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Main Discussion Zone => General Religious Discussion => Topic started by: Ron Jeremy on August 27, 2013, 02:28:45 PM

Title: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: Ron Jeremy on August 27, 2013, 02:28:45 PM
I have numerous debates with a Christian family member on Facebook. He writes a blog and I feel duty bound to refute his stuff as other members of my family and friends read his stuff.

His latest posts are about how he believes the devil, demons and angels actively fight over his and everyone else's lives. I mean physically fight over our lives. To knock this back I've taken to replying to him in advance with flight details I'm about to take (I fly a lot) and challenge any supernatural deity to knock my airliner out the sky (I don't post them until about a day before I fly in case some human nut-case decides to try and bring me down!).

He's lately mentioned about how he's known people that have died due to demonic influence and knows people that have stuff regularly 'moved around' in their houses at night. I said I'd happily spend a night in any haunted house.

But this got me thinking. I'd consider myself an ardent atheist. Now to me, that means no supernatural stuff. No realm of the undead, no ghosts. I take this view because I cannot see how the undead could be powered, how they would interact with this life, etc. But there are many people that have claimed to have had an encounter with the living dead. Obviously this doesn't mean it actually happened, and I'm aware of several theories such as low frequency vibration causing feelings of dread. But I'm also aware that I don't know everything in the universe.

So, to atheists; would you have any problems staying a night alone in a reputedly haunted place, something along the lines of the Amityville house (yes, I know about allegations of faking, but some similar place!)? Would you happily challenge any supernatural deity to mess with your aircraft as you step on-board?

To theists; am I endangering myself by challenging god, the devil, demons or angels to knock my plane out the sky? Or for solo danger, to challenge them to knock me off my motorcycle on a particular date during a pre-notified route?
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: ParkingPlaces on August 27, 2013, 02:43:39 PM
I'd sleep in a "haunted house" without hesitation as long as I didn't actually have to swipe away spiderwebs and listen to creaking doors all night. Those are very real reasons to get less sleep than usual. But no, houses claimed as haunted to do not scare me. Nor does challenging god to knock me off while I'm on my next plane ride, or, if the gods want to, give me a heart attack as I stack firewood, which I will be doings in just a little while. Which would be a bit nicer since there would be no other victims, but that's never been an issue for the religious before, so it's not worth my time to suggest they be moral while they fuck up the world.

I don't think that there have been any angels and demons fighting over me. First of all, I'm not worth the effort, and secondly, if they have, it has been very casually, which means that they are more lackadaisical than I am. That does not bode well for the spirit world. I could probably be bought for under 100K, but nobody has ever offered. Which means not only are they not fighting over me, but that I'm also not worth a relatively paltry sum of money (in the spirit world economy).

And I'm the only one who moves things around in my house. Except for my car keys, but that is a known natural phenomenon.

The delusions of others are not contagious unless you are willing to let them be. When people sound crazy, pay attention to the realities they are avoiding, not the ones they are making up.



Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: Dante on August 27, 2013, 02:49:22 PM
Is it the angels or the demons causing my dryer to eat 1 sock of each pair I own?
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: ParkingPlaces on August 27, 2013, 03:12:20 PM
^^^ Neither. They eat their own. Socks are cannibals.

They smell too!  ;D
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: Nick on August 27, 2013, 03:34:22 PM
Move stuff around.  Cool.  Can they come to my place and move some stuff around.  A little light dusting would be ok also.
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: rev45 on August 27, 2013, 03:53:39 PM
My college is having a seminar on ghost hunting soon that I thought of attending if it didn't cost money to attend. 

I had a group of friends try to show me that their belief in spirits and demons were real. I wound up sitting in the middle of a field by myself for a half hour looking at the moon waiting for something to happen as my friends watched from a distance. I snuck a flashlight in a pocket just in case this was some prank. But after the half hour I was asked to wait I went back and told them nothing happened. No voices or sudden cold breezes or invisible force pulling on my shirt. 

 They told me that they did battle with demons on a regular basis but when I started asking questions I got a lot of stammering and uhhhhhs.  I asked why they used crappy mall quality swords when they had access to guns. If demons were so physically powerful why did they never have a casualty on their side or a demon corpse to show off.  I called them a bunch of assholes when they said how dangerous demons could be. My town could have been terrorized by beasts and they took it upon themselves to be the sole protectors. Why did they never notify the police or government or even the "professional" supernatural hunters?  They seemed to be the only few people who even knew these demons were around.  How convenient. 

  One of the guys is now a doctor. To me that's scarier than any demon. 

But angels, those guys would be scary
http://www.cracked.com/article_18757_5-things-you-wont-believe-arent-in-bible.html
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: Graybeard on August 27, 2013, 03:55:51 PM
I have numerous debates with a Christian family member on Facebook. He writes a blog and I feel duty bound to refute his stuff as other members of my family and friends read his stuff.

His latest posts are about how he believes the devil, demons and angels actively fight over his and everyone else's lives. I mean physically fight over our lives. [...]

Maybe this is a phase he is going through. Is he under some sort of stress? Some people, when they have no answers, leap at the first bullshit that comes to mind.

Quote
He's lately mentioned about how he's known people that have died due to demonic influence and knows people that have stuff regularly 'moved around' in their houses at night.

Coincidentally, a friend of mine, a highly qualified engineer who is know not to have a lot of imagination, told me a story about how he had had a supernatural experience involving a ghost. I explained what had happened but he ignored this and continued that he had seen a cleric who had advised that "rooms have memories." (I suspect the cleric had actually said, "Some people say that rooms have memories." so as to divert my friend away from this superstition.)

Quote
But this got me thinking. I'd consider myself an ardent atheist. Now to me, that means no supernatural stuff. No realm of the undead, no ghosts. I take this view because I cannot see how the undead could be powered, how they would interact with this life, etc.
:thumbsup:

Quote
But there are many people that have claimed to have had an encounter with the living dead. Obviously this doesn't mean it actually happened, and I'm aware of several theories such as low frequency vibration causing feelings of dread. But I'm also aware that I don't know everything in the universe.

Just above, you have correctly explained why there is no such thing as "the undead." Stick to that. The rest of the universe is so far away that they'd never get here.

Quote
So, to atheists; would you have any problems staying a night alone in a reputedly haunted place?

I've stayed in some strange places in my time. Why should being alone make any difference to the malevolent hordes of demons? I don't think that they only have to appear to people on their own - but then I haven't read their union rules recently. That said, being anywhere on your own for a long while with minimum sensory input does play with your mind. (Remember those tanks of brine in which people relaxed whilst white noise played in their ears? People had strange experiences in them.)

Quote
Would you happily challenge any supernatural deity to mess with your aircraft as you step on-board?

I remember being on a very small boat about a mile from land when a storm kicked off (a fishing trip). We had all had a bit to drink and so we called upon Neptune to destroy the boat. You can see by the fact I am typing that Neptune, like God, doesn't seem to respond to anything we mortals say.
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: Nick on August 27, 2013, 03:57:12 PM
Rev45, have you ever been on a snip hunt?
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: rev45 on August 27, 2013, 04:07:46 PM
I've been on both ends of a snipe hunt yes.  I thought about mentioning it in my earlier post but I hate typing so much on my phone.
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: Ron Jeremy on August 27, 2013, 04:26:59 PM
Good point about being alone Graybeard and having the mind play tricks. I'd already considered setting up a webcam covering the room and facing the entrance door if I ever get asked to stay in a ghost room, just to supplement my brain!
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: learnin on August 27, 2013, 04:48:14 PM
I probably mentioned this story once before but it is worth repeating.  Thirty years ago, a lady I worked with
kept telling me how her husband was encountering this UFO which followed him along a country road as he was
on his way to work.  This took place about 4 in the morning.  She said it followed him along a wooded, rural road.
She finally convinced me there was something to this story so my brother, sister, friend and myself went out there on a Friday evening in search of this UFO.

So, we went out to this area and parked about midnight waiting for the sucker to come along.  After several hours,
I looked to the East and saw this bright light hovering above the horizon.  As I stared at it, I swear I saw it coming closer and moving up and down and all around.  I screamed:  "There it is! It's coming toward us!"  My companions
jerked around to see this sight and they all became instant believers.  They all saw this bright light dancing around
in the sky.  My brother jumped into his pickup, turned it around, and flashed his lights on and off to this UFO so it
would make contact.  After five minutes of hysterics, we began to realize that it wasn't moving...it wasn't coming any closer.  It turned out to be Venus which had just arisen over the Horizon while we had been joking and talking.  My friend's husband, going to work at 4 in the morning, had seen this bright light through the trees and swore it was
moving along with him down the road.

Ghosts?  Moving objects in a house?  By god, I've never seen such things but I did see a UFO one night, thirty years ago, for a few minutes.  If you want demons badly enough, by god, you'll sense them.  If you want a ghost and haunted house, by god I guarantee you, you'll see something move on its own.......
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: Nick on August 27, 2013, 05:18:22 PM
I've been on both ends of a snipe hunt yes.  I thought about mentioning it in my earlier post but I hate typing so much on my phone.
We had rookies out there one night with butterfly nets.  Pretty funny.
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: ParkingPlaces on August 27, 2013, 06:27:01 PM
Is it the angels or the demons causing my dryer to eat 1 sock of each pair I own?

By the way, there's an app for that...

http://www.blacksocks.com/smartersocks_us.htm (http://www.blacksocks.com/smartersocks_us.htm)

Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: Boots on August 27, 2013, 07:53:30 PM
It's a well known fact that sensory input of an unknown nature will be interpreted by the individual as something familiar/expected.  If there's a strange noise in a house, what you think it is will depend largely on your state of mind/expectations.  Religious-minded folks might assume it's an angel, or the voice of gawd.  Monster hunters will likely suspect demons or other beasties.  Those of us who eschew superstition will probably assume a natural explanation, like the wind or the house settling.

Same thing happens with seeing holy images in trees, clouds, toast (Grilled Cheesus for example), when they're not really there.

I'd have no problem sleeping in a reputedly haunted house, and I'd laugh at whomever challenged me in the AM.  And I'd do it rudely and condescendingly.   :P
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: neopagan on August 27, 2013, 08:24:18 PM
Nearly 30 years ago, I spent a night in a local haunted house. It was a deserted old place in the woods - typical story - old guy who killed his family and such. Well known tales of ghost, but mostly a place high schoolers hung out to sip booze and swap DNA.

 Bottom line, nothing happened despite tipsy teens who wanted something to appear. I spent another night later with a chickenshit friend who heard a lot of sounds but still nothing real.

  Would sleep in any haunted house/etc any time. NOT trying to sound like a tough guy, it is just all BS IMHO
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: Nick on August 27, 2013, 08:34:01 PM
Tough words from a guy into lego porn.
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: lotanddaughters on August 27, 2013, 09:24:57 PM
So, to atheists; would you have any problems staying a night alone in a reputedly haunted place, something along the lines of the Amityville house (yes, I know about allegations of faking, but some similar place!)? Would you happily challenge any supernatural deity to mess with your aircraft as you step on-board?

To be honest with you, I am definitely an atheist and a non-believer of "dead apes who interact with this world".


But, for some reason, when I spend the night in a building(which is at least 99.9% of the time), the perceived age of the building does make a difference on how afraid I am of ghosts coming to attack or at least spook the fuck out of me. The best explanation that I can come up with is that we have a fear that is evolutionarily embedded in us to fear the dark and/or being alone. I will, even as a vocal atheist, tell you that if I spend the night alone in a creaky-ass house that was built in 1889, I will be significantly more afraid of ghosts than I will be spending the night alone in my house that was built in 1983.

Once again, I do not believe in ghosts in my rational everyday life. But, when I stayed with a friend who had a creaky-ass house that was built in the 1920's, my fear would consist of, I will guess, about 90% ghosts and 10% unwelcome imaginary physical intruders.

Like I said, the best explanation that I can come up with is that we have a fear that is evolutionarily embedded in us to fear the dark and/or being alone. Combine that primeval fear with our modern intelligence and imagination, and my guess is that you get a spooked ape like me who thinks he is rational.


Do any of you atheists here have any similar messed-up quirks that defy rationalism?
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: neopagan on August 27, 2013, 10:19:24 PM
Tough words from a guy into lego porn.

I live in Oklahoma - porn is illegal here. Gotta take what I can get.
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: natlegend on August 28, 2013, 12:36:03 AM
My take on ghosts - I don't believe they exist but they scare the hell outta me!
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: Anfauglir on August 28, 2013, 02:54:00 AM
Like I said, the best explanation that I can come up with is that we have a fear that is evolutionarily embedded in us to fear the dark and/or being alone. Combine that primeval fear with our modern intelligence and imagination, and my guess is that you get a spooked ape like me who thinks he is rational.

Do any of you atheists here have any similar messed-up quirks that defy rationalism?

I quite agree.  Intellectually, I know it's all baloney.  But that doesn't stop me from wanting the lights on after watching Paranormal Activity or whatever.
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: wright on August 28, 2013, 03:07:07 AM
^^^Likewise. It doesn't take much to inspire fear in me under certain conditions; just the memory of certain horror stories I read decades ago is enough to make me shudder. I have seen movies that had me covering my eyes while friends beside me yawned and made disparaging remarks (at my reaction as well as the film).

Rational thought is difficult enough while one is unstressed; when instinctual fight / flight is in play, it's a rare individual who can suppress those reactions and think. I'm not one of them.
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: naemhni on August 28, 2013, 05:44:31 AM
Tough words from a guy into lego porn.

I live in Oklahoma - porn is illegal here. Gotta take what I can get.

Really?  Wow, that's unfortunate.  If only there were some way that one could access porn that was stored in other locations...
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: Anfauglir on August 28, 2013, 07:58:53 AM
If only there were some way that one could access porn that was stored in other locations...

Trekkie Monster knows a song about that.....
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: screwtape on August 28, 2013, 02:09:34 PM
Do any of you atheists here have any similar messed-up quirks that defy rationalism?

Yeah.  All the time.  As you said, we are hard wired to perceive unexplained phenomenon as a threat and get freaked out. 
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: Nick on August 28, 2013, 02:22:01 PM
Like walking under a ladder or stepping on a crack?
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: screwtape on August 28, 2013, 02:29:10 PM
Nah, none of that stuff.  For me it manifests mainly as fear of the dark.  I get spooky feelings that *something* is behind me or waiting around a dark corner or creeping up just out of sight.
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: Betelnut on August 28, 2013, 06:18:00 PM
I love it--I would have thought all you (us) hardcore atheists would be strutting around all fearless in the face of a dark and spooky house.  I was nervous to say that, yeah, I would be spooked in that situation even though I know ghosts don't exist.

Glad to know that we (mostly) have some chinks in our armor. 
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: 12 Monkeys on August 28, 2013, 06:18:13 PM
Angels,Demons,Dragons,Leviathans,Unicorns,and the myriad of other myth-creatures in the Bible. how does he draw the line on invisible creatures?
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: anthony_retford on August 28, 2013, 09:00:48 PM
I have noticed that the two times I wrote about my and my wife's experiences with the "supernatural", not one person here has challenged me or remarked on them.

I wonder what that means?   
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: Nick on August 28, 2013, 09:19:56 PM
I have noticed that the two times I wrote about my and my wife's experiences with the "supernatural", not one person here has challenged me or remarked on them.

I wonder what that means?
We are waiting for the punch line.
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: ParkingPlaces on August 28, 2013, 09:38:00 PM
Nah, none of that stuff.  For me it manifests mainly as fear of the dark.  I get spooky feelings that *something* is behind me or waiting around a dark corner or creeping up just out of sight.


Ummm, that would be me. But I'm harmless...
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on August 28, 2013, 11:03:09 PM
Sometimes I have to remind myself there are no dark forces constantly screwing everything up for me.
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: Anfauglir on August 29, 2013, 02:34:23 AM
I have noticed that the two times I wrote about my and my wife's experiences with the "supernatural", not one person here has challenged me or remarked on them.

I wonder what that means?

Might mean that there was no evidence presented.  Might mean the experiences were unrepeatable.  Might mean that the people best qualified to analyse them missed the threads. 

This might be an opportune thread to repeat one of your stories.
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: Anfauglir on August 29, 2013, 02:38:53 AM
I love it--I would have thought all you (us) hardcore atheists would be strutting around all fearless in the face of a dark and spooky house.  I was nervous to say that, yeah, I would be spooked in that situation even though I know ghosts don't exist.

Glad to know that we (mostly) have some chinks in our armor.

It's a fine point though.  I would be creeped out, but I wouldn't be afraid of ghosts, if that makes sense?  The environment would make me feel uneasy because dark and creaky and lonely touch something in our caveman souls, but I wouldn't actually be thinking that Freddy Kruegar would be jumping out of mirrors at me.

So I WOULD stay the night in a haunted house.  I'd sit in a corner, with heavy duty torch and camcorder, and would walk out in the morning tired and stiff having spent a night on my nerves, but untroubled by any actual manifestations.
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: Anfauglir on August 29, 2013, 02:45:03 AM
This might be an opportune thread to repeat one of your stories.

Found two!

Many years ago I was to take a plane to the UK but some feeling was strong in me not to take that plane. I did anyway and nothing happened.

Indeed.  Sometimes weird feelings mean nothing.

My ex-wife and I went out one evening and I set the alarm. When we returned we went up to bed but I checked the second bedroom and found the bed there (a large heavy bed) had been rotated 90 degrees. The alarm showed no entry into the house while we were away. Twice the bed we slept in vibrated vigorously and there was no attachment that could have caused that. My ex-wife and I both experiened these shaking episodes when we in the bed.

Off the top of my head.....vibration from lorries or trains, maybe the house is on a localised fault.  Without more detail, very hard to comment.  How long did the shaking last for? 
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: Ron Jeremy on August 29, 2013, 03:41:49 AM
I have noticed that the two times I wrote about my and my wife's experiences with the "supernatural", not one person here has challenged me or remarked on them.

I wonder what that means?

Three weeks ago I put my favourite jacket in the closet and soon went away to work. Came back last week - no jacket. My wife hadn't touched it, my kids can't reach the peg. I searched everywhere, no jacket in the house. Poltergeist? Yesterday I was round my friends house and he handed me my jacket. Instantly I remembered I'd actually left it there one evening. But up until then I KNEW I'd hung it on a peg in my closet. I think the supernatural is a mix of natural occurrences and the human mind.

Early on in my kid's childhood I explained to them about nightmares and being scared in the dark. We talked about how their nightmares involved monsters; when they woke up in the night it was a monster in the dark that had made the noise. So I explained (scientist's research, I'm not claiming credit for this explanation!) that although we live in modern houses and play on iPhones, parts of our brains are still living in the primeval jungle. At night when we hear a noise, our brain's survival can't afford to take the chance that the noise is harmless; every time there's a creak or thump; it's a threat. And not just a little threat, it's something that'll kill us, hence the conjured image of a monster. That's how we survived so long. My kids brain tells them to stay very quiet and hide. When I hear a noise at night; my brain immediately paints a picture of someone in the house out to harm my wife or kids, my brain tells me to arm myself and go investigate. Although if I know I'm alone in the house my brain says 'stay very still and wait til the threat reveals itself'.

So being afraid as adults when alone in a dark unfamiliar place, I think our brain's survival kicks in. When we hear a noise and can't see what it is, our brain paints a picture of something very strong and alert, something we can't beat, like a demon or ghost, our brain is preparing ourselves to fight for our lives against an unseen strong enemy. We know there's no sabre tooth tigers or wolves (not in my part of the world anyway), there are no predators that can kill me, so what made that noise?

I walked back from the pub last night, my walk takes me through a very dark wood where I need my phone torch to see. Even though I'm as sure as can be that there are no gods or demons, when I'm walking through that wood my primitive brain is shouting 'Beware Monsters!'
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: neopagan on August 29, 2013, 07:11:52 AM
As a kid, I used to take our trash cans down our long driveway at night to the curb for pickup in the early morning We lived in a wooded area and for some reason I started conjuring this image of two wolves loping across the yard after me only to crash into the door snarling as I safely slipped into the house. My own invented idea would freak me out some, even though I would walk a steady pace and never turn around to look. It was my own "invented" scenario, but I would still go inside with my heart racing quite often.   I still think of it if I ever take the trash out in the dark.
And no, an old Cherokee did not tell me this story...
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: Boots on August 29, 2013, 07:25:03 AM
And no, an old Cherokee did not tell me this story...

Good thing, because if he found you told it, he might Sioux you!!  HAW HAW HAW HAW
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: epidemic on August 29, 2013, 07:39:51 AM
it is funny but I was resisting the urge to speak here.  I don't believe in ghosts, boogiemen, zombies, vampires, angels, deamons...  But on occasion I can get creeped out in an empty house or when walking in the dark through the woods. 

I am embarrased on occasion by this,  the idea of sleeping in a grave yard or a house with multiple murders and tales of ghosts would make me feel uncomfortable.  My rational brain says no problem, and I could probably overcome the fear, but it would still be there in the pit of my stomach.

my rational brain says I have never seen anything supernatural event, I know no one who has had an unquestionable supernatural experience.  Lots of claims that can be relegated to the realm of imagination and misinterpretation.  Yet still I get creeped out

Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: Anfauglir on August 29, 2013, 07:46:54 AM
And no, an old Cherokee did not tell me this story...

Good thing, because if he found you told it, he might Sioux you!!  HAW HAW HAW HAW

It was a good story, but not Apache on Anthony's.....
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: Hatter23 on August 29, 2013, 08:07:38 AM
On the original post, I think you are making a minor error.

What you are is a skeptic. So am I.

Atheism, IMO, is just a subset of skepticism. Skeptical on the concept "A god or gods exist."
Angels and Demons, as a concept, seem to be, at least in Western culture, dependent on a god or gods existence...and therefore are covered under atheism.

Ghosts do not have the same level of cultural dependency.

Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: screwtape on August 29, 2013, 09:09:25 AM
This might be an opportune thread to repeat one of your stories.

anthony's stories:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,19411.msg429364.html#msg429364
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,7335.msg166933.html#msg166933
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,9252.msg228149.html#msg228149
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,14412.msg318778.html#msg318778

These appear to be retellings of the same event.  Was there a second one, anthony?  If so, my search did not find it.

What kind of response would you like?  I do not believe it was supernatural.  I believe there was a reasonable, natural explanation.  But I do not know what it is, nor do I think I will ever know.  It was an event that took place 30 years ago, and obviously not even you were able to record all the variables. 
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: Ron Jeremy on August 29, 2013, 11:30:28 AM
On the original post, I think you are making a minor error.

What you are is a skeptic. So am I.

Atheism, IMO, is just a subset of skepticism. Skeptical on the concept "A god or gods exist."
Angels and Demons, as a concept, seem to be, at least in Western culture, dependent on a god or gods existence...and therefore are covered under atheism.

Ghosts do not have the same level of cultural dependency.

Just to make my position clear; I have no belief in gods, demons, angels or ghosts. I'd be quite happy to spend a night in a 'haunted' house as long as I could bring a couple of bits like my laptop, webcam, torch, etc to combat my mind playing tricks on me.

I also have no problem challenging any supernatural being to knock my plane out the sky as I have no belief in them. In fact I'm flying next week, I'll happily post my flight details an hour before departure (even though any demon should be able to read my emails).

But that doesn't stop me thinking about the supernatural monster that's stalking me as I walk through the woods in the dead of night!
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: ParkingPlaces on August 29, 2013, 11:49:28 AM
I live in the woods. I go out in them in the dark quite a lot. Without a flashlight. I know that I could encounter the following inconvenient animals:

Skunks
Porcupines
Moose
Very rarely, bears
Far more rarely, cougars.
On warms nights, I guess I could encounter a rattlesnake. Not likely, however.
There are coyotes, wolves and foxes. None of them seem to bother people But I guess I should put down wolf attacks, though very rare as well, are possible.

I am much more likely to trip over a fallen branch or step in a hole and twist my ankle, though. Or poke my eye out on a twig in the dark.

If I lived in Florida, I would not be quite so cavalier. Pythons and such, you know. And gators. And many more snakes. Plus, you know, the native population. I challenge you to find a scarier group of retirees.

The stuff coming out of the mouth of Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck scares me much more than anything supernatural. So I guess it is the subnatural that worries me in at night.
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: Dante on August 29, 2013, 12:32:16 PM
What strikes me as true, even tho I read it in an old comic book, is the fear of unexpected "life", such as ghosts, or reaching to scratch an itch only to find a leech attached. Both of which, I'm sure, are evolutionary survival responses, as outlined by others. Living on the savannah, things that go bump in the night will eat you.

Like PP, I've no problem traipsing through the woods at night fearing anything, but obviously wary of wild predators. Ghosts or demons? Nope, they don't exist.

Haunted houses? Bring it. I've seen no evidence of such things.

That said, yes, I can and have creeped myself out, most usually when climbing stairs from a dark basement, for some unknown reason. Something's sneaking up behind me! Obviously psychological, but I don't know why.

But, since I'm convinced there is no such thing as a supernatural being, anything I may come across must be of the natural world. And, if it bleeds, I can kill it.
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: screwtape on August 29, 2013, 03:24:28 PM
I had an apartment one time that was a converted attic.  It was very nice.  One big open space.  But near the end where the bed was, there was a staircase down to the apartment below.  It terminated in a door which was locked.  I had a nightmare that a nosferatu[1] like goblin had come up those stairs and was approaching me. 

After I awoke I just could not shake the feeling and for the remaining time I lived there I had a feeling of dread every time I walked past the stairs, particularly at night.  I could not turn my back on them, because if I did, I just knew something was coming to get me.


 1. creepiest, most terrifying vampire EVER
http://opheliasfiction.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/nosferatu.jpeg (http://opheliasfiction.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/nosferatu.jpeg)
Title: Re: Challenging Angels & Demons
Post by: neopagan on August 29, 2013, 03:34:49 PM
^^^ No wonder you changed your avatar to C&H... much cuddlier