whywontgodhealamputees.com

Main Discussion Zone => Why Won't God Heal Amputees? => Topic started by: Lectus on October 17, 2013, 12:48:50 PM

Title: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Lectus on October 17, 2013, 12:48:50 PM
That was a pastor response to that question:

Question: Why won't God heal amputees?
Answer: Because God can make you win at life without legs or arms. He doesn't need you to be perfect. He can do anything.

What do you think about this argument?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Dante on October 17, 2013, 12:56:36 PM
That was a pastor response to that question:

Question: Why won't God heal amputees?
Answer: Because God can make you win at life without legs or arms. He doesn't need you to be perfect. He can do anything.

What do you think about this argument?

It's a non answer.

Why wont god make you win at life with terminal cancer? Dementia? Alzheimer's?

The pastor's trying to evade the point of the question, assuming he believes god heals other afflictions.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Jag on October 17, 2013, 01:11:26 PM
I think it would be reasonable to have the pastor who gave that answer go ahead and run it by an amputee to see what they think.

If God can make you a winner regardless of the number of limbs you have, why take some away in the first place? Why not give one or two back to the ones who ask?

And how does one "win" at life?

Pfft. Cop-out. I'd expect better from an Ambassador for the Lord.  ;D
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: neopagan on October 17, 2013, 01:32:32 PM
Ask him to remove a couple of his legs...

I don't think he's an Ambassador... more like an embassy motor pool driver :)
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Aaron123 on October 17, 2013, 01:38:49 PM
Ask him how this situation is any different than one where no god exists.  In both cases, we're trying to "win at life" on our own.  So what's the difference?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Nick on October 17, 2013, 01:44:39 PM
Simple, you win in life by drinking the koolaid and spreading the word...by which the church gets $$$.  The people get the message, "man, if an amputee can have faith, then I can also".
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: William on October 17, 2013, 03:03:01 PM
The word "pastor" has another meaning ... "smooth talking tithe-dependent parasite".

Think about it - these parasites (any clergy really) literally feed and live and prosper and party off people who need comfort and hope.
Not surprising they're slick at dispensing comfort and hope.  It's false hope and fake comfort - but the vulnerable are the softest targets and look so good on the books.

Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Nick on October 17, 2013, 03:22:21 PM
And as if that is not enough they come up with these "revivals" to make sure the flock is worked up and ready to "give".  One going on this weekend in my little town.  Saw the flier for it at the post office today.  Called "Simple Jesus".
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: screwtape on October 17, 2013, 03:35:05 PM
That was a pastor response to that question:

Question: Why won't God heal amputees?
Answer: Because God can make you win at life without legs or arms. He doesn't need you to be perfect. He can do anything.

What do you think about this argument?

It is either dodges the question or misunderstands it.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on October 17, 2013, 03:52:54 PM
I'm thinking back to the guy I went to high school with, who was hurt bad about a year after we graduated. Like, put into a coma, where he stayed until his death five years later.

I happened in less than a second, via a bad car wreck.

Apparently god didn't need him to be perfect. Or need him to be anything else either. Life is a bitch when you've been t-boned by a guy who ran a stop sign. Especially if there is indeed a god who doesn't care.

Of course, if he is real, he stopped caring way back when he made rattlesnakes and grizzly bears and mosquitos.

If he isn't real, all of the above simply falls into the "sh*t happens" category, which makes a lot more sense.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: One Above All on October 17, 2013, 03:54:03 PM
And how does one "win" at life?

Quote from: Illyria
To never die, and to conquer all... That is winning.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Benny on October 17, 2013, 04:12:14 PM
It is either dodges the question or misunderstands it.

Definitely not a misunderstanding.  Rephrasing the answer:

"Why won't God heal amputees?"
"Because he doesn't feel like it."

Dodging the question is a generous way to put it.  I think it's at the intersection of "intentional ignorance" and "spitting in the face of amputees."

(Edit: hit send button too early)
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: nogodsforme on October 17, 2013, 05:08:30 PM
My teen daughter, looking over my shoulder, just asked, "Hey, why won't god heal amputees?" I will tell her to ask her Sunday school teacher this week. Heh heh heh.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 18, 2013, 05:07:45 AM
To OP.

The argument is horridly invalid.
As while some amputees do not care about their loss of a limb, some do, so why don't these people get their limbs.
After all, if they pray for it, god must answer regardless of the person asking.
As long as you have the faith of a mustard seed he must answer...according to the bible, heh.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: screwtape on October 18, 2013, 09:24:54 AM
Definitely not a misunderstanding. 

eh, I'm a little more generous.  People are lazy thinkers.  It is how we evolved.  It takes practice and discipline to really think through questions.  Mainly what happens is our intuitive brain comes up with an easy answer and then puts the rational brain to work justifying it.  So I think it is likely they did not think about the question very hard because they came with with an answer they liked fairly easily.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Nam on October 18, 2013, 05:36:55 PM
That was a pastor response to that question:

Question: Why won't God heal amputees?
Answer: Because God can make you win at life without legs or arms. He doesn't need you to be perfect. He can do anything.

What do you think about this argument?

If Biblegod  can "do anything" then, it can give back arms and legs.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Lectus on October 18, 2013, 06:08:12 PM
That was a pastor response to that question:

Question: Why won't God heal amputees?
Answer: Because God can make you win at life without legs or arms. He doesn't need you to be perfect. He can do anything.

What do you think about this argument?

If Biblegod  can "do anything" then, it can give back arms and legs.

-Nam

It's not his will. -- A christian would say.

 &)
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 18, 2013, 08:28:28 PM
Silliness.

God never said life will be an easy breezy walk in the park. The Bible says that the sun shines on the just and unjust and the rain falls on the just and unjust.

Believers don't get a free pass out of suffering. Suffering is a test of our faith. Look at how many atheists use the problem of evil as a reason for God not existing. These people failed the test. There are amputees out there who praise God every single day and don't care about their missing limbs. These passed the test.

The question is based on a false assumption that God is supposed to never allow anyone to suffer. This is simply not true. Bible is flooded with examples of believers suffering hardships. True believers see it as a hill to climb. Non-believers see the hill and don't even bother to climb it.

I have seen amputees with one hand work a job better than someone with 2 hands. Look at how many people are collecting disability payments for no reason. These people need to suck it up and quit whining. There's people with one hand working 9-5 jobs and others are on the couch all day watching TV collecting free money with 2 hands with remote in one hand and chips in the other.

Just pure silliness.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 18, 2013, 08:33:07 PM
That was a pastor response to that question:

Question: Why won't God heal amputees?
Answer: Because God can make you win at life without legs or arms. He doesn't need you to be perfect. He can do anything.

What do you think about this argument?

If Biblegod  can "do anything" then, it can give back arms and legs.

-Nam

God spreads the gifts out to species. Salamanders can regenerate limbs. Humans can't. That's how God made it. other species have stronger jaws than us. Humans have sentience, other species don't.

This is God spreading out his gifts over different species.

of course God could regenerate limbs if he wanted to, but then the process would most likely be the same way he does it for salamanders. Then atheists would say "No miracle! it's a natural process!" This is what they already do with the salamanders.....
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: natlegend on October 18, 2013, 09:02:14 PM
There are amputees out there who praise God every single day and don't care about their missing limbs.

Name one.

As while some amputees do not care about their loss of a limb... <snip>

Name one.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 18, 2013, 09:13:01 PM
Name one.

Okay...after a bad google search i got nothing.
But surely there must be one person out there?
__/o_o\__

I still cant believe that theists think all amputees do not care about having missing limbs.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: natlegend on October 18, 2013, 09:18:30 PM
Name one.

Okay...after a bad google search i got nothing.
But surely there must be one person out there?
__/o_o\__

Not even one? Then you are talking out your arse.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 18, 2013, 09:24:10 PM
Not even one? Then you are talking out your arse.

Nope, not even a single one (i must admit i rushed google...).

So i guess there is no such thing.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Nam on October 18, 2013, 09:29:04 PM
pure silliness.

What is "pure silliness" is that a person has to suffer their entire lives just to get a prize at the end. That is silly.

You go on and suffer, I'm going to live my life in peace.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 18, 2013, 09:31:42 PM
pure silliness.

What is "pure silliness" is that a person has to suffer their entire lives just to get a prize at the end. That is silly.

You go on and suffer, I'm going to live my life in peace.

-Nam

We all suffer my friend. All of us suffer in different ways.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Nam on October 18, 2013, 09:32:10 PM
There are amputees out there who praise God every single day and don't care about their missing limbs.

Name one.

As while some amputees do not care about their loss of a limb... <snip>

Name one.

Isn't tbright an amputee? I know he's missing part of his brain. Of course, he hasn't been here in awhile.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Nam on October 18, 2013, 09:34:56 PM
pure silliness.

What is "pure silliness" is that a person has to suffer their entire lives just to get a prize at the end. That is silly.

You go on and suffer, I'm going to live my life in peace.

-Nam

We all suffer my friend. All of us suffer in different ways.

1. I'm not your friend and
2. Periodic suffering is not the same as what the Bible states is suffering

-Nam
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 18, 2013, 10:11:57 PM
1. I'm not your friend and
2. Periodic suffering is not the same as what the Bible states is suffering

-Nam

You are very hostile. I love everyone. Why don't you?
It seems that you are the type of person that gives atheists a bad reputation.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Nam on October 18, 2013, 10:36:18 PM
1. I'm not your friend and
2. Periodic suffering is not the same as what the Bible states is suffering

-Nam

You are very hostile. I love everyone. Why don't you?
It seems that you are the type of person that gives atheists a bad reputation.

I wonder if atheists here agree with that? Why don't you ask them.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 18, 2013, 11:06:05 PM
Well, it looks like I buried this question in post #18.

Will the forum be shut down with a message scrolling across the screen with my answer?

That seems like the honest thing to do.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Jag on October 19, 2013, 12:05:27 AM
The question is based on a false assumption that God is supposed to never allow anyone to suffer.

^^^No, it isn't. This is why we won't be shutting down the website. The false assumption you refer to has nothing whatsoever to do with the question.

Looks like you haven't gotten around to reading your bible yet, have you? If you had, you wouldn't have made that silly mistake. You really ought to read it if you plan to keep talking with us about it. That seems like the honest thing to do.

 ;D
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 19, 2013, 12:06:33 AM
Well, it looks like I buried this question in post #18.

Will the forum be shut down with a message scrolling across the screen with my answer?

That seems like the honest thing to do.

Your answer is invalid and utter hogwash.
So, no.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 19, 2013, 01:57:08 AM
Well, it looks like I buried this question in post #18.

Will the forum be shut down with a message scrolling across the screen with my answer?

That seems like the honest thing to do.

Your answer is invalid and utter hogwash.
So, no.

how is it invalid?

Jesus said not to care about earthly and fleshly desires.
Restoring a limb is an earthly & fleshly desire.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 19, 2013, 01:58:54 AM
The bible states that ANYTHING you wish for will happen.
No ifs, buts, whys, or nos.

The fact that amputees pray and get nothing makes your argument invalid.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 19, 2013, 02:01:49 AM
The bible states that ANYTHING you wish for will happen.
No ifs, buts, whys, or nos.

The fact that amputees pray and get nothing makes your argument invalid.

Bible does not state that.
God is not a gumball machine.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 19, 2013, 02:03:55 AM
Sorry to burst your bubble, but it does.

Quote
Mark 11:24 ESV

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Now what?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Nam on October 19, 2013, 02:29:01 AM
Now he comes up with an idiotic interpretation (his or someone else's), or just ignores it. He usually ignores when Bible verses proving him wrong appear.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Aaron123 on October 19, 2013, 01:29:24 PM
Bible does not state that.
God is not a gumball machine.

Translation: God will do nothing, and we should never expect him to do anything.

So why pray at all?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Graybeard on October 19, 2013, 01:42:50 PM
Question: Why won't God heal amputees?
Answer: Because God can make you win at life without legs or arms. He doesn't need you to be perfect. He can do anything.

What does he mean by "win at life"? Does he mean "Lie there like a vegetable but smiling."? or "Become a billionaire."? or  more likely, he doesn't know what he means.

Can we name some amputees who have "Won at life"? And what percentage of the whole is that?

However, the pastor has presupposed there is a god and that it is the god he thinks he worships and makes money out of.

Out of the 5,000+ gods, he seems very confident that this one is working for us; and working in such a mysterious way that he can be left out of any statement and the statement will remain the same.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: screwtape on October 19, 2013, 05:58:42 PM
We all suffer my friend.

congratulations.  You are a buddhist.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: screwtape on October 19, 2013, 06:01:40 PM
Well, it looks like I buried this question in post #18.

You really didn't.  You failed to even grasp the premise of the question.  Have you even read the explanation of the question on the site?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: natlegend on October 20, 2013, 03:35:58 AM
Sorry to burst your bubble, but it does.

Quote
Mark 11:24 ESV

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Now what?

The bible states that ANYTHING you wish for will happen.
No ifs, buts, whys, or nos.

The fact that amputees pray and get nothing makes your argument invalid.

Bible does not state that.
God is not a gumball machine.

The fact that amputees pray and get nothing makes your argument invalid.

Come come, my Skeptic friend, answer the obvious question you've been dodging for soooooo long...

WHY WON'T YOUR GOD HEAL AMPUTEES???
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: changeagentnow on October 22, 2013, 03:26:21 AM
When my son was three he asked me for a pocket knife and I told him "no". I love him and knew he would be better off without it.  Now, of course, not having legs is a different matter, but the principle that a loving father does not give a child that they love everything they ask for seems reasonable - my son will have a more satisfying life without certain things.

I believe you are incorrect by quoting this one verse without looking at other complimentary verses in the bible that shed additional light, by stating there are no "ifs ands or buts" regarding God answering our prayers. One other bible passage that comes to mind regarding prayer is this one.  1 John 5:14-15. "And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us." God hears our prayers, but there are some times when he wont answer, like when we are asking something not aligned with his plan, or to keep me from something detrimental, like the example above.

On another note, here are some additional things to consider...
Nick Vujicic is not an amputee, but he was born without limbs.  If you have never seen one of his videos, they are worth a look.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo_24_qTNac

This marine seems to have a pretty fulfilling marriage, better than an average married couple, although he now has no limbs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6nEAEvAwxQ
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 22, 2013, 03:30:43 AM
Congrats, Nick is a theist who was born without limbs and had god hammered into his brain.
This proves what exactly?

To the other link, the marine, i doubt he would say with a smile "I enjoy having no limbs".
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Anfauglir on October 22, 2013, 08:49:45 AM
Silliness.

God never said life will be an easy breezy walk in the park. The Bible says that the sun shines on the just and unjust and the rain falls on the just and unjust.

Jesus said not to care about earthly and fleshly desires.
Restoring a limb is an earthly & fleshly desire.

skeptic54768., you have entirely misunderstood the point of the WWGHA question.  Though it is, of course, possible that we simply do not understand your particular brand of theology.  Perhaps you would answer these questions, which may help us to understand each other?

Firstly, does the god you believe in heal ANY ailments?  Cancers, colds, wounds of any kind?

Secondly, does your god intervene in the world in ANY way, to help people?  Does he send Samaritans to the aid of those in distress - literally send them, by deliberately placing signs or messages?  Does he lead people to lost possessions?  Does your god alter the world in any way to aid those who believe in him?

If the answers to any of the above is "yes", please can you explain in what way an amputee is different, such that your god will NEVER heal them?

If the answers to all of the above is a resounding "no", how can you tell if your god exists at all?  If every plea to him goes unanswered, how is the world different from one where there is no god at all?

THAT is the point of the WWGHA? question.  An awful lot of Christians don't understand the question, so you are by no means alone.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Dante on October 22, 2013, 09:06:20 AM
When my son was three he asked me for a pocket knife and I told him "no". I love him and knew he would be better off without it.  Now, of course, not having legs is a different matter, but the principle that a loving father does not give a child that they love everything they ask for seems reasonable - my son will have a more satisfying life without certain things.

So, it's your contention that amputees will have a more satisfying life without limbs? WTF is wrong with you?

You theists can rationalize anything, just so your precious faith in skydaddy never wavers. Christ man, engage your brain.

Quote
God hears our prayers, but there are some times when he wont answer

Then you might as well pray to a jug of milk.

Quote
like when we are asking something not aligned with his plan

So much for free will. If there's a plan, no amount of prayer could change it, so, ergo, no free will.

Quote
or to keep me from something detrimental, like the example above.

One wouldn't think limbs would be too awfully detrimental. I mean, how would you get on your knees and show your invisible sky fairy how great he is for taking away your knees without....knees?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Aaron123 on October 22, 2013, 09:57:51 AM
When my son was three he asked me for a pocket knife and I told him "no". I love him and knew he would be better off without it.  Now, of course, not having legs is a different matter, but the principle that a loving father does not give a child that they love everything they ask for seems reasonable - my son will have a more satisfying life without certain things.

Your son will have a more satisfying life because he doesn't have his legs?  Did I read that correctly?  Why not have your legs chopped off then?  If it's good enough for your son...


Quote
I believe you are incorrect by quoting this one verse without looking at other complimentary verses in the bible that shed additional light, by stating there are no "ifs ands or buts" regarding God answering our prayers. One other bible passage that comes to mind regarding prayer is this one.  1 John 5:14-15. "And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us." God hears our prayers, but there are some times when he wont answer, like when we are asking something not aligned with his plan, or to keep me from something detrimental, like the example above.

All this is a long-winded way of saying that we should never expect god to heal amputees.  We should never pray to god to heal amputees.  Healing prayers to god is exercise in futility.  This sounds exactly what we'd expect if god didn't exist.  if god didn't exist, we would expect him never to heal amputees, that prayers are futile, etc.  Explain how this is different (if at all).
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: jaimehlers on October 22, 2013, 09:59:44 AM
Silliness.
Yes, your belief system is silliness.  Oh, you were talking about atheism?  Could have fooled me.

Quote from: skeptic54768
God never said life will be an easy breezy walk in the park. The Bible says that the sun shines on the just and unjust and the rain falls on the just and unjust.
Life isn't a walk in the park even if you have all your body parts and senses.  So what does this have to do with anything?  Same thing with the sun shining and the rain falling.  The sun shines on everyone, and the rain falls on everyone, but most people don't have to deal with the loss or lack of a limb.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Believers don't get a free pass out of suffering. Suffering is a test of our faith. Look at how many atheists use the problem of evil as a reason for God not existing. These people failed the test. There are amputees out there who praise God every single day and don't care about their missing limbs. These passed the test.
You think suffering is a test of faith?  Sorry, but that's just plain nonsense.  Suffering happens - it isn't a test of anything - and we just cope with it when it does.  Moreover, we've come up with ways to overcome suffering, ways which you undoubtedly use every day.  Since you believe it's a test of faith, doesn't that mean that by taking medicines (which help to overcome pain) and doing other things which help you overcome suffering, you're essentially cheating on this "test of faith" of yours?

Quote from: skeptic54768
The question is based on a false assumption that God is supposed to never allow anyone to suffer. This is simply not true. Bible is flooded with examples of believers suffering hardships. True believers see it as a hill to climb. Non-believers see the hill and don't even bother to climb it.
This is flat-out wrong.  The question is based on a divine promise made to Christians, not on the fact of suffering:  "Ask, and it will be given.  Seek, and you will find.  Knock, and it will be opened to you.  For every one who asks, receives, and he who seeks, finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened."

Yet, this is not the case.  One who asks God for something may not be given it.  Someone who seeks knowledge from God may not find it.  Someone who knocks on God's door will often find that it remains closed.  Amputees who ask for their limbs back are invariably ignored.  And yet you think this is a mere test of faith?  That a promise God (and Jesus) made was just a test?

Quote from: skeptic54768
I have seen amputees with one hand work a job better than someone with 2 hands.
All this proves is that a person can adapt to the loss of a hand, and that the able-bodied person was probably lazy.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Look at how many people are collecting disability payments for no reason. These people need to suck it up and quit whining. There's people with one hand working 9-5 jobs and others are on the couch all day watching TV collecting free money with 2 hands with remote in one hand and chips in the other.

Just pure silliness.
Fair enough.  So does that mean you'll focus on your own job and your own life rather than trying to spread a belief in a god who doesn't answer prayers unless he feels like it (which is generally seldom) and who uses suffering to test people?  Somehow, I doubt the answer is yes.  Far more likely that you'll try to springboard from this flimsy position you set up into your usual spiel.

But while that sort of mental flexibility might be entertaining to watch, it really isn't convincing of anything.

Well, it looks like I buried this question in post #18.

Will the forum be shut down with a message scrolling across the screen with my answer?

That seems like the honest thing to do.
You think you buried this question?  You didn't even try to answer it.  You just prattled on about suffering for a while and ended with the statement that people should get off of their lazy behinds and live their lives.  But you didn't answer the question, "why doesn't God heal amputees?"
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: nogodsforme on October 22, 2013, 03:42:05 PM
On the one hand, god gives us everything we need, all good gifts, life and love and peace, dude. All you have to do is ask and you will receive. Pray without ceasing. God is so powerful and awesome, he can do absolutely anything. He created the whole universe and every speck of everything in it. We are so blessed with miracles in every direction.  God is the best possible guy, most loving father, etc. So easy! Just believe. (Read in Keanu Reeves voice.)

But when we ask the kind of basic questions (that anyone of them would ask of any other religions) we start to get a much more complicated picture of this god. Like, why do some people seem to get way more than others of the good gifts, while others get what we can call negative gifts, like being born with no legs or losing a child to a terrible disease? And, assuming that all things come from god,  why do some people try to live very good lives serving god and get jack, while others do whatever they please and get lots of god's gifts unfairly.  And what exactly is a miracle, if some things just never, ever happen (people getting new legs, eyes, brain, etc.)

Some god-believing folk say that we have no way of knowing what is good and bad, fair or unfair, from god's perspective. We cannot judge anything. So, why did god make us unable to tell good from bad? Isn't the conscience the voice of god talking to us, telling us what is good and bad? And, if we cannot tell what is good and bad, how can you decide that anything god does, like creating the universe to begin with, is good?  Because the bible says it is good? How do we know that what the bible says is good, since we cannot judge what is good? And how can anything happen if it is not god's will-- isn't that impossible? How can we decide that slavery or killing all first-born babies is bad, if it is good when god does it? Good and bad have no real meaning if everything that happens is actually god's will and therefore good. (It all starts to sound pretty Buddhist.)

Others say that god could just wipe us out at anytime, so if we get anything short of that we should be grateful. God could decide to d!ck around with you, just because.  Be thankful to god for whatever you have, regardless of how horrible life is for you. If you lose a child to disease, be happy that god left you with two still alive. It could all be a test to see who is really faithful.  Remember Job. Things could be worse. Much, much worse. Wives turning into pillars of salt! Bears mauling children! Plagues of frogs! Global floods! Gahhhhhh! This is your loving father, dammit. Deal with it. (God is a scary d!ck-tator. Starts to sound very Islamic. And Judaic.)

So to account for the things that seem pretty damn bad, while keeping god pretty damn good, we have to introduce the ideal of a powerful evil character, who messes up god's perfect plan. Satan is temporarily in charge, while god is out for a few millennia getting his beard trimmed or something. And then we have to complicate the story even more with god's slacker skater-dude son showing up to run interference for god. To patch up the perfect plan that god made. Because sin. Or something. (Sounds very Microsoft.)

And if all else fails, there is the promise of a reward in heaven. The afterlife will be where the real rewards are passed out to the good people. Yeah, that's it. Then the amputees will get legs, and babies who died from malaria will be reunited with their grieving parents. Old people with dementia will get their young brains back. Unless science figures out a way to heal these folks first. Then we will thank god for it. And the bad people-- we are somehow able to judge good and bad now-- will finally get theirs. Justice, baby! (Sounds very Hindu.)

God will even everything up. Eventually. Gandhi and that Muslim girl who got shot trying to go to school go to heaven and Donald Trump and the Taliban go to hell. Or, wait. Gandhi and that girl will not go to heaven because they were not Christians. And Trump could repent on his deathbed and make it into heaven.

Unless god decides to go all hippie and kumbayah and let everyone in who tried to live a good life. In which case belief in god does not matter at all. So why are these people still coming to my door and passing out literature, and trying to change the laws of my country to reflect their religious views?

I wish all the religious folk would have a big meeting and get the final ret-con version of their story straight before taking it on the road.  &)
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: median on October 23, 2013, 12:17:51 PM
God hears our prayers, but there are some times when he wont answer, like when we are asking something not aligned with his plan, or to keep me from something detrimental, like the example above.

This is called rationalizing. What it means (or how it plays out) is that anytime things don't go your way you make excuses for why God didn't do anything. So anytime you pray and something happens, you praise God. But then when you pray and things get worse you lead the evidence in the direction you want it to go - all because you assumed your interpretation of the bible was the correct one. But there are lots of passages which contradict this thinking process. Jesus, in Mark 16 and John 14 quite clearly states that anyone who believes in him will do the miracles he did, and greater! In 1 Corinthians 2, Paul states clearly that his faith/belief was from the demonstration of power and not by "persuasive words of speech", which is what you are trying to do here. The simplest explanation is that these writings are just plain false. It's too bad that your religion has you so sucked in that you refuse to see the obvious truth - that your theology is self-contradictory and is therefore irrational. You have a vicious double standard that you apply generously when things conflict with what you assumed to be true from the beginning, and this is why many of us say that religion is the enemy of reason.

There simply is no good reason to think that "God hears our prayers". This very notion is indistinguishable from a scenario in which no God's exist or answers anything (as quite a few studies on prayer have shown). If you were willing to look at the evidence with an open mind it would be quite easy to see (but most of us know this is unlikely b/c most religious believers have too much on the line - too much invested or too much at stake).

The bottom line is, we don't see amputees being healed (or those born with no limbs for that matter) b/c this 'Yahweh' God of the bible isn't real (just like the man-made gods of hundreds of other religions in the world are not real either). The idea is a fabrication of gullible men living in a pre-scientific age who thought the earth was flat and that decease came from demons. It's time to grow up and accept reality as it is. There is no grown up Santa Claus!
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Nam on October 23, 2013, 12:39:17 PM
Mother: God heard my prayers and spared my baby's life during that awful tornado.

Reporter: And your mother?

Mother: She died.

Reporter: Did you pray for her survival?

 Mother: Yes, but God needed her so she's now in Heaven by his side.

Based on a true story.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: median on October 23, 2013, 02:58:30 PM
^^^ Yes, God needed here b/c he's not all-powerful and couldn't handle certain tasks on his own.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Nam on October 23, 2013, 03:42:01 PM
That actually is based on a true story, didn't make it up. Tornado hit a white trash trailer park in Kansas a few years back, the mother wasn't home, and her mother was watching her daughter. The trailer was blown to pieces, the child was found alive in a tree, and the grandmother died in the trailer, and that's how she responded. (paraphrased but the overall gist)

-Nam
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: nogodsforme on October 23, 2013, 04:28:42 PM
If the baby had died and grandma had survived, it would be that god needed another little angel --for what, why does the pervert need babies and children, esp. those from poor families, by his side all the damn time? What is even worse is when a child is murdered or dies of an illness or in a horrible accident, and people say it is god's will. He called his baby home, black people say.

Any god/demon/supernatural entity out there, listen up to this black dreadlocked commie mommy: don't you call my baby home. Don't call my baby at all. Don't let me catch you dialing my baby's cell. Ever. Try that crap on my kid, worship will be the last thing you get from me....more like an a$$ whupping that would leave you in ten new dimensions. I will go all exorcist on your a$$.  >:(

That is the proper response of a parent who loves their kid. Not "my kid is not really mine, she belongs to god and he can call her home anytime...and if he told me to I would cut off her head and put her body in a trash compactor and eat her toes for dinner.....because god is love." Sheeeeeit no.

How can anyone reasonably say sh!t like that and consider themselves sane? Some scary-a$$ people out there.  :o
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: 12 Monkeys on October 28, 2013, 08:21:10 PM
My Haida father,just lost a leg below the knee. A god replacing his missing limb,has never entered his mind. The fact he grew up without the God botherers in his life is a good thing. He gets along ok without it. 55 years of smoking are to blame,nothing else. My old man accepts the fact he lost his leg from his actions.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: nogodsforme on October 28, 2013, 09:01:55 PM
Sorry to hear about your dad.[1] My father and uncle both lost limbs to diabetes in their elder years. Both were very religious, too. But still with the drinking, smoking, etc.  :(

Kind of a native thing, the diabetes. Lost my half-native grandfather to diabetes, too.

I am currently doing the geneology thing to find our tribe for my daughter. She wants a tattoo, so I will compromise if she gets one that means something to the ancestors. :?
 1. I hear the guy Thomas from Smoke Signals saying that....
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: 12 Monkeys on October 28, 2013, 09:34:12 PM
Sorry to hear about your dad.[1] My father and uncle both lost limbs to diabetes in their elder years. Both were very religious, too. But still with the drinking, smoking, etc.  :(

Kind of a native thing, the diabetes. Lost my half-native grandfather to diabetes, too.

I am currently doing the geneology thing to find our tribe for my daughter. She wants a tattoo, so I will compromise if she gets one that means something to the ancestors. :?
 1. I hear the guy Thomas from Smoke Signals saying that....
He is still as BAD-ASS as ever,what region are you from?. If you are mixed blood there may be a society near you that can help. In Canada the Metis society helps family track lineage  Good luck.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Lectus on October 31, 2013, 10:28:06 AM
(http://bbsimg.ngfiles.com/1/17351000/ngbbs48bbcc1fef711.jpg)

I saw this guy talking the other day. He prayed to to God to grow arms and legs. It didn't happen. So he assumed God has a plan.

Quote
And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
John 14:13

Christians, always distorting God's word.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: neopagan on October 31, 2013, 03:30:15 PM
^^^ He stumped god...?
{sorry}
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: screwtape on November 01, 2013, 11:24:39 AM
I actually met him once.  He was out doing missionary work door to door.  When I opened the door, I knocked him over by accident.  As he laid there, in front of the door he introduced himself.  He said, " Hi, my name is..." and I interrupted him.  I said, "Matt?"
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: neopagan on November 09, 2013, 11:02:10 PM
I could have sworn he said his name was "Bob" when we met on a cruise ship this summer... poor chap tumbled off
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Anfauglir on November 10, 2013, 01:41:59 AM
I met a quadruple amputee on that same ship.  He jumped over the side, swam to Bob, and towed him back to the ship.

Clever Dick.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on November 10, 2013, 03:37:58 AM
After winning an award, we told the quadruple amputee to take a stand.

These jokes seem rather mean... ;D
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: William on November 10, 2013, 10:46:44 PM
These jokes seem rather mean... ;D

Not as mean as feeding them religion and then asking them to tithe  :blank:
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on November 11, 2013, 02:03:02 AM
Good point, forcing someone into a religion under hidden threat of eternal pain is worse.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Shaffy on November 11, 2013, 08:19:05 PM
God does not perform miracles for anyone. The days of prophets and miracles ended after Jesus died. I know things happen that can't be explained, like someone overcoming cancer, which are miracles in the sense that they can't be explained, but God did not play a part in them. He does not do magic tricks to strengthen peoples faith. You either believe his word is truth or you don't, he doesn't do special favors to try and sway peoples beliefs, although some would like to think so because it makes them feel special.These are just my thoughts. :o

-Shaffy
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: William on November 11, 2013, 08:25:36 PM
The days of prophets and miracles ended after Jesus died.

Not true. Here is a miracle after Jesus died:

Quote
John 21:  6 And He said to them, “Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some.” So they cast, and now they were not able to draw it in because of the multitude of fish.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: William on November 11, 2013, 08:35:22 PM
And after Jesus flew off to heaven the miracle party tricks continued:

Quote
Acts 9:40-41
40 Peter sent everyone out of the room and kneeled and prayed. Then he turned to the body and said, “Tabitha, stand up.” She opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter, she sat up.  41 He gave her his hand and helped her up. Then he called the saints and the widows into the room and showed them that Tabitha was alive.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Nick on November 11, 2013, 08:50:15 PM
God does not perform miracles for anyone. The days of prophets and miracles ended after Jesus died. I know things happen that can't be explained, like someone overcoming cancer, which are miracles in the sense that they can't be explained, but God did not play a part in them. He does not do magic tricks to strengthen peoples faith. You either believe his word is truth or you don't, he doesn't do special favors to try and sway peoples beliefs, although some would like to think so because it makes them feel special.These are just my thoughts. :o

-Shaffy
So I guess the "ask and you shall receive" thing was just God having a good laugh?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: median on November 12, 2013, 01:41:37 AM
God does not perform miracles for anyone. The days of prophets and miracles ended after Jesus died. I know things happen that can't be explained, like someone overcoming cancer, which are miracles in the sense that they can't be explained, but God did not play a part in them. He does not do magic tricks to strengthen peoples faith. You either believe his word is truth or you don't, he doesn't do special favors to try and sway peoples beliefs, although some would like to think so because it makes them feel special.These are just my thoughts. :o

-Shaffy

Welcome to the forum.

Respectfully, Mark 16 and John 14 speak directly against this notion that "miracles ended with the prophets". In fact, it's a modern tactic to avoid refutation since Christians know they can't perform Jesus' alleged command. It doesn't say, "Anybody standing here will do what I do". It says anyone who believes (aka - anybody). I know this is inconvenient for your theology but that is the plain reading of what the text states. If you believe in Jesus, then you WILL be able to do the kinds of works he allegedly did and greater (handling poisonous snakes and not being effected, raising the dead, moving mountains etc). It says, "he that believeth on me..." [speaking of anyone who believes shall do miracles when he asks in Jesus' name]. In fact, Paul even attempts to testify to this by speaking to the Corinthians in 1 Cor 2, telling them that their faith ought not rest in persuasive words of speech but in the demonstration of the "power" of the 'holy spirit'. 1 Cor 12 also testifies to the church being setup (into the future) with those who do miracles and healings.

http://www.impact-ministry.com/acts2/miracles.html (http://www.impact-ministry.com/acts2/miracles.html)
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: nogodsforme on November 13, 2013, 06:39:19 PM
^^^^So, people should not believe the bible when it says that there should be miracles. I agree. And once you go there, why believe anything that the bible says? Why believe the parts that describe miracles performed by Jesus, for example?

What about the miracle that Christianity has spread throughout the world, despite starting out a persecuted minority sect of Judaism? We have been told here many, many times that this is the world's #1 religion, still here after 2000 years, and that is clearly a miracle of the one true god. Nothing to do with the vast extent of the Roman Empire and the later colonization by Europeans of most of the world, both of which had more to do with the spread of Christianity than magic. Given a choice between adopting a religion or being slaughtered along with my family and friends, I would probably take the religion, too. [1]

Also, the "no miracles after Jesus" line means that every Christian who says that they have experienced miracles in their personal lives is either a willful liar, insane or honestly deluded. Which is it?
 1. These same people will attribute the much faster spread of Islam and the persistence of far older faiths like polytheistic Hinduism (and well, Judaism) to lies, delusions, being forced to convert at gunpoint by powerful groups, and......demons.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: median on November 14, 2013, 12:20:34 PM
Christians will continue to have a really hard time with this because b/c they know they cannot perform what Jesus allegedly said they should perform (if they believed), so they jump to a different interpretation (to avoid refutation and due to their assumption that their bible cannot be in error anywhere) and by doing so they ignore or rationalize the plain reading of the text (i.e. - the parts that clearly clash with their 'new' theological scapegoat), and they often do this by clinging to twisted readings of other passages (like 'tongues will cease...' in 1 Cor 13 etc). All of this is just another example of how religion evolves in order to appear relevant. In doing so, though, it has to sacrifice it's theology (piece by piece) and twist and contort it's own shanty texts to hold on. LAME.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: nogodsforme on November 15, 2013, 05:03:59 PM
^^^Islam is trying hard not to do this-- no translations of the Quran are considered the real deal, everything must be taken literally, apostasy is punishable by death, etc. At the same time, Muslims are living in a rapidly changing world, surrounded by and using modern technology, exposed to all kinds of different beliefs. Imagine if a billion Christians today followed Amish beliefs, and were living in countries run by military dictators with high tech weaponry.[1]

Younger Muslims are struggling with trying to make a medieval faith (which was highly scientifically advanced, socially liberal and economically progressive-- for 1250 CE) fit into the 21st century. So far the response from most of their leaders to contradictions between the real world and the holy text of Allah is to double down on the blasphemers and infidels even more. Like when your house is being burned and sacked by looters, you can't afford to tolerate dissension within the family.

Which means that Islam is way overdue for its Reformation....and it won't be any prettier or more reasonable than the Christian one. Instead of three or four different sects of Islam, there will be thousands, all disagreeing with each other....:P
 1. This is an amusing and disturbing contradiction-- the decadent west and its secular lifestyles are anathema to the Osama bin Ladens of the world, but they are happy to use the modern computers, bombs, guns, planes and communications technology. Hell, Osama was ranting about how evil modern stuff was.....on youtube videos available for download worldwide.  &)
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 26, 2013, 04:06:27 AM
If you woke up one morning and every amputee on earth was completely restored would everyone believe there is a God. Of course not! So how could this be?
Because disbelief in God doesn't come from his seemingly absence of power, or lack of his knowledge, or the fact that no one has ever physically seen him. These are all excuses for the real problem. Let me quickly explain.
God places his word above his very name. The word of God cuts to the bone convicting of sin, through our God-given conscience. Here's the problem: God, through his word is contrary to our lifestyle. If we accept God, we must change that rotten lifestyle. Some of us refuse to change and begin to silence our conscience by saying there is no God. So if we can say "God is imaginary" enough times, we can kill the conscience that declares God to all mankind.
I'm a Christian. and that's my opinion.
 



 
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 26, 2013, 04:41:44 AM
If you woke up one morning and every amputee on earth was completely restored would everyone believe there is a God. Of course not! So how could this be?
Because disbelief in God doesn't come from his seemingly absence of power, or lack of his knowledge, or the fact that no one has ever physically seen him. These are all excuses for the real problem. Let me quickly explain.
God places his word above his very name. The word of God cuts to the bone convicting of sin, through our God-given conscience. Here's the problem: God, through his word is contrary to our lifestyle. If we accept God, we must change that rotten lifestyle. Some of us refuse to change and begin to silence our conscience by saying there is no God. So if we can say "God is imaginary" enough times, we can kill the conscience that declares God to all mankind.
I'm a Christian. and that's my opinion.

I made this giant massive awesome post, but i accidentally closed my browser...

I'm just going to summarize it.

http://youtu.be/4CqLtbw0rlM

See this, you idiot.

Your opinion is meaningless, and should have no authority on anything here.
Edited.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Astreja on December 26, 2013, 04:53:48 AM
God places his word above his very name. The word of God cuts to the bone convicting of sin, through our God-given conscience. Here's the problem: God, through his word is contrary to our lifestyle...
Charlie, let Me break the bad news to you as gently as possible.

There has never on this planet existed even one mortal as evil as your alleged god.  According to the rubbish mythology known as the Bible, your imaginary fiend drowned all living things except for Noah's family and a magic boat full of animals; ordered the Israelites to exterminate entire nations such as the Amalekites; set up its own son as a human sacrifice; and intends to torture its enemies for eternity.

That isn't "conscience" in any meaningful or sane sense, and the god of the Bible is unworthy of your attentions.  Even if it did exist (which I rather doubt), I see it as the kind of god that would be removing limbs rather than restoring them.  Why have you subjugated your precious humanity to such a hideous myth?  Because of a promise of eternal life?  Think of the track record of the god making the promise before you invest any more hope in that particular stock.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 26, 2013, 05:09:38 AM
I appreciate your opinion, however you have taken "conscience" out of context from my meaning.
Do you know why God destroyed those people?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 26, 2013, 05:20:59 AM
Conscience is just chemicals and electrons going through mushy tissue beneath your skull.

Not a magical god related thing.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 26, 2013, 06:49:29 AM
Explain how those chemicals and electrons let you know that what you just did was wrong. That little voice in the skull is the conscience that divides right from wrong. No science in that.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 26, 2013, 06:52:57 AM
That little "voice" in your head is the result of electrons and neurons forming the mind.

What determines right from wrong is culture, teachings, personality, religion, and mentality.

Which is why some countries allow stoning and why some do not.

There is no absolute.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 26, 2013, 07:39:04 AM
The reason some countries still stone is because they are still living under Old Testament Law, (Moses Law, in the Jews case), the ten commandments. When Jesus came he did away with Moses Law, and declared the just shall live by faith through grace in Jesus Christ. That's why the Jews wouldn't accept him, he was changing the law.
If you check up on these countries you will see none of them believe Jesus is the Christ, as a nation that is. All countries have some believers, even Israel.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 26, 2013, 07:48:03 AM
As far as the conscience goes, we are both fishing in a dried up creek. It's the age old debate of evolution vs creation. I believe the Bible and you don't, and so on. I just agree to disagree.
I believe it's just where God wants it. That's where the faith comes in.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on December 26, 2013, 08:22:10 AM
The reason some countries still stone is because they are still living under Old Testament Law, (Moses Law, in the Jews case), the ten commandments. When Jesus came he did away with Moses Law, and declared the just shall live by faith through grace in Jesus Christ. That's why the Jews wouldn't accept him, he was changing the law.
If you check up on these countries you will see none of them believe Jesus is the Christ, as a nation that is. All countries have some believers, even Israel.

Matthew 5:18

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.



On 21 May 2008 that in Kenya a mob had burnt to death at least 11 people accused of witchcraft. They do so for religious reasons. They were Christian.

Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: G-Roll on December 26, 2013, 09:39:30 AM
If you woke up one morning and every amputee on earth was completely restored would everyone believe there is a God. Of course not! So how could this be?
Eh... that would be a hard one to explain. Let's say that I would be more open to the idea that a god or gods existed because that would be some hard evidence of them actually being real. Are you waiting for a mass amputee healing?

Quote
Because disbelief in God doesn't come from his seemingly absence of power, or lack of his knowledge, or the fact that no one has ever physically seen him.
No? Yet those are some good reasons not to believe! Because if you follow the evidence that’s what you find.

Quote
These are all excuses for the real problem. Let me quickly explain.
I can't wait.

Quote
God places his word above his very name. The word of God cuts to the bone convicting of sin, through our God-given conscience. Here's the problem:
The problem is (according to you) that god created your mind to convince you that you are a piece of shit. God doesn’t live in my mind so I have no need to hate myself for being a mere human. Yes I fall short of my own expectations from time to time but I am sure no Christian can claim the same thing. Right?

Quote
God, through his word is contrary to our lifestyle. If we accept God, we must change that rotten lifestyle.
Yes because a murder in prison who happens to have been Christian his whole life is a better person than an atheist scientist who actually tries to heal amputees. You judge people by their faith rather than their works. And that makes no since to me. Who are you to claim that a Muslim who runs a homeless shelter or an atheist who volunteers in soup kitchens lives a rotten lifestyle because they don’t think jesus is awesome and the greatest thing that ever was?
Do you feel they are incapable of being a good person just because they don’t share your world view? Or do you just worry that your omni benevolent god will smite them just because they didn’t drink his Kool-Aid regardless of their great works here on earth? 

Quote
Some of us refuse to change and begin to silence our conscience by saying there is no God. So if we can say "God is imaginary" enough times, we can kill the conscience that declares God to all mankind.
I suppose I am one of those who silences my conscience? Actually shouldn’t we thank Adam, Eve, and the Serpent for our conciseness? Genesis makes it quite clear that your god wanted you to be a stupid hairless ape with no knowledge of good and evil. Your god wasn’t happy at all when Adam and Eve ate the fruit and learned the difference of good and evil. When they obtained the consciousness you speak of. God cursed all of mankind for their consciousness so why would you attribute consciousness to Yahweh?
Hail Satan, thanks for giving me a conscience against Charlies gods will!

I'm an atheist and that’s my opinion.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Dante on December 26, 2013, 09:54:38 AM
It's the age old debate of evolution vs creation. I believe the Bible and you don't, and so on. I just agree to disagree.

You have to agree to disagree, because you're wrong. We have mountains of evidence on our side, while you have nothing at all, save words in a dusty old book.

Enjoy your willfull ignorance.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 26, 2013, 10:02:03 AM
The reason some countries still stone is because they are still living under Old Testament Law, (Moses Law, in the Jews case), the ten commandments. When Jesus came he did away with Moses Law, and declared the just shall live by faith through grace in Jesus Christ. That's why the Jews wouldn't accept him, he was changing the law.
If you check up on these countries you will see none of them believe Jesus is the Christ, as a nation that is. All countries have some believers, even Israel.

Ohh look, the old testament argument, that is so rare (PS: it isnt).
Simply put, a god that has to revise his own holy book, if it existed, is not worthy of worship.

As far as the conscience goes, we are both fishing in a dried up creek. It's the age old debate of evolution vs creation. I believe the Bible and you don't, and so on. I just agree to disagree.
I believe it's just where God wants it. That's where the faith comes in.

I disagree that you should agree to disagree (whoa...thats a headspin...).
By disagreeing that the conscience is just chemicals and electrons going around your brain, you disagree with reality.
In other words, you are being idiotic...
Remember "Faith is believing in things without evidence". Which can be harmless, but is not the thing to do when it comes to scientific studies, biology, anatomy, and morals.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Anfauglir on December 26, 2013, 11:04:29 AM
. Some of us refuse to change and begin to silence our conscience by saying there is no God. So yif we can say "God is imaginary" enough times, we can kill the conscience that declares God to all mankind.
I'm a Christian. and that's my opinion.

...and that's all it is.  And because you admit you cannot prove or demonstrate your god, you give me no more reason to believe you and your holy book over any of the thousands of others there have Ben throughout history.

Why should I believe in your Yahweh, when I know that Atum created the world.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 26, 2013, 11:28:20 AM
Why should I believe in your Yahweh, when I know that Atum created the world.

Heretic!

Its obvious Thor and Odin are the real gods, they killed all the frost giants!

Do you see any frost giants outside? I think not!
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: One Above All on December 26, 2013, 11:41:27 AM
Why should I believe in your Yahweh, when I know that Atum created the world.

Heretic!

Its obvious Thor and Odin are the real gods, they killed all the frost giants!

Do you see any frost giants outside? I think not!

*Cough*

*Points at self*
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 26, 2013, 11:53:03 AM
What blatantly vague, inevitable, predictable prediction did you make?

What magic did you do? D:
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: One Above All on December 26, 2013, 11:58:31 AM
What blatantly vague, inevitable, predictable prediction did you make?

I predict that, from every universe spawned by Myself or the other gods, a being will arise and join Us in eternal enlightenment.

What magic did you do? D:

Creating entire universes isn't good enough for you?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 26, 2013, 12:04:07 PM
I predict that, from every universe spawned by Myself or the other gods, a being will arise and join Us in eternal enlightenment.

Creating entire universes isn't good enough for you?

Blimey, such complexity of words, i cannot understand your great mysteriousness!

*Bows down*

What must i do lord to get eternal life?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: One Above All on December 26, 2013, 12:14:45 PM
What must i do lord to get eternal life?

Evolve.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 26, 2013, 12:19:22 PM
Evolve.

*end stupid RP*

So...theists who still want to claim that brain processes are from god...*sigh*
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on December 26, 2013, 12:31:00 PM
Explain how those chemicals and electrons let you know that what you just did was wrong. That little voice in the skull is the conscience that divides right from wrong. No science in that.

There's no science in the way brain chemistry affects one's judgement? Please notify the ENTIRE PHARMACOLOGICAL INDUSTRY!!!!!

Seriously, do ever stop to look at what you type and consider how stupid it is?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on December 26, 2013, 12:36:25 PM

And how does one "win" at life?

and furthermore, wouldn't having no arms make it hard to put the little pegs in the little holes on the little plastic cars?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: G-Roll on December 26, 2013, 12:46:25 PM
^^
They would have to spin the wheel with their toes as well.

Why can't Theist just say my god doesn't interact in this world like he was documented in the Old Testament anymore? Instead we get god doesn’t heal amputees (Harbinger77 not included) because he is real and overly loving.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Astreja on December 26, 2013, 03:25:53 PM
Heretic!

Its obvious Thor and Odin are the real gods, they killed all the frost giants!

Do you see any frost giants outside? I think not!

My little brother and Dad say "Hei!"

You have to watch out for frost giant DNA, 'tho -- Y'know, the little 6-pointed thingies that pile up in the driveway on a cold winter day?  And I wouldn't trust those snowmen, either...  ;)
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Astreja on December 26, 2013, 03:40:04 PM
I appreciate your opinion, however you have taken "conscience" out of context from my meaning.
Do you know why God destroyed those people?

Because he has a real problem with imperfection and human bad behaviour, and thought killing everything was a jolly good idea.  (BTW, Bastet has a contract out on his sorry head for what he did to Her kittens.)

More seriously, Charlie, it's a myth.  The Noachide flood simply did not happen, and there is no way that Noah and his family could have put that many animals into a wooden boat and have it stay afloat for 40 days while the rains were coming down at the rate of 30 feet per hour[1].

I am quite convinced that your god is mythical.  However, that doesn't stop it from being used as an excuse for horrific wars and persecutions.
 1. The height of Chomolungma (Mount Everest), 29,029 feet, divided by 960 hours (40 hours x 24 hours per day) = 30.238 feet/hour.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 26, 2013, 03:53:15 PM
I'm sure you guys have more constructive conversation than Charlie is a piece of shi* and Charlie is an idiot, and hail Satan. How about let's be adults here.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: One Above All on December 26, 2013, 04:02:31 PM
I'm sure you guys have more constructive conversation than Charlie is a piece of shi* and Charlie is an idiot, and hail Satan. How about let's be adults here.

How about you ignore and/or report those and focus on the ones that made thoughtful responses, rather than use the former as an excuse not to deal with the latter?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Astreja on December 26, 2013, 04:11:31 PM
I'm sure you guys have more constructive conversation than Charlie is a piece of shi* and Charlie is an idiot, and hail Satan. How about let's be adults here.

I think G-Roll made a very good point, Charlie.  Here it is again, with emphasis:

The problem is (according to you) that god created your mind to convince you that you are a piece of shit. God doesn’t live in my mind so I have no need to hate myself for being a mere human.

Note the difference:  *We* aren't likening you to excrement; that's Christian "Original Sin" theology, taken primarily from the Pauline epistles rather than from the supposed words of Jesus.  It views mankind as fatally flawed and fit only for damnation.  This is a bleak, absolutist dualist view, good god versus evil humans, that deliberately devalues the good works that humans regularly do.  It is one of the most destructive philosophies ever taught on this planet, and has done vastly more harm than good over the centuries.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Anfauglir on December 26, 2013, 04:12:33 PM
I'm sure you guys have more constructive conversation than Charlie is a piece of shi* and Charlie is an idiot, and hail Satan. How about let's be adults here.

How about you ignore and/or report those and focus on the ones that made thoughtful responses, rather than use the former as an excuse not to deal with the latter?

(Raises hand). Because it's easier to complain about the trivia than engage with the tough questions?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 26, 2013, 04:17:43 PM
Hi Astreja, I never got back to you. Been kinda busy as you can see.
I wish I could see your post while I'm writing, I haven't figured out how maneuver here yet. Maybe their right about me being an idiot, lol.
I think we were talking about why God utterly destroyed those civilizations, nations, and tribes in the old testament. Basically it was to keep from having to destroy the world again. At the time the Hebrews reached the promised land with Moses having passed away and Joshua now leading, they were the only people on earth that believed in the true God. All other nations believed false Gods.
God knew they would never believe him, so the Bible says God told Joshua to destroy all living flesh including the animals. If the Hebrews had gone in peaceably they would have mingled with the heathen and lost sight of God. Forcing Gods hand to destroy the earth again. Just what he had already done because "man continuously thought evil and cursed God."
 But here's the good news, God doesn't do that anymore because the perfect sacrifice has come. We are no longer under law but we are now living under grace, the new covenant Jesus Christ.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on December 26, 2013, 04:31:44 PM
Hi Astreja, I never got back to you. Been kinda busy as you can see.
I wish I could see your post while I'm writing, I haven't figured out how maneuver here yet. Maybe their right about me being an idiot, lol.
I think we were talking about why God utterly destroyed those civilizations, nations, and tribes in the old testament. Basically it was to keep from having to destroy the world again. At the time the Hebrews reached the promised land with Moses having passed away and Joshua now leading, they were the only people on earth that believed in the true God. All other nations believed false Gods.
God knew they would never believe him, so the Bible says God told Joshua to destroy all living flesh including the animals. If the Hebrews had gone in peaceably they would have mingled with the heathen and lost sight of God. Forcing Gods hand to destroy the earth again. Just what he had already done because "man continuously thought evil and cursed God."
 But here's the good news, God doesn't do that anymore because the perfect sacrifice has come. We are no longer under law but we are now living under grace, the new covenant Jesus Christ.

Notice the circular think here: God Knew they would never believe him.

God could have made those in question in a way where they would have accepted Joshua
God could have shown up himself in his awe inspiring glory and would have been way more impressive than carved idols and said false religions would dry up within the week
God could have given Joshua Mighty powers to subvert the laws of physics, like waiving his hand and the weapons of other civilizations fall to dust, forgoing the need for utter destruction
God could have written his instructon to submit to Joshua in the sky


but no, an Omnipotent and Omnicent God...best he can come up with is utter destruction....and that's not very advanced morality.

But still, none the less the stories have all the weight of those in the Iliad.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 26, 2013, 04:32:04 PM
Now, now, little children lets be quiet while the adults are speaking.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on December 26, 2013, 04:33:47 PM
Now, now, little children lets be quiet while the adults are speaking.

care to address the substance of my arguments?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 26, 2013, 04:41:07 PM
Ahh, but you fail to realize God has given man free will to do whatever we want, good or bad. God never forces anyone to do his will. I can give you scripture if you like. That's why we don't see God, instead he gave us his word (the Bible). He places his word above his name. Need any scripture let me know.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: G-Roll on December 26, 2013, 04:45:06 PM
I'm sure you guys have more constructive conversation than Charlie is a piece of shi* and Charlie is an idiot, and hail Satan. How about let's be adults here.

First of all I don’t think you are a piece of shit. Your god does. You strike me as a well spoken gentleman. Unfortunately I can't say the same for how Yahweh sees you.
Second, I didn’t call you an idiot. Well not directly in exact words. I used colorful banter to make my point. I apologize if I offended you but sarcasm is my first langue and I would expect a theist who joins an atheist website would have a bit of thicker skin.
Third, why not hail Satan for our consciousness? For our ability to know right from wrong? If Satan was the serpent he is the reason we have that. Unless you believe god controls everything including Satan and this was all part of a divine elaborate plan.
It is still a mystery to me how you attribute your consciousness, morality, or anything else that separates us from the animal kingdom to god. The ability to realize you are naked to know good from evil are gifts from Satan.

Quote
How about let's be adults here.
Why? Being immature and childish have gotten me this far. I fear I may be too far gone.  :(
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 26, 2013, 04:45:20 PM
I can't work this site yet, but the guy talking about the omnipotent God is bringing the groceries home. Listen to him!!!
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on December 26, 2013, 04:46:17 PM
Ahh, but you fail to realize God has given man free will to do whatever we want, good or bad. God never forces anyone to do his will. I can give you scripture if you like. That's why we don't see God, instead he gave us his word (the Bible). He places his word above his name. Need any scripture let me know.

Characters in the Bible actually defy God after they interact with God. So your own mythology denies the concept that this "god" character needs to be hidden for freewill to exist.

Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Dante on December 26, 2013, 04:46:26 PM
I think we were talking about why God utterly destroyed those civilizations, nations, and tribes in the old testament. Basically it was to keep from having to destroy the world again. At the time the Hebrews reached the promised land with Moses having passed away and Joshua now leading, they were the only people on earth that believed in the true God. All other nations believed false Gods.
God knew they would never believe him, so the Bible says God told Joshua to destroy all living flesh including the animals. If the Hebrews had gone in peaceably they would have mingled with the heathen and lost sight of God. Forcing Gods hand to destroy the earth again. Just what he had already done because "man continuously thought evil and cursed God."

But do you not wonder why an omni-god, especailly the OT version, would have a need to exterminate so many people via other people, or a flood? Why not with a snap of it's holy fingers, or twitch of the nose?

I mean, why would an omniscient being not know that there would be plenty of sin and such even after the great flood? Why would it not realize that having his people (Joshua) do the wet work, when it could just as easily think the thought and eliminate those that "thought evil", wouldn't end the transgressions? And again, why would your god not realize that even that wouldn't be enough to rid the world of sin and evil, so it'd have an unforseen need to regenerate in human form and sacrifice itself to itself for it's own immutably flawed creations?

To me, that doesn't sound like a very well thought out, all powerful, all knowing plan for it's most beloved creation. Maybe the guy in my sig was on to something after all.....
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 26, 2013, 04:48:24 PM
No you haven't gone to far. As long as there is life there is hope.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 26, 2013, 05:11:47 PM
NO, God doesn't need to hide himself. Allow me to take you back to the beginning and show you where man stands with God.
God created a perfect man and perfect woman (Adam and Eve). They were made to live forever with never facing a physical death, in the Garden of Eden. He tells them to eat of any fruit of the trees but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You see, they were naked and were not ashamed because they didn't know good or evil, they were in a perfect creation. Then comes the serpent (Satan) which means in Hebrew "the enemy and adversary". and you know the rest. Now sin has entered a perfect world. A holy righteous God told Adam that he would die if he ate of that tree. Now man has sinned and must now face a physical death. Whereby sin entered into the world by one man, all have sinned and come short of the glory God. This is where all mankind stands now before God. A sinner in need of a Saviour, and God has provided by the sacrifice of his son Jesus Christ. For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son that whosoever shall believe in him shall nor perish but have everlasting life.
God has never failed man, man has always failed God, and God has always made a way for us. The love of God goes beyond human comprehension.   
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Astreja on December 26, 2013, 05:13:22 PM
But here's the good news, God doesn't do that anymore because the perfect sacrifice has come. We are no longer under law but we are now living under grace, the new covenant Jesus Christ.

Sorry, Charlie -- I don't do human sacrifice.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 26, 2013, 05:24:12 PM
A righteous and holy God can accept nothing less than perfection into his kingdom. So how can mere man full of sin be accepted. By what Jesus did at Calvary, he suffered, bled and died there for our sins to be washed away. You see, when God sees a  born again Christian, who is also full of sin and imperfections, he doesn't see us, he sees the blood of Jesus on us and that makes us perfect. A bride fit for the bridegroom, as the Bible says.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 26, 2013, 05:27:11 PM
Thank God you didn't have to do it, or any of the rest of us. He did it for us, and there lies the love of Christ.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: G-Roll on December 26, 2013, 05:29:39 PM
NO, God doesn't need to hide himself. Allow me to take you back to the beginning and show you where man stands with God.
God created a perfect man and perfect woman (Adam and Eve). They were made to live forever with never facing a physical death, in the Garden of Eden. He tells them to eat of any fruit of the trees but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You see, they were naked and were not ashamed because they didn't know good or evil, they were in a perfect creation. Then comes the serpent (Satan) which means in Hebrew "the enemy and adversary". and you know the rest. Now sin has entered a perfect world. A holy righteous God told Adam that he would die if he ate of that tree. Now man has sinned and must now face a physical death. Whereby sin entered into the world by one man, all have sinned and come short of the glory God. This is where all mankind stands now before God. A sinner in need of a Saviour, and God has provided by the sacrifice of his son Jesus Christ. For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son that whosoever shall believe in him shall nor perish but have everlasting life.
God has never failed man, man has always failed God, and God has always made a way for us. The love of God goes beyond human comprehension.

Quote
The word of God cuts to the bone convicting of sin, through our God-given conscience

Quote
So if we can say "God is imaginary" enough times, we can kill the conscience that declares God to all mankind.

Quote
That little voice in the skull is the conscience that divides right from wrong. No science in that.
So we agree this conscience you posted of earlier knowing of right and wrong are a gift from Satan? Morality thus would be a gift from Satan because without him we wouldn’t know good from evil. And do you see apes as a perfect creation? Better than man? Also before the fall of Adam was he incapable of doing wrong or did he just not know what he did was wrong? How is an ignorant person perfect?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Astreja on December 26, 2013, 05:32:16 PM
A righteous and holy God can accept nothing less than perfection into his kingdom. So how can mere man full of sin be accepted. By what Jesus did at Calvary, he suffered, bled and died there for our sins to be washed away. You see, when God sees a  born again Christian, who is also full of sin and imperfections, he doesn't see us, he sees the blood of Jesus on us and that makes us perfect. A bride fit for the bridegroom, as the Bible says.

I do not need the blood of a son of an evil god to make Me "perfect."  For that matter, I don't need "perfection" and I want nothing to do with a god that cannot tolerate imperfection.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 26, 2013, 06:28:30 PM
Hello Astreja, you have been nice and straight forward with me. More so than anyone else on this website. I hope you understand what is being said here, and take it as one caring person to another. The Bible says sin is what separates us from God. Jesus said I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me. The created can't say to the creator, what are you doing, I want it this way. But then again they can, at the cost of eternal separation from God, and I think you know what that means.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Graybeard on December 26, 2013, 06:46:54 PM
So we agree this conscience you posted of earlier knowing of right and wrong is a gift from Satan?
Very perceptive. I wish I could rep you twice.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: G-Roll on December 26, 2013, 06:51:51 PM
Why thank you Greybeard. Although I fear I am not worthy of a reply or Charlie is to butt hurt to talk to me. Oh well.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Astreja on December 26, 2013, 07:04:11 PM
The Bible says sin is what separates us from God. Jesus said I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me.

That's fine for people who believe what the Bible says, but I don't happen to be one of those people.  A pantheist might say that the universe itself is divine, and that there is no separation.  A panentheist, on the other hand, would see the universe as being saturated with god-ness, and that the divine extends beyond the universe.  A polytheist might ask, "Which god?"  A Sufi might say "There are as many paths to God as there are souls on Earth."  Meanwhile, I'm working on the problem of why science can't find any physical traces of gods and wondering what they could possibly be, if not matter or energy.

Quote
The created can't say to the creator, what are you doing, I want it this way. But then again they can, at the cost of eternal separation from God, and I think you know what that means.

If I'm understanding you correctly here, humanity's supposed "free will" is constrained by the will of your god, who is in essence saying "My way or the highway."

What I do not understand is the fixation on "Figure out what I want and do it while you're alive, O mortals, because I'm not giving you any more chances -- Whatever you choose, it's forever." That's a rather draconian way of doing things, and puts humanity at the mercy of whatever religions and religious leaders are prominent in their part of the world.

If people's eternal souls were actually at stake here (which I doubt, but I'll play along for the moment), one would hope  that a god would use something more effective than the Bible to get the point across.  It's a real dog's breakfast of ideas, drawing from Sumerian, Akkadian, Canaanite, Egyptian and Greek myth and poetry, with numerous missing originals and a theological divide between Jesus and Paul of Tarsus regarding the validity of the Old Testament laws in the New Testament era.

I don't see any way to reconcile the ideas in the Bible with reality, so I've cast My vote for reality.  I'd love to get a real, live Talking Snake™, 'tho (Genesis 3).
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 26, 2013, 07:09:09 PM
Hello G-Roll, although no apology is needed, i can see by doing so you are a gentleman yourself.

I have no enemy in man, but I declare unto all, Satan is my only enemy. He is the great deceiver, the adversary to everything pure and good. He comes only to steal, kill and destroy. The Bible says because he was able to deceive man in the Garden of Eden, and introduce sin into the world he has the legal right to walk to and fro upon the earth seeking whom he may devour. But I thank my God I am off limits to the old boy.
In the book of Job God told Satan, Have you considered my servant Job, who hates evil and loves that which is good. Satan replied, yes, but you have put a hedge around him and I can't get to him. And such are all that trust in Christ.   
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 26, 2013, 07:18:42 PM
You are exactly right about Gods way or the Highway. But we don't find ourselves at the mercy of preachers, or religion. We find ourselves at the foot of an old rugged cross.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: G-Roll on December 26, 2013, 07:21:19 PM
Quote
Hello G-Roll, although no apology is needed, i can see by doing so you are a gentleman yourself.
Why thank you.

Quote
I have no enemy in man, but I declare unto all, Satan is my only enemy. He is the great deceiver, the adversary to everything pure and good. He comes only to steal, kill and destroy. The Bible says because he was able to deceive man in the Garden of Eden, and introduce sin into the world he has the legal right to walk to and fro upon the earth seeking whom he may devour. But I thank my God I am off limits to the old boy.
In the book of Job God told Satan, Have you considered my servant Job, who hates evil and loves that which is good. Satan replied, yes, but you have put a hedge around him and I can't get to him. And such are all that trust in Christ.
That is all well and nice but has nothing to do with what I asked.

You mentioned also earlier that the introduction of sin killed Adam and Eve. However according to the story of Genesis there where two significant trees in Eden. The tree of life and the tree of good and evil. Adam and Eve were allowed to eat anything but the tree of knowledge. The tree of life gave them immortality correct? When booted from Eden they no longer got to eat from the tree of life. So what killed them was no more magic apples. I don’t see how the concept of sin causes death when a simple explanation of the tree of life is right there.
Sin is a crazy concept to me and I honestly doubt it can be explained in any way to make since. You are welcome to try if you wish but I fear it will be a waste of time. If you and I were to discuss/debate sin I fear we would both be wasting precious moments of life :P
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 26, 2013, 07:49:46 PM
A righteous and holy God can accept nothing less than perfection into his kingdom. So how can mere man full of sin be accepted. By what Jesus did at Calvary, he suffered, bled and died there for our sins to be washed away. You see, when God sees a  born again Christian, who is also full of sin and imperfections, he doesn't see us, he sees the blood of Jesus on us and that makes us perfect. A bride fit for the bridegroom, as the Bible says.

That people believe this stuff astonished me. That your world has to be so small, and so perfectly explained as real, serves no purpose other than to satisfy your ego. Thinking that people are bad because the misinformed duo blew it takes reality out of the picture and makes fixing our problems that much harder.

Perfect gods who create imperfect world, even if by proxy, aren't quite as perfect as you want them to be. If he is real and Eden was real and Adam and Eve were real, he placed the entire fate of mankind in the hands of a newbie, and he didn't even tell Eve too. Rather, he depended on a guy to pass accurate information on to his wife, something that is still hard to do today.

He didn't think it through, his omnipotence was insufficient and a bat-shit crazy snake spent more time talking than your god did.

Again, if he is real, we either have the outcome he wanted in the first place (he had to see it coming and be happy with it) or he's just no good at his job and he overlooked a couple of details. Again if real, why he didn't start over again and send Noah and the family permanently skinny dipping along with the rest of us, I don't know. Again, his omnipotence should have been a bit more informative than it appears to have been.

Christians who swallow the story are hell-bent on keeping it simple and keeping it stupid, and are therefore tasked with the job of trying to make an idiotic story appear to be full of wisdom and stuff. Since there is none, you guys have to go through amazing contortions to make the tale seem plausible.

That we can't even get any two of you to tell the same story is revealing. That each of you has customized it a bit with your own versions regarding which parts were the most important should be a clue to each and every one of you that this stuff wasn't real. But instead, you all go along on your merry way, mesmerized by your various inaccurate versions of the truth, and doing christian yoga by patting yourselves on the back.

We're not impressed. Live with it. Because a perfect god who can't do it right has issues. And a non-existent god who didn't do a thing is much more likely. Well, only a 100% more likely, but that's enough for me.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 26, 2013, 08:14:16 PM
G-Roll my man, I just saw your post about Satan giving us a conscience. Satan never gives anything, he only takes. That's the difference between Satan and God. We are not ignorant of his devices, he only comes to steal, kill and destroy. Through the lust of the flesh Satan gets us in all kind of messes designed to separate us from God and then destroy us. He's doing a very good job too. The next time you see an alcoholic begging for money to buy another drink, you are looking at Satans handy work. When you see families devastated by divorce, Satan has been there, stealing the children.
Jesus told his disciples he saw Satan fall from heaven as lightning, and beware on earth for he is come for you. We have no idea how serious sin is. or neither what's at stake.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 26, 2013, 08:35:31 PM
Satan, Satan, I'm over here. You missed me. I'm over 60 and I don't drink and I don't sleep around and I don't use drugs and I don't watch Fox News. I need your help!!!!
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: G-Roll on December 26, 2013, 08:38:40 PM
Nothing really
Quote
We have no idea how serious sin is. or neither what's at stake.
I think we all know what is at stake. The concept of sin is just as important if not more important than the Jesus figure himself to Christianity. Without sin there is no Christianity because there is no need for Jesus to be crucified. If sin doesn’t cause death no one really needs to fear it, sin needs to be horrible. Yet an easy explanation about Adams loss of immortality that I mentioned earlier about the tree of life is right there for us all. Also Satan is the easy scapegoat to place this horrible weird concept upon us poor innocent (at the time) humans. Yet NO ONE even considers the fact that morality based on the concept of good and evil is because Adam (who cares about Eve?) ate the freaking apple. Without sin Satan is the hero of the story of Genesis. He is the George Washington standing against a tyrant. It is the snake that gave us dominion over the other animals because the wisdom made us more/is what separates us from the animal kingdom. If you ask me that is a far better gift than just naming creatures.
So until a Christian gives me reason to think otherwise when asked what my morality is based upon and I know the answer they want is Christianity. I will happily answer Christianity with the wisdom gifted to us all by Satan.

I am not knocking you for not answering my question. I believe the answer I don’t know is always the best if one doesn’t know. Lol it's an answer I deploy more than you probably. Just please be careful with posts that could be seen as preaching.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 26, 2013, 09:15:55 PM
G-Roll, have you ever done something and said to yourself, I shouldn't have done that? That's your God given conscience, telling you it was wrong. It's a God given defense mechanism to keep you from sin. Have you ever thought back on some occasion in your life and remembered something and thought, man I wish I hadn't done that. This time it's not your conscience, it's regret. Have you ever heard someone say my conscience has been bothering me and I have to make this right. That is the conscience at work. The bible says the conscience can be seared with a hot iron. That's when you continue to do the same sin over and over and over again. The conscience is seared and doesn't bother you anymore.

Ok, what is sin. The apostle James says it is to know to do right and do it not. When you put that bottle of whiskey to your lips, you know it's not right, you have sinned. When your wife needs help in the kitchen and you know you should help her, but for some reason you choose not to, you have sinned.

So what's the big deal about sin? We all do it, right. The Bible says the wages of sin is death. Not a physical death, this is speaking of the second death, eternal separation from God in hell.  Remember when Adam sinned, sin came into the world and now we are all born in sin. There is none righteous, no not one. Now we have a sin debt we can't pay, all our righteousness is as filthy rags the Bible says. Why? Because nothing less than perfect can enter the Kingdom of God, and none of us are that. That's why Jesus went to the cross in our place, because we can't do it. Jesus can do it because he lived on this earth for 33 1/2 years and never sinned. He is not stained with sin as we are. He suffered the pain and humiliation of a death on the cross in our place. That's how much he loves you. Death on the cross was chosen by the Romans because it was the cruelest form of punishment known to man at that time. Sin is gruesome and ugly, and worst of all we have to answer for it. Jesus stood in the temple one day in front of thousands and lifted his hands to heaven and said, you who are thirsty come unto me and I will give you life everlasting. 
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 26, 2013, 09:37:08 PM
I really enjoyed the conversations today. If I can help you in any way I will do my best. Thank you all for your replies and courtesy while doing so.
I've been at it here since 5am, got to get some rest. I will pick up tomorrow on contradiction #3 for those who are following. Sorry I couldn't finish today but I was very busy with my work load and replies.

God Bless all and I will talk with you tomorrow.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 26, 2013, 09:48:09 PM
G-Roll, have you ever done something and said to yourself, I shouldn't have done that? That's your God given conscience, telling you it was wrong. It's a God given defense mechanism to keep you from sin. Have you ever thought back on some occasion in your life and remembered something and thought, man I wish I hadn't done that. This time it's not your conscience, it's regret. Have you ever heard someone say my conscience has been bothering me and I have to make this right. That is the conscience at work. The bible says the conscience can be seared with a hot iron. That's when you continue to do the same sin over and over and over again. The conscience is seared and doesn't bother you anymore.

Ok, what is sin. The apostle James says it is to know to do right and do it not. When you put that bottle of whiskey to your lips, you know it's not right, you have sinned. When your wife needs help in the kitchen and you know you should help her, but for some reason you choose not to, you have sinned.

So what's the big deal about sin? We all do it, right. The Bible says the wages of sin is death. Not a physical death, this is speaking of the second death, eternal separation from God in hell.  Remember when Adam sinned, sin came into the world and now we are all born in sin. There is none righteous, no not one. Now we have a sin debt we can't pay, all our righteousness is as filthy rags the Bible says. Why? Because nothing less than perfect can enter the Kingdom of God, and none of us are that. That's why Jesus went to the cross in our place, because we can't do it. Jesus can do it because he lived on this earth for 33 1/2 years and never sinned. He is not stained with sin as we are. He suffered the pain and humiliation of a death on the cross in our place. That's how much he loves you. Death on the cross was chosen by the Romans because it was the cruelest form of punishment known to man at that time. Sin is gruesome and ugly, and worst of all we have to answer for it. Jesus stood in the temple one day in front of thousands and lifted his hands to heaven and said, you who are thirsty come unto me and I will give you life everlasting.

You realize that there are other explanations that are far more plausible, more realistic and more useful, don't you.

Well, I know your answer, but I couldn't think of any other way to phrase it.

You see god, we see evolution and culture, genes and learned behavior.

Yours is simpler. Ours explains in more detail.

I, for one, would feel guilty if I agreed with you. We wouldn't want that now, would we.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: G-Roll on December 26, 2013, 09:50:59 PM
Quote
G-Roll, have you ever done something and said to yourself, I shouldn't have done that? That's your God given conscience, telling you it was wrong. It's a God given defense mechanism to keep you from sin. Have you ever thought back on some occasion in your life and remembered something and thought, man I wish I hadn't done that. This time it's not your conscience, it's regret. Have you ever heard someone say my conscience has been bothering me and I have to make this right. That is the conscience at work. The bible says the conscience can be seared with a hot iron. That's when you continue to do the same sin over and over and over again. The conscience is seared and doesn't bother you anymore.

Yes that is my knowledge of good and evil. When did humans obtain this and what did god think of it?

Let's try scripture!
8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil...
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die...”

25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame. (that’s an important part)
Gen 3
4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves...

16 To the woman he said,

“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
    with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
    and he will rule over you.”

17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
    through painful toil you will eat food from it
    all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
    and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
    you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
    since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
    and to dust you will return.”
20 Adam[c] named his wife Eve,[d] because she would become the mother of all the living.

21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

So there you have it. The bits and pieces in your bible that claim god didn’t want you to know of good and evil. Satan did and because of his "deception" human morality was born. I am running out of ways to repeat myself and growing tired of you apparently not reading what I type because you seem to be on repeat.
So one last time... What makes you think god gave you the ability to know right from wrong?

Quote
So what's the big deal about sin? We all do it, right. The Bible says the wages of sin is death. Not a physical death, this is speaking of the second death, eternal separation from God in hell.
So your claim is that Jesus died on the cross for a metaphorical death?

Quote
He is not stained with sin as we are.
Then Jesus wasn’t human if all humans are born with sin. What's the point of sacrificing an immortal who knows he is coming back?

Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 26, 2013, 10:11:09 PM
G-Roll, I forgot to answer your other question about the trees in the garden.
God commanded them not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This is the tree Satan deceived them into eating. They were eating already of the tree of life. It was for life eternal. When they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they were in sin, and God then put a flaming sword around the tree of life saying let us guard the tree of life lest they eat thereof and live forever. God told them if they ate of that tree they would die, so the tree of life was guarded until God took them out of the garden.
So they couldn't live physically forever with sin, we see.
Adam and Eve sold us out, it's that simple. I hope you have a better understanding of sin now with this post and the previous one. I will be glad to give you scripture on any of this if you like. 
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on December 26, 2013, 10:18:48 PM
NO, God doesn't need to hide himself. Allow me to take you back to the beginning and show you where man stands with God.
God created a perfect man and perfect woman (Adam and Eve). They were made to live forever with never facing a physical death, in the Garden of Eden. He tells them to eat of any fruit of the trees but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You see, they were naked and were not ashamed because they didn't know good or evil, they were in a perfect creation. Then comes the serpent (Satan) which means in Hebrew "the enemy and adversary". and you know the rest. Now sin has entered a perfect world. A holy righteous God told Adam that he would die if he ate of that tree. Now man has sinned and must now face a physical death. Whereby sin entered into the world by one man, all have sinned and come short of the glory God. This is where all mankind stands now before God. A sinner in need of a Saviour, and God has provided by the sacrifice of his son Jesus Christ. For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son that whosoever shall believe in him shall nor perish but have everlasting life.
God has never failed man, man has always failed God, and God has always made a way for us. The love of God goes beyond human comprehension.

You stated the God couldn't have done the very things, like appearing, in order to not require the destruction of all flesh(genocide) in the old testament. Now you state your god doesn't need to be hidden.

You don't expect me to notice such evasiveness? We aren't your gullible fellow Christians. We actually think things through to their obvious conclusion; You just rethink things in order to maintain your delusion that the Christian god actually exists.



Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: G-Roll on December 26, 2013, 10:23:04 PM
Quote
G-Roll, I forgot to answer your other question about the trees in the garden.
God commanded them not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This is the tree Satan deceived them into eating. They were eating already of the tree of life. It was for life eternal. When they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they were in sin, and God then put a flaming sword around the tree of life saying let us guard the tree of life lest they eat thereof and live forever. God told them if they ate of that tree they would die, so the tree of life was guarded until God took them out of the garden.
So they couldn't live physically forever with sin, we see.
Yeah the wages of sin is a spiritual death. So the death of Adam was caused by not eating from the tree of life. We agree?

Quote
Adam and Eve sold us out, it's that simple
I disagree. Their actions made us human. Human as in more than a chimpanzee. Maybe you see Adam and Eve as people like us typing away on our thoughts on morality? I see two people who are not allowed to advance past a primitive state. Until they fall and become a superior species.

Quote
God told them if they ate of that tree they would die, so the tree of life was guarded until God took them out of the garden.
This is why I am not an atheist that subscribes to the idea that god lied and Satan told the truth. Adam and Eve did physically die like god said. It’s a bit shady like a bad contract but it happened.

Quote
I will be glad to give you scripture on any of this if you like.
No thank you.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 26, 2013, 10:46:03 PM
G-Roll, have you ever done something and said to yourself, I shouldn't have done that? That's your God given conscience, telling you it was wrong. It's a God given defense mechanism to keep you from sin.
(http://lunachan.net/chat/src/138044995085.jpg)
Look...okay...
I don't care how deluded you are...
But we know what the conscience is, we know how it works, and we know that it is not some magical given gift.

The next time you see an alcoholic begging for money to buy another drink, you are looking at Satans handy work.

Or we are looking at someone who is addicted to an addictive substance known as alcohol?
Come on man...

When you see families devastated by divorce, Satan has been there, stealing the children.

A: some people divorce on purpose, and enjoy the separation for a better future.
B: bad divorces come from a couple who really didn't look into the future and ended up hating each other/other stupid thing.
C: no magical evil bad-guy steals the children, the couple determines who the children must stay with, and the count makes it so.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Anfauglir on December 27, 2013, 02:07:30 AM
. Some of us refuse to change and begin to silence our conscience by saying there is no God. So yif we can say "God is imaginary" enough times, we can kill the conscience that declares God to all mankind.
I'm a Christian. and that's my opinion.

...and that's all it is.  And because you admit you cannot prove or demonstrate your god, you give me no more reason to believe you and your holy book over any of the thousands of others there have Ben throughout history.

Why should I believe in your Yahweh, when I know that Atum created the world.

Still waiting on a response to this.  I know you will provide one, because you said this:
If I can help you in any way I will do my best.
....and I know Christians are not liars.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 27, 2013, 09:55:58 AM
Jesus said the just shall live by faith. That statement alone will result in the majority of souls rejecting Christ.
Jesus said the Gentiles (anyone that's not a Jew) will seek a sign, and there will not be one given, but the sign of Noah before the flood.
Man has always wanted his way, and doesn't really care what the creator thinks. Man, through sin has always caused his own problems, and God keeps bailing us out even though we don't believe in him.
God has drawn a line in the sand, just like Astreja said last night. It's my way or the highway.
Jesus said broad is way and wide is the gate that leads to destruction, and narrow is the path that leads to life, and few there be that find it. 
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on December 27, 2013, 10:03:46 AM
Some Volcano God Devotee said something like

Quote
King Agga said Just shall live by faith. That statement alone will result majority souls rejecting King Agga.
King Agga said  non Ugagbuga worshipers will seek  sign, and there will not  one given, but  sign of Nonabuah before the tidal wave.
Man has always wanted his way, and doesn't really care what the creator, Ugabuga thinks. Man, through sin always caused  own problems, and Ugabuga keeps bailing us out even though we don't believe in him.
Ugabuga has drawn a line in  sand, just like Astreja said last night. It's my way or  highway.
King Agga said broad is way and wide is gate that leads to destruction, and narrow is path that leads to life, and few there be that find it.

would you give it credence, or would you think it was just some gibbering primitive babbling on about their mythology?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 27, 2013, 10:14:25 AM
Hatter23, I have to be honest. I don't know what you are talking about, or where it came from. My quotes come from the Holy Bible.
I wish you would make yourself clear on what you are saying, that way I could reply.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on December 27, 2013, 10:27:24 AM
Hatter23, I have to be honest. I don't know what you are talking about, or where it came from. My quotes come from the Holy Bible.
I wish you would make yourself clear on what you are saying, that way I could reply.

What I am say is some Volcano God worshiper quoting from his holy scrolls and you quoting from the holy Bible have the same amount of proof, the same intellectual weight, and are going to be treated by someone from that is not immersed in the culture the shaman/preacher is from will treat it the same.

If you want to show me wrong, do something that the Islander Shaman couldn't. Otherwise you are the same as him.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 27, 2013, 11:20:11 AM
I've caught quite a bit of heat on the subject of the conscience. When actually I've only told the half of it. I thought from the onset I would leave this subject where it's at. But I feel my time here is nearing a close. This will be hard for some, but we're all adults, right.
I have stated the conscience is a God-given trait to make you aware of the presence of sin. It works as a checkup, if you will, for the believer throughout day to day life. It says: don't do that.

Well, there's another purpose for the conscience. The Bible speaks many times and in various places about a Day of Judgement. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. In that day, many shall say Lord we didn't know, and God will say, your conscience bears witness of your sins, depart from me I never knew you
 
I don't know what you can do with it, but there it is.   
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 27, 2013, 11:59:16 AM
If you're gonna hang around here, charlie24, you need to adapt. Preaching doesn't work. We're after original thoughts, not hand-me-down stuff from whichever version of christianity you follow.

It doesn't do much good to talk about Jesus as if he were real when your listeners don't think he ever existed. Well, you can talk about him, but you need to keep in mind that it isn't doubt that you are facing, but rather our assumption that either he never existed or, that if he did, he was an ordinary human and the tales of his survival were greatly exaggerated.

You seem to be assuming that your given is our given too, but that we just don't like it. That we know there is a god but wish that weren't true. But I, as an atheist, have no reason whatsoever to think that there is any god, yours or otherwise, so I am not going to be wowed by that various preachy statements that you are offering up.

You need to find a different way to talk to us. Your holy bible is not holy to us. It doesn't impress. Proof that you actually think is a better approach.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 27, 2013, 12:14:49 PM
ParkingPlaces, I appreciate your input, and I respect your stand on your beliefs. If I were preaching, I would be much more direct and less sensitive to the ears of sinful man. Nevertheless, I apologize if it seemed to you I were preaching. But I make no excuses or apologies for the Word of God.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on December 27, 2013, 12:25:39 PM
If I were preaching, I would be much more direct and less sensitive to the ears of sinful man.

You were quoting from the Bible to attempt to justify your unsupported assertions.

preach [pri?t?]
vb
1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) to make known (religious truth) or give religious or moral instruction or exhortation in (sermons)

2. to advocate (a virtue, action, etc.), esp in a moralizing way

So, yes, that WAS preaching. That's part of my point when giving your words back rewritten by an Islander Shaman.



Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 27, 2013, 12:33:01 PM
My friend, do not you also quote from scientific documents your beliefs in evolution?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 27, 2013, 12:42:02 PM
If anyone, just one, feels that I am not welcome here anymore, I will promptly withdraw myself.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Dante on December 27, 2013, 12:54:04 PM
My friend, do not you also quote from scientific documents your beliefs in evolution?

We understand you believe the bible to be true, but do you know why scientific documents are different than the bible?

If anyone, just one, feels that I am not welcome here anymore, I will promptly withdraw myself.

Of course not.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 27, 2013, 12:59:40 PM
Scientific documents of evolution is man saying we are smarter than God and we don't need him.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Dante on December 27, 2013, 01:03:48 PM
Scientific documents of evolution is man saying we are smarter than God and we don't need him.

That answer does not address my question, but perhaps I didn't ask it in way you would understand. Mea culpa.

Do you know why people give more credence to scientific documents than they give to the Bible?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on December 27, 2013, 01:11:57 PM
My friend, do not you also quote from scientific documents your beliefs in evolution?

The difference is, science can be demonstrated to work. When someone can't support it, it isn't accepted. The only path to acclaim is Science is to disprove some previously held theory by SHOWING YOURS WORKS BETTER.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on December 27, 2013, 01:13:21 PM
Scientific documents of evolution is man saying we are smarter than God and we don't need him.

No, they say no such thing. You are lying. If I am incorrect, please show me said document.

Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 27, 2013, 01:16:44 PM
Yes, I do. Because man loved the ways of the world more than he loved God. We are happy in our sin. We don't want a Creator to tell us what our purpose is, we have already decided that. Anything that goes against what we really want in life is a mere myth.
I have been on both sides of the spectrum, and the Christian life is the most wonderful life I could ever imagine. When a man goes to the Almighty God as says Lord I am a sinful man, and I want to change, that's when life begins, it's called the new birth. The Bible says it better, joy unspeakable and full of glory.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Astreja on December 27, 2013, 01:21:34 PM
Man has always wanted his way, and doesn't really care what the creator thinks. Man, through sin has always caused his own problems, and God keeps bailing us out even though we don't believe in him.

Except amputees.  Your god never restores limbs to amputees.

Quote
God has drawn a line in the sand, just like Astreja said last night. It's my way or the highway.   Jesus said broad is way and wide is the gate that leads to destruction, and narrow is the path that leads to life, and few there be that find it.

Jesus also supposedly said that he would return while some of his disciples were still alive.  Quite frankly, a lot of his words have missed the mark.

The Bible speaks many times and in various places about a Day of Judgement. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Sorry, but no.  I've cancelled Judgment Day and replaced it with a potluck supper.  Please bring a package of whole wheat dinner rolls.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 27, 2013, 01:23:04 PM
If anyone, just one, feels that I am not welcome here anymore, I will promptly withdraw myself.

It isn't a matter of your being unwelcome. My objection is that you make it seem like that we first we have to agree with you or you don't want to bother talking to us.

You are operating off a set of assumption that most of us here disagree with. Repeating them ad infinitum will accomplish nothing.

You've made it clear that you're a christian, and providing us with details about what you believe is fine, because no two of you are alike and before we can have semi-heated discussions, it helps to know exactly where you stand on various things. We don't want to argue the flood with you if you don't think it literally happened, for instance. Or vice versa. But for you to merely state your case and don't present specific arguments against our words, it makes it feel like you are talking at us, not with us. That bugs people here.

Edit: more horrid english

 
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on December 27, 2013, 01:24:19 PM
Yes, I do. Because man loved ways of world more than he loved UGABUGA. We happy in our sin. We don't want UGABUGA tell us what our purpose, we have already decided that. Anything that goes against what we really want in life is mere myth.
I have been on both sides of spectrum, and the Shaman of UGABUGA life is most wonderful life I could ever imagine. When man goes to Almighty UGABUGA as says Lord I am sinful man, and I want change, that when life begins, it called new birth. Ancient Scrolls says it better, joy unspeakable and full glory.

Still more preaching by the Islander Savage.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 27, 2013, 01:38:00 PM
My dear, our Lord never said he would come back in that day. You will find that nowhere in the Bible. Jesus plainly said no one knows when he shall return, not even the angels in heaven, only the Father.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Dante on December 27, 2013, 01:38:39 PM
Yes, I do.

No, evidently you do not. As Hatter alluded to, science, and by extension scientific documents, is merely trying to better understand the universe and everything in it. It has absolutely nothing to do with gods of any kind.

The difference between scientific docs and religious texts are that the science has evidence, and anyone can test those evidences themselves. There's no faith required, at all. So, when we use science docs, it is not preaching, it is educating. It is putting forth testable, evidence based facts.

Unfortunately for some believers, science has discovered that many things once attributed to the work of gods are simply natural phenomena that require no deities to exist.

 
Quote
Because man loved the ways of the world more than he loved God. We are happy in our sin. We don't want a Creator to tell us what our purpose is, we have already decided that.

Who is this "We" you speak of, Kemo Sabe?

Quote
Anything that goes against what we really want in life reality is a mere myth.

FIFY. Reality doesn't care about what we "want". Reality just IS.

Quote
I have been on both sides of the spectrum,

I'm sorry, but I don't much believe you on this.

Quote
and the Christian life is the most wonderful life I could ever imagine.

Then may I suggest that your imagination is sorely limited.

Quote
When a man goes to the Almighty God as says Lord I am a sinful man, and I want to change, that's when life begins, it's called the new birth.

Well, good for you, but I got my birth right the first time.

Quote
The Bible says it better, joy unspeakable and full of glory.

Blah blah blah. Sorry for the snarky reply, but you are failing to address the points that are being brought up to you, and I find that extraordinarily frustrating and disrespectful.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 27, 2013, 01:43:29 PM
I'm open for anything you care to discuss. What I feel I have been doing is just answering questions to the best of ability and using the inspired Word of God as my reference. But I'm open to anything you would care to discuss.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 27, 2013, 01:50:24 PM
If I'm avoiding anything as you say, what is it. Ask me now, I'm sitting here waiting.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Dante on December 27, 2013, 01:51:44 PM
I'm open for anything you care to discuss. What I feel I have been doing is just answering questions to the best of ability and using the inspired Word of God as my reference. But I'm open to anything you would care to discuss.

Well, you should start by learning how to use the quote function, so everyone knows to exactly what and who it is you're responding.

Did you give a response to Anfauglir yet?

. Some of us refuse to change and begin to silence our conscience by saying there is no God. So yif we can say "God is imaginary" enough times, we can kill the conscience that declares God to all mankind.
I'm a Christian. and that's my opinion.

...and that's all it is.  And because you admit you cannot prove or demonstrate your god, you give me no more reason to believe you and your holy book over any of the thousands of others there have Ben throughout history.

Why should I believe in your Yahweh, when I know that Atum created the world.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 27, 2013, 02:06:19 PM
I have to say I am terrible with computers. I'm sorry, I apologize for not using the site properly. I need to take some time and learn.

In response to the person asking why he should serve the God I speak of. The conscience bears witness of God. I don't want you to think I'm preaching so it puts me in an awkward position.

The best reason I can think of is this: if you are right about God, then none of us have anything to lose, but if I am right about God, you lose everything.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: One Above All on December 27, 2013, 02:08:17 PM
The best reason I can think of is this: if you are right about God, then none of us have anything to lose, but if I am right about God, you lose everything.

Pascal's retarded Wager? Seriously?
What if you are wrong and Vishnu is the true supreme deity of the universe? Or Odin? Or Astreja? Or Myself?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: xyzzy on December 27, 2013, 02:13:17 PM
G-Roll my man, I just saw your post about Satan giving us a conscience. Satan never gives anything, he only takes. That's the difference between Satan and God. We are not ignorant of his devices, he only comes to steal, kill and destroy. Through the lust of the flesh Satan gets us in all kind of messes designed to separate us from God and then destroy us. He's doing a very good job too. The next time you see an alcoholic begging for money to buy another drink, you are looking at Satans handy work. When you see families devastated by divorce, Satan has been there, stealing the children.
Jesus told his disciples he saw Satan fall from heaven as lightning, and beware on earth for he is come for you. We have no idea how serious sin is. or neither what's at stake.

Satan, Satan, I'm over here. You missed me. I'm over 60 and I don't drink and I don't sleep around and I don't use drugs and I don't watch Fox News. I need your help!!!!

I too don't drink nor do drugs. I also provide a begging-free zone, and suffer from the self-defeating foible of only caring to have enough to support my needs and be recompensed according to my contributions. I know, tell me about it.

Where I feel I could do with some help is in topping up the fornication level - but only to a point somewhat less than I'd desire, but also with large shots of shallow and selfishness so as to overcome any residual compassion and realism.

When PP is done with Satan do you think you could send him to my place? Of course, I'd be willing to pay the premium if you were to include a bumper box of anti-STD prayers. Fully functional, of course.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Dante on December 27, 2013, 02:18:16 PM
I have to say I am terrible with computers. I'm sorry, I apologize for not using the site properly. I need to take some time and learn.

Please do, and thank you.

Quote
In response to the person asking why he should serve the God I speak of. The conscience bears witness of God.

Prove it.

Quote
The best reason I can think of is this: if you are right about God, then none of us have anything to lose, but if I am right about God, you lose everything.

That's the best reason you can think of? So, the only reason you worship your god is because of fear?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 27, 2013, 02:20:19 PM
Man, laugh at me if you will. But I have no idea what you are talking bout. I'm not up on the hip, street talk.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: lotanddaughters on December 27, 2013, 02:21:25 PM
Man has always wanted his way, and doesn't really care what the creator thinks. Man, through sin has always caused his own problems, and God keeps bailing us out even though we don't believe in him.

Let me tell you a little bit about Man.


There are humans who have put large dangerous animals to sleep, so they can repair a life-threatening broken body part on the animal. These humans are well aware that if the animal had a chance, that animal would eat them. These humans are not angry at the animal because of its ignorance that prevents it from fully appreciating what they do. These humans are simply trying to spread happiness. If they could, you know they would rid the world of unhappiness. They are simply powerless to do so.

Your God supposedly isn't. Heh.

You are fooled by your ancient fairy tale into constantly putting Man down and blaming Man, allthewhile making excuses for your asshole, fuckin' fairy-tale God.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Dante on December 27, 2013, 02:23:16 PM
Man, laugh at me if you will. But I have no idea what you are talking bout. I'm not up on the hip, street talk.

Learn to quote please. I don't have any idea who you're addressing here.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: One Above All on December 27, 2013, 02:25:29 PM
Learn to quote please. I don't have any idea who you're addressing here.

My guess would be me. If so, charlie24, you should re-read my post. I was insulting your argument; not you. There's a difference.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Dante on December 27, 2013, 02:27:03 PM
Learn to quote please. I don't have any idea who you're addressing here.

My guess would be me.

Maybe, but I didn't see any hip street slang in anyone's posts.....  :blank:
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 27, 2013, 02:28:11 PM
I worship my God because of love.

Prove it? Your conscience has made you aware of God. If not why do you resist him. If you knew for sure he didn't exist you wouldn't even be on this site. You would forget about that and worry about other things in life. But yet you engage in conversation of something you say you don't believe in.

Friend, I don't say this to hurt you in any way. I mean no disrespect to you in any way, I am just answering the question.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Dante on December 27, 2013, 02:34:38 PM

I worship my God because of love.

Prove it? Your conscience has made you aware of God. If not why do you resist him. If you knew for sure he didn't exist you wouldn't even be on this site. You would forget about that and worry about other things in life. But yet you engage in conversation of something you say you don't believe in.

Friend, I don't say this to hurt you in any way. I mean no disrespect to you in any way, I am just answering the question.

Au contraire, mon frere,

I engage in conversation about a being that doesn't exist BECAUSE of the damage the delusion of god-belief causes our society. Nothing more, I assure you.

Through the lust of the flesh Satan gets us in all kind of messes designed to separate us from God and then destroy us. He's doing a very good job too.

Yeah, he must be doing a hell of a job, because I've had enough of this for today, and am leaving work now to get a start on my hedonistic, sinful weekend, which will involve copious amounts of alcohol, marijuana, and unprotected sex with a smokin' hot eastern european woman 16 years my junior.  8)

Have a nice day.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 27, 2013, 02:36:06 PM
I worship my God because of love.

Prove it? Your conscience has made you aware of God. If not why do you resist him. If you knew for sure he didn't exist you wouldn't even be on this site. You would forget about that and worry about other things in life. But yet you engage in conversation of something you say you don't believe in.

Friend, I don't say this to hurt you in any way. I mean no disrespect to you in any way, I am just answering the question.

No, myths have made us aware that some people think there is a god. We are on this site because we are trying to ward off the damage religions do, not because we're on the verge of changing our minds. Until theists can come to their senses and stop believing, we have work to do. Because the many harms of religion is of great concern to those of us that do not believe.

We engage in this conversation because others engage in nonsense, and that nonsense negatively effects our world.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: lotanddaughters on December 27, 2013, 02:38:56 PM
I worship my God Green Goblin because of love.

Prove it? Your conscience has made you aware of God Green Goblin. If not why do you resist him. If you knew for sure he didn't exist you wouldn't even be on this site. You would forget about that and worry about other things in life. But yet you engage in conversation of something you say you don't believe in.

Friend, I don't say this to hurt you in any way. I mean no disrespect to you in any way, I am just answering the question.

The striking out and replacing with another mythical creature isn't my idea. I learned it here at WWGHA. But, since you're new here, I figured you would appreciate being enlightened by this little ditty that destroys your God with elegant ease.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 27, 2013, 02:45:36 PM
If what you are saying is true. How can Christians be the minority but yet the birth of Christ is our nations largest holiday. Why has the Holy Bible been the #1 selling book the entirety of your life. Why is there a time in history that time became BC. Oh, maybe it was by pure chance.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 27, 2013, 02:47:03 PM
If what you are saying is true. How can Christians be the minority but yet the birth of Christ is our nations largest holiday. Why has the Holy Bible been the #1 selling book the entirety of your life. Why is there a time in history that time became BC. Oh, maybe it was by pure chance.

There is apparently no limit on how many people can be wrong.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: lotanddaughters on December 27, 2013, 03:00:15 PM
Yeah, he must be doing a hell of a job, because I've had enough of this for today, and am leaving work now to get a start on my hedonistic, sinful weekend, which will involve copious amounts of alcohol, marijuana, and unprotected sex with a smokin' hot eastern european woman 16 years my junior.  8)

Have a nice day.


I know. Isn't it unbelievable?


Some ancient dude made some rules, attributed them to a god, and probably lived your upcoming weekend for the rest of his entire life.


Thou shalt not kill.

Good. Looks like if the people obey, nobody is disposing of the leader. He is free to continue pounding on all that sweet ass.



Thou shalt not steal.

Good. He no longer needs to be worried about his shit. He is free to continue pounding on all that sweet ass.



Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his ass.

Good. When they go around conquering the neighboring villages, this dude always gets the majority of the new available brides anyway. And, if he wants your wife, all he has to do is accuse you of picking up sticks on the wrong day or some shit.  He is then free to continue pounding on all that sweet ass.



Thousands of years later, this long-dead dude is still preventing people from doing the things they naturally desire.

Not me, Motherfucker. Not me. I've got news for motherfuckers.

Have a nice weekend.  ;D
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 27, 2013, 03:01:50 PM
Maybe someone would care to educate me on atheism. I have noticed there are several beliefs. It would seem that it is somewhat as spread out as religion. Are there different types of atheists?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 27, 2013, 03:20:50 PM
Maybe someone would care to educate me on atheism. I have noticed there are several beliefs. It would seem that it is somewhat as spread out as religion. Are there different types of atheists?

It is actually pretty simple. There are atheists, who say that they don't think there are gods or any god, regardless of the religion. And there are agnostics, who say that we don't have enough information to know if there is a god, and most of them tend to assume there probably isn't. They just don't claim to know for sure.

Other than that, we are individuals. Since we don't have a single book or a set of religious texts to follow, we aren't limited ion our lack of belief.

I'm a full-blown "there is no god of any kind" kind of guy. I say that yours doesn't exist, the hindu god doesn't exist, the zoroastrian god doesn't exist, the coyote god of some American Indian tribes doesn't exist.

Do I know for sure I'm right? Nope. If a god shows up, introduces himself in some irrefutable manner, and proceeds to skewer me and put over a Sears gas barbecue, right about then I'll believe. Until then, I don't think so.

You, as a theist, believe in stories. I, as one who has no capability to fool myself that much, do not.

I think its genetic.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Astreja on December 27, 2013, 03:22:33 PM
Why are we here, Charlie?  Not because your god is real, but because believers are real and interfere in our day-to-day lives.

With the more rabidly religious among us constantly trying to force their beliefs into health care, scientific research, education and politics, consider yourself very, very lucky that we prefer to talk out our anger rather than act it out.  I can't begin to count the number of times My blood pressure has spiked while reading a story of a women's health care clinic losing its funding, a child bullied for asserting his right not to pray, or an elected official putting forth some stupid legislation that clearly violates the nation's constitution in favour of his imaginary friend.

Don't even get Me started on the rage I feel when someone credits a healing to "God" instead of to the dozens of hard-working medical professionals who did the work.

I do find it funny (in a sad-clown kind of way) that you speak about respecting us, yet use terms of pseudo-familiarity such as "dear" and "friend."  That is rude, condescending and completely inappropriate.  How would you like it if I walked into your workplace in a too-short miniskirt, struck a pose with one of My gams poised delicately on your desk chair, and crooned (in front of your immediate superior and your co-workers), "Hei, darling!  That report you promised Me is just a bit late.  I'm going to have to dis-cipline you." *leer*

(At this, Springy G shudders to the core of Her being)  Ick.  Even I don't like that, and I made it up!

But try to look at things from our side of the fence, Charlie:  What you're doing with Bible quotations is essentially verbal and psychological abuse by proxy.  We dislike being told that people are evil and worthless, especially when we know that we're neither of those things.  Perhaps you should let your god tell us that -- In person, not out of a book.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: xyzzy on December 27, 2013, 03:28:20 PM
I worship my God because of love.
Charlie, you have a strange definition of love then. Perhaps you could explain it for me? What I see you saying is that if you do not express this "love" in the form of extreme adulation, then you will suffer eternal and horrendous consequences.

That emotion is not love, that is more akin to fear. Further, your description sounds more like an abused partner rationalising and protecting their abuser, than emotion given freely without negative consequences. This is particularly so if you readily accept the mantle of being wrong, unworthy, and never being able to meet some arbitrary standard, as you seem to do.

Still, perhaps that mantle is the same fully-functional cloak of invisibility that your god also wears? In which case it might be somewhat cool to watch the TV infomercials, then buy one and get a second one free. Paying only for the cost of the additional shipping and handling.

It's also not love when you are obligated into doing something to repay a debt for something someone else is accused of doing. That's not love, that's emotional manipulation.

So, tell me please, how is what you are obligated to do in deference to punishment, love?

Quote
Prove it? Your conscience has made you aware of God. If not why do you resist him.
It has? That's news to me. Frankly, I think that you are projecting here and it's a lot more than finger puppets. Although it's likely as real.

Based on one of your comments my regretting getting sick after eating those days-old leftovers isn't my conscience (at least not in the way you are implying), nor is it me recognising a sin, nor is it me being aware of some god. It's actually me being aware of those remarkable micrometer sized single-celled organisms that your god so finely tuned with the ability to inflict great harm on us humans.

I also don't resist what hasn't been proven to exist, particularly when it's often couched in excuses why it can't be demonstrated to be real. I find that a better strategy than fretting about being cast into imaginary places for imaginary offences, as decided by imaginary beings. But that's just me. I'm kinda weird in that respect.

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If you knew for sure he didn't exist you wouldn't even be on this site. You would forget about that and worry about other things in life. But yet you engage in conversation of something you say you don't believe in.
Would you please pass that message on to the folks here (http://www.potterforums.com/), here (http://www.trekbbs.com/), and here (http://www.lotrplaza.com). When you've attended to those, please let me know and, together, we can work on the others.

Quote
Friend, I don't say this to hurt you in any way. I mean no disrespect to you in any way, I am just answering the question.
Pretty much the same here.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Anfauglir on December 27, 2013, 03:35:49 PM
If anyone, just one, feels that I am not welcome here anymore, I will promptly withdraw myself.

I don't believe you.  You've lied to me before, why should I believe this?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 27, 2013, 03:41:36 PM
ParkingPlaces, thank you, that was very informative. I have a better understanding.

I'm going to take some time and see if I can figure out the proper use of this site.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 27, 2013, 10:10:59 PM
I'm going to take some time and see if I can figure out the proper use of this site.

You must be joking...

Uses for this site.

A: debating with theists.
B: debating with atheists.
C: chilling out in the chatter forum, and posting whatever you want.
D: getting confined to the shelter and enjoying the fact that no one is allowed to - darwin you.

It is actually pretty simple. There are atheists, who say that they don't think there are gods or any god, regardless of the religion. And there are agnostics, who say that we don't have enough information to know if there is a god, and most of them tend to assume there probably isn't. They just don't claim to know for sure.

Not to be a nitpicker, but agnosticism is based on knowledge, atheism is based on belief (or lack of belief in this case).
You can be a Gnostic atheist, or an agnostic atheist.
The same way as you can be a Gnostic theist, or an agnostic theist.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 28, 2013, 06:27:21 AM
I remember reading a post yesterday that stated Jesus never healed an amputee.

What is halt and maimed in the Bible? Let's see what Jesus said.

Matthew 18:8  Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee, it is better for thee to enter into life halt and maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Halt is to be deprived of a foot, crippled. Jesus is here talking about the foot.
Maimed is to be seriously disfigured or missing a limb. Jesus here is talking about the hands.

Matthew 15:30-31  And great multitudes came unto him, having with them those that were lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others, and cast them down at Jesus feet, and he healed them.
Insomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be whole, the lame to walk, and the blind to see, and they glorified the God of Israel.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on December 28, 2013, 06:33:28 AM
I remember reading a post yesterday that stated Jesus never healed an amputee.

What is halt and maimed in the Bible? Let's see what Jesus said.

Matthew 18:8  Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee, it is better for thee to enter into life halt and maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Halt is to be deprived of a foot, crippled. Jesus is here talking about the foot.
Maimed is to be seriously disfigured or missing a limb. Jesus here is talking about the hands.

Matthew 15:30-31  And great multitudes came unto him, having with them those that were lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others, and cast them down at Jesus feet, and he healed them.
Insomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be whole, the lame to walk, and the blind to see, and they glorified the God of Israel.

Do you accept what was written in the Iliad as factual?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Anfauglir on December 28, 2013, 06:37:13 AM
I remember reading a post yesterday that stated Jesus never healed an amputee.

What is halt and maimed in the Bible? Let's see what Jesus said.....

Or rather, let's not, because it is irrelevant.

In your faith you present a book, that sets out the myth of your chosen god.  It is pointless to try to use that book as proof of itself - any holy book would be expected to be generally consistent in its self-referencing (though many fail to do so in the detail).  What is important is if sources or experience outside that holy book confirm what it says.

Example: the holy book of Anfauglir says that he is eight foot tall.  It further says that he towers over people.  Can we use "towers over" to prove the truth of his alleged eight foot height?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 28, 2013, 10:49:20 AM
What is halt and maimed in the Bible? Let's see what Jesus said.

Whoa, whoa, slow down there.

What jesus said means squat unless you can prove it is factual.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: G-Roll on December 28, 2013, 03:51:48 PM
I have stated the conscience is a God-given trait to make you aware of the presence of sin. It works as a checkup, if you will, for the believer throughout day to day life. It says: don't do that.

Well, there's another purpose for the conscience. The Bible speaks many times and in various places about a Day of Judgement. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. In that day, many shall say Lord we didn't know, and God will say, your conscience bears witness of your sins, depart from me I never knew you
 
I don't know what you can do with it, but there it is.

You have provided nothing to support your claim that god gave you a conscience. It is my train of thought that you know you have no reason to think god gave you a conscience and ignore the FACT that Satan is the reason for a conscience and Christian morality. All you have done to refute that point is tell me how awful Satan is. Yet you have zero evidence of Satan doing anything half as evil as your god. Charlie you are crazy. You seem like a nice guy but until you provide evidence that god gave you knoweldge of right and wrong and thus birthed morality you are nuts for thinking god had anything to do with it.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 28, 2013, 08:08:04 PM
Look guys, I am a mere man such as yourselves. I don't have all the answers!! You say, I want to see God in person, or an awesome display of his power and I will believe. Please allow me to show you why you or scientists will never see God until the second coming. I have no other source but the Bible itself.

My only purpose here is to show you why you will not see God through the physical realm as we humans know it.

The Bible tells us several times that our sins have separated us from God. This is a physical separation not spiritual. If it were spiritual there would be no religion on earth. It would just be separation in every aspect. So how, when and where did this separation take place?

When God created man in the Garden of Eden it was a perfect environment. There was no good or evil, it was perfection. They didn't even need clothing. The Bible makes it clear they were to live forever without end in their physical bodies. Then they sinned. This is where it all begins. This is when the entire world was changed forever. This is where God separated himself from man.

Because one mans sin has entered into the world we are all born in sin. The separation from God continues until that which is perfect comes again, The Christ.

Because of sin, God can no longer be in the presence of man, but by spirit. Man was the the one who caused it, not God. The Bible was written by holy men of old, inspired by the Holy Spirit, for God to communicate with us. He can no longer communicate with man physically because of sin.

You may say if God is God he can do anything, and could have avoided all of this. No, God has given man free will to do or think as he pleases. Man ultimately will determine his own destination. God has never forced himself on anyone. That's why the just shall live by faith. 

 
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 28, 2013, 08:56:08 PM
Look guys, I am a mere man such as yourselves. I don't have all the answers!! You say, I want to see God in person, or an awesome display of his power and I will believe. Please allow me to show you why you or scientists will never see God until the second coming. I have no other source but the Bible itself.

My only purpose here is to show you why you will not see God through the physical realm as we humans know it.

The Bible tells us several times that our sins have separated us from God. This is a physical separation not spiritual. If it were spiritual there would be no religion on earth. It would just be separation in every aspect. So how, when and where did this separation take place?

When God created man in the Garden of Eden it was a perfect environment. There was no good or evil, it was perfection. They didn't even need clothing. The Bible makes it clear they were to live forever without end in their physical bodies. Then they sinned. This is where it all begins. This is when the entire world was changed forever. This is where God separated himself from man.

Because one mans sin has entered into the world we are all born in sin. The separation from God continues until that which is perfect comes again, The Christ.

Because of sin, God can no longer be in the presence of man, but by spirit. Man was the the one who caused it, not God. The Bible was written by holy men of old, inspired by the Holy Spirit, for God to communicate with us. He can no longer communicate with man physically because of sin.

You may say if God is God he can do anything, and could have avoided all of this. No, God has given man free will to do or think as he pleases. Man ultimately will determine his own destination. God has never forced himself on anyone. That's why the just shall live by faith. 

 

I assume you just don't count the folks who had direct contact with your god after the garden. The ones he talked to and stuff. And showed his behind to. Things like that. They don't count as direct contact. Even though that's exactly what happened. Because that would be inconvenient for your to explain after writing the above.

As myths go, the christian version would be as harmless as the rest of the worlds myths if it didn't insist that stuff like sin was true. The original sin story offers up what has to be the most simplistic explanation for human behavior ever concocted. It is so absurd that the word absurd is inadequate.

Human being evolved. There was no pressure on us, biologically, to behave so well that even christians would be pleased. In the olden days, some people, in a culture you admire, who lacked adequate information, made something up to explain why everything wasn't puppy dogs and roses. You still believe them today, and try to influence our modern culture with that absolutely useless concept.

If you applied the same logic to arithmetic, every math problem would have the answer '2' because that is how many humans we started out with.

There is no connection between human behavior and your sorry story. Except for the part that some people believe it, and their actions reflect their belief in that reality. In some cases, it may indeed cause a few people to act nicer. In others, some apparently keep right on doing bad things because they think they're going to hell anyway. In any case, there is no connection with reality, and the connection with the human psyche is all artificial.

Christians cherish sin. It is the basis for all that is precious to them. They dwell on it. We have had christians come here and tell us that there would be nothing to stop them from killing people if they thought that sin and the Jesus story were not true. That is how much your story, which is wrong, wrong, wrong, can negatively effect people.

There is a modern acronym, KISS, which stands for Keep It Simple, Stupid. It if often good advice. But christians demand that it have a different meaning: Keep It Stupid, Stupid! Because thinking isn't allowed within your religion. Not the kind of thinking that might cause one to question the, you know, stupidity of insisting that your god loves us but no so much that he's going to do anything about it. You tout free will as the most wonderful thing ever, insist that we need it, then proudly damn each and every person who exercises it to hell if we don't kowtow to the east or whatever it is your religion claims will help.

If there were a god, the only super power he would have is being super selfish. But he doesn't exist, so the onus is on the believers. Now christians aren't the only one with gods who want dumb things, but that is the subject of this discussion, so I'm talking to you. You are harming our world. You are further damaging what is already an imperfect planet by distorting important truths and pretending you have viable answers.

I know you honestly believe the stories to be true. But if you can't look at what you are saying and understand how false the story is, then you will, for the rest of your life, continue to spread untruths, and you will help spread the damage that religion does to our world.

You were wronged when you were told the story is true. You are wronging others by continuing that sad tradition.

The only thing you have going for yourself right now is that when you die and nothing happens, you won't be aware of how wrong you have a been. You'll have wasted your life disseminating bad information and never know it. Until then, you will be continuing the spread of pain, all in the name of something that you wrongly think is wonderful.

Nothing should be able to distort the truth that much. But lies always can. And the most vulnerable of us are the most prone to believing them. Which makes everything that much worse.

Christianity is so far from the truth that it should be illegal to have the words  'christianity' and 'truth' within ten miles of each other. Until you realize how wrong christianity is, and how wrong your beliefs, make you, you will continue to be part of the problem. And I will remind you just as often as I can.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 28, 2013, 09:10:04 PM
Let me ask you Parkingplaces, have you ever committed a sin?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Azdgari on December 28, 2013, 09:12:22 PM
Let me ask you Parkingplaces, have you ever committed a sin?

Charlie, this shows that you don't yet know what an atheist is.  It would help if you backed up and got that down first, because it would show you why this question above ^^ is so silly.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 28, 2013, 09:22:13 PM
Let me rephrase, have you ever done anything you knew was wrong? Or are you afraid to answer the question hiding behind the disguise of your belief?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Antidote on December 28, 2013, 09:24:14 PM
Let me rephrase, have you ever done anything you knew was wrong? Or are you afraid to answer the question hiding behind the disguise of your belief?

This is a "gotcha" question, nothing more nothing less, if he answers truthfully, you'll say "see, see? You have an innate morality!", if he declines to answer, you'll use that against him.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 28, 2013, 09:28:30 PM
If your not going to answer the question, don't reply to me anymore!! It's put up or shut up!!
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Azdgari on December 28, 2013, 09:29:43 PM
Your question wasn't even addressed to him, Charlie.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Antidote on December 28, 2013, 09:31:09 PM
If your not going to answer the question, don't reply to me anymore!! It's put up or shut up!!

Well this was quite uncalled for, especially when you're not exactly forthcoming with direct answers yourself.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 28, 2013, 09:34:49 PM
[Preaching removed]
GB Mod
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Azdgari on December 28, 2013, 09:36:43 PM
Charlie, before it gets buried - do you understand why telling someone to 'put up and answer the question or shut up' is inappropriate, when you didn't ask that person the question in the first place?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 28, 2013, 09:41:31 PM
Why doesn't that person answer the question? Because he is condemning himself is he does.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Antidote on December 28, 2013, 09:44:17 PM
Why doesn't that person answer the question? Because he is condemning himself is he does.
Because I wasn't asked that question so I'm not obligated to answer it, and you're skirting the razors edge on preaching.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Azdgari on December 28, 2013, 09:46:21 PM
What, is everyone else who hasn't posted an answer yet condemning themselves if they don't answer your question, too?

Hell, I'll answer it right now:  I have done things that violate my idea of morality before.  As a result, they felt wrong.

The problem with your question isn't what it's getting at, but again, how it's worded.  It's worded in such a way as to smuggle in assumptions if it's answered point-blank.  It's like how the question "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" smuggles the assumption that you've beat your wife in the past.

Antidote was merely calling you on this.  He doesn't need to answer your question to do so.  Especially since you never asked him your question in the first place.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 28, 2013, 09:53:10 PM
The bottom line is this.

If he says yes, I have sinned. Then he is saying I am a sinner, in need of a Redeemer.

If he says no, then he must be God, because no one else on earth can truthfully make that claim.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Antidote on December 28, 2013, 09:56:58 PM
The bottom line is this.

If he says yes, I have sinned. Then he is saying I am a sinner, in need of a Redeemer.

If he says no, then he must be God, because no one else on earth can truthfully make that claim.

You just proved my point.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 28, 2013, 10:00:17 PM
Religious or not, we have all sinned and fell short of the Glory of God. And that cuts like a knife my friend.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Antidote on December 28, 2013, 10:02:10 PM
"Sin" is a blanket statement, which has been redefined many, many times by theists, it's a moving goal post.
Therefore I reject the concept of sin; by the way, how are those clothes of mixed cloths doing you? What about those shellfish?
See why I think sin is ridiculous?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 28, 2013, 10:08:39 PM
Your own conscience bears witness that what I have said is true, whether you admit it or not!
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Antidote on December 28, 2013, 10:10:12 PM
charlie24, please refer to this:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,21732.0.html

You keep preaching to us.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 28, 2013, 10:11:47 PM
Let me ask you Parkingplaces, have you ever committed a sin?

Nope. I've done things that are wrong, but the christian definition of sin does not apply. Because it makes up so much crap to go along with whatever one does wrong that it is useless.

There is right and wrong. There is not sin. That is a purely christian concept that distorts everything it touches. It is useless.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 28, 2013, 10:21:55 PM
Sin is just a word to identify wrong doing. Similar to your name that identifies who you are. It doesn't matter what word you use, it's one in the same.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Antidote on December 28, 2013, 10:23:12 PM
Sin is just a word to identify wrong doing. Similar to your name that identifies who you are. It doesn't matter what word you use, it's one in the same.

You couldn't be more wrong, sin is a concept. If it was simply a word, we wouldn't have such a problem with it, but it's not, theists use it as a weapon against non-believers to make them feel guilty.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 28, 2013, 10:27:06 PM
Aren't you guys glad I'm here. It would have been another boring Sat. night if not for me.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 28, 2013, 10:38:42 PM
The only guilt I feel is the wrong I have committed against the one who loves me and gave himself for me. There is nothing you could say that would cause me to have guilt. Not even calling a showdown with a makeshift politician who avoids questions.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 28, 2013, 10:50:26 PM
What we are talking about is the most important conversation that any man could ever engage in. At times all of us will have to be stern. But hopefully we can each learn from one another.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 28, 2013, 10:57:44 PM
Sin is just a word to identify wrong doing. Similar to your name that identifies who you are. It doesn't matter what word you use, it's one in the same.

No it isn't. It is a loaded word, used to diminish humans and blame them for the act of others. It is the equivalent of a racial epithet, a sexist rant or a nationalistic tirade. All it contributes to any conversation is a threat, and all it accomplishes is to further separate the user of the world from reality.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 28, 2013, 10:58:07 PM
Aren't you guys glad I'm here. It would have been another boring Sat. night if not for me.

I am not that glad, although your posts are futile yet funny, they are still shit.

The only guilt I feel is the wrong I have committed against the one who loves me and gave himself for me. There is nothing you could say that would cause me to have guilt. Not even calling a showdown with a makeshift politician who avoids questions.

What? 9_6
Thats the only guilt you feel?
I get called "robot" for being stupidly non-empathetic, yet i feel plenty of guilt.

What we are talking about is the most important conversation that any man could ever engage in. At times all of us will have to be stern. But hopefully we can each learn from one another.

I think i can translate this...

"But hopefully you will convert to my obviously false religion, and i will totally ignore all of your evidence because the bible says otherwise, after-all, trust a 2000 year old book written by retarded goat herders."
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 28, 2013, 11:05:02 PM
Retarded goat herders. Never heard that on before. Actually that's pretty funny.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 28, 2013, 11:07:59 PM
What does your religion offer? From what I gather when I die that's it. Explain yourself.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Antidote on December 28, 2013, 11:08:51 PM
Alright, get one thing straight: Atheism is as much a religion as not collecting stamps is a hobby.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 28, 2013, 11:09:33 PM
Retarded goat herders. Never heard that on before. Actually that's pretty funny.

You see, 2000 years ago, EVERYONE was retarded (excluding outliers) , they thought leeches would cure illnesses (to an extent they do...), and the fact that they were in the middle east (hence goats) makes it likely that anyone with the power to make such a book, likely owned a lot of property, thus goats.

What does your religion offer? From what I gather when I die that's it. Explain yourself.

I am not in a religion, nor do i know of one that states that death is the end.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Aaron123 on December 28, 2013, 11:13:25 PM
Look guys, I am a mere man such as yourselves. I don't have all the answers!! You say, I want to see God in person, or an awesome display of his power and I will believe. Please allow me to show you why you or scientists will never see God until the second coming. I have no other source but the Bible itself.

So no evidence for god's existence is forthcoming.  How convenient.

(oh yes, you said that stuff about "the second coming", but that's just another way of saying "it'll never happen".)


Quote
My only purpose here is to show you why you will not see God through the physical realm as we humans know it.

That's just another way of saying there is no evidence for god's existence.



Quote
You may say if God is God he can do anything, and could have avoided all of this. No, God has given man free will to do or think as he pleases. Man ultimately will determine his own destination. God has never forced himself on anyone. That's why the just shall live by faith.

Then god will have us burn in hell forever for not following him exactly as he wants.  So much for free will.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 28, 2013, 11:14:27 PM
But keep going. I don't understand your beliefs.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 28, 2013, 11:15:43 PM
But keep going. I don't understand your beliefs.

The criteria for "atheist" has 0 beliefs, it does however has the disbelief in deities.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 28, 2013, 11:18:05 PM
What does your religion offer? From what I gather when I die that's it. Explain yourself.

It isn't a religion. It doesn't meet the definition. And it doesn't have anything to offer. Other than the truth. Which is available no matter what you believe, as long as you don't fool yourself.

And yes, death is the end. It would be nice if it wasn't, but we don't have anything to say about it.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 28, 2013, 11:20:05 PM
None of our beliefs are based on explanations of reality that are 2,000 years old, from a time when people knew little about the universe.

Other than that, we're on our own.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 28, 2013, 11:23:29 PM
[Preaching removed
GB Mod]
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Aaron123 on December 28, 2013, 11:24:38 PM
What does your religion offer? From what I gather when I die that's it. Explain yourself.

First off, atheism is not a religion.

Second, atheism is only the conclusion you draw when there is an utter lack of evidence for the existence of god-beings.

What if there is no evidence that Santa Claus really does fly in a sleigh and goes down the chimney?  Then you don't believe that he exists.  How is that a religion?

What if there is no evidence that the Tooth Fairy goes around exchanging teeth for quarters?  Then you don't believe that it exists.  How is that a religion?

What if there is no evidence that there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow?  Then you don't believe that it exists.  How is that a religion?

Same things with god-beings.  When there is no evidence for their existence, when believers comes up with excuses for the non-evidence, when we're told not to expect anything unless we believe, when the best they can offer is "gotta have faith"... then, yes, we're not going to think the idea has much credibility.  This is not an "offering", it's only the logical step you take when you're confronted with an idea that has little to no creditable backing.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 28, 2013, 11:32:16 PM
But ParkingPlace, you don't have to live a life with no hope. I imagine that as being most miserable of all men. There is much more than life and then death.

*sigh*

You see, when organisms die, even humans, they DIE.
They don't go to a magical paradise, they die.
They don't meet with an omni-max being, they die.
Its simple biology, deal with it, if you refuse to research how an organism functions, its not my fault.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Azdgari on December 28, 2013, 11:34:55 PM
The user "charlie24" does not yet understand how to have an online exchange.  It is unfair of all of you to keep on as though he can keep up.  You should all probably dial it back and work on explaining how discussion works, before actually trying to discuss anything related to this forum's topics.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 28, 2013, 11:36:36 PM
I agree with you...this requires a new thread, or should get back on topic....
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 28, 2013, 11:42:46 PM
But ParkingPlace, you don't have to live a life with no hope. I imagine that as being most miserable of all men. There is much more than life and then death.

Sadly, you feel that way because you have been told there is an alternative, and because of that, you haven't given any serious thought to what is real.

I'm just fine. I'm in my 60's, I could die any day, or live another 30 years, and whatever happens, happens. But in the meantime, I'm enjoying my life. I'm learning some computer programming for the first time, because I want to build an automated piece of woodworking equipment, and I need to know programming to control it. I'm spending a lot of my time helping two good friends who have serious health problems and both of them appreciate my upbeat attitude. I live in the woods and enjoy walking around in the forest and enjoying nature. I sleep well, can outwork people half my age and enjoy every day.

Ii have nothing to worry about, so I have no reason to be hopeless.

I didn't exist before I was born and I got along fine. Going back to non-existence, though not likely to be my favoritest thing ever, is inevitable. There is no reason to dwell on it. In fact, dwelling on it would make the now kind of sucky, especially if I felt a need to go into fear mode.

Whatever happens, happens. In the meantime, I'm just fine.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: charlie24 on December 28, 2013, 11:43:34 PM
What does your religion offer? From what I gather when I die that's it. Explain yourself.

First off, atheism is not a religion.

Second, atheism is only the conclusion you draw when there is an utter lack of evidence for the existence of god-beings.

What if there is no evidence that Santa Claus really does fly in a sleigh and goes down the chimney?  Then you don't believe that he exists.  How is that a religion?

What if there is no evidence that the Tooth Fairy goes around exchanging teeth for quarters?  Then you don't believe that it exists.  How is that a religion?

What if there is no evidence that there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow?  Then you don't believe that it exists.  How is that a religion?

Same things with god-beings.  When there is no evidence for their existence, when believers comes up with excuses for the non-evidence, when we're told not to expect anything unless we believe, when the best they can offer is "gotta have faith"... then, yes, we're not going to think the idea has much credibility.  This is not an "offering", it's only the logical step you take when you're confronted with an idea that has little to no creditable backing.
You express yourself very well. My belief is a religion, it's not physical as you probably know, it's spiritual.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 28, 2013, 11:47:14 PM
You express yourself very well. My belief is a religion, it's not physical as you probably know, it's spiritual.

Do you concede on your "atheism is a religion" stance?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Aaron123 on December 28, 2013, 11:51:16 PM
You express yourself very well.

Thanks.


Quote
My belief is a religion, it's not physical as you probably know, it's spiritual.

And this ties in to stuff I said earlier.  I know what it means to "be spiritual", but how do you expect us to give the idea credence?

I assume that, by now, you're aware of how hung up we are with this notion of 'evidence' and whenever it can be examined.  Are you willing and able to provide such?  Otherwise, this idea isn't going to last very long around here.

Just saying...
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Anfauglir on December 29, 2013, 04:40:41 AM
Let me rephrase, have you ever done anything you knew was wrong?

The bottom line is this.

If he says yes, I have sinned. Then he is saying I am a sinner, in need of a Redeemer.
If he says no, then he must be God, because no one else on earth can truthfully make that claim.

Charlie, I would like you to consider this.

Suppose a child was raised to think that stealing was right.  Then one day they didn't steal, and felt really bad about it.
Suppose a child was raised to think that stealing was wrong.  Then one day they stole, and felt really bad about it.

By your logic, BOTH children sinned.  Both needed a Redeemer - the child who refused to steal needs a Redeemer, you claim.

Can you see where your juvenile logic is flawed?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on December 29, 2013, 08:43:53 AM
Religious or not, we have all fail to completely show our honor on the Battle feild and fell short of the Glory of Thor. And that cuts like a knife my friend.

Yes, that is the same as far as I am concerned Charlie. It doesn't cut like a knife, it makes my head ache that someone who can actually type on a computer can't get they are making the assumption their religion is really really real to people who think it is just mythology.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: lotanddaughters on December 29, 2013, 12:40:19 PM
If what you are saying is true. How can Christians be the minority but yet the birth of Christ is our nations largest holiday. Why has the Holy Bible been the #1 selling book the entirety of your life. Why is there a time in history that time became BC. Oh, maybe it was by pure chance.

Because the Roman Empire decided to adopt one pieced-together version of Christianity, and also conquered Europe. Then, Britain conquered a huge portion of the world. There is a saying that goes something like, "The sun never sets on the British Empire." Even the competition(Spain, Portugal, France, etc.) was Christian.

Sounds like a real, even though perhaps simplified, explanation to me.

Much of Christianity was spread by conquering, real-life death threats, and vivid examples of punishment by death for those who refuse to succumb. Add to that the fairy tales of eternal rewards and punishments that coerce those who don't know any better. Add to that the natural desire for many people to cling to their fairy tales, as demonstrated in modern societies that don't force Christianity down your throat, and even allow the uncensored exchange of a multitude of thought experiments that undermine every version of the fairy tale that we call Christianity.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: xyzzy on December 29, 2013, 04:50:14 PM
Let me rephrase, have you ever done anything you knew was wrong?

The bottom line is this.

If he says yes, I have sinned. Then he is saying I am a sinner, in need of a Redeemer.
If he says no, then he must be God, because no one else on earth can truthfully make that claim.

Let's take

Charlie, I would like you to consider this.

Suppose a child was raised to think that stealing was right.  Then one day they didn't steal, and felt really bad about it.
Suppose a child was raised to think that stealing was wrong.  Then one day they stole, and felt really bad about it.

By your logic, BOTH children sinned.  Both needed a Redeemer - the child who refused to steal needs a Redeemer, you claim.

Can you see where your juvenile logic is flawed?

Charlie, let's take Anfauglir's excellent point one stage further, and bring in another Charles whilst we are at it.

Dicken's novel Oliver Twist is a work of fiction[1] influenced by events and mores of the time. As you may know, amongst it's themes it's also a social commentary on life in Victorian England. Again, to be clear, the people may have been fictional but much described was not.

In the book we come across Fagin and his children who live a life of crime - often indoctrinated from birth. It's what they know. Perhaps all they know. It's how they survive. Some were subject to standards many would consider today to be inhuman. Yet, perhaps their biggest "crime" (sin?) was that they were born poor.  Note I'm not saying it's "right" and, according to societal standards even then, their acts were crimes which brought penalties, often severe.

Fast forward less than two hundred years and things have changed. Social reforms have, at least, attempted to redress the iniquity of past times. Moreover, in the UK,[2] young children are no longer executed for petty crimes, the last execution was in 1964, the death penalty was abolished in 1998, and since 2004 parties subject to the European Convention on Human Rights are prohibited from restoring such.[3]

Now let's look at Yahweh, shall we? Pick whatever number you like; 2,000, 5,000, 6,000, 10,000, 4,500,000,000, 13,800,000,000 years; it matters not to how much has (not) changed.

If I understand, I can paraphrase what you've said as "a sin is a sin is a sin" and everyone is a sinner. According to your Bumper Book of Backwards Blame nothing has changed. Circumstances don't matter, context (something theists love to pull out of their hat when it's time to play the obfuscation card) is irrelevant, knowledge of the rules doesn't matter, and pretty much everyone is subject to eternal damnation and torment unless they kowtow to a deity who can't even be bothered to pop in for a cup of tea.

Previously I questioned your definition of love, and you didn't respond. So, explain to me again, how this Yahweh character is (a) loving and (b) anything other than a simplistic and, frankly, barbaric reflection of a time when "might makes right" and the primary way to influence people was through fear, ignorance, the sword and the spear?

You see, Charlie. I strongly suspect that you may feel that the problem is that "we don't get it". But, the reality is that we do.
 1. Just like your bible
 2. The backdrop for his novels
 3. Note to advocates of Capital Punishment: this is comment on societal changes vs religious dogma and not a treatise on the subject of the death penalty
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Dante on December 30, 2013, 08:53:02 AM
When God created man in the Garden of Eden it was a perfect environment. There was no good or evil, it was perfection. They didn't even need clothing. The Bible makes it clear they were to live forever without end in their physical bodies. Then they sinned. This is where it all begins. This is when the entire world was changed forever. This is where God separated himself from man.

Because of sin, God can no longer be in the presence of man, but by spirit. Man was the the one who caused it, not God. The Bible was written by holy men of old, inspired by the Holy Spirit, for God to communicate with us. He can no longer communicate with man physically because of sin.

You may say if God is God he can do anything, and could have avoided all of this. No, God has given man free will to do or think as he pleases. Man ultimately will determine his own destination. God has never forced himself on anyone. That's why the just shall live by faith.   

G'day Chuck, my weekend was fantastic, thanks for asking!

I have a few questions about your above statements. You claim Eden was perfect, right? You claim your god can't be in the presence of man because of sin, correct? And you also claim your god gave man freewill, correct?

1.) Where did the serpent come from if there was no evil in the garden?

2.) Is there free will in heaven?

3.) Is there sin in heaven?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Betelnut on December 30, 2013, 07:37:05 PM
Dante--

Those are excellent questions.  My take on #2 is no, there is no free will.  How could there be?  God (Biblegod) can't tolerate anyone thinking or doing for him/herself.  Utopias are not possible without total control of people and everything they do.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Dante on December 31, 2013, 12:51:44 PM
Dante--

Those are excellent questions.  My take on #2 is no, there is no free will.  How could there be?  God (Biblegod) can't tolerate anyone thinking or doing for him/herself.  Utopias are not possible without total control of people and everything they do.

Exactly. So what's the point of freewill on earth? To explain why people do bad things. And the idea of heaven is simply to alleviate the peasant's fears that their suffering is all they'll ever know.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on December 31, 2013, 12:59:48 PM
Those are excellent questions.  My take on #2 is no, there is no free will.  How could there be?  God (Biblegod) can't tolerate anyone thinking or doing for him/herself.  Utopias are not possible without total control of people and everything they do.

The idea of something being perfect (Utopia defined as perfect place/society) cannot be comprehended by human minds.

Thus arguing what a utopia cannot have is pointless.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: nogodsforme on January 04, 2014, 06:26:35 PM
I have been on vacation for two weeks without internet access--in a Muslim country, no less. You all have been doing a fine job on lively Charlie without me.

One question I would ask him--what was the point of the flood if all the sin came right back again? That is, if sin was not going anywhere until Jesus had his crappy long weekend, why not just have Jesus ready and send the kid down right after A and E ate the fruit? Or did god have other planets to run and was busy elsewhere for a couple thousand years?

God is like:

"Oops, sorry about all the messy sin I left you guys with, here's the kid to take care of it. 

Oh, that was a bit harsh on the boy, but whatever. Roman Empire, yeah! Take the story home and make it your own, baby! That will cover Europe. After a few hundred years of destroying the local beliefs and customs while adopting the cooler pagan festivals cough Easter and Christmas cough there will be Christianity...

But most of you will still never accept me because you already have sophisticated and complex religions that have served you just fine. Buncha sinners, all of ya. What to do, what to do...

Sooo, how's about I'll let some former Roman Empire Europeans, like the British, French and Spanish conquer you, steal your gold, infect you with diseases, destroy your cultures, kill a bunch of you, enslave the rest, make other religions illegal and force you to accept Christianity? Huh? Violates all the important commandments? So what? Gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet.

Good times. They're awesome at the religious conquest thing, those European Christians. After all, that's what the Romans did to them when they were pagans. But you still have your pagan Easter and Christmas, so stop whining.

That will take care of parts of Africa, the Pacific and the Americas, anyway. The rest of you will just have to stay Buddhist or Hindu or whatever. To hell with ya. Buncha sinners, all of ya. Losers.

But I'll still have more folks than any other single religion, as long as you include white folks who don't really believe, but just like celebrating the pagan Easter and Christmas-- and be sure to count all the brown-skinned idol-worshippers who call themselves Catholics. Nyah nyah! We're number one! We're number one!

Uh oh, the Muslims are gaining ground with almost the same story, but with promises of palaces and virgins and sh!t in paradise! Beats the harps and singing all to hell. Oh, no, here comes all that sin again! What to do, what to do?"

And so on. God comes off more like an absent minded grandpa babysitting a bunch of unruly toddlers-- or the leader of a high school clique desperate to control the new freshmen than the creator of the entire universe....

Why are we supposed to be impressed by this?  &)
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Dante on January 08, 2014, 05:27:01 PM
When God created man in the Garden of Eden it was a perfect environment. There was no good or evil, it was perfection. They didn't even need clothing. The Bible makes it clear they were to live forever without end in their physical bodies. Then they sinned. This is where it all begins. This is when the entire world was changed forever. This is where God separated himself from man.

Because of sin, God can no longer be in the presence of man, but by spirit. Man was the the one who caused it, not God. The Bible was written by holy men of old, inspired by the Holy Spirit, for God to communicate with us. He can no longer communicate with man physically because of sin.

You may say if God is God he can do anything, and could have avoided all of this. No, God has given man free will to do or think as he pleases. Man ultimately will determine his own destination. God has never forced himself on anyone. That's why the just shall live by faith.   

G'day Chuck, my weekend was fantastic, thanks for asking!

I have a few questions about your above statements. You claim Eden was perfect, right? You claim your god can't be in the presence of man because of sin, correct? And you also claim your god gave man freewill, correct?

1.) Where did the serpent come from if there was no evil in the garden?

2.) Is there free will in heaven?

3.) Is there sin in heaven?

Bueller? Bueller?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 08, 2014, 10:39:03 PM
Bueller? Bueller?

Okay, this is just plain creepy, last night i was researching on that movie.

Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Anfauglir on January 09, 2014, 05:27:21 AM
Bueller? Bueller?

Okay, this is just plain creepy, last night i was researching on that movie.

That's why so many Christians find it so impossible to differentiate coincidence from "a sign from god".  You saw Dante's quote in close proximity to you researching the film, and found it creepy.  But I saw the same quote and just thought "good film, must watch it again".  Others will be going "what the heck is a Bueller"?

The trick is being able to dispassionately view coincidence for what they are.  How many times, for example, have you been humming "Eye of the Tiger" to yourself, then turned on the TV that just happened to be showing a documentary about.........basket weaving?   ;D

Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 09, 2014, 05:43:49 AM
That's why so many Christians find it so impossible to differentiate coincidence from "a sign from god".  You saw Dante's quote in close proximity to you researching the film, and found it creepy.  But I saw the same quote and just thought "good film, must watch it again".  Others will be going "what the heck is a Bueller"?

The trick is being able to dispassionately view coincidence for what they are.  How many times, for example, have you been humming "Eye of the Tiger" to yourself, then turned on the TV that just happened to be showing a documentary about.........basket weaving?   ;D

I know that coincidences are just mere chance, but i personally find them creepy ;D.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Mrjason on January 09, 2014, 07:40:55 AM
That's why so many Christians find it so impossible to differentiate coincidence from "a sign from god".  You saw Dante's quote in close proximity to you researching the film, and found it creepy.  But I saw the same quote and just thought "good film, must watch it again".  Others will be going "what the heck is a Bueller"?

The trick is being able to dispassionately view coincidence for what they are.  How many times, for example, have you been humming "Eye of the Tiger" to yourself, then turned on the TV that just happened to be showing a documentary about.........basket weaving?   ;D

How did I know you were going to say basket weaving  :? spooky.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: xyzzy on January 09, 2014, 10:49:08 AM
That's why so many Christians find it so impossible to differentiate coincidence from "a sign from god".  You saw Dante's quote in close proximity to you researching the film, and found it creepy.  But I saw the same quote and just thought "good film, must watch it again".  Others will be going "what the heck is a Bueller"?

The trick is being able to dispassionately view coincidence for what they are.  How many times, for example, have you been humming "Eye of the Tiger" to yourself, then turned on the TV that just happened to be showing a documentary about.........basket weaving?   ;D

Excellent point. Richard Feynman had some great examples in this area that he would use to make a point, This one, for example, is of the form that something is so unlikely that it couldn't have occurred, even though it did.

Quote
You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight. I was coming here, on the way to the lecture, and I came in through the parking lot. And you won't believe what happened. I saw a car with the license plate ARW 357. Can you imagine? Of all the millions of license plates in the state, what was the chance that I would see that particular one tonight? Amazing!

There's also a good example from Lawrence Krauss, also speaking on Feynman, then onto a general point here. (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Lawrence_M._Krauss)

Quote
Richard Feynman used to go up to people all the time and he'd say "You won't believe what happened to me today... you won't believe what happened to me" and people would say "What?" and he'd say "Absolutely nothing". Because we humans believe that everything that happens to us is special and significant.

And that — and Carl Sagan wrote beautifully about that in The Demon-Haunted World — that is much of the source of religion. Everything that happens is unusual and I expect that the likelihood that Richard and I ever would've met. If you think about all the variables: the probability that we were in the same place at the same time, ate breakfast the same. Whatever. It's zero.

Every event that happens has small probability... but it happens and then when it happens; if it's weird, if you dream one million nights and it's nonsense but one night you dream that your friend is gonna break his leg and the next day he breaks his arm... *sound of revelation* So the real thing that physics tell us about the universe is that it's big, rare event happens all the time — including life — and that doesn't mean it's special.

By the way, can you disprove that Rocky wasn't into basket weaving? ;)
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Anfauglir on January 10, 2014, 03:51:04 AM
By the way, can you disprove that Rocky wasn't into basket weaving? ;)

Don't push me!   ;D
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: nogodsforme on January 10, 2014, 06:02:26 PM
Here's one for the books: literally.

I was in a thrift store and on my way out I saw a copy of George Takei's autobiography. I like Star Trek and I think George is awesome in his advocacy for gay rights, so I picked up the book. I saw that it was only 3 bucks, so I thought, lucky winner, and bought it.

As I was leaving the store with the book I flipped it open and saw that it had been autographed! There is a god, right? I was overjoyed.

Then I read the note George had written before he signed his name: it was addressed to me. I almost fainted right there. It was like: "To nogodsforme, keep reaching for the stars, George Takei." (But it was my actual real first name.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nSKkwzwdW4

So, there is a god and he sometimes does random sh!t to make cheap-a$$, gay-friendly atheist Star Trek fans deliriously happy. Or there are just some really awesome coincidences out there.....it was a good day. ;D 8)
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Goku on January 12, 2014, 05:13:23 AM
I think the answer to the original question is dodging somewhat, though it is in line with Jesus' response to the paralysed man in  Mark 2:1-12. God see's sin as man's problem.
 Also, there might be at least one.....

Quote
Quote from: natlegend on October 18, 2013, 09:18:30 PM
Not even one? Then you are talking out your arse.

Nope, not even a single one (i must admit i rushed google...).

So i guess there is no such thing.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Vujicic

 
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 12, 2014, 05:18:24 AM
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Vujicic

Not an amputee, he was born without limbs (well kinda, he has a messed up looking "chicken wing" limb thingy).

I think the answer to the original question is dodging somewhat, though it is in line with Jesus' response to the paralysed man in  Mark 2:1-12. God see's sin as man's problem.

What?
God made sin!
He should of took care of his own mess.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Goku on January 12, 2014, 05:36:18 AM
Quote
Not an amputee, he was born without limbs (well kinda, he has a messed up looking "chicken wing" limb thingy).
Tushay!

Sin is to disobey God, so it is something we do by choice, not something that God chooses to do.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Goku on January 12, 2014, 05:51:55 AM
To flip it around
What does an atheist say about amputees?
They become a burden to those around them? Shit happens?
It is not to say that atheist do not feel love or compassion and are compelled to devote their lives to care for someone in that situation, it just seems illogical, given there is no ultimate meaning to life.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 12, 2014, 05:57:45 AM
Sin is to disobey God, so it is something we do by choice, not something that God chooses to do.

I swear, if you say homosexuality is a choice, i will castrate you.

What does an atheist say about amputees?

They are unfortunate people who have limbs removed for varying reasons ranging from a horrible accident to a deliberate attack.

They become a burden to those around them? Shit happens?

A mild burden, yes.
But a child with no major defects itself is a burden.

It is not to say that atheist do not feel love or compassion and are compelled to devote their lives to care for someone in that situation, it just seems illogical, given there is no ultimate meaning to life.

(http://ladygeekgirl.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/facehoof_display.png)

Long story short, atheists are not heartless monsters who view life as nothing more than...nothing.
Please remember that the only criteria of "atheist" is the lack of a belief in a deity.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Goku on January 12, 2014, 06:51:00 AM
Quote
Long story short, atheists are not heartless monsters who view life as nothing more than...nothing.
Please remember that the only criteria of "atheist" is the lack of a belief in a deity.
Long story short, for me to not believe in a deity is to break life down to matter and energy and leave morality to being relative. Therefore, why should anyone 'care' about an amputee?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Anfauglir on January 12, 2014, 06:52:37 AM
Quote
Long story short, atheists are not heartless monsters who view life as nothing more than...nothing.
Please remember that the only criteria of "atheist" is the lack of a belief in a deity.
Long story short, for me to not believe in a deity is to break life down to matter and energy and leave morality to being relative. Therefore, why should anyone 'care' about an amputee?

You miss the point of the question.  Do you believe your god intervenes in ANY way in the world?  If so, why does he never intervene for amputees?  If not, why should I care about your god?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 12, 2014, 07:00:56 AM
Long story short, for me to not believe in a deity is to break life down to matter and energy and leave morality to being relative.

Sure, you can do that.
That would fit in the criteria for "atheist", but it would also make you a human with no more social skills than a Dalek. *EXTERMINATE*

Therefore, why should anyone 'care' about an amputee?

Sympathy, Empathy, society, instincts and general human emotions.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Goku on January 12, 2014, 07:16:21 AM
Anfauglir
I'm not sure about intervening, I'm a highly sceptical christian, who a lot of the times asks myself the same questions as on godisimaginary.com. The bible says that god is a relational god, so I would have to yes he can/has/done, but I cannot explain it. It seems unjust to me as well, but I'm not trying to sell it, it's just what I'm more convinced with at the moment as compared to being my own god I guess.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 12, 2014, 07:18:50 AM
Honestly Goku, propose a theory of god.

Heck, post some evidence.

If you cannot, then you may want to look back at your beliefs, reflect, and notice some...err...lack...of  an existence.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Goku on January 12, 2014, 07:35:52 AM
Angus and Alexis
Yes maybe your right, I shall revert to pure intellectual debate and leave honesty and openness to those with less thought capacity.
 God created us for his purpose, not our own, to question why is understandable but to claim unfair is not really valid, as we don't 'deserve' anything, as life itself is a gift.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 12, 2014, 07:41:58 AM
Yes maybe your right, I shall revert to pure intellectual debate and leave honesty and openness to those with less thought capacity.

Please remember than honesty does not equal truth.
I can honestly say that i saw a potato fall from the sky, does not mean anything unless i can back it up.

God created us for his purpose, not our own, to question why is understandable but to claim unfair is not really valid, as we don't 'deserve' anything, as life itself is a gift.

You are going to have to give some form of evidence, otherwise, your claim is not more valid than a random Muslim saying the same thing.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Goku on January 12, 2014, 07:51:47 AM
Eye witness accounts of Jesus life,miracles, death and resurrection prove it's validity and therefore give logical evidence that his teachings and sinless life are accurate and true. This points us not only to a god, but a highly relational god.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 12, 2014, 07:53:22 AM
Eye witness accounts of Jesus life,miracles, death and resurrection prove it's validity and therefore give logical evidence that his teachings and sinless life are accurate and true. This points us not only to a god, but a highly relational god.

9_9 I wont even start with how god is described as a genocidal maniac.

Anyway, post the links to your sources, that is a good start.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Goku on January 12, 2014, 08:11:13 AM
Sources... The bible is a good place to start. Other sources outside the bible also refer to Jesus such as Josephus among others.
 You seemed quite convicted that homosexuality is not by choice in an earlier reply, what evidence would you have to prove that?


Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 12, 2014, 08:16:03 AM
You seemed quite convicted that homosexuality is not by choice in an earlier reply, what evidence would you have to prove that?

That's it.

Come on, take off your pants, i did say i would castrate you if you said it was a choice.

*Snip snip*

Sources... The bible is a good place to start. Other sources outside the bible also refer to Jesus such as Josephus among others.

Saying "i haz sauce" is not going to cut it, you need to post them.

Say it with me, "P-O-S-T" them.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Goku on January 12, 2014, 08:23:49 AM
Lol, ok just chill and put the scissors down..... I didn't say it WAS a choice, I just said to provide some evidence for your 'apparent' position, as you also ask for evidence.

This site does provide the text of Josephus and other sources as well

http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Divin/D-0201.htm


Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: One Above All on January 12, 2014, 08:27:38 AM
You seemed quite convicted that homosexuality is not by choice in an earlier reply, what evidence would you have to prove that?

Choose to become homosexual. I dare you. Then you'll see why it's not a choice. You can't choose who/what you like.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 12, 2014, 08:32:00 AM
The fact that you require evidence implies you belong to the side that says otherwise.

So do you want ALL the skin removed, or leave some on? *snip*

Anyway, here is a bucketload of stuff that has been put on wikipedia, its not the best when it comes to reliability, but feel free to point out any bad sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#Biological_differences_in_gay_men_and_lesbians

As for your source, i stopped reading when it claimed that Jesus's existence is hidden because people think it is religion.

If there were some valid sources that most certainly say that there was such a magical man, it would be taught.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: lotanddaughters on January 12, 2014, 08:32:13 AM
Eye witness accounts of Jesus life,miracles, death and resurrection prove it's validity and therefore give logical evidence that his teachings and sinless life are accurate and true. This points us not only to a god, but a highly relational god.

First, you have the Hebrew Bible. Real, scientific, scholarly consensus is this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo-YL-lv3RY&list=PLh9mgdi4rNeyuvTEbD-Ei0JdMUujXfyWi&feature=share




Or, if you aren't into watching videos, you can begin your honest quest for the truth here:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis


Notice: If you type "docu" in the Wikipedia search bar, "Documentary hypothesis" becomes the ninth choice in the convenient "drop down" list. It must be at least a popular item, if not an important one. You decide.



Second, you have the New Testament. The Jews never bought into all that rubbish. They were content with their own fairy tale. It's just like the Christians who don't buy into the Book of Mormon.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jOzCMy9e5E&feature=share&list=PL1D58C69D194384D2


Or:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_reliability_of_the_Gospels
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Goku on January 12, 2014, 08:43:35 AM
Quote
Quote from: Goku on Today at 08:11:13 AM
You seemed quite convicted that homosexuality is not by choice in an earlier reply, what evidence would you have to prove that?

Choose to become homosexual. I dare you. Then you'll see why it's not a choice. You can't choose who/what you like.

But that is not scientific evidence?
As for the source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#Biological_differences_in_gay_men_and_lesbians
not only does it not prove that sexual preference is genetic but it seems quite plausible for me to be introduced to homosexuality with the right amount of stimuli and varying factors over a period of time that I could become homo or bi-sexual by choice, according the studies.

Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 12, 2014, 09:21:17 AM
As for the source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#Biological_differences_in_gay_men_and_lesbians
not only does it not prove that sexual preference is genetic but it seems quite plausible for me to be introduced to homosexuality with the right amount of stimuli and varying factors over a period of time that I could become homo or bi-sexual by choice, according the studies.

What a blatant lie.
In the section you posted, there is not a single sentence that states your claim.
If you bothered reading the section you posted, you would know that all the examples listed are genetic, and some cognitive differences.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: shnozzola on January 12, 2014, 10:51:35 AM
You seemed quite convicted that homosexuality is not by choice in an earlier reply, what evidence would you have to prove that?

Of the many christian viewpoints, I believe the one against homosexuality I find the most horrible, sickening, the most outdated and dangerous to society.  Goku, prove to me whether you are right or left handed and why that is, and we will talk about the choice of homosexuality.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: screwtape on January 12, 2014, 11:08:49 AM
The bible says that god is a relational god, so I would have to yes he can/has/done, but I cannot explain it. It seems unjust to me as well, but I'm not trying to sell it, it's just what I'm more convinced with at the moment as compared to being my own god I guess.

So, you are "very skeptical" yet you are convinced of an idea without any more evidence than "the bible says".  I think that summarizes you post.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: screwtape on January 12, 2014, 11:10:06 AM
Eye witness accounts of Jesus life,miracles, death and resurrection...

There are none.  Sorry.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: screwtape on January 12, 2014, 11:16:40 AM
Sources... The bible is a good place to start. Other sources outside the bible also refer to Jesus such as Josephus among others.

He was not a contemporary of jesus H and certainly never met him. And unless I am mistaken, he speaks of Xians, not the man.  There are a ton of "did Jesus really exist " threads here and they cover the lack of evidence in depth. Look one up to spare us the tedium of repeating the whole conversation.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on January 12, 2014, 11:19:39 AM
I'm a highly sceptical christian.

Highly Skeptical of what? Because you can't be skeptical about Jesus and Yahweh due to the lack of evidence for them and retain belief in them
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: lotanddaughters on January 12, 2014, 11:35:17 AM
But that is not scientific evidence?
As for the source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#Biological_differences_in_gay_men_and_lesbians
not only does it not prove that sexual preference is genetic but it seems quite plausible for me to be introduced to homosexuality with the right amount of stimuli and varying factors over a period of time that I could become homo or bi-sexual by choice, according the studies.
Wrong. Very wrong. If becoming homosexual was a choice, most men would have done so already.

If I became a homosexual today, a whole new world of endless willing sex partners would immediately become available. There is an endless supply of men who would let you fuck them in the ass if you let them fuck you in yours.

The problem is, I'm only attracted to women. I can't help it.

Sure, I've been successful in having sex with many women, but there are many many more women that I wish I could have sex with that I will never get to have sex with.


Put it this way. If I had a choice to either find 100 willing sex partners in one week(and I wasn't allowed to pay them), or get tortured to death, it would be better for me to focus all my efforts toward the homosexual male population.

Furthermore, I never had the desire to have butt sex with women, let alone men. I can't choose otherwise. I don't like garlic or onions on my vanilla ice cream. I can't choose otherwise. Sure, preferences can change ever time, but things like sexuality cannot.


Also, if you're homosexual, you won't have to worry about getting someone's asshole pregnant.




EDIT: WTF? System would let me type "butt sex", but wouldn't allow for the most popular term. It took me forever to find the "culprit".
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Astreja on January 13, 2014, 01:04:54 AM
Sources... The bible is a good place to start.

The Bible has stories about a flood that never happened and about a Talking Snake™.  It is disqualified as a serious reference until such time as I receive a real, live Talking Snake™ of My very own.

Quote
Other sources outside the bible also refer to Jesus such as Josephus among others.

First of all, Josephus is not a primary historical source:  He wasn't even born at the time of the alleged events described in the Gospels.

Secondly, the key "Jesus" passage, the Testimonium Flavianum, is of questionable authenticity.  It would appear that a copyist inserted the Jesus reference many years later (the primary suspect being Eusebius, who is actually on record as having said that lying is acceptable when spreading the word.[1])

What you have there, Goku, is at best hearsay many years after the fact and at worst a complete fabrication.
 1. "How it may be lawful and fitting to use falsehood as a medicine, and for the benefit of those who want to be deceived."
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 13, 2014, 01:09:16 AM
The Bible has stories about a flood that never happened and about a Talking Snake™.  It is disqualified as a serious reference until such time as I receive a real, live Talking Snake™ of My very own.

For some reason, i now really want a talking snake...
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: jaimehlers on January 13, 2014, 11:05:24 AM
As for the source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#Biological_differences_in_gay_men_and_lesbians
not only does it not prove that sexual preference is genetic but it seems quite plausible for me to be introduced to homosexuality with the right amount of stimuli and varying factors over a period of time that I could become homo or bi-sexual by choice, according the studies.
Really?  I think you'd better spend a bit more time studying that wiki page.  I fail to see how something like brain size could be anything but genetic, for example, and there's quote a lot of other physiological factors listed there where it makes no sense at all for them to not have a genetic component.  What you seem to have misunderstood is that physiological differences are very often based on genetics - as evidenced by something as simple as hair or eye color, not to mention things like hand/brain preference.  I can speak personally of this, as I'm naturally left-handed, but I was made to use my right hand when I was very young.  Even today, my right hand is the hand I use for many things, but my left side is still my dominant side.

That being said, I don't think genetics is the only factor - this goes back to the nature vs nurture debate that crops up periodically.  It's like being genetically predisposed for something like diabetes.  That doesn't automatically mean that you'll have diabetes, but it does dramatically increase the chances that you will.  Or, to go back to the handedness example, you might be able to influence someone to use their off-hand instead of their primary hand, but it doesn't keep that from being their primary hand.  It also doesn't keep them from suffering psychological issues due to the forced swap.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: wheels5894 on January 13, 2014, 11:23:35 AM
I'll vouch for the handedness thing, jaimehlers. I am in my 60s but of people of my parents generation to use the right had to write and continued to and, I imagine, people thought that they had been 'converted' to be right-handed. Of course that hand't happened and all that had been done is to get them to write with the right hand. (For interest, is being left-handed an asset in languages where the writing the right to left such as Hebrew and Arabic?) I think this illustrates the whole misunderstanding of sexuality and the ideas of people that gay people could be 'cured'.

Really, there ought not to be any question about this any more - it has been shown to be a state of a person just like handedness. I wonder if any of the objectors thing they could be 'converted' to be gay....
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: IknowGod on January 16, 2014, 06:46:09 PM
That was a pastor response to that question:

Question: Why won't God heal amputees?
Answer: Because God can make you win at life without legs or arms. He doesn't need you to be perfect. He can do anything.

What do you think about this argument


If you would read your bible, you would know that all healing if based on the person having the "faith" to receive it.  You must believe that God can and will heal you.  I have been healed by God.  I had to have several surgeries on my back and neck due to a couple of bad accidents.  I have 4 metal rods and 10 three inch screws in my low back and more screws in my neck.  Needless to say I was in a lot of pain and some of the times had problems walking due to nerve damage.  The doctors said I would have to be on pain pills and muscle relaxers the rest of my life, plus I needed the assistance of a cane on a regular basis.  They were wrong.  God has healed me of all pain.  I no longer take pain medication for anything nor do I have to use a cane any longer.  God does not cause people to get ill.  Satan and the persons lifestyle does that.  You can not smoke and expect God to keep you from getting cancer.  But, you can repent of smoking and ask God to heal you and he will if you have faith to believe that he "is" and that he can.  You can not walk in sin and expect God to do miracles for you.  If you really want to know if God is real, stop living in sin.  Repent and believe in Him and you can see miracles in your own life.  God is an amazing healer. :) :)


edit - fixed quote
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 16, 2014, 07:00:42 PM

Welcome IknowGod.

My knees used to kill me, and I thought I'd be crippled the rest of my life. But they are all better now without doctors. The only problem is that I neither prayed for relief or expected any. I've been an atheist for 50+ years. Go figure.

I'm wondering if you can explain what babies do wrong to deserve cancer or birth defects or missing limbs or other problems? Did they urinate in the womb or something?

We atheists understand that sometimes nice things happen and sometimes terrible things happen, and no god needs be involved. Which is lucky for us because there isn't one. I don't know why you're better, and I'm glad you are, but I can say with confidence that it wasn't your god fellow.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: IknowGod on January 16, 2014, 07:16:34 PM
I know it is hard for someone with no understanding to make sense of God.  Let me ask you a question.  You believe, I am thinking in the "big bang"?  Well, why don't you prove that?  When has any order came from an explosion?  I tell you what, why don't you take your watch apart put it in a bag and shake for a million years and when you pull out a complete working watch from the bag, I will believe you.  Like that would ever happen.  (NOT)  Oh, and according to that theory, where did the first ameba come from that life supposedly started from, who made it??   
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: median on January 16, 2014, 07:27:23 PM
I know it is hard for someone with no understanding to make sense of God.  Let me ask you a question.  You believe, I am thinking in the "big bang"?  Well, why don't you prove that?  When has any order came from an explosion?  I tell you what, why don't you take your watch apart put it in a bag and shake for a million years and when you pull out a complete working watch from the bag, I will believe you.  Like that would ever happen.  (NOT) &)

I was a born again, bible believing, bible preaching, Christian for nearly 20 years. I "brought souls to Christ", felt "the holy spirit", went on many mission trips, and defended the faith online and elsewhere. You don't think we have heard these arguments before? The early expansion of the universe (aka - the big bang) is demonstrable scientific fact. And that fact doesn't say anything about a god or not - b/c lots of Christians accept the big bang but just say "God did it"! See where you are already in error here?

The other argument you are making is also in error. It assumes that evolution (which is what you are ignorantly trying to attack) happened randomly. But it didn't! Natural selection is not a random process. Your argument shows that you know little to zero about what evolutionary biology actually states. Maybe let's start there. Why would you assume to know something is wrong about a subject you haven't studied?

Btw, you could refute the fact of evolution tomorrow (hypothetically) and that still wouldn't lend one bit of credibility to your BELIEF about some thing you call "God". Just like everyone else you would still have all your work ahead of you to demonstrate your claims are not just superstition.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: nogodsforme on January 16, 2014, 07:38:58 PM
I know it is hard for someone with no understanding to make sense of God.  Let me ask you a question.  You believe, I am thinking in the "big bang"?  Well, why don't you prove that?  When has any order came from an explosion?  I tell you what, why don't you take your watch apart put it in a bag and shake for a million years and when you pull out a complete working watch from the bag, I will believe you.  Like that would ever happen.  (NOT) &)

Non sequitor much? What does a watch in a bag have to do with what Parking Places said?[1]  :?

You gave a testimonial that described how you were healed from your physical injuries by praying to god. You stated very clearly that such healing comes from god and you can't expect healing if you "walk in sin". PP said that he was also healed, but was an atheist who never prayed. I have similar experiences as an atheist. I "walk in sin" and have recovered from some pretty serious ailments without any prayer or intervention from any gods.

What is your explanation for why an atheist "walking in sin" would find healing without god, while many devoutly faithful believers pray and find no similar healing? You cannot hope to slip away or change the subject to "spiritual healing" or some such, because you introduced the topic of being healed of physical ailments.

That is the point you need to address.

If you want to discuss the origins of the universe or the theory of evolution, that is fine. We love to discuss those things, but not in this thread.
 1. Aside from the point that if god wanted to, he could certainly make a working watch come out of shaking a bag of parts, right? That would be magic, not science. Science never suggests that anything magical happened in the past. That is what religion does. Every step in science has to have some evidence. Nowhere in science can we say "and then, suddenly, a miracle happened". But religious people expect us to believe in lots of miracles happening without evidence.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: IknowGod on January 16, 2014, 07:42:55 PM
Well I see you are getting stirred up here.  Again, I would have to ask you to prove your theory.  If evolution really happened where is the proof.  Where are all the animals that are still changing today?  If in fact evolution happens, we should see evidence of it happening today.  Or, did it just stop...lol  Why are there still monkeys in the trees?  It is because God made them to be there.  You are under the influence of the anti-Christ spirit.  If you did belong to a church and know your bible as you say, then you should know that this spirit exists.  Backsliding and causing others to fall?, you should know that is not something that you should do.  God does not take lightly to those who mislead his people.  Apparently, you never really knew God at all.  It is not to late, he will welcome you back and your ordered "hot tub" can be canceled.   &)
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: nogodsforme on January 16, 2014, 07:49:56 PM
Sigh. You asked for it.

We do see evidence of evolution today. One everyday example: Each season, public health officials have to develop new flu vaccines, because the flu virus evolves to be resistant to previous vaccines. Since you don't think evolution happens, would you prefer that your family get last year's vaccine or the one for this year's flu? That would be much cheaper for you, and then the current vaccines would be freed up for people who believe in evolution....

If you all get the flu, you can pray and god will heal you of it. Works as well as vaccines, right?

Do you seriously think that evolution is about people coming from monkeys? Could you please read one or two basic science articles explaining what evolution is before bringing a pea shooter to a light saber fight?  &)

ps What about the physical healing of atheists who walk in sin and do not pray? Please address the question.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Nam on January 16, 2014, 07:55:43 PM
Well I see you are getting stirred up here.  Again, I would have to ask you to prove your theory.  If evolution really happened where is the proof.  Where are all the animals that are still changing today?  If in fact evolution happens, we should see evidence of it happening today.  Or, did it just stop...lol  Why are there still monkeys in the trees?  It is because God made them to be there.  You are under the influence of the anti-Christ spirit.  If you did belong to a church and know your bible as you say, then you should know that this spirit exists.  Backsliding and causing others to fall?, you should know that is not something that you should do.  God does not take lightly to those who mislead his people.  Apparently, you never really knew God at all.  It is not to late, he will welcome you back and your ordered "hot tub" can be canceled.   &)

Since this isn't being asked of me directly, and others can answer it better how about: Where is the evidence of anything written in the Bible? And I'm not speaking about places, objects, or even people. Where is the evidence that a worldwide flood happened and millions+ died? Where's the evidence of the Ark? Where is the evidence that anything in Exodus happened? Where's the evidence that your god exists, or heaven/hell exists[1]? Where is the evidence that the entire[2] Hebrew nation were slaves and are the ones who built the pyramids (or at least some of them)? Where is the evidence for anything written in the Bible that doesn't use the Bible as its main source?

Where's the evidence for ID/Creationism?

If your answer is: look around you[3] then you should logout and go away. You lost. If using a variation of that, like: well, millions also believe it's true--you lose again. None of that is evidence.

-Nam
 1. not a part of the "places" I speak about
 2. perhaps not the entire but seemingly a huge chunk
 3. I've actually heard that, literally, a million times...okay, hundreds but still...it seems like millions
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: jaimehlers on January 16, 2014, 08:10:26 PM
Well I see you are getting stirred up here.  Again, I would have to ask you to prove your theory.  If evolution really happened where is the proof.  Where are all the animals that are still changing today?  If in fact evolution happens, we should see evidence of it happening today.  Or, did it just stop...lol  Why are there still monkeys in the trees?  It is because God made them to be there.  You are under the influence of the anti-Christ spirit.  If you did belong to a church and know your bible as you say, then you should know that this spirit exists.  Backsliding and causing others to fall?, you should know that is not something that you should do.  God does not take lightly to those who mislead his people.  Apparently, you never really knew God at all.  It is not to late, he will welcome you back and your ordered "hot tub" can be canceled.   &)
My, you managed to combine just about every Christian trope into one post, didn't you?  And a short one, to boot.  I'm wondering if you were serious about this post, or if it was just an attempt to be funny.

The proof of evolution is in our DNA - that animals which are closely related share more DNA than those which aren't.  But it isn't magic - you don't see an animal magically changing into another animal during its lifetime.  Evolution works by changing populations over generations, and lots of them.  It's still going on, just slowly.  The same way that the tectonic plates move, but so slowly we don't even notice.  At a quarter-inch per year, roughly, a landmass would move all of 25 inches during a hundred-year span.  Evolution is the same way - it happens so slowly that we can't notice it except over a long period of time, unless we're dealing with something that has lots of succeeding generations in a relatively short period of time.  That's why most scientific experiments regarding evolution have to do with bacteria and other organisms that reproduce quickly, because they can have hundreds or thousands of generations happen within a few years.

Aside from that, the only one who is trying to mislead anyone is you.  I simply couldn't care less about your religious beliefs at this point, but I do take exception to your attitude about science, even though it's clear you haven't studied it and thus are ignorant of the subject.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 16, 2014, 08:33:27 PM
I know it is hard for someone with no understanding to make sense of God.  Let me ask you a question.  You believe, I am thinking in the "big bang"?  Well, why don't you prove that?  When has any order came from an explosion?  I tell you what, why don't you take your watch apart put it in a bag and shake for a million years and when you pull out a complete working watch from the bag, I will believe you.  Like that would ever happen.  (NOT)  Oh, and according to that theory, where did the first ameba come from that life supposedly started from, who made it??

First of all, you did a great job of changing the subject, and staying off course even after being called on it by nogodsforme. Very impressive. I was going to ask if your god removed all the metal in your back, something any halfway decent deity with healing powers would surely do, but since you're off on another tangent, I'll follow along.

But before you ask questions about the origins of the universe, about abiogenesis or about evolution, it would help if you would go to the trouble of understanding those theories and the science behind them, rather than your just depending on misinformed creationists for all of your lack of information. So I will wait patiently while you go out and get some actual information, and then we'll see if you still have questions. Right now you haven't shown a whit of knowledge about anything other than your god and his amazing technicolor miracles.You weren't convincing, but at least you stayed on subject. Now that you're strategically straying, I am hoping that you will at least pretend to be informed so that the rest of us don't have to play teacher and correct all of your misconceptions.

You don't know enough to ask the right questions, so it is safe to assume you also don't know enough to understand anybodies informed responses. And you've come at a bad time. We've had/have three malformed theists trying to teach us all they don't know, and that gets old after about 1.5 posts from any given mental misfit. So the likelihood of our being patient with you as you retry the old christian trick of lowering everyones IQ, in the hope of getting your non-point across, is minimal.

The wisest thing you could do would be come back in a week or two or better yet, a month or two, after we've reclaimed our sanity. This latest onslaught of ill-informed 'teachers' has been tiring.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: HAL on January 16, 2014, 08:37:31 PM
If in fact evolution happens, we should see evidence of it happening today.  Or, did it just stop...

It hasn't stopped. It just takes so long you can't see a dramatic change in most macroscopic animals in your lifetime. That's why we look at the geologic record which will show it happening.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: shnozzola on January 16, 2014, 08:38:16 PM
  I have been healed by God.  I had to have several surgeries on my back and neck due to a couple of bad accidents.  I have 4 metal rods and 10 three inch screws in my low back and more screws in my neck.  Needless to say I was in a lot of pain and some of the times had problems walking due to nerve damage.  The doctors said I would have to be on pain pills and muscle relaxers the rest of my life, plus I needed the assistance of a cane on a regular basis.  They were wrong.

   Now, ma'am, before I ask, I'd like you to know I am glad you are feeling good and getting through your surgeries, and I wish for you nothing but the best.   My hope would be that any of us getting back surgery of that type could get to a point of being pain free.
 
   Where did you get the surgeries and how did god do them?   Did you see god while He put the metal rods in, or did you have doctors put the metal rods in?  If god has healed you, how much credit do you give doctors, or have doctors only hampered your surgeries?

You sound as though you may not have as much faith in your doctors as you do in god - is that true?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Quesi on January 16, 2014, 09:12:02 PM
Well I see you are getting stirred up here.  Again, I would have to ask you to prove your theory.  If evolution really happened where is the proof.  Where are all the animals that are still changing today?  If in fact evolution happens, we should see evidence of it happening today.  Or, did it just stop...lol  Why are there still monkeys in the trees?  It is because God made them to be there.  You are under the influence of the anti-Christ spirit.  If you did belong to a church and know your bible as you say, then you should know that this spirit exists.  Backsliding and causing others to fall?, you should know that is not something that you should do.  God does not take lightly to those who mislead his people.  Apparently, you never really knew God at all.  It is not to late, he will welcome you back and your ordered "hot tub" can be canceled.   &)

Wow.  Now I'm not a scientist, but maybe I can help out a bit here. 

Have you ever gotten a strep throat?  Or something that the doctor prescribed antibiotics for? 

I'm guessing that the doctor told you to take the antibiotics for the full duration 7 days or 10 days, depending on what you were taking.  And the doctor said to keep taking the antibiotics, even after the symptoms went away.

You see, the reason for this is that the bacteria (do you believe in bacteria?) reproduce really quickly.  So mutations happen in a very short time.  If you kill off a bunch of bacteria, and just leave the ones who had a little bit of a resistance to the antibiotic, then those are the ones who will reproduce. 

Here is a more scientific explanation:

Unfortunately, if a bacterium gets a resistance gene stuck into its chromosomal DNA or picks one up in a free-floating plasmid, all of its progeny will inherit the gene and the resistance it confers. Why do resistance genes persist and spread throughout bacterial populations? It's basically just Darwin's idea of the survival of the fittest, reduced to a microscopic level -- bacteria with these genes survive and outgrow susceptible variants. And our own less than judicious use of antibiotics actually selects for these resistant types!  http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/life/cellular-microscopic/question561.htm

So once you've got a bunch of bacteria that are resistant to your antibiotics, then you are in trouble.  Maybe a different antibiotic will kill them off.  But it is going to be harder.

Of course, if you don't believe in bacteria, then this example might not work for you.  You might think that strep throat is caused by God's displeasure.   

Let us know what scientific discoveries you are comfortable with as a starting point. 

Do you believe that the earth is a globe?  Lots of Christians really fought that one for a long time, but I think most of you tend to accept it these days.

If you do believe that the earth is a globe, do you believe that it orbits around the sun?  Or the other way around?  Quite a few people died because Christians found the idea of the earth orbiting around the sun offensive.  Let us know how you stand on that one. 

Do you believe that biological parents pass on genetic traits to their children?  Do you believe in genes or DNA? 

Let us know where you stand on this stuff, and we will try and meet you where you are. 

And welcome to the forum.   
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on January 16, 2014, 09:46:11 PM

If you would read your bible, you would know that all healing if based on the person having the "faith" to receive it.

How much faith did Lazarus have? Do dead people have lots of faith? If they do because they know god, why aren't a few every year shaking off the effects of being embalmed and having nice chat?

You must believe that God can and will heal you.
So not amputee has ever had faith, at least in the last century?

I have been healed by God.  I had to have several surgeries on my back and neck due to a couple of bad accidents.  I have 4 metal rods and 10 three inch screws in my low back and more screws in my neck.  Needless to say I was in a lot of pain and some of the times had problems walking due to nerve damage.  The doctors said I would have to be on pain pills and muscle relaxers the rest of my life, plus I needed the assistance of a cane on a regular basis.  They were wrong.  God has healed me of all pain. 

God healed you? Funny cause you mentioned going to doctors. Funny how Gods ability to heal seems to get better as medical technology advances, and for people with access to first world physician's care.



Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: xyzzy on January 16, 2014, 11:19:19 PM
God healed you? Funny cause you mentioned going to doctors. Funny how Gods ability to heal seems to get better as medical technology advances, and for people with access to first world physician's care.

Of course, didn't you know he was an awesome god?

Unlike those fake gods, and those false religions, the Christian god stays current with the times.

Hence he accepts: Aetna; Anthem; Blue Cross, Blue Shield; Cigna; Humana; MetLife; Kaiser; United Health Care; Medicare; Medicaid; and others.

To bad for the kid in Kevin Carter's photo though. "You can't blame god because that particular village didn't have health insurance, and that's why god didn't have anyone to work through".

What do you think IKG?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kevin-Carter-Child-Vulture-Sudan.jpg
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: median on January 17, 2014, 01:09:20 AM
Well I see you are getting stirred up here.  Again, I would have to ask you to prove your theory.  If evolution really happened where is the proof.  Where are all the animals that are still changing today?  If in fact evolution happens, we should see evidence of it happening today.  Or, did it just stop...lol  Why are there still monkeys in the trees?  It is because God made them to be there.  You are under the influence of the anti-Christ spirit.  If you did belong to a church and know your bible as you say, then you should know that this spirit exists.  Backsliding and causing others to fall?, you should know that is not something that you should do.  God does not take lightly to those who mislead his people.  Apparently, you never really knew God at all.  It is not to late, he will welcome you back and your ordered "hot tub" can be canceled.   &)

Your words are no different from the empty threats that Muslims give ex-Muslims. Ex-Muslims no longer accept the childish claims of the Koran (and neither do I accept your childish fairy tale bible). Why should I? These are nothing but empty childish delusions you have - a kind of Santa Claus for grown ups fairy tale that you've been sucked into by your family, culture, etc (just like Mormons, Muslims, Hindus, and more). I'm not impressed, and neither am I afraid of that book from which you preach. YOU bought into FIRST, as did I years ago. But instead of starting with your conclusion you should have taken a critical look at it, just like you do with other religions that compete with yours.

Just b/c you are gullible and believed the bible uncritically doesn't mean others should follow you in that gullibility.


Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: wheels5894 on January 17, 2014, 04:31:25 AM
Just to join in a bit late to the party....

Iknowgod,

1. I used to be Christian just like many others here 31 years ago, as a Christian, I was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis and have been a permanent wheelchair user since. I have legs but they don't do anything much. was I now believing enough when I was diagnosed for god to heal me? The congregation at my church also prayed for me but this god didn't do anything.Oddly, the neurologist who was treating me was a serious Christian but he couldn't get god's power going.

Now I realise that, being in the UK, god might not accept the NHS for payment. After all, the country is markedly less religious than the USA. Sunrise Mobility, who make wheelchairs, has been infinitely more helpful than any deity in keeping me going.

now I am no longer a theist after spending 4 years studying the bible and theology at university so now I realise that the reason I was not healed was simple - there's no god to do the healing! now if you know better, Iknowgod, then show us the evidence that makes you think there is a god.

2. Origins and Evolution requires a bit of work on your part to understand the science and to see why these things make sense. I'd recommend you watch this
www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjaGktVQdNg

and then go to this site (http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_01) which explains evolution in a simple and quick way.

Finally, remember this, even if you could disprove the science of origins, the cosmology, abiogensis and evolution, you would still only be half-way to your ideas. You still would need to show that a god exists and that it was responsible for the creation of the universe and life on this planet. Our current theories might be wrong but that doesn't, automatically, make the bible true.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Anfauglir on January 17, 2014, 04:53:35 AM
I tell you what, why don't you take your watch apart put it in a bag and shake for a million years and when you pull out a complete working watch from the bag, I will believe you.  Like that would ever happen.  (NOT) 

Okay.  I started that yesterday, I have watch bits in a bag and I shake it whenever I have time, so it may take more than the million years you suggested.  Three million, say?  Then we can get together and compare notes.

More seriously.....you are unshakeably confident that the watch would NEVER come together.  Can you explain how you are so sure, because obviously YOU haven't done the "million year shake".  How can you make such a confident assertion when you've not tried it yourself?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Ataraxia on January 17, 2014, 05:18:43 AM
God has healed me of all pain.  I no longer take pain medication for anything nor do I have to use a cane any longer.  God does not cause people to get ill.  Satan and the persons lifestyle does that.  You can not smoke and expect God to keep you from getting cancer.  But, you can repent of smoking and ask God to heal you and he will if you have faith to believe that he "is" and that he can.  You can not walk in sin and expect God to do miracles for you.  If you really want to know if God is real, stop living in sin.  Repent and believe in Him and you can see miracles in your own life.  God is an amazing healer. :) :)

I tell you what, why don't you take your watch apart put it in a bag and shake for a million years and when you pull out a complete working watch from the bag, I will believe you.

I tell you what, why don't you apply the same thing to your disassembled watch in a bag as you did for the reason god healed you of all pain, shake it once and if you have an assembled watch.....I still won't believe you? Deal?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: screwtape on January 17, 2014, 09:49:11 AM
Hi IknowGod

Welcome to our forum. 

The green text I am using indicates I am posting as a moderator, not a participant of the discussion.  I am here to help members with their posting.

Before you do more posting, please read the rules and go through the quoting tutorial.  Both are linked in my sig below.

Parking Places asked you a question:
I'm wondering if you can explain what babies do wrong to deserve cancer or birth defects or missing limbs or other problems?

Your answer:

You believe, I am thinking in the "big bang"?  Well, why don't you prove that? 

...is dodging the question put to you.  Please respond to the questions you are asked.  Dodging them is seen as a "dirty" tactic.  If you cannot answer the question, please at least acknowledge it. 

Thank you.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: screwtape on January 17, 2014, 09:54:55 AM
All,

this is not a big bang/ evolution thread. It is a why won't god heal amputees thread.  Let's please stay on topic.  Thanks.  
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Astreja on January 17, 2014, 11:32:55 AM
If you would read your bible, you would know that all healing if based on the person having the "faith" to receive it.

Therefore, no amputees in the modern era have had sufficient faith for their limbs to be restored.  We're not talking about "spiritual" healing here, or living a happy life despite having a surgically severed tibia and fibula supported by an engineered prosthesis and many layers of stump socks to cushion the transition point.  We're talking about total regeneration of the lost limb.

Quote
I have been healed by God.  I had to have several surgeries on my back and neck due to a couple of bad accidents...God has healed me of all pain.  I no longer take pain medication for anything nor do I have to use a cane any longer.

You had surgeries on your back and neck.  You may still have spinal rods and laminectomies in place.  Thank the spine surgeons who operated on you.

You can walk again.  Thank the physiatrists, physiotherapists, and any other therapists who worked with you.

*mutter mutter* Razzafracking religious ingrates...

Quote
God does not cause people to get ill.  Satan Environmental factors, genetically-transmitted diseases  and the person's lifestyle does that.

FTFY.  ;D
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: shnozzola on January 17, 2014, 07:33:45 PM
I recommend you look at this topic from a perspective other than one that is founded on "God is not real." as this discussion about God won't get anywhere if you don't.

Uh - This is an atheist website, where we debate the idea that there is not now, or ever has been, any sort of deities.  Theism is a relic from the times that mankind was impressed by lightning and eclipses and such.

I recommend you look at this topic from a perspective other than one that is founded on "God is real."

There are plenty of theist websites (where some of us have been banned - ironic, ain't it, with love, Jesus, and all).  There is even a  rapture ready website  (http://rr-bb.com/forum.php?s=58803e0d39480ca654bff257507e9994) where a majority of different types of folks are quickly banned.  Exclusive club, you know, Christianity.  Anyway, many of us here at WWGHA were raised in christian families, studied the bible, etc. Many gave up christianity because of bible study.  But yes, for myself I'll admit there is some wisdom, some beauty in christianity, as in many religions.

 
I have no idea if god exists - I don't believe there is a god, but how would I know?  The problem I have with many religious people is they do not offer the same courtesy.  Many of the religious even go as far as hating us, spitting on us, and attacking us, or homosexuals, or witches, or....

- should we talk about Islam and how well they treat outsiders?  Frankly Spinner, the new religiousness of you theists scares the s**t out of me.  Can you understand that?  Really, you all are much more dangerous than we are, and we are sick and tired of it!  Can you understand that?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Nam on January 17, 2014, 10:41:21 PM
I disagree. There's no beauty in Christianity. Anything "beautiful", I am quite sure were stolen from other religions and/or societies. Also, they guise love and peace with direct constant hatred and guile.

Nope. Totally disagree.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: shnozzola on January 18, 2014, 06:37:04 AM
My post to Spinner above -
           http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25619.msg596214.html#msg596214
  - should have been under
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25200.638.html

Sorry about that, but I still think there are spots of beauty in the bible, Nam.   Unfortunately mixed with nonsense and hatred, like you say.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Nam on January 18, 2014, 11:20:13 AM
My post to Spinner above -
           http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25619.msg596214.html#msg596214
  - should have been under
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25200.638.html

Sorry about that, but I still think there are spots of beauty in the bible, Nam.   Unfortunately mixed with nonsense and hatred, like you say.


The point is: the beauty espoused about isn't, most likely, original to the Bible (talking New Testament, and most of all in the Old). So, it's stolen beauty. It doesn't belong to them; just like they steal practices and "holy" days of other religions. Christmas doesn't belong to them, Easter doesn't belong to them -- what did they not rip off, steal, or claim as their own and once that's figured out, and then all the hatred and contempt is removed find, if any, the beauty in that. Until then, it's all stolen. Therefore, there is no beauty in the Bible.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 27, 2014, 06:32:47 PM
joining this thread late (my first post) ...

If we think that the material world is all there is, and that there is nothing after death, then yes, it would appear that God not healing an amputee (or allowing it to happen in the first place) is terrible and makes no sense. This naturally leads to hating God and/or not believing etc. Completely understandable. And if people are convinced that there is only one life, and nothing happens after this life (or possibly, we have one life and then get judged on where we spend eternity), then i see virtually no argument that could answer the original questions adequately. It would lead to atheism being the only logical conclusion.

However, consider for a moment that this life is just one of many. That is, reincarnation. So, each life becomes a lesson designed to grow the real you, the soul. And, under this concept, if you consider having millions of lifetime experiences, then experiencing one or more lifetimes as an amputee (or rich person, poor person, woman, man etc.) may simply serve to provide a perspective as you gain wisdom and understanding. For me, reincarnation is the only thing that helps to make sense of all this.

Follow up question/answer may be, to what end are we trying to improve our souls? Consider that each soul comes from the exact same thing (God, Creation, source, whatever you want to call it), and that our goal in being temporarily separated from the source is to learn, experience and grow through countless life experiences and incarnations. With the ultimate goal to rejoin the original source, only to do it again and again. It's a giant wheel of life, only, what we experience with this body is a very small part if the big picture.

So talking about being an amputee, being healthy, being rich, or poor, or tall, short, white, black, man, or woman for a given lifetime is simply too narrow a discussion. It's like trying to understand a movie, by analyzing a single 5 second scene. It can't be done.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: magicmiles on January 27, 2014, 06:39:00 PM
Welcome to the forum.

So, each life becomes a lesson designed to grow the real you, the soul. And, under this concept, if you consider having millions of lifetime experiences, then experiencing one or more lifetimes as an amputee (or rich person, poor person, woman, man etc.) may simply serve to provide a perspective as you gain wisdom and understanding.

That would make more sense if in each lifetime we had some sort of memory of past lifetimes. I for one, don't.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Nam on January 27, 2014, 06:49:50 PM
Welcome to the forum.

So, each life becomes a lesson designed to grow the real you, the soul. And, under this concept, if you consider having millions of lifetime experiences, then experiencing one or more lifetimes as an amputee (or rich person, poor person, woman, man etc.) may simply serve to provide a perspective as you gain wisdom and understanding.

That would make more sense if in each lifetime we had some sort of memory of past lifetimes. I for one, don't.

According to this website I went to years ago, it stated in a past life I was a Serbian female fisherwoman. Made me laugh.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 27, 2014, 06:58:43 PM
Welcome to the forum.

So, each life becomes a lesson designed to grow the real you, the soul. And, under this concept, if you consider having millions of lifetime experiences, then experiencing one or more lifetimes as an amputee (or rich person, poor person, woman, man etc.) may simply serve to provide a perspective as you gain wisdom and understanding.

That would make more sense if in each lifetime we had some sort of memory of past lifetimes. I for one, don't.

i totally agree.

I can't recall any of my previous lives either but i also think i'm not ready to do so. Meaning, if i'm here to learn certain life lessons now, i have to focus on that. If i could remember even just 10 past lives, i could see becoming confused and not able to experience this life properly. I suspect we will gain the ability to explicitly recall past lives as we gain the ability to actually benefit from doing so.

Think of us being in elementary school --- the first or second grade -- we have to learn lots of fundamental lessons, and the ability to recall past lives is a more advanced high school subject. We're simply not ready to experience it, but we will be someday provided we learn and grow wiser.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: magicmiles on January 27, 2014, 07:13:24 PM
In that case I'm going to start making important mental notes for my future self. Although maybe I won't remember this specific life. Maybe I made important mental notes in past lives.

I'm a white middle class male living in the best country on earth, so that either means I have been through some crappy lives already or have them to look forward to.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Nam on January 27, 2014, 08:10:42 PM
In that case I'm going to start making important mental notes for my future self. Although maybe I won't remember this specific life. Maybe I made important mental notes in past lives.

I'm a white middle class male living in the best country on earth, so that either means I have been through some crappy lives already or have them to look forward to.

You live in Norway? ;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: magicmiles on January 27, 2014, 08:22:55 PM
In that case I'm going to start making important mental notes for my future self. Although maybe I won't remember this specific life. Maybe I made important mental notes in past lives.

I'm a white middle class male living in the best country on earth, so that either means I have been through some crappy lives already or have them to look forward to.

You live in Norway? ;)

-Nam

No, but last year I watched a flight board to Oslo[1]. Based on the hotness of the women I saw, it wouldn't be the worst place on earth to live.
 1. I think. It might have been some other Scandinavian city
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: screwtape on January 27, 2014, 08:54:18 PM
joining this thread late (my first post) ...

Welcome to our forum.


However, consider for a moment that this life is just one of many. That is, reincarnation.

That's a pretty flipping big IF, don't you think?  I'd say you need to connect the dots, because you've not gotten from here to there yet.


Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on January 27, 2014, 09:06:11 PM
Welcome acturbo

Since the idea of reincarnation is just that, an idea, sans evidence, methinks I'll just assume that we don't get reincarnated. If I'm wrong, I can pretend otherwise in the afterlife. I know how to sound cool, even when dead.  ;D

In the meantime, I would rather assume life is a one time shot and have have empathy for others, rather than guess that we do this a lot and care far less about injustice and inequality.

I'd rather be right while being wrong than wrong while being right.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: lotanddaughters on January 27, 2014, 09:31:23 PM
joining this thread late (my first post) ...

If we think that the material world is all there is, and that there is nothing after death, then yes, it would appear that God not healing an amputee (or allowing it to happen in the first place) is terrible and makes no sense. This naturally leads to hating God and/or not believing etc. Completely understandable. And if people are convinced that there is only one life, and nothing happens after this life (or possibly, we have one life and then get judged on where we spend eternity), then i see virtually no argument that could answer the original questions adequately. It would lead to atheism being the only logical conclusion.

However, consider for a moment that this life is just one of many. That is, reincarnation. So, each life becomes a lesson designed to grow the real you, the soul. And, under this concept, if you consider having millions of lifetime experiences, then experiencing one or more lifetimes as an amputee (or rich person, poor person, woman, man etc.) may simply serve to provide a perspective as you gain wisdom and understanding. For me, reincarnation is the only thing that helps to make sense of all this.

Follow up question/answer may be, to what end are we trying to improve our souls? Consider that each soul comes from the exact same thing (God, Creation, source, whatever you want to call it), and that our goal in being temporarily separated from the source is to learn, experience and grow through countless life experiences and incarnations. With the ultimate goal to rejoin the original source, only to do it again and again. It's a giant wheel of life, only, what we experience with this body is a very small part if the big picture.

So talking about being an amputee, being healthy, being rich, or poor, or tall, short, white, black, man, or woman for a given lifetime is simply too narrow a discussion. It's like trying to understand a movie, by analyzing a single 5 second scene. It can't be done.

Welcome to the forum!


The "Why won't God heal amputees?" question is really aimed at people who think that God answers prayers. If you are proposing a reality where every eternal soul has to exist in this universe at some point during their eternal journey, and in this universe there is no healing from "God, Creation, source, whatever you want to call it", this question isn't aimed at you. You have maneuvered your way into a less-contradictory position. Congratulations. Another good thing is that a proposal like yours, on its own, doesn't promote ignorant, unwarranted hatred that needs to be fought against.

But, your pretty-much harmless proposal just doesn't seem likely to me, even if I have to grant you that there is an infinitely-miniscule possibility that you made a lucky guess and got it right. There is a world of endless possibility.

I exist for whatever reason. I don't have free will. Free will is an illusion. So I'm here for the ride. On this ride, I live my life as though I have free will. I don't remember being born, let alone remember any existence I might have had before I was born. It's possible that I may only exist once. Even if there is reincarnation, from where I stand, it's possible that in every new existence, I will only be aware of my current existence, that is if I am even at least as intelligent and aware as a human is.

If there is an intelligent being behind my existence, I am definitely left in the dark for no reason that I can understand.

Many people like to assume that there is a "greater good" that we will all someday understand. The fact that we seem to be living in a universe that is indifferent to the happiness and suffering of conscious creatures, I calculate just as much of a chance as there being a "greater bad" as there would be a "greater good", but I would bet on a "greater indifference" if any.

For me, "I don't know" is definitely a better answer than "Therefore, reincarnation".



Once again, welcome. It's fun to discuss and learn.  :)
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: shnozzola on January 27, 2014, 09:33:03 PM
So talking about being an amputee, being healthy, being rich, or poor, or tall, short, white, black, man, or woman for a given lifetime is simply too narrow a discussion. It's like trying to understand a movie, by analyzing a single 5 second scene. It can't be done.

I agree -  I believe the same applies in this one and only lifetime.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 27, 2014, 10:29:58 PM
joining this thread late (my first post) ...

Welcome to our forum.


However, consider for a moment that this life is just one of many. That is, reincarnation.

That's a pretty flipping big IF, don't you think?  I'd say you need to connect the dots, because you've not gotten from here to there yet.

i don't think my IF is any bigger than ignoring the various evidence suggesting that reincarnation is real. Short of having a firsthand experience and being able to remember it, i suspect that my comments may always fall short for anyone not interested in exploring the concept. And this is fine. I can only provide my perspective on this topic.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: freakygin on January 27, 2014, 10:54:42 PM

i don't think my IF is any bigger than ignoring the various evidence suggesting that reincarnation is real. Short of having a firsthand experience and being able to remember it, i suspect that my comments may always fall short for anyone not interested in exploring the concept. And this is fine. I can only provide my perspective on this topic.

IF reincarnation is real.
How do you explain the rapid increase on human population?

In early 1800, it's just about 1 billion people.
In just 200 years, now it's about 7 billions.

IF dead people are reborn, then the birth rate should be balanced right?
Or human are reincarnated from cockroaches?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: jynnan tonnix on January 27, 2014, 10:55:30 PM
I'll admit that the concept of reincarnation has always sort of appealed to me, at least as an alternative to the Christian "believe or burn" dogma.

Even if we don't recall past lives, there could be lessons somewhere in our subconscious, and maybe it's only those who have been around enough times to gain a certain level of enlightenment who can tap into those memories.

Of course, the logistics of the whole thing, if you really start to question it, don't exactly add up. Especially if you start including concepts such as having been something other than human in a past life. Exactly how many surplus souls are drifting around out there?

The stories of young children coming up with names/locations/histories that they couldn't possibly have heard of, where certain details DO appear to check out do intrigue me greatly, though. Even if it's all anecdotal and subject to either fakery or outside influences, and even if there has never really been an absolutely verifiable instance where all the details match, at least there is a lot more to go on than in the anecdotal stories of "heaven". At least there IS something concrete and falsifiable in each case. And that makes me far more willing to at least listen to the theories.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: magicmiles on January 27, 2014, 10:58:24 PM
Exactly how many surplus souls are drifting around out there?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_of_Canada
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: lotanddaughters on January 27, 2014, 11:02:59 PM
joining this thread late (my first post) ...

Welcome to our forum.


However, consider for a moment that this life is just one of many. That is, reincarnation.

That's a pretty flipping big IF, don't you think?  I'd say you need to connect the dots, because you've not gotten from here to there yet.

i don't think my IF is any bigger than ignoring the various evidence suggesting that reincarnation is real. Short of having a firsthand experience and being able to remember it, i suspect that my comments may always fall short for anyone not interested in exploring the concept. And this is fine. I can only provide my perspective on this topic.
Bold is mine.

Keep this in mind:

Every single field of science is crowded with capable researchers. From this time forward, there will never be a collection of new solid evidence that gets ignored by all of the top scientists.

Never.

Actual evidence for reincarnation? Scientists jump for joy and do cartwheels after making a discovery of not even a sliver of the importance of such a discovery.

Please. Think. About. This. Before. Continuing.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on January 28, 2014, 08:11:27 AM
IF dead people are reborn, then the birth rate should be balanced right?
Or human are reincarnated from cockroaches?

would explain the popularity of "Jersey Shore"
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 28, 2014, 09:01:03 AM
joining this thread late (my first post) ...

Welcome to our forum.


However, consider for a moment that this life is just one of many. That is, reincarnation.

That's a pretty flipping big IF, don't you think?  I'd say you need to connect the dots, because you've not gotten from here to there yet.

i don't think my IF is any bigger than ignoring the various evidence suggesting that reincarnation is real. Short of having a firsthand experience and being able to remember it, i suspect that my comments may always fall short for anyone not interested in exploring the concept. And this is fine. I can only provide my perspective on this topic.
Bold is mine.

Keep this in mind:

Every single field of science is crowded with capable researchers. From this time forward, there will never be a collection of new solid evidence that gets ignored by all of the top scientists.

Never.

Actual evidence for reincarnation? Scientists jump for joy and do cartwheels after making a discovery of not even a sliver of the importance of such a discovery.

Please. Think. About. This. Before. Continuing.

Scientists tend to be experts in the material world. If they can quantify it, they will be able to tell us lots about it. This particular topic involves the etheral (perhaps dark matter or plasma or something else still, for example), which is not well understood by scientists. So likewise, please think about that as you explore this topic from a material-centric point of view. Furthermore, people often forget that the vast majority of science consists of theories. Scientific "fact" that people take as outright fact, are often times just well-detailed theories.

Given that scientists are not able to provide definitive insights into this topic, i see a few options .. people can choose to 1) believe what they are told 2) believe it's all bunk, 3) sit the fence, as in "i don't know", 4) invent their own theories, 5) seek elsewhere for answers. 

I used to be in the #2/#3 camps for years, and then i stumbled my way into the #5 camp and have been here for the past 5-6 years. I like to base my opinions and decisions on more tangible facts as well, so i took the approach of researching reincarnation. I found various western doctors that have discovered and performed past-life regressions and that have documented thousands of cases. This is how i became interested in this topic.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: One Above All on January 28, 2014, 09:04:55 AM
Did you just infer that plasma is not well understood? Please tell me I'm wrong so I don't have to forever mark you as an idiot.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 28, 2014, 09:07:33 AM
(http://www.cas.usf.edu/~jryan/20010908_1919_eit_304.gif)

This is a ball of plasma.
We know what plasma is.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: jdawg70 on January 28, 2014, 09:19:12 AM
Scientific "fact" that people take as outright fact, are often times just well-detailed theories.
While keeping the following assumptions in mind:
1) You are currently communicating with others via a computer over a global always-on network.
2) You own or have in the past driven a car.
3) You own or have in the past used a GPS navigation system in a car or walking.
4) You have been given vaccines and/or are in the presence of those that have received vaccines.
5) You have been in have been in the presence of a person who has received X-rays as part of an physical examination.
6) You've eaten a potato chip from a bag purchased at a store.
7) You have worn or know someone who wears contact lenses.

Please provide an example of a scientific theory you have some familiarity with that you do not consider true or factual.

Quote
Given that scientists are not able to provide definitive insights into this topic, i see a few options .. people can choose to 1) believe what they are told 2) believe it's all bunk, 3) sit the fence, as in "i don't know", 4) invent their own theories, 5) seek elsewhere for answers. 

I used to be in the #2/#3 camps for years, and then i stumbled my way into the #5 camp and have been here for the past 5-6 years. I like to base my opinions and decisions on more tangible facts as well, so i took the approach of researching reincarnation. I found various western doctors that have discovered and performed past-life regressions and that have documented thousands of cases. This is how i became interested in this topic.
It's a little...strange...to have someone declare that they wish to look 'elsewhere', implying elsewhere from science, for answers, and extol how convincing they've found other scientific research data.

I'm just a bit confused by it, that's all.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Ataraxia on January 28, 2014, 09:28:41 AM
It's a little...strange...to have someone declare that they wish to look 'elsewhere', implying elsewhere from science, for answers, and extol how convincing they've found other scientific research data.

I'm just a bit confused by it, that's all.

Science is great..... until it counters faith.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 28, 2014, 10:09:25 AM
Before you guys start throwing rocks .... consider the sun.

Scientists have been telling us for years and years that the sun experiences nuclear reactions every second to produce the light and heat we see and feel.  I bet that most of you don't realize that other scientists have determined that this is not the case at all. These other scientists propose that the sun actually produces electrical heat. 

Invest time to research the Electric Universe.

I say this to make you realize that science is full of theories. Take your pick what to believe.


Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: One Above All on January 28, 2014, 10:11:37 AM
Before you guys start throwing rocks .... consider the sun.

Scientists have been telling us for years and years that the sun experiences nuclear reactions every second to produce the light and heat we see and feel.  I bet that most of you don't realize that other scientists have determined that this is not the case at all. These other scientists propose that the sun actually produces electrical heat. 

Invest time to research the Electric Universe.

I say this to make you realize that science is full of theories. Take your pick what to believe.

I want links, names, and papers. And an answer to my question. Did you or did you not infer that we don't know what plasma is?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 28, 2014, 10:13:57 AM
These other scientists propose that the sun actually produces electrical heat. 

Which is demonstrably wrong.

Electricity is electrons passing through conductive materials.

Space is a void, thus electricity cannot pass through it, which would result in zer0 energy intake from the sun to the earth, which would result in eventual death of everything on earth, and would leave it as a frozen ball.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: One Above All on January 28, 2014, 10:16:17 AM
Space is a void, thus electricity cannot pass through it

Wrong. In one of the seminars I attended, they mentioned that electrons were observed leaving galaxies, due to their rotation, perpendicularly to said galaxies in both directions (what one might call "up" and "down", if such distinctions made sense in outer space).
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 28, 2014, 10:19:04 AM
Wrong. In one of the seminars I attended, they mentioned that electrons were observed leaving galaxies, due to their rotation, perpendicularly to said galaxies in both directions (what one might call "up" and "down", if such distinctions made sense in outer space).

I never said electrons cannot pass through a void.

They indeed can, in the form of Beta Particles.

But "electricity" cannot pass through a void by definition.

Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Azdgari on January 28, 2014, 10:21:29 AM
Electricity is the flow of electrons due to a charge imbalance.  So, yes, it absolutely can flow through a "void" if we aren't tautologically defining "void" as "devoid of electrons".
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 28, 2014, 10:25:38 AM
Electricity is the flow of electrons due to a charge imbalance.  So, yes, it absolutely can flow through a "void" if we aren't tautologically defining "void" as "devoid of electrons".

Wouldn't they become radiation in this case?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Azdgari on January 28, 2014, 10:27:33 AM
Note the "due to charge imbalance" part.  No, that's not the same as radiation.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 28, 2014, 10:30:56 AM
I stand corrected then.

Hmmm, does that mean that electrons in space could be utilized for ion engines?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Azdgari on January 28, 2014, 10:32:50 AM
The charge density wouldn't likely be nearly high enough to actually use for anything.  If you were in a place where it was, then that space would probably be somewhere to avoid.

None of this, of course, has anything to do with the absurd idea that the sun's heat is due to the flow of electrons.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 28, 2014, 10:33:37 AM
The charge density wouldn't likely be nearly high enough to actually use for anything.  If you were in a place where it was, then that space would probably be somewhere to avoid.

Darn, if it were true, I would of added it to my possible Fan-Fic...
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Azdgari on January 28, 2014, 10:34:13 AM
^^ There's always the "RAMScoop" option.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 28, 2014, 10:34:49 AM
^^ There's always the "RAMScoop" option.

O_o? Huh.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Azdgari on January 28, 2014, 10:38:19 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet

Basically, using an ion drive and collecting the material to propel with (but not the energetic fuel) from surrounding space.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Azdgari on January 28, 2014, 10:42:15 AM
Before you guys start throwing rocks .... consider the sun.

Scientists have been telling us for years and years that the sun experiences nuclear reactions every second to produce the light and heat we see and feel.  I bet that most of you don't realize that other scientists have determined that this is not the case at all. These other scientists propose that the sun actually produces electrical heat. 

Invest time to research the Electric Universe.

I say this to make you realize that science is full of theories. Take your pick what to believe.

I want links, names, and papers. And an answer to my question. Did you or did you not infer that we don't know what plasma is?

Here ya go, OOA:
http://www.electricuniverse.info/Electric_Sun_theory

It's a hypothesis that's been soundly falsified.  Though not in the eyes of its original proponent, unsurprisingly.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 28, 2014, 10:43:12 AM
Hmmm, seems usable.

Anyway, plasma, AKA what happens when you add shitloads of energy to matter.

We know what it is, so i don't get the discussion.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Anfauglir on January 28, 2014, 10:43:50 AM
I can't recall any of my previous lives either but i also think i'm not ready to do so. Meaning, if i'm here to learn certain life lessons now, i have to focus on that.....

Except, if you do not know what lesson you are here to learn, you have no idea if you are learning it.  You could in fact, every day, be failing your lesson and have no idea.  Then you die - and find out that you have wasted your life.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: screwtape on January 28, 2014, 10:44:47 AM
i don't think my IF is any bigger than ignoring the various evidence suggesting that reincarnation is real.

Don't get testy with me.  I've not ignored anything.  My point was you have not provided any of this alleged evidence that reincarnation is real.  You've suggested it as an alternative to death being the end.  But only just said so.  So, what you got?  Let's see this evidence. 

Short of having a firsthand experience and being able to remember it, i suspect that my comments may always fall short for anyone not interested in exploring the concept.

In other words, you haven't got any actual evidence for me to ignore.  You've just got... what?  A tradition of wishful thinking?  If that is the game we are going to play, why stop at reincarnation?  Because, really, who needs to do this over without the benefit of experience? 

Why not make an afterlife where we get to ride amusement park rides all day, eat corndogs, funnel cakes and deep fried milkyway bars without getting sick or fat, and fireworks every night?  If you are not interested in exploring that concept, I suspect my comments will fall short...

It seems unlikely to me reincarnation is the answer, particularly if the whole point of it is for people to become wiser.  If that were the case, I would expect a gradual "wisening" of the human animal.  Do we seem to be particuarly wiser than we were 500 years ago?  I can think of only a couple examples where you might say that - slavery and women's rights.  Though, India, home of reincarnation expertise, seems to be devolving or stagnating on both concepts.  Apart from that, people seem to be the dumb chimps they have always been.



Scientists tend to be experts in the material world. If they can quantify it, they will be able to tell us lots about it. This particular topic involves the etheral...which is not well understood by scientists.

How does one become an expert on the ethereal?  How does one study the ethereal first hand?


I like to base my opinions and decisions on more tangible facts as well, so i took the approach of researching reincarnation. I found various western doctors that have discovered and performed past-life regressions and that have documented thousands of cases.

Tangible facts are good.  Above you implied you didn't have any. 

Past life regression is bunk.  Just like when they try to recover "repressed" memories.  It is usually a case of the "therapist" leading the patient toward a conclusion.  And you said yourself already, we cannot remember our past lives.

Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Azdgari on January 28, 2014, 10:45:38 AM
Hmmm, seems usable.

Anyway, plasma, AKA what happens when you add shitloads of energy to matter.

We know what it is, so i don't get the discussion.

I know, right?  It's one of those things that is clearly "reproducible in the lab".

Oh, and the electric sun idea doesn't explain the chondritic abundance of elements.  Nuclear fusion does.  The page I linked doesn't mention that, but as a geologist, I feel it should be added.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: jdawg70 on January 28, 2014, 10:47:28 AM
I know, right?  It's one of those things that is clearly "reproducible in the lab".
Heck I can reproduce it on my desk with a USB port:

http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/964e/
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: jdawg70 on January 28, 2014, 10:49:44 AM
I say this to make you realize that science is full of theories. Take your pick what to believe.
Yes.  I will pick the theories that have the greatest amount of supporting evidence and the greatest success at making accurate and precise predictions.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 28, 2014, 11:00:28 AM
This has been said before, but I might as well say it too.

The electric sun theory does not explain the elements made within stars, fusion does...
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 28, 2014, 11:04:03 AM
Quote
Past life regression is bunk.  Just like when they try to recover "repressed" memories.  It is usually a case of the "therapist" leading the patient toward a conclusion.  And you said yourself already, we cannot remember our past lives.

I suggest studying the research and discoveries of Dr. Michael Newton.  He's the guy that made me dig into this topic. He was an atheist doctor that practiced traditional hypnotherapy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QDT58Q6Zxo
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Mrjason on January 28, 2014, 11:08:46 AM
Past life regression is bunk.  Just like when they try to recover "repressed" memories.  It is usually a case of the "therapist" leading the patient toward a conclusion.  And you said yourself already, we cannot remember our past lives.

What always amazes me is how often famous or important people are reincarnated. How is it that the kings advisor has a better chance to be reincarnated than the kid whos job it was to shave the butt nuggets off the sacrificial goats ass?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on January 28, 2014, 12:48:57 PM
Past life regression is bunk.  Just like when they try to recover "repressed" memories.  It is usually a case of the "therapist" leading the patient toward a conclusion.  And you said yourself already, we cannot remember our past lives.

What always amazes me is how often famous or important people are reincarnated. How is it that the kings advisor has a better chance to be reincarnated than the kid whos job it was to shave the butt nuggets off the sacrificial goats ass?

Or as I  put it, "a lot of Egyptian royalty, but not a lot of 14th century peasant women who died in childbirth"
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: blue on January 28, 2014, 01:02:38 PM
What always amazes me is how often famous or important people are reincarnated. How is it that the kings advisor has a better chance to be reincarnated than the kid whos job it was to shave the butt nuggets off the sacrificial goats ass?

Or as I  put it, "a lot of Egyptian royalty, but not a lot of 14th century peasant women who died in childbirth"

I always used to tease an ex of mine who believed in a lot of new age woo like reincarnation that I was the reincarnated soul of the man who brought syphilis to Europe, just to get her goat.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: screwtape on January 28, 2014, 01:52:02 PM

I suggest studying the research and discoveries of Dr. Michael Newton.  He's the guy that made me dig into this topic. He was an atheist doctor that practiced traditional hypnotherapy.

1. don't care whether he was an atheist or not. 
2. "regression" hypnosis has already proven to produce false results, so I do not see why I should bother with this guy.  From my perspective, you need to provide evidence that is credible.[1]
3. Dr Oz supports past life regression, so it is obviously false.[2]
4. you skipped over the other parts of my post.
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_regression_in_therapy#False_memories (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_regression_in_therapy#False_memories)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_life_regression#Sources_of_memories (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_life_regression#Sources_of_memories)
 2. Oz is a charlatan and a fraud and anything he's pushing should be assumed to be false
http://www.oprah.com/health/Does-Past-Life-Regression-Work (http://www.oprah.com/health/Does-Past-Life-Regression-Work)
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: lotanddaughters on January 28, 2014, 02:42:37 PM
joining this thread late (my first post) ...

Welcome to our forum.


However, consider for a moment that this life is just one of many. That is, reincarnation.

That's a pretty flipping big IF, don't you think?  I'd say you need to connect the dots, because you've not gotten from here to there yet.

i don't think my IF is any bigger than ignoring the various evidence suggesting that reincarnation is real. Short of having a firsthand experience and being able to remember it, i suspect that my comments may always fall short for anyone not interested in exploring the concept. And this is fine. I can only provide my perspective on this topic.
Bold is mine.

Keep this in mind:

Every single field of science is crowded with capable researchers. From this time forward, there will never be a collection of new solid evidence that gets ignored by all of the top scientists.

Never.

Actual evidence for reincarnation? Scientists jump for joy and do cartwheels after making a discovery of not even a sliver of the importance of such a discovery.

Please. Think. About. This. Before. Continuing.

Scientists tend to be experts in the material world.

The greatest scientists of our modern world tend to be experts in "If it's a good argument, I will recognize that it's a good argument." This renders your definition of "non-material" to "Nonsense that every great scientist recognizes as nonsense".

A good logical proposal is a good logical proposal.


Great scientist: "1 + 1 = 2".

You: "I don't like '1 + 1 = 2'. Since great scientists are calculating their conclusions within the only world we know, I think I will propose a different world where 'anything goes' and call their 'real world' 'The Material World'."





You're a joke.


Once again, welcome to the forum.  ;)
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 28, 2014, 02:44:41 PM

I suggest studying the research and discoveries of Dr. Michael Newton.  He's the guy that made me dig into this topic. He was an atheist doctor that practiced traditional hypnotherapy.

1. don't care whether he was an atheist or not. 
2. "regression" hypnosis has already proven to produce false results, so I do not see why I should bother with this guy.  From my perspective, you need to provide evidence that is credible.[1]
3. Dr Oz supports past life regression, so it is obviously false.[2]
4. you skipped over the other parts of my post.
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_regression_in_therapy#False_memories (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_regression_in_therapy#False_memories)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_life_regression#Sources_of_memories (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_life_regression#Sources_of_memories)
 2. Oz is a charlatan and a fraud and anything he's pushing should be assumed to be false
http://www.oprah.com/health/Does-Past-Life-Regression-Work (http://www.oprah.com/health/Does-Past-Life-Regression-Work)

Did any of you take time to research Dr. Michael Newton's work before posting  to this thread? How about Dr. Ian Stevenson?  As for Dr. Oz, other than recognizing his name, i don't know anything about his work -- but I'll take your word for it that he's a charlatan and a fraud. I'm sure he's not the first and he won't be the last.

As for #4, I'm not here to argue ... i suspect that you'll continue to believe what you want, and in your eyes, be convinced that you have successfully debunked whatever anyone posts that doesn't fit your views. That's fine. I posted to give people something to consider as to "why god (or God) doesn't heal amputees".
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 28, 2014, 02:56:06 PM
Quote

You're a joke.

Once again, welcome to the forum.  ;)

I think what you meant to say is that what i post here is a joke -- seeing as you don't actually know me.

If it makes you feel good to be an atheist, by all means, don't let anyone stop you from enjoying it.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: One Above All on January 28, 2014, 02:58:20 PM
acturbo, I'm still waiting for an answer to my question. Don't make me put it in big, bold letters.

Did you or did you not infer that we don't know what plasma is?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 28, 2014, 03:23:29 PM
acturbo, I'm still waiting for an answer to my question. Don't make me put it in big, bold letters.

Did you or did you not infer that we don't know what plasma is?

Actually, i should have left it at "dark matter", which was really my point, but included plasma not realizing that you guys would behave this way. I'll be choosing my words more carefully going forward. As for "dark matter", that ball is in your court.

As for the Electric Universe, check out this short documentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AUA7XS0TvA
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: jdawg70 on January 28, 2014, 03:29:22 PM
acturbo, I'm still waiting for an answer to my question. Don't make me put it in big, bold letters.

Did you or did you not infer that we don't know what plasma is?

Actually, i should have left it at "dark matter", which was really my point, but included plasma not realizing that you guys would behave this way. I'll be choosing my words more carefully going forward. As for "dark matter", that ball is in your court.

Hang on for a sec...is your point simply that there are some things that we don't understand?

I'm not sure you'll find anyone on this forum that disagrees with that.  The point may be valid, but is about as revelatory as making the point that 'word' is a word.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: One Above All on January 28, 2014, 03:36:11 PM
Actually, i should have left it at "dark matter", which was really my point, but included plasma not realizing that you guys would behave this way. I'll be choosing my words more carefully going forward.

Behave what way? Calling you on your BS?

As for "dark matter", that ball is in your court.

Dark matter is a fairly recent theory. Scientists will need more time in order to conclude anything.

As for the Electric Universe, check out this short documentary
<snipped movie to save space>

I'm not going to spend an hour watching some crackpot guess. Do you know what electromagnetic fields do to charged particles? My guess is "no", since you'd realize why the sun couldn't be sending out electrons to Earth. Not to mention heavier elements (which someone already mentioned) that the guess doesn't explain. Oh, and did I mention the fact that we've identified neutrinos coming from the sun, which falls in line with the nuclear fusion theory?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 28, 2014, 03:45:02 PM
acturbo, I'm still waiting for an answer to my question. Don't make me put it in big, bold letters.

Did you or did you not infer that we don't know what plasma is?

Actually, i should have left it at "dark matter", which was really my point, but included plasma not realizing that you guys would behave this way. I'll be choosing my words more carefully going forward. As for "dark matter", that ball is in your court.

Hang on for a sec...is your point simply that there are some things that we don't understand?

I'm not sure you'll find anyone on this forum that disagrees with that.  The point may be valid, but is about as revelatory as making the point that 'word' is a word.

Unfortunately, the line of argument you guys are dragging me down into is that if i can't scientifically prove reincarnation, then it must be "bunk". I suggest that just because we don't fully understand, or more specifically, can't "absolutely, positively" prove reincarnation, does not mean it doesn't exist. There's lots of room for discussion about this topic, but holding my comments to a rigid must-have-proof-only standard is not helping us discuss it. I simply pointed out there is lots we don't understand about the universe, including dark matter, which i think is relevant seeing as it shows that scientists don't have it all figured out.

I posted a good video to address scientific proof for reincarnation, but none of you have followed up on that. What i do see is, if you review this thread, childish comments including "1+1=2" comments. And i'm supposed to be the one that's "a joke"?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 28, 2014, 03:50:54 PM
Actually, i should have left it at "dark matter", which was really my point, but included plasma not realizing that you guys would behave this way. I'll be choosing my words more carefully going forward.

Behave what way? Calling you on your BS?

As for "dark matter", that ball is in your court.

Dark matter is a fairly recent theory. Scientists will need more time in order to conclude anything.

As for the Electric Universe, check out this short documentary
<snipped movie to save space>

I'm not going to spend an hour watching some crackpot guess. Do you know what electromagnetic fields do to charged particles? My guess is "no", since you'd realize why the sun couldn't be sending out electrons to Earth. Not to mention heavier elements (which someone already mentioned) that the guess doesn't explain. Oh, and did I mention the fact that we've identified neutrinos coming from the sun, which falls in line with the nuclear fusion theory?

I've heard enough now ... it sounds like you know better than NASA:
http://hesperia.gsfc.nasa.gov/sftheory/spaceweather.htm

Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: One Above All on January 28, 2014, 03:59:03 PM
I've heard enough now ... it sounds like you know better than NASA:
http://hesperia.gsfc.nasa.gov/sftheory/spaceweather.htm

I actually read your link. You don't appear to have done so.

Quote
The energetic particles produced at the Sun in flares seldom reach the Earth. When they do, the Earth's magnetic field prevents almost all of them from reaching the Earth's surface. The small number of very high energy particles that does reach the surface does not significantly increase the level of radiation that we experience every day.

Bold mine.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: screwtape on January 28, 2014, 04:03:45 PM
Did any of you take time to research Dr. Michael Newton's work before posting  to this thread?

No and I told you why.  The whole idea is preposterous and you've not given any reason as to why it should be considered in the first place.  You've said, "what about reincarnation?"  I've answered, "what about it?"  And you've just shrugged your shoulders.  So unless you have some better evidence - that is to say, data - we've got very little to talk about.

I offered an alternative afterlife with as much reason to believe it as reincarnation.  You've not said whether you buy into it or not.

How about Dr. Ian Stevenson? 

see above.

As for Dr. Oz, other than recognizing his name, i don't know anything about his work -- but I'll take your word for it that he's a charlatan and a fraud. I'm sure he's not the first and he won't be the last.

he's a hack unleashed on the world by Oprah.


As for #4, I'm not here to argue ... i suspect that you'll continue to believe what you want, and in your eyes, be convinced that you have successfully debunked whatever anyone posts that doesn't fit your views. That's fine. I posted to give people something to consider as to "why god (or God) doesn't heal amputees".

But you haven't done that.  You've said something that, so far, is not worth considering. 

Let's take your argument and follow it to its conclusion.  You said god does not heal amputees because amputation is really nothing, in the greater scheme of things.  I think that distills it and allows us to not get hung up on reincarnation.  Please correct me if that is inaccurate in some way.

So, if something as seemingly horrible as amputation is not worth worrying too much about, what is?  Theft?  Rape?  Murder?  Seems to me all those are irrelevant compared to multiple lifetimes or the eternity of heaven.  So, given that, we should be able to stop spending money on law enforcement and criminal justice.  We should also be able to disband our army, since if we are invaded by the Chinese and killed for food, we'll just be reincarnated as a Chinaman anyway.  And if you are wrong...well, shit.

I recall a story from Hitchens where he realized that even buddhism has its horrible elements.  He saw a buddhist family and the child had some horrible developmental condition.  He said something along the lines of "that poor child."  The mother replied, "do not feel bad for her.  She did something to deserve this in a previous life."

And that is where you end up.  Reincarnation is not just an unfounded idea.  It is an immoral one.

Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 28, 2014, 04:05:13 PM
I've heard enough now ... it sounds like you know better than NASA:
http://hesperia.gsfc.nasa.gov/sftheory/spaceweather.htm

I actually read your link. You don't appear to have done so.

Quote
The energetic particles produced at the Sun in flares seldom reach the Earth. When they do, the Earth's magnetic field prevents almost all of them from reaching the Earth's surface. The small number of very high energy particles that does reach the surface does not significantly increase the level of radiation that we experience every day.

Bold mine.

you said:
"My guess is "no", since you'd realize why the sun couldn't be sending out electrons to Earth"

You are wrong. The sun IS sending electrons to earth, it's just the earth's magnetic field prevents them from
actually hitting the surface of the earth.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: One Above All on January 28, 2014, 04:10:34 PM
you said:
"My guess is "no", since you'd realize why the sun couldn't be sending out electrons to Earth"

You are wrong. The sun IS sending electrons to earth, it's just the earth's magnetic field prevents them from
actually hitting the surface of the earth.

Good call on my wording. I chalk this up to the fact that English is not my native language. However, if you were to read the sentence right before that one, you'd see I mentioned an electromagnetic field. If I had wanted to say what my wording inferred, I wouldn't have mentioned the EM field.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: wheels5894 on January 28, 2014, 04:14:12 PM
acturbo

You say you would like to know more about Dark Matter. Well in the New Scientist Magazine, 4th july 2013 was published the following which illuminates quite a bit about dark matter.

Quote
THE skeleton of dark matter that undergirds the cosmic web of matter in the universe has been clearly detected for first time.

We know that matter in the cosmos forms a web, with galaxies and clusters linked by filaments across mostly empty space. Filaments are made of normal matter and dark matter - the unseen stuff that makes up about 85 per cent of the universe's mass. Recent observations have seen the normal matter in such filaments.

Now Jörg Dietrich at the University Observatory in Munich, Germany, and his team have detected the dark matter component in a filament in a supercluster about 2.7 billion light years from us, called Abell 222/223.

The massive filament's gravity focuses the light travelling towards Earth from more distant background galaxies. The team used this light to calculate the filament's mass and shape. X-rays from the hot gas of normal matter in the vicinity showed that this matter lined up with the filament but made up only about 10 per cent of its mass. The rest must be dark matter (Nature, DOI: 10.1038/nature11224). This shows that the filament is "part of a network of dark matter that connects galaxy clusters throughout the universe", says Dietrich.

As for the 'electric sun idea' did you get round to explaining how the heavier elements are formed is stars like the sun derive their power from electricity and not from nuclear fusion? I would be most interested to hear that. I know a retired solar scientist and if I see him I'll ask him about the idea but I think he might laugh.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 28, 2014, 04:28:33 PM
you said:
"My guess is "no", since you'd realize why the sun couldn't be sending out electrons to Earth"

You are wrong. The sun IS sending electrons to earth, it's just the earth's magnetic field prevents them from
actually hitting the surface of the earth.

Good call on my wording. I chalk this up to the fact that English is not my native language. However, if you were to read the sentence right before that one, you'd see I mentioned an electromagnetic field. If I had wanted to say what my wording inferred, I wouldn't have mentioned the EM field.

Thanks for that, i almost missed your other wrong comment:

"The energetic particles produced at the Sun in flares seldom reach the Earth."

Seldom, huh? Wrong again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_flare
"The frequency of occurrence of solar flares varies, from several per day when the Sun is particularly "active" to less than one every week when the Sun is "quiet", following the 11-year cycle (the solar cycle). Large flares are less frequent than smaller ones."

An honest thinking man would, by now, realize the common thread in all this is "electrical" and would not be so fast to dismiss scientists that have proposed that the sun is indeed producing electrical heat/energy. But in your mad dash to prove me wrong at all costs, you have made two factual blunders in the same post.

Thing is, i don't give 2 craps about discussing sun physics or whatever ... my point here is, instead of looking for ways to prove me wrong at all costs, maybe accept what i propose with a grain of salt, research it as you wish, then post some remotely thoughtful rebuttal that may actually enlighten me and others.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: jynnan tonnix on January 28, 2014, 04:30:11 PM
As it happens, I was just watching a bunch of videos on reincarnation a few weeks ago, including some by the guys you mention. It was one of those days that I was surfing around youtube, and had come across one of those stories of young kids recalling past life events, found it intriguing, and went on from there.

To be fair, although I stress that this is not something I put any particular stock in, most of the "research" at all worthy of the name doesn't focus on people who have done past life regression, or those who think they were Cleopatra or Marilyn Monroe. Most of them do tend to be of children who inexplicably start talking about being someone else, having a different family, etc, and most include accidental or violent deaths, which they claim to remember.

I realize that it's very easy for a thought to be suggested and implanted into the subconscious of a very young child, or for a parent to extrapolate or embellish what their son or daughter tells them. Also, some anecdotes will include what might be some really great coincidences...but, as I said, there's just something intriguing about a number of them. I have no idea, really, what kind of controls are used in this sort of "research", but just as I am interested in whether anyone ever manages to successfully take up James Randi on his wager and offer actual proof of things like out of body experiences, mediums or ghosts,  I'm interested to see whether they ever find someone who can conclusively prove that they have memories of an actual past life.

I'm skeptical of those things at present because I don't see any overwhelming evidence for them, but they are all very cool concepts, and it would be much more fun to find THEM proven true than it would be to have evidence of Biblegod handed to me on a plate.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 28, 2014, 04:32:00 PM
acturbo

You say you would like to know more about Dark Matter. Well in the New Scientist Magazine, 4th july 2013 was published the following which illuminates quite a bit about dark matter.

Quote
THE skeleton of dark matter that undergirds the cosmic web of matter in the universe has been clearly detected for first time.

We know that matter in the cosmos forms a web, with galaxies and clusters linked by filaments across mostly empty space. Filaments are made of normal matter and dark matter - the unseen stuff that makes up about 85 per cent of the universe's mass. Recent observations have seen the normal matter in such filaments.

Now Jörg Dietrich at the University Observatory in Munich, Germany, and his team have detected the dark matter component in a filament in a supercluster about 2.7 billion light years from us, called Abell 222/223.

The massive filament's gravity focuses the light travelling towards Earth from more distant background galaxies. The team used this light to calculate the filament's mass and shape. X-rays from the hot gas of normal matter in the vicinity showed that this matter lined up with the filament but made up only about 10 per cent of its mass. The rest must be dark matter (Nature, DOI: 10.1038/nature11224). This shows that the filament is "part of a network of dark matter that connects galaxy clusters throughout the universe", says Dietrich.

As for the 'electric sun idea' did you get round to explaining how the heavier elements are formed is stars like the sun derive their power from electricity and not from nuclear fusion? I would be most interested to hear that. I know a retired solar scientist and if I see him I'll ask him about the idea but I think he might laugh.

Well then you should direct your question to your friend and ask him to review the video i posted. Let him think on it, then on his behalf, post back his expert view on things. I think that would be more meaningful than anything any one of us could say about this topic.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: One Above All on January 28, 2014, 04:33:23 PM
Thanks for that, i almost missed your other wrong comment:

"The energetic particles produced at the Sun in flares seldom reach the Earth."

Seldom, huh? Wrong again.
<snip>

Hey, that's from your link. Not my words, but yours (implicitly).
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 28, 2014, 04:35:19 PM
Thanks for that, i almost missed your other wrong comment:

"The energetic particles produced at the Sun in flares seldom reach the Earth."

Seldom, huh? Wrong again.
<snip>

Hey, that's from your link. Not my words, but yours (implicitly).

Nice try, no.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: One Above All on January 28, 2014, 04:36:50 PM
Nice try, no.

Read the link if you don't believe me. Don't make me get an admin to delete the +1 I gave you.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 28, 2014, 04:38:28 PM
Nice try, no.

Read the link if you don't believe me. Don't make me get an admin to delete the +1 I gave you.

My point is, I never said this:
"The energetic particles produced at the Sun in flares seldom reach the Earth"

It seemed you were suggesting i did, that's all. I get it now, it was in the original article.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: One Above All on January 28, 2014, 04:41:26 PM
My point is, I never said this:
"The energetic particles produced at the Sun in flares seldom reach the Earth"

It seemed you were suggesting i did, that's all.

You posted a link intended on proving me wrong. I quoted it to show you how it actually supported my side. You then ignored that link and tried pushing a new one on to me. This time I didn't (and probably won't) bother to read it, since apparently you don't read them yourself.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 28, 2014, 04:43:36 PM
My point is, I never said this:
"The energetic particles produced at the Sun in flares seldom reach the Earth"

It seemed you were suggesting i did, that's all.

You posted a link intended on proving me wrong. I quoted it to show you how it actually supported my side. You then ignored that link and tried pushing a new one on to me. This time I didn't (and probably won't) bother to read it, since apparently you don't read them yourself.

Ah yes, I got it now ... sorry, it's hard to use links efficiently since you may want to quote some of hat they say, but not agree with other things. That's what happened.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Azdgari on January 28, 2014, 05:05:47 PM
... But in your mad dash to prove me wrong at all costs ...

Your posts would be easier to take seriously if you made fewer claims about what others are thinking.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: jdawg70 on January 28, 2014, 05:35:47 PM
Unfortunately, the line of argument you guys are dragging me down into is that if i can't scientifically prove reincarnation, then it must be "bunk". I suggest that just because we don't fully understand, or more specifically, can't "absolutely, positively" prove reincarnation, does not mean it doesn't exist. There's lots of room for discussion about this topic, but holding my comments to a rigid must-have-proof-only standard is not helping us discuss it.
What are the restrictions you have on discussing this topic?  Are there any at all?

Is there any standard that we should your comments to?  That you should hold my comments to?

Quote
I simply pointed out there is lots we don't understand about the universe, including dark matter, which i think is relevant seeing as it shows that scientists don't have it all figured out.
Again...I'm rather certain that you'll find zero people here that would claim that scientists do have it all figured out.  Really, I'm rather certain that everyone on this forum will agree with the statement "we do not know everything" or "we do not have everything figured out."

So no...it's not relevant.

Seriously - is there anyone participating in this thread that disagrees with the statement "the scientific community does not know everything?"
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 28, 2014, 05:42:19 PM
... But in your mad dash to prove me wrong at all costs ...

Your posts would be easier to take seriously if you made fewer claims about what others are thinking.

hmm, maybe your high-horse was in the stable while others were trying to teach me about "1+1=2".
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: lotanddaughters on January 28, 2014, 06:08:07 PM
... But in your mad dash to prove me wrong at all costs ...

Your posts would be easier to take seriously if you made fewer claims about what others are thinking.

hmm, maybe your high-horse was in the stable while others were trying to teach me about "1+1=2".


Yeah . . . maybe.


joining this thread late (my first post) ...

Welcome to our forum.


However, consider for a moment that this life is just one of many. That is, reincarnation.

That's a pretty flipping big IF, don't you think?  I'd say you need to connect the dots, because you've not gotten from here to there yet.

i don't think my IF is any bigger than ignoring the various evidence suggesting that reincarnation is real. Short of having a firsthand experience and being able to remember it, i suspect that my comments may always fall short for anyone not interested in exploring the concept. And this is fine. I can only provide my perspective on this topic.
Bold is mine.

Keep this in mind:

Every single field of science is crowded with capable researchers. From this time forward, there will never be a collection of new solid evidence that gets ignored by all of the top scientists.

Never.

Actual evidence for reincarnation? Scientists jump for joy and do cartwheels after making a discovery of not even a sliver of the importance of such a discovery.

Please. Think. About. This. Before. Continuing.

Scientists tend to be experts in the material world.

The greatest scientists of our modern world tend to be experts in "If it's a good argument, I will recognize that it's a good argument." This renders your definition of "non-material" to "Nonsense that every great scientist recognizes as nonsense".

A good logical proposal is a good logical proposal.


Great scientist: "1 + 1 = 2".

You: "I don't like '1 + 1 = 2'. Since great scientists are calculating their conclusions within the only world we know, I think I will propose a different world where 'anything goes' and call their 'real world' 'The Material World'."





You're a joke.


Once again, welcome to the forum.  ;)


Or . . . maybe reincarnation that gradually leads to more personal education and satisfaction is the most viable explanation of our circumstance, especially since overwhelming evidence points directly to this particular brand of reincarnation and all of its baggage.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: magicmiles on January 28, 2014, 06:18:06 PM
^^ Messiest and most confusing post of the year contender.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Azdgari on January 28, 2014, 06:36:39 PM
^^ The 7-tier quote nest is a bit much.

... But in your mad dash to prove me wrong at all costs ...

Your posts would be easier to take seriously if you made fewer claims about what others are thinking.

hmm, maybe your high-horse was in the stable while others were trying to teach me about "1+1=2".

That has no bearing on what I said.  And they weren't actually trying to teach you about "1+1=2".
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 28, 2014, 07:03:53 PM
^^ The 7-tier quote nest is a bit much.

... But in your mad dash to prove me wrong at all costs ...

Your posts would be easier to take seriously if you made fewer claims about what others are thinking.

hmm, maybe your high-horse was in the stable while others were trying to teach me about "1+1=2".

That has no bearing on what I said.  And they weren't actually trying to teach you about "1+1=2".

Fair enough, now that that's been cleared up, hopefully we can get back to a more interesting line of discussion.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Azdgari on January 28, 2014, 07:06:36 PM
Hard to manage, when anyone you disagree with is automatically "in a mad dash to prove you wrong at all costs".
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Anfauglir on January 29, 2014, 03:05:24 AM
Unfortunately, the line of argument you guys are dragging me down into is that if i can't scientifically prove reincarnation, then it must be "bunk". I suggest that just because we don't fully understand, or more specifically, can't "absolutely, positively" prove reincarnation, does not mean it doesn't exist. There's lots of room for discussion about this topic, but holding my comments to a rigid must-have-proof-only standard is not helping us discuss it.

Good point.

Thing is reincarnation is NOT actually bunk.  What is ACTUALLY the case is that there are, in fact, just twelve real consciousnesses in existence.  These consciousnesses bounce back and forth through time and inhabit (literally) billions of bodies, in some cases hundreds of millions at a time.  Chances are high that you and I are different aspects of the same consciousness, though of course we won't know it in here.  In the ethereal world above, the twelve consciousnesses sit in ring, simultaneously experiencing all that is happening, and knowing nothing and everything about all the existences they have had/are yet to have (time is not a valid construct in the ethereal).

Shall we discuss this?  I believe it fits all the facts currently (and erroneously) placed under the "reincarnation" umbrella that foolishly insists on billions of souls repeating in a blind and temporally linear fashion.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: wheels5894 on January 29, 2014, 04:36:31 AM
Unfortunately, the line of argument you guys are dragging me down into is that if i can't scientifically prove reincarnation, then it must be "bunk". I suggest that just because we don't fully understand, or more specifically, can't "absolutely, positively" prove reincarnation, does not mean it doesn't exist. There's lots of room for discussion about this topic, but holding my comments to a rigid must-have-proof-only standard is not helping us discuss it.

Certainly this is something that might happen in the sense that is cannot be proven to be false. On the other hand, there is a degree of difficulty in explaining how it might work to the extent that we might say it is so unlikely as not to warrant much time.

The biggest difficulty about reincarnation is the question of the mind of the person. Now if we have no memory of past lives but we are supposed to be living out many lives to learn, then, presumably, there is going to have to be a memory bank storing our memories from each of our lives. Now in life, our memories are stored in a pattern of neurons with control centres recovering the memories on demand. However they are no saved like video clips and various bits of  memory have to be assembled by the brain and it has a tendency to fill in bits when it 'plays back'  memory. It is for this reason that memory in quite unreliable when it comes to remembering events that have to be recounted in court. Anyway, all this stuff would have to be transferred at death to some storage medium for later use.

So, would you care to suggest how this might happen because I think this is the biggest hurdle to claiming that reincarnation is real.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on January 29, 2014, 08:14:34 AM

Unfortunately, the line of argument you guys are dragging me down into is that if i can't scientifically prove reincarnation, then it must be "bunk". I suggest that just because we don't fully understand, or more specifically, can't "absolutely, positively" prove reincarnation, does not mean it doesn't exist. There's lots of room for discussion about this topic, but holding my comments to a rigid must-have-proof-only standard is not helping us discuss it. I simply pointed out there is lots we don't understand about the universe, including dark matter, which i think is relevant seeing as it shows that scientists don't have it all figured out.


"Could be" is not a good argument for "is." I am saying, based on evidence, my belief is that reincarnation is extremely extremely likely to be bunk. Not "must be" but "is." If evidence, unambiguous evidence, were to present itself that reincarnation wasn't just another in  the vast cloud of baseless supernatural claims, I would change my mind.

Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 29, 2014, 11:31:26 AM
Unfortunately, the line of argument you guys are dragging me down into is that if i can't scientifically prove reincarnation, then it must be "bunk". I suggest that just because we don't fully understand, or more specifically, can't "absolutely, positively" prove reincarnation, does not mean it doesn't exist. There's lots of room for discussion about this topic, but holding my comments to a rigid must-have-proof-only standard is not helping us discuss it.

Good point.

Thing is reincarnation is NOT actually bunk.  What is ACTUALLY the case is that there are, in fact, just twelve real consciousnesses in existence.  These consciousnesses bounce back and forth through time and inhabit (literally) billions of bodies, in some cases hundreds of millions at a time.  Chances are high that you and I are different aspects of the same consciousness, though of course we won't know it in here.  In the ethereal world above, the twelve consciousnesses sit in ring, simultaneously experiencing all that is happening, and knowing nothing and everything about all the existences they have had/are yet to have (time is not a valid construct in the ethereal).

Shall we discuss this?  I believe it fits all the facts currently (and erroneously) placed under the "reincarnation" umbrella that foolishly insists on billions of souls repeating in a blind and temporally linear fashion.

It's the first i've heard about twelve consciousnesses -- i'll look into this. The only time i've heard about something similar is in Edgar Cayce's work where he explains cosmology. I've watched some decent Cayce youtube videos of this but i don't know enough to comment.

My take is that there is only 1 consciousness, where everything comes from. As it relates to us as individuals, my understanding is that this single consciousness "separates a tiny piece from itself" (crude explanation, but that's the gist), which we could refer to as an individual "soul" to manifest into countless bodies across the universe to experience life over many billions of years. You and i are that piece, and we are basically taking a ride in the human body we currently have. We go through a lifetime experience, make mistakes, learn, grow or possibly regress. We repeat this over millions/billions of years with the goal of gaining wisdom and perfecting ourselves and eventually rejoin that single consciousness to contribute our experiences to its growth.

I post this loose summary to provide a general idea of what i think is going on. As for evidence, well that's part of the challenge -- one way or the other. I'm not here to argue this topic from a scientific perspective because i'm not a scientist, i can only offer what i've discovered about this topic and share what i've found. I suppose i prefer a philosophical approach to this topic.

If it's worth anything, i grew up Roman Catholic but my family and i were not church goers, other than once a year for Christmas. When i was still young, i determined that church was just a business and that it was all about money and control. The bible seemed like a giant fairytale to me. I became agnostic, even considered myself atheist for a while but that never felt quite right either, so i settled back into agnosticism ("not knowing what happens") for ~20 years. In my late 30's i was introduced to the concept of reincarnation, which i found interesting, and started researching it as a hobby for the next number of  years. Along the way, i discovered that the church has indeed deliberately hidden and distorted important information about reincarnation, which has helped fuel my interest to keep researching this topic.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: wheels5894 on January 29, 2014, 11:41:51 AM
OK, acturbo, let's go with what you say or a moment. I have a few things to ask.

1. The only consciousness we know of is that formed by brains that are working in human beings. On the assumption that this Consciousness you mention in neither a human body nor indeed material, how can you know it as a Consciousness or indeed know it exists at all?

2. How do we know that 'bits break off' to form humans? Whereas it sounds fine I am more interested in the way you claim to know this is the case.

3. How can you know that people are reincarnated? Although, again, it sounds fine, but I have already posed the question of memory and how it might work between lives and I just don't see how it might work.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: nogodsforme on January 29, 2014, 11:46:14 AM
Breath being held. &)
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: wheels5894 on January 29, 2014, 11:47:48 AM
Breath being held. &)

Don't, don't - you'll die!
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Nam on January 29, 2014, 12:00:59 PM
Breath being held. &)

Don't, don't - you'll die!

Nah...she'll get dizzy first, and then breathe again.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: screwtape on January 29, 2014, 12:56:50 PM
I suppose i prefer a philosophical approach to this topic.

I don't think you mean this.  I think you misunderstand what a philosophical approach is.  Philosophy is rigorous.  It makes arguments with facts and logic.  It is highly disciplined. 

What you are talking about is an informal discussion, where any party gets to say whatever they want and the other party is expected to furrow their brows, nod and say, "wow, man, that is deep", without really challenging it.  This is the kind of thing teenagers do as they pass around a water bong.  That is not to speak of it in derogatory terms.  That is a fine thing to do, if you like that sort of thing, as I once did (without the bong). 

Most of us here have outgrown that, though.  As such, the expectations on this forum are more...stringent.  We have a higher standard than stoned teens.  This is why you are having such a difficult time here.  It is not becuase we are a bunch of assholes.  Well, not mainly because of that, anyway. 

It is because you do not yet understand the expectations here.  We have a forum called The Shelter.  It is more for the kind of discussion I perceive you want.  I will give you access.

I hope this helps.

The bible seemed like a giant fairytale to me.

This is good.  Why does reincarnation not seem like a giant faerietale as well?

Much of what you describe sounds exactly like hinduism.  Do you consider yourself to be a hindu?

Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 29, 2014, 06:23:48 PM
OK, acturbo, let's go with what you say or a moment. I have a few things to ask.

1. The only consciousness we know of is that formed by brains that are working in human beings. On the assumption that this Consciousness you mention in neither a human body nor indeed material, how can you know it as a Consciousness or indeed know it exists at all?

2. How do we know that 'bits break off' to form humans? Whereas it sounds fine I am more interested in the way you claim to know this is the case.

3. How can you know that people are reincarnated? Although, again, it sounds fine, but I have already posed the question of memory and how it might work between lives and I just don't see how it might work.

great questions ...

1. IMO, the brain does not create consciousness because i don't think it probable that a brain can create, or give birth to, something smarter than itself.
I'm not saying it's not possible, i just personally find it more logical to accept that our mind or consciousness comes from a much more sophisticated "thing" -- from outside our bodies. Also, i consider the countless people that are born with particular gifts, for example, musicions (without ever having learned to read a note of muic), artists, mathematicians that understand numbers and formulas without prior instruction. etc. to be a sign that maybe these people have done this before. When taken together, it leads me to accept that it comes from outside our body vs. from our body -- again, my opinion.

2. Just a minor correction, i suggest that the "bits break off" to join the body, not physically form the body. That is, we have a physical body (how it came to be is another discussion) and at some point during the early term of the pregnancy, when the embryo is physically capable of some set of basic functions, the soul/consciousness arrives. I realize that this may sound nuts, which is fine, but i offer this explanation based on various sources that all point to the same general process. At birth, the physical body will have a soul/consciousness.  The soul/consciousness itself could be a young soul, or old soul or somewhere in between.

3. How do we know people are reincarnated ... i can't answer that with a single "here is how we know" answer, but i can try to share some indicators that helped me. NDE cases provide an interesting insight to what they experienced at their death. If you accept some of the more powerful cases, then this gets us half way there, that is, NDE cases help show that we (soul/consciousness/mind ... whatever) seems to have vivid experiences after being clinically dead. NDE doesn't explain the process of coming back though. For that, i looked into Past Life Regression cases. I'm sure you guys have seem a few youtube videos about kids claiming former memories etc. That's fine -- you can take it or leave it. However, some doctors have delved into this topic through hypnosis. Dr. Michael Newton performed some 6,000 past life regressions and documented his findings. That body of work, for me personally, was enough to make me take reincarnation seriously.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 29, 2014, 06:47:27 PM
I suppose i prefer a philosophical approach to this topic.

I don't think you mean this.  I think you misunderstand what a philosophical approach is.  Philosophy is rigorous.  It makes arguments with facts and logic.  It is highly disciplined. 

What you are talking about is an informal discussion, where any party gets to say whatever they want and the other party is expected to furrow their brows, nod and say, "wow, man, that is deep", without really challenging it.  This is the kind of thing teenagers do as they pass around a water bong.  That is not to speak of it in derogatory terms.  That is a fine thing to do, if you like that sort of thing, as I once did (without the bong). 

Most of us here have outgrown that, though.  As such, the expectations on this forum are more...stringent.  We have a higher standard than stoned teens.  This is why you are having such a difficult time here.  It is not becuase we are a bunch of assholes.  Well, not mainly because of that, anyway. 

It is because you do not yet understand the expectations here.  We have a forum called The Shelter.  It is more for the kind of discussion I perceive you want.  I will give you access.

I hope this helps.

The bible seemed like a giant fairytale to me.

This is good.  Why does reincarnation not seem like a giant faerietale as well?

Much of what you describe sounds exactly like hinduism.  Do you consider yourself to be a hindu?

fair enough ... we'll call it "informal discussion" .

Reincarnation was not easy for me to digest, it sounded bizarre when i had my first real discussion about it --- more like, i was doing the listening and asking all the questions. It took lots of googling. The various past life regression research from modern medical doctors helped eliminate the "this is nuts" factor, so that helped me focus on "how probable is this?".

I think you're right, Hinduism is probably the closest religion that matches my beliefs about reincarnation, but i don't know much about Hinduism's religious details beyond that. I also think Buddhism's take on reincarnation matches my beliefs too, but again, i don't know much about the details of Buddhism beyond that. I don't subscribe to any religion ... i pick and choose facts from anywhere, if they resonate with me. 

And yes, add me to the Shelter if it makes sense, thanks.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: nogodsforme on January 29, 2014, 07:29:10 PM
The only part of reincarnation that makes any sense to me is that it accounts for the fact that life is so very unfair.

A baby girl is born to impoverished parents in Calcutta, learns to beg for food by age two, is abandoned and dies of intestinal parasites at age three. Another baby is born to middle class parents in a Paris suburb, has good health care, never misses a meal, goes to college, gets married, has a great life and lives to be a 95 year old happy grandma.

What accounts for that huge disparity in quality of life? What is the point of so many people living lives of misery on the one hand and others living in luxury and plenty?

With no other apparent reason behind accident of birth, reincarnation fits the bill. You suffer or prosper in this life to balance out what happened in a previous life. Slam that case closed.

One problem, a teeny weeny problem. There is not a shred of real evidence that any of this happens:

a)people have a separate soul or consciousness outside the brain; b) this soul can "live" on somewhere after the person dies; c)this [dead person's] soul can go into other people; d) these souls can "remember" or "learn" independent of the brain; e) souls "live" somewhere without a human body; etc. etc.

Just saying something is the case does not make it true. Even if it makes sense in some ways, and even if we wish it was true, no controlled study has shown any of this to be true. Articles on the internet can produce some notoriously bad ideas about science. Anyone can write up a bunch of stuff about some guy who thinks people can remember past lives.

But has it been peer reviewed? Has it been replicated by different researchers? Has any soul been detected after death by any instrument? Everything that has passed scientific muster shows that the brain dies and that is it. No soul survives the end of brain function.

You have to demonstrate that something really happens if people are supposed to believe it. Pics (scientific evidence) or it didn't happen. Show us a "soul" existing outside of a human body. Otherwise, it is only one more nutty idea that people have come up with.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 29, 2014, 11:30:56 PM
The only part of reincarnation that makes any sense to me is that it accounts for the fact that life is so very unfair.

A baby girl is born to impoverished parents in Calcutta, learns to beg for food by age two, is abandoned and dies of intestinal parasites at age three. Another baby is born to middle class parents in a Paris suburb, has good health care, never misses a meal, goes to college, gets married, has a great life and lives to be a 95 year old happy grandma.

What accounts for that huge disparity in quality of life? What is the point of so many people living lives of misery on the one hand and others living in luxury and plenty?

With no other apparent reason behind accident of birth, reincarnation fits the bill. You suffer or prosper in this life to balance out what happened in a previous life. Slam that case closed.

One problem, a teeny weeny problem. There is not a shred of real evidence that any of this happens:

a)people have a separate soul or consciousness outside the brain; b) this soul can "live" on somewhere after the person dies; c)this [dead person's] soul can go into other people; d) these souls can "remember" or "learn" independent of the brain; e) souls "live" somewhere without a human body; etc. etc.

Just saying something is the case does not make it true. Even if it makes sense in some ways, and even if we wish it was true, no controlled study has shown any of this to be true. Articles on the internet can produce some notoriously bad ideas about science. Anyone can write up a bunch of stuff about some guy who thinks people can remember past lives.

But has it been peer reviewed? Has it been replicated by different researchers? Has any soul been detected after death by any instrument? Everything that has passed scientific muster shows that the brain dies and that is it. No soul survives the end of brain function.

You have to demonstrate that something really happens if people are supposed to believe it. Pics (scientific evidence) or it didn't happen. Show us a "soul" existing outside of a human body. Otherwise, it is only one more nutty idea that people have come up with.

I agree with the first part of your post -- it certainly helps explain disparities, misfortunes, etc. and it helps give a real purpose to life.

However, as for claiming there is "not a shred of real evidence", well, that's not accurate at all. There is in fact evidence, but that evidence requires some interpretation and requires a willingness to believe witness testimony, specifically in the case of Past Life Regression analysis and NDE interviews. If you are unwilling to accept that, then i suspect that you'll always find this topic inadequate.

If i can turn the table around for a moment, ask yourself if you can provide the same level of evidence for your belief system as you're demanding from this one. I personally don't need this, i'm just pushing you to think to think about it.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 29, 2014, 11:33:43 PM
One issue, mate.

Witness testimony means SQUAT.

If you say witness testimony is allowed for non-natural things, you end up with every single supernatural belief being true, which is obviously not the case.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 29, 2014, 11:44:46 PM
One issue, mate.

Witness testimony means SQUAT.

If you say witness testimony is allowed for non-natural things, you end up with every single supernatural belief being true, which is obviously not the case.

And you realize that laws and courts around the world accept witness testimony as serious evidence. In fact, people have have been sentenced and exonerated because of eye witness testimony. I.e. it's proof, it's evidence.  If you're looking for a mathematical equation instead, well i don't have it. And quite frankly, based on your comments, it seems to me that you should continue on with your current belief system. I suspect exchanging posts with me will cause nothing but frustration for both of us, mate.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on January 29, 2014, 11:48:26 PM
One issue, mate.

Witness testimony means SQUAT.

If you say witness testimony is allowed for non-natural things, you end up with every single supernatural belief being true, which is obviously not the case.

And you realize that laws and courts around the world accept witness testimony as serious evidence. In fact, people have have been sentenced and exonerated because of eye witness testimony. I.e. it's proof, it's evidence.  If you're looking for a mathematical equation instead, well i don't have it. And quite frankly, based on your comments, it seems to me that you should continue on with your current belief system. I suspect exchanging posts with me will cause nothing but frustration for both of us.


However physical evidence trumps witness testimony in most modern courts.

So, you not accept that people lie, people hallucinate, and people exaggerate?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 30, 2014, 12:12:34 AM
One issue, mate.

Witness testimony means SQUAT.

If you say witness testimony is allowed for non-natural things, you end up with every single supernatural belief being true, which is obviously not the case.

And you realize that laws and courts around the world accept witness testimony as serious evidence. In fact, people have have been sentenced and exonerated because of eye witness testimony. I.e. it's proof, it's evidence.  If you're looking for a mathematical equation instead, well i don't have it. And quite frankly, based on your comments, it seems to me that you should continue on with your current belief system. I suspect exchanging posts with me will cause nothing but frustration for both of us.


However physical evidence trumps witness testimony in most modern courts.

So, you not accept that people lie, people hallucinate, and people exaggerate?

Absolutely, the evidence can be noisy and messy, but solid evidence is available if you actually look for it. And yes, you will find fault easily in some of what's online. I've already mentioned a few times about some solid points of reference worth checking out. If someone said "hey, this video debunks xyz about reincarnation", guess what, i'll check it out. You've done nothing to merit me handing over answers. Have you spent time researching reincarnation before claiming this or that about it?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Nam on January 30, 2014, 01:50:33 AM
acturbo,

There is no actual evidence of reincarnation existing. All one has is other peoples opinions. Opinions do not make reality in the sense of evidence of it existing.

You believe it, you want to believe it, there are others out there just like you who believe it but just because people believe it doesn't mean magically it exists.

There is no way to prove it. You can providecall the links in the world and they will all amount to opinions, that's it.

We are people who need evidence--where is the evidence that doesn't amount to opinion or just outright fiction and just called evidence?

-Nam
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Anfauglir on January 30, 2014, 04:23:36 AM
Absolutely, the evidence can be noisy and messy, but solid evidence is available if you actually look for it.

Tell you what then - instead of giving links, why not explain briefly and in your own words, what the most solid piece of evidence is?  We can then examine whether the evidence was, firstly, obtained in double-blind, controlled experiments.  We can look at whether the witness testimonies were prompted by the interviewer.  We can look at the possibility and likelihood of the witnesses having prior knowledge of the alleged past lives before they were interviewed.  We can examine how many of the claims the witnesses made were able to be substantiated, how many were shown to be incorrect, and how many could not be verified one way or another.

Give us your BEST piece of evidence for reincarnation, since "solid evidence is available", and we can examine it.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: wheels5894 on January 30, 2014, 05:59:39 AM
great questions ...

1. IMO, the brain does not create consciousness because i don't think it probable that a brain can create, or give birth to, something smarter than itself.
I'm not saying it's not possible, i just personally find it more logical to accept that our mind or consciousness comes from a much more sophisticated "thing" -- from outside our bodies. Also, i consider the countless people that are born with particular gifts, for example, musicians (without ever having learned to read a note of music), artists, mathematicians that understand numbers and formulas without prior instruction. etc. to be a sign that maybe these people have done this before. When taken together, it leads me to accept that it comes from outside our body vs. from our body -- again, my opinion.

Whilst I see your point, you are rather making the assumption that because you can't see how it can happen then it has to be something else. Yet by now most people will be familiar with computers and artificial intelligence and we know that bits of silicon and wires can get on and do very complex things. The brain is a for more complex object that any computer (possibly the most complex object in the universe) so it is entirely possible for the sense of consciousness to be n emergent property of the brain.

We even have some experimental proof - for example by examining people with various degrees of brain damage due to strokes or accident. We can see where the damage is and predict what won't work - memory for example in the case of the hypothalamus. Now if consciousness was separate from the brain, why would brain damage cause exactly the damage we predict in every patient with this damage? If their memories were being stored on this 'soul' then brain damage could not affect them.

Quote
2. Just a minor correction, i suggest that the "bits break off" to join the body, not physically form the body. That is, we have a physical body (how it came to be is another discussion) and at some point during the early term of the pregnancy, when the embryo is physically capable of some set of basic functions, the soul/consciousness arrives. I realize that this may sound nuts, which is fine, but i offer this explanation based on various sources that all point to the same general process. At birth, the physical body will have a soul/consciousness.  The soul/consciousness itself could be a young soul, or old soul or somewhere in between.

Interesting but I suppose this is speculation on your part. Catholics, for example, think the 'soul' enters the body at conception. I suppose this is something that is belief only as we cannot ever measure this. Except someone tried. Duncan MacDougall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_(doctor)) tried but his results have not ever been repolicated since 1901.

Quote
3. How do we know people are reincarnated ... i can't answer that with a single "here is how we know" answer, but i can try to share some indicators that helped me. NDE cases provide an interesting insight to what they experienced at their death. If you accept some of the more powerful cases, then this gets us half way there, that is, NDE cases help show that we (soul/consciousness/mind ... whatever) seems to have vivid experiences after being clinically dead. NDE doesn't explain the process of coming back though. For that, i looked into Past Life Regression cases. I'm sure you guys have seem a few YouTube videos about kids claiming former memories etc. That's fine -- you can take it or leave it. However, some doctors have delved into this topic through hypnosis. Dr. Michael Newton performed some 6,000 past life regressions and documented his findings. That body of work, for me personally, was enough to make me take reincarnation seriously.

I'm not so sure about the NDEs. One thing we know about NDEs is that they are not death. What people experience during an NDE is the rushing of chemicals around the brain which is trying to manage without oxygen. However, even if one concedes that these NDEs are a foretaste of death, there is no obvious way to use that to show that there is a reincarnation as they only appear to show some sort of life after death - often in a  garden.

As for the past Life regression (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_life_regression), well on the face of it it sounds quite convincing but looking a the Wikipedia article and links it doesn't seem to easy to tie the things people remember to the period they talk about nor is it possible to rule out the individual knowing about an earlier period before they are regressed. one would hope that there would, by now, be quite a lot of people who memories have been validated by historical records but I haven't seen anything that would show that. Until I do, I don't think this is very convincing.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Ataraxia on January 30, 2014, 06:04:27 AM
NDE cases provide an interesting insight to what they experienced at their death.

No they don't. Please go and look up what the N stands for in NDE.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on January 30, 2014, 08:10:12 AM

So, you not accept that people lie, people hallucinate, and people exaggerate?

Absolutely, the evidence can be noisy and messy, but solid evidence is available if you actually look for it. And yes, you will find fault easily in some of what's online. I've already mentioned a few times about some solid points of reference worth checking out. If someone said "hey, this video debunks xyz about reincarnation", guess what, i'll check it out. You've done nothing to merit me handing over answers. Have you spent time researching reincarnation before claiming this or that about it?

Do you not accept that brain damage and chemistry can radically alter a person's behavior?

and they bolded part: Why do I need "merit" in order for you to actually support your claim?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 30, 2014, 08:11:02 AM
acturbo,

There is no actual evidence of reincarnation existing. All one has is other peoples opinions. Opinions do not make reality in the sense of evidence of it existing.

You believe it, you want to believe it, there are others out there just like you who believe it but just because people believe it doesn't mean magically it exists.

There is no way to prove it. You can providecall the links in the world and they will all amount to opinions, that's it.

We are people who need evidence--where is the evidence that doesn't amount to opinion or just outright fiction and just called evidence?

-Nam

I think a  more reasonable approach from the other side of the fence is to say there isn't enough hard evidence to inconclusively prove it, which would be a fair statement. But the last few posts are claiming "absolutely no evidence" or "total bunk", which i think is incorrect. For me, i see enough drops of evidence to be comfortable accepting it. Keep in mind .... i went looking for the drops myself, nobody pushed me, and i wasn't trying to prove or disprove what i would find, and i like "real" evidence too. Perhaps that makes it easier to give value to the drops found, i don't know.

If you guys remember the show Columbo, he was a seemingly absent minded detective that while investigating a case would discover the most insignificant clues and eventually tie these tiny clues together to explain what happened at the end. Discussing reincarnation is a lot like this show, except we're missing Columbo and we're missing the last couple of scenes that would tie all the clues together.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on January 30, 2014, 08:12:28 AM
Absolutely, the evidence can be noisy and messy, but solid evidence is available if you actually look for it.

.

Give us your BEST piece of evidence for reincarnation, since "solid evidence is available", and we can examine it.

Seconded
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Ataraxia on January 30, 2014, 08:19:09 AM
If you guys remember the show Columbo, he was a seemingly absent minded detective that while investigating a case would discover the most insignificant clues and eventually tie these tiny clues together to explain what happened at the end. Discussing reincarnation is a lot like this show, except we're missing Columbo and we're missing the last couple of scenes that would tie all the clues together.

....but at least you've already got the fictional aspect in common.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: jynnan tonnix on January 30, 2014, 08:24:31 AM
Agreed on many of the points made. Even with a few on the "reincarnation" side.

First, although there IS quite a lot of "research" out there, the overwhelming bulk of it seems to be pretty dubious. Past life regression in particular, unless one can come up with enough, and specific enough details which the person in question would have no conceivable way of knowing smacks very much of fantasy. Just as the uncovering of supposedly repressed abuse, etc, has been shown time and time again to result in false memories, it's entirely possible for someone to create a very believable personality & backstory from details buried in their subconscious. Sometimes, there might even be some pretty convincing details in there.

On the other hand, there have been a couple of cases in which the number of details, including addresses, names of family members, circumstances of death, etc, have been very specifically remembered, and have checked out. Never 100%, which negates a lot of it right there because when a few details are "off", the rest are so much more easily chalked up to coincidence or knowledge gleaned somehow, at some point, then lost in the subconscious, but enough, in some cases, to make you go "hmmmm".

In the cases of children with these memories, it can be even more compelling, and I'd really love for someone to figure out a way to debunk them all convincingly, because I feel a bit foolish in finding them so fascinating. But when a two or three year old can come up with names, places and the way they "died" in details far beyond what they should have even been aware of, and when they can be taken to far-flung areas, even in other countries, that their families have no ties to and lead the way to a house in which a person with the name they had been talking about since they were able to speak can be shown to have lived, and when that person turns out to have died in a way consistent with what the child is "remembering", then it's really hard not to get pulled into it and to maintain all one's critical thinking skills.  I know that it's entirely possible, in probably quite a few cases, that the parents themselves have simply embellished and reinforced the narrative in their child's mind, and that they may be (honestly, even-though I'm sure there are some out there doing it for the attention or future book value) greatly exaggerating the way the child led them to the exact spot where he lived or died. Many, many possibilities, but a number of them look so genuine that I just come away with a sense that there might be more to it than that.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 30, 2014, 08:30:34 AM

So, you not accept that people lie, people hallucinate, and people exaggerate?

Absolutely, the evidence can be noisy and messy, but solid evidence is available if you actually look for it. And yes, you will find fault easily in some of what's online. I've already mentioned a few times about some solid points of reference worth checking out. If someone said "hey, this video debunks xyz about reincarnation", guess what, i'll check it out. You've done nothing to merit me handing over answers. Have you spent time researching reincarnation before claiming this or that about it?

Do you not accept that brain damage and chemistry can radically alter a person's behavior?

and they bolded part: Why do I need "merit" in order for you to actually support your claim?

I do, and i also accept it to be inexplicable that people suffering from brain damage in NDE cases around the world report similar bizarre experiences. Brain damage can include a countless number of things, and i doubt all these cases experienced the exact same causation for their brain damage. What they did have in common was that they were clinically dead for a period of time. That's what they had in common, not the cause of the brain damage, or the chemistry. I can't make wine from beer and I can't make wine from vodka. Yet, in both cases how is that if i handed you a beer and your friend a vodka and you both end up with red tongues and wine breath. That would be very bizarre and inexplicable result worth investigating. Telling me there was alcohol in all these drinks may be a start, but it doesn't account for the wine smell nor the red tongue.

As for merit, well, I'm here to have a conversation, answer questions if i can, share what i know. Why would i give you my time if your comments don't allow for this?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 30, 2014, 08:37:43 AM
If you guys remember the show Columbo, he was a seemingly absent minded detective that while investigating a case would discover the most insignificant clues and eventually tie these tiny clues together to explain what happened at the end. Discussing reincarnation is a lot like this show, except we're missing Columbo and we're missing the last couple of scenes that would tie all the clues together.

....but at least you've already got the fictional aspect in common.

Funny but incorrect.

Fiction: "written stories about people and events that are not real"

What i discuss takes into account real stories about real people and their real events. Unfortunately, these stories are of no interest to some people as it doesn't fit the "type of evidence" they are willing to accept.

A thinking man would, at the very least, not outright dismiss what i post. No need to believe it, but clearly not worth tossing out either. This is why i referenced Columbo, but feel free to accept your clever fictional come back as a better answer.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 30, 2014, 08:45:09 AM
What i discuss takes into account real stories about real people and their real events. Unfortunately, these stories are of no interest to some people as it doesn't fit the "type of evidence" they are willing to accept.

You see, the reason why we dismiss these stories, is that the events in them are utter bullcrap.

It might be a real person, but the story, and event, are both utter lies.

A thinking man would, at the very least, not outright dismiss what i post. No need to believe it, but clearly not worth tossing out either. This is why i referenced Columbo, but feel free to accept your clever fictional come back as a better answer.

I am sorry, but a thinking man should indeed throw out bullshit stories.

Otherwise you end up with Bigfoot, tooth fairies, little green men, chupacabras, werewolves, Allah, spaghetti monsters (R'amen), and other complete garbage, all having to be considered.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Ataraxia on January 30, 2014, 08:48:14 AM
If you guys remember the show Columbo, he was a seemingly absent minded detective that while investigating a case would discover the most insignificant clues and eventually tie these tiny clues together to explain what happened at the end. Discussing reincarnation is a lot like this show, except we're missing Columbo and we're missing the last couple of scenes that would tie all the clues together.

....but at least you've already got the fictional aspect in common.

Funny but incorrect.

Fiction: "written stories about people and events that are not real"

What i discuss takes into account real stories about real people and their real events. Unfortunately, these stories are of no interest to some people as it doesn't fit the "type of evidence" they are willing to accept.

A thinking man would, at the very least, not outright dismiss what i post. No need to believe it, but clearly not worth tossing out either. This is why i referenced Columbo, but feel free to accept your clever fictional come back as a better answer.

Well to be fair and accurate, your claims aren't fiction.... they're just indistinguishable from fiction. That's what happens when you have no evidence for an idea - it looks identical to something that has already been falsified.

Also, can you inform us of these different "types of evidence", which "type of evidence" your evidence fits under and the "types of evidence" you'd accept for investigating something yourself?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on January 30, 2014, 09:44:41 AM

Do you not accept that brain damage and chemistry can radically alter a person's behavior?

and they bolded part: Why do I need "merit" in order for you to actually support your claim?

I do, and i also accept it to be inexplicable that people suffering from brain damage in NDE cases around the world report similar bizarre experiences. Brain damage can include a countless number of things, and i doubt all these cases experienced the exact same causation for their brain damage. What they did have in common was that they were clinically dead for a period of time. That's what they had in common, not the cause of the brain damage, or the chemistry.

That is easily explainable without the need of supernatural elements, given they are the same species.



 I can't make wine from beer and I can't make wine from vodka. Yet, in both cases how is that if i handed you a beer and your friend a vodka and you both end up with red tongues and wine breath. That would be very bizarre and inexplicable result worth investigating. Telling me there was alcohol in all these drinks may be a start, but it doesn't account for the wine smell nor the red tongue.

That is easily explainable without the need of supernatural elements, given the tongues and noses are from the same species.



As for merit, well, I'm here to have a conversation, answer questions if i can, share what i know. Why would i give you my time if your comments don't allow for this?

Your quote;

Quote
You've done nothing to merit me handing over answers

is arrogant, extremely so. If someone else was trying to convince you of their argument, particularly something you thought was very likely bunk,  but required you 'prove yourself' before providing support for their claim; would this improve their chances of convincing you?

Furthermore, having the recipient 'prove themselves' is actually a fairly common charlatan tactic. Now, it is generally reserved for an audience that wishes to believe a charlatan's claim, but somewhat skeptical of it. Yet once they become both time and emotionally invested...they become even more receptive. It was part of the spiritualism movement in the lat 1800s, and refined further with Scientology. So when someone says something to this effect, it sets off my skeptic alarm.



Now back to my intial point, which has nothing to do with NDEs, Do you not accept that brain damage and chemistry can radically alter a person's behavior?




Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on January 30, 2014, 09:48:21 AM

Well to be fair and accurate, your claims aren't fiction.... they're just indistinguishable from fiction. That's what happens when you have no evidence for an idea - it looks identical to something that has already been falsified.


Something I've said time and time again to many a "true believer," often provoking anger.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Anfauglir on January 30, 2014, 10:07:10 AM
If you guys remember the show Columbo, he was a seemingly absent minded detective that while investigating a case would discover the most insignificant clues and eventually tie these tiny clues together to explain what happened at the end. Discussing reincarnation is a lot like this show, except we're missing Columbo and we're missing the last couple of scenes that would tie all the clues together.

There was also a famous detective called Clouseau who bumbled through his cases, missing the obvious, chasing down ridiculous red herrings, and generally arriving at a result completely at odds with the theories he had been pursuing.

Discussing reincarnation is a lot like THAT show.  Until we get to the last couple of scenes, we have no way of knowing if we are Clouseaus or Columbos. 

Until you choose to present a specific piece of evidence for analysis, we have no chance to play detective.  Maybe you will produce something indisputable that we have previously been unaware of.  Maybe we will be able to point to the flaws in the evidence that you hadn't spotted.

But certainly, presenting evidence is step one.  You've claimed "solid evidence", so lay it out for us.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: screwtape on January 30, 2014, 10:13:07 AM
And yes, add me to the Shelter if it makes sense, thanks.

you have access.



1. IMO, the brain does not create consciousness because i don't think it probable that a brain can create, or give birth to, something smarter than itself.

Many cognitive experts believe consciousness is an illusion created by the various perceptive and decision making functions of the brain.[1]  I believe the mind - ie consciousness - an emergent property of the brain, thus wholly dependent on it.[2]  My evidence rests on many facts.  The two most important: 

Fact 1: there are people who have suffered traumatic brain injuries whose personalities were changed completely.  I'm not talking about paralysis.  I'm talking about basic personality traits.

Fact 2: brain diseases impair mental functions.  That is changes (damage) to the physical organ impair mental abilities.  If consciousness resides elsewhere, why is this?

Questions for you to chew on:
1. If the brain is not the origin of the mind/ consciousness, then what does it do?
2. If consciousness resides outside the brain, and the brain is some kind of radio receiver, then consciousness is adding energy to the system.  That is, it is causing some brain activity by pushing around matter.  This is only done by energy.  Back in old timey days radio stations used to advertise their broadcasting energy/ power - 50,000watts, or whatever.  Your radio only amplifies the signal.  The power of the signal must come from the transmitter.
So, with regards to consciousness, where does this energy come from and why can we not detect it?

Also, i consider the countless people that are born with particular gifts, for example, musicions (without ever having learned to read a note of muic),

Music ability depends on one thing and one thing only: practice.  It is not a gift.  It is work.  Some people have the creative gift to think up more popular music than others, but I do not think that needs to be explained by dualism, but rather by natural variation in our brain structure.

mathematicians that understand numbers and formulas without prior instruction.

I do not believe any such person exists.  Nobody just magically understands advanced math out of nowhere.  Even if they have not been formally trained and are autodidacts, they still have to undergo training. 

Can you give me an example of such a person?


 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_Explained (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_Explained)
http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_dennett_on_our_consciousness.html (http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_dennett_on_our_consciousness.html)
 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergentism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergentism)
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: jdawg70 on January 30, 2014, 10:31:07 AM
Funny but incorrect.

Fiction: "written stories about people and events that are not real"

What i discuss takes into account real stories about real people and their real events. Unfortunately, these stories are of no interest to some people as it doesn't fit the "type of evidence" they are willing to accept.
Taking into account real stories about real people and their real events does not necessarily mean that you are not making fiction.  Fiction takes into account reality all of the time.  Helps with the suspension of disbelief, or it allows someone to tell a narrative tale within the context of real events.

Quote
A thinking man would, at the very least, not outright dismiss what i post. No need to believe it, but clearly not worth tossing out either. This is why i referenced Columbo, but feel free to accept your clever fictional come back as a better answer.
A thinking person doesn't just take any claim and run with it.  Some manner of filtering needs to be done in order to entertain propositions that merit entertaining.  I'm sorry to say it, but there certainly are claims that are worth tossing out nearly immediately.  Some examples that come to mind:

1) The Moon is made of green cheese.
2) We all existence in a universe called Earth-616, amongst an infinite multitude of other Earths.  Entities occasionally cross barriers and interact with other Earths, including Earth-616.
3) Violin solos cause hysterical pregnancy.
4) A god entity sends tsunamis and tornadoes in response to the sexual proclivities of a percentage of human beings.
5) Snowflakes are made by Jack Frost.
6) Human beings don't die but are instead subject to quantum immortality[1].
7) The radio works because of the tiny people inside.
8) Rotary phones cause HPV.
9) Doing the lindy hop increases your chances of winning the lottery.
a) There exists a 10th planet in between Mercury and Venus.
b) Chicken McNuggets are made from soylent green.
c) It is possible to reverse the flow of time by reversing the rotation of the Earth.  Ideally by flying around it really fast in tights.
d) Vaccines cause autism.
e) Black holes lead to alternate realities.
f) Adding hexane to your gas tank will increase the efficiency of your car's engine.
10) People's consciousness survives death, though it's really just a broken bit off of the singular, actual consciousness; this bit makes rotations around other physical bodies.

Do you feel inclined to dedicate time and effort to explore these claims?  How much time and effort?  Would the presentation of supporting evidence increase your inclination to explore that the moon is made of green cheese, and how much of that evidence would you need?

Personally, I'm not prepared to entertain the notion that Jack Frost is responsible for the creation of snowflakes...well, I would entertain it if sufficient evidence were presented that suggested the idea merits investigation.  But until then - no.
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_immortality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_immortality)
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 30, 2014, 10:40:50 AM
1) The Moon is made of green cheese.

Agreed.

I mean, we ALLLLLLLLL know it is cheddar, and thus yellow.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 30, 2014, 11:03:00 AM
And yes, add me to the Shelter if it makes sense, thanks.

you have access.



1. IMO, the brain does not create consciousness because i don't think it probable that a brain can create, or give birth to, something smarter than itself.

Many cognitive experts believe consciousness is an illusion created by the various perceptive and decision making functions of the brain.[1]  I believe the mind - ie consciousness - an emergent property of the brain, thus wholly dependent on it.[2]  My evidence rests on many facts.  The two most important: 

Fact 1: there are people who have suffered traumatic brain injuries whose personalities were changed completely.  I'm not talking about paralysis.  I'm talking about basic personality traits.

Fact 2: brain diseases impair mental functions.  That is changes (damage) to the physical organ impair mental abilities.  If consciousness resides elsewhere, why is this?

Questions for you to chew on:
1. If the brain is not the origin of the mind/ consciousness, then what does it do?
2. If consciousness resides outside the brain, and the brain is some kind of radio receiver, then consciousness is adding energy to the system.  That is, it is causing some brain activity by pushing around matter.  This is only done by energy.  Back in old timey days radio stations used to advertise their broadcasting energy/ power - 50,000watts, or whatever.  Your radio only amplifies the signal.  The power of the signal must come from the transmitter.
So, with regards to consciousness, where does this energy come from and why can we not detect it?

Also, i consider the countless people that are born with particular gifts, for example, musicions (without ever having learned to read a note of muic),

Music ability depends on one thing and one thing only: practice.  It is not a gift.  It is work.  Some people have the creative gift to think up more popular music than others, but I do not think that needs to be explained by dualism, but rather by natural variation in our brain structure.

mathematicians that understand numbers and formulas without prior instruction.

I do not believe any such person exists.  Nobody just magically understands advanced math out of nowhere.  Even if they have not been formally trained and are autodidacts, they still have to undergo training. 

Can you give me an example of such a person?
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_Explained (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_Explained)
http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_dennett_on_our_consciousness.html (http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_dennett_on_our_consciousness.html)
 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergentism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergentism)

a. thanks for access.

1. I believe that the brain manages the physical body, that's it. The mind or consciousness gives marching orders to the brain. I do not buy that the brain created consciousness/mind.

2. Consider that we have EKG machines that detect the instant absence of electromagnetic activity in the body/heart. Flat lining is the indicator that energy/consciousness (something) has left your body. So that addresses "detecting it". As for where it comes from, i can't answer that exactly, but i propose that it goes back to the same place it came from before it arrived. I also propose that it will take with it, more information and knowledge, not necessarily more wisdom.

As for attributing musical genius to merely practice, i can't agree with that at all. That comment doesn't even come close to explaining children prodigies that basically pick up an instrument and begin playing at the ages of 2 or 3. A few searches on google should give you enough to think about.

As for "musical practice", consider this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Yu

As for the math genius, here's just one to consider:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1369595/Jacob-Barnett-12-higher-IQ-Einstein-develops-theory-relativity.html
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Ataraxia on January 30, 2014, 11:10:27 AM
Flat lining is the indicator that energy/consciousness (something) has left your body. So that addresses "detecting it".

So you assert.... yet again. This is analogous to saying that when we unplug an appliance, electricity falls out the wall.

Really, it's about time you provided your "solid" evidence instead of compounding the issue with even more assertions. Time to put up or shut up.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: jdawg70 on January 30, 2014, 11:15:33 AM
As for the math genius, here's just one to consider:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1369595/Jacob-Barnett-12-higher-IQ-Einstein-develops-theory-relativity.html

That Dailymail article seems to be implying quite a bit of incorrect information:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/scocca/2011/04/01/is_a_12_year_old_smarter_than_einstein_don_t_be_stupid.html

Perhaps if you weren't so busy entertaining any and every possible claim as true you'd have found the time do a bit more than a superficial analysis of a claim.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: jdawg70 on January 30, 2014, 11:16:48 AM
2. Consider that we have EKG machines that detect the instant absence of electromagnetic activity in the body/heart. Flat lining is the indicator that energy/consciousness (something) has left your body. So that addresses "detecting it". As for where it comes from, i can't answer that exactly, but i propose that it goes back to the same place it came from before it arrived. I also propose that it will take with it, more information and knowledge, not necessarily more wisdom.
Also, I'm pretty certain you have no idea how an EKG machine works based on what I've put in bold.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: wheels5894 on January 30, 2014, 11:18:50 AM

a. thanks for access.

1. I believe that the brain manages the physical body, that's it. The mind or consciousness gives marching orders to the brain. I do not buy that the brain created consciousness/mind.

Rather than just saying you don't accept this, why not have a stab at explaining why not. The dualist view of mind body goes back a long way but modern understanding of the brain and the study of those with damaged brain and the study of brain altering drugs means that we need look no further than the brain for the seat of consciousness. After all, if consciousness was not seated in the brain as an emergent property, how would an anaesthetic work. It knocks out parts of the brain but, in your view consciousness is not seated in the brain so would be unaffected. The same applies to a person who is knocked out with a blow to the head. A dualist view fails to explain this, without a lot of wordy exceptions whereas the fact of the brain and consciousness being one explains it perfectly. 

Quote
2. Consider that we have EKG machines that detect the instant absence of electromagnetic activity in the body/heart. Flat lining is the indicator that energy/consciousness (something) has left your body. So that addresses "detecting it". As for where it comes from, i can't answer that exactly, but i propose that it goes back to the same place it came from before it arrived. I also propose that it will take with it, more information and knowledge, not necessarily more wisdom.

Has this been done and can you point us to the research? It looks like only something you propose rather than something tested.

Quote
As for attributing musical genius to merely practice, i can't agree with that at all. That comment doesn't even come close to explaining children prodigies that basically pick up an instrument and begin playing at the ages of 2 or 3. A few searches on Google should give you enough to think about.

As for "musical practice", consider this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Yu

As for the math genius, here's just one to consider:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1369595/Jacob-Barnett-12-higher-IQ-Einstein-develops-theory-relativity.html

I guess we may have to differ on this one but we all know that some people are born with an aptitude for a particular thing - music, maths, acting etc and the cases you quote are like that. The maths guy didn't start with advanced physics but instead has worked hard, with his aptitude, to learn the techniques and use them. The wee pianist might well have managed to strike a tune on the piano, though we don't know the full details - maybe he watched someone play it and copied them, or maybe he had even started piano lessons. Either way, this is no a case of someone reenacting a past life.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: jdawg70 on January 30, 2014, 11:26:48 AM
Rather than just saying you don't accept this, why not have a stab at explaining why not. The dualist view of mind body goes back a long way but modern understanding of the brain and the study of those with damaged brain and the study of brain altering drugs means that we need look no further than the brain for the seat of consciousness. After all, if consciousness was not seated in the brain as an emergent property, how would an anaesthetic work. It knocks out parts of the brain but, in your view consciousness is not seated in the brain so would be unaffected. The same applies to a person who is knocked out with a blow to the head. A dualist view fails to explain this, without a lot of wordy exceptions whereas the fact of the brain and consciousness being one explains it perfectly. 
And let's not forget significant changes in personality and memory due to physical brain trauma or introduction of chemicals crossing over the blood-brain barrier.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on January 30, 2014, 11:31:24 AM
Flat lining is the indicator that energy/consciousness (something) has left your body

BAHAHAHAH...Man...That is a good joke.

Wait, of course, you are serious...

ECG machines detect electrical impulses from cardiac tissues to determine heartbeats in wave form.

Nothing has "left" when it flat-lines, instead, something has stopped, namely the heart.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Xero-Kill on January 30, 2014, 11:45:34 AM
Just a quick devils advocate...

Let me preface this by saying that I do not buy any of the super-conscious stuff, but as an answer to the whole brain damage and personality impairment thing; if the brain is just a processor for these "bits" of the super-conscious and that processor were damaged it would seem reasonable that the end product would still not function correctly. For an analogy, if you damage a component on your CPU, it might still function, just slowly, or even be buggy beyond functional use, but the input remains the same. I type the word "Car" on the keyboard but the output on the screen is "&d2x.0", due to the damaged processor. Whether it is the processor itself (brain emergent conscious) that types the word "Car", or an external input (super-conscious) typing the word "Car", the output is corrupted by the damaged processor either way, and the end result is "&d2x.0" where "Car" should be.

Basically, I just don't think the brain damage argument works in this case, because regardless of which side is correct in all of this, damage to the brain should yield the same result.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: wheels5894 on January 30, 2014, 11:57:55 AM
Just a quick devils advocate...

Let me preface this by saying that I do not buy any of the super-conscious stuff, but as an answer to the whole brain damage and personality impairment thing; if the brain is just a processor for these "bits" of the super-conscious and that processor were damaged it would seem reasonable that the end product would still not function correctly. For an analogy, if you damage a component on your CPU, it might still function, just slowly, or even be buggy beyond functional use, but the input remains the same. I type the word "Car" on the keyboard but the output on the screen is "&d2x.0", due to the damaged processor. Whether it is the processor itself (brain emergent conscious) that types the word "Car", or an external input (super-conscious) typing the word "Car", the output is corrupted by the damaged processor either way, and the end result is "&d2x.0" where "Car" should be.

Basically, I just don't think the brain damage argument works in this case, because regardless of which side is correct in all of this, damage to the brain should yield the same result.

Interesting, but I think there is a way out. Whatever the cause, damage a drug or whatever, we alter the mind /consciousness of a person. Now we have here 2 possibilities i.e.

1. The consciousness, being an emergent property of the brain is changed by the damage to the brain.

2. The consciousness, a separate spirit body, fail to be able to communicate properly with the brain that is damaged

To these possibilities I think -

a. As regards 2. the consciousness should remain the same to the person. That person may have problems using the body to tell us about things but damaging the brain would not impinge on the conscious feelings of the person concerned.

b. In any event, 2. includes something for which there is entirely no evidence and, apparently no way of acquiring any, so Occam wields his razor... and the separate consciousness gets eliminated.

how about that?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: G-Roll on January 30, 2014, 12:08:31 PM
Quote
As for attributing musical genius to merely practice, i can't agree with that at all. That comment doesn't even come close to explaining children prodigies that basically pick up an instrument and begin playing at the ages of 2 or 3. A few searches on google should give you enough to think about.

I think musical aptitude is a tough sell for dualism or something outside the brain that controls that part of an individual. First of all I won't take anything away from the kid. His ability to have "perfect pitch" at the age of two is impressive alone (if he did have that). I would imagine that he stumbled his way through a rendition of happy birthday learning his way as he pecked keys. That being said I would also imagine he was the only one in the room with perfect pitch and coming close to the right pitch or even the right key wouldn’t have the same effect as nailing down the melody. What I am trying to say is that in a room full of people that don’t have the ability to pick musical notes out of the air by ear how would they know if he was in key and had the right pitch? That would still be an impressive act for a two year old however and I would consider him a musical prodigy/genius.
The article states that Marc Yu took lessons soon after that. So his current works are a result of learning from an instructor about melody, harmony, and all the other mysteries of musical theory that the not so trained musician just doesn’t get.
I always have felt that anyone with the desire can not only learn to play an instrument but play it well. Or perhaps in this kids case with the proper motivation from his parents. I wouldn’t expect a two year old to just up and study for himself/herself but this one individual took lessons.
I fail to see the significance of the claim of Mark Yu other than he is a genius who has put a lot of time and effort into the piano.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Xero-Kill on January 30, 2014, 12:11:45 PM
Indeed!

I have no problem with that except a slight quibble with item (a) in that why would you assume that damage to the receiver would not impair the conscious feelings of the person involved?

Again to use an analogy, this time in the form of a radio receiver; if you damage the ability of a radio to receive it's source signal it will absolutely impair functional abilities, especially if the source signal contains control commands. If all or part of signal is not being received, or if what is being received is not being filtered properly then the control commands would not work. Thus, resulting in an end product that does not function correctly.

The only point I wanted to make is that the damaged brain argument is invalid because either way damaging the brain should result in altered performance. The fact that brain damage changes a person is irrelevant because in either model one would expect damage to the organ in question to cause dysfunction. 

I don't  really want to press this point as though I am trying to support Acturbo's assertions, I simply want to eliminate a faulty line of logic in this given debate because it does not follow.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Azdgari on January 30, 2014, 12:23:39 PM
Xero-Kill, in your analogy, consciousness is the radio broadcaster, and the broadcaster should not be affected by someone's faulty radio.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: wheels5894 on January 30, 2014, 12:25:50 PM
Xero-Kill, in your analogy, consciousness is the radio broadcaster, and the broadcaster should not be affected by someone's faulty radio.

Yes, that was the point I was trying to make. An external consciousness ought to be affected by brain injury or even an anaesthetic. If these things affect consciousness it seems to me that the brain is producing it.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: screwtape on January 30, 2014, 12:42:05 PM
1. I believe that the brain manages the physical body, that's it. The mind or consciousness gives marching orders to the brain. I do not buy that the brain created consciousness/mind.

Well, you may not buy it, but you are also probably not really qualified to reject it either.  So many people "don't buy" a lot of things without any basis. 

For example, I am a mechanical engineer.  I have been trained in Newtonian mechanics to the point that I would be considered an expert.  There are experts with a better understanding than I, but I know more about it than at least 90% of the population.  I was explaining some matter of mechanics to Screwtape Sr.  When I got done all he said was, "I don't believe that."  His own son, literally an expert in a field of science that is so useful we have used it for 330 years,  in which Sr has no training whatsoever.  And he takes his own (frankly) ignorant opinion over mine. 

If you take a dualistic approach, as so many people do, and think the "mind gives marching orders to the brain", then you have a lot to explain.  There are experiments that can be done.  I would start by asking you, what would prove your hypothesis to be conclusively wrong?  If the answer is "nothing", well, what is left for us to discuss?

2. Consider that we have EKG machines that detect the instant absence of electromagnetic activity in the body/heart.

Electrical, not EM.  And the EKG is for the heart.  EEG is for the brain.[1] The electrical impusles do not appear out of nowhere, as it would appear if it came from a nonphysical source like a spirit. They come from cells in the body.[2]  It is possible to know the magnitude of the electrical charge (voltage) and the quantity of it (amperage) through physical chemistry.  For example, we know that when you use copper and nickle as your materials in a battery, the voltage will ALWAYS be 1.5v.  So, if the elements in the cells which create a charge are known - and they are - we can very easily predict what the energy output should be.  If this is less than what is measured, then either we figured wrong or there is an additional source of energy.  So far, there is no indication there is an external source of energy.

other references:
http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/301notes2.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuron
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_potential
notice that none of these links have any need to suggest an external source of energy.

Flat lining is the indicator that energy/consciousness (something) has left your body.

Incorrect. It is an indicator that the chemical reactions that produce electricity have ceased.

As for attributing musical genius to merely practice, i can't agree with that at all.

I have to concede, you are right, I overstated my case.  It is not only practice.  There are aspects of music which appear to be inborn such as perfect pitch and memory.  However, none of those are skills and need not be explained by an external mind. That is like saying my 20/10 vision means the mind must be separate from the body. No.  I happened to be born with slightly better lenses in my eyes.  Similarly, some people are born with perfect pitch.  I am not one of those fortunate people.


As for "musical practice", consider this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Yu

from your link:
Quote
Marc heard the children in attendance singing "Mary Had a Little Lamb", at which point the three-year-old went over to the nearby piano and played the song back, never having played with piano before.  By his mother's persuasions he began undertaking formal lessons later that year.

bold mine.  Tthis is not a very detailed or complete account.  But if he was born with perfect pitch (like good eyesight) it is not surprising.  For one, he played a childrens' song, not Bach.  For two, the piano is a very simple instrument to play - you push a button.  It is not as if he played it on the bagpipes.

Marc Yu started to play at a very early age but required lessons and practice to be a virtuoso.  And being Asian, it is not surprising either.  Asian parents tend to be tyrants fanatical when it comes to developing musical aptitude in their children.

As for the math genius, here's just one to consider:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1369595/Jacob-Barnett-12-higher-IQ-Einstein-develops-theory-relativity.html

from your link:
Quote
The boy wonder, who taught himself calculus, algebra, geometry and trigonometry in a week, is now tutoring fellow college classmates after hours.

bold mine.  Autodidact.  His aptitude is certainly on the extreme end of the spectrum, but he still had to learn it.  No need for duality here. 


We as humans often unknowingly feel defensive about our beliefs.  If we believe a thing and someone tells us it is untrue, our reaction is frequently to fight against that suggestion.  You have offered some defenses of your belief reactively.  But it is also clear you know very little about the subject.  You should acknowledge to yourself, if not to me, that wide gaps in your knowledge in critical areas around this belief of yours.   You should understand that your opinion on the matter is probably not well rooted in fact.

There is also an idea with which you might want to acquaint yourself.  It is called the Litany of Tarski.  The original form went like this:
Quote
If the box contains a diamond,
I desire to believe that the box contains a diamond;
If the box does not contain a diamond,
I desire to believe that the box does not contain a diamond;
Let me not become attached to beliefs I may not want.

You can substitute any fact in there.  Try this one:
If duality is true,
I desire to believe that duality is true;
If duality is not true,
I desire to believe that duality is not true;
Let me not become attached to beliefs I may not want.

The point of it is to make sure you believe what is true and to make sure you do not fall in love with your beliefs.  Look up my posts on beliefs paying rent.


 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroencephalography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroencephalography)
 2. http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/human-biology/human-body-make-electricity.htm (http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/human-biology/human-body-make-electricity.htm)
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/07/how-the-human-body-generates-electricity/ (http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/07/how-the-human-body-generates-electricity/)
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Xero-Kill on January 30, 2014, 12:45:15 PM
Xero-Kill, in your analogy, consciousness is the radio broadcaster, and the broadcaster should not be affected by someone's faulty radio.

I am not saying it is, I am saying the receiver is damaged and is not interpreting the broadcast correctly. If, for example, I use a remote control to fly an airplane and the airplane's receiver is damaged so that when it receives the radio signal to bank left it instead turns its nose to the ground and promptly crashes. There was nothing wrong with the broadcast signal, it sent the appropriate signal to the receiver but the damaged receiver malfunctioned and caused a correct signal to be interpreted incorrectly.

Now if that same airplane can fly itself because it is its own conscious self, and it also has a damaged brain and it sends a signal to its control surfaces to bank left but instead it turns its nose to the ground and promptly crashes; what is the difference? The result is the same. The brain was damaged, and the end product failed to function as advertised.

All I am saying is that whether the brain is its own emergent property or a property of some other source that uses the brain as a receiver/processor, damage to the brain would result in improper functioning. So the fact that changes to the brain produces changes in the person are irrelevant because the same would be true in either case.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: jdawg70 on January 30, 2014, 01:09:06 PM
I am not saying it is, I am saying the receiver is damaged and is not interpreting the broadcast correctly. If, for example, I use a remote control to fly an airplane and the airplane's receiver is damaged so that when it receives the radio signal to bank left it instead turns its nose to the ground and promptly crashes. There was nothing wrong with the broadcast signal, it sent the appropriate signal to the receiver but the damaged receiver malfunctioned and caused a correct signal to be interpreted incorrectly.

Now if that same airplane can fly itself because it is its own conscious self, and it also has a damaged brain and it sends a signal to its control surfaces to bank left but instead it turns its nose to the ground and promptly crashes; what is the difference? The result is the same. The brain was damaged, and the end product failed to function as advertised.

All I am saying is that whether the brain is its own emergent property or a property of some other source that uses the brain as a receiver/processor, damage to the brain would result in improper functioning. So the fact that changes to the brain produces changes in the person are irrelevant because the same would be true in either case.

Except that, in either case, the brain is a necessary component to what we call 'the consciousness of the person'.

You are correct - the 'brain trauma changing personality' argument is not a strong argument for the absence of a disembodied 'thingie' that is a part of a mind of a person.  It is a strong argument against the concept that the brain's only function is management of the physical body and is not a fundamental part of the mind.  Whether or not the brain originates the mind is inconsequential to acturbo's proposition that a person's mind and consciousness is sufficiently disembodied as to be able to be transfered between different physical lives.

In order to support the notion that the brain is neither a sufficient nor necessary component of what we identify as 'the mind of the person', the fact that changes to the person's personality - to what we can reasonably observe and associate with the person's mind - can and do occur as a result of physical trauma does need to be addressed.  An in order to support the notion that reincarnation is a remote possibility, it needs to be shown that the brain is neither sufficient nor necessary for the mind.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: wheels5894 on January 30, 2014, 01:26:43 PM
I am not saying it is, I am saying the receiver is damaged and is not interpreting the broadcast correctly. If, for example, I use a remote control to fly an airplane and the airplane's receiver is damaged so that when it receives the radio signal to bank left it instead turns its nose to the ground and promptly crashes. There was nothing wrong with the broadcast signal, it sent the appropriate signal to the receiver but the damaged receiver malfunctioned and caused a correct signal to be interpreted incorrectly.

Now if that same airplane can fly itself because it is its own conscious self, and it also has a damaged brain and it sends a signal to its control surfaces to bank left but instead it turns its nose to the ground and promptly crashes; what is the difference? The result is the same. The brain was damaged, and the end product failed to function as advertised.

All I am saying is that whether the brain is its own emergent property or a property of some other source that uses the brain as a receiver/processor, damage to the brain would result in improper functioning. So the fact that changes to the brain produces changes in the person are irrelevant because the same would be true in either case.

Except that, in either case, the brain is a necessary component to what we call 'the consciousness of the person'.

You are correct - the 'brain trauma changing personality' argument is not a strong argument for the absence of a disembodied 'thingie' that is a part of a mind of a person.  It is a strong argument against the concept that the brain's only function is management of the physical body and is not a fundamental part of the mind.  Whether or not the brain originates the mind is inconsequential to acturbo's proposition that a person's mind and consciousness is sufficiently disembodied as to be able to be transfered between different physical lives.

In order to support the notion that the brain is neither a sufficient nor necessary component of what we identify as 'the mind of the person', the fact that changes to the person's personality - to what we can reasonably observe and associate with the person's mind - can and do occur as a result of physical trauma does need to be addressed.  An in order to support the notion that reincarnation is a remote possibility, it needs to be shown that the brain is neither sufficient nor necessary for the mind.

It would be handy, too, to be shown that the 'thingie' actually exists as it seems to be a nebulous undetectable object and it is not clear how it might manage to hold the memories need to make a person a person.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 30, 2014, 01:44:32 PM
Quote
As for attributing musical genius to merely practice, i can't agree with that at all. That comment doesn't even come close to explaining children prodigies that basically pick up an instrument and begin playing at the ages of 2 or 3. A few searches on google should give you enough to think about.

I think musical aptitude is a tough sell for dualism or something outside the brain that controls that part of an individual. First of all I won't take anything away from the kid. His ability to have "perfect pitch" at the age of two is impressive alone (if he did have that). I would imagine that he stumbled his way through a rendition of happy birthday learning his way as he pecked keys. That being said I would also imagine he was the only one in the room with perfect pitch and coming close to the right pitch or even the right key wouldn’t have the same effect as nailing down the melody. What I am trying to say is that in a room full of people that don’t have the ability to pick musical notes out of the air by ear how would they know if he was in key and had the right pitch? That would still be an impressive act for a two year old however and I would consider him a musical prodigy/genius.
The article states that Marc Yu took lessons soon after that. So his current works are a result of learning from an instructor about melody, harmony, and all the other mysteries of musical theory that the not so trained musician just doesn’t get.
I always have felt that anyone with the desire can not only learn to play an instrument but play it well. Or perhaps in this kids case with the proper motivation from his parents. I wouldn’t expect a two year old to just up and study for himself/herself but this one individual took lessons.
I fail to see the significance of the claim of Mark Yu other than he is a genius who has put a lot of time and effort into the piano.

Just a quick comment on "perfect pitch" ... that's not quite my point. I asked people to consider how the heck  does a child (3-7 year old) play and compose complicated pieces of music. This is way beyond someone just having a good voice or being a quick learner with lots of practice. I offered a simple example of a young kid, Marc Yu, because he's what came up easily enough on Google, but we can find many more cases with varying degrees of talent/weirdness, all leaving us to wonder how this can be possible. The ultimate point i'm trying to make is, that this "talent" existed already as part of a previous experience and has now simply manifested itself again.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 30, 2014, 01:51:03 PM
Just a quick devils advocate...

Let me preface this by saying that I do not buy any of the super-conscious stuff, but as an answer to the whole brain damage and personality impairment thing; if the brain is just a processor for these "bits" of the super-conscious and that processor were damaged it would seem reasonable that the end product would still not function correctly. For an analogy, if you damage a component on your CPU, it might still function, just slowly, or even be buggy beyond functional use, but the input remains the same. I type the word "Car" on the keyboard but the output on the screen is "&d2x.0", due to the damaged processor. Whether it is the processor itself (brain emergent conscious) that types the word "Car", or an external input (super-conscious) typing the word "Car", the output is corrupted by the damaged processor either way, and the end result is "&d2x.0" where "Car" should be.

Basically, I just don't think the brain damage argument works in this case, because regardless of which side is correct in all of this, damage to the brain should yield the same result.

Interesting, but I think there is a way out. Whatever the cause, damage a drug or whatever, we alter the mind /consciousness of a person. Now we have here 2 possibilities i.e.

1. The consciousness, being an emergent property of the brain is changed by the damage to the brain.

2. The consciousness, a separate spirit body, fail to be able to communicate properly with the brain that is damaged

To these possibilities I think -

a. As regards 2. the consciousness should remain the same to the person. That person may have problems using the body to tell us about things but damaging the brain would not impinge on the conscious feelings of the person concerned.

b. In any event, 2. includes something for which there is entirely no evidence and, apparently no way of acquiring any, so Occam wields his razor... and the separate consciousness gets eliminated.

how about that?

I agree with everything, except for b. I would offer to call it "inconclusive" vs "eliminated".
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Azdgari on January 30, 2014, 02:00:15 PM
So you agree that since physical damage or drugs can affect our internal sensation of consciousness, it's implausible that the consciousness originates elsewhere and is unaffected by the brain?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: wheels5894 on January 30, 2014, 03:00:43 PM
Just a quick devils advocate...

Let me preface this by saying that I do not buy any of the super-conscious stuff, but as an answer to the whole brain damage and personality impairment thing; if the brain is just a processor for these "bits" of the super-conscious and that processor were damaged it would seem reasonable that the end product would still not function correctly. For an analogy, if you damage a component on your CPU, it might still function, just slowly, or even be buggy beyond functional use, but the input remains the same. I type the word "Car" on the keyboard but the output on the screen is "&d2x.0", due to the damaged processor. Whether it is the processor itself (brain emergent conscious) that types the word "Car", or an external input (super-conscious) typing the word "Car", the output is corrupted by the damaged processor either way, and the end result is "&d2x.0" where "Car" should be.

Basically, I just don't think the brain damage argument works in this case, because regardless of which side is correct in all of this, damage to the brain should yield the same result.

Interesting, but I think there is a way out. Whatever the cause, damage a drug or whatever, we alter the mind /consciousness of a person. Now we have here 2 possibilities i.e.

1. The consciousness, being an emergent property of the brain is changed by the damage to the brain.

2. The consciousness, a separate spirit body, fail to be able to communicate properly with the brain that is damaged

To these possibilities I think -

a. As regards 2. the consciousness should remain the same to the person. That person may have problems using the body to tell us about things but damaging the brain would not impinge on the conscious feelings of the person concerned.

b. In any event, 2. includes something for which there is entirely no evidence and, apparently no way of acquiring any, so Occam wields his razor... and the separate consciousness gets eliminated.

how about that?

I agree with everything, except for b. I would offer to call it "inconclusive" vs "eliminated".

Great! then offer some reason why an external source we can't detect might be right.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on January 30, 2014, 03:13:19 PM

b. In any event, 2. includes something for which there is entirely no evidence and, apparently no way of acquiring any, so Occam wields his razor... and the separate consciousness gets eliminated.

how about that?

I agree with everything, except for b. I would offer to call it "inconclusive" vs "eliminated".

Are you familiar with the concept of Occam's Razor, and why it is useful?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Xero-Kill on January 30, 2014, 04:11:09 PM
It would be handy, too, to be shown that the 'thingie' actually exists as it seems to be a nebulous undetectable object and it is not clear how it might manage to hold the memories need to make a person a person.

Which is precisely what I wanted to avoid when I made my post and why I included the preface. I was taking all of the woo and nonsense aside and simply pointing out that brain damage is a flimsy argument, because damage in either scenario could feasibly be played out as we observe. This is pure theory and conjecture based solely on the limited information that we have pulled out of Acturbo.

I sincerely hope you guys can see the point I was driving at without the need to pick every nit and then corner me into defending his entire proposition. I will concede on this however because I really don't want to defend this point any further.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on January 30, 2014, 04:22:23 PM
It would be handy, too, to be shown that the 'thingie' actually exists as it seems to be a nebulous undetectable object and it is not clear how it might manage to hold the memories need to make a person a person.

Which is precisely what I wanted to avoid when I made my post and why I included the preface. I was taking all of the woo and nonsense aside and simply pointing out that brain damage is a flimsy argument, because damage in either scenario could feasibly be played out as we observe. This is pure theory and conjecture based solely on the limited information that we have pulled out of Acturbo.

I sincerely hope you guys can see the point I was driving at without the need to pick every nit and then corner me into defending his entire proposition. I will concede on this however because I really don't want to defend this point any further.

While I disagree with your assertion that it makes the brain damage a weak argument, it certainly did slow me down and made me think.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 30, 2014, 04:23:53 PM

b. In any event, 2. includes something for which there is entirely no evidence and, apparently no way of acquiring any, so Occam wields his razor... and the separate consciousness gets eliminated.

how about that?

I agree with everything, except for b. I would offer to call it "inconclusive" vs "eliminated".

Are you familiar with the concept of Occam's Razor, and why it is useful?

I am. Maybe i should have added option "c." to your post instead of correcting option "b.".

This is the 3rd or 4th post that has tried to dismiss reincarnation because of a lack of evidence, the wrong type of evidence, the evidence provided doesn't meet some level of rigor required to accept it etc. What i suggest to people taking this stance, there are enough droplets of evidence to prevent it from being ruled out. There are some posts directed at me to provide evidence. It's not my job to do that ... i've already dropped a couple names, if you're interested in you can research it. I also already posted a link and have received exactly zero comments on it. Again, i will submit Dr. Michael Newton's work into Past Life Regression as evidence that reincarnation deserves investigation. He's documented 6,000 cases over 50 years (i believe). I'm sure someone has thoroughly debunked his work, right?

Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on January 30, 2014, 04:26:56 PM
There are some posts directed at me to provide evidence. It's not my job to do that

If you want your notion to be taken any more seriously than the moon is made of green cheese, yes it is.
If you do not, then, no, it isn't your job.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Dante on January 30, 2014, 04:44:33 PM
Again, i will submit Dr. Michael Newton's work into Past Life Regression as evidence that reincarnation deserves investigation. He's documented 6,000 cases over 50 years (i believe). I'm sure someone has thoroughly debunked his work, right?

How would one go about debunking this claim? Or verifying it, for that matter? How is it falsifiable?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: nogodsforme on January 30, 2014, 04:55:34 PM
The more interconnected and exposed everyone is to different ideas etc, the harder it is going to be to prove this past lives, separate souls business from personal testimony. It is easy to google up info on ancient civilizations or other cultures. And there have always been people who are naturally really good at music or math or languages. That is not like already having the info beforehand. They still have to go to school or take lessons to put the actual info into their brains.

What you would need for evidence of past lives or used souls is someone with inborn knowledge, not just the aptitude to gain the knowledge from elsewhere. That is, a kid who can write out the periodic table and explain what it means, create and explain calculus problems, read sheet music and play it on any instrument, perform Balinese traditional dance and explain the mythology, or speak ancient Aramaic fluently without ever having studied the subjects.

Or someone with specific knowledge so obscure and detailed that it would be hard to even document how the person could have known it. Like, a child born to a devoutly Christian family in rural Arkansas who, at age 5, begins reciting passages of the sacred text of Zoroastrianism. (In fluent Persian.) Or an illiterate child in a slum in Mexico City who recites lines of 12th century Mongolian poetry that has never been translated into Spanish. (In 12th century Mongolian.)

That kind of thing would make worldwide news, and would be easy for experts in the field to corroborate. We would all know about it and past lives would be a scientifically valid concept. Since nothing like that has made the news and been checked out and found to be true, we can assume it has never happened.

Another problem is that there are 7 billion people on the planet right now, and billions more have lived and died since humans appeared on earth. If, as seems to be the case, there is an endless amount of "soul material" out there to pop into new people, why you would ever need to recycle a soul at all? And, if for some impossibly cosmic reason you do have to recycle souls over and over, or fragment them into more bits or whatever, for all eternity, the evidence should be overwhelming.

Wouldn't we all have hundreds of past lives to remember? We should all be prodigies in everything because we would all have been here before, numerous times. We should not be plodding along, learning the same stuff over and over again, doing normal things, waiting to get old, repeating the same boring experiences. Whatta yawn.

Instead of wasting time on the internet why aren't we all out doing extreme sports or using dangerous drugs?  Why don't we die fast, get out of the way of the new souls and move on to the next life. [1]

So far, all we have is unlikely anecdotes passed on by charlatans who know better, by otherwise intelligent people who should know better (that would be you, acturbo) and by gullible people who just believe impossible stuff.
 1. Actually, I think we would just be sleeping a lot more. Eternity seems like a real long slog.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 30, 2014, 05:04:23 PM
There are some posts directed at me to provide evidence. It's not my job to do that

If you want your notion to be taken any more seriously than the moon is made of green cheese, yes it is.
If you do not, then, no, it isn't your job.

Actually, no, its not my job. I'm here voluntarily as are you. I post my comments as you do yours -- read or ignore at will. Is it your job to convince me of anything? No. However, if you're smart enough, you might be able to post information in such a way that will win me over to invest my time to investigate it further. I see a couple of people up here that have earned my attention and i will follow up on their posts because they have taken some time to comment thoughtfully. Wanna get snarky or talk about a moon made out of green cheese? You can certainly do that, but as for me, this post is as much as i'll offer you.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: nogodsforme on January 30, 2014, 05:07:17 PM
Again, i will submit Dr. Michael Newton's work into Past Life Regression as evidence that reincarnation deserves investigation. He's documented 6,000 cases over 50 years (i believe). I'm sure someone has thoroughly debunked his work, right?

How would one go about debunking this claim? Or verifying it, for that matter? How is it falsifiable?

Falsifiable, like, can Dr. Michael Newton tell if someone is experiencing a real past life memory from someone making sh!t up as they go along?  &)

I tried to find any scientific validation of this guy's "work", and it only consists of popular articles and books about hypnosis. He has no documentation to present, or even transcripts of sessions that could be reviewed by other researchers.

He might be a con artist who just made all this up to sell books, ie a sociopath who can lie with no sign of doing it. Or he may sincerely believe that he is tapping into past lives. 

Either way, his "research" is suspect because he does not use controls or have his stuff checked out for, well, for anything factual. :P
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on January 30, 2014, 05:09:23 PM
There are some posts directed at me to provide evidence. It's not my job to do that

If you want your notion to be taken any more seriously than the moon is made of green cheese, yes it is.
If you do not, then, no, it isn't your job.

Actually, no, its not my job. I'm here voluntarily as are you. I post my comments as you do yours -- read or ignore at will. Is it your job to convince me of anything? No. However, if you're smart enough, you might be able to post information in such a way that will win me over to invest my time to investigate it further. I see a couple of people up here that have earned my attention and i will follow up on their posts because they have taken some time to comment thoughtfully. Wanna get snarky or talk about a moon made out of green cheese? You can certainly do that, but as for me, this post is as much as i'll offer you.


Okay: Reincarnation has the same truth value as the moon is made of green cheese.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 30, 2014, 05:11:14 PM
Again, i will submit Dr. Michael Newton's work into Past Life Regression as evidence that reincarnation deserves investigation. He's documented 6,000 cases over 50 years (i believe). I'm sure someone has thoroughly debunked his work, right?

How would one go about debunking this claim? Or verifying it, for that matter? How is it falsifiable?

A few posts ago, i offered the same information. Someone followed up by calling it "all bunk". There wasn't the slightest attempt to review and maybe post back what they found about Dr. Newton's work. Nope, just "its all bunk". That's why i reposted with the idea that maybe an attempt at debunking would be a more appropriate angle instead of just reviewing.

And note that this is part of the bigger topic of accepting testimony as evidence for reincarnation. According to someone else's  post, professional testimony isn't good enough.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: jdawg70 on January 30, 2014, 05:11:46 PM
Another problem is that there are 7 billion people on the planet right now, and billions more have lived and died since humans appeared on earth. If, as seems to be the case, there is an endless amount of "soul material" out there to pop into new people, why you would ever need to recycle a soul at all? And, if for some impossibly cosmic reason you do have to recycle souls over and over, or fragment them into more bits or whatever, for all eternity, the evidence should be overwhelming.
This brings up a interesting tangent.

Is there some reason for the whole 'locality' of reincarnation?  As in, why no recollection of past alien lives?

Are souls (or minds) limited to the speed of light?  Do minds have mass?  What is the method of propulsion?

My guess though...someone is making the assumption that humanity is the only soul/mind-having entity in the entire expanse of the universe.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 30, 2014, 05:27:41 PM
Another problem is that there are 7 billion people on the planet right now, and billions more have lived and died since humans appeared on earth. If, as seems to be the case, there is an endless amount of "soul material" out there to pop into new people, why you would ever need to recycle a soul at all? And, if for some impossibly cosmic reason you do have to recycle souls over and over, or fragment them into more bits or whatever, for all eternity, the evidence should be overwhelming.
This brings up a interesting tangent.

Is there some reason for the whole 'locality' of reincarnation?  As in, why no recollection of past alien lives?

Are souls (or minds) limited to the speed of light?  Do minds have mass?  What is the method of propulsion?

My guess though...someone is making the assumption that humanity is the only soul/mind-having entity in the entire expanse of the universe.

IMO, i suspect we are stuck here in the Earth locality for as long as it serves our purpose of evolving. I suspect we have, and will, incarnate elsewhere and in other forms as our soul/consciousness is ready to take that on. 

As for souls being limited to the speed of light, i would say "it depends", if they are, then:
a) do souls/consciousness exist in this dimension or some other dimension
b) if they exist in some other dimension, we don't know how fast light travels in said other dimension (does it travel faster or slower there?)

I don't know about mass.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: G-Roll on January 30, 2014, 06:19:32 PM
Quote
Just a quick comment on "perfect pitch" ... that's not quite my point. I asked people to consider how the heck  does a child (3-7 year old) play and compose complicated pieces of music.
The same way any other musician does practice and lessons/education as the article you posted suggested. And I fully acknowledge happy birthday as a complicated composition. It's as challenging as twinkle, twinkle, little star... get it? eh? (they are the same song :P)

Quote
This is way beyond someone just having a good voice or being a quick learner with lots of practice.
Kind of like how Tiger Woods is a crazy good golf player right?

Quote
The ultimate point i'm trying to make is, that this "talent" existed already as part of a previous experience and has now simply manifested itself again.
Wait... what?
So... Of all possible answers available from practice, to talent and skill, dumb luck, or even the blessing of a god you decide that it is a past life experience/something learned in the womb/I have no idea what you are talking about but it sounds nutty.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 30, 2014, 06:24:25 PM
Quote
Just a quick comment on "perfect pitch" ... that's not quite my point. I asked people to consider how the heck  does a child (3-7 year old) play and compose complicated pieces of music.
The same way any other musician does practice and lessons/education as the article you posted suggested. And I fully acknowledge happy birthday as a complicated composition. It's as challenging as twinkle, twinkle, little star... get it? eh? (they are the same song :P)

Quote
This is way beyond someone just having a good voice or being a quick learner with lots of practice.
Kind of like how Tiger Woods is a crazy good golf player right?

Quote
The ultimate point i'm trying to make is, that this "talent" existed already as part of a previous experience and has now simply manifested itself again.
Wait... what?
So... Of all possible answers available from practice, to talent and skill, dumb luck, or even the blessing of a god you decide that it is a past life experience/something learned in the womb/I have no idea what you are talking about but it sounds nutty.

You may want to read the past 2 pages of posts.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: G-Roll on January 30, 2014, 06:31:18 PM
IMO, i suspect we are stuck here in the Earth locality for as long as it serves our purpose of evolving. I suspect we have, and will, incarnate elsewhere and in other forms as our soul/consciousness is ready to take that on. 

As for souls being limited to the speed of light, i would say "it depends", if they are, then:
a) do souls/consciousness exist in this dimension or some other dimension
b) if they exist in some other dimension, we don't know how fast light travels in said other dimension (does it travel faster or slower there?)

I don't know about mass.

This is all I need.

Sorry if I am in a rascally mood or just don’t have the motivation/energy to adjust my frequency to understand crazy shit right now.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Anfauglir on January 31, 2014, 04:10:32 AM
Again, i will submit Dr. Michael Newton's work into Past Life Regression as evidence that reincarnation deserves investigation. He's documented 6,000 cases over 50 years (i believe). I'm sure someone has thoroughly debunked his work, right?

Whicj did you find was the most compelling case that he documented?  You must have examined a large number of them, from what you're saying, so which one did you feel was the most useful?  Which one stands up best to analysis? 

Is it your job to convince me of anything? No. However, if you're smart enough, you might be able to post information in such a way that will win me over to invest my time to investigate it further.

Quite right.  Do you apply the same standards to yourself?  At the moment, you have effectively said "go off and read through 6,000 cases of this guy, because it convinced me".  Frankly, what makes that claim any different to someone saying "Dr.Bob has 6,000 studies that show the moon is made of cheese"?

I wouldn't be inclined to go and investigate further, no matter HOW many times you told me you really, really believed in a green cheese moon.  However, if you took the time to tell me about one really really good piece of cheese evidence, in detail, that might influence me to go off and look for some more.

So I'll look forward to you following your own advice to "post information in such a way that will win (us) over to invest (our) time to investigate it further".  And the best thing you could do there is to actually present a piece of evidence, as opposed to saying "the evidence is all our there, go look at it."

Final point - from the forum rules that you agreed to follow.
Quote from: WWGHA Forum Rules
No Preaching - For the purposes of this forum, preaching is defined as the posting of religious proclamations/texts or inculcated religious doctrine without intent to engage members on its validity or support with evidence. The staff will determine if a member is engaging in preaching by using this definition as a baseline aided by the support of past experience.

Discussion threads are for discussion of the topic at hand, not simply advertising one's opinions. As such, forum members are expected to back up assertions they make, and not engage in stonewalling, shifting goalposts, changing the subject, or employing similar tactics to avoid addressing points raised against their arguments.

So let's hear some actual evidence, please.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: screwtape on January 31, 2014, 08:45:59 AM
Actually, no, its not my job.

This is where you still do not understand expectations here.

It is your job, as a claimant, to support your claims with argument and evidence.  It is called the Burden of Proof.[1]

You see, lots of people think it is a viable maneuver to throw out a claim (unicorns exist!) and then demand other people disprove it.  I call this the "Can't Proove It Doesn't" argument.  The problem with that approach is 1) it is very juvenile and 2) you can imagine an infinite number of things that cannot be disproven.  Disproof can be impossibly difficult in many cases.  So engaging in that kind of thought would allow for any kind of fictional entity or idea, which does not help us achieve a better understanding of reality.

For more on this look at Russell's Teapot[2] and Screwtape's Dog[3],  the former being more historic, the latter being more entertaining.
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof)
 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot)
 3. http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,20148.msg444285.html#msg444285 (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,20148.msg444285.html#msg444285)
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Xero-Kill on January 31, 2014, 09:26:10 AM
Further to what Anfauglir said, you should want to dazzle us with your findings, not begrudge us to have to go track it all down ourselves. That is what is so great about the scientific community. One person will toil away on a particular field of study and after a time they might come to a conclusion. Next, he would assemble the best of his studies and research that led him to this conclusion and present it to the rest of the community for examination and refutation. This is where the fun really begins... the rest of the community tears into this guys pile of evidence in an attempt to find something wrong with it. Sometimes, this is easily done *cough*, but every so often something stands up to the scrutiny and... can you guess what happens next? MORE scrutiny! (Gotcha!  ;)) Until FINALLY, Eureka! We have a tested and verified claim. This becomes a scientific fact, like Gravity.

How do you suppose that process would have gone had the scientist detailed above done all of his own research, came to a conclusion, then went before the community and said "Something OUTRAGEOUS is true! If you care to believe me that is fine, but the truth is out there if you just go look!"?

You want us to believe in reincarnation. You admit that you have done some detailed research into the topic and "solid evidence" exists. So, why don't you go slap some of that stuff together (takes an hour, maybe less) and come back here with something that will really blow our socks off!?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 31, 2014, 11:19:04 AM
Again, i will submit Dr. Michael Newton's work into Past Life Regression as evidence that reincarnation deserves investigation. He's documented 6,000 cases over 50 years (i believe). I'm sure someone has thoroughly debunked his work, right?

Whicj did you find was the most compelling case that he documented?  You must have examined a large number of them, from what you're saying, so which one did you feel was the most useful?  Which one stands up best to analysis? 

Is it your job to convince me of anything? No. However, if you're smart enough, you might be able to post information in such a way that will win me over to invest my time to investigate it further.

Quite right.  Do you apply the same standards to yourself?  At the moment, you have effectively said "go off and read through 6,000 cases of this guy, because it convinced me".  Frankly, what makes that claim any different to someone saying "Dr.Bob has 6,000 studies that show the moon is made of cheese"?

I wouldn't be inclined to go and investigate further, no matter HOW many times you told me you really, really believed in a green cheese moon.  However, if you took the time to tell me about one really really good piece of cheese evidence, in detail, that might influence me to go off and look for some more.

So I'll look forward to you following your own advice to "post information in such a way that will win (us) over to invest (our) time to investigate it further".  And the best thing you could do there is to actually present a piece of evidence, as opposed to saying "the evidence is all our there, go look at it."

Final point - from the forum rules that you agreed to follow.
Quote from: WWGHA Forum Rules
No Preaching - For the purposes of this forum, preaching is defined as the posting of religious proclamations/texts or inculcated religious doctrine without intent to engage members on its validity or support with evidence. The staff will determine if a member is engaging in preaching by using this definition as a baseline aided by the support of past experience.

Discussion threads are for discussion of the topic at hand, not simply advertising one's opinions. As such, forum members are expected to back up assertions they make, and not engage in stonewalling, shifting goalposts, changing the subject, or employing similar tactics to avoid addressing points raised against their arguments.

So let's hear some actual evidence, please.

I watched his initial interview video and that's what i recommend people watch. I never said to "go off and read  6,000 cases". I merely stated that was his body of work which lends credibility to his findings. I read both his books Destiny of Souls and Journey of Souls after watching that 1 hour interview on Youtube. I found both books to be very interesting. I can say that if you find the concept of reincarnation to be stupid, then don't bother. I'm sharing this for people that would like to research this topic, as a pretty interesting place to start. That's about it.

As for evidence, the sessions he listed in the books are interesting. Let me explain that the gist of his work is about documenting the sessions with his patients. His hypnosis sessions are ~4 hours long, during this time he puts his patients into hypnosis, and asks a series of questions that help the patient remember who they were in their past life and identifies various details and events about it.. He then zeros in on how they died in their past life and documents what happened during their death, and follows their experience into the post-death world, which he calls "life between lives". That's where it gets interesting. His patients paint the same general picture of existing as "balls of light" (that's the best explanation of it), reuniting with other familiar spirits, the light spectrum of each "spirit" indicates the maturity level of soul (e.g. white is a young soul, yellow maturing, red is more mature, blue very mature, purple even more mature). He finds that most of his patients are not perfectly young, but starting to mature (yellowish). He encountered only a few patients that have described themselves as blue or dark blue (i.e. very mature). Also, his cases are not famous people, the vast majority are regular, boring people.

The case studies vary in demographics, but once under hypnosis, according to his findings, the recollections are similar. So much so, that he was able to assemble a fairly detailed layout and description of this "life between lives" place/dimension. Also, one interesting thing was the rebirth process. That is, he explains that we are active participants in selecting the next body and experiences we are to have before reincarnating. A simple example, if the spirit has not conquered the lessons jealousy, they will come back to a body/set of experiences that will provide more opportunity to work on it. I know, there will be people rolling their eyes at this post --- that's fine. I'm just posting a blunt summary of his work. I would watch his interview to decide if you want to investigate this on your own. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QDT58Q6Zxo

Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: nogodsforme on January 31, 2014, 11:48:59 AM
The interview consists of this guy telling us stories. Anyone can tell stories. That is not evidence. Even if he is very sincere and persuasive. He could be a very sincere and persuasive liar. Or he could be a very sincere and persuasive crazy person.

Evidence= Concrete facts. Checked over and validated by others.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 31, 2014, 11:57:04 AM
The interview consists of this guy telling us stories. Anyone can tell stories. That is not evidence. Even if he is very sincere and persuasive. He could be a very sincere and persuasive liar. Or he could be a very sincere and persuasive crazy person.

Evidence= Concrete facts. Checked over and validated by others.

"stories" = his first hand experience in treating and working with patients.

As i said, if you find him credible in this short interview, then you might be inclined to research his work and claims as you see fit. If not, then fine, it's not for you. Seems we're back to the same issue as before as to the type of evidence you guys are willing to accept. Seems to me that a thinking person should consider this interview intriguing at the very least and worth exploring.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Dante on January 31, 2014, 12:04:09 PM
Seems to me that a thinking person should consider this interview intriguing at the very least and worth exploring.

If you find it intriguiging and worth exploring, then by all means, do so. Then come back to it here when you have some real evidence. Otherwise, it's just another unsubstantiated supernatural claim that skeptics aren't going to bother exploring based on a lack of scientific evidence.

Mostly because there are already vast quantities of real scientific endeavors for us to explore, leaving precious little time for stories, fables, and wishful thinking.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: jdawg70 on January 31, 2014, 12:13:49 PM
Seems to me that a thinking person should consider this interview intriguing at the very least and worth exploring.

If you find it intriguiging and worth exploring, then by all means, do so. Then come back to it here when you have some real evidence. Otherwise, it's just another unsubstantiated supernatural claim that skeptics aren't going to bother exploring based on a lack of scientific evidence.

Mostly because there are already vast quantities of real scientific endeavors for us to explore, leaving precious little time for stories, fables, and wishful thinking.
acturbo, here is a list of topics you may wish to explore in your studies of this reincarnation thing:

1. The nature of memory
2. False memory syndrome
3. The nature of hypnosis
4. Repressed memory therapy
5. Confirmation bias
6. Schema theory
7. Nicholas Spanos
8. Confabulation
9. Bridey Murphy
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 31, 2014, 12:21:11 PM
Seems to me that a thinking person should consider this interview intriguing at the very least and worth exploring.

If you find it intriguiging and worth exploring, then by all means, do so. Then come back to it here when you have some real evidence. Otherwise, it's just another unsubstantiated supernatural claim that skeptics aren't going to bother exploring based on a lack of scientific evidence.

Mostly because there are already vast quantities of real scientific endeavors for us to explore, leaving precious little time for stories, fables, and wishful thinking.

That's fine. Just consider that your statement applies to every single Ph.D. that presents his or her work. That means, according to your statement, every Ph.D. is essentially telling stores, fables and wishing thinking unless what? A mathematical formula is presented? So, all the crime detectives in world, trying to solve crimes and mysteries, seems according to you, they must provide a math formula in order to be believable?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on January 31, 2014, 12:22:05 PM
Seems to me that a thinking person should consider this interview intriguing at the very least and worth exploring.

If you find it intriguiging and worth exploring, then by all means, do so. Then come back to it here when you have some real evidence. Otherwise, it's just another unsubstantiated supernatural claim that skeptics aren't going to bother exploring based on a lack of scientific evidence.

Mostly because there are already vast quantities of real scientific endeavors for us to explore, leaving precious little time for stories, fables, and wishful thinking.
acturbo, here is a list of topics you may wish to explore in your studies of this reincarnation thing:

1. The nature of memory
2. False memory syndrome
3. The nature of hypnosis
4. Repressed memory therapy
5. Confirmation bias
6. Schema theory
7. Nicholas Spanos
8. Confabulation
9. Bridey Murphy

Before posting this list, did you bother to watch the video?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: jdawg70 on January 31, 2014, 12:23:51 PM
Before posting this list, did you bother to watch the video?
Does it matter?

Let's remember that you're the one primarily interested in this topic, not me.  Why would my watching of the video make any difference in your search for truth and understanding of a topic?  I just made suggestions of topics - I wasn't pressing any kind of conclusion on you.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: jdawg70 on January 31, 2014, 12:40:08 PM
That's fine. Just consider that your statement applies to every single Ph.D. that presents his or her work. That means, according to your statement, every Ph.D. is essentially telling stores, fables and wishing thinking unless what?
Unless they provide compelling evidence for their claims.  If they do not do so, then yes, they are telling stories and fables.

Quote
A mathematical formula is presented? So, all the crime detectives in world, trying to solve crimes and mysteries, seems according to you, they must provide a math formula in order to be believable?
If that math formula is pertinent to establishing the innocence or guilt of a person, then yes.

Are you seriously arguing for the validity of the argument from authority?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Dante on January 31, 2014, 12:47:28 PM
Seems to me that a thinking person should consider this interview intriguing at the very least and worth exploring.

If you find it intriguiging and worth exploring, then by all means, do so. Then come back to it here when you have some real evidence. Otherwise, it's just another unsubstantiated supernatural claim that skeptics aren't going to bother exploring based on a lack of scientific evidence.

Mostly because there are already vast quantities of real scientific endeavors for us to explore, leaving precious little time for stories, fables, and wishful thinking.

That's fine. Just consider that your statement applies to every single Ph.D. that presents his or her work.

It soooo doesn't. It applies to hypotheses with no merit, and no grounding in reality though.

Quote
That means, according to your statement, every Ph.D. is essentially telling stores, fables and wishing thinking unless what? A mathematical formula is presented?

Uh, no.  But is peer review, evidence, and falsifiability too much to ask? I think not.

Quote
So, all the crime detectives in world, trying to solve crimes and mysteries, seems according to you, they must provide a math formula in order to be believable?

And...now you're just being defensive because I don't drop to my knees and automatically say "well golly gee, Mr. acturbo, reincarnation sounds really neato!"

So how about you either bring some evidence, or even make a sound logical argument, or at the very least, address some of the potential problems that others in this thread have raised, such as how many souls are out there waiting to be reincarnated? Because, at this very moment, there are more people on the planet than have EVER been on it before.

Look homie, we're all just animals here, hairless apes that evolved a higher capacity for thought. That doesn't make us any more special than a sea slug in the grand scheme of the cosmos, and there's no such thing as souls, no matter how much you wish it to be true.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on January 31, 2014, 12:56:28 PM
That's fine. Just consider that your statement applies to every single Ph.D. that presents his or her work. That means, according to your statement, every Ph.D. is essentially telling stores, fables and wishing thinking unless what?
Unless they provide compelling evidence for their claims.  If they do not do so, then yes, they are telling stories and fables.

Quote
A mathematical formula is presented? So, all the crime detectives in world, trying to solve crimes and mysteries, seems according to you, they must provide a math formula in order to be believable?
If that math formula is pertinent to establishing the innocence or guilt of a person, then yes.

Are you seriously arguing for the validity of the argument from authority?

Actually, IMO, that isn't quite right. If someone is an authority is a certain Field, referring to them when it comes to that field, is not a fallacy.

That is what he is trying to lead you into

But that isn't the question here. The question is: "is this Field valid at all" Which needs to be addressed by someone outside of that Field. You could be an expert in Phrenology or Genetics, but until someone in the Field of Biology acknowledges it is a valid study, what the expert says is of no use.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: median on January 31, 2014, 01:10:25 PM

"stories" = his first hand experience in treating and working with patients.

As i said, if you find him credible in this short interview, then you might be inclined to research his work and claims as you see fit. If not, then fine, it's not for you. Seems we're back to the same issue as before as to the type of evidence you guys are willing to accept. Seems to me that a thinking person should consider this interview intriguing at the very least and worth exploring.

From 5:20 to 6:00 says it all. So this guy has already assumed his conclusion from the outset. He basically starts from the presupposition that there is an afterlife for each person, that people have 'souls', and that people have a "spirit group" and immortality, even though there is no indication whatsoever that he has independently confirmed his alleged findings/hypotheses. It's really just a practice based upon conjecture which is based upon presumption and presupposition. That is not good science.

Science operates with strict rigor, multi-faceted attempts at falsification, independent testing, demonstration, and verification, and the application of critical/skeptical thinking to eliminate confirmation bias and slanted personal filters. This man doesn't seem to be doing any of this. My question to you is: Where is your standard of evidence?? If you are willing to accept the mere claims of one man on a video, what else are you willing to accept based upon mere testimony? Again, science doesn't work this way. There are lots of videos that sound convincing but the fact that a video can sound "interesting" (aka - convincing) to you doesn't tell us anything as to whether or not the claims being made are actually true.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: screwtape on January 31, 2014, 01:12:57 PM
As i said, if you find him credible in this short interview,

His credibility is not the issue.  The issue is evidence.  He has none.  Nobody believed Galileo, Newton, Einstein or Hawking because they were credible.  They believed them because the data matched observations.

How do we know that hypnosis is capable of helping people recall memories of past lives?  As I have already pointed out in prior posts, hypnotherapy can make people think they remember things that never happened like UFO kidnappings and childhood molestation.  So why should anyone suppose that hypnotherapy is able to access something even more outlandish? 

How is anyone supposed to tell when they remember real things or imagined things?

How is anyone supposed to tell true from false?

This is the whole big, giant point you have been avoiding from the very start.  If you have no way to separate reality from fantasy, then your idea is probably not a very good one to hang on to.


Seems we're back to the same issue as before as to the type of evidence you guys are willing to accept.

Indeed.


Seems to me that a thinking person should consider this interview intriguing at the very least and worth exploring.

Ah, so now we are not thinking people because we are unmoved by interviews.  That's great.

To me, a thinking person should want to be able to verify that what they believe corresponds to reality.  To make sure that they believe only what is true.  My efforts to help you in that regard have apparently been a total waste.



edit - are
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on January 31, 2014, 01:19:19 PM
To me, a thinking person should want to be able to verify that what they believe corresponds to reality.  To make sure that they believe only what is true.  My efforts to help you in that regard have apparently been a total waste.


Yeah, has anyone ever noticed the meaning of "open your mind" has changed over time?

It used to mean "look at the evidence and abondon your preconceptions;" now it means, "abandon your evidence and believe in my preconceptions."
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Nam on January 31, 2014, 01:36:42 PM
Yeah, has anyone ever noticed the meaning of "open your mind" has changed over time?

It used to mean "look at the evidence and abondon your preconceptions;" now it means, "abandon your evidence and believe in my preconceptions."


For the wishful thinkers and the delusional: it's always been the latter rather than the former.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: jdawg70 on January 31, 2014, 03:40:37 PM
Actually, IMO, that isn't quite right. If someone is an authority is a certain Field, referring to them when it comes to that field, is not a fallacy.

That is what he is trying to lead you into

But that isn't the question here. The question is: "is this Field valid at all" Which needs to be addressed by someone outside of that Field. You could be an expert in Phrenology or Genetics, but until someone in the Field of Biology acknowledges it is a valid study, what the expert says is of no use.

Thanks for the correction.  This is valid.  Appeals to authority are not necessarily fallacious, depending upon context.

Though this example:

So, all the crime detectives in world, trying to solve crimes and mysteries, seems according to you, they must provide a math formula in order to be believable?

This is what primarily bugged me.  It had a "just believe the awesome detective, no need to actually care why or how he determined innocence or guilt" vibe to it that felt as if acturbo was suggesting that the word of an investigator should be sufficient to establish whether or not a crime occurred.  Me thinks I was reading way more into it than was actually there.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Azdgari on January 31, 2014, 05:03:43 PM
^^ If it turned out that the detective had employed tea-leaf readings to determine someone's innocence or guilt, then I would hope that the detective's authority wouldn't hold more weight in the eyes of a court than what (s)he had actually done to come to his or her conclusion.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: nogodsforme on January 31, 2014, 09:42:31 PM
That is why we have the detective show evidence of their conclusions, and let the court try to tear the evidence apart. Even then, actual physical evidence is way more accurate than a story told by a detective or a witness. People lie, forget stuff, make mistakes, get threatened, get confused, get scared and get flustered. Physical evidence does none of those things.

We have many cases of convictions-- based on witness testimony-- being overturned after new DNA or other physical evidence is presented. Much rarer is the DNA evidence being overturned by testimony from an eyewitness. People can make mistakes interpreting physical evidence, but the evidence itself does not lie.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: screwtape on January 31, 2014, 09:56:53 PM
My 6th grade teacher used to say "figures don't lie, liars figure".   

Whatever that means...
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on January 31, 2014, 10:37:31 PM
That is why we have the detective show evidence of their conclusions, and let the court try to tear the evidence apart. Even then, actual physical evidence is way more accurate than a story told by a detective or a witness. People lie, forget stuff, make mistakes, get threatened, get confused, get scared and get flustered. Physical evidence does none of those things.

We have many cases of convictions-- based on witness testimony-- being overturned after new DNA or other physical evidence is presented. Much rarer is the DNA evidence being overturned by testimony from an eyewitness. People can make mistakes interpreting physical evidence, but the evidence itself does not lie.

Truth is a chimera, facts don't change. The Battle of Little Big horn is an excellent example of that.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Nam on January 31, 2014, 10:46:47 PM
My 6th grade teacher used to say "figures don't lie, liars figure".   

Whatever that means...


Liars figure the angle of the truth that works best for them which negates the truth as being 'a' truth.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Anfauglir on February 03, 2014, 08:45:25 AM
Whicj did you find was the most compelling case that he documented?  You must have examined a large number of them, from what you're saying, so which one did you feel was the most useful?  Which one stands up best to analysis? 
I watched his initial interview video ...... I read both his books Destiny of Souls and Journey of Souls after watching that 1 hour interview on Youtube. I found both books to be very interesting.....As for evidence, the sessions he listed in the books are interesting.... (he)asks a series of questions that help the patient remember who they were in their past life and identifies various details and events about it.....

So to put it simply.  People tell him stories under hypnosis that they claim detail their past lives. 

And the evidence that those stories are based in fact are......?

From what you've said so far, the guy has NO evidence that any past life actually happened.  Has he tracked down borth/death certificates that match their tales?  Founrd corobborating documents that support what they are saying?  Apparently not.

So what we've got here, is a guy told stories under hypnosis, who has not taken any effort to verify what he has been told.  You have heard what he has done, decided it sounds cool, and adopted it as your belief system.  You have no evidence that any past life actually occurred.....and call us names for not leaping to find out if it is all "true".

Funny thing - we get loads of peple coming here with their own little brand of "woo".  NONE offer any evidence.  ALL tell us how close-minded we are for not immediately accepting it, or rushing off to find out more.  You've not given one shred of a reason why we should bother to look any further into things at all - and its painfully apparent that you have never looked critically at what you are claiming, not least because you've been unable to provide even ONE case for us to consider.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on February 03, 2014, 09:32:55 AM

Quite right.  Do you apply the same standards to yourself?  At the moment, you have effectively said "go off and read through 6,000 cases of this guy, because it convinced me".  Frankly, what makes that claim any different to someone saying "Dr.Bob has 6,000 studies that show the moon is made of cheese"?


What make is it worse is that Dr. Bob has 6000 studies of people stating they know the moon is cheese because they said they remember being there and tasting the cheese. And not one study of actual moon substance.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: jordancda on February 03, 2014, 10:34:21 AM
it has been banned.

spam removed.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: jdawg70 on February 03, 2014, 10:55:37 AM

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Why won't god heal amputees?
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Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: jtk73 on February 03, 2014, 04:40:46 PM
...puts his patients into hypnosis, and asks a series of questions that help the patient remember who they were in their past life...

This ^^ right here in bold. I don't need to read any further or watch the video. (As Median mentioned previously) Dr. Newton is not approaching this from a neutral stand-point. He already assumes that an afterlife exists. He already assumes that reincarnation occurs. He is actively encouraging/guiding these people to reveal past life information assuming that every word out of their mouths is true. Why would he assume this? Most likely because he presupposes it to be true and/or he desperately wants it to be true.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: nogodsforme on February 03, 2014, 06:46:48 PM
^^^^Exactly. This is about as scientific as 1)gathering random samples of small children in US shopping malls during the month of December and 2)asking them if Santa Claus is real and 3)tallying the results and 4)deciding that Santa exists based on over 50% of the respondents saying yes.

Actually the Santa project would be more scientific than this guy's hypnosis results, because at least you started with a random sample...... :P

These are some ways to make this guy's work closer to valid science:

1)Start with a random sample, or a least a less biased sample.  Don't select anyone who expresses a strong prior belief for or against past lives; only choose people who are neutral on the issue. You should not have people who want /don't want past lives to be true contaminating the data.

2) Assign the people randomly to different hypnotherapists who all use the same set of questions. Make sure the questions are general ones and not leading toward or away from past lives. Like: "Where are you right now?" Not: "Are you in the past?"

3) Have transcripts of the sessions gone over by independent researchers to look for patterns or references to past lives. Count misses (no reference to past lives) along with hits (references to past lives). Publish the raw data along with the summary reports.

4) Finally, any time there is any past life reference that includes factual details, have independent researchers check the facts for accuracy. Whenever possible, try to determine if there was a way for the person hypnotized to have obtained the information beforehand.

5) Don't just accept that the person was Suzette,  the 14-year old second handmaiden to Marie Antoinette at the time of her beheading. If someone says they were Suzette, find out if there really was any such person and check out the details for accuracy. Was the queen's bedchamber actually painted green and pink? Did the queen have a mole on her left ankle? Can that information be found on google?

If there were studies that, minimally, did the above and were statistically sound, we might have some basis to think there might be past lives. I would be interested in looking further. But the stuff this guy does with hypnotizing people and telling us what they say? BOGUS.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: acturbo on February 05, 2014, 01:21:05 AM
...puts his patients into hypnosis, and asks a series of questions that help the patient remember who they were in their past life...

This ^^ right here in bold. I don't need to read any further or watch the video. (As Median mentioned previously) Dr. Newton is not approaching this from a neutral stand-point. He already assumes that an afterlife exists.

Actually, no. He was an atheist and a traditional hyno-therapist -- he had no interest in doing this type of hypnosis. This is explained in the first 5-7 minutes of the video clip i posted. He explains that his very first past-life regression session happened by accident.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Azdgari on February 05, 2014, 01:29:43 AM
Try reading jtk's post again, this time with the intent of understanding its words.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: screwtape on February 05, 2014, 07:46:01 AM
He explains that his very first past-life regression session happened by accident.

I'm sure it did.  That does not make it any more legitimate.  It just means he his unable to see his own error.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Anfauglir on February 05, 2014, 09:51:23 AM
....in the first 5-7 minutes of the video clip i posted (he)explains that his very first past-life regression session happened by accident.

Okay.  Does the video address ANY of nogodsforme's point about the nature of scentific studies?  Does the video explain how - after that first tale of regression was told to him - he went back searching archives to establish the legitimacy of everything he was told, and how he eliminated the possibility that the subject had seen or heard the information somewhere and simply assimilated it into a "memory"?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on March 08, 2014, 10:43:48 AM
Atheists are the bad guys.  They killed over 100 million people in under a 100 years. Nice going.

Ironically, your god apparently killed over 200 million within a day.

Ignorance is bliss.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: wheels5894 on March 08, 2014, 10:46:28 AM
For the record, the [wiki]1918 influenza epidemic[/wiki]  killed more people than the whole of the 1st World War. Some god who let that happen!
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on March 08, 2014, 10:50:50 AM
Heck, atheists have never killed anyone for the cause of "atheism", so the point is rather flat.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: median on March 08, 2014, 11:12:28 AM
New name for Screwtape  = COCKTAPE

New name for Nam = DICKHEAD.

Atheists are the bad guys.  They killed over 100 million people in under a 100 years. Nice going.


Your assumption is in error b/c you are acting as if non-believers in your superstition killed people because they didn't believe in your superstition. FAIL. You might as well point to every serial killer who was a non-astrologer and say that they killed their victims because they were "a-astrologerists".

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. People do things for a variety of reasons and one of those reasons has to do with who they are, not who they are not. Atheism (just like non-astrology) is a LACK of belief. It is NOT a belief in anything. Theism is A BELIEF in a God. Atheism is the LACK of that belief.

Do you believe in Unicorns? If not, we could say "HA! Every bad thing you do is because you believe in a-unicornism!" and this accusation would be false (just like the one you're making about atheists).

Do you actually care whether or not your beliefs are true?


Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: wheels5894 on March 08, 2014, 11:20:33 AM
Besides which, some of the persecutions by Christians on non-Christians (like forced conversion of Jews), the Spanish Inquisition and, of course, witch hunting suggests that Christians can manage their own brand of mass killing. I'd hate to see them in charge of modern weaponry!

Hang on.... dear of Bush junior managed to kill lots in bomb strikes over Iraq didn't he? he was Christian too? Gosh, it's happened! We don't want Christians in charge of such things again.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Hatter23 on March 09, 2014, 02:43:19 AM



Atheists are the bad guys.  They killed over 100 million people in under a 100 years. Nice going.

But they were also Aflyingshoeists...and the class of Human Aflyingshoeist killed even more...why not portray them as the bad guys?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: jdawg70 on March 10, 2014, 09:56:25 AM
But they were also Aflyingshoeists...and the class of Human Aflyingshoeist killed even more...why not portray them as the bad guys?

You know, the Aeiffeltowerists used to have a similar track record as the Aflyingshoeists insofar as body count is concerned.  However, sometime around 1889 the number of deaths attributable to Aeiffeltowerists essentially dropped to zero.  And to this day, the number of deaths caused by Aeiffeltowerists is zero.

I think it's safe to say that the morality of the Aeiffeltowerists reigns supreme.  I suggest we all adopt that moral framework immediately.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: freeatlast on April 03, 2014, 04:54:43 PM
Such a response from a pastor is not a surprise.  It is a version of the catch all "it's God's will" answer that makes it really frustrating to have intellectual discourse with a religious person.

The critical aspect of the question "Why won't god heal amputees?" is the fact that for a limb to grow back would qualify as a miracle because there is no off-chance of it happening.  As such, it makes sense for people who believe that god answers prayers to only pray about things that are actually possible. Doing so provides an opportunity for chance and probability to reinforce their belief that god answers prayers. 

However, no pastor will ever answer this question honestly and thoughtfully because they are unable to without spewing out a version of the catch-all answer "It's god's will."  That or realize that religion is bullshit. 
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: Defiance on April 04, 2014, 06:39:08 PM
"Win at life without it"

Meaning it won't happen. Nice evasion. But we're back at square one; "he she it" will not fix any limbs.

Is it selfish to ask for your legs so you can plow the field for your family again?

Is it selfish to ask for your arms you can walk your kids to school?

Is it?

No. Then whence comes the problem?
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: nogodsforme on April 05, 2014, 02:08:47 PM
Bit of a necro, but both responses above have merit.

If someone prays for all the wounded soldiers who have lost limbs to have their arms and legs restored like new, how would that be selfish?

I would bet that many a devastated parent in Sierra Leone, Cambodia, Laos, Afghanistan or Iraq has prayed desperately for a god to help their amputee child. Most of those kids will either die prematurely from nasty infections, or spend their lives as invalids in horrible pain, many becoming addicted to opium or other drugs. They will not "win at life".

Their parents would give up their own lives, or give away all they owned and devote themselves to missionary work, or become a nun or monk--whatever the god wanted, if that god would magically restore their child's lost arm or leg. But no. Nice gods you folks have there.

Can you imagine how hard someone would work for any god who healed their amputee child, or army friend? If I saw that happening, I would convert to that god's religion on the spot.

But again, no. God would rather lose all those opportunities to save souls, and get his message across unambiguously. He likes to see amputees suffer. Because homie god don't play dat.  &)
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: johnrain on April 06, 2014, 05:52:58 AM
http://www.gotquestions.org/God-heal-amputees.html

The following is a link to a Christian site that tries to answer why God doesn't heal amputees. I find it rather infuriating. It basically states that we will be rewarded in the afterlife and that is a lot better than having your limbs regenerated in this life.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: wheels5894 on April 06, 2014, 08:08:23 AM
Yep, just making excuses for a god who isn't there. Anyone who comes up with the idea that we can't know that no one has ever regrown a limb is, quite frankly, nutty! It is common experience that this does not happen and has not happened in 2,000 years at least. I'm not sure that we can take the stories healing of ears and lepers quite on face value as actualt events in any case.
Title: Re: Why won't God heal amputees? Because he can make you win at life without it.
Post by: screwtape on April 07, 2014, 08:48:42 AM
http://www.gotquestions.org/God-heal-amputees.html

The following is a link to a Christian site that tries to answer why God doesn't heal amputees. I find it rather infuriating. It basically states that we will be rewarded in the afterlife and that is a lot better than having your limbs regenerated in this life.

ya.  That one's been done to death here.  Try the search function to find where.