whywontgodhealamputees.com

Main Discussion Zone => Biblical Contradictions => Topic started by: Petey on October 17, 2013, 01:44:58 PM

Title: Loaves and fishes
Post by: Petey on October 17, 2013, 01:44:58 PM
Not a true contradiction per se, but this still seemed like the most appropriate place to bring this up.

Let's say for the sake of argument that the stories are true, granting that Jesus magically multiplied the food, and the disciples were just as surprised the second time around as the first.  This still does nothing to address exactly how they were eating those fish.

First of all, where did these fish come from?  Who carries fish around with them for a snack?  Bread I can see, but fish???

The stories make it sound like they were whole fish.  How on earth would they prepare it?  Were there also people carrying filet knives with them, cleaning the fish as they magically multiplied?  Did they build a fire to cook it all?  Or were people just chomping into raw fish?

The author could have used any fruit, vegetable, or liquid, and it would have at least given the stories some semblance of believability.  As they are written, they are ludicrous entirely apart from the magical bits and bad character building.
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: Nick on October 17, 2013, 01:47:10 PM
Jesus would never do that today.  He would call them all freeloaders.  Bitch at them about "personal responsibility" and tell them to get a job and quit sucking off the government tit. ;)
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: One Above All on October 17, 2013, 01:51:47 PM
(http://www.explosm.net/db/files/Comics/Rob/fishloaves.png)
Humans: 1
Jesus: 0
(and he wants us to eat his body and drink his blood, but he won't eat a butt loaf)
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: jdawg70 on October 17, 2013, 04:01:42 PM
Not a true contradiction per se, but this still seemed like the most appropriate place to bring this up.

Let's say for the sake of argument that the stories are true, granting that Jesus magically multiplied the food, and the disciples were just as surprised the second time around as the first.  This still does nothing to address exactly how they were eating those fish.

First of all, where did these fish come from?  Who carries fish around with them for a snack?  Bread I can see, but fish???

The stories make it sound like they were whole fish.  How on earth would they prepare it?  Were there also people carrying filet knives with them, cleaning the fish as they magically multiplied?  Did they build a fire to cook it all?  Or were people just chomping into raw fish?

The author could have used any fruit, vegetable, or liquid, and it would have at least given the stories some semblance of believability.  As they are written, they are ludicrous entirely apart from the magical bits and bad character building.
Like all evilution-lovin' secularists, you are misinterpreting the passage.  When reading this with your heart open to god and his spirit, it is clear.  When you let the holy spirit into your heart, you will see that it actually reads breaded fish.  This passage glorifies the lord, and lets it be known to all that he is the maker of the first fish stick.  That way, all Christians of the world can now know that there is an easy to make protein-hearty food that can be consumed on Fridays during lent.

Duh doy.
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: Graybeard on October 17, 2013, 04:21:50 PM
First of all, where did these fish come from?  Who carries fish around with them for a snack?  Bread I can see, but fish???

The stories make it sound like they were whole fish.  How on earth would they prepare it?  Were there also people carrying filet knives with them, cleaning the fish as they magically multiplied?  Did they build a fire to cook it all?  Or were people just chomping into raw fish?

http://www.researchandmarkets.com/reports/2652874/dried_fish_and_seafood_market_in_israel_to_2017.pdf The fish is dried. I have eaten it and it is delicious, far better than jerky.

The real problem with the stories is that they are ludicrously stupid. The mistake is made by even trying to explain them. Were I a Christian apologist, I would explain that both these stories are, in fact, merely a repetition of each other. The original story was a parable, not a miracle. The idea is that if people will only unselfishly support each other and give what they have left, or that for which they have no need, to others, then waste is removed and all get a fair share and be happy.

I am not a Christian apologist, so I won't mention this.
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: Dr H on October 17, 2013, 04:40:23 PM
Jesus would never do that today.

That's probably true.

If Jesus were around today he's be multiplying Buffalo-wing-flavored beef jerky sticks and nacho Doritos™.

Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: nogodsforme on October 17, 2013, 05:05:15 PM
Jesus would never do that today.

That's probably true.

If Jesus were around today he's be multiplying Buffalo-wing-flavored beef jerky sticks and nacho Doritos™.

Praise the lord and pass the Pepto-Bismol. :P
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 18, 2013, 05:23:36 AM
You can eat raw fish rather easily, the organs are nasty though...
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: Mrjason on October 18, 2013, 06:00:33 AM
I used to try and rationalise the stories in the bible.
Why loaves? becasue back in the day they used unlevend bread which would have risen in the sun giving the apperance of magically multiplying. Why fish? Because they were hanging out by a lake with a bunch of fishermen.

of course I realise now that with it being bullshit it doesn't really matter which arbitary food stuffs were used as its fiction anyway. he may as well said that it was Big Kahuna Burgers and fries.
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: The Gawd on November 25, 2013, 09:36:04 AM
I used to try and rationalise the stories in the bible.
Why loaves? becasue back in the day they used unlevend bread which would have risen in the sun giving the apperance of magically multiplying. Why fish? Because they were hanging out by a lake with a bunch of fishermen.

of course I realise now that with it being bullshit it doesn't really matter which arbitary food stuffs were used as its fiction anyway. he may as well said that it was Big Kahuna Burgers and fries.

That iiiis a tasty burger
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: Nick on November 25, 2013, 03:06:26 PM
He would have been better off coming up with 5000 happy meals.
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: Hatter23 on November 25, 2013, 03:17:18 PM

http://www.researchandmarkets.com/reports/2652874/dried_fish_and_seafood_market_in_israel_to_2017.pdf The fish is dried. I have eaten it and it is delicious, far better than jerky.

And has been a protein staple of the Middle East for thousands of years.
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: ParkingPlaces on November 25, 2013, 04:46:48 PM
Jesus would never do that today.  He would call them all freeloaders.  Bitch at them about "personal responsibility" and tell them to get a job and quit sucking off the government tit. ;)

Well, even if he tried the health department wouldn't let him serve unapproved food, and the FDA would climb all over his ass for not labeling the source. Plus if the fish came from the Pacific, they would glow in the dark and stuff and nobody would be all the surprised if a few mutated into something bigger and uglier.

The loaves thing is great. Well, the greatest thing since before sliced bread.
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: nogodsforme on November 25, 2013, 05:23:46 PM
Did they all sit on the ground and eat or were chairs and tables magically brought in? Were there any utensils and napkins? What about beverages? Condiments, too--I like hot sauce on my fish. And what about the veggie option?

I see a whole Jesus Catering and Picnic Supply thing going on here.
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: hickdive on November 26, 2013, 08:09:24 AM
Yup, absolutely no-one else brought food? Aye, right.

What happened was that the call for food went out and everyone thought, "fuck that, I brought enough for me and I ain't sharing', except for one wee guy who was a bit too naive.

When the basket of food gets passed round most folk pretend to take something but, because the whole guilt-trip thing has worked on them they actually put a bit of their own food INTO the basket.

Hey presto, food for all and quite a bit left over.
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: wolfunchained on December 08, 2013, 04:13:48 AM
I used to believe all the miracles of jesus including this one becauase i was told the story over and over for well over 20 years since i was born. It takes serious deprogramming to start thinking realisticly. Its just not possible to feed 5000 people with 5  loaves of bread and 2 fish. Anyone who has never questioned how its possible or how it actually happened has blind faith in my opinion. Doesnt make it wrong, but i believe what i see.
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: Dr H on December 10, 2013, 03:53:22 PM
Did they all sit on the ground and eat or were chairs and tables magically brought in?
There was only one card table and three folding chairs for the guest speakers, but those also were multiplied until there was sufficient furniture for 5000.

Once you've go that energy-into-matter thing going, form is a mere detail.  :)
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: Andy S. on December 18, 2013, 10:24:37 AM
I used to believe all the miracles of jesus including this one becauase i was told the story over and over for well over 20 years since i was born. It takes serious deprogramming to start thinking realisticly. Its just not possible to feed 5000 people with 5  loaves of bread and 2 fish. Anyone who has never questioned how its possible or how it actually happened has blind faith in my opinion. Doesnt make it wrong, but i believe what i see.



I used to believe all the miracles of Jesus too.  I believed in the supernatural with all my heart, mind, soul (whatever that is) and strength.  It was never the miracles that bothered me because you either believe in the supernatural or you don't. 

So it's not what Jesus DID DO that bothered me, it's what Jesus DID NOT do when he visited this earth.  Non Stamp Collector hits the nail on the head in this youtube video.  If you only have one minute, the section that relates to this thread is from 5:30 to 6:30.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOfjkl-3SNE
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 18, 2013, 10:33:31 AM
I once caught a fish WITH a loaf...

To add, can someone calculate how much energy would need to be condensed to make about 1000 fish/loaves of bread?
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: Hatter23 on December 18, 2013, 10:39:14 AM
I once caught a fish WITH a loaf...

To add, can someone calculate how much energy would need to be condensed to make about 1000 fish/loaves of bread?

That really depends, are we talking about was it created using air, or was organic matter allowed?
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 18, 2013, 10:46:47 AM
Using nothing more than solar energy.
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: Hatter23 on December 18, 2013, 10:51:42 AM
Using nothing more than solar energy.

Hrrm. It would then depend on the amount of energy it would take to slow down light into matter, and I don't think any scientist has any idea on that.

Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 18, 2013, 10:54:18 AM
If we got said information, we could make a lowball estimation a "gods" power.
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: jdawg70 on December 18, 2013, 11:04:26 AM
I once caught a fish WITH a loaf...

To add, can someone calculate how much energy would need to be condensed to make about 1000 fish/loaves of bread?

42
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: G-Roll on December 18, 2013, 11:40:53 AM
I once caught a fish WITH a loaf...

To add, can someone calculate how much energy would need to be condensed to make about 1000 fish/loaves of bread?

I once ate a fish and made a loaf.
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 18, 2013, 11:42:21 AM
I once made loaf and ate a fish.
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: G-Roll on December 18, 2013, 11:49:03 AM
At the same time?
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 18, 2013, 11:56:58 AM
No, not at the same time.

But now i really want to do that...
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: G-Roll on December 18, 2013, 12:00:51 PM
I think we have different definitions of making a loaf. Usually people say take a loaf, but it sounds weird to me to take it with you. You put it in the toilet for a reason...  :P
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 18, 2013, 12:13:45 PM
By loaf i implied feces, but meant bread...

Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: Dr H on December 18, 2013, 05:26:26 PM
I once caught a fish WITH a loaf...

To add, can someone calculate how much energy would need to be condensed to make about 1000 fish/loaves of bread?
Sure.

Assume an average loaf of bread masses about 0.5 kg, and an average trout-sized fish masses about 2 kg.
1000 of each gives you 2500 kg of mass.
Apply Einstein's energy/mass equivalence equation:  E = mc^2, where 'c' is approximately 3 x 10^8 m/s:

E = 2500 kg x (3x10^8 m/s)^2
   = 2500 kg x (9x10^16 m^2/s^2)
   = 2.25 x 10^20 kg/m^2/s^2

1 kg/m^2/s^2 is one Joule, so the energy requirement is 225 quintillion Joules.

To put that into perspective, that's about 62.5 trillion kilowatt-hours, or about as much electricity as the entire United States would use in about 17,000 years, based on 2010 rates of use.

Of course this just gives the energy required for the requisite mass, and doesn't take into consideration how much energy might be necessary to effect the actual conversion.


That Jesus, man, he was one POWERFUL dude.


 :)


Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: jdawg70 on December 18, 2013, 06:55:35 PM
...so the energy requirement is 225 quintillion Joules.
So...about the calorie content of a box of Thin Mints girl scout cookies.  Good to know.
Title: Re: Loaves and fishes
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 18, 2013, 11:18:24 PM
Sure.

Assume an average loaf of bread masses about 0.5 kg, and an average trout-sized fish masses about 2 kg.
1000 of each gives you 2500 kg of mass.
Apply Einstein's energy/mass equivalence equation:  E = mc^2, where 'c' is approximately 3 x 10^8 m/s:

E = 2500 kg x (3x10^8 m/s)^2
   = 2500 kg x (9x10^16 m^2/s^2)
   = 2.25 x 10^20 kg/m^2/s^2

1 kg/m^2/s^2 is one Joule, so the energy requirement is 225 quintillion Joules.

To put that into perspective, that's about 62.5 trillion kilowatt-hours, or about as much electricity as the entire United States would use in about 17,000 years, based on 2010 rates of use.

Of course this just gives the energy required for the requisite mass, and doesn't take into consideration how much energy might be necessary to effect the actual conversion.


That Jesus, man, he was one POWERFUL dude.


 :)

Give this man a applause!

So in one second, Jesus apparently added a metric shit load of energy to earth...not in the form of technology, or medicine...
But in fish...and bread.