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Main Discussion Zone => Formal Debates => Topic started by: screwtape on May 07, 2014, 01:12:57 PM

Title: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: screwtape on May 07, 2014, 01:12:57 PM
This debate is between Lukvance and Defiance.  The topic is the existence of god, heaven and hell.  Only these two participants are permitted to post in this thread.  Non-participants may post in the commentary thread (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26771.0.html). 

Any posts by non-participants in this thread will be deleted.

I suggest Lukvance and Defiance agree on a format and ending conditions prior to beginning their debate.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 07, 2014, 01:37:37 PM
Whoa! Ending conditions? Are there some for the kind of subject that we can't physically experience? I'm not sure.
About the format.. I'd love to have a question on each post (even if it's always the same) and that we don't leave any questions unanswered.
Do you have something to add Defiance? :)
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 07, 2014, 02:56:32 PM
Try not to use vague analogies, please.
Please refrain from using logical fallacies, to save time (look for a list on wiki).

The debate ends if one of us is unable or refuses to effectively answer a question ("I don't know" is honestly acceptable).

Agreed?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: screwtape on May 07, 2014, 03:20:03 PM
Whoa! Ending conditions?

That is, how do you end this debate/ discussion?  I do not believe either of you is at any point going to say "whoa, you sure kicked my ass there.  Congratulations, man, you won the debate."  So, there should be a way for this to end, and you should both agree on it up front.  You could each have 10 posts.  You could each make an opening statement, one rebuttal to the other's opening statement and one rebuttal after that.  Those are just examples.  It is whatever you want. 
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 07, 2014, 03:38:14 PM
Ok, how about this:

We each have 15 posts in total. No more posts after that. This will encourage both of us to get to the point and make each reply satisfactory. After that, I guess the commentary tread can decide who won. How about it?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 07, 2014, 04:00:06 PM
100 post! :) (or 77 to make it "perfect")
I think that even after 15 posts you will still have some questions left. Since it's my first time, I don't know how many post it will take. I know that since I started not so long ago, I posted already close to 300 times. All of them defending my faith :)
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 07, 2014, 05:15:49 PM
All right. Might as well make it limitless.

But then how will we determine the winner?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 07, 2014, 05:53:10 PM
I don't think these type of discussion have one Winner.
We will both be winners since I at least have spent time doing something that I like and you will have answers to your questions.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 07, 2014, 09:49:19 PM
Alright, present your defense (or offense) and clesrly state which side you support.
Please look at suggestions provided in the commentary thread.
Also, answer these with yes or no.

Is heaven and hell a place and not just a state of mind or something?
Is your god all powerful, all knowing, and all good?
Define exist with non-idiotic terms. Meaning no "you named it and its real" kid of thing.
Try and refrain from using "I believe". We are having a potentially formal and educational debate; try and keep things objective.

Any requests of me?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 08, 2014, 12:44:47 PM
I believe that God, Heaven and Hell exist.
For me, something exist as soon as it has a name and a definition.
For me, there are different degrees of reality. The degree being define by my happiness now and later.
There are other factor than my own processing of reality that I have to consider to make something real. (like testimony of others)

Is heaven and hell a place and not just a state of mind or something?
Something. I never been "there". No one ever "came back" from there. It is not a physical place as we understand it today.
Quote
Is your god all powerful, all knowing, and all good?
Yes
Quote
Define exist with non-idiotic terms. Meaning no "you named it and its real" kid of thing.
I'm sorry, what I wrote earlier is how I define "exist". I don't see how this is idiotic. Maybe if you gave your definition we could understand why you believe it to be? Or does your definition use idiotic terms too?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 08, 2014, 03:00:26 PM
Our definitions of exist are different.

Let's work that first.

I have said many times : If I name something, for example "Spaghetti pants that walk around everywhere", does it exist?

I define Spaghetti pants as pants made out of spaghetti, with the ability to walk.

I defined it, and named it, how does it possibly exist now?

For me (and dictionaries, various) existance occurs in time and space.  If something exists,  it participates and is located in time and space. Now God exists, but only as a concept in your mind, since concepts are physically caused by the brain functions, not something that made everything.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 08, 2014, 03:36:57 PM
Aren't your spaghetti pants a concept in your mind (and mine)?
Since you said "Now God exists, but only as a concept in your mind" So "spaghetti pants" exist.
"If something exists,  it participates and is located in time and space." Is that your definition of exist? Based on that definition, can we say that pain exist?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 08, 2014, 05:55:37 PM
Thank god! You get my point!

That is existence, just like god.

The pants exist only in mind, and god also exists only in mind.

And because they exist only in mind, they are not existent in real life (outside of our brain)  and do not interact with the world unless we use that thought to do something ourselves.

Yes, pain is a physical and chemical process occurring in our brain.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 08, 2014, 07:05:12 PM
So, we agree, God exist. That should close the debate on the existence of God. Is there something else you want to ask me?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 08, 2014, 07:24:32 PM
Lol.
God does not exist outside of your imagination.
Alright case close.
We agreed right?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 08, 2014, 07:31:31 PM
Yep because, for you, nothing else exist outside of your imagination. You proved it when you said that pain was imaginary.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 08, 2014, 08:22:15 PM
What part of "Yes, pain is a physical and chemical process occurring in our brain." do you not understand?

It is CAUSED by external stimuli.

Can you hold pain? No. Can you smell it? You feel it. It is a PERCEPTION created by your body to let you know that something is attacking you, and you need to run away.

Imaginary - COMPLETELY and fully created by your brain that has no connection whatsoever to the outside world.

Pain - CAUSED by outside world.

Pain is NOT imaginary. It is a label we put on a reaction we get to a stimulus.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Part 2 (tell me if I still need to clarify the above points).

If something can only exist in Space time* , how can it possibly exist anywhere else?

Space is everywhere, and it is constantly expanding. **

You have claimed countless times in your other posts that Heaven and Hell, plus God, are all existing outside of Space.

Explain, please.

*Refer to your two threads in which you replied to various other members.

**http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerating_universe (Notice how the first sentence says "Observation")



Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 08, 2014, 08:33:20 PM
Quote
What part of "Yes, pain is a physical and chemical process occurring in our brain." do you not understand?
Oh I understand and I agree. It is you who said that God was imaginary. Since God and pain exist at the same level I deduced that pain (for you) was imaginary.

If pain exist outside of your imagination then God exist outside of your imagination. (for the same reasons)

Then, saying
God does not exist outside of your imagination.
is false.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 08, 2014, 08:36:00 PM
Quote
If something can only exist in Space time* , how can it possibly exist anywhere else?
I don't know, we disagree on the fact that something can only exist in space time.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 08, 2014, 08:44:09 PM
Quote
If something can only exist in Space time* , how can it possibly exist anywhere else?
I don't know, we disagree on the fact that something can only exist in space time.
I'll get back to the other question later on.

But how's this:

Tell me then, an example, plus sources, of something existing outside of Time and Space. God has not been proven to exist, and therefore him or any supernatural occurrences that are unproven cannot be used to support this.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 08, 2014, 09:28:35 PM
Quote
If something can only exist in Space time* , how can it possibly exist anywhere else?
I don't know, we disagree on the fact that something can only exist in space time.
I'll get back to the other question later on.

But how's this:

Tell me then, an example, plus sources, of something existing outside of Time and Space. God has not been proven to exist, and therefore him or any supernatural occurrences that are unproven cannot be used to support this.
On the top or my head. The big bang. Or right "before"
The center of a black hole too.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 08, 2014, 09:55:51 PM
Never make the mistake of saying "before the Big Bang".

There is no before. No one is sure of the "before" and I admit to not knowing. Because of that, I will refrain from making positive claims about the Big Bang. You should too.

Other than that.

Space itself was created in the Big Bang, as explained by various respected theories (google). Does not answer the question. If there is no such thing as outside of Space, then where is something outside of space? We're back at square one.

Inside of black holes are excluded from space? If they were, we would be seeing missing mass that has "left" the black hole. We do not observe that. Even though it is uncertain what truly happens at the point of a singularity, there is no reason to say centres of black holes somehow suddenly exist somewhere else. It is unproven.

Tell me, without using the Internet, how much do you understand physics? I want to know so I can try and explain the essentials before trying to correct your mistakes.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 08, 2014, 10:02:16 PM
I'm good. Before big bang and black holes were examples related to time.(they exist outside of time) For space we can look at the 9 other dimensions of the cord theory. They exist outside of space.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 08, 2014, 10:03:32 PM
And luk, I know I might seem repetitive with the "nothing exists outside of space", but that is because I'm trying to explain to you that existence OCCURS in the SpaceTime. It does not occur in any other weird dimension, because the very property of existence is only to be had in Space.

Just like how length and width require two dimensions of space, Existance requires the four dimensions.

Wait, "which" theory?

And no, Black holes exist in time. They are made, and evaporate through Hawkings Radiation. (Wikipedia).

Again, you have no evidence of this "before" concept. Therefore it is meaning less as of right now.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 08, 2014, 10:09:05 PM
Does this forum exist? If so, is his existence related to space? And time? Which one? Why that one more than the other?
If it does not exist, how can we be using something inexistent?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 08, 2014, 10:11:42 PM
Yes this forum exists on the Internet.

The Internet is made of electron signals traveling everywhere through wifi, and cable. The arrangement of the electrons determine the words that show up on the screen. Therefore, this forum definitely exists in space, and it definitely occurs over time.

Seriously? Try harder.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 08, 2014, 10:15:15 PM
The [wiki]string theory[/wiki] sorry.
So the "where" of this forum is everywhere?
And the "when"?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 08, 2014, 10:21:55 PM
The Internet is stored on date bases all around the world. Wikipedia has great information on how Internet works.

Where's all of it? No one place has all of it, it was designed to be like this so if one database was bombed or destroyed, the rest could still function with each other. Therefore, it's parts can be in various places. Just like if I broke a toy car, and scattered the pieces all over my house.

Why about time? What ABOUT it? I just said that the electronic signals occur over time; electrons travel through wires and all, and that takes time.

Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 08, 2014, 10:26:15 PM
As for your string theory thing:
This one part jumped out at me.

"String theory requires the existence of extra spatial dimensions"

This is in the wiki article. Read it.

Spatial dimensions. Dimensions of SPACE.
Those extra dimensions you speak of, are Space dimensions. Therefore, they are included in space.

Meaning the God cannot be there either, since he is outside of all space and time.

Where else could he be now?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 08, 2014, 10:30:04 PM
OK then. Space as dimensions. I can work with that.
Heaven, Hell and God are all in space and time. So they exist.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 08, 2014, 10:45:54 PM
I really like this video about our dimensions. (And the string theory) It will help you understand how I see God as the "highest" being. http://youtu.be/p4Gotl9vRGs
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 09, 2014, 12:35:39 AM
Are all in space?

You said that they were out of time and space in a previous post.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 09, 2014, 12:40:12 AM
Yes. We didn't have the same definition of space then. If we allow all those 11 dimensions then God is in space and time. Since the meaning of time change as you go up a dimension. (like you can see in the video).
Plus, when I said that, if you asked me I would have answered that this forum is out of time and space too. But since then I evolved with your answers to my questions.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 09, 2014, 12:50:46 AM
Yes. We didn't have the same definition of space then. If we allow all those 11 dimensions then God is in space and time. Since the meaning of time change as you go up a dimension. (like you can see in the video).
Plus, when I said that, if you asked me I would have answered that this forum is out of time and space too. But since then I evolved with your answers to my questions.

So what about the bible, when it mentions that God is beyond Time and Space? Tell me if you need a quote.

We both agree on one thing, time and space itself was created in the Big Bang, meaning therefore that God himself had to be created in the Big Bang, since he *exists* only in space and time.

That is conflicting. God was never "created", yet as you have acknowledged, he also could not have "been" any other way.

How can this Almighty God be so restrained by Time and Space?

(By the way, I'm glad you admitted this. I have many more reasons to put down but for now I shall rest for tomorrow :D )

*exists*- for argument's sake, I said he exists to provide a deeper answer. I however did NOT factually claim he exists. So no more of those "aha!" replies.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 09, 2014, 01:05:47 AM
Restrained? How can Time and Space restrain God? If it restrained him, wouldn't it mean that there is something outside time and space?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 09, 2014, 05:44:11 AM
It restrains him because he cannot exist outside of it.

This all powerful god is nothing without space time. Literally.

Then there is the other problem. Since you accredit god with the creation of space time, how could he make himself?

Since he exists only in space time, he started existing only when he made space time? Non sequitur.

It restrains him because a god is supposed to be able to do anything, yet he cannot *exist* without the passage of time and the space of...space.

Once again, do not mistake my use of "exist" as proof that I gave in. No, I do it for the sake of argument.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 09, 2014, 10:19:24 AM
Yes God can exist outside of time and space...for people like me who thinks that things exist outside of time and space. For people like you, there is nothing outside of time and space. So God can be everything even if he is in time and space. By definition there is nothing more than everything.
You have to be careful on how you use time and space.
God wasn't made, if he was, it would be by "something" greater than him and nothing is greater than God. By definition God has all the qualities imaginable.
Think of something, add it a quality then add it another quality... Etc when you don't have any quality left to add, you'll get God.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 09, 2014, 11:16:39 AM
Yes God can exist outside of time and space...for people like me who thinks that things exist outside of time and space. For people like you, there is nothing outside of time and space. So God can be everything even if he is in time and space. By definition there is nothing more than everything.
You have to be careful on how you use time and space.
God wasn't made, if he was, it would be by "something" greater than him and nothing is greater than God. By definition God has all the qualities imaginable.
Think of something, add it a quality then add it another quality... Etc when you don't have any quality left to add, you'll get God.

You said before that god exists outside of time and space. Then we argued and you admitted god must exist in time and space. Now you say he exists out side of time and space.

Please pick one. If you pick outside, then you are rejecting all the agreement we made above, and pin right back into "it's real for me" which is meaningless.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 09, 2014, 11:31:52 AM
Yes God can exist outside of time and space...for people like me who thinks that things exist outside of time and space. For people like you, there is nothing outside of time and space. So God can be everything even if he is in time and space. By definition there is nothing more than everything.
You have to be careful on how you use time and space.
God wasn't made, if he was, it would be by "something" greater than him and nothing is greater than God. By definition God has all the qualities imaginable.
Think of something, add it a quality then add it another quality... Etc when you don't have any quality left to add, you'll get God.

You said before that god exists outside of time and space. Then we argued and you admitted god must exist in time and space. Now you say he exists out side of time and space.

Please pick one. If you pick outside, then you are rejecting all the agreement we made above, and pin right back into "it's real for me" which is meaningless.

And one more thing. Keep adding qualities til you can't anymore?

Ok:
Evil
Murderous
Unjust
Stupid
Retarded
Idiotic
Homosexual
Feminine
Stinky
Nasty
Etc.

Is that your god? Since you said keep adding qualities? Those are descriptions of his qualities. Is that your god?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 09, 2014, 12:26:07 PM
And one more thing. Keep adding qualities til you can't anymore?
Ok:
Evil
Murderous
Unjust
Stupid
Retarded
Idiotic
Homosexual
Feminine
Stinky
Nasty
Etc.
Is that your god? Since you said keep adding qualities? Those are descriptions of his qualities. Is that your god?
Yes, if you think of those as qualities. For me they are more flaws than qualities.

About the presence of God in time and space. I don't have to pick one. Your definition of existence and mine are different.
According to your definition, God is not outside of time and space (because there is no "outside" of time and space)
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 09, 2014, 06:26:34 PM
God exists as a concept in your head. However, before you were alive, that concept was not there in your head. And therefore, you created the concept of God yourself.
Isn't that the same thing with love? Before you were alive, the concept of love was not there in your head. If I follow your logic, you created the concept of love yourself?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 09, 2014, 06:32:18 PM
You can't just redefine words to fit as you wish.

I have explained how "Exist" works only in Space and Time. You simply said, in simple terms, "Ok, you explained it logically, but God exists anyways."

Let me break it down further for you.

Exist: Having location and time. "Being" in Space and Time.

    Physical (Real World): Cars, air, trees, etc.

    Chemical: Thoughts, emotions, God, concepts that solely take place in mind.

Both above Exist, but in different situations.

Physical is self explanatory, and Chemical is also existent but slightly differently.

Chemical cannot affect anything, unless the host acts, and are perceptions that are generated by our minds. Basic Psychology.

Therefore, your God is non existent in real life, but he exists as an idea, just like Zeus, Ra, or Vishnu. Meaning he did not create the world. You are the one who "created" him in your mind. Because the chemical processes in your brain allow you to think, God existed as a concept, not as a being that controls all of the universe.

My apologies for not clarifying earlier.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, do you understand why, if he existed in space and time, he is not eternal?

Space time have not always been around, as seen by the Big Bang theory. And you have acknowledged that God can exists only in Space and Time, above.

Therefore, if you strip him of his "eternal" status (Which the scientifically supported theory DOES), he is no longer god.

I have no clue how you will deny this, but I'm curious.

"Isn't that the same thing with love? Before you were alive, the concept of love was not there in your head. If I follow your logic, you created the concept of love yourself?"

Well, ofcourse. It's basic psychology and biology. I labeled a chemical process in my head as "love".
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 09, 2014, 06:34:51 PM
Please read my previous post, edits were made.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 09, 2014, 06:53:57 PM
Interesting. Since you created the concept of love, can I assume that you parents did not love you? (since the concept was not created yet)
"Chemical cannot affect anything, unless the host acts, and are perceptions that are generated by our minds. Basic Psychology."
Acts, cannot affect anything (they don't exist) unless the chemicals in your brain commands you. Right?
Space time have not always been around
Eh? who's being illogical here? Are you saying that there was a time when space time wasn't there?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 09, 2014, 07:07:17 PM
Interesting. Since you created the concept of love, can I assume that you parents did not love you? (since the concept was not created yet)
"Chemical cannot affect anything, unless the host acts, and are perceptions that are generated by our minds. Basic Psychology."
Acts, cannot affect anything (they don't exist) unless the chemicals in your brain commands you. Right?
Space time have not always been around
Eh? who's being illogical here? Are you saying that there was a time when space time wasn't there?
My parents loved (Verb, action, occurs in space, and over time) me. My parents annoyed (same) me.

My brain labeled the concept in my own head as love. The concept was not existent in my head until I had a head. Your point? My brain labeled annoyance as annoyance.

And are you saying space time have always been around? No, seeing as you do acknowledge the validity of the Big Bang.

Once again, I cannot answer your second question, seeing as that is closely associated with the "before" of the Big Bang, and I want to avoid unsubstantiated claims of that realm. Hope you can understand.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 09, 2014, 08:34:17 PM
Since you can't answer the question, you cannot affirm that "space time have not always been around". Agreed?
How can Time and Space restrain God? It can't since we agreed there was nothing else.
So love was there before you? You did not invent it (or create it) So you made a second mistake by claiming you did. ("Well, ofcourse.") Agreed?
Acts, cannot affect anything (they don't exist) unless the chemicals in your brain commands you. You agree?
Is there a counter argument that I forgot to nullify?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 09, 2014, 09:46:38 PM
Can you affirm that space time was always around? Go ahead, prove the Big Bang theory wrong and collect your nobel prize. The big bang does however, point to the creation of everything, and that everything includes space time.

Where did I say I made love? My brain created its own perception of an act and labeled it as love. What's the problem here? Did I expressely state there was no love before I made it?

They restrain God because He cannot exist outside of it as you and your fellow believer claim!

Why are you not understanding that?!

An action is inexistent?  How so? Does it not occur in space time? Does it occur elsewhere?

Just clarify this one last time; Do you claim tha God exists outside of Time and Space?
Do you claim God created time and space?
What is the difference between your Exist and my Exist?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 09, 2014, 10:09:11 PM
This conversation is coming back full circle. Neither of us has made any great leaps.

Do you want to stay on the topic of god's existence, or move onto to heaven and hell?

It's up to you, since you seem unable to grasp that your definition of god contradicts with your agreement with the fact that existence only occurs in Space time, from which your god is supposed to be exempt from.

God does not exist in space time, but rather outside of it.

The above statement makes no sense. I am at a lose of words as to how else I can say this. If you claim it, you are logically incorrect. That has been my whole point from the start. Not that it'll change anything now.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 09, 2014, 11:25:50 PM
Can you affirm that space time was always around? Go ahead, prove the Big Bang theory wrong and collect your nobel prize. The big bang does however, point to the creation of everything, and that everything includes space time.
Yes Space Time was always around. The big bang theory prove that. If I proved the big bang theory wrong it would mean that space time was NOT always around.
I don't understand why would I want to prove it wrong? YOU are the one saying there was a "before" big bang, not me!
You said :
Space time have not always been around, as seen by the Big Bang theory. And you have acknowledged that God can exists only in Space and Time, above.
I said :
Are you saying that there was a time when space time wasn't there?
You answered :
I cannot answer your second question, seeing as that is closely associated with the "before" of the Big Bang, and I want to avoid unsubstantiated claims of that realm.
Which I translated by "I don't know what I'm saying"

-----

I asked :

If I follow your logic, you created the concept of love yourself?
You answered :
Well, ofcourse. It's basic psychology and biology. I labeled a chemical process in my head as "love".
Which mean you created the concept of love.
So I asked:
Since you created the concept of love, can I assume that you parents did not love you? (since the concept was not created yet)
And you answered :
My parents loved (Verb, action, occurs in space, and over time) me. My parents annoyed (same) me.
Which mean you did NOT created the concept of love (because your parents had it before you did)

Imagine my surprise when I read :
Where did I say I made love?

When you say :
They restrain God because He cannot exist outside of it as you and your fellow believer claim!
I remember telling you :
For people like you, there is nothing outside of time and space. So God can be everything even if he is in time and space. By definition there is nothing more than everything.
And :
According to your definition, God is not outside of time and space (because there is no "outside" of time and space)
Which means that I agree with you. God is everything.
So, again, how is that restraining?

An action is inexistent?
How so?
Does it not occur in space time?
Does it occur elsewhere?

Yes.
When you don't have a brain.
No, it's inexistent.
No. There is nothing else than Space an Time.

Just clarify this one last time; Do you claim that God exists outside of Time and Space?
NO, not according to your definition of time and space. (which are all the dimensions)

Quote
Do you claim God created time and space?
I'm assuming that you believe that time and space have been created. So yes, he created everything.  Who else could have created time and space?
If you think that time and space have not been created (then does not exist?) then, no. 
Quote
What is the difference between your Exist and my Exist?
My exist let room for something outside time and space. Yours don't.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 10, 2014, 05:32:56 PM
"Yes Space Time was always around. The big bang theory prove that."

No it does not. You have it all wrong. The Big Bang points towards an event that created/made Space and Time. That's why it's called a Big Bang...a bang happened, and stuff came from it. (Simple terms).

I am the one saying we should not try and claim the what happened "Before" the big bang, because it is where physics break down, and a singularity exists. You are seriously putting words in my mouth. I would appreciate if you stopped.

"Which I translated by 'I don't know what I'm saying'"

Really? Really? So because I am trying to be mature and point out that yes, this is something I don't know, and neither do you, I don't know what I'm saying? Nice logic.

Do you know what 'unsubtantiated' means? If I start making those kinds of claims about the "before", I would be no better than the people who say "Godidit".

"Which mean you created the concept of love..."

My body labeled a perception of a chemical process in my head as "love".
Where did I expressly say Love was not around before I perceived it in my own head? No where.

"Which mean you did NOT created the concept of love (because your parents had it before you did)"

Labeled =/= Created. There you go again, redefining words.

I created the concept of love in myself, in my brain, after I was born (if you really want to use the word "created"). Now stop talking about love and get to the point.

"God is everything"? Evidence, please.

I have given you far too much ground by saying "For the sake of the argument..."

Evidence. Please. :)

"So, again, how is that restraining?"

I'll say it for about the 5th time. You have claimed in the past that your God exists outside of Time and Space.

Then you agreed with me that "God is not outside of time and space".

I let this change of thoughts go unquestioned. But you need to consider this:

The Big Bang made Time and Space. It is fundamental in the theory (Which you seriously need to relearn).

Since now you say your God exists outside of Time and Space, it turns into this:

Your God did not exist "Before" the Big Bang. Since there was no Time and Space to accomodate him, he did not exist. If he did not exist, he could not create Time and Space, like you claim he did (Fallaciously).

You also state that your God is eternal.

Something eternal is not created! And since you now state Space Time was once created, and God can only exist in Space time, he had to have been somehow "created" when Space TIme was also created.

Therefore your God, by your own agreement to my "Exist only in Space Time", is not eternal, and if he is not eternal, he is not God. Meaning, he might as well not exist, since he by definition is no longer what you say he is.

Please Read this ^^ ^paragraph^ ^^, it is absolutely essential.

This is what I have been trying to tell you.

"Yes."

You are wrong. It happens in Space and Time; it exists. They have been proven to exist. Want an experiment? Blink your eye. That's an action.

"When you don't have a brain."

If there is the ocean, and the sun in the distance, the sun's radiations acts on the water.
The action is labeled as evaporation. No need for brains anywhere.

"No, it's inexistent."

See above.

"No. There is nothing else than Space and Time."

Yes, and that is why actions occur in Space Time. Because they exist.

"So yes, he created everything."

Sigh.

Space Time was not always around. Big Bang theory supports this. You know, Big Bang, the one you completely misinterpreted?
Since Space TIme was not always around, God, who can exist only in Space Time, was not always around.

Meaning he did not create Space and Time, which is part of "everything", because he could only exist once it had been made in the Big Bang. How could he have existed before having Space and TIme to exist in? Your agreement with me then supports this statement: He did not create Everything, because he did not exist, as Space and time, a part of everything, were not around to allow him to exist and create Everything.

"My exist let room for something outside time and space. Yours don't."

You have already agreed that existance only occurs in Space and Time. There is no "Outside" Space and Time. Therefore, the above statement is trashed. You now can only use "exist" when its definition is what we agreed to; inside of TIme and Space.

Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 05:48:03 PM
I'm sorry. I'm really confused now.
To help me, I will ask you to answer by yes or no.
Is there something that exist outside space time (like the singularity for example)?

Before you answer, let me remind you what is your definition of exist :
For me (and dictionaries, various) existance occurs in time and space.  If something exists,  it participates and is located in time and space.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 10, 2014, 06:14:09 PM
No, nothing exists outside of time and space. Existence is a property that is only to be had in Space and Time.

How do you know if the singularity "existed outside" of it?

But we are back at talking about the "Before". Neither you nor I have substantial evidence to affirm a positive claim. It would be better to just drop it.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 06:22:26 PM
Thank you.
Again, yes or no.
Was Space Time always around?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 10, 2014, 06:35:25 PM
No, otherwise I would be trying to disprove Big Band theory.  I am not.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 06:38:06 PM
Thank you,
Does the fact that Time and Space was not always around means that there is something else than time and space?
Again, yes or no.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 10, 2014, 07:12:36 PM
Thank you,
Does the fact that Time and Space was not always around means that there is something else than time and space?
Again, yes or no.

"There is"
That parallels with exist.

If you are looking for existence in the absence of Space and Time, then No. I will stand by what I said. No.

This "Something else" does not make sense. It falls under the "before" category, and it suggests existence without the only thing that allows existence.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 07:19:32 PM
I think, I get it now. It's the wording "always around" that I don't understand.
For me, for something to not be always around means that there was something else before and there might be something else after.

Could you give me 2 examples of what was "always around" and 2 of what was not "always around"?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 10, 2014, 07:24:25 PM
Nothing was always around.

Because Space and Time were not around*, nothing was "allowed" to be around, aka exist.

Please don't start telling me that "AHA! NOTHING is the thing that was always around." :)

2 of things not always around? 1. The idea/concept I have in my head of a toy car.
                                                  2. Cars, Trees, any matter.

*Whenever I make a statement like this, you can assume I am using the Big Bang theory to support my case, just so I have a little scientific backing.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 07:43:14 PM
I don't understand the link between this :
Since Space TIme was not always around, God, who can exist only in Space Time, was not always around.
And this :
Meaning he did not create Space and Time, which is part of "everything", because he could only exist once it had been made in the Big Bang.
For the sake of argument I can agree with "Since Space TIme was not always around, God, who can exist only in Space Time, was not always around." (just until I find a way to prove it false) And with "nothing is always around"
Now I ask you, if God did not create Space and Time. Who did?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 10, 2014, 08:52:02 PM
You are provoking a fallacy:

Argument from Ignorance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

Why does it have to be a who?

If the world works naturally now, why could it not be created naturally too?

Long story short, this is where religion thrives, "There HAS to be an intelligent creator who made all this".

In reality, none of those religions can prove just what they spew it true. We don't know what made Time and Space, but it is NOT a free pass for you and your people to make up fairy tales of a magical god who supposedly always existed even though that is not possible, because you know, the Time and Space thing we discussed.

This is also known as the God of Gaps argument http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps  (Not a good thing)

Which goes like:
"Guys, we just don't what happened here."
"Yeah, then it must be God, since there is an absence of an explanation."
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 09:00:01 PM
It doesn't have to be a who.
You used as your argument that you knew it wasn't God who created the universe. ("Meaning he did not create Space and Time") So, if you knew it wasn't him then you must know who it was. If not, you cannot say that it wasn't him with certitude and you must find another argument.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 10, 2014, 09:04:17 PM
It doesn't have to be a who.
You used as your argument that you knew it wasn't God who created the universe. ("Meaning he did not create Space and Time") So, if you knew it wasn't him then you must know who it was. If not, you cannot say that it wasn't him with certitude and you must find another argument.

I also Know it's not my Spaghetti Pants.

I say it wasn't God because you haven't proved he exists. And how he could make Time and Space without existing.

<edit>

WOAH WOAH WOAH

Did you just admit God may not be what made the universe?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 09:08:01 PM
Did you just admit God may not be what made the universe?
I believe he did. I am ready to stop believing that if you find evidence of the contrary. I will then believe that God created the "thing" that created the universe.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 10, 2014, 09:14:32 PM
Did you just admit God may not be what made the universe?
I believe he did. I am ready to stop believing that if you find evidence of the contrary. I will then believe that God created the "thing" that created the universe.
Faith in humanity kind of restored. I'm glad you aren't as stubborn as some.

But you might be missing the point. The Universe, which is Space Time, is the only place God can exist, as we have agreed many many times. Because Space Time were not always around (I can say this, now that we cleared it up), God, who cannot exist outside of Space Time, was also not around. So this "thing" that came "Before" (if that's even logically sound with physics) was not made by God, since he didn't exist yet. But then this "thing" could also not have existed since nothing can exist outside of Space Time.

Umm...it gets confusing. But it makes sense nonetheless.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 09:15:43 PM
I say it wasn't God because you haven't proved he exists.
Oh yes we did :
Now God exists
That is existence, just like god
God existed
We are not agreeing on "how" he exist yet but I've proven his existence.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 10, 2014, 09:18:00 PM
You made the mistake.

You made the one mistake I was hoping you weren't dense enough to make.

FOR THE SAKE OF THE ARGUMENT I presupposed that God existed, just so I could show you the illogicallity of your belief. I am an Atheist, and you have provided no evidence of his existence.

If a kid asks you, "Dad, where does Santa live?"
You would at first say, "Honey, Santa isn't real."
Then he might say, "But let's just assume. IF he did exist, where would he live?"
You could say, "Hmm, I would say in a Big Mansion on North Pole."


Now, YOU, Luk, just basically said, "SO DAD YOU ADMIT THAT SANTA IS REAL!"
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 09:28:27 PM

So this "thing" that came "Before" (if that's even logically sound with physics) was not made by God, since he didn't exist yet. But then this "thing" could also not have existed since nothing can exist outside of Space Time.

Umm...it gets confusing. But it makes sense nonetheless.
Nope, doesn't make sense at all :(
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 09:31:28 PM
You made the mistake.

You made the one mistake I was hoping you weren't dense enough to make.

FOR THE SAKE OF THE ARGUMENT I presupposed that God existed, just so I could show you the illogicallity of your belief. I am an Atheist, and you have provided no evidence of his existence.

If a kid asks you, "Dad, where does Santa live?"
You would at first say, "Honey, Santa isn't real."
Then he might say, "But let's just assume. IF he did exist, where would he live?"
You could say, "Hmm, I would say in a Big Mansion on North Pole."


Now, YOU, Luk, just basically said, "SO DAD YOU ADMIT THAT SANTA IS REAL!"
Dude, where did you say "FOR THE SAKE OF THE ARGUMENT I presupposed that God existed" or something similar before admitting that he exist?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 10, 2014, 09:48:48 PM

So this "thing" that came "Before" (if that's even logically sound with physics) was not made by God, since he didn't exist yet. But then this "thing" could also not have existed since nothing can exist outside of Space Time.

Umm...it gets confusing. But it makes sense nonetheless.
Nope, doesn't make sense at all :(
I have explained it enough. If you are unable to grasp it, then I'm sorry, I guess.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 10, 2014, 09:50:15 PM
*exists*- for argument's sake, I said he exists to provide a deeper answer. I however did NOT factually claim he exists. So no more of those "aha!" replies.
This.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 09:59:51 PM
Now God exists
That is existence, just like god
Those 2 where said before yesterday. (not bad, 2 out of the 3 I cited)
But that's ok, if you want to go back on you word.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 10:07:31 PM

So this "thing" that came "Before" (if that's even logically sound with physics) was not made by God, since he didn't exist yet. But then this "thing" could also not have existed since nothing can exist outside of Space Time.

Umm...it gets confusing. But it makes sense nonetheless.
Nope, doesn't make sense at all :(
I have explained it enough. If you are unable to grasp it, then I'm sorry, I guess.
No, not enough. What is this thing? How can it exist? Why don't you want it to be made by God?
You leave room for something else than the big bang then you destroy it right after put God in it and then you say that it is your argument and that I am to dumb to understand it.
What about this:
New assertion : Nothing existed before God that's why he made everything.
Not bad eh?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 11, 2014, 06:33:31 AM
Now God exists
That is existence, just like god
Those 2 where said before yesterday. (not bad, 2 out of the 3 I cited)
But that's ok, if you want to go back on you word.
You are very new around here, aren't you?

I have been reading this website far longer than you have just now decided to make an account.

You have no idea what Atheists do to actially get those few minutes of a sensible conversation with people like you. When I said "Now he exists", I am saying that hypothetically. It seems like you have some sort of problem because you fail to understand the term "For the sake of the argument".
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 11, 2014, 06:37:18 AM

So this "thing" that came "Before" (if that's even logically sound with physics) was not made by God, since he didn't exist yet. But then this "thing" could also not have existed since nothing can exist outside of Space Time.

Umm...it gets confusing. But it makes sense nonetheless.
Nope, doesn't make sense at all :(
I have explained it enough. If you are unable to grasp it, then I'm sorry, I guess.
No, not enough. What is this thing? How can it exist? Why don't you want it to be made by God?
You leave room for something else than the big bang then you destroy it right after put God in it and then you say that it is your argument and that I am to dumb to understand it.
What about this:
New assertion : Nothing existed before God that's why he made everything.
Not bad eh?
What the hell do you not understand that if God existed (Which is yet to be proven), he would be a part of this "everything". And if everything did not exist, he could not either!

You ARE too stupid to understand this (Ad Hom but I don't care) you already accepted without space time god cannot exist, and if there is nothing, he cannot exist, so he cannot be around to make something that would allow him to exist.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 11, 2014, 06:44:17 AM
I see the difference.

You are far too proud and are unwilling to let go of your fairy tales.

I proudly accept that not a single person on this Earth know the "cause" of the Big Bang. You are one of them; you do not know what "made" the Big Bang. Anything counter to that, and you need, and trust me on this, A LOT OF EVIDENCE.

And as we have seen in other threads, your standard for evidence would make the scientific community barf.

I am proud to say "No we do not know yet how it happened, but with advances in technology and understanding of the universe, we can maybe find out some day."

You are saying "Oh? So you don't know what made the Big Bang bang? The explanation is not yet understood but I perfectly understand it: GODIDIT**!"

**http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Godidit!
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 11, 2014, 03:42:17 PM
It seems like you have some sort of problem because you fail to understand the term "For the sake of the argument".
Oh I understand it perfectly. And I respect it. But you cannot blame me to have not assumed it when you did not speak of it.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 11, 2014, 03:49:30 PM
If you are done insulting me and assuming false things about me. We could continue this discussion and, maybe, evolve from it.
I told you in a private message, insults and menaces don't help the discussion at all. People get angry when they feel like they are cornered, like they made a mistake and are too proud to accept it, when they are scared that others will judge them for that. So they scream, they insult, they use menaces to make themselves feel superior and hope that the other one will flee.
I won't flee. I will wait for you to calm down and ask questions or give me a counter argument that will get the conversation going.
I will repeat :
New assertion : Nothing existed before God that's why he made everything.
Any questions?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 11, 2014, 03:53:01 PM
Some examples to back up my previous post :
"You are very new around here
You have no idea what Atheists do to actially get those few minutes of a sensible conversation with people like you
you have some sort of problem
You ARE too stupid to understand this
I don't care
You are far too proud and are unwilling
your standard for evidence would make the scientific community barf.
You are saying..."
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 11, 2014, 04:40:39 PM
Evidence.
You are not getting it still.

God is part of everything, according to you. If nothing existed, he wouldnt exist either.

Therefore, "He made everything when nothing existed" does not make sense. Where am I loosing you? It's like you keep ignoring this part: You agreed God must exist in Space Time, and if wasn't always around, then God, who exists only in space time, cannot make space and time, since he did not exist yet.

Why are you ignoring that?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 11, 2014, 04:43:37 PM
Oh, and please answer my post. You answered all the insults, now please answer the actual content of it.

And all of the above that you ignored, you know which ones.

I will not refute your "Assertion" until you do so.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 11, 2014, 04:54:40 PM
It seems like you have some sort of problem because you fail to understand the term "For the sake of the argument".
Oh I understand it perfectly. And I respect it. But you cannot blame me to have not assumed it when you did not speak of it.
Yes I did, and you ignored the quote I provided as proof?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 11, 2014, 05:16:55 PM
It seems like you have some sort of problem because you fail to understand the term "For the sake of the argument".
Oh I understand it perfectly. And I respect it. But you cannot blame me to have not assumed it when you did not speak of it.
Yes I did, and you ignored the quote I provided as proof?
Dude...there was 2 times when you accepted God exist before your "proof"
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 11, 2014, 05:19:38 PM
It seems like you have some sort of problem because you fail to understand the term "For the sake of the argument".
Oh I understand it perfectly. And I respect it. But you cannot blame me to have not assumed it when you did not speak of it.
Yes I did, and you ignored the quote I provided as proof?
Dude...there was 2 times when you accepted God exist before your "proof"
No I did not. If I wrote poorly or you misinterpreted,  then I'm sorry. But don't tell me I believe in God from now. You have the answer now: No, not at a single moment in our discussion did I actually accept god as a legit fact. If you misinterpreted or I ssid it poorly, I apologize.

Now, answer those that you skipped.

(Do not reply to this if you have not yet replied to all those skipped posts, please) This is why I insulted you. Why else the hell would be having this conversation if I agreed that God exists? Seriously, use your deduction skills.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 11, 2014, 05:33:09 PM
God is part of everything, according to you. If nothing existed, he wouldnt exist either.
Yes since God exist.
Quote
Therefore, "He made everything when nothing existed" does not make sense.
I agree. He existed when nothing but him existed.
Quote
You agreed God must exist in Space Time
Only if space time is everything (meaning that space time is God too, like a synonym or something similar). Or only if nothing exist out of space time.(since God exist he must be in space time)
Quote
and if wasn't always around, then God, who exists only in space time, cannot make space and time, since he did not exist yet.
God did not make himself. Does that help?

For the sake of argument. Let's say that God did not make space and time. What does it prove? Does space and time need to me made by something or someone?

Oh, and please answer my post. You answered all the insults, now please answer the actual content of it.
And all of the above that you ignored, you know which ones.
I will not refute your "Assertion" until you do so.
I'm sorry every-time I read these I get so angry because of the insults that I cannot read the questions that you want me to answer. Maybe If you ask them again without the insults this time?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 11, 2014, 05:35:56 PM
Now God exists
That is existence, just like god
Those 2 where said before yesterday. (not bad, 2 out of the 3 I cited)
But that's ok, if you want to go back on you word.

If I wrote poorly [...] then I'm sorry.
[...] I ssid it poorly, I apologize.
I'm glad you went back on your word :)
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 11, 2014, 07:51:54 PM
God is part of everything, according to you. If nothing existed, he wouldnt exist either.
Yes since God exist.
evidence.
Quote
Therefore, "He made everything when nothing existed" does not make sense.
I agree. He existed when nothing but him existed.
if nothing existed, space time did not exist. If space time did not exist, god did not exist, since he can only exist in spade time.
Quote
You agreed God must exist in Space Time
Only if space time is everything (meaning that space time is God too, like a synonym or something similar). Or only if nothing exist out of space time.(since God exist he must be in space time).If space time is god, then you just admitted god was not always around (which goes against your idea of an eternal god)
Quote
and if wasn't always around, then God, who exists only in space time, cannot make space and time, since he did not exist yet.
God did not make himself. Does that help?

For the sake of argument. Let's say that God did not make space and time. What does it prove? Does space and time need to me made by something or someone?
God did not make space and time, because he couldn't have existed without space and time in the first place, so you are correct in saying he didn't make it, because that would not make sense. What does it prove? That your creation story is false. "Need"? Elaborate please. If I am missing something here, tell me, but yes it kinda "needs" to have a moment of creation or nothing would exist.
Oh, and please answer my post. You answered all the insults, now please answer the actual content of it.
And all of the above that you ignored, you know which ones.
I will not refute your "Assertion" until you do so.
I'm sorry every-time I read these I get so angry because of the insults that I cannot read the questions that you want me to answer. Maybe If you ask them again without the insults this time?
No insult here, but I'm kind of in a hurry. And I suck at quoting, but they are just up there.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 11, 2014, 11:39:15 PM
That's ok I have time. I'll wait.
To the question "Does space and time need to be made by something or someone?" You answered : "yes it kinda "needs" to have a moment of creation or nothing would exist" How is that "moment" possible? There nothing exist out of space and time, not even this "moment of creation".
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 12, 2014, 05:12:59 AM
That's ok I have time. I'll wait.
To the question "Does space and time need to be made by something or someone?" You answered : "yes it kinda "needs" to have a moment of creation or nothing would exist" How is that "moment" possible? There nothing exist out of space and time, not even this "moment of creation".
How? No one knows. But it is not a free pass for you to make up fairy tales.

Now, answer all of that post that you skipped.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 12, 2014, 01:37:16 PM
How? No one knows. But it is not a free pass for you to make up fairy tales.

Now, answer all of that post that you skipped.
You seem to be sure that this moment exist thou. Why?
I don't know what are the questions you wish me to answer. Ask them again.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 12, 2014, 02:53:12 PM
"You seem to be sure..."

Nope. I am not making a positive assertion about the "before" of the Big Bang. We simply do not know. You are not going to shift the burden of proof on me. You have yet to provide evidence for god's existence.

And ok, I'll find them and repost them.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 12, 2014, 03:16:46 PM
So I'll ask the question again. This time answer with that in mind.
Does space and time need to be made by something or someone?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 12, 2014, 04:40:56 PM
So I'll ask the question again. This time answer with that in mind.
Does space and time need to be made by something or someone?
Does the world exist?
You agree with me that space time exists.

You agreed with me that space time was not always around.

And the Big Bang theory works from the first fraction of a second, and nothing before.

But using my simply deduction skill, the one you'll twist around anyways, yes, it wasn't always around (as we agreed), now it is. Therefore, there does have to be a gap in our scientific knowledge that must be filled by that "creation" moment.

Again, no one knows the answer. I am sure as hell those ancient goat herders didn't know jack about quantum physics, so a magical god was the answer. Little did they know science would come along and blow their minds: Earth is flat? Nope. Rain comes because of a ghost dance. Nope. The entire universe revolves around us. Nope.

Same way, we are getting there. Bit by bit, piece by piece, all superstition is being stripped away. Maybe someday our children will know the answer, the true one, the one they can prove to themselves, over and over, with the same result every time.

Until then, I can only hope to contribute to our growing knowledge of astrophysics.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 12, 2014, 05:47:50 PM
YES the world exist. What kind of question is that?
I agreed with you that NOTHING was always around. Space time being SOMETHING it's logical that it was not always around.

So... I'll ask the question again. This time answer with in mind that you said "I am not making a positive assertion about the "before" of the Big Bang. We simply do not know"
Does space and time need to be made by something or someone?
Please answer by YES, NO or OTHER.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 12, 2014, 06:58:39 PM
Yes:

If there was once nothing, then there was something, then of course it needs some semblance of a beginning.

Hi about this, just forget all the other ones for now, answer thi, since you forgot to refute the majority of it:
God is part of everything, according to you. If nothing existed, he wouldnt exist either.
Yes since God exist.
evidence.
Quote
Therefore, "He made everything when nothing existed" does not make sense.
I agree. He existed when nothing but him existed.
if nothing existed, space time did not exist. If space time did not exist, god did not exist, since he can only exist in spade time.
Quote
You agreed God must exist in Space Time
Only if space time is everything (meaning that space time is God too, like a synonym or something similar). Or only if nothing exist out of space time.(since God exist he must be in space time).If space time is god, then you just admitted god was not always around (which goes against your idea of an eternal god)
Quote
and if wasn't always around, then God, who exists only in space time, cannot make space and time, since he did not exist yet.
God did not make himself. Does that help?

For the sake of argument. Let's say that God did not make space and time. What does it prove? Does space and time need to me made by something or someone?
God did not make space and time, because he couldn't have existed without space and time in the first place, so you are correct in saying he didn't make it, because that would not make sense. What does it prove? That your creation story is false. "Need"? Elaborate please. If I am missing something here, tell me, but yes it kinda "needs" to have a moment of creation or nothing would exist.
Oh, and please answer my post. You answered all the insults, now please answer the actual content of it.
And all of the above that you ignored, you know which ones.
I will not refute your "Assertion" until you do so.
I'm sorry every-time I read these I get so angry because of the insults that I cannot read the questions that you want me to answer. Maybe If you ask them again without the insults this time?
No insult here, but I'm kind of in a hurry. And I suck at quoting, but they are just up there.


Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 12, 2014, 07:12:07 PM
Don't you feel that "If there was once nothing, then there was something, then of course it needs some semblance of a beginning." and "I am not making a positive assertion about the "before" of the Big Bang. We simply do not know." Are opposing each other?
How is it possible that you know that there is a something or someone outside space time (to make it begin) and at the same time knowing that there is nothing else than space time. Isn't those 2 things contradictory?

About the quote, I don't see any question in there.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 12, 2014, 07:37:54 PM
Don't you feel that "If there was once nothing, then there was something, then of course it needs some semblance of a beginning." and "I am not making a positive assertion about the "before" of the Big Bang. We simply do not know." Are opposing each other?
How is it possible that you know that there is a something or someone outside space time (to make it begin) and at the same time knowing that there is nothing else than space time. Isn't those 2 things contradictory?

About the quote, I don't see any question in there.
Nope. They are not.

One says that according to nature, if there is nothing, then there is something, something happened in between to bring it about. The other one says we dont exactly know what it was that did that, you disagree?

Your turn.

(And this is also the question I talked about)

Evidence, please.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 12, 2014, 08:18:03 PM
Evidence about what? The existence of God? If so that is what I am getting at. Once we cleared this before big bang that is and is not at the same time.

I disagree. Nothing can exist Before the Big bang, not even this "before" since nothing exist out of space and time and before the big bang there was no space and time i.e. nothing existed before the big bang not even this "before". I agree that everything has a cause but since your definition of EXIST exclude all things before the big bang, the big bang has no cause. It is the exception to the rule.
For you, is it possible for the "before" of the Big Bang to exist since nothing exist out of space and time?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 12, 2014, 09:00:56 PM
Hold on, if nothing existed, how did God exist?

You don't seem to be getting it. No one, no one knows of the "before". All they can do is gather evidence (the one you seem to lack), and make a theory that fits the observations they gathered, as closely as possible.

For me, you ask? I go with science. It doesn't know what went down in the "before", therefore neither do I.

I am not the one claiming the exact cause of the Big Bang, you are. Therefore, the burden of proof is on you.

And I repeat, evidence, please.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 12, 2014, 09:11:58 PM
Well that's the question isn't it?
What I'm trying desperately here is to help you realize that there MUST exist something that doesn't have a cause. That has never "not existed" if not, reason is impossible.something that, contrary of what you rhink , was always around.
To make you realize such a thing I attempted to follow your reasoning up to the point where it doesn't make sense anymore. So do you admit that something must have "always been around" or shall I continue to make you say things that contradict each other?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 12, 2014, 09:15:59 PM
Well that's the question isn't it?
What I'm trying desperately here is to help you realize that there MUST exist something that doesn't have a cause. That has never "not existed" if not, reason is impossible.something that, contrary of what you rhink , was always around.
To make you realize such a thing I attempted to follow your reasoning up to the point where it doesn't make sense anymore. So do you admit that something must have "always been around" or shall I continue to make you say things that contradict each other?
Read above, edits.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 12, 2014, 09:28:58 PM
I'm not claiming the exact cause of the big bang. I'm claiming that there is something that has always been around and that this thing is named God. You can give it any synonym if you want but it exist.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 12, 2014, 09:31:35 PM
I'm not claiming the exact cause of the big bang. I'm claiming that there is something that has always been around and that this thing is named God. You can give it any synonym if you want but it exist.
Evidence, please. Connect it concretely,  since you seem to be one step ahead of physics and science, go ahead, tell us how something could exist before existence was allowed. Evidence, please, you know how difficult peer reviewers can be.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 12, 2014, 09:36:26 PM
Let me copy paste the evidence, you seem to have Skipp it :
" What I'm trying desperately here is to help you realize that there MUST exist something that doesn't have a cause. That has never "not existed" if not, reason is impossible.something that, contrary of what you rhink , was always around.
To make you realize such a thing I attempted to follow your reasoning up to the point where it doesn't make sense anymore. So do you admit that something must have "always been around" or shall I continue to make you say things that contradict each other?"
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 12, 2014, 09:51:07 PM
Let me copy paste the evidence, you seem to have Skipp it :
" What I'm trying desperately here is to help you realize that there MUST exist something that doesn't have a cause. That has never "not existed" if not, reason is impossible.something that, contrary of what you rhink , was always around.
To make you realize such a thing I attempted to follow your reasoning up to the point where it doesn't make sense anymore. So do you admit that something must have "always been around" or shall I continue to make you say things that contradict each other?"
You forgot to include evidence.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 12, 2014, 09:55:57 PM
No I did not. YOU are the evidence I bring. Your own logic.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 12, 2014, 10:31:32 PM
No I did not. YOU are the evidence I bring. Your own logic.
My logic clearly states existence is impossible without space and time, yet here you are saying that god exists without space and time in the "before" realm.

That is a positive assertion and against my logic. Burden of proof is on you.

Evidence, please.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 12, 2014, 10:35:18 PM
You logic failed. You did not answer my question. Let me ask you again :
What I'm trying desperately here is to help you realize that there MUST exist something that doesn't have a cause. That has never "not existed" if not, reason is impossible.something that, contrary of what you rhink , was always around.
To make you realize such a thing I attempted to follow your reasoning up to the point where it doesn't make sense anymore. So do you admit that something must have "always been around" or shall I continue to make you say things that contradict each other?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 12, 2014, 10:40:54 PM
You logic failed. You did not answer my question. Let me ask you again :
What I'm trying desperately here is to help you realize that there MUST exist something that doesn't have a cause. That has never "not existed" if not, reason is impossible.something that, contrary of what you rhink , was always around.
To make you realize such a thing I attempted to follow your reasoning up to the point where it doesn't make sense anymore. So do you admit that something must have "always been around" or shall I continue to make you say things that contradict each other?
No, you are mistaken. My logic is intact. I've admitted all the gaps that science must fill, and it is you, who has yet to provide evidence that your God can exist outside of space time.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 12, 2014, 10:44:36 PM
Dude answer the question. A or B?
A : you admit that something must have "always been around"
B :  I continue to make you say things that contradict each other
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 13, 2014, 06:02:31 AM
Dude answer the question. A or B?
A : you admit that something must have "always been around"
B :  I continue to make you say things that contradict each other
The irony is just amazing here.

Here you are saying that God only exists in Space time, and then you go on saying he existed before space and time. Funny how it works.

Or you can choose C, provide evidence that something can exist forever, when existence only began at a certain point. Then I will have no problem believing.

Again, evidence, please. I am starting to think you have no such thing as evidence. Go ahead, prove me right.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 13, 2014, 10:27:26 AM
YOU are the evidence I bring. Your own logic.
When I follow your logic there comes a time when you cannot keep saying that there was nothing before the big bang. Or in other words that there was nothing before the beginning of existence. BUT, at the same time YOU say that there must be something that caused the big bang (even if you don't know what) and that contradict the first premise.
I must conclude that one of your two premise must be false.
So, I'm asking you, which one?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 13, 2014, 10:57:11 AM
YOU are the evidence I bring. Your own logic.
When I follow your logic there comes a time when you cannot keep saying that there was nothing before the big bang. Or in other words that there was nothing before the beginning of existence. BUT, at the same time YOU say that there must be something that caused the big bang (even if you don't know what) and that contradict the first premise.
I must conclude that one of your two premise must be false.
So, I'm asking you, which one?

No it does not have flaws. YOU are the one claiming your god defies my logic. Evidence, please, that your god could exist counter to my logic.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 13, 2014, 12:35:24 PM
So, you are saying that telling 2 opposite truth[1] does not consist on a logic flaw?
 1. there was nothing before the beginning of existence/ there must be something before the beginning of existence
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 15, 2014, 03:29:39 PM
Quote me exactly where I said there "must" be something that exists, where nothing can exist, in order to make existence possible. Quote me exactly.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 15, 2014, 06:38:29 PM
Quote me exactly where I said there "must" be something that exists, where nothing can exist, in order to make existence possible. Quote me exactly.
Here it is :
Yes:
If there was once nothing, then there was something, then of course it needs some semblance of a beginning.
You were talking about the big bang.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 15, 2014, 09:15:01 PM
Quote me exactly where I said there "must" be something that exists, where nothing can exist, in order to make existence possible. Quote me exactly.
Here it is :
Yes:
If there was once nothing, then there was something, then of course it needs some semblance of a beginning.
You were talking about the big bang.
And where did I make a positive claim that wasn't just purely logic thinking?

Did I say what the beginning it? Did I say how it worked? Did I say where or not the beginning was made out of cake?

I've stated before. We don't know, no one, what the actual beginning was. We can clearly trace back the evidence and observation back to a point where all matter seems to converge at a single point. Therefore we theorised (look up Scientific Theory) that because of this, it must have had some sort of a beginning from which matter was thrown in all directions.

No one said what exactly it was. Except the religious loonies who take advantage of this gap in our knowledge and fill it with unsubstantiated claims.

YOU are making a positive claim that your god was what made the universe.

Therefore, burden of proof lies on you. Evidence, please.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 15, 2014, 11:41:48 PM
I an not making the claim that God made the universe anymore. That claim will come later once you deal with your inconsistency.

So, you are saying that telling 2 opposite truth[1] does not consist on a logic flaw?
See? I added the "even if we don't know what" to take into account your last post.
 1. there was nothing before the beginning of existence/ there must be something (even if we don't know what) before the beginning of existence
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 16, 2014, 05:56:33 AM
Typical. Withdraw your claim when asked for evidence.

I already explained; I did not state that something must exist outside of time as space to make time and space. My quote that you provided shows nothing, either.

It's been 5 pages. I have yet to see a shred of evidence from you.

Either you provide evidence, or end this debate with a "we don't know" and never make such a claim again.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 16, 2014, 06:09:10 AM
Yes:
If there was once nothing, then there was something, then of course it [the big bang] needs some semblance of a beginning.
Tell me again. What do you mean by that if not "there must be something (even if we don't know what) before the big bang"?
I did not state that something must exist outside of time as space to make time and space.
Did the thing that made time and space was in time and space? (I guess you wanted to write time AND space instead of time as space.)
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 16, 2014, 06:40:03 AM
Yes:
If there was once nothing, then there was something, then of course it [the big bang] needs some semblance of a beginning.
Tell me again. What do you mean by that if not "there must be something (even if we don't know what) before the big bang"?
I did not state that something must exist outside of time as space to make time and space.
Did the thing that made time and space was in time and space? (I guess you wanted to write time AND space instead of time as space.)
And where did I say that "beginning" needs to be outside of time and space?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 16, 2014, 06:45:44 AM
And where did I say that "beginning" needs to be outside of time and space?
That's why I asked : Did the thing that made time and space was in time and space?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: screwtape on May 16, 2014, 08:03:28 AM
Let me ask a question or two that might help move things along.

Can non-existence exist?  Is it possible for "nothing" to exist?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 16, 2014, 08:08:16 AM
Let me ask a question or two that might help move things along.
Can non-existence exist?  Is it possible for "nothing" to exist?

Yes. Black is the perfect example. Black is the name given to the product of non existence of all the visual spectral colors.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 16, 2014, 02:55:30 PM
And where did I say that "beginning" needs to be outside of time and space?
That's why I asked : Did the thing that made time and space was in time and space?
We don't know the "thing" or "what" "caused" the Big Bang. That is my whole point. No smart scientist has yet made a full positive claim that he knows exactly what "caused" the Big Bang.

Only churches and YOU make the full claim that God made it.

Burden of proof is, and has been on you. Provide evidence or drop your claim and stop claiming God made the world when you have zero evidence.

Black? Black is the absence of light. Does a hole exist? When there is an absence of light, there is still other things going on; air is still in the "black area", and there could also be other radiation you can't see so it seems to be "black".

But really? Black means light that isn't there doesn't exist? Because I didn't point my light at a certain area, means that light doesn't exist? No, all it means is that it is in a different position in space.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 16, 2014, 02:56:07 PM
Please Luk, give me evidence. You wasted 5 pages. Please pay up.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 16, 2014, 03:27:26 PM
I'm sorry I don't understand your answer. Did the thing that made time and space was in time and space?
Yes or No please. It's a really logic question. There is no science involved here.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 16, 2014, 03:44:28 PM
I'm sorry I don't understand your answer. Did the thing that made time and space was in time and space?
Yes or No please. It's a really logic question. There is no science involved here.
I don't know. No one knows.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 16, 2014, 03:52:02 PM
Good we agree with your answer, not your explanation. It not because no one knows that the answer is no. It is because it's logical to say that the thing who create is separate from the thing that is created.
For example I am separate from the table that I just created.

You understand now? (yes or no)
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 16, 2014, 04:01:10 PM
Good we agree with your answer, not your explanation. It not because no one knows that the answer is no. It is because it's logical to say that the thing who create is separate from the thing that is created.
For example I am separate from the table that I just created.

You understand now? (yes or no)

Non sequitur. Refer to OAA's refutation of your Non Sequiter, if you don't get it.

I said we don't know, and you jump to saying "therefore what made the universe must be separate".
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 16, 2014, 05:24:09 PM
Not cool, changing your post after I made mine....not cool at all.
Is it that hard to say yes or no?
If you don't understand I can explain more. I even gave you an example. Did you understand the example? What part don't you understand?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 16, 2014, 06:10:05 PM
Not cool, changing your post after I made mine....not cool at all.
Is it that hard to say yes or no?
If you don't understand I can explain more. I even gave you an example. Did you understand the example? What part don't you understand?
I changed it way before you posted. Stop lying, you can ask Screwtape for a time stamp confirmation, if possible.
I changed it to clear thing up; the original was kind of vague.

What don't YOU understand about "we don't know"? If you disagree, feel free provide evidence.

Which of course, you haven't been doing.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 16, 2014, 06:19:01 PM
Look what I found in OAA's debate!

Luk: "Yes it was the proof of the existence of God."

Please, start introducing some into this debate too.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 16, 2014, 07:28:47 PM
I'm not claiming the exact cause of the big bang. I'm claiming that there is something that has always been around and that this thing is named God. You can give it any synonym if you want but it exist.
Hence God exist.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 16, 2014, 07:34:38 PM
The proof.
Since something that has been created must be created by something else AND the big bang was created THEN something else than the big bang must exist.
Since the big bang is the creation of time, this thing must be out of time and thus must have always been around.
This thing exist.
This thing Is God.
God exist.
QED (quod erat demonstrandum)
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 16, 2014, 07:43:43 PM
The proof.
Since something that has been created must be created by something else AND the big bang was created THEN something else than the big bang must exist.
Since the big bang is the creation of time, this thing must be out of time and thus must have always been around.
This thing exist.
This thing Is God.
God exist.
QED (quod erat demonstrandum)
:D
Explain how it can exist outside of time and space if exstance occurs only in time and space?
And while you're at it, who made your god?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 16, 2014, 07:50:38 PM
Put it in a way in which a physicist can pick it up and see it for himself and make his own observations. Then you can go back on your word about our agreement; that a god would only exist in time and space. (Which, the actual god, hasn't been proven yet).

Then you can tell us how your god,  who is made of nothing,  can interact with physical world. You can also, with evidence, tell us how he could do all these actions without the passage of Time, and the space of Space, since actions must occur over time and in space.

Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 16, 2014, 07:51:28 PM
I'm not claiming the exact cause of the big bang. I'm claiming that there is something that has always been around and that this thing is named God. You can give it any synonym if you want but it exist.
Hence God exist.
"I can't prove it, but it exists. So it exists."
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 16, 2014, 08:48:53 PM
Explain how it can exist outside of time and space if exstance occurs only in time and space?
And while you're at it, who made your god?
God have always been around. Meaning he has no start and no finish. No one "made" God.
God is so powerful that he can exist outside time and space. Heck, the guy is even omnipotent.
Put it in a way in which a physicist can pick it up and see it for himself and make his own observations.
you want flowers with that?

Quote
Then you can tell us how your god,  who is made of nothing,  can interact with physical world.
He can interact through me or through miracles.
Quote
You can also, with evidence, tell us how he could do all these actions without the passage of Time, and the space of Space, since actions must occur over time and in space.
He is omnipotent.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 16, 2014, 09:55:30 PM
Any actual evidence or just your word for it?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 16, 2014, 10:07:05 PM
Miracles you failed to proof were real in other threads?

God, you say can exist before "exist" was a thing? Goes against your agreement with the statement that everything must exist in space time.

Again, your argument from ignorance is really showing through. Our gap in scientific knowledge does not give you authority to make up these tales, that you have NOT proven.

Is he omnipotent? Really? Prove his existence first, then name properties. All you have done so far is give some unsubstantiated assertive claim that:

"We don't know how the Big Bang came to be"
"God did it"
"But how can you back that up with evidence?"
"Because there needs to be a god there"

Seriously?

You have again, made the claim that your god has been forever, even though time only started ticking at the start of Big Bang...

He was passing time before time started passing? Non sequitur. It does not follow.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 16, 2014, 11:09:30 PM
Miracles you failed to proof were real in other threads?
Liar. I proved them real. I gave the definition of a miracle then gave proof (examples) that such things corresponding to the definition existed.

Quote
God, you say can exist before "exist" was a thing? Goes against your agreement with the statement that everything must exist in space time.

No, where do I say that? You are the only one saying that.
Let me remind you that before the post #132 I destroyed your definition of existence with logic.
Quote
Again, your argument from ignorance is really showing through. Our gap in scientific knowledge does not give you authority to make up these tales, that you have NOT proven.

Again it is not an argument from ignorance. Something does not become that because you just say so. You have to prove it first.
I agree with you that there is a gap in our scientific knowledge, we don't know what happen before the Big Bang. But we know that something happen.
I don't understand what tales you are talking about. You are the one making tales. I use logic to prove the existence of God.

"We don't know how the Big Bang came to be" : I agree
"God did it" : Nope. God created everything doesn't mean that God made the Big bang.
"But how can you back that up with evidence?" : I use logic as evidence.
"Seriously?" Yes.
"You have again, made the claim that your god has been forever, even though time only started ticking at the start of Big Bang..." Yes
"He was passing time before time started passing?" No.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 18, 2014, 04:56:28 PM
Then kindly requote your "evidence" for the reality of miracles, plus the definition.

In post 29, you included this in your response:

"Heaven, Hell and God are all in space and time."

Nope, you didn't come close to "destroying" anything. Where do you think you "destroyed" it?

" Something does not become that because you just say so. You have to prove it first."

Ironic.

Which tales am I making?

And now you say god didn't cause the big bang. Yet he created everything? THAT is contradictory.


I use a science called logic. You should try it sometime. It brings evidence to the existence of God.

Logic can't bring you anything outside the axioms that you started with. A consequence of using logic is that logic created this rule.

See above ^

Plus, you fail to provide evidence for how something can exist without space time for it to exist in.

You're not getting anywhere by making more claims. Your "proof" proved nothing except "We dont know what happened, but I do; a magical creature had to exist to make whatever was made, but the creature itself was never made, so he kinda just was there, but he exists without time and space, just doing things when things weren't allowed to happen, and things couldn't happen because time was not there, but he did it with magic. Whoosh."

And no, no flowers, some actual evidence would be fine. Use evidence to back up logic.

Long story short, you need something more than "Because you need a god right there". That statement prooves nothing. I can say "We need a carrot right there." It would be equally correct.



Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 19, 2014, 08:57:38 AM
The definition of carrot is already taken. A carrot couldn't be always around.
There is my logic again.
Before the big bang there was no time. Ok?
Something must have started the big bang. OK?
This something must have been always around (since there was no time)
This something that started the big bang is God.
Therefore God exist.
You could have called the something "xoplu" instead of "God " But xoplu does not have a definition allowing him to be that something that started the big bang.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 19, 2014, 04:44:00 PM
The definition of carrot is already taken. A carrot couldn't be always around.
There is my logic again.
Before the big bang there was no time. Ok?
Something must have started the big bang. OK?
This something must have been always around (since there was no time)
This something that started the big bang is God.
Therefore God exist.
You could have called the something "xoplu" instead of "God " But xoplu does not have a definition allowing him to be that something that started the big bang.
Provide evidence that something can exist "before" space and time were around.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 19, 2014, 09:24:57 PM
Here is the proof :
Something must have started the big bang. We agreed on that already. The big bang is when the space time was created. Which means this something was there before space and time. Agreed?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on May 30, 2014, 03:28:24 PM
I have been busy, sorry. I will reply another day. Sorry for the wait, I just have many exams.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on May 30, 2014, 03:37:14 PM
No trouble. Take your time.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on June 17, 2014, 05:36:02 PM
Dang it. Posts have been deleted :( .
Please re present your best scientifically compatible proof of the existence of a god.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on June 17, 2014, 08:11:23 PM
You were arguing that nothing existed outside space and time and that we don't know what caused the Big Bang even if we know that it has been caused.
I was trying to show you the non sense of that i.e. There must be something existing outside time and space.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on June 17, 2014, 08:30:55 PM
You were arguing that nothing existed outside space and time and that we don't know what caused the Big Bang even if we know that it has been caused.
I was trying to show you the non sense of that i.e. There must be something existing outside time and space.
So now you're special pleading?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on June 18, 2014, 09:36:18 PM
No. Just pointing out your mistake.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on June 18, 2014, 09:39:56 PM
Nope. Burden of proof is on you to provide evidence for existence without time and space. Saying something "must", doesn't cut it here. Demonstrate it with scientific evidence.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on June 18, 2014, 09:52:40 PM
Quote from: Lukvance
Does space and time need to me made by something or someone?
If I am missing something here, tell me, but yes it kinda "needs" to have a moment of creation or nothing would exist.[/b]
Let's start again :
Does space and time need to me made by something or someone?
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Defiance on June 18, 2014, 09:57:24 PM
Quote from: Lukvance
Does space and time need to me made by something or someone?
If I am missing something here, tell me, but yes it kinda "needs" to have a moment of creation or nothing would exist.[/b]
Let's start again :
Does space and time need to me made by something or someone?
Unknown. We know nothing before 10^-43 seconds before the Big Bang. That's my answer. Unknown, as said by science.
Title: Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
Post by: Lukvance on June 18, 2014, 10:23:55 PM
Do you know about the string theory?