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Main Discussion Zone => General Religious Discussion => Topic started by: epidemic on September 05, 2013, 08:24:52 AM

Title: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: epidemic on September 05, 2013, 08:24:52 AM
Personally I feel morality is a completely natural process.  It is a byproduct of our animal nature.

Morality is neither devine in nature nor is it uniform across cultures.  Each group of people has its own moral code.

IMO Morality is mostly based on the collective good over selfish interests.  It is a group of codes imposed by the collective.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Hatter23 on September 05, 2013, 08:31:23 AM
Personally I feel morality is a completely natural process.  It is a byproduct of our animal nature.

Morality is neither devine in nature nor is it uniform across cultures.  Each group of people has its own moral code.

IMO Morality is mostly based on the collective good over selfish interests.  It is a group of codes imposed by the collective.

If morality was imposed from a One True God, it wouldn't vary so widely from culture to culture.

Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Aaron123 on September 05, 2013, 10:44:54 AM
If morality was imposed from a One True God, it wouldn't vary so widely from culture to culture.

Morality shouldn't vary so much from denominations to denominations, let alone culture to culture.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: epidemic on September 05, 2013, 11:56:17 AM
Ok,

Come on theists, help me out here:)
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: neopagan on September 05, 2013, 12:11:05 PM
since biblegod does horrendous things... no way
Anyone who kills their kid for me (behind my back) and expects me to aspire to their version of morality gets nothing from me but scorn.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: epidemic on September 05, 2013, 12:30:00 PM
Oh I am a wimp.  If I met god today I would probably knuckle under to him just as I would to a dictator.  I am not gonna stand on my high horse with hell hanging in the balance.  But that is just me (and about all of humanity)

We know that the vast majority of people will yield to authority even if it goes against their grain, otherwise there would be no such thing as a Hitler, Pol Pot, Sadam...   
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: neopagan on September 05, 2013, 01:22:26 PM
But... all those dictators were real.  We have some proof of what they did. 

I have no high horse, but I do draw the line at imaginary things (gods) and made up places (like hell).  Besides, if this god character turns out to be real, he/she/it/they probably would not be impressed by my faking belief in him/her/it/them on some variant of Pascal's wager.

Besides, why be afraid of god (YHWH) and not zeus, mithras, etc.?  They could all be as nasty to you as biblegod for not knuckling under to them, if you go that route.  It ends up getting confusing...
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on September 05, 2013, 01:55:21 PM
A god that allegedly used to show up 3,000 years ago, a kid that was supposedly here, briefly, 2,000 years ago, and both only for the benefit of a tiny backwater group of desert dwellers, cannot take credit for, or hope to usefully influence, people in 2013.

Moral standards have been expressed by cultures for ages. Granted, they differ from group to group, though axioms like the golden rule tend to get expressed across societies. It is apparent from studying other primates that we have some built in moral standards, plus some built in double standards as well. So we combine the cross-pollination of cultures, our genes, common sense, maybe a little Anthony Weiner-type public shame and as many examples of approved standards as we can muster, and we humans are sort of able to be fairly moral on our own. Yes, there are exceptions, but in a world where free will isn't free, power isn't nice and selfishness wins too much, we aren't doing all that bad.

There is always room for improvement. And most of us are moral enough to realize that.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: 12 Monkeys on September 05, 2013, 06:15:07 PM
My nation had no knowledge of a Biblegod or his "moral code" till the mid 1700's...His followers showed their morality by killing us by the thousands with small pox infected blankets and stealing our territories and plundering any valuable resource.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Schizoid on September 05, 2013, 09:01:05 PM
Personally I feel morality is a completely natural process.  It is a byproduct of our animal nature.

Morality is neither devine in nature nor is it uniform across cultures.  Each group of people has its own moral code.

IMO Morality is mostly based on the collective good over selfish interests.  It is a group of codes imposed by the collective.

I work with a man who is almost young enough to be my son who is my supervisor and is also a devout evangelical Christian.  We have some good talks about religion and we both respect each others point of view and don't try and change one another.  I think that a thing about me which fascinates him is that although I'm an atheist I am one of the most moral persons he knows and that sort of threw his former preconceived notions for a loop because he once would have thought I would have horns and live an immoral life.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: neopagan on September 05, 2013, 09:28:02 PM
^^^ Maybe you could tell him you are shocked he doesn't kill homosexuals and sabbath breakers (assuming he doesn't)  :)
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: bertatberts on September 06, 2013, 01:33:08 AM
They are nearly all Sabbath breakers.[1]

 1. I cant say for sure that some don't rest and worship on the Sabbath(Saturday)
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Mrjason on September 06, 2013, 03:53:12 AM
Religion is an extension of morality not the other way around.

As the OP says, morality has developed as a survival trait. Humans tend to work better in communities and communities tend to work better when regulated by codes of behaviour.
 
Religion seems to have developed as an uber stick to go with the developmental carrot.
Back in the bronze age telling folks that they were being watched 24/7 by an invisible man and any infringement of the "rules" would be punishable by said invisible man would have been a go(o)d motivator to keep the community in check.

Morality[1] has evolved once again with laws and CCTV taking over the mantle from religion.

edit: I feel compelled to name check screwtape here as this oppinion has been formed from conversations i've had with him.
 1. or more properly the method of the enforcement of morality
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Anfauglir on September 06, 2013, 04:18:21 AM
Is morality proof of god?  Nope.  Given that most moralities would denounce many of Yahweh's actions as savage and immoral if they were carried out by any other being, I have to say no - how could it?  How and why could a god instil a morality that it itself does not uphold?
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: epidemic on September 06, 2013, 07:11:30 AM
Personally I feel morality is a completely natural process.  It is a byproduct of our animal nature.

Morality is neither devine in nature nor is it uniform across cultures.  Each group of people has its own moral code.

IMO Morality is mostly based on the collective good over selfish interests.  It is a group of codes imposed by the collective.

I work with a man who is almost young enough to be my son who is my supervisor and is also a devout evangelical Christian.  We have some good talks about religion and we both respect each others point of view and don't try and change one another.  I think that a thing about me which fascinates him is that although I'm an atheist I am one of the most moral persons he knows and that sort of threw his former preconceived notions for a loop because he once would have thought I would have horns and live an immoral life.

I have a coworker who is a real thumper, we have known eachother for years and our battle lines are pretty much drawn:)  But one funny thing is that I have become his moral compass.  He frequently brings his more questionable business dealings and such to me and asks my opinion.  From digital piracy, to car dealing he always seems to fall on the wrong side of the bible before asking what I would do:)
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: bertatberts on September 06, 2013, 07:57:45 AM
What did you do to give him that impression! You said youv'e known each other a number of years, so he must think you're morally inept, because you are.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: William on September 06, 2013, 08:51:41 AM
Surely for morality to be proof of God there would have to be a bunch of morals that don't make sense to atheists?  Morals that atheists would be incapable of understanding or deriving just by thinking  :angel: :angel:

Wait ... vicarious redemption, hating family, not finding my neighbours wife attractive, sacrificing children, executing gays  .... oh bugger! :o :o
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: screwtape on September 06, 2013, 09:37:38 AM
... we both respect each others point of view..

Why do you respect his point of view?  Or do you not?  Do you actually just respect him?

Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: epidemic on September 06, 2013, 10:13:54 AM
What did you do to give him that impression! You said youv'e known each other a number of years, so he must think you're morally inept, because you are.

Because when discussing several topics he found be to have the moral high ground.  Probably to his surprise.  Ultimately he feels it is gods hand that guides me to the moral choices even though I am very dubious of gods very existence.  But since I have convinced him on several subjects that he was not exactly following the teachings of god he now bounces things off me for my POV
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 06, 2013, 05:45:18 PM
More like the proof of the immorality of the God depicted in the bible proves that that God definitely does not exist as he has the morals of Satan.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: bertatberts on September 07, 2013, 05:34:23 AM
What did you do to give him that impression! You said you've known each other a number of years, so he must think you're morally inept, because you are.

Because when discussing several topics he found be to have the moral high ground.  Probably to his surprise.  Ultimately he feels it is gods hand that guides me to the moral choices even though I am very dubious of gods very existence.  But since I have convinced him on several subjects that he was not exactly following the teachings of god he now bounces things off me for my POV
Post #14 did not read that way to me, hence my question.
So as I understand it, he believes as he should, if you're an atheist, that you are his moral superior.

You made it sound in post #14 that he came to you with is immoral ideas for your ok.
So I'm sorry if I misunderstood.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Add Homonym on September 08, 2013, 09:35:32 AM
If morality was imposed from a One True God, it wouldn't vary so widely from culture to culture.

Morality shouldn't vary so much from denominations to denominations, let alone culture to culture.

I don't think it does vary all that much. You can't argue that morality naturally extends from evolution and the human condition, and then say it varies widely. This conflicting argument results because atheists react in a contrarian way, to Christian statements:

Incorrect argument

Christian : The presence of God is shown in humans, because morality is cross cultural
Atheist: Morality varies widely, therefore you are wrong.
Christian: Oh, you are a moral relativist. Are you saying that eating babies is a good thing?
Atheist: Some cultures eat babies.

(this argument quickly loses focus)

Correct argument

Christian : The presence of God is shown in humans, because morality is cross cultural
Atheist: Your argument is circular. You assume that because there is a cross cultural similarity, that the only explanation is God.
Christian : What other explanation could there be, for the transmission of this information between cultures that have not communicated?
Atheist : It is up to you to demonstrate that there is no explanation besides God, before you announce that God did it.
Christian: Being a pig ignorant, and brainwashed idiot, I can see no other explanation besides the one I want it to be.
Atheist: Thanks for conceding that you are a brainwashed idiot.

Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Schizoid on September 08, 2013, 01:31:49 PM
... we both respect each others point of view..

Why do you respect his point of view?  Or do you not?  Do you actually just respect him?

I meant that we respect each others right to choose to believe how each of us believes.  He disagrees with my atheistic point of view as I do with his religious point of view, but we agree to disagree without feeling the need to convert the other to our point of view.  This actually says a lot about him considering that he is an evangelical and he simply accepts that my choice is to be an atheist.

Yes, I also do respect him aside from the religious aspect.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: bertatberts on September 08, 2013, 03:24:36 PM
I have never come across an atheist, who has ever tried to convert anybody, they all know that it is up to the theist to come to his senses.
No amount of prodding or pulling will make him change his mind he is the only person that can do that.
Atheists merely answer the questions posed by theist in a logical coherent way, there is no attempt to convert.
If the theist feels that his beliefs are foolish after reading a reply from an atheist then he will convert himself.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Schizoid on September 08, 2013, 10:56:41 PM
I have never come across an atheist, who has ever tried to convert anybody, they all know that it is up to the theist to come to his senses.
No amount of prodding or pulling will make him change his mind he is the only person that can do that.
Atheists merely answer the questions posed by theist in a logical coherent way, there is no attempt to convert.
If the theist feels that his beliefs are foolish after reading a reply from an atheist then he will convert himself.

Now we're getting caught up with the meaning of "convert".  I am sure there have been many atheists who have attempted to convince a theist that the atheist's point of view concerning religion is correct.  The atheist may not be trying to "convert" the theist but it comes down to the same thing.

Obviously someone can only change their own mind whether it's religion or politics.  In politics they could save a lot of money on political ads if they accepted they cannot change anyone's mind, that people can only change their own minds, that it is up to them to come to their senses.

Evidently this whole concept of atheists not trying to convert anyone is deceptively deep for me and beyond my comprehension or you just have not run across enough atheists to have an accurate sample.  Their numbers may be small, but I bet they exist even if I have run across any of them (in real life, not on the internet, I don't think I've come across anyone who has claimed to me to be an atheist--to be honest, as a schizoid I just don't care--people can believe whatever they like as long as they don't impose their beliefs on me).
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: bertatberts on September 09, 2013, 03:55:15 AM
I have never come across an atheist, who has ever tried to convert anybody, they all know that it is up to the theist to come to his senses.
No amount of prodding or pulling will make him change his mind he is the only person that can do that.
Atheists merely answer the questions posed by theist in a logical coherent way, there is no attempt to convert.
If the theist feels that his beliefs are foolish after reading a reply from an atheist then he will convert himself.

Now we're getting caught up with the meaning of "convert".  I am sure there have been many atheists who have attempted to convince a theist that the atheist's point of view concerning religion is correct.  The atheist may not be trying to "convert" the theist but it comes down to the same thing.
No atheist tries to persuade someone to change their religious faith or other belief with the intention of converting them. So no it doesn't come down to the same thing.
But on the converse it is in religious doctrines to try to persuade people to convert to their way of thinking. All the atheist wants is for people to live and let live, without imposing there beliefs on others.  The only thing atheists have in common is there lack of belief in gods.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 09, 2013, 08:05:10 AM
If atheists do not try to correct the thinking of believers, then they are not moral atheists.

A moral atheist will have a sense of community consciousness and will not let the community follow poor or wrong ideas that inevitably will hurt people.

Imagine the hellish world we would be living in if no one ever bothered to correct those who were in need of it.

  It is my view that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are moral religionists as well as those who do not believe. They all hurt their parent religions and everyone else who has a belief or not. They make us all into laughing stocks and should rethink their position. There is a Godhead but not the God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution. Beliefs in fantasy, miracles and magic are evil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HKHaClUCw4&feature=PlayList&p=5123864A5243470E&index=0&playnext=1

They also do much harm to their own.

African witches and Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXriVI&feature=related

Jesus Camp 1of 9
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=48b_1185215493

Death to Gays.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMw2Zg_BVzw&feature=related

For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing.
Fight them when you can. It is your duty to our fellow man.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: bertatberts on September 09, 2013, 08:52:52 AM
If atheists do not try to correct the thinking of believers, then they are not moral atheists.

A moral atheist will have a sense of community consciousness and will not let the community follow poor or wrong ideas that inevitably will hurt people.
I never said that they did not try to correct the thinking of the theist, I said they don't do it with the intention to convert them.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 09, 2013, 09:32:54 AM
If atheists do not try to correct the thinking of believers, then they are not moral atheists.

A moral atheist will have a sense of community consciousness and will not let the community follow poor or wrong ideas that inevitably will hurt people.
I never said that they did not try to correct the thinking of the theist, I said they don't do it with the intention to convert them.

Semantics.
Correction that is accepted produces a new line of thought. That is converting away from the old way of thought.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: bertatberts on September 09, 2013, 10:13:11 AM
It isn't done with the intention to persuade, it is done with the intention of educating. Huge difference, lookup the actual meaning of the word "Convert."  No semantics here.

Education isn't persuasion, it's giving you the info to make your own mind up.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: jaimehlers on September 09, 2013, 10:25:53 AM
bertaberts, education is a form of persuasion.  Or are you suggesting that teachers aren't working to convince their students that the information they give is correct?  That they let students make up their own minds as to whether that information is correct?

No.  Teachers do have to use persuasion in order to be effective teachers.  The kind of teacher who simply put information down in front of their students and said, "here, now make up your own mind", would not be doing their job effectively.  Among other things, a teacher has to persuade their students that they're knowledgeable about the subject they're teaching, that they're worth listening to, and that the information is actually correct.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 09, 2013, 10:26:58 AM
It isn't done with the intention to persuade, it is done with the intention of educating. Huge difference, lookup the actual meaning of the word "Convert."  No semantics here.

Education isn't persuasion, it's giving you the info to make your own mind up.

Semantics again. It causes self-persuasion.

Knowing more than on language may give me a larger window semantic wise. I do not get as specific as some but this language you and I are arguing is definitely close and I am not going to argue semantics with you.

I am French and if will not argue English definitions.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 09, 2013, 10:28:12 AM
bertaberts, education is a form of persuasion.  Or are you suggesting that teachers aren't working to convince their students that the information they give is correct?  That they let students make up their own minds as to whether that information is correct?

No.  Teachers do have to use persuasion in order to be effective teachers.  The kind of teacher who simply put information down in front of their students and said, "here, now make up your own mind", would not be doing their job effectively.  Among other things, a teacher has to persuade their students that they're knowledgeable about the subject they're teaching, that they're worth listening to, and that the information is actually correct.

+  1

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: bertatberts on September 09, 2013, 11:10:15 AM
bertaberts, education is a form of persuasion.  Or are you suggesting that teachers aren't working to convince their students that the information they give is correct?  That they let students make up their own minds as to whether that information is correct?

No.  Teachers do have to use persuasion in order to be effective teachers.  The kind of teacher who simply put information down in front of their students and said, "here, now make up your own mind", would not be doing their job effectively.  Among other things, a teacher has to persuade their students that they're knowledgeable about the subject they're teaching, that they're worth listening to, and that the information is actually correct.
Seriously!  A good teacher, gives you the tools to use to make up your own mind. A good teacher does not indoctrinate or inculcate it's pupils, that is the way of the religious.
However is it also the way it is done in America. If you want sheep you enforce your opinion.
If you want people you teach.
You do understand what the word teach means don't you, it doesn't mean persuade, indoctrinate, inculcate, it means to impart knowledge to or instruct a person as to how to do something, and it's up to them to decide whether to use that information. There is no hint of persuasion in meaning of the word.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: bertatberts on September 09, 2013, 11:18:02 AM
It isn't done with the intention to persuade, it is done with the intention of educating. Huge difference, lookup the actual meaning of the word "Convert."  No semantics here.

Education isn't persuasion, it's giving you the info to make your own mind up.

Semantics again. It causes self-persuasion.
If So, then it is self conversion also, which is what I said in the first place.

Quote from: Greatest I am
Knowing more than on language may give me a larger window semantic wise. I do not get as specific as some but this language you and I are arguing is definitely close and I am not going to argue semantics with you.
Yes it probably means something entirely different where you come from. I'm using the Oxford English Dictionary. 

Oh by the way I speak Spanish, Greek, and a little Italian.
Try not to be so cocky!
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 09, 2013, 11:34:42 AM
It isn't done with the intention to persuade, it is done with the intention of educating. Huge difference, lookup the actual meaning of the word "Convert."  No semantics here.

Education isn't persuasion, it's giving you the info to make your own mind up.

Semantics again. It causes self-persuasion.
If So, then it is self conversion also, which is what I said in the first place.

Quote from: Greatest I am
Knowing more than on language may give me a larger window semantic wise. I do not get as specific as some but this language you and I are arguing is definitely close and I am not going to argue semantics with you.
Yes it probably means something entirely different where you come from. I'm using the Oxford English Dictionary. 

Oh by the way I speak Spanish, Greek, and a little Italian.
Try not to be so cocky!

I can't help it. Being able to screw up in three languages and having few arguments on semantics  or the way I use language make me that way


"Semantics again. It causes self-persuasion.[/quote]If So, then it is self conversion also, which is what I said in the first place."


Self-conversion based on information given by someone else means that that person is the cause of the conversion as they supplied the information used.

Give credit where credit is due.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: jaimehlers on September 09, 2013, 12:19:22 PM
Seriously!  A good teacher, gives you the tools to use to make up your own mind. A good teacher does not indoctrinate or inculcate it's pupils, that is the way of the religious.
And where do you get this idea that persuasion is only indoctrination or inculcation?  For that matter, I wouldn't define either of those as persuasion to begin with - those are more akin to coercion than anything.  A good teacher doesn't simply put information before their students and hope they will make up their own minds.  They persuade the student to understand that what they're trying to teach is important, valuable, and useful, among other things, and they generally try to help the student come to the correct answers - not just so the student can pass the class, but so that they also have access to the information later on rather than dismissing it as useless trivia.

Quote from: bertatberts
However is it also the way it is done in America. If you want sheep you enforce your opinion.
If you want people you teach.
Granted.  But you can persuade someone without trying to force your opinion on them.  Surely you understand that much, at least.

Quote from: bertatberts
You do understand what the word teach means don't you, it doesn't mean persuade, indoctrinate, inculcate, it means to impart knowledge to or instruct a person as to how to do something, and it's up to them to decide whether to use that information. There is no hint of persuasion in meaning of the word.
I understand it a lot better than you do, apparently, since you seem to think that persuasion, indoctrination, and inculcation are analogous.  In order to impart knowledge to someone, you have to persuade them to listen and to respect what you say.  You also have to persuade them that the subject is useful to them, or at least will be useful.  No doubt there are other things you have to persuade them of as well.  One of the problems with the public school system is that primary and secondary school teachers don't attempt to persuade their students of anything - they simply present it as something to be learned so that the student can pass their course and move on.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Schizoid on September 09, 2013, 01:35:52 PM
I have never come across an atheist, who has ever tried to convert anybody, they all know that it is up to the theist to come to his senses.
No amount of prodding or pulling will make him change his mind he is the only person that can do that.
Atheists merely answer the questions posed by theist in a logical coherent way, there is no attempt to convert.
If the theist feels that his beliefs are foolish after reading a reply from an atheist then he will convert himself.

Now we're getting caught up with the meaning of "convert".  I am sure there have been many atheists who have attempted to convince a theist that the atheist's point of view concerning religion is correct.  The atheist may not be trying to "convert" the theist but it comes down to the same thing.
No atheist tries to persuade someone to change their religious faith or other belief with the intention of converting them. So no it doesn't come down to the same thing.
But on the converse it is in religious doctrines to try to persuade people to convert to their way of thinking. All the atheist wants is for people to live and let live, without imposing there beliefs on others.  The only thing atheists have in common is there lack of belief in gods.


First you say, "I have never come across an atheist, who has ever tried to convert anybody..." and then you say, "No atheist tries to persuade someone to change their religious faith or other belief..."  So which is it?  The atheists you have come across or "no" atheist because "no atheist" means "none, not one"?

My guess is that you don't know all atheists.  I would also guess that there are more than a few atheists who delight in trying to prove to a theist  that their beliefs are stupid and foolish in the hope that the theist will see the error of their ways and come around to the truth.  The theist in the same way tries to convince the atheist that to not believe in god is foolish in the hopes that the nonbeliever will become a believer.

Obviously nobody can change the mind of someone else, but all of advertising and much of religion and politics is about convincing someone to change to mind to agree with the intended point of view.

Atheists are just people, people who do not believe in any god.  That certainly does not mean that they are all noble and pure and only desire to live and let live, at least not on this planet or in this dimension.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: bertatberts on September 09, 2013, 03:11:12 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am
Self-conversion based on information given by someone else means that that person is the cause of the conversion as they supplied the information used.
No wrong, the person who supplied the information is not culpable, It is up to you to decide whether to use that information. 

Quote from: jaimehlers
And where do you get this idea that persuasion is only indoctrination or inculcation?  For that matter, I wouldn't define either of those as persuasion to begin with
They are synonyms. To indoctrinate is teach with an objective a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically. To inculcate is to instil with an objective an idea, attitude, or habit by persistent instruction. To persuade is to cause with an objective someone to believe something, especially after a sustained effort I.E to convince.
Quote from: jaimehlers
those are more akin to coercion than anything.
Coercion is persuasion though force or fear.
Quote from: jaimehlers
   A good teacher doesn't simply put information before their students and hope they will make up their own minds.  They persuade the student to understand that what they're trying to teach is important, valuable, and useful, among other things, and they generally try to help the student come to the correct answers - not just so the student can pass the class, but so that they also have access to the information later on rather than dismissing it as useless trivia.
Not the teachers I had. Even my parents when they imparted knowledge only ever gave me the information to act on. I was never enforced with anybody else opinion.
Quote from: jaimehlers
Granted.  But you can persuade someone without trying to force your opinion on them.  Surely you understand that much, at least.
I can agree that someone can impart information to you without enforcing their opinion on you, but I would not call that persuasion. When a teacher impart information he usually does that for a basis of evidence, he has no need to persuade when the evidence is there, he only would need to persuade if he had no evidence to back himself up.
 
Quote from: Schizoid
First you say, "I have never come across an atheist, who has ever tried to convert anybody..." and then you say, "No atheist tries to persuade someone to change their religious faith or other belief..."  So which is it?
I don't understand! They both mean the same thing.  I.E the atheist is not trying to convert thus is not trying to persuade. 

Example: if a religious person said they didn't believe in evolution, I would lead them to a source of information and leave them to make up there own mind.  It is up to them to either accept or reject the evidence, if they think reasonably they will accept it.

In England schools are multi cultural, teachers here are not allowed to enforce the views, they are only allowed to impart the evidential knowledge base they have, then those children[1] decide whether to accept that knowledge.
 1.  ((and there families) because of faith based school and the like)
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: jaimehlers on September 09, 2013, 04:23:35 PM
They are synonyms. To indoctrinate is teach with an objective a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically. To inculcate is to instil with an objective an idea, attitude, or habit by persistent instruction. To persuade is to cause with an objective someone to believe something, especially after a sustained effort I.E to convince.
No, actually, indoctrinate and inculcate are not synonyms of persuade (at least according to Merriam-Webster's online dictionary).  Indoctrinate is a synonym of both educate and teach; inculcate isn't a synonym of either persuade or indoctrinate.  The point is that they are different words with different meanings, rather than different words with the same meaning (synonyms).

Quote from: bertatberts
Coercion is persuasion though force or fear.
I know what coercion means.

Quote from: bertatberts
Not the teachers I had. Even my parents when they imparted knowledge only ever gave me the information to act on. I was never enforced with anybody else opinion.
Persuasion is about someone convincing you that something is worth adopting.  Naturally, it is possible to use force or fear to 'persuade' (coerce) someone.  It is also possible to persuade them through sound, logical arguments.  I hope you are not seriously going to claim that there is no difference between persuading someone through sound, logical arguments and persuading someone through force or fear.

Quote from: bertatberts
I can agree that someone can impart information to you without enforcing their opinion on you, but I would not call that persuasion. When a teacher impart information he usually does that for a basis of evidence, he has no need to persuade when the evidence is there, he only would need to persuade if he had no evidence to back himself up.
Except that persuasion isn't necessarily about someone 'enforcing' (forcing) something on you.  There's a reason we describe that as coercion rather than persuasion.  It seems to me that you're working from a rather narrow set of definitions here; you might want to think about that before you continue with this line of argument.

Let me put it to you another way.  In this argument, I am trying to convince you of something.  Yet I am not trying to convert you (in the sense you mean), or otherwise trying to force my position on you.  I am making statements that I believe are accurate and advancing arguments to support them.  In other words, I am trying to impart information to you, with the intention of convincing you of something.  Thus, one way to persuade someone is to present them with information that supports a position.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: bertatberts on September 09, 2013, 04:55:50 PM
Quote from: jaimehlers
In this argument, I am trying to convince you of something.  Yet I am not trying to convert you (in the sense you mean), or otherwise trying to force my position on you.
Yet you are trying to convert me to your way of thinking. Note the bolded.
Quote from: jaimehlers
I am making statements that I believe are accurate and advancing arguments to support them.
Exactly you believe, whereas I don't, my knowledge base tells me different. However I'm not trying to persuade nor convince you to accept my knowledge base, you either do or you don't it is your prerogative.
Quote from: jaimehlers
In other words, I am trying to impart information to you, with the intention of convincing you of something.
Yes you are trying to enforce your opinion without evidence to back it up. 
Quote from: jaimehlers
Thus, one way to persuade someone is to present them with information that supports a position.
Had you done that I would have no other recourse than to accept it as fact.   
Oh by the way I'm not arguing, for my position as I'm not trying to persuade you,  I'm disagreeing with your opinion, and expressing my own for you to take or leave.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: jaimehlers on September 09, 2013, 05:50:12 PM
Yet you are trying to convert me to your way of thinking. Note the bolded.
This is incorrect.  Convincing someone is not the same as converting them.

Quote from: bertatberts
Exactly you believe, whereas I don't, my knowledge base tells me different. However I'm not trying to persuade nor convince you to accept my knowledge base, you either do or you don't it is your prerogative.
This is a strawman argument based on pure semantics.  It is nothing more than an attempt (and not a very good one) by you to make my argument seem like an attempt at conversion based on 'belief'.  I did not think I would have to be so pedantic about my phrasing, but you have demonstrated that it is necessary.  So, in order to thoroughly demolish your strawman, let me rephrase:  I am making statements that my knowledge and experience tells me are correct, and presenting them to you in a persuasive manner.

Quote from: bertatberts
Yes you are trying to enforce your opinion without evidence to back it up.
Incorrect.  I am not trying to 'enforce' anything.  Indeed, this claim comes very close to an outright lie, since I have no means to force you to accept anything I say.  As for your claim that I have no evidence, this is solely based on your strawman just before.  I have evidence based on my own knowledge and experience.

Quote from: bertatberts
Had you done that I would have no other recourse than to accept it as fact.
Given your opinionated nature (which you've demonstrated on several occasions), I sincerely doubt this.  On top of that, the way you define terms is suspect, such as declaring that by trying to convince you, I am actually trying to convert you, not to mention your strawman of attempting to insinuate that my use of the word belief means I have no evidence to support it.  The verb believe simply means that one accepts something as true or genuine, to have a firm conviction about something, and to hold an opinion about something.  By itself, it has nothing to do with evidence or lack thereof.

Quote from: bertatberts
Oh by the way I'm not arguing, for my position as I'm not trying to persuade you,  I'm disagreeing with your opinion, and expressing my own for you to take or leave.
Yep, you're disagreeing with my opinion and presenting your own to counter it.  That's what's called arguing - to give reasons for or against something, to contend or disagree with words, and to persuade by giving reasons.  By the mere act of giving reasons to support your position and to disagree with mine, you are attempting to persuade me of something, in this case that persuasion is the same thing as conversion, coercion, and indoctrination.

Incidentally, that is provably not true.  Not just by dictionary definitions; persuasion is a general term that just refers to the act of trying to convince someone of something.  Conversion, coercion, and indoctrination can all be considered as specialized forms of persuasion (which does not mean that persuasion in general has those meanings); conversion has religious connotations, coercion refers to using force or fear, and indoctrination refers to teaching someone to accept something without question.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: 12 Monkeys on September 10, 2013, 07:47:22 PM
How can you prove something real that has no concrete evidence......the Bible is flawed and therefore not concrete.

 We have photo's,video's,cast footprints,hair samples and there is still people out there who are convinced Sasquatch is not real. The evidence brought forward for Sasquatch's existence far outweighs that of evidence for Jesus and God,still people think Sasquatch is a myth.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 11, 2013, 07:13:35 AM
How can you prove something real that has no concrete evidence......the Bible is flawed and therefore not concrete.

 We have photo's,video's,cast footprints,hair samples and there is still people out there who are convinced Sasquatch is not real. The evidence brought forward for Sasquatch's existence far outweighs that of evidence for Jesus and God,still people think Sasquatch is a myth.

It is true that the book has flaws and that bible God likely does not exist but we can still analyse what is written from a moral POV and give our verdict as to what is written while ignoring the reality that God does not exist.

We can also pull the morals out of Mother Goose while knowing it is a fairy tale.

Who is it that said something like, men of intelligence can discuss things they do not believe in.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: epidemic on September 11, 2013, 07:35:56 AM
How can you prove something real that has no concrete evidence......the Bible is flawed and therefore not concrete.

 We have photo's,video's,cast footprints,hair samples and there is still people out there who are convinced Sasquatch is not real. The evidence brought forward for Sasquatch's existence far outweighs that of evidence for Jesus and God,still people think Sasquatch is a myth.

It is true that the book has flaws and that bible God likely does not exist but we can still analyse what is written from a moral POV and give our verdict as to what is written while ignoring the reality that God does not exist.

We can also pull the morals out of Mother Goose while knowing it is a fairy tale.

Who is it that said something like, men of intelligence can discuss things they do not believe in.

Regards
DL


with the bible being the springboard for where faith starts how can you not believe the bible and simultaniously still have faith in a god?  The bible is the source of our knowledge of god, we learn his rules, the moral code we should follow, all from it.  If someone seriously believes the bible is not devine in nature, what does one base the source of their belief in god.

You may say your source for religious inspiration is not ultimately the bible, but absent the bible, where did you get your inspiration?  Your mom told you about god, your friend told you about god, and somewhere along the line someone actually finds the source of that information being the pages of the bible. 

The bible itself, specifically the old testament seems rooted in heathen traditions and  mysticism going back to when peoples used observation and imagination to explain away the unknown. 

If the bible did not exist do you feel your belief would be anything like it is? 

If you want proof of this look at any tribe of africans untouched by christianity,  Their religions look nothing like it.  The book as practiced by the people around you formed your beliefs, even if you don't follow it to the letter the book is the source.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: William on September 11, 2013, 09:42:40 AM
If the bible did not exist do you feel your belief would be anything like it is? 

I can't speak for GIa, but in my case I was brought up in a Christian (Catholic) household, which still has subtle influences over me, and in a Christian dominated society that has considerable control over me.  The cultural, political, and legal systems I live in are definitely not free of Christian influence.

I've been deeply affected by 'morals' in the Bible - and it has taken great effort to shake some of them off.  I was homophobic till my early twenties, and generally quite prudish on most sexual matters right into my forties.  I even thought divorce was somehow morally wrong  :o 

It has taken a couple of decades to identify, examine, and jettison most of the garbage put in my brain by Christianity - and I'm quite sure I'm not done yet  :)  This forum keeps shining the spotlight on dark little corners of my thinking, and I'm regularly surprised about what I find to clean out through that process  :police:
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 11, 2013, 10:15:33 AM
How can you prove something real that has no concrete evidence......the Bible is flawed and therefore not concrete.

 We have photo's,video's,cast footprints,hair samples and there is still people out there who are convinced Sasquatch is not real. The evidence brought forward for Sasquatch's existence far outweighs that of evidence for Jesus and God,still people think Sasquatch is a myth.

It is true that the book has flaws and that bible God likely does not exist but we can still analyse what is written from a moral POV and give our verdict as to what is written while ignoring the reality that God does not exist.

We can also pull the morals out of Mother Goose while knowing it is a fairy tale.

Who is it that said something like, men of intelligence can discuss things they do not believe in.

Regards
DL


with the bible being the springboard for where faith starts how can you not believe the bible and simultaniously still have faith in a god?  The bible is the source of our knowledge of god, we learn his rules, the moral code we should follow, all from it.  If someone seriously believes the bible is not devine in nature, what does one base the source of their belief in god.

You may say your source for religious inspiration is not ultimately the bible, but absent the bible, where did you get your inspiration?  Your mom told you about god, your friend told you about god, and somewhere along the line someone actually finds the source of that information being the pages of the bible. 

The bible itself, specifically the old testament seems rooted in heathen traditions and  mysticism going back to when peoples used observation and imagination to explain away the unknown. 

If the bible did not exist do you feel your belief would be anything like it is? 

If you want proof of this look at any tribe of africans untouched by christianity,  Their religions look nothing like it.  The book as practiced by the people around you formed your beliefs, even if you don't follow it to the letter the book is the source.

The bible is just a plagiarized consolidation of older traditions. Almost nothing in it is original to Christianity.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x84m5k_2007doc-zone-pagan-christ-1-of-3_news

Most of the world professes to have faith and only a % of those are Christians. The rest have faith but no bible so to say the bible is required for faith is quite foolish an inaccurate.

Faith without facts is for fools.

“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”

“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”
Martin Luther “

It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.
Jonathan Swift

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: epidemic on September 11, 2013, 10:37:42 AM
The bible is just a plagiarized consolidation of older traditions. Almost nothing in it is original to Christianity.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x84m5k_2007doc-zone-pagan-christ-1-of-3_news

Most of the world professes to have faith and only a % of those are Christians. The rest have faith but no bible so to say the bible is required for faith is quite foolish an inaccurate.

Faith without facts is for fools.

“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”

“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”
Martin Luther “

It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.
Jonathan Swift

Regards
DL


Ok what is your root source for god and his rules?  if it is a person or group what is their source.


let me put it to you this way,  if you were to take a blank slate,  a person who is somehow raised with no reference to religion either in the affirmative or the negative.   Do you believe they would have faith in a god anything akin to yours?  I usually use the babies on an island analogy.  If you placed babies on an island and somehow they survived to adulthood and became a thriving community,  what religion would they be?

My theory is they would invent a rain god, and a lightning god, a god of war, and a place we go after death slowly over the millenia they would refine those gods.  I am not saying you would not have faith with out the bible,  I am saying you would absolutely have a diffent faith absent the bible. 

the bible is ingrained in our culture,  it is part of your religion whether you like it or not.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 11, 2013, 11:23:37 AM
Quote
The bible is just a plagiarized consolidation of older traditions. Almost nothing in it is original to Christianity.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x84m5k_2007doc-zone-pagan-christ-1-of-3_news

Most of the world professes to have faith and only a % of those are Christians. The rest have faith but no bible so to say the bible is required for faith is quite foolish an inaccurate.

Faith without facts is for fools.

“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”

“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”
Martin Luther “

It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.
Jonathan Swift

Regards
DL


Ok what is your root source for god and his rules?  if it is a person or group what is their source.

My own standards. Like Jesus says, we must write the laws of God on our hearts.

They look something like this and you will note that they are centered on others while the bibles laws are self-centered, God centered, and inferior.

http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/


Quote
let me put it to you this way,  if you were to take a blank slate,  a person who is somehow raised with no reference to religion either in the affirmative or the negative.   Do you believe they would have faith in a god anything akin to yours?  I usually use the babies on an island analogy.  If you placed babies on an island and somehow they survived to adulthood and became a thriving community,  what religion would they be?

Babies are born knowing by instinct that in an evolving world it is better for survival to cooperate. That is self-centered and much like an immature Christianity and it's God.

As they grow, something the Christian God never does, they gravitate to harm/care of the greater good of the tribe or community.

Quote
My theory is they would invent a rain god, and a lightning god, a god of war, and a place we go after death slowly over the millenia they would refine those gods.  I am not saying you would not have faith with out the bible,  I am saying you would absolutely have a diffent faith absent the bible. 

the bible is ingrained in our culture,  it is part of your religion wheter you like it or not.

To a small point. Sure. Everything we know has an impact.

The good thing about the bible is that people learn what not to do as they recognize that it is selling a genocidal son murdering prick of a God whose policies should be reversed.

I think you need to look past whatever you are looking at.

Listen. Learn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV2VjdpVonY

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: epidemic on September 11, 2013, 12:32:51 PM
greatist I am,

I believe I have made a fundamental mistake here.  I thought you were one of the people who believed in god and did not believe the bible was correct.  All my arguments are predicated on this mistake.

So just for clarification,  you are an atheist?
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 11, 2013, 12:47:15 PM
greatist I am,

I believe I have made a fundamental mistake here.  I thought you were one of the people who believed in god and did not believe the bible was correct.  All my arguments are predicated on this mistake.

So just for clarification,  you are an atheist?

No but I have many friends that are and have accepted that I cannot be one.
No average is about 95% acceptance and 5% who reject me as delusional.

Lend me your ear.

The Godhead I know in a nutshell.
I was a skeptic till the age of 39.
I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself an esoteric ecumenist and Gnostic Christian. Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake.

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of O T God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheep where Gnostic Christians are goats.
This is perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. He does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have tribal mentalities and poor morals.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to discard whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

-------------------

Just so you know my more exact reason for being in religious forums.

It is my view that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are moral religionists as well as those who do not believe. They all hurt their parent religions and everyone else who has a belief or not. They make us all into laughing stocks and should rethink their position. There is a Godhead but not the God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution. Beliefs in fantasy, miracles and magic are evil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HKHaClUCw4&feature=PlayList&p=5123864A5243470E&index=0&playnext=1

They also do much harm to their own.

African witches and Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXriVI&feature=related

Jesus Camp 1of 9
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=48b_1185215493

Death to Gays.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMw2Zg_BVzw&feature=related

For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing.
Fight them when you can. It is your duty to our fellow man.

If anything, I am more militant than militant atheists and I am always after atheist to do more.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: jaimehlers on September 11, 2013, 12:58:53 PM
Sounds much like you're saying that there's ultimately no difference between the universe and God, Greatest I am.  I don't mean that in a literal sense, though.  More like, it simply exists, rather than being a being who does things.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: 12 Monkeys on September 11, 2013, 01:45:38 PM
As far as moral man("good men") doing nothing to stop evil....is it because they don't actually believe in an afterlife,God or his premise of heaven? 

  The desire to stay alive because of the unknown existence that God and the afterlife are actually real,I would think stop most (not all) "good men" from sacrificing themselves to stop evil. Then again could they not just pray to God to stop "his plan"?

 God seems powerless to stop evil,theists claim it is because Satan is "God of the earth" at this moment. God seems either not all-powerful or he cares not for his loyal subjects. How else can you explain God ignoring the helpless at the hands of greed-pigs that exploit their brothers and sisters for profit?
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 11, 2013, 02:18:02 PM
Sounds much like you're saying that there's ultimately no difference between the universe and God, Greatest I am.  I don't mean that in a literal sense, though.  More like, it simply exists, rather than being a being who does things.

I do not like to call the cosmic consciousness God but yes, it just exists just as you and I do.

It is the next evolutionary step for all of us.

Again. I do not expect anyone to believe this on just hearsay. You will disappoint me if you do.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Nam on September 11, 2013, 02:23:51 PM
The next step in evolution is to believe in god, say huh?

-Nam
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 11, 2013, 02:33:08 PM
As far as moral man("good men") doing nothing to stop evil....is it because they don't actually believe in an afterlife,God or his premise of heaven? 

  The desire to stay alive because of the unknown existence that God and the afterlife are actually real,I would think stop most (not all) "good men" from sacrificing themselves to stop evil. Then again could they not just pray to God to stop "his plan"?

 God seems powerless to stop evil,theists claim it is because Satan is "God of the earth" at this moment. God seems either not all-powerful or he cares not for his loyal subjects. How else can you explain God ignoring the helpless at the hands of greed-pigs that exploit their brothers and sisters for profit?

Not believing in the Gods on offer and thinking of all of them as myth, except for the cosmic consciousness who is basically powerless in terms of breaching the laws of physics and nature,  --- all I could give would be speculative nonsense about those Gods.

As to why good men do nothing and let evil grow, most would not if it was close at hand. Unfortunately, much of it is not.

Take the 10 million children under 10 years old who starve or die of preventable causes yearly.

If we could somehow play with logistics and have them pop up in cities in the developed world, there is no way that we would tolerate their deaths. Because they are not close and we cannot do something in a direct way, we ignore them.

This does not mean that we are not charitable. We are and we give plenty. Just not quite enough and by giving indirectly, much of what is given is lost to corruption in the various systems.

It is the same situation with most of the evils that we recognize.

To my way of thinking, and many do not like it, we need a world government with strong local representation.

It is about another 30 years away.

Regards
DL
 
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 11, 2013, 02:36:59 PM
The next step in evolution is to believe in god, say huh?

-Nam

No. It is to put the Abrahamic God in the place he has rightfully earned. Hell.

Then we, as the ancient scribes knew would happen, we will elect ourselves a new God.

He will be a man just as all the Gods with real power in history have been.

Regards
DL
 
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Nam on September 11, 2013, 02:54:25 PM
Sounds like complete nonsense.

-Nam
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: 12 Monkeys on September 11, 2013, 07:37:12 PM
GIA in my above post I was saying good men...like your cosmic entity could care less about the 5000 children who die every hour of every day 365 days a year.....unlike your "cosmic God" men are all about self preservation....mainly because they don't buy the concept of a heaven or a God.

 Now,what is this cosmic God doing to prevent these deaths?.......SWEET FUCK ALL. Yet the believers who praise him,don't obey him or uphold his instructions to care for the meek,why? Why do these same believer's who won't sacrifice anything to help the meek give God a pass? The believer always has an excuse for why his/her god under performs,no matter what god or belief system.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: 12 Monkeys on September 11, 2013, 07:42:31 PM
there is also a way to feed the hungry all over the world. Logistics don't get in the way. Greed and desire for my survival over your's or theirs(generally) is what stops the food to getting to source.

 And who is this "we" you are talking about....you may not see it but kids here are malnourished. In some areas of the states people are working more than 3 part time jobs a week to keep from starving.

BTW why are the children being born into a time and place where they starve? The religious dogmas in the countries where they are born don't allow women the use of birth control.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Anfauglir on September 12, 2013, 02:53:17 AM
I do not like to call the cosmic consciousness God but yes, it just exists just as you and I do.

It is the next evolutionary step for all of us.

You've said this twice - I do not think it means what you think it means.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 12, 2013, 07:52:13 AM
GIA in my above post I was saying good men...like your cosmic entity could care less about the 5000 children who die every hour of every day 365 days a year.....unlike your "cosmic God" men are all about self preservation....mainly because they don't buy the concept of a heaven or a God.

 Now,what is this cosmic God doing to prevent these deaths?.......SWEET FUCK ALL. Yet the believers who praise him,don't obey him or uphold his instructions to care for the meek,why? Why do these same believer's who won't sacrifice anything to help the meek give God a pass? The believer always has an excuse for why his/her god under performs,no matter what god or belief system.

The only force that can do anything about conditions here is mankind. We are supreme.

And yes, many who profess to believe do not. They are in their religions to follow tradition and culture and that is it.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 12, 2013, 07:55:55 AM
there is also a way to feed the hungry all over the world. Logistics don't get in the way. Greed and desire for my survival over your's or theirs(generally) is what stops the food to getting to source.

 And who is this "we" you are talking about....you may not see it but kids here are malnourished. In some areas of the states people are working more than 3 part time jobs a week to keep from starving.

BTW why are the children being born into a time and place where they starve? The religious dogmas in the countries where they are born don't allow women the use of birth control.

Poor people reproduce more than the rich and I guess insecurity makes them think that there is wealth in children. In some places it is true. They get sold.

I agree that there is corruption in the charitable food delivery system.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 12, 2013, 07:59:58 AM
I do not like to call the cosmic consciousness God but yes, it just exists just as you and I do.

It is the next evolutionary step for all of us.

You've said this twice - I do not think it means what you think it means.

Our consciousness will evolve to join it. Call that process whatever you like if you do not like my use of language.

As a Frenchman I am always eager to improve my English mon ami. Offer an alternative.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: epidemic on September 12, 2013, 08:14:56 AM
I do not like to call the cosmic consciousness God but yes, it just exists just as you and I do.

It is the next evolutionary step for all of us.

You've said this twice - I do not think it means what you think it means.

Our consciousness will evolve to join it. Call that process whatever you like if you do not like my use of language.

As a Frenchman I am always eager to improve my English mon ami. Offer an alternative.

Regards
DL

well the use of evolutionary implies the species is heading that way and someday effectively our progeny will all be born part of the collective consciousness.

I think you're implying that when we die our soul continues on as part of the borg collective:)  that it is more of a stage of our existence rather than an evolutionary step?
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: 12 Monkeys on September 12, 2013, 09:38:17 AM
there is also a way to feed the hungry all over the world. Logistics don't get in the way. Greed and desire for my survival over your's or theirs(generally) is what stops the food to getting to source.

 And who is this "we" you are talking about....you may not see it but kids here are malnourished. In some areas of the states people are working more than 3 part time jobs a week to keep from starving.

BTW why are the children being born into a time and place where they starve? The religious dogmas in the countries where they are born don't allow women the use of birth control.

Poor people reproduce more than the rich and I guess insecurity makes them think that there is wealth in children. In some places it is true. They get sold.

I agree that there is corruption in the charitable food delivery system.

Regards
DL
I see you skipped right over the part where I said religious dogma prevents them from using ANY form of birth control
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 12, 2013, 01:20:19 PM
I do not like to call the cosmic consciousness God but yes, it just exists just as you and I do.

It is the next evolutionary step for all of us.

You've said this twice - I do not think it means what you think it means.

Our consciousness will evolve to join it. Call that process whatever you like if you do not like my use of language.

As a Frenchman I am always eager to improve my English mon ami. Offer an alternative.

Regards
DL

well the use of evolutionary implies the species is heading that way and someday effectively our progeny will all be born part of the collective consciousness.

I think you're implying that when we die our soul continues on as part of the borg collective:)  that it is more of a stage of our existence rather than an evolutionary step?

I see what you are saying and your view is sound.
You are the first to set me straight.
I love to learn but hate to be corrected.

I will have to watch my wording.

Merci man ami.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 12, 2013, 01:25:46 PM
there is also a way to feed the hungry all over the world. Logistics don't get in the way. Greed and desire for my survival over your's or theirs(generally) is what stops the food to getting to source.

 And who is this "we" you are talking about....you may not see it but kids here are malnourished. In some areas of the states people are working more than 3 part time jobs a week to keep from starving.

BTW why are the children being born into a time and place where they starve? The religious dogmas in the countries where they are born don't allow women the use of birth control.

Poor people reproduce more than the rich and I guess insecurity makes them think that there is wealth in children. In some places it is true. They get sold.

I agree that there is corruption in the charitable food delivery system.

Regards
DL
I see you skipped right over the part where I said religious dogma prevents them from using ANY form of birth control

I could not judge the veracity of the comment since in much of the developing world where the poverty is creating this problem Christianity is not the main religion. Think India and I don't know if it is still the case but some of the poorest African countries instability and war chases out contraceptive delivery.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: bertatberts on September 12, 2013, 02:53:55 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am
Merci man ami.
Etes-vous sûr que vous êtes français. Je pourrais comprendre l'erreur si le "A" était à côté du "O" sur le clavier. Mais!  Are you sure you're French. I could understand the mistake if the "A" was next to the "O" on the keyboard.  But!
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: 12 Monkeys on September 12, 2013, 10:40:32 PM
I did not say Christianity.....I said religious dogma
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Ron Jeremy on September 13, 2013, 05:48:41 AM
On morals, I take moral to mean 'inflict no harm or suffering on another living creature'. There are times when inflicting harm or suffering may be warranted for the greater good. Perhaps an example would be travelling back in time to the bedroom of the infant Hitler. If one had a pistol and limited time, it may be argued that it is moral to shoot the infant to prevent the huge loss of life in the second world war. But if one first tortured the infant before shooting, that would be immoral, judged I think by the majority of humanity.

So if we accept that to be moral is to inflict no harm or suffering on another living creature, then this standard does not come from any god. Believers of gods, whether they know it or not, judge their god. If, say, a god were to appear and say "From this day forth I will prevent unnecessary harm and suffering to children', the believer would judge their god to be moral. If the god appeared and said "From this day forth I will inflict harm and suffering on all infants because I delight in their pain", the god would be judged immoral.

Believers of Biblegod also judge their god. They attempt to justify his genocide and rape of the Midanites along with many other biblical atrocities because they hope Biblegod is doing it for the greater good. But they are judging him, none the less, by a moral yardstick that is separate from the god.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Anfauglir on September 13, 2013, 08:24:01 AM
On morals, I take moral to mean 'inflict no harm or suffering on another living creature'. There are times when inflicting harm or suffering may be warranted for the greater good. Perhaps an example would be travelling back in time to the bedroom of the infant Hitler. If one had a pistol and limited time, it may be argued that it is moral to shoot the infant to prevent the huge loss of life in the second world war.

Big aside here.....

I'm not sure it would be moral.  The baby has done nothing.  The justification would be "it is inevitable it will grow up to commit atrocities" - yet the very scenario makes clear that its upbringing is NOT inevitable. 

My head spins.  I now return you to the thread already in progress.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: epidemic on September 13, 2013, 08:39:03 AM

I take moral to mean 'inflict no harm or suffering on another living creature'.




But if one first tortured the infant before shooting, that would be immoral, judged I think by the majority of humanity.


I think the key would be to add one word to this "I take moral to mean 'inflict no unnecessary harm or suffering on another living creature'."



Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Mrjason on September 13, 2013, 08:41:57 AM
^^^ yeah I was thinking that too. Wouldn't it be better to use your time machine to go back to 1930 and rig the votes so that he didn't get elected. Or any permutaion of events to stop him that doesn't involve a murder. The fact the you have other options available would make the murder immoral. IMO.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: epidemic on September 13, 2013, 08:44:03 AM
On morals, I take moral to mean 'inflict no harm or suffering on another living creature'. There are times when inflicting harm or suffering may be warranted for the greater good. Perhaps an example would be travelling back in time to the bedroom of the infant Hitler. If one had a pistol and limited time, it may be argued that it is moral to shoot the infant to prevent the huge loss of life in the second world war.

Big aside here.....

I'm not sure it would be moral.  The baby has done nothing.  The justification would be "it is inevitable it will grow up to commit atrocities" - yet the very scenario makes clear that its upbringing is NOT inevitable. 

My head spins.  I now return you to the thread already in progress.

although there may be an alternative, you have to work from the perspective of "to the best of my knowledge Hitler will grow up and cause tremendous suffering" 

Of course there is the alternative.  Perhaps if Hitler did not grow up and comitt his attrocities perhaps Russia would have had someone else in power and he decided that they could achieve a nuclear first strike during the cuban missile crisis and instead of a cold war we had a third world war wiping out 90% of life on planet earth.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on September 13, 2013, 09:01:18 AM
The truly moral thing to do would be to go back in time and become a significant and positive influence in baby Hitler's life, being with him as he grew and making sure that he became well grounded and compassionate and other things. And still being prepared to kill him if he turned into an asshole.

And epidemic has a good point. There is no guarantee that history would take a turn for the better just because one bad influence was removed. Had Hitler never been born, we might be having this same discussion about some different foreigner, named Chuck, who caused 6 million deaths because he hated seafood and attacked Maine. And eliminating Hitler from the equation would still leave his junior assistant assholes alive and with power. Goebbels, etc. were certainly his icky equals.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Mrjason on September 13, 2013, 09:21:28 AM
ParkingPlaces, I agree. Where would it stop, being a time traveller would be a full time business a la quantum leap.
if you had the chance though would you go back to C. 30CE and give paul a slap and tell him to stop being so silly?
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on September 13, 2013, 09:32:02 AM
ParkingPlaces, I agree. Where would it stop, being a time traveller would be a full time business a la quantum leap.
if you had the chance though would you go back to C. 30CE and give paul a slap and tell him to stop being so silly?

Hey, if it were possible, I'd go back in time and do most anything but kiss Mother Theresa. History always suffers from being wrong, no matter how accurate it is. Because it can't be completely right about anything. I, for one, would love to know more about what things were really like hundreds and thousands of years ago, and if I got to bitch-slap Paul in the process, all the better.

Actual travel back in time would be fraught with problems. Health issues, for instance. If old European cultures were as dirty as history says, it would be harder than hell to avoid infections and the common diseases of the time. Especially if the time traveler lacked native resistance to the diseases. I assume smallpox vaccinations would help, but I'm guessing there were a lot of problems that we, as relatively clean members of society, couldn't imagine.

I'd still go, but I might take some soap with me.

Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Ron Jeremy on September 13, 2013, 10:38:28 AM
By limited time I meant a couple of seconds; no chance to take him away and have him adopted by a Jewish couple. The choice, for this scenario, is to pull the trigger or not.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Hatter23 on September 13, 2013, 10:40:54 AM

Actual travel back in time would be fraught with problems. Health issues, for instance. If old European cultures were as dirty as history says, it would be harder than hell to avoid infections and the common diseases of the time. Especially if the time traveler lacked native resistance to the diseases. I assume smallpox vaccinations would help, but I'm guessing there were a lot of problems that we, as relatively clean members of society, couldn't imagine.

I'd still go, but I might take some soap with me.

It is a mixed bag, you would likely be a worse risk for them than them for you. You are from a cosmopolitan heavily traveled and densely populated people. They are not.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: neopagan on September 13, 2013, 10:44:03 AM
Actual travel back in time would be fraught with problems. Health issues, for instance. If old European cultures were as dirty as history says, it would be harder than hell to avoid infections and the common diseases of the time. Especially if the time traveler lacked native resistance to the diseases. I assume smallpox vaccinations would help, but I'm guessing there were a lot of problems that we, as relatively clean members of society, couldn't imagine.

Too bad your smallpox vaccination scar would be seen as the mark of the devil and you'd be burned at the stake.

Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Ron Jeremy on September 13, 2013, 10:47:12 AM
Besides, the intention wasn't to start a debate on time travel! I was trying to point out that morals do not come from a god because we use our morals to judge whether a god is acting morally or not. I agree with the addition 'unnecessary suffering'. It seems to me that Christians have to assume that all the suffering in the bible was necessary for the greater good. If it wasn't, if god was just being a dick with an uncontrollable temper, then he was acting immorally. The yardstick we use to judge whether an action is 'good' or 'bad' comes from within every one of us, with varying degrees depending on our own moral compass. The fact that we judge Biblegod tells me that he isn't the one that has dispensed the morals.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Mrjason on September 13, 2013, 10:48:43 AM
By limited time I meant a couple of seconds; no chance to take him away and have him adopted by a Jewish couple. The choice, for this scenario, is to pull the trigger or not.

there's still alternatives to killing a baby in that scenario. How about you shoot yourself so Mr & Mrs Hitler take better care of their boy after finding a shot body in his room.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Ron Jeremy on September 13, 2013, 10:52:14 AM
Did I mention the gun was welded to a vice bolted to a 5 ton bench in the time machine, when you appear in little Hitler's room it's pointed at his head and you only have 2 seconds in there? And the time machine has locked controls; it does one trip to that time only then self destructs? Wasn't sure if I mentioned that part...
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Hatter23 on September 13, 2013, 11:00:11 AM
Actual travel back in time would be fraught with problems. Health issues, for instance. If old European cultures were as dirty as history says, it would be harder than hell to avoid infections and the common diseases of the time. Especially if the time traveler lacked native resistance to the diseases. I assume smallpox vaccinations would help, but I'm guessing there were a lot of problems that we, as relatively clean members of society, couldn't imagine.

Too bad your smallpox vaccination scar would be seen as the mark of the devil and you'd be burned at the stake.

Eh it was not quite that bad. People at the time were riddled with marks and scars and the bad witchfinder could always find something to call a witches mark, and if you had none...that would be unnatural...and evidence of witchery.

That's unless he actually paid attention to the Malleus Malificorium rather than reading a few passages and waving it around yelling scary things.(Sound familiar?)
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 13, 2013, 11:32:47 AM
Quote from: Greatest I am
Merci man ami.
Etes-vous sûr que vous êtes français. Je pourrais comprendre l'erreur si le "A" était à côté du "O" sur le clavier. Mais!  Are you sure you're French. I could understand the mistake if the "A" was next to the "O" on the keyboard.  But!

Je peux fair plusieur erreur avec trois langage. Francais, Englais et Franglais.

A prochaine chicane.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 13, 2013, 11:39:46 AM
On morals, I take moral to mean 'inflict no harm or suffering on another living creature'. There are times when inflicting harm or suffering may be warranted for the greater good. Perhaps an example would be travelling back in time to the bedroom of the infant Hitler. If one had a pistol and limited time, it may be argued that it is moral to shoot the infant to prevent the huge loss of life in the second world war. But if one first tortured the infant before shooting, that would be immoral, judged I think by the majority of humanity.

So if we accept that to be moral is to inflict no harm or suffering on another living creature, then this standard does not come from any god. Believers of gods, whether they know it or not, judge their god. If, say, a god were to appear and say "From this day forth I will prevent unnecessary harm and suffering to children', the believer would judge their god to be moral. If the god appeared and said "From this day forth I will inflict harm and suffering on all infants because I delight in their pain", the god would be judged immoral.

Believers of Biblegod also judge their god. They attempt to justify his genocide and rape of the Midanites along with many other biblical atrocities because they hope Biblegod is doing it for the greater good. But they are judging him, none the less, by a moral yardstick that is separate from the god.

Yes and thus showing their immoral double standards.

Here is a prime example of that and I have yet to get even one immoral Christian to agree that God sinned when, as he says, Satan moved him to do harm without just cause.

I always get the usual, God does not have to follow his own laws because he owns us.

Christians have no problem with owning humans/'slavery it seems.

Until you ask them and then their double standards come out again.

Regards
DL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeOfzN8ZTAM
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 13, 2013, 11:46:41 AM
If I could time travel, I think I would head for Eden just after A & E ate and I would make sure that God did not murder A & E by neglect and locking away the tree of life.

If I am to fight evil, I may as well kill the most evil force that can exist.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: bertatberts on September 13, 2013, 12:13:22 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am
Merci man ami.
Etes-vous sûr que vous êtes français. Je pourrais comprendre l'erreur si le "A" était à côté du "O" sur le clavier. Mais!  Are you sure you're French. I could understand the mistake if the "A" was next to the "O" on the keyboard.  But!

Je peux fair plusieur erreur avec trois langage. Francais, Englais et Franglais.

A prochaine chicane.

Regards
DL
convenu et comprendre
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Ron Jeremy on September 13, 2013, 12:14:44 PM
Somebody said on one of the posts here "Give me an iPod, a flame thrower and a time machine, and you'll worship me like a god!" Did make me laugh, and with a very large element of truth! +1 Karma for that, whoever you are!
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: epidemic on September 13, 2013, 12:24:39 PM
Actual travel back in time would be fraught with problems. Health issues, for instance. If old European cultures were as dirty as history says, it would be harder than hell to avoid infections and the common diseases of the time. Especially if the time traveler lacked native resistance to the diseases. I assume smallpox vaccinations would help, but I'm guessing there were a lot of problems that we, as relatively clean members of society, couldn't imagine.

Too bad your smallpox vaccination scar would be seen as the mark of the devil and you'd be burned at the stake.

Don't be silly, they reserved the mark of the beast for women generally :)

You would need to make a real political mistake for them to search a dude.



Personally I think I would go back in time with a butt load of guns and ammo and become king of the world.  I think 200 or 300 man army with AK-7 class weapons could rule a major part of the world.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: neopagan on September 13, 2013, 01:07:21 PM

Personally I think I would go back in time with a butt load of guns and ammo and become king of the world.  I think 200 or 300 man army with AK-7 class weapons could rule a major part of the world.

probably a few African shithole countries now you could pull that off in, if you have a desire to be a despot.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: 12 Monkeys on September 14, 2013, 02:50:13 PM

Personally I think I would go back in time with a butt load of guns and ammo and become king of the world.  I think 200 or 300 man army with AK-7 class weapons could rule a major part of the world.

probably a few African shithole countries now you could pull that off in, if you have a desire to be a despot.
You don't need guns,the skills of a good street magician would be enough to convince the goat-herders you are magic.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Nam on September 14, 2013, 03:26:08 PM
I did not say Christianity.....I said religious dogma

Give up. Idiots only see the hand punching them in the face.

-Nam
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: epidemic on September 16, 2013, 12:22:39 AM

Personally I think I would go back in time with a butt load of guns and ammo and become king of the world.  I think 200 or 300 man army with AK-7 class weapons could rule a major part of the world.

probably a few African shithole countries now you could pull that off in, if you have a desire to be a despot.
You don't need guns,the skills of a good street magician would be enough to convince the goat-herders you are magic.

I would not want to be a despot,   I would try for elevating man to his potential, a benevolent dictatorship would be my goal.  I might choose to be their diety just for convenience sake,  not for the power or prestige
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: bertatberts on September 16, 2013, 03:29:22 AM
I'd go back to the drawing board if I were you, you don't seems to understand what a despot nor a dictatorship is. 
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Mrjason on September 16, 2013, 04:27:49 AM
If I could I'd go back in time with an apachie gunship then hail the goat herders over the loadspeaker and say something along the lines of

" Hey, its me, god. Look, this isn't really working. Its not you it's me. I'm gonna go away now and you're gonna have to figure out how to be on your own, you're strong so I know you can do it. You need to get on with your lives like I never existed. Oh and don't try to get in contact with me again or I'll execute every last mother f*cking one of you..."

Job done.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Nam on September 16, 2013, 04:28:59 PM
^you'd have to say it in their exact language, not in English, or they won't understand you.

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: epidemic on September 17, 2013, 03:00:43 PM
But... all those dictators were real.  We have some proof of what they did. 

I have no high horse, but I do draw the line at imaginary things (gods) and made up places (like hell).  Besides, if this god character turns out to be real, he/she/it/they probably would not be impressed by my faking belief in him/her/it/them on some variant of Pascal's wager.

Besides, why be afraid of god (YHWH) and not zeus, mithras, etc.?  They could all be as nasty to you as biblegod for not knuckling under to them, if you go that route.  It ends up getting confusing...

in my above post I stated that i did meet god and I am aware of his power.  After being made fully aware of said god whether he be zeus or king kong I think most people would knuckle under to him.  there would also not be a fake belief because I just stated that he revealed himself.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Add Homonym on September 17, 2013, 10:46:10 PM

let me put it to you this way,  if you were to take a blank slate,  a person who is somehow raised with no reference to religion either in the affirmative or the negative.   Do you believe they would have faith in a god anything akin to yours?  I usually use the babies on an island analogy.  If you placed babies on an island and somehow they survived to adulthood and became a thriving community,  what religion would they be?

My theory is they would invent a rain god, and a lightning god, a god of war, and a place we go after death slowly over the millenia they would refine those gods.  I am not saying you would not have faith with out the bible,  I am saying you would absolutely have a diffent faith absent the bible. 

the bible is ingrained in our culture,  it is part of your religion whether you like it or not.

Your previous examples of "untouched" African tribes is also part of your unfinished argument. I would call it a straw man, but you just haven't thought it through.

The primary reasons all cultures invent religion, is a list
- to give explanations to frightening and awesome things
- for weather, crop and fertility control
- to empower one class, who rules over the others
- to explain injustice
- to quell the fear of death

We have ample examples that religion stays primitive and animistic, when people live in bark huts. But, when civilization become agrarian, there seems to be a need for a power class, and sacrifice to the gods. The Jewish religion is the best example of how religion can be used to keep people in control, because they actually went through a phase when God gave out specific "laws". They might have been able to do this, die to high literacy rates, whereas other cultures may have just had Kings making arbitrary stuff up, to control the kingdom.

The problem next, for the evolution of civilization, is: how do you get out from beneath kings? It's never an easy task, because kings are necessary, to fight other civilizations off, and they tend to have near absolute power, as well as all the wealth.

This is when the peasant philosopher arrives. The peasant philosopher has to sculpt rules to disempower kings. We have Buddha, who supposedly gave all his wealth away, and we have Jesus, telling the ruler to give all his wealth away. They both make a statement that kings and worldly power mean nothing.

You can't overthrow kings using force, because it just creates another king. You have to use subversive brainwashing instead. The problem is: how do you actually entice people to give up wealth and power, so that the civil servant and upper class becomes less corrupt? This is where the afterlife comes in. You only get to the afterlife (or liberate to Nirvana), if you become pure, and give up all your wealth.

The things that naturally help this subversive idea along, are:
- rich people don't appear to be all that happy
- those who indulge in excessive gluttony tend to pay for it in heart disease and VD
- dishonest people are generally hated
- people are generally jealous of rich and successful people, and delight in bringing them down
- those who develop extensive social groups, and help people, tend to get plenty of emotional pay-off, as well as opportunities
- your wealth is no good to you after you die

This all creates adequate basis for the peasant philosopher to work the polemic part of his bullshit. I believe that the Sermon on The Mount, is actually the mustard seed, that gets under people's radar. Nobody actually does any of it, but the mustard seed is like a virus, that everyone tips their hat to, as they invade other countries, and molest small boys. The general principles of it seem to be true, so maybe the polemic is true: that we should give all our wealth to our enemies.

If civilization can evolve past this struggle with kings and wealth; into the Star Trek era, then perhaps we will see new moral parts of religion.

Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: essgeeskee on September 19, 2013, 02:39:27 AM
According to Christians, just by being born, EVERYONE is a sinner.

In my opinion, morality is like a light switch you can turn on and off. Too bad there's no switch for our so called "sin gene" that Christians swear we all have.

So basically, I guess bible-god brought everyone into the world as "i/moral sinners".

I guess my point it, why bother trying to posses morality when your god will always see you as a sinner?

I think it's better to be good for goodness sake.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: dzzer on September 19, 2013, 03:32:05 AM
If morality is variable, unmeasurable and relative it is also undefinable save in a specific moment, by specific people in specific circumstances.  It is a moveable object that everyone and yet no-one has the right to move.  To my mind morality cannot be discussed in any meaningful fashion without first establishing the authority, truth or foundation upon which it is to be built.  I can think of lots of ways to establish such foundations but in examining these I find non-theists get enraged find none of the options desirable or even palatable.   Boiling it down to simple options it seems to me that morality can be built on 1) the view of the majority 2) the elect (self elected or voted) 3) ration and reason 4) external element (God, God's or simply "the force").   Non-theists I have discussed this with strive to embrace 1),  2) or 3) but in the end concede these options are abhorrent and not acceptable since at their heart there is simply no right or wrong, good or evil.  This leaves a massive vacuum somehow and for some reason the majority of us cannot live with because it doesn't explain the world we live in and specifically the heinous acts we have witnessed.  I'm more than happy to consider the other options if they could be presented to hold water but the reality of rational thought in my mind leaves only option 4). 
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Anfauglir on September 19, 2013, 06:12:17 AM
Boiling it down to simple options it seems to me that morality can be built on 1) the view of the majority 2) the elect (self elected or voted) 3) ration and reason 4) external element (God, God's or simply "the force").   Non-theists I have discussed this with strive to embrace 1),  2) or 3) but in the end concede these options are abhorrent and not acceptable since at their heart there is simply no right or wrong, good or evil.  This leaves a massive vacuum somehow and for some reason the majority of us cannot live with because it doesn't explain the world we live in and specifically the heinous acts we have witnessed.  I'm more than happy to consider the other options if they could be presented to hold water but the reality of rational thought in my mind leaves only option 4).

I'd be happy to accept that.....as soon as you can demonstrate how a sentient (4) does not fall within category (2).
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: dzzer on September 19, 2013, 06:50:06 AM
Sentience has at least on this topic of morality has little value.  I attempt to deliberately put aside what I feel or sense in order to rationally approach the question of morality.  In doing so there is no sentient 4).  There is only a logical 4).  Elect or self elect 2) means from human perspective.  It's self evident that option 4) something beyond us in all probability is self elected.  The question  that draws to credibility of the claim to self elect or elect.  I have found any and all argument that any human or even group of humans have any right to decided morality based on their own authority.  A being greater than us, however, we describe greater could make such a logical argument even if we didn't agree with it.   Such a being could rationally claim to have greater knowledge, greater understanding, greater power, etc.  That doesn't mean the being is necessarily better in the same way a parent might know more and yet make a mistake their child wouldn't have.  It just means if you're going to decide who in the family has the most rational argument to make decisions it has to be the greater knowledge parent.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: epidemic on September 19, 2013, 07:45:03 AM

let me put it to you this way,  if you were to take a blank slate,  a person who is somehow raised with no reference to religion either in the affirmative or the negative.   Do you believe they would have faith in a god anything akin to yours?  I usually use the babies on an island analogy.  If you placed babies on an island and somehow they survived to adulthood and became a thriving community,  what religion would they be?

My theory is they would invent a rain god, and a lightning god, a god of war, and a place we go after death slowly over the millenia they would refine those gods.  I am not saying you would not have faith with out the bible,  I am saying you would absolutely have a diffent faith absent the bible. 

the bible is ingrained in our culture,  it is part of your religion whether you like it or not.

Your previous examples of "untouched" African tribes is also part of your unfinished argument. I would call it a straw man, but you just haven't thought it through.

The primary reasons all cultures invent religion, is a list
- to give explanations to frightening and awesome things
- for weather, crop and fertility control
- to empower one class, who rules over the others
- to explain injustice
- to quell the fear of death

We have ample examples that religion stays primitive and animistic, when people live in bark huts. But, when civilization become agrarian, there seems to be a need for a power class, and sacrifice to the gods. The Jewish religion is the best example of how religion can be used to keep people in control, because they actually went through a phase when God gave out specific "laws". They might have been able to do this, die to high literacy rates, whereas other cultures may have just had Kings making arbitrary stuff up, to control the kingdom.

The problem next, for the evolution of civilization, is: how do you get out from beneath kings? It's never an easy task, because kings are necessary, to fight other civilizations off, and they tend to have near absolute power, as well as all the wealth.

This is when the peasant philosopher arrives. The peasant philosopher has to sculpt rules to disempower kings. We have Buddha, who supposedly gave all his wealth away, and we have Jesus, telling the ruler to give all his wealth away. They both make a statement that kings and worldly power mean nothing.

You can't overthrow kings using force, because it just creates another king. You have to use subversive brainwashing instead. The problem is: how do you actually entice people to give up wealth and power, so that the civil servant and upper class becomes less corrupt? This is where the afterlife comes in. You only get to the afterlife (or liberate to Nirvana), if you become pure, and give up all your wealth.

The things that naturally help this subversive idea along, are:
- rich people don't appear to be all that happy
- those who indulge in excessive gluttony tend to pay for it in heart disease and VD
- dishonest people are generally hated
- people are generally jealous of rich and successful people, and delight in bringing them down
- those who develop extensive social groups, and help people, tend to get plenty of emotional pay-off, as well as opportunities
- your wealth is no good to you after you die

This all creates adequate basis for the peasant philosopher to work the polemic part of his bullshit. I believe that the Sermon on The Mount, is actually the mustard seed, that gets under people's radar. Nobody actually does any of it, but the mustard seed is like a virus, that everyone tips their hat to, as they invade other countries, and molest small boys. The general principles of it seem to be true, so maybe the polemic is true: that we should give all our wealth to our enemies.

If civilization can evolve past this struggle with kings and wealth; into the Star Trek era, then perhaps we will see new moral parts of religion.

I would say neither a strawman nor was my argument unfinished.  I chose not to go into detail, I agree with much if not all you said beyond that.  My objective was to simply say that in a natural untouched population, there is a solid chance that a religion would form and evolve.  That said religion would bear little similarity to your current religion. 

The Ala Carte christian bases his religious belief on a combination of the bible and all other sources.  But the bible is dug in there like a tick.

this was a response to someone who said they did not follow the bible.  I contend that they actually are because it is built into their cultural awareness.  That his god is loosly based on the bible god.  Ultimately I am asking why he has his christian ala carte religion if he believes the bible is false.  If he could eliminate all of his biblical baggage (since he already says the bible is false) could he explain where he belief in god comes from.  If he were raised in a world with out christianity does he think his religion would remain unchanged?
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Anfauglir on September 19, 2013, 08:57:09 AM
Sentience has at least on this topic of morality has little value.  I attempt to deliberately put aside what I feel or sense in order to rationally approach the question of morality.  In doing so there is no sentient 4).  There is only a logical 4).  Elect or self elect 2) means from human perspective.  It's self evident that option 4) something beyond us in all probability is self elected. 

Ah, I see.  You were loading the options before you posed the question - my mistake.

A being greater than us, however, we describe greater could make such a logical argument even if we didn't agree with it.   Such a being could rationally claim to have greater knowledge, greater understanding, greater power, etc. 

Maybe.  Who knows?  Such a being would have to be proven before a universal morality can be established, of course.  So what you are saying essentially is that we have NO way of deducing a universal morality.  Fair enough.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: ParkingPlaces on September 19, 2013, 09:05:25 AM
Dzzer

Question. If a being greater than us is the one responsible for our morality, shouldn't he or she be moral enough to pass on that morality in a competent manner?  In the case of the alleged christian god, his morality is supposedly passed on via one book, which is multiply interpreted, both unmaliciously and maliciously altered, hard to understand and never updated to keep up with modernizing and ever more complex societies. Not to mention defining morals and keeping them local until such time as his lambs learn how to cross oceans and such.

Such inefficiencies seem to indicate an overall incompetence. I'm not sure i would want a god who is immorally hung up on both his own ego and free will to be defining anything in my life. Someone muttering "Worship me, worship me!" and "I don't care that that little girl is being raped and murdered by that sexual predator right now, his free will to choose me trumps her little life" isn't the one I want telling me what is right and wrong when it comes to moral dilemmas.

If my morals trump his, I don't want him telling me what I should do. You know, like telling me that I have to cut off my wife's hand if she should happen to touch the genitals of my attacker while trying to stop him from hurting me.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Anfauglir on September 19, 2013, 09:13:07 AM
Further to that, as Dzzer points out, it is pointless debating a morality that is "variable, unmeasurable and relative".  So any moral being such as he poses would HAVE to be subject to the same morality as every other creature. 

The universal morality Dzzer is seeking certainly disqualifies Yahweh from the running, as his morality is clearly variable according to who you are.  Not to say there isn't another candidate for Dzzer's all-knowing god that follows the universal morality it created, just that most gods throughtout history don't fit the bill.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 19, 2013, 10:32:54 AM
According to Christians, just by being born, EVERYONE is a sinner.

In my opinion, morality is like a light switch you can turn on and off. Too bad there's no switch for our so called "sin gene" that Christians swear we all have.

So basically, I guess bible-god brought everyone into the world as "i/moral sinners".

I guess my point it, why bother trying to posses morality when your god will always see you as a sinner?

I think it's better to be good for goodness sake.

First let me say that Christianity developed the original sin concept from Eden yet the Jews saw Eden as a place of man's elevation and not the fall that Christianity made of it.

Christianity's form of being born sinners is true but not the way they see it is wrong.

We all have the potential and will all do evil, no choice, but our default position is to cooperate or do good and not compete which creates a victim or loser and is thus evil from his POV while things are good from our POV as the winner.


Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

These links speak to theistic evolution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXOvYn1OAL0&list=UUDXjzOeZRqLxhYaaEhWLb_A&index=9

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

If the above is not convincing enough for you then show me where in this baby evil lives or is a part of it’s nature and instincts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL 
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 19, 2013, 10:39:49 AM
If morality is variable, unmeasurable and relative it is also undefinable save in a specific moment, by specific people in specific circumstances.  It is a moveable object that everyone and yet no-one has the right to move.  To my mind morality cannot be discussed in any meaningful fashion without first establishing the authority, truth or foundation upon which it is to be built.  I can think of lots of ways to establish such foundations but in examining these I find non-theists get enraged find none of the options desirable or even palatable.   Boiling it down to simple options it seems to me that morality can be built on 1) the view of the majority 2) the elect (self elected or voted) 3) ration and reason 4) external element (God, God's or simply "the force").   Non-theists I have discussed this with strive to embrace 1),  2) or 3) but in the end concede these options are abhorrent and not acceptable since at their heart there is simply no right or wrong, good or evil.  This leaves a massive vacuum somehow and for some reason the majority of us cannot live with because it doesn't explain the world we live in and specifically the heinous acts we have witnessed.  I'm more than happy to consider the other options if they could be presented to hold water but the reality of rational thought in my mind leaves only option 4).

If I were to agree here then you would have to explain why most moral codes put others first but with Christianity their God put's himself above all else even as he is not here to express his sovereignty and will.

Morality is how to treat others but God is only worried about himself and is completely self-centered and self-absorbed. IOW, God is not a moral entity at all.

No wonder he can kill so many of us as compared to Satan.

Satan has better morals than God.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 19, 2013, 10:44:12 AM
Sentience has at least on this topic of morality has little value.  I attempt to deliberately put aside what I feel or sense in order to rationally approach the question of morality.  In doing so there is no sentient 4).  There is only a logical 4).  Elect or self elect 2) means from human perspective.  It's self evident that option 4) something beyond us in all probability is self elected.  The question  that draws to credibility of the claim to self elect or elect.  I have found any and all argument that any human or even group of humans have any right to decided morality based on their own authority.  A being greater than us, however, we describe greater could make such a logical argument even if we didn't agree with it.   Such a being could rationally claim to have greater knowledge, greater understanding, greater power, etc.  That doesn't mean the being is necessarily better in the same way a parent might know more and yet make a mistake their child wouldn't have.  It just means if you're going to decide who in the family has the most rational argument to make decisions it has to be the greater knowledge parent.

And if we look at A & E then the greater knowledge was with Eve and it was recognized by Adam who did the right thing by going with her and not the God who was demonstrably not as bright as Eve in the moral and only real important sense to the bible.

Regards
DL

Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Foxy Freedom on September 24, 2013, 06:37:17 PM
Religion is the state of mind which allows someone to demonise the outsider with good conscience.

It overcomes the innate morality which has evolved to form communities.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 25, 2013, 02:28:35 AM
Ohh the great theist morality debate...

It makes me ponder what would happen if the *insert holy book* disappeared, heck, some of them even claim that they becomes monsters of morality and start raping everything.

Then they start talking about how atheists must have got their morals from somewhere, and somehow don't know about parents, media, literature (other than the bible), etc.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Foxy Freedom on September 25, 2013, 03:33:49 AM
I should have added a third sentence.

Someone within the single community desires to be controlled even to the point of physical and moral damage to prove that they belong. ( mutual mutilation for example )

So religion is poison both to the insider and to the outsider.

Human morality is at present out of step with large scale communities such as cities. Humans may evolve to become either more peaceful or more violent, or just have to cope with it and become better educated.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 25, 2013, 07:47:57 AM
Religion is the state of mind which allows someone to demonise the outsider with good conscience.

It overcomes the innate morality which has evolved to form communities.

You see 20/20.

Protecting ones tribe is ok but not at the cost of creating delusion that as you say demonizes all the other tribes.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 25, 2013, 07:50:35 AM
Ohh the great theist morality debate...

It makes me ponder what would happen if the *insert holy book* disappeared, heck, some of them even claim that they becomes monsters of morality and start raping everything.

Then they start talking about how atheists must have got their morals from somewhere, and somehow don't know about parents, media, literature (other than the bible), etc.

Indeed.

The stats show the opposite right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94f2h-5TvbM&feature=player_embedded

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 25, 2013, 07:56:24 AM
I should have added a third sentence.

Someone within the single community desires to be controlled even to the point of physical and moral damage to prove that they belong. ( mutual mutilation for example )

So religion is poison both to the insider and to the outsider.

Human morality is at present out of step with large scale communities such as cities. Humans may evolve to become either more peaceful or more violent, or just have to cope with it and become better educated.

Oops. On this I cannot agree.

Note how most countries are rejecting any kind of religious law and are voting secular.

They recognize the more moral system of secular humanism that is basically taking over.

No half way intelligent religionist is foolish enough to want the barbaric laws of their religions.

Note how even the Muslims do not favor Sharea law.

And Christians, well ----------

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-2_LqOS3uo

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: screwtape on September 25, 2013, 08:36:20 AM

Note how most countries are rejecting any kind of religious law and are voting secular.

for example...?

Can you find examples to the contrary?

No half way intelligent religionist is foolish enough to want the barbaric laws of their religions.

Good luck finding a half way intelligent religionist.

Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 25, 2013, 09:06:54 AM
Quote

Note how most countries are rejecting any kind of religious law and are voting secular.

for example...?

Egypt as we speak are booting out the brotherhood and the last time Libya was given the vote.

Quote
Can you find examples to the contrary?

Iran is the only country under Sharia law that comes to mind. I think the Saudis are half way or something.

Quote
No half way intelligent religionist is foolish enough to want the barbaric laws of their religions.

Good luck finding a half way intelligent religionist.

Think left wing and center and not right wing.

Give credit where credit is due.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Hatter23 on September 25, 2013, 09:32:00 AM

Good luck finding a half way intelligent religionist.

More than a few. Steven Colbert for example. Just because a person is intelligent, does not mean they cannot have a delusion. It just lowers the likelyhood.

Cognitive dissonance is common in the regard.

Now Intelligent and Creationist?.....now we are talking a much much rarer breed. Well versed in the hard sciences.......
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: screwtape on September 25, 2013, 09:34:29 AM
Egypt as we speak are booting out the brotherhood...

Nope.  Egypt voted in the MB.  The military booted them out, illegally.

Quote
Can you find examples to the contrary?

Iran is the only country under Sharia law that comes to mind. I think the Saudis are half way or something.

the question I was asking was not secular vs sharia.  It was secular vs religious.  Your statement to which I was responding was "Note how most countries are rejecting any kind of religious law and are voting secular."  Bold mine. There is a lot of ground covered between Sharia and "any kind of religious law". 

Ireland's extremist laws against abortion are religiously grounded as they are in many Central American countries.  I believe Ireland is also considering anti-blasphemy laws, which are also religious.  Turkey is moving away from a strictly secular government and has voted in an islamist government.

Don't get me wrong.  I'd be thrilled if people really were becoming less religious and voting more secular.  I just don't see it.


Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 25, 2013, 09:40:57 AM

Good luck finding a half way intelligent religionist.

More than a few. Steven Colbert for example. Just because a person is intelligent, does not mean they cannot have a delusion. It just lowers the likelyhood.

Cognitive dissonance is common in the regard.

Now Intelligent and Creationist?.....now we are talking a much much rarer breed. Well versed in the hard sciences.......


Yes and no.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjxZ6MrBl9E&feature=related

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 25, 2013, 09:47:14 AM
Egypt as we speak are booting out the brotherhood...

Nope.  Egypt voted in the MB.  The military booted them out, illegally.

Quote
Can you find examples to the contrary?

Iran is the only country under Sharia law that comes to mind. I think the Saudis are half way or something.

the question I was asking was not secular vs sharia.  It was secular vs religious.  Your statement to which I was responding was "Note how most countries are rejecting any kind of religious law and are voting secular."  Bold mine. There is a lot of ground covered between Sharia and "any kind of religious law". 

Ireland's extremist laws against abortion are religiously grounded as they are in many Central American countries.  I believe Ireland is also considering anti-blasphemy laws, which are also religious.  Turkey is moving away from a strictly secular government and has voted in an islamist government.

Don't get me wrong.  I'd be thrilled if people really were becoming less religious and voting more secular.  I just don't see it.

There are exception in various laws. No statement today can be all inclusive on such but nowhere do you se people advocating to stone fornicators or unruly children and only the most backwards Muslim communities are stoning gays.

Many Muslim countries have a few actual Sharea laws in place but not their mora draconian ones. All they have is a washed out version.

We live in a secular world that is moving further into secularism.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Foxy Freedom on September 25, 2013, 12:41:51 PM
Examples of what I meant by religion also damaging the insider physically or mentally is circumcision, Christians whipping themselves for sins, wearing lice filled sackcloth under their clothes, not to mention dormitory activities. I was not suggesting anything like demonisation of the outsider.

Quantative Research just published shows that complex societies were formed through intense warfare as the primary determining cause with high correlation. Previous quantative studies show environmental use was important too. We know from earlier sites such as gobekli tepe that the large scale social bond was already religious so it looks as though religious demonisation of the outsider was an important part of the mental outlook in the creation of complex societies. So When your Christian friend says that religion was important in creating society, he was probably right. The irony of it.

Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: jdawg70 on September 25, 2013, 12:52:02 PM
There are exception in various laws. No statement today can be all inclusive on such but nowhere do you se people advocating to stone fornicators or unruly children and only the most backwards Muslim communities are stoning gays.
Uganda.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: wright on September 25, 2013, 01:16:00 PM
There are exception in various laws. No statement today can be all inclusive on such but nowhere do you se people advocating to stone fornicators or unruly children and only the most backwards Muslim communities are stoning gays.

Here's a link that unfortunately shows the stoning and witch-burning advocates are far from gone:http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/11/12/uganda-passes-kill-the-gays-bill/ (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/11/12/uganda-passes-kill-the-gays-bill/)
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: screwtape on September 25, 2013, 01:33:35 PM
More than a few. Steven Colbert for example.

Hey!  You got lucky!

I know there's smart religious people, but they are less common than stupid ones.  Because stupid people are just a lot more common than smart ones.  And a significant portion of smart ones are atheists.  So if you select a given religious person, odds are, that person is also stupid.  So, I stand by my snarky comment.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Nam on September 25, 2013, 01:59:08 PM
Atheists are just as stupid as religious people. Atheists will continuously argue with a person who they know are a wall.

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Foxy Freedom on September 25, 2013, 02:39:29 PM
I am interested this subject but I have not been able to find much. A separate discussion might be useful.

What i would like to know is how " well qualified intelligent people" can turn off their brains. Does anyone have experience of this? I once saw a physicist pick up a feather and say it was proof of design, he started talking like child.

I am also interested the kind of people who turn from atheism to religion and I would like to find some examples of how much they knew before they changed their minds.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: neopagan on September 25, 2013, 03:19:18 PM
I am also interested the kind of people who turn from atheism to religion and I would like to find some examples of how much they knew before they changed their minds.

Check out this site. http://iloveatheists.com/
 They claim several "former atheists" or skeptical non believers.   Without trying to play too many no true atheist cards, I would say most former atheists who turn to religion were not atheists in a sense that they chose that stance  through any intellectual rigor... just a term they used by default.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Hatter23 on September 25, 2013, 04:09:52 PM
I am also interested the kind of people who turn from atheism to religion and I would like to find some examples of how much they knew before they changed their minds.

Check out this site. http://iloveatheists.com/
 They claim several "former atheists" or skeptical non believers.   Without trying to play too many no true atheist cards, I would say most former atheists who turn to religion were not atheists in a sense that they chose that stance  through any intellectual rigor... just a term they used by default.

Yeah, any stance you arrive at by illogical means, you can be swayed away from by illogical means. Every time I hear about a "former atheist" that turned back to gnostic theism (not just Deism) their supposed reason for being an atheist involves the death of a loved one or an illness....or they define atheism as living the sex and drugs lifestyle.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 25, 2013, 04:35:36 PM
Examples of what I meant by religion also damaging the insider physically or mentally is circumcision, Christians whipping themselves for sins, wearing lice filled sackcloth under their clothes, not to mention dormitory activities. I was not suggesting anything like demonisation of the outsider.

Quantative Research just published shows that complex societies were formed through intense warfare as the primary determining cause with high correlation. Previous quantative studies show environmental use was important too. We know from earlier sites such as gobekli tepe that the large scale social bond was already religious so it looks as though religious demonisation of the outsider was an important part of the mental outlook in the creation of complex societies. So When your Christian friend says that religion was important in creating society, he was probably right. The irony of it.

The scholar shown in this link would agree. Her study of the Eden myth leads to the same conclusion but in the real world. Not the fantasy bible world. She comes to some good conclusion including the importance of the Temple and why the Temple Prostitute was so honored and why we call money bread.

This is the main part I want to show but her complete series is an eye opener.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ9cvYB7Tes

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Foxy Freedom on September 25, 2013, 05:16:15 PM
Gia I have seen the whole series.

Neopagan that website looks a bit suspicious. Either they were all idiots who never understood science or it is a fake. Neither scenario is a good ad for their claims.

Hatter, it is very strange that anyone would think of atheism as a drug lifestyle. Anyone who values life as much as an atheist, would not want to throw it away on drugs.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 25, 2013, 05:27:36 PM
There are exception in various laws. No statement today can be all inclusive on such but nowhere do you se people advocating to stone fornicators or unruly children and only the most backwards Muslim communities are stoning gays.
Uganda.

With help from U. S. Christians.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMw2Zg_BVzw&feature=related

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Hatter23 on September 25, 2013, 05:28:41 PM

Hatter, it is very strange that anyone would think of atheism as a drug lifestyle. Anyone who values life as much as an atheist, would not want to throw it away on drugs.

Not reasonable at a logical, but easy to figure out as far as from an uneducated emotional viewpoint

Drugs equals hedonism and rebellion

Church equals  societal conformity and self denial

therefore

Drugs equal anti-church

Anti-church equal atheism

It is soft fuzzy sloppy level of reasoning...but I can see the chain of thought

Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 25, 2013, 05:30:28 PM
There are exception in various laws. No statement today can be all inclusive on such but nowhere do you se people advocating to stone fornicators or unruly children and only the most backwards Muslim communities are stoning gays.

Here's a link that unfortunately shows the stoning and witch-burning advocates are far from gone:http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/11/12/uganda-passes-kill-the-gays-bill/ (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/11/12/uganda-passes-kill-the-gays-bill/)

I hear you and I have used such links in the past. Please see the link above that shows a U S connection to the killing of gays.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 25, 2013, 05:34:53 PM
Atheists are just as stupid as religious people. Atheists will continuously argue with a person who they know are a wall.

;)

-Nam

I cannot gage intelligence between atheists and believers but I can say beyond any doubt that in terms of morality, atheists rule because Christians must develop a double set of standards to be able to stomach their genocidal son murdering God.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on September 25, 2013, 05:40:59 PM
I am interested this subject but I have not been able to find much. A separate discussion might be useful.

What i would like to know is how " well qualified intelligent people" can turn off their brains. Does anyone have experience of this? I once saw a physicist pick up a feather and say it was proof of design, he started talking like child.

I am also interested the kind of people who turn from atheism to religion and I would like to find some examples of how much they knew before they changed their minds.

That would be me.

I knew quite a bit I think and used to do a fair bit of arguing against believers.

Now I am what my atheist friends see as morally on their side and spirituaaly in the believers camp even though I do not quite believe as they do in terms of fantasy, miracles and magic. Those are all garbage to me.

Lend me your ear for my little story dear.

The Godhead I know in a nutshell.
I was a skeptic till the age of 39.
I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself an esoteric ecumenist and Gnostic Christian. Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake.

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of O T God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheep where Gnostic Christians are goats.
This is perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. He does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have tribal mentalities and poor morals.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to discard whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: MM747 on October 29, 2013, 08:40:08 AM
Earlier today I was listening to this point made by Bertrand Russell and as simple as the point is, I'm having a hard time squaring this idea. Is the idea simply that god has no reference for morality unless it was provided by someone else, which leads us down that familiar path. Or unless she commands it. So do I understand this correctly then, to mean therefore that her sense of morality is just as subjective as it is for you I. In which case, how could something subjective be proof of god?

"The point I am concerned with is that, if you are quite sure there is a difference between right and wrong, then you are in this situation: Is that difference due to God's fiat or is it not? If it is due to God's fiat, then for God himself there is no difference between right and wrong, and it is no longer a significant statement to say that God is good."

Bertrand Russell
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Anfauglir on October 29, 2013, 09:41:51 AM
Hi MM - welcome aboard!

I think you've understood Russel's point - that morality is either decided upon by god (in which case it is subjective), or god is following the rules of a morality that exists outside of god (in which case god becomes irrelevant for morality).

I'm not sure I understand your question though - "how could something subjective be proof of god?"  I think the point is just that: it can't be.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: MM747 on October 29, 2013, 05:39:53 PM
...

I'm not sure I understand your question though - "how could something subjective be proof of god?"  I think the point is just that: it can't be.

Hey Anfauglir, thanks for that.

I think the question arose more from my understanding that these two things could not in effect be one in the same. So, when you answered that they can't be, that was the same conclusion I was drawing. But I still felt like I was missing something. The entire premiss seemed almost to simple and straight forward to end on that.

I feel I hear this point being raised so often from Christian apologists that they must genuinely perceive that it is the be-all end-all in the argument for morality. And yet when I read through Russell's quote, it's as though with a flick of the wrist he is able to show how weak and illogical their argument actually is.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Nam on October 29, 2013, 05:43:41 PM
She? She? It's a woman? Is she hot?

-Nam
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: MM747 on October 29, 2013, 11:18:16 PM
I don't know...I've always just pictured a woman when I thought of parthenogenesis...of course god didn't 'give birth' to A & E in the literal sense so perhaps not. Or did she. As for 'the being created in his vs her image argument'...my in-laws get this wrong all the time so I've just learned to let it slide. But then again their English isn't as good as gods is.

Hot? Hard to say, I suppose its as subjective as morality. I'm thinking not quite morbidly obese but close enough to be considered beautiful in Mauritania.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Add Homonym on October 29, 2013, 11:39:52 PM

This is the main part I want to show but her complete series is an eye opener.


We will study Ezekiel 28, for perplexing information on Eden.
Title: Re: Is morality proof of god.
Post by: Greatest I am on October 30, 2013, 02:28:47 PM
Good luck with that.

Regards
DL