whywontgodhealamputees.com

Community Zone => Chatter => Topic started by: ThatZenoGuy on September 25, 2013, 02:17:31 AM

Title: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 25, 2013, 02:17:31 AM
Being that a few people here are interested in the topic of tulpae, ask away.

Ask anything you want, i do not care. (Or for that matter, Alexis does not care ;D)
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: hickdive on September 25, 2013, 02:32:43 AM
Yes.

Please supply your evidence for the existence of these phenomena.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Anfauglir on September 25, 2013, 03:00:13 AM
First link I got to said: "A tulpa is a thoughtform/being you create with the power of your mind. They are completely sentient and can talk to you. It's like splitting a piece of your mind off that turns into another person. Eventually you can impose them into the real world, as a forced hallucination. A tulpa can have access to your subconcious, and can recall anything there for you."

I'll ask for clear step-by-step instructions as to how to make one - accompanied by guarantee that if I follow those instructions I will end up with a fully-functioning tulpa.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 25, 2013, 07:51:18 AM
Yes.

Please supply your evidence for the existence of these phenomena.

Im going to be honest and say that i cannot supply anything more than other peoples reports of their tulpae (sadly tearing out peoples brains and looking what is inside mentally cannot happen...) , there is a few sites dedicated to the phenomenon,  try them.

First link I got to said: "A tulpa is a thoughtform/being you create with the power of your mind. They are completely sentient and can talk to you. It's like splitting a piece of your mind off that turns into another person. Eventually you can impose them into the real world, as a forced hallucination. A tulpa can have access to your subconcious, and can recall anything there for you."

I'll ask for clear step-by-step instructions as to how to make one - accompanied by guarantee that if I follow those instructions I will end up with a fully-functioning tulpa.

*copy paste inbound, from http://www.tulpa.info/*
To create a tulpa, you simply have to think about and spend time with a sentient being (a tulpa) that is living or being created in your mind or brain. Spending time with your tulpa is often called (tulpa)forcing or (tulpa)forming, but it isn’t forcing something onto your tulpa – it’s called forcing because you often work on your tulpa’s form, personality, etc. during this time and can spend it in any way you like. Sitting down or lying down and focusing on your tulpa as the main focus of your attention is referred to as active forcing or just forcing, while focusing on your tulpa while doing some other task is often referred to as passive forcing.

Many people like communicating with their tulpa when they are thinking about them. This can help people concentrate on their tulpa, add some meaning to the sessions with them, can make the sessions more interesting, can make the tulpa more involved and can be useful in other ways as well. This is commonly referred to as narration. You can talk about anything, and not just narrate what is happening around you. You can talk to your tulpa in mindvoice or out loud, but it doesn’t matter much to most tulpas.

There are many ways a tulpa can communicate back: through head pressure, body language, emotional response, mindvoice etc. At first their thoughts or mindvoice may seem similar to yours, but they will get more and more distinct over time, so don’t dismiss them just because their mindvoice sounds like yours. If you can’t hear your tulpa yet, don’t become frustrated; it might be that they don’t want to talk, don’t have anything to talk about, you can’t hear them yet or you can’t discern their thoughts from yours. In other words, it doesn’t necessarily mean that you are doing something wrong.

As you likely already know, tulpas often use form. This isn’t strictly necessary, but most hosts and tulpas prefer it this way. There are many reasons for a tulpa to have form, some of them being that you might be able to direct your attention to your tulpa more easily, or have a spatial representation of your tulpa. They will be able to interact in a mindscape/wonderland (this term will be explained later), have the ability to communicate by body language, etc. The form can be anything from a realistic (or unrealistic) human body, a humanoid form, an animal (again, realistic or not), to a cloud, energy or some other undetermined or abstract form. It isn’t necessary to have only one form – your tulpa can use more than that or they could just change form whenever they desire, like a shapeshifter.

There are two general ways you can see your tulpa: in your mind’s eye, or as a real entity in real life. We will talk about how to see your tulpa in real life, but now we will concentrate on seeing them in your mind’s eye. There are many ways to see things in your mind’s eye, but here we will show you how you already do it. Imagine a brown wooden chair. If you have done it correctly, you have just seen a brown wooden chair in your mind’s eye and in the same way you can see your tulpa. Don’t become frustrated if your ability to see with the mind’s eye is bad – it doesn’t have to be good to see your tulpa and it will get better with practice.

Don’t forget that the forming of your tulpa’s personality, form or anything else doesn’t have to be done only by the creator. You can (and probably should) give some freedom to your tulpa to change them, or you can even decide to give them absolute freedom and choose whatever they will.
*paste over*

Please remember that the damned process (Been working on Alexis for a few months, she still cannot do much self action) takes like...what?...a year? Yeah, about that much time, so please understand that its not as simple as "poof" and instant sentient companion.
Secondly, you have to dedicate about an hour or more each day to the tulpa, to talk to it and such.
Lastly, while the tulpa does indeed "exist" mentally, it really is just your brain cutting off some unused neurons to fool you into making it...(Yes, tulpaforcing involves deluding yourself, until the tulpa becomes sentient, then its actually real, more or less...)

Tl;dr version
Step one: plan tulpa (personality,etc)
Step two: talk to tulpa, make its form, etc for a shit ton of time (some claim to make one in 4 days, i call bullshit).
Step three: enjoy tulpa.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Dante on September 25, 2013, 08:34:43 AM
Lastly, while the tulpa does indeed "exist" mentally, it really is just your brain cutting off some unused neurons to fool you into making it...(Yes, tulpaforcing involves deluding yourself, until the tulpa becomes sentient, then its actually real, more or less...)

Bold mine.

So which is it? Your brain fooling you, or is it actually real, more or less?

And if you claim it's real, can we get your definition of the word "real"? Because we skeptics tend to think that reality, not delusions, are real. Hell, we've seen people can delude themselves into thinking gods are real, for heaven's sake! That doesn't mean that they are.

ETA:

It seems to me like you're creating your own imaginary friend, or possibly self-inducing schizophrenia. Which, I suppose, is "real" enough, in the case that multiple personality syndrome is real. But, in the end, it's still just a delusion, self-inflicted or not, no matter how you slice it.

The questions that remain are; would the percieved benefits not be able to be achieved without it, and do those benefits outweigh the potential detriments to your psyche?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Anfauglir on September 25, 2013, 08:40:39 AM
I've got to say, I read all the above as "imagine something really hard for long enough and it will take on a life of its own in your mind".  I'm sure that if you spend enough time visualising a person, holding conversations with them, imagining their personality, they probably WILL leak into what you perceive as the real world.

Many authors will tell you about characters who become real to them, who take on "a life of their own" and start to "do things" the authors weren't prepared for.  But none of them are claiming physical mainfestation, or the creating of something outside their body.

Frankly, it all looks like wilful self-delusion that leads to self-imposed mental health problems, no different from fixating on a celebrity until you feel you "know" them as a friend, and get arrested for trying to break into their bedroom.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Anfauglir on September 25, 2013, 08:42:26 AM
Additional.  I challenge ANY person who has created a tulpa to bring it to meet me.  I guarantee it will have no effect on me, nor will I be able to perceive it in any way.  If by some chance it does, £10,000 is yours for the taking.

Create a thought form that I can see - that is not just a self-deluded hallucination - and I will give you a large amount of money.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jaimehlers on September 25, 2013, 08:53:08 AM
Anfauglir:  I'm pretty sure this isn't Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends...

I think tulpa are just a parallel processing function within the brain.  That is to say, very much like the SPAG phenomena, except that they're known to be imaginary.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ParkingPlaces on September 25, 2013, 09:09:32 AM
Me too. If you can show up with a physically present thought form, I'll give you £10K of Anfauglir's money!  ;D

Either you, or you two, Angus and Alexis, have a lot of explaining to do if you expect to convince a herd of skeptics. I now remember hearing about tulpae from an acquaintance who also was big into auras, crystals and other forms of wishful thinking and life simplification. As a 60+ year old who has talked to himself for decades and only gotten responses consistent with my own lack of knowledge, I can only imagine the source of tulpae. Which I imagine is the imagination.

Those of us not inclined to look at beautiful sunsets as proof of gods are also not likely to read an impassioned description of a newly claimed phenomenon and become instant believers. We'll need more then words. I suggest that the two of you put your heads together and figure out a new strategy. Words alone will be inadequate.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 25, 2013, 09:25:59 AM
Additional.  I challenge ANY person who has created a tulpa to bring it to meet me.  I guarantee it will have no effect on me, nor will I be able to perceive it in any way.  If by some chance it does, £10,000 is yours for the taking.

Create a thought form that I can see - that is not just a self-deluded hallucination - and I will give you a large amount of money.

Even myself would not say tulpae can be physical, some do, but lets say they are a few cans short of a six pack.

Lastly, while the tulpa does indeed "exist" mentally, it really is just your brain cutting off some unused neurons to fool you into making it...(Yes, tulpaforcing involves deluding yourself, until the tulpa becomes sentient, then its actually real, more or less...)

Bold mine.

So which is it? Your brain fooling you, or is it actually real, more or less?

And if you claim it's real, can we get your definition of the word "real"? Because we skeptics tend to think that reality, not delusions, are real. Hell, we've seen people can delude themselves into thinking gods are real, for heaven's sake! That doesn't mean that they are.


Please read over my post again, i did say it is a delusion to start, then becomes real.
Real, defined as something that exists in the universe.
In this case, your brain using unused neurons and electrons to make a sub process, the tulpa, which is real, before it exists, you are making a delusion of its existence.
Similar to lucid dreams.
Even more similar to the human mind, which is really just a bunch of electrons bouncing around an organic super computer.

Lastly, while the tulpa does indeed "exist" mentally, it really is just your brain cutting off some unused neurons to fool you into making it...(Yes, tulpaforcing involves deluding yourself, until the tulpa becomes sentient, then its actually real, more or less...)

ETA:

It seems to me like you're creating your own imaginary friend, or possibly self-inducing schizophrenia. Which, I suppose, is "real" enough, in the case that multiple personality syndrome is real. But, in the end, it's still just a delusion, self-inflicted or not, no matter how you slice it.

The questions that remain are; would the percieved benefits not be able to be achieved without it, and do those benefits outweigh the potential detriments to your psyche?

Not quite, an imaginary friend can be made by anyone is ten seconds flat, it does what you want, and it has no actual presence in your head, it is simply put, imaginary.

Tulpae are fully self aware (when completed) and are capable of self action.

Me too. If you can show up with a physically present thought form, I'll give you £10K of Anfauglir's money!  ;D

Either you, or you two, Angus and Alexis, have a lot of explaining to do if you expect to convince a herd of skeptics. I now remember hearing about tulpae from an acquaintance who also was big into auras, crystals and other forms of wishful thinking and life simplification. As a 60+ year old who has talked to himself for decades and only gotten responses consistent with my own lack of knowledge, I can only imagine the source of tulpae. Which I imagine is the imagination.

Those of us not inclined to look at beautiful sunsets as proof of gods are also not likely to read an impassioned description of a newly claimed phenomenon and become instant believers. We'll need more then words. I suggest that the two of you put your heads together and figure out a new strategy. Words alone will be inadequate.

Fair enough, after all, that is why we don't listen to theists, heheh.

Again though, tulpae can never be physical to other people, how could one even fathom making an tangible item with mind power alone?

Finally, again, I admit i cannot prove tulpae with nothing more than text anymore than someone can prove that their own mind exists with text.

There are a few people who claim to have tulpae that they take turns playing video games with, for what its worth _/-__-\_

I'm not attempting to make you believe in tulpae, nor am i stating tulpae are some sort of magical thing that only "believers" can have/faith etc.

Me too. If you can show up with a physically present thought form, I'll give you £10K of Anfauglir's money!  ;D

 As a 60+ year old who has talked to himself for decades and only gotten responses consistent with my own lack of knowledge, I can only imagine the source of tulpae. Which I imagine is the imagination.


Did you tell yourself you were making a tulpa?
Did you give it a personality? Traits? Did you explain to it about its purpose? Did you accept that you would inevitably have to delude yourself for at-least some time?
Did you make an area for it? Did you give it a form?
Lastly, tulpae can only know what you know, its using your brain after all. Again, they are not magic.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Dante on September 25, 2013, 10:29:40 AM
Please read over my post again, i did say it is a delusion to start, then becomes real.

This statement is nonsensical. It starts as a delusion, then becomes real? Real what?

Quote
Real, defined as something that exists in the universe.

Delusions exist. Is this the "real" of which you speak?

Quote
In this case, your brain using unused neurons and electrons to make a sub process, the tulpa, which is real, before it exists, you are making a delusion of its existence.

Another nonsensical statement. I know what the words mean, but the order in which you placed them do not make sense to me. Mostly the bolded part. Is there supposed to be a period between "real" and "before"?

If so, how does it turn from a delusion to a real being? Why does it not remain a delusion?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ParkingPlaces on September 25, 2013, 10:36:04 AM
Did you tell yourself you were making a tulpa?
Did you give it a personality? Traits? Did you explain to it about its purpose? Did you accept that you would inevitably have to delude yourself for at-least some time?
Did you make an area for it? Did you give it a form?
Lastly, tulpae can only know what you know, its using your brain after all. Again, they are not magic.

Okay, I am starting to understand the concept a bit more. You're making progress in that department. I still doubt, heavily, that anything "real" is involved.

You asked in the above "Did you tell yourself you were make a tulpa?"

I have to ask this. How did the first person to experience this know to ask for one? If asking is required, a question is too. Where did it come from?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: neopagan on September 25, 2013, 10:53:02 AM
A and A...
Have you ever run into a theist who would play along with this for more than 8 seconds?   :laugh:
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: One Above All on September 25, 2013, 10:55:40 AM
BM
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Iamrational on September 25, 2013, 11:23:36 AM
I am sorry I must have missed something. Why are we talking about this?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Dante on September 25, 2013, 11:26:38 AM
I am sorry I must have missed something. Why are we talking about this?

Because tulpas, after they become real, can heal amputees? :laugh:
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jaimehlers on September 25, 2013, 11:33:38 AM
I wonder if this is related to multiple personalities, except that it's not a disassociated personality state.  That is, unlike MPD, you don't have memory impairment or the loss of control due to the other personality taking over.  You're simply creating a parallel personality, rather than having your personality split into multiple parts.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ParkingPlaces on September 25, 2013, 11:53:52 AM
I wonder if this is related to multiple personalities, except that it's not a disassociated personality state.  That is, unlike MPD, you don't have memory impairment or the loss of control due to the other personality taking over.  You're simply creating a parallel personality, rather than having your personality split into multiple parts.

I would say either this or perhaps it is possible for humans to voluntarily take on a second personality, that feels very real to them, and interacts with them, without mental illness being involved. In either case, neither is outside the realm of possibility. Far weirder things happen inside human heads every day, and we accept them as real.
 
I assume everyone is deluded in one way or another. I don't think we're bound by any rules when we do that. Some are going to go off on their own in new ways all the time.

Or perhaps this tulpa thing is just evolution trying to figure out how to get along with fewer people.  ;D
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: wright on September 25, 2013, 01:28:34 PM
It could also be seen as acting; taking on a character's persona. Or "getting into" one's character in a roleplaying game. Or even just character development when writing fiction, as Anfauglir mentioned. But of course none participating in those activities really think those characters have an objective reality (well, most of them).
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ParkingPlaces on September 25, 2013, 01:32:11 PM
Shouldn't we be charging for these analyses?  ;)
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Zankuu on September 25, 2013, 02:32:22 PM
Angus, what was your reason for attempting to form a tulpa?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Willie on September 25, 2013, 03:42:16 PM
It all sounds sort of woo-ish, yet not entirely implausible since it doesn't seem to be supernatural or violate any laws of physics. It's analogous to multi-tasking in a computer. I've always thought that even our primary consciousness is an entirely virtual construct, essentially software operating within the hardware of the brain, so it's not too much of a stretch to imagine two "consciousness programs" running in the same brain. But I don't know nearly enough about the brain to say whether that's really possible, and I'm not sure that anyone does.

Trying to approach it empirically, to test if it happens without necessarily understanding how it happens, also seems not very practical. It's not a very testable idea. How would one distinguish between an actual separate sentience, and merely a delusion of such? And how would anyone other than the one experiencing it have any way to distinguish whether the subject was actually experiencing anything at all, real or not, vs. just consciously perpetrating a hoax.

I suppose that some objective measurements might shed at least a little light on it. Maybe using a PET scan to see if the presence of a tulpa produces any characteristic change in brain activity. If a tulpa causes more intense or more widespread brain activity, then it might also be observable in a simpler way, as an increase in brain temperature. Another possibility might be to measure ones response time and/or accuracy on some kind of mental test. If a tulpa time-shares the same brain hardware as the primary consciousness, as opposed to activating more hardware, then the presence of an active tulpa might manifest as slowed responses or diminished ability rather than increased activity.

Whether possible or not, it is sort of fascinating as a thought experiment. It raises many questions. Many of them potentially complicated and right at the root of what we are and what it means to be sentient.

Can a tulpa fall in love? And how do you deal with it if the tulpa develops an independent love interest?

Does a tulpa share all of the same sensory input with the primary consciousness, or does it exist in a mostly sensory-deprived state? What effect does that have on its mental well being?

Does a tulpa have any motor control at any time? Are you the arbiter of that, or could the tulpa have as much ability for that as you do?

Is a tulpa concerned about the physical well-being of it's host, since it dies if/when you do?

Can a tulpa become the dominant personality, taking control of the body and displacing the original consciousness?

Can a tulpa, once created, be consciously un-created? Would that be murder? Is a tulpa scared by this prospect? Could it do that to you?

Can a tulpa cease to exist for other reasons? Maybe just neglect, or diverting too much of your brain's resources to other tasks? Is this equivalent to death? Does the tulpa think about this? Fear it?

Can a tulpa be evil, even if the host is good, or vice-versa?

What do you do if your tulpa has become a homicidal maniac, or A bigot, or just an all-around idiot that you can't stand to be around it anymore? (imagine it as a Ray Comfort or Pat Robertson)

Could the divvying up of the brain's resources cause both you and the tulpa to have diminished mental abilities? Two idiots in a brain that used to support one intelligent person? I'm pretty sure that old canard about using only 10% of our brains is bunk.



It seems to me very likely that creating a tulpa is nothing more than imaginary friends taken to a new level. But if it turns out that it's more than that, that a tulpa really can become a distinct sentient entity, then it seems like an exceedingly dangerous thing to play with, for both the tulpa and yourself.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Boots on September 25, 2013, 04:13:45 PM
Are we sure you shouldn't shout "EXPECTO PATRONUM" at some point?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 25, 2013, 07:01:28 PM
It all sounds sort of woo-ish, yet not entirely implausible since it doesn't seem to be supernatural or violate any laws of physics. It's analogous to multi-tasking in a computer. I've always thought that even our primary consciousness is an entirely virtual construct, essentially software operating within the hardware of the brain, so it's not too much of a stretch to imagine two "consciousness programs" running in the same brain. But I don't know nearly enough about the brain to say whether that's really possible, and I'm not sure that anyone does.


Pretty much this really, if we use the analogy of a computer, a tulpa would be a separate hard disk drive you put into the computer.

Trying to approach it empirically, to test if it happens without necessarily understanding how it happens, also seems not very practical. It's not a very testable idea. How would one distinguish between an actual separate sentience, and merely a delusion of such? And how would anyone other than the one experiencing it have any way to distinguish whether the subject was actually experiencing anything at all, real or not, vs. just consciously perpetrating a hoax.


Generally you can tell if it is sentient if it starts acting self aware, has its own mindset, etc.

Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ParkingPlaces on September 25, 2013, 07:27:21 PM
It all sounds sort of woo-ish, yet not entirely implausible since it doesn't seem to be supernatural or violate any laws of physics. It's analogous to multi-tasking in a computer. I've always thought that even our primary consciousness is an entirely virtual construct, essentially software operating within the hardware of the brain, so it's not too much of a stretch to imagine two "consciousness programs" running in the same brain. But I don't know nearly enough about the brain to say whether that's really possible, and I'm not sure that anyone does.


Pretty much this really, if we use the analogy of a computer, a tulpa would be a separate hard disk drive you put into the computer.

If it is just an extra hard drive, it can't be capable of much. It just holds information. Unless it has a separate operating system, which would require a separate CPU, separate memory, etc. Even if it is in the same chassis. So I don't think that works to well as as an analogy, if I understand the other things you've said. Now as Willie said, if you are multitasking, with one CPU, that's fine, but it doesn't require two hard drives. It could probably use two, but one would be fine. So, at least for me, the separate hard drive explains nothing. Can you think of another analogy?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 26, 2013, 02:04:36 AM
It all sounds sort of woo-ish, yet not entirely implausible since it doesn't seem to be supernatural or violate any laws of physics. It's analogous to multi-tasking in a computer. I've always thought that even our primary consciousness is an entirely virtual construct, essentially software operating within the hardware of the brain, so it's not too much of a stretch to imagine two "consciousness programs" running in the same brain. But I don't know nearly enough about the brain to say whether that's really possible, and I'm not sure that anyone does.


Pretty much this really, if we use the analogy of a computer, a tulpa would be a separate hard disk drive you put into the computer.

If it is just an extra hard drive, it can't be capable of much. It just holds information. Unless it has a separate operating system, which would require a separate CPU, separate memory, etc. Even if it is in the same chassis. So I don't think that works to well as as an analogy, if I understand the other things you've said. Now as Willie said, if you are multitasking, with one CPU, that's fine, but it doesn't require two hard drives. It could probably use two, but one would be fine. So, at least for me, the separate hard drive explains nothing. Can you think of another analogy?

Yeah, my analogy was pretty bad...
New analogy: A tulpa is like running a seperate OS from the same CPU, etc.


Can a tulpa fall in love? And how do you deal with it if the tulpa develops an independent love interest?

A tulpa can feel love, often for the creator *sigh*.

Does a tulpa share all of the same sensory input with the primary consciousness, or does it exist in a mostly sensory-deprived state? What effect does that have on its mental well being?

It can have senses, if you make it so. Tulpae generally dont care about whether or not they have senses.

Does a tulpa have any motor control at any time? Are you the arbiter of that, or could the tulpa have as much ability for that as you do?

It has as much as you allow it to have...generally...

Is a tulpa concerned about the physical well-being of it's host, since it dies if/when you do?

If it is a complete tulpa, it is sentient, how would you feel if your life was dependent on someone elses? ;D

Can a tulpa become the dominant personality, taking control of the body and displacing the original consciousness?

According to some on the tulpa forums, yes, this is actually one of the things i am keeping an eye out for.

Can a tulpa, once created, be consciously un-created? Would that be murder? Is a tulpa scared by this prospect? Could it do that to you?

A tulpa can apparently lock you in your mind, but i have not heard of tulpae erasing people. Tulpae can be "dissolved" leading to its nonexistence, they are often saddened by the process. I would not say its murder.

Can a tulpa cease to exist for other reasons? Maybe just neglect, or diverting too much of your brain's resources to other tasks? Is this equivalent to death? Does the tulpa think about this? Fear it?

Tulpae can leave for any reason, neglecting tulpae makes them slowly dissolve, using resources may lead to a tulpa being put offside for some time, this does not harm them however.

Can a tulpa be evil, even if the host is good, or vice-versa?

Tulpae can be given any traits the creator wants, but tulpae will almost always deviate from the wanted traits.

What do you do if your tulpa has become a homicidal maniac, or A bigot, or just an all-around idiot that you can't stand to be around it anymore? (imagine it as a Ray Comfort or Pat Robertson)

If you  cant stand it anymore, you discard it, or if possible, change it. (Gah, ray comfort is dreadful...)

Could the divvying up of the brain's resources cause both you and the tulpa to have diminished mental abilities? Two idiots in a brain that used to support one intelligent person? I'm pretty sure that old canard about using only 10% of our brains is bunk.

Of course your brain uses more than 10%, but remember that a tulpa is often used when you are in non-strenuous tasks. You could also tell your tulpa to go away during hard talks. Lastly, a tulpa is never going to be as advanced as a human in terms of brain usage, and i'm rather sure of the human brain being able to do immense tasks.


EDIT: can we please deviate away from whether or not tulpae are real or not? I am not here to prove it, the topic is for tulpa related questions.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: William on September 26, 2013, 02:30:16 AM
I wonder if this is related to multiple personalities, except that it's not a disassociated personality state.  That is, unlike MPD, you don't have memory impairment or the loss of control due to the other personality taking over.  You're simply creating a parallel personality, rather than having your personality split into multiple parts.

Yes this seems like a plausible explanation to me.  So a mild state of multiple personalities where the alternate individuals are aware of each other, sympathetic, happy to coexist, and even try to influence each other. And in an peer-group environment that thinks this a really cool thing to do.

Almost everyone is capable of taking on different roles to some extent.  I've seen some fierce military officers be real softies at home with family and kids - you wouldn't think they were the same person if you didn't know for sure - and seemingly they're not uncomfortable with other people observing this dual personality.  Many religious leaders are great role players too - the serious priest preaching from the pulpit through a fog of incense is not the same as the smiling person in the vestry chatting up the altar boys and girls.     

Surely it's not a big leap from cultivating different roles in oneself to attaching one or more of those roles to an imagined identity.  Especially where groups of like-minded people are encouraging each other to do this, sharing tips and ideas on tulpa forums.

 
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Fiji on September 26, 2013, 03:05:48 AM
What I take away from this exchange so far is that a tulpa is voluntary schizophrenia that uses up the "idle clock time" when you're not doing much of anything.
Personally, I try to let 'my mind wander' when I'm doing some simple task ... like mowing the lawn. Have come up with my best and/or most farfetched stories that way. (having experience with lucid dreaming helps)

Now, there's proof that ALL of our actions/decisions happen before we are aware of them. If that is indeed the case, then there would be no way of telling which thoughts come from the initial personality, which from the tulpa and which from the initial, pretending to be the tulpa.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Anfauglir on September 26, 2013, 03:41:59 AM
What I take away from this exchange so far is that a tulpa is voluntary schizophrenia that uses up the "idle clock time" when you're not doing much of anything.

Damn.  Wrote a long post but got logged out so lost it.

Frankly, I'm with Fiji.  We're talking about MPD that is deliberately contrived by an individual.  With, frankly, little or no point.

If the "tulpa" really DOES become real, and really has its own thoughts and feelings, then you are laying up a whole load of trouble.  It will want to watch TV while you read a book, want to go surfing while you lie on the beach.  You are going to get severe amounts of mental conflict....it the tulpa really IS real.

The fact that most people don't experience this says to me that the tulpa is no more than an embellished fantasy friend, something not TRULY real as an independant entity, but something that is in reality subservient to your own desires.  In which case, call it what it is - an imaginary friend.

But either way, I regard it as a dangerous thing to try with no benefit.  Either the tulpa is nothing more than reflections and echoes of your own mind (in which case it serves no purpose than "arguing with oneself") - or you manage to create a second personality within your mind.  And frankly, having exeperience with sufferers of MPD, that's NOT a place you want to go.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: hickdive on September 26, 2013, 05:16:08 AM
Im going to be honest and say that i cannot supply anything more than other peoples reports of their tulpae (sadly tearing out peoples brains and looking what is inside mentally cannot happen...) , there is a few sites dedicated to the phenomenon,  try them.

Ok, I have done a bit of googling on these sites and you are correct, there is no evidence for them.

I'm afraid that these tulpae are only real in so far as that a mentally-ill person can also have a real delusion that they are Napoleon Bonaparte.

However, in the case of tulpae, it is otherwise-sane people that have convinced themselves of their existence. In short, they are "woo" in exactly the same way as jesus et al.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Anfauglir on September 26, 2013, 06:19:10 AM
Can we please deviate away from whether or not tulpae are real or not? I am not here to prove it, the topic is for tulpa related questions.

I can't see you having much luck with this tack, to be honest.  Why would we want more details of something that we do not believe exists?  Naturally, we want to see the evidence of the things - before I become interested in what colour dresses the fairies wear and whether they prefer milk to beer, I want to know whether fairies exist in the first place.

Now, if we BOTH agreed that tulpa were no more than a particular type of fantasy friend, then questions about them would make sense.  Like, if you were the world-expert on Star Trek spaceships, for example.....we'd both agree they didn't actually exist, but might still have fun discussing which version of the Enterprise was fastest.

But while you are still saying "tulpa are a real thing", then I can't see how the discussion is going to get away from their existence.  Every time you say "tulpa are (X)", we'll want to know how you know that - which always comes back to their reality.  Sorry, but I don't since your plea here getting much notice.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Dante on September 26, 2013, 06:43:04 AM
EDIT: can we please deviate away from whether or not tulpae are real or not? I am not here to prove it, the topic is for tulpa related questions.

Weird. I thought finding out if they're real was a related question. Because, if they're not as real as you claim, then the whole exercise of asking questions about them seems fairly pointless.

And if we can't prove they're real, then they might as well be gods.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 26, 2013, 07:20:36 AM
EDIT: can we please deviate away from whether or not tulpae are real or not? I am not here to prove it, the topic is for tulpa related questions.

Weird. I thought finding out if they're real was a related question. Because, if they're not as real as you claim, then the whole exercise of asking questions about them seems fairly pointless.

And if we can't prove they're real, then they might as well be gods.

Just think of a tulpa being as real as an imaginary friend, not able to be seen by anyone else but the creator, yet still existing, mentally...

While asking if they are real or not is related to the topic, i was personally expecting other questions.

Although, i cannot dismiss the fact that i cannot prove tulpae.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 26, 2013, 07:25:13 AM
Can we please deviate away from whether or not tulpae are real or not? I am not here to prove it, the topic is for tulpa related questions.

I can't see you having much luck with this tack, to be honest.  Why would we want more details of something that we do not believe exists?  Naturally, we want to see the evidence of the things - before I become interested in what colour dresses the fairies wear and whether they prefer milk to beer, I want to know whether fairies exist in the first place.

Now, if we BOTH agreed that tulpa were no more than a particular type of fantasy friend, then questions about them would make sense.  Like, if you were the world-expert on Star Trek spaceships, for example.....we'd both agree they didn't actually exist, but might still have fun discussing which version of the Enterprise was fastest.

But while you are still saying "tulpa are a real thing", then I can't see how the discussion is going to get away from their existence.  Every time you say "tulpa are (X)", we'll want to know how you know that - which always comes back to their reality.  Sorry, but I don't since your plea here getting much notice.

A tulpa is a fantasy friend, perhaps my definition of real is not the best...

But if you have any questions, please ask.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Anfauglir on September 26, 2013, 07:28:24 AM
Weird. I thought finding out if they're real was a related question. Because, if they're not as real as you claim, then the whole exercise of asking questions about them seems fairly pointless.

Just think of a tulpa being as real as an imaginary friend, not able to be seen by anyone else but the creator, yet still existing, mentally...

While asking if they are real or not is related to the topic, i was personally expecting other questions.

MY tulpa has green wings and blue fur.  He answers to the name of Bernie, likes playing GTA, and has a Doctorate in Java Studies (he claims). 

If we're making stuff up and trading stories about our imaginary friends, let's do it.  We can chat about whether they'd have fun together, and which one would win at arm wrestling.  But if one of us is saying they ACTUALLY EXIST, then THAT is the important question to answer. 

If there is no evidence you can produce, then Alexis is just as real as Bernie, and I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have about Bernie.  What exactly interests you about him?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 26, 2013, 08:42:09 AM
Weird. I thought finding out if they're real was a related question. Because, if they're not as real as you claim, then the whole exercise of asking questions about them seems fairly pointless.

Just think of a tulpa being as real as an imaginary friend, not able to be seen by anyone else but the creator, yet still existing, mentally...

While asking if they are real or not is related to the topic, i was personally expecting other questions.

MY tulpa has green wings and blue fur.  He answers to the name of Bernie, likes playing GTA, and has a Doctorate in Java Studies (he claims). 

If we're making stuff up and trading stories about our imaginary friends, let's do it.  We can chat about whether they'd have fun together, and which one would win at arm wrestling.  But if one of us is saying they ACTUALLY EXIST, then THAT is the important question to answer. 

If there is no evidence you can produce, then Alexis is just as real as Bernie, and I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have about Bernie.  What exactly interests you about him?

*sigh*

Shall I just let this topic die and post some atheist related stuff?...
At-least one person asked some alright questions.

EDIT: just pondering, do you find the concept of tulpae possible? Or for that matter, from what i have typed, what did you comprehend from it?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Jag on September 26, 2013, 08:47:51 AM
Hi A and A,

I'm really curious - why did you create Alexis, or any tulpae at all for that matter? I've more or less made sense of the "how" but now would like to know what led you to try in the first place.

I can sort of see how this could work, provided you don't take the stand that tulpae can manifest in physical form in "the real world" (and you've been very clear that you don't) - but I also think this sounds like a risky thing to do to your brain.

And I'm endlessly curious about people. Nosy even. Please share.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jaimehlers on September 26, 2013, 08:56:39 AM
Now, there's proof that ALL of our actions/decisions happen before we are aware of them.
Correction, there's evidence that we do subconscious processing as part of decision-making which often (but not always) lines up with the conscious decision we make.  That is not the same thing as conclusive proof that decisions are made before our consciousness is aware of them.  To quote a scientist involved in studies of this phenomenon, "What we need now is 20 years of serious neuroscience, not more speculation about the handful of studies that have been done so far."[1]

I'm not trying to start an argument about what is actually happening.  I don't have the technical expertise to accurately judge it, and I don't think anyone else likely to get involved in that particular debate here does either.  My point is that we don't have a sufficient basis of evidence to come to a firm conclusion yet, and we likely won't for years or decades.

But that reminds me of a question.  Has anyone with a tulpa ever submitted to brain scans to help determine what it is they do and why they do it?
 1. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23367-brain-imaging-spots-our-abstract-choices-before-we-do.html (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23367-brain-imaging-spots-our-abstract-choices-before-we-do.html)
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 26, 2013, 09:04:43 AM
Now, there's proof that ALL of our actions/decisions happen before we are aware of them.
Correction, there's evidence that we do subconscious processing as part of decision-making which often (but not always) lines up with the conscious decision we make.  That is not the same thing as conclusive proof that decisions are made before our consciousness is aware of them.  To quote a scientist involved in studies of this phenomenon, "What we need now is 20 years of serious neuroscience, not more speculation about the handful of studies that have been done so far."[1]

I'm not trying to start an argument about what is actually happening.  I don't have the technical expertise to accurately judge it, and I don't think anyone else likely to get involved in that particular debate here does either.  My point is that we don't have a sufficient basis of evidence to come to a firm conclusion yet, and we likely won't for years or decades.

But that reminds me of a question.  Has anyone with a tulpa ever submitted to brain scans to help determine what it is they do and why they do it?
 1. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23367-brain-imaging-spots-our-abstract-choices-before-we-do.html (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23367-brain-imaging-spots-our-abstract-choices-before-we-do.html)

Surprisingly no, if someone did i would love to know the answer, regardless of the results, just to settle it once and for all.

Hi A and A,

I'm really curious - why did you create Alexis, or any tulpae at all for that matter? I've more or less made sense of the "how" but now would like to know what led you to try in the first place.

I can sort of see how this could work, provided you don't take the stand that tulpae can manifest in physical form in "the real world" (and you've been very clear that you don't) - but I also think this sounds like a risky thing to do to your brain.

And I'm endlessly curious about people. Nosy even. Please share.

I decided to make Alexis because i was bored, i dislike actual people (well, most of the people here, in Rockingham, are assholes who swear too much take drugs and are rude, i do have a few close friends), i like the idea of a loyal companion and the concept was interesting.
And no, the idea of physical tulpae is ridiculous, as a side note though, tulpae are known for touching their creators and vice versa.

Please ask more questions, i do not find them nosy.

EDIT: after a tad bit of research, i admit tulpae are delusions, from current knowledge. Although i'm not sure what that is meant to prove.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Dante on September 26, 2013, 09:07:44 AM
what did you comprehend from it?

My comprehension is that, if true, it falls somewhere between creating an imaginary friend and self-induced mulitple personality disorder.

ETA, after seeing A&A's last post:

after a tad bit of research, i admit tulpae are delusions, from current knowledge. Although i'm not sure what that is meant to prove.

It's meant to prove they're not real, sentient beings seperate from your being. They are you.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jaimehlers on September 26, 2013, 09:09:27 AM
MY tulpa has green wings and blue fur.  He answers to the name of Bernie, likes playing GTA, and has a Doctorate in Java Studies (he claims). 

If we're making stuff up and trading stories about our imaginary friends, let's do it.  We can chat about whether they'd have fun together, and which one would win at arm wrestling.  But if one of us is saying they ACTUALLY EXIST, then THAT is the important question to answer. 

If there is no evidence you can produce, then Alexis is just as real as Bernie, and I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have about Bernie.  What exactly interests you about him?
I am 99.999999...% sure you don't actually have a tulpa, Anfauglir.  What you're describing is "Anfauglir wearing a Bernie mask" - in other words, no different from the kind of thing actors have to do in order to get within their character, or what roleplayers do.  That isn't really what Angus is describing.  He's trying to use analogies to get people off of the idea that a tulpa has an independent existence and can be shown to other people (akin to the real "imaginary friends" from Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends).

If you want to have a debate with him about just how real a tulpa is, might I suggest seeing if he's up for a debate, rather than further hijacking this thread with your efforts to prove what you think tulpae are?  There are people asking actual questions about tulpa here - and your facetious attempt to make up a 'tulpa' on the spot and ask Angus if he wants to ask you any questions about 'Bernie' is more than a little ridiculous.  It might even be somewhat childish.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Anfauglir on September 26, 2013, 09:14:29 AM
just pondering, do you find the concept of tulpae possible?

I'm curious, what kind of questions were you expecting to get in this thread?

To answer your question: that someone can create an independant entity that is as real and distinct as the difference between you and I?  No, I don't believe that is possible.

That someone can create a vivid fantasy friend to the extent that they are unable to distinguish that fantasy from reality?  Yes, absolutely, especially if such a person has problems with inter-personal relationships.

It is because of the above - and because there is no evidence that a "tulpa" is anything other than an imaginary friend - that I see no purpose whatsoever in discussing them.  Why didn't you ask any questions about Bernie, by the way?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Anfauglir on September 26, 2013, 09:24:52 AM
I am 99.999999...% sure you don't actually have a tulpa, Anfauglir.  What you're describing is "Anfauglir wearing a Bernie mask" - in other words, no different from the kind of thing actors have to do in order to get within their character, or what roleplayers do.  That isn't really what Angus is describing.  He's trying to use analogies to get people off of the idea that a tulpa has an independent existence and can be shown to other people (akin to the real "imaginary friends" from Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends).

And that's fine, I've accepted that, despite the fact that the source Angus himself quoted suggested they could have a real external world presence.  Tulpa are a construct made entirely within, and with no existence outside of, a particular person's brain.

If you want to have a debate with him about just how real a tulpa is, might I suggest seeing if he's up for a debate, rather than further hijacking this thread with your efforts to prove what you think tulpae are?  There are people asking actual questions about tulpa here - and your facetious attempt to make up a 'tulpa' on the spot and ask Angus if he wants to ask you any questions about 'Bernie' is more than a little ridiculous.  It might even be somewhat childish.

More than happy to hear any evidence Angus is prepared to present that a tulpa is indeed anything more than an imaginary construct within his mind, or how they differ from MPD.  Its possible that if Angus had used the word "real" in a slightly different way, my response may have been different.

Incidentally…..Angus himself has repeatedly said that he DOESN'T want to talk about how real a tulpa may be.   If he is prepared to do that, I'm more than happy to go along.  Ball is entirely in his court, I'm just following his lead.


EDIT:  Just seen this:

EDIT: after a tad bit of research, i admit tulpae are delusions, from current knowledge. Although i'm not sure what that is meant to prove.

...so now I'm not sure where we are going in this thread at all.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 26, 2013, 09:30:19 AM
just pondering, do you find the concept of tulpae possible?

I'm curious, what kind of questions were you expecting to get in this thread?

Questions about tulpae and Alexis personally.

To answer your question: that someone can create an independant entity that is as real and distinct as the difference between you and I?  No, I don't believe that is possible.

Okay.

That someone can create a vivid fantasy friend to the extent that they are unable to distinguish that fantasy from reality?  Yes, absolutely, especially if such a person has problems with inter-personal relationships.

To be honest, one of the "warnings" for tulpa making is to never forget it is a fantasy.

It is because of the above - and because there is no evidence that a "tulpa" is anything other than an imaginary friend - that I see no purpose whatsoever in discussing them.  Why didn't you ask any questions about Bernie, by the way?

This "Bernie" does not sound like a tulpa, i assumed your post was sarcasm, is bernie indeed a tulpa?

what did you comprehend from it?

My comprehension is that, if true, it falls somewhere between creating an imaginary friend and self-induced mulitple personality disorder.

Hmmm, i would say a tulpa is more like an imaginary friend on steroids, then supercharged to the point of sentience...

ETA, after seeing A&A's last post:

after a tad bit of research, i admit tulpae are delusions, from current knowledge. Although i'm not sure what that is meant to prove.

It's meant to prove they're not real, sentient beings seperate from your being. They are you.

A tulpa is always going to be you, it cannot just split your brain in half like some kind of messed up parasite, but it runs in a separate process, sharing the brain.

MY tulpa has green wings and blue fur.  He answers to the name of Bernie, likes playing GTA, and has a Doctorate in Java Studies (he claims). 

If we're making stuff up and trading stories about our imaginary friends, let's do it.  We can chat about whether they'd have fun together, and which one would win at arm wrestling.  But if one of us is saying they ACTUALLY EXIST, then THAT is the important question to answer. 

If there is no evidence you can produce, then Alexis is just as real as Bernie, and I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have about Bernie.  What exactly interests you about him?
I am 99.999999...% sure you don't actually have a tulpa, Anfauglir.  What you're describing is "Anfauglir wearing a Bernie mask" - in other words, no different from the kind of thing actors have to do in order to get within their character, or what roleplayers do.  That isn't really what Angus is describing.  He's trying to use analogies to get people off of the idea that a tulpa has an independent existence and can be shown to other people (akin to the real "imaginary friends" from Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends).

Heheh, one of the most annoying things on the tulpa forums is roleplayers xD.

If you want to have a debate with him about just how real a tulpa is, might I suggest seeing if he's up for a debate, rather than further hijacking this thread with your efforts to prove what you think tulpae are?  There are people asking actual questions about tulpa here - and your facetious attempt to make up a 'tulpa' on the spot and ask Angus if he wants to ask you any questions about 'Bernie' is more than a little ridiculous.  It might even be somewhat childish.

Again, i honestly cannot prove tulpae, heck, Alexis cant even do much, a debate would be futile. Thanks for trying to get the topic re-railed though.


I am 99.999999...% sure you don't actually have a tulpa, Anfauglir.  What you're describing is "Anfauglir wearing a Bernie mask" - in other words, no different from the kind of thing actors have to do in order to get within their character, or what roleplayers do.  That isn't really what Angus is describing.  He's trying to use analogies to get people off of the idea that a tulpa has an independent existence and can be shown to other people (akin to the real "imaginary friends" from Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends).

And that's fine, I've accepted that, despite the fact that the source Angus himself quoted suggested they could have a real external world presence.  Tulpa are a construct made entirely within, and with no existence outside of, a particular person's brain.

They can affect the creator, yes, but i never said they have any other real world presence.

If you want to have a debate with him about just how real a tulpa is, might I suggest seeing if he's up for a debate, rather than further hijacking this thread with your efforts to prove what you think tulpae are?  There are people asking actual questions about tulpa here - and your facetious attempt to make up a 'tulpa' on the spot and ask Angus if he wants to ask you any questions about 'Bernie' is more than a little ridiculous.  It might even be somewhat childish.

More than happy to hear any evidence Angus is prepared to present that a tulpa is indeed anything more than an imaginary construct within his mind, or how they differ from MPD.  Its possible that if Angus had used the word "real" in a slightly different way, my response may have been different.

Incidentally…..Angus himself has repeatedly said that he DOESN'T want to talk about how real a tulpa may be.   If he is prepared to do that, I'm more than happy to go along.  Ball is entirely in his court, I'm just following his lead.

Indeed i do not want to discuss how real they can be, nor am i attempting to prove them, if you don't believe, fine, nothing is going to happen, you wont die, you wont go to hell or some other stupid place, some people here are indeed interested, so may you please leave this topic? I have to admit that your disbelief is justified entirely, and if anything makes more sense than what i am saying, but why ask questions in a topic you don't have interest in?

Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Jag on September 26, 2013, 09:34:54 AM
I decided to make Alexis because i was bored, i dislike actual people (well, most of the people here, in Rockingham, are assholes who swear too much take drugs and are rude, i do have a few close friends), i like the idea of a loyal companion and the concept was interesting.
I was happily reading your explanation thinking "yep... sure... got it..."  when I slammed into this:
Quote
And no, the idea of physical tulpae is ridiculous, as a side note though, tulpae are known for touching their creators and vice versa.

Can you elaborate on the bolded segment please? It sounds like a blatant contradiction to the unbolded part, so I'm assuming for now that I'm not quite understanding what you mean.

New question: how did you get the idea in the first place? I can posit all kinds of scenarios, but would rather let you tell me your story than me tell myself your story.

Edit: there are two questions in here - I'm interested in the answer to both, sorry about the doubling up.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 26, 2013, 09:39:15 AM
I decided to make Alexis because i was bored, i dislike actual people (well, most of the people here, in Rockingham, are assholes who swear too much take drugs and are rude, i do have a few close friends), i like the idea of a loyal companion and the concept was interesting.
I was happily reading your explanation thinking "yep... sure... got it..."  when I slammed into this:
Quote
And no, the idea of physical tulpae is ridiculous, as a side note though, tulpae are known for touching their creators and vice versa.

Can you elaborate on the bolded segment please? It sounds like a blatant contradiction to the unbolded part, so I'm assuming for now that I'm not quite understanding what you mean.

New question: how did you get the idea in the first place? I can posit all kinds of scenarios, but would rather let you tell me your story than me tell myself your story.

I got the idea from a friend, where he got the idea is likely 4chan, but i am not sure.

"Can you elaborate on the bolded segment please? It sounds like a blatant contradiction to the unbolded part, so I'm assuming for now that I'm not quite understanding what you mean."

A tulpa cannot be physical, that is "an object that actually exists", but they can make an almost exact sensation of touch to their creators. Have you ever had a dream that felt, physically, real? Just like that.

EDIT: WOW, there sure is a large number of people looking at this topic O.o. Come on people , please ask something.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Anfauglir on September 26, 2013, 09:41:47 AM
]Indeed i do not want to discuss how real they can be, nor am i attempting to prove them, if you don't believe, fine, nothing is going to happen, you wont die, you wont go to hell or some other stupid place, some people here are indeed interested, so may you please leave this topic? I have to admit that your disbelief is justified entirely, and if anything makes more sense than what i am saying, but why ask questions in a topic you don't have interest in?

There is a major difference between "have no interest in" and "do not believe in".  I don't believe in Yahweh, so by that token should I leave this entire forum?  Actually, my participation here is for very similar reasons to the reason I am on the forum at all.

Little bit of background.  My mother has dementia.  The home she is in at the moment is a specialised care-home for people with severe mental issues, which includes MPD.  When I visit, I see just how badly wrong the human mind can go.  So perhaps I am a little sensitive when someone comes along espousing how great it is to deliberately set up "an imaginary friend on steroids, then supercharged to the point of sentience" within their own brain, touting it as a good thing, because they were bored.  It worries me further when your responses switch from "never forget it is a fantasy" to "they can affect the creator".

If we are going to discuss what tulpa are, their neurological effects, and their reality, then I can see a lot of point in that.  But if all you want to discuss are questions about your particular "imaginary friend on steroids", then perhaps I should indeed bow out - as I might bow out of any threasd where a Christian said "ask me anything about Jeebus, but don't ask me if he is real".
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Jag on September 26, 2013, 09:47:52 AM
Thanks, I now understand what you meant, and see the connection to sense of touch in dreams. This phenomenon sounds similar to lucid dreaming, in some ways.

Next: I think you mentioned that Alexis looks similar to the pony in your avatar? If so, did you direct that, or did the form happen without you consciously guiding it? I warned you that I'm nosy  ;)
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 26, 2013, 10:02:54 AM
Thanks, I now understand what you meant, and see the connection to sense of touch in dreams. This phenomenon sounds similar to lucid dreaming, in some ways.

Next: I think you mentioned that Alexis looks similar to the pony in your avatar? If so, did you direct that, or did the form happen without you consciously guiding it? I warned you that I'm nosy  ;)

Originally she was to look like an original concept I made for a fan fiction (although a female version), then for whatever reason she started looking like the pony (Its actually a species called a Changeling, but whatever.) in my avatar, so it kind of stuck.

]Indeed i do not want to discuss how real they can be, nor am i attempting to prove them, if you don't believe, fine, nothing is going to happen, you wont die, you wont go to hell or some other stupid place, some people here are indeed interested, so may you please leave this topic? I have to admit that your disbelief is justified entirely, and if anything makes more sense than what i am saying, but why ask questions in a topic you don't have interest in?

There is a major difference between "have no interest in" and "do not believe in".  I don't believe in Yahweh, so by that token should I leave this entire forum?  Actually, my participation here is for very similar reasons to the reason I am on the forum at all.

Fair enough, but can you ask anything but "Are tulpae real?" As you already know i do not have any answer.

Little bit of background.  My mother has dementia.  The home she is in at the moment is a specialised care-home for people with severe mental issues, which includes MPD.  When I visit, I see just how badly wrong the human mind can go.  So perhaps I am a little sensitive when someone comes along espousing how great it is to deliberately set up "an imaginary friend on steroids, then supercharged to the point of sentience" within their own brain, touting it as a good thing, because they were bored.  It worries me further when your responses switch from "never forget it is a fantasy" to "they can affect the creator".

A dream is a fantasy, have you never felt anything in a dream? And i assure you i have no mental issues, i'm just an odd person, made worse because of my eye disorder, that makes me have a derpy expression. Lastly, i never said it was not dangerous, nor did i say it is a good thing. There are many dangers, and many benefits, probably more dangers though now that i think of it...

If we are going to discuss what tulpa are, their neurological effects, and their reality, then I can see a lot of point in that.  But if all you want to discuss are questions about your particular "imaginary friend on steroids", then perhaps I should indeed bow out - as I might bow out of any threasd where a Christian said "ask me anything about Jeebus, but don't ask me if he is real".

One of the reasons on why I cannot answer your questions is that I lack the knowledge to answer them. If you truly want some answers, ask the tulpa forums, they have more experience.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jaimehlers on September 26, 2013, 10:31:38 AM
And that's fine, I've accepted that, despite the fact that the source Angus himself quoted suggested they could have a real external world presence.  Tulpa are a construct made entirely within, and with no existence outside of, a particular person's brain.
But did Angus himself ever say that or even suggest it?  If you want to take exception with people who claim that a tulpa can have a real-world presence (like the imaginary friends from the cartoon I keep quoting), have fun.  But you were kind of jumping on Angus with both feet there for a bit.

Quote from: Anfauglir
More than happy to hear any evidence Angus is prepared to present that a tulpa is indeed anything more than an imaginary construct within his mind, or how they differ from MPD.  Its possible that if Angus had used the word "real" in a slightly different way, my response may have been different.
Maybe you should have asked him what he meant, then.

Quote from: Anfauglir
Incidentally…..Angus himself has repeatedly said that he DOESN'T want to talk about how real a tulpa may be.   If he is prepared to do that, I'm more than happy to go along.  Ball is entirely in his court, I'm just following his lead.

EDIT:  Just seen this:

EDIT: after a tad bit of research, i admit tulpae are delusions, from current knowledge. Although i'm not sure what that is meant to prove.

...so now I'm not sure where we are going in this thread at all.
Given that this thread is about asking questions about tulpae, might I suggest that?  If you don't want to ask any other questions (say, because you're satisfied that tulpae are delusions), then perhaps you would be so kind as to clear the field for other people who do have additional questions.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jdawg70 on September 26, 2013, 10:33:58 AM
Fair enough, but can you ask anything but "Are tulpae real?" As you already know i do not have any answer.
Here's the problem then:
Does it matter at all what questions are asked and what the answers are?  I can offer to answer any questions you may have regarding what Deadpool was doing during the Secret Wars, but that question/answer session would be nothing more than storytelling or fan fiction.  If we talk about tulpa without any regards for whether they possess an objective existence or not, then your answers will be just as meaningful as anyone else's answers.  Any contradiction with objective reality that comes up can be easily dismissed with 'well we don't know if it's real'.  Do tulpae speak Latin fluently?  Sure, why the hell not - we can't find any examples of tulpae speaking Latin, but, well, we don't know if tulpae are real so whatever.  Can lizards create a tulpa?  No, tulpa require an originating sentience.  Why do they require an originating sentience?  Well, let's just say they do.  It's not like there is an objective reality regarding tulpae that we can compare that answer against to determine if it is even in the same ballpark, city, state, country, or planet as 'correct'.

I don't really have a problem with storytelling.  It's pretty fun; and frankly if anyone wants to have a back-and-forth talking about what Deadpool was doing during the Secret Wars, or what the characteristics are of a talking horse named Ed are, or what the properties of Adamantium are, or if changing the coordinates by 3.6deg on a Stargate would be detrimental for travel or not, we can do that.  It'd be fun, but it would be nothing more than making sh*t up for the sake of storytelling.

If you want to try out some 'What if...' scenarios under the assumption that tulpae are real, that's all good and well, but why would you do such a thing?  One reason I can think of doing such a thing is to determine if, conceptually, tulpae are at least compatible with objective reality.  But that is treading into the water of asking 'Are tulpae real', which apparently isn't something you're interested in figuring out.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Jag on September 26, 2013, 10:40:44 AM
I'm glad that you indicate that you see why some of us think this is dangerous. I have a relatively minor mental illness  - I'm cyclothymic (mildly bi-polar) and have chosen not to medicate. For some, it can be managed by other means and frankly, psychotropic medications scare the crap out of me, so I steer clear unless I really slide hard down. Messing with my brain chemistry is a last resort for me, but this topic is interesting to me precisely because that looks like what you've done, minus the drugs.

Neuroscience is complex and fascinating and I'm pissed that most of it is way over my head  ;)

I need to stop screwing around here and get back to work. Thanks for answering my questions, I'm sure I'll have more if this thread continues.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jaimehlers on September 26, 2013, 10:43:42 AM
Little bit of background.  My mother has dementia.  The home she is in at the moment is a specialised care-home for people with severe mental issues, which includes MPD.  When I visit, I see just how badly wrong the human mind can go.  So perhaps I am a little sensitive when someone comes along espousing how great it is to deliberately set up "an imaginary friend on steroids, then supercharged to the point of sentience" within their own brain, touting it as a good thing, because they were bored.  It worries me further when your responses switch from "never forget it is a fantasy" to "they can affect the creator".
Can an idea, born of imagination, affect its creator?  Of course.  I suspect it's that very reason that he said that one shouldn't forget that a tulpa is essentially imaginary.  In other words, there's no contradiction there.

I imagine I would have a similar reaction if someone came along touting the use of recreational drugs for altered mental states - but I'd focus on my actual concerns with the use of recreational drugs rather than asking facetious questions about whether the altered mental states were 'real' or not.  Might I suggest that you clarify your questions to address the concerns you have, rather than asking him if they're really real over and over again?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jdawg70 on September 26, 2013, 10:48:46 AM
Can an idea, born of imagination, affect its creator?  Of course.  I suspect it's that very reason that he said that one shouldn't forget that a tulpa is essentially imaginary.  In other words, there's no contradiction there.

I imagine I would have a similar reaction if someone came along touting the use of recreational drugs for altered mental states - but I'd focus on my actual concerns with the use of recreational drugs rather than asking facetious questions about whether the altered mental states were 'real' or not.  Might I suggest that you clarify your questions to address the concerns you have, rather than asking him if they're really real over and over again?
Anfauglir isn't asking if the altered states are real - he's asking if the recreational drug use is real.

If there is actually no recreational drug use, then you can ask all the questions in the world you want about the effects of LSD but the answers you get will be meaningless.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 26, 2013, 10:58:36 AM
Fair enough, but can you ask anything but "Are tulpae real?" As you already know i do not have any answer.
Does it matter at all what questions are asked and what the answers are? 

To me, yes. To people interested, yes. To others, no. If you are not interested, please leave.

Can an idea, born of imagination, affect its creator?  Of course.  I suspect it's that very reason that he said that one shouldn't forget that a tulpa is essentially imaginary.  In other words, there's no contradiction there.

Its one of the precautions that stops tulpae (well, nasty bad tulpae) from taking over if they get pissed. Sadly, some people have apparently been taker over.


I'm glad that you indicate that you see why some of us think this is dangerous. I have a relatively minor mental illness  - I'm cyclothymic (mildly bi-polar) and have chosen not to medicate. For some, it can be managed by other means and frankly, psychotropic medications scare the crap out of me, so I steer clear unless I really slide hard down. Messing with my brain chemistry is a last resort for me, but this topic is interesting to me precisely because that looks like what you've done, minus the drugs.

Neuroscience is complex and fascinating and I'm pissed that most of it is way over my head  ;)

I need to stop screwing around here and get back to work. Thanks for answering my questions, I'm sure I'll have more if this thread continues.

Please do so soon ;D

Can an idea, born of imagination, affect its creator?  Of course.  I suspect it's that very reason that he said that one shouldn't forget that a tulpa is essentially imaginary.  In other words, there's no contradiction there.

I imagine I would have a similar reaction if someone came along touting the use of recreational drugs for altered mental states - but I'd focus on my actual concerns with the use of recreational drugs rather than asking facetious questions about whether the altered mental states were 'real' or not.  Might I suggest that you clarify your questions to address the concerns you have, rather than asking him if they're really real over and over again?
Anfauglir isn't asking if the altered states are real - he's asking if the recreational drug use is real.

If there is actually no recreational drug use, then you can ask all the questions in the world you want about the effects of LSD but the answers you get will be meaningless.

I can claim tulpae are real, and some would agree, but take it with more salt than the ocean can provide...I would like some tests to be done, cat scans or whatever, but so far said tests have not happened.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jaimehlers on September 26, 2013, 11:01:04 AM
Here's the problem then:
Does it matter at all what questions are asked and what the answers are?  I can offer to answer any questions you may have regarding what Deadpool was doing during the Secret Wars, but that question/answer session would be nothing more than storytelling or fan fiction.  If we talk about tulpa without any regards for whether they possess an objective existence or not, then your answers will be just as meaningful as anyone else's answers.  Any contradiction with objective reality that comes up can be easily dismissed with 'well we don't know if it's real'.  Do tulpae speak Latin fluently?  Sure, why the hell not - we can't find any examples of tulpae speaking Latin, but, well, we don't know if tulpae are real so whatever.  Can lizards create a tulpa?  No, tulpa require an originating sentience.  Why do they require an originating sentience?  Well, let's just say they do.  It's not like there is an objective reality regarding tulpae that we can compare that answer against to determine if it is even in the same ballpark, city, state, country, or planet as 'correct'.

I don't really have a problem with storytelling.  It's pretty fun; and frankly if anyone wants to have a back-and-forth talking about what Deadpool was doing during the Secret Wars, or what the characteristics are of a talking horse named Ed are, or what the properties of Adamantium are, or if changing the coordinates by 3.6deg on a Stargate would be detrimental for travel or not, we can do that.  It'd be fun, but it would be nothing more than making sh*t up for the sake of storytelling.

If you want to try out some 'What if...' scenarios under the assumption that tulpae are real, that's all good and well, but why would you do such a thing?  One reason I can think of doing such a thing is to determine if, conceptually, tulpae are at least compatible with objective reality.  But that is treading into the water of asking 'Are tulpae real', which apparently isn't something you're interested in figuring out.
He isn't explaining himself very well.  I'm recognizing similar symptoms of groping for an answer that I have when I have an intuitive understanding of something, but don't have all the intermediate steps grasped.

Angus, I'm going to try my hand at setting the record straight here.  If I say something wrong, please correct me.

A tulpa is basically a mental construct.  It's similar to an imaginary friend, except that it's considerably more developed, to the point where it has some ability to act (inside the mind) without the conscious intention of the person who created it.  It's like a parallel process in a computer; it runs along with the other processes, using the same resources, via the equivalent of time-sharing.  So it's not real, in the sense of being an independent entity, such as another person.  It can't directly affect the real world the way a person can.  However, it exists because it's a part of the mind.

Anfauglir isn't asking if the altered states are real - he's asking if the recreational drug use is real.
No, he's not.  He's asking if the tulpa is real, not the process used to make a tulpa.

Quote from: jdawg70
If there is actually no recreational drug use, then you can ask all the questions in the world you want about the effects of LSD but the answers you get will be meaningless.
Bad analogy - the tulpa isn't the equivalent of recreational drug use.  The process used to make the tulpa is, however (after a fashion, it's not exactly comparable in any case).
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jaimehlers on September 26, 2013, 11:05:36 AM
So, an actual question.  Something I thought of when the subject of MPD came up was how tulpa-creation might apply to it.  Like, for example, if it could be used as a kind of therapy to help bring the disassociated personalities together, even if it wouldn't necessarily integrate them into the main personality.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 26, 2013, 11:10:06 AM
Angus, I'm going to try my hand at setting the record straight here.  If I say something wrong, please correct me.

A tulpa is basically a mental construct.  It's similar to an imaginary friend, except that it's considerably more developed, to the point where it has some ability to act (inside the mind) without the conscious intention of the person who created it.  It's like a parallel process in a computer; it runs along with the other processes, using the same resources, via the equivalent of time-sharing.  So it's not real, in the sense of being an independent entity, such as another person.  It can't directly affect the real world the way a person can.  However, it exists because it's a part of the mind.

Everything seems right there, however i would say "any wanted ability to act" instead of "some ability to act".

Anfauglir isn't asking if the altered states are real - he's asking if the recreational drug use is real.
No, he's not.  He's asking if the tulpa is real, not the process used to make a tulpa.

As an interesting thing to note, he apparently has no complaints with the process to make a tulpa, odd?

Quote from: jdawg70
If there is actually no recreational drug use, then you can ask all the questions in the world you want about the effects of LSD but the answers you get will be meaningless.
Bad analogy - the tulpa isn't the equivalent of recreational drug use.  The process used to make the tulpa is, however (after a fashion, it's not exactly comparable in any case).

Love the analogy of drug use and tulpae. Seems so stereo-typically fitting.


So, an actual question.  Something I thought of when the subject of MPD came up was how tulpa-creation might apply to it.  Like, for example, if it could be used as a kind of therapy to help bring the disassociated personalities together, even if it wouldn't necessarily integrate them into the main personality.

I'm no mental disorder know it all, but MPD is separate personalities, tulpae are essentially imaginary friends. Not really that good of a comparison. I could assume that making a tulpa with the exact personality some one does not want could work, but is unlikely.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jynnan tonnix on September 26, 2013, 11:41:54 AM
This is actually a pretty interesting thread, and it got me to thinking how vivid imaginary friends can be in childhood, and of the inevitable day that you can no longer conjure them up, so to speak. It seems to me that the concept of a Tulpa (which I had never heard of before this) is like a method to reconnect with the part of your brain which used to have such facility with imagination.

Maybe (probably) there are those creative people out there who never do completely grow out of that, but it's something I lost around about adolescence.

There's a passage in The House at Pooh Corner which, ever since I realized that part of me was slipping away, I have never been able to read without crying (yes, I still pull it out and reread it occasionally. Maybe I will have some grandbabies in the foreseeable future and be able to read it with an actual purpose again)...When Christopher Robin starts school and has to explain to Pooh that he won't be able to just do "nothing" anymore...that Pooh should  never forget him, even when he (Christopher Robin) is 100
 
Quote
"Pooh," said Christopher Robin earnestly, "if I—if I'm not quite —" He stopped and tried again. "Pooh, whatever happens, you will understand, won't you?"....

And though the book ends with the image of the enchanted place at the top of the forest where "a little boy and his bear will always be playing", it's still so gut-wrenching for me.

Heck, I cry through the last verse of Puff the Magic Dragon as well.

In any case, I don't see it as necessarily being something with any great potential to mess up one's brain. If anything, it should really be something which would help tap into creativity, and that's generally a good thing.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Graybeard on September 26, 2013, 12:33:21 PM

A tulpa is a fantasy friend, perhaps my definition of real is not the best...

But if you have any questions, please ask.
1. Why would you want a fantasy friend?
2.  Isn't this all a little pointless?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jdawg70 on September 26, 2013, 01:13:00 PM
He isn't explaining himself very well.  I'm recognizing similar symptoms of groping for an answer that I have when I have an intuitive understanding of something, but don't have all the intermediate steps grasped.
I understand that.  Sometimes concepts are difficult to articulate.  But, I do want to say that 'Making things up on the fly for purposes of storytelling' also showcases the same symptoms that difficult-to-articulate concepts have.  Difficulty in articulating a concept doesn't necessarily mean that it's just hogwash, but it does make it more difficult to differentiate between 'ill-understood', 'hard to explain', and 'made up fantasy'.
Quote
Angus, I'm going to try my hand at setting the record straight here.  If I say something wrong, please correct me.

A tulpa is basically a mental construct.  It's similar to an imaginary friend, except that it's considerably more developed, to the point where it has some ability to act (inside the mind) without the conscious intention of the person who created it.  It's like a parallel process in a computer; it runs along with the other processes, using the same resources, via the equivalent of time-sharing.  So it's not real, in the sense of being an independent entity, such as another person.  It can't directly affect the real world the way a person can.  However, it exists because it's a part of the mind.
But...apparently the tulpa can directly affect the real world the way (well, at least in some ways) a person can.  I mean, the primary identity/personality (you know, the not tulpa entity that is a part of this shared mind) is an entity of the real world, right?  And if the tulpa can process information for the primary identity to consider, and this processing is done independently of the primary entity's will, isn't it fair to say that the tulpa is having a direct effect on the real world?
Quote
Anfauglir isn't asking if the altered states are real - he's asking if the recreational drug use is real.
No, he's not.  He's asking if the tulpa is real, not the process used to make a tulpa.
I see the distinction now.  Point taken.
Quote
Quote from: jdawg70
If there is actually no recreational drug use, then you can ask all the questions in the world you want about the effects of LSD but the answers you get will be meaningless.
Bad analogy - the tulpa isn't the equivalent of recreational drug use.  The process used to make the tulpa is, however (after a fashion, it's not exactly comparable in any case).
As per the above, yes I now see the distinction so I'll accept that it is a bad analogy as presented.  I'm thinking about it and may try salvaging the analogy (assuming it can be salvaged) later when I have more time.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jaimehlers on September 26, 2013, 01:22:05 PM
But...apparently the tulpa can directly affect the real world the way (well, at least in some ways) a person can.  I mean, the primary identity/personality (you know, the not tulpa entity that is a part of this shared mind) is an entity of the real world, right?  And if the tulpa can process information for the primary identity to consider, and this processing is done independently of the primary entity's will, isn't it fair to say that the tulpa is having a direct effect on the real world?
True.  But the same can be said of almost anything fictional.  Did Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker affect the real world?  Did Harry Potter?  How about Captain Kirk?  Not a single one of them did anything directly to the real world - but every single one of them influenced it in some way.  For that matter, what about YHWH, Zeus, and Thor?

A tulpa appears to be similar, except that the effects are essentially limited to a single person, rather than being a thought meme that can be spread.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Zankuu on September 26, 2013, 02:37:03 PM
First link I got to said: "A tulpa is a thoughtform/being you create with the power of your mind. They are completely sentient and can talk to you. It's like splitting a piece of your mind off that turns into another person. Eventually you can impose them into the real world, as a forced hallucination. A tulpa can have access to your subconcious, and can recall anything there for you."

Using this definition, wouldn't a self projection as god be considered a tulpa?

Is the being is created from your mind? Check.
Is the beings personality and wishes part of the creators subconscious? Check.
Does this being supposedly talk to you? Check.

Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jdawg70 on September 26, 2013, 04:02:00 PM
True.  But the same can be said of almost anything fictional.  Did Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker affect the real world?  Did Harry Potter?  How about Captain Kirk?  Not a single one of them did anything directly to the real world - but every single one of them influenced it in some way.  For that matter, what about YHWH, Zeus, and Thor?

A tulpa appears to be similar, except that the effects are essentially limited to a single person, rather than being a thought meme that can be spread.
I guess that's part of the point I'm trying to make though.  How is asking questions about a tulpa any different than asking questions about Darth Vader, YHWH, or Zeus?  Unless we have some requirement that the concept we're talking about has some basis in reality, I do not see how it is different from storytelling...

...which is fine.  If Angus is just interested in waxing about some cohesive narrative or mythos revolving around tulpae, I don't see the harm in that at all.  We don't really need to worry if a tulpa is actually a distinct, independent entity from the primary identity to do a Q&A around aspects of tulpae.

But perhaps I'm merely confusing things here (or, rather, I'm just confused).  Maybe some clarity on what everyone here means by 'real'.  If I were to ask Angus 'are tulpae real', I guess what I'm really asking is - is a tulpa actually a distinct, independent entity from the creator of the tulpa, or is it like an imaginary friend that isn't actually a distinct, independent entity but merely treated as one?  Did I miss the boat on what the whole 'real' conversation was all about?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 26, 2013, 07:21:13 PM
But perhaps I'm merely confusing things here (or, rather, I'm just confused).  Maybe some clarity on what everyone here means by 'real'.  If I were to ask Angus 'are tulpae real', I guess what I'm really asking is - is a tulpa actually a distinct, independent entity from the creator of the tulpa, or is it like an imaginary friend that isn't actually a distinct, independent entity but merely treated as one?  Did I miss the boat on what the whole 'real' conversation was all about?

A completed tulpa should be dependent from the creator, but distinct too.

First link I got to said: "A tulpa is a thoughtform/being you create with the power of your mind. They are completely sentient and can talk to you. It's like splitting a piece of your mind off that turns into another person. Eventually you can impose them into the real world, as a forced hallucination. A tulpa can have access to your subconcious, and can recall anything there for you."

Using this definition, wouldn't a self projection as god be considered a tulpa?

Is the being is created from your mind? Check.
Is the beings personality and wishes part of the creators subconscious? Check.
Does this being supposedly talk to you? Check.


I could assume that constant attempts to talk to "God" could make a tulpa, perhaps that is why some claim they hear voices?
Although, it all hinges on sentience, if it isn't sentient, it is not a tulpa.


But...apparently the tulpa can directly affect the real world the way (well, at least in some ways) a person can.  I mean, the primary identity/personality (you know, the not tulpa entity that is a part of this shared mind) is an entity of the real world, right?  And if the tulpa can process information for the primary identity to consider, and this processing is done independently of the primary entity's will, isn't it fair to say that the tulpa is having a direct effect on the real world?


So in your opinion, anything that exists in the mind, even the thought of Darth Vader equates to reality?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Fiji on September 27, 2013, 12:52:23 AM
Now, there's proof that ALL of our actions/decisions happen before we are aware of them.
Correction, there's evidence that we do subconscious processing as part of decision-making which often (but not always) lines up with the conscious decision we make.  That is not the same thing as conclusive proof that decisions are made before our consciousness is aware of them.  To quote a scientist involved in studies of this phenomenon, "What we need now is 20 years of serious neuroscience, not more speculation about the handful of studies that have been done so far."[1]

I'm not trying to start an argument about what is actually happening.  I don't have the technical expertise to accurately judge it, and I don't think anyone else likely to get involved in that particular debate here does either.  My point is that we don't have a sufficient basis of evidence to come to a firm conclusion yet, and we likely won't for years or decades.

But that reminds me of a question.  Has anyone with a tulpa ever submitted to brain scans to help determine what it is they do and why they do it?
 1. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23367-brain-imaging-spots-our-abstract-choices-before-we-do.html (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23367-brain-imaging-spots-our-abstract-choices-before-we-do.html)

Surprisingly no, if someone did i would love to know the answer, regardless of the results, just to settle it once and for all.


Man, this topic just gallops along, doesn't it.
I must admit that my initial wording was sloppy. We indeed don't have the 'proof' I mentioned.
And I concur with  jaimehlers  and Angus (and maybe Alexis, who knows?) that it would be a good idea to stuff a tulpa-ist into a scanner, like they did with those praying nuns. See which parts of the brain light up. If it's the part responsible for imagination, than we're indeed talking about Darth Vader. If some other part(s) ... hmm.
I don't suppose anyone around here knows any tenured neurologists[2]?
It would also be fun to compare this with a theist engaging in SPAG ... though, good look trying to find a theist who's willing to admit that a) SPAG exists, b) he's doing it and c) get him to talk to this god of his while inside a big scary science machine ;)
 2. Cause, you know, those are a dime a dozen and you run into them all the time on the Internet
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Anfauglir on September 27, 2013, 03:14:13 AM
I'm no mental disorder know it all, but MPD is separate personalities, tulpae are essentially imaginary friends.

Its one of the precautions that stops tulpae (well, nasty bad tulpae) from taking over if they get pissed. Sadly, some people have apparently been taker over

Sorry, are tulpa no more than imaginary friends, or are they potentially (and sometimes actually) extremely dangerous to the person's mental health?  Given your second paragraph, how exactly is a tulpa distinct from MPD?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Anfauglir on September 27, 2013, 03:47:23 AM
Does it matter at all what questions are asked and what the answers are? 

To me, yes. To people interested, yes. To others, no. If you are not interested, please leave.

I asked this question a while back:
I'm curious, what kind of questions were you expecting to get in this thread?
Questions about tulpae and Alexis personally.

And I'm still trying to get a handle on exactly what level you intend, or are able, to answer questions.

Can we please deviate away from whether or not tulpae are real or not? I am not here to prove it, the topic is for tulpa related questions.....but if you have any questions, please ask.

Please ask more questions, i do not find them nosy.

.....can you ask anything but "Are tulpae real?" As you already know i do not have any answer......One of the reasons on why I cannot answer your questions is that I lack the knowledge to answer them.

Would it be fair to say that you expected answers about your own particular tulpa, her appearance, mannerisms, preferences et al, and possibly questions about how long it took you to create her and her development, but not questions about the psychological and neurological effects, or the objective reality of the construct?

To paraphrase something that jdawg said earlier on, would it be a fair analogy to say that you would be happy to discuss the history and personalities of the Star Wars universe, but not to answer questions about how the films were shot or how the CGI effects were created?  Basically, to discuss the mythos rather than the "behind the scenes" mechanics?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 27, 2013, 04:12:31 AM
I'm no mental disorder know it all, but MPD is separate personalities, tulpae are essentially imaginary friends.

Its one of the precautions that stops tulpae (well, nasty bad tulpae) from taking over if they get pissed. Sadly, some people have apparently been taker over

Sorry, are tulpa no more than imaginary friends, or are they potentially (and sometimes actually) extremely dangerous to the person's mental health?  Given your second paragraph, how exactly is a tulpa distinct from MPD?

I have always said tulpae are more advanced than imaginary friends, i never said they were exactly the same.
Tulpae are potentially dangerous, yes.
It differs from MPD by being a separate process entirely, while MPD is simply several different personalities.

Does it matter at all what questions are asked and what the answers are? 

To me, yes. To people interested, yes. To others, no. If you are not interested, please leave.

I asked this question a while back:
I'm curious, what kind of questions were you expecting to get in this thread?
Questions about tulpae and Alexis personally.

And I'm still trying to get a handle on exactly what level you intend, or are able, to answer questions.

Can we please deviate away from whether or not tulpae are real or not? I am not here to prove it, the topic is for tulpa related questions.....but if you have any questions, please ask.

Please ask more questions, i do not find them nosy.

.....can you ask anything but "Are tulpae real?" As you already know i do not have any answer......One of the reasons on why I cannot answer your questions is that I lack the knowledge to answer them.

Would it be fair to say that you expected answers about your own particular tulpa, her appearance, mannerisms, preferences et al, and possibly questions about how long it took you to create her and her development, but not questions about the psychological and neurological effects, or the objective reality of the construct?

I wouldn't mind answering psychological and neurological effects, granted that i know the answers.

To paraphrase something that jdawg said earlier on, would it be a fair analogy to say that you would be happy to discuss the history and personalities of the Star Wars universe, but not to answer questions about how the films were shot or how the CGI effects were created?  Basically, to discuss the mythos rather than the "behind the scenes" mechanics?

I wouldn't mind answering "behind the scenes" for tulpae, but constantly asking "Are tulpae real?" is not going to get anywhere.

Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Anfauglir on September 27, 2013, 04:18:09 AM
I'm no mental disorder know it all, but MPD is separate personalities, tulpae are essentially imaginary friends.

Its one of the precautions that stops tulpae (well, nasty bad tulpae) from taking over if they get pissed. Sadly, some people have apparently been taker over

Sorry, are tulpa no more than imaginary friends, or are they potentially (and sometimes actually) extremely dangerous to the person's mental health?  Given your second paragraph, how exactly is a tulpa distinct from MPD?

I have always said tulpae are more advanced than imaginary friends, i never said they were exactly the same.
Tulpae are potentially dangerous, yes.
It differs from MPD by being a separate process entirely, while MPD is simply several different personalities.

"Multiple" is "more than one".  How is having a tulpa different from having multiple personalities, given that you have accepted that the tulpa can indeed take over the body?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 27, 2013, 04:19:21 AM
I'm no mental disorder know it all, but MPD is separate personalities, tulpae are essentially imaginary friends.

Its one of the precautions that stops tulpae (well, nasty bad tulpae) from taking over if they get pissed. Sadly, some people have apparently been taker over

Sorry, are tulpa no more than imaginary friends, or are they potentially (and sometimes actually) extremely dangerous to the person's mental health?  Given your second paragraph, how exactly is a tulpa distinct from MPD?

I have always said tulpae are more advanced than imaginary friends, i never said they were exactly the same.
Tulpae are potentially dangerous, yes.
It differs from MPD by being a separate process entirely, while MPD is simply several different personalities.

"Multiple" is "more than one".  How is having a tulpa different from having multiple personalities, given that you have accepted that the tulpa can indeed take over the body?

Because personalities do not equate to sentient advanced imaginary friends.
Personalities equate to...well...personalities.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Anfauglir on September 27, 2013, 04:22:17 AM
It differs from MPD by being a separate process entirely, while MPD is simply several different personalities.

"Multiple" is "more than one".  How is having a tulpa different from having multiple personalities, given that you have accepted that the tulpa can indeed take over the body?

Because personalities do not equate to sentient advanced imaginary friends.
Personalities equate to...well...personalities.

So Alexis, and other tulpa, do not have a personality?  In what way does a "sentient" advanced friend not have a "personality"?

If a tulpa is not a personality, how exactly are they able to "take over" the body?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 27, 2013, 04:54:16 AM
It differs from MPD by being a separate process entirely, while MPD is simply several different personalities.

"Multiple" is "more than one".  How is having a tulpa different from having multiple personalities, given that you have accepted that the tulpa can indeed take over the body?

Because personalities do not equate to sentient advanced imaginary friends.
Personalities equate to...well...personalities.

So Alexis, and other tulpa, do not have a personality?  In what way does a "sentient" advanced friend not have a "personality"?

If a tulpa is not a personality, how exactly are they able to "take over" the body?

Tulpae have personalities, yes.
But saying that tulpae are MPD because they have personalities is like saying that all ice creams are sundaes because sundaes have ice cream in them.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Anfauglir on September 27, 2013, 05:24:04 AM
Tulpae have personalities, yes.
But saying that tulpae are MPD because they have personalities is like saying that all ice creams are sundaes because sundaes have ice cream in them.

So then can you please be specific:  in what way does a tulpa differ from a personality, given that tulpa are able to take over a body?  In what way is a sentient tulpa NOT a distinct personality within your body? 

I'm trying to get a clear picture of the distinction between "fantasy friend", "tulpa", and "personality".  It would help perhaps if you gave yur definitions of the three, and listed the ways in which they were dissimilar.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 27, 2013, 05:58:47 AM
Tulpae have personalities,
yes.
Quote
But saying that tulpae are MPD because they have personalities is like saying that all ice creams are sundaes because sundaes have ice cream in them.

So then can you please be specific:  in what way does a tulpa differ from a personality, given that tulpa are able to take over a body?  In what way is a sentient tulpa NOT a distinct personality within your body?

Are you saying that the human mind, in all its different functions and complexity, is just a personality? If so, i can understand your confusion.

Quote
I'm trying to get a clear picture of the distinction between "fantasy friend", "tulpa", and "personality".  It would help perhaps if you gave yur definitions of the three, and listed the ways in which they were dissimilar.

All the words are rather self explanatory.

I give up trying to correct the quotes - A & A, please learn how to use quotes. GB Mod
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Mrjason on September 27, 2013, 06:20:07 AM
What you're describing is "Anfauglir wearing a Bernie mask" -

In the same way that anfauglir is a mask for an unknown person sitting behind a computer in the UK.
The anfauglir internet presence may have some differences to the from the flesh and blood person, granted I don't think there are many in this particular case. At the very least I doubt that his driving licence says anfauglir.

Based on the above my question for A & A  is what makes a Tulpa different from any other personality that is adopted by a person. I.e. a sports person that gets in the zone.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 27, 2013, 06:41:24 AM

Based on the above my question for A & A  is what makes a Tulpa different from any other personality that is adopted by a person. I.e. a sports person that gets in the zone.

*sigh*
Okay...lets get this straight.
A tulpa is not a personality, a tulpa has a personality.

Just like how you have a personality, doesn't mean you are just a personality.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Mrjason on September 27, 2013, 06:48:26 AM

Based on the above my question for A & A  is what makes a Tulpa different from any other personality that is adopted by a person. I.e. a sports person that gets in the zone.

Just like how you have a personality, doesn't mean you are just a personality.

My biological functions are practically indistinguishable from any other humans'. My physical being is not my individuality.
Cogito ergo sum.
A tulpa is not a personality, a tulpa has a personality.
what else does it have?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Anfauglir on September 27, 2013, 07:01:19 AM
]I'm trying to get a clear picture of the distinction between "fantasy friend", "tulpa", and "personality".  It would help perhaps if you gave your definitions of the three, and listed the ways in which they were dissimilar.
All the words are rather self explanatory.


No, they are not.  At least not how you appear to be using them.  Especially with reference to "personality"

It differs from MPD by being a separate process entirely, while MPD is simply several different personalities.

I'm wondering why you are shying away from defining what you see as the essential differences between "fantasy friend" and "tulpa", and between "person with a tulpa" and "person with MPD"?  I am, quite honestly, confused by the differece between the three things as you see them, and that's why I am asking you to define them.  Because at the moment, depending on which aspect you are trying to defend, you appear to be veering between "fantasy friend=tulpa" and "MPD=tulpa", as I noted here:

I'm no mental disorder know it all, but MPD is separate personalities, tulpae are essentially imaginary friends.

Its one of the precautions that stops tulpae (well, nasty bad tulpae) from taking over if they get pissed. Sadly, some people have apparently been taker over

A fantasy friend does not, can not, take over the body.  Yet tulpa can, which so far as I can tell puts them into the MPD category.  But you say they are not.  So I'm asking you to please define your terms clearly, and what the differences are.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 27, 2013, 07:22:27 AM

Based on the above my question for A & A  is what makes a Tulpa different from any other personality that is adopted by a person. I.e. a sports person that gets in the zone.

Just like how you have a personality, doesn't mean you are just a personality.

My biological functions are practically indistinguishable from any other humans'. My physical being is not my individuality.
Cogito ergo sum.

So that is all you have? A personality? You don't have anything else? Aha...

A tulpa is not a personality, a tulpa has a personality.
what else does it have?

A form, voice, emotions, etc. Generally all the human traits.


]I'm trying to get a clear picture of the distinction between "fantasy friend", "tulpa", and "personality".  It would help perhaps if you gave your definitions of the three, and listed the ways in which they were dissimilar.
All the words are rather self explanatory.


No, they are not.  At least not how you appear to be using them.  Especially with reference to "personality"

Personality defined as: The combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual's distinctive character.

It differs from MPD by being a separate process entirely, while MPD is simply several different personalities.

I'm wondering why you are shying away from defining what you see as the essential differences between "fantasy friend" and "tulpa", and between "person with a tulpa" and "person with MPD"?  I am, quite honestly, confused by the differece between the three things as you see them, and that's why I am asking you to define them.  Because at the moment, depending on which aspect you are trying to defend, you appear to be veering between "fantasy friend=tulpa" and "MPD=tulpa", as I noted here:

I was always against tulpae being MPD, im not sure where you got that from, my standing for quite some time has been that tulpae are similar to "fantasy friends" but more advanced. (Notice "similar" not "is a fantasy friend").

I'm no mental disorder know it all, but MPD is separate personalities, tulpae are essentially imaginary friends.

Its one of the precautions that stops tulpae (well, nasty bad tulpae) from taking over if they get pissed. Sadly, some people have apparently been taker over

A fantasy friend does not, can not, take over the body.  Yet tulpa can, which so far as I can tell puts them into the MPD category.  But you say they are not.  So I'm asking you to please define your terms clearly, and what the differences are.

Maybe because a tulpa is not a fantasy friend? I did state tulpae are more advanced, similar, but not the same.

MPD defined as: multiple personality disorder, is a mental disorder characterized by at least two distinct and relatively enduring identities or dissociated personality states that alternately control a person's behavior, and is accompanied by memory impairment for important information not explained by ordinary forgetfulness.

Tulpae normally do not control behaviors, or the body. Tulpae are also more than just a personality. Lastly MPD is just the person with a different personality, tulpae have (mostly) every aspect different.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Dante on September 27, 2013, 07:28:54 AM
Tulpae are also more than just a personality. Lastly MPD is just the person with a different personality, tulpae have (mostly) every aspect different.[/b]

What other differences, besides personality, does your tulpa have, exactly? Hair or eye color? Height? What?


Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Mrjason on September 27, 2013, 07:39:39 AM

Based on the above my question for A & A  is what makes a Tulpa different from any other personality that is adopted by a person. I.e. a sports person that gets in the zone.

Just like how you have a personality, doesn't mean you are just a personality.

My biological functions are practically indistinguishable from any other humans'. My physical being is not my individuality.
Cogito ergo sum.

So that is all you have? A personality? You don't have anything else? Aha...

That and a sack of meat with it's meaty needs. Everything else is driven by and given meaning by personality.

A tulpa is not a personality, a tulpa has a personality.
what else does it have?

A form, voice, emotions, etc. Generally all the human traits.


A form? what form, you have said that tulpae are brought into being as an abstract of yourself.

It has your voice. your emotions.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Quesi on September 27, 2013, 07:41:26 AM
Doesn't it seem like the human brain is somehow programmed to create these sorts of things?  From Native American spirit animals, to my own personal Jesus, to the imaginary friends who most children create, to AndA's tulpas, it seems like we have some sort of need to seek strength or advise or guidance from something outside of ourselves.

When my daughter was about 3, when I corrected her for making her "5"'s backwards, or when I suggested that she could build a block tower higher when it had a larger base, she would sometimes dismiss my suggestions, and explain that "cousin Lilly' had told her to do it the way she was doing it.  "Cousin Lilly" told her to do a lot of things.  Of course, we don't have a cousin Lilly.

Jesus gives personal advise to lots of Christians in turmoil, suggesting that they be patient, or change jobs, or buy lottery tickets or stay with abusive husbands.  Spirit animals gave Native Americans special insight into hunting or human interactions, or ways to blend into nature. 

And me?  When I have a complex ethical dilemma, or when I am having trouble prioritizing really important things in my life, I often imagine conversations with my dear, sweet, gentle father, who has been dead over a decade.  I present the issues to him, and in my mind, I hear his deep, slow voice, weighing the pros and cons of each set of options.  He never "tells" me what to do.  In real life, he always lead me to seek my own conclusions.  But I imagine his responses, and go through the process of an imaginary conversation with him, and often come up with the answer I was seeking.   

The cartoons of my childhood often depicted a devilish creature and an angelic creature, sitting on a character's shoulders and whispering in his ears, offering conflicting advice.  Don't know enough about Christianity to say whether this image is based in scriptures, or whether it is a literary creation or just a metaphor for a process of conflict resolution that so many of us can identify with. 

You want to play with a tulpa?  Ok.  I guess.  Me?  I'll just keep replaying imaginary conversations with my long-dead father in my head.  I do not need to create his personality.  It is the personality that was responsible for my ethical development, and it sometimes feels like the right place to go when I am in need. 

But don't let your tulpas or Jesus or your imaginary friends or some great power from beyond replace your human interactions. 


Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 27, 2013, 07:54:54 AM

A form? what form, you have said that tulpae are brought into being as an abstract of yourself.

It has your voice. your emotions.

I said no such thing, please be more careful in the future with quotes.

A tulpa has whatever form, voice, and emotions as you, or the tulpa, gives it.


What other differences, besides personality, does your tulpa have, exactly? Hair or eye color? Height? What?


For starters, Alexis looks like my avatar, and obviously i am not a pony.

Doesn't it seem like the human brain is somehow programmed to create these sorts of things?  From Native American spirit animals, to my own personal Jesus, to the imaginary friends who most children create, to AndA's tulpas, it seems like we have some sort of need to seek strength or advise or guidance from something outside of ourselves.

I did not create Alexis for strength, i did so for companionship and adventure. (And boredom, etc...)

When my daughter was about 3, when I corrected her for making her "5"'s backwards, or when I suggested that she could build a block tower higher when it had a larger base, she would sometimes dismiss my suggestions, and explain that "cousin Lilly' had told her to do it the way she was doing it.  "Cousin Lilly" told her to do a lot of things.  Of course, we don't have a cousin Lilly.

I would doubt a three year old has the ability to make a tulpa, more likely it was an imaginary friend.

Jesus gives personal advise to lots of Christians in turmoil, suggesting that they be patient, or change jobs, or buy lottery tickets or stay with abusive husbands.  Spirit animals gave Native Americans special insight into hunting or human interactions, or ways to blend into nature. 

And me?  When I have a complex ethical dilemma, or when I am having trouble prioritizing really important things in my life, I often imagine conversations with my dear, sweet, gentle father, who has been dead over a decade.  I present the issues to him, and in my mind, I hear his deep, slow voice, weighing the pros and cons of each set of options.  He never "tells" me what to do.  In real life, he always lead me to seek my own conclusions.  But I imagine his responses, and go through the process of an imaginary conversation with him, and often come up with the answer I was seeking.   

That is what tulpamancers call a "Servitor" AKA, a non-sentient tulpa who only can respond, not ask.

The cartoons of my childhood often depicted a devilish creature and an angelic creature, sitting on a character's shoulders and whispering in his ears, offering conflicting advice.  Don't know enough about Christianity to say whether this image is based in scriptures, or whether it is a literary creation or just a metaphor for a process of conflict resolution that so many of us can identify with.

I thought that symbolized how people have decisions, and must accept consequences _/o_o\_

You want to play with a tulpa?  Ok.  I guess.  Me?  I'll just keep replaying imaginary conversations with my long-dead father in my head.  I do not need to create his personality.  It is the personality that was responsible for my ethical development, and it sometimes feels like the right place to go when I am in need. 

Surprisingly enough, while playing with Alexis can be fun, it is also particularly hard to do.

But don't let your tulpas or Jesus or your imaginary friends or some great power from beyond replace your human interactions. 

Of course. While I am a bit odd, i would not ever replace people with tulpae. (well, maybe excluding one person...) I personally would like to spend time with Alexis when i am alone, not when i am in public.

Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Dante on September 27, 2013, 08:01:54 AM


What other differences, besides personality, does your tulpa have, exactly? Hair or eye color? Height? What?


For starters, Alexis looks like my avatar, and obviously i am not a pony.

Yeah. Sure you're not.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jdawg70 on September 27, 2013, 08:02:55 AM
So in your opinion, anything that exists in the mind, even the thought of Darth Vader equates to reality?
Well, yes, the thought of Darth Vader exists in reality.  But it is a thought about the fictional entity that is the dark lord of the Sith and has excellent control of the Force.

So I certainly do not deny you the reality of your thoughts that this 'tulpa' is a distinct entity.  I question the reality of the tulpa as a distinct entity.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Mrjason on September 27, 2013, 08:16:40 AM

A form? what form, you have said that tulpae are brought into being as an abstract of yourself.

It has your voice. your emotions.

I said no such thing, please be more careful in the future with quotes.

A tulpa has whatever form, voice, and emotions as you, or the tulpa, gives it.

Sorry, I'm confused. You did say to ask questions :D

You have just said that you give it form, as it doesn't have a physical presence are the voice and emotion and your mental image of a pony its form?

If so then it is an abstract concept created by yourself and is only real as an abstract


Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jdawg70 on September 27, 2013, 08:32:20 AM
I would doubt a three year old has the ability to make a tulpa, more likely it was an imaginary friend.
Explain why you doubt a three year old is incapable of making a tulpa.  Ideally, this explanation would be in the form of:
"In order to make a tulpa, one must be able to..."
"In order to make a tulpa, one must possess..."

Alternatively, you could also try:
"The differences between an imaginary friend and a tulpa are..."
Quote
That is what tulpamancers call a "Servitor" AKA, a non-sentient tulpa who only can respond, not ask.
This is what rational people call 'talking to one's self internally in order to help organize thoughts, concepts, and ideas'.
Quote
Surprisingly enough, while playing with Alexis can be fun, it is also particularly hard to do.
Why is it difficult?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 27, 2013, 08:59:34 AM
I would doubt a three year old has the ability to make a tulpa, more likely it was an imaginary friend.
Explain why you doubt a three year old is incapable of making a tulpa.  Ideally, this explanation would be in the form of:
"In order to make a tulpa, one must be able to...concentrate immensely."
"In order to make a tulpa, one must possess...good design skills."

These tend to help, but for all i know, a 3 year old can make a tulpa, but is unlikely.

Alternatively, you could also try:
"The differences between an imaginary friend and a tulpa are..."
Quote
That is what tulpamancers call a "Servitor" AKA, a non-sentient tulpa who only can respond, not ask.
This is what rational people call 'talking to one's self internally in order to help organize thoughts, concepts, and ideas'.

The quote did state that the voice answered by itself, thus not being normal self talk.

Quote
Surprisingly enough, while playing with Alexis can be fun, it is also particularly hard to do.
Why is it difficult?

Sometimes i find it hard to concentrate, at other times Alexis seems to be hibernating, sometimes she doesn't want to and instead just wants to be worked on.



A form? what form, you have said that tulpae are brought into being as an abstract of yourself.

It has your voice. your emotions.

I said no such thing, please be more careful in the future with quotes.

A tulpa has whatever form, voice, and emotions as you, or the tulpa, gives it.

Sorry, I'm confused. You did say to ask questions :D

You stated that i said something i did not, that is not a question. But please do ask something.

You have just said that you give it form, as it doesn't have a physical presence are the voice and emotion and your mental image of a pony its form?

You never asked, the topic is for questions after all ;P.

If so then it is an abstract concept created by yourself and is only real as an abstract

The tulpa concept is not my own, but tulpae are indeed creations.


So in your opinion, anything that exists in the mind, even the thought of Darth Vader equates to reality?
Well, yes, the thought of Darth Vader exists in reality.  But it is a thought about the fictional entity that is the dark lord of the Sith and has excellent control of the Force.

So I certainly do not deny you the reality of your thoughts that this 'tulpa' is a distinct entity.  I question the reality of the tulpa as a distinct entity.

Please understand that i am not saying tulpae are real in the sense of external reality, like a dog or a table. I am saying tulpae are existent mentally, like mind talk and imaginary friends. (That is, on the same realm, do not comprehend this as me saying tulpae ARE imaginary friends.)



What other differences, besides personality, does your tulpa have, exactly? Hair or eye color? Height? What?


For starters, Alexis looks like my avatar, and obviously i am not a pony.

Yeah. Sure you're not.

Oddly enough i sense sarcasm here...
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Mrjason on September 27, 2013, 09:11:35 AM
One of the tests to see if things are living is whether they reproduce. Do tulpa make other tulpa?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 27, 2013, 09:22:52 AM
One of the tests to see if things are living is whether they reproduce. Do tulpa make other tulpa?

I wouldn't say a tulpa is alive, unless you count the creator's body as well.
But according to some people, tulpae can make more tulpae. I am not sure if it needs the creators help or not.
Lastly, due to how long it takes to make a tulpa, i can only assume that a tulpa made tulpa would take perhaps years.

EDIT: http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/Thread-Tulpas

Here is a forum my uncle found somehow...worth a few minutes i guess?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Mrjason on September 27, 2013, 09:40:00 AM
One of the tests to see if things are living is whether they reproduce. Do tulpa make other tulpa?

I wouldn't say a tulpa is alive, unless you count the creator's body as well.

But you do say it is sentient and seperate from yourself. this would suggest life unless it is in fact a figment of your imagination.

But according to some people, tulpae can make more tulpae. I am not sure if it needs the creators help or not.
Lastly, due to how long it takes to make a tulpa, i can only assume that a tulpa made tulpa would take perhaps years.

If they can reproduce with or without the assent of the host this implies that tulpa are parasitic or, given that these beings are sentient, possibly malevolent
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jdawg70 on September 27, 2013, 09:44:40 AM
Please understand that i am not saying tulpae are real in the sense of external reality, like a dog or a table. I am saying tulpae are existent mentally, like mind talk and imaginary friends. (That is, on the same realm, do not comprehend this as me saying tulpae ARE imaginary friends.)
What you're talking about is that tulpa do not possess a corporeal form outside of yourself, but I would still contend that you are saying that a tulpa does exist as a part of reality.  In the same way that you exist as a part of reality - the 'you' we're referring to is your person, which is above and beyond simply your biology or your corporeal form.  You are your personality, your thoughts, your feelings.  That's what I mean by 'exist in reality'.

What I am questioning is that this 'tulpa' actually possesses an independent personality, independent thoughts, and independent feelings, and that you willfully instantiated such an entity.

However, while thinking through some of this a tangential question has arisen in my head:
I'm uncertain if it's possible for you to destroy this tulpa, but since we're in the world of hypotheticals we'll just assume that it is possible.
Would it be morally wrong for you to destroy Alexis?  If so, what is the moral transgression?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 27, 2013, 09:54:27 AM
One of the tests to see if things are living is whether they reproduce. Do tulpa make other tulpa?

I wouldn't say a tulpa is alive, unless you count the creator's body as well.

But you do say it is sentient and seperate from yourself. this would suggest life unless it is in fact a figment of your imagination.

But according to some people, tulpae can make more tulpae. I am not sure if it needs the creators help or not.
Lastly, due to how long it takes to make a tulpa, i can only assume that a tulpa made tulpa would take perhaps years.

If they can reproduce with or without the assent of the host this implies that tulpa are parasitic or, given that these beings are sentient, possibly malevolent

*sigh*
Lets get this straight...again...
TULPAE CAN'T DO THINGS UNLESS THEY ARE FIRST GIVEN THE ABILITY TO DO SO *consent* (generally).
You can give a tulpa the ability to make more, then it can make them automatically, although it is also possible that a tulpa can gain the power to do so automatically, they are kind of iffy.
And tulpae are not alive, that is like saying a sentient computer is alive, even if it can produce more computers.
EDIT: tulpae are as nice or mean as you make them, or as influences makes them. If a tulpa is evil, your probably going to want to dissolve it...asap...
Also, a tulpa is not a parasite, as the tulpa is not gaining anything, tulpae are more like a mutual relationship, with both parties gaining a bit from the other.

Please understand that i am not saying tulpae are real in the sense of external reality, like a dog or a table. I am saying tulpae are existent mentally, like mind talk and imaginary friends. (That is, on the same realm, do not comprehend this as me saying tulpae ARE imaginary friends.)
What you're talking about is that tulpa do not possess a corporeal form outside of yourself, but I would still contend that you are saying that a tulpa does exist as a part of reality.  In the same way that you exist as a part of reality - the 'you' we're referring to is your person, which is above and beyond simply your biology or your corporeal form.  You are your personality, your thoughts, your feelings.  That's what I mean by 'exist in reality'.

To put bluntly a tulpa would be similar to a person, just without the physical part, just a mental emulation.

What I am questioning is that this 'tulpa' actually possesses an independent personality, independent thoughts, and independent feelings, and that you willfully instantiated such an entity.

Then yes, a tulpa "exists" in reality.

However, while thinking through some of this a tangential question has arisen in my head:
I'm uncertain if it's possible for you to destroy this tulpa, but since we're in the world of hypotheticals we'll just assume that it is possible.
Would it be morally wrong for you to destroy Alexis?  If so, what is the moral transgression?

A tulpa generally cannot be "poofed away" like an imaginary friend, it takes a long time.
As for morals, i cannot make up my mind...while she is indeed just a part of my mind, we have also had some fun times together, i do not think it would be right to destroy her without a justified reason.

Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Mrjason on September 27, 2013, 10:02:51 AM

*sigh*
Lets get this straight...again...
TULPAE CAN'T DO THINGS UNLESS THEY ARE FIRST GIVEN THE ABILITY TO DO SO *consent* (generally).
You can give a tulpa the ability to make more, then it can make them automatically,

so you have to progamme them to reproduce

although it is also possible that a tulpa can gain the power to do so automatically, they are kind of iffy.

but they can also gain the ability automatically.

Got it.

And tulpae are not alive,

so it isn't a being that is seperate from yourself. Imaginary friend then. I agree.

that is like saying a sentient computer is alive, even if it can produce more computers.


would a sentient self-replicating machine not be alive?

Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 27, 2013, 10:09:48 AM

*sigh*
Lets get this straight...again...
TULPAE CAN'T DO THINGS UNLESS THEY ARE FIRST GIVEN THE ABILITY TO DO SO *consent* (generally).
You can give a tulpa the ability to make more, then it can make them automatically,

so you have to progamme them to reproduce

Generally yes, often it can be as simple as saying "you can now do "X" " so programming them is not necessary, tulpae dislike being altered.

although it is also possible that a tulpa can gain the power to do so automatically, they are kind of iffy.

but they can also gain the ability automatically.

Got it.

A great example on automatically gaining abilities is how Alexis (annoyingly) chose her form, yet i had other plans.

And tulpae are not alive,

so it isn't a being that is seperate from yourself. Imaginary friend then. I agree.

Not separate from the mind, but instead shares it. Although its traits are generally different than the creators.

that is like saying a sentient computer is alive, even if it can produce more computers.


would a sentient self-replicating machine not be alive?

It would fit the needed criteria, but would lack the biological part...

Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jdawg70 on September 27, 2013, 10:12:19 AM
A tulpa generally cannot be "poofed away" like an imaginary friend, it takes a long time.
As for morals, i cannot make up my mind...while she is indeed just a part of my mind, we have also had some fun times together, i do not think it would be right to destroy her without a justified reason.

Frankly I'm unconvinced that you believe a tulpa to be an independent entity with independent thoughts, feelings, and emotions.  First you readily admit that 'she' is indeed just a part of your mind.  Secondly, can you make up your mind as to whether or not it would be moral to destroy, say, your next door neighbor?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Mrjason on September 27, 2013, 10:17:54 AM
A tulpa generally cannot be "poofed away" like an imaginary friend, it takes a long time.
As for morals, i cannot make up my mind...while she is indeed just a part of my mind, we have also had some fun times together, i do not think it would be right to destroy her without a justified reason.

Frankly I'm unconvinced that you believe a tulpa to be an independent entity with independent thoughts, feelings, and emotions.  First you readily admit that 'she' is indeed just a part of your mind.  Secondly, can you make up your mind as to whether or not it would be moral to destroy, say, your next door neighbor?

Crazy or POE?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 27, 2013, 10:21:58 AM
A tulpa generally cannot be "poofed away" like an imaginary friend, it takes a long time.
As for morals, i cannot make up my mind...while she is indeed just a part of my mind, we have also had some fun times together, i do not think it would be right to destroy her without a justified reason.

Frankly I'm unconvinced that you believe a tulpa to be an independent entity with independent thoughts, feelings, and emotions.  First you readily admit that 'she' is indeed just a part of your mind.  Secondly, can you make up your mind as to whether or not it would be moral to destroy, say, your next door neighbor?

*sarcasm on*
Sure, to hell with my neighbors, why not nuke them from orbit to make sure?
*sarcasm off*

Come on, what would any non-murderous person do to their neighbors?...
Also, read up on parallel processing, allows 2 things to run in one package.
Also, i never said they are independent, tulpae rely on their creators to keep them functional, via talking to them, working on them, etc.
They do however have their own feeling and such.

Crazy or POE?

POE? O.o What does that (acronym?) mean?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jaimehlers on September 27, 2013, 10:34:11 AM
It differs from MPD by being a separate process entirely, while MPD is simply several different personalities.
I wanted to single this out, because I feel that there's an important point being missed here.  Why would a second (or third, or fourth...) personality not also be a "separate process" within the brain?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 27, 2013, 10:36:48 AM
It differs from MPD by being a separate process entirely, while MPD is simply several different personalities.
I wanted to single this out, because I feel that there's an important point being missed here.  Why would a second (or third, or fourth...) personality not also be a "separate process" within the brain?

While they would be different processes, they would only contain a personality, not an entire tulpa.
Hence the difference.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jdawg70 on September 27, 2013, 11:11:10 AM
*sarcasm on*
Sure, to hell with my neighbors, why not nuke them from orbit to make sure?
*sarcasm off*

Come on, what would any non-murderous person do to their neighbors?...
Then why wasn't the answer so obvious in regards to a tulpa?  Your tulpa has it's own feelings, emotions, personality, etc.  Feelings, emotions, and personality that are not you.  Shouldn't that really have been enough information for you to readily say 'in general, it would be immoral to destroy a tulpa' in the same way you'd say 'in general, it would be immoral to destroy my neighbor'.
Quote
Also, read up on parallel processing, allows 2 things to run in one package.
Alrighty...computing analogy time.  Maybe we can get on the same page that way.

Let's go with your brain being the equivalent of a computer.  You're rockin' an brand spankin' new Haswell i7 with all of the trimmings.

Now this computer is running a host OS of some kind.  It's really nothing more than a hypervisor - it's got some capabilities to talk to some of the low-level hardware, and runs a copy of VirtualBox or VMware or whatever.  Now, there is at least 1 virtual machine, running AngusOS (you).  AngusOS has a few different programs and applications running on it, like the KDE desktop, drivers for an NVidia GPU, drivers for a SoundBlaster 16 (because you're old-skool and badass), several cron jobs that process incoming data and output some type of response, etc.

The totality of software that is AngusOS is an independent entity.  AngusOS will run the same way regardless of whether it is running on this hypervisor, a different hypervisor, your i7, someone else's i5 or A10-5750M, etc.

Now, as I understand it, you are claiming that a second virtual machine running AlexisOS exists and is running in the same hypervisor that AngusOS is running.  AlexisOS has it's own set of programs...maybe it's running the Xfce desktop, using drivers for an Intel GPU, drivers for a Turtle Beach sound card (because AlexisOS is also old-skool but in a completely different way), a different set of cron jobs, etc.

The programs running in AngusOS and AlexisOS comprise feelings, emotions, and personality.

Is this analogy to tulpa valid?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 27, 2013, 11:21:36 AM
*sarcasm on*
Sure, to hell with my neighbors, why not nuke them from orbit to make sure?
*sarcasm off*

Come on, what would any non-murderous person do to their neighbors?...
Then why wasn't the answer so obvious in regards to a tulpa?  Your tulpa has it's own feelings, emotions, personality, etc.  Feelings, emotions, and personality that are not you.  Shouldn't that really have been enough information for you to readily say 'in general, it would be immoral to destroy a tulpa' in the same way you'd say 'in general, it would be immoral to destroy my neighbor'.

Because if you kill your neighbor, many others will care, if you dissolve a tulpa, only you should care. Not that i am saying your should dissolve tulpae, but the option is there...just in case...

Quote
Also, read up on parallel processing, allows 2 things to run in one package.
Alrighty...computing analogy time.  Maybe we can get on the same page that way.

Let's go with your brain being the equivalent of a computer.  You're rockin' an brand spankin' new Haswell i7 with all of the trimmings.

Now this computer is running a host OS of some kind.  It's really nothing more than a hypervisor - it's got some capabilities to talk to some of the low-level hardware, and runs a copy of VirtualBox or VMware or whatever.  Now, there is at least 1 virtual machine, running AngusOS (you).  AngusOS has a few different programs and applications running on it, like the KDE desktop, drivers for an NVidia GPU, drivers for a SoundBlaster 16 (because you're old-skool and badass), several cron jobs that process incoming data and output some type of response, etc.

The totality of software that is AngusOS is an independent entity.  AngusOS will run the same way regardless of whether it is running on this hypervisor, a different hypervisor, your i7, someone else's i5 or A10-5750M, etc.

Not really, the processor would determine its speed, its stability ,etc. *nitpicking*

Now, as I understand it, you are claiming that a second virtual machine running AlexisOS exists and is running in the same hypervisor that AngusOS is running.  AlexisOS has it's own set of programs...maybe it's running the Xfce desktop, using drivers for an Intel GPU, drivers for a Turtle Beach sound card (because AlexisOS is also old-skool but in a completely different way), a different set of cron jobs, etc.

Sounds right, but the tulpa still uses the same brain, so the hardware would need to be the same, the software could change however.

The programs running in AngusOS and AlexisOS comprise feelings, emotions, and personality.

Is this analogy to tulpa valid?

Seems alright, not particularly the best computer guy out there, but the analogy seems fitting.

Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jdawg70 on September 27, 2013, 03:30:02 PM
Angus and Alexis, please work on your quoting.  Fixing it nearly every time I respond to you is getting a little frustrating.  You'll get the hang of it; just make liberal use of the 'Preview' button.

Now...

Because if you kill your neighbor, many others will care, if you dissolve a tulpa, only you should care. Not that i am saying your should dissolve tulpae, but the option is there...just in case...
So...killing a homeless person who has no relationships - not a problem?  If that is also a moral failing, why so?
Quote
Not really, the processor would determine its speed, its stability ,etc. *nitpicking*
Sounds right, but the tulpa still uses the same brain, so the hardware would need to be the same, the software could change however.
Seems alright, not particularly the best computer guy out there, but the analogy seems fitting.
So I guess I'm getting more confused at this point.  You seem to be leaning towards your biology (hardware) being an essential part of who you are.  If that's the case, and the tulpa 'runs' on your exact biology (hardware), in what way is a tulpa not merely an extension of you?  I mean, that, coupled with:
Quote
*sigh*
Lets get this straight...again...
TULPAE CAN'T DO THINGS UNLESS THEY ARE FIRST GIVEN THE ABILITY TO DO SO *consent* (generally).
You can give a tulpa the ability to make more, then it can make them automatically, although it is also possible that a tulpa can gain the power to do so automatically, they are kind of iffy.
And tulpae are not alive, that is like saying a sentient computer is alive, even if it can produce more computers.
EDIT: tulpae are as nice or mean as you make them, or as influences makes them. If a tulpa is evil, your probably going to want to dissolve it...asap...
Alexis can't do anything without your consent.
Alexis' traits are entirely dependent on you.
Alexis must run on the same biology as you.
Alexis exists because you made her exist.
It's just becoming increasingly difficult ascertaining exactly how a 'Alexis' isn't just 'you'.

Ultimately, though, I think the main problem here is that you simply haven't thought this whole thing through yourself.  Sentences such as:
Quote
Also, a tulpa is not a parasite, as the tulpa is not gaining anything, tulpae are more like a mutual relationship, with both parties gaining a bit from the other.
seem to indicate that you're trying to answer questions on the fly without serious thought behind the answers.  Seriously - there are only 11 words that happen between you declaring that a tulpa doesn't gain anything and the tulpa does gain something.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 27, 2013, 07:35:48 PM
Angus and Alexis, please work on your quoting.  Fixing it nearly every time I respond to you is getting a little frustrating.  You'll get the hang of it; just make liberal use of the 'Preview' button.

What?...

Now...

Because if you kill your neighbor, many others will care, if you dissolve a tulpa, only you should care. Not that i am saying your should dissolve tulpae, but the option is there...just in case...
So...killing a homeless person who has no relationships - not a problem?  If that is also a moral failing, why so?

Damn, ii dug myself in a hole...Hmm...I would say that being that i am against just dissolving tulpae, the option should only be used in emergencies.

Quote
Not really, the processor would determine its speed, its stability ,etc. *nitpicking*
Sounds right, but the tulpa still uses the same brain, so the hardware would need to be the same, the software could change however.
Seems alright, not particularly the best computer guy out there, but the analogy seems fitting.
So I guess I'm getting more confused at this point.  You seem to be leaning towards your biology (hardware) being an essential part of who you are.  If that's the case, and the tulpa 'runs' on your exact biology (hardware), in what way is a tulpa not merely an extension of you?  I mean, that, coupled with:

I find that my biology makes me unique, yes.
I am not sure how that equates to a tulpa being an extension of you however.


Quote
*sigh*
Lets get this straight...again...
TULPAE CAN'T DO THINGS UNLESS THEY ARE FIRST GIVEN THE ABILITY TO DO SO *consent* (generally).
You can give a tulpa the ability to make more, then it can make them automatically, although it is also possible that a tulpa can gain the power to do so automatically, they are kind of iffy.
And tulpae are not alive, that is like saying a sentient computer is alive, even if it can produce more computers.
EDIT: tulpae are as nice or mean as you make them, or as influences makes them. If a tulpa is evil, your probably going to want to dissolve it...asap...
Alexis can't do anything without your consent.
Alexis' traits are entirely dependent on you.
Alexis must run on the same biology as you.
Alexis exists because you made her exist.
It's just becoming increasingly difficult ascertaining exactly how a 'Alexis' isn't just 'you'.

Wrong, i did state that tulpae are capable of doing things themselves, and often start doing so automatically without consent. Secondly, am i a pony? (Y/N), is my personality somehow not my own? (Y/N), do i lack a physical presence? (Y/N), etc. Lastly, as i have said before, tulpae are not entirely separate, please stop bringing it up.

Ultimately, though, I think the main problem here is that you simply haven't thought this whole thing through yourself.  Sentences such as:
Quote
Also, a tulpa is not a parasite, as the tulpa is not gaining anything, tulpae are more like a mutual relationship, with both parties gaining a bit from the other.
seem to indicate that you're trying to answer questions on the fly without serious thought behind the answers.  Seriously - there are only 11 words that happen between you declaring that a tulpa doesn't gain anything and the tulpa does gain something.

Yeah, my wording was wrong (i guess that happens when its late and im tired...), i think i was trying to point out that tulpae don't get everything, thus not a parasite.

Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Jag on September 27, 2013, 10:22:33 PM
Maybe this will help?

Angus and Alexis, please work on your quoting.  Fixing it nearly every time I respond to you is getting a little frustrating.  You'll get the hang of it; just make liberal use of the 'Preview' button.

Quote
What?...

Now...

Your formatting needs work. In the Dead Zone (last group in the forum index), there's an topic called Test Area. Practice a bit in there until you get the hang of it, your just misplacing a few keystrokes that will make a big difference if you get them in the right places.

There's a tutorial on quoting as well in the top group, complete with screen shots on exactly how to do it right. It really will help if you can get it down - I'm assuming that jdawg has been going through your posts and correcting the formatting in order to reply to them.

Notice that the above quotes from your post looks different than the way you posted it? That's what he's talking about.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 27, 2013, 11:04:11 PM
Maybe this will help?

Angus and Alexis, please work on your quoting.  Fixing it nearly every time I respond to you is getting a little frustrating.  You'll get the hang of it; just make liberal use of the 'Preview' button.

Quote
What?...
Now...

Your formatting needs work. In the Dead Zone (last group in the forum index), there's an topic called Test Area. Practice a bit in there until you get the hang of it, your just misplacing a few keystrokes that will make a big difference if you get them in the right places.

There's a tutorial on quoting as well in the top group, complete with screen shots on exactly how to do it right. It really will help if you can get it down - I'm assuming that jdawg has been going through your posts and correcting the formatting in order to reply to them.

Notice that the above quotes from your post looks different than the way you posted it? That's what he's talking about.

They look fine to me, what issue is present?
EDIT: just realised i got a -1 "darwin" Woot.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: wright on September 27, 2013, 11:23:18 PM
They look fine to me, what issue is present?
EDIT: just realised i got a -1 "darwin" Woot.

In replying to another's post, your replies shouldn't be enclosed as part of the quote (the shaded blocks), but apart. As my reply here is distinct from my copy of your post above. Bolding your replies is better than nothing, but setting them apart (outside quotes entirely) makes it even clearer who is replying to whom. Hope that helps.

It took me awhile to get the hang of it too, but it isn't very hard. All we have to judge each other here with are our words, so clearly formatting replies shows a measure of courtesy and respect.

Please note that I don't mean I think you've been disrespectful, just that learning to format according to forum standards is a further sign of courtesy.

And don't assign too much significance to Darwins, positive or negative. The use of them varies quite a bit by forum members. I tend to hand out pluses relatively freely (I awarded two in the last hour or so) and negatives hardly ever. Others use them more sparingly.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 27, 2013, 11:50:27 PM
They look fine to me, what issue is present?
EDIT: just realised i got a -1 "darwin" Woot.

In replying to another's post, your replies shouldn't be enclosed as part of the quote (the shaded blocks), but apart. As my reply here is distinct from my copy of your post above. Bolding your replies is better than nothing, but setting them apart (outside quotes entirely) makes it even clearer who is replying to whom. Hope that helps.

It took me awhile to get the hang of it too, but it isn't very hard. All we have to judge each other here with are our words, so clearly formatting replies shows a measure of courtesy and respect.

Please note that I don't mean I think you've been disrespectful, just that learning to format according to forum standards is a further sign of courtesy.

And don't assign too much significance to Darwins, positive or negative. The use of them varies quite a bit by forum members. I tend to hand out pluses relatively freely (I awarded two in the last hour or so) and negatives hardly ever. Others use them more sparingly.

Ehh, when it comes to answering several questions at once, i cant be bothered having to quote each one...efficiency ftw.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: wright on September 28, 2013, 12:06:44 AM
Ehh, when it comes to answering several questions at once, i cant be bothered having to quote each one...efficiency ftw.

Not a very polite attitude for a newcomer. If you're really in that much of a hurry, then just post one or two replies at a go; there's no forum rule that states you have to answer every last question in every post. And again, once you get the hang of it, formatting clearly really doesn't take much effort.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Anfauglir on September 28, 2013, 12:52:29 AM
Ehh, when it comes to answering several questions at once, i cant be bothered having to quote each one...efficiency ftw.

Well, let me put it this way.  You have already  been told by one Mod - Greybeard - to use the quote function correctly.  Now I - also in my mod capacity - am telling you again.  You will use the quote function correctly, please.  That means separating out your responses, NOT putting them in bold inside the quoted text.  (In case you weren't aware, when addressed in green bold text, it means we are acting in our Moderator capacity.

The quoting tutorial can be found here (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,16778.0.html) - please review it before posting please.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 28, 2013, 01:17:30 AM
Ehh, when it comes to answering several questions at once, i cant be bothered having to quote each one...efficiency ftw.

Well, let me put it this way.  You have already  been told by one Mod - Greybeard - to use the quote function correctly.  Now I - also in my mod capacity - am telling you again.  You will use the quote function correctly, please.  That means separating out your responses, NOT putting them in bold inside the quoted text.  (In case you weren't aware, when addressed in green bold text, it means we are acting in our Moderator capacity.

The quoting tutorial can be found here (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,16778.0.html) - please review it before posting please.


I have found no posts where Greybeard warned me to quote.
But, as you wish, i will quote correctly now.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jaimehlers on September 28, 2013, 01:24:00 AM
He didn't warn you - he asked you to learn how to use quotes.  Since it was inside a quote block, I can see why you might have missed it.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 28, 2013, 06:03:36 AM
He didn't warn you - he asked you to learn how to use quotes.  Since it was inside a quote block, I can see why you might have missed it.

Ahh, okay then, that is likely why i missed it.

Anyway, enough derailment with how quotes should be made.

Any other questions.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Zankuu on September 28, 2013, 02:32:19 PM
I've read this thread in it's entirety twice now, and I still don't see the difference between forming a tulpa and inducing a type of controlled auditory and visual Schizophrenia.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 28, 2013, 09:16:10 PM
I've read this thread in it's entirety twice now, and I still don't see the difference between forming a tulpa and inducing a type of controlled auditory and visual Schizophrenia.

Schizophrenia normally cannot be disabled, and normally cannot be destroyed without external help.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jynnan tonnix on September 28, 2013, 10:01:38 PM
But other than that...the purported "Tulpa"...From everything I have read, there seems to be nothing that supports the idea of it being, in fact, an entity in and of itself.

I read a lot of the link you gave the other day, and while there was a lot of talk about how creating a Tulpa is a life-long responsibility, because if you turn your back on it, the Tulpa will have no one to interact with, etc, there is still nothing there which actually leads toward the notion that it does, in fact, have its own consciousness, and is not a manifestation in your own mind of some sort of self-hypnosis, where it might be able to find things in your memory which you had forgotten, or to hold, even initiate conversations and whatnot...but if you WERE to decide to stop interacting with it, other than there being withdrawal of the kind which comes with any addiction, there would be no actual entity punished, abused or destroyed. It might scar your own psyche a bit, no doubt feeling a guilt akin to disowning your own child or best friend, but I simply cannot fathom the notion of the Tulpa itself having enough self-awareness to feel any suffering of its own. Any suffering you might sense would be your own reaction to what you felt was a betrayal.

There is also the fact that, according to your profile, you are only 15...and that alone comes with all sorts of obsessions and abilities which we later grow out of.
As I mentioned in a previous post, there is a lot about this which is really heart-wrenching when it happens, and that's why I am not condemning this whole practice...it seems that there might be a lot of good which could come with the achievement of that sort of control of the imaginitive centers of your mind...but it also puts you on an emotional level which many of us have long since lived through and discovered that while the loss of some of that credulity, innocence and creativity can be a painful thing, many of the ideas which consumed us back then really don't have a lot to do with reality.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 28, 2013, 10:50:58 PM
But other than that...the purported "Tulpa"...From everything I have read, there seems to be nothing that supports the idea of it being, in fact, an entity in and of itself.

I read a lot of the link you gave the other day, and while there was a lot of talk about how creating a Tulpa is a life-long responsibility, because if you turn your back on it, the Tulpa will have no one to interact with, etc, there is still nothing there which actually leads toward the notion that it does, in fact, have its own consciousness, and is not a manifestation in your own mind of some sort of self-hypnosis, where it might be able to find things in your memory which you had forgotten, or to hold, even initiate conversations and whatnot...but if you WERE to decide to stop interacting with it, other than there being withdrawal of the kind which comes with any addiction, there would be no actual entity punished, abused or destroyed. It might scar your own psyche a bit, no doubt feeling a guilt akin to disowning your own child or best friend, but I simply cannot fathom the notion of the Tulpa itself having enough self-awareness to feel any suffering of its own. Any suffering you might sense would be your own reaction to what you felt was a betrayal.

There is also the fact that, according to your profile, you are only 15...and that alone comes with all sorts of obsessions and abilities which we later grow out of.
As I mentioned in a previous post, there is a lot about this which is really heart-wrenching when it happens, and that's why I am not condemning this whole practice...it seems that there might be a lot of good which could come with the achievement of that sort of control of the imaginitive centers of your mind...but it also puts you on an emotional level which many of us have long since lived through and discovered that while the loss of some of that credulity, innocence and creativity can be a painful thing, many of the ideas which consumed us back then really don't have a lot to do with reality.


I'm 16 actually. (July 10th 1997)
And your post was rather a derailment, as the topic is for asking questions, not making statements.
Lastly, where is every one here coming up with "A tulpa is not a separate entity."?
I have stated several times that i agree, so why bring it up even more? Do you want me to lie or something? I don't know.
But I do believe that tulpae are distinct, in some form, neuroscience is odd...
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Anfauglir on September 29, 2013, 02:28:37 AM
Lastly, where is every one here coming up with "A tulpa is not a separate entity."?
I have stated several times that i agree, so why bring it up even more?

You are positive that a tulpa is not a separate entity, okay.

Is that your "final answer"?

I have been back through all five pages of this thread  to see if there was something I had missed – and the amount of contradiction I found was quite incredible.
On the one hand, you assert that tulpa are “simply” an advanced fantasy friend, not a separate entity. (all bolds mine)
Quote from: Angus and Alexis
.....A tulpa is a fantasy friend.....
.....A tulpa is always going to be you, it cannot just split your brain in half like some kind of messed up parasite.....
.....tulpae are more advanced than imaginary friends, i never said they were exactly the same......
.....I was always against tulpae being MPD.....
.....tulpae are existent mentally, like mind talk and imaginary friends.....
.....And tulpae are not alive, that is like saying a sentient computer is alive.....
.....tulpae are as nice or mean as you make them, or as influences makes them.....
.....tulpae are not entirely separate, please stop bringing it up......
.....TULPAE CAN'T DO THINGS UNLESS THEY ARE FIRST GIVEN THE ABILITY TO DO SO *consent*.....

All well and good – it’s a souped-up imaginary friend, not alive, not capable of taking over, not a separate entity.  But then there is all of this:

Quote from: Angus and Alexis
.....Tulpae are fully self aware (when completed) and are capable of self action.....
.....A tulpa can feel love.....
.....It has as much (motor control) as you allow it to have...generally........
.....According to some on the tulpa forums, (it can become the dominant personality).....
.....A tulpa can apparently lock you in your mind.....
.....Tulpae can be given any traits the creator wants, but tulpae will almost always deviate from the wanted traits......
.....They can affect the creator.....
.....they can make an almost exact sensation of touch to their creators.....
.....Sadly, some people have apparently been taker over......
.....if it isn't sentient, it is not a tulpa......
.....Tulpae are potentially dangerous, yes......
.....a tulpa has a personality, A form, voice, emotions, etc. Generally all the human traits......
.....tulpae dislike being altered......
.....Alexis (annoyingly) chose her form, yet i had other plans......
.....tulpae are capable of doing things themselves, and often start doing so automatically without consent.....

Read back through this second set of quotes, and explain in what way exactly all those traits (all your own words) mean the tulpa is NOT a separate and distinct entity?  How they are SO dissimilar from a person with MPD?

Because what you have said there is that a tulpa, that "intelligence" you have created, can make its own decisions, dislike being forced to change, has a full personality with all human traits, are self-aware, capable of taking action on their own, can affect the creator, take them over, and lock them in their own mind.  So please - explain how a tulpa is NOT a separate entity, because anything that has all those abilities sounds exactly like a separate entity to me.

 If you stand behind that second bunch of your quotes, then at the VERY least you are creating something that is indistinguishable from MPD.  A specifically dangerous second entity, as "alive" and conscious and sentient as any one of us, with independent will and desire, and the ability to bring itself to the fore and take over your body. 

Creating a tulpa is possibly the most stupid and dangerous activity you can take within your own mind, if they are as real as you imply.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 29, 2013, 04:14:58 AM
Lastly, where is every one here coming up with "A tulpa is not a separate entity."?
I have stated several times that i agree, so why bring it up even more?

You are positive that a tulpa is not a separate entity, okay.

Is that your "final answer"?

I revoke my previous statement, a tulpa is a separate entity.


Read back through this second set of quotes, and explain in what way exactly all those traits (all your own words) mean the tulpa is NOT a separate and distinct entity?  How they are SO dissimilar from a person with MPD?

Because what you have said there is that a tulpa, that "intelligence" you have created, can make its own decisions, dislike being forced to change, has a full personality with all human traits, are self-aware, capable of taking action on their own, can affect the creator, take them over, and lock them in their own mind.  So please - explain how a tulpa is NOT a separate entity, because anything that has all those abilities sounds exactly like a separate entity to me.

 If you stand behind that second bunch of your quotes, then at the VERY least you are creating something that is indistinguishable from MPD.  A specifically dangerous second entity, as "alive" and conscious and sentient as any one of us, with independent will and desire, and the ability to bring itself to the fore and take over your body. 

Creating a tulpa is possibly the most stupid and dangerous activity you can take within your own mind, if they are as real as you imply.

Yeah, I should of researched more before typing utter garbage...Sorry...
Anyway, this link might clear some stuff up, written by more experienced people and what not...
http://wiki.tulpa.info/Official/WhatIsATulpa
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Graybeard on September 29, 2013, 08:17:43 AM
I keep returning to this thread with the horrid fascination of someone who can’t help lifting the Bandaid to look at a suppurating abscess.

The entire premise is a construct:

Person with too much time and too little brain entertainment thinks of something.
Said person moves to the next level and convinces himself that his own thoughts are independent of his own mind.
Said person then tells others.
He then receives objection/explanations
He is so wrapped up in his own thoughts and so unwilling to abandon an idea that is getting him so much attention that he starts “explaining”.
He has complete freedom to “explain” as there are absolutely no restrictions, no matter how ludicrous, upon the form of the new personality: it can do anything and can defy all known laws.
It does not dawn on him that the whole construction is unfalsifiable.
Rather than realise that the unfalsifiable is not true, he concludes the opposite: “The unfalsifiable must be true.”
Said person now possesses a paradigm shifting revelation and finds it his holy and messianic mission to tell the world.

Of such things is madness made.

A short parable:

Two students lived in a flat. When the first returned, the second told him that there had been a robbery. The second explained that a man had come to the door and said that he had come to repair the video-recorder.

The first observed that they did not have a video-recorder. The second replied that the man seemed to know a lot about video-recorders, so he let him in.

The first observed again that they did not have a video-recorder. The second replied that the man had specified a VHS video-recorder.

The first observed again that they did not have a video-recorder. The second replied that the man had many tools and much equipment to repair video-recorders.

The first observed again that they did not have a video-recorder. The second replied that the man had gone straight to the televison – the very place where a VHS video-recorder would be.

The first observed again that they did not have a video-recorder. The second replied that the man diagnosed the problem of poor reception on the TV as being down to video-recorder problems.

The first observed again that they did not have a video-recorder. The second replied that this was the whole problem.

The first observed that the man who came had taken the TV, computers, cameras, money and other valuables. The second said the first was missing the point.

The moral is that nature has equipped some people with critical thinking skills and to encourage the improvement of the species, those who lack them are penalised by what can be broadly described as a tax on stupidity. Unfortunately, as a result of stupidity, we all have to pay this tax.

Here in this thread, we are playing along with a deluded premise. Are we paying stupidity tax?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 29, 2013, 09:42:34 AM
*snip*

Isn't that a tad bit harsh?
First off, you're assuming i am an idiot.
Secondly it is off topic. (By a moderator i might add.)
Lastly, this is the chatter section of the forum, its made for anything, right?

EDIT: I might add, how exactly does a tulpa is defies laws, what laws? I mean, the brain can do all kinds of crazy stuff, for example, there is a guy who can raise his body temperature using his mind, then there is all the other kinds of *sic* mental disorders that lead to normally impossible things (MPD, schizophrenia, etc).
I must admit it is only fair for you to post such things, but I did not come here as a "messiah" of tulpae (how would that even work?). I only wanted a nice Q&A...
If you feel like you must, lock this thread, its been derailed long enough anyway...I guess i will just start posting atheist stuff...
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jynnan tonnix on September 29, 2013, 03:04:48 PM


I'm 16 actually. (July 10th 1997)
And your post was rather a derailment, as the topic is for asking questions, not making statements.
Lastly, where is every one here coming up with "A tulpa is not a separate entity."?
I have stated several times that i agree, so why bring it up even more? Do you want me to lie or something? I don't know.
But I do believe that tulpae are distinct, in some form, neuroscience is odd...

Fifteen or sixteen, my point still stands. You are very young, and your mind still has a lot of maturing ahead of it. You may be fairly intelligent for your age, but a mid-teen nonetheless.

As for a statement "derailing" the thread, I'm not sure you really have a case for that. A statement, in this case, can easily be turned to a question without really altering anything. If I had prefaced my post with, "the way it sounds to me", and followed it up with "is that right, or does it make sense at all?", would that have made a difference? You can still answer the points made.

As for whether or not this thread should be locked (as you bring up in a further post), I don't know. There's still a lot which is interesting about the premise, and it could probably be discussed with or without you. As long as you keep contradicting yourself in your statements as much as you have been, there isn't much we can really learn from you specifically about the theories of Tulpae. Not that there seems to be much in the way of concrete ideas of what they are anyway. One of the links you posted said something to the effect that there was probably a different idea of exactly what a Tulpa was for every person who had played with creating one. Hmm...sounds just like Jesus. 

Anyway, no one has particularly been attacking you. Even Greybeard's recent post only stated that you seemed to have too much time on your hands and not a lot of serious thinking required of you, so you decided to play this Tulpa game and got a little overly wrapped up in it. This does not equate to assuming you are an idiot. As I said before, just the fact that you are still so young makes this sort of obsession a very common scenario.

Would you agree? (there, I made it a question).
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Graybeard on September 29, 2013, 06:46:49 PM
*snip*

Isn't that a tad bit harsh?
No, not really. You and I both know that "tulpae" are a construct. Both of us know they are unfalsifiable. I have made points and asked questions before and you ignored them. Were you "off topic" or just ignoring?

Whatever your answer, it is a comment on [wiki]tulpa[/wiki]e. Believing this sort of thing that originated with illiterate and superstitious peasants who live in an oxygen-deprived area is unlikely to advance the cause of mankind. It seems one step behind the basics of Christianity.

Quote
First off, you're assuming i am an idiot.
Your spelling and vocabulary seem OK, your ability to explain the inexplicable is on song. Idiots usually have simpler delusions. I can't recall saying your an idiot.

Quote
Secondly it is off topic. (By a moderator i might add.)

How so? It's about tulpae. I am only a mod when I'm writing in green.

Quote
Lastly, this is the chatter section of the forum, its made for anything, right?

I think your analysis has let you down. If it is about anything then why is my post not "anything"? and how could it be "off-topic"?

Quote
EDIT: I might add, how exactly does a tulpa is defies laws, what laws?

Can we call it "the concept of tulpae? Is that OK with you? I mention this because if we don't someone will start thinking that they are real. Right: here's the magic and the defiance of physical laws:

From Wiki
Quote
Tulpa [...] often translated as "magical emanation",[3] "conjured thing" [4] and "phantom" [5] is a concept in mysticism of a being or object which is created through sheer spiritual or mental discipline alone. It is defined in Indian Buddhist texts as any unreal, illusory or mind created apparition. According to Alexandra David-Néel, tulpas are "magic formations generated by a powerful concentration of thought." It is a materialized thought that has taken physical form and is usually regarded as synonymous to a thoughtform.[6]

More magic there than in Hogwarts, isn't there?

Quote
I mean, the brain can do all kinds of crazy stuff,

Were I to look for proof that the brain can do crazy stuff, I need only look for a defence or explanation of tulpae ; )

But on a more logical note, your sentence just above and the ones following (below), are simply saying "Wow! Who knows what the brain can do? No-one right?
Therefore there are tulpae/gods/pixies/ghosts/etc." It is the fallacy of the appeal to ignorance[1]and it doesn't wash.

Quote
[...] then there is all the other kinds of *sic* mental disorders that lead to normally impossible things (MPD, schizophrenia, etc).
Mental disorders do not lead to "normally impossible things." Untreated, they can be a serious illness that makes people believe they can do, and/or are experience, what you and I would call "normally impossible things" or, more technically, a delusion. Any "magic" is purely a subjective part of a delusional process. I cite tulpae as a prime example of what may be a self-induced delusion.

Quote
I did not come here as a "messiah" of tulpae (how would that even work?).

Well, you could start a thread that offered to answer questions about tulpae - Try a Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon who "just wants to answer your questions about Jesus." The word you want is not "messiah" but "missionary."

Quote
I only wanted a nice Q&A...

We give Q's and you give A's... As they don't exist, how could you answer?

Quote
If you feel like you must, lock this thread, its been derailed long enough anyway

I have explained that I am not, for the purpose of this thread, a Mod. and being as I have commented directly to you, the OP, I could not possibly use my position, it would be unjust. Also, I would not want to do that.

Quote
guess i will just start posting atheist stuff...

The forum is open to all ideas. I think that the overarching rule is something like, "Defend your position against all reasonable criticism whilst supplying good evidence."

However, and I have come across this before, a poster will rubbish the standard religions and then pronounce that there is substance in a particular fluffy-bunny type of alternative "woo" and (surprisingly) expect that it be taken seriously. They are often disappointed.

Edit to add:
A&A: I should probably have read jynnan tonnix's post before I wrote this. I now see that you are in your mid-teens. I like her post. It has a lot of good points in it. On the plus-side, it does mean that I took you to be somewhat older, which is a compliment to your writing abilities. I would simply urge you not to accept any claims of magical being or doings; to always ask, "What is the real reason?" and never to fall into the trap of the fallacy of the Argument from Ignorance.
 1. which is when someone says, "We don't know everything therefore fairies could well exist
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 29, 2013, 09:14:23 PM


I'm 16 actually. (July 10th 1997)
And your post was rather a derailment, as the topic is for asking questions, not making statements.
Lastly, where is every one here coming up with "A tulpa is not a separate entity."?
I have stated several times that i agree, so why bring it up even more? Do you want me to lie or something? I don't know.
But I do believe that tulpae are distinct, in some form, neuroscience is odd...

Fifteen or sixteen, my point still stands. You are very young, and your mind still has a lot of maturing ahead of it. You may be fairly intelligent for your age, but a mid-teen nonetheless.

As for a statement "derailing" the thread, I'm not sure you really have a case for that. A statement, in this case, can easily be turned to a question without really altering anything. If I had prefaced my post with, "the way it sounds to me", and followed it up with "is that right, or does it make sense at all?", would that have made a difference? You can still answer the points made.

As for whether or not this thread should be locked (as you bring up in a further post), I don't know. There's still a lot which is interesting about the premise, and it could probably be discussed with or without you. As long as you keep contradicting yourself in your statements as much as you have been, there isn't much we can really learn from you specifically about the theories of Tulpae. Not that there seems to be much in the way of concrete ideas of what they are anyway. One of the links you posted said something to the effect that there was probably a different idea of exactly what a Tulpa was for every person who had played with creating one. Hmm...sounds just like Jesus. 

Anyway, no one has particularly been attacking you. Even Greybeard's recent post only stated that you seemed to have too much time on your hands and not a lot of serious thinking required of you, so you decided to play this Tulpa game and got a little overly wrapped up in it. This does not equate to assuming you are an idiot. As I said before, just the fact that you are still so young makes this sort of obsession a very common scenario.

Would you agree? (there, I made it a question).

I would not say my age has any factors in this.
I spend about one hour or less a day on Alexis, I also only have a part time job, any other time is eating and playing videogames... (Ironically, i am underweight, not fat...)
I actually spend a large amount of my day learning, be it reading new words, researching technology (mostly war machines and explosives...), and learning more about biology.
And i must say Graybeard is wrong, i created this topic because i wanted a Q&A, not because i had time to spare. If i had time to spare, and i did not want to care about this topic, i would have just played some video games and posted atheist stuff.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 29, 2013, 10:16:11 PM
*snip*

Isn't that a tad bit harsh?
No, not really. You and I both know that "tulpae" are a construct. Both of us know they are unfalsifiable. I have made points and asked questions before and you ignored them. Were you "off topic" or just ignoring?

Sorry, must have missed them, ill take a look.
*looks*
That post in a nutshell is stating i have no critical thinking skills and that i am stupid.
If i had no critical thinking skills, i would of been a drooling theist zombie by now, as for the stupid part, while not impressive, i am in the "Pathfinder" class in my school, in other words the class made up of the smartest in the school. I would say a tulpa is a construct.

Whatever your answer, it is a comment on [wiki]tulpa[/wiki]e. Believing this sort of thing that originated with illiterate and superstitious peasants who live in an oxygen-deprived area is unlikely to advance the cause of mankind. It seems one step behind the basics of Christianity.

The actual concept has changed now to be honest, and i never claimed it would advance humanity. *undervoice* Stupid theists and their no stemcell research...

Quote
First off, you're assuming i am an idiot.
Your spelling and vocabulary seem OK, your ability to explain the inexplicable is on song. Idiots usually have simpler delusions. I can't recall saying your an idiot.

Quote
I keep returning to this thread with the horrid fascination of someone who can’t help lifting the Bandaid to look at a suppurating abscess.
I would say this would imply an idiot, i mean, what idiot sticks a Bandaid on an abscess in the first place? Drain the thing, then let it dry.

Quote
Here in this thread, we are playing along with a deluded premise. Are we paying stupidity tax?

Deluded premise equates to lack of critical thinking, you stated that lack of critical thinking means stupidity tax, if I apparently fit there, that would imply i am stupid.

Quote
Secondly it is off topic. (By a moderator i might add.)

How so? It's about tulpae. I am only a mod when I'm writing in green.

Topic requests questions about tulpae, not statements about delusions and whether or not someone is an idiot.
I was getting at the irony of a moderator (who should be a role model and follow the rules) being off-topic, which generally is a bad thing.

Quote
Lastly, this is the chatter section of the forum, its made for anything, right?

I think your analysis has let you down. If it is about anything then why is my post not "anything"? and how could it be "off-topic"?

This is a topic in the chatter section, the chatter section of the forum is for anything, a topic in it still has a topic, no?

Quote
EDIT: I might add, how exactly does a tulpa is defies laws, what laws?

Can we call it "the concept of tulpae? Is that OK with you? I mention this because if we don't someone will start thinking that they are real. Right: here's the magic and the defiance of physical laws:

From Wiki
Quote
Tulpa [...] often translated as "magical emanation",[3] "conjured thing" [4] and "phantom" [5] is a concept in mysticism of a being or object which is created through sheer spiritual or mental discipline alone. It is defined in Indian Buddhist texts as any unreal, illusory or mind created apparition. According to Alexandra David-Néel, tulpas are "magic formations generated by a powerful concentration of thought." It is a materialized thought that has taken physical form and is usually regarded as synonymous to a thoughtform.[6]

More magic there than in Hogwarts, isn't there?

*Laughs maniacally*
It's hilarious because not a single modern tulpamancer believes in that what so ever. (Okay...a few do...obviously they have had no luck...)
The process is now different, the concept is different, the end result is different, i'm actually surprised they still use the word tulpa.
Obviously religions *dun dun dun!* would believe that tulpae can be physical formed and are magic. (ironically, Christians believe they are evil demons.)

Quote
I mean, the brain can do all kinds of crazy stuff,

Were I to look for proof that the brain can do crazy stuff, I need only look for a defence or explanation of tulpae ; )

But on a more logical note, your sentence just above and the ones following (below), are simply saying "Wow! Who knows what the brain can do? No-one right?
Therefore there are tulpae/gods/pixies/ghosts/etc." It is the fallacy of the appeal to ignorance[1]and it doesn't wash.
 1. which is when someone says, "We don't know everything therefore fairies could well exist

No, i did not state "Who knows what the brain can do?", I affirmed that the brain is capable of "crazy stuff", that said, that is not the best thing to defend with, sorry.
My stand is essentially going "We know that the brain can do things similar, is it not possible for this?".

Quote
[...] then there is all the other kinds of *sic* mental disorders that lead to normally impossible things (MPD, schizophrenia, etc).
Mental disorders do not lead to "normally impossible things." Untreated, they can be a serious illness that makes people believe they can do, and/or are experience, what you and I would call "normally impossible things" or, more technically, a delusion. Any "magic" is purely a subjective part of a delusional process. I cite tulpae as a prime example of what may be a self-induced delusion.

From what i know of, the only delusion is the start of a tulpa, where you must believe it exists, although it does not.

Quote
I did not come here as a "messiah" of tulpae (how would that even work?).

Well, you could start a thread that offered to answer questions about tulpae - Try a Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon who "just wants to answer your questions about Jesus." The word you want is not "messiah" but "missionary."

Theist= I know how everything ever was made, ask me questions.
Me= I happen to be part of a subjective phenomenon, ask me questions.

One is horridly impossible, the other is plausible.
And i am not here as a missionary, as i am not going around saying "Make tulpa, or else they will send you to hell!".

Quote
I only wanted a nice Q&A...

We give Q's and you give A's... As they don't exist, how could you answer?

A few people here seem to accept the possibility of tulpae, and they have asked questions that have answers in the phenomenon. I answered them to the best of tulpamancers (I love how tulpamancer attempts to correct to necromancer.) knowledge.

Quote
If you feel like you must, lock this thread, its been derailed long enough anyway

I have explained that I am not, for the purpose of this thread, a Mod. and being as I have commented directly to you, the OP, I could not possibly use my position, it would be unjust. Also, I would not want to do that.

I am confused, you find this topic utterly useless to society, know that i cannot prove it, and yet still don't want to lock it?...That's rather impartial xD.

Quote
guess i will just start posting atheist stuff...

The forum is open to all ideas. I think that the overarching rule is something like, "Defend your position against all reasonable criticism whilst supplying good evidence."

Of course, but its particularly hard to prove via text a "Highly subjective phenomenon".
It would be just as hard to prove lucid dreaming.

However, and I have come across this before, a poster will rubbish the standard religions and then pronounce that there is substance in a particular fluffy-bunny type of alternative "woo" and (surprisingly) expect that it be taken seriously. They are often disappointed.

I am not disappointed, and have stated before that your disbelief is more than justified.
And it seems a few here have taken it literally, for what it is worth...
I find that theists though will never accept defeat, or post negatives (excluding hell.).

On the plus-side, it does mean that I took you to be somewhat older, which is a compliment to your writing abilities.

Anything less would be uncivilized. (That, and i really...REALLY hate idiotic social websites *cough* facebook *cough*, where people degrade to eight year old sociopaths.)

I would simply urge you not to accept any claims of magical being or doings; to always ask, "What is the real reason?" and never to fall into the trap of the fallacy of the Argument from Ignorance.

I don't believe in magic, i used to when i was like...5? Maybe 4. Then again, i also believed in dragons and god...eh...
And i always look for a logical answer, sometimes i fail, but at-least i get A for effort.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Anfauglir on September 30, 2013, 06:49:01 AM
I revoke my previous statement, a tulpa is a separate entity.


Read back through this second set of quotes, and explain in what way exactly all those traits (all your own words) mean the tulpa is NOT a separate and distinct entity?  How they are SO dissimilar from a person with MPD?

…..If you stand behind that second bunch of your quotes, then at the VERY least you are creating something that is indistinguishable from MPD.  A specifically dangerous second entity, as "alive" and conscious and sentient as any one of us, with independent will and desire, and the ability to bring itself to the fore and take over your body. 

Creating a tulpa is possibly the most stupid and dangerous activity you can take within your own mind, if they are as real as you imply.

Yeah, I should of researched more before typing utter garbage...Sorry...
Anyway, this link might clear some stuff up, written by more experienced people and what not...
http://wiki.tulpa.info/Official/WhatIsATulpa

Okay.  So you are now at "a tulpa is a separate identity", and (using that link) it seems that you are standing behind everything in that second block of quotes.....but ignored the points I was making and the questions I was asking.

1) How is a person with a tulpa distinct from a person with MPD, given everything you say applies to a tulpa?
2) Given you are creating a separate entity that can make its own decisions, dislikes being forced to change, has a full personality with all human traits, is self-aware, capable of taking action on its own, can affect its creator, take them over, and lock them in their own mind…..would you agree that creating such a thing is intrinsically very dangerous?  And as such, is at best naïve, at worst particularly stupid? 

Bottom line: you have deliberately chosen to create a new sentient entity within your own mind, with the capability and motivation to try to force "you" out and take over.  Can you explain why this is a good idea?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 30, 2013, 08:27:32 AM
1) How is a person with a tulpa distinct from a person with MPD, given everything you say applies to a tulpa?

After some more research, i would say they are rather similar, but MPD is a dissorder, while a tulpa is a creation. MPD also hinges on simply being a separate personality, while tulpae are generally more distinct.

2) Given you are creating a separate entity that can make its own decisions, dislikes being forced to change, has a full personality with all human traits, is self-aware, capable of taking action on its own, can affect its creator, take them over, and lock them in their own mind…..would you agree that creating such a thing is intrinsically very dangerous?  And as such, is at best naïve, at worst particularly stupid? 

A tulpa may not have every human trait, and may like being changed. It depends on the tulpa itself and what the creator gave it.
Much like how a tulpa can normally only "take over" if given consent, even then, the creator can usually take back control (according to forums, there has been irreversible take overs...)
I would agree that tulpae can be dangerous, but not more-so than any actual human.
If you were to make a tulpa, you would be nice to it like everyone else, no? So it would have no reason to retaliate.
And tulpae can affect the creator positively i might add, be it massage (Oddly relaxing, have done it before..), lower pain, give moral support, etc.

Bottom line: you have deliberately chosen to create a new sentient entity within your own mind, with the capability and motivation to try to force "you" out and take over.  Can you explain why this is a good idea?

Alexis has neither the ability, nor motivation to "force me out" , why would i make my tulpa hate me by default?
I would not trust anything with the power to control me, i can assume you would agree.
I would say making a tulpa is good, or bad, determined by the person.
I would quite like something to talk to when i am alone (which is a lot of the time.), some might agree.
Others would dislike a constant companion.

(offtopic, what is your motivation anyway? Not to be rude, or make untrue statements, but if you don't believe in tulpae, why ask such questions?)
Thanks for the questions though.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Mrjason on September 30, 2013, 10:20:00 AM
POE? O.o What does that (acronym?) mean?

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe's_Law (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe's_Law)

Given your age I suspect that you may be more impressionable than some of the hardend cynics here so I take the "crazy or POE" comment back.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 30, 2013, 10:43:10 AM
POE? O.o What does that (acronym?) mean?

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe's_Law (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe's_Law)

Given your age I suspect that you may be more impressionable than some of the hardend cynics here so I take the "crazy or POE" comment back.

Heheh, i'm certainly not POE.
I'm also not (very) crazy.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Anfauglir on October 01, 2013, 06:55:34 AM
1) How is a person with a tulpa distinct from a person with MPD, given everything you say applies to a tulpa?

After some more research, i would say they are rather similar, but MPD is a dissorder, while a tulpa is a creation. MPD also hinges on simply being a separate personality, while tulpae are generally more distinct.

Distinct in what way?  I'm still going from that list from your quotes, they all seemed to describe a personality to me.  It also sounds like you are quibbling over the terms "disorder" and "creation".  I'm asking you what the differences are in the end results.

2) Given you are creating a separate entity that can make its own decisions, dislikes being forced to change, has a full personality with all human traits, is self-aware, capable of taking action on its own, can affect its creator, take them over, and lock them in their own mind…..would you agree that creating such a thing is intrinsically very dangerous?  And as such, is at best naïve, at worst particularly stupid? 

Much like how a tulpa can normally only "take over" if given consent, even then, the creator can usually take back control (according to forums, there has been irreversible take overs...)
I would agree that tulpae can be dangerous, but not more-so than any actual human.
If you were to make a tulpa, you would be nice to it like everyone else, no? So it would have no reason to retaliate.

Note my bolds.

I'm sure you would be nice to it.  But consider this: your claim is that the tulpa has the same kind of feelings and thoughts and drives as any regular human - "all the human traits", I believe you said.  Now consider this: how would YOU feel, trapped in a body you cannot control, subject entirely to the whims of the creator, "taken out and played with" at his pleasure?  You may be the nicest jailer in the world, but at the end of the day, jailer you are.  Think about your own quote:

I would not trust anything with the power to control me, i can assume you would agree.

That MUST perforce mean that Alexis does NOT trust you, does it not?

If a tulpa is TRULY as human as a human, then they will all, inevitably, wish for and strive for control.  If you are saying that most tulpa do and will NOT do that, then they are NOT separate entities, and are just a highly-imagined imaginary friend, with all their responses being imagined by the creator, NOT generated by the "tulpa".  I don't see how you can have it both ways, either they are distinct and will desire freedom, or they are the perfect Tamagotchi with no desires of their own.



(offtopic, what is your motivation anyway? Not to be rude, or make untrue statements, but if you don't believe in tulpae, why ask such questions?)
Thanks for the questions though.

Because of my paragraph just above.  Tulpa are EITHER just a super-imagined construct, no different ultimately than Bernie that I mentioned a few pages ago, or they are real and clear dangers indistinguishable from MPD.

If it’s the former, then I am continuing in this thread for the same reason I challenge ANY unsupported "woo" that people come up with.  If the latter, then you are on a dangerous course that you are encouraging others to think is safe and dandy, and I will continue to argue those points until you can offer any reasoned arguments that there is no danger.  Thus far, you've managed to avoid answering any of the tougher questions I've posed, normally by shifting your stance as soon as the debate goes too far one way or another.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 01, 2013, 06:57:16 PM
1) How is a person with a tulpa distinct from a person with MPD, given everything you say applies to a tulpa?

After some more research, i would say they are rather similar, but MPD is a dissorder, while a tulpa is a creation. MPD also hinges on simply being a separate personality, while tulpae are generally more distinct.

Distinct in what way?  I'm still going from that list from your quotes, they all seemed to describe a personality to me.  It also sounds like you are quibbling over the terms "disorder" and "creation".  I'm asking you what the differences are in the end results.

End results differ in form, mind and abilities. Of what i know of.

Note my bolds.

I'm sure you would be nice to it.  But consider this: your claim is that the tulpa has the same kind of feelings and thoughts and drives as any regular human - "all the human traits", I believe you said.  Now consider this: how would YOU feel, trapped in a body you cannot control, subject entirely to the whims of the creator, "taken out and played with" at his pleasure?  You may be the nicest jailer in the world, but at the end of the day, jailer you are.  Think about your own quote:

All the human traits..."generally" ;D.
What you also have to remember is that she as a body of her own control, she is as free as she wants to be, inside my head...9_6
At the moment i do have to force her a bit to get stuff going, but eventually she should start up on her own.
Would you say that every human, who simply cannot be physical, would take over its creator, although it already had a form?

I would not trust anything with the power to control me, i can assume you would agree.

That MUST perforce mean that Alexis does NOT trust you, does it not?

Never thought of that.
Let me check.
...................................
Indeed she does not trust me to control her, luckily i do not control her then, no?

If a tulpa is TRULY as human as a human, then they will all, inevitably, wish for and strive for control.  If you are saying that most tulpa do and will NOT do that, then they are NOT separate entities, and are just a highly-imagined imaginary friend, with all their responses being imagined by the creator, NOT generated by the "tulpa".  I don't see how you can have it both ways, either they are distinct and will desire freedom, or they are the perfect Tamagotchi with no desires of their own.

Why would it want control?
Wouldn't it already have everything it needs? And wants?
Normally tulpae are created as friends, why would a friend do such an awful thing?
http://www.tulpa.info/archive/perceived-dangers-of-making-a-tulpa/
This may explain some stuff, note the possession parts.

Because of my paragraph just above.  Tulpa are EITHER just a super-imagined construct, no different ultimately than Bernie that I mentioned a few pages ago, or they are real and clear dangers indistinguishable from MPD.

Neither, a tulpa is *copy* *paste* A tulpa is a consciousness that is very much like your own, in that has its own opinions, preferences, personality and so on. It can communicate with you, can have its own form, and can understand you like no one else could. It can give you second opinions on things and come up with original ideas of its own. A tulpa lives inside your brain, very much like you do.

If it’s the former, then I am continuing in this thread for the same reason I challenge ANY unsupported "woo" that people come up with.  If the latter, then you are on a dangerous course that you are encouraging others to think is safe and dandy, and I will continue to argue those points until you can offer any reasoned arguments that there is no danger.  Thus far, you've managed to avoid answering any of the tougher questions I've posed, normally by shifting your stance as soon as the debate goes too far one way or another.

I admit, I made the topic with a rather large lack of information.
Hence i didn't know what to say xD.
I have never stated tulpae are fine and dandy, i have said they can be good, and can be bad. Impartial.
Sorry if i avoided any questions, re-post them and i will begin answering them ASAP.

Sorry for late reply.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Anfauglir on October 02, 2013, 02:44:00 AM
Frankly, I'm getting a little tired of all the contradictions and evasions you keep coming up with.

Indeed (Alexis) does not trust me to control her, luckily i do not control her then, no?

At the moment i do have to force her a bit to get stuff going

Do you control and force her, or not?

1) How is a person with a tulpa distinct from a person with MPD, given everything you say applies to a tulpa?

End results differ in form, mind and abilities. Of what i know of.
HOW do they differ?  Don't just claim it, tell me in detail.  You've said "they are different", so you must know what those specific differences are?

But consider this: your claim is that the tulpa has the same kind of feelings and thoughts and drives as any regular human - "all the human traits", I believe you said.  Now consider this: how would YOU feel, trapped in a body you cannot control, subject entirely to the whims of the creator, "taken out and played with" at his pleasure?  You may be the nicest jailer in the world, but at the end of the day, jailer you are.  Think about your own quote:

All the human traits..."generally" ;D.
What you also have to remember is that she as a body of her own control, she is as free as she wants to be, inside my head...
Would you say that every human, who simply cannot be physical, would take over its creator, although it already had a form?

Okay, so what human traits do tulpa NOT have?  Be specific.
See my bold in your response?  Prisoners have all the freedom they want….in the exercise yard.  And yes - I WOULD say that a creature with thoughts and feelings and desires, but which was trapped inside a body it was unable to control, subject to the whims of its jailer, would indeed try to "escape".

If you are trying to tell me that you have created a willing slave that thinks only what you think, then fine - but that is NOT the seperate identity you have been trying to push. 
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 02, 2013, 03:23:50 AM
Frankly, I'm getting a little tired of all the contradictions and evasions you keep coming up with.

How so?
I am honestly not attempting to do so...sorry...

Do you control and force her, or not?

Control her directly? No, but i do force her to do things, which i believe she doesn't mind, as it allows her to do more things. Helps with her form, personality, etc.

HOW do they differ?  Don't just claim it, tell me in detail.  You've said "they are different", so you must know what those specific differences are?

That is determined by the tulpa itself and the creator.
You never stated what tulpa to use, so i wouldn't know.

Okay, so what human traits do tulpa NOT have?  Be specific.
See my bold in your response?  Prisoners have all the freedom they want….in the exercise yard.  And yes - I WOULD say that a creature with thoughts and feelings and desires, but which was trapped inside a body it was unable to control, subject to the whims of its jailer, would indeed try to "escape".

The traits is determined by the tulpa, so i would not know.
Again, she has her own body, while it is not physical, she indeed has one. She controls it, i do not.
Why would a tulpa "desire" a takeover of the creators body? Last time i checked, friends don't do that...

If you are trying to tell me that you have created a willing slave that thinks only what you think, then fine - but that is NOT the seperate identity you have been trying to push. 

A "willing slave" is a servitor, a tulpa is not.
For example, you say to your tulpa "Tell me a joke". Depending on the tulpa, it will, or will not tell you a joke. A servitor will do what is asked of, regardless of any variables.
And again, tulpae (generally) have different thoughts.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Anfauglir on October 02, 2013, 05:27:25 AM
So to be blunt, you can answer questions about Alexis, but not about tulpa in general, is that correct?

Just two specifics:

Do you control and force her, or not?

Control her directly? No, but i do force her to do things
So you DO control her?  Perhaps you need to define "control" and "force" as you are using them - I don't see a distinction.

Prisoners have all the freedom they want….in the exercise yard.  And yes - I WOULD say that a creature with thoughts and feelings and desires, but which was trapped inside a body it was unable to control, subject to the whims of its jailer, would indeed try to "escape".

Again, she has her own body, while it is not physical, she indeed has one. She controls it, i do not.
Why would a tulpa "desire" a takeover of the creators body? Last time i checked, friends don't do that...

She has her own body - what does that mean?  I know that you picture her with a body, but she clearly does not interact with the physical environment.  YOU choose if your body goes for a walk, watches TV, reads a book - ALL sensory inputs to Alexis come from YOUR choices.  She has no control over the environment she is in, over the inputs she receives.

You are correct.  Friends do not take over friends.  I am sure that is what every other person who got taken over by a tulpa thought.  My point is that no matter how good you may feel your friendship is, if your tulpa is indeed a seperate entity, that friendship may not change.

Question.  Someone you consider a friend locks you in a little room, where the only connection to the outside world is a TV screen.  You have no control over what that screen shows, no control over whether that screen is even on.  Your "friend" determines what you see and experience, decides when and if they will talk to you.

Answer honestly.  How long would you consider your captor a friend?  How long would it take you, locked in your little room, to get to the point where your desire for freedom, for self-determination, would outweigh friendship?

I'm not arguing Alexis is your friend NOW.  But I believe you said she is only a year or so old, and not fully formed.  I am saying that at some point in future, friendship may change - as you agree it clearly has done for others.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Graybeard on October 02, 2013, 07:05:26 AM

A "willing slave" is a servitor, a tulpa is not.
For example, you say to your tulpa "Tell me a joke". Depending on the tulpa, it will, or will not tell you a joke.
You mean like when you pray to God or pray to a milk-jug, your prayer might or might not be answered?

Have you ever sought, been advised to seek or received help for a mental problem?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jynnan tonnix on October 02, 2013, 07:41:35 AM
Now, I know you identify as atheist, A&A, but just look at the parallels in the creation story. Or stories in any number of religions, actually. Although they are all mythology, the threads of human behavior make them something people recognize and respond to. The Christian concept of needing to be redeemed of sin, for instance, boils down to the universal truth that no one is perfect. So, basically, can we agree that the stories arose from an examination of how humans, in general, tend to behave?

So, you have god creating the angels. Which, despite living in heaven, directly with a perfect being, still rebel, resulting in Satan and other demons.

You have the Adam & Eve narrative, which shows that despite also living in a perfect environment, the tendency to disobey is always there. No matter that it is fiction, as I said, it illustrates the idea that humankind is something which will always seek to move outside the box. Even if the box is perfect.

So, given the notion that tulpae are essentially a separate, human consciousness, housed within a vessel which does not allow them autonomy in the physical world, how is it that they would not yearn for more? Like Anfauglir's analogy of a supposed friend locking you in a box with him as the sole source of your entertainment or experience, how would that not become an unbearably limited existence?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jaimehlers on October 02, 2013, 09:24:49 AM
I don't think tulpae are an independent human consciousness, based on what Angus has said here.  The way he consistently describes Alexis as acting sounds more like an AI virtual construct than a human consciousness.  In other words, tulpae aren't like MPD, which creates independent human personalities.  It's basically like giving an imaginary friend a mind of its own, and thinking about it so long and so hard that it continues to exist (within the imagination) even when you aren't thinking about it.

That means that a tulpa is dependent - it needs the creator's imagination to exist.  It literally can't exist without its creator's goodwill, and it can't exist outside the imagination in any case.  However, since it has volition, it can probably utilize the same brain mechanics that create the imagination to keep itself entertained, and if it gets bored, it can always interact with its creator.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jynnan tonnix on October 02, 2013, 09:40:53 AM
Yes, that is my feeling as well, but it's an issue which Angus seems to be going back and forth with somewhat. And to some extent, what he actually believes is as important as what is actually true. It seems to me that someone who owns that a tulpa is merely a construct of the imagination, with no actual free will of its own, but dependent on the whims of its creator is one thing, but someone who believes that a tulpa does have independent consciousness might be far more likely to subconsciously allow his tulpa to act in ways which might be contrary to even his own perceived morality if he had repressed anger issues or something.

Not trying to psychoanalyze Angus personally, but as a general possibility.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jaimehlers on October 02, 2013, 09:43:10 AM
You mean like when you pray to God or pray to a milk-jug, your prayer might or might not be answered?
Even I can tell that's not what Angus meant, and I generally suck at reading intent and meaning over the Internet.

Looking over your past posts in this thread, it seems like you're trying to show that tulpae are nothing more than the same sort of "supernatural woo" that religions attempt to pull.  I don't doubt that a number of people actually do think like that.

However, I'm reminded of something else from the wiki article:  "As the Tibetan use of the tulpa concept is described in the book Magical Use of Thoughtforms, the student was expected to come to the understanding that the tulpa was just a hallucination."  In other words, it looks like the original purpose of tulpa-creation was not to create 'woo' that people should believe in, but to teach them how to recognize the difference between a hallucination and reality, and ultimately to remove the hallucination from themselves.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 02, 2013, 11:28:05 AM
So to be blunt, you can answer questions about Alexis, but not about tulpa in general, is that correct?

Quite correct, otherwise i would be generalizing tulpae. It would be like generalizing atheists, there is only about one thing all have in common.

Just two specifics:

Control her directly? No, but i do force her to do things
So you DO control her?  Perhaps you need to define "control" and "force" as you are using them - I don't see a distinction.

Control would be like using her as a puppet (called puppeting in tulpamancer terms.), literally moving her without her consent.
Forcing, in tulpamancer terms is designing the tulpa, you do not force a complete tulpa, well you can, not good though...

She has her own body - what does that mean?  I know that you picture her with a body, but she clearly does not interact with the physical environment.  YOU choose if your body goes for a walk, watches TV, reads a book - ALL sensory inputs to Alexis come from YOUR choices.  She has no control over the environment she is in, over the inputs she receives.

Not particularly, she feels what i feel and sees what i see, what she makes of that input is up to her.
Remember that "her" environment is in my head, she has controls it while i am not there.

So to be blunt, you can answer questions about Alexis, but not about tulpa in general, is that correct?

Just two specifics:

You are correct.  Friends do not take over friends.  I am sure that is what every other person who got taken over by a tulpa thought.  My point is that no matter how good you may feel your friendship is, if your tulpa is indeed a seperate entity, that friendship may not change.

Not really, according to a few logs of tulpamancers who where apparently possessed, they ended up letting their tulpa take over because they liked them so darn much.
Then there is the tulpamancers who treated their tulpa's really badly.
But of course, there is the odd few that are apparently taken over without reason, i ponder why...
But surely a mistake that i would obviously not make. (hopefully)

Question.  Someone you consider a friend locks you in a little room, where the only connection to the outside world is a TV screen.  You have no control over what that screen shows, no control over whether that screen is even on.  Your "friend" determines what you see and experience, decides when and if they will talk to you.

Answer honestly.  How long would you consider your captor a friend?  How long would it take you, locked in your little room, to get to the point where your desire for freedom, for self-determination, would outweigh friendship?

Considering in this situation i am a tulpa, and thus understand that i am a tulpa, a construct, and that in my own place i can do pretty much anything i want.
I talk to my creator, and enjoy my life, not needing feeble requirements like "air" and "food".
Your analogy was rather flawed to be honest.

I'm not arguing Alexis is your friend NOW.  But I believe you said she is only a year or so old, and not fully formed.  I am saying that at some point in future, friendship may change - as you agree it clearly has done for others.

Less than a year old (...Started on 14th june 2013...)
According to Alexis, she does not care about being a tulpa, but it is possible for deviation to occur.
I guess in that case, i would have to rethink the situation, no?

You mean like when you pray to God or pray to a milk-jug, your prayer might or might not be answered?

Not at all, more like, if you asked anything that is sentient a request.
Are you saying that regardless of the request, you would say yes, or no? And not a different answer according to the question?

Have you ever sought, been advised to seek or received help for a mental problem?

No, have you? I could assume no.

I don't think tulpae are an independent human consciousness, based on what Angus has said here.  The way he consistently describes Alexis as acting sounds more like an AI virtual construct than a human consciousness.  In other words, tulpae aren't like MPD, which creates independent human personalities.  It's basically like giving an imaginary friend a mind of its own, and thinking about it so long and so hard that it continues to exist (within the imagination) even when you aren't thinking about it.

That means that a tulpa is dependent - it needs the creator's imagination to exist.  It literally can't exist without its creator's goodwill, and it can't exist outside the imagination in any case.  However, since it has volition, it can probably utilize the same brain mechanics that create the imagination to keep itself entertained, and if it gets bored, it can always interact with its creator.

Possibly, i know for fact that tulpae start degrading without the creators interaction. So tulpae are not 100% independent.

Yes, that is my feeling as well, but it's an issue which Angus seems to be going back and forth with somewhat. And to some extent, what he actually believes is as important as what is actually true. It seems to me that someone who owns that a tulpa is merely a construct of the imagination, with no actual free will of its own, but dependent on the whims of its creator is one thing, but someone who believes that a tulpa does have independent consciousness might be far more likely to subconsciously allow his tulpa to act in ways which might be contrary to even his own perceived morality if he had repressed anger issues or something.

Not trying to psychoanalyze Angus personally, but as a general possibility.

If you are attempting to say that Alexis would make me act immorally, you are wrong.
I would not dare hurt anyone, unlike the apish brute excuses of humans here (in my city), hell, Alexis wouldn't either, scratch that, she can get feisty....
I also like to fight verbally (making smart remarks, not insults though), rather than physically.


Edit: Fixed Quotes
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Jag on October 02, 2013, 11:46:59 AM
Remember that "her" environment is in my head, she has controls it while i am not there.

It sounds like you are suggesting that, at least occasionally, you are not in your own head and Alexis is in control of it. I'm almost sure that's not what you actually meant, but I would appreciate clarity on this point. I'm trying to avoid making a value judgment about this whole topic, in light of information like this:

However, I'm reminded of something else from the wiki article:  "As the Tibetan use of the tulpa concept is described in the book Magical Use of Thoughtforms, the student was expected to come to the understanding that the tulpa was just a hallucination."  In other words, it looks like the original purpose of tulpa-creation was not to create 'woo' that people should believe in, but to teach them how to recognize the difference between a hallucination and reality, and ultimately to remove the hallucination from themselves.

When viewed from the perspective described above, it makes a great deal of sense as a tool. I'm still not convinced that this isn't a dangerous thing to deliberately introduce to one's own brain as a companion (which assumes an ongoing existence), but that's just my opinion and I recognize it as such.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Zankuu on October 02, 2013, 01:18:29 PM
I don't think tulpae are an independent human consciousness, based on what Angus has said here.  The way he consistently describes Alexis as acting sounds more like an AI virtual construct than a human consciousness.  In other words, tulpae aren't like MPD, which creates independent human personalities.  It's basically like giving an imaginary friend a mind of its own, and thinking about it so long and so hard that it continues to exist (within the imagination) even when you aren't thinking about it.

jaimehlers, I mostly agree with you but I'll be nitpicky for one second and say that the identities people with MPD (now called Dissociative Identity Disorder / DID) create don't have to be human. They can be, like the friend Angus made, a pony. But the vast majority of personalities are normal run-of-the-mill humans.

Here's a question: Can an imaginary friend become a dissociative identity?

I have no idea. I don't know if there has been any research at all involving DID and imaginary friends in adults. Like it's been said earlier in this thread, when it comes to imaginary friends the creator is thinking up and providing the source material for thoughts and actions of the created friends. However, with a dissociative personality, the manifested personality speaks and acts for itself. If this is what is trying to be achieved by creating tulpas AND if it is even possible, then I think people should be very careful. If an imaginary friend like "Alexis" can become a dissociative identity I don't think thought-forming a tulpa is anything close to healthy. You would be willingly creating a mental disorder in yourself.

Edit: I'd love to see some MRIs of brain activity in adults with imaginary friends, people suffering from DID, and people creating tulpas.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 02, 2013, 01:48:50 PM
Edit: I'd love to see some MRIs of brain activity in adults with imaginary friends, people suffering from DID, and people creating tulpas.

I would too *sigh*...

It sounds like you are suggesting that, at least occasionally, you are not in your own head and Alexis is in control of it. I'm almost sure that's not what you actually meant, but I would appreciate clarity on this point.

Okay.
So, you got your tulpa, ok?
Now, you got your mind, ok?
You make place in your mind for the tulpa to be free and reside when not active (i personally chose a beachfront, ironically Alexis does not like getting wet).
When you force the tulpa, interact with it, do mental tasks with it, you go there.
Meanwhile while you are not there, the tulpa can do as it pleases (Alexis seems to have a habit of making renders of other ponies look like her, adding to her form...)

Here's a question: Can an imaginary friend become a dissociative identity?

Hmm, potentially it could, no?
Often disorders can come from non-related issues, like stress and trauma, so maybe...
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Jag on October 02, 2013, 01:54:35 PM
Thank you for clarifying.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 02, 2013, 01:56:18 PM
Thank you for clarifying.

I hope i made myself clear... ;\
I'm not very good at clarifying...

Edit: Woot, six pages, cheese for everyone!
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on October 02, 2013, 02:37:58 PM
A & A -- Are you for real or is this "tulpamancy" a "tongue in cheek" thing?  I frequently refer to my alternate personalities or threaten to convert to Pastafarianism and start shopping for a pink pasta strainer. I do this for comic relief due to major stress in my life.  However I do not really have Multiple Personality Disorder and I don't really worship the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster although I would like to own a pink pasta strainer. But I might get me a tulpa now.   ;)

Anfauglir:  I'm pretty sure this isn't Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends..

Loved that show when my son was little.   ;D
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 02, 2013, 11:06:18 PM
A & A -- Are you for real or is this "tulpamancy" a "tongue in cheek" thing?  I frequently refer to my alternate personalities or threaten to convert to Pastafarianism and start shopping for a pink pasta strainer. I do this for comic relief due to major stress in my life.  However I do not really have Multiple Personality Disorder and I don't really worship the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster although I would like to own a pink pasta strainer. But I might get me a tulpa now.   ;)

I am for real.
I do use tulpae as a tongue in cheek thing with theists, as it drives them mad, but at other times, i am for real.

Anfauglir:  I'm pretty sure this isn't Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends..

Loved that show when my son was little.   ;D

That show was great xD.
I hate TV though, too many advertisements.

Edit: -2 darwins, yay?
Edit#2: As a question, how many atheists here get more -'s rather than +'s?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Anfauglir on October 03, 2013, 03:26:07 AM
Question.  Someone you consider a friend locks you in a little room, where the only connection to the outside world is a TV screen.  You have no control over what that screen shows, no control over whether that screen is even on.  Your "friend" determines what you see and experience, decides when and if they will talk to you.

Answer honestly.  How long would you consider your captor a friend?  How long would it take you, locked in your little room, to get to the point where your desire for freedom, for self-determination, would outweigh friendship?

Considering in this situation i am a tulpa, and thus understand that i am a tulpa, a construct, and that in my own place i can do pretty much anything i want.
I talk to my creator, and enjoy my life, not needing feeble requirements like "air" and "food".
Your analogy was rather flawed to be honest.

So the fact that she knows she was created specifically to serve your interests, that you did your best to force her to be the way YOU want her to be, that she will eternally be dependant on your whims for her stimulation, can never interact with anyone else.....basically, she accepts that she is a good little construct who must toe the line or get deleted:

it is possible for deviation to occur.  I guess in that case, i would have to rethink the situation, no?

I'm not surprised she lets you think she is your friend, if deletion is the alternative.  Though I suppose it could be Stockholm Syndrome.

One final point:

i personally chose a beachfront, ironically Alexis does not like getting wet

So....you KNOW that a great deal of the environment you generously created for her is something she doesn't like and won't use.  You ARE a good friend, I'm really NOT surprised that she wouldn't dare reveal she is anything other than happy and grateful to you. 

You've created something dependant on your whim for its existence.  Given it an environment that fits YOUR desires, not hers.  Done your damndest to make it the thing you want it to be.  Are convinced it should and does love you, should be grateful for its existence.

Bravo Yahweh.  You've done a good job there.  I can't see THAT going wrong.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 03, 2013, 03:44:49 AM
So the fact that she knows she was created specifically to serve your interests, that you did your best to force her to be the way YOU want her to be, that she will eternally be dependant on your whims for her stimulation, can never interact with anyone else.....basically, she accepts that she is a good little construct who must toe the line or get deleted:

Never stated i would just poof her away, i would try to get better in relations, like you would with actual people.
She does know she is a construct, she cannot dismiss it.
Lastly, when you make a tupa, you make its personality and framework, then let it deviate.
Level of deviation is impossible to estimate, but can vary from "completely different from the start" to "One difference...".

I'm not surprised she lets you think she is your friend, if deletion is the alternative.  Though I suppose it could be Stockholm Syndrome.

Please, entertain me, post where i said "i would delete her if she doesn't do as she is told."

The fact is with her personality (and cute looks ;D), she will be my companion, it is inevitable.
If she deviates too far, i would just have to accept it, no?

i personally chose a beachfront, ironically Alexis does not like getting wet

So....you KNOW that a great deal of the environment you generously created for her is something she doesn't like and won't use.  You ARE a good friend, I'm really NOT surprised that she wouldn't dare reveal she is anything other than happy and grateful to you. 

No, she likes the beach (probably the sun and sand), and she doesn't go in the water, also hooves are not very effective at using things (maybe she could do with telekinesis...).
Also remember that the beach connects to the mainland, she is not on a desert island.
And trust me, she hasn't been all happy and grateful, she has gotten angry at times (one such time with an incident involving water...), i apologized, obviously.

You've created something dependant on your whim for its existence.  Given it an environment that fits YOUR desires, not hers.  Done your damndest to make it the thing you want it to be.  Are convinced it should and does love you, should be grateful for its existence.

A tulpa is always dependent on the creator for its existence, they do not care.
She is happy with the beach.
You design a tulpa and then let it deviate.
We enjoy each other because of our personalities, not due to force. (*shivers*, love+tulpa brings me bad memories of a persons log...)
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Anfauglir on October 03, 2013, 03:56:22 AM
I'm done: you don't appear to want to even consider the issues I'm raising, just deny they could ever exist, and I'm bored with the contradictions in your posts.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 03, 2013, 03:57:48 AM
I'm done: you don't appear to want to even consider the issues I'm raising, just deny they could ever exist, and I'm bored with the contradictions in your posts.

I am considering them, its not my fault they are invalid and flawed.

Thanks for the questions though.

Edit: I might add that a large number of your questions i have to use Alexis for context, being that she has an obviously different mindset than you, its no surprise you are aggravated by her not caring being my tulpa/ being at the beach/ etc. I mean, you cant read her mind, so the answers might seem surprising.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Mrjason on October 03, 2013, 04:56:46 AM
I'm done: you don't appear to want to even consider the issues I'm raising, just deny they could ever exist, and I'm bored with the contradictions in your posts.

Angus and Alexis, I think why you struggle with giving the type of answer that Anfauglir would like is because you have taken a part of a philosophy and ran with it out of its original context i.e. Buddhism.

Its a bit like using CD roms as reflectors on your bike, sure they may do the job but thats definitely not what they're designed for.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 03, 2013, 05:20:08 AM
I'm done: you don't appear to want to even consider the issues I'm raising, just deny they could ever exist, and I'm bored with the contradictions in your posts.

Angus and Alexis, I think why you struggle with giving the type of answer that Anfauglir would like is because you have taken a part of a philosophy and ran with it out of its original context i.e. Buddhism.

Its a bit like using CD roms as reflectors on your bike, sure they may do the job but thats definitely not what they're designed for.

Possibly, the "process and result" of what i am doing is different than the Buddhist method.
I honestly don't know why the name is the same, one is magic, the other is not..

Edit: Do you have any questions by the way ;D?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Mrjason on October 03, 2013, 05:24:51 AM
Possibly, the "process and result" of what i am doing is different than the Buddhist method.
I honestly don't know why the name is the same, one is magic, the other is not..

Edit: Do you have any questions by the way ;D?

Yes.  :laugh: Why do you think that the names are the same.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 03, 2013, 05:27:18 AM
Possibly, the "process and result" of what i am doing is different than the Buddhist method.
I honestly don't know why the name is the same, one is magic, the other is not..

Edit: Do you have any questions by the way ;D?

Yes.  :laugh: Why do you think that the names are the same.

Hmmm...
Possibly as they are similar, being that both involved using thought to make something?
Maybe the version most people use was made by a pirate (stealing other names ;D).
;\
Cant think of much more...
Ask more questions please if you want to xD.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Mrjason on October 03, 2013, 05:31:36 AM

Hmmm...
Possibly as they are similar, being that both involved using thought to make something?
Ask more questions please if you want to xD.

are they similar or the same?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 03, 2013, 05:37:21 AM
are they similar or the same?

Similar, not the same.
Otherwise i would be saying "Alexis is real, thats right, i made a real life changeling queen with my head".
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Mrjason on October 03, 2013, 05:43:29 AM
Similar, not the same.
Otherwise i would be saying "Alexis is real, thats right, i made a real life changeling queen with my head".

Isn't the ultimate aim in Buddhism for the creator to realise that the tulpa is a hallucination?
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 03, 2013, 05:47:05 AM
Isn't the ultimate aim in Buddhism for the creator to realise that the tulpa is a hallucination?

According to sources, yes.

Hence why the process of tulpae (the one i am doing) is different, Buddhist make hallucinations, we make sentient companions.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Mrjason on October 03, 2013, 06:03:22 AM
Isn't the ultimate aim in Buddhism for the creator to realise that the tulpa is a hallucination?

According to sources, yes.

Hence why the process of tulpae (the one i am doing) is different, Buddhist make hallucinations, we make sentient companions.

Isn't this just cherry picking the aspects of a philosophy that you like and rejecting those parts that you find unpalatable? Much in the same way that christians do.
As Buddhism does not have a Central deity I would suggest that what you are doing as as close to SPAG[1] (acronym not insult, see link below) as you can get with this particular belief system?
 1. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/SPAG (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/SPAG)
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 03, 2013, 06:13:32 AM
Isn't this just cherry picking the aspects of a philosophy that you like and rejecting those parts that you find unpalatable? Much in the same way that christians do.
As Buddhism does not have a Central deity I would suggest that what you are doing as as close to SPAG[1] (acronym not insult, see link below) as you can get with this particular belief system?
 1. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/SPAG (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/SPAG)

Nononono, i'm not a Buddhist, nor is Tulpae exclusive to Buddhism.

So far, i believe there is a Tibetan tulpa concept, a Buddhist one, and the one i am attempting, lets just call it modern tulpa concept?

Its also not a philosophy, its a process (in this case at least).

Im also not "SPAG", as i am not self projecting anything other than myself, an obvious human being, excluding the required answers from Alexis that Anfauglir requested.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Mrjason on October 03, 2013, 06:32:53 AM

Nononono, i'm not a Buddhist, nor is Tulpae exclusive to Buddhism.

So far, i believe there is a Tibetan tulpa concept, a Buddhist one, and the one i am attempting, lets just call it modern tulpa concept?

What you are saying is that you like the tulpa concept, hence you have created one, but you don't like the philosophy that they are derived from. This is cherry picking.

Its also not a philosophy, its a process (in this case at least).

A process that is a teaching tool as part of a philosophy unless, as in your case, it is taken out of context.

Im also not "SPAG", as i am not self projecting anything other than myself, an obvious human being, excluding the required answers from Alexis that Anfauglir requested.

To be honest I'm not 100% sure that SPAG can be used in the case of Buddhism. You're certainly adopting parts of it and projecting your own ideals upon it.

The answers from Alexis will be the same as the answers from you. Even if Alexis is its own consciousness [wiki]determinism[/wiki] will mean that the responses from Alexis are identical to yours
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 03, 2013, 06:49:52 AM
What you are saying is that you like the tulpa concept, hence you have created one, but you don't like the philosophy that they are derived from. This is cherry picking.

No, i did not make the concept i follow, some one else did.
According to the forums, the one we use is more similar to the Tibetan concept.
Essentially, they found it interesting, tested it, modified it, then that led to what it is now.

A process that is a teaching tool as part of a philosophy unless, as in your case, it is taken out of context.

I don't follow it as a philosophy, very few do.

To be honest I'm not 100% sure that SPAG can be used in the case of Buddhism. You're certainly adopting parts of it and projecting your own ideals upon it.

No, I am not.
I have not adopted anything from Buddhism.

The answers from Alexis will be the same as the answers from you. Even if Alexis is its own consciousness [wiki]determinism[/wiki] will mean that the responses from Alexis are identical to yours

Not at all.
I don't like being lit on fire, Alexis does not mind, i like water, Alexis does not.
Alexis does indeed answer differently than i would, not all of the time of course, but she does do it.

I'm not sure what Determinism has anything to do with this...
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jynnan tonnix on October 03, 2013, 06:58:32 AM

I don't like being lit on fire, Alexis does not mind, i like water, Alexis does not.


OK...so how does THAT work??

Obviously Alexis cannot sense anything except through you. She cannot sense the water on her beach in any concrete way, neither can she sense being on fire. In fact, unless YOU have been lit on fire, there is no way that anything in your mind could meaningfully construct that sensation except as an extrapolation of burning your hand on a stove or something.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Mrjason on October 03, 2013, 07:10:19 AM
What you are saying is that you like the tulpa concept, hence you have created one, but you don't like the philosophy that they are derived from. This is cherry picking.

No, i did not make the concept i follow, some one else did.
According to the forums, the one we use is more similar to the Tibetan concept.
Essentially, they found it interesting, tested it, modified it, then that led to what it is now.

A process that is a teaching tool as part of a philosophy unless, as in your case, it is taken out of context.

I don't follow it as a philosophy, very few do.

To be honest I'm not 100% sure that SPAG can be used in the case of Buddhism. You're certainly adopting parts of it and projecting your own ideals upon it.

No, I am not.
I have not adopted anything from Buddhism.

As I said, you follow the tulpa concept but not the buddhism that it is derived from.

The answers from Alexis will be the same as the answers from you. Even if Alexis is its own consciousness [wiki]determinism[/wiki] will mean that the responses from Alexis are identical to yours

Not at all.
I don't like being lit on fire, Alexis does not mind, i like water, Alexis does not.
Alexis does indeed answer differently than i would, not all of the time of course, but she does do it.

I'm not sure what Determinism has anything to do with this...

Alexis has no physical form, I don't see how it can like or dislike something that it can have no concept of. Unless you have told it/imagined that it doesn't. But this takes us back to the "servitor" questions of a few pages ago.

If alexis has the same experiences/social motivators etc as you (which it must by definition of being a co-existant entity) determinism means that alexis does not have a range of responses outside of those that you have.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 03, 2013, 07:18:19 AM
OK...so how does THAT work??

After finding out she disliked water, i asked her if she liked fire or not, she then proceeded to light on fire and not care at all...

Obviously Alexis cannot sense anything except through you. She cannot sense the water on her beach in any concrete way, neither can she sense being on fire. In fact, unless YOU have been lit on fire, there is no way that anything in your mind could meaningfully construct that sensation except as an extrapolation of burning your hand on a stove or something.

I have had bad run ins with hot things and fire...
I can only assume she knows fire= Normally really bad.
And what do you mean she cannot sense the water?
Of course she can sense it, that is where she essentially lives (the beach that is, not the water), she can sense anything internally, but relies on me for external input.

As I said, you follow the tulpa concept but not the buddhism that it is derived from.

In that context, then yes, i guess i do.

Alexis has no physical form, I don't see how it can like or dislike something that it can have no concept of. Unless you have told it/imagined that it doesn't. But this takes us back to the "servitor" questions of a few pages ago.

While she has no physical form, she knows what is good, and what is bad, she is no idiot (okay...she is a bit lacking with intelligence at the moment).
Tulpae are known for using memories from their creators, i would say that may have something to do with it.

If alexis has the same experiences/social motivators etc as you (which it must by definition of being a co-existant entity) determinism means that alexis does not have a range of responses outside of those that you have.

Again, do i like being lit on fire? I would hope you say no...
Alexis seems to not fear fire, i sure as hell fear it.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Mrjason on October 03, 2013, 07:50:22 AM

As I said, you follow the tulpa concept but not the buddhism that it is derived from.

In that context, then yes, i guess i do.

This is why I say that you, unwittingly or not, are cherry picking from a philosophy. Which is perhaps why you do not have the answers to the questions that have been asked.


Hence these utter contradictions

While she has no physical form, she knows what is good, and what is bad, she is no idiot (okay...she is a bit lacking with intelligence at the moment) Tulpae are known for using memories from their creators, i would say that may have something to do with it.

And

Alexis seems to not fear fire, i sure as hell fear it.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 03, 2013, 07:54:08 AM
Hence these utter contradictions

While she has no physical form, she knows what is good, and what is bad, she is no idiot (okay...she is a bit lacking with intelligence at the moment) Tulpae are known for using memories from their creators, i would say that may have something to do with it.

And

Alexis seems to not fear fire, i sure as hell fear it.

How is that a contradiction, one can know what is bad and what is good, yet not fear it.

I know sharks are bad for your health (Om nom nom...), yet i do not fear them.

In this case, Alexis knows that she cannot be harmed by fire, but knows i can.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jynnan tonnix on October 03, 2013, 08:09:12 AM
So in her world, being burned is not painful? Or does she not feel pain? Why would she dislike the "sensation" of virtual water? You say she can sense it, but there is no actual water for her to sense on her beach, only through you going in actual water can she "know" what it feels like. And whether she "enjoys" it or not, the feeling of water on the skin is not worse than the feeling of fire. Or is it just harmless pyrotechnics in her world? How much reality crosses over?

This is sounding more and more like some sort of video game.

Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: Mrjason on October 03, 2013, 08:13:07 AM
How is that a contradiction, one can know what is bad and what is good, yet not fear it.
I know sharks are bad for your health (Om nom nom...), yet i do not fear them.

A bad analogy unless you fear fire whilst swimming.

The contradiction lies in you explaining that tulpa's concept of a corporeal experience is based on your own but then going on to say that it isn't.

How can alexis like being set on fire when it can't be set on fire as it has no physical form?

It seems to me you're making it up as you go along. For the reasons I posted above (which you agreed with) Whilst maybe not SPAG I would lable this SPAPH - Self Projection As Philosophy.

Edit Aaaaand I'm spent, with this arguement :)
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 03, 2013, 08:19:58 AM
So in her world, being burned is not painful? Or does she not feel pain? Why would she dislike the "sensation" of virtual water? You say she can sense it, but there is no actual water for her to sense on her beach, only through you going in actual water can she "know" what it feels like. And whether she "enjoys" it or not, the feeling of water on the skin is not worse than the feeling of fire. Or is it just harmless pyrotechnics in her world? How much reality crosses over?

This is sounding more and more like some sort of video game.

I would assume that she senses no pain or feeling from fire.
She knows what water is like, as i know what water is like, apparently she does not like getting her hooves wet, hence she stays away from water.
I wouldn't say water hurts her, she just dislikes it t a great extent.

Edit: Heheh, all my negative darwins are from screwtape, nice ;D.

Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 03, 2013, 09:10:55 AM
How can alexis like being set on fire when it can't be set on fire as it has no physical form?

Easy, simply light her on fire mentally.
Doesn't require physical form at all.

The contradiction lies in you explaining that tulpa's concept of a corporeal experience is based on your own but then going on to say that it isn't.

Simple, she has the framework on how to act from input, she just has to change it.

Edit: Screwtape, i have this to say ;D.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120824035017/mlpfanart/images/0/09/ChrysalisButthurt.png
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 03, 2013, 11:34:15 AM
*sorry for triple post, edit seems to be not working O.o*
Okay, screwtape, i admit, butthurt is not the right thing to say there.
But all of my - darwins are from you, this seems...partial, to an extent.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 03, 2013, 11:30:14 PM
*four post to get attention*

Mods, can you please just lock this monstrosity?
Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jdawg70 on October 04, 2013, 08:30:23 AM
Before this gets locked, I do have one more question:

This thread has gone on for 7 pages[1] and has had a number of participants.

If Alexis has some independent existence (with independent thoughts and feelings)...why hasn't she chimed in at all?  This topic is, after all, directly related to her, so I find it a little curious that she hasn't expressed any thoughts or feelings on the matter.
 1. Which isn't particularly huge on this board honestly.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 04, 2013, 08:34:23 AM
If Alexis has some independent existence (with independent thoughts and feelings)...why hasn't she chimed in at all?  This topic is, after all, directly related to her, so I find it a little curious that she hasn't expressed any thoughts or feelings on the matter.

What do you mean?
I had to use her to answer some of Anfauglir's questions.
She is incapable of speech at the moment, so its rather hard for her to communicate, but she can answer closed questions...

She also uses symbolism (she used a picture of a peanut to tell someone is crazy).

I'm fairly certain that Alexis, a tulpa, believes tulpae exist...
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jdawg70 on October 04, 2013, 08:40:26 AM
What do you mean?
I had to use her to answer some of Anfauglir's questions.
She is incapable of speech at the moment, so its rather hard for her to communicate, but she can answer closed questions...

She also uses symbolism (she used a picture of a peanut to tell someone is crazy).

I'm fairly certain that Alexis, a tulpa, believes tulpae exist...
Guess I missed those.  Could you point me to those posts?  Thanks.
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 04, 2013, 08:44:21 AM
Okay, i had to use Alexis once.

Quote
That MUST perforce mean that Alexis does NOT trust you, does it not?

I replied
Quote
Never thought of that.
Let me check.
...................................
Indeed she does not trust me to control her, luckily i do not control her then, no?

I had to ask her :|...
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: jdawg70 on October 04, 2013, 08:49:08 AM
Okay, i had to use Alexis once.

Quote
That MUST perforce mean that Alexis does NOT trust you, does it not?

I replied
Quote
Never thought of that.
Let me check.
...................................
Indeed she does not trust me to control her, luckily i do not control her then, no?

I had to ask her :|...
Ah.

Is there an instance where she wanted to express herself without your prodding?

I'm just getting more of the feeling that 'Alexis' is more like an algorithm you shove data through to process information, rather than any sort of entity with a personality.  You pretend this algorithm is sentient the same way that I pretend a computer is sentience when I yell at it or ask "Why the hell are you taking 37 minutes to transfer a 10MB file???".
Title: Re: Ask tulpae related questions here. (By Angus and Alexis)
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 04, 2013, 08:52:33 AM
Ah.

Is there an instance where she wanted to express herself without your prodding?

She is not entirely complete, and lacks a large amount of self action, so sadly, no.

I'm just getting more of the feeling that 'Alexis' is more like an algorithm you shove data through to process information, rather than any sort of entity with a personality.  You pretend this algorithm is sentient the same way that I pretend a computer is sentience when I yell at it or ask "Why the hell are you taking 37 minutes to transfer a 10MB file???".

At this point, she is kind of like that, she very rarely acts without my focus on her, she does do it rarely though.