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Main Discussion Zone => The Shelter => Topic started by: junebug72 on December 28, 2013, 08:11:20 AM

Title: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on December 28, 2013, 08:11:20 AM
Good morning and thanks for reading!!! :)

First let me give credit to all the people here for the inspiration!

If the Big Bang is possible then it seems to me it is also possible that a supreme being,God, could have been produced from there as well!

My definition of condensed means more powerful and stronger!  All the matter/elements needed to create life was right there inside that very, very, very...highly condensed object.

It is possible! 
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: jetson on December 28, 2013, 09:11:51 AM
It may be possible, but do you believe that the result of this "possibility", was the creation of the YHWH character written about in the Bible?  I mean, did the Big Bang literally create a supreme being that needed to smell burnt animal flesh, and had to flood this particular planet because the humans displeased him?  Was all of this really about a supreme being, and the planet earth?  Keep in mind, the earth as a planet is only 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is almost 14 billion years old.  What was YHWH doing for the first 9 billion years?
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Chronos on December 28, 2013, 11:21:16 AM
If the Big Bang is possible then it seems to me it is also possible that a supreme being,God, could have been produced from there as well!

"God" could not have created the universe if the universe created "him".

Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on December 29, 2013, 09:24:44 AM
It may be possible, but do you believe that the result of this "possibility", was the creation of the YHWH character written about in the Bible?  I mean, did the Big Bang literally create a supreme being that needed to smell burnt animal flesh, and had to flood this particular planet because the humans displeased him?  Was all of this really about a supreme being, and the planet earth?  Keep in mind, the earth as a planet is only 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is almost 14 billion years old.  What was YHWH doing for the first 9 billion years?

Oh hell no!  I don't believe the bible! 

I could only speculate about what God might have been doing for those 4.5 billion years.  Perhaps discovering and learning how things live.

Chronos,

I am not claiming that God created the universe.  My possibility is that God made it possible for us to survive/thrive in an extremely hostile environment; the universe; the planet. 

I absolutely believe we control our own destinies! 
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Chronos on December 29, 2013, 09:32:56 AM
Chronos,

I am not claiming that God created the universe.  My possibility is that God made it possible for us to survive/thrive in an extremely hostile environment; the universe; the planet. 

I absolutely believe we control our own destinies!

If god did not create the universe, then god is not all-powerful. At best he can only be a demi-god. If he is merely a demi-god then he is a lesser god and we must ask who/what created the universe and worship that god as the creator.

Making god a lesser god by not having him create the universe totally destroys the concept of god.

Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on December 30, 2013, 12:42:02 AM
Chronos,

I am not claiming that God created the universe.  My possibility is that God made it possible for us to survive/thrive in an extremely hostile environment; the universe; the planet. 

I absolutely believe we control our own destinies!

If god did not create the universe, then god is not all-powerful. At best he can only be a demi-god. If he is merely a demi-god then he is a lesser god and we must ask who/what created the universe and worship that god as the creator.

Making god a lesser god by not having him create the universe totally destroys the concept of god.

No it doesn't Chronos.  It is not creating the universe that makes God superior.  God doesn't need to be stronger than the universe but have complete knowledge of it.

I do not worship.  I try to be thankful for life.  But I do not worship.  I am still alive.  Still getting blessing in my lesbian life.

I don't even believe God cares if we worship.  I think God  cares a lot more that we work together with kindness and love to eliminate poverty and violence on earth.   Geese I've even said on here before that God don't care if you believe, if you're gay, poor or black.  Just be kind to others.  That's all it would take to change the world!!! :laugh:


How can we know that while "God" was in this condensed matter there wasn't some programming going on?  And then Bang life began...
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 30, 2013, 01:21:32 AM
Junebug

The question is not "What is possible?" The question is "How likely is it that we are going to guess the right question?"

Anyone can take what they hope might be true, combine it with a small or large amount of science, and speculate their little hearts out. As long as one doesn't violate common sense ( You know, we could solve the homeless problem by sending poor people to live on the sun, where they wouldn't have heating bills), anything guessed can be labeled as plausible, because not only do we not know enough to figure out if it might be true, we also don't know enough to dismiss it as false.

So the real question is "How much of our valuable and limited time on earth should be taken up by conjecture, when the evidence for something is currently zero?" If you value such thought exercises, then it has value to you. But even that doesn't lend legitimacy to any idea that is purely speculative.

All of this is a long way of saying "I don't know, and I have no idea how we could know". I tend to think that since the early universe was made up of the simplest elements, and that it took the slow formation and destruction of stars, over billions of years, to create things like heavier elements and the level of complexity that we now enjoy, it seems less likely than usual that the Big Bang and the early universe created anything as complex as a god.

And if I'm wrong, who will tell me? Probably not even the god, should he be real. 

Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Chronos on December 30, 2013, 02:14:34 AM
No it doesn't Chronos.  It is not creating the universe that makes God superior.  God doesn't need to be stronger than the universe but have complete knowledge of it.

Since you are creating your god in the way you want him to be, why bother discussing him? Your god only exists in your version of reality.

Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: wheels5894 on December 30, 2013, 08:39:11 AM
Parking PLaces is right. The question of possibility is, in principle, one that could apply to almost any idea we might have and it might, possibly, be true. Thus for all the gods for whom we know names there might be actual powerful gods... there might and we can't rule it out.

However, if we look at how likely it is that any of the gods really exist we are probably going to have to say that the chnaces are very low. There is no the slightest evidence of the action of any gods - ever - so even if there is the tiniest possibilty we can still say it is so unlikely that it is not worth mentioning and considering.

Thus with the Big Bang. Science is progressing with its understanding of this event and, some time, we are going to have a theory to explain what went on. Right now we do not know but it is, quite frankly, pointless to specualte or to stick a god into the space made by our lack of knowledge. It is far better to wait and see. Besides which, such a god that could have created the Big Bang is far more likely to be a deist sort - you know the god that starts thde universe and goes on lunch-break leaving the universe to look after itself.
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Graybeard on December 30, 2013, 08:49:40 AM
I could only speculate about what God might have been doing for those 4.5 billion years.  Perhaps discovering and learning how things live.
I realise that you are merely speculating, but, if there were no living things, how would he learn about them? ; )
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on December 30, 2013, 12:05:30 PM
Junebug

The question is not "What is possible?" The question is "How likely is it that we are going to guess the right question?"

Anyone can take what they hope might be true, combine it with a small or large amount of science, and speculate their little hearts out. As long as one doesn't violate common sense ( You know, we could solve the homeless problem by sending poor people to live on the sun, where they wouldn't have heating bills), anything guessed can be labeled as plausible, because not only do we not know enough to figure out if it might be true, we also don't know enough to dismiss it as false.

So the real question is "How much of our valuable and limited time on earth should be taken up by conjecture, when the evidence for something is currently zero?" If you value such thought exercises, then it has value to you. But even that doesn't lend legitimacy to any idea that is purely speculative.

All of this is a long way of saying "I don't know, and I have no idea how we could know". I tend to think that since the early universe was made up of the simplest elements, and that it took the slow formation and destruction of stars, over billions of years, to create things like heavier elements and the level of complexity that we now enjoy, it seems less likely than usual that the Big Bang and the early universe created anything as complex as a god.

And if I'm wrong, who will tell me? Probably not even the god, should he be real.

My theory does not defy common sense.  I believe if it could create our universe it would have been more than capable of creating a God capable of creating us. 

I look at it like this.  Y'all are stuck with the religious idea of God.  Religions have made you hate the very idea of such a god.  Did me the same way.  Once I realized religions were man made I revisited the idea of God and found that life was more bearable with the non-religious God in it. 
When nothing else would help Love Lifted Me! 

No God's not going to interfere with your decision making.  You are free to believe what you want.  You are responsible for your beliefs. 

If the evidence is zero then why are we here?  The complexity of life is plenty of evidence.  Our precise location to the sun, our protective atmosphere,
all evidence of a Creator.
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on December 30, 2013, 12:20:45 PM
No it doesn't Chronos.  It is not creating the universe that makes God superior.  God doesn't need to be stronger than the universe but have complete knowledge of it.

Since you are creating your god in the way you want him to be, why bother discussing him? Your god only exists in your version of reality.

God has been around long before the junebug was even thought about.  There are many folks that believe as I do.  At least I don't want God to be jealous, egotistical, and vengeful like the religions do.  I am not trying to scare people but comfort them.  Atheism offers no comfort to my life and little hope for mankind.  God is not the problem people are!
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: wheels5894 on December 30, 2013, 12:26:30 PM

My theory does not defy common sense.  I believe if it could create our universe it would have been more than capable of creating a God capable of creating us. 

I look at it like this.  Y'all are stuck with the religious idea of God.  Religions have made you hate the very idea of such a god.  Did me the same way.  Once I realized religions were man made I revisited the idea of God and found that life was more bearable with the non-religious God in it. 
When nothing else would help Love Lifted Me! 

No God's not going to interfere with your decision making.  You are free to believe what you want.  You are responsible for your beliefs. 

I'm still not quite sure what you mean by a non-religious god. Especially when you say things like 'When nothing else would help Love Lifted Me!' it sounds like a religion - at least how a religious person would talk.

{quote]
If the evidence is zero then why are we here?  The complexity of life is plenty of evidence.  Our precise location to the sun, our protective atmosphere,
all evidence of a Creator.
[/quote]

These are deep questions but I would draw your attention to what was said earlier. What we need to ask is more ' what are the chances we are here?' Now some people would give you very long odds on us being here though, of course, the odds are very short since we are here, talking. In fact, due to this we know that the possibility is a reality.

The thing is that, supposing we are right about a generation of the universe purely based on physical forces, we would not be here if things were different. However, that's like winning a big lottery and saying that a god had to have guided you hand to choose the right numbers when, in fact, someone was bound to win at some stage so the only odd thing would have been that you won. Cosmology shows how the tiny speck of the Big bang expanded into the universe and evolution tells us how the complexity of life developed. The only gap is the formation of life and we ought to learn a lot more about this when the lander lands on the comet next year as it is expected that amino acids will be found. Amino acids are the building blocks of life and are predicted to form in space without any help. This would get us closer to seeing how life started.

Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Truth OT on December 30, 2013, 12:32:00 PM
My theory does not defy common sense.  I believe if it could create our universe it would have been more than capable of creating a God capable of creating us. 

I look at it like this.  Y'all are stuck with the religious idea of God.  Religions have made you hate the very idea of such a god.  Did me the same way.  Once I realized religions were man made I revisited the idea of God and found that life was more bearable with the non-religious God in it. 
When nothing else would help Love Lifted Me! 

No God's not going to interfere with your decision making.  You are free to believe what you want.  You are responsible for your beliefs. 

If the evidence is zero then why are we here?  The complexity of life is plenty of evidence.  Our precise location to the sun, our protective atmosphere,
all evidence of a Creator.

Why stop with "A" god, couldn't a whole species of "god-beings" have been birthed or perhaps have evolved over time to the point where the beings are knowledgeable enough about the universe and its working to create human types?
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on December 30, 2013, 12:39:28 PM
Parking PLaces is right. The question of possibility is, in principle, one that could apply to almost any idea we might have and it might, possibly, be true. Thus for all the gods for whom we know names there might be actual powerful gods... there might and we can't rule it out.

However, if we look at how likely it is that any of the gods really exist we are probably going to have to say that the chnaces are very low. There is no the slightest evidence of the action of any gods - ever - so even if there is the tiniest possibilty we can still say it is so unlikely that it is not worth mentioning and considering.

Thus with the Big Bang. Science is progressing with its understanding of this event and, some time, we are going to have a theory to explain what went on. Right now we do not know but it is, quite frankly, pointless to specualte or to stick a god into the space made by our lack of knowledge. It is far better to wait and see. Besides which, such a god that could have created the Big Bang is far more likely to be a deist sort - you know the god that starts thde universe and goes on lunch-break leaving the universe to look after itself.

I don't just see it as possible but very likely!  We have had a long time to figure this out Wheels and people are still believing. 

We are capable of taking care of ourselves are we not? 

If God is busy welcoming those whose life journey has ended, comforting the ones left behind, then God has not left us but has prepared a place for us among the stars!!! IMO of course.
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on December 30, 2013, 12:45:16 PM
My theory does not defy common sense.  I believe if it could create our universe it would have been more than capable of creating a God capable of creating us. 

I look at it like this.  Y'all are stuck with the religious idea of God.  Religions have made you hate the very idea of such a god.  Did me the same way.  Once I realized religions were man made I revisited the idea of God and found that life was more bearable with the non-religious God in it. 
When nothing else would help Love Lifted Me! 

No God's not going to interfere with your decision making.  You are free to believe what you want.  You are responsible for your beliefs. 

If the evidence is zero then why are we here?  The complexity of life is plenty of evidence.  Our precise location to the sun, our protective atmosphere,
all evidence of a Creator.

Why stop with "A" god, couldn't a whole species of "god-beings" have been birthed or perhaps have evolved over time to the point where the beings are knowledgeable enough about the universe and its working to create human types?

Good point Truth.  Maybe that's why there's so many ancient gods!!! ;) 
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on December 30, 2013, 12:57:43 PM
I could only speculate about what God might have been doing for those 4.5 billion years.  Perhaps discovering and learning how things live.
I realise that you are merely speculating, but, if there were no living things, how would he learn about them? ; )

What do most scientist do when contemplating a creation?  Take notes, start small, observe and learn?
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: wheels5894 on December 30, 2013, 01:05:49 PM
I could only speculate about what God might have been doing for those 4.5 billion years.  Perhaps discovering and learning how things live.
I realise that you are merely speculating, but, if there were no living things, how would he learn about them? ; )

What do most scientist do when contemplating a creation?  Take notes, start small, observe and learn?

Sorry, but cosmologists are really mathematicians in disguise. the job is all about mathematical modelling and comparing the results with what we know about reality. Did you know that much oif waht we have found out by observation was initially predictions from maths? Look at the Higgs Bosun for example.

As the work progresses and maths matches reality we know we are on the right course, winding time backwards towards the Big Bang.
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on December 30, 2013, 01:43:36 PM


These are deep questions but I would draw your attention to what was said earlier. What we need to ask is more ' what are the chances we are here?' Now some people would give you very long odds on us being here though, of course, the odds are very short since we are here, talking. In fact, due to this we know that the possibility is a reality.

The thing is that, supposing we are right about a generation of the universe purely based on physical forces, we would not be here if things were different. However, that's like winning a big lottery and saying that a god had to have guided you hand to choose the right numbers when, in fact, someone was bound to win at some stage so the only odd thing would have been that you won. Cosmology shows how the tiny speck of the Big bang expanded into the universe and evolution tells us how the complexity of life developed. The only gap is the formation of life and we ought to learn a lot more about this when the lander lands on the comet next year as it is expected that amino acids will be found. Amino acids are the building blocks of life and are predicted to form in space without any help. This would get us closer to seeing how life started.

Are amino acids not found already here on earth in very inhospitable places?  If amino acids are found they wouldn't be humans would they?  What I want to see is those amino acids turn themselves into millions of different complex life forms especially one that thinks and feels like we do.  Evolution does not explain complexity it explains thumbs and skin color, not complexity.  It does not explain our protective atmosphere or our precise location to the sun.  If it answered all the questions I'd bite but it doesn't it just makes more questions.  For instance, why are apes no longer evolving into humans?  They would move up the food chain quite substantially wouldn't they?

Y'all base every thing you believe on theory not proven fact yet you think I'm childish and naive for doing the same thing. Except God has proven God's existence to me because I have opened my heart and soul to it.  I've always lived by the motto don't knock it until you've tried it.  I have tried atheism and religion, I chose spiritualism. 

As far as the song some religious songs are glorious this is one of them.  I spent the first 13 years of my life in a fundie baptist church.  I do still love some of those hymns. ;)

There are more branches of science than cosmology.  Thanks for adding that thought.  My point was God was busy making plans.  I am positive mathematics was part of it.
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on December 30, 2013, 01:54:59 PM
What's the matter Dante cat got your tongue or don't you have access!!! lmao
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Graybeard on December 30, 2013, 04:40:17 PM
Are amino acids not found already here on earth in very inhospitable places?  If amino acids are found they wouldn't be humans would they?  What I want to see is those amino acids turn themselves into millions of different complex life forms especially one that thinks and feels like we do.
As it took several billion years for that to happen. How much time have you got?

Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on December 31, 2013, 08:40:36 AM
Witty response GB.  I like it.

It wouldn't take that long if it had help which is what I believe.  I believe it had to have some intelligent help from above, a men. lol on purpose ;)

I believe God took that stuff and made all the living creatures of the world!!!  Oh my I feel like dancing a jig right now!!!  I'm so happy, happy, happy!!!  They are called building blocks are they not; amino acids?  That means something to build with ha ha ha!!! 

I'm not laughing at you I promise I'm just happy to be alive and I want to share it with y'all!!! ;D  In fact I'm going to hug you right now.  Get ready for it...here it comes...(((hugs)))  now see that didn't hurt...felt good didn't it...it sure felt good to me...have a Happy day GB!!!

Sincerely,

JB






Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Chronos on December 31, 2013, 12:20:34 PM
My theory does not defy common sense.  I believe if it could create our universe it would have been more than capable of creating a God capable of creating us.

This is a circular reference. Since creation requires one thing to exist before another, like a parent creating a child, the child cannot in turn create the parent. In other words, the child cannot create something that existed before the child was created.

This is a basic issue of logic.


I look at it like this.  Y'all are stuck with the religious idea of God.  Religions have made you hate the very idea of such a god. 

This is incorrect. I do not hate god. I cannot hate something that doesn't exists. I don't hate religion, either, not in principle anyway. I do hate when religion causes Person A to require that Person B live by Person A's religion. I hate the way people use religion to diminish or ostracize others. I hate how people use religion as an excuse for not knowing facts and assuming that some sky daddy is going to come in to save them at the last minute.

In other words, I hate the lack of common sense, the lack of logic and the lack of personal liberty. Religion is not the only vehicle that fosters these things. Conspiracy theorists, the black helicopter crowd, the anti-vaccination parents, FOX News, etc ... are all like a religion that perpetuates stupidity and eschews facts. These things encourage people to remain in the dark, often in the same way that religion does.


Once I realized religions were man made I revisited the idea of God and found that life was more bearable with the non-religious God in it.   When nothing else would help Love Lifted Me!

As I stated previously, you are making god to fit your own liking, your own reality. This god does not exist anywhere else. Since you get to define whatever you think god is for your own purposes, the discussion of your god is rather pointless. It's like playing a football game in which the referee is always changing the rules.

To put it another way, it's like arguing with you about how much you love the color magenta instead of another color. It's a personal choice, not anything factual.


No God's not going to interfere with your decision making.  You are free to believe what you want.  You are responsible for your beliefs. 

If the evidence is zero then why are we here?  The complexity of life is plenty of evidence.  Our precise location to the sun, our protective atmosphere,
all evidence of a Creator.

The observable complexity of life is actually evidence of a lack of god. Even more so the consistency of the elements of the universe defies the interference of a god.

Our existence on this planet is a statistic, nothing more. Maybe that doesn't warm your heart but it actually inspires me. It makes life more precious than if it were granted by a god. There are likely millions of other planets in the galaxy that also offer the same scenario as earth but we don't know if they harbor life ... yet.

As well explained by Richard Dawkins, nothing in our universe points to the existence of a god or the participation of a god. Quite the opposite.

The only reason I bother to discuss whether a god exists is to counter the beliefs of others who assuredly think one does exists and that their god has told them what to do with or to the rest of us. It's completely delusional.


God has been around long before the junebug was even thought about.  There are many folks that believe as I do.  At least I don't want God to be jealous, egotistical, and vengeful like the religions do.  I am not trying to scare people but comfort them.  Atheism offers no comfort to my life and little hope for mankind.  God is not the problem people are!

But according to you, god created himself after he created the universe. How do you know that your god was around before you were? By your own explanation of the order of things, not only could you be god, you might have created god.

I do not think that there are many people who believe like you do -- insofar as god creating himself after he created the universe, or that the universe was created by some accident and then it created god for us ... I challenge you to find a significant number of people who believe these things. Regardless of whether a majority of people like to partake in a particular religion, the predominant thinking is that god created the universe and everything within it. What happened next is an obvious point of contention for most believers.

Let me clarify something for you: atheism doesn't offer anything to anyone. Atheism is precisely to be without religion. As a previous or quasi Christian, you are atheistic with respect to other religions, but I am just atheistic with respect to all of them. Since people are inspired from the things they see and think and their own internal desire to express themselves, a religion or a god have only been subjects of their creativity. Many people who were/are, more or less, atheists, have been inspired in various way to achieve various things: art, architecture, literature, engineering, scientific discoveries, etc.

While you feel you need a sense of god/religion in order to inspire you or comfort you, which is quite fine because that is your personal choice, it is wholly incorrect to say that atheism offers no comfort to your life. It was never supposed to. Atheism is not a something that offers something else to someone. Atheism is merely a state of being. As an atheist, I am inspired in many ways and I find comfort in many things -- I just don't credit the source of these things as "god". I see no evidence for a god and no point in crediting god for things that I did both good and bad.


Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on December 31, 2013, 01:41:30 PM
Quote
But according to you, god created himself after he created the universe. How do you know that your god was around before you were? By your own explanation of the order of things, not only could you be god, you might have created god.

Chronos that was a great read until I got to this part.  You misunderstand my theory.  I said basically that the Big Bang created God then God created us. 

I am compelled to say I am happy you have found peace.  So have I.  I find peace in believing there is something more.  I will not let them darn xtians take the dream of a beautiful after life away from me.  I want to spend eternity with the ones I love and I don't know if that's possible w/o a god.  I don't want forever on earth with an old broke down body.  I want paradise.  We Deserve it! (((hugs)))

Yea I shouldn't have said that about atheism.  It's better than religion.  I've also been told that here before.  My bad! ;) 

Have a happy happy new year big guy!!!

JB
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Chronos on January 01, 2014, 01:49:28 AM
Chronos that was a great read until I got to this part.  You misunderstand my theory.  I said basically that the Big Bang created God then God created us. 

The god that did not create everything, consequently, is not all that powerful. If god created us after the universe created him, then where does heaven lie? Outside the universe that created god? Can god get you into this heaven or not? What's the criteria? Is he in charge any longer?

I take more comfort in knowing that I will never again see those who left before me or those who leave after me. To speculate that the opposite is true is to engage totally in conjecture.


I find peace in believing there is something more.  I will not let them darn xtians take the dream of a beautiful after life away from me.

You wish to live in your own reality. That's fine as long as the rest of us don't have to live in your reality. We each can have one of our own.


Have a happy happy new year big guy!!!

May each new year be better than the last.
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on January 01, 2014, 08:30:40 AM
Chronos that was a great read until I got to this part.  You misunderstand my theory.  I said basically that the Big Bang created God then God created us. 

The god that did not create everything, consequently, is not all that powerful. If god created us after the universe created him, then where does heaven lie? Outside the universe that created god? Can god get you into this heaven or not? What's the criteria? Is he in charge any longer?

I take more comfort in knowing that I will never again see those who left before me or those who leave after me. To speculate that the opposite is true is to engage totally in conjecture.


I find peace in believing there is something more.  I will not let them darn xtians take the dream of a beautiful after life away from me.

You wish to live in your own reality. That's fine as long as the rest of us don't have to live in your reality. We each can have one of our own.


Have a happy happy new year big guy!!!

May each new year be better than the last.

Thanks for the well wishes. 

As far as reality goes we all live in each others reality do we not.  Beliefs and value systems effect our social lives.  If we lived in my dreams there would be no poverty or violence in this world.   I find it hard to believe that most of the people here/you do not want the same thing. 

When I see all the power there is in the universe I can easily see a powerful God.  Heaven lies beyond death.  I would have to be dead to answer that question.  If I didn't believe in heaven I could not take the heart breaks of death.  I am very sensitive you know ;)  The only requirement is to love one another.  As far as those that hurt others, I trust that God is merciful.

We, the human race, are in charge of our own destiny!
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Graybeard on January 01, 2014, 08:36:12 AM
I could only speculate about what God might have been doing for those 4.5 billion years.  Perhaps discovering and learning how things live.
I realise that you are merely speculating, but, if there were no living things, how would he learn about them? ; )

What do most scientist do when contemplating a creation?  Take notes, start small, observe and learn?
1. Well, gods are never scientists
2. How can you "take notes?" There is nothing to note until it is there.
3. The Bible shows a god that does not know anything about what he has created. Your god might. but then if you invent a god, that god can do anything you want, can't it?
4. If your thesis is correct, then has the god of creation left and gone on to do something else? Or, once having got his "train set" does he spend all day, every day playing with it?
5. You mean he started on viruses and worked his way up to dinosaurs and whales? If so, does this not mean that the god does not know everything?
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on January 01, 2014, 09:08:28 AM
I could only speculate about what God might have been doing for those 4.5 billion years.  Perhaps discovering and learning how things live.
I realise that you are merely speculating, but, if there were no living things, how would he learn about them? ; )

What do most scientist do when contemplating a creation?  Take notes, start small, observe and learn?
1. Well, gods are never scientists
2. How can you "take notes?" There is nothing to note until it is there.
3. The Bible shows a god that does not know anything about what he has created. Your god might. but then if you invent a god, that god can do anything you want, can't it?
4. If your thesis is correct, then has the god of creation left and gone on to do something else? Or, once having got his "train set" does he spend all day, every day playing with it?
5. You mean he started on viruses and worked his way up to dinosaurs and whales? If so, does this not mean that the god does not know everything?

1. Why not because you say so?  It seems only logical to me that God would be the grand master of science!
2. If it is there conceptually it is there.  You should know what I mean jelly bean! ;)
3. bible smible I don't care what the bible says.
4. We are in charge of our own destiny. We are not puppets but humans with minds of our own.
5. Did you know everything the day you were born?  I bet you would know a lot if you were 14 billion years old!!! and you're human!!!

I certainly did not invent God.  No way, no shape, no how!!!  I have more knowledge now than our early ancestors did.  I should understand things differently!!!
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Chronos on January 01, 2014, 10:02:35 AM
As far as reality goes we all live in each others reality do we not. 

Reality is evidenced by cause and effect -- proof. If you think your reality includes a god, that is not the same reality in which I live. My reality sees that there is no room for a god to have done anything at all. Since I do not claim that a god exists or existed, I have nothing to prove. Since your have modified reality to include a god, you must prove that god exists, not I. Therefore, your version of reality is different and you are deluding yourself because you cannot prove your version of reality is true.


Beliefs and value systems effect our social lives. 

Yes, they do, and often quite negatively. Since so many like to have different beliefs and value systems, cooperation is difficult and conflict is destructive.


If we lived in my dreams there would be no poverty or violence in this world.

As long as humans have volition that world is impossible. Why dream about the impossible?


I find it hard to believe that most of the people here/you do not want the same thing.

Do you read the news/paper at least every few weeks?

I haven't seen or read about rich people breaking down the doors in poor neighborhoods offering to upgrade the residents economic status from "poor" to "less poor". I also don't see all the gun owners voluntarily surrendering their firearms in order to make the world a safer place.

Ergo, I do not believe we all want the same thing. Those who have more tend to keep it, those who have less tend to lose it.


When I see all the power there is in the universe I can easily see a powerful God.

I have no idea what that means. Is power another euphemism for love? Have you seen what gamma rays do? Relative to humans, gamma rays are quite violent.

Heaven lies beyond death.  I would have to be dead to answer that question.

So, heaven is a location? This is why I ask where it might be. It's not? If it is just a state of mind, then I suspect I may agree with you. Heaven, in a flattened sense of meaning, is equal to death. Nothing happens there.


If I didn't believe in heaven I could not take the heart breaks of death.  I am very sensitive you know ;)  The only requirement is to love one another.  As far as those that hurt others, I trust that God is merciful.

If heaven = death, and therefore nothing happens there, what heart break could there be? None. Heart break is an emotion experienced among the living, not the dead.

Love only exists because hate does. If there were no hate, there would be no love. If north didn't exist, south wouldn't exist either -- south would be meaningless. To experience one thing you must have its opposite to compare. Without opposites, life is a one-dimensional world in which emotions disappear.


We, the human race, are in charge of our own destiny!

Apparently you haven't consumed much news in the past few years. Between climate change, nuclear accidents and meteors, among others, we clearly are not "in charge of our own destiny" but merely have an oar in the water. We don't control the flow of the river or the obstacles that lie ahead, so to say that we are in charge of own destiny eviscerates chance from our lives. Without chance, there is no randomness. Without randomness, emotions cannot be. Life again becomes a one-dimensional world. Actually, I should correct myself to say that life becomes a zero-dimensional world were even time doesn't exist. If there is no randomness, there can be no concept of time. What would time serve except to measure sameness? You cannot measure sameness without randomness occurring, and randomness requires a multi-dimensional world.

Believing that a one-dimensional (or more accurately a zero-dimensional) world is possible is to completely gut reality. I don't think anyone wants to live there, and more over, I don't think anyone would want to live there. Want/desire are human volitions that require randomness. With sameness, life is not possible.

Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Graybeard on January 01, 2014, 11:37:55 AM

1. Why not because you say so?  It seems only logical to me that God would be the grand master of science!
Name me one god that can be shown to have ever contributed anything to science.
Quote
2. If it is there conceptually it is there.
You mean that because I can conceive of something, it must be real? I can conceive of a flying leopard that turns into a lamppost every 17 minutes...
Quote
3. bible smible I don't care what the bible says.
OK but I added "Your god might. but then if you invent a god, that god can do anything you want, can't it?" -> you have invented a god.
Quote
4. We are in charge of our own destiny. We are not puppets but humans with minds of our own.
I don't see how this addresses my point: " the god of creation [has] left and gone on to do something else? Or, once having got his "train set" does he spend all day, every day playing with it?
Quote
5. Did you know everything the day you were born?  I bet you would know a lot if you were 14 billion years old!!! and you're human!!!
junebug. This is quite disappointing. How did I learn things? By experience and the experience of others. From whom did your god learn?

Quote
I certainly did not invent God.  No way, no shape, no how!!!
But you dismiss the Bible, so how do you know anything about "your god."? It does seem that you have invented a god. No real harm in that, just as long as you don't start evangelising. ; )
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Boots on January 01, 2014, 04:11:40 PM
Y'all base every thing you believe on theory not proven fact yet you think I'm childish and naive for doing the same thing.

Hi JB.
I should like to draw a distinction between common-use of the word "theory" which is really "hypothesis," and the scientific use of "theory."

A scientific theory is ...well, from livescience.com (emphases added):

"A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis or group of hypotheses that have been supported with repeated testing. If enough evidence accumulates to support a hypothesis, it moves to the next step—known as a theory—in the scientific method and becomes accepted as a valid explanation of a phenomenon."

So, when folks say "evolution is just a theory," they're equivocating (logical fallacy), misusing the term "theory" by replacing the above definition--an accepted explanation of phenomenon--with "hypothesis."  What you are suggesting is an hypothesis, not a theory.

Quote
Except God has proven God's existence to me because I have opened my heart and soul to it.

So, to clarify--you believed in God and therefore he proved his existence to you?  I see that as problematically circular: in order to believe, you have to believe?  Am I misrepresenting your statement?
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: wheels5894 on January 01, 2014, 05:11:02 PM
Boots,

You have summarised religion, including that of June which isn't a religion, perfectly, Circularity rules!
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on January 02, 2014, 08:14:30 AM
Chronos,

When I say we control our own destiny I mean mankind as a whole.  Mankind can chose to eliminate nuclear weapons, we can chose to use less fossil fuels, we can also chose not to build homes next to the river/build them to withstand floods and winds.  We can chose to stop arguing over beliefs.

You can not prove your reality either.  The Big Bang is a theory, evolution "theory" and neither explain the complexity of the planet or the human body.  None of us can travel back through time and bring back evidence of our origins.  All any of us can do is speculate.  What I don't find necessary is to use God's name to control mankind or to criticize/hurt others. 

Why dream? That's a very strange question. :?  Do you think there is a "reason" behind ideas?  Einstein?  I'll tell you a lot of that reply flabbergasted me.  I can't understand why you're here if not to change the world as we know it.  If you think it can't change why bother trying to believe anything because what difference would it make?  If not for dreams/ideas we would all still be living in caves hunting and gathering!  In my forty years on this planet I have seen things change for the better and I have some confidence the trend will continue after my demise.  I believe it is our duty as human beings to leave the world better than we found it.  In my world that means no more bible, no more religion!!!

I thought you misused the word reality so I used it so you could comprehend what I was saying. ;)

Perception can be proven by logic.  My logic is sound. 

You have to prove that God doesn't exist because it has been the most accepted version of our beginning not the other way around.  We both have the burden of proof!!!  Really think about what you're saying!  If that were true then why have this web site?  When people thought the world was round it had to be proven false before people would believe it!!!  On top of all that it's a cop out.  I think the most important thing either one of us can do is convince people that ancient beliefs do not fit in our modern society and go from there.  Disprove that old bible all you want to.  I'll help you do it.  What I can not do is support the "idea" that there is no "Force".

May The Force be with you,

JB
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: wheels5894 on January 02, 2014, 09:04:01 AM

You have to prove that God doesn't exist because it has been the most accepted version of our beginning not the other way around.  We both have the burden of proof!!!  Really think about what you're saying!  If that were true then why have this web site?  When people thought the world was round it had to be proven false before people would believe it!!!  On top of all that it's a cop out.  I think the most important thing either one of us can do is convince people that ancient beliefs do not fit in our modern society and go from there.  Disprove that old bible all you want to.  I'll help you do it.  What I can not do is support the "idea" that there is no "Force".

May The Force be with you,

JB

Interesting thought, June, but I really can't agree with you. Because a particluar idea has been the main way of thinking about things - that's the god idea - doesn't mean it needs disproving. Rather it means that, becasue of its univerasal acceptance, asking for a simple proof that there is a god should be a doddle. The facts is that there is not good proof.

Back in cosmology, the way we determine how things happened is to do the maths (at it is very, very complicated) to work out how our ideas would work out and then to use what we have to try and predict something and then look for it. For example, Peter Higgs predicted his Higgs Bosun 40 years or more before it was found and its finding confirms part of our theory of matter. In the same way, along before they were found, the Cosmic backgroud Radiation was predicted and it was indeed found and its patterns confirm part of the ideas of how the Big Bang worked.

So now you see how we deal with investigating things we cannot visit, let's see how it works for gods. If a god had created us, then, surely, there ought to be something about the world that we could go out and look for or compare with how we think things might look if there was not a god. For example, if we describe a god who is all-powerful and all-loving we would not expect to see much evil in the world, yet we do. Have a go and see what you could work out for your idea of god.
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on January 02, 2014, 09:14:28 AM

1. Why not because you say so?  It seems only logical to me that God would be the grand master of science!
Name me one god that can be shown to have ever contributed anything to science.
Quote
2. If it is there conceptually it is there.
You mean that because I can conceive of something, it must be real? I can conceive of a flying leopard that turns into a lamppost every 17 minutes...
Quote
3. bible smible I don't care what the bible says.
OK but I added "Your god might. but then if you invent a god, that god can do anything you want, can't it?" -> you have invented a god.
Quote
4. We are in charge of our own destiny. We are not puppets but humans with minds of our own.
I don't see how this addresses my point: " the god of creation [has] left and gone on to do something else? Or, once having got his "train set" does he spend all day, every day playing with it?
Quote
5. Did you know everything the day you were born?  I bet you would know a lot if you were 14 billion years old!!! and you're human!!!
junebug. This is quite disappointing. How did I learn things? By experience and the experience of others. From whom did your god learn?

Quote
I certainly did not invent God.  No way, no shape, no how!!!
But you dismiss the Bible, so how do you know anything about "your god."? It does seem that you have invented a god. No real harm in that, just as long as you don't start evangelising. ; )

Did the laws of physics exist before humans?  Yelp sure did!!!

I mean if you really want a flying leopard, you study the idea and try to make it happen.  If the information shown shows it can not be done then it can not be done.  If it's what you really want.  Doesn't sound so impossible to me.  Now a flying unicorn would be really hard to comprehend!  The fact is that our existence proves that we are not impossible!!!

The "Force" is there you chose not to use it!!!  I don't believe for 1 second that we are here for amusement!!!  I believe we are here to give purpose to all that space!!!

Yes exactly, experience.  However if you wanted to create a world with millions of life forms don't you think that would take some time or do you just dive right in there?  You're trying to take the answer to a question and twist it around.   I was asked what God was doing for the 14 billion years before planet earth.  I said it was a speculation.  It is a logical speculation to make.  You can't build a house without blueprints but you can't have blueprints w/o the idea.

That one's easy, science.  I have not invented God.  How can you invent something that existed before you were born?  I have a different understanding of a belief that has been around for thousands of years.  On top of all that the bible is not the only book out there on gods.  Come on man!!!  There's Mayan's, Hinduism, Toltec's, Egyptian, Greek, Romans, Vikings, Shinto, etc...man.  Do you really think that if we evolved from an ape that there wouldn't be hieroglyphics of part man part apes on cave walls instead of gods?  They left that there for us for a reason.  You really don't think they wouldn't have noticed the changes to their bodies or did one day the brain just start working on a higher level?   I mean really GB the spiritual mind should grow beside the scientific mind.  If not to me you're missing out on a part of the human experience!!!  You know limiting yourself.  I will not let that darn religion limit my possibilities!

If there is no life after death it also seems like a waste of a lot of space.  I know that's random but that's the junebug. :D

No evangelizing from me.:P 
 
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on January 02, 2014, 10:07:51 AM
Y'all base every thing you believe on theory not proven fact yet you think I'm childish and naive for doing the same thing.

Hi JB.
I should like to draw a distinction between common-use of the word "theory" which is really "hypothesis," and the scientific use of "theory."

A scientific theory is ...well, from livescience.com (emphases added):

"A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis or group of hypotheses that have been supported with repeated testing. If enough evidence accumulates to support a hypothesis, it moves to the next step—known as a theory—in the scientific method and becomes accepted as a valid explanation of a phenomenon."

So, when folks say "evolution is just a theory," they're equivocating (logical fallacy), misusing the term "theory" by replacing the above definition--an accepted explanation of phenomenon--with "hypothesis."  What you are suggesting is an hypothesis, not a theory.

Quote
Except God has proven God's existence to me because I have opened my heart and soul to it.

So, to clarify--you believed in God and therefore he proved his existence to you?  I see that as problematically circular: in order to believe, you have to believe?  Am I misrepresenting your statement?

And how many times has either the Big Bang or Evolution "Theories" been tested?   Hard experiment to pull off isn't it?  I have the same problem on my end.  I'm pretty sure when I first introduced my idea I called it a hypothesis.  I guess a little laziness took control.  Sorry.  However since my idea is just an extension and  logically sound I don't feel too bad about using the word theory!

Yes in a way, the second believe is not necessary.  I guess I was trying to sound scholarly, failed project.  It's like turning down a road and discovering where it goes and taking everything in along the way.  Things you wouldn't know if you turned down a different road.  Great thing about life though you can always take other roads.  It's up to you to decide.  It's up to you to take responsibility for how your choices affect others.  To even acknowledge that they do!

In a circle you would end up right back where you started!  I am definitely not the same person now as I was back then.  I am not a cat chasing it's tail, that's what your statement reminds me of. :laugh:  I would have gotten off that road after I realized I wasn't getting anywhere. ;)  Which is what a lot of Christians do.  They get off that road because the religion can not back up it's claims especially the one about God being responsible for the bible.  I took a turn down atheism drive and I didn't like it.  It stunted my spiritual growth just like religion did.  Something I needed to have, still do.  I would not have overcome the tragedies in my life w/o spiritual understanding.  I can only see me as bitter w/o my spiritual side.  Something I'm afraid I encounter way too often here.  Do I still love you, yes i do.  It makes me love you more.  No it's not the same as the love I feel for my family but it's love.  I honestly love mankind enough not to wish Hell upon any of us.  My belief leads me to try and have empathy for all of us.  We all have our tragedies and hopefully some triumphs too!

Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on January 02, 2014, 10:49:41 AM

You have to prove that God doesn't exist because it has been the most accepted version of our beginning not the other way around.  We both have the burden of proof!!!  Really think about what you're saying!  If that were true then why have this web site?  When people thought the world was round it had to be proven false before people would believe it!!!  On top of all that it's a cop out.  I think the most important thing either one of us can do is convince people that ancient beliefs do not fit in our modern society and go from there.  Disprove that old bible all you want to.  I'll help you do it.  What I can not do is support the "idea" that there is no "Force".

May The Force be with you,

JB

Interesting thought, June, but I really can't agree with you. Because a particluar idea has been the main way of thinking about things - that's the god idea - doesn't mean it needs disproving. Rather it means that, becasue of its univerasal acceptance, asking for a simple proof that there is a god should be a doddle. The facts is that there is not good proof.

Back in cosmology, the way we determine how things happened is to do the maths (at it is very, very complicated) to work out how our ideas would work out and then to use what we have to try and predict something and then look for it. For example, Peter Higgs predicted his Higgs Bosun 40 years or more before it was found and its finding confirms part of our theory of matter. In the same way, along before they were found, the Cosmic backgroud Radiation was predicted and it was indeed found and its patterns confirm part of the ideas of how the Big Bang worked.

So now you see how we deal with investigating things we cannot visit, let's see how it works for gods. If a god had created us, then, surely, there ought to be something about the world that we could go out and look for or compare with how we think things might look if there was not a god. For example, if we describe a god who is all-powerful and all-loving we would not expect to see much evil in the world, yet we do. Have a go and see what you could work out for your idea of god.

Hey Wheels,

I see no planet earth or us w/o intelligence existing first.  How that intelligence is contained can be debated but that the intelligence existed I don't see how it could.  I see the extinction of the dinosaur as evidence, our protective atmosphere,  our precise location to the sun,  DNA,  the incredible human mind, body, and spirit,  photosynthesis, the magnetic field, our gravitational pull, all this I see as evidence of a great scientific mind at work.  Notice that bold, more evidence.  The fact that math answers questions is evidence of intelligence to me.  Do you think the universe just made us w/o calculations.  To calculate you need a calculator; a brilliant mind.   A mind that is much more advanced than our own! 
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Boots on January 02, 2014, 11:44:02 AM
Hey Wheels,

I see no planet earth or us w/o intelligence existing first.  How that intelligence is contained can be debated but that the intelligence existed I don't see how it could.  I see the extinction of the dinosaur as evidence, our protective atmosphere,  our precise location to the sun,  DNA,  the incredible human mind, body, and spirit,  photosynthesis, the magnetic field, our gravitational pull, all this I see as evidence of a great scientific mind at work.  Notice that bold, more evidence.  The fact that math answers questions is evidence of intelligence to me.  Do you think the universe just made us w/o calculations.  To calculate you need a calculator; a brilliant mind.   A mind that is much more advanced than our own!

JB,
two things.
1) I've said this before, and it went badly last time, but I'll try again.  Saying this (emphasis added):
"I see no planet earth or us w/o intelligence existing first"
is a textbook example of the logical fallacy "Argument from Incredulity," otherwise known as "Argument from Ignorance."  Simply because you cannot fathom another explanation, does not mean there isn't one.  Please note I'm not calling you ignorant as an epithet, I'm using the term as it applies to every human on the planet: we are all ignorant of how things began.  Theists' insertion of god into that ignorance is a logical fallacy.

2) Your argument boils down to something Douglas Adams talked about.  Taken from wiki (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Douglas_Adams)

"Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' "

Similarly in Christopher Hitchins' "god is not Great," he talks about a nun he had as a teacher when he was a boy, who satated that "God made so many things green because green is so pleasing to our eyes!"  Even as a child, he understood she had everything backwards; green is pleasing to our eyes because so much "good" (for us) out there is green.

You've taken our existance, which while astronomically unlikely still happened (making that chance 100%) an dturned it around as some sort of evidence for a creator.  I ask, why would a creator who loves life, have made a universe so dreadfully inhospitable to life, that the only place we know of that can hold it is this infinitisimal speck of mud?  If the universe were in fact fine-tuned for life, we should expect to see the entire universe teaming with it.  Instead, we see an insignificant mote of it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you can take some solace/happiness in your beliefs.  I'm disappointed, though, that it takes this kind of thought process to attain that solace/happiness, when you could be getting it just from what's around you.  *shrug*
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Boots on January 02, 2014, 11:46:54 AM
And how many times has either the Big Bang or Evolution "Theories" been tested?   Hard experiment to pull off isn't it? 

Big Bang: true, but they're trying with that big ol' collider.

Evolution: many, many times.
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Traveler on January 02, 2014, 11:53:36 AM
...Do you really think that if we evolved from an ape that there wouldn't be hieroglyphics of part man part apes on cave walls instead of gods?  They left that there for us for a reason.  You really don't think they wouldn't have noticed the changes to their bodies or did one day the brain just start working on a higher level?...

No. Evolution works VERY slowly. No one would have noticed these things at all, because they were happening on a cosmic timeframe, not over a generation or two.
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 02, 2014, 12:05:30 PM
You can not prove your reality either.  The Big Bang is a theory, evolution "theory" and neither explain the complexity of the planet or the human body.  None of us can travel back through time and bring back evidence of our origins.  All any of us can do is speculate.  What I don't find necessary is to use God's name to control mankind or to criticize/hurt others. 

Junebug, it appears to me that you are describing the reality you want to be true, and ignoring everything that is contrary to that.

Theories are the strongest statement science can make. They are not casual comments. And we can go back in time. If not literally, then via geology and peering deep into space, where the light that is reaching us can be 10's of billions of years old.

Things that are possible that you would like include the idea that life on earth was seeded from other sources. That it didn't originate here, but elsewhere in the universe. Now sadly, that doesn't mean that we think superior beings landed in their flying saucers and made a garden or anything. Its just that either the building blocks of life or life itself managed to survive running around in space for a few million years and landed here when the conditions were right. But we can't yet go back in time and check out that one.

All of us speculate. But scientists with the curiosity and the equipment necessary have done more than sit around and guess. They have looked for and found evidence that appears to at least partially explain a lot of our questions. The problem is, if you are hoping for a specific answer and it isn't showing up in the scientific journals, you either have to change your hopes or diss the findings because you don't like them. And simply not liking them does not automatically make them false.

I wish the universe was different that it is. I wish earth, and especially humans, were different than they are. However, I have yet to find a reason to decide that my wishes are real and a that reality is wrong to ignore them. I don't for a second think that I have that much pull with the universe.

There is too much evidence for evolution to dismiss it readily. And if the big bang is not the source of our universe, and new theories are found, you will probably have to dismiss them as quickly as you do the current theory, because they are no more likely to match your wishes. Life is seldom that convenient.

I have many friends who look at the universe the way you do, and I love them dearly despite our differences on the subject. Because neither they, or you, are telling me I'm going to hell because I disagree. That really helps.
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Chronos on January 02, 2014, 01:59:34 PM
When I say we control our own destiny I mean mankind as a whole.  Mankind can chose to eliminate nuclear weapons, we can chose to use less fossil fuels, we can also chose not to build homes next to the river/build them to withstand floods and winds.  We can chose to stop arguing over beliefs.

If you mean to say humans can choose to do smarter things rather than dumber ones, then good luck with that happening.

The very essence of discussing whether a god exists, a god that you have no way to prove, is a rather dumb thing to do. It's a waste of time. If you had proof that a god exists and you wanted to discuss your proof, that would not be a waste of time. The problem is that you just want a god to exist and therefore it does. No proof. Any contradiction to your assertion is met by an impenetrable surface.

Let's discuss the existence of leprechauns and fairies. How about the Loch Ness Monster? The Bermuda Triangle? I cannot prove any of them, and to try to say they exist is a complete waste of time. I do not have to disprove them, either.


You can not prove your reality either. 

I can prove what I see or touch. I can prove mathematical equations. I can prove distance between two places. I can prove what happens when you combine two chemicals. Etc, etc, etc. I do not posit that a god exists, therefore I am not required to prove that a god exists.

Since you posit that a god exists, you are the one who is required to prove that a god is reality. You cannot do so, but you persist in perpetuating a notion that your god exists regardless of your lack of proof. While your position that there is a god is hardly unique, it's still stunning in its vacuousness. You might as well say you believe in little people living inside the walls of your home that come out and steal bites of food in the middle of the night.

If the delusion of a god were not shared by so many people, it would warrant a stay in a mental institution.


The Big Bang is a theory, evolution "theory" and neither explain the complexity of the planet or the human body.

Your lack of understanding of the big bang theory, the theory of evolution or the word "theory" leaves a lot to be desired. Apparently you like to remain ignorant of these things -- Wikipedia is a click away. The big bang theory is not a theory that has been used or will be used to explain the complexity of one ecosystem (the planet earth) or the human body or any other animal or plant. The theory of evolution explains and demonstrates the changes that have occurred over time in many animals and plants.


None of us can travel back through time and bring back evidence of our origins.  All any of us can do is speculate.  What I don't find necessary is to use God's name to control mankind or to criticize/hurt others.

Einstein proved that we cannot travel backward in time, so you are correct. However, just because I cannot travel backward in time does not mean that I cannot prove that you were born, to whom, on which date and where. There are records of your existence just like there are records of the existence of many animals and plants both living and extinct. If knowledge were limited to things that were only forward-looking, mankind would not have learned anything at all.


Why dream? That's a very strange question. :?  Do you think there is a "reason" behind ideas?  Einstein?  I'll tell you a lot of that reply flabbergasted me.  I can't understand why you're here if not to change the world as we know it.  If you think it can't change why bother trying to believe anything because what difference would it make?

You can dream all you want, but if you can't back up your dreams with some reality then you will never be able to accomplish your dreams. If your dreams have no basis in reality, then why have them? JK Rowling certainly daydreamed a lot about a character named Harry Potter, but she was writing a book of fiction so that she could sell it, entertain others and earn money on which to live. Rick Warren daydreamed about a character named "God" and/or "Jesus Christ" and wrote A Purpose Driven Life to sell to others as fact, not fiction. Rowling clearly identifies what she is selling; Warren does not. The average delusional Christian always expects to get a bye on reality so that their works are non-fiction:

(http://goo.gl/cTPPYO)


If not for dreams/ideas we would all still be living in caves hunting and gathering!

Fire is not a dream, it is a discovery. However, cooking food is an idea. A dream is living somewhere warm and dry: a home. Each of those is based on reality, not unreality.


In my forty years on this planet I have seen things change for the better and I have some confidence the trend will continue after my demise.  I believe it is our duty as human beings to leave the world better than we found it.  In my world that means no more bible, no more religion!!!

In my 47 years on the planet, some things are better, some are worse, some never changed. I'm not sure what your point is.


I thought you misused the word reality so I used it so you could comprehend what I was saying. ;)

That's your perception, I suppose.


Perception can be proven by logic.  My logic is sound. 

Your logic is not logic. I am not sure you are capable of discussing things in a logical way, at least with regard to your worldview. You are using emotions as the structures for your thoughts. Emotion inhibits logic. You want there to be a god, just not an organized religion, but you have no logical basis for proving that a god exists other than I just want it to be that way. That is not logic.

Physical perspective can be proven by logic, just ask any crime scene reconstructor. Perception is merely how you interpret what you see, hear or touch. I cannot prove that your visualization of the color red is just like my visualization of the color red. However, I can prove that the color we both see is a reflection of light of a specific wavelength equating to an international standard for "red".


You have to prove that God doesn't exist because it has been the most accepted version of our beginning not the other way around.

By your own word ^ you have proven that you are not able to engage in logical thoughts.

Anyone who is capable of logical thinking knows that the person who posits something must be the one to prove it, not the other way around.


We both have the burden of proof!!!

Again, by your own word ^ you have proven that you are not able to engage in logical thoughts. You would fail any introductory course of philosophy.


Really think about what you're saying!

Your reply is an example of projection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection): a defense mechanism in which a person unconsciously rejects his or her own unacceptable attributes by ascribing them to objects or persons in the outside world.


If that were true then why have this web site?

The owner of this website created it in order to express his dismay at wide-scale delusional thinking.


When people thought the world was round it had to be proven false before people would believe it!!!  On top of all that it's a cop out.

Whaaa?


I think the most important thing either one of us can do is convince people that ancient beliefs do not fit in our modern society and go from there.

And an ancient belief is that there have been gods.

Jeez. Do you ever say out loud the words you type?


Disprove that old bible all you want to.  I'll help you do it.  What I can not do is support the "idea" that there is no "Force".

May The Force be with you,

JB


And that's all she wrote!


Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Ataraxia on January 03, 2014, 08:49:03 AM
I see no planet earth or us w/o intelligence existing first.  How that intelligence is contained can be debated but that the intelligence existed I don't see how it could.  I see the extinction of the dinosaur as evidence, our protective atmosphere,  our precise location to the sun,  DNA,  the incredible human mind, body, and spirit,  photosynthesis, the magnetic field, our gravitational pull, all this I see as evidence of a great scientific mind at work.  Notice that bold, more evidence.  The fact that math answers questions is evidence of intelligence to me.  Do you think the universe just made us w/o calculations.  To calculate you need a calculator; a brilliant mind.   A mind that is much more advanced than our own!

Here you are turning maths and science into god and god into something indistinguishable from an advanced alien race that can take the knowledge they have of science and maths and create a complex planetary system.
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on January 03, 2014, 08:57:48 AM
I don't believe in God because I want to.  I do not deny science I embrace it.  I do not misunderstand science either.  I am just saying by itself it does not explain everything.  There are still questions.  Questions you all should be asking too.  I am open minded.  As far as the argument from ignorance, I will never concede to that.  Unless you would like to as well.  We are arguing from the same knowledge.  I'm just finishing the story where you prefer to leave blanks.  On top of that my experience as a believer has been rewarding and positive not only for me but for all the people that cross my path. 

Some mental health pro's would say y'all are the delusional ones.  I know one imparticular, Pia Melody.  She even goes as far to say it is child abuse not to nourish your child's spiritual side.  She does not promote religion.  She specializes in Co-Dependency.  At AA meetings they pray the serenity prayer.  That prayer helps many people accept the things they can not change, courage to face what they can and wisdom to know the difference!   Try telling them God doesn't exist.

Yelp if you're going to call someone delusional you should back that up with proof.  There is not 1 psychiatrist out there that would treat me for delusions!   I doubt they would ya'll either!  So let's just say we are not delusional. 

Traveler,

That's fine.  We can discuss the validity of evolution later.  That's not what this thread is about. ;)


This thread is getting off track.  We are supposed to be discussing the possibility of a god being formed within the dense matter that caused the Big Bang!  If that is possible and I'm sure it is,  then I am not delusional but quite real and proves how very logical I can be about the existence of God. 

Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: wheels5894 on January 03, 2014, 09:19:44 AM
Sorry, June, but i for one can't go with the idea of a god being formed from the Big Bang / Big Bounce (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bounce). If you find it improbable that intelligent humans could have been formed during the life of the universe and through natural processes such as evolution, then the probablity of a god (read super powerful, super intelligent being) being formed right after the Big Bang / Bounce, if even more improbable.

The snag with filling in gaps in our knowledge with a  god is that those gaps are slowing being closed so that, over time, god gets squashed out.
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on January 03, 2014, 09:30:27 AM
I see no planet earth or us w/o intelligence existing first.  How that intelligence is contained can be debated but that the intelligence existed I don't see how it could.  I see the extinction of the dinosaur as evidence, our protective atmosphere,  our precise location to the sun,  DNA,  the incredible human mind, body, and spirit,  photosynthesis, the magnetic field, our gravitational pull, all this I see as evidence of a great scientific mind at work.  Notice that bold, more evidence.  The fact that math answers questions is evidence of intelligence to me.  Do you think the universe just made us w/o calculations.  To calculate you need a calculator; a brilliant mind.   A mind that is much more advanced than our own!

Here you are turning maths and science into god and god into something indistinguishable from an advanced alien race that can take the knowledge they have of science and maths and create a complex planetary system.

Well I'd certainly buy that over the biblical explanation! 

I am not turning math and science into god.  I'm saying that God used them like we do on a larger scale.  I'm saying these laws existed before us or our planet.  I do not see how either one creates life individually with out an operator.  If not for these laws our existence would not be possible.  Y'all are the ones turning God into science not me.
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on January 03, 2014, 09:52:38 AM
Sorry, June, but i for one can't go with the idea of a god being formed from the Big Bang / Big Bounce (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bounce). If you find it improbable that intelligent humans could have been formed during the life of the universe and through natural processes such as evolution, then the probablity of a god (read super powerful, super intelligent being) being formed right after the Big Bang / Bounce, if even more improbable.

The snag with filling in gaps in our knowledge with a  god is that those gaps are slowing being closed so that, over time, god gets squashed out.

You are still not understanding the concept Wheels.  I did not say right after I said inside it. 

Does the Big Bang Theory not state that all matter was condensed into a relatively tiny space in comparison to what is now the universe?   All the planets, stars, all that we know was condensed and after a while all that energy built up and then BOOM there's the universe.  Planets and stars begin to form....da da da da da. 

Now that we have that information I'm saying that while this matter, all that is necessary for life, is so condensed a super being could have formed.  A super being us earthlings call God.   

Now just let me see that you understand the hypothesis before I continue. 

God will never get squashed out!!!  Hopefully a better understanding will get squashed in!  Religion hopefully so!  There are just a few churches out of hundreds here that fill their parking lots.  They are very out spoken anti gay people.  The next most successful churches here are the modern day thinkers.  They love everybody.
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Boots on January 03, 2014, 11:19:38 AM
Does the Big Bang Theory not state that all matter was condensed into a relatively tiny space in comparison to what is now the universe?   All the planets, stars, all that we know was condensed and after a while all that energy built up and then BOOM there's the universe.  Planets and stars begin to form....da da da da da. 

Now that we have that information I'm saying that while this matter, all that is necessary for life, is so condensed a super being could have formed.  A super being us earthlings call God.   

So, you're saying that you DON'T buy that the Big Bang could have eventually led by itself to the complexity of life we see, but you DO buy that it could have spontaneously formed a Super Being capable of creating that complexity--which means that it has pretty significant complexity?

Quote from: junebug72
I do not deny science I embrace it.  I do not misunderstand science either.  I am just saying by itself it does not explain everything.  There are still questions.  Questions you all should be asking too.  I am open minded.  As far as the argument from ignorance, I will never concede to that.  Unless you would like to as well.  We are arguing from the same knowledge.  I'm just finishing the story where you prefer to leave blanks.


emphasis added.

that last statement itself proves that you

* are arguing from ignorance.  You're "finishing the story" with made-up stuff.  I am content to say "I don't know, but I see no reason to insert a made-up god in the blank spaces."  Of course I concede that I'm ignorant of whether there could possibly ever have been a god-like creature.  But I'm not willing to sya "I don't know, therefore god" as you have done.  This *is* the definition of "Argument from Ignorance"

* do misunderstand science.  Science leaves blanks, but strives to fill them with data and evidence-based explanations, whereas you are content to fill them with wishful thinking.
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Graybeard on January 03, 2014, 11:57:32 AM
Quote
2. If it is there conceptually it is there.
You mean that because I can conceive of something, it must be real? I can conceive of a flying leopard that turns into a lamppost every 17 minutes...
I mean if you really want a flying leopard, you study the idea and try to make it happen.  If the information shown shows it can not be done then it can not be done.  If it's what you really want.  Doesn't sound so impossible to me.  Now a flying unicorn would be really hard to comprehend!  The fact is that our existence proves that we are not impossible!!!
I think this is where you lose your audience. You, at first say
Quote
2. If it is there conceptually it is there.
Then you say
Quote
If the information shown shows it cannot be done then it can not be done.

The problem here is that your argument at first depended upon being able to conceive of something means that it must exist, but then it descended to reality when you wrote If the information shown shows it cannot be done then it can not be done. and you have admitted that the first argument was wrong.

In doing this, you destroy your argument for any god.

The other thing is, you seem unable to be consistent: either you believe that Yahweh is as described in the Bible (which is the only mention and description we have) or you believe in a god that might be a little similar to Yahweh but is nothing like Yahweh of the Bible.

If it is the latter, then you have "made up" a god, and there would seem to be no way for you to deny it, as your god is certainly not Yahweh. Of course you could always show that the translation from the Ancient Hebrew as made by scholars over the millennia is wrong, and that you are correct... however, that might take a little time.

I doubt you will understand this next part: "If Elves are not real and dragons are not real? How do we know that elves and dragons are not the same thing?" I ask you this as you could tell an elf from a dragon although neither exist. In the same way, you should be able to tell your invented god from the god that the Bible has invented.

I think it would be of genuine help if you were less enthusiastic in putting forward unlikely explanations as quickly as you can type and stuck to the more accepted ones. Failing that, a critical re-reading before pressing the "Post" button would save a lot of us from having to explain things.
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: xyzzy on January 03, 2014, 12:01:00 PM
I don't believe in God because I want to.  I do not deny science I embrace it.  I do not misunderstand science either.  I am just saying by itself it does not explain everything.  There are still questions.  Questions you all should be asking too.  I am open minded.  As far as the argument from ignorance, I will never concede to that.  Unless you would like to as well.  <snip>

Good morning, Junebug. I'm glad you embrace science, because then you can support your hypothesis using science and not the process we often see where people punt to the unknown the moment their claims are questioned. Can we please see how far we can get in your explanation using known science before we hit the wall of "unknown"?

You say you don't believe in god because you want to. Thus, you don't look for an explanation to appeal to you, satisfy what you want to be true? You can accept an explanation that does not include god even if it is emotionally unsatisfying? Is that correct?

As far as the argument from ignorance, you still seem to be confused. Conceding that one does not know something (is ignorant in that matter) does mean you are using ignorance in a fallacious manner. Not knowing is what drives science. As Dara O'Brian  (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Dara_%C3%93_Briain) put it "Science knows it doesn't know everything; otherwise, it'd stop."

It's the manner with which one appeals to mystery or the unknown as a way to keep a claim alive that makes the argument fallacious. As an example, appeals to be "open-minded" are often used by believers in pseudoscience to mask appeals to ignorance. I'm linking to a video below that is a wonderful explanation on what is, and is not, reasonable use of the term.

Quote
Does the Big Bang Theory not state that all matter was condensed into a relatively tiny space in comparison to what is now the universe?   All the planets, stars, all that we know was condensed and after a while all that energy built up and then BOOM there's the universe.  Planets and stars begin to form....da da da da da.

No, not really. At least not in a manner that is anything other than a strawman or an overly-simplistic (no offence intended) description that avoids detail present in cosmological models that describe the formation of the universe from the tiniest fragment of a second after the Big Bang until today.

Also, "energy" did not "build up" in the sense you seem to be applying. You've made this allusion before with "condensed" and getting stronger. Sorry, JB, but I don't think you really understand what happened in the model to which you refer, which makes your explanation questionable.

But look, this thread isn't about defining the big bang. You stated you had a hypothesis. Well, that's one of these:

Quote
A hypothesis (plural hypotheses) is a proposed explanation for a phenomenon. For a hypothesis to be a scientific hypothesis, the scientific method requires that one can test it.

Now you've said "This Is Possible". Well, lots of things are "possible" if you misuse and abuse the term "possible". It's "possible" that less than 8 minutes ago the sun exploded. In fact, seeing as we have a mechanism of action as to why we might not yet be aware of that, I'm going to posit that it even though is absurdly unlikely to have happened, it's still almost infinitely more likely to be true than any claim where someone simply says "It's Possible!" because I should keep an open mind to it being possible. But I say that only based on your not yet having provided the detail as to how it is possible.

So, embracing science, please help us all understand:

If you can't do that, then you don't have an hypothesis. You don't even have a conjecture. What you have is an unsupported assertion expressed in the form of a wish or a belief.[1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDYba0m6ztE

edit: corrected much bad grammar
 1. There's nothing inherently wrong in wishes or beliefs. But, equally, they don't change into something else simply by claiming that "it's possible".
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on January 03, 2014, 04:54:43 PM
Y'all just don't know how much I enjoy talking to guys about this stuff.  Most Christians I know seem so uncomfortable listening or discussing my beliefs.  My own family looks at me like I'm on the highway to hell.  My great grandmother was a church of god preacher.  She died before I was born.

OK OK I understand the argument from ignorance term now.  You're saying that claiming there is a God is arguing from ignorance because it is used to explain the unknown.  I'm guilty as charged.   However, since joining this web site I have dove deeper and deeper into what I think reality is.  I thoroughly enjoy the challenge.  I know I could be wrong I hope that I'm right.  Does that prove God exists no it doesn't but it does prove that you can believe in God w/o religious guidance and w/o being an a hole.

The only reason I even began this quest is because I couldn't believe in the bible or any other religion but I could not rule out God.  Also atheism did not fulfill my need.  I've been through some shit man.  Latest on the list cancer. 

Xyzzy,

Very good comeback my man.  I know this is going to sound like a cop out but i don't have a lab.  I don't have access to the past.  I don't believe if God exists that God would want us to know that much about it.  Look how much we have learned trying to discover Truth.  I would probably enjoy such a quest though. ;)  It is definitely one of the regrets in my life.  You know not exploring more.  I ain't getting on no airplane! 

All I know is it seems like a great honor to receive this knowledge after death.  Something like that would make this struggle through life fair.  If we knew things for sure then it wouldn't really be a choice would it; right and wrong that is.

Boots if you're coming up with blanks and you're okay with it; who am I to judge?  I do not state however that what I claim is absolute truth.  I only claim there is logic inspiring belief not ignorance or delusions.   

GB,

You can be so condescending!  Man that gets on my nerves.  People skills, people skills! :laugh: 

This reply-
Quote
The problem here is that your argument at first depended upon being able to conceive of something means that it must exist, but then it descended to reality when you wrote If the information shown shows it cannot be done then it can not be done. and you have admitted that the first argument was wrong.

shows you misquote me... I did not say it was not possible to invent a flying leopard.  I said I would find it harder to believe you could make a flying unicorn.  A flying leopard seems possible.  We already crossbreed plants and make goats and cows why not a flying leopard!!! :laugh:

Also your use of the word "must" is very out of place.  The only thing I meant to say was that you have to be inspired with an idea before you draw the blueprints.  I never said if you can conceive it, it must be true.

I have been very consistent in saying I do not believe the bible.  The only thing I have in common with that book is a claim that I believe in God.  Christianity is in fact one of the youngest religions in the world.   

You could learn a lot from xyzzy. 
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: xyzzy on January 04, 2014, 02:02:59 PM
You say you don't believe in god because you want to. Thus, you don't look for an explanation to appeal to you, satisfy what you want to be true? You can accept an explanation that does not include god even if it is emotionally unsatisfying? Is that correct?

The only reason I even began this quest is because I couldn't believe in the bible or any other religion but I could not rule out God.  Also atheism did not fulfill my need.  I've been through some shit man.  Latest on the list cancer. 

Junebug, what need did atheism not fulfill in your life, and how did it not?

Secondary to that, atheism is a rejection of the claim of the existence of gods / the supernatural. If that is not the definition you are using, please explain what you meant by atheism.

Also, in terms of belief, please do reference forum member OldChurchGuy (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,5088.msg108550.html#msg108550) for an example of someone who is extremely well liked and respected on this board. I bring this up just so we are all clear that belief absent-proof is not automatically a naughty word in these circles.

I have some other comments to come back to, but I don't want us to go off in too many directions at once.
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on January 05, 2014, 11:42:23 AM
You say you don't believe in god because you want to. Thus, you don't look for an explanation to appeal to you, satisfy what you want to be true? You can accept an explanation that does not include god even if it is emotionally unsatisfying? Is that correct?

The only reason I even began this quest is because I couldn't believe in the bible or any other religion but I could not rule out God.  Also atheism did not fulfill my need.  I've been through some shit man.  Latest on the list cancer. 

Junebug, what need did atheism not fulfill in your life, and how did it not?

Secondary to that, atheism is a rejection of the claim of the existence of gods / the supernatural. If that is not the definition you are using, please explain what you meant by atheism.

Also, in terms of belief, please do reference forum member OldChurchGuy (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,5088.msg108550.html#msg108550) for an example of someone who is extremely well liked and respected on this board. I bring this up just so we are all clear that belief absent-proof is not automatically a naughty word in these circles.

I have some other comments to come back to, but I don't want us to go off in too many directions at once.

I'm quite sick and in a bad mood this morning so I'm going to be short and sweet.  OldChurchGuy does not debate.  He barely makes a paragraph.  So where y'all may respect him more than me at least I've got guts and respect for myself.  Plus do you think he is delusional for believing in  God?  That is a direct question.  You can't respect someone you claim is delusional.  I deserve your respect and it shows a characteristic flaw on y'alls part for not giving it, not mine!!!

Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on January 05, 2014, 11:53:49 AM
You say you don't believe in god because you want to. Thus, you don't look for an explanation to appeal to you, satisfy what you want to be true? You can accept an explanation that does not include god even if it is emotionally unsatisfying? Is that correct?

The only reason I even began this quest is because I couldn't believe in the bible or any other religion but I could not rule out God.  Also atheism did not fulfill my need.  I've been through some shit man.  Latest on the list cancer. 

Junebug, what need did atheism not fulfill in your life, and how did it not?

Secondary to that, atheism is a rejection of the claim of the existence of gods / the supernatural. If that is not the definition you are using, please explain what you meant by atheism.

Also, in terms of belief, please do reference forum member OldChurchGuy (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,5088.msg108550.html#msg108550) for an example of someone who is extremely well liked and respected on this board. I bring this up just so we are all clear that belief absent-proof is not automatically a naughty word in these circles.

I have some other comments to come back to, but I don't want us to go off in too many directions at once.

What need didn't get filled?  Emotional healing from the abuse of my childhood.  We use the term atheism the same way.  A broken heart is what made me give up on belief and is also what led me back to it! 

If the only way to get respect around here is to give up belief or just make random remarks here and there you can keep it.  Maybe I should quit showing y'all respect to even the score but I have never believed 2 wrongs make a right!!!!

The OCG does not challenge y'all the way I do.  No offense meant to you OCG!   Like how does he answer all the questions here?  What does he say about god allowing suffering?  Where does he say God comes from?  Does he cherry pick the bible or not believe the bible?  Does he believe we're going to hell?   You know we are both in their sights for eternal damnation don't you? 

You're going to have to help me out here I don't have access to anything but the shelter, just a click away..lol :laugh:

http://youtu.be/LDxpdFKuGb4
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on January 05, 2014, 12:58:08 PM
I just need to add 1 thing,being atheist did not turn me into a monster or a condescending jerk.  I just felt after a while, 7-8 years, that something was missing.:blank:

You know when it gets to the point in a debate that you have to start insinuating a lack of respect for your opponent it usually means quite the opposite.   It means your opponent is so tough you have nothing else to say.

I'm Here to Stay-KORN

http://youtu.be/pr3x7tS__dE

Saw them live 3 times!!! Awesome,  I rocked my arse off!!!  First time I gave myself whoop lash. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: xyzzy on January 05, 2014, 09:37:36 PM
You know when it gets to the point in a debate that you have to start insinuating a lack of respect for your opponent it usually means quite the opposite.   It means your opponent is so tough you have nothing else to say.

Junebug, if you mean similar to the way that you put words into other people's mouths and place yourself in the role of a victim, yes I would agree with you. I don't think this discussion will get much further at this rate but I'll try.

Before we get too much further, a suggestion. I would ask that you read this through to the end. Please don't respond to a part and not read the rest. Also, perhaps write your response offline. Read it. Reread it. Throw it away. Then start again. ;) I think you may be surprised how many people don't use their first drafts. I'm already on round two three, myself.

Speaking about needs. Do you not see that you have constructed a god around what you want to believe to be true? It has been said before, this is a god that is entirely of your own making and it only exists in your world.

I'm sorry to be harsh, but you have no support for your position being anything other than what you would like to be true. We'll get back to that but it's OK to dream, it's OK to wish, it's when you start trying to claim that your beliefs are on par with what we can prove that you get onto slippery ice. If it's this important to you that your god is real, I suggest to you that it's important for you to prove it, not just assert it.

We've heard that this god is possible yet, when asked how we can determine that, you conveniently tell us that that you don't have access to the past or a lab, as if that somehow allows your god to be real yet unchallenged. In your world, maybe. In this place, that's not how it works.

But, yes we do have a time machine, and yes we do have a lab. 

The time machine is the universe with the prevailing cosmological theory of the [wiki=Big_bang]Big Bang,[/wiki] we have the [wiki=Cosmic_microwave_background_radiation]cosmic microwave background,[/wiki] we have spacecraft that have now left the building [wiki=Voyager_probe]solar system,[/wiki] we have deep space observations from [wiki=Hubble]Hubble,[/wiki] and much, much, more.

The lab, too, is the universe and all that is around us. Theory has predictive power - it has to - and we can test those predictions. One also can use [wiki=Thought_experiment]thought experiments[/wiki] - just working through a condition asking "If I do x, then what happens? OK, now what?". "Here's what I find - does my theory account for all that it should? Not just a bit here and there but all that it should?" If it doesn't, then more work needs to be done.

Anything that you propose has to provide clarity above and beyond what we have today. I know that that's a tall order, but I'm not the one claiming that something else is the answer. Nor am I saying that these theories don't provide enough answers.

Now for JB's god, you start off with a conclusion: a loving god who cares about you, has opposite views on sexual orientation to the (same?) god you used to believe hated you, and just generally fits with the fluffy bunny and cute kitten world that you wish we all inhabited; and then, arbitrarily, declare it possible through a series of fallacies and leaps of logic that would astound even Rudolf Nureyev. As far as I can tell, that's all you have. Assertions, your own definitions, and hope. Note, I'm not dissing you - I'm just being clear on the fact that you have consistently not provided anything else of substance.

But it's OK to dream.

If it's important to you to believe that there is a heaven waiting, that there is a power looking after you, that's entirely your right. Most of us here have friends who have similar outlooks on life.

My concern comes in when people try to force their beliefs on others, particularly when those beliefs are an impediment to progress or a harmonious society. Now the preceding doesn't apply to you, but I do care when I see people who do themselves a disservice by denying the power that they have within themselves.

When someone thanks "a higher power" for helping them get off drugs, they devalue their own contribution.

When someone says they couldn't have got through a difficult situation without some god's love, they wrongly attribute the origin of their strength. Later, when faced with other adversity, they are now dependent on this belief not realising that they've only just begun to tap their own power. Failure then becomes a personal let down from this god, which can lead to a downward spiral.

When someone tells me that they look forward to a life after this one, I would hate to think that they might miss an opportunity to relish every possible experience that they might have - in the only life we know for certain exists.

You didn't ask, but that's why I care and, even if you doubt it, that's probably why we all care about you.
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Ataraxia on January 06, 2014, 05:30:31 AM
I see no planet earth or us w/o intelligence existing first.  How that intelligence is contained can be debated but that the intelligence existed I don't see how it could.  I see the extinction of the dinosaur as evidence, our protective atmosphere,  our precise location to the sun,  DNA,  the incredible human mind, body, and spirit,  photosynthesis, the magnetic field, our gravitational pull, all this I see as evidence of a great scientific mind at work.  Notice that bold, more evidence.  The fact that math answers questions is evidence of intelligence to me.  Do you think the universe just made us w/o calculations.  To calculate you need a calculator; a brilliant mind.   A mind that is much more advanced than our own!

Here you are turning maths and science into god and god into something indistinguishable from an advanced alien race that can take the knowledge they have of science and maths and create a complex planetary system.

Well I'd certainly buy that over the biblical explanation!

They are as unsubstantiated as one another. 

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I am not turning math and science into god.  I'm saying that God used them like we do on a larger scale.  I'm saying these laws existed before us or our planet.  I do not see how either one creates life individually with out an operator.  If not for these laws our existence would not be possible.  Y'all are the ones turning God into science not me.

You're saying that these laws existed before god too, and that he used them. He didn't create them, he used them, ergo you are making these laws more godlike than god.

And who is "y'all"? I speak for me and me alone. Nowhere have I claimed science is god, so please don't misrepresent me.
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on January 06, 2014, 07:51:33 AM
Xyzzy,  Should I have bolded the questions?

I did not invent God I just took the bible out of the equation.  I am proud of every word I've posted.  My beliefs don't hurt you or anybody else, not even me.  That's the way belief should be;  Harmless! ;)  The bible is not harmless.

If I, a mortal, can be loving then I am certain that our immortal creator is loving x 100! If God exists!

That's all you get until you answer my questions. :blank:

Or you can go ahead and admit you lack respect for us both because we believe in God!  Or you're problem with me is I'm too darn sweet!  Neither a good reason to disrespect someone!
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on January 06, 2014, 08:12:04 AM
I see no planet earth or us w/o intelligence existing first.  How that intelligence is contained can be debated but that the intelligence existed I don't see how it could.  I see the extinction of the dinosaur as evidence, our protective atmosphere,  our precise location to the sun,  DNA,  the incredible human mind, body, and spirit,  photosynthesis, the magnetic field, our gravitational pull, all this I see as evidence of a great scientific mind at work.  Notice that bold, more evidence.  The fact that math answers questions is evidence of intelligence to me.  Do you think the universe just made us w/o calculations.  To calculate you need a calculator; a brilliant mind.   A mind that is much more advanced than our own!

Here you are turning maths and science into god and god into something indistinguishable from an advanced alien race that can take the knowledge they have of science and maths and create a complex planetary system.

Well I'd certainly buy that over the biblical explanation!

They are as unsubstantiated as one another. 

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I am not turning math and science into god.  I'm saying that God used them like we do on a larger scale.  I'm saying these laws existed before us or our planet.  I do not see how either one creates life individually with out an operator.  If not for these laws our existence would not be possible.  Y'all are the ones turning God into science not me.

You're saying that these laws existed before god too, and that he used them. He didn't create them, he used them, ergo you are making these laws more godlike than god.

And who is "y'all"? I speak for me and me alone. Nowhere have I claimed science is god, so please don't misrepresent me.

If you do not believe there was an intelligent entity involved in our creation then yes you do believe science is God.  You believe these laws worked independently to create life.  That may not be your definition of God but it is mine;creator of life on earth.  You are trying to replace God with science.  I prefer to intertwine the two.  I think I make more sense. :laugh:

Using the victim card around here is taboo.  Defending yourself a big no no.  I don't care what people say about you. 

I am making them tools of God not God!
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Ataraxia on January 06, 2014, 08:32:17 AM
If you do not believe there was an intelligent entity involved in our creation then yes you do believe science is God.  You believe these laws worked independently to create life.  That may not be your definition of God but it is mine;creator of life on earth.  You are trying to replace God with science.  I prefer to intertwine the two.  I think I make more sense. :laugh:

Using the victim card around here is taboo.  Defending yourself a big no no.  I don't care what people say about you. 

I am making them tools of God not God!

I don't think you know what science is. All it is is a method of investigation. To say that science can be considered a god when it isn't an intelligence seems like a misnomer, but then from an ignostic point of view, when god can mean any catch-all thing you can think of to render the term meaningless, then heck, my Biro is god.

I believe that there is no evidence to suggest that these laws are dependent on an intelligence in order for life to exist on earth. You can change that by actually supplying evidence instead of bold assertion, and since you believe in a god that was born out of a natural occurrence, then evidence can potentially be produced (unlike a supernatural god).

With what I've alluded to above, your theology does highlight a major problem with theism/deism - the inconsistency of the term "God". What does it mean? - anything you want, to a point that like with you, that even those who consider themselves atheists aren't really atheist, because even they come to a point where something has to be classed as god.
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on January 06, 2014, 09:42:35 AM
Logic can be used to prove belief.  My logic is tight. 

Yelp evidence could eventually be produced unlike the biblical claims of God!

I'll tell you what I'll provide some evidence when you do.  Go ahead show me some physics creating planets that support life and then the life that it creates.  To me all the planets out there that do not have humans on them is all the proof I need that these laws need an operator to create life as we know it.  Your version of things there should be life on every planet!!!  I see those planets there on purpose as a protective shield keeping big asteroids and comets from demolishing our planet.  They were never meant to sustain human life.  Thinking that we could just move to one of them is just a way to keep letting scientist destroy this planet with their polluting fossil fuels!!!  The sun's life ending in 4 billion years can be avoided if we please God by loving one another, IMO.

One more thing, believing in an afterlife does not make me think less of this one but quite the opposite!!!  It helps me understand why we should be kind to one another.  Even if your fellow man doesn't appreciate your kindness there is someone larger than them that does!

Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Boots on January 06, 2014, 10:59:39 AM
Logic can be used to prove belief.  My logic is tight. 

jb, the rest of your post belies that statement (examples below).  But I'd like to invite you to present your logic again, in a cohesive manner.  What, exactly, are you logically claiming again?

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To me all the planets out there that do not have humans on them is all the proof I need that these laws need an operator to create life as we know it.  Your version of things there should be life on every planet!!!  I see those planets there on purpose as a protective shield keeping big asteroids and comets from demolishing our planet. 

wh--wh--whaaaaa???  in what way is "our version of things" stating that there should be life on every planet?  This seems like a GROSS misrepresentation of anything anyone on this thread has said, so please elucidate me on what you mean.

And as a "protective shield" against incoming collisions...do you understand the vastness of the space between each of the planets?  You're talking about standing in the middle of 5 football fields, and hoping that 7 acorns floating around you throughout that space are going to block incoming rocks somehow.  It's really...far-fetched.

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They were never meant to sustain human life.  Thinking that we could just move to one of them is just a way to keep letting scientist destroy this planet with their polluting fossil fuels!!!  The sun's life ending in 4 billion years can be avoided if we please God by loving one another, IMO.

how exactly will that happen?

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One more thing, believing in an afterlife does not make me think less of this one but quite the opposite!!!  It helps me understand why we should be kind to one another.  Even if your fellow man doesn't appreciate your kindness there is someone larger than them that does!

Can you explain how a blessed, eternal afterlife makes you think more of this one?  I don't follow the logic.
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on January 06, 2014, 01:00:37 PM
"We humans may never figure out the truth, but I prefer trying to find it over pretending we know it."  ~ParkingPlaces

But yet you assert to know many things! You rule others out w/o considering the possibility of their truths.  I am only interested in getting rid of the OT.  Like for instance you know God doesn't exist, right?  We should all be agnostic about what we believe until the absolute truth is known!  I am an agnostic theist with no belief in the bible's OT.  Moses is nothing more than a serial killer who knows nothing about God only human cruelty, death and chaos.  Does that mean God doesn't exist, sure don't, it means Moses was a cruel man.

As far as the afterlife, I mean it's the only place I will ever know true peace.  I can be reunited with my loved ones there.  I will not hunger nor will I experience pain.  What good is dying if not to take you there?  Life is a journey to death; I just don't think death is the end.  I don't want an eternal life on earth.  That would suck.  It makes me appreciate this life because this life is my ticket there so long as I am kind to others!  I can live w/o fear of dying! W/o the afterlife It would be cruel to even reproduce knowing your childs inevitable fate with death.  Why put that on someone, especially someone you love? 

I am logically claiming that God might exist!

You know what I'm beginning to think the only way people here will understand me is to walk a mile in my shoes!  I'm here representing the gay community.  To tell them they can believe despite what religions tell them.  Anybody can.  There are a lot of gays that believe in God the same way I do.  The bible forces us to look outside the bible for comfort and many of us have found it in spirituality!  I will not give religion the satisfaction of taking belief away from me.   The only way to do that is with an absolute truth!
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Boots on January 06, 2014, 01:48:07 PM
I am logically claiming that God might exist!

which one?

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As far as the afterlife, I mean it's the only place I will ever know true peace.  I can be reunited with my loved ones there.  I will not hunger nor will I experience pain.  What good is dying if not to take you there?  Life is a journey to death; I just don't think death is the end.  I don't want an eternal life on earth.  That would suck.  It makes me appreciate this life because this life is my ticket there so long as I am kind to others!  I can live w/o fear of dying! W/o the afterlife It would be cruel to even reproduce knowing your childs inevitable fate with death.  Why put that on someone, especially someone you love?

once again, just because you want something to be true, doesn't mean that it is.
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on January 06, 2014, 02:01:47 PM
The one that might have created us! 

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once again, just because you want something to be true, doesn't mean that it is.

ditto


Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Boots on January 06, 2014, 03:05:28 PM
The one that might have created us! 

that...was not very helpful.

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Quote
once again, just because you want something to be true, doesn't mean that it is.

ditto

?  what makes you think I don't want there to be a god/afterlife?  What have I posted that led you to that conclusion?
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: xyzzy on January 06, 2014, 03:53:56 PM
Xyzzy,  Should I have bolded the questions?

I did not invent God I just took the bible out of the equation.  I am proud of every word I've posted.  My beliefs don't hurt you or anybody else, not even me.  That's the way belief should be;  Harmless! ;)  The bible is not harmless.

If I, a mortal, can be loving then I am certain that our immortal creator is loving x 100! If God exists!

That's all you get until you answer my questions. :blank:

Or you can go ahead and admit you lack respect for us both because we believe in God!  Or you're problem with me is I'm too darn sweet!  Neither a good reason to disrespect someone!

Gosh, Junebug, you certainly could have bolded the questions, but I feel that all that would have accomplished was to draw even more attention to the fact that they did nothing to remedy the lack of support you have provided for your OP.

Further, rather than pursuing this strange narrative of Junebug the oppressed, it would be so much more helpful if you could, you know, provide support for your premise. But seeing as you insist...

You are correct, I did not answer your questions and the reason is that I considered them to be inappropriate and unhelpful in terms of furthering the discussion of your claim. Concerning OldChurchGuy. I can only repeat that I made that point in support of the position that it's perfectly possible to hold a contrary position, one based on faith, and still be a respected and well-liked member of this community. That you managed to turn that upon its head, is something I wonder if you shouldn't take some time to reflect upon.

Now, I'm going to make some comments in general because I would apply them to any member of this forum, not just the individual noted above.

Junebug, generally speaking, I don't think it's appropriate to ask one member to speak on-behalf of another, especially when that other is neither a participant in this section, nor in this thread. Further, to insist that one person make a personal statement regarding another is not only inappropriate, it's completely and utterly disrespectful to the other individual to do so.

Regarding yourself. Apparently the fact that I am willing to spend a not-inconsiderable amount of time working on posts, engaging your arguments, reading back on your previous replies, all in an attempt to move the conversation forward, means something different to you than it does to me. That's your prerogative, I suppose.

So, to answer your final question above, and in the only manner to which I think it dignifies a response: the fact that you would ask that, and that you would do so from the platform of demanding that someone defend themselves against the position you have assigned to them,[1] makes me consider if the individual in this thread with the least amount of respect for junebug72 - is you.

Now, may we please get back to the actual topic of this thread - that of you providing support for your claim?
 1. it's really a loaded question - another fallacy
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Ataraxia on January 07, 2014, 03:25:56 AM
Logic can be used to prove belief.  My logic is tight.

I, and I dare say we, beg to differ. 

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Yelp evidence could eventually be produced unlike the biblical claims of God!

So if it hasn't yet been produced, why believe it?

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I'll tell you what I'll provide some evidence when you do.  Go ahead show me some physics creating planets that support life and then the life that it creates.

I find this a very odd shifting of the burden, presumably because you believe in the "physics" that creates planets, only you add on an intelligence behind it to guide it - you know, the calculator behind the calculations, the scientific mind?

So I could, if I felt obliged and warranted, explain how planet formation works to the best of our knowledge, but one, what would be the point considering you can still accept these explanations but still plonk god behind these processes, and two, the burden is on you to show that an intelligence is strictly behind any process you can make up for planet formation. You're the one adding this extra bit on the end without justification.

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To me all the planets out there that do not have humans on them is all the proof I need that these laws need an operator to create life as we know it.

You won't find humans on other planets, unless we actually go there. Humans are an evolutionary product of earth, and even if somewhere out there in the cosmos there is a species on another planet that resembles a human down to DNA level, are they still classed as human?

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Your version of things there should be life on every planet!!!

My version of things? What is that exactly, and how do you come to the conclusion you have? You see, "my version", or what you might call "the observable world version", doesn't expect there to be life on every planet. Life will arise on a planet (or a moon or another potential celestial body) if the conditions are right for life to arise on that planet. That's what happened with earth. You seem to be in a position where the conditions can't ever be right unless some intelligence wants them to be so and makes them so. Yet, as you have said, there is not one morsel of evidence to show that this is the case, but we are to ditch all the knowledge gained from decades of painstaking research and investigation of the evidence and go with your "logic" because you (and you alone) say it is tight? Er, no thanks.

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I see those planets there on purpose as a protective shield keeping big asteroids and comets from demolishing our planet.

See Boots' football field and acorn analogy. Also, even if you had a point here, how would these planets protect us from a direct hit from a nearby (relatively speaking) gamma ray burst or pulsar? Do the planets in our solar system all have a share scheme in ozone or something?

Then we come to you being ignorant of the possibility of life existing elsewhere in our solar system. Europa, Enceladus, even Mars. God put these bodies there to protect earthly life from celestial bombardment? Seriously, pull the other one. As is clear from your projection of "my version", you're quite as ease with making stuff up on the spot.

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They were never meant to sustain human life.  Thinking that we could just move to one of them is just a way to keep letting scientist destroy this planet with their polluting fossil fuels!!!

As I've said above, humans are an evolutionary product of earth where the conditions are so that human life can be sustained on it. We fit the specific conditions that the earth currently holds, it doesn't work the other way around. And you are begging the question here by implying that these other planets were never "meant" to sustain human life. "Meant" implies purpose, and purpose requires something with active goals, which in this case is the god you have shoehorned in.

I can't take your statement regarding destroying this planet seriously. It is simply vapid and ignorant. I haven't heard anywhere that scientists are thinking "we could just move to one of them".

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The sun's life ending in 4 billion years can be avoided if we please God by loving one another, IMO.

As we've together already established that there currently is no evidence to support such an assertion, we can revert back to your burden of proof here. Ignoring that, I can say that this god of yours appears to be as callous as the bible one. While I agree with the sentiment of loving one another, doing it in order to please a god so that he'll stop our star turning into a red giant is not a good reason to love one another. It shouldn't take the appeasement of a god to want to do this, and any god who thinks it should so that he can stop us of from being annihilated, especially when he could do so without the proviso of doing what he'd like us to do, is morally deplorable.

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One more thing, believing in an afterlife does not make me think less of this one but quite the opposite!!!  It helps me understand why we should be kind to one another.  Even if your fellow man doesn't appreciate your kindness there is someone larger than them that does!

What you believe in the privacy of you own home and mind is your own business. If it gets you through the day, fine. However, when you expect that belief to hold reverence with others, you're going to have to do better than shouting "logic", making stuff up as you go along and pandering to your ignorance.
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on January 07, 2014, 09:16:32 AM
Hey X,

I hate to bust your bubble man but you are the one that inappropriately brought OCG into this discussion not me.   You told me to look at OCG I did, and that's what I think about it.   If OCG is as understanding as I think he is,  he noticed I said no offense!   You're just pissed off because I called you out on your bull.  As I said before you're showing your weakness. 

I don't feel oppressed.  There ain't nothing you can dish out that I can't handle.  If you call me an attention whore be prepared for the fighting side of me!!! 

Whether or not you respect OCG is not my problem but I'm glad you do.  You want to prove something to me show me some respect for being the awesome person I am.   Now that would be something to brag about. LOL :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: And you know what...no I ain't going to tell you out here.  I will PM you.

GB, I take it back.  This guy is almost as bad as you!   where's the joy!!!  where's the laughter!!!   Where's the love!!!   Look up dreary in the dictionary and this place should be there.  I thought atheism made people happy.  Well obviously not! 

Try this smiling makes you "feel" better put some joy in your heart and come back to see me!  Yelp try smiling while posting your posts would be much more compelling!

Your post style is terrible!  You should try a few more drafts.  Damn that was easy.  I just made that shit up and posted it.  It was fun too!  I got so much satisfaction I could just pop right now! 


Ataraxia, 

Please refer to the wikipedia definition of cognitive perception or just refer to the thread I posted about perception it is right there.  Belief is perception and logic is used to prove it.  If your beliefs harm society then they are not good beliefs.  I have never harmed anyone but contraire I have been a positive influence to everyone I encounter.  Even if by only offering a smile and respect! 

Yelp I don't just make this shit up y'all! wait maybe I do, and you know what that's ok I own it, proud to.  The only person I have to blame if my beliefs hurt someone is myself.

I'm just a softy.  There ain't nothing wrong with that. ooooooooo I am beautiful no matter what they say,  no words can't bring me down oooooo,  I am beautiful, I am smart, I am gay,  I am loved!!!  I am BLESSED!!!

Now back to logical evidence.  Are you ready for it.  Take a deep breathe now.... READ...  I said that to have children in a cruel world with violent weather, death and all that stuff would be amoral in a Godless world.   I hope you're not on the floor right now...that would suck!lol :laugh:



Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Ataraxia on January 07, 2014, 09:36:32 AM
Ataraxia, 

Please refer to the wikipedia definition of cognitive perception or just refer to the thread I posted about perception it is right there.  Belief is perception and logic is used to prove it.  If your beliefs harm society then they are not good beliefs.  I have never harmed anyone but contraire I have been a positive influence to everyone I encounter.  Even if by only offering a smile and respect! 

Yelp I don't just make this shit up y'all! wait maybe I do, and you know what that's ok I own it, proud to.  The only person I have to blame if my beliefs hurt someone is myself.

I'm just a softy.  There ain't nothing wrong with that. ooooooooo I am beautiful no matter what they say,  no words can't bring me down oooooo,  I am beautiful, I am smart, I am gay,  I am loved!!!  I am BLESSED!!!

Now back to logical evidence.  Are you ready for it.  Take a deep breathe now.... READ...  I said that to have children in a cruel world with violent weather, death and all that stuff would be amoral in a Godless world.   I hope you're not on the floor right now...that would suck!lol :laugh:

Thanks for responding to me without actually responding to my post.
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on January 07, 2014, 10:04:42 AM
The one that might have created us! 

that...was not very helpful.

Quote
Quote
once again, just because you want something to be true, doesn't mean that it is.

ditto

?  what makes you think I don't want there to be a god/afterlife?  What have I posted that led you to that conclusion?

I know, right?  I'm sorry boots.  You deserve better than that but then again so do I.  I was being scenical. 

You know what I am going to say this about evidence.  If you want it you go get it it's a free country.  I'm not going to do all the work for you.  I have done my homework.  It's a personal choice to believe.
Logic- It is not something you make someone do.
Logic- You don't frighten people into believing in a Loving God you show them Love.  Enlightening isn't it! ;)  In fact it would be against everything I believe in.
Logic-  I believe God loves us all just the way we are!!!
Logic_ I bet God admires everyone here for being so brave.
Logic- I think the violence breaks God's heart.
Logic- I think we must figure this out on our own. 
Logic-If God has to interfere that means we failed as the human race. :'(
Logic- I think I would not have these thoughts if not for some reason.   
Logic-I believe that stuff because I believe God is much more perfect than I could ever dream of being.  I have my flaws I am only human.   I will not judge you that is out of my league! 


Please open up a window in here!  Damn it's too cold!  Up to 0 getting there!  A nut just rolled down the roof. 

To answer your question...Nobody forces you to be atheist it's a choice.  Maybe I made an improper assumption?
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on January 07, 2014, 10:32:00 AM
Ataraxia, 

Please refer to the wikipedia definition of cognitive perception or just refer to the thread I posted about perception it is right there.  Belief is perception and logic is used to prove it.  If your beliefs harm society then they are not good beliefs.  I have never harmed anyone but contraire I have been a positive influence to everyone I encounter.  Even if by only offering a smile and respect! 

Yelp I don't just make this shit up y'all! wait maybe I do, and you know what that's ok I own it, proud to.  The only person I have to blame if my beliefs hurt someone is myself.

I'm just a softy.  There ain't nothing wrong with that. ooooooooo I am beautiful no matter what they say,  no words can't bring me down oooooo,  I am beautiful, I am smart, I am gay,  I am loved!!!  I am BLESSED!!!

Now back to logical evidence.  Are you ready for it.  Take a deep breathe now.... READ...  I said that to have children in a cruel world with violent weather, death and all that stuff would be amoral in a Godless world.   I hope you're not on the floor right now...that would suck!lol :laugh:

Thanks for responding to me without actually responding to my post.


Yes I did.  I'm freaking innocent man! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:  You didn't receive the hidden message?  Must be something wrong with your third eye!

Your Welcome smarty pants! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:  See words can't get me down.  There's you some evidence. 

I can only give what I have.  I am an itsy bitsy piece of an enormous, humongous puzzle.

Seriously...My defense of the not responding charge... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: excuse me...

1.I exposed the error in the opening remark. 
2.I gave supporting evidence of that fact
3.I gave you examples of sound logic
4.Now that's a dodge...I'm talking about you here! lol
5.I know I'm being a smart a.. and I should stop now...more evidence


Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Boots on January 07, 2014, 11:56:18 AM
I'm pretty much skipping the rest of your post, jb, because we keep going over the same ground.  (you're asked for evidnece of your assertions, and you're shfting the burdon)  But I'll answer these two.

Logic- I think I would not have these thoughts if not for some reason.   

I've said this before, and I'll repeat it here.  There are 2 things that truly separate humans from other animals.
1) opposalbe thumbs
2) speech

it's #2 that allows us to think abstractly, create questions for which there are no (or extremely difficult) answers.  The reason you have these thoughts is because you can, that's it.

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To answer your question...Nobody forces you to be atheist it's a choice.  Maybe I made an improper assumption?

I'd like nothing better than to believe the feel-good "everybody (who believes) wins!!!" assertions you are espousing.  They are simply nonsense to me, though, and defy real, hard logic and observable reality.  and I disagree with the "choice" thing. It's no more choice than to believe in gravity.  Or in evolution for that matter: "belief" in evolution is simply accepting the evidence that is presented, and rejecting the nonsense that anti-evolutionists spew.  I accepet evolution, gravity, and a godless universe as the best explanations for how things are/work in this world/universe to the best of our knowledge.

and I'm perfectly happy overall (I had a rough 2013 and am still feeling the effects of trying to recover from it, but nothing like what you and others are currently going through so I can only complain so much).  I have no problem with the idea that i'll be GONE once i'm dead.  Not sure why that's such an issue for folks...
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Traveler on January 07, 2014, 12:19:42 PM
...Nobody forces you to be atheist it's a choice...

You are correct that no one is forcing me to be an atheist.

You could not be more wrong about it being a choice. I can no more choose to believe in god than you can choose to believe there are purple unicorns in my back yard. Go ahead, try it...
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: xyzzy on January 07, 2014, 12:59:23 PM
junebug, this thread started with you claiming that your god was possible and linking it to the big bang. We now seem to be all over the place. You are bring in planets, evolution, intelligence, as well as asking others to provide explanations -- whereas we are seeking your explanation, but above and beyond an appeal to some cosmic "intelligence" or some other manifestation of the argument from design.

So, going back a step or two, I'd appreciate some answers to my previous questions. Now, it may be as I queried earlier, that you don't have these answers. In which case, just say so:

Now you've said "This Is Possible". Well, lots of things are "possible" if you misuse and abuse the term "possible". It's "possible" that less than 8 minutes ago the sun exploded. In fact, seeing as we have a mechanism of action as to why we might not yet be aware of that, I'm going to posit that it even though is absurdly unlikely to have happened, it's still almost infinitely more likely to be true than any claim where someone simply says "It's Possible!" because I should keep an open mind to it being possible. But I say that only based on your not yet having provided the detail as to how it is possible.

So, embracing science, please help us all understand:
  • what is "god" made from?
  • how was "god" made?
  • at what point in the big bang was god made?
  • what did "god" do then?
  • what does "god" do now?
  • the mechanism by which "god" accomplishes his tasks?
  • how we go about testing that?

edit: It's possible that your comment regarding labs and time was the answer, despite that fact that I commented otherwise? If that's the case, please clarify that you can't answer these questions.
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on January 08, 2014, 12:20:04 PM
junebug, this thread started with you claiming that your god was possible and linking it to the big bang. We now seem to be all over the place. You are bring in planets, evolution, intelligence, as well as asking others to provide explanations -- whereas we are seeking your explanation, but above and beyond an appeal to some cosmic "intelligence" or some other manifestation of the argument from design.

So, going back a step or two, I'd appreciate some answers to my previous questions. Now, it may be as I queried earlier, that you don't have these answers. In which case, just say so:

Now you've said "This Is Possible". Well, lots of things are "possible" if you misuse and abuse the term "possible". It's "possible" that less than 8 minutes ago the sun exploded. In fact, seeing as we have a mechanism of action as to why we might not yet be aware of that, I'm going to posit that it even though is absurdly unlikely to have happened, it's still almost infinitely more likely to be true than any claim where someone simply says "It's Possible!" because I should keep an open mind to it being possible. But I say that only based on your not yet having provided the detail as to how it is possible.

So, embracing science, please help us all understand:
  • what is "god" made from?
  • how was "god" made?
  • at what point in the big bang was god made?
  • what did "god" do then?
  • what does "god" do now?
  • the mechanism by which "god" accomplishes his tasks?
  • how we go about testing that?

edit: It's possible that your comment regarding labs and time was the answer, despite that fact that I commented otherwise? If that's the case, please clarify that you can't answer these questions.


1.Elements, amino acids
2.life giving elements super condensed
3.when it started
4.everything possible
5.love us
6.Physics, Chemistry
7.Logic, logic, logic

Look I'm not Einstein, I just had the idea a few weeks ago.  Things like that take time and lots and lots of money.  hummm I do need a new career! lol
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on January 08, 2014, 12:27:38 PM
...Nobody forces you to be atheist it's a choice...

You are correct that no one is forcing me to be an atheist.

You could not be more wrong about it being a choice. I can no more choose to believe in god than you can choose to believe there are purple unicorns in my back yard. Go ahead, try it...

I could no longer believe there is no God than you could believe I went to the moon and back yesterday! 

You were raised atheist right.  Nope you never had a choice. 
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Boots on January 08, 2014, 12:41:31 PM
...Nobody forces you to be atheist it's a choice...

You are correct that no one is forcing me to be an atheist.

You could not be more wrong about it being a choice. I can no more choose to believe in god than you can choose to believe there are purple unicorns in my back yard. Go ahead, try it...

I could no longer believe there is no God than you could believe I went to the moon and back yesterday! 

You were raised atheist right.  Nope you never had a choice.

I won't speak for Traveller, but I was raised Roman Catholic, and contemplated priesthood as a late teen.

I only had a "choice" once I decided I had a choice, during/after my college education.
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: xyzzy on January 08, 2014, 06:32:11 PM
1.Elements, amino acids
2.life giving elements super condensed
3.when it started
4.everything possible
5.love us
6.Physics, Chemistry
7.Logic, logic, logic

1) Well, JB, this tells us that this god is not supernatural, and we should be able to detect it. So why can't we? Also, unfortunately, none of those things were present at the time of the big bang.

2) No, we know that isn't true (a) for the initial conditions and (b) it does not fit with any of the cosmological theories that are based on observation, science, and - frankly - reality.

3) No, we know that isn't true. At all. See and (1) and (2)

4) again, you are taking a position, working backwards, and inserting a god to suit your needs.

5) I see... and you know this how? I know it's what you want to believe.

6) No, see 1,2, and 3

7) We disagree on what logic is then. Logic isn't forcing things into holes where they don't fit.

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Look I'm not Einstein, I just had the idea a few weeks ago.  Things like that take time and lots and lots of money.  hummm I do need a new career! lol

I'm not Einstein either - nice to meet you. However, you are claiming something is possible, you are stating it happened at (x) but nothing that we know supports your contention. In fact, all evidence points against that.

junebug, I understand this may seem harsh, I'm not trying to be so. But how on earth do you expect people to respond to you when you claim "It's Possible!" then, when asked to explain how, you respond with a 2 or 3 word explanation that flies in the face of known science?

I already tried to give you examples of things that are "possible" but so unlikely we can assume that they won't occur. We need to focus on what is probable or likely. Otherwise we can all just exclaim "it's possible" and spend our lives arguing about the why-nots. In this case, we are into the territory of reversing the burden of proof. You would need new physics and new chemistry for the above to work. Possible? Sure, if you mean as possible as I am writing this from the back of a Unicorn and beaming my thoughts direct to the server via telepathy. That's "possible" isn't it, JB?

You said it's a new idea, I can respect that. I would suggest that if you really think it's possible that you spend some time learning what we already know in cosmology (I don't mean the thumbnail sketch), at that point you'll understand why it's not, or you'll be able to articulate this new science that supports your claim.

Your explanation, to be taken seriously, needs to explain all that we know now, in as much or more detail as we currently possess, and it needs a way to be tested and shown to be more accurate than any other approach. Sorry, about that, but reality cares as little about what I want to believe as it does about you, and everyone else. That you don't have the money or resources is a common rebuttal from the making-things-up-crowd who, for example, propose speculative science to support Homeopathy but there's always a reason why it can't be tested and so on. Funny how that happens.

You see, I strongly get the impression that this belief of yours is important to you. So important that you keep looking for ways to turn it from a belief into a fact. But, the approach of just batting away rejections and going off and making up another scenario, and another, won't help you.

In other threads you have mentioned how you won't let your beliefs be taken away from you. Well, I'm down with that and, as my theist friends will attest, it's something I simply don't wish to do. However, once you or them start telling me that their beliefs are supported by science, then I do the same thing I do with any discussion on "science".

At that point I want to understand this new-thingy. I'll ask questions. If my understanding conflicts with theirs, I'll ask more questions; perhaps my understanding is wrong and that's a learning experience. However, inserting speculative versions of "science" tailor-made to fit a particular need, ones that contradict with what we know, ones that have no support for them, not even a working model, then we jump into the realms of pseudoscience which is usually stuff people make up specifically to shore up a belief masquerading as a fact.

Here, with the greatest respect, it's unfortunate but you don't seem to understand the science behind what you claim. It is, after all, complicated. How you proceed from here, though, that's up to you.
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on January 24, 2014, 08:23:32 AM
1 I do not masquerade my beliefs as fact.  I don't know why this keeps coming up.  I figured it out.  Man you have to be careful how you say things.  My title here is stated as a fact.  I'll get it one day. ;)
 
2 I've said many times I believe God operates within the laws of nature.

3 I realize I should've titled this thread different, it does imply a knowledge I do not have.  I can not say it is factually possible.

4 It was an idea and I really respect the opinions here on scientific matters.

5 I think even if we found that God was not created here it's an idea worth exploring.  I'm curious. 

6 What kind of wonders do you think may be possible out there?  A serious response please. :D  Using your understanding of scientific fact.
Just hypothetical stuff.

7 I'm sorry it took so long to respond.  I am glad I took my time though.  I think I learned something here.



JB
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on January 24, 2014, 08:30:33 AM
X what do you mean when you say these things were not present at the time of the Big Bang? 

I mean EXACTLY what things were not present?
Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: Graybeard on January 24, 2014, 09:02:30 AM
2 I've said many times I believe God operates within the laws of nature.
All operations done within the laws of nature are natural
God operates within the laws of nature.
Therefore God is not supernatural.

If God is not supernatural then something natural could replicate his actions.

If God is not supernatural then is He alive or dead?
If He is alive, he requires a source of nourishment.
If He is alive, he requires a physical and corporeal existence.

You could hypothesise that God created the universe and then, in a terrible accident of His own making, fell into a giant star and was obliterated. However if this happened, it would be a question of when this happened.

I have said it before and will say it again, the supernatural cannot exist permanently. Beings who people claim are supernatural are like illusionists: it is said that they do what appears to be remarkable but there must be a rational explanation for their tricks. Once you know how the trick is done, there is no "supernatural" only "natural". If the tricks defy what we know to be natural laws, then they did not happen.

Title: Re: This Is Possible!
Post by: junebug72 on January 24, 2014, 09:27:49 AM
2 I've said many times I believe God operates within the laws of nature.
All operations done within the laws of nature are natural
God operates within the laws of nature.
Therefore God is not supernatural.

If God is not supernatural then something natural could replicate his actions.

If God is not supernatural then is He alive or dead?
If He is alive, he requires a source of nourishment.
If He is alive, he requires a physical and corporeal existence.

You could hypothesise that God created the universe and then, in a terrible accident of His own making, fell into a giant star and was obliterated. However if this happened, it would be a question of when this happened.

I have said it before and will say it again, the supernatural cannot exist permanently. Beings who people claim are supernatural are like illusionists: it is said that they do what appears to be remarkable but there must be a rational explanation for their tricks. Once you know how the trick is done, there is no "supernatural" only "natural". If the tricks defy what we know to be natural laws, then they did not happen.

I don't disagree with you here. 

Why go straight to God's death GB? 

I see it like this.  I see God as being brighter than the sun.  You just can't get too close to the sun.  Our physical bodies can't handle it.  I believe our spirits can and that's why we must transform from a physical being to a spiritual being. 

I believe we have duplicated "some" of God's work.  We are cloning plants and animals. 
 
I really hope God didn't fall into a star.  That was super gloomy.  :'(.........But point well taken.  Thanks for sharing.


JB