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Main Discussion Zone => General Religious Discussion => Topic started by: emilysmith on June 14, 2013, 05:03:59 AM

Title: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: emilysmith on June 14, 2013, 05:03:59 AM
Just putting a question out for discussion. I know it will lead to many other questions. Those questions will lead to answers and other questions which will lead to OSAS and Calvinism.

So does God love those folks who are in hell? If so, why do you believe that? If not, why do you believe not?
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: bertatberts on June 14, 2013, 06:01:24 AM
If he did love them why would he put them there?
Would you torture your children forever if you loved them?
Sorry to answer a question with a question.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: SkyWriting on June 14, 2013, 06:21:49 AM
If he did love them why would he put them there?
Would you torture your children forever if you loved them?
Sorry to answer a question with a question.

If you love them you want to see them grow.  My kid is content living in his car.
He can take my wise advice or live in his car.  My love for him does not mean
I will support him after he turns 25.  His hell is his making. There's only so much
you can do.

Man has chosen not to live with God.  It's a Hell of man's own choice.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Anfauglir on June 14, 2013, 06:47:23 AM
So does God love those folks who are in hell?

Its superficially easy for him to say he does.  And as Skywriting says, you can love your children even when they are making what you believe are poor choices.

But that get-out does not apply when the person claiming to do the loving is responsible for all things that were created.  Did man literally create hell?  Of course not - man does not have that power.  Any hell that exists was created, designed, stocked and staffed by Yahweh, nobody else.

So while - through misunderstanding, or ignorance - people may have ended UP there, what happens to them there is entirely down to Yahweh.  To use the parallel of the car, it would be like saying:

"My kid chose one day to live in his car.  I thought that was a bad choice, so I filled the car with excrement and hammered long spikes into it.  I then made sure that he could never get out, no matter how much he begged and pleaded.  Because he made a poor choice at one point, I am making sure that his choice is as painful and terrifying and horrific as I can possibly make it - while ensuring that there is no possibility for him to change his mind.  But you know, I still love him."

So no.  Does Yahweh love those folks in hell?  No way.  If there is any situation where person A is responsible for the poor conditions that person B is living in, while person A will not allow person B to ever leave, then there is no way that person A loves person B.  "Hate" would be the appropriate word there.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: bertatberts on June 14, 2013, 07:37:19 AM
If he did love them why would he put them there?
Would you torture your children forever if you loved them?
Sorry to answer a question with a question.

If you love them you want to see them grow.  My kid is content living in his car.
He can take my wise advice or live in his car.  My love for him does not mean
I will support him after he turns 25.  His hell is his making. There's only so much
you can do.
So can I take from that; If you could, you would torture your son forever.

 
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Nick on June 14, 2013, 08:24:39 AM
He has got to love them because Christians say He is love.

I is like when we get mail here and they say we are going to hell but they love us and will pray for us.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: screwtape on June 14, 2013, 08:54:35 AM
Man has chosen not to live with God.  It's a Hell of man's own choice.

So according to your SPAG, are people in hell able to get out?
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Add Homonym on June 14, 2013, 09:20:27 AM
Man has chosen not to live with God.  It's a Hell of man's own choice.

Tanks for that infos.

So, why have you chosen to live without God?

It would seem pretty staight-forward to find God, and yet you reject him.

The one true prophet is Mohammed, but you ignore his message, and worship Christ?

Why?
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: neopagan on June 14, 2013, 10:29:53 AM
If you love them you want to see them grow.  My kid is content living in his car.
He can take my wise advice or live in his car.  My love for him does not mean
I will support him after he turns 25.  His hell is his making. There's only so much
you can do.

Man has chosen not to live with God.  It's a Hell of man's own choice.

I don't get your analogy here... Your kid made the choice, but you didn't go light his car on fire while screaming you love him.

If I were to hold a gun to your head and give you a "choice" of either being shot or paying me $1000, is it still a choice? 
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Traveler on June 14, 2013, 10:36:05 AM
Just putting a question out for discussion. I know it will lead to many other questions. Those questions will lead to answers and other questions which will lead to OSAS and Calvinism.

So does God love those folks who are in hell? If so, why do you believe that? If not, why do you believe not?

How you expect this discussion to lead to Calvinism is beyond me.

God does not exist. Hell does not exist. Your fictional god obviously doesn't love much of anyone, despite what religion teaches. Any god who'd design a hell for anyone not believing in him, or making mistakes, is a petty tirant. Its a terrible, terrible work of fiction, that doesn't really work on any level as literature. And it fails mightily as a guide for decent living. The only way the bible works at all, is by being hidden away in a closet so that rather than read the whole thing, people only believe the tiny bits their preachers tell them.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Mrjason on June 14, 2013, 10:38:50 AM
The only way the bible works at all, is by being hidden away in a closet so that rather than read the whole thing, people only believe the tiny bits their preachers tell them.

It does make an excellent substitute for rizla papers thanks to its thin pages...
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: neopagan on June 14, 2013, 10:55:01 AM
Just putting a question out for discussion. I know it will lead to many other questions. Those questions will lead to answers and other questions which will lead to OSAS and Calvinism.

Is this post about TULIPs? 
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Fernweh on June 14, 2013, 01:12:52 PM


Man has chosen not to live with God.  It's a Hell of man's own choice.

Where is this Hell that I'm choosing? Is it under the disk shaped world with a dome on top that separates the waters?
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: stuffin on June 14, 2013, 01:21:37 PM
If you love them you want to see them grow.  My kid is content living in his car.
He can take my wise advice or live in his car.  My love for him does not mean
I will support him after he turns 25.  His hell is his making. There's only so much
you can do.

Man has chosen not to live with God.  It's a Hell of man's own choice.

I don't get your analogy here... Your kid made the choice, but you didn't go light his car on fire while screaming you love him.

If I were to hold a gun to your head and give you a "choice" of either being shot or paying me $1000, is it still a choice?

Like you and other posters have noted, choice, what choice?

Do as I say, worship me and do not question anything about me and I will allow you to live in heaven enjoying total bliss with me for eternity.

Do anything else and I will send you to an eternal damnation of pain and suffering unlike anything a person could experience on earth.


That is the believers choice.

There is the forgiveness angle, but that is for another topic.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: jdawg70 on June 14, 2013, 02:57:25 PM
If you love them you want to see them grow.  My kid is content living in his car.
He can take my wise advice or live in his car.  My love for him does not mean
I will support him after he turns 25.  His hell is his making. There's only so much
you can do
.

Man has chosen not to live with God.  It's a Hell of man's own choice.
Let's say we removed the part I put in bold.  Let's say that you have the ability to manifest any result you desire - basically, the "only so much you can do" becomes "you can do anything".  In what way does that change things in this scenario?
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Jag on June 14, 2013, 04:59:20 PM
Just putting a question out for discussion.
That's only going to work if you participate too. So far, you're not really doing that emilysmith.

Quote
I know it will lead to many other questions. Those questions will lead to answers and other questions which will lead to OSAS and Calvinism.
Not sure how to interpret this - do you actually want to discuss OSAS and Calvinism? If so, why not just go ahead and start there? If not, then ...?

Quote
So does God love those folks who are in hell? If so, why do you believe that? If not, why do you believe not?
You do understand that the majority of us do not believe in the existence of any god(s) at all, right? I'm not being facetious, that's often a big challenge in communicating around here.

The only way I can actually answer your question the way it's posed is to say that no, I don't believe that "god" has any feelings about anyone at all as I don't believe in such a being, and along with not believing in god, I don't believe in hell either - that's the position of most of us. So that's pretty much a conversation ender, innit?

If instead, you are asking if anyone can present arguments that would support either side of the question, while acknowledging that from here, it's all a game of "let's pretend that we agree that god is real for the sake of the discussion", then that's a different situation.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: SkyWriting on June 14, 2013, 08:17:19 PM
If you love them you want to see them grow.  My kid is content living in his car.
He can take my wise advice or live in his car.  My love for him does not mean
I will support him after he turns 25.  His hell is his making. There's only so much
you can do
.

Man has chosen not to live with God.  It's a Hell of man's own choice.
Let's say we removed the part I put in bold.  Let's say that you have the ability to manifest any result you desire - basically, the "only so much you can do" becomes "you can do anything".  In what way does that change things in this scenario?

I could have him to do all my bidding so I would no longer have to work.
He could work for my family income and my wife I could retire and do nothing but fish.
He would study for an advanced education, for my benefit.
No longer would I have to wake him with spray from a garden hose so he gets to work on time.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: SkyWriting on June 14, 2013, 08:27:17 PM
If you love them you want to see them grow.  My kid is content living in his car.
He can take my wise advice or live in his car.  My love for him does not mean
I will support him after he turns 25.  His hell is his making. There's only so much
you can do.

Man has chosen not to live with God.  It's a Hell of man's own choice.
I don't get your analogy here... Your kid made the choice, but you didn't go light his car on fire while screaming you love him.
If I were to hold a gun to your head and give you a "choice" of either being shot or paying me $1000, is it still a choice?
Like you and other posters have noted, choice, what choice?Do as I say, worship me and do not question anything about me and I will allow you to live in heaven enjoying total bliss with me for eternity.Do anything else and I will send you to an eternal damnation of pain and suffering unlike anything a person could experience on earth. That is the believers choice.There is the forgiveness angle, but that is for another topic.

I forgive you for the misunderstanding.   Jesus said to follow Him.
That is the only "rule" given.  He made no other threats.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: SkyWriting on June 14, 2013, 08:30:42 PM


Man has chosen not to live with God.  It's a Hell of man's own choice.

Where is this Hell that I'm choosing? Is it under the disk shaped world with a dome on top that separates the waters?

Life without God at your side.   Have you ever wished people would change and be nice to each other and fully supportive?  Well, man has chosen another path where the spiritual life is not in charge.  We are stuck here with the material world, for the time being.  How you describe it is up to you.  But it's not like you like it to be.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Nam on June 14, 2013, 11:13:37 PM
SkyWriting,

So Jesus before Biblegod? Or are they the same? And, if the same: then there were "more threats".

-Nam
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: SkyWriting on June 15, 2013, 03:41:19 AM
SkyWriting,

So Jesus before Biblegod? Or are they the same? And, if the same: then there were "more threats".

-Nam

Jesus didn't come to enforce the law or change it. 
He came to fulfill the law.
It's like when somebody pays all your traffic tickets.
You are grateful for what they did and you work hard not to get more tickets.
But you do it out of appreciation for what was done for you.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: The Gawd on June 15, 2013, 06:51:33 AM
SkyWriting,

So Jesus before Biblegod? Or are they the same? And, if the same: then there were "more threats".

-Nam

Jesus didn't come to enforce the law or change it. 
He came to fulfill the law.
It's like when somebody pays all your traffic tickets.
You are grateful for what they did and you work hard not to get more tickets.
But you do it out of appreciation for what was done for you.
This doesn't answer the question.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: One Above All on June 15, 2013, 07:00:46 AM
If torturing people for eternity in a lake of fire is "love", then yes, YHYH loves the people who are in hell.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: neopagan on June 15, 2013, 05:30:26 PM
like I said, YappyWay is a sadist...  Depending on which xian cult you listen to as to who the "true" believers are... You always end up with waaaay more folks roasting in ETERNAL torment than those strumming harps for all eternity. 
But remember... it's not god who sends them there... they, ummm... wait for it... chose it themselves.LOL
Which takes us back to where is this hell... since we atheists choose to go someplace we can neither see, find or direct others to...
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Nam on June 15, 2013, 07:22:56 PM
SkyWriting,

So Jesus before Biblegod? Or are they the same? And, if the same: then there were "more threats".

-Nam

Jesus didn't come to enforce the law or change it. 
He came to fulfill the law.
It's like when somebody pays all your traffic tickets.
You are grateful for what they did and you work hard not to get more tickets.
But you do it out of appreciation for what was done for you.


How does this answer my question?

-Nam
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: SkyWriting on June 15, 2013, 07:36:11 PM
SkyWriting,

So Jesus before Biblegod? Or are they the same? And, if the same: then there were "more threats".

-Nam

Jesus didn't come to enforce the law or change it. 
He came to fulfill the law.
It's like when somebody pays all your traffic tickets.
You are grateful for what they did and you work hard not to get more tickets.
But you do it out of appreciation for what was done for you.


How does this answer my question?

-Nam

Jesus not before biblegod.
Jesus not completely same as father.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Nam on June 15, 2013, 07:40:51 PM
I'd applaud you for actually answering but I already smited you for not and have to wait an hour and I'll forget by then.

So, since you don't believe that Jesus and Biblegod are one; as so many Christians do, I guess that does validate your position but doesn't make it factual, just makes it your opinion. Don't you love how that works out?

One of the many dilemmas with the Bible: it can have too many interpretations.

-Nam
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: SkyWriting on June 15, 2013, 07:41:47 PM
If torturing people for eternity in a lake of fire is "love", then yes, YHYH loves the people who are in hell.

Being outside of time, eternity is not the same as we would describe it from the inside.
The lake of fire is said to destroy everything, so the internal torment people experience
from their decision not to trust God will end at that time as well.  Everything not perfect
is destroyed in the lake of fire. Torment would likely be as well. 
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Nam on June 15, 2013, 07:44:11 PM
Outside of time? Are you a JW named Wilson on another website?

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Nick on June 15, 2013, 08:10:56 PM
He must have one of the magic decoder rings.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: SkyWriting on June 15, 2013, 08:33:31 PM
I'd applaud you for actually answering but I already smited you for not and have to wait an hour and I'll forget by then.

So, since you don't believe that Jesus and Biblegod are one; as so many Christians do, I guess that does validate your position but doesn't make it factual, just makes it your opinion. Don't you love how that works out?
One of the many dilemmas with the Bible: it can have too many interpretations.

-Nam

That's why the Bible is not required reading...says the Bible.

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

http://biblehub.com/romans/1-20.htm
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: SkyWriting on June 15, 2013, 08:35:57 PM
Outside of time? Are you a JW named Wilson on another website?

;)

-Nam

Eternal is not just a really really long time.    It's not like HS detention class that lasts ...like... for ever.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: naemhni on June 15, 2013, 09:15:23 PM
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

http://biblehub.com/romans/1-20.htm

I find it incredible that believers so often quote this verse without, apparently, even thinking about the contradiction involved here.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: sun_king on June 15, 2013, 09:36:08 PM
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

http://biblehub.com/romans/1-20.htm

Divine nature is quite evident mainly in some parts of Africa and Asia. World wars, famine, genocides, earthquakes, floods, rapes, epidemics etc are also clearly seen over the last few centuries.

Eternal power is now limited to rare appearances on toasts or crackers. God is fighting a losing battle with FSM, JC was supposed to be back in the last decade and gopherwood is no longer used to build ships.

There are thousands of Christian sects meaning that people are with lots of excuses.

You dont have anything to stand on if you are pitching Romans 1-20.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Anfauglir on June 16, 2013, 02:47:05 AM
.....since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.....

.....and as you've dodged in another thread, it was Atum who created everything, not Yahweh.  So you are following a false religion.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: One Above All on June 16, 2013, 03:42:46 AM
Being outside of time,

Impossible, since time is a requirement for existence (or, at the very least, interaction).
What exactly did you mean by "outside of time"?

eternity is not the same as we would describe it from the inside.

Eternity is eternity, regardless of the frame of reference.

The lake of fire is said to destroy everything, so the internal torment people experience
from their decision not to trust God will end at that time as well.

Where is it written that it destroys everything?
Also, I thought souls were eternal.

Everything not perfect
is destroyed in the lake of fire. Torment would likely be as well. 

That makes no sense. You'd know that if you had studied biology and physics.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: bertatberts on June 16, 2013, 04:07:50 AM
Quote from: SkyWriting
Being outside of time, eternity is not the same as we would describe it from the inside.
Please! Please! think about what you are about to post. Please!
That above is dumb! Dumb! Dumb in the extreme!
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: screwtape on June 16, 2013, 09:04:38 AM
I find it incredible that believers so often quote this verse without, apparently, even thinking about the contradiction involved here.

I like it because of the pun.  Something invisible is clearly seen.  Because if a thing is clear - like glass - it is invisible.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: junebug72 on June 16, 2013, 09:19:59 AM
If torturing people for eternity in a lake of fire is "love", then yes, YHYH loves the people who are in hell.

Being outside of time, eternity is not the same as we would describe it from the inside.
The lake of fire is said to destroy everything, so the internal torment people experience
from their decision not to trust God will end at that time as well.  Everything not perfect
is destroyed in the lake of fire. Torment would likely be as well.

Are you familiar with the parable of the rich man.  He looked up at Lazarus and begged for water. 

My loving God, that I believe in, is fair and just. I don't think God tortures unbelievers.  In fact I think God gets angrier at believers for saying God would.  I think God is angry at many believers for misrepresenting God's Love.

By the way I wish you would respond to the other thread about Noah's ark.  I replied to you with the statement that a Loving God would not do such a thing as drown a bunch of people/children.  Any body that knows about Love should be able to clearly see the bible contradicts a loving God.  Rather than become atheist I become spiritual.  I believe in God w/o religious assistance.  I thank God for all the blessings in my life.  By the way I'm a lesbian going to heaven.  Atheist are going to heaven for being good people.  Christians will not all see heaven because they disgrace God with their words and their actions.  Not all but I'm saying some.  Pat Robertson comes to mind.  Let's don't forget old Fred Phelps and Jerry Falwell.

They should not even call themselves Christians because they are not like Christ.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: screwtape on June 16, 2013, 11:01:02 AM
Quote from: SkyWriting
Being outside of time, eternity is not the same as we would describe it from the inside.
Please! Please! think about what you are about to post. Please!
That above is dumb! Dumb! Dumb in the extreme!

Please don't just tell him his post is stupid.  Explain why you disagree.  And please do it more cordially. Thanks.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: The Gawd on June 16, 2013, 11:05:13 AM
If torturing people for eternity in a lake of fire is "love", then yes, YHYH loves the people who are in hell.

Being outside of time, eternity is not the same as we would describe it from the inside.
The lake of fire is said to destroy everything, so the internal torment people experience
from their decision not to trust God will end at that time as well.  Everything not perfect
is destroyed in the lake of fire. Torment would likely be as well.

Are you familiar with the parable of the rich man.  He looked up at Lazarus and begged for water. 

My loving God, that I believe in, is fair and just. I don't think God tortures unbelievers.  In fact I think God gets angrier at believers for saying God would.  I think God is angry at many believers for misrepresenting God's Love.

By the way I wish you would respond to the other thread about Noah's ark.  I replied to you with the statement that a Loving God would not do such a thing as drown a bunch of people/children.  Any body that knows about Love should be able to clearly see the bible contradicts a loving God.  Rather than become atheist I become spiritual.  I believe in God w/o religious assistance.  I thank God for all the blessings in my life.  By the way I'm a lesbian going to heaven.  Atheist are going to heaven for being good people.  Christians will not all see heaven because they disgrace God with their words and their actions.  Not all but I'm saying some.  Pat Robertson comes to mind.  Let's don't forget old Fred Phelps and Jerry Falwell.

They should not even call themselves Christians because they are not like Christ.
you make some VERY atheistic points JB. +1
But again I have to ask you how you got this Jesus stuff without believing in the bible?
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 16, 2013, 11:50:07 AM
People in Hell?    There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that people burn alive forever in Hell.   All that is said is that evil ones will be cast into it. It does not say that they will survive the experience for all eternity.    There are references to wailing and gnashing of teeth,  but it does not indicate that this wailing and gnashing is that of a whole bunch of people.  Hell is Satan's prison.  Who is to say that humans don't just die there and that the wailing and gnashing of teeth are Satan's alone?

If they just die,  as in permanently die, how can God love them?   They will not exist.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: bertatberts on June 16, 2013, 01:00:01 PM
Quote from: SkyWriting
Being outside of time, eternity is not the same as we would describe it from the inside.
Please! Please! think about what you are about to post. Please!
That above is dumb! Dumb! Dumb in the extreme!

Please don't just tell him his post is stupid.  Explain why you disagree.  And please do it more cordially. Thanks.
I'm sorry! I do normally, however "One above all" already had. So I just exclaimed my disbeliever in the person intelligence. Sorry again.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: 12 Monkeys on June 16, 2013, 01:04:59 PM
 I love how Christians "pretend" to worship God or Jesus but sin like it does not matter. Then they blame the sin on "being human". If it is wrong to do it and you know it is wrong.......HELL for you,because you do what you KNOW to be wrong and think forgiveness is the order of the day.

 Where is the line drawn between mortal sin and a "Christian" sinning and expecting forgiveness? If it is the 10 rules....(commandments) Christians break them all the time. Does Jesus nulify the 10 commandments?
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 16, 2013, 04:29:55 PM
Outside of time? Are you a JW named Wilson on another website?

;)

-Nam


There are many references in the bible that describes that time is not the same for God as it is for us.  There is even a reference that shows that He spans the entire timeline simultaneously.  It is not a unique concept therefore the opinion is not unique to this one individual alone. 
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: screwtape on June 16, 2013, 05:34:00 PM
There are many references in the bible that describes that time is not the same for God as it is for us.  There is even a reference that shows that He spans the entire timeline simultaneously.  It is not a unique concept therefore the opinion is not unique to this one individual alone.

What are those references, specifically?  Also, I've heard a lot of xians talk about god and time, but none of them have a coherent explanation of how that idea can work.  Please elaborate on how it makes any sense that a god might "span an entire timeline simultaneously".  Just because we can put words next to each other does not mean they form an actual idea.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Nam on June 16, 2013, 05:39:25 PM
That's why the Bible is not required reading...says the Bible.

Then you're on the wrong website. You need to be at a Christian website.

Quote
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

http://biblehub.com/romans/1-20.htm

Doesn't really work for the Universe, does it?

-Nam
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Nam on June 16, 2013, 05:44:50 PM
Outside of time? Are you a JW named Wilson on another website?

;)

-Nam


There are many references in the bible that describes that time is not the same for God as it is for us.  There is even a reference that shows that He spans the entire timeline simultaneously.  It is not a unique concept therefore the opinion is not unique to this one individual alone. 

It's a joke. Did you see the wink? And please don't preach to me about what's in the Bible. Unlike most Christians most atheists have read the entire Bible. I've read 15 versions of it. How about you?

-Nam
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Graybeard on June 16, 2013, 07:14:57 PM
That's why the Bible is not required reading...says the Bible.
But don't you have to read the Bible to know that?
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 16, 2013, 09:24:16 PM
Outside of time? Are you a JW named Wilson on another website?

;)

-Nam


There are many references in the bible that describes that time is not the same for God as it is for us.  There is even a reference that shows that He spans the entire timeline simultaneously.  It is not a unique concept therefore the opinion is not unique to this one individual alone. 

It's a joke. Did you see the wink? And please don't preach to me about what's in the Bible. Unlike most Christians most atheists have read the entire Bible. I've read 15 versions of it. How about you?

-Nam


Hey now I wasn't preaching.  If you understand what I was saying then that's all good. But let's be clear.  No preaching was happening, okay?  I am not a preacher nor do I intend to do so here.  There is a huge difference between explaining something and preching about it.

I have read one version of the bible fully and have compared it with other versions, and to stay on topic from what I have read, there is nothing to indicate that human souls burn in hell for all eternity. Therefore there is nothing for God to love there. It is my opinion that if there is a hell, existence will come to an end for humans who are cast into it.   Also from my experience, it is the offically ordaned preachers who say that people will burn in hell to suffer for all eternity. Not the bible.

Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Nam on June 16, 2013, 09:51:58 PM
So Mark 9:43[1] doesn't speak about one "burning in hell"? Wow! I didn't know that. Maybe you haven't read the Bible all the way through.

-Nam
 1. into the fire that will never be quenched
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 16, 2013, 09:55:55 PM
So Mark 9:43[1] doesn't speak about one "burning in hell"? Wow! I didn't know that. Maybe you haven't read the Bible all the way through.

-Nam
 1. into the fire that will never be quenched

It just says that the fire will never be quenched. It does not say that you will be alive forever in said fire.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Nam on June 16, 2013, 09:57:50 PM
Now, now...you spoke about "souls" not living people. Don't change what you said.

-Nam
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Nam on June 16, 2013, 10:24:20 PM
Hey man, I found this for you in my Bible[1] I knew the book but not the chapter unlike with Mark:

Matthew 25:41/46
Quote
And then he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his angels:

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into enternal life

So, when was the last time you read the Bible? Been awhile?

-Nam

 1. yes, I have a Bible
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 16, 2013, 10:50:23 PM
Hey man, I found this for you in my Bible[1] I knew the book but not the chapter unlike with Mark:

Matthew 25:41/46
Quote
And then he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his angels:

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into enternal life

So, when was the last time you read the Bible? Been awhile?

-Nam
 1. yes, I have a Bible


That could be interpreted as death. Death is perminent and everlasting.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Nam on June 16, 2013, 10:54:47 PM
And there's the word I've been waiting for you to say, it's the goto word of Christians: interpreted.

But not your interpretation and that's the only one that matters. You're entertaining, man. Can't debate worth shit but entertaining.

-Nam
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 16, 2013, 11:01:58 PM
Nam.... you interpreted it without using the word interpret as well.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Nam on June 16, 2013, 11:04:05 PM
I read what it said; is it supposed to say something else? Please tell me what it actually says?

-Nam
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 16, 2013, 11:12:52 PM
Now, now...you spoke about "souls" not living people. Don't change what you said.

-Nam

Who is to say that a soul cannot be killed or otherwise eliminated. 
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 16, 2013, 11:16:16 PM
I read what it said; is it supposed to say something else? Please tell me what it actually says?

-Nam

It says everlasting fire.  Fire burns and kills. It also says everlasting punishment. When one truly dies, there is no coming back. That would be an everlasting punishment.  It also says eternal life.   IS not everlasting and eternal essentially the same thing?  Why did the english translation use two different words there?   

Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Nam on June 16, 2013, 11:25:13 PM
Who is to say that a soul cannot be killed or otherwise eliminated. 

No one. I was just pointing out what you actually said.

It says everlasting fire.  Fire burns and kills.

How do you know it kills everything, such as souls? What's your basis of comparison? Well, you'd first have to show that fire kills everything (assumption on your part), and that souls actually exist.

Quote
It also says everlasting punishment. When one truly dies, there is no coming back.

Do you see the irony of such a statement? Probably not.

Quote
That would be an everlasting punishment.  It also says eternal life.   IS not everlasting and eternal essentially the same thing?  Why did the english translation use two different words there?   

Why are you asking me, I didn't write it?

-Nam
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Anfauglir on June 17, 2013, 03:19:57 AM
.....there is nothing to indicate that human souls burn in hell for all eternity. Therefore there is nothing for God to love there. It is my opinion that if there is a hell, existence will come to an end for humans who are cast into it.   .

In your opinion, how long does that process take?  Not eternity, you've said, but do you believe it to be instantaneous?  If not, how long do you assume it takes?
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: SkyWriting on June 17, 2013, 08:09:39 AM
That's why the Bible is not required reading...says the Bible.
But don't you have to read the Bible to know that?

No.  People without access to the Christian message that has been revealed to us
don't have to know it exists to trust in the Creator.  And it's not up to them anyway.
God has His chosen, and God will reveal Himself to them as He has determined it to be.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Anfauglir on June 17, 2013, 08:11:57 AM
And it's not up to them anyway.
God has His chosen, and God will reveal Himself to them as He has determined it to be.

Sorry, bit confused here.  Are you saying that it doesn't matter what I do, "if I'm not on the list, I'm not coming in", as the doorman might say?  Because if that's the case, isn't any discussion rather academic?
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: SkyWriting on June 17, 2013, 08:12:19 AM
That's why the Bible is not required reading...says the Bible.

Then you're on the wrong website. You need to be at a Christian website.

Quote
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

http://biblehub.com/romans/1-20.htm

Doesn't really work for the Universe, does it?

-Nam

There is no other life than us.  The universe is just for us to see how big God is.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: screwtape on June 17, 2013, 08:29:36 AM
There is no other life than us.  The universe is just for us to see how big God is.

That's funny.  When I say there are no gods, xians like to get all up in my shit and say, "you can't prove that!  You cannot 100% say that is so!"  Yet here you are, aggressively asserting something as fact that you cannot possibly know even within the confines of our own solar system.

Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: SkyWriting on June 17, 2013, 08:36:48 AM
There is no other life than us.  The universe is just for us to see how big God is.

That's funny.  When I say there are no gods, xians like to get all up in my shit and say, "you can't prove that!  You cannot 100% say that is so!"  Yet here you are, aggressively asserting something as fact that you cannot possibly know even within the confines of our own solar system.

Sorry.  I should have said that based on all the material we have gathered, tests we have conducted, and radio emissions we have monitored for 50 years, there are no signs of life anywhere else.  If you insist, I repeat this post daily until new info comes in.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: SkyWriting on June 17, 2013, 08:40:46 AM
And it's not up to them anyway.
God has His chosen, and God will reveal Himself to them as He has determined it to be.

Sorry, bit confused here.  Are you saying that it doesn't matter what I do, "if I'm not on the list, I'm not coming in", as the doorman might say?  Because if that's the case, isn't any discussion rather academic?

There are two way to approach the subject.  From the human view, God is always willing and waiting for us to trust in Him.   From the "Eternal" view, God already knows what decisions you will make in the future.   From one aspect, you have the choice to accept.  From the other, it's a done deal.   It's impossible for humans to grasp both at once.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: JeffPT on June 17, 2013, 08:43:45 AM
There is no other life than us.  The universe is just for us to see how big God is.

That's funny.  When I say there are no gods, xians like to get all up in my shit and say, "you can't prove that!  You cannot 100% say that is so!"  Yet here you are, aggressively asserting something as fact that you cannot possibly know even within the confines of our own solar system.

Sorry.  I should have said that based on all the material we have gathered, tests we have conducted, and radio emissions we have monitored for 50 years, there are no signs of life anywhere else God.  If you insist, I repeat this post daily until new info comes in.

Fixed that for you. 
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Mrjason on June 17, 2013, 09:45:42 AM
There is no other life than us.  The universe is just for us to see how big God is.

That's funny.  When I say there are no gods, xians like to get all up in my shit and say, "you can't prove that!  You cannot 100% say that is so!"  Yet here you are, aggressively asserting something as fact that you cannot possibly know even within the confines of our own solar system.

Sorry.  I should have said that based on all the material we have gathered, tests we have conducted, and radio emissions we have monitored for 50 years, there are no signs of life anywhere else.  If you insist, I repeat this post daily until new info comes in.

We have been looking for alien life for only 50 years and so far haven't found any evidence for it.
Humanity has been looking for evidence for the existence of god(s) for several thousands of years and still hasn't been able to come up with any evidence for it.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: junebug72 on June 17, 2013, 10:19:49 AM
you make some VERY atheistic points JB. +1
But again I have to ask you how you got this Jesus stuff without believing in the bible?

I've tried to tell you from the start that I'm different.  I don't believe the bible is God's word.  I do see historical significance there.  I believe a man named Jesus believed he was the Messiah and fulfilled his destiny.  The birth of Christianity revolves around the life of Jesus.  I believe there is something very, very special about a man willing to die for others and what he believes.  If there were no Jesus there would be no Christianity and Judaism would still be prevalent and only available to the circumcised Jew. 

Jesus was a good man, it is his followers that disgrace.  They do not follow his teachings. 

The bible is a disgrace to God.>>  I think I just came up with my next thread title.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Graybeard on June 17, 2013, 10:42:56 AM

Who is to say that a soul cannot be killed or otherwise eliminated.

Apparently Jesus can say this:

M't:10:28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I bet God gets pissed off with so-called Christians who can't be bothered to read the back-story but make it up on their own. I reckon that the Jesus/God you have accepted is one of your own imaginings. (I hope he can grant Salvation, otherwise, like we atheists, you'll have first hand evidence of whether the soul can perish.)
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: stuffin on June 17, 2013, 12:07:38 PM
There are two way to approach the subject.  From the human view, God is always willing and waiting for us to trust in Him.   From the "Eternal" view, God already knows what decisions you will make in the future.    From one aspect, you have the choice to accept.  From the other, it's a done deal.   It's impossible for humans to grasp both at once.

Since we (humans) can't grasp it, how are you able to explain it?

Please explain to me how you are aware of the Eternal View? I would think humans wouldn't be able to understand that view.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: SkyWriting on June 17, 2013, 12:32:26 PM
There are two way to approach the subject.  From the human view, God is always willing and waiting for us to trust in Him.   From the "Eternal" view, God already knows what decisions you will make in the future.    From one aspect, you have the choice to accept.  From the other, it's a done deal.   It's impossible for humans to grasp both at once.

Since we (humans) can't grasp it, how are you able to explain it? Please explain to me how you are aware of the Eternal View? I would think humans wouldn't be able to understand that view.

I can explain one view, then the other.  People can't multitask.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: jdawg70 on June 17, 2013, 02:58:10 PM
I've tried to tell you from the start that I'm different.  I don't believe the bible is God's word.  I do see historical significance there.  I believe a man named Jesus believed he was the Messiah and fulfilled his destiny.  The birth of Christianity revolves around the life of Jesus.  I believe there is something very, very special about a man willing to die for others and what he believes.  If there were no Jesus there would be no Christianity and Judaism would still be prevalent and only available to the circumcised Jew. 

Jesus was a good man, it is his followers that disgrace.  They do not follow his teachings. 

The bible is a disgrace to God.>>  I think I just came up with my next thread title.
The Gawd's point is still valid though - where did you get the idea of Jesus in the first place?  Are there sources aside from the bible that indicate that a) a preacher named Jesus existed, b) this preacher named Jesus was the Messiah (aside: where did you get the idea of a Messiah outside of the bible), and c) this preacher, named, Jesus, who was the Messiah, did die for others and what he believed?

Is it just the existence of Christianity?  Are you implying that Christianity existed first, then stole the bible and twisted it to fit the religion?  Where did the first Christians get any information regarding Jesus?

The main point is - if the bible isn't the place where you get your info on the whole god/Jesus/Messiah thing, where did you get it?

These are questions that are probably too far off from the topic to address here.  But I think they are valid questions for you to think about.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: jdawg70 on June 17, 2013, 03:02:40 PM
Since we (humans) can't grasp it, how are you able to explain it? Please explain to me how you are aware of the Eternal View? I would think humans wouldn't be able to understand that view.

I can explain one view, then the other.  People can't multitask.

It's not a question of computational capability.  It's that one view explicitly contradicts the other view.  I can explain one view that smoking will kill you, and I explain another view that smoking will give you immortality.  I can't do both because the truth of one necessarily establishes the non-truth of the other.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 17, 2013, 04:09:28 PM
There is no other life than us.  The universe is just for us to see how big God is.

That's funny.  When I say there are no gods, xians like to get all up in my shit and say, "you can't prove that!  You cannot 100% say that is so!"  Yet here you are, aggressively asserting something as fact that you cannot possibly know even within the confines of our own solar system.

Even though I was thinking the exact same thing Screwtape, I have to say that Skywriting has made a great point.  He/she (I say he/she because the individual's gender has not been revealed to me yet) has made the same type of claim that atheists do. It's the reason this website exists.  There is no proof that there is life anywhere outside the confines of earths ecosystem, therefore there is none because there is no proof. Except for the delusional stories from individuals who say they were abducted by aliens.  Just like the assumption that there is no God, because the atheists here have declared that God is a delusional concept because there is absolutely no proof that he exists whatsoever.

Therefore the topic is moot, because since there is not God,  there is no entity to love people that exist in a non-existent Hell. Yet here you are telling SkyWriting that there is no way he/she could possibly know if there is life other than that of earths, even within our own solar system.    Well there is no way you can say that there is not God if you use that type of logic. 

My conclusion is that there is a strong possibility that the existence of both is entirely possible.  However I cannot see an all loving God allowing anybody to be tortured for all of eternity. Hell has been described as everlasting fire in this topic already. Things burn in fire. People do not survive the process.  Therefore there are no people in Hell to love. What would be the point of torturing someone forever when you can just end them.  Kill the evil, keep the good.  In my opinion, that makes more sense.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Nam on June 17, 2013, 04:28:25 PM
There is no other life than us.  The universe is just for us to see how big God is.

You have no evidence for this; and if you say the Bible is your evidence: that's not evidence.

-Nam
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Nam on June 17, 2013, 04:34:00 PM
WakingDeath,

What atheist makes the absolute fact that god doesn't exist? Very few. Now what Christian makes the absolute fact that god exists?

See the difference?

-Nam
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 17, 2013, 04:41:59 PM
WakingDeath,

What atheist makes the absolute fact that god doesn't exist? Very few. Now what Christian makes the absolute fact that god exists?

See the difference?

-Nam

So they are not atheists?   They would be agnostic would they not? 
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Nam on June 17, 2013, 04:49:20 PM
Agnostic-atheist. I myself lean Ignostic-atheist. There are levels of atheism. Strong atheists, weak atheists, and in between etc.,

-Nam
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: bertatberts on June 17, 2013, 04:54:17 PM
WakingDeath,

What atheist makes the absolute fact that god doesn't exist? Very few. Now what Christian makes the absolute fact that god exists?

See the difference?

-Nam

So they are not atheists?   They would be agnostic would they not?
No! They would still be atheist.
Some atheists like to say there are no god/gods with absolute certainty, but that is extremely rare, because we all know that we cant look under every nook and crannie in the universe or be in every place at the same time to verify whether a god is in fact hiding under a rock.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Astreja on June 17, 2013, 05:42:43 PM
So they are not atheists?   They would be agnostic would they not?

It's possible to be both simultaneously.  Theism and atheism are positions on the subject of belief, whereas gnosticism/agnosticism are positions on the subject of knowledge.
There are also weak ("unknown") and strong ("unknowable") degrees of agnosticism.  For instance, I'm a weak atheist but a strong agnostic.  I think that it's technically impossible to determine if any given being actually is a god, even if it were to fly around in plain sight, toss lightning bolts with great abandon, and turn its enemies into grilled cheese sandwiches.  For all we know, it could be advanced technology, an illusion, or some other non-divine cause.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Anfauglir on June 18, 2013, 03:09:35 AM
There are two way to approach the subject.  From the human view, God is always willing and waiting for us to trust in Him.   From the "Eternal" view, God already knows what decisions you will make in the future.   From one aspect, you have the choice to accept.  From the other, it's a done deal.   It's impossible for humans to grasp both at once.

But what you are essentially saying is that - in the Eternal view - my choice has already been made (whether I've made it yet or will make it next year).  I cannot change what my decision will be - and if I cannot change a future decision NOW, then I could never have changed today's decision yesterday....and so on back to birth.  Which means that my decision was already set in stone, unchangeable, on the day I was born, which DOES make all this discussion moot.

The alternative is that you are telling me that your god is simultaneously aware that I do/do not choose to accept him.  Can you explain a bit further, because that doesn't seem to make any sense, even when thought about from the Eternal view alone?
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: epidemic on June 18, 2013, 07:11:41 AM
There is no other life than us.  The universe is just for us to see how big God is.

That's funny.  When I say there are no gods, xians like to get all up in my shit and say, "you can't prove that!  You cannot 100% say that is so!"  Yet here you are, aggressively asserting something as fact that you cannot possibly know even within the confines of our own solar system.



What do you think the odds are that we are able to receive a radio broadcast from the next solar system.  How many watts do aliens transmitt?  What signal level would you expect us to receive.   Can we actually even hear a 100, 1000, or 100,000 watt transmission from our nearest extra solar neighbor? 

Our communications with voyager from earth to voyager 1 and 2 are broadcast at relatively strong singnal strengths.  What is the first star that those bursty communications line up with that beams path.

SETI is really cool but it is really looking for a needle in the ocean.  Go ahead find me a specific needle dropped in the ocean from an unknown sailor at an unknown date since ocean were first sailed.

What communications scheme and technology do aliens use?  did their technology develop around pass our own before we started listening.  Are they using "radio" or did then settle on infrared lazer communications or subspace temporal communications.

SETI has not proven a thing beyond the fact that we have not been able to record alien conversations either because they don't exist, or because we have not looked for them right, or because since we have been looking we simply have not progressed far enough to pull these signals from the noise floor.

with our technology we can possibly look out 500 light years for signals of similar caliber to our own transmissions.  But these very large antenna arrays are highly directional and we look for relatively short times at any point in space.  Were they transmitting 500 years ago during the time we pass the array over that dot in space.

If we did hear a signal from or galaxy or other galaxy we would be winning a lottery far more statistically improbable than the powerball.  don't get me wrong I would love to see it happen but the odds are long to put it mildly.

Sorry.  I should have said that based on all the material we have gathered, tests we have conducted, and radio emissions we have monitored for 50 years, there are no signs of life anywhere else.  If you insist, I repeat this post daily until new info comes in.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: naemhni on June 18, 2013, 07:16:52 AM
SETI is really cool but it is really looking for a needle in the ocean.

Yes, you're right, but to extend the analogy:  It's a needle that we have increasingly good reasons to think is actually there.  The more we learn about the universe, the more it appears that the Principle of Mediocrity is the correct view.  Not only that, but out of the entire ocean, the amount that we've been able to examine to any reasonable degree doesn't even amount to one teaspoon of water.

Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Nam on June 18, 2013, 07:26:41 AM
I wonder what the response from Christians like SkyWriting would be if it was shown some type of life existed on another planet?

-Nam
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: epidemic on June 18, 2013, 07:33:47 AM
SETI is really cool but it is really looking for a needle in the ocean.

Yes, you're right, but to extend the analogy:  It's a needle that we have increasingly good reasons to think is actually there.  The more we learn about the universe, the more it appears that the Principle of Mediocrity is the correct view.  Not only that, but out of the entire ocean, the amount that we've been able to examine to any reasonable degree doesn't even amount to one teaspoon of water.

I don't know what you are driving at.   I simply am saying that SETI as cool as it is, is not likely to find anything because like the needle analogy knowing something is there does not mean we could ever feasibly find it.  We absolutely know that needles are on the ocean floor but randomly finding one the way we poke around the heavens is unlikely.

you rightly cite the fact we have searched a tiny fraction of the ocean,  but our ability to search the heavens is astronomically more difficult.

we not only have to look at the right place for the broadcast but also the right time.  Did the civilization use radio 1,000,000 years ago before going low power digital?  Those signals may have long since passed earth.   Did they use directional antennas for communications and never aim them in our direction leaving us on the side lobes of the antenna?  Knowing the needle existed does not mean we will find it before it dissolves into rust and is carried off with the currents of time
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: SkyWriting on June 18, 2013, 08:13:27 AM
I wonder what the response from Christians like SkyWriting would be if it was shown some type of life existed on another planet?

-Nam

No new news of life off our planet today.  I'll keep you posted.

Statistically speaking, by the time a radio signal was sent back by explorers having found life, humans will all be dust.
That's a high price to pay to find fishing worms.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: naemhni on June 18, 2013, 08:25:58 AM
I don't know what you are driving at.   I simply am saying that SETI as cool as it is, is not likely to find anything because like the needle analogy knowing something is there does not mean we could ever feasibly find it.  We absolutely know that needles are on the ocean floor but randomly finding one the way we poke around the heavens is unlikely.

I think I may have misunderstood you, then.  What I was driving at is that life almost certainly exists elsewhere in the universe.  Every time we make a new discovery about the universe, that discovery seems to indicate an increase in that likelihood.  Finding it, though, as you say, is an entirely different matter, and unless it exists elsewhere in our own solar system, we almost certainly won't find it for the foreseeable future.  (I was about to say "for several centuries", but I'm hesitant to give a speed limit to the development of technology.)
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: naemhni on June 18, 2013, 08:30:11 AM
No new news of life off our planet today.  I'll keep you posted.

There's no need for that.  If there ever is any news of life being found on another planet, I can guaran-darn-tee you that we won't need you to tell us about it.  It will arguably be the most important discovery the human race has ever made, with the possible exception of how to make fire.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: SkyWriting on June 18, 2013, 08:50:14 AM
No new news of life off our planet today.  I'll keep you posted.

There's no need for that.  If there ever is any news of life being found on another planet, I can guaran-darn-tee you that we won't need you to tell us about it.  It will arguably be the most important discovery the human race has ever made, with the possible exception of how to make fire.

We do need more fishing worms.  I look forward to having another source.

But here's the thing.  Why would it have any importance?  So what?   
Chemistry produces life, there are chemicals in other places, what would be the big deal?   
It would be like discovering that the opposite side of the sum produces heat, just like this side does.
Hey, the moon is dusty on both sides!   Big splattering deal.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: screwtape on June 18, 2013, 09:11:07 AM
There is no proof that there is life anywhere outside the confines of earths ecosystem, therefore there is none because there is no proof.

There is no evidence that I know of that there is life on other planets.  True.  But to say "there probably is or has been life somewhere else in the univere" is not a leap of faith and is qualitatively different than saying "there is no biblegod".

We observe life here, on earth.  We know life is a possibility.  We know there are somthing like a hundred billion galaxies, each with a hundred billion stars.  So there is great opportunity for the right conditions for life to exist.  It is an expression of known probabilities.

None of this is true of gods.  We do not observe supernatural entities.  We do not know they are possible.  We have not observed places were supernatural people would live.  We do not have any good reason to suspect their existence in the first place.[1]  Add to that the fact that things claimed to have been done by yhwh in the bible are known to have not happened.

So it is not an expression of known probabilities.  These two ideas are not two sides of the same coin. 

So the theists gambit of trying to paint us with the same brush as them does not work.  It's a stupid gambit in the first place.  Whether our beliefs are equally stupid is not the point and do not make your beliefs any more true.  It is a red herring.

Well there is no way you can say that there is not God if you use that type of logic. 

As I said, they are qualitatively different claims.  And most of us don't go that far out on the limb.  Most of us say specific gods do not exist and leave open the possibility that some god may exist, depending on the specifics.   

Under what circumstances would you say it is permissible to say some imagined entity was non-existent?  What is actual evidence of absence?  Or would you like to leave open the door for the possibility of Zeus?  Ares?  Odin?  How about the Loch Ness Monster? 
 1. of course, excluding the rantings of the insane and the lies of charlatans, which pretty much covers all "holy" men who have ever lived
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Anfauglir on June 18, 2013, 09:56:13 AM
No new news of life off our planet today.  I'll keep you posted.
I prayed to Yahweh today.  No response.  I'll keep you posted.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: wright on June 18, 2013, 12:22:25 PM

We do need more fishing worms.  I look forward to having another source.

But here's the thing.  Why would it have any importance?  So what?   
Chemistry produces life, there are chemicals in other places, what would be the big deal?   
It would be like discovering that the opposite side of the sum produces heat, just like this side does.
Hey, the moon is dusty on both sides!   Big splattering deal.

A good question, SW. Assuming we find even single-celled life off-Earth and are able (which would most likely mean it's in our solar system) to learn about its makeup, here's my answer. I doubt it will satisfy you, but to educate myself and any interested onlookers...

Primarily, its importance would be as a comparison to Terrestrial life. Does it use DNA? If it does, then that strongly implies a common origin. Even if it uses a similar water-carbon, left-handed sugar chemistry, there could be subtle differences (http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2007/spectrum_plants.html (http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2007/spectrum_plants.html)). Such things have been theorized, but in my example, human biologists would have actual samples to examine.

If it doesn't use DNA, what does it use as an equivalent? Or does it even have an equivalent? If it doesn't use water-carbon chemistry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry)), does it use perhaps silicon? Titanium or aluminum oxides? Sulfur?

What can be deduced about its evolutionary history? Can we find its molecular clock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_clock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_clock)) and discover how old it is compared to Earth life? Fossils? What is its average rate of evolutionary change?

Such comparisons would be extremely valuable in giving insight into how our biochemistry works. Does alien life do certain things more or less efficiently? This could lead to an explosion of new applications in medicine similar to the new techniques for treating cancer and genetic diseases, to name just one possibility.

Lastly, I would also expect theists of all kinds to be interested in such a discovery. Just as most many god-believers have no problem accepting the fact of evolution, I think they would accept the existence of alien life as compatible with their religious views. There would likely would be a vocal minority of doubters and detractors as well.

Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 18, 2013, 02:44:45 PM
Under what circumstances would you say it is permissible to say some imagined entity was non-existent?  What is actual evidence of absence?  Or would you like to leave open the door for the possibility of Zeus?  Ares?  Odin?  How about the Loch Ness Monster?



The stories of Zeus, Aries and Odin are just that.  Stories.   The same can be said about a huge chunk of the Old Testament of the bible. Most of the books contained are stories about God.  I am not so certain about the New Testament. Yes the Gospels are stories about a man named Jesus, or to be more accurate, the name actually translates to Joshua, but these stories have a good chance of having a basis in fact just like our ancient history books do. The man was a great teacher of what is universally moral, even if some others have taught the some of the same things previously. Wisdom is universal.  Even of HE may not have been the actual son of God, he still deserves respect and was probably the greatest teacher of all time.

As far as "Nessy" goes,  who is to say that we have discovered all of the lifeforms on earth.  The same could be said about Bigfoot, although I don't know how we could miss something so large, considering the technology of today. But... new species are being discovered quite often.  And since life begets life... it is logical to assume that all life spawned from the original source of life.


edit - fixed quote.  Please work on your quoting.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: One Above All on June 18, 2013, 02:49:34 PM
Under what circumstances would you say it is permissible to say some imagined entity was non-existent?  What is actual evidence of absence?  Or would you like to leave open the door for the possibility of Zeus?  Ares?  Odin?  How about the Loch Ness Monster?
<snip>

A long dodge that answered nothing. Re-read the questions. I'll put them in big, bold letters for you.

Under what circumstances would you say it is permissible to say some imagined entity was non-existent?  What is actual evidence of absence?
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 18, 2013, 02:59:40 PM
Under what circumstances would you say it is permissible to say some imagined entity was non-existent?  What is actual evidence of absence?  Or would you like to leave open the door for the possibility of Zeus?  Ares?  Odin?  How about the Loch Ness Monster?
<snip>

A long dodge that answered nothing. Re-read the questions. I'll put them in big, bold letters for you.

Under what circumstances would you say it is permissible to say some imagined entity was non-existent?  What is actual evidence of absence?

I really didn't intend to dodge that, but Screwtape did add more to that question and I answered it as he asked.  I am not sure if I can answer that adequately.

"What is actual evidence of absence?"  If it's not there then it does not exist.  If it is there, then it does exist. It does not matter of we know of it's existence or not.  I suppose that is the only answer I can give concerning that particular question.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: naemhni on June 18, 2013, 03:02:54 PM
As far as "Nessy" goes,  who is to say that we have discovered all of the lifeforms on earth.

Nobody says that.  In fact, quite the contrary, biologists readily acknowledge that there are, in all likelihood, literally millions of species that we haven't discovered yet.  However, that does not mean that it is reasonable to think that Nessie may exist.  There are very good reasons to assume that it doesn't, the main one being that Loch Ness has a total water volume of less than two cubic miles, which is far too small to provide sufficient food to support a life form as large as Nessie is purported to be.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: One Above All on June 18, 2013, 03:07:03 PM
I really didn't intend to dodge that, but Screwtape did add more to that question and I answered it as he asked.  I am not sure if I can answer that adequately.

You could at least try. I'm fairly certain I know what kind of point screwtape wanted to make, and it requires you answer the question honestly.

"What is actual evidence of absence?"  If it's not there then it does not exist.  If it is there, then it does exist. It does not matter of we know of it's existence or not.  I suppose that is the only answer I can give concerning that particular question.

Your "answer" is nothing of the sort. Try again.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 18, 2013, 03:07:39 PM
As far as "Nessy" goes,  who is to say that we have discovered all of the lifeforms on earth.

Nobody says that.  In fact, quite the contrary, biologists readily acknowledge that there are, in all likelihood, literally millions of species that we haven't discovered yet.  However, that does not mean that it is reasonable to think that Nessie may exist.  There are very good reasons to assume that it doesn't, the main one being that Loch Ness has a total water volume of less than two cubic miles, which is far too small to provide sufficient food to support a life form as large as Nessie is purported to be.

I did imply that when I mentioned how I don't know how we could miss something so large.  I forgot to mention the confined space that 'Nessy" would live in.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 18, 2013, 03:12:42 PM
I really didn't intend to dodge that, but Screwtape did add more to that question and I answered it as he asked.  I am not sure if I can answer that adequately.

You could at least try. I'm fairly certain I know what kind of point screwtape wanted to make, and it requires you answer the question honestly.

"What is actual evidence of absence?"  If it's not there then it does not exist.  If it is there, then it does exist. It does not matter of we know of it's existence or not.  I suppose that is the only answer I can give concerning that particular question.

Your "answer" is nothing of the sort. Try again.

I can only provide an example. If something was there before and now it isn't, that would be evidence of absence. If I were to suddenly go missing, that would be evidence of absence. Something would have had to been present in the past in order for it to be absent now.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: One Above All on June 18, 2013, 03:22:44 PM
I can only provide an example. If something was there before and now it isn't, that would be evidence of absence. If I were to suddenly go missing, that would be evidence of absence. Something would have had to been present in the past in order for it to be absent now.

That is a good answer. I'll leave it up to screwtape to decide whether or not it answers the question, since I'm not sure if he was looking for something like that, or if by "evidence of absence" he meant "evidence of non-existence". By the way, you forgot the other one. Under what circumstances would you say it is permissible to say some imagined entity was non-existent?
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Azdgari on June 18, 2013, 03:39:12 PM
Something would have had to been present in the past in order for it to be absent now.

It logically follows from this that anything that was not present in the past, cannot be absent now.  In other words, if it was absent in the past (ie. not present), then it must be present now.

Did you mean to say something different?
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: ParkingPlaces on June 18, 2013, 04:02:38 PM
I did imply that when I mentioned how I don't know how we could miss something so large.  I forgot to mention the confined space that 'Nessy" would live in.

Loch Ness is interesting. I'm not talking about the lake itself, but rather its effect is has on humans, once the rumor or a monster arose. When I was there, with three others, in the early 70's, every little wave, every little whitecap felt, made me feel, if only for  second until I could tell it was nothing, that maybe there was a Loch Ness monster. My stomach reacted the same way it would if Nessie were real. It was an interesting psychological experience. All four of us, each of whom poo-pooed the idea of the critter being real, reacted the same way, over and over again. We laughed about it for years afterward.

In other words, the idea was in our heads, and it didn't take much for us to think that maybe, just maybe, that little anomaly on the lake was indeed an ancient dinosaur rising to the surface for someone to discover.

I'm guessing the idea of a god affects some people the same way.

It is not always easy to separate fiction from fact. Now that I'm much older, I am quite happy that I can tell the difference. I must admit, though, I enjoyed the fantasy when I was 20.

And by the way, the lake is actually pretty big. Over 20 square miles. So it depends on ones definition of "confined". (It is big enough and deep and cold enough that most drowning victims bodies are never recovered. But as per our friend SkyWriting, that still beats the crap out of being alive.)
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Nam on June 18, 2013, 06:43:18 PM
No new news of life off our planet today.  I'll keep you posted.

Statistically speaking, by the time a radio signal was sent back by explorers having found life, humans will all be dust.
That's a high price to pay to find fishing worms.

That doesn't really answer my question. It's a "What if" -- do you know how to answer such a question? Apparently not.

-Nam
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 18, 2013, 09:26:42 PM
Quote
That is a good answer. I'll leave it up to screwtape to decide whether or not it answers the question, since I'm not sure if he was looking for something like that, or if by "evidence of absence" he meant "evidence of non-existence". By the way, you forgot the other one. Under what circumstances would you say it is permissible to say some imagined entity was non-existent?

That would always be permissible, unless the imagined entity actually exists in some form. 

Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 18, 2013, 09:30:13 PM
Something would have had to been present in the past in order for it to be absent now.

It logically follows from this that anything that was not present in the past, cannot be absent now.  In other words, if it was absent in the past (ie. not present), then it must be present now.

Did you mean to say something different?

No. If something was never there there would not be any evidence of absence. Something has to be removed in order to have evidence of absence.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: jdawg70 on June 18, 2013, 10:18:27 PM
Something would have had to been present in the past in order for it to be absent now.

It logically follows from this that anything that was not present in the past, cannot be absent now.  In other words, if it was absent in the past (ie. not present), then it must be present now.

Did you mean to say something different?

No. If something was never there there would not be any evidence of absence. Something has to be removed in order to have evidence of absence.
I think there is something of a subtle distinction that needs to be made at this time.  What you're interpretting as 'evidence of absence' seems something closer to 'evidence of past manifestation' or 'evidence of what once was but may no longer be'.

It's a bit different than 'evidence that something doesn't exist'.  Is this distinction valid and/or applicable to the current conversations?
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Azdgari on June 18, 2013, 11:43:45 PM
^^ Yes, that's a relevant distinction, imo.  "What is evidence that something has ceased to exist" is not what is being asked.  "What is evidence that something does not exist at all?" is what is being asked.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Anfauglir on June 19, 2013, 02:14:55 AM
Under what circumstances would you say it is permissible to say some imagined entity was non-existent?  What is actual evidence of absence?  Or would you like to leave open the door for the possibility of Zeus?  Ares?  Odin?  How about the Loch Ness Monster?

The stories of Zeus, Aries and Odin are just that.  Stories.   The same can be said about a huge chunk of the Old Testament of the bible. Most of the books contained are stories about God. 

So if there are stories about Zeus, and stories about Yahweh, what is it that makes one's existence more plausible than the other?
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 19, 2013, 08:02:40 AM
Under what circumstances would you say it is permissible to say some imagined entity was non-existent?  What is actual evidence of absence?  Or would you like to leave open the door for the possibility of Zeus?  Ares?  Odin?  How about the Loch Ness Monster?

The stories of Zeus, Aries and Odin are just that.  Stories.   The same can be said about a huge chunk of the Old Testament of the bible. Most of the books contained are stories about God. 

So if there are stories about Zeus, and stories about Yahweh, what is it that makes one's existence more plausible than the other?

There are stories about Christopher Columbus as well.  What makes his previous existence plausible? 
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: screwtape on June 19, 2013, 08:14:56 AM
Under what circumstances would you say it is permissible to say some imagined entity was non-existent?  What is actual evidence of absence?  Or would you like to leave open the door for the possibility of Zeus?  Ares?  Odin?  How about the Loch Ness Monster?

The stories of Zeus, Aries and Odin are just that.  Stories.   

You've already heard this, but your post does not answer my question.  Take another look at it. 

You say those stories are just stories, without proving they are.  But I say that about the bible, and whoa Nelly, I'm breaking some kind of law of logic.  Take another look at the point I'm making.  Let me help...

In another post you said:
No. If something was never there there would not be any evidence of absence. Something has to be removed in order to have evidence of absence.

Presumably, we agree Zeus never existed, yes?  How do we establish that? 
Now, correlate Zeus and yhwh.
Do we leave the door open for the possibility of Zeus?

The same can be said about a huge chunk of the Old Testament of the bible. Most of the books contained are stories about God.

1. How do you know which chunk is just a story and which isn't?
2. No, most of the OT is not about yhwh.  Most of the OT is a culture dump of the hebrew people in roughly the iron age. It includes their rituals and their national myths, which appears as history, but is not.  George Washington probably did not chop down a cherry tree.


but these stories have a good chance of having a basis in fact just like our ancient history books do.

A good chance?  What is the probability?  Show your work.  And what does that mean?  If jesus H was just a wandering hebrew loud-mouth, and not the son of god, then xianity is complete bullshit.  That is the whole core of xianity.

Does that mean the Iliad also has a good chance of having a basis in fact?  How about the epic of Gilgamesh?  The Hindu Vedas? 

The man was a great teacher of what is universally moral,

Oh really?  What is universally moral?  What about xianity is universally moral?  People get to go unpunished for their crimes?  That someone else has the power to forgive others for their transgressions against you?  That someone else can take your punishment?  I don't find any of that moral.

he still deserves respect and was probably the greatest teacher of all time.

I disagree.  He did nothing in terms of delivering useful practices.  The whole power of jesus H is in the idea that he was supposedly god.  If he wasn't, then he was irrelevant.  The Buddha, Prince Siddhartha Gauthama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha), on the other hand developed a system of ethical principles and meditation techniques that work regardless of any supernatural claims attachted to buddha.  In other words, even if The Buddha is just a fiction, it does not matter, because what he said works.

As far as "Nessy" goes,  who is to say that we have discovered all of the lifeforms on earth.

So you do want to leave the door open for the loch ness monster.  Okay.  We should also leave it open for mermaids, because, hey, you never know.  And leprechans, because who's to say?

Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: screwtape on June 19, 2013, 08:27:42 AM
There are stories about Christopher Columbus as well.  What makes his previous existence plausible?

There is a lot we do not know about CC, but some evidence does exist.  Documents that correlate to other documents.  Portraits. Accounting logs, his own writings.  Not just narratives.[1]  The same cannot be said for yhwh or Zeus.

You are trying to equivocate again.  Stop doing that.  It does not make your point.  It is a social convention, not a law of rationality.  And even if you were correct, that we only have stories about Columbus and they are equally reliable about the OT stories about yhwh, you cannot be excused for having irrational beliefs just because other people have other irrational beliefs.  You cannot do that anymore than you can be excused for thinking 1+1=3 just because someone else thinks 2+2=5.
 1. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_theories_of_Christopher_Columbus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_theories_of_Christopher_Columbus)
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/127070/Christopher-Columbus/25446/Principal-evidence-of-travels (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/127070/Christopher-Columbus/25446/Principal-evidence-of-travels)
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 19, 2013, 10:08:40 AM
Quote from: screwtape
Presumably, we agree Zeus never existed, yes?  How do we establish that? 
Now, correlate Zeus and yhwh.
Do we leave the door open for the possibility of Zeus?

No. People do not have any spiritual experiences involving Zeus, nor are there any prophets of Zeus.  Yhwh is roughly translated as "he who creates" or "that which creates" The universe is here. It was wither created by God or it was not. (Being an agnostic theist I do accept both possibilities)

Quote
1. How do you know which chunk is just a story and which isn't?
2. No, most of the OT is not about yhwh.  Most of the OT is a culture dump of the hebrew people in roughly the iron age. It includes their rituals and their national myths, which appears as history, but is not.  George Washington probably did not chop down a cherry tree.

Agreed.  it is a culture dump.




Quote
A good chance?  What is the probability?  Show your work.  And what does that mean?  If jesus H was just a wandering hebrew loud-mouth, and not the son of god, then xianity is complete bullshit.  That is the whole core of xianity.
 

I fully accept that as a possibility. I personally don't believe so but that is my choice to make. I fully accept that I believe,  or have the opinion that Jesus (Joshua) was a true speaker for God. Possibly the most important one.

Quote
Oh really?  What is universally moral?  What about xianity is universally moral?  People get to go unpunished for their crimes?  That someone else has the power to forgive others for their transgressions against you?  That someone else can take your punishment?  I don't find any of that moral.

Being loving, forgiving and non-judgmental is universally moral.   Treating others with the same respect that you would like to be treated with is universally moral, even if Confucuis taught it previously. If Jesus was telling the truth, people do NOT go unpunished for their crimes. They do not receive eternal life.  And if Jesus was God and He chose to die so that my sins could be forgiven, I am very grateful and I do respect it. Very moral of Him since God started this ball rolling in the first place.


Quote
I disagree.  He did nothing in terms of delivering useful practices.  The whole power of jesus H is in the idea that he was supposedly god.  If he wasn't, then he was irrelevant.  The Buddha, Prince Siddhartha Gauthama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha), on the other hand developed a system of ethical principles and meditation techniques that work regardless of any supernatural claims attachted to buddha.  In other words, even if The Buddha is just a fiction, it does not matter, because what he said works.

Teaching people to forgive others, not to seek revenge and to be merciful are not useful practices?  So I should just go and burn the houses down of the people who caused me harm in my life? So if someone kills one of my loved ones I should kill them or make them suffer? IF someone were to rape my nieces I should torture the rapists for doing do? 

Quote
So you do want to leave the door open for the loch ness monster.  Okay.  We should also leave it open for mermaids, because, hey, you never know.  And leprechans, because who's to say?
   

No.  There are ways to prove if "Nessy" is real or not.  Nobody wants to waste the money and resources doing so.  Too much risk of it being a falsehood.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: jdawg70 on June 19, 2013, 10:20:15 AM
No. People do not have any spiritual experiences involving Zeus, nor are there any prophets of Zeus.  Yhwh is roughly translated as "he who creates" or "that which creates" The universe is here. It was wither created by God or it was not. (Being an agnostic theist I do accept both possibilities)
People do not have any spiritual experiences involving Yhwh either.  They claim they do.  Just like the people in the past that claimed to have had spiritual experiences with Zeus or any number of deities you do not subscribe to.  If you have any other evidence to suggest that the people claiming to have spiritual experiences (kinda squishy on the definition of 'spiritual' by-the-by), by all means trot it out.

While you accept the possibilities that a creator god made the universe or no such creator god created the universe, you seem to think it more probable that a creator god did do it?  If so, why?
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Astreja on June 19, 2013, 10:20:36 AM
The stories of Zeus, Aries and Odin are just that.  Stories.

<nitpick>Do you mean Ares, the Greek god of war, or the astrological sign Aries?</nitpick>

Personally I find Oðinn vastly more believable than the god of the Bible -- I subscribe to the hypothesis that he was actually a ruler of one of the Norse clans, and was deified by his people.  (It also doesn't hurt that I happen to be descended from the Norse bloodline, and call him Dad. 8))
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 19, 2013, 10:33:52 AM

Quote from: jdawg70
People do not have any spiritual experiences involving Yhwh either.  They claim they do.  Just like the people in the past that claimed to have had spiritual experiences with Zeus or any number of deities you do not subscribe to.  If you have any other evidence to suggest that the people claiming to have spiritual experiences (kinda squishy on the definition of 'spiritual' by-the-by), by all means trot it out.

I explained my definition of spirituality in my introduction. You may refer to that.

Quote
While you accept the possibilities that a creator god made the universe or no such creator god created the universe, you seem to think it more probable that a creator god did do it?  If so, why?

Because is appears that everything that has a beginning in this universe has an end.  Therefore whatever/whoever created the universe would have to be infinite. If the universe had a beginning, which most scientists say it did, something had to be the catalyst to cause it to exist. Something just cannot start on it's own unless something else forces it to do so.



Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: screwtape on June 19, 2013, 11:01:48 AM
No. People do not have any spiritual experiences involving Zeus, nor are there any prophets of Zeus.

??Wha...?  What do you mean?  People used to have Zeus experiences all the time!  There used to be an oracle on every islet in the Aegean!  I just know that if you opened your heart to Zeus, he would answer.  If he does not, then you have done it wrongly.  Just try it again, only more sincerely.

And let's not forget his human children - Perseus and Hercules, to name just two.  Zeus had dozens of human children.  yhwh - just one.  Not very fecund. 

You have not proven Zeus does not exist.  You have only alleged it.  Just because Zeus (et al) have fallen out of popularity doe not mean he does not exist. 

Besides, all those alleged yhwh experiences are without evidence.  How do you know it was yhwh?  They can be explained by rather mundane psychology.  Every religious experience has been recreated in a lab.[1] Or, if you want to go another route, people of other religions also have similar experiences. 

Yhwh is roughly translated as "he who creates" or "that which creates" The universe is here. It was wither created by God or it was not. (Being an agnostic theist I do accept both possibilities)

Oh, come on.  He's named "he who creates" so that makes him more credible?  Really?  If his name was Jealous, would that make any difference?  What if the god of the OT was really two different gods?  Suppose one was called "yhwh" and the other was "elohim"?  Would that impact your opinion?


I fully accept that as a possibility. I personally don't believe so but that is my choice to make.

How much do you fully accept that possibility?  I think when it comes to reality, there are no choices.  So for me, when reality is confronting one of my beliefs, even one I love, I have to accept reality.  Because reality is all that exists for me to deal with.  Are you willing to change your mind, or are you going to waste precious time and brain power proving your beloved belief?

Being loving, forgiving and non-judgmental is universally moral.   Treating others with the same respect that you would like to be treated with is universally moral, even if Confucius taught it previously.

Actually, the [wiki]Golden Rule[/wiki] predates Confucius by 1200 - 1500 years.  It has been found in Middle Kingdom Egyptian writing that date as far back as 2000 bce and was all over the middle and near east from then on. 

So, jesus H was stating the obvious.  Old news.  A 1700 year old cliche.  BFD.  That sets a pretty low bar for "Best Teacher Evar".  Not only that, but that is not a complete ethical system.

If Jesus was telling the truth,

That is a giant if, and one that I have no reason to accept.

Teaching people to forgive others, not to seek revenge and to be merciful are not useful practices?

No.  Those are lofty platitudes. And I'm not even convinced jesus H said any of that.

And which jesus H are we talking about?  There are several.  How about the one who tells people to abandon their families to follow him?  How about the one who says if someone is beating the shit out of you, you should let them punch you on the other side of your face too and not fight back?

You do not have a consistent, coherent jesus H, because the gospels represent different sects with different ideas about who jesus H was and what his message was.  Thus, you do not have a consistent, coherent, complete ethic either.  All that had to be woven together after the fact by Paul and the early church.

So I should just go and burn the houses down of the people who caused me harm in my life?

It worked for the vikings.

So if someone kills one of my loved ones I should kill them or make them suffer? IF someone were to rape my nieces I should torture the rapists for doing do? 

Is that not what we as a society collectively do?  Do you forgive those people?  I hardly think so. Nor do I think forgiving them is a virtue. 


No.  There are ways to prove if "Nessy" is real or not.  Nobody wants to waste the money and resources doing so.  Too much risk of it being a falsehood.

This is what I've been trying to get at.  You say there are ways to prove nonexistence.  Let's have it.  Set aside the practical matters, like cost.  How exactly would you go about proving Nessy's nonexistence? 

Before you do that, you might try using the search function.  See what comes up for Screwtape's Dog.
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet)
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Mrjason on June 19, 2013, 11:03:21 AM
Because is appears that everything that has a beginning in this universe has an end.
 
Like what? It appears that everything in the universe changes state from time to time but nothing ever completely disappears.

Therefore whatever/whoever created the universe would have to be infinite. If the universe had a beginning, which most scientists say it did, something had to be the catalyst to cause it to exist.


The universe as it is now had a beginning where it began to look like it does today. That doesn't mean all of the constituent parts were not there

Something just cannot start on it's own unless something else forces it to do so.

And who is god's god that started him?
 
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Jag on June 19, 2013, 11:07:00 AM

Quote from: jdawg70
People do not have any spiritual experiences involving Yhwh either.  They claim they do.  Just like the people in the past that claimed to have had spiritual experiences with Zeus or any number of deities you do not subscribe to.  If you have any other evidence to suggest that the people claiming to have spiritual experiences (kinda squishy on the definition of 'spiritual' by-the-by), by all means trot it out.

I explained my definition of spirituality in my introduction. You may refer to that.
That's very nice, but did you miss the actual request in your rush to refer him to another post which doesn't address the request either?


Quote
If the universe had a beginning, which most scientists say it did, something had to be the catalyst to cause it to exist. Something just cannot start on it's own unless something else forces it to do so.

So, rather than follow up on what else scientists have to say about the origins of the universe, you decided instead to believe that a magic man in the sky is responsible. Interesting that you will refer to science to make a point, but fail to see why that isn't a good option for you of all people to be using in this case.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Astreja on June 19, 2013, 12:20:31 PM
So I should just go and burn the houses down of the people who caused me harm in my life?

It worked for the vikings.

At least till the stench of burnt houses dropped the property values, and Olaf the Developer bought the whole neighbourhood and converted it to condos Christianity.  Not trying that stunt again; next time we'll just file a strongly-worded complaint through the Neighbourhood Association.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 19, 2013, 04:00:06 PM


Quote from: Jag
So, rather than follow up on what else scientists have to say about the origins of the universe, you decided instead to believe that a magic man in the sky is responsible. Interesting that you will refer to science to make a point, but fail to see why that isn't a good option for you of all people to be using in this case.

I find it rather silly when people refer to God as a "magic man in the sky" but I will entertain you for the time being. I also find it even more silly, when theists get insulted when they perceive that someone has insulted God. They are NOT God so why are they insulted? 

I have followed up on what scientists say about the universe, and I can also simultaneously surmise that if science proves how the universe was formed, it was God that used that science to create it.  I can use both options simultaneously and not be a fault.



Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Dante on June 19, 2013, 04:14:47 PM

I find it rather silly when people refer to God as a "magic man in the sky" but I will entertain you for the time being.

We use "magic man in the sky", or some other variation, so as to not seem like we're picking solely on xians. It's applicable to most religions.

Quote
I also find it even more silly, when theists get insulted when they perceive that someone has insulted God. They are NOT God so why are they insulted? 

Good question. Of course, one answer is that gods really have no power to defend themselves, so their believers must do it for them.

Quote
I have followed up on what scientists say about the universe, and I can also simultaneously surmise that if science proves how the universe was formed, it was God that used that science to create it.  I can use both options simultaneously and not be a fault.

True enough, but that means your god slips further and further away from reality.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 19, 2013, 04:17:52 PM
 
Quote from: Mrjason
Like what? It appears that everything in the universe changes state from time to time but nothing ever completely disappears.

Correct. The matter and energy in the universe as it is now can neither be created or destroyed. If it was designed, that would have been a part of it's design.


Quote
The universe as it is now had a beginning where it began to look like it does today. That doesn't mean all of the constituent parts were not there

Agreed. I never claimed that God created the universe out of nothing. But technically it would be nothing as it pertains to this universe. Time is a fabric of the universe.  The matter and energy used to create the universe did not exist in this universe until the universe was initialized.

Quote
And who is god's god that started him?

God would have to always have existed and will have always exist. There are a few biblical references that show this.  We exist in a fixed timeline...God does not.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Dante on June 19, 2013, 04:22:25 PM
 
Quote from: Mrjason

[And who is god's god that started him?

God would have to always have existed and will have always exist. There are a few biblical references that show this.  We exist in a fixed timeline...God does not.

So why is it such a stretch for you to imagine that the consituent parts of the universe have always existed, and will always exist?
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 19, 2013, 04:35:18 PM
So why is it such a stretch for you to imagine that the consituent parts of the universe have always existed, and will always exist?

I already gave my opinion about the energy that was used to create the universe. I believe that it would have had to exist outside of the universe as we know it.  As far as it always existing, well of course it will.  It will eventually be a thin layer of it's constituent particles, but it will always be there in some form. 
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Azdgari on June 19, 2013, 04:39:47 PM
The universe is not subject to your opinion.  If all you have is your opinion, then perhaps "I don't know" is a better tack to take...
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 19, 2013, 04:44:53 PM
The universe is not subject to your opinion.  If all you have is your opinion, then perhaps "I don't know" is a better tack to take...

What we don't know about it is subject to anybodies opinion.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Azdgari on June 19, 2013, 05:20:57 PM
So our opinions have metaphysical power over things we don't know about?

What if someone else knows about it?  Does our opinion change it then, and do they get to observe the change?

What we don't know, we don't know, and making definite statements about it based on our opinion is dishonest as we're pretending to know more than we do.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 19, 2013, 05:31:00 PM
Before you do that, you might try using the search function.  See what comes up for Screwtape's Dog.

I did.  It showed nothing.  Unless Screwtape's Dog existed here before, that would be evidence of absence.  Screwtape's Dog is not absent. It was never there.

Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 19, 2013, 05:48:57 PM
So our opinions have metaphysical power over things we don't know about?

I didn't say that.

What if someone else knows about it?  Does our opinion change it then, and do they get to observe the change?

Only if they are capable of showing us.  I will explain my spiritual experience in another thread sometime.

What we don't know, we don't know, and making definite statements about it based on our opinion is dishonest as we're pretending to know more than we do.

Who's pretending. My opinions could be wrong. So could yours.  I am not pretending to believe anything. 
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Azdgari on June 19, 2013, 05:52:26 PM
"God exists" is dishonest for the reason I just described.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 19, 2013, 05:57:57 PM
"God exists" is dishonest for the reason I just described.

I never claimed that God existed.  It is just my opinion that He does.  I could very well be wrong, or I could very well be correct.

Are you pushing me man?   Did you not read what I have posted?
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: 12 Monkeys on June 19, 2013, 06:12:25 PM


Quote from: Jag
So, rather than follow up on what else scientists have to say about the origins of the universe, you decided instead to believe that a magic man in the sky is responsible. Interesting that you will refer to science to make a point, but fail to see why that isn't a good option for you of all people to be using in this case.

I find it rather silly when people refer to God as a "magic man in the sky" but I will entertain you for the time being. I also find it even more silly, when theists get insulted when they perceive that someone has insulted God. They are NOT God so why are they insulted? 

I have followed up on what scientists say about the universe, and I can also simultaneously surmise that if science proves how the universe was formed, it was God that used that science to create it.  I can use both options simultaneously and not be a fault.
Why was science non existent at first,,,,then magic and now real? Sciences as it stands does not have all the answers it needs to explain everything,but at least its on the path.

 There is no science in the Bible because it was not inspired by a God,but was written by humans ignorant of ANY scientific method. If a god inspired the Bible we would not have dragons and monsters or dinosaur fossils unexplained. Was this God ignorant of basic scientific methods?

 People interested in early scientific method....what usually happened to them?
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: 12 Monkeys on June 19, 2013, 06:18:48 PM
WD your 'spiritual" experience could be dismissed by science explaining it (if possible),by Hindus,Muslims,Jews or any other people of any other religious faction with "spiritual" stories of their own from their "gods".

 I myself have had spiritual experiences,in dreams and visions. Turns out my spiritual experience were of the supernatural beings I was brought up with....easily dismissed by you as nothing I am sure
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 19, 2013, 06:19:20 PM
There is no science in the Bible because it was not inspired by a God,but was written by humans ignorant of ANY scientific method. If a god inspired the Bible we would not have dragons and monsters or dinosaur fossils unexplained. Was this God ignorant of basic scientific methods?

Inspired by God and written by God are two entirely different things. God did not write one word in that book.  Theists who refer to the bible as "God's Word" don't know what they are talking about, nor have they actually read the bible as it is.  The Word described in the bible does not refer to the bible. It refers to Christ.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 19, 2013, 06:21:52 PM
WD your 'spiritual" experience could be dismissed by science explaining it (if possible),by Hindus,Muslims,Jews or any other people of any other religious faction with "spiritual" stories of their own from their "gods".

 I myself have had spiritual experiences,in dreams and visions. Turns out my spiritual experience were of the supernatural beings I was brought up with....easily dismissed by you as nothing I am sure

My "spiritual experience" was nothing of the sort. It was a wide awake real life series of events.  No dreams and no visions. I will explain it in another thread, Okay?  We are far enough off topic as it is.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: 12 Monkeys on June 19, 2013, 06:22:50 PM
There is no science in the Bible because it was not inspired by a God,but was written by humans ignorant of ANY scientific method. If a god inspired the Bible we would not have dragons and monsters or dinosaur fossils unexplained. Was this God ignorant of basic scientific methods?

Inspired by God and written by God are two entirely different things. God did not write one word in that book.  Theists who refer to the bible as "God's Word" don't know what they are talking about, nor have they actually read the bible as it is.  The Word described in the bible does not refer to the bible. It refers to Christ.
Why were the inspired words from this god absent of any scientific method?
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: 12 Monkeys on June 19, 2013, 06:24:24 PM
WD your 'spiritual" experience could be dismissed by science explaining it (if possible),by Hindus,Muslims,Jews or any other people of any other religious faction with "spiritual" stories of their own from their "gods".

 I myself have had spiritual experiences,in dreams and visions. Turns out my spiritual experience were of the supernatural beings I was brought up with....easily dismissed by you as nothing I am sure

My "spiritual experience" was nothing of the sort. It was a wide awake real life series of events.  No dreams and no visions. I will explain it in another thread, Okay?  We are far enough off topic as it is.
By all means start another thread....if the outcome of the dream event and the real-time event have the same end result what is the difference?
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 19, 2013, 06:32:17 PM
Why were the inspired words from this god absent of any scientific method?

The people who wrote the bible were not scientists. 
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: ParkingPlaces on June 19, 2013, 07:28:28 PM
WD

It is of course fine to have an opinion about a god existing. Postive or negative. However, if you think there is a god and then use misunderstandings and simplistic over generalizations about science to back up your opinion, you end up sounding kind of silly.

It is bad enough when people fill the gaps in human knowledge with their god and say that his existence is the only explanation. But when people fill their ignorance with their god, it gets embarrassing.

If you are not inspired to learn enough about science to argue against it cogently, you might try sticking to moral issues and and leave the physical world alone. You are not helping your cause otherwise.

It is the job of science to explore, discover, invent and theorize, among other things. It is an ongoing process that will never be able to discover everything. Religion takes it upon itself to tell us it has all the important answers already. Which would be less of a problem if any of the religious explanations matched reality in useful quantities. They don't. I tend to assume that Christians and muslims in particular are very interested in there being an afterlife, and they seem forced by their hopes to mold this life in such a way that it end up looking consistent with said afterlife. Dissing science is one tactic of believers. And most practice what they preach by not knowing diddley about it.

I would love there to be some sort of afterlife that I could enjoy. The ill-defined christian heaven holds no appeal, but if after death I could continue on in some other form and enjoy the universe a bit more, I'd love it. However, my hopes for such things, my opinion that there should be an afterlife, are completely irrelevant because they do not match anything we know about death. Hence I ignore my hopes because I know there is nothing to base them on.

As Azdgari said a few posts back, the universe is not subject to your opinion. Nor is it subject to mine or anyone else's. Through science, we humans do our best to take biases out of the picture as we search for truth. (I don't for a second claim that science is without any bias. Scientists exist within cultures, and said cultures have remarkable power over individuals and institutions. But science does what it can to minimize such influences. ) Religions must, by their very nature, keep their own biases on the front line of the debate and spend most of their time insisting they are truths. They even go so far as to claim that the lack of proof is in and of itself proof that something powerful and intelligent is responsible for the universe.

I personally prefer to go where the evidence takes us, even if it means that I don't get to comfort myself in my old age about a pending "streets of gold" experience. The pursuit of truth is far more important to me than is fooling myself for my own convenience.

Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Azdgari on June 19, 2013, 08:08:37 PM
I never claimed that God existed.  It is just my opinion that He does.  I could very well be wrong, or I could very well be correct.

The existence, or lack thereof, of anything in the universe is not a matter of opinion.  It is a matter of fact that is right or wrong.

And unless you don't think your opinion is any more reasonable than the alternatives (in which case it wouldn't really be an opinion you held, would it?), you're at the very least saying that you know of good reasons to hold your opinion in contradiction of other options.  Which would still be dishonest, because you don't, hence the manner in which you're characterizing it as an opinion.

Are you pushing me man?   Did you not read what I have posted?

Yes.  Did you read what you have posted?
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 19, 2013, 08:27:42 PM
It is of course fine to have an opinion about a god existing. Postive or negative. However, if you think there is a god and then use misunderstandings and simplistic over generalizations about science to back up your opinion, you end up sounding kind of silly.

Says you.   I never said that I was here to prove anything. Ever.

It is bad enough when people fill the gaps in human knowledge with their god and say that his existence is the only explanation. But when people fill their ignorance with their god, it gets embarrassing.

Funny. I don't feel embarrassed at all. And what ignorance are you referring to?  I honestly don't care if you feel I disgraced myself or not. That would be your opinion.

If you are not inspired to learn enough about science to argue against it cogently, you might try sticking to moral issues and and leave the physical world alone. You are not helping your cause otherwise.

When did I argue against science?  Strawman much?

It is the job of science to explore, discover, invent and theorize, among other things. It is an ongoing process that will never be able to discover everything. Religion takes it upon itself to tell us it has all the important answers already. Which would be less of a problem if any of the religious explanations matched reality in useful quantities. They don't. I tend to assume that Christians and muslims in particular are very interested in there being an afterlife, and they seem forced by their hopes to mold this life in such a way that it end up looking consistent with said afterlife. Dissing science is one tactic of believers. And most practice what they preach by not knowing diddley about it.

I never "dissed" science at all.  Why are you bringing this up to me?  Please don't use your prejudice to assume that I am like all the rest. 

I would love there to be some sort of afterlife that I could enjoy. The ill-defined christian heaven holds no appeal, but if after death I could continue on in some other form and enjoy the universe a bit more, I'd love it. However, my hopes for such things, my opinion that there should be an afterlife, are completely irrelevant because they do not match anything we know about death. Hence I ignore my hopes because I know there is nothing to base them on.

The ill defined definition of Christian heaven is one of the reasons I have a tendency to lean towards Christianity in my theism.  How can something unearthly be described in a way in which we could comprehend when we have no reference to base it on?  Christ described it as paradise to one of the poor buggers hanging next to Him during the crucifixion.  Whatever it is, it must be pretty good, that is if it exists at all.

As Azdgari said a few posts back, the universe is not subject to your opinion. Nor is it subject to mine or anyone else's. Through science, we humans do our best to take biases out of the picture as we search for truth. (I don't for a second claim that science is without any bias. Scientists exist within cultures, and said cultures have remarkable power over individuals and institutions. But science does what it can to minimize such influences. ) Religions must, by their very nature, keep their own biases on the front line of the debate and spend most of their time insisting they are truths. They even go so far as to claim that the lack of proof is in and of itself proof that something powerful and intelligent is responsible for the universe.

Lack of proof is not proof.  The universe either had a sentient creator or it did not.  I don't dismiss science and I hope it does indeed one day discover how the universe was formed. Eventually it may.  The problem with science however is that it can only go back to the starting point of the universe. Anything before that would be impossible to prove.  Science can hypothesize, but that is all it can really accomplish regarding this.

I personally prefer to go where the evidence takes us, even if it means that I don't get to comfort myself in my old age about a pending "streets of gold" experience. The pursuit of truth is far more important to me than is fooling myself for my own convenience.

That's great.  You go ahead and do that.  I do not dismiss scientific truth either.   Peace.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 19, 2013, 08:44:37 PM


The existence, or lack thereof, of anything in the universe is not a matter of opinion.  It is a matter of fact that is right or wrong.
   

We don't have all  the facts. A person is allowed to have ideas and attempt to fill in the gaps.  Are you saying that what we don't know about the universe doesn't exist?   I can have the opinion that the universe was created and that is an honest opinion.  I don't care if you agree or not about this issue, and I am not going to discuss it with you any further.  Intelligent design is a possibility and that's that.

And unless you don't think your opinion is any more reasonable than the alternatives (in which case it wouldn't really be an opinion you held, would it?), you're at the very least saying that you know of good reasons to hold your opinion in contradiction of other options.  Which would still be dishonest, because you don't, hence the manner in which you're characterizing it as an opinion.

I did agree that it was an opinion that could very well be incorrect. I did not dismiss other options at all.  You are just playing a word game.  And get over this "dishonest" nonsense. I never lied to anybody here yet or to myself. I never claimed that my opinion was correct. I only claimed that it was one possibility amongst other possibilities.

Yes.  Did you read what you have posted?

Please don't push me.  I am not going to waste my time arguing semantics with you. Of course I read what I posted. I wrote the posts!   If you are here to insult me, then I am finished responding to you.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: screwtape on June 19, 2013, 08:49:01 PM
I did.  It showed nothing.  Unless Screwtape's Dog existed here before, that would be evidence of absence.  Screwtape's Dog is not absent. It was never there.

It's there, you just are not looking in the right place.  Perhaps you should open your heart to my dog?  He responds better.  You have to do it sincerely.  I mean, really, really sincerely.  Like, squeezing your eyes shut and straining (but not so hard you poop).  He'll know if you aren't.  He'll know if somewhere, deep down you are actually rejecting him.  And he only comes to people who truly believe.

Or, you could skip all that baloney and click here:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,20148.msg444285.html#msg444285

Lookee there.  Someone doubted and instead of insisting they were doing it wrong or lacked faith, I just produced evidence.  Imagine if xians could do that? 

For your future edification in case you need to search anything here, the advanced search function works best.  I did a search on "dog" and user "Screwtape". 

So, got that evidence for the nonexistence of Zeus yet?  Or are you ready to say he is as likely real as yhwh?


Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Azdgari on June 19, 2013, 08:57:41 PM
We don't have all  the facts. A person is allowed to have ideas and attempt to fill in the gaps.

Filling in the gaps without first gaining the knowledge to justify doing so is dishonest, as the gaps remain unfilled despite our protests to the contrary.

"I believe God did X" is not greatly different of a statement from "God did X".  They convey the same information.  They also imply that the speaker knows enough to justify making the statement.  Which is untrue.

Are you saying that what we don't know about the universe doesn't exist?

No.  I am saying that what we truly don't know about the universe, we can't honestly make statements about.

I can have the opinion that the universe was created and that is an honest opinion.

Lying to yourself about the state of your own knowledge is not something that concerns me.  It is when you convey that lie to others that it becomes the business of others, myself included, since I'm on here just like you are.

I don't care if you agree or not about this issue, and I am not going to discuss it with you any further.  Intelligent design is a possibility and that's that.

You don't have the knowledge needed to honestly make that statement.  You are pretending to know more than you do.  That is dishonest of you.  That you do not wish to have it pointed out to you any more isn't especially surprising.

I did agree that it was an opinion that could very well be incorrect. I did not dismiss other options at all.

Neither of these statements in any way contradicts what I wrote.  And I wrote precisely what I meant, too.

You are just playing a word game.  And get over this "dishonest" nonsense. I never lied to anybody here yet or to myself. I never claimed that my opinion was correct. I only claimed that it was one possibility amongst other possibilities.

You are back-tracking.  You put your theistic ideas forth as favored possibilities.  That means that for some reason you favor them.  Is that reason something about the idea (ie. it being more reasonable), or is that reason something about you (eg. childhood conditioning to favor theism)?  If the former, then you should stop pretending that you hold such a reason.  If the latter, then you should stop pretending that your belief is about anything other than you.

Please don't push me.  I am not going to waste my time arguing semantics with you. Of course I read what I posted. I wrote the posts!   If you are here to insult me, then I am finished responding to you.

Your "Did you not read what I have posted?" was a silly question.  I gave an equally silly one in return.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 19, 2013, 09:07:45 PM
You are back-tracking.  You put your theistic ideas forth as favored possibilities.  That means that for some reason you favor them.  Is that reason something about the idea (ie. it being more reasonable), or is that reason something about you (eg. childhood conditioning to favor theism)?  If the former, then you should stop pretending that you hold such a reason.  If the latter, then you should stop pretending that your belief is about anything other than you.

My belief certainly does involve me. I do not deny that.  However it is you who are being dishonest. I had NO childhood conditioning that caused me to become a theist. Mum dragging me to Church every Sunday actually caused me to be an atheist for some time.  And I am not pretending that I hold such a reason.  I had an experience that let be to lean towards theism. However that is for another thread. We are WAY OFF TOPIC here.

I am not pretending to be anything and I am finished discussing it with you. 
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Azdgari on June 19, 2013, 09:09:30 PM
That's why I said "eg." instead of "ie." for that part.  I was giving an example, to explain the sort of thing I was getting at.

And this after you implored me to read your posts...
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 19, 2013, 09:28:24 PM
That's why I said "eg." instead of "ie." for that part.  I was giving an example, to explain the sort of thing I was getting at.

And this after you implored me to read your posts...

Look, all I did was ask if you did...and it was dripping with sarcasm.  I just get this feeling that you are trying to purposely anger me.  I'm not into that, and this "dishonest" crap has to stop man. I am well aware that my opinions could be totally wrong. Okay?
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Azdgari on June 19, 2013, 09:35:37 PM
I mean what I'm saying genuinely.  It's not to get you angry.  I'm not always honest either.  Often I'm negligently dishonest in what I say.  So is everyone.  Being disciplined in how and whether we make statements on topics is something I feel we should all strive for.

If we would like to find one idea to fill our ignorance over another idea, then let's be honest about it and just say that we like it.  That's a statement about our own preferences, and we're authorities on our own preferences.  Right?
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 19, 2013, 09:51:13 PM
If we would like to find one idea to fill our ignorance over another idea, then let's be honest about it and just say that we like it.  That's a statement about our own preferences, and we're authorities on our own preferences.  Right?

Of course I like my preferences.  I like the idea that God may exist over the alternative.  There is nothing dishonest about that.  My opinion about it is not dishonest either. My choice to have that opinion is not dishonest as well.. 
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Azdgari on June 19, 2013, 09:54:22 PM
Of course I like my preferences.  I like the idea that God may exist over the alternative.  There is nothing dishonest about that.

Agreed.

My opinion about it is not dishonest either. My choice to have that opinion is not dishonest as well..

Depends on whether you think your opinion is based on anything other than you liking it.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: WakingDeath on June 19, 2013, 09:59:32 PM
Depends on whether you think your opinion is based on anything other than you liking it.

There is a good tangible reason as to why I lean towards theism.  I will explain it some other time in another thread. 
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Azdgari on June 19, 2013, 10:03:58 PM
Then the charge of dishonesty may not be warranted after all.  Then again, I was unaware that such a reason existed, and your insistence on it being "just your opinion" suggested that the reason either didn't exist or was pretty weak.  ;)
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: 12 Monkeys on June 19, 2013, 10:19:55 PM
Why were the inspired words from this god absent of any scientific method?

The people who wrote the bible were not scientists.
A divinly inspired writing would still be scientifically accurate ....as God IS the science behind creating things no?
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: ParkingPlaces on June 19, 2013, 10:59:51 PM
It is of course fine to have an opinion about a god existing. Postive or negative. However, if you think there is a god and then use misunderstandings and simplistic over generalizations about science to back up your opinion, you end up sounding kind of silly.

Says you.   I never said that I was here to prove anything. Ever.

I didn't use the word "prove" in my comment. I was talking about some of the things you have said that are so far off base its ridiculous. Such as:

As far as "Nessy" goes,  who is to say that we have discovered all of the lifeforms on earth.  The same could be said about Bigfoot, although I don't know how we could miss something so large, considering the technology of today. But... new species are being discovered quite often.  And since life begets life... it is logical to assume that all life spawned from the original source of life.

What's wrong with that, you ask? The problem is that it shows that you are not even casually acquainted with current biology. When you asked "who is to say that we have discovered all the lifeforms on earth", you don't seem to be aware of the fact that we discover around 20,000 new species every year. You are clearly aware that new species are possible, but your argument is not based on reality, but just something you made up in your head. Yes, you do add that "new species are being discovered quite often". But since you asked the "who is to say" question", you asked it like new species were not really all that common, so your addendum seems to indicate that you think that just a few new ones might be discovered occasionally.

Am I being nitpicky? Yep. But I have to be when people are making blanket statements based on opinion, rather than reality.

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It is bad enough when people fill the gaps in human knowledge with their god and say that his existence is the only explanation. But when people fill their ignorance with their god, it gets embarrassing.

Funny. I don't feel embarrassed at all. And what ignorance are you referring to?  I honestly don't care if you feel I disgraced myself or not. That would be your opinion.

See above.

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If you are not inspired to learn enough about science to argue against it cogently, you might try sticking to moral issues and and leave the physical world alone. You are not helping your cause otherwise.

When did I argue against science?  Strawman much?

Well, perhaps "against" was the wrong word. I probably should have worked "distain" in there instead. I was commenting on this particular post:

Because is appears that everything that has a beginning in this universe has an end.  Therefore whatever/whoever created the universe would have to be infinite. If the universe had a beginning, which most scientists say it did, something had to be the catalyst to cause it to exist. Something just cannot start on it's own unless something else forces it to do so.

Your statement "Therefore whatever/whoever created the universe would have to be infinite" is an assumption that you are wording as if it is a fact. It may be, but we don't know that. That "we" includes you. You appear to be going through the standard believer routine of being incredulous that something could appear out of nothing. Complete nothing. Yet that is one of the possible scenarios. In other words, you know nothing about nothing, and that is a shortcoming.

Again, you are allowed to believe that god did all this stuff, but you shouldn't be tossing in science that you don't understand very well as proof of said god. Your blanket statement in this case did not impress.

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It is the job of science to explore, discover, invent and theorize, among other things. It is an ongoing process that will never be able to discover everything. Religion takes it upon itself to tell us it has all the important answers already. Which would be less of a problem if any of the religious explanations matched reality in useful quantities. They don't. I tend to assume that Christians and muslims in particular are very interested in there being an afterlife, and they seem forced by their hopes to mold this life in such a way that it end up looking consistent with said afterlife. Dissing science is one tactic of believers. And most practice what they preach by not knowing diddley about it.

I never "dissed" science at all.  Why are you bringing this up to me?  Please don't use your prejudice to assume that I am like all the rest.
 

I haven't seen any sign that you respect science, so I used "diss" to describe your attitude. If I am wrong, you need merely make sure your statements about science reflect a basic knowledge of the subject at hand. Right now you sound like someone who may, and I stress the word may, have rushed through a wikipedia article or two before posting.

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I would love there to be some sort of afterlife that I could enjoy. The ill-defined christian heaven holds no appeal, but if after death I could continue on in some other form and enjoy the universe a bit more, I'd love it. However, my hopes for such things, my opinion that there should be an afterlife, are completely irrelevant because they do not match anything we know about death. Hence I ignore my hopes because I know there is nothing to base them on.

The ill defined definition of Christian heaven is one of the reasons I have a tendency to lean towards Christianity in my theism.  How can something unearthly be described in a way in which we could comprehend when we have no reference to base it on?  Christ described it as paradise to one of the poor buggers hanging next to Him during the crucifixion.  Whatever it is, it must be pretty good, that is if it exists at all.

See, that didn't hurt, did it. You said something about your beliefs without tossing in misunderstood science to back yourself up. That's what I have been hoping for.

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As Azdgari said a few posts back, the universe is not subject to your opinion. Nor is it subject to mine or anyone else's. Through science, we humans do our best to take biases out of the picture as we search for truth. (I don't for a second claim that science is without any bias. Scientists exist within cultures, and said cultures have remarkable power over individuals and institutions. But science does what it can to minimize such influences. ) Religions must, by their very nature, keep their own biases on the front line of the debate and spend most of their time insisting they are truths. They even go so far as to claim that the lack of proof is in and of itself proof that something powerful and intelligent is responsible for the universe.

Lack of proof is not proof.  The universe either had a sentient creator or it did not.  I don't dismiss science and I hope it does indeed one day discover how the universe was formed. Eventually it may.  The problem with science however is that it can only go back to the starting point of the universe. Anything before that would be impossible to prove.  Science can hypothesize, but that is all it can really accomplish regarding this.

Not necessarily true. Physicists are looking at the possibility that some of the movement in our universe is caused by other universes tugging on it. And they feel confident that if that is the case, they can show evidence for it. They are also exploring the possibility that black holes form new universes, and are looking into that. If they can convincingly demonstrate that to be the case, then they don't have to look back in our universe to see how it was formed. They would only need to look at black holes in our universe to see how they formed other ones. This is of course currently conjecture (though strongly backed by mathematics), but your use of the blanket statement "impossible to prove" was out of place.

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I personally prefer to go where the evidence takes us, even if it means that I don't get to comfort myself in my old age about a pending "streets of gold" experience. The pursuit of truth is far more important to me than is fooling myself for my own convenience.

That's great.  You go ahead and do that.  I do not dismiss scientific truth either.   Peace.

And so right after you replied to me, you said in your next post:

We don't have all  the facts. A person is allowed to have ideas and attempt to fill in the gaps.  Are you saying that what we don't know about the universe doesn't exist?   I can have the opinion that the universe was created and that is an honest opinion.  I don't care if you agree or not about this issue, and I am not going to discuss it with you any further.  Intelligent design is a possibility and that's that.

Yep, people are allowed to have ideas and fill in the gaps, but it becomes harmful if they start believing what they have made up. And the way you  word your posts, it often sounds like that is the case with you. I too have opinions and ideas about the universe, but I don't for a second think that any of them are accurate, because, if for no other reason, I don't think I my brain is capable of coming up with anything fantastic enough to be right. I do it for fun, not for philosophical justification.

The effect of making up your own science is the same as dismissing the real thing. That you politely mix real science with your own opinions does not make the outcome much better.

I was suggesting that you be careful with your statements about science, because you are not demonstrating a high level of proficiency, yet you are basing some of your philosophical stances on your assumptions. That is a bad idea.

For you, for me, for anyone, being wrong is problem enough. Being wrong for bad reasons is worse.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Anfauglir on June 20, 2013, 04:11:52 AM
So if there are stories about Zeus, and stories about Yahweh, what is it that makes one's existence more plausible than the other?
There are stories about Christopher Columbus as well.  What makes his previous existence plausible?

People do not have any spiritual experiences involving Zeus, nor are there any prophets of Zeus. 

So existence is based on whether people make claims about a god, or preach about them?

Well, that must then mean that Allah truly exists.  That all the Hindu gods exist.  And, sorry to say, by those standards, Zeus exists.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6283907.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6283907.stm)
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: lux et veritas on July 04, 2013, 01:14:03 PM
No. God does not love anyone in hell .God forsakes  all those who go to hell
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: ParkingPlaces on July 04, 2013, 01:48:49 PM
welcome lux

We're obviously going to disagree about everything, but what fun would a discussion forum be without such things.

One of the problems/interesting things that we have to deal with around here are the myriad versions of various christian concepts, like hell and heaven and the historicity of Jesus and the flood and stuff like that. And hence, when a new christian shows up with his or her point of view, we have to spend a little white eking out their individual and usually very customized versions of said religion. As an example, we get christians here who say there isn't really a hell, and others who say hell is a place you go for awhile, but not forever, and others say you go there but it so hot you won't survive long. You get the idea. Lots of individual interpretations. So if you are going to join in on our conversations (and I hope you do) please realize that short little statements like the one you made above are very uninformative if not accompanied by enough detail. We need to be able to flesh out why we disagree with you, and terse statements are not very useful in that regard.

You are unique, lux. Just like every other christian we've had show up here. Because no two have been alike in their interpretation of  the bible. Some show up sounding like fundamentalists then they tell us they don't believe the flood ever happened, while others seem quite liberal in those areas but they come down hard on the hell story. And all that confusion, caused by christian participants who do not detail their version of christianity soon enough and we atheists who jump to conclusions because we erroneously assume the christian B is just like christian A because both sort of define hell or the flood or the importance of John the Baptist in similar ways.

This is just a heads up. You can do with it as you wish. I, of course, assume that there is no hell because there is no god and hence cannot take the subject of this thread seriously. But the subject of christians customizing their religion in infinite ways? That I can take seriously.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: lux et veritas on July 04, 2013, 01:58:10 PM
I appreciate the heads up. I will not try to prove that God exists or does not exist because .neither position can be proven.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Azdgari on July 04, 2013, 02:37:43 PM
That is true in the same sense than neither position about the flatness or roundness of the Earth can be proven, as a matter of absolute logical deduction.  However, the nonexistence of particular gods, or sub-sets of gods, is pretty conclusively demonstrated.

Neither of which is the topic of this thread, of course.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: SkyWriting on July 05, 2013, 09:23:42 AM
That is true in the same sense than neither position about the flatness or roundness of the Earth can be proven, as a matter of absolute logical deduction.  However, the nonexistence of particular gods, or sub-sets of gods, is pretty conclusively demonstrated.

Neither of which is the topic of this thread, of course.

The flatness and roundness of the earth are both descriptors.   Everyone uses flat descriptors in modern day just as they did in the past.  There is nothing in our modern language that even suggests the earth is round.  Airplane pilots or boat captains don't use globes for navigating.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: naemhni on July 05, 2013, 09:35:52 AM
Everyone uses flat descriptors in modern day just as they did in the past.  There is nothing in our modern language that even suggests the earth is round.

That's simply due to convention, nothing more.  We also still say that the sun rises and sets, even though we know that that's not actually what's happening.

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Airplane pilots or boat captains don't use globes for navigating.

Of course they don't.  It wouldn't be practical.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: SkyWriting on July 05, 2013, 10:01:10 AM
Everyone uses flat descriptors in modern day just as they did in the past.  There is nothing in our modern language that even suggests the earth is round.

That's simply due to convention, nothing more.  We also still say that the sun rises and sets, even though we know that that's not actually what's happening.

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Airplane pilots or boat captains don't use globes for navigating.

Of course they don't.  It wouldn't be practical.

The Bible is well known for using practical, common language over technical language.
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Quesi on July 05, 2013, 10:25:57 AM

The Bible is well known for using practical, common language over technical language.

At least for those of us who are native speakers of Aramaic, Ancient Greek and Hebrew!
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: William on July 05, 2013, 10:45:59 AM
The Bible is well known for using practical, common language over technical language.

Hahaha  ;D , well practical common language doesn't mean it's useful or valid.

Would you even bother trying this for leprosy:
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Leviticus 14

1 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,  2 “This shall be the law of the leper for the day of his cleansing. He shall be brought to the priest.  3 And the priest shall go out of the camp, and the priest shall examine him; and indeed, if the leprosy is healed in the leper,  4 then the priest shall command to take for him who is to be cleansed two living and clean birds, cedar wood, scarlet, and hyssop.  5 And the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed  in an earthen vessel over running water.  6 As for the living bird, he shall take it, the cedar wood and the scarlet and the hyssop, and dip them and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water.  7 And he shall sprinkle it seven times  on him who is to be cleansed from the leprosy, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose in the open field.  8 He who is to be cleansed shall wash his clothes, shave off all his hair, and wash himself in water, that he may be clean. After that he shall come into the camp, and shall stay outside his tent seven days.  9 But on the seventh day he shall shave all the hair off his head and his beard and his eyebrows—all his hair he shall shave off. He shall wash his clothes and wash his body in water, and he shall be clean.

10 “And on the eighth day he shall take two male lambs without blemish, one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish, three-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering, and one log of oil.  11 Then the priest who makes him clean shall present the man who is to be made clean, and those things, before the Lord, at the door of the tabernacle of meeting.  12 And the priest shall take one male lamb and offer it as a trespass offering, and the log of oil, and wave them as a wave offering before the Lord.  13 Then he shall kill the lamb  in the place where he kills the sin offering and the burnt offering, in a holy place; for as the sin offering is the priest’s, so is the trespass offering. It is most holy.  14 The priest shall take some of the blood of the trespass offering, and the priest shall put it on the tip of the right ear  of him who is to be cleansed, on the thumb of his right hand, and on the big toe of his right foot.  15 And the priest shall take some of the log of oil, and pour it into the palm of his own left hand.  16 Then the priest shall dip his right finger  in the oil that is in his left hand, and shall sprinkle some of the oil with his finger seven times before the Lord.  17 And of the rest of the oil in his hand, the priest shall put some on the tip of the right ear of him who is to be cleansed, on the thumb of his right hand, and on the big toe of his right foot, on the blood of the trespass offering.  18 The rest of the oil that is in the priest’s hand he shall put on the head of him who is to be cleansed. So the priest shall make atonement for him before the Lord.


That all sounds totally practical hey?  :o  :laugh:  Folks that was GOD SPEAKING  to Moses :police:
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Quesi on July 05, 2013, 11:18:16 AM
The Bible is well known for using practical, common language over technical language.

Hahaha  ;D , well practical common language doesn't mean it's useful or valid.

Would you even bother trying this for leprosy:
Quote
Leviticus 14

1 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,  2 “This shall be the law of the leper for the day of his cleansing. He shall be brought to the priest.  3 And the priest shall go out of the camp, and the priest shall examine him; and indeed, if the leprosy is healed in the leper,  4 then the priest shall command to take for him who is to be cleansed two living and clean birds, cedar wood, scarlet, and hyssop.  5 And the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed  in an earthen vessel over running water.  6 As for the living bird, he shall take it, the cedar wood and the scarlet and the hyssop, and dip them and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water.  7 And he shall sprinkle it seven times  on him who is to be cleansed from the leprosy, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose in the open field.  8 He who is to be cleansed shall wash his clothes, shave off all his hair, and wash himself in water, that he may be clean. After that he shall come into the camp, and shall stay outside his tent seven days.  9 But on the seventh day he shall shave all the hair off his head and his beard and his eyebrows—all his hair he shall shave off. He shall wash his clothes and wash his body in water, and he shall be clean.

10 “And on the eighth day he shall take two male lambs without blemish, one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish, three-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering, and one log of oil.  11 Then the priest who makes him clean shall present the man who is to be made clean, and those things, before the Lord, at the door of the tabernacle of meeting.  12 And the priest shall take one male lamb and offer it as a trespass offering, and the log of oil, and wave them as a wave offering before the Lord.  13 Then he shall kill the lamb  in the place where he kills the sin offering and the burnt offering, in a holy place; for as the sin offering is the priest’s, so is the trespass offering. It is most holy.  14 The priest shall take some of the blood of the trespass offering, and the priest shall put it on the tip of the right ear  of him who is to be cleansed, on the thumb of his right hand, and on the big toe of his right foot.  15 And the priest shall take some of the log of oil, and pour it into the palm of his own left hand.  16 Then the priest shall dip his right finger  in the oil that is in his left hand, and shall sprinkle some of the oil with his finger seven times before the Lord.  17 And of the rest of the oil in his hand, the priest shall put some on the tip of the right ear of him who is to be cleansed, on the thumb of his right hand, and on the big toe of his right foot, on the blood of the trespass offering.  18 The rest of the oil that is in the priest’s hand he shall put on the head of him who is to be cleansed. So the priest shall make atonement for him before the Lord.


That all sounds totally practical hey?  :o  :laugh:  Folks that was GOD SPEAKING  to Moses :police:

This all seems perfectly reasonable to me.  William?  How do YOU deal with lepers? 

You just follow the instructions. The birds, the blood, the ceder wood and hyssop, 7 sprinkles, unblemished lambs, the trespass offering, the right thumb, the big toe, the left palm, 7 more sprinkles. 

I'm pretty sure that the CDC makes the same recommendations, and are equally clear about the proper procedures. 
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: Astreja on July 05, 2013, 12:22:05 PM
I'm pretty sure that the CDC makes the same recommendations, and are equally clear about the proper procedures.

Centre for Delusion Continuation?  :D
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: William on July 05, 2013, 12:34:14 PM
This all seems perfectly reasonable to me.  William?  How do YOU deal with lepers?

Quesi, first thing I'd do with a leper is ask them if they want to be dropped off somewhere.
Somewhere safe and scientific, somewhere far far far away from Leviticus 14  :blank:
Title: Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
Post by: jynnan tonnix on July 06, 2013, 01:24:12 PM

My belief certainly does involve me. I do not deny that.  However it is you who are being dishonest. I had NO childhood conditioning that caused me to become a theist. Mum dragging me to Church every Sunday actually caused me to be an atheist for some time.  And I am not pretending that I hold such a reason.  I had an experience that let be to lean towards theism. However that is for another thread. We are WAY OFF TOPIC here.

I am not pretending to be anything and I am finished discussing it with you.

Because this looks as though it might have gotten lost in the shuffle...

Walking Death, don't you see how this works? Yes, you rebelled against going to church. Let's face it, for most denominations, it's probably not something kids are going to be particularly drawn to. And kids are pretty much wired to rebel against their parents during adolescence anyway. So, yeah, it's not at all uncommon to see them straying away, either for a short while or for a longer one. Or forever, for that matter. Some do break free.

But many, probably most, are still influenced by the beliefs of their parents. Whether they want it to or mean it to, that indoctrination seeps into their unconscious, and it takes a real force of will to separate it from fact when you, in your turn, get old enough to start pondering your own mortality.

However you felt about being forced to attend services in your youth, those are going to be the first messages which come to the surface when you begin searching for life's meanings, or answers as to an afterlife. You learned them when you were still totally credulous, and the fact that you questioned them at some point doesn't mean that they are not still as much a part of your makeup as any other nostalgia. It's comforting to retreat to those beliefs when you start to really experience your own insignificance in the universe.

That does not make them true, or even more likely than the beliefs of anyone else who retreated to what they were taught when they were young.