, use the Preview button to check you've got it right.

After you've posted the thing, you can use the Modify button (top right of your post), to change it/fix it if you need to.

Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 27, 2009, 04:45:05 PM
Isaiah 65:24
"It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear."
In Isaiah 65, God is prophesying that He will make salvation available to the Greek because of the obstinate nature of the Jews.

So this promise doesn't apply to me because, according to verse 17 of chapter 65, this is how God will act after He has created a new heaven and a new earth.  So even though it would be nice for God to answer and hear me before I call or while I am still speaking, I will have to wait until He creates a new heaven and a new earth to be able to rely on this promise.  Alright Chesterton, as a child of God I cannot lay claim to this promise until everything is finished with this life.  You are right.  This promise does not apply to me because I live in the here and now and not in the future.  I await your next response.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Gnu Ordure on July 27, 2009, 04:54:04 PM
Judibug:
Quote
JesusHChrist:
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Why is the bible "proof" and the Book of Mormon or the Qu'ran not? What made you choose the bible as the "correct" holy book?

Step back a step...

Because the Old Testament prophecies about Christ.  I didn't believe it for a long time, but it was that that finally convinced me.  You don't have to accept it, no one does, but I do.  It's as simple as that.

I know Judibug has left the building, but I missed this thread and it's too late now. But it's worth pointing this out in case anyone comes up with this reason for their belief, again.

Islam reveres Jesus as a prophet - they call him a messiah, and believe he will come again. They also regard the Torah (the first five books of the bible), and other Old Testament books, and the New Testament Gospels, as part of the Koran.

They revere the OT prophet Elijah, who prophesied the coming of Jesus.

Therefore...

... Judibug could have used her belief in OT prophecies concerning Jesus to justify herself being Moslem, just as much being Christian.  

Same books, same prophecies, same Jesus.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 27, 2009, 05:13:28 PM
Isaiah 65:24
"It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear."

In Isaiah 65, God is prophesying that He will make salvation available to the Greek

Really? The greek.   It says the greek?

Quote
because of the obstinate nature of the Jews.

.. Obstinate nature of the jews..

I'm not so certain:

65:3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;
65:4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;


That is certainly a strange way to describe a jew, especially if you're trying to imply a dichotomy of jew vs greek.  Well I be damned, its almost as if the dichotomy is really a practicing/faithful follower ( a faithful jew ) in comparison to a one who is not.

Quote
 Isaiah 65 starts as follows:  "I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me. To a nation that did not call on my name, I said, 'Here am I, here am I.'   2 All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations-

Thats interesting that you stopped there and I can't help but notice thats where the rest of my quote picks up off of.  It is almost as if you cute off mid sentence so that you could stick with the dichotomy of Greek Vs Jew rather then Jew vs unfaithful Jew.

Quote
It goes on with similar language about the disobedience of the Jewish people,

Hrm, there's that unexplained dichotomy again.  It is almost as if you want it to fit some kind of pre-conceived notion.

Quote
then turns to the promise of revelation for the Greek.

Oh, strange.. doesn't say that anywhere else.

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 In fact, He says that for the sake of the Jewish remnant He will not destroy all of His people.  A kind promise from a God with the ability to do so - He is, after all, God. (Romans 9:14-16)

Hrm..

65:11: But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
65:12: Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

Doesn't say anything referencing 'his people' or implying that its his people and some others.. it seems to be pretty black and white.  If you follow me, correctly, everything is top notch.  If you don't well.. here's the boot.

This is really a minor reference, it continues for several lines demonizing and telling us all about the horrible things done to people who don't believe in the right tribal fairy tale.  However, it says nothing about the greek and implies an entirely opposite outcome.

In fact, Isaiah 66 continues in the same vein.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Chesterton on July 27, 2009, 11:37:55 PM
Isaiah 65:24
"It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear."
In Isaiah 65, God is prophesying that He will make salvation available to the Greek because of the obstinate nature of the Jews.

So this promise doesn't apply to me because, according to verse 17 of chapter 65, this is how God will act after He has created a new heaven and a new earth.  So even though it would be nice for God to answer and hear me before I call or while I am still speaking, I will have to wait until He creates a new heaven and a new earth to be able to rely on this promise.  Alright Chesterton, as a child of God I cannot lay claim to this promise until everything is finished with this life.  You are right.  This promise does not apply to me because I live in the here and now and not in the future.  I await your next response.

Well, the others aren't so easy.  As I'm sure you know, the Psalms quotes can be explained because each is written at a specific time for a specific situation.  Some have to do with the Jews, some with war, etc.  I could probably make the case that these quotes do not prove your point, but I won't waste the keystrokes.  In fact, the NT scriptures you mentioned (and many others) do say exactly what you are saying they say - that God will answer prayers for the faithful.  I think these promises apply to believers today.  I've seen it.  In addition to the story of my daughter above, I was also healed overnight of a case of plantar fasciitis that had gone on for 2 years and that doctor's were unable to fix.  Lastly, my friend had an immediate healing from a multi-year case of Vertigo that had made her unable to work or to care for her daughter.  These are exactly the scriptures I understand you are taking issue with - you prayed and nothing happened.  So yes, you have a legitimate question.  There is, however, an answer and it is not that you need to pray harder or that you weren't a good enough Christian.

We have members of my church that have died of cancer recently, despite prayer.  However, to question God in such an instance is to misunderstand.  Certainly some of the ailments are there to show God's mercy in healing through prayer, but others are there for a different reason.  God causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.  When we believe that God could have had no hand in any ailment that afflicts believers, we show that our faith is immature.  If our doctrine says that God is only there to fulfill our wishes and make our lives exactly as we would have them, then we have to ignore huge parts of the scripture to hold that belief (Job, Romans, James).  When we begin to realize that our lives are not 80 or 90 years that we are given on this earth, but eternity, (remember the Isaiah quote), then an allergy and the embarassment of our youth, no matter how acute, pales in comparison.  Romans 8:18 says "For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.  For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God."  Why would this statement be here if there was not suffering to be experienced.

It seems to me from reading through your posts that, despite stating you are an atheist, you are really seeking a reason not to believe.  I can't give you that.  I was an atheist until the age of 24 and came to Christ as an adult.  It has been the most wonderful occurrence of my life, even when I felt God didn't answer my prayers to my liking.  I see truth in a way I never thought possible and have seen God's hand at work over and over. 

It's getting late and there's a whole pint of Pecan Praline in the freezer, so I will sign off now.  I hope not, but you might take issue with something in this post and, if so, I'll read it tomorrow and hopefully get a chance to respond.  Otherwise, I believe you had a question about the miracles I've experienced.  I'll gladly answer them.

If you would have a chance to listen to a sermon (about 30 minutes) I'd direct you to http://www.solideogloria.org/erc/sermons/080615.htm

Take care and God bless.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: William on July 28, 2009, 03:51:01 AM
In addition to the story of my daughter above, I was also healed overnight of a case of plantar fasciitis that had gone on for 2 years and that doctor's were unable to fix. Lastly, my friend had an immediate healing from a multi-year case of Vertigo

Chesterton, have you considered the possibility that you are kidding yourself.  What you are saying about the resolution of your plantar fasciitis fits rather well with medical evidence for the way the condition eventually goes away in 90% of cases - entirely without miracles involved.

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Although there is no consensus on the efficacy of any particular conservative treatment regimen, there is agreement that nonsurgical treatment is ultimately effective in approximately 90% of patients. Since the natural history of plantar fasciitis has not been established, it is unclear how much of symptom resolution is in fact due to the wide variety of commonly used treatments.
http://www.jaaos.org/cgi/content/abstract/5/2/109

From what you say you were treated by doctors - and the resolution occurred some time later.  That is not abnormal, and I think you ought to give credit to the real healers in this case.

And I'm sorry to disappoint you but your daughter's survival is no miracle either - many stillbirths do get resuscitated and go on to thrive:
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Unexpected stillbirth occurs in 0.5/1000 births over 24 weeks of gestation; most have identifiable obstetric or perinatal antecedents
Over 60% of these infants are successfully resuscitated; of these, over 60% have no long term disability, but one in five do.
http://fn.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/78/2/F112

Vertigo is one of those conditions that goes away on its own in about 25% of cases i.e NO TREATMENT.  And it resolves after some time in a high proportion of cases with non-invasive treatments.  So without specific medical records and information about treatments received this one also qualifies as a potential case of a miracle only in hindsight.

So go ahead and believe what you want to - but your testimony is full of medical holes and unconvincing.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 28, 2009, 08:28:19 AM
In fact, the NT scriptures you mentioned (and many others) do say exactly what you are saying they say - that God will answer prayers for the faithful.  I think these promises apply to believers today. 

So, essentially, you are saying that I am correct in assuming that if God is a man of his word, and not a man that he should lie, then I should be able to claim these promises of healing, or answered prayer, or that He will listen to my cries.

But God did not heal. 
He did not answer prayer. 
He did not listen to my cries.
You and God are tight, Chesterton.  He listens to you.  He heals you.  He protects your family.  But for some reason, He ignores me.


So I will refer you back to my original post.
This final revelation (among many others) brought me to a crossroads in my life.  I had two choices.  Either God hates me or He is imaginary.  Since I am too much fun for anyone to hate, the answer became crystal clear to me for the first time in my life:  God  must be imaginary. 

If He really existed and loved me, He could have shown me with the tiniest of gestures.  I didn't need a miracle, just a moment.  I never got either and now that I am viewing life through rational eyes I see why.  Not only am I free from all the questions, I am also free from the burden that there might be something wrong with me that would keep a loving God from throwing me a crumb.

  I am not a Christian, I am not a sinner, I am not a rebel, I am not an atheist.  I am a rational person.
 
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 28, 2009, 08:35:02 AM
Lonestar, his earlier interpretation of Isaiah 65 is grossly inadequate and he's simply puppeting the normal material he's been told.  He's trying to make Isaiah 65 fit through force into a pre-conceived notion of prophecy, making up terms and implications that are directly either not part of the text or contradicted themselves.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 28, 2009, 08:36:29 AM
  I hope not, but you might take issue with something in this post and, if so, I'll read it tomorrow and hopefully get a chance to respond.  Otherwise, I believe you had a question about the miracles I've experienced.  I'll gladly answer them.

Seeing as how God chooses to work miracles in YOUR life but denies them in MINE, I think I'll pass on discussing how great these miracles are.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 28, 2009, 08:40:20 AM
Lonestar, his earlier interpretation of Isaiah 65 is grossly inadequate and he's simply puppeting the normal material he's been told.  He's trying to make Isaiah 65 fit through force into a pre-conceived notion of prophecy, making up terms and implications that are directly either not part of the text or contradicted themselves.

I agree with you, omen.  but it really doesn't matter.  As a former Christian, I know that we all shape the scriptures to fit the particular ideology that we are currently pushing.  We even make the claim that scriptures can have dual meanings.  So arguing Bible interpretation is specious and arbitrary.  But I have yet to find a Christian that can answer why I should believe in God any more, other than to tell me that God wants me to suffer. 

Believe me, I am clumsy enough to be able to suffer without God pulling any strings.  In that regard, I don't need Him.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 28, 2009, 08:47:35 AM
Lonestar, his earlier interpretation of Isaiah 65 is grossly inadequate and he's simply puppeting the normal material he's been told.  He's trying to make Isaiah 65 fit through force into a pre-conceived notion of prophecy, making up terms and implications that are directly either not part of the text or contradicted themselves.

I agree with you, omen.  but it really doesn't matter.  As a former Christian, I know that we all shape the scriptures to fit the particular ideology that we are currently pushing.  We even make the claim that scriptures can have dual meanings.  So arguing Bible interpretation is specious and arbitrary.  But I have yet to find a Christian that can answer why I should believe in God any more, other than to tell me that God wants me to suffer. 

Believe me, I am clumsy enough to be able to suffer without God pulling any strings.  In that regard, I don't need Him.

I disagree, it matters entirely.

You have a situation where people simply repeat the same dogmatic nonsense, regardless if its intellectually meaningful.. yet they think it is.  They use repetitive assertions of emotional pleading along with the claims they make, as if that in itself made an actual argument for whatever they are assuming.  The entire process being used here is one where they presuppose not only that they are true, but that they are correct.

If we are going to have this discussion or debate, then we need to challenge them at their core premises and don't give them any allowance for bullshit.  Make them explain their presuppositional, make them explain why they would claim it means X over Y, and make them reveal religious apologia to be as convoluted as it really is.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 28, 2009, 09:41:31 AM
3- Intellectual honesty - saying "I don't know how that improbable event happened" instead of instantly attributing it to my appeals to the version of deity I believe exists because of where and when I was born.

It's the hardest one, because it takes knowledge, wisdom and humility.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 28, 2009, 10:27:13 AM
Omen,
Your point is well made and I will have to back up and agree with you that it does matter.  However, making them explain why it means x over y is a never ending circle because when God can whisper in your ear and tell you what the Bible means, then you have the power to change x and y.  The argument is never ending because the principles of the argument can change at your (God's) whim. 

Take Chesterton, for example.  He starts off challenging my list of promises and then agrees with most of my list but then changes the meaning of the overall discussion to some abstract idea of God's plan.  He ends by saying, "there is an answer" but doesn't give it.  So rather than argue logically, I am chosing to argue on their terms since I have years of experience thinking like them.

On Chestertons's terms, he still proves MY point and not his.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Chesterton on July 28, 2009, 03:07:45 PM
In fact, the NT scriptures you mentioned (and many others) do say exactly what you are saying they say - that God will answer prayers for the faithful.  I think these promises apply to believers today. 

So, essentially, you are saying that I am correct in assuming that if God is a man of his word, and not a man that he should lie, then I should be able to claim these promises of healing, or answered prayer, or that He will listen to my cries.

But God did not heal. 
He did not answer prayer. 
He did not listen to my cries.
You and God are tight, Chesterton.  He listens to you.  He heals you.  He protects your family.  But for some reason, He ignores me.

That is what I'm saying - these quotes say God answers prayer.  Now, let's be honest here, LonestarGrandad.  You know that He did not heal, but you do not Know that He did not hear your prayers.  I believe we get messed up when we believe that we know best how God should answer our prayers.

Did God the Father hear Jesus when He said "Take this cup from me."  Of course He did.  Yet He did not respond to the exact prayer that Jesus made.  Does that mean that He didn't love Jesus?  Ridiculous question.  Did God respond to Joseph when he was sold into slavery?  Not in the way Joseph wanted Him to, yet it was a response that we can all learn from for centuries afterwards.  Did He respond to Paul when he was in chains for the gospel?  Not in the way Paul would've liked, but from God's response we can all learn that God doesn't always give us the comfort we want.


So I will refer you back to my original post.
This final revelation (among many others) brought me to a crossroads in my life.  I had two choices.  Either God hates me or He is imaginary.  Since I am too much fun for anyone to hate, the answer became crystal clear to me for the first time in my life:  God  must be imaginary. 

If He really existed and loved me, He could have shown me with the tiniest of gestures.  I didn't need a miracle, just a moment.  I never got either and now that I am viewing life through rational eyes I see why.  Not only am I free from all the questions, I am also free from the burden that there might be something wrong with me that would keep a loving God from throwing me a crumb.

  I am not a Christian, I am not a sinner, I am not a rebel, I am not an atheist.  I am a rational person.
 

I read this statement when I decided to respond to your post and re-read it now.  Its a great statement, because it is honest.  I am responding to you honestly and saying that I can't see how you can turn your back on God after 30 years.  He did give you much more than the tiniest of gestures.  He has extended eternal life to you (Isaiah 65, your first scripture citation).  That is much more than a tiny gesture.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 28, 2009, 03:22:59 PM
I read this statement when I decided to respond to your post and re-read it now.  Its a great statement, because it is honest.  I am responding to you honestly and saying that I can't see how you can turn your back on God after 30 years.  He did give you much more than the tiniest of gestures.  He has extended eternal life to you (Isaiah 65, your first scripture citation).  That is much more than a tiny gesture.

And we're back to emotional blackmail and pleading.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 28, 2009, 03:45:54 PM
I read this statement when I decided to respond to your post and re-read it now.  Its a great statement, because it is honest.  I am responding to you honestly and saying that I can't see how you can turn your back on God after 30 years.  He did give you much more than the tiniest of gestures.  He has extended eternal life to you (Isaiah 65, your first scripture citation).  That is much more than a tiny gesture.

After all this, my story and my experience and everything, all you can say is I should believe in God because he has extended to me eternal life?  If he won't keep his promises on ALL the other things in the Bible, what makes you think I can believe Him on this?  This is a very weak response indeed.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: nogodsforme on July 28, 2009, 03:57:48 PM
Yesterday I passed two black women on the sidewalk. One was talking about something good that had just happened, I think she had gotten a check she had been waiting for or something. The other lady yelled, "God is good!" and her friend responded by yelling, "God is AWE-SOME!" Both of these women were lower income, and from the way they spoke, had little education. They looked like life had not been too great.

Overall, life probably truly sucks for both of them. They have to cope with money problems, health problems, housing problems, car problems, legal problems, family problems, societal problems. Bad sh!t happens to them each and every day. But let just one unlikely random good thing happen, and it reinforces supernatural god-belief. The check was not magic-- it was not signed by God, and I bet it was not for a million dollars.

I am sure some religious person will say, who am I to determine that their lives aren't great, just because they are poor, uneducated, have bad jobs, etc. They will have eternal life because of their faith in God. But why doesn't God help with anything that willl make a real, permanent difference in people's lives? Like end racism, or fix poverty?

Why does God only do little piddly stop-gap things like heal somebody's foot warts, send a woman a check, help one person's baby, while letting millions of other people around the world starve, suffer and die? Far from AWE-SOME! >:(
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JesusHChrist on July 28, 2009, 04:36:37 PM
Why does God only do little piddly stop-gap things like heal somebody's foot warts, send a woman a check, help one person's baby, while letting millions of other people around the world starve, suffer and die? Far from AWE-SOME! >:(

I prefer my gods to find me parking places, but that's just me. Thank you Jesus!
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Chesterton on July 28, 2009, 10:38:25 PM
I read this statement when I decided to respond to your post and re-read it now.  Its a great statement, because it is honest.  I am responding to you honestly and saying that I can't see how you can turn your back on God after 30 years.  He did give you much more than the tiniest of gestures.  He has extended eternal life to you (Isaiah 65, your first scripture citation).  That is much more than a tiny gesture.

After all this, my story and my experience and everything, all you can say is I should believe in God because he has extended to me eternal life?  If he won't keep his promises on ALL the other things in the Bible, what makes you think I can believe Him on this?  This is a very weak response indeed.

Yes, we've been over a lot of ground and I have answered your questions.  Now I have a few questions.

Another way to look at your story is as an answer to prayer, since the doctor was created by God and did diagnose your problem using the skills given him.  When should God have answered your prayer in order for you to retain your belief?  Does your timetable have to be His?

Is the God you used to worship capable of bringing an ailment to you?  Has He ever done that in the past to anyone? 

Do you believe scripture any less today, or are you just angry at the embarassment you suffered in your younger years?

Now that you are "enlightened," what do you do with the historical Jesus?

To me, you seem out of place here, but are enjoying it right now because the atheists are helping you lick your wounds.  Misery loves company.  In time, however, their rhetoric will grow tiresome.  They will spin their hypotheticals, since their worldview doesn't work in the real world and they have to use hypotheticals, and you will one day realize you've heard the same-old tired song many times before.  Meanwhile, we Christians will be enjoying the deeper conversations of life that atheists want but cannot have. 

I liken their situation to attending a great debate on life.  I and many others attend.  I hear, I am intellectually challenged, I learn, and I leave.  On my way out, I see the atheists at the front counter.  They have been arguing the entire time about the price of admission, but go away believing they attended the debate.

God bless
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Azdgari on July 28, 2009, 10:43:15 PM
Another way to look at your story is as an answer to prayer, since the doctor was created by God and did diagnose your problem using the skills given him.  When should God have answered your prayer in order for you to retain your belief?  Does your timetable have to be His?

If he wanted Lonestar to retain his belief, then he "should" have answered the prayer at a time when doing so would have accomplished this task.  An omniscient and omnipotent being would know when to do this, and have the power to do it, to boot.

That no god decided to do this indicate that there exists no god who wanted Lonestar to retain his belief.  Perhaps a god exists that wants Lonestar to be an atheist, but that's all.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Zankuu on July 28, 2009, 11:05:15 PM
To me, you seem out of place here, but are enjoying it right now because the atheists are helping you lick your wounds. 

I think he fits in perfectly.  ;)

Misery loves company.

Do you think because we don't find your god plausible that we are unhappy?

In time, however, their rhetoric will grow tiresome.  They will spin their hypotheticals, since their worldview doesn't work in the real world and they have to use hypotheticals, and you will one day realize you've heard the same-old tired song many times before.

Seeing as how you already consider our posts rhetoric, I don't think you came here with that open of a mind.

Meanwhile, we Christians will be enjoying the deeper conversations of life that atheists want but cannot have. 

My conversations have much more depth since I left the church.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Onesimus on July 28, 2009, 11:14:47 PM
Now that you are "enlightened," what do you do with the historical Jesus?

There's a historical Jesus?  Did someone finally find some contemporary accounts written by regular historians?  Man, it's about time!!!
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 29, 2009, 12:13:24 AM
Yes, we've been over a lot of ground and I have answered your questions.  Now I have a few questions.
Chesterton, you did not answer my questions. 
I asked you to explain to me how the promises I listed did not apply to me thus explaining why God did not answer my prayer.  You actually ended up saying that God does answer prayer to believers today. You claimed these promises of answered prayer for yourself but couldn't explain why they are denied to me. 

Another way to look at your story is as an answer to prayer, since the doctor was created by God and did diagnose your problem using the skills given him.
James 5:14,15
Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.  And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.

Where does it say, here or anywhere in the Bible, that God will answer the prayer of the afflicted by making them an appointment with the doctor? 


  When should God have answered your prayer in order for you to retain your belief?  Does your timetable have to be His?
What a ridiculous question.  When my daughter was little, she was playing like a dog and almost pulled one of her front teeth completely out.  It was a Saturday and no dentist was open.  Do you know what my timetable was for her?  I immediately rubbed anbesol on her gums, and pulled the tooth out the rest of the way.  I didn't wait until the game was over.  I didn't make her suffer so she would be stronger.  I didn't send her to school on Monday with a tooth sticking straight out because I knew what was best.  I was her father.  She had a medical need that was within my ability to solve.  So I solved it. 
Didn't Jesus say that God knows how to be a better father than us?  If that is true, then God should have answered my prayer like he did when Jesus supposedly walked the earth.  According to the gospels, Jesus healed the sick.  He didn't make appointments for healing a year, two years, or ten years down the road.  So to answer your question, God should have treated me like a child that He loved and his timetable should have been as reasonable as any father. 

Is the God you used to worship capable of bringing an ailment to you?  Has He ever done that in the past to anyone?
First question:  No.  He hasn't been able to heal me so He obviously doesn't have the power to make me sick. 
Second question:  There is no proof, outside of the Bible, that He has ever done that to anyone and the Bible cannot be used to prove the Bible. 

Do you believe scripture any less today, or are you just angry at the embarassment you suffered in your younger years?
I do not believe any of the scripture today.  My suffering as a child of God in my youth is just one of many examples of God's failure in my life to live up to the scriptures. 

Now that you are "enlightened," what do you do with the historical Jesus?
There may well have been a man named Jesus who lived 2000 years ago.  There is also a man named Jesus who is alive today.  He lives down the street and makes great tamales.  But there is no historical proof that either one of them is the Son of God. 

To me, you seem out of place here, but are enjoying it right now because the atheists are helping you lick your wounds.  Misery loves company.
I don't have wounds only life experience that God is either a liar or He doesn't exist.  Misery?  Since I stopped blaming myself for God's shortcomings, I have never been happier.
 

In time, however, their rhetoric will grow tiresome.  They will spin their hypotheticals, since their worldview doesn't work in the real world and they have to use hypotheticals, and you will one day realize you've heard the same-old tired song many times before.  Meanwhile, we Christians will be enjoying the deeper conversations of life that atheists want but cannot have. 
I liken their situation to attending a great debate on life.  I and many others attend.  I hear, I am intellectually challenged, I learn, and I leave.  On my way out, I see the atheists at the front counter.  They have been arguing the entire time about the price of admission, but go away believing they attended the debate.

I have spent hours “enjoying the deeper conversations” with good Christian people like yourself. 
But now that I have shed the delusion of Christianity, I find these deeper conversations remarkable shallow.  Also having shed the delusion of Christianity, I find that I am more at peace, I sleep better at night, I feel better about myself, and I am just plain happier.  I look forward to the next 60 years of my life with no hang-ups.   

I know that the scriptures say that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.  But until God starts acting like He is alive, you won't find me wringing my hands in fear for saying He doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: screwtape on July 29, 2009, 08:39:06 AM
Does your timetable have to be His?

If you don't do my favor when I need it, it is not a favor.

Do you believe scripture any less today, or are you just angry at the embarassment you suffered in your younger years?
To me, you seem out of place here, but are enjoying it right now because the atheists are helping you lick your wounds.  Misery loves company.  In time, however, their rhetoric will grow tiresome.  They will spin their hypotheticals, since their worldview doesn't work in the real world and they have to use hypotheticals, and you will one day realize you've heard the same-old tired song many times before.  Meanwhile, we Christians will be enjoying the deeper conversations of life that atheists want but cannot have. 

I liken their situation to attending a great debate on life.  I and many others attend.  I hear, I am intellectually challenged, I learn, and I leave.  On my way out, I see the atheists at the front counter.  They have been arguing the entire time about the price of admission, but go away believing they attended the debate.

If jesus met you, he'd kick you in the balls for being such a smug douche bag.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Chesterton on July 29, 2009, 11:06:25 AM
Yes, we've been over a lot of ground and I have answered your questions.  Now I have a few questions.
Chesterton, you did not answer my questions. 
I asked you to explain to me how the promises I listed did not apply to me thus explaining why God did not answer my prayer.  You actually ended up saying that God does answer prayer to believers today. You claimed these promises of answered prayer for yourself but couldn't explain why they are denied to me. 

Another way to look at your story is as an answer to prayer, since the doctor was created by God and did diagnose your problem using the skills given him.
James 5:14,15
Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.  And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.

Where does it say, here or anywhere in the Bible, that God will answer the prayer of the afflicted by making them an appointment with the doctor? 


  When should God have answered your prayer in order for you to retain your belief?  Does your timetable have to be His?
What a ridiculous question.  When my daughter was little, she was playing like a dog and almost pulled one of her front teeth completely out.  It was a Saturday and no dentist was open.  Do you know what my timetable was for her?  I immediately rubbed anbesol on her gums, and pulled the tooth out the rest of the way.  I didn't wait until the game was over.  I didn't make her suffer so she would be stronger.  I didn't send her to school on Monday with a tooth sticking straight out because I knew what was best.  I was her father.  She had a medical need that was within my ability to solve.  So I solved it. 
Didn't Jesus say that God knows how to be a better father than us?  If that is true, then God should have answered my prayer like he did when Jesus supposedly walked the earth.  According to the gospels, Jesus healed the sick.  He didn't make appointments for healing a year, two years, or ten years down the road.  So to answer your question, God should have treated me like a child that He loved and his timetable should have been as reasonable as any father. 

Is the God you used to worship capable of bringing an ailment to you?  Has He ever done that in the past to anyone?
First question:  No.  He hasn't been able to heal me so He obviously doesn't have the power to make me sick. 
Second question:  There is no proof, outside of the Bible, that He has ever done that to anyone and the Bible cannot be used to prove the Bible. 

Do you believe scripture any less today, or are you just angry at the embarassment you suffered in your younger years?
I do not believe any of the scripture today.  My suffering as a child of God in my youth is just one of many examples of God's failure in my life to live up to the scriptures. 

Now that you are "enlightened," what do you do with the historical Jesus?
There may well have been a man named Jesus who lived 2000 years ago.  There is also a man named Jesus who is alive today.  He lives down the street and makes great tamales.  But there is no historical proof that either one of them is the Son of God. 

To me, you seem out of place here, but are enjoying it right now because the atheists are helping you lick your wounds.  Misery loves company.
I don't have wounds only life experience that God is either a liar or He doesn't exist.  Misery?  Since I stopped blaming myself for God's shortcomings, I have never been happier.
 

In time, however, their rhetoric will grow tiresome.  They will spin their hypotheticals, since their worldview doesn't work in the real world and they have to use hypotheticals, and you will one day realize you've heard the same-old tired song many times before.  Meanwhile, we Christians will be enjoying the deeper conversations of life that atheists want but cannot have. 
I liken their situation to attending a great debate on life.  I and many others attend.  I hear, I am intellectually challenged, I learn, and I leave.  On my way out, I see the atheists at the front counter.  They have been arguing the entire time about the price of admission, but go away believing they attended the debate.

I have spent hours “enjoying the deeper conversations” with good Christian people like yourself. 
But now that I have shed the delusion of Christianity, I find these deeper conversations remarkable shallow.  Also having shed the delusion of Christianity, I find that I am more at peace, I sleep better at night, I feel better about myself, and I am just plain happier.  I look forward to the next 60 years of my life with no hang-ups.   

I know that the scriptures say that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.  But until God starts acting like He is alive, you won't find me wringing my hands in fear for saying He doesn't exist.

So be it.  It makes me sad, but it sounds like your transformation is complete - prepare to become more machine than man as you lose your heart slowly over time.

It was good talking with you.

Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 29, 2009, 11:10:33 AM
So be it.  It makes me sad, but it sounds like your transformation is complete - prepare to become more machine than man as you lose your heart slowly over time.

At what rate does the transformation occur? What variables are involved? What proportion of the main effect is accounted for by each variable?

Also, what scale is used to measure "machiness"?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Omen on July 29, 2009, 11:32:56 AM

So be it.  It makes me sad, but it sounds like your transformation is complete - prepare to become more machine than man as you lose your heart slowly over time.

It was good talking with you.

Chesterton, you are everything that is wrong with what religion is, how religion propagates, and the depth of the extent of the god claim itself.  You prey on someone based on their emotional vunerability, you rely upon poorly worded and misinterpreted religious text to fit your pet religion, you attempt to hinge that belief further on emotional blackmail, and then you condemn them for not only not believing as you do.. but daring to ask you questions.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JesusHChrist on July 29, 2009, 11:42:25 AM
Now that you are "enlightened," what do you do with the historical Jesus?

What historical Jesus? Someone finally find those crucifixion records? Some other historian note the zombie-fest, earthquake and eclipse in Jerusalem post Christ-killing?

Oh I know...What about Josephus? Tacitus? Pliny?

Weak. Weak. Weak. That's what.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Azdgari on July 29, 2009, 11:51:34 AM
Another way to look at your story is as an answer to prayer, since the doctor was created by God and did diagnose your problem using the skills given him.  When should God have answered your prayer in order for you to retain your belief?  Does your timetable have to be His?

If he wanted Lonestar to retain his belief, then he "should" have answered the prayer at a time when doing so would have accomplished this task.  An omniscient and omnipotent being would know when to do this, and have the power to do it, to boot.

That no god decided to do this indicate that there exists no god who wanted Lonestar to retain his belief.  Perhaps a god exists that wants Lonestar to be an atheist, but that's all.


It was a simple post, that easily showed why you were wrong, Chesterton.  No doubt that's why you ignored it.  Addressing it would require honesty, after all.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Deelvrd on July 29, 2009, 11:55:50 AM
Lonestar,
Have you ever considered that the fact that God did not heal your allergy (nor reveal to you its source) all those years was that He knew it was the one thing He had to keep you in the faith, because He knew that once you found how simple the solution was, He knew you'd turn away from Him?  He used this ailment to draw you into faith.  He hoped that it would bring you into a full reliance on Him for all things.  Somewhere along the way, you desired something other than His full will for your life.  The enemy seeped into your thinking a selfish desire for something that God wasn't offering.  You've been led astray by the deceptive practices and the human philosophies of this world.  All the while, thinking God has betrayed you or ignored and neglected you...not realizing He was using that ailment as a thorn in your flesh to keep you from stumbling.

But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ...."
     2 Corinthians 11:3


Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Azdgari on July 29, 2009, 12:04:58 PM
...and according to Deelvrd, God is pitifully stupid.  That's another option, I suppose, but not one that I thought you'd accept, Chesterton.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Deelvrd on July 29, 2009, 12:10:29 PM
...and according to Deelvrd, God is pitifully stupid.  That's another option, I suppose, but not one that I thought you'd accept, Chesterton.

God is not stupid.  He is long-suffering.  Patient with us, awaiting our full surrender.  But we, as selfish beings, choose to go our own way.  We think we can do things better on our own.  We have free will...He won't force our hand.  He desires that we yield utterly to His will, but too many of us choose to be our own God.  Then we have people, who are fully captured by the schemes of the enemy, speaking lies into us, and feeding into that selfish nature that is destructive to all around us...but we're too bound up in our own selfish view to have any awareness of what our attitude does to others...depleting them of all hope for goodness...and a world without greed, pride, and self-righteous arrogance.

Ultimately:  if you don't believe in God, you are your own God.  What a wonderful world we will live in when atheists rule...and they all think they are God...scary!
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Emily on July 29, 2009, 12:14:43 PM
Lonestar,
Have you ever considered that the fact that God did not heal your allergy (nor reveal to you its source) all those years was that He knew it was the one thing He had to keep you in the faith, because He knew that once you found how simple the solution was, He knew you'd turn away from Him?  He used this ailment to draw you into faith.  He hoped that it would bring you into a full reliance on Him for all things.  Somewhere along the way, you desired something other than His full will for your life.  The enemy seeped into your thinking a selfish desire for something that God wasn't offering.  You've been led astray by the deceptive practices and the human philosophies of this world.  All the while, thinking God has betrayed you or ignored and neglected you...not realizing He was using that ailment as a thorn in your flesh to keep you from stumbling.

But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ...."
     2 Corinthians 11:3

OK, let me ask you a question. At what point does god finally heal someone from whatever condition they may have? Is it whenever he feels like the time is right? Well why does he continue to let this ailment get the better of people to the point that they draw away from him. If god really wanted people to worship him you'd think he'd give some leeway the moment that person begins to walk away. Ahh, but then it's too late.

Funny.


Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Azdgari on July 29, 2009, 12:16:15 PM
That's not what you said before, Deelvrd.  Your last post doesn't address the problem in your second-last one.

Quote
Have you ever considered that the fact that God did not heal your allergy (nor reveal to you its source) all those years was that He knew it was the one thing He had to keep you in the faith, because He knew that once you found how simple the solution was, He knew you'd turn away from Him?

Being all-knowing, God would have to know that not telling Lonestar about his allergy would lead to loss of faith.  No gods chose to act in such a way as to let Lonestar keep his faith.  Therefore, no capable gods (all-knowing and all-powerful) could possibly have wanted Lonestar to keep his faith.

If there was a god who wanted Lonestar to keep his faith, then it would have done something to achieve this goal.

Your response makes God out to be incompetent, because he wanted Lonestar to keep his faith, but - even though he is all-knowing and all-powerful - he managed not to.  That's stupidity and ineptitude on a scale beyond human capability.  But hey, it's your account, not mine.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Aaron123 on July 29, 2009, 12:18:43 PM
Ultimately:  if you don't believe in God, you are your own God.  What a wonderful world we will live in when atheists rule...and they all think they are God...scary!

Demostrate where atheists states they think they are gods.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Azdgari on July 29, 2009, 12:20:16 PM
Damn, I missed that one.  Deelvrd, is lying and bigotry a necessary part of being a Christian, or is it just something you enjoy personally?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: JesusHChrist on July 29, 2009, 12:22:19 PM
Ultimately:  if you don't believe in God, you are your own God.  What a wonderful world we will live in when atheists rule...and they all think they are God...scary!

Strawman! Scary!
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 29, 2009, 01:17:41 PM
Lonestar,
Have you ever considered that the fact that God did not heal your allergy (nor reveal to you its source) all those years was that He knew it was the one thing He had to keep you in the faith, because He knew that once you found how simple the solution was, He knew you'd turn away from Him?  He used this ailment to draw you into faith.  He hoped that it would bring you into a full reliance on Him for all things.  Somewhere along the way, you desired something other than His full will for your life.  The enemy seeped into your thinking a selfish desire for something that God wasn't offering.  You've been led astray by the deceptive practices and the human philosophies of this world.  All the while, thinking God has betrayed you or ignored and neglected you...not realizing He was using that ailment as a thorn in your flesh to keep you from stumbling.

But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ...."
     2 Corinthians 11:3

Deelvrd,
It is obvious by your initial post that you have not read this thread, and are attempting to simply jump into the debate on the back of others.  When it is clear to me that you have invested some time into this thread and can contribute with some depth I will respond.  Until then, your post is too shallow for my time.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 29, 2009, 01:24:09 PM
So be it.  It makes me sad, but it sounds like your transformation is complete - prepare to become more machine than man as you lose your heart slowly over time.

It was good talking with you.

Just another Christian who has decided to take his toys and go home.   Thanks chesty for the time, I would have liked to talk more but you decided not to respond except to lower the gavel on me.  Typical and yet another reminder of what I have left behind when I saw the steeple in my rear view mirror.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Chesterton on July 29, 2009, 01:38:12 PM
Also, LSGD, explain to me why the doctor could not have been the answer.  Was he not created by God?  Was he not given the expertise to heal by those before him, and they by teachers before them?  Were you hoping to have God's hand come down from heaven and cover your mouth when you tried to take aspirin? 

I see a miracle in the creation around us.  If you are constantly looking for bigger and better miracles than the one you are living in, you are putting God to the test.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: screwtape on July 29, 2009, 01:46:29 PM
So be it.  It makes me sad, but it sounds like your transformation is complete - prepare to become more machine than man as you lose your heart slowly over time.

Thank you, Obi-wan Kenobi.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 29, 2009, 02:00:54 PM
Also, LSGD, explain to me why the doctor could not have been the answer. 

Once again, that is not what the Bible says.  Jesus didn't tell the blind man to go to the doctor.  He said, "would you be healed?" and the man said yes, and Jesus healed him.  You are proposing something that is not biblical in your attempt to cover for God's inaction.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: screwtape on July 29, 2009, 02:03:43 PM
Also, LSGD, explain to me why the doctor could not have been the answer.  Was he not created by God? 

The doctor, like the rest of us, was created by sexual reproduction.  His parents banged and 9 months later the larval form of the doctor emerged from his mother's stretched-to-capacity vagina, which was never the same after.  It was not a miracle.  It was very mundane, vulgar, even.  You see, every person you see today was produced in the exact same manner, though probably from many different positions.  All mammals do it like that too.

Was he not given the expertise to heal by those before him, and they by teachers before them? 

Sort of.  You see, it is not the case that god handed anyone a degree in internal medicine or immunology and they just passed it along.  Each person along the way figured out a little bit and contributed it to the collection of "Things We Know".  In this way our cumulative knowledge has increased.  At no point was divine revelation a part of that.  If it were, we'd still be drilling holes in people's skulls to let the evil spirits out.  We do not allow prophets to make vaccines or design microprocessors through revelation for a very good reason - they seldom work.

I see a miracle in the creation around us. 

And some people see Elvis at a 7-11 in Tampa.  Go figure.

If you are constantly looking for bigger and better miracles than the one you are living in, you are putting God to the test.

Which is fine with yhwh.  yhwh was Elijah's bitch in 1Kings 18.  Elijah said "jump, bitch!" and yhwh said, "how high?"

Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Aaron123 on July 29, 2009, 02:20:39 PM
Quote
Which is fine with yhwh.  yhwh was Elijah's bitch in 1Kings 18.  Elijah said "jump, bitch!" and yhwh said, "how high?"

Yhwh was also Gideon's bitch in Judges 6.  Gideon took up yhwh's time over a piece of wool.  :D
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: velkyn on July 29, 2009, 03:11:02 PM
Also, LSGD, explain to me why the doctor could not have been the answer.  Was he not created by God?  Was he not given the expertise to heal by those before him, and they by teachers before them?  Were you hoping to have God's hand come down from heaven and cover your mouth when you tried to take aspirin? 

I see a miracle in the creation around us.  If you are constantly looking for bigger and better miracles than the one you are living in, you are putting God to the test.


lovely excuse.  Each theist makes the same claim, "Isn't my god something for creating the universe?!"  Can you please show how you know it was your particular one? 

God says to put him to the test. Right in the Bible.  You don't seem to be aware of that.  It isn't in one of the flashy books, the only ones that preachers pick sermons from.   God/Jesus said "Ask and you shall be given, knock and the door shall be opened".  Add that to Thomas' "Hey Jesus, I'm not sure can you help me out here?"  and we see that God can indeed be questioned and even bargained with if you think about Abraham and his dickering with God over Sodom and Gomorrah. 
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Chesterton on July 29, 2009, 07:42:02 PM
Also, LSGD, explain to me why the doctor could not have been the answer. 

Once again, that is not what the Bible says.  Jesus didn't tell the blind man to go to the doctor.  He said, "would you be healed?" and the man said yes, and Jesus healed him.  You are proposing something that is not biblical in your attempt to cover for God's inaction.

Regarding your previous post - I didn't go anywhere.  Your fellow atheists postings are sophomoric and insulting, but for your sake I will stay here.  It must be the zest for life that they received when they got "enlightened" that makes them so kind.

Regarding your statement above, LSGD, the bible never limits God to one mode or another.  Find me one instance where God says "I will always heal using this method."  One he told to wash in the pool, the other he healed then and there.  Would you have doubted the miracle of the man washing in the pool because Jesus wasn't looking at the man face-to-face? 

Jesus, when He walked the earth, healed face to face.  We, however, do not have Him here to heal us.  Yes, He does still heal, but not face-to-face.  I have proof of His healing.  In addition to that, though, I, and others, have had their share of trouble to fulfill His purpose.  The bible does not say that you will live a fairy tale existence.  In fact, Jesus said "In this world you will have trouble."

I posted another thread on this website regarding the Straw-Man fallacy(and found many critics in so doing).  This fallacy says that it is easy to disprove something if you create an incorrect image of it and defeat the incorrect image.  You are listening to a straw-man version of Christianity which the atheists on this website can easily defeat.  If they tell you that God exists to make everything perfect, then they can easily show you that if everything is not perfect, Christianity must be at fault.  The atheists redefine Christianity into what they want it to be, and then get angry when Christianity is not what they tried to make it.  I talk to atheists now through this website, but I know a few personally.  They are not happy people and many have a tough time fitting in because their worldview does not fit reality.

When you tell yourself that those few verses about answering prayers apply from the bible and forget the other things that have been said, you are believing a Straw-man version of Christianity.  I tell my kids they can have ice cream, but I also tell them they must eat their vegetables.  If they take my approval about the ice cream but conveniently forget about the vegetables, they are doing wrong.  Does their wrongdoing mean that they get ice cream each and every time they want it?  Of course not - they are in the wrong, not me.  They misconstrued what I said.  Did I still say it?  Of course I did and I meant it, but it was not the only thing I said.  If they then question my ability as a parent because of their hope that I meant they get ice cream always, then they are in the wrong.

You, LSGD, want ice cream each and every time.  Why won't God give you that?  Why must people in general suffer?  I don't know, but I do know that good has come of suffering (Joseph, Jesus, Paul).  I also know that the suffering was eased when Jesus walked the earth, mine has been eased by praying to Him, and ultimately there will be no suffering.

You said that you and your wife now are content, and that you sleep well at night.  That is always the case immediately after you put down a difficult burden.  I understand that living out biblical Christianity can be a burden.  Jesus said His yoke is light and it is in some aspects, but He also said in this world you will have trouble, and I also agree with that because my temptation has never been so strong as when I walk closely with God.  You have been given immediate, but temporary, relief from your burden.  Now, you must face the fact that you are seeking meaning in a context of over-arching meaninglessness (to quote Zacharias).  If you persist in this path you will begin to live a contradiction - perhaps it is that contradiction that makes atheists such sour-pusses.

Lastly, I never saw that you answered my question about the Lord, lunatic, liar question.  You understand that Jesus is a historical fact.  What do you do with Him?

I will not argue with you ad nauseum.  If you have a sincere interest in discussing our differences, let me know.  However, if this is just fodder for the disenchanted goofballs on this website, let me know and I will look elsewhere.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: RaptorJesus on July 29, 2009, 07:44:34 PM
Also, LSGD, explain to me why the doctor could not have been the answer. 

Once again, that is not what the Bible says.  Jesus didn't tell the blind man to go to the doctor.  He said, "would you be healed?" and the man said yes, and Jesus healed him.  You are proposing something that is not biblical in your attempt to cover for God's inaction.

Regarding your previous post - I didn't go anywhere.  Your fellow atheists postings are sophomoric and insulting, but for your sake I will stay here.  It must be the zest for life that they received when they got "enlightened" that makes them so kind.

Regarding your statement above, LSGD, the bible never limits God to one mode or another.  Find me one instance where God says "I will always heal using this method."  One he told to wash in the pool, the other he healed then and there.  Would you have doubted the miracle of the man washing in the pool because Jesus wasn't looking at the man face-to-face? 

Jesus, when He walked the earth, healed face to face.  We, however, do not have Him here to heal us.  Yes, He does still heal, but not face-to-face.  I have proof of His healing.  In addition to that, though, I, and others, have had their share of trouble to fulfill His purpose.  The bible does not say that you will live a fairy tale existence.  In fact, Jesus said "In this world you will have trouble."

I posted another thread on this website regarding the Straw-Man fallacy(and found many critics in so doing).  This fallacy says that it is easy to disprove something if you create an incorrect image of it and defeat the incorrect image.  You are listening to a straw-man version of Christianity which the atheists on this website can easily defeat.  If they tell you that God exists to make everything perfect, then they can easily show you that if everything is not perfect, Christianity must be at fault.  The atheists redefine Christianity into what they want it to be, and then get angry when Christianity is not what they tried to make it.  I talk to atheists now through this website, but I know a few personally.  They are not happy people and many have a tough time fitting in because their worldview does not fit reality.

When you tell yourself that those few verses about answering prayers apply from the bible and forget the other things that have been said, you are believing a Straw-man version of Christianity.  I tell my kids they can have ice cream, but I also tell them they must eat their vegetables.  If they take my approval about the ice cream but conveniently forget about the vegetables, they are doing wrong.  Does their wrongdoing mean that they get ice cream each and every time they want it?  Of course not - they are in the wrong, not me.  They misconstrued what I said.  Did I still say it?  Of course I did and I meant it, but it was not the only thing I said.  If they then question my ability as a parent because of their hope that I meant they get ice cream always, then they are in the wrong.

You, LSGD, want ice cream each and every time.  Why won't God give you that?  Why must people in general suffer?  I don't know, but I do know that good has come of suffering (Joseph, Jesus, Paul).  I also know that the suffering was eased when Jesus walked the earth, mine has been eased by praying to Him, and ultimately there will be no suffering.

You said that you and your wife now are content, and that you sleep well at night.  That is always the case immediately after you put down a difficult burden.  I understand that living out biblical Christianity can be a burden.  Jesus said His yoke is light and it is in some aspects, but He also said in this world you will have trouble, and I also agree with that because my temptation has never been so strong as when I walk closely with God.  You have been given immediate, but temporary, relief from your burden.  Now, you must face the fact that you are seeking meaning in a context of over-arching meaninglessness (to quote Zacharias).  If you persist in this path you will begin to live a contradiction - perhaps it is that contradiction that makes atheists such sour-pusses.

Lastly, I never saw that you answered my question about the Lord, lunatic, liar question.  You understand that Jesus is a historical fact.  What do you do with Him?

I will not argue with you ad nauseum.  If you have a sincere interest in discussing our differences, let me know.  However, if this is just fodder for the disenchanted goofballs on this website, let me know and I will look elsewhere.

Evidence ? and don't say bible
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Operator_A25 on July 29, 2009, 08:03:06 PM
Chesterton, first you say this:

Regarding your previous post - I didn't go anywhere.  Your fellow atheists postings are sophomoric and insulting, but for your sake I will stay here.

(Emphasis added.)  And then you say this:

I will not argue with you ad nauseum.  If you have a sincere interest in discussing our differences, let me know.  However, if this is just fodder for the disenchanted goofballs on this website, let me know and I will look elsewhere.

(Emphasis added, again.)

If you plan to criticize people who post on this site for being "sophomoric and insulting" as in your first quote above, then I suggest you refrain from being sophomoric and insulting yourself, as in your second quote above.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on July 29, 2009, 10:07:33 PM
Chesterton,
I think we are done with our discussion.  I have no interest in taking it any further.  Good luck to you and yours.  I am sure you will continue to have that deep meaningful life that Christianity gives you.  I, on the other hand, will continue to have a deep meaningful life without it.  Thanks for your time.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Onesimus on July 30, 2009, 12:30:58 AM
Lastly, I never saw that you answered my question about the Lord, lunatic, liar question. 

This has been answered many times.  The correct answer is #4... "Legend"... which you so conveniently leave out of your list of choices.  You're simply forcing us to write it on the ballot. 
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandmom on July 30, 2009, 08:22:09 AM
Hello all. I've been married to Lonestar Grandad for 25 years.
     I've been following this post almost every day for the past month. One thing that stands out like a bright, flashing neon sign is that Christians (such as Chesterston and others) are extremely judgmental. Of course, I already know this, as I spent the first 30+ years of my life surrounded by them. (My great granddad, granddad, dad, mom, brother, father-in-law, etc., were/are preachers, too.) At 17 years old, I married a preacher, Lonestar Grandad. He was (and is) the genuine article to me. Preaching and believing in God was not a game to him. He never spouted scriptures just to get his own way, and he never used scriptures to judge others, unlike other preachers/Christians. I watched him fast and pray and study the bible continuously. Trust me, he knows that book.
     There are many things that took place (or not took place) over the years to cause us to begin to question this bible god. This post is only one of many examples.
Chesterston, your last very rude posting says that LSGD and his wife are content and sleep well at night. You bet we do! We sleep better than we ever have, and while we are awake, we live each day to the fullest. We don't take life for granted any more, that's for sure. It feels fantastic to be free from the bondage of believing in that book.
     Chesterston spoke very badly of the atheists, which is yet another example of that good ole' Christian attitude. It's funny that Christians NEVER get it: They can read all the scriptures in their bible until they're blue in the face. They can get into heated discussions and debates to stand up for their holy god. They truly believe in their hearts that this is the right thing to do. (Remember, I've been there, too, I understand.) They can point their fingers at the non believers. They judge all of them, and speak bad about them, even calling them names. However, they NEVER get it.
     Supposedly, their Jesus' message was to love one another. It was not to only love other Christians. It was to love. Period. How sad for them that they just don't get it. These replies on here prove it.
     So go ahead, Chesterston and others, and start telling me the same b.s. such as I only want ice cream all the time, or some utterly ridiculous analogy like that. Go ahead and continue on in your righteous ways with your meaningful deep discussions. Run on to your churches and get all your coincidence miracles, judging others at the same time. We non-Christians will still be very content and will still sleep very well at night. We will live life to the fullest and love each and every day.
     Personally, I'll be out on the golf course not giving any of you a second thought. Thanks for your reminders of the life we don't live any more. What a great day it is indeed!
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: William on July 30, 2009, 08:34:08 AM
Great post and welcome LonestarGrandmom.  LonestarGrandad and you have turned out a great thread here and I'm proud to be in your company.  You give me hope that more Christians will begin to think for themselves and show some genuine leadership like the two of you.  :)
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Ambassador Pony on July 30, 2009, 08:35:14 AM
Thanks LSGM, a great contrast to the self-centered, selfish judgements of our christian contingent.

Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: screwtape on July 30, 2009, 08:54:09 AM
Regarding your previous post - I didn't go anywhere.  Your fellow atheists postings are sophomoric and insulting, but for your sake I will stay here.  It must be the zest for life that they received when they got "enlightened" that makes them so kind.

Maybe it is your smug and condescending attitude?  Maybe it is your unwillingness to be intellectually honest?  Either way, you get what you give.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Agamemnon on July 30, 2009, 10:14:22 AM
However, if this is just fodder for the disenchanted goofballs on this website, let me know and I will look elsewhere.

You got the "disenchanted" part right.

from wiktionary.org: (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/disenchant)
Quote
1. to free someone from illusion, false belief or enchantment; to undeceive or disillusion
2. to nullify a spell or magic enchantment

Not so much on the goofballs, part though.

I think you owe it to us to show your "proof" of Jesus' healing as you mentioned here:

Jesus, when He walked the earth, healed face to face.  We, however, do not have Him here to heal us.  Yes, He does still heal, but not face-to-face.  I have proof of His healing.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandmom on July 30, 2009, 11:12:40 AM
Thank you for the kind welcomes, everyone, plus for the personal replies. I appreciate it. It's nice to be here alongside my hubby.  :)
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Chesterton on July 30, 2009, 02:12:18 PM
And thank you, LSGD, for a good discussion.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Onesimus on July 30, 2009, 02:25:39 PM
Yay for our new grandparents!!   ;D
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Emily on July 30, 2009, 02:38:27 PM
Yes, yes. Welcome to the forum Mrs. LSGM.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Deelvrd on July 31, 2009, 01:42:56 AM


OK, let me ask you a question. At what point does god finally heal someone from whatever condition they may have? Is it whenever he feels like the time is right? Well why does he continue to let this ailment get the better of people to the point that they draw away from him. If god really wanted people to worship him you'd think he'd give some leeway the moment that person begins to walk away. Ahh, but then it's too late.

Funny.


Emily,
God may not heal someone physically...what He cares more about is our spiritual well-being. 

I prayed hard when I learned my mother had colon cancer.  I went into the Scriptures searching for every possible angle I could work out so that God would heal her.  I did not want to lose my mom, and so I cried out to God.  As I prayed, cried, and read the Word, I gradually released control over the situation.  I surrendered my mom to God. 

I didn't get any word that she'd be healed...what happened is my heart began to rest and my concern for her physical being became secondary to my desire for her spiritual state to be as God would have it.  My prayers brought me peace about the situation.  I trust God to be in control. 

She didn't get healed, physically.  But she grew tremendously spiritually.  Her peace became a witness to everyone she knows.  She had surgery, was given a full and permanent colostomy...and a sentence of "five years."  That was 8 years ago.  She has another tumor she's been battling the past four years.  When they found that one, they gave her 18 months.  She's not afraid to die.  It is not the worst thing that could ever happen to her.  It's a win/win situation.  She lives each day to the fullest...she loves life, but she loves God more.  She simply can't lose.

That's faith's promise.  Peace.  If you have it, without God...well, I'm profoundly amazed.  I didn't find it in myself...or in the world. 

Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: screwtape on July 31, 2009, 07:58:26 AM

Emily,
God may not heal someone physically...what He cares more about is our spiritual well-being. 

1. how do you know?
2. I find it a little too convenient that the invisible man with all the power cares about healing invisible, intangible wounds. 

I prayed hard when I learned my mother had colon cancer. 
<snip>
That's faith's promise.  Peace.  If you have it, without God...well, I'm profoundly amazed.  I didn't find it in myself...or in the world. 

Sorry about your mom.

My first thought when reading this post was that you were a stupid, deluded prat.  Sorry, but that was what I thought.  Then I tried to put myself in your position.  It is a tough position to be in, but one that ultimately we all have been in or will be in - facing the loss of a loved one. 

I do not think you are a stupid prat.  I can feel empathy for you.  You are going through a painful process which you do not understand, and so you call it "god".  That is so often the case for people.  Your pain is not spiritual, it is emotional.  A lot of people mix that up.  You have mentally and consciously accepted the situation, and that feels better.  I can see where religious beliefs can help guide you through the natural emotional progression you will have to go through to heal.

What you "found" was indeed in the world and within yourself.  You just do not understand it.  Don't feel bad.  Few of our species do. 
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: velkyn on July 31, 2009, 09:06:34 AM
Quote
Emily,
God may not heal someone physically...what He cares more about is our spiritual well-being
So, all of that physical healing in the OT and NT was for what?  Just God showing off? 
Quote
I prayed hard when I learned my mother had colon cancer.  I went into the Scriptures searching for every possible angle I could work out so that God would heal her.  I did not want to lose my mom, and so I cried out to God.  As I prayed, cried, and read the Word, I gradually released control over the situation.  I surrendered my mom to God. 
I didn't get any word that she'd be healed...what happened is my heart began to rest and my concern for her physical being became secondary to my desire for her spiritual state to be as God would have it.  My prayers brought me peace about the situation.  I trust God to be in control. 

How sad, you retreated into "It's God's will so no matter what, it's okay. It's not my problem any more."
Quote
She didn't get healed, physically.  But she grew tremendously spiritually.  Her peace became a witness to everyone she knows.  She had surgery, was given a full and permanent colostomy...and a sentence of "five years."  That was 8 years ago.  She has another tumor she's been battling the past four years.  When they found that one, they gave her 18 months.  She's not afraid to die.  It is not the worst thing that could ever happen to her.  It's a win/win situation.  She lives each day to the fullest...she loves life, but she loves God more.  She simply can't lose.
Pascal's wager strikes again. 
Quote
That's faith's promise.  Peace.  If you have it, without God...well, I'm profoundly amazed.  I didn't find it in myself...or in the world.
 
Why should you be amazed?  People have peace wether they believe or not.  Are you amazed at a theist who doesn't believe in your particular god having peace?  If peace is only from the divine, are their deities as real as yours?  Acceptance of the inevitable is common.  It's human.   
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Seppuku on August 03, 2009, 05:39:42 PM
Quote
So be it.  It makes me sad, but it sounds like your transformation is complete - prepare to become more machine than man as you lose your heart slowly over time.

It was good talking with you.

Chesterton, you really are arrogant.

I'LL EXPLAIN something to you.

"More machine than man." That is ignorant, arrogant and frankly stupid. Though I'd argue that following a set of instructions because of some great script is much more machine like than free thought and logical thinking. After all Christians do as they're told by the bible. A world without God or a soul and living with science and reason doesn't make you more of a machine and doesn't weaken your heart and I find it offensive that you'd suggest that of atheism, considering I view myself as a very 'hearty' kind of guy, and my 'heart' is actually one reason I find it difficult to believe in God, after all I see a lot of things in the bible as just plain wrong, which those like you overlook, skip across and overlook when you say "God is good". I think the bible has more potential of hardening weakening somebody's heart - I mean whilst you may wish to read the 'love this and that' parts of the bible, you seem to forget that the bible has some hateful and violent chapters that if committed today by humans would be seen as sick and vile.

I think Lonestar Grandad made an exellent point in a previous post (I think it was him) and that's by being an atheist and not believing in an afterlife makes your appreciate the life you have a whole lot more. As atheists this life is all we have and why waste it? We see those who devote themselves to worship an imaginary friends as people wasting their life. We may be bags of meat, but we have emotions and are able to feel, so why do WE HAVE to have God in order to love or to care for other people or to live our lives to be happy and to appreciate the great and beautiful things in this world?
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on August 03, 2009, 10:42:05 PM
Before I found this site over a month ago, I was really on the fence.  I had not reached a place where I was saying that God wasn't real.  But I had reached a place where I was saying that God does not do the things that the Bible and/or Christians say that He does.  However, I still considered my self a believer – just a rebellious one.

Then I found this website and watched the videos.  I devoured each and every link and read every single line of information.  I literally spent an entire day poring over this sight, watching the videos again, re-reading certain articles.  By that evening, I had come to full terms with my life as a Christian.  This thread is a result of that epiphany.

In starting this thread, I used one example of over 30 years of experiences as a Christian to try and relay how I had come to terms with my faith, or subsequent lack thereof.  My birth to rationalism was not strictly because of an allergy.  My allergy, and how God chose to interact with me about it, was but one step that culminated with my questions, doubt, fear, searching, enlightenment, and finally acceptance of the fact that the God  of the Bible does not exist.

So suffice it to say that I did not initially arrive at this site as an atheist.  But after having spent many weeks studying, debating, listening, and questioning – I feel that I have finally arrived at my true self.

The Christians who offered their debate (and I use that word loosely) only served to remind me of my initial questionings and also gave me a fresh look at how ridiculous my Christian arguments and explanations have been in the past.  They did nothing to “move me back to the fold.”  They only pushed me further away.

The Rationalists who offered their debate did so with such logic, intelligence, order, fairness, and forthrightness that I couldn't help but find my initial fears and doubts turn to confidence and assurance.

So be it.  It makes me sad, but it sounds like your transformation is complete - prepare to become more machine than man as you lose your heart slowly over time.
It was good talking with you.

As a final tribute to ol' Chesty, I would have to agree that, yes, my transformation is complete.

"More machine than man." That is ignorant, arrogant and frankly stupid. Though I'd argue that following a set of instructions because of some great script is much more machine like than free thought and logical thinking. After all Christians do as they're told by the bible.

Seppuku, there is no one so blind as the man who just wont see.  I used to be one of the machines like Chesterton.  He doesn't see that he is exactly what he claims I will become.  He spouts the same thing that all the other Christians spout.  I used to be one of these religious automatons and I never realized that I was more machine than man.  But then I never really opened my eyes either.  The Bible itself says that to be a Christian we must be as sheep.  No individuality, just sheep.  There is your machine.  Chesterton can't see it but I can.  That used to be me.

I think Lonestar Grandad made an exellent point in a previous post (I think it was him) and that's by being an atheist and not believing in an afterlife makes your appreciate the life you have a whole lot more. As atheists this life is all we have and why waste it?

Seppuku, this is my new reality and you have reiterated it with your usual eloquence.  This is my new life.  I find myself not wanting to waste a second of it.  Lately, my wife and I find ourselves asking each other, “What do you want to do now?”  We are so consumed with getting everything out of today that our lives are richer, fuller, happier, and more peaceful.  It was told to me that we have more peace because we have laid down a heavy burden.  I couldn't agree more!  At least we threw off the shackles before we were too old and bitter to enjoy this wonderful experience we call life.

I want to thank all of you for your instruction, debate, construction, and presence.  It has literally been a life-changing event, happening upon this site.  I don't know how much longer I will choose to debate the irrational ones (Christians) but I will check in from time to time. 

Thanks again to everyone.  Even though I don't know you personally, I count you all as friends.  And to my Christian counterparts I say, keep your eyes open.  You never know when the next “miracle” will actually be a total and complete denial of any miracle at all.  When that happens, you are really on to something!

  I am not a Christian, I am not a sinner, I am not a rebel, I am not an atheist.  I am LonestarGrandad :  non-believer in the unbelievable.   
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: William on August 03, 2009, 11:09:03 PM
Great post LonestarGrandad.  This is now officially my favourite thread on WWGHA - a triumph of rational thinking :)

Meanwhile Chesty will soldier on secure in the knowledge that his foot stopped hurting one day and therefore everything in the bible must be true  &)





Edit: little typo
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Seppuku on August 04, 2009, 03:17:59 AM
Likewise William, it's a good reminder of what a life without God exactly is as opposed to what some theists claim it to be.

Lonestar Grandad, it's probably better not to stress yourself with arguments with Christians (advice that I might one day listen to), although it's always too easy to want to just correct them or tell them that they're wrong about so many things, it's perhaps wiser in some respects to get on with your life, particularly when you have a new lease. I know some atheists might disagree, given the number of fundies and extremos out there.

Not all Christians are so bad, I mean I've known some kind and decent ones who aren't bothered at all by how people lead their lives and very much have a 'each to his own' attitude.

But I can say I've enjoyed reading this discussion, and I hope the Christians in this discussion will eventually think about what has been said and understand a little more what it means to not believe in a god, but then again I am an optimist. ;)
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: velkyn on August 04, 2009, 10:41:52 AM
Lonestar Grandad, it's probably better not to stress yourself with arguments with Christians (advice that I might one day listen to), although it's always too easy to want to just correct them or tell them that they're wrong about so many things, it's perhaps wiser in some respects to get on with your life, particularly when you have a new lease. I know some atheists might disagree, given the number of fundies and extremos out there.

Indeed, and that's why I like to take a break ever so often. Trying to counter stupidity every day can be wearing.  However, as others have said, it's something i can do whilst being bored at work and it gives my brain exercise. 
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Seppuku on August 04, 2009, 12:03:34 PM
Yes, it's like a crossword puzzle for those who don't like doing crossword puzzles.  ;D
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: stugol on October 02, 2009, 07:40:29 PM
Your big question is, “Why didn’t God tell me not to take aspirin.”  I could give you a much more specific answer if I could sit down in front of you and talk with you at length about this matter.  But because I have extremely limited information about you, your life, and what happened, I can only present some possibilities:

  • God could have been telling you not to take aspirin all along, but not in the voice you were looking for, and you didn’t hear Him.  He was willing to remove your affliction, but only if you learned to hear him on a deeper level.  Bringing you to a higher level of spirituality was more important than giving you normal health.  If you say, “Whatever He was trying to do didn’t work,” you haven’t seen the entire act yet.

And how long was he supposed to wait? Until he was 80? After his affliction had ruined his life?

  • You said you had a personal relationship with Him.  Was that relationship to the point of guiding you in all your activities?  God guides us in our conscience, without words, even about simple things like what to eat and what not to eat.  He could have been urging you to not to take the aspirin, and you didn’t hear him.

If an omnipotent god is "urging", and yet "not heard", he's obviously speaking TOO QUIETLY.

"Urging" means he was attempting to be heard. Therefore he either wasn't powerful enough, or was deliberately speaking too quietly.

  • Your affliction could have been completely not your fault, but for the sake of others, to remind them that their daily troubles aren’t so bad.

In other words:

"Oh, it's alright that you suffer, because others can point at you and say, we're better off than him"

That is quite possibly the most callous thing I have ever heard anyone say. I hope all of your limbs drop off, that your face turns into an arsehole, and that your penis starts growing inward! Just imagine how much joy you'll bring to other people then!! They will look at you and say, that man is REALLY badly off. And by your own reasoning, they will feel SO much better for it.

You are a callous, evil person.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: stugol on October 02, 2009, 07:48:14 PM
Your suffering could have had little to do with you, but could have been completely for others’ benefit. 

You repeat your callous statement here. Have you no humanity or compassion whatsoever?

Many mothers sacrifice most of their own rest and comfort and interests for the sake of their children.

Yes. VOLUNTARILY.

Again, I can’t make any firm conclusions without knowing you personally.  But I gave you one example of why God could have had a good reason to leave you with your affliction until you were 30-something years old:
Your affliction could have been completely not your fault, but for the sake of others, to remind them that their daily troubles aren’t so bad.
There could have been numerous people you knew or ran into during the course of your affliction that were in the habit of focusing too much on small annoyances in their lives.  By seeing how much you suffered, it acutely reminded them that their problems were not so bad, and that they needed to focus on more important things, that they had a good life, and should be thankful.

And you have the gall to quote your earlier, unforgiveable statement, I notice!
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: GetMeThere on October 02, 2009, 07:52:47 PM
Wow! GREAT thread! I hadn't caught this one before now. Congratulations, LSGD and LSGM for being honest with yourselves and living your life with integrity and clarity!

I highly recommend looking up videos on youtube with "The Atheist Experience" in the titles. They are clips from a local TV show in Austin TX. The president of the organization--and often host of the broadcasts--is Matt Dillahunty. He was raised a baptist, lived as a baptist for 30 years, and was studying to be a minister when his transformation took place. I'm sure you would find MANY gems in his shows that would be of benefit to you.

Best of luck!
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on October 04, 2009, 01:27:38 AM
Hey Stugol and Get Me There,

So nice to get your imput and encouragement.  Stugol, isn't the "Christian Spirit" of love amazing?  It seems I have been called a plethora of nasty things since telling my story in this forum.  Funny thing is, it has all been by "God is Love" Christians.  The "non-believers" have been nothing but kind, understanding, helpful, and enlightening.

I wasn't ready for the people I used to call brothers and sisters to want to tear me apart like they did.  But then again, I think my thread hits too close to home for them.  My story is not conjecture or theory, it is true and I tell it just the way it happened to me.  I don't think my ex-brothers and ex-sisters can handle it, so they attack it. 

Get Me There,
Thanks for the encouragement.  We have been living this life of integrity and clarity for less than 6 months now.  (We didn't fully take the plunge until recently.)  We have talked it out for quite a while but only in the last few months have we reached the place where we can actually utter the words:  "I don't believe in the god of the bible.  I DO believe that he is imaginary."  Thanks to this website and forum, I am now firmly entrenched in unbelief.  (of course if the son of god appeared to me right now, I might have to give pause and unentrench myself . . . nope, nothing to see here.  I am still fully entrenched.)  I will check out the you tube clips.  It seems that I am now devouring everything I can on this subject.  We have watched the films Religulous and The God That Wasn't There as well as The Athiest TapesThe Athiest Experience looks good as well, we well check it out.  Thanks again to both of you and just so you know, I enjoy both of your posts. 
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Gnu Ordure on October 04, 2009, 10:50:44 AM
Hi LSGDad/Mom,

I don't believe we've met. I'm Gnu, how do you do?

I was reading your story, and was trying to get my head round the immense change you've made in your lives. Personally, I've never been religious, so it's hard for me to understand what it means to give up an all-encompassing philosophy after decades of believing it.

I was reminded of a few words of wisdom that I came across forty years ago, and I thought they might be helpful to you in this period of transition. They are only the words of one man, so they carry no particular authority. But for me they have been a source of inspiration and encouragement over the years.

Halfway through writing this I decided to start a new thread on the subject instead, which you can find here (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=9447.msg212707;topicseen#msg212707).

So it's now addressed to everyone, but I wrote it with you in mind. Hope you like it.

Best Wishes,

Gnu.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on October 04, 2009, 05:49:16 PM
Hi LSGDad/Mom,
I was reading your story, and was trying to get my head round the immense change you've made in your lives. Personally, I've never been religious, so it's hard for me to understand what it means to give up an all-encompassing philosophy after decades of believing it.

Hello Gnu, how do you do? 

It's true that a lot has changed in our lives this year and we are still kind of finding our way.  What does it mean to give up a philosophy that has been as much a part of you as, say, breathing?  At first it is a little fearful.  So much of who you are is wrapped up in this belief system that validates you as a good person and challenges you as a sinner. 

For me, my Christianity gave me purpose and fulfillment.  I felt I was a part of something bigger than myself.  I felt that I had direction and guidance from a higher power who really knew me and cared about me.    This is just a little example of the "good" that I derived from being a Christian.  My Christianity defined me and I liked the definition. 

But the thing that Christians don't ever admit to themselves is the fact that this belief system is incredibly oppressive.  We are told, and we tell others, that God is love.  Jesus cares about us.  He knew us before we were born.  All the hairs on our head are numbered.  No one loves us, knows us, or cares about us like God does.  We bask in the glory of His love.  But we are seldom willing to open our eyes to the oppression that comes with His “love.”

I never really saw the clarity of it until the last few months.  My Christianity defined me and I liked the definition.  But if I only like myself through the looking glass of Christianity didn't that also reveal that without Christianity I am filled with self loathing?  In fact, that is exactly what it revealed and what is also perpetuated by the scriptures themselves. 

Many scriptures tell us that we are hopeless without Christ.  I used to love to quote the scripture that “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.”  But now I see that even that scripture diminishes me as a person, as a human being.  Is it really true that I have to filter all of the good  I can do through the supposed perfection of Christ?  Is it true that without Christ, I am nothing?  Is it true that I owe everything to Him and not myself?  If it is true, than I am very oppressed indeed. 

Pride, independence, self value, and self fulfillment are taboo to Christians.  But as a human being, aren't these the very building blocks of life?  As Christians we strive to be humble, meek and lowly.  We are admonished to be good sheep following the shepherd.  But as human beings aren't we better off being leaders and mentors?  Full of the pride of accomplishment and the drive to succeed?  Aren't we better off as lions instead of lambs?  But this, again, underscores the oppression of Christianity:  Jesus is the Lion, and we are the lambs. 

In the last few months I have trimmed the above scripture quotation somewhat.  “I can do all things, period!” is my new mantra.  Of course, I can't do all things.  But the things that I can do, I do them on my own.  I am the author and finisher and this gives me a new definition of myself, a definition I like much better.

So, in short:  giving up on the idea that God is your everything – your hero - leaves you with a great gaping emptiness . . . until that emptiness begins to fill up with the idea that you don't need a cosmic hero.  That you are your own hero.  That until you accept yourself as your own hero, you are diminishing yourself.  It turns out the “Jesus shaped hole” that someone talked about in another thread is not Jesus shaped at all.  It turns out it is LonestarGrandad shaped and I am valuable enough on my own.

Thanks again for the list,  we have printed a copy and will be referring to it often.  I don't know what the highway ahead holds but isn't the view amazing?

LSGD
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: William on October 04, 2009, 06:16:21 PM
Pride, independence, self value, and self fulfillment are taboo to Christians.  But as a human being, aren't these the very building blocks of life?  As Christians we strive to be humble, meek and lowly.  We are admonished to be good sheep following the shepherd.  But as human beings aren't we better off being leaders and mentors?  Full of the pride of accomplishment and the drive to succeed?  Aren't we better off as lions instead of lambs?  But this, again, underscores the oppression of Christianity:  Jesus is the Lion, and we are the lambs. 

Reading this made my skin tingle and the hairs on my neck stand up - all the atoms and cells in my body lined up in agreement.   
I have two words for this:  Courage. Honesty.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Azdgari on October 04, 2009, 06:28:18 PM
Nietzsche couldn't have said it better, LSG.  It is one of the areas in which he was right on the ball.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: GetMeThere on October 04, 2009, 06:57:25 PM
hey, another recommendation for you, LSG--in case a lifetime in the church has kept you away from the latest developments in science that...ummm....some churchgoers are known to avoid...

Have a view of the videos from potholer54 on youtube. They are quite short, but VERY much to the point. They supply a LOT of information that's accurate, well explained, and well condensed--making it possible to learn a very great deal with rather little effort.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: stugol on October 04, 2009, 07:00:23 PM
In time, however, their rhetoric will grow tiresome.  They will spin their hypotheticals, since their worldview doesn't work in the real world and they have to use hypotheticals, and you will one day realize you've heard the same-old tired song many times before. 

Um....doesn't this sound amusingly close to a description of theists?

Yet Chesterton was in fact referring to rational people aka atheists. How odd.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: Gnu Ordure on October 04, 2009, 07:06:01 PM
LSGD,

For some reason, I was halfway through reading your post and I found myself in tears.

Really. And it's a bit weird, because I don't quite understand why I'm crying.

So I'm not capable of saying anything sensible to you at the moment.

Except, welcome to our world. We don't know what's going on. It's a weird place. It is what you make it. And we're all in it together.

See? Incapable of sense, as I said.

Catch you later,

Gnu.

PS William:
Quote
Reading this made my skin tingle and the hairs on my neck stand up

Ah, good. Not just me then.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: stugol on October 04, 2009, 07:07:44 PM
So be it.  It makes me sad, but it sounds like your transformation is complete - prepare to become more machine than man as you lose your heart slowly over time.

This stuck-up prick is really starting to get on my nerves.

Chesterton, who the hell do you think you are, to sit on your high horse and pronounce sentence like that? Just goes to demonstrate what arseholes[1] (many) Christians really are.
 1. Yes, I'm English.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: stugol on October 04, 2009, 07:11:05 PM
He used this ailment to draw you into faith.  He hoped that it would bring you into a full reliance on Him for all things.

Let me get this straight. God hoped that by proving that he couldn't rely on God for ONE thing, to convince him to rely on God for ALL THINGS?

Oh, and parents who try to teach their children to "rely on them for all things" are called "co-dependant" and are harmful.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: stugol on October 04, 2009, 07:14:52 PM
Also, LSGD, explain to me why the doctor could not have been the answer.  Was he not created by God? 

The doctor, like the rest of us, was created by sexual reproduction.  His parents banged and 9 months later the larval form of the doctor emerged from his mother's stretched-to-capacity vagina, which was never the same after.  It was not a miracle.  It was very mundane, vulgar, even.  You see, every person you see today was produced in the exact same manner, though probably from many different positions.  All mammals do it like that too.

*giggles self to bits*

You have a way with words, my friend.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: stugol on October 04, 2009, 07:24:10 PM
I talk to atheists now through this website, but I know a few personally.  They are not happy people and many have a tough time fitting in because their worldview does not fit reality.

Firstly, how does their worldview not fit reality?

Indeed, when does "the origin of the universe" ever come into normal discussion? I ask that question because, you see, the ONLY form of god that has NOT been thoroughly and comprehensively DISPROVEN from here to hell and back again on this website is the God of the Gaps. I've only been a member of this forum for about a week, and already I can see that all mainstream religions[1] have been demonstrated to be totally bogus.

Secondly, even if their worldview does not "fit reality", how does this make it difficult for them to "fit in"? Fit in to what, for that matter? Society? If they're having trouble "fitting in" to society, maybe it's more the fault of the TWO BILLION DELUDED PEOPLE that make up the vast majority of said society?

You, Chesterton, are an arrogant bigot; and likely a liar too.
 1. EDIT: Alright, all forms of Christianity, anyway.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: stugol on October 04, 2009, 07:36:31 PM
The Bible itself says that to be a Christian we must be as sheep.  No individuality, just sheep.  There is your machine.  Chesterton can't see it but I can.  That used to be me.

Interesting... I am writing a book, one part of which focuses on the contradictions and plain stupidity of religion. Could you point me at some passages in the Bible that SPECIFICALLY instruct followers to switch off their powers of reasoning and be like sheep? No need to quote them if you don't want to - the verse numbers and such will be fine.

Or would this be better in a thread of its own? Meh. I daresay a mod will split it, if it becomes a problem.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on October 04, 2009, 07:55:31 PM
Reading this made my skin tingle and the hairs on my neck stand up - all the atoms and cells in my body lined up in agreement.   
I have two words for this:  Courage. Honesty.

Nietzsche couldn't have said it better, LSG.  It is one of the areas in which he was right on the ball.

LSGD,
For some reason, I was halfway through reading your post and I found myself in tears.
Really. And it's a bit weird, because I don't quite understand why I'm crying.
So I'm not capable of saying anything sensible to you at the moment.
Except, welcome to our world. We don't know what's going on. It's a weird place. It is what you make it. And we're all in it together.

I'm kind of at a loss for words.

My wife and I have gained a lot in this short journey of discovery.  But one of the things we have lost, literally, is the sense of community that comes from being a part of a church and a group of believers.  We had resigned ourselves to the idea that this was the price we would have to pay for being honest with ourselves.  (As shown by Christian posters in this thread, shunning is par for the course)

But little did we know that we would gain as much community as we had lost, more so even, from those who had taken this journey before us or had arrived at this place from other avenues.  We count you as friends and mentors. 

LSGD/LSGM
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on October 05, 2009, 12:25:02 AM
hey, another recommendation for you, LSG--in case a lifetime in the church has kept you away from the latest developments in science that...ummm....some churchgoers are known to avoid...

Have a view of the videos from potholer54 on youtube. They are quite short, but VERY much to the point. They supply a LOT of information that's accurate, well explained, and well condensed--making it possible to learn a very great deal with rather little effort.

Just finished watching the "made easy" videos.  Very useful and informative.  When I think about the things I used to cling to as "truth" it only makes me shake my head.  Intelligent Design and Creation Science is nothing more than misdirection and misinformation used to buttress a preconcieved conclusion.  Yet when you begin with the statement "God said it, I believe it, that settles it" you are more than willing to buy into the misdirection.  I may not be brilliant, but I'm smarter than that.  I may revisit the Creation Science Museum in Glenrose some time in the future with different glasses on.
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: GetMeThere on October 05, 2009, 01:18:47 AM
Glad you liked the potholer videos, LSG. Potholer is a professional geologist and science writer. My field is molecular and cell biology, but as far as I can tell, his information on everything is as reliable as it gets.

btw, if you've only watched the "Made Easy" series you missed one of potholer's earliest and most compelling videos:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXfIop5ZOsY[/youtube]
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: kin hell on October 05, 2009, 03:02:35 AM
Haven't seen that before GetMe  ............potent vid.    ..................thanks
Title: Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
Post by: LonestarGrandad on October 05, 2009, 07:18:24 AM
Yet another compelling video.  Thanks GMT.