whywontgodhealamputees.com

Main Discussion Zone => Religion & Society => Topic started by: screwtape on September 05, 2013, 12:25:26 PM

Title: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: screwtape on September 05, 2013, 12:25:26 PM
I have not heard anything about this prior, but I know PZ Myers has been doing a lot of posting over the last year or two about the apparently rampant chauvanism and mysogyny in the atheist movement.  Now, Skepchick has this :

Quote
Dear Muslima

Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.

Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .

And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.

Richard

http://skepchick.org/2011/07/the-privilege-delusion/

WTF, Dawk?

Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: One Above All on September 05, 2013, 12:33:27 PM
BM
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Hatter23 on September 05, 2013, 12:40:55 PM
I have not heard anything about this prior, but I know PZ Myers has been doing a lot of posting over the last year or two about the apparently rampant chauvanism and mysogyny in the atheist movement.  Now, Skepchick has this :

Quote
Dear Muslima

Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.

Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .

And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.

Richard

http://skepchick.org/2011/07/the-privilege-delusion/

WTF, Dawk?

Sounds like a reasonable mocking of an unreasonable skwalking. The incident sounds like a overly sensitive feminist freaked out because they got hit on by a person they didn't want to be hit on by.

RD is perfectly correct to mock this.

Unless the man touched her(more than just a tap on the shoulder) that's a different story. But an unwanted verbal advance? Grow the fuck up. I've had unwanted verbal advances by both sexes and I'm straight; it isn't an assault. Occasionally slimey, sure. I didn't appreciate the offer of money. But BFD!

Furthermore, the mocking had an extra point. An occasional unwanted advance is a hell of a better alternative to a sex and gender straightjacketed society. It is a very minor cost of freedom.

Also most unintentionally hillarous name for the article. She is operating under the privlege delusion.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Dante on September 05, 2013, 12:47:03 PM
http://skepchick.org/2011/07/the-privilege-delusion/

For some reason, that page wont load on my PC.

So alas, I remain confused. Why the Dawkins hate, screwtape?

edit to add:

So, after a probably too brief internet search and read[1], the synopsis is that Watson was insulted because a man had the audacity to ask her to have a conversation with him over some coffee in his hotel room?

Was her problem that it was:

An enclosed elevator?

His hotel room?

He asked her?

I don't get it, so I'd have to agree with Hatter at this point. She should get over herself.
 1. I ain't got all fraggin' day, ya know!
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Nam on September 05, 2013, 01:19:57 PM
Do we know he wrote it? And even if he did it sounds overly sarcastic and in-your-face. Though I wouldn't be as insensitive to a person who went through such abuse, it does depend on two things:

1. Did he actually write it? and if so
2. What's the context?

-Nam
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: neopagan on September 05, 2013, 01:28:34 PM
^^^ I hear those questions a lot about another quite famous document around here.  ;)
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Hatter23 on September 05, 2013, 01:30:25 PM
Do we know he wrote it? And even if he did it sounds overly sarcastic and in-your-face. Though I wouldn't be as insensitive to a person who went through such abuse, it does depend on two things:

1. Did he actually write it? and if so
2. What's the context?

-Nam

It was in response to "elevatorgate" which PZ Meyers and Matt Dilahunty apparently weren't rational enough and  were pulled into Skepchick's imagined victimhood for being invited up to a man's room for coffee during an atheist convention in the summer of 2011.










Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: screwtape on September 05, 2013, 02:14:41 PM
Was her problem that it was:

her problem is the persistent and relentless harrassment.  In her words:
Quote
And then, for the past few years as the audience for Skepchick and SGU grew, I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.

This is the kind of thing she apparently has to put up with:(NSFW)
http://wy3mg1xgify37n21x223cw7xl1.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/Screen-shot-2011-07-05-at-3.54.00-PM.png (http://wy3mg1xgify37n21x223cw7xl1.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/Screen-shot-2011-07-05-at-3.54.00-PM.png)

So after a few years of this, someone propositioned her.  What was her reaction?
Quote
I said, “Guys, don’t do that.” Really, that’s what I said. I didn’t call for an end to sex. I didn’t accuse the man in my story of rape. I didn’t say all men are monsters. I said, “Guys, don’t do that.”

I do not see victimhood, imagined or real.  I do not see how this is deserving of mockery and derision.  I really don't. 

Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Dante on September 05, 2013, 03:02:10 PM
Was her problem that it was:

her problem is the persistent and relentless harrassment.  In her words:
Quote
And then, for the past few years as the audience for Skepchick and SGU grew, I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.

Then, I can wholly imagine her preception being skewed. Thanks for the backstory, I was unaware. It's immature, to be sure, but methinks that's some of the baggage that unfortunately comes with fame. And she seems to have sought out that fame, regardless if it was within the "rational" community or not. It doesn't mean I condone it. Rather it means she should have seen it coming.

Quote
So after a few years of this, someone propositioned her.  What was her reaction?
Quote
I said, “Guys, don’t do that.” Really, that’s what I said. I didn’t call for an end to sex. I didn’t accuse the man in my story of rape. I didn’t say all men are monsters. I said, “Guys, don’t do that.”

I do not see victimhood, imagined or real.  I do not see how this is deserving of mockery and derision.  I really don't.

"Guys, don't propostion me, under any circumstances." Is that really all she's saying? There must be more to it than that. Because sorry, but that's not the way the world works. Men are going to proposition women, and women are going to propostion men.
 
I've read a little more since the posting this morning, and it's enabled me to sympathize minimally, but it still seems a mountain was made from the proverbial molehill. Was it just online media reaction that fueled the entire fiasco? Would RD have made the statement had it not become a circus?
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on September 05, 2013, 03:03:33 PM
What makes it worse is Dawkins was there at the conference and heard her speak on the topic of sexualization and harassment the evening this happened to her.  In the very same video she mentioned how exited she was to be in proximity to him. 

I can totally relate to her statements and issues.  I am not unattractive.  I have found myself in situations where a male acted like he wanted to be my friend when he really just wanted to get in my pants.  A lot.  To the point where unfortunately I am suspicious when any man is friendly toward me.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on September 05, 2013, 03:12:51 PM

"Guys, don't proposition me, under any circumstances." Is that really all she's saying? There must be more to it than that.

Yes, there is more to it than that.  Did you watch the video?  Did you read her statement?  She is saying, "Guys, when it is 4:00 am in a foreign country in a hotel and a women just spoke at length about sexual harassment and being objectified and how she has received rape threats and you have never met her before please don't follow her on to an elevator and ask her back to your room for coffee."

IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH?
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Dante on September 05, 2013, 03:16:39 PM


Yes, there is more to it than that.  Did you watch the video?  Did you read her statement? 

For some reason, that page wont load on my PC.

IS THAT FUCKING CLEAR ENOUGH?


So, nope. Thanks for asking tho!



Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on September 05, 2013, 03:31:07 PM


Yes, there is more to it than that.  Did you watch the video?  Did you read her statement? 

For some reason, that page wont load on my PC.

IS THAT FUCKING CLEAR ENOUGH?


So, nope. Thanks for asking tho!

So, you decided to judge her without reading her story, nice.  If I were a douchebag I would smite you for that.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Dante on September 05, 2013, 03:36:37 PM

So, you decided to judge her without reading her story, nice.  If I were a douchebag I would smite you for that.

"Guys, don't propostion me, under any circumstances." Is that really all she's saying? There must be more to it than that. Because sorry, but that's not the way the world works. Men are going to proposition women, and women are going to propostion men.
 

I'm not seeing the judgement of which you speak. Show me.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Nam on September 05, 2013, 03:57:36 PM
So....how's it going?

-Nam
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on September 05, 2013, 04:00:51 PM


It's immature, to be sure,

Quote
she should have seen it coming.



Quote
"Guys, don't propostion me, under any circumstances." Is that really all she's saying? There must be more to it than that. Because sorry, but that's not the way the world works. Men are going to proposition women, and women are going to propostion men.

Quote
but it still seems a mountain was made from the proverbial molehill.

Maybe I perceive these comment as judgey when that was not your intention.  Maybe some of us women get a little irritated over this topic.  I have been on the receiving end of the coffee guy too many times to count.  Some times the intention is to have coffee.  A lot of times they aren't.  And we are wrong if we don't want to have to deduce that at 4 in the morning.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Dante on September 05, 2013, 04:01:32 PM
I am not unattractive.  I have found myself in situations where a male acted like he wanted to be my friend when he really just wanted to get in my pants. 

Or possibly your heart as well? By that I mean, most relationships start off with a physical attraction, and progress from there. So yeah, starting off trying to befriend an attractive woman seems like the natural, and not unseemly, thing to do. Of course, there are the d-bags out there just looking for another notch on the bedpost, and care nothing for the feelings or self-worth of their one nighter. That's why a friendly relationship should be established before the horizontal shuffle begins. If you're into that sort of thing anyway.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Dante on September 05, 2013, 04:04:36 PM



It's immature, to be sure,

That was referring to the d-bags hounding her online. Sorry for the miscommunication.

Quote
Quote
she should have seen it coming.

Not judging, just stating a fact of fame.

Maybe I perceive these comment as judgey when that was not your intention.  Maybe some of us women get a little irritated over this topic.  I have been on the receiving end of the coffee guy too many times to count.  Some times the intentions  to have coffee.  A lot of times they aren't.

See my comment about relationships a few posts above. You're right, sometimes, they aren't.

Quote
  And we are wrong if we don't want to have to deduce that at 4 in the morning.

Deducing it at 4 in the morning is one thing, and that's all the backstory I had to work with. Deducing it after her symposium, which all I have is your account and I'm taking your word, is quite another. Yeah, it was a d-bag move on his part.

But she is kinda hot.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on September 05, 2013, 04:08:32 PM
That's why a friendly relationship should be established before the horizontal shuffle begins. If you're into that sort of thing anyway.

And when oh, so friendly men disappear or grow cold  when you don't want to get horizontal within hours/days of meeting them you're considered just not in to that sort of thing...
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Hatter23 on September 05, 2013, 04:14:04 PM
I suppose I am touchy on the subject after getting in trouble for looking at women in high school....because I was unpopular.

Said women were doing thing that were primping for attention, I looked. I was deemed unacceptable and therefore reported to school authorities. If the men they wanted to look at them, no such action would have occured.

School authorities sided with the women. I was in trouble for having the audacity of looking, because the women attracted my eyeballs and not of the popular jock they were going for.

Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Nam on September 05, 2013, 04:17:21 PM
That's why a friendly relationship should be established before the horizontal shuffle begins. If you're into that sort of thing anyway.

And when oh, so friendly men disappear or grow cold  when you don't want to get horizontal within hours/days of meeting them you're considered just not in to that sort of thing...

If it makes you feel better about me, I'm a giver. And though, being a guy, I usually want to get into a girls pants on the first date, I actually wait a couple of weeks before I do. Unless it's a friend with  benefits, that's what they are there for (and for them, what I'm there for) but I would never use rape or sexual abuse as a tool, even if she wanted me too (and a couple in the past have), not my thing. I'm a lover, not a fucker.

:)

-Nam
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Nam on September 05, 2013, 04:25:08 PM
I suppose I am touchy on the subject after getting in trouble for looking at women in high school....because I was unpopular.

Said women were doing thing that were primping for attention, I looked. I was deemed unacceptable and therefore reported to school authorities. If the men they wanted to look at them, no such action would have occured.

School authorities sided with the women. I was in trouble for having the audacity of looking, because the women attracted my eyeballs and not of the popular jock they were going for.



Peeping Tom or just staring? Because if the latter: what medieval high school you go to? You should've went to my high school. People (gay/lesbian/straight) had sex in our bathrooms and when the school removed the doors to the bathrooms to stop them,bit didn't in any way, shape, or form. I once saw two girls, naked eating each other out. It was my first time seeing it in person. I was 15. It was beautiful.

Of course more than 6,000 kids went to my high school, there's really no controlling that. I mean my JROTC class had a car wash on campus to raise money for something, and all the girls wore white shirts and no bras. That was also a beautiful day. I was 16 at that time.

There were many, many more beautiful days but too much to type here.

I loved my school.

-Nam
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Nam on September 05, 2013, 04:41:33 PM
One Above All,

Your smite is unwarranted.

1. I never said, or implied, any or all guys are like me when it comes to sex. I was telling her that's the way I am. That's it. I was implying that pigs like you and others here weren't all like you. That when it comes to sex, and love, and all that guys like me exist.

2. Stop being a douche. And that goes for the crest here who thinks it's okay to say nasty shit to attractive women just on the basis they are attractive.

3. You should smite yourself or the other idiots here who feel that a girl must enjoy being degraded because she may act a certain way, or wear clothes that may or may not be what some think is inappropriate in their minds (like back of pants that say a phrase of some kind etc.,) just because they may be inviting doesn't mean the invitation is for you.

4. Stop being a douche.

-Nam
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: One Above All on September 05, 2013, 04:52:51 PM
One Above All,

Nam,

Your smite is unwarranted.

I don't think it is. That's why I did it.

1. I never said, or implied, any or all guys are like me when it comes to sex. I was telling her that's the way I am. That's it.

Really? Let's take a look at your post...
And though, being a guy, I usually want to get into a girls pants on the first date, I actually wait a couple of weeks before I do.
Bold mine.
You see, to me, that implied (I'd go so far as to say "inferred") that all (or, at the very least, most) guys are like you. We're not.

<snip>

This is just pointless speculation and accusations based on nothing at all. I do not treat women or men I'm attracted to (psychologically and/or physically) poorly. I also see sex in a different light than you do.

Anyway, I won't reply to you anymore in this thread, so as not to derail it any further.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Nam on September 05, 2013, 05:07:00 PM
Guys think of sex all the time. That's true whether you wish to admit it or not. It's also true many of them have no real restraint, and that's what I'm referring. My comment wasn't to be taken literal since, though true about myself, it was a jest of reassurance that though many guys (or most for that matter) are takers rather than givers.

If you couldn't read the slight jest in my post, that's your problem not mine.

-Nam
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on September 05, 2013, 05:17:19 PM

Really? Let's take a look at your post...
And though, being a guy, I usually want to get into a girls pants on the first date, I actually wait a couple of weeks before I do.
Bold mine.


The being a guy thing went right over my head.  I didn't read it as anything other than being Nam and found no offense when reading the whole post.  I guess each of us gets our buttons pushed differently.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Quesi on September 05, 2013, 06:13:14 PM
Does anyone else here find it ironic that Dante has a tendency to smite women in this forum for naming sexism or discussing sexual assaults?  And that he did so again in this thread?

Nope.  No sexism in the atheist community.  All members of the atheist community are clearly above that sort of thing, and women who attempt to discuss the topic should be put in our place.   
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Hatter23 on September 05, 2013, 08:13:17 PM
I suppose I am touchy on the subject after getting in trouble for looking at women in high school....because I was unpopular.

Said women were doing thing that were primping for attention, I looked. I was deemed unacceptable and therefore reported to school authorities. If the men they wanted to look at them, no such action would have occured.

School authorities sided with the women. I was in trouble for having the audacity of looking, because the women attracted my eyeballs and not of the popular jock they were going for.



Peeping Tom or just staring? Because if the latter: what medieval high school you go to?

The latter. It was a Catholic School.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: wright on September 05, 2013, 11:24:38 PM
Nope.  No sexism in the atheist community.  All members of the atheist community are clearly above that sort of thing, and women who attempt to discuss the topic should be put in our place.   

The often disproportionate reaction to women asserting themselves (in the atheist / skeptic communities and elsewhere) is disheartening and disappointing. Myer and Watson's blogging (and that of others) on that topic have been an education for me on feminism, sexism and reactionary backlash.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Dante on September 06, 2013, 07:43:26 AM
Does anyone else here find it ironic that Dante has a tendency to smite women in this forum for naming sexism or discussing sexual assaults?  And that he did so again in this thread?

A tenedency, you say? Wanna prove it? You know, back up your assertion? I've dished a whole 2 smites in the past year, and 1, count 'em, 1 was to a female. In this thread.

Maybe it's just you.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on September 06, 2013, 08:52:04 AM
Does anyone else here find it ironic that Dante has a tendency to smite women in this forum for naming sexism or discussing sexual assaults?  And that he did so again in this thread?

A tenedency, you say? Wanna prove it? You know, back up your assertion? I've dished a whole 2 smites in the past year, and 1, count 'em, 1 was to a female. In this thread.

Maybe it's just you.

I'm afraid he's got you there, Quesi.  I guess it's just us.   :(  I guess we'd better take up knitting,   :-\
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: screwtape on September 06, 2013, 09:30:05 AM
Then, I can wholly imagine her preception being skewed. Thanks for the backstory, I was unaware. It's immature, to be sure, but methinks that's some of the baggage that unfortunately comes with fame. And she seems to have sought out that fame, regardless if it was within the "rational" community or not. It doesn't mean I condone it. Rather it means she should have seen it coming.

1. I think it is debatable as to whether she sought fame.  If someone has something to say or wants to be involved in something, I don't see that as seeking fame.  I don't see Dawkins as necessarily having sought fame.  He wrote a few books that were popular and fame came with that.  Maybe fame was his motive, but I don't know and I don't think it's fair to assume.  Same with Skepchick.  Maybe she wanted to be famous.  Maybe she wanted something else and it did not occur to her that a small degree of celebrity would be included.

2. I am not sure she should have seen that coming.  Do atheists who disagree with Dawk threaten to rape him?  If not, then that sort of makes her point. And even if she should have seen it coming, that does not make it easier to deal with.  I think I recall seeing another female atheist blogger who was more or less run off by misogynistic harassment.


"Guys, don't propostion me, under any circumstances." Is that really all she's saying?

I don't think that's what she said.

it still seems a mountain was made from the proverbial molehill.

I agree.  I think Dawk blew it out of proportion.  He could have disagreed without being a dick or just ignored the whole thing.  But he seems to have gone after her in a very public and personal way.  And why?  I dunno.

Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Dante on September 06, 2013, 10:07:58 AM
Then, I can wholly imagine her preception being skewed. Thanks for the backstory, I was unaware. It's immature, to be sure, but methinks that's some of the baggage that unfortunately comes with fame. And she seems to have sought out that fame, regardless if it was within the "rational" community or not. It doesn't mean I condone it. Rather it means she should have seen it coming.

1. I think it is debatable as to whether she sought fame.  If someone has something to say or wants to be involved in something, I don't see that as seeking fame.  I don't see Dawkins as necessarily having sought fame.  He wrote a few books that were popular and fame came with that.  Maybe fame was his motive, but I don't know and I don't think it's fair to assume.  Same with Skepchick.  Maybe she wanted to be famous.  Maybe she wanted something else and it did not occur to her that a small degree of celebrity would be included.

Perhaps. But most people that create blogs want others to read them, no? So there is some level of attention seeking at the very least. Not that there's anything at all wrong with that, with wanting to share your thoughts and feelings with the world.

2. I am not sure she should have seen that coming.  Do atheists who disagree with Dawk threaten to rape him?  If not, then that sort of makes her point. And even if she should have seen it coming, that does not make it easier to deal with.  I think I recall seeing another female atheist blogger who was more or less run off by misogynistic harassment.

Yeah, it's completely immature and idiotic to threaten anyone with physical and psychological harm for their thoughts, or for most any other reason. And I too am disappointed that rationalists/atheists/et al would resort to such tactics. It should be beneath us, as humans.


"Guys, don't propostion me, under any circumstances." Is that really all she's saying?

I don't think that's what she said.

Going by what Lori told me a few posts ago, I think you may be right.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Nam on September 06, 2013, 12:07:26 PM
I suppose I am touchy on the subject after getting in trouble for looking at women in high school....because I was unpopular.

Said women were doing thing that were primping for attention, I looked. I was deemed unacceptable and therefore reported to school authorities. If the men they wanted to look at them, no such action would have occured.

School authorities sided with the women. I was in trouble for having the audacity of looking, because the women attracted my eyeballs and not of the popular jock they were going for.



Peeping Tom or just staring? Because if the latter: what medieval high school you go to?

The latter. It was a Catholic School.

So sad for you and those like you. You would have loved my high school. Good times.

-Nam
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Hatter23 on September 06, 2013, 12:32:05 PM

The latter. It was a Catholic School.

So sad for you and those like you. You would have loved my high school. Good times.

-Nam

I still cannot fathom the reasoning behind taking all the women out of class to have a 90 minute lecture on sock length. I am not kidding. 90 minutes to say "Don't be a hussy and wear short socks" essentially.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: neopagan on September 06, 2013, 12:47:27 PM
^^^ well, that is in Leviticus, right? :)
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on September 06, 2013, 01:03:24 PM

The latter. It was a Catholic School.

So sad for you and those like you. You would have loved my high school. Good times.

-Nam

I still cannot fathom the reasoning behind taking all the women out of class to have a 90 minute lecture on sock length. I am not kidding. 90 minutes to say "Don't be a hussy and wear short socks" essentially.

Guys,  help me out here... are legs sooo much less sexy in long socks?
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Nam on September 06, 2013, 02:35:06 PM
Depends on who's wearing them.

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Hatter23 on September 06, 2013, 02:39:24 PM
Depends on who's wearing them.

;)

-Nam

And nobody looks that great in thigh high yellowish brown woolen socks.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Nam on September 06, 2013, 02:54:36 PM
Depends on who's wearing them.

;)

-Nam

And nobody looks that great in thigh high yellowish brown woolen socks.

What if that's all she's wearing?

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: One Above All on September 06, 2013, 02:55:58 PM
Guys,  help me out here... are legs sooo much less sexy in long socks?

They're just as sexy, if not more so.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: neopagan on September 06, 2013, 03:23:55 PM
Guys,  help me out here... are legs sooo much less sexy in long socks?

Only if I'm wearing heels...  ;)
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Hatter23 on September 06, 2013, 03:30:17 PM
Depends on who's wearing them.

;)

-Nam

And nobody looks that great in thigh high yellowish brown woolen socks.

What if that's all she's wearing?

;)

-Nam

Then, while the lecture on sock length is no longer needed, the school heirarchy might have a few other things to speak about.

Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Graybeard on September 06, 2013, 03:48:22 PM
I think that it is important to realise that Dawkins is a biologist and as such will have a fair idea about the mating rituals of the human species.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_Watson#Elevator_incident has details and the subsequent reaction.

I support Hatter23’s approach. Ms Watson should have been confident enough to see the incident for what it was. Nevertheless, she used the incident as an example of male chauvinism within the atheist movement[1] I can hardly believe that she, like Dawkins, has been so far unaware of universally common, male behaviour nor that, given her intellect, she genuinely felt assaulted.

Set against real female oppression, savagery, and ill-treatment, this equates with being stoned to death by popcorn.

I do not know much about Ms Watson, but I now feel confident that she has an acute sense of victimisation that she sees as beneficial to her career.
 1. how often have we heard at WWGHA that atheists are like people who don’t collect stamps. As such, it is not remarkable that one or two less than gifted would-be lovers make crass remarks – how this can equate with atheism, I am not sure. Are there no awkard moments in Christianity, Buddhism, vegetarianism, the Democrat party, etc?
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Hatter23 on September 06, 2013, 03:56:54 PM
I think that it is important to realise that Dawkins is a biologist and as such will have a fair idea about the mating rituals of the human species.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_Watson#Elevator_incident has details and the subsequent reaction.

I support Hatter23’s approach. Ms Watson should have been confident enough to see the incident for what it was. Nevertheless, she used the incident as an example of male chauvinism within the atheist movement[1] I can hardly believe that she, like Dawkins, has been so far unaware of universally common, male behaviour nor that, given her intellect, she genuinely felt assaulted.

Set against real female oppression, savagery, and ill-treatment, this equates with being stoned to death by popcorn.

I do not know much about Ms Watson, but I now feel confident that she has an acute sense of victimisation that she sees as beneficial to her career.
 1. how often have we heard at WWGHA that atheists are like people who don’t collect stamps. As such, it is not remarkable that one or two less than gifted would-be lovers make crass remarks – how this can equate with atheism, I am not sure. Are there no awkard moments in Christianity, Buddhism, vegetarianism, the Democrat party, etc?

Though given what her lecture was about, the man doing the hitting on her should have had a; "Hello, I'm Stupid" button pinned to his lapel in response.

Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on September 06, 2013, 05:16:32 PM
I can hardly believe that she, like Dawkins, has been so far unaware of universally common, male behaviour nor that, given her intellect, she genuinely felt assaulted

She never claimed to feel assaulted.  The comment in question wasn't even the main part of her video.  All she said in reference to the incident was "Guys, don't do that."  I think she was just weary.  Weary that men never seem to have any boundaries when it comes to behavior toward women.  I don't want to re-quote her entire video or her response to Dawkins' comment.  Maybe few men can understand a woman's point of view.  Why should we accept boorishness as universally common, male behavior?  Guys, please, just don't do that!
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: nogodsforme on September 06, 2013, 05:53:50 PM
One of the main issues here is that men who behave like douches can be exposed as such to the entire world, for the first time in human history.

In the past women just had to put up with their crap. We had to pretend to like it, go along and laugh like one of the boys, or give in and be considered doormats and sluts, or quietly disappear out of shame, or report it officially and take our chances with the powers that be (good luck with that). No matter what the woman did in response, once a man took notice of her in a way she did not want, she was the one in trouble.

For every man who is mistakenly accused of misbehavior and got into trouble for something he did not commit, I am willing to bet that there are at least ten women who faced mountains of crap and just took it. I am talking about stuff as extreme as serious abuse and rape as well as the far more subtle and innocuous unwanted touching and badly timed inappropriate propositions. I have been in and observed more than enough of these situations in my 50+ years of life to know what I am talking about.
 
Now women can at least write about it and let other people know, with relative safety, what happened to them.

It will take time for such men who have been getting away with this crap to realize that many women are not willing to take this sh!t quietly anymore. Now, they have to think about and even modify their behavior. It is not easy for them. Thus the insults and the backlash as power relations get re-evaluated.

I wish some of these men could--for just one week-- endure the looks, touches, and remarks that even an average looking female is expected to accept as normal, and then see if they ever again mention "victimization" when a woman finally gets fed up and complains. &)
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: wright on September 06, 2013, 06:31:19 PM
She never claimed to feel assaulted.  The comment in question wasn't even the main part of her video.  All she said in reference to the incident was "Guys, don't do that."  I think she was just weary.  Weary that men never seem to have any boundaries when it comes to behavior toward women.

That was what I got from reading through her references to the incident as well.

It will take time for such men who have been getting away with this crap to realize that many women are not willing to take this sh!t quietly anymore. Now, they have to think about and even modify their behavior. It is not easy for them. Thus the insults and the backlash as power relations get re-evaluated.

I think that's a pretty good summation. Just as many Christians in the US are unused to having their position of religious privilege challenged, there are many men (atheists and skeptics among them) unused to women asserting themselves and getting challenged on their inappropriate behavior. Indeed, there are many who have been ignorant that their behavior is inappropriate.

I like this recent bit by PZ Myers on changing attitudes, in the atheist community and elsewhere:http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/09/06/the-future-will-not-be-the-past/ (http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/09/06/the-future-will-not-be-the-past/)

I do not know much about Ms Watson, but I now feel confident that she has an acute sense of victimisation that she sees as beneficial to her career.

Graybeard, can you point to a specific statement by Watson that you think shows that "sense of victimization that she sees as beneficial to her career"?
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Quesi on September 07, 2013, 06:08:16 AM
Does anyone else here find it ironic that Dante has a tendency to smite women in this forum for naming sexism or discussing sexual assaults?  And that he did so again in this thread?

A tenedency, you say? Wanna prove it? You know, back up your assertion? I've dished a whole 2 smites in the past year, and 1, count 'em, 1 was to a female. In this thread.

Maybe it's just you.

You are right.  You smited me for a comment on sexual assault, and you smited Lorie for a comment on sexual assault.  Two smites does not indicate a trend.  So I withdraw my original statement.

But I really do have to point out that when women talk about sexual assault, or when we talk about sexual objectification, or when we talk about the marginalization of women in any context, or when we talk about institutionalized male privilege or any other set of issues related to the power structures that impact on male and female relationships, men have a variety of reactions. 

Some men listen.  Ask questions.  Attempt to understand.   Some men even respond as allies, acknowledging their own role and privilege in an unequal system.  I count many of the allies among my personal friends, and there are many here on this forum. 

But a lot of men respond differently.  They are dismissive.  Or mocking.  They attempt to discredit the woman.  They might rally their friends against her, and isolate her.   Belittle her.  Or they might resort to comparative suffering, and point out that there are other people in different situations whose plight is much worse.   Sometimes men, perhaps in an effort to identify, talk about their own suffering, and try to establish that the inequities are in fact non existent. 

And sometimes, men respond by turning the woman into a sexual conquest.  This was one of the topics that Rebecca Watson had spoken about on the panel that day.  And that evening, in the elevator, at 4 AM, this man went into predator mode.    He did exactly what she had criticized others for doing in her panel discussion that day. 

You tell me that isn’t creepy. 

Yeah.  She didn’t say that he tried to assault her.  But you know something?  When she was in that elevator alone with this man at 4 AM, the thought occurred to her.  You see, here is the thing.  Women think about sexual assault.  Not because we are silly or frivolous or because we hate men or because we don’t like sex or because we have nothing better to think about.  Women think about sexual assault because a huge percentage of women are victims of sexual assault.  If we have not been victims ourselves, we know women who have survived attacks.  One in four women reports being the victim of sexual assault or rape between the age of 14 and 22.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics  Many more of us have been stalked.   And although I’ve never seen a study on the topic, I’m pretty sure that 99% of us have had that moment in which we thought… oh no… this is it.  It is going to happen to me. 

She was afraid in that elevator.  Just like I was afraid in college when a smart, dorky guy used to lurk outside of parties and wait for me to come out.  I was even more afraid when he left a note on my windshield that said “I want to fuck you right now.”  The man never touched me.  Never hurt me.  But he took away my freedom.   I was afraid to walk alone at night after that.  Afraid to be alone in isolated parts of my dorm. 

And Rebecca will never feel the same way when she goes to a conference.  She will never feel as comfortable sitting in a hotel bar until 4 AM and sparring with conference attendees.  He took away a little bit of her freedom.  Not like those who engage in female genital mutilation take away freedom from the women they mutilate.   No.  Not like that Richard.  But as we transition towards a more equal standing among the sexes, it is perfectly appropriate to name and talk about the actions that men take that perpetuate the imbalance of power and freedom. 
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Dante on September 07, 2013, 08:51:22 AM
Does anyone else here find it ironic that Dante has a tendency to smite women in this forum for naming sexism or discussing sexual assaults?  And that he did so again in this thread?

A tenedency, you say? Wanna prove it? You know, back up your assertion? I've dished a whole 2 smites in the past year, and 1, count 'em, 1 was to a female. In this thread.

Maybe it's just you.

You are right.  You smited me for a comment on sexual assault, and you smited Lorie for a comment on sexual assault.  Two smites does not indicate a trend.  So I withdraw my original statement.

Thank you for that. It is appreciated. But, I didn't smite Lori for a comment on sexual assault. I smited her for being entirely too defensive to me personally, and not reading the entire thread.

Quote
But I really do have to point out that when women talk about sexual assault, or when we talk about sexual objectification, or when we talk about the marginalization of women in any context, or when we talk about institutionalized male privilege or any other set of issues related to the power structures that impact on male and female relationships, men have a variety of reactions. 

Some men listen.  Ask questions.  Attempt to understand.   Some men even respond as allies, acknowledging their own role and privilege in an unequal system.  I count many of the allies among my personal friends, and there are many here on this forum. 

But a lot of men respond differently.  They are dismissive.  Or mocking.  They attempt to discredit the woman.  They might rally their friends against her, and isolate her.   Belittle her.  Or they might resort to comparative suffering, and point out that there are other people in different situations whose plight is much worse.   Sometimes men, perhaps in an effort to identify, talk about their own suffering, and try to establish that the inequities are in fact non existent. 

And sometimes, men respond by turning the woman into a sexual conquest.  This was one of the topics that Rebecca Watson had spoken about on the panel that day.  And that evening, in the elevator, at 4 AM, this man went into predator mode.    He did exactly what she had criticized others for doing in her panel discussion that day. 

You tell me that isn’t creepy. 

Yeah.  She didn’t say that he tried to assault her.  But you know something?  When she was in that elevator alone with this man at 4 AM, the thought occurred to her.  You see, here is the thing.  Women think about sexual assault.  Not because we are silly or frivolous or because we hate men or because we don’t like sex or because we have nothing better to think about.  Women think about sexual assault because a huge percentage of women are victims of sexual assault.  If we have not been victims ourselves, we know women who have survived attacks.  One in four women reports being the victim of sexual assault or rape between the age of 14 and 22.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics  Many more of us have been stalked.   And although I’ve never seen a study on the topic, I’m pretty sure that 99% of us have had that moment in which we thought… oh no… this is it.  It is going to happen to me. 

She was afraid in that elevator.  Just like I was afraid in college when a smart, dorky guy used to lurk outside of parties and wait for me to come out.  I was even more afraid when he left a note on my windshield that said “I want to fuck you right now.”  The man never touched me.  Never hurt me.  But he took away my freedom.   I was afraid to walk alone at night after that.  Afraid to be alone in isolated parts of my dorm. 

And Rebecca will never feel the same way when she goes to a conference.  She will never feel as comfortable sitting in a hotel bar until 4 AM and sparring with conference attendees.  He took away a little bit of her freedom.  Not like those who engage in female genital mutilation take away freedom from the women they mutilate.   No.  Not like that Richard.  But as we transition towards a more equal standing among the sexes, it is perfectly appropriate to name and talk about the actions that men take that perpetuate the imbalance of power and freedom.

Good post.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: wright on September 07, 2013, 12:23:18 PM
Yeah.  She didn’t say that he tried to assault her.  But you know something?  When she was in that elevator alone with this man at 4 AM, the thought occurred to her.  You see, here is the thing.  Women think about sexual assault.  Not because we are silly or frivolous or because we hate men or because we don’t like sex or because we have nothing better to think about.  Women think about sexual assault because a huge percentage of women are victims of sexual assault.  If we have not been victims ourselves, we know women who have survived attacks.  One in four women reports being the victim of sexual assault or rape between the age of 14 and 22.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics  Many more of us have been stalked.   And although I’ve never seen a study on the topic, I’m pretty sure that 99% of us have had that moment in which we thought… oh no… this is it.  It is going to happen to me. 

She was afraid in that elevator.  Just like I was afraid in college when a smart, dorky guy used to lurk outside of parties and wait for me to come out.  I was even more afraid when he left a note on my windshield that said “I want to fuck you right now.”  The man never touched me.  Never hurt me.  But he took away my freedom.   I was afraid to walk alone at night after that.  Afraid to be alone in isolated parts of my dorm. 

I remember two particular incidents in college that made me aware of how differently women are compelled to act and think in certain situations. The first was when I casually said something to my sister about her meeting me at my dormitory after dark one night. We were both going to UCSC, a big campus where buildings are separated by hundreds of yards of forest, and we lived on opposite sides of the campus. She gently told me that was impossible, as she didn't have anyone to escort her along nearly a mile of winding, isolated, barely illuminated footpaths. I was stunned, both by that realization and recognizing my own privileged ignorance.

The other was when a college friend confided in me about a large, quiet guy who had been sitting at "our" (our immediate circle of friends and acquaintances) cafeteria table for a few days. I didn't know him (turned out no one else in the group did, either), but strangers often sat with us and unless they were blatantly rude, we welcomed them. This guy, my friend said, was stalking her: he seemed to always be where she was. In the hallway her dorm room was on, at our meals, near her classrooms, following her around campus. She said, trying to make it a joke, that she wasn't sure if he wanted to ask her out or rape her. She was literally shaking as she smiled and her voice almost broke.

Again, I was floored. She had also confided in some other friends, and we made sure she was escorted for awhile. One of the other women in the group may have had a word with campus security; I'm not sure. Her stalker gradually seemed to lose interest; I never heard of any further incident (which certainly doesn't mean nothing happened, just that I was out of the loop). But I was chilled by the similarities between his behavior and how I had acted in the past towards women I was attracted to. How being big, shy and struggling for the "right" words while intruding into a woman's personal space could be seen as having terrifying implications from the outside.

I was also angered by both those incidents, that these women that I knew and respected were having their freedom curtailed, their actions circumscribed by very real fears. It was a series of realizations that I've never forgotten.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Chronos on September 07, 2013, 10:06:51 PM
I have witnessed both sides of this issue. Some women take it over the top, and so do some men. When either does so publicly, it's not usually in the best of circumstances. It usually makes either look ... stupid.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: nogodsforme on September 08, 2013, 08:08:36 PM
Quesi and wright have described how what may seem to a male to be neutral or even positive attention is interpreted very differently by females. Whenever I am in an elevator or other isolated area alone with a man between the ages of 17-70, the possibility of assault crosses my mind. It is not out of a vacuum. I have had negative experiences with men in situations far less isolated and seemingly innocent.

On my way to college on a greyhound bus, I had a very nice conversation with my seat mate, an older distinguished gray-haired white gentleman with daughters my age. When the lights of the bus were turned out, he proceeded to sexually molest me.

At first I thought, as women do, that I was misinterpreting what was happening. Of course this nice man was not feeling on me on a crowded public bus. Then when it went on even after I shoved his hands away, I was too terrified and stunned to react for a while. As a young black woman, I knew that anything I did to that man would turn into a nasty he-said-she-said. The black men on the bus might want to beat him up.  What if he told everyone I had agreed to something, but did not get paid enough?

 I recovered my wits enough to shove him off me and change my seat to one next to an older lady. And I remember feeling guilty and sick about it for a very long time. Should I have reported him?  To whom? Should I have stuck him with a nail file? Punched him in the nose? If there had been the internet in those days, maybe I would have reported it there.

I am not sure what action a woman can take that would not be seen as "over the top" after the fact and in the light of day.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: wright on September 08, 2013, 09:57:51 PM
On my way to college on a greyhound bus, I had a very nice conversation with my seat mate, an older distinguished gray-haired white gentleman with daughters my age. When the lights of the bus were turned out, he proceeded to sexually molest me.

At first I thought, as women do, that I was misinterpreting what was happening. Of course this nice man was not feeling on me on a crowded public bus. Then when it went on even after I shoved his hands away, I was too terrified and stunned to react for a while. As a young black woman, I knew that anything I did to that man would turn into a nasty he-said-she-said. The black men on the bus might want to beat him up.  What if he told everyone I had agreed to something, but did not get paid enough?

 I recovered my wits enough to shove him off me and change my seat to one next to an older lady. And I remember feeling guilty and sick about it for a very long time. Should I have reported him?  To whom? Should I have stuck him with a nail file? Punched him in the nose? If there had been the internet in those days, maybe I would have reported it there.

I am not sure what action a woman can take that would not be seen as "over the top" after the fact and in the light of day.

That account made me literally nauseous. And I know, from reading and listening to such stories from women I  trust, that such behavior is widespread. Now that women are speaking up and no longer being silent- or tolerating being silenced- about it, the sheer amount of sexual violence towards women is becoming known.

A lot of men, including myself, are stunned by not only the scope of it, but by our own ignorance and assumed privilege.  I thought of myself- and still do- as progressive, egalitarian, not particularly prejudiced. And yet it's now clear I had this blind spot in which some very ugly things were happening. That may not have been entirely my fault, but I need to acknowledge it and illuminate it.

No disrespect Chronos, but I'm wary of terms like "over the top" applied to topics like sexual harassment. Seems too close to some Christians describing outspoken atheists as "militant". Save for some brave, vocal exceptions, women objecting to being assaulted and abused have been largely unheard. Now things are changing, and part of the backlash against the greater profile of this topic is labeling such speakers "shrill", "anti-male", "militant", "over-sensitive", etc.

I find Watson's writing on this topic informative, ultimately uplifting to the atheist / skeptic community as a whole. I don't see someone playing the victim card; I see a woman refusing to be silent or silenced on a topic important to both genders.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Hatter23 on September 09, 2013, 07:56:00 AM
I understand that I am a big bad male, but I'm going to put a different spin on it.

I have been shot at by a black person. Should I now treat all blacks as people who want to shoot me?

Because AFAIAC, that is THE SAME ARGUMENT, except it isn't the politically correct one.

Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: wright on September 09, 2013, 12:30:58 PM
I understand that I am a big bad male, but I'm going to put a different spin on it.

I have been shot at by a black person. Should I now treat all blacks as people who want to shoot me?

Because AFAIAC, that is THE SAME ARGUMENT, except it isn't the politically correct one.



If you have been shot at by a black person, then a reaction of fear or wariness when meeting another black person in similar circumstances would certainly be understandable. You still have the choice of how your actions are or are not influenced by that reaction.

I don't see Watson, or Quesi or the other women participating in this thread, arguing that all men are "big bad males". They're just pointing out that a lot of women have been abused by men and they want it to stop.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Hatter23 on September 09, 2013, 12:51:18 PM
I understand that I am a big bad male, but I'm going to put a different spin on it.

I have been shot at by a black person. Should I now treat all blacks as people who want to shoot me?

Because AFAIAC, that is THE SAME ARGUMENT, except it isn't the politically correct one.



If you have been shot at by a black person, then a reaction of fear or wariness when meeting another black person in similar circumstances would certainly be understandable. You still have the choice of how your actions are or are not influenced by that reaction.

I don't see Watson, or Quesi or the other women participating in this thread, arguing that all men are "big bad males". They're just pointing out that a lot of women have been abused by men and they want it to stop.
by "big bad male" I meant that when a male objects to the line of reasoning of "all males should be treated as potential sexual abusers, i.e. suspects because of their DNA" their arguments are immediately dismissed because of their gender.



Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: wright on September 09, 2013, 02:18:55 PM
by "big bad male" I meant that when a male objects to the line of reasoning of "all males should be treated as potential sexual abusers, i.e. suspects because of their DNA" their arguments are immediately dismissed because of their gender.

My bad, then. Apologies for the misunderstanding. And I don't doubt that such dismissals have been made; women are not magically immune to making sweeping generalizations. 

But AFAIK, Watson hasn't done so. And Dawkin's overreaction is disappointing and puzzling.

 
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: nogodsforme on September 09, 2013, 02:29:12 PM
Hatter, suppose you have a niece or daughter about 12 or 13. What would you tell her about what she can expect from men in public as she gets older? Do you tell her nothing, and let her think it is her fault that she gets sexual comments and more from men she does not know? A grown man in a park holding a baby asked me if I wanted to f--k him. I was a skinny, ugly 13 year old. The man scared me to death, because I had never been prepared for such a situation.

You wonder if there is something wrong with you-- why are you attracting this? Are you supposed to learn to like it?  You begin to think about how you dress, how you walk, what expression you have on your face. You hate anyone who seems to like the attention, and join in condemning the people who do end up attacked-- they were asking for it, right?

From the time we are little girls, we are taught that we cannot be as free to move about in the world as our brothers, because stuff--even if it is not clear what-- happens to girls that is less likely to happen to boys. And the way we are treated when we are out and about reinforces what we have been told. I have many other stories, some far worse than what happened to me on the bus. And I don't think I have been particularly unlucky. 

How different life would be for men, if any time they left their house, they could expect that gay men would randomly call out comments to them from passing cars, openly assess their body parts, rate them as a 2 or an 8, sometimes try to touch them, proposition them, make lewd gestures at them, and so forth.  Imagine how aggravating and exhausting that would be.

If you react negatively to any of this, you can be expected to be called even worse names or threatened with attack. Like the lady at the atheist convention. Sometimes the same sh!t comes from people you know, people you like and respect, so you don't know how to respond.  Kick him between the legs? Right. You have to keep on interacting with the neighbor, coworker or friend's father. It never even occurs to you to tell anyone.

And women have less recourse when stuff does happen because of the power relation thing. Most women don't do anything about it, even when assaulted-- some don't even tell anyone it happened. Amazingly, it does not make women hate men. After being assaulted by men, women continue to work beside them, befriend them, date them and marry them. Seriously, it is almost impossible for women to avoid men completely, even if they wanted to. So I don't get the "women over react and hate all men" crap.

What more is there to understanding the issue--it is a fact that women need to be wary of men. Men need to be wary of men as well. Men are the people most likely to do bad sh!t to other people. And being wary does not mean that women hate all men. We have been taught by experience and from accounts by other women to watch out. Any interaction with a stranger, friend, neighbor, boss or celebrity can turn sour.

The problem here is that if women are not wary of men, it is still the women who are blamed if something bad happens to them. Just like the lady at the atheist convention--she reports what happened and she is the one who gets the insults, the rape and death threats, not the guys involved. That is why most women don't tell. The accounts that get public attention are just the tip of a very ugly iceberg.

Now I have to teach my daughter how to deal with the comments and so forth she is beginning to get when she is out.  :( :-\
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Jag on September 27, 2013, 10:27:31 AM
True story: I was in my car stopped in a left turn lane behind an SUV sporting a "Marriage is between One Man and One Woman" bumper sticker. That's the limit of what I noticed in an absent-minded way about the vehicle. The light turned, and we both proceeded through the intersection with the SUV swinging wide to end up in the right hand lane as the turn was completed. I stayed in the left lane and glanced to the side at the driver, out of habit, simply ensuring the he was, in fact, bound for the far lane. Imagine my shock when the older gentleman driver made this gesture at me: index and middle finger spread wide and his tongue flicking back and forth between them while leering at me.

What I just sexually assaulted? I guess it depend on how you define assault. Technically, I was, but honestly, in my mind I was being threatened more than anything. My instant reaction was fear, but me being me, it was closely followed by fury. That arrogant f'ing cretin had just threatened to sexually assault me, simply because I was a woman driving on the same road as he was.

Is it okay for me to say, guys, don't do that?

It gets better. The same guy honked at me at the next light, which was red. I knew what was coming but was actually prepared for it this time - I looked at him again, to see him repeating the same gesture. I smiled sweetly and showed him the now-opened folding knife that was in my console by sheer coincidence and watch all the color drain our of his face, while his hand fell away from his mouth. As far as I could tell, he never even looked at me again, and I accelerated hard when the light turned green. I wanted as much distance as possible between me and him. Oh and this happened less than a mile from my house in my own neighborhood. Creepy in the extreme to think that this man may be one of my neighbors - we live in a community on the outskirts of the metro area, and the properties there are typically 3-5 acres and surrounded by tress - the privacy is a big part of the appeal but suddenly seemed a bit less appealing.

This is not an unusual occurrence, and I'm still furious about it, months after the fact. The man threatened my sense of safety, my sense of autonomy and my absent minded assumption that I could drive down a highway as a human being instead of an object to be treated as such. This isn't even the first time that specific thing has happened to me, but something in that encounter really hit me hard, and lingers to this day. I think it might be my "elevatorgate" - the single incident that proved to be my last straw on the matter, after a lifetime of equally upsetting incidents directed at me for not having a penis. This event, in isolation, is a relatively small matter, but enough on it's own to tip the whole history of similar events into "that's e-fricking-nough and I'm done being silent about this crap."

Yes, these things happen to women every day and this story isn't really any big deal AT ALL in the face of countless examples of much, much worse. I absolutely believe that most men do not behave this way (my BF was shocked to his core that ANYONE would do such a thing), and that the old fart in the SUV MEANT to scare me - how many women had he pulled that exact same stunt on who responded as expected? I'm pretty confident that he was shocked by my response but the unsettling thought that didn't occur to me for several hours is that this man lives in my neighborhood - and could find me again if he decided to do so.

This is the only place I have voiced that fear.

I carry that same knife with me everywhere now.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: nogodsforme on September 27, 2013, 03:53:12 PM
I hear you, Jag. I think most women have experienced enough events like that to fill a book.  What seems like a minor thing to the man doing it can mess up your whole day, week, month. You can't just forget about it. Plus you have to worry about seeing him again. Sh!t like that affects how we see the world. 

I saw the man who propositioned me in the park a few days later in a local department store. He saw me and grinned. I was so scared I had to leave my shopping and get out of the store.   A man might think that I over-reacted, like the woman in the elevator. After all, we were also in a public place and he never even touched me-- can't a man smile at a lady or ask her to join him for a cup of coffee anymore?

When stats show that women still don't earn as much as men, I wonder how much of that is due to women trying to avoid future harassment and assault, or reacting to something like that in the past. Trying to be safe and vigilant can affect what jobs we decide to take, whether we work late or on weekends, if we should go on that sales trip with the boss, what conference events we attend, which bus route to take, or if there is a safe place to park after driving to work.

Even with all that constant vigilance, if something bad happens, the woman still has to justify why she was where she was. People will speculate about what she had on, whether she was too friendly and "led him on". I have a friend who has a very talkative, outgoing and bubbly personality. She is constantly dealing with aggressive attention from men she doesn't know. She says it is exhausting and makes her try to tone herself down.

On the other hand, if a woman is just trying to go about her life, she can be blamed for being stuck up and not friendly enough. If I had a dollar for every time some slimeball intruded on my private thoughts with, "C'mon, baby, how about a smile for me, you sweet thing." I have gotten increasingly hostile reactions from men for not smiling back, chatting or seeming appreciative enough after an initial sexual remark.

Sometimes, it is a relief to be getting old. :P
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on September 30, 2013, 05:05:59 PM

Even with all that constant vigilance, if something bad happens, the woman still has to justify why she was where she was. People will speculate about what she had on, whether she was too friendly and "led him on". I have a friend who has a very talkative, outgoing and bubbly personality. She is constantly dealing with aggressive attention from men she doesn't know. She says it is exhausting and makes her try to tone herself down.
 

And even worse, we can be our own worst enemies.  How much negative attention does this woman above get from other women hating on her and jealous of the attention she gets from men?
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Quesi on September 30, 2013, 05:59:03 PM

And even worse, we can be our own worst enemies.  How much negative attention does this woman above get from other women hating on her and jealous of the attention she gets from men?

That is the saddest part of the story.

What was she doing there in that bar drinking at 4 AM?  What did she expect would happen?

No man would ever have to face those questions. 
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on September 30, 2013, 11:03:24 PM
https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/p480x480/1381708_697664296928481_1315622965_n.jpg
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: screwtape on October 01, 2013, 07:35:34 AM
That is the saddest part of the story.

What was she doing there in that bar drinking at 4 AM?  What did she expect would happen?

No man would ever have to face those questions.

Terrific point.  If some guy coming home from a bar at 3am on sunday morning were raped, would anyone question the way he was dressed?  Question what he was doing there?  Call him a slut and suggest he was asking for it?  Tell him he should have just laid back and enjoyed it?


Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: naemhni on October 01, 2013, 07:48:50 AM
If some guy coming home from a bar at 3am on sunday morning were raped, would anyone question the way he was dressed?  Question what he was doing there?  Call him a slut and suggest he was asking for it?  Tell him he should have just laid back and enjoyed it?

No.  Some would say he was gay, some would laugh at him, some would say he wasn't a real man because he wasn't able to fight off his attackers, some would sneer at him and say that now he "knows what it's like", etc etc.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Hatter23 on October 01, 2013, 07:57:23 AM

Terrific point.  If some guy coming home from a bar at 3am on sunday morning were raped, would anyone question the way he was dressed? 

Actually, yes. If he was crossdressing, or wearing revealing, tight clothes, or fetish attire....I would bet people would say 'he was asking for it.'





Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: screwtape on October 01, 2013, 08:17:53 AM
Actually, yes. If he was crossdressing, or wearing revealing, tight clothes, or fetish attire....I would bet people would say 'he was asking for it.'

I'm talking about just some regular guy wearing regular clothes.  I doubt that most women who are raped are walking around in fetish gear or clothing that is especially out of the ordinary.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: wright on October 02, 2013, 12:20:51 PM
From a link posted over at Pharyngula, about sexism online and in the music industry. The last paragraph is (to me) an eloquent reply to the accusation that women who speak out about this kind of shit are "whining" or cultivating "victimhood".
Quote
I am almost entirely sure that the comments underneath this article will be as varied as those underneath my original post. I am not a martyr, nor am I attempting to change the world in any revolutionary way. I am only in a band, not one of the many wonderful people in organisations striving for change. My involvement in this discussion is not motivated by a self-righteous or self-pitying urge. My hopes are that if anything good comes out of this, it will start a conversation, or continue the conversation which is already happening, encouraging others to reject an acceptance of the status quo, and that our band can continue to do what we are doing in our own way and on our own terms. For us, this has always been – and hopefully will always be – about the music, and that is what we will be getting back to now.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2013/sep/30/chvrches-lauren-mayberry-online-misogyny?commentpage=3 (http://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2013/sep/30/chvrches-lauren-mayberry-online-misogyny?commentpage=3)
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Graybeard on October 05, 2013, 08:35:43 AM
..the older gentleman driver made this gesture at me: index and middle finger spread wide and his tongue flicking back and forth between them while leering at me.
Has this man not immediately removed himself from the gene-pool? I see this in evolutionary terms: if the peacock tries to sing instead of displaying its feathers, its line is going to end pretty sharply.

We can all think of "the worst chat-up lines in the world." and that is why we don't use them - we know what would happen if we did. The unfortunate thing is that there must be some women who think his general behaviour (of which this is likely to be a very small part) is acceptable/funny/etc.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Jag on October 05, 2013, 10:13:54 AM
..the older gentleman driver made this gesture at me: index and middle finger spread wide and his tongue flicking back and forth between them while leering at me.
Has this man not immediately removed himself from the gene-pool? I see this in evolutionary terms: if the peacock tries to sing instead of displaying its feathers, its line is going to end pretty sharply.

We can all think of "the worst chat-up lines in the world." and that is why we don't use them - we know what would happen if we did. The unfortunate thing is that there must be some women who think his general behaviour (of which this is likely to be a very small part) is acceptable/funny/etc.

Perhaps, but I might be more inclined to see it that way if I thought it was an invitation, an opening gambit, an effort to break the ice. I don't. And I'm certainly not going to excuse it as a "very small part" of his "general behavior" - I think I'll just stick with seeing it as a "general indication of his disdain for women".

Thanks for man'splaining it to me though.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: neopagan on October 05, 2013, 10:51:22 AM
I wondered what the eff this lunatic hoped to accomplish by his behavior?  Did he think you would pull over and invite him back to your home for a tumble?  Did he hope to frighten you (obviously, but to what end - a quick giggle at your expense)?  Either way, it shows he is either delusional or a predator.  I feel sorry for his family, assuming he has one that can bear to be around him.

I was in a somewhat similar situation while in a foreign locale once, and it took me completely by surprise to be "sexually threatened" (by a male).  I could not imagine that being something in the back of my mind in every most interactions with men, like it must be for many women.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Azdgari on October 05, 2013, 11:06:04 AM
I understand that I am a big bad male, but I'm going to put a different spin on it.

I have been shot at by a black person. Should I now treat all blacks as people who want to shoot me?

Because AFAIAC, that is THE SAME ARGUMENT, except it isn't the politically correct one.

Can you identify something about someone being black that would make you far more likely to get shot by one than by someone who is not black?  Do a large % of people get shot by black men at some point in their lives?

If the answer to both of those questions is "yes", then the answer to your question above is also "yes".  As far as I know, the answer to both of those questions is "no", though.

Can you identify something about someone being a man that would make a woman far more likely to get raped by him than by someone who is not a man?  Do a large % of women get raped by men at some point in their lives?

If the answer to both of those questions is "yes", then women are likewise justified in feeling afraid.  And unlike in your analogy, the answer to these questions really is yes.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: neopagan on October 05, 2013, 11:27:11 AM
^^^
Quote
Do a large % of women get raped by men at some point in their lives?

If you meant, "Do a large % of the women who are raped get raped by men," then I agree
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Azdgari on October 05, 2013, 12:16:07 PM
No, I meant what I wrote.  You don't think the minimum of 5% of all women is a large %, given the subject matter?  How about the "nearly 20%" of women who'd been sexually attacked according to the CDC?  Not a high enough % to worry about yet, for you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender#Rape_of_females_by_males
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: neopagan on October 05, 2013, 12:47:50 PM
No, I meant what I wrote.  You don't think the minimum of 5% of all women is a large %, given the subject matter?  How about the "nearly 20%" of women who'd been sexually attacked according to the CDC?  Not a high enough % to worry about yet, for you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender#Rape_of_females_by_males

understood... see where you were going now
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on October 05, 2013, 04:03:28 PM

Can you identify something about someone being black that would make you far more likely to get shot by one than by someone who is not black?

No, all blacks do not have guns.
Quote
Can you identify something about someone being a man that would make a woman far more likely to get raped by him than by someone who is not a man? 

Most rapes are done with penises.  All men have penises.











Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Azdgari on October 05, 2013, 08:09:10 PM
^^ Indeed.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Nam on October 05, 2013, 09:07:55 PM
All men have penises.

John Boehner doesn't, and he's raping 800,000 people simultaneously.

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on October 05, 2013, 10:05:33 PM
^^What is sitting on top of his shoulders?
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: nogodsforme on October 06, 2013, 01:11:31 PM
^^^^Ohhhh, no she di'in't! And it's neon orange!
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: nogodsforme on October 06, 2013, 03:09:53 PM
If some guy coming home from a bar at 3am on sunday morning were raped, would anyone question the way he was dressed?  Question what he was doing there?  Call him a slut and suggest he was asking for it?  Tell him he should have just laid back and enjoyed it?

No.  Some would say he was gay, some would laugh at him, some would say he wasn't a real man because he wasn't able to fight off his attackers, some would sneer at him and say that now he "knows what it's like", etc etc.

Yes, a man who is attacked sexually will get even more ridicule and derision than a woman-- from the same people who say women are "asking for it". I was trying to think what the reason for this would be. I believe it is because a man who is attacked is put into the same category as a woman. See, if a man is raped, it had to be because he was not manly enough. He was too much like a woman, and you know what kind of treatment women get.

Whether he was assaulted in the military by another soldier, in jail by a fellow prisoner, on the street by a gang or by the truck driver who picked him up hitchhiking. He was gay, or dressed too flamboyantly, or was too-youthful looking, or did not fight hard enough. If he had been a real man, something like a cross between Rambo and the Terminator, he would never have been attacked.

The mentality there is that women should expect to be treated like pieces of meat, and men who somehow get put into the same category as women (even after the fact) can also expect that treatment. That is why some men are so terrified of gay rights, gays in the military, etc. These men are afraid of being treated by gay men the way they themselves treat women-- being ogled, propositioned, harassed, touched, leered at, even assaulted.
 
Some men dismiss the effects of this on women as trivial, what they deserve for behaving too assertively or being a slut or whatever.[1]But the fear and horror some men express at the idea of being on the receiving end (so to speak) of similar treatment is telling. "What if one of those fags looks at me in the shower! Ugh! I would feel violated!"

However, men don't grow up with the same kinds of restrictions that are supposed to protect them. So I think a man is especially shocked if he gets attacked. Women at some level, expect it to happen. And sadly, it sometimes does.

 1. People on this site are probably too young to remember Phyllis Schlafly dismissing sexual harassment in the workplace-- "A virtuous women would never have to worry about something like that."
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: One Above All on October 06, 2013, 03:31:04 PM
<snip>

Well said.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: nogodsforme on October 06, 2013, 06:31:06 PM
I started thinking about this thread again after reading about a cab driver in another country who raped his female passengers. I can hear the unsympathetic remarks about how girls and women nowadays go around dressed like whores and joining the army trying to do men's jobs, so what do they expect? And if the woman herself was not dressed like a whore, well, it's because other women dress like that and men just lose control and attack the next female they see.  (They remain in enough control to make sure to wait and attack the woman in a place where they won't get caught.... &))

<sarcasm alert>Stuff like this is bound to happen when women move around the world like they are human beings or something. It's like a natural disaster or being struck by lightning. Women are magnets and men are just mindless iron filings-- they can't help it, poor things. It is not really the responsibility of men to not attack women. It's up to women to behave in a way so they don't get bothered by men.[1] Women should never leave their homes unless accompanied by a male relative, like in Saudi Arabia. See, a virtuous woman would never be alone with a man she does not know, under any circumstances. Not even in a cab with the driver.

However, if a straight man even suspects that a gay man might be checking him out, the straight man has the right to beat the gay man to death.... :P
 1. I heard an Iranian woman in a hijab say exactly that on a video.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Willie on October 06, 2013, 08:36:42 PM
However, if a straight man even suspects that a gay man might be checking him out, the straight man has the right to beat the gay man to death.... :P

I've never quite understood that reaction. I've been hit on by gay men a couple of times, and although I don't swing that way, I never felt the slightest urge to beat anyone up for it.

Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 07, 2013, 03:46:30 AM
However, if a straight man even suspects that a gay man might be checking him out, the straight man has the right to beat the gay man to death.... :P

Wait...what?...
Does that mean men can hit ladies (or vice versa) if one checks the other out?
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Graybeard on October 07, 2013, 07:04:33 AM
In the UK and until recently[1], rape was the only serious crime that may (not "must") rely upon the personal opinion of two independent persons. Robbery requires there to be property taken but rape does not have a requirement for physical evidence[2](although it helps.)

For a conviction, there has to be "mens rea": the accused must have a genuine and substantiated belief that the action was wrong. The victim must, either never have given consent by word, deed or normal lack of action or at any time, before during or after, have withdrawn consent.[3]

From the Wiki link:

Quote
In a 2000 research article from the Home Office, in England and Wales, around 1 in 20 women (5%) said that they had been raped at some point in their life from the age of 16 beyond.[5]

In 2011, the US Centers for Disease Control found that "nearly 20% of all women" suffered rape or attempted rape sometime in their life. More than a third of the victims were raped before the age of 18.[6]

Many rapes by males against females are unreported because of "fear of reprisal from the assailant"[7] and because of "shame...and deep-seated cultural notions that the woman is somehow to blame". [8] Researchers from the University of Surrey estimate that approximately 1 in 7 rapes by males against females are reported.[9]

From "The Independent"  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/100000-assaults-1000-rapists-sentenced-shockingly-low-conviction-rates-revealed-8446058.html January 2013:
Quote
"100,000 assaults. 1,000 rapists sentenced. Shockingly low conviction rates revealed.

Taking these two statistics together, can we conclude that only one in a thousand accusations of rape is substantiated, so the "(5%) [who] said that they had been raped" reduces to 0.005%? Or is it a misconception of what rape is?

I think that we are dealing with a problem that we know exists but we have absolutely no idea of the figures. All that we have left is our emotions.

Perhaps we could compare rape to common assault and ask, "How many assaults are there, including unreported ones and how many of the reported cases end in a conviction?" but this is not the same. The essence of assault is no person is ever willingly and knowingly assaulted, whereas we know that most persons are willing to have sexual intercourse at some time. These circumstances then create a similar but not identical instance: Assume that you attend a college sports meeting and watch the high jump from a distance. You know the winner so you go over and, as his back is turned, you slap him heartily on it and say, "Well done!" The winner turns round and he is a complete stranger - you don't know him. Did you assault him? If it had been your friend, was there an implied consent to be slapped? - And if so, is that true even if the slap turned out harder than you intended? How much harder?

With assault, no victim thinks "Oh yes, it's OK if he hits me." and then, shortly before, during, or only after the blow, do they say, "I didn't want any of that! That was assault."

Added to this, there is the fact that (at least in the UK) if you were "of previously good character" and you assault (non-aggravated) someone, you'll probably be fined. In the same circumstances for rape, an immediate sentence of at least 5 years will ensue.

Cases of malicious false reporting of rape are not unknown and (IIRC) at least three women in the UK are serving time for this offence. I can't say that I have heard of a case of malicious false reporting of assault.

I was involved in gathering information of "unreported crime". In my case, it was (i) not a crime against the person and (ii) victimless and was therefore easier to assess as there was no "personal opinion" but, even then, the final figure was, of necessity, an approximation.

The lessons are:

1. Rape is easy to detect in some cases
2. The consequences of being raped and of being wrongly convicted for rape are equally serious
3. We have no idea of the number of rapes
4. The laws on rape are probably the best we are likely to have because, at the moment, two personal opinions rely upon the personal opinions of a jury.
5. Secure acceptance that education, support and protection are given in the case of "Many rapes by males against females are unreported because of "fear of reprisal from the assailant"[7] and because of "shame...and deep-seated cultural notions that the woman is somehow to blame."  is essential.
6. There are no easy answers that are both effective and just.

 1. More recently, there has been introduced racial hatred crimes in which, for conviciton, "somebody has to be offended" and that particular "somebody" need not be the victim, indeed, there need not be a victim at all and there need be no real evidence that the offence caused was real.
 2. I exclude murder where there is no body to be found, as these cases are very rare, require the highest standard of evidence and there is no personal opinion of the victim
 3. There was one case in which a girl had initially willingly consented but then, halfway through, decided that she did not like it, and told the man to stop but he did not.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Mrjason on October 07, 2013, 07:37:38 AM
^^^ There is also the problem of impared judgement caused by alcohol or drugs. There is a lot of case law surrounding the point in intoxication where consent becomes impossible.

I think this also contributes to the lack of reporting, where the victim questions whether or not they did infact consent to an act that they would not have ordinarilty consented to. i.e. A 1 night stand after a drinking binge.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Hatter23 on October 07, 2013, 07:58:34 AM
I understand that I am a big bad male, but I'm going to put a different spin on it.

I have been shot at by a black person. Should I now treat all blacks as people who want to shoot me?

Because AFAIAC, that is THE SAME ARGUMENT, except it isn't the politically correct one.

Can you identify something about someone being black that would make you far more likely to get shot by one than by someone who is not black? 

Statistics: Blacks are 12.6% of the Population and 53.0% of the shooters in firearm homicides when the perpetrator's race is known.


 AFAIAC, that is THE SAME ARGUMENT, except it isn't the politically correct one. You are treating me as a danger and guilty until proven innocent based on birth circumstance. End.



Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Azdgari on October 07, 2013, 10:29:38 AM
Can you identify something about someone being black that would make you far more likely to get shot by one than by someone who is not black? 

Statistics: Blacks are 12.6% of the Population and 53.0% of the shooters in firearm homicides when the perpetrator's race is known.

Jesus F. Christ, Hatter, are you being obtuse on purpose?  Answer the damned question or don't answer at all.  What about being black leads to that?  Causative factors, here.  Something physically about being black, not the statistics which might have any number of causes.

Now, can you think of something physically about being male that might make a man more likely than a woman, to rape a woman?  Think deeply here.  I know you can do it.

AFAIAC, that is THE SAME ARGUMENT, except it isn't the politically correct one. You are treating me as a danger and guilty until proven innocent based on birth circumstance physical reality of personal attributes. End.

Yup.  Wilfully obtuse.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 07, 2013, 10:32:19 AM
Here in Australia, there is the a stereotype that Aboriginals steal bikes.

I thought it was a funny joke, but obviously just exaggerating things.

Then an aboriginal stole my bike... :|
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Hatter23 on October 07, 2013, 01:50:54 PM
Yup.  Wilfully obtuse.

NO. NOT WILFULLY OBTUSE. WILLFULLY REFUSING TO ACCEPT BEING TREATED AS UNDER SUSPICION BASED ON MY GENDER AS A GOOD AND ACCEPTABLE THING.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Azdgari on October 07, 2013, 02:41:56 PM
This is not about you, Hatter.  It's not about me.  We need to get over ourselves and put peoples' freedom and safety above our own egos.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Nam on October 07, 2013, 02:55:30 PM
Let go of my ego.

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: nogodsforme on October 07, 2013, 03:53:13 PM
Yup.  Wilfully obtuse.

NO. NOT WILFULLY OBTUSE. WILLFULLY REFUSING TO ACCEPT BEING TREATED AS UNDER SUSPICION BASED ON MY GENDER AS A GOOD AND ACCEPTABLE THING.

Hatter, I don't think that women want to treat all men with suspicion. Nor do we see the way we have to behave around men as a "good and acceptable thing". It is not women who create the environment where many of us feel that we are under siege a lot of the time. The problem is, when we let our guard down and behave as if men are fine and trustworthy fellows, too often men violate that trust.

You did not respond to my question of what you would tell an adolescent female friend or relative about what to expect when she begins to attract male attention. If my experience is representative, she will begin to get graphic sexual suggestions, evaluative comments and so forth, long before she is emotionally equipped to cope with the situation. Just as she is beginning to understand what it means to be a woman,  she has to also learn how to discuss sexual matters with male strangers in public. Some of these men will try to touch her or try to get her into their cars. And she will be faced with these situations at random moments, pretty much for the rest of her life. If she eventually becomes suspicious or afraid of men as a result of this, it is her own fault, right?

I am assuming from your comments, that you are a white person and have had a bad experience with a black person shooting a gun at you. (I am sorry that happened and hope that you were not hurt.)

If you want to compare the experience of women with racial gun violence, you would have to have not only been shot at by a black person, but have had black people frequently aim guns at you and pretend to fire them, had black people talk to you often about how they would like to shoot you, had black people in business and social events show their guns to you and discuss how much they like shooting white people, overheard black people brag about shooting white people, been warned by your parents about how much black people will try to shoot you, had black customers and black fellow workers tell you that it would be fun to shoot you.

In college a black professor once got you alone in his office and discussed shooting you. A black celebrity-- who you once admired-- suggested shooting you while signing an autograph. A black politician at a fundraising barbecue got drunk and tried to shoot you. Black therapists, dentists and doctors have been known to shoot at their white patients.

In the the military, there is an epidemic of black soldiers shooting at white soldiers in their own units, leading to special hearings.  There are lots of popular shows and videos where black people shoot at white people and the white people seem to like it. There are popular songs about black people shooting white people, who again, seem to like it. And you have had friends and family who have also had all the other experiences above at the hands of black people.

If this is your reality, then you have a valid comparison. I would imagine that you would be more than a bit wary of black people, and might have gotten the idea, somehow,  that some of them might sometimes want to shoot you. Then, of course, you are expected to make friends with black people, work alongside them and interact with them as if you don't think they want to shoot you. And if you do someday get shot by a black person, you will be blamed for not taking adequate steps to behave appropriately at all times so perfectly normal black people won't want to shoot you...

Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: screwtape on October 07, 2013, 04:53:04 PM
You did not respond to my question of what you would tell an adolescent female friend or relative about what to expect when she begins to attract male attention.

When Natasha Lyonne was in Slums of Beverly Hills, she wore prosthetic boobs.  At first, she loved them.  Walked around with her shoulders back, proud as hell.  The director said, she didn't get it.  Wear them off set for a couple days.  She said that brought all kinds of unwanted attention, and started walking with her shoulders forward, kinda hunched over, trying to hide them.  She got it.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120831/trivia
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Mrjason on October 08, 2013, 04:32:13 AM
nogodsforme, you need to add the fact that gun toting black people make up 50% of the population to give a truly valid comparison.

Good points though.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on October 08, 2013, 08:54:45 AM
nogodsforme, you need to add the fact that gun toting black people make up 50% of the population to give a truly valid comparison.

Good points though.

And, if you want to procreate you have to find a decent and suitable black person...
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Nam on October 08, 2013, 09:58:27 AM
nogodsforme, you need to add the fact that gun toting black people make up 50% of the population to give a truly valid comparison.

Good points though.

And, if you want to procreate you have to find a decent and suitable black person...

Heathcliff!

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: jaimehlers on October 08, 2013, 12:13:46 PM
Hatter, I don't think that women want to treat all men with suspicion. Nor do we see the way we have to behave around men as a "good and acceptable thing". It is not women who create the environment where many of us feel that we are under siege a lot of the time. The problem is, when we let our guard down and behave as if men are fine and trustworthy fellows, too often men violate that trust.
I once got accused by a coworker of threatening conduct because of an umbrella once.  Think one of those umbrellas that's about three feet long.  I was trying to navigate through a door and almost hit her with it, apologized, then said it was almost like a sword and maybe made a little swish with it (I barely remembered the event - some of that is based on me reconstructing things in my memory, so it's not necessarily reliable).  She took that to HR.  As a result, I was instructed to simply avoid her from then on, because the HR manager (also a woman) knew me well enough to know that there was not even a slight threat involved.  She also said that she had known people who would have done such a thing and meant it.

The problem is that the environment where men are automatically considered threatening gets propagated by the actions of both men and women.  It's one of those vicious cycles that builds on itself at this point, and it has been for a long time.  If we want to change that, we have to break the cycle somehow.  Honestly, teaching women self-defense (and I mean real self-defense, as in, something like aiki) seems to me to be one of the better ways to do it.  It isn't just the physical defense aspect that I'm talking about, either.

Because, honestly, a lot of women are vulnerable to assault by men.  And they know it.  I can't imagine that does a lot for their confidence, or their willingness to trust men.  But a martial art like aiki is built around disabling and restraining an opponent - usually a stronger and larger opponent.  The whole martial art is designed around people in an inferior position being able to overcome people in a superior one - the basis is someone who was disarmed having to defend themselves against an opponent with a razor-sharp sword, and turning the tables on them.

Not only that, but the knowledge that you can defend yourself against an attacker does wonders for one's confidence and maturity.  I mean, a number of the techniques used in aiki can seriously hurt or kill someone.  That's why a lot of it is not just teaching someone how to fight, but why they shouldn't fight.

As far as dealing with strangers making sexual comments, I don't really have any experience with that, but I imagine confidence plays a part there too.  People try to find weaknesses, buttons to push, and some of them will push really hard if they find any.  Anyone who's been bullied knows this.  The way to defeat such is with confidence - but it's not easy to acquire, especially if you're under constant siege - or even if you just feel like you're under constant siege.  In truth, the vast majority of people simply ignored me and the fact that I was getting bullied - it contributed to the oppressive atmosphere even though they weren't really doing anything.  And it's difficult to build confidence if it feels like everyone is against you, just waiting to tear it down.
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: nogodsforme on October 08, 2013, 02:26:40 PM
^^^^True dat. Mental and physical self defense are important skills for everyone. But in order to deal with the sexual harassment aspects, girls would have to start learning these techniques at about age ten.  :P

I got my daughter into martial arts when she was 6 and now, ten years later, she is testing for her full black belt. Nobody looking at her would think she loves MMA-style fighting, grappling and sparring. [1]I can't protect her from the feeling of being under siege, but I know that she can kick the a$$ of anyone who dares to lay a hand on her. I hope that someday some a$$hole tries to make a move on her at a conference in an elevator at night. This will be the result.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OJqPJRjHkE
 1. Unlike me, she is a girly girl, into hair, clothes, shoes and makeup. She loves the boys in One Direction (where did I go wrong?)
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
Post by: Marvin on June 01, 2015, 05:17:44 AM
And Rebecca will never feel the same way when she goes to a conference.  She will never feel as comfortable sitting in a hotel bar until 4 AM and sparring with conference attendees.  He took away a little bit of her freedom.  Not like those who engage in female genital mutilation take away freedom from the women they mutilate.   No.  Not like that Richard.  But as we transition towards a more equal standing among the sexes, it is perfectly appropriate to name and talk about the actions that men take that perpetuate the imbalance of power and freedom.

Just dropping this in here.

http://skepchick.org/2014/12/why-im-okay-with-doxing/