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Main Discussion Zone => Sexuality, Reproduction, & Abortion => Topic started by: epidemic on June 21, 2013, 11:02:18 AM

Title: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: epidemic on June 21, 2013, 11:02:18 AM
Assuming god is going to burn you in hell for performing abortion or getting an abortion.  If done for the right reason isn't abortion about the highest selfless act a human can be involved in.

If am religious and a firm believer in god and I decide to abort a fetus knowing full well I will receive ultimate punishment a sacrafice that rivals or surpasses that of jesus's time on the cross.  By aborting a fetus I give a soul a one way pass to heaven, that being need ever risk hell for some transgression like the crime of not believing.  So in essence I sacrifice my everlasting soul so that a human need never risk ultimate suffering.

An abortion doctor who does this save 10's of thousands of souls in his lifetime.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: One Above All on June 21, 2013, 11:03:33 AM
While you make a good point, note that abortions are rare. Women don't like abortions any more than the fundies do. They just don't have any other choice.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: epidemic on June 21, 2013, 12:14:54 PM
Well I disagree with the absoluteness of your comment,  women are the only ones with a choice, 1 deciding to have sex, deciding to not use enough birth control, and finally the ultimate choice of continuation of the pregnancy (well that is excluding rape.  You say women do not like it.   I agree at the basest level with that comment, yes very few women like to spend several hundred dollars sit with their legs spread to have an unwanted pregnancy is medically terminated.  But there are many women who use this as a form of birth control, they for what ever reason are recidivist abortion recipients.   Since there are alternatives i would say in some way they bring it on themselves.  Of course I do not have a problem with them choosing this route I would not exactly say that all women have no choice.  In essence the serial abortion recipient chose to become pregnant through either willful ignorance or neglect.  BTW i am not putting this all on women or bashing them in any way if it appears as if I am then I am misunderstood.

Having sex is usually a mutual decision, but Men's choice really goes out the door after they ejaculate, every choice after that really resides with the woman.


Religious people feel that a zygot is a fully vested child, so killing it is no more a choice than killing your 1 month old because it is keeping you up at night or costing you more than you expected.   I understand their postion but I happen to simply disagree with it.




Of course I argue that it is not a fully vested child as is evidenced by the different treatment of it.   A religious person would likely shun a woman who chopped up her 3 children while they slept, but a woman who has 3 abortions will still be able to sit across the table from them and or babysit their children.   The religious obviously put more value on a post vaginal child than one in utero.


But back to the thread topic.

Do you think that a person who risks hell in order to save souls makes the ultimate sacrifice in the eyes of god.  Since that sacrifice is made selflessly and is for eternity that it may rival that of the lamb of God.  That by sacrificing their eternal souls to insure another life does not risk suffering hardship and ultimate hell fire they are hero's
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: One Above All on June 21, 2013, 12:27:39 PM
Abortions are mainly used for risky pregnancies; not as a substitute for contraception.

On-topic:
Yes, according to religious beliefs, abortions save souls from hellfire. However, you might notice theists don't usually apply logic to their religious beliefs. If they did, they wouldn't be theists.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nick on June 21, 2013, 12:39:02 PM
It is a personal choice...bottom line.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on June 21, 2013, 09:19:34 PM
Good reading:

http://www.christianbiblereference.org/faq_abortion.htm

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jynnan tonnix on June 22, 2013, 07:22:18 PM
But in the fundy's mind (and, honestly, I can sort of see the POV despite not believing in the mythology behind it), god should be the one to choose whether or not a fertilized egg results in a child. He, of course, has a "plan", wherein he can cause a spontaneous miscarriage (often to the heartbreak of a couple who had desperately wanted children), but on the other hand, the child who was supposed to have multiple birth defects and be born into a life of hopeless poverty might, very occasionally, overcome the odds and become someone of great stature. Or, at least, someone who is loved and manages to live a fulfilling life.  It's a difficult question, really. I'm definitely pro-choice, but it's an argument for which I can really sympathize with the beliefs and emotions on the opposite side.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on June 22, 2013, 08:36:39 PM
On the topic of abortion, and recent news...

Miscarriages now punishable by years in prison, sometimes life (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/24/america-pregnant-women-murder-charges)
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nick on June 22, 2013, 09:17:40 PM
On the topic of abortion, and recent news...

Miscarriages now punishable by years in prison, sometimes life (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/24/america-pregnant-women-murder-charges)
Well, that will certainly teach the woman.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on June 22, 2013, 09:53:02 PM
It's a war on women, and sadly many women are leading the charge.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: natlegend on June 23, 2013, 02:26:52 AM
<snip>...But there are many women who use this as a form of birth control...<snip>

This. This is what seriously infuriates me about 'the abortion debate', that a woman would use abortion as a form of contraception. Although it has never happened to me, I simply cannot think of a more heart wrenching descision I would have to make if I were in that situation. It is NOT a simple procedure, it is invasive, and extremely traumatic. I get the strong feeling that there are ignorant people out there who believe that a woman will flippantly get an abortion in between doing some shopping and getting her hair done. Epidemic, you are being willfully ignorant and callous if you believe this to be the truth.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: The Gawd on June 23, 2013, 10:40:00 PM
But in the fundy's mind (and, honestly, I can sort of see the POV despite not believing in the mythology behind it), god should be the one to choose whether or not a fertilized egg results in a child. He, of course, has a "plan", wherein he can cause a spontaneous miscarriage (often to the heartbreak of a couple who had desperately wanted children), but on the other hand, the child who was supposed to have multiple birth defects and be born into a life of hopeless poverty might, very occasionally, overcome the odds and become someone of great stature. Or, at least, someone who is loved and manages to live a fulfilling life.  It's a difficult question, really. I'm definitely pro-choice, but it's an argument for which I can really sympathize with the beliefs and emotions on the opposite side.
It would still be part of yahweh's plan, no? If yahweh wanted a person alive wouldnt they simply survive the abortion?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: screwtape on June 24, 2013, 09:53:03 AM
I get the strong feeling that there are ignorant people out there who believe that a woman will flippantly get an abortion in between doing some shopping and getting her hair done.

I think the point about using abortion as birth control is that it is used when there is no case of rape, incest or some highly damaging birth defect.  It would be a situation where it is not necessary to the health of the woman to have it done.  A woman gets pregnant, does not want to have a baby for any of a variety of reasons, so she has an abortion. 

That does happen.  And I am totally fine with that.  I do not think it is done flippantly, but even if it is, I am totally fine with that.  I understand, though, that is not everyone's experience.

I think the whole argument of the pro-choice side is that you have a right to have something - anything - that is in your body, removed.  The rights of the thing inside your body do not trump your sovereignty over your own body.




As for yhwh and his plans, why does the forced-birth crowd assume the abortion is not part of his plan?  Why do they assume yhwh is not acting through the doctors who are performing these procedures?  Seems arrogant and self-righteous to me.


Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: epidemic on June 24, 2013, 10:31:58 AM
I'm definitely pro-choice, but it's an argument for which I can really sympathize with the beliefs and emotions on the opposite side.

I can not understand your position.  Personally I feel that no one is harmed beyond the decisons maker.  To me a human is more than a DNA sequence,  a human is a mind, with thoughts, dreams, desires, needs, wants and a sense of future/past.  I could care less if you terminate something prior to it having a cerebral cortex.  Yes it had the potential of possibly one day inventing interstellar travel or cure for cancer but I could say that every unrealized egg and sperm had the same potential  and every cell in your body could be used to create another life with the same potential.  My only concern in this world is do my actions impact a sentient being.






<snip>...But there are many women who use this as a form of birth control...<snip>

This. This is what seriously infuriates me about 'the abortion debate', that a woman would use abortion as a form of contraception. Although it has never happened to me, I simply cannot think of a more heart wrenching descision I would have to make if I were in that situation. It is NOT a simple procedure, it is invasive, and extremely traumatic. I get the strong feeling that there are ignorant people out there who believe that a woman will flippantly get an abortion in between doing some shopping and getting her hair done. Epidemic, you are being willfully ignorant and callous if you believe this to be the truth.

I by no means claim that there are not challenges to abortion,  it is an invasive proceedure with real mental/physical health consequences.  (side note abortion is statistically safer than child birth).  But the knowledge of the source of pregnancy is pretty well established and there most certainly are women who are serial abortion recipients.  I don't think the women do it for the fun of it,  but there are alternatives to pregnancy.

But I also have absoluetly no problem killing a lump of cells with no brain.  with out anthropomorphizing the glob of cells you can not show anyone is harmed by abortion.  People often try to personalize it with statements like "how would you feel if your mom and terminated you?"  I simply say I would not care because I never would have had the ability to think about it.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on June 24, 2013, 12:00:12 PM
On the topic of abortion, and recent news...

Miscarriages now punishable by years in prison, sometimes life (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/24/america-pregnant-women-murder-charges)

Thank you, TalAmeriban.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Seppuku on June 24, 2013, 06:03:49 PM
On the topic of abortion, and recent news...

Miscarriages now punishable by years in prison, sometimes life (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/24/america-pregnant-women-murder-charges)

Excuse my French, but

WHAT THE f**k?


Jesus, America scares me more and more and I don't envy the numerous sane Americans who have to put up with this kind of s**t. Having said that, I am not too surprised, I mean the West Memphis 3 happened. This kind of thing kinda makes it more infuriating when people dismiss 'evidence' as being something fictional, made-up, something that's a matter of opinion, because when applied to the real world it can be dangerous. Like in the URL they connected the death of the unborn child to a cocaine habit, without any evidence to support that was the cause of death. All they had evidence for was a drug addiction and that should have been her only convinction, surely?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Anfauglir on June 25, 2013, 02:23:01 AM
Assuming god is going to burn you in hell for performing abortion or getting an abortion.  If done for the right reason isn't abortion about the highest selfless act a human can be involved in.

It's good, but its not the best.  Normally you will only "save" one or two souls.

Far better, surely, to tour the hospitals of the world and chuck a grenade into that little room where all the new-borns are lined up for people to view (unless that's just in old sit-coms).  Each time you do that, you push a dozen or more straight to heaven.

I've yet to have any believer explain why this act would not be in the children's best interests, nor why the believer parents should not on balance be happy.  Sure - they lose a child in this insignificant mortal life, but they will be reunited with it in heaven, guaranteed, for ever.  With no risk that child might become an atheist and get hit by a bus and spend eternity in hell.

Surely its a win win all round?  'cept for me, of course, as I'll go to hell as the grenade-chucker.  But if doing what I do leads to so much good and happiness for so many people, will I really be punished for it?

- - - - -
DISCLAIMER FOR THE HARD OF THINKING.  I do not believe in an afterlife.  Therefore the logic of this argument fails for me.  I am NOT about to go off chucking grenades at babies!
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: wright on June 25, 2013, 03:39:30 AM
But the knowledge of the source of pregnancy is pretty well established and there most certainly are women who are serial abortion recipients.

Do you have any source for this claim, epidemic? It's one I've heard anti-choicers (which I don't think you are, for the record) make before. I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that they were just talking out of their asses. What can actually be documented about these serial aborters?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: William on June 25, 2013, 04:46:44 AM
If am religious and a firm believer in god and I decide to abort a fetus knowing full well I will receive ultimate punishment a sacrafice that rivals or surpasses that of jesus's time on the cross.

Absolutely fascinating question.  Since it involves disobeying one of the ten commandments, probably no obsequious believer will muster the courage to publicly endorse it as a good thing - they can't be seen to support it and thereby be complicit.  But wait, if somebody else (say an atheist) wants to abort heaps of fetuses (thereby sending themselves to hell) why would anyone who believes in god and heaven object (beyond token disapproval) to the fresh little souls flying straight home to eternal toe-sucking duty in heaven?

The point about it surpassing Jesus is awesome - it sure does because the sacrifice would be real :o  Jesus knew full well that death on the cross was very temporary and soon all his goodly Godly powers (e.g. flying like superman) would be restored.

The more one thinks about Christianity the more bizarre it becomes  :?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: epidemic on June 25, 2013, 03:10:15 PM
If am religious and a firm believer in god and I decide to abort a fetus knowing full well I will receive ultimate punishment a sacrafice that rivals or surpasses that of jesus's time on the cross.

Absolutely fascinating question.  Since it involves disobeying one of the ten commandments, probably no obsequious believer will muster the courage to publicly endorse it as a good thing - they can't be seen to support it and thereby be complicit.  But wait, if somebody else (say an atheist) wants to abort heaps of fetuses (thereby sending themselves to hell) why would anyone who believes in god and heaven object (beyond token disapproval) to the fresh little souls flying straight home to eternal toe-sucking duty in heaven?

The point about it surpassing Jesus is awesome - it sure does because the sacrifice would be real :o  Jesus knew full well that death on the cross was very temporary and soon all his goodly Godly powers (e.g. flying like superman) would be restored.

The more one thinks about Christianity the more bizarre it becomes  :?

Exactly.  Jesus new there was no risk.  Humans no matter how religious always have room to question at the very least where they are going upstairs or down.   Could you imagine just as you save a baby, a nun and a priest from a burning building  and as you go back to check for others  a roof beem lands on your legs burning you slowly alive and a thought slips into you mind I wonder if god is real and at that moment you croak.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on June 25, 2013, 03:42:44 PM
That made me laugh, I've wondered the same thing.

Isn't there some other weird "rule" about how the only unforgivable sin is to "deny the Holy Spirit"? And has anyone here EVER gotten a coherent explanation of just WTF the Holy Spirit actually IS? Followed by, how does one go about denying it?

Allowing for some flexibility on the definition of coherent doesn't help as much as you might think it would - I can get a coherent explanation of what Jesus is (ridiculous perhaps, but I can make sense of the gist of it), and the same goes for "God", providing I'm willing to take the time to drag it out of every individual believer I encounter (insert same paranthetic observation as above).

But the Holy Spirit? Seriously, what's the deal there? And why is "denying" it (whatever that means) the single most awful sin that can possibly be committed? With so many to choose from, why this as Numero Uno Very Worst Bad Thing For Which You Must Burn For Eternity?

I'm going to give myself a headache if I try to make sense of this...and I'm off-topic as well. I best get back to writing that damned essay I'm avoiding and studying for a final.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 25, 2013, 04:19:16 PM
Ahh, another abortion thread. I agree with the OP that if a person really believed in heaven and all that, they should become abortion providers and help send as many pre-born souls there as they can..... :o

If a fertile woman is having hetero sex on a regular basis, even as seldom as a few times a month, she will probably get pregnant, if she (and her partner) is not using a consistent form of contraception. Most of the time, she should not have the baby just because she becomes pregnant. But most of the time, she will.

The vast majority of women (60%) never have an abortion in their lives--they have babies instead. Most women I know who have had abortions have had one.[1] I have known of a few women (really messed up women on drugs, having random anonymous unprotected sex) having up to three abortions during their most messed-up years--mainly teens and 20's. I don't know if that would be considered having "serial abortions" considering that there are about 12 times a year that a woman can get pregnant, and a woman is fertile for about 35 years.[2] Ironically, the sex workers I have known--even the drug users--who had sex way more often and with more men than most women do, were some of the most responsible about birth control and seldom ended up needing abortions.  :?

If there are women in the US using abortion as a form of birth control (having 5, 6, 7 or more abortions) that would be pretty rare. In the old Soviet Union when women could not get birth control, it was common for a married woman to have 3 or 4 kids, 3 or 4 miscarriages, and ten or more abortions. That is nearly 20 pregnancies! Pretty extreme, and horrendous for a woman's body and emotional state. Few women would do that if there were other options.

Final point. Any woman who does have other options, but is so messed up mentally as to have three or more abortions, should not under any circumstances be encouraged to give birth to a child. She will be counseled by the abortion clinic (the staff tears their hair out over such women) and given as much birth control as she needs.

But if she still can't or won't use it, as a former social worker, I would recommend that she should keep on getting those abortions. At least that way she is only hurting herself. Anyone who really cares about babies and children would agree with me here.  :-\ :P
 1. More women probably should have abortions instead of children, but that is a personal opinion that I never shared with clients...I only counseled a reluctant woman to have an abortion once--her abusive husband had set her on fire and she found out she was pregnant while in the hospital geting skin grafts. Most of the time I tried to help women find other options, because they did not want to have an abortion.
 2. Theoretically, a really irresponsible woman could have up to 300 pregnancies and abortions. Viewed from that perspective, three does not seem that extreme.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Mooby on June 25, 2013, 06:49:12 PM
While you make a good point, note that abortions are rare.
>20% of pregnancies is not "rare."

Abortions are mainly used for risky pregnancies; not as a substitute for contraception.
<8% for fetal health, maternal health, rape, and incest combined is not "mainly."
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on June 25, 2013, 08:39:26 PM
Deja-vu..... or something like that.

Abortion Facts courtesy of Guttmacher Institute and Jag's forced nosiness into other people's sex lives for a whole semester:
*   Viability –
*   no state permits unrestricted abortion past 24 weeks
*   survival rate of premature infants:
•   2% of babies born at 22 weeks
•   19%  of babies born at 23 weeks
•   40% of babies born at 24 weeks
•   66% of babies born at 25 weeks
•   77% of babies born at 26 weeks


*   Abortion rate percentages by date:
•   61.8% before 9 weeks
•   17.1% weeks 9-10
•   9.1% weeks 11-12
*   This accounts for 88% of all abortions performed in the US, long before the fetus has any chance of survival outside the womb if miscarriage occurs instead
•   6.6% weeks13-15
•   3.8% weeks 16-20
•   Only 1.5% during week 21 or later
•   Banned in all states past 24 weeks unless rape of life of mother exemption applies

I've gathered a huge amount of data and statistics on this topic. If we're really going to discuss this again, I'm prepared to post every last bit of it. To be clear to everyone, that's not meant as a threat, it's more like a warning  :P
 
Edit: there is no significance to the occasional *; something went screwy when I posted and I went for the easy fix.



Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 26, 2013, 04:17:28 PM
^^^Guttmacher is excellent --good research and stats without sensationalism. One of my favorite organizations, along with Planned Parenthood.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: One Above All on June 26, 2013, 04:19:12 PM
<snip>

I'd give you a reply, but I think Jag was more eloquent than I could ever be.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on June 27, 2013, 06:07:32 PM
As screwtape has indicated that I should go ahead and data dump, keep an eye out in the next day or so. I just finished another final - school will be easier for the next few weeks, as I'm down to one class now. I can take the time to get the information into a coherent format and post it for posterity.

Stay tuned.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jaimehlers on July 16, 2013, 09:58:00 AM
Well I disagree with the absoluteness of your comment,  women are the only ones with a choice, 1 deciding to have sex, deciding to not use enough birth control, and finally the ultimate choice of continuation of the pregnancy (well that is excluding rape.
Yes, because men only think with their reproductive organs and don't have the choice whether to engage in sex or not and don't have the choice to use birth control.  Excuse my sarcasm, but I did find your statement to be fairly offensive, even if it was unthinkingly so.  One of the problems with society in general is that it assumes that men are pretty much just like the stereotype I sarcastically described, and thus women are the ones who have to refuse sex and have to use birth control, not to mention they tend to get blamed for getting pregnant (especially among religious people).
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Mooby on July 20, 2013, 01:01:40 PM
<snip>

I'd give you a reply, but I think Jag was more eloquent than I could ever be.
Jag didn't address a single word of my post.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: One Above All on July 20, 2013, 01:21:10 PM
Jag didn't address a single word of my post.

You posted statistics, Jag posted statistics. You didn't post sources. Works for me.[1]
Smite me if'n you dare.[2]
 1. In other words, unless you post actual sources, I can and will disregard your post as nothing more than baseless claims. Jag posted her source, albeit without an actual link.
 2. Quoting Scruffy from Futurama; not an actual dare.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Mooby on July 20, 2013, 01:41:57 PM
You posted statistics, Jag posted statistics. You didn't post sources. Works for me.[1]
Smite me if'n you dare.[2]
 1. In other words, unless you post actual sources, I can and will disregard your post as nothing more than baseless claims. Jag posted her source, albeit without an actual link.
 2. Quoting Scruffy from Futurama; not an actual dare.
You posted two claims:

You did not post sources for either of your claims.

I replied with some unsourced (but factual) statistics to indicate to you (and others) that your claims are wrong.  I do not intend to make any further claims with those statistics, so I see little need to go hunt down the sites again.

If you would like to ignore my unsourced statistics, feel free.  However, the fact remains that you still have made two bare assertions, and at least one person in this thread (me) has expressed high skepticism towards their validity.  The burden of proof is yours if you want those assertions to overcome the skepticism and become established as valid.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: One Above All on July 20, 2013, 02:26:31 PM
You posted two claims:
  • Abortions are rare
  • Abortions are used for mainly risky pregnancies

You did not post sources for either of your claims.
<snip>

Quite true. I do not expect you to believe me without my sources. However, I honestly don't care either way.
If I happen to come across some reliable sources that contradict my views, I will become skeptical of my own view; perhaps even reject it entirely.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on July 20, 2013, 03:03:52 PM
While you make a good point, note that abortions are rare.
>20% of pregnancies is not "rare."

Abortions are mainly used for risky pregnancies; not as a substitute for contraception.
<8% for fetal health, maternal health, rape, and incest combined is not "mainly."

I suppose elective abortions are "rare" compared to pregnancies that survive miscarriage and make it to term. Most women who get pregnant and don't have a miscarriage do have the baby. Very few women worldwide have more abortions, on average, than they have children, and that in rare cases like in the Soviet Union when contraception was not available.

And most abortions worldwide (legal and illegal) are because women do not want to be pregnant and have a baby. If they do not want a baby at that point in their lives for whatever reason, they should not have to have one.  A woman who wants to have an abortion does not want to be a mother. A woman who does not want to be a mother should not be one. This seems so obvious to me, but a lot of people clearly do not agree.  :?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Traveler on July 20, 2013, 08:36:33 PM
...
You posted two claims:
  • Abortions are rare
  • Abortions are used for mainly risky pregnancies
...

Late term abortions are extremely rare and are mostly used to save the life of the woman, or to prevent the birth of a severely damaged fetus.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on July 21, 2013, 12:22:06 PM
...
You posted two claims:
  • Abortions are rare
  • Abortions are used for mainly risky pregnancies
...

Late term abortions are extremely rare and are mostly used to save the life of the woman, or to prevent the birth of a severely damaged fetus.

Yep. Most women, by 6 months in, have come to terms (so to speak) with the fact of being pregnant and have made whatever adjustments they need to make.[1] The idea that visibly pregnant women are staggering into clinics in droves for elective abortions at 24+ weeks is absurd. That happens sometimes in China, but it is not usually voluntary at that point. Like I said, do we want the government determining who has a baby and who doesn't?
 1. I still think that women should be able to decide that they don't want a baby even at 6 months. Who else, if not her, should make that decision? The government?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: epidemic on August 29, 2013, 03:12:05 PM
And most abortions worldwide (legal and illegal) are because women do not want to be pregnant and have a baby. If they do not want a baby at that point in their lives for whatever reason, they should not have to have one.  A woman who wants to have an abortion does not want to be a mother. A woman who does not want to be a mother should not be one. This seems so obvious to me, but a lot of people clearly do not agree.  :?

I for one agree with this.:)
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: epidemic on August 29, 2013, 03:43:05 PM
hey natlegend,

just noticed you did not respond to my post 13#  I answered your complaint that I was an uncaring person.   Do you care to respond:)
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on August 29, 2013, 08:43:58 PM
I just came back from a visit to a Catholic Latin American country where abortion is illegal. Women and girls there have died from childbirth complications where an abortion would have saved at least one of the lives involved.

I know older women there who have had 12-14 pregnancies, with 8-10 living children. Some of these women have been pregnant nearly every year of their fertile lives-- they describe that as having "all their children", meaning they had all the children god saw fit to send them. Clearly, those women had no possibilities of education past 6th or 8th grade, or jobs outside the home that paid decent money.

Nowadays hardly any woman there wants to have "all their children". They don't want more than 2-3 children, because they want to have better lives than their mothers and grandmothers. They are trying to earn enough money to send their kids to college. They use birth control. And, of course there are abortions, but women have to take their chances with doctors willing to break the law. And not all of these are back alley operations-- they are legit doctors who do abortions secretly after hours in their offices. They are not getting rich from this work, because most of their patients are poor women. Rich women can get around the law easier.

I admire many of these medical people, because they are going against cultural rules to help women and are taking their chances with the law. And jail in that country is no picnic--prisons are packed, your relatives have to bring you food and the smell of urine everywhere is so strong it makes your eyes burn. (Don't ask me how I know this!)

I asked one doctor about the religious ramifications of doing illegal abortions. He said he did what he thought was best for his patients and would have to face god's judgment when he died. That's a brave man.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on August 29, 2013, 09:32:05 PM
nogodsforme,

Too bad those against abortions here don't care about your story. They just see it as left-wing propaganda, whether it's true or not.

They also don't care if they survive after they born: just that they are born. If they die after being born then it's a part of "god's plan", abortion isn't.

They do not care. At first I thought it was that they had to bring all people to Biblegod  but, these days, I don't think that any longer, I think they just adamantly believe that if they don't save these unborn babies THEY will pay the price.

But then again: their religion probably just makes them blind to the reality of the world, which is not the reality.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: epidemic on August 30, 2013, 01:29:00 PM
my friend says that each baby is a fully vested human from conception all the way to death.  I contend that he and virtually all other christians obviously don't feel this way.  If they saw a woman on the street pointing a gun at her baby they would risk life and limb to save that child. Even though they know that babies are being killed in abortion clinics around the country they do not take such drastic action.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on August 30, 2013, 03:39:45 PM
^^^Does your friend think that every human should have food, shelter, and health care from conception until death? The right to vote? To be counted in the census? Or just the right to exist?

And what kind of world does you friend really want to live in? A world where every female over 12 has to report to a government agency every month for a pregnancy test? Where miscarriages are treated as murder until there is proof that it was unintentional? Where female mortality is higher than it is now? &) :P
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on August 30, 2013, 04:30:03 PM
my friend says that each baby is a fully vested human from conception all the way to death.  I contend that he and virtually all other christians obviously don't feel this way.  If they saw a woman on the street pointing a gun at her baby they would risk life and limb to save that child. Even though they know that babies are being killed in abortion clinics around the country they do not take such drastic action.

Why start at conception. We should start at "potential". Each female child born has the capacity to have X number of kids. Starting at about age 12. Some even sooner. If it is only the baby that is important, shouldn't we require that every woman of birthing age start whipping out the kids ASAP, and for as long as possible. If it is only babies that count, our whole society should be built around there constantly pregnant baby-makers and everyones effort, in every way, should be going towards generating more children, as fast as possible and as often as possible. If every pregnancy can be shortened a couple of months by premature cesarean birth, it should be, so that the woman can get pregnant again sooner.

In other words, every woman should be required by law to have absolutely as many children as her body can manage. She should have no choice in the matter. She should be tied to a bed for life if she disagrees, and forced to have kids, no matter how much she doesn't want to do it. And if it kills her, tough.

And every man, woman and child should be involved in being sure that every woman of child bearing age is in some stage or reproduction, and we should feed, clothe and otherwise tend to these baby-factories 24/7 for our entire lives. Because if each child is that important, nothing else should matter.

If you disagree with that, then you have the equivalent of a pro-abortion stance. Because you are against forced pregnancies.

So your differences with pro-abortion advocates are smaller than you thought.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Rare96ws6 on September 01, 2013, 12:27:07 AM
God has aborted more babies than all the women ever to have done so put together;(
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Graybeard on September 02, 2013, 03:48:17 PM
Assuming god is going to burn you in hell for performing abortion or getting an abortion.  If done for the right reason isn't abortion about the highest selfless act a human can be involved in
I think the question is basically flawed. God approves of abortions. I have never understood why so-called "fundies"[1] never bother to read what their religion is based upon.

Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life. http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/abortion.html

    If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. -- Exodus 21:22-23

The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.

    And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. -- Leviticus 27:6

Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons.

    Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16

God sometimes approves of killing fetuses.

    And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. -- Numbers 31:15-17
    (Some of the non-virgin women must have been pregnant. They would have been killed along with their unborn fetuses.)

The article goes on with  more examples. But omits the part where, if you want your wife to have an abortion because she has been unfaithful, you should take her to a priest and he will do the job (for a fee.) (Numbers 5:12-28).

As usual, pro-lifers are hypocritical and have no idea what God wants.
 1. read the deluded and ignorant
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: BillyM67 on September 04, 2013, 01:02:47 PM
It is a personal choice...bottom line.

Couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: epidemic on September 05, 2013, 07:12:39 AM
my friend says that each baby is a fully vested human from conception all the way to death.  I contend that he and virtually all other christians obviously don't feel this way.  If they saw a woman on the street pointing a gun at her baby they would risk life and limb to save that child. Even though they know that babies are being killed in abortion clinics around the country they do not take such drastic action.

Why start at conception. We should start at "potential". Each female child born has the capacity to have X number of kids. Starting at about age 12. Some even sooner. If it is only the baby that is important, shouldn't we require that every woman of birthing age start whipping out the kids ASAP, and for as long as possible. If it is only babies that count, our whole society should be built around there constantly pregnant baby-makers and everyones effort, in every way, should be going towards generating more children, as fast as possible and as often as possible. If every pregnancy can be shortened a couple of months by premature cesarean birth, it should be, so that the woman can get pregnant again sooner.

In other words, every woman should be required by law to have absolutely as many children as her body can manage. She should have no choice in the matter. She should be tied to a bed for life if she disagrees, and forced to have kids, no matter how much she doesn't want to do it. And if it kills her, tough.

And every man, woman and child should be involved in being sure that every woman of child bearing age is in some stage or reproduction, and we should feed, clothe and otherwise tend to these baby-factories 24/7 for our entire lives. Because if each child is that important, nothing else should matter.

If you disagree with that, then you have the equivalent of a pro-abortion stance. Because you are against forced pregnancies.

So your differences with pro-abortion advocates are smaller than you thought.

I have tried the potential human argument with my friend.  He beat around the bush and never really answered that.  He does however kinda believe that as long as it is natural a woman can shed her eggs with no harm or foul (as long as no one enjoys themselves natural egg sheding is just fine).  A man can not waste his seed unless it is by nocturnal emissions (again no enjoyment is supposed to be had unless there is risk)
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on September 05, 2013, 08:52:27 AM
I have tried the potential human argument with my friend.  He beat around the bush and never really answered that.  He does however kinda believe that as long as it is natural a woman can shed her eggs with no harm or foul (as long as no one enjoys themselves natural egg sheding is just fine).  A man can not waste his seed unless it is by nocturnal emissions (again no enjoyment is supposed to be had unless there is risk)

I have a very christian friend who is very much anti-abortion.. Yet when we go to the big city together (big as in Montana. Missoula has under 70,000 people) he spend most of his time driving around and complaining about all the people. There are too many of them! They are ruining everything and crowding the roads, etc. But when I try to connect abortion and over population, he simply says "That has nothing to do with it" and he refuses to discuss that aspect of the issue.

In other words, he laments the millions of abortions per year and hates the thousands of people that make is day worse simply by being, and he doesn't think they should be connected in any discussion.

Strange comes in many forms.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on September 05, 2013, 06:21:55 PM
Far more pregnancies are prevented by birth control than ended by abortion. Women don't really have lots of abortions if contraception is available. Abortion is not every woman's first go-to for family planning, despite what anti-abortion folks say. Most women never have a single abortion, some women have one in their lifetime and a few women have more than one.  In fact, far more women have babies when they get pregnant than have abortions, even when the pregnancy was unplanned and/or unwanted.

Why would a woman choose the more unpleasant, more expensive and more difficult option of going to a medical provider and enduring some invasive, painful procedure instead of taking one pill every day? Women would prefer not to have any abortions, and most women try to avoid them. It boggles the mind how some people think--who are these women who like to have abortions so much that they need to be prevented from doing so by restrictive laws?

As for the friend who thinks US cities are too crowded: he should take a trip to a city in Asia, Africa or Latin America. And if people had every single baby it was possible to have, your friend would be complaining instead about the lack of soylent green crackers in his ration package. :P
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on September 06, 2013, 12:13:59 PM
Because they think with their holy book and not their brains.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 22, 2013, 09:23:08 AM
*First post after stalking for a few months.*

IMO, abortion is kind, in a way.
But being that heaven is nonexistent, and that fetus's are incapable of advanced thought, its neither bad nor good.
Perhaps good if the fetus is a result of rape.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on September 22, 2013, 06:34:06 PM
*First post after stalking for a few months.*

IMO, abortion is kind, in a way.
But being that heaven is nonexistent, and that fetus's are incapable of advanced thought, its neither bad nor good.
Perhaps good if the fetus is a result of rape.

I tend to agree with part of your post: that abortion is neither bad nor good in an absolute sense. Is giving birth, getting breast implants, undergoing a root canal or having open heart surgery bad or good? Obviously it would depend on the people involved and the circumstances of the event. That is why the people involved, particularly the person with the fetus inside her, should decide.

If the pregnant person is a mentally handicapped 13-year-old who was impregnated by her father, I would say giving birth is a bad thing--making abortion a good thing. If the person getting breast implants is a 35-year-old woman who just had a double mastectomy, I would judge it a good thing. There was recently a case of a corrupt dentist who did hundreds of root canals on patients who did not need them, just for the insurance money.  :o Very Bad Thing. A 95-year-old undergoing heart surgery where the recovery prospects are poor and the anesthesia alone will probably kill him? Bad thing.

But other people might disagree with me. Clearly, the criminal dentist did. :P
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Aeron on September 27, 2013, 08:30:35 PM
Assuming god is going to burn you in hell for performing abortion or getting an abortion.  If done for the right reason isn't abortion about the highest selfless act a human can be involved in.

If am religious and a firm believer in god and I decide to abort a fetus knowing full well I will receive ultimate punishment a sacrafice that rivals or surpasses that of jesus's time on the cross.  By aborting a fetus I give a soul a one way pass to heaven, that being need ever risk hell for some transgression like the crime of not believing.  So in essence I sacrifice my everlasting soul so that a human need never risk ultimate suffering.

An abortion doctor who does this save 10's of thousands of souls in his lifetime.

Well, first things first, the bible nor "god" say anything in the bible about abortion. The biblical writers never talked about when life started, nor did they know how it even happened. It's hard to ask biblical texts the modern question, "when does human life begin?" because the Bible has a very different understanding of human reproduction. Biblical writers don't talk about sperm fertilizing eggs. They talk about male "seed" planted in fertile female ground. Just as a seed becomes a plant when it emerges from the ground, so too a man's planted seed becomes another human being when it emerges from the womb.

Even the biblical laws about miscarrying because a woman was injured by a man was more about property loss, not murder. Just refer to Exodus 21:22-25. Abortion is about what is right for the person having it done,
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on September 27, 2013, 09:52:19 PM
Actually it says this on the matter of when life begins:
Genesis 2:7 "He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and it was then that the man
became a living being”.
And this:
Ezekiel 37:5&6 “Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter
you, and you shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh
to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall
live; and you shall know that I am the Lord.”

So according to these two passages, life begins at first breath.

I'm pretty sure there are more, and sometimes you get back a passage about God knowing you in the womb, I can't recall chapter and verse though.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on September 29, 2013, 04:30:29 AM
Actually it says this on the matter of when life begins:
Genesis 2:7 "He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and it was then that the man
became a living being”.
And this:
Ezekiel 37:5&6 “Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter
you, and you shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh
to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall
live; and you shall know that I am the Lord.”

So according to these two passages, life begins at first breath.

I'm pretty sure there are more, and sometimes you get back a passage about God knowing you in the womb, I can't recall chapter and verse though.

One thing i find funny about that verse, god does not give him organs, fingernails, hair, teeth, etc.
Therefore Adam died the second he lived, as he lacked a brain...
Thus life starts at death? What?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 28, 2013, 12:18:05 AM
While you make a good point, note that abortions are rare. Women don't like abortions any more than the fundies do. They just don't have any other choice.

You always have a choice.  You could have it and give it up for adoption.  Or try to raise her yourself. 

Your logic is similar to somebody saying they don't like slavery but they don't want to ban it. 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 28, 2013, 12:35:44 AM
And now the troll spills onto another thread.

Yes, there is always a choice, DrT.  Sometimes the choices are nauseating.  Offering another choice is not inherently wrong, just because other choices already exist.

Slaves have choices, too, btw.  They can work, or die.  The presence of a choice doesn't make them free, nor does it mean that offering more choices is wrong.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 28, 2013, 01:27:53 AM
And now the troll spills onto another thread.

Yes, there is always a choice, DrT.  Sometimes the choices are nauseating.  Offering another choice is not inherently wrong, just because other choices already exist.

Slaves have choices, too, btw.  They can work, or die.  The presence of a choice doesn't make them free, nor does it mean that offering more choices is wrong.

what choice does the fetus/baby get.

Do you think the fetus feels no pain when it is aborted? 

my slavery analogy was to point out how the "necessary evil" logic used to be applied by white people to that issue,  and the logic used to defend abortion rights is basically it is a necessary evil. 

how it is trolling to state an opinion on an opinion board.  my opinion is non-binding.  I've got no power to stop anybody from having an abortion.   i'm like that guy on Seinfield who was against abortion and Elaine dumped him b/c of it.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 28, 2013, 01:36:00 AM
What choice do the plants in your garden get?

"Choice" only applies to creatures with minds.  A zygote does not have the necessary hardware for a mind.  As an engineer, you should be able to grasp that.

And I didn't say you were trolling this thread, just that you're a troll.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 28, 2013, 01:45:06 AM
What choice do the plants in your garden get?

"Choice" only applies to creatures with minds.  A zygote does not have the necessary hardware for a mind.  As an engineer, you should be able to grasp that.

And I didn't say you were trolling this thread, just that you're a troll.

what if u are wrong though about the fetus being non-life.  Your mistaken belief and others like you will have sanctioned thousands of fetuses/babies to death.  My beliefs on abortion can't result in something horrific like that if I turn out to be wrong.

Consider this:   Imagine if everything about men and women was the same, except men had the babies.  I think nearly ever single woman would be against abortion at that point given woman's natural nurturer status.     

Also, abortion doesn't have anything to do with religion.   It is a question of ethics and plenty of atheists oppose it.   
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 28, 2013, 01:54:09 AM
If you're going to pretend that I said something different from what I actually said when responding to my post, then I'm still going to go with "troll" until you stop that pretense and actually engage in some form of honesty.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 28, 2013, 01:56:41 AM
What choice do the plants in your garden get?

"Choice" only applies to creatures with minds.  A zygote does not have the necessary hardware for a mind.  As an engineer, you should be able to grasp that.

And I didn't say you were trolling this thread, just that you're a troll.

what if u are wrong though about the fetus being non-life.  Your mistaken belief and others like you will have sanctioned thousands of fetuses/babies to death.  My beliefs on abortion can't result in something horrific like that if I turn out to be wrong.

Consider this:   Imagine if everything about men and women was the same, except men had the babies.  I think nearly ever single woman would be against abortion at that point given woman's natural nurturer status.     

Also, abortion doesn't have anything to do with religion.   It is a question of ethics and plenty of atheists oppose it.   

If men had the babies why wouldn't then the men have the trait of being the nurturer? Why, in your analogy, do you presuppose the women would have it? They most likely have that trait now because they are the ones who give birth, who are the ones who become pregnant.

You're all kinds of "idiot", aren't you?

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 28, 2013, 01:59:20 AM
Also, just to add: most people are against abortion. But "abortion" isn't about abortion. It's about telling a girl/woman that they don't know what to do with their bodies but this group over here does. It's politics and control.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Anfauglir on October 28, 2013, 02:17:22 AM
What choice do the plants in your garden get?
"Choice" only applies to creatures with minds.  A zygote does not have the necessary hardware for a mind. 

what if u are wrong though about the fetus being non-life. 

Like Azd says, I'm intrigued as to why you changed "creatures without minds" to "non-life".  Could t perhaps be the case that your emotional response is bypassing your reason?

Consider this:   Imagine if everything about men and women was the same, except men had the babies.  I think nearly ever single woman would be against abortion at that point given woman's natural nurturer status.   

And again, I'll echo Nam.  Your point here seems to be "if the people who had evolved over thousands of years to be nurturing of babies didn't have the babies, they'd want to nurture babies".  And I can't argue with that at all.  If men suddenly started giving birth today, we likely would see a shift in opinion.  HOWEVER, as I said above, that simply means that a different emotional response set will come to the fore.  It doesn't mean that suddenly the collection of cells will experience pain, or become sentient, which is surely the point?

Also, abortion doesn't have anything to do with religion.   It is a question of ethics and plenty of atheists oppose it.
Yup.  But THIS thread was about how - for someone who truly believes in a good afterlife - abortion would indeed be the kindest thing,    as it would guarantee that "soul" immediate and eternal happiness in the afterlife.  It would eliminate all the troubles of this world, and remove the danger that soul would be led astray and end up in eternal torment.  Hence the question "Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?"
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 28, 2013, 09:14:46 AM
Also, just to add: most people are against abortion. But "abortion" isn't about abortion. It's about telling a girl/woman that they don't know what to do with their bodies but this group over here does. It's politics and control.

-Nam

The fetus isn't the woman's body.  That is why this is a controversial subject.   If these women wanted to abort one of their kidneys or another organ,  pretty sure nobody would care. 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 28, 2013, 09:21:01 AM
What choice do the plants in your garden get?

"Choice" only applies to creatures with minds.  A zygote does not have the necessary hardware for a mind.  As an engineer, you should be able to grasp that.

And I didn't say you were trolling this thread, just that you're a troll.

what if u are wrong though about the fetus being non-life.  Your mistaken belief and others like you will have sanctioned thousands of fetuses/babies to death.  My beliefs on abortion can't result in something horrific like that if I turn out to be wrong.

Consider this:   Imagine if everything about men and women was the same, except men had the babies.  I think nearly ever single woman would be against abortion at that point given woman's natural nurturer status.     

Also, abortion doesn't have anything to do with religion.   It is a question of ethics and plenty of atheists oppose it.   

If men had the babies why wouldn't then the men have the trait of being the nurturer? Why, in your analogy, do you presuppose the women would have it? They most likely have that trait now because they are the ones who give birth, who are the ones who become pregnant.

You're all kinds of "idiot", aren't you?

-Nam

My scenario says men and women stay the same except the men get pregnant, the women don't.   We can stipulate the men that also become nurturers because many are anyway.    My point was about how society excuse something when females are involved that they wouldn't if it was men.  This is because men do not feel comfortable criticizing something women do.  Women are elevated in our society.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Mrjason on October 28, 2013, 09:29:16 AM
If these women wanted to abort one of their kidneys or another organ,  pretty sure nobody would care.

don't be so daft. the removal of human tissue is one of the most highly regulated activities in the world.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 28, 2013, 09:32:01 AM
Like Azd says, I'm intrigued as to why you changed "creatures without minds" to "non-life".  Could t perhaps be the case that your emotional response is bypassing your reason?
What is difference between creatures without minds to non-life?  You are basically saying this thing is a collection of cells, a non-person, pseudo life at best.
I  think majority of fetuses have a heart, nervous system, brain, developed limbs, etc by time they are aborted.  Some people even support partial birth abortion and I think some even support abortion outside of the womb when it is botched prior to birth. 

Quote
Yup.  But THIS thread was about how - for someone who truly believes in a good afterlife - abortion would indeed be the kindest thing,    as it would guarantee that "soul" immediate and eternal happiness in the afterlife.  It would eliminate all the troubles of this world, and remove the danger that soul would be led astray and end up in eternal torment.  Hence the question "Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?"

Seems like a weird and creepy thing to say,  especially since you don't believe in the afterlife.  It does seem like religious people live in your brain, rent free.  Or maybe you are looking for ways to assuage your guilt.    I always thought the line was "I personally think abortion is wrong, but......"    This seems to be "I think abortion is pretty awesome because......."
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 28, 2013, 11:02:04 AM
What is difference between creatures without minds to non-life?

Well, see, creatures without minds are still alive. Take plants for instance.  They don't have minds.  But they aren't "non-life" - they're alive.

You really needed this to be explained to you?  Really?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 28, 2013, 12:05:28 PM
Also, just to add: most people are against abortion. But "abortion" isn't about abortion. It's about telling a girl/woman that they don't know what to do with their bodies but this group over here does. It's politics and control.

-Nam

The fetus isn't the woman's body.  That is why this is a controversial subject.   If these women wanted to abort one of their kidneys or another organ,  pretty sure nobody would care. 

You are one of the most inanely stupid people I have come across in a long time. Please go to the edge of this website, and jump off.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: screwtape on October 28, 2013, 01:13:26 PM
The fetus isn't the woman's body.  That is why this is a controversial subject.   If these women wanted to abort one of their kidneys or another organ,  pretty sure nobody would care.

That's the point, DrTroll.  A person, even a woman, should have the right to have something removed from her own body if she wants.  You are saying she should be forced to give birth.  And given that carrying a child to term is 14.6 times more likely to result in the woman's death than an abortion, your position is morally unjustifiable.[1] 
 1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22270271 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22270271)
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 28, 2013, 01:35:49 PM
The fetus isn't the woman's body.  That is why this is a controversial subject.   If these women wanted to abort one of their kidneys or another organ,  pretty sure nobody would care.

That's the point, DrTroll.  A person, even a woman, should have the right to have something removed from her own body if she wants.  You are saying she should be forced to give birth.  And given that carrying a child to term is 14.6 times more likely to result in the woman's death than an abortion, your position is morally unjustifiable.[1]
 1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22270271 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22270271)

well to be fair, I will support abortion if the mother will perform it herself.   I think right now it is like going to the dentist for these women.

But it isn't true abortion is safe and there is a strong possibility the woman ends up sterilized and other problems, although it wouldn't be that bad if they were sterilized given they wouldn't be able to abort future babies.   lol
Most abortion doctors seem kind of shady like that guy in PA who is going to jail.  Doesn't seem like any top doctor would want to abort fetuses all day.

I think most people will give exceptions for women who were raped / incest/ possible death of mother in childbirth.   etc 

Abortion really is the civil rights issue of our generation, much like slavery and segregation were civil rights issues of previous decades.  History will remember us for what we do.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 28, 2013, 01:45:12 PM
DT,

Many people consider me a mean, vile asshole. And I agree with them: I am those things from time to time but in saying that: you're worse than I am, people like you are worse than I am.

I have charm, you do not. When I read your posts I see an unintelligent Neanderthal-but then I think: I am insulting the Neanderthal.

Any longer of reading your posts my Warning level just may go up.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 28, 2013, 01:47:37 PM
DT,

Many people consider me a mean, vile asshole. And I agree with them: I am those things from time to time but in saying that: you're worse than I am, people like you are worse than I am.

I have charm, you do not. When I read your posts I see an unintelligent Neanderthal-but then I think: I am insulting the Neanderthal.

Any longer of reading your posts my Warning level just may go up.

-Nam

I debate ideas.  Personality stuff I leave to Dr. Phil.

Did you fight in Vietnam?  If so, I thank you for your service.   
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Astreja on October 28, 2013, 02:15:21 PM
The fetus isn't the woman's body.

Neither is the penis of a rapist.  If it's there without the woman's explicit consent, IMO she has an absolute and irrevocable right to rid herself of it.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 28, 2013, 02:24:11 PM
What is difference between creatures without minds to non-life?

Well, see, creatures without minds are still alive. Take plants for instance.  They don't have minds.  But they aren't "non-life" - they're alive.

You really needed this to be explained to you?  Really?

I am genuinely curious as to the answer to this question.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: screwtape on October 28, 2013, 02:28:00 PM
well to be fair, I will support abortion if the mother will perform it herself.   

That is one of the stupidest things I've heard this month.  Are you and skeptic54768 in some kind of competition? 

Does that mean you support the morning after pill aka Plan B?  How about ru486?

I think right now it is like going to the dentist for these women.

what exactly does that mean?  having an abortion is like having a tooth pulled?  People are nervous before having an abortion? please clarify.

But it isn't true abortion is safe

I didn't say it was safe.  I said a woman is 14 times more likely to die carrying an infant to term than she is having an abortions.  But relatively speaking, it is extremely safe.  I linked NIH data.  Data is what counts. 

and there is a strong possibility the woman ends up sterilized and other problems,

what exactly is a "strong possiblity"?  give me data and back it up with a reliable source.  The blaze, fox "news" and anti-abortion organizations do not qualify.  Not coincidentally, those are the only places I have found that suggest abortions regularly cause sterilization.  The mayo clinic site says nothing about it, suggesting that it is a remote possiblity.

I have reports that say illegal abortions cause sterilization, but nothing about propers ones done in a clinic.

although it wouldn't be that bad if they were sterilized given they wouldn't be able to abort future babies.   lol

fuck you, you insensitive prick.

Most abortion doctors seem kind of shady like that guy in PA who is going to jail.

Most?  what would you know about it?  How many have you met?  How do you know them?  How about the one who was murdered in his church? 

Doesn't seem like any top doctor would want to abort fetuses all day.

maybe because they fear being murdered by xian taliban assholes with attitudes like yours.

Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 28, 2013, 02:33:22 PM
DT,

Many people consider me a mean, vile asshole. And I agree with them: I am those things from time to time but in saying that: you're worse than I am, people like you are worse than I am.

I have charm, you do not. When I read your posts I see an unintelligent Neanderthal-but then I think: I am insulting the Neanderthal.

Any longer of reading your posts my Warning level just may go up.

-Nam

I debate ideas.  Personality stuff I leave to Dr. Phil.

Did you fight in Vietnam?  If so, I thank you for your service.   

You don't debate anything. This is you:

"I am right, you are wrong. Everything you say to me I ignore because I am right, and you are wrong. I may be close-minded but I know the truth because I am right, and you are wrong. I have a huge mancrush on Behe because I am right, and you are wrong. I know science is a fallacy because I am right, and you are wrong. Ha Ha Ha because I am right, and you are wrong. I post irrefutable evidence by biased people because I am right, and you are wrong. ID is not Creationism even though you proved it is because I am right, and you are wrong..."

That's not debating. When you debate a position you argue the good/bad points. With people like you, it's the same as talking to a wall: no reply back.

Moron.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 28, 2013, 02:33:37 PM
What is difference between creatures without minds to non-life?

Well, see, creatures without minds are still alive. Take plants for instance.  They don't have minds.  But they aren't "non-life" - they're alive.

You really needed this to be explained to you?  Really?

I am genuinely curious as to the answer to this question.

without minds, they wouldn't be human life.  Nuance.   Obviously nobody would care if it was just a plant in the womb. 

Fetuses react violently when they are being aborted.  They seem to be feeling something, I assume pain.   
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 28, 2013, 02:39:19 PM
What is difference between creatures without minds to non-life?

Well, see, creatures without minds are still alive. Take plants for instance.  They don't have minds.  But they aren't "non-life" - they're alive.

You really needed this to be explained to you?  Really?

I am genuinely curious as to the answer to this question.

without minds, they wouldn't be human life.  Nuance.   Obviously nobody would care if it was just a plant in the womb. 

Fetuses react violently when they are being aborted.  They seem to be feeling something, I assume pain.   

You assume a lot. Do you have any non-biased evidence to support this "fact" you say is an assumption?

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 28, 2013, 02:40:46 PM
without minds, they wouldn't be human life.   Nuance.

So a fertilized egg is not human life, to you.  A zygote is not human life, to you.  Is that truly the case?

Obviously nobody would care if it was just a plant in the womb.

Sure they would.  The important thing is to make sure that the woman is punished for having non-procreative sex.  It's a religious thing.  Unwanted child-birth is a convenient, "natural" punishment.  This is why anti-abortion folks so often talk about how the woman needs to be held accountable for her actions (ie. having sex) and should have to face the consequences.  It's about retribution against her.  The pregnancy is merely an effective tool for achieving this.

Fetuses react violently when they are being aborted.  They seem to be feeling something, I assume pain.

So you're not against abortion up to the fetal stage, then.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on October 28, 2013, 04:16:45 PM
Dr Tesla,

You are just making crap up--have you ever spoken to any women about their abortions?  The medical statistics and the anecdotal evidence do not support your statements. Most elective abortions happen at the same time most miscarriages happen-- in the first three months. There are not very many women having elective abortions at 6 months or more into the pregnancy! Late abortions are most often for health reasons and are tragic for all concerned, because that woman wanted the child, maybe had names picked out, had bought baby clothes.  :'(

I have known several women who had elective abortions.[1]  Women who choose abortion have different life circumstances and different reasons for having an abortion. What they all have in common was, at that point in her life she did not want to have a baby.

Maybe she had several other kids to raise and could not face another pregnancy; maybe she was a drug addict; maybe she was a child prostitute pregnant by her pimp; maybe she was homeless and living on the street; maybe she was in her 40's and had health problems; maybe she had two part-time jobs but no insurance; maybe she was raped by her mother's boyfriend; maybe she was undocumented and was afraid of losing her job; maybe she was just plain mentally messed up--but together enough to know she should not have a baby.

Or maybe she was a stupid, silly over-sexed slut who dresses like a video ho and has drunken one-night stands with different men every night--isn't that the stereotype? Scheduling her monthly abortion between her hair and nail appointments. If you think women are so unthinking and careless-- you should not trust them to properly care for a pregnancy, let alone care for a child. What would you do with such a woman-- imprison her and force her to give birth and then take away the child? And do it every time she gets pregnant? Or would you seriously force her to be sterilized?  :P

I have known women who have had children. Some were the same women who had the abortions. So, if you want to demonize women who have had abortions, there are a lot of good loving moms and grandmas out there waiting for you to call them nasty names because of the baby they decided not to have. And with 7 billion people and counting, why make women who don't want babies have them?  Women are not just baby-making factories for other people who want to adopt.

Women do not make the decision to have either a child or an abortion lightly. Being pregnant is a big deal for most women. Having an abortion is a big deal for most women.  Having a child is a big deal for most women. Having a miscarriage is a big deal for most women--and about 25% of all pregnancies are lost to miscarriage.

You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. No shady abortion doctor could perform a million abortions in his lifetime. God is therefore a way shadier character than any abortion doctor--he performs millions of abortions on pregnant women every day, often under unsanitary and dangerous conditions. Sometimes god throws in the woman's life as well. When a woman loses a pregnancy and wanted the baby, well, that's an unwanted godly abortion.

I have much more respect for the "seamless garment" anti-abortion folks-- the ones I know  are Catholic nuns who work in women's shelters and orphanages. They are feminists in favor of universal health care and social welfare programs, they support child care and family leave, in other words, they try to make the world a better place for the kids who are born. They are environmentalists who realize that more births will put much more pressure on the planet, so we will have to conserve like crazy to make room for the millions of additional people. They lobby against the death penalty. And they do not make any exceptions for rape or incest-- I agree with that, because abortions should not be based on how the fetus got inside the woman.

If people want there to be no abortions, they can at least be rational about the consequences. I suggest you retract your statement that women have abortions with no more concern than a visit to the dentist. Because you do not know what you are talking about.
 1. So have you. But with your attitude, they are unlikely to tell you about it. Especially if you were the father. :angel:
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 28, 2013, 04:42:15 PM
without minds, they wouldn't be human life.   Nuance.

So a fertilized egg is not human life, to you.  A zygote is not human life, to you.  Is that truly the case?

Obviously nobody would care if it was just a plant in the womb.

Sure they would.  The important thing is to make sure that the woman is punished for having non-procreative sex.  It's a religious thing.  Unwanted child-birth is a convenient, "natural" punishment.  This is why anti-abortion folks so often talk about how the woman needs to be held accountable for her actions (ie. having sex) and should have to face the consequences.  It's about retribution against her.  The pregnancy is merely an effective tool for achieving this.

Fetuses react violently when they are being aborted.  They seem to be feeling something, I assume pain.

So you're not against abortion up to the fetal stage, then.

I'm not necessarily against the morning after pill but that seems preferable to waiting several weeks for the fetus to develop and then putting it down.  I have heard the morning after pills can be dangerous for the woman, I think.   I don't know much about those, but it doesn't seem like the majority of women who get pregnant  think they will get pregnant before they do get pregnant.  So the morning after pill isn't (probalby) a big factor in this abortion debate.

I think we ought to look at at least banning women from multiple abortions.  I bet 50 percent of abortions are by repeat offenders because how hard it is to use birth control accurately.  LOL

Given partial birth abortions and even post-birth abortions like that bill Obama supported in Illinios  are legal and Democrats don't want those banned,  it is kind of silly to talk about us banning abortions earlier on.   LOL  We have a long way to go.  I think we hvae done a good job in make our case because the issue is almost 50-50 now and the abortion crowd (Democrats, essentially) has the media in their pocket. 

lol, yeah it is punishment to force you to have a precious baby.  That's a decent punishment by historical standards.  When Hitler was forcing women into gas chambers, they probably shuddered at the thought of being forced to give birth to a child that resulted from consenusal sex, instead.  lol

You guys have to make the women out like victims but the baby is the victim.  Now, I understand women have some worries about how to take of the baby and all that but I guarantee you if you go down to a church or a charity, etc,  and tell them you are thinking about aborting your baby then those people are going to find a way to raise money for you to take care of the baby if it is just about money.  So nobody is your enemy.

And both the man and the woman are reponsible for the baby because pregnancy is always a risk of having sex.   Women shouldn't have sex with men they don't love and would be willing to raise a child with IMO.  Obviously women have the bigger responsiblity in this because they are only ones who get pregnant.  We can't do anything about who gets pregnant.  I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff.

Abortion isn't a religious thing because religion is about the afterlife and beliefs about God or no God.   Thou Shalt Not Kill seems to be something most atheists agree with outside of guys like Stalin. 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 28, 2013, 04:44:51 PM
Eventually, you'll be able to punish those damned women for having sex with someone other than you.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 28, 2013, 04:51:48 PM
I'm not necessarily against the morning after pill

Good.

but that seems preferable to waiting several weeks for the fetus to develop and then putting it down.

Waiting several weeks before putting down a fetus is biologically impossible.  It is not yet called a fetus after several weeks.  It is only called a fetus after about 2 months, so it is impossible for a fetus to be terminated merely several weeks after a pregnancy begins.

Did you mean something other than "fetus" when you said "fetus"?  And if so, then why didn't you use that term instead of "fetus"?

I have heard the morning after pills can be dangerous for the woman, I think.

Not as dangerous as pregnancy, but yes.

I don't know much about those, but it doesn't seem like the majority of women who get pregnant  think they will get pregnant before they do get pregnant.   So the morning after pill isn't (probalby) a big factor in this abortion debate.

It is important on principle, because it is the earliest form of abortion that can be performed.  Whether or not someone is morally against it as well reveals a great deal about the motivations behind their position.

I think we ought to look at at least banning women from multiple abortions.  I bet 50 percent of abortions are by repeat offenders because how hard it is to use birth control accurately.  LOL

You must believe that such a woman would make a really good mother.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 28, 2013, 04:52:43 PM
Eventually, you'll be able to punish those damned women for having sex with someone other than you.

I am guessing A Scarlett Letter was your favorite book/movie.   Another movie fav of you is Footloose, right? 

lol

pretty sure nobody cares who you have sex with. lol
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 28, 2013, 05:02:39 PM
Your guesses would be incorrect.

What does that have to do with your desire to punish women for their sexual crimes in your religion?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 28, 2013, 05:07:14 PM
Your guesses would be incorrect.

What does that have to do with your desire to punish women for their sexual crimes in your religion?

u don't think there is any chance it is just people think the fetus is alive?  I knew young women who thought what  Michael Vick did to those dogs was sadistic but they also support abortion.   To me, that is a disconnect, Orwellian, even.

I don't think most people care who other people are having sex with.  Unless you are Scarlett Johansason or something.  lol  i'd like to punish her with  my baby.  lol
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on October 28, 2013, 05:27:41 PM
Dr Tesla, are you 13 years old? You sound like a sniggering adolescent who just figured out how babies are made.

I was a social worker in a housing project for many years and then did overseas development work. I have sat and held 17 year old girls as they gave birth, and sat and held 35 year old moms as their much-loved babies died in front of them. Have you?

Do you have any idea of how much time, work and money it takes to raise a child for 18 years? Pregnant women can't rely on temporary church donations-- what about health insurance, what about a place to live, what about support for the other kids, what about protection from the angry ex-boyfriend?

What if the pregnancy becomes high-risk (as many do when the woman is, as women seeking abortions often are-- very young or older than average)? What about the $10,000 unpaid bill for the birth that the hospital turns over to collections? What if the woman is illegal-- does the church hide her in the basement until the baby is born and then turn her in to the authorities? If she is an addict does the church also pay for her drug treatment?

Did you even read my earlier post? Probably not. Too many words. Maybe I should make them shorter for your attention span.... &)
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 28, 2013, 05:32:13 PM
what about adoption.  what about relatives taking care of it on temporary basis. 

i don't think abortion is supposed to be a solution to poverty.  Given a large percentage of women who want abortions are not poor,  it ends being an excuse for all of them.

given our country doesn't do anything about illegals, that is a silly talking point.  many states give them drivers licenses.   lol

those are some interesting anecdotes but given I care more about babies than you do, as demonstrated by our disagreement on abortion,  I'm not sure it matters if you held the hand of a woman giving birth or one dying.  etc

Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 28, 2013, 06:02:27 PM
u don't think there is any chance it is just people think the fetus is alive?

Why would anyone think that's their motivation?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on October 28, 2013, 08:48:25 PM
what about adoption.  what about relatives taking care of it on temporary basis. 

i don't think abortion is supposed to be a solution to poverty.  Given a large percentage of women who want abortions are not poor,  it ends being an excuse for all of them.

given our country doesn't do anything about illegals, that is a silly talking point.  many states give them drivers licenses.   lol

those are some interesting anecdotes but given I care more about babies than you do, as demonstrated by our disagreement on abortion,  I'm not sure it matters if you held the hand of a woman giving birth or one dying.  etc

I want abortion to be legal. Because when abortion is illegal, more women and girls die, along with the fetus. Kids are left without their mom, husbands without their wife, families without their daughter.

I have lived in places where abortion was illegal. Hospital wards have to treat women maimed and dying from desperate attempts to self-abort, or from badly done illegal abortions. I worked in one of those hospitals. I could link you to some photos, but you won't look at them. You want to think that banning abortion would make the world a better place. You want to live in a fantasy land where women enduring 10 or 12 pregnancies in their lives and having to raise 8 surviving children is just fine. &)

Other than that I don't think we are in disagreement on abortion. :angel:

Since you think states should not even let illegal immigrants have driver's licenses, I doubt you care about how many are pregnant or already have children when they get deported.

http://www.statisticbrain.com/number-of-u-s-deportations/

Statistics, not anecdotes. Not that you will pay any attention, but hundreds of thousands of undocumented people do get deported every year. Some of them are women with children. And some of them are pregnant women who have to decide whether to keep their families together or not.

Most women who get pregnant have the baby. The women who do not want to have a baby are the minority. So, yes, the vast majority of pregnant women are already relying on adoption or help from family and church and government welfare programs.

Most women having abortions are not rock-bottom poor, just as you say. But they are not rich, either. Rich women do not have to go to family planning clinics, let alone back alley providers. They have more stable incomes, better health insurance, have access to more reliable birth control and go to private doctors instead of clinic for their "female problems".

Women who go to places like Planned Parenthood for health care, including abortion, are working poor and middle class; many are without health insurance. Some are having the abortion so they will not become poor. Having a baby might mean having to quit a job or go to part-time work, or spend most of one of your part time job wages on child care. So, you are right --abortion is not a solution to poverty. Neither is having children when you can barely afford to support yourself on a minimum wage job.

Since you care so much more about babies than I do, I assume you are doing more then just talk about how much you hate abortion on the internet. You are willing to change your life around completely to help babies. Just as you expect a woman to do if she gets pregnant and does not want the child.

Amirite?

1)I assume you are currently financially supporting as many children as you can afford.
2)I assume you have already adopted several unwanted children, and are fighting hard for gay people to be able to adopt in your state.
3)I assume you have never had unprotected sex and fight to get good sex education into your community's schools.
4)I assume you are helping the women in your community with child care and helping them to pay for their health expenses. How many kids are you babysitting so their moms can work or go to school?
5)I assume you have helped immigrant women without papers find jobs and decent places to live so they can keep their families together.
6)I assume you have lobbied your state to raise the minimum wage and give everyone decent health care.
7)And of course you are in favor of expanding welfare benefits for any women who have babies.

If you have not done any of these things, you are just another internet poseur, talking a big line of bullsh!t and never doing anything about anything. And you have made an a$$ out of you and me.

Amirite?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 28, 2013, 09:23:53 PM
I don't think most people care who other people are having sex with.  Unless you are Scarlett Johansason or something.  lol  i'd like to punish her with  my baby.  lol

New sig quote.  It scores higher on the creep-O-meter than the previous one.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 28, 2013, 09:39:25 PM
I don't think most people care who other people are having sex with.  Unless you are Scarlett Johansason or something.  lol  i'd like to punish her with  my baby.  lol

New sig quote.  It scores higher on the creep-O-meter than the previous one.

yeah that wasn't phrased very well.  i meant, if she was cool with it.   you knew what i meant.   i don't think somebody pro-life is going to be what you are implying.

i might make one of your quotes about how God loves abortion my sig.   That was creeptastic and you probably meant it. 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 28, 2013, 09:46:16 PM
One of whose quotes?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 28, 2013, 10:18:39 PM
One of whose quotes?

I might have confused you with one of the other women on this thread.  I actually thought I was talking to the same person all this time.  lol

Here is one of your statements.  It is hilarious if you actually believe this:

"Sure they would.  The important thing is to make sure that the woman is punished for having non-procreative sex.  It's a religious thing.  Unwanted child-birth is a convenient, "natural" punishment.  This is why anti-abortion folks so often talk about how the woman needs to be held accountable for her actions (ie. having sex) and should have to face the consequences.  It's about retribution against her.  The pregnancy is merely an effective tool for achieving this."

To me, it seems like it about they think the fetus is alive.  Look for simple explanations (Occam's Razor), as it isn't  likely religious people plotting against women who have sex.  If we lived in Afghanistan you might have a point.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 28, 2013, 10:34:34 PM
I might have confused you with one of the other women on this thread.  I actually thought I was talking to the same person all this time.  lol

That you don't pay attention to what people say is old news; that you don't pay attention to who says it is definitely unsurprising.

Here is one of your statements.  It is hilarious if you actually believe this:

"Sure they would.  The important thing is to make sure that the woman is punished for having non-procreative sex.  It's a religious thing.  Unwanted child-birth is a convenient, "natural" punishment.  This is why anti-abortion folks so often talk about how the woman needs to be held accountable for her actions (ie. having sex) and should have to face the consequences.  It's about retribution against her.  The pregnancy is merely an effective tool for achieving this."

I believe the term that the pro-lifer who cued me onto this truth used was "boozy sluts".  The "pro-life" position, along with the other positions that often accompany it - such as objection to contraception and sexual education, and objection to "socialist" child-care policies - makes much more sense if what I said is true, than it does if they actually cared about the lives of children.

To me, it seems like it about they think the fetus is alive.  Look for simple explanations (Occam's Razor), as it isn't  likely religious people plotting against women who have sex.  If we lived in Afghanistan you might have a point.

Islam and Christianity share their misogyny; we just happen to have had a secular enlightenment period to soften it, and they havn't.

As for Occam's Razor, the one that makes the fewest assumptions and requires the fewest ad-hoc explanations is preferred.  That isn't always simpler.  For example, it is simpler to believe that my car's engine troubles are the result of a mischievous spirit than the complex sh!t that's actually transpired in there.  The complex sh!t isn't simpler, but it does make fewer assumptions and ad-hoc explanations.  As in, none.  Whereas the mischievous spirit is an unevidenced, ad-hoc explanation that is unwarranted.

Given that I've actually talked to "pro-lifers" who did indeed see childbirth as an appropriate punishment for the woman's sexual misdeeds, it's not all that far fetched.  I'm sure some are suckered in by the baby pictures too, though, and just havn't thoguht the position through.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 29, 2013, 12:08:31 AM
Well you need to go live in Muslim countries like Iran to get some perspective on how different Christian and Islam cultures are.   Islam is part of the governmnet over there, too.  Women get stoned over there for adultery and other things.  So I'd rather take my chances with Christians who want to teach "creationism" in classrooms and are pro-life, myself.  lol

I don't see Christian women walking around covering their bodies and whatnot.   What is your proof that Christians are anti-woman because being against teaching kids about birth control when they are 9 doesn't mean you are anti-woman.  It is about what kids should hear at a certain age.  Also, liberals tend to oppose teaching abstinence to high schoolers  even though abstinence works every time it is tried. I'm not sure how that is anti-woman

Your fallacy is to argue abortion is a women's rights issue but actually it isn't ggiven all the women who oppose abortion including most mothers.  I don't think women opposed right to vote, etc.

There might be some Christians who want to "punish" women as you say but I don't think they see having a kid as a punishment.   But still this is kind of an argument that the exception to the rule is the rule because let's face it, most people oppose abortion because they think it is a baby.  That is why it is a controversial issue.  Obviously most people don't want to tell women what to do, on the other hand, we think there is a life inside the woman.  So people have conflict no matter what side they eventually come down on.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 29, 2013, 12:27:04 AM
Well you need to go live in Muslim countries like Iran to get some perspective on how different Christian and Islam cultures are.

You mean like you've done?  Anyway, I've already addressed this.

Islam is part of the governmnet over there, too.  Women get stoned over there for adultery and other things.  So I'd rather take my chances with Christians who want to teach "creationism" in classrooms and are pro-life, myself.  lol

Fortunately, you and your ilk are prevented from instituting the same kind of theocracy here by law.

I don't see Christian women walking around covering their bodies and whatnot.

Yes you do.  And when a woman is raped, the Christian Conservative media lambast her for having "asked for it" by dreassing slutty.  It's not as extreme over there, as she isn't killed, but the same sorts of values exist throughout the Abrahamic faiths.

What is your proof that Christians are anti-woman because being against teaching kids about birth control when they are 9 doesn't mean you are anti-woman.

Being against teaching them about it when they're 14 is, though.  Anyway, I never said they were anti-woman.  Just anti-perceived-as-promiscuous-woman.  It's not about punishing women across the board, just about punishing the "immoral" ones.

It is about what kids should hear at a certain age.  Also, liberals tend to oppose teaching abstinence to high schoolers  even though abstinence works every time it is tried. I'm not sure how that is anti-woman

Abstinence works.  Abstinence lessons do not.  Only one of these is decided by the school.  But you knew that and were just being dishonest again.  And again.

Your fallacy is to argue abortion is a women's rights issue but actually it isn't ggiven all the women who oppose abortion including most mothers.  I don't think women opposed right to vote, etc.

I never said anything to which this could be a coherent response.

There might be some Christians who want to "punish" women as you say but I don't think they see having a kid as a punishment.

Just going by their own words, DrTroll.

But still this is kind of an argument that the exception to the rule is the rule because let's face it, most people oppose abortion because they think it is a baby.  That is why it is a controversial issue.

Says you.  I hope not, though, because that would make most of them fvcking stupid, for other reasons I've brought up earlier in this thread.

Obviously most people don't want to tell women what to do,

That is not at all obvious.  Indeed, your original comments about Islam argue against this claim of yours.  Not that you'd care about consistency.

on the other hand, we think there is a life inside the woman.  So people have conflict no matter what side they eventually come down on.

They do tend to rationalize it that way to justify punishing her for her sexual immorality, that's true.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 29, 2013, 12:44:47 AM
Like I said, I think you watch too many movies like A Scarlet Letter or Footloose.   You make people who disagree with you on abortion into these evil monsters.   I think you do that because you know the moral side of the debate lies with the pro life people so you are trying to shift the subject some and show how they are immoral so somehow abortion is ok.   Discredit people who disagree with you rrather than the argument on is abortion aborting life or not.  That is the only thing that is relevant on this issue.   I'll concede some pro lifers might be jerks but that doesn't mean abortion is ok.  That seems to be your argument in an indirect way.

I enjoyed the debate.  I need to get my beauty sleep.  take care.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 29, 2013, 01:22:32 AM
Like I said, I think you watch too many movies like A Scarlet Letter or Footloose.   You make people who disagree with you on abortion into these evil monsters.

Maybe they're merely mistaken.  There's something very sick about a set of positions when the motivations I've described paint a more coherent picture than the ones you have.

I think you do that because you know the moral side of the debate lies with the pro life people so you are trying to shift the subject some and show how they are immoral so somehow abortion is ok.   Discredit people who disagree with you rrather than the argument on is abortion aborting life or not.

Of course it's aborting life; everyone does that all the time, it's not inherently wrong to excise life.  Just not life that has any of the qualities associated with personhood.  Which neonates do not.

That is the only thing that is relevant on this issue.   I'll concede some pro lifers might be jerks but that doesn't mean abortion is ok.  That seems to be your argument in an indirect way.

Not really.  There's no rational justification for broadly classifying neonates as people, except as a tool to oppress women.  Or, I suppose, if we were experiencing a species-threatening low-population crisis, as in the recent remake of Battlestar Galactica.  It's a conscious decision to classify them that way, and all sorts of rationalizations come out to justify that action:  The soul argument, the potential argument, etc...none of these hold up under scrutiny, so either there are a diverse set of faulty justifications that individually and separately convince people to oppose abortion, or these faulty justifications are covers for something else that few would have the gall to state openly.

A Biblical attiiude toward women having sex[1] is a single postulate that explains the full range of right-wing positions on abortion, contraception, sexual education, health care, and child care.  It simply and elegantly explains all of that.
 1. Stone the adulterers!  Punish the fornicators!  Well...just the ones that are women, they're morally inferior after all...
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Anfauglir on October 29, 2013, 07:54:28 AM
Yup.  But THIS thread was about how - for someone who truly believes in a good afterlife - abortion would indeed be the kindest thing,    as it would guarantee that "soul" immediate and eternal happiness in the afterlife.  It would eliminate all the troubles of this world, and remove the danger that soul would be led astray and end up in eternal torment.  Hence the question "Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?"

Seems like a weird and creepy thing to say,  especially since you don't believe in the afterlife.  It does seem like religious people live in your brain, rent free.  Or maybe you are looking for ways to assuage your guilt.    I always thought the line was "I personally think abortion is wrong, but......"    This seems to be "I think abortion is pretty awesome because......."

Everyone else has quite adequately dealt with the other half of your post.  So I'll deal with this half.

Yes.  It IS a weird and creepy statement, deliberately so.  It is made to expose the hypocrisy of those who hold the sumultaneous positions that "abortion is bad" and "aborted foetuses go direct to heaven".

I note that you decided not to actually address the question, though, but instead to suggest I was assuaging my guilt - though I'm not sure of what guilt you feel I have a problem with.  I wonder why you decided that the best way to respond to the original point of this thread was to attack me, rather than to offer a legitimate answer to the question?  Perhaps those religious people are living in your head (whatever that means), propting you to go on the defensive rather than be able to give a considered response?

I don't know.  All I know is, you decided to go with a personal slur - actually, a series of them - rather than consider the question that was actually posed.  I find that quite revealing.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: screwtape on October 29, 2013, 09:55:28 AM
i meant, if she was cool with it.   you knew what i meant. 

yeah, we knew what you meant when you referred to sex as "punishing her".  Since even talking to you is torture, it was either you are the worst lay on the continent or something rapey.  Possibly both. 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 29, 2013, 10:05:26 AM
i meant, if she was cool with it.   you knew what i meant. 

yeah, we knew what you meant when you referred to sex as "punishing her".  Since even talking to you is torture, it was either you are the worst lay on the continent or something rapey.  Possibly both.

nah, she said that having a baby was a punishment,  then she said people care about who she has sex with,  so I was just trying to do satire featuring both those elements.   i've already said i didn't phrase it right so i am now prepared to accept your apology for calling me a rapist.    I'm sure Scarlettt can do better than me.   lol   a man can dream can't he.   
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 29, 2013, 10:25:24 AM
Yes.  It IS a weird and creepy statement, deliberately so.  It is made to expose the hypocrisy of those who hold the sumultaneous positions that "abortion is bad" and "aborted foetuses go direct to heaven".

I don't see how it is hypocritical for Christians to say abortion is bad and that babies go to heaven when they are aborted.   Hypocritical would be them having abortions.    Saying that the babies go to heaven when they are aborted  is similar to what people say to other people who had a death in their family....they say your relative is in a better place now.   It is just about fiindiing a silver lining on something that horrible but you have no power to stop.

My point is it seems like you always have Christians on your mind and you also act like the argument against abortion is religious but it is about the fetus being life or not.  It is a question of ethics..     Obviosly many Christians oppose abortion but that does not mean the issue itself is religious. 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 29, 2013, 10:29:39 AM
I don't see how it is hypocritical for Christians to say abortion is bad and that babies go to heaven when they are aborted.   Hypocritical would be them having abortions.    Saying that the babies go to heaven when they are aborted  is similar to what people say to other people who had a death in their family....they say your relative is in a better place now.   It is just about fiindiing a silver lining on something that horrible but you have no power to stop.

The problem is that the belief is not just in a silver lining, but in a preferable state.  Look at your own wording:  They're in a better place now.  Better is preferable.  If one truly believes death to lead to a better place than life, then it makes logical sense to seek death.

Fortunately, few Christians seem to genuinely believe in heaven.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 29, 2013, 10:33:51 AM
I don't see how it is hypocritical for Christians to say abortion is bad and that babies go to heaven when they are aborted.   Hypocritical would be them having abortions.    Saying that the babies go to heaven when they are aborted  is similar to what people say to other people who had a death in their family....they say your relative is in a better place now.   It is just about fiindiing a silver lining on something that horrible but you have no power to stop.

The problem is that the belief is not just in a silver lining, but in a preferable state.  Look at your own wording:  They're in a better place now.  Better is preferable.  If one truly believes death to lead to a better place than life, then it makes logical sense to seek death.

Fortunately, few Christians seem to genuinely believe in heaven.

They oppose the killing of babies.  You are the one arguing they should want to kill babies so they go to heaven.   You are getting the order mixed up.  They say babies go to heaven after somebody else has aborted  them.    I don't believe in the afterlife so I never said they are in a better place now, that is what some people think. 

You talk about God and heaven a lot for an atheist.    Why are they on your mind.   You really are a slave to thinking about Christians.  Free your mind, the rest will follow.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: screwtape on October 29, 2013, 10:34:39 AM
i've already said i didn't phrase it right so i am now prepared to accept your apology for calling me a rapist.   

I didn't call you a rapist.  I said you may have meant "something kind of rapey".  The alternative is you meant sex with you is the opposite of a treat - punishment. 

Your reading skills need some brushing up.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on October 29, 2013, 01:46:15 PM
Quote
lol, yeah it is punishment to force you to have a precious baby.

With over 7 billion humans on our planet, there is nothing inherently precious about a baby.

If we were to force prisoners to take part in an activity that had the equivalent effect of a pregnancy it would be considered cruel and inhumane.

Do you want to do something that saps your energy, makes permanent changes to your body, causes you to vomit frequently, and pee even more frequently for months, that ends in hours of abdominal cramping, and skin tearing if it doesn't kill you?


I doubt you put much thought into squashing a spider and ending its life, or eating the meat of other sentient animals. Why is that OK, but aborting a developing clump of cells in a human womb isn't?

I fully support abortion rights, and I don't care what reason a woman gives for wanting one.  I'm lucky enough to be on very effective BC, but I wouldn't hesitate for even a second to have an abortion if it failed. I'm emotionally stable, in a very healthy and supportive marriage, gainfully employed, financially stable, and I even have spare rooms in my house.  In ever aspect I'm in the ideal situation to have a baby, which isn't the case for many desperate women in this world.  But you know what?  I don't want a baby.

End of story.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 29, 2013, 02:12:13 PM
Some people didn't want to give up slavery.  Some people didn't want segregated schools.

It isn't about what you want.  It is about what is right.  You are just saying you are selfish and don't consider the ethics of it.    Babies are not cockroaches. 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 29, 2013, 02:14:21 PM
Some people didn't want to give up slavery.  Some people didn't want segregated schools.

It isn't about what you want.  It is about what is right.  You are just saying you are selfish and don't consider the ethics of it.    Babies are not cockroaches. 

Then when they are born, why do you treat them like cockroaches?

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 29, 2013, 02:24:08 PM
I didn't realize I was resonsible for everybody else's baby.  That seems to be the liberal mindset out there, everybody else is supposed to take care of me.   lol

Why do we pay all these taxes to ostensibly help the poor if all these women can't have their baby because of poverty. 

Clearly pro-abortion people don't care if it is life or if it isn't, they will support abortion even if we prove to them it is viable life to include feeling pain.   Politically, you hvae to pretend you care about that question and say it isn't life or viable life and doesn't feel pain. 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 29, 2013, 02:25:21 PM
They oppose the killing of babies.

So do I.  The difference is, my beliefs give me no reason to want them killed.

You are the one arguing they should want to kill babies so they go to heaven.

I'm quite glad they don't.  I'm not arguing that they should kill babies, I'm arguing that they don't really believe in heaven.

You are getting the order mixed up.  They say babies go to heaven after somebody else has aborted  them.    I don't believe in the afterlife so I never said they are in a better place now, that is what some people think.

Believe it or not, this thread was not personally directed to you.  It was started before you even started posting here.

Also, "baby" refers to a human that has been born.

You talk about Allah and paradise a lot for an atheist.    Why are they on your mind.   You really are a slave to thinking about Muslims.  Free your mind, the rest will follow.

Imagine you were saying the above ^^ to an atheist in Iran.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on October 29, 2013, 02:52:00 PM
Quote
ou are just saying you are selfish and don't consider the ethics of it.

I very much consider the ethics of it. It's just that my ethics and yours are not the same. I believe in the value of life, but don't assign intrinsic value to the non-sentient embryo, just because it's human. 

A human embryo in the womb of a woman who desperately wants a child is extremely valuable to her. I attended a funeral for my sister-in-law's miscarriage, because it was a real loss.  If the same occurred to woman who was ambivalent about the pregnancy, and so relieved about the miscarriage that she wanted to celebrate, I would celebrate with her.

What answers do you have to Nogodsforme's questions regarding what you are doing to promote child welfare in the world?  Do you adopt children, do you help poor mothers?  Do you do anything but judge and condemn?

If you can't answer that you, in fact, do anything to help these babies you so desperately want born after their birth, then you do treat them as cockroaches.

Never minding babies and children, what do you do to help adults whose lives are miserable? Do you volunteer to help the homeless, do you donate blood, give money to battered women's shelters, join a task force to end gang violence? 

Do you do anything to promote the welfare of any human after birth, do you even pretend to care about them?  Fully formed, living, breathing people suffer every day, but so much time and energy is spent on non-sentient clumps of dividing cells that have the potential to become more of the same forgotten folks.

In many cases, not even considering any potential theological aspect, abortion is kinder than birth. 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on October 29, 2013, 02:56:08 PM
Quote
I didn't realize I was resonsible for everybody else's baby.

You seem to think it's your responsibility to tell women they should give birth instead of abort, why shouldn't you then have some responsibility toward the results of your actions?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 29, 2013, 03:05:00 PM
Quote
I didn't realize I was resonsible for everybody else's baby.

You seem to think it's your responsibility to tell women they should give birth instead of abort, why shouldn't you then have some responsibility toward the results of your actions?

I pay taxes that go to the welfare state.  What else can I do?  They can give the baby up for adoptiion or get their parents to help out. 

This is irrevalant to the question of is it terminating life or not.  I think most fetuses are aborted with the have a beating a heart, a functioning brain with brain waves, a neverous system, well deveoped limbs.  etc.   

Let's apply your logic to torturing dogs like Michael Vick.  If I think it is my responisibliy to tell people like Vick not to torture dogs,  how many dogs am I supporting. 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on October 29, 2013, 03:51:08 PM
^^^On what were you gazing to so completely miss the point?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on October 29, 2013, 03:52:51 PM
Why am I not surprised.  &)

I knew that Dr. T would back out of actually doing anything to help babies. He wants women to change everything about their lives so he will feel better. He is the ultimate poseur.[1] 

All big talk with no regard for the consequences of whatever policy he espouses. He wants abortion to be illegal, so every sperm that meets an egg becomes a fully grown baby. But what then?

Babies need 24-7 care, food, clothing, shelter, doctor visits and later on, an education, if we want the kid to be a productive member of society and not an inmate in a prison. And we as a society will have to be willing pick up the bill for all of that if the people involved can't or won't. Not to mention the impact on the environment of adding more and more water-using, waste-producing people to the planet.

He just wants to punish those irresponsible, promiscuous women who love having abortions  &) by making them have babies they don't want and can't care for.   And who cares if more women die from illegal abortions? At least the sluts get what they deserve. And if along the way nice, responsible married women are also forced to have a couple of children they don't want, so what? What's 2 or 3 more children to a woman who already has a few?

Obviously, he couldn't care less about what happens to the babies after they are born, or else he would be doing something for kids now instead of just flapping his big gums on the internet.  :angel:
 1. I love doggies, but even I would never compare animal protection to the needs of children... :P
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on October 29, 2013, 03:53:38 PM
Quote
I think most fetuses are aborted with the have a beating a heart, a functioning brain with brain waves, a neverous system, well deveoped limbs.  etc.   

So do spiders.  But you're wrong about the state of development of most abortions, and the functioning of the fetal brain.

Quote
Let's apply your logic to torturing dogs like Michael Vick.  If I think it is my responisibliy to tell people like Vick not to torture dogs,  how many dogs am I supporting. 

This is not an accurate comparison.

First off, there's a world of difference between torturing dogs and aborting a pregnancy.  Torturing something and killing something are not at all comparable.  Pulling the legs off a spider and leaving it to die a slow death is cruel, squashing it to death with your shoe is not.

There is also an astronomical difference in the social, emotional, physical, and economical impact of a dog and a child.  If you can't see that, you're delusional.

Plus in the case of the dog's we're talking about creatures that have already been born. I may be pro-choice, but you can bet I'm anti-infanticide.  Once a child is born, there are other options for its care and survival, while in the womb it's a parasite and the mother is the host. If she's not willing to be a host, she shouldn't have to be.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on October 29, 2013, 04:00:43 PM
Quote
What else can I do?

The very least you could do is pretend like you think human lives have value past the point of birth.

More to the point, you could adopt one or more children that were the result of unwanted pregnancies that were not aborted. But you won't, because like most forced-birthers you won't put your money where your mouth is.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Dante on October 29, 2013, 04:04:28 PM
I think

You should stop doing that. You're not very good at it.

Instead, why not do some research and see where it leads? Yes, it may contradict what you "think", but you'll be a little more educated, and wont have to resort to starting every sentence with "I think" or "It seems to me". You might even be able to state facts instead of opinions.

Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 29, 2013, 04:29:29 PM
I didn't realize I was resonsible for everybody else's baby.  That seems to be the liberal mindset out there, everybody else is supposed to take care of me.   lol

Why do we pay all these taxes to ostensibly help the poor if all these women can't have their baby because of poverty. 

Clearly pro-abortion people don't care if it is life or if it isn't, they will support abortion even if we prove to them it is viable life to include feeling pain.   Politically, you hvae to pretend you care about that question and say it isn't life or viable life and doesn't feel pain. 

This is your problem: you only care about the person while they are in the process of being created, after that you don't care. You say, "I pay taxes..." which is as far as you want your responsibility to go. You have no problem forcing women to give birth to unwanted babies--well, you say, put them up for adoption as if that solves everything, for you. It doesn't solve anything. You keep saying, "liberal this, liberal that" which is nonsense. People should be taken care of by the means in which they can take care of themselves. People like you are of the mind: they should fend for themselves.

Conservatives yelp about how they want government to stay out of their lives yet when it comes to guns, abortion, and homosexuality, they have no problem in acting laws that are against them. That's government in peoples lives.

You're a hypocrite. You don't care about babies, or people, or anyone; just enacting laws based on your backwater religion and viewpoints, and oppressing people by your religion.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 29, 2013, 04:30:18 PM
A slave owner probably made a similar argument back in the day.  Who is going to take of the slaves when we free them.    They have never provided for themselves..they were given free room and board.    Therefore, we should not ban slavery.

Boom.  I.Am.Legend.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 29, 2013, 04:32:03 PM
Nam,

By your logic, making rape illegal is big government.  Making domestic abuse illegal is big government.   And so on. 

Next.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 29, 2013, 04:33:08 PM
People are hurt by those things.

No people are hurt by allowing abortion, unless you count the feelings of the Christian Taliban.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Dante on October 29, 2013, 04:34:07 PM
Nam,

By your logic, making rape illegal is big government.  Making domestic abuse illegal is big government.   And so on. 

No, it's your logic to equate those things with abortion. Nam didn't.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 29, 2013, 04:34:14 PM
A slave owner probably made a similar argument back in the day.  Who is going to take of the slaves when we free them.    They have never provided for themselves..they were given free room and board.    Therefore, we should not ban slavery.

Boom.  I.Am.Legend.

A slave owner justified slavery by Christianity. The Bible promotes slavery. That's what a slaveholder would have used, and the Constitution at the time, since the Constitution also stated it was legal.

"They have never provided for themselves" -- sounds present-tense and racist.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on October 29, 2013, 04:36:49 PM
A slave owner probably made a similar argument back in the day.  Who is going to take of the slaves when we free them.    They have never provided for themselves..they were given free room and board.    Therefore, we should not ban slavery.

Boom.  I.Am.Legend.
Boom. You.Be.Clueless.

And a willfully ignorant idiot - I haven't forgotten that either. Keep up the good work though, you're amusing the hell outta me!  ;D

Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 29, 2013, 04:37:52 PM
People are hurt by those things.

No people are hurt by allowing abortion, unless you count the feelings of the Christian Taliban.

yeah except the fetus that is being crushed.  why do they react violent to the abortion procedure if they do not feel pain.   What is the magical day that they become alive if we rule out conception?    When are they viable enough where it would be murder if we abort them.  Is this day the same for every baby?   Is the day the day he is born? 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 29, 2013, 04:40:47 PM
A slave owner probably made a similar argument back in the day.  Who is going to take of the slaves when we free them.    They have never provided for themselves..they were given free room and board.    Therefore, we should not ban slavery.

Boom.  I.Am.Legend.

A slave owner justified slavery by Christianity. The Bible promotes slavery. That's what a slaveholder would have used, and the Constitution at the time, since the Constitution also stated it was legal.

"They have never provided for themselves" -- sounds present-tense and racist.

-Nam

Does the Bible justify abortion?

Also, since you think the Bible is crap, why do you always reference the Bible.    Your point had nothing to do with my analogy to the logic used that I and other pro-lifers should have to take care of these babies or otherwise abortion is ok.   That isn't the test.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 29, 2013, 04:44:38 PM
Boom. I.Am.Legend.

You could be right there, but you would not like the laughter which goes with it.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 29, 2013, 04:45:18 PM
yeah except the fetus that is being crushed.

That is not a person.  And in most cases, it is not even a fetus.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 29, 2013, 04:51:23 PM
I will not apologize for speaking up for the little ones who cannot speak for themselves. 

10 out of 10 fetuses would choose life if they could speak and were aware of their fate. 

The rights of fetuses are the civil rights issue of our generation.  History will not remember us kindly if we do not correct this egregious homicide of innocents.   Not one of you wishes you were aborted by your parents.    You should not have the right to end life simply because all you wanted was an orgasm.  Pregnacy is a risk of having sex,  plan accordingly.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 29, 2013, 04:55:39 PM
I will not apologize for speaking up for the little ones who cannot speak for themselves.

Oh, don't pretend to be motivated by compassion.  It does a disservice to people who actually do care for kids.

10 out of 10 tumors would choose life if they could speak and were aware of their fate. 

I'll bet they would.  Same reasoning applies.  Not possessing any awareness is something that precludes personhood.

The rights of fetuses are the civil rights issue of our generation.  History will not remember us kindly if we do not correct this egregious homicide of innocents.   Not one of you wishes you were aborted by your parents.    You should not have the right to end life simply because all you wanted was an orgasm.  Pregnacy is a risk of having sex,  plan accordingly.

*clap clap clap*

Amazing rhetoric there, bro.  Great propaganda piece.  No truth in it, other than the second-last sentence, but very well written nonetheless.

There are a plethora of problems with what you wrote.  Do you want to know what they are?  Or, do you already know what they are, and not care?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 29, 2013, 04:59:26 PM
Let's say you got angry at a bad movie and wanted to punish Scarlet Johansson, so you went and raped her.

She gets pregnant from it, of course, and you hope that she has to endure the punishment you've set up for her.

What moral obligation does she have to keep your offspring in her womb, DrTroll?  It's not yet a person.  Surely you'd like it to be, so that she would be forced suffer, but what is the rationale for labelling it as such?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on October 29, 2013, 05:07:23 PM
I will not apologize for speaking up for the little ones who cannot speak for themselves. 

Believe me, no one expects you to do so.

We'd sure like it if you would base your position on facts though. Don't get me wrong -  we don't expect that either, it would just be a nice change.

Go ahead and speak for them. Who knows? It may go better than your efforts to speak for yourself have.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 29, 2013, 05:10:46 PM
A slave owner probably made a similar argument back in the day.  Who is going to take of the slaves when we free them.    They have never provided for themselves..they were given free room and board.    Therefore, we should not ban slavery.

Boom.  I.Am.Legend.

A slave owner justified slavery by Christianity. The Bible promotes slavery. That's what a slaveholder would have used, and the Constitution at the time, since the Constitution also stated it was legal.

"They have never provided for themselves" -- sounds present-tense and racist.

-Nam

Does the Bible justify abortion?
Also, since you think the Bible is crap, why do you always reference the Bible.    Your point had nothing to do with my analogy to the logic used that I and other pro-lifers should have to take care of these babies or otherwise abortion is ok.   That isn't the test.

Sure does. When Biblegod  tells the Hebrews to slay ALL their enemies which includes pregnant women. Hell Biblegod  apparently flooded the entire world, you think all the pregnant women survived that? Hell, if you read Psalms 137:8 you'll see Biblegod  isn't too keen on babies either. Well, that's something you two have in common.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 29, 2013, 05:13:30 PM
I will not apologize for speaking up for the little ones who cannot speak for themselves. 

10 out of 10 fetuses would choose life if they could speak and were aware of their fate. 

The rights of fetuses are the civil rights issue of our generation.  History will not remember us kindly if we do not correct this egregious homicide of innocents.   Not one of you wishes you were aborted by your parents.    You should not have the right to end life simply because all you wanted was an orgasm.  Pregnacy is a risk of having sex,  plan accordingly.

If fetuses were aware while in the womb they'd probably see their mother secondary and murder her. You get it? You don't care. If you did you'd care about both lives and not just one.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 29, 2013, 05:16:46 PM
People are hurt by those things.

No people are hurt by allowing abortion, unless you count the feelings of the Christian Taliban.

yeah except the fetus that is being crushed.  why do they react violent to the abortion procedure if they do not feel pain.   What is the magical day that they become alive if we rule out conception?    When are they viable enough where it would be murder if we abort them.  Is this day the same for every baby?   Is the day the day he is born? 

You should never, ever ejaculate semen knowingly or unknowingly because each shot has millions of little dudes swimming around, each an individual life, and by ejaculating, you will be murdering millions of them.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: magicmiles on October 29, 2013, 05:20:06 PM


If fetuses were aware while in the womb they'd probably see their mother secondary and murder her. You get it?
-Nam

I don't think you've clearly expressed yourself on that. Can you clarify?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on October 29, 2013, 05:23:36 PM
Remind me. How many of those "little ones" are you willing to take care of, Dr. Tesla? Oh, yeah. None. Once they are born, the little effers are on their own. You can change the subject and talk about dogs or slaves. But what about those babies, huh? 

Pregnancy is a risk of having sex--true. Plan accordingly if you don't want to become pregnant by using birth control--true.

And if you get pregnant anyway because you are too ill-informed, too immature, too messed up on drugs, too poor, too fertile or with a man who won't allow it, etc., do not have children you can't or won't care for. Have an abortion as early as possible.

Women and girls who are too ill-informed, too immature, too messed up or too poor to use birth control are most likely to have unwanted pregnancies, and they are the very ones who should not be having a baby. If she decides to go on with the pregnancy and give the child up for adoption, that is wonderful. But women who are really messed up and immature, by definition, do not make the best decisions. You can't give a baby up for adoption on the spur of the moment, and just abandoning an infant somewhere is a serious crime, as it should be.

In fact, messed up women do not make decisions at all, and life just kind of happens to them. Four children in foster care later, they realize that they have made a few mistakes. The kids suffer the consequences, and the whole society pays. As a former social worker, I would rather make it much easier for such women to end the pregnancy, instead of blaming them for being who they are and for having the lives they do.

Believe me, most women who have unwanted pregnancies do not have abortions. I have dealt with many, many situations where the woman probably should have had an abortion but "chose life" instead. They have the children, maybe partly because they have been listening to crap from people like you. If only they would track down the forced birth folks and hand them the babies..... :P
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 29, 2013, 05:29:25 PM


If fetuses were aware while in the womb they'd probably see their mother secondary and murder her. You get it?
-Nam

I don't think you've clearly expressed yourself on that. Can you clarify?

If you were aware that you're in a dark place solely dependent on someone else, wouldn't you want out?

I may be biased, I am claustrophobic.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: magicmiles on October 29, 2013, 05:36:24 PM
I am in a dark place solely dependent on someone else. But I don't want out.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 29, 2013, 05:40:18 PM
I am in a dark place solely dependent on someone else. But I don't want out.

Marriage is tough, so I hear.

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Anfauglir on October 30, 2013, 06:30:01 AM
My point is it seems like you always have Christians on your mind and you also act like the argument against abortion is religious.....

LOL - what a bizarre thing to say.  Have a look up there at the name of the site.  Why are you so surprised that conversations on this site deal with the religious aspects of life?  I also post on wargaming sites, and - funny thing! - over there I talk about wargaming.

So yes - I DO have Christians on my mind when I'm posting on a site whose chef rationale is the problems with, and caused by, religion - specifically Christianity. 

Whoulda thunk?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: wheels5894 on October 30, 2013, 07:11:34 AM

...



Does the Bible justify abortion?

This is the wrong way round. We ought to be asking if the bible bans abortion and the answer is no, it has nothing to say on the topic. Now, of course, people will argue for banning abortion quoting various bible verses to support them but the idea of banning abortion is their's first - it's not in the bible though I have no doubt they had methods of aborting the foetus back in those days.

The fact is that before 24 weeks a foetus is unable to live on its own. It doesn't have the lungs and so forth to do so. Also, bear in mind that over 50% of all zygotes fail to implant and quite a proportion of foetuses spontaneously abort so if you are relying on a caring god for banning abortion it looks like that caring god aborts more that humans do.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 10:07:53 AM
Bible says thou shalt not kill.    Life begins at conception because without conception we would not be here.

Your assumptiono is that "God"  has control over when people die.    You don't think it is possible we were created but he has no control over what happens in our lives,  like Honda  isn't at fault if somebody driving one of their cars is in a car wreck.

the case against abortion isn't religious in nature,    you want it to be so you can say that you aren't religious and thus it is ok.   
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 30, 2013, 10:14:23 AM
Bible says thou shalt not kill.    Life begins at conception because without conception we would not be here.

Your assumptiono is that "God"  has control over when people die.    You don't think it is possible we were created but he has no control over what happens in our lives,  like Honda  isn't at fault if somebody driving one of their cars is in a car wreck.

the case against abortion isn't religious in nature,    you want it to be so you can say that you aren't religious and thus it is ok.

Reader pauses to laugh........
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Dante on October 30, 2013, 10:21:18 AM

Your assumptiono is that "God"  has control over when people die.    You don't think it is possible we were created but he has no control over what happens in our lives,  like Honda  isn't at fault if somebody driving one of their cars is in a car wreck.

One would think that the buck stops at the omniscient overseer of the entire universe.

But, if it's not your god's fault that so many zygotes are naturally aborted, whose fault is it?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 10:25:43 AM
trying to justify murder of innocents by asserting a God that you don't believe in  also murders innocents.

so it is a two wrongs makes a right argument, along with a big assumption that the God you don't believe in purposely aborts this babies in miscarriages.

lol
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 30, 2013, 10:26:36 AM
It's called "critiquing a religious position" - never seen it before, eh?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Dante on October 30, 2013, 10:55:27 AM
trying to justify murder of innocents by asserting a God that you don't believe in  also murders innocents.

No, it is merely to show you how hypocritical your beliefs are.

But why didn't you answer my question?

Quote
so it is a two wrongs makes a right argument, along with a big assumption that the God you don't believe in purposely aborts this babies in miscarriages.

No, it is merely to show you how hypocritical your beliefs are.

But why didn't you answer my question?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: wheels5894 on October 30, 2013, 10:56:33 AM
Bible says thou shalt not kill. 

No, it says 'thou shalt do no murder. That is nearly the same but not quite. After all, if Christians actually obeyed 'thou shalt not kill' there would be no death penalties, and no fighting in wars which have a tendency to kill people.

Quote
  Life begins at conception because without conception we would not be here.

Life does, but 'not as we know it, Jim'. Sure the zygote is alive but think of the dangers it faces. It has to manage to follow the fallopian tube to the uterus and then manage to implant into the wall of the uterus - steps that many zygotes fail. Of course no one knows there is a zygote - its only some weeks after its formation and successful implantation that anyone knows its there.

The next danger for the poor zygote is remaining implanted. No all implanted zygotes make it - quite a lot disappear before anyone really knows about them. Then, throughout the pregnancy, the foetus might spontaneously abort. Even if it makes it through to 16 weeks it is a great deal different from a baby - it can't survive on its own, its brain isn't very developed etc. Really, a foetus up to that stage is better thought of a potential human.

Now, we need to remember, too, that no aborting a foetus might end up a lot worse. There is no right and wrong in this. If a baby is born to a teenage girl who hasn't the capacity or income to support it what then for the child? Or if the child is severely disabled from birth or has a disease that ends in a painful death in childhood? What about a person who is raped - should she have to carry the child of a rapist and be constantly reminded of that most dreadful crime?

This is no easy moral matter and one that needs to be considered carefully ofr each case. Blanket decisions are likely to be flawed.

Quote
Your assumption is that "God"  has control over when people die.    You don't think it is possible we were created but he has no control over what happens in our lives,  like Honda  isn't at fault if somebody driving one of their cars is in a car wreck.

Have you read Psalm 39 recently. I do recommend it. Verse 13 is a good place to start. Then say god has no control over what happens. The fact is the astonishing fail rate of zygotes does say something for the design of the whole system and  suggests that either there is no designer or, if there is and it is god, he is not up to being worshipped.

Quote
The case against abortion isn't religious in nature,    you want it to be so you can say that you aren't religious and thus it is ok.

Well, true, people make a case out against abortion who are not religious but mostly it is religious based decision. I have made the case for it above without reference to religion so I am quite happy to debate it with you on that basis but certainly, in most countries, the vast majority of people campaign against abortion are religious. (Apparently shooting to death doctors who do abortions is also religious.)
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: screwtape on October 30, 2013, 11:38:48 AM
I pay taxes that go to the welfare state.  What else can I do? 

You could leave the country.  I would support that.  In fact, I would happily purchase a one way ticket for you to go to Somalia.  I think you would like Somalia. They believe in ID there.  We could have a contract drawn up.  I will purchase the ticket contingent upon you acquiring Somali citizenship and forfeiting US citizenship.  Send me your contact information so we can get this underway ASAP.

They can give the baby up for adoptiion

I've already provided data showing that an abortion is 14 times less likely to kill a woman than a full term pregnancy.  Why would anyone subject themselves to more risk than nescessary?  Plus pregnancy knocks the hell out of a woman even without complications.  They are never the same after.

This is irrevalant to the question of is it terminating life or not. 

I think whether it is a human person is irrelevant.  People have the right to kill other adults under many circumstances.  I this is one I consider to be valid.  Do people or do they not have the right to have things removed from their own bodies?  Even if it is a little person with full awareness, why does it have a right to stay in someone's uterus who does not want it there?

I think most fetuses...

Nobody cares what your stupid opinions are.  You have already convinced everyone here you know practically nothing.  Provide facts and data or gtfo.



Boom.  I.Am.Legend.

In.Your.Own.Mind.

Boom.


10 out of 10 fetuses would choose life if they could speak and were aware of their fate. 

And 10 out of 10 cows would rather not be hamburger.




Bible says thou shalt not kill.    Life begins at conception because without conception we would not be here.

And then it goes on to describe a multitude of episodes where god orders one group of people to kill another.  But it does not say life begins at conception. 

Nor does it say abortion is wrong.  IN fact, it says if a baby is less than one month old, it is essentially irrelevant:
Quote from: Lev27:6
for a person between one month and five years, set the value of a male at five shekels of silver and that of a female at three shekels of silver;

The bible is not your friend in this argument.

Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on October 30, 2013, 12:02:34 PM
Quote
I think whether it is a human person is irrelevant.  People have the right to kill other adults under many circumstances.  I this is one I consider to be valid.  Do people or do they not have the right to have things removed from their own bodies?  Even if it is a little person with full awareness, why does it have a right to stay in someone's uterus who does not want it there?

This is it exactly.  We're under no obligation to share our bodies, or any parts, with others. I don't hear all these so called "pro-lifers" arguing that every healthy adult should be obligated to donate their blood. Even though we know the act of donating blood saves lives.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 12:11:02 PM
Bible says thou shalt not kill.    Life begins at conception because without conception we would not be here.

Your assumptiono is that "God"  has control over when people die.    You don't think it is possible we were created but he has no control over what happens in our lives,  like Honda  isn't at fault if somebody driving one of their cars is in a car wreck.

the case against abortion isn't religious in nature,    you want it to be so you can say that you aren't religious and thus it is ok.   

I think you meant Toyota, and if someone puts out a faulty product then they are at fault.

Try again.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 12:14:00 PM
It's called "critiquing a religious position" - never seen it before, eh?

Of course not. Critiquing atheism...sure but religion!?!?

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Mrjason on October 30, 2013, 12:17:17 PM
<snip> I.Am.Legend.

This is quite apt.

SPOILER ALERT

In the novel the "legend" was a relic of a bygone age who couldn't grasp the new order of things and routinely murdered innocents based on his erroneous preconceptions.

Indeed, his last words are "[I am] a new superstition entering the unassailable fortress of forever. I am legend."
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 12:21:36 PM
Are the guys on this thread planning on getting pregnant soon?   lol

i wouldn't think a male would care enough about the ability to have an legal abortion to want to talk about it on the internet.   
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: wheels5894 on October 30, 2013, 12:24:26 PM
Are the guys on this thread planning on getting pregnant soon?   lol

i wouldn't think a male would care enough about the ability to have an legal abortion to want to talk about it on the internet.

Why? This is a human rights issue after all.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Dante on October 30, 2013, 12:28:37 PM
i wouldn't think

Obviously.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 12:47:30 PM
Are the guys on this thread planning on getting pregnant soon?   lol

i wouldn't think a male would care enough about the ability to have an legal abortion to want to talk about it on the internet.

Why? This is a human rights issue after all.

lol, kind of like claiming states rights to keep the institution of slavery.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 12:52:53 PM
I hold these truths as self evident:
Most Christians are opposed to abortion but that does not mean the reason is based in religion.
Many atheists are opposed to abortion therefore it is not a religious issue.
The Bible is not source authority on the nature of "God", if "God" exists.  So quoting the Bible to show "hypocrisy"  is silly.   
There can be a God that isn't the biblical God.
Pro-lifers are pro-innocent life.  Liberals are pro-death, they are pro-abortion and pro-murderer not getting the death penalty.
If war shows hypocrisy then was liberating Europeans from Hitler in WW2  a bad thing?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 12:55:43 PM
trollery removed
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Zankuu on October 30, 2013, 01:06:34 PM
Troll on, man.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 30, 2013, 01:07:21 PM
All the males who support abortion are male pigs who want to be able to have casual sex and not deal with any unintended consequences.   These are basically Bill Clinton types.  The irony of abortion is it unites militant anti-men femi-nazis  with the male pigs like Clinton.  lol

Many males only say they are pro-abortion because they think that makes it easier for them to get a date with a young woman, who tend to be single issue voters on abortion.   So it really just pandering.

Share your vast experience, please.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 01:10:23 PM
I'm not attracted to women who have no problem putting down their own child.   barbaric cavewomen.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 30, 2013, 01:11:47 PM
Well, it's a good thing that women who are willing to abort their pregnancies don't fall under that category.

Though...what if you just wanted to punish them, and attraction was secondary to that goal?

Let's say you got angry at a bad movie and wanted to punish Scarlet Johansson, so you went and raped her.

She gets pregnant from it, of course, and you hope that she has to endure the punishment you've set up for her.

What moral obligation does she have to keep your offspring in her womb, DrTroll?  It's not yet a person.  Surely you'd like it to be, so that she would be forced suffer, but what is the rationale for labelling it as such?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 01:14:13 PM
Well, it's a good thing that women who are willing to abort their pregnancies don't fall under that category.

Though...what if you just wanted to punish them, and attraction was secondary to that goal?

Let's say you got angry at a bad movie and wanted to punish Scarlet Johansson, so you went and raped her.

She gets pregnant from it, of course, and you hope that she has to endure the punishment you've set up for her.

What moral obligation does she have to keep your offspring in her womb, DrTroll?  It's not yet a person.  Surely you'd like it to be, so that she would be forced suffer, but what is the rationale for labelling it as such?

Troll = Pro lifer laying it down on the internet. 

her obligation is to be a decent person is a civilized society.   neanderthals kill their offspring.   

do you think the man has no say in the matter?  takes two to tango

Scarlett would have a hard time keeping her hands off me because i am eye candy obviously.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 30, 2013, 01:20:43 PM
Well, it's a good thing that women who are willing to abort their pregnancies don't fall under that category.

Though...what if you just wanted to punish them, and attraction was secondary to that goal?

Let's say you got angry at a bad movie and wanted to punish Scarlet Johansson, so you went and raped her.

She gets pregnant from it, of course, and you hope that she has to endure the punishment you've set up for her.

What moral obligation does she have to keep your offspring in her womb, DrTroll?  It's not yet a person.  Surely you'd like it to be, so that she would be forced suffer, but what is the rationale for labelling it as such?

Troll = Pro lifer laying it down on the internet. 

her obligation is to be a decent person is a civilized society.   neanderthals kill their offspring.   

do you think the man has no say in the matter?  takes two to tango

Scarlett would have a hard time keeping her hands off me because i am eye candy obviously.

What does your wife say about this? Would she want Scarlett to have an abortion?

Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 30, 2013, 01:21:49 PM
Troll = Pro lifer laying it down on the internet.

The two are often pretty similar, I agree.  But I was referring to you in general.  Not all anti-abortion folks engage in your sort of trollish banter.

her obligation is to be a decent person is a civilized society.

Yes, but what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?  Plus, in this hypothetical you'd also raped her.  Was that a decent, civilized thing to do?

neanderthals kill their offspring.

And here I thought neanderthals were all dead.  Hmm.

do you think the man has no say in the matter?  takes two to tango

See above.  What say should a rapist have in the pregnancy of his victim?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 01:28:36 PM
Most pro-lifers would give exceptions for rape/incest/probable death of mother in childbirth.  that is only like 7 percent of abortions combined.
the other 93 percent would then be banned  for it is just about delayed birth control.

now, I have said that I support abortion if mothers will perform it themselves.   I will provide the coat hangars. 
I was watching Game of Thrones Season 1, and i think it was very first episode.   Ned Stark teaches his son that if he should behead any manwith his own sword that he sentences to die.  thus, it will not be so easy to sentence somebody to die.    So I think women should have to do the dirty deed themselves in abortion as they have senetnced the innocent to die.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on October 30, 2013, 01:45:07 PM
Quote
the other 93 percent would then be banned  for it is just about delayed birth control.

Once again proving you know nothing on the subject.

Not surprising.

Quote
Most pro-lifers would give exceptions for rape/incest/probable death of mother in childbirth.

Except in the case of the mother's life, this is the most disgusting position to hold. If you believe that abortion is wrong because of the inherent value of human life, then there should be absolutely NO exception in the case of rape or incest. Zip, zilch, nada.

But forced-birthers are all about punishment and control of women. They don't actually care about babies.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on October 30, 2013, 01:46:42 PM
So, it's apparently time to lay waste to the f**ing ridiculous argument that adoption is a viable alternative to abortion. It's flawed on both a physical level and an intellectual one but the biggest flaw of all is that this is really what these lying fucks are promoting. THAT is a complete crock of crap.

Let's start with the obvious - adoption is not an alternative to pregnancy, it's an alternative to parenting.  Proposing it as an alternative to pregnancy is deflection of the worst sort, and the majority of the dumbasses who try using this argument are shocked silent when this point is made - they've literally never thought about it. Yet they think they are better positioned than the pregnant woman to make decisions about her choices, the thick idiots. But this kind of dumb is not a surprise really.

The one I just can't get past is their apparent belief that everyone else is just as stupid.... if the pro-forced-birth crowd ACTUALLY meant what they say about adoption as a viable alternative - why in the F*CK do I not see a nationwide public awareness campaign aimed at educating people about adoption, instead of protests at Planned Parenthood clinic? Why are they not directing their time, energy, and resources at THEIR OWN PROPOSED ALTERNATIVE?

Because they're f'ing liars, that's why. And they rope in people like our good DrT, and encourage him to go out and spread the word, never realizing that some of us DO see their lying f'ing hypocrisy for exactly what it is -lying f'ing hypocrisy.

It's too bad the same can't be said of DrT, who seems to have swallowed it whole and accepted his task of regurgitating it to people who already know better.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 01:48:09 PM
you miss the political aspect.

if you don't give the exceptions for rape then you don't get anything.   only a fool operates on all or nothing.  if we can save 93 percent of babies from brutal homicide then we take that that.   

obviously a raped woman did not have consensual sex so that is a complicated situation. 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 01:52:08 PM
lol, well I guess we need to advertise something seemingly obvious like the option of adoption  to women who could not figure out the whole birth control thing.   lol

birth is not forced, it is natural.   abortion is forced.   your body as a woman is designed to give birth, not give an abortion. 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 30, 2013, 01:57:12 PM

Well, it's a good thing that women who are willing to abort their pregnancies don't fall under that category.

Though...what if you just wanted to punish them, and attraction was secondary to that goal?

Let's say you got angry at a bad movie and wanted to punish Scarlet Johansson, so you went and raped her.

She gets pregnant from it, of course, and you hope that she has to endure the punishment you've set up for her.

What moral obligation does she have to keep your offspring in her womb, DrTroll?  It's not yet a person.  Surely you'd like it to be, so that she would be forced suffer, but what is the rationale for labelling it as such?

Troll = Pro lifer laying it down on the internet. 

her obligation is to be a decent person is a civilized society.   neanderthals kill their offspring.   

do you think the man has no say in the matter?  takes two to tango

Scarlett would have a hard time keeping her hands off me because i am eye candy obviously.

What does your wife say about this? Would she want Scarlett to have an abortion?

You avoided my question.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Zankuu on October 30, 2013, 01:58:52 PM
birth is not forced, it is natural.   abortion is forced.   your body as a woman is designed to give birth, not give an abortion.

Abortion is also a natural process. Your argument fails.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on October 30, 2013, 01:59:47 PM
Quote
you miss the political aspect.

if you don't give the exceptions for rape then you don't get anything.   only a fool operates on all or nothing.  if we can save 93 percent of babies from brutal homicide then we take that that.   

obviously a raped woman did not have consensual sex so that is a complicated situation. 

HA!  If you don't give exceptions for rape, then more people will truly question your motives and figure out that you don't actually care about babies, or any human beings for that matter.

Why do you think abortion is wrong? It's  "brutal homicide" right? Well, it's just as brutal and homicidal if the fetus is the result of rape or consensual sex. There is no complication.

Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 02:04:46 PM
Quote
you miss the political aspect.

if you don't give the exceptions for rape then you don't get anything.   only a fool operates on all or nothing.  if we can save 93 percent of babies from brutal homicide then we take that that.   

obviously a raped woman did not have consensual sex so that is a complicated situation. 

HA!  If you don't give exceptions for rape, then more people will truly question your motives and figure out that you don't actually care about babies, or any human beings for that matter.

Why do you think abortion is wrong? It's  "brutal homicide" right? Well, it's just as brutal and homicidal if the fetus is the result of rape or consensual sex. There is no complication.

You are doing what I call using the exception to the rule to argue the rule.   We can't ban any abortions unless we ban them all.   I'd rather be a hypocrite that saves 93 percent then a purist who save 0 percent.   

look to Lincoln,  free states and slave states.   don't go for it all at once.   

Consider Obama,  he wants single payer healthcare.  He knew that was not popular so he rolled out O-Care as a stepping stone to get there and as you can see,  most people are losing their plans via their employers and won't be long government is only option for healthcare.   
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on October 30, 2013, 02:08:08 PM
lol, well I guess we need to advertise something seemingly obvious like the option of adoption 
put your money where your typing fingers are, troll. Get your ass in motion on your own proposed solution or troll on. No real difference to me - you were not my target audience in any case.
Quote
to women who could not figure out the whole birth control thing.   lol
Typical misogynistic troll, Blaming the stupid women who can't figure out how to use birth control while forgetting that it takes two to cause a pregnancy.
Quote
birth is not forced,
Nice dodge. I'm aware that you are less stupid than you are portraying yourself as (good trolling does require a certain amount of intelligence), but you're also not anywhere near as smart as you think either.
Quote
it is natural.   abortion is forced.   your body as a woman is designed to give birth, not give an abortion.
What is your body "designed" for?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on October 30, 2013, 02:10:15 PM
Quote
you miss the political aspect.

if you don't give the exceptions for rape then you don't get anything.   only a fool operates on all or nothing.  if we can save 93 percent of babies from brutal homicide then we take that that.   

obviously a raped woman did not have consensual sex so that is a complicated situation. 

HA!  If you don't give exceptions for rape, then more people will truly question your motives and figure out that you don't actually care about babies, or any human beings for that matter.

Why do you think abortion is wrong? It's  "brutal homicide" right? Well, it's just as brutal and homicidal if the fetus is the result of rape or consensual sex. There is no complication.

You are doing what I call using the exception to the rule to argue the rule.   We can't ban any abortions unless we ban them all.   I'd rather be a hypocrite that saves 93 percent then a purist who save 0 percent.   

look to Lincoln,  free states and slave states.   don't go for it all at once.   

Consider Obama,  he wants single payer healthcare.  He knew that was not popular so he rolled out O-Care as a stepping stone to get there and as you can see,  most people are losing their plans via their employers and won't be long government is only option for healthcare.

You're doing a fantastic job of making my point for me, thank you! Keep up the good work troll, my side benefits from your kind of help!
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 02:15:35 PM
 My body is designed to give a woman who wants one a baby, and pleasure.   lol

I'm an internet Lincoln and I am laying down the rhetorical framework that will eventually lead to the demise of abortion much like he set the instiution of slavery on fire and watched it burn.   

How can I be anti-woman if I want to save female babies from slaughter?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on October 30, 2013, 02:22:31 PM
Quote
You are doing what I call using the exception to the rule to argue the rule.

No, I'm not.  When you're talking about murder, you don't allow any under the law. You don't say one murder is legal while another is not, especially when the "victim" is equally innocent in either case.

It's not legal for me to kill you if your father rapes me. Why should it be OK for a woman to "brutally" murder her fetus because it's father raped her? Of one is wrong, both are wrong.

You're only making the exception, because you know that abortion isn't the same as murder.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 30, 2013, 02:23:17 PM
I'm not attracted to women who have no problem putting down their own child.   barbaric cavewomen.

How would you know their opinion if you did not ask them their opinion?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 02:23:50 PM
All the males who support abortion are male pigs who want to be able to have casual sex and not deal with any unintended consequences.   These are basically Bill Clinton types.  The irony of abortion is it unites militant anti-men femi-nazis  with the male pigs like Clinton.  lol

Many males only say they are pro-abortion because they think that makes it easier for them to get a date with a young woman, who tend to be single issue voters on abortion.   So it really just pandering.

As people have told you: pro-choice does not equate to pro-abortion. If you weren't an idiot you'd know that.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: William on October 30, 2013, 02:25:09 PM
My body is designed to give a woman who wants one a baby, and pleasure.   lol

A woman who wants a man of intellect with a sense of humour beyond just lol is going to miss out ;D
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 02:26:22 PM
I'm not attracted to women who have no problem putting down their own child.   barbaric cavewomen.

I doubt they lose sleep over it, or any woman for that matter.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 02:28:22 PM
Quote
You are doing what I call using the exception to the rule to argue the rule.

No, I'm not.  When you're talking about murder, you don't allow any under the law. You don't say one murder is legal while another is not, especially when the "victim" is equally innocent in either case.

It's not legal for me to kill you if your father rapes me. Why should it be OK for a woman to "brutally" murder her fetus because it's father raped her? Of one is wrong, both are wrong.

You're only making the exception, because you know that abortion isn't the same as murder.

you are basically exploiting the rape of women who then get pregnant to make your case for abortion used as delayed birth control after casual sex.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 02:28:58 PM
Well, it's a good thing that women who are willing to abort their pregnancies don't fall under that category.

Though...what if you just wanted to punish them, and attraction was secondary to that goal?

Let's say you got angry at a bad movie and wanted to punish Scarlet Johansson, so you went and raped her.

She gets pregnant from it, of course, and you hope that she has to endure the punishment you've set up for her.

What moral obligation does she have to keep your offspring in her womb, DrTroll?  It's not yet a person.  Surely you'd like it to be, so that she would be forced suffer, but what is the rationale for labelling it as such?

Troll = Pro lifer laying it down on the internet. 

her obligation is to be a decent person is a civilized society.   neanderthals kill their offspring.   

do you think the man has no say in the matter?  takes two to tango

Scarlett would have a hard time keeping her hands off me because i am eye candy obviously.


This is hilariously sad. She, who in the hypothetical who you raped, has to be decent. Why couldn't you just not have (hypothetically) raped her. Where was your decency?

-Nam






Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on October 30, 2013, 02:36:09 PM
Quote
you are basically exploiting the rape of women who then get pregnant to make your case for abortion used as delayed birth control after casual sex.

Wrong again.  You're the one who thinks abortion is murder. I'm just not letting you say one murder is fine while another murder is not when the victims are equally innocent.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on October 30, 2013, 02:37:31 PM
My body is designed to give a woman who wants one a baby, and pleasure.   lol
I sincerely hope my assumption that you are NOT in reality, a complete bumbling idiot is true - in light of that I'm just going to point out that your logic is horribly flawed, and perhaps badly mistaken, and avoid the easy target you gave me here.
Quote
I'm an internet Lincoln
.....thanks for that - I laughed out loud for real.
Quote
and I am laying down the rhetorical framework that will eventually lead to the demise of abortion
How? You skipped right over the error in your thinking and made it a joke. Who can take you seriously? Your promoting adoption as a viable alternative but refusing to talk about it.
Quote
much like he set the instiution of slavery on fire and watched it burn.   
Good to know it's not just religious history you're horribly ignorant about.
Quote
How can I be anti-woman if I want to save female babies from slaughter?
What makes you think the two are mutually exclusive?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 02:42:11 PM
Quote
you are basically exploiting the rape of women who then get pregnant to make your case for abortion used as delayed birth control after casual sex.

Wrong again.  You're the one who thinks abortion is murder. I'm just not letting you say one murder is fine while another murder is not when the victims are equally innocent.

nah, see you basically need for there to be men raping women and getting them pregnant to have an argument for abortion at all.   I'm not letting you get away with that.   You never thought I could reverse that on you did you?   :)

I never said one murder was fine and the other isn't.  The babies are killed in both.  Although I would think in cases of rape they would give the woman the morning after one. 
  If we go with what you think,  more babies die.   If we go with what I think, 93 percent of babies live.   
so you can call me a hypocrite but I'm a hero to these babies as they get older. 

the raped women who have the babies =  heroes
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 02:44:02 PM
lol, well I guess we need to advertise something seemingly obvious like the option of adoption  to women who could not figure out the whole birth control thing.   lol

birth is not forced, it is natural.   abortion is forced.   your body as a woman is designed to give birth, not give an abortion. 

See, the first thing people like you do is outlaw abortion. The second thing people like you do is outlaw contraceptives, including condoms.

The third thing people like you do is send people to jail for having unlawful abortions, even in the case of rape, incest, and risk to the mother. And not just the doctors but anyone involved, including the mother, especially the mother.

The fourth thing you do is decide that abortion is 1st degree murder and send those involved, especially the mother, to their executions.

The fifth thing you do is attack anyone outside your society that supports abortion, verbally or otherwise.

The sixth thing you do is shoot yourself in the head for raping a girl and forcing her to have your baby because you care about life.

Frankly, I wish you'd skip the entire list and go to the last one.

*"you" is in general

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 30, 2013, 02:52:50 PM

I'm not attracted to women who have no problem putting down their own child.   barbaric cavewomen.

How do you know their opinion if you do not ask them their opinion?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on October 30, 2013, 02:54:00 PM
Quote
nah, see you basically need for there to be men raping women and getting them pregnant
It happens every day.

Quote
to have an argument for abortion at all.

Nope, wrong again!

The rape exception only comes into play with people like you who want to make one.  You called it a "complicated situation" which means YOU have room in your argument. YOU don't think one murder is equal to another.

I think murder is murder. I just don't think abortion is murder, you do.

Quote
You never thought I could reverse that on you did you?   :)

You didn't.  There is no hypocrisy in my ethical stance like there is in yours.

Quote
I never said one murder was fine and the other isn't.  The babies are killed in both.  Although I would think in cases of rape they would give the woman the morning after one.

Really?  You said it right there!  If you don't think a raped woman should be forced to carry to term, you are saying one murder is fine.

 
Quote
If we go with what you think,  more babies die.   If we go with what I think, 93 percent of babies live.
 

98% of statistics are made up on the spot.

Quote
so you can call me a hypocrite but I'm a hero to these babies as they get older.

No, you're not. Because you have expressed absolutely no interest in bettering the lives they'll be born into. You will not adopt or mentor a single one. You will not buy one of their mothers a bottle of formula to feed them, and you will call them murders if they end up needing abortions themselves one day. 

Quote
the raped women who have the babies =  heroes

Not if they have no choice in the matter. Which someone who truly thought abortion was murder wouldn't allow.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 30, 2013, 02:55:46 PM

her obligation is to be a decent person is a civilized society.   neanderthals kill their offspring.   

do you think the man has no say in the matter?  takes two to tango

Scarlett would have a hard time keeping her hands off me because i am eye candy obviously.

If you were married what do you think your wife would say about this? Would she want Scarlett to have an abortion?

You avoided my question again.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on October 30, 2013, 02:58:10 PM
Quote
You avoided my question again.

That's about the only thing he's good at.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 02:59:54 PM
lol, here we go again.    So I would need to take care of every slave  after they were freed , to oppose slavery?   That is your dumb logic.

person who supports abortion does not have the moral high ground on somebody who does not. 

the rape scenario is complicated b/c the woman did not have consensual sex and having the baby of her rapist could be a pyschiatric issue for her.   So I see it as a miscarriage forced by situation.  She's  not murdering the baby.   You basically accusing a raped woman who chooses not to have her baby of murder.   The baby is killed but it is not murder.   Murder is putting the baby down b/c all you wanted was a good time with the random man you meet at a bar.

I will not apologize for being able to see grey rather than make every situation a black and white thing. 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 03:00:21 PM
Quote
You avoided my question again.

That's about the only thing he's good at.

Don't tell him that. It may boost his ego.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 03:02:18 PM
Looks like they are going to ban me soon.

Trolling =  expressing pro-life opinions on an opinion board
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: screwtape on October 30, 2013, 03:04:23 PM
Are the guys on this thread planning on getting pregnant soon?   lol

i wouldn't think a male would care enough about the ability to have an legal abortion to want to talk about it on the internet.

You are unable to empathize with women?  I do not find that unsurprising.



The Bible is not source authority on the nature of "God", if "God" exists.  So quoting the Bible to show "hypocrisy"  is silly.   

you are the one who brought "thou shalt not kill" into the conversation.


Pro-lifers are pro-innocent life.

Not really.  For one, it is well established that numerous innocent people have been executed under the death penalty.  If they really were against the death of innocents, they would want the death penalty abolished. 

For two, they only seem to care about the fertilized egg.  Once the fetus exits the uterus, they adopt a You're On Your Own attitude.  People who actually care about living children support a robust social safety net. 

For three, if they really cared about prenatal care (they don't) they would support Planned Parenthood.  Most of what they do relates to women's health and prenatal care. Instead, they are willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Liberals are pro-death, they are pro-abortion and pro-murderer not getting the death penalty.

This is why you are called Dr Troll.  This is a really stupid and intentionally inflamatory thing to say.  It seems to me you have run out of actual arguments and are down to insults.


Let me offer some genuine help.  Right now you are just puking your stupid opinions onto our forum over and over.  It is unconvincing.  You need to provided facts and data.  You need a coherent argument.  So far, you've got neither. 

If I were you, I would do one of two things.  One would be to establish that a fertilized egg should be considered a human being, with all the rights of one, and why we should believe it.  The other would be to establish that a fertilized egg has more rights to a woman's uterus than she does, and why we should agree. 

There.  I laid it all out for you.  Fill in the blanks.

 

Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: screwtape on October 30, 2013, 03:06:07 PM
discussion of moderation is not allowed in thread.  please keep on topic.  If you have questions about moderation, you may PM a staff member.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 03:07:47 PM
discussion of moderation is not allowed in thread.  please keep on topic.  If you have questions about moderation, you may PM a staff member.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 30, 2013, 03:09:07 PM
Sorry to nitpick, Screw, but...

I do not find that unsurprising.

Intentional double negative, or..?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 03:11:07 PM
lol, here we go again.    So I would need to take care of every slave  after they were freed , to oppose slavery?   That is your dumb logic.

person who supports abortion does not have the moral high ground on somebody who does not. 

the rape scenario is complicated b/c the woman did not have consensual sex and having the baby of her rapist could be a pyschiatric issue for her.   So I see it as a miscarriage forced by situation.  She's  not murdering the baby.   You basically accusing a raped woman who chooses not to have her baby of murder.   The baby is killed but it is not murder.   Murder is putting the baby down b/c all you wanted was a good time with the random man you meet at a bar.

I will not apologize for being able to see grey rather than make every situation a black and white thing. 

You just don't get the societal conditions that would have to be met. And you obviously don't care.

All life is precious. Which to you isn't even true because if it were then you wouldn't state that if women want an abortion they should do it to themselves which more than likely will kill them, which you're advocating for. Their death.

You don't care about life, people like you never do.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 03:13:46 PM
Don't we pay taxes to help the poor?  You act like there is no safety net for the poor.   So what are paying taxes for?

I think it is amusing pro abortioners try to call us hypocrites because  most of us support death penalty for murderers,  but seems to me that makes you a hypocrite b/c you care more about murderers than babies.   

The majjority of abortions are not of a "fertilized egg"...the baby has brain waves, a beating heart, nevrous system and it reacts violenting when the abortion procedure starts crushing it.

Most of what Planned Parenthoood does is abortion ,  the other stuff is just cover.     I'm not agaist tPP doing the other stuff, but they shouldn't get tax dollars to do abortions.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 03:16:01 PM
discussion of moderation is not allowed in thread.  please keep on topic.  If you have questions about moderation, you may PM a staff member.

lol,  I know it is you giving me the warnings, screw.

if you were serious about the rules,  that Nam creep wouldn't be posting on here anymore.   dude is a bag of hostility.   I could see that dude shooting up a school or something.

Only a school with idiots like you in it but then I'd have to own a gun, which I don't but I bet you own several.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on October 30, 2013, 03:17:34 PM
25% of all abortions in this country are performed on married women.

31 states allow men who father through rape to assert the same custody and visitation rights to their child or children. The perpetrator is permitted to continue tormenting the victim by legally supported means, regardless of conviction status. Only two studies have ever analyzed the outcomes of pregnancies from rape, but they both indicate that at least 30% of these women do chose to complete the pregnancy and raise the child – would that number be higher with better laws in place to shield both mother and child from the rapist?

Why is there no birth control pill for MEN?

No person can be forced to donate any part of their body (organs, blood, plasma, anything bodily whatsoever) - why is this the only circumstances that allows this argument to be ignored? There's no question of the legal status of the mother - she is a person with all the legal protections she's entitled to as a citizen of the US. The same cannot be said of the potential future human she carries.

Plenty more facts where these came from - on my desktop, after being researched in depth. Hell, I can even give you links to credible sources so you can see for yourse... oh snap, never mind, I forgot who I was talking to.

Bring on your baseless opinion DrT. I appreciate all that you are doing here.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 03:18:32 PM
Don't we pay taxes to help the poor?  You act like there is no safety net for the poor.   So what are paying taxes for?

I think it is amusing pro abortioners try to call us hypocrites because  most of us support death penalty for murderers,  but seems to me that makes you a hypocrite b/c you care more about murderers than babies.   

The majjority of abortions are not of a "fertilized egg"...the baby has brain waves, a beating heart, nevrous system and it reacts violenting when the abortion procedure starts crushing it.

Most of what Planned Parenthoood does is abortion ,  the other stuff is just cover.     I'm not agaist tPP doing the other stuff, but they shouldn't get tax dollars to do abortions.

Oh, so our taxes just go to the poor. You keep bringing that up as if it were the case. If all our taxes went to the poor than I'd believe the poor would be nonexistent but since our taxes don't go just to the poor your incompetency on the matter is quite vivid.

Try again.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on October 30, 2013, 03:19:56 PM
Don't we pay taxes to help the poor?  You act like there is no safety net for the poor.   So what are paying taxes for?

Keep it up dude, you're actually making my argument for me - you can not be this stupid. Do you really think this is what "your" taxes are going toward?

Fuck me bloody man, the internet is right at your fingertips. Stop telling the whole world how pig-ignorant you are - and stop saying things so stupid they lead me to insult pigs!
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 03:20:46 PM
25% of all abortions in this country are performed on married women.

31 states allow men who father through rape to assert the same custody and visitation rights to their child or children. The perpetrator is permitted to continue tormenting the victim by legally supported means, regardless of conviction status. Only two studies have ever analyzed the outcomes of pregnancies from rape, but they both indicate that at least 30% of these women do chose to complete the pregnancy and raise the child – would that number be higher with better laws in place to shield both mother and child from the rapist?

Why is there no birth control pill for MEN?

No person can be forced to donate any part of their body (organs, blood, plasma, anything bodily whatsoever) - why is this the only circumstances that allows this argument to be ignored? There's no question of the legal status of the mother - she is a person with all the legal protections she's entitled to as a citizen of the US. The same cannot be said of the potential future human she carries.

Plenty more facts where these came from - on my desktop, after being researched in depth. Hell, I can even give you links to credible sources so you can see for yourse... oh snap, never mind, I forgot who I was talking to.

Bring on your baseless opinion DrT. I appreciate all that you are doing here.

You should provide sources, saying it doesn't make so. Which is our point to them.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 30, 2013, 03:20:54 PM
The right-wingers who oppose legal abortion also tend to oppose taxes to help the poor.

Punishment is a much more sensible explanation of their motives than concern for human life is.  The former involves no hypocrisy; the latter involves obvious, unavoidable hypocrisy.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 03:21:02 PM
Jag,

Have you ever seen the movie Doubt?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on October 30, 2013, 03:24:38 PM
Quote
Don't we pay taxes to help the poor?  You act like there is no safety net for the poor.   So what are paying taxes for?

So, because you do the bare minimum that's legally required of you to promote the welfare of your fellow humans, you expect us to applaud you? you expect us to exempt you from the moral responsibilities the position you have taken up obligates you to?

You don't have to take care of all the unwanted babies, you just have to take care of ONE.  For such a grand alternative to abortion, you seem excessively loathe to help out in any way more than the very least you can possibly do.


Quote
The majjority of abortions are not of a "fertilized egg"...the baby has brain waves, a beating heart, nevrous system and it reacts violenting when the abortion procedure starts crushing it.

Most of what Planned Parenthoood does is abortion ,  the other stuff is just cover.     I'm not agaist tPP doing the other stuff, but they shouldn't get tax dollars to do abortions.

Fiction and fact are not the same things. Perhaps you should look up the definition of each and educate yourself.  In fact, you should educate yourself on a lot more than that, but as you're so excessively fond of doing the absolute least, I'll give you that option.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 30, 2013, 03:25:00 PM

lol,  I know it is you giving me the warnings, screw.

if you were serious about the rules,  that Nam creep wouldn't be posting on here anymore.   dude is a bag of hostility.   I could see that dude shooting up a school or something.

Insults like that are not a good idea, especially as you said earlier that you do not insult people. I doubt anyone here would go that far even about the most delusional person.

I am very reluctant to use insults. I have only used "idiot" a few times (all to you I think).

How about answering my questions.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 03:25:12 PM
The right-wingers who oppose legal abortion also tend to oppose taxes to help the poor.

Punishment is a much more sensible explanation of their motives than concern for human life is.  The former involves no hypocrisy; the latter involves obvious, unavoidable hypocrisy.

we are overtaxed,  if the poor aren't getting their entitlements that is on the leftwingers.  I guarantee those democrat pols are getting paid though.   lol

Leftwingers propose the higher taxes,  right wingers are the ones who pay them.   lol

you guys just trying to shift the moral high ground from the pro-lifers to your side.    studies have shown red states give more to charity than people in blue states.   Obama won't even send his brother over in Africa who lives in squalor in a hut  100 dollars which would be like 10 times what he has now.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 03:27:26 PM

lol,  I know it is you giving me the warnings, screw.

if you were serious about the rules,  that Nam creep wouldn't be posting on here anymore.   dude is a bag of hostility.   I could see that dude shooting up a school or something.

Insults like that are not a good idea, especially as you said earlier that you do not insult people. I doubt anyone here would go that far even about the most delusional person.

I am very reluctant to use insults. I have only used "idiot" a few times (all to you I think).

How about answering my questions.

foxy i didn't respond b/c I thought you were flirting with me again.    what was your question, love?

Nam has admitted that all he does is insult.   Plus he is a high school drop out.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on October 30, 2013, 03:30:19 PM
The majjority of abortions are not of a "fertilized egg"...the baby has brain waves, a beating heart, nevrous system and it reacts violenting when the abortion procedure starts crushing it.

Most of what Planned Parenthoood does is abortion ,  the other stuff is just cover.     I'm not agaist tPP doing the other stuff, but they shouldn't get tax dollars to do abortions.
Both of these points are fatually incorrect to the point of being outright lies.

Almost every post by you in this thread is either an evasion or an outright lie.

Please, trot off to tell your buddies how you got shut down on an atheist website for talking about being pro-life... but I bet my last dollar you won't send them here to read what was said. And you'll try to convince yourself that you had some sort of victory too. Pathetic and dishonest, but what we've come to expect.

It's really too bad - if you didn't act like such a troll you would have learned a few things that might have actually helped in some small way to resolve this issue, but you decided to do this instead.

What purpose could you possibly be trying to convince yourself you are serving?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on October 30, 2013, 03:31:55 PM
Jag,

Have you ever seen the movie Doubt?

If you want to talk to me, stick to addressing what I've said to you already. This ^^^ is changing the subject.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: One Above All on October 30, 2013, 03:32:20 PM
Guys/Girls, just leave DrTesla to his moronic ideas. He's not worth it, which is why I've given up on getting an answer from him. He's not worthy to speak to a god like Me.[1]
 1. Applies to the other gods on the forum as well.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 03:33:52 PM
The majjority of abortions are not of a "fertilized egg"...the baby has brain waves, a beating heart, nevrous system and it reacts violenting when the abortion procedure starts crushing it.

Most of what Planned Parenthoood does is abortion ,  the other stuff is just cover.     I'm not agaist tPP doing the other stuff, but they shouldn't get tax dollars to do abortions.
Both of these points are fatually incorrect to the point of being outright lies.

Almost every post by you in this thread is either an evasion or an outright lie.

Please, trot off to tell your buddies how you got shut down on an atheist website for talking about being pro-life... but I bet my last dollar you won't send them here to read what was said. And you'll try to convince yourself that you had some sort of victory too. Pathetic and dishonest, but what we've come to expect.

It's really too bad - if you didn't act like such a troll you would have learned a few things that might have actually helped in some small way to resolve this issue, but you decided to do this instead.

What purpose could you possibly be trying to convince yourself you are serving?

I'm just telling you what I think on the issue.   I can't help if I persuade millions of people in the process.   I am a master Rhetorician and I don't need  the O-prompter.    lol 

I don't mind being banned for my ballsy pro-life stand on a atheist website.   I will be viewed as a hero if they make me a martyr.   
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 30, 2013, 03:34:54 PM

her obligation is to be a decent person is a civilized society.   neanderthals kill their offspring.   

do you think the man has no say in the matter?  takes two to tango

Scarlett would have a hard time keeping her hands off me because i am eye candy obviously.

If you were married what do you think your wife would say about this? Would she want Scarlett to have an abortion?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on October 30, 2013, 03:35:46 PM
Quote
Guys/Girls, just leave DrTesla to his moronic ideas. He's not worth it, which is why I've given up on getting an answer from him.

I'm in complete agreement.

I'd be laughing at his idiocy if it weren't so frightening and sad.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 03:38:17 PM

her obligation is to be a decent person is a civilized society.   neanderthals kill their offspring.   

do you think the man has no say in the matter?  takes two to tango

Scarlett would have a hard time keeping her hands off me because i am eye candy obviously.

If you were married what do you think your wife would say about this? Would she want Scarlett to have an abortion?

since i'm not married, i cannot tell you what my hypothetical wife would say.   I'm thinking that I wouldn't tell the wife and I'd pay child support to Scarlett although she probably doesn't need it since she makes a million dollars per movie. 

but, I don't commit adultery.   I'm not a good liar and I hate a liar and adultery is essentially lying/betrayal.    my women are all over me all the time like i am a machine so i don't even get a chance to sneak off with another one and be her baby daddy.   

lol

the movie Doubt is a good one.  watch it and then think about the message in relation to abortion issue.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on October 30, 2013, 03:39:48 PM
Nam has admitted that all he does is insult.   Plus he is a high school drop out.

You never did answer my question (you Dodgeball Master, you!) about what you DO with that degree you went out of your way to mention. What was it you claimed to have a degree in? Mechanical engineering was it? How's that working our for ya?

Go ahead and take a minute or two to come up with yet another lie, I'll wait...

Actually, most of my irritation with the real world has been vented for now. I'll be back later to catch up on your stories. I'm expecting some good ones so don't disappoint me!
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 03:39:49 PM

lol,  I know it is you giving me the warnings, screw.

if you were serious about the rules,  that Nam creep wouldn't be posting on here anymore.   dude is a bag of hostility.   I could see that dude shooting up a school or something.

Insults like that are not a good idea, especially as you said earlier that you do not insult people. I doubt anyone here would go that far even about the most delusional person.

I am very reluctant to use insults. I have only used "idiot" a few times (all to you I think).

How about answering my questions.

foxy i didn't respond b/c I thought you were flirting with me again.    what was your question, love?

Nam has admitted that all he does is insult.   Plus he is a high school drop out.

Where did I say "all I do is insult" -- you sure like to lie, don't you?

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on October 30, 2013, 03:41:07 PM
I'm not a good liar
Yes DrT, we've noticed. It's making me wonder why you keep doing it, even knowing that you pretty much suck at it.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 03:41:39 PM
Guys/Girls, just leave DrTesla to his moronic ideas. He's not worth it, which is why I've given up on getting an answer from him. He's not worthy to speak to a god like Me.[1]
 1. Applies to the other gods on the forum as well.

And us devils. ;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 30, 2013, 03:42:41 PM

lol,  I know it is you giving me the warnings, screw.

if you were serious about the rules,  that Nam creep wouldn't be posting on here anymore.   dude is a bag of hostility.   I could see that dude shooting up a school or something.

Insults like that are not a good idea, especially as you said earlier that you do not insult people. I doubt anyone here would go that far even about the most delusional person.

I am very reluctant to use insults. I have only used "idiot" a few times (all to you I think).

How about answering my questions.

foxy i didn't respond b/c I thought you were flirting with me again.    what was your question, love?

Nam has admitted that all he does is insult.   Plus he is a high school drop out.

If you underestimate people and they beat you in an argument, how would that look?

Don't get so revengeful. You break easily under pressure.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on October 30, 2013, 03:49:36 PM
25% of all abortions in this country are performed on married women.

31 states allow men who father through rape to assert the same custody and visitation rights to their child or children. The perpetrator is permitted to continue tormenting the victim by legally supported means, regardless of conviction status. Only two studies have ever analyzed the outcomes of pregnancies from rape, but they both indicate that at least 30% of these women do chose to complete the pregnancy and raise the child – would that number be higher with better laws in place to shield both mother and child from the rapist?

Why is there no birth control pill for MEN?

No person can be forced to donate any part of their body (organs, blood, plasma, anything bodily whatsoever) - why is this the only circumstances that allows this argument to be ignored? There's no question of the legal status of the mother - she is a person with all the legal protections she's entitled to as a citizen of the US. The same cannot be said of the potential future human she carries.

Plenty more facts where these came from - on my desktop, after being researched in depth. Hell, I can even give you links to credible sources so you can see for yourse... oh snap, never mind, I forgot who I was talking to.

Bring on your baseless opinion DrT. I appreciate all that you are doing here.

You should provide sources, saying it doesn't make so. Which is our point to them.

-Nam

Agreed. I'm actually cleaning up (making it easy for anyone else to read) a metric shit ton of information from my spring project and intend to post a wall of text, complete with links, so DrT can ignore it.

I should have stated that in my post above, my apologies. It will be up soon, hopefully before tomorrow. Lots of useful factual information worthy of discussion in it's own right. I think I'll make it a new topic and just point at it from here so it's easy to get to. Maybe we can minimize the clutter that's going to spill over from DrT, who won't read it but will be fully prepared to argue about it.   :o
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 03:52:37 PM
One tends to wonder if Jag would read pro-life "propaganda"  if I posted it on here.   

Boom.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: One Above All on October 30, 2013, 03:54:13 PM
And us devils. ;)

I think skeptic54768 would disagree with you there.

-Nam

-One
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on October 30, 2013, 03:54:54 PM
Quote
One tends to wonder if Jag would read pro-life "propaganda"  if I posted it on here.   

Boom.

One wouldn't need wonder since it's evident that she has been reading all the propaganda you have been posting.

Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 03:55:38 PM
One tends to wonder if Jag would read pro-life "propaganda"  if I posted it on here.   

Boom.

I don't doubt she wouldn't but doesn't mean she'd agreed with it. But that's the difference between you and us, we follow your links, and what you say, you ignore everything we say.

That makes you a troll.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 03:56:46 PM
And us devils. ;)

I think skeptic54768 would disagree with you there.

-Nam

-One

To him you're a demongod devil.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 03:59:19 PM
Nam
You are a blowhard, and angry for no rational reason.    You seem to want to talk about yourself and then you get up on your soapbox about what Science is and what Science isn't,  and this is after you told us you  couldn't graduate high school because math is too hard.   

stop stalking me on here, i already told you that i don't want to talk to you.   i get you don't like me, you don't need to express that a million more times and clutter up the forums with your awesome putdowns, as you see it.   get up out of my face, bro
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 30, 2013, 04:00:26 PM

her obligation is to be a decent person is a civilized society.   neanderthals kill their offspring.   

do you think the man has no say in the matter?  takes two to tango

Scarlett would have a hard time keeping her hands off me because i am eye candy obviously.

If you were married what do you think your wife would say about this? Would she want Scarlett to have an abortion?

since i'm not married, i cannot tell you what my hypothetical wife would say.   I'm thinking that I wouldn't tell the wife and I'd pay child support to Scarlett although she probably doesn't need it since she makes a million dollars per movie. 

but, I don't commit adultery.   I'm not a good liar and I hate a liar and adultery is essentially lying/betrayal.    my women are all over me all the time like i am a machine so i don't even get a chance to sneak off with another one and be her baby daddy.   

lol

the movie Doubt is a good one.  watch it and then think about the message in relation to abortion issue.

I think you are right that you are not a good liar, but I don't think you " hate a liar". You are a compulsive liar. You just make up anything to lead people on. First you tell me you have a wife now you say you are not married.


Foxy

You appear to memorize every little throwaway quip that I make while ignoring my substantive posts on here.   Yet you are the Guardian of Science TM?   

You are starting to remind me of my wife, always trying to prove I am wrong about something trivial or told a "white lie".
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on October 30, 2013, 04:01:54 PM
One tends to wonder if Jag would read pro-life "propaganda"  if I posted it on here.   

Boom.

I actually BURST out laughing when I read that! I think I startled my neighbor's dog.

I really wish I could stay put and run with this but I have to leave soon, duty calls and I must answer. Keep it up dude, you're lifting my mood on a cloudy, rainy, icky day and I appreciate it.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on October 30, 2013, 04:04:46 PM
Is Dr T still here? Oh, yes, I hear the annoying mosquito-like buzzing. Did he just refer to himself as "ballsy" for typing words? I swear, that redefines the term "ballsy" bigtime.

Is he still bragging about not wanting to actually do anything for women or kids?  Because he already pays too much in taxes, and charity takes care of everyone who needs it. The fact: the economically successful blue states subsidize the poor and unemployed in the stingy, conservative, ignorant, bible-belt red states.....where they don't even want to pay for sex ed or birth control. Or roads.  http://www.downsizinggovernment.org/red-state-subsidies

And the US is the lowest taxed of all industrialized countries. He could look up the numbers, but he won't. http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/background/numbers/international.cfm

And is he still on record as wanting women to die--along with the fetus--trying to have unsafe abortions? It could be a middle-aged single mother of four who is just not willing to deal with another pregnancy. But she should bleed to death in excruciating pain from infection, leaving her other children orphans. That happened a lot in Romania after the dictator made abortion illegal. Still happens in many poor countries. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2709326/

Yeah, he sounds like he really cares about women and babies alright. Definitely pro-some-life-when-it-is-inside-a-woman's-uterus-[1] but-not-given-a-second-thought-after-it-is-born.

And, please, don't let him say anything else uninformed and ignorant about the history of slavery in the US--which he clearly knows jack sh!t about... &)
 1. unless she was a teenage virgin legal US citizen raped in an alley after leaving church services, by a masked man of a difference race at gunpoint, and has video so he can watch it, then maybe if she asks nicely she can have a legal, safe abortion
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 04:05:22 PM
Nam
You are a blowhard, and angry for no rational reason.    You seem to want to talk about yourself and then you get up on your soapbox about what Science is and what Science isn't,  and this is after you told us you  couldn't graduate high school because math is too hard.   

stop stalking me on here, i already told you that i don't want to talk to you.   i get you don't like me, you don't need to express that a million more times and clutter up the forums with your awesome putdowns, as you see it.   get up out of my face, bro

I'm sorry, what angry thing have I said today? I think I'm quite calm. Actually, the more irate you become the more calm I become.

My soapbox? What science is or isn't? Oh, that Creationism/ID isn't science. Did that anger you? Did I hit a nerve? Poor baby.

I didn't say "math is too hard" I said "I am poor at math". I can do basic math, beyond that it's all gibberish to me.

I hate to break it to you, DT, this isn't your website. This isn't even your topic. I'm not stalking you. You're delusional.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 04:07:06 PM
Oh, I don't like or dislike you DT, if I did you'd be on my ignore list, most likely.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jdawg70 on October 30, 2013, 04:17:33 PM
I think you are right that you are not a good liar, but I don't think you " hate a liar". You are a compulsive liar. You just make up anything to lead people on. First you tell me you have a wife now you say you are not married.
Oh, come on Foxy Freedom.  You act like people are supposed to be accountable for the words that they say.  That's just crazy talk.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: One Above All on October 30, 2013, 04:18:09 PM
To him you're a demongod devil.

And to birthers Obama wasn't born in the USA. Truth and belief aren't always the same.

-Nam

-One
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on October 30, 2013, 04:18:42 PM
My meeting just got pushed back an hour, so I have time for another fun point for DrT to ponder.

I'm an ordained minister - this is the truth. All I need to do to open my own adoption agency, free from any legal oversight due to the religious organization exemption, is find myself an unscrupulous lawyer, or an idealistic one, and declare myself in business.

That's a very real part of the solution you are advocating for by claiming that adoption is a viable alternative. There's absolutely nothing to stop any swinging dick with a bright idea from doing exactly what I just described.

Great solution from a rhetorical master, eh?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jdawg70 on October 30, 2013, 04:19:04 PM
Oh, I don't like or dislike you DT, if I did you'd be on my ignore list, most likely.

-Nam
You put people you like on your ignore list?
*ducks*
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 04:19:35 PM
inflammatory, off topic post removed
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 30, 2013, 04:20:55 PM
I think you are right that you are not a good liar, but I don't think you " hate a liar". You are a compulsive liar. You just make up anything to lead people on. First you tell me you have a wife now you say you are not married.
Oh, come on Foxy Freedom.  You act like people are supposed to be accountable for the words that they say.  That's just crazy talk.

Yes, and if tesla is not sure if he has a wife, that could lead to several abortions.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on October 30, 2013, 04:21:44 PM
Dr. T, did you really attack Nam for not having finished high school? Tease other kids in middle school for wearing goodwill clothes, didja? Were you the jerk walking behind the kid with cerebral palsy, imitating his limp so your social failure friends would laugh? >:(

See what you have gone and done, Dr. T? You have made our resident prickly curmudgeon Nam sound like a reasonable, sensible--nay--lovable and cuddly character. Only you could have done it. I want to take Nam home and wrap him up in a warm, fluffy blankie. :-*

Bully. A$$hole. D!ckhead. You make yourself--and by extension people who share your views-- look worse and worse. Keep it up. :angel:
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 04:22:46 PM
Oh, I don't like or dislike you DT, if I did you'd be on my ignore list, most likely.

-Nam
You put people you like on your ignore list?
*ducks*

Do I like anyone?

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 04:24:31 PM
Dr. T, did you really attack Nam for not having finished high school? Tease other kids in middle school for wearing goodwill clothes, didja? Were you the jerk walking behind the kid with cerebral palsy, imitating his limp so your social failure friends would laugh? >:(

See what you have gone and done, Dr. T? You have made our resident prickly curmudgeon Nam sound like a reasonable, sensible--nay--lovable and cuddly character. Only you could have done it. I want to take Nam home and wrap him up in a warm, fluffy blankie. :-*

Bully. A$$hole. D!ckhead. You make yourself--and by extension people who share your views-- look worse and worse. Keep it up. :angel:

lol, given the fact he's called me stupid a million times and claimed he is smarter than me then I think it is legit for me to point out he couldn't finish high school.  He offered that info,  i don't care about that loser one way or another.       I can see him being the loser in high school who bullied the smart kids for being smart.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on October 30, 2013, 04:26:23 PM
Libs still talking about "birthers"  cuz they can't talk abuot how awesome the economy has been under O  or  the disaster that is O care.

Desperately grabbing at straws in the face of the a$$kcking his nonsense is getting = willfully ignorant = idiot.

Notice how I explain why every time? Come on you big coward, tackle the issues at hand without resorting to this dodge.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 04:28:32 PM
Libs still talking about "birthers"  cuz they can't talk abuot how awesome the economy has been under O  or  the disaster that is O care.

Desperately grabbing at straws in the face of the a$$kcking his nonsense is getting = willfully ignorant = idiot.

Notice how I explain why every time? Come on you big coward, tackle the issues at hand without resorting to this dodge.

your last point made no sense at all.   Sounded like you said you could start an adoption agency, and somehow this proves me wrong on adoption being a solution for women who had an "unwanted" kid  or was poor, etc.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: magicmiles on October 30, 2013, 04:29:08 PM
I want to take Nam home and wrap him up in a warm, fluffy blankie. :-*


I want photos.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 04:29:22 PM
Libs still talking about "birthers"  cuz they can't talk abuot how awesome the economy has been under O  or  the disaster that is O care.   

Don't you think the Repubes in Congress who have basically done absolutely nothing for the country, almost put it in economical ruin, deserve some or most of the blame?

Congress has a 9% approval rating. You think that that's just the percentage for the Democrats? What are you smoking.

Immigration Reform could save the Republican party and they don't even want to talk about it. They are destroying themselves and they want to take everyone with them.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 04:31:51 PM
Dr. T, did you really attack Nam for not having finished high school? Tease other kids in middle school for wearing goodwill clothes, didja? Were you the jerk walking behind the kid with cerebral palsy, imitating his limp so your social failure friends would laugh? >:(

See what you have gone and done, Dr. T? You have made our resident prickly curmudgeon Nam sound like a reasonable, sensible--nay--lovable and cuddly character. Only you could have done it. I want to take Nam home and wrap him up in a warm, fluffy blankie. :-*

Bully. A$$hole. D!ckhead. You make yourself--and by extension people who share your views-- look worse and worse. Keep it up. :angel:

I'm not cuddly!

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on October 30, 2013, 04:32:17 PM
Libs still talking about "birthers"  cuz they can't talk abuot how awesome the economy has been under O  or  the disaster that is O care.

Desperately grabbing at straws in the face of the a$$kcking his nonsense is getting = willfully ignorant = idiot.

Notice how I explain why every time? Come on you big coward, tackle the issues at hand without resorting to this dodge.

your last point made no sense at all.   Sounded like you said you could start an adoption agency, and somehow this proves me wrong on adoption being a solution for women who had an "unwanted" kid  or was poor, etc.

Am I giving you too much credit? Are you actually too thick to get it? If so, I apologize for talking so far over your head.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 04:33:22 PM
Dr. T, did you really attack Nam for not having finished high school? Tease other kids in middle school for wearing goodwill clothes, didja? Were you the jerk walking behind the kid with cerebral palsy, imitating his limp so your social failure friends would laugh? >:(

See what you have gone and done, Dr. T? You have made our resident prickly curmudgeon Nam sound like a reasonable, sensible--nay--lovable and cuddly character. Only you could have done it. I want to take Nam home and wrap him up in a warm, fluffy blankie. :-*

Bully. A$$hole. D!ckhead. You make yourself--and by extension people who share your views-- look worse and worse. Keep it up. :angel:

lol, given the fact he's called me stupid a million times and claimed he is smarter than me then I think it is legit for me to point out he couldn't finish high school.  He offered that info,  i don't care about that loser one way or another.       I can see him being the loser in high school who bullied the smart kids for being smart.

I never claimed to be smarter than you--i am smarter than you.

Not a claim, it's a fact.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 04:36:51 PM
I think it's humorous he thinks I was a bully in HS. 6,000+ students. Bullies weren't the thing to worry about in my HS; the gangs were. The race riots were.

Bullies HA!

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 04:37:59 PM
I want to take Nam home and wrap him up in a warm, fluffy blankie. :-*


I want photos.

I AM NOT CUDDLY!

:'(

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 04:39:45 PM
how do you add somebody to an ignore list on here.   my stalker needs to go. 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 04:40:45 PM
how do you add somebody to an ignore list on here.   my stalker needs to go. 

I will still see your comments and respond to them. Can't prevent that.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on October 30, 2013, 04:41:12 PM
Damn dude, you're really not willing to figure out ANYTHING for yourself are you?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 04:42:17 PM
well, yeah.  it is about me not seeing them.  hence "ignore".
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 04:43:32 PM
Damn dude, you're really not willing to figure out ANYTHING for yourself are you?

jag, i think you are too hippie for me to understand.   i don't how you argue logically that adoption isn't a solution to the unwanted baby question. 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 04:43:37 PM
[How did that happen?]

This isn't your topic. This is epedemic's topic. You don't own this topic. You don't own this website. I can talk or respond to anyone I please. If you don't like it then you leave.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: magicmiles on October 30, 2013, 04:45:11 PM
how do you add somebody to an ignore list on here.   my stalker needs to go.

Go to your forum profile, click on modify profile, there is a drop down list from which you can choose to add someone to an ignore list.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on October 30, 2013, 04:52:31 PM
Damn dude, you're really not willing to figure out ANYTHING for yourself are you?

jag, i think you are too hippie for me to understand.   i don't how you argue logically that adoption isn't a solution to the unwanted baby question.
I didn't. Not even remotely.

Maybe I really have been giving you too much credit - all this time I figured you were actually reasonably intelligent and just playing the fool for the sake of keeping the trolling going. Now I'm thinking you really are....well, maybe as much a fool as you've been acting and I'm in the wrong for giving you the benefit of the doubt.

What's the story with that degree you claim to have?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 04:54:33 PM
Damn dude, you're really not willing to figure out ANYTHING for yourself are you?

jag, i think you are too hippie for me to understand.   i don't how you argue logically that adoption isn't a solution to the unwanted baby question.
I didn't. Not even remotely.

Maybe I really have been giving you too much credit - all this time I figured you were actually reasonably intelligent and just playing the fool for the sake of keeping the trolling going. Now I'm thinking you really are....well, maybe as much a fool as you've been acting and I'm in the wrong for giving you the benefit of the doubt.

What's the story with that degree you claim to have?

He probably got it from FAUX NOISE University.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 04:56:49 PM
I don't like to talk about my personal life on the internet.   

your point made no sense.  maybe you were saying it is easy to be able to adopt, so i have no excuses?  although i think it is actually pretty hard to be cleared to be able to adopt.   this is also based on the premise that somehow I am a hypocrite if I don't take of other people's kids  as the result of me opposing abortion.   lol
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 05:00:26 PM
I don't like to talk about my personal life on the internet.   

your point made no sense.  maybe you were saying it is easy to be able to adopt, so i have no excuses?  although i think it is actually pretty hard to be cleared to be able to adopt.   this is also based on the premise that somehow I am a hypocrite if I don't take of other people's kids  as the result of me opposing abortion.   lol

Bullshit. Coming here and spewing your Creationism, abortion views, etc., is you talking about your "personal" life.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on October 30, 2013, 05:04:45 PM
I don't like to talk about my personal life on the internet.   

your point made no sense.  maybe you were saying it is easy to be able to adopt, so i have no excuses?  although i think it is actually pretty hard to be cleared to be able to adopt.   this is also based on the premise that somehow I am a hypocrite if I don't take of other people's kids  as the result of me opposing abortion.   lol

Ok, I get it. You are that thick. Never mind, you won't be able to grasp any of what I would tell you about this topic if you misunderstand what I've said so far this badly.

I'm sorry for making so much fun of you - I didn't realize that you are this challenged. Far be it from me to add to the burdens you must already be enduring under such constraints.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 05:05:37 PM
I don't like to talk about my personal life on the internet.   

your point made no sense.  maybe you were saying it is easy to be able to adopt, so i have no excuses?  although i think it is actually pretty hard to be cleared to be able to adopt.   this is also based on the premise that somehow I am a hypocrite if I don't take of other people's kids  as the result of me opposing abortion.   lol

Ok, I get it. You are that thick. Never mind, you won't be able to grasp any of what I would tell you about this topic if you misunderstand what I've said so far this badly.

I'm sorry for making so much fun of you - I didn't realize that you are this challenged. Far be it from me to add to the burdens you must already be enduring under such constraints.
]

ok, well why not just say it again in a different way.  i thought you were talking about setting up an adoption agency and how easy it was. 

maybe it was meant as sarcasm and you were saying it is hard to be cleared to adopt, thus there are not many people who can adopt?   who know, i am so confused.   
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on October 30, 2013, 05:07:22 PM
Damn dude, you're really not willing to figure out ANYTHING for yourself are you?

jag, i think you are too hippie for me to understand.   i don't how you argue logically that adoption isn't a solution to the unwanted baby question.

Suppose you want to double the number of babies adopted, and possibly reduce the abortion rate. First, you would have to give women an incentive to continue with an unwanted pregnancy-- like good prenatal care, an income if they can't work, help with other children, etc. That costs money-- most likely from taxes that you have already stated you don't want to pay.

Second, you need to start more adoption agencies and/or loosen up the regulations currently preventing many people from adopting. There are laws in some states against gays adopting; some people don't even want atheists to adopt. Traditionally, church groups only let their own members adopt the children in their charge. If you want there to be lots more adoptions, that all might have to change. 

Regulations in many countries are pretty strict on adopting babies, because of the potential for fraud and abuse. You would not a fly-by-night organization recruiting poor pregnant women in Ukraine or Mexico or Nigeria and tricking them or paying them to give up their babies-- or even kidnapping the babies outright, knowing the women have no legal recourse.

People could lie to women, saying they would still have legal custody and be able to visit the child, which may not be the case. Or telling the women that the child will be able to sponsor them for US citizenship, which is also not the case. You would not want babies brokered to child prostitution outfits. You would not want people adopting a bunch of kids and putting them all on welfare as a business model.

All these things do go on, even with the regulations and laws we have. If you loosen the regs or let more people enter the adoption "business", there will be even more of this stuff. So, you can propose a policy, but if you don't think about the real-life consequences, you are just....flapping your gums on the internet.  :D
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 05:10:00 PM
Damn dude, you're really not willing to figure out ANYTHING for yourself are you?

jag, i think you are too hippie for me to understand.   i don't how you argue logically that adoption isn't a solution to the unwanted baby question.

Suppose you want to double the number of babies adopted, and possibly reduce the abortion rate. First, you would have to give women an incentive to continue with an unwanted pregnancy-- like good prenatal care, an income if they can't work, help with other children, etc. That costs money-- most likely from taxes that you have already stated you don't want to pay.

Second, you need to start more adoption agencies and/or loosen up the regulations currently preventing many people from adopting. There are laws in some states against gays adopting; some people don't even want atheists to adopt. Traditionally, church groups only let their own members adopt the children in their charge. If you want there to be lots more adoptions, that all might have to change. 

Regulations in many countries are pretty strict on adopting babies, because of the potential for fraud and abuse. You would not a fly-by-night organization recruiting poor pregnant women in Ukraine or Mexico or Nigeria and tricking them or paying them to give up their babies-- or even kidnapping the babies outright, knowing the women have no legal recourse.

People could lie to women, saying they would still have legal custody and be able to visit the child, which may not be the case. Or telling the women that the child will be able to sponsor them for US citizenship, which is also not the case. You would not want babies brokered to child prostitution outfits. You would not want people adopting a bunch of kids and putting them all on welfare as a business model.

All these things do go on, even with the regulations and laws we have. If you loosen the regs or let more people enter the adoption "business", there will be even more of this stuff. So, you can propose a policy, but if you don't think about the real-life consequences, you are just....flapping your gums on the internet.  :D

He's for all those things. He's a Republican.

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 05:11:57 PM
I am kind of against letting gays adopt kids b/c kids are designed to have a mommy and a daddy and we don't now how having two daddies or two mommies affects them.   You have to live the kiddies in their natural habitats or they might have pyschological issues.

then the kids will have to explain to other kids at school why they have two daddies or moommies and they might get bullied. 

then you are looking at a potential Michael Jackson scenario and obviously nobody wants that.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 30, 2013, 05:12:51 PM
how do you add somebody to an ignore list on here.   my stalker needs to go.

You are just taking the easy way out so that you don't have to answer questions. You should just put everyone on your ignore list. It would not make much difference to your posts.

The problem I have with you is that I don't think you even care what you type. I think you are just having a laugh until you get a new job. I think you are just on an ego trip.

I would not be surprised if you got your creationist junk from joining a creationist website and telling them that evolution was true.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: magicmiles on October 30, 2013, 05:14:03 PM
Sounds like increased Federal funding to provide better health care and support services for pregnant women might help, also funding of better adoption processes.

I wonder how much money the USA would free up if it cut defence spending by, say, 20%? Of course, that might mean the average Americans chances of being killed by a terrorist increases by 20%. But I doubt it.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 05:14:51 PM
how do you add somebody to an ignore list on here.   my stalker needs to go.

You are just taking the easy way out so that you don't have to answer questions. You should just put everyone on your ignore list. It would not make much difference to your posts.

The problem I have with you is that I don't think you even care what you type. I think you are just having a laugh until you get a new job. I think you are just on an ego trip.

I would not be surprised if you got your creationist junk from joining a creationist website and telling them that evolution was true.

ID and creationism isn't the same thing.  lot of differences,  one talks about the bible, the other doesn't, for starters.

i don't lie about my beliefs.  i actually thought this website would have more ID people on it, because it said it is an addictive discussion,  not a group grope validation exercise.   

lol
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 05:16:21 PM
Sounds like increased Federal funding to provide better health care and support services for pregnant women might help, also funding of better adoption processes.

I wonder how much money the USA would free up if it cut defence spending by, say, 20%? Of course, that might mean the average Americans chances of being killed by a terrorist increases by 20%. But I doubt it.

we could save a lot of money by not giving it to Obama's cronies in the solar power industry whose companies go bankrupt shortly after.

or if we didn't implement O-Care.    surely nobody wants to repeal O-care though, b/c it is so awesome.   lol
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 30, 2013, 05:29:31 PM
how do you add somebody to an ignore list on here.   my stalker needs to go.

You are just taking the easy way out so that you don't have to answer questions. You should just put everyone on your ignore list. It would not make much difference to your posts.

The problem I have with you is that I don't think you even care what you type. I think you are just having a laugh until you get a new job. I think you are just on an ego trip.

I would not be surprised if you got your creationist junk from joining a creationist website and telling them that evolution was true.

ID and creationism isn't the same thing.  lot of differences,  one talks about the bible, the other doesn't, for starters.

i don't lie about my beliefs.  i actually thought this website would have more ID people on it, because it said it is an addictive discussion,  not a group grope validation exercise.   

lol

How can anyone be sure?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on October 30, 2013, 05:33:35 PM
Quote
I am kind of against letting gays adopt kids b/c kids are designed to have a mommy and a daddy and we don't now how having two daddies or two mommies affects them.   You have to live the kiddies in their natural habitats or they might have pyschological issues.

then the kids will have to explain to other kids at school why they have two daddies or moommies and they might get bullied.

then you are looking at a potential Michael Jackson scenario and obviously nobody wants that.

Are you really attempting to make an argument with adults by using the terms "mommies" and "daddies"?  LOL

Also, the "argument" is so nonsensical that it would be laughable, if it weren't so frightening and sad.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 05:35:28 PM
Sounds like increased Federal funding to provide better health care and support services for pregnant women might help, also funding of better adoption processes.

I wonder how much money the USA would free up if it cut defence spending by, say, 20%? Of course, that might mean the average Americans chances of being killed by a terrorist increases by 20%. But I doubt it.

Republicans would never cut defense spending. The military already gets $200 billion they really don't need but Republicans say they need it so they must.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 05:37:07 PM
Quote
I am kind of against letting gays adopt kids b/c kids are designed to have a mommy and a daddy and we don't now how having two daddies or two mommies affects them.   You have to live the kiddies in their natural habitats or they might have pyschological issues.

then the kids will have to explain to other kids at school why they have two daddies or moommies and they might get bullied.

then you are looking at a potential Michael Jackson scenario and obviously nobody wants that.

Are you really attempting to make an argument with adults by using the terms "mommies" and "daddies"?  LOL

Also, the "argument" is so nonsensical that it would be laughable, if it weren't so frightening and sad.

are you gay?   My argument is legit, kids shouldn't be guinea pigs in some kind of social experiment.    I just hope little Johnny gets a choice.   lol

we need to make sure this is the best thing for the children,  not for gays.   I'm not saying gays can't make great parents.   but obviously a kid needs a mother and a father because that is what Nature (Random Mutations)   or "God"  set up.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: William on October 30, 2013, 05:41:08 PM
You have to live the kiddies in their natural habitats or they might have pyschological issues.

Let there be orphans  :(

(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRwOeof5cII0c2bvne_OkOqZMQnbtQopQzE-EO-Rh9XgvaNcL8o)
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 05:42:41 PM
Quote
I am kind of against letting gays adopt kids b/c kids are designed to have a mommy and a daddy and we don't now how having two daddies or two mommies affects them.   You have to live the kiddies in their natural habitats or they might have pyschological issues.

then the kids will have to explain to other kids at school why they have two daddies or moommies and they might get bullied.

then you are looking at a potential Michael Jackson scenario and obviously nobody wants that.

Are you really attempting to make an argument with adults by using the terms "mommies" and "daddies"?  LOL

Also, the "argument" is so nonsensical that it would be laughable, if it weren't so frightening and sad.

are you gay?   My argument is legit, kids shouldn't be guinea pigs in some kind of social experiment.    I just hope little Johnny gets a choice.   lol

we need to make sure this is the best thing for the children,  not for gays.   I'm not saying gays can't make great parents.   but obviously a kid needs a mother and a father because that is what Nature (Random Mutations)   or "God"  set up.

Bookmarking to smite in an hour. I mean, he's probably of the mind if gays have their own children they should be taken away from them.

Idiot.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Astreja on October 30, 2013, 05:45:15 PM
My body is designed to give a woman who wants one a baby, and pleasure.   lol

May I suggest a career as a celibate monk, or an elective bilateral orchiectomy, to avoid disappointing the XX community with false advertising?

Quote
How can I be anti-woman if I want to save female babies from slaughter?

Because you are intruding on our right to control our bodies.  You are My enemy.

Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 05:46:09 PM
You have to live the kiddies in their natural habitats or they might have pyschological issues.

Let there be orphans  :(

(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRwOeof5cII0c2bvne_OkOqZMQnbtQopQzE-EO-Rh9XgvaNcL8o)

the problems orphans, andd kids with only one parent  help make my point.    out of the natural habitat of a father and mother.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Astreja on October 30, 2013, 05:48:43 PM
Bookmarking to smite in an hour. I mean, he's probably of the mind if gays have their own children they should be taken away from them.

That scenario could easily apply to Me and My daughter.  Fortunately she's in her late 20s and has no qualms about using sharp objects.  (IIRC, in grade 6 she stabbed a classroom bully in the back of the hand with a pencil.)
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 05:49:47 PM
My body is designed to give a woman who wants one a baby, and pleasure.   lol

May I suggest a career as a celibate monk, or an elective bilateral orchiectomy, to avoid disappointing the XX community with false advertising?

Quote
How can I be anti-woman if I want to save female babies from slaughter?

Because you are intruding on our right to control our bodies.  You are My enemy.

i have a feeling you don't have too worry too much about pregnancy.   lol

i'm your friend because I want to save you from lifelong guilt which occurs  in every woman who aborts.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 05:50:19 PM
Bookmarking to smite in an hour. I mean, he's probably of the mind if gays have their own children they should be taken away from them.

That scenario could easily apply to Me and My daughter.  Fortunately she's in her late 20s and has no qualms about using sharp objects.  (IIRC, in grade 6 she stabbed a classroom bully in the back of the hand with a pencil.)

Is she hot?

lol! j/k

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: William on October 30, 2013, 05:51:51 PM
the problems orphans, andd kids with only one parent  help make my point.    out of the natural habitat of a father and mother.
God willing.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 05:52:42 PM
the problems orphans, andd kids with only one parent  help make my point.    out of the natural habitat of a father and mother.
God willing.

no,  Random Mutations willing.

lol
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: William on October 30, 2013, 05:55:35 PM
no,  Random Mutations willing.

lol

lol??? lol???????????? you sick fucktard!
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 30, 2013, 05:57:35 PM
  You have to leave the kiddies in their natural habitats or they might have pyschological issues.

So you think that a child's natural habitat is with a father and mother. What would you say if I told you that a nuclear family of that type has not been normal is the history of mankind. It has been much more normal to have larger family units.

Some problems of modern life could actually be caused because family units are too small (just guessing this sentence based on studies of greater conformity in larger family groups). Someone might be able to find out more online.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 05:58:38 PM
no,  Random Mutations willing.

lol

lol??? lol???????????? you sick fucktard!

Welcome to the club, William. Please keep your hands, and legs in the vehicle at all times (that way when we run him over with our club car, blood will only get on the car).

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Dante on October 30, 2013, 06:06:20 PM
This fucktard isn't even entertaining any more. He's just douchebag trolling an atheist site, not wiiling to engage in discussion.

Why feed the troll?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 06:08:50 PM
This fucktard isn't even entertaining any more. He's just douchebag trolling an atheist site, not wiiling to engage in discussion.

Why feed the troll?

i've discussed more than you have.   your posts all amount to this.   

Didn't you send me a nice private message.    i haven't changed.

i knew that I shouldn't have talked about gay adoption when somebody brought it up.    this is the issue that you can't talk about in society because of political correctness.   
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 06:10:11 PM
This fucktard isn't even entertaining any more. He's just douchebag trolling an atheist site, not wiiling to engage in discussion.

Why feed the troll?

He put me on his ignore list. Want on? Tell him you're smarter than he is, and that ID/Creationism isn't science. That seems to be the reasons why he placed me there, though he calls it "stalking".

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 30, 2013, 06:11:21 PM
What would you say if I told you that a nuclear family of that type has not been normal is the history of mankind. It has been much more normal to have larger family units.

That's a fact though, FF.  DrTroll has an intense aversion to facts.  Reality's liberal bias offends him.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 06:13:09 PM
What would you say if I told you that a nuclear family of that type has not been normal is the history of mankind. It has been much more normal to have larger family units.

That's a fact though, FF.  DrTroll has an intense aversion to facts.  Reality's liberal bias offends him.

the pisspoor economy and sorry O-Care have a liberal bias, that is why they suck. 

Boom.

Dis is 2013, dis is the modern GOP, and dis is how we reach out now.  We all up in your face.  Boom.  lol
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on October 30, 2013, 06:15:59 PM
Dis is 2013, dis is the modern GOP, and dis is how we reach out now.  We all up in your face.  Boom.  lol

The quote in my signature needed some context.  Thank you for providing it.

EDIT:  Nevermind, character limit.  Oh well.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 06:20:30 PM
Dis is 2013, dis is the modern GOP, and dis is how we reach out now.  We all up in your face.  Boom.  lol

The quote in my signature needed some context.  Thank you for providing it.

EDIT:  Nevermind, character limit.  Oh well.

Tried making it one quote instead of two, adding in the dates (condensed)?

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 06:21:57 PM
Romney should have said Boom after all his points in that first debate with O'Prompter.  I never seen a debate beatdown like that. 

"Yo economy sucks, homey, why don't u go back to chicaaaaaaaaaaaago and get yo hate on with J. Wright while I clean up dis mess"  Romney's thought bubble during debate
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 30, 2013, 06:30:01 PM

the pisspoor economy and sorry O-Care have a liberal bias, that is why they suck. 

Boom.

Dis is 2013, dis is the modern GOP, and dis is how we reach out now.  We all up in your face.  Boom.  lol

Are you surprised that I don't take you seriously?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 06:31:31 PM

the pisspoor economy and sorry O-Care have a liberal bias, that is why they suck. 

Boom.

Dis is 2013, dis is the modern GOP, and dis is how we reach out now.  We all up in your face.  Boom.  lol

Are you surprised that I don't take you seriously?

if you voted for big O, especially last year,  you don't take much of anything seriously.   

Everything that is happening right now with the O-Care rollout was predicted by Rush Limbaugh and other conservatives.   All these dumb Democrat voters complaining about their premiums being jacked up or losing their plans at their companies.    lol   Affordable Care Act =  Republican's best issue

Big O can't even produce a website that works for people to sign up after 3 years to get it ready,  but somehow we want big O and Democrats running the healthcare industry.   lol
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 06:39:33 PM

the pisspoor economy and sorry O-Care have a liberal bias, that is why they suck. 

Boom.

Dis is 2013, dis is the modern GOP, and dis is how we reach out now.  We all up in your face.  Boom.  lol

Are you surprised that I don't take you seriously?

if you voted for big O, especially last year,  you don't take much of anything seriously.   

Everything that is happening right now with the O-Care rollout was predicted by Rush Limbaugh and other conservatives.   All these dumb Democrat voters complaining about their premiums being jacked up or losing their plans at their companies.    lol   Affordable Care Act =  Republican's best issue

Big O can't even produce a website that works for people to sign up after 3 years to get it ready,  but somehow we want big O and Democrats running the healthcare industry.   lol

All major programs have problems in the beginning, including ones by Republicans. Bush's prescription program had glitches on its website. Republicans asked Democrats to work with them on it, and they did. Democrats ask Republicans to help them and their response is "No.".

Cease with the rhetoric.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Dante on October 30, 2013, 07:02:19 PM
This fucktard isn't even entertaining any more. He's just douchebag trolling an atheist site, not wiiling to engage in discussion.

Why feed the troll?

i've discussed more than you have.   your posts all amount to this.   

Didn't you send me a nice private message.    i haven't changed.

i knew that I shouldn't have talked about gay adoption when somebody brought it up.    this is the issue that you can't talk about in society because of political correctness.

Nope, I didn't send you a PM, and if I did, it surely wouldn't have been "nice". Because youre an immature idiot, simply trolling to fill the time and the void between your ears. One would think that with all that empty space, you'd be eager to fill it with knowledge, and possibly help get your IQ somewhere above that of a dung beetle.

Oh, and BTW, quantity vs. quality is how contributions are measured. But you'd know that if you'd ever done anything with a woman besides flog the dolphin to pictures of that sea-hag Coulter.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 07:05:10 PM
This fucktard isn't even entertaining any more. He's just douchebag trolling an atheist site, not wiiling to engage in discussion.

Why feed the troll?

i've discussed more than you have.   your posts all amount to this.   

Didn't you send me a nice private message.    i haven't changed.

i knew that I shouldn't have talked about gay adoption when somebody brought it up.    this is the issue that you can't talk about in society because of political correctness.

Nope, I didn't send you a PM, and if I did, it surely wouldn't have been "nice". Because youre an immature idiot, simply trolling to fill the time and the void between your ears. One would think that with all that empty space, you'd be eager to fill it with knowledge, and possibly help get your IQ somewhere above that of a dung beetle.

Oh, and BTW, quantity vs. quality is how contributions are measured. But you'd know that if you'd ever done anything with a woman besides flog the dolphin to pictures of that sea-hag Coulter.

i'll take Coulter over Nancy Pelosi, Shrillary Clinton,  and Michelle O.   In your case, that Weiner guy.     lol

you did send me a PM, said I was a logical debater and dont let these people run me off the website.   
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: magicmiles on October 30, 2013, 07:09:46 PM
I thought PM stood for Private Message. Ah well.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on October 30, 2013, 08:10:53 PM
Sounds like increased Federal funding to provide better health care and support services for pregnant women might help, also funding of better adoption processes.

I wonder how much money the USA would free up if it cut defence spending by, say, 20%? Of course, that might mean the average Americans chances of being killed by a terrorist increases by 20%. But I doubt it.

we could save a lot of money by not giving it to Obama's cronies in the solar power industry whose companies go bankrupt shortly after.

or if we didn't implement O-Care.    surely nobody wants to repeal O-care though, b/c it is so awesome.   lol
This is relevant how, exactly?
This fucktard isn't even entertaining any more. He's just douchebag trolling an atheist site, not wiiling to engage in discussion.

Why feed the troll?

i've discussed more than you have.   your posts all amount to this.   

Didn't you send me a nice private message.    i haven't changed.

i knew that I shouldn't have talked about gay adoption when somebody brought it up.    this is the issue that you can't talk about in society because of political correctness.   
Or this?


the pisspoor economy and sorry O-Care have a liberal bias, that is why they suck. 

Boom.

Dis is 2013, dis is the modern GOP, and dis is how we reach out now.  We all up in your face.  Boom.  lol

Are you surprised that I don't take you seriously?

if you voted for big O, especially last year,  you don't take much of anything seriously.   

Everything that is happening right now with the O-Care rollout was predicted by Rush Limbaugh and other conservatives.   All these dumb Democrat voters complaining about their premiums being jacked up or losing their plans at their companies.    lol   Affordable Care Act =  Republican's best issue

Big O can't even produce a website that works for people to sign up after 3 years to get it ready,  but somehow we want big O and Democrats running the healthcare industry.   lol
Or this?

This fucktard isn't even entertaining any more. He's just douchebag trolling an atheist site, not wiiling to engage in discussion.

Why feed the troll?

i've discussed more than you have.   your posts all amount to this.   

Didn't you send me a nice private message.    i haven't changed.

i knew that I shouldn't have talked about gay adoption when somebody brought it up.    this is the issue that you can't talk about in society because of political correctness.

Nope, I didn't send you a PM, and if I did, it surely wouldn't have been "nice". Because youre an immature idiot, simply trolling to fill the time and the void between your ears. One would think that with all that empty space, you'd be eager to fill it with knowledge, and possibly help get your IQ somewhere above that of a dung beetle.

Oh, and BTW, quantity vs. quality is how contributions are measured. But you'd know that if you'd ever done anything with a woman besides flog the dolphin to pictures of that sea-hag Coulter.

i'll take Coulter over Nancy Pelosi, Shrillary Clinton,  and Michelle O.   In your case, that Weiner guy.     lol

you did send me a PM, said I was a logical debater and dont let these people run me off the website.   

Or this?

Are you getting that desperate for trolling material? Start a new topic if you're going to change the subject - is this your first time in a forum? Jesus-pleezus you're an idiot.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 08:28:49 PM
Some forums are more rigid than others.   I fully expect to be banned sooner or later.   This is a liberal website afterall.   That is what liberal websites do. 

lol
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on October 30, 2013, 08:40:05 PM
Some forums are more rigid than others.   I fully expect to be banned sooner or later.   This is a liberal website afterall.   That is what liberal websites do. 

lol

You could start a new thread to complain about that if you like. You haven't been banned yet (will you send your little friends to see what a great job you did here making a fool of yourself?) so post away. Just try to maintain the minimum level of not-too-stupid-to-understand-how-discussion-forums-work.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 08:45:39 PM
Some forums are more rigid than others.   I fully expect to be banned sooner or later.   This is a liberal website afterall.   That is what liberal websites do. 

lol

You could start a new thread to complain about that if you like. You haven't been banned yet (will you send your little friends to see what a great job you did here making a fool of yourself?) so post away. Just try to maintain the minimum level of not-too-stupid-to-understand-how-discussion-forums-work.

A lot of websites don't allow cursing and the f-bomb and other crude statements.  If they aren't banning people who do that, I don't see how they really be bothered by me.   

It is good to have one token conservative /  "creationist"   on here.  Diversity.  lol
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: shnozzola on October 30, 2013, 08:47:57 PM
DrTesla
You should check out rr-bb.com - the Rapture Ready conservative folks.  They have a long list of people that aren't welcome on their website.  Say one questionable thing, such as " are you sure of your facts?'  and you are quickly banned.  Conservative websites do that.  ;)

   My guess is you have found much better debate on this atheist website than you will on many creationist / religious type sites. 

As for your interest in El-Rushbo, you have many of his traits, like saying something totally ridiculous that you know isn't true, than sticking in an lol, as if your egotistical hatred and belittling of others is only a joke.

God help us if people like you get more power.  Oh wait, we'll have to help ourselves.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on October 30, 2013, 09:06:06 PM
A lot of websites don't allow cursing and the f-bomb and other crude statements. 
Irrelevant. You're on THIS website.
Quote
If they aren't banning people who do that, I don't see how they really be bothered by me.   
Did you read the forum rules, as has been suggested to you several times? Don't bitch about getting smacked down for breaking them if you can't be bothered to know what they are. That's just more childish whining. Take some responsibility for yourself while you spout off about your conservative values you idiot.
Quote
It is good to have one token conservative
Blatant ignorance on display yet again. What makes you think you're the only conservative here? 
Quote
/  "creationist"   on here. 
Again, what makes you think you're the only one? Frankly, you're kind of late to the party - you missed Wayne and Maggie altogether.
Quote
Diversity.  lol
You do realize that you find you far more impressive than anyone else does, right? You're not bringing any diversity to this place - I don't think you've proposed a single original thing since you got here. Why do you think it's been so easy to kick your arguments to pieces? Lots of previous experience doing it resides right here in these figurative walls - if you had bothered to look around first, you might have waited until you had some  better arguments before busting out the silliness you've been posting.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 09:08:57 PM
Some forums are more rigid than others.   I fully expect to be banned sooner or later.   This is a liberal website afterall.   That is what liberal websites do. 

lol

You keep saying this as if that's exactly what you want them to do. They won't do it but they might isolate you.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 09:24:27 PM
Who have I belittled on here?

You guys have hurled insult after insult at me.  Thankfull, I am a rock. 

I am the most affable person on here, by far. 

You guys want to stone me for simply loving babies and wanting to save them from slaughter because all you wanted to do was GET IT ON with some stranger you meet at McDonalds one night.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Zankuu on October 30, 2013, 09:29:16 PM
Ignore the troll. Let this thread die.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 30, 2013, 09:30:47 PM
Who have I belittled on here?

You guys have hurled insult after insult at me.  Thankfull, I am a rock. 

I am the most affable person on here, by far. 

You guys want to stone me for simply loving babies and wanting to save them from slaughter because all you wanted to do was GET IT ON with some stranger you meet at McDonalds one night.

It is a good thing that you are polite, but do you see that if you ignore information that people give you, people will think it is an insult. Even if you don't mean it to be. People will like you if you read information they give you.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 09:33:31 PM
Who have I belittled on here?

You guys have hurled insult after insult at me.  Thankfull, I am a rock. 

I am the most affable person on here, by far. 

You guys want to stone me for simply loving babies and wanting to save them from slaughter because all you wanted to do was GET IT ON with some stranger you meet at McDonalds one night.

It is a good thing that you are polite, but do you see that if you ignore information that people give you, people will think it is an insult. Even if you don't mean it to be. People will like you if you read information they give you.

The Zandku person also sent me a positive PM.

I haven't changed.  What's up?

You presume that other people know more than me and that somehow I am to accept whatever they tell me.    This is a false premise. 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 30, 2013, 09:36:10 PM
Who have I belittled on here?

You guys have hurled insult after insult at me.  Thankfull, I am a rock. 

I am the most affable person on here, by far. 

You guys want to stone me for simply loving babies and wanting to save them from slaughter because all you wanted to do was GET IT ON with some stranger you meet at McDonalds one night.

It is a good thing that you are polite, but do you see that if you ignore information that people give you, people will think it is an insult. Even if you don't mean it to be. People will like you if you read information they give you.

The Zandku person also sent me a positive PM.

I haven't changed.  What's up?

You presume that other people know more than me and that somehow I am to accept whatever they tell me.    This is a false premise.

I am not assuming that people know more than you. It is a sharing of information. You give some and you read some.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 09:37:29 PM
Who have I belittled on here?

You guys have hurled insult after insult at me.  Thankfull, I am a rock. 

I am the most affable person on here, by far. 

You guys want to stone me for simply loving babies and wanting to save them from slaughter because all you wanted to do was GET IT ON with some stranger you meet at McDonalds one night.

It is a good thing that you are polite, but do you see that if you ignore information that people give you, people will think it is an insult. Even if you don't mean it to be. People will like you if you read information they give you.

The Zandku person also sent me a positive PM.

I haven't changed.  What's up?

You presume that other people know more than me and that somehow I am to accept whatever they tell me.    This is a false premise.

I am not assuming that people know more than you. It is a sharing of information. You give some and you read some.

Foxy, my opinion is most people on here are liberal arts majors, majoring in religion or art history, etc and they have to take one or two biology classes, which essentially just focus on Darwin evolutionary type of stuff. 

Some people actually like Science,  others just want others to think they do.   
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 30, 2013, 09:41:29 PM
Yes, it is true that biology classes are based around evolution.

I am not sure what everyone's qualifications are on this site. I think some know a lot about science.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 30, 2013, 09:42:37 PM
Yes, it is true that biology classes are based around evolution.

I am not sure what everyone's qualifications are on this site. I think some know a lot about science.

a lot of them are cutting and pasting from wikipedia.

I know because I cut and paste stuff they type into the Google machine that I don't think they understand,  and it always pulls up Wikepedia.   Perfect match.

lol   Jaime is the worse of them.

Most of biology is not based on evolution.   They get into natural selection / variation within a species in microbiology. 

Most of biology is anatomy and pyshiology (spell check).    Evolution stuff really shouldn't be more than like half a lecture if you are in a serious biology class and it isn't dedicated to evolution exclusively.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 30, 2013, 09:50:14 PM
I think Wikipedia is just useful way to find information and there are usually links to fuller information.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 09:52:50 PM
Ignore the troll. Let this thread die.

He's ignoring me. I guess my unebejucated self was too much for him.

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 09:54:27 PM
Who have I belittled on here?

You guys have hurled insult after insult at me.  Thankfull, I am a rock. 

I am the most affable person on here, by far. 

You guys want to stone me for simply loving babies and wanting to save them from slaughter because all you wanted to do was GET IT ON with some stranger you meet at McDonalds one night.

It is a good thing that you are polite, but do you see that if you ignore information that people give you, people will think it is an insult. Even if you don't mean it to be. People will like you if you read information they give you.

The Zandku person also sent me a positive PM.

I haven't changed.  What's up?

You presume that other people know more than me and that somehow I am to accept whatever they tell me.    This is a false premise. 

He admits it people: I'm right, and y'all are all wrong.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 30, 2013, 09:55:55 PM
Yes, it is true that biology classes are based around evolution.

I am not sure what everyone's qualifications are on this site. I think some know a lot about science.

a lot of them are cutting and pasting from wikipedia.

I know because I cut and paste stuff they type into the Google machine that I don't think they understand,  and it always pulls up Wikepedia.   Perfect match.

lol   Jaime is the worse of them.

Most of biology is not based on evolution.   They get into natural selection / variation within a species in microbiology. 

Most of biology is anatomy and pyshiology (spell check).    Evolution stuff really shouldn't be more than like half a lecture if you are in a serious biology class and it isn't dedicated to evolution exclusively.

This from the guy who copy/pasted from a Creationist website. Hypocrite much?

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Astreja on October 30, 2013, 11:01:58 PM
That scenario could easily apply to Me and My daughter.  Fortunately she's in her late 20s and has no qualms about using sharp objects.  (IIRC, in grade 6 she stabbed a classroom bully in the back of the hand with a pencil.)

Is she hot?  lol! j/k

Actually, she looks like I did when I was in My early 20s, so I'd have to say "yes."

However, I feel it's My duty to warn you that she's upgraded to digital pencils and can now conjure up a veritable horde of angry Sidhe, rampaging tieflings, and magical explosions galore.   ;D
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Astreja on October 30, 2013, 11:07:44 PM
i have a feeling you don't have too worry too much about pregnancy.   lol

Not since I went through menopause, no... But I have a daughter and a niece of childbearing age, and numerous friends and co-workers who could be adversely affected by a ban on abortion.

Quote
i'm your friend because I want to save you from lifelong guilt which occurs  in every woman who aborts.

So now you can read the minds of every single woman who has ever had an abortion?  I rather doubt that.

And you're not My friend unless *I* say so.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: William on October 31, 2013, 04:57:23 AM
I fully expect to be banned sooner or later.

Don't be so sure.  We might just keep you as the nutter on the bus.  To showcase why we've chosen reason over faith.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 31, 2013, 05:13:21 AM
How about we get on the rails about abortion again?
No?

According to the bible, with the entire "if you die you go to heaven if you repent" abortion would technically disallow repent, as i can imagine that you would need to be capable of doing so.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: screwtape on October 31, 2013, 08:53:05 AM
You guys have hurled insult after insult at me.  Thankfull, I am a rock. 

I am the most affable person on here, by far. 

you're a rock alright.

If you voted for Obama,  you voted for a stupid person.  I mean, the man spent the last 4 years talking about how a family of 4 would see their healthcare premium go down 2500 dollars.   He also said if you like your company plan you could keep it.

Both are egregious lies or  he is an idiot.  I think it is combination of both. 

You are not stupid if you think Darwin's theory is dumb as hell.  Random mutations cannot lead to the complexity found in lifeforms.    It is basic logic.

The good thing about engineering majors is the professors can't politicize them like the liberal arts majors and some of the science majors like biology.   You guys were probably forced to build monuments to Darwin as your school project.  then you got the global warming propaganda and the other liberal / Democrat propaganda.   Probably watched Brokeback Mountain in every class including your remedidal math classes.   lol

Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jdawg70 on October 31, 2013, 09:00:01 AM
Don't be so sure.  We might just keep you as the nutter on the bus.  To showcase why we've chosen reason over faith.
So he's the Fred Phelps of WWGHA?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jaimehlers on October 31, 2013, 09:18:51 AM
Foxy, my opinion is most people on here are liberal arts majors, majoring in religion or art history, etc and they have to take one or two biology classes, which essentially just focus on Darwin evolutionary type of stuff. 

Some people actually like Science,  others just want others to think they do.
Computer science major here, but I started at a state university on a physics track and switched cause the school wanted to push me towards engineering physics, which I wasn't interested in.  But yes, I did take classes in biology and other sciences.  I've always found science interesting, and thus I try to keep up with it.

Who have I belittled on here?

You guys have hurled insult after insult at me.  Thankfull, I am a rock. 

I am the most affable person on here, by far.
As we can see below.

a lot of them are cutting and pasting from wikipedia.
When you make baseless accusations about cutting and pasting because you claim that putting them in Google results in a "perfect match", it undercuts your claims of innocence here.  Not to mention making you look like a fool to people who actually do know how search engines work.

Google's search engine works by using 'spiders' to crawl the web and index the content on various websites, and then comparing the search term(s) to it to provide quick matches.  Naturally, the more search terms you use, the more stuff Google has to work with, but it also constrains the search more.  Google tends to put results that contain more of the search terms first, so naturally you will end up with things that seem like 'perfect' matches, but on closer inspection, actually aren't.  I'll bet you didn't even look to make sure you did have a perfect match, assuming you did this at all.

You seem to think that you've found something that will fluster and upset people and thus give you an advantage against them, but the way you presented it gives the lie to it.  You see, you didn't confront me or anyone else about this so-called copy-pasting.  Instead, you posted it in a totally unrelated topic and kept it anonymous.  What that means is that you're trying to spread rumors, rather than making accusations against the people who supposedly copy-pasted.  You singled me out for some reason (my guess is to get back at me), but the fact that you didn't name a single name other than mine means that you're trying to spread doubt and uncertainty among other people on the forum.  Maybe to make them less confident about opposing you.

Sneaky, but not unexpected.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 31, 2013, 09:43:32 AM
i have a feeling you don't have too worry too much about pregnancy.   lol

Not since I went through menopause, no... But I have a daughter and a niece of childbearing age, and numerous friends and co-workers who could be adversely affected by a ban on abortion.

Quote
i'm your friend because I want to save you from lifelong guilt which occurs  in every woman who aborts.

So now you can read the minds of every single woman who has ever had an abortion?  I rather doubt that.

And you're not My friend unless *I* say so.

I'm merely an observer of human nature.    All women feel guilt after they have an abortion, because it goes against their nature, as they were hardwired to protect their offspring, to die for them, if necessary.   

Many women lack the mental toughness required to give birth to a child.   That is why I said is too bad men were not the ones who became pregnant because we are not divas and also we obviously much physically stronger than women   
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 31, 2013, 09:45:04 AM
@jaime

i did refer to my comments about you on the evolution thread, but many of my posts were deleted by screw.   

and I don't lie. 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Dante on October 31, 2013, 09:47:26 AM

and I don't lie.

You'd lie even if the truth sounded better.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 31, 2013, 09:53:53 AM
DT

Do you really want the pressure of being on this site everyday?

Anyone gets hammered for the smallest slip.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jaimehlers on October 31, 2013, 10:13:02 AM
i did refer to my comments about you on the evolution thread, but many of my posts were deleted by screw.
Yes, you did refer me to it, but the point is that you made it in a completely unrelated topic and you made a blanket insinuation that a lot of people here were doing it.  Not to mention that you did it in a taunting manner, clearly attempting to provoke me rather than confront me.

Quote from: DrTesla
and I don't lie.
Right.  Like those daughters you do, or is it don't, have?  Or that wife you do, or is it don't, have?  And those are just the things I can easily remember.

Trust is a currency, and it's one you've squandered.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on October 31, 2013, 11:18:00 AM
The long-promised post on abortion facts is up (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25718.msg579601.html#new).

I'll be working on another about the flaws in the "adoption instead" option soon.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 31, 2013, 11:24:18 AM
DT,

Someone  keeps messaging me that s/he wants to call you a "cunt" but can't bring themself to do it. Since I'm on your ignore, and you won't see this, thought you'd like to know what people, in general, think of you.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Mrjason on October 31, 2013, 11:41:25 AM
DT,

Someone  keeps messaging me that s/he wants to call you a "cunt" but can't bring themself to do it. Since I'm on your ignore, and you won't see this, thought you'd like to know what people, in general, think of you.

-Nam

Quote for ignore list avoidance
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on October 31, 2013, 03:42:29 PM
i have a feeling you don't have too worry too much about pregnancy.   lol

Not since I went through menopause, no... But I have a daughter and a niece of childbearing age, and numerous friends and co-workers who could be adversely affected by a ban on abortion.

Quote
i'm your friend because I want to save you from lifelong guilt which occurs  in every woman who aborts.

So now you can read the minds of every single woman who has ever had an abortion?  I rather doubt that.

And you're not My friend unless *I* say so.

I'm merely an observer of human nature.    All women feel guilt after they have an abortion, because it goes against their nature, as they were hardwired to protect their offspring, to die for them, if necessary.   

Many women lack the mental toughness required to give birth to a child.   That is why I said is too bad men were not the ones who became pregnant because we are not divas and also we obviously much physically stronger than women   

You have not spoken to "all women", have you? So you are only guessing what it is "all women" feel after having an abortion. I doubt you have spoken to any of the women you know about their abortions. And you most definitely do know some women who have had abortions. You just may not know who they are. Chances are you have older female relatives who had illegal abortions. You might even be related to women who died from the complications. 

I have spoken to a number of women about their abortions, and the overwhelming feeling they all report is of relief. They talk about the incredible stress of trying to decide what to do, the pressure from family and society to have the child, or to not to have the child. They felt like they were going mad from the stress. Once they made the decision to have the abortion, the stress was off.

Some women also report feelings of regret. They wished they had not gotten pregnant so young, so old, or with the wrong man, or when they already had three kids, or when they were unemployed or still in college, or whatever. They regret not being better about the birth control. They regret having sex when drunk or high, or with a man they were afraid of. But clearly, it is better to regret an abortion than to regret having a child.

In Japan, abortion is routinely done as a back up to birth control.[1] A friend working there as a corporate attorney got pregnant, and the doctor she went to asked when she wanted to arrange the abortion.

Not whether or not she wanted an abortion. When to arrange it.  There was not even a question that a young unmarried professional woman would have a baby. Raise it alone or give it away? You just don't do that in Japan.  (She ended up having the baby, and raising her as a single mother.) And Japanese women are not cold, heartless or uncaring--they also feel sadness and regret. There are Buddhist shrines where women go to leave letters to their aborted children, explaining why it was not the right time for them to be born. Some women feel they must make amends to the spirit of the unborn child they never had, in order to have a healthy baby later.
http://qjphotos.wordpress.com/2008/10/05/mizuko-shrine/

Women don't think abortion is good or fun. Many say the operation itself was awful--it hurts, the noise is creepy; one professor friend said it was horrible and disgusting. For some women, an abortion is almost as painful as childbirth. But nobody I have ever talked to-- in any country-- said they felt guilty, as if they had committed a crime. Are these women not human, if it is human nature to feel guilty about abortion?

And isn't it too bad that the perfect god made weak, silly women the ones to endure pregnancy and childbirth. Especially when women all over the world do heavy field work, haul wood and water, walk long distances carrying heavy loads without complaining and with babies on their backs. But as weak as they are, they still manage to give birth to as many as 10 children, often without any pain medication or even medical assistance. &)

Clearly big strong tough men could do it better. Although men have less physical endurance, less lower body strength and lower pain tolerance than women they should have been the ones to have the babies.[2]After all, being able to bench press a lot of weight is all it takes to go through pregnancy, labor, childbirth, breastfeeding and childrearing. Wonder why god made such a big mistake? And all through the animal kingdom as well....  :?

Women are Neanderthals who like killing babies, 'cause it's fun! Women are also too mentally and physically weak to have babies. But they should be forced to have children, because they are whiny divas who should just man up and endure every pregnancy, no matter what. And then hand them over to the nearest storefront adoption agency and walk away.

From the way you come across here, you don't really respect women very much, or relate to their life experiences at all. And you obviously don't really care about babies or children.  :P
 1. Japan, BTW, has high education levels, health care for everyone, almost no violent crime, and is almost completely atheist.
 2. They could still take over the child care after the baby is born, since they are so mentally and physically strong and all. Wonder why they don't do that.....
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: magicmiles on October 31, 2013, 03:56:56 PM
DT

Do you really want the pressure of being on this site everyday?

Anyone gets hammered for the smallest slip.

I hardly think you could call it pressure. After all:

(http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy133/stefanedberg/bull_zpsd7e1f119.png)
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on October 31, 2013, 04:03:33 PM
^^^Interestingly enough, we have had religious folk on this site become atheists after arguing with us. Truth OT and several others. But to my knowledge, not a single atheist here has become religious. If they had, I can't imagine them slinking away in shame or anything. They would surely keep posting here to convert the rest of us. But it has not happened yet. :angel:
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: magicmiles on October 31, 2013, 04:06:22 PM
I really just wanted an excuse to post the picture of a bull in a bra.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on October 31, 2013, 04:16:02 PM
I really just wanted an excuse to post the picture of a bull in a bra.

My computer won't let me post any pictures so I am limited to links. Considering my sense of humor, it's probably just as well.

MM, welcome back, BTW. I have a Thor costume just waiting for your visit to the US, you hot Ozzie you. :-*
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: magicmiles on October 31, 2013, 04:24:20 PM
I have a Thor costume just waiting for your visit to the US, you hot Ozzie you. :-*

I've heard it takes about 2 hours just to clear customs in LA. Following a 13 hour flight crammed into an economy seat. (I'm a touch over 6 feet). I don't think I want to visit quite that much. Maybe if a rich relative dies and leaves me lots of cash I can fly business.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Astreja on October 31, 2013, 05:22:10 PM
I'm merely an observer of human nature.

Not a very astute observer, alas.

Quote
All Some women feel guilt after they have an abortion, because it goes against their nature social conditioning, as they were hardwired raised to protect their offspring, to die for them, if necessary.

FTFY.  (And how the Niflheim is a child supposed to survive if the mother dies?)

Quote
Many women lack the mental toughness required to give birth to a child.   That is why I said is too bad men were not the ones who became pregnant because we are not divas and also we obviously much physically stronger than women.

Physical strength has virtually nothing to do with childbirth, Dr. T.  The female body has a few key advantages that males lack -- Slightly more flexible joints, and a very wide pelvic girdle.  If the average man tried to pass even a small full-term baby through his pelvis, he'd probably either bleed to death or crush the baby's skull against the various bony structures below as he tried to eject Junior from his body using brute force.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on October 31, 2013, 05:29:41 PM
^^^^Nice visual there, Norsegirl. :P
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: shnozzola on October 31, 2013, 05:43:57 PM
Who have I belittled on here?

My bold.

Quote
i don't care about that loser one way or another.       I can see him being the loser in high school who bullied the smart kids for being smart.
Quote
All these dumb Democrat voters complaining about their premiums being jacked up or losing their plans at their companies.
Quote
because all you wanted to do was GET IT ON with some stranger you meet at McDonalds one night.
Quote
most people on here are liberal arts majors, majoring in religion or art history, etc and they have to take one or two biology classes 
Quote
Many women lack the mental toughness required to give birth to a child.

Quote
Many of you live immoral lives, and have had several abortions, and you fear a God will have his revenge.   
Quote
Maybe you are stupid and too stupid to know it.
Quote
You kind of remind of that bimbo Miss South Carolina contestant a few years ago
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on October 31, 2013, 05:49:08 PM
Who has Dr. T not belittled? He actually called me a racist! :? &) ;D
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 31, 2013, 05:54:55 PM
Who has Dr. T not belittled? He actually called me a racist! :? &) ;D

He meant "praisist".

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on October 31, 2013, 05:58:13 PM
Maybe he meant to call me a "raisin" because I am black, sweet and of a certain age? No, because that might actually be funny. :P
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on October 31, 2013, 06:03:45 PM
Maybe he meant to call me a "raisin" because I am black, sweet and of a certain age? No, because that might actually be funny. :P

I think you mean "prune". :P

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 31, 2013, 10:39:22 PM
Who has Dr. T not belittled? He actually called me a racist! :? &) ;D

That is because you called black people "dumb hicks". 

As an African American,  I was offended deeply.  It was almost worse than watching black people get hosed down in Alabama on tv in the 1960s.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 31, 2013, 10:49:35 PM

I have spoken to a number of women about their abortions, and the overwhelming feeling they all report is of relief. GUILT.  They talk about the incredible stress of trying to decide what to do, the pressure from family and society to have the child, or to not to have the child. They felt like they were going mad from the stress. Once they made the decision to have the abortion, the stress was off. And the Guilt was just starting LOL

Some women also report feelings of regret guilt. so young, so old, or with the wrong man, or when they already had three kids, or when they weThey wished they had not gotten pregnant aborted their baby rThey regret not being better about the birth control. They regret having sex when drunk or high, or with a man they were afraid of. But clearly, it is better to regret an abortion than to regret having a child.

Women don't think abortion is good orand fun. Many say the operation itself was

And isn't it too bad that the perfect god made weak, silly women the ones to endure pregnancy and childbirth. Especially when women all over the world do heavy field work, haul wood and water, walk long distances carrying heavy loads without complaining and with babies on their backs. LLOL cough bullchit cough LOL But as weak as they are, they still manage to give birth to as many as 10 children, often without any pain medication or even medical assistance. &)

Clearly big strong tough men could do it better. Although men have less physical endurance, less lower body strength and lower pain tolerance than women they should have been the ones to have the babies.[1]After all, being able to bench press a lot of weight is all it takes to go through pregnancy, labor, childbirth, breastfeeding and childrearing. Wonder why god made such a big mistake? And all through the animal kingdom as well....  :?

Women are Neanderthals who like killing babies, 'cause it's fun! Women are also too mentally and physically weak to have babies. But they should be forced to have children, because they are whiny divas who should just man up and endure every pregnancy, no matter what. And then hand them over to the nearest storefront adoption agency and walk away.

From the way you come across here, you don't really respect women very much, or relate to their life experiences at all. And you obviously don't really care about babies or children.  :P
 1. They could still take over the child care after the baby is born, since they are so mentally and physically strong and all. Wonder why they don't do that.....
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on October 31, 2013, 11:02:15 PM
God Hater,

So I am supposed to care about the woman's stress over the baby?  In other words,  the woman getting "relief" from her stress is what is important here,  not the life of a precious child.

We may be challenging the laws of common decency.  Clearly nobody elevates women more than I do and puts them up on a pedastal they don't really deserve.   But at the same time I think these innocents are being held hostage by their so called "mothers".

I have a question.  Are liberal women still waiting on other people to pay for their birth control.  I assumed Sandra Fluke struck out when she went to testify in front of Congress on this "important" issue.   lol   

Have most women who get pregnant with a parasite (as they put it) even know about birth control?   

Do they not know they can say no to the random stranger at the McDonalds who wants to GET IT ON?   

Women feel guilt about abortions.   Numerous studies have shown this and it is common sense if you understand human nature and the female pysche in terms of being a nurturer while the man is off making the money to support her luxurious lifestyle. 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Astreja on October 31, 2013, 11:47:34 PM
Do they not know they can say no to the random stranger at the McDonalds who wants to GET IT ON?

Probably.  Considerably harder to say no to a spouse who refuses to respect that "no," won't give her money for birth control pills and won't wear a condom because he prefers to use his dipstick au naturel

Quote
Women feel guilt about abortions.   Numerous studies have shown this and it is common sense if you understand human nature and the female psyche in terms of being a nurturer while the man is off making the money to support her luxurious lifestyle.

Well,  you apparently do not understand the female psyche.  Oh, and *I* was the breadwinner in My ill-starred 17-year marriage to Whatisname.  My "luxurious lifestyle" involved financing his hobby business (only one barely profitable year, and about $20K in loans, which I paid off to preserve My own credit rating).  At one point I had only $20.00 to feed the family for a week... And I did it.  At another point I couldn't afford laundry soap for My work clothes and was wearing pantyhose with runs in them so that I could buy groceries.  If I  had had a second child, social assistance or bankruptcy would have been distinct possibilities.

After I broomed him to the curb 13 years ago, I was able to finance My own luxurious lifestyle, thank you very much.  (holds up sheaf of season tickets from local symphony and smirks)
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Anfauglir on November 01, 2013, 03:19:36 AM
In other words,  the woman getting "relief" from her stress is what is important here,  not the life of a precious child.

Quick question DT - how many children have you adopted?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on November 01, 2013, 03:43:13 AM
You notice his words "precious", "innocent", etc., these are filler words; they mean nothing, to him.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on November 01, 2013, 08:50:58 AM
Quote
Do they not know they can say no to the random stranger at the McDonalds who wants to GET IT ON? 

I'm left wondering when McDonald's became such a great hookup spot.  I though most one-nighters started in bars.

Then again Dr. Troll has displayed a staggering inability to exercise any sort of intellectual effort in this thread and others that I'm not surprised he'd see the local burger joint as the best place to pick up women.

Is that where you met the wife you can't seem to remember if you have or not?

Quote
Clearly nobody elevates women more than I do and puts them up on a pedastal they don't really deserve.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

Thanks, I needed that.

Carry on.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on November 01, 2013, 10:15:12 AM
Numerous studies have shown this and it is common sense if you understand human nature and the female pysche in terms of being a nurturer while the man is off making the money to support her luxurious lifestyle.

You are sick, you know that?

Not only are females able to take care of themselves, i know for fact that many a women has to take care of their husband too.

Heck, females are genetically superior to males in almost every way too.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: screwtape on November 01, 2013, 11:35:37 AM
Quote for ignore list avoidance

Please don't do that. If someone does not want to read another member's post, that is their prerogative, however misguided you may find it.  Also, let's not perpetuate the name calling. 

Thanks.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: screwtape on November 01, 2013, 11:44:43 AM
So I am supposed to care about the woman's stress over the baby?

Why would you not?  Are you some kind of unempathetic sociopath?

not the life of a precious child.

Granting it even is a child (it's not), what makes its life any more precious than the mothers?  I've asked you already, why do you think the fertilized egg has more right to a woman's uterus than the woman?

Clearly nobody elevates women more than I do and puts them up on a pedastal they don't really deserve.

Clearly you do not, based on your previous post, wherein you call women whiney and weak.  Or the rest of this post.

You really suck.


 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on November 01, 2013, 12:15:26 PM
God Hater,

So I am supposed to care about the woman's stress over the baby?  In other words,  the woman getting "relief" from her stress is what is important here,  not the life of a precious child.

We may be challenging the laws of common decency.  Clearly nobody elevates women more than I do and puts them up on a pedastal they don't really deserve.   But at the same time I think these innocents are being held hostage by their so called "mothers".

I have a question.  Are liberal women still waiting on other people to pay for their birth control.  I assumed Sandra Fluke struck out when she went to testify in front of Congress on this "important" issue.   lol   

Have most women who get pregnant with a parasite (as they put it) even know about birth control?   

Do they not know they can say no to the random stranger at the McDonalds who wants to GET IT ON?   

Women feel guilt about abortions.   Numerous studies have shown this and it is common sense if you understand human nature and the female pysche in terms of being a nurturer while the man is off making the money to support her luxurious lifestyle.

Childish Troll,

No one expects you to "care" about anything. Your complete lack of regard for actual people is apparent in every post you've made. Do you really think you are doing any good at all for the Silent Majority you claim to be speaking on behalf of? It's the kind of petty nonsense you've filled this forum with that just keeps bringing people to the side of rational thought - no one wants to be associated with such blatant disregard for actual people.

Thank you for doing your part, no matter how accidental and unintended, to bring more people to reality with your hate-filled, childish rhetoric.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jaimehlers on November 01, 2013, 12:24:37 PM
That is because you called black people "dumb hicks". 

As an African American,  I was offended deeply.  It was almost worse than watching black people get hosed down in Alabama on tv in the 1960s.
Offended by a black person referring to her relatives (also black people) as dumb hicks?  That's not racism anymore than me (a white person) calling my brother (another white person) an idiot is.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on November 01, 2013, 12:30:45 PM
Who has Dr. T not belittled? He actually called me a racist! :? &) ;D

That is because you called black people "dumb hicks". 

As an African American,  I was offended deeply.  It was almost worse than watching black people get hosed down in Alabama on tv in the 1960s.

I think this is appropriate*, under the circumstances: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0IVuGK7sAw

But I'll take any opportunity to promote Tim Minchin so my motives may be suspect.

*but definitely NSFW - he rarely is, but he's consistently hilarious
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jaimehlers on November 01, 2013, 12:42:26 PM
So I am supposed to care about the woman's stress over the baby?  In other words,  the woman getting "relief" from her stress is what is important here,  not the life of a precious child.
It's not your business in the first place.  Especially when your concern about the child fetus stops the moment it's born.

Quote from: DrTesla
We may be challenging the laws of common decency.  Clearly nobody elevates women more than I do and puts them up on a pedastal they don't really deserve.   But at the same time I think these innocents are being held hostage by their so called "mothers".
Oh, please.  If you actually cared at all, you'd let your so-called concern extend to single mothers who don't choose to have abortions and who do choose to keep their child.  Yet somehow I doubt that you're interested in actually helping to provide any support to those women, or even to the adoption agencies you so loudly laud.

Quote from: DrTesla
I have a question.  Are liberal women still waiting on other people to pay for their birth control.  I assumed Sandra Fluke struck out when she went to testify in front of Congress on this "important" issue.   lol
Well, if you don't want those women to have abortions, seems to me that making birth control easily available would solve the problem neatly.

Quote from: DrTesla
Have most women who get pregnant with a parasite (as they put it) even know about birth control?
Probably a lot more than you do, judging from your lack of knowledge on other subjects you decided to expound on.

Quote from: DrTesla
Do they not know they can say no to the random stranger at the McDonalds who wants to GET IT ON?
And I'll bet that virtually all of them do.

Quote from: DrTesla
Women feel guilt about abortions.   Numerous studies have shown this and it is common sense if you understand human nature and the female pysche in terms of being a nurturer while the man is off making the money to support her luxurious lifestyle.
Somehow, I doubt you understand any of this at all.  These are buzzwords that you can toss out to try to get a reaction, not things you've seriously thought about.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on November 01, 2013, 01:45:59 PM
I love how DT assumes that conservative women don't get abortions.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on November 01, 2013, 05:17:53 PM
I love how DT assumes that conservative women don't get abortions.

-Nam

An awful lot of women who get pregnant, even when the pregnancy is unplanned and unwanted, have the child. They manage, they deal, they cope. Or not.  Then the welfare state, social services, police, foster care and emergency rooms have to take over. Of the many women who I have talked to about this kind of thing, the ones who had children even though they did not particularly want them far outweigh the numbers of women who had abortions.

If, instead of making up crap out of his own head, took the time to read through the actual data collected on women who have abortions-- conveniently provided by Jag on a different thread--  Dr. T would see that most US women who have abortions are religious. Many used birth control, many are married and hardly any fit the stereotype of the drunken slut picking up strange men at the local burger joint.[1]

Warning: possibly graphic stuff coming up.

Of the 6 women whose circumstances I know best, only one got pregnant from a random one-night encounter-- with a guy she met at the laundromat whose name she barely knew. She was a pretty messed up babe overall, and definitely did not need to be trying to handle pregnancy on top of her other problems. Think Amy Winehouse, but with no money or singing ability. She had at least two abortions that I knew of.

The other woman who had several abortions-- a Jewish girl from a conservative wealthy family--was also very messed up. She was strung out on drugs and not taking care of herself due to various psychological problems, sexual abuse, etc. She later got her act together, got into therapy, went back to school, eventually got a doctorate, married a smart, caring black man and they now have two cute biracial kids.

Of the rest, one lady was a married housewife with two kids in high school. And they were Christians, very active in their church in a small midwestern town. She had serious reproductive problems (including random non-stop bleeding) that made it hard for her to use many forms of contraception.   When she got pregnant a third time at 40, she had the abortion and a hysterectomy. Talk about relief.

Another was a Catholic woman who got pregnant by her fiancee before the wedding. She would have been disowned by her very well-placed conservative east coast family, so she had an illegal abortion. It was the 1950's and very important to maintain the illusion of a nice Catholic girl who never had sex before the wedding night. After the wedding, she and her husband went on to have three kids.

Two other women were teachers-- one living apart from her husband, not wanting any children, and trying to hold onto her job and the other just not wanting more than one child. Both of them told me specifically how relieved they were to not be pregnant anymore.

If women were absolutely destroyed by the guilt from having abortions-- and I am thinking mainly of the women whose stories I know best-- they would not have been able to become the productive and happy people they are today. It does not seem like they are crippled by all-consuming guilt. These women did not even express much in the way of regret. If they had stayed pregnant, and accepted the societal, economic, physical and psychological consequences, who knows where they (and the unwanted children) might had ended up?

But even if the stereotype were true, and it was mainly horrible, whiney, stupid, lazy, whorish, low-class, weak, liberal, godless, (etc. negative adjective) women who got abortions, why in hell would anyone (who claimed to care for children) want such women to become mothers? Why would anyone want them to be producing the next generation? It boggles my mind.  :o
 1. Somehow the men who "get it on" with these terrible loose women are rarely brought up in the discussions about how awful abortion is.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: epidemic on November 04, 2013, 03:32:32 PM
People are hurt by those things.

No people are hurt by allowing abortion, unless you count the feelings of the Christian Taliban.

yeah except the fetus that is being crushed.  why do they react violent to the abortion procedure if they do not feel pain.   What is the magical day that they become alive if we rule out conception?    When are they viable enough where it would be murder if we abort them.  Is this day the same for every baby?   Is the day the day he is born?

I don't know the magical day that they should be protected.  However I can suggest that the first 2 months we have a brain and nervous system that is so incomplete as to not be causing pain or discompfort.  Probably 3rd to 4th month to not be causing pain to a sentient being.  5th month may be getting a little grey.  So months 1-4 I cant see any reason not to abort.  Nothing but the most basic of brain function. 

Personally I probably would go all the way up until the 6th or 7th month as the brain is still so primative as to not be considered to be a sentient being, but I have no problem with a compromise of 4 to 5 month.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: shnozzola on November 04, 2013, 05:25:12 PM
   I have to say, I believe life begins at conception.  I believe abortion is not a good idea because of this.  Anyone coming to me for counsel would get the " you have a tiny innocent life growing inside of you, and that should be a consideration in your decision."

   However, just as many people, I believe the decision still belongs to the woman  (and man, if in the picture).  No one can pretend to stand in those shoes and make the decision for another.  I will never judge the person once they decide.  I guess my post is one more in the never-ending debate.   Sadly, I can see both sides of this debate, but I absolutely despise the view that some women make the choice lightly.  Stand in those shoes.   
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on November 04, 2013, 08:31:13 PM
   I have to say, I believe life begins at conception.  I believe abortion is not a good idea because of this.  Anyone coming to me for counsel would get the " you have a tiny innocent life growing inside of you, and that should be a consideration in your decision."

   However, just as many people, I believe the decision still belongs to the woman  (and man, if in the picture).  No one can pretend to stand in those shoes and make the decision for another.  I will never judge the person once they decide.  I guess my post is one more in the never-ending debate.   Sadly, I can see both sides of this debate, but I absolutely despise the view that some women make the choice lightly.  Stand in those shoes.

This is closer to my position than any I've read here. I'm not willing to take a stance on when "life" begins - too many variables and frankly, too many definitions. I don't think abortion is the same as murder and for the most part, I agree with nogods position of abortion on demand for all the reasons she typically provides.

I take this position only because the alternative proposed by the opposition is completely unacceptable.  Until such time as we can provide consistent comprehensive sex education to the masses, and we can also ensure easy access to birth control, along with making sweeping changes in social policies, programs and institutions, this is the only position I can take. I can not support restrictions on abortions without addressing the underlying causes FIRST.

This is also part of why I get so angry when adoption is tossed out as the "obvious" solution. It doesn't address the problem, it addresses the consequences of a lack of better solutions that address the actual problem. If it works so damn well, why haven't we seen any noticeable decrease in abortions?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: screwtape on November 05, 2013, 08:34:50 AM
I have to say, I believe life begins at conception. 

Why do you believe this?  I'm not going to argue back.  But for the life of me, I cannot understand why people think a single cell, or a lump of cells smaller than a fly's brain, is a person.  And absent belief in a soul, I just don't get it.

For me, it is not about "life".  The ova is, technically, alive.  Every one of the millions of sperm cells are alive.  So what?  The questions for me are, when it is a person, and why does it get more right to a uterus than the owner of the uterus?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on November 05, 2013, 10:30:13 AM
Quote
Sadly, I can see both sides of this debate, but I absolutely despise the view that some women make the choice lightly.

Some women do though.  I'm thankful to have never had a BC failure, but I did have a scare in my early 20s right before getting my first IUD.  I was a week late, and made the decision to go for a test[1] and abort if needed. 

I didn't hesitate then, and I wouldn't hesitate now. It's not a difficult decision for me at all. Like Screwtape above, I won't argue that zygote/embryo is alive. I just don't consider it a person, because it isn't.  I won't give my body over to its use simply because it's life, even if it is human.

Even with those whose personhood is indisputable, e.g. adults, their rights end where my rights begin. My rights to my own bodily autonomy trump their rights to the use of my body, even if it meant they would otherwise die. No other living thing has rights to so little as a single drop of my blood if I don't freely give it.  Yet people argue than a microscopic bit of genetic material has the right to house itself in my body, cause me discomfort and pain, permanently change my body, and potentially kill me.
 1. OTC test had come back negative, but I didn't want to rely on that.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Anfauglir on November 05, 2013, 10:36:45 AM
I have to say, I believe life begins at conception. 

Why do you believe this?  I'm not going to argue back.  But for the life of me, I cannot understand why people think a single cell, or a lump of cells smaller than a fly's brain, is a person.  And absent belief in a soul, I just don't get it.

For me, it is not about "life".  The ova is, technically, alive.  Every one of the millions of sperm cells are alive.  So what?  The questions for me are, when it is a person, and why does it get more right to a uterus than the owner of the uterus?

I agree.  Consider also: a bacteria is exactly as "alive" as the embryo is in its first few weeks, often more so.  A tapeworm is certainly more alive, as are head lice.  We'll stamp those out without a moment's hesitation, so "life" clearly isn't the issue.  As you say, its being a "person".
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: shnozzola on November 05, 2013, 07:59:01 PM
   Remember, I am pro-choice.  Guys, I understand the view you have of the clump of cells.  But in my mind, the potential of those only human cells - not chicken, not fish, not plant, not fruit fly cells - are what sets the cells apart.  We all draw the line somewhere.  I guess under cross examination by the lawyer, my view would force me to admit to the jury that abortion at that stage is murder.  In that light I am more emotional than logical.   Your view allows you to not admit that abortion at that stage is murder.  But all these are our own views, our own decisions, the way it should be.

Like I have said here a while ago, my wife has a pressed flower for a three week old ectopic pregnancy that was a clump of cells.  We cannot have children, we cannot afford invitro.  Ce la vie.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on November 05, 2013, 09:47:13 PM
Yes, that group of cells is potentially a human baby. The pregnancy I lost has a name and a gender---completely imaginary but real to me. I do understand the pressed flower. :'(

Nevertheless, making abortion illegal causes far more problems to real life babies and children. And we have to at some point allow grown women to decide whether or not they will  become mothers. Otherwise women are just baby-producers for their male partners, or the state or for the right kind of people.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on November 05, 2013, 09:54:45 PM
   I have to say, I believe life begins at conception.  I believe abortion is not a good idea because of this.  Anyone coming to me for counsel would get the " you have a tiny innocent life growing inside of you, and that should be a consideration in your decision."

   However, just as many people, I believe the decision still belongs to the woman  (and man, if in the picture).  No one can pretend to stand in those shoes and make the decision for another.  I will never judge the person once they decide.  I guess my post is one more in the never-ending debate.   Sadly, I can see both sides of this debate, but I absolutely despise the view that some women make the choice lightly.  Stand in those shoes.

This is closer to my position than any I've read here. I'm not willing to take a stance on when "life" begins - too many variables and frankly, too many definitions. I don't think abortion is the same as murder and for the most part, I agree with nogods position of abortion on demand for all the reasons she typically provides.

I take this position only because the alternative proposed by the opposition is completely unacceptable.  Until such time as we can provide consistent comprehensive sex education to the masses, and we can also ensure easy access to birth control, along with making sweeping changes in social policies, programs and institutions, this is the only position I can take. I can not support restrictions on abortions without addressing the underlying causes FIRST.

This is also part of why I get so angry when adoption is tossed out as the "obvious" solution. It doesn't address the problem, it addresses the consequences of a lack of better solutions that address the actual problem. If it works so damn well, why haven't we seen any noticeable decrease in abortions?

birth control is easy to get and it isn't expensive. 

sex ed is taught starting at age 12 / 6th  grade and has been for decades.

adoption is a solution once you are pregnant. 

because women are encouraged to abort.  if people sayh abortion is ok why would they go adoption route.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on November 05, 2013, 09:57:45 PM
If you don't support bans on abortion then you saying you personally think it is killing a life doesn't seem credible, or you don't mind others killing a life. 

if you have conviction that is is killing fetuses then you have no problem with "telling" other women what to do with their "bodies".    Just  like you dave no problem banning rape and other immoral transgressons.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on November 05, 2013, 10:10:53 PM
If you don't support bans on  then you saying you personally think it is killing a life doesn't seem credible, or you don't mind others killing a life. 

if you have conviction that is is killing fetuses then you have no problem with "telling" other women what to do with their "bodies".    Just  like you dave no problem banning rape and other immoral transgressons.

Because telling a female she can have an abortion is controlling her body. That's what you said, right?

Idiotic.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jaimehlers on November 05, 2013, 10:46:59 PM
If you don't support bans on abortion then you saying you personally think it is killing a life doesn't seem credible, or you don't mind others killing a life.
Wrong.  Not that I'm surprised you'd say something like this, considering your attitudes.  With you, it's always about people agreeing with you or being part of the problem - which is fanaticism if I've ever seen it.  Real life is much messier than that.

I don't like abortions and I don't agree with doing them except under very specific circumstances.  But trying to force that attitude onto others would be worse, because I would effectively be devaluing the lives of actual, living people in favor of the potential lives of human fetuses which aren't even viable during the time period when most abortions happen.  It's one thing once a fetus has become viable (after 20-24 weeks), because a woman has had plenty of time by then to decide whether to have an abortion or not.  But before that?  Forbidding abortion and calling it murder ignores the deeper problem that you're effectively treating women as second-class humans by forbidding them the right to make decisions about whether they want to be pregnant or not.

Quote from: DrTesla
if you have conviction that is is killing fetuses then you have no problem with "telling" other women what to do with their "bodies".    Just  like you dave no problem banning rape and other immoral transgressons.
This illustrates a big problem with your beliefs about abortion.  As far as you're concerned, a woman who gets pregnant instantly loses the right to make decisions regarding her own body.  That attitude effective turns pregnancy into a kind of incarceration - no matter what the circumstances are behind a pregnancy, a pregnant woman should remain pregnant, even if it's only a few days, and other people should act to restrain her from doing anything that might harm or kill the fetus.  I know you aren't saying this, and I hope that it isn't your attitude, but that's really how it ends up coming across.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on November 05, 2013, 11:27:56 PM
If you don't support bans on abortion then you saying you personally think it is killing a life doesn't seem credible, or you don't mind others killing a life.
Wrong.  Not that I'm surprised you'd say something like this, considering your attitudes.  With you, it's always about people agreeing with you or being part of the problem - which is fanaticism if I've ever seen it.  Real life is much messier than that.

I don't like abortions and I don't agree with doing them except under very specific circumstances.  But trying to force that attitude onto others would be worse, because I would effectively be devaluing the lives of actual, living people in favor of the potential lives of human fetuses which aren't even viable during the time period when most abortions happen.  It's one thing once a fetus has become viable (after 20-24 weeks), because a woman has had plenty of time by then to decide whether to have an abortion or not.  But before that?  Forbidding abortion and calling it murder ignores the deeper problem that you're effectively treating women as second-class humans by forbidding them the right to make decisions about whether they want to be pregnant or not.

Quote from: DrTesla
if you have conviction that is is killing fetuses then you have no problem with "telling" other women what to do with their "bodies".    Just  like you dave no problem banning rape and other immoral transgressons.
This illustrates a big problem with your beliefs about abortion.  As far as you're concerned, a woman who gets pregnant instantly loses the right to make decisions regarding her own body.  That attitude effective turns pregnancy into a kind of incarceration - no matter what the circumstances are behind a pregnancy, a pregnant woman should remain pregnant, even if it's only a few days, and other people should act to restrain her from doing anything that might harm or kill the fetus.  I know you aren't saying this, and I hope that it isn't your attitude, but that's really how it ends up coming across.

He's probably like that one politician in South or North Carolina who stated, and tried to make a law that women who have miscarriages should be investigated, and perhaps sent to jail, and/or fined.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on November 05, 2013, 11:41:52 PM
Guys, I understand the view you have of the clump of cells.  But in my mind, the potential of those only human cells - not chicken, not fish, not plant, not fruit fly cells - are what sets the cells apart.

Lots of things set lots of things apart.  Set apart in what way, and whether that makes sense - that's what matters.  Defining those cells as a person greatly diminishes the value of personhood, because it has nothing to do with the things that make us who we are.

We all draw the line somewhere.  I guess under cross examination by the lawyer, my view would force me to admit to the jury that abortion at that stage is murder.  In that light I am more emotional than logical.

If you know it doesn't make logical sense, then what emotions motivate you to accuse women who have abortions of being murderers?

Your view allows you to not admit that abortion at that stage is murder.

Now you are calling everyone who disagrees with you a liar.

But all these are our own views, our own decisions, the way it should be.

Like I have said here a while ago, my wife has a pressed flower for a three week old ectopic pregnancy that was a clump of cells.  We cannot have children, we cannot afford invitro.  Ce la vie.

Is that the emotional origin of your "you're a murderer, women" accusation?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on November 05, 2013, 11:49:07 PM
   I have to say, I believe life begins at conception.  I believe abortion is not a good idea because of this.  Anyone coming to me for counsel would get the " you have a tiny innocent life growing inside of you, and that should be a consideration in your decision."

   However, just as many people, I believe the decision still belongs to the woman  (and man, if in the picture).  No one can pretend to stand in those shoes and make the decision for another.  I will never judge the person once they decide.  I guess my post is one more in the never-ending debate.   Sadly, I can see both sides of this debate, but I absolutely despise the view that some women make the choice lightly.  Stand in those shoes.

This is closer to my position than any I've read here. I'm not willing to take a stance on when "life" begins - too many variables and frankly, too many definitions. I don't think abortion is the same as murder and for the most part, I agree with nogods position of abortion on demand for all the reasons she typically provides.

I take this position only because the alternative proposed by the opposition is completely unacceptable.  Until such time as we can provide consistent comprehensive sex education to the masses, and we can also ensure easy access to birth control, along with making sweeping changes in social policies, programs and institutions, this is the only position I can take. I can not support restrictions on abortions without addressing the underlying causes FIRST.

This is also part of why I get so angry when adoption is tossed out as the "obvious" solution. It doesn't address the problem, it addresses the consequences of a lack of better solutions that address the actual problem. If it works so damn well, why haven't we seen any noticeable decrease in abortions?

birth control is easy to get and it isn't expensive. 

sex ed is taught starting at age 12 / 6th  grade and has been for decades.

adoption is a solution once you are pregnant. 

because women are encouraged to abort.  if people sayh abortion is ok why would they go adoption route.
Oh great, it's you. Still have nothing to contribute to the conversation I see.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on November 05, 2013, 11:56:11 PM
If you don't support bans on abortion then you saying you personally think it is killing a life doesn't seem credible, or you don't mind others killing a life. 

if you have conviction that is is killing fetuses then you have no problem with "telling" other women what to do with their "bodies".    Just  like you dave no problem banning rape and other immoral transgressons.


Just because.

Did you get around to reading the Facts on Abortion (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25718.0.html) OP yet? Why bother discussing the crap you make up with all that factual information available?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jaimehlers on November 06, 2013, 12:10:52 AM
Remember, I am pro-choice.  Guys, I understand the view you have of the clump of cells.  But in my mind, the potential of those only human cells - not chicken, not fish, not plant, not fruit fly cells - are what sets the cells apart.  We all draw the line somewhere.  I guess under cross examination by the lawyer, my view would force me to admit to the jury that abortion at that stage is murder.  In that light I am more emotional than logical.   Your view allows you to not admit that abortion at that stage is murder.  But all these are our own views, our own decisions, the way it should be.

Like I have said here a while ago, my wife has a pressed flower for a three week old ectopic pregnancy that was a clump of cells.  We cannot have children, we cannot afford invitro.  Ce la vie.
You know, while it's true that they're human cells, that isn't enough to make them special in their own right.  A blood cell is also a human cell, as is a bone cell, a muscle cell, or whatever other cell you pick.  While it's true that fetal cells will eventually turn into another human being, assuming they don't die first (as many as half of all pregnancies end in miscarriages), that very fact makes it impossible to consider voluntary abortions - early ones, anyway - acts of murder.  Remember, abortion rights are about allowing people to make their own decisions about having an abortion or not having one.

When you call someone else's decision to have an abortion murder, you're putting a lot of emotional weight on them which is, frankly, unfair and inappropriate.  It's already a hard enough decision to make without someone coming along and calling them murderers.  Not only that, but it's not respectful of their right to make the choice.  I don't approve of abortions and if asked, I would recommend against one - but I wouldn't accuse them of murder, or say anything except "it's your life and your decision.  If you're willing to live with it, it's not my place to judge you for it."  Because, really, it isn't.  It's one thing to say give the reasons why you would recommend against an abortion, but to go any further than that is to cross the line into being judgmental.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Anfauglir on November 06, 2013, 04:38:47 AM
if people sayh abortion is ok why would they go adoption route.

I'll ask it again.  DrTesla, how many children have you personally adopted?

Second question: if adoption is such a universal panacea for unwanted children, why are there any children currently in orphanages or foster care?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Iamrational on November 06, 2013, 06:20:52 AM
If you don't support bans on abortion then you saying you personally think it is killing a life doesn't seem credible, or you don't mind others killing a life. 

So it not all right for woman to do it, interesting.

However, if god was real that means your creator kills arguably 1 out of 4 babies. Yes your god kills approx. 900,000 babies every year! Nothing wrong there though?

Consider approx 26,000 stillbirths every year. That is insane to think someone is out there deliberately executing them. Many of these soon to be moms want these babies. For you though, easy cheesy. No worries. Must be a plan.

But women if you do it, ewww your a murderer.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: screwtape on November 06, 2013, 08:05:44 AM
If you don't support bans on abortion then you saying you personally think it is killing a life doesn't seem credible, or you don't mind others killing a life. 

if you have conviction that is is killing fetuses then you have no problem with "telling" other women what to do with their "bodies".    Just  like you dave no problem banning rape and other immoral transgressons.

Rather than stating the obvious or repeating your stupid, unsupported opinions, add something to the conversation. Or go play in traffic.  And if you chose the option that does not involve you being run over by a delivery van, write something coherent.  The above quote reads like it was written by someone who was sniffing ether all day.

Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on November 06, 2013, 08:26:37 AM
Dr tesla, have you ever eaten a boiled egg and found a tiny speck in it?

You know what that is?

Its a tiny baby chicken.

Would you say eating the egg would equate to eating a live chicken?

Why not?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: screwtape on November 06, 2013, 08:31:32 AM
I had scrambled chickens and toast this morning.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Mrjason on November 06, 2013, 08:59:05 AM
I have to say, I believe life begins at conception. 

Why do you believe this?  I'm not going to argue back.  But for the life of me, I cannot understand why people think a single cell, or a lump of cells smaller than a fly's brain, is a person.  And absent belief in a soul, I just don't get it.

For me, it is not about "life".  The ova is, technically, alive.  Every one of the millions of sperm cells are alive.  So what?  The questions for me are, when it is a person, and why does it get more right to a uterus than the owner of the uterus?

I agree.  Consider also: a bacteria is exactly as "alive" as the embryo is in its first few weeks, often more so.  A tapeworm is certainly more alive, as are head lice.  We'll stamp those out without a moment's hesitation, so "life" clearly isn't the issue.  As you say, its being a "person".

I would consider it to be a sliding scale with the moral status and subsequent protection afforded to the embryo increasing as the potential of the "person" gets closer to being realised.

Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on November 06, 2013, 09:32:15 AM
^^ That's how personhood works in other contexts, post-birth.  No idea why it wouldn't work that way pre-birth as well.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on November 06, 2013, 09:52:57 AM
Quote
Dr tesla, have you ever eaten a boiled egg and found a tiny speck in it?

You know what that is?

Its a tiny baby chicken.

It's not.  The speck is a bit of blood that got into the egg while it was forming within the hen's body. Most people (in industrialized countries like the US and Australia) eat eggs from factory farms where the chance of an egg getting fertilized is practically zero, and the chance of it getting brooded by a hen long enough to begin to develop is even less.  Blood spots are not uncommon, but factories candle the eggs to screen them. They dispose of the ones with blood spots, because people think it's gross or unhealthy to eat them.

Even if you eat from a mixed gender flock the only way you'll have any development is if you neglect to pick up eggs for several days and have a broody hen sitting on the nest.  Even then within the first four days it doesn't really even resemble a spot. The color change is minimal, and will always be right by the yolk.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on November 06, 2013, 06:53:04 PM
I stand corrected.

However, the entire egg had the potential for being a live chicken, so it is still not too astray from some form of abortion.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on November 06, 2013, 06:54:26 PM
If you don't support bans on abortion then you saying you personally think it is killing a life doesn't seem credible, or you don't mind others killing a life. 

So it not all right for woman to do it, interesting.

However, if god was real that means your creator kills arguably 1 out of 4 babies. Yes your god kills approx. 900,000 babies every year! Nothing wrong there though?

Consider approx 26,000 stillbirths every year. That is insane to think someone is out there deliberately executing them. Many of these soon to be moms want these babies. For you though, easy cheesy. No worries. Must be a plan.

But women if you do it, ewww your a murderer.

Your fallacy is assuming God kills the babies.  God created life, he does not kill anything.   Sometimes the code for life goes haywire and those lifeforms die.  We all eventually die but God does not kill us.    A doctor can tell you why the baby in a miscarriage died and it is natural causes, not some kind of abortion procedure from the heavens.   lol
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on November 06, 2013, 06:55:35 PM
Whose "code for life" is that, according to you?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on November 06, 2013, 06:58:00 PM
If you don't support bans on abortion then you saying you personally think it is killing a life doesn't seem credible, or you don't mind others killing a life. 

if you have conviction that is is killing fetuses then you have no problem with "telling" other women what to do with their "bodies".    Just  like you dave no problem banning rape and other immoral transgressons.

Rather than stating the obvious or repeating your stupid, unsupported opinions, add something to the conversation. Or go play in traffic.  And if you chose the option that does not involve you being run over by a delivery van, write something coherent.  The above quote reads like it was written by someone who was sniffing ether all day.

My point is, if you say you personally oppose abortion, there is only one reason to oppose it.  It is ending a life.  If it is ending a life then it seems logical that you would then support a ban on abortions by other people.      By way of analogy, this is like saying I personally oppose slavery, but who am I to tell another person he can't own slaves? 

You concede the immorality of an action but then essentially bless the immoral act if other choose to do it.   
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on November 06, 2013, 06:59:58 PM
Whose "code for life" is that, according to you?

dna mutations, defects, etc.   god isn't creating each individual person.  he created the process of life.  He created the first man and woman and then they procreate.   So sometimes the design template gets messed up in the offspring and they die.    At best you can only blame him for a design that sometimes leads to error that leads to death of lifeform.    But nobody is perfect,  lol
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: magicmiles on November 06, 2013, 07:02:32 PM
Quote
Dr tesla, have you ever eaten a boiled egg and found a tiny speck in it?

You know what that is?

Its a tiny baby chicken.

It's not.  The speck is a bit of blood that got into the egg while it was forming within the hen's body. Most people (in industrialized countries like the US and Australia) eat eggs from factory farms where the chance of an egg getting fertilized is practically zero, and the chance of it getting brooded by a hen long enough to begin to develop is even less.  Blood spots are not uncommon, but factories candle the eggs to screen them. They dispose of the ones with blood spots, because people think it's gross or unhealthy to eat them.

Even if you eat from a mixed gender flock the only way you'll have any development is if you neglect to pick up eggs for several days and have a broody hen sitting on the nest.  Even then within the first four days it doesn't really even resemble a spot. The color change is minimal, and will always be right by the yolk.

That whole post was very well informed. Well done.

It's also made me hungry. I think I might pop out for some bacon and chicken period.[1]
 1. I know this is biologically incorrect, strictly speaking. Just hoping to gross a few people out.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on November 06, 2013, 07:04:00 PM
But nobody is perfect,  lol

Well there we have it.
God is not perfect.

Nothing to do here now, knowing that god is not worthy of worship.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on November 06, 2013, 07:04:44 PM
if people sayh abortion is ok why would they go adoption route.

I'll ask it again.  DrTesla, how many children have you personally adopted?

Second question: if adoption is such a universal panacea for unwanted children, why are there any children currently in orphanages or foster care?

How many of the former slaves did your great grandparents  give shelter and food to when they were freed back in the 1860's?    If none, does that mean we shouldn't have banned slavery?

How many Germans/Jews who were liberated in WW2 from Hitler's regime  were taken care of by people who supported the war to liberate Europe?  many of those peeopl lived in poverty in war stricken Germany.     if none,  does that mean it was wrong to liberate Hitler? 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on November 06, 2013, 07:07:27 PM
But nobody is perfect,  lol

Well there we have it.
God is not perfect.

Nothing to do here now, knowing that god is not worthy of worship.

you are conflating the concept of biblical god with any possibility of god.

I never said it is a god that must worshiped or wants us to worhip it.   All I said is he is an intelligent designer, the design of life is intelligent meaning it was the result of planning by a 3rd party, aka God.      He's the Big Engineer in the Sky.      the original design of lifeforms is awesome and amazingly complex but errors can get made in the reproduction of offspring.   Even so, consider how few humans have serious errors especially early in life. 

And so it goes. 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on November 06, 2013, 07:16:31 PM
It is never too late to repent of your present support of the abomination that is abortion.   The human brain is capable of rationalizing the most horrific things at times, that does not mean you are a bad person in general.    You can still change your mind.    The seeds of Doubt are spreading thru your brain, do not fight it any longer.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrPancake on November 06, 2013, 07:16:45 PM
In regards to the OP, that was the same conclusion I came to. If babies who die get an instant pass to heaven, then life on Earth is little more than an opportunity to get damned. Utterly depressing (and insane.)

Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on November 06, 2013, 07:19:30 PM
In regards to the OP, that was the same conclusion I came to. If babies who die get an instant pass to heaven, then life on Earth is little more than an opportunity to get damned. Utterly depressing (and insane.)

what if being damned is you are given another life that is crushed via the abortionist in the womb.  given you had no problem with because it was not you being crushed in your previous life.  lol

arrogance is the trademark of the fool and/or evil man.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on November 06, 2013, 07:25:27 PM
People on this website claim to be logical beings.

Yet consider:  They first argue Christians and other religious people are fools and the Bible etc is a load of crap.   
                     But, illogically,  they go on to tout the very concept of God presented by the people they just said were fools.   
                     It seems you have given these religious people a monopoly on what God must be if God does exsit even though you insist no God does. 
                     But God is what he is regardless of your perceptions of what he should be.
                     Given not one of us have had contact with God we cannot define what he is and what he isn't and what we should and should not do in relation to his existence.   

 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrPancake on November 06, 2013, 07:30:56 PM
In regards to the OP, that was the same conclusion I came to. If babies who die get an instant pass to heaven, then life on Earth is little more than an opportunity to get damned. Utterly depressing (and insane.)

what if being damned is you are given another life that is crushed via the abortionist in the womb.  given you had no problem with because it was not you being crushed in your previous life.  lol

arrogance is the trademark of the fool and/or evil man.

I'm not getting what you're trying to say here. People who are okay with abortion are punished by being reincarnated as a fetus that gets aborted? ....I think?

Also Matthew 5:22.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on November 06, 2013, 07:43:12 PM
I would say a 25% failure rate is pretty high for anything that is supposedly intelligently designed. That is about how many fertilized human eggs are lost to miscarriage. Many of those pregnancies would have been babies that the woman wanted, and that is a tragedy.[1]

It is true that some miscarriage is due to "nature" ie defects in the embryo that can be identified after the fact by examination. First trimester miscarriage is usually due to abnormal chromosomes.

But later miscarriages are due to combinations of factors: illness like food poisoning, diabetes, lupus or malaria; physical abuse and stress; malnutrition, over or underweight; environmental pollution; exposure to radiation or chemicals in the workplace, smoking, drug and alcohol use, too much caffeine, prescription meds, and age-- a 45 year old pregnant woman has a 50% chance of miscarriage.  :(

(I was tempted to add "lol" somewhere in this post in honor of Dr T's return......)
 1. In business and industry, a product that fails at 25% is, well, considered a failure, not the industry standard. Nobody would be happy with a new car or cell phone that only worked 75% of the time. 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on November 06, 2013, 09:14:01 PM
I would say a 25% failure rate is pretty high for anything that is supposedly intelligently designed. That is about how many fertilized human eggs are lost to miscarriage. Many of those pregnancies would have been babies that the woman wanted, and that is a tragedy.[1]

It is true that some miscarriage is due to "nature" ie defects in the embryo that can be identified after the fact by examination. First trimester miscarriage is usually due to abnormal chromosomes.

But later miscarriages are due to combinations of factors: illness like food poisoning, diabetes, lupus or malaria; physical abuse and stress; malnutrition, over or underweight; environmental pollution; exposure to radiation or chemicals in the workplace, smoking, drug and alcohol use, too much caffeine, prescription meds, and age-- a 45 year old pregnant woman has a 50% chance of miscarriage.  :(

(I was tempted to add "lol" somewhere in this post in honor of Dr T's return......)
 1. In business and industry, a product that fails at 25% is, well, considered a failure, not the industry standard. Nobody would be happy with a new car or cell phone that only worked 75% of the time. 

your 25 percent failure rate is clearly not legit.   

but you could say there is 100 percent failure rate as we all die. 

you are just trying to rationalize murder of babies by telling yourself God is an abortionist even though ostensibly you don't think God exists so it is odd you would use God as a justification.   

regardless IF God is aborting babies as you claim that doesn't make abortion ok.   two wrongs don't make a right even if God is one of those doing wrong.   lol

abortion has nothing to do with religion...you construct a false premise that it does so therefore it is ok because you don't subscribe to that religion.   Abortion is simply a matter of ethics,  is it life and if it is,  should we terminate that life.    Decent people fall on one side of that question.   Barbarians and sadists on the other.   
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on November 06, 2013, 09:15:15 PM
In regards to the OP, that was the same conclusion I came to. If babies who die get an instant pass to heaven, then life on Earth is little more than an opportunity to get damned. Utterly depressing (and insane.)

what if being damned is you are given another life that is crushed via the abortionist in the womb.  given you had no problem with because it was not you being crushed in your previous life.  lol

arrogance is the trademark of the fool and/or evil man.

I'm not getting what you're trying to say here. People who are okay with abortion are punished by being reincarnated as a fetus that gets aborted? ....I think?

Also Matthew 5:22.

that is just a theory I fancy.

Some of you militant atheits know the Bible better than most Christians.   lol  got the Bible on the brain 24-7?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrPancake on November 06, 2013, 09:18:32 PM
Quote
Some of you militant atheits know the Bible better than most Christians.   lol  got the Bible on the brain 24-7?

Funny you mention that. I actually don't know that many verses, but this one in particular I remember because many Christians are fond of calling those who disagree with them fools.

You can call me an idiot all you like though, I won't condemn you.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on November 06, 2013, 09:21:26 PM
Quote
Some of you militant atheits know the Bible better than most Christians.   lol  got the Bible on the brain 24-7?

Funny you mention that. I actually don't know that many verses, but this one in particular I remember because many Christians are fond of calling those who disagree with them fools.

You can call me an idiot all you like though, I won't condemn you.

i don't get the impresssio you know any Christians, closet you get to them is Bill Maher's (mis)characterization or extrapolation of them on his dumb HBO show. 

I don't think Christians are out to get you. 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on November 06, 2013, 09:23:04 PM
There was this skit on this comedy show that use to be on Fox News  where they were poking fun at these militant atheists and they had a bunch of atheist book titles and one of them was God Sucks.   Another was F---- You God.   

lol
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on November 06, 2013, 09:34:38 PM
I would say a 25% failure rate is pretty high for anything that is supposedly intelligently designed. That is about how many fertilized human eggs are lost to miscarriage. Many of those pregnancies would have been babies that the woman wanted, and that is a tragedy.[1]

It is true that some miscarriage is due to "nature" ie defects in the embryo that can be identified after the fact by examination. First trimester miscarriage is usually due to abnormal chromosomes.

But later miscarriages are due to combinations of factors: illness like food poisoning, diabetes, lupus or malaria; physical abuse and stress; malnutrition, over or underweight; environmental pollution; exposure to radiation or chemicals in the workplace, smoking, drug and alcohol use, too much caffeine, prescription meds, and age-- a 45 year old pregnant woman has a 50% chance of miscarriage.  :(

(I was tempted to add "lol" somewhere in this post in honor of Dr T's return......)
 1. In business and industry, a product that fails at 25% is, well, considered a failure, not the industry standard. Nobody would be happy with a new car or cell phone that only worked 75% of the time. 

your 25 percent failure rate is clearly not legit.   

but you could say there is 100 percent failure rate as we all die. 

you are just trying to rationalize murder of babies by telling yourself God is an abortionist even though ostensibly you don't think God exists so it is odd you would use God as a justification.   

regardless IF God is aborting babies as you claim that doesn't make abortion ok.   two wrongs don't make a right even if God is one of those doing wrong.   lol

abortion has nothing to do with religion...you construct a false premise that it does so therefore it is ok because you don't subscribe to that religion.   Abortion is simply a matter of ethics,  is it life and if it is,  should we terminate that life.    Decent people fall on one side of that question.   Barbarians and sadists on the other.   

What is not "legit" about the 25% rate of miscarriages? That is the statistic. look it up. You count the number of pregnancies that end by themselves, in what is called "spontaneous abortion" (as opposed to medically induced abortion). It varies from 10 to 50%. On average, 25% of fertilized eggs do not make it to term.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on November 06, 2013, 09:43:21 PM
When fact crashes against ideology, ideology stands firm...
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on November 06, 2013, 09:47:47 PM
http://miscarriage.about.com/od/riskfactors/a/miscarriage-statistics.htm


Most doctors agree that seeing a fetal heartbeat on ultrasound means the risk of miscarriage is much lower. Confirmation of a fetal heartbeat means that the baby has passed the initial stages of development wherein the majority of first trimester miscarriages occur.

It's hard to pick a specific number for the risk of miscarriage at this point. Some cite numbers like a 4-5% risk of miscarriage at this point, but studies show a widely varying risk based on individual factors. The one thing that's safe to say, however, is that seeing the baby's heartbeat is a good sign. It means the baby is growing as it should be, and there's little reason to be concerned at this point.

Unfortunately, there is one exception to this rule. A slow fetal heart rate (less than 100 beats per minute) may signal an impending miscarriage, though this isn't true in 100% of cases.

The majority of miscarriages occur in the first trimester.

Over 80% of miscarriages occur before 12 weeks, so the chances look good for a healthy baby once you've finished the first trimester. Again, many individual factors are in play, but if 15-20% of pregnancies end in miscarriage and 80% of miscarriages occur in the first trimester, a safe estimate would be that in the general population the risk of pregnancy loss after 12 weeks is 3-4%. After 20 weeks, when a loss would be termed a stillbirth rather than a miscarriage, the risk is around 1 in 160.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on November 06, 2013, 09:52:19 PM
When fact crashes against ideology, ideology stands firm...

your ideology is abortion.  abortion zealot.  You do not care if it is life, you will support no matter what and use various dumb rationalizations including the God that you claim doesn't exist somehow aborts babies from the heavens.   

One could also argue that since God giveth God can taketh away.   You, on the other hand, cannot decide who lives and who dies in a moral sense. 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on November 06, 2013, 10:23:36 PM
isn't it ironic. The people the most against abortion are also the ones who want to do the least to make life on planet earth more pleasant.

Health insurance for all? Who you frickin' kidding. How many abortions wouldn't happen if every woman who got pregnant knew that her insurance would cover most of the cost?

Social services to help the poor. Food stamps and such? That's commie stuff. Yea, sure, maybe pregnant women wouldn't have to worry so much about how to feed their unborn child once delivered if she knew that she had a secure source of food.

Higher taxes? Hey, there's no such thing as a free lunch if you don't count per diem and other tax breaks that the right wing consider a god-given right. And there is no such thing as a free lunch, except for the part that it shouldn't cost a frickin' penny to run this country, so there shouldn't be any taxes at all, because they all love America, they just don't think anyone should have to pay for it. Especially tax money that might help someone who was put out of work because their job was shipped overseas by yet another American patriot who puts money before anything and everything.

And there are people who think a raped nine year old should have to carry her child to term, because otherwise the poor little unborn kid will never experience the joy of giving birth at age eight when she gets raped later on down the line. That would be immoral.

No, if those of you who are so vehemently anti-abortion would take the time to figure out why various women choose that option, and then if you would set about to help create a society in which people seldom even considered terminating a pregnancy because things were going so well for all of us, then the problem would go away on its own. But instead you guys want to legislate something that can't be legislated. there were abortions before Roe v. Wade. Just real icky ones that oft-times killed the woman too. Which is what you want, isn't it. Control over life and death.  And the kid has to get born before whichever power trip you are on can kill him.

It ain't immoral if they die after they are born. That's their responsibility. All you care about is getting them out the chute. That gives you a moral high horse to ride.

Giddy up, pardner. Ride on west into the sunset, where you can ignore the actual issues all day long and concentrate on condemning the byproduct of so many social failures. Screw the problems. All you want to concern yourself is the easy stuff. Crap, a guy shouldn't have to think just to have a vehement opinion. right, DrT?

Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on November 06, 2013, 10:30:35 PM
When fact crashes against ideology, ideology stands firm...

your ideology is abortion.  abortion zealot.  You do not care if it is life, you will support no matter what and use various dumb rationalizations including the God that you claim doesn't exist somehow aborts babies from the heavens.   

One could also argue that since God giveth God can taketh away.   You, on the other hand, cannot decide who lives and who dies in a moral sense.

Word salad?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on November 06, 2013, 10:53:03 PM
isn't it ironic. The people the most against abortion are also the ones who want to do the least to make life on planet earth more pleasant.

Health insurance for all? Who you frickin' kidding. How many abortions wouldn't happen if every woman who got pregnant knew that her insurance would cover most of the cost?

Social services to help the poor. Food stamps and such? That's commie stuff. Yea, sure, maybe pregnant women wouldn't have to worry so much about how to feed their unborn child once delivered if she knew that she had a secure source of food.

Higher taxes? Hey, there's no such thing as a free lunch if you don't count per diem and other tax breaks that the right wing consider a god-given right. And there is no such thing as a free lunch, except for the part that it shouldn't cost a frickin' penny to run this country, so there shouldn't be any taxes at all, because they all love America, they just don't think anyone should have to pay for it. Especially tax money that might help someone who was put out of work because their job was shipped overseas by yet another American patriot who puts money before anything and everything.

And there are people who think a raped nine year old should have to carry her child to term, because otherwise the poor little unborn kid will never experience the joy of giving birth at age eight when she gets raped later on down the line. That would be immoral.

No, if those of you who are so vehemently anti-abortion would take the time to figure out why various women choose that option, and then if you would set about to help create a society in which people seldom even considered terminating a pregnancy because things were going so well for all of us, then the problem would go away on its own. But instead you guys want to legislate something that can't be legislated. there were abortions before Roe v. Wade. Just real icky ones that oft-times killed the woman too. Which is what you want, isn't it. Control over life and death.  And the kid has to get born before whichever power trip you are on can kill him.

It ain't immoral if they die after they are born. That's their responsibility. All you care about is getting them out the chute. That gives you a moral high horse to ride.

Giddy up, pardner. Ride on west into the sunset, where you can ignore the actual issues all day long and concentrate on condemning the byproduct of so many social failures. Screw the problems. All you want to concern yourself is the easy stuff. Crap, a guy shouldn't have to think just to have a vehement opinion. right, DrT?

You are a redneck blowhard, bro.  I can see you being a blue collar union factory worker.

ObamaCare doesn't seem to be going too well.  They can't get their stupid website to work.  Most everybody's premiums have skyrocketed and many people are losing their plans as a result of the law despite Obama's consistent promise people could keep their company plans if they liked them.   Other peeople are losing their jobs or being reduced to part time as a result of the law.   
Free healthcare isn't a right.  The main reason you work is to pay for your healthcare costs and your food and shelter.  You are basically sayig people have the right to other people's money which seems like a violation of private property rights and wealth redistribution.  You cry about the commi label  but then you advocate Karl Marx.

Poor people are already eligible for numerous government programs to help them that we have paid for with our taxes.  We are overtaxed, so if the poor are not being supported with our tax dollars that is on the politicians who are throwing it at the special interest groups like unions to secure their votes.  Obama's admin has thrown millions of dollars at solar power compnanuies who have since gone bankrupt because that isn't a profitable market.  We are subsidizing corporate failures yet you claim we haven't paid taxes to support the poor.  lol

Nothing stops you and other leftwingers from paying more taxes if you think the government deserves more money.  Pretty sure you don't do that and in fact you look for tax breaks and take them to save as much money as possible.  So you are hypocrite on the tax issue.

You are justing trying to make abortion issue about anything other than the abortion issue.  Is it life. Should we terminate life simply because it is an inconvenience for the parents?    All you are doing is trying to rationalize abortin but the solution to problems is not kill babies if they are alive.  Civilized peoples understand this concept. 

Boom.   I Am  Legend.

Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on November 06, 2013, 11:22:44 PM
I gotta say guys, this thread is far more enjoyable, and actually easier to make sense of, now that I'm reading it with dude on ignore.   :)
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on November 06, 2013, 11:28:46 PM
A redneck blowhard...yes DrT, yes you are.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on November 06, 2013, 11:58:51 PM
trolling removed.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on November 07, 2013, 12:09:31 AM
So sayeth The Lord Thy God!...err, Troll.

Really, does he think anyone is taking anything he says seriously at this point?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Astreja on November 07, 2013, 12:15:49 AM
Really, does he think anyone is taking anything he says seriously at this point?

Well, I'm certainly not taking him seriously.  At this point I'm not even sure he knows his own life story.  Spouse or no spouse?  Children or no children?  Writes like a 13-year-old who just discovered Internet abbreviations.

Dr. T., are you bitter about abortion because of personal experience (e.g., an ex-girlfriend rid herself of what was going to be your firstborn)?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on November 07, 2013, 12:20:11 AM
I'm just a man trying to do what little I can to make the case against abortion.   I expect to be demonized.  But all I do is hold up the mirror for you to see yourselves. 

If there was no doubt abortion was not killing innocents, you would not need to make convuluted tedious nonsensical arguments such as God is an abortionist, etc,  on an internet comment board.    You seek validation from others for your warped justifications of abortion. 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Astreja on November 07, 2013, 12:21:55 AM
I'm just a man trying to do what little I can to make the case against abortion.   I expect to be demonized.  But all I do is hold up the mirror for you to see yourselves.

(Springy G peers into mirror)  Mm.  Look pretty good for a 56-year-old crone.  Must be the divinity gene.  ;)
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on November 07, 2013, 12:26:02 AM
I expect to be demonized.

And to achieve this, you behave like enough of an ass to merit demonization.  Self-fulfilling prophesy.  "Boom LOLZ!"

Hence, troll.  Just here to get a rise out of people and pretend that it's because you're right, instead of the real reason - because you're behaving like an ass.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on November 07, 2013, 12:27:01 AM
Comment boards like this do demonstrate that abortionists have a soul and a conscience ,  in essence there is innner "good person" in them.  Why else talk about it if it is nothing more than something benign like a trip to the dentist.   

 Thus, they can be persuaded. 

People used to be passionate in their support of slavery until a gifted rhetorician in Lincoln came along and set that instiution on fire and watched it burn. 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on November 07, 2013, 12:28:04 AM
I expect to be demonized.

And to achieve this, you behave like enough of an ass to merit demonization.  Self-fulfilling prophesy.  "Boom LOLZ!"

Hence, troll.  Just here to get a rise out of people and pretend that it's because you're right, instead of the real reason - because you're behaving like an ass.

this is a falsity.  I just try to lighten the mood because abortionists tend to be very angry and defensive.  we are all friends here.   even some good people were duped by Hitler and supported him at first.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on November 07, 2013, 12:31:51 AM
Troll pretends stupidity/innocence.  Troll is unpersuasive.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Astreja on November 07, 2013, 12:33:26 AM
We are all friends here.

No.  Definitely not.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on November 07, 2013, 12:33:54 AM
I will not apologize for loving babies.   I will not apologize for standing up for the little ones who cannot speak for themselves.   I don't not apologize for believing Life is a gift regardless who gave it be it God or   Sponteneous Chemical Reactions.    Why should I deprive another human something I will not forsake myself? 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on November 07, 2013, 12:38:40 AM
It is not a War on Women to oppose abortion it is a war to save women as 50 percent of aborted babies are female.    Ending a tiny female's life, crushing it and causes extreme pain, is a horror of horrors that I shall not abide without vocal protest.   
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: DrTesla on November 07, 2013, 12:47:45 AM
Civilized societies protect the elderly, the young, women,  the crippled, the mentally ill,  the helpless.   We do not stamp them out of existence for convenience or otherr false justifications.

What is right is not always what is easiest.    The mother who does not abort is a hero as much as any man on the battlefield.   
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: MadBunny on November 07, 2013, 01:51:33 AM
I realize I've missed bit here, but are you one of those 'when the sperm meets the egg' = fully realized human being types?

Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on November 07, 2013, 01:57:33 AM
In case I missed it...has DrT managed to actually address anyone's points other than to call them murderers and nazis?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Astreja on November 07, 2013, 02:00:03 AM
I realize I've missed bit here, but are you one of those 'when the sperm meets the egg' = fully realized human being types?

Apparently so.

However, I don't see much of a proposal to help ensure that (sperm+egg) have the necessary resources to attain that full realization of their potential.  It's easy to stand in front of a clinic and yell vile things at women who have chosen to terminate a pregnancy, especially when you're in the company of a dozen like-minded zealots from your church.  Not so easy to really walk the walk.

I say we start taxing churches, and redirect that money specifically to quality education, eradication of poverty, realistic sex education classes, safe and affordable housing, and free birth control -- All of which would improve society and reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on November 07, 2013, 02:24:28 AM

You are a redneck blowhard, bro.  I can see you being a blue collar union factory worker.

ObamaCare doesn't seem to be going too well.  They can't get their stupid website to work.  Most everybody's premiums have skyrocketed and many people are losing their plans as a result of the law despite Obama's consistent promise people could keep their company plans if they liked them.   Other peeople are losing their jobs or being reduced to part time as a result of the law.   
Free healthcare isn't a right.  The main reason you work is to pay for your healthcare costs and your food and shelter.  You are basically sayig people have the right to other people's money which seems like a violation of private property rights and wealth redistribution.  You cry about the commi label  but then you advocate Karl Marx.

Poor people are already eligible for numerous government programs to help them that we have paid for with our taxes.  We are overtaxed, so if the poor are not being supported with our tax dollars that is on the politicians who are throwing it at the special interest groups like unions to secure their votes.  Obama's admin has thrown millions of dollars at solar power compnanuies who have since gone bankrupt because that isn't a profitable market.  We are subsidizing corporate failures yet you claim we haven't paid taxes to support the poor.  lol

Nothing stops you and other leftwingers from paying more taxes if you think the government deserves more money.  Pretty sure you don't do that and in fact you look for tax breaks and take them to save as much money as possible.  So you are hypocrite on the tax issue.

You are justing trying to make abortion issue about anything other than the abortion issue.  Is it life. Should we terminate life simply because it is an inconvenience for the parents?    All you are doing is trying to rationalize abortin but the solution to problems is not kill babies if they are alive.  Civilized peoples understand this concept. 

Boom.   I Am  Legend.

Sorry, I'm not a factory worker. Never have been. I was a small business owner for 20 years. I had to quit because certain idiots on wall street and in investment firms destroyed the new house market and I was suddenly without work. But that's okay, at least I was born.

P.S. I was a lousy businessman. I did great work, but I hated charging people money for what I did. I felt sorry for them. Even the billionaires I worked for. So at least my commie attitude benefitted some. I charged folks, sure, but never as much as my competition. Not that I and much. I was too good.

And I did my own taxes, and I was too scared to take too many tax breaks. I could have done better, I'm sure. But when Bush was president, especially, I didn't know how many other stupid asses were in government and I just didn't take any chances.

You should know that the story about Obamacare causing people to loose their insurance is false. Well, I sort of have to depend on news sources for that report, as do you, and hence we have no idea which is true. But at least there is a possibility that it is false. The lady who went on Fox and said she was loosing her health insurance later admitted she got a better deal through Obamacare. But for some reason Fox hasn't reported that, from what I understand. I wouldn't know. I have never figured out how to watch TV and puke at the same time, so I never turn on Fox. Also, I've only owned a TV three months of my adult life and I almost died of boredom. So I am even less inclined to watch useless stuff than the average person.

Anyway, my issue with the right and abortion is this. The right seems to think that each and every single person in this country has the opportunity to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, and if they don't, tough. That's their choice. We'll ignore little debilitating factors, like poverty, crime, abuse, crap-assed educations (thanks for serving as an example of that, by the way) and other problems that are really hard to overcome tend to stand in the way of success. Toss in a system that has failure built into it specifically so that the economy will always have a plentiful supply of low-wage workers, and things just plain suck.

Now the anti-abortion people I know seem to think that every single woman who gets an abortion simply considers the procedure a form of birth control. However, that is not the case. Yes, I'm sure some women are a bit to cavalier about the whole thing, but many an abortion come about because the mother-to-be can't figure out any way to afford the expense of a child. And if you're thinking she should have just stayed away from sex, that would further confirm that you don't have any idea what it is like to be human. For some women, they are already living amidst poverty, and they feel they have no choice. In other cases, the women are not yet impoverished, but they know they will be if they have a child.

Welfare only pays out for two years, maximum. I think that's accurate. It might be three. Granted, you hate that, you think it should be a lot longer, but some dorky Democrat stopped welfare from being a lifetime benefit and pretty much shut down the system. Clinton was his name, I think. Anyway, toss in the Republican deciding that food stamps were paying out too much and cutting them back, and an economy that hasn't yet bounced back (blame Obama all you want, we might disagree about that, but I'm sure we both agree that it is a great thing that wonderful people like Romney are buying out American companies and shipping the factories overseas so that they can make goods for less and hence profit more. Which I think is wonderful. Within a decade or two there won't be a single job left in this country and then we'll all get to sit around in the sun and wonder what it would be like to go shopping at WalMart or one of those other high end stores that are kept behind barbed wire fences in those foreign investment compounds) But at least nobody will ever have an abortion again, because women won't even be able to afford that. Progress comes in many forms.

If you honestly are against abortion (I would be if it were a realistic expectation), what do you think we can do for the various disadvantaged people on this planet who feel, when confronted with an unwanted pregnancy) that abortion is at least a possible option? How do we fix it so that a 14 year old minority girl who has been raised in the slums of some huge city and who has tried to do well in school but has been raped by her drunk mom's boyfriend can decide, wisely, to not have an abortion? How do we fix it so that when a ten year old girl gets pregnant thanks to her dad, choices can be made that satisfy everyone. Should we become like Nicaragua, where a woman cannot even have an abortion to save her own life? Should we start executing women who have abortions?

Life sucks for some people. Sometimes it is their own fault. Drugs, alcohol, etc. can do that to a person. Sometimes it is the fault of others, and the mother-to-be has had little, if any, say in her life. In other cases the women have little if any hope of ever getting out of poverty. The deck is way to stacked against them. And there you sit, all judgy looking, declaring that doesn't matter. But it does.

Fix it dude. You and your conservative brethren get together and figure out ways to make it possible for a pregnant woman to have choices, rather than no choice. Figure out a way to understand that poverty and hopelessness and despair are not outcomes only encountered by guys like you when you find out how good your ex-wife's lawyer is after she finds out about your mistress. Others have to live under wretched conditions their whole lives, because the people with power and money don't give a rats ass about anything in those peoples sorry lives. Except for their uteruses.

There is no consistency in your stand. You are expressing a black and white opinion, and seem unable to empathize with any set of conditions that might cause a woman to make such a decision. You don't differentiate between the careless party girl who doesn't give a rats ass about anything, babies included, and the woman living in rural West Virginia whose husband just got paralyzed in a mine accident and she already have five kids. You are just making blanket statements, patting yourself on the back for making a moral judgment call, and allowing yourself to wallow in your pride while others are suffering endlessly.

By the way, I Am Legend was a suck-ass movie. Next time you should say "Boom! Chitty-Chitty Bang Bang". It would give you some class.

Oh, and your civilized societies thingy? Virtually all the other civilized societies in the world offer universal health care. Have you any idea how many fewer women would have abortions if they knew that all health care costs were taken care of? You don't care. You want to eat your cake and have it to. And you damned sure don't want anyone else having cake. That's your frickin' cake. Damned moochers!

And how dare they do something you don't like when you go to all that trouble to hate their guts! (I'm basing that on the amount of spittle you got on your keyboard when you typed the words "blue collar".)



Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on November 07, 2013, 02:49:43 AM
PP,

For the millionth time "lose" not "loose". You write "loose" for "lose" one more time, I'll smite you. It bothers me that my uneducated self can spell better than you and I'm on a phone that doesn't recognize actual words.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Anfauglir on November 07, 2013, 03:05:47 AM
if people sayh abortion is ok why would they go adoption route.

I'll ask it again.  DrTesla, how many children have you personally adopted?

Second question: if adoption is such a universal panacea for unwanted children, why are there any children currently in orphanages or foster care?

How many of the former slaves did your great grandparents  give shelter and food to when they were freed back in the 1860's?    If none, does that mean we shouldn't have banned slavery?

Good try at a dodge - but the point is that YOU, NOW are opposing abortion and saying "adoption is a vaiable alternative for all those potential children".

Presumably you have adopted none - so who ARE these people who are going to do all the adopting?  Orphanages are not closing down left, right and centre, foster carers are still being cried out for....so where ARE these people who are ready and willing to adopt? 

Answer - they don't exist.  There are not enough people who want to adopt to take the children in care NOW.  You want to add significantly to that number.  So talk me through it - how exactly does adoption work as an alternative to abortion?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Anfauglir on November 07, 2013, 03:13:15 AM
I will not apologize for loving babies.

I'll ask it again.  DrTesla, how many children have you personally adopted?

You love babies.  Why aren't you adopting?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on November 07, 2013, 10:13:40 AM
PP,

For the millionth time "lose" not "loose". You write "loose" for "lose" one more time, I'll smite you. It bothers me that my uneducated self can spell better than you and I'm on a phone that doesn't recognize actual words.

-Nam

I'm trying real hard to come up with a snarky reply while simultaneously admitting that somewhere along the line, probably in an English class where I always barely got C's, I missed the distinction between those two words. Or I forgot. You have my wholehearted permission to smite me the next time I do this, but I plan on cheating. I'm going to have a six year old check my spelling and word usage.

Here, I'm gonna test myself. Lose.

Got it.

I'd thank you profusely but I don't want to damage your street cred.  ;)

Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: epidemic on November 07, 2013, 10:28:31 AM
PP,

For the millionth time "lose" not "loose". You write "loose" for "lose" one more time, I'll smite you. It bothers me that my uneducated self can spell better than you and I'm on a phone that doesn't recognize actual words.

-Nam

I'm trying real hard to come up with a snarky reply while simultaneously admitting that somewhere along the line, probably in an English class where I always barely got C's, I missed the distinction between those two words. Or I forgot. You have my wholehearted permission to smite me the next time I do this, but I plan on cheating. I'm going to have a six year old check my spelling and word usage.

Here, I'm gonna test myself. Lose.

Got it.

I'd thank you profusely but I don't want to damage your street cred.  ;)

I vote that congress pass a law that words should be spelled phonetically,  all foreign derrivations that change a words from american english phonetic rules will now be changed.  No more fillette Mignon  fillay minyon.

lose is not and forever to be spelled Luze
Loose can remain loose or you could even drop the e.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on November 07, 2013, 10:36:35 AM
We've got several of the most contrary kind of theists on the boards right now, and we're talking about smiting over grammar and/or spelling?  :(
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: MadBunny on November 07, 2013, 11:16:40 AM
Apparently so.

I was just curious to see where he[1] draws the line.  Everybody has a line they draw.

Myself, for example I draw the line electively at the point where the fetus can easily survive outside of the mothers body, and is no longer a parasitic organism.  Others, draw the line at natural birth, still others at earliest medically supported viability, four to five months or so (A mistake in my opinion).  Some, I suspect would like to draw the line at 214 months.

In my own case, if the life of the mother is in any of danger, then I am perfectly comfortable all the way with removing it all the way up to the point of actual birth.  The life and health of a fully born human will always in my opinion outweigh that of a potential human.

In the US, at least in theory, the person who is having the operation is supposed to be the person making the final decision.  In my experience that isn't always the smartest person in the room, but that's the way it is.  The real truth is that there are a lot of people who make noise about reducing abortions, but when viewed through the lens of logic; their actions don't actually do that.

If the anti-choice people were truly serious about their crusade to 'save every embryo' then we'd be seeing real attempts at reduction of the need for abortion in the first place.  Generally speaking that doesn't happen, which leads me to think it's a religious issue not based on critical thinking.
 1. it is a he, right?  For some reason all the hardline anti-choice types are usually guys.  Funny that.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Astreja on November 07, 2013, 11:23:33 AM
If the anti-choice people were truly serious about their crusade to 'save every embryo' then we'd be seeing real attempts at reduction of the need for abortion in the first place.  Generally speaking that doesn't happen, which leads me to think it's a religious issue not based on critical thinking.

That's My take on it, too.  It's an easy issue to misrepresent and strawman, and it's primarily an appeal to emotion.  Why are they wasting precious time picketing clinics when they could be working on the socioeconomic issues that would save those precious proto-tots?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on November 07, 2013, 11:34:21 AM
Pointing it out tends to shock them silent or make them sputter. It still stuns me how many people I talk to (mostly early 20's college students lately) that have never thought about the lack of attention they pay to pushing for better solutions BEFORE a pregnancy occurs, or why adoptions aren't skyrocketing to "save the babies". At least with the discussions I'm finding myself in now, they stop to think about it once it's pointed out to them. I tend to think of it as influencing the newest generation of voters.  ;)  'Round about 30 or so it seems that most opponents can't even hear me.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on November 07, 2013, 11:40:34 AM
http://miscarriage.about.com/od/riskfactors/a/miscarriage-statistics.htm


Most doctors agree that seeing a fetal heartbeat on ultrasound means the risk of miscarriage is much lower. Confirmation of a fetal heartbeat means that the baby has passed the initial stages of development wherein the majority of first trimester miscarriages occur.

It's hard to pick a specific number for the risk of miscarriage at this point. Some cite numbers like a 4-5% risk of miscarriage at this point, but studies show a widely varying risk based on individual factors. The one thing that's safe to say, however, is that seeing the baby's heartbeat is a good sign. It means the baby is growing as it should be, and there's little reason to be concerned at this point.

Unfortunately, there is one exception to this rule. A slow fetal heart rate (less than 100 beats per minute) may signal an impending miscarriage, though this isn't true in 100% of cases.

The majority of miscarriages occur in the first trimester.

Over 80% of miscarriages occur before 12 weeks, so the chances look good for a healthy baby once you've finished the first trimester. Again, many individual factors are in play, but if 15-20% of pregnancies end in miscarriage and 80% of miscarriages occur in the first trimester, a safe estimate would be that in the general population the risk of pregnancy loss after 12 weeks is 3-4%. After 20 weeks, when a loss would be termed a stillbirth rather than a miscarriage, the risk is around 1 in 160.

What does that have to do with anything about the overall rate of pregnancy loss? Did you even read what you cut and pasted?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: screwtape on November 07, 2013, 12:05:05 PM
I will not apologize for loving babies.   

Perhaps you could instead apologize for being such a troll?  Or maybe apologize for you endless refusal to support your opinions with facts and data? 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on November 07, 2013, 06:08:54 PM
I was going to write this last week, and then Dr.T-for-troll disappeared. Now that he is apparently back, here goes.

We used to have a visitor who was, shall we say,  a very opinionated Catholic woman. She said that sexual acts should only happen between two legally married people "open to the possibility of procreation" or something to that effect. Even straight married hetero sex-- unless it ended up with sperm heading towards an egg-- was a sin. So no oral, manual or back-door fun. Unless the people could not manage it any other way because of old age or disability or something. Then it was okay-- some kind of geezer-wheelchair-show willing-godly loophole or something.[1]

She was against all abortion, of course. She did not care if the fetus had no brain development or heart at 3 months. She did not care if the fetus was formed by rape or incest. She did not care if the pregnancy was inside of a 12 year old mentally handicapped child. She did not care if an operation was medically needed to remove a fetus that had died, or to preserve the woman's chances of having a baby in the future. Of course, she did not care even if the abortion would save the woman's life. Once sperm meets egg, the woman disappears and becomes a transport vehicle for her uterus contents.

As a result of this woman's posts, I stopped sending my yearly donation check to Planned Parenthood. :?


Wait for it...... 8)


Instead, I signed up for them to take a larger amount each month directly from my bank account. This puts more money into their private donations fund to pay for low-income women's abortion services, since by law they are not allowed to use any government health care funds for that.

The next time I read anything ignorant, uncaring, unsubstantiated and stupid about women's reproduction here, I promise to increase that monthly amount. Dr.T-for-troll, you have been served. Boom chika wow wow. ;D
 1. I swear the Catholic god is a big fat sex-obsessed perv, watching people from heaven with ginormous binoculars and a huge clipboard: "Hey! Get that outta yer mouth! Oh, he's paralyzed? Well, I guess that's okay then. Giving it the old college try-- good on ya!...But wait just a me-damn minnint, yer both of youse boys! Back away from that wheelchair right now!" Catholic god talks like NJ governor Chris Christie.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jonathan MS Pearce on November 08, 2013, 03:59:48 AM
To touch on a previous point (and excuse me if this has been mentioned in the long thread of posts) but there is a disconnect with believers who are against abortion by point of fact that God has designed life in such a way that most fertilised eggs/embryos are spontaneously aborted naturally. Most of these are unbeknownst to the carrier.

What this means is that God has ultimate responsibility for literally BILLIONS of aborted foetuses over time.

Or in another way, God loves abortion.

http://www.skepticink.com/tippling/2012/09/29/god-loves-abortion/
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Mrjason on November 08, 2013, 09:05:20 AM
We've got several of the most contrary kind of theists on the boards right now, and we're talking about smiting over grammar and/or spelling?  :(

We know that DrT is probably a POE and defiantly a bigot who is unlikely to change or even defend his opinion.

On the other hand, the talk about grammar/spelling actually elicited a reasonable response which was a more profitable discussion for all concerned.

There has to be some refuge for sanity and civility in the sea of madness...
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on November 08, 2013, 11:03:59 AM
To touch on a previous point (and excuse me if this has been mentioned in the long thread of posts) but there is a disconnect with believers who are against abortion by point of fact that God has designed life in such a way that most fertilised eggs/embryos are spontaneously aborted naturally. Most of these are unbeknownst to the carrier.

What this means is that God has ultimate responsibility for literally BILLIONS of aborted foetuses over time.

Or in another way, God loves abortion.

http://www.skepticink.com/tippling/2012/09/29/god-loves-abortion/

The 75% spontaneous abortion rate seems very high-- I have read 25%. But any fetus that does not make it to birth can be laid directly at god's pearly gated door. Even elective abortion on demand by the stereotypical irresponsible drunken teenage party slut.[1] Nothing happens if god does not will it, right? How can a drunken slut circumvent an all powerful god?

That's what I told Dr. T.  Instead of addressing the point about miscarriages being godly abortions, he flipped out and put the quote into his sig. So now even more people will be able to read it and think about it.... :?
 1. Who should be forced to have babies because she will make the absolutely best possible mom! :P
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Mrjason on November 08, 2013, 11:10:39 AM
^^^^

the 75% figure might take into consideration the % of fertilized eggs that fail to implant[1] as well as spontaneous abortion of postimplantation fetus'

 1. http://publish.uwo.ca/~kennedyt/t108.pdf (http://publish.uwo.ca/~kennedyt/t108.pdf)
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on November 08, 2013, 12:26:30 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The 'every foetus should live' crowd is, by concentrating on the already fertilized eggs, is ignoring the billions of unfertilized eggs that get flushed away every month. If life is so important that the health, mental or physical or social or familial situation, or even the age, of every woman on the planet is frickin' irrelevant, then every other woman who is not pregnant but could be is also guilty of depriving a child of life. Mrs. Duggar has proven that a below average woman can still whip out 20+ kids in a lifetime. The pro-lifers need to insist that all women capable of being pregnant, otherwise healthy or not, start doing their part for the unborn by having as many children as possible. After all, it is carrying a child to term that is that important, no any other aspect of life is, whatsoever.

People who insist that ten year old incest victims and women who will die if they try carrying their child to term have no choice, then by their logic no other woman should have a choice either. Each and every female on the planet who can be pregnant should be pregnant. That is the logical extension of the argument abortion goes put forth. Especially the most adamant of them.

And if they can say that such a stance is ridiculous, then they should be able to see that their arbitrarily drawing of the line, which is one that hurts the already living beyond reason, is just as ridiculous.

edit: made horrible english slightly less scary
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jaimehlers on November 08, 2013, 12:31:21 PM
I don't think even the most rabid anti-abortion activist actually considers sperm and unfertilized eggs to be human beings,.  So claiming that they should care about it in order to have a solid position in opposition to abortion comes perilously close to a strawman.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on November 08, 2013, 12:40:51 PM
^^ The ones who cite "potential" to grow up as being the thing to be preserved have no reason to draw the line as late as conception.  They are being inconsistent if they do so.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jaimehlers on November 08, 2013, 12:46:22 PM
My point is that if they aren't trying to argue that, then saying that they should comes very close to being a strawman, because you're presenting a position that you say they should be defending and attacking them for being 'inconsistent' when they don't defend it.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jdawg70 on November 08, 2013, 01:18:12 PM
As I'm wont to do, I'm throwing out a blog link that is tangentially related to the discussions at hand...but Libby Anne's How I Lost Faith in the “Pro-Life” Movement has quite a bit of good data and information:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/10/how-i-lost-faith-in-the-pro-life-movement.html

It is basically an outline of how she went from a "pro-life" stance to a "pro-choice" stance[1].

It was the posts regarding spontaneous abortions that made me think of this.
 1. Note that I'm the one using those labels, not her.  Use of those labels may not be entirely accurate in describing her point of view (then and now).
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on November 08, 2013, 02:09:11 PM
My point is that if they aren't trying to argue that, then saying that they should comes very close to being a strawman, because you're presenting a position that you say they should be defending and attacking them for being 'inconsistent' when they don't defend it.

It is very commonly a component of their position.  It's even part of your own, if I recall correctly.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: wright on November 08, 2013, 04:03:14 PM
As I'm wont to do, I'm throwing out a blog link that is tangentially related to the discussions at hand...but Libby Anne's How I Lost Faith in the “Pro-Life” Movement has quite a bit of good data and information:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/10/how-i-lost-faith-in-the-pro-life-movement.html

It is basically an outline of how she went from a "pro-life" stance to a "pro-choice" stance[1].

It was the posts regarding spontaneous abortions that made me think of this.
 1. Note that I'm the one using those labels, not her.  Use of those labels may not be entirely accurate in describing her point of view (then and now).

Very interesting; thanks for the link. It'll make a good reference for future arguments of this sort.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jaimehlers on November 08, 2013, 04:24:30 PM
It is very commonly a component of their position.  It's even part of your own, if I recall correctly.
You mean referring to the potential to grow up?  Sorry, doesn't fly.

An infant has the potential to grow into an adult human[1].  So what if someone claimed that, in order for your position to be consistent, you should be okay with parents having the legal right to choose to kill their own infants and children, would you not consider that a strawman argument?

That's exactly the same thing you, and anyone else who uses the argument, are doing by arguing that anti-abortion proponents should seek to protect even sperm and egg cells in order to be fully consistent with what you say their position should be.  And that's why I'm speaking out against it.  There are far better arguments to use against anti-abortion proponents than such a blatant strawman.
 1. since, after all, not all infants survive to adulthood
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on November 08, 2013, 04:28:27 PM
You mean referring to the potential to grow up?  Sorry, doesn't fly.

I agree, that "potential" reasoning doesn't fly.  PP's post is a good illustration of why.

An infant has the potential to grow into an adult human[1].  So what if someone claimed that, in order for your position to be consistent, you should be okay with parents having the legal right to choose to kill their own infants and children, would you not consider that a strawman argument?
 1. since, after all, not all infants survive to adulthood

If I was citing their potential to grow up as the key to their being granted moral value, then that might be a valid criticism.  That's more akin to a pro-lifer's position, however.  And to your own, if I recall correctly...mind correcting me on that point, in case I don't?

Also, the "potential" argument cites the presence of a potential to one day be a born human being as granting some form of personhood; not that the potential to not grow up means that such personhood is ruled out.

These things only come up when one cites "potential" to support one's argument in the first place.  You've done that, as I recall.  Clarify?

That's exactly the same thing you, and anyone else who uses the argument, are doing by arguing that anti-abortion proponents should seek to protect even sperm and egg cells in order to be fully consistent with what you say their position should be.  And that's why I'm speaking out against it.  There are far better arguments to use against anti-abortion proponents than such a blatant strawman.

It's not a strawman if they actually believe that "potential" is worth protecting on its own.  You didn't really turn it around on me, Jaime.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on November 08, 2013, 06:01:24 PM
I am of the opinion that if abortion is allowed in cases of rape or incest, "pro-lifers"  have already lost the moral battle. You don't even need to include sperm and unfertilized eggs.  It's okay to "kill innocent babies" depending on how they were made? But we can't take into account the simple question of whether or not the woman wants to be pregnant or should be pregnant?

In the real world,  all kinds of people have sex, even people who should never become parents. Nearly everyone has sex at some point in their lives and some of this sex will result in pregnancy. Most people will start having sex long before they are able to care for a child. Babies are a lot of work to raise and not everyone is capable of that. Some people have fertility problems and can't have kids when they want to.

Real world solutions? Detailed sex ed from pre-puberty onwards; lots of low cost and easily available contraception; medically safe abortion when contraception does not work out, and lots of social and monetary support for all parents (including those who adopt) and children.

In a fantasy world, everyone--male and female-- stays completely celibate until they are financially and emotionally ready to have a child. Around age 30-35. Many people therefore never have sex. Ever. There is no rape or incest. Nobody ever gets drunk or high at a party and does something stupid and sexual.

All children are planned, wanted and cared for well by whoever produces them. There is no need for contraception or abortion because everyone is celibate unless they are ready to be parents. And no sex ed is needed in middle or high schools because nobody younger than 35 is having sex.....

Nobody has a baby to trap a partner or to move out of the parent's home. Nobody ever gets a divorce, or is abandoned by their partner after pregnancy occurs. And no pregnancy ever leads to health problems of any kind. No parent ever gets a mental illness, a chronic disease or dies before their child becomes a self-supporting adult.

^^^I don't think this scenario has ever happened anywhere on the planet. Correct me if I am wrong. &)

Bottom line: Unwanted pregnancy, regardless of how the pregnancy got started, is the reason for most abortions. Contraception use reduces unwanted pregnancy and therefore reduces the need for abortions. Banning abortion does not reduce unwanted pregnancies. It may not even reduce abortion that much, only make it more shady, more dangerous and more of a shameful secret due to its criminal nature. The fetuses will still die. Along with women and girls.[1]

If people want fewer abortions, they should do everything possible to reduce unwanted pregnancies. That is the only rational policy-- and every country that has tried it has better outcomes than policies based on the fantasy world scenario.
 1. It is quite shocking how so may anti-legal abortion arguments start with the idea that all life is precious, but come down to making women suffer for getting pregnant and not wanting the baby.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: wright on November 08, 2013, 06:24:36 PM
If people want fewer abortions, they should do everything possible to reduce unwanted pregnancies. That is the only rational policy-- and every country that has tried it has better outcomes than policies based on the fantasy world scenario.

Yes a thousand times. Which, as you point out, shows up the anti-choice crowd's claim that they're all about "protecting the unborn" as a hollow lie[1]. What they want to do is punish women (and the male partners who support them) who are faced with an unwanted pregnancy.
 1. While I suppose some pro-lifers might actually believe that, I find it difficult to buy that their leaders and organizers are that ignorant.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jaimehlers on November 08, 2013, 06:59:45 PM
I agree, that "potential" reasoning doesn't fly.  PP's post is a good illustration of why.
Either you misconstrued what I was saying, or you misunderstood it.  Neither is helpful to the discussion, so I'll clarify what I'm actually trying to get across shortly.

Quote from: Azdgari
If I was citing their potential to grow up as the key to their being granted moral value, then that might be a valid criticism.  That's more akin to a pro-lifer's position, however.  And to your own, if I recall correctly...mind correcting me on that point, in case I don't?

Also, the "potential" argument cites the presence of a potential to one day be a born human being as granting some form of personhood; not that the potential to not grow up means that such personhood is ruled out.

These things only come up when one cites "potential" to support one's argument in the first place.  You've done that, as I recall.  Clarify?
The point I'm trying to bring up isn't about my personal position regarding abortions.  My argument here, in this thread, is that trying to claim that a person using the 'potential' argument should therefore seek to have every possible egg cell fertilized is ultimately a strawman.  It is a misrepresentation of their actual position, based on what you think they should mean by it rather than what they actually do mean, and that makes it a strawman.

More to the point, using it will not help your case and might very well weaken it.  It certainly will not help you accomplish your goal of getting through to people with whom you disagree.  Someone versed in fallacies will recognize it; someone not versed in them will still at least recognize that your argument is not addressing what they're actually saying.

Quote from: Azdgari
It's not a strawman if they actually believe that "potential" is worth protecting on its own.  You didn't really turn it around on me, Jaime.
I'm not trying to turn it around on you.  I'm trying to help you see that your argument is flawed.  Using a flawed argument doesn't help your case and it might backfire on you.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: shnozzola on November 08, 2013, 08:59:04 PM
I made a statement earlier in this thread  (in bold, below)
Quote
   Remember, I am pro-choice.  Guys, I understand the view you have of the clump of cells.  But in my mind, the potential of those only human cells - not chicken, not fish, not plant, not fruit fly cells - are what sets the cells apart.  We all draw the line somewhere.  I guess under cross examination by the lawyer, my view would force me to admit to the jury that abortion at that stage is murder.  In that light I am more emotional than logical.  Your view allows you to not admit that abortion at that stage is murder.  But all these are our own views, our own decisions, the way it should be.

Adzgari rightly jumped me.

Quote
Now you are calling everyone who disagrees with you a liar.
Quote
Is that the emotional origin of your "you're a murderer, women" accusation?

I certainly did not intend to say everyone who disagrees with me is a liar, or every women a murderer.   After I read your accusations, Adzgari, I told myself to drop the thread and keep my mouth shut.  The abortion debate is never-ending.  Silly me, I'm not that smart.  With the debate about where we draw the line, I just need to say -  I, me, for myself, think it is at conception - not at the twinkle in an eye stage, sperm or egg stage, and not at 1st, 2nd, 3rd trimester, or when the fetus is viable, or when the baby is born.  I've thought about it for a long time, where and why to draw the line for myself, and that is what I have decided.

That individual view should mean nothing to anyone else.  The issue of abortion  is too important to have someone else demand what happens.  We all know why we, as pro-choice advocates, get angry at the pro-lifers trying to legislate a women's right to choose.   Why should it then be correct to ask that I change where I draw the line?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on November 08, 2013, 09:33:19 PM
^^^I understand where you are coming from, and I like the fact that you realize that your personal feelings have no weight on what other people do about having or not having an abortion.

I just saw a homeless young 20-something white woman in the park near my local library. She was hanging out with a few scruffy-looking white guys and a black woman all about her same age.[1]She had on dirty pink and white bunny ears over her stringy, greasy hair. She looked like she hadn't bathed in a long time. Her winter coat would not button because she was about 5-6 months pregnant, her belly clearly beginning to push out of her non-maternity clothes.  She is not able to care for herself very well, dealing with whatever issues have her living outside in the park as winter approaches. She does not have much of a support system, probably can't hold a job and very likely has drug, drinking and/other health problems.

She is also clearly having unprotected sex--maybe as a way to earn money. Or perhaps she was assaulted by one of the homeless men. My personal feeling is that she should have had an abortion as soon as she knew she was pregnant. I would even be tempted to say she should still have an abortion, even this late in the process. If I was queen of the world, she would get a tubal ligation along with the abortion.

Because this young woman should under no circumstances be trying to care for a baby. The baby will, if lucky, end up going straight from that woman's body into emergency foster care and adoption. If unlucky, the woman will refuse to give up the newborn and will take it out of the emergency room where she gave birth.  The child will end up seriously neglected, abused or abandoned. If it survives all that, it will then end up as an older, not as cute, less-adoptable child with serious emotional problems,  in foster care or a state facility. By the time the kid is a tough, angry, mentally disturbed 12 year old, she will not be adopted. She will run away from foster homes.  And she will be on her way to having a life like just her mother's. Drugs and prostitution. If male, add in gangs and jail as a real possibility.

But just like you, shnozzola my personal feelings have no bearing on what she has decided to do. And I am willing to pay for the safety net that is no doubt going to have to catch her child at some point in the near future..... :(
 1. There were a LOT of homeless folks near the park tonight. More than the usual down-and-out-looking older white guy contingent.  I wonder if today is the day they get some sort of benefit from the social service center across the street.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: MadBunny on November 08, 2013, 11:08:56 PM
At some point we're all ok with killing in one form or another.

I happen to think that killing a 'potential human'[1] that cannot survive on it's own is acceptable.  For that matter, there are grown adults that I'm perfectly happy admitting the world and human race is better off without.

Most of us, if we're being honest can probably come up with at least half a dozen specific sets of circumstances where we would be comfortable with the idea of ending a life, let alone a 'potential human'.

 1. I swear that phrase always makes me think  gom jabbar.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: screwtape on November 08, 2013, 11:39:16 PM
...trying to claim that a person using the 'potential' argument should therefore seek to have every possible egg cell fertilized is ultimately a strawman. 

It's not.  Taking their rationale to the absurd, logical conclusion is a valid method of showing a flaw in thought and reason.

It is a misrepresentation of their actual position, based on what you think they should mean by it rather than what they actually do mean, and that makes it a strawman.

I understand what you are saying, but it's not.  It is showing that they have made an argument for their position, but that they arbitrarily apply that argument when it suits them, and if they were to actually follow that argument, they would end up in an absurd place.  We do this all the time with theists.   

They say, "they bible says X"
We say, "yes, it does.  but the bible also says horrible things Y and Z.  So, the bible is no basis."

Or they say something like "demons cause cancer"
We might ask why they draw the line at cancer and not every other ailment? 

They might say blah blah blah, objective morals.
I might say, why not objective table manners?

These are all taking their ideas to their logical conclusions to illustrate the point that their ideas are flawed.  Az, I and others have pointed out that "potential life" is a stupid argument because "potential" can mean a lot of other things - ova, sperm, cloning, etc.  That is not a strawman argument.  "Potential" is not thought through.  It is an undeveloped argument.   If "potential" then why not ova, sperm or blood cells for cloning?  What is the distinction?  The approach we have used is a rhetorical way of bringing this up.  So far, it has been answered with... what? 



Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jaimehlers on November 09, 2013, 12:47:08 AM
It's not.  Taking their rationale to the absurd, logical conclusion is a valid method of showing a flaw in thought and reason.
And in some cases that works.

Quote from: screwtape
I understand what you are saying, but it's not.  It is showing that they have made an argument for their position, but that they arbitrarily apply that argument when it suits them, and if they were to actually follow that argument, they would end up in an absurd place.  We do this all the time with theists.   

They say, "they bible says X"
We say, "yes, it does.  but the bible also says horrible things Y and Z.  So, the bible is no basis."
Granted, but it's a different situation, because that kind of Bible believer actually does try to argue that the Bible is the literal Word of God, so arbitrarily applying parts of the Bible (but not other parts) is hypocrisy on their part.   I suppose it's possible that there are anti-abortion proponents who actually would argue that all human life (right down to sperm and egg cells) is sacred/should be protected, and this argument would be totally valid against them.  And on the opposite end, ignoring babies after they're born (aside from recommending adoption, which is not really a solution).

Quote from: screwtape
Or they say something like "demons cause cancer"
We might ask why they draw the line at cancer and not every other ailment? 

They might say blah blah blah, objective morals.
I might say, why not objective table manners?
Both of which are fairly absurd arguments anyway.

Quote from: screwtape
These are all taking their ideas to their logical conclusions to illustrate the point that their ideas are flawed.  Az, I and others have pointed out that "potential life" is a stupid argument because "potential" can mean a lot of other things - ova, sperm, cloning, etc.  That is not a strawman argument.  "Potential" is not thought through.  It is an undeveloped argument.   If "potential" then why not ova, sperm or blood cells for cloning?  What is the distinction?  The approach we have used is a rhetorical way of bringing this up.  So far, it has been answered with... what?
An argument I've used in the past is that once conception and implantation happens, then barring some complication that causes an embryo to die, it'll ultimately be born, so that should be taken into account when deciding whether to have an abortion.  Of course, there are other things that need to be taken into account.  Unlike the personhood nuts and other anti-abortion types, I don't try to say that the fetus is the only important concern.  It's too complicated for the simplistic solutions that they try to advocate, too, as real life tends to be.  And that's why I consider myself pro-choice.

Now, if there are people who do try to claim that the 'potential' argument should have ultimate precedence, then I could see this kind of rhetoric working.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on November 09, 2013, 01:14:44 AM
Or they say something like "demons cause cancer"
We might ask why they draw the line at cancer and not every other ailment? 

Now they are saying sin causes genetic mutations, and thus aging XD.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on November 09, 2013, 01:28:02 AM
Just coming on to say this, Jaime, as it's the only contribution I can make that Screw hasn't already addressed...

Quote
I suppose it's possible that there are anti-abortion proponents who actually would argue that all human life (right down to sperm and egg cells) is sacred/should be protected, and this argument would be totally valid against them.

Those who say that potential/future human life is sacred/should be protected are saying that sperm and egg cells are sacred/should be protected - it is a logical consequence of that position, one they probably don't even realize.  Pointing that out is the entire point of the line of argument you object to.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jonathan MS Pearce on November 09, 2013, 05:57:40 AM
Quote
The ones who cite "potential" to grow up as being the thing to be preserved have no reason to draw the line as late as conception.  They are being inconsistent if they do so.

Sorry to paste another link, but this reminded me of an awesome post one of my contributors made, mainly against apologist JT Wartick. Schueler is an evolutionary molecular biologist and he approached personhood in a biological manner. What is the biological difference between entities at fertilisation etc which brings about claims of personhood?

Well worth reading.

http://www.skepticink.com/tippling/2012/11/14/life-starts-at-conception-but-what-about-personhood/
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: zvuv on November 10, 2013, 09:58:36 PM
Apropos women using abortion as birth control:

Women are wired with strong maternal instincts  and an abortion is usually emotionally wrenching, often leading to a lifetime of guilt.  Abortions are a major operation involving the removal of a significant amount of tissue ( a fetus ) with the risk of bleeding and infection.  And invasive?  I have difficulty submitting to  a colonoscopy.

Sure it's her "choice"  to have sex  and to have an abortion in the sense that she usually can physically avoid both,  but in practice women often come under considerable pressure to have sex and without protection.   Men don't like to wear condoms. I don't.   Husbands are known to insist on unprotected sex  and teenage girls are often desperate to keep a boy.  To dismiss these women and say that they made their choice and have to live with the consequences  seems cruel and heartless.

And of course women get raped far more often than is reported.  There is the matter of birth defects of course and a woman may start a pregnancy with a partner and later find that she will have to raise the child on her own.

Men make the same mistakes but rarely bear the consequences. It's much easier emotionally for a man to walk away and many do, many more than mothers who abandon their babies.   They even shirk their responsibilities to children who have been born.  Honestly,  I don't know if I fathered a child in my youth  and I never cared to find out.  I slept with women, too often without protection, and forgot about them as many young men do.   It doesn't bother me much now either unless I make myself think about it and dwell on the possible consequences of  what I did.  I  don't suffer the anguish of a woman  who has "killed her baby"  as many women do feel.

Few of us are wise all the time, especially when it comes to love and sex  but women can suffer serious consequences while men escape their mistakes with little pain.   Surely women deserve sympathy and support  rather than being told something like  "Yeah?  Well you fucked him.  Now spread your legs and bleed!"
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: screwtape on November 10, 2013, 10:11:12 PM
Women are wired with strong maternal instincts  and an abortion is usually emotionally wrenching, often leading to a lifetime of guilt.

ipse dixit.  References?

Abortions are a major operation involving the removal of a significant amount of tissue ( a fetus ) with the risk of bleeding and infection. 

Not all of them  What do you consider a "significant amount of tissue"?  At 20 weeks, before which the overwhelming majority of abortions are performed, a fetus is just more than 1/2 pound and about 6.6" long.[1]  If it were a tumor, it would be considered large. But the procedure carries far less risk than, well, any other surgery this side of a root canal.

And invasive?  I have difficulty submitting to  a colonoscopy.

Your problems are not the issue.  If done soon enough, a drug may be used to cause spontaneous miscarriage.  Not invasive at all.

 1. http://www.babycenter.com/6_your-pregnancy-20-weeks_1109.bc (http://www.babycenter.com/6_your-pregnancy-20-weeks_1109.bc)
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: MadBunny on November 11, 2013, 02:04:57 AM
Apropos women using abortion as birth control:

I don't have to agree with her.  I only have to agree that it isn't my choice to make.

So long as the choice remains the woman's her reason for choosing an abortion are her own.  She can do it as birth control, she can do it to win a playstation, or because she likes getting abortions.  Perhaps she thinks she auto-sending souls to heaven.

I would prefer, of course that women not do this for various personal reasons, but ultimately I must accept that for people to have the freedom to choose, they must also have the freedom to choose something I disagree with.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: screwtape on November 12, 2013, 12:31:35 PM
26 women share their abortion stories
http://nymag.com/news/features/abortion-stories-2013-11/

Quote
When we got to the clinic, an escort met us at the car and asked if we wanted a bulletproof vest.

Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jaimehlers on November 12, 2013, 12:37:26 PM
Those who say that potential/future human life is sacred/should be protected are saying that sperm and egg cells are sacred/should be protected - it is a logical consequence of that position, one they probably don't even realize.  Pointing that out is the entire point of the line of argument you object to.
Can you give me some examples of people saying this?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on November 12, 2013, 12:42:50 PM
What, that potential/future human life should be protected?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on November 12, 2013, 12:57:05 PM
Quote
Women are wired with strong maternal instincts  and an abortion is usually emotionally wrenching, often leading to a lifetime of guilt. 

Wrong!

Women aren't wired with strong maternal instincts. Biologically women have a lot more at stake when it comes to rearing their offspring, so mothers' bodies produce hormones that make them feel good and bond with their babies, and therefore want to take care of them.  None of that actually happens until birth. At that time her body is flooded with oxytocin.

Mother and woman are not synonyms!

Girls are culturally conditioned to want babies, and to be caretakers in general.[1] Biology doesn't require a desire for motherhood, all it requires is a desire for sex.  As the educational level for women increases in a given country, and access to reliable BC is available, the fertility rates plummet.  When we have a choice you'll see that we choose fewer children.  The numbers of women like me who actively choose to have zero children is greatly increasing in the developed world. 

"Baby fever" is a real feeling, but it's roots are cultural, not biological. There are many men who feel it, and many women who don't.
 1. In many countries a woman's only value is as a mother. Hell, in the U.S. women who choose not to have kids are seen as an aberration and often looked down upon by family, coworkers, and even strangers.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: screwtape on November 13, 2013, 02:37:12 PM
"Baby fever" is a real feeling,

Most women I have known who had it, caught it from a pregnant woman.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on November 13, 2013, 06:22:54 PM
I caught it bad this spring, but it was over baby chickens[1][2] instead of baby humans.
 1. $10 later I had a carrier holding three darling little peepers who've now grown into lovely young pullets that lay me delicious eggs.
 2. This was not as irresponsible as it might sound. I've kept chickens for the better part of a decade, although this was my first time raising them from chicks. While it was a rather spur of the moment decision it was done with more rationality than squee, but still lots of squee.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jaimehlers on November 13, 2013, 06:41:43 PM
What, that potential/future human life should be protected?
Basically.  I don't mean in terms of an actual fetus, but something more along the lines of the "personhood" crowd.  I do know they exist, but I don't know that much about them.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on November 13, 2013, 06:54:40 PM
I don't have a collection of posts handy, I just know that it comes up a lot when arguing this subject, as an objection to abortion.  And though I don't feel like digging through thousands of posts, I do firmly remember that you yourself brought up "potential to grow into a human being" as being the critical factor in granting moral worth to a neonate in a discussion between the two of us on the topic way back.  Does my memory fool me?  I've asked this twice already in this thread, in different forms...
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on November 13, 2013, 08:26:23 PM
Quote
Women are wired with strong maternal instincts  and an abortion is usually emotionally wrenching, often leading to a lifetime of guilt. 

Wrong!

Women aren't wired with strong maternal instincts. Biologically women have a lot more at stake when it comes to rearing their offspring, so mothers' bodies produce hormones that make them feel good and bond with their babies, and therefore want to take care of them.  None of that actually happens until birth. At that time her body is flooded with oxytocin.

Mother and woman are not synonyms!

Girls are culturally conditioned to want babies, and to be caretakers in general.[1] Biology doesn't require a desire for motherhood, all it requires is a desire for sex.  As the educational level for women increases in a given country, and access to reliable BC is available, the fertility rates plummet.  When we have a choice you'll see that we choose fewer children.  The numbers of women like me who actively choose to have zero children is greatly increasing in the developed world. 

"Baby fever" is a real feeling, but it's roots are cultural, not biological. There are many men who feel it, and many women who don't.
 1. In many countries a woman's only value is as a mother. Hell, in the U.S. women who choose not to have kids are seen as an aberration and often looked down upon by family, coworkers, and even strangers.

I agree-- so much is cultural. And it is hard to say how "guilty" or "wrenching" the abortion experience will be to a woman without looking at the social environment. A woman raised around people who say having a 10 week abortion is the exact same thing as beating a 6 month old child to death is probably going to feel a lot more guilt. She might attend a religious support program that lays on more guilt, and later join an anti-abortion group to make speeches about how awful she feels about her abortion.

None of the women I have known (who had abortions) discussed feeling especially guilty, except to wish their lives had not been messed up to the point where they were having random unprotected sex, necessitating the abortion. The abortion was an unpleasant but needed solution, not a problem. They knew that they were not ready to deal with pregnancy or motherhood and did not have the support of family, etc.

Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Shaffy on November 13, 2013, 09:08:52 PM
I believe a woman should have the choice to abort a baby if she feels like she would not be able to support it or it would not be safe to deliver. What do you guys think? I am very new to the topic due to my young age.
-Shaffy ;D
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on November 14, 2013, 02:43:57 AM
Or for that matter, women who unfortunately get raped.

I mean...what sick bastard would allow a raped woman to give birth?

Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on November 14, 2013, 09:08:20 AM
Quote
I mean...what sick bastard would allow a raped woman to give birth?

Allow??  I hope you just used the incorrect word here, because it sounds and awful lot like you're advocating forcing a woman to get an abortion if she's raped.  If a raped woman wants to keep the child it's her business.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on November 14, 2013, 11:05:30 AM
I believe a woman should have the choice to abort a baby if she feels like she would not be able to support it or it would not be safe to deliver. What do you guys think? I am very new to the topic due to my young age.
-Shaffy ;D

I haven't seen how old you are.  You'll want to be cautious of word choice in the future.  A woman who aborts isn't aborting a baby. A baby is a stage of life after birth; prior to that it's a fetus, embryo, or zygote depending on developmental stage. Most abortions are done quite early on, usually at the zygote stage.

Why do you think abortion should be restricted to just those who feel they can't support the child?  As Jag stated earlier in the thread, and I'm paraphrasing here, abortion isn't an alternative to parenting; it's an alternative to pregnancy.

I urge you to give that some serious thought.  Do some research on just what happens to a woman's body during pregnancy and childbirth. Imagine if it were your body those things would happen to. You who would feel the fatigue, gain the weight, go through the morning sickness, decreased bladder capacity, stretching, swelling, and the constipation.  All topped off with hours of painful labor, which might involve the cutting of your genitals lest they tear.[1]  You could still die too. It's not as common as it used to be, but women still do die while giving birth, and it's not something you can test for. Add to all this that it costs money. Even if you're insured you pay a copay for each doctor visit, you pay part of the cost of the birth itself. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/01/health/american-way-of-birth-costliest-in-the-world.html?pagewanted=all (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/01/health/american-way-of-birth-costliest-in-the-world.html?pagewanted=all).  But wait, there's more! How many people over the months of doctor visits and the delivery will need to poke, prod, and look at your genitals? It’s unpleasant enough for those who want to do it in order to have a baby, how horrible for someone who doesn’t want it at all!

Can you think of any situation where your body, and potentially your life, can legally be used against your will solely for the benefit of another person? 

One unit of blood taken from your body by the Red Cross can be used to save the lives of three people.  Three people who are as alive as you, who have families, hopes, dreams, fears, and responsibilities. Yet what is giving blood in comparison to even a healthy pregnancy? It takes one hour of your day, the needle pinches a bit, you sit still for a while, eat a snack, then go on with your life, plus it costs no more than your time and the gas it takes to get there.[2] Even though it's proven to save lives, you'll never be forced to do it, because only you have the right to your body or any part of it.

A zygote may be alive, but it has as many hopes, dreams, fears, and memories as your blood cells. It's not a person, yet people advocate forcing women to go through much, much more than a simple blood draw to save its life.

Put yourself in my situation. I’m 32, financially stable and in a healthy, happy relationship. Using your stipulations above I should not be allowed an abortion should my birth control fail and I find myself pregnant.  I’ve known since I was younger than you probably are now that I do not want a child.  I also believe that with 7 BILLION people on this planet that it is unethical to bring even a single unwanted child into being.

So, should I be forced to carry a pregnancy when I find the physical aspects of it abhorrent and the end result (an unwanted child) is something I’m ethically opposed to doing?  Imagine the social backlash I would face for putting up for adoption this child I'm perfectly capable of caring for. What if my husband wants to keep it and I don't? He doesn't want kids either, and would never try to force me to carry a pregnancy, but I doubt he'd be cool with adopting out his child once it's born.  If my husband agrees with me to adopt it out, he'll then face social backlash too. What if one of our parents or siblings wants to adopt the child? Do we say no, let it go to strangers, and endure their disappointment or anger? Do we let them, then face the child as it grows up and finds out the truth of its birth?  I could also die giving birth, then my husband would be stuck with a kid we never wanted whose birth cost him his wife.

There are many, many reasons why a woman might not want to continue a pregnancy. Even something as seemingly simple as not wanting a child is really not simple at all.
 1. This is all common in even healthy pregnancies, not all go quite so well either.
 2. After donating blood you're not made responsible for the well being of these people for the next 18 years either.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on November 14, 2013, 01:37:41 PM
Or for that matter, women who unfortunately get raped.

I mean...what sick bastard would allow a raped woman to give birth?



You don't live in a Republican state, do you?

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jaimehlers on November 14, 2013, 02:43:10 PM
I don't have a collection of posts handy, I just know that it comes up a lot when arguing this subject, as an objection to abortion.  And though I don't feel like digging through thousands of posts, I do firmly remember that you yourself brought up "potential to grow into a human being" as being the critical factor in granting moral worth to a neonate in a discussion between the two of us on the topic way back.  Does my memory fool me?  I've asked this twice already in this thread, in different forms...
No, I did not bring up anything as the critical factor in terms of abortion.  I said it (potential) was a factor, and one that shouldn't be disregarded, but that isn't the same thing as presenting it as the key deciding factor.  That's because I don't think any one thing can or should be considered the critical factor when it comes to abortion.  What seems like an important factor to me might not be to someone else, so who am I to try to dictate what the critical factor is?

I refrained from answering before because you have very strong feelings on this subject - stronger than mine, though not by much - and I didn't want to sidetrack things earlier by getting into an argument.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on November 14, 2013, 02:50:18 PM
I know enough not to go down that path of passionate argument with you on this topic right now, Jaime.

But on-topic, no matter how much weight one gives to that "potential" - key or not - the same reasoning applies regarding sperm and egg vs fertilized egg.  Potential exists in both cases.  And I know your reasoning is that without intervention, a fertilized egg will reach maturity.  But that's simply counter-factual:  Without the intervention of the mother-to-be, a fertilized egg will definitely die.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jaimehlers on November 14, 2013, 03:30:17 PM
But on-topic, no matter how much weight one gives to that "potential" - key or not - the same reasoning applies regarding sperm and egg vs fertilized egg.  Potential exists in both cases.
You can certainly argue that a sperm and egg cell have potential, but it simply isn't the same thing as with a fertilized egg, never mind an embryo or a baby.  For example, for every sperm cell that successfully implants an egg cell, millions upon millions fail and die.  Never mind the far greater number of sperm cells that don't get the chance to in the first place.  The biological reality is that almost all sperm cells are simply fated to die without ever accomplishing anything meaningful.

So no, the same reasoning doesn't apply, and certainly not in the way you're trying to imply.  When virtually all sperm cells are inevitably fated to die, trying to use their 'potential' as justification to 'protect' them fails miserably.  The same doesn't apply to egg cells, of course, but the fact of the matter is that an egg cell can't fertilize itself.  It's own fate is no different than a sperm cell's, unless there are sperm cells present to change that.  And even then, there's a high chance that something will go wrong.

Quote from: Azdgari
And I know your reasoning is that without intervention, a fertilized egg will reach maturity.  But that's simply counter-factual:  Without the intervention of the mother-to-be, a fertilized egg will definitely die.
When a woman ovulates, her uterus prepares itself for the implantation of a fertilized egg.  The 'intervention' you talk about happens automatically.  It's true that not all fertilized eggs successfully implant themselves, but it isn't for lack of a place to do so.  So this is simply a bad argument.

Taking the 'potential' argument to extremes might work with someone who's never really thought about it.  I'll give you that much, at least.  But to someone who's seriously considered it and its ramifications, it's simply not effective as an argument, because they've probably already accounted for the points you're trying to bring up, and if they haven't, they have enough of a framework to fit them into.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on November 14, 2013, 03:48:11 PM
You can certainly argue that a sperm and egg cell have potential, but it simply isn't the same thing as with a fertilized egg, never mind an embryo or a baby.  For example, for every sperm cell that successfully implants an egg cell, millions upon millions fail and die.  Never mind the far greater number of sperm cells that don't get the chance to in the first place.  The biological reality is that almost all sperm cells are simply fated to die without ever accomplishing anything meaningful.

So no, the same reasoning doesn't apply, and certainly not in the way you're trying to imply.  When virtually all sperm cells are inevitably fated to die, trying to use their 'potential' as justification to 'protect' them fails miserably.  The same doesn't apply to egg cells, of course, but the fact of the matter is that an egg cell can't fertilize itself.  It's own fate is no different than a sperm cell's, unless there are sperm cells present to change that.  And even then, there's a high chance that something will go wrong.

The potential lies not with a particular sperm or egg, but with the male and female set of reproductive material collectively.  With human intervention, these cells have the potential to form a new human being.  Disagree?

When a woman ovulates, her uterus prepares itself for the implantation of a fertilized egg.  The 'intervention' you talk about happens automatically.  It's true that not all fertilized eggs successfully implant themselves, but it isn't for lack of a place to do so.  So this is simply a bad argument.

So because the woman's body automatically intervenes, her deciding to stop her body from doing that intervention is morally wrong.  That's messed up on soooo many levels, especially if we apply it to other contexts.

The point, which you didn't address, is that the woman's body must intervene to develop the neonate throughout its gestation.  Without her intervention, it certainly will not automatically reach maturity.  This is actually a very solid argument against the particular point I'd raised it against, which was the idea that a fertilized egg will, without outside intervention, reach maturity.  Instead, it requires outside intervention at every point.

Taking the 'potential' argument to extremes might work with someone who's never really thought about it.

Seems to me that the 'potential' argument is only ever put forth by someone who's never really thought about it.

I'll give you that much, at least.  But to someone who's seriously considered it and its ramifications, it's simply not effective as an argument, because they've probably already accounted for the points you're trying to bring up, and if they haven't, they have enough of a framework to fit them into.

Ipse dixit.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jaimehlers on November 14, 2013, 04:09:04 PM
The potential lies not with a particular sperm or egg, but with the male and female set of reproductive material collectively.  With human intervention, these cells have the potential to form a new human being.  Disagree?
Why would I disagree?  However, that doesn't mean I think it's necessary or wise to force that intervention onto anyone.  Potential doesn't override actual, although you should take it into account, just the same as the future doesn't override the present even though you should take the future into account.

Quote from: Azdgari
So because the woman's body automatically intervenes, her deciding to stop her body from doing that intervention is morally wrong.  That's messed up on soooo many levels, especially if we apply it to other contexts.
And when did I ever say that it was morally wrong?  When you address an argument at what you assume I'm talking about, instead of taking the time to make sure of what I'm talking about, it comes across very much like a strawman, whatever you intend.

Quote from: Azdgari
The point, which you didn't address, is that the woman's body must intervene to develop the neonate throughout its gestation.  Without her intervention, it certainly will not automatically reach maturity.  This is actually a very solid argument against the particular point I'd raised it against, which was the idea that a fertilized egg will, without outside intervention, reach maturity.  Instead, it requires outside intervention at every point.
Except that this 'intervention' happens automatically as part of the process of pregnancy.  So, again, trying to argue that a neonate requires intervention in order to survive...doesn't really work that well as an argument.  And, for that matter, a human being requires outside 'intervention' at every point in order to survive for more than a few days.  Without water or food, which necessarily have to come from outside the body, death is certain within a few days.  But if that food and water are available, they can survive a very long time.  Naturally, it isn't quite the same thing, but it's reasonably close.

Quote from: Azdgari
Seems to me that the 'potential' argument is only ever put forth by someone who's never really thought about it.
This is the reason I refrained from answering earlier - because the way you're arguing is more than a little insulting.  You seem to have the idea in your head that anyone who uses this argument, which you disagree with, cannot have thought it through.  Except I have spent a lot of time thinking about it, so I take exception to the insinuation that I haven't done that.  Especially when that insinuation is based on assumptions in the first place.

I'll give you that much, at least.  But to someone who's seriously considered it and its ramifications, it's simply not effective as an argument, because they've probably already accounted for the points you're trying to bring up, and if they haven't, they have enough of a framework to fit them into.

Quote from: Azdgari
Ipse dixit.
Incorrect.  This time, read what I wrote instead of digging yourself in deeper with flawed assumptions.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on November 14, 2013, 05:02:23 PM
Why would I disagree?  However, that doesn't mean I think it's necessary or wise to force that intervention onto anyone.  Potential doesn't override actual, although you should take it into account, just the same as the future doesn't override the present even though you should take the future into account.

I know you're pro-choice, Jaime.  Legality is not at issue here.  My point is that potential exists all the way along, and conception is an arbitrary point to pick for when potential "begins".

And when did I ever say that it was morally wrong?  When you address an argument at what you assume I'm talking about, instead of taking the time to make sure of what I'm talking about, it comes across very much like a strawman, whatever you intend.

If it's not morally relevant, then don't bring it up in a moral discussion.

Except that this 'intervention' happens automatically as part of the process of pregnancy.

Not as part of the process of an aborted pregnancy.  Thanks to modern medicine, it's only "automatic" if the woman decides for it to be automatic[1], or if access to that aspect of modern medicine is witheld.

A woman's body does do things she doesn't decide for it to do[2], and that's something she should rationally take into account in her decision-making processes[3].  But should these automatic things her body does really be given any moral weight?  I don't think that they should.

So, again, trying to argue that a neonate requires intervention in order to survive...doesn't really work that well as an argument.  And, for that matter, a human being requires outside 'intervention' at every point in order to survive for more than a few days.  Without water or food, which necessarily have to come from outside the body, death is certain within a few days.  But if that food and water are available, they can survive a very long time.  Naturally, it isn't quite the same thing, but it's reasonably close.

We were discussing potential though, Jaime - the intervention we're talking about is that required to become a human being, not in order to survive at all.  You and I need absolutely no outside intervention in order to become human beings.  We already are that.  Sustinence is something for which we do need the outside world, but we weren't talking about sustinence.

This is the reason I refrained from answering earlier - because the way you're arguing is more than a little insulting.  You seem to have the idea in your head that anyone who uses this argument, which you disagree with, cannot have thought it through.  Except I have spent a lot of time thinking about it, so I take exception to the insinuation that I haven't done that.  Especially when that insinuation is based on assumptions in the first place.

I wondered about whether I should have posted that bit.  Maybe I shouldn't have.  But if you're going to insinuate that I'm deliberately using an argument with flaws to convince people who havn't thought about it, then that's more than a little insulting as well.

Obviously you have put thought into this topic.

I'll give you that much, at least.  But to someone who's seriously considered it and its ramifications, it's simply not effective as an argument, because they've probably already accounted for the points you're trying to bring up, and if they haven't, they have enough of a framework to fit them into.

Quote from: Azdgari
Ipse dixit.
Incorrect.  This time, read what I wrote instead of digging yourself in deeper with flawed assumptions.
 1. Which would make it not automatic.
 2. As do our bodies.
 3. Just as ours should, with us.

I said "ipse dixit" because there was nothing in that paragraph other than your own proclamations.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Shaffy on November 14, 2013, 05:31:49 PM
Or for that matter, women who unfortunately get raped.

I mean...what sick bastard would allow a raped woman to give birth?

Im sorry i did not mean to offend you.I agree with you that if a woman is raped and does not want to have the baby that she can abort it. I was more talking about (early pregnancy/would not be healthy for the woman to have the baby/Cannot support baby) So I do agree with you on your post about rape.
-Shaffy
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Shaffy on November 14, 2013, 06:54:28 PM
I believe a woman should have the choice to abort a baby if she feels like she would not be able to support it or it would not be safe to deliver. What do you guys think? I am very new to the topic due to my young age.
-Shaffy ;D

I haven't seen how old you are.  You'll want to be cautious of word choice in the future.  A woman who aborts isn't aborting a baby. A baby is a stage of life after birth; prior to that it's a fetus, embryo, or zygote depending on developmental stage. Most abortions are done quite early on, usually at the zygote stage.

Why do you think abortion should be restricted to just those who feel they can't support the child?  As Jag stated earlier in the thread, and I'm paraphrasing here, abortion isn't an alternative to parenting; it's an alternative to pregnancy.

I urge you to give that some serious thought.  Do some research on just what happens to a woman's body during pregnancy and childbirth. Imagine if it were your body those things would happen to. You who would feel the fatigue, gain the weight, go through the morning sickness, decreased bladder capacity, stretching, swelling, and the constipation.  All topped off with hours of painful labor, which might involve the cutting of your genitals lest they tear.[1]  You could still die too. It's not as common as it used to be, but women still do die while giving birth, and it's not something you can test for. Add to all this that it costs money. Even if you're insured you pay a copay for each doctor visit, you pay part of the cost of the birth itself. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/01/health/american-way-of-birth-costliest-in-the-world.html?pagewanted=all (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/01/health/american-way-of-birth-costliest-in-the-world.html?pagewanted=all).  But wait, there's more! How many people over the months of doctor visits and the delivery will need to poke, prod, and look at your genitals? It’s unpleasant enough for those who want to do it in order to have a baby, how horrible for someone who doesn’t want it at all!

Can you think of any situation where your body, and potentially your life, can legally be used against your will solely for the benefit of another person? 

One unit of blood taken from your body by the Red Cross can be used to save the lives of three people.  Three people who are as alive as you, who have families, hopes, dreams, fears, and responsibilities. Yet what is giving blood in comparison to even a healthy pregnancy? It takes one hour of your day, the needle pinches a bit, you sit still for a while, eat a snack, then go on with your life, plus it costs no more than your time and the gas it takes to get there.[2] Even though it's proven to save lives, you'll never be forced to do it, because only you have the right to your body or any part of it.

A zygote may be alive, but it has as many hopes, dreams, fears, and memories as your blood cells. It's not a person, yet people advocate forcing women to go through much, much more than a simple blood draw to save its life.

Put yourself in my situation. I’m 32, financially stable and in a healthy, happy relationship. Using your stipulations above I should not be allowed an abortion should my birth control fail and I find myself pregnant.  I’ve known since I was younger than you probably are now that I do not want a child.  I also believe that with 7 BILLION people on this planet that it is unethical to bring even a single unwanted child into being.

So, should I be forced to carry a pregnancy when I find the physical aspects of it abhorrent and the end result (an unwanted child) is something I’m ethically opposed to doing?  Imagine the social backlash I would face for putting up for adoption this child I'm perfectly capable of caring for. What if my husband wants to keep it and I don't? He doesn't want kids either, and would never try to force me to carry a pregnancy, but I doubt he'd be cool with adopting out his child once it's born.  If my husband agrees with me to adopt it out, he'll then face social backlash too. What if one of our parents or siblings wants to adopt the child? Do we say no, let it go to strangers, and endure their disappointment or anger? Do we let them, then face the child as it grows up and finds out the truth of its birth?  I could also die giving birth, then my husband would be stuck with a kid we never wanted whose birth cost him his wife.

There are many, many reasons why a woman might not want to continue a pregnancy. Even something as seemingly simple as not wanting a child is really not simple at all.
 1. This is all common in even healthy pregnancies, not all go quite so well either.
 2. After donating blood you're not made responsible for the well being of these people for the next 18 years either.
I appreciate you clarifying the issue and I now better understand the range of issues and the strong feelings various people feel about abortion. I will try to learn more about such issues before I comment on such hotly contentested issues.
-Shaffy
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on November 14, 2013, 07:15:33 PM
^^^It's okay to ask questions, it's a very good way to learn. But yes, this particular topic can be volatile.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on November 15, 2013, 01:30:32 AM
^^^It's okay to ask questions, it's a very good way to learn. But yes, this particular topic can be volatile.

Any topic on this website can be volatile.

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on November 15, 2013, 01:58:42 AM
Im sorry i did not mean to offend you.

Offend me?

Nah, you didn't do that, it takes a lot to do that.

Allow??  I hope you just used the incorrect word here, because it sounds and awful lot like you're advocating forcing a woman to get an abortion if she's raped.  If a raped woman wants to keep the child it's her business.

I agree that i did not word that correctly...I meant.
Quote
What sick bastard would force a raped woman to give birth.

You don't live in a Republican state, do you?

;)

-Nam

I live in Australia, we allow abortion here.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on November 15, 2013, 02:10:22 AM
We allow abortion here, too. But Republicans pass laws that are unconstitutional to disregard the Constitution. They preach all the time how they are for the Constitution, and they are, the one from 1776 which is the world they want to live in where only white men vote, women know their place, 12 year old girls give birth, blacks are slaves, other minorities are oppressed, the rich stay rich, the poor stay poor and die from working 18 hr shifts for 15¢ an hour, and always in debt to the people they work for. Educational system is taught by local Christian churches, and only certain people get to go, if they are the right kind of Christian, or convert. Taxes are only paid by the poor, who can't afford to pay them because they only make 15¢ an hour, and already in debted to their employees. Oh, duels will be back, and everyone, including children, will be permitted, by law, to carry a gun wherever they go. This is the Republican party of today, and any traitors will be hung.

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Shaffy on November 15, 2013, 07:29:19 AM
Im sorry i did not mean to offend you.

Offend me?

Nah, you didn't do that, it takes a lot to do that.

Allow??  I hope you just used the incorrect word here, because it sounds and awful lot like you're advocating forcing a woman to get an abortion if she's raped.  If a raped woman wants to keep the child it's her business.

I agree that i did not word that correctly...I meant.
Quote
What sick bastard would force a raped woman to give birth.

You don't live in a Republican state, do you?

;)

-Nam

I live in Australia, we allow abortion here.

Ok :D
-Shaffy
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on November 15, 2013, 10:07:27 AM
: |
Did you just quote my entire message? 9_6

*Protip, modify messages to save space*

PS, not to be a bother, but what do you think of this? http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25627.0.html
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on November 15, 2013, 11:04:15 AM
: |
Did you just quote my entire message? 9_6

*Protip, modify messages to save space*

There are more polite ways to advise a new poster how to make tidier posts. Especially since you know this guy is a middle schooler, what's that 12-13 year old? It's pretty obvious he doesn't have much, if any, experience on a message board.

Protip: Don't be a jerk.

Quote
PS, not to be a bother, but what do you think of this? http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25627.0.html

What does this have to do with the thread we're in?  If you want him to take part in that thread PM him.

Protip: Don't clutter up the rest of the board with advertisements to join your pet[1] thread.


edited to fix quote tags.
 1. Pet as in you're devoting special attention to it, not that I'm equating tulpas with pets.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Shaffy on November 15, 2013, 11:25:14 AM


There are more polite ways to advise a new poster how to make tidier posts. Especially since you know this guy is a middle schooler, what's that 12-13 year old? It's pretty obvious he doesn't have much, if any, experience on a message board.

Protip: Don't be a jerk.



Thank you Wasserbuffel. This is my first time using a forum\message board site. I am also 13 but that is still not an excuse for me making my posts *tidier*. I will try to work on that. Did I make it more tidy in this post?
-Shaffy


Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on November 15, 2013, 11:31:33 AM
Being 13 and having just a few days' experience on a message board is about the best excuse there is for not having a great handle on the quoting function.

Let's move over to the Testing Area (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25849.new.html#new) to explore quoting further so we don't disrupt the abortion thread.  :)
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on November 15, 2013, 12:36:20 PM
Protip: Don't be a jerk.

;|

There is this new invention, its called "Informing, while it is not polite in this case, it sure as hell aint being a jerk.
If i reaaaaaaaally wanted to be a jerk i would have said something more like "Expunged.....radda radda, retracted".

What does this have to do with the thread we're in?  If you want him to take part in that thread PM him.

Absolutely nothing, which is what you are about to become!
...Sorry, i had to quote that movie...

Protip: Don't clutter up the rest of the board with advertisements to join your pet[1] thread.
 1. Pet as in you're devoting special attention to it, not that I'm equating tulpas with pets.

Ehh...okay...i do admit advertising is lame...
*Also...Alexis is kinnnnnnnnnnnnnda like a pet...although...that sounds harsh...*
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Shaffy on November 15, 2013, 12:44:52 PM
Being 13 and having just a few days' experience on a message board is about the best excuse there is for not having a great handle on the quoting function.

Let's move over to the Testing Area (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25849.new.html#new) to explore quoting further so we don't disrupt the abortion thread.  :)

Good idea ;)
-Shaffy
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: screwtape on November 15, 2013, 11:22:53 PM
So no, the same reasoning doesn't apply, and certainly not in the way you're trying to imply.

It does apply, on both counts.  You are simply drawing an arbitrary line and saying "here is where potential counts."  If there is a logic or rationale behind it, you've not laid it out or elaborated.

When virtually all sperm cells are inevitably fated to die, trying to use their 'potential' as justification to 'protect' them fails miserably.  The same doesn't apply to egg cells, of course,

Of course?  Why of course?  Why the double standard?  Why does that apply to sperm but not egg?  Nor to fertilized egg?  You've given no argument, only a proclamation.  Ipse dixit, as Az said.

Taking the 'potential' argument to extremes might work with someone who's never really thought about it.  I'll give you that much, at least.  But to someone who's seriously considered it and its ramifications, it's simply not effective as an argument, because they've probably already accounted for the points you're trying to bring up, and if they haven't, they have enough of a framework to fit them into.

None of this is an actual counter-argument.  It is so much hand waving, and nothing else. 
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jaimehlers on November 16, 2013, 12:10:31 AM
I know you're pro-choice, Jaime.  Legality is not at issue here.  My point is that potential exists all the way along, and conception is an arbitrary point to pick for when potential "begins".
No matter what point you pick, there's going to be at least some arbitrariness.  So what matters is whether the basis of the argument is sound, not how 'arbitrary' it is.  And I've already conceded that potential isn't the primary moral factor, just one that shouldn't be ignored.

Quote from: Azdgari
If it's not morally relevant, then don't bring it up in a moral discussion.
This is another assumption, and it isn't helping.  When you make assumptions - no matter what they are - and proceed as if those assumptions are valid without checking them, it causes more harm than good.  To put it very simply, I said nothing at all about the morality of a woman deciding to have an abortion.  You are the one who assumed I must be talking about that, and brought it up as if I'd said it was morally wrong for her to do that, when all I actually said was that a woman's body automatically intervenes to keep an implanted neonate alive.  And before you say again that I shouldn't have brought that up - why?  Why does the biological reality of the situation have no place in a moral discussion?

Quote from: Azdgari
Not as part of the process of an aborted pregnancy.  Thanks to modern medicine, it's only "automatic" if the woman decides for it to be automatic[1], or if access to that aspect of modern medicine is witheld.
 1. Which would make it not automatic.
Which is irrelevant.  The biological process is still automatic.  What modern medicine does is allow it to be stopped.

Quote from: Azdgari
A woman's body does do things she doesn't decide for it to do[2], and that's something she should rationally take into account in her decision-making processes[3].  But should these automatic things her body does really be given any moral weight?  I don't think that they should.
 2. As do our bodies.
 3. Just as ours should, with us.
And what if a woman who is pregnant does in fact give moral weight to the neonate's life?  It's all well and good for you to say that the state of being pregnant shouldn't be given any moral weight, or for me to say that it should.  But it really isn't either of our decisions, is it?  Being pro-choice isn't just about women having the right to decide whether to have an abortion or not.  It's also about them having the right to decide whether it's moral to have an abortion.  And if a woman decides not to have an abortion because she sees the neonate as her future child, or if she decides to have an abortion because she sees the neonate as an unwanted lump of tissue...who has the right to tell her she's wrong, in either case?

Quote from: Azdgari
We were discussing potential though, Jaime - the intervention we're talking about is that required to become a human being, not in order to survive at all.  You and I need absolutely no outside intervention in order to become human beings.  We already are that.  Sustinence is something for which we do need the outside world, but we weren't talking about sustinence.
Personally, I find the difference between a neonate needing sustenance to become a human being, and a person needing sustenance in order to remain a human being, to be more than a bit trivial.  The only meaningful difference is that a neonate cannot make moral decisions, which is why we talk about a woman having an abortion, instead of a neonate deciding to be aborted.

Quote from: Azdgari
I wondered about whether I should have posted that bit.  Maybe I shouldn't have.  But if you're going to insinuate that I'm deliberately using an argument with flaws to convince people who havn't thought about it, then that's more than a little insulting as well.
I did not intend to say that you were deliberately using that argument.  It's tricky saying things right on the Internet.  I was just about to type something else, and caught that it would have implied exactly the same thing as I just got done saying I didn't intend.  It's difficult to put emotions into words sometimes.  Suffice it to say that my emotions are telling me one thing, and my intelligence is telling me another.

Quote from: Azdgari
Obviously you have put thought into this topic.
I appreciate you saying that.

Quote from: Azdgari
I said "ipse dixit" because there was nothing in that paragraph other than your own proclamations.
Just because you consider an argument effective, doesn't mean it's always going to be effective.  That was the point I was trying to get across.  You can't use the same argument against everyone who disagrees with you and expect it to be equally effective.  A person who's already considered the argument that you're trying to bring up is going to have counterarguments against it, so it will be far less effective against them (if it is effective at all).  That's why I objected to your dismissal of my statement as being ipse dixit.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jaimehlers on November 16, 2013, 12:26:56 AM
It does apply, on both counts.  You are simply drawing an arbitrary line and saying "here is where potential counts."  If there is a logic or rationale behind it, you've not laid it out or elaborated.
What makes you think that I'm applying some arbitrary line and saying, "before this point, potential does not exist, and after this point, it's paramount"?  Is it so difficult to understand that I realize that potential exists on both sides of the line I chose to draw, but it isn't some static value that stays the same?  If you push a rock up a hill, it is going to have much less potential energy near the bottom than near the top, and so it goes with human reproduction.  I'm not talking about something like, "oh, well, this sperm cell might grow up to become another Einstein".  That just gets silly.  I'm talking about realized potential - not just talking about pushing the rock up the hill, but actually doing it.  As you push a rock up a hill, it gains more and more potential energy, and once you push it far enough, it makes better sense to keep going.

I suppose I can see why you had so much trouble understanding.  I was thinking of it like potential energy, but a lot of people really do see it as "the next Einstein" or whatever.  I've seen that before, but it didn't really register.  I have a tendency sometimes to see something and come to totally different conclusions about it, but to not recognize that what I came up with is that much different than what other people came up with.  So your post wasn't worthless like I said it was.  I apologize for that, and I'll give you a plus to make up for my earlier smite when I get the chance.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on November 16, 2013, 12:41:19 AM
... To put it very simply, I said nothing at all about the morality of a woman deciding to have an abortion.  You are the one who assumed I must be talking about that, and brought it up as if I'd said it was morally wrong for her to do that, when all I actually said was that a woman's body automatically intervenes to keep an implanted neonate alive. ...

If you do not in fact believe abortion to be a moral negative then I have been tilting at windmills, and have no argument with you.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jaimehlers on November 16, 2013, 12:45:15 AM
If you do not in fact believe abortion to be a moral negative then I have been tilting at windmills, and have no argument with you.
See my post to screwtape just now.  Between the two of you, I got a better understanding of how I'm thinking on this.

I do consider abortion to be a moral concern, but it's neither a moral positive or a moral negative.  It's...how to put this...it's a decision that can only be made by a moral agent, and that should only be made by the moral agents directly involved in it.  Does that make sense?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on November 16, 2013, 12:48:31 AM
That makes sense.  I have been operating under a misunderstanding of your position, and that misunderstanding has informed all of my posts to you on the topic to date.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jaimehlers on November 16, 2013, 01:11:23 AM
I wasn't all that good at making myself clear.  I have a tendency to do that sometimes, especially when it's something that I think should be clear, or at least reasonably clear.  It always surprises me when that happens, and not in a pleasant way.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Jag on November 16, 2013, 11:44:49 AM
I do consider abortion to be a moral concern, but it's neither a moral positive or a moral negative.  It's...how to put this...it's a decision that can only be made by a moral agent, and that should only be made by the moral agents directly involved in it.  Does that make sense?
I've been struggling with how to articulate this myself. Your posts in this thread have helped me to clarify my thinking and my position on this as well, so thank you for your efforts and for sharing them.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Nam on November 16, 2013, 12:05:51 PM
I wasn't all that good at making myself clear.  I have a tendency to do that sometimes, especially when it's something that I think should be clear, or at least reasonably clear.  It always surprises me when that happens, and not in a pleasant way.

Don't feel bad. Many of us are in the same boat with people.

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on November 16, 2013, 02:39:31 PM
Quicky question that just popped into my head and I didn't want to start a whole new thread on it.

What would have happened to God's plan if Mary had an abortion instead?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: One Above All on November 16, 2013, 03:00:21 PM
A possible counterargument against the OP's argument:
Ah, you see, but aborting a baby[1] would rob it of its free will to follow DA LAWD.
 1. Even if it's just a zygote, to the "Once you're out of the uterus, you're on your own"/pro-death penalty/religitards/et cetera crowd, it's a baby.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on November 16, 2013, 04:22:34 PM
How is it that you can create, in your mind, a distinction between "pro-death" and "pro-choice"? You are still advocating the death of living organisms with "pro choice" are you not? How can you believe that one is morally inferior to the other?

So...one cluster of human cells deserves more rights than the other cluster of human cells?  How does that figure into any definition of equality?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: One Above All on November 16, 2013, 04:26:36 PM
How is it that you can create, in your mind, a distinction between "pro-death" and "pro-choice"? You are still advocating the death of living organisms with "pro choice" are you not? How can you believe that one is morally inferior to the other?

So...one cluster of human cells deserves more rights than the other cluster of human cells?  How does that figure into any definition of equality?

Well, the smaller cluster of cells didn't do anything wrong (yet), so it deserves to live.

NOTE: This is just what I think pro-death penalty people think when they also claim to be pro-life.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jaimehlers on November 16, 2013, 04:57:37 PM
The point is, pro-choice isn't about advocating death.  It's about advocating the right to make moral choices, instead of other people making them for you.

The thing is, a neonate - or whatever you care to call it - is simply not capable of acting as a moral agent.  In a very real sense, it's akin to a person having the right to decide whether an animal that belongs to them should die or not.  How would you feel if someone you didn't even know told you that you don't have the right to decide whether your own pet lives or dies?  The argument isn't just about whether a fetus should live or die, but also whether a woman has the right to make that decision for herself or not - especially since it seriously impacts her own life.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on November 16, 2013, 06:35:03 PM
I don't have a collection of posts handy, I just know that it comes up a lot when arguing this subject, as an objection to abortion.  And though I don't feel like digging through thousands of posts, I do firmly remember that you yourself brought up "potential to grow into a human being" as being the critical factor in granting moral worth to a neonate in a discussion between the two of us on the topic way back.  Does my memory fool me?  I've asked this twice already in this thread, in different forms...

Maybe it was this?

Having the right DNA is a good start. Actively growing, although I know that tumors grow too but I guess the main quality after being human by virtue of DNA and after the mass of cells growing then It would be a matter of potential I guess. There is no way cancer or any type of tumor could ever develop into a human. If left alone or helped along a fetus could and often does develop into a human.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: shnozzola on November 16, 2013, 09:21:54 PM
Mr. Blackwell,
   The decision involving pro-choice is realizing that the woman who is pregnant has a range of life decisions to make that no one can make but her.  IMO, using the term pro-death is sad for and demeaning to the woman no matter what you think about her.   I realize many with the prolife view may feel the woman laughs and jokes every couple months on the way to planned parenthood to have the latest mistake taken care of.  The prolife view reminds me of the way the Taliban hate education and freedoms and demand that humanity follow their narrow minded rules, or face imprisonment or worse.

And the other thing about abortion is, no matter how it has been legislated throughout history or into the future, that woman will ALWAYS do what she feels she must - have a baby and risk death against a doctor's orders at one end of the spectrum, to risking medical problems with a coat hanger or in a back alley with a butcher risking death at the other end of the spectrum, after laws passed to stop her.  How dare pro-life people tell that woman what she will do!   In the end, they cannot - her decision is too important to her.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on November 16, 2013, 09:30:09 PM
The point is, pro-choice isn't about advocating death.  It's about advocating the right to make moral choices, instead of other people making them for you.

Yet, other people constantly create legislation and make laws which limit our moral choices. What makes abortion the holy grail of individual liberty? 

Quote
The thing is, a neonate - or whatever you care to call it - is simply not capable of acting as a moral agent.
 

Many living things enjoy a protected status based on the fact that they cannot act as a moral agent. Why should a neonate have less protection than Sandplain gerardias?

It's not about individual freedom. The neonate is not rare or in danger of extinction. The neonate is more like an invasive species like the kudzu in the south or lionfish in Florida. It's open season on neonate's.

Abortion is a means of population control. It's not about choice...it is a pro death movement disguised as liberty.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jaimehlers on November 16, 2013, 10:22:29 PM
Yet, other people constantly create legislation and make laws which limit our moral choices. What makes abortion the holy grail of individual liberty?
I seriously doubt that it is, at least in the way that you think it is.

Quote from: Mr. Blackwell
Many living things enjoy a protected status based on the fact that they cannot act as a moral agent. Why should a neonate have less protection than Sandplain gerardias?
Perhaps it's because sandplain gerardias is considerably rarer than human neonates?

Quote from: Mr. Blackwell
It's not about individual freedom. The neonate is not rare or in danger of extinction. The neonate is more like an invasive species like the kudzu in the south or lionfish in Florida. It's open season on neonate's.
No, no it isn't.  What you need to understand - I'm serious about this - is that the abortion movement is not about forcing people to have abortions.  It's about making sure that women continue to have the option to decide for themselves whether they want to have an abortion.

Quote from: Mr. Blackwell
Abortion is a means of population control. It's not about choice...it is a pro death movement disguised as liberty.
Frankly, this is more than a little offensive.  Not because it's your opinion, but because it's so plainly wrong.  You are projecting your own opinions on what the pro-choice movement must mean, instead of listening to people who actually know what it actually stands for, and then assuming that your own opinions must be accurate.

Instead of making emotionally-charged accusations based on your own opinions, why not take some time and listen to people who do know what it's about?  Then we can have a reasonable discussion, instead of trying to fend off your accusations (which you don't support with actual facts).
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: MadBunny on November 16, 2013, 10:41:58 PM
It's not about individual freedom.

How do you figure? 

This issue is entirely about individual freedom.
Ride down the slippery slope that leads to claiming that her eggs are sacred and she shouldn't be allowed to endanger them, to the opposite side of the hill that says a woman should be allowed to drown her baby at birth if it's deformed.

Does a woman have the right to decide what happens with her own body?  Not the state, not you, not me, not the sperm contributor.  Just her.
Once you distill down all the arguments, this is what it comes to.

Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on November 16, 2013, 11:36:15 PM
You are still advocating the death of living organisms with "pro choice" are you not?

So does a doctor prescribing antibiotics.  You need to be more specific to avoid saying dumb stuff like this.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on November 17, 2013, 12:49:22 AM
Yet, other people constantly create legislation and make laws which limit our moral choices. What makes abortion the holy grail of individual liberty?
I seriously doubt that it is, at least in the way that you think it is.
The only other constitutionally protected right which is argued for and against as strongly as abortion is owning guns. Ironically, proponents of one right often are against the other...arguments from both sides involving elements of life, death and individual liberty. It may not be your holy grail but some people are certainly willing to kill or die for their moral convictions surrounding abortion.


Quote from: jaimehlers
Quote from: Mr. Blackwell
It's not about individual freedom. The neonate is not rare or in danger of extinction. The neonate is more like an invasive species like the kudzu in the south or lionfish in Florida. It's open season on neonate's.
No, no it isn't.  What you need to understand - I'm serious about this - is that the abortion movement is not about forcing people to have abortions.
I am well aware of that. I would be just as against forcing a woman to have an abortion as I am about banning abortions outright. 

Quote from: jaimehlers
Quote from: Mr. Blackwell
Abortion is a means of population control. It's not about choice...it is a pro death movement disguised as liberty.
Frankly, this is more than a little offensive.  Not because it's your opinion, but because it's so plainly wrong.  You are projecting your own opinions on what the pro-choice movement must mean, instead of listening to people who actually know what it actually stands for, and then assuming that your own opinions must be accurate.

I did not form my opinions in a vacuum. No nation desirous of reducing its growth rate to 1% or less can expect to do so without the widespread use of abortion. This observational study, based on the experience of 116 of the world's largest countries, supports the contention that abortion is essential to any national population growth control effort. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3709011)

While our government (USA) hasn't gone so far as to legislate prohibitive reproduction rights...it supports and encourages voluntary participation. 

Quote from: jaimehlers
Instead of making emotionally-charged accusations based on your own opinions, why not take some time and listen to people who do know what it's about?  Then we can have a reasonable discussion, instead of trying to fend off your accusations (which you don't support with actual facts).

I am not against abortion. I would never call for abortion to become an illegal practice. However, it is a pro death movement. In America it is a method of culling the herd and it is a preferable method because it grants individual choice.

It's not about individual freedom.

How do you figure? 

This issue is entirely about individual freedom.
Ride down the slippery slope that leads to claiming that her eggs are sacred and she shouldn't be allowed to endanger them, to the opposite side of the hill that says a woman should be allowed to drown her baby at birth if it's deformed.

Does a woman have the right to decide what happens with her own body?  Not the state, not you, not me, not the sperm contributor.  Just her.
Once you distill down all the arguments, this is what it comes to.

Boil it down however you like. It's still pro death. Why is that so hard for you to acknowledge?

You are still advocating the death of living organisms with "pro choice" are you not?

So does a doctor prescribing antibiotics.  You need to be more specific to avoid saying dumb stuff like this.

I hope my previous responses in this reply help clarify my position.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on November 17, 2013, 01:03:56 AM
You are still advocating the death of living organisms with "pro choice" are you not?

So does a doctor prescribing antibiotics.  You need to be more specific to avoid saying dumb stuff like this.

I hope my previous responses in this reply help clarify my position.

That has nothing at all to do with what I said.  Just as this:
I did not form my opinions in a vacuum. No nation desirous of reducing its growth rate to 1% or less can expect to do so without the widespread use of abortion. This observational study, based on the experience of 116 of the world's largest countries, supports the contention that abortion is essential to any national population growth control effort. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3709011)

While our government (USA) hasn't gone so far as to legislate prohibitive reproduction rights...it supports and encourages voluntary participation.
...has nothing to do with addressing this:
Quote from: jaimehlers
Frankly, this is more than a little offensive.  Not because it's your opinion, but because it's so plainly wrong.  You are projecting your own opinions on what the pro-choice movement must mean, instead of listening to people who actually know what it actually stands for, and then assuming that your own opinions must be accurate.

Are you trolling on purpose, sir?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: MadBunny on November 17, 2013, 01:04:20 AM
Quote from: Mr Blackwell
Quote from: Madbunny
It's not about individual freedom.

How do you figure? 

This issue is entirely about individual freedom.
Ride down the slippery slope that leads to claiming that her eggs are sacred and she shouldn't be allowed to endanger them, to the opposite side of the hill that says a woman should be allowed to drown her baby at birth if it's deformed.

Does a woman have the right to decide what happens with her own body?  Not the state, not you, not me, not the sperm contributor.  Just her.
Once you distill down all the arguments, this is what it comes to.

Boil it down however you like. It's still pro death. Why is that so hard for you to acknowledge?


It isn't.


At some point we're all ok with killing in one form or another.

I happen to think that killing a 'potential human'[1] that cannot survive on it's own is acceptable.  For that matter, there are grown adults that I'm perfectly happy admitting the world and human race is better off without.

Most of us, if we're being honest can probably come up with at least half a dozen specific sets of circumstances where we would be comfortable with the idea of ending a life, let alone a 'potential human'.
 1. I swear that phrase always makes me think  gom jabbar.

I get that you think it's killing, what I want to know instead is where you draw the line on individual freedom.
Does a woman have the right to decide what happens with her own body?  Not the State, not me, not you, just her.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on November 17, 2013, 01:20:08 AM
I suppose that I should just refrain if someone is going to use phrases like "culling the herd" in discussions about whether women themselves or someone else decides whether she has a baby. Because someone is going to decide.

I was not quite so adamantly pro-choice until I myself was faced with a high-risk pregnancy. An enormous tumor was found inside my uterus alongside the fetus. And the medical people asked if I wanted to continue. I did not have to go to a judge and lay all the details of my personal life before him. I did not have to apply to some review board and hope they agreed with what I and my doctor had decided. I did not have to just face possible death and massive medical expenses with no legal recourse. Because it was my decision to make.

I decided to go forward and try to have the baby. I had already lost one pregnancy and this was going to be our last try. The health problems were going to cause the pregnancy to be pretty intense. But I had a husband who was going to stick by me. I had health insurance and good medical facilities. I had transportation and an apartment. I had an income. I had a network of friends. Lacking any one of those things and I would probably have decided not to try to continue. 

It still turned out to be one of the hardest things I have ever done in my life. I ended up unable to eat anything by mouth, spending several months on TPN. I had several surgeries.  It was painful to walk across the room. I could not work or travel. I was on experimental drugs that kept me awake all night. I had to give myself injections. It was stressful beyond belief. But it was my choice to do it.

My pregnancy experience made me radically pro-choice. I would never ask any other woman to risk her life, health and sanity by remaining pregnant if she does not want to be.

In China the government decides, usually, that the woman will not have the baby. No matter what the woman wanted. In Romania in the 1970's the government decided that, usually, the woman would have the baby. No matter what the woman wanted. In both cases, you could argue that the government had a pro-death policy. In China the fetuses die. In Romania the women died--sometimes after having 12 pregnancies-- along with the fetus.

In an imperfect world where there are definitely enough people it seems absurd to argue that someone other than the pregnant woman herself--the government, a church, a court, someone who really likes babies, whoever,  should be able to decide for her.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on November 17, 2013, 01:23:49 AM
I get that you think it's killing, what I want to know instead is where you draw the line on individual freedom.
Does a woman have the right to decide what happens with her own body?  Not the State, not me, not you, just her.

I know from previous comments that you and I are not too different on this issue. Yes, a woman absolutely has the right to decide what happens with her own body.

But abortion is not about individual freedom. Abortion is about population control. That is the primary reason that it is legal.

Personally I like the idea that, in most modern societies, abortion is an elective procedure. The alternative is a horror show. If the American government ever came to the conclusion that it must force abortion on women in order to facilitate population control...I would take up arms against my government...assuming some bleeding heart liberals haven't taken that right from me by that point.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on November 17, 2013, 02:28:43 AM
You are still advocating the death of living organisms with "pro choice" are you not?

So does a doctor prescribing antibiotics.  You need to be more specific to avoid saying dumb stuff like this.

I hope my previous responses in this reply help clarify my position.

That has nothing at all to do with what I said.  Just as this:
I did not form my opinions in a vacuum. No nation desirous of reducing its growth rate to 1% or less can expect to do so without the widespread use of abortion. This observational study, based on the experience of 116 of the world's largest countries, supports the contention that abortion is essential to any national population growth control effort. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3709011)

While our government (USA) hasn't gone so far as to legislate prohibitive reproduction rights...it supports and encourages voluntary participation.
...has nothing to do with addressing this:
Quote from: jaimehlers
Frankly, this is more than a little offensive.  Not because it's your opinion, but because it's so plainly wrong.  You are projecting your own opinions on what the pro-choice movement must mean, instead of listening to people who actually know what it actually stands for, and then assuming that your own opinions must be accurate.

Are you trolling on purpose, sir?

Can you not understand my position at all? What I mean to say is ... are you really that dense...or are you just being deliberately obtuse?

*looks around* (I know I got a spoon around here somewhere) *FOUND IT!* (Here, let me feed you)

1. My personal beliefs about whether abortion is "right" or "wrong" do not factor into the equation.

2. Abortion is a constitutionally protected right in the U.S. of A.

3. I swore an oath to protect the constitution.

4. I take that oath seriously.

5. My personal belief is that nobody should ever be forced to do something against their will.

6. Who the hell knows what six is?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Azdgari on November 17, 2013, 02:46:53 AM
And that, in turn, has nothing to do with what I said in my last post or what I quoted in my last post.

Are you trolling on purpose, sir?  (I wouldn't be asking this if anything you'd said had related in any way to anything I'd said, and if you hadn't done the same to Jaime)
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on November 17, 2013, 01:51:42 PM
From a rational cost-benefit analysis, I should not have been allowed to go through with my last pregnancy, and should have just been referred to an adoption agency. I am so happy that nobody told me I could not continue my pregnancy even if I wanted to, because it would be too costly and risky. We used a ridiculous amount of medical resources in that one year-- probably more than a woman in China gets in her whole lifetime.

Luckily for us, we don't have a one-child mandate here like they had in China, although rationally, we should. We can have all the kids we want, whether we as a society can feed and house and educate them or not. We are already at replacement with about 2 kids per family, although we still use more of the world's resources than any other country.

We don't--and probably never will, if the response to the limited health care program of  Obamacare is any indication-- have an economic system that says everyone is entitled to food, a job or medical care like they tried to do in China. The concept of doing something you don't want to do for the betterment of the whole society is foreign and even repugnant to us. Obligation to others is as old in China as Confucius. 

I understand the idea that in the US nobody likes being forced to do what they don't want to do. We are very individualistic and independent that way. If our government outlawed all forms of birth control and said we had to have a baby every year, we would revolt and refuse to have children at all. I can hear the libertarians: "Eff the government-- who are those bureaucrats to tell me what to do with my body? I'll die from abstinence before I make 12 babies for the state."

If the government said we could only have one child per family, we would all have 5 kids, just because. I can hear the libertarians: "Eff the government-- who are those bureaucrats to tell me what to do with my body? Don't talk to me about limited resources. I'll make a baby every year if I want to." In the US we only obey big corporations....
 
Abortion can definitely be used to control population. But it is not the best way, since it is more expensive and harder on a woman's body than anything she might use to prevent the pregnancy in the first place. Even with side effects, the pill, the IUD and implants are far less intrusive and risky than using abortion as birth control.

The Soviet Union did not permit many forms of birth control, so women had several abortions--some as many as 10!-- in their lives. I think that having that many abortions was a horrendous thing to go through. It would have to be a rather desperate situation for women to do that. Because clearly, the alternative was either celibacy or to have 10 or more children. At least in China there are many forms of birth control, so abortion is the backup plan for when the other forms don't work. (Or when the woman wants a baby and the government says the country can't afford it.)

Again, we are lucky that we don't have a world government, because the world would have voted our greedy overprivileged a$$es off the island long ago.  :P



Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on November 18, 2013, 10:05:31 AM
If the American government was at all interested in population control one place to start would be with campaigning the people to reduce their family sizes. It could remove child tax credits, making having children even more expensive so people would do less of it. Theoretically.  Both of those things come without the stigma that abortion has, plus express active involvement on the government's part to control population that legalizing abortion in hopes that people limit their fertility that way doesn't.

It's completely absurd to believe the government has any secret population control agenda where abortion is concerned.  Especially since so many representatives are fighting to restrict its availability.

Aside:
I keep seeing the word neonate in this thread in reference to zygotes and fetuses. This is wrong. A neonate is a newborn baby, so unless we're talking infanticide, this term is not appropriate.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on November 18, 2013, 11:50:25 AM
^^^Agreed. Abortion is the least effective method of population control--it is not anyone's optimal choice. What woman would rather have lots of intrusive, painful medical abortions if she could take a daily pill or have an implant instead? Abortion is, in the vast majority of cases, the last resort when other methods were not available, not used or have failed to work.

Urbanization, educating women and providing extensive social services[1] have proven to be the most effective ways of lowering family size.

With the obvious exception of China, the population outlier in every sense, every region that has gotten to replacement has done it without forcing women to have abortions.
 1. so people don't have to rely on large families for survival
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: epidemic on November 18, 2013, 11:52:59 AM
A possible counterargument against the OP's argument:
Ah, you see, but aborting a baby[1] would rob it of its free will to follow DA LAWD.
 1. Even if it's just a zygote, to the "Once you're out of the uterus, you're on your own"/pro-death penalty/religitards/et cetera crowd, it's a baby.

Well religious folks often tell me that suffering felt in 80 years of life is kinda insignificant compared with eternity in heaven.  So I am robbing someone of an insignificant portion of their existience, and insuring that they receive their reward faster.   As for robbing them of free will???  I personally feel as if I do not have free will.  I have concluded that god is imaginary based upon my analysis of the facts.  To believe in him now would simply be to go against my own mind.  It would be fake for me to claim it and virtually impossible for me to change my opinion were I to die in the next few minutes. 

I was born, I saw life and information and made a conclusion, I see little to no chance for free will.  I do not disbelieve in god because I don't like him, I do not believe because I have concluded that any and all gods are false.  I may change my mind given new evidence,  but if I am to be judged on the information i have gleened during my short existence and punished for all eternity for my error in analysis I would prefer that someone had allowed me to skip the life where I made an error which resulted in eternal sufferning.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Mrjason on November 18, 2013, 11:59:14 AM
<snip>With the obvious exception of China...

This is being relaxed http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-24983007 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-24983007)

I don't think it's because of any ethical concerns though, more a realisation that if economic growth is to continue at it's current rate they will need to replace an ageing workforce

edit a bit of context
Quote
The slow of the labor force growth in China is one of the consequences of the one child per couple policy in the 20th century. In addition, this could lead to a fast ageing of the Chinese population during the next 45 years and expected decrease in its working age population
[1]
 1. http://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/32558/ (http://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/32558/)
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: epidemic on November 18, 2013, 12:12:47 PM
The only other constitutionally protected right which is argued for and against as strongly as abortion is owning guns. Ironically, proponents of one right often are against the other...arguments from both sides involving elements of life, death and individual liberty. It may not be your holy grail but some people are certainly willing to kill or die for their moral convictions surrounding abortion.



Interesting point.  Your odds of dying during child birth might be equivalent to your odds of being shot down in a street gang assault on your house.  I am for killing thugs as well as embryos.  But it is funny how the religious right are worried about saving their families from an assault by evil doers, but totally disregard the simple fact that the mother risks her life every time she gives birth and a similar rate.

I say similar rate because we need to really weed out the things that don't apply to the average middle class gun owners risk factors.

Not belonging to a gang, not comitting robberies, not getting into street fights over turf and not walking down dark allys all reduce the chances of murder down to tremendously low levels.  The average CCW holder does not really need a gun ever in their life.

I am not for taking that right away,  I enjoy the right to keep and bear arms but statistically speaking my wife having 4 kids was probably more dangerous than all of my life experiences.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: One Above All on November 18, 2013, 12:19:52 PM
<snip>

Hey, it's a religious argument. Did you expect it to be flawless?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: screwtape on November 18, 2013, 04:32:15 PM
What makes you think that I'm applying some arbitrary line and saying, "before this point, potential does not exist, and after this point, it's paramount"?  Is it so difficult to understand that I realize that potential exists on both sides of the line I chose to draw, but it isn't some static value that stays the same?

It is not hard to understand once you've explained.  If you've elaborated prior to this post, I've missed it. And as such, it just looked like you have simply made assertions, as if they were self evident, and left it at that.

[/quote]I apologize for that, and I'll give you a plus to make up for my earlier smite when I get the chance.
[/quote]

No problem.  In the future,  you needn't worry about making up for karma.  It is just numbers on a computer.

Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on November 18, 2013, 05:33:12 PM
^^^Agreed. Abortion is the least effective method of population control--

But it is essential (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3709011).


It's completely absurd to believe the government has any secret population control agenda where abortion is concerned.  Especially since so many representatives are fighting to restrict its availability.

It's not a secret and our representatives are not always on the same page....much less the same book.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on November 18, 2013, 05:36:45 PM
<snip>With the obvious exception of China...

This is being relaxed http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-24983007 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-24983007)

I don't think it's because of any ethical concerns though, more a realisation that if economic growth is to continue at it's current rate they will need to replace an ageing workforce

edit a bit of context
Quote
The slow of the labor force growth in China is one of the consequences of the one child per couple policy in the 20th century. In addition, this could lead to a fast ageing of the Chinese population during the next 45 years and expected decrease in its working age population
[1]
 1. http://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/32558/ (http://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/32558/)

Chinese population planners always said the one-child program was a temporary measure to slow the growth rate and boost economic expansion. Now that they have made their targets, they can relax the one-child rule. It is hard to blame them for doing something, with over a billion people--three times the population in the same land area as the US. And they knew what famines and the starvation of millions looked like....not pretty.

Abortion was never about US-style ethical or religious concerns, not in a country where looking at the wrong political websites can get you life in prison and embezzlement of public funds can get you the death penalty! The country could not afford more than x new babies per year, so the pregnancies that were not approved of in advance were gotten rid of. Even at 6 months!  :( :'(

Very straightforward. Very rational. Ethics was about not producing babies that the society could not feed, educate and provide a job for. In that sense, the Chinese planners could argue that abortion was far more ethical than having babies that would reduce everyone's living standard.  :P

The preference for sons skewing the population so much is the one factor they did not forsee. Millions of men without wives in the forseeable future. :o
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on November 18, 2013, 05:51:34 PM
I hope you read the article that explained what "abortion is essential to reducing population growth" meant. It did not say that abortion is the best thing to slow growth rates. It said that abortion had to be available to women who wanted fewer children, especially when certain qualifiers were also present. 

The qualifiers included a population with lots of young fertile age women who have a low rate of contraceptive compliance.  That can mean they don't want to get pregnant, but have limited access to reliable methods, or their sex lives are kind of random and they can't plan ahead, or the men they are with won't let them use birth control.

So, I am not sure that "essential" here means what you were implying. Many of the poor countries struggle with keeping abortion-- and contraception-- legal, due to pressure from religious and political groups. Some of these groups are in the US, trying to influence the public health policies of other countries.  (I am sure we would not want China or Russia to try pressuring our government about our population policies or lack thereof.) 

Also, remember that these population control programs are not just into pushing abortion on women. They would much prefer that women who want fewer children use contraceptives.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jaimehlers on November 18, 2013, 06:08:30 PM
The only other constitutionally protected right which is argued for and against as strongly as abortion is owning guns. Ironically, proponents of one right often are against the other...arguments from both sides involving elements of life, death and individual liberty. It may not be your holy grail but some people are certainly willing to kill or die for their moral convictions surrounding abortion.
It isn't my holy grail to begin with.  Though, it is ironic that many people in support of gun ownership tend to be anti-abortion, and vice versa.

Quote from: Mr. Blackwell
I am well aware of that. I would be just as against forcing a woman to have an abortion as I am about banning abortions outright.
So what is the problem then?  Most pro-choice people advocate against both.

Quote from: Mr. Blackwell
I did not form my opinions in a vacuum. No nation desirous of reducing its growth rate to 1% or less can expect to do so without the widespread use of abortion. This observational study, based on the experience of 116 of the world's largest countries, supports the contention that abortion is essential to any national population growth control effort. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3709011)

While our government (USA) hasn't gone so far as to legislate prohibitive reproduction rights...it supports and encourages voluntary participation.
With all due respect, this is a scientific study, one I would argue it is not representative of the mainstream pro-choice movement.  Most Americans who form opinions on abortions do not do so because of the population growth rate, though certainly some do.

Quote from: Mr. Blackwell
I am not against abortion. I would never call for abortion to become an illegal practice. However, it is a pro death movement. In America it is a method of culling the herd and it is a preferable method because it grants individual choice.
I don't agree.  You are conflating the pro-choice movement in general with the much smaller number of people who support abortion as population control.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on November 18, 2013, 06:35:00 PM
So what is the problem then?

In a nutshell?

The title and subject of this thread. I thought it would be fun to participate in the spirit of the OP and turn conventional views on their head.

Saying that abortion is the kindest thing one can do for another being is just as repugnant and offensive a subject to me as saying pro-choice is a culture of death.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Mrjason on November 19, 2013, 06:23:50 AM
Chinese population planners always said the one-child program was a temporary measure to slow the growth rate and boost economic expansion. Now that they have made their targets, they can relax the one-child rule. It is hard to blame them for doing something, with over a billion people--three times the population in the same land area as the US. And they knew what famines and the starvation of millions looked like....not pretty.

Abortion was never about US-style ethical or religious concerns, not in a country where looking at the wrong political websites can get you life in prison and embezzlement of public funds can get you the death penalty! The country could not afford more than x new babies per year, so the pregnancies that were not approved of in advance were gotten rid of. Even at 6 months!  :( :'(

Very straightforward. Very rational. Ethics was about not producing babies that the society could not feed, educate and provide a job for. In that sense, the Chinese planners could argue that abortion was far more ethical than having babies that would reduce everyone's living standard.  :P

Yep, rational solution. 
Ignoring the state enforcement, I'm inclined to agree with the ethical reasoning.

The preference for sons skewing the population so much is the one factor they did not forsee. Millions of men without wives in the forseeable future. :o

I had a look at this[1]

at birth: 1.12 male(s)/female
0-14 years: 1.17 male(s)/female (male 124,773,577/female 107,286,198)
15-24 years: 1.11 male(s)/female (male 109,922,192/female 98,325,568)

Thats about 30 million single men in want of a wife  :-\
 1. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ch.html (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ch.html)
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on November 19, 2013, 10:50:21 AM
Quote
Saying that abortion is the kindest thing one can do for another being is just as repugnant and offensive a subject to me as saying pro-choice is a culture of death.

The OP wasn't advocating it as such, it was just asking a philosophical question based on the belief system followed by many anti-choicers; e.g. that souls are granted at conception and aborted ZEFs go directly to heaven and have a zero chance of burning in eternal hellfire.

It's a valid question.

When the price of failure is so dire, wouldn't doing the one act that guarantees zero chance of failure be the only appropriate and loving response?

We're talking freaking HELLFIRE here, burning, searing pain that continues for eternity. What's never being born[1] in comparison to that?  How can anyone who truly believes in hellfire take such a chance with their child's eternity? 
 1. Or even developing to a state where one has what could be called a body.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: MadBunny on November 19, 2013, 10:54:11 AM
When the price of failure is so dire, wouldn't doing the one act that guarantees zero chance of failure be the only appropriate and loving response?

Unless you happen to be in a religion that requires say... baptism or an actual profession of faith to Jesus.  In that case Hell is full of Fetus and Zygotes.  Given the rate of natural abortion it probably sounds like popcorn.

Isn't faith grand?



*fixed bad quote box
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: Wasserbuffel on November 19, 2013, 11:06:15 AM
True, but the OP seemed to be addressing those who believe aborted = no hell.

It's hard to keep up though!  You can't find your way among the thousands of paths labeled "Christianity, this way to Heaven", without stumbling over and over into paths leading instead to hellfire.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jaimehlers on November 21, 2013, 04:50:08 PM
Saying that abortion is the kindest thing one can do for another being is just as repugnant and offensive a subject to me as saying pro-choice is a culture of death.
I think the title was an attempt to get Christians to think about abortion.  Specifically, why be opposed to it if it sends human souls to heaven before they have the chance to sin, etc, etc?

Personally, I don't think it's a very effective line of argument.  It underestimates the power of human rationalization.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: nogodsforme on November 21, 2013, 05:22:38 PM
Also, the believer has to ignore miscarriages, the many more millions of abortions that are caused by their loving god.....

Because if god wants more souls in heaven and all lost zygote souls and fetus souls go straight to be with god, abortion clinics are really helping to do god's will. Believers should certainly not be picketing and threatening Planned Parenthood.

If anything, believers should be grabbing every woman of childbearing age and forcing her to get an abortion every month. Just in case.  &)

Don't expect consistent logic here...
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jaimehlers on November 23, 2013, 11:29:39 AM
Don't expect consistent logic here...
Agreed, but they're quite capable of being inconsistent without anyone else asserting that they should be even more inconsistent in order to be consistent.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: epidemic on March 12, 2014, 09:47:07 AM
But on-topic, no matter how much weight one gives to that "potential" - key or not - the same reasoning applies regarding sperm and egg vs fertilized egg.  Potential exists in both cases.
You can certainly argue that a sperm and egg cell have potential, but it simply isn't the same thing as with a fertilized egg, never mind an embryo or a baby.  For example, for every sperm cell that successfully implants an egg cell, millions upon millions fail and die.  Never mind the far greater number of sperm cells that don't get the chance to in the first place.  The biological reality is that almost all sperm cells are simply fated to die without ever accomplishing anything meaningful.

ahh the old most sperm die argument.  I believe that the stats on fertilized eggs reaching maturity are staggering.

Most pregnancies end with the little fertilized blastocyst in the toilet or reabsorbed by mom.  So if most pregnancies do not reach term I guess abortion is ok.

That said, the topic really addresses the idea that, a religious abortion doctor who risks helfire is among the most selfless people on earth.  By his suffering 10's of thousands of souls will make it to heaven who would otherwise end up in hell given a lifetime of bad choices.

by aborting that little tinsy tiny baby the baby is fast tracked to infinite joy and love with out any human suffering.  All because one doctor decided that his mortal soul was less important than the 10's of thousands he could save.
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: jaimehlers on March 12, 2014, 10:12:44 AM
Is it really a good idea to reopen an discussion that effectively concluded nearly four months ago, epidemic?
Title: Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
Post by: epidemic on March 12, 2014, 10:18:51 AM
I don't know.

I visit on occasion and I decided to respond to a post.  Is it harmful to bring a thread out of retirement?  If no one finds value in what I wrote then it will die a proper death once again.