whywontgodhealamputees.com

Main Discussion Zone => General Religious Discussion => Topic started by: Lukvance on April 08, 2014, 02:18:29 PM

Title: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on April 08, 2014, 02:18:29 PM

I had a discussion with epidemic that went like this :

LukeVance


Why does you avatar have a anglo Jesus?


Why can't/wont god heal amputees?


Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man who turned on him? (both situations according to the bible made him angry.)  If god knows all, is not bound by time and has absolute power why would he keep doing things that disappoint him.




Finally why make me with a fallible brain, knowing (in his infine wisdom) that I would take all the evidence of his existence and misread it as fable.  Then for a simple mistake of reason punish me for a finite sin of a fallible brain (he created) to an eternity of punishment? (mind you I don't disbelieve in god because I don't like him, I dont believe because I find his story to be ficticious)


Oh yeah, why all the mystery, surely a visible god is much easier to believe in.  Why all the cloak and dagger shit? Appear in the sky blow up some sinners and write a bible in a language that all humans understand at their core, no translation errors or misunderstanding.  Hell writing a bible that all humans understand at a genetic level would certainly go a long way toward to converting me I think.  Why let your word be corrupted by mistranslations, and period sensitive verses that are culturally meaningless today.
You're funny, Welcome to the conversation about the existence of God. For me to answer your question you will have to acknowledge first his existence (that's what implied in your questions). Do you agree with me that God exist?


Why would I need to acknowledge gods existence for you to comment.  But if it makes you feel better I will acknowlege his existence for the sake of argument. 


Personally as we learn more about the universe we slowly push back the place where god must have existed.  Once upon a time god was necessary for lightning to strike (then we learned about electrons), rain to come (condensation and evaporation), stars to exist (gravity and burning hydrogen).  Our knowledge of the mechanics of weather, universe do not eliminate the possibility of god, only offers a non supernatural alternative.  Now the place where I still leave reserved for possible proof of god is the instant the big bang began.  The only place I see as a last refuge for proving god is in my ignorance of the creation of everything from nothing.   


For the moment I will take that shread of belief in the possibility of a creator to be my belief in god/any flavor of the christian bible you choose.  So go ahead and answer the questions above.




PS just thought of another great proof.  Any attempt to misrepresent the word of god on paper results in the words catching fire, and uttering falsehoods about god makes you violently ill.
I thought I would create a new thread to answer his questions because I found them out of subject over there.

Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on April 08, 2014, 02:21:36 PM
I believe he can heal amputees but he wants to follow his laws. Nothing is lost, nothing is created. If a miracle where to happen it would be him reattaching the limb to the amputee, not creating a new one out of thin air.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Dante on April 08, 2014, 02:53:04 PM
I believe he can heal amputees but he wants to follow his laws. Nothing is lost, nothing is created. If a miracle where to happen it would be him reattaching the limb to the amputee, not creating a new one out of thin air.

The point of the question is; if your god, as so many Christians believe, regularly heals the sick of cancers and a multitude of other various illnesses via miracles, why is that it wont heal any amputees? Why are people never cured of alzhiemers, no matter how much they might pray? Why are they never cured of incurable disease?

Of course, if you're not one of those believers that thinks your god interferes with maladies afflicting its creation, well then the question doesn't really apply to you.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: jdawg70 on April 08, 2014, 03:46:06 PM
I believe he can heal amputees but he wants to follow his laws. Nothing is lost, nothing is created.
Do we assume all the descriptions of god apparently violating his own laws to manifest some outcome, then, are all metaphorical?

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If a miracle where to happen it would be him reattaching the limb to the amputee, not creating a new one out of thin air.
a) This seems like...something that would still violate the laws you alluded to earlier.  Maybe I'm not too certain which laws you are referring to.  You said 'nothing is lost, nothing is created', which seems to refer to conservation of mass/energy.  If you mean that he won't violate laws of physics to manifest an outcome, then I fail to see how he'd be able to do so without violating at least some law of physics.

Is this one of those 'god will send a doctor/helicopter' kind of arguments?

b) Is there a difference between 'miracle' and 'positive outcome'?


In any case, it sounds like your answer to the question "Why won't god heal amputees" is simply that he does not want to.  Or he wants to do some other things more.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on April 08, 2014, 04:46:07 PM
Do we assume all the descriptions of god apparently violating his own laws to manifest some outcome, then, are all metaphorical?
No. I don't see when does he violate his laws?
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a) This seems like...something that would still violate the laws you alluded to earlier.  Maybe I'm not too certain which laws you are referring to.  You said 'nothing is lost, nothing is created', which seems to refer to conservation of mass/energy.  If you mean that he won't violate laws of physics to manifest an outcome, then I fail to see how he'd be able to do so without violating at least some law of physics.
I was referring to the law of conservation of mass/energy indeed. Reattach a limb does not violate any laws of physics...that I know of.

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Is there a difference between 'miracle' and 'positive outcome'?
Well, every miracle have a positive outcome. I guess the other way around would work but first we must agree that there are different degrees of miracles. If not, then a positive outcome is not a miracle.
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In any case, it sounds like your answer to the question "Why won't god heal amputees" is simply that he does not want to.  Or he wants to do some other things more.
I agree with the second part. Some other things are more important to us (so, to Him as well) than heal amputees.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: hickdive on April 09, 2014, 06:13:39 AM
I believe he can heal amputees but he wants to follow his laws. Nothing is lost, nothing is created. If a miracle where to happen it would be him reattaching the limb to the amputee, not creating a new one out of thin air.

But time, space, light, the earth, the sky, animals, and humans can be created out of nothing (as per genesis in the bible) without violating his own laws?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Anfauglir on April 09, 2014, 06:49:19 AM
I believe he can heal amputees but he wants to follow his laws. Nothing is lost, nothing is created.

So we can discount any alleged "miracle" where god causes material to appear from nothing.  We can also discount any "miracle" where things move without cause, violating physical laws.  And we can discount any healing "miracles" at all - anything that would not have happened naturally as a result of time and treatment and medicine likewise violates the laws put in place.

We can discount any communication from god as well.  Hearing a physical voice?  Nope - because he won't create sound waves from nothing.  Hearing a voice in your head?  Nope again - because it would require changes to electrochemical activity on the brain, which - again - can't be created from nothing.

So your contention is that god never intervenes in the universe in any way.  Okay.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Graybeard on April 09, 2014, 07:15:07 AM
I agree with the second part. Some other things are more important to us (so, to Him as well) than heal amputees.
No. This cannot be correct. The religious all agree that God can do anything. Yet the thing he has never done is heal an amputee. He has, allegedly, cured the blind, lame, deaf, mad, leprous, etc. He is credited with healing all things. He must be aware of amputees. Why, in all the years he has been around, has he never given one their limb back?

There must have been amputees of all faiths and levels of faith. There must have been prayers to heal amputees from people of all faiths and levels of faith. Yet, nothing. Nothing at all.

Could it be possible that it is easy to lie about whether you were blind, lame, deaf, mad, leprous, etc. but to lie about being an amputee is almost impossible?

I am reminded of Monty Python and The Holy Grail in which a peasant (John Cleese) claims to have been turned into a newt. Suddenly there is silence and all the other peasants all look at him... "I got better."

To claim a cure for an amputee is to jump the shark. Even the most fanatical theist has to draw a line somewhere.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: jdawg70 on April 09, 2014, 08:16:15 AM
No. I don't see when does he violate his laws?
Resurrection of the dead seems to be one of those.
"Thou shalt not kill"
Ten plagues of Egypt.

Just a few possible examples.

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I was referring to the law of conservation of mass/energy indeed. Reattach a limb does not violate any laws of physics...that I know of.
Well how do you imagine god to accomplish the feat?

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Well, every miracle have a positive outcome. I guess the other way around would work but first we must agree that there are different degrees of miracles. If not, then a positive outcome is not a miracle.
How do you go about measuring 'degrees of miracles'?  Is miracle synonymous with 'unlikely event that results in a positive outcome'?

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In any case, it sounds like your answer to the question "Why won't god heal amputees" is simply that he does not want to.  Or he wants to do some other things more.
I agree with the second part. Some other things are more important to us (so, to Him as well) than heal amputees.
Do you think ending world hunger is higher or lower on god's Priority List of Things to Help Humanity (whom I so love and care about) Out With?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on April 10, 2014, 05:18:26 PM
I believe he can heal amputees but he wants to follow his laws. Nothing is lost, nothing is created. If a miracle where to happen it would be him reattaching the limb to the amputee, not creating a new one out of thin air.

But time, space, light, the earth, the sky, animals, and humans can be created out of nothing (as per genesis in the bible) without violating his own laws?
For that to be true, the Genesis book must be and historical book. Why would think that Genesis is an historical book? (I don't)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on April 10, 2014, 05:30:56 PM
I believe he can heal amputees but he wants to follow his laws. Nothing is lost, nothing is created.

So we can discount any alleged "miracle" where god causes material to appear from nothing.  We can also discount any "miracle" where things move without cause, violating physical laws.  And we can discount any healing "miracles" at all - anything that would not have happened naturally as a result of time and treatment and medicine likewise violates the laws put in place.

We can discount any communication from god as well.  Hearing a physical voice?  Nope - because he won't create sound waves from nothing.  Hearing a voice in your head?  Nope again - because it would require changes to electrochemical activity on the brain, which - again - can't be created from nothing.

So your contention is that god never intervenes in the universe in any way.  Okay.

Not at all. Miracles are, sometime, things that happens (or happened) that science could not explain. It does not mean that we won't be able to explain it in the future nor that it breaks the laws of physics. It might break the laws of physics as we know it now and not later.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on April 10, 2014, 05:42:41 PM
I agree with the second part. Some other things are more important to us (so, to Him as well) than heal amputees.
No. This cannot be correct. The religious all agree that God can do anything. Yet the thing he has never done is heal an amputee. He has, allegedly, cured the blind, lame, deaf, mad, leprous, etc. He is credited with healing all things. He must be aware of amputees. Why, in all the years he has been around, has he never given one their limb back?

There must have been amputees of all faiths and levels of faith. There must have been prayers to heal amputees from people of all faiths and levels of faith. Yet, nothing. Nothing at all.

Could it be possible that it is easy to lie about whether you were blind, lame, deaf, mad, leprous, etc. but to lie about being an amputee is almost impossible?

I am reminded of Monty Python and The Holy Grail in which a peasant (John Cleese) claims to have been turned into a newt. Suddenly there is silence and all the other peasants all look at him... "I got better."

To claim a cure for an amputee is to jump the shark. Even the most fanatical theist has to draw a line somewhere.
You should look into the [wiki]Miracle of Lanciano[/wiki]. It is one of the many proof that God doesn't need someone to lie about the miracle as you proposed.
Also "Why, in all the years he has been around, has he never given one their limb back?" The reason is the same I gave to answer this post : God choose to follow his laws. Nothing is lost, nothing is created.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on April 10, 2014, 05:58:59 PM
No. I don't see when does he violate his laws?
Resurrection of the dead seems to be one of those.
"Thou shalt not kill"
Ten plagues of Egypt.
Just a few possible examples.
The ten plagues of Egypt comes from the Old testament. Do you believe that it actually happened? (I don't)
For resurrecting the dead, I can see already how some people from only 50 years ago would think that we resurrected some of our sick. Maybe one day we will find out how Jesus did it.

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Well how do you imagine god to accomplish the feat?

We (humans) can do it with fingers... so, advanced science? I'm not sure I understand your question thou.
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How do you go about measuring 'degrees of miracles'?  Is miracle synonymous with 'unlikely event that results in a positive outcome'?
Some people say that surviving a crash is a miracle or that he got the shot in basketball was also a miracle. I don't see those 2 miracles at the same degree, do you?

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Do you think ending world hunger is higher or lower on god's Priority List of Things to Help Humanity (whom I so love and care about) Out With?
Some other things are more important to us (so, to Him as well) than world hunger. What I'm saying that God chose to respect our freedom, even if it destroys us.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: jdawg70 on April 10, 2014, 10:17:45 PM
You should look into the [wiki]Miracle of Lanciano[/wiki]. It is one of the many proof that God doesn't need someone to lie about the miracle as you proposed.
Also "Why, in all the years he has been around, has he never given one their limb back?" The reason is the same I gave to answer this post : God choose to follow his laws. Nothing is lost, nothing is created.

Protip: Use more filler words in between your blatant contradictions.  It will obscure it more from casual purview and increase the odds of it being overlooked.

For example, if you are going to propose something like {insert miracle containing clear or at least extraordinarily likely violations of known laws of physics} and then proclaim that 'god choose to follow his laws' (earlier indicating things like 'laws of physics' as some of those laws that he will follow) as some kind of an answer, you should put maybe something from here:
http://www.elsewhere.org/pomo/

in between so that, by the time the reader gets to the contradiction, they'll have forgotten about the first part.

A winner is you!
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: hickdive on April 11, 2014, 02:32:01 AM
I believe he can heal amputees but he wants to follow his laws. Nothing is lost, nothing is created. If a miracle where to happen it would be him reattaching the limb to the amputee, not creating a new one out of thin air.

But time, space, light, the earth, the sky, animals, and humans can be created out of nothing (as per genesis in the bible) without violating his own laws?
For that to be true, the Genesis book must be and historical book. Why would think that Genesis is an historical book? (I don't)

Can you tell me which books in the bible are historical and what criteria you have used to determine that they are?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Graybeard on April 12, 2014, 02:43:22 PM
You should look into the [wiki]Miracle of Lanciano[/wiki].
I have done
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It is one of the many proof that God doesn't need someone to lie about the miracle as you proposed.
It is lie from start to finish.
The point is you are so gullible that you believe it is true! Even the start of the story is obviously a lie.

Why are you tricked by an old lie?

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Also "Why, in all the years he has been around, has he never given one their limb back?" The reason is the same I gave to answer this post : God choose to follow his laws. Nothing is lost, nothing is created.
Hello, that is not an answer. If you write than in an examination you would get "Nul points".

No. The answer is obvious. He doesn't do it because he is not there.

Nobody claims he does it, because they would quickly be proven liars.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Anfauglir on April 17, 2014, 02:38:27 AM
I believe he can heal amputees but he wants to follow his laws. Nothing is lost, nothing is created.
So we can discount any alleged "miracle" where god causes material to appear from nothing. ......

Not at all. Miracles are, sometime, things that happens (or happened) that science could not explain. It does not mean that we won't be able to explain it in the future nor that it breaks the laws of physics.

Fine.  Then your original statement has no basis, because I can just as well say that we may find in future that amputee healing DOES follow a law - we just haven't found it yet.  You can't have it both ways.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 02:37:05 PM
Fine.  Then your original statement has no basis, because I can just as well say that we may find in future that amputee healing DOES follow a law - we just haven't found it yet.  You can't have it both ways.

I don't think that discussions work the way you are using it.
Using what might happen in the future can't be accepted as a counter argument.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 02:45:00 PM
You should look into the [wiki]Miracle of Lanciano[/wiki].
I have done
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It is one of the many proof that God doesn't need someone to lie about the miracle as you proposed.
It is lie from start to finish.
The point is you are so gullible that you believe it is true! Even the start of the story is obviously a lie.

Why are you tricked by an old lie?

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Also "Why, in all the years he has been around, has he never given one their limb back?" The reason is the same I gave to answer this post : God choose to follow his laws. Nothing is lost, nothing is created.
Hello, that is not an answer. If you write than in an examination you would get "Nul points".

No. The answer is obvious. He doesn't do it because he is not there.

Nobody claims he does it, because they would quickly be proven liars.
Could you help me with some support to your counter argument?
From what it can read it is just. "You are wrong! because I am right!"
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on May 10, 2014, 03:09:16 PM
I believe he can heal amputees but he wants to follow his laws. Nothing is lost, nothing is created. If a miracle where to happen it would be him reattaching the limb to the amputee, not creating a new one out of thin air.

Let me see. He won't do it, but you know how he would if he did. And you know what he wouldn't do. You seem a bit more privy to this information that most people. Why is that?

As long as you know so much, why are his laws more important that the missing arm of a child or a mother or friend? He made 'em, he can break them. But he prefers that people, both innocent and guilty, suffer both prolonged agony and being crippled, just because his laws are important? Didn't he see this coming?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 03:52:13 PM
Let me see. He won't do it, but you know how he would if he did. And you know what he wouldn't do. You seem a bit more privy to this information that most people. Why is that?
As long as you know so much, why are his laws more important that the missing arm of a child or a mother or friend? He made 'em, he can break them. But he prefers that people, both innocent and guilty, suffer both prolonged agony and being crippled, just because his laws are important? Didn't he see this coming?
It makes sense doesn't it? I use logic to be "privy".
For the rest, maybe, and that's just speculation because I am not Him, the world as we know it would end if he went against the laws of physics. Maybe God chose to let Billions live for the price of one people to live without a limb. We don't know what would happen if a limb magically reappeared, it seems it never happen before. One thing is sure, If God does something miraculous it will be in the interest of humanity, not against it.
I know of some people (http://micahbooks.com/human-experimentation-33.html) who wanted to go against the law of physics and killed many.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on May 10, 2014, 04:14:13 PM
Let me see. He won't do it, but you know how he would if he did. And you know what he wouldn't do. You seem a bit more privy to this information that most people. Why is that?
As long as you know so much, why are his laws more important that the missing arm of a child or a mother or friend? He made 'em, he can break them. But he prefers that people, both innocent and guilty, suffer both prolonged agony and being crippled, just because his laws are important? Didn't he see this coming?
It makes sense doesn't it? I use logic to be "privy".
For the rest, maybe, and that's just speculation because I am not Him, the world as we know it would end if he went against the laws of physics. Maybe God chose to let Billions live for the price of one people to live without a limb. We don't know what would happen if a limb magically reappeared, it seems it never happen before. One thing is sure, If God does something miraculous it will be in the interest of humanity, not against it.
I know of some people (http://micahbooks.com/human-experimentation-33.html) who wanted to go against the law of physics and killed many.

I'm not quite sure why guessing qualifies as logic, but for the religious I guess that's par for the course. Since you have nothing real to work with, you have to adjust. I understand.

As usual, since you know you're right, obviously the rest of us are wrong, and your only job is to figure out how to convince us of how wrong we are. To do that, you use your logic to tell you to sound real stupid, in hopes that we too are stupid, so we call all be impressed by how similar you are to us.

Happily, few of us here are underqualified enough to convert.

Its funny that you want us to ask questions when you would never do that yourself. You'll say otherwise, but you don't dare question your own beliefs because, as with all believers, truth is never the issue when it might get in the way of what you hope is real. What you need to be real. Because you, like most believers, probably couldn't handle reality if you knew more about it. Well, you could, but you prefer pretending to have answers over appreciating the mystery.

There is no god. Of any flavor. Get over it.

How do I know? By using logic. A real god wouldn't put together a religion that attracted only fools.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 05:00:36 PM
As usual, since you know you're right, obviously the rest of us are wrong, and your only job is to figure out how to convince us of how wrong we are.
No, I am here to answer your question in a manner that the only way you could counter argument me is by insulting me or slapping on the table and say "You are wrong! Because I am right!" or any version of that threat.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on May 10, 2014, 06:44:18 PM
As usual, since you know you're right, obviously the rest of us are wrong, and your only job is to figure out how to convince us of how wrong we are.
No, I am here to answer your question in a manner that the only way you could counter argument me is by insulting me or slapping on the table and say "You are wrong! Because I am right!" or any version of that threat.

No, you're here saying you are right in exactly the same manner I am saying I am right. Your "civility" is maddening because you are only talking at us, not to us. You standing assumption that we have any questions for you in the first place shows us where your ego is, and your refusal to apply the standards you ask of us to yourself irritates the locals.

If you look closely, you'll see that your many posts have a yet to convert a single person. There is a reason for that. You've got nothing, and you're not very good when it comes to talking about it.

Outside of this subject, you are presumably an intelligent person. Its too bad you've let your need to believe get in the way of your life. And ours.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 06:48:53 PM
You standing assumption that we have any questions for you in the first place shows us where your ego is
Then tell me why did I create this thread. What triggered the need to create a new thread if it's not one question that has been asked to me (by epidemic)?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Defiance on May 10, 2014, 07:35:27 PM
Just a quick heads up to Luk.

He is simply saying "Yes, he exists" for the sake of the argument.

He is an atheist; don't make the mistake of telling him "Yeah so now you believe in God."
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 10, 2014, 07:46:29 PM
I believe he can heal amputees but he wants to follow his laws. Nothing is lost, nothing is created. If a miracle where to happen it would be him reattaching the limb to the amputee, not creating a new one out of thin air.

You said God wants to "follow his laws" (presumably meaning the physical laws of the universe which you believe he created). This would mean that, according to your belief, this God thing does not do miracles of any kind (including those in the bible). How then can you separate superstition from your belief in the divinity or "divine inspiration" of the bible? Doesn't it seem to you just a bit convenient for Christians to argue that their God no longer does miracles? What if I came to your door and told you I had a magic potion that would cure all of your sicknesses, but when you asked me for evidence I just said, "Well, I can't give that right now. But I will once you pay me!" What would be your response to an extraordinary claim with no demonstrable extraordinary evidence? What should be your response to such claims?

If this deity you believe in does not manifest in the physical world whatsoever, then how is this in any way different from an imaginary deity not existing at all?

Just look at the rationalizing that has to take place in order to continue believing this stuff. There is no demonstrable evidence of a deity named "Yahweh" (just claims in old books). There are no manifestations of this being anywhere (including the deity allegedly healing anyone). There are no confirmed demonstrable experiences that can be reliably tied to this deity. And there are many sound reasons (and examples) for thinking that people are mistaken, delusional, or intellectually dishonest when making supernatural claims. Why then would you want to rest your entire life on such hear-say?

The simplest and most rational explanation as to why this "loving God" does not heal amputees is that this "God" is not real.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 07:54:55 PM
This would mean that, according to your belief, this God thing does not do miracles of any kind (including those in the bible).
No it does not mean that. Miracles happen, even today.
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Doesn't it seem to you just a bit convenient for Christians to argue that their God no longer does miracles?

Yes and I'm not one of those Christians who argue that God no longer does miracles.
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If this deity you believe in does not manifest in the physical world whatsoever, then how is this in any way different from the deity not existing at all?

He does manifest in the physical world.
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The simplest and most rational explanation as to why God does not heal amputees is that this "God" is imaginary.
This is like saying that I don't fly because I am imaginary.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 10, 2014, 08:04:11 PM
No it does not mean that. Miracles happen, even today.

And you evidence is...?

Yes and I'm not one of those Christians who argue that God no longer does miracles.

He does manifest in the physical world.

Evidence please...

This is like saying that I don't fly because I am imaginary.

No it is not. We have millions of examples of people flying (by use of airplanes), which are demonstrable and can be confirmed today. Can you point to ONE confirmed example (not just a claim but a real example) of a "God" healing an amputee (as is alleged in the bible) which can be confirmed today, like we can with people flying?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 08:20:44 PM
No it does not mean that. Miracles happen, even today.

And you evidence is...?

Yes and I'm not one of those Christians who argue that God no longer does miracles.

He does manifest in the physical world.

Evidence please...

This is like saying that I don't fly because I am imaginary.

No it is not. We have millions of examples of people flying (by use of airplanes), which are demonstrable and can be confirmed today. Can you point to ONE confirmed example (not just a claim but a real example) of a "God" healing an amputee (as is alleged in the bible) which can be confirmed today, like we can with people flying?
There are more than 3000 saints and each of them need at least 2 acknowledge miracles.[1]
"panels of doctors and theologians, cardinals and bishops" are used for this declaration of posthumous miracle.[2]
 1. "In order to beatify a candidate, it must be shown that the person is responsible for a posthumous miracle." ; "In order for the candidate to be considered a saint, there must be proof of a second posthumous miracle." - How does someone become a saint? (http://people.howstuffworks.com/question6191.htm)
 2. [wiki]Congregation for the Causes of Saints[/wiki]
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 10, 2014, 08:26:45 PM
There are more than 3000 saints and each of them need at least 2 acknowledge miracles.[1]
"panels of doctors and theologians, cardinals and bishops" are used for this declaration of posthumous miracle.[2]
 1. "In order to beatify a candidate, it must be shown that the person is responsible for a posthumous miracle." ; "In order for the candidate to be considered a saint, there must be proof of a second posthumous miracle." - How does someone become a saint? (http://people.howstuffworks.com/question6191.htm)
 2. [wiki]Congregation for the Causes of Saints[/wiki]

Huh? I ask for evidence and you give more claims?? You can't be serious. If I said I had an invisible pet magic fire breathing dragon in my back yard, you might (like I'm doing) ask for evidence. But then, if my answer was, "A panel of believers came together and said it was true that I have an invisible pet fire breathing dragon" would that be sufficient?? Just because a group of people get together and decide to say, "We attribute this unexplained happening as a miracle!!" doesn't mean it was a miracle. That's just being gullible.

So I ask for evidence and you come back with "because these people said so"??

Do you even know what evidence is? If so, provide it - not hear-say.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 08:32:45 PM
If I said I had an invisible pet magic fire breathing dragon in my back yard, you might (like I'm doing) ask for evidence. But then, if my answer was, "A panel of believers came together and said it was true that I have an invisible pet fire breathing dragon" would that be sufficient??
Yes, depending on what the panel is made of and how they did their work.
Quote

Do you even know what evidence is? If so, provide it - not hear-say.
These are professional people. They are scientists who devoted their lives to their work and you tell them that they are "just believers" like if their life were resumed to their faith? Not cool.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 10, 2014, 08:39:16 PM
If I said I had an invisible pet magic fire breathing dragon in my back yard, you might (like I'm doing) ask for evidence. But then, if my answer was, "A panel of believers came together and said it was true that I have an invisible pet fire breathing dragon" would that be sufficient??
Yes, depending on what the panel is made of and how they did their work.


So belief for you is just about how many people say so? It isn't about actually assessing the evidence for yourself? You'd rather have someone else (or a group of someone elses) do your thinking and decision making for you when it comes to extraordinary claims?

These are professional people. They are scientists who devoted their lives to their work and you tell them that they are "just believers" like if their life were resumed to their faith? Not cool.

I don't care what you personally SAY about said people (who you clearly do not know). The fact is, you are basing your beliefs in miracles upon assumptions and HEAR-SAY. A group of people got together and said, "It's a confirmed miracle!" and you jumped at it (instead of actually practicing the same kind of skepticism you would if a fast talking salesman was standing at your door making extraordinary claims and asking for money or life devotion).
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 08:44:05 PM
If I said I had an invisible pet magic fire breathing dragon in my back yard, you might (like I'm doing) ask for evidence. But then, if my answer was, "A panel of believers came together and said it was true that I have an invisible pet fire breathing dragon" would that be sufficient??
Yes, depending on what the panel is made of and how they did their work.


So belief for you is just about how many people say so? It isn't about actually assessing the evidence for yourself? You'd rather have someone else (or a group of someone elses) do your thinking and decision making for you when it comes to extraordinary claims?

These are professional people. They are scientists who devoted their lives to their work and you tell them that they are "just believers" like if their life were resumed to their faith? Not cool.

I don't care what you personally SAY about said people (who you clearly do not know). The fact is, you are basing your beliefs in miracles upon assumptions and HEAR-SAY.
And YOU don't? Did you go to space? How do you know that the sun evolves around the earth? Are you are basing your beliefs in science upon assumptions and HEAR-SAY? Belief for you is just about how many people say so? It isn't about actually assessing the evidence for yourself? You'd rather have someone else (or a group of someone elses) do your thinking and decision making for you when it comes to claims?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 10, 2014, 08:47:04 PM
If I said I had an invisible pet magic fire breathing dragon in my back yard, you might (like I'm doing) ask for evidence. But then, if my answer was, "A panel of believers came together and said it was true that I have an invisible pet fire breathing dragon" would that be sufficient??
Yes, depending on what the panel is made of and how they did their work.


So belief for you is just about how many people say so? It isn't about actually assessing the evidence for yourself? You'd rather have someone else (or a group of someone elses) do your thinking and decision making for you when it comes to extraordinary claims?

These are professional people. They are scientists who devoted their lives to their work and you tell them that they are "just believers" like if their life were resumed to their faith? Not cool.

I don't care what you personally SAY about said people (who you clearly do not know). The fact is, you are basing your beliefs in miracles upon assumptions and HEAR-SAY.
And YOU don't? Did you go to space? How do you know that the sun evolves around the earth? Are you are basing your beliefs in science upon assumptions and HEAR-SAY?

This is called a false analogy. The fact that the earth revolves around the sun and that people have been to space is DEMONSTRABLE. Furthermore, these are not extraordinary claims or appeals to the supernatural or magic.

Again, I asked you for actual evidence of these alleged "miracles" and you came back with hear-say (which is not evidence). Where is your intellectual integrity Christian?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 08:49:01 PM
If I said I had an invisible pet magic fire breathing dragon in my back yard, you might (like I'm doing) ask for evidence. But then, if my answer was, "A panel of believers came together and said it was true that I have an invisible pet fire breathing dragon" would that be sufficient??
Yes, depending on what the panel is made of and how they did their work.


So belief for you is just about how many people say so? It isn't about actually assessing the evidence for yourself? You'd rather have someone else (or a group of someone elses) do your thinking and decision making for you when it comes to extraordinary claims?

These are professional people. They are scientists who devoted their lives to their work and you tell them that they are "just believers" like if their life were resumed to their faith? Not cool.

I don't care what you personally SAY about said people (who you clearly do not know). The fact is, you are basing your beliefs in miracles upon assumptions and HEAR-SAY.
And YOU don't? Did you go to space? How do you know that the sun evolves around the earth? Are you are basing your beliefs in science upon assumptions and HEAR-SAY?

This is called a false analogy. The fact that the earth revolves around the sun and that people have been to space is DEMONSTRABLE. Furthermore, these are not extraordinary claims or appeals to the supernatural or magic.

Again, I asked you for actual evidence of these alleged "miracles" and you came back with hear-say (which is not evidence). Where is your intellectual integrity Christian?
I gave you the exact same type of evidence you would gave me if I asked you about the sun and the earth. What more do you want?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 10, 2014, 08:56:41 PM

 I gave you the exact same type of evidence you would gave me if I asked you about the sun and the earth. What more do you want?


This is actually 100% false, and more dishonesty. You are drawing a false analogy between claims to the supernatural and those which are not. Furthermore, you merely assume that the only way anyone can demonstrate that the earth revolves around the sun (or other such demonstrable scientific phenomena) is by quoting someone, which is false. So you are arguing irrationally on two accounts. We have pictures from space and space stations, video, extremely accurate mathematics with much explanatory power for making reliable and accurate predictions, independent peer reviewed journals, and independently tested and verified observations which conform to predictions and hypotheses. Please provide the actual evidence for your "miracles" that is anywhere near this.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Defiance on May 10, 2014, 09:01:47 PM
If I said I had an invisible pet magic fire breathing dragon in my back yard, you might (like I'm doing) ask for evidence. But then, if my answer was, "A panel of believers came together and said it was true that I have an invisible pet fire breathing dragon" would that be sufficient??
Yes, depending on what the panel is made of and how they did their work.


So belief for you is just about how many people say so? It isn't about actually assessing the evidence for yourself? You'd rather have someone else (or a group of someone elses) do your thinking and decision making for you when it comes to extraordinary claims?

These are professional people. They are scientists who devoted their lives to their work and you tell them that they are "just believers" like if their life were resumed to their faith? Not cool.

I don't care what you personally SAY about said people (who you clearly do not know). The fact is, you are basing your beliefs in miracles upon assumptions and HEAR-SAY.
And YOU don't? Did you go to space? How do you know that the sun evolves around the earth? Are you are basing your beliefs in science upon assumptions and HEAR-SAY?

This is called a false analogy. The fact that the earth revolves around the sun and that people have been to space is DEMONSTRABLE. Furthermore, these are not extraordinary claims or appeals to the supernatural or magic.

Again, I asked you for actual evidence of these alleged "miracles" and you came back with hear-say (which is not evidence). Where is your intellectual integrity Christian?
I gave you the exact same type of evidence you would gave me if I asked you about the sun and the earth. What more do you want?

HE can buy (Make even) his own telescope, instrumentation, and follow the operational definitions of people who claim to have said that the Earth revolves around the sun. He can make instruments that we will measure the movement of earth through space, and that will be in an orbit around the sun. Each. And. Every. Time.

His evidence can be gathered as observations and he can then tell everyone to make their own tools, make their own measurements and keep seeing for themselves. Over. And. Over.

The fact that Miracles are NOT consistent throws them under the lava because not everyone can see it for themselves.

EX: Some cancer patients are healed by God. Some die. God is supposed to love everyone equally, then why would he let one die? See that? One questions leads to 10 more, each that have no answers.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 10, 2014, 09:03:00 PM
Do people like luk lack some part of their own brain that tells them they are just talking nonsense .i don't get it.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 09:04:56 PM
We have pictures from space and space stations, video, extremely accurate mathematics with much explanatory power for making reliable and accurate predictions, independent peer reviewed journals, and independently tested and verified observations which conform to predictions and hypotheses. Please provide the actual evidence for your "miracles" that is anywhere near this.
I did! follow the links :) The panel does not use only believers work to assess a miracle, they also use : reliable and accurate predictions, independent peer reviewed journals, and independently tested and verified observations which conform to predictions and hypotheses. They are professionals! And you should give them the respect they deserve.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 10, 2014, 09:12:43 PM
We have pictures from space and space stations, video, extremely accurate mathematics with much explanatory power for making reliable and accurate predictions, independent peer reviewed journals, and independently tested and verified observations which conform to predictions and hypotheses. Please provide the actual evidence for your "miracles" that is anywhere near this.
I did! follow the links :) The panel does not use only believers work to assess a miracle, they also use : reliable and accurate predictions, independent peer reviewed journals, and independently tested and verified observations which conform to predictions and hypotheses. They are professionals! And you should give them the respect they deserve.

No, you didn't. I asked for evidence (such as the claim of a confirmed miracle and the actual evidence which is alleged to support it - just like could be done with the sun). And yet all you came back with was a Wiki article and a link from those who accept the claims (which rely upon arguments from ignorance/incredulity fallacies). I'm asking for evidence that can be verified just like one could verify the reality of the earth revolving around the sun for themselves. Extraordinary claims require evidence (not just hear-say). You should know that.

Please provide the actual reference documentation to a confirmed miracle.

EDIT: Btw, sick people getting better or rare events occurring (or even things not yet explained) are not sufficient to be deemed a confirmed "miracle". Those are just anecdotal arguments from ignorance. "I just can't see how it could have happened any other way than a miracle" is a textbook argument from incredulity fallacy - not evidence. People win the lottery all the time and it's rare - not evidence. People experience natural remission from cancer on rare occasion (not evidence of a miracle but ignorance). People experience close calls - nearly getting killed but don't (still not evidence of a miracle). You need actual evidence - such as a clear case where an amputee, or a person who was born with no limbs, magically grows back their limbs after receiving intercessory prayer.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 10, 2014, 09:14:10 PM
So when do they predict the next miracle to happen, what will it be and where. i will be there with a camera and post it to you tube.


can they create a miracle at will per a design specification like we can build a rocket to land a man or woman on the moon.
what hypothesis did they test, what page on what peer reviewed journal.


demonstrate just one miracle and this forum will close and every person on the planet will worship the cause of the miracle all other religions would cease.


back up your claims or you a breaking one of the 10 commandments ...by telling lies.


come clean man you are atm a fraud, not a theist.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 09:43:35 PM
So when do they predict the next miracle to happen, what will it be and where. i will be there with a camera and post it to you tube.
Please provide the actual reference documentation to a confirmed miracle.
You two. Can we agree that I got robbed by a guy and that I cannot predict when the next time someone will get robbed?
Can we agree that the following miracle happened and that I cannot predict exactly when the next will be.
I had a girlfriend. Her sister was sick (cancer, terminal phase) and the doctor told her there wasn't anything more they could do. She had to wait. One day, while I was at her parents house, she came and told us the story on how God cured her.
I guess you would want me to give you the papers from the doctors, but I can't (patient privilege and stuff). I don't have any relation to this family anymore anyway.
If you want links.
You can read on This miracle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bernadette_of_Lourdes#Exhumations)
Or Those one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lourdes_Medical_Bureau#Notable_cases)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Defiance on May 10, 2014, 09:51:34 PM
So when do they predict the next miracle to happen, what will it be and where. i will be there with a camera and post it to you tube.
Please provide the actual reference documentation to a confirmed miracle.
You two. Can we agree that I got robbed by a guy and that I cannot predict when the next time someone will get robbed?
Can we agree that the following miracle happened and that I cannot predict exactly when the next will be.
I had a girlfriend. Her sister was sick (cancer, terminal phase) and the doctor told her there wasn't anything more they could do. She had to wait. One day, while I was at her parents house, she came and told us the story on how God cured her.
I guess you would want me to give you the papers from the doctors, but I can't (patient privilege and stuff). I don't have any relation to this family anymore anyway.
If you want links.
You can read on This miracle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bernadette_of_Lourdes#Exhumations)
Or Those one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lourdes_Medical_Bureau#Notable_cases)
She was sick, and she was with Doctors. Where do we need God in this?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 10, 2014, 10:00:38 PM
Actually i am trained in medical radiation technology maintained teletherapy units, a PET scanner with it's own particle accelerator, prepared isotope drinks, calibrated gamma cameras and brachytherapy implants for years. saw a lot of treatments. cancers pretty much progressed as oncologists and radio therapists predicted.

i would like to see the ladies treatment plan thanks and i will assess it myself.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 10:10:09 PM
i would like to see the ladies treatment plan thanks and i will assess it myself.
I guessed that much and that is why I wrote:
I guess you would want me to give you the papers from the doctors, but I can't (patient privilege and stuff). I don't have any relation to this family anymore anyway.
And then went on with :
If you want links.
You can read on This miracle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bernadette_of_Lourdes#Exhumations)
Or Those one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lourdes_Medical_Bureau#Notable_cases)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 10:11:39 PM
She was sick, and she was with Doctors. Where do we need God in this?
The doctors could not cure her of her cancer. God could (and did).
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 10, 2014, 10:17:49 PM
Dude i seen many people die you can make whatever you want from the stats, the only thing that is true is that medical treatments puts the odds in your favour, prayer does nothing to progression of a cancer case and i want to slap the shit out of people like you who claim otherwise your kind are a menace. if prayer worked we would use it as a treatment tool you disgust me.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 10:50:59 PM
Dude i seen many people die you can make whatever you want from the stats, the only thing that is true is that medical treatments puts the odds in your favour, prayer does nothing to progression of a cancer case and i want to slap the shit out of people like you who claim otherwise your kind are a menace. if prayer worked we would use it as a treatment tool you disgust me.
Maybe you are not comprehending what a miracle is. It is not common. If it was, we wouldn't call it miracle we'd call it life. You might be not using prayer but I'm sure some of your colleague use it to help themselves and their patients. Try it yourself, look at the patients who pray and compare them to those who do not pray. Tell me if you see a difference in their remission speed.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 10, 2014, 10:52:44 PM

You two. Can we agree that I got robbed by a guy and that I cannot predict when the next time someone will get robbed?
Can we agree that the following miracle happened and that I cannot predict exactly when the next will be.
I had a girlfriend. Her sister was sick (cancer, terminal phase) and the doctor told her there wasn't anything more they could do. She had to wait. One day, while I was at her parents house, she came and told us the story on how God cured her.
I guess you would want me to give you the papers from the doctors, but I can't (patient privilege and stuff). I don't have any relation to this family anymore anyway.
If you want links.
You can read on This miracle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bernadette_of_Lourdes#Exhumations)
Or Those one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lourdes_Medical_Bureau#Notable_cases)

These are not evidences of miracles. They are anecdotal accounts of hear-say. "It was deemed by X person to be a miracle" is not evidence. It is you taking somebody else' word for claims to the supernatural. Are you bringing your A game here? You aren't even coming back with ordinary evidence - let alone extraordinary evidence which would justify believing a miracle occurred. These cases you keep posting are just placeholders for ignorance. "We personally can't explain how X thing happened, outside of our theology, so we're just going to say God did it." I'm sorry. That is just hypocrisy b/c you would not do that with other claims to the supernatural which contradict your theology and your presuppositions. When something cannot be explained sufficiently, then you should admit ignorance - instead of just asserting that your particular version of said deity did it, b/c that doesn't explain anything. It is an attempt to explain a mystery with an even bigger mystery.

You must not have read my previous response b/c I dealt with these kinds of anecdotes. We have lots of examples of people getting robbed. We do not have examples of confirmed "miracles" by some "God" thing. You keep trying to draw false analogies and it isn't working. And with the cancer thing, you do know that that door swings both ways, don't you? If you can use a particular case of a person suddenly and unexpectedly having a remission from cancer as evidence for a God, then I can use ALL examples of them NOT getting better (i.e. - them dying) as evidence AGAINST said deity. And in that case I win b/c I have more exmples of cancer patients dying. I'm sorry, you can't have your cake and eat it too. But see, rare events of people getting better from cancers (or other health problems) are not evidence of a miracle from a deity, anymore than they are evidence of magic pink unicorns, pixies, are lucky leprechauns. You are just using "miracle" or "God" in place of your own ignorance of what really happened.

Again, please provide the evidence of an actual miracle (not hear-say or anecdote). We're talking about a specific case of, say, an amputee magically growing their limb back.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 11:00:48 PM
Again, please provide the evidence of an actual miracle (not hear-say or anecdote). We're talking about a specific case of, say, an amputee magically growing their limb back.
Let me pick one. What about a "Tubercular peritonitis with complications for seven years, extreme emaciation and oscillating fever. Comatose when brought to Lourdes" person? She was cured. After praying God, not a magic pink unicorns, pixies or lucky leprechauns. God.
Now, I gave you the link to the report of the act. What else would you need?

Edit: I just read about the doctor who examined her : "Any doctors practicing in or visiting Lourdes may apply to become members of the Lourdes Medical Bureau. Additionally, nurses, physiotherapists, pharmacists and members of other allied health professions may apply to become members. Members are given (and invited to wear) a small but distinctive badge displaying a red cross on a white background surmounted by the word Credo ("I believe"). However, members of any religious affiliation or none are welcomed."
The Medical Bureau investigates the claim, by examining the patient, the casenotes, and any test results (which can include biopsies, X-rays, CT scans, blood test results, and so on). A full investigation requires that one of its members investigates every detail of the case in question, and immerses him/herself in the literature around that condition to ensure that up-to-date academic knowledge is applied to the decision. This investigator may also consult with other colleagues about the case.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 11:06:08 PM
For a cure to be recognised as medically inexplicable, certain facts require to be established:
The original diagnosis must be verified and confirmed beyond doubt
The diagnosis must be regarded as "incurable" with current means (although ongoing treatments do not disqualify the cure)
The cure must happen in association with a visit to Lourdes, typically while in Lourdes or in the vicinity of the shrine itself (although drinking or bathing in the water are not required)
The cure must be immediate (rapid resolution of symptoms and signs of the illness)
The cure must be complete (with no residual impairment or deficit)
The cure must be permanent (with no recurrence)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 10, 2014, 11:10:47 PM
Dude i seen many people die you can make whatever you want from the stats, the only thing that is true is that medical treatments puts the odds in your favour, prayer does nothing to progression of a cancer case and i want to slap the shit out of people like you who claim otherwise your kind are a menace. if prayer worked we would use it as a treatment tool you disgust me.
Maybe you are not comprehending what a miracle is. It is not common. If it was, we wouldn't call it miracle we'd call it life. You might be not using prayer but I'm sure some of your colleague use it to help themselves and their patients. Try it yourself, look at the patients who pray and compare them to those who do not pray. Tell me if you see a difference in their remission speed.

So, a miracle for you is just a rare event? That's it? If that's the case then there is no distinction between a miracle and a non-miracle - and thus the word has absolutely no meaning.

There is actually no significant difference whatsoever in scientific studies regarding prayer. People who received intercessory prayer actually did worse than those who received none, and in other cases did no better. The studies on prayer show absolutely no significance whatsoever in terms of people getting better. Those who received prayer didn't do any better. Now you can believe that prayer works, but you do so in spite of the evidence, not because of it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/12082681/ns/health-heart_health/t/power-prayer-flunks-unusual-test/#.U273iPldUgw
http://health.howstuffworks.com/wellness/natural-medicine/alternative/prayer-healing1.htm

So much for this "loving" God doing anything. It's Santa Claus for grown ups.

Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 10, 2014, 11:16:20 PM
For a cure to be recognised as medically inexplicable, certain facts require to be established:
The original diagnosis must be verified and confirmed beyond doubt
The diagnosis must be regarded as "incurable" with current means (although ongoing treatments do not disqualify the cure)
The cure must happen in association with a visit to Lourdes, typically while in Lourdes or in the vicinity of the shrine itself (although drinking or bathing in the water are not required)
The cure must be immediate (rapid resolution of symptoms and signs of the illness)
The cure must be complete (with no residual impairment or deficit)
The cure must be permanent (with no recurrence)

Listen to yourself. You just so flippantly said the key word and yet skipped over it without even realizing what you were saying. INEXPLICABLE!

When something is inexplicable (meaning you don't know what happened), then you don't get to try to explain it by appealing to a "miracle" - because it is an argument from ignorance and you are contradicting yourself (saying on one hand that it's explainable, but then on the other hand trying to claim you've explained it). See this double standard you have?? 
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 11:17:56 PM
So, a miracle for you is just a rare event? That's it? If that's the case then there is no distinction between a miracle and a non-miracle - and thus the word has absolutely no meaning.
No that's not it.
It must follow rules :
For a cure to be recognised as medically inexplicable, certain facts require to be established:
The original diagnosis must be verified and confirmed beyond doubt
The diagnosis must be regarded as "incurable" with current means (although ongoing treatments do not disqualify the cure)
The cure must happen in association with a visit to Lourdes, typically while in Lourdes or in the vicinity of the shrine itself (although drinking or bathing in the water are not required)
The cure must be immediate (rapid resolution of symptoms and signs of the illness)
The cure must be complete (with no residual impairment or deficit)
The cure must be permanent (with no recurrence)
PLUS : CMIL is not entitled to pronounce a cure "miraculous"; this can only be done by the Church
Means that the church make sure that it was indeed God.
She was cured. After praying God, not a magic pink unicorns, pixies or lucky leprechauns. God.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 10, 2014, 11:19:03 PM
How does god choose the miraclee?

Yr comments telling me to gopray makes me want to kick your dumb ass.


can't link but actual real experiments have been done.  the results are no different to no treatment ie random chance.


funny actual medical treatment does give a statistically significant improvement.


lourdes is an economic bonanza like all the other towns clamouring for saint hood so they can line their pockets by robbing the desperate.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 11:20:24 PM
Listen to yourself. You just so flippantly said the key word and yet skipped over it without even realizing what you were saying. INEXPLICABLE!

When something is inexplicable (meaning you don't know what happened), then you don't get to try to explain it by appealing to a "miracle" - because it is an argument from ignorance and you are contradicting yourself (saying on one hand that it's explainable, but then on the other hand trying to claim you've explained it). See this double standard you have?? 
Who is skipping words now? The article is clear : MEDICALLY inexplicable
There, you see? no more double standard.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 11:22:01 PM
How does god choose the miraclee?

Yr comments telling me to gopray makes me want to kick your dumb ass.


can't link but actual real experiments have been done.  the results are no different to no treatment ie random chance.


funny actual medical treatment does give a statistically significant improvement.


lourdes is an economic bonanza like all the other towns clamouring for saint hood so they can line their pockets by robbing the desperate.
said the guy who, when cornered in a discussion, threaten physically the other and insult him. Bravo!
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on May 10, 2014, 11:26:34 PM
You standing assumption that we have any questions for you in the first place shows us where your ego is
Then tell me why did I create this thread. What triggered the need to create a new thread if it's not one question that has been asked to me (by epidemic)?

Now that you've proven my point by taking yourself too seriously, all we can do now is sit around watch.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 10, 2014, 11:27:59 PM
PLUS : CMIL is not entitled to pronounce a cure "miraculous"; this can only be done by the Church
Means that the church make sure that it was indeed God.

Ah, so again you just take their word for it. You have no independent evidence by which to demonstrate a miracle has occurred. You just have hear-say. And you believe in these supernatural claims because you are practicing confirmation bias. You have a religious pre-commitment. Why pretend that your claims are on equal footing with demonstrable science when they are not?

Again, a salesman comes to your door and asks you to hand over lots of money for an alleged magic potion - and the only thing he's willing to give you is "because my company said so." Are you buying?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 10, 2014, 11:30:11 PM
Oh it was not a threat it is a deep desire. so back to your hypothesis based testing of miracles that are peer reviewed, did i miss the link? what journal was it in?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 10, 2014, 11:32:29 PM
Listen to yourself. You just so flippantly said the key word and yet skipped over it without even realizing what you were saying. INEXPLICABLE!

When something is inexplicable (meaning you don't know what happened), then you don't get to try to explain it by appealing to a "miracle" - because it is an argument from ignorance and you are contradicting yourself (saying on one hand that it's explainable, but then on the other hand trying to claim you've explained it). See this double standard you have?? 
Who is skipping words now? The article is clear : MEDICALLY inexplicable
There, you see? no more double standard.

This doesn't get you out of the problem, sorry. If something is medically inexplicable it doesn't give you (or anyone else) free license to claim magic. Again, you are trying to use "miracle" as a placeholder for your own ignorance. It's called The Argument From Incredulity Fallacy. Look it up because that is what you are doing and it is irrational. Natural remissions happen all the time. Rare occurrences happen all the time. This does not make them miracles. What it means is that we have not yet been able to explain them.

By your whack thinking, anytime we can't solve a murder right away we should jump to the supernatural in explaining it. FAIL.

http://infidels.org/library/modern/joe_nickell/miracles.html
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 11:35:40 PM
Again, a salesman comes to your door and asks you to hand over lots of money for an alleged magic potion - and the only thing he's willing to give you is "because my company said so." Are you buying?
Isn't that what you do with any bank?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 11:38:16 PM
Natural remissions happen all the time. Rare occurrences happen all the time. This does not make them miracles. What it means is that we have not yet been able to explain them.
I'm not telling you that you are wrong. If these natural remissions were not the result of prayer you would totally be right. But they are the result of prayer...that's why they are miracles.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 10, 2014, 11:41:37 PM
Again, a salesman comes to your door and asks you to hand over lots of money for an alleged magic potion - and the only thing he's willing to give you is "because my company said so." Are you buying?
Isn't that what you do with any bank?

Nope. I said magic potion. Are you going to keep obfuscating or actually address the points honestly?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 10, 2014, 11:44:42 PM
Natural remissions happen all the time. Rare occurrences happen all the time. This does not make them miracles. What it means is that we have not yet been able to explain them.
I'm not telling you that you are wrong. If these natural remissions were not the result of prayer you would totally be right. But they are the result of prayer...that's why they are miracles.

But you don't know they are "the result of prayer". You are guessing - and being gullible regarding these supernatural claims. Correlation does not equal causation. You should know that. Again, you are trying to have your cake and eat it too. It doesn't work. Just because two events happen one after the other it does not mean that one events caused the other. Someone can tap their feet together three times before they play the lottery and claim that their tapping made them win. But they would be making your same mistake. This is yet another irrational fallacy you are trying to prop up but it fails. You need to show a direct connection, not just a correlation.


http://www.miraclesceptic.com/lourdes.html#_FALSE_LOURDES_MIRACLES (http://www.miraclesceptic.com/lourdes.html#_FALSE_LOURDES_MIRACLES)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 11:48:29 PM
Again, a salesman comes to your door and asks you to hand over lots of money for an alleged magic potion - and the only thing he's willing to give you is "because my company said so." Are you buying?
Isn't that what you do with any bank?
Nope. I said magic potion. Are you going to keep obfuscating or actually address the points honestly?
I know you said magic potion and salesman and door.
My question is related to a bank. They tell you your money is secure and you trust them. You don't go a visit their vault or ask for the specs of their buildings or...etc. They basically tells you "give us your money" and you say yes.
so again, you just take their word for it. You have no independent evidence by which to demonstrate they can hold your money safely. You just have hear-say. And you believe in these claims because you are practicing confirmation bias. You have a pre-commitment.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 10, 2014, 11:49:45 PM
Median do you believe people when they tell you they were lucky? Do you believe in luck?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 10, 2014, 11:56:15 PM

My question is related to a bank. They tell you your money is secure and you trust them. You don't go a visit their vault or ask for the specs of their buildings or...etc. They basically tells you "give us your money" and you say yes.
so again, you just take their word for it. You have no independent evidence by which to demonstrate they can hold your money safely. You just have hear-say. And you believe in these claims because you are practicing confirmation bias. You have a pre-commitment.


No I do not just "take their word for it". You are, once again, drawing a false analogy between claims of the supernatural and claims that are not supernatural (as well as the false thinking that extraordinary non-demonstrable claims are on the same footing as ordinary demonstrable ones). You are engaging in irrational reasoning, and since I've already pointed it out at least twice now you are now practicing intellectual dishonesty.

We have tested and verified, and repeatable and demonstrable examples of the operation of banks (not pre-commitment - sorry!). I have been with my independently demonstrable bank (which are really just people) for over 20 years. I have actual demonstrable and sound repeatable physical evidence of the people who hold my funds at the bank and will render it to me upon my will. You do not have this with your alleged supernatural invisible "God". So once again, you are attempting to draw a false analogy (a logical fallacy).
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 11, 2014, 12:18:28 AM
If you want links.
You can read on This miracle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bernadette_of_Lourdes#Exhumations)
Or Those one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lourdes_Medical_Bureau#Notable_cases)

I don't think you realize how desperate you are being. If God is healing people by prayer, then the effects should be much more obvious than this.

MS can be cured when your immune system decides to change. Why MS occurs is not even known, so having is disappear is not really a miracle. It could be because you had an antibiotic that changed your bowel flora.
http://www.healthline.com/health-news/ms-bacteria-identified-as-possible-environmental-trigger-for-ms-102313

In the case of cancer, modern treatments are using your immune system to fight it. Your immune system can, at any time, decide to get rid of the cancer. The cancer is mutating all the time, so it can suddenly enter a phase when your immune system detects it.

In order to have a proof, you need to have a disease where the progress of the disease is definitely known. I don't know why Eh is currently shooting himself in the foot by saying that cancer is predictable.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 11, 2014, 12:35:00 AM
If you want links.
You can read on This miracle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bernadette_of_Lourdes#Exhumations)
Or Those one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lourdes_Medical_Bureau#Notable_cases)

I don't think you realize how desperate you are being. If God is healing people by prayer, then the effects should be much more obvious than this.

MS can be cured when your immune system decides to change. Why MS occurs is not even known, so having is disappear is not really a miracle. It could be because you had an antibiotic that changed your bowel flora.
http://www.healthline.com/health-news/ms-bacteria-identified-as-possible-environmental-trigger-for-ms-102313

In the case of cancer, modern treatments are using your immune system to fight it. Your immune system can, at any time, decide to get rid of the cancer. The cancer is mutating all the time, so it can suddenly enter a phase when your immune system detects it.

In order to have a proof, you need to have a disease where the progress of the disease is definitely known. I don't know why Eh is currently shooting himself in the foot by saying that cancer is predictable.

Do you believe people when they tell you they were lucky? Do you believe in luck?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 11, 2014, 12:52:25 AM
Do you believe people when they tell you they were lucky? Do you believe in luck?

Not in an objective sense. Luck exists in a subjective sense, when we can't evaluate how the phenomena balances over a population which is looking for cases of "luck".

In the case of spontaneous remission of cancer, we almost have no figures on the rate, because doctors hate it, and they hate listening to stories about how their patient changed their hair style and took up acupuncture and ate indian foods. So, the cases are never published.
This is an alternative practitioner complaining about how doctors just don't want to know:
http://noetic.org/noetic/issue-seventeen-december/unexpected-remission/

http://dartmed.dartmouth.edu/spring09/html/disc_remission.php

In order to prove that God was involved with remission, you have to show it's a different rate for different cultures who don't pray to God. If I got cancer, there would be someone praying for me, even though I'm an atheist. If I got better, that person would take credit for it.

There is weird shit in this world, but also a heap of people who just make stuff up and do hoaxes, because it's the easiest way to get loads of attention. God has to come out from behind "luck" and 1/100,000 cancer remission rates. In order to prove your sectarian Jesus/trinity claims, the rates need to be a lot bigger, and better reported, or you may well be barking up the wrong tree.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 11, 2014, 01:06:30 AM
Hom the progression of the majority of cancers is to a large extent predictable . that's how treatments are planned. do you think planning is done randomly like a scatter gun?

every treatment plan is individual.


is it exact and perfect? Hell no but you don't want to kill the person to kill the cancer.


Teletherapy beams are precise to fractions of a millimetre and dose is delivered thru a non homogeneous body taking annoying things like spinal chord into account to miraculous levels of precision ...but it ain't a miracle.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 11, 2014, 01:15:07 AM
Just to be clear and honest (no judgement or insults, please, we have enough of that)
What exactly are you expecting from me? Discussion while. What do you want to discuss?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 11, 2014, 01:20:33 AM
Just to be clear and honest (no judgement or insults, please, we have enough of that)
What exactly are you expecting from me? Discussion while. What do you want to discuss?

I want you to actually backup your claims that you made earlier with actual demonstrable evidence - not hear-say, not anecdote, not obfuscation, not vague notions which are nowhere near extraordinary, but clear independently verifiable evidence (just like could be done with planetary motion or my bank). 
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 11, 2014, 01:24:39 AM
I just want you to face reality.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 11, 2014, 01:25:54 AM
I want you to actually backup your claims that you made earlier with actual demonstrable evidence - not hear-say, not anecdote, not obfuscation, not vague notions which are nowhere near extraordinary, but clear independently verifiable evidence (just like could be done with planetary motion or my bank). 
I claim many things. Witch one do you want me to back up?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 11, 2014, 01:29:12 AM
I just want you to face reality.
What will make you say "Ok, now he faces reality"?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 11, 2014, 01:30:21 AM
I claim many things. Witch one do you want me to back up?

Miracles happen, even today.
He [God] does manifest in the physical world.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 11, 2014, 01:36:42 AM
Ok. Miracles are the manifestation of God power in the physical word. So what you want for me is backing up my answer "Miracles happen, even today.
The links and the personal testimony I gave you are not enough to back my claim?
If so :
Do you think that people can get lucky? even today?
If possible could you back up your answer?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 11, 2014, 01:45:25 AM
When the mask drops and the scales fall from your eyes you won't need me to say anything.  in the meantime we are all trying to help you. consider us angels if you will but we are 100% human.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 11, 2014, 01:49:29 AM
When the mask drops and the scales fall from your eyes you won't need me to say anything.  in the meantime we are all trying to help you. consider us angels if you will but we are 100% human.
In this particular case. What are you expecting ME to say?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on May 11, 2014, 02:25:34 AM
post removed. I tried something and it didn't work. Life is like that sometimes.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 11, 2014, 02:30:05 AM
^ The lawd moveth in mysterious ways.....
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 11, 2014, 03:26:32 AM
Ok. Miracles are the manifestation of God power in the physical word. So what you want for me is backing up my answer "Miracles happen, even today.
The links and the personal testimony I gave you are not enough to back my claim?
If so :
Do you think that people can get lucky? even today?
If possible could you back up your answer?

This goes back to the "cloak and dagger" shit. Any sect can claim some "lucky" event validates their position. Using the erratic path of disease progression is (1) not very verifiable, (2) non sect specific (3) not distinguishable from normal luck.

Essentially, if we look at the evidence that God is supposedly supplying you, then he doesn't really want to be identified, or associated with any sect. If God really wants to be known, he can make the sky rain iguanas, but we are so far away from that level of proof, that it's "cloak and daggers".

If I throw a succession of sixes and win a board game, then this is called luck, but it's obviously not very lucky, and probably not from God. If I throw another 6, then is it from God? Does God only act through really lucky events, and risk showing himself, or does he only work through mundane manipulations? If I was God, I could achieve my purpose through mundane manipulations, without revealing things which were especially "lucky". If I wanted to really reveal myself, I could just turn up and speak to people. Why leave them to guess whether I did something, when I really didn't? Is God taking credit for cures that he didn't do?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Graybeard on May 11, 2014, 05:35:27 AM
[wiki]Miracle of Lanciano [/wiki]

Here is your [wiki]Miracle of Lanciano [/wiki]

Quote
In the city of Lanciano, Italy, around 700, a Basilian hieromonk was assigned to celebrate Mass in the small church of St. Longinus. Celebrating in the Latin Rite and using unleavened bread, the monk had doubts about the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist.[1][2]

During the Mass, when he said the Words of Consecration ("This is my body. This is my blood"), with doubt in his soul, the priest is said to have seen the bread change into living flesh and the wine change into live blood which coagulated into five globules, irregular and differing in shape and size (the number supposedly corresponds to the number of wounds Christ suffered on the cross:

The first thing that the astute reader sees is that
there is no healing of amputees.
the event was 1400 years ago
there was no independent witnesses as to how in 700 AD the priest prepared the bread and wine.
there is nothing at all to say that what appeared was caused by a god.
the flesh and blood is quite clearly believed to be that of Christ - however, there is no evidence at all of this.
although, at the moment, a natural explanation has not been found, this does not mean that you can insert some fairytale of your own making.
The state of forensic science in 1970 is nowhere near as good as it is today
The sample is not kept securely.

And here http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/17746/did-the-miracle-of-lanciano-turn-bread-and-wine-into-flesh-and-blood
Quote
The only evidence for this transformation occurring is the long-ago testimony of a monk sometime near the year 700:

    During the 700th year of Our Lord [...] a monk of the Order of St. Basil was celebrating Holy Mass according to the Latin Rite. Although his name is unknown, it is reported in an ancient document that he was "... versed in the sciences of the world, but ignorant in that of God." (Cruz 1984, at p. 10)

With this being so long ago, and very little documentation surrounding the incident, I would treat descriptions of what happened as hearsay.

Philosopher David Hume explained:

    No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish.

In this case the testimony's hearsay nature makes the likelihood of its falsehood quite high.

Meanwhile, science has a very solid understanding of matter and chemistry. Under our current understanding, such a transformation is not possible. The likelihood of that being so substantially incorrect that bread could transform to flesh and blood in the hands of a doubting priest is very, very low.

This hearsay account is not enough to be persuasive that a miracle occurred.
References

Joan Carroll Cruz. Relics. Our Sunday Visitor Publishing, 1984.

You may also wish to look at: http://doubtfulnews.com/2013/07/a-eucharistic-miracle-or-just-disgusting/

and the quite funny "Miracle of the Bats' Piss" http://boingboing.net/2012/04/13/indian-skeptic-charged-with.html

So much for "miracles"
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Defiance on May 11, 2014, 06:57:59 AM
So basically the church is in charge of judging if it itself is lying or not, and the actual scientific community has no say in it?

Haha, nice one.

And here you go, about the spontaneous cancer recovery:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_remission


(Link corrected,
GB Mod)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Graybeard on May 11, 2014, 07:48:43 AM
My question is related to a bank religion. They tell you your money soul is secure and you trust them. You don't go a visit their vault heaven or ask for the specs of their buildings policy on Salvation or...etc. They basically tells you "give us your money powers of critical thinking" and you say yes.
so again, you just take their word for it. You have no independent evidence by which to demonstrate they can hold your money soul safely. You just have hear-say. And you believe in these claims because you are practicing confirmation bias. You have a pre-commitment.

There, I've fixed it for you.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 11, 2014, 08:47:58 AM
Ok. Miracles are the manifestation of God power in the physical word. So what you want for me is backing up my answer "Miracles happen, even today.
The links and the personal testimony I gave you are not enough to back my claim?
If so :
Do you think that people can get lucky? even today?
If possible could you back up your answer?

I asked you to backup your claims about miracles, with actual evidence (not anecdote or hear-say) and all you came back with was an attempt to change the subject. Could you get anymore dishonest? I wonder if you are actually a psychopath. Do you feel nothing when you are lying for Jesus?

Why are you now, even more dishonestly, attempting to shift the burden of proof (while attempting to change the subject) instead of actually dealing with the rebuttals that are before you?? You have committed at least 4 logical fallacies in this discussion so far (false analogy, argument from incredulity, shifting the burden of proof, and red herring). Why so much squirming and no actual evidence?? Is it really that hard for you to admit that your initial claims about miracles are mistaken and that you do not have the evidence you once thought you had for your belief in them? What is so hard about admitting your own ignorance? Isn't that the more intellectually honest path? If you are unwilling to come clean here then please demonstrate how anyone can independently tell the difference between a miracle and a non-miracle.

Second, I don't know what you mean by "lucky" and I'm not even going to allow you to change the subject, even one more time, until you deal with the rebuttals that myself and others have presented in earlier posts.

Btw, to second Greybeards point (and I noted this earlier) you are attempting a false analogy - trying to compare the natural with the alleged "super"natural. Once again, in regards to a bank we have demonstrable and independently verifiable and explainable examples of banks, tellers, managers, buildings, money, desks, computers, customers service lines, online banking and all the rest. We do not have any examples of a demonstrable "God", "Holy Spirit", "afterlife", "immaterial", "miracle", "demon", or "soul". These are just your assertions which you have asserted without any actual evidence (just hear-say).

Must we actually provide you an example of what evidence looks like? If I claimed their were things called "chairs" - which were seats for a person to sit on which typically consist of 4 legs and a back rest - you could actually go online and find pictures and video of chairs and you could buy one online yourself to verify it, or you could go to a place called "Wal-Mart" and buy one yourself. You could even go into the store and try out these "chairs" first, without buying one. Furthermore, you could have other disinterested and independent people check to see if I'm telling the truth by seeking out chairs in their home towns and reporting back with the data. You could also do a similar procedure with a Liger! It's called actual evidence. That is what you need. In fact, you need mountains of actual evidence because you are making an extraordinary claim and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Otherwise...

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."[1]
 1. Christopher Hitchens
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Graybeard on May 11, 2014, 12:34:39 PM
What rationale could there be behind a god that thinks it is more important to create images of Himself on a Walmart receipt than to heal an amputee?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2yDb73R1Ig
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 11, 2014, 12:40:10 PM
Funny, I see Charles Manson. :?

I guess God works in mysterious ways through a company that sells items made by underpaid Chinese laborers.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Nam on May 11, 2014, 01:06:25 PM
Funny, I see Charles Manson. :?

I guess God works in mysterious ways through a company that sells items made by underpaid Chinese laborers.

Do they speak Mandarin or Cantonese? There's a difference I tell ya, a difference!

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 11, 2014, 01:42:43 PM
Funny, I see Charles Manson. :?

I guess God works in mysterious ways through a company that sells items made by underpaid Chinese laborers.

Jesus has a lazy eye?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 11, 2014, 02:22:54 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/uxrkn5Z.jpg)

You be the judge. ;)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 11, 2014, 03:29:15 PM
Ok. Miracles are the manifestation of God power in the physical word. So what you want for me is backing up my answer "Miracles happen, even today.
The links and the personal testimony I gave you are not enough to back my claim?
If so :
Do you think that people can get lucky? even today?
If possible could you back up your answer?

This goes back to the "cloak and dagger" shit. Any sect can claim some "lucky" event validates their position. Using the erratic path of disease progression is (1) not very verifiable, (2) non sect specific (3) not distinguishable from normal luck.

Essentially, if we look at the evidence that God is supposedly supplying you, then he doesn't really want to be identified, or associated with any sect. If God really wants to be known, he can make the sky rain iguanas, but we are so far away from that level of proof, that it's "cloak and daggers".

If I throw a succession of sixes and win a board game, then this is called luck, but it's obviously not very lucky, and probably not from God. If I throw another 6, then is it from God? Does God only act through really lucky events, and risk showing himself, or does he only work through mundane manipulations? If I was God, I could achieve my purpose through mundane manipulations, without revealing things which were especially "lucky". If I wanted to really reveal myself, I could just turn up and speak to people. Why leave them to guess whether I did something, when I really didn't? Is God taking credit for cures that he didn't do?
So many questions! Not many answer to mine. I feel it's buried So I'll ask again.
Do you think that people can get lucky? even today? (yes or no will suffice)
If possible could you back up your answer? (if can't back up your yes or no that's ok too)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 11, 2014, 03:34:35 PM
Please define "luck" in the context by which you are using the term.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 11, 2014, 03:39:34 PM
I need you guys to answer these two questions. I am having trouble finding sources that you will accept to prove that "Miracles happen, even today". If you give me source that prove that "Luck happen, even today" or that "Luck doesn't happen" or that "luck never happen" I will then have an Idea on what kind of source are needed to prove my point.

Do you think that people can get lucky? even today? (yes or no will suffice)
If possible could you back up your answer? (if can't back up your yes or no that's ok too)

By luck I mean for example : I was walking down the street and a car was coming at me Luckily someone was there to warn me and I could duck the car. I was lucky that this person was there. I was lucky to have heard her. I am lucky to be alive today.
That kind of luck. Does it help?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Nam on May 11, 2014, 03:46:21 PM
Sources would be biased or non-biased statements etc., made by other people other than yourself based on what you state as being factual. We prefer non-biased.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 11, 2014, 03:49:38 PM
I need you guys to answer these two questions. I am having trouble finding sources that you will accept to prove that "Miracles happen, even today". If you give me source that prove that "Luck happen, even today" or that "Luck doesn't happen" or that "luck never happen" I will then have an Idea on what kind of source are needed to prove my point.

Do you think that people can get lucky? even today? (yes or no will suffice)
If possible could you back up your answer? (if can't back up your yes or no that's ok too)

By luck I mean for example : I was walking down the street and a car was coming at me Luckily someone was there to warn me and I could duck the car. I was lucky that this person was there. I was lucky to have heard her. I am lucky to be alive today.
That kind of luck. Does it help?

No, it doesn't. You didn't actually provide a definition for the way in which you are using that term. We just see that you are trying to turn the tables and shift the burden of proof (which is a logical fallacy). Why are you so vehemently avoiding actually demonstrating these alleged miracles you claim? You certainly are squirming a lot for someone making such extraordinary claims. It's awfully suspicious of both your motives and the nature of your claims themselves. If you were a salesman standing at my door, attempting these kind of verbal tricks and obfuscations, the conservation would have been over by now and I would have shut the door. The funny part is, it's likely that if a salesman were standing at your door making these kinds of extraordinary claims you wouldn't accept these kinds of attempts at avoidance either. The minute that the guy started hedging, hesitating, and/or not complying (like you are doing now) the skeptical shields would (rightly) go up. Why are you not practicing your skepticism consistently?


http://forums.philosophyforums.com/threads/does-luck-exist-what-is-luck-45785.html (http://forums.philosophyforums.com/threads/does-luck-exist-what-is-luck-45785.html)

I'm going to anticipate a possible response by you by simply noting that Occam's Razor eliminates any aspect of an attempted explanation which includes greater or unnecessary assumptions. So, if you attempt to argue that "God" (whatever that word means or refers to) 'controls everything' then you are making the greater assumption b/c we do not need that assumption to explain the universe as it behaves and operates. Please keep this in mind while providing your definition of "luck". 
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 11, 2014, 04:56:28 PM
Luck : "events that influence one's life and are seemingly beyond one's control" or "a purposeless, unpredictable and uncontrollable force that shapes events favorably or unfavorably for an individual, group or cause"
For example : I was walking down the street and a car was coming at me Luckily someone was there to warn me and I could duck the car. I was lucky that this person was there. I was lucky to have heard her. I am lucky to be alive today.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Defiance on May 11, 2014, 04:57:51 PM
Luck : "events that influence one's life and are seemingly beyond one's control" or "a purposeless, unpredictable and uncontrollable force that shapes events favorably or unfavorably for an individual, group or cause"
For example : I was walking down the street and a car was coming at me Luckily someone was there to warn me and I could duck the car. I was lucky that this person was there. I was lucky to have heard her. I am lucky to be alive today.
So a synonym of Fortunate.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 11, 2014, 05:14:11 PM
Luck : "events that influence one's life and are seemingly beyond one's control" or "a purposeless, unpredictable and uncontrollable force that shapes events favorably or unfavorably for an individual, group or cause"
For example : I was walking down the street and a car was coming at me Luckily someone was there to warn me and I could duck the car. I was lucky that this person was there. I was lucky to have heard her. I am lucky to be alive today.
So a synonym of Fortunate.
Yes, if you want.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 11, 2014, 08:47:27 PM
I am having trouble finding sources that you will accept to prove that "Miracles happen, even today".

That right there should give you pause and make you skeptical of these miracle claims.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Defiance on May 11, 2014, 08:49:45 PM
Luk is about to say "Well im sorry then if my evidence isnt good enoguh for you, its good enough for me."
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 11, 2014, 09:29:22 PM
What evidence? He hasn't given any evidence - just hear-say and attempts to shift the burden of proof.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on May 11, 2014, 11:10:13 PM
In any given event for which multiple outcomes are possible, we humans sometimes experience better results than expected, or we have no trouble seeing that the outcome could have been worse, and, since we are humans, we label the above-average outcomes as good luck. The law of averages dictates that sometimes good stuff will happen, sometimes neutral stuff will happen, sometimes bad stuff will happen.

My brother taught his two children to run immediately if he ever yelled the word "Run" at the top of his voice. One day on the side of a very icy street he saw a car sliding towards his 8 year old son. He yelled "Run!", and his son, whose back was turned to the car, started running just as he'd been trained, luckily away from the road, and hence he narrowly but successfully missed being squished between the moving car and a parked one.

Was that luck? Or was it preparation and training?

One of the most religious people I've ever known used to be married. He and his equally religious wife were driving down the highway when a 50 ton boulder fell over on their car and squished her flat. Was he lucky to survive? Was it just bad luck that she didn't? Or was the event merely one of the possible outcomes, and since the outcome sucked, we say it was "bad luck" instead of "good luck".

When I was in the military, getting my training as an electronic technician, I had to take a one week course in military paperwork. I flunked the class and had to take it over, which meant I had to stay a week longer before I could graduate the course and get my assignment. Everyone in the class I flunked out of was sent to SE Asia, most directly to the war, while the class I ended up in all went to Europe, and I spent the rest of my enlistment in England instead of having to dodge bullets.

Did I have bad luck that caused good luck, and did the person who went to Vietnam in my place have only bad luck? Or did each part of that story have many possible outcomes, so that I merely experienced one of the better possibilities?

I was an atheist when I didn't go to Vietnam, and I've been an atheist every time I've driven down a mountain road with lots of boulders and things have worked out pretty well for me in those two departments. So presumably no gods have been involved.

Luck is a word we humans use to label the better-quality outcomes in life. We have ways to describe the bad outcomes as well. But the words aren't factual, they are merely descriptive words, that we use for our convenience, and sometimes our comfort. Yes, some people have more of it than others, but the law of averages explains that quite well. There is no reason for everyone to have an equal share in the more desirable outcome department. There is way too much random stuff going on to allow for pleasant consistencies.

Enjoy luck all you want. Just don't plan on it. Nor should you expect it unconditionally. Just be happy when you don't get squished and try to make adjustments in your lifestyle, when possible, so that you are less likely to be in that position in the future.

And don't think for a second that it is an important part of reality that can be manipulated by your hopes and/or prayers.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 11, 2014, 11:32:34 PM
In any given event for which multiple outcomes are possible, we humans sometimes experience better results than expected, or we have no trouble seeing that the outcome could have been worse, and, since we are humans, we label the above-average outcomes as good luck. The law of averages dictates that sometimes good stuff will happen, sometimes neutral stuff will happen, sometimes bad stuff will happen.

My brother taught his two children to run immediately if he ever yelled the word "Run" at the top of his voice. One day on the side of a very icy street he saw a car sliding towards his 8 year old son. He yelled "Run!", and his son, whose back was turned to the car, started running just as he'd been trained, luckily away from the road, and hence he narrowly but successfully missed being squished between the moving car and a parked one.

Was that luck? Or was it preparation and training?

One of the most religious people I've ever known used to be married. He and his equally religious wife were driving down the highway when a 50 ton boulder fell over on their car and squished her flat. Was he lucky to survive? Was it just bad luck that she didn't? Or was the event merely one of the possible outcomes, and since the outcome sucked, we say it was "bad luck" instead of "good luck".

When I was in the military, getting my training as an electronic technician, I had to take a one week course in military paperwork. I flunked the class and had to take it over, which meant I had to stay a week longer before I could graduate the course and get my assignment. Everyone in the class I flunked out of was sent to SE Asia, most directly to the war, while the class I ended up in all went to Europe, and I spent the rest of my enlistment in England instead of having to dodge bullets.

Did I have bad luck that caused good luck, and did the person who went to Vietnam in my place have only bad luck? Or did each part of that story have many possible outcomes, so that I merely experienced one of the better possibilities?

I was an atheist when I didn't go to Vietnam, and I've been an atheist every time I've driven down a mountain road with lots of boulders and things have worked out pretty well for me in those two departments. So presumably no gods have been involved.

Luck is a word we humans use to label the better-quality outcomes in life. We have ways to describe the bad outcomes as well. But the words aren't factual, they are merely descriptive words, that we use for our convenience, and sometimes our comfort. Yes, some people have more of it than others, but the law of averages explains that quite well. There is no reason for everyone to have an equal share in the more desirable outcome department. There is way too much random stuff going on to allow for pleasant consistencies.

Enjoy luck all you want. Just don't plan on it. Nor should you expect it unconditionally. Just be happy when you don't get squished and try to make adjustments in your lifestyle, when possible, so that you are less likely to be in that position in the future.

And don't think for a second that it is an important part of reality that can be manipulated by your hopes and/or prayers.
Those a great stories. Makes you think. Thank you for sharing.
Now back to the discussion:
Do you think that people can get lucky? even today? (yes or no will suffice)
If possible could you back up your answer? (if can't back up your yes or no that's ok too)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: skeptic54768 on May 12, 2014, 12:39:23 AM
What rationale could there be behind a god that thinks it is more important to create images of Himself on a Walmart receipt than to heal an amputee?

1. Do you believe that God is obligated to cater to us like a gumball machine?
(Be careful if you answer yes to this question. The consequences are dire.)

2. Do you believe that God views our physical bodies as being more important than our immaterial non-physical souls?

3. Do you believe that God thinks it's bad to be an amputee?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Astreja on May 12, 2014, 01:44:27 AM
Do you think that people can get lucky? even today? (yes or no will suffice)
If possible could you back up your answer? (if can't back up your yes or no that's ok too)

I think that "luck" is largely a matter of positioning oneself strategically in order to be close to possible opportunities or solutions.  IMO, just about anyone can do it, but they have to know their strengths, their weaknesses, what they want, and what they're willing to do to get it.  With all of the above (strengths, etc.) luck approaches inevitability.  Lack of self-knowledge, including not being honest with oneself, will sabotage the process.  Contradictory or constantly changing desires make luck a very elusive target indeed.

(Disclaimer:  I have a remarkable talent for getting what I want, and experience a lot of synchronicity at opportune moments, but haven't formally tested the above hypothesis.)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 12, 2014, 01:48:14 AM
I think that "luck" is largely a matter of positioning oneself strategically in order to be close to possible opportunities or solutions.  IMO, just about anyone can do it, but they have to know their strengths, their weaknesses, what they want, and what they're willing to do to get it.  With all of the above (strengths, etc.) luck approaches inevitability.  Lack of self-knowledge, including not being honest with oneself, will sabotage the process.  Contradictory or constantly changing desires make luck a very elusive target indeed.

(Disclaimer:  I have a remarkable talent for getting what I want, and experience a lot of synchronicity at opportune moments, but haven't formally tested the above hypothesis.)
Yeah but do you think that people (not only you) can get lucky?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Astreja on May 12, 2014, 01:54:30 AM
Yeah but do you think that people (not only you) can get lucky?

Yes, I do.  I don't see anything supernatural or divine about what I'm doing -- It's one part clarity, one part stability and focus, and whatever physical or mental effort the goal demands.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 12, 2014, 02:00:13 AM
Yeah but do you think that people (not only you) can get lucky?

Yes, I do.  I don't see anything supernatural or divine about what I'm doing -- It's one part clarity, one part stability and focus, and whatever physical or mental effort the goal demands.
could you backup your answer?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Graybeard on May 12, 2014, 05:25:17 AM
What rationale could there be behind a god that thinks it is more important to create images of Himself on a Walmart receipt than to heal an amputee?

1. Do you believe that God is obligated to cater to us like a gumball machine?
(Be careful if you answer yes to this question. The consequences are dire.)

2. Do you believe that God views our physical bodies as being more important than our immaterial non-physical souls?

3. Do you believe that God thinks it's bad to be an amputee?
You did not answer my question: could you have another attempt?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Graybeard on May 12, 2014, 05:50:02 AM
Luck : "events that influence one's life and are seemingly beyond one's control" or "a purposeless, unpredictable and uncontrollable force that shapes events favorably or unfavorably for an individual, group or cause"
For example : I was walking down the street and a car was coming at me Luckily someone was there to warn me and I could duck the car. I was lucky that this person was there. I was lucky to have heard her. I am lucky to be alive today.
You may have heard someone say, “I have a lucky coin.” When they say this they mean that they have an irrational belief that the coin will somehow give them “luck.”

Then in your example, we see the other meaning/use, where it is used to describe the quality of a set of circumstances, as in your example.

When we consider the nature of “Luck” it is important to realise that luck is a concept - it is a description - not a reality. Luck is a word that is used to describe a set of circumstances that turn out to be more advantageous than we imagine might have been the case when compared to another possible outcome.

However, we know there is no such thing as a “lucky coin” – how could it work? It would have to change all the laws of the universe to our benefit.

We know that in your example, the circumstances were simply that you heard something, reacted, and were not hit.

We do not say, "Luckily 2+2=4, otherwise my calculation would not have worked."

Christians often do not think critically about what they say, and they imagine that abstract ideas have a real existence. Atheists use expressions like “I was lucky” but they understand that this is simply an idiom, and that “luck” does not really exist.

Your question should be, “Do you understand the concept of “luck”?” and the answer will be “Yes”, I understand it in the same way that I understand the concept of a deity, a unicorn or a dragon.

You will have heard that famous quote by the golfer Gary Player: “The harder I practice, the luckier I get.”

I think that this explains well the concept of luck and gives us a definition upon both you and we can agree.

Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Astreja on May 12, 2014, 10:26:37 AM
could you backup your answer?

About My version of "luck" being non-supernatural, you mean?  Well, it never seems to violate any scientific principles, and it's directly proportional to how much focused thought and effort I put in.  It appears to be a form of autosuggestion or pattern recognition.  As I said, I haven't conducted any tests to validate or falsify the hypothesis.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 12, 2014, 11:40:14 AM
You may have heard someone say, “I have a lucky coin.” When they say this they mean that they have an irrational belief that the coin will somehow give them “luck.”

Then in your example, we see the other meaning/use, where it is used to describe the quality of a set of circumstances, as in your example.

When we consider the nature of “Luck” it is important to realise that luck is a concept - it is a description - not a reality. Luck is a word that is used to describe a set of circumstances that turn out to be more advantageous than we imagine might have been the case when compared to another possible outcome.

However, we know there is no such thing as a “lucky coin” – how could it work? It would have to change all the laws of the universe to our benefit.

We know that in your example, the circumstances were simply that you heard something, reacted, and were not hit.

We do not say, "Luckily 2+2=4, otherwise my calculation would not have worked."

Christians often do not think critically about what they say, and they imagine that abstract ideas have a real existence. Atheists use expressions like “I was lucky” but they understand that this is simply an idiom, and that “luck” does not really exist.

Your question should be, “Do you understand the concept of “luck”?” and the answer will be “Yes”, I understand it in the same way that I understand the concept of a deity, a unicorn or a dragon.

You will have heard that famous quote by the golfer Gary Player: “The harder I practice, the luckier I get.”

I think that this explains well the concept of luck and gives us a definition upon both you and we can agree.
Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is Yes people can get lucky) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Graybeard on May 12, 2014, 11:55:04 AM
Let me pick one. What about a "Tubercular peritonitis with complications for seven years, extreme emaciation and oscillating fever. Comatose when brought to Lourdes" person? She was cured.
From Wiki, "An estimated 200 million people have visited the shrine since 1860". Statistically we should expect spontaneous remission in any group of 200,000,000.

Spontaneous remission is common to all human beings, regardless of their faith.

But the most important point you deny is: "There is no proof that your god did anything."

Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 12, 2014, 11:59:04 AM
You may have heard someone say, “I have a lucky coin.” When they say this they mean that they have an irrational belief that the coin will somehow give them “luck.”

Then in your example, we see the other meaning/use, where it is used to describe the quality of a set of circumstances, as in your example.

When we consider the nature of “Luck” it is important to realise that luck is a concept - it is a description - not a reality. Luck is a word that is used to describe a set of circumstances that turn out to be more advantageous than we imagine might have been the case when compared to another possible outcome.

However, we know there is no such thing as a “lucky coin” – how could it work? It would have to change all the laws of the universe to our benefit.

We know that in your example, the circumstances were simply that you heard something, reacted, and were not hit.

We do not say, "Luckily 2+2=4, otherwise my calculation would not have worked."

Christians often do not think critically about what they say, and they imagine that abstract ideas have a real existence. Atheists use expressions like “I was lucky” but they understand that this is simply an idiom, and that “luck” does not really exist.

Your question should be, “Do you understand the concept of “luck”?” and the answer will be “Yes”, I understand it in the same way that I understand the concept of a deity, a unicorn or a dragon.

You will have heard that famous quote by the golfer Gary Player: “The harder I practice, the luckier I get.”

I think that this explains well the concept of luck and gives us a definition upon both you and we can agree.
Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is Yes people can get lucky) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?

I know what you are trying to do with GB, and it's not going to work with me because you are making claims to the supernatural and miraculous (basically "magic" did it). And that is not an answer at all, and does not explain anything. It is a placeholder for your ignorance. On the other hand, we do in fact have lots of sound evidence of the laws of the universe (the laws of physics) operating as we would expect them to, and we can make (and have made) reliable predictions based upon those laws. This is fundamentally opposed to your attempts at answering mysteries with even bigger mysteries because such attempts are useless for separating fact from fiction.

Please stop dodging and actually provide the evidence for your claims that you made earlier (which I quoted), or admit that you cannot and retract your statements.

EDIT: Btw, there is no such "thing" as luck. As others have noted, "luck" is merely a word which is used by humans to describe "that which happens" (generally). Again, if you are going to argue that your God allegedly "makes everything happen" then the burden of proof is upon you. 1) Define this term "God" with a coherent definition that actually refers to some-thing and 2) demonstrate the assertion that it does anything. Thus far, you haven't done anything to differentiate between your claims of miracles and those of superstitions throughout history in nearly ever culture (not to mention Santa Claus and Pegasus). Furthermore, if you make the claim that God controls everything, or makes everything happen, then you are actually violating Occam's Razor because we do not need that assumption in order to adequately explain events.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 12, 2014, 12:13:46 PM
What rationale could there be behind a god that thinks it is more important to create images of Himself on a Walmart receipt than to heal an amputee?

1. Do you believe that God is obligated to cater to us like a gumball machine?
(Be careful if you answer yes to this question. The consequences are dire.)

2. Do you believe that God views our physical bodies as being more important than our immaterial non-physical souls?

3. Do you believe that God thinks it's bad to be an amputee?

1. According to your own theology, this alleged "God" thing is absolutely supposed to "cater" to us by actually being loving. But of course, you want to spin and rationalize away all passages demonstrating that this is not the case at all. That is the problem - your extreme confirmation bias. You want to attempt to twist things that are clearly not loving, trying to make them sound loving. BULLSHIT!

What's funny is, your own bible says "Woe unto him who calls evil good and good evil." LOL. You can't have your cake and eat it too, sorry. By your bible's own standard your alleged "Yahweh" is evil.

2. I don't believe in your Santa Claus for grown ups. So why would I think anything "actually" about it?

3. In your theology, whether or not it is "bad" is irrelevant. The bible says if you ask ANYTHING in his name you shall receive it (Mark 16, John 14, Matt 18). But this clearly does not happen. So it is falsified. I don't care how much you want to spin and rationalize the passage so as to make them unfalsifiable. Sorry, homie don't play that (not with Islam, not with Mormons, and not with you!). Your religion, and your theology, are clearly in error and you refuse to see it (i.e. - you cannot be reasoned with b/c you started with your conclusion and are trying to work backwards).
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 12, 2014, 01:12:05 PM
What rationale could there be behind a god that thinks it is more important to create images of Himself on a Walmart receipt than to heal an amputee?

1. Do you believe that God is obligated to cater to us like a gumball machine?
(Be careful if you answer yes to this question. The consequences are dire.)

2. Do you believe that God views our physical bodies as being more important than our immaterial non-physical souls?

3. Do you believe that God thinks it's bad to be an amputee?
You did not answer my question: could you have another attempt?
Was those question directed to me? Since it wasn't my quotes I am wondering.
Anyway here's what I think
1. No
2. No
3. No
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 12, 2014, 01:29:06 PM
Please stop dodging and actually provide the evidence for your claims that you made earlier (which I quoted), or admit that you cannot and retract your statements.
I can't. I need help. It seems that I am not smart enough. I tried but it's not enough for your standards. So I wanted you give me an example on how you standards work with something similar to miracles. You refused to help me. I understand how it is easy to  critic the others when we don't look at ourselves.
Quote
EDIT: Btw, there is no such "thing" as luck. As others have noted, "luck" is merely a word which is used by humans to describe "that which happens" (generally). Again, if you are going to argue that your God allegedly "makes everything happen" then the burden of proof is upon you. 1) Define this term "God" with a coherent definition that actually refers to some-thing and 2) demonstrate the assertion that it does anything. Thus far, you haven't done anything to differentiate between your claims of miracles and those of superstitions throughout history in nearly ever culture (not to mention Santa Claus and Pegasus). Furthermore, if you make the claim that God controls everything, or makes everything happen, then you are actually violating Occam's Razor because we do not need that assumption in order to adequately explain events.

Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is NO, people cannot get lucky) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: epidemic on May 12, 2014, 02:43:05 PM
I was referring to the law of conservation of mass/energy indeed. Reattach a limb does not violate any laws of physics...that I know of.

Well god turned a chick into a pillar of salt.  Poofing a limb back would not be breaking the rules quite as badly as that.  Flooding the entire planet again mass and energy laws probably violated.

I would even except spontanious regrowth of the limb from a bud using normal cellular growth as a mechanism but I would prefer the poof method.  But if christians grew back legs and atheists and muslims did not I would consider that a good sign.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: epidemic on May 12, 2014, 02:46:47 PM
luck is an absolute fact.

The cause may be miraculous or coincidental in nature but luck happens and people have runs of luck.

Good luck IMO is where a miraculous or coincidental event happens that is in keeping with ones desire.

Bad luck IMO is where a miraculous or coincidental event happens that is counter to ones desires.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 12, 2014, 02:55:00 PM
luck is an absolute fact.

The cause may be miraculous or coincidental in nature but luck happens and people have runs of luck.

Good luck IMO is where a miraculous or coincidental event happens that is in keeping with ones desire.

Bad luck IMO is where a miraculous or coincidental event happens that is counter to ones desires.
Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is YES, people can get lucky) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Defiance on May 12, 2014, 03:04:05 PM
luck is an absolute fact.

The cause may be miraculous or coincidental in nature but luck happens and people have runs of luck.

Good luck IMO is where a miraculous or coincidental event happens that is in keeping with ones desire.

Bad luck IMO is where a miraculous or coincidental event happens that is counter to ones desires.
Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is YES, people can get lucky) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?
Evidence? Go try it yourself.

Get a nerf gun, the one that mimics a revolver with six barrels.

Take 5, not 6, nerf darts and stick them into five barrels. Now you have all but one barrel filled. Give the barrel a spin, and close your eyes and take a shot at your head.

If you did not get shot, is that luck? Or is it just an extremely unlikely event that just happened?

There, you will have your own evidence as to what luck is, and if it is real.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 12, 2014, 03:14:49 PM
I was referring to the law of conservation of mass/energy indeed. Reattach a limb does not violate any laws of physics...that I know of.

Well god turned a chick into a pillar of salt.  Poofing a limb back would not be breaking the rules quite as badly as that.  Flooding the entire planet again mass and energy laws probably violated.

I would even except spontanious regrowth of the limb from a bud using normal cellular growth as a mechanism but I would prefer the poof method.  But if christians grew back legs and atheists and muslims did not I would consider that a good sign.
Yeah...those poof miracles are not contemporary. So don't expect to see them.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: nogodsforme on May 12, 2014, 06:16:06 PM
Lukvance, have you taken a statistics or research methods class? if not, you might consider those a better use of time and money than a trip to Lourdes.

One thing to note is that the number of miracles per thousand visitors has fallen dramatically like by 75%, since people have had to prove their claims before the panel of experts you mentioned. What that suggests is that even a non-scientific screening committee eliminates a lot of anecdotal miracles. But what about the rest? How can you tell whether the water at Lourdes really produces miracle healings or not?

First, you have to be objective, and accept the possibility of being wrong. Assume that the water has no effect and then try to see if it does. That is the scientific way to go about it. In order to determine if the water at Lourdes (or prayer to a particular god, doing a rain dance or sacrificing an unblemished lamb) was the possible cause of some subsequent event, you have to have more than a team of religious and medical experts looking at anecdotal reports, or even at medical records. No matter how well-trained they are and no matter how objective they try to be, that is not scientific.

If you want to do it scientifically, you need a double blind study using standard research methods. That means you have to compare the medical records of two similar groups of sick people, one group using ordinary tap water from LA and the other group using Lourdes water, with nobody but the researcher knowing who is using which. That way you can control for the placebo effect of just doing something as opposed to doing nothing. (You could also add in a control group of people who are sick with the same illness who do nothing but fill in the survey, no water or anything.)

Then you need to statistically analyze the results, counting all the results, not just the good ones. One person in a million, or a fraction of a percent of the people getting better is not statistically significant. It is scientifically meaningless to say "my mother went to Lourdes and later she got better; it was a miracle from god". It is worthless from a scientific POV unless you have a comparison group. If the same number, ie one person, in each group gets better, you have no grounds to say that the magical Lourdes water helped more than sinful water from an LA faucet, or just filling in the survey.

At the bare minimum, you need to compare your treatment group (the people who went to Lourdes and got in the water, for example)  with a control group, that is, you need a group of people who had the same illness or condition who did not go to Lourdes.

Then, you could compare the two groups longitudinally at intervals after the treatment. One month, six months, one year later. How many of each group got better? How many of each group got worse or died? One person of a thousand getting better or even being completely cured is not scientifically significant. Until the "miracle" reaches a level of significance that is higher than doing nothing at all (some people just get better with or without going to Lourdes) we can safely ignore it.

When religious "miracles" reach the minimum scientific standards we require of a bottle of aspirin or tooth whitener, ie  1) does it actually work, 2) does it actually work for lots of people, 3)does it actually work for lots of people consistently, and 4)does it actually work for lots of people consistently better than doing nothing, we can start paying attention. Until then we can dismiss their claims.

Is your faith strong enough to submit miracle claims to a real scientific test? Didn't think so.

[I have been involved with a longitudinal scientific health study for nearly 20 years now, so I know a bit about how those are done. So far, none of the data show any effect of prayer or religion other than a bit of stress relief for people who attend religious services (of any kind) pray or meditate regularly. Better stress relief is gained from regular physical exercise than from any religious activity. No connection between any religious activity and overall improved health, reduced illness or any disease cures. ]
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 12, 2014, 07:06:26 PM
Lukvance, have you taken a statistics or research methods class? if not, you might consider those a better use of time and money than a trip to Lourdes.

One thing to note is that the number of miracles per thousand visitors has fallen dramatically like by 75%, since people have had to prove their claims before the panel of experts you mentioned. What that suggests is that even a non-scientific screening committee eliminates a lot of anecdotal miracles. But what about the rest? How can you tell whether the water at Lourdes really produces miracle healings or not?

First, you have to be objective, and accept the possibility of being wrong. Assume that the water has no effect and then try to see if it does. That is the scientific way to go about it. In order to determine if the water at Lourdes (or prayer to a particular god, doing a rain dance or sacrificing an unblemished lamb) was the possible cause of some subsequent event, you have to have more than a team of religious and medical experts looking at anecdotal reports, or even at medical records. No matter how well-trained they are and no matter how objective they try to be, that is not scientific.

If you want to do it scientifically, you need a double blind study using standard research methods. That means you have to compare the medical records of two similar groups of sick people, one group using ordinary tap water from LA and the other group using Lourdes water, with nobody but the researcher knowing who is using which. That way you can control for the placebo effect of just doing something as opposed to doing nothing. (You could also add in a control group of people who are sick with the same illness who do nothing but fill in the survey, no water or anything.)

Then you need to statistically analyze the results, counting all the results, not just the good ones. One person in a million, or a fraction of a percent of the people getting better is not statistically significant. It is scientifically meaningless to say "my mother went to Lourdes and later she got better; it was a miracle from god". It is worthless from a scientific POV unless you have a comparison group. If the same number, ie one person, in each group gets better, you have no grounds to say that the magical Lourdes water helped more than sinful water from an LA faucet, or just filling in the survey.

At the bare minimum, you need to compare your treatment group (the people who went to Lourdes and got in the water, for example)  with a control group, that is, you need a group of people who had the same illness or condition who did not go to Lourdes.

Then, you could compare the two groups longitudinally at intervals after the treatment. One month, six months, one year later. How many of each group got better? How many of each group got worse or died? One person of a thousand getting better or even being completely cured is not scientifically significant. Until the "miracle" reaches a level of significance that is higher than doing nothing at all (some people just get better with or without going to Lourdes) we can safely ignore it.

When religious "miracles" reach the minimum scientific standards we require of a bottle of aspirin or tooth whitener, ie  1) does it actually work, 2) does it actually work for lots of people, 3)does it actually work for lots of people consistently, and 4)does it actually work for lots of people consistently better than doing nothing, we can start paying attention. Until then we can dismiss their claims.

Is your faith strong enough to submit miracle claims to a real scientific test? Didn't think so.

[I have been involved with a longitudinal scientific health study for nearly 20 years now, so I know a bit about how those are done. So far, none of the data show any effect of prayer or religion other than a bit of stress relief for people who attend religious services (of any kind) pray or meditate regularly. Better stress relief is gained from regular physical exercise than from any religious activity. No connection between any religious activity and overall improved health, reduced illness or any disease cures. ]

Cool. What about luck.
Do you think that people can get lucky? even today? (yes or no will suffice)
If possible could you back up your answer? (if can't back up your yes or no that's ok too just tell us you can't)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Defiance on May 12, 2014, 07:40:15 PM
Haha, told you.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Graybeard on May 13, 2014, 09:01:22 AM
When we consider the nature of “Luck” it is important to realise that luck is a concept - it is a description - not a reality.
Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is Yes people can get lucky) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?
You have missed the point: I suspect you have missed it on purpose. This is deception and not a pleasant trait for a so-called Christian.

You are ascribing "luck" as an actual concrete thing. Something that sits on something and "makes it fortunate". I was saying that luck is nothing more than a word that describes a fortunate outcome.

The outcome that happened, by definition, must have been the only possible outcome given all the forces at work. The only possible outcome cannot be lucky. Therefore "luck" of itself, does not exist.

We describe things as lucky when we are pleasantly surprised by the outcome and know that there was a chance that the event might have had disadvantageous consequences.

However, and as I said, "When we consider the nature of “Luck” it is important to realise that luck is a concept - it is a description - not a reality."

And as I also mentioned, if there really was "luck" then the luck would have to work like magic in order to change the whole structure of the universe.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 13, 2014, 09:37:27 AM
You have missed the point: I suspect you have missed it on purpose. This is deception and not a pleasant trait for a so-called Christian.

It might be pertinent to ask if Luk has completed any science, or mathematics degrees. Not all people are as smart as us.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Graybeard on May 13, 2014, 09:50:23 AM
What rationale could there be behind a god that thinks it is more important to create images of Himself on a Walmart receipt than to heal an amputee?

1. Do you believe that God is obligated to cater to us like a gumball machine?
(Be careful if you answer yes to this question. The consequences are dire.)

2. Do you believe that God views our physical bodies as being more important than our immaterial non-physical souls?

3. Do you believe that God thinks it's bad to be an amputee?
You did not answer my question: could you have another attempt?
Was those question directed to me? Since it wasn't my quotes I am wondering.
Anyway here's what I think
1. No
2. No
3. No
You seem to have answered Skeptic's questions...
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Astreja on May 13, 2014, 10:24:30 AM
Yeah...those poof miracles are not contemporary. So don't expect to see them.

More likely, "poof miracles" never happened at all and are just storybook moralizing.  "Oh, so you care more about the city and your old friends than about Me?" *poof* *humanoid NaCl statuary* "See what happens when you put the world before The Lord Thy Gawd?  Neener neener neener."
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 13, 2014, 11:59:19 AM
When we consider the nature of “Luck” it is important to realise that luck is a concept - it is a description - not a reality.
Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is Yes people can get lucky) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?
You have missed the point: I suspect you have missed it on purpose. This is deception and not a pleasant trait for a so-called Christian.

You are ascribing "luck" as an actual concrete thing. Something that sits on something and "makes it fortunate". I was saying that luck is nothing more than a word that describes a fortunate outcome.

The outcome that happened, by definition, must have been the only possible outcome given all the forces at work. The only possible outcome cannot be lucky. Therefore "luck" of itself, does not exist.

We describe things as lucky when we are pleasantly surprised by the outcome and know that there was a chance that the event might have had disadvantageous consequences.

However, and as I said, "When we consider the nature of “Luck” it is important to realise that luck is a concept - it is a description - not a reality."

And as I also mentioned, if there really was "luck" then the luck would have to work like magic in order to change the whole structure of the universe.
Alright then :  Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand now, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is Yes people can NOT get lucky since luck doesn't exist) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 13, 2014, 12:02:15 PM
What rationale could there be behind a god that thinks it is more important to create images of Himself on a Walmart receipt than to heal an amputee?

1. Do you believe that God is obligated to cater to us like a gumball machine?
(Be careful if you answer yes to this question. The consequences are dire.)

2. Do you believe that God views our physical bodies as being more important than our immaterial non-physical souls?

3. Do you believe that God thinks it's bad to be an amputee?
You did not answer my question: could you have another attempt?
Was those question directed to me? Since it wasn't my quotes I am wondering.
Anyway here's what I think
1. No
2. No
3. No
You seem to have answered Skeptic's questions...
Oh! this quoting is killing me.
To the question : "What rationale could there be behind a god that thinks it is more important to create images of Himself on a Walmart receipt than to heal an amputee?" I would answer : There is none. I don't think that God thinks that it is more important to create images of himself on a Walmart receipt than to heal an amputee.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: epidemic on May 13, 2014, 01:49:19 PM
When we consider the nature of “Luck” it is important to realise that luck is a concept - it is a description - not a reality.
Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is Yes people can get lucky) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?
You have missed the point: I suspect you have missed it on purpose. This is deception and not a pleasant trait for a so-called Christian.

You are ascribing "luck" as an actual concrete thing. Something that sits on something and "makes it fortunate". I was saying that luck is nothing more than a word that describes a fortunate outcome.

The outcome that happened, by definition, must have been the only possible outcome given all the forces at work. The only possible outcome cannot be lucky. Therefore "luck" of itself, does not exist.

We describe things as lucky when we are pleasantly surprised by the outcome and know that there was a chance that the event might have had disadvantageous consequences.

However, and as I said, "When we consider the nature of “Luck” it is important to realise that luck is a concept - it is a description - not a reality."

And as I also mentioned, if there really was "luck" then the luck would have to work like magic in order to change the whole structure of the universe.
Alright then :  Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand now, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is Yes people can NOT get lucky since luck doesn't exist) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?

I don't really know how one would prove luck does not exist since it does.

Once again, luck is the convergence of desire, lack of preparation and fortunate coincidence.

Again take that 6 shooter nerf gun and point it at your eye.  Take out all but 1 dart spin the cylinder cock and pull the trigger 5 times and repeat after 10 attempts are you laying on the ground screaming out profanities.  if you make it past 10 attempts Then you are lucky.  I don't think god wastes his time on protecting you from stupid experiments that cause you no harm.

note also that even the lucky guy randomly becomes unlucky to the point where he was able to at one point make it past 10 he will equally be unlucky where 10 out of 10 times he will hig himself in the eye.  There is no rhyme or reason to luck.

This is in keeping with the laws of probability and chance.  sometimes even a bad dart thrower will throw two bullseyes, sometimes you will throw 3 7's in a row playing craps.

Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Graybeard on May 13, 2014, 03:06:34 PM
Alright then :  Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand now, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is Yes people can NOT get lucky since luck doesn't exist) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?
Look, I have lived sufficient years to be able to say that I understand what people mean when they say, "That was lucky." or when Napoleon asked before selecting his Generals, "Is he lucky?"

I am not giving evidence, I am explaining something to you.

You seem to think that there is a mysterious and undetectable force in the universe that "Does things" and sometime smiles upon us and acts in our favour.

You seem to think that there is a mysterious and undetectable force in the universe that "Does things" and sometime laughs at us and acts in a cruel way.

The only problem with your theory is that it is (i) mysterious and undetectable, (ii) it acts at random and (iii) it should defy the laws of nature: (iv) all those things are impossible.

Now, please leave "luck" alone. It has been explained to you. Remember when I said, "It was lucky that 2+2=4, otherwise my calculation might have been wrong."? Well that explains luck:
(i) You do not know how something happened,
(ii) it was fortunate.
(iii) therefore it is "luck".

As opposed to

(i) You do know how something happened,
(ii) it was fortunate.
(iii) therefore it is not "luck".

As I also said, "You worship ignorance."[1]



 1. I ask you to remember that when next you speak to your god.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 13, 2014, 03:09:51 PM
When we consider the nature of “Luck” it is important to realise that luck is a concept - it is a description - not a reality.
Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is Yes people can get lucky) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?
You have missed the point: I suspect you have missed it on purpose. This is deception and not a pleasant trait for a so-called Christian.

You are ascribing "luck" as an actual concrete thing. Something that sits on something and "makes it fortunate". I was saying that luck is nothing more than a word that describes a fortunate outcome.

The outcome that happened, by definition, must have been the only possible outcome given all the forces at work. The only possible outcome cannot be lucky. Therefore "luck" of itself, does not exist.

We describe things as lucky when we are pleasantly surprised by the outcome and know that there was a chance that the event might have had disadvantageous consequences.

However, and as I said, "When we consider the nature of “Luck” it is important to realise that luck is a concept - it is a description - not a reality."

And as I also mentioned, if there really was "luck" then the luck would have to work like magic in order to change the whole structure of the universe.
Alright then :  Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand now, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is Yes people can NOT get lucky since luck doesn't exist) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?

I don't really know how one would prove luck does not exist since it does.

Once again, luck is the convergence of desire, lack of preparation and fortunate coincidence.

Again take that 6 shooter nerf gun and point it at your eye.  Take out all but 1 dart spin the cylinder cock and pull the trigger 5 times and repeat after 10 attempts are you laying on the ground screaming out profanities.  if you make it past 10 attempts Then you are lucky.  I don't think god wastes his time on protecting you from stupid experiments that cause you no harm.

note also that even the lucky guy randomly becomes unlucky to the point where he was able to at one point make it past 10 he will equally be unlucky where 10 out of 10 times he will hig himself in the eye.  There is no rhyme or reason to luck.

This is in keeping with the laws of probability and chance.  sometimes even a bad dart thrower will throw two bullseyes, sometimes you will throw 3 7's in a row playing craps.
You should ask Graybeard. quote him and not me to ask how someone would prove that luck does not exist.
Here I am only asking you the following question : Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is YES, people can get lucky) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?
Yes,no or other?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 13, 2014, 03:13:05 PM
Alright then :  Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand now, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is Yes people can NOT get lucky since luck doesn't exist) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?
Look, I have lived sufficient years to be able to say that I understand what people mean when they say, "That was lucky." or when Napoleon asked before selecting his Generals, "Is he lucky?"

I am not giving evidence, I am explaining something to you.

You seem to think that there is a mysterious and undetectable force in the universe that "Does things" and sometime smiles upon us and acts in our favour.

You seem to think that there is a mysterious and undetectable force in the universe that "Does things" and sometime laughs at us and acts in a cruel way.

The only problem with your theory is that it is (i) mysterious and undetectable, (ii) it acts at random and (iii) it should defy the laws of nature: (iv) all those things are impossible.

Now, please leave "luck" alone. It has been explained to you. Remember when I said, "It was lucky that 2+2=4, otherwise my calculation might have been wrong."? Well that explains luck:
(i) You do not know how something happened,
(ii) it was fortunate.
(iii) therefore it is "luck".

As opposed to

(i) You do know how something happened,
(ii) it was fortunate.
(iii) therefore it is not "luck".

As I also said, "You worship ignorance."[1]
 1. I ask you to remember that when next you speak to your god.
I wanted you to prove your point by bringing enough evidence. Enough information to backup your answer. All that you did was explaining to us what does the word mean. Hence not answering the question asked.
Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is YES, people can get lucky)
Do you feel that your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?

Yes, no or other?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: epidemic on May 13, 2014, 03:15:34 PM
luk,

I guess that the fact that luck does not seem to favor anyone for any particular reason is not good enough proof for you.

Luck appears to be completely random in nature and predictable by the laws of averages is not enough for you.

a guy playing roulette in vegas will run out of luck no matter how long his streak of luck has run.  Eventually if you play long enough your luck will run out.  Almost the exact way that the laws of statistics averages would predict.

Although these are not hard facts they lead you to a conclusion that makes luck look more like a convergence of averages and desired outcome.  Rather than a sentient being determining fate.


and of course I could turn the question around on you.


Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is YES, people can get lucky) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?

and absolutely people do get lucky.  but luck does not appear to be something tangible predictable or guided.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 13, 2014, 03:21:29 PM
I will ask you to, instead of assuming thing about me like " think that there is a mysterious and undetectable force in the universe that "Does things" and sometime smiles upon us and acts in our favour" or that "You have missed the point" or "In your theology, whether or not it is "bad" is irrelevant" Ask questions...do not draw conclusions on the little you know about my views...or the answers I gave to others than you. I will gladly answer them.
I also ask to you that you answer my questions instead of presenting a case about something completely different than my question. It will help the discussion to go along.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 13, 2014, 03:25:34 PM
luk,
I guess that the fact that luck does not seem to favor anyone for any particular reason is not good enough proof for you.
Luck appears to be completely random in nature and predictable by the laws of averages is not enough for you.
a guy playing roulette in vegas will run out of luck no matter how long his streak of luck has run.  Eventually if you play long enough your luck will run out.  Almost the exact way that the laws of statistics averages would predict.
Although these are not hard facts they lead you to a conclusion that makes luck look more like a convergence of averages and desired outcome.  Rather than a sentient being determining fate.
and of course I could turn the question around on you.
Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is YES, people can get lucky) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?
and absolutely people do get lucky.  but luck does not appear to be something tangible predictable or guided.
I am not saying it is enough or not enough. I am asking if YOU feel that it is enough. That's it.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Defiance on May 13, 2014, 03:34:38 PM
luck is an absolute fact.

The cause may be miraculous or coincidental in nature but luck happens and people have runs of luck.

Good luck IMO is where a miraculous or coincidental event happens that is in keeping with ones desire.

Bad luck IMO is where a miraculous or coincidental event happens that is counter to ones desires.
Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is YES, people can get lucky) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?
Evidence? Go try it yourself.

Get a nerf gun, the one that mimics a revolver with six barrels.

Take 5, not 6, nerf darts and stick them into five barrels. Now you have all but one barrel filled. Give the barrel a spin, and close your eyes and take a shot at your head.

If you did not get shot, is that luck? Or is it just an extremely unlikely event that just happened?

There, you will have your own evidence as to what luck is, and if it is real.
Please answer to this.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 13, 2014, 03:43:25 PM
Please answer to this.
Why would I answer your question when you don't bother answering mine?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Defiance on May 13, 2014, 03:46:11 PM
Please answer to this.
Why would I answer your question when you don't bother answering mine?
Because you don't bother answering mine, first.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Graybeard on May 13, 2014, 03:51:02 PM
I will ask you to, instead of assuming thing about me like " think that there is a mysterious and undetectable force in the universe that "Does things" and sometime smiles upon us and acts in our favour"
I can only assume that your excellent command of English deserted you
Quote
or that "You have missed the point"
Which you have
Quote
or "In your theology, whether or not it is "bad" is irrelevant" Ask questions...do not draw conclusions on the little you know about my views...
That is not a “view” it is a conclusion from what you wrote. You may wish to give us your views[1]
Quote
Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is YES, people can get lucky)
You misunderstand. My point is people say they are lucky. It is a question of language. People use the word “luck” and its derivatives but they should not think that there is an actual thing called “luck”.

“Luck” is a description. It is similar to “blue” -> it does not have an existence other than as a convenient description.

I think I have demonstrated that “luck” of itself, does not exist.
Quote
Do you feel that your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?

Yes, no or other?
I am content that a reasonably intelligent person would be able to follow my explanation and that my explanation is accurate.

The thing is, I do not need to “prove” anything. I have explained something to you. At this point, the only thing you can say is, “I don’t understand.” (or you could show that my logic is wrong.)

As proof that I do not need to prove anything, the point has been laid out by Pianodwarf, a senior WWGHA member:

It's a burden of proof issue.  […] the one claiming that [something exists] […] bears a greater burden of proof than the [denier] because the one claiming [something exists] is making a claim that extends ontology, and such claims always carry a greater burden of proof than claims that an ontological extension does not exist. – Pianodwarf

You claim there is such a thing as luck: prove it, and define what it is and its nature.

You are good at answering questions with questions but you seem incapable of telling us what your views are. Do you have views? What are they? How do you rationalise them?

 1. If you have any
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 13, 2014, 04:08:48 PM
I will ask you to, instead of assuming thing about me like " think that there is a mysterious and undetectable force in the universe that "Does things" and sometime smiles upon us and acts in our favour"
I can only assume that your excellent command of English deserted you
Quote
or that "You have missed the point"
Which you have
Quote
or "In your theology, whether or not it is "bad" is irrelevant" Ask questions...do not draw conclusions on the little you know about my views...
That is not a “view” it is a conclusion from what you wrote. You may wish to give us your views[1]
Quote
Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is YES, people can get lucky)
You misunderstand. My point is people say they are lucky. It is a question of language. People use the word “luck” and its derivatives but they should not think that there is an actual thing called “luck”.

“Luck” is a description. It is similar to “blue” -> it does not have an existence other than as a convenient description.

I think I have demonstrated that “luck” of itself, does not exist.
Quote
Do you feel that your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?

Yes, no or other?
I am content that a reasonably intelligent person would be able to follow my explanation and that my explanation is accurate.

The thing is, I do not need to “prove” anything. I have explained something to you. At this point, the only thing you can say is, “I don’t understand.” (or you could show that my logic is wrong.)

As proof that I do not need to prove anything, the point has been laid out by Pianodwarf, a senior WWGHA member:

It's a burden of proof issue.  […] the one claiming that [something exists] […] bears a greater burden of proof than the [denier] because the one claiming [something exists] is making a claim that extends ontology, and such claims always carry a greater burden of proof than claims that an ontological extension does not exist. – Pianodwarf

You claim there is such a thing as luck: prove it, and define what it is and its nature.

You are good at answering questions with questions but you seem incapable of telling us what your views are. Do you have views? What are they? How do you rationalise them?
 1. If you have any
I purposely did not state if I believe that there IS or is NOT such a thing as luck. I asked if someone believe there was such a thing so it would be that person who would state "luck exist" or "luck does not exist" and the burden of proof lied with them.
You claimed that luck did not exist. So I asked you to prove it, and (in my opinion) you did.
I then asked you if you were satisfied with the quality of proof you given us. And you said Yes.
I'm glad that all you need for proof of not existence of luck is saying "it does not exist because people don't understand the definition correctly" I am paraphrasing of course, how would you formulate the reason in one phrase?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: JoeNobody on May 13, 2014, 04:44:05 PM
The old man worked on his farm with his son. One day, a horse wandered onto his farm. The villagers came to him and said, "How lucky!". The old man replied "Perhaps."

Then, while his son was trying to break the horse, it threw him, and broke his leg. The villagers came and said, "How unlucky!". The old man replied, "Perhaps".

Then the army came by and took every able bodied young man to fight in the war. The old man's son, having a broken leg, was left behind. The villagers came and said, "How lucky!". The old man replied, "Perhaps".

...

I don't use the word "luck" to describe fortunate events. I remain unconvinced that "luck" (invisible, unknowable forces) exists. I am convinced that a confluence of events (some known; some unknown) can occur to produce desirable results.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 14, 2014, 12:33:02 AM

Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is NO, people cannot get lucky) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?

Evidence of what? You are still stonewalling and refusing to meet the challenge that has been set before you. That is fucking epic dishonesty and I will take it as your admission of defeat. You've been asked to meet a pretty simple task - to demonstrate these extraordinary claims about "the supernatural" and "God" (whatever that means), and yet at every-single-turn instead of actually meeting the challenge (like any sane person) you obfuscate, dance around the issue, try to change the subject, or try to shift the burden of proof. These tactics of yours aren't helping you get one tiny iota closer to showing that the deity "Yahweh" you believe in is anything other than fiction - and it shows. What your actions demonstrate to me is that you-do-not-care whether or not your beliefs are true. You just want to believe, what you want to believe, because you want to believe.

If you disagree, then stop obfuscating and actually provide the demonstrable extraordinary evidence required to justify your extraordinary claims - or...admit you cannot. Simply attempting to compare something like the linguistic concept of "luck" is just another one of your false analogies. References to human conventions and linguistic tools such as "luck" or "love" have no bearing on this discussion - and are really just an attempt to change the subject. You have claimed that "Yahweh" exists, actually manifests in the world, and does "miracles". And yet for some odd reason you think it's all-good if you just shift the burden of proof instead of actually providing the evidence. Do you see how dishonest this is? With your actions here you are basically showing that you can't meet the challenge and that you do-not-care to. Why should we even waste or time with someone like you? Are you even open to the possibility that your beliefs are in error? If so, then stop dodging.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 14, 2014, 12:36:52 AM

Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is NO, people cannot get lucky) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?

Evidence of what? You are still stonewalling and refusing to meet the challenge that has been set before you. That is fucking epic dishonesty and I will take it as your admission of defeat. You've been asked to meet a pretty simple task - to demonstrate these extraordinary claims about "the supernatural" and "God" (whatever that means), and yet at every-single-turn instead of actually meeting the challenge (like any sane person) you obfuscate, dance around the issue, try to change the subject, or try to shift the burden of proof. These tactics of yours aren't helping you get one tiny iota closer to showing that the deity "Yahweh" you believe in is anything other than fiction - and it shows.
Evidence supporting the fact that people cannot get lucky. (since you claimed that there is no such thing as luck)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 14, 2014, 12:49:51 AM

Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is NO, people cannot get lucky) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?

Evidence of what? You are still stonewalling and refusing to meet the challenge that has been set before you. That is fucking epic dishonesty and I will take it as your admission of defeat. You've been asked to meet a pretty simple task - to demonstrate these extraordinary claims about "the supernatural" and "God" (whatever that means), and yet at every-single-turn instead of actually meeting the challenge (like any sane person) you obfuscate, dance around the issue, try to change the subject, or try to shift the burden of proof. These tactics of yours aren't helping you get one tiny iota closer to showing that the deity "Yahweh" you believe in is anything other than fiction - and it shows.
Evidence supporting the fact that people cannot get lucky. (since you claimed that there is no such thing as luck)

This is another one of your equivocation fallacies. I reject your meaning and use of that term, as do I reject the assertion that there is some "thing" out there called "luck". If you think there is such a thing then the burden is on you (and again, your irrational attempt to shift the burden of proof only shows your intense dishonesty throughout nearly the entirety of this discussion). Furthermore, I could be agnostic about the whole thing and still the burden of proof lies with you, regarding the claims you have made - and yet continue to dodge.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 14, 2014, 12:59:51 AM
Evidence supporting the fact that people cannot get lucky. (since you claimed that there is no such thing as luck)
This is another one of your equivocation fallacies. I reject your meaning and use of that term, as do I reject the assertion that there is some "thing" out there called "luck". If you think there is such a thing then the burden is on you (and again, your irrational attempt to shift the burden of proof only shows your intense dishonesty throughout nearly the entirety of this discussion). Furthermore, I could be agnostic about the whole thing and still the burden of proof lies with you, regarding the claims you have made - and yet continue to dodge.

Well too bad. You cannot reject something that you already used as an argument. YOU stated (not ME) that there was no such thing as luck. The burden of proof lies with YOU. I intentionally did not state anything about luck.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 14, 2014, 01:05:26 AM
Luk, if you had a car crash, and were propelled out of the side window, because you didn't use your safety belt that morning, when usually you do. This action saved you, and you could see that the whole car was crumpled. Would you consider this good "luck".
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 14, 2014, 01:08:47 AM
If you want links.
You can read on This miracle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bernadette_of_Lourdes#Exhumations)
Or Those one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lourdes_Medical_Bureau#Notable_cases)

I don't think you realize how desperate you are being. If God is healing people by prayer, then the effects should be much more obvious than this.

MS can be cured when your immune system decides to change. Why MS occurs is not even known, so having is disappear is not really a miracle. It could be because you had an antibiotic that changed your bowel flora.
http://www.healthline.com/health-news/ms-bacteria-identified-as-possible-environmental-trigger-for-ms-102313

In the case of cancer, modern treatments are using your immune system to fight it. Your immune system can, at any time, decide to get rid of the cancer. The cancer is mutating all the time, so it can suddenly enter a phase when your immune system detects it.

In order to have a proof, you need to have a disease where the progress of the disease is definitely known. I don't know why Eh is currently shooting himself in the foot by saying that cancer is predictable.

Do you believe people when they tell you they were lucky? Do you believe in luck?
Please, answer my question before asking me anything else.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: magicmiles on May 14, 2014, 01:11:26 AM
The old man worked on his farm with his son. One day, a horse wandered onto his farm. The villagers came to him and said, "How lucky!". The old man replied "Perhaps."

Then, while his son was trying to break the horse, it threw him, and broke his leg. The villagers came and said, "How unlucky!". The old man replied, "Perhaps".

Then the army came by and took every able bodied young man to fight in the war. The old man's son, having a broken leg, was left behind. The villagers came and said, "How lucky!". The old man replied, "Perhaps".

I like that story. I'm going to give it the green thumbs up. You lucky bastard!


I don't use the word "luck" to describe fortunate events. I remain unconvinced that "luck" (invisible, unknowable forces) exists.

I've never heard luck described as any sort of force before.




 I am convinced that a confluence of events (some known; some unknown) can occur to produce desirable results.

Yes, and we call it 'luck', purely as a word to describe the occurrence in a way that is almost universally understood.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 14, 2014, 01:13:34 AM
Evidence supporting the fact that people cannot get lucky. (since you claimed that there is no such thing as luck)
This is another one of your equivocation fallacies. I reject your meaning and use of that term, as do I reject the assertion that there is some "thing" out there called "luck". If you think there is such a thing then the burden is on you (and again, your irrational attempt to shift the burden of proof only shows your intense dishonesty throughout nearly the entirety of this discussion). Furthermore, I could be agnostic about the whole thing and still the burden of proof lies with you, regarding the claims you have made - and yet continue to dodge.

Well too bad. You cannot reject something that you already used as an argument. YOU stated (not ME) that there was no such thing as luck. The burden of proof lies with YOU. I intentionally did not state anything about luck.

And in doing so, you dishonestly attempted to both change the subject and shift the fucking burden of proof - asshole. Way to be Christlike there! When a challenge is put before you, you just cut, run, and change the subject. Real slick!

I stated that "luck" is just a term and I rejected your use of it. I also reject your bullshit attempt at some kind of dishonest "Gotcha" nonsense. That was the context by which I was using the term you used (which was irrational once again since that isn't the subject Mr. red herring). I know you don't like having the burden of proof (clearly you don't because of how desperate you are in avoiding providing the extraordinary evidence for these supernatural claims you keep making) but the burden is still yours regardless. If you have actually reliable, independently verifiable evidence then present it or just be honest and admit you can't. Is it really that hard?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 14, 2014, 01:18:30 AM
It was pretty lame, Luk; even by your normal standards of lameness.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 14, 2014, 01:29:02 AM
It was pretty lame, Luk; even by your normal standards of lameness.
If you want links.
You can read on This miracle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bernadette_of_Lourdes#Exhumations)
Or Those one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lourdes_Medical_Bureau#Notable_cases)

I don't think you realize how desperate you are being. If God is healing people by prayer, then the effects should be much more obvious than this.

MS can be cured when your immune system decides to change. Why MS occurs is not even known, so having is disappear is not really a miracle. It could be because you had an antibiotic that changed your bowel flora.
http://www.healthline.com/health-news/ms-bacteria-identified-as-possible-environmental-trigger-for-ms-102313

In the case of cancer, modern treatments are using your immune system to fight it. Your immune system can, at any time, decide to get rid of the cancer. The cancer is mutating all the time, so it can suddenly enter a phase when your immune system detects it.

In order to have a proof, you need to have a disease where the progress of the disease is definitely known. I don't know why Eh is currently shooting himself in the foot by saying that cancer is predictable.

Do you believe people when they tell you they were lucky? Do you believe in luck?
Please, answer my question before asking me anything else.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 14, 2014, 01:32:33 AM
Evidence supporting the fact that people cannot get lucky. (since you claimed that there is no such thing as luck)
This is another one of your equivocation fallacies. I reject your meaning and use of that term, as do I reject the assertion that there is some "thing" out there called "luck". If you think there is such a thing then the burden is on you (and again, your irrational attempt to shift the burden of proof only shows your intense dishonesty throughout nearly the entirety of this discussion). Furthermore, I could be agnostic about the whole thing and still the burden of proof lies with you, regarding the claims you have made - and yet continue to dodge.

Well too bad. You cannot reject something that you already used as an argument. YOU stated (not ME) that there was no such thing as luck. The burden of proof lies with YOU. I intentionally did not state anything about luck.

And in doing so, you dishonestly attempted to both change the subject and shift the fucking burden of proof - asshole. Way to be Christlike there! When a challenge is put before you, you just cut, run, and change the subject. Real slick!

I stated that "luck" is just a term and I rejected your use of it. I also reject your bullshit attempt at some kind of dishonest "Gotcha" nonsense. That was the context by which I was using the term you used (which was irrational once again since that isn't the subject Mr. red herring). I know you don't like having the burden of proof (clearly you don't because of how desperate you are in avoiding providing the extraordinary evidence for these supernatural claims you keep making) but the burden is still yours regardless. If you have actually reliable, independently verifiable evidence then present it or just be honest and admit you can't. Is it really that hard?
Haha. You are so cornered and angry that you don't even know what you are talking about. Take a deep breath. Re read the exchange we have between each other and tell me where didn't I prove what I stated before? And where do you get angry and insult me when the burden of proof is on you since the beginning.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 14, 2014, 01:32:57 AM

Please, answer my question before asking me anything else.

Do you not see how unbelievably hypocritical this is?? I asked you to backup your claims to the supernatural and you dodged them (by trying to change the subject). Then, you in your desperation veer off into trying to go on the offense demanding that others answer your red herring question. WOW. That level of dissonance and arrogance is astounding.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 14, 2014, 01:35:11 AM
Haha. You are so cornered and angry that you don't even know what you are talking about. Take a deep breath. Re read the exchange we have between each other and tell me where didn't I prove what I stated before? And where do you get angry and insult me when the burden of proof is on you since the beginning.

You made claims to the supernatural and "God", in post #27 specifically, (trying to justify such beliefs by use of hear-say and anecdote) and somehow the burden is on me? No. You sir, need to re-read the exchange because it is you who said "I'm having trouble proving this..." and then proceeded to attempt to change the subject.

Miracles happen, even today.
He does manifest in the physical world.\
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 14, 2014, 01:48:42 AM
Haha. You are so cornered and angry that you don't even know what you are talking about. Take a deep breath. Re read the exchange we have between each other and tell me where didn't I prove what I stated before? And where do you get angry and insult me when the burden of proof is on you since the beginning.

You made claims to the supernatural and "God", in post #27 specifically, (trying to justify such beliefs by use of hear-say and anecdote) and somehow the burden is on me? No. You sir, need to re-read the exchange because it is you who said "I'm having trouble proving this..." and then proceeded to attempt to change the subject.

Miracles happen, even today.
He does manifest in the physical world.\
I remember answering those with examples where the word "miracle" was used. If you don't like the word they use, go argue with them. I proved that there are things called miracle that happens even today. No more burden of proof there anymore.
As for God's manifestation in the word...well you already have my testimony about how He manifested himself in my life. No more burden of proof there anymore neither.

Now, let me ask you again the same questions that was ask the same night these 2 assertions of mine where made.
Median do you believe people when they tell you they were lucky? Do you believe in luck?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 14, 2014, 01:58:38 AM
Quote
Do you believe people when they tell you they were lucky? Do you believe in luck?
Please, answer my question before asking me anything else.

I answered you on page 3 of this thread.

I do not consider it a privilege to interact with you Luk. I'm not waiting on your replies.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 14, 2014, 02:07:39 AM
Quote
Do you believe people when they tell you they were lucky? Do you believe in luck?
Please, answer my question before asking me anything else.

I answered you on page 3 of this thread.

I do not consider it a privilege to interact with you Luk. I'm not waiting on your replies.
Sorry, can't find it. Could you quote your answer?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 14, 2014, 02:26:52 AM
It appears to be the post after your question.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 14, 2014, 02:36:32 AM
"Luck exists in a subjective sense" could you back up that claim?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: magicmiles on May 14, 2014, 02:48:22 AM
Luk, this is actually pretty clear. Luck is nothing more than a word which is commonly used to describe a piece of good or bad fortune. I seriously doubt anybody who uses the word intends anything further by its use.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 14, 2014, 03:20:54 AM
MM good question, do you have an actual refutation or counter argument?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: magicmiles on May 14, 2014, 03:38:06 AM
I'm not entirely sure what you're asking me to refute.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 14, 2014, 04:04:14 AM
MM i do apologise i misread luks last post as yours.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 14, 2014, 04:07:57 AM
Luck = superstition = miracles



http://blogs.wsj.com/numbersguy/mathematicians-take-on-luck-930/
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 14, 2014, 04:12:25 AM
"Luck exists in a subjective sense" could you back up that claim?

So you found it, did you?

It doesn't exist with the same subjectivity as the colour red. It's not hardwired into our brains. It is a subjective opinion, based on one's cultural bias. If you'd care to answer the last question I asked about your car crash, I will show you how subjective it is.



Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: epidemic on May 14, 2014, 07:07:06 AM
luk,
I guess that the fact that luck does not seem to favor anyone for any particular reason is not good enough proof for you.
Luck appears to be completely random in nature and predictable by the laws of averages is not enough for you.
a guy playing roulette in vegas will run out of luck no matter how long his streak of luck has run.  Eventually if you play long enough your luck will run out.  Almost the exact way that the laws of statistics averages would predict.
Although these are not hard facts they lead you to a conclusion that makes luck look more like a convergence of averages and desired outcome.  Rather than a sentient being determining fate.
and of course I could turn the question around on you.
Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is YES, people can get lucky) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?
and absolutely people do get lucky.  but luck does not appear to be something tangible predictable or guided.
I am not saying it is enough or not enough. I am asking if YOU feel that it is enough. That's it.

Well clearly I think it is enough, I am firmly convinced that luck is a random convergence of coincidence and desired outcome.  I believe the evidence clearly points that direction.  But you seem to have some reservations on my evidence and I am hoping you tell me/us why my proofs/evidence are not enough. 

I can take your ~"lucky guy" and scientifically evaluate his luck and I will find that he falls right into the bell curve with everyone else.  Scientifically I doubt you could present someone who you think is lucky and have them come up as abnormally lucky. 

When I drive through an intersection 1\10th of a second ahead of someone In a cement truck ran a red light hitting a family of 4 behind me killing 3 and leaving the 4th a 5 year old in a persistent vegetative state.  One could say I was lucky because that morning I decided to brush my teeth for two more strokes and rub my dogs head before leaving.

I think you are implying that luck is somehow guided by some hand and dealt out to certain people at certain moments.




I guess I would have to ask luk, how is luck different than the random convergence of coincidence and desired outcome?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: voodoo child on May 14, 2014, 08:43:00 AM
In my experience there is no such thing as luck.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Graybeard on May 14, 2014, 09:09:28 AM
Haha. You are so cornered and angry that you don't even know what you are talking about.
I would describe it as a very natural reaction after being presented with someone as terminally stubborn as yourself. Your question (whatever it is) does not require an answer.

If I say to you, "Paint dries because the solvent evaporates off leaving behind a residue." You cannot then say, "That is not proof that paint dries." and then claim that paint never dries.

Luck is a description of a set of circumstances and has no existence of itself. You have to accept that. The English language is such that we do say, (see Magicmiles's post above) "You were lucky." but this does not make "luck" a real thing.

Nobody but you seems to believe in magical forces. I think you should explain why you do.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: epidemic on May 14, 2014, 10:08:33 AM
In my experience there is no such thing as luck.

You would not describe it as lucky if you were driving down the road and a 100 year oak tree fell where your car had been 1 second before? 

No amount of preparation helped you avoid the impact, no skill, you just were not hit because you were one second ahead of schedule.

I would say that was luck, just dumb luck.

Graybeard,

You do not believe the word that describes coincidental good fortune?  I do not see luck as there even being a question as to luck's existence.  Luck is a word that describes:

2. good fortune; advantage or success, considered as the result of chance: He had no luck finding work. 
3. a combination of circumstances, events, etc., operating by chance to bring good or ill to a person: She's had nothing but bad luck all year.

or are you just saying that there are no magical forces behind it.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: screwtape on May 14, 2014, 10:25:50 AM
And in doing so, you dishonestly attempted to both change the subject and shift the fucking burden of proof - asshole. Way to be Christlike there! When a challenge is put before you, you just cut, run, and change the subject. Real slick!

Median,

Dial it back a notch.  I understand these discussions are frustrating.  But let's please remember than name calling does not make a good argument. 

thanks

Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 14, 2014, 12:17:33 PM
I think you are implying that luck is somehow guided by some hand and dealt out to certain people at certain moments.
No. That is not what I'm implying.
Quote
I guess I would have to ask luk, how is luck different than the random convergence of coincidence and desired outcome?
For me, no diference. I thank you for your answers.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 14, 2014, 12:20:39 PM
Luck is a description of a set of circumstances and has no existence of itself. You have to accept that. The English language is such that we do say, (see Magicmiles's post above) "You were lucky." but this does not make "luck" a real thing.
Then, what would make "luck" a "real thing"?

Quote
Nobody but you seems to believe in magical forces. I think you should explain why you do.
I don't believe in magical forces. I just believe in God. To explain why I believe in God...well this is not the place is it?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: G-Roll on May 14, 2014, 12:38:48 PM
I don't believe in magical forces. I just believe in God. To explain why I believe in God...well this is not the place is it?

Odd. I could never tell the difference between preforming a magic ritual or casting a spell from calling on the powers of Jehovah to do your bidding. Either way you are asking to borrow some divine power to accomplish a task you feel is worthy of the ritual, prayer, or incantation.

What is it that separates magic from prayer anyway?

Now I have the McDonalds song stuck in my head. "Do you believe in magic, and I hope you do, You will always have a friend wearing big red shoes."
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: screwtape on May 14, 2014, 12:55:41 PM
I don't believe in magical forces. I just believe in God.

Your second sentence negates the first.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 14, 2014, 02:19:39 PM
I don't believe in magical forces. I just believe in God.
Your second sentence negates the first.
Ok...i'm listening. What could possibly prove that?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 14, 2014, 02:40:38 PM
Luk just likes the attention, most xtians would just call him a nut-job and ignore him. here people spend the the time and luk YOU ARE NOT WORTH MORE THAN MY TIME..
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 14, 2014, 02:46:55 PM
Luk just likes the attention, most xtians would just call him a nut-job and ignore him. here people spend the the time and luk YOU ARE NOT WORTH MORE THAN MY TIME..
Said the guy who took his time to write this un-useful comment.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: screwtape on May 14, 2014, 03:06:54 PM
Ok...i'm listening. What could possibly prove that?

It would be a logical proof, would it not?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 14, 2014, 03:11:06 PM
Luk my responses to you have been motivated by pity.  everyone deserves respect but yr taking advantage. i am just more xtian than xtians.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: nogodsforme on May 14, 2014, 03:12:53 PM
Lukvance, why are you now asking about luck, when you have not adequately addressed the previous questions? Can you explain what is the point of that line of discussion before we waste a lot more time with it? Are you going to dance around like before and redefine terms until you get a description of "luck" that you can attribute to your god at work? Or what?

Please show that I am mistaken about you, and give us something real and not just pulled out of your a$$. I don't want to give up on you yet, because although you are a real pain in the tuckus, you do not seem like too bad of a guy-- for a theist.

If your past performance is indicative of your future behavior, we will not get any clear or informative answers from you.

PS I am not only female; I am the resident black dreadlocked commie mommy here at WWGHA.  :-*
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 14, 2014, 04:41:14 PM
Lukvance, why are you now asking about luck, when you have not adequately addressed the previous questions? Can you explain what is the point of that line of discussion before we waste a lot more time with it? Are you going to dance around like before and redefine terms until you get a description of "luck" that you can attribute to your god at work? Or what?

Please show that I am mistaken about you, and give us something real and not just pulled out of your a$$. I don't want to give up on you yet, because although you are a real pain in the tuckus, you do not seem like too bad of a guy-- for a theist.

If your past performance is indicative of your future behavior, we will not get any clear or informative answers from you.

PS I am not only female; I am the resident black dreadlocked commie mommy here at WWGHA.  :-*
I am asking about luck because as you said so correctly yourself I "did not addressed the previous question" in a way it would please you. So I though , what is their way? So I asked the question then asked to back it up so I can get a feeling of what kind of backing up you are expecting from me.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 14, 2014, 04:51:52 PM
Its not about pleasing anyone. it has more to do with making sense which you have not done.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Jesuis on May 14, 2014, 05:34:27 PM
Resurrection of the dead seems to be one of those.
"Thou shalt not kill"
Ten plagues of Egypt.

Just a few possible examples.
What here is your belief and what is the truth. Or do you believe everything you read about God. At the end of the day it is you that have to make a judgement on truth and falsehood. What resonates true to you.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: nogodsforme on May 14, 2014, 05:55:53 PM
Lukvance, you refer to "their way" as if there is a special atheist way of describing reality and backing up claims. We do not want anything special from you. We want the same level of clear, basic explanation you would expect if you were ordering a meal at a restaurant, buying a pair of shoes or choosing a movie to watch.

When you go to see a movie or select a video, you expect that the previews, critical reviews, description of the plot, actors, etc. will be an accurate reflection of what the movie will show. You would not be pleased to pay money for a movie described everywhere as an sci-fi action film about superheroes, and get a foreign language costume drama set in 18th century France instead. That is the equivalent of what you are giving us.

You say you will give us one thing (like explain how love exists where there are no living beings, for example) and instead you give us a lot of different things, none of which are what you said you would do. And then you act as though we are being unreasonable when we keep asking you to do what you said you would.

Do you act like this at home, work or school? I cannot imagine life would go well for you if you do.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 14, 2014, 06:58:42 PM
you give us a lot of different things
These are the things I would want to know before buying the product. Your standard is different from mine. I'm trying to learn yours.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 14, 2014, 07:06:37 PM

I remember answering those with examples where the word "miracle" was used. If you don't like the word they use, go argue with them. I proved that there are things called miracle that happens even today. No more burden of proof there anymore.

This is just another one of your irrational attempts at argumentation (this time the equivocation fallacy). I didn't ask you if there were things that people "call" miracles. I asked you to demonstrate your claim that "miracles occur". We're talking about actually demonstrating that a violation of the laws of known physics actually took place not what people can just CLAIM! Are you even capable of understanding the difference or are you really just that gullible to take someone else' word for it when claims to the supernatural or miraculous are made? "Well, they claimed it was a miracle" is not a demonstration that a miracle actually occurred. I'm sorry that your brain missed it but it's not surprising why.

Again, you need more than just hear-say (which is all you just provided here). The burden is still yours. 

As for God's manifestation in the word...well you already have my testimony about how He manifested himself in my life. No more burden of proof there anymore neither.

Your "testimony" is not sufficient (just as a Muslim "testimony" or Mormon "testimony" would not be sufficient for you). You need actual demonstrable evidence (not "because I said so" - which is all you just gave here). Again, you are practicing hypocrisy and a double standard because you wouldn't accept these claims from religions that you think are false - all the while you are desperately trying to obfuscate and shift away the burden of proof. It's not working.

The burden still lies upon you to actually demonstrate your claims (not just make more claims, make hear-say, or give anecdote). For the 100th time, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. As it stands right now, it seems you don't even have ordinary evidence - let alone the mountains of it you would need for it to be overwhelming.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 14, 2014, 07:22:13 PM
I am asking about luck because as you said so correctly yourself I "did not addressed the previous question" in a way it would please you. So I though , what is their way? So I asked the question then asked to back it up so I can get a feeling of what kind of backing up you are expecting from me.

I already told you what kind of backing up was expected of you (quite specifically), and apparently you completely ignored it.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 14, 2014, 07:27:13 PM
you give us a lot of different things
These are the things I would want to know before buying the product. Your standard is different from mine. I'm trying to learn yours.

I don't buy this for a second. Your standard is likely the same as ours (generally speaking)... except for one case: your assumed theology. In all other matters you likely practice healthy skepticism and would require ample amounts of evidence to justify extraordinary claims (such as if a salesman was at the door making similar type supernatural claims about a product). It's a double standard you are practicing - mixed with confirmation bias.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 14, 2014, 07:27:30 PM

I remember answering those with examples where the word "miracle" was used. If you don't like the word they use, go argue with them. I proved that there are things called miracle that happens even today. No more burden of proof there anymore.

This is just another one of your irrational attempts at argumentation (this time the equivocation fallacy). I didn't ask you if there were things that people "call" miracles. I asked you to demonstrate your claim that "miracles occur". We're talking about actually demonstrating that a violation of the laws of known physics actually took place not what people can just CLAIM! Are you even capable of understanding the difference or are you really just that gullible to take someone else' word for it when claims to the supernatural or miraculous are made? "Well, they claimed it was a miracle" is not a demonstration that a miracle actually occurred. I'm sorry that your brain missed it but it's not surprising why.

Again, you need more than just hear-say (which is all you just provided here). The burden is still yours. 

As for God's manifestation in the word...well you already have my testimony about how He manifested himself in my life. No more burden of proof there anymore neither.

Your "testimony" is not sufficient (just as a Muslim "testimony" or Mormon "testimony" would not be sufficient for you). You need actual demonstrable evidence (not "because I said so" - which is all you just gave here). Again, you are practicing hypocrisy and a double standard because you wouldn't accept these claims from religions that you think are false - all the while you are desperately trying to obfuscate and shift away the burden of proof. It's not working.

The burden still lies upon you to actually demonstrate your claims (not just make more claims, make hear-say, or give anecdote). For the 100th time, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. As it stands right now, it seems you don't even have ordinary evidence - let alone the mountains of it you would need for it to be overwhelming.
Yes I know you don't approve of my evidence. I am looking for the kind of evidence that you would approve of.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 14, 2014, 08:09:28 PM
Now your just ignoring others and repeating yourself.


Spambot??
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 14, 2014, 08:12:01 PM
Now your just ignoring others and repeating yourself.
Spambot??
Aren't you a helpful fella. Look at you! :)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 14, 2014, 08:21:33 PM
Yes I know you don't approve of my evidence. I am looking for the kind of evidence that you would approve of.

This completely misses the point. You haven't provided any actual evidence.

-"Because they said it was a miracle" is not evidence. It is hear-say.
-"Because something strange happened and I can't explain it. So it's a miracle" is not evidence. It is an argument from ignorance fallacy.
-"Because I had an experience and I say it was a miracle" is not evidence. It is unreliable anecdote.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 14, 2014, 08:29:35 PM
Yes I know you don't approve of my evidence. I am looking for the kind of evidence that you would approve of.
This completely misses the point. You haven't provided any actual evidence.
-"Because they said it was a miracle" is not evidence. It is hear-say.
-"Because something strange happened and I can't explain it. So it's a miracle" is not evidence. It is an argument from ignorance fallacy.
-"Because I had an experience and I say it was a miracle" is not evidence. It is unreliable anecdote.
I know that these evidence don't look like evidence to you. You made that pretty clear already. Please be patient. I am looking for evidence that will pleases you.
What do you think of the evidences that nogodsforme presented to support her claim (about luck)? Are they sufficient?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: magicmiles on May 14, 2014, 08:45:28 PM
If somebody saw a hand reach down from above with a sign saying "hey there! This is God", would that be a miracle? Or does it need to be witnessed by hundreds of people? Do you need to be able to demonstrate something for it to have happened?

Is the person that saw the giant hand from above justified in worshipping God from that point onwards based on what he saw? Or would he only be justified in doing so if hundreds of others saw what occurred?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 14, 2014, 09:43:02 PM
I know that these evidence don't look like evidence to you. You made that pretty clear already. Please be patient. I am looking for evidence that will pleases you.
What do you think of the evidences that nogodsforme presented to support her claim (about luck)? Are they sufficient?

It is completely and wholly irrelevant as to whether or not I accept someone's definition of "luck". For one, because merely providing a definition for something (like one could for Santa Claus) does not in any way, shape, or form make said thing actual or real. And second, what most people refer to as luck (i.e. - "that which happens") is not a supernatural claim!!

Must we repeat ourselves a million times? You are making extraordinary claims and as such your extraordinary claims require far more evidence than hear-say, anecdote, or arguments from ignorance or incredulity. Is this really that difficult for you to grasp? Again, if a Muslim or Mormon started giving you the kinds of replies you keep attempting here you would likely reject such assertions (rightly), and that is exactly what you are (and will continue) to experience here.


No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish.
David Hume
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 14, 2014, 09:48:57 PM
I know that these evidence don't look like evidence to you. You made that pretty clear already. Please be patient. I am looking for evidence that will pleases you.
What do you think of the evidences that nogodsforme presented to support her claim (about luck)? Are they sufficient?

It is completely and wholly irrelevant as to whether or not I accept someone's definition of "luck". For one, because merely providing a definition for something (like one could for Santa Claus) does not in any way, shape, or form make said thing actual or real. And second, what most people refer to as luck (i.e. - "that which happens") is not a supernatural claim!!
Must we repeat ourselves a million times? You are making extraordinary claims and as such your extraordinary claims require far more evidence than hear-say, anecdote, or arguments from ignorance or incredulity. Is this really that difficult for you to grasp? Again, if a Muslim or Mormon started giving you the kinds of replies you keep attempting here you would likely reject such assertions (rightly), and that is exactly what you are (and will continue) to experience here.

No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish.
David Hume
I am talking about the evidence that she brought. Where they enough? or do you feel that they are not evidence and that she should bring more to prove her claim?

Be patient, we are almost there.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: magicmiles on May 14, 2014, 10:11:55 PM



No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish.
David Hume

What does he mean by 'establish' a miracle? Does he mean 'convince somebody to believe the miracle occurred'? If so, fair enough. Otherwise it becomes a tree falling in the forest with no one to hear it sort of thing, surely.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: nogodsforme on May 14, 2014, 10:46:58 PM
We are still waiting for any of you theist folks to present us with the same level of evidence for your own faith that you would need in order to accept that another person's (of a different religion) religious claim was true. What kind of evidence would convince you of a religious claim made by a Hindu, Mormon, Scientologist or Vodun believer? I am assuming that none of you believers think that all religions are equally true. So, why do you not believe in Hinduism or Scientology?

If a Hindu told you they saw a giant hand reach down from the clouds holding a statue of Brahma, would you instantly convert and become a Hindu?  If not, why not?

If a Mormon told you that they felt happier while reading the book of Mormon than when they were not reading it, would that convince you that god was really speaking through the book of Mormon? If not, why not?

If a Buddhist told you (as one told me) that she was healed of a serious illness by chanting, would you become a Buddhist? If not, why not?

Let's say that none of these people are lying--they honestly believe that what they are saying is true. When you can explain why you would not (or would) accept their religious claims, you might be able to understand what it is we atheists are asking of you.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 14, 2014, 11:22:49 PM
MM could be a number of ways to demonstrate, god appearing to everyone in the world simultaneously would be one and unambiguously identifying himself as god of the old testament in a way that all including muslims atheists etc would accept, god is god so he could do it.


another way would be to stick with what he told us in scripture and answer prayers like an amputee growing a limb back.

the number if ways is infinite,  we only want one.

hey your pope is divine he could organise a time and place for a given miracle to occurr.

so many options.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 14, 2014, 11:27:53 PM
So, why do you not believe in Hinduism or Scientology?

Being fair, those religions are more ridiculous than Christianity. The object of the desperately religious wannabe is to pick the least absurd religion, that seems like it could be true. Buddhism is a fail, because it's too difficult and alien, and doesn't even pretend to present any proof. Christianity at least pretends to furnish proof. Pretend proof is way more convincing than not pretending to produce any proof. It's like when an Indian guy rings you up and says that your computer has a virus, and Microsoft central has detected it. This is pretend proof, which is way more proofy than just asserting that they would like to install a trojan on your computer.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 14, 2014, 11:29:27 PM
I don't see the relation with healing amputees.
For me, each other religion had something that I didn't like, they restrained my freedom.
I have to confess, if I heard enough testimony from any other religion than Christianity AND if this religion had more believers than Christianity, I might have had another religion. I believe that it is not possible that so many people each year be that much wrong (the number of converts each year)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 14, 2014, 11:43:10 PM
MM could be a number of ways to demonstrate, god appearing to everyone in the world simultaneously would be one and unambiguously identifying himself as god of the old testament in a way that all including muslims atheists etc would accept, god is god so he could do it.

There is a perpetual conflict between a religion's need to survive by getting converts, versus God's opinion of the people he would be saving. Christianity admits this, briefly, in Revelation, by saying that 144000 people will go to heaven. In order to survive, Christianity needs converts that don't get saved, purely to keep the cryptic conversion agenda of God going.

In other words, the harder that God makes it to believe, the more valuable the converts are. God then tortures those who do believe, with "tests".
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 14, 2014, 11:43:57 PM
I don't see the relation with healing amputees.
For me, each other religion had something that I didn't like, they restrained my freedom.
I have to confess, if I heard enough testimony from any other religion than Christianity AND if this religion had more believers than Christianity, I might have had another religion. I believe that it is not possible that so many people each year be that much wrong (the number of converts each year)

That's funny. Muslims use this same rationalization. It fails for them and everyone else who tries to use it (including you and the Mormons). Numbers of converts, amount who believe, or the amount of passion a group has for something bears no relation on it's truth value. You should know that.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: nogodsforme on May 14, 2014, 11:44:45 PM
I don't see the relation with healing amputees.
For me, each other religion had something that I didn't like, they restrained my freedom.
I have to confess, if I heard enough testimony from any other religion than Christianity AND if this religion had more believers than Christianity, I might have had another religion. I believe that it is not possible that so many people each year be that much wrong (the number of converts each year)

Over 1.5 billion Muslims cannot be wrong, agreed? Not to mention the 1 billion Hindus. Added together you have far more people than all the Christians in the world.

Islam currently has the fastest rate of gaining converts worldwide and is growing faster than any other religion. You will no doubt be hearing more testimonies from Muslims as the numbers of converts grow. The fact that some Muslims are willing to die for their faith is clear evidence of the strength of their beliefs. Islam must be true, because nobody would die for a lie, would they?

I await your conversion from Christianity to Islam, based on the numbers of believers, and the intensity of their faith. Be warned, however.  Apostasy--abandoning the faith-- is punishable by death in some countries. Islam does not allow take-backs.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 14, 2014, 11:47:35 PM
A big expense is made to convert xtians with lots of idolatry, coercion and corruption. i knew one guy went to a different evangelical church every week cos he enjoyed the mind fuk of converting..... over and over.

kids are traumatised into it.

indigenous are corrupted or forced into it.


evangelicals have lots of short termers and drop outs from my experience .


sick xtian fuks often use material bribes to convert poor people.

xtians were in Aceh after it was wiped out offering new color televisions to converts when they needed electricity water and medical supplies. were telling survivors barely alive that this happened cos they believed in the wrong god so he punished them and will do it again if they don't convert.

so numbers don't mean much.

anyhoo more people admit to being gay every year, ob your logic you should also become gay.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 14, 2014, 11:47:57 PM
I believe that it is not possible that so many people each year be that much wrong (the number of converts each year)

That's Islam.

Christianity is expiring in western countries, and gaining a foothold in 3rd world countries, where indoctrination of the underdogs and undereducated is easier. It could easily spread into China, since the Chinese religions are a bit of a mess. China is fertile grounds. Do you really think it's a virtue to be able to spread into new lands? Is your mentality all about conversion? A new disease always does well, when introduced into a naive population.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 14, 2014, 11:48:14 PM
I am talking about the evidence that she brought. Where they enough? or do you feel that they are not evidence and that she should bring more to prove her claim?

Be patient, we are almost there.

No, we are not "almost there". You are off in goo-goo land rabbit trails while we are trying to get you to come back to the subject at hand and actually meet the challenge before you (which obviously you cannot and have no interest in doing). I know this BS trap you are trying to set and I'm not buying it, sorry.

Stop trying to change the subject and provide the demonstrable evidence for your claims to the supernatural.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 14, 2014, 11:51:56 PM
Atheism is growing every year to. not many jews seem to become xtians in there thousands .
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 14, 2014, 11:53:42 PM
I am talking about the evidence that she brought. Where they enough? or do you feel that they are not evidence and that she should bring more to prove her claim?

Be patient, we are almost there.

No, we are not "almost there". You are off in goo-goo land rabbit trails while we are trying to get you to come back to the subject at hand and actually meet the challenge before you (which obviously you cannot and have no interest in doing). I know this BS trap you are trying to set and I'm not buying it, sorry.

Stop trying to change the subject and provide the demonstrable evidence for your claims to the supernatural.
I promise you. We will get there. I am not trying to change the subject. Be patient.
Tell me, about nogodsforme evidence was it enough?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: magicmiles on May 14, 2014, 11:54:24 PM
.

xtians were in Aceh after it was wiped out offering new color televisions to converts when they needed electricity water and medical supplies. were telling survivors barely alive that this happened cos they believed in the wrong god so he punished them and will do it again if they don't convert.


Were they? Links?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 14, 2014, 11:54:40 PM
Luk what made you conclude your denomination was the correct one and not another one?


Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 14, 2014, 11:55:48 PM
Atheism is growing every year to. not many jews seem to become xtians in there thousands .
Really? Any proof of that? (Atheism is growing)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 14, 2014, 11:56:43 PM
For me, each other religion had something that I didn't like, they restrained my freedom.

So then it's not really about whether a religious claim can be demonstrated to be true or not for you. It's all about personal preference? Like ice cream flavors? Is choosing a religion, then, like going to McDonald's for you? You just decide that you're going to pick one, walk in, and order the one that tickles your presuppositions the most?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 14, 2014, 11:57:07 PM
Luk what made you conclude your denomination was the correct one and not another one?
Freedom of choice. They were the one who let me feel the most free.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 14, 2014, 11:58:02 PM
For me, each other religion had something that I didn't like, they restrained my freedom.

So then it's not really about whether a religious claim can be demonstrated to be true or not for you. It's all about personal preference? Like ice cream flavors? Is choosing a religion, then, like going to McDonald's for you? You just decide that you're going to pick one, walk in, and order the one that tickles your presuppositions the most?
Christianity was the religion who passed (and is still passing) all the logical blocks I had.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 14, 2014, 11:58:36 PM
MM was on news the xtians were there with peadophiles all trying to get some. sorry no links but watched it on the box.  I trusted the source. i have seen this behaviour in missionaries in local church groups, same pattern.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 14, 2014, 11:58:37 PM
Atheism is growing every year to. not many jews seem to become xtians in there thousands .
Really? Any proof of that? (Atheism is growing)

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/09/survey-one-in-five-americans-is-religiously-unaffiliated/
http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/elizabethdrescher/6925/yet_another_survey_shows__nones__growth_at_record_levels/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/14/atheism-rise-religiosity-decline-in-america_n_1777031.html
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 14, 2014, 11:59:50 PM
Atheism is growing every year to. not many jews seem to become xtians in there thousands .
Really? Any proof of that? (Atheism is growing)

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/09/survey-one-in-five-americans-is-religiously-unaffiliated/
http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/elizabethdrescher/6925/yet_another_survey_shows__nones__growth_at_record_levels/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/14/atheism-rise-religiosity-decline-in-america_n_1777031.html
So, for you, America is the world?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 15, 2014, 12:00:42 AM
For me, each other religion had something that I didn't like, they restrained my freedom.

So then it's not really about whether a religious claim can be demonstrated to be true or not for you. It's all about personal preference? Like ice cream flavors? Is choosing a religion, then, like going to McDonald's for you? You just decide that you're going to pick one, walk in, and order the one that tickles your presuppositions the most?
Christianity was the religion who passed (and is still passing) all the logical blocks I had.

Then you need to go back and re-build those "blocks" b/c (given the amount of fallacies you have attempted here) it's clear that your BS meter is broken.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 15, 2014, 12:01:18 AM
Luk can not be serious. nobody is this superficial .
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 15, 2014, 12:05:24 AM
If somebody saw a hand reach down from above with a sign saying "hey there! This is God", would that be a miracle? Or does it need to be witnessed by hundreds of people? Do you need to be able to demonstrate something for it to have happened?

Is the person that saw the giant hand from above justified in worshipping God from that point onwards based on what he saw? Or would he only be justified in doing so if hundreds of others saw what occurred?

The problem is that the religions don't make any decent sense. If God did come out of the sky like that (to me personally), I would still be shaking my head, and wondering how a being with those capabilities could have written the conflicting myths in the Bible. It's seems clear to me that God has little power to influence what is written in the Bible, or what he has written is deliberately in error. Therefore his appearance would give me no information, unless he divested an entire knowledge, as Paul claimed happened to him.


Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 15, 2014, 12:07:14 AM
So, for you, America is the world?

He said nothing about "the world" but there's evidence for that too. Yet all of this is just one big distraction that you are setting up to lead everyone away from the claims you made and have yet to backup with any sound evidence. So too, this meter you have for deciding if something is true (i.e. - how many converts a belief has) is irrational as wells (argumentum ad populum fallacy). So all you've provided thus far are unsubstantiated and irrational arguments (and each have been specifically addressed by myself and others here).

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/08/10/survey-says-atheism-is-on-the-rise-worldwide-and-in-america/ (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/08/10/survey-says-atheism-is-on-the-rise-worldwide-and-in-america/)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/08/religiosity-plummets-ireland-declines-worldwide-atheism_n_1757453.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/08/religiosity-plummets-ireland-declines-worldwide-atheism_n_1757453.html)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 15, 2014, 12:09:30 AM
Luk can not be serious. nobody is this superficial .

That's what we think every time. Get used to it.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 15, 2014, 12:17:15 AM
For me, each other religion had something that I didn't like, they restrained my freedom.

Have you in the past researched and compared various religions in order to have reached this conclusion?

Quote
I have to confess, if I heard enough testimony from any other religion than Christianity AND if this religion had more believers than Christianity, I might have had another religion.

This is a point that we atheists try so very hard to get theists to understand. The particular religion you currently subscribe to has everything to do with the environment you grew up in (family, friends, peers etc likewise belonging to said religion rather that some inherent revelation that that particular religion is the "One True Faith".


Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 15, 2014, 12:18:37 AM
I promise you. We will get there. I am not trying to change the subject. Be patient.
Tell me, about nogodsforme evidence was it enough?

You're are already trying to change the subject and avoid directly providing the demonstrable evidence of your claims by these charades you are playing.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 15, 2014, 12:22:39 AM
So, for you, America is the world?

He said nothing about "the world" but there's evidence for that too. Yet all of this is just one big distraction that you are setting up to lead everyone away from the claims you made and have yet to backup with any sound evidence. So too, this meter you have for deciding if something is true (i.e. - how many converts a belief has) is irrational as wells (argumentum ad populum fallacy). So all you've provided thus far are unsubstantiated and irrational arguments (and each have been specifically addressed by myself and others here).

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/08/10/survey-says-atheism-is-on-the-rise-worldwide-and-in-america/ (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/08/10/survey-says-atheism-is-on-the-rise-worldwide-and-in-america/)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/08/religiosity-plummets-ireland-declines-worldwide-atheism_n_1757453.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/08/religiosity-plummets-ireland-declines-worldwide-atheism_n_1757453.html)
That's only one survey. Asked only 50k people, less than 0.001% of the population. Asked only 60 coutries, leaving 70% of countries completely forgotten.
Can you give us a more reliable source? More than one would be great.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 15, 2014, 12:25:12 AM
I promise you. We will get there. I am not trying to change the subject. Be patient.
Tell me, about nogodsforme evidence was it enough?

You're are already trying to change the subject and avoid directly providing the demonstrable evidence of your claims by these charades you are playing.
You are not helping yourself. The longer you avoid my critical questions the longer you will have to wait for the answers you so badly seek.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: carstensenscott on May 15, 2014, 12:26:02 AM
So easy. Because god is fictional. Why doesn't Superman go save the Nigerian girls. ...because only humans do nasty things..and only humans can get them back.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 15, 2014, 12:30:39 AM
That's only one survey. Asked only 50k people, less than 0.001% of the population. Asked only 60 coutries, leaving 70% of countries completely forgotten.
Can you give us a more reliable source? More than one would be great.

How about you provide good evidence that the ability of a religion to spread, validates its truth.

We have ample examples of other diseases and ideas that have spread without truth being involved.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 15, 2014, 12:33:04 AM
You are not helping yourself. The longer you avoid my critical questions the longer you will have to wait for the answers you so badly seek.

Unless you get moderated, in which case your mission here has failed.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 15, 2014, 12:35:01 AM
How about you provide good evidence that the ability of a religion to spread, validates its truth.
We have ample examples of other diseases and ideas that have spread without truth being involved.
Why would I do that?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 15, 2014, 12:37:52 AM
I promise you. We will get there. I am not trying to change the subject. Be patient.
Tell me, about nogodsforme evidence was it enough?

You're are already trying to change the subject and avoid directly providing the demonstrable evidence of your claims by these charades you are playing.
You are not helping yourself. The longer you avoid my critical questions the longer you will have to wait for the answers you so badly seek.

It is you sir that is stalling the whole thing with your stonewalling. It is you that is causing the hold up. We're waiting for you to provide the demonstrable evidence and still you avoid it (so dishonestly). It speaks volumes about you and your motives.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 15, 2014, 12:44:04 AM
How about you provide good evidence that the ability of a religion to spread, validates its truth.
We have ample examples of other diseases and ideas that have spread without truth being involved.
Why would I do that?

Because you asserted that Christianity's spread equates to its validity.

Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 15, 2014, 12:46:22 AM
It is you sir that is stalling the whole thing with your stonewalling. It is you that is causing the hold up. We're waiting for you to provide the demonstrable evidence and still you avoid it (so dishonestly). It speaks volumes about you and your motives.

Did you notice a reason he brought up "luck"? Were we just defending against what we thought his next move would be? I don't know why he pushes it, when he hasn't revealed why it's even relevant.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 15, 2014, 01:03:18 AM
Luk you don't understand acceptable standards of proof, you don't  understand hypotheses based testing, you don't understand the scientific method, you don't understand basic rules of logic, you don't understand theology, and now you don't get stratified statistical sampling and error analysis.


might be easier for us if you tell us the small amount of things you do understand and we can educate you from there.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 15, 2014, 01:05:35 AM
It is you sir that is stalling the whole thing with your stonewalling. It is you that is causing the hold up. We're waiting for you to provide the demonstrable evidence and still you avoid it (so dishonestly). It speaks volumes about you and your motives.

Did you notice a reason he brought up "luck"? Were we just defending against what we thought his next move would be? I don't know why he pushes it, when he hasn't revealed why it's even relevant.

He actually hinted at it in another post. He is trying to "find out what your standards are" so that he can attack them and/or claim they are no different than his etc. Except it's not working because myself, and others, have already given clear examples of the kinds of evidence he needs to bring forward (in this particular case - b/c standards can change based upon the nature of the claim) and yet he still stonewalls (obviously b/c he doesn't have jack shit and he knows it). It's just a dishonest shell game through and through. Furthermore, it's a false analogy b/c he is making claims to the supernatural/miraculous magic. But perhaps even more importantly is that the burden of proof lies with the one who makes the positive claim - not the one who rejects such a claim as not having met it's burden of proof. He seems to have this whack notion that if someone says, "No I do not believe in luck as you have stated it" then he can say, "Ha! You need to prove that!"

Well, NOPE! That's isn't the way it works. The default position is to disbelieve extraordinary claims until sufficient evidence has been brought forth (of which he has not done with his miracle claims). And we use this tool (along with the tools of logic, reason, and evidence) in order to detect bullshit and weed out false claims by snake-oil salesman and charlatans. Somehow this is something he just cannot grasp (clearly b/c he is hypocritically giving his religion and theology a "pass" while rejecting the others who use his same reasoning to justify their beliefs in miracle claims).
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 15, 2014, 01:13:17 AM
I think he gets it but he has at least temporarily got a stage an an audience so he is going to stall as long as he can make it last. if he actually had something of worth to share he would have already done so.  this stalling game is to hold back the fact he is that shell med called him.

behind the mask is nothing except a lonely person.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 15, 2014, 01:30:23 AM
. [/i]He seems to have this whack notion that if someone says, "No I do not believe in luck as you have stated it" then he can say, "Ha! You need to prove that!"

Well, NOPE!

Thanks for clarifying. I have wondered why he doesn't answer the car crash question. Obviously because it would expose some problem.

I did some reading on the philosophy of moral luck, but my eyes glazed over a bit, and it was not related to the problem.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_luck


 
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Graybeard on May 15, 2014, 06:41:39 AM
To Lukvance and Median:

The following is a transcript of your correspondence so far. My comments as a moderator are at the end of the transcript. You both should heed them.



Lukvance

Quote from: Graybeard on May 12, 2014, 10:25:17 AM
You may have heard someone say, “I have a lucky coin.” When they say this they mean that they have an irrational belief that the coin will somehow give them “luck.”

Then in your example, we see the other meaning/use, where it is used to describe the quality of a set of circumstances, as in your example.

When we consider the nature of “Luck” it is important to realise that luck is a concept - it is a description - not a reality. Luck is a word that is used to describe a set of circumstances that turn out to be more advantageous than we imagine might have been the case when compared to another possible outcome.

However, we know there is no such thing as a “lucky coin” – how could it work? It would have to change all the laws of the universe to our benefit.

We know that in your example, the circumstances were simply that you heard something, reacted, and were not hit.

We do not say, "Luckily 2+2=4, otherwise my calculation would not have worked."

Christians often do not think critically about what they say, and they imagine that abstract ideas have a real existence. Atheists use expressions like “I was lucky” but they understand that this is simply an idiom, and that “luck” does not really exist.

Your question should be, “Do you understand the concept of “luck”?” and the answer will be “Yes”, I understand it in the same way that I understand the concept of a deity, a unicorn or a dragon.

You will have heard that famous quote by the golfer Gary Player: “The harder I practice, the luckier I get.”

I think that this explains well the concept of luck and gives us a definition upon both you and we can agree.


Lukvance: Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is Yes people can get lucky) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?

Median:
I know what you are trying to do with GB, and it's not going to work with me because you are making claims to the supernatural and miraculous (basically "magic" did it). And that is not an answer at all, and does not explain anything. It is a placeholder for your ignorance. On the other hand, we do in fact have lots of sound evidence of the laws of the universe (the laws of physics) operating as we would expect them to, and we can make (and have made) reliable predictions based upon those laws. This is fundamentally opposed to your attempts at answering mysteries with even bigger mysteries because such attempts are useless for separating fact from fiction.

Please stop dodging and actually provide the evidence for your claims that you made earlier (which I quoted), or admit that you cannot and retract your statements.

EDIT: Btw, there is no such "thing" as luck. As others have noted, "luck" is merely a word which is used by humans to describe "that which happens" (generally). Again, if you are going to argue that your God allegedly "makes everything happen" then the burden of proof is upon you. 1) Define this term "God" with a coherent definition that actually refers to some-thing and 2) demonstrate the assertion that it does anything. Thus far, you haven't done anything to differentiate between your claims of miracles and those of superstitions throughout history in nearly ever culture (not to mention Santa Claus and Pegasus). Furthermore, if you make the claim that God controls everything, or makes everything happen, then you are actually violating Occam's Razor because we do not need that assumption in order to adequately explain events.

Lukvance: Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is NO, people cannot get lucky) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?

Median: Evidence of what? You are still stonewalling and refusing to meet the challenge that has been set before you. That is fucking epic dishonesty and I will take it as your admission of defeat. You've been asked to meet a pretty simple task - to demonstrate these extraordinary claims about "the supernatural" and "God" (whatever that means), and yet at every-single-turn instead of actually meeting the challenge (like any sane person) you obfuscate, dance around the issue, try to change the subject, or try to shift the burden of proof. These tactics of yours aren't helping you get one tiny iota closer to showing that the deity "Yahweh" you believe in is anything other than fiction - and it shows. What your actions demonstrate to me is that you-do-not-care whether or not your beliefs are true. You just want to believe, what you want to believe, because you want to believe.

If you disagree, then stop obfuscating and actually provide the demonstrable extraordinary evidence required to justify your extraordinary claims - or...admit you cannot. Simply attempting to compare something like the linguistic concept of "luck" is just another one of your false analogies. References to human conventions and linguistic tools such as "luck" or "love" have no bearing on this discussion - and are really just an attempt to change the subject. You have claimed that "Yahweh" exists, actually manifests in the world, and does "miracles". And yet for some odd reason you think it's all-good if you just shift the burden of proof instead of actually providing the evidence. Do you see how dishonest this is? With your actions here you are basically showing that you can't meet the challenge and that you do-not-care to. Why should we even waste or time with someone like you? Are you even open to the possibility that your beliefs are in error? If so, then stop dodging.

Lukvance: Evidence supporting the fact that people cannot get lucky. (since you claimed that there is no such thing as luck)

Median: This is another one of your equivocation fallacies. I reject your meaning and use of that term, as do I reject the assertion that there is some "thing" out there called "luck". If you think there is such a thing then the burden is on you (and again, your irrational attempt to shift the burden of proof only shows your intense dishonesty throughout nearly the entirety of this discussion). Furthermore, I could be agnostic about the whole thing and still the burden of proof lies with you, regarding the claims you have made - and yet continue to dodge.

Lukvance: Well too bad. You cannot reject something that you already used as an argument. YOU stated (not ME) that there was no such thing as luck. The burden of proof lies with YOU. I intentionally did not state anything about luck.

Median: And in doing so, you dishonestly attempted to both change the subject and shift the fucking burden of proof - a**hole. Way to be Christlike there! When a challenge is put before you, you just cut, run, and change the subject. Real slick!

I stated that "luck" is just a term and I rejected your use of it. I also reject your bullshit attempt at some kind of dishonest "Gotcha" nonsense. That was the context by which I was using the term you used (which was irrational once again since that isn't the subject Mr. red herring). I know you don't like having the burden of proof (clearly you don't because of how desperate you are in avoiding providing the extraordinary evidence for these supernatural claims you keep making) but the burden is still yours regardless. If you have actually reliable, independently verifiable evidence then present it or just be honest and admit you can't. Is it really that hard?

Lukvance: Haha. You are so cornered and angry that you don't even know what you are talking about. Take a deep breath. Re read the exchange we have between each other and tell me where didn't I prove what I stated before? And where do you get angry and insult me when the burden of proof is on you since the beginning.

Median: Do you not see how unbelievably hypocritical this is?? I asked you to backup your claims to the supernatural and you dodged them (by trying to change the subject). Then, you in your desperation veer off into trying to go on the offense demanding that others answer your red herring question. WOW. That level of dissonance and arrogance is astounding.

Median: You made claims to the supernatural and "God", in post #27 specifically, (trying to justify such beliefs by use of hear-say and anecdote) and somehow the burden is on me? No. You sir, need to re-read the exchange because it is you who said "I'm having trouble proving this..." and then proceeded to attempt to change the subject.
Quote from: Lukvance on May 11, 2014, 12:54:55 AM
Miracles happen, even today.
Quote from: Lukvance on May 11, 2014, 12:54:55 AM
He does manifest in the physical world.\

Lukvance:I remember answering those with examples where the word "miracle" was used. If you don't like the word they use, go argue with them. I proved that there are things called miracle that happens even today. No more burden of proof there anymore.
As for God's manifestation in the word...well you already have my testimony about how He manifested himself in my life. No more burden of proof there anymore neither.

Now, let me ask you again the same questions that was ask the same night these 2 assertions of mine where made.
Quote from: Lukvance on May 11, 2014, 04:49:45 AM
Median do you believe people when they tell you they were lucky? Do you believe in luck?

Median: This is just another one of your irrational attempts at argumentation (this time the equivocation fallacy). I didn't ask you if there were things that people "call" miracles. I asked you to demonstrate your claim that "miracles occur". We're talking about actually demonstrating that a violation of the laws of known physics actually took place not what people can just CLAIM! Are you even capable of understanding the difference or are you really just that gullible to take someone else' word for it when claims to the supernatural or miraculous are made? "Well, they claimed it was a miracle" is not a demonstration that a miracle actually occurred. I'm sorry that your brain missed it but it's not surprising why.

Median: Again, you need more than just hear-say (which is all you just provided here). The burden is still yours.

Median: Your "testimony" is not sufficient (just as a Muslim "testimony" or Mormon "testimony" would not be sufficient for you). You need actual demonstrable evidence (not "because I said so" - which is all you just gave here). Again, you are practicing hypocrisy and a double standard because you wouldn't accept these claims from religions that you think are false - all the while you are desperately trying to obfuscate and shift away the burden of proof. It's not working.

The burden still lies upon you to actually demonstrate your claims (not just make more claims, make hear-say, or give anecdote). For the 100th time, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. As it stands right now, it seems you don't even have ordinary evidence - let alone the mountains of it you would need for it to be overwhelming.

Lukvance:Yes I know you don't approve of my evidence. I am looking for the kind of evidence that you would approve of.

Median: This completely misses the point. You haven't provided any actual evidence.

-"Because they said it was a miracle" is not evidence. It is hear-say.
-"Because something strange happened and I can't explain it. So it's a miracle" is not evidence. It is an argument from ignorance fallacy.
-"Because I had an experience and I say it was a miracle" is not evidence. It is unreliable anecdote.

Lukvance: I know that these evidence don't look like evidence to you. You made that pretty clear already. Please be patient. I am looking for evidence that will pleases you.
What do you think of the evidences that nogodsforme presented to support her claim (about luck)? Are they sufficient?

Median: It is completely and wholly irrelevant as to whether or not I accept someone's definition of "luck". For one, because merely providing a definition for something (like one could for Santa Claus) does not in any way, shape, or form make said thing actual or real. And second, what most people refer to as luck (i.e. - "that which happens") is not a supernatural claim!!

Must we repeat ourselves a million times? You are making extraordinary claims and as such your extraordinary claims require far more evidence than hear-say, anecdote, or arguments from ignorance or incredulity. Is this really that difficult for you to grasp? Again, if a Muslim or Mormon started giving you the kinds of replies you keep attempting here you would likely reject such assertions (rightly), and that is exactly what you are (and will continue) to experience here.

No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish.
David Hume

Lukvance: I am talking about the evidence that she brought. Where they enough? or do you feel that they are not evidence and that she should bring more to prove her claim?

Be patient, we are almost there.

Median: No, we are not "almost there". You are off in goo-goo land rabbit trails while we are trying to get you to come back to the subject at hand and actually meet the challenge before you (which obviously you cannot and have no interest in doing). I know this BS trap you are trying to set and I'm not buying it, sorry.

Stop trying to change the subject and provide the demonstrable evidence for your claims to the supernatural.

Lukvance: I promise you. We will get there. I am not trying to change the subject. Be patient.
Tell me, about nogodsforme evidence was it enough?

Median: You're are already trying to change the subject and avoid directly providing the demonstrable evidence of your claims by these charades you are playing.

Lukvance: You are not helping yourself. The longer you avoid my critical questions the longer you will have to wait for the answers you so badly seek.

Median: It is you sir that is stalling the whole thing with your stonewalling. It is you that is causing the hold up. We're waiting for you to provide the demonstrable evidence and still you avoid it (so dishonestly). It speaks volumes about you and your motives.[/i][/i]

Lukvance: If you have read through the above, you will see that
(i)   you have been stubborn and unyielding.
(ii)   You have diverted the post with unreasonable demands by asking Median to define his terms, when you will not define yours
(iii)   You have ignored posts that dismiss your idea of “luck” existing
(iv)   You have not explained what your concept of “luck” is
(v)   the evidence you have given for the existence of “luck” shows a misunderstanding of the nature of luck.
(vi)   You have also simply refused to accept that “luck” does not exist as such, whereas “luck” has been shown to be no more than a description of a set of events.

Median has already given his definition of “luck” and he gave it very early on:
“It [luck] is a placeholder for your ignorance.”

The fact that “I was lucky[1].” exists in many languages should not be taken as proof that “luck” exists.

Unless you can show that “Luck” does exist independently, then you should concede that “Luck” is an abstract concept and the debate can go on.

Median,
All you need have stated was: “You need actual demonstrable evidence (not "because I said so" - which is all you just gave here).”

Lukvance’s powers of rhetoric are excellent and you should be as unyielding as he is, even though this may stop the thread.


GB
Mod
[/color]
 1. or a similar sentence.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: voodoo child on May 15, 2014, 06:50:20 AM
In my experience there is no such thing as luck.

You would not describe it as lucky if you were driving down the road and a 100 year oak tree fell where your car had been 1 second before? 

No amount of preparation helped you avoid the impact, no skill, you just were not hit because you were one second ahead of schedule.

I would say that was luck, just dumb luck.




Id call it timing and erosion possibly carpenter ants with a sense of humour.   I would not have noticed if the tree fell, it was behind me. 
However, If I had left for work a little later…       luck is a word used by lotto winners.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Anfauglir on May 15, 2014, 07:14:31 AM
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish.
David Hume

What does he mean by 'establish' a miracle? Does he mean 'convince somebody to believe the miracle occurred'? If so, fair enough. Otherwise it becomes a tree falling in the forest with no one to hear it sort of thing, surely.

I believe what Hume means there is indeed "convince someone else" - in exactly the same way he would use it in considering whether someone once slept with Cameron Diaz, or won (then lost) a million in Vegas, or met the High Poobah of Rigel IV aboard his spaceship.  That there are some things that we would believe without much thought ("I watched TV last night!"), and other things that we need a little more ("I watched TV with David Hasslehof and Cheryl Cole last night!").

It has nothing to do with whether the event actually took place or not - many many things are possible.  And indeed, it is generally reasonable to believe things if they happen to you (though I would argue that when an extra-normal thing appears to happen, it would make sense to analyse it more than normal, and consider carefully alternate explanations).

As a reason for personal belief, personal experience and miracles are fine, in my opinion.  But that's as far as it goes.  They mean nothing when it comes to changing MY beliefs about the alleged object of the tale, without corroborating evidence.

As has been pointed out, Christians say this, Muslims say that, Hindus say the other.  Without corroborating evidence, and without any preference towards any one, which tale (if any) should I accept? 

Or should I, in fact, do exactly what each person currently within those faiths does when they hear the tale of another?  Which is, essentially, to say "interesting story - I think you entirely misunderstood what really happened to you.  And - by the way - don't you even THINK about trying to change the law, or the choices available to me, based on your unsubstantiated and probably mistaken say-so?"

Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: epidemic on May 15, 2014, 07:44:37 AM
Lukvance,

you say Catholosism gives you the most freedom.  Can you expand on that over other christian faiths.

Catholocism seems among the more inflexible christian faiths to follow.  You must go to confession, You all must stand and sit and murmer in unison.  You must baptize your children in extreme ritual on a schedule, Last rights must be performed.  Lent is adhered to much more than in the offshoots I have seen.  You can not be divorced, have abortion, wear a condom...  I am not sure by what measure you have more freedom?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 15, 2014, 09:36:06 AM
^^I am also curious to hear your answer, Luk.

Most theists who are indoctrinated in to a particular belief system at an early age I would think would have little if no impetus to study other religions in any great detail (say, out of concern of having their deeply held beliefs potentially challenged.

Is the religion you adhere to now the same as when you were a child, and if not, then what were the circumstances surrounding your converting to the religion you adhere to today?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 15, 2014, 10:54:11 AM
I promise you. We will get there. I am not trying to change the subject. Be patient.
Tell me, about nogodsforme evidence was it enough?

While I completely reject your assertion that you are not trying to change the subject (because you already have been, and are), you need to realize that nogodsforme did not claim to believe in "luck". Did you get that? That's right. She did not claim that. In fact, she just emailed me about it. So, you sir are (once again) going off onto tangents and rabbit trails trying to divert the attention away from yourself and the fact that you have ZERO demonstrable evidence for "miracles" or an alleged "God" manifesting in the world. I think many of us are waiting for you to actually act "like Christ" and come clean about it.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 15, 2014, 11:44:13 AM
To Lukvance and Median:

The following is a transcript of your correspondence so far. My comments as a moderator are at the end of the transcript. You both should heed them.



Lukvance

Quote from: Graybeard on May 12, 2014, 10:25:17 AM
You may have heard someone say, “I have a lucky coin.” When they say this they mean that they have an irrational belief that the coin will somehow give them “luck.”

Then in your example, we see the other meaning/use, where it is used to describe the quality of a set of circumstances, as in your example.

When we consider the nature of “Luck” it is important to realise that luck is a concept - it is a description - not a reality. Luck is a word that is used to describe a set of circumstances that turn out to be more advantageous than we imagine might have been the case when compared to another possible outcome.

However, we know there is no such thing as a “lucky coin” – how could it work? It would have to change all the laws of the universe to our benefit.

We know that in your example, the circumstances were simply that you heard something, reacted, and were not hit.

We do not say, "Luckily 2+2=4, otherwise my calculation would not have worked."

Christians often do not think critically about what they say, and they imagine that abstract ideas have a real existence. Atheists use expressions like “I was lucky” but they understand that this is simply an idiom, and that “luck” does not really exist.

Your question should be, “Do you understand the concept of “luck”?” and the answer will be “Yes”, I understand it in the same way that I understand the concept of a deity, a unicorn or a dragon.

You will have heard that famous quote by the golfer Gary Player: “The harder I practice, the luckier I get.”

I think that this explains well the concept of luck and gives us a definition upon both you and we can agree.


Lukvance: Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is Yes people can get lucky) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?

Median:
I know what you are trying to do with GB, and it's not going to work with me because you are making claims to the supernatural and miraculous (basically "magic" did it). And that is not an answer at all, and does not explain anything. It is a placeholder for your ignorance. On the other hand, we do in fact have lots of sound evidence of the laws of the universe (the laws of physics) operating as we would expect them to, and we can make (and have made) reliable predictions based upon those laws. This is fundamentally opposed to your attempts at answering mysteries with even bigger mysteries because such attempts are useless for separating fact from fiction.

Please stop dodging and actually provide the evidence for your claims that you made earlier (which I quoted), or admit that you cannot and retract your statements.

EDIT: Btw, there is no such "thing" as luck. As others have noted, "luck" is merely a word which is used by humans to describe "that which happens" (generally). Again, if you are going to argue that your God allegedly "makes everything happen" then the burden of proof is upon you. 1) Define this term "God" with a coherent definition that actually refers to some-thing and 2) demonstrate the assertion that it does anything. Thus far, you haven't done anything to differentiate between your claims of miracles and those of superstitions throughout history in nearly ever culture (not to mention Santa Claus and Pegasus). Furthermore, if you make the claim that God controls everything, or makes everything happen, then you are actually violating Occam's Razor because we do not need that assumption in order to adequately explain events.

Lukvance: Do you feel that you gave enough information to backup your answer? (as i understand, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, your answer is NO, people cannot get lucky) That your answer is not based on hearsay or anecdotes. That you gave us enough evidence?

Median: Evidence of what? You are still stonewalling and refusing to meet the challenge that has been set before you. That is fucking epic dishonesty and I will take it as your admission of defeat. You've been asked to meet a pretty simple task - to demonstrate these extraordinary claims about "the supernatural" and "God" (whatever that means), and yet at every-single-turn instead of actually meeting the challenge (like any sane person) you obfuscate, dance around the issue, try to change the subject, or try to shift the burden of proof. These tactics of yours aren't helping you get one tiny iota closer to showing that the deity "Yahweh" you believe in is anything other than fiction - and it shows. What your actions demonstrate to me is that you-do-not-care whether or not your beliefs are true. You just want to believe, what you want to believe, because you want to believe.

If you disagree, then stop obfuscating and actually provide the demonstrable extraordinary evidence required to justify your extraordinary claims - or...admit you cannot. Simply attempting to compare something like the linguistic concept of "luck" is just another one of your false analogies. References to human conventions and linguistic tools such as "luck" or "love" have no bearing on this discussion - and are really just an attempt to change the subject. You have claimed that "Yahweh" exists, actually manifests in the world, and does "miracles". And yet for some odd reason you think it's all-good if you just shift the burden of proof instead of actually providing the evidence. Do you see how dishonest this is? With your actions here you are basically showing that you can't meet the challenge and that you do-not-care to. Why should we even waste or time with someone like you? Are you even open to the possibility that your beliefs are in error? If so, then stop dodging.

Lukvance: Evidence supporting the fact that people cannot get lucky. (since you claimed that there is no such thing as luck)

Median: This is another one of your equivocation fallacies. I reject your meaning and use of that term, as do I reject the assertion that there is some "thing" out there called "luck". If you think there is such a thing then the burden is on you (and again, your irrational attempt to shift the burden of proof only shows your intense dishonesty throughout nearly the entirety of this discussion). Furthermore, I could be agnostic about the whole thing and still the burden of proof lies with you, regarding the claims you have made - and yet continue to dodge.

Lukvance: Well too bad. You cannot reject something that you already used as an argument. YOU stated (not ME) that there was no such thing as luck. The burden of proof lies with YOU. I intentionally did not state anything about luck.

Median: And in doing so, you dishonestly attempted to both change the subject and shift the fucking burden of proof - a**hole. Way to be Christlike there! When a challenge is put before you, you just cut, run, and change the subject. Real slick!

I stated that "luck" is just a term and I rejected your use of it. I also reject your bullshit attempt at some kind of dishonest "Gotcha" nonsense. That was the context by which I was using the term you used (which was irrational once again since that isn't the subject Mr. red herring). I know you don't like having the burden of proof (clearly you don't because of how desperate you are in avoiding providing the extraordinary evidence for these supernatural claims you keep making) but the burden is still yours regardless. If you have actually reliable, independently verifiable evidence then present it or just be honest and admit you can't. Is it really that hard?

Lukvance: Haha. You are so cornered and angry that you don't even know what you are talking about. Take a deep breath. Re read the exchange we have between each other and tell me where didn't I prove what I stated before? And where do you get angry and insult me when the burden of proof is on you since the beginning.

Median: Do you not see how unbelievably hypocritical this is?? I asked you to backup your claims to the supernatural and you dodged them (by trying to change the subject). Then, you in your desperation veer off into trying to go on the offense demanding that others answer your red herring question. WOW. That level of dissonance and arrogance is astounding.

Median: You made claims to the supernatural and "God", in post #27 specifically, (trying to justify such beliefs by use of hear-say and anecdote) and somehow the burden is on me? No. You sir, need to re-read the exchange because it is you who said "I'm having trouble proving this..." and then proceeded to attempt to change the subject.
Quote from: Lukvance on May 11, 2014, 12:54:55 AM
Miracles happen, even today.
Quote from: Lukvance on May 11, 2014, 12:54:55 AM
He does manifest in the physical world.\

Lukvance:I remember answering those with examples where the word "miracle" was used. If you don't like the word they use, go argue with them. I proved that there are things called miracle that happens even today. No more burden of proof there anymore.
As for God's manifestation in the word...well you already have my testimony about how He manifested himself in my life. No more burden of proof there anymore neither.

Now, let me ask you again the same questions that was ask the same night these 2 assertions of mine where made.
Quote from: Lukvance on May 11, 2014, 04:49:45 AM
Median do you believe people when they tell you they were lucky? Do you believe in luck?

Median: This is just another one of your irrational attempts at argumentation (this time the equivocation fallacy). I didn't ask you if there were things that people "call" miracles. I asked you to demonstrate your claim that "miracles occur". We're talking about actually demonstrating that a violation of the laws of known physics actually took place not what people can just CLAIM! Are you even capable of understanding the difference or are you really just that gullible to take someone else' word for it when claims to the supernatural or miraculous are made? "Well, they claimed it was a miracle" is not a demonstration that a miracle actually occurred. I'm sorry that your brain missed it but it's not surprising why.

Median: Again, you need more than just hear-say (which is all you just provided here). The burden is still yours.

Median: Your "testimony" is not sufficient (just as a Muslim "testimony" or Mormon "testimony" would not be sufficient for you). You need actual demonstrable evidence (not "because I said so" - which is all you just gave here). Again, you are practicing hypocrisy and a double standard because you wouldn't accept these claims from religions that you think are false - all the while you are desperately trying to obfuscate and shift away the burden of proof. It's not working.

The burden still lies upon you to actually demonstrate your claims (not just make more claims, make hear-say, or give anecdote). For the 100th time, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. As it stands right now, it seems you don't even have ordinary evidence - let alone the mountains of it you would need for it to be overwhelming.

Lukvance:Yes I know you don't approve of my evidence. I am looking for the kind of evidence that you would approve of.

Median: This completely misses the point. You haven't provided any actual evidence.

-"Because they said it was a miracle" is not evidence. It is hear-say.
-"Because something strange happened and I can't explain it. So it's a miracle" is not evidence. It is an argument from ignorance fallacy.
-"Because I had an experience and I say it was a miracle" is not evidence. It is unreliable anecdote.

Lukvance: I know that these evidence don't look like evidence to you. You made that pretty clear already. Please be patient. I am looking for evidence that will pleases you.
What do you think of the evidences that nogodsforme presented to support her claim (about luck)? Are they sufficient?

Median: It is completely and wholly irrelevant as to whether or not I accept someone's definition of "luck". For one, because merely providing a definition for something (like one could for Santa Claus) does not in any way, shape, or form make said thing actual or real. And second, what most people refer to as luck (i.e. - "that which happens") is not a supernatural claim!!

Must we repeat ourselves a million times? You are making extraordinary claims and as such your extraordinary claims require far more evidence than hear-say, anecdote, or arguments from ignorance or incredulity. Is this really that difficult for you to grasp? Again, if a Muslim or Mormon started giving you the kinds of replies you keep attempting here you would likely reject such assertions (rightly), and that is exactly what you are (and will continue) to experience here.

No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish.
David Hume

Lukvance: I am talking about the evidence that she brought. Where they enough? or do you feel that they are not evidence and that she should bring more to prove her claim?

Be patient, we are almost there.

Median: No, we are not "almost there". You are off in goo-goo land rabbit trails while we are trying to get you to come back to the subject at hand and actually meet the challenge before you (which obviously you cannot and have no interest in doing). I know this BS trap you are trying to set and I'm not buying it, sorry.

Stop trying to change the subject and provide the demonstrable evidence for your claims to the supernatural.

Lukvance: I promise you. We will get there. I am not trying to change the subject. Be patient.
Tell me, about nogodsforme evidence was it enough?

Median: You're are already trying to change the subject and avoid directly providing the demonstrable evidence of your claims by these charades you are playing.

Lukvance: You are not helping yourself. The longer you avoid my critical questions the longer you will have to wait for the answers you so badly seek.

Median: It is you sir that is stalling the whole thing with your stonewalling. It is you that is causing the hold up. We're waiting for you to provide the demonstrable evidence and still you avoid it (so dishonestly). It speaks volumes about you and your motives.[/i][/i]

Lukvance: If you have read through the above, you will see that
(i)   you have been stubborn and unyielding.
(ii)   You have diverted the post with unreasonable demands by asking Median to define his terms, when you will not define yours
(iii)   You have ignored posts that dismiss your idea of “luck” existing
(iv)   You have not explained what your concept of “luck” is
(v)   the evidence you have given for the existence of “luck” shows a misunderstanding of the nature of luck.
(vi)   You have also simply refused to accept that “luck” does not exist as such, whereas “luck” has been shown to be no more than a description of a set of events.

Median has already given his definition of “luck” and he gave it very early on:
“It [luck] is a placeholder for your ignorance.”

The fact that “I was lucky[1].” exists in many languages should not be taken as proof that “luck” exists.

Unless you can show that “Luck” does exist independently, then you should concede that “Luck” is an abstract concept and the debate can go on.

Median,
All you need have stated was: “You need actual demonstrable evidence (not "because I said so" - which is all you just gave here).”

Lukvance’s powers of rhetoric are excellent and you should be as unyielding as he is, even though this may stop the thread.
GB
Mod
[/color]
 1. or a similar sentence.
i) I'm sorry I asked him to humor me when he did not reply to my questions. I am missing some information to be able to answer him correctly.
ii) I'm sorry. I never asked someone to define his terms. Maybe the type of phrase I used make it look like I asked to define "luck" but that was not on purpose. I don't want the definition of the word luck. I want the proof that it exist (or not) with evidence to support the claim that it exist (or not)
iii) I never did such a thing.
iv) Oh yes I explained it since the first time the question was asked :
Luck : "events that influence one's life and are seemingly beyond one's control" or "a purposeless, unpredictable and uncontrollable force that shapes events favorably or unfavorably for an individual, group or cause"
For example : I was walking down the street and a car was coming at me Luckily someone was there to warn me and I could duck the car. I was lucky that this person was there. I was lucky to have heard her. I am lucky to be alive today.
The same day I asked :
Median do you believe people when they tell you they were lucky? Do you believe in luck?

v) I was really careful to not make any assumption about the existence or non existence of luck. What evidence are you talking about?
vi) I really don't care if luck exist or not. What is important to me is the evidence to support the claim that is exist or not so I can use the same type of evidence to support my claims.
As you can read here :
Ok. Miracles are the manifestation of God power in the physical word. So what you want for me is backing up my answer "Miracles happen, even today.
The links and the personal testimony I gave you are not enough to back my claim?
If so :
Do you think that people can get lucky? even today?
If possible could you back up your answer?
I am fishing for acceptable evidence about luck that I could later apply to Miracles.
A few post later I explain it :
I need you guys to answer these two questions. I am having trouble finding sources that you will accept to prove that "Miracles happen, even today". If you give me source that prove that "Luck happen, even today" or that "Luck doesn't happen" or that "luck never happen" I will then have an Idea on what kind of source are needed to prove my point.

Do you think that people can get lucky? even today? (yes or no will suffice)
If possible could you back up your answer? (if can't back up your yes or no that's ok too)

By luck I mean for example : I was walking down the street and a car was coming at me Luckily someone was there to warn me and I could duck the car. I was lucky that this person was there. I was lucky to have heard her. I am lucky to be alive today.
That kind of luck. Does it help?

When you read the whole passage :
I know what you are trying to do with GB, and it's not going to work with me because you are making claims to the supernatural and miraculous (basically "magic" did it). And that is not an answer at all, and does not explain anything. It is a placeholder for your ignorance.
You understand as one might that the "IT" he is using here is about my claims and not about luck.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 15, 2014, 11:58:44 AM
Luk, during the entire time you have been on this tirade about "luck" you have completely missed the point that many here have been giving you. Please pay attention.

We reject the assertion that there is a "luck" just like we reject the assertion that there is a "God". We have neither made a positive or negative claim about either. Theism and "luckism" are a belief in those things and we lack that belief (i.e. - it's called A-theism). So the burden of proof is not on us. It is on you. If you also believe that there is a "thing" called "luck" then the burden is also on you to demonstrate it. If, on the other hand, you are attempting to compare a mere linguistic tool like "luck" with your conception of "God" - that is to say, if you think God only exists linguistically or is imaginary - then say so. Otherwise, you have a false analogy.

Furthermore, and as I stated MANY TIMES already, myself and others here have already provided you the kinds of evidence that are necessary to demonstrate your claims. Yet still, in the very face of this information, you decided to ignore what we gave you and focus on "luck" - as if to pretend that "luck" is in any way equivalent to your "God" who allegedly manifests in the world (demonstrably) and actually violates the laws of known physics by use of magic.

So again, you are arguing irrationally all the way down-the-line and refusing to own to up to it and/or correct it.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Astreja on May 15, 2014, 12:08:43 PM
Yet still, in the very face of this information, you decided to ignore what we gave you and focus on "luck" - as if to pretend that "luck" is in any way equivalent to your "God" who allegedly manifests in the world (demonstrably) and actually violates the laws of known physics by use of magic.

IMO, trying to equate "luck" and "miracles" would be more appropriate if one were trying to prove the existence of the goddess Fortuna.[1]
 1. Should we then change the site name to "Why won't Fortuna prevent amputees from losing body parts"?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 15, 2014, 01:49:42 PM
Is the religion you adhere to now the same as when you were a child, and if not, then what were the circumstances surrounding your converting to the religion you adhere to today?
I am born in a Christian family. At the beginning we were not "good Christians".  When I grew up I distanced myself from Christianity (church bored me and I was my own God) Then, one day I tried to look to Religion in general. I understood the power laying behind having faith in something, so I looked at what I could have faith in. That's how I became christian (then catholic) by choice. Afterwards, I met God and my life was never the same.
You must go to confession, You all must stand and sit and murmer in unison.  You must baptize your children in extreme ritual on a schedule, Last rights must be performed.  Lent is adhered to much more than in the offshoots I have seen.  You can not be divorced, have abortion, wear a condom...  I am not sure by what measure you have more freedom?
You don't have to go to confession if you don't do any mortal sins. You don't have to murmer in unison, you can shout if you want or not say anything, no one will held you accountable for that. You certainly don't have to baptize your children if you don't feel the need to, you will still be considered catholic and so will your child (if he and his parents wish to). You certainly don't have to be performed last rights on when you die (is it what last rights are? I'm not sure what you meant by last rights must be performed). Lent is even not about food anymore. "You can not be divorced, have abortion, wear a condom..." Is that such a bad thing? Isn't that what you would do anyway?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: epidemic on May 15, 2014, 01:54:05 PM
depending on the sect you do not have to do any of those restrictions or expectations.  As such you can get divorced from that money grubbing bitch who has been sleeping around behind your back and got pregnant with some other guys seed.  Or if you want you can stay married and your wife can avoid catching the clap with a condom.  Or you can have an abortion so you don't have to raise the little bastard. 

Freedom is way higher and they pray to the same magic guy in the sky. 
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 15, 2014, 02:13:25 PM
I am born in a Christian family. At the beginning we were not "good Christians".  When I grew up I distanced myself from Christianity (church bored me and I was my own God) Then, one day I tried to look to Religion in general. I understood the power laying behind having faith in something, so I looked at what I could have faith in. That's how I became christian (then catholic) by choice. Afterwards, I met God and my life was never the same.

When you say you looked to "religion in general", do you remember what it was you were looking for that would ultimately guide you towards Catholicism? For instance, knowing that you are a believer in Jesus, why Catholicism rather than, say, Southern Baptist or Methodist or any other denomination of Christianity?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 15, 2014, 02:20:22 PM
You certainly don't have to be performed last rights on when you die (is it what last rights are? I'm not sure what you meant by last rights must be performed).
She's referring to the seventh sacrament.  You know it these days as 'Anointing of the Sick'.

That is one of the more...squishy...of the sacraments.  As far as I remember, it was never really pushed as an important sacrament.  Well, it was pushed as important, but treated in the same way as baptism.  It's super-duper important, but if it can't happen for legitimate reasons, then it's not actually important.

But I was never taught that anointing of the sick was an important sacrament to receive.  It was simply available.

Edit: pronoun gender fixy
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 15, 2014, 02:23:28 PM
(church bored me and I was my own God)
(Bold mine)

This always sorta bugs me.  What do you mean by 'being your own god'?

It's weird terminology.  I've just never really understood it.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 15, 2014, 02:28:21 PM
When you say you looked to "religion in general", do you remember what it was you were looking for that would ultimately guide you towards Catholicism? For instance, knowing that you are a believer in Jesus, why Catholicism rather than, say, Southern Baptist or Methodist or any other denomination of Christianity?
I was looking for a God that will respect my freedom (I was 18 and did not want anyone telling me what I have to do or not do). I then looked at the logic behind each religion I was presented with. As you said most religion under the christian banner look alike, so why Catholicism more than another one? Because of the possibility to have all my sins redeemed (without having to tell them to the world) plus the possibility to "touch" God (Eucharist) and the comfort of being united (under the pope).
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 15, 2014, 02:32:14 PM
This always sorta bugs me.  What do you mean by 'being your own god'?
It's weird terminology.  I've just never really understood it.

It means that no one was stronger than me. That I was invincible. That all I did was the good thing to do because I was the one doing it, if someone else did it I could judge him and order him to stop because it is bad. Being my own god meant that I couldn't sin and I could judge others.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: epidemic on May 15, 2014, 02:41:15 PM
When you say you looked to "religion in general", do you remember what it was you were looking for that would ultimately guide you towards Catholicism? For instance, knowing that you are a believer in Jesus, why Catholicism rather than, say, Southern Baptist or Methodist or any other denomination of Christianity?
I was looking for a God that will respect my freedom (I was 18 and did not want anyone telling me what I have to do or not do). I then looked at the logic behind each religion I was presented with. As you said most religion under the christian banner look alike, so why Catholicism more than another one? Because of the possibility to have all my sins redeemed (without having to tell them to the world) plus the possibility to "touch" God (Eucharist) and the comfort of being united (under the pope).

I don't know of any of the protestant faiths that require you to tell the world your sins to be redeemed.   As far as I understand it you merely pray or think to god and you are redeemed.  baptists faiths barely have a priest in between you and god.  Priest is just a facilitator.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 15, 2014, 02:43:23 PM
This always sorta bugs me.  What do you mean by 'being your own god'?
It's weird terminology.  I've just never really understood it.

It means that no one was stronger than me. That I was invincible. That all I did was the good thing to do because I was the one doing it, if someone else did it I could judge him and order him to stop because it is bad. Being my own god meant that I couldn't sin and I could judge others.

I'm gonna be honest with you Lukvance - that sounds like a fundamentalist's caricature of an atheist.  I'm not saying that what you're saying isn't true or who you were back then...I'm just making an observation.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: epidemic on May 15, 2014, 02:47:34 PM
Luk,

Change sin to cause harm to others and I would say I have never thought it was ok to harm others.  I am always empathetic to the plight of others.  My goal in life is to make no ones life worse and other peoples lives I will leave the same or improve.  I have never considered myself godlike. I believe we are the smartest creatures found to date as a species but I accept that there may be others superior to me.  I am pretty average over all.

Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: nogodsforme on May 15, 2014, 04:05:52 PM
I have done a lot of good things in my working life, by any person's or any religion's measure. I spent years as an inner city social worker in the 80's, and did development work in poor countries in the 90's.  I now teach at a public college that serves mainly working class students. I have purposely chosen a career where I could help people directly, even though I have made far less money than my equally educated peers who went to work for corporations. And I have been an atheist all of that time.

Most of the good things I have done involved helping people who were themselves highly religious, and who considered atheists (like me) to be horrible, evil devil worshippers who have no morals and just love sinning. After a bit of negative experience, I stopped trying to explain my lack of religion to folks like this, esp. in third world countries. It just confused them as they tried to make sense of someone so generous, nice and caring being evil and bound for hell.  People would have either shunned me, persecuted me or wasted their time (and mine) trying to convert me if they had known I was an unbeliever. For example, in Latin America when I worked at an orphanage run by Mother Teresa's nuns, I just went along to mass and pretended to be Catholic.[1]

Isn't it ironic that I, the godless, would never shun anyone who was religious or try to convince any of those people to become atheists. I would never put them down for their beliefs. I was even willing to hide my own lack of religion in order to help them. The other irony is that nobody suspected that I was not really a believer. Many atheists are better at faking religion than religious people are at faking unbelief! It's a survival skill in lots of families and communities where religion is just the default setting.

The major downside is that when we atheists hide our POV to placate religious people, they get to hold onto their negative stereotypes of atheists as arrogant, evil people who just want a license to sin! That nice lady who paid for the orphanage roof repair out of her own money, who sat for hours with the mother of the dying baby, and who took the child with burn scars to the capital city for plastic surgery has to be a good Catholic......not. &)
 1.  Everyone referred to me as "Sister Nogodsforme". ;D
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 15, 2014, 05:38:05 PM
Luk,

Change sin to cause harm to others and I would say I have never thought it was ok to harm others.  I am always empathetic to the plight of others.  My goal in life is to make no ones life worse and other peoples lives I will leave the same or improve.  I have never considered myself godlike. I believe we are the smartest creatures found to date as a species but I accept that there may be others superior to me.  I am pretty average over all.
Eh...Bravo!?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Anfauglir on May 16, 2014, 04:16:44 AM
What is important to me is the evidence to support the claim that is exist or not so I can use the same type of evidence to support my claims.
As you can read here :
Ok. Miracles are the manifestation of God power in the physical word. So what you want for me is backing up my answer "Miracles happen, even today.
The links and the personal testimony I gave you are not enough to back my claim?
I am fishing for acceptable evidence about luck that I could later apply to Miracles.
A few post later I explain it :
I need you guys to answer these two questions. I am having trouble finding sources that you will accept to prove that "Miracles happen, even today". If you give me source that prove that "Luck happen, even today" or that "Luck doesn't happen" or that "luck never happen" I will then have an Idea on what kind of source are needed to prove my point.

All sounds very logical.....just a couple of slight snags.

You defined "miracles", and want to establish what evidence would be sufficient to support (or discount) it.  To do that, you would like us to express the evidence that we would find sufficient to support (or discount) "luck".

The first snag is that you have not defined "luck".  You need to do so, as "luck" (as has been expressed several times) means many different things to many different people.  So you need to define what definition of "luck" you want us to define evidence for, before we can even begin to give you what you are asking for. 

That's the small snag, but hopefully fairly easily resolved.

The second, and far bigger snag, is one you really ought to consider.  Comparing the evidence standards for "luck" and "miracles" becomes more or less relevant the closer that "miracles" and "luck" actually become.  You will need to accept that evidence required for "luck" may not actually match the evidence required for "miracles"......unless you get to a situation where "miracle" and "luck" are essentially indistinguishable.  Something you may want to consider before you push too hard in this direction.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 16, 2014, 04:22:58 AM
The first snag is that you have not defined "luck".  You need to do so, as "luck" (as has been expressed several times) means many different things to many different people.  So you need to define what definition of "luck" you want us to define evidence for, before we can even begin to give you what you are asking for. 
Did it here :
Luck : "events that influence one's life and are seemingly beyond one's control" or "a purposeless, unpredictable and uncontrollable force that shapes events favorably or unfavorably for an individual, group or cause"
For example : I was walking down the street and a car was coming at me Luckily someone was there to warn me and I could duck the car. I was lucky that this person was there. I was lucky to have heard her. I am lucky to be alive today.
Quote
The second, and far bigger snag, is one you really ought to consider.  Comparing the evidence standards for "luck" and "miracles" becomes more or less relevant the closer that "miracles" and "luck" actually become.  You will need to accept that evidence required for "luck" may not actually match the evidence required for "miracles"......unless you get to a situation where "miracle" and "luck" are essentially indistinguishable.  Something you may want to consider before you push too hard in this direction.
It's ok, thank you. I have a plan :)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 16, 2014, 04:29:20 AM
The second, and far bigger snag, is one you really ought to consider.  Comparing the evidence standards for "luck" and "miracles" becomes more or less relevant the closer that "miracles" and "luck" actually become.  You will need to accept that evidence required for "luck" may not actually match the evidence required for "miracles"......unless you get to a situation where "miracle" and "luck" are essentially indistinguishable.  Something you may want to consider before you push too hard in this direction.

And that pretty much sums up the sneakyness of the religious argument. A miracle should not be easily confused with "luck". If the Red Sea parts, or some corpse comes back to life after being dead for 3 days, it is not so much "luck". If a sign in the sky says "God did it". This is not so much "luck".
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Anfauglir on May 16, 2014, 04:35:45 AM
The first snag is that you have not defined "luck".  You need to do so, as "luck" (as has been expressed several times) means many different things to many different people.  So you need to define what definition of "luck" you want us to define evidence for, before we can even begin to give you what you are asking for. 
Did it here :
Luck : "events that influence one's life and are seemingly beyond one's control" or "a purposeless, unpredictable and uncontrollable force that shapes events favorably or unfavorably for an individual, group or cause"

Missed that - thank you.

Those are conflicting definitions, IMO.  The first essentially looks at the question of an individual's control (or not) over events.  The second slants towards an external force that (though directionless) applies an external influence on events causing alterations in the expected outcome.

Which definition do you want me to use?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 16, 2014, 05:00:53 AM
Which definition do you want me to use?
I don't really care. What I care about is the manner you prove your claim. Pick the one you are the most comfortable with.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 05:16:16 AM
GB you say luk has good rhetoric, how so isn't his game sophistry and evasion?



luk you seem cowardly by your failure to engage meaningfully. you obviously have had success by evading points endlessly until people just get to bored to bother answering.

do you consider this technique winning a debate.... i call it cowardice and retarded, you agree?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 05:21:11 AM
Luk what evidence do you have that god spoke the universe into existence.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 16, 2014, 05:22:24 AM
GB you say luk has good rhetoric, how so isn't his game sophistry and evasion?
luk you seem cowardly by your failure to engage meaningfully. you obviously have had success by evading points endlessly until people just get to bored to bother answering.
do you consider this technique winning a debate.... i call it cowardice and retarded, you agree?
Bold mine.
Only people who feel they are losing and want to change the subject use lies and insults.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 16, 2014, 05:25:52 AM
Luk what evidence do you have that god spoke the universe into existence.
That's another subject :)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Defiance on May 16, 2014, 05:57:36 AM
GB you say luk has good rhetoric, how so isn't his game sophistry and evasion?
luk you seem cowardly by your failure to engage meaningfully. you obviously have had success by evading points endlessly until people just get to bored to bother answering.
do you consider this technique winning a debate.... i call it cowardice and retarded, you agree?
Bold mine.
Only people who feel they are losing and want to change the subject use lies and insults.
They are not lies.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 06:44:56 AM
They are not insults.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Anfauglir on May 16, 2014, 06:58:57 AM
Luck : "events that influence one's life and are seemingly beyond one's control" or "a purposeless, unpredictable and uncontrollable force that shapes events favorably or unfavorably for an individual, group or cause"
Those are conflicting definitions, IMO.  The first essentially looks at the question of an individual's control (or not) over events.  The second slants towards an external force that (though directionless) applies an external influence on events causing alterations in the expected outcome.

Which definition do you want me to use?
[/quote]

I don't really care. What I care about is the manner you prove your claim. Pick the one you are the most comfortable with.

Then I'll go with the one you put first: Luck is "effects that influence (my) life and are seemingly beyond (my) control".  How would I go about testing that....

Well, there are certainly things that happen that influence my life.  To take an example from today, it rained while I walked to work.  Was that beyond my control?  So far as I am aware, yes: I am entirely unaware of any way in which I can control whether or not it rains, so it seems that event was beyond my control.

Second example: my train was delayed ten minutes today due to a signal failure.  This affected my life.  Was the signal failure within my control?  Nope - I have no connection to the engineering services that I am aware of, so I see no way I could have exerted control over the event of the train being delayed.

Therefore I accept there are indeed effects that influence my life that are seemingly beyond my control.  Sometimes those effects have what I judge to be a positive influence on my life, sometimes a negative one. 

So really, that definition of luck doesn't require very much evidence for me to accept at all.  I'm not sure how that helps you in trying to provide evidence of a miracle, defined as "the manifestation of god power in the physical world".

Possibly if I examined your SECOND definition, it may be more use to you.  Would you like me to do that, or do you now understand enough about my standards of evidence to provide evidence that miracles happen as per your defintion?  I'm easy either way - but since YOU want the evidence from me, I would suggest that YOU decide whether you want me to answer your second definition.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 07:18:28 AM
Luk uses luck, numbers any conceptual entity to try establish that somehow ideas have an objective existence that can influence the world trying to pre-text it is ideas themselves that can move objects so to speak.

can't wait for the moment he posits the prime mover is the ultimate concept which is ......
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 16, 2014, 07:25:48 AM
Then I'll go with the one you put first: Luck is "effects that influence (my) life and are seemingly beyond (my) control".  How would I go about testing that....

Well, there are certainly things that happen that influence my life.  To take an example from today, it rained while I walked to work.  Was that beyond my control?  So far as I am aware, yes: I am entirely unaware of any way in which I can control whether or not it rains, so it seems that event was beyond my control.

Second example: my train was delayed ten minutes today due to a signal failure.  This affected my life.  Was the signal failure within my control?  Nope - I have no connection to the engineering services that I am aware of, so I see no way I could have exerted control over the event of the train being delayed.

Therefore I accept there are indeed effects that influence my life that are seemingly beyond my control.  Sometimes those effects have what I judge to be a positive influence on my life, sometimes a negative one. 

So really, that definition of luck doesn't require very much evidence for me to accept at all.  I'm not sure how that helps you in trying to provide evidence of a miracle, defined as "the manifestation of god power in the physical world".

Possibly if I examined your SECOND definition, it may be more use to you.  Would you like me to do that, or do you now understand enough about my standards of evidence to provide evidence that miracles happen as per your defintion?  I'm easy either way - but since YOU want the evidence from me, I would suggest that YOU decide whether you want me to answer your second definition.
That's ok I think I can support that miracle happen.
Miracle : The manifestation of God's power on earth.
There are many ways God can manifest his power on earth.
One way he could do it would be to answer my questions when I ask him.
Last time during prayer, he answered one of my questions.
Therefore I accept The manifestation of God's power on earth and the possibility of miracles.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: epidemic on May 16, 2014, 07:29:19 AM
concrete proof of luck.

Most of these people survived injury not because of skill but random dumb luck. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okAeCEODrFs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9NhLLwE7r4

For the sports ones do you think god made those rediculous 3 point shots.  no it was just convergence of events, an unrepeatable throw that 99 out of 100 times one would miss in practice and happens during a game.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: epidemic on May 16, 2014, 07:30:35 AM
Then I'll go with the one you put first: Luck is "effects that influence (my) life and are seemingly beyond (my) control".  How would I go about testing that....

Well, there are certainly things that happen that influence my life.  To take an example from today, it rained while I walked to work.  Was that beyond my control?  So far as I am aware, yes: I am entirely unaware of any way in which I can control whether or not it rains, so it seems that event was beyond my control.

Second example: my train was delayed ten minutes today due to a signal failure.  This affected my life.  Was the signal failure within my control?  Nope - I have no connection to the engineering services that I am aware of, so I see no way I could have exerted control over the event of the train being delayed.

Therefore I accept there are indeed effects that influence my life that are seemingly beyond my control.  Sometimes those effects have what I judge to be a positive influence on my life, sometimes a negative one. 

So really, that definition of luck doesn't require very much evidence for me to accept at all.  I'm not sure how that helps you in trying to provide evidence of a miracle, defined as "the manifestation of god power in the physical world".

Possibly if I examined your SECOND definition, it may be more use to you.  Would you like me to do that, or do you now understand enough about my standards of evidence to provide evidence that miracles happen as per your defintion?  I'm easy either way - but since YOU want the evidence from me, I would suggest that YOU decide whether you want me to answer your second definition.
That's ok I think I can support that miracle happen.
Miracle : The manifestation of God's power on earth.
There are many ways God can manifest his power on earth.
One way he could do it would be to answer my questions when I ask him.
Last time during prayer, he answered one of my questions.
Therefore I accept The manifestation of God's power on earth and the possibility of miracles.


Hey pray for him to answer why he wont heal amputees.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 07:32:48 AM
So god answering your question is a miracle.... seriously?  what the fuk did you ask him?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 16, 2014, 07:44:17 AM
concrete proof of luck.

Most of these people survived injury not because of skill but random dumb luck. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okAeCEODrFs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9NhLLwE7r4

For the sports ones do you think god made those rediculous 3 point shots.  no it was just convergence of events, an unrepeatable throw that 99 out of 100 times one would miss in practice and happens during a game.
Once you answer my question I will gladly answer yours.
Do you believe people when they tell you they were lucky? Do you believe in luck? (please back up your answer)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: epidemic on May 16, 2014, 07:52:19 AM
concrete proof of luck.

Most of these people survived injury not because of skill but random dumb luck. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okAeCEODrFs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9NhLLwE7r4

For the sports ones do you think god made those rediculous 3 point shots.  no it was just convergence of events, an unrepeatable throw that 99 out of 100 times one would miss in practice and happens during a game.
Once you answer my question I will gladly answer yours.
Do you believe people when they tell you they were lucky? Do you believe in luck? (please back up your answer)

Absolutely there are people who are on lucky streaks.  Where random events seem to favor them.  Again this is just laws of averages and probability.  Nothing magical about it, luck does not seem to favor the pure of heart, or the bad, there is no rhyme or reason why come folks have lucky streaks.

Some murderers are lucky to avoid detection for years because of dumb luck.  The camera in the store was broken that day, a cop decided to wait 5 minutes for a cup of coffee, he nailed the right artery as he flailed the knife around.  Is that some higher power giving the murderer luck? 


PS just answer a question, don't demand someone else answer a question first.

do it like this,

"here is my answer, but could you please address this question"
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 07:55:18 AM
Can i answer? Improbable events occurr as long as they do not go against any known laws of nature ie science.  Some use a name luck to label these types of events. it is only a label not a cause or effect.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 16, 2014, 08:03:26 AM
Absolutely there are people who are on lucky streaks.  Where random events seem to favor them.  Again this is just laws of averages and probability.  Nothing magical about it, luck does not seem to favor the pure of heart, or the bad, there is no rhyme or reason why come folks have lucky streaks.

Some murderers are lucky to avoid detection for years because of dumb luck.  The camera in the store was broken that day, a cop decided to wait 5 minutes for a cup of coffee, he nailed the right artery as he flailed the knife around.  Is that some higher power giving the murderer luck?
Thank you. Do you feel that you supported sufficiently your claim?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 16, 2014, 08:05:38 AM
Can i answer? Improbable events occurr as long as they do not go against any known laws of nature ie science.  Some use a name luck to label these types of events. it is only a label not a cause or effect.
Thank you. Do you feel that you supported sufficiently your claim? (which seems to be Yes I believe in luck and I believe people when they tell me they are lucky)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Anfauglir on May 16, 2014, 08:06:46 AM
Miracle : The manifestation of God's power on earth.
There are many ways God can manifest his power on earth.
One way he could do it would be to answer my questions when I ask him.
Last time during prayer, he answered one of my questions.
Therefore I accept The manifestation of God's power on earth and the possibility of miracles.

Sorry, I thought the object was to prove to ME that miracles happen, not to prove it to yourself?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 08:09:46 AM
Yes i believe luck exists linguistically as a label but not as a cause or effect agent.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 16, 2014, 08:11:03 AM
Miracle : The manifestation of God's power on earth.
There are many ways God can manifest his power on earth.
One way he could do it would be to answer my questions when I ask him.
Last time during prayer, he answered one of my questions.
Therefore I accept The manifestation of God's power on earth and the possibility of miracles.
Sorry, I thought the object was to prove to ME that miracles happen, not to prove it to yourself?
I know. But didn't you prove to yourself that luck existed?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: epidemic on May 16, 2014, 08:14:32 AM
Absolutely there are people who are on lucky streaks.  Where random events seem to favor them.  Again this is just laws of averages and probability.  Nothing magical about it, luck does not seem to favor the pure of heart, or the bad, there is no rhyme or reason why come folks have lucky streaks.

Some murderers are lucky to avoid detection for years because of dumb luck.  The camera in the store was broken that day, a cop decided to wait 5 minutes for a cup of coffee, he nailed the right artery as he flailed the knife around.  Is that some higher power giving the murderer luck?
Thank you. Do you feel that you supported sufficiently your claim?

Well you said you would answer me after I answerd you.   So answer!

As for do I feel I supported my claim.   Duh! are you just stalling, Tell me where you feel my claim is unsupported.  You obviously feel it is unsupported and I layed the claim so it is your job to clarify.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 08:17:13 AM
For fuk just agree with whatever luks definitions are and lets see his next step., like its going to go anywhere ...lol
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Anfauglir on May 16, 2014, 08:21:38 AM
Miracle : The manifestation of God's power on earth.
There are many ways God can manifest his power on earth.
One way he could do it would be to answer my questions when I ask him.
Last time during prayer, he answered one of my questions.
Therefore I accept The manifestation of God's power on earth and the possibility of miracles.
Sorry, I thought the object was to prove to ME that miracles happen, not to prove it to yourself?
I know. But didn't you prove to yourself that luck existed?

I proved to my satisfaction that a particular definition of luck existed, based on my observations of existence compared to the definition.

Is your point that I should therefore pray to your god, and that receipt of an answer would prove miracles exist?  If not, I'm not sure in what way your response is intended to prove to ME that miracles exist?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 08:26:22 AM
Luck exists = miracles exists = god exists
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 16, 2014, 08:33:36 AM
Miracle : The manifestation of God's power on earth.
There are many ways God can manifest his power on earth.
One way he could do it would be to answer my questions when I ask him.
Last time during prayer, he answered one of my questions.
Therefore I accept The manifestation of God's power on earth and the possibility of miracles.
Sorry, I thought the object was to prove to ME that miracles happen, not to prove it to yourself?
I know. But didn't you prove to yourself that luck existed?

I proved to my satisfaction that a particular definition of luck existed, based on my observations of existence compared to the definition.

Is your point that I should therefore pray to your god, and that receipt of an answer would prove miracles exist?  If not, I'm not sure in what way your response is intended to prove to ME that miracles exist?
My point being that you didn't prove ME that luck existed. You prove it to yourself. And I'm ok with that! I just used the same type of arguments to prove my point.
Of course if you where to pray God and he gave you an answer you would also prove to yourself that God can manifest his power on earth.
I proved to my satisfaction that a particular definition of miracle existed, based on my observations of existence compared to the definition.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 08:38:39 AM
Luk you have proved nothing other than you have little capacity to reason.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Anfauglir on May 16, 2014, 08:41:46 AM
My point being that you didn't prove ME that luck existed......

And?  I thought that the point of this exchange was for you to be able to prove to US that miracles existed.  There's no point you proving to yourself that miracles exist, no matter whose terms you use - we know you think miracles exist, and we don't.

If this whole exchange has been for you to be able to say "ha-ha!  I used YOUR terms, and proved to myself that miracles exist!  Atheist lose!", it has been a singularly pointless exercise : not least because your alleged goal (to "prove" miracles using atheist criteria) still hasn't been acheived, because (as I said before), there are significant differences between the definition I responded to on "luck", and the definition you are using for "miracles".

Its clear to me that there is no further point in my engaging with you: I no longer believe that you are honestly trying to find common ground or to provide any evidence for your claims, but rather to dodge questions and cherrypick responses so that you can have your "ha ha!" moment. 

Sorry, I don't have time for that, so I'm bowing out of our exchanges as I do not think there is anything else you can offer me.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 08:49:29 AM
^^ Luk the first paragraphs, explain your life well....you are pathetic. not an insult or a lie i hope you can understand why one day.

because people think you are too much of a waste of time is NOT a good thing. i doubt you could comprehend that... the mind is. such a terrible thing to waste.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 16, 2014, 08:50:40 AM
My point being that you didn't prove ME that luck existed......

And?  I thought that the point of this exchange was for you to be able to prove to US that miracles existed. 
For that I asked for the process I should use to prove something. You chose to prove it to yourself. If you want, you can reformulate your answer to the question about luck and prove to ME that it exist. I will then be able to follow your though process to prove to YOU that miracles existed. Right now I am still missing the required "though process"
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 16, 2014, 08:54:44 AM
My point being that you didn't prove ME that luck existed. You prove it to yourself. And I'm ok with that! I just used the same type of arguments to prove my point.
Of course if you where to pray God and he gave you an answer you would also prove to yourself that God can manifest his power on earth.
I proved to my satisfaction that a particular definition of miracle existed, based on my observations of existence compared to the definition.

And all of this is 100% aside from the point (a complete red herring fallacy) - since I already told you early on what evidence you would need to provide me in order to DEMONSTRATE your claims to the supernatural (hint: demonstrate means available for others to evaluate - just like the salesman at the door). It makes absolutely no difference if the salesman can "prove to himself" that his magic product works (and you damn well know this). Your dishonest debate tactics are very telling of your motives. You have merely assumed that your subjective personal experiences are "God", when in fact you have neither presented any demonstrable (independently verifiable) evidence for such claims, nor have you provided any sound reasoning for thinking your experiences are this 'thing' you are calling "God". Even more importantly, you haven't even attempted to define the term "God" in any coherent way that refers to any actual existing thing anywhere. Again, it is just a placeholder for where you are ignorant.

Perhaps you can attempt to demonstrate how we can distinguish between a "miracle" and a non-miracle, but for now the challenge still stands before you to actually demonstrate to me, just as you said you would do earlier, that "Miracles happen everyday" and that "God manifests in the world". Stop with your rabbit trails and actually start meeting the challenge - or please come clean and admit that you cannot.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 16, 2014, 08:57:50 AM
My point being that you didn't prove ME that luck existed......

And?  I thought that the point of this exchange was for you to be able to prove to US that miracles existed. 
For that I asked for the process I should use to prove something. You chose to prove it to yourself. If you want, you can reformulate your answer to the question about luck and prove to ME that it exist. I will then be able to follow your though process to prove to YOU that miracles existed. Right now I am still missing the required "though process"

I've already given you the process, on at least two occasions (and others have as well) and still you have ignored it. Furthermore, I have responded to your false analogy of "luck" (b/c it cannot be compared to an alleged existing "thing" called "God") and still you persistent in attempting to use it. Why are you so dishonest in your debate tactics?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 16, 2014, 09:03:43 AM
My point being that you didn't prove ME that luck existed. You prove it to yourself. And I'm ok with that! I just used the same type of arguments to prove my point.
Of course if you where to pray God and he gave you an answer you would also prove to yourself that God can manifest his power on earth.
I proved to my satisfaction that a particular definition of miracle existed, based on my observations of existence compared to the definition.

And all of this 100% aside from the point (a complete red herring fallacy) - since I already told you early on what evidence you would need to provide me in order to DEMONSTRATE your claims to the supernatural (hint: demonstrate means available for others to evaluate - just like the salesman at the door). It makes absolutely no difference if the salesman can "prove to himself" that his magic product works (and you damn well know this). Your dishonest debate tactics are very telling of your motives. You have merely assumed that your subjective personal experiences are "God", when in fact you have neither presented any demonstrable (independently verifiable) evidence for such claims, nor have you provided any sound reasoning for thinking your experiences are this thing 'thing' you are calling "God". Even more importantly, you haven't even attempted to define the term "God" in any coherent way that refers to any actual existing thing anywhere. Again, it is just a placeholder for where you are ignorant.

Perhaps you can attempt to demonstrate how we can distinguish between a "miracle" and a non-miracle, but for now the challenge still stands before you to actually demonstrate to me, just as you said you would do earlier, that "Miracles happen everyday" and that "God manifests in the world". Stop with your rabbit trails and actually start meeting the challenge - or please come clean and admit that you cannot.
You know I can't yet. I told you that much many many maaaaany posts ago (post #96):
I need you guys to answer these two questions. I am having trouble finding sources that you will accept to prove that "Miracles happen, even today". If you give me source that prove that "Luck happen, even today" or that "Luck doesn't happen" or that "luck never happen" I will then have an Idea on what kind of source are needed to prove my point.

Do you think that people can get lucky? even today? (yes or no will suffice)
If possible could you back up your answer? (if can't back up your yes or no that's ok too)

By luck I mean for example : I was walking down the street and a car was coming at me Luckily someone was there to warn me and I could duck the car. I was lucky that this person was there. I was lucky to have heard her. I am lucky to be alive today.
That kind of luck. Does it help?
This could have been done and finished a long time ago if you weren't so stubborn to not give any help at all.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 16, 2014, 09:05:05 AM
I've already given you the process, on at least two occasions (and others have as well) and still you have ignored it. Furthermore, I have responded to your false analogy of "luck" (b/c it cannot be compared to an alleged existing "thing" called "God") and still you persistent in attempting to use it. Why are you so dishonest in your debate tactics?
What!?!? When!? What! Where? ARG I missed it?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 16, 2014, 09:05:28 AM
Lukvance -

This is a thread you started, so I think it's fair to ask:

What has the last few pages of conversation regarding luck have to do with "Why can't/wont god heal amputees?"

Is it time for you to fork this into a new topic or is the conversation eventually going to lead back to the actual topic of your thread?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 09:07:37 AM
The guy just plays back his opponents argument replacing the you and me with me and you.... this is some weird shit.


i don't think luk is playing with a full deck of cards.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 16, 2014, 09:08:57 AM
You know I can't yet. I told you that much many many maaaaany posts ago (post #96):


This is even more dishonesty. You didn't say, "I can't do it". You said you were "having trouble".  Dude, get real.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 16, 2014, 09:18:46 AM
I've already given you the process, on at least two occasions (and others have as well) and still you have ignored it. Furthermore, I have responded to your false analogy of "luck" (b/c it cannot be compared to an alleged existing "thing" called "God") and still you persistent in attempting to use it. Why are you so dishonest in your debate tactics?
What!?!? When!? What! Where? ARG I missed it?

Just to be clear and honest (no judgement or insults, please, we have enough of that) What exactly are you expecting from me? Discussion while. What do you want to discuss?
I want you to actually backup your claims that you made earlier with actual demonstrable evidence - not hear-say, not anecdote, not obfuscation, not vague notions which are nowhere near extraordinary, but clear independently verifiable evidence (just like could be done with planetary motion or my bank).


You did not miss it. You ignored it. I also mentioned these things in #68 AND in #98 (and elsewhere) about the kinds of evidence that YOU would accept for a salesman selling an alleged magic potion at the door. Others (such as nogodsforme) mentioned these types of things in similar fashion. You have been obfuscating and ignoring these posts the entire time.

All of this nonsense by you, and we haven't even gotten into what your bible says about you being able to actually demonstrate the miraculous (Mark 16, John 14, Matt 18 & 21).
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 09:21:06 AM
^ last paragraph......that's the point.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: GoatMan on May 16, 2014, 11:24:53 AM
God CAN and WILL heal amputees. He will give them something better than new legs or prosthetics. He promises an IMPERISHABLE body. He will give this to more than just amputees. He gives this to "all" (vs 22). But death comes first. It's all in 1 Corinthians 15. You may not believe the Bible but don't say the Bible doesn't answer the WWGHA question because the answer is right there- He will heal them. But perhaps it is only on these clearly defined terms, that they may have to die a physical death first (vs 36).
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: epidemic on May 16, 2014, 11:32:54 AM
God CAN and WILL heal amputees. He will give them something better than new legs or prosthetics. He promises an IMPERISHABLE body. He will give this to more than just amputees. He gives this to "all" (vs 22). But death comes first. It's all in 1 Corinthians 15. You may not believe the Bible but don't say the Bible doesn't answer the WWGHA question because the answer is right there- He will heal them. But perhaps it is only on these clearly defined terms, that they may have to die a physical death first (vs 36).

You miss the point of the question.

WWGHA is a question of why won't god ever perform a miracle that is verifiable.  God works miracles on Cancer patients upon requested prayers, god will Cure a painful back.  But god will never grow an ear back, a leg back, a toe back.  God in the historical documents you follow used to work outward miaracles but as of about 2000 years ago he just stopped doing anything verifiable. 

All this talk about how he will heal you after death is great, but what made That kid with out arms or legs worthy of being born without arms or legs, why is that his cross to bear when there is another family next door which has nothing but atheist douche bags living there who lie cheat and steal from their neighbors.  Why are their kids healthy.  What about kids with genetic disorders that allow them to live for 1 or 2 years in agonizing pain.  What lesson do they learn from this that healthy kids did not need to learn?


As you stated above, he heals everyone in heaven, so some people get a shitty life with shitty parents and dissease pain and agony for their entire life then they get put in heaven with everyone else who did not need to go through those trials.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 16, 2014, 11:40:14 AM
God CAN and WILL heal amputees. He will give them something better than new legs or prosthetics. He promises an IMPERISHABLE body. He will give this to more than just amputees. He gives this to "all" (vs 22). But death comes first. It's all in 1 Corinthians 15. You may not believe the Bible but don't say the Bible doesn't answer the WWGHA question because the answer is right there- He will heal them. But perhaps it is only on these clearly defined terms, that they may have to die a physical death first (vs 36).

Read your bible (Mark 16, John 14, Matt 18 and 21). Your bible says he should be healing them HEAR AND NOW. That is the subject of the site.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: screwtape on May 16, 2014, 12:13:20 PM
God CAN and WILL heal amputees. He will give them something better than new legs or prosthetics. He promises an IMPERISHABLE body. He will give this to more than just amputees. He gives this to "all" (vs 22). But death comes first. It's all in 1 Corinthians 15. You may not believe the Bible but don't say the Bible doesn't answer the WWGHA question because the answer is right there- He will heal them. But perhaps it is only on these clearly defined terms, that they may have to die a physical death first (vs 36).

You miss the point of the question.

You both got it wrong.  My boiler plate response:

There is a certian type of xian who attempts to justify his or her god beliefs by claiming that people are miraculously healed of various afflictions by divine intervention.  The afflictions may include cancer, diabetes, coma, heart conditions, tooth decay, halitosis, spastic colon, etc.  We frequently hear anecdotes about how some church group prayed for some guy and the next day he was completely healed. 

But there are several problems with this kind of reasoning.  First, data shows many of these types of afflictions sometimes "clear up" without any kind of prayers.  It seems to be a natural response or a misdiagnosis.  Second, people of all religions make the same claims.  And last, there is a whole class of ailments that are never, ever cured by prayer or naturally. 

People never regrow lost limbs.  Lost eyes never regrow in the empty sockets.  Retarded people never gain normal mental capacity. Alzheimers and Dementia sufferers never recover.  Old people never rejuvenate. 

This has clear implications about a god that supposedly heals people.  It leaves you only a few conclusions about such a god.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Jehovah God on May 16, 2014, 01:56:08 PM
It's very simple:  I don't wanna heal amputees!  I'm being entertained by how those deformed creatures act like poodles begging me for things they're not gonna get   Actually, they'll be healed.....when they get their new bodies on Judgment Day when they're on their way to Hell bwhahahahaha!!!!!
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 02:43:09 PM
^ that does sound like yaweh.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Jehovah God on May 16, 2014, 02:55:35 PM
Hey that's not what yo mama said last night!
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 03:29:02 PM
This kid could be that who is him.


yo
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: nogodsforme on May 16, 2014, 05:26:31 PM
Hey that's not what yo mama said last night!

Said god to Jesus.

Bada bing.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 05:55:49 PM
Impregnating a virgin in her sleep..... is that even legal?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Defiance on May 16, 2014, 06:15:00 PM
Hey that's not what yo mama said last night!

Said god to Jesus.

Bada bing.
So now he had sex with with own mom, and is his own dad and son?

Incest overload.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 06:19:45 PM
Well..... yes. you got a problem with that, close minded biggot?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Defiance on May 16, 2014, 06:26:38 PM
Well..... yes. you got a problem with that, close minded biggot?
No, it's ok as long as the person who says not to do something is the one who does it.

Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 06:48:06 PM
Comes with the job.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Jehovah God on May 16, 2014, 07:11:51 PM
"Impregnating a virgin in her sleep..... is that even legal?"


If me does it, it is.  You see pal, human laws don't overrule me or mine!  I created you pal, I get to knock up whoever the fuck I wanna!
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 07:41:10 PM
Not in my state, your holy rapist ass would get arrested. i think you been trying to knock your own hand up too much...not cool.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 17, 2014, 11:50:11 AM
I've already given you the process, on at least two occasions (and others have as well) and still you have ignored it. Furthermore, I have responded to your false analogy of "luck" (b/c it cannot be compared to an alleged existing "thing" called "God") and still you persistent in attempting to use it. Why are you so dishonest in your debate tactics?
What!?!? When!? What! Where? ARG I missed it?

Just to be clear and honest (no judgement or insults, please, we have enough of that) What exactly are you expecting from me? Discussion while. What do you want to discuss?
I want you to actually backup your claims that you made earlier with actual demonstrable evidence - not hear-say, not anecdote, not obfuscation, not vague notions which are nowhere near extraordinary, but clear independently verifiable evidence (just like could be done with planetary motion or my bank).


You did not miss it. You ignored it. I also mentioned these things in #68 AND in #98 (and elsewhere) about the kinds of evidence that YOU would accept for a salesman selling an alleged magic potion at the door. Others (such as nogodsforme) mentioned these types of things in similar fashion. You have been obfuscating and ignoring these posts the entire time.

All of this nonsense by you, and we haven't even gotten into what your bible says about you being able to actually demonstrate the miraculous (Mark 16, John 14, Matt 18 & 21).


Oh! You did not gave me the process. You told me what I must do. Even if the proof was already made earlier. You told me to prove that miracle exist without using the testimony of others. Let me enlighten you. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE.
It's like if you wanted me to prove that my mom love me without giving you testimonies.
And the truth is you know it is impossible without using testimonies that's why you never backed up your claims about Luck. You cannot prove that luck exist without testimonies. Stop being stubborn and move on.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 17, 2014, 11:52:57 AM
Lukvance -
This is a thread you started, so I think it's fair to ask:
What has the last few pages of conversation regarding luck have to do with "Why can't/wont god heal amputees?"
Is it time for you to fork this into a new topic or is the conversation eventually going to lead back to the actual topic of your thread?
You are right. I must put a stop on this non sense started by median. I wish we could remove all those posts about luck but I don't think we can.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 17, 2014, 11:55:04 AM
The guy just plays back his opponents argument replacing the you and me with me and you.... this is some weird shit.
i don't think luk is playing with a full deck of cards.
Thank you. How does this help the conversation?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 17, 2014, 12:00:24 PM
God in the historical documents you follow used to work outward miaracles but as of about 2000 years ago he just stopped doing anything verifiable.
Errr Not true look at post #50 and the following I posted. You will read that miracles are still happening and that they are verified very closely.
What about a "Tubercular peritonitis with complications for seven years, extreme emaciation and oscillating fever. Comatose when brought to Lourdes" person? She was cured. After praying God, not a magic pink unicorns, pixies or lucky leprechauns. God.
Now, I gave you the link to the report of the act. What else would you need?

Edit: I just read about the doctor who examined her : "Any doctors practicing in or visiting Lourdes may apply to become members of the Lourdes Medical Bureau. Additionally, nurses, physiotherapists, pharmacists and members of other allied health professions may apply to become members. Members are given (and invited to wear) a small but distinctive badge displaying a red cross on a white background surmounted by the word Credo ("I believe"). However, members of any religious affiliation or none are welcomed."
The Medical Bureau investigates the claim, by examining the patient, the casenotes, and any test results (which can include biopsies, X-rays, CT scans, blood test results, and so on). A full investigation requires that one of its members investigates every detail of the case in question, and immerses him/herself in the literature around that condition to ensure that up-to-date academic knowledge is applied to the decision. This investigator may also consult with other colleagues about the case.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Jehovah God on May 17, 2014, 03:12:34 PM
Not in my state, your holy rapist ass would get arrested. i think you been trying to knock your own hand up too much...not cool.

Oh I'd get arrested?  You and what army punk?  Good luck wrapping those cuffs around my ghostly hands!  They'd just go right through!  As for knocking my sexy hands up, yeah, that's how it rains down there on Earth!
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 17, 2014, 03:37:59 PM
No army required, a tazer will do it and that gadget from ghost busters.  you are old school remember your scripture you can be defeated by an iron chariot. How you gonna go against a modern tank special ed god.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 17, 2014, 05:16:54 PM
I've already given you the process, on at least two occasions (and others have as well) and still you have ignored it. Furthermore, I have responded to your false analogy of "luck" (b/c it cannot be compared to an alleged existing "thing" called "God") and still you persistent in attempting to use it. Why are you so dishonest in your debate tactics?
What!?!? When!? What! Where? ARG I missed it?

Just to be clear and honest (no judgement or insults, please, we have enough of that) What exactly are you expecting from me? Discussion while. What do you want to discuss?
I want you to actually backup your claims that you made earlier with actual demonstrable evidence - not hear-say, not anecdote, not obfuscation, not vague notions which are nowhere near extraordinary, but clear independently verifiable evidence (just like could be done with planetary motion or my bank).


You did not miss it. You ignored it. I also mentioned these things in #68 AND in #98 (and elsewhere) about the kinds of evidence that YOU would accept for a salesman selling an alleged magic potion at the door. Others (such as nogodsforme) mentioned these types of things in similar fashion. You have been obfuscating and ignoring these posts the entire time.

All of this nonsense by you, and we haven't even gotten into what your bible says about you being able to actually demonstrate the miraculous (Mark 16, John 14, Matt 18 & 21).


Oh! You did not gave me the process. You told me what I must do. Even if the proof was already made earlier. You told me to prove that miracle exist without using the testimony of others. Let me enlighten you. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE.
It's like if you wanted me to prove that my mom love me without giving you testimonies.
And the truth is you know it is impossible without using testimonies that's why you never backed up your claims about Luck. You cannot prove that luck exist without testimonies. Stop being stubborn and move on.

I've already told you that I reject others assertions about "luck" existing, just like I reject your assertion about miracles. So it sounds like all you have are CLAIMS about miracles, and nothing more, right? And you are practicing a double-standard because you are hypocritically taking someone else's word for it only when it pertains to your assumed theology and none other. That is the very pinnacle of intellectual dishonesty.

Just because someone SAYS a miracle occurred, doesn't make it true. Stop acting like you don't know this. False, mistaken, and inaccurate claims are extremely common among human beings (such as when people used to claim that Zeus made the lightening or that Mohammad rode to heaven on a winged horse). Why are you setting the bar so low for claims to the supernatural (with your assumed theology) but not applying the same low standard with other claims to the supernatural that contradict yours?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 17, 2014, 05:38:07 PM
Oh! You did not gave me the process. You told me what I must do. Even if the proof was already made earlier. You told me to prove that miracle exist without using the testimony of others. Let me enlighten you. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE.
It's like if you wanted me to prove that my mom love me without giving you testimonies.
And the truth is you know it is impossible without using testimonies that's why you never backed up your claims about Luck. You cannot prove that luck exist without testimonies. Stop being stubborn and move on.


I've already told you that I reject others assertions about "luck" existing, just like I reject your assertion about miracles. So it sounds like all you have are CLAIMS about miracles, and nothing more, right? And you are practicing a double-standard because you are hypocritically taking someone else's word for it only when it pertains to your assumed theology and none other. That is the very pinnacle of intellectual dishonesty.

Just because someone SAYS a miracle occurred, doesn't make it true. Stop acting like you don't know this. False, mistaken, and inaccurate claims are extremely common among human beings (such as when people used to claim that Zeus made the lightening or that Mohammad rode to heaven on a winged horse). Why are you setting the bar so low for claims to the supernatural (with your assumed theology) but not applying the same low standard with other claims to the supernatural that contradict yours?
My mother loves me. She told me so. I don't need more proof I trust her.
I've met that girl, she had cancer in terminal phase. She was cured when the doctors couldn't cure her. She told me it was because of God. I believe her, I don't need more proof. I had a one on one meeting with God, I experienced a miracle. I don't need more proof. Stop being stubborn and Move on!
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Jesuis on May 17, 2014, 06:11:45 PM
Well..... yes. you got a problem with that, close minded biggot?
World class response.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Jesuis on May 17, 2014, 06:15:29 PM
Its clear to me that there is no further point in my engaging with you:
I look forward to such a debate. (World class response.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 17, 2014, 06:15:56 PM

My mother loves me. She told me so. I don't need more proof I trust her.
I've met that girl, she had cancer in terminal phase. She was cured when the doctors couldn't cure her. She told me it was because of God. I believe her, I don't need more proof. I had a one on one meeting with God, I experienced a miracle. I don't need more proof. Stop being stubborn and Move on!

That is called anecdote. Someone was sick with cancer and they got better. That is all the information you have. But you went beyond that by merely assuming (just like the girl did) what the cause of the cancer remission was. Except you do this dishonestly because you wouldn't believe that another persons religion (which contradicts yours) was actually true if they made a similar claim about their god healing them.

Once again, you are practicing a double-standard.

Pertaining love, your mother did not just tell you. She likely gave you lots of demonstrable and independently verifiable evidence of her feelings of care toward you. So you are drawing another false analogy.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 17, 2014, 06:42:36 PM

My mother loves me. She told me so. I don't need more proof I trust her.
I've met that girl, she had cancer in terminal phase. She was cured when the doctors couldn't cure her. She told me it was because of God. I believe her, I don't need more proof. I had a one on one meeting with God, I experienced a miracle. I don't need more proof. Stop being stubborn and Move on!
That is called anecdote. Someone was sick with cancer and they got better. That is all the information you have.
No no no. Someone was sick with cancer, doctors couldn't do anything to cure her, she prayed GOD and then got better. That's the information I have.

Quote
Pertaining love, your mother did not just tell you. She likely gave you lots of demonstrable and independently verifiable evidence of her feelings of care toward you. So you are drawing another false analogy.
No no no the "demonstrable and independently verifiable evidence" are just hearsay according to your standarts. She (or me) is lying! And you weren't there when she told me she loved me. You don't know what happen before! I told you she told me and I believed her I didn't need more proof!
Quote
you are practicing a double-standard.[...]you do this dishonestly
Really!? You really know me better than myself then. What a gift (and a curse) you must have.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 17, 2014, 06:56:57 PM
No no no. Someone was sick with cancer, doctors couldn't do anything to cure her, she prayed GOD and then got better. That's the information I have.

Correlation does not equal causation. You should know that.

No no no the "demonstrable and independently verifiable evidence" are just hearsay according to your standarts. She (or me) is lying! And you weren't there when she told me she loved me. You don't know what happen before! I told you she told me and I believed her I didn't need more proof!

NOPE. We do not just take people's word for it without actual evidence in such cases. You need to actually compare apples to apples. So stop with these false analogies. If the ONLY information you have from someone is that they SAY, "I love you", do you believe them? With your mother, there is demonstrable evidence that can be shown over a course of time that displays the concept of caring (i.e. - love), but you do not have that with an alleged miracle, or deity etc.

The second reason this is a false analogy (another logical fallacy) is that you are once again attempting to compare supernatural claims to natural ones - as if someone saying so is equally valid in ALL cases - when it's not. You really need to study logic and get up to speed here.

Quote
you are practicing a double-standard.[...]you do this dishonestly
Really!? You really know me better than myself then. What a gift (and a curse) you must have.

Answer the question honestly: Do you believe (as true and actual) the claims of all supernatural or extraordinary claims that you hear on the basis of hear-say alone?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 17, 2014, 07:08:05 PM
No no no the "demonstrable and independently verifiable evidence" are just hearsay according to your standarts. She (or me) is lying! And you weren't there when she told me she loved me. You don't know what happen before! I told you she told me and I believed her I didn't need more proof!
NOPE. We do not just take people's word for it without actual evidence in such cases. You need to actually compare apples to apples. So stop with these false analogies. If the ONLY information you have from someone is that they SAY, "I love you", do you believe them? With your mother, there is demonstrable evidence that can be shown over a course of time that displays the concept of caring (i.e. - love), but you do not have that with an alleged miracle, or deity etc.
Yes I do have demonstrable evidence. The cancer was there and now its not. Doctors I trust can verify that the cancer is not there anymore.

Quote
The second reason this is a false analogy (another logical fallacy) is that you are once again attempting to compare supernatural claims to natural ones - as if someone saying so is equally valid in ALL cases - when it's not. You really need to study logic and get up to speed here.

Whose the illogical one. I used more than one example. Stop being stubborn and move on.

Quote
Answer the question honestly: Do you believe (as true and actual) the claims of all supernatural or extraordinary claims that you hear on the basis of hear-say alone?
Yes, as long as they don't impact me.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Jehovah God on May 17, 2014, 07:28:38 PM
No army required, a tazer will do it and that gadget from ghost busters.  you are old school remember your scripture you can be defeated by an iron chariot. How you gonna go against a modern tank special ed god.

Zap! Awww your tazer is done gone before you could fire!!  (I'm all knowing and this confrontation will be happening December 4, 2029), and it's landed in your eye! ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 17, 2014, 08:31:39 PM
How come yr so scared of iron chariots and bronze age technology that could build a structure to reach heaven and let goat herders in to kick yr ass.


its in yr book.



don't sound very tough to me.  you sound more like a whiney bitch.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 17, 2014, 09:42:53 PM
Jehovah God lukvance just smitted you, check yr darwins
.... isn't that blashemy? what are you gonna do about it?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Jehovah God on May 17, 2014, 11:14:42 PM
How come yr so scared of iron chariots and bronze age technology that could build a structure to reach heaven and let goat herders in to kick yr ass.


its in yr book.



don't sound very tough to me.  you sound more like a whiney bitch.


It's very simple!  I lied about being scared of iron chariots!  Me being scared, and not to mention Jesus being abused on a cross is a verrrry good tool of manipulation to get people to kiss my feet and ignore the game that I'm playing, the fact that I created everyone to sin, the fact that Satan is my partner in crime...ohhhh my believers, they'll fall for anything as long as I got them under my control.  I've also got it fixed to where I'll betray them and Satan and send them all into Hell.  Ain't I a genius or what?????
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 17, 2014, 11:47:59 PM
^ I can respect that, still think you are. a whiney bitch with no friends tho.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 17, 2014, 11:55:38 PM
Yo luk i get you don't get much but it goes like this,


A someone has cancer

B same someone cancer goes into remission

C someone else prayed gor cancer to heal.


unless C can be repeated under controlled conditions in a double blind series of trials for a large population of cancer sufferers. and the results analysed by an independent and qualified team then you don't have proof you only have........try finishing the sentence.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 18, 2014, 12:00:07 AM
Yo luk i get you don't get much but it goes like this,
A someone has cancer
B same someone cancer goes into remission
C someone else prayed gor cancer to heal.
unless C can be repeated under controlled conditions in a double blind series of trials for a large population of cancer sufferers. and the results analysed by an independent and qualified team then you don't have proof you only have........try finishing the sentence.
Proof for what? Isn't the research you describe, to determine if prayer cures cancer?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 18, 2014, 12:22:40 AM
Proof that determines your friends recovery was due to prayer or just a coincidence..  a black cat could have shat on a mat the same night your friend was cured.  there is no way in your world of superstition to determine if the recovery was due to the cat shatting on the mat, prayer or a zillion other events ....is there luk.


And 1000 other cases of cancer going into remission with or without prayer still would not prove a miracle.


lets set up a double blind test to see if you can change something with prayer.


Curious do you believe in a literal interpretation of the bible?

Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 18, 2014, 12:24:35 AM

Yes I do have demonstrable evidence. The cancer was there and now its not. Doctors I trust can verify that the cancer is not there anymore.

You must not read my posts very carefully. I asked you for demonstrable evidence of the "God" causing the cancer to go away, not of the cancer going away. If I wake up in the morning and my car is missing I could say Santa Claus stole it, but there would need to be actual demonstrable evidence of such a claim. That is what you need to present.


Quote
Answer the question honestly: Do you believe (as true and actual) the claims of all supernatural or extraordinary claims that you hear on the basis of hear-say alone?
Yes, as long as they don't impact me.

That's not what I asked you. I asked you if you actually believe all claims to the supernatural by anyone with beliefs which contradict your own. Whether such claims effect you or not is entirely irrelevant to the question.

Secondly, and I said this before, belief is not a choice. You cannot will yourself to actually believe that a pink flying elephant is in your room right now. You can say you believe it, but that would not be genuine belief. In order to actually believe something one must be convinced by some means, either by sound reasons or unsound reasons.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 18, 2014, 12:49:56 AM
I'm also interested in why it's not a miracle that people DONT have cancer. Who gave cancer sufferers cancer in the first place?

It's a bit like Abe being told to sacrifice his son, and then being told: no it's all a joke.

(But wait a minute Abe is not a real person, because he is in the Old Testament... unless it's proven that he was a real person, and then the event actually happened.)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 18, 2014, 12:56:55 AM
I'm also interested in why it's not a miracle that people DONT have cancer. Who gave cancer sufferers cancer in the first place?

It's a bit like Abe being told to sacrifice his son, and then being told: no it's all a joke.

(But wait a minute Abe is not a real person, because he is in the Old Testament... unless it's proven that he was a real person, and then the event actually happened.)

The funnier part is that if Mr. Lukboy cannot rationally distinguish a miracle from a non-miracle (as he said elsewhere that God is "everything" and thus all must be miracle) then the term miracle doesn't have any meaning either. Again, it's just a placeholder for gullibility and ignorance.

"I can't explain how the cancer went away. So God did it!" - textbook argument from ignorance fallacy.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 18, 2014, 01:03:18 AM
Is winning the lottery a miracle?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 18, 2014, 01:15:40 AM
there is no way in your world of superstition to determine if the recovery was due to the cat shatting on the mat, prayer or a zillion other events ....is there luk.
You are right. Like there is no way to really know if my mother really loves me or if she is pressurized by standards in society to love me or that the cat sitting on the mat made me win the lottery last Sunday. Many things in our world are like that, you just have to live with it and grow up a little.
Quote
Curious do you believe in a literal interpretation of the bible?
What do you mean by literal? I believe that the only event I'm sure of took place are those in the Gospel. I believe that Noah's flood story is not an actual fact. Does that answer your question?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 18, 2014, 01:19:56 AM
Is winning the lottery a miracle?
It depends. Did you pray God before winning?  Is this an event not ascribable to human power or the laws of nature? If so, yes it can be called a miracle.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 18, 2014, 01:25:34 AM
So how do you go from there is no way to know to god did it?

You don't have to just live with it. if you are a slave then you have to live with what your master desires. if you ate free you can do more than just live with it.  sounds like YOU need to grow up.


what gives you the right to say the flood is not true but other bits are?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 18, 2014, 01:26:45 AM
Is winning the lottery a miracle?
It depends. Did you pray God before winning?  Is this an event not ascribable to human power or the laws of nature? If so, yes it can be called a miracle.

How does it matter, whatsoever, if a person prays (or poops) before a specific rare event occurs? Again, you do know that correlation does not equal causation, don't you? And how exactly can you make the determination that an event cannot be "ascribable to human power or the laws of nature"??
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 18, 2014, 01:33:23 AM
You must not read my posts very carefully. I asked you for demonstrable evidence of the "God" causing the cancer to go away, not of the cancer going away. If I wake up in the morning and my car is missing I could say Santa Claus stole it, but there would need to be actual demonstrable evidence of such a claim. That is what you need to present.

You forgot again the part when she prayed God, but that's ok.
The kind of evidence you ask for do not exist outside testimony. Let me refresh your memory (You must not read my posts very carefully) :
You told me to prove that miracle exist without using the testimony of others. Let me enlighten you. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE.
[...]
And the truth is you know it is impossible without using testimonies that's why you never backed up your claims about Luck. You cannot prove that luck exist without testimonies.
Stop being stubborn and move on.

Quote
Whether such claims effect you or not is entirely irrelevant to the question.
Maybe for you but for me it is the principal reason why I would believe others testimony or not.
For example :
- You tell me that you have been cured by Para-Brahman. I don't know you, it doesn't impact me. I believe you.
- You tell me that you have been cured by Para-Brahman and that I should pray him. I does impact me, I don't believe you.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 18, 2014, 01:34:14 AM
I get it, if you pray and win the lottery its a miracle if you don't pray and win its not a miracle if you don't pray and do win its not a miracle if you pray not to win and you win its not a miracle if you don't pray and don't win its.....?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 18, 2014, 01:40:22 AM
How does it matter, whatsoever, if a person prays (or poops) before a specific rare event occurs?

I matters in the sense that the result might be accredited to prayer (or poop) depending on the person.

Quote
Again, you do know that correlation does not equal causation, don't you?
Yes (again)
Quote
And how exactly can you make the determination that an event cannot be "ascribable to human power or the laws of nature"??
It depends on each situation.
Me floating in the air is not ascribable to human power or the laws of nature.
Me floating in the air inside an indoor skydiving machine is ascribable to human power or the laws of nature.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 18, 2014, 01:42:39 AM
So basically if suits you its a miracle if it doesn't its not.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 18, 2014, 01:43:23 AM
I get it, if you pray and win the lottery its a miracle if you don't pray and win its not a miracle if you don't pray and do win its not a miracle if you pray not to win and you win its not a miracle if you don't pray and don't win its.....?
...ok, try again later. :)
Don't forget that very important part : Is this an event not ascribable to human power or the laws of nature?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 18, 2014, 01:46:27 AM
So basically if suits you its a miracle if it doesn't its not.
Don't forget that very important part : Is this an event not ascribable to human power or the laws of nature?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 18, 2014, 01:47:32 AM
People that win the lottery and pray is not ascribable to natural laws but winning and not praying is. ...can you comment on the rest of my post as well please.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 18, 2014, 01:49:11 AM
Winning the lottery ascibable or not??

Yes or no.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 18, 2014, 01:51:55 AM
You forgot again the part when she prayed God, but that's ok.
The kind of evidence you ask for do not exist outside testimony. Let me refresh your memory (You must not read my posts very carefully) :

I don't care if someone "prayed", or pooped, or farted, or punched someone in the face. Correlation does not equal causation. So you are arguing irrationally again. This is called the Post Hoc Ergo Proper Hoc fallacy. FAIL.

Just because one event comes after another event, does not mean (in any way) that the first event caused the second event. You should know that.


Quote
Whether such claims effect you or not is entirely irrelevant to the question.
Maybe for you but for me it is the principal reason why I would believe others testimony or not.
For example :
- You tell me that you have been cured by Para-Brahman. I don't know you, it doesn't impact me. I believe you.
- You tell me that you have been cured by Para-Brahman and that I should pray him. I does impact me, I don't believe you.

You just contradicted yourself. You admitted that if I told you I was cured by Para-Brahman you would not know (which means you would be agnostic about it and/or undecided). And then you turned right around and said you would believe that I was cured by the healer. That is irrational (not surprising with you). Second, and once again, it doesn't matter whatsoever if something impacts you, because a claim is either true or false regardless of it's impact on someone. So impact is irrelevant to the subject. You either accept someones testimony as true (i.e. - that it actually happened) or you do not.

You are practicing more intellectual hypocrisy by trying to insert "impact" as a caveat to believing whether something is true, because the only way you could actually show that you truly believe whether (for example) I was healed by Para-Brahman would be to actually act on that belief in accordance with it. Just saying you believe something doesn't mean that you actually do. Talk is cheap.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 18, 2014, 02:02:31 AM
How does it matter, whatsoever, if a person prays (or poops) before a specific rare event occurs?

I matters in the sense that the result might be accredited to prayer (or poop) depending on the person.

So then demonstrating what causes specific events in the world is merely a matter of opinion for you? One persons opinion is just as good as any other (say in a murder case, a rape case, or what drugs are bad for our health)?


Quote
Again, you do know that correlation does not equal causation, don't you?
Yes (again)

If you admit that correlation does not equal causation then stop using that fallacy in arguing that cancer going away was caused by a "God" (whatever that means). Ok?

Quote
And how exactly can you make the determination that an event cannot be "ascribable to human power or the laws of nature"??


It depends on each situation.
Me floating in the air is not ascribable to human power or the laws of nature.
Me floating in the air inside an indoor skydiving machine is ascribable to human power or the laws of nature.

This is an argument from incredulity fallacy. Have you floated in the air before? Even if you did, and you didn't have an explanation for it, this wouldn't in any way make your assertion that, "God did it" valid. It would still be a logically fallacious argument from ignorance/incredulity because you are attempting to explain one thing that you cannot explain by another thing that you cannot explain (aka - a mystery by a another mystery). FAIL.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 18, 2014, 02:12:27 AM
So then demonstrating what causes specific events in the world is merely a matter of opinion for you?
Events that cannot be ascribable to human power or the laws of nature, yes.
Quote
One persons opinion is just as good as any other (say in a murder case, a rape case, or what drugs are bad for our health)?
No.
Quote
If you admit that correlation does not equal causation then stop using that fallacy in arguing that cancer going away was caused by a "God" (whatever that means). Ok?
Ok. (she claimed it anyway and I believed her)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 18, 2014, 02:20:15 AM
So then demonstrating what causes specific events in the world is merely a matter of opinion for you?
Events that cannot be ascribable to human power or the laws of nature, yes.


This is an argument from ignorance fallacy. You haven't even begun to demonstrate how you can determine that a specific even cannot be ascribed to human power or the laws of nature. Like your other magic claims, it's just another one of your assumptions. The ancients used to attempt this same line of reasoning with lightening. "Zeus did it!" It failed for them and it fails for you for the same reason. It is irrational. So stop using it. Just because you personally do not have an explanation for something does not mean that there is not, or cannot, be one within the natural world. Admit when you are ignorant of the cause of an event.


Quote
One persons opinion is just as good as any other (say in a murder case, a rape case, or what drugs are bad for our health)?
No.
Quote
If you admit that correlation does not equal causation then stop using that fallacy in arguing that cancer going away was caused by a "God" (whatever that means). Ok?
Ok. (she claimed it anyway and I believed her)

I don't care what "she claimed" or that you believed her. Those are completely aside from the point here. The point is, you simply have no rational grounds from drawing causation from a mere correlation. You do not know that "God" (whatever that means) caused a cancer to go into remission. And you are using an irrational argument (as I noted before, Post Hoc Ergo Proper Hoc) to prop up your belief in it. So the very foundation of your belief is irrational.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 18, 2014, 02:24:46 AM
Luk winning lottery ascribable or not??
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 18, 2014, 02:29:37 AM
Luk winning lottery ascribable or not??
What do you mean? Could you stop using the forum like a chat room?
Did you mean : If I win the lottery would that be a miracle? Noooo but I'd love to!
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 18, 2014, 02:32:31 AM
I mean under your definition is winning the lottery a natural event.

how am i using this as a chat room?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 18, 2014, 02:39:12 AM
I mean under your definition is winning the lottery a natural event.
how am i using this as a chat room?
Small messages. Not developing the point you wish to make. One line jokes.
I don't know if winning the lottery is a natural event. Or if its ascribable to human power. Why do you ask?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 18, 2014, 02:42:58 AM
I mean under your definition is winning the lottery a natural event.
how am i using this as a chat room?
Small messages. Not developing the point you wish to make. One line jokes.
I don't know if winning the lottery is a natural event. Or if its ascribable to human power. Why do you ask?

Because the bigger question is how you can differentiate what you call a "miracle" from a rare or unexplained event that is NOT a miracle.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 18, 2014, 02:45:55 AM
He gets the bigger point, he is throwing up dust until he can figure a way around it or he can change the subject.

so luk you concede you don't know?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 18, 2014, 02:49:12 AM
He gets the bigger point, he is throwing up dust until he can figure a way around it or he can change the subject.

The burden of proof is on you, to prove that Luk knows that he has lost the argument.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 18, 2014, 03:05:28 AM
 
I don't know if winning the lottery is a natural event. Or if its ascribable to human power. Why do you ask?
[/quote]


Seems you have little credibility to determine miracle from not miracle if you don't know the answer to ^
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 18, 2014, 11:58:59 AM
He gets the bigger point, he is throwing up dust until he can figure a way around it or he can change the subject.
so luk you concede you don't know?
Concede what?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 18, 2014, 12:04:32 PM
how you can differentiate what you call a "miracle" from a rare or unexplained event that is NOT a miracle.
The prayers makes the difference. If I pray God before the event it is different than if I don't. Plus you have what we call the "fruits" from the miracle. It is like a ripple effect of good that comes from the persons concerned by the miracle. But this is for another discussion.
Did you guys had more question on Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Or are the answers I gave you, enough?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 18, 2014, 12:51:17 PM
how you can differentiate what you call a "miracle" from a rare or unexplained event that is NOT a miracle.
The prayers makes the difference. If I pray God before the event it is different than if I don't. Plus you have what we call the "fruits" from the miracle. It is like a ripple effect of good that comes from the persons concerned by the miracle. But this is for another discussion.
Did you guys had more question on Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Or are the answers I gave you, enough?

Correlation/Causation Fallacy (Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc)

Remember this post?

#36
I gave you the exact same type of evidence you would gave me if I asked you about the sun and the earth. What more do you want?
This is actually 100% false, and more dishonesty. You are drawing a false analogy between claims to the supernatural and those which are not. Furthermore, you merely assume that the only way anyone can demonstrate that the earth revolves around the sun (or other such demonstrable scientific phenomena) is by quoting someone, which is false. So you are arguing irrationally on two accounts. We have pictures from space and space stations, video, extremely accurate mathematics with much explanatory power for making reliable and accurate predictions, independent peer reviewed journals, and independently tested and verified observations which conform to predictions and hypotheses. Please provide the actual evidence for your "miracles" that is anywhere near this.

I have been quite specific with you regarding the type of evidence you need to provide and instead of actually meeting the challenge (which you first said you could do) you are now veering off onto irrational tangents - trying to equate correlation to causation. You just tried to do it again with your post above (which earlier you said you would no longer do). So this is even more dishonesty by you. You have not even begun to demonstrate that "prayer makes the difference" or that prayer directly causes "healing". It's just another one of your bald assertions with no backing.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 18, 2014, 03:01:50 PM
Yes luk there are both the same questions you have not yet answered and new ones.


just to review, yoy can't tell if winning a lottery is due to natural laws or not.


Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Defiance on May 18, 2014, 07:53:56 PM
You just claimed that the event would be different if you didn't pray.

Evidence please. How can you proove that?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: epidemic on May 19, 2014, 08:37:34 AM
No army required, a tazer will do it and that gadget from ghost busters.  you are old school remember your scripture you can be defeated by an iron chariot. How you gonna go against a modern tank special ed god.

Zap! Awww your tazer is done gone before you could fire!!  (I'm all knowing and this confrontation will be happening December 4, 2029), and it's landed in your eye! ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ


You know If they keep putting this off my generation will miss it just like the 100 generations since christ supposedly walked the earth and said that within the lifetime of some people listening would see these things come to pass.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: epidemic on May 19, 2014, 08:55:53 AM
I have been quite specific with you regarding the type of evidence you need to provide and instead of actually meeting the challenge (which you first said you could do) you are now veering off onto irrational tangents - trying to equate correlation to causation. You just tried to do it again with your post above (which earlier you said you would no longer do). So this is even more dishonesty by you. You have not even begun to demonstrate that "prayer makes the difference" or that prayer directly causes "healing". It's just another one of your bald assertions with no backing. [/font]

Hey if there was enough correlation I would buy causation.  Do muslims get cured by prayer, hindu's, do atheists spontaniously go into remission?  What is common between Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Morman and Atheist remission stories???  Different or missing gods yet still remission occurs.  Do all or even a larger proportion of middle class Catholics, go into remission than middle class Mormans, Muslims, Hindus than atheists?

My father went in for unusual growth in his colon, the doctor said it was inconclusive (My mom prayed) ,  and doctor tested again (My mom prayed, god spoke to her and said it would not be cancer and she shouted it to the roof tops) , no cancer found, the Doctor used his years of experience and demanded further testing,  My mom was getting sick of all the testing even going as far as to cite that god said it would be fine.  but finally after a battery of repeated biopsy tests the doctor found what he was looking for.  My mom was destroyed until someone smart spoke to her and told her what gods real message was,  that my father would survive.  thus far it is true that with prayer a chemo, radiation, skilled surgical team and oncologist and a year of recovery my dad is doing pretty good. 

It's a miracle.  Three or four miscommunicated messages from god, tests my mom did not want my dad to take because of the answered prayers, and finally a miracle cure, course of treatment  and operation that is quite common performed with good results.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 19, 2014, 09:21:58 AM
Yes luk there are both the same questions you have not yet answered and new ones.

just to review, yoy can't tell if winning a lottery is due to natural laws or not.
please give me the original 2 questions. I will cite you the answers to the said questions. I don't usually leave questions without answer. So 2 questions that I have NOT YET answered imply that I had the chance to and didn't.
Could you quote the 2 said questions please?
I can't tell if winning a lottery in general is due to natural laws or not. I might be able to tell for a specific case.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 19, 2014, 09:25:44 AM
You just claimed that the event would be different if you didn't pray.

Evidence please. How can you proove that?
quote please?
I believe I said that the difference will be between "I was lucky" and "it's a miracle."
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 19, 2014, 09:32:40 AM
how you can differentiate what you call a "miracle" from a rare or unexplained event that is NOT a miracle.
The prayers makes the difference. If I pray God before the event it is different than if I don't. Plus you have what we call the "fruits" from the miracle. It is like a ripple effect of good that comes from the persons concerned by the miracle. But this is for another discussion.
Did you guys had more question on Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Or are the answers I gave you, enough?

Correlation/Causation Fallacy (Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc)

Remember this post?

#36
I gave you the exact same type of evidence you would gave me if I asked you about the sun and the earth. What more do you want?
This is actually 100% false, and more dishonesty. You are drawing a false analogy between claims to the supernatural and those which are not. Furthermore, you merely assume that the only way anyone can demonstrate that the earth revolves around the sun (or other such demonstrable scientific phenomena) is by quoting someone, which is false. So you are arguing irrationally on two accounts. We have pictures from space and space stations, video, extremely accurate mathematics with much explanatory power for making reliable and accurate predictions, independent peer reviewed journals, and independently tested and verified observations which conform to predictions and hypotheses. Please provide the actual evidence for your "miracles" that is anywhere near this.

I have been quite specific with you regarding the type of evidence you need to provide and instead of actually meeting the challenge (which you first said you could do) you are now veering off onto irrational tangents - trying to equate correlation to causation. You just tried to do it again with your post above (which earlier you said you would no longer do). So this is even more dishonesty by you. You have not even begun to demonstrate that "prayer makes the difference" or that prayer directly causes "healing". It's just another one of your bald assertions with no backing.

It is Because of the definition of the word miracle. The correlation is made were there should be none (I still agree with you, there are still no DIRECT correlation between the prayer and the miracle). But it is made nevertheless, outside of your power. You should accept that and move on.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: epidemic on May 19, 2014, 09:39:35 AM
I don't usually leave questions without answer.

I know you are a popular commodity around here but you have left quite a few of my direct questions to you unanswered, several times demanding that I answer a question first and then when I comply, you have failed to answer.   I don't know if I could dig around and find them again.  But I have pretty much concluded you cherry pick my questions and if you don't like them you just skip them or redirect.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 19, 2014, 09:46:33 AM
I don't usually leave questions without answer.

I know you are a popular commodity around here but you have left quite a few of my direct questions to you unanswered, several times demanding that I answer a question first and then when I comply, you have failed to answer.   I don't know if I could dig around and find them again.  But I have pretty much concluded you cherry pick my questions and if you don't like them you just skip them or redirect.
Yes, quotes please.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: epidemic on May 19, 2014, 10:28:07 AM
Yes, quotes please.





Ok

concrete proof of luck.

Most of these people survived injury not because of skill but random dumb luck. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okAeCEODrFs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9NhLLwE7r4

For the sports ones do you think god made those rediculous 3 point shots.  no it was just convergence of events, an unrepeatable throw that 99 out of 100 times one would miss in practice and happens during a game.
Once you answer my question I will gladly answer yours.
Do you believe people when they tell you they were lucky? Do you believe in luck? (please back up your answer)

Absolutely there are people who are on lucky streaks.  Where random events seem to favor them.  Again this is just laws of averages and probability.  Nothing magical about it, luck does not seem to favor the pure of heart, or the bad, there is no rhyme or reason why come folks have lucky streaks.

Some murderers are lucky to avoid detection for years because of dumb luck.  The camera in the store was broken that day, a cop decided to wait 5 minutes for a cup of coffee, he nailed the right artery as he flailed the knife around.  Is that some higher power giving the murderer luck? 


PS just answer a question, don't demand someone else answer a question first.

do it like this,

"here is my answer, but could you please address this question"

You followed up with another question and I finally gave up.  Many instances but finding them would be a chore now.  I will dig around because there were a few that I really wanted answered.



As I read back I think what I am seeing is two things.  We have a conversation style problem where, you say something I reply sometimes with a question sometimes with a statement hoping for a response.  you seem to only answer direct questions.  Secondly you often do not answer with more than a yes/no to an essay question:)

Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 19, 2014, 11:06:39 AM
True. I answer questions. Not aggressions. I found that usually people try to "poke" you with affirmative phrases that are not related to the conversation. If I had to address every person who said "gos is this and that" I would never finished.
"Is that some higher power giving the murderer luck? "No.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: epidemic on May 19, 2014, 12:04:24 PM
True. I answer questions. Not aggressions. I found that usually people try to "poke" you with affirmative phrases that are not related to the conversation. If I had to address every person who said "gos is this and that" I would never finished.
"Is that some higher power giving the murderer luck? "No.

Why is the murders luck not from a higher power?  How can you tell? 

How do I identify a lucky random coincidence, like looking in my rear view mirror and seeing someone crash in the  intersection 1/10th of a second after I clear it from devine intervention delaying the traffic light runner 1/10'th of a second? 

What about the bad luck of the guy killed with his family, who got Tboned who is responsible for that?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on May 19, 2014, 12:24:37 PM
God can't stop microbes viruses or even a busload of nuns from driving off a cliff,never mind heal an amputee. We often hear that sin is why,then the sacrifice of Jesus to clean mankind of sin was meaningless.

 To be clean of sin would mean that no follower(of Jesus) should be affected by the "by-product of sin" some of which followers believe to be sickness due to pathogens and viruses. The argument that Jesus only saves after death is ridiculous,because Yahweh never mentions an afterlife to his Jewish followers.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Jesuis on May 19, 2014, 01:23:09 PM
The argument that Jesus only saves after death is ridiculous,because Yahweh never mentions an afterlife to his Jewish followers.
Who is Yahweh and did Jesus ever mention God's name to his followers as Yahweh?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 19, 2014, 02:01:46 PM
how you can differentiate what you call a "miracle" from a rare or unexplained event that is NOT a miracle.
The prayers makes the difference. If I pray God before the event it is different than if I don't. Plus you have what we call the "fruits" from the miracle. It is like a ripple effect of good that comes from the persons concerned by the miracle. But this is for another discussion.
Did you guys had more question on Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Or are the answers I gave you, enough?

Correlation/Causation Fallacy (Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc)

Remember this post?

#36
I gave you the exact same type of evidence you would gave me if I asked you about the sun and the earth. What more do you want?
This is actually 100% false, and more dishonesty. You are drawing a false analogy between claims to the supernatural and those which are not. Furthermore, you merely assume that the only way anyone can demonstrate that the earth revolves around the sun (or other such demonstrable scientific phenomena) is by quoting someone, which is false. So you are arguing irrationally on two accounts. We have pictures from space and space stations, video, extremely accurate mathematics with much explanatory power for making reliable and accurate predictions, independent peer reviewed journals, and independently tested and verified observations which conform to predictions and hypotheses. Please provide the actual evidence for your "miracles" that is anywhere near this.

I have been quite specific with you regarding the type of evidence you need to provide and instead of actually meeting the challenge (which you first said you could do) you are now veering off onto irrational tangents - trying to equate correlation to causation. You just tried to do it again with your post above (which earlier you said you would no longer do). So this is even more dishonesty by you. You have not even begun to demonstrate that "prayer makes the difference" or that prayer directly causes "healing". It's just another one of your bald assertions with no backing.

It is Because of the definition of the word miracle. The correlation is made were there should be none (I still agree with you, there are still no DIRECT correlation between the prayer and the miracle). But it is made nevertheless, outside of your power. You should accept that and move on.

Outside of my power? What the heck are you talking about? If you agree that there is no correlation and no causation between prayer and a persons cancer going into remission then you have no grounds for saying that a miracle occurred! You are just making an ASSUMPTION based upon your presuppositional bias. But making such assumptions are unreliable for separating fact from fiction. And still you haven't even attempted to differentiate between a miracle and a non-miracle. So my rebuttal stands. You have no rational grounds for claiming that any event is a miracle by a "God". 


So, are you ready to admit now that your claims about miracles are in error? 
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: nogodsforme on May 19, 2014, 03:42:29 PM
Suppose I do not like nuns and pray for their bus to go off a cliff. If their bus goes off a cliff and they all die, is that a miracle or just a sad accident? How can you tell? If I pray for a person I do not like to die in a fire and they do, is that a miracle? If I pray for gay people to get AIDS and they do, is that a miracle?

Does god do bad miracles, like kill a town full of people in a landslide because someone prayed for that tohappen? Or do miracles have to be good things?

In determining a miracle, does it matter who I pray to? Maybe we should all be praying to Satan for Putin to spontaneously combust.  :P
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 19, 2014, 04:47:19 PM
Depends if the bad things happen to atheists or Muslims .
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 19, 2014, 08:50:04 PM
Why is the murders luck not from a higher power?  How can you tell?
How do I identify a lucky random coincidence, like looking in my rear view mirror and seeing someone crash in the  intersection 1/10th of a second after I clear it from devine intervention delaying the traffic light runner 1/10'th of a second?
Prayer and testimony.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 19, 2014, 09:03:50 PM
Suppose I do not like nuns and pray for their bus to go off a cliff. If their bus goes off a cliff and they all die, is that a miracle or just a sad accident?
If it was an event not ascribable to human power or the laws of nature then it was a miracle.
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How can you tell?
Because of the definition of the word "miracle".
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If I pray for a person I do not like to die in a fire and they do, is that a miracle?
If it was an event not ascribable to human power or the laws of nature. Yes
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If I pray for gay people to get AIDS and they do, is that a miracle?
If it was an event not ascribable to human power or the laws of nature. Yes
Quote
Does god do bad miracles,like kill a town full of people in a landslide because someone prayed for that tohappen?
Our God (the Christian Catholic one) does not do bad miracles. Your god can if you want.
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Or do miracles have to be good things?
I'll give you again the definition of a miracle : an event not ascribable to human power or the laws of nature. You'll differentiate it from luck by assigning it to a god. (praying)
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In determining a miracle, does it matter who I pray to?
Of course.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Jehovah God on May 20, 2014, 03:00:46 AM
No army required, a tazer will do it and that gadget from ghost busters.  you are old school remember your scripture you can be defeated by an iron chariot. How you gonna go against a modern tank special ed god.

Zap! Awww your tazer is done gone before you could fire!!  (I'm all knowing and this confrontation will be happening December 4, 2029), and it's landed in your eye! ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Yeah well I've had to keep putting off the second coming because Satan took away Christ's makeup!  A savior has to look stunning you know???


You know If they keep putting this off my generation will miss it just like the 100 generations since christ supposedly walked the earth and said that within the lifetime of some people listening would see these things come to pass.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 20, 2014, 03:57:38 AM
Luk, all the talk of miracles makes me wonder. Do miracles, according to your definition, still happen? If so could you give and example of one, please?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 20, 2014, 04:03:54 AM
Wheelshe has mentioned his friend's remission ad naseum.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 20, 2014, 04:22:41 AM
Wheels he has mentioned his friend's remission ad naseum.

Maybe, but that doesn't surely count as a miracle as this is something just happens - like MS sometimes goes into remission. Even if it was a miracle, it would hardly show god off in a good light would it? A god that helps the odd person with a nasty disease but lets nearly everyone with the same condition suffer. I'd say that was taunting the sick.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 20, 2014, 04:28:26 AM
You might say that and i would agree for sure but a theist would say god moves in mysterious ways..... poor dumb bassids.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 20, 2014, 04:48:34 AM
I rather think the whole 'miracle' thing is an attempt by those, who are not as sure as they thought of their belief, to bolster their faith. Yet that a god would pick one odd person out of a large number to heal seems to make their god seem oddly selective. After all, if a god can make one person's cancer go into remission how much more effort would it be to do it for all cancer sufferers? It would allow a god to make a point that he is about and active in the world.

However, the fact is that there is no evidence that any god affects anything in the universe. An aside from the game The Elder Scrolls V - Skyrim is an illustrate case here. In the imaginative medieval world where there are 8 divines (or 9 for the Nords) each divine is active in the world. Praying at a shrine cures all diseases for example and wearing the amulet of a divine confers, for example, extra health. Now, compare that imaginary state with the real world. Does praying at the altar of a church do anything? Can it cure diseases? Does wearing a cross confer extra health of any other benefit? We could look at other religions and see that the same thing applies to them too. So we can see that, despite active belief and worship, gods don't actually deliver to anyone - except the rare example we are told.

I conclude that the religious practices are designed to keep people in the religion, to allow some control over the population[1] and the promise of another life keeps them in too. Now if any theist can show me to be wrong I would love to hear it but so far as I can see, belief and worship deliver nothing to the worshipper that might be obtained as a rock concert, a good party or even a few drinks in the pub with friends.
 1. Look at Islamic states like Saudi Arabia
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 20, 2014, 05:02:05 AM
I think religion can hold insecure and feeble minded people together, which i guess is good don't you think.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 20, 2014, 05:12:04 AM
Yes, probably. Mind you, I don't think it is exclusive in its ability to hold these people together - look at football supporters in Europe. I heard a Spanish fan of the club that won the final in Spain last weekend saying that his club winning was the 'best day of his life'. 
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 20, 2014, 05:17:05 AM
Its the fellowship i think which as you pointed out can be achieved in numerous ways. everyone should feel they belong to something.


and then there are the lone wolves.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: natlegend on May 20, 2014, 06:01:31 AM
Does god do bad miracles,like kill a town full of people in a landslide because someone prayed for that tohappen?
Our God (the Christian Catholic one) does not do bad miracles. Your god can if you want.

Sooooo... I have my own god? And he/she/it can do 'bad' miracles? What are 'bad' miracles?

In determining a miracle, does it matter who I pray to?
Of course.

Does this mean if I pray to my cat, then then I win the lottery, it will only be by luck, and not a miracle? What if I pray to my god before I win the lottery? Is it a miracle then? Or is it only a miracle if I pray to your god?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 20, 2014, 06:23:51 AM
I think the Vatican tends to only recognise medical miracles these days and, of course, the recipient has to have prayed to someone who is suitable too. Pope Paul II was prayed to and a 'medical miracle' achieved - though this involved the disappearance of pain 3 days  after back surgery which would be expected!

The problem is that some fame and kudos comes with making a claim that one was healed miraculously and there must be pressure to say prayer went to the right place. We can't know what was in the mind of the recipient who might have prayed to their dead cat but say it was a dead pope and fame ensues!
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 20, 2014, 06:29:26 AM
The true miracle is the boom to the local economy where the miracle occurred. believers will spend.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 20, 2014, 10:34:23 AM
Jesus does not 'let' the other cancer patients suffer. I believe that miracle are extrodinary feats. If it happen to everyone who's sick, it wouldn't be extraordinary anymore, would it?
I gave some links to miracles when I first answered questions about the existence of miracle. Since I'm on the phone right now it's a little bit complicated for me to get the quote. I'll try later.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 20, 2014, 11:48:56 AM
Jesus does not 'let' the other cancer patients suffer. I believe that miracle are extraordinary feats. If it happen to everyone who's sick, it wouldn't be extraordinary any more, would it?
I gave some links to miracles when I first answered questions about the existence of miracle. Since I'm on the phone right now it's a little bit complicated for me to get the quote. I'll try later.

You are quite right, Luk, and I am wrong. Jesus doesn't let cancer patients suffer - but he doesn't lift a finger to help them either. I wonder how many times people have prayed for cancer to be healed all over the world? Its a totally selfless prayer when said by someone who has not got the disease, Jesus promised that what people asked his father in faith they would have, so why do you suppose that there is cancer about today?

Now, for any other so-called miracles you find, let us all know how you managed to rule out anything natural.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 20, 2014, 11:52:36 AM
Jesus does not 'let' the other cancer patients suffer.
And I don't 'let' a woman get raped.  I just stand there with the ability to stop the transgressor, ability to call authority figures, and ability to at least shout 'hey stop that', but I just don't.  But I don't let the woman get raped.  I merely stand by and do nothing, possibly gloating over just how awesome I, what with my abilities to stop a rape, while the horrible act occurs.

I may not 'let' the woman get raped, but I'm a pretty massive jerkbag for doing nothing about it.  This would be even worse if I had the ability to stop the act with certainty.

Quote
I believe that miracle are extrodinary feats. If it happen to everyone who's sick, it wouldn't be extraordinary anymore, would it?
Sorry, but the awesome part of people being healed is people being healed, not how rare the feat is.  Do you think that's why we don't try to prevent all rapes?  Because if we did, it would somehow 'cheapen' the act of stopping rape?  Is that why we don't try to cure cancer?  Because if everyone's cancer were cured, it would somehow 'cheapen' the act of curing cancer?

Honestly...when the day comes that curing any and all illness is seen as merely mundane, that would be a happy occasion.  I honestly look forward to the day I get to say "oh, your 6-year old kid's terminal cancer was cured?  Big deal - I won a free taco!"  That would be awesome.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Emily on May 20, 2014, 11:58:00 AM
Hiya, Luk.

Jesus does not 'let' the other cancer patients suffer. I believe that miracle are extrodinary feats. If it happen to everyone who's sick, it wouldn't be extraordinary anymore, would it?

Why does God want his miracles to be extraordinary? What does God seek to gain by granting such an extraordinary miracle to one cancer patient while allowing another one to not be granted that miracle?

 All cancer patients being healed miraculously would still be a miracle and extraordinary.

What is God seeking to gain by picking and choosing who gets healed and who doesn't?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 20, 2014, 12:00:17 PM
Sooooo... I have my own god? And he/she/it can do 'bad' miracles? What are 'bad' miracles?
Yes if you want. Yes. And depends on the situation.
For example you might pray your god for the child next door to fall down the stairs and die and he did and it was not ascribable to human power or the laws of nature then it would be a bad miracle.
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Does this mean if I pray to my cat, then then I win the lottery, it will only be by luck, and not a miracle? What if I pray to my god before I win the lottery? Is it a miracle then? Or is it only a miracle if I pray to your god?
If winning the lottery is not ascribable to human power or the laws of nature and you pray your cat because your cat is your god then it will be a miracle.
If you have more than one god it will still be a miracle associated to the selected god you prayed. If you prayed "all the gods" then you could deliberately choose which one to assign the miracle to. Prayer can only be done to an object of worship.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 20, 2014, 12:22:43 PM
Sorry, but the awesome part of people being healed is people being healed, not how rare the feat is.  Do you think that's why we don't try to prevent all rapes?
We don't? I think we do. We are not able yet to prevent it 100% and that's why it's rare.
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Because if we did, it would somehow 'cheapen' the act of stopping rape?
We do our best to stop it. And our effort paid off. Before we tried to stop it, it wasn't a big deal (in prehistoric time for example or during time of war or with the slaves)
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Is that why we don't try to cure cancer?
What are you talking about? We try to cure cancer!
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Because if everyone's cancer were cured, it would somehow 'cheapen' the act of curing cancer?
Of course it would, if everyone's cancer were cured, there wouldn't be any cancer anymore. It's like malaria.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Emily on May 20, 2014, 12:31:07 PM
Sorry, but the awesome part of people being healed is people being healed, not how rare the feat is.  Do you think that's why we don't try to prevent all rapes?
We don't? I think we do. We are not able yet to prevent it 100% and that's why it's rare.

Rape is very far from rare. The statistics for rape and sexual assault on women is 1 in 3. For men it's 1 in 10 (or something along those numbers) Next time you go shopping for groceries there is a good chance that for every three woman you pass, one was either raped or sexually assaulted. What is rare about rape is how it gets reported to the authorities.

Rape and/or sexual assault is very far from being rare.

Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: epidemic on May 20, 2014, 12:35:33 PM
Jesus does not 'let' the other cancer patients suffer. I believe that miracle are extrodinary feats. If it happen to everyone who's sick, it wouldn't be extraordinary anymore, would it?
I gave some links to miracles when I first answered questions about the existence of miracle. Since I'm on the phone right now it's a little bit complicated for me to get the quote. I'll try later.

Luk,  But couldn't he reserve the healings for the faithful and let all those atheists die of cancer horribly.  First off it would answer prayers and secondly help convince the atheists of magic.  It would be just as extraordinary, in fact more extraordinary because you would know it was happening and not just get some warm fuzzy feeling that maybe god stepped in.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 20, 2014, 12:50:50 PM
Hiya, Luk.
Why does God want his miracles to be extraordinary? What does God seek to gain by granting such an extraordinary miracle to one cancer patient while allowing another one to not be granted that miracle?
All cancer patients being healed miraculously would still be a miracle and extraordinary.

God is not the one wanting miracles to be extraordinary. It is the definition of miracle that demands it.
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What is God seeking to gain by picking and choosing who gets healed and who doesn't?
He doesn't get to pick. He helps (not necessarily by curing) those who are ready to be helped.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 20, 2014, 12:53:25 PM
Rape is very far from rare. The statistics for rape and sexual assault on women is 1 in 3. For men it's 1 in 10 (or something along those numbers) Next time you go shopping for groceries there is a good chance that for every three woman you pass, one was either raped or sexually assaulted. What is rare about rape is how it gets reported to the authorities.
Rape and/or sexual assault is very far from being rare.
I agree, not rare enough. Where did you get those stats? Are they world stats? city stats?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: One Above All on May 20, 2014, 01:01:01 PM
Rape is very far from rare. The statistics for rape and sexual assault on women is 1 in 3. For men it's 1 in 10 (or something along those numbers) Next time you go shopping for groceries there is a good chance that for every three woman you pass, one was either raped or sexually assaulted. What is rare about rape is how it gets reported to the authorities.

Rape and/or sexual assault is very far from being rare.

I'm going to need to see links for those statistics. I'd also like to know how they figured out that rape rarely gets reported to the authorities. Are people afraid to speak to police officers but not random strangers performing a study?

I want to note that I don't doubt rape is far from rare. I just hear a lot about these statistics (though usually not male ones, as some people still have the idiotic notion that men can't be raped) and haven't once seen them accompanied by links.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Emily on May 20, 2014, 01:05:32 PM
And to me, this part

He doesn't get to pick. He helps (not necessarily by curing) those who are ready to be helped.

is what makes me wonder a lot about God's existence. Are those people who are healed of cancer healed because of a prayer, or is it because of medicine? If it's because of modern medicine than it's not a miracle (unless someone can argue that medicine is an answer to prayers, which, IMO, is scrapping the bottom of the barrel).

It makes god even more inconstant with what he can and with what he wont do. Millions of people believe pray for something, and they get what they prayed for, and they think it's an answer to their prayers. Others pray and don't get it. To me it sets off a lot of red flags about the "answered prayers", and whether or not that person would get what they prayed for had they not prayed in the first place.

But if god is not the one wanting miracles to be extraordinary (as you claim) they he could just simply do away with all disease. He is God after all. He created a universe. If God is real then nothing he does in this universe would be extraordinary, since God is supposedly a part of it and interacts with it (the universe).

So where does that leave God. Absent when he's needed the most? (unless, of course someone needs a new job to pay off their strip club tab, or to gain and achieve sobriety like those in AA[1]) Does he truly need to do all those wonderful acts that he gets credit for doing when there are more important issues going on in the world?

Rape is very far from rare. The statistics for rape and sexual assault on women is 1 in 3. For men it's 1 in 10 (or something along those numbers) Next time you go shopping for groceries there is a good chance that for every three woman you pass, one was either raped or sexually assaulted. What is rare about rape is how it gets reported to the authorities.
Rape and/or sexual assault is very far from being rare.
I agree, not rare enough. Where did you get those stats? Are they world stats? city stats?
 1. Nothing wrong with AA. I've been to a few AA meetings

I got the stats from RAINN (http://www.rainn.org). Right now the site doesn't seem to be responding though, so I can't post the links. I'll try back again later. RAINN's wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape,_Abuse_%26_Incest_National_Network

EDIT:

After a quick search here's what I found: http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/SV-DataSheet-a.pdf

According to those stats my numbers were off. Not so off for women, but way off for men.

Oh yeah, and this seems a national survey in America. Other counties it might not be these numbers.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 20, 2014, 01:27:27 PM
Since Reply #42 I gave examples of Miracles and links

Please provide the actual reference documentation to a confirmed miracle.
I had a girlfriend. Her sister was sick (cancer, terminal phase) and the doctor told her there wasn't anything more they could do. She had to wait. One day, while I was at her parents house, she came and told us the story on how God cured her.
I guess you would want me to give you the papers from the doctors, but I can't (patient privilege and stuff). I don't have any relation to this family anymore anyway.
If you want links.
You can read on This miracle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bernadette_of_Lourdes#Exhumations)
Or Those one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lourdes_Medical_Bureau#Notable_cases)

On Reply #50 I picked one in particular that had been proved with all the elements imaginable to prove that it was not ascribable to human power or the laws of nature
Let me pick one. What about a "Tubercular peritonitis with complications for seven years, extreme emaciation and oscillating fever. Comatose when brought to Lourdes" person? She was cured. After praying God, not a magic pink unicorns, pixies or lucky leprechauns. God.
Now, I gave you the link to the report of the act. What else would you need?

Edit: I just read about the doctor who examined her : "Any doctors practicing in or visiting Lourdes may apply to become members of the Lourdes Medical Bureau. Additionally, nurses, physiotherapists, pharmacists and members of other allied health professions may apply to become members. Members are given (and invited to wear) a small but distinctive badge displaying a red cross on a white background surmounted by the word Credo ("I believe"). However, members of any religious affiliation or none are welcomed."
The Medical Bureau investigates the claim, by examining the patient, the casenotes, and any test results (which can include biopsies, X-rays, CT scans, blood test results, and so on). A full investigation requires that one of its members investigates every detail of the case in question, and immerses him/herself in the literature around that condition to ensure that up-to-date academic knowledge is applied to the decision. This investigator may also consult with other colleagues about the case.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Don_Quixote on May 20, 2014, 01:47:40 PM
Strange that God only cures patients that are in hospitals already receiving treatment and only of those diseases that acn naturally be healed.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 20, 2014, 03:25:29 PM
Are those people who are healed of cancer healed because of a prayer, or is it because of medicine?
They are not called miracle when the healing is cased by medecine. Let me remind you the definition of miracle : Event that is not ascribable to human power or the laws of nature and is a result of prayer.

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To me it sets off a lot of red flags about the "answered prayers", and whether or not that person would get what they prayed for had they not prayed in the first place.
I like the kind of following prayer "please god help me to..." you know that by yourself you wouldn't be able to do it. Hadn't you prayed you wouldn't have made it.

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But if god is not the one wanting miracles to be extraordinary (as you claim) they he could just simply do away with all disease. He is God after all. He created a universe. If God is real then nothing he does in this universe would be extraordinary, since God is supposedly a part of it and interacts with it (the universe).

Indeed he could. And he doesn't. Why? Because of freedom. But that's another discussion. God does not not heal amputees for the same reason.

Quote
So where does that leave God. Absent when he's needed the most? (unless, of course someone needs a new job to pay off their strip club tab, or to gain and achieve sobriety like those in AA[1]) Does he truly need to do all those wonderful acts that he gets credit for doing when there are more important issues going on in the world?
 1. Nothing wrong with AA. I've been to a few AA meetings

God doesn't need anything since he is perfect. We are the needy ones.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 20, 2014, 03:28:45 PM
Strange that God only cures patients that are in hospitals already receiving treatment and only of those diseases that acn naturally be healed.
Did you even take time to read the links I gave you!? I guess not or you wouldn't say such a useless thing.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 20, 2014, 03:37:42 PM
Sorry, but the awesome part of people being healed is people being healed, not how rare the feat is.  Do you think that's why we don't try to prevent all rapes?
We don't? I think we do. We are not able yet to prevent it 100% and that's why it's rare.
So what you're saying is, that if it were within our power to prevent 100% of rapes, it would be a good thing for us to do.  What if we didn't?  If it were in our power to prevent 100% of rapes, but we opted not to.  Would you see that as any kind of failure of humanity?

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Quote
Is that why we don't try to cure cancer?
What are you talking about? We try to cure cancer!
I take it our attempts at curing cancer with 100% efficacy is a good thing.  That is, it is something we should try to do.  What if we didn't?  If it were in our power to prevent 100% of instances of cancer, but we opted not to.  Would you see that as any kind of failure of humanity?

Quote

Quote
Because if everyone's cancer were cured, it would somehow 'cheapen' the act of curing cancer?
Of course it would, if everyone's cancer were cured, there wouldn't be any cancer anymore. It's like malaria.
As far as I understand it, the only reason you've given for why god does not do things like heal amputees or cure cancers or stop rapes is because, if he did it often enough, it would cease being 'miraculous' or 'extraordinary'.  And I'm wondering why that should be taken as an acceptable reason for him to not step in and cure every cancer or stop every rape.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 20, 2014, 04:11:01 PM
Well, Luk, I took a look at Bernadette Soubirous and, sure enough, it looks quite miraculous. I'm sure the church was convinced anyway, though it was in their interest to be. Yet the article doesn't give all the details - such as the face and hands are wax, does it? It appears the attending doctor though she was partially mummified on her third 'digging up'. It's a shame no one took careful note of where the body was, what had been added to it when it was originally buried and the temperatures etc. though that might not have helped.

Still, on the face of it, what there is is an explained preservation and saying that 'god did it' honestly doesn't tell us anything more. Indeed it begs questions like, why this body and not any others. After all, it's not like Bernadette wasn't really needing it any more after she died. So, yes, I do think this is an odd case for the churcgh to be excited about unless it was a way to boost trade at Lourdes of course....


http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/not-quite-incorruptible-st-bernadette-lourdes
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 20, 2014, 05:18:41 PM
So what you're saying is, that if it were within our power to prevent 100% of rapes, it would be a good thing for us to do.  What if we didn't?  If it were in our power to prevent 100% of rapes, but we opted not to.  Would you see that as any kind of failure of humanity?
Yes. I think I know where you are going for with that so I'll anticipate. If in order to prevent 100% of rape we would have to put some explosive in the head of every human being (children included) that would blow every time we think about raping someone. Then maybe we shouldn't.

Quote
As far as I understand it, the only reason you've given for why god does not do things like heal amputees or cure cancers or stop rapes is because, if he did it often enough, it would cease being 'miraculous' or 'extraordinary'.  And I'm wondering why that should be taken as an acceptable reason for him to not step in and cure every cancer or stop every rape.

No, you used the answer to the question "why isn't there more miracle" and assigned it to God.
That's not the reason I gave you. Let me refresh your memory :
Indeed he could. And he doesn't. Why? Because of freedom. But that's another discussion. God does not not heal amputees for the same reason.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Jesuis on May 20, 2014, 05:53:09 PM
Each person reaps what they sow. Amputees are reaping what they have sowed.

The Desire in our minds is programmed for justice  as that brings us back to reap what we have sowed.

There is only suffering if we do not understand the law of the theists. Forgive your enemies, or reap what you sow.

Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 20, 2014, 05:58:47 PM
Well, Luk, I took a look at Bernadette Soubirous and, sure enough, it looks quite miraculous. I'm sure the church was convinced anyway, though it was in their interest to be. Yet the article doesn't give all the details - such as the face and hands are wax, does it? It appears the attending doctor though she was partially mummified on her third 'digging up'. It's a shame no one took careful note of where the body was, what had been added to it when it was originally buried and the temperatures etc. though that might not have helped.

Still, on the face of it, what there is is an explained preservation and saying that 'god did it' honestly doesn't tell us anything more. Indeed it begs questions like, why this body and not any others. After all, it's not like Bernadette wasn't really needing it any more after she died. So, yes, I do think this is an odd case for the churcgh to be excited about unless it was a way to boost trade at Lourdes of course....
http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/not-quite-incorruptible-st-bernadette-lourdes

Well look at this one (http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/physician-tells-of-eucharistic-miracle-of-lanciano): after reading this definition. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation#In_Roman_Catholic_theology)
Also you can read about [wiki]Therese Neumann[/wiki] who was a "living miracle"
If you want to debunk the Bernadette Soubirous case I can give you some links but that is not the purpose. The state she is in is miraculous even if some websites don't say the whole truth.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Defiance on May 20, 2014, 06:23:23 PM
God doesn't heal amputees because of freedom?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 20, 2014, 06:47:09 PM
God doesn't heal amputees because of freedom?
Let me refresh your memory :
I believe he can heal amputees but he wants to follow his laws. Nothing is lost, nothing is created. If a miracle where to happen it would be him reattaching the limb to the amputee, not creating a new one out of thin air.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on May 20, 2014, 08:40:20 PM
Jesus does not 'let' the other cancer patients suffer. I believe that miracle are extrodinary feats. If it happen to everyone who's sick, it wouldn't be extraordinary anymore, would it?
I gave some links to miracles when I first answered questions about the existence of miracle. Since I'm on the phone right now it's a little bit complicated for me to get the quote. I'll try later.
So why do the ones who are healed,you attribute to being miracles......there are 10,000 patients with the same affliction who suffer and die for the one you attribute a miracle....no miracle here just death
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: nogodsforme on May 20, 2014, 09:47:24 PM
In the past 100 years, we have almost completely cured smallpox and polio. We can treat the plague and AIDS, diseases that were fatal before science intervened.

In places where there is medical care, lots of people get cured. In places where there is no medical care, lots of people die. It does not matter who the people pray to. There are a lot more healing "miracles" where there are doctors, medicine and hospitals. Even atheists consistently get better with medicine. No prayer at all. Funny how that works.

You can have your one in a million "prayer to a dead cat miracles". I'll take medical science, thank you. And so will almost everyone else on the planet, even the people who claim to believe in miracles and god. They still go to the doctor. So much for faith.

Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: One Above All on May 21, 2014, 12:14:28 AM
In the past 100 years, we have almost completely cured smallpox and polio.

Not to be nitpicky, but I heard smallpox was eradicated almost (or over; I can't remember which) 30 years ago. It made me quite happy. Were there new cases I'm not aware of?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 12:22:08 AM
So why do the ones who are healed,you attribute to being miracles......there are 10,000 patients with the same affliction who suffer and die for the one you attribute a miracle....no miracle here just death
I am not the one attributing miracles.
Are you saying that being lucky is unfair to all the others who are not lucky? Why do you have access to a computer? Isn't that unfair fore all of those who do not have one?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: natlegend on May 21, 2014, 02:28:33 AM
Quote
We do our best to stop [rape]. And our effort paid off. Before we tried to stop it, [rape] wasn't a big deal (in prehistoric time for example or during time of war or with the slaves)

Are you for real?? Rape wasn't a big deal during times of war and slavery?? So the women and children who suffered this appalling crime were okay with it???

At what point did rape become NOT okay?

Damn dude, you are one sick puppy. 
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: One Above All on May 21, 2014, 02:31:14 AM
Each person reaps what they sow. Amputees are reaping what they have sowed.

The Desire in our minds is programmed for justice  as that brings us back to reap what we have sowed.

There is only suffering if we do not understand the law of the theists. Forgive your enemies, or reap what you sow.

Yeah... All those men, women, and children who got raped, murdered, tortured, died of horrible diseases like Harlequin-type ichthyosis[1], AIDS, cancer, and so on, deserved it!
Tell me, Jesuis, have you been tested for psychopathy yet?
 1. Do not Google this. The images are not pretty.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: natlegend on May 21, 2014, 02:35:20 AM
Amputees are reaping what they have sowed.

You're an idiot.

(http://www.un.org/Depts/oip/images/landmine6.jpg)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 21, 2014, 04:20:58 AM
So Why do you have access to a computer? Isn't that unfair fore all of those who do not have one?

with luk miracle logic bill gates is just as likely to get a free laptop miracled to him as some third world illiterate crippled villager. with no access to electricity or internet.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 21, 2014, 04:40:50 AM
Amputees are reaping what they have sowed.

So I suppose the paralysed are also reaping what they have sown, right? Well, I have had a 30 year plus sentence so far so what I done to justify that?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 21, 2014, 04:43:22 AM
Wheels i feel so bad that someone could make such a stupid statement . you are an inspirations to me. screw that POS. for saying that.


Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 21, 2014, 04:49:01 AM
Luk, for all your links and things that fact remains that the answer in all cases is 'we can't explain it therefore god.' It's far from satisfactory and is driven by the desire of the church to keep congregations by showing that there is some real evidence that there is a god even though, in reality this is highly unlikely.

In the middle ages. a cathedral in England used to display the blood of Christ in a glass tube yet it was eventually found it was chicken blood and renewed every day. Frankly, I have grave doubts about any analysis and investigation made by people appointed by the Vatican.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: One Above All on May 21, 2014, 04:51:10 AM
Amputees are reaping what they have sowed.

So I suppose the paralysed are also reaping what they have sown, right? Well, I have had a 30 year plus sentence so far so what I done to justify that?

I'd explain what I think is Jesuis's rationale, but I don't want you to think I'm making fun of you, so I won't. However, note that, if you ask him to justify his position, and he does, you might not like what comes out of his skull-wrapped vacuum head.
Anyway, nobody deserves to be paralyzed, IMO. Not even the most evil person you can conceive. When people like Jesuis say stupid things like what Jesuis said, ignore them. In fact, pity them, and not only because it will piss them off. Psychopaths can't know the joys of empathy because they can't feel it. They're damaged.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 21, 2014, 04:57:24 AM
Damaged or born that way, would make a huge difference from a theoligical perspective .
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: One Above All on May 21, 2014, 05:00:47 AM
Damaged or born that way, would make a huge difference from a theoligical perspective .

Most are born that way, but all are damaged. Lack of empathy is a physical defect in the brain.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 21, 2014, 05:06:33 AM
You do realise they are most likely to progress thru the ranks and head large orgs like the system was specifically built for them.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: One Above All on May 21, 2014, 05:11:58 AM
You do realise they are most likely to progress thru the ranks and head large orgs like the system was specifically built for them.

I understand everything up to "was". Then the sentence makes no sense.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 21, 2014, 05:17:39 AM
Replace was with is, i am referring specifically to large organisations with a structured career path.

haven't got a link but this is fact in most modern large orgs.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: One Above All on May 21, 2014, 05:23:46 AM
Then you're missing a comma in there, because the sentence still makes no sense.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 21, 2014, 05:31:14 AM
Feel free to rewrite it to make it make sense. you an english teacher?

what i am saying most large modern orgs are so structured that inadvertently the psychopathic behaviour is rewarded by career progression.... or is it sociopath?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 21, 2014, 05:32:37 AM
Maybe if we say the psychopaths are more likely to get to the top of large organisations as they are puahy and are quite unaffected by the shame of pushing other aside to get to their goal.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Mrjason on May 21, 2014, 05:33:06 AM
In the past 100 years, we have almost completely cured smallpox and polio.

Not to be nitpicky, but I heard smallpox was eradicated almost (or over; I can't remember which) 30 years ago. It made me quite happy. Were there new cases I'm not aware of?

FYI


Yes, the disease was officially declared eradicated in December 1979
http://www.who.int/csr/disease/smallpox/faq/en/index.html (http://www.who.int/csr/disease/smallpox/faq/en/index.html)

Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: One Above All on May 21, 2014, 05:36:15 AM
Feel free to rewrite it to make it make sense.

I see two major ways in which I can rewrite that sentence to make it make sense. They have different meanings.

you an english teacher?

No. Not even a native speaker. I just want to be able to understand others. And you should care if you're understood.

what i am saying most large modern orgs are so structured that inadvertently the psychopathic behaviour is rewarded by career progression.... or is it sociopath?

Probably mainly psychopathic behavior. Sociopaths ignore social norms and are often sadists. Psychopaths just don't give a fuck.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: epidemic on May 21, 2014, 07:42:08 AM
Ahh, yes the old reap what you sow thing, this is so well documented in history.

people like  Robert Chambliss, Herman Cash, Thomas Blanton and Bobby Cherry  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16th_Street_Baptist_Church_bombing) lived out their lives, had families, grandkids, christmas, even a chance to attain heaven I will bet in several cases.

But that little christian girl who is raped and has her legs hacked off by genocidal maniacs, She needs to reap what she sowed.  I will bet that she probably talked back to mom one day and for not honoring mom and dad she was raped and hacked up.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 21, 2014, 10:02:36 AM
So what you're saying is, that if it were within our power to prevent 100% of rapes, it would be a good thing for us to do.  What if we didn't?  If it were in our power to prevent 100% of rapes, but we opted not to.  Would you see that as any kind of failure of humanity?
Yes. I think I know where you are going for with that so I'll anticipate. If in order to prevent 100% of rape we would have to put some explosive in the head of every human being (children included) that would blow every time we think about raping someone. Then maybe we shouldn't.
And those instances of preventing rape where god would merely need to show up?  Or maybe just a quick injection of a sedative or something?

Quote
Quote
As far as I understand it, the only reason you've given for why god does not do things like heal amputees or cure cancers or stop rapes is because, if he did it often enough, it would cease being 'miraculous' or 'extraordinary'.  And I'm wondering why that should be taken as an acceptable reason for him to not step in and cure every cancer or stop every rape.

No, you used the answer to the question "why isn't there more miracle" and assigned it to God.
That's not the reason I gave you. Let me refresh your memory :
Indeed he could. And he doesn't. Why? Because of freedom. But that's another discussion. God does not not heal amputees for the same reason.
And that freedom answer is as unsatisfactory in this topic than in was in the other topic.

Because I truly fail to see how a 6-year old with terminal cancer is any more free than a 6-year old without terminal cancer.  I fail to see how a woman in the midst of being raped is any more free than a woman not being raped.  I fail to see how a person with 1 functional leg is any more free than a person with 2 functional legs.  Hell, I fail to see how a person who cannot fly is more free than a person who can fly.  The former people in all of these examples are less free - they have fewer options available to them - then the latter people.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: nogodsforme on May 21, 2014, 10:44:18 AM
In the past 100 years, we have almost completely cured smallpox and polio.

Not to be nitpicky, but I heard smallpox was eradicated almost (or over; I can't remember which) 30 years ago. It made me quite happy. Were there new cases I'm not aware of?

You are right, smallpox is done, because back in the day, the world health people vaccinated everybody on the planet!  But there are still some cases of polio in places like India. I should not have combined the two. 
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 11:44:57 AM
Quote
We do our best to stop [rape]. And our effort paid off. Before we tried to stop it, [rape] wasn't a big deal (in prehistoric time for example or during time of war or with the slaves)

Are you for real?? Rape wasn't a big deal during times of war and slavery?? So the women and children who suffered this appalling crime were okay with it???

At what point did rape become NOT okay?

Damn dude, you are one sick puppy. 
You are the sick one. Interpreting "not a big deal" by "ok to do it" is really sick interpretation of what I'm saying. Grow up a little. "not a big deal" is referring to the law. People did not get in jail for this crime.
You make me sick
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: One Above All on May 21, 2014, 11:52:26 AM
You are the sick one. Interpreting "not a big deal" by "ok to do it" is really sick interpretation of what I'm saying. Grow up a little. "not a big deal" is referring to the law. People did not get in jail for this crime.
You make me sick

Either you're being deceitful right now by claiming something that was in no way implied or inferred by your original wording, or you were being deceitful when you said what you did.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 12:04:21 PM
Luk, for all your links and things that fact remains that the answer in all cases is 'we can't explain it therefore god.' It's far from satisfactory and is driven by the desire of the church to keep congregations by showing that there is some real evidence that there is a god even though, in reality this is highly unlikely.

In the middle ages. a cathedral in England used to display the blood of Christ in a glass tube yet it was eventually found it was chicken blood and renewed every day. Frankly, I have grave doubts about any analysis and investigation made by people appointed by the Vatican.
Go and investigate by yourself then! You are allowed to do that. Did you know that the 5 coagulated blood weighted exactly the same? (even if they don't have the same form)
"we can't explain it therefore god" is more "we can't explain it and the person prayed god, and the fruits are great, therefore god" explanation. At one time you have to say, there are enough information at my disposal. I will make an educated guess (it's still a guess) based on the outcome this guess will have in my life.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: One Above All on May 21, 2014, 12:21:20 PM
Did you know that the 5 coagulated blood weighted exactly the same? (even if they don't have the same form)

Evidence? Regardless, you do realize that what you said is impossible, right? It would require the exact same number of atoms and the exact same amount of energy (right down to the last infinitesimal Joule). Or did you mean to say "weighed the same as far as they could tell"? Because if you did, that's what you should have said.

"we can't explain it therefore god" is more "we can't explain it and the person prayed god, and the fruits are great, therefore god" explanation.

So if someone prayed to Me, and what they prayed for happened, would you bow down and worship Me as a god? No? Why not? Because it has happened.

At one time you have to say, there are enough information at my disposal. I will make an educated guess (it's still a guess)

But before then, assume the most ridiculous scenarios are true. Perfectly logical.

based on the outcome this guess will have in my life.

This is just stupid. So I should assume 1 + 1 = 3 if it helps with calculations?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 21, 2014, 12:42:00 PM
Luk, for all your links and things that fact remains that the answer in all cases is 'we can't explain it therefore god.' It's far from satisfactory and is driven by the desire of the church to keep congregations by showing that there is some real evidence that there is a god even though, in reality this is highly unlikely.

In the middle ages. a cathedral in England used to display the blood of Christ in a glass tube yet it was eventually found it was chicken blood and renewed every day. Frankly, I have grave doubts about any analysis and investigation made by people appointed by the Vatican.
Go and investigate by yourself then! You are allowed to do that. Did you know that the 5 coagulated blood weighted exactly the same? (even if they don't have the same form)

Sadly, that is something that cannot be done. The tools available to do just that we have but, of course, way to late. Did anyone weight the matter on very a precise chemical balance? No, of course they didn't! What was wanted was a miracle and so one turned up, to order, to suit the Vatican. How very convenient. is the material still around for other researchers to examine  - properly protected from anything that might contaminate it?

Quote
"we can't explain it therefore god" is more "we can't explain it and the person prayed god, and the fruits are great, therefore god" explanation. At one time you have to say, there are enough information at my disposal. I will make an educated guess (it's still a guess) based on the outcome this guess will have in my life.

Ah, I see where you are getting. You are saying that the result of prayer was this 'event' and thus it is called a miracle as there is no obvious explanation. Right! That's what science calls a hypothesis. Now the thing is, the time is now to experiment, repeating the method over and over again to see if it continues to work. If it does, your hypothesis might be correct. If it fails then the hypothesis is certainly false. 

Now I see the attraction of giving some credit to your god  for a healing or other and that's what they did up to the present scientific age. now, though, we are building a more and more complex picture of the human body and its workings. We are starting to understand things about the brain that were impossible even 20 years ago. We have many of the metabolic pathways in intricate detail but we are no way close to a full understanding. Thus we are in no position, yet awhile, to say that the body could not heal it in a particular set of circumstances. We can say it is unlikely but that is not the same thing. It is extremely unlikely that I will win our National Lottery this week but someone will on a  1 in 14 million chance.

The thing is that we don't know how cancers go into remission but we know that they sometimes do. we also know that cancer patients are regularly prayed for. Now if anyone wants to say god healed my husband, for example, we would have to look at all the other people with the same stage and condition and see if they  recovered as a result of prayer. My guess would be probably not and that would invalidate the concept of divine intervention. (Unless we make the rule such that they are meaningless.)

So, Luk, try this scenario and tell me if, in the though experiment god could have been involved.

1. A ward of 20 people, the same age and gender and all having the exact same cancer and stage is observed.

2. All the patients are prayed for by their families, friends, pastors etc.

3. For each patient, there is a 5% chance of survival so, hopeless really.

4. After 2 weeks they are all dead with the exception of one who goes into remission and is picked up by his family. The family all go off to the church to thank god for the miracle healing he has received.

Was it clearly a miracle, Luk? Can we really say that from the above facts?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Graybeard on May 21, 2014, 01:04:43 PM
Luk, for all your links and things that fact remains that the answer in all cases is 'we can't explain it therefore god.' It's far from satisfactory and is driven by the desire of the church to keep congregations by showing that there is some real evidence that there is a god even though, in reality this is highly unlikely.

In the middle ages. a cathedral in England used to display the blood of Christ in a glass tube yet it was eventually found it was chicken blood and renewed every day. Frankly, I have grave doubts about any analysis and investigation made by people appointed by the Vatican.
Go and investigate by yourself then! You are allowed to do that.
You have already been given examples of deception - the Catholic Church is famous for this sort of thing. Unfortunately, the Catholic Church cannot be trusted to be honest: there is simply too much at stake - think of the effect on the church and the local economy if the Vatican were to announce that the "miracle" is not a miracle.

I recall the National Geographic article that reported that Bethlehem of Judea did not exist at the time of Christ: the archaeologist was asked if he had informed any of the religious authorities. He replied, "Of course, but nothing will happen, there's too much money invested."

This is how your church is run: this is how they deceive you - I'm sure that they do it for what they see as the best of motives...
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 21, 2014, 01:12:04 PM
Each person reaps what they sow. Amputees are reaping what they have sowed.

Oh, so you have some magical ability to innately judge each and every amputee to know that the reason behind their disfigurement must be due to their incurring your God's wrath over some perceived slight or flaw in their character?

I think I'm going to become a theist just for one day so I can pray to whatever god will listen to inflict you with incurable cancer. Then, as your body slowly wastes away, you will be left to reflect on how you obviously must have failed as a Christian to have deserved such a fate.

Go play in traffic. >:(
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 21, 2014, 01:13:41 PM
I make no allegations, but think of what happened when John Paul II died. What did the ordinary people want? Right, they wanted him made a saint. The Vatican decided they could do it but they needed miracles to succeed.  Now, given the miracles are rather sparse in the world and that there is no way that one can predict when another one will happen[1] what do the authorities do to satisfy their members?

Well, someone tell me because I'm not sure.
 1. Assuming miracles do happen, which I doubt.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: One Above All on May 21, 2014, 01:15:17 PM
Now, given the miracles are rather sparse in the world and that there is no way that one can predict when another one will happen[1] what do the authorities do to satisfy their members?

Well, someone tell me because I'm not sure.
 1. Assuming miracles do happen, which I doubt.

I sneezed. Miracle. Former pope will be made a saint.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 21, 2014, 01:16:37 PM
Now, given the miracles are rather sparse in the world and that there is no way that one can predict when another one will happen[1] what do the authorities do to satisfy their members?

Well, someone tell me because I'm not sure.
 1. Assuming miracles do happen, which I doubt.

I sneezed. Miracle. Former pope will be made a saint.

Ah, maybe that was it!
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 02:21:11 PM
So what you're saying is, that if it were within our power to prevent 100% of rapes, it would be a good thing for us to do.  What if we didn't?  If it were in our power to prevent 100% of rapes, but we opted not to.  Would you see that as any kind of failure of humanity?
Yes. I think I know where you are going for with that so I'll anticipate. If in order to prevent 100% of rape we would have to put some explosive in the head of every human being (children included) that would blow every time we think about raping someone. Then maybe we shouldn't.
And those instances of preventing rape where god would merely need to show up?  Or maybe just a quick injection of a sedative or something?

Quote
Quote
As far as I understand it, the only reason you've given for why god does not do things like heal amputees or cure cancers or stop rapes is because, if he did it often enough, it would cease being 'miraculous' or 'extraordinary'.  And I'm wondering why that should be taken as an acceptable reason for him to not step in and cure every cancer or stop every rape.

No, you used the answer to the question "why isn't there more miracle" and assigned it to God.
That's not the reason I gave you. Let me refresh your memory :
Indeed he could. And he doesn't. Why? Because of freedom. But that's another discussion. God does not not heal amputees for the same reason.
And that freedom answer is as unsatisfactory in this topic than in was in the other topic.

Because I truly fail to see how a 6-year old with terminal cancer is any more free than a 6-year old without terminal cancer.  I fail to see how a woman in the midst of being raped is any more free than a woman not being raped.  I fail to see how a person with 1 functional leg is any more free than a person with 2 functional legs.  Hell, I fail to see how a person who cannot fly is more free than a person who can fly.  The former people in all of these examples are less free - they have fewer options available to them - then the latter people.
Ok ok I will explain the Freedom on this Thread : http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26858.0.html
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 03:32:43 PM
Did you know that the 5 coagulated blood weighted exactly the same? (even if they don't have the same form)
Evidence? Regardless, you do realize that what you said is impossible, right?
Yes! That's why it's called a miracle. You should have understood that by now. Evidence are in the documents reporting the findings on this blood. You should be able to find it from the wiki page.

Quote
"we can't explain it therefore god" is more "we can't explain it and the person prayed god, and the fruits are great, therefore god" explanation.
So if someone prayed to Me, and what they prayed for happened, would you bow down and worship Me as a god? No? Why not? Because it has happened.
By definition of miracle, the person praying you is already bowed down and worships you. For me to worship you, you must give me more proof. (more followers for example) Why? because worshiping you will impact me, heavily.

Quote
This is just stupid. So I should assume 1 + 1 = 3 if it helps with calculations?
No.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: One Above All on May 21, 2014, 03:40:22 PM
Yes! That's why it's called a miracle. You should have understood that by now. Evidence are in the documents reporting the findings on this blood. You should be able to find it from the wiki page.

What's the name of the article? I found one that stated nothing resembling what you said.

By definition of miracle, the person praying you is already bowed down and worships you. For me to worship you, you must give me more proof. (more followers for example) Why? because worshiping you will impact me, heavily.

Calling all worshipers of the One Above All, the true and undisputed supreme ruler of the multiverse.
They'll be here any moment now.

No.

So we shouldn't make "educated guesses" based on how they will affect our lives?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 03:53:10 PM
Sadly, that is something that cannot be done. The tools available to do just that we have but, of course, way to late. Did anyone weight the matter on very a precise chemical balance? No, of course they didn't! What was wanted was a miracle and so one turned up, to order, to suit the Vatican. How very convenient. is the material still around for other researchers to examine  - properly protected from anything that might contaminate it?
This one of the many miracles. Others you can go verify by yourself with today's tools. Anyway, if we find out one day some scientific explanation for an old miracle it does not remove the fact that it was a miracle back then. I believe that miracles answer to the law of conservation (that's the whole point of this topic). We just call them miracle because we can't explain why with all our technology at the time and because it is the result of prayer and because there are no grave consequences from this miracle.

Quote
Ah, I see where you are getting. You are saying that the result of prayer was this 'event' and thus it is called a miracle as there is no obvious explanation. Right! That's what science calls a hypothesis. Now the thing is, the time is now to experiment, repeating the method over and over again to see if it continues to work. If it does, your hypothesis might be correct. If it fails then the hypothesis is certainly false.
NO! If we repeat it over and over again and it works every time, it won't be a miracle anymore. (by definition of the word "miracle")

Quote
Now I see the attraction of giving some credit to your god  for a healing or other and that's what they did up to the present scientific age. now, though, we are building a more and more complex picture of the human body and its workings. We are starting to understand things about the brain that were impossible even 20 years ago. We have many of the metabolic pathways in intricate detail but we are no way close to a full understanding. Thus we are in no position, yet awhile, to say that the body could not heal it in a particular set of circumstances. We can say it is unlikely but that is not the same thing.

That's where you're wrong. It is almost the same thing. The only difference being prayer and aftermath (the consequence of the "miracle" must not be grave)

Quote
So, Luk, try this scenario and tell me if, in the though experiment god could have been involved.
1. A ward of 20 people, the same age and gender and all having the exact same cancer and stage is observed.
2. All the patients are prayed for by their families, friends, pastors etc.
3. For each patient, there is a 5% chance of survival so, hopeless really.
4. After 2 weeks they are all dead with the exception of one who goes into remission and is picked up by his family. The family all go off to the church to thank god for the miracle healing he has received.
Was it clearly a miracle, Luk? Can we really say that from the above facts?
I believe that medical miracle are the product of one's prayer. So the patient that was healed must have pray to be considered a miracle. We will have to look into the repercussions of this miracle if you want the church to acknowledge it as a miracle from God. Because as you know now, Satan (or your cat) can do miracles too.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 03:59:09 PM
You have already been given examples of deception - the Catholic Church is famous for this sort of thing. Unfortunately, the Catholic Church cannot be trusted to be honest: there is simply too much at stake - think of the effect on the church and the local economy if the Vatican were to announce that the "miracle" is not a miracle.
Did you know that the Vatican denounce miracles that are not "christian" miracles...every year, thousands of time each year? If so, what is your point?
And deception? from the church? About a miracle? I don't remember a proof to have been given.

Quote
This is how your church is run: this is how they deceive you - I'm sure that they do it for what they see as the best of motives...
I'm not sure. Are you saying that the word of one reporter is worth more than millions of lives changed for the better each year?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 04:12:39 PM
I make no allegations, but think of what happened when John Paul II died. What did the ordinary people want? Right, they wanted him made a saint. The Vatican decided they could do it but they needed miracles to succeed.  Now, given the miracles are rather sparse in the world and that there is no way that one can predict when another one will happen[1] what do the authorities do to satisfy their members?

Well, someone tell me because I'm not sure.
 1. Assuming miracles do happen, which I doubt.
Here is how a miracle is decided (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/01/14/how_does_the_vatican_decide_what_s_a_miracle) for us Catholics. I hope it will help you understand better the concept. Remember, Satan (or your cat) can do miracles too.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: natlegend on May 21, 2014, 07:10:35 PM
You are the sick one. Interpreting "not a big deal" by "ok to do it" is really sick interpretation of what I'm saying. Grow up a little. "not a big deal" is referring to the law. People did not get in jail for this crime.
You make me sick

 >:(

Ok fuckface, exactly how should I have interpreted "not a big deal"? "Not a big deal" to whom? Was it "a big deal" to those being raped/molested? And you failed to answer my question, when did it not become "a big deal" to rape?

I make you sick?? Oh please.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 07:17:15 PM
You are the sick one. Interpreting "not a big deal" by "ok to do it" is really sick interpretation of what I'm saying. Grow up a little. "not a big deal" is referring to the law. People did not get in jail for this crime.
You make me sick

 >:(

Ok fuckface, exactly how should I have interpreted "not a big deal"? "Not a big deal" to whom? Was it "a big deal" to those being raped/molested? And you failed to answer my question, when did it not become "a big deal" to rape?

I make you sick?? Oh please.
Yes you are the kind of person who finds perfectly good ideas like that and twist them to suit your perverted needs.
Rape is not a good thing. Stop insinuating differently.
"when did it not become "a big deal" to rape?" It depends, a big deal for who? Per your definition, rape was always a big deal. By mine? I don't know when was the first law against rape. You might find your answer here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rape#What_type_of_crime.3F But I don't want to look further into it. It is not what this subject is about.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 21, 2014, 07:35:45 PM
Ah duh rape was, is and never will be a good idea.... are you fuking retarded?


i know right the OT condones it...evil rubbish book and evil god.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Emily on May 21, 2014, 07:57:42 PM
"when did it not become "a big deal" to rape?" It depends, a big deal for who? Per your definition, rape was always a big deal. By mine? I don't know when was the first law against rape. You might find your answer here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rape#What_type_of_crime.3F But I don't want to look further into it. It is not what this subject is about.

Maybe I am missing something here, but my bold: Are you saying that it has since become a big deal now that there are laws against it, and before there were such strict laws it wasn't?

If so, that's pretty fucked up. EDIT: Even if countries that have the most laid back laws regarding rape (such as just a slap on the wrist for the rapist instead of jail time), and if in historic times rapists got next to no penalty for their crime, rape is, was and always will be one of the worst things anyone can ever do to another person.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: natlegend on May 21, 2014, 08:06:16 PM
Yes you are the kind of person who finds perfectly good ideas like that and twist them to suit your perverted needs.

I actually feel queasy...  :-\

Rape is not a good thing. Stop insinuating differently.

Please point out where I did that. Liar.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: One Above All on May 21, 2014, 08:11:38 PM
Lukvance, as promised, median is here (check My post calling My followers here; he +1'd it). He is My follower. Ready to worship Me now instead of that made-up "god" YHWH?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 08:19:25 PM
Please point out where I did that. Liar.
Right here :
Quote
We do our best to stop [rape]. And our effort paid off. Before we tried to stop it, [rape] wasn't a big deal (in prehistoric time for example or during time of war or with the slaves)

Are you for real?? Rape wasn't a big deal during times of war and slavery?? So the women and children who suffered this appalling crime were okay with it???[/i]

At what point did rape become NOT okay?

Damn dude, you are one sick puppy. 
These ideas weren't there before you submitted them and by that insinuating them. I know your types game. You steer the conversation in a certain way.
I'm not a liar. Apologize.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 08:23:59 PM
Lukvance, as promised, median is here (check My post calling My followers here; he +1'd it). He is My follower. Ready to worship Me now instead of that made-up "god" YHWH?
hmmm you miss 22,708,798 others and I might start to even consider you. Why 22,708,798 you ask? Because it's the number of new Christians adherents per year.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 21, 2014, 08:25:12 PM
This one of the many miracles. Others you can go verify by yourself with today's tools. Anyway, if we find out one day some scientific explanation for an old miracle it does not remove the fact that it was a miracle back then. I believe that miracles answer to the law of conservation (that's the whole point of this topic). We just call them miracle because we can't explain why with all our technology at the time and because it is the result of prayer and because there are no grave consequences from this miracle.


NO! If we repeat it over and over again and it works every time, it won't be a miracle anymore. (by definition of the word "miracle")

Your definition of a miracle:
Quote
Events that cannot be ascribable to human power or the laws of nature

Once again, this is a textbook Argument From Ignorance Fallacy (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance), and is therefore irrational and invalid. Sorry. Just because you personally cannot explain a rare event does not in any way mean that a "God" did it. To prove causation you need to present the cause and show the mechanism by which the event occurred. All you are doing is using this argument in place of your own ignorance and willingness to believe supernaturalism on no evidence.

Furthermore, your definition renders "miracle" an absolutely meaningless term - since you cannot reliably distinguish a miracle from a non-miracle.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 08:26:41 PM
Maybe I am missing something here, but my bold: Are you saying that it has since become a big deal now that there are laws against it, and before there were such strict laws it wasn't?
You missed that part :
"not a big deal" is referring to the law. People did not get in jail for this crime.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: One Above All on May 21, 2014, 08:27:41 PM
hmmm you miss 22,708,798 others and I might start to even consider you. Why 22,708,798 you ask? Because it's the number of new Christians adherents per year.

And...? Entire worlds in various universes follow Me. Regrettably, they cannot communicate with you, seeing as how... you know... they're in different universes. I would point you to My followers on other worlds in your universe, but they don't want anything to do with you.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: magicmiles on May 21, 2014, 08:29:15 PM
Why 22,708,798 you ask? Because it's the number of new Christians adherents per year.

That number refers to babies born to parents who identify as Christian. Not the same thing as being a new Christian adherent.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: One Above All on May 21, 2014, 08:31:38 PM
That number refers to babies born to parents who identify as Christian. Not the same thing as being a new Christian adherent.

That's alright, magicmiles. The number is irrelevant. His point isn't, even though it's wrong.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 08:34:11 PM
Once again, this is a textbook Argument From Ignorance Fallacy (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance)
No it's not. It's the definition of the word. I'm not the one inventing definitions.
There are rational proofs that the events I cited were caused by God. Do you accept the testimony of scientists and people that disagree with you? Or are they all liars?
Anyway, miracle are amazing events, I hope one day you will live one yourself or someone close to you will live one.
Can we go back to the subject now?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 08:37:32 PM
Why 22,708,798 you ask? Because it's the number of new Christians adherents per year.
That number refers to babies born to parents who identify as Christian. Not the same thing as being a new Christian adherent.
Well not quite, 10% of that number are new Christian adherent. (2,501,396 converts to be exact)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 08:38:41 PM
hmmm you miss 22,708,798 others and I might start to even consider you. Why 22,708,798 you ask? Because it's the number of new Christians adherents per year.

And...? Entire worlds in various universes follow Me. Regrettably, they cannot communicate with you, seeing as how... you know... they're in different universes. I would point you to My followers on other worlds in your universe, but they don't want anything to do with you.
Yeah, too bad they can't communicate with me. Those 2,501,396 can :) They are still winning in numbers.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: G-Roll on May 21, 2014, 08:39:55 PM
Aren't you guys dizzy yet from going around in circles?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: One Above All on May 21, 2014, 08:42:52 PM
Why 22,708,798 you ask? Because it's the number of new Christians adherents per year.
That number refers to babies born to parents who identify as Christian. Not the same thing as being a new Christian adherent.
Well not quite, 10% of that number are new Christian adherent. (2,501,396 converts to be exact)

Pathetic numbers when you (or rather, I) have entire worlds in various universes (the ones I created) worshiping you (or rather, Me). Humans are a young species, prone to mistakes like worshiping deities they themselves created. It says so in My book. This has happened for as long as there has been life (excluding Myself and the other gods). You need to evolve before you reach the correct conclusion: that I exist and am not only a god, but the supreme ruler of the multiverse.

Yeah, too bad they can't communicate with me. Those 2,501,396 can :) They are still winning in numbers.

Tell Me, when you close your eyes, be it to blink or to go to sleep, do you believe everything just disappears? There are things beyond your perception and understanding, human.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on May 21, 2014, 08:56:47 PM
Man,I thought some of the other followers of Jesus were fucking nuts.....seems we have a new champ
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on May 21, 2014, 09:01:13 PM
hmmm you miss 22,708,798 others and I might start to even consider you. Why 22,708,798 you ask? Because it's the number of new Christians adherents per year.

And...? Entire worlds in various universes follow Me. Regrettably, they cannot communicate with you, seeing as how... you know... they're in different universes. I would point you to My followers on other worlds in your universe, but they don't want anything to do with you.
Yeah, too bad they can't communicate with me. Those 2,501,396 can :) They are still winning in numbers.
any idea how many new Muslims we get?.I bet they dwarf the number of Christians. The reason,men are strongly in charge in the Muslim world,not so much in the Christian world.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: One Above All on May 21, 2014, 09:01:35 PM
Lukvance, now 12 Monkeys has joined My followers as well, but I'm guessing no amount of followers will ever be enough for you. You want to cling to your false beliefs because your god (or rather, the people who made "him" up) promised you a non-existent afterlife, whereas I offer Truth.

12 Monkeys, My followers don't need to send money anywhere unless they want to (preferably to a good cause). They need only follow Me, and that's only because, if they didn't, they wouldn't be My followers.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on May 21, 2014, 09:04:22 PM
Is there a place where you have the rules for being a follower One above? I only wish to please my new overlord.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: One Above All on May 21, 2014, 09:08:31 PM
Is there a place where you have the rules for being a follower One above?

Do good. That's all. You will get it right, eventually. If not you, your children. If not your children, your children's children. If not your children's children, (...).

I only wish to please my new overlord.

"Overlord" implies some sort of coercion. Living beings flock to worship Me because they believe Me to be worthy of worship. Nothing more.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on May 21, 2014, 09:13:59 PM
I am new to praising anything,I do not wish to be a heratic.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: One Above All on May 21, 2014, 09:18:37 PM
I am new to praising anything,I do not wish to be a heratic.

There are no heretics, as far as I care. Just people who reached the wrong conclusions. It's not their fault.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on May 21, 2014, 09:26:14 PM
being a follower is as easy as being a Christian follower,as they ignore most of their gods rules anyways. The fact they can ignore or dismiss tenants of their god makes them look like followers of Satan and not Yahweh. Yahweh gets very angry if his rules are not followed. Earthquakes,drought,famine,disease,gay marriage,he (Yahweh) must truly be angry,where do you come in to this?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: One Above All on May 21, 2014, 09:42:01 PM
being a follower is as easy as being a Christian follower,as they ignore most of their gods rules anyways.

If you choose not to do good, that's your choice. I don't approve, but I give you the freedom to do it. Your own kind will be the judge on what they should do with you.

The fact they can ignore or dismiss tenants of their god makes them look like followers of Satan and not Yahweh. Yahweh gets very angry if his rules are not followed. Earthquakes,drought,famine,disease,gay marriage,he (Yahweh) must truly be angry,where do you come in to this?

I use My powers in any given universe twice and twice only (except for something I mention after this sentence): when I create it, and when I ascend one being. I also inhabit a body every once in a while, but that's another story.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 10:32:32 PM
any idea how many new Muslims we get?.I bet they dwarf the number of Christians. The reason,men are strongly in charge in the Muslim world,not so much in the Christian world.
That's what I thought first. But no, it's the other way around. 865,558 Muslim for 2,501,396 Christian convert. Almost 3 times more Christian convert than Muslim.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 21, 2014, 10:35:44 PM
Tell Me, when you close your eyes, be it to blink or to go to sleep, do you believe everything just disappears?
No.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 21, 2014, 11:51:24 PM
Quote
We do our best to stop [rape]. And our effort paid off. Before we tried to stop it, [rape] wasn't a big deal (in prehistoric time for example or during time of war or with the slaves)

Are you for real?? Rape wasn't a big deal during times of war and slavery?? So the women and children who suffered this appalling crime were okay with it???

At what point did rape become NOT okay?

Damn dude, you are one sick puppy. 
You are the sick one. Interpreting "not a big deal" by "ok to do it" is really sick interpretation of what I'm saying. Grow up a little. "not a big deal" is referring to the law. People did not get in jail for this crime.
You make me sick

I don't know why you bother speaking. If you don't want to get into pointless battles, you should not say idiotic things.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 21, 2014, 11:53:36 PM
any idea how many new Muslims we get?.I bet they dwarf the number of Christians. The reason,men are strongly in charge in the Muslim world,not so much in the Christian world.
That's what I thought first. But no, it's the other way around. 865,558 Muslim for 2,501,396 Christian convert. Almost 3 times more Christian convert than Muslim.

... and we are worrying about this because you want to say something pointless about it?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 22, 2014, 12:11:24 AM
Once again, this is a textbook Argument From Ignorance Fallacy (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance)
No it's not. It's the definition of the word. I'm not the one inventing definitions.
There are rational proofs that the events I cited were caused by God. Do you accept the testimony of scientists and people that disagree with you? Or are they all liars?
Anyway, miracle are amazing events, I hope one day you will live one yourself or someone close to you will live one.
Can we go back to the subject now?

You just presented a false dichotomy (that somehow it's either I accept someone's hear-say or they are "all liars"). That is another fallacy by you (amidst your long line of them thus far). I do not accept claims to the supernatural or miraculous by ANYBODY, b/c such claims are extremely extraordinary and have never (not once) been demonstrated to be a sufficient explanation for said events. In every case we discover that human beings were either lying or in error, and there is more than sufficient reason to doubt such claims. Mere testimony (i.e. - hear-say) is not sufficient to demonstrate that a miracle occurred. Why are you accepting (so hypocritically) less than ordinary evidence for such extraordinary claims??

"Amazing events" doesn't mean a god did it. You are being just plain gullible. One could just as easily claim that a magic unicorn did it, but that doesn't explain anything and neither does your deity assertion. That which can be asserted without evidence can be easily dismissed as nonsense.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: nogodsforme on May 22, 2014, 12:16:18 AM
any idea how many new Muslims we get?.I bet they dwarf the number of Christians. The reason,men are strongly in charge in the Muslim world,not so much in the Christian world.
That's what I thought first. But no, it's the other way around. 865,558 Muslim for 2,501,396 Christian convert. Almost 3 times more Christian convert than Muslim.

Your numbers are wrong. Islam is gaining converts at a faster rate than Christianity, at least in part because more Muslim babies are being born. Islam will be the largest religion in our lifetime, since population growth is higher in the areas like India, Indonesia and Pakistan where Islam is widely practiced.

But I hope you agree that higher numbers of adherents will not make Islam any more true.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: natlegend on May 22, 2014, 02:56:54 AM
Quote
Rape wasn't a big deal during times of war and slavery

Quote
These ideas weren't there before you submitted them and by that insinuating them. I know your types game. You steer the conversation in a certain way.

Your words luk, not mine.

These are your ideas, not mine. Stop trying to pass the buck. I refuse to engage with you anymore; you are abhorrent.



Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 22, 2014, 03:25:49 AM
Luk what do you consider is the correct way for a women to act.in a marriage?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 22, 2014, 03:40:29 AM
Rape's not a big deal in Pakistan either, if you watched the Four Corners episode   http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2014/05/12/4000606.htm

1800 men were surveyed, and 30% thought that sex with small boys was not a sin.  Something like 95% of the street boys have been raped by workers and bus drivers. Then they go onto to be rapist themselves.  Pakistan must be occupied with other issues.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 22, 2014, 03:51:09 AM
Rape's not a big deal in Pakistan either, if you watched the Four Corners episode   http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2014/05/12/4000606.htm

1800 men were surveyed, and 30% thought that sex with small boys was not a sin.  Something like 95% of the street boys have been raped by workers and bus drivers. Then they go onto to be rapist themselves.  Pakistan must be occupied with other issues.

So being an Islamic state doesn't affect the people then? One would have thought Muslims would act according to their religion and, as far as I know, these actions are not permitted by Islam are they? So much for religion being a force for good!
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Mrjason on May 22, 2014, 07:37:59 AM
any idea how many new Muslims we get?.I bet they dwarf the number of Christians. The reason,men are strongly in charge in the Muslim world,not so much in the Christian world.
That's what I thought first. But no, it's the other way around. 865,558 Muslim for 2,501,396 Christian convert. Almost 3 times more Christian convert than Muslim.

You have to take into account the fact that Christianity has a larger base to draw from. I'm assuming that you're using the wiki page on conversion as you're using the numbers that appear on that page. If you look at the % of Rate to Total  growth rate to size and # of adherents to each new convert Zoroastrianism is kicking Christianity's ass. Does this mean that Zoroastrianism is more believable? All praise Ahura Mazda!
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 22, 2014, 11:06:39 AM
I also inhabit a body every once in a while, but that's another story.

Yes, and I am not at all happy about the Youtube video you posted of what you did while inhabiting mine. Bad God! Bad!!! >:(

 ;)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 22, 2014, 11:09:51 AM
any idea how many new Muslims we get?.I bet they dwarf the number of Christians. The reason,men are strongly in charge in the Muslim world,not so much in the Christian world.
That's what I thought first. But no, it's the other way around. 865,558 Muslim for 2,501,396 Christian convert. Almost 3 times more Christian convert than Muslim.

Your numbers are wrong. Islam is gaining converts at a faster rate than Christianity, at least in part because more Muslim babies are being born. Islam will be the largest religion in our lifetime, since population growth is higher in the areas like India, Indonesia and Pakistan where Islam is widely practiced.

But I hope you agree that higher numbers of adherents will not make Islam any more true.
I'm wrong!? I hope you have liable sources to prove this.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 22, 2014, 11:11:14 AM
Luk what do you consider is the correct way for a women to act.in a marriage?
Women and men are equal. She shouldn't have to do anything that the man don't want to do. [objectionable phrase removed GB]
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Mrjason on May 22, 2014, 11:12:00 AM
I also inhabit a body every once in a while, but that's another story.

Yes, and I am not at all happy about the Youtube video you posted of what you did while inhabiting mine. Bad God! Bad!!! >:(

 ;)

Is "inhabiting a body" a euphemism?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 22, 2014, 11:16:12 AM
You have to take into account the fact that Christianity has a larger base to draw from. I'm assuming that you're using the wiki page on conversion as you're using the numbers that appear on that page. If you look at the % of Rate to Total  growth rate to size and # of adherents to each new convert Zoroastrianism is kicking Christianity's ass. Does this mean that Zoroastrianism is more believable? All praise Ahura Mazda!

Of course, the larger you are the harder it is to become larger. For example look at One above all religion. 300% grow since yesterday...Does this mean that One above all religion is more believable? No, it just mean that there are not a lot of followers.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 22, 2014, 11:26:07 AM
Is "inhabiting a body" a euphemism?

It sure as hell didn't feel like an euphemism at the time. :o
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: One Above All on May 22, 2014, 12:21:41 PM
I also inhabit a body every once in a while, but that's another story.

Yes, and I am not at all happy about the Youtube video you posted of what you did while inhabiting mine. Bad God! Bad!!! >:(

 ;)

Is "inhabiting a body" a euphemism?

Sort of. I am born into a world I see fit, inhabit it for as long as the body allows, then go back to my position as observer of whatever universe that world is in.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: natlegend on May 22, 2014, 08:41:12 PM
Luk what do you consider is the correct way for a women to act.in a marriage?
Women and men are equal. She shouldn't have to do anything that the man don't want to do.  [objectionable phrase removed GB]

And here we see a glimpse of your true colours you sick, twisted f**k. You really make me retch.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: nogodsforme on May 22, 2014, 10:24:58 PM
Of course, the larger you are the harder it is to become larger. For example look at One above all religion. 300% grow since yesterday...Does this mean that One above all religion is more believable? No, it just mean that there are not a lot of followers.

This is the most logical thing you have said in a long time. The rate of growth in a religion has nothing to do with whether or not it is true. Islam and Mormonism are growing more quickly than Judaism or Shintoism. Higher birth rates mean faster growth, since most people follow the religion of their parents.

Likewise, the number of members has nothing to do with truth, either. People convert to religions for lots of reasons other then truth, including to stay alive. If I had to live for the rest of my life in Pakistan, Afghanistan or Iran, you better believe I would "convert" to Islam. Would I believe any of it? Of course not. Would I fake it? Damn straight.

Likewise, slaves and conquered people were expected to "convert" to the religion of the more powerful group. Christians, especially Catholics from Spain, France and Portugal, became really good at conquering and enslaving people over the past 500 years. Thus, most people worldwide who are the descendants of slaves and conquered people are Catholic Christians today. This is not something to be proud of.

You will therefore no longer bring up the rate of growth in Christianity or the numbers of members of your faith as evidence for it being true.

So, what else have you got?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Nam on May 22, 2014, 10:37:45 PM
More time than than not when I hear about two people from separate religions marry either one is forced to make a decision or one just doesn't really care. Like Christians who marry Jews, from what I've read, and seen, Christians convert to Judaism rather than the other way around. Just an opinion based on my observations.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 22, 2014, 10:52:00 PM
You will therefore no longer bring up the rate of growth in Christianity or the numbers of members of your faith as evidence for it being true.
So, what else have you got?
Got for what? If you read correctly the replies, I did NOT "bring up the rate of growth in Christianity or the numbers of members of my faith as evidence for it being true."
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 22, 2014, 10:56:45 PM
More time than than not when I hear about two people from separate religions marry either one is forced to make a decision or one just doesn't really care. Like Christians who marry Jews, from what I've read, and seen, Christians convert to Judaism rather than the other way around. Just an opinion based on my observations.
-Nam
About the numbers of convert from Jews to Christians : "in the 1890s the number was running closer to 3,000 per year"[1] Each year Judaism is losing 70,447 followers[2].
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_converts_to_Christianity_from_Judaism
 2. http://fastestgrowingreligion.com/numbers.html
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 23, 2014, 08:39:05 AM
You will therefore no longer bring up the rate of growth in Christianity or the numbers of members of your faith as evidence for it being true.
So, what else have you got?
Got for what? If you read correctly the replies, I did NOT "bring up the rate of growth in Christianity or the numbers of members of my faith as evidence for it being true."

But you did bring up numbers as a factor in how you determine whether something/someone is worthy of worship or praise:
hmmm you miss 22,708,798 others and I might start to even consider you. Why 22,708,798 you ask? Because it's the number of new Christians adherents per year.
Which isn't all that far off from saying that the sheer number of Christian adherents plays a factor in how strongly you think that Christianity (at least, the god is good and worthy of praise bit) is true.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Nam on May 23, 2014, 09:53:07 AM
More time than than not when I hear about two people from separate religions marry either one is forced to make a decision or one just doesn't really care. Like Christians who marry Jews, from what I've read, and seen, Christians convert to Judaism rather than the other way around. Just an opinion based on my observations.
-Nam
About the numbers of convert from Jews to Christians : "in the 1890s the number was running closer to 3,000 per year"[1] Each year Judaism is losing 70,447 followers[2].
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_converts_to_Christianity_from_Judaism
 2. http://fastestgrowingreligion.com/numbers.html

Wow! The 1890s. What about the 1990s? Christianity is dropping considerably in western countries from deconversions or conversions most likely the former. In the US alone it dropped from 86% to 76%. Your "converts" are mainly in poorer areas of the world and/or strict religions, like Islam, who have the mentality of "Convert and die" -- literally. But Christians are no better would be no better in such places because it's the mentality.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: nogodsforme on May 23, 2014, 10:26:06 AM
More time than than not when I hear about two people from separate religions marry either one is forced to make a decision or one just doesn't really care. Like Christians who marry Jews, from what I've read, and seen, Christians convert to Judaism rather than the other way around. Just an opinion based on my observations.
-Nam
About the numbers of convert from Jews to Christians : "in the 1890s the number was running closer to 3,000 per year"[1] Each year Judaism is losing 70,447 followers[2].
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_converts_to_Christianity_from_Judaism
 2. http://fastestgrowingreligion.com/numbers.html

Interesting how the only time most Christian acknowledge that other groups are Christians is when they want the numbers to be high. According to your fastest growing religions source, the only way Christianity has more adherents than Islam is by including every single possible type of Christian (Orthodox, Anglicans, JW's, Mormons, etc.) If you only count Catholics, Islam has you beat already. You have to buddy up with the Mormons to get to #1.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 23, 2014, 10:35:36 AM
Ah, but what about Islam. Apart from the Sunni and Shia who like each other so much they blow up each other's mosques there are other divisions too. If we have to split Christianity up as the various denominations hardly talk to each other, we have to do the same for Islam too which would leave not so much with a winner but just plain confused.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 23, 2014, 01:01:01 PM
Interesting how the only time most Christian acknowledge that other groups are Christians is when they want the numbers to be high. According to your fastest growing religions source, the only way Christianity has more adherents than Islam is by including every single possible type of Christian (Orthodox, Anglicans, JW's, Mormons, etc.) If you only count Catholics, Islam has you beat already. You have to buddy up with the Mormons to get to #1.
Ever heard of Sunni? Shia? Sufism? Ahmadiyya? Ibadi? Quranism? They are the Catholics of Islam. Do you want to rephrase your previous assertion?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Jesuis on May 23, 2014, 01:57:21 PM
Ah, but what about Islam. Apart from the Sunni and Shia who like each other so much they blow up each other's mosques there are other divisions too. If we have to split Christianity up as the various denominations hardly talk to each other, we have to do the same for Islam too which would leave not so much with a winner but just plain confused.
People do not want to love God's creation.
They are possessed of selfishness and of ego and follow their mind's dictates. They will reap the suffering they sow that's for sure. It is only our state of forgiveness that helps them when we see their suffering.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 23, 2014, 02:09:15 PM
Interesting how the only time most Christian acknowledge that other groups are Christians is when they want the numbers to be high. According to your fastest growing religions source, the only way Christianity has more adherents than Islam is by including every single possible type of Christian (Orthodox, Anglicans, JW's, Mormons, etc.) If you only count Catholics, Islam has you beat already. You have to buddy up with the Mormons to get to #1.
Ever heard of Sunni? Shia? Sufism? Ahmadiyya? Ibadi? Quranism? They are the Catholics of Islam. Do you want to rephrase your previous assertion?

No!
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: epidemic on May 23, 2014, 02:56:47 PM
Interesting how the only time most Christian acknowledge that other groups are Christians is when they want the numbers to be high. According to your fastest growing religions source, the only way Christianity has more adherents than Islam is by including every single possible type of Christian (Orthodox, Anglicans, JW's, Mormons, etc.) If you only count Catholics, Islam has you beat already. You have to buddy up with the Mormons to get to #1.
Ever heard of Sunni? Shia? Sufism? Ahmadiyya? Ibadi? Quranism? They are the Catholics of Islam. Do you want to rephrase your previous assertion?

No!

to be fair I think Catholisism probably is the biggest sects in the world. It does have a 500 year advantage over islam and it had the advent of being spread by the sword all over South America.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Nam on May 23, 2014, 04:13:25 PM
Interesting how the only time most Christian acknowledge that other groups are Christians is when they want the numbers to be high. According to your fastest growing religions source, the only way Christianity has more adherents than Islam is by including every single possible type of Christian (Orthodox, Anglicans, JW's, Mormons, etc.) If you only count Catholics, Islam has you beat already. You have to buddy up with the Mormons to get to #1.
Ever heard of Sunni? Shia? Sufism? Ahmadiyya? Ibadi? Quranism? They are the Catholics of Islam. Do you want to rephrase your previous assertion?

No!

to be fair I think Catholisism probably is the biggest sects in the world. It does have a 500 year advantage over islam and it had the advent of being spread by the sword all over South America.

Not just South America.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 23, 2014, 04:35:06 PM
Do the stats count the deconverts as well. everytime the evangelicals come thru my town with a full outdoor stadium rock production gala event they get lots of converts, 6months later they are back to whatever they were .


the evangelicals just count how many came forward that minute.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: nogodsforme on May 23, 2014, 04:54:50 PM
When Christianity first started, it was a minority sect. Was it less true in 200 AD when there were far fewer members than now? If it was true when there were 100 members, it is just as true today. And if it was false when there were 100 members, it is just as false today. Numbers have no bearing on religious truth. People tend to follow the religion most prevalent where they live, even if it is a tiny minority globally. 

Counting religious adherents is pretty tricky. I would guess that all the numbers are over-inflated. As I mentioned before, a person would be crazy to say they were not Muslim in a strict theocracy like Iran.

In many countries, people feel pressured to say they believe in the most prevalent religion. Most people who practice fringe religions or banned sects are reluctant to publicly say what their faith is. In Haiti most people practice Vodun, but say that they are Catholic. Once you start taking into account all the schisms and sects and breakaway groups, even the mainstream religions start to look a lot smaller.

If you subtracted the people who practice more than one faith out of convenience, or only half-heartedly participate because of family and are not hardcore believers, the numbers would shrink even more.

I don't know why Lukvance thinks the numbers matter, since we have established that global or regional numbers are not equivalent to truth.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 23, 2014, 05:09:52 PM
Pornography users are growing rapidly and is a huge international market so in luks logic.....
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Astreja on May 24, 2014, 12:09:33 AM
to be fair I think Catholisism probably is the biggest sects in the world. It does have a 500 year advantage over islam and it had the advent of being spread by the sword all over South America.

Not just South America.

Já, I'm still miffed after the "convert or die" stunt they pulled in Norway and Iceland about a thousand years ago -- But that pales in comparison to the atrocities the RCC committed in North America in relatively recent times.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Jehovah God on May 24, 2014, 07:23:30 AM
Amputees are reaping what they have sowed.

You're an idiot.

(http://www.un.org/Depts/oip/images/landmine6.jpg)

Oh my goodness, that Hell-bound kid looks so funny lol
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 24, 2014, 07:28:51 AM
^ folks don't jump him, he does make a crude  point given the context of luks and jesuis statements ..i think.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 24, 2014, 11:18:13 AM
I don't know why Lukvance thinks the numbers matter, since we have established that global or regional numbers are not equivalent to truth.

The more people you have, the more experience you get, the closer to the truth you are. (the truth can be "it is good" or "it is bad")
When tell a lie and people have the freedom to confront that lie it is harder to lie if there are a lot of peopole than if there is few. Plus, in case of religion, you have testimony. The more testimony you have the more true it gets. Having 10 expert saying it is true is less plausible than having 1000.
Numbers are important whether you want it or not you live in a world where they are at the top of the pyramid.
You know what? Even a cure cannot be considered as a cure as long as there are enough people cured by the said cure.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Graybeard on May 24, 2014, 11:45:33 AM
I don't know why Lukvance thinks the numbers matter, since we have established that global or regional numbers are not equivalent to truth.

The more people you have, the more experience you get, the closer to the truth you are. (the truth can be "it is good" or "it is bad")
When tell a lie and people have the freedom to confront that lie it is harder to lie if there are a lot of peopole than if there is few. Plus, in case of religion, you have testimony. The more testimony you have the more true it gets. Having 10 expert saying it is true is less plausible than having 1000.
Numbers are important whether you want it or not you live in a world where they are at the top of the pyramid.
You know what? Even a cure cannot be considered as a cure as long as there are enough people cured by the said cure.

Lukvance,
You have, unwittingly given the very best demonstration as to why there should be no religion.

Your argument can be reduced to “Eat s**t, one trillion flies cannot be wrong.”

As long as you believe that what millions of people believe must be the truth, you will be living in ignorance.

The truth is not democratic.

Unquestioning, gullible masses are not the arbiters of truth. The unquestioning, gullible masses have never helped society. The religious represent unquestioning, gullible masses.

Some years ago I was in Ireland and shared a table at a pub with a priest. The priest told me that when swallows migrate across the ocean, they carry with them a stick so that they can rest upon the waves of the sea… If you are taught this as truth from a man of authority, you will believe it but it is complete fiction.

The Church preaches ignorance and lies and the unquestioning, gullible masses believe them.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: skeptic54768 on May 24, 2014, 12:23:01 PM
Lukvance,
You have, unwittingly given the very best demonstration as to why there should be no religion.

Your argument can be reduced to “Eat s**t, one trillion flies cannot be wrong.”

As long as you believe that what millions of people believe must be the truth, you will be living in ignorance.

The truth is not democratic.


So we can forget the argument of, "If millions of scientists accept evolution, then it has to be true."

Do you agree?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 24, 2014, 12:52:00 PM
Your argument can be reduced to “Eat s**t, one trillion flies cannot be wrong.”
I would not say that. I would say "hey look at this many happy people, there must be a reason why they are happy! let's have a look"
Quote
As long as you believe that what millions of people believe must be the truth, you will be living in ignorance.
Of course. But not looking into it would be a shame wouldn't it?
Quote
The truth is not democratic.
I agree. It's universal.
Quote
Unquestioning, gullible masses are not the arbiters of truth. The unquestioning, gullible masses have never helped society. The religious represent unquestioning, gullible masses.
Bold mine. What proof can you give us?
We are talking more than 50% of the world population believe there is a god (monotheist) your gullible mass and less than 25% believe there are none (atheists)
Also, can you say with certitude that it was the gullible masses that hurt more society than the un-gullible mass? (using your definition of gullible mass)

Quote
Some years ago I was in Ireland and shared a table at a pub with a priest. The priest told me that when swallows migrate across the ocean, they carry with them a stick so that they can rest upon the waves of the sea… If you are taught this as truth from a man of authority, you will believe it but it is complete fiction.
My teacher taught me that Christophe Colomb believed that the earth was flat.[1]
 1. In fact, the navigational techniques of Columbus' time were actually based on the fact that the Earth was a sphere. Trying to navigate the globe as if it was a flat plane would have fucked up the trip even more than it was.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: nogodsforme on May 24, 2014, 08:16:21 PM
Lukvance you are saying this:

1) Happiness is a good determinant of truth.  You know that many times, people are much happier with lies ("You don't look fat in that dress." "Your puppy is in heaven chasing rabbits all day." "A man gives you a big diamond like that, he must really love you." "This lotto ticket is a sure fire winner!" )

2) If most people do something, it must be correct. You know that popular things that "everyone" does are often wrong: Slavery was a commonly accepted practice all over the world from the beginnings of human history until the 20th century. Most people in Germany went along with the Nazis. Most people in the Middle Ages went along with burning witches.

What you are implying is that the main argument for checking out Christianity is to jump on the bandwagon, not because it is actually true, but because it is popular, and seems to make people happy.

Here is what you are saying: When there were only a handful of Christians in the world, and did not make very many people happy, it must have been a lie. Nowadays, there are two billion members, and most are happy, so it must be true.

So, when, exactly did it become true?

You also ignore the fact that certain religions have more members because people who had that faith conquered and enslaved more people. The Jains and Bahai's, for example, are very peaceful religions and do not conquer or enslave anyone. They mind their own business, don't try to get their religion made into law and don't try to push conversion on others. They will never become world dominating religions that way, and might even die out. Yet, they are as happy and as likely to be true as any other religion.

If you live in Iran or India, you see very few Christians around, and those few are not happy. So, what reason would you have for investigating that religion? None, according to you. Most people around you are Muslim or Hindu and most of them are happy. Case closed.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 24, 2014, 10:01:05 PM
Your argument can be reduced to “Eat s**t, one trillion flies cannot be wrong.”
I would not say that. I would say "hey look at this many happy people, there must be a reason why they are happy! let's have a look"

This sounds pretty dishonest, because you aren't just having a look. You have started with your conclusion FIRST, and are now trying to defend it no matter what. That is backwards, and quite hypocritical since you likely don't do this with other supernatural claims. Happiness is not a determining factor of whether or not a supernatural claim is true. Again, you keep resorting to these subjective internal and wholly personal self-diagnoses as the standard of how we ought to separate fact from fiction. Such a method is unreliable since we know human beings tell lies, exaggerate, self dilute, make grievous errors, and misinterpret their said experiences all the time. So again, you aren't providing any reliable foundation for determining whether these alleged miracle claims actually occurred. It's just more obfuscating and attempts at rationalizing away the fact that you do not have independently demonstrable evidence.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Jag on May 25, 2014, 10:30:40 AM
I want to make two observations, and a disclaimer before either - it's Sunday Bloody (Mary) Sunday here and I'm a ridiculous light-weight.

First: I've been noticing a tendency among some of the theists to put strong emphasis on "happiness" in regards to their convictions. Happiness seems to be a big deal, to the point that I'm beginning to wonder if we all see that emotion the same way. Patience please, I'm working through this as I write, and it's all connected to my classes.

(I'm in Communication Studies, which in application involves a lot of sociology.  One recurring theme is that humans are good at identifying only three emotions - happy, angry, and sad. This is what I'm thinking about in relation to these observations.)

I'm getting a sense that "happy" is being applied rather liberally. As in "if I'm not angry, or sad, then I must be happy". There's nothing wrong with that, but I don't think it really reflect most people's reality. Maybe it's just me, but if I was to assess my state of mind routinely, I think most of the time my emotional state would be "neutral", neither happy not sad, mostly preoccupied by whatever I'm doing. Any thoughts?

Second observation is related to how adherents are being measured. When theists start throwing around numbers, I question if they are factoring the general population increase into their opinions of the raw data. It seems that comparing ratios over time, or percentages by divisions (as broad or as narrow as one would want) to each other and the total population at any given point. Am I missing something, or would that be a more accurate representation of the size of any particular religion versus another in terms of the conversion or growth rates that theist sometimes use as an argument in support of their beliefs?

Is this a valid point or is vodka helping/making ( &) ) me overlook something?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 25, 2014, 11:07:00 AM
1) Happiness is a good determinant of truth.  You know that many times, people are much happier with lies ("You don't look fat in that dress." "Your puppy is in heaven chasing rabbits all day." "A man gives you a big diamond like that, he must really love you." "This lotto ticket is a sure fire winner!" )
No I'm not saying that.

Quote
2) If most people do something, it must be correct. You know that popular things that "everyone" does are often wrong: Slavery was a commonly accepted practice all over the world from the beginnings of human history until the 20th century. Most people in Germany went along with the Nazis. Most people in the Middle Ages went along with burning witches.
I'm not saying that neither. Ask before you explode.

Quote
What you are implying is that the main argument for checking out Christianity is to jump on the bandwagon, not because it is actually true, but because it is popular, and seems to make people happy.
Not at all.

Quote
Here is what you are saying: When there were only a handful of Christians in the world, and did not make very many people happy, it must have been a lie. Nowadays, there are two billion members, and most are happy, so it must be true.
Again your words not mine. Stop putting words on my back.

Quote
So, when, exactly did it become true?
When what?

Quote
You also ignore the fact that certain religions have more members because people who had that faith conquered and enslaved more people. The Jains and Bahai's, for example, are very peaceful religions and do not conquer or enslave anyone. They mind their own business, don't try to get their religion made into law and don't try to push conversion on others. They will never become world dominating religions that way, and might even die out. Yet, they are as happy and as likely to be true as any other religion.
I don't ignore them at all. You are the one ignoring them at the moment.

Quote
If you live in Iran or India, you see very few Christians around, and those few are not happy. So, what reason would you have for investigating that religion? None, according to you. Most people around you are Muslim or Hindu and most of them are happy. Case closed.
Your own case then. Not mine.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 25, 2014, 11:09:50 AM
Your argument can be reduced to “Eat s**t, one trillion flies cannot be wrong.”
I would not say that. I would say "hey look at this many happy people, there must be a reason why they are happy! let's have a look"

This sounds pretty dishonest, because you aren't just having a look. You have started with your conclusion FIRST, and are now trying to defend it no matter what. That is backwards, and quite hypocritical since you likely don't do this with other supernatural claims. Happiness is not a determining factor of whether or not a supernatural claim is true. Again, you keep resorting to these subjective internal and wholly personal self-diagnoses as the standard of how we ought to separate fact from fiction. Such a method is unreliable since we know human beings tell lies, exaggerate, self dilute, make grievous errors, and misinterpret their said experiences all the time. So again, you aren't providing any reliable foundation for determining whether these alleged miracle claims actually occurred. It's just more obfuscating and attempts at rationalizing away the fact that you do not have independently demonstrable evidence.
I'm sorry, did you have the impression that I was trying to prove the existence of miracles? I already did that a long time ago. I have moved on, you should too.
Quote
You have started with your conclusion FIRST, and are now trying to defend it no matter what
What are you talking about!? Which conclusion?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 25, 2014, 11:18:07 AM
I think most of the time my emotional state would be "neutral", neither happy not sad, mostly preoccupied by whatever I'm doing. Any thoughts?
I agree, there is a state called "neutral". It's been a while since I've been in that state, I call it "bored" these days.

Quote
Am I missing something, or would that be a more accurate representation of the size of any particular religion versus another in terms of the conversion or growth rates that theist sometimes use as an argument in support of their beliefs?
Maybe you should precise whom statistics you are referring to. I talked about conversion rate on many occasion.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Jag on May 25, 2014, 12:22:35 PM
Do you recognize that my post was very general, and not directed at you in particular or specific?

In fact, of anyone who may read this post, your input is likely to be the least useful.

Again, we're obviously defining various emotional states quite differently. "Preoccupied with whatever I'm doing" by definition would be in direct opposition to your declaration of "boredom".

"Enjoying what I'm doing" is not the same as "happy", at least not to me. Happy signifies more than "in a good mood", happy would be at least a step above an ordinary day. It's fleeting, not an ongoing semi-permanent state. I don't believe in deities of any sort, and I can confidently assert that my day to day mood is better as a free-thinking student of both college and of life. The absence of any lingering god-beliefs has measurably improved my mood overall, and I'm somewhat happier, somewhat more often, as a result. It makes me genuinely happy to grasp an idea that I wouldn't have been able to comprehend before learning to think critically. Realizing that I don't actually believe in any gods was the first step in an ongoing journey in educating myself about reality and the world I live in right here and now. Because this life is the only time I know beyond question that I have available to me, it serves me best to see reality as clearly as possible without relying on an unproven and unprovable extra assumption.

Whether a god exists or not is almost beside the point. Have the humility to admit that your interpretation of a book written and selectively edited for the last 2,000 years is unique to you and in no way provides any proof that they accurately represent objective reality.

If you think the best way for you to live your life is to get online and proclaim your unending happiness and delight at wandering through life grinning like a fool, please go right ahead. But you ought not be surprised if most people find it laughably difficult to take anything you say seriously as a result.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: nogodsforme on May 25, 2014, 05:08:25 PM
Lukvance, you yourself said that if many people are Christians, and they seem to be happy, it is worth looking into. You are either implying that numbers plus happiness equals truth, or that it does not matter if Christianity is true or not. Isn't it possible that a religion could be true even though it has very few members and they are unhappy? Perhaps because they are persecuted by the majority?

If numbers do not matter (and I agree with that), why do you keep telling us that there are more converts to Christianity per year, and citing references that show Christianity to have more members?

Can you explain why else anyone should "look into" Christianity (instead of the Bahai faith, for example), besides numbers and perceived levels of happiness among members?


Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 25, 2014, 08:11:55 PM
Isn't it possible that a religion could be true even though it has very few members and they are unhappy? Perhaps because they are persecuted by the majority?
Yes. Christians at the beginning weren't as many as they are now. (they were few and persecuted even if not by the majority)

Quote
If numbers do not matter (and I agree with that), why do you keep telling us that there are more converts to Christianity per year, and citing references that show Christianity to have more members?
I was answering a question or correcting a mistake. Look up when I used these numbers.

Quote
Can you explain why else anyone should "look into" Christianity (instead of the Bahai faith, for example), besides numbers and perceived levels of happiness among members?
I can think of many reasons why.
Testimonies like mine should make it interesting to look into.
Having a community available to listen to you is essential for you social evolution. Church could help you with that.
Some might find the possibility to confess a great plus in their life.
The ability to know for sure that your decision was the right choice.
Finally, Catholicism will allow you to attain a new degree of happiness, the long lasting type.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 25, 2014, 08:40:22 PM
I'm sorry, did you have the impression that I was trying to prove the existence of miracles? I already did that a long time ago. I have moved on, you should too.

No, you didn't prove miracles. You merely asserted it by using an argument from ignorance/incredulity fallacy by asserting that certain unexplained or rare events cannot be explained by physical laws or by use of natural explanations (when you don't know that)...'Uh, so therefore the magic god must have done it'. And you didn't even attempt to backup such claims. All you did was make more assertions.

Sorry, your saying so doesn't make it so (regardless of how much you may want it to) and using irrational arguments such as these does not cut it.

What are you talking about!? Which conclusion?

Well, for starters the conclusion that there must be a god (and that you just had to pick one religion), but also that certain phenomena or rare events cannot be explained sufficiently in natural terms. Neither of those starting points have you even attempted to rationally justify.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 25, 2014, 08:53:29 PM
I'm sorry, did you have the impression that I was trying to prove the existence of miracles? I already did that a long time ago. I have moved on, you should too.

No, you didn't prove miracles. You merely asserted it by using an argument from ignorance/incredulity fallacy by asserting that certain unexplained or rare events cannot be explained by physical laws or by use of natural explanations (when you don't know that)...'Uh, so therefore the magic god must have done it'. And you didn't even attempt to backup such claims. All you did was make more assertions.

Sorry, your saying so doesn't make it so (regardless of how much you may want it to) and using irrational arguments such as these does not cut it.

What are you talking about!? Which conclusion?

Well, for starters the conclusion that there must be a god (and that you just had to pick one religion), but also that certain phenomena or rare events cannot be explained sufficiently in natural terms. Neither of those starting points have you even attempted to rationally justify.
What's the relation to healing amputees?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 25, 2014, 09:04:51 PM
"What are you talking about"


Becoming luks standard retort.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 25, 2014, 11:29:56 PM
I'm sorry, did you have the impression that I was trying to prove the existence of miracles? I already did that a long time ago. I have moved on, you should too.

No, you didn't prove miracles. You merely asserted it by using an argument from ignorance/incredulity fallacy by asserting that certain unexplained or rare events cannot be explained by physical laws or by use of natural explanations (when you don't know that)...'Uh, so therefore the magic god must have done it'. And you didn't even attempt to backup such claims. All you did was make more assertions.

Sorry, your saying so doesn't make it so (regardless of how much you may want it to) and using irrational arguments such as these does not cut it.

What are you talking about!? Which conclusion?

Well, for starters the conclusion that there must be a god (and that you just had to pick one religion), but also that certain phenomena or rare events cannot be explained sufficiently in natural terms. Neither of those starting points have you even attempted to rationally justify.
What's the relation to healing amputees?

LOL. I will respond just like you did a few days ago. "We're almost there." Please respond directly to the rebuttals I posted.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 25, 2014, 11:37:46 PM
First rebuttal. I wasn't trying to prove miracles existed.
Second rebuttal I already told you why I chose God.
I don't know what more to say...
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 25, 2014, 11:49:26 PM
First rebuttal. I wasn't trying to prove miracles existed.
Second rebuttal I already told you why I chose God.
I don't know what more to say...

Now you are just lying while refusing to respond to my rebuttal. You specifically said, "I already did that a long time ago." pertaining to proving miracles. And I was respond to THAT claim. You did NOT prove miracles. You just claimed that you did and you were rebutted. So stop pretending that you proved something here which you did not. Are you a child?

Second, I didn't ask you why you "chose God". But if you are admitting that you started with your conclusion then Thank You for once being honest. However, this doesn't help your case for demonstrating a God. It works against you because it shows that you began with the mere assumption that some "God" thing must exist, instead of beginning with critical thinking and rational thought.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 25, 2014, 11:56:04 PM
I told you. I proved it but you refuted it by saying that it wasn't approved by your impossible standards. Standards that you can't seem to be able to apply for yourself but you want others to do.
For me to answer your question you will have to acknowledge first his existence (that's what implied in your questions). Do you agree with me that God exist?
I will acknowlege his existence for the sake of argument."
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 26, 2014, 03:45:14 AM
I told you. I proved it but you refuted it by saying that it wasn't approved by your impossible standards. Standards that you can't seem to be able to apply for yourself but you want others to do.
For me to answer your question you will have to acknowledge first his existence (that's what implied in your questions). Do you agree with me that God exist?
I will acknowlege his existence for the sake of argument."

Now you are just going off onto tangents, talking about "impossible standards" for which I have never spoken about (and of which you are 100% wrong). Then you quote epidemic as if that was me - when it wasn't.

I DO NOT have "impossible standards" and I really resent your accusation b/c it is completely false. I told you (multiple times) the kinds of evidence you need to bring forth in order to demonstrate that your alleged deity is real/actual (i.e. - the same kinds of evidence that would need to be presented if a salesman came to your door and started making claims about a magic potion that he was selling). Coincidentally, your own bible says that you should be able to physically demonstrate the supernatural. Read it (Mark 16, John 14, Matthew 18,21). And instead of just admitting that you can't provide the actual evidence you diverted the conversation to talking about "impossible standards". How dishonest! The standards I presented are NOT impossible. They are used ALL THE TIME for tons of things in everyday life. You just don't like it that you can't provide actual demonstrable evidence of this alleged deity so you try to obfuscate the conversation and divert attention away from the hypocritical standard that you have bought into (i.e - the one where you accept the supernatural claims of your religion but reject those of others).

Faith is not a reliable pathway for separating fact from fiction.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 26, 2014, 04:04:16 AM
I rather think, Median, that nothing is going to come of a call for evidence because, despite what he says, I don't think Luk has anything to offer that hasn't been tried before. However....

Luk, somewhere in the NT it instructs that when a church member is sick, the people should come a pray at the bedside and anoint the person with oil so that he will become well again. This is reinforced by the passages in the Gospels which say that whatever people ask in Jesus will be granted. So, and here's the point, what do you do when you get ill? Do you follow the instructions in god's word or do you just see a doctor?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 26, 2014, 04:28:05 AM
Gonna print me a T;


GOD EXISTS......in my mind.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 26, 2014, 12:13:56 PM
what do you do when you get ill? Do you follow the instructions in god's word or do you just see a doctor?
I pray first. If there is no improvement, I go see a doctor. Sometime my faith is strong enough to avoid the doctor, sometime it isn't.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 26, 2014, 12:30:08 PM
what do you do when you get ill? Do you follow the instructions in god's word or do you just see a doctor?
I pray first. If there is no improvement, I go see a doctor. Sometime my faith is strong enough to avoid the doctor, sometime it isn't.

This is completely aside from the point b/c your bible says that any disciple of Jesus can ask for anything and it shall be given. What you are doing is rationalizing the clear contradiction that exists there (that the believer asks and does not receive - and thus your bible is wrong). But you still haven't even come close to demonstrating how you can reliably tell a miracle from a non-miracle. All you did was attempt to assert that correlation implies causation (that if you pray and something happens it means it was your God) when it does not mean that. It is your assumption, which rests upon your previous religious presuppositions. And this is exactly the same kind of rationalizing that you have done in regards to amputees.

The best explanation for why amputees are not healed is that the alleged God of the bible is not real.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 26, 2014, 12:44:30 PM
... and it goes against the clear teaching in the Epistles, that the elders should gather round the sick person, anoint him with oil, and pray over him. This appears to be a clear winning point of evidence for god - if it works...

So, I take it Luk, this doesn't actually work and so your god doesn't do what it is clear from the bible he said he would - to grant prayers prayed through Jesus[1].
 1. and it was Jesus who said he would too!
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 26, 2014, 01:59:15 PM
And instead of just admitting that you can't provide the actual evidence you diverted the conversation to talking about "impossible standards".
I cannot provide more evidence than you could if you were to prove something of the same nature that you believe exist.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 26, 2014, 02:01:49 PM
... and it goes against the clear teaching in the Epistles, that the elders should gather round the sick person, anoint him with oil, and pray over him. This appears to be a clear winning point of evidence for god - if it works...
So, I take it Luk, this doesn't actually work and so your god doesn't do what it is clear from the bible he said he would - to grant prayers prayed through Jesus[1].
 1. and it was Jesus who said he would too!
It works, we have proof (testimony) of that.
You know that I tested God before committing to this religion? I was always asking for stuff and getting what I asked for or better.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 26, 2014, 02:34:22 PM
... and it goes against the clear teaching in the Epistles, that the elders should gather round the sick person, anoint him with oil, and pray over him. This appears to be a clear winning point of evidence for god - if it works...
So, I take it Luk, this doesn't actually work and so your god doesn't do what it is clear from the bible he said he would - to grant prayers prayed through Jesus[1].
 1. and it was Jesus who said he would too!
It works, we have proof (testimony) of that.
You know that I tested God before committing to this religion? I was always asking for stuff and getting what I asked for or better.

It works, does it? Really? Why are our hospitals full of patients then? Why are children dying of incurable diseases then?

What you mean is that, very rarely, some people who pray or who are prayed for go into remission or show some improvement in their condition. However the numbers are so small that a sample size it is too little to make any conclusions. Also, we only have a person's word that they prayed to this or that god or saint and, due the immense interest that might be taken them if, for example, they said they prayed to a recently deceased pope, we cannot rule out an invention there. Even then, the conclusion is open as there is no direct evidence that anything other than the human body is involved in what happens. That we don't understand how it happens is no reason to ascribe an event to some celestial being[2] without any evidence of their involvement.

Try again here as, if these rare events are really a god helping out, what you are actually saying is that the vast majority of people praying for help are ignored. Not great publicty for your god I'd say!
 2. How many things were ascribed to god at one time - weather events, volcanoes, thunder and lightning, plagues?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 26, 2014, 02:50:49 PM
I was always asking for stuff and getting what I asked for or better.

Well, aren't you God's 2nd favorite son? It must make you feel pretty special knowing that He repeatedly catered to your needs (preventing you from stubbing your toe and such).

You know? You should definitely go write a book and do the talk show circuit to share your amazing track record with all of those other Christians who have "asked for stuff"... you know, piddly-ass things like curing their child of cancer or praying that their loved one will be found alive after a plane crash... but to no avail. I am sure they are all dying to learn the secret to your success.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: eh! on May 26, 2014, 02:58:11 PM
Luk why don't you ask god to help you write an intelligent post.


better yet get god to write one or is the immaterial god of your mind posting through you.


cause a miracle on this board.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 26, 2014, 04:05:20 PM
Try again here as, if these rare events are really a god helping out, what you are actually saying is that the vast majority of people praying for help are ignored. Not great publicty for your god I'd say!
The vast majority of people praying for help are NOT ignored.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: nogodsforme on May 26, 2014, 04:12:07 PM
Okay, then if god is not ignoring people, it should not be that hard for god to concentrate on the nearest children's hospital and immediately cure all the babies there of amputations, cancer, severe burns and AIDS.

If indeed god gives people what they ask for, or even better, we would expect to see all the people under 18 within a thousand mile radius of a prayer cured of those conditions. Plus all of their families will find enough money in their bank accounts to cover all the medical expenses incurred before the healing. How about a ward full of soldiers suffering with brain trauma and missing limbs wakes up on Memorial Day to find they are all completely restored to normal-- because of the prayers of Christians!

With the 2 billion members of your faith worldwide praying all the time, and more converting every year, why have we never seen anything like that happening?

One person with cancer who has been undergoing chemo goes into remission and gets better--while the five others in the same ward die. One child with severe burns survives-- with massive medical intervention and treatment-- while the other three kids burned in the same fire die. Only a random one-shot miracle here and there, like an afterthought, and never any amputees. Never any people with severe brain damage. Never any folks with dementia.
 
We don't even have to look at incurable conditions. All over the world Christians pray for the sick, but without medical treatment the folks they pray for die from curable illnesses. Healing rates of treatable conditions are much higher in happily atheist Japan and happily atheist Denmark, where there are few Christians and almost nobody prays. Assuming of course, that being healed from illness is a good thing, medical care is doing much better than god.  Doesn't that seem strange, that god heals so few sick people who only pray, and heals so many who don't pray --even atheists--  when there is good medical care available?

Same track record as Islam, Scientology, Vodun and every other religion..... medical care has a much better chance of healing than any god. If that was not the case, we would not need medical science. We would only need prayer.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 26, 2014, 04:32:05 PM
Try again here as, if these rare events are really a god helping out, what you are actually saying is that the vast majority of people praying for help are ignored. Not great publicty for your god I'd say!
The vast majority of people praying for help are NOT ignored.

EVIDENCE?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 26, 2014, 05:14:40 PM
Try again here as, if these rare events are really a god helping out, what you are actually saying is that the vast majority of people praying for help are ignored. Not great publicty for your god I'd say!
The vast majority of people praying for help are NOT ignored.

EVIDENCE?
Testimonies. Do you want some links on the web?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 26, 2014, 05:26:24 PM
Okay, then if god is not ignoring people, it should not be that hard for god to concentrate on the nearest children's hospital and immediately cure all the babies there of amputations, cancer, severe burns and AIDS.

If indeed god gives people what they ask for, or even better, we would expect to see all the people under 18 within a thousand mile radius of a prayer cured of those conditions. Plus all of their families will find enough money in their bank accounts to cover all the medical expenses incurred before the healing. How about a ward full of soldiers suffering with brain trauma and missing limbs wakes up on Memorial Day to find they are all completely restored to normal-- because of the prayers of Christians!

With the 2 billion members of your faith worldwide praying all the time, and more converting every year, why have we never seen anything like that happening?

One person with cancer who has been undergoing chemo goes into remission and gets better--while the five others in the same ward die. One child with severe burns survives-- with massive medical intervention and treatment-- while the other three kids burned in the same fire die. Only a random one-shot miracle here and there, like an afterthought, and never any amputees. Never any people with severe brain damage. Never any folks with dementia.
 
We don't even have to look at incurable conditions. All over the world Christians pray for the sick, but without medical treatment the folks they pray for die from curable illnesses. Healing rates of treatable conditions are much higher in happily atheist Japan and happily atheist Denmark, where there are few Christians and almost nobody prays. Assuming of course, that being healed from illness is a good thing, medical care is doing much better than god.  Doesn't that seem strange, that god heals so few sick people who only pray, and heals so many who don't pray --even atheists--  when there is good medical care available?

Same track record as Islam, Scientology, Vodun and every other religion..... medical care has a much better chance of healing than any god. If that was not the case, we would not need medical science. We would only need prayer.
I would like you to read the following : "Why aren't my prayers answered?" (http://www.catholicdigest.com/articles/faith/praying/2008/09-01/why-doesnrsquot-god-answer-my-prayers) You should find the answers to your question in there.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: nogodsforme on May 26, 2014, 06:06:32 PM
Lukvance, every religion has testimonies.  Most people think that Scientology is completely bogus and made-up. But there are many people who give testimonies to the benefits of Scientology--ask John Travolta and Tom Cruise. If these famous, fairly intelligent, talented, wealthy people can be mistaken, so can anyone. Especially when most people don't understand statistics or probability.

Testimonies are very flimsy "evidence", anecdotal, not scientific or objective at all.[1] You cannot take testimonies as evidence of anything other than that people think something happened to them. People are self-selecting from their own memories and experiences, fitting in their imaginary god. Testimonies, even if accurate recollections of past events, are the most obvious example of "counting the hits, ignoring the misses."

Testimony #1: "I had the flu and prayed and I got better."
Most people get better from certain illnesses, whether they pray or not.

Testimony #2: "My dad had incurable fatal disease X. We prayed and he got better. He is all cured now, thanks to prayer."

How many people with that incurable fatal disease X were prayed for? How many got better?  If 1000 people with that disease prayed and 1 got better, and 999 got worse or even died, what does that evidence show? The people who died are not there to give their negative testimony, so you are left with the one-tenth of a percent who got better. That testimony is near worthless as evidence of the usefulness of prayer. 

Even more nebulous is when the testimony is not even about something concrete. A concrete prayer would be like "I prayed for my mother's dementia to improve to the point where she could leave the nursing home and live on her own within 3 months." That could be documented, ie the mother got better within 3 months to the point where she could move back into her apartment and live on her own again.

Nebulous testimony is "I prayed about my mother's dementia. She got worse and died. She is with god in heaven now. I am at peace because she is in a better place." So you prayed for your mother to get worse and die? That was what you wanted to happen? Is that the best outcome you could imagine? Of course not. You prayed a vague prayer, so that no matter what happened, it was god's will.

If anything that happens, even a catastrophe, is seen as god's will, there is absolutely no point in praying. All that is left for people to do is adjust their thinking to accept that whatever happens is what god wanted, a fatalistic attitude where everyone is just a helpless pawn in dictator god's universe. Whatever god does, it had to be the best possible thing. Very Islamic. Very Hindu.

BTW, If a prayer is vague enough, it will always be answered! "God's will be done." Guaranteed to be granted.

 1. One good example of self-selecting is in the Spike Lee movie Malcolm X, where a friend asked Malcolm to think of the white people he had encountered in his life. He remembered the bad, violent, criminal, prejudiced white people he knew. The friend said that showed that white people were devils and not to be trusted. Malcolm agreed. That became the basis of his testimony that white people were all bad. There might have been just as many good white people in his life, but they did not make as strong an impact. Negative memories often stand out. The handful of white people he could remember were bad, therefore.....
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 26, 2014, 06:15:52 PM
Testimonies are very flimsy "evidence", anecdotal, not scientific or objective at all.[1] You cannot take testimonies as evidence of anything other than that people think something happened to them. People are self-selecting from their own memories and experiences, fitting in their imaginary god. Testimonies, even if accurate recollections of past events, are the most obvious example of "counting the hits, ignoring the misses."
 1. One good example of self-selecting is in the Spike Lee movie Malcolm X, where a friend asked Malcolm to think of the white people he had encountered in his life. He remembered the bad, violent, criminal, prejudiced white people he knew. The friend said that showed that white people were devils and not to be trusted. Malcolm agreed. That became the basis of his testimony that white people were all bad. There might have been just as many good white people in his life, but they did not make as strong an impact. Negative memories often stand out. The handful of white people he could remember were bad, therefore.....
Still, it is the only way that you learn about love. Then, you experience it.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: nogodsforme on May 26, 2014, 06:39:42 PM
Testimonies are very flimsy "evidence", anecdotal, not scientific or objective at all.[1] You cannot take testimonies as evidence of anything other than that people think something happened to them. People are self-selecting from their own memories and experiences, fitting in their imaginary god. Testimonies, even if accurate recollections of past events, are the most obvious example of "counting the hits, ignoring the misses."
 1. One good example of self-selecting is in the Spike Lee movie Malcolm X, where a friend asked Malcolm to think of the white people he had encountered in his life. He remembered the bad, violent, criminal, prejudiced white people he knew. The friend said that showed that white people were devils and not to be trusted. Malcolm agreed. That became the basis of his testimony that white people were all bad. There might have been just as many good white people in his life, but they did not make as strong an impact. Negative memories often stand out. The handful of white people he could remember were bad, therefore.....
Still, it is the only way that you learn about love. Then, you experience it.

Way to avoid the main point. Aren't you the guy who wants people to stick to the point?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 26, 2014, 06:44:02 PM
Yes I do. I don't understand your point thou. Is it related to healing amputees? And the law of conservation?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: nogodsforme on May 26, 2014, 06:48:17 PM
The point was about the value of testimonies.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 26, 2014, 07:39:05 PM
The point was about the value of testimonies.
Oh. They have a great value. It through them that you learn about emotions...and God
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 26, 2014, 08:00:15 PM
And instead of just admitting that you can't provide the actual evidence you diverted the conversation to talking about "impossible standards".
I cannot provide more evidence than you could if you were to prove something of the same nature that you believe exist.

What "same nature"? I don't accept your claims. Do you not get that? All you keep doing is ASSERTING that "the immaterial" must exist (just like you just keep asserting that a God exists) ad hoc. And you have done so with no demonstrable evidence or sound reasoning to back it up whatsoever. So really, these arguments you keep making are really just diversions from the fact that you have absolutely no sound reason for believing these supernatural "immaterial" claims. Both of them are in the same boat. You haven't presented sufficient reason for thinking that either are real or actual ("God" or "the immaterial"). It's just more of your "Because I say so..." fallacies.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 26, 2014, 08:07:51 PM
The point was about the value of testimonies.
Oh. They have a great value. It through them that you learn about emotions...and God

No, sorry wrong again. It simply is not the case that we only learn about emotions from testimony. We have physical demonstrable evidence of the biological mechanisms which drive human psychological states (as well as neuroscience). And emotional states are demonstrated by more than just personal testimony. You are attempting another false comparison because we do not have such evidence for an alleged invisible person who created the physical universe or magically heals people. All of the evidence demonstrates that we are a conglomeration of atoms and electro-chemical inter-workings of physical substrates. Your argument is fallacious because it attempts to go beyond that evidence by positing an assumption which we do not need in order to explain the reality of human emotion. And thus, Occam's Razor shaves off your extra assumption.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 26, 2014, 08:29:26 PM
And instead of just admitting that you can't provide the actual evidence you diverted the conversation to talking about "impossible standards".
I cannot provide more evidence than you could if you were to prove something of the same nature that you believe exist.

What "same nature"? I don't accept your claims. Do you not get that? All you keep doing is ASSERTING that "the immaterial" must exist (just like you just keep asserting that a God exists) ad hoc. And you have done so with no demonstrable evidence or sound reasoning to back it up whatsoever. So really, these arguments you keep making are really just diversions from the fact that you have absolutely no sound reason for believing these supernatural "immaterial" claims. Both of them are in the same boat. You haven't presented sufficient reason for thinking that either are real or actual ("God" or "the immaterial"). It's just more of your "Because I say so..." fallacies.
I gave you as much evidence as possible. You don't want to recognize them.
I'm telling you, it's like you are asking for me to prove that 1+1= 2 without using numbers or mathematics. It's impossible.
You can't do it. I can't do it. No one can do it.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on May 26, 2014, 09:07:54 PM
Interesting how the only time most Christian acknowledge that other groups are Christians is when they want the numbers to be high. According to your fastest growing religions source, the only way Christianity has more adherents than Islam is by including every single possible type of Christian (Orthodox, Anglicans, JW's, Mormons, etc.) If you only count Catholics, Islam has you beat already. You have to buddy up with the Mormons to get to #1.
Ever heard of Sunni? Shia? Sufism? Ahmadiyya? Ibadi? Quranism? They are the Catholics of Islam. Do you want to rephrase your previous assertion?

No!

to be fair I think Catholisism probably is the biggest sects in the world. It does have a 500 year advantage over islam and it had the advent of being spread by the sword all over South America.
The FUCKERS("Christians")killed somewhere in the number around 40 million aboriginals in that 500 years too!!!!
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on May 26, 2014, 09:09:52 PM
First rebuttal. I wasn't trying to prove miracles existed.
Second rebuttal I already told you why I chose God.
I don't know what more to say...
You took up a few pages posting links to what you thought to be miracles
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 26, 2014, 09:58:58 PM
You took up a few pages posting links to what you thought to be miracles
Good monkeys. Good!
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Jesuis on May 27, 2014, 12:01:57 AM
The FUCKERS("Christians")killed somewhere in the number around 40 million aboriginals in that 500 years too!!!!
People who follow God do not kill. If you love me follow my commandments. If you are going to be logical the question would be why re you claiming to be a Christian Jew or Muslim if you are not following God's commandments. But being an atheist you really do not want to ask that question do you. This is what the theists do. Put humanity back on track to commit more and more human acts. So who is whispering that there is no God in the shadows to make and create doubt in the followers??
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 27, 2014, 02:15:18 AM
I would like you to read the following : "Why aren't my prayers answered?" (http://www.catholicdigest.com/articles/faith/praying/2008/09-01/why-doesnrsquot-god-answer-my-prayers) You should find the answers to your question in there.

Fine - you watch the video below

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video.htm

and then comment
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 27, 2014, 02:32:15 AM
Fine - you watch the video below
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video.htm
and then comment
First, the examples haven't been tested. Second. God won't act on people against their will. Third, God can act through you but not on physical objects. (beside in the rare cases of miracles) Fourth prayer, to be heard, must be said with a pure heart. Try it at home. You'll feel the difference.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 27, 2014, 03:14:53 AM
Fine - you watch the video below
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video.htm
and then comment
First, the examples haven't been tested. Second. God won't act on people against their will. Third, God can act through you but not on physical objects. (beside in the rare cases of miracles) Fourth prayer, to be heard, must be said with a pure heart. Try it at home. You'll feel the difference.

As an apologist for god you are no doing very well. Look, everyone knows that prayers seem to be either

1. Answered - something happens that more or less matches what they prayed for

OR

2. Not answered - in which case people make excuses as to why nothing happened

Now, what is quite clear is that prayer is sanctioned in the gospels and Jesus tells his disciples that whatever they as in his name the father will give it to them. The point of the video is to say that the same results happen whether one prays to a known deity or if one prays to a jug of milk. That's right - the same response.

You see when people say a prayer has been answered it can mean a number of things but usually it means that they prayed for something that was already likely to happen or at least something similar was likely to happen. It would also include cases where something unexpected happens and, because the chances of it happening were very low, it is seen as miraculous response to prayer whereas, in fact, it was still just chance[1]. To claim that a prayer has been answered we would need to show that the event was impossible to happen and show how a deity managed to pull it off, as he would have had to interfere with actual matter - a tough challenge[2].
 1. In the UK National Lottery the chances of getting all the number right is about 1 in 14 million, a frighteningly small chance, yet most weeks someone manages it. That's the sort of chances OI'm talking about.
 2. and one avoided by the Vatican who just chooses to pick unlikely events that can be related to people they want to promote to sainthood!
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: epidemic on May 27, 2014, 07:38:09 AM
The FUCKERS("Christians")killed somewhere in the number around 40 million aboriginals in that 500 years too!!!!
People who follow God do not kill. If you love me follow my commandments. If you are going to be logical the question would be why re you claiming to be a Christian Jew or Muslim if you are not following God's commandments. But being an atheist you really do not want to ask that question do you. This is what the theists do. Put humanity back on track to commit more and more human acts. So who is whispering that there is no God in the shadows to make and create doubt in the followers??

People who follow god do not kill, except when told by their religious leaders that god told them to kill every last man woman and male child in a city, or when told to kill muslims by the pope, or kill people for working on sunday or being fags.  But other than that absolute moratorium on killing except for sassing mom and dad that requires killing.  The new testament seems to give a reprieve to some of that but,,, I think religious leaders can argue that both ways when it suits them.  I think some of the problem is in the work KILL  in "though shalt not kill", I have heard it claimed that the kill is really more accurately translated as "Thou Shalt not Murder", meaning you should not kill with out a good reason.  Leaders can now use this to justify killing in the name of god. 

Look at the history of Christianity in the new world.  Do you really believe that the murderous reign of terror the spanish layed down on much of the America's in the name of god was done by people who did not think they were following god?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 27, 2014, 08:07:21 AM
If we are not careful we are getting to the 'One True Christiantm' argument. What is being argued is that those who have done killing were not true Christians because they  killed. This, of course, ignores the fact that it is highly probable that those who went on Crusades really thought they were doing the work of god. What those who took part wrote down certainly suggests this.

So we have a problem of how we define a Christian - is it

a. Some who follows all the rules of Christianity ( and hence does not kill people, war excepted)

OR

b. Someone who really believes his religion, really trusts its leader the pope, and follows the orders of the pope?

For the Crusades, I argue that the latter definition works best with the facts. We could argue that the actual fighters ought to have had better morals and refused to fight, but many were required by their lords to fight and had no choice. We also have to remember that morals were quite a bit different from today - slavery was fine with the church for example. Life was tough and short for most people and it is not fair to impose our morals on people who lived nearly 1,000 years ago.

However, the blame does fall on the popes of the day. They - leaders of the entire Western church and Christ's vicar- they should have known better and they should have known that killing was just plain wrong. If there was ever a group who saw worldly power as more important that keeping god's commandments, it was those popes.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: nogodsforme on May 27, 2014, 09:36:53 AM
Fine - you watch the video below
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video.htm
and then comment
First, the examples haven't been tested. Second. God won't act on people against their will. Third, God can act through you but not on physical objects. (beside in the rare cases of miracles) Fourth prayer, to be heard, must be said with a pure heart. Try it at home. You'll feel the difference.

God already knows-- before we are even born: who will fall for the wrong religions, who will have the wrong kind of "will", who will need physical evidence of his existence, and who will be receptive to him based on reported miracles and testimony. The lucky winners!

So the last group are the ones that god favors, and the rest are just toast. Didn't  god know that ahead of time? If he is not going to waste his time saving people "against their will", why make all those people in the first place?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 27, 2014, 10:51:52 AM
It gets worse, though, Nogodsforme!

Luk, think of all the souls your god implants into zygotes when well over 50% never even implant and are washed, unknown, down the loo. This god of your is so remarkably wasteful with souls in zygotes, all the children he lets die without ever knowing him and, of course, all the one mentioned above by Nogodsforme.

As is pointed out, god knows already, before a child is born what its fate will be and he knows who won't accept him based on the evidence yet he condemns them nontheless. He would only have to give a little help to the world to believe but, apparently, on a few generations ever got that. Call that moral?
 ,
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 27, 2014, 11:15:47 AM
apparently, on a few generations ever got that.

And all within a limited geographical area, too.

I guess "God" prefers to play to (relatively) small audiences.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 27, 2014, 11:58:08 AM
As an apologist for god you are no doing very well. Look, everyone knows that prayers seem to be either
1. Answered - something happens that more or less matches what they prayed for
OR
2. Not answered - in which case people make excuses as to why nothing happened
Isn't that the case with everything in the world? Not just prayer?

Quote
Now, what is quite clear is that prayer is sanctioned in the gospels and Jesus tells his disciples that whatever they as in his name the father will give it to them.
Yep!
Quote
The point of the video is to say that the same results happen whether one prays to a known deity or if one prays to a jug of milk. That's right - the same response.
That's the point of the video. But the video is a lie.
Quote
You see when people say a prayer has been answered it can mean a number of things but usually it means that they prayed for something that was already likely to happen or at least something similar was likely to happen.
Not in my case. Maybe in your case?
Quote
To claim that a prayer has been answered we would need to show that the event was impossible to happen and show how a deity managed to pull it off, as he would have had to interfere with actual matter - a tough challenge[1].
 1. and one avoided by the Vatican who just chooses to pick unlikely events that can be related to people they want to promote to sainthood!
You have some miracles that are not related to humans health.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 27, 2014, 12:12:56 PM
God already knows-- before we are even born: who will fall for the wrong religions, who will have the wrong kind of "will", who will need physical evidence of his existence, and who will be receptive to him based on reported miracles and testimony. The lucky winners!

So the last group are the ones that god favors, and the rest are just toast. Didn't  god know that ahead of time? If he is not going to waste his time saving people "against their will", why make all those people in the first place?
Yes, God knows all realities. But you don't know! You are free to chose him or not.
God does not favors any group...beside us humans (as opposed to animals, plants and rocks)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 27, 2014, 12:17:08 PM
That's the point of the video. But the video is a lie.

Perhaps a little more explanation of your point of view would help.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: epidemic on May 27, 2014, 12:39:34 PM
God already knows-- before we are even born: who will fall for the wrong religions, who will have the wrong kind of "will", who will need physical evidence of his existence, and who will be receptive to him based on reported miracles and testimony. The lucky winners!

So the last group are the ones that god favors, and the rest are just toast. Didn't  god know that ahead of time? If he is not going to waste his time saving people "against their will", why make all those people in the first place?
Yes, God knows all realities. But you don't know! You are free to chose him or not.
God does not favors any group...beside us humans (as opposed to animals, plants and rocks)

If it appears free to you is really irrelevant.  You do not have free will if your answer is pre-determined.  If I am created and set on a path that results unquestionably  in me being a non believer, the end result is that I have no choice (no Free will only the perception of it)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 27, 2014, 01:11:49 PM
If it appears free to you is really irrelevant.  You do not have free will if your answer is pre-determined.  If I am created and set on a path that results unquestionably  in me being a non believer, the end result is that I have no choice (no Free will only the perception of it)

No. My free will is of utmost importance for me. It is the main reason why I am Catholic and not any other religion.
Have you ever heard of alternate realities?
That's the point of the video. But the video is a lie.

Perhaps a little more explanation of your point of view would help.
The same results does NOT happen whether one prays to God (faithfully) or if one prays to a jug of milk (faithfully)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: epidemic on May 27, 2014, 01:27:42 PM
If it appears free to you is really irrelevant.  You do not have free will if your answer is pre-determined.  If I am created and set on a path that results unquestionably  in me being a non believer, the end result is that I have no choice (no Free will only the perception of it)

No. My free will is of utmost importance for me. It is the main reason why I am Catholic and not any other religion.
Have you ever heard of alternate realities

Have I heard of alternate realities?  Yes.  I have also heard of aliens visiting the Mayans, and I have also heard the theory that god is a super being who feeds off the souls of docile unthinking cattle.  I have also heard that none of us exist and that we are only a story in the mind of a lone super being who dreams us into his reality , our perceived existence is only a dream.  I have no proof of any of them.. 

Just because someone can come up with an idea does not make it fact or even reasonable.  So it is your contention that there is an entire universe spawned from your choice in underware color today?  Another universe spawned where I took the bypass rather than come up through town.

Even in the alternate reality, I think the same applies.  So in one reality I burn in hell for choice A) and in another reality I live out eternity in heaven for choice B).  Both of those realities are fortold by god and therefore negates your free will. 


IF God knows all and created me he knew that I would act thus and conclude he was false and in reality B and therefore I had no choice.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 27, 2014, 01:35:27 PM
That's the point of the video. But the video is a lie.

Perhaps a little more explanation of your point of view would help.
The same results does NOT happen whether one prays to God (faithfully) or if one prays to a jug of milk (faithfully)

Well, if you say so. Show us this is so. Pray tonight for all children with cancer to be cured - a completely selfless prayer that everyone on this board would agree with. Pray for it to happen and make the world a better place. You'd also win as converts everyone on this board I would think.

So, how about it?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 27, 2014, 01:48:04 PM
Well, if you say so. Show us this is so. Pray tonight for all children with cancer to be cured - a completely selfless prayer that everyone on this board would agree with. Pray for it to happen and make the world a better place. You'd also win as converts everyone on this board I would think.

So, how about it?

He still needs to pray to his concept of "God" to get my telephone number... brb. Phone's ringing.










Wrong number. :angel:
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 27, 2014, 04:06:53 PM
IF God knows all and created me he knew that I would act thus and conclude he was false and in reality B and therefore I had no choice.
Why? He knew you had a choice. A) I believe B) I don't believe. You can chose either. Even now! What prevent you to make the choice freely?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 27, 2014, 04:11:29 PM
Pray tonight for all children with cancer to be cured - a completely selfless prayer that everyone on this board would agree with. Pray for it to happen and make the world a better place. You'd also win as converts everyone on this board I would think.
So, how about it?
Since God don't force his will into us, I cannot force my will unto others using prayer. Do you understand?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 27, 2014, 04:30:36 PM
Pray tonight for all children with cancer to be cured - a completely selfless prayer that everyone on this board would agree with. Pray for it to happen and make the world a better place. You'd also win as converts everyone on this board I would think.
So, how about it?
Since God don't force his will into us, I cannot force my will unto others using prayer. Do you understand?

Not in slightest, sorry. Your first statement, "God don't force his will into us" is something for which you have  nothing to go on except that someone made it up to account for problems with god not showing up.

Secondly, what are you saying? You are saying that you could not ask god to heal children with cancer because "I cannot force my will unto others using prayer." I am more or less speechless! Really I am! I just don't know what to say. I can't imagine many people in this entire world who would do anything they had in their power to help heal children with cancer and yet you say you can't do it! really? the children would only know they got better and the parents would only know that too, They would not know the cause of the healing which could arise, in each case, from natural processes - remissions in the medical terminology. Your god would not get into trouble for stopping free will and neither would you.

So, I can only think of a couple of reasons you won't try this -

1. Because you are, really cold hearted and callous towards children which I hope is not the case

OR

2. You know such a prayer won't work because you think prayer is really only for helping with thoughts and not for actual materiel things and yet your church thinks god heals people...

Of course, many of the parents and relatives of children with cancer will have been praying hard since the diagnosis and, in most cases, the result will be the child dies or the doctors manage to cure the disease through science. You could help these people with your prayers. Can you really refuse?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 27, 2014, 06:31:56 PM
Your first statement, "God don't force his will into us" is something for which you have nothing to go on except that someone made it up to account for problems with god not showing up.
It is way more than you will ever have against it.

Quote
Secondly, what are you saying? You are saying that you could not ask god to heal children with cancer because "I cannot force my will unto others using prayer." I am more or less speechless! Really I am! I just don't know what to say.
Then don't say anything and move on.
Quote
you say you can't do it! really?
Yes, really.
Quote
the children would only know they got better and the parents would only know that too, They would not know the cause of the healing which could arise, in each case, from natural processes - remissions in the medical terminology. Your god would not get into trouble for stopping free will and neither would you.
and the kid will grow up to be Hitler. Nice eh?
Hypothetical cases. Is that all you have? I have real cases that really happen in real life and kids who were cured of cancer because of God...real kids.

Quote
So, I can only think of a couple of reasons you won't try this -
Really? Think more. Anyway the reason have already be given why I won't try it. If you want to invent other reasons, that's your problem. But they are just inventions, nothing real.

Quote
You could help these people with your prayers. Can you really refuse?
Hey, you know what, I am helping them with my prayer. But not the way you want it. The only way I can.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 27, 2014, 06:42:14 PM
Since God don't force his will into us, I cannot force my will unto others using prayer. Do you understand?
If people can't understand this phrase...I don't know, ask me more question about it. I might be able to enlighten you. I know my English isn't that good but it is a pretty easy phrase to understand.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Nam on May 27, 2014, 08:41:21 PM
Since God don't force his will into us, I cannot force my will unto others using prayer. Do you understand?
If people can't understand this phrase...I don't know, ask me more question about it. I might be able to enlighten you. I know my English isn't that good but it is a pretty easy phrase to understand.

"doesn't" not "don't", moron.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: nogodsforme on May 27, 2014, 09:10:54 PM
Since God don't force his will into us, I cannot force my will unto others using prayer. Do you understand?
If people can't understand this phrase...I don't know, ask me more question about it. I might be able to enlighten you. I know my English isn't that good but it is a pretty easy phrase to understand.

So prayer doesn't do anything unless all the "wills" and stars and planets are perfectly aligned. Got it. If a parent prays for their baby to be cured of malaria and the baby dies, well, it must have been that the baby's "will" would be violated. The parent and god can't force their "will" onto that baby. Of course, if there is a doctor with the right medicine available, nobody cares about anyone's "will". No prayers needed and the baby survives.

Starting to sound kinda like praying to a milk carton. The milk carton won't force its "will" on anyone, either.  :P
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 27, 2014, 09:21:14 PM
So prayer doesn't do anything unless all the "wills" and stars and planets are perfectly aligned. Got it. If a parent prays for their baby to be cured of malaria and the baby dies, well, it must have been that the baby's "will" would be violated.
Don't forget that it could also have been Aiden Jasper's will that would have been violated.  You know, he was the guy that stole $25 from the hospital cafeteria cash register, causing an extended recount session with most of the cafeteria staff, which distracted Cindy Haly from the chocking hazard of the doctor that was going to diagnose the baby.

Quote
The parent and god can't force their "will" onto that baby. Of course, if there is a doctor with the right medicine available, nobody cares about anyone's "will". No prayers needed and the baby survives.
But that's when everyone in the entirety of all realities[1] wanted the baby to be cured.  It's true because math and love.

Quote
Starting to sound kinda like praying to a milk carton. The milk carton won't force its "will" on anyone, either.  :P
But if you want to see the milk carton, it won't run and hide.  Damn milk carton violating your free will to not see it.
 1. I dunno - Lukvance seems to have knowledge of alternate realities.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on May 28, 2014, 12:12:40 AM
God already knows-- before we are even born: who will fall for the wrong religions, who will have the wrong kind of "will", who will need physical evidence of his existence, and who will be receptive to him based on reported miracles and testimony. The lucky winners!

So the last group are the ones that god favors, and the rest are just toast. Didn't  god know that ahead of time? If he is not going to waste his time saving people "against their will", why make all those people in the first place?
Yes, God knows all realities. But you don't know! You are free to chose him or not.
God does not favors any group...beside us humans (as opposed to animals, plants and rocks)
How do you dismiss the fact that in several instances in the Bible,God orders his followers to kill,leaving future generations to interpret killing certain groups of people to be OK? The people used the passages in the Bible where God commands killing as justification to kill without guilt or thought....or how would you explain the killing of the "savages"?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on May 28, 2014, 12:14:30 AM
The FUCKERS("Christians")killed somewhere in the number around 40 million aboriginals in that 500 years too!!!!
People who follow God do not kill. If you love me follow my commandments. If you are going to be logical the question would be why re you claiming to be a Christian Jew or Muslim if you are not following God's commandments. But being an atheist you really do not want to ask that question do you. This is what the theists do. Put humanity back on track to commit more and more human acts. So who is whispering that there is no God in the shadows to make and create doubt in the followers??
God commands his followers on several occasions in the Bible to KILL.try again!
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on May 28, 2014, 12:17:38 AM
Since God don't force his will into us, I cannot force my will unto others using prayer. Do you understand?
If people can't understand this phrase...I don't know, ask me more question about it. I might be able to enlighten you. I know my English isn't that good but it is a pretty easy phrase to understand.
So a healing prayer for others is also useless,or is it just praying you get smarter that wont work?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Astreja on May 28, 2014, 12:47:30 AM
Even in the alternate reality, I think the same applies.  So in one reality I burn in hell for choice A) and in another reality I live out eternity in heaven for choice B).  Both of those realities are fortold by god and therefore negates your free will.

I agree -- The multiverse hypothesis just spreads divine determinism over larger terrain, rather than confining it to a single universe.

And how do we know that the gods themselves aren't also the product of a deterministic reality?   Unless there's a mechanism -- Or more precisely a non-mechanism -- by which cause and effect can be sidestepped and unpredictable multiple effects created from exactly the same causal foundation, "free will" is just a pretty myth that creates the illusion of independence from the machine.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 28, 2014, 01:23:28 AM
How do you dismiss the fact that in several instances in the Bible,God orders his followers to kill,leaving future generations to interpret killing certain groups of people to be OK? The people used the passages in the Bible where God commands killing as justification to kill without guilt or thought....or how would you explain the killing of the "savages"?
Where in the Gospel does he ask people to kill? I remember Jesus giving back the ear and scolding Peter who attacked the Roman...quite the opposite of what you are saying.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 28, 2014, 01:24:39 AM
And instead of just admitting that you can't provide the actual evidence you diverted the conversation to talking about "impossible standards".
I cannot provide more evidence than you could if you were to prove something of the same nature that you believe exist.

What "same nature"? I don't accept your claims. Do you not get that? All you keep doing is ASSERTING that "the immaterial" must exist (just like you just keep asserting that a God exists) ad hoc. And you have done so with no demonstrable evidence or sound reasoning to back it up whatsoever. So really, these arguments you keep making are really just diversions from the fact that you have absolutely no sound reason for believing these supernatural "immaterial" claims. Both of them are in the same boat. You haven't presented sufficient reason for thinking that either are real or actual ("God" or "the immaterial"). It's just more of your "Because I say so..." fallacies.
I gave you as much evidence as possible. You don't want to recognize them.
I'm telling you, it's like you are asking for me to prove that 1+1= 2 without using numbers or mathematics. It's impossible.
You can't do it. I can't do it. No one can do it.

You just presented another false analogy (a logical fallacy). The fact that we use our language as a tool to aid in living life in the world (i.e. - one plus one makes two) has absolutely nothing to do with demonstrating that an invisible person exists "out there somewhere" independently of pure human thought. You keep trying to bring up these false analogies and they don't work b/c you are not comparing apples to apples. By these false analogies you are engaging in faulty and logically fallacious reasoning. And as such your arguments should be abandoned and/or amended.

Like I said before, you have not presented evidence for a "God", "miracles", OR "numbers" existing independently of human thought. Nor have you given a coherent definition of those first two terms. You just keep asserting.

I will say this though. Thank you for admitting that you can't do it - that you cannot provide the evidence that is sufficient to justify belief in miracles, a God, or the supernatural. So the question then becomes: Why are you believing these claims when you have no sound reason or evidence to go on? It's time to rethink your beliefs.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 28, 2014, 01:25:37 AM
So a healing prayer for others is also useless,or is it just praying you get smarter that wont work?
There is no such thing as "healing prayer". Praying for the sick is not useless. Generally praying for others is a proof that you care about them.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 28, 2014, 01:29:13 AM
Why are you believing these claims when you have no sound reason or evidence to go on? It's time to rethink your beliefs.
The evidence I gave you are sound and reasonable for most of humanity. You just said "no" to them "because, no". Maybe it's time for you to rethink YOUR beliefs.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 28, 2014, 02:31:50 AM
So a healing prayer for others is also useless,or is it just praying you get smarter that wont work?
There is no such thing as "healing prayer". Praying for the sick is not useless. Generally praying for others is a proof that you care about them.

Ah, I see. So prayer is good to show you love people - it is the least you could do I suppose. I guess that's why you couldn't pray for all children with cancer to be cured. You couldn't even mange the least you could do.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 28, 2014, 02:39:02 AM
Why are you believing these claims when you have no sound reason or evidence to go on? It's time to rethink your beliefs.
The evidence I gave you are sound and reasonable for most of humanity. You just said "no" to them "because, no". Maybe it's time for you to rethink YOUR beliefs.

Well, maybe you should too. What you have told us is -

a. An ancient book with no indication of any identifiable authors

b. The tradition of your church - based on a. and including ideas from a very motley collection of popes  - they weren't all as nice or as holy as the present one remember.

c. Some philosophical arguments from Anselm which are all very well but their premises are rather carefully chosen to get the required result and without checking the real world.

d. Claims of miracles - effectively things that could not be explained at the time they happened and which therefore get assigned to a god despite the fact that an explanation could arise in the future (don't forget people thought there was a god throwing thunderbolts at one time.)

These are not going to convince anyone of anything really. If that is all you have, you are, I'm sorry to say, a lost cause since no one is convinced by your arguments or your refusal to pray for the removal of child cancer. Even if you god existed, he'd be a pretty cruel one who let children die like that!
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 28, 2014, 04:06:10 AM
Why are you believing these claims when you have no sound reason or evidence to go on? It's time to rethink your beliefs.
The evidence I gave you are sound and reasonable for most of humanity. You just said "no" to them "because, no". Maybe it's time for you to rethink YOUR beliefs.

You just committed yet another logical fallacy (argumentum ad populum). Go look it up! You appealed the mere amount of people believing something, as if that carries any weight in a discussion about what is logical or true. It doesn't! I don't care if 99% of people thought that irrational arguments were rational. They still would be wrong! Arguments stand or fall on their own merits, not on how many people accept them. So once again (over and over and over) you are irrational and refuse to amend your irrational thinking. So too, I have cited the specific fallacies you keep attempting and why they are fallacious. So you are wrong again, because I did not say, "No because no" without reason. Perhaps you should go take an elementary course is logic so you can better see your fallacious reasoning because your extreme amount of arrogance is 1) your unwillingness to address the specific rebuttals to your fallacious arguments and 2) your unwillingness to amend your arguments when they have been demonstrated as fallacious. 
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: median on May 28, 2014, 04:11:13 AM
(http://cutelypoisoned.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/if-you-could-reason-wth-religious-people-there-would-be-no-religious-people-house-500x375.jpg)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: screwtape on May 28, 2014, 07:52:35 AM
Hypothetical cases. Is that all you have? I have real cases that really happen in real life and kids who were cured of cancer because of God...real kids.

You don't.  At best you have people who are in remission for unknown reasons.  You cannot tell god did it because god did not walk up to the hospital and do surgery in front of everyone's eyes.  No.  God stayed invisible and some people seem to have gotten better, and a bunch of religious nuts attributed it to their god.  At best, all you have is faith, which is just wishful thinking.



Since God don't force his will into us, I cannot force my will unto others using prayer.

I understand what you mean.  But I think you make a mistake - or contradict yourself - when you say god does not force his will on us.  You said god works through people.  How is that not forcing his will on them?  If they are doing what they were going to do anyway, that is not working through people.  That is a coincidence.  Why does god get credit for that? 
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 28, 2014, 08:16:27 AM
How do you dismiss the fact that in several instances in the Bible,God orders his followers to kill,leaving future generations to interpret killing certain groups of people to be OK? The people used the passages in the Bible where God commands killing as justification to kill without guilt or thought....or how would you explain the killing of the "savages"?
Where in the Gospel does he ask people to kill? I remember Jesus giving back the ear and scolding Peter who attacked the Roman...quite the opposite of what you are saying.

Mostly from http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm:
---------------------------------------------------------------
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be purged from Israel.  (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

You should not let a sorceress live.  (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."  (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death.  (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.  (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord."  When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.  (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods.  In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully.  If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.  Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it.  Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God.  That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt.  Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction.  Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you.  He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors.  "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."  (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants.  (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked.  Show no mercy; have no pity!  Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children.  But do not touch anyone with the mark.  Begin your task right here at the Temple."  So they began by killing the seventy leaders.  "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded.  "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill!  Go!"  So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."  (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD.  "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms.  With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer.  With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens.  With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers.  "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD.  "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth!  I am your enemy," says the LORD.  "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights.  When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble.  You will be desolate forever.  Even your stones will never again be used for building.  You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD.  (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword.  Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes.  Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes.  For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off.  The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows.  They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.  (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it.  They completely destroyed everything in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys – everything.  (Joshua 6:20-21 NLT)

"All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came.  He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors."  The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day.  Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing."  (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel."  So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor.  Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle.  When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly.  Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach.  So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died.  (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: screwtape on May 28, 2014, 09:07:54 AM
Where in the Gospel does he ask people to kill?

The gospels are not the whole story.  If they were, the rest of the bible would not be in the bible.
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: wheels5894 on May 28, 2014, 09:44:19 AM
Where in the Gospel does he ask people to kill?

The gospels are not the whole story.  If they were, the rest of the bible would not be in the bible.

Remember, Luk, Jesus was first a foremost a believing Jew who thought the OT was actually true. Remember the transfiguration for example. So if the OT id accepted as true by Jesus, why would you not accept it in the same way. If you don't you are not following Jesus, you are following Luk.

It's a bit tough that the OT has some fairly horrible bits but is it for mortal men to redact god's word to make it palatable for today's morals'?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: nogodsforme on May 28, 2014, 10:42:29 AM
Call UPS for a pickup. I think we have gotten Lukvance pretty much boxed up here.  Only decision left is where to deliver him....so we can finally be free.

I guess it's time for a song by one of my favorite fabulous godless homosexuals, Stephen Schwartz-- the creator of Godspell and, of course,  Prince of Egypt. Enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Kr4aCUYg8A
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 28, 2014, 06:59:11 PM
I guess that's why you couldn't pray for all children with cancer to be cured. You couldn't even mange the least you could do.
What part of "Praying for the sick is not useless" is so vague that you would come to such a conclusion?
Title: Re: Why can't/wont god heal amputees?
Post by: Lukvance on May 28, 2014, 07:41:46 PM
You don't.  At best you have people who are in remission for unknown reasons.  You cannot tell god did it because god did not walk up to the hospital and do surgery in front of everyone's eyes.  No.  God stayed invisible and some people seem to have gotten better, and a bunch of religious nuts attributed it to their god.  At best, all you have is faith, which is just wishful thinking.

Why would God need to "walk up to the hospital and do surgery in front of everyone'