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Main Discussion Zone => General Religious Discussion => Topic started by: median on October 07, 2013, 11:01:47 PM

Title: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 07, 2013, 11:01:47 PM
I really want to hear Christians respond. How is it that you think Jesus actually died for your sins? According to this story, the guy didn't stay dead. What kind of sacrifice is that? In the OT the slaughtered cattle didn't come back. Now, a God named Yahweh supposedly made everything (knowing what would happen), and planned it all out so that it would happen just the way he wanted it to (his "divine plan") just so he could come down and sacrifice himself, to himself, then preach to some people in hell for three days only to come back to life? Does this honestly make any sense to you? If so, how? A real hero would actually stay dead. His sacrifice would be a true loss for him (i.e. - he would lose everything in order that we would gain) - but that is not what happened according to the bible. God didn't kill himself so that we could live. So, why should we think this story is true?  Doesn't it just sound more like foolish men made it all up (just like in other religions)?


Christians, please help us non-believers understand why you believe this story (what good reason do you have) and why should anybody think it makes any sense?


(http://www.atheistmemebase.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/312-Ultimate-sacrifice-jesus-sacrifice-philosoraptor.jpg)
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: William on October 07, 2013, 11:16:38 PM
Everybody lives after they die, silly &)  :angel:
It was the suffering that counted.
But if I were Jesus I would have deployed a bit of secret heavenly magic analgesia - wouldn't you if you could? :? Only a very sick-in-the-head person enjoys their own suffering when they have the power to prevent it.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Add Homonym on October 08, 2013, 01:28:19 AM
Possibly they focus more on the resurrection, which is your symbolic rebirth.

I don't know if the gospel and the Paul really concentrate on the sacrifice all that much. Paul just says that whatever he did, killed your sins. I think modern Christians have invented the ultimate sacrifice/died for our sins.

Think of Jesus more as a corn dolly that is buried for a fertility right. He resurrects and the spirit vibes transfer into the new earth, and the world then ends.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Mrjason on October 08, 2013, 04:35:23 AM
Even if he had stayed dead wouldn't knowing for certain that there was an afterlife invalidate the sacrifice?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: William on October 08, 2013, 05:14:25 AM
Possibly they focus more on the resurrection, which is your symbolic rebirth.

In my days a Christian (Catholic) it was definitely ALL about the suffering - the guilt trip ruled! 
It was we sinners who did this to Jesus. It was the cumulative burden of all sin that caused this - nobody could escape blame. 
The Jews took more of the blame of course because they actually got all this done to their own Messiah  :o  and we enlightened Christians would/should never make the same mistake as the Jews :angel:  (Involving the Jews as the real villains was perfect because if the guilt of causing the suffering of Jesus was too much to bear - like you'd prefer to accept your own punishment or kill yourself instead of Jesus, you could mentally shift just enough blame onto the Jews to make it palatable to be vicariously saved. )

Think about the "Stations of the Cross" where they dwell and reflect on the gory details of every torturous stage of the crucifixion.  It's designed to make you feel as shitty as possible about being implicated through sin.  Think about the Mel Gibson movie or the Philippine re-enactments.   

(http://ww1.hdnux.com/photos/12/50/17/2786252/3/628x471.jpg)

Everything is to showcase the suffering - the more horrid the better - that's what makes believers emotional and incapable of being rational about Jesus.  That raw emotion - empathy and guilt - is the engine room of the Christian meme.

The bit about the resurrection was more of a pressure release - the fucking ordeal was finally behind us and there was hope, and we could break the Easter fast.  All that flying around like Superman, scaring people, fish finding, pwning Thomas, etc was just a final bit of icing-on-top proof that this guy really was divine and fulfilled prophecies.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: hickdive on October 08, 2013, 05:21:24 AM
Jesus had a lousy long weekend for you.

I keep pointing this out to christians; if you can create an entire universe in a mere six days which involved inter alia poofing into existence humans in the form of Adam and Eve and all other living organisms then resurrecting anyone after three days is a mere parlour trick.

Furthermore, if you happen to be the omniscient and omnipotent creator of all things then you know you're going to be resurrected after three days and you're not sacrificing anything at all.

Even if you allow for the theological position that jesus was in hell, suffering, for those three days it still pales into insignificance when compared with the theological position that failing to worship the bloke who spent three days in hell for you means you get to spend eternity there.

If the story was true then it would be an extremely unimpressive "sacrifice"; about as impressive as me giving up smoking for lent.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Anfauglir on October 08, 2013, 06:54:39 AM
I was once told that the "sacrifice" was giving up his one chance at a human life before his appointed time - which makes NO sense when you think about it.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Add Homonym on October 08, 2013, 07:40:41 AM
I was once told that the "sacrifice" was giving up his one chance at a human life before his appointed time - which makes NO sense when you think about it.

Yeah, it does, because it proves that he didn't live for 34 years, prior to dying.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nick on October 08, 2013, 08:08:31 AM
All Jesus did was shut down the government for 3 days. ;)  (or was it a "slimdown"?)
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Anfauglir on October 08, 2013, 09:23:17 AM
I was once told that the "sacrifice" was giving up his one chance at a human life before his appointed time - which makes NO sense when you think about it.

Yeah, it does, because it proves that he didn't live for 34 years, prior to dying.

Sorry Add, not quite sure what you mean there?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 14, 2013, 04:02:43 PM
I guess Christians really can't handle this question :/
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Lectus on October 14, 2013, 04:06:21 PM
And He prayed to Himself too in the cross, since there's only one God.

 :o
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 14, 2013, 04:13:15 PM
And He prayed to Himself too in the cross, since there's only one God.

 :o

Pretty funny how Christians try to rationalize this blatant contradiction within their theology (the triune Godhead?). The bible clearly says there is only one God. Yet at the same time it mentions at least three separate Gods as such (in fact it mentions more than that if you count demons, idols, etc). Such is the M.O. of religion - use rationality and critical thinking in everything else in life - except the one particular religion you happen to belong to.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nick on October 14, 2013, 04:54:51 PM
They had to merge the Roman multi god thing with Christianity so the 3 in one came about.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 14, 2013, 06:35:01 PM
Weren't the Christians during Roman times trying to make their religion more palatable to the pagan's/non-believers? Isn't this why so many Christian doctrines sound pagan in origin? It seems quite plausible that Paul was the one who created Christianity and spread it.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 14, 2013, 11:34:48 PM
Hey guys, I'm a Christian and hope to discuss things with you. My username means that I am skeptical of non-belief. It's kind of a "reverse" of the normal use for skeptic.  ;D

With that said, I would like to say that Jesus' sacrifice was important because He willingly did it. That is the ultimate act of love. Jesus showed that he conquered death. Everybody dies, but Jesus was an exception. That's what made it so extraordinary.

In the Old Testament, blood of an innocent lamb was used on the door's of the Hebrews. This represented how an innocent animal must be sacrificed to atone for sins. This was foreshadowing the New testament where jesus is the innocent lamb and used as a final sacrifice for all. That's why animal sacrifices are not needed anymore.

jesus was the ultimate innocent sacrifice. I know a lot of people think of the OT as "Evil" and "barbaric" but it is not. There are reasons God does what he does. Blood spread o the door was not evil and barbaric. It symbolized the coming of Jesus' sacrifice in the New Testament.

I hope this helps. I'm not here to preach, just to explain my point of view. I will not just be quoting the Bible mindlessly.

Hope we can have good convos!  :)
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Benny on October 14, 2013, 11:51:05 PM
Welcome to the forum, Skep.  Looking forward to some good discussions.  You seem to be rational and reasonable so far, so I think you'll like it here, if you have a thick skin  ;)

Jesus' sacrifice was important because He willingly did it. That is the ultimate act of love. Jesus showed that he conquered death. Everybody dies, but Jesus was an exception. That's what made it so extraordinary.

Did he know that he was going to be resurrected?  If so, then why is it that big a deal that he died, when he knew he would be saved anyway?  Related: did Jesus spend his three-day slumber in heaven?  If so, it doesn't sound like too big a sacrifice to me.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: William on October 14, 2013, 11:51:25 PM
I would like to say that Jesus' sacrifice was important because He willingly did it.
Explain "willingly" please? 
Was there no pressure from the prophets and the Father? 
What options were open to Jesus?


jesus was the ultimate innocent sacrifice.
What's "ultimate" about sacrificing an "innocent"?  It's a sick idea.
Why is a sacrifice even necessary?

Apart from that welcome aboard :)

Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 15, 2013, 12:22:02 AM
skeptic54768, Welcome to the forum. Please make sure to read and observe all of the forum rules and learn how to use the quote function properly when responding to specific posts. The quote function will come in very handy and will make life much easier for everyone. I will begin now by responding to your responses below while using that function :) Let reason be our guide!

Hey guys, I'm a Christian and hope to discuss things with you. My username means that I am skeptical of non-belief. It's kind of a "reverse" of the normal use for skeptic.  ;D

This, unfortunately, is an often used 'trick' by Christian apologists in an attempt to shift the burden of proof. However, it doesn't work because the negative of a negative is a positive. Think for example about whether or not you are skeptical of non-belief in Unicorns. This would be fundamentally no different from saying you believe in unicorns. So saying you are "skeptical of non-belief" is merely to confuse language by using the negative of a negative. Why not just admit you believe X things and move forward with providing evidence? This seems like a much more honest and accurate approach to discussion and debate.

With that said, I would like to say that Jesus' sacrifice was important because He willingly did it. That is the ultimate act of love. Jesus showed that he conquered death. Everybody dies, but Jesus was an exception. That's what made it so extraordinary.

The point of the OP (Original Post) was that, according to what the bible claims, Jesus didn't stay dead and so his "sacrifice" wasn't genuine - especially since he was supposedly God in flesh. So God sacrificed himself, to himself (but didn't actually stay dead) in order to "save us" from himself? Isn't this God supposed to be all-powerful? If so, it doesn't seem this action (if it happened) did anything at all b/c an all-powerful God cannot lack anything, and therefore by definition cannot sacrifice anything. Do you follow? If God requires a sacrifice (and I think this is an absurd idea) why would a very short three days away from earth be sufficient? The point is, if he didn't stay dead (and therefore actually lose something) then this doesn't seem to count as a real sacrifice at all.

In the Old Testament, blood of an innocent lamb was used on the door's of the Hebrews. This represented how an innocent animal must be sacrificed to atone for sins. This was foreshadowing the New testament where jesus is the innocent lamb and used as a final sacrifice for all. That's why animal sacrifices are not needed anymore.

So slaughtering something innocent (i.e. - a bull, lamb, or person) somehow makes it so that we are no longer responsible for our actions? How? Would you sacrifice your son or daughter if you thought God told you to (like Abraham supposedly) and if you thought other people would forget about how you wronged them? The idea of blood sacrifice doesn't seem to have any connection whatsoever to our actions, other than just a divine dictator saying, "This is how it is", but is that kind of dictatorship moral? How can we evaluate whether or not this alleged God is actually "good" or not? In other words, how can we determine if a sacrifice is necessary?

jesus was the ultimate innocent sacrifice. I know a lot of people think of the OT as "Evil" and "barbaric" but it is not. There are reasons God does what he does. Blood spread o the door was not evil and barbaric. It symbolized the coming of Jesus' sacrifice in the New Testament.

You don't think mass genocide, human sacrifice, slavery, infanticide, and rape are barbaric or evil? What could be more barbaric than those? I won't assume you have read the whole bible but many of us here (including myself) have and find those "reasons" quite wrong and irrational. Have you read the passages in 1 Samuel 15 where God supposedly commands the slaying of women and children, or Psalm 127 where God supposedly says, "Blessed is he who dashes the little babies against the stone"? In Exodus 21 God allegedly sanctions slavery (owning people as property) and in Judges 11 God condones human sacrifice. Can you think of any situation where this would be morally OK? It would seem to me that if a sacrifice is required for wrong doing then God himself needs a sacrifice for his wrong doing. I do realize this will likely get us into discussing the Euthyphro Dilemma but that's OK.

If Jesus was God, and was the ultimate sacrifice, why didn't he stay dead? A real "sacrifice" would require a loss, don't you think? But in this story, God didn't lose himself did he? Can God lose anything? He didn't really even die b/c his real self was (supposedly) immaterial and lived on (isn't he supposed to be eternal?). Of course, I personally don't think any of this took place at all but I think it's important to think critically about these doctrines - especially when there is so much at stake. Don't you?

I hope this helps. I'm not here to preach, just to explain my point of view. I will not just be quoting the Bible mindlessly.

I am glad about this, and for what it's worth I used to believe these things too until I ran into a bunch of ex-Christian folks like us here and had to change my view to better fit with sound reasoning and intellectual honesty ;)


I look forward to your reply and thank you for joining WWGHAF.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 15, 2013, 01:11:49 AM
Welcome to the forum, Skep.  Looking forward to some good discussions.  You seem to be rational and reasonable so far, so I think you'll like it here, if you have a thick skin  ;)

My skin is very thick. I have no fear of anything. God is always with me.

(Does that count as preaching? If so, I won't do it.

 but to me personally, this is just how I feel, I'm just not trying to preach and I apologize if you view it that way. I never know how it may look to the people of the other side of the debate.)

[/quote]

Did he know that he was going to be resurrected?  If so, then why is it that big a deal that he died, when he knew he would be saved anyway?  Related: did Jesus spend his three-day slumber in heaven?  If so, it doesn't sound like too big a sacrifice to me.

Jesus knew he would be resurrected since the beginning of time. Imagine the agony of preparing for the sacrifice since the beginning of time. How dreadful it must have been.

Jesus also had the weight of everyone's sins so He experienced way more pain than anyone has ever had. Imagine the heavy burden Jesus had.

As to where jesus was for the 3 days, he was dead. No afterlife or anything. Just in a state of death, most likely how atheists view death.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 15, 2013, 01:14:10 AM
Explain "willingly" please? 
Was there no pressure from the prophets and the Father? 
What options were open to Jesus?

The prophets nor the Father pressured jesus into it.

The Prophets merely described what jesus was going to do, based on Jesus' own choice.

What's "ultimate" about sacrificing an "innocent"?  It's a sick idea.
Why is a sacrifice even necessary?

Apart from that welcome aboard :)

An innocent sacrifice must be made as redemption for sins. Something clean needs to be used to redeem the dirty.
The dirty can not redeem the dirty.

And thanks for the welcome! Hope to learn something here.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 15, 2013, 01:15:26 AM
This, unfortunately, is an often used 'trick' by Christian apologists in an attempt to shift the burden of proof. However, it doesn't work because the negative of a negative is a positive. Think for example about whether or not you are skeptical of non-belief in Unicorns. This would be fundamentally no different from saying you believe in unicorns. So saying you are "skeptical of non-belief" is merely to confuse language by using the negative of a negative. Why not just admit you believe X things and move forward with providing evidence? This seems like a much more honest and accurate approach to discussion and debate.

I do not see unicorns the same way as God.

I had a spiritual experience with God. I never had a spiritual experience with unicorns. Many people around the world always claim to spiritually experience God, not unicorns.

That is why I believe it is unfair to compare the two.


The point of the OP (Original Post) was that, according to what the bible claims, Jesus didn't stay dead and so his "sacrifice" wasn't genuine - especially since he was supposedly God in flesh. So God sacrificed himself, to himself (but didn't actually stay dead) in order to "save us" from himself? Isn't this God supposed to be all-powerful? If so, it doesn't seem this action (if it happened) did anything at all b/c an all-powerful God cannot lack anything, and therefore by definition cannot sacrifice anything. Do you follow? If God requires a sacrifice (and I think this is an absurd idea) why would a very short three days away from earth be sufficient? The point is, if he didn't stay dead (and therefore actually lose something) then this doesn't seem to count as a real sacrifice at all.

These are the kind of questions where I would have to know God's thought processes in order to answer them.

I do not know why he picked 3 days. But, I also do not know why he picked 3 days for Jonah in the whale either. I also don't know why God is 3 persons that make up 1. Why not 5, 6, or 7, etc...?

All I know is that a lot of things in the Bible are based on the number 3. I can not tell you why God picked the number 3.

So slaughtering something innocent (i.e. - a bull, lamb, or person) somehow makes it so that we are no longer responsible for our actions? How? Would you sacrifice your son or daughter if you thought God told you to (like Abraham supposedly) and if you thought other people would forget about how you wronged them? The idea of blood sacrifice doesn't seem to have any connection whatsoever to our actions, other than just a divine dictator saying, "This is how it is", but is that kind of dictatorship moral? How can we evaluate whether or not this alleged God is actually "good" or not? In other words, how can we determine if a sacrifice is necessary?

I do not have kids, but if God told me to sacrifice one of them, I would do it. Like I said, I have no fear. God knows best. The afterlife is where my child will go, which is the end goal.

The child is also not mine. The child is God's. So it would be God asking for his own child if you really think about it. Nothing in this world is ours. it all belongs to God. God does what He thinks is necessary for His plan. I can not question the creator of everything. God was generous to create a world for us.

Right now you may be thinking, "What a sicko!" but I believe you may be missing the point. God will never ask me to do that because sacrificing is OVER. Jesus completed it. No more sacrifices. If 'God' told me to sacrifice my child, it would be a demon masquerading as God to try and fool me, and I wouldn't end up doing it anyway.

Again, I'm just trying to explain my view and thought process.

You don't think mass genocide, human sacrifice, slavery, infanticide, and rape are barbaric or evil? What could be more barbaric than those? I won't assume you have read the whole bible but many of us here (including myself) have and find those "reasons" quite wrong and irrational. Have you read the passages in 1 Samuel 15 where God supposedly commands the slaying of women and children, or Psalm 127 where God supposedly says, "Blessed is he who dashes the little babies against the stone"? In Exodus 21 God allegedly sanctions slavery (owning people as property) and in Judges 11 God condones human sacrifice. Can you think of any situation where this would be morally OK? It would seem to me that if a sacrifice is required for wrong doing then God himself needs a sacrifice for his wrong doing. I do realize this will likely get us into discussing the Euthyphro Dilemma but that's OK.

A lot of those things were because the nations refused to worship the true God. They were all worshiping false gods and disobeying God. God gave them chance after chance after chance to repent but they did not do it. They knew the punishment was coming and they didn't care.

Any reasonable parent would stick to the punishment if their children broke the rules. Otherwise, the children will do whatever they want and that's not good. When you warn your child of what happens if they disobey, and they disobey you, you have to do what's necessary and punish them. This is why a judge doesn't say to a murderer in court, "Oh you murdered someone? No big deal. Go free." The judge must stick to the punishment.

If God is evil for enacting punishment, then judges are evil for sending people to prison. The people knew the risk they were taking, disobeyed the law anyway, and have to deal with the consequences. Don't blame the cops or judge.

If Jesus was God, and was the ultimate sacrifice, why didn't he stay dead? A real "sacrifice" would require a loss, don't you think? But in this story, God didn't lose himself did he? Can God lose anything? He didn't really even die b/c his real self was (supposedly) immaterial and lived on (isn't he supposed to be eternal?). Of course, I personally don't think any of this took place at all but I think it's important to think critically about these doctrines - especially when there is so much at stake. Don't you?

It's not about jesus having to lose something. It's about jesus being the ultimate innocent sacrifice to end all sacrifices.

I am glad about this, and for what it's worth I used to believe these things too until I ran into a bunch of ex-Christian folks like us here and had to change my view to better fit with sound reasoning and intellectual honesty ;)
I look forward to your reply and thank you for joining WWGHAF.

Thank you.  :)
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Benny on October 15, 2013, 01:31:57 AM
Jesus knew he would be resurrected since the beginning of time. Imagine the agony of preparing for the sacrifice since the beginning of time. How dreadful it must have been.

Jesus also had the weight of everyone's sins so He experienced way more pain than anyone has ever had. Imagine the heavy burden Jesus had.

As to where jesus was for the 3 days, he was dead. No afterlife or anything. Just in a state of death, most likely how atheists view death.

He had six hours of torture, with the reward being the son of God forever and ever.  That wouldn't be too agonizing for me.  Of course, the six hours of torture is bad, bad news, but being the King of Kings forever and ever seems like a good tradeoff to me.  Once he died, it was basically like falling asleep for a bit, only to wake up and be ascended into heaven.

So I still don't see where the "sacrifice" comes in.  He took some temporary pain, that's all.  And he didn't even fully die--he was resurrected.  So in the end, Jesus had no net loss from this.  Maybe some scars, that's all.  So I don't see your point of Jesus being the ultimate sacrifice.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 15, 2013, 01:40:38 AM
He had six hours of torture, with the reward being the son of God forever and ever.  That wouldn't be too agonizing for me.  Of course, the six hours of torture is bad, bad news, but being the King of Kings forever and ever seems like a good tradeoff to me.  Once he died, it was basically like falling asleep for a bit, only to wake up and be ascended into heaven.

So I still don't see where the "sacrifice" comes in.  He took some temporary pain, that's all.  And he didn't even fully die--he was resurrected.  So in the end, Jesus had no net loss from this.  Maybe some scars, that's all.  So I don't see your point of Jesus being the ultimate sacrifice.

You are looking at it from a materialistic point of view. Religious things need to be seen from the spiritual point of view. This is important if you want to discuss our beliefs the right way.

It's not about the 6 hours. It's about Jesus being innocent and choosing to sacrifice Himself. He did not have to take on our sins, but He chose to. He chose to suffer in the same way his creations suffer. He loved us enough to BECOME like us. I find that extraordinarily loving.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Aspie on October 15, 2013, 02:12:32 AM
Do you understand what's being asked in terms of sacrifice? The word denotes loss, a surrendering of something prized or desirable. What did Jesus give up that he could never reclaim?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 15, 2013, 02:23:24 AM
Do you understand what's being asked in terms of sacrifice? The word denotes loss, a surrendering of something prized or desirable. What did Jesus give up that he could never reclaim?

Jesus gave up his Heavenly status in order to become human. He then went back after it was fulfilled.

The focus should be on the "innocent" part of the sacrifice, not on Jesus losing something. The fact is that Jesus was innocent and chose to do it. That is the important thing. Try to focus on the spiritual aspect of it.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Aspie on October 15, 2013, 02:48:50 AM
Jesus gave up his Heavenly status in order to become human. He then went back after it was fulfilled.

So then his Heavenly status was never actually given up - it was waiting for him when he got back.

If the sacrifice were simply becoming human why was his death necessary to take on the sins of others? Why the crucifixion when his mere existence as a human was sufficient?

Quote
The focus should be on the "innocent" part of the sacrifice, not on Jesus losing something.

But that's exactly what this thread is about: what kind of a sacrifice does not incur any kind of a permanent loss? How can we focus on a part of a sacrifice where none is evident?

Quote
The fact is that Jesus was innocent and chose to do it. That is the important thing.

This is ultimately irrelevant to the topic at hand. A sacrifice is not defined solely by one's status nor willingness.

The crucial element here is what is given up, not merely set aside.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Fiji on October 15, 2013, 03:34:07 AM
I do not see unicorns the same way as God.

I had a spiritual experience with God. I never had a spiritual experience with unicorns. Many people around the world always claim to spiritually experience God, not unicorns.

That is why I believe it is unfair to compare the two.

I have personally spoken to people who, just like you, have had spiritual experiences of Allah, (Rav)Indra, Vishnu, the Crone aspect of the Triple Goddess, Yahweh, Odin, the Buddha and Satan. So, they're all right?

Hell, if you talk to enough Wiccans and neo-druids, you'll probably come across some that HAVE had spiritual experiences of unicorns.

By your reasoning, we now must accept the existance of all of these mentioned and it is up to the Atheist to provide proof that each and every one of them does not exist ... yeah.

Also, since you are skeptical of our non-belief in your deity of choice ... are you also skeptical of your own disbelief in, say, Odin? Do you deep down know, in your heart, that Odin is real, you're just surpressing the knowledge?

I do not know why he picked 3 days. But, I also do not know why he picked 3 days for Jonah in the whale either. I also don't know why God is 3 persons that make up 1. Why not 5, 6, or 7, etc...?

All I know is that a lot of things in the Bible are based on the number 3. I can not tell you why God picked the number 3.

Since people didn't know what coma was, at the time, three days was the default time you had to wait before someone was considered dead (except, of course, if he was quite obviously not getting up from that spear to the head). No signs of life for three days ... he's dead.
It's an Ancient Hebrew custom that got used in the bible.
To show that you reallyreallyreally beat death, you had to do something, three days after being presumed dead. Well, actually getting up and walking around would do the trick, but lacking that, the next best thing is spinning a good yarn about such a thing.

I do not have kids, but if God told me to sacrifice one of them, I would do it. Like I said, I have no fear. God knows best. The afterlife is where my child will go, which is the end goal.

The child is also not mine. The child is God's. So it would be God asking for his own child if you really think about it. Nothing in this world is ours. it all belongs to God. God does what He thinks is necessary for His plan. I can not question the creator of everything. God was generous to create a world for us.

Right now you may be thinking, "What a sicko!" but I believe you may be missing the point. God will never ask me to do that because sacrificing is OVER. Jesus completed it. No more sacrifices. If 'God' told me to sacrifice my child, it would be a demon masquerading as God to try and fool me, and I wouldn't end up doing it anyway.

Again, I'm just trying to explain my view and thought process.

Your thought process seems to go along the lines of "whatever I like". The voices in your head tell you to do something. You like it => must be god, you dislike it => must be a demon.
In other words, you're engaging in SPAG[1] ... just like pretty much all theists.

A lot of those things were because the nations refused to worship the true God. They were all worshiping false gods and disobeying God. God gave them chance after chance after chance to repent but they did not do it. They knew the punishment was coming and they didn't care.

What chance did god give the firstborn of Egypt? Or the babies that got their heads smashed against the rock? Or all the babies who drowned during the flood?
Also, if they KNEW Yahweh was real, and the only god ... why not worship him?[2]
Homer, towards the end of the Homeros at least has Athena make it juuuuust unclear enough whether or not Odysseus has divine help or not. So the suitors feel they have a chance. The OT ... well, that's just lazy writing.

Any reasonable parent would stick to the punishment if their children broke the rules. Otherwise, the children will do whatever they want and that's not good. When you warn your child of what happens if they disobey, and they disobey you, you have to do what's necessary and punish them. This is why a judge doesn't say to a murderer in court, "Oh you murdered someone? No big deal. Go free." The judge must stick to the punishment.

I have yet to KILL any of my kids, you know.

If God is evil for enacting punishment, then judges are evil for sending people to prison. The people knew the risk they were taking, disobeyed the law anyway, and have to deal with the consequences. Don't blame the cops or judge.

God is evil for setting up a no win situation in the garden of Eden and then punishing every single human ever for a crime he himself engineered. And he is evil  for punishing some people FOR EVER! Absolutely no one ever deserves eternal punishment.

It's not about jesus having to lose something. It's about jesus being the ultimate innocent sacrifice to end all sacrifices.

Ultimate innocent, ok ... well, not ok, Jesus did condone slavery, after all. Sorry, not ultimately innocent.
And as several others have pointed out, there was no sacrifice. So, you statement becomes "It's about jesus being the ultimate innocent to end all sacrifices."
So ... just having Jesus exist was enough ... so ... why the torture and the three day nap? Does this god of yours get off on torture porn?

 1. Self Projection As God
 2. In the same way that the average North Korean worships Kim Jong-un
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: William on October 15, 2013, 04:27:16 AM
The prophets nor the Father pressured jesus into it.

The Prophets merely described what jesus was going to do, based on Jesus' own choice.

This assertion is contradicted by reality.  Every child is pressured to some extent by the expectations/ambitions their parents have for them - for example to be a professional, or a great artist, or to achieve something the parent could not (as in God's case.) 

I asked you what options Jesus had?  If Jesus walked away from his assignment the prophets would've been wrong and the Father would've been in his ear all day every day. God had an absolutely clear mission set out for Jesus - His only Son.  And to think that Jesus could ever do something else is unscriptural:

Quote
Matthew 26: 39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”

Jesus effectively had no choice in the matter.

An innocent sacrifice must be made as redemption for sins.
Why?  It's stupid.  Why not at least sacrifice the guilty?  Or make the guilty pay?
It is unjust and unethical that an innocent "must" pay the price for another's sins.

Something clean needs to be used to redeem the dirty.
The dirty can not redeem the dirty.
This is bizarre contorted thinking. What happened to saying "sorry"? Repaying one's own debt? Being accountable for one's own actions?

The concept of vicarious redemption through human sacrifice is vile and immoral. No person of courage and integrity can accept it without becoming a slave to constant regret and guilt.

If any reasonable human being had known what was going on they would have acted to prevent the whole repugnant affair.  But the full purpose of the deed only became clear later - when it was too late for moral people to protest about it. 

So effectively we were duped into accepting a hideous sacrifice (enslaving us to guilt) on our behalf when we were not even there ourselves to negotiate alternatives.  I cannot accept this and will never respect a God who works like this - one who denies me a moral choice.

My outrage at this vile idea overflows onto Christians who lack the moral fibre to see what's wrong with substitutionary atonement, and want me to believe it too, to pull me down to their level of obsequious fear.  Luckily it's all fiction or I'd get really angry.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: William on October 15, 2013, 08:37:16 AM
Jesus knew he would be resurrected since the beginning of time. Imagine the agony of preparing for the sacrifice since the beginning of time. How dreadful it must have been.

Jesus also had the weight of everyone's sins so He experienced way more pain than anyone has ever had. Imagine the heavy burden Jesus had.
(my bold)

There it is.  The "suffering" card played right in front of our eyes.  The guilt-trip nobody asked for &) but to which the fearful joyously submit.

How the heck did Jesus know about this required sacrifice from the beginning of time? He was only conceived about 2000 years ago and supposedly lived for 33 years (BTW equipped with magic that could've easily reduced his own suffering before getting fully upgraded super-powers).  Before Jesus came into existence God was doing His own thing trying various bully tactics to sort out the shit on earth - drowning people in the flood, bombing them with fire, turning people into salt, demanding blood sacrifices, inventing commandments, orchestrating wars, instructing rape and pillage.  The whole idea of using Jesus' apparent suffering to mentally enslave humans was a very late development in God's game plan.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: screwtape on October 15, 2013, 08:44:19 AM
Hey guys, I'm a Christian and hope to discuss things with you. My username means that I am skeptical of non-belief. It's kind of a "reverse" of the normal use for skeptic. 

yeah.  Kind of like being ignorant is the reverse of being knowledgeable.

With that said, I would like to say that Jesus' sacrifice was important because He willingly did it.

? Why is that the important part?  Would we not have been saved had he been forced to it?  Sin would have been paid for either way, no?

Jesus showed that he conquered death. Everybody dies, but Jesus was an exception. That's what made it so extraordinary.

but he was allegedly god, thus immortal.  So not really that extraordinary and not particularly exceptional for a god. 

In the Old Testament, blood of an innocent lamb was used on the door's of the Hebrews. This represented how an innocent animal must be sacrificed to atone for sins.

Does that not sound primitive and barbaric?  What kind of god works that way?

Also, was the "innocent" lamb willing or was it forced? 

This was foreshadowing the New testament where jesus is the innocent lamb and used as a final sacrifice for all.

So someone else died to pay for your transgressions.  You do the crime, someone else does the time. Does that really strike you as justice?  How do you feel about that, ethically?

That's why animal sacrifices are not needed anymore.

No, not according to the jews.  Animals are not sacrificed any more because the temple was destroyed.[1]


I know a lot of people think of the OT as "Evil" and "barbaric" but it is not.

?  So says you.  It is clearly barbaric.  It portrays barbaric characters with barbaric ethics doing barbaric things.  Explain how it is not barbaric.  Otherwise this conversation becomes "nu-uh" "yuh-huh" back and forth.

There are reasons God does what he does.

Says you.  What are the reasons and how do you know?  What makes those reasons non-barbaric?


Blood spread o the door was not evil and barbaric.

It is certainly disgusting and barbaric.  Explain how it was not.

It symbolized the coming of Jesus' sacrifice in the New Testament.

Does not make it not barbaric.


I'm not here to preach, just to explain my point of view. I will not just be quoting the Bible mindlessly.

Excellent.  Be prepared to be challenged and explain and support your assertions.




All I know is that a lot of things in the Bible are based on the number 3. I can not tell you why God picked the number 3.

Because jews were superstitious and into numerology.  They though numbers has magical meanings.

Quote
I do not have kids, but if God told me to sacrifice one of them, I would do it.

Pardon me if this sounds harsh, but you are either a fucking monster or criminally insane.  You should be locked up and prevented from being around any children.  I strongly urge you to call your local police and confess your murderous inclinations for the sake of everyone around you.


Quote
Right now you may be thinking, "What a sicko!" but I believe you may be missing the point.

Yes, I am thinking that, but no, I am not missing the point.  I believe you are missing the point.

Quote
God will never ask me to do that because sacrificing is OVER. Jesus completed it. No more sacrifices. If 'God' told me to sacrifice my child, it would be a demon masquerading as God to try and fool me, and I wouldn't end up doing it anyway.

I have a couple of thoughts.  The first is, you were only talking shit when you said you'd kill your kids.  You were saying what badass, cold-blooded faith you had and how you would gladly murder children for god.  But you don't have kids. So you don't know what they would mean to you.  And only did that because you thought god would never call your bluff.  So, you're just a loud mouth who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.  A poser for jesus.

Second, you are trying to put god in a box.  God is not constrained by what you think he wants.  Neither is he constrained by what he told some people 2000 years ago. yhwh has never respected any deal.  Remember Job?  yhwh had a deal to protect him and make him prosper in exchange for Job's loyalty.  Instead, yhwh let an angel inflict horrible suffering on him, breaking the deal, but still demanded Job's loyalty.

If god wanted you to kill some kids, he would tell you to kill some kids.  It wouldn't be the first time he did that.  Your problem is you have no way to know whether it was yhwh, the devil, Loki or a halucination.  How could you tell the difference?

Quote
Again, I'm just trying to explain my view and thought process.

Suffice it to say, I think your views and thought processes are... misguided at best. 

Quote
A lot of those things were because the nations refused to worship the true God. They were all worshiping false gods and disobeying God. God gave them chance after chance after chance to repent but they did not do it. They knew the punishment was coming and they didn't care.

You are making our case for us.

Quote
Any reasonable parent would stick to the punishment if their children broke the rules. Otherwise, the children will do whatever they want and that's not good.

Parents punish children so they learn and change their behavior.  What does a person learn by being executed?  How does that positively change their behavior?

 


Jesus gave up his Heavenly status in order to become human. He then went back after it was fulfilled.

So it wasn't a sacrifice.  If you give up something for five minutes, it's not really a sacrifice.  You keep focusing on the innocence part, and missing the whole sacrifice part.  It was no sacrifice if nothing was lost.  He was god before and god afterward, with an uncomfortable weekend in between.

 1. http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2091/why-do-jews-no-longer-sacrifice-animals (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2091/why-do-jews-no-longer-sacrifice-animals)
http://www.jewfaq.org/qorbanot.htm (http://www.jewfaq.org/qorbanot.htm)
http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/8862/why-dont-jews-sacrifice-animals-anymore (http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/8862/why-dont-jews-sacrifice-animals-anymore)
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Anfauglir on October 15, 2013, 09:04:16 AM
Jesus knew he would be resurrected since the beginning of time. Imagine the agony of preparing for the sacrifice since the beginning of time. How dreadful it must have been.
 
(my bold)

How the heck did Jesus know about this required sacrifice from the beginning of time? He was only conceived about 2000 years ago and supposedly lived for 33 years (BTW equipped with magic that could've easily reduced his own suffering before getting fully upgraded super-powers).  Before Jesus came into existence God was doing His own thing trying various bully tactics to sort out the shit on earth....

No, see William, Jesus was part of god since the beginning, so in his omniscience he knew right from the beginning that his sacrifice would have been necessary.  Which means that before man was created, Yahweh knew they would fail, Yahweh knew the flood would not work, knew at every intervention he made in the world that it would fail, so.......

Um.

Sorry, I think my apologetics just failed.  If (as 54768 claims) "Jesus knew he would be resurrected since the beginning of time", then Jesus/god knew before mankind was created that a sacrifice would be necessary.  Knew before Adam, before Eden, before the serpent, that mankind would fall.

And, knowing that, Yahweh created things anyway.  KNOWING that creating the serpent would lead to mankind's fall, Yahweh created it and allowed it into the garden.

Tell me again why I should feel gratitude for the "sacrifice" that was required to make up for the mistakes Yahweh made even though he knew exactly what the results would be?  You make a mistake, you correct it - nobody should feel indebted to them for clearing up their own mess.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: neopagan on October 15, 2013, 09:39:56 AM
It seems like a fairly simple choice:
 
  Dead jeezus = sacrifice
  Live jeezus = no sacrifice

Pick one, because they are not mutually exclusive (don't agree? ask the lamb - or Isaac, in your examples)
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Mrjason on October 15, 2013, 09:41:41 AM
It seems like a fairly simple choice:
 
  Dead jeezus = sacrifice
  Live jeezus = no sacrifice

Pick one, because they are not mutually exclusive (don't agree? ask the lamb - or Isaac, in your examples)

does that mean we were only redeemed for 3 days?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 15, 2013, 10:01:13 AM
I have personally spoken to people who, just like you, have had spiritual experiences of Allah, (Rav)Indra, Vishnu, the Crone aspect of the Triple Goddess, Yahweh, Odin, the Buddha and Satan. So, they're all right?

Hell, if you talk to enough Wiccans and neo-druids, you'll probably come across some that HAVE had spiritual experiences of unicorns.

By your reasoning, we now must accept the existance of all of these mentioned and it is up to the Atheist to provide proof that each and every one of them does not exist ... yeah.

Also, since you are skeptical of our non-belief in your deity of choice ... are you also skeptical of your own disbelief in, say, Odin? Do you deep down know, in your heart, that Odin is real, you're just surpressing the knowledge?

The fact of the matter is that those people did have spiritual experiences. The problem is that Satan and his demons disguise themselves as false gods to try and trick people into worshiping them. The Bible makes it clear about this. We have to be able to recognize the false religions created by Satan and his demons.

Odin is just a demon disguised as God. All these false gods are real. They are not fiction.

Since people didn't know what coma was, at the time, three days was the default time you had to wait before someone was considered dead (except, of course, if he was quite obviously not getting up from that spear to the head). No signs of life for three days ... he's dead.
It's an Ancient Hebrew custom that got used in the bible.
To show that you reallyreallyreally beat death, you had to do something, three days after being presumed dead. Well, actually getting up and walking around would do the trick, but lacking that, the next best thing is spinning a good yarn about such a thing.

I see.



Your thought process seems to go along the lines of "whatever I like". The voices in your head tell you to do something. You like it => must be god, you dislike it => must be a demon.
In other words, you're engaging in SPAG[1] ... just like pretty much all theists.
 1. Self Projection As God

No, that is not it at all. I explained that Jesus' sacrifice was final and the end of all sacrifices. This is how I know God will never ask me to sacrifice a child. If God does ask, it's a demon trying to trick me and test my faith. Someone who didn't have strong faith may fall for it and sacrifice their child. But, I have strong faith. If I was alive in the OT times and God asked me to, I would do it. How can I turn down the creator?

It's not just based on "my thoughts." It's based on studying the Bible and understanding it.

What chance did god give the firstborn of Egypt? Or the babies that got their heads smashed against the rock? Or all the babies who drowned during the flood?
Also, if they KNEW Yahweh was real, and the only god ... why not worship him?[2]
Homer, towards the end of the Homeros at least has Athena make it juuuuust unclear enough whether or not Odysseus has divine help or not. So the suitors feel they have a chance. The OT ... well, that's just lazy writing.
 2. In the same way that the average North Korean worships Kim Jong-un

The firstborn were killed by God because Pharaoh killed the firstborn males of the Hebrews. What should God have done about that? Just shrug it off and laugh? Reward Pharaoh? OT times were blood for blood, tooth for tooth.

Even today imagine if someone witnessed their own baby murdered right in front of them by someone. I can't even imagine what they would do in retaliation.

I have yet to KILL any of my kids, you know.

Yes, because you are not God. We are God's creations. He gave us life and He can take it away. EVERYONE dies. Is God evil for allowing every single person to die? Or is there some cutoff age where God is evil for allowing them to die up til they reach a certain age? If God allows someone to die at 17, is that evil? But is it evil for someone to die at 25? 37? 54? 66?

God is evil for setting up a no win situation in the garden of Eden and then punishing every single human ever for a crime he himself engineered. And he is evil  for punishing some people FOR EVER! Absolutely no one ever deserves eternal punishment.

Nobody deserves eternal punishment. That is why all you have to do to get out of it is to accept Jesus as your Savior and allow him to change your life. It's the simplest thing a person can do.

In the same way, nobody deserves to go to prison. it's a horrible place. But, all you have to do to get out of it is to obey the law and not commit crimes. If people do these things, they will go to prison. The judge would be foolish to allow criminals to get away with no punishment. This is why many people are still outraged about OJ. They feel he got away with it.

What kind of God would God be if he allowed sin to go unpunished?
What kind of judge would a judge be if he allowed crimes to go unpunished?

Ultimate innocent, ok ... well, not ok, Jesus did condone slavery, after all. Sorry, not ultimately innocent.
And as several others have pointed out, there was no sacrifice. So, you statement becomes "It's about jesus being the ultimate innocent to end all sacrifices."
So ... just having Jesus exist was enough ... so ... why the torture and the three day nap? Does this god of yours get off on torture porn?

A man was brutally beaten and tortured for my sins and yours.
The gift from Jesus is eternal life though Him. Salvation is not earned, it is given to us as a gift. We just have to accept it. If we do not accept Jesus' free gift, then God will not force us to accept it. Just like if you gave someone a free gift and they took it out of your hands and threw it in a dumpster and walked away.

You still have to ACCEPT the gift. If you throw it away, that is on you. I can only tell people my viewpoint. I can not force them to accept my viewpoint.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: neopagan on October 15, 2013, 10:19:07 AM
It seems like a fairly simple choice:
 
  Dead jeezus = sacrifice
  Live jeezus = no sacrifice

Pick one, because they are not mutually exclusive (don't agree? ask the lamb - or Isaac, in your examples)

does that mean we were only redeemed for 3 days?

I guess so... So much for that "perfect sacrifice" BS. 
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 15, 2013, 10:20:27 AM
Why is that the important part?  Would we not have been saved had he been forced to it?  Sin would have been paid for either way, no?

It would not have been as important. This is why God needed a willing sacrifice.

but he was allegedly god, thus immortal.  So not really that extraordinary and not particularly exceptional for a god. 

What is extraordinary to God? nothing. To us, it is extraordinary though. God creating the whole world is nothing to Him, but amazing to us. All these things are for us.

Does that not sound primitive and barbaric?  What kind of god works that way?

God has His ways of doing things. The lamb's blood symbolized Jesus and foreshadowed Him. You just view it as blood smeared on a door. But, we view it as a symbolic reference to Jesus.

Also, was the "innocent" lamb willing or was it forced? 

Animals are sacrificed as innocent but since they can not give consent to be sacrificed, they are just innocent. Remember that the flesh smell is pleasing to the Lord, much in the same way if someone is having a BBQ, some people get a nice whiff of the grill and love the smell of it. This isn't surprising considering we are made in God's image. God gave us the animals for food and the smell is pleasing to us too.

So someone else died to pay for your transgressions.  You do the crime, someone else does the time. Does that really strike you as justice?  How do you feel about that, ethically?

Yes, what is the alternative? How will you prove yourself worthy of heaven? If God said, "Just be a good person and do good deeds and HOPE you did enough to make it in", it would be foolish. People would be scramblign wondering if they did enough good deeds.

Someone else taking the punishment for you and you just accepting it is the simplest way.

No, not according to the jews.  Animals are not sacrificed any more because the temple was destroyed.[1]
 1. http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2091/why-do-jews-no-longer-sacrifice-animals (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2091/why-do-jews-no-longer-sacrifice-animals)
http://www.jewfaq.org/qorbanot.htm (http://www.jewfaq.org/qorbanot.htm)
http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/8862/why-dont-jews-sacrifice-animals-anymore (http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/8862/why-dont-jews-sacrifice-animals-anymore)

Yes, the Jews reject Jesus, much as most of the world. This was predicted. "Narrow is the gate to Jesus." He didn't say, "Wide is the gate."
?  So says you.  It is clearly barbaric.  It portrays barbaric characters with barbaric ethics doing barbaric things.  Explain how it is not barbaric.  Otherwise this conversation becomes "nu-uh" "yuh-huh" back and forth.

The OT rules were ahead of the other cultures for the times.










Pardon me if this sounds harsh, but you are either a fucking monster or criminally insane.  You should be locked up and prevented from being around any children.  I strongly urge you to call your local police and confess your murderous inclinations for the sake of everyone around you.

I love children. Would never sacrifice one. Sacrificing times are over.

I have a couple of thoughts.  The first is, you were only talking shit when you said you'd kill your kids.  You were saying what badass, cold-blooded faith you had and how you would gladly murder children for god.  But you don't have kids. So you don't know what they would mean to you.  And only did that because you thought god would never call your bluff.  So, you're just a loud mouth who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.  A poser for jesus.

Not true. I'm just going by what the Bible says. Bible says the sacrifices were finished with Jesus. I didn't make that up and put it in the Bible.

Second, you are trying to put god in a box.  God is not constrained by what you think he wants.  Neither is he constrained by what he told some people 2000 years ago. yhwh has never respected any deal.  Remember Job?  yhwh had a deal to protect him and make him prosper in exchange for Job's loyalty.  Instead, yhwh let an angel inflict horrible suffering on him, breaking the deal, but still demanded Job's loyalty.

Should we accept the good form God but not the bad? Anyone can praise God when their life is going great and curse Him when their life is bad. To stick with God through it all makes you grow spiritually as a person.

If god wanted you to kill some kids, he would tell you to kill some kids.  It wouldn't be the first time he did that.  Your problem is you have no way to know whether it was yhwh, the devil, Loki or a halucination.  How could you tell the difference?

Because sacrificing is over. That's how I know. If someone told me to do it, it would be a demonic influence and Christians don't pay attention to demons.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Astreja on October 15, 2013, 10:20:56 AM
Odin is just a demon disguised as God.

(Springy G reaches for Her Clue-By-Four™)

*BONK*  Don't dis My Dad.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: neopagan on October 15, 2013, 10:29:00 AM
No, that is not it at all. I explained that Jesus' sacrifice was final and the end of all sacrifices. This is how I know God will never ask me to sacrifice a child. If God does ask, it's a demon trying to trick me and test my faith. Someone who didn't have strong faith may fall for it and sacrifice their child. But, I have strong faith. If I was alive in the OT times and God asked me to, I would do it. How can I turn down the creator?

It's not just based on "my thoughts." It's based on studying the Bible and understanding it.

So, was Jephthah listening to a demon in Judges 11?  OR... lemme guess... Jepthah decided to do all that on his own - yet, YHWH honored J's vow and sat on his thumbs when his daughter came on the scene (unlike ramming his way in for a rescue with Abraham and Isaac)

Quote
What kind of God would God be if he allowed sin to go unpunished?
What kind of judge would a judge be if he allowed crimes to go unpunished?

So much for all that turn the other cheek nonsense junior preached... good for us but not for god?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: jdawg70 on October 15, 2013, 10:35:22 AM
The fact of the matter is that those people did have spiritual experiences. The problem is that Satan and his demons disguise themselves as false gods to try and trick people into worshiping them. The Bible makes it clear about this. We have to be able to recognize the false religions created by Satan and his demons.

Odin is just a demon disguised as God. All these false gods are real. They are not fiction.
Well that's a new one to me.
Quote
No, that is not it at all. I explained that Jesus' sacrifice was final and the end of all sacrifices. This is how I know God will never ask me to sacrifice a child. If God does ask, it's a demon trying to trick me and test my faith. Someone who didn't have strong faith may fall for it and sacrifice their child. But, I have strong faith. If I was alive in the OT times and God asked me to, I would do it. How can I turn down the creator?

It's not just based on "my thoughts." It's based on studying the Bible and understanding it.
Could you better explain 'strong faith'?  I guess I'm not clear what having 'more' faith and 'less' faith means in this context.

But furthermore - how can you turn down your creator?  Simple - you say 'no, god, that is cruel and immoral to murder an innocent child.  I will not be a monster'.  And you take your punishment from the master of the universe, comforted by the fact that you willingly accepted punishment in exchange for being a good and moral person.  You're telling me you'd be unwilling to sacrifice yourself for the life of your child?

On top of that - how would you know it wasn't a demon disguised as god asking you to do that?  Did demons not exist back then?  Did they not try to trick people back then?
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The firstborn were killed by God because Pharaoh killed the firstborn males of the Hebrews. What should God have done about that? Just shrug it off and laugh? Reward Pharaoh? OT times were blood for blood, tooth for tooth.
Oh, I dunno, maybe punish the guilty party who would stand a chance to understand the wrongs they committed instead of murdering innocent babies that had nothing to do with the transgression?
Quote
Even today imagine if someone witnessed their own baby murdered right in front of them by someone. I can't even imagine what they would do in retaliation.
You probably would be able to easily empathize if they retaliated by murdering the person who murdered their baby.  You'd probably have a fit if they turned around and murdered other innocent babies that had nothing to do with murdering the first baby.

You've got a pretty screwed up moral compass.
Quote
Nobody deserves eternal punishment. That is why all you have to do to get out of it is to accept Jesus as your Savior and allow him to change your life. It's the simplest thing a person can do.

In the same way, nobody deserves to go to prison. it's a horrible place. But, all you have to do to get out of it is to obey the law and not commit crimes. If people do these things, they will go to prison. The judge would be foolish to allow criminals to get away with no punishment. This is why many people are still outraged about OJ. They feel he got away with it.

What kind of God would God be if he allowed sin to go unpunished?
What kind of judge would a judge be if he allowed crimes to go unpunished?
You know, ideally at least, we don't throw people in jail just for the sake of punishing them.  The intent is to prevent them from doing further harm and to potentially rehabilitate that person so that they do not do harm in the future.  You seem to think that justice is about re-balancing universal karma or something - as if it doesn't matter who is being punished, as long as someone is getting hurt it is making up for some transgression.

You have a screwed up moral compass.
Quote
A man was brutally beaten and tortured for my sins and yours.
The gift from Jesus is eternal life though Him. Salvation is not earned, it is given to us as a gift. We just have to accept it. If we do not accept Jesus' free gift, then God will not force us to accept it. Just like if you gave someone a free gift and they took it out of your hands and threw it in a dumpster and walked away.

You still have to ACCEPT the gift. If you throw it away, that is on you. I can only tell people my viewpoint. I can not force them to accept my viewpoint.
How do you know this 'gift' isn't a demon disguised as god trying to get you to feel morally right when doing the most heinous of atrocities under the pretense of being granted eternal life?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: jdawg70 on October 15, 2013, 10:52:13 AM
Not true. I'm just going by what the Bible says. Bible says the sacrifices were finished with Jesus. I didn't make that up and put it in the Bible.
Could you (or anyone else) point out where that is in the bible?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Mrjason on October 15, 2013, 10:55:34 AM
Not true. I'm just going by what the Bible says. Bible says the sacrifices were finished with Jesus. I didn't make that up and put it in the Bible.
Could you (or anyone else) point out where that is in the bible?

Isn't this supposed to say it - Hebrews 10:1-18
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 15, 2013, 10:57:52 AM
I do not see unicorns the same way as God.

I had a spiritual experience with God. I never had a spiritual experience with unicorns. Many people around the world always claim to spiritually experience God, not unicorns.

That is why I believe it is unfair to compare the two.

The amount of people believing a given proposition (gods, fairies, racism, slavery, etc) is not any indication that such beliefs are true. Furthermore, the content of a belief itself is not a justification for being "skeptical of non-belief" - b/c we could that same logic for other nonsensical things (such as astrology). Millions of people across the world believe astrology. Would it make sense then for someone to approach you and say, "I'm skeptical of non-belief in astrology"? Again, this reasoning process, and this method of language, is flawed and inaccurate. The better and more honest approach to just to say you believe in X and go about discussing it (especially since the subject of religion, like the subject of astrology, is often controversial and highly debated).

These are the kind of questions where I would have to know God's thought processes in order to answer them.

I do not know why he picked 3 days. But, I also do not know why he picked 3 days for Jonah in the whale either. I also don't know why God is 3 persons that make up 1. Why not 5, 6, or 7, etc...?

All I know is that a lot of things in the Bible are based on the number 3. I can not tell you why God picked the number 3.

This is an honest answer, and I do appreciate it. Do you think that the God you believe in (from the bible) can violate the laws of logic? For example, according to your theology, can God violate his own nature, make a square circle, or tell lies?

I do not have kids, but if God told me to sacrifice one of them, I would do it. Like I said, I have no fear. God knows best. The afterlife is where my child will go, which is the end goal.

The child is also not mine. The child is God's. So it would be God asking for his own child if you really think about it. Nothing in this world is ours. it all belongs to God. God does what He thinks is necessary for His plan. I can not question the creator of everything. God was generous to create a world for us.

Right now you may be thinking, "What a sicko!" but I believe you may be missing the point. God will never ask me to do that because sacrificing is OVER. Jesus completed it. No more sacrifices. If 'God' told me to sacrifice my child, it would be a demon masquerading as God to try and fool me, and I wouldn't end up doing it anyway.

Again, I'm just trying to explain my view and thought process.

This response actually brings us back, for a moment, to the question I asked in the latter half of my previous response above. How do you determine whether the 'God' you believe in is good or not? In other ways, what method do you use to go about making that judgment? Also, btw, are you familiar with the Euthyphro dilemma?

A lot of those things were because the nations refused to worship the true God. They were all worshiping false gods and disobeying God. God gave them chance after chance after chance to repent but they did not do it. They knew the punishment was coming and they didn't care.

Any reasonable parent would stick to the punishment if their children broke the rules. Otherwise, the children will do whatever they want and that's not good. When you warn your child of what happens if they disobey, and they disobey you, you have to do what's necessary and punish them. This is why a judge doesn't say to a murderer in court, "Oh you murdered someone? No big deal. Go free." The judge must stick to the punishment.

If God is evil for enacting punishment, then judges are evil for sending people to prison. The people knew the risk they were taking, disobeyed the law anyway, and have to deal with the consequences. Don't blame the cops or judge.

For you then, is God just a big dictator (aka -a mafia boss) who can violate his own laws/rules? We are talking about small children and infants, and the bible clearly states some pretty horrific things about the God you believe in (pertaining to what he supposedly commanded). In Hosea, we find God (again allegedly, b/c I don't think these things were commanded by a God at all) commanding unborn children to be cut open and ripped from their mother's wombs. Is this moral? Can you think of any circumstance in your life, at all, where it would be justified to cut open a pregnant woman, rip out her unborn baby, and run it through with a sword? That's a pretty horrific picture, isn't it? In 2 Kings, God allegedly sends two bears to maul (tear apart) some small children for merely making fun of Elijah's baldness. Is this justified in your mind? 

If, for you, God is just a big dictator and no matter how many heinous or vile acts he commands of you, you must do, how then can you determine whether this God is actually good? By what standard do you use to measure whether or not his actions/commands are good? As it seems God could then change what is considered good at anytime and you have to follow.

It's not about jesus having to lose something. It's about jesus being the ultimate innocent sacrifice to end all sacrifices.

But this is my point. A sacrifice requires a loss. That is why it is called a sacrifice. Otherwise, it has no power to do anything, especially since we did not agree to it's terms or conditions from the start. Perhaps more importantly though (I asked this earlier), how is it that a God who is allegedly all-powerful (sacrificing himself, to himself) can do anything to take away a person's moral responsibility to another person by merely killing something and then bringing it back to life? An all-powerful God could do anything, including just forgiving everyone, not hiding by being invisible, opening communicating to all, etc.

Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: jdawg70 on October 15, 2013, 11:15:55 AM
Could you (or anyone else) point out where that is in the bible?
Isn't this supposed to say it - Hebrews 10:1-18
Thanks!

Translations I looked at:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+10%3A1-18&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+10%3A1-18&version=ESV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+10%3A1-18&version=NKJV

skeptic54768 -

I'm uncertain if these are the passages that you're referring to, but if they are, then I don't think you can say that all sacrifices were finished with Jesus.  It seems to indicate that sacrificing for the atonement of sins is all done with, but not as a general case.  Basically, I'm not seeing anything here that clearly states that god will never again ask for a sacrifice as a test of faith (a la Abraham).

Did you have a different passage and/or translation in mind, or am I failing to understand this one?

As a bit of an aside, these passages also seem to indicate that Jesus did not sacrifice himself under his own will.  He was explicitly deferring to god's will.  It almost seems like he was doing it, not as a sacrifice for all of us, but for god and god alone.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: One Above All on October 15, 2013, 11:20:48 AM
Odin is just a demon disguised as God.

(Springy G reaches for Her Clue-By-Four™)

*BONK*  Don't dis My Dad.

And My creation (sort of; my book will explain more).
You see, skeptic54768, we have (at least) three gods on this forum. You have Astreja, Odin and Myself, the One Above All.[bn]By alphabetical order, rather than order of importance.[/nb] I dare you to prove any one of Us is a false god.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 15, 2013, 11:24:11 AM
You know, ideally at least, we don't throw people in jail just for the sake of punishing them.  The intent is to prevent them from doing further harm and to potentially rehabilitate that person so that they do not do harm in the future.  You seem to think that justice is about re-balancing universal karma or something - as if it doesn't matter who is being punished, as long as someone is getting hurt it is making up for some transgression.

You have a screwed up moral compass.

No. Sometimes we put people in prison for life with no possibility of getting out. How is that rehabilitation? No matter how sorry the person is, they won't get out. The judge could say, "All these laws are stupid. Let's just make everything legal," but people would be in an uproar. They'd be saying how the judge needs to enact punishment on the criminals.

This is the same way with God. God needs to enact judgment on the evildoers. If he allowed sin to go unpunished, there would be no point to anything.

How do you know this 'gift' isn't a demon disguised as god trying to get you to feel morally right when doing the most heinous of atrocities under the pretense of being granted eternal life?

Because Yahweh is the One True God. He demonstrated this by upstaging all the false gods that people worshiped. He was more powerful than them because they were just demons. Tell me what you think God should do when people are worshiping demons...just let it go unpunished like a judge with criminals?

Demons are tricky. Eve after Pharoah saw God's great power, he still refused it. He still wanted his false gods because demons give you whatever you want. God doesn't do that. God is fair.

It's very easy to slip into materialism and want everything for yourself. This is why a lot of the false religions are very popular with people. Demons promise you everything because they want to be worshiped.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: One Above All on October 15, 2013, 11:29:24 AM
Nevermind.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 15, 2013, 11:30:39 AM
If you guys can view things in a spiritual light instead of a materialistic light, it might make more sense to you.

Since you guys view death as the end, you think it's cruel to kill a baby (even though abortion is legal but that's another topic.)

But in a spiritual sense, death is NOT THE END! The afterlife is infinitely more important than Earth life. A child dying and going to Heaven is the best thing that can happen for them. it is the best thing that can happen for anyone. That is why I say that I have no fear.

Death is not something to be feared, but accepted and embraced. I will gladly die for my faith than sell out and lie about my faith in Jesus in order to live more materialistic existence.

There is nothing to fear when God is in your life. Nobody's treatment of you can bring you down. The ones who do bad things to you are the ones who need God's love the most. If somebody had me at gunpoint, I would be preaching the love of God to them until they pulled the trigger. I would not be cursing them.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: screwtape on October 15, 2013, 11:32:08 AM

It would not have been as important. This is why God needed a willing sacrifice.

That does not explain anything.

What is extraordinary to God? nothing. To us, it is extraordinary though. God creating the whole world is nothing to Him, but amazing to us.

That does not explain your perspective nor refute my pont.

God has His ways of doing things.

That does not explain anything.

The lamb's blood symbolized Jesus and foreshadowed Him. You just view it as blood smeared on a door. But, we view it as a symbolic reference to Jesus.

That does not explain your perspective nor refute my point.  I apologize if this sounds repetitive.  I think you need to do a better job understanding your own position and then articulating it.  It sounds to me like you are just repeating things you have been told and accepted uncritically.  You do not even seem to understand the objections presented.

Animals are sacrificed as innocent but since they can not give consent to be sacrificed, they are just innocent.

So why was jesus' compliance required?  If consent is not required to remove sin in animal sacrifices, it should not be required by human sacrifices. 


Remember that the flesh smell is pleasing to the Lord, much in the same way if someone is having a BBQ, some people get a nice whiff of the grill and love the smell of it. This isn't surprising considering we are made in God's image. God gave us the animals for food and the smell is pleasing to us too.

That's one way to look at it.  Kind of a self-aggrandizing, egotistical way.  "Whee, lookit us!  We're just like god!" 

Another way might be to consider that you have it backwards.  God likes burning flesh because we like a BBQ, and he is made in our image.  In "biblical" times pretty much all gods liked the smell of burning flesh.  It is a primitive idea. 

Also, you seem to misunderstand "image".  First of all, the phrase is literally transcribed as "Let us make a man in our image".[1]  Plural, because the early hebrews were polytheists, and yhwh was just one of their gods. Secondly, image does not mean a clone.  If we were made in yhwh's image, then it meant we look like him.  From Strong's:
Quote
I.image
  A.images (of tumours, mice, heathen gods)
  B.image, likeness (of resemblance)
  C.mere, empty, image, semblance (fig.)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H6754&t=KJV

None of those imply anything other than a visual similarity.


Yes, what is the alternative?

Seriously?  How about you take responsibility for yourself?  If someone close to you was killed and the police executed some random person whom they and you both know did not commit the crime, would you really consider that to be justice?  Or if you were the random guy executed for someone else's crime?

If God said, "Just be a good person and do good deeds and HOPE you did enough to make it in", it would be foolish.

How is that any different?  How is the current scenario any less foolish?


Someone else taking the punishment for you and you just accepting it is the simplest way.

It is an ethical free lunch and definitely not justice.  You should be appalled just typing those words.

Yes, the Jews reject Jesus, much as most of the world. This was predicted. "Narrow is the gate to Jesus." He didn't say, "Wide is the gate."

That missed the point.  Answers a question that was not asked. Please focus.


The OT rules were ahead of the other cultures for the times.

No, actually, they weren't.  And you need to back up your statements with facts.  What cultures were behind, in what way and on what evidence do you base this claim?



I love children. Would never sacrifice one.

So when you said you would sacrifice your child you were not being truthful?  Which is it?

Not true. I'm just going by what the Bible says. Bible says the sacrifices were finished with Jesus. I didn't make that up and put it in the Bible.

This does not refute my point at all.  You are a poser who boasted that you would kill your children if god asked, but you then say you know god would never ask.  So what would be the point or risk in making that boast in the first place?

Second, you are trying to put god in a box.  God is not constrained by what you think he wants.  Neither is he constrained by what he told some people 2000 years ago. yhwh has never respected any deal.  Remember Job?  yhwh had a deal to protect him and make him prosper in exchange for Job's loyalty.  Instead, yhwh let an angel inflict horrible suffering on him, breaking the deal, but still demanded Job's loyalty.

Should we accept the good form God but not the bad? Anyone can praise God when their life is going great and curse Him when their life is bad. To stick with God through it all makes you grow spiritually as a person.

This does not refute my point.  You seem confused and unable to directly answer any of my questions or points.  You said god doesn't do sacrifices any more.  Not only is that irrelevant - god could still demand you murder your children as a test of faith, not a sacrifice - but it is wrong.  You assuming god would not ask you to murder your own children is a bad assumption.  God can and has gone back on his word and he has demanded people murder children.   

Because sacrificing is over. That's how I know. If someone told me to do it, it would be a demonic influence and Christians don't pay attention to demons.

Who said it has to be done as a sacrifice?  Just because you don't like the message does not mean it is from a demon.  yhwh has made all kinds of unsavory demands of people.  You are giving yourself an out.


You have pretty irrevokably convinced me you are some kind of sociopath.
 1. http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=1&v=26&t=KJV#s=t_conc_1026 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=1&v=26&t=KJV#s=t_conc_1026)
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: One Above All on October 15, 2013, 11:32:51 AM
<snip>

There is no Heaven or Hell. I created no such thing, and I created everything in existence. Your god is a false god who promised you everything you ever wanted in return for worshiping it. By your own logic, your god is a demon.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 15, 2013, 11:36:00 AM
If you guys can view things in a spiritual light instead of a materialistic light, it might make more sense to you.

Since you guys view death as the end, you think it's cruel to kill a baby (even though abortion is legal but that's another topic.)

But in a spiritual sense, death is NOT THE END! The afterlife is infinitely more important than Earth life. A child dying and going to Heaven is the best thing that can happen for them. it is the best thing that can happen for anyone. That is why I say that I have no fear.

Death is not something to be feared, but accepted and embraced. I will gladly die for my faith than sell out and lie about my faith in Jesus in order to live more materialistic existence.

There is nothing to fear when God is in your life. Nobody's treatment of you can bring you down. The ones who do bad things to you are the ones who need God's love the most. If somebody had me at gunpoint, I would be preaching the love of God to them until they pulled the trigger. I would not be cursing them.


Many of use here used to be Christians, making similar arguments you are attempting to make here, and we later realized that those arguments are irrational (just like we notice Islam is irrational). We do not accept the bible as an authority on nearly any subject - nor do we find good reason for thinking there is a "God" or an afterlife. All the reasons we have heard are illogical. This is why I asked you earlier if you think God can contradict himself or violate his own nature.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: jdawg70 on October 15, 2013, 11:41:52 AM
No. Sometimes we put people in prison for life with no possibility of getting out. How is that rehabilitation? No matter how sorry the person is, they won't get out.
But they still get to live their lives, marginally contribute to society even, and are (ideally) prevented from causing further harm in society.  Furthermore, we, as a society, and are not omnipotent and are not omniscient.  There are some people we are simply unable rehabilitate.  I would say that the necessity of having to have someone be thrown in jail for life is a failure of our society, and we should strive to not have to do that.
Quote
The judge could say, "All these laws are stupid. Let's just make everything legal," but people would be in an uproar. They'd be saying how the judge needs to enact punishment on the criminals.

This is the same way with God. God needs to enact judgment on the evildoers. If he allowed sin to go unpunished, there would be no point to anything.
Evildoers like the innocent babies who had nothing to do with the transgression.

Again, your moral compass is screwed up.
Quote
Because Yahweh is the One True God. He demonstrated this by upstaging all the false gods that people worshiped. He was more powerful than them because they were just demons. Tell me what you think God should do when people are worshiping demons...just let it go unpunished like a judge with criminals?
What is it with you and punishment?  What do I think god should do?  Clearly and unequivocally explain to these people that these false gods are actually demons and why his path is the right path.  Alternatively, seeing as how he is more powerful than them, he could lock up the demons.

Seriously, why do you think it's OK to punish everyone except the entities responsible for a transgression?
Quote
Demons are tricky. Eve after Pharoah saw God's great power, he still refused it. He still wanted his false gods because demons give you whatever you want. God doesn't do that. God is fair.
Fair - like murdering innocent babies that had nothing to do with any transgression.

You have a screwed up moral compass.
Quote
It's very easy to slip into materialism and want everything for yourself. This is why a lot of the false religions are very popular with people. Demons promise you everything because they want to be worshiped.
You've never talked to a religious person who isn't a Christian, have you?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 15, 2013, 11:43:34 AM
FOR THE RECORD: I used to sound just like skeptic54768 when I was a Christian/Apologist online. True story.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 15, 2013, 11:45:38 AM
Seriously?  How about you take responsibility for yourself?  If someone close to you was killed and the police executed some random person whom they and you both know did not commit the crime, would you really consider that to be justice?  Or if you were the random guy executed for someone else's crime?

That can not work because no human is innocent. This is why animals were sacrificed because they can not sin. They are innocent. Since all humans sin, you can not use a human as a sacrifice. The dirty can not clean the dirty as I mentioned previously.

This is why Jesus was CLEAN. He was free from sin. A pure and perfect sacrifice.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: screwtape on October 15, 2013, 11:45:55 AM
If you guys can view things in a spiritual light instead of a materialistic light, it might make more sense to you.

Explain how to see things in a "spiritual light".  WTF does that mean?

Since you guys view death as the end, you think it's cruel to kill a baby (even though abortion is legal but that's another topic.)

Then I guess that means you think there is nothing wrong at all about killing babies (even though you want to force women to have babies who do not want them)

But in a spiritual sense, death is NOT THE END! The afterlife is infinitely more important than Earth life.

This is the most dangerous view on the planet.  I truly believe people like you should be quarrantined to an island far away from the rest of us.  Like, Antarctica.  Or at the very least, forbidden from making any kind of decisions for any other human being.


A child dying and going to Heaven is the best thing that can happen for them. it is the best thing that can happen for anyone.

So you should be high fiving abortion providers since they are doing the best thing that can happen for anyone.

I will gladly die for my faith than sell out and lie about my faith in Jesus in order to live more materialistic existence.

That's baloney.  I do not believe you in the least.

If somebody had me at gunpoint, I would be preaching the love of God to them until they pulled the trigger. I would not be cursing them.

Blah-dee blah-dee blah.  More big talk with nothing behind it.  Spare us the xian martyr fantasies. 

Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 15, 2013, 11:46:51 AM
FOR THE RECORD: I used to sound just like skeptic54768 when I was a Christian/Apologist online. True story.

I am sorry, but that does not mean anything. I used to sound like you guys when I was younger. Didn't believe in God at all. Thought it was foolish and silly.

People change their minds based on things in their lives.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 15, 2013, 11:50:17 AM
Seriously?  How about you take responsibility for yourself?  If someone close to you was killed and the police executed some random person whom they and you both know did not commit the crime, would you really consider that to be justice?  Or if you were the random guy executed for someone else's crime?

That can not work because no human is innocent. This is why animals were sacrificed because they can not sin. They are innocent. Since all humans sin, you can not use a human as a sacrifice. The dirty can not clean the dirty as I mentioned previously.

This is why Jesus was CLEAN. He was free from sin. A pure and perfect sacrifice.


You mean the "sin" that God placed within us when he supposedly "knit" us (created us) in the womb? So God created us WITH SIN, and then wants to punish us for it (knowing everything in advance), all for this "perfect plan"? An all-powerful (all-loving?) God would not need to go through all of that. But since we know that men throughout history have made up tons of false religions to control people, it makes a lot more sense under that light. I would ask you why you believe the bible as "the Word of God" but that is off topic. I will start another thread for that. 
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 15, 2013, 11:50:24 AM

Then I guess that means you think there is nothing wrong at all about killing babies (even though you want to force women to have babies who do not want them)

Killing babies is murder, which is a sin. But when it happens, we must deal with it. the baby is in Heaven. Hopefully, the murderer will repent of his ways so he can go to heaven as well. No one is beyond redemption.

This is the most dangerous view on the planet.  I truly believe people like you should be quarrantined to an island far away from the rest of us.  Like, Antarctica.  Or at the very least, forbidden from making any kind of decisions for any other human being.

No, that is bigotry. I am not calling for all atheists to be quarantined. I would never murder anyone. I treat people with respect and dignity.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 15, 2013, 11:52:09 AM
FOR THE RECORD: I used to sound just like skeptic54768 when I was a Christian/Apologist online. True story.

I am sorry, but that does not mean anything. I used to sound like you guys when I was younger. Didn't believe in God at all. Thought it was foolish and silly.

People change their minds based on things in their lives.


Really? You sounded just like us, such as using rational arguments and identifying logical fallacies, all when you were little?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 15, 2013, 11:52:44 AM
You mean the "sin" that God placed within us when he supposedly "knit" us (created us) in the womb? So God created us WITH SIN, and then wants to punish us for it (knowing everything in advance), all for this "perfect plan"? An all-powerful (all-loving?) God would not need to go through all of that. But since we know that men throughout history have made up tons of false religions to control people, it makes a lot more sense under that light. I would ask you why you believe the bible as "the Word of God" but that is off topic. I will start another thread for that.

God didn't create anyone with sin. He gave us a choice. We didn't listen. Every day people choose to sin.

Parent tells their child, "no cookies before dinner." The child eats a cookie and gets punished. Blame the parent for making up the rule or the child for not listening?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: One Above All on October 15, 2013, 11:55:06 AM
Parent tells their child, "no cookies before dinner." The child eats a cookie and gets punished. Blame the parent for making up the rule or the child for not listening?

If the parent was omnipotent and omniscient and wanted to send the child to a place where they would be tortured for all eternity for disobeying one single order without any explanation as to why it was bad? Blame the parent.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 15, 2013, 11:55:16 AM
Really? You sounded just like us, such as using rational arguments and identifying logical fallacies, all when you were little?

Thought God was something only idiots needed to believe in. I saw myself as smarter than everyone because I figured out there was no God. Then I realized how silly it sounds to think that 90-95% of the world is deluded and I somehow "saw the light" and was right. It didn't feel very humbling.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Truth OT on October 15, 2013, 11:55:43 AM

That can not work because no human is innocent. This is why animals were sacrificed because they can not sin. They are innocent. Since all humans sin, you can not use a human as a sacrifice. The dirty can not clean the dirty as I mentioned previously.

This is why Jesus was CLEAN. He was free from sin. A pure and perfect sacrifice.

Animals were sacrificed because the bronze age and pre-bronze age people were overly superstitious, somewhat barbaric, and flat out ignorant as it pertained to the reasons behind what they witnessed in their lives.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 15, 2013, 12:00:12 PM

That can not work because no human is innocent. This is why animals were sacrificed because they can not sin. They are innocent. Since all humans sin, you can not use a human as a sacrifice. The dirty can not clean the dirty as I mentioned previously.

This is why Jesus was CLEAN. He was free from sin. A pure and perfect sacrifice.

Animals were sacrificed because the bronze age and pre-bronze age people were overly superstitious, somewhat barbaric, and flat out ignorant as it pertained to the reasons behind what they witnessed in their lives.

Say what you want about them being stupid, but they figured out that humans were created last without having any idea of evolution.

If humans were so special, why were they not created first by God according to the story? To me, this suggests it is certainly not a myth and that they certainly weren't stupid.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: screwtape on October 15, 2013, 12:01:23 PM
Seriously?  How about you take responsibility for yourself?  If someone close to you was killed and the police executed some random person whom they and you both know did not commit the crime, would you really consider that to be justice?  Or if you were the random guy executed for someone else's crime?

That can not work because no human is innocent.

WTF?  Have you lost the thread of the discussion?  Because your sentence there has no bearing whatsoever on what was said prior to it.   

This is why animals were sacrificed because they can not sin. They are innocent. Since all humans sin, you can not use a human as a sacrifice. The dirty can not clean the dirty as I mentioned previously.

First of all, that is wrong.  Hebrews sacrificed people on occasion.  Isaac, Jephthah's daughter, and 450 priests of Baal.

Secondly, if animals are innocent and remove sin, then why did we need jesus H at all? 

Do you see the crazy circles you are going in?

This is why Jesus was CLEAN. He was free from sin. A pure and perfect sacrifice.

Therefore...jesus was an animal.



Killing babies is murder, which is a sin.

So what?  Sin- shmin.  You get to have your sins forgiven.  You would do so much good by killing boat-loads of babies and send them directly to heaven.  And they you would be forgive, because JESUS.

No, that is bigotry.

No, that is prudence.  Putting people in charge who could not care less about life and the world is suicidal.

I would never murder anyone.

That's debatable.  You've already said you would kill your children if god asked and you made a case for killing children just for the benefit of sending them to heaven.  So, your non-murder credentials are shakey at best.

Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: jdawg70 on October 15, 2013, 12:03:29 PM
Thought God was something only idiots needed to believe in. I saw myself as smarter than everyone because I figured out there was no God. Then I realized how silly it sounds to think that 90-95% of the world is deluded and I somehow "saw the light" and was right. It didn't feel very humbling.
Are you under the impression that 90-95% of the world population subscribes to approximately the same beliefs that you do?

Please give China or India a call.  They would like to have a word with you.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 15, 2013, 12:03:38 PM
Really? You sounded just like us, such as using rational arguments and identifying logical fallacies, all when you were little?

Thought God was something only idiots needed to believe in. I saw myself as smarter than everyone because I figured out there was no God. Then I realized how silly it sounds to think that 90-95% of the world is deluded and I somehow "saw the light" and was right. It didn't feel very humbling.

If you thoughts these things then there isn't any correlation between how you used to be and how I am now.

- I don't think God belief is for idiots
- I don't see myself as "smarter"
- I don't say "there is no God". I simply lack belief (just like I lack belief in astrology or unicorns)
- I don't say it's silly to know that the amount of people who believe something is no indication of it's correctness


So, it is a false comparison. When I was a believer I made many of the same arguments you are making (and I later changed). That is all I was saying.

Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 15, 2013, 12:10:58 PM

Say what you want about them being stupid, but they figured out that humans were created last without having any idea of evolution.

If humans were so special, why were they not created first by God according to the story? To me, this suggests it is certainly not a myth and that they certainly weren't stupid.


Have you read the Epic of Gilgamesh, The Egyptian Book of the Dead, The Writings of Apollonius, or any other ancient text?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Dante on October 15, 2013, 12:14:06 PM

God didn't create anyone with sin. He gave us a choice. We didn't listen. Every day people choose to sin.

Parent tells their child, "no cookies before dinner." The child eats a cookie and gets punished. Blame the parent for making up the rule or the child for not listening?

Then really, how do you answer Anfauglir's posting below?

Jesus was part of god since the beginning, so in his omniscience he knew right from the beginning that his sacrifice would have been necessary.  Which means that before man was created, Yahweh knew they would fail, Yahweh knew the flood would not work, knew at every intervention he made in the world that it would fail, so.......

Um.

Sorry, I think my apologetics just failed.  If (as 54768 claims) "Jesus knew he would be resurrected since the beginning of time", then Jesus/god knew before mankind was created that a sacrifice would be necessary.  Knew before Adam, before Eden, before the serpent, that mankind would fall.

And, knowing that, Yahweh created things anyway.  KNOWING that creating the serpent would lead to mankind's fall, Yahweh created it and allowed it into the garden.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: jdawg70 on October 15, 2013, 12:14:37 PM
Say what you want about them being stupid, but they figured out that humans were created last without having any idea of evolution.
While you're at it, there are some nylon-eating bacteria that would also like to have a word with you.

Quote
If humans were so special, why were they not created first by God according to the story? To me, this suggests it is certainly not a myth and that they certainly weren't stupid.
What the hell?  I'm confused by this.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Truth OT on October 15, 2013, 12:18:30 PM
God didn't create anyone with sin. He gave us a choice. We didn't listen. Every day people choose to sin.

Parent tells their child, "no cookies before dinner." The child eats a cookie and gets punished. Blame the parent for making up the rule or the child for not listening?

Humans are so arrogant. The creation narratives with these deities are no more than veiled allegories designed to glorify man's self appointed place at the pinnicle of creation. The "parent" analogy is a flawed one to make your point IMO skept. In a parental scenario, the rule is put in place for the well being of the child's health in order to help the child grow up fit and healthy so the child can reach adulthood which is a peer level with the parental figure. With regards to the Genesis narrative, the same cannot be said. Looking at the scriptures, God is always God above man which I find very convenient as men throughout history claiming to have God on their side have used God as sort of a bully to force others to comply with their demands and accept their convictions as right.

Were an omnipotent and loving God that was our creator to really exist, it would be deeply offended by what the scriptures have depicted it as.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Truth OT on October 15, 2013, 12:25:34 PM
Animals were sacrificed because the bronze age and pre-bronze age people were overly superstitious, somewhat barbaric, and flat out ignorant as it pertained to the reasons behind what they witnessed in their lives.

Say what you want about them being stupid, but they figured out that humans were created last without having any idea of evolution.

If humans were so special, why were they not created first by God according to the story? To me, this suggests it is certainly not a myth and that they certainly weren't stupid.

I never called them stupid. That's all you my friend. All I state is the facts and those facts are that they were by and large very superstitious, oftentimes barbaric (yes requiring blood sacrifices qualifies as barbaric), and they were ill-informed (a.k.a. ignorant) when it came to how reality works.

As far as humans not being created first in the creation myth, the fact that they were said to be created last and given authority over creation speaks to how special the writers and promoters of this myth saw human beings. Again, veiled self-deification.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 15, 2013, 12:27:44 PM
You mean the "sin" that God placed within us when he supposedly "knit" us (created us) in the womb? So God created us WITH SIN, and then wants to punish us for it (knowing everything in advance), all for this "perfect plan"? An all-powerful (all-loving?) God would not need to go through all of that. But since we know that men throughout history have made up tons of false religions to control people, it makes a lot more sense under that light. I would ask you why you believe the bible as "the Word of God" but that is off topic. I will start another thread for that.

God didn't create anyone with sin. He gave us a choice. We didn't listen. Every day people choose to sin.

Parent tells their child, "no cookies before dinner." The child eats a cookie and gets punished. Blame the parent for making up the rule or the child for not listening?


You don't believe that God creates every new human life? The bible says this - that he "knits" us in the womb (Psalm 139). If this is the case, then God specifically creates us WITH SIN in us. I didn't choose to be born/created with sin. But if you believe God creates each and every one of us (as you believe he is "the creator") then logically he creates us with sin.

Btw, when parents tell their kids not to get into the cookie jar their kids know right from wrong (b/c they have that capacity and were taught). Adam and Eve (supposedly again, b/c I think it's a myth) did not have the capacity b/c they had not "eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil". So this is also a false analogy because A&E did not know what they were doing (i.e. - no knowledge that what they were doing was wrong).
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Astreja on October 15, 2013, 12:32:05 PM
That can not work because no human is innocent. This is why animals were sacrificed because they can not sin. They are innocent. Since all humans sin, you can not use a human as a sacrifice. The dirty can not clean the dirty as I mentioned previously.

This is why Jesus was CLEAN. He was free from sin. A pure and perfect sacrifice.

What.  Utter.  Rot!

It is never okay to attempt to purify one thing by killing something or someone else.

Never.

And it is fractally wrong to both accept such a killing and worship the entity that prescribed such a killing (in this case, the hissy-fit god described in the Bible).

This Jesus fellow sacrificed a Passover long weekend and nothing more.  Dad made an offering of Himself to Himself,  on His own initiative, impaled upon His own spear for nine days and nights (q.v. Hávamál 138-139) after the tradition of a shamanic initiatory ordeal.  He also gave up His eye for the gift of wisdom and He didn't ask for it back three days later.

The alleged suffering of Jesus pales in comparison to the pain experienced by Allfather Oðinn, and is infinitesimal if even one thinking, feeling being is condemned to Hell for eternity.  I stand with those so condemned, and reject for all time all possibility of redemption through the ghastly Christian mythos.

Oh, and Jesus wasn't as innocent as you claim he was.  According to the Gospels, he destroyed a village's livelihood by infesting their pigs with demons; he killed a fig tree; he verbally abused a foreign woman by likening her to a dog; and he told his followers to take an ass and colt without asking the owner of the animals.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Truth OT on October 15, 2013, 12:52:48 PM
With that said, I would like to say that Jesus' sacrifice was important because He willingly did it. That is the ultimate act of love.

Funny, but what many believers miss is that Jesus' life and sacrifices were not really about us as much as if was about what he and his chosen elect would get from it. Have you not read Luke 22:29 where he talks about the kingdom that was promised to him or Acts 2:33-36 where Peter Jesus being elevated to Lord status, or for that matter Paul in Philippians 2:9-10 saying Jesus' obedience unto death was to result in Jesus being given a name above all names.
Bottom line according to the Bible, Jesus had something to gain from all of this and the byproduct was the availability of the gift of eternal life for Jesus elect and those that were willing to submit to him as their king. Those that were not ready to bow to King Jesus be damned (Luke 22:27)!


I know a lot of people think of the OT as "Evil" and "barbaric" but it is not. There are reasons God does what he does. Blood spread o the door was not evil and barbaric. It symbolized the coming of Jesus' sacrifice in the New Testament.

And you know God's reasoning I pressume, lucky you.

A bloody door post isn't barbaric to you because of what it symbolizes (a bloody, tortured, and murdered Jesus)? So I guess crucifiction isn't barbaric either. Your definitions of barbaric may need some tweeking by friend.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Benny on October 15, 2013, 02:56:59 PM
Since I've missed the boat on this conversation, I want to tie up a couple of loose ends that I think are important.

Odin is just a demon disguised as God. All these false gods are real. They are not fiction.

What if I said, "Yahweh is just a demon disguised as God.  Thor is the One True GodTM, and all others are just demons."  Why are you right, as opposed to me, even though we've said basically the same thing?

Death is not something to be feared, but accepted and embraced. I will gladly die for my faith than sell out and lie about my faith in Jesus in order to live more materialistic existence.

That's a very dangerous worldview that you should probably keep to yourself.  You sound an awful lot like a suicide bomber in training.

If humans were so special, why were they not created first by God according to the story? To me, this suggests it is certainly not a myth and that they certainly weren't stupid.

It suggests to me a bunch of dumb luck and cherry-picking.  If Eve was created after Adam, does that mean women the superior gender and the entire universe should be centered around the needs and caring of women?  I doubt it.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: William on October 15, 2013, 03:03:24 PM
Oh, and Jesus wasn't as innocent as you claim he was.  According to the Gospels, he destroyed a village's livelihood by infesting their pigs with demons; he killed a fig tree; he verbally abused a foreign woman by likening her to a dog; and he told his followers to take an ass and colt without asking the owner of the animals.

Good list Astreja.  And at least one more to add - Jesus didn't throw the first rock at the adulteress:

Quote
John 8: 7  When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”

If Jesus was without sin He would've obeyed His Father's laws and been the first in the queue to put the adulteress to death:

Quote
Leviticus 20:10  “If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

We know Jesus held the Father's law in the highest regard, and wouldn't change a bit of it:
Quote
Matthew 5:17-18  Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.

So we have two choices here.  Either Jesus must've already been a sinner by His own definition, or else Jesus sinned on the spot by disobeying His Fathers law to stone the adulteress.  So Jesus certainly wasn't the "innocent" pure sacrifice that Christians need to make their magic cleansing work. 

Bad luck for Jesus hey! No bloody wonder &) God needed to rebadge Himself as Allah and send Mohammed to reboot His cause - with a return to violence as means of enforcement  :(

Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 15, 2013, 03:19:25 PM

Killing babies is murder, which is a sin. But when it happens, we must deal with it. the baby is in Heaven. Hopefully, the murderer will repent of his ways so he can go to heaven as well. No one is beyond redemption.

So God sins then? There are quite a few places in the bible where God commands the killing of children and/or kills children himself (with bears etc). I guess your God needs to repent then because he has (according to that book) committed murder on many occasions (as well as condoned slavery and genocide).

But if you admit that you believe in a God who can violate his own moral laws (holding a double standard), why would you want to worship such a thing? Earlier you brought up the case of a judge in a courtroom, but judges are not held to a different standard than lay people. They are held to the same standard. If you believe God can do whatever he wants (even break his own commands) doesn't this just make God a big mafia boss (aka - a cosmic hypocritical dictator)? This sounds a lot more like a man's writings then an all-loving God's. Why would you even consider such a monster to be worthy of worship?

Of course, I speak tongue in cheek of sorts b/c I don't think the bible is an authority on anything moral, let alone anything about deities, but I'm wondering why you accept it a moral authority with such a double standard (and heinous acts performed by God) in place. Islam has a very similar rationale for their moral compass you know.

Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 15, 2013, 03:23:51 PM

We know Jesus held the Father's law in the highest regard, and wouldn't change a bit of it:
Quote
Matthew 5:17-18  Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.

So we have two choices here.  Either Jesus must've already been a sinner by His own definition, or else Jesus sinned on the spot by disobeying His Fathers law to stone the adulteress.  So Jesus certainly wasn't the "innocent" pure sacrifice that Christians need to make their magic cleansing work. 

Bad luck for Jesus hey! No bloody wonder &) God needed to rebadge Himself as Allah and send Mohammed to reboot His cause - with a return to violence as means of enforcement  :(


Except Jesus was God. So then, God is schizophrenic - always changing his mind as to what is morally permissible and what is not, or just outright contradicting himself by saying one thing and doing another. What a great example for us to follow and be "Christ-like"!
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: neopagan on October 15, 2013, 03:39:59 PM
Oh, and Jesus wasn't as innocent as you claim he was.  According to the Gospels, he destroyed a village's livelihood by infesting their pigs with demons; he killed a fig tree; he verbally abused a foreign woman by likening her to a dog; and he told his followers to take an ass and colt without asking the owner of the animals.

Good list Astreja.  And at least one more to add - Jesus didn't throw the first rock at the adulteress:

Quote
John 8: 7  When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”

If Jesus was without sin He would've obeyed His Father's laws and been the first in the queue to put the adulteress to death:

Quote
Leviticus 20:10  “If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Great point, William - never thought of that.  The story says jeezus started scribbling in the dirt... I think it was her phone number.  :)
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Graybeard on October 15, 2013, 04:04:55 PM
God didn't create anyone with sin.

The point here is that no gods ever created anyone - mankind creates gods.

Quote
He gave us a choice.

I have not the faintest idea how you know this, There are no gods, so if you invent one, that god can behave as any other fictional character

Quote
We didn't listen.

Rational people didn't listen to voices in their head. Rational people asked questions.

Quote
Every day people choose to sin.

Look, at some time, someone said, "Why should I spend my time with a load of other people singing songs to a non-existent god?" That was, according to one god out of 5,000 gods, a sin. Before gods were invented, there was no sin. People must have survived, otherwise you would not be here.

"Sin" is a silly word. Yes, people will be bad from time to time. I see this as human nature. You see it as the work of a god who didn't make perfect beings.

Quote
Parent tells their child, "no cookies before dinner." The child eats a cookie and gets punished. Blame the parent for making up the rule or the child for not listening?

No, blame the idiot who gave that as an example -> the kid is condemned to an eternity in Hell for disobedience? Is that what you want?

Is there any hope that you will think about what you are saying?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: jaimehlers on October 15, 2013, 04:14:22 PM
Hey guys, I'm a Christian and hope to discuss things with you. My username means that I am skeptical of non-belief. It's kind of a "reverse" of the normal use for skeptic.  ;D
And how are you skeptical of non-belief?  Do you think that atheists secretly believe despite saying they don't?  Or is it simply a way for you to say that you are a believer?

Quote from: skeptic54768
With that said, I would like to say that Jesus' sacrifice was important because He willingly did it. That is the ultimate act of love. Jesus showed that he conquered death. Everybody dies, but Jesus was an exception. That's what made it so extraordinary.
None of this really follows.  It's basically a series of statements that don't have a lot to do with each other, that you're trying to tie together.  And it isn't really working.  A willing sacrifice isn't necessarily an act of love; coming back to life after said sacrifice suggests that it failed of its purpose; and we don't really know whether Jesus was actually an exception or not.

Quote from: skeptic54768
In the Old Testament, blood of an innocent lamb was used on the door's of the Hebrews. This represented how an innocent animal must be sacrificed to atone for sins. This was foreshadowing the New testament where jesus is the innocent lamb and used as a final sacrifice for all. That's why animal sacrifices are not needed anymore.
Animals are not innocent.  Have you ever actually seen what animals can and will do to each other?  Adult male carnivores will often murder (and sometimes eat) young of their own species so that the female will be sexually available.  Adult males in a herd or pack will attack and attempt to drive off or kill wandering males.  This whole business of animals being innocent is based primarily on the idea that humans are sinful (due to the "original sin" in the book of Genesis), and animals are not.

Quote from: skeptic54768
jesus was the ultimate innocent sacrifice. I know a lot of people think of the OT as "Evil" and "barbaric" but it is not. There are reasons God does what he does. Blood spread o the door was not evil and barbaric. It symbolized the coming of Jesus' sacrifice in the New Testament.
Animal sacrifices were because YHWH found the smell of cooking meat pleasing, but hated the smell of cooking grains, fruits, and vegetables[1].  They were generally not blood sacrifices - Passover being a notable exception, when it was used to mark the mantles of doors to keep YHWH from killing off the firstborn of each generation.

Quote from: skeptic54768
I hope this helps. I'm not here to preach, just to explain my point of view. I will not just be quoting the Bible mindlessly.

Hope we can have good convos!  :)
While I appreciate the lack of mindless Bible quoting, you should spend some time reading the Bible, considering that you don't know it nearly as well as you think you do.
 1. In actual point of fact, it was because the priests liked cooked meat better than cooked grains - what do you think they did with all the cooked meat after the sacrifice was done?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Astreja on October 15, 2013, 05:44:25 PM
So we have two choices here.  Either Jesus must've already been a sinner by His own definition, or else Jesus sinned on the spot by disobeying His Fathers law to stone the adulteress.  So Jesus certainly wasn't the "innocent" pure sacrifice that Christians need to make their magic cleansing work.

Well, according to Mark 10:18...
Quote
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone."

So much for a perfect, sinless sacrifice, wot?  And so much for Paul of Tarsus, a.k.a. Antichrist Jr., who started that "perfect sacrifice" rubbish in the first place.  (Ever notice how often Paul's ideas contradict the ideas of Jesus, BTW?)
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on October 15, 2013, 06:21:01 PM
What I am really puzzled by is the invention of heaven and hell the Christians created so Jesus would have someplace to come back from and to go to after three days.

 Why did Yahweh in his master plan not mention heaven or hell to his original followers,the Jews?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on October 15, 2013, 06:25:36 PM
Jesus also did not sacrifice himself,he like many other criminals of the time was killed for crimes against the people in charge
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nick on October 15, 2013, 06:40:31 PM
I never understood why Jesus needed to visit hell after He kind of died? As I understand it, once in hell you are in hell.  Why the visit?  To rub it in?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 15, 2013, 09:24:52 PM
These are a lot of responses. I have read them all but I do not have all the time in the world to respond to them all. I did not know this forum moves so quickly.

I just don't want you guys to think, "He's stumped! We got him!" if I don't respond to everything. I do have things to do in life. I can not constantly be in a 1 vs 20 battle every day.

I will try my best to respond to posts I deem to be the most important due to time purposes.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 15, 2013, 09:26:42 PM
These are a lot of responses. I have read them all but I do not have all the time in the world to respond to them all. I did not know this forum moves so quickly.

I just don't want you guys to think, "He's stumped! We got him!" if I don't respond to everything. I do have things to do in life. I can not constantly be in a 1 vs 20 battle every day.

I will try my best to respond to posts I deem to be the most important due to time purposes.


No problem. Take your time :)
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 15, 2013, 09:41:44 PM
So what?  Sin- shmin.  You get to have your sins forgiven.  You would do so much good by killing boat-loads of babies and send them directly to heaven.  And they you would be forgive, because JESUS.

No, that is not how forgiveness works. I can not knowingly go out and do things like that and simply just ask for forgiveness. Foreknowledge of things like that will not get me forgiven.

"let me go out and kill babies because God will forgive me" is the lazy way of not taking responsibility. it shows no attempt to even try to not to sin. No attempt to even try to be godlike with your actions.

It's the excuse people use when they don't believe in God and just want to justify it somehow. "I hate person X so I'm gonna kill them because God wants person x dead." This shows I would just be using God as an excuse for my selfish gains, kind of like the Crusades and Inquisition that we all detest so much. Those people weren't believers. They just wanted land and power and just say "We'll use God as our excuse to kill."

We must try our best not to do any sin. Occasionally, we slip up and ask for forgiveness and we try to not to do it anymore. The effort and determination is what counts. It's very difficult to be a believer. Atheism is easy as pie. No responsibility to anyone. Just do what you want whenever you want, for tomorrow we could be dead.

I have a friend whose father is an atheist and an alcoholic. He does nothing except drink beer and watch TV all day. He is spiritually dead. When we try and bring up the bible with him he says, "I don't wanna hear it! You're blocking the TV!" as if he cares about absolutely nothing. Believers who rejoice in Christ don't wallow around like that wasting away.

Obviously, if atheism is 100% true, my friend's father has nothing wrong with him. he can do that all he wants with no worries. He'll just die one day.

But in Christianity, being lazy is a sin that needs to be repented. God didn't create us to waste away on couches falling asleep in beer bottles.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 15, 2013, 09:55:08 PM
And how are you skeptical of non-belief?  Do you think that atheists secretly believe despite saying they don't?  Or is it simply a way for you to say that you are a believer?

I don't think they secretly believe. I believe that they disbelieve.
But, an atheist could never empirically prove to me that they are an atheist. It's just something we have to take on faith.

 So, if an atheist were to tell me, "Only empirically proven things exist," then I would have to assume that atheists do not exist because I can't empirically prove that they are an atheist in the first place.

None of this really follows.  It's basically a series of statements that don't have a lot to do with each other, that you're trying to tie together.  And it isn't really working.  A willing sacrifice isn't necessarily an act of love; coming back to life after said sacrifice suggests that it failed of its purpose; and we don't really know whether Jesus was actually an exception or not.

The sacrifice was his torment. He was tormented very badly.

Animals are not innocent.  Have you ever actually seen what animals can and will do to each other?  Adult male carnivores will often murder (and sometimes eat) young of their own species so that the female will be sexually available.  Adult males in a herd or pack will attack and attempt to drive off or kill wandering males.  This whole business of animals being innocent is based primarily on the idea that humans are sinful (due to the "original sin" in the book of Genesis), and animals are not.

Animals are not making a choice to do that. That is how they were made. It is not murder when an animal does it. Only humans can murder. God can not murder either. It is only something humans can do. God just takes his children. It is not murder.

Animal sacrifices were because YHWH found the smell of cooking meat pleasing, but hated the smell of cooking grains, fruits, and vegetables[1].  They were generally not blood sacrifices - Passover being a notable exception, when it was used to mark the mantles of doors to keep YHWH from killing off the firstborn of each generation.
 1. In actual point of fact, it was because the priests liked cooked meat better than cooked grains - what do you think they did with all the cooked meat after the sacrifice was done?

In the same way the blood of the lamb (Jesus) keeps Yahweh from sending us to Hell.

While I appreciate the lack of mindless Bible quoting, you should spend some time reading the Bible, considering that you don't know it nearly as well as you think you do.

With all due respect, I know the Bible very well. Christians are the ones who know the Bible. Taking advice on the Bible from an atheist doesn't make sense to me.

For example, if I wanted to know what Muslims believe, I'm gonna ask a Muslim, not a Jew.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 15, 2013, 10:02:06 PM
So God sins then? There are quite a few places in the bible where God commands the killing of children and/or kills children himself (with bears etc). I guess your God needs to repent then because he has (according to that book) committed murder on many occasions (as well as condoned slavery and genocide).

God repented after the Flood. He said it didn't do anything to wipe away all the sin. A God who actually apologizes to us, despite how wicked we are, is remarkable in my opinion. Shows His love for us.

But if you admit that you believe in a God who can violate his own moral laws (holding a double standard), why would you want to worship such a thing? Earlier you brought up the case of a judge in a courtroom, but judges are not held to a different standard than lay people. They are held to the same standard. If you believe God can do whatever he wants (even break his own commands) doesn't this just make God a big mafia boss (aka - a cosmic hypocritical dictator)? This sounds a lot more like a man's writings then an all-loving God's. Why would you even consider such a monster to be worthy of worship?

No way is it a double standard.

Is it a double standard for a judge to put someone in prison, yet we can't hold a criminal hostage in our basement?

Of course, I speak tongue in cheek of sorts b/c I don't think the bible is an authority on anything moral, let alone anything about deities, but I'm wondering why you accept it a moral authority with such a double standard (and heinous acts performed by God) in place. Islam has a very similar rationale for their moral compass you know.

I am curious where you get your morals. Is anything ever 100% right or 100% wrong?

If so, where does it come from?

if not, then all moral discussions & moral dilemmas are meaningless.
It's just whatever feels right to the person and that's that.

Yet, atheists do discuss moral dilemmas so I guess they must be believe things are objectively right and wrong. Otherwise, no discussion needed.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 15, 2013, 10:14:45 PM
The point here is that no gods ever created anyone - mankind creates gods.

Evidence?

God is a spirit. How does man create a spirit?
 
Perhaps you mean that God was made up by people.
I would need evidence of this, otherwise my view that God created man is still valid.

Rational people didn't listen to voices in their head. Rational people asked questions.

Are you implying that everyone who believes in God is not rational?

How do you know that you are rational?
Where does rationality come from?
Can you empirically experience rationality?


Look, at some time, someone said, "Why should I spend my time with a load of other people singing songs to a non-existent god?" That was, according to one god out of 5,000 gods, a sin. Before gods were invented, there was no sin. People must have survived, otherwise you would not be here.

Nobody was around before God. That is nonsensical to me. People came AFTER God created us.

"Sin" is a silly word. Yes, people will be bad from time to time. I see this as human nature. You see it as the work of a god who didn't make perfect beings.

You view it as human nature because it is what is leftover from Adam & Eve. It is sin nature, not human nature.

No, blame the idiot who gave that as an example -> the kid is condemned to an eternity in Hell for disobedience? Is that what you want?

Is there any hope that you will think about what you are saying?

The point remains that the child will think the punishment is stupid and claim that the parent didn't even have to make rules in the first place. The child wonders why they can not just do whatever they want, whenever they want.

This sounds a lot like the atheistic side of the debate. They wonder why God made all these rules and think it's silly. God has reasons for his rules though, just like parents. The children understand this when they mature. Believers understand this when they are spiritually mature.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 15, 2013, 10:25:59 PM
What if I said, "Yahweh is just a demon disguised as God.  Thor is the One True GodTM, and all others are just demons."  Why are you right, as opposed to me, even though we've said basically the same thing?

Are there any Scriptures out there that condemn Yahweh as a false god?

The Bible mentions the fallen angels coming down and mating with humans. Since the fallen angels hated God and wanted to be like him, it makes perfect sense that they would disguise themselves as false gods to deceive people into worshiping them.


That's a very dangerous worldview that you should probably keep to yourself.  You sound an awful lot like a suicide bomber in training.

No way lol

Suicide is a sin. I try not to commit sin as best I can. No reason to commit suicide or kill other human beings.

It suggests to me a bunch of dumb luck and cherry-picking.  If Eve was created after Adam, does that mean women the superior gender and the entire universe should be centered around the needs and caring of women?  I doubt it.

A lot of the perfect knowledge in the Bible is always being described as "dumb luck" by a lot of doubters in my opinion.

At what point do you pause and say, "You know what....maybe it's not dumb luck....maybe it's true after all?"
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on October 15, 2013, 11:16:39 PM
A lot of the perfect knowledge in the Bible is always being described as "dumb luck" by a lot of doubters in my opinion.

At what point do you pause and say, "You know what....maybe it's not dumb luck....maybe it's true after all?"

I can't speak for others, but I come up short when I try to think of places where the bible exhibited perfect knowledge. If you think it does, and also think that the flood actually happened, then your standards for knowledge are so wanting that you are in no position to tell us how perfect the bible is.

And I'll say that something is true once I determine it is. Your bible, as a fairy tale for adults, might accidentally get things right every once in a while, but anything with that many words has no chance of being wrong about everything. The odds are against it. That would take more planning than even the zealots that wrote it could muster.

No Eden, no flood, no Babel, no Red Sea parting, no lost tribe of half a million walking around for 40 years, no virgin births, no Jesus, no resurrection, no return, no armageddon, no heaven, no hell. Which part are you impressed with? The salt lady, man-eating whales, writing on the walls?

We can prove via genetics that the human race didn't start from scratch 6-10,000 years ago. We can prove via geology and biology and ice cores and tree rings and pollen layers and radioactive isotopes that life and humans and rocks and plants have been around far far longer than the bible claims. We can prove via astronomy and physics and chemistry that the universe has been around far, far longer than the bible claims. Our genes scream evolution, our rocks scream ancient histories, our stars scream chemical complexity.

You scream the name of Jesus and think you know more.

As I always say: That's sad.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 15, 2013, 11:19:24 PM
Were an omnipotent and loving God that was our creator to really exist, it would be deeply offended by what the scriptures have depicted it as.

How do you know that? Did you just make up your own God?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 15, 2013, 11:26:17 PM
I can't speak for others, but I come up short when I try to think of places where the bible exhibited perfect knowledge. If you think it does, and also think that the flood actually happened, then your standards for knowledge are so wanting that you are in no position to tell us how perfect the bible is.

And I'll say that something is true once I determine it is. Your bible, as a fairy tale for adults, might accidentally get things right every once in a while, but anything with that many words has no chance of being wrong about everything. The odds are against it. That would take more planning than even the zealots that wrote it could muster.

No Eden, no flood, no Babel, no Red Sea parting, no lost tribe of half a million walking around for 40 years, no virgin births, no Jesus, no resurrection, no return, no armageddon, no heaven, no hell. Which part are you impressed with? The salt lady, man-eating whales, writing on the walls?

We can prove via genetics that the human race didn't start from scratch 6-10,000 years ago. We can prove via geology and biology and ice cores and tree rings and pollen layers and radioactive isotopes that life and humans and rocks and plants have been around far far longer than the bible claims. We can prove via astronomy and physics and chemistry that the universe has been around far, far longer than the bible claims. Our genes scream evolution, our rocks scream ancient histories, our stars scream chemical complexity.

You scream the name of Jesus and think you know more.

As I always say: That's sad.

I used to think like that as well. Used to think scientists knew it all and we had no need for religion. But, when I humbled myself I realized how many things science has gotten wrong over the years. We also have only been intensively studying the age of the earth for the past 100-200 years. So to think we have everything figured out in such a short timespan and that it could never be wrong was not humbling enough for me. It made me feel dishonest.

So to put all my faith in science when things could change tomorrow, does not seem to be the best option.

"Today's facts becoming tomorrow's fiction" doesn't really give you a good leg to stand on. I believe the Bible gives a good leg to stand on because it doesn't change. God got it right the first time.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 15, 2013, 11:33:13 PM
Bad luck for Jesus hey! No bloody wonder &) God needed to rebadge Himself as Allah and send Mohammed to reboot His cause - with a return to violence as means of enforcement  :(

God did not do any such thing. The Islamic crescent moon is a satanic symbol. Anyone can look this up and see. Do a quick google search. It is one of the false religions created by the fallen angels deceiving Muhammad.

A religion with a blatant satanic symbol as it's symbol has to make you think, "This is certainly not the work of God."

Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: William on October 15, 2013, 11:40:32 PM
God did not do any such thing.

Of course God didn't. It's fiction.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 15, 2013, 11:47:38 PM
God did not do any such thing.

Of course God didn't. It's fiction.

I can't accept statements like that unless you provide evidence.
How is it fiction?

I have provided evidence that things that once were facts in science are now considered fiction.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on October 15, 2013, 11:53:52 PM
I used to think like that as well. Used to think scientists knew it all and we had no need for religion. But, when I humbled myself I realized how many things science has gotten wrong over the years. We also have only been intensively studying the age of the earth for the past 100-200 years. So to think we have everything figured out in such a short timespan and that it could never be wrong was not humbling enough for me. It made me feel dishonest.

Hey, how long have you been deciding that christianity was right? Surely you're younger than a couple of hundred years. If time is so important and never long enough, certainly the short little period in which you have been alive is completely inadequate when it comes to providing you with enough information on the subject of religion.

Or, perhaps time isn't quite as relevant as you are excusing it to be. Why in the heck is time relevant here? Is there some inherent limit as to how fast humans can learn? Are test tubes restricted by space and time to providing answers only after 50 centuries or something? Yes indeed science is relatively young. But that doesn't automatically make it wrong about everything. If it were, we would know it because it would sound silly. LIke religion sounds silly. But it doesn't. The findings of science are remarkable consistent across disciplines. You are using the time issue as an excuse to get out of actually confronting the truth. Which I realize is convenient for you, but it accomplishes nothing.

Quote
So to put all my faith in science when things could change tomorrow, does not seem to be the best option.

Things will change tomorrow. We'll know more. Scientists are adding to our knowledge base on a daily basis. Building on the work of their predecessors or on the work they did last year, they are discovering more and more, and everything the discover buries religion a bit deeper every day. I know you don't want to believe that, because it would be frickin' inconvenient to have to deal with facts and stuff, but it remains true, no matter how confused you wish to stay.

Quote
"Today's facts becoming tomorrow's fiction" doesn't really give you a good leg to stand on. I believe the Bible gives a good leg to stand on because it doesn't change. God got it right the first time.

I googled your quote and found nothing. Hence I've no idea where it came from, who said it, how true it is, or even how the religious community feels about it. My legs can stand quite easily atop made up excuses from others.

And you're right. The bible doesn't change. Which is why all christians, throughout the world, agree with each other 100% on all biblical scholarship, on all interpretations, on every detail, on every prophecy, on every verse as it relates to literal, metaphorical, allegorical and other interpretations. Not one single human being has ever died disagreeing with another one over the details of your book. Not only has not a single war been fought over varying interpretations of religion, but there hasn't even been a single marital spat over what Jesus meant when he said something.

Of course, my knowledge of religious history is less than 200 years old, so I might be wrong about some of that.

Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 15, 2013, 11:56:17 PM
If you thoughts these things then there isn't any correlation between how you used to be and how I am now.

- I don't think God belief is for idiots
- I don't see myself as "smarter"
- I don't say "there is no God". I simply lack belief (just like I lack belief in astrology or unicorns)
- I don't say it's silly to know that the amount of people who believe something is no indication of it's correctness


So, it is a false comparison. When I was a believer I made many of the same arguments you are making (and I later changed). That is all I was saying.

Ok fair enough. However, there are certainly atheists out there who think they are superior and more intelligent because they think they figured out there is no God. They think they have a sense of entitlement and some of them even think that religious people suffer from mental illness. This is the same attitude the Nazi's had toward other people.

Many of them mindlessly quote Dawkins, Harris and new atheist authors as if they have no thoughts of their own. They laugh at believers and call us names and claim we blindly follow, yet they blindly follow Dawkins, Harris and others. It's like a pot calling the kettle black type of thing.

if you aren't this type of atheist, then that is fine. but these types of atheists give atheism a bad reputation. Makes people think it's condescending.

Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 15, 2013, 11:59:02 PM
You know, ideally at least, we don't throw people in jail just for the sake of punishing them.  The intent is to prevent them from doing further harm and to potentially rehabilitate that person so that they do not do harm in the future.  You seem to think that justice is about re-balancing universal karma or something - as if it doesn't matter who is being punished, as long as someone is getting hurt it is making up for some transgression.

You have a screwed up moral compass.

No. Sometimes we put people in prison for life with no possibility of getting out. How is that rehabilitation? No matter how sorry the person is, they won't get out. The judge could say, "All these laws are stupid. Let's just make everything legal," but people would be in an uproar. They'd be saying how the judge needs to enact punishment on the criminals.

You don't have to respond to absolutely everyone, 54768, but you really should bother to read the posts of people you do reply to.  I emphasized the parts of jdawg's post that you either didn't bother to read, or had deliberately ignored.

If the former, then please slow down and read the posts you choose to respond to, so that your responses actually make sense.

If the latter, then screw off and troll somewhere else.

I'm guessing it's the former, though.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 12:01:37 AM
Things will change tomorrow. We'll know more. Scientists are adding to our knowledge base on a daily basis. Building on the work of their predecessors or on the work they did last year, they are discovering more and more, and everything the discover buries religion a bit deeper every day. I know you don't want to believe that, because it would be frickin' inconvenient to have to deal with facts and stuff, but it remains true, no matter how confused you wish to stay.

I believe the Bible is the truth and it's inconvenient for some people to accept it, so they have to come up with a godless explanation to get around it.

Nobody wants to be told that they have rules to follow. People want to be their own God, their own boss, their own judge, own jury, own executioner. It's much easier to just accept that you have no responsibilities.


I guess we have to agree to disagree with the bold.

Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 12:03:24 AM
I really want to hear Christians respond. How is it that you think Jesus actually died for your sins? According to this story, the guy didn't stay dead. What kind of sacrifice is that? In the OT the slaughtered cattle didn't come back. Now, a God named Yahweh supposedly made everything (knowing what would happen), and planned it all out so that it would happen just the way he wanted it to (his "divine plan") just so he could come down and sacrifice himself, to himself, then preach to some people in hell for three days only to come back to life? Does this honestly make any sense to you? If so, how? A real hero would actually stay dead. His sacrifice would be a true loss for him (i.e. - he would lose everything in order that we would gain) - but that is not what happened according to the bible. God didn't kill himself so that we could live. So, why should we think this story is true?  Doesn't it just sound more like foolish men made it all up (just like in other religions)?


Christians, please help us non-believers understand why you believe this story (what good reason do you have) and why should anybody think it makes any sense?


(http://www.atheistmemebase.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/312-Ultimate-sacrifice-jesus-sacrifice-philosoraptor.jpg)

Makes me wonder, based on history, why Christians have hated Jews so much. I mean, if Jesus didn't "die", then, he wouldn't have died for "our" sins, nor even to come back to prove he was Biblegod .

They should've loved Jews, celebrated them. Of course, they probably truly hate Jews because they are Biblegod's chosen people, and they are not.

Sure, most love them now but that seems more of an end to a mean, like the "end" that they always preach will happen in their lifetime yet never does but then you have the fundies who may try to expedite the process--and they wonder why they're not the chosen ones.

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 12:05:20 AM
You don't have to respond to absolutely everyone, 54768, but you really should bother to read the posts of people you do reply to.  I emphasized the parts of jdawg's post that you either didn't bother to read, or had deliberately ignored.

If the former, then please slow down and read the posts you choose to respond to, so that your responses actually make sense.

If the latter, then screw off and troll somewhere else.

I'm guessing it's the former, though.

I didn't think I ignored it. I'm sorry.

I am assuming that atheists are not big on the quality of forgiveness?

"Life without parole" seems harsh if this is the only life we get, doesn't it? Why not forgive the person and allow him out to enjoy the one life he has? Otherwise, there is no possibility of him learning from the punishment and getting out to live a normal life.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: William on October 16, 2013, 12:09:13 AM
I can't accept statements like that unless you provide evidence.
How is it fiction?

A talking snake.
Exodus didn't happen.
Nazareth doesn't have a hill.
Jesus was captured after and before the Passover meal.
The Johannine Comma.
Drinking poison and handling snakes.

Don't get me started  ;D


Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 16, 2013, 12:16:04 AM
I didn't think I ignored it. I'm sorry.

Well, you did ignore it.  As a result, your post pretended that jdawg was saying something that (s)he didn't say.  It was convenient for you to ignore what you did, which brings up the question of whether it was an intentional attempt at deception.

I am assuming that atheists are not big on the quality of forgiveness?

You are assuming a lot of negative things about other groups of people.  When the group of people is classified based on skin colour, that is called "racism".  It's no prettier when you do it to other groups, though, either.

"Life without parole" seems harsh if this is the only life we get, doesn't it? Why not forgive the person and allow him out to enjoy the one life he has? Otherwise, there is no possibility of him learning from the punishment and getting out to live a normal life.

In some cases, preventing harm someone might do to others is more important than attempting rehabilitation.  Because they're dangerous.

You clearly already know this and are now being disingenuous.

Legal punishments have four goals, not necessarily all of them at the same time for every case:
1. Direct protection.  Incarceration is primarily for this purpose.
2. Pre-emptive dissuasion.  The idea is that people will be less likely to commit crimes if there is a penalty to that crime.
3. Rehabilitation.  The goal is to correct behavior of a known criminal.
4. Vengeance.  The goal is satisfying the emotional needs of those who know about the crime.

Agree?  Disagree?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 16, 2013, 12:17:41 AM

Ok fair enough. However, there are certainly atheists out there who think they are superior and more intelligent because they think they figured out there is no God. They think they have a sense of entitlement and some of them even think that religious people suffer from mental illness. This is the same attitude the Nazi's had toward other people.

Many of them mindlessly quote Dawkins, Harris and new atheist authors as if they have no thoughts of their own. They laugh at believers and call us names and claim we blindly follow, yet they blindly follow Dawkins, Harris and others. It's like a pot calling the kettle black type of thing.

if you aren't this type of atheist, then that is fine. but these types of atheists give atheism a bad reputation. Makes people think it's condescending.


There is no such thing as 'giving atheism a bad reputation'. Unlike your faith in your religious beliefs, atheism is a negative positive (like being a non-astrologer). So neither Dawkins, no Harris, nor Dennett, nor Hitchens have "given atheism a bad name", anymore than they have given not believing in Unicorns a bad name. You cannot give a bad name to a none belief (only to a positive one). With that said, what you may be referring to are those atheists that also make blanket type positive claims regarding deities but I have not seen any of those men making such claims.


Again, atheism is not a belief. It is a lack of one (a negative position).
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 12:17:55 AM
I can't accept statements like that unless you provide evidence.
How is it fiction?

A talking snake.
Exodus didn't happen.
Nazareth doesn't have a hill.
Jesus was captured after and before the Passover meal.
The Johannine Comma.
Drinking poison and handling snakes.

Don't get me started  ;D

I saw a talking snake in Disney's Robin Hood. That's evidence they exist.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 16, 2013, 12:20:18 AM
Again, atheism is not a belief. It is a lack of one (a negative position).

It can still be given a bad name in the eyes of those who are ignorant of what you've explained.  That may not be justified, but it is still a real-world effect of a title getting a bad name.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on October 16, 2013, 12:22:57 AM
Things will change tomorrow. We'll know more. Scientists are adding to our knowledge base on a daily basis. Building on the work of their predecessors or on the work they did last year, they are discovering more and more, and everything the discover buries religion a bit deeper every day. I know you don't want to believe that, because it would be frickin' inconvenient to have to deal with facts and stuff, but it remains true, no matter how confused you wish to stay.

I believe the Bible is the truth and it's inconvenient for some people to accept it, so they have to come up with a godless explanation to get around it.

Nobody wants to be told that they have rules to follow. People want to be their own God, their own boss, their own judge, own jury, own executioner. It's much easier to just accept that you have no responsibilities.

You know, if you are going to over-generalize, the least you can do be wrong right. And you are wrong wrong here. Your "own god" statement is so irrelevant to the discussion that you should have had google translate it into Mongolian  to emphasize that point. You are skipping around science by dissing it automatically and wondering why we don't do the same.

I have responsibilities. Tons of them. I accept them. I do my best to meet them. I don't use my atheism as an excuse to be a fool or an ass. I daresay I am far more moral in thought and action than many of the religious people I have known. My morals come from social constructs though, not religious ones, and you find that offensive. So, without even knowing a single thing about where I stand on relevant issues, you go to all the trouble of assuming I am irresponsible and my desire to be irresponsible drives my atheism, and in the process, you ignore any discussion about science because you don't know enough about it to make stuff up in that department.

We're not having a discussion, you are having an excuse-fest, and you think you're coming out on top.

Delusions will do that to a guy, I guess.

Quote
I guess we have to agree to disagree with the bold.

You can agree to disagree, but I'm not going to. Which means that there is no agreement. Which is fine with you because you don't intend to agree with anything anyway. But you're willing to relabel it for your own convenience. Because you don't mind participating poorly in discourse with others. Apparently.

I agree about that. I don't care if you do or not.

P.S. I've never read any books  by Dawkins, Hitchens or any other prominent atheist. Which means you have to come up with some other assumptions about me. I apologize about that. Maybe you could attack my height, or the color of my skin, or my liberal education, or my propensity to be a wise ass when confronting gross ignorance.

You should probably leave that last one alone though. You've already got me going in that department.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 12:41:30 AM
PP,

Quote
P.S. I've never read any books  by Dawkins, Hitchens or any other prominent atheist.

Me either. Except Paine but I believe he was a deist.

from The Age of Reason[1]
Quote
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.

-Nam
 1. I actually have this downloaded to my phone but this quote's from wiki
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on October 16, 2013, 12:48:41 AM
I'm trying to imagine skeptic in a conversation with his friends. I imagine it would go about like this:

Friend: Hey skeptic, whatta you think of that debacle in Washington. Man, are our politicians useless, or what?

Skeptic: My car is not red, it's white. And you know it. You're just saying that because you think you're so special because you ride your bike on weekends. I've ever even seen a red car.

Friend: Right now I'm mad at politicians in both parties. They all seem crazy to me.

Skeptic: I am NOT an orphan. How could I be this tall if I was? Huh? You can't answer that one can you. That's why all the women in your life are cheap whores.

Friend: And I can't seem to get a straight answer on what will happen if the US defaults on its loans.

Skeptic: Hey, I hear you got gored by a buffalo when you were on vacation in Hawaii. And your wife is ugly too.

Friend: Well, gotta go.

Skeptic: Yea, run away with your tail between you legs, looser! Thought you could win an argument with me, huh. That'll teach you!
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: jaimehlers on October 16, 2013, 12:49:18 AM
I don't think they secretly believe. I believe that they disbelieve.
But, an atheist could never empirically prove to me that they are an atheist. It's just something we have to take on faith.
Sounds like a word game to me.  Or else you have a bad idea of what atheism means.

Quote from: skeptic54768
So, if an atheist were to tell me, "Only empirically proven things exist," then I would have to assume that atheists do not exist because I can't empirically prove that they are an atheist in the first place.
Atheists are not stupid enough to think that only things which have been empirically proven to exist can exist.  The universe is so large that there will always be many things that we can't empirically prove yet still exist.  For that matter, atheists are also not stupid enough to think that subjective things (preferences, tastes, etc) can be proven empirically to begin with.  You can't 'prove' that I like chocolate, or that I like peanut butter - you can only judge it based on my reactions to those foods.

However, a subjective belief can never prove that something objective exists.  Which is the problem, since most religious believers think their subjective belief reflects objective reality.

Quote from: skeptic54768
The sacrifice was his torment. He was tormented very badly.
According to the Bible.  However, the Bible doesn't prove that it actually happened.  It only shows that someone wrote about it happening - there's no objective evidence to prove that this torment ever actually happened (never mind the whole resurrection business).  All you have is your own subjective belief about what's written in the Bible.  But you can't prove that your belief is objectively true, anymore than someone else can prove that it's objectively false.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Animals are not making a choice to do that. That is how they were made. It is not murder when an animal does it. Only humans can murder. God can not murder either. It is only something humans can do. God just takes his children. It is not murder.
What, you think animals do not have volition?  You think animals don't make choices?  You think animals don't have morality of their own?  Maybe you should spend some time checking out recent animal research which indicates that animals do have morality (admittedly, a primitive form of morality) and that they do make choices.

We also see some kinds of animals exile members of their social group that act too viciously towards other members of that group (and kill them if they don't take the hint), which is a clear mirror of human tribal/social behavior.  Indeed, humans do exactly that, both long ago and today - if you act in a way that unnecessarily hurts other people of your social group, you're exiled from that group, or killed if you try to stick around.

Instead of reciting platitudes about how animals don't murder, you might want to spend some time thinking about the fact that even today, we have a large number of people who don't think of other humans as actual people.  For them, killing a "non-person" human is no more an act of murder than killing a dog or a horse would be.  And then you might want to think about the fact that the Old Testament treats most humans as non-persons, and thus whether it was the Hebrews or YHWH who killed these "non-people", it wasn't murder because their victims weren't actual people (according to them).  For that matter, it happened long after the New Testament was written - take the way dark-skinned humans were treated for hundreds of years.  They weren't actually considered people either, which is why they could be bought and sold as property, separated from their families, beaten, raped, and even killed by their masters with near-impunity.

Quote from: skeptic54768
In the same way the blood of the lamb (Jesus) keeps Yahweh from sending us to Hell.
Except it doesn't.  If it did, nobody in any religion would be threatened with Hell.  Yet there are plenty of Christian sects which state, unequivocally, that if you don't follow their particular rules (usually far above and beyond simply accepting the necessity of the "human sacrifice"), you're going to hell.  So no, it doesn't keep anyone from going to Hell.

Quote from: skeptic54768
With all due respect, I know the Bible very well. Christians are the ones who know the Bible. Taking advice on the Bible from an atheist doesn't make sense to me.
I seriously doubt you know it half as well as you think you do.  I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't know it a tenth as well as you think you do.  And that's because the vast majority of Christians don't actually read the Bible.  They just open it up when instructed to by a religious leader and read a few passages, then close it up until the next time they're told to open it.  And while not everyone is like that, most Christians who read the Bible on their own just focus on the New Testament, specifically Genesis, Exodus, the Gospels, and Acts, and cherry-pick the rest as needed.  So don't try to tell me that you know the Bible very well, because the odds are very much against you knowing very much about it at all.

Have you actually read the entire Bible, cover to cover?  Have you studied and seriously thought about everything written in it?  If the answer to either of those questions is no, you don't know the Bible all that well.

Quote from: skeptic54768
For example, if I wanted to know what Muslims believe, I'm gonna ask a Muslim, not a Jew.
Many atheists, at least in this country, are former Christians who started seriously reading the Bible (and I mean the whole Bible, not just a handful of books within it) when their faith wavered.  So you shouldn't dismiss their knowledge of the Bible just because you don't agree with the conclusions they ultimately came to, especially given the extremely high likelihood that you are much less familiar with the Bible than you think you are.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 16, 2013, 12:49:30 AM

skeptic54768, thank you for responding to my post :)

[size=78%]God repented after the Flood. He said it didn't do anything to wipe away all the sin. A God who actually apologizes to us, despite how wicked we are, is remarkable in my opinion. Shows His love for us.[/size]

So there's is a double standard then. God can kill/murder women, children, infants, babies in the womb, and he can just say "sorry" and it's all good but somehow we are given a "sin nature" and are (by design and default) on our way to hell due to the God thing creating us that way. How is this any different from superstition?



No way is it a double standard.

Is it a double standard for a judge to put someone in prison, yet we can't hold a criminal hostage in our basement?

Another false analogy here. Judges are held to the same standard anyone else is (i.e. - they cannot violate the law). In fact, under a citizens arrest you can hold a criminal against their will. However, this is aside from the point because we are discussing the analogy of a judge (i.e. - God) and the subjects (i.e. - us). Can a judge murder people and get away with it? Not under the law he can't, can he? Let's practice some intellectual honesty here now. If we are comparing apples to apples, then the God you believe exists must be held to the same moral standard we are. And yet what we find in the OT is quite the opposite. We find a moral monster who loves the smell of blood, endorses slavery, genocide, infanticide, stoning homosexuals and unruly children, and the list goes on. Why should we believe any of this ancient book is from a loving God?


Of course, I speak tongue in cheek of sorts b/c I don't think the bible is an authority on anything moral, let alone anything about deities, but I'm wondering why you accept it a moral authority with such a double standard (and heinous acts performed by God) in place. Islam has a very similar rationale for their moral compass you know.


I am curious where you get your morals. Is anything ever 100% right or 100% wrong?

If so, where does it come from?

if not, then all moral discussions & moral dilemmas are meaningless.
It's just whatever feels right to the person and that's that.

Well first, why did you just dodge my question and put a question to me like that? I'm glad to answer your question but it doesn't seem fair that I asked a question and you didn't answer. I asked: Why do you accept it [the bible] as a moral authority with such a double standard (and heinous acts performed by God) in place?


Now, pertaining to your question regarding my position on morality I will refer you to the below video (which pretty well spells out my position). However, you have presented a false dichotomy above (absolute morality or meaninglessness) and I reject that dichotomy as faulty. As a precursor though, I do not hold that morality applies where there are no minds, nor do I hold that morality is about pleasing/obeying some alleged invisible God thing. Furthermore, I also do not accept the flawed black and white thinking that we must "know for certain" specific moral truths in order to have morality (and this pertains to a definition of morality which has nothing to do with deities, ancient religious texts, etc). Perhaps this is where our disagreement may lie (and that's OK). I get my morality from a rational consideration of the consequences of my actions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk)

Yet, atheists do discuss moral dilemmas so I guess they must be believe things are objectively right and wrong. Otherwise, no discussion needed.

Actually, I partially agree with you here (at least if I understand you correctly). Some atheists do argue for an objective morality. However, the "objective" morality many of us non-believers discuss has to do with our definition of what morality is. In other words, if morality is about obeying/pleasing an invisible God then no, we don't think such a thing is real. However, if morality is about human well being, as many non-believers hold, then morality is objective in the sense that human well being can generally be measured and/or quantified (just as health/wellness can be quantified) - again, no absolute knowledge needed.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 01:51:55 AM
So there's is a double standard then. God can kill/murder women, children, infants, babies in the womb, and he can just say "sorry" and it's all good but somehow we are given a "sin nature" and are (by design and default) on our way to hell due to the God thing creating us that way. How is this any different from superstition?

God wanted sin out of the world. When it didn't work, He repented. But, God owes nothing to us. He was doing it out of kindness to eradicate sin. We didn't deserve it.

Another false analogy here. Judges are held to the same standard anyone else is (i.e. - they cannot violate the law). In fact, under a citizens arrest you can hold a criminal against their will. However, this is aside from the point because we are discussing the analogy of a judge (i.e. - God) and the subjects (i.e. - us). Can a judge murder people and get away with it? Not under the law he can't, can he? Let's practice some intellectual honesty here now. If we are comparing apples to apples, then the God you believe exists must be held to the same moral standard we are. And yet what we find in the OT is quite the opposite. We find a moral monster who loves the smell of blood, endorses slavery, genocide, infanticide, stoning homosexuals and unruly children, and the list goes on. Why should we believe any of this ancient book is from a loving God?

I already explained all that stuff. God gave people warning after warning after warning of His judgment and the people didn't care.

What should God have done?


Well first, why did you just dodge my question and put a question to me like that? I'm glad to answer your question but it doesn't seem fair that I asked a question and you didn't answer. I asked: Why do you accept it [the bible] as a moral authority with such a double standard (and heinous acts performed by God) in place? [/font]

Which heinous acts were performed by God?
What is your definition of heinous?
God is not heinous for bringing punishment upon the wicked. Every single one of us (including myself) deserves death. God created us, we belong to Him. He has the right to expect a certain standard from us.

Actually, I partially agree with you here (at least if I understand you correctly). Some atheists do argue for an objective morality. However, the "objective" morality many of us non-believers discuss has to do with our definition of what morality is. In other words, if morality is about obeying/pleasing an invisible God then no, we don't think such a thing is real. However, if morality is about human well being, as many non-believers hold, then morality is objective in the sense that human well being can generally be measured and/or quantified (just as health/wellness can be quantified) - again, no absolute knowledge needed.

If there is no God, why is promoting human well-being a good thing?
Isn't the human body nothing but a huge blob of chemicals and elements?

Cockroaches are blobs of chemicals and elements and we suffocate them to death with poison by the billions without a second thought.
Why is human life more valuable than cockroaches? Both are blobs of atoms.

 
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on October 16, 2013, 01:58:42 AM
I already explained all that stuff. God gave people warning after warning after warning of His judgment and the people didn't care.

What should God have done?


Ummm, made better people...
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 02:01:22 AM
Things will change tomorrow. We'll know more. Scientists are adding to our knowledge base on a daily basis. Building on the work of their predecessors or on the work they did last year, they are discovering more and more, and everything the discover buries religion a bit deeper every day. I know you don't want to believe that, because it would be frickin' inconvenient to have to deal with facts and stuff, but it remains true, no matter how confused you wish to stay.

I believe the Bible is the truth and it's inconvenient for some people to accept it, so they have to come up with a godless explanation to get around it.

Nobody wants to be told that they have rules to follow. People want to be their own God, their own boss, their own judge, own jury, own executioner. It's much easier to just accept that you have no responsibilities.

You know, if you are going to over-generalize, the least you can do be wrong right. And you are wrong wrong here. Your "own god" statement is so irrelevant to the discussion that you should have had google translate it into Mongolian  to emphasize that point. You are skipping around science by dissing it automatically and wondering why we don't do the same.

I have responsibilities. Tons of them. I accept them. I do my best to meet them. I don't use my atheism as an excuse to be a fool or an ass. I daresay I am far more moral in thought and action than many of the religious people I have known. My morals come from social constructs though, not religious ones, and you find that offensive. So, without even knowing a single thing about where I stand on relevant issues, you go to all the trouble of assuming I am irresponsible and my desire to be irresponsible drives my atheism, and in the process, you ignore any discussion about science because you don't know enough about it to make stuff up in that department.

We're not having a discussion, you are having an excuse-fest, and you think you're coming out on top.

Delusions will do that to a guy, I guess.

Quote
I guess we have to agree to disagree with the bold.

You can agree to disagree, but I'm not going to. Which means that there is no agreement. Which is fine with you because you don't intend to agree with anything anyway. But you're willing to relabel it for your own convenience. Because you don't mind participating poorly in discourse with others. Apparently.

I agree about that. I don't care if you do or not.

P.S. I've never read any books  by Dawkins, Hitchens or any other prominent atheist. Which means you have to come up with some other assumptions about me. I apologize about that. Maybe you could attack my height, or the color of my skin, or my liberal education, or my propensity to be a wise ass when confronting gross ignorance.

You should probably leave that last one alone though. You've already got me going in that department.

I am just trying to explain my views. I'm not making excuses or anything. I was not trying to attack you. if you are not one of those atheists who attacks others for their beliefs and makes fun of them for believing in God, then my post was not relevant to you.

Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 16, 2013, 02:03:17 AM
If there is no God, why is promoting human well-being a good thing?

If there is a god, why is promoting human well-being a good thing?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 02:04:01 AM
Ummm, made better people...

With free will? Because people will just choose to sin again. You can't just force them to only do good either. That would be meaningless. No spiritual growth could occur.

Nobody wants to go out with a man/woman if they were forced to go out with you. You want somebody who freely chose you.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 16, 2013, 02:06:01 AM
With free will? Because people will just choose to sin again. You can't just force them to only do good either. That would be meaningless. No spiritual growth could occur.

You say that free will makes sin inevitable.

"God" is supposedly all-knowing.

"God" supposedly gave us free will.

Therefore, "God" knew that we would sin from the start.  It was a part of the plan.

According to you, anyway.  I won't be surprised if you go and disagree with yourself now.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 02:07:08 AM
If there is no God, why is promoting human well-being a good thing?

If there is a god, why is promoting human well-being a good thing?

To preach the Gospel peacefully and give people as much time as they need to repent and accept Jesus.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 16, 2013, 02:08:04 AM
If there is no God, why is promoting human well-being a good thing?

If there is a god, why is promoting human well-being a good thing?

To preach the Gospel peacefully and give people as much time as they need to repent and accept Jesus.

Did you mean to answer a different post?  I asked why promoting human well-being is a good thing, if a god exists.  Your answer had nothing to do with that question.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 02:14:59 AM
You say that free will makes sin inevitable.

"God" is supposedly all-knowing.

"God" supposedly gave us free will.

Therefore, "God" knew that we would sin from the start.  It was a part of the plan.

According to you, anyway.  I won't be surprised if you go and disagree with yourself now.

You have it backwards.

It wasn't part of the Plan. God made the Plan because of sin.

He made the Plan before we sinned though because He knew we were going to sin.

People confuse omniscience causes our choices. But, this is backwards.
Our choices cause God's omniscience.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 02:17:42 AM
If there is no God, why is promoting human well-being a good thing?

If there is a god, why is promoting human well-being a good thing?

To preach the Gospel peacefully and give people as much time as they need to repent and accept Jesus.

Did you mean to answer a different post?  I asked why promoting human well-being is a good thing, if a god exists.  Your answer had nothing to do with that question.

That is the answer. It is important to promote well-being because if we just went around killing each other, we might kill someone who will end up in Hell. A peaceful existence ensures that people have as long a life as they can to accept Jesus.

What is the incentive to promote well-being if there is no god? Nobody promotes the well-being of cockroaches.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 16, 2013, 02:20:57 AM
You have it backwards.

It wasn't part of the Plan. God made the Plan because of sin.

...which he supposedly knew about.  That makes it a part of the plan.  Something taken into account.

He made the Plan before we sinned though because He knew we were going to sin.

He knew that, because he knew how free will would work, and he went ahead and enacted this plan anyway.  That means that sin was a part of the plan.

You have agreed with me, while stating that you disagree with me.  As I expected, you disagreed with yourself.

People confuse omniscience causes our choices. But, this is backwards.
Our choices cause God's omniscience.

This is off-topic.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 16, 2013, 02:23:37 AM
That is the answer. It is important to promote well-being because if we just went around killing each other, we might kill someone who will end up in Hell. A peaceful existence ensures that people have as long a life as they can to accept Jesus.

But "Hell" is basically an ultimate form of unwell-being[1], right?  So that's a circular answer.  You're saying that we should promote human well-being because it will help promote human well-being.  Why is human well-being a good thing in the first place, with or without a god?

What is the incentive to promote well-being if there is no god? Nobody promotes the well-being of cockroaches.

The incentive stems from our personal values.  Except for when it doesn't.  This is true with or without any gods.  It's how people actually operate.
 1. Ultimate lack of well being, ultimate poor-being, however you want to word it.  The negation of well-being.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 02:24:58 AM
He knew that, because he knew how free will would work, and he went ahead and enacted this plan anyway.  That means that sin was a part of the plan.

I am confused.

Are you asking me why God did something that He knew He would do?

How could He not do it if He knew He would do it?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 02:28:45 AM
But "Hell" is basically an ultimate form of unwell-being[1], right?  So that's a circular answer.  You're saying that we should promote human well-being because it will help promote human well-being.  Why is human well-being a good thing in the first place, with or without a god?
 1. Ultimate lack of well being, ultimate poor-being, however you want to word it.  The negation of well-being.

God wants people in Heaven, not Hell. Why would He want us to kill people who may have not accepted the Gospel yet? That is against God's moral character.


The incentive stems from our personal values.
  Except for when it doesn't.  This is true with or without any gods.  It's how people actually operate.

Yikes! Hitler had personal values too: Jews no different from coackroaches.
Scary thought if that is where our morals come from.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 16, 2013, 02:30:01 AM
I am confused.

Disagreeing with yourself does that.

Are you asking me why God did something that He knew He would do?

Do you see a question mark at the end of the quote in question?

How could He not do it if He knew He would do it?

By also knowing how he could do something else, and doing that something else.  Or does he not know that sort of thing?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 16, 2013, 02:33:05 AM
God wants people in Heaven, not Hell. Why would He want us to kill people who may have not accepted the Gospel yet? That is against God's moral character.

So god wants people in heaven...so he makes other religions, bad people and atheists?
The irony here.

Yikes! Hitler had personal values too: Jews no different from coackroaches.
Scary thought if that is where our morals come from.

It is sad that people have immoral personal values, yes.
But you see, most people actually like being nice, live and let live and what not.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 16, 2013, 02:34:14 AM
God wants people in Heaven, not Hell. Why would He want us to kill people who may have not accepted the Gospel yet? That is against God's moral character.

But that's not what we were talking about.  I was asking you why promoting human well-being was a good thing.  You've yet to answer that question, except to say that it's good because it promotes human well-being.  Okay...but why is that a worthy goal in the first place?  You're going off on irrelevant tangents.  Focus, man!

Yikes! Hitler had personal values too: Jews no different from coackroaches.
Scary thought if that is where our morals come from.

It is scary indeed.  But whether or not it's scary has no bearing on its truth.  Keep in mind that this is true whether or not your god exists.  It is how all people, including yourself, actually operate.  Your personal values apparently include a positive moral evaluation of your idea of your god.  I'd venture a guess that you and your idea of god are in agreement on all moral questions?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 02:37:16 AM
It is sad that people have immoral personal values, yes.
But you see, most people actually like being nice, live and let live and what not.

How can they be immoral personal values if personal values are the basis for atheistic morality?

Hitler's personal values were "destroy the Jews and make a super race."

Your personal values are "live and let live."

I'm not seeing an objective way to determine which one is moral or immoral. I am just hearing a personal opinion.

The best you can say is, "Everyone has their own opinion."
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 16, 2013, 02:44:43 AM
How can they be immoral personal values if personal values are the basis for atheistic morality?

They're the basis for theistic morality, too.  The agreement or disagreement with a particular god's values is personal.  The existence of a god does not change the personal nature of values.  This isn't an atheistic idea, it's a bare fact.

Hitler's personal values were "destroy the Jews and make a super race."

Your personal values are "live and let live."

I'm not seeing an objective way to determine which one is moral or immoral. I am just hearing a personal opinion.

The best you can say is, "Everyone has their own opinion."

A god does not change this.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 16, 2013, 02:54:38 AM
God wanted sin out of the world. When it didn't work, He repented. But, God owes nothing to us. He was doing it out of kindness to eradicate sin. We didn't deserve it.
Huh? A supposedly all-powerful and all-knowing God wanted sin "out of the world" and yet his first plan (killing nearly everyone in genocide) "didn't work"? How does this make any sense at all? How can anything "not work" for an all-powerful God who always gets his way (allegedly)? Does anything happen that does not go according to this God's will under your theology? I might refer you to Romans 9 here.

Secondly, your response does not deal with the objection I raised (i.e. - that there is a double standard where God violates his own rules). An all-powerful God would not need to violate his own 'commandments' in order to rid sin from the world. Of course (and again), I don't think there is such a thing as "sin" but even if there were this theology still makes no rational sense at all. It's just hear-say. You've read it in the bible and you believe it. Why? 

I already explained all that stuff. God gave people warning after warning after warning of His judgment and the people didn't care.

What should God have done?

Well first, fictional characters cannot do anything. But for the sake of this discussion an "all-powerful" deity God thing could have done any number of corrective actions besides slaughtering women, children, and infants in the womb. For starters, show up in some form (stop being invisible), reside among everyone for as long as it takes and be a teacher/example, not a dictatorial tyrannical moral monster (and no, the "freewill" argument doesn't work here b/c Satan and 1/2 the angels supposedly had freewill and saw God all the time). An Omnimax God (who was also all-knowing) wouldn't need to murder anyone who went astray or cut unborn children from the womb. He could easily correct things peacefully (b/c he's all-powerful). As others have noted, the fact that you can think such actions as the mass slaughtering of children  by this God are OK is disgusting and vile in the least. How could you even, for one second, think that a God like this is worthy of any worship or respect whatsoever?


Which heinous acts were performed by God?
What is your definition of heinous?
God is not heinous for bringing punishment upon the wicked. Every single one of us (including myself) deserves death. God created us, we belong to Him. He has the right to expect a certain standard from us.

No, he doesn't (even if he exists) and that's what you are missing (which is why I earlier asked what standard you are using to determine that God is "good"). Are you admitting that God can be a hypocrite? If God can "do whatever" (i.e. - change the rules) then 1) your bible contradicts itself b/c it says he doesn't change, 2) he is not love b/c love clearly does not slaughter infants, and 3) you have no way of knowing if God is actually good or not b/c you are accepting that God can change the rules at anytime. For all you know, what you think is God is actually a demon deceiving you. How would you know? This looks identical to credulity and gullibility.

Now, dictators do not have rights over others just b/c they have power. Power does not equal "right". In other words, what you've just described is "might makes right" and that is a fallacy (especially when the bible exhibits a hypocritical God who violates his own commands). Mothers, for example, are more powerful then their babies. Does this give them the right to kill their children? If we are to be "Christ-like", and Christ is God, then we are to be God-like. But how can you be God-like when this God has contradicted itself over and over in the bible (saying one thing and doing another). It's the old, "Do what I say, not what I do" hypocrisy. And you call this God good? How and why?


If there is no God, why is promoting human well-being a good thing?

Because we value human life (namely our own lives and our own happiness and health). There is nothing more needed than that.


Isn't the human body nothing but a huge blob of chemicals and elements?

Cockroaches are blobs of chemicals and elements and we suffocate them to death with poison by the billions without a second thought.
Why is human life more valuable than cockroaches? Both are blobs of atoms.


I know this line of reasoning very well, b/c I used to use it on non-believers when I was a Christian apologist debating online for nearly 15 years. We are not "nothing but" anything. That view is extremely reductionist. We are living beings with the capacity to reason, love, understand, learn, experience, innovate, play music, and be happy. And the finite nature of life makes it infinitely valuable (not less). Just because you've heard in your circles that "life is meaningless without God" doesn't make it true. See my OP on this subject here: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25463.0/topicseen.html (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25463.0/topicseen.html)

We human beings value life, subjectively, and just because someone claims that life has "objective" meaning doesn't mean that it does (anymore than merely claiming that unicorns exist is true in virtue of someone claiming it). The notion that if there is no 'cosmic meaning' then there cannot be any meaning at all is fallacious (fallacy of division). The "meaning" you give to your life is your choice, regardless of whether there is a cosmic meaning.





Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 16, 2013, 03:12:51 AM
Every single one of us (including myself) deserves death.

What moral authority do you have to either declare this, or to assign someone else the authority to declare this?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 16, 2013, 03:18:16 AM
Ummm, made better people...
With free will? Because people will just choose to sin again. You can't just force them to only do good either. That would be meaningless. No spiritual growth could occur.

Nobody wants to go out with a man/woman if they were forced to go out with you. You want somebody who freely chose you.

An Omnimax (all-powerful) and all-knowing God could effortlessly look into the future, see whom of his creation would not "sin" and only create them (instead of slaughtering babies and practicing blood lust) - or the deity could just stop hiding (unlike a childhood invisible friend) and be our teacher/mentor, etc. It sounds like you accepted this stuff prior to giving it any real good critical thought or investigation. Am I right?

God wants people in Heaven, not Hell. Why would He want us to kill people who may have not accepted the Gospel yet? That is against God's moral character.

A couple things. First, God's "moral character" in the bible is not anything we can know (b/c this God can violate it's own rules like a dictator). So you have no reliable way of determining if this God is good b/c you've already admitted that you are willing to go along with anything you believe this thing says (even if it violates what the thing said before - aka don't murder, etc).

Secondly, if God really wanted all people to be in heaven (he "wishes that none should perish" etc) then they would be there - b/c he's all-powerful, and by definition all-powerful beings can get what they want no matter what. This is quite a conundrum you are in b/c it clearly contradicts your theological beliefs. You can either admit that God is not all-powerful (a sad story) saving the claim that some don't get into heaven b/c God can't get them there, or you can hold that God is all-powerful but actually wishes (and "plans") that some do not go to heaven (which is stated in Romans chapter 9 btw). But you can't have it both ways. This is why Calvinism exists.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 16, 2013, 04:06:54 AM
How can they be immoral personal values if personal values are the basis for atheistic morality?

Are you seriously going to start that all atheists cannot tell moral from immoral?
I, as an atheist know not to murder jews, i came to the conclusion from others and my own common sense.
People like Hitler are, simply put, assholes who have no care for others.

Hitler's personal values were "destroy the Jews and make a super race."

Indeed they were, so one single man being insane means all atheists are?
In that case i would like to say that good old Hitler was actually a christian, funny no?

Your personal values are "live and let live."

Good, as is everyone else who is not insane...maybe excluding Nam  ;).

I'm not seeing an objective way to determine which one is moral or immoral. I am just hearing a personal opinion.

People have, for thousands of years, gained behavioral traits and started the single most advanced civilization on earth, and you cannot tell moral from immoral without a fictional book written god knows when?
This frightens me...

The best you can say is, "Everyone has their own opinion."

Funny, as i never said that...ever.
Although opinions do have a role in morals.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: naemhni on October 16, 2013, 05:47:47 AM
I am assuming that atheists are not big on the quality of forgiveness?

You need to be very, very careful when making assumptions about atheists.  The only thing we all have in common is lack of belief in deities.  Beyond that, however, you cannot assume that all atheists share a particular viewpoint on anything -- forgiveness, bigfoot, gun control, death penalty, musical preference, sexual orientation, anything.  It is true that most of us have a strong interest in science and place a strong emphasis on use of the scientific method to understand the world, but even there, there are some exceptions.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: naemhni on October 16, 2013, 05:58:36 AM
These are a lot of responses. I have read them all but I do not have all the time in the world to respond to them all. I did not know this forum moves so quickly.

It normally doesn't.  The problem you're encountering here is a common one: we don't get many believers here, so when one does show up, he ends up getting a lot of responses to his posts.  If you do need time to respond, just say you're feeling overwhelmed, as you've done here, and we'll be patient.  I, for one, have a lot of other things to do, and I know I'm not the only one, so we can keep checking back.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Dante on October 16, 2013, 07:15:12 AM
Hey skepticdude, I'm still waiting. You've painted yourself into a corner, and I'd like to see one of two things from you.

Either intellectual honesty, or horrible mental gymnastics.

What's it gonna be?


God didn't create anyone with sin. He gave us a choice. We didn't listen. Every day people choose to sin.

Parent tells their child, "no cookies before dinner." The child eats a cookie and gets punished. Blame the parent for making up the rule or the child for not listening?

Then really, how do you answer Anfauglir's posting below?

Jesus was part of god since the beginning, so in his omniscience he knew right from the beginning that his sacrifice would have been necessary.  Which means that before man was created, Yahweh knew they would fail, Yahweh knew the flood would not work, knew at every intervention he made in the world that it would fail, so.......

Um.

Sorry, I think my apologetics just failed.  If (as 54768 claims) "Jesus knew he would be resurrected since the beginning of time", then Jesus/god knew before mankind was created that a sacrifice would be necessary.  Knew before Adam, before Eden, before the serpent, that mankind would fall.

And, knowing that, Yahweh created things anyway.  KNOWING that creating the serpent would lead to mankind's fall, Yahweh created it and allowed it into the garden.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on October 16, 2013, 09:31:40 AM
Were an omnipotent and loving God that was our creator to really exist, it would be deeply offended by what the scriptures have depicted it as.

How do you know that? Did you just make up your own God?
no but you have
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 09:42:55 AM
You say that free will makes sin inevitable.

"God" is supposedly all-knowing.

"God" supposedly gave us free will.

Therefore, "God" knew that we would sin from the start.  It was a part of the plan.

According to you, anyway.  I won't be surprised if you go and disagree with yourself now.

You have it backwards.

It wasn't part of the Plan. God made the Plan because of sin.

He made the Plan before we sinned though because He knew we were going to sin.

People confuse omniscience causes our choices. But, this is backwards.
Our choices cause God's omniscience.

You just contradicted yourself in the same breath. Congratulations! What is your prize, you may ask? 2nd place Idiot trophy. Why not 1st? You took to long for my enjoyment.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on October 16, 2013, 09:52:46 AM
Ummm, made better people...

With free will? Because people will just choose to sin again. You can't just force them to only do good either. That would be meaningless. No spiritual growth could occur.

Nobody wants to go out with a man/woman if they were forced to go out with you. You want somebody who freely chose you.

Why is it that god-given free will is so readily available in minor instances, like dating, but not available when one is being raped and murdered, blown up by a drone, run over by a drunk driver, squished in an earthquake or being stoned to death by fellow muslims? Why is god-given free will both of ultimate import and so easily trampled on/taken away?

Did you know that leaded gasoline caused behavioral problems in people for over half a century, and its effects and hence crime rates, are now decreasing because the use of leaded fuels has stopped and the lead levels in human bodies are slowly decreasing? What sort of free will does a mind/body unwittingly poisoned by lead have?

If god wants little Charlie to freely choose him, but at age 3, way too soon for little Charlie to be making life decisions, his drunken father smashes him over the head with a baseball bat and kills him, what free will did the little boy have? How relevant was it? Why did the father's free have so much bearing on his child's sudden lack of it? Are such imbalances typical of your god, or merely a byproduct of inadequate and oversimplified human rationalizations about variations in behavior?

If your god both puts high value/priority on his god-given free will be does nothing to protect it in an individual (i.e., protect people from external forces that violate individual god-given free will to the extent that it is no longer viable), then it is an irrelevant issue. If god-given free will is both of ultimate importance and easily disposable, then it cannot be considered a useful method of determining individual worthiness. If a twenty pound little girl being simultaneously raped and smothered by a 350 pound rapist has no choice in the matter, then your placing a high value on free will is merely an excuse, an oversimplified explanation as to why people aren't as perfect as we all wish they were. And an excuse for you to accuse others of being less perfect than you, rather than an incentive for you to help to find solutions to totally human problems.

The religious appear to have to keep things simple. One cannot espouse the existence of a god and relate his or her deity to reality without pretending not only that there is a god, but also that said god is viable, relevant, pertinent and helpful.

Made up stuff barely works in movies and books. It never works in real life. Not if one wants real answers and real solutions. Look at what the fantasies of the tea party are doing to American politics. The religious do the same thing every day with their useless notions. Such as free will and its relation to their god. Get over it. We have societies to fix. That can't happen when 70% of the people live down a rabbit hole.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: jaimehlers on October 16, 2013, 10:39:07 AM
This was a response to median, but I have my own take on it.

God wanted sin out of the world. When it didn't work, He repented. But, God owes nothing to us. He was doing it out of kindness to eradicate sin. We didn't deserve it.
What makes you think this 'sin' stuff ever existed in the first place?  I'm quite serious here - saying that God only acted against sin, out of kindness to the thousands or millions of people he presumably slaughtered, is sounding like you're trying to make excuses for behavior which is beyond atrocious.  Would you offer such a rationale on behalf of Hitler[1], or other mass murderers in history?  Or would you condemn them like the monsters they were?

Quote from: skeptic54768
I already explained all that stuff. God gave people warning after warning after warning of His judgment and the people didn't care.

What should God have done?
How about deciding not to exterminate millions of "human-shaped animals" with fire, flood, angels of death, or whatever, in the first place, and instructing his followers not to do so on his behalf later on?  Instead of causing or instigating all those deaths, which he actually did do according to the Bible which you claim to know fairly well.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Which heinous acts were performed by God?
How complete of a list do you want?  Just to name a few off the top of my head:  The flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and instructing his followers to genocide the inhabitants of Canaan.  Forget the excuses for why he did these things - anyone can come up with excuses to justify the unjustifiable.  Judge it by the results.

The flood?  Supposedly to eradicate 'sin'.  The result?  Thousands or millions of humans (never mind plant and animal species, which by your definition are 'innocent') dead, but 'sin' still present and accounted for.

Sodom and Gomorrah?  Supposedly to eradicate local hotspots of 'sin'.  The result?  Thousands of humans dead, and 'sin' not even affected.

The genocide of Canaan?  Supposedly to clear out the land for his "chosen people".  The result?  Thousands of humans, the true owners and residents of the land, murdered, the survivors (virgin girls) raped and enslaved...and the Hebrews themselves get culled and conquered repeatedly by their neighbors, and eventually evicted from the land they conquered.

YHWH does not seem to be particularly intelligent, never mind competent.  He keeps doing the same thing and expecting different results.

Quote from: skeptic54768
What is your definition of heinous?
Oh, that's how you're going to play this?  Okay, very simply, heinous means a vile, odious, or wicked act.

Quote from: skeptic54768
God is not heinous for bringing punishment upon the wicked. Every single one of us (including myself) deserves death. God created us, we belong to Him. He has the right to expect a certain standard from us.
Even if the people YHWH decided to kill actually were wicked (which is in no way confirmed, as they aren't around now to tell their sides of the story), their 'wickedness' couldn't possibly justify his own against them.  Never mind this nonsense about every human deserving death - that's sounds like propaganda from a Stockholm Syndrome sufferer.

Even if YHWH did actually create humanity - which, you will note, is in no way proved - it wouldn't give him ownership rights.  It wouldn't give him the right to slaughter humans by the thousands or millions.  And it wouldn't give him the right to dictate some arbitrary standard of behavior.  If he wanted possessions, then he should have stuck to making TVs or something like that, because TVs don't think, they don't act on their own, they just do what they're told and if they get broken, you either fix them or throw them out and get a new one.  But living creatures are fundamentally different than that.  When parents create a child, they can try to assert ownership rights, tell the child that it deserves death at their hands but in their kindness they're letting it live, and so on - but we would consider such people utterly heinous and wicked.  Why give YHWH a bye?

Quote from: skeptic54768
If there is no God, why is promoting human well-being a good thing?
Isn't the human body nothing but a huge blob of chemicals and elements?
You're not doing a very good job of impressing me with your skepticism - you're just parroting the typical religious arguments regarding how you can't have morality without a god to provide it.  I guess you're just skeptical of things that you personally disagree with?  Well, anyone can do that.  It takes a lot more oomph to be skeptical of things you agree with.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Cockroaches are blobs of chemicals and elements and we suffocate them to death with poison by the billions without a second thought.
Why is human life more valuable than cockroaches? Both are blobs of atoms.
You really haven't thought this through, have you?

There's a basic, fundamental flaw in your "blob of atoms" argument, and you can't even see it.  You know how amazing it is that a "blob of atoms" can move around and do things on its own, whether it's a human or an insect?  Thinking of things as "blobs of atoms" actually gives one a greater respect for life, because you quickly realize that this all came about through purely natural means, rather than a god doing magic and making things live.  It's all interconnected, a mutually-supporting web of life.  You don't get that through believing in a god which poofed everything into existence, because that god is separate and aloof from what it creates.
 1. He was only acting against the crimes of the Jews who ensured that Germany lost WWI, and he orchestrated the slaughter of millions out of kindness to the people of Germany, so they'd never have to deal with the vile conspiracy of the inhuman Jews again.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: screwtape on October 16, 2013, 10:52:49 AM
God owes nothing to us.

Ahhhhh, there it is. 

This is why yhwh broke the covenant with Job - he owed Job nothing.  But expected everything in return.

This is why you cannot assume he would not want you to murder your own children - he owes us nothing.  But he expects everything in return.

This is why you cannot count on yhwh living up to the new covenant - he owes us nothing.  But he expects everything in return.

You cannot count on jesus H's sacrifice - he owes us nothing. But he expects everything in return.

You cannot count on the "new" covenant - he owes us nothing.  That includes living up to the deals he made.  But he expects everything in return.

You could be a devout jesus follower, accept everything jesus H has to offer, follow all the rules, and do everything asked.  Then die and still find yourself in hell because he owes you nothing.  But he expects everything in return.

Even if god were an actual deity, he would be like Darth Vader in Empire Strikes Back, telling Lando he changed the deal, pray he does not change it further. 

You should have the good sense to see yhwh would be a pernicious deity, if real. 
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 16, 2013, 12:24:25 PM
skeptic54768,
The major outright contradiction in your theology is the idea that God is "good". Due to the fact that you have indicated that God can do whatever he wants (slaughter women/children, etc) this does not square with the doctrine of God's "promises" to his people, does it? The bible teaches that God has made promises to both his people and those who will become believers in 'Jesus'. Yet, we've already seen that God can change his mind at anytime and violate his own moral code. So what is to stop this God from breaking his promise? Doesn't he own everything according to you? Isn't he the big boss who can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, how ever he wants with his 'creation'? If so, then you can't be sure that this God has your back whatsoever, can you? Especially since he has already broken his own rules and demonstrated hypocrisy.

But you know what the funny part is? This kind of rhetoric is a classic sign of HUMAN INVENTION (not a loving eternal God), and we have lots of examples of it throughout history.

GOD'S PROMISES
Subject to change at anytime, without notice because God owns you

Psalm 145:13-14
13Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and your dominion endures through all generations. The LORD is faithful to all his promises and loving toward all he has made [unless you do something bad and then all bets are off]. 14The LORD upholds all those who fall and lifts up all who are bowed down [unless...].

Genesis 12:3 - And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed [unless you disobey and then you're cursed and I will send armies to slaughter you and plagues to make you sick]

James 1:12 (#14 of 15 Bible Verses about God's Promises)
12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him [unless God changes his mind as he's done before]

1 John 2:24-25
24See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us-even eternal life [unless he changes the rules b/c he's God our slave Master].


Getting back to the OP, this idea of Jesus/God being a 'sacrifice' for us is also bogus for the reason stated above. Even if it were true that we needed a sacrifice (and I don't believe it is) under your theology God could still pull the bait and switch card on us and change his mind (because of course we are his property, right?). So again, it doesn't seem that you have a leg to stand on here when it comes to claiming that 1) God is good, 2) God has our backs, or 3) we needed some 'sacrifice' for anything. Fiction really has a tendency to makes things difficult like that.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Astreja on October 16, 2013, 12:33:07 PM
You could be a devout jesus follower, accept everything jesus H has to offer, follow all the rules, and do everything asked.  Then die and still find yourself in hell because he owes you nothing.  But he expects everything in return.

^^^ This.  I think it's frightfully naïve to trust a god that would create a hell in the first place.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 16, 2013, 12:57:37 PM
You could be a devout jesus follower, accept everything jesus H has to offer, follow all the rules, and do everything asked.  Then die and still find yourself in hell because he owes you nothing.  But he expects everything in return.

The bible actually supports this idea quite clearly:

Matthew 7:21-23 -21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So, you can devote your entire life to this thing and wind up finding out that you aren't part of God's "elect". What's even scarier is that this God can change the rules at anytime, switch the definitions of words, or change his whims (just like he did in the OT) and you're screwed regardless. This entire concept (and it's surrounding claims) are quite clearly not from a perfect God - but from imperfect, credulous, men (just like we see in hundreds of other man made religions throughout history).
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 12:58:54 PM
Someone needs to go to the "test area". ;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 01:11:07 PM
You could be a devout jesus follower, accept everything jesus H has to offer, follow all the rules, and do everything asked.  Then die and still find yourself in hell because he owes you nothing.  But he expects everything in return.

The bible actually supports this idea quite clearly:

Matthew 7:21-23 -21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So, you can devote your entire life to this thing and wind up finding out that you aren't part of God's "elect". What's even scarier is that this God can change the rules at anytime, switch the definitions of words, or change his whims (just like he did in the OT) and you're screwed regardless. This entire concept (and it's surrounding claims) are quite clearly not from a perfect God - but from imperfect, credulous, men (just like we see in hundreds of other man made religions throughout history).

This thing is it's very easy to go to Heaven: Accept Jesus as your savior and try and live like Him. The verse was talking about people who are following demonic doctrines instead of Jesus.

Plenty of people think they are worshiping God, but they are following a false religion. Since I am not following a false religion, I am not one of those people that the verse is speaking about.

This is just the way it is. I have lead many people away from their false churches. I can only be the messenger.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 01:12:24 PM
You could be a devout jesus follower, accept everything jesus H has to offer, follow all the rules, and do everything asked.  Then die and still find yourself in hell because he owes you nothing.  But he expects everything in return.

^^^ This.  I think it's frightfully naïve to trust a god that would create a hell in the first place.

If you were God, what would your punishments be for wicked people?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 01:13:19 PM
I have never met a Christian, in the US, who lives or attempts to live like Jesus. You're definitely not one, if you were you wouldn't be here talking to us.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 01:17:26 PM
God owes nothing to us.

Ahhhhh, there it is. 

This is why yhwh broke the covenant with Job - he owed Job nothing.  But expected everything in return.

This is why you cannot assume he would not want you to murder your own children - he owes us nothing.  But he expects everything in return.

This is why you cannot count on yhwh living up to the new covenant - he owes us nothing.  But he expects everything in return.

You cannot count on jesus H's sacrifice - he owes us nothing. But he expects everything in return.

You cannot count on the "new" covenant - he owes us nothing.  That includes living up to the deals he made.  But he expects everything in return.

You could be a devout jesus follower, accept everything jesus H has to offer, follow all the rules, and do everything asked.  Then die and still find yourself in hell because he owes you nothing.  But he expects everything in return.

Even if god were an actual deity, he would be like Darth Vader in Empire Strikes Back, telling Lando he changed the deal, pray he does not change it further. 

You should have the good sense to see yhwh would be a pernicious deity, if real.

You are 100% correct that God owes us nothing. But out of his kindness and mercy, He is doing something for us.

Nobody forced God to do this. He chose to do it for us. Imagine a serial killer was about to be shot on the street by a pedestrian and you jumped in front of the serial killer and took the bullet for him and he got away. That would be extreme kindness and mercy on your part. But most people would rightfully think, "Why do I wanna save that wicked man? Let him die."
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 16, 2013, 01:18:15 PM
If you were God, what would your punishments be for wicked people?

Wicked like the kids who grow up without Christianity around them, and thus don't become Christian?  Wicked like a child who was raped and murdered by her dad's friend before she could even have a chance to accept Christ?

Folks like those wouldn't get any punishment at all.  What would your punishment be for such wicked people?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 16, 2013, 01:19:53 PM
You are 100% correct that God owes us nothing. But out of his kindness and mercy, He is doing something for us.

His treatment of Job was done out of kindness and mercy?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 01:20:02 PM
I have never met a Christian, in the US, who lives or attempts to live like Jesus. You're definitely not one, if you were you wouldn't be here talking to us.

-Nam

How so?

We are commanded to spread the Gospel and defend our faith against doubters. The Gospel has just about reached all the ends of the Earth, like Jesus predicted. No mass communication in those days and yet the prediction came true of the whole world knowing about Jesus. This is part of the reason I know the Bible is divine: The prophecies are coming true before our eyes.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Dante on October 16, 2013, 01:21:42 PM
If you were God, what would your punishments be for wicked people?

How about reformation, rehabilitation, and education? How about empathy? How about the punishment fit the crime?

And, if the punishment should fit the crime, there are no crimes worthy of ETERNAL TORTURE!
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 01:22:07 PM
If you were God, what would your punishments be for wicked people?

Wicked like the kids who grow up without Christianity around them, and thus don't become Christian?  Wicked like a child who was raped and murdered by her dad's friend before she could even have a chance to accept Christ?

Folks like those wouldn't get any punishment at all.  What would your punishment be for such wicked people?

There is an age of accountability. Before that age, all children go to Heaven. 

God just doesn't like it when you hear the Gospel after that age and consciously reject it out of free will.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: William on October 16, 2013, 01:24:53 PM
Imagine a serial killer was about to be shot on the street by a pedestrian and you jumped in front of the serial killer and took the bullet for him and he got away. That would be extreme kindness and mercy on your part.

That's cause bullets actually work on people - so it would be a sacrifice.  In God's case (i.e. Jesus) not even a crucifixion could kill him permanently.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 01:25:27 PM
If you were God, what would your punishments be for wicked people?

How about reformation, rehabilitation, and education? How about empathy? How about the punishment fit the crime?

And, if the punishment should fit the crime, there are no crimes worthy of ETERNAL TORTURE!

how would that stuff have worked on Pharoah? He was worshipping demons who had him sitting pretty. No education or rehabilitation from the true God was going to change his mind. He was literally rejoicing in sin.

Can't tell you how many times I've heard people say, "if God were real, I'd want to kill him." No education or reformation will change these people's minds.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 01:25:45 PM
I have never met a Christian, in the US, who lives or attempts to live like Jesus. You're definitely not one, if you were you wouldn't be here talking to us.

-Nam

How so?

We are commanded to spread the Gospel and defend our faith against doubters. The Gospel has just about reached all the ends of the Earth, like Jesus predicted. No mass communication in those days and yet the prediction came true of the whole world knowing about Jesus. This is part of the reason I know the Bible is divine: The prophecies are coming true before our eyes.

You're commanded to spread the gospel to yourselves not us. See, your book sees us as "darkness", and you're the "light", and what does the light have in common with the darkness? You need to read your Bible, you obviously haven't.

When you have you may have a better shot at going against some of us but I highly doubt it.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 16, 2013, 01:29:54 PM
There is an age of accountability. Before that age, all children go to Heaven.

No there isn't.  At least, not in the Bible.  Either way, what if someone grows up to age 40 without hearing the "gospel"?  They're clearly past any age of accountability you might have invented as an excuse.  So, what punishment would you hand out to such a person?  Own up to your own religious bloodlust already.

God just doesn't like it when you hear the Gospel after that age and consciously reject it out of free will.

I don't reject it out of free will.  I just don't find the idea that it's true to be convincing.

I can't choose whether or not to find it convincing.  It either is, or it isn't.  Folks like you make it seem a lot less so.  You actively discredit your faith, and can only drive people away from it.  Or at least, that's the effect you're actually having on me.  Is it the effect you intended to have?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 16, 2013, 01:31:25 PM
how would that stuff have worked on Pharoah?

Probably about as well as when YHWH hardened his heart to prevent him from letting the Hebrews go.

Read your own holy book for once.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 01:36:49 PM
I have never met a Christian, in the US, who lives or attempts to live like Jesus. You're definitely not one, if you were you wouldn't be here talking to us.

-Nam

How so?

We are commanded to spread the Gospel and defend our faith against doubters. The Gospel has just about reached all the ends of the Earth, like Jesus predicted. No mass communication in those days and yet the prediction came true of the whole world knowing about Jesus. This is part of the reason I know the Bible is divine: The prophecies are coming true before our eyes.

You're commanded to spread the gospel to yourselves not us. See, your book sees us as "darkness", and you're the "light", and what does the light have in common with the darkness? You need to read your Bible, you obviously haven't.

When you have you may have a better shot at going against some of us but I highly doubt it.

-Nam

No, that is not true at all.

Jesus ate and drank with the people rejoicing in sin. When asked why jesus said "Those who are well have no need of a physician."

Same with the story of the missing sheep. If a man has 100 sheep and one goes missing, does he not leave the other 99 sheep to go find the lost sheep?

If you view this as preaching, I apologize but I believe I had to cite the Bible here because Jesus answered your question.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 01:40:53 PM
No there isn't.  At least, not in the Bible.  Either way, what if someone grows up to age 40 without hearing the "gospel"?  They're clearly past any age of accountability you might have invented as an excuse.  So, what punishment would you hand out to such a person?  Own up to your own religious bloodlust already.

I have no idea what the punishment is for those people. What I do know is that God put his moral compass engraved on our hearts. So if a person never heard of Jesus, then the person could still be following Jesus based on his heart.

I don't reject it out of free will.  I just don't find the idea that it's true to be convincing.

I can't choose whether or not to find it convincing.  It either is, or it isn't.  Folks like you make it seem a lot less so.  You actively discredit your faith, and can only drive people away from it.  Or at least, that's the effect you're actually having on me.  Is it the effect you intended to have?

I am sorry if you feel that way but I can not control who accepts or denies the faith. I can only explain my viewpoint.

Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 01:44:32 PM
how would that stuff have worked on Pharoah?

Probably about as well as when YHWH hardened his heart to prevent him from letting the Hebrews go.

Read your own holy book for once.

There are apologetic websites that deal with this issue. It has all been explained.

If you don't accept the explanation, then we just have to agree to disagree.

But many theologians have thought about these things for centuries. It is always best to get an explanation from someone who knows the faith instead of someone who doesn't even think it's true.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: William on October 16, 2013, 01:45:55 PM
Jesus ate and drank with the people rejoicing in sin. When asked why jesus said "Those who are well have no need of a physician."

I've never met a member of the clergy who isn't drawn to free food and grog  ;)
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 01:48:12 PM
Ummm, made better people...

With free will? Because people will just choose to sin again. You can't just force them to only do good either. That would be meaningless. No spiritual growth could occur.

Nobody wants to go out with a man/woman if they were forced to go out with you. You want somebody who freely chose you.

Why is it that god-given free will is so readily available in minor instances, like dating, but not available when one is being raped and murdered, blown up by a drone, run over by a drunk driver, squished in an earthquake or being stoned to death by fellow muslims? Why is god-given free will both of ultimate import and so easily trampled on/taken away?

Did you know that leaded gasoline caused behavioral problems in people for over half a century, and its effects and hence crime rates, are now decreasing because the use of leaded fuels has stopped and the lead levels in human bodies are slowly decreasing? What sort of free will does a mind/body unwittingly poisoned by lead have?

If god wants little Charlie to freely choose him, but at age 3, way too soon for little Charlie to be making life decisions, his drunken father smashes him over the head with a baseball bat and kills him, what free will did the little boy have? How relevant was it? Why did the father's free have so much bearing on his child's sudden lack of it? Are such imbalances typical of your god, or merely a byproduct of inadequate and oversimplified human rationalizations about variations in behavior?

If your god both puts high value/priority on his god-given free will be does nothing to protect it in an individual (i.e., protect people from external forces that violate individual god-given free will to the extent that it is no longer viable), then it is an irrelevant issue. If god-given free will is both of ultimate importance and easily disposable, then it cannot be considered a useful method of determining individual worthiness. If a twenty pound little girl being simultaneously raped and smothered by a 350 pound rapist has no choice in the matter, then your placing a high value on free will is merely an excuse, an oversimplified explanation as to why people aren't as perfect as we all wish they were. And an excuse for you to accuse others of being less perfect than you, rather than an incentive for you to help to find solutions to totally human problems.

The religious appear to have to keep things simple. One cannot espouse the existence of a god and relate his or her deity to reality without pretending not only that there is a god, but also that said god is viable, relevant, pertinent and helpful.

Made up stuff barely works in movies and books. It never works in real life. Not if one wants real answers and real solutions. Look at what the fantasies of the tea party are doing to American politics. The religious do the same thing every day with their useless notions. Such as free will and its relation to their god. Get over it. We have societies to fix. That can't happen when 70% of the people live down a rabbit hole.

Excellent questions! I used to ask these same questions! Remarkable!

Anyway, you are still looking at it from a materialistic point of view. This was a big hurdle for me too. Remember that death is not the end. That is just your belief. I know it's hard for atheists to get the materialistic view out of their heads, but our side is not predicated on the materialistic side. This is why I came to learn that many of the atheistic questions are just based on materialism.

To really understand this requires much understanding of God.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 01:51:35 PM
Jesus ate and drank with the people rejoicing in sin. When asked why jesus said "Those who are well have no need of a physician."

I've never met a member of the clergy who isn't drawn to free food and grog  ;)

Of course. Many clergymen are some of the world's biggest sinners.
they are being given things by demons. A lot of churches have satanic symbols outside of them while claiming to follow Jesus. Jesus warned us about these people.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: William on October 16, 2013, 01:55:46 PM
Of course. Many clergymen are some of the world's biggest sinners.
they are being given things by demons. A lot of churches have satanic symbols outside of them while claiming to follow Jesus. Jesus warned us about these people.

While His hippy group of men and women followers roamed the countryside with Him, dispensing snake oil hands-on and hope, enjoying free food and grog.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 02:01:53 PM
Of course. Many clergymen are some of the world's biggest sinners.
they are being given things by demons. A lot of churches have satanic symbols outside of them while claiming to follow Jesus. Jesus warned us about these people.

While His hippy group of men and women followers roamed the countryside with Him, dispensing snake oil hands-on and hope, enjoying free food and grog.

This is not snake-oil though. Things are coming true before our eyes today. Jesus predicted many things. The Gospel will reach the ends of the Earth. This hasn't been true until we got mass communication.

Jesus said many people will claim to be him. This hasn't happened until the last 200 years or so.

The jews are rebuilding the temple to start animal sacrifices again. This was prophecized by Jesus saying this will happen in the last days.

He's either God or one heck of a good guesser for an illiterate nomadic 1st century Jew with no education.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 02:03:15 PM
No, that is not true at all.

Jesus ate and drank with the people rejoicing in sin. When asked why jesus said "Those who are well have no need of a physician."

Same with the story of the missing sheep. If a man has 100 sheep and one goes missing, does he not leave the other 99 sheep to go find the lost sheep?

If you view this as preaching, I apologize but I believe I had to cite the Bible here because Jesus answered your question.

Wrong.

Quote
Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, 'I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Therefore, come out from their midst and be separate,' says the Lord. 'And do not touch what is unclean; And I will welcome you. And I will be a Father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to Me,' Says the Lord Almighty." (2 Corinthians 6:14-18).

We are the "darkness", and we are "unclean". You are not to associate with us; what you are doing right now.

You're further from being like Jesus than we are.

Try again.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 16, 2013, 02:06:42 PM
No there isn't.  At least, not in the Bible.  Either way, what if someone grows up to age 40 without hearing the "gospel"?  They're clearly past any age of accountability you might have invented as an excuse.  So, what punishment would you hand out to such a person?  Own up to your own religious bloodlust already.

I have no idea what the punishment is for those people. What I do know is that God put his moral compass engraved on our hearts. So if a person never heard of Jesus, then the person could still be following Jesus based on his heart.

I know it can get confusing whether you're talking about yourself or about your god, when you're the one who created your own god, but I wasn't asking what your god's punishment would be.  I was asking what punishment YOU would hand out, just like you had asked Astreja what punishment SHE would hand out.  Not eager to take responsibility for your own views, there...?

I am sorry if you feel that way but I can not control who accepts or denies the faith. I can only explain my viewpoint.

You can discredit the faith by acting poorly on its behalf.  That will make it less convincing.  Is that your goal?  If not, then what are you going to do about it?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Quesi on October 16, 2013, 02:10:56 PM
What is this age of accountability? 

4?  7?  12?  15?  18?

Does the six year old child who is sold for sex get a pass?  What about the 12 year old prostitute?  What about the 22 year old who was sold into the sex trade at age 6, and never got free?

Does the 8 year old who tortures animals get in, while the 18 year old who fed and bathed and raised her siblings, but never excepted your god gets condemned forever? 

Is there a specific cut off date?  And let me ask you.  If this were really true, and if Christians really believed this, wouldn't you CELEBRATE the death of a young child, who was exempted from the possibility of sin? 

Oh.  And please cite relevant scriptures in your answer.   
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Astreja on October 16, 2013, 02:11:50 PM
If you were God, what would your punishments be for wicked people?

Well, it just so happens that I did an internship in ancient Greece and served as the Goddess of Justice for a while.  (I also have a Nephew in the judicial system in Asgard.)  Let's just say I've given this some serious thought over the years.

First of all, punishment is only useful as a deterrent.  As dead people can't commit crimes, if there was a reasonable risk of someone committing a similar crime in the afterlife I simply wouldn't revive him.

Secondly, justice is not advanced one iota by the administration of torture.  It's petty, it's vindictive, it's childish and it accomplishes nothing of value.  A god possessed of integrity and empathy should be above nonsense like "That'll teach ya!  Scream, you sucker, screeeam!"

(Needless to say, an invisible god that would send someone to hell for not believing in it -- or for not believing the wild stories about its purported son -- is simply flippin' insane.)
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 16, 2013, 02:13:19 PM
There are apologetic websites that deal with this issue. It has all been explained.

If you don't accept the explanation, then we just have to agree to disagree.

There are also apologetic websites explaining why the Earth is flat.  Really and truly, there are.

Apologetics only need to exist for fictional accounts.  Reality needs no apologetics.  The existence of and need for apologetics is a devastating strike against any false religion, including yours.

But many theologians have thought about these things for centuries. It is always best to get an explanation from someone who knows the faith instead of someone who doesn't even think it's true.

The two are not mutually exclusive.  Knowing the faith often leads people to conclude that it isn't true.  That's been the case with many on this site.  This is why knowledge is an enemy of your faith, and education must be fought as an instrument of Satan.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 02:23:23 PM
What is this age of accountability? 

4?  7?  12?  15?  18?

Does the six year old child who is sold for sex get a pass?  What about the 12 year old prostitute?  What about the 22 year old who was sold into the sex trade at age 6, and never got free?

Does the 8 year old who tortures animals get in, while the 18 year old who fed and bathed and raised her siblings, but never excepted your god gets condemned forever? 

Is there a specific cut off date?  And let me ask you.  If this were really true, and if Christians really believed this, wouldn't you CELEBRATE the death of a young child, who was exempted from the possibility of sin? 

Oh.  And please cite relevant scriptures in your answer.

It is the age where people can understand what Jesus did for us and respond to his message through works. Some people might understand this at age 5, others might not understand it until age 20.

A mentally disabled person might never be able to understand it so they will go to Heaven whenever they die, even if they live to 85.

And celebrating would the be wrong word to describe the death of a child. Think of it as rejoining.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 02:27:41 PM
If you were God, what would your punishments be for wicked people?

Well, it just so happens that I did an internship in ancient Greece and served as the Goddess of Justice for a while.  (I also have a Nephew in the judicial system in Asgard.)  Let's just say I've given this some serious thought over the years.

First of all, punishment is only useful as a deterrent.  As dead people can't commit crimes, if there was a reasonable risk of someone committing a similar crime in the afterlife I simply wouldn't revive him.

Secondly, justice is not advanced one iota by the administration of torture.  It's petty, it's vindictive, it's childish and it accomplishes nothing of value.  A god possessed of integrity and empathy should be above nonsense like "That'll teach ya!  Scream, you sucker, screeeam!"

(Needless to say, an invisible god that would send someone to hell for not believing in it -- or for not believing the wild stories about its purported son -- is simply flippin' insane.)

Thank you for the response. I do not think you will find any verses in the Scriptures where God tortures people.

First of all, what is your definition of torture?
Second of all, people need to go through bad things in order to grow spiritually. Eliminating all bad things conversely eliminates all the good things because the two words go together. The result would be a state of spiritual stagnation.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 16, 2013, 02:28:59 PM
Well that makes it easy.  Those of us who don't believe that Jesus existed as written, also don't understand him to have done anything for us, by the same token.  So we're exempt, according to what you said.  Again, I don't expect you to agree with yourself once you realize what you said, but hey, a reprieve from your bloodlust is welcome either way.

And celebrating would the be wrong word to describe the death of a child. Think of it as rejoining.

So...you rejoin when you hear that a child dies?  How the hell does that make any sense, even as a sentence?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 02:30:37 PM
We are the "darkness", and we are "unclean". You are not to associate with us; what you are doing right now.

You're further from being like Jesus than we are.

Try again.

-Nam

We were told to preach the Gospel. It is possible for people to change their minds about something.

All I can do is put my faith out there and hope someone grabs it.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 16, 2013, 02:33:17 PM
The Westboro Baptists put their faith out there, too.  Does that draw people in, or push them away?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 16, 2013, 02:34:11 PM

This thing is it's very easy to go to Heaven: Accept Jesus as your savior and try and live like Him. The verse was talking about people who are following demonic doctrines instead of Jesus.

Plenty of people think they are worshiping God, but they are following a false religion. Since I am not following a false religion, I am not one of those people that the verse is speaking about.

This is just the way it is. I have lead many people away from their false churches. I can only be the messenger.

The bible itself says that your belief is a religion (James ch 1). So you are incorrect in this idea that you are not following a religion. According to your own bible, you in fact are and your response did not deal with my objection. It only demonstrates your own personal theology. Yet the bible's words are contrary to your theology, since you can't know if you are saved (given that God could change his mind at any time - as you have already admitted).

Secondly, I have lead many people of away from their false churches too :) You know, they can't all be wrong but they can all be wrong.

We were told to preach the Gospel. It is possible for people to change their minds about something.All I can do is put my faith out there and hope someone grabs it.

Why would anybody want faith? Faith is unreliable for separating fact from fiction (most especially when it comes to claims of the supernatural and miraculous).
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 02:35:08 PM
We are the "darkness", and we are "unclean". You are not to associate with us; what you are doing right now.

You're further from being like Jesus than we are.

Try again.

-Nam

We were told to preach the Gospel. It is possible for people to change their minds about something.

All I can do is put my faith out there and hope someone grabs it.

Now you're making excuses. Do us a favor: read the Bible and do not assume none of us haven't.

How do you think many of us became what we are today? By reading the Bible.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 02:37:00 PM
I know it can get confusing whether you're talking about yourself or about your god, when you're the one who created your own god, but I wasn't asking what your god's punishment would be.  I was asking what punishment YOU would hand out, just like you had asked Astreja what punishment SHE would hand out.  Not eager to take responsibility for your own views, there...?

The punishment I would hand out? The same thing as God.

If a parent's son/daughter is doing cocaine every day and the parent tells them to stop and they keep doing it in their house day after day, eventually the parent will get fed up and remove the child from their presence. They still love the child very very much but they can not allow behavior like that to go unpunished. If their child gets killed on the street in a drug dispute, the parents will be upset but it was the child's fault for not listening to his/her parents.

Would you blame yourself?

You can discredit the faith by acting poorly on its behalf.  That will make it less convincing.  Is that your goal?  If not, then what are you going to do about it?

But lots of atheists teat Christians with disdain and contempt.

We have to agree that there are poor representatives on both sides. But a poor representative does not make the belief true or false.

Saying, "you're a poor representative, therefore Christianity is false" is nonsensical.

I am sorry if you feel I am poor though.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 02:41:20 PM
The Westboro Baptists put their faith out there, too.  Does that draw people in, or push them away?

Westboro has a wrong view of the Bible. They claim all the OT laws still apply when Jesus overturned them with his sacrifice.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: William on October 16, 2013, 02:42:59 PM
Jesus predicted many things. The Gospel will reach the ends of the Earth. This hasn't been true until we got mass communication.
The Earth doesn't have "ends".

Jesus said many people will claim to be him. This hasn't happened until the last 200 years or so.
Copycats are predictable. People claim to be Elvis, or Satan.  Only nongs believe them.  It would've been impressive if Jesus had said: "A pop band named after a type of insect will claim to be more popular than I am."  That would've got my attention.   

The jews are rebuilding the temple to start animal sacrifices again. This was prophecized by Jesus saying this will happen in the last days.
Funny that the prophecies by Jesus of the destruction of the temple where only put on paper AFTER the destruction of the temple  &) The rest is Jews doing what Jews do - hardly remarkable.

He's either God or one heck of a good guesser for an illiterate nomadic 1st century Jew with no education.
But He got a KEY prophecy completely wrong - that He would return before some of his audience would die:

Quote
Matthew 16: 28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

For a "skeptic" you've brought a bag of fail to the table.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 02:45:29 PM
Now you're making excuses. Do us a favor: read the Bible and do not assume none of us haven't.

How do you think many of us became what we are today? By reading the Bible.

-Nam

I do not assume that many of you did not read the Bible. I am just saying that you most likely misunderstand it because you apply materialistic thinking to it. That's what got me in a pickle when I was an atheist.

Christians are the best ones to ask about the Bible. We understand it because it is our faith. We don't look at a verse and say, "How stupid!!!!" and laugh about it. We study it, look at the context, and pray to God for understanding.

Do you know how many hours one single verse can be studied for?
To dismiss it with one glance with a 21 century viewpoint and not look at the proper historical and spiritual context is naive and childish in my opinion.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Benny on October 16, 2013, 02:45:48 PM
I do not think you will find any verses in the Scriptures where God tortures people.

If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.  -Psalm 89:31-2

And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.  -Matthew 22:12-13

If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. Matthew 18:8-9

The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.  -Matthew 24:50-51

More: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/torture.html

First of all, what is your definition of torture?

I don't know Astreja's definition of torture, but I bet it looks a lot like that.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 16, 2013, 02:46:03 PM
The punishment I would hand out? The same thing as God.

So if the atheist members of this forum died, as atheists, and God laid the decision entirely on you as to what to do to us...you would decide to have us tortured for eternity.

That is hatred, sir.  Pure hatred of the most extreme level imaginable.  And it's all yours.  Why would anyone want to partake of that hatred by joining you?

If a parent's son/daughter is doing cocaine every day and the parent tells them to stop and they keep doing it in their house day after day, eventually the parent will get fed up and remove the child from their presence. They still love the child very very much but they can not allow behavior like that to go unpunished. If their child gets killed on the street in a drug dispute, the parents will be upset but it was the child's fault for not listening to his/her parents.

Would you blame yourself?

I would if I introduced the kid to cocaine in the first place.  Either way, I wouldn't deliberately send the kid to be tortured for all eternity.  There would never be any justification for doing so.

But lots of atheists teat Christians with disdain and contempt.

We have to agree that there are poor representatives on both sides. But a poor representative does not make the belief true or false.

Saying, "you're a poor representative, therefore Christianity is false" is nonsensical.

I am sorry if you feel I am poor though.

When all you have to offer is your own testimony and personality, a lot ends up riding on the quality of that testimony and personality.  This goes for anyone, be they theist, atheist, Christian, Muslim, Mormon, whatever.  If an atheist goes on a Christian site[1] and acts like an ass, then that too will drive people away from atheism.  Or at the very least, it would help to drive them away from atheists.

Look up the posts of a recent member, "crowbar", for a more extreme example of what I'm talking about re: Christians discrediting their own faith.  You're not nearly as bad as him in terms of your personality, but you aren't offering anything better than what he did in terms of reasons to believe.  It's still basically "turn or burn" to people who don't already believe they're going to burn.
 1. and somehow isn't immediately banned for being an atheist...it's usually against their forum rules to be openly atheist, or even to openly disagree
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Dante on October 16, 2013, 02:46:08 PM
Eliminating all bad things conversely eliminates all the good things because the two words go together. The result would be a state of spiritual stagnation.

So, there's bad things in heaven? Or is it just spiritual stagnation?

Your entire theology is contradictory. And it amazes me that you can be intelligent enough to turn on a computer and type, but not be able to see your beliefs for the myths that they are.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: screwtape on October 16, 2013, 02:47:05 PM
The punishment I would hand out? The same thing as God.

naturally.  I bet you and god agree on everything, right?

If a parent's son/daughter is doing cocaine every day...

Terrible analogy.  Parents are not omnimax.  Parents do not create cocoaine.  Parents do not have to option of making it so cocaine did not exist.  Parents do not create the drug dispute.  There are probably many more reasons why that is a terrible analogy.

Rather than get hung up on arguing just how terrible an analogy it is, try a different analogy.  Preferably one that bears some similarity to the situation you are trying to parallel. Or, better yet, see if you can explain without using an analogy at all.  Analogies are supposed to make things more clear, but mostly just make the argument about whether the analogy is applicable.

Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 16, 2013, 02:47:33 PM
The Westboro Baptists put their faith out there, too.  Does that draw people in, or push them away?

Westboro has a wrong view of the Bible. They claim all the OT laws still apply when Jesus overturned them with his sacrifice.

Your response has nothing to do with what I said.  It was a short post.  How did you manage not to read it when you replied to it?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: jaimehlers on October 16, 2013, 02:48:04 PM
You are 100% correct that God owes us nothing. But out of his kindness and mercy, He is doing something for us.

Nobody forced God to do this. He chose to do it for us. Imagine a serial killer was about to be shot on the street by a pedestrian and you jumped in front of the serial killer and took the bullet for him and he got away. That would be extreme kindness and mercy on your part. But most people would rightfully think, "Why do I wanna save that wicked man? Let him die."
Do you realize just how bad of an example this is?  It's wrong on several levels.

First off, you're comparing humanity as a whole to a serial killer.  I guess you might really think that humanity is like that, but frankly that's rubbish.  Most people are not sadistic murderers; they just want to live their lives.

Second, if you jump in the way of a bullet meant for a serial killer, it isn't an act of extreme kindness and mercy, it's an act of blatant stupidity and/or ignorance.  Why?  Because by your sacrifice, you're enabling the serial killer to go on murdering other people.  Anyone else who dies by his hands is at least partially your responsibility.

Third, you're basically claiming (by analogy) that Jesus would have jumped in the path of a bullet meant for a serial killer.  It doesn't give other people much confidence in his judgment in other things.

Fourth, by saying that most people would rightfully let the serial killer die, you just showed that you don't really agree with saving him from death; that you don't agree with your own deity's judgment.

With a single badly-chosen analogy, you just gave your own argument a devastating blow.  Though, frankly, you've not exactly been an impressive defender of Christianity through this thread.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: screwtape on October 16, 2013, 02:49:04 PM
How did you manage not to read it when you replied to it?

he seems to practice quite a lot.  That's probably why he's so good at it.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 02:50:20 PM
The Earth doesn't have "ends".

Metaphorical ends, yes.

Copycats are predictable. People claim to be Elvis, or Satan.  Only nongs believe them.  It would've been impressive if Jesus had said: "A pop band named after a type of insect will claim to be more popular than I am."  That would've got my attention.   

That would not have gotten your attention. You would have claimed it was a self-fulfilling prophecy, and rightly so with a silly prophecy like that.

The jews are rebuilding the temple to start animal sacrifices again. This was prophecized by Jesus saying this will happen in the last days.
Funny that the prophecies by Jesus of the destruction of the temple where only put on paper AFTER the destruction of the temple  &) The rest is Jews doing what Jews do - hardly remarkable.[/quote]

How so? The passage is written in the present tense with Jesus speaking of the future. If the temple was already destroyed, that would make no sense to write it in present tense.
or an illiterate nomadic 1st century Jew with no education.

But He got a KEY prophecy completely wrong - that He would return before some of his audience would die:

Matthew 16: 28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Jesus was speaking of our generation. The generation started when Israel came back in 1948. Again, analyze the context of the whole chapter.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Quesi on October 16, 2013, 02:50:40 PM

Thank you for the response. I do not think you will find any verses in the Scriptures where God tortures people.

First of all, what is your definition of torture?
Second of all, people need to go through bad things in order to grow spiritually. Eliminating all bad things conversely eliminates all the good things because the two words go together. The result would be a state of spiritual stagnation.


What is your definition of torture.  Elimination of all life on the planet by drowning?  (Except for Noah and his family and a pair of each animal?)  How about pain in childbirth.  Have you ever witnessed childbirth? 

And then there is this guy:

http://youtu.be/p9k6zekt44M
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 02:51:56 PM
The Westboro Baptists put their faith out there, too.  Does that draw people in, or push them away?

Westboro has a wrong view of the Bible. They claim all the OT laws still apply when Jesus overturned them with his sacrifice.

Where in the NT does it say Jesus overturned the old laws? In Matthew it says he didn't come to abolish the old laws but to fulfill them. But let's put that aside, remember what you say, if in the future you quote the 10 Commandments (old law) I'll remind you what you say here.

"...the scripture cannot be broken" -- Jesus in John.

I guess he lied.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 16, 2013, 02:53:24 PM
I do not think you will find any verses in the Scriptures where God tortures people.

Luke 13:27-28
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Matthew 13:42
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So, according to your own bible Jesus (who is supposedly God) throws people (humans or angels etc) into eternal fire forever. Either way you slice it, this is clearly torture. Would you do this to your son if you had one (under any conditions)? I know you likely want to attempt to redefine terms in order to avoid the problem but that is just intellectual dishonesty. According to your own bible God tortures people...forever. That is the God you claim to worship and it is disgusting, sorry.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: screwtape on October 16, 2013, 02:55:43 PM
This thing is it's very easy to go to Heaven: Accept Jesus as your savior and try and live like Him.

No, no.  This assumes there is a deal with god. It assumes god is going to follow the rules.  You just said god owes us nothing.  That means god is under no obligation to adhere to any rules. So while you may think accepting jesus H is the ticket to heaven, that is just wishful thinking.  God owes you nothing.

Plenty of people think they are worshiping God, but they are following a false religion.

How are they to tell the difference? How is anyone?  Won't god have any mercy on them?  Or do they go to hell too?

Since I am not following a false religion,

How do you know?  Maybe you are one of those people who are following a false religion but don't know it.

I have lead many people away from their false churches. I can only be the messenger.

It is possible you only think that but in reality you lead them to your false church.  Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Benny on October 16, 2013, 02:57:57 PM
-snip bible verses-

Hey Median, you stole my idea!  (Just kidding, it's fine. but i'm crying on the inside)
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 02:59:08 PM
Now you're making excuses. Do us a favor: read the Bible and do not assume none of us haven't.

How do you think many of us became what we are today? By reading the Bible.

-Nam

I do not assume that many of you did not read the Bible. I am just saying that you most likely misunderstand it because you apply materialistic thinking to it. That's what got me in a pickle when I was an atheist.

Christians are the best ones to ask about the Bible. We understand it because it is our faith. We don't look at a verse and say, "How stupid!!!!" and laugh about it. We study it, look at the context, and pray to God for understanding.

Do you know how many hours one single verse can be studied for?
To dismiss it with one glance with a 21 century viewpoint and not look at the proper historical and spiritual context is naive and childish in my opinion.

You were never an atheist, stop lying to us.

Christians are the worse people to ask about the Bible. Why? Because like you:

1. Most have never read the entire Bible (or any of it)
2. They don't have answers,they have excuses (you've given so many here already)
3. They have their own interpretations of it (why there are over 38,000 sects, and countless versions)
4. They have no idea how to debate with their selves or opposition

etc., etc.,

To your last part: there you go again: assuming we haven't read the Bible.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 16, 2013, 03:06:52 PM

I do not assume that many of you did not read the Bible. I am just saying that you most likely misunderstand it because you apply materialistic thinking to it. That's what got me in a pickle when I was an atheist.

Christians are the best ones to ask about the Bible. We understand it because it is our faith. We don't look at a verse and say, "How stupid!!!!" and laugh about it. We study it, look at the context, and pray to God for understanding.

Do you know how many hours one single verse can be studied for?
To dismiss it with one glance with a 21 century viewpoint and not look at the proper historical and spiritual context is naive and childish in my opinion.

Except this statement doesn't apply to people like myself, who were Christian ministers, pastors, evangelists, and apologists for many years (for me nearly 20). I know very well what the bible says and I attempted your same irrational arguments, spin, and rationalizations trying to protect the assumed belief. Muslims btw use this same kind of flawed thinking to protect their religious assumptions, as do Mormons and countless others. The fact is, you have a hidden premise in this argument (i.e. - that no one can interpret the bible expect "Christians") which is completely false. Would you accept this argument from any another religion?

I've studied the bible, looked at 'context', and prayed for nearly two decades. It is irrational, self contradictory, and in error on many accounts (which any intellectually honest person can see). We do not need to study for hours, days, weeks, and months in order to determine that an argument is fallacious. Furthermore, I have no applied "materialistic thinking". That is your personal projection for anyone who finds fault in those pages, and it is a false one. It is called the fallacy of a Hasty Generalization.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: William on October 16, 2013, 03:08:01 PM
Metaphorical ends, yes.
There is no mark in the margin to indicate it's metaphorical. You have decided it must be metaphorical because it's wrong.

That would not have gotten your attention. You would have claimed it was a self-fulfilling prophecy, and rightly so with a silly prophecy like that.
The purpose of ALL prophecy is to get attention. If God wanted to be really convincing He would've put it in a sealed envelope or hidden scrolls in buried pots or something clever.  Other explanations point to man-made fiction.

How so? The passage is written in the present tense with Jesus speaking of the future. If the temple was already destroyed, that would make no sense to write it in present tense.
or an illiterate nomadic 1st century Jew with no education.
Large tracts of Harry Potter are written in the present tense.
Have you made no effort to find out when the gospels were actually written?

Jesus was speaking of our generation. The generation started when Israel came back in 1948. Again, analyze the context of the whole chapter.
That must've really befuddled the people Jesus was actually addressing at the time :o :police:
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 03:10:57 PM
Though, I was never a "scholar", I have read 14 versions (and have been recently skimming The Voice), and though I haven't memorized it (mainly because I think I'd go insane), and have read The Book of Mormon and the Qur'an, (which are offshoots) I think I am knowledgeable enough, at least more so than most Christians, including skeptic.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 03:15:45 PM
OK guys...you may have read the Bible and can rattle off what it SAYS, but do you know what it MEANS?

Let's try two examples to test this:

When Jesus said, "I am the light of the world," does this mean Jesus is literally a talking beam of light?

The answer is no. It is a metaphorical light.

When jesus said, "I am the bread of life," does this mean Jesus was literally a talking piece of bread?

the answer is no. it is metaphorical bread for our soul.

Does this help?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Dante on October 16, 2013, 03:20:18 PM
OK guys...you may have read the Bible and can rattle off what it SAYS, but do you know what it MEANS?

Let's try two examples to test this:

When Jesus said, "I am the light of the world," does this mean Jesus is literally a talking beam of light?

The answer is no. It is a metaphorical light.

When jesus said, "I am the bread of life," does this mean Jesus was literally a talking piece of bread?

the answer is no. it is metaphorical bread for our soul.

Does this help?

And when he said faith can move mountains? Metaphor? How about when he fed masses? Metaphor? Was walking on water a metaphor too? Born of a virgin?
 How about being resurrected?

See, that's the problem. All yinz xians claim to know what's literal and what's metaphorical, but you rarely agree. And that, mi amigo, leaves us skeptics feeling confused, and unable to lend credence to your claims.

Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Benny on October 16, 2013, 03:21:33 PM
And in addition to what Dante said:

When Jesus said, "I am the light of the world," does this mean Jesus is literally a talking beam of light?

The answer is no. It is a metaphorical light.

Our problem is not with things like that.  Our problem is when you pull a verse like "The Gospel will reach the ends of the Earth,"which could have EASILY been meant literally back when people thought the Earth was flat, and saying it's metaphorical just because it makes it easier for you.  Two totally different things.

Does this help?

Eh, not really, no.

(edit for formatting, because mild OCD)
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 16, 2013, 03:22:48 PM
OK guys...you may have read the Bible and can rattle off what it SAYS, but do you know what it MEANS?

Let's try two examples to test this:

When Jesus said, "I am the light of the world," does this mean Jesus is literally a talking beam of light?

The answer is no. It is a metaphorical light.

When jesus said, "I am the bread of life," does this mean Jesus was literally a talking piece of bread?

the answer is no. it is metaphorical bread for our soul.

Does this help?

It does not help your case, no. See, every Christian sect/denomination has different interpretations of what the text means and tons of them contradict each other. This is why there is no one Christianity. There are only Christianities (pl.). As is so often the case, religious people (yourself included) practice Confirmation Bias when it comes to interpreting the religious text you just so happen to believe in. Mormons do it. Muslims do it. Hindus do it. They all do it. It's wrong for them and it's wrong for you. Trying to say, "Oh but it's doesn't mean that!" in order to save your faith is dishonest b/c it means you are coming to the text with a presupposition, instead of allowing your beliefs to be tentative, and governed by sound critical thinking. This is the problem with starting from your conclusion ("the bible is the Word") and trying to work backwards.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 03:24:09 PM
OK guys...you may have read the Bible and can rattle off what it SAYS, but do you know what it MEANS?

Do you?

Apparently not because everytime we quote or mention a passage you don't say we're wrong in what it says you make an excuse for it.

Quote
Let's try two examples to test this:

When Jesus said, "I am the light of the world," does this mean Jesus is literally a talking beam of light?

You're an idiot.

Quote
The answer is no. It is a metaphorical light.

Why are you an idiot? Because you're poking the wrong people. You can't handle us. Right now you're suggesting that we can't read. Only you, and those like you can read. Basically, you're saying we are illiterate and you're going to teach us how to be literate.

You're poking the wrong people. Some of us can be downright cruel if we wish to be. I'd cease with the insults. A fair warning.

Quote
the answer is no. it is metaphorical bread for our soul.

Does this help?

Idiot.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: William on October 16, 2013, 03:24:18 PM
How does Jesus "metaphorically" not change one jot or tittle of the OT law till the end of the universe?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 03:24:23 PM
OK guys...you may have read the Bible and can rattle off what it SAYS, but do you know what it MEANS?

Let's try two examples to test this:

When Jesus said, "I am the light of the world," does this mean Jesus is literally a talking beam of light?

The answer is no. It is a metaphorical light.

When jesus said, "I am the bread of life," does this mean Jesus was literally a talking piece of bread?

the answer is no. it is metaphorical bread for our soul.

Does this help?

And when he said faith can move mountains? Metaphor? How about when he fed masses? Metaphor? Was walking on water a metaphor too? Born of a virgin?
 How about being resurrected?

See, that's the problem. All yinz xians claim to know what's literal and what's metaphorical, but you rarely agree. And that, mi amigo, leaves us skeptics feeling confused, and unable to lend credence to your claims.

Faith moving mountains is metaphorical.
The details about his life are simply facts: born of a virgin, feeding the masses etc.

is this really very hard to understand?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Benny on October 16, 2013, 03:26:43 PM
Faith moving mountains is metaphorical.
The details about his life are simply facts: born of a virgin, feeding the masses etc.

is this really very hard to understand?

Magically moving a mountain is a metaphor, but magical pregnancy without sex and magical loaves of bread out of thin air AREN'T metaphorical?

Yeah, it IS really hard to understand, because it's bullshit.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 03:28:50 PM
OK guys...you may have read the Bible and can rattle off what it SAYS, but do you know what it MEANS?

Let's try two examples to test this:

When Jesus said, "I am the light of the world," does this mean Jesus is literally a talking beam of light?

The answer is no. It is a metaphorical light.

When jesus said, "I am the bread of life," does this mean Jesus was literally a talking piece of bread?

the answer is no. it is metaphorical bread for our soul.

Does this help?

It does not help your case, no. See, every Christian sect/denomination has different interpretations of what the text means and tons of them contradict each other. This is why there is no one Christianity. There are only Christianities (pl.). As is so often the case, religious people (yourself included) practice Confirmation Bias when it comes to interpreting the religious text you just so happen to believe in. Mormons do it. Muslims do it. Hindus do it. They all do it. It's wrong for them and it's wrong for you. Trying to say, "Oh but it's doesn't mean that!" in order to save your faith is dishonest b/c it means you are coming to the text with a presupposition, instead of allowing your beliefs to be tentative, and governed by sound critical thinking. This is the problem with starting from your conclusion ("the bible is the Word") and trying to work backwards.

You're not understanding this though. I already explained that demons create false religions to deceive people and jesus warned us about it.

There is only one Christianity, which is following Jesus. The other sects that build churches are demonic in nature. Most of these churches have collection plates and DEMAND your money in order to be saved. Salvation is not something that needs to be paid for. Corrupt leaders want this money to live their materialistic life. It is the doctrine of demons. They need you to believe salvation costs money and needs to be earned because THEY need the money. God doesn't need money.

All you have to do is accept Jesus' sacrifice and live through Him.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 16, 2013, 03:29:30 PM

Faith moving mountains is metaphorical.
The details about his life are simply facts: born of a virgin, feeding the masses etc.

is this really very hard to understand?

Actually it is you here who is changing the context and meaning of the text to save it from refutation. In Mark 16 and John 14 Jesus clearly (but supposedly) says that anyone who believes in him will do the works he allegedly did, and greater! So you should be raising the dead, healing the sick, curing the blind, moving mountains, and...

HEALING AMPUTEES!

p.s. - Was the resurrection metaphorical too?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Dante on October 16, 2013, 03:29:55 PM
is this really very hard to understand?

Nope, it's not.

But, again, there are so many of yinz that don't agree on the literal and the metaphorical, it's sometimes hard to keep track of what level of crazy we're dealing with.

Is that difficult to understand?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Benny on October 16, 2013, 03:31:31 PM
Some of us can be downright cruel if we wish to be. I'd cease with the insults. A fair warning.

I second the warning.  Usually I promote tolerance and respect.  I've even given Nam a thumbs-down Darwin because of his cruelty.  But there's a line in the sand, Skep.  And you're coming dangerously close to it by implying that we don't understand the Bible's "true meaning."  Be very, very careful with your next posts.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: William on October 16, 2013, 03:32:35 PM
...Metaphor? ... How about being resurrected?

Ooh yes now that's an interesting thought! - it almost works :o
How come Christians haven't thought of that explanation yet? :angel:
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: jdawg70 on October 16, 2013, 03:33:02 PM
Faith moving mountains is metaphorical.
The details about his life are simply facts: born of a virgin, feeding the masses etc.

is this really very hard to understand?
It may help everyone if you explain your process for determining that 'faith moving mountains' is metaphorical rather than literal.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Benny on October 16, 2013, 03:34:25 PM
You're not understanding this though. I already explained that demons create false religions to deceive people and jesus warned us about it.

But how do you know that Christianity isn't a false religion, and demons created it to deceive people so they wouldn't follow Ba'al, the One True GodTM?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 03:35:20 PM
You're not understanding this though. I already explained that demons create false religions to deceive people and jesus warned us about it.

But how do you know that Christianity isn't a false religion, and demons created it to deceive people so they wouldn't follow Ba'al, the One True GodTM?

Because the Bible tells him so.

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 16, 2013, 03:36:20 PM
You're not understanding this though. I already explained that demons create false religions to deceive people and jesus warned us about it.

There is only one Christianity, which is following Jesus. The other sects that build churches are demonic in nature. Most of these churches have collection plates and DEMAND your money in order to be saved. Salvation is not something that needs to be paid for. Corrupt leaders want this money to live their materialistic life. It is the doctrine of demons. They need you to believe salvation costs money and needs to be earned because THEY need the money. God doesn't need money.

All you have to do is accept Jesus' sacrifice and live through Him.

This last statement sounds like you believe in both grace AND works based salvation. You do know that is a logical contradiction, don't you? You can't be "saved by grace" but then say you must also "live through him" doing good works etc too. In any event though, you have just stated YOUR PERSONAL THEOLOGY. As I noted before, there are lots of theologies Christians justify by using the bible. So what.

Now, do you not understand the claims of other religions? Your first claim here is the same claim that many other religions make, and it is unsupported. Just saying, "Our church is the true one! Trust us! Watch out for everyone else! They are false!" doesn't prove anything. Car salesmen do this all the time regarding their competitors. Big deal. It doesn't prove you are correct.

As I said before, they can't all be right but you can all be wrong.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Quesi on October 16, 2013, 03:39:41 PM
You know, it is pretty confusing.  You've got abominations and commandments and metaphors and all mixed up and translated from Aramaic to Greek to Latin and two thousand years later, we are supposed to understand the meanings according to a translation into a language that did not even exist when Jesus lived?

Now, when I have something really important to communicate to my staff, I put in bullets.  I use clear, parallel language, so that everyone knows what I mean. 

When I need to communicate to my child, I use simple, clear words. 

Why is it when god has something important to say, he mixes up metaphors with absolute rules and prophesies and whatnot? 

It is almost as if god doesn't want us to understand it!
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Benny on October 16, 2013, 03:40:51 PM
But how do you know that Christianity isn't a false religion, and demons created it to deceive people so they wouldn't follow Ba'al, the One True GodTM?

Because the Bible tells him so.

;)

-Nam

Jebus loves me, this I know
For a website told me so.
Little brains to me belong,
I am weak, but Kent Hovind is strong!  :angel:
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Benny on October 16, 2013, 03:46:00 PM
You know, it is pretty confusing.  You've got abominations and commandments and metaphors and all mixed up and translated from Aramaic to Greek to Latin and two thousand years later, we are supposed to understand the meanings according to a translation into a language that did not even exist when Jesus lived?

Now, when I have something really important to communicate to my staff, I put in bullets.  I use clear, parallel language, so that everyone knows what I mean. 

When I need to communicate to my child, I use simple, clear words. 

Why is it when god has something important to say, he mixes up metaphors with absolute rules and prophesies and whatnot? 

It is almost as if god doesn't want us to understand it!

It's almost as if...God is imaginary! (http://godisimaginary.com)
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Jonny-UK on October 16, 2013, 03:59:11 PM
OK guys...you may have read the Bible and can rattle off what it SAYS, but do you know what it MEANS?
Hello Skeptics
I feel you are thinking that by understanding bible stories it somehow makes them correct.

Could I ask you to imagine that you had never read the bible (or any other religious book),then take a look around and see if anything at all points to a god or gods and if you think it does could you perhaps say why something points to your god and not one of the many others people have followed.
What gives your god validity over others ?
http://www.godchecker.com/

Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 04:03:31 PM
But how do you know that Christianity isn't a false religion, and demons created it to deceive people so they wouldn't follow Ba'al, the One True GodTM?

Because no religion was around before the fallen angels. Angels fell to earth and created false religions.

Yahweh demonstrated his power over them in the Bible.

Nobody has ever demonstrated power over Yahweh.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 16, 2013, 04:05:01 PM
But how do you know that Christianity isn't a false religion, and demons created it to deceive people so they wouldn't follow Ba'al, the One True GodTM?

Because no religion was around before the fallen angels. Angels fell to earth and created false religions.

Yahweh demonstrated his power over them in the Bible.

Nobody has ever demonstrated power over Yahweh.


And you have never demonstrated Yahweh. You are just reading and an ancient book (like all the religions do) and credulously believing it. Please refrain from assuming your religion is true in advance. You need to demonstrate that, not assume it.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 04:05:08 PM
jonnyUK,

^the Bible tells him so.

:P

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Dante on October 16, 2013, 04:07:55 PM
Yo Skepdude, you've made a valiant attempt to keep up. Fo realz. I don't think you know quite as much about your beliefs as you'd have us believe, however. I'm not sure you've ever heard the arguments against theism, and specifically your brand before you joined here.

But that's understandable in a country so awash in religion. It's so saturated in it, I don't even blame you for your lack of real knowledge. You were indoctrinated, brainwashed from a very young age, whether you realize it or not. You didn't have a choice. Even if your parents didn't cram it down your throat, metaphorically of course, I'm sure most of your peers were, and are, religious to some extent. So, up until now, it's not entirely your fault.

But now, you're in a room full of critical thinkers, metaphorically of course, who can educate your ignorance, if you have the mind to experience it.  If you choose not to give thought to the things we say, or the things you say, well…..that's on you.

So, moving on.

Maybe I missed some things you said, as the pages were flying by pretty quickly. But, I would appreciate if you would address at least a couple of the statements you've made, and the follow up viewpoints.

You said:


God didn't create anyone with sin. He gave us a choice. We didn't listen. Every day people choose to sin.

Anf said this:

Jesus was part of god since the beginning, so in his omniscience he knew right from the beginning that his sacrifice would have been necessary.  Which means that before man was created, Yahweh knew they would fail, Yahweh knew the flood would not work, knew at every intervention he made in the world that it would fail, so.......

Um.

Sorry, I think my apologetics just failed.  If (as 54768 claims) "Jesus knew he would be resurrected since the beginning of time", then Jesus/god knew before mankind was created that a sacrifice would be necessary.  Knew before Adam, before Eden, before the serpent, that mankind would fall.

And, knowing that, Yahweh created things anyway.  KNOWING that creating the serpent would lead to mankind's fall, Yahweh created it and allowed it into the garden.

So, where does the buck stop? How does it not stop with the one who created this alleged mess?

Then you said, in another post:

Eliminating all bad things conversely eliminates all the good things because the two words go together. The result would be a state of spiritual stagnation.

So I had to ask....are there no bad things in heaven? If not, is there spiritual stagnation? If not, why not?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: jdawg70 on October 16, 2013, 04:08:35 PM
I already explained that demons create false religions to deceive people and jesus warned us about it.
You know, I've asked in the past how you determine that your religious beliefs are not the result of a demon messing with you, deceiving you into believing a false religion.  Which you didn't address[1], but you've got a lot of people conversing with you all at once so that's pretty understandable if you missed it.

But it is, I think, an incredibly important question for you.  I'll try to explain.

You don't strike me as Catholic - you lean much more towards literal interpretation of the bible than typical Catholics do.  You've made no indications that you aren't Catholic, but you've certainly made no indications that you are Catholic.  So I'm going with some other variant of Christian (apparently the One True Christianity, but then again, you're certainly not the only one to claim such things).

Here's the strangeness that I see - you put an awful lot of trust in the validity of the bible.  Much of what you say here, you defer to the bible as the source of knowledge.  Now, you haven't mentioned which bible translation you're pulling things from, but one thing I am almost certain of is that you are using a version of the bible that was explicitly compiled by the Roman Catholic Church.  Compiled, as in decided what books belonged in the bible and what books didn't belong in the bible.  And probably some responsibility in actually getting the book on paper and handing it out to the people.

Now...you claim that there are demons - fairly powerful demons (though they pale in comparison to god's power) - that trick people into believing false religions.  You also claim that all other religions that are not the True Chrisitianity are false, the result of people being tricked by demons.  Presumably, the Catholic Church is one of these false religions.  You know, the Catholic Church that put together that bible of yours that you hold onto so dearly.

How do you know that the bible isn't just some trick on you by the demon that is tricking people into being Catholic?
 1. (at least I don't think so - this thread has blown up since I last visited)
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 04:08:43 PM
This last statement sounds like you believe in both grace AND works based salvation. You do know that is a logical contradiction, don't you? You can't be "saved by grace" but then say you must also "live through him" doing good works etc too. In any event though, you have just stated YOUR PERSONAL THEOLOGY. As I noted before, there are lots of theologies Christians justify by using the bible. So what.

"Faith without works is dead" is written in the Bible. We know a tree by its fruits. A bad tree does not bear good fruit.

Now, do you not understand the claims of other religions? Your first claim here is the same claim that many other religions make, and it is unsupported. Just saying, "Our church is the true one! Trust us! Watch out for everyone else! They are false!" doesn't prove anything. Car salesmen do this all the time regarding their competitors. Big deal. It doesn't prove you are correct.

it is not just me claiming they are false. Look up the Satanic symbols used at churches. The Catholics especially have satanic symbols all over the place. Look at the Vatican. Obelisk (a satanic symbol) is HUGE at the Vatican.

 The mormons have satanic imagery on their temple as well. Part of satanic freemasonry.

Look up on google. Plenty of images showing the raging satanic activity going on.

As I said before, they can't all be right but you can all be wrong.

Or one can be right. Christianity.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Benny on October 16, 2013, 04:09:26 PM
But how do you know that Christianity isn't a false religion, and demons created it to deceive people so they wouldn't follow Ba'al, the One True GodTM?

Because no religion was around before the fallen angels. Angels fell to earth and created false religions.

Yahweh demonstrated his power over them in the Bible.

Nobody has ever demonstrated power over Yahweh.

That completely does not answer my question one bit.  But that's not surprising, considering that you're in a habit of ignoring questions and just saying what you want.  That's called preaching, and even though I'm not a mod, I can assure you that it's not tolerated here at WWGHA.  Speaking of which, don't I remember you saying that you didn't plan on preaching?

I'm not here to preach, just to explain my point of view.

Yeah, thought so.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 04:13:19 PM
jdawg,

I have this feeling he's a Mormon, but, then, he hasn't mentioned Moroni, or Nephi, or whatever but he sounds like one.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Benny on October 16, 2013, 04:14:00 PM
Or one can be right. Christianity.

Or one can be right. Islam.
Or one can be right. Mormonism.
Or one can be right. Scientology.
Or one can be right. Pastafarianism.
Or one can be right. Hinduism.

Your point is...?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Jonny-UK on October 16, 2013, 04:14:56 PM
jonnyUK,

^the Bible tells him so.

:P

-Nam
Agreed.
Instead of the saying "thinking outside the box"
Perhaps we need to try "thinking outside the book"
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Benny on October 16, 2013, 04:16:51 PM
Instead of the saying "thinking outside the box"
Perhaps we need to try "thinking outside the book"

Jonny, I think you're gonna like it here.
Remember to make an intro thread--I can't wait to hear a bit about you. (Edit: did you make one already?  Too lazy to look)

jdawg,

I have this feeling he's a Mormon, but, then, he hasn't mentioned Moroni, or Nephi, or whatever but he sounds like one.

-Nam

Mormonism and Christianity aren't the same thing  :?

Also:

The mormons have satanic imagery on their temple as well. Part of satanic freemasonry.

So, no.  But you still get a consolation prize. *hands nam a cookie*
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 04:17:42 PM
jonnyUK,

^the Bible tells him so.

:P

-Nam
Agreed.
Instead of the saying "thinking outside the box"
Perhaps we need to try "thinking outside the book"

No. it is very dangerous to follow your own understanding. This is a demonic doctrine. It's even written in the Bible, "Lean not on your own understanding." Demons want you to believe that you know it all and you don't need God.

Only God has the understanding. Humans do not.

Obviously, you will disagree. Nothing I can do about that.

Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 04:19:50 PM
So? He says all but his church or form of Christianity is Satanic, that's what the Book of Mormon teaches.

But I'll take the cookie.

(munches)

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Zankuu on October 16, 2013, 04:19:55 PM
In other words, the Bible says to shut down critical thought; don't trust yourself, just read the Bible. THAT is dangerous, 54768, and it's the opposite of skepticism. Funny that word is in your username.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: jdawg70 on October 16, 2013, 04:21:35 PM
jdawg,

I have this feeling he's a Mormon, but, then, he hasn't mentioned Moroni, or Nephi, or whatever but he sounds like one.

-Nam

Well, at this point it would all be speculation.  He could be a member of the People's Front of Judea and I'm not sure I'd be able to tell.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 04:21:57 PM
jdawg,

I have this feeling he's a Mormon, but, then, he hasn't mentioned Moroni, or Nephi, or whatever but he sounds like one.

-Nam

No way. Moroni was a fallen angel telling Joseph Smith he was from God. I can see right through the tricks and games played by the demons and fallen angels. not everyone can and this is why I try to warn them about the doctrines they are following.

I have nothing against Mormons or Catholics. I am just very against their doctrines.


Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Benny on October 16, 2013, 04:22:42 PM
No. it is very dangerous to follow your own understanding. This is a demonic doctrine. It's even written in the Bible,

A couple of objections:

In other words, the Bible says to shut down critical thought; don't trust yourself, just read the Bible. THAT is dangerous, 54768, and it's the opposite of skepticism. Funny that word is in your username.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Jonny-UK on October 16, 2013, 04:22:57 PM


No. it is very dangerous to follow your own understanding. This is a demonic doctrine. It's even written in the Bible, "Lean not on your own understanding." Demons want you to believe that you know it all and you don't need God.

Only God has the understanding. Humans do not.

Obviously, you will disagree. Nothing I can do about that.
Same point...Anything outside of a book?

Thanks Benny for the welcome.
I did say hello in the introductions a while ago.Not been on for a few days.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Benny on October 16, 2013, 04:24:20 PM
Thanks Benny for the welcome.
I did say hello in the introductions a while ago.Not been on for a few days.

Ah, okay.  I'm just returning from a 2-year hiatus, so I'm a bit out of the loop :P
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 04:25:02 PM
In other words, the Bible says to shut down critical thought; don't trust yourself, just read the Bible. THAT is dangerous, 54768, and it's the opposite of skepticism. Funny that word is in your username.

Why is it dangerous to read the Bible?

Have you ever read the Sermon on the Mount?

How would it be dangerous to put those beliefs into practice?

jesus said "love your neighbor as yourself." Is it dangerous to put this into practice?

I've asked this question to atheists many times and I've never gotten a good answer. I don't see how pure love is dangerous.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: jdawg70 on October 16, 2013, 04:25:28 PM
No way. Moroni was a fallen angel telling Joseph Smith he was from God. I can see right through the tricks and games played by the demons and fallen angels. not everyone can and this is why I try to warn them about the doctrines they are following.

I have nothing against Mormons or Catholics. I am just very against their doctrines.
That sounds an awful lot like you using your own understanding to see the tricks and games being played.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Dante on October 16, 2013, 04:26:40 PM

No. it is very dangerous to follow your own understanding. This is a demonic doctrine. It's even written in the Bible, "Lean not on your own understanding." Demons want you to believe that you know it all and you don't need God.

Only God has the understanding. Humans do not.

Obviously, you will disagree. Nothing I can do about that.

No, we can agree that it's dangerous. We'll disagree about to whom it's dangerous, but it's dangerous, no doubt.

You see Skepdude, it's written in there to persuade people to NOT THINK. To follow blindly. And, it's no god that you're following. Religion is a tool used to CONTROL PEOPLE by other people who want to CONTROL PEOPLE. Uneducated masses, peasants, in early times. And if peasants started to think, to question authority, well then shit got real dangerous for the heirarchy. They could lose control, and power, and all the trappings that come with such.

You know, if there really was an all-knowing, all-powerful god that didn't want people to think for themselves, he must have real bad case of self doubt. Or a lack of real power.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Zankuu on October 16, 2013, 04:28:30 PM
Why is it dangerous to read the Bible?
If the Bible tells you that you can't trust yourself, that you can't rely on your own critical thinking skills and to just trust in it, that's dangerous.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 04:28:41 PM
Same point...Anything outside of a book?

Thanks Benny for the welcome.
I did say hello in the introductions a while ago.Not been on for a few days.

I don't believe the Bible just because it's an "old book". (By the way it is multiple books, not one.)

I know the Bible is true because of all the prophecies coming true. The writings of Paul sound exactly like what is happening in the world today. It's shocking how accurate it sounds. Almost like Paul had someone guiding him with his writing......perhaps from above......

believe me, if the bible was pure rubbish, I'd happily laugh at it and throw it out.

Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 04:30:10 PM
jdawg,

I have this feeling he's a Mormon, but, then, he hasn't mentioned Moroni, or Nephi, or whatever but he sounds like one.

-Nam

No way. Moroni was a fallen angel telling Joseph Smith he was from God. I can see right through the tricks and games played by the demons and fallen angels. not everyone can and this is why I try to warn them about the doctrines they are following.

I have nothing against Mormons or Catholics. I am just very against their doctrines.




I didn't know Moroni was mentioned in the Bible? but you believe it was a "fallen angel"? Which is quite telling of you. You believe in the existence of other religions as being true; otherwise, you wouldn't have worded it that way.

Well, there is another explanation but I'll refrain.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Benny on October 16, 2013, 04:34:06 PM
Why is it dangerous to read the Bible?

It's not dangerous to read the Bible, it's dangerous to read it and abandon all critical thinking skills and ability to question what you read because of it.  You have clearly done the latter, and as such, you are getting yourself in a ton of hot water.

The Bible has some good stuff.  It also has a LOT of bad stuff.  Like the part you quoted about not relying on understanding?  Yeah, that's poison.

I know the Bible is true because of all the prophecies coming true.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Failed_biblical_prophecies
There's a bunch of prophecies you may have forgotten, none of which came true.

believe me, if the bible was pure rubbish, I'd happily laugh at it and throw it out.

Funny--that's what I did when I realized the Bible was rubbish.  Maybe you should do that--it'll save some space in your brain for more important things than religion.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 04:36:21 PM
Like gum balls.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 16, 2013, 04:38:58 PM

"Faith without works is dead" is written in the Bible. We know a tree by its fruits. A bad tree does not bear good fruit.


Except no professing Christian claims to be perfect (aka - you still "sin"). So then this argument fails b/c you bear bad fruit all the time (in your "sin nature"). Thus, you can't tell who is or isn't a "true" Christian and you can't claim that all of the other denominations interpretations are incorrect. Mormons, for example, are far more moral people than most protestant sects I know of. Does that mean they are the ones who are "bearing good fruits" and you aren't? Do their actions make them true Christians?


Btw, your statements "according to the bible" are what are in question here in case you hadn't noticed. Why do you believe these things?

it is not just me claiming they are false. Look up the Satanic symbols used at churches. The Catholics especially have satanic symbols all over the place. Look at the Vatican. Obelisk (a satanic symbol) is HUGE at the Vatican.

 The mormons have satanic imagery on their temple as well. Part of satanic freemasonry.

Look up on google. Plenty of images showing the raging satanic activity going on.


And I'm sure these denominations would strongly disagree with your interpretation of their faith, wouldn't they? More importantly though, have you Googled the history of the symbols in your religion? The cross, for example is a pagan symbol which did not originate with Christianity. You really need to study your history a little more here. Here are two Christian sources for this:


http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/ARTB/k/471/Cross-Christian-Banner-Pagan-Relic.htm (http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/ARTB/k/471/Cross-Christian-Banner-Pagan-Relic.htm)
http://ministerofblog.wordpress.com/which-witch-is-which-testimonies-of-deliverance-from-the-darkest-pit/the-cross-the-true-history-of-a-very-pagan-symbol-the-inverted-cross-symbol-its-not-what-they-say-it-is/ (http://ministerofblog.wordpress.com/which-witch-is-which-testimonies-of-deliverance-from-the-darkest-pit/the-cross-the-true-history-of-a-very-pagan-symbol-the-inverted-cross-symbol-its-not-what-they-say-it-is/)

Christianity itself has borrowed or outright stolen from pagan mythology. Read Dr. Robert M. Price who exposes this (among many other scholars).


http://www.truthbeknown.com/easter.htm (http://www.truthbeknown.com/easter.htm)
http://depts.drew.edu/jhc/doherty_price.html (http://depts.drew.edu/jhc/doherty_price.html)

Or one can be right. Christianity.


Oh? and how do you know that?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: neopagan on October 16, 2013, 04:39:38 PM
Faith moving mountains is metaphorical.
The details about his life are simply facts: born of a virgin, feeding the masses etc.

is this really very hard to understand?
It may help everyone if you explain your process for determining that 'faith moving mountains' is metaphorical rather than literal.

I need help with this one too.... was cutting off the end of boys'/mens' penises methaphorical too?  If Abraham's wife laughed when she was told she'd have a baby in her 90s, then Abe had to chuckle a bit when he heard that bizzaro idea. 
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 16, 2013, 04:40:48 PM

I know the Bible is true because of all the prophecies coming true. The writings of Paul sound exactly like what is happening in the world today. It's shocking how accurate it sounds. Almost like Paul had someone guiding him with his writing......perhaps from above......

believe me, if the bible was pure rubbish, I'd happily laugh at it and throw it out.


Oh? What prophesies? Can you name one? Btw, a prediction is not a prophesy and correlation does not equal causation. I'm confident you know this, yes?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 04:41:04 PM
median,

The Bible tells him so.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 16, 2013, 04:43:57 PM

No. it is very dangerous to follow your own understanding. This is a demonic doctrine. It's even written in the Bible, "Lean not on your own understanding." Demons want you to believe that you know it all and you don't need God.

Only God has the understanding. Humans do not.

Obviously, you will disagree. Nothing I can do about that.


It's funny, and quite hypocritical, that you are leaning upon your own understanding here in order to tell us not to lead on our own understanding. In fact, you leaned on your own understanding when you read the bible and believed it. So this argument is false. If you didn't lean on your own understanding you wouldn't be able to get through the day, let alone be able to tell whether or not an old book was true or not.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 04:46:20 PM

No. it is very dangerous to follow your own understanding. This is a demonic doctrine. It's even written in the Bible, "Lean not on your own understanding." Demons want you to believe that you know it all and you don't need God.

Only God has the understanding. Humans do not.

Obviously, you will disagree. Nothing I can do about that.


It's funny, and quite hypocritical, that you are leaning upon your own understanding here in order to tell us not to lead on our own understanding. In fact, you leaned on your own understanding when you read the bible and believed it. So this argument is false. If you didn't lean on your own understanding you wouldn't be able to get through the day, let alone be able to tell whether or not an old book was true or not.

Contradictory humor at its best. Where's the popcorn?

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 04:50:42 PM
Except no professing Christian claims to be perfect (aka - you still "sin"). So then this argument fails b/c you bear bad fruit all the time (in your "sin nature"). Thus, you can't tell who is or isn't a "true" Christian and you can't claim that all of the other denominations interpretations are incorrect. Mormons, for example, are far more moral people than most protestant sects I know of. Does that mean they are the ones who are "bearing good fruits" and you aren't? Do their actions make them true Christians?

Neither Mormons nor protestants are the right faith. The people themselves may be good, but their leaders are certainly on Satan's side.

It makes me happy when they learn their faith is the work of demons and come to Jesus.

Btw, your statements "according to the bible" are what are in question here in case you hadn't noticed. Why do you believe these things?

Because the Bible has changed countless lives for the better and has prophecies in it. If the Bible didn't work nobody's lives would be changed for the better. People would read it and go "I don't feel anything." Instead people read it and get an overwhelming joy warming their hearts and change their whole outlook on things.

If the Bible was a joke, people would laugh when they read the Bible. They would say, "I don't understand I'm not feeling anything. This is stupid."



And I'm sure these denominations would strongly disagree with your interpretation of their faith, wouldn't they? More importantly though, have you Googled the history of the symbols in your religion? The cross, for example is a pagan symbol which did not originate with Christianity. You really need to study your history a little more here. Here are two Christian sources for this: [/quote]

I don't wear a cross. I'm not into symbols. Symbols are pagan in origin, you are right. That's why I don't use them. Jesus is enough for me. I don't need to wear a cross to show off.


Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Jonny-UK on October 16, 2013, 04:52:15 PM
believe me, if the bible was pure rubbish, I'd happily laugh at it and throw it out.
As I am sure people from other religions would do if they read the bible.
You follow the bible so must think other religious books are inaccurate.
Is there any thing outside the book(s) that points to the bible being the true religious book?
As Median said -what prophesies are coming true?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 16, 2013, 04:54:50 PM
It's this sort of thing that I was talking about earlier.  According to skeptic54768, his religion teaches us to be ignorant of everything except for itself.  That's the sort of thing that'll drive people away.

Other, more enlightened versions of Christianity don't say this.  If he promoted one of those, he'd probably reach more people, or at least not drive so many people further away.

Speaking of which...54768, why are you working so hard to make your religion look bad?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 04:56:30 PM
believe me, if the bible was pure rubbish, I'd happily laugh at it and throw it out.
As I am sure people from other religions would do if they read the bible.
You follow the bible so must think other religious books are inaccurate.
Is there any thing outside the book(s) that points to the bible being the true religious book?
As Median said -what prophesies are coming true?

No I can SHOW you the satanic symbols used in Catholicism and Mormonism and Islam.

Can you show me the Satanic symbols used to show the Bible false?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: William on October 16, 2013, 04:58:55 PM
It would matter if atheists believed in Satan, but they don't.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Dante on October 16, 2013, 04:59:41 PM
I have to wonder why simply reading the bible doesn't give everyone warm fuzzies.

Oh yeah, now I remember. Because its stupid. And violent. And mysogonistic. And homophobic. And incredulous. And has serious daddy issues.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Jonny-UK on October 16, 2013, 04:59:55 PM
If the Bible was a joke, people would laugh when they read the Bible. They would say, "I don't understand I'm not feeling anything. This is stupid."
+1 for the stupid vote (I must admit to not having read much of it though)
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: One Above All on October 16, 2013, 05:01:36 PM
Can you show me the Satanic symbols used to show the Bible false?

Can you show me the Satanic symbols used to show my religion (for lack of a better term in your limited lexicon) or Astreja's religion are false?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 05:03:20 PM
It's this sort of thing that I was talking about earlier.  According to skeptic54768, his religion teaches us to be ignorant of everything except for itself.  That's the sort of thing that'll drive people away.

Other, more enlightened versions of Christianity don't say this.  If he promoted one of those, he'd probably reach more people, or at least not drive so many people further away.

Speaking of which...54768, why are you working so hard to make your religion look bad?

You view it that way because you are on the outside. i completely understand that. To you, all religions just make claims and they all could be true. But, if you studied it as much as I did, you would see how easy it is to spot how other religions are satanic.

"Enlightened" versions of Christianity are wrong as well. If people are bending the Bible to correspond to man's research, then that is their problem.
That sounds like something Satan would say: "Do you really think evolution is false with all this evidence? It's true. Forget the Bible when discussing origins. Listen to me. Lean on your own understanding, not God's. If the bible is true, why did God give us all this evidence for evolution?"

The Bible does not need to bend to anyone and it's foolish to think it needs to be bent.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: jdawg70 on October 16, 2013, 05:04:19 PM
Because the Bible has changed countless lives for the better and has prophecies in it. If the Bible didn't work nobody's lives would be changed for the better. People would read it and go "I don't feel anything." Instead people read it and get an overwhelming joy warming their hearts and change their whole outlook on things.

If the Bible was a joke, people would laugh when they read the Bible. They would say, "I don't understand I'm not feeling anything. This is stupid."
Yeah, those demons you were alluding to are pretty powerful entities.  They write a book, call it a bible, and sucker a bunch of people into believing it's the Word of the True God by inducing positive feelings when people read it.

Seriously, you need to explain how you know the bible isn't the work of a demon trying to trick you.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25573.msg574327.html#msg574327
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 05:08:58 PM
skeptic,

"The leaders are the bad people, not the followers!" -- idiotic response. One could say the same for the leaders in your sect, or to go a step further: the leaders in the Bible. Jesus is/was a leader, yet he gets the free pass from being bad.

Quote
If the Bible was a joke, people would laugh when they read the Bible. They would say, "I don't understand I'm not feeling anything. This is stupid."

The Bible is a joke. I felt anger after reading the Bible the first time. It teaches people to hate not only themselves but everyone else. Why? Because Biblegod doesn't want just some of your love, it wants it all. Reminds me of the Ori from SG-1. It also teaches that there are people who are of a lower class such as women. It advocates slavery, and mass murder; genocide. It advocates death as a punishment for a person who keeps his/her family warm or fed at night by them working to do so (working on the Sabbath).

And it guises all this hatred with "love". There's no love in the Bible because you have to give all your love to Biblegod, all of it.

If I were a True Christian, and you told me you loved Jesus, I'd believe with all my heart you'd burn in Hell for it. Why? Because the Bible says so.

If you excuse the things in the Bible, which it seems you do, I'd think you a danger to society. If Biblegod  or Jesus commanded you, and you knew in your heart and soul it was really them, to kill a room of babies, you'd do it, wouldn't you? And to you, that's not evil or sinful or demonic, right?

That, in of itself, is scary. That, in of itself, is what religion, for the most part, teaches.

You're no better than those you refer to as demons.

Get over yourself.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: William on October 16, 2013, 05:09:19 PM
But, if you studied it as much as I did, you would see how easy it is to spot how other religions are satanic.

Seen any lately with a human sacrifice involved?  With an "innocent" gruesomely tortured to death?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: neopagan on October 16, 2013, 05:10:02 PM
Skep,
I've not had time to follow every bit of this thread, as I've been busy with a job I'm not getting paid for, and it's hard to keep up...

I wondered if you could tell me your favorite non-demon-posessed Christian apologist website?  It might be informative for us simple-minded types... Thanks
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Fiji on October 16, 2013, 05:10:09 PM
Because the Bible has changed countless lives for the better
And countless lives for the worse ... in fact, it has also changed countless lives into ... deaths

and has prophecies in it.
None of which have come true

If the Bible didn't work nobody's lives would be changed for the better. People would read it and go "I don't feel anything." Instead people read it and get an overwhelming joy warming their hearts and change their whole outlook on things.

I've come across people who feel the same about Star Trek or Star Wars or Iron Maiden lyrics or Brave New World or Harry Potter or Climbing Mount Improbable.

If the Bible was a joke, people would laugh when they read the Bible. They would say, "I don't understand I'm not feeling anything. This is stupid."
I've read the bible, all I feel is revulsion for the celestial Kim Jong-Un. The same Kim Jong-Un you seem to have elevated to a) an actual real life entity and b) someone worthy of worship

Now, here's the thing ... reread your own post and replace Bible with Quran, or with Dhammapada, or the Homeros, or the Edda ... why are those not true but yours is. After all, maybe the Edda is true and Odin is real. And the only reason you believe in the bible is because Loki, the trickster god, whispered in your ear, pretending to be biblegod, just to piss off Odin.

Or maybe Iblis tricked you into rejecting Allah. Allah did give him leave to do that, you know.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: William on October 16, 2013, 05:14:13 PM
If the Bible was a joke, people would laugh when they read the Bible. They would say, "I don't understand I'm not feeling anything. This is stupid."

Righto folks I'm calling this for a POE  :)  Nicely done skeptic54768  - had me going for a while - I even feel a little dirty at being so had.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 16, 2013, 05:14:23 PM
You view it that way because you are on the outside. i completely understand that. To you, all religions just make claims and they all could be true. But, if you studied it as much as I did, you would see how easy it is to spot how other religions are satanic.

Your audience right now is made up of people "on the outside".  People without your biases and preconceptions.  That's something you should take into account when communicating with people "on the outside" and adjust your message accordingly.  Unless you don't care about the effects of your words.

"Enlightened" versions of Christianity are wrong as well. If people are bending the Bible to correspond to man's research, then that is their problem.
That sounds like something Satan would say: "Do you really think evolution is false with all this evidence? It's true. Forget the Bible when discussing origins. Listen to me. Lean on your own understanding, not God's. If the bible is true, why did God give us all this evidence for evolution?"

So, true Christianity is not enlightened.  It is ignorant.  The problem with ignorant religions is that they are ill-equipped to make a case for themselves.  Because they're so damned ignorant.  Seeking truth is sinful...why so much to hide?

The Bible does not need to bend to anyone and it's foolish to think it needs to be bent.

You bend it all the time.  Hell, it's been bent already in order to make the copies you have access to today.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 05:17:31 PM
But, if you studied it as much as I did, you would see how easy it is to spot how other religions are satanic.

Seen any lately with a human sacrifice involved?  With an "innocent" gruesomely tortured to death?

That is a false view. Satan masquerades as an angel of light. He'll be very nice to you if you're worshiping him. He will make you think you are worshiping God. He will give you things and you will think it's God giving them to you. He'll be your best pal, your best buddy....until the End Times when he will just laugh at you.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 05:19:27 PM
But, if you studied it as much as I did, you would see how easy it is to spot how other religions are satanic.

Seen any lately with a human sacrifice involved?  With an "innocent" gruesomely tortured to death?

That is a false view. Satan masquerades as an angel of light. He'll be very nice to you if you're worshiping him. He will make you think you are worshiping God. He will give you things and you will think it's God giving them to you. He'll be your best pal, your best buddy....until the End Times when he will just laugh at you.

Yet, somehow you know for sure that's not the being you worship.

Hypocrite much?

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 05:20:32 PM
If the Bible was a joke, people would laugh when they read the Bible. They would say, "I don't understand I'm not feeling anything. This is stupid."

Righto folks I'm calling this for a POE  :)  Nicely done skeptic54768  - had me going for a while - I even feel a little dirty at being so had.

Why do I get called a fraud for expressing my beliefs?

heck, maybe all atheists are frauds. A lot of people do think atheistic beliefs are nonsense and that some of them are Christians posing to make atheists look bad.

let's not go down that road of "You're a fraud....no you're a fraud!"
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: One Above All on October 16, 2013, 05:21:00 PM
Yet, somehow you know for sure that's not the being you worship.

Hypocrite much?

Not hypocritical. Just stupid.

-Nam

-One
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Benny on October 16, 2013, 05:21:36 PM
That is a false view. Satan masquerades as an angel of light. He'll be very nice to you if you're worshiping him. He will make you think you are worshiping God. He will give you things and you will think it's God giving them to you. He'll be your best pal, your best buddy....until the End Times when he will just laugh at you.

Well, how do you know?

...wait...didn't we have this conversation already?

You're not understanding this though. I already explained that demons create false religions to deceive people and jesus warned us about it.

But how do you know that Christianity isn't a false religion, and demons created it to deceive people so they wouldn't follow Ba'al, the One True GodTM?

I pose the question again: HOW DO YOU KNOW?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Jonny-UK on October 16, 2013, 05:22:11 PM
He'll be very nice to you if you're worshiping him. He will make you think you are worshiping God. He will give you things and you will think it's God giving them to you. He'll be your best pal, your best buddy....until the End Times when he will just laugh at you.
Kind of a prayer hacking?
And what free gifts does he give if you join?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 05:24:48 PM
He'll be very nice to you if you're worshiping him. He will make you think you are worshiping God. He will give you things and you will think it's God giving them to you. He'll be your best pal, your best buddy....until the End Times when he will just laugh at you.
Kind of a prayer hacking?
And what free gifts does he give if you join?

XBOX ONE.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 05:25:03 PM
But, if you studied it as much as I did, you would see how easy it is to spot how other religions are satanic.

Seen any lately with a human sacrifice involved?  With an "innocent" gruesomely tortured to death?

That is a false view. Satan masquerades as an angel of light. He'll be very nice to you if you're worshiping him. He will make you think you are worshiping God. He will give you things and you will think it's God giving them to you. He'll be your best pal, your best buddy....until the End Times when he will just laugh at you.

Yet, somehow you know for sure that's not the being you worship.

Hypocrite much?

-Nam

It' not hypocritical. It's all out there plain as day for anyone to read. It's not just me who has this knowledge:

http://biblelight.net/verita.htm
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Jonny-UK on October 16, 2013, 05:27:17 PM
XBOX-Santa might need to up his game !
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 05:29:15 PM
It's nice of you to skip my comment before that. And you can babble all you wish but then for US it's not plain to see because in your mind WE are illiterate. Only you are literate. You said so yourself. So, which is it:

We're blind and can't see or we're not blind and we can see? You can't have it both ways.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 05:29:23 PM
He'll be very nice to you if you're worshiping him. He will make you think you are worshiping God. He will give you things and you will think it's God giving them to you. He'll be your best pal, your best buddy....until the End Times when he will just laugh at you.
Kind of a prayer hacking?
And what free gifts does he give if you join?

Why would you even WANT to even consider listening to Satan? he's a known liar and deceiver.

This goes back to my point of how no rehabilitation or education from God will make people turn away from the devil if they don't want to.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 16, 2013, 05:30:58 PM
Neither Mormons nor protestants are the right faith. The people themselves may be good, but their leaders are certainly on Satan's side.

It makes me happy when they learn their faith is the work of demons and come to Jesus.

And they say similar things about your "faith". I'm asking you how you know your belief is the correct one. Please demonstrate your beliefs, not just make empty claims b/c anyone can do that and it doesn't prove anything.

Because the Bible has changed countless lives for the better and has prophecies in it. If the Bible didn't work nobody's lives would be changed for the better. People would read it and go "I don't feel anything." Instead people read it and get an overwhelming joy warming their hearts and change their whole outlook on things.

If the Bible was a joke, people would laugh when they read the Bible. They would say, "I don't understand I'm not feeling anything. This is stupid."

You missed my questions completely. I didn't ask you how the bible makes people feel. I asked you how you know it's claims are true/accurate/authoritative etc. Muslims claims the Koran changes their lives. Hindus claim their text heals them and leads them to truth. But those are side issues to the question. Please answer the question.

I don't wear a cross. I'm not into symbols. Symbols are pagan in origin, you are right. That's why I don't use them. Jesus is enough for me. I don't need to wear a cross to show off.
That's good for you, but it doesn't change the fact that Christianity (and nearly every religion) borrowed from other religions of it's time (other pagan religions). Have you heard of Horus, Isis, Osiris, Mithra, Dionysis, Apollonius of Tyana, or Krishna? The dying and rising god story is not original to Christianity. Have you read the Epic of Gilgamesh btw? It predates the flood story by over 1000 years. These religions have all borrowed from one another in their superstition and gullibility. It has happened in nearly every ancient society in nearly every religion. The fact that you read the bible and assumed it was true because it made you feel good or important (or that it changed your life) doesn't tell us anything about whether or not it's contents are accurate to reality. Lots of books change people's lives. It doesn't make them true to the facts.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Jonny-UK on October 16, 2013, 05:31:15 PM
It' not hypocritical. It's all out there plain as day for anyone to read. It's not just me who has this knowledge:
http://biblelight.net/verita.htm
Again though..........anything outside the book(s)
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 16, 2013, 05:32:26 PM


No. it is very dangerous to follow your own understanding. This is a demonic doctrine. It's even written in the Bible, "Lean not on your own understanding." Demons want you to believe that you know it all and you don't need God.


Yes, Someone who thinks he is totally correct is dangerous, like the person below who thinks that everyone is wrong except him. In his fantasies he always thinks he is the hero of his god. He and his god are in total agreement. He is the one specially chosen to go to heaven because he can see that everyone else has a satanic religion. Could it be that his god is his own imagination?



Plenty of people think they are worshiping God, but they are following a false religion. Since I am not following a false religion, I am not one of those people that the verse is speaking about.

This is just the way it is. I have lead many people away from their false churches. I can only be the messenger.



Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 05:32:33 PM
That is a false view. Satan masquerades as an angel of light. He'll be very nice to you if you're worshiping him. He will make you think you are worshiping God. He will give you things and you will think it's God giving them to you. He'll be your best pal, your best buddy....until the End Times when he will just laugh at you.

Well, how do you know?

...wait...didn't we have this conversation already?

You're not understanding this though. I already explained that demons create false religions to deceive people and jesus warned us about it.

But how do you know that Christianity isn't a false religion, and demons created it to deceive people so they wouldn't follow Ba'al, the One True GodTM?

I pose the question again: HOW DO YOU KNOW?

The bible says that they are demons disguised as false gods.
How do you know Yahweh is a false god? Based on your own thoughts? This goes back to the "lean not on your own understanding" point.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: nogodsforme on October 16, 2013, 05:33:08 PM
This is one fun thread! Thank you for sticking with it, skeptic54768. You are all the way live, as we used to say back in the day, back in the Hood.

I am getting a bit of JW vibe from you, esp. with the stuff about demons making people believe false religions, not wearing crosses, and seeing satanic symbols everywhere. I was a JW from birth until I started thinking about it all. What I realize now is that if there was one true powerful god-being who really wanted everyone to know about it, everyone would know about it! How could it be otherwise? Why the need for convoluted explanations about god letting demons trick people into hell and so on?

There would be no way the world would look like it does--with most humans coming from polytheistic tribal backgrounds, if one god really existed. There would not be any need for missionaries going around telling people about the one god. We would all know about this one god automatically, the way everyone knows about the sun and the moon.

Maybe we would not all choose to worship it, but we would all know it existed. How could there be false religions, atheists or people changing from the one true faith to anything else? That would only happen if 1) god wanted it to happen or 2) there is no god.

When I lived in different countries, I studied up on lots of different religious traditions, and figured out that they were all wrong.  I stopped believing in all supernatural beings, because there is no good evidence that any exist. I will attend just about anyone's religious service and am willing to listen to anyone's spiel. But it better have good evidence if you expect me to think it is true.

One big thing that made me doubt the Jesus, was meeting so many good and kind people in  non-Christian cultures. There are honest, devout Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, pagans, wiccans, Rastas, santeros and vodun believers-- all of whom share the same basic human values. They love their kids and want them to have good lives. They want good health. They want to live in a peaceful and prosperous society. And they try to make this happen.

Even though most religions say that this life is not the main one and there is an even more important afterlife, nobody acts like they really think this. Nobody is in a big hurry to get to the next life.[1] In reality, everyone acts as though this is the only life they will get. Thank Shango.

Only Christians and Muslims bother to proselytize to others. The rest basically leave you alone to do your thing, or even combine several religions with no problem. The result is that there are very few actual rule-by-religion countries on the planet and few people want to live in one. Thank Thor.

What I have found is that people are basically smart, funny and decent, in spite of the silly, ignorant and contradictory stuff they claim to believe. No matter what their god(s) tell them to do, people don't generally go around robbing, enslaving, raping or killing others. All societies have made those things illegal in spite of their barbaric ancient religious texts and in fact, most people live almost as if they were atheists...... :angel:
 1. Well the few people who act like they really believe it are considered crazy by most everyone else...
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 05:34:11 PM
He'll be very nice to you if you're worshiping him. He will make you think you are worshiping God. He will give you things and you will think it's God giving them to you. He'll be your best pal, your best buddy....until the End Times when he will just laugh at you.
Kind of a prayer hacking?
And what free gifts does he give if you join?

Why would you even WANT to even consider listening to Satan? he's a known liar and deceiver.

This goes back to my point of how no rehabilitation or education from God will make people turn away from the devil if they don't want to.

Really? How do you know Satan is a known liar and deceiver? Oh, the Bible tells you so. Not evidence it's true. Try again.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 16, 2013, 05:34:58 PM
[size=78%]Why do I get called a fraud for expressing my beliefs?[/size]

heck, maybe all atheists are frauds. A lot of people do think atheistic beliefs are nonsense and that some of them are Christians posing to make atheists look bad.

let's not go down that road of "You're a fraud....no you're a fraud!"


Atheism isn't a belief. It is a lack of belief (just like being a non-astrologer). So there are no such things a "atheistic beliefs". Atheism is a response to a single question: Do you have a belief in a God? That is all. Any other subject has nothing to do with theism or atheism.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 05:38:13 PM
It' not hypocritical. It's all out there plain as day for anyone to read. It's not just me who has this knowledge:
http://biblelight.net/verita.htm
Again though..........anything outside the book(s)

That is outside the Bible!

Think about it logically:

Baal was a false god.
Baal had a symbol used for him.
Catholics use the symbol for Baal, a false god.
But, Catholics claim to follow Jesus.
So, why use a false satanic symbol?
The answer is to trick the people into helping them serve Satan. The people do not know that this is what their clergy is doing behind their backs. Clergy are using them as pawns in their sick game.

It's simple to see if you are knowledgeable about the subject. But, think about this point: It's very hard to get the catholics to agree, so imagine how difficult it will be to get an atheist to agree...
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Jonny-UK on October 16, 2013, 05:38:59 PM

Why would you even WANT to even consider listening to Satan? he's a known liar and deceiver.

This goes back to my point of how no rehabilitation or education from God will make people turn away from the devil if they don't want to.
As I see it-
God does not exist (so Jesus also does not exist).
Funnily enough, Satan also does NOT exist.
If I don't believe in one why would i believe in the other
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 05:39:55 PM
nogodsforme,

JW! Yes, makes sense. Should've thought of that. See, if wilson was still here it'd be a no-brainer. Or, if I were at IGI more often. I like that guy. He never gives up. Got to respect that. This guy could learn from wilson.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Benny on October 16, 2013, 05:41:22 PM
The bible says that they are demons disguised as false gods.
You're begging the question.

If I ask, "How do you know the bible's true?"  you'll say "because it's God's word."
If I ask, "How do you know it's God's word?" you'll say "because it's in the bible."

And so on and so forth.

It's circular reasoning, and as such, your point is invalid.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 16, 2013, 05:43:58 PM
skeptic54768, are you a member of the WatchTower Bible and Tract Society?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 16, 2013, 05:46:57 PM
It' not hypocritical. It's all out there plain as day for anyone to read. It's not just me who has this knowledge:
http://biblelight.net/verita.htm
Again though..........anything outside the book(s)

That is outside the Bible! ...

That was kind of his point, I think.  Earlier you said that anything outside the Bible should not be trusted.  Yet here you are citing something outside the Bible.

If you don't even believe yourself, then why should anyone else believe you?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 05:47:25 PM
[size=78%]Why do I get called a fraud for expressing my beliefs?[/size]

heck, maybe all atheists are frauds. A lot of people do think atheistic beliefs are nonsense and that some of them are Christians posing to make atheists look bad.

let's not go down that road of "You're a fraud....no you're a fraud!"


Atheism isn't a belief. It is a lack of belief (just like being a non-astrologer). So there are no such things a "atheistic beliefs". Atheism is a response to a single question: Do you have a belief in a God? That is all. Any other subject has nothing to do with theism or atheism.

I used to be an atheist so I know about the beliefs. Without belief in God, the universe came from nothing. That would have to be your belief. I know it was mine.

Once I realize how nonsensical that sounded, I decided to do some searching.

It takes intelligence to recognize intelligence in nature. Man can't even create a seed from nothing, but I somehow clung to faith that a seed came about on its own.

Ray Comfort has asked evolutionists for just one simple little proof of one species changing into another species and nobody has ever been able to give him an answer. I've seen his interviews.
Even PZ Myers in the interview said, "i can give you thousands of examples." Ray said "Just one." PZ said, "You don't want one though."

I couldn't be that dishonest anymore. it was like I was lying to myself. I always felt like something was nagging at me.

Show an atheist a drinking straw and they will claim "Design!"
Show an atheist the universe and they will say, "Chance and luck!" :o
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 05:48:27 PM
I don't know why I was thinking Mormon now. I knew it had to be a cuckoo sect.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: jaimehlers on October 16, 2013, 05:48:44 PM
Neither Mormons nor protestants are the right faith. The people themselves may be good, but their leaders are certainly on Satan's side.
And what will you do when you find out that your own religion is a sham, built not around saving people, but around increasing its membership by convincing people of other religions that they're following a false faith?  Which, by the way, is a very common theme in Christianity.

Quote from: skeptic54768
It makes me happy when they learn their faith is the work of demons and come to Jesus.
Naturally, because you've been thoroughly indoctrinated into believing that your faith is the only true one in existence, and everything else is the work of demons.  So of course you feel happiness when you validate your indoctrination by getting people to join your faith.

But that doesn't make anything you say true.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Because the Bible has changed countless lives for the better and has prophecies in it. If the Bible didn't work nobody's lives would be changed for the better. People would read it and go "I don't feel anything." Instead people read it and get an overwhelming joy warming their hearts and change their whole outlook on things.
It has also changed countless lives (many more than it has saved, I'd wager) for the worse, often by leading believers to massacre nonbelievers (and other believers, who didn't follow their particular creed).  By the way, the "false faiths" that you decry also use the Bible to support their own belief systems.  Yet, according to you, those are demonic deceptions...which means that the Bible is being used to lead all those people the wrong way.  Would you say it's changed all those lives for the better?

Quote from: skeptic54768
If the Bible was a joke, people would laugh when they read the Bible. They would say, "I don't understand I'm not feeling anything. This is stupid."
There's a truism that people who want something to work will keep trying until it does work.  This leads people who don't initially feel anything from the Bible to keep trying until they do feel something they can attribute to it.  Not only that, but people often feel joy from reading other things, which warms their hearts and changes their outlook.  This means that the Bible isn't necessarily the source of these strong feelings.

Quote from: skeptic54768
I don't wear a cross. I'm not into symbols. Symbols are pagan in origin, you are right. That's why I don't use them. Jesus is enough for me. I don't need to wear a cross to show off.
Fair enough.  But might the Bible not be a symbol to you?  Might Jesus not be a symbol to you?  Given that the mind works by using symbols, I find it highly unlikely that you have no symbols at all in your religion.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 05:50:56 PM
It' not hypocritical. It's all out there plain as day for anyone to read. It's not just me who has this knowledge:
http://biblelight.net/verita.htm
Again though..........anything outside the book(s)

That is outside the Bible! ...

That was kind of his point, I think.  Earlier you said that anything outside the Bible should not be trusted.  Yet here you are citing something outside the Bible.

If you don't even believe yourself, then why should anyone else believe you?

Pure silliness. I am outside the Bible. You can trust me.

if anyone is leading you to the proper way of the faith, they are not wrong. I am merely trying to explain my viewpoint of how I view my faith.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 05:52:09 PM
jaimehlers,

If he is a JW, then the Watchtower would be his symbol.

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Benny on October 16, 2013, 05:56:44 PM
if anyone is leading you to the proper way of the faith, they are not wrong.

So you believe that you are of the proper faith? *sigh*

I'm going to ask you this question again, Skeptic, and I need an answer or this conversation (between you and me) is over:

HOW DO YOU KNOW?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 16, 2013, 05:57:28 PM
Pure silliness. I am outside the Bible. You can trust me.

So you were lying earlier when you said that anything outside the book shouldn't be trusted.  Kind of means that I can't trust you, eh?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 06:00:08 PM
if anyone is leading you to the proper way of the faith, they are not wrong.

So you believe that you are of the proper faith? *sigh*

I'm going to ask you this question again, Skeptic, and I need an answer or this conversation (between you and me) is over:

HOW DO YOU KNOW?

Because of the Bible prophecies and my experience with God and other people's. My friend was reading the Gospel of Matthew and said he saw a flaming cross in front of him. This confirmed the Gospel for him. He was never into it until that day. now, he can't stop talking about it.

Things like that are why you can't convince me that it's false.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 06:00:40 PM
This dude's lost.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 06:00:57 PM
Pure silliness. I am outside the Bible. You can trust me.

So you were lying earlier when you said that anything outside the book shouldn't be trusted.  Kind of means that I can't trust you, eh?

You can trust people who tell you the right way. For they are the true witnesses.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 06:02:09 PM
This dude's lost.

-Nam

I used to be lost, but not anymore.

Why does it seem that atheists seem to judge over people's beliefs so much while simultaneously preaching tolerance?

I used to be the same way, but I never knew why I did it.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 06:02:16 PM
Pure silliness. I am outside the Bible. You can trust me.

So you were lying earlier when you said that anything outside the book shouldn't be trusted.  Kind of means that I can't trust you, eh?

You can trust people who tell you the right way. For they are the true witnesses.

More excuses and adding things after-the-fact.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 16, 2013, 06:03:01 PM


No. it is very dangerous to follow your own understanding. This is a demonic doctrine. It's even written in the Bible, "Lean not on your own understanding." Demons want you to believe that you know it all and you don't need God.


Yes, Someone who thinks he is totally correct is dangerous, like the person below who thinks that everyone is wrong except him. In his fantasies he always thinks he is the hero of his god. He and his god are in total agreement. He is the one specially chosen to go to heaven because he can see that everyone else has a satanic religion. Could it be that his god is his own imagination?



Plenty of people think they are worshiping God, but they are following a false religion. Since I am not following a false religion, I am not one of those people that the verse is speaking about.

This is just the way it is. I have lead many people away from their false churches. I can only be the messenger.


Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 06:03:32 PM
This dude's lost.

-Nam

I used to be lost, but not anymore.

Why does it seem that atheists seem to judge over people's beliefs so much while simultaneously preaching tolerance?

I used to be the same way, but I never knew why I did it.

Not what I meant: this dude HAS lost.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 16, 2013, 06:08:55 PM
I used to be an atheist so I know about the beliefs. Without belief in God, the universe came from nothing. That would have to be your belief. I know it was mine.

Once I realize how nonsensical that sounded, I decided to do some searching.

You obviously didn't do very much critical thinking back then because there arguments are false and logically fallacious. Again, atheism is not a belief in anything. It's a lack of belief. If you were an anti-theist that is a different claim altogether. Secondly, no one is stating the universe came from nothing (not scientists, not atheists, and not even you!). Is God eternal according to you? If so, then the universe came from something, namely God. So please stop with the "from nothing" argument. It is absurd. And no, it is not my belief!

So it looks like your beliefs have been faulty the whole time, because regardless of what you claimed then or now your arguments have been irrational.

It takes intelligence to recognize intelligence in nature. Man can't even create a seed from nothing, but I somehow clung to faith that a seed came about on its own.

You were wrong then for having "faith" and you are still wrong. If you had solid evidence and sound reasoning you wouldn't need faith - b/c faith is unreliable for telling truth from fiction. "Intelligence" (i.e. - design) is distinguished from nature. We contrast nature with human design. But unlike humans designing things you have no demonstrations of gods designing universes. Your argument here stems from the logical fallacy called The Argument from Ignorance/Incredulity.


Ray Comfort has asked evolutionists for just one simple little proof of one species changing into another species and nobody has ever been able to give him an answer. I've seen his interviews.
Even PZ Myers in the interview said, "i can give you thousands of examples." Ray said "Just one." PZ said, "You don't want one though."

Like you, Ray Comfort does not understand what the theory of evolution actually teaches. You are both ignorant of the subject[1] Species do not "change into another species". This is a flaw with your conception of what evolution is, not the theory itself. Sorry, your ignorance does not disprove scientific facts. See here: [/size]http://talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html (http://talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html)

I couldn't be that dishonest anymore. it was like I was lying to myself. I always felt like something was nagging at me.

The dishonesty is all on you based upon your ignorance and flawed irrational thinking processes that lead you to false conclusions. What should be nagging at you is whether or not you are being intellectually honest and trying to be logical instead of using logical fallacies to support your assumptions.

Show an atheist a drinking straw and they will claim "Design!"
Show an atheist the universe and they will say, "Chance and luck!" :o

1. NOPE. I will claim HUMAN design.
2. NOPE. I will say let's investigate and not assume what makes us feel comfortable. Let's admit ignorance and withhold judgment until we have sound evidence.
 1. btw, did you know that "theory" is the highest point in science? See here: http://www.notjustatheory.com/ (http://www.notjustatheory.com/)
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 16, 2013, 06:10:56 PM
You can trust people who tell you the right way. For they are the true witnesses.


You mean you can trust people who are telling you the right way to think critically and stop using logical fallacies?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 06:12:17 PM
Yes, Someone who thinks he is totally correct is dangerous, like the person below who thinks that everyone is wrong except him. In his fantasies he always thinks he is the hero of his god. He and his god are in total agreement. He is the one specially chosen to go to heaven because he can see that everyone else has a satanic religion. Could it be that his god is his own imagination?

lol I am not dangerous. I find it funny that atheists seem to describe Christians as dangerous. How dangerous were you guys when you were Christians? Did you yell at yourself for being dangerous?

I am all about loving one another and wanting people to get on the right path and stop worshiping demons. I can only be the messenger though. Only they know what is in their hearts.

I'm certainly not going to lie and say "The Catholic Church worships Jesus" when all evidence indicates they are into Satan.

If they want to be taken seriously, they need to get rid of all that Satanic imagery and pagan sun worship.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 16, 2013, 06:13:42 PM
Because of the Bible prophecies and my experience with God and other people's. My friend was reading the Gospel of Matthew and said he saw a flaming cross in front of him. This confirmed the Gospel for him. He was never into it until that day. now, he can't stop talking about it.

Things like that are why you can't convince me that it's false.

So basically, you are gullible and don't really care whether or not your beliefs are true. You just want to believe what makes you feel comfortable so you ignore any negative evidence and only focus on what confirms your belief.

Do you know what that is called?

CONFIRMATION BIAS
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 06:14:02 PM
I was a Christian last when I was 12 or 13 years old. I had other things on my mind.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 16, 2013, 06:16:18 PM
You can trust people who tell you the right way. For they are the true witnesses.

Sounds pretty outside-the-book to me.  Just like that website.  Very outside-the-book.

So you were lying earlier.  Must not be a true witness.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 06:16:46 PM
Oh, and most politicians in the US are Christians and they inact laws that do harm to people, many based on what the Bible states. So, yeah, Christian can, have, and will be dangerous.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 06:17:52 PM
Like you, Ray Comfort does not understand what the theory of evolution actually teaches. You are both ignorant of the subject[1] Species do not "change into another species". This is a flaw with your conception of what evolution is, not the theory itself. Sorry, your ignorance does not disprove scientific facts. See here: [/size]http://talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html (http://talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html)
 1. btw, did you know that "theory" is the highest point in science? See here: http://www.notjustatheory.com/ (http://www.notjustatheory.com/)

It isn't Ray Comfort who didn't understand it then, it would be PZ Myers. Ray asked him for an example of one species changing into another. PZ said, "I can give you thousands of examples!"

Why would PZ say that if species don't change? Does PZ not know evolution?

Then Ray said, "Just one." PZ said, "You don't want one."
So on one hand he said he can produce thousands of examples and on another hand he wouldn't do it, and on the third hand, evolution doesn't work like that....

What a mess.  :(
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 06:20:27 PM
Oh, and most politicians in the US are Christians and they inact laws that do harm to people, many based on what the Bible states. So, yeah, Christian can, have, and will be dangerous.

-Nam

Which laws harm people? Please be specific.

The Bible says that everyone is equal. This is in contrast with other faiths who think some people are superior, like Islam. Women are treated terribly in Islam, but given free choices in Christianity.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: jaimehlers on October 16, 2013, 06:24:15 PM
I used to be an atheist so I know about the beliefs. Without belief in God, the universe came from nothing. That would have to be your belief. I know it was mine.
So tempting to say, "you weren't really an atheist if you believed in that nonsense", but thankfully I know better - that would be the No True Atheist fallacy.

The only thing that someone needs in order to call themselves an atheist is to not believe in gods.  There is no other commonality.  So for you to claim that the atheists here must believe that the universe came from nothing is an example of the No True Atheist fallacy I pointed out above.  There's no reason at all that any atheist has to believe the universe came from nothing.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Once I realize how nonsensical that sounded, I decided to do some searching.
What it sounds like is you made the mistake of assuming that if you backtracked to before the Big Bang, nothing would exist.  But, as you say, that's nonsensical, but not for the reason you probably assumed.  It's nonsensical because there's no way at all to know what came before the Big Bang.  Anything we come up with is just going to be pure speculation.  We don't know what came before the Big Bang, and we probably will never know.

Quote from: skeptic54768
It takes intelligence to recognize intelligence in nature. Man can't even create a seed from nothing, but I somehow clung to faith that a seed came about on its own.
No, it takes intelligence to recognize patterns in nature.  By the way, if humans can't create something from nothing, why do you think a god can?  You have to give this god supernatural powers and arbitrarily say that it can make something from nothing for that answer to work - the problem is, there's no way at all that you can ever prove it to be true.  Your only recourse is to keep insisting that it must be true without evidence and hope that people believe you if you repeat it enough - which reminds me of the adage about how if you tell a lie often enough, eventually people will start to believe it's true.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Ray Comfort has asked evolutionists for just one simple little proof of one species changing into another species and nobody has ever been able to give him an answer. I've seen his interviews.
Even PZ Myers in the interview said, "i can give you thousands of examples." Ray said "Just one." PZ said, "You don't want one though."
What Ray Comfort wanted was someone to point to an example of evolution actually happening at that very moment - a species metamorphosing from one form to another.  But that isn't how evolution works.  It works even more gradually than dripping water eroding a boulder.  Ray Comfort's question is like someone asking for proof that water dripping onto rock will gradually erode it by showing the rock eroding before their eyes, and then claiming that it really doesn't erode because nobody can show him an example of rock actually eroding.  Yet, people could show tons of evidence that rocks do in fact erode - just as there's tons of evidence that species do in fact evolve.  It's just that they can't show it happening before someone's very eyes.

Quote from: skeptic54768
I couldn't be that dishonest anymore. it was like I was lying to myself. I always felt like something was nagging at me.
That nagging feeling you had?  That was your skepticism, the part of you that asks, "is this really true?"  Nothing wrong with it - it's actually good to be skeptical of what you think you know.  The problem is, you've stopped being willing to do that.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Show an atheist a drinking straw and they will claim "Design!"
Show an atheist the universe and they will say, "Chance and luck!" :o
We can go to a straw factory and observe straws being made by people.  Thus, design is a reasonable answer for a straw.  However we can't go to a star factory and watch a god making stars.  What we can do is observe the process of stars forming through what appears to be purely natural means.  Thus, it isn't reasonable to claim that stars (or other things in the universe) are designed, and certainly not by metaphysical beings that we can't even observe.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 16, 2013, 06:29:42 PM
It isn't Ray Comfort who didn't understand it then, it would be PZ Myers. Ray asked him for an example of one species changing into another. PZ said, "I can give you thousands of examples!"

Why would PZ say that if species don't change? Does PZ not know evolution?

Then Ray said, "Just one." PZ said, "You don't want one."
So on one hand he said he can produce thousands of examples and on another hand he wouldn't do it, and on the third hand, evolution doesn't work like that....

What a mess.  :(

The "mess" is located squarely upon your willingness to drop the context of the discussion and be gullible enough to accept trickey film editing (The "Evolution VS God" video right?). The video is cleverly edited so as to leave out what is meant by what is being said. Earlier you made reference to the significance of what someone means when they are speaking but now you are willing to drop the context of the discussion and just believe what tickles your ears from an edited video. Dishonest much? And you call yourself a follower of Jesus? Surprising.

There are numerous examples of speciation. Problem is, you are purely ignorant of the subject as a whole (and what the theory states). So demonstrating it to you is pointless b/c you don't know the science (nor does it seem do you care to know). You just want to ignore anything that contradicts your faith - and that is called intellectual hypocrisy. Sorry, your mess is self-induced.


More importantly though, your God belief is not the default position when we don't know something. Even if you could prove the theory of evolution (and all it's supporting facts) wrong tomorrow this wouldn't get you even one tiny step closer to YOUR belief being the right one. You don't win by default. Again, stop using logical fallacies.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 06:33:35 PM
What it sounds like is you made the mistake of assuming that if you backtracked to before the Big Bang, nothing would exist.  But, as you say, that's nonsensical, but not for the reason you probably assumed.  It's nonsensical because there's no way at all to know what came before the Big Bang. Anything we come up with is just going to be pure speculation.  We don't know what came before the Big Bang, and we probably will never know.

That's why I became skeptical of atheism. If we don't know what happened before the big bang, then saying, "It wasn't God" is a nonsensical statement.

God can't be ruled out if we don't know.
To say otherwise is a "nature of the gaps" argument.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 06:35:25 PM
It isn't Ray Comfort who didn't understand it then, it would be PZ Myers. Ray asked him for an example of one species changing into another. PZ said, "I can give you thousands of examples!"

Why would PZ say that if species don't change? Does PZ not know evolution?

Then Ray said, "Just one." PZ said, "You don't want one."
So on one hand he said he can produce thousands of examples and on another hand he wouldn't do it, and on the third hand, evolution doesn't work like that....

What a mess.  :(

The "mess" is located squarely upon your willingness to drop the context of the discussion and be gullible enough to accept trickey film editing (The "Evolution VS God" video right?). The video is cleverly edited so as to leave out what is meant by what is being said. Earlier you made reference to the significance of what someone means when they are speaking but now you are willing to drop the context of the discussion and just believe what tickles your ears from an edited video. Dishonest much? And you call yourself a follower of Jesus? Surprising.

There are numerous examples of speciation. Problem is, you are purely ignorant of the subject as a whole (and what the theory states). So demonstrating it to you is pointless b/c you don't know the science (nor does it seem do you care to know). You just want to ignore anything that contradicts your faith - and that is called intellectual hypocrisy. Sorry, your mess is self-induced.

Maybe I do have it wrong. Hey it's possible right?

OK, so if species do not change into other species over time, where do other species come from?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 06:42:49 PM
So basically, you are gullible and don't really care whether or not your beliefs are true. You just want to believe what makes you feel comfortable so you ignore any negative evidence and only focus on what confirms your belief.

Do you know what that is called?

CONFIRMATION BIAS

My friend saw a flaming cross in front of his face. I experienced answered prayers by the boatloads that you can't convince me are just coincidences.

Believers don't just have blind faith. They actually experienced God and felt his presence. I can't prove it to you empirically but God is above empiricism. Nobody can empirically math exists. You can't experience math with your 5 senses, yet you believe math exists.

All the formulas for math can not be observed anywhere except in the mind. Math is immaterial, which paves the way for other immaterial things to exist as well.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 16, 2013, 06:43:12 PM
Maybe I do have it wrong. Hey it's possible right?

OK, so if species do not change into other species over time, where do other species come from?


Please visit this link and begin educating yourself as to what the theory of evolution actually is - and stop listening to crazy creationists who don't know the science.


http://talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html (http://talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html)


Speciation does not mean that organisms "change into other species". It means there is a change in the genetic makeup (a split in lineage) which often results in the two lineages being unable to interbreed. Your best bet would be to ignore the creationists and take a few college courses in biology and anthropology.


http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VSpeciation.shtml (http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VSpeciation.shtml)
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 06:49:10 PM
Oh, and most politicians in the US are Christians and they inact laws that do harm to people, many based on what the Bible states. So, yeah, Christian can, have, and will be dangerous.

-Nam

Which laws harm people? Please be specific.

Stand Your Ground.
Laws in certain places force Christianity on others by placing their religion in public areas.
Laws in many places prevent women from getting the medical treatment they need all because Christians are against one single aspect of the treatment they seek.
Enacting laws against certain people because they don't care how they live their lives.

I could be more blunt but you get what I'm saying, and the reason why I'm not being more blunt is because you'll throw Bible verses at me, and then I'll do the same.
Look at the situation we're in now with the shutdown, and the debt crisis. Christian politicians not getting what they want so they'll take us all down with them until they get the laws they want. The Christian Nation they want. All in the name of Jesus. Some states are ruled by Christianity, their laws reflect that. And it harms people, even Christians.

Quote
The Bible says that everyone is equal. This is in contrast with other faiths who think some people are superior, like Islam. Women are treated terribly in Islam, but given free choices in Christianity.

The Bible does not say everyone is equal. Women are not equal to men. It promotes slavery. etc.,

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 16, 2013, 06:49:47 PM
My friend saw a flaming cross in front of his face. I experienced answered prayers by the boatloads that you can't convince me are just coincidences.


How do you separate coincidences from non-coincidences? If no one can convince you of truth and facts then you aren't being intellectually honest (i.e. - your belief is FIXED instead of moving with the evidence and good reason). So you are doing just as I said, practicing Confirmation Bias. You are leading the evidence instead of being lead by it. That is dishonesty.

Believers don't just have blind faith. They actually experienced God and felt his presence. I can't prove it to you empirically but God is above empiricism. Nobody can empirically math exists. You can't experience math with your 5 senses, yet you believe math exists.


Math is a tool used by human minds. Numbers exist only in human minds. Are you admitting then that God exists only in your mind? Lots of religions claim to have experiences. It doesn't make their interpretation of their claims correct - b/c lots of people's experiences are misinterpreted and unreliable. I'm sorry, these arguments are not new. I used to use them years ago. They are irrational. That is what it boils down to.

All the formulas for math can not be observed anywhere except in the mind. Math is immaterial, which paves the way for other immaterial things to exist as well.


No, math is a property of what a brain does in abstraction and just because people have created a language to communicate specific mathematical concepts does not mean there are "immaterial numbers" that exist somewhere. This is what Plato tried to argue and it's false. It was refuted a long time ago. Again, you are ignorant of these things and need to do more homework, study, and investigation.


I'm going to work now - be back later...
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 06:51:13 PM
Maybe I do have it wrong. Hey it's possible right?

OK, so if species do not change into other species over time, where do other species come from?


Please visit this link and begin educating yourself as to what the theory of evolution actually is - and stop listening to crazy creationists who don't know the science.


http://talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html (http://talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html)


Speciation does not mean that organisms "change into other species". It means there is a change in the genetic makeup (a split in lineage) which often results in the two lineages being unable to interbreed. Your best bet would be to ignore the creationists and take a few college courses in biology and anthropology.


http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VSpeciation.shtml (http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VSpeciation.shtml)

I have heard the arguments for speciation. We are not talking about a fly becoming a different species of fly. This is easy to understand. If you have a species of fly and they get separated from each other, over time they will not be able to interbreed and become a different species. Yet, they are still flys.

This does not explain how other species come about, like mosquitoes. Species can only keep branching off but they will still be the same thing no matter how many species come of it.

"We have flys, but after billions of years, you'll get a mosquito" is just not possible. You would still have flys.

Try this website:
http://www.trueorigin.org/

They do a great job at responding to talk origins point by point. This is how I gave up belief in an old earth and evolution.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 16, 2013, 06:54:24 PM
Maybe I do have it wrong. Hey it's possible right?

OK, so if species do not change into other species over time, where do other species come from?


Please visit this link and begin educating yourself as to what the theory of evolution actually is - and stop listening to crazy creationists who don't know the science.


http://talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html (http://talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html)


Speciation does not mean that organisms "change into other species". It means there is a change in the genetic makeup (a split in lineage) which often results in the two lineages being unable to interbreed. Your best bet would be to ignore the creationists and take a few college courses in biology and anthropology.


http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VSpeciation.shtml (http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VSpeciation.shtml)

I have heard the arguments for speciation. We are not talking about a fly becoming a different species of fly. This is easy to understand. If you have a species of fly and they get separated from each other, over time they will not be able to interbreed and become a different species. Yet, they are still flys.

This does not explain how other species come about, like mosquitoes. Species can only keep branching off but they will still be the same thing no matter how many species come of it.

"We have flys, but after billions of years, you'll get a mosquito" is just not possible. You would still have flys.

Try this website:
http://www.trueorigin.org/ (http://www.trueorigin.org/)

They do a great job at responding to talk origins point by point. This is how I gave up belief in an old earth and evolution.


You accepted the Argument from Ignorance/Incredulity Fallacy and that's why you gave up good science? WOW. That's funny for someone who doesn't know and has not studied the science.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 06:58:26 PM
Stand Your Ground.
Laws in certain places force Christianity on others by placing their religion in public areas.
Laws in many places prevent women from getting the medical treatment they need all because Christians are against one single aspect of the treatment they seek.
Enacting laws against certain people because they don't care how they live their lives.

I could be more blunt but you get what I'm saying, and the reason why I'm not being more blunt is because you'll throw Bible verses at me, and then I'll do the same.
Look at the situation we're in now with the shutdown, and the debt crisis. Christian politicians not getting what they want so they'll take us all down with them until they get the laws they want. The Christian Nation they want. All in the name of Jesus. Some states are ruled by Christianity, their laws reflect that. And it harms people, even Christians.

The shutdown has nothing to do with Christianity. Republicans have always hated democrats.


In all fairness, it's not fair to ignore Christianity and enact laws that have nothing to do with it. Doing that offends people as well. When both sides are offended at the laws, there's nothing you can do about it except argue forever.

Christians don't want the sin of homosexual marriage to be legal, but that offends the homosexuals.

Likewise, homosexuals want gay marriage legal, but that offends the Christians who don't want sin to be legal.

The Bible does not say everyone is equal. Women are not equal to men. It promotes slavery. etc.,

-Nam

Genesis 2:
24For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.

sounds even steven to me.  :)
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on October 16, 2013, 07:07:20 PM
Oh, and most politicians in the US are Christians and they inact laws that do harm to people, many based on what the Bible states. So, yeah, Christian can, have, and will be dangerous.

-Nam

Which laws harm people? Please be specific.

Stand Your Ground.
Laws in certain places force Christianity on others by placing their religion in public areas.
Laws in many places prevent women from getting the medical treatment they need all because Christians are against one single aspect of the treatment they seek.
Enacting laws against certain people because they don't care how they live their lives.

I could be more blunt but you get what I'm saying, and the reason why I'm not being more blunt is because you'll throw Bible verses at me, and then I'll do the same.
Look at the situation we're in now with the shutdown, and the debt crisis. Christian politicians not getting what they want so they'll take us all down with them until they get the laws they want. The Christian Nation they want. All in the name of Jesus. Some states are ruled by Christianity, their laws reflect that. And it harms people, even Christians.

Quote
The Bible says that everyone is equal. This is in contrast with other faiths who think some people are superior, like Islam. Women are treated terribly in Islam, but given free choices in Christianity.

The Bible does not say everyone is equal. Women are not equal to men. It promotes slavery. etc.,

-Nam
not to mention laws against Gay people
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 16, 2013, 07:11:37 PM

lol I am not dangerous. I find it funny that atheists seem to describe Christians as dangerous.

I was quoting you as you saw in my reply. That's twice in this quote that you have accused others of what you do yourself!



No. it is very dangerous to follow your own understanding. This is a demonic doctrine. It's even written in the Bible, "Lean not on your own understanding." Demons want you to believe that you know it all and you don't need God.


Yes, Someone who thinks he is totally correct is dangerous, like the person below who thinks that everyone is wrong except him. In his fantasies he always thinks he is the hero of his god. He and his god are in total agreement. He is the one specially chosen to go to heaven because he can see that everyone else has a satanic religion. Could it be that his god is his own imagination?



Plenty of people think they are worshiping God, but they are following a false religion. Since I am not following a false religion, I am not one of those people that the verse is speaking about.

This is just the way it is. I have lead many people away from their false churches. I can only be the messenger.




Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 07:13:06 PM
skeptic,

You think that homosexuals being able to marry only offends them? That's like saying during the Civil War only blacks were against slavery because they were slaves.

Idiotic.

And to think that this is just Democrats against Republicans (political ideology) you're deluded. For conservative Republicans, who are all mainly Christian, it's their religion that drives them not their politics.

Quote
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.1 Corinthian s 11:3:

Want more where the Bible states women are inferior to men?

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on October 16, 2013, 07:13:11 PM
But, if you studied it as much as I did, you would see how easy it is to spot how other religions are satanic.

Seen any lately with a human sacrifice involved?  With an "innocent" gruesomely tortured to death?

That is a false view. Satan masquerades as an angel of light. He'll be very nice to you if you're worshiping him. He will make you think you are worshiping God. He will give you things and you will think it's God giving them to you. He'll be your best pal, your best buddy....until the End Times when he will just laugh at you.
can you prove this statement?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 07:19:07 PM
Oh, and most politicians in the US are Christians and they inact laws that do harm to people, many based on what the Bible states. So, yeah, Christian can, have, and will be dangerous.

-Nam

Which laws harm people? Please be specific.

Stand Your Ground.
Laws in certain places force Christianity on others by placing their religion in public areas.
Laws in many places prevent women from getting the medical treatment they need all because Christians are against one single aspect of the treatment they seek.
Enacting laws against certain people because they don't care how they live their lives.

I could be more blunt but you get what I'm saying, and the reason why I'm not being more blunt is because you'll throw Bible verses at me, and then I'll do the same.
Look at the situation we're in now with the shutdown, and the debt crisis. Christian politicians not getting what they want so they'll take us all down with them until they get the laws they want. The Christian Nation they want. All in the name of Jesus. Some states are ruled by Christianity, their laws reflect that. And it harms people, even Christians.

Quote
The Bible says that everyone is equal. This is in contrast with other faiths who think some people are superior, like Islam. Women are treated terribly in Islam, but given free choices in Christianity.

The Bible does not say everyone is equal. Women are not equal to men. It promotes slavery. etc.,

-Nam
not to mention laws against Gay people

I indirectly mentioned them.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on October 16, 2013, 07:24:07 PM
Sorry Nam :-[
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 07:26:15 PM
Sorry Nam :-[

Well, it probably could be interpreted for other people. I just didn't want to get into a religious fist-a-cuffs. I have my fun other ways.

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 16, 2013, 07:32:31 PM
Genesis 2:
24For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.

sounds even steven to me.  :)

Pretty big stretch.  There you go, bending the Bible to your will.  You're its master, after all...
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 16, 2013, 07:57:18 PM
skeptic,

You think that homosexuals being able to marry only offends them? That's like saying during the Civil War only blacks were against slavery because they were slaves.

Idiotic.

And to think that this is just Democrats against Republicans (political ideology) you're deluded. For conservative Republicans, who are all mainly Christian, it's their religion that drives them not their politics.

It's not the religion that drives them though. They just think Obama's healthcare plan is stupid and not well thought out.

What does that have to do with religion?

Quote
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.1 Corinthian s 11:3:

Want more where the Bible states women are inferior to men?

-Nam
[/quote]

How is that inferior to women? Christ is above both man and woman. If the man is not leading with a Christlike example, the woman can leave. Why would she stay with someone who is not being Christlike?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 16, 2013, 08:07:14 PM
If the man is not leading with a Christlike example, the woman can leave. Why would she stay with someone who is not being Christlike?

If the man thinks he is Christlike, he's got a problem, and so has she.

Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on October 16, 2013, 08:35:32 PM
Excellent questions! I used to ask these same questions! Remarkable!

Anyway, you are still looking at it from a materialistic point of view. This was a big hurdle for me too. Remember that death is not the end. That is just your belief. I know it's hard for atheists to get the materialistic view out of their heads, but our side is not predicated on the materialistic side. This is why I came to learn that many of the atheistic questions are just based on materialism.

To really understand this requires much understanding of God.

Sorry this response is so late, given that this thread is moving at about a million miles an hour.

However, in the post to which I was responding you said that a person shouldn't be forced to date someone they didn't want to date, because that would violate their free will. So I expounded on it, and now you are saying that I am looking at it in a materialistic way. You're the one who started it. With the dating thing. So the question is, are you using your free will to change the goal posts, or are the goalposts using their free will to foil you?

Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: jaimehlers on October 16, 2013, 09:51:26 PM
I have heard the arguments for speciation. We are not talking about a fly becoming a different species of fly. This is easy to understand. If you have a species of fly and they get separated from each other, over time they will not be able to interbreed and become a different species. Yet, they are still flys.

This does not explain how other species come about, like mosquitoes. Species can only keep branching off but they will still be the same thing no matter how many species come of it.

"We have flys, but after billions of years, you'll get a mosquito" is just not possible. You would still have flys.
If you can have speciation moving forwards in time, why then can you not backtrack in time and have species which are dissimilar now originally come from some ancestor that had traits of both?

Quote from: skeptic54768
Try this website:
http://www.trueorigin.org/

They do a great job at responding to talk origins point by point. This is how I gave up belief in an old earth and evolution.
Looked at the front page.  So far, I'm totally unimpressed.  The site seems to be based on two related premises - that when people talk about and defend evolution, what they really mean is the (religious) doctrine of evolutionism, which they defend zealously and dogmatically[1], and that creation science is a reasonable alternative to this "religion of evolutionism".  Basically, creating a strawman parody of evolutionary theory, and then presenting themselves as reasonable compared to it.  I'm not holding out much hope for the rebuttals on the website being particularly sensible.

For example, I read the "Thermodynamics vs Evolutionism" (http://"Thermodynamics vs Evolutionism") article, which purports to be a rebuttal to TalkOrigins 'claims' of immunity for evolutionism from thermodynamics.  Its claim:
Quote
The second law presents an insurmountable problem to the concept of a natural, mechanistic process: (1) by which the physical universe could have formed spontaneously from nothing, and (2) by which biological life could have arisen and diversified (also spontaneously) from a non-living, inanimate world.  (Both postulates form essential planks in the platform of evolutionary theory in general.)

Frankly, this is a rebuttal of strawmen made up by creationists, not of actual positions held by 'evolutionists' (which, as I noted above, is another strawman).  In response to his first bullet point, evolution has nothing at all to do with how the universe came to be, and certainly makes no claims about the universe coming from nothing.  It is not even a postulate of evolutionary theory in general, as the author claims, or of any branch of science whatsoever - it is instead a misconception by creationists.  In response to his second, evolution also has nothing to do with how life might have arisen on a planet.  This is another common misconception by creationists, who regularly conflate the idea of abiogenesis with evolutionary theory.  Evolution is an explanation for how life diversifies via speciation via the means of natural selection and environmental pressures.

He then spends some time discussing thermodynamics in general, and I will grant that his explanation of the first two laws are basically correct; that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only altered, and that the entropy (energy unavailable to do work) of a closed system cannot decrease.  However, he gets himself into trouble by talking about "evolutionist spin" of thermodynamics.  First off, there's nothing in the second law which forbids complexity or self-organization, especially on a local scale.  All the second law means is that the entropy of the universe cannot decrease and that there is a universal tendency towards increased entropy.  As long as the total entropy of the universe increases or at least stays the same, things that happen in the universe do not violate the second law.

Really, his entire argument is based on the conception that the second law prevents any increase of order or complexity anywhere from happening.  For example, his argument against the spontaneous formation of self-replicating organic molecules depends upon the premise that order cannot increase.  Indeed, it demands that this must be the case because of the second law.  Except that this is not true, because the second law doesn't forbid an increase of order or complexity provided that the total amount of universal entropy stays the same or increases.  That's easily demonstrable simply by using the process of stellar fusion in our own Sun.  The sun generates light in every direction, and the vast majority of it is essentially wasted - it goes into interstellar space where it contributes to the universe's total entropy.  The amount of energy which actually reaches Earth (and thus is available to contribute to increased order and complexity there) is utterly tiny by comparison.

The Sun generates 400 trillion trillion[2] watts per second.  Of that energy, about 120 petawatts[3] actually reaches Earth's surface in a usable form every second.  That's less than a millionth of a percent of the energy the Sun emits.  To give a comparison by analogy, if you say that all of the energy the Sun emits in a second could fit into one cubic meter, the amount that reaches Earth would be around the size of a single atom.  Almost all of the rest of this energy (what doesn't hit the other planets, asteroids, interstellar dust, etc) contributes to universal entropy.  So, yeah.  His argument, that the second law forbids increases in order or complexity, is totally wrong.  The amount of wasted solar energy that basically becomes entropy is enough to outweigh thousands upon thousands of planets that spontaneously create self-replicating molecules.  And our Sun is but one star of billions in this galaxy alone.

Next he talks about open vs closed systems.  For example, the universe is a closed system (energy cannot enter or leave it), whereas Earth is an open one (energy can and does enter and leave it).  Entropy applies to both kinds of systems; the difference is that an open system can absorb and utilize useful energy and emit waste energy.  Because of that latter fact, it is indeed possible to have complexity and order increase in an open system.  The requirements for a local increase in complexity/order are not quite the way he puts them, though.  You do not need a program (or information) in order to direct the growth of complexity; the ordering of energy provides the basis for an increase in complexity (note that I don't deny that a program or information would make this much easier - but it isn't a necessity for the generation of increased complexity the way he claims it is).  What you need is something in the system to use the energy it receives from outside.  Chemical reactions, for example, are often powered by heat or sunlight.  Life itself is powered by chemical reactions; indeed, life would be impossible without chemical reactions.  So even if you don't have life, you can have chemical reactions, and while we haven't discovered what might have caused life to develop from chemical reactions, it is wrong to simply dismiss the idea of chemical reactions being a precursor to life.

He seems to think that it's impossible for any natural mechanism for decreasing entropy to occur.  Yet we see such a mechanism happening every day on Earth - the water cycle.  Water evaporates (via sunlight) from low-altitude reservoirs (oceans, lakes, ponds, etc) and goes into the atmosphere.  Eventually, it comes down in the form of rain, some of which lands on high-altitude areas.  This water then flows downhill through rivers and streams, until it ultimately reaches a reservoir where it can flow no more.  In short, some of the energy coming in from outside causes water to move from a low altitude to a high one, where it becomes available to do work.  Both when it comes back out of the atmosphere as rain, and when it flows downhill as part of a river or stream.  No design, no information, no intelligence, and certainly no program was necessary in order to create this cycle - just the natural process of the water cycle.  In short, yes it is possible for entropy to decrease on a local scale without a design or plan to implement it.

I think I have made my point quite clear here.  The author of this article did not do nearly as good a job 'proving' that thermodynamics contradicted evolutionary theory as he thought he did.  Indeed, he did a fairly poor job of doing so.
 1. which are religious terms
 2. 4*10^26
 3. 1.2*10^17
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 10:02:02 PM
skeptic,

You think that homosexuals being able to marry only offends them? That's like saying during the Civil War only blacks were against slavery because they were slaves.

Idiotic.

And to think that this is just Democrats against Republicans (political ideology) you're deluded. For conservative Republicans, who are all mainly Christian, it's their religion that drives them not their politics.

It's not the religion that drives them though. They just think Obama's healthcare plan is stupid and not well thought out.

What does that have to do with religion?

Quote
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.1 Corinthian s 11:3:

Want more where the Bible states women are inferior to men?

-Nam

How is that inferior to women? Christ is above both man and woman. If the man is not leading with a Christlike example, the woman can leave. Why would she stay with someone who is not being Christlike?
[/quote]

Wrong wrong wrong!

Their religion drives them. It's not Obama. I hear them all the time in the news, read what they personally say, it's their religion.

Stop being deluded.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 10:08:08 PM
Also, on the other skeptic:

The Bible says that women have to obey their husbands (marriage vow), not that they are equals in the marriage but the wife has to do everything her husband tells her.

Women, as stated in the Bible can't hold positions in society above man. They can't speak in church. They can't be educators, they can't wear jewellery, or makeup, or anything that would make her feel good in a societal means.

The bible promotes sexism toward women. A girl has to marry her rapist. Has to bear his child. Has to live in such torment the rest of her life.

The bible, Jesus, Biblegod  hates women.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 16, 2013, 10:14:10 PM
Jaimehlers,

You can also see the level of entropy generated by the food chain at first hand. The use of energy is so inefficient that there is only one level of carnivore. I can't think of any carnivore which only eats other carnivores. Maybe some small creatures?

Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 16, 2013, 10:14:24 PM
Oh,

You said,

Quote
How is that inferior to women? Christ is above both man and woman. If the man is not leading with a Christlike example, the woman can leave. Why would she stay with someone who is not being Christlike?

Not true! A woman is not permitted to divorce her husband, only the husband can divorce from his wife.

Read the damn Bible, you obviously haven't.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: jdawg70 on October 16, 2013, 11:31:22 PM
I used to be lost, but not anymore.

Why does it seem that atheists seem to judge over people's beliefs so much while simultaneously preaching tolerance?

I used to be the same way, but I never knew why I did it.
What do you mean by judge, exactly?  Do you mean in the sense of judging whether a belief is true or not?

Also, how do you know that the bible isn't a trick by a demon trying to lure you into a false religion?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Astreja on October 17, 2013, 12:04:00 AM
Pure silliness. I am outside the Bible. You can trust me.

That's just it, Skeptic:  I, for one, don't trust you.  You would have Me believe that entities who have been role models and inspiration in My life are... demons.  For all I know, you think that I'm a demon too.

In fact, your whole little two-dimensional world is positively infested with demons.  You live in a war zone where things are black or white but never grey.  Worse, you want to erase everything that doesn't look like your god, and exist for eternity in a monochrome realm run by a god who is, in your eyes, the only right thing possible in the universe.

Life is a lot more complex, ambiguous and beautiful than all that, and it's a tragedy that you don't see that.  I doubt very much that you'll be able to convince us that you have something better to offer.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 17, 2013, 12:25:10 AM
Not true! A woman is not permitted to divorce her husband, only the husband can divorce from his wife.

Read the damn Bible, you obviously haven't.

-Nam

Please post the exact passage you are referring to. We will then analyze it in the proper context of the whole chapter.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 17, 2013, 12:28:34 AM
Pure silliness. I am outside the Bible. You can trust me.

That's just it, Skeptic:  I, for one, don't trust you.  You would have Me believe that entities who have been role models and inspiration in My life are... demons.  For all I know, you think that I'm a demon too.

In fact, your whole little two-dimensional world is positively infested with demons.  You live in a war zone where things are black or white but never grey.  Worse, you want to erase everything that doesn't look like your god, and exist for eternity in a monochrome realm run by a god who is, in your eyes, the only right thing possible in the universe.

Life is a lot more complex, ambiguous and beautiful than all that, and it's a tragedy that you don't see that.  I doubt very much that you'll be able to convince us that you have something better to offer.

If the truth is only in black and white, then so be it. No one said the truth had to be pretty. Better to know the ugly truth, than a pretty lie.

Atheism never offered me anything either. The idea that we will just die one day and all this is meaningless? And people wonder why atheism has only attracted a small percentage of the population...

But I will admit that I could be wrong. It's highly doubtful given all the proof I experienced, but maybe I am.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Astreja on October 17, 2013, 12:33:11 AM
Skeptic, there is no meaning to eternal life.  "Eternity" means you never do get to the point of it all, the reason for being there.  It just goes on and on and on...

I saw this 45 years ago in a vision, when I was 11 years old.

It took Me a while longer to realize that meaning exists only in the present.  It's in the doing, in the experiencing.  You can't rent it from a god whom you think knows your meaning better than you.  You can only live it.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 17, 2013, 12:35:23 AM
What do you mean by judge, exactly?  Do you mean in the sense of judging whether a belief is true or not?

Mocking God
Calling us stupid and mentally ill
Calling us dangerous
Calling our beliefs a joke, fairy tale, superstition

very offensive stuff.

Also, how do you know that the bible isn't a trick by a demon trying to lure you into a false religion?

Where did demons come from if not from Yahweh?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 17, 2013, 12:38:29 AM
Skeptic, there is no meaning to eternal life.  "Eternity" means you never do get to the point of it all, the reason for being there.  It just goes on and on and on...

I saw this 45 years ago in a vision, when I was 11 years old.

It took Me a while longer to realize that meaning exists only in the present.  It's in the doing, in the experiencing.
  You can't rent it from a god whom you think knows your meaning better than you.  You can only live it.

let's analyze the bold for a minute.

if meaning only exists in the present, why bother punishing a murderer? The murder only had meaning in the present. After it was completed, the meaning is gone.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Astreja on October 17, 2013, 12:45:55 AM
if meaning only exists in the present, why bother punishing a murderer? The murder only had meaning in the present. After it was completed, the meaning is gone.

Actually, it isn't.  The act of committing a murder is a relatively brief thing, but we actually punish the murderer for the consequences of the act -- Consequences that persist, moment after moment, indefinitely.  It alters the timeline of the world by removing a person who could have done any number of things in that world:  Invented something, fought heroically in a war, given birth to the first of many new generations.  People lose a partner, a friend, a co-worker, a father, a mother, a child.  Their grief carries on, their lives affected for the worse.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 17, 2013, 01:09:25 AM
Not true! A woman is not permitted to divorce her husband, only the husband can divorce from his wife.

Read the damn Bible, you obviously haven't.

-Nam

Please post the exact passage you are referring to. We will then analyze it in the proper context of the whole chapter.

No. Not because it isn't there but because you're just going to make excuses for it. That's all you do. That and call us "illiterate", and frankly you call me or anyone else here that again, I'm going to let loose on you. I don't have a "Watched" because I'm a nice guy. I have it there because I'm the direct opposite.

What I will do, however, is give you the chapter/verse and you can actually crack open your precious book that you obviously have never read (because if you had, you'd know that verse).

1 Corinthians 7:39.

By the by, when divorce is mentioned in the Bible, it is always about the husband divorcing the wife, not the other way around.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Fiji on October 17, 2013, 01:16:36 AM
Also, how do you know that the bible isn't a trick by a demon trying to lure you into a false religion?

Where did demons come from if not from Yahweh?

Allah, of course, haven't you read the Quran?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Jonny-UK on October 17, 2013, 01:35:16 AM

Sorry if this is a bit late (it was midnight here and I needed some sleep,I'm up at 5 in the mornings)
My friend was reading the Gospel of Matthew and said he saw a flaming cross in front of him. This confirmed the Gospel for him. He was never into it until that day. now, he can't stop talking about it.

Things like that are why you can't convince me that it's false.
Again this only happened after reading the bible and not before.
Remember I do not read religious books, so my point is that I have never seen anything to make me think "thats a sign from god and therefor I must go and read this or that religious book".
Could your friend have been very tired and simply had a quite realistic dream ?
Any evidence, any burn marks left by the flaming cross?
I guess he was alone and not ,for example, reading in the park where there could be other witnesses.
In fact, to keep it simple, are there any signs from god(s) anywhere in the world that I could go and have a look at?
Anything at all anywhere.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 17, 2013, 02:00:03 AM
Atheism never offered me anything either. The idea that we will just die one day and all this is meaningless? And people wonder why atheism has only attracted a small percentage of the population...

If all you look for in life is the best "offer", and not the absolute truth that is backed up, you are still being delusional, and in my opinion a rather immoral person.

Why not be Islamic and get 72 virgins?

Why not join Hinduism and be reincarnated?

Why not believe in the flying spaghetti monster and get booze and hookers?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Jonny-UK on October 17, 2013, 02:03:08 AM
Atheism never offered me anything either.
Atheism isn't about offering anything, it is simply a lack of belief as you should well know claiming to be a former one.
Religions claim to offer things however I have yet to see anything in the world that would give the smallest amount of credibility to this.
Please feel free to show us all something........not a quote from a book.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Fiji on October 17, 2013, 02:15:29 AM
Atheism never offered me anything either. The idea that we will just die one day and all this is meaningless? And people wonder why atheism has only attracted a small percentage of the population...

If all you look for in life is the best "offer", and not the absolute truth that is backed up, you are still being delusional, and in my opinion a rather immoral person.

Why not be Islamic and get 72 virgins?

Why not join Hinduism and be reincarnated?

Why not believe in the flying spaghetti monster and get booze and hookers?

Good call A², and I would further add, if he's just in christianity for the end-of-life bonus package and his god is all knowing ... wouldn't his god get just a little bit annoyed that Skeptic is worshiping the reward in addition to god.

As for the bolded part, a) that only applies to those who died in holy wars and b) that's not in the Quran, so not all Muslims accept that.
The Quran does say that everyone who goes to heaven will get a perfect wife[1] though, so there's that.
 1. not spouse, mind you, it expressly says 'wife' ... so I guess all Muslimas who go to heaven ... all become ... lesbian ...  :? ... ?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 17, 2013, 02:19:24 AM
As for the bolded part, a) that only applies to those who died in holy wars and b) that's not in the Quran, so not all Muslims accept that.

Yeah...i know.
Its more of a stereotype i guess, but i mean, its about the offer, not the truth.

Therefore believing that you get 72 virgins will get you them after death.

Flawless logic...for theists...
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Anfauglir on October 17, 2013, 03:00:49 AM
The gift from Jesus is eternal life though Him. Salvation is not earned, it is given to us as a gift. We just have to accept it. If we do not accept Jesus' free gift, then God will not force us to accept it. Just like if you gave someone a free gift and they took it out of your hands and threw it in a dumpster and walked away.

You still have to ACCEPT the gift. If you throw it away, that is on you. I can only tell people my viewpoint. I can not force them to accept my viewpoint.

Cool.  Thanks Jesus, I accept Eternal Life.  Excellent!  The GIFT has been accepted, so I'll see you in heaven 54768.

Or are there more strings attached to this "gift"?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Jonny-UK on October 17, 2013, 03:12:13 AM
Eternal life surrounded by souls telling me "I told you it was true"
Can you change your mind afterwards, is there an exit door?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Anfauglir on October 17, 2013, 03:19:26 AM
Atheism never offered me anything either. The idea that we will just die one day and all this is meaningless? And people wonder why atheism has only attracted a small percentage of the population...

If all you look for in life is the best "offer", and not the absolute truth that is backed up, you are still being delusional, and in my opinion a rather immoral person.

Why not be Islamic and get 72 virgins?

Why not join Hinduism and be reincarnated?

Why not believe in the flying spaghetti monster and get booze and hookers?

I've always used something similar when hit with Pascal's wager or similar....

The Muslim heaven is more appealing to me than any other.  So that's the best "good" bet of all those available.

You then need to look at the consequences of a "wrong" choice.  Allah seems to be a no-return, no excuses kinda guy.  So picking against him and finding him real is bad news.  On the other hand, picking against Jesus and finding HIM real seems to offer a little wiggle room - I've been offered last chances just after death by some Christians, and he's a forgiving loving kinda guy, so choosing against Jesus is NOT a guaranteed bad outcome.

The clever money therefore is on Islam.  Best upside if you get it right, and worst consequences if you bet against it and it turns out to be right.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Fiji on October 17, 2013, 03:20:01 AM
Therefore believing that you get 72 virgins will get you them after death.

Flawless logic...for theists...

Yeah, 72 virgins ... but no dick to diddle them with ...  :?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 17, 2013, 03:36:34 AM
Yeah, 72 virgins ... but no dick to diddle them with ...  :?

Strap-ons?
Gah...
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Jonny-UK on October 17, 2013, 04:36:11 AM
It' not hypocritical. It's all out there plain as day for anyone to read. It's not just me who has this knowledge:
http://biblelight.net/verita.htm
Again though..........anything outside the book(s)

That is outside the Bible! ...
Baal was a false god.
Baal had a symbol used for him.
Catholics use the symbol for Baal, a false god.
But, Catholics claim to follow Jesus.
So, why use a false satanic symbol?


That was kind of his point, I think.  Earlier you said that anything outside the Bible should not be trusted.  Yet here you are citing something outside the Bible.

If you don't even believe yourself, then why should anyone else believe you?
I think i Should have put a question mark after "anything outside the book(s)"
He may have been quoting from things outside the bible but it is still referencing points that come from other stories written by people in one form or another.
There is still nothing here to show that any of these god stories aren't 100% man made.
-Sorry to jump back a bit, I was having a re-read to catch up again-
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: jaimehlers on October 17, 2013, 08:36:27 AM
Actually, it isn't.  The act of committing a murder is a relatively brief thing, but we actually punish the murderer for the consequences of the act -- Consequences that persist, moment after moment, indefinitely.  It alters the timeline of the world by removing a person who could have done any number of things in that world:  Invented something, fought heroically in a war, given birth to the first of many new generations.  People lose a partner, a friend, a co-worker, a father, a mother, a child.  Their grief carries on, their lives affected for the worse.
This is one of the reasons death is so feared.  It isn't because a person should be scared of the fact of their own death (though the means of death is another story), it's because a person dying causes other people to feel pain.  It can be very painful for people who continue living, and it keeps on being painful for a long time, until time and distance can soothe it.  A person can die from that pain, or kill because of it.

That's why we punish murderers.  It isn't just because of the act of murder, though that would be plenty bad on its own, it's because they also wounded everyone who cares at all about the person who was killed.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 17, 2013, 10:31:55 AM
Atheism never offered me anything either. The idea that we will just die one day and all this is meaningless? And people wonder why atheism has only attracted a small percentage of the population...

Is this some sort of a popularity contest for you? Again, atheism is not a belief (just like being a non-astrologer, or non-Santa-Claus-believer is not a belief). So it doesn't need to "attract" anyone. The default position on any given subject is to withhold judgment (admit ignorance) until sufficient evidence and sound reasoning have been presented. So far, you haven't presented any evidence or sound reasoning, b/c your reasons are all irrational. So we should stay lacking belief in your claims (just like we should stay lacking belief in Islam or Mormonism).
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Jag on October 17, 2013, 11:38:54 AM
If the truth is only in black and white, then so be it. No one said the truth had to be pretty. Better to know the ugly truth, than a pretty lie.
Agreed, albeit ironically.
Quote
Atheism never offered me anything either.
Does not compute. How could atheism "offer you" something? It just means you don't believe in god(s) - does not believing in fairies "offer you" something?
Quote
The idea that we will just die one day
....but we will.
Quote
and all this is meaningless?
Who said that? Other than you, of course.
Quote
And people wonder why atheism has only attracted a small percentage of the population...
Who are these "people" you are referring to in that sentence? Is there a recruiting agency out there that I don't know about? Did a bunch of atheists form a club or something?
Quote
But I will admit that I could be wrong. It's highly doubtful given all the proof I experienced, but maybe I am.
The qualifier makes you sound somewhat insincere.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: hickdive on October 17, 2013, 02:59:00 PM
Yeah, 72 virgins ... but no dick to diddle them with ...  :?

You won't need one, here's your first two virgins now...

(http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001880001/1159385497_attachment_xlarge.jpeg)
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: jdawg70 on October 17, 2013, 03:51:56 PM
Mocking God
Well I don't believe that entity actually exists, so it's not so much mocking god as it is mocking the idea of god.
Quote
Calling us stupid and mentally ill
If there is no other context to support such labels, then yes, that would be considered judgmental against that person.
Quote
Calling us dangerous
I imagine dangerous people do not like being called dangerous.

Let me be clear: you are willing to absconce any personal responsibility for ethical decisions based upon the whims of an objectively unverifiable willful entity.  Remember the whole 'I'd kill my kid if god told me to' bulls**t?  THAT MAKES YOU A MONSTER.  YOU WOULD KILL YOUR OWN KID TO SAVE YOUR OWN A$$ OR PLACATE THE WHIMS OF SOME OTHER ENTITY.

Do you think you're dangerous?  Probably not.  Should everyone else think you're dangerous?  ABSOLUTELY.
Quote
Calling our beliefs a joke, fairy tale, superstition
If your belief is not a joke, fairy tale, or superstition, then by all means present it in such a way so that it doesn't look like a joke, fairy tale, or superstition.
Quote
Where did demons come from if not from Yahweh?
From the actual true god that you are failing to worship, because the demon of the Catholic Church has put together a bible full of bulls**t to trick you into thinking that you're following the true path?

A reminder you of your own words:
Quote
Satan masquerades as an angel of light. He'll be very nice to you if you're worshiping him. He will make you think you are worshiping God. He will give you things and you will think it's God giving them to you. He'll be your best pal, your best buddy....until the End Times when he will just laugh at you.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: neopagan on October 17, 2013, 04:45:04 PM
Hey, Skep....
can you run over to my house this weekend and drive off some demon-deceived-Catholics who also happen to be my in-laws?  You cannot come in the house (cuz you is scary), but I'll send them out on the front lawn, ok?  Have at 'em, I can smell the sulfur!
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 17, 2013, 06:09:06 PM
Let me be clear: you are willing to absconce any personal responsibility for ethical decisions based upon the whims of an objectively unverifiable willful entity.  Remember the whole 'I'd kill my kid if god told me to' bulls**t?  THAT MAKES YOU A MONSTER.  YOU WOULD KILL YOUR OWN KID TO SAVE YOUR OWN A$$ OR PLACATE THE WHIMS OF SOME OTHER ENTITY.

Do you think you're dangerous?  Probably not.  Should everyone else think you're dangerous?  ABSOLUTELY.

[I will now be the stand-in apologist - taking on the old mind I had 10 years ago, momentarily]

"Oh but you see, we would never kill anyone b/c we know God doesn't command those things anymore. So we would know they contradict scripture and God's plan. See, you have to look at things 'in context'"
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Prejah on October 17, 2013, 07:00:07 PM
Not true! A woman is not permitted to divorce her husband, only the husband can divorce from his wife.

Read the damn Bible, you obviously haven't.

-Nam

Please post the exact passage you are referring to. We will then analyze it in the proper context of the whole chapter.

No. Not because it isn't there but because you're just going to make excuses for it. That's all you do. That and call us "illiterate", and frankly you call me or anyone else here that again, I'm going to let loose on you. I don't have a "Watched" because I'm a nice guy. I have it there because I'm the direct opposite.

What I will do, however, is give you the chapter/verse and you can actually crack open your precious book that you obviously have never read (because if you had, you'd know that verse).

1 Corinthians 7:39.

By the by, when divorce is mentioned in the Bible, it is always about the husband divorcing the wife, not the other way around.

-Nam

What bible version are you reading where passage 7-39 deals with divorce. Mine does not (NIV) Even the KJ does not use those words in that verse. Perhaps you can clarify further? Excuses are not on the forefront, but we seem to be talking about two different verses. In fact earlier in that particular chapter it mentions divorce and indeed says a woman can divorce a man. Not sure where you are getting the other things from-which is why I inquired about what particular bible you are reading from (or most likely not reading)

Just for clarity, every Christian does not have the bible memorized verbatim. I'm sure skeptic guessed you were talking about 1 Corinthians, but he was asking for clarity, as am I.

Cheers
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 17, 2013, 07:01:24 PM
Hey, Skep....
can you run over to my house this weekend and drive off some demon-deceived-Catholics who also happen to be my in-laws?  You cannot come in the house (cuz you is scary), but I'll send them out on the front lawn, ok?  Have at 'em, I can smell the sulfur!

lol I am not scared of Catholics. I said I have no fear.

What I would tell them is that "the leaders of your church are worshiping Satan and tricking you into thinking it's Jesus. Look up the satanic symbols all over the Vatican and priest's garments. It's best to get out and leave the false doctrine."

I have nothing against the followers of the religions. Like I said, I can only be the messenger.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 17, 2013, 07:05:21 PM
I have nothing against the followers of the religions. Like I said, I can only be the messenger.

Buuuuuuuuuuuut, the messenger of a false god?

Or the "One true Godtm"?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 17, 2013, 07:12:26 PM
I imagine dangerous people do not like being called dangerous.

Let me be clear: you are willing to absconce any personal responsibility for ethical decisions based upon the whims of an objectively unverifiable willful entity.  Remember the whole 'I'd kill my kid if god told me to' bulls**t?  THAT MAKES YOU A MONSTER.  YOU WOULD KILL YOUR OWN KID TO SAVE YOUR OWN A$$ OR PLACATE THE WHIMS OF SOME OTHER ENTITY.



OK, I am seeing that we seem to have a bit of a misunderstanding. No problem with misunderstandings. I can clarify why you are having a misunderstanding.

The child is not my child. The child is God's child. If God tells me to give give Him one of his children, then I will. I will never kill one of God's children on my own. No way.

We all deserve forgiveness. I love murderers in a spiritual sense. "Hate the sin, love the sinner" is the common phrase. I hate what they are doing, but I love them anyway. Hopefully, they can become right with the Lord before they die. No one is beyond redemption.

I do not see how this type of pure love can be seen as dangerous. Once you get the materialistic thinking out of the way and focus on the spiritual, it becomes easier to see it form our point of view.

I hope this helps to clear up the misunderstanding.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 17, 2013, 07:32:58 PM
Atheism never offered me anything either.
Atheism isn't about offering anything, it is simply a lack of belief as you should well know claiming to be a former one.
Religions claim to offer things however I have yet to see anything in the world that would give the smallest amount of credibility to this.
Please feel free to show us all something........not a quote from a book.

Fair enough. it was the lack of belief that didn't offer me anything then. It was depressing. Much happier now as a believer. It's like my eyes were opened.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 17, 2013, 07:36:40 PM
I have nothing against the followers of the religions. Like I said, I can only be the messenger.

Buuuuuuuuuuuut, the messenger of a false god?

Or the "One true Godtm"?

Yahweh has shown His power over the false gods.
Nobody has ever shown power over Yahweh. The false demons that tried, failed.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 17, 2013, 07:56:46 PM
Buuuuuuuuuuuut, the messenger of a false god?

Or the "One true Godtm"?

I will let Jesus answer your question:

Matthew 12:
22 Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23 All the people were astonished and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”

25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

As you can see, it is not possible that God is a false god. Jesus squashed this myth 2,000 years ago.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Graybeard on October 17, 2013, 08:12:15 PM
[Yahweh has shown His power over the false gods.
Nobody has ever shown power over Yahweh. The false demons that tried, failed.
I am disappointed by your argument.

The main dissatisfaction is that, for the above to be true, (i) the Bible needs to be inerrant. It isn't, we know it isn't. (ii) You cannot presuppose that there are gods.

But that aside, let us look at the defeat of the god called Yahweh by the god called Chemosh:

1Ki:11:33: Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and to keep my statutes and my judgments, as did David his father.

Human Sacrifice The King of Moab.
2Ki:3:25: And they beat down the cities, and on every good piece of land cast every man his stone, and filled it; and they stopped all the wells of water, and felled all the good trees: only in Kir-haraseth left they the stones thereof; howbeit the slingers went about it, and smote it.
2Ki:3:26: And when the king of Moab saw that the battle was too sore for him, he took with him seven hundred men that drew swords, to break through even unto the king of Edom: but they could not.
2Ki:3:27: Then he took his eldest son that should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall.  And there was great indignation against Israel: and they departed from him, and returned to their own land.

This event is also recorded on the [wiki]Mesha Stele[/wiki]

It records the campaign that took place between 848 and 841 BC, the only time when Joram and Jehoshaphat were both on the throne. Although the Israelite campaign met with some success, it appears that Moab retained its independence. This is confirmed by the Mesha Inscription.

The point is that here, a human sacrifice was made to Chemosh and the armies of Israel, commanded by God, retreated. At least that is the version that the Israelites would like you to believe.

But now you need to go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesha_Stele#Text and read what a powerful god Chemosh is and how the possible human sacrifice was not done in the face of the Israelites if it were done at all.

I will not go into the instances of human sacrifice to God in the Bible but, this was obviously "powerful magic" to the Israelites that truly worried them[1], and thus we have, as the final act of a desperate god, the folk tale of the crucifixion - a god sacrificing his son.

However, this imaginary crucifixion, when looked at logically, can result in only two conclusions:

Jesus was God as well and therefore could not die.
Jesus was not god but some wandering zealot who ended up dead.

As you won't like the second, I will remind you that gods cannot die and therefore there was no sacrifice.
 1. Today we see it in its proper light as the work of a criminal lunatic
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 17, 2013, 08:17:01 PM
Not true! A woman is not permitted to divorce her husband, only the husband can divorce from his wife.

Read the damn Bible, you obviously haven't.

-Nam

Please post the exact passage you are referring to. We will then analyze it in the proper context of the whole chapter.

No. Not because it isn't there but because you're just going to make excuses for it. That's all you do. That and call us "illiterate", and frankly you call me or anyone else here that again, I'm going to let loose on you. I don't have a "Watched" because I'm a nice guy. I have it there because I'm the direct opposite.

What I will do, however, is give you the chapter/verse and you can actually crack open your precious book that you obviously have never read (because if you had, you'd know that verse).

1 Corinthians 7:39.

By the by, when divorce is mentioned in the Bible, it is always about the husband divorcing the wife, not the other way around.

-Nam

What bible version are you reading where passage 7-39 deals with divorce. Mine does not (NIV) Even the KJ does not use those words in that verse. Perhaps you can clarify further? Excuses are not on the forefront, but we seem to be talking about two different verses. In fact earlier in that particular chapter it mentions divorce and indeed says a woman can divorce a man. Not sure where you are getting the other things from-which is why I inquired about what particular bible you are reading from (or most likely not reading)

Just for clarity, every Christian does not have the bible memorized verbatim. I'm sure skeptic guessed you were talking about 1 Corinthians, but he was asking for clarity, as am I.

Cheers

Chapter 7 talks about the do's and don'ts of marriage. What men can do, and what women can't. It states that a man can divorce a woman (never mentions a wife can divorce her husband), and that verse states that even in divorce she belongs to him. So, he can remarry but she can't or she will become and adulterer. She can only remarry if her husband (ex or otherwise) dies.

Once she marries him she is, basically, his property for life, even in divorce. The whole chapter is about marriage and divorce how you think it is not is baffling.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 17, 2013, 08:21:47 PM
[Yahweh has shown His power over the false gods.
Nobody has ever shown power over Yahweh. The false demons that tried, failed.
I am disappointed by your argument.

The main dissatisfaction is that, for the above to be true, (i) the Bible needs to be inerrant. It isn't, we know it isn't. (ii) You cannot presuppose that there are gods.

But that aside, let us look at the defeat of the god called Yahweh by the god called Chemosh:

1Ki:11:33: Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and to keep my statutes and my judgments, as did David his father.

Human Sacrifice The King of Moab.
2Ki:3:25: And they beat down the cities, and on every good piece of land cast every man his stone, and filled it; and they stopped all the wells of water, and felled all the good trees: only in Kir-haraseth left they the stones thereof; howbeit the slingers went about it, and smote it.
2Ki:3:26: And when the king of Moab saw that the battle was too sore for him, he took with him seven hundred men that drew swords, to break through even unto the king of Edom: but they could not.
2Ki:3:27: Then he took his eldest son that should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall.  And there was great indignation against Israel: and they departed from him, and returned to their own land.

This event is also recorded on the [wiki]Mesha Stele[/wiki]

It records the campaign that took place between 848 and 841 BC, the only time when Joram and Jehoshaphat were both on the throne. Although the Israelite campaign met with some success, it appears that Moab retained its independence. This is confirmed by the Mesha Inscription.

The point is that here, a human sacrifice was made to Chemosh and the armies of Israel, commanded by God, retreated. At least that is the version that the Israelites would like you to believe.

But now you need to go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesha_Stele#Text and read what a powerful god Chemosh is and how the possible human sacrifice was not done in the face of the Israelites if it were done at all.

I will not go into the instances of human sacrifice to God in the Bible but, this was obviously "powerful magic" to the Israelites that truly worried them[1], and thus we have, as the final act of a desperate god, the folk tale of the crucifixion - a god sacrificing his son.

However, this imaginary crucifixion, when looked at logically, can result in only two conclusions:

Jesus was God as well and therefore could not die.
Jesus was not god but some wandering zealot who ended up dead.

As you won't like the second, I will remind you that gods cannot die and therefore there was no sacrifice.
 1. Today we see it in its proper light as the work of a criminal lunatic

I am not following the power this god showed over Yahweh.
Can you explain your question/point? I'm not seeing it.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Zankuu on October 17, 2013, 08:24:40 PM
skeptic54768, this might end up being a lengthy reply but there’s just so much I disagree with you on. I hope you find this reply reasonable.

1. ON ANIMAL SACRIFICE
“With that said, I would like to say that Jesus' sacrifice was important because He willingly did it. That is the ultimate act of love.” - skeptic54768

If Jesus is God (John 1:1-1-14), the creator of all things, and God is all knowing (Isaiah 46:9) then the entire plan is asinine, sacrifice and all. Seriously, Jesus’ sacrifice means nothing if the sacrifice is to and for himself.

If God has the attributes of being all powerful, all knowing, and has the ability to foresee the future, are you telling me that the best he could come up with is a plan which involves designing purposely flawed creations (man, woman, and the snake), temporarily leaving and setting up the perfect opportunity for man to be tricked, eventually drowning his flawed creations and regretting it, then eventually sacrificing himself to himself so his creations can be spared the eternal torture? It just doesn’t make any sense. Why not skip the whole dramatic flood event and get straight to sacrificing himself? Or better yet, why not just forgive without the sacrifice?

“In the Old Testament, blood of an innocent lamb was used on the door's of the Hebrews. This represented how an innocent animal must be sacrificed to atone for sins.” - skeptic54768

Animal sacrifice…I don’t even know where to start. I guess this is what I want to know first- how does slitting an animal’s carotid artery and having its blood spill out translate over to atonement? Really, please explain the mechanism behind the forgiveness. How does it work? Why does an innocent animal have to be involved? Saying that something clean is needed in order to be used to redeem the dirty doesn’t explain anything. That’s just a subjective rule of forgiveness a god created. What is Yahweh’s obsession with innocent blood? And he isn’t the only god of antiquity that’s obsessed with blood sacrifice:

So tell me something, 54768, how is your god any different when it comes to animal bloodshed? You claim that these other gods were just demons in disguise, but honestly, I can’t tell your god Yahweh apart from Kisin, El, Thor, Marduk, Jupiter, Zeus, or Tezcatlipoca. To bring it full circle, you said that Jesus’ sacrifice to himself for humanity’s sake was the ultimate act of love. An ultimate act of love would not require a sacrifice in the first place. If you want to forgive someone then you just forgive that person with no strings attached. Let’s say I wronged you, 54768, and you decided to lovingly forgive me. What would be more loving and forgiving: 1) simply forgiving me or 2) having me slit the neck of the nearest pigeon and splash its blood on a park bench, or 3) crucifying 54768 Jr. on my behalf?

Any sane person (or deity) would go with #1.

The sacrificial lamb plan is not a plan I would expect from an intelligent moral agent. I sincerely mean that.

2. ON SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCES
“I had a spiritual experience with God. […] Many people around the world always claim to spiritually experience God […]” - skeptic54768

Spiritual experiences are a dime a dozen and aren’t convincing. The problem is people say they have spiritual experiences with gods other than yours, and they use these experiences to claim their god is real, just like you do. Muslims saw angels, Hindus saw and became one with Brahman through meditation, et cetera et cetera et cetera- there are millions of these accounts and they aren’t any more or less convincing than Christian experiences.

Your friend saw a flaming cross in front of his face while he read the Bible? So what? There are countless Muslim testimonies on the internet with nearly identical stories: they were reading the Koran and had a spiritual experience while reading it (saw the word Allah spelt out, felt Allah’s warm glow, saw the face of Muhammad). You wouldn’t take any of that as proof the Koran is true, so why would you take your friend’s story as evidence the Bible is true? Your societal bias is showing.

3. ON YAHWEH’S IMMORALITY
“The firstborn were killed by God because Pharaoh killed the firstborn males of the Hebrews. What should God have done about that?” - skeptic54768

How about not murder the Egyptian firstborns? I would have expected a benevolent being with ultimate intelligence to have educated the Pharaoh. If you were God what would you have done? If you tell me you also would have started slaughtered innocent people then you need to check yourself in to a hospital, because you’re a sociopath. And you may very well say “Sure I would!” in order to make excuses for Yahweh, but I doubt you would order the mutilation of children like he does, or for that matter, carry it out like Moses and his army does in the book.

You also have to deal with the problem that this was all God’s plan from the start. He designed the Pharaoh in such a way that he would kill the Hebrew’s firstborn males. He knew he was going to get his own rocks off getting revenge by killing innocent Egyptians. Why? Because he planned it “In the Beginning…” If God didn’t want to slaughter children then he simply wouldn’t slaughter children. That’s sort of the perk of being a god, you get to make the rules.

“Even today imagine if someone witnessed their own baby murdered right in front of them by someone. I can't even imagine what they would do in retaliation.” - skeptic54768

If my child was murdered in front of me the last thing I would do is grab a kitchen knife and murder someone else’s child. The length you’re going to in order to justify Yahweh murdering innocent children is impressive. You’re so afraid of questioning Yahweh you’re willing to create loopholes so he gets a free pass on things you find deplorable.

But I have been the Lord your God ever since you came out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me. […] The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open. –Hosea 13:4-16

So Yahweh sends an army to murder children and gut pregnant women. But God knows best right? Those unborn children were God’s anyway. He can spill as many fetuses and placentas in the dirt as often as he wants, because Yahweh's got that ultimate love, right? That’s quite a loophole for barbarism.

4. ON BELIEFS AND ATHEISM
Here are the reasons you’ve presented for your past atheism:
And here are the reasons you presented for your conversion to Christianity:

You haven’t elaborated on why you were an atheist, but from what you’ve typed you had poor reasons for being an atheist then, and you have poor reasons for being a Christian now. I believe there have been many atheist to Christian conversions. But the reason why many atheists don’t believe them is because their reasons for being an atheist are bad reasons, and not based on rational and critical thought. We always hear “I was big into drugs and I just wanted to sin” or “I was angry with God” and these are truly poor reasons to not believe in the supernatural. Now if you had said, “One reason I was an atheist was due to the fact that Yahweh existed as a pagan Canaanite god prior to being the god of Israel,” then that would have been a good reason for nonbelief in Yahweh. Do you see my concern about your reasons for your past disbelief?

“Plenty of people think they are worshiping God, but they are following a false religion. Since I am not following a false religion, I am not one of those people that the verse is speaking about.” –skeptic54768

You haven’t explained how you know you aren’t following a false religion. If the holy book of the religion you follow says it isn’t a false religion, you’re using circular reasoning for support. For example:

Believer: "I’m not following a false religion."
Nonbeliever: "How do you know?"
Believer: "Because the Bible says so."
Nonbeliever: "Why should I believe the Bible?"
Believer: "Because the Bible says all other religions are false. Therefore, I’m not following a false religion.”

See why circular reasoning is considered illogical? Plus, this sort of argument can be used to support any religion.

5. ON PROPHECIES
“I know the Bible is true because of all the prophecies coming true.” - skeptic54768

Biblical prophecy isn’t the least bit convincing. Since you mentioned the prophecy involving the destruction of the Holy Temple, I’ll use that as an example. Here's Jesus' prediction in Mark 13:1-4:

As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!” “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”

Let's ask ourselves the following:

When did the Siege of Jerusalem take place? 70CE.
When was the Gospel of Mark written? No earlier than 70CE.

Case closed.

So we have an unknown author living during the Roman-Jewish War (which involved the destruction of the Holy Temple) that wrote about a man that supposedly predicted the destruction of the Holy Temple. Let that sink in for a minute, then you'll understand why this Biblical prophecy isn’t convincing to nonbelievers and skeptics. But! But the passage is written in present tense! If the temple was already destroyed, why would the author of Mark write it in such a way!? Isn’t it obvious, skeptic54768? The author of Mark is a Christian. He's hardly unbiased and he’s writing a story about Jesus 70-80 years after Jesus’ death. One can conclude that the author wrote it this way to ensure that Jesus’ "prediction" came true.
 
6. ON WOMEN AND SLAVERY
“The Bible says that everyone is equal. This is in contrast with other faiths who think some people are superior, like Islam. Women are treated terribly in Islam, but given free choices in Christianity.” - skeptic54768

When Christians say things like this it makes me wonder if they’ve actually read their own Bible, or studied Christianity’s past. Or know anything about the history of women’s rights. You do realize it’s a relatively new development (18-19th century), right? And here a sample of Biblical equality:

Old Testament:
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.  –Deut. 22:28-29

New Testament:
Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. -1 Cor. 14:34–35

Those are just off the top of my head. There are many more verses that go into detail about how you should chop off the hand of a woman that attempts to stop a fight between two men, how women are treated like property and spoils of war, and how a rapist can force a rape victim to marry him. Much of this is from God’s holy mouth. So I really don’t care what Jesus supposedly said about woman and equality, because it only makes God seem like a flip-flopper on the issue, and Christians certainly didn’t interpret the Bible the way you are for thousands of years. Isn’t it funny that when the moral values in a society change that God’s values suddenly change? SPAG at it's finest.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 17, 2013, 08:24:43 PM
Skeptic,

Graybeard is being elegant in saying: READ THE DAMN BIBLE FOR ONCE!

Okay, maybe not. But I am.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 17, 2013, 08:51:38 PM
Animal sacrifice…I don’t even know where to start. I guess this is what I want to know first- how does slitting an animal’s carotid artery and having its blood spill out translate over to atonement? Really, please explain the mechanism behind the forgiveness. How does it work? Why does an innocent animal have to be involved? Saying that something clean is needed in order to be used to redeem the dirty doesn’t explain anything. That’s just a subjective rule of forgiveness a god created. What is Yahweh’s obsession with innocent blood? And he isn’t the only god of antiquity that’s obsessed with blood sacrifice:
  • Kisin, the Mayan god of death required blood sacrifices.
  • Tezcatlipoca, an Aztec god required sacrifices for atonement.
  • Jupiter, a Roman god, was calmed by the spilling of chicken and cow blood.
  • The Sumerian gods accepted animal sacrifice in order to keep the peace.
  • Greek gods were fans of the entrails, lard, and spices.
  • Germanic gods were appeased by animal sacrifices.
  • The list goes on and on...

So tell me something, 54768, how is your god any different when it comes to animal bloodshed? You claim that these other gods were just demons in disguise, but honestly, I can’t tell your god Yahweh apart from Kisin, El, Thor, Marduk, Jupiter, Zeus, or Tezcatlipoca. To bring it full circle, you said that Jesus’ sacrifice to himself for humanity’s sake was the ultimate act of love. An ultimate act of love would not require a sacrifice in the first place. If you want to forgive someone then you just forgive that person with no strings attached. Let’s say I wronged you, 54768, and you decided to lovingly forgive me. What would be more loving and forgiving: 1) simply forgiving me or 2) having me slit the neck of the nearest pigeon and splash its blood on a park bench, or 3) crucifying 54768 Jr. on my behalf?

Any sane person (or deity) would go with #1.

The sacrificial lamb plan is not a plan I would expect from an intelligent moral agent. I sincerely mean that.

2. ON SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCES
“I had a spiritual experience with God. […] Many people around the world always claim to spiritually experience God […]” - skeptic54768

Spiritual experiences are a dime a dozen and aren’t convincing. The problem is people say they have spiritual experiences with gods other than yours, and they use these experiences to claim their god is real, just like you do. Muslims saw angels, Hindus saw and became one with Brahman through meditation, et cetera et cetera et cetera- there are millions of these accounts and they aren’t any more or less convincing than Christian experiences.

Your friend saw a flaming cross in front of his face while he read the Bible? So what? There are countless Muslim testimonies on the internet with nearly identical stories: they were reading the Koran and had a spiritual experience while reading it (saw the word Allah spelt out, felt Allah’s warm glow, saw the face of Muhammad). You wouldn’t take any of that as proof the Koran is true, so why would you take your friend’s story as evidence the Bible is true? Your societal bias is showing.

3. ON YAHWEH’S IMMORALITY
“The firstborn were killed by God because Pharaoh killed the firstborn males of the Hebrews. What should God have done about that?” - skeptic54768

How about not murder the Egyptian firstborns? I would have expected a benevolent being with ultimate intelligence to have educated the Pharaoh. If you were God what would you have done? If you tell me you also would have started slaughtered innocent people then you need to check yourself in to a hospital, because you’re a sociopath. And you may very well say “Sure I would!” in order to make excuses for Yahweh, but I doubt you would order the mutilation of children like he does, or for that matter, carry it out like Moses and his army does in the book.

You also have to deal with the problem that this was all God’s plan from the start. He designed the Pharaoh in such a way that he would kill the Hebrew’s firstborn males. He knew he was going to get his own rocks off getting revenge by killing innocent Egyptians. Why? Because he planned it “In the Beginning…” If God didn’t want to slaughter children then he simply wouldn’t slaughter children. That’s sort of the perk of being a god, you get to make the rules.

“Even today imagine if someone witnessed their own baby murdered right in front of them by someone. I can't even imagine what they would do in retaliation.” - skeptic54768

If my child was murdered in front of me the last thing I would do is grab a kitchen knife and murder someone else’s child. The length you’re going to in order to justify Yahweh murdering innocent children is impressive. You’re so afraid of questioning Yahweh you’re willing to create loopholes so he gets a free pass on things you find deplorable.

But I have been the Lord your God ever since you came out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me. […] The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open. –Hosea 13:4-16

So Yahweh sends an army to murder children and gut pregnant women. But God knows best right? Those unborn children were God’s anyway. He can spill as many fetuses and placentas in the dirt as often as he wants, because Yahweh's got that ultimate love, right? That’s quite a loophole for barbarism.

4. ON BELIEFS AND ATHEISM
Here are the reasons you’ve presented for your past atheism:
  • You thought god-belief was silly. (You haven’t explained why.)
  • You thought people that believed in god were stupid. (You haven’t explained why.)
  • You thought you were smarter than god-believers. (You haven’t explained why.)
And here are the reasons you presented for your conversion to Christianity:
  • Biblical predictions seem to have come true.
  • The state of the existence prior to the Big Bang isn’t fully understood.
  • Your friend saw a burning cross.
  • Prayers were answered ambiguously.
  • An argumentum ad populum: If many believe so, it is so.

You haven’t elaborated on why you were an atheist, but from what you’ve typed you had poor reasons for being an atheist then, and you have poor reasons for being a Christian now. I believe there have been many atheist to Christian conversions. But the reason why many atheists don’t believe them is because their reasons for being an atheist are bad reasons, and not based on rational and critical thought. We always hear “I was big into drugs and I just wanted to sin” or “I was angry with God” and these are truly poor reasons to not believe in the supernatural. Now if you had said, “One reason I was an atheist was due to the fact that Yahweh existed as a pagan Canaanite god prior to being the god of Israel,” then that would have been a good reason for nonbelief in Yahweh. Do you see my concern about your reasons for your past disbelief?

“Plenty of people think they are worshiping God, but they are following a false religion. Since I am not following a false religion, I am not one of those people that the verse is speaking about.” –skeptic54768

You haven’t explained how you know you aren’t following a false religion. If the holy book of the religion you follow says it isn’t a false religion, you’re using circular reasoning for support. For example:

Believer: "I’m not following a false religion."
Nonbeliever: "How do you know?"
Believer: "Because the Bible says so."
Nonbeliever: "Why should I believe the Bible?"
Believer: "Because the Bible says all other religions are false. Therefore, I’m not following a false religion.”

See why circular reasoning is considered illogical? Plus, this sort of argument can be used to support any religion.

5. ON PROPHECIES
“I know the Bible is true because of all the prophecies coming true.” - skeptic54768

Biblical prophecy isn’t the least bit convincing. Since you mentioned the prophecy involving the destruction of the Holy Temple, I’ll use that as an example. Here's Jesus' prediction in Mark 13:1-4:

As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!” “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”

Let's ask ourselves the following:

When did the Siege of Jerusalem take place? 70CE.
When was the Gospel of Mark written? No earlier than 70CE.

Case closed.

So we have an unknown author living during the Roman-Jewish War (which involved the destruction of the Holy Temple) that wrote about a man that supposedly predicted the destruction of the Holy Temple. Let that sink in for a minute, then you'll understand why this Biblical prophecy isn’t convincing to nonbelievers and skeptics. But! But the passage is written in present tense! If the temple was already destroyed, why would the author of Mark write it in such a way!? Isn’t it obvious, skeptic54768? The author of Mark is a Christian. He's hardly unbiased and he’s writing a story about Jesus 70-80 years after Jesus’ death. One can conclude that the author wrote it this way to ensure that Jesus’ "prediction" came true.
 
6. ON WOMEN AND SLAVERY
“The Bible says that everyone is equal. This is in contrast with other faiths who think some people are superior, like Islam. Women are treated terribly in Islam, but given free choices in Christianity.” - skeptic54768

When Christians say things like this it makes me wonder if they’ve actually read their own Bible, or studied Christianity’s past. Or know anything about the history of women’s rights. You do realize it’s a relatively new development (18-19th century), right? And here a sample of Biblical equality:

Old Testament:
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.  –Deut. 22:28-29

New Testament:
Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. -1 Cor. 14:34–35

Those are just off the top of my head. There are many more verses that go into detail about how you should chop off the hand of a woman that attempts to stop a fight between two men, how women are treated like property and spoils of war, and how a rapist can force a rape victim to marry him. Much of this is from God’s holy mouth. So I really don’t care what Jesus supposedly said about woman and equality, because it only makes God seem like a flip-flopper on the issue, and Christians certainly didn’t interpret the Bible the way you are for thousands of years. Isn’t it funny that when the moral values in a society change that God’s values suddenly change? SPAG at it's finest.

That is a lot of questions and points! Wow! Admire the dedication!

Please tell me which ones you find most important. I can not respond to everything. I'm getting a headache thinking about all the quote tags.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Zankuu on October 17, 2013, 09:03:33 PM
Please tell me which ones you find most important. I can not respond to everything. I'm getting a headache thinking about all the quote tags.

I found those 6 points most important, barring evolution (since you're discussing that in the Insect Gear thread). I don't expect you to tackle them all in one post. But "1. ON ANIMAL SACRIFICE" would be a nice place to start.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 17, 2013, 09:16:40 PM
Please tell me which ones you find most important. I can not respond to everything. I'm getting a headache thinking about all the quote tags.

I found those 6 points most important, barring evolution (since you're discussing that in the Insect Gear thread). I don't expect you to tackle them all in one post. But "1. ON ANIMAL SACRIFICE" would be a nice place to start.

You're still asking too much from him. Present half a question.

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 17, 2013, 09:16:45 PM
Once you get the materialistic thinking out of the way and focus on the spiritual, it becomes easier to see it form our point of view.

The problem is that the word "spiritual" has no meaning. It is not tied to anything and has no referent (just like the word schmarbelfarben has no referent). "Spiritual" is a nonsensical term that has not been coherently defined. It is just another word that has been adopted, used, and assumed to have meaning by religious people. If you disagree then maybe you can begin by attempting to provide a coherent definition of "spiritual" (what it is, and not what it is not).



Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 17, 2013, 09:24:02 PM
Once you get the materialistic thinking out of the way and focus on the spiritual, it becomes easier to see it form our point of view.

The problem is that the word "spiritual" has no meaning. It is not tied to anything and has no referent (just like the word schmarbelfarben has no referent). "Spiritual" is a nonsensical term that has not been coherently defined. It is just another word that has been adopted, used, and assumed to have meaning by religious people. If you disagree then maybe you can begin by attempting to provide a coherent definition of "spiritual" (what it is, and not what it is not).

spir·it·u·al
?spiriCHo?o?l/
adjective
adjective: spiritual

    1.
    of, relating to, or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.
    "I'm responsible for his spiritual welfare"
    synonyms:   nonmaterial, incorporeal, intangible; More
    inner, mental, psychological;
    transcendent, ethereal, otherworldly, mystic, mystical, metaphysical;
    rareextramundane
    "your spiritual self"
    antonyms:   physical
        (of a person) not concerned with material values or pursuits.
    2.
    of or relating to religion or religious belief.
    "the tribe's spiritual leader"
    synonyms:   religious, sacred, divine, holy, nonsecular, church, ecclesiastical, faith
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 17, 2013, 09:25:53 PM
You so did not write that. You have to source your material or it's considered plagiarism.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 17, 2013, 09:59:29 PM
Pfft, isn't the whole idea of "plagiarism" part of the great Atheist Conspiracy?  Real, faithful people don't have to be honest about sh!t, Nam!
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 17, 2013, 11:07:46 PM

spir·it·u·al
?spiriCHo?o?l/
adjective
adjective: spiritual

    1.
    of, relating to, or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.
    "I'm responsible for his spiritual welfare"
    synonyms:   nonmaterial, incorporeal, intangible; More
    inner, mental, psychological;
    transcendent, ethereal, otherworldly, mystic, mystical, metaphysical;
    rareextramundane
    "your spiritual self"
    antonyms:   physical
        (of a person) not concerned with material values or pursuits.
    2.
    of or relating to religion or religious belief.
    "the tribe's spiritual leader"
    synonyms:   religious, sacred, divine, holy, nonsecular, church, ecclesiastical, faith

Your copy/paste doesn't tell me anything about the word "spirit" as used by you and other theists. It doesn't give me what I asked for. I asked for a POSITIVE definition of what "spirit" or "spiritual" means. That is, I am asking for a description of the alleged Noun (just like if someone asked for a description of the noun "chair"). What makes up a spirit (in positive terms, not negative terms)?

Btw, Nam is right (thx Nam!). The copy/paste you provided is plagiarism by the rules of this forum. You need to cite your sources and just so you know (I thought this was obvious) I'm asking for YOUR DEFINITION, not someone else's written in a dictionary. Didn't you know that philosophical discussions such as this often debate the meanings of terms? Quoting the dictionary doesn't help you here.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Iamrational on October 17, 2013, 11:11:08 PM
That is a lot of questions and points! Wow! Admire the dedication!

Actually that right there was complete ownage. You look at that mountain of arguments and you don't know where to start. It makes your head hurt. Don't fret though. It would make my head hurt if I tried to argue an inferior position and someone laid it down like that on me.

The greatest part about that post is everything coming together in its entirety. What is mean is Christians always can talk their way out of one argument. But when you lay down point after point it is so much harder to dance around it all.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Iamrational on October 17, 2013, 11:12:58 PM
Oh I missed this part. Skeptic says well this is amazing, where should I start?

Z says well how about you start at number 1. OK I am a dork I know I am going back to reading only
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: jaimehlers on October 17, 2013, 11:37:19 PM
OK, I am seeing that we seem to have a bit of a misunderstanding. No problem with misunderstandings. I can clarify why you are having a misunderstanding.

The child is not my child. The child is God's child. If God tells me to give give Him one of his children, then I will. I will never kill one of God's children on my own. No way.
This actually makes you far more dangerous and threatening, not less.  It means you see no problem with killing any child, no matter who the parents are, provided God tells you to, because they're "God's children" to begin with.  The child's actual parents have no say in the matter, whether or not they are members of your religion, because you would be carrying out God's will, not your own.

If you actually tried to do this, if you actually tried to murder a child because you believed God had told you to, I would consider it an irredeemably evil act, and would try to stop you any way I could.  On top of the murder of a child, you would cause irreparable harm to anyone else who cared about the child; it could not be justified by "but God told me to!"

I strongly advise you to speak to someone about this, because you're a Jim Jones in the making.

Quote from: skeptic54768
We all deserve forgiveness. I love murderers in a spiritual sense. "Hate the sin, love the sinner" is the common phrase. I hate what they are doing, but I love them anyway. Hopefully, they can become right with the Lord before they die. No one is beyond redemption.
In a sense, I agree with you.  No matter what someone does, no matter how crazy they get, they don't stop being a human being.  But there are some things that can't be forgiven, because they show that someone is too dangerous to others to be allowed to continue to live.  In that case, they deserve to die, but as swiftly and painlessly as possible.  My efforts at 'redemption' would be proactive, trying to convince them not to do such things if I was aware of them in advance.  Much as I am trying to do now, with you.

Quote from: skeptic54768
I do not see how this type of pure love can be seen as dangerous. Once you get the materialistic thinking out of the way and focus on the spiritual, it becomes easier to see it form our point of view.
What, you mean like thinking of it as sending someone to meet God instead of an act of murder?  No, I consider that to be exceptionally dangerous.  Once you rationalize murder away like that, it's far too easy to justify actually going through with it.  The worst part is that it isn't love of any kind, let alone pure love.  Love doesn't cause you to kill the object of your love.  Love is when you put someone else ahead of yourself.  Frankly, I'm not sure what it is that would be masquerading as love for you to be able to commit murder and say it was because of love.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 18, 2013, 02:02:05 AM
Congrats skeptic54768, your argument in a nutshell is.

My god is the real god because the bible says so because it is the word of god because my god is the real god because the bible says so because it is the word of god because my god is the real god because the bible says so because it is the word of god because my god is the real god because the bible says so because it is the word of god because my god is the real god because the bible says so because it is the word of god because my god is the real god because the bible says so because it is the word of god because my god is the real god .

In that case, the flying spaghetti monster is the real god because pastafarians say so because pastafarians are always right because the flying spaghetti monster is the real god because pastafarians say so because pastafarians are always right because the flying spaghetti monster is the real god because pastafarians say so because pastafarians are always right because the flying spaghetti monster is the real god because pastafarians say so because pastafarians are always right because the flying spaghetti monster is the real god because pastafarians say so because pastafarians are always right because the flying spaghetti monster is the real god.

See how this does not work?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Jonny-UK on October 18, 2013, 06:36:32 AM
The child is not my child. The child is God's child. If God tells me to give give Him one of his children, then I will. I will never kill one of God's children on my own. No way.
I really don't know whether to just reply here or call the police.
You would kill a child if your imaginary friend told you too?
I must have missed that quote earlier. As a parent i can assure you that no one who claims to love a child could do that unless seriously mentally ill.
This is also a big point against the claim of there being a loving god. Why would he ever allow a person he supposedly loves to be killed or tortured or raped or starving?

Quote
Congrats skeptic54768, your argument in a nutshell is.

My god is the real god because the bible says so because it is the word of god because my god is the real god because the bible says so because it is the word of god because my god is the real god because the bible says so because it is the word of god because my god is the real god because the bible says so because it is the word of god because my god is the real god because the bible says so because it is the word of god because my god is the real god because the bible says so because it is the word of god because my god is the real god .

Exactly, and why I asked him earlier.....................is there anything outside the book ?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Anfauglir on October 18, 2013, 06:41:06 AM
The child is God's child. If God tells me to give give Him one of his children, then I will.

lol I am not dangerous. I find it funny that atheists seem to describe Christians as dangerous.

Yeah.  Absolutely hilarious.  I can't imagine why we atheists would ever think that Christians are dangerous.

54768 , you've just told me that if you thought god wanted you to kill my child, you would kill them.  Can you honestly not see how that makes me believe you are dangerous?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Graybeard on October 18, 2013, 07:14:20 AM

I am not following the power this god showed over Yahweh.
Can you explain your question/point? I'm not seeing it.

You said that no other god had defeated your god. The evidence is against you because we see that the god Chemosh defeated Yahweh when Chemosh and Yahweh decided to fight.

Quote
I will not go into the instances of human sacrifice to God in the Bible but, this was obviously "powerful magic" to the Israelites that truly worried them, and thus we have, as the final act of a desperate god, the folk tale of the crucifixion - a god sacrificing his son.

However, this imaginary crucifixion, when looked at logically, can result in only two conclusions:

Jesus was God as well and therefore could not die.
Jesus was not god but some wandering zealot who ended up dead.

As you won't like the second, I will remind you that gods cannot die and therefore there was no sacrifice.

What do you not understand about the above?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Prejah on October 18, 2013, 07:50:03 AM


Chapter 7 talks about the do's and don'ts of marriage. What men can do, and what women can't. It states that a man can divorce a woman (never mentions a wife can divorce her husband), and that verse states that even in divorce she belongs to him. So, he can remarry but she can't or she will become and adulterer. She can only remarry if her husband (ex or otherwise) dies.

Once she marries him she is, basically, his property for life, even in divorce. The whole chapter is about marriage and divorce how you think it is not is baffling.

-Nam

Perhaps you need to read chapter 7 again?

10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband.  11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife. Doesn't this contradict what you said about men divorcing their wives? Men are being told they cannot divorce their wives

13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him.Clearly gives the authority of the wife to divorce the husband if for just reason-which living with non believer is not.  Nowhere in this chapter, that I can see, does it state that a woman is the husband's property and cannot divorce him if the situation is just. NIV  What version are you quoting from?

This is why skeptic says to start at the verse and work up from the chapter. People who don't understand it tend to get confused when they pick a verse to stand on.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Jag on October 18, 2013, 07:53:46 AM
Well, THIS should be fun!

BM
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 18, 2013, 08:02:57 AM
What does this "BM" mean?
I have seen it a lot and cant get the acronym XD.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Mrjason on October 18, 2013, 08:06:42 AM
What does this "BM" mean?
I have seen it a lot and cant get the acronym XD.

Bookmark.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: JeffPT on October 18, 2013, 08:13:05 AM
Atheism never offered me anything either.
Atheism isn't about offering anything, it is simply a lack of belief as you should well know claiming to be a former one.
Religions claim to offer things however I have yet to see anything in the world that would give the smallest amount of credibility to this.
Please feel free to show us all something........not a quote from a book.
i

Fair enough. it was the lack of belief that didn't offer me anything then. It was depressing. Much happier now as a believer. It's like my eyes were opened.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.   George Bernard Shaw
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Anfauglir on October 18, 2013, 08:16:09 AM
BM means "bookmark" - so the thread will appear in your "show new replis to my posts" list, even though you may not be actively contributing.

- - -

Gotta say - I've just read 1 Corinthians 7 with (I believe) an open mind.  Initially, I sided with Prejah: I thought "actually, this DOES read like for like".  But then I read closer what it actually said, and the subtle shades of language (that, to be fair, do not appear in Prejah's version.

1 Cor 7 10-11 "Let not the wife depart from her husband: .....and let not the husband put away his wife. "

Very subtle distinction - "don't let the wife leave", compared to "don't let the husband send her away". 

Agreed, the end result is "nobody divorces", but it is at least interesting the way it is phrased.  Wife may not choose to leave, husband may not choose to send her away - that definitely puts the husband in the superior position, with the implication that he is the only one of the pair that would have had the choice.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 18, 2013, 10:18:16 AM


Chapter 7 talks about the do's and don'ts of marriage. What men can do, and what women can't. It states that a man can divorce a woman (never mentions a wife can divorce her husband), and that verse states that even in divorce she belongs to him. So, he can remarry but she can't or she will become and adulterer. She can only remarry if her husband (ex or otherwise) dies.

Once she marries him she is, basically, his property for life, even in divorce. The whole chapter is about marriage and divorce how you think it is not is baffling.

-Nam

Perhaps you need to read chapter 7 again?

10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband.  11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife. Doesn't this contradict what you said about men divorcing their wives? Men are being told they cannot divorce their wives

13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him.Clearly gives the authority of the wife to divorce the husband if for just reason-which living with non believer is not.  Nowhere in this chapter, that I can see, does it state that a woman is the husband's property and cannot divorce him if the situation is just. NIV  What version are you quoting from?

This is why skeptic says to start at the verse and work up from the chapter. People who don't understand it tend to get confused when they pick a verse to stand on.

What version is that? I read from the KJV mainly because it was the first recognizable English version. All versions after that always seem to change the meaning to fit their ideology.

See, you must have another version than I do because 1 Corinthians 7:11 says, and I quote:

Quote
But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife

"put away his wife" in this regard is in reference to the wife reconciliating with her ex-husband since the verse states she isn't permitted to remarry another man because in another verse her husband owns her. She is his property for life.

Try reading a version that doesn't interpret it the way they morally feel it should say. Okay.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: jdawg70 on October 18, 2013, 02:45:49 PM
OK, I am seeing that we seem to have a bit of a misunderstanding. No problem with misunderstandings. I can clarify why you are having a misunderstanding.

The child is not my child. The child is God's child. If God tells me to give give Him one of his children, then I will. I will never kill one of God's children on my own. No way.
jaimehlers responded to this in a most excellent way, and I don't really have much to add.
Quote
We all deserve forgiveness. I love murderers in a spiritual sense. "Hate the sin, love the sinner" is the common phrase. I hate what they are doing, but I love them anyway. Hopefully, they can become right with the Lord before they die. No one is beyond redemption.
Why did you say before they die?  Doesn't that imply that people who have died without redemption are then beyond redemption?
Quote
I do not see how this type of pure love can be seen as dangerous. Once you get the materialistic thinking out of the way and focus on the spiritual, it becomes easier to see it form our point of view.

I hope this helps to clear up the misunderstanding.
This type of 'pure love' you allude to is completely meaningless.  It is empty love.  It is simply a word you use.  Saying "I love absolutely everything!  Nothing is beyond my love!" is pointless.  It makes love a four letter word that is devoid of meaning and content.  It's a label you slap on things to make you sound like a good person without actually having to be a good person.

Could you go into any more detail about this whole "thinking spiritually" thing you've alluded to (and have been questioned on multiple times)?  It just seems like "thinking spiritually" is synonymous with "not thinking about it too hard".
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 18, 2013, 03:09:57 PM
jdawg,

Especially since Biblegod  wants his sheep to give only their love, all their love, to it. So, if they are doing that--how can they really love anyone else?

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 18, 2013, 04:09:32 PM
Why did you say before they die?  Doesn't that imply that people who have died without redemption are then beyond redemption?

I don't know for sure. Maybe you will get a chance to accept Christ upon death, but I wouldn't put all my eggs in that one basket.

This type of 'pure love' you allude to is completely meaningless.  It is empty love.  It is simply a word you use.  Saying "I love absolutely everything!  Nothing is beyond my love!" is pointless.  It makes love a four letter word that is devoid of meaning and content.  It's a label you slap on things to make you sound like a good person without actually having to be a good person.

Not meaningless at all. I hate the sin, but love the sinner. Love and hate working together in harmony.

If you use this argument anyway, then the problem of evil has been solved because we can't call anything "good" without something "bad" to compare it to. But, I always found the problem of evil to be one of the most juvenile kiddie types of argument. Bible never says that nothing bad will ever happen to believers. Read book of Job.

Could you go into any more detail about this whole "thinking spiritually" thing you've alluded to (and have been questioned on multiple times)?  It just seems like "thinking spiritually" is synonymous with "not thinking about it too hard".

Materialism is gaining the world by losing your spirit.
Spiritualism is gaining wealth by losing the world.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 18, 2013, 04:12:53 PM
jdawg,

Especially since Biblegod  wants his sheep to give only their love, all their love, to it. So, if they are doing that--how can they really love anyone else?

-Nam

Simply untrue. If a shepherd has 100 sheep and loses 1, he leaves the 99 sheep to go find the 1.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 18, 2013, 04:17:50 PM
1. ON ANIMAL SACRIFICE
“With that said, I would like to say that Jesus' sacrifice was important because He willingly did it. That is the ultimate act of love.” - skeptic54768

If Jesus is God (John 1:1-1-14), the creator of all things, and God is all knowing (Isaiah 46:9) then the entire plan is asinine, sacrifice and all. Seriously, Jesus’ sacrifice means nothing if the sacrifice is to and for himself.

Sacrifice was for us, not Himself.

If God has the attributes of being all powerful, all knowing, and has the ability to foresee the future, are you telling me that the best he could come up with is a plan which involves designing purposely flawed creations (man, woman, and the snake), temporarily leaving and setting up the perfect opportunity for man to be tricked, eventually drowning his flawed creations and regretting it, then eventually sacrificing himself to himself so his creations can be spared the eternal torture? It just doesn’t make any sense. Why not skip the whole dramatic flood event and get straight to sacrificing himself? Or better yet, why not just forgive without the sacrifice?

I can not tell you why God does what He does. It may seem silly to you, but that would be an argument from incredulity, a logical fallacy.

Just because you personally can not think of a reason doesn't mean there is no reason. I hope to ask God one day.

“In the Old Testament, blood of an innocent lamb was used on the door's of the Hebrews. This represented how an innocent animal must be sacrificed to atone for sins.” - skeptic54768

Animal sacrifice…I don’t even know where to start. I guess this is what I want to know first- how does slitting an animal’s carotid artery and having its blood spill out translate over to atonement? Really, please explain the mechanism behind the forgiveness. How does it work? Why does an innocent animal have to be involved? Saying that something clean is needed in order to be used to redeem the dirty doesn’t explain anything. That’s just a subjective rule of forgiveness a god created. What is Yahweh’s obsession with innocent blood? And he isn’t the only god of antiquity that’s obsessed with blood sacrifice:
  • Kisin, the Mayan god of death required blood sacrifices.
  • Tezcatlipoca, an Aztec god required sacrifices for atonement.
  • Jupiter, a Roman god, was calmed by the spilling of chicken and cow blood.
  • The Sumerian gods accepted animal sacrifice in order to keep the peace.
  • Greek gods were fans of the entrails, lard, and spices.
  • Germanic gods were appeased by animal sacrifices.
  • The list goes on and on...

So tell me something, 54768, how is your god any different when it comes to animal bloodshed? You claim that these other gods were just demons in disguise, but honestly, I can’t tell your god Yahweh apart from Kisin, El, Thor, Marduk, Jupiter, Zeus, or Tezcatlipoca. To bring it full circle, you said that Jesus’ sacrifice to himself for humanity’s sake was the ultimate act of love. An ultimate act of love would not require a sacrifice in the first place. If you want to forgive someone then you just forgive that person with no strings attached. Let’s say I wronged you, 54768, and you decided to lovingly forgive me. What would be more loving and forgiving: 1) simply forgiving me or 2) having me slit the neck of the nearest pigeon and splash its blood on a park bench, or 3) crucifying 54768 Jr. on my behalf?

Any sane person (or deity) would go with #1.

The sacrificial lamb plan is not a plan I would expect from an intelligent moral agent. I sincerely mean that.

I can not tell you why God does what He does. It may seem silly to you, but that would be an argument from incredulity, a logical fallacy.

Just because you personally can not think of a reason doesn't mean there is no reason. I hope to ask God one day.

I am not big on arguments from incredulity.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 18, 2013, 04:30:31 PM
Spiritual experiences are a dime a dozen and aren’t convincing. The problem is people say they have spiritual experiences with gods other than yours, and they use these experiences to claim their god is real, just like you do. Muslims saw angels, Hindus saw and became one with Brahman through meditation, et cetera et cetera et cetera- there are millions of these accounts and they aren’t any more or less convincing than Christian experiences.

Your friend saw a flaming cross in front of his face while he read the Bible? So what? There are countless Muslim testimonies on the internet with nearly identical stories: they were reading the Koran and had a spiritual experience while reading it (saw the word Allah spelt out, felt Allah’s warm glow, saw the face of Muhammad). You wouldn’t take any of that as proof the Koran is true, so why would you take your friend’s story as evidence the Bible is true? Your societal bias is showing.

I have no doubt in my mind that they all had religious experiences. The problem is that Satan and his demons create this spiritual experience in followers of demonic doctrines.

I understand your point of view. To you, all experiences are the same and they sound conflicting. But, from my viewpoint they are conflicting because Satan and his demons are very busy deceiving people.

Like I said before, if God just spoonfed everything to us like we do to babies, we would never spiritually mature and grow up. The spiritually mature understand the right religion from false religions.

Look at the Jews for example. They rejected their own Messiah. Why? Because Satan is very powerful and can trick you if you're not ready for it.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 18, 2013, 04:36:06 PM
Spiritual experiences are a dime a dozen and aren’t convincing. The problem is people say they have spiritual experiences with gods other than yours, and they use these experiences to claim their god is real, just like you do. Muslims saw angels, Hindus saw and became one with Brahman through meditation, et cetera et cetera et cetera- there are millions of these accounts and they aren’t any more or less convincing than Christian experiences.

Your friend saw a flaming cross in front of his face while he read the Bible? So what? There are countless Muslim testimonies on the internet with nearly identical stories: they were reading the Koran and had a spiritual experience while reading it (saw the word Allah spelt out, felt Allah’s warm glow, saw the face of Muhammad). You wouldn’t take any of that as proof the Koran is true, so why would you take your friend’s story as evidence the Bible is true? Your societal bias is showing.

I have no doubt in my mind that they all had religious experiences. The problem is that Satan and his demons create this spiritual experience in followers of demonic doctrines.

I understand your point of view. To you, all experiences are the same and they sound conflicting. But, from my viewpoint they are conflicting because Satan and his demons are very busy deceiving people.

Like I said before, if God just spoonfed everything to us like we do to babies, we would never spiritually mature and grow up. The spiritually mature understand the right religion from false religions.

Look at the Jews for example. They rejected their own Messiah. Why? Because Satan is very powerful and can trick you if you're not ready for it.

So you were just lucky to be born in the right country so you can go to heaven?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 18, 2013, 04:38:14 PM
jdawg,

Especially since Biblegod  wants his sheep to give only their love, all their love, to it. So, if they are doing that--how can they really love anyone else?

-Nam

Simply untrue. If a shepherd has 100 sheep and loses 1, he leaves the 99 sheep to go find the 1.

Woosh!

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: neopagan on October 18, 2013, 04:40:31 PM
Skep,
Makes one wonder why Satan and his brood are so active: giving crazy visions, creating false religions - like chritiandom's oldest[1], talking in your thoughts, doing miracles, deceiving the hell out of do-gooder christian types in the religions you disagree with, and running atheist forums.
Meanwhile, god doesn't do shit to either show he is real or beat up on the demons who are clearly kicking his ass all over the world.  Wimpy god...
 1. that would be Catholicism whether you admit it or not.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 18, 2013, 04:42:52 PM
My apologies, the text size varies on my phone, I tend to misread at times. I retract.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: neopagan on October 18, 2013, 04:44:25 PM
^^^ a demon might answer...
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 18, 2013, 04:50:43 PM
Skep,
Makes one wonder why Satan and his brood are so active: giving crazy visions, creating false religions - like chritiandom's oldest[1], talking in your thoughts, doing miracles, deceiving the hell out of do-gooder christian types in the religions you disagree with, and running atheist forums.
Meanwhile, god doesn't do shit to either show he is real or beat up on the demons who are clearly kicking his ass all over the world.  Wimpy god...
 1. that would be Catholicism whether you admit it or not.

What do you expect? Jesus said that the gate is narrow to heaven, not wide. Of the 2 billion professed Christians on Earth, we must realize that only about 1% of those Christians are actual followers of Christ.

A lot of people are deceived and don't even realize they are deceived. 

Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 18, 2013, 04:53:55 PM
So you were just lucky to be born in the right country so you can go to heaven?

Not at all. It doesn't matter what country you are from. Anyone can accept Christ.

My knowledge came from studying the Bible.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Truth OT on October 18, 2013, 04:58:57 PM

Sacrifice was for us, not Himself.
 

And you make this claim in spite of what the Bible says to the contrary. As I have said before what many believers miss is that Jesus' life and sacrifices were not really about us as much as if was about what he and his chosen elect would get from it.
Have you not read Luke 22:29 where he talks about the kingdom that was promised to him or Acts 2:33-36 where Peter speaks about Jesus being elevated to Lord status, and let us not forget what Paul said in Philippians 2:9-10 about Jesus' obedience unto death resulting in Jesus being given a name above all names.
Bottom line according to the Bible, Jesus had something to gain from all of this and the byproduct was the availability of the gift of eternal life for Jesus elect and those that were willing to submit to him as their king. Those that were not ready to bow to King Jesus be damned (Luke 22:27)!

I can not tell you why God does what He does. It may seem silly to you, but that would be an argument from incredulity, a logical fallacy.

Just because you personally can not think of a reason doesn't mean there is no reason. I hope to ask God one day.

I am not big on arguments from incredulity.

I'm gonna be bluntly honest with you Skeptic, your god exists exclusively in your own mind so you should be able to tell us the whens and the whys about it. You created it based on your conditioning, understanding, circumstances, biases, beliefs, moral values, and other personal criteria. Your god many share many similarities to other people's god, but each of you has individualized your deity to the point where they all vary from person to person. Here you will see that phenomenon charactorized as SPAG.

Like mostly all believers your understanding and the god that developed from it was built around the"scafolding" of perhaps the Bible. You drew an image from that and created a fuller picture based on your perspective and understanding, personified that picture so it's relatable, and then assigned to it all the glory and majesty of deity you know how. You must realize that the 'scaffolding' you were given as the basis for your god-creation was given to us by men who injected their prejudices, phobias, morality, values, and perceptions of reality into various writings that have been compiled to form the Bible. They used the God Concept to give credence to their beliefs and actions they deemed as righteous. Please try and understand that the god you have in your head/heart is NOT one and the same with the depiction(s) of god(s) those ancient men wrote about. Your god is quite likely more humane, more advanced, less tribal, less prejudiced, more compatible with modern science, and is more cohesive. Hmm, why is that?

All that to say that you have built your god on a weak foundation and because of that you have had to run with and make a ton of assumptions. When confronted with this reality your are forced to try to rationalize what many would say is irrational or you must use circular reasoning or obfuscation. The God Fantasy your mind is delivering to you is making you work to hard to maintain the illusion. It's time for you to choose to question the illusion your mind is presenting and demand solid, irrefutable verification!
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: neopagan on October 18, 2013, 05:01:51 PM
Skep,
Makes one wonder why Satan and his brood are so active: giving crazy visions, creating false religions - like chritiandom's oldest[1], talking in your thoughts, doing miracles, deceiving the hell out of do-gooder christian types in the religions you disagree with, and running atheist forums.
Meanwhile, god doesn't do shit to either show he is real or beat up on the demons who are clearly kicking his ass all over the world.  Wimpy god...
 1. that would be Catholicism whether you admit it or not.

What do you expect? Jesus said that the gate is narrow to heaven, not wide. Of the 2 billion professed Christians on Earth, we must realize that only about 1% of those Christians are actual followers of Christ.

A lot of people are deceived and don't even realize they are deceived.

your god has a horrible batting average look at the fails and broken covenants:
Eden... strikeout
Flood.... strikeout
Abraham.... strikeout
Moses.... strikeout
Jesus.... extra, extra, extra innings and still a strikeout with less than 1% out of your 2 billion

wimpy and incompetent god...
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 18, 2013, 05:03:27 PM
So you were just lucky to be born in the right country so you can go to heaven?

Not at all. It doesn't matter what country you are from. Anyone can accept Christ.

My knowledge came from studying the Bible.

No they can't. Apart from being illegal in some countries, people usually follow a version of the religion which surrounds them. What choice did you have to form your views around a different religion?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Jonny-UK on October 18, 2013, 05:18:28 PM
So you were just lucky to be born in the right country so you can go to heaven?

Not at all. It doesn't matter what country you are from. Anyone can accept Christ.

My knowledge came from studying the Bible.
Can i ask the same question yet again..........anything outside the book?
The bible is clearly written by man, your knowledge comes from a man made book.
What in the world would point someone to the bible and not one of the other religious books available? Why do you think you have followed the correct book?
What led you to the bible and not one of the other available religious books?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 18, 2013, 05:38:06 PM
What do you mean by judge, exactly?  Do you mean in the sense of judging whether a belief is true or not?

Mocking God
Calling us stupid and mentally ill
Calling us dangerous
Calling our beliefs a joke, fairy tale, superstition

very offensive stuff.


So you think it is offensive, but you enjoy mocking other people's beliefs, saying they are demonic and calling people dangerous if they are atheist.



No. it is very dangerous to follow your own understanding. This is a demonic doctrine. It's even written in the Bible, "Lean not on your own understanding." Demons want you to believe that you know it all and you don't need God.

Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 18, 2013, 06:48:44 PM

So you think it is offensive, but you enjoy mocking other people's beliefs, saying they are demonic and calling people dangerous if they are atheist.

I am not mocking their beliefs. I am saying their belief is a false doctrine. It's called proclaiming the truth, not mocking.

Nobody has yet refuted the Catholic Church's Satanic symbols and the ones on the Mormon temple. When a church is using Satanic symbols, you know there's a problem. The lay people have no clue that the Catholic Church uses satanic imagery because they have never studied in depth. Those that study it in depth leave the church.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 18, 2013, 07:01:47 PM

So you think it is offensive, but you enjoy mocking other people's beliefs, saying they are demonic and calling people dangerous if they are atheist.

I am not mocking their beliefs. I am saying their belief is a false doctrine. It's called proclaiming the truth, not mocking.

Nobody has yet refuted the Catholic Church's Satanic symbols and the ones on the Mormon temple. When a church is using Satanic symbols, you know there's a problem. The lay people have no clue that the Catholic Church uses satanic imagery because they have never studied in depth. Those that study it in depth leave the church.

Do you also deny that you called other beliefs dangerous?

What would you say if I said I could prove your beliefs are satanic (on your own terms)? I can.

Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 18, 2013, 07:02:28 PM

So you think it is offensive, but you enjoy mocking other people's beliefs, saying they are demonic and calling people dangerous if they are atheist.

I am not mocking their beliefs. I am saying their belief is a false doctrine. It's called proclaiming the truth, not mocking.

Nobody has yet refuted the Catholic Church's Satanic symbols and the ones on the Mormon temple. When a church is using Satanic symbols, you know there's a problem. The lay people have no clue that the Catholic Church uses satanic imagery because they have never studied in depth. Those that study it in depth leave the church.


Except you haven't demonstrated that there is any such things as the "Satanic" or "the demonic". It's just a claim you keep repeating over and over. Until you can actually demonstrate these things there is no reason to accept them, anymore than the claims of an astrologer, an alchemist/witch doctor, or someone who believes in space aliens.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 18, 2013, 07:11:07 PM

So you think it is offensive, but you enjoy mocking other people's beliefs, saying they are demonic and calling people dangerous if they are atheist.

I am not mocking their beliefs. I am saying their belief is a false doctrine. It's called proclaiming the truth, not mocking.

Nobody has yet refuted the Catholic Church's Satanic symbols and the ones on the Mormon temple. When a church is using Satanic symbols, you know there's a problem. The lay people have no clue that the Catholic Church uses satanic imagery because they have never studied in depth. Those that study it in depth leave the church.


Except you haven't demonstrated that there is any such things as the "Satanic" or "the demonic". It's just a claim you keep repeating over and over. Until you can actually demonstrate these things there is no reason to accept them, anymore than the claims of an astrologer, an alchemist/witch doctor, or someone who believes in space aliens.

it doesn't matter if you believe in Satan or not. the fact is that those symbols have been used by satanic religions in the past. They are now used by the Catholic Church.

make of that what you will. To me, it's obvious.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 18, 2013, 07:25:25 PM
How about not murder the Egyptian firstborns? I would have expected a benevolent being with ultimate intelligence to have educated the Pharaoh. If you were God what would you have done? If you tell me you also would have started slaughtered innocent people then you need to check yourself in to a hospital, because you’re a sociopath. And you may very well say “Sure I would!” in order to make excuses for Yahweh, but I doubt you would order the mutilation of children like he does, or for that matter, carry it out like Moses and his army does in the book.

You also have to deal with the problem that this was all God’s plan from the start. He designed the Pharaoh in such a way that he would kill the Hebrew’s firstborn males. He knew he was going to get his own rocks off getting revenge by killing innocent Egyptians. Why? Because he planned it “In the Beginning…” If God didn’t want to slaughter children then he simply wouldn’t slaughter children. That’s sort of the perk of being a god, you get to make the rules.

If my child was murdered in front of me the last thing I would do is grab a kitchen knife and murder someone else’s child. The length you’re going to in order to justify Yahweh murdering innocent children is impressive. You’re so afraid of questioning Yahweh you’re willing to create loopholes so he gets a free pass on things you find deplorable.

But I have been the Lord your God ever since you came out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me. […] The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open. –Hosea 13:4-16

So Yahweh sends an army to murder children and gut pregnant women. But God knows best right? Those unborn children were God’s anyway. He can spill as many fetuses and placentas in the dirt as often as he wants, because Yahweh's got that ultimate love, right? That’s quite a loophole for barbarism.

It's not barbarism. Do you realize how many people get abortions without a second thought? Atheists can not be pro-choice and then argue against God killing children in the womb.

That's a silly contradictory position to hold.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 18, 2013, 07:43:02 PM
it doesn't matter if you believe in Satan or not. the fact is that those symbols have been used by satanic religions in the past. They are now used by the Catholic Church.
make of that what you will. To me, it's obvious.


See now you are contradicting yourself again. Earlier you said you don't lean on your own understanding, but now you just admitted that you are (to you "it's obvious") leaning on your own understanding. You just will not see the contradictions in your worldview, will you? In any case, if there is offense on both sides so what. I, and others here, have asked for evidence of why you think this bible is "the Word of God". Please provide it in the OP I created.


Getting back to topic now, this alleged 'sacrifice' did not require the alleged God thing to give up anything. So it wasn't a real sacrifice. If you are going to be consistent you will have to admit that in the OT the people actually lost something (namely an oxe, etc). God making a piece of himself flesh (when he, according to you, owns all flesh) and then destroying that flesh (if true) isn't a loss of anything - and it doesn't matter that there was physical pain. The physical pain of an innocent man (who did not commit a specific murder), or an animal for that matter, doesn't do anything to admonish the true killers terrible deeds. It seems you are using "don't lean on your own understanding" anytime you realize there is a contradiction or irrational justification within your theology. That is called intellectual dishonesty.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: median on October 18, 2013, 07:43:59 PM

It's not barbarism. Do you realize how many people get abortions without a second thought? Atheists can not be pro-choice and then argue against God killing children in the womb.

That's a silly contradictory position to hold.


Is abortion barbaric?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 18, 2013, 07:53:29 PM
Is abortion barbaric?

To perform on your own, absolutely.
For God to do it, not at all.

Just like if you keep a known serial killer locked up in your basement for months and you don't tell the cops and the cops find out about it, you will get in trouble.
But, locking them up in prison is OK.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 18, 2013, 07:56:43 PM
it doesn't matter if you believe in Satan or not. the fact is that those symbols have been used by satanic religions in the past. They are now used by the Catholic Church.
make of that what you will. To me, it's obvious.


See now you are contradicting yourself again. Earlier you said you don't lean on your own understanding, but now you just admitted that you are (to you "it's obvious") leaning on your own understanding. You just will not see the contradictions in your worldview, will you? In any case, if there is offense on both sides so what. I, and others here, have asked for evidence of why you think this bible is "the Word of God". Please provide it in the OP I created.


Getting back to topic now, this alleged 'sacrifice' did not require the alleged God thing to give up anything. So it wasn't a real sacrifice. If you are going to be consistent you will have to admit that in the OT the people actually lost something (namely an oxe, etc). God making a piece of himself flesh (when he, according to you, owns all flesh) and then destroying that flesh (if true) isn't a loss of anything - and it doesn't matter that there was physical pain. The physical pain of an innocent man (who did not commit a specific murder), or an animal for that matter, doesn't do anything to admonish the true killers terrible deeds. It seems you are using "don't lean on your own understanding" anytime you realize there is a contradiction or irrational justification within your theology. That is called intellectual dishonesty.

The point is that God could have just forgiven us without the sacrifice. But, He willingly went through with the sacrifice as a homage to us. God willfully took part in pain and suffering to be like us. I find that extraordinarily loving.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 18, 2013, 09:08:49 PM
To perform on your own, absolutely.
For God to do it, not at all.

What makes god so special as to not be barbaric?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 18, 2013, 09:12:40 PM
What makes god so special as to not be barbaric?

His creations. His choice.

Does the clay tell the potter what to make?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 18, 2013, 09:20:21 PM
His creations. His choice.

So a mother can murder her family because she "made" them?
Nice work there, making gender equality again.

Does the clay tell the potter what to make?

If it was sentient and intelligent, i would say yes.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 18, 2013, 09:54:35 PM
You know what I just thought? I wish Maggie the Opinionated were here. I would LOVE for him to have a discussion with her. It'd be cool.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 18, 2013, 11:03:13 PM
So a mother can murder her family because she "made" them?
Nice work there, making gender equality again.

Mothers don't make children. God allows them to be born if it's in His plan.


If it was sentient and intelligent, i would say yes.

How silly. So we will be shutting down all the slaughterhouses?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 18, 2013, 11:10:46 PM
So a mother can murder her family because she "made" them?
Nice work there, making gender equality again.

Mothers don't make children. God allows them to be born if it's in His plan.


If it was sentient and intelligent, i would say yes.

How silly. So we will be shutting down all the slaughterhouses?

You get more stupid in my eyes every post you make. I have seen a woman give birth; you can find videos online of women giving birth. So, in a sense it takes two to create a child (man/woman), Biblegod isn't a part of that process.

Unless you're saying only Biblegod  impregnates females; and if so, it's a serial rapist.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 18, 2013, 11:15:35 PM
So a mother can murder her family because she "made" them?
Nice work there, making gender equality again.

Mothers don't make children. God allows them to be born if it's in His plan.


If it was sentient and intelligent, i would say yes.

How silly. So we will be shutting down all the slaughterhouses?

You get more stupid in my eyes every post you make. I have seen a woman give birth; you can find videos online of women giving birth. So, in a sense it takes two to create a child (man/woman), Biblegod isn't a part of that process.

Unless you're saying only Biblegod  impregnates females; and if so, it's a serial rapist.

-Nam

http://www.funnyjunk.com/funny_pictures/3224635/Hey+brother/
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 18, 2013, 11:16:38 PM
I'm sorry, I don't click links by idiots. Try again.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 18, 2013, 11:18:31 PM
I'm sorry, I don't click links by idiots. Try again.

-Nam

That link basically demolishes atheism.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 18, 2013, 11:22:36 PM
I'm sorry, I don't click links by idiots. Try again.

-Nam

That link basically demolishes atheism.

How does one demolish a concept or idea that has been around longer than the concept or idea of a "god/s"?

One can't demolish an idea. They can discount it but they can't demolish it.

Try again.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 18, 2013, 11:26:03 PM
Mothers don't make children. God allows them to be born if it's in His plan.

Mothers don't make children?
I guess electrons don't power light-bulbs then.
What an idiot.

How silly. So we will be shutting down all the slaughterhouses?

Farm animals are not smart, nor sentient.

To add, that image you linked is utter bullshit, as we know mothers exist, and that atheists do believe mothers exist.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 18, 2013, 11:33:05 PM
To add, that image you linked is utter bullshit, as we know mothers exist, and that atheists do believe mothers exist.

You must have missed the point.

The babies have never seen mom.
Are they justified in not believing in mom?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 18, 2013, 11:36:36 PM
To add, that image you linked is utter bullshit, as we know mothers exist, and that atheists do believe mothers exist.

You must have missed the point.

The babies have never seen mom.
Are they justified in not believing in mom?

What EXACTLY do you think new born babies believe in? Jesus?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 18, 2013, 11:39:09 PM
What EXACTLY do you think new born babies believe in? Jesus?

Excellent tapdancing!

 Could be a nice career for you.  :)
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 18, 2013, 11:39:43 PM
You must have missed the point.

I think you do not know what a fetus is.
Not baby, "fetus".

The babies have never seen mom.
Are they justified in not believing in mom?

A fetus is incapable of such thoughts to start, so yes, they are justified, just like how a rock can never see or think about anything.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 18, 2013, 11:42:10 PM
I think you do not know what a fetus is.
Not baby, "fetus".

It's a human being. Don't devalue the life of a human being.

A fetus is incapable of such thoughts to start, so yes, they are justified, just like how a rock can never see or think about anything.

Hypothetically, if the babies could think in the womb, would they be justified in a-momism? You know the answer is a big fat "No!" but you can't say it because it is a problem for your position.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 18, 2013, 11:44:49 PM
skeptic,

If anyone here is devaluing a human being it's and your ilk.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 18, 2013, 11:45:51 PM
It's a human being. Don't devalue the life of a human being.

Never devalued it, but it is a fetus, not a baby. Learn your own species stages of development.

Hypothetically, if the babies could think in the womb, would they be justified in a-momism? You know the answer is a big fat "No!" but you can't say it because it is a problem for your position.

Irrelevant, they cannot think, nor is it likely that they will ever.
If they could think, they would not have the intelligence to understand how they have a "mother".
If they were intelligent, they would know they have a mother, not a god.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 18, 2013, 11:46:34 PM
skeptic,

If anyone here is devaluing a human being it's and your ilk.

-Nam

My side despises abortion.

Are you pro-life or pro-choice?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 18, 2013, 11:47:44 PM
Irrelevant, they cannot think, nor is it likely that they will ever.
If they could think, they would not have the intelligence to understand how they have a "mother".
If they were intelligent, they would know they have a mother, not a god.

How would they know they have a mother? Never empirically experienced the mother...
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 18, 2013, 11:50:24 PM
I think you do not know what a fetus is.
Not baby, "fetus".

It's a human being. Don't devalue the life of a human being.

A fetus is incapable of such thoughts to start, so yes, they are justified, just like how a rock can never see or think about anything.

Hypothetically, if the babies could think in the womb, would they be justified in a-momism? You know the answer is a big fat "No!" but you can't say it because it is a problem for your position.

Hypothetically, if the babies could think in the womb, would they be justified in believing in Jesus? You know the answer is a big fat "No!" but you can't say it because it is a problem for your position.

Hypothetically, if you were born in a different country would you believe in Jesus? You know the answer is a big fat "No!" but you can't say it because it is a problem for your position.


Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 18, 2013, 11:52:25 PM
How would they know they have a mother? Never empirically experienced the mother...

As i said, if they were intelligent, i'm fairly sure they would know they have a mother.
Mothers tend to talk to their children before they are born, and i'm fairly sure that they would be inside of a "womb".
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 18, 2013, 11:54:05 PM
Hypothetically, if the babies could think in the womb, would they be justified in believing in Jesus? You know the answer is a big fat "No!" but you can't say it because it is a problem for your position.

That is quite a backpedal.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 18, 2013, 11:55:32 PM
As i said, if they were intelligent, i'm fairly sure they would know they have a mother.
Mothers tend to talk to their children before they are born, and i'm fairly sure that they would be inside of a "womb".

Womb=universe
Mother=God

babies live in womb, believe in life after birth.
We live in the universe, believe in life after death.

It's a no-brainer.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 19, 2013, 12:02:55 AM
As i said, if they were intelligent, i'm fairly sure they would know they have a mother.
Mothers tend to talk to their children before they are born, and i'm fairly sure that they would be inside of a "womb".

Womb=universe
Mother=God

babies live in womb, believe in life after birth.
We live in the universe, believe in life after death.

It's a no-brainer.

Yes, you have no brain. Stop reminding us.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 19, 2013, 12:03:16 AM
Womb=universe
Mother=God

No.
Womb= physical organ that is used to house a fetus and allow its survival.
Mother= female individual with at least one child.

babies live in womb, believe in life after birth.

No, babies live outside of a womb, learn your damned stages of development.

We live in the universe, believe in life after death.

Correction, some believe in life after death.
By some, i mean people who enjoy making themselves happy by deluding themselves.

It's a no-brainer.

No wonder you are so good at this.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 19, 2013, 12:07:10 AM
skeptic,

If anyone here is devaluing a human being it's and your ilk.

-Nam

My side despises abortion.

Are you pro-life or pro-choice?

So? Your side doesn't give a shit after the baby is born, just that it's born. Your side is heavily in favor of the Death Penalty. I guess when y'all say "we value all life", you're lying.

Pro-choice doesn't equate to anti-life. I know you don't have the brain power to differentiate from the two, doesn't mean we should listen to such diatribe by idiots who really only value their life, and no one else's.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 19, 2013, 12:10:03 AM
So? Your side doesn't give a shit after the baby is born, just that it's born. Your side is heavily in favor of the Death Penalty. I guess when y'all say "we value all life", you're lying.

Pro-choice doesn't equate to anti-life. I know you don't have the brain power to differentiate from the two, doesn't mean we should listen to such diatribe by idiots who really only value their life, and no one else's.

-Nam

You been listening to propaganda? I am against the death penalty as well.

To claim that we don't care about the baby after it's born is nonsensical. I care deeply as do many others. What makes you think we don't care about babies after they are born?

Why do you think we want the mother to put the baby up for adoption instead of just killing the baby because it's an inconvenience?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 19, 2013, 12:13:49 AM
To claim that we don't care about the baby after it's born is nonsensical. I care deeply as do many others. What makes you think we don't care about babies after they are born?

Why do you think we want the mother to put the baby up for adoption instead of just killing the baby because it's an inconvenience?

Here is question.

There is a woman and man in africa having sex, the man wants to use a condom. Would you tell him no, and let them have a child, only to have the child live an awful life?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 19, 2013, 12:17:26 AM
So? Your side doesn't give a shit after the baby is born, just that it's born. Your side is heavily in favor of the Death Penalty. I guess when y'all say "we value all life", you're lying.

Pro-choice doesn't equate to anti-life. I know you don't have the brain power to differentiate from the two, doesn't mean we should listen to such diatribe by idiots who really only value their life, and no one else's.

-Nam

You been listening to propaganda? I am against the death penalty as well.

To claim that we don't care about the baby after it's born is nonsensical. I care deeply as do many others. What makes you think we don't care about babies after they are born?

Why do you think we want the mother to put the baby up for adoption instead of just killing the baby because it's an inconvenience?

Propaganda my ass. I'm related to many of these people. I live in a huge Christian area. Small town of 6,100+ people with over 30 churches. These are things they say, and believe in.

I used to live in the Orlando area, many of those people there, too. They are all over the web. Please...propaganda. the only one shoveling propaganda is people like you.

Reminds of this racist dude I saw on TV today who said, implied, and otherwise that Obama is, and always has been a Muslim, and when he was called out on it, he said he was being metaphorical. Come on...this is what you people do. When you're called out on something you make excuses for it, you've even pulled the "metaphor card" here, more than once. When we show evidence of you being wrong in something, you ignore the post.

You're so full of shit, and those like you, that you actually believe we don't notice. We do notice, and we're laughing at you.

Adoption? Please...you're a moron. You don't care stop pretending you do.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Azdgari on October 19, 2013, 12:22:46 AM
If the fetuses in that image had reason to believe that their physical bodies would be destroyed upon exiting the womb, then they would have good reason not to believe in "life after birth".  Because they'd be destroyed.

That's what we have in the real world.  Only a moron would find that image compelling.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on October 19, 2013, 12:27:12 AM
To claim that we don't care about the baby after it's born is nonsensical. I care deeply as do many others. What makes you think we don't care about babies after they are born?

Why do you think we want the mother to put the baby up for adoption instead of just killing the baby because it's an inconvenience?
Here is question.

There is a woman and man in africa having sex, the man wants to use a condom. Would you tell him no, and let them have a child, only to have the child live an awful life?
The only legitimate excuse to have a baby in those war torn famine struck conditions,would be to eat it" Quote from Doug Stanhope comedy routine
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Zankuu on October 19, 2013, 12:27:52 AM
It's not barbarism. Do you realize how many people get abortions without a second thought? Atheists can not be pro-choice and then argue against God killing children in the womb. […] That's a silly contradictory position to hold.

skeptic54768, is there anything Yahweh could do that you would deem immoral? If yes, please give me an example. If no, then there’s really no point in discussing this with you. I want you to carefully consider this.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 19, 2013, 12:34:39 AM
It's not barbarism. Do you realize how many people get abortions without a second thought? Atheists can not be pro-choice and then argue against God killing children in the womb. […] That's a silly contradictory position to hold.

skeptic54768, is there anything Yahweh could do that you would deem immoral? If yes, please give me an example. If no, then there’s really no point in discussing this with you. I want you to carefully consider this.

Yeah, it's not like Biblegod  didn't kill any pregnant women in the Bible, hell, not even babies.

But, skeptic would say they were demon fetuses and demon babies, I guess. His logic at work.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 19, 2013, 01:17:58 AM
So? Your side doesn't give a shit after the baby is born, just that it's born. Your side is heavily in favor of the Death Penalty. I guess when y'all say "we value all life", you're lying.

Pro-choice doesn't equate to anti-life. I know you don't have the brain power to differentiate from the two, doesn't mean we should listen to such diatribe by idiots who really only value their life, and no one else's.

-Nam

You been listening to propaganda? I am against the death penalty as well.

To claim that we don't care about the baby after it's born is nonsensical. I care deeply as do many others. What makes you think we don't care about babies after they are born?

Why do you think we want the mother to put the baby up for adoption instead of just killing the baby because it's an inconvenience?

Propaganda my ass. I'm related to many of these people. I live in a huge Christian area. Small town of 6,100+ people with over 30 churches. These are things they say, and believe in.

I used to live in the Orlando area, many of those people there, too. They are all over the web. Please...propaganda. the only one shoveling propaganda is people like you.

Reminds of this racist dude I saw on TV today who said, implied, and otherwise that Obama is, and always has been a Muslim, and when he was called out on it, he said he was being metaphorical. Come on...this is what you people do. When you're called out on something you make excuses for it, you've even pulled the "metaphor card" here, more than once. When we show evidence of you being wrong in something, you ignore the post.

You're so full of shit, and those like you, that you actually believe we don't notice. We do notice, and we're laughing at you.

Adoption? Please...you're a moron. You don't care stop pretending you do.

-Nam

This is why we seem to be having problems. Being a racist is wrong. All God's children are equal. This is a Christian principle which was used to end slavery back in 1865. Anyone who is racist and claims to be Christian is simply not following God's Word.

And why do you accuse me of not caring? Adoption over abortion any day of the year.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 19, 2013, 01:19:42 AM
So instead of ending a life prematurely, you would rather ruin the kids life by ditching them for teh lulz?
Nice.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 19, 2013, 01:20:08 AM
Here is question.

There is a woman and man in africa having sex, the man wants to use a condom. Would you tell him no, and let them have a child, only to have the child live an awful life?

Would the alternative be for the Africans to just voluntarily die out?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 19, 2013, 01:21:09 AM
So instead of ending a life prematurely, you would rather ruin the kids life by ditching them for teh lulz?
Nice.

Please provide evidence that adoption ruins kids lives.
Ask the kid, "Would you rather be dead or adopted?"
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 19, 2013, 01:21:24 AM
So? Your side doesn't give a shit after the baby is born, just that it's born. Your side is heavily in favor of the Death Penalty. I guess when y'all say "we value all life", you're lying.

Pro-choice doesn't equate to anti-life. I know you don't have the brain power to differentiate from the two, doesn't mean we should listen to such diatribe by idiots who really only value their life, and no one else's.

-Nam

You been listening to propaganda? I am against the death penalty as well.

To claim that we don't care about the baby after it's born is nonsensical. I care deeply as do many others. What makes you think we don't care about babies after they are born?

Why do you think we want the mother to put the baby up for adoption instead of just killing the baby because it's an inconvenience?

Propaganda my ass. I'm related to many of these people. I live in a huge Christian area. Small town of 6,100+ people with over 30 churches. These are things they say, and believe in.

I used to live in the Orlando area, many of those people there, too. They are all over the web. Please...propaganda. the only one shoveling propaganda is people like you.

Reminds of this racist dude I saw on TV today who said, implied, and otherwise that Obama is, and always has been a Muslim, and when he was called out on it, he said he was being metaphorical. Come on...this is what you people do. When you're called out on something you make excuses for it, you've even pulled the "metaphor card" here, more than once. When we show evidence of you being wrong in something, you ignore the post.

You're so full of shit, and those like you, that you actually believe we don't notice. We do notice, and we're laughing at you.

Adoption? Please...you're a moron. You don't care stop pretending you do.

-Nam

This is why we seem to be having problems. Being a racist is wrong. All God's children are equal. This is a Christian principle which was used to end slavery back in 1865. Anyone who is racist and claims to be Christian is simply not following God's Word.

And why do you accuse me of not caring? Adoption over abortion any day of the year.

Do you understand the concept of an analogy?

Of course not...you're an idiot.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 19, 2013, 01:24:25 AM
Please provide evidence that adoption ruins kids lives.
Ask the kid, "Would you rather be dead or adopted?"

I would rather not exist, than exist and know my parents ditched me because they didn't use a condom.

Would the alternative be for the Africans to just voluntarily die out?

You realize a majority of Africa's issues stems from the lack of contraception, or are you that ignorant?

All God's children are equal.

Except gays am i right?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 19, 2013, 01:24:43 AM
skeptic54768, is there anything Yahweh could do that you would deem immoral? If yes, please give me an example. If no, then there’s really no point in discussing this with you. I want you to carefully consider this.

I suppose there is not.

God would automatically know the best way to do things. God's knowledge is infinite and our puny minds are but a drop in the ocean compared to God's knowledge. I can not judge God by claiming that I know more than Him. That's nonsensical.

His creation. His rules. That's just the way it is.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 19, 2013, 01:27:29 AM
So, if god came and tore your wife in half, then lit her remains on fire then threw it in a blender and told you to drink it.
Would you deem it moral?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 19, 2013, 01:28:45 AM

All God's children are equal. This is a Christian principle which was used to end slavery back in 1865. Anyone who is racist and claims to be Christian is simply not following God's Word.


Wrong again, 3 times in 3 sentences. Have you not read the bible or just not understood it? It must be a demon who has made you not understand it.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 19, 2013, 01:29:15 AM
I would rather not exist, than exist and know my parents ditched me because they didn't use a condom.

Well, we can't use your opinion and project it onto other people. That would be unfair.

You realize a majority of Africa's issues stems from the lack of contraception, or are you that ignorant?

Maybe if we stopped stealing the diamonds from their land, they could sell them and become rich. What a thought!


Except gays am i right?

Of course not. Gays are people too. Sin is sin.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 19, 2013, 01:32:03 AM
So, if god came and tore your wife in half, then lit her remains on fire then threw it in a blender and told you to drink it.
Would you deem it moral?

Yes. No fear, remember?

This life is but a blip on the radar compared to eternity.
There's nothing I can do if God did that.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 19, 2013, 01:36:06 AM


Well, we can't use your opinion and project it onto other people. That would be unfair.



Well, we can't use your opinion and project it onto GOD. That would be unfair.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 19, 2013, 01:38:43 AM
Well, we can't use your opinion and project it onto other people. That would be unfair.

The point being that if someone disagrees, for a good reason, your argument is dismissed.

Yes. No fear, remember?

That is fucked up...
Even more fucked up than what bronies do.

Maybe if we stopped stealing the diamonds from their land, they could sell them and become rich. What a thought!

By steal you must mean legally use our vast amounts of money to buy mines and sell them for ourselves.

Of course not. Gays are people too. Sin is sin.

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."  (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Nice one there.
Saying that homosexual sex is bad makes you immoral, just like your religion.

This life is but a blip on the radar compared to eternity.

Its a shame this blip is everything we get, with no afterlife and such. Then again, eternity would be awful, never ever dying.

There's nothing I can do if God did that.

Maybe not drink your wife's remains like a sane person would?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 19, 2013, 01:38:46 AM
Well, we can't use your opinion and project it onto GOD. That would be unfair.

I did no such thing.

I am being accused of being the dangerous one when an atheist admitted they would rather kill than put up for adoption.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 19, 2013, 01:39:37 AM
You are the one who said you would drink your wife's remains after god brutality murdered her...
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: jaimehlers on October 19, 2013, 01:40:25 AM
It's not barbarism. Do you realize how many people get abortions without a second thought? Atheists can not be pro-choice and then argue against God killing children in the womb.

That's a silly contradictory position to hold.
Incorrect.  The pro-choice position is about parents having the right to decide whether to end the life of their own unborn child.  That is not the same as approving of the massacre of hundreds, thousands, maybe even millions of unborn children based on some "higher authority's" decision, whether it's a government or a god.  There is no contradiction involved.

Furthermore, we aren't talking about God simply causing lots of miscarriages, which would be bad enough.  We're talking about God delegating the mass murders of all those mothers and unborn children to his worshipers.  Or rather, religious authority figures giving their blessing to their followers committing said murders, and saying God proclaimed it to them.

To perform on your own, absolutely.
For God to do it, not at all.
This is utter nonsense, because God isn't actually doing it in the quoted scriptures.  He's (presumably) commanding his followers to do it.  In other words, it's humans murdering other humans.  The difference is that when parents decide to have an abortion, they're making a decision that only affects their own family (whether you approve or disapprove, they're not trying to force someone else to have an abortion).  When "God" decides to delegate a massacre such as was described in the Bible, it's his own worshipers inflicting what they think God wants on other people - a heinous, irredeemably evil act.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Just like if you keep a known serial killer locked up in your basement for months and you don't tell the cops and the cops find out about it, you will get in trouble.
But, locking them up in prison is OK.
And how many people have actually imprisoned known serial killers in their basement for months?  Go ahead and look for an example.  Just don't expect me to hold my breath waiting.

Leaving aside the ridiculous use of a serial killer to attempt to justify your arguments (notably, it doesn't), the reason that it's illegal to keep people locked up in your basement is because an individual person doesn't have the right to take away the rights of another when they're under someone else's authority.  In the USA, for example, we have a legal system which makes such decisions, and individuals don't have the right to take that authority for themselves.

Quote from: skeptic54768
The point is that God could have just forgiven us without the sacrifice. But, He willingly went through with the sacrifice as a homage to us. God willfully took part in pain and suffering to be like us. I find that extraordinarily loving.
Too bad he inflicted thousands of years of viciousness, violence, and horror on humanity beforehand, at least according to your theology.  You find it loving that he thought a single staged death and resurrection sufficient to balance the scales?  Reminds me of Marie Antoinette and "let them eat cake".  She thought that was a grand gesture of kindness to the starving people of Paris - but to those starving people who couldn't even afford bread, let alone cake, it was pretty much the final straw.

His creations. His choice.

Does the clay tell the potter what to make?
Humans aren't clay.  Even according to your own theology (which I don't consider true, but this is for the sake of argument), they're the end result of God's work to create them.  They stopped being clay once they became alive.

If I were to create an artificially intelligent computer program that could make decisions on its own, that was self-aware, and that was intelligent, I would then have an obligation to treat it as a person, not as some neat toy to play with or keep on a shelf, or to shut off.  A creator has obligations towards his intelligent, self-aware creations, just as parents have obligations towards their children.

Mothers don't make children. God allows them to be born if it's in His plan.
So what makes you think that God's plan doesn't account for the fact of abortions?  I mean, if he didn't want them to happen, they wouldn't.  This is the problem with making claims about "God's plan".  You aren't privy to any such plan, even assuming it exists.  Who are you to declare that you know better than anyone else what God intends?


Quote from: skeptic54768
How silly. So we will be shutting down all the slaughterhouses?
What's silly is calling them slaughterhouses.  You know what a slaughterhouse actually is?  It's a place where animals are butchered and prepared to be eaten.

That aside, while it's arguable that a developing child might be sentient in the womb at some point (probably fairly late in the development process), actual intelligence doesn't happen until some time after birth.  Newborn infants run on pure instinct, and it takes months for a baby to start recognizing people and start using preliminary language.

That link basically demolishes atheism.
No, it doesn't.  It's someone adding a caption to a picture.  It no more proves anything than someone taking a picture of a cat or a dog and adding text to suggest it's talking.

You must have missed the point.

The babies have never seen mom.
Are they justified in not believing in mom?
When you can prove that they (the fetuses, to use the medical term) actually have beliefs, then you might have a basis for this argument.  Until then, it is you who's missing the point.

It's a human being. Don't devalue the life of a human being.
Unless God says it must die, anyway.  Then again, who made you (plural, everyone who believes as you do) the arbiter of what God says or doesn't say?

Quote from: skeptic54768
Hypothetically, if the babies could think in the womb, would they be justified in a-momism? You know the answer is a big fat "No!" but you can't say it because it is a problem for your position.
Actually, I'm not afraid to say that.  The difference is, there is actual proof that their mother exists.  The real question is whether they'd be justified in a-dadism.  And the answer to that is a big fat "Yes!", because until they're actually born, they have no proof of dad's existence.  Of course, there's an inherent problem for your position.  If they could think in the womb, then communication with them would be possible.  Meaning, it would be possible to give them information, even to let them communicate with their parents somehow.

However, that doesn't happen with this god of yours.  His 'communications' with people are always indirect, generally though someone who claims to be a religious authority.  It would be as if you had a whole host of developing fetuses in the same womb, and one of them claimed to be an authority on "life after birth" even though it had no more experience of that than any of them.  See the problem now?

How would they know they have a mother? Never empirically experienced the mother...
You mean aside from the placenta, and the embryonic fluid, and the rest of the interior of the womb?

My side despises abortion.
Unless God says it's okay, such as by cutting the unborn child out of its womb and dashing it against the rocks.

Womb=universe
Mother=God
The womb is not separate from the mother, so this is a bad example.

Quote from: skeptic54768
babies live in womb, believe in life after birth.
We live in the universe, believe in life after death.

It's a no-brainer.
If it's such a no-brainer, why do you keep coming up with such bad examples to support your argument?  The whole point of a no-brainer is that it is easy for anyone to understand.  Instead, you keep coming up with examples that hurt your argument, such as by trying to differentiate between a mother and a womb (so you can pretend that the mother is a good analogy for God), or by trying to claim that unborn, developing children who have not yet developed any capacity for intelligence have beliefs in the first place.

You been listening to propaganda? I am against the death penalty as well.
That's not the point Nam was making.

Quote from: skeptic54768
To claim that we don't care about the baby after it's born is nonsensical. I care deeply as do many others. What makes you think we don't care about babies after they are born?

Why do you think we want the mother to put the baby up for adoption instead of just killing the baby because it's an inconvenience?
Okay, so where's all the financial and material support given to single mothers who are trying to raise their own children?  Most of them depend on government assistance, or on help from their actual families.  Yet there's almost no support given to them from religious organizations.  There's plenty of rhetoric like this, that it's better to raise the child or give it up for adoption than to have an abortion, but very little in the way of actual assistance.

This is why we seem to be having problems. Being a racist is wrong. All God's children are equal. This is a Christian principle which was used to end slavery back in 1865. Anyone who is racist and claims to be Christian is simply not following God's Word.
No, actually, equality is very scarce in the Bible.  There's a few pithy statements about it in the Gospels, and then you have Paul who basically starts creating those artificial divisions again.  Also, lots and lots and lots of those same artificial divisions in the Old Testament.  Take a look at the rules for non-Hebrew slaves compared to Hebrew ones, for example.

Quote from: skeptic54768
And why do you accuse me of not caring? Adoption over abortion any day of the year.
You mean aside from the fact that you're apparently willing to commit murder if you think God commanded you to?

Anyway, talk is cheap.  Where's your financial contributions to organizations which fund orphanages and the like, and which provide financial assistance to single mothers?  In other words, are you putting your money where your mouth is, or are you a modern-day Pharisee?

Please provide evidence that adoption ruins kids lives.
Ask the kid, "Would you rather be dead or adopted?"
Unless you actually give real assistance to orphanages and single mothers, it's just words.  So, do you?

I suppose there is not.

God would automatically know the best way to do things. God's knowledge is infinite and our puny minds are but a drop in the ocean compared to God's knowledge. I can not judge God by claiming that I know more than Him. That's nonsensical.

His creation. His rules. That's just the way it is.
To quote from a book I've read, just because someone is God's creation doesn't make them God's creature.  A being which has created other self-aware, intelligent beings has an obligation to them if it wants any claim of being good.  If it does not honor that obligation, then it deserves no obedience or respect.

Well, we can't use your opinion and project it onto other people. That would be unfair.
You mean like you've been doing this entire topic?

Quote from: skeptic54768
Maybe if we stopped stealing the diamonds from their land, they could sell them and become rich. What a thought!
Hey, good idea.  Maybe you should go preach to the people in charge of the diamond mines in Africa.  Let me know how that works out for you.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Of course not. Gays are people too. Sin is sin.
Yep, gay people are still people and have the right to make their own decisions.  Unless, of course, they have the temerity to actually have sex with a partner of the same sex.  According to God, in the Old Testament, that was a sin punishable by death.  So what do you think?

Yes. No fear, remember?

This life is but a blip on the radar compared to eternity.
There's nothing I can do if God did that.
I sure hope you tell any woman you are interested in that if God told you to, you'd murder your children, murder her, puree her corpse, and drink it.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: skeptic54768 on October 19, 2013, 01:42:36 AM
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."  (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Nice one there.
Saying that homosexual sex is bad makes you immoral, just like your religion.

First of all, you have no objective moral basis to say it is moral.
Second of all, Leviticus doesn't apply to Christians.
Third of all, the Jews should be killing homosexuals because they don't believe Jesus fulfilled the Law. Since they aren't doing this, we can see how this is evidence that even subconsciously, they know Jesus overturned the Law.

Its a shame this blip is everything we get, with no afterlife and such. Then again, eternity would be awful, never ever dying.

Evidence this life is all we get?

if it's so awful to never die, why get upset about God killing babies?

Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 19, 2013, 01:47:53 AM
First of all, you have no objective moral basis to say it is moral.
Second of all, Leviticus doesn't apply to Christians.
Third of all, the Jews should be killing homosexuals because they don't believe Jesus fulfilled the Law. Since they aren't doing this, we can see how this is evidence that even subconsciously, they know Jesus overturned the Law.

Your kidding right?
Any single person here would agree that killing a homosexual for having sex the way he likes is immoral.

Evidence this life is all we get?

Evidence that there is more, would you kindly?

if it's so awful to never die, why get upset about God killing babies?

Babies will never die? Last time i checked all humans age.
We get upset because you worship a deity who kills innocents like a sadistic monster and yet you say he is the maker of all morals.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 19, 2013, 01:50:34 AM
Well, we can't use your opinion and project it onto GOD. That would be unfair.

I did no such thing.

I am being accused of being the dangerous one when an atheist admitted they would rather kill than put up for adoption.

Yes you did. You said you agree with your god in everything. Your fantasy is that you are your god's hero and everyone else is wrong and led astray by demons. Do you really wonder why everyone can see that you have made up this god for yourself?

skeptic54768, is there anything Yahweh could do that you would deem immoral? If yes, please give me an example. If no, then there’s really no point in discussing this with you. I want you to carefully consider this.

I suppose there is not.

God would automatically know the best way to do things. God's knowledge is infinite and our puny minds are but a drop in the ocean compared to God's knowledge. I can not judge God by claiming that I know more than Him. That's nonsensical.

His creation. His rules. That's just the way it is.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Zankuu on October 19, 2013, 01:56:01 AM
skeptic54768, is there anything Yahweh could do that you would deem immoral? If yes, please give me an example. If no, then there’s really no point in discussing this with you. I want you to carefully consider this.

I suppose there is not.

Alright. Well thanks for the honest answer. I'm bowing out of this thread since there's no point to continue.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 19, 2013, 02:01:00 AM
Well, we can't use your opinion and project it onto GOD. That would be unfair.

I did no such thing.

I am being accused of being the dangerous one when an atheist admitted they would rather kill than put up for adoption.

Is this targeted at me? If so, where did I say that? Or is this your convoluted interpretation of something I said that wasn't in agreement with your idiotic position?

I'm thinking the latter.

I find it funny though that you find abortion wrong when man does it but find it a good thing when your Biblegod  does it. And, according to the Bible, it's killed more fetuses and babies than anyone else, ever. But that's okay because Biblegod  is a good god.

Also, for a person who says that they would murder their child if Biblegod  to, or most likely murder anyone if Biblegod  told you to but we're the dangerous ones because we wouldn't, is a fucked up viewpoint.

You are insane. And I mean that literally.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: jaimehlers on October 19, 2013, 02:02:09 AM
First of all, you have no objective moral basis to say it is moral.
This is nonsense.  You don't need an "objective moral basis" for anything like that, which is good, because no such moral basis exists.  Not even your god provides one, since he changes his mind quite a bit in the Bible.  Not to mention the fact that he doesn't hold himself accountable to the standards he supposedly sets.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Second of all, Leviticus doesn't apply to Christians.
Doesn't it?  How do you know the thing saying that Christians were exempted from Leviticus wasn't put in by demons who wanted Christians to believe that so they'd doom themselves?

Quote from: skeptic54768
Third of all, the Jews should be killing homosexuals because they don't believe Jesus fulfilled the Law. Since they aren't doing this, we can see how this is evidence that even subconsciously, they know Jesus overturned the Law.
Pure sophistry.  Nothing more than a weak attempt to try to 'prove' that your own interpretation of things is true.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Evidence this life is all we get?
Until you provide evidence (real evidence, that's independently verifiable) that there is actually an afterlife, there's no point in trying to disprove it.  It's like trying to disprove that Mordor exists, or Narnia.

Quote from: skeptic54768
if it's so awful to never die, why get upset about God killing babies?
Get it right.  It's getting upset because babies are being murdered by religious fanatics.

----

Also, you should really pay attention to Foxy Freedom.  When you say you're okay with anything your god might tell you to do, it doesn't actually mean that you'd be okay with being told to murder a child, or drink your wife's pureed corpse.  It means you know, subconsciously, that your god would never actually make you do those things, so it's safe to say that you would do anything your god would want you to do - because you wouldn't have to risk following through on something you would refuse to do.  You're projecting your own morality as your god, and trying to make other people abide by it.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 19, 2013, 02:06:46 AM
Is this targeted at me? If so, where did I say that? Or is this your convoluted interpretation of something I said that wasn't in agreement with your idiotic position?

He was directing it at me, and quoted me wrong i might add.

I stated i would rather have been aborted than to live knowing my parents ditched me.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 19, 2013, 02:07:59 AM
jaimehlers,

There's no evidence that Marie Antoinette actually ever said that. Actually, many historians believe she never did. Just something that has been attributed to her over time. Actually, I believe the first mention of that saying was stated in some book back then when Antoinette was 8-10 years old.

-Nam

Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 19, 2013, 02:18:19 AM
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."  (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Nice one there.
Saying that homosexual sex is bad makes you immoral, just like your religion.

First of all, you have no objective moral basis to say it is moral.
Second of all, Leviticus doesn't apply to Christians.
Third of all, the Jews should be killing homosexuals because they don't believe Jesus fulfilled the Law. Since they aren't doing this, we can see how this is evidence that even subconsciously, they know Jesus overturned the Law.

Its a shame this blip is everything we get, with no afterlife and such. Then again, eternity would be awful, never ever dying.

Evidence this life is all we get?

if it's so awful to never die, why get upset about God killing babies?



Wrong. All the books of the Bible pertain to Christians for two simple reasons:

1. All the books of the Bible were chosen by Christians to be in the Bible and
2. Quoting you Matthew yet again, it states that Jesus didn't come to abolish the old law but to FULFILL them

Please, read the damn Bible.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 19, 2013, 02:23:36 AM
Is this targeted at me? If so, where did I say that? Or is this your convoluted interpretation of something I said that wasn't in agreement with your idiotic position?

He was directing it at me, and quoted me wrong i might add.

I stated i would rather have been aborted than to live knowing my parents ditched me.

Oh. Well, since I didn't say it was targeted at me, I will let my comment stand and not retract.

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: jaimehlers on October 19, 2013, 02:30:50 AM
jaimehlers,

There's no evidence that Marie Antoinette actually ever said that. Actually, many historians believe she never did. Just something that has been attributed to her over time. Actually, I believe the first mention of that saying was stated in some book back then when Antoinette was 8-10 years old.

-Nam
It's certainly possible.  Either way, it was believed to have been said by her and probably provoked a lot of unrest.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 19, 2013, 02:48:55 AM
What do you mean by judge, exactly?  Do you mean in the sense of judging whether a belief is true or not?

Mocking God
Calling us stupid and mentally ill
Calling us dangerous
Calling our beliefs a joke, fairy tale, superstition

very offensive stuff.





No. it is very dangerous to follow your own understanding. This is a demonic doctrine. It's even written in the Bible, "Lean not on your own understanding." Demons want you to believe that you know it all and you don't need God.


It was targeted at me too because I pointed out that he enjoyed calling other people dangerous but does not like me to say the same about him. He has not admitted he called other people dangerous but here is the quote. Do you still deny you call other people dangerous, skeptic?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Anfauglir on October 19, 2013, 04:05:59 AM
Of the 2 billion professed Christians on Earth, we must realize that only about 1% of those Christians are actual followers of Christ.

A lot of people are deceived and don't even realize they are deceived.

I agree with you 100% about that.  Couple questions though.

If "A lot of people are deceived and don't even realize they are deceived", how do YOU know for certain YOU are not deceived?

If it is possible to be positive how one can not be deceived, would you care to explain exactly how?  You would be doing everyone a great service if you could demonstrate conclusively how NOT to be deceived.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Anfauglir on October 19, 2013, 04:11:42 AM
I am being accused of being the dangerous one....

Yes, you are.  Any answer to this post?  Do you have the intellectual honesty to admit that your own words are the ones that make you seem dangerous?

The child is God's child. If God tells me to give give Him one of his children, then I will.

lol I am not dangerous. I find it funny that atheists seem to describe Christians as dangerous.

Yeah.  Absolutely hilarious.  I can't imagine why we atheists would ever think that Christians are dangerous.

54768 , you've just told me that if you thought god wanted you to kill my child, you would kill them.  Can you honestly not see how that makes me believe you are dangerous?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Jonny-UK on October 19, 2013, 04:55:08 AM
This is why we seem to be having problems. Being a racist is wrong. All God's children are equal. This is a Christian principle which was used to end slavery back in 1865. Anyone who is racist and claims to be Christian is simply not following God's Word.
Funny then that jesus did nothing to end slavery when he was supposed to have been on earth.
It was humans that have reasoned and developed to see that slavery is wrong, just as it is wrong to kill gays or adulterers. We know the bible was written by man with the attitudes of the time but society has moved on for the better.
If only you could get your head out of it.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Graybeard on October 19, 2013, 06:07:00 AM
Materialism is gaining the world by losing your spirit.
Spiritualism is gaining wealth by losing the world.

You'll soon have enough material from that homespun philosophy to make yourself a suit.

The thing is that believers chant out meaningless phrases all the time. They do not understand what they are saying but "They sound nice."

Neither definition appears in Merriam-Webster. Can you explain why that might be?
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Add Homonym on October 19, 2013, 09:04:17 AM
You'll soon have enough material from that homespun philosophy to make yourself a suit.

The thing is that believers chant out meaningless phrases all the time. They do not understand what they are saying but "They sound nice."

Neither definition appears in Merriam-Webster. Can you explain why that might be?

The first statement could be generally true, but the second one doesn't float, because to gain any spirit, you have to interact with people in the world, and it presupposes a reward in heaven, which is not proven.

Buddhist monks also seem to believe this, but they just sit around on their arse.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: Nam on October 19, 2013, 09:48:03 AM
Materialism is gaining the world by losing your spirit.
Spiritualism is gaining wealth by losing the world.

You'll soon have enough material from that homespun philosophy to make yourself a suit.

The thing is that believers chant out meaningless phrases all the time. They do not understand what they are saying but "They sound nice."

Neither definition appears in Merriam-Webster. Can you explain why that might be?

Not a Christian Dictionary?

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: neopagan on October 19, 2013, 10:22:05 AM
Materialism is gaining the world by losing your spirit.
Spiritualism is gaining wealth by losing the world.

You'll soon have enough material from that homespun philosophy to make yourself a suit.

The thing is that believers chant out meaningless phrases all the time. They do not understand what they are saying but "They sound nice."

Neither definition appears in Merriam-Webster. Can you explain why that might be?

Not a Christian Dictionary?

;)

-Nam

Demons messed with the definitions in the dictionaries
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 19, 2013, 10:28:46 AM
I think we need to remember this is the guy who stated he would drink his wife's charred and blended remains if god told him to...
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: neopagan on October 19, 2013, 11:15:02 AM
^^^ Skep, could you add that to your signature line?  If not, I think I may add it to mine - with full attribution to you, of course.
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 19, 2013, 11:23:51 AM
*girly squeal*

I have never had someone add a post of mine to their sig...
Do it, please.

*passes out*
Title: Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
Post by: jynnan tonnix on October 19, 2013, 12:08:19 PM
Of the 2 billion professed Christians on Earth, we must realize that only about 1% of those Christians are actual followers of Christ.

A lot of people are deceived and don't even realize they are deceived.

I agree with you 100% about that.  Couple questions though.

If "A lot of people are deceived and don't even realize they are deceived", how do YOU know for certain YOU are not deceived?

If it is possible to be positive how one can not be deceived, would you care to explain exactly how?  You would be doing everyone a great service if you could demonstrate conclusively how NOT to be deceived.

And, another question/comment... Based on the assumption that your figures have anything to do with reality here...If god actually cares about redemptio