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Community Zone => Chatter => Topic started by: Disciple of Sagan on May 13, 2014, 12:44:37 AM

Title: d&d
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 13, 2014, 12:44:37 AM
Oh fer...What kind of munchkin game do you play?

I was known back in high school as "The walking, talking Dungeon Master Guide" because I could rattle off the top of my head anything related to the Dungeons & Dragons rule books.

Yeah, I never got invited to all of the cool kids parties. :-\
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Fiji on May 13, 2014, 02:16:16 AM
Yeah, I never got invited to all of the cool kids parties. :-\

meh, their loss
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 13, 2014, 03:34:12 AM
Yeah, I never got invited to all of the cool kids parties. :-\

meh, their loss

Thanks Fiji. <hugs> :)

You wouldn't be a fellow RPGer by chance?
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: screwtape on May 13, 2014, 11:28:01 AM
I was known back in high school as "The walking, talking Dungeon Master Guide" because I could rattle off the top of my head anything related to the Dungeons & Dragons rule books.

Yeah, I never got invited to all of the cool kids parties. :-\

Of course you didn't, but that's not what I'm talking about.  What self respecting gamer would have "20th lvl Wizard/Cleric 20/Loremaster 10/Archmage 5 with a divine rank of 18" as a possible outcome of their game?  What kind of power-gaming munchkinry is that?  Blah. 
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 13, 2014, 11:54:28 AM
I was known back in high school as "The walking, talking Dungeon Master Guide" because I could rattle off the top of my head anything related to the Dungeons & Dragons rule books.

Yeah, I never got invited to all of the cool kids parties. :-\

Of course you didn't, but that's not what I'm talking about.  What self respecting gamer would have "20th lvl Wizard/Cleric 20/Loremaster 10/Archmage 5 with a divine rank of 18" as a possible outcome of their game?  What kind of power-gaming munchkinry is that?  Blah.

"Mystra" (the Goddess of Magic) is a deity from the Forgotten Realms setting. Those are her stats from the "Faiths and Pantheons" rulebook. She seemed like she could kick other god's arses, which is why I submitted her.  ;D

The highest level I ever got a character was a 12th lvl human Fighter named Aria Amberhawk. She truly prodded buttocks with her two weapon fighting skills. Gawd, I am such a geekette.
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: screwtape on May 13, 2014, 11:57:34 AM
I was known back in high school as "The walking, talking Dungeon Master Guide" because I could rattle off the top of my head anything related to the Dungeons & Dragons rule books.

Yeah, I never got invited to all of the cool kids parties. :-\

Of course you didn't, but that's not what I'm talking about.  What self respecting gamer would have "20th lvl Wizard/Cleric 20/Loremaster 10/Archmage 5 with a divine rank of 18" as a possible outcome of their game?  What kind of power-gaming munchkinry is that?  Blah.

"Mystra" (the Goddess of Magic) is a deity from the Forgotten Realms setting. Those are her stats from the "Faiths and Pantheons" rulebook. She seemed like she could kick other god's arses, which is why I submitted her.  ;D


Ahhhhh!  I thought this was your character!  I'm an opinionated hardass when it comes to dnd.  And most other things.
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 13, 2014, 12:01:49 PM
Ahhhhh!  I thought this was your character!  I'm an opinionated hardass when it comes to dnd.  And most other things.

Nah, I was a vanilla 12th lvl human Fighter named Aria Amberhawk.

My last gaming group was great because we all were against power gaming. Ah, the good old days...

I eventually lost interest once WotC released D&D 4th edition after I had spent close to $500 on version 3.5 rulebooks. Meh. :-\
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: screwtape on May 13, 2014, 02:11:31 PM
I eventually lost interest once WotC released D&D 4th edition after I had spent close to $500 on version 3.5 rulebooks. Meh. :-\

Nothing says you have to play 4e.  I tried it and hate it.  I'll not give wotc another dime.

I've not really played in about 10 years.  But I've been thinking about it a lot lately.  I am considering using AD&D as a starting point and redesigning it to suit me.
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 13, 2014, 02:18:37 PM
I've not really played in about 10 years.  But I've been thinking about it a lot lately.  I am considering using AD&D as a starting point and redesigning it to suit me.

That's about the same amount of time since my last group. Truth be told, if it wasn't for my working nights I would consider dusting off my trusty 20-sided dice and find a local group to join (if there were any... D&D seems to have gone the way of the dinosaur in my neck of the woods, southern Connecticut).
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: One Above All on May 13, 2014, 02:19:58 PM
I've never played D&D, but I've considered it. What's it like?
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 13, 2014, 02:26:40 PM
I've never played D&D, but I've considered it. What's it like?

The short answer: It's basically a pen and paper role playing game where you create a swords and sorcery themed character (such as a warrior, wizard, cleric or thief), then you and a few other friends are taken on a verbal adventure by someone acting as sort of a storyteller/referee (called the "DM"; short for "Dungeon Master". Your roll dice to determine outcomes of battles with monsters and such. Your character then gains experience and treasure as he/she slowly grows in power.

What makes it truly fun is to "get in to character" and talk and act like you would envision your character would.
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: screwtape on May 13, 2014, 02:38:29 PM
(if there were any... D&D seems to have gone the way of the dinosaur in my neck of the woods, southern Connecticut).

They are there.  You just need to look under rocks to find them.  But they are there.


I've never played D&D, but I've considered it. What's it like?

Mutual fantasy.  LIke when kids play "pretend" only with rules for resolving conflict.
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: One Above All on May 13, 2014, 02:41:45 PM
The short answer: It's basically a pen and paper role playing game where you create a swords and sorcery themed character (such as a warrior, wizard, cleric or thief), then you and a few other friends are taken on a verbal adventure by someone acting as sort of a storyteller/referee (called the "DM"; short for "Dungeon Master". Your roll dice to determine outcomes of battles with monsters and such. Your character then gains experience and treasure as he/she slowly grows in power.

What makes it truly fun is to "get in to character" and talk and act like you would envision your character would.

Do you get as many choices in actions as you can imagine? Or are they limited to a dozen or less choices, like in computer RPG's? I assume each game you play is separate from all the others, right? As in, if you play a game with a few of your friends and acquire some kind of treasure and/or level up, then play a game with someone else, does your character goes back to level 1, or whatever the starting point is? What kind of items and monsters are there? Player types (you mentioned warrior, wizard, cleric, and thief)?
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Fiji on May 13, 2014, 03:20:46 PM
You wouldn't be a fellow RPGer by chance?

I would have if I'd had access to kindred spirits, but this being Belgium and my home town being particularly christian, there were no such follies to be pursued. I got my RPG-ing from the likes of Bard's tale on the trusty old C64. Loved me the hell out of that one. And of course M:TG.
I have since veered off into the direction of writing games ... Star Trek, a geopolitical game, a fantasy game and as the fellow in my avatar picture can attest, wrestling RPGs.
Never did get to enjoy D&D. *quiet sob* ;)
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Lukvance on May 13, 2014, 03:42:08 PM
Me want to play D&D !
What about one with Sagan as the LM?
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: wright on May 13, 2014, 04:31:53 PM
I've played most versions of D&D, plus Call of Cthulhu, Champions, Loremaster, Space: 1889, R. Talsorian Games' Cyberpunk 2020 and Mekton, and the various editions of Traveller[1]. I'm a lifetime paper-and-pencil type.

Lately I've been getting interested in a very fast-moving generic system called Savage Worlds. The particular campaign I'm in now is a Weird West setting: a post-Civil War US where magic has returned to the world. My character is an apocalyptic-sect preacher who thinks he's calling on Yahweh's power to heal his friends and smite zombies. But the Game Master has a nasty sense of humor and might be setting me up; have to wait and see.

In my experience, it's more the people than the game system that makes a roleplaying session fun or not. A good GM (Game Master) can make even badly written / edited game mechanics work. Players too, by immersing themselves in their characters and just being polite, friendly people can bring a dull setting to life. Conversely, a GM intent on forcing the game towards a certain outcome at the expense of fun will ruin things for everybody, and rude / disruptive players can distract and derail others' enjoyment. My experiences have been mostly of the first kind, fortunately.
 1. The SF roleplaying game, no relation to our esteemed forum member. As far as I know.
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: shnozzola on May 13, 2014, 06:11:26 PM
I've never played D&D, but I've considered it. What's it like?

Here's  D & D, from the view of a twelfth level aged druid.

Dungeon Master (DM):   Do you open the door?
Party, led by the ranger:  Yes, we open the door.
DM:  Roll for surprise.
Party, magic user:   We roll a natch 20.
DM:  You do have surprise.  You see a hooded figure in front of a chest, it is beginning to read off of a scroll.  There is a purple light coming from beneath the hood.  There is something writhing at his or her's feet.   What do you do?
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Lukvance on May 13, 2014, 06:18:15 PM
Ruuuuun
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Traveler on May 13, 2014, 06:30:20 PM
I found my current gaming groups through meetup.com. It took a few tries before I found a group with similar gaming style to mine, but you can find some good groups out there. Ironically, one of my groups is giving ADnD 2nd edition a try right now. Talk about stepping into the WAY back machine!!! LOL

We played a one-shot to get the feel of things and might tweak some rules and start up a longer term campaign later this summer.
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: wright on May 13, 2014, 07:03:02 PM
^^^Haha! Talking about 2nd Edition always makes me think of a line from the webcomic Something Positive: "You're so cute when you nerd-rage! Tell me again how THAC0 ruined D&D for a decade!"

Good luck with the new campaign, Traveler.
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: shnozzola on May 13, 2014, 07:07:57 PM
Ruuuuun

"Don't run, Luk," screams our elf, Pixiestix.  "Oh ye of little faith.  I shoot a poison arrow directly into the purple light,"  says the elf. 
DM:     "What do you do, druid?"
Me: " I'm running with Luk, I believe we are facing the wraith that commands this castle!"
DM:   Ranger Rick?
Ranger Rick:  " + 4 sword towards the wraith's feet at the snake."
DM:  " Are you sure it's a snake? - it has started raising up!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsx2vdn7gpY
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Lukvance on May 13, 2014, 07:10:52 PM
"use your arrows from over here ranger" *still running
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 13, 2014, 09:28:11 PM
Holy hit dice, Batman! So many fellow gamers here! <geekgasm> ;D

Do you get as many choices in actions as you can imagine? Or are they limited to a dozen or less choices, like in computer RPG's? I assume each game you play is separate from all the others, right? As in, if you play a game with a few of your friends and acquire some kind of treasure and/or level up, then play a game with someone else, does your character goes back to level 1, or whatever the starting point is? What kind of items and monsters are there? Player types (you mentioned warrior, wizard, cleric, and thief)?

I apologize for this brief response; I'm posting from work.

Usually, you play with the same group of people. My old group had 11 players, and we would get together every Saturday for a 6 hour marathon session. Your character's progress is carried over to each new adventure for as long as you want to continue to play as that particular character. As for the choices your character can make during your turn, it's pretty much how shnozzola describes it.

As for character choices, in "normal" D&D you can be a human, elf, dwarf, halfling (think hobbits), half elf or a half Orc. Each race had their own strengths and weaknesses. The you pick what class you wish to play, with Fighter, Cleric, Wizard and Rogue being the archetypes, with sub classes that give you further customized roles, such as a Ranger (a woodsy Fighter type) or a Druid (a tree hugging Cleric).

I found a YouTube video that helps to explain things:
http://youtu.be/0coCYi05koo (http://youtu.be/0coCYi05koo)

I'll respond to everyone else later. THAC0! Priceless! ;D
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 13, 2014, 11:50:46 PM
They are there.  You just need to look under rocks to find them.  But they are there.

My local comic book shop used to have a bulletin board for players looking to form/join a group, but ended up getting rid of it right around the time that D&D Online hit the PC.

I also used to play online at "Garic's City"', which was a post-based version over on the WotC Forum before that, too, became defunct.

Was AD&D your first exposure to the game? I'm showing my age when I admit that I remember when D&D Basic and Expert editions 1st came out (in the pink and blue boxes with the creamsicle orange dice).

I got my RPG-ing from the likes of Bard's tale on the trusty old C64. Loved me the hell out of that one.
I loved Bard's Tale! They rereleased it for PC a couple of years ago. I was also addicted to the D&D game "Pool of Radiance" for the C64.

I've played most versions of D&D, plus Call of Cthulhu, Champions, Loremaster, Space: 1889, R. Talsorian Games' Cyberpunk 2020 and Mekton, and the various editions of Traveller[1]. I'm a lifetime paper-and-pencil type.
 1. The SF roleplaying game, no relation to our esteemed forum member. As far as I know.

Ahhhh, memories. I remember playing Champions and Traveler along with Gamma World and Boot Hill.

Quote
In my experience, it's more the people than the game system that makes a roleplaying session fun or not. A good GM (Game Master) can make even badly written / edited game mechanics work. Players too, by immersing themselves in their characters and just being polite, friendly people can bring a dull setting to life. Conversely, a GM intent on forcing the game towards a certain outcome at the expense of fun will ruin things for everybody, and rude / disruptive players can distract and derail others' enjoyment. My experiences have been mostly of the first kind, fortunately.

You couldn't be more right. Our DM from my last group was an excellent storyteller who had a knack for always keeping us on our toes and rewarded players who stayed in character.

We did have one power gamer in the group that we ended up kicking out after being repeatedly caught fudging dice rolls.
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 13, 2014, 11:52:03 PM
^^^Haha! Talking about 2nd Edition always makes me think of a line from the webcomic Something Positive: "You're so cute when you nerd-rage! Tell me again how THAC0 ruined D&D for a decade!"

Remember this?  ;D
http://youtu.be/zng5kRle4FA (http://youtu.be/zng5kRle4FA)
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Lukvance on May 13, 2014, 11:56:35 PM
Magic Missile ! lol great memories.
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 13, 2014, 11:57:50 PM
I found my current gaming groups through meetup.com. It took a few tries before I found a group with similar gaming style to mine, but you can find some good groups out there. Ironically, one of my groups is giving ADnD 2nd edition a try right now. Talk about stepping into the WAY back machine!!! LOL

We played a one-shot to get the feel of things and might tweak some rules and start up a longer term campaign later this summer.

I'll give meetup.com a look. Thanks for the info!

I think I gave all my AD&D rule books to my sister years ago after I started playing 3rd edition. I'll have to see about getting them back....

Magic Missile ! lol great memories.

Yeah, that one's a classic. :laugh:
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: eh! on May 14, 2014, 04:54:14 AM
I don't get any of this. i just worked my childhood away doing my bit to keep the family business afloat then left home early to help fund my sister thru college.


i no zero of the pop culture of mine or any era...just work.




i always see this kind of biz the thing of  lazy/loafers.


We weren't the cool kids we were the violent realists and would have ruined your game.
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: screwtape on May 14, 2014, 10:04:44 AM
Do you get as many choices in actions as you can imagine?

That is how it is supposed to work, yes.  The DM[1] determines the plausibility of your actions if they are not covered by existing rules and dice may or may not be rolled to determine the outcome.

I assume each game you play is separate from all the others, right?

It depends what the DM allows.  I generally do allow other characters into my game but they may lose some equipment in the transition if they are out of balance with my current players.   

 1. dungeon master
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 14, 2014, 11:31:56 AM
I don't get any of this. i just worked my childhood away doing my bit to keep the family business afloat then left home early to help fund my sister thru college.

I'm sorry to hear that. It's admirable that you did what you had to in order to help your family.

i no zero of the pop culture of mine or any era...just work.

Quote
i always see this kind of biz the thing of  lazy/loafers.

It's not like we play D&D or similar games 24/7. 


Quote
We weren't the cool kids....

Neither was I or the rest of my group back in high school. It gave us something to do on Saturday nights since we were never invited to the cool kid's parties (the "Aristocracy" as we used to call them).
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Lukvance on May 14, 2014, 08:26:05 PM
Magic Missile! http://youtu.be/qM7YhMfN0v4
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Willie on May 14, 2014, 09:07:43 PM
I've never played D&D, but I've considered it. What's it like?

It's like this (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.ASP). Yep, exactly like that. According to Jack Chick, anyway. And you know you can trust a guy who says that evolution is like this (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1041/1041_01.asp) to give you the straight dope.
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: One Above All on May 15, 2014, 12:45:58 AM
It's like this (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.ASP). Yep, exactly like that. According to Jack Chick, anyway. And you know you can trust a guy who says that evolution is like this (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1041/1041_01.asp) to give you the straight dope.


Thank you, Willie. Now I have to get rid of my long-term memory.
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 15, 2014, 08:58:20 PM
Well, I did some searching and it tuns out that the two individuals in my area who had placed ads are only looking to join D&D 4th edition groups.

Darned these kids and their new-fangled 4th editions. Why, when I was their age all we had was 3.5, and we were darned fortunate to have it! Grumble grumble...
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Hatter23 on May 15, 2014, 09:06:53 PM
Well, I did some searching and it tuns out that the two individuals in my area who had placed ads are only looking to join D&D 4th edition groups.

Darned these kids and their new-fangled 4th editions. Why, when I was their age all we had was 3.5, and we were darned fortunate to have it! Grumble grumble...

I remember having the Players handbook with the Demon Statue on the cover with the thieves trying to steal part of it...and old D&Ders stating the same thing about the Brown Book rules. Yes the 1974 Brown Books rules.
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 15, 2014, 09:17:11 PM
I remember having the Players handbook with the Demon Statue on the cover with the thieves trying to steal part of it...and old D&Ders stating the same thing about the Brown Book rules. Yes the 1974 Brown Books rules.

Yeah, they did. Rangers, paladins, illusionists and Druids were added... Alignments went from just Lawful, Neutral and Chaotic to adding Good and Evil to the mix. It was the Golden Age of D&D.
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: eh! on May 15, 2014, 09:25:14 PM
Still trying to get my head around. does this game involve strategy??
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 15, 2014, 11:57:44 PM
Still trying to get my head around. does this game involve strategy??

During combat, yes. Each character has their own strengths, skills and abilities. A successful group knows how to work together to make the best use of them.

For instance, the wizard in a party might need a minute to use his magic against an opponent and is vulnerable to being attacked while he is concentrating on casting a spell (such as Lightning Bolt). The warrior might position himself between the wizard and the monsters to act as a human shield until the spell is cast. The cleric (think priest) of the group might use his healing magic on the warrior to keep him in fighting shape. The thief of the group might then use the opportunity to sneak in the shadows in order to backstab the monsters, creating a flanking position with the warrior which gives both of them bonuses during combat.
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Lukvance on May 16, 2014, 12:08:35 AM
Arrrrrg listening to you makes me wanna play so bad hahaha. I forget how much I loved this game. I guess I'll get a magic the gathering fix this weekend while I wait for the opportunity to play d&d again.
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 16, 2014, 12:23:37 AM
Arrrrrg listening to you makes me wanna play so bad hahaha. I forget how much I loved this game. I guess I'll get a magic the gathering fix this weekend while I wait for the opportunity to play d&d again.

Same here. Sadly, I think the majority of D&D fans have moved on from "old school" pen-and-paper to playing the online version for the PC. It's just not the same. :-\
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Hatter23 on May 16, 2014, 07:13:20 AM
I remember having the Players handbook with the Demon Statue on the cover with the thieves trying to steal part of it...and old D&Ders stating the same thing about the Brown Book rules. Yes the 1974 Brown Books rules.

Yeah, they did. Rangers, paladins, illusionists and Druids were added... Alignments went from just Lawful, Neutral and Chaotic to adding Good and Evil to the mix. It was the Golden Age of D&D.

Actually, I think 3.0 was the best version made and that came out well after I stopped playing regularly. Cleaned up a lot of unnecessary number crunching and conflicting rules, and made the characters more three dimensional. 4.0 is dumbed down in the extreme, and feel more like a late 90s computer game than D&D.
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 07:23:37 AM
How is the winner/s determined and how does a game end. how long does a typical. game go for??
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: One Above All on May 16, 2014, 07:25:11 AM
How is the winner/s determined and how does a game end.

IIRC it ends when the DM decides it does and/or when the players get through the dungeon or whatever.

how long does a typical. game go for??

Hours, I'd bet. Maybe days.
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: screwtape on May 16, 2014, 08:32:57 AM
How is the winner/s determined

It is not that kind of game.  You don't have winners and losers.  The best kinds of games are the kind where the players collaborate, not compete. You survive or you die.  You prosper or you do not.

Let me try to explain it better.  It is a fantasy game.  That is, you as a group participate in a fantasy.  The DM creates the world/ setting.  He sets the stage and fulfills the role(s) of the universe.  The rest of the players interact with it. 

The guys who invented d&d based it on Lord of the Rings[1], which is a good example of how a game scenario may play out.  You, the players, have adventures like the hobbits did. 

In some cases the DM says "this is your goal" in other cases, goals are entirely player driven ("I want to build a castle/ steal a gem/ marry the princess/ crush my enemies").  So, you sort of create a story as you go.  It is a lot like improv, only there are rules for resolving conflict.  If you wish to fight someone, there is a system to determine who wins the combat.  If you wish to climb a wall or avoid a trap, there are game mechanics for that, all of which involve rolling various dice.

A game that lasts more than one session is called a campaign.   In a campaign, you will have more than one adventure.  Later adventures are direct results of the prior ones. 

and how does a game end. how long does a typical. game go for??

It depends.  I ran a campaign that lasted for 10 years. A given game session would last 4-6 hours.  We would stop when we got tired or had a good place to leave off.

 1. though they lied and said they didn't.  but the facts are the facts
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 09:00:15 AM
For fuk that's not even a game, its like theatre sports.


I'm gonna smack the next d&d person i see and screwtape it will be cos of your explanation .


this whole concept sux.


thanks for reply.
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Boots on May 16, 2014, 09:29:29 AM
I remember having the Players handbook with the Demon Statue on the cover with the thieves trying to steal part of it...and old D&Ders stating the same thing about the Brown Book rules. Yes the 1974 Brown Books rules.

Yeah, they did. Rangers, paladins, illusionists and Druids were added... Alignments went from just Lawful, Neutral and Chaotic to adding Good and Evil to the mix. It was the Golden Age of D&D.

Actually, I think 3.0 was the best version made and that came out well after I stopped playing regularly. Cleaned up a lot of unnecessary number crunching and conflicting rules, and made the characters more three dimensional. 4.0 is dumbed down in the extreme, and feel more like a late 90s computer game than D&D.

Haven't you guys ever heard of Pathfinder?!?!

When Hasbro made the travisty that is 4th Edition D&D, a company called Paizo bought the rights to the 3.5 ruleset, and ran with it in the *correct* direction, making a game called Pathfinder.  After, what 5 years now (how long has it been???), Pathfinder is the #1 selling RPG, and D&D is 2nd banana (because, in reality, Pathfinder stayed true to D&D, and D&D became more Yu-gi-oh)

Go to paizo.com and check out Pathfinder.  It's exactly what you old-school gamers are looking for.  Paizo knows how to write stuff, they're a company of gamers.

They also have "Society Play" which is differnet, but also cool.  the Society games at GenCon are incredible.  Last year's GenCon (my third trip) was so much fun.

Hey eh!--meaning no disrespect, but screw you   ;D  my gaming table has over 30 degrees of black belt between the 5 of us, so come on over and try to smack us around.  The game's awesome.  Trying to explain it is like trying to explain Firefly ("it's an outer-space western!").  You can't understand how cool it is unless you experience it, and it may take a try or three before you "get it."
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: screwtape on May 16, 2014, 10:53:22 AM
For fuk that's not even a game, its like theatre sports.

Kind of.

this whole concept sux.

No, you're wrong.  It is awesome.
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 16, 2014, 12:46:46 PM
Actually, I think 3.0 was the best version made and that came out well after I stopped playing regularly. Cleaned up a lot of unnecessary number crunching and conflicting rules, and made the characters more three dimensional. 4.0 is dumbed down in the extreme, and feel more like a late 90s computer game than D&D.

Oh, I absolutely agree about 3.0. As someone who always played a Fighter, the addition of feats was a godsend for a class that, imo, was severely limited in it's options.

What I meant was that AD&D seemed at the time to strike the perfect balance of playability without having to resort to purchasing dozens of "accessory" rule books (as with 3.0 and onward) in order to get the most out of the experience. All you really needed for AD&D was the Player's Handbook, the DMs Guide and the Monster Manual.

Right now, I must own at least fifteen 3.0 and 3.5 non-core rule books. Ah, the days of disposable income.... &)
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 16, 2014, 12:50:46 PM

Haven't you guys ever heard of Pathfinder?!?!

No, but I am so definitely going to check it out now!

Thanks for this, Boots! :D
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Boots on May 16, 2014, 12:58:05 PM

Haven't you guys ever heard of Pathfinder?!?!

No, but I am so definitely going to check it out now!

Thanks for this, Boots! :D

velkam.  :-)  it's funny you mention the options thing, because Pathfinder took the 3.0/3.5 ideas of options, and combined it with a 2nd edition concept of "kits" to create "archetypes" for all the classes.  You can play a straight-up fighter, for example, or choose a variety of archetypes (2-weapon fighter, pole-arm master, archer, etc)  they did a REALLY good job of balancing things, and of making sure that every (or almost every) level you gain has SOMEthing cool to offer.

Between archetypes, feat selection, traits (sort of "half-powered feats" everyone gets 2 to start play with), and race options, it's pretty damned sweet.
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 16, 2014, 01:04:39 PM
velkam.  :-)  it's funny you mention the options thing, because Pathfinder took the 3.0/3.5 ideas of options, and combined it with a 2nd edition concept of "kits" to create "archetypes" for all the classes.  You can play a straight-up fighter, for example, or choose a variety of archetypes (2-weapon fighter, pole-arm master, archer, etc)  they did a REALLY good job of balancing things, and of making sure that every (or almost every) level you gain has SOMEthing cool to offer.

Between archetypes, feat selection, traits (sort of "half-powered feats" everyone gets 2 to start play with), and race options, it's pretty damned sweet.

You had me at "it's funny you mention the options thing". ;D

It looks like I'm just going to have to put off paying the utility bills this month... momma's got some shoppin' to do!
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: screwtape on May 16, 2014, 02:50:22 PM
Oh, I absolutely agree about 3.0. As someone who always played a Fighter, the addition of feats was a godsend for a class that, imo, was severely limited in it's options.

I'm torn.  On the one hand, it does offer differentiation for fighters with different styles.  But it also begs for a power gaming style, which I don't care for.

I will tell you what I miss from <3.0 editions is weapon speed.  I used to factor that in to initiative on the basis that the light, fast weapons might be able to get two shots in before the big slow ones.  So the lowest scores went first.  And as you went, you'd add 10 to your initiative.  If that was lower than any remaining scores, you would get to go again in numercal order.  So the guy with the dagger might be able to attack the guy with the two handed sword twice.  But not always.

What I meant was that AD&D seemed at the time to strike the perfect balance of playability without having to resort to purchasing dozens of "accessory" rule books

I banned all but the core books in my game.  I was kind of a tyrant.

 
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: jdawg70 on May 16, 2014, 02:54:48 PM
(http://thenonsensecafe.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/nerds-ogre1.jpg)
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Boots on May 16, 2014, 03:21:50 PM
Oh, I absolutely agree about 3.0. As someone who always played a Fighter, the addition of feats was a godsend for a class that, imo, was severely limited in it's options.

I'm torn.  On the one hand, it does offer differentiation for fighters with different styles.  But it also begs for a power gaming style, which I don't care for.

I think you're always going to get that, to some extent.  however, you can build your character based on the concept FIRST, then make it work mechanically.   For example, I wanted to make a fighter who grew up as a street tough, so the weapon he was most familar with is the ubiquitous dagger.  I figured an agile 2-weapon fighter would fit that bill.  And now, at 7th level, I've got a very mechanically viable front-line fighter, who can do a lot of damage using only daggers.  You pay for that, though, because fighters typically aren't good at anything outside the battlefield.


Quote
I will tell you what I miss from <3.0 editions is weapon speed.  I used to factor that in to initiative on the basis that the light, fast weapons might be able to get two shots in before the big slow ones.  So the lowest scores went first.  And as you went, you'd add 10 to your initiative.  If that was lower than any remaining scores, you would get to go again in numercal order.  So the guy with the dagger might be able to attack the guy with the two handed sword twice.  But not always.

I'm of 2 minds about that.  I do find that has a nostalgic charm to it--but it was also an unnecessary bit of complexity.  Whenever you add realism, you necessarily give up simplicity; conversely, in order to gain simplicity you must add abstraction (the hit point system is a perfect example).
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Hatter23 on May 16, 2014, 09:30:01 PM


I will tell you what I miss from <3.0 editions is weapon speed.  I used to factor that in to initiative on the basis that the light, fast weapons might be able to get two shots in before the big slow ones.  So the lowest scores went first.  And as you went, you'd add 10 to your initiative.  If that was lower than any remaining scores, you would get to go again in numercal order.  So the guy with the dagger might be able to attack the guy with the two handed sword twice.  But not always.

 

I hated weapons speed factors. I thought it so unneeded. Because a two handed sword had enough reach to balance it versus the dagger...and it slowed down already too long combat rounds.
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 16, 2014, 11:23:53 PM
I'm torn.  On the one hand, it does offer differentiation for fighters with different styles.  But it also begs for a power gaming style, which I don't care for.

I loved it because I was finally able to play a nimble two-weapon Fighter who specialized in movement-based tactics and defensive fighting. Power gaming never even crossed my mind, although we had one player who was a one dimensional two-handed sword wielding tank who only took feats that increased his damage output.

Quote
I will tell you what I miss from <3.0 editions is weapon speed.
Wow, I completely forgot about that. I kinda liked it. It awarded those characters who wanted to try something different than the great sword/battle axe a reason to use lighter weapons.

Quote
I banned all but the core books in my game.  I was kind of a tyrant.

I was the idiot who bought them all. :-[

Boots: I ordered the Pathfinder core rule book at my comic book shop. I should have it by Thursday. :)
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Hatter23 on May 17, 2014, 09:04:25 PM
(http://www.pinterest.com/torivixen/gamer-girl/)
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 17, 2014, 09:33:42 PM
http://youtu.be/haOys7E2Zbo (http://youtu.be/haOys7E2Zbo)
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Boots on May 19, 2014, 02:07:12 PM
Boots: I ordered the Pathfinder core rule book at my comic book shop. I should have it by Thursday. :)

SQUEEEEE!!

If you dig it, I recommend the following core books:
Advanced Player's Guide
Ultimate Magic
Ultimate Campaign
Ultimate Equipment

Paizo published quite a few hard-cover books, but stopped eventually.  They are seeking to make their money off of adventures, and goodies you buy for adventures (reusable maps, for example) and other stuff.
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: screwtape on May 20, 2014, 10:30:02 AM
I think you're always going to get that, to some extent.   

Probably.  But I think it ends up being about the mechanics, which is more akin to a video game, which I don't want.  I think the key as DM is to make the obstacles less straight forward.  Not to foil their builds just for the sake of it.  But to make the obstacles challenging and interesting.  Fights don't always occur on level ground.  Put them in hip deep water and muck.  Have mobs of archers.  Put them on a narrow path on the side of a cliff, where falling off is a real possibility.


I'm of 2 minds about that.  I do find that has a nostalgic charm to it--but it was also an unnecessary bit of complexity.

It is not about nostalgia.  It is about making sense. Good fantasy and sci-fi are less about the technology and magic and more about seeing how people respond to them.  Every good movie/ story has to have realistic elements in order for you to maintain your suspension of disbelief.

So from that perspective, I don't think it is unnecessary.  Nor was it all that complex. We'd tally initiative scores, start with the lowest and count up.  I would note whether there was a difference of 10, and if so, anyone inside that range got an extra attack. 

Complexity only matters if it slows the game.  If that complexity is transparent to the players, I have no problem with it.  If it makes actual play a grinding chore, then it must go.

  Whenever you add realism, you necessarily give up simplicity; conversely, in order to gain simplicity you must add abstraction (the hit point system is a perfect example).

You use two phrases - complexity and abstraction - in a way I don't think you meant to.  Complexity was addressed above.  Abstraction has come to mean something akin to "vague".  But it is the theoretical core idea(s) of a thing. 

So, if we take that meaning, nothing about d&d is not an abstraction.  Making it more realistic does not actually reduce the abstraction of it.  If we understand what the point of our game is, then we can go from there and decide whether more realism is desireable and if so, we have to do it in a way that does not slow down the game. 

I have never liked to vagueness of the D&D hit point system. For one, you are as fresh and able on your last, single hit point as you were at full, even though the difference might be several score. 

Second, I found them to be grotesquely out of whack with regards to monsters and even mundane animals.  How many hit points do you think a cow should have?  Would a cow be killed more or less easily than, say, Mike Tyson?  Do you think  that a hero with a sword in full plate mail would last 30 seconds against a grizzly bear?  I do not. The closest I came to finding a resolution was The Grim and Gritty combat system.[1] I never tried it, though.



Because a two handed sword had enough reach to balance it versus the dagger

I do not believe so.  Not in terms of how many times you can attempt to use it in a given period of time.  The balancing difference between them is the damage output. 

I had different rules for reach.  For weapons that were substantially longer - spears and pole arms - they automatically got initiative over shorter weapons when the two parties were approaching each other.  If they hit, the target was prevented from advancing further.  So if you had a spear and your opponent did not, you could keep your opponent at bay indefinitely.  It was my own proto-version of 3e's attack of opportunity.

 1. http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Grim-N-Gritty_(3.5e_Sourcebook) (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Grim-N-Gritty_(3.5e_Sourcebook))
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Mrjason on May 20, 2014, 10:44:47 AM
I think the key as DM is to make the obstacles less straight forward.  Not to foil their builds just for the sake of it.  But to make the obstacles challenging and interesting.  Fights don't always occur on level ground.  Put them in hip deep water and muck.  Have mobs of archers.  Put them on a narrow path on the side of a cliff, where falling off is a real possibility.


I used to play AD&D, our DM was a pedantic asshole who made things as tough as possible (and mixed in the holy grail as much as possible)
I remember using the holy hand grenade

Me: "I pull the pin out of the grenade and throw it"
DM: rolls D10's "Yup you hit him square in the face."
Me: "Excellent what does it do?"
DM: rolls D10's "the pin bounces harmlessly off his forehead"
DM: "3,2,1. The grenade explodes in your hand"...
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: screwtape on May 20, 2014, 10:56:29 AM
I used to play AD&D, our DM was a pedantic asshole who made things as tough as possible (and mixed in the holy grail as much as possible)

Bad DM. 

I had to ban all Monty Python references.  Otherwise that would be all we'd do.
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: One Above All on May 20, 2014, 10:57:57 AM
I used to play AD&D, our DM was a pedantic asshole who made things as tough as possible (and mixed in the holy grail as much as possible)
<snip>

3, 2, 1. You (DM) get punched in the face.
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 20, 2014, 11:08:04 AM
SQUEEEEE!!

Do you get a commission or something off of every Paizo purchase?? :o
 ;D

Quote
If you dig it, I recommend the following core books:
Advanced Player's Guide
Ultimate Magic
Ultimate Campaign
Ultimate Equipment
If I do end up wanting to get them, I'm going to have to try and find used versions. The prices on their site are a tad on the expensive side.
Title: Re: d&d
Post by: screwtape on June 18, 2014, 01:39:22 PM
a good explanation of d&d

http://tao-dnd.blogspot.com/2014/06/explaining-d.html