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Main Discussion Zone => General Religious Discussion => Topic started by: essgeeskee on July 03, 2013, 03:03:55 AM

Title: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: essgeeskee on July 03, 2013, 03:03:55 AM
Not sure if this has been brought up here, but what does anyone make of these 2 Bible verses?

As stated in Psalms 14:1, all Atheist are fools:
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."

Matthew 5:22 states:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

So one verse says that Atheist are fools and another verse says that if a someone calls another person a fool, they are in danger of going to hell.

I pointed this out to a Christian who was referring to Atheist as fools in a debate and his response after seeing what Jesus supposedly said in Matthew 5:22 was like, "...and? So what!"

When I used to consider myself to be a Christian, I wonder if I would have put the blinders on just as the guy previously mentioned did, or would I have seen the contradiction right away.

I'm puzzled as to how I could have ever believed any of this stuff!
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: William on July 03, 2013, 03:48:44 AM
Quote
As stated in Psalms 14:1, all Atheist are fools:
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."
Well then here is a MEGA fool in that case - Professor Fred Hollows (and his foundation since his passing) have cured thousands of blind people in the name of secular goodness instead of to the eternal glory of 'RLard'.   How abominable!?  :o  What a wasted opportunity!?  :o
(http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2008/05/26/fredhollows_wideweb__470x318,2.jpg)

Quote
Matthew 5:22 states:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."
The bit that says "without a cause" is the perfect escape clause  &)
 
I'm puzzled as to how I could have ever believed any of this stuff!
You're forgiven brother, absolved of all previous God-given stupidity - me too  ;D
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: Nick on July 03, 2013, 07:11:30 AM
Another way to cover your ass when the validity of a Sky Daddy is brought up.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: KingofBashan on July 03, 2013, 11:06:15 PM
Psalms 14:1, etc...
Matthew 5:22, etc...

I'm puzzled as to how I could have ever believed any of this stuff!

Here is the Matthew 5 quote in full context (you are probably familiar with it):

Quote
Do not think I came to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it...

You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

First notice Jesus is making a statement about the Jewish law.
Second notice he addresses one law, the 6th commandment, You shall not murder.
Third notice the quote has words not in the original old testament text, Whoever murders will be liable to judgment.

Taken together, we can conclude Jesus is clarifying some rabbinic misunderstanding about the law. Jesus has not come to abolish it, but to fulfill it, ie, to uphold it in its correct interpretation (and to obey it). In this case, the Jews had only partially understood the command. Jesus now upholds its full meaning. Not only is murder an outward act of physically taking a life. Murder can be an inward act of malice. Anger and hate (here expressed as a verbal attack on another human being, as in, "you fool!") violates God's law as much as a knife attack.

Psalm 14 is not a verbal attack from a heart of malice. It is an observation intended to express truth - and as the old saying goes, sometimes the truth hurts. The psalmist is not tearing down, but stating the obvious with the intention of possibly making an atheist reconsider their poor and gravely misinformed assessment of reality.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: Astreja on July 03, 2013, 11:11:44 PM
The psalmist is not tearing down, but stating the obvious with the intention of possibly making an atheist reconsider their poor and gravely misinformed assessment of reality.

So inform us, KoB.  Pray for your god to materialize in My study so that I can meet it personally.  I am no longer taking any representations from human middlemen, books, or tricks of the imagination and will only be satisfied with a personal physical encounter.  Until that happens, My reality clearly says "Nope, no evidence of Biblegod here."
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: essgeeskee on July 04, 2013, 12:58:16 AM
Do not think I came to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it...

In my opinion, your quote above is another contradiction; Matthew 5:17

I always hear Christians point out that many of the horrific events people hear of in the old testament no longer apply because Jesus brought forth a new law. By Jesus supposedly stating that he came to fulfill the old law as shown above in Matthew 5:17, it seems to me that Jesus would probably identify himself with fundamental Christians as opposed to moderate Christians.

I've also heard that many biblical scholars question the validity of the book of Matthew anyway because it appears to have been copied directly from the book of Mark. The host Matt from the Atheist Experience did a really good video on this. He actually read the liner notes on the book of Matthew right from the NIV Bible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhLUF1leMF0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: KingofBashan on July 06, 2013, 07:58:32 AM

I've also heard that many biblical scholars question the validity of the book of Matthew anyway because it appears to have been copied directly from the book of Mark. The host Matt from the Atheist Experience did a really good video on this. He actually read the liner notes on the book of Matthew right from the NIV Bible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhLUF1leMF0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Interesting video. It is frustrating to see how disparaging the NIV has become to the orthodox faith.

If you are interested in a Christian's perspective on skepticism and textual variants I would recommend this link:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=630131930293 (http://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=630131930293)

This a single lesson in a greater series:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?seriesOnly=true&currSection=sermonstopic&sourceid=gbcnet&keyword=2013+GCCM&keyworddesc=2013+GCCM (http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?seriesOnly=true&currSection=sermonstopic&sourceid=gbcnet&keyword=2013+GCCM&keyworddesc=2013+GCCM)

If you are interested in a counter perspective to the Mark theory and the legitimacy of Matthew, you may be interested in this:
http://grbcav.org/2011/11/dating-the-gospel-of-matthew-in-relation-to-the-other-synoptics/ (http://grbcav.org/2011/11/dating-the-gospel-of-matthew-in-relation-to-the-other-synoptics/)
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: KingofBashan on July 06, 2013, 08:09:17 AM
  I am no longer taking any representations from human middlemen, books, or tricks of the imagination and will only be satisfied with a personal physical encounter.  Until that happens, My reality clearly says "Nope, no evidence of Biblegod here."

Here is a train of thought to chew on. I am genuinely interested in your thoughts if you consider the following.

If there is a god (I'm speaking generically, any divine being), do you think he would be approachable? By definition isn't the concept of divinity a being with such properties as transcendence, absolute actuality, immutability, etc?

By definition of divinity, you cannot have a physical encounter with God. Any encounter would be, by necessity, mediated.  How can the creature approach the creator? But the creator can utilize the created to express itself, ie via mediation.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: William on July 06, 2013, 08:26:01 AM
By definition of divinity, you cannot have a physical encounter with God. Any encounter would be, by necessity, mediated. 

Wrong.

Yahweh told Noah to build an Ark.
Yahweh spoke directly to Moses - a lot.
Jephthah conversed directly with God about battle tactics to kill God's enemies.

Jesus, while flying around like Superman, appeared to a bunch of people, after He pulled off His resurrection stunt.

Allah spoke to Mohammed - a lot.

Ganesha resides in the first chakra - at the base of your spine.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: mrbiscoop on July 06, 2013, 08:29:51 AM
  I am no longer taking any representations from human middlemen, books, or tricks of the imagination and will only be satisfied with a personal physical encounter.  Until that happens, My reality clearly says "Nope, no evidence of Biblegod here."

Here is a train of thought to chew on. I am genuinely interested in your thoughts if you consider the following.

If there is a god (I'm speaking generically, any divine being), do you think he would be approachable? By definition isn't the concept of divinity a being with such properties as transcendence, absolute actuality, immutability, etc?

By definition of divinity, you cannot have a physical encounter with God. Any encounter would be, by necessity, mediated.  How can the creature approach the creator? But the creator can utilize the created to express itself, ie via mediation.

  Doesn't sound very omnipotent to me.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: shnozzola on July 06, 2013, 08:50:47 AM
King,
        If there is a divine being, it may indeed be an exact, definable thing, that never changes.  It may never be approachable, and it may have indeed created everything in the universe.

   It may also be an undefinable changing thing that can be as approachable or unapproachable as it wants.  There are as many definitions for this thing as there are people.

   I don't care.  I am not so much interested in which human beings on the third planet in our solar system are right.  I am interested in stopping the horrible things the closed-minded religious do, being absolutely convinced their views are correct.  I am interested in having people think about things and realize their views may be mistaken, and to respect the views of others.  My agnostic atheist views may be wrong, I have no way to know for certain - but that's not what is important - what is important is how I treat the Muslims and Christians and Buddhists and witches and Sikhs and Jews and the atheists, and the flying spaghetti monster worshipers, etc.  What is important is how we all treat each other.  Historically a convinced belief in a deity gets in the way of that.  I wish it wasn't true.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: nogodsforme on July 06, 2013, 02:29:16 PM
  I am no longer taking any representations from human middlemen, books, or tricks of the imagination and will only be satisfied with a personal physical encounter.  Until that happens, My reality clearly says "Nope, no evidence of Biblegod here."

Here is a train of thought to chew on. I am genuinely interested in your thoughts if you consider the following.

If there is a god (I'm speaking generically, any divine being), do you think he would be approachable? By definition isn't the concept of divinity a being with such properties as transcendence, absolute actuality, immutability, etc?

By definition of divinity, you cannot have a physical encounter with God. Any encounter would be, by necessity, mediated.  How can the creature approach the creator? But the creator can utilize the created to express itself, ie via mediation.
Here are my thoughts on that;

I have lived with polytheistic animists in Africa and Latin America. These people (except the ones converted by Mormon, JW or evangelical missionaries) do have actual physical encounters with their gods. Even the Catholic-influenced people do. They believe that the gods interact with humans all the time. They don't have to rely on stuff written down thousands of years ago. They have real contacts with their dieties every day.  The gods talk to them, appear to them, give them advice, give people magic powers, possess their bodies, leave magic signs, protect people and curse their enemies, punish wickedness.  Just like the gods in pretty much every ancient sacred text, including the bible.

I told them that the gods in the US are not that active and don't generally do all those things. They have to be "mediated" as you put it. The wise old people I talked to nodded with understanding. They said, "That is because your religions are 'cold'. Our religions are 'hot'." They explained that 'cold religions' are dead religions with dead gods that only exist in stories in books. 'Hot religions' have living gods that are like real people.

The OT clearly describes a 'hot' religion. The Catholic faith is still pretty 'hot' as far as traditional people in third world countries are concerned-- Santeria, Vodun, etc. Modern Protestant Christianity, however, has cooled off.

How is it that modern monotheistic religions, although dead and 'cold', still manage to convince people that they are real?
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: Graybeard on July 06, 2013, 03:59:22 PM
Not sure if this has been brought up here, but what does anyone make of these 2 Bible verses?

As stated in Psalms 14:1, all Atheist are fools:
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."

Matthew 5:22 states:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

To deny God is the second worst thing you can do.

I have highlighted the relevant words.
Quote
I'm puzzled as to how I could have ever believed any of this stuff!

You will see that the Bible is the template for all repressive regimes. You are required to obey without question and yet it is unclear as to what you should obey.

God Himself says that regardless of what you do on earth, you are at His Mercy on Judgment Day.

Psalms 14:1 dismisses anyone who disagrees, or thinks for themselves as an idiot.
Matthew 5:22 attempts to stop people quarrelling.

They are not related.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: Astreja on July 06, 2013, 11:56:00 PM
Here is a train of thought to chew on. I am genuinely interested in your thoughts if you consider the following.

If there is a god (I'm speaking generically, any divine being), do you think he would be approachable? By definition isn't the concept of divinity a being with such properties as transcendence, absolute actuality, immutability, etc?

I don't think that divinity has to be defined that way.  There are many examples of approachable gods in world mythology.  The Greek pantheon in particular is notable for many interactions with humans, and even the god of the Old Testament had direct communication with Adam & Eve and with Moses.  I tend to think that yes, a god (or at very least, an avatar representing some aspects of a god)  can be approachable.

Quote
By definition of divinity, you cannot have a physical encounter with God. Any encounter would be, by necessity, mediated.  How can the creature approach the creator? But the creator can utilize the created to express itself, ie via mediation.

Interesting hypothesis, but what enables a mediator to have divine contact?  What qualities does it possess that are off-limits to regular humans?
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 08, 2013, 01:55:40 PM
Not sure if this has been brought up here, but what does anyone make of these 2 Bible verses?

As stated in Psalms 14:1, all Atheist are fools:
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."

Matthew 5:22 states:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

So one verse says that Atheist are fools and another verse says that if a someone calls another person a fool, they are in danger of going to hell.

I pointed this out to a Christian who was referring to Atheist as fools in a debate and his response after seeing what Jesus supposedly said in Matthew 5:22 was like, "...and? So what!"

When I used to consider myself to be a Christian, I wonder if I would have put the blinders on just as the guy previously mentioned did, or would I have seen the contradiction right away.

I'm puzzled as to how I could have ever believed any of this stuff!

It's not obvious, but the first is actually referring to all of mankind.  Other passages back up the idea that all are sinners.   Given that we are all fools, it is very bad to call others a fool, implying that the first passage is wrong and that we are better then "them".
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: One Above All on July 08, 2013, 02:00:18 PM
<snip>
implying that the first passage is wrong
<snip>

Did you just say the Bible is wrong?
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: Azdgari on July 08, 2013, 02:01:13 PM
No.  He said that in the situation he's describing, someone else would be calling the passage wrong.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: neopagan on July 08, 2013, 03:42:20 PM
FWIW, these passages always puzzled me in my "believer" days (my six month deconversion anniv thi  month).. and none of the apologetic attempts to explain the contradiction away ever satisfied.

Furthermore, the whole idea that jeezus showed up (thousands of years later) to clarify/enhance/reiterate the law always bothered me too.  What that implied was... the so-called omnimax passed out his laws in the OT and had his personal priests and scribes write all of it down and it was still totally messed up and people were confused and misinterpreting it!

What about the hordes of goat herders who lived and died in between omnimax's progressive revelations who had it all wrong or needed skydaddy jr. to clarify the old law?  Some poor slob died a "fool" because he gave up trying to make sense of it all... and we know what a bangup job JHC did of straightening it all out.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 08, 2013, 04:08:52 PM
FWIW, these passages always puzzled me in my "believer" days (my six month deconversion anniv thi  month).. and none of the apologetic attempts to explain the contradiction away ever satisfied.

Furthermore, the whole idea that jeezus showed up (thousands of years later) to clarify/enhance/reiterate the law always bothered me too.  What that implied was... the so-called omnimax passed out his laws in the OT and had his personal priests and scribes write all of it down and it was still totally messed up and people were confused and misinterpreting it!

What about the hordes of goat herders who lived and died in between omnimax's progressive revelations who had it all wrong or needed skydaddy jr. to clarify the old law?  Some poor slob died a "fool" because he gave up trying to make sense of it all... and we know what a bangup job JHC did of straightening it all out.

All are fools and have rejected the father from their hearts. 
The Jews represent = everyone.  Lucky them. 
Jesus came from the Jews = Jesus came from humanity.
God, in the form of Jesus died for all.

According to the scriptures, the written story is relevant, but not required reading.

 http://biblehub.com/romans/1-20.htm
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: nogodsforme on July 08, 2013, 04:20:23 PM
Someone alone on an island would never come up with anything like the stories in the bible. (That's why different cultures have completely different religions.) How are people supposed to know this stuff if they don't read the bible and don't talk to anyone else who has read the bible? Where else do these ideas come from?
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 08, 2013, 04:21:35 PM
Someone alone on an island would never come up with anything like the stories in the bible. (That's why different cultures have completely different religions.) How are people supposed to know this stuff if they don't read the bible and don't talk to anyone else who has read the bible? Where else do these ideas come from?

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."   
http://biblehub.com/romans/1-20.htm
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: nogodsforme on July 08, 2013, 04:22:59 PM
Not an answer to my question. Just a rationalization.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: neopagan on July 08, 2013, 04:33:25 PM
Someone alone on an island would never come up with anything like the stories in the bible. (That's why different cultures have completely different religions.) How are people supposed to know this stuff if they don't read the bible and don't talk to anyone else who has read the bible? Where else do these ideas come from?

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."   
http://biblehub.com/romans/1-20.htm

are you serious?  invisible qualities clearly seen??????
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 08, 2013, 04:35:52 PM

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."   
http://biblehub.com/romans/1-20.htm

are you serious?  invisible qualities clearly seen??????
[/quote]

I agree.  But that is what the scriptures have always said, the Bible is not required reading.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: jdawg70 on July 08, 2013, 04:40:40 PM

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."   
http://biblehub.com/romans/1-20.htm

are you serious?  invisible qualities clearly seen??????

I agree.  But that is what the scriptures have always said, the Bible is not required reading.
[/quote]
Articulate exactly what it is you agree with.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: magicmiles on July 08, 2013, 04:41:57 PM

are you serious?  invisible qualities clearly seen??????

Lets just isolate part of the verse to try and make nonsense of it, shall we? What does the rest of the verse say?

This is contemptible, Neo Pagan.

Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 08, 2013, 04:43:16 PM

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."   
http://biblehub.com/romans/1-20.htm

are you serious?  invisible qualities clearly seen??????

I agree.  But that is what the scriptures have always said, the Bible is not required reading.
Articulate exactly what it is you agree with.

All six words.  But only 2 question marks.  More is not correct.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: Truth OT on July 08, 2013, 04:49:15 PM
I'm puzzled as to how I could have ever believed any of this stuff!

AS human beings, we all suffer from a condition I call "Pro-Me-Ism". Us promeistic folks tend to seek to relax in our our norms, perspectives, and traditions rather than first looking out at the natural world critically before we allow these things to be established as a part of who we are. When something has become a part of us, no matter how silly it may be or who may dare to stand against it, our initial inclination is usually to defend ourselve, our positions, and in turn our beliefs. We often engage is a rationalization process that others can see as ridiculous while we are blinded to that fact by our own convictions.

We a way we are all fools that have a tendency to overvalue the perspective of our 'hearts'. The fool has said in his heart numerous things that are often not based in reality whether it's based on religion, our desire tosee ourselves in a different light than reality illustrates, or our seemingly innate desire to be valued.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: jdawg70 on July 08, 2013, 05:07:57 PM

are you serious?  invisible qualities clearly seen??????

Lets just isolate part of the verse to try and make nonsense of it, shall we? What does the rest of the verse say?

This is contemptible, Neo Pagan.
In neopagan's defense, he was replying to SkyWriting's post that quotes that, and only that, verse as an answer.  If Sky wanted more context to be considered, he should have been more explicit.

Besides, the context of the the verse doesn't really help clarify much insofar as answering nogodforme's question to Sky.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: jdawg70 on July 08, 2013, 05:09:15 PM
I agree.  But that is what the scriptures have always said, the Bible is not required reading.
Articulate exactly what it is you agree with.

All six words.  But only 2 question marks.  More is not correct.
I'm not all that bright.  Could you type what six words you are talking about and we can go from there?
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: neopagan on July 08, 2013, 07:26:10 PM
Once we veer off into invisible qualities clearly seen... well, we are back to the circular illogic of the OP - contemptible or not. 
Besides, my invisible god has completely different attributes than thanthe god of some fellow in Borneo, a gal in China and my leprechaun.  So that cited verse helped me in no way, even though I heard it and quoted it for years as a believer (former, thank Mithra) and never bothered to flesh it out.

smite virginity torn asunder  :laugh:
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: DumpsterFire on July 08, 2013, 09:56:21 PM
"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."   
So, if I'm following it right, this verse essentially says that the proof of god lies in the fact that the universe exists. By this rationale, wouldn't it be correct to say that rainbows are proof that leprechauns exist?
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: Astreja on July 08, 2013, 10:11:20 PM
So, if I'm following it right, this verse essentially says that the proof of god lies in the fact that the universe exists. By this rationale, wouldn't it be correct to say that rainbows are proof that leprechauns exist?

Or Asgard (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bifr%C3%B6st").
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: Jstwebbrowsing on July 09, 2013, 12:10:03 AM
"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."   
So, if I'm following it right, this verse essentially says that the proof of god lies in the fact that the universe exists. By this rationale, wouldn't it be correct to say that rainbows are proof that leprechauns exist?

Also it is saying that his personality can be seen in his creation.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: Azdgari on July 09, 2013, 12:10:53 AM
Just like the specific creator-leprechaun's personality can be seen in each rainbow.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: Jstwebbrowsing on July 09, 2013, 12:30:13 AM
Just like the specific creator-leprechaun's personality can be seen in each rainbow.

It's more like how your personality can be seen in your posts.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: nogodsforme on July 09, 2013, 12:55:48 AM
So, if I'm following it right, this verse essentially says that the proof of god lies in the fact that the universe exists. By this rationale, wouldn't it be correct to say that rainbows are proof that leprechauns exist?

Or Asgard (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bifr%C3%B6st").

Thor is proof that Asgard exists.....he had to come from somewhere, right?
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: Azdgari on July 09, 2013, 09:40:38 AM
It's more like how your personality can be seen in your posts.

So what we can see from "creation" is that Yaweh really loves black holes and doesn't care much about living things.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: nogodsforme on July 09, 2013, 03:02:10 PM
It's more like how your personality can be seen in your posts.

So what we can see from "creation" is that Yaweh really loves black holes and doesn't care much about living things.

But he really, really likes beetles, bacteria, invasive plant species and naked mole rats. Humans, not so much. And he despises mountain gorillas, panda bears and dodo birds. Hates their guts. :P
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: Astreja on July 10, 2013, 12:04:38 AM
Thor is proof that Asgard exists.....he had to come from somewhere, right?

Don't remind Me... I used to babysit Thor.

"No, no... Put down the pots and pans...

"...Not on the dog!" *clatter* *thump* *sad puppy noises*   :o
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 10, 2013, 08:04:42 AM
"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."   
So, if I'm following it right, this verse essentially says that the proof of god lies in the fact that the universe exists. By this rationale, wouldn't it be correct to say that rainbows are proof that leprechauns exist?

If that is in their faith, then that is part of the worldview leprechaunists have. 
I wouldn't know.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 10, 2013, 08:22:33 AM

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."   
http://biblehub.com/romans/1-20.htm

are you serious?  invisible qualities clearly seen??????

I agree.  It's hard to cipher how invisible things can be "clearly seen."
So, let's assume, for the sake of understanding, that it means what it says.

So what is "clearly seen":

Infinite complexity-The closer you look, the more there is to see.
Big - like no-end-in-sight big.
Delicate - every big thing we see is made of millions of small parts.
Reliable - not much changes at all.

So that passage is making clear that what God has created is not God.
But it reflects his divine nature.   So our reality is proof enough of God.
Those who don't have a Bible are not off the playing field. Because
of Creation, there is no excuse for not knowing God. 


 
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: John 3 16 on July 10, 2013, 08:39:51 AM
So, if I'm following it right, this verse essentially says that the proof of god lies in the fact that the universe exists. By this rationale, wouldn't it be correct to say that rainbows are proof that leprechauns exist?
We know how rainbows are formed, but we only have theories about the universe how it came into existence.

So which is more rational and honest conclusion?

a) I don't know if there is a creator of the universe because we don't have evidence on how the universe was formed or came into existence.

b) I don't know how universe was formed or created but I know there is no creator god.

Are you still teaching your kids theories as if they were facts?
Don't you think it is another way of indoctrination?
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: Truth OT on July 10, 2013, 09:57:56 AM
So which is more rational and honest conclusion?

a) I don't know if there is a creator of the universe because we don't have evidence on how the universe was formed or came into existence.

b) I don't know how universe was formed or created but I know there is no creator god.

Are you still teaching your kids theories as if they were facts?
Don't you think it is another way of indoctrination?

Why assume a single creator if you're going to play that card? Additionally, what's with the assumption that the universe was created? That's akin to assuming that everything that is had to be created and if you go down that slippery slope then the question of what created the universe's creator needs to be addressed followed by what created that creator, and so on and so forth.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: neopagan on July 10, 2013, 10:02:45 AM

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."   
http://biblehub.com/romans/1-20.htm

are you serious?  invisible qualities clearly seen??????

I agree.  It's hard to cipher how invisible things can be "clearly seen."
So, let's assume, for the sake of understanding, that it means what it says.

So what is "clearly seen":

Infinite complexity-The closer you look, the more there is to see.
Big - like no-end-in-sight big.
Delicate - every big thing we see is made of millions of small parts.
Reliable - not much changes at all.

So that passage is making clear that what God has created is not God.
But it reflects his divine nature.   So our reality is proof enough of God.
Those who don't have a Bible are not off the playing field. Because
of Creation, there is no excuse for not knowing God.

all it makes clear to me is some ancient folks claimed god is there an  did what they attribute  to him/them.
what makes any of it divine?  some  kid was run over here  the other day at a 4th of july parade by his dad - drive  of  the float. we who saw that witnessed nothing divine or nothing of his divine nature. bu  let me guess, thats sin right? not part of his creation?
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: John 3 16 on July 10, 2013, 10:35:06 AM
Why assume a single creator if you're going to play that card?
It still doesn't matter if there is single god or gods in order to play this card.

Quote
Additionally, what's with the assumption that the universe was created?
It doesn't matter if the universe was created or ever existed.

My point is "No one knows or has evidence on either case" then why settle your conclusion as "there is no god?" instead of "I don't know"

Quote
what created the universe's creator needs to be addressed followed by what created that creator, and so on and so forth.
Logically, the Creator can not be created.

You are asking me to show you a square circle.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: Azdgari on July 10, 2013, 10:43:34 AM
Logically, the Creator can not be created.

You are asking me to show you a square circle.

This is why we humans cannot possibly create machines that create other machines:  Because it is logically impossible for a creator to have been itself created!

Wait...you didn't think this one through did you?
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: Truth OT on July 10, 2013, 11:35:27 AM
It doesn't matter if the universe was created or ever existed.

My point is "No one knows or has evidence on either case" then why settle your conclusion as "there is no god?" instead of "I don't know

It doesn't matter if the universe was created or not, really?

As far as evidence and what it supports, we disagree mainly because of the definition(s) that surround the term "God". Based on reality and comparing reality with the prevailing religious definitions of God it is pretty safe to say that such a being is beyond highly unlikely.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: jaimehlers on July 10, 2013, 12:38:08 PM
Logically, the Creator can not be created.

You are asking me to show you a square circle.
Logic is only as valid as its premise.  There's a difference - a big, big difference - between stating that a square can not be a circle because of their geometric properties, and saying that a creator cannot itself be created.  We can specifically determine the properties of a circle and a square and show that those properties are mutually exclusive; we cannot determine the properties of this Creator of yours in order to show that they are mutually exclusive with the properties of having been created by something else.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: Astreja on July 10, 2013, 12:43:41 PM
My point is "No one knows or has evidence on either case" then why settle your conclusion as "there is no god" instead of "I don't know"?

I don't assert definitively "There is no god."

I do, however, know enough about biology, chemistry and physics to believe that a naturalistic explanation is somewhat more plausible than a creator god.  An entity of immense power that tinkers with minutiae such as the subatomic particles of the Standard Model?  That's akin to attempting to paint the Mona Lisa on a grain of sand while wearing boxing gloves.  (Doesn't help that said being, for all its purported power, doesn't leave any energy traces on the universe either.)
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: Graybeard on July 10, 2013, 01:26:56 PM

are you serious?  invisible qualities clearly seen??????

Lets just isolate part of the verse to try and make nonsense of it, shall we? What does the rest of the verse say?

This is contemptible, Neo Pagan.
Paul was weird. He had one foot in a sort of innocent reality and the other in a land of invisible beings who did mysterious things:

Ro:1:14: I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
Ro:1:15: So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
Ro:1:16: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Ro:1:17: For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Ro:1:18: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Ro:1:19: Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Ro:1:20: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Ro:1:21: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Ro:1:22: Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

There follows a list of people who God hates and then:

Ro:1:28: And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

i.e. gays, murderers, all the usual suspects, etc. Note "In which God has condemned them to having a reprobate mind" and thus, beyond their own control, be eternally damned.

Note that... God could have shown then the error of their ways instead of leaving itinerant preachers to do this, but no, he saw they were arseholes and gave them a "reprobate mind" very helpful...

And the chapter ends on the cheering note:

Ro:1:32: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

One thing that Paul (or whoever wrote this) fails to address is theodicity: why bad things happen to good people and why bad people have a good life.

Ro:1:18: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

You see, it is not revealed at all!

Paul, of course, thought that with the death of Jesus came the End of Times and that Armageddon would be in his lifetime[1] . (I wonder what he is thinking now?)
 1. 1 Cor 15). In fact, Paul also seems to have firmly believed that he himself and other believers in Christ would not die! (1 Thess 4).
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: epidemic on July 10, 2013, 01:58:50 PM
Paul, of course, thought that with the death of Jesus came the End of Times and that Armageddon would be in his lifetime[1] . (I wonder what he is thinking now?)
 1. 1 Cor 15). In fact, Paul also seems to have firmly believed that he himself and other believers in Christ would not die! (1 Thess 4).

Well I think paul is thinking nothing since he is dead.  Many of His atoms have likely been reclaimed by other life forms and returned to the soil several times since then.


Has anyone attempted to explain the whole ~"these things will come to pass in your lifetime"?
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: Umar on July 10, 2013, 02:25:25 PM
Not sure if this has been brought up here, but what does anyone make of these 2 Bible verses?

As stated in Psalms 14:1, all Atheist are fools:
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."

Matthew 5:22 states:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

So one verse says that Atheist are fools and another verse says that if a someone calls another person a fool, they are in danger of going to hell.

I pointed this out to a Christian who was referring to Atheist as fools in a debate and his response after seeing what Jesus supposedly said in Matthew 5:22 was like, "...and? So what!"

When I used to consider myself to be a Christian, I wonder if I would have put the blinders on just as the guy previously mentioned did, or would I have seen the contradiction right away.

I'm puzzled as to how I could have ever believed any of this stuff!

Lets try a more accurate translation with study references: "However, I say to you that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice; but whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt ["An unspeakable word of contempt." Greek Rhaka] will be accountable to the Supreme Court; whereas whoever says, 'You despicable fool!' will be liable to the fiery Gehenna. (Matthew 5:22 NWT)

Since in the time of earlier translations the meaning of the Greek word Raca wasn't known translators simply transliterated the word. Now the meaning of the word is known, as given above.

Gehenna is often mistranslated as hell. It is actually a literal place S and SW of ancient Jerusalem. It was, in Jesus' time, a symbol of spiritual everlasting destruction, in other words, representative of there being no hope for resurrection for the criminals whose dead bodies were deposited there.

The text at Matthew 5:22 doesn't simply say calling someone a fool leads to spiritual destruction, it is about wrongly accusing ones brother of being morally bankrupt. It's talking about putting oneself in a position of judgment and wrongly condemning a spiritual brother to the spiritual destruction the accuser himself could receive. It is, in effect, blasphemy. Jesus and God and the other righteous prophets under inspiration, operating under the holy spirit, were not wrong in calling unbelievers fools, nor was Jesus contradicting himself or being hypocritical.

Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: Umar on July 10, 2013, 02:30:24 PM
Paul, of course, thought that with the death of Jesus came the End of Times and that Armageddon would be in his lifetime[1] . (I wonder what he is thinking now?)
 1. 1 Cor 15). In fact, Paul also seems to have firmly believed that he himself and other believers in Christ would not die! (1 Thess 4).

Well I think paul is thinking nothing since he is dead.  Many of His atoms have likely been reclaimed by other life forms and returned to the soil several times since then.


Has anyone attempted to explain the whole ~"these things will come to pass in your lifetime"?

Yes. Check out my What The Bible Says About The End Of The World, a response to The Skeptic's Annotated Bible. Here. (http://www.pathwaymachine.com/sab/wtbsatheendoftheworld.htm)
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: jdawg70 on July 10, 2013, 03:47:53 PM
Well I think paul is thinking nothing since he is dead.  Many of His atoms have likely been reclaimed by other life forms and returned to the soil several times since then.


Has anyone attempted to explain the whole ~"these things will come to pass in your lifetime"?
If you accept the concepts of heaven and hell, then it is easypeasy to explain.  In this context, lifetime is the entire lifetime of your spirit.  Also known as forever.  Therefore god's got infinity time to fulfill that.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: ParkingPlaces on July 10, 2013, 03:57:37 PM
So, if I'm following it right, this verse essentially says that the proof of god lies in the fact that the universe exists. By this rationale, wouldn't it be correct to say that rainbows are proof that leprechauns exist?
We know how rainbows are formed, but we only have theories about the universe how it came into existence.

So which is more rational and honest conclusion?

a) I don't know if there is a creator of the universe because we don't have evidence on how the universe was formed or came into existence.

b) I don't know how universe was formed or created but I know there is no creator god.

Are you still teaching your kids theories as if they were facts?
Don't you think it is another way of indoctrination?

You left out a third option. Which can't be shortened to one sentence.

c )We don't know exactly how the universe formed, though we have some pretty interesting and plausible ideas based on our current knowledge of physics and other sciences. They could be wrong too, but they are based on our current understanding, which we realize will change as we research and discover those bits of reality that we can study, observe and use. We don't know if there is a creator, but so far we can't find any evidence for one nor or a need for one. And the only stories that say there is a creator are several millennia old, and based on often ridiculous tales about gardens and floods and such, and hence there is no reason, nor even any method, of taking them into consideration without doing the faith thing. And faith has a consistent policy of distorting the reality of most anyone dependent upon it. Hence adding it to science is even harder. And faith that that makes claims that are consistently outside of scientific knowledge is impossible to use as a reality check because said claims don't fit with anything except the claims that the faith is making.

Note: If you read the posts of the various atheists on this forum, you will note a noticeable consistency in our overall view of the universe, even though we sometimes quibble of little things. We atheists have come from a variety of backgrounds, and have reached our conclusion about the lack of a god or gods in various ways, but we arrived at about the same place anyway. If you read the posts of the various believers that post on this forum, you will notice absolutely no consistency in anything other than their belief in a god. That is, each person of faith that comes here as customized the concept so completely that they often post conflicting religious opinions on a variety of topics. From the literalness of the creation story to the importance of Paul or the meaning of the words of Jesus. That inconsistency is completely consistent with falsehoods perpetrated upon millions by previous millions who were duped by the millions before that. And while I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of any given believer of any faith, I also have no reason to take the time to choose which version of which religion I should swallow hook, line and sinker.


Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: ParkingPlaces on July 10, 2013, 04:07:32 PM
Well I think paul is thinking nothing since he is dead.  Many of His atoms have likely been reclaimed by other life forms and returned to the soil several times since then.


Has anyone attempted to explain the whole ~"these things will come to pass in your lifetime"?
If you accept the concepts of heaven and hell, then it is easypeasy to explain.  In this context, lifetime is the entire lifetime of your spirit.  Also known as forever.  Therefore god's got infinity time to fulfill that.

Life "time", it was called. Infinite beings don't need to take that into consideration, or even name the concept. Time is irrelevant to those who will be around forever. None of the words in their language would reflect any concept of time. And when addressing folks for whom that lack of time is an unknown, such as the aforementioned crowd, if JC was really saying he would be back at some point in infinity, he should have said so, rather than confusing the locals and creating generation after generation of followers who are absolutely convinced that he will show up any day now.

If there is a heaven, I wonder how messed up things are up there, given that things are messed up here rather horribly by all the misunderstandings the biblical god and his kid caused. If the dude is real, he can't omnipotent his way out of a wet paper bag. I wouldn't get your hopes up on the "living forever with god thing" if I were you. You might have to sweep floors or clean toilets for all of infinity, because of oversights in his planning of heaven.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: jaimehlers on July 10, 2013, 05:17:17 PM
So which is more rational and honest conclusion?

a) I don't know if there is a creator of the universe because we don't have evidence on how the universe was formed or came into existence.

b) I don't know how universe was formed or created but I know there is no creator god.

Are you still teaching your kids theories as if they were facts?
Don't you think it is another way of indoctrination?
This is essentially a false dichotomy.  You are presenting only two of the possible conclusions and leaving out the others.  Furthermore, both of these conclusions are a lot more honest than believing in a religious creation story and a definite creator based on the religion's creation story.

While it's true that one can't rule out possibilities without evidence, the fact of the matter is that one shouldn't put any credence in a possibility for which no reliable evidence exists.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: nogodsforme on July 10, 2013, 09:57:43 PM
If I tell my kids that there are no real werewolves or ghosts, am I "teaching a theory as fact"?

I say that there are no gods (as they have been described by people) exactly the same way that I say that there are no vampires, werewolves, mermaids, elves, fairies, witches, angels, ghosts, or chupacabras.  Most religious people have given up believing in most of those things, too. 

Because there is no evidence that any of them exist, and we have much better scientific explanations for supposedly supernatural events. Like, germs cause disease, not spells cast by witches.
Yet, there is still the need to hold onto that one last supernatural being. No evidence for it either. It's like people have rolled all the other magical things into one big magic thing and can't give it up.  Not sure why. 

Well, if there is no god, then where did the universe come from? If there are no banshees, then what was that strange howling noise outside my house last night? Huh? Tell me that, smarty-pants!
:?
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: Spit on July 10, 2013, 10:41:52 PM
We're fools but we don't give 10% before taxes to a church. Don't worry. They spend you're money wisely. Lawl!  ;D
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: John 3 16 on July 11, 2013, 08:32:24 AM
Well, if there is no god, then where did the universe come from? If there are no banshees, then what was that strange howling noise outside my house last night? Huh? Tell me that, smarty-pants!
:?
I am pretty sure what you heard outside your house last night was your neighbor's dog or cat or panda.  :o

Unlike the noise you heard last night, the earth, ocean, people, and the universe there is evidence for their existence, not to mention they are tangible.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: ParkingPlaces on July 11, 2013, 08:51:41 AM
Well, if there is no god, then where did the universe come from? If there are no banshees, then what was that strange howling noise outside my house last night? Huh? Tell me that, smarty-pants!
:?
I am pretty sure what you heard outside your house last night was your neighbor's dog or cat or panda.  :o

Unlike the noise you heard last night, the earth, ocean, people, and the universe there is evidence for their existence, not to mention they are tangible.

They are also evidence that no creator was needed. And still tangible. But experiments show that if you learn about science while humming your favorite hymn (Onward Christians Soldiers or whatever), the information goes in crooked and ends up looking like something else.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: John 3 16 on July 11, 2013, 09:13:36 AM
They are also evidence that no creator was needed. And still tangible. But experiments show that if you learn about science while humming your favorite hymn (Onward Christians Soldiers or whatever), the information goes in crooked and ends up looking like something else.
Believers believe due to lack of education.  :o

All we believers have to do is learn more and educate ourselves better, then we will see the evidence that there is no god..........  &)

Thank you for your info. but no thanks.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: jaimehlers on July 11, 2013, 09:37:23 AM
Believers believe due to lack of education.  :o

All we believers have to do is learn more and educate ourselves better, then we will see the evidence that there is no god..........  &)

Thank you for your info. but no thanks.
You just illustrated a large part of what he was talking about.

He wasn't saying that believers were not educated - indeed, many believers are educated.  He was saying that religious belief tends to be the most prevalent where education is the most lacking.  And that means, whether you like it or not, that many people are going to draw the connection between "poorly educated" and "highly religious".  Is it any wonder that religion is declining?

What you should be doing is pushing for education in religious states, so as to dispel that correlation, not acting as if it's something unimportant that you can do without.  Because it really isn't.  The days when all people needed was "reading, riting, and rithmetic" are long gone.  For that matter, the days when people could get good, high-paying jobs straight out of high school are also gone, although that's more because high school standards have declined so much - in large part because of people who are afraid that education will hurt their religiosity (though they don't generally put it quite that bluntly).

I don't particularly care if people want to hold religious beliefs.  But they have no business sabotaging their futures, and their children's futures, for the sake of those religious beliefs.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: nogodsforme on July 11, 2013, 10:25:42 AM
Well, if there is no god, then where did the universe come from? If there are no banshees, then what was that strange howling noise outside my house last night? Huh? Tell me that, smarty-pants!
:?
I am pretty sure what you heard outside your house last night was your neighbor's dog or cat or panda.  :o

Unlike the noise you heard last night, the earth, ocean, people, and the universe there is evidence for their existence, not to mention they are tangible.

How can you be "pretty sure" about what I heard last night? Can you prove that the howling noise was not a banshee? Convince me that I did not hear a supernatural monster screeching for my soul. :?
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: jaimehlers on July 11, 2013, 10:37:48 AM
I am pretty sure what you heard outside your house last night was your neighbor's dog or cat or panda.  :o
Which is the point.  You picked an ordinary explanation because you don't believe in supernatural monsters.

Quote from: John 3 16
Unlike the noise you heard last night, the earth, ocean, people, and the universe there is evidence for their existence, not to mention they are tangible.
Because you believe in a supernatural deity, you look for a supernatural explanation for these other things.

What you believe determines how you try to explain things.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: Nam on July 11, 2013, 01:00:46 PM
Atheist Fool™ it isn't just your average cough medicine but it cures gaseous odors, as well. It is currently only pill-form but coming soon: Liquid Atheist Fool™ -- for those hard to reach places. Only $59.95 per bottle (minus State, Federal, and Stupidity taxes).

-Nam
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: John 3 16 on July 11, 2013, 02:06:15 PM
How can you be "pretty sure" about what I heard last night?
You are right! I can not be "pretty sure" about what you heard last night, but you and I both agree that you've heard something.  Right? cause and effect.

Cause=Banshee or unknown animal (the Creator), effect=the noise (the universe)

You heard something last night so there has to be something which cause the noise it could be your neighbor's dog or it could be a banshee in you head.  You just don't hear a noise without a cause.

So let me ask you

when you and your kid hear a noise (you don't know what it is), at night and your kid asks you "Mommy what's that noise outside"?
what do you tell him/her?
Quote
Can you prove that the howling noise was not a banshee? Convince me that I did not hear a supernatural monster screeching for my soul. :?
Sure, you would have to prove that the universe was not created by God first.  ;D
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 11, 2013, 03:23:12 PM

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."   
http://biblehub.com/romans/1-20.htm

are you serious?  invisible qualities clearly seen??????

I agree.  It's hard to cipher how invisible things can be "clearly seen."
So, let's assume, for the sake of understanding, that it means what it says.

So what is "clearly seen":

Infinite complexity-The closer you look, the more there is to see.
Big - like no-end-in-sight big.
Delicate - every big thing we see is made of millions of small parts.
Reliable - not much changes at all.

So that passage is making clear that what God has created is not God.
But it reflects his divine nature.   So our reality is proof enough of God.
Those who don't have a Bible are not off the playing field. Because
of Creation, there is no excuse for not knowing God.

all it makes clear to me is some ancient folks claimed god is there an  did what they attribute  to him/them.
what makes any of it divine?  some  kid was run over here  the other day at a 4th of july parade by his dad - drive  of  the float. we who saw that witnessed nothing divine or nothing of his divine nature. bu  let me guess, thats sin right? not part of his creation?

In the original creation, we existed like God.   
Then man turned away from that existence
to be more independent.   
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: One Above All on July 11, 2013, 03:38:11 PM
In the original creation, we existed like God.   
Then man turned away from that existence
to be more independent.   

Bullshit. Your god[1] kicked them out once they knew good and evil, like it did. In other words, they were kicked out for becoming partially like your god. In fact, your god was so scared/frightened/pissing in his pants at the idea of them becoming immortal like it was, that it kicked them out (once its decision was approved by the other gods, obviously; your god can't do anything by itself).
 1. And I use the term loosely.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 11, 2013, 03:58:14 PM
In the original creation, we existed like God.   
Then man turned away from that existence
to be more independent.   

Bullshit. Your god[1] kicked them out once they knew good and evil, like it did. In other words, they were kicked out for becoming partially like your god. In fact, your god was so scared/frightened/pissing in his pants at the idea of them becoming immortal like it was, that it kicked them out (once its decision was approved by the other gods, obviously; your god can't do anything by itself).
 1. And I use the term loosely.

Weren't humans already immortal when originally created?

In the writings you refer to it says:
"When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone..."  http://biblehub.com/romans/5-12.htm


Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: One Above All on July 11, 2013, 04:04:49 PM
Weren't humans already immortal when originally created?

In the writings you refer to it says:
"When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone..."  http://biblehub.com/romans/5-12.htm

In another part of the Bible, it says:
Quote from: Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Source: http://biblehub.com/genesis/3-22.htm

Comments?
I won't be so arrogant as to claim that I know what you're going to say next, but I have a pretty good guess.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: jaimehlers on July 11, 2013, 04:14:57 PM
Weren't humans already immortal when originally created?
Nope.  Nothing in either creation story states that humans were made immortal, and indeed, Genesis 3:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3&version=NIV) pretty explicitly states that humans needed to eat of the fruit of the tree of life to be immortal.

Quote from: SkyWriting
In the writings you refer to it says:
"When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone..."  http://biblehub.com/romans/5-12.htm
Last I checked, Paul wasn't around during that time, so he does not count as a reputable source of information about the Garden of Eden.  His assumption that death didn't originally exist is just that, an assumption, and thus should not be considered a reputable source for events in that time and place.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: nogodsforme on July 11, 2013, 04:15:32 PM
How can you be "pretty sure" about what I heard last night?
You are right! I can not be "pretty sure" about what you heard last night, but you and I both agree that you've heard something.  Right? cause and effect.

Cause=Banshee or unknown animal (the Creator), effect=the noise (the universe)

You heard something last night so there has to be something which cause the noise it could be your neighbor's dog or it could be a banshee in you head.  You just don't hear a noise without a cause.

So let me ask you

when you and your kid hear a noise (you don't know what it is), at night and your kid asks you "Mommy what's that noise outside"?
what do you tell him/her?
Quote
Can you prove that the howling noise was not a banshee? Convince me that I did not hear a supernatural monster screeching for my soul. :?
Sure, you would have to prove that the universe was not created by God first.  ;D
Now we are getting somewhere.

You realize that I cannot prove to you that there is no god. Just like we cannot prove to you that there are no elves, witches or ghosts. Does it necessarily follow that we must believe in the existence of all of those things, if we cannot prove they don't exist? Do we have to believe in absolutely everything that could possibly exist (no matter how improbable or silly)  just because we can't prove that they aren't real? Why not just believe in everything that anyone has ever thought up?

Here is the deal. It is very hard to show evidence of a lack of something, ie. that something does not exist. It is far easier to show evidence of the presence of something that does exist. If something is really there, you should be able to detect it with some kind of evidence of that thing. Then you can evaluate the evidence to see how convincing it is.

For example, some people say a Bigfoot creature lives in the woods. I even know a very reasonable lady who swears that she saw him clearly in broad daylight. I don't know what she saw, but it was surely something. So, I can't prove that Bigfoot doesn't exist, because maybe he is just really good at hiding most of the time.

But I can look at the evidence and see that it is pretty flimsy-- eyewitness reports from some people, a few blurry photos from a long way away, one questionable fuzzy film, some planted hairs that turned out to be yak, etc. And I can conclude that nobody has proven Bigfoot, because the evidence is so bad. I can safely say that there is no Bigfoot, as far as the evidence shows.

And you cannot prove to me that the noise I heard last night was not a chupacabra, a baka, an avatar of Vishnu, a unicorn-- or a banshee. Does that mean you have to believe in the possibility of all of these being outside my house? If you cannot prove they don't exist, then you have to assume that they do exist. And not just casually sorta believe, but believe with all your heart and soul, and use that belief to guide your major life decisions.

Tell everyone you know about banshees, lobby to get ideas about banshees taught in the public schools to all children, have people in stores say, "beware of banshees" to customers, put up lists of ways to protect yourself from banshees in public places and government buildings. Go to banshee protection meetings at least once a week to discuss the nasty critters with like-minded people. read banshee literature. Put stuff about banshees on your car. Elect anti-banshee politicians. Go to war against countries that seem too soft on banshees......

If you find the possibility of all this ridiculous, you can only imagine how I feel about religion.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: John 3 16 on July 11, 2013, 06:06:42 PM
If you find the possibility of all this ridiculous, you can only imagine how I feel about religion.
You still don't get my point.

Currently I have no interest talking about my religion or trying to defend my God.

What I am saying is "We have the universe, earth, and human and no one seem to be able to understand or explain how those were created or came into existence with bullet proof evidence."

"All we've got is speculations and theories and guesses with scientific studies and researches"

"Nothing was proven with factual evidence no matter how good they sound theories are theories not facts!"

"When you don't know for sure what causes the noise outside your house, why do you tell your kids that you know what it is and give them false information?" (e.g. the big bang theory.)

"Who cares about Banshees, unicorns, and leprechauns?"

"Isn't it more honest to just say I don't know"?
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: ParkingPlaces on July 11, 2013, 06:27:27 PM
If you find the possibility of all this ridiculous, you can only imagine how I feel about religion.
You still don't get my point.

Currently I have no interest talking about my religion or trying to defend my God.

What I am saying is "We the the universe, earth, and human and no one seem to be able to understand or explain how those were created or came into existence with bullet proof evidence."

"All we've got is speculations and theories and guesses with scientific studies and researches"

"Nothing was proven with factual evidence no matter how good they sound theories are theories not facts!"

"When you don't know for sure what causes the noise outside your house, why do you tell your kids that you know what it is and give them false information?" (e.g. the big bang theory.)

"Who cares about Banshees, unicorns, and leprechauns?"

"Isn't it more honest to just say I don't know"?

Um, the big bang theory is taught as the currently most likely candidate, not the final word. Also, those who came up with the theory predicted that the start of the universe should have created a large, detectable background radio signal, and they were perplexed for awhile because they couldn't find it. But that turned out to be because they didn't have good enough equipment back in the 40's or earlier. Once the signal was detected, it was almost exactly the frequency and strength predicted. Which sort of lent some credence to the whole idea. But nonetheless, it is a theory that could be changed by new information. And science is looking for new information daily. People are not sitting on their hands and pretending we know enough already.

It doesn't qualify as false information. It is where we are right now in our understanding of the universe. Now if you want to add an ancient god running around up there doing things down here or forking out the dough for the eternal afterlife or something, go right ahead. But if you think we don't have enough evidence for the big bang, I can pretty much assure you that evidence for the god that you personally prefer is far less obvious. Yes, you can interpret various phenomena is being in your favor, because you said so. But that, in and of itself, doesn't hold a candle to scientific observation, measurement and/or theories with strong mathematical and experimental backups. That you are trying to equate them and call them equal partners is speculation or something. Even though you are completely dependent on the old stories that you choose to believe. And completely dependent on rejecting old stories that you choose not to believe.

We who follow science understand that perfection is not an option, but that information never hurt anything. And just as we laugh at the silly things people (including scientists) believed a hundred years ago, not all of it was bunk and we couldn't possibly be where we are today without the groundbreaking work of people whose theories were eventually dismissed.

The nice thing about science is that we don't have to live in fear of any discovery. There is nothing out there that we can find that will ruin us as humans because it is too much information or information saying the wrong thing. The religious, on the other hand, have plenty to fear from science. Depending on the level of fundamentalism adhered to, new information can be inconvenient in myriad ways. Having to make up excuses for dinosaurs took a lot out of some peoples sails, and the fear that life will be found elsewhere burdens many a current believer, for whom such information would be rather inconvenient. You may have a more liberal view of religion, and think that you have less to fear from any new discoveries, but your insistence that science is low quality information and that the god thing is high quality merely belies your beliefs, not anything real and/or useful.

We can't land probes on Mars using biblical verses, we can't wipe polio off the planet using the words of Jesus, we can't solve pollution problems by reading Revelation out loud to passersby. Diss science all you want, but if the only alternative you have to offer is myth-level information with no relevance to anyone without a vivid (and limited) imagination, you aren't offering anything better.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: nogodsforme on July 11, 2013, 06:50:35 PM
^^^^What he said.

And btw, a scientific theory is as close to a fact as it gets. A theory explains the past and predicts future events better than any current alternatives. Like, the theory of gravity, or germ theory. Same thing with evolutionary theory. They are pretty close to 100% fact, based on current knowledge.  Scientists don't call it a theory until they have tested enough evidence. 

Look it up. On a science site, not a religious one..... &)
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 12, 2013, 04:37:07 AM
^^^^What he said.

And btw, a scientific theory is as close to a fact as it gets. A theory explains the past and predicts future events better than any current alternatives. Like, the theory of gravity, or germ theory. Same thing with evolutionary theory. They are pretty close to 100% fact, based on current knowledge.  Scientists don't call it a theory until they have tested enough evidence. 

Look it up. On a science site, not a religious one..... &)

I support all evolutionary theory that can be tested.  But not fiction.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 12, 2013, 04:48:08 AM
Um, the big bang theory is taught as the currently most likely candidate, not the final word. Also, those who came up with the theory predicted that the start of the universe should have created a large, detectable background radio signal, and they were perplexed for awhile because they couldn't find it. But that turned out to be because they didn't have good enough equipment back in the 40's or earlier. Once the signal was detected, it was almost exactly the frequency and strength predicted.

Well that's just weird.  "They" predicted a background signal (some paper did, somewhere anyway).  Then they couldn't find it, because it was almost exactly the strength and frequency predicted?  Don't you mean 10 times less strong than the detectors they built could handle?  But that didn't stop them from publishing a fake map of the sky showing a false image of something they couldn't detect. (http://www.geocities.ws/rolobter/diplom/astro/hintergrundstrahlung/sm_COBE-big.jpg)
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: One Above All on July 12, 2013, 06:11:13 AM
I support all evolutionary theory that can be tested.  But not fiction.

You might as well say you support all evolutionary theory, given what "theory" means in the scientific sense, but we all know that's not true. You don't understand it well enough.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: William on July 12, 2013, 06:33:09 AM
I support all evolutionary theory that can be tested.  But not fiction.

Your criteria of "testability" is too strict and impractical with a lot of historical evidence in science.  Rational fit is quite sufficient for evidence that can't be expected to be reproduced through experiment.
How would you "test" the finding of a rare or one-off fossil?  Other than its fit with what is consistent with observed reality and the general concepts of evolution?

Quote
Tiktaalik provides insights on the features of the extinct closest relatives of the tetrapods. Unlike many previous, more fishlike transitional fossils, the "fins" of Tiktaalik have basic wrist bones and simple rays reminiscent of fingers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik

Quote
Aside from showing the first and only fossil evidence of a spider attacking prey in its web, the piece of amber also contains the body of a male spider in the same web. This provides the oldest evidence of social behavior in spiders, which still exists in some species but is fairly rare. Most spiders have solitary, often cannibalistic lives, and males will not hesitate to attack immature species in the same web.
http://oregonstate.edu/ua/ncs/archives/2012/oct/fossil-ancient-spider-attack-only-one-its-type-ever-discovered

Quote
Biological anthropologists use genetic data to understand the evolutionary relationships that humans share with great apes and to examine how our genetic history differs from theirs.
http://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/primate-speciation-a-case-study-of-african-96682434

There is not enough time available to conduct experiments that re-run evolution.  And if we did have enough time, the results might be different to what occurred first time - an outcome that happens to be entirely consistent with the theory of evolution.
Of course it's all very convenient for proponents of the theory of evolution that many outcomes would be valid - but that ubiquitous convenience is itself yet more reason to think that the theory is valid  :)  The theory has so much explanatory power that we just can't find its limits when we look at the weirdness of nature.

Creation theory hits any amount of limits if we care to look.  Explain the prevalence of human back ache, zits, ear hair, in-grown toenails, spontaneous abortions, Alzheimer's disease, myopia, allergies, essential vitamin requirements, etc if there was a divine designer at the helm.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: jdawg70 on July 12, 2013, 09:49:58 AM
Um, the big bang theory is taught as the currently most likely candidate, not the final word. Also, those who came up with the theory predicted that the start of the universe should have created a large, detectable background radio signal, and they were perplexed for awhile because they couldn't find it. But that turned out to be because they didn't have good enough equipment back in the 40's or earlier. Once the signal was detected, it was almost exactly the frequency and strength predicted.

Well that's just weird.  "They" predicted a background signal (some paper did, somewhere anyway).  Then they couldn't find it, because it was almost exactly the strength and frequency predicted?  Don't you mean 10 times less strong than the detectors they built could handle?  But that didn't stop them from publishing a fake map of the sky showing a false image of something they couldn't detect. (http://www.geocities.ws/rolobter/diplom/astro/hintergrundstrahlung/sm_COBE-big.jpg)

Don't suppose you could let on what this publication was, could you?  The image on Geocities you posted doesn't really help me figure any of that out.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 12, 2013, 10:48:55 AM
Um, the big bang theory is taught as the currently most likely candidate, not the final word. Also, those who came up with the theory predicted that the start of the universe should have created a large, detectable background radio signal, and they were perplexed for awhile because they couldn't find it. But that turned out to be because they didn't have good enough equipment back in the 40's or earlier. Once the signal was detected, it was almost exactly the frequency and strength predicted.

The original source is NASA.    Here is a google image search:


Well that's just weird.  "They" predicted a background signal (some paper did, somewhere anyway).  Then they couldn't find it, because it was almost exactly the strength and frequency predicted?  Don't you mean 10 times less strong than the detectors they built could handle?  But that didn't stop them from publishing a fake map of the sky showing a false image of something they couldn't detect. (http://www.geocities.ws/rolobter/diplom/astro/hintergrundstrahlung/sm_COBE-big.jpg)

Don't suppose you could let on what this publication was, could you?  The image on Geocities you posted doesn't really help me figure any of that out.

NASA was the source.  Here is an Image Search:

https://www.google.com/search?tbs=sbi:AMhZZitaOeEva8mYZZfAUt1K9CjPT_1m3lT_1xpRevy49o4epxDec7sAvMhoPqm9tO-qFe-lIn-IzSxcuA3h4moyg7rkoM74VOsoq4iO4t_1pg_1CZf7D6RTFKu8eieVg8WncEuLkS_11_1SZ9ncenUuACPmDiCqBC0t_1oxzC1TQ5FPmvbgZOWE747S4ttNf18dOL_1J8gZzOQmgqyPpHhWDe65BT7DhQl3ygLn1QndB-J-lEFB1YaYtXU7WBYDnJU1D52fxV9HkrMvRvPy1ify44fZAJqiNZrdq8NXQ2J1bL4PQ31xfH1V8FXGAr6u4zUD8h9yh8BISb0ifZEQourm_1H0dV2KUbJfu27Wxfw6MhNXLYTdJVFC95K4EoN-dtHg472Zr3S1O0U7YxHVqgDyePyX4Jw-zZ6ZjVtEJyTqCdYVn0oxu7I4j8xDxU0AOyuDObbqY37nBjUK6qR8O4wIv01H4z6KR2ec4DVOgwu6qA1C0D6rCmbBjKiq1S-1rK55fFnO7MchRst_1C00jb59n9KgZ4wcU-L2vLDHPH_1cY94KBGO0iR_1XMXpbrLelyP4_1nZnRZXwfRtUgmX_1sq33kguXm37PjtarHWZ-XuabX_1nfkxlHUIYp8z-Qt3j6q_1TM_1Ua5Sa9iGqo54P5HhcuEWnVaqZqpLPKI_1j2LU2aYmm8D64cKtBgHcntQ6QteMgPavf90X-fEVy6j_1udN453e_1GxXDD2fQ-7EXNKpBAov1-n9QYqfLZ7j1gBbIX1eBQDw0OZiLL-2tQL-IXof1pCKul6Z2uJZeKenIk8tWa3kmxYQ5TQqY27DBTM2Qh43nXVsynT0JTpClmKKENqIheq7N5D9TLCn6LuPKaAgJhbOG_1r5U2LWRTtZzXXlkzn-eKaYu36eT1nYsMlZw5xiY_1GNbO1r5g1YVLwIEYHD2SqBlsS0YdbPC5Cou5eejzF2vXw0JpkYSIgKtBNH3sk0QR2U4Qs01GWjSy22-gj1zrVGn4wkJ0NPO81_1sSsVPHIzoTkaMUs4G6BosDTp_1dGwDYyXs_1NBVbfNXpJ3m6ba_1J3Mw&width=170&height=85
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: jdawg70 on July 12, 2013, 11:50:50 AM
NASA was the source.  Here is an Image Search:

https://www.google.com/search?tbs=sbi:AMhZZitaOeEva8mYZZfAUt1K9CjPT_1m3lT_1xpRevy49o4epxDec7sAvMhoPqm9tO-qFe-lIn-IzSxcuA3h4moyg7rkoM74VOsoq4iO4t_1pg_1CZf7D6RTFKu8eieVg8WncEuLkS_11_1SZ9ncenUuACPmDiCqBC0t_1oxzC1TQ5FPmvbgZOWE747S4ttNf18dOL_1J8gZzOQmgqyPpHhWDe65BT7DhQl3ygLn1QndB-J-lEFB1YaYtXU7WBYDnJU1D52fxV9HkrMvRvPy1ify44fZAJqiNZrdq8NXQ2J1bL4PQ31xfH1V8FXGAr6u4zUD8h9yh8BISb0ifZEQourm_1H0dV2KUbJfu27Wxfw6MhNXLYTdJVFC95K4EoN-dtHg472Zr3S1O0U7YxHVqgDyePyX4Jw-zZ6ZjVtEJyTqCdYVn0oxu7I4j8xDxU0AOyuDObbqY37nBjUK6qR8O4wIv01H4z6KR2ec4DVOgwu6qA1C0D6rCmbBjKiq1S-1rK55fFnO7MchRst_1C00jb59n9KgZ4wcU-L2vLDHPH_1cY94KBGO0iR_1XMXpbrLelyP4_1nZnRZXwfRtUgmX_1sq33kguXm37PjtarHWZ-XuabX_1nfkxlHUIYp8z-Qt3j6q_1TM_1Ua5Sa9iGqo54P5HhcuEWnVaqZqpLPKI_1j2LU2aYmm8D64cKtBgHcntQ6QteMgPavf90X-fEVy6j_1udN453e_1GxXDD2fQ-7EXNKpBAov1-n9QYqfLZ7j1gBbIX1eBQDw0OZiLL-2tQL-IXof1pCKul6Z2uJZeKenIk8tWa3kmxYQ5TQqY27DBTM2Qh43nXVsynT0JTpClmKKENqIheq7N5D9TLCn6LuPKaAgJhbOG_1r5U2LWRTtZzXXlkzn-eKaYu36eT1nYsMlZw5xiY_1GNbO1r5g1YVLwIEYHD2SqBlsS0YdbPC5Cou5eejzF2vXw0JpkYSIgKtBNH3sk0QR2U4Qs01GWjSy22-gj1zrVGn4wkJ0NPO81_1sSsVPHIzoTkaMUs4G6BosDTp_1dGwDYyXs_1NBVbfNXpJ3m6ba_1J3Mw&width=170&height=85
Oh good another link to a f**king search.  You mentioned published.  If your claims of being a scientist are valid I'd expect you to be able to provide a f**king citation to a publication, not "this is what I typed in Google".

Please note that I asked that question with sincerity.  I really do want to know what publication you are referring to.
Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: nogodsforme on July 12, 2013, 12:37:47 PM
^^^^What he said.

And btw, a scientific theory is as close to a fact as it gets. A theory explains the past and predicts future events better than any current alternatives. Like, the theory of gravity, or germ theory. Same thing with evolutionary theory. They are pretty close to 100% fact, based on current knowledge.  Scientists don't call it a theory until they have tested enough evidence. 

Look it up. On a science site, not a religious one..... &)

I support all evolutionary theory that can be tested.  But not fiction.

The field of genetics would not exist without the theory of evolution. So far, there has never been a situation where two unrelated people had the same DNA. If that happened, that would falsify the theory. It has never happened. Proof of the TOE. It is amazing to me that people can casually accept DNA matching to catch criminals and deny the reality of evolution! CSI is a test of the theory conducted by police departments every single day.
 
It does not really matter if we can never exactly duplicate every step in the millions of years of evolution in a lab. We can't exactly duplicate the millions of years it took for the formation of petroleum either, but petroleum clearly exists. The only test of evolutionary theory that matters is the fact that, when it is applied to real world problems, it works as the theory says it should.

The theory says that organisms inherit characteristics from previous organisms, sometimes with mutations that change the organism's ability to survive. The theory does not say that the inherited characteristics or mutations all have to make sense, only that they can't prevent the organism from living long enough to reproduce.

And we find vestigial foot bones in whales that show that they evolved from land dwelling mammals that had feet. These foot bones don't prevent whales from surviving or reproducing. But whales don't need feet. Why would a creator give whales foot bones? Just as a joke to fool later scientists?

There are many, many examples like this, some very simple to understand, like the differences between bats' wings and birds' wings. Bats evolved from mammals that had feet and claws instead of wings, and you can clearly see that the wings are extensions of feet with claws. But birds do not have feet and claws at the ends of their wings-- they evolved from different ancestors.

Others a bit more complicated like the 98% match between human and chimpanzee DNA, where the 2% difference is exactly where the TOE predicted it should be.

I think this stuff is awesome. Some religious people find it scary and threatening. Too bad, because the TOE is the truth.

Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: ParkingPlaces on July 12, 2013, 12:48:00 PM
Um, the big bang theory is taught as the currently most likely candidate, not the final word. Also, those who came up with the theory predicted that the start of the universe should have created a large, detectable background radio signal, and they were perplexed for awhile because they couldn't find it. But that turned out to be because they didn't have good enough equipment back in the 40's or earlier. Once the signal was detected, it was almost exactly the frequency and strength predicted.

Well that's just weird.  "They" predicted a background signal (some paper did, somewhere anyway).  Then they couldn't find it, because it was almost exactly the strength and frequency predicted?  Don't you mean 10 times less strong than the detectors they built could handle?  But that didn't stop them from publishing a fake map of the sky showing a false image of something they couldn't detect. (http://www.geocities.ws/rolobter/diplom/astro/hintergrundstrahlung/sm_COBE-big.jpg)

Lemme see. The background radiation was predicted in the late 40's. Engineers working for ATT kept picking up unknown signals in new equipment in the early 60's, and couldn't figure out what it was. Then a Princeton physicist found out about it and those radio waves proved to be the ones predicted in the 40's. And the map you are showing was produced earlier this century, over 40 years later. After much more precise equipment could be used to do the mapping. And it is referred to as a "false color" image because your god didn't have the foresight to give us the ability to see radio waves so we kinda have to fake it. And radio waves don't have color anyway.

So you were pretty much wrong about everything and yet you want to base your version of the truth on what you think is true. I'd work on that if I were you.

Title: Re: All Atheist Are Fools...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 12, 2013, 02:51:28 PM
Um, the big bang theory is taught as the currently most likely candidate, not the final word. Also, those who came up with the theory predicted that the start of the universe should have created a large, detectable background radio signal, and they were perplexed for awhile because they couldn't find it. But that turned out to be because they didn't have good enough equipment back in the 40's or earlier. Once the signal was detected, it was almost exactly the frequency and strength predicted.

Well that's just weird.  "They" predicted a background signal (some paper did, somewhere anyway).  Then they couldn't find it, because it was almost exactly the strength and frequency predicted?  Don't you mean 10 times less strong than the detectors they built could handle?  But that didn't stop them from publishing a fake map of the sky showing a false image of something they couldn't detect. (http://www.geocities.ws/rolobter/diplom/astro/hintergrundstrahlung/sm_COBE-big.jpg)

Lemme see. The background radiation was predicted in the late 40's. Engineers working for ATT kept picking up unknown signals in new equipment in the early 60's, and couldn't figure out what it was. Then a Princeton physicist found out about it and those radio waves proved to be the ones predicted in the 40's. And the map you are showing was produced earlier this century, over 40 years later. After much more precise equipment could be used to do the mapping. And it is referred to as a "false color" image because your god didn't have the foresight to give us the ability to see radio waves so we kinda have to fake it. And radio waves don't have color anyway.

So you were pretty much wrong about everything and yet you want to base your version of the truth on what you think is true. I'd work on that if I were you.

Why is your new story (near above) completely contrary to your original story (top)?