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Main Discussion Zone => General Religious Discussion => Topic started by: natlegend on September 16, 2013, 12:45:20 AM

Title: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: natlegend on September 16, 2013, 12:45:20 AM
Every now and then, particularly after reading heaps of theist posts on WWGHA, I get to thinking "What if there IS a god?" But then I immediately dismiss the idea like a good atheist, the notion is ridiculous. But one thing has been bugging me for a bit now, what if there not only IS a god, but a heaven as well, and we ALL get to go there and live forever? I'm thinking, that would be awful, just plain terrible. Now don't get me wrong, I don't want to die anytime soon, I certainly don't have any sort of death-wish, but I was kinda looking forward to the eternal rest that comes with, well, being dead. Like really dead. No heaven, no hell, no limbo, no eternal sunshine of the spotless mind, just... plain... dead. Restful.

Is that weird? Has this idea occurred to anyone else?
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: William on September 16, 2013, 12:54:18 AM
Well the Pope just gave atheists a free pass to heaven - but my copy of the Heavenly Entertainment Program seems to have been lost in the mail. 
Can anyone fill us in the details?
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: Traveler on September 16, 2013, 01:36:33 AM
Death isn't restful. It simply is ... nothingness.

I've thought about it and its as restful as being under anesthesia or thinking about life before I was born. It is nothing. Doesn't appeal to me at all, but doesn't scare me either. Without consciousness, the feeling of restfulness is simply ... not there, as with any other feeling.
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: Nam on September 16, 2013, 02:24:32 AM
Is that weird? Has this idea occurred to anyone else?

Nope. Right there with ya.

-Nam
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: Mrjason on September 16, 2013, 04:01:42 AM
I like the Da Vinci quote on death;

Quote
As a well-spent day brings happy sleep, so life well used brings happy death

kind of brings me a bit of peace, as I hope that when death comes I'll be grateful for a break.
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: Add Homonym on September 16, 2013, 06:12:20 AM
I remember when I was a semi-brainwashed New Ager, when I was 16, and I explained the principle of reincarnation to a Christian (who obviously already knew about it). Although reincarnation seems like a logical, evolutionary concept, he didn't like it, because it meant having to do shit again and again. However he wasn't too concerned about what he'd be doing in heaven for eternity.

There is a tech cult that believes that quantum computers will eventually be able to re-compute us, and resurrect us.

http://www.thatsreallypossible.com/news/1068/revived-in-the-future/
http://turingchurch.com/2013/01/23/can-science-resurrect-the-dead/
http://transhumanity.net/articles/entry/can-science-resurrect-the-dead

In this case, the buggers will not leave us alone, so now is your time to opt out, by anticipating the protocol specifications for an opt out. I anticipate that the opt out format will be similar to an ordinary internet packet, starting with a version number (implicit 8 bit word on first byte, for version 01), then a word length, length length, length, language option,  ...  Important in version 1 is byte 5, where you specify whether you are joking or not. 01 means that you would like to be resurrected in the case  that it involves lots of interesting and pleasurable things, and power over whether to change your mind, later.

01 08 02 25 01 01  I FUCKING OPT OUT ::END

Mind you, we could also use XML
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: Nam on September 16, 2013, 06:28:28 PM
My mind only reads DOS.

-Nam
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: natlegend on September 16, 2013, 07:48:09 PM
It's just the going on and on and on bit that makes me feel tired. I'm very much looking forward to... nothingness. Imagine getting to heaven and St Peter saying "Well, you've got FOREVER to do whatever you like now". AAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!! KILL MEEEEE!!! Oh crap, I'm already dead. Maybe I'll just spend eternity going slowly crazier and crazier. Now there's a plan...
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: neopagan on September 16, 2013, 09:51:48 PM
I am with you there, natlegend... the whole concept used to freak me out and I am more than happy for eternal nothingness as opposed to eternal "wtf??"

I called it fear of heaven back in my believer days here on another thread that I started... http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25336.0.html
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: ParkingPlaces on September 16, 2013, 10:34:45 PM
If, when we died, we each got the opportunity to explore the universe forever, I might go for that. But sitting around and worshipping a god for even a minute would be unbearable.
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: natlegend on September 17, 2013, 01:18:30 AM
I believe even Q from Star Trek got bored of being omnimax...
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: William on September 17, 2013, 03:50:11 AM
When I was little my mother said to me: "William, my boy, when you get to heaven ALL your questions will be answered!"
(Apparently I was a pain in the ass with constant questions.)

I think that could be okay as long as they don't dump the whole lot on me first day   :)
If they like string them out one answer every Thursday for eternity that might work. 

Party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday,party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday,party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party ....

....  :?

... aaaaarg fuck no!   :(   Let me rethink that.
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: junebug72 on September 17, 2013, 04:47:10 AM
IMO, there is no such thing as time in the after world.  Time stops as soon as you leave the earth, at least slows down dramatically. We could be there infinitely and it only feel like a 100 years. 

The only good thing about dying is the anticipation of the beautiful journey it may offer.  Don't go by what the bible said use your imagination, you have one for a reason, there's no shame in using it.  I for one definitely consider my friends and family but I don't believe there are strangers in the after world.  I could go on and on infinitely about all the possibilities there are! In your version nat, you'll be resting but you want have the pleasure of knowing your doing it but if that gives you peace I do not want to disturb you. :) 

The spirit is not bound by flesh and there is a lot to explore out there.  I intend on finding a big fluffy cloud and resting with the most wonderful peace I've ever known.  I may be too excited at first.  Really I'd like to talk to our Maker first.  Plead my case for the blessing to help watch over my brothers and sisters of planet earth, after a much needed tour of the universe. ;)  I bet that's why we don't get hit by asteroids that would destroy mankind.  Those that have gone on before protect us. 

Until then I am bound with bars of bones and flesh and gravity.  I believe this life is preparing us for the next level of life!!!  I'm sorry folks but this is way more exciting than just being dead.  All is IMO, of course.   ;D I know we all have 1. 

I'll see you on the other side my friends!!!  The bible isn't God's word.  I don't believe in their hell!!!!!!  It's manipulation at it's core.

I bet most of you could spend a lot of time with people like Darwin, Einstein and Newton and many other great minds that you admire.  Oh my I could sing with Patsy Cline, there are so many singers I could sing forever and ever and ever!!!

The possibilities are endless when you open up your beautiful minds!!! ;) :) :laugh:
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: Add Homonym on September 17, 2013, 10:32:00 AM
I believe this life is preparing us for the next level of life!!!

Some people get more preparation than others. A lot of people die at age 1, after deciding that they have malnutrition, or herpes.

Oh, Lord, I am really prepared for the next life, because I died at age 1 of herpes.

Or, we can take the perspective of a person who has tripped on DMT. I ripped this off Bluelight, from here : http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/614553-Horrible-devastating-DMT-trip

If you read that thread, make sure you get to comment #29.

===============================================================================================


Ok so first some background information I am a very experienced psychedelic drug user, I've smoked weed every day for the last 5 years with the exception of tolerance breaks, I've tripped on LSD over a 100 times sometimes taking very large doses, and prior to this experience had smoked DMT about 8 or 9 times.

Also before this trip there were 3 trips that defined things for me I guess. The first one was a DOB trip where I took a ridiculously large amount and tripped for about 33 hours at peak! and it was the most euphoric pleasurable experience of my life and is probably what I've been trying to chase and get back all these years. The second was my first real acid trip with a large dose this trip was good and I believed everyone was me in a joyful way, then something happened at the 4 hour mark I somewhat became possessed so to speak by something undescribable and started to get a strong feeling that I was in fact the only thing here and all I see is merely fantasy blocking me from the fact that I'm all alone. Then the next couple of times I did a high dose acid trip I believed that everyone was me in different bodies and although this wasn't great I much prefered this than being all on my own with just imaginary figments, and this seemed to be true for me for quite some time.

Anyhow now to the trip, the day before I'd taken some LSD just a tab nothing intense just a bit of fun. In the morning I smoked some DMT not a large amount as I was quite cautious as I hadn't done it in a while it was rather pleasurable but nothing revelatory. So later on in the night in my room I decided I'd have another small amount of DMT the same amount as earlier in the day as I didnt feel like a fully blown trip just wanted a little fun.

So with the pipe loaded and incredible string bands "Three is a Green crown" song on I lit the DMT and literally as soon as the smoke came out reality snapped/disappeared/evaporated. As I blew the smoke out of the window this "Spirit" entered me, the smoke was barely out of my mouth when I started getting dragged through these coloured tunnels I was somewhere else somewhere more real than the world I once knew. As this was happening there was this insatiable feeling coming from this spirit (Who may be me or my sub concious) that I am the only one that exists and that everything is just imaginary, this made me feel very alone and bad, a picture of my mother came up and then faded away as if to say she never really loved me as she never really existed I just imagined her to deal with the reality of being alone. I then somewhat fainted face down in to a pillow and with eyes closed still in this different dimension felt as though I was dieing and returning to the true reality from whence I came, I then realised I was actually dieing my face was pressed against the pillow and I couldn't breathe at this point I lifted my head insantly and opened my eyes. (It is important to know that I wasn't controlling this I was merely observing I was possesed by what appeared to be me outside of the simulation coming in, also this all seemed to happen within 60 seconds real time). When I opened my eyes I was back in my room but half of it was different in a way I can't describe.

The horibble weird things didn't stop I started to realise I had already done this before and had this exact same trip as though I was living this all again and was angry at myself for smoking the DMT again (However now I've come down I realised I never did have this trip before, but I wasn't sure if I'd lived this life before and life is just an endless cycle of the same thing living the exact same life unaware until I'm on large dose psychedelic drugs). Then even freakier the incredible string band song has a line which goes "Life remembering Life" this line looped what seemed 8 times as I was actually remembering this perhaps infinite number of previous lives, in real life the line plays one time but here it played 8 times over and over and I had to turn my ipod off to stop it the negative creepy feeling at this point was beyond anything, also the song had 5 stars on the display when it only has four.

Then I had my pipe in my hand, there was a bowl on 3 sides of the pipe I kept spinning it and seeing and feeling a bowl on each of the three sides instead of the regular one again I had to throw my pipe for this to end, this was also strange as the song I had been listening to was called "THREE is a green crown", I then looked at facebook on my laptop to grind me back to reality hopefully somehow someone had posted a picture using a webcam effect had warped there face to look as though it only had one eye in the position of the third eye, (This had a profound effect in me too though I can fully remember what it was) then I somewhat gained control of my mind again but I was affected. The things that happened seemed to show there was no way reality is real, the fact that the song I chose corellated with my experience where I was remembering I'd done all this before with the song looping life remembering life I see no way how things can be real. None of this felt fake it felt more real than anything before and this makes me sad.

I spent the next couple of hours in a horibble state of anxious depression trying to convince myself it was all just fantasy but the facts seem against me. I drunk Brandy to ease the horrible inner tension and watched episode after episode of seinfeld in an attempt to bring me back to reality forget it all happened live ignorantly. What made me feel even worse both during the trip and in reflection was the fact I was putting myself through these horrible experiences I was the only one that existed and I was the one putting myself through this pain, for the first time in my life I felt somewhat evil for some reason I wanted to put myself through these masochistic experiences for the whole of eternity.

I started coming up with ideas that maybe the bible is true and I was posessed by some sort of demon convincing me of these bad things or that maybe it was a different part of me it felt like tha part of me that creates my dreams was controlling it and maybe I was just insane. Both of these options seemed much more enjoyable than being completely alone torturing myself for all eternity, but that's what seemed to be true.

Today is the next day surprisingly I had a somewhat decent sleep of 4 hours, I am still shaken up by it and still deep down believe that I am alone here but the possibility of demon posession and possible insanity gives me hope and allows me to keep going. I still am anxious as ever and took the day off work today to try and regain myself and inevitably I'll have to assume everyone does exist again even though I don't believe it.

Anyway that will be the last time I ever smoke DMT again and probably the last time I do LSD in fear of some sort of flashback, I would also strongly advise other users if in fact you exist and arent just a figment of my imagination that you don't smoke DMT ever, the mere fact this sort of experience is possible is too much of a risk, last nights trip was somewhat of a life wrecker and I now have to wait for time to heal my wounds. Also you must note that I've done double possibly even triple this dose before with nothing like this which confused me very much however this is the first time I have smoked it twice in one day.

Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: Anfauglir on September 17, 2013, 10:38:43 AM
I believe this life is preparing us for the next level of life!!!

Some people get more preparation than others. A lot of people die at age 1, after deciding that they have malnutrition, or herpes.

Oh, Lord, I am really prepared for the next life, because I died at age 1 of herpes.

That's because THIS is the final life, and their sins in the previous life are what caused them so much grief in this life.  Not in a "Buddhisty Karma constant rebirth" kinda way, just in a "you get two lives - and THIS is the second and final one" sense.

Makes as much sense to claim this is the afterlife as it does to claim this is the "pre-life".  It also answers a lot of nagging questions about "good things happening to bad people" if you assume this life is punishment for the last. 
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: junebug72 on September 18, 2013, 08:29:54 AM
I believe this life is preparing us for the next level of life!!!

Some people get more preparation than others. A lot of people die at age 1, after deciding that they have malnutrition, or herpes.

Oh, Lord, I am really prepared for the next life, because I died at age 1 of herpes.

That's because THIS is the final life, and their sins in the previous life are what caused them so much grief in this life.  Not in a "Buddhisty Karma constant rebirth" kinda way, just in a "you get two lives - and THIS is the second and final one" sense.

Makes as much sense to claim this is the afterlife as it does to claim this is the "pre-life".  It also answers a lot of nagging questions about "good things happening to bad people" if you assume this life is punishment for the last.

It is tragic when a child dies at one but it was not God's fault she died it's us humans.  Children dying is why I hold so strongly to belief in Heaven.
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: JeffPT on September 18, 2013, 08:52:27 AM
Wishing something was true doesn't make it so.

Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: William on September 18, 2013, 06:13:27 PM
Children dying is why I hold so strongly to belief in Heaven.

Junebug72, just curious about a few aspects of Heaven.
When a child (or say a stillborn baby) gets to Heaven, is it stuck in its child's mind or does it get like a software upgrade to an adult level of experience and wisdom?
And oldies who have developed dementia ... do they get a roll back to a previous version of themselves?
Do retards get a bug fix?
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: Azdgari on September 18, 2013, 06:27:37 PM
IMO, there is no such thing as time in the after world.  Time stops as soon as you leave the earth,

Then there would be no after-life.  Just a frozen, static instant.  No joy - joy is an experience.  No love - loving is an action.  Nothing good or bad would happen.  It would be, for all intents and purposes, the same as nonexistence.

at least slows down dramatically. We could be there infinitely and it only feel like a 100 years.

This is entirely different, and also kind of pointless.  "Slowing down" time only makes a difference when you're comparing two rates.  If all the time in the universe started going 100x slower than right now, nothing would seem any different to us, because our perception of time would slow down as well.  Heck, we wouldn't even notice if time stopped, for the same reason I explained above:  Our perception would be frozen.  It takes time to notice that time has (or hasn't) passed.
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: nogodsforme on September 18, 2013, 06:43:42 PM
This is what I wanna know. What part of me would actually go to heaven? The part that is a 14 year old wise-ass who got in trouble in bible study for asking the wrong questions? The part that loves violent murder mystery stories and super-hero movies? The part that likes to ogle the hot guys in said super-hero movies? The part that loves to hold newborn babies and kiss their tiny feets?  Or the old crochety deaf crippled part that I will be ten years from now?

It seems that all the things that make us human would be gone in favor of either wandering the universe forever, worshipping god forever, or repeating an earthly existence like in Groundhog Day, but a nice, pleasant one, forever.

With my luck, heaven will be sitting in a plastic chair next to a homeless drunk man at the DMV.  Without a magazine. Forever. I am with natlegend and the rest of ya-- that forever part seems so....eternal. :o
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: Anfauglir on September 19, 2013, 02:19:53 AM
This is what I wanna know. What part of me would actually go to heaven? The part that is a 14 year old wise-ass who got in trouble in bible study for asking the wrong questions? The part that loves violent murder mystery stories and super-hero movies? The part that likes to ogle the hot guys in said super-hero movies? The part that loves to hold newborn babies and kiss their tiny feets?  Or the old crochety deaf crippled part that I will be ten years from now?

Good point - I am a different person today to the one I was even a few years ago.  I know I will be different in future.  Frankly, the 15-year-old me would be an absolute nightmare to live with in heaven (heck, the me today is no picnic, but back then......!)

Not to mention the culture shock.  We are used to seeing grandpa as old, and our children as young.  What "age" are we all in heaven?  All mid-30s, maybe?  How weird will that be?

And specifically, those who die as babies, toddlers, children.  What physical aspect will they have in heaven?  Babies forever?  But more importantly, what will their mental aspect be?  Because if a baby is going to learn and develop and change in heaven, that that presumably means that so will everyone else.

And if change in heaven is possible, then it is eminently possible that someone there might one day change so that they no longer qualify.....then down the trapdoor they go.  Imagine a heaven where - with the REALITY of god revealed to you - you exist in a perpetual state of fear that tomorrow you may no longer measure up.

A dictatorship of the worst kind.
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: junebug72 on September 19, 2013, 05:13:27 AM
Wishing something was true doesn't make it so.

Doesn't make it not so either. ;)
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: junebug72 on September 19, 2013, 05:26:48 AM
Children dying is why I hold so strongly to belief in Heaven.

Junebug72, just curious about a few aspects of Heaven.
When a child (or say a stillborn baby) gets to Heaven, is it stuck in its child's mind or does it get like a software upgrade to an adult level of experience and wisdom?
And oldies who have developed dementia ... do they get a roll back to a previous version of themselves?
Do retards get a bug fix?

How am I supposed to know that?  I believe it is our spirits not our flesh that move on.  It certainly wouldn't be heaven if our spirits were crippled.  I don't see how a spirit could be crippled.
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: Brakeman on September 19, 2013, 05:38:02 AM
Without time in heaven, there is no motion. With no motion, material or otherwise, it is simple a frozen state which would very similar to death to us.
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: William on September 19, 2013, 07:07:19 AM
How am I supposed to know that?  I believe it is our spirits not our flesh that move on.  It certainly wouldn't be heaven if our spirits were crippled.
I wasn't asking about people crippled in the flesh.  I was asking about mental states i.e. infantile, senile, and retarded.
Do our "spirits" retain any characteristics of who we are in this life - our personas, our names, memories of our loved ones, and experiences?


I don't see how a spirit could be crippled.

Okay fine I get that, lets move beyond crippled. 
Could a person with dissociative identity disorder have multiple spirits who all end up in Heaven? 
Would the spirits be linked into one, or separate? 
Would they recognise each other? 
What if one of the split personalities on earth was a real badass, and the other a complete sweetie?  Could sweetie get right away from the badass in Heaven?
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: Mrjason on September 19, 2013, 07:39:12 AM
^^^ wouldn't the badass go to hell and the sweetie go to heaven?
Assuming that there is a corrorally bad place...
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: 12 Monkeys on September 19, 2013, 09:13:34 AM
Heaven is to every believer exactly what they want it to be. If they believe it is a place to hang with dead loved ones on streets of gold,it is. If they believe it is endless roads on which to drive a Ferrari,it is. The stark reality of getting up every morning to sing praise to a nasty god for eternity hardly enters their minds.
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: Anfauglir on September 19, 2013, 09:16:34 AM
Ah - but there's no need for sleep in heaven, hence no getting up - you give praise all the time.
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: neopagan on September 19, 2013, 11:06:11 AM
maybe that's why these effing crickets sing my praises every day in my office... I'm their god?
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: Traveler on September 19, 2013, 11:24:16 AM
I remember several people telling me that only our souls go to heaven, we have no bodies, and that the trials of earth are forgotten. If that were true, I can't imagine what the point of being on earth was supposed to be.
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: Nam on September 19, 2013, 11:45:40 AM
I remember several people telling me that only our souls go to heaven, we have no bodies, and that the trials of earth are forgotten. If that were true, I can't imagine what the point of being on earth was supposed to be.

Suffering for past sin.

-Nam
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: neopagan on September 19, 2013, 11:55:24 AM
I remember several people telling me that only our souls go to heaven, we have no bodies, and that the trials of earth are forgotten. If that were true, I can't imagine what the point of being on earth was supposed to be.

Someone told me that very thing at work today. She also said she could "sense her soul" especially when she is saying something that is coming out wrong but "deep inside" she knows what she means - in her soul.  I asked if she knew what organ was responsible for this activity, but she was lost in babblespeak...  I also asked how that was distinguished from her thoughts, but again nothing coherent.   

I never espoused this stuff as a believer... where does it come from, other than SPAG?
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: Nam on September 19, 2013, 12:00:49 PM
I remember several people telling me that only our souls go to heaven, we have no bodies, and that the trials of earth are forgotten. If that were true, I can't imagine what the point of being on earth was supposed to be.

Someone told me that very thing at work today. She also said she could "sense her soul" especially when she is saying something that is coming out wrong but "deep inside" she knows what she means - in her soul.  I asked if she knew what organ was responsible for this activity, but she was lost in babblespeak...  I also asked how that was distinguished from her thoughts, but again nothing coherent.   

I never espoused this stuff as a believer... where does it come from, other than SPAG?

The relentless activity of squeezing out a turd?

-Nam
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: nogodsforme on September 19, 2013, 02:13:56 PM
I remember several people telling me that only our souls go to heaven, we have no bodies, and that the trials of earth are forgotten. If that were true, I can't imagine what the point of being on earth was supposed to be.

If we forget our lives on earth, what will be in our --for lack of a better term-- brains? What will the soul consist of, if not our memories and personalities? Without a personality forged in the ups and downs of our earthly existence, who would we be? Without memories, we would have no anger, no regret, no curiosity, not even joy at being reunited with loved ones, or relief that we are in heaven instead of earth or hell.

That implies that all the souls will be identical, just disembodied brainless ghost zombies floating around. Does not sound like any heaven. Sounds horrible, like the Matrix.  :o
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: 12 Monkeys on September 19, 2013, 07:37:11 PM
Again....theists may not believe the soul is body-less. Heaven is whatever they want it to be.
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: junebug72 on September 20, 2013, 06:15:25 AM
How am I supposed to know that?  I believe it is our spirits not our flesh that move on.  It certainly wouldn't be heaven if our spirits were crippled.
I wasn't asking about people crippled in the flesh.  I was asking about mental states i.e. infantile, senile, and retarded.
Do our "spirits" retain any characteristics of who we are in this life - our personas, our names, memories of our loved ones, and experiences?


I don't see how a spirit could be crippled.

Okay fine I get that, lets move beyond crippled. 
Could a person with dissociative identity disorder have multiple spirits who all end up in Heaven? 
Would the spirits be linked into one, or separate? 
Would they recognise each other? 
What if one of the split personalities on earth was a real badass, and the other a complete sweetie?  Could sweetie get right away from the badass in Heaven?

That is an antagonizing question.  I don't think you have put any deep thought whatsoever into how Heaven would be.  Even an atheist should be able to come up with some sort of celestial paradise.   If there is a heaven it's supposed to be a place of beauty, peace and rest.  The much needed rest at the end of a long hard journey.


smites are for babies....I give them up about 6 weeks ago and I'm feeling so much better.  Nobody here can change my karma :P.

See you on the other side. ;)


Again....theists may not believe the soul is body-less. Heaven is whatever they want it to be.

Heaven is what it is, there is no harm in using your  imagination.  Why do we have one if we can not use it to imagine our afterlives?
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: William on September 20, 2013, 07:46:25 AM
Even an atheist should be able to come up with some sort of celestial paradise.   
But that would just be making it as I go along. I'm trying to find truth.
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: Don_Quixote on September 20, 2013, 03:11:47 PM
I have an easier solution. If we get to reincarnate into whoever we want and erasing our memory, our sense of eternity will be forever erased and get to live again without the fear of eternity. Hope I made myself clear  :laugh:
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: anthony_retford on September 20, 2013, 06:59:16 PM
I bet most of you could spend a lot of time with people like Darwin, Einstein and Newton and many other great minds that you admire.  Oh my I could sing with Patsy Cline, there are so many singers I could sing forever and ever and ever!!!

Reminds me of a segment in a life enriching course back in the 70's. Seems there was this young beautiful woman who knew Prince Charming would come for her. So she waited at the gate for two years until she saw in the distance this wondrous knight coming her way. Wow, was she excited and she rushed inside to make herself look even better, then rushed outside to greet him. Closer and closer he got and was he handsome - the most handsome Prince in the country. Now he was just 50 yards away and she stepped out the gate to be swept of her feet. 40, 30, 20 then 10 yards and she was in heaven, reaching out for him. But he took no notice of her and just rode past.

Seems we would be in the same boat with Darwin, Einstein and Newton - our levels of experience and knowledge would be far different than theirs that we would not be happy in their company. I am in a similar situation with a Chinese wife. She does not have any common experiences before we met and there are long periods of silence, which would be filled in another relationship with an American wife.
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: JeffPT on September 20, 2013, 09:06:47 PM
That is an antagonizing question.  I don't think you have put any deep thought whatsoever into how Heaven would be.

Actually, I think the exact opposite is true. I think you, Junebug, have put so little actual thought into the concept of heaven that you can't truly assess whether or not it would be good or bad to go there. You simply let your emotions tell you how great it would be. The problems that William brought up can only be considered if you think deeper. You basically responded with, "heaven is great, that's all you need to know." What is less deep than that?

The questions asked are real questions that deserve an answer. There are many more.
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: junebug72 on September 21, 2013, 04:20:47 AM
That is an antagonizing question.  I don't think you have put any deep thought whatsoever into how Heaven would be.

Actually, I think the exact opposite is true. I think you, Junebug, have put so little actual thought into the concept of heaven that you can't truly assess whether or not it would be good or bad to go there. You simply let your emotions tell you how great it would be. The problems that William brought up can only be considered if you think deeper. You basically responded with, "heaven is great, that's all you need to know." What is less deep than that?

The questions asked are real questions that deserve an answer. There are many more.

What does that have to do with whether the question was antagonizing?  Why dream up problems for heaven?  That just does not make sense.  It's just another attempt to try and explain what we can't understand.  This is not a serious inquiry into the existence of heaven.  It's more like a mockery of what others believe. 

Those words come out your mouth not mine.  I really hate it when you atheists put words in my mouth.    I totally said we can not know what heaven is like.  I totally said that.

The word heaven in my definition is a place where there is nothing put peace.  I put my faith in the Powerful Source hence we came, in the beauty and splendor of the universe.


Sure don't take much to get a thumbs up.  I think it's funny that's all it takes to impress you/whoever gave the thumbs up! hehehehehehe :laugh:
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: junebug72 on September 21, 2013, 04:53:01 AM
Even an atheist should be able to come up with some sort of celestial paradise.   
But that would just be making it as I go along. I'm trying to find truth.

What is the imagination for? 

Did you ever think if we knew the truth about heaven we'd flock there like birds and never go through this part of life?  There have been many times I felt like going not even knowing with absolute certainty but believing it is better than here.  What stopped me, I'll tell you what, the unknown.  That's what.  If we had tour guides and brochures we'd all take that one way trip to peace.  We don't though and that is why,IMO.  We would not care to cure disease it would be a different life.  It would have a profound effect about the way we don't live this life.

I wish I could help you find your truth I really do. 
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: William on September 21, 2013, 09:40:10 AM
What is the imagination for?
I imagine it is likely that the capacity to imagine evolved because it's a big advantage in planning ahead for different scenarios and contingencies. Think of primitive hunters imagining how to bring down a mammoth with just puny spears and teamwork, talking tactics before the hunt about possible 'what-ifs' and ideas to avoid being killed, while also imagining a threat to families left behind from predators and enemy tribes, and then taking action to minimise risks. 

Did you ever think if we knew the truth about heaven we'd flock there like birds and never go through this part of life?  There have been many times I felt like going not even knowing with absolute certainty but believing it is better than here.  What stopped me, I'll tell you what, the unknown. 
That is a brave admission of ignorance Junebug72.  Actually I'm going to +1 the integrity of it  :)

That's what.  If we had tour guides and brochures we'd all take that one way trip to peace.  We don't though and that is why,IMO.  We would not care to cure disease it would be a different life.  It would have a profound effect about the way we don't live this life.
These are powerful thoughts from you Junebug72.
And since there is no clarity or evidence of an afterlife we really should place greater value on our lives and the lives we can touch here on this earth - where we know for sure it's all real. This is the life where we know love exists and makes a difference.
Strong beliefs about second chances to be happy diminishes our lives right here and now.  Islamic suicide bombers have clear beliefs about their own post-bang privileges in heaven!  Think of the amazing case of Mother Teresa, who many people see as an icon of love, but who was so intent on preparing sick people for an afterlife that she stopped worrying about cures, diagnosing illnesses, using pain killers, and even let basic hygiene standards slip ... stopped using fresh or disinfected hypodermic needles on patients  :-\

On the other hand if there was indeed a loving God out there, why wouldn't it be ABSOLUTELY clear about the incentive of heaven and the hurdles to qualify. What does it have to lose?  Something as amazing as a God could easily come up with an unambiguous policy: "My people, exercise pure love in all your dealings with each other, the animals, and the environment. Don't try check out early without my consent, before you've completed the tests I give you, or you will disqualify yourself from the reward. Your reward, if you pass the pure love test, will be precisely as follows ...."

But there's nothing like that - only our various theologies, conflicting ideas, and imprecise imaginings.  All completely lacking in foundation except theology - basically the cunning and manipulative stories of schizotypal shamans contrived to secure their own little slice of heaven on earth in this life.  There no evidence, no physics, and no sound reasoning to back up any of humankind's wild imaginings about heaven. 

I wish I could help you find your truth I really do.
Yep, that would be nice - I understand and hold nothing against you for not being able to help.
So meanwhile I'm going to live my life as if it is the only one I'll ever have. (I wish I hadn't wasted a few decades of my life through being brainwashed as a child and then grappling with the obvious gap between reality and religious belief.)  For the rest of my life I want to act with as much integrity and courage as I can muster. No beliefs where there is no evidence. Happy to change belief where there is new evidence.  BS detector turned up to the maximum setting.

If there is a God or some kind of supreme thing out there with a place for me after death, let it make itself known to me.  My mind is open.
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: natlegend on September 21, 2013, 08:03:34 PM
My point is, after 80 years or so of living, I think I'd had enough. Time now for nothing. I realise I won't know I'm dead, but that's sorta the point too. Before I was conceived I didn't know about it and that was ok, so when I'm dead and I don't know about it that'll be fine too. Eternity is just... too much...
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: thunderridge on September 21, 2013, 11:34:35 PM
Every now and then, particularly after reading heaps of theist posts on WWGHA, I get to thinking "What if there IS a god?" But then I immediately dismiss the idea like a good atheist, the notion is ridiculous. But one thing has been bugging me for a bit now, what if there not only IS a god, but a heaven as well, and we ALL get to go there and live forever? I'm thinking, that would be awful, just plain terrible. Now don't get me wrong, I don't want to die anytime soon, I certainly don't have any sort of death-wish, but I was kinda looking forward to the eternal rest that comes with, well, being dead. Like really dead. No heaven, no hell, no limbo, no eternal sunshine of the spotless mind, just... plain... dead. Restful.

Is that weird? Has this idea occurred to anyone else?

I remember a while back you said death is like the ultimate sleep in. Nothing to fear  there.  I just want to sleep in after death.
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: junebug72 on September 22, 2013, 05:56:29 AM
Yes William a road map would be nice.  I can't argue with you there. 

Yes many things that mankind has imagined are being used today.  Our imaginations are our most valuable asset,IMO.  So why then condemn the use of the imagination when it comes to our existence?   Our imaginations will find the answer if it is even findable, right? 
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: Azdgari on September 22, 2013, 08:33:41 AM
Our imaginations will tend to find out lots of wrong answers, if all we have to go on is imagination.  They might be rich, entertaining wrong answers.  But there still won't be anything behind them other than imagination.

Why do you condemn the use of rational thought when it comes to assessing our imaginations?
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: Jag on September 22, 2013, 10:35:16 AM
Our imaginations will find the answer if it is even findable, right?

No, but our imaginations might point science in the right direction, perhaps. Our imaginations are only a tool, and intangible until action is taken on what was imagined. Lucky for the rest of us scientists make far better use of their imaginations than most people do, by keeping it directed and focused. They aren't the only ones - engineers and inventors come quickly to mind, among others.

"If you can imagine it, you can achieve it" - that's a variation on a common inspirational phrase. What it should really say, however, is the following : Provided it doesn't violate the laws of physics, if it can be imagined, it can potentially be achieved by someone.

I can imagine all kinds of things that cannot be achieved here on planet Earth, because, for example, gravity works all the time.

Either a god exists, or it doesn't. Either heaven exists or it doesn't. Imagination has no bearing on it. other than to satisfy the very human desire for life to have meaning and make some sort of sense. It's not an argument that can support the existence of a deity, an afterlife, or a heaven.

On a more personal note, I also realize that you have deeply personal reasons for needing to hold on to this belief at this point in your life - I'm a little concerned about you getting involved in these kind of conversations here, now, at a time that you already have plenty of REAL challenges to worry about. If this kind of discussion is helpful (giving you something to fight against maybe?), that's fine, but consider the consequences please. Your health is far more important than this particular argument - you know we'll still be having it when you are healthy again. You can of course tell me to MMOB - you are perfectly capable of setting your own boundaries.  ;)
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: Anfauglir on September 23, 2013, 03:43:14 AM
Seems we would be in the same boat with Darwin, Einstein and Newton - our levels of experience and knowledge would be far different than theirs that we would not be happy in their company. I am in a similar situation with a Chinese wife. She does not have any common experiences before we met and there are long periods of silence, which would be filled in another relationship with an American wife.

Thats it exactly.  But in addition, what on earth makes some people so full of themselves that they think that anyone in heaven will be over the moon when random stranger approaches them and butts in on their conversations?  We all like to think that we are on a par with those we admire, whether intellectually, creatively, or whatever, and in some cases possibly we are.  But that still doesn't mean they would necessarily be pleased to see us.

If I turned up on Brian Cox's doorstep today, and said "Hi Brian, let's talk black holes" he would most likely call the police.  Why on earth would he choose to engage with a random stranger that he never met before - he probably gets a lot of people approaching him.

Now translate that to heaven, where there are billions more people, AND no hassles over travel.  "celebrities" in heaven probably have great queues of the hoi-polloi waiting to screech a song with them, or share their great deep thoughts about how black holes are really snooker pockets.  Nice though those celebs may be, the chances of any of us getting into their circle of cloe friends is next to zero.

Heaven is certainly NOT going to be "us" hob-knobbing with the great and good.  Because the great and good will want to be with the friends and family they had on earth.
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: Jonny-UK on September 23, 2013, 01:41:14 PM
I seem to remember as a child being told that we will all be reunited with our loved ones in heaven.
Keeping things simple here but imagine someone looses their wife/husband early on in life.
Many years later they find love again. After death would all 3 live happily together? Would love 1 be happy to be around love 2?  Just doesn't work does it?
Blithe Spirit springs to mind.
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: neopagan on September 23, 2013, 01:57:54 PM
^^^ several of jeezus' biographers fed him a similar question from the Sadsuckeers about dead spouses showing up in heaven and JHC further muddied the topic by saying no marriage in heaven.  So all this talk of seeing loved ones, at least in the sense of a loved one being a spouse - appears to be part of the erased data from our future robot memory sticks. 
 
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: Jonny-UK on September 23, 2013, 02:08:37 PM
  So all this talk of seeing loved ones, at least in the sense of a loved one being a spouse - appears to be part of the erased data from our future robot memory sticks. 
 
So we don't even get to keep our memories.What ever happened to mans free will? The rules seem even worse when we die or will we not be allowed to remember it was better being alive?
Robots indeed
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: epidemic on September 23, 2013, 03:05:23 PM
Is it official that we will not have our memories?   I.e. specified in the holy scriptures?
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: neopagan on September 23, 2013, 03:10:51 PM
Only a mind-numbed robot would not spend a lot of time weeping over their loved ones burning in hell for all eternity, wondering why they are no longer married to their beloved spouse (or spouses, if that's the case), and wondering what happened to the billions burned up on the earth to make way for the new heavens and new earth...
Is it explicitly stated "no memories in heaven" in the 'holy' scriptures - no, but what is explicitly stated about that murky, wishy-washy, be whatever you want it to be place?
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: natlegend on September 23, 2013, 08:10:25 PM
My born-again christian aunt says she worries all the time about how when she (inevitably) reaches heaven, I'll be burning in hell. She realises I'm a nice person and it pains her to think that just because I'm atheist I'm gonna fry.

I dunno about anyone else, but if I were a christian with family that I loved who were atheist, that sort of thing would really keep me up at night.
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: Azdgari on September 23, 2013, 10:11:54 PM
Natlegend, just remind her that you morally deserve that punishment.  It's justice, and she should feel good that divine justice is being served to someone who, in God's eyes, is evil enough to deserve eternal torture.
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: epidemic on September 24, 2013, 08:48:28 AM
Natlegend, just remind her that you morally deserve that punishment.  It's justice, and she should feel good that divine justice is being served to someone who, in God's eyes, is evil enough to deserve eternal torture.

Now who can argue with that logic?

it seems to be the general concensus that the memories of bad things will be removed but several verses seem to indicate that we will know our loved ones, and joys of our earthly existence. 

Of course if you remove the pain from our lives that just raises more questions.  I have heard that pain in our lives helps us appreciate the good.  We are also tested by god with pain.  If we are to maintain the lessons learned in life, then I would guess we would need to remember the source of those lessons (the pain)








neopagan
Can you show me where that is it stated your memories are wiped out.
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: neopagan on September 24, 2013, 09:09:12 AM
neopagan
Can you show me where that is it stated your memories are wiped out.

Like I said, nowhere does it say "memories wiped out" but try this verse on for size... how would it occur otherwise?
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Title: Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
Post by: jdawg70 on September 24, 2013, 03:35:48 PM
My born-again christian aunt says she worries all the time about how when she (inevitably) reaches heaven, I'll be burning in hell. She realises I'm a nice person and it pains her to think that just because I'm atheist I'm gonna fry.

I dunno about anyone else, but if I were a christian with family that I loved who were atheist, that sort of thing would really keep me up at night.
If you were a True ChristianTM, you'd have ditched that family you loved.