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Community Zone => Chatter => Topic started by: Karl on June 04, 2013, 03:42:00 PM

Title: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Karl on June 04, 2013, 03:42:00 PM
Just a question. And placed in the Chatter section so no one is offended.

No prove or traces of god? Is that true? How did the people living in Egypt thousands of years ago move blocks of stone 2000 tons of weight? How did cavemen work out aerodynamics. Is it not possible that there are supreme beings? Not gods, sort of the stargate stuff. Why reject god if in fact he might be very real? Just a little different from what the church preaches. I do not believe in a god. But what if the guy who shows up has good arguments to make me do what he wants me to do? Politics and religion used to be the same sort of trash so the question is not about religion. Should we not look into our past and maybe discover that we are not almighty?
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: One Above All on June 04, 2013, 03:50:14 PM
Just a question. And placed in the Chatter section so no one is offended.

I always wonder if I'm wrong about pretty much everything. Then I analyze the evidence. I'm still a gnostic atheist. Doesn't that tell you something?

No prove or traces of god? Is that true?

Very much so.

How did the people living in Egypt thousands of years ago move blocks of stone 2000 tons of weight?

Because they were smart. I dunno what the English name for them is, but with enough of round little thingies (best description ever, amirite?), you could theoretically lift a car by yourself.

How did cavemen work out aerodynamics.

Who said they did?
Still, it's not that tough to observe birds and draw conclusions from that.

Is it not possible that there are supreme beings? Not gods, sort of the stargate stuff.

"Supreme beings"? Highly unlikely, but possible. IMO, with enough knowledge, one could qualify as a god for those who would accept an imperfect being.

Why reject god if in fact he might be very real?

If there is a god, it does not deserve worship. Just look at the universe for proof. If you don't like the universe, look at our little corner of it.

Just a little different from what the church preaches. I do not believe in a god. But what if the guy who shows up has good arguments to make me do what he wants me to do?

Arguments by themselves are meaningless on some (most?) subjects. In those cases, evidence is what decides everything.

Politics and religion used to be the same sort of trash so the question is not about religion. Should we not look into our past and maybe discover that we are not almighty?

Who said we were almighty? I mean, I know I am, but who said you were?
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Karl on June 04, 2013, 04:01:55 PM
Right. No traces of god, didn't identify them either. But it is like my mother in law looking at a book. She can't read.

Antique construction still is worth discussing. No god, but sure advanced knowledge.

Aerodynamics, yes they did. All bugs are winged by the shoulders.  Not the one that was found in the precolumbian sites. They amplified it and built it. The thing flies. No hearsay. My friend in Paris robbed the site himself and my father built the model.

I agree, no worshipping.

Evidence has to be identified as such. Patterns are meaningless if not recognized and understood, reference to my mother in law again. I admit that most of the things around me I do not understand. I might want to take my pills again.

Almighty, far from it. Sometimes my dog listens to me though.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Graybeard on June 04, 2013, 04:17:28 PM
No prove or traces of god? Is that true?
Yes.
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How did the people living in Egypt thousands of years ago move blocks of stone 2000 tons of weight?
Quite easily: http://ancientaliensdebunked.com/references-and-transcripts/the-pyramids/

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How did cavemen work out aerodynamics.
Trial and error
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Is it not possible that there are supreme beings?
No, there are none. (Anyway, as a matter of logic, you can only have one "Supreme Being.")

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Not gods, sort of the stargate stuff.
You're underemployed and watching too much Stargate.

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Why reject god if in fact he might be very real?
Why not hunt unicorns if they might be real?

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Just a little different from what the church preaches.
No, not really, all religion and politics is a sky-pixie/political party who has our best interests at heart.

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I do not believe in a god. But what if the guy who shows up has good arguments to make me do what he wants me to do?

Read more posts, you will have an answer for him.

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Politics and religion used to be the same sort of trash so the question is not about religion. Should we not look into our past and maybe discover that we are not almighty?

Our past tells us that we hominids are the greatest species ever to inhabit this planet. We are as good as it gets. (Which, when I consider the Education Board of Kansas, is quite depressing.)
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Seppuku on June 04, 2013, 04:23:44 PM
Like OAA, I question my own knowledge. It is how I ended up where I am. I still now think, "well, what if I could be wrong about that" and when I do, I look it up, I try to find out what I can and educate myself.

I accept the possibility that a supreme being, whatever it may be, exists. However the evidence to suggest such a thing is so insignificant, I don't find it's worth believing. Just like I don't believe unicorns, leprechauns or SpongeBob. All of those things have equal believability in my eyes. I will accept there's a possibility for each of them, yes, even SpongeBob, but I may not necessarily see credit due to the lack of support. In the case of SpongeBob, remember we don't understand how the universe works 100%, I would have to accept the possibility that a world where the human imagination has a creative power (in that it is able to create real things), kind of like the South Park episode called 'Imagination Land' or maybe Stephen Hillenburg actually based his cartoon on a real sea sponge he encountered diving, we could be talking about a part of the ocean he's not been able to find and probably kept his mouth shut due to the mockery he would receive in telling people SpongeBob is real. There are in an infinite number of 'possibilities' due to lack of knowledge, but it doesn't mean I get to pick and choose what's 'true' to fill in those gaps.

What I find people who believe there's evidence for supreme beings, be it a deity or aliens or whatever, what they call evidence is generally untested and is dependent on how they choose to interpret what's there. Give your analogy about reading isn't giving me much reassurances about what you'd consider evidence. It's not about how you 'see' things. Evidence is about looking what's there, piecing it with other evidence, sure you may create a hypothesis, but it doesn't really stand until the evidence is highly conclusive.

I would say as it stands the 'supreme' remains as a hypothesis. Exactly what evidence is there? What people tend to do is use the 'god of the gaps' argument and in the case of other supreme beings (usually aliens) a 'supreme being of the gaps' argument, which is basically, "I don't understand this, so a supreme being must have done it". People can't accept that marvels of ancient society couldn't have been created by ancient civilisation, because they simply would have not been able. Who says they're not able? Who says they needed the assistance of a higher being? Humanity itself is capable of great and fantastic things, we can see this with modern marvels, I mean for Christ sakes, I'm creating this post with a device made of metal and plastic fed by electricity. No supreme beings invented the computer, the internet nor have they possessed the power to harness electricity to bring us devices powered by electricity. These much more modern marvels are well documented and we know how the discoveries were made.

So it always baffles me that when we have such amazing things we take for granted today that people in ancient society weren't also capable of doing amazing things.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: neopagan on June 04, 2013, 04:34:01 PM
Maybe this is covered elsewhere, but why is the default position that if something more powerful or "godlike" shows up then the thing to do is worship it?  I deal with some real jerks everyday more powerful than I (within the realm of work), and it never crosses my mind to worship.  Why so with gods or "supreme beings"? 

If such a thing demanded your worship, then I guess that's on you to decide, but why is the assumption that one would "naturally" worship that thing?


Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Karl on June 04, 2013, 04:45:08 PM
Thanks for your kind posts Seppuku and Greybeard.

The quoting gets a little complicated so I just answer and you will know what I refer to.

The construction link was informative. It still it puzzles me why people do these things whilst they could actually go look for food. Anyway, they did.

I am not underemployed. But I do find things boring and even though I run one of the largest vehicles on this planet, it is boring. And I have no TV.

I'll just sit it out and probably god doesn't show up.

Of course I am not at all educated in most matters, just the ones I know. But it frustrates me to see how Galaxies obviously work, I can know the chemical processes, study biology and look for answers. The fact that in the end I am running into a wall that I cannot pass angers me. Then again, in daily life I can still enjoy a BBQ.






Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Karl on June 04, 2013, 04:50:15 PM
Maybe this is covered elsewhere, but why is the default position that if something more powerful or "godlike" shows up then the thing to do is worship it?  I deal with some real jerks everyday more powerful than I (within the realm of work), and it never crosses my mind to worship.  Why so with gods or "supreme beings"? 

If such a thing demanded your worship, then I guess that's on you to decide, but why is the assumption that one would "naturally" worship that thing?

I do not worship as I do not believe in God. And I have to deal wit A..holes often enough. Maybe it is the longing for somebody being responsible and caring for one, like parents? I made the experience that the people who work for me want me to take decisions for them, they are awaiting the word. After they can either complain or have a party. Might it be that?
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Nick on June 04, 2013, 05:56:56 PM
Must be watching too much Ancient Aliens and Stargate SG1.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 04, 2013, 06:37:23 PM
This falls under the category of any sufficiently advanced being seeming "godlike" to less advanced beings. But it would have to be pretty damn advanced.

I freaked out the African children in the village I lived in by taking my retainer out of my mouth. They thought I could remove the roof of my mouth. Nowadays some of them probably have braces themselves, so that's out as a Halloween party trick.

Imagine what a person in the Middle Ages would think of things as common today as a dishwasher, brain surgery, tinted contact lenses, prosthetic limbs or a cell phone that plays Star Trek videos.[1]
 1. Saw a young Latino guy last week in the airport, probably Iraq vet, with two very high-tech prosthetic legs like that runner in S. Africa.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: kin hell on June 04, 2013, 08:39:04 PM

Aerodynamics, yes they did. All bugs are winged by the shoulders.  Not the one that was found in the precolumbian sites. They amplified it and built it. The thing flies. No hearsay. My friend in Paris robbed the site himself and my father built the model.


can you expand on this please
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Karl on June 04, 2013, 10:17:43 PM
Must be watching too much Ancient Aliens and Stargate SG1.
No, whilst I would probably enjoy it, no TV because I am at sea, no reception.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Karl on June 04, 2013, 10:35:32 PM

Aerodynamics, yes they did. All bugs are winged by the shoulders.  Not the one that was found in the precolumbian sites. They amplified it and built it. The thing flies. No hearsay. My friend in Paris robbed the site himself and my father built the model.


can you expand on this please
Yes I can. But you have probably read most of it already. They found this scarabae but it has the wings low. Bugs or maybe beetles is the better word do not exist with that characteristic. I told my father. He has a friend who was employed in Airbus Industries in Bremen/Germany. They build a scanned model at scale. It was actually better than recently built commercial airplanes.

The finder I met during a flight from Bogota to Madrid. I held the scarabae, which was made from gold, in my hands when I accepted his invitation to Paris and went there to see him. I was working in Marseilles at the time. He has other artifacts too.

I do think that we are not the first technologically advanced culture. No gods or aliens involved.

Imagine what a person in the Middle Ages would think of things as common today as a dishwasher, brain surgery, tinted contact lenses, prosthetic limbs or a cell phone that plays Star Trek videos.
True, but we are just the same. What else is there? And the question, can my dog open the fridge?
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Nam on June 04, 2013, 11:23:58 PM
I'm always right, except when I'm not.

-Nam
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: kin hell on June 05, 2013, 12:21:27 AM

Yes I can. But you have probably read most of it already.

sorry mate, never heard of it, you got a link?
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Fiji on June 05, 2013, 12:46:17 AM
Maybe this is covered elsewhere, but why is the default position that if something more powerful or "godlike" shows up then the thing to do is worship it?  I deal with some real jerks everyday more powerful than I (within the realm of work), and it never crosses my mind to worship.  Why so with gods or "supreme beings"? 

If such a thing demanded your worship, then I guess that's on you to decide, but why is the assumption that one would "naturally" worship that thing?

Because that's what we're used to from the Abrahamic monotheistic gods[1]. They demand worship and lay down the hurt if you don't. It's not like you have a choice in the matter.
And this appears in other fictional tales too. Ancient Greek myths are filled with people neglecting the worship of the gods and suffering for it. And there are plenty of scifi tales where the aliens come here to subjegate us and yes, you had better worship them. "They can hurt me, so I'd better be nice to them"
Remember when Kim Jong-Il died? The 'spontaneous' outpour of grief? Just in case the not-so-secret police would think they weren't suffuciently upset.
Or those old clip of the Stalin's speeches ... where no one dared be the first to stop applauding.

In my experience, people who actually deserve worship never seem to actually want it.
 1. now there's an oxymoron for you
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Fiji on June 05, 2013, 01:02:18 AM
The construction link was informative. It still it puzzles me why people do these things whilst they could actually go look for food. Anyway, they did.
Because Egypt happened to be a place that produced loads and loads of food. More than they needed, even. So, not all Egyptians needed to work at collecting food. These people could be employed as artisans, builders or professional soldiers.
That's why the people in ancient Arabia never built anything so grand, they WERE too busy not starving.

Of course I am not at all educated in most matters, just the ones I know. But it frustrates me to see how Galaxies obviously work, I can know the chemical processes, study biology and look for answers. The fact that in the end I am running into a wall that I cannot pass angers me. Then again, in daily life I can still enjoy a BBQ.

It pisses me off too. I too like to know for the sake of knowing. But at some point, quantum theory, string theory, sorry, I just can't grasp it to a meaningful extent anymore. But it is comforting to know that there are people out there who do understand that stuff and who are working on figuring out new stuff. Sure, it would be neat if aliens sudden showed up, explained centuries worth of science to us, took a few snapshots of the Eifel tower and went home, leaving us unmolested. But we'll get there on our own eventually.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Anfauglir on June 05, 2013, 02:30:32 AM

Yes I can. But you have probably read most of it already.

sorry mate, never heard of it, you got a link?

Yep, me neither.  Link/s would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: sun_king on June 05, 2013, 05:30:03 AM
Yes I can. But you have probably read most of it already.

No, never heard of it and I happen to work in that industry. Any link would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Karl on June 05, 2013, 03:35:23 PM
I met the french gentlemen about 15 years ago. The Airbus Engineer who actually built models with me and my brother is Mr. Klaus Rudolph. I then did not have the subject in mind until I saw a documentary in History.com.

They have independently built models of Egyptian and precolombian findings. Whilst I have no personal knowledge of the Egyptian ones I held a precolumbian in my hands.

Whilst there is always the risk of hoax I reacted differently since I knew of the matter from personal experience. I did not hold a Chinese toy in my hands whilst in criminal investigation even that might be a possibility.

I am referring to the findings/opinions of Dr. Uwe Apel, Dr. Algund Engboom, Mr. Simon Sanderson and Giorgio A. Tsoukalos. These as I said only re attracted my attention.

I have no means of High speed Internet searches but I hope you find the information helpful.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Truth OT on June 05, 2013, 05:45:59 PM
Personally, I find it very likely that beings that could be labeled as gods exist somewhere in this vast universe. Surely some more advanced intelligent life thrives and has learned things about the way the universe works and how to manipulate things within this cosmos in a way that the typical human would consider as being miraculous.

What I don't find likely is that mankind has ever encountered or communicated with such beings as evidence for such interactions is lacking. Who knows though, if we live and evolve long enough our  decendants may become what many of our contempories would consider as 'godly.'
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Truth OT on June 05, 2013, 05:55:04 PM
Maybe this is covered elsewhere, but why is the default position that if something more powerful or "godlike" shows up then the thing to do is worship it?  I deal with some real jerks everyday more powerful than I (within the realm of work), and it never crosses my mind to worship.  Why so with gods or "supreme beings"? 

If such a thing demanded your worship, then I guess that's on you to decide, but why is the assumption that one would "naturally" worship that thing?

I think the most likely answer is because we as a species are still somewhat stupid and our base level lack of critical thinking tends to lead us to formulate the 'worship conclusion.' A lot of it has to do with egotism as well I believe. When we were more tribal as a species, god worship was more prevailent and virtually mandated as groups competed for power their respective god or gods were lauded above the competing people's faux deities. As we have matured, this attitude still shows up by way of things like nationalism and the tendancy to want our leaders to be more powerful than those of other nations. Everyone wants to either be at the head of the table or have a representative of theirs in that favored position. So in conclusion, my God's better than yours and that makes me and my people special, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah!!!!
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Tero on June 05, 2013, 06:23:09 PM
I'm in awe of cavemen scientists. Without help they discovered chipping of rock. Of early farmers, of bronze age scientists. They discoverd relationships in types of matter. Some melted (metal) in pottery ovens. A lot of science is empirical, not theory. Engineering solutions.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: kin hell on June 05, 2013, 09:57:59 PM
I'm in awe of cavemen scientists. Without help they discovered chipping of rock. Of early farmers, of bronze age scientists. They discoverd relationships in types of matter. Some melted (metal) in pottery ovens. A lot of science is empirical, not theory. Engineering solutions.

Agreed, I built a full sized authentic traditional teepee (one of the many designs) to live in for a season in the snow in the Kosciuzko National Park.
While the season changed dramatically for me and I didn't end up living in the teepee after all (and I've always somewhat regretted that), I have to say that in coming to understand the thinking behind each and every aspect of the complex design (and it is so very much more complex than I'd first thought) I was stunned how time and needs can cause simple technologies to evolve to become "best practice".

Teepee construction is old, (thousands of years), and it evolved during that time.
The Plains Indian design I built was the pinnacle of the science.
The science was limited only by the materials to hand.
eg. the Northern Woodland tribes did not know how to weave cloth, but when they got onto the Great Plains mounted on horses, then bison became a new raw material to work with. Their primary innovation was learning how to
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cure and sew together sufficiently large sheets of bison leather in order to cover a teepee frame.
http://www.examiner.com/article/america-s-architectural-heritage-the-teepee-north-america-s-first-mobile-home (http://www.examiner.com/article/america-s-architectural-heritage-the-teepee-north-america-s-first-mobile-home)
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Willie on June 05, 2013, 10:10:04 PM
The precolombian gold flying thing is mentioned in this video, starting at about 0:08:30. I also caught one of the names that you had mentioned (Algund Engboom).

http://youtu.be/y2QmRCvfrRY

Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: sun_king on June 05, 2013, 11:54:34 PM
I met the french gentlemen about 15 years ago. The Airbus Engineer who actually built models with me and my brother is Mr. Klaus Rudolph. I then did not have the subject in mind until I saw a documentary in History.com.

They have independently built models of Egyptian and precolombian findings. Whilst I have no personal knowledge of the Egyptian ones I held a precolumbian in my hands.

Whilst there is always the risk of hoax I reacted differently since I knew of the matter from personal experience. I did not hold a Chinese toy in my hands whilst in criminal investigation even that might be a possibility.

I am referring to the findings/opinions of Dr. Uwe Apel, Dr. Algund Engboom, Mr. Simon Sanderson and Giorgio A. Tsoukalos. These as I said only re attracted my attention.

I have no means of High speed Internet searches but I hope you find the information helpful.

The same speed required to post on this page would suffice for the search. And I did some searching.

The Quimbaya airplanes are better than the modern commercial ones??? I beg to differ and so does the industry, that is why you don't find a low delta winged commercial airplane in service.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quimbaya_airplanes
http://sites.matrix.msu.edu/pseudoarchaeology/2010/10/12/ancient-airplanes-sleep-with-the-fishes/

PS: It is not always advisable to base an argument on a pseudoscience or conspiracy theory documentary.
 1. The Concorde and the Tu-144 fits the bill, but they went out of service for a reason.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: screwtape on June 06, 2013, 07:07:57 AM
http://sites.matrix.msu.edu/pseudoarchaeology/2010/10/12/ancient-airplanes-sleep-with-the-fishes/

If you look at the one on the bottom of this page, the one they compare to a moth, it kind of looks like a man's head with a headdress on. 
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Anfauglir on June 06, 2013, 07:41:04 AM
I think the most important thing for me is this.  Take a look at this page, at the pictures of the alleged airplane, and of the cacique.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quimbaya_civilization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quimbaya_civilization)

Karl suggests that the fish-shaped thing is an exact model of an airplane that they saw - so exact that (if you build one to those specification) it will fly.  Super, perhaps it does.

But now look at the cacique, a model of a chief of their tribe.  A human.  Note the alarming difference in size between his feet, and his head.  If we assume his head is of normal size (8-9" across, roughly), then this guy's feet were about 2" wide and 4" long - about the size of a toddler.  His arms have the same circumference as his legs, his shoulders would be about 3 feet across, his ears have no holes in them.....if you saw this guy walking towards you, you'd turn and run.  Though he probably wouldn't be able to walk at all, his centre of gravity would be waaay too high, he'd just topple over.

And that's my point.  For the "airplane" theory to work, we must assume that the Quimbaya made exact scale models of working aircraft.....but at the same time felt that scale and proportion were totally irrelevant when modelling anything else.

Take a look also at http://www.nmai.si.edu/searchcollections/results.aspx?regid=2736 (http://www.nmai.si.edu/searchcollections/results.aspx?regid=2736).  Not one thing there is decent scale replica of the creature it purports to represent.  The frog is close, but still looks more like a mole, and seems to have flippers instead of front feet.

So I don't buy it.  If a plane built using ONE of the seven potential figures flew - and remember, only ONE of the seven could be made into a working plane, and then only if a LOT of the decoration was left off - then that's chance, pure and simple.  Otherwise, you need to explain why their ability to make an exact scale representation of one thing they witnessed suddenly deserted them when they came to make models of....well, everything else.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 06, 2013, 04:36:00 PM
^^^^Agreed. We have to be careful of how we evaluate different cultures. People don't always represent reality exactly when drawing or sculpting nowadays-- why would we assume they were always accurately representing reality in the past? Nobody really looks like people in a Picasso or Matisse painting, and nothing looks like what Dali painted, thanks be to Thor.

In Ancient Egyptian art, men were often painted in dark brown or red colors and women were tan or beige. Does that mean that men and women were of different races? Or is it more likely that color was associated with gender in some way?

In Hindu art, gods are shown with many arms and heads. That is not what people think their gods actually look like. It is symbolic of what powers people think the gods have.

Drawings of magical fantastic creatures like dragons and unicorns don't mean those things really existed. And it doesn't mean that people existed at the same time as dinosaurs. It just means that people have good imaginations!

If we don't have any other information, we have to accept stuff literally, but it does not mean we have to make sh!t up that is unlikely to be true.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Karl on June 07, 2013, 07:48:30 AM
PS: It is not always advisable to base an argument on a pseudoscience or conspiracy theory documentary.
I did not mean to, but, well actually I did. I was looking for material and that is what I found. I am aware of the value or lack of it from info found from these sources. As I said, I met the 2 people myself but quoting myself or undocumented statements does not make a lot of sense I guess. They never published their work. I do not even know if the gent from Bremen still lives. I last met him 10 years ago. So yes, it is hearsay as soon as it leaves my room. I get that.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Karl on June 07, 2013, 08:04:14 AM
Drawings of magical fantastic creatures like dragons and unicorns don't mean those things really existed. And it doesn't mean that people existed at the same time as dinosaurs. It just means that people have good imaginations!
You do not believe in dragons and unicorns? Seamen always had a lot of imagination but the "Water Unicorn" exists. It is just a whale but what do you think goes through a persons mind after a year in a tub. Dragons, fairy tale. Of course I know that men and dragons never lived together if you refer to dinosaurs that in some species look astonishingly exact like a dragon. But that was found out a long time later.  I wait to see what pops up next. Afterall until the earth was declared a ball there was a lot of evidence for the contrary. Mass extinction was the idea of a few fools they told me when I attended school. Now we all know what the meteorites did. Who knows, maybe god shows up afterall. Until then, no worshipping though.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 07, 2013, 03:35:01 PM
Show me some real evidence (fossils, DNA, etc.) of dragons--flying, fire-breathing giant lizards, not regular little Komodo reptiles--then we can talk. Same with unicorns, they are horses with one spiral horn, not narwhals or mutated goats.

Until then, they are as mythical as gods.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: junebug72 on June 10, 2013, 07:11:13 AM
Karl I commend your way of thinking.  I too say there is a possibility.  It is not because of ancient artifacts though.  It is simply because we are the only planet we have found with life on it.  We have telescopes that witness big bangs and yet not one other big bang has produced an identical solar system to ours. 

I don't think God wants us to worship but rather cares more that we appreciate each other and our planet.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: naemhni on June 10, 2013, 07:38:37 AM
We have telescopes that witness big bangs

Umm, no, dear.  We don't.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Odin on June 10, 2013, 02:08:59 PM
Just a question. And placed in the Chatter section so no one is offended.

No prove or traces of god? Is that true? How did the people living in Egypt thousands of years ago move blocks of stone 2000 tons of weight?

http://www.dumbassguide.info/blog.php?bid=68

Like this?  This is just one man with a lot of time. 

Odin, King of the Gods
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: jdawg70 on June 10, 2013, 02:53:33 PM
We have telescopes that witness big bangs

Umm, no, dear.  We don't.
Well...yeah we kinda do.  In the sense that we have telescopes that can observe the remnants of the big bang (cosmic microwave background radiation - CMB).  So we do have telescopes that witness a big bang.

You do not believe in dragons and unicorns? Seamen always had a lot of imagination but the "Water Unicorn" exists. It is just a whale but what do you think goes through a persons mind after a year in a tub. Dragons, fairy tale. Of course I know that men and dragons never lived together if you refer to dinosaurs that in some species look astonishingly exact like a dragon. But that was found out a long time later.  I wait to see what pops up next. Afterall until the earth was declared a ball there was a lot of evidence for the contrary. Mass extinction was the idea of a few fools they told me when I attended school. Now we all know what the meteorites did. Who knows, maybe god shows up afterall. Until then, no worshipping though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykwqXuMPsoc
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 10, 2013, 02:54:55 PM
^^^Damn, that was annoying. I made it through 13 seconds. :'(
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: naemhni on June 10, 2013, 03:01:59 PM
We have telescopes that witness big bangs

Umm, no, dear.  We don't.
Well...yeah we kinda do.  In the sense that we have telescopes that can observe the remnants of the big bang (cosmic microwave background radiation - CMB).  So we do have telescopes that witness a big bang.

True, strictly speaking, but also not very meaningful.  If you interpret it that way, then everything you see, hear, smell, touch, and taste is "observing the remnants of the big bang".  Telescopes aren't relevant anymore than flathead screwdrivers are.

Anyway, that's not what June meant.  She said that we have telescopes that can observe various big bangs, and that they create different solar systems.  This is simply not correct.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: SkyWriting on June 10, 2013, 03:07:15 PM
Just a question. And placed in the Chatter section so no one is offended.No prove or traces of god? Is that true? How did the people living in Egypt thousands of years ago move blocks of stone 2000 tons of weight?

Science is very poor at history.  That's why the most popular scientists create
science-fiction because that's what any scientific hypotheses is. 
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 10, 2013, 03:09:24 PM
Just a question. And placed in the Chatter section so no one is offended.No prove or traces of god? Is that true? How did the people living in Egypt thousands of years ago move blocks of stone 2000 tons of weight?

Science is very poor at history.  That's why the most popular scientists create
science-fiction because that's what any scientific hypotheses is.

Excuse me, but you are using a computer and the internet at this very moment, are you not? If you don't see the irony here, I call POE.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: jdawg70 on June 10, 2013, 03:14:57 PM
Well...yeah we kinda do.  In the sense that we have telescopes that can observe the remnants of the big bang (cosmic microwave background radiation - CMB).  So we do have telescopes that witness a big bang.

True, strictly speaking, but also not very meaningful.  If you interpret it that way, then everything you see, hear, smell, touch, and taste is "observing the remnants of the big bang".  Telescopes aren't relevant anymore than flathead screwdrivers are.

Anyway, that's not what June meant.  She said that we have telescopes that can observe various big bangs, and that they create different solar systems.  This is simply not correct.
Valid.

^^^Damn, that was annoying. I made it through 13 seconds. :'(
I blame PZ Myers for that one.

Science is very poor at history.  That's why the most popular scientists create
science-fiction because that's what any scientific hypotheses is. 
Dowhatnow?  Are you saying that the scientific method is poor at determining history?  Data can be difficult to get to, so I suppose that, yes, in a sense, using the scientific method to derive the truth of history is more subject to error than deriving the truth of a mechanistic process governing physical behavior.

Your next sentence makes no sense.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: SkyWriting on June 10, 2013, 03:19:53 PM
Dowhatnow?  Are you saying that the scientific method is poor at determining history?  Data can be difficult to get to, so I suppose that, yes, in a sense, using the scientific method to derive the truth of history is more subject to error than deriving the truth of a mechanistic process governing physical behavior.

Your next sentence makes no sense.

If a hypotheses was true it would be a conclusion.
If it's fiction, one works to create a world where it's true. 
But it starts as pure fiction.

The scientific method does nothing to determine events after they happen.
It observes events as they happen and predicts a future observation.
Even if the observation is confirmed, it may change at the next observation.
Science can only predict forward.

If we were to create life from scratch, we would not have proven how it happened in the past.
We would only be confirming that we did it yesterday.  And it might not happen a second time either.   See?  It's all forward, and still iffy.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Dante on June 10, 2013, 03:25:36 PM
The scientific method does nothing to determine events after they happen.
It observes events as they happen and predicts a future observation.
Even if the observation is confirmed, it may change at the next observation.
Science can only predict forward.

I think I get what you're trying to say, but even then, science can and does determine what has happened in the past. See "cosmic background radiation" for an example. Science makes a prediction on what may have happened, then uses the scientific method to determine the validity of the hypothesis.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: SkyWriting on June 10, 2013, 03:30:54 PM
The scientific method does nothing to determine events after they happen.
It observes events as they happen and predicts a future observation.
Even if the observation is confirmed, it may change at the next observation.
Science can only predict forward.

I think I get what you're trying to say, but even then, science can and does determine what has happened in the past. See "cosmic background radiation" for an example. Science makes a prediction on what may have happened, then uses the scientific method to determine the validity of the hypothesis.

A fine example.  It was discovered.  100 fictions were created to explain it.  Some of them remain.  Some of the discarded fictions may well return some day.  Getting closer to "the truth" is a mental construct.  One may always end up being wrong, even if they do recreate the original event, it may not play out as intended or as it originally happened.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Dante on June 10, 2013, 03:36:16 PM
Getting closer to "the truth" is a mental construct.

Umm...what?
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: SkyWriting on June 10, 2013, 03:39:46 PM
Getting closer to "the truth" is a mental construct.

Umm...what?

Science can never prove anything.  We can imagine we are closer to the truth
with repetition, but nothing can be proven.  Except in Math.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Truth OT on June 10, 2013, 04:27:48 PM

If a hypotheses was true it would be a conclusion.
If it's fiction, one works to create a world where it's true. 
But it starts as pure fiction.

The scientific method does nothing to determine events after they happen.
It observes events as they happen and predicts a future observation.
Even if the observation is confirmed, it may change at the next observation.
Science can only predict forward.

If we were to create life from scratch, we would not have proven how it happened in the past.
We would only be confirming that we did it yesterday.  And it might not happen a second time either.   See?  It's all forward, and still iffy.

Science would appear to be able to enable us to use the information we have to come up with the most reasonable and likely scenarios for what has previously transpired. Does science always tell us EXACTLY what happen? No, but it does give us the means to draw reasonable conclusions of what probably took place and it tells/shows us why.

Saying it starts as pure fiction seems a bit much. The full picture at times may have some ficticious elements by necessity when the testible data only yields a framework that must be built upon to develop a theory, etc. due to the information that may be lacking.

The scientific method does A LOT to not only help us determine what past events have unfolded, but also the how and why of the matter as well. You seem to disregard the value and probability and the implications of evidence.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 10, 2013, 04:30:11 PM
Science is not about "proving" anything. So, straw man, babycakes. Science offers plausible explanations for things that have happened, and suggests ways to test how good those explanations are. If the explanations are really good ones, then we can use them to predict what might happen, and apply what we know to new situations to improve the explanations even more. We can get close enough to "proof" as long as the explanation works as predicted when applied.

So, yes, science can tell us what happened in the past. That is why we use science to solve crimes (that have happened in the past) and to find petroleum (that was created and deposited in the past) and to understand huricanes and tornadoes (that happened in the past) and to diagnose and cure diseases (that people contracted in the past). 
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Odin on June 10, 2013, 04:37:26 PM
Science can never prove anything.  We can imagine we are closer to the truth
with repetition, but nothing can be proven.  Except in Math.

Actually, science can prove, or disprove, things.  Take archaeology, for example.  It has proven that there was never a mass exodus from Egypt as described in Exodus.  The Exodus, and the promised land to the promised people, are the bases for the Judeo-Christian religion.

No Exodus, no Moses; no Moses, no Abraham, no Adam, no Eve, no Jesus, no resurrection, no gods.

Odin, King of the Gods
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: SkyWriting on June 10, 2013, 06:29:37 PM
Science can never prove anything.  We can imagine we are closer to the truth
with repetition, but nothing can be proven.  Except in Math.

Actually, science can prove, or disprove, things. <snip>

Nope. Science offers no proofs of anything.
http://blog.drwile.com/?p=5725
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 10, 2013, 08:00:36 PM
^^^Science gets closer to "proof" than any other human endeavor. Can you offer a more accurate way to determine what is true about the world? The theory of gravity, for example does not "prove" that you will always fall if you jump unaided off a cliff, but I doubt you want to test it out. You are nitpicking. What is your point?
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Anfauglir on June 11, 2013, 02:33:45 AM
100 fictions were created to explain it.  Some of them remain.  Some of the discarded fictions may well return some day.  Getting closer to "the truth" is a mental construct.  One may always end up being wrong, even if they do recreate the original event, it may not play out as intended or as it originally happened.

Interesting.

How many creation myths do you think there are?  Which one (if any) do you subscribe to - and why?
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: junebug72 on June 11, 2013, 05:32:35 AM
I'm saying being the only life form in the universe is what we now know.  That if the big bang is the only answer it should be able to duplicate the process just like life does.  I know we are taking pictures of space.  There are satellites and probes taking pictures.  Just go to the Science channel's website or NASA's.  I have a channel that is 24/7 NASA and it's a good way to fall asleep but they show lots of pictures and video clips taken from space.  I also know I've seen a program that claimed it was actual footage of a solar system being born.  I remember being awed by it.  I have slept since then but I don't think I'd mess it up that bad.  It was 1 of those programs that makes you think about your own existence and the wander of it all.  The subject matter is what caught my attention.

It's like every time science reveals a new discovery I feel closer to God. 
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Mrjason on June 11, 2013, 06:15:18 AM
It's like every time science reveals a new discovery I feel closer to God.

Can I ask why it makes you feel closer to god? I get the exact opposite feeling.

If we find evidence of life on mars will that also make you feel closer to god?
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: neopagan on June 11, 2013, 10:02:48 AM
Can I ask why it makes you feel closer to god? I get the exact opposite feeling.

If we find evidence of life on mars will that also make you feel closer to god?

Agreed... 

In my former theistic life, I would have said the same thing as junebug said.  Now, it feels like everything I learn/hear about/etc moves the god delusion further to the back of my mind.  The god of the gaps keeps slipping further and further into assurance of non-existence (ok, call it 99.999%).

I'm sure it's not original to Dan Barker, but in his book Godless he talks about how supernatural explanations for daily events would always be the LAST thing we naturally go to in our lives.  For example, he says if we leave a shopping mall and cannot find our car, we start with: I forgot where I parked, maybe it was stolen, or towed, maybe your spouse came by and got it, etc, etc, etc... Way down the list would be angels spirited away my car! 

 
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: screwtape on June 11, 2013, 11:24:52 AM
Can I ask why it makes you feel closer to god? I get the exact opposite feeling.

My question is, what doesn't make religious people feel closer to god?  It seems like whatever the evidence, it confirms their beliefs.  When the gospels agree - see? They would only align if they were true!  When the gospels disagree - see?  You wouldn't expect eyewitness accounts to agree 100%.  They must be true!

Morons.


I'm sure it's not original to Dan Barker, but in his book Godless he talks about how supernatural explanations for daily events would always be the LAST thing we naturally go to in our lives. 

When people demand I expain some heretofore unexplained scientific mystery and I cannot, they want to fill that gap of ignorance with god.  I then ask them how flatscreen tvs work.  Don't know?  Oh, well, let's just attribute that bit of ignorance to god, shall we?  I ask them how a toilet valve works.  Draw it for me.  Oh, you can't?  Well shuck my corn, it must be god's miracle!  One day my cell phone somehow turned itself on.  Electronic glitch I cannot readily explain, or spirits, hobgoblins and deities?  God, of course!

Morons.  All morons hate it when you call them a moron.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: neopagan on June 11, 2013, 03:06:46 PM
When people demand I expain some heretofore unexplained scientific mystery and I cannot, they want to fill that gap of ignorance with god. 

God works in myterious ways... therefore the mystery in god is put there by another god who put it there via another god...  a big daisy chain of gods I guess?


Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 11, 2013, 04:05:27 PM
When people demand I expain some heretofore unexplained scientific mystery and I cannot, they want to fill that gap of ignorance with god. 

God works in myterious ways... therefore the mystery in god is put there by another god who put it there via another god...  a big daisy chain of gods I guess?

Yes, dvd players must work by magic, since I can't tell you how they actually work.  &)

What is especially irritating is when people assume that, since they themselves don't understand or can't explain a phenomenon, nobody can or ever will, and therefore supernatural beings. Look, lamebrain, we do have a pretty good idea of how the eye evolved, okay? We know where morality comes from. And we know why tornadoes hit the US midwest so frequently.

When biologists eventually create a new life form in a lab, it will be because of god, too. Just wait and see.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Anfauglir on June 12, 2013, 02:57:19 AM
Morons.  All morons hate it when you call them a moron.

To be fair, non-morons also aren't best pleased to be called a moron.....  ;D

I agree with everything else though.  Just because you or I cannot explain something, doesn't mean the explanation must automatically default to gods or pixies.

Of course, that's how we've come to the "god of the gaps" situation.  Way back when we were all wearing furs and wondering whether there was anything better to eat that raw meat, EVERYTHING was god.  The lights in the sky, the lightning from above, the wind, the way the sabre-tooth looked the wrong way just at the right to so it didn't see us....all god.  Flash forward a few thousand years, and more and more stuff was getting explained, and god was pushed back into all the little bits there was no current explanation for.

Unfortunately, I think we have passed the stage where new knowledge cn be assimilated by the average mind (let alone the dumb).  The math and the concepts behind quantum, string, solar mechanics, and dozens of other subjects, are now beyond the majority of people (at least without a bit of effort, which often doesn't seem to be a priority for them).  It therefore is just easier to say "I don't understand that, therefore it must be god" - and probably seems quite logical to them.  Unfortunately, it ignores the fact that SOMEONE out there HAS worked it all out, they just haven't managed to dumb it down to their level.

A friend once told me a tale - he was talking with a religious friend, and they commented "that Dawkins - he's too clever for his own good".  And I think that's a telling statement - lots of people are simply happier wallowing in ignorance and "goddidit", either because it saves them having to think, or (like that lady) because they have been trained to believe that asking questions and thinking is somehow a Bad Thing.

Morons, like you say.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: screwtape on June 12, 2013, 07:54:59 AM
To be fair, non-morons also aren't best pleased to be called a moron.....

That was my tribute to Holden Caufield.

And I think that's a telling statement - lots of people are simply happier wallowing in ignorance and "goddidit", either because it saves them having to think, or (like that lady) because they have been trained to believe that asking questions and thinking is somehow a Bad Thing.

As king, I would allow such people their stupidity.  However, I would also limit the responsibility they would be allowed to have.  No posititions of authority for them.  Also, no oven cleaners, glass, drain clog removers, knives, scissors and most definitely no guns.  And they would have to wear some identifier at all times - perhaps jester hats or a large "M" tattooed on their foreheads - so the rest of my subjects could easily know who the morons are.

They would have limited free speech.  Around other morons, they could speak completely freely.  However in the presence of a non-moron, they could only speak when spoken to or in the event of an emergency. 

I would be a great and benevolent king.



Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Anfauglir on June 12, 2013, 08:26:56 AM
To be fair, non-morons also aren't best pleased to be called a moron.....

That was my tribute to Holden Caufield.

Caulfield, when all is said and done, was a dick.  A good kicking would be too good for him.  Its rare I've encountered such a whiny, blinkered, loser.

Hmmm.  I think I see your point.   ;)

Quote from: Anfauglir
quote author=Anfauglir link=topic=25006.msg558163#msg558163 date=1371023839]
And I think that's a telling statement - lots of people are simply happier wallowing in ignorance and "goddidit", either because it saves them having to think, or (like that lady) because they have been trained to believe that asking questions and thinking is somehow a Bad Thing.

As king, I would allow such people their stupidity.  However, I would also limit the responsibility they would be allowed to have.  No posititions of authority for them.  Also, no oven cleaners, glass, drain clog removers, knives, scissors and most definitely no guns.  And they would have to wear some identifier at all times - perhaps jester hats or a large "M" tattooed on their foreheads - so the rest of my subjects could easily know who the morons are.

They would have limited free speech.  Around other morons, they could speak completely freely.  However in the presence of a non-moron, they could only speak when spoken to or in the event of an emergency. 

I would be a great and benevolent king.

I'd vote for you.

Assuming you let me have a vote, of course!
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: screwtape on June 12, 2013, 08:59:12 AM
Caulfield, when all is said and done, was a dick.  A good kicking would be too good for him.  Its rare I've encountered such a whiny, blinkered, loser.

I thought that the first time too.  But on subsequent readings, I changed my opinion.  His little brother died and that was an emotional injury he'd not gotten over.  Add to that the typical pains of being a teen and not fitting in.  I would not have wanted to be his classmate, because he was a pain in the neck.  But as an outside observer I could empathize.

I'd vote for you.

Assuming you let me have a vote, of course!

Of course.  Everyone would be allowed to vote for me.  Even the morons. 
You would have an esteemed position in my court.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: neopagan on June 12, 2013, 09:13:30 AM
As king, I would allow such people their stupidity.  However, I would also limit the responsibility they would be allowed to have.  No posititions of authority for them.  Also, no oven cleaners, glass, drain clog removers, knives, scissors and most definitely no guns.  And they would have to wear some identifier at all times - perhaps jester hats or a large "M" tattooed on their foreheads - so the rest of my subjects could easily know who the morons are.

They would have limited free speech.  Around other morons, they could speak completely freely.  However in the presence of a non-moron, they could only speak when spoken to or in the event of an emergency. 

I would be a great and benevolent king.

Forget king - run for governor of Oklahoma!  Your subjects await...   :laugh:
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: junebug72 on June 13, 2013, 05:41:34 AM
I am in awe of human intelligence as well. 

The reason it makes me feel closer to God is because I think God created it. 

Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Anfauglir on June 13, 2013, 05:54:50 AM
I'd vote for you.

Assuming you let me have a vote, of course!

Of course.  Everyone would be allowed to vote for me.  Even the morons. 
You would have an esteemed position in my court.

Hmmm.  Would opposing votes be allowed?   ;D
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Mrjason on June 13, 2013, 05:56:18 AM
I'd vote for you.

Assuming you let me have a vote, of course!

Of course.  Everyone would be allowed to vote for me.  Even the morons. 
You would have an esteemed position in my court.

Hmmm.  Would opposing votes be allowed?   ;D

I'm thinking there would only be 1 name on the polling card
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Anfauglir on June 13, 2013, 06:02:23 AM
I'm thinking there would only be 1 name on the polling card

Best way.  Means the morons don't get confused by those damned "choices". 
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: screwtape on June 13, 2013, 07:16:00 AM
Hmmm.  Would opposing votes be allowed?   

why would anyone want to vote for anyone else?

Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: SkyWriting on June 13, 2013, 09:30:12 AM
100 fictions were created to explain it.  Some of them remain.  Some of the discarded fictions may well return some day.  Getting closer to "the truth" is a mental construct.  One may always end up being wrong, even if they do recreate the original event, it may not play out as intended or as it originally happened.

Interesting.

How many creation myths do you think there are?  Which one (if any) do you subscribe to - and why?

I only subscribe to the story as told in the Christian scriptures because this particular book explains human nature perfectly and exhaustively.  No other book is so correct.   So it's the parts that are so perfectly sound that convince me that the "wacky" parts are sound as well.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: One Above All on June 13, 2013, 09:33:09 AM
I only subscribe to the story as told in the Christian scriptures because this particular book explains human nature perfectly and exhaustively.  No other book is so correct.

You're either an idiot or a liar.
http://www.project-reason.org/gallery3/image/105/
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: SkyWriting on June 13, 2013, 10:04:08 AM
I only subscribe to the story as told in the Christian scriptures because this particular book explains human nature perfectly and exhaustively.  No other book is so correct.

You're either an idiot or a liar.
http://www.project-reason.org/gallery3/image/105/

That would be your job to prove either way, I guess.

I thought you were going to point to a better source of knowledge.   
But human nature says that would be a very rare response.

I can usually explain supposed "contradictions" with one hand tied behind my back.
I'm not a bible student, don't read it regular, don't attend church, don't listen to sermons in person, on tv, or radio.    My college degree has nothing to do with religion.

Oh, but after 25 years in R&D, I am a master at "search".    What "contradiction" is your favorite one? 
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: One Above All on June 13, 2013, 10:09:15 AM
I thought you were going to point to a better source of knowledge.

By "better" I assume you mean one that agrees with you.

But human nature says that would be a very rare response.

Shows how little you know about my posting history. I am rational. Some even say I'm too rational.

I can usually explain supposed "contradictions" with one hand tied behind my back.

Alright. Let's start at the beginning.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/accounts.html
Explain that without using vague words and lies.

I'm not a bible student, don't read it regular, don't attend church, don't listen to sermons in person, on tv, or radio.    My college degree has nothing to do with religion.

We're the same on most of these.

Oh, but after 25 years in R&D, I am a master at "search".    What "contradiction" is your favorite one? 

I have no favorite contradiction, since I don't regard the Bible as anything more than a poorly written book.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: screwtape on June 13, 2013, 10:16:00 AM
You're either an idiot or a liar.

This is uncalled for.  Tone it down, please.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 13, 2013, 11:16:10 AM
I am in awe of human intelligence as well. 

The reason it makes me feel closer to God is because I think God created it.

I want you to consider this carefully: If god created everything, then god is responsible for the good things as well as the bad things. If god made the solutions, then god also made the problems.

If god created everything in nature, then god created poison ivy, herpes, cancer, bubonic plague, cockroaches, ectopic pregnancies, hurricanes, earthquakes, floods and face-eating bacteria--as well as all the things people have done to help with those problems.

If god created human intelligence, god is responsible for torture-- and Amnesty International; slavery-- and abolition; terrorist cells, nuclear weapons-- and peace activists. 

Unless you want to somehow say that that there are things in the universe that god did not create?
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: jdawg70 on June 13, 2013, 11:30:21 AM
I want you to consider this carefully: If god created everything, then god is responsible for the good things as well as the bad things. If god made the solutions, then god also made the problems.

If god created everything in nature, then god created poison ivy, herpes, cancer, bubonic plague, cockroaches, ectopic pregnancies, hurricanes, earthquakes, floods and face-eating bacteria--as well as all the things people have done to help with those problems.

If god created human intelligence, god is responsible for torture-- and Amnesty International; slavery-- and abolition; terrorist cells, nuclear weapons-- and peace activists. 
I would say that this is dependent on god possessing the following characteristics:
All-powerful (or extraordinarily powerful enough to manifest almost all outcomes he/she/it desires)
All-knowing (or knowing enough to be able to predict with significant precision and accuracy the results of his/her/its actions or the actions of other entities)

I am uncertain if junebug72 subscribes to such a conception of god.
Quote
Unless you want to somehow say that that there are things in the universe that god did not create?
If god does not possess the above characteristics, it's possible that god did create everything but possesses insufficient knowledge and/or intellectual processing capability to reliably predict the results of his/her/its actions.  It's possible that god does possess such knowledge and intellectual processing capability, but is insufficiently powerful enough to correct for mistakes and is, for some reason or another, totally OK with that.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Graybeard on June 13, 2013, 11:34:13 AM
I can usually explain supposed "contradictions" with one hand tied behind my back.

I assume this ability boils down to "God can do anything, unlike the universe, He was always there, He is outside time, He does not need clothes or food, etc." and other apologist garbage which is then followed by "No one knows what God is like."
Quote
I'm not a bible student, don't read it regular, don't attend church, don't listen to sermons in person, on tv, or radio.    My college degree has nothing to do with religion.

Do you know what "confirmation bias" is?

Do you ever consider that you have built a god in your own image?
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: jdawg70 on June 13, 2013, 11:46:14 AM
If god does not possess the above characteristics, it's possible that god did create everything but possesses insufficient knowledge and/or intellectual processing capability to reliably predict the results of his/her/its actions.  It's possible that god does possess such knowledge and intellectual processing capability, but is insufficiently powerful enough to correct for mistakes and is, for some reason or another, totally OK with that.
In retrospect, the latter option I present above does nothing to actually absolve responsibility from this entity.  In the former case, the degree of responsibility is directly correlated to the nature of what knowledge and intellectual capability this god entity does possess.  If sufficiently small (though even substantially larger than human capability) I can see paths of "honest mistakes" from god.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Graybeard on June 13, 2013, 11:46:44 AM
Why can't I resist?

I can usually explain supposed "contradictions" with one hand tied behind my back.

OK, SkyWriting, off you go, and no massive cut and paste jobs!

Quote
In two places in the New Testament the genealogy of Jesus son of Mary is mentioned. MAT 1:6-16 and LUK 3:23-31. Each gives the ancestors of Joseph the CLAIMED husband of Mary and Step father of Jesus. The first one starts from Abraham (verse 2) all the way down to Jesus. The second one from Jesus all the way back to Adam. The only common name to these two lists between David and Jesus is JOSEPH, How can this be true?

Quote
Judas died how?

"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (MAT 27:5)

"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (ACT 1:18)

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html#genealogy
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: sun_king on June 13, 2013, 11:54:32 AM
I had wanted to ask about the iron chariots, but Graybeard was faster. I will wait, in no hurry, let CSI investigate Judas' death.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 13, 2013, 01:12:04 PM
When SW has dealt with that, he can address the gazillion problems and contradictions with the Noah story.

Like what Noah and his family ate when they got off the ark, in a stinking disease vector of a wasteland with every human being, plant, tree and animal dead and rotting.

He could also tell us how all the millions of species of saved animals, even those that can't fly or swim, got to their correct habitats after getting out of that packed-to-the-gills methane-filled dark, smelly, noisy, but delightful Carnival cruise.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Anfauglir on June 14, 2013, 04:07:28 AM
100 fictions were created to explain it.  Some of them remain.  Some of the discarded fictions may well return some day.  Getting closer to "the truth" is a mental construct.  One may always end up being wrong, even if they do recreate the original event, it may not play out as intended or as it originally happened.

Interesting.

How many creation myths do you think there are?  Which one (if any) do you subscribe to - and why?

I only subscribe to the story as told in the Christian scriptures because this particular book explains human nature perfectly and exhaustively.  No other book is so correct.   So it's the parts that are so perfectly sound that convince me that the "wacky" parts are sound as well.

So it talks about human nature?  With respect, so what?  Every single creation myth talks about people and what they want and do - you can easily construct a mythology based on human archetypes just by observing and talking to people.  So I can't subsribe to your reasoning there at all.

As for the "some bits sound right, so everything must be", that sounds like a very dangerous line of thinking.  Its the way that confidence tricksters work, injecting just enough plausibile truth that you overlook the lies and nonsense. 

To pick the old favourite, Harry Potter, that book describes trains, houses, people and their relationships, UK geography, eating, and much else, and while the writing style is not the best, it deals reasonably well (as I said) with people and their relationships, their frailties, their nature.  So when I read that, should I therefore assume that what it says about magic and potions and werewolves - the "wacky" stuff - is also completely true?
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: SkyWriting on June 14, 2013, 04:20:14 AM
100 fictions were created to explain it.  Some of them remain.  Some of the discarded fictions may well return some day.  Getting closer to "the truth" is a mental construct.  One may always end up being wrong, even if they do recreate the original event, it may not play out as intended or as it originally happened.

Interesting.

How many creation myths do you think there are?  Which one (if any) do you subscribe to - and why?

I only subscribe to the story as told in the Christian scriptures because this particular book explains human nature perfectly and exhaustively.  No other book is so correct.   So it's the parts that are so perfectly sound that convince me that the "wacky" parts are sound as well.
So it talks about human nature?  With respect, so what?  Every single creation myth talks about people and what they want and do - you can easily construct a mythology based on human archetypes just by observing and talking to people.  So I can't subsribe to your reasoning there at all.

I don't wish that you subscribe to my reasoning, at all.

Quote
As for the "some bits sound right, so everything must be", that sounds like a very dangerous line of thinking.  Its the way that confidence tricksters work, injecting just enough plausibile truth that you overlook the lies and nonsense. 

To pick the old favourite, Harry Potter, that book describes trains, houses, people and their relationships, UK geography, eating, and much else, and while the writing style is not the best, it deals reasonably well (as I said) with people and their relationships, their frailties, their nature.  So when I read that, should I therefore assume that what it says about magic and potions and werewolves - the "wacky" stuff - is also completely true?

It would be interesting to trace the origins of such folklore. 
What conclusion's you come to, I can't predict. I'm no prophet.
I don't ask that you follow my thinking just because I think it.
I try to avoid making assumptions as much as possible.



<<edit: fixed quotes>>
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Anfauglir on June 14, 2013, 04:28:17 AM
I don't wish that you subscribe to my reasoning, at all.
.....
I don't ask that you follow my thinking just because I think it.

Nice red herring - but that wasn't the point I was making.  What I was attempting to do, notably with the Harry Potter reference, was to see if you could explain to me why your line of reasoning would be correctly applied in some circumstances, but not in others - in essence, to see if you actually had a cohesive method of analysis, or if in fact you choose to apply different standards to different sources in order to justify a pre-chosen conclusion.

You shied away from answering those questions, and that speaks volumes to me.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: SkyWriting on June 14, 2013, 04:41:39 AM
When SW has dealt with that, he can address the gazillion problems and contradictions with the Noah story.

Like what Noah and his family ate when they got off the ark, in a stinking disease vector of a wasteland with every human being, plant, tree and animal dead and rotting.

He could also tell us how all the millions of species of saved animals, even those that can't fly or swim, got to their correct habitats after getting out of that packed-to-the-gills methane-filled dark, smelly, noisy, but delightful Carnival cruise.

Sure. 
The story reads that Noah didn't leave the Ark until after a dove returned with a plant leaf.
This suggests that plant life had regrown.  We don't know the extent but evidently there was enough
for salads for all.

The story does not require two of each "species".   Though if it did, there are 14 plus definitions for "species".
It reads "Kinds" which means they were "parents" of those that followed.   How few "Kinds" are needed, God only knows.

If animals are put in warm, black-out  conditions, many of them will hibernate. If that happened, it would explain why
conditions on the Ark required little food or cleaning.

The story reads that God brought the animals to Noah.  ALL of the story tells that the events were guided by God and
not subject to the conditions of "Mother Nature."   So any "natural" impediments to the story are contrived.

God picked each pair of animals needed and brought them to Noah. God could also lead them back to their habitats
without a full explanation being needed for the story.   The story could have included the process of feeding each
animal and how the people cleaned up after each different animal twice a day.  But not all details help the story along.

The story of the Ark is a great example of how most questions can be answered by re-reading the story. 

Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: SkyWriting on June 14, 2013, 04:52:00 AM
I don't wish that you subscribe to my reasoning, at all.
.....
I don't ask that you follow my thinking just because I think it.

Nice red herring - but that wasn't the point I was making.  What I was attempting to do, notably with the Harry Potter reference, was to see if you could explain to me why your line of reasoning would be correctly applied in some circumstances, but not in others - in essence, to see if you actually had a cohesive method of analysis, or if in fact you choose to apply different standards to different sources in order to justify a pre-chosen conclusion.

You shied away from answering those questions, and that speaks volumes to me.

Critical analysis of literature does take into account the variety of sources and does not apply the same
level of credibility or literalness to all sources across the board. 

If your going to listen to volumes of spoken information based on what I don't say, you'll
need to get into a very comfy chair.  You have a lot of listening to do.   I suggest you only
respond to what I DO write, but your style is completely your choice.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3654911/
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Mrjason on June 14, 2013, 04:52:49 AM
2 specific types of bird are mentioned

Sure. 
The story reads that Noah didn't leave the Ark until after a dove returned with a plant leaf.

How does that fit with the "kinds" idea?

The story does not require two of each "species".   Though if it did, there are 14 plus definitions for "species".
It reads "Kinds" which means they were "parents" of those that followed.   How few "Kinds" are needed, God only knows.

edit Are you saying that doves and ravens are the common ancestor of all modern birds?

Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: SkyWriting on June 14, 2013, 05:10:48 AM
Why can't I resist?

I can usually explain supposed "contradictions" with one hand tied behind my back.

OK, SkyWriting, off you go, and no massive cut and paste jobs!

Quote
In two places in the New Testament the genealogy of Jesus son of Mary is mentioned. MAT 1:6-16 and LUK 3:23-31. Each gives the ancestors of Joseph the CLAIMED husband of Mary and Step father of Jesus. The first one starts from Abraham (verse 2) all the way down to Jesus. The second one from Jesus all the way back to Adam. The only common name to these two lists between David and Jesus is JOSEPH, How can this be true?

Most conservative Bible scholars take the position that Luke is recording Mary’s genealogy and Matthew is recording Joseph’s.

Quote
Judas died how?
"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (MAT 27:5)
"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (ACT 1:18)

I'm not going to research this one.  It sounds like nobody wanted to go anywhere near him.  The point being that he had no family or friends.  As a result, he hung from the tree with a broken neck till his body was rotten and fell to the ground.  Then his insides gushed out.    Or it may have happened in hours.  The text gives minimal coverage of this particular event.
With "different reporters" you get different views of the same event.













Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: SkyWriting on June 14, 2013, 05:16:57 AM
2 specific types of bird are mentioned

Sure. 
The story reads that Noah didn't leave the Ark until after a dove returned with a plant leaf.

How does that fit with the "kinds" idea?

The Dove was one of the Kinds on the Ark, evidently. The Raven, another.


The story does not require two of each "species".   Though if it did, there are 14 plus definitions for "species".
It reads "Kinds" which means they were "parents" of those that followed.   How few "Kinds" are needed, God only knows.

edit Are you saying that doves and ravens are the common ancestor of all modern birds?

Nope.  Just two mentioned.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Mrjason on June 14, 2013, 05:41:22 AM
2 specific types of bird are mentioned

Sure. 
The story reads that Noah didn't leave the Ark until after a dove returned with a plant leaf.

How does that fit with the "kinds" idea?

The Dove was one of the Kinds on the Ark, evidently. The Raven, another.


The story does not require two of each "species".   Though if it did, there are 14 plus definitions for "species".
It reads "Kinds" which means they were "parents" of those that followed.   How few "Kinds" are needed, God only knows.

edit Are you saying that doves and ravens are the common ancestor of all modern birds?

Nope.  Just two mentioned.

Ravens and doves are quite advanced in the grand scheme of things, if all of the other "kinds" of bird on the ark were similarly advanced you'd need a fair amount of them[1]
If the other "kinds" of bird weren't as evolved as the dove and raven and could have given rise to these 2 species why bring these 2 specific types on board?
 1. here's the 64 pairs that would be needed to populate north america http://www.birdnature.com/bclassmain.html (http://www.birdnature.com/bclassmain.html)
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: SkyWriting on June 14, 2013, 05:44:12 AM
2 specific types of bird are mentioned

Sure. 
The story reads that Noah didn't leave the Ark until after a dove returned with a plant leaf.

How does that fit with the "kinds" idea?

The Dove was one of the Kinds on the Ark, evidently. The Raven, another.


The story does not require two of each "species".   Though if it did, there are 14 plus definitions for "species".
It reads "Kinds" which means they were "parents" of those that followed.   How few "Kinds" are needed, God only knows.

edit Are you saying that doves and ravens are the common ancestor of all modern birds?

Nope.  Just two mentioned.

Ravens and doves are quite advanced in the grand scheme of things, if all of the other "kinds" of bird on the ark were similarly advanced you'd need a fair amount of them[1]
If the other "kinds" of bird weren't as evolved as the dove and raven and could have given rise to these 2 species why bring these 2 specific types on board?
 1. here's the 64 pairs that would be needed to populate north america http://www.birdnature.com/bclassmain.html (http://www.birdnature.com/bclassmain.html)

The biblical  terminology  may not be scientifically modern.  It may have been one black and one white for all I know.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Mrjason on June 14, 2013, 06:25:06 AM
^^^ so even with careful rereading you can't really be sure what you are reading?
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Anfauglir on June 14, 2013, 06:32:16 AM
I don't wish that you subscribe to my reasoning, at all.
.....
I don't ask that you follow my thinking just because I think it.

Nice red herring - but that wasn't the point I was making.  What I was attempting to do, notably with the Harry Potter reference, was to see if you could explain to me why your line of reasoning would be correctly applied in some circumstances, but not in others - in essence, to see if you actually had a cohesive method of analysis, or if in fact you choose to apply different standards to different sources in order to justify a pre-chosen conclusion.

You shied away from answering those questions, and that speaks volumes to me.

Critical analysis of literature does take into account the variety of sources and does not apply the same
level of credibility or literalness to all sources across the board.....

Nice try there.  But remember what you said:

...it's the parts that are so perfectly sound that convince me that the "wacky" parts are sound as well.

But I'm all ears.  What specific standards do you use to establish the level of credibility of the Bible?  Because what you'd said above seemed to simply point to you deciding that some buts were right, and therefore EVERYTHING had to be right, no matter how weird-sounding.

Have you applied those same standards to other holy books?  If not why not?  I do hope you are not saying that you are applying different standards to the Bible BECAUSE it is the Bible, because that would sound like special pleading, and assuming the conclusion.  So there must be some criteria that gives one answer when applied to the Bible, and another answer when applied to (let's say) the Koran.  I'm interested in knowing what that criteria is.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: sun_king on June 14, 2013, 12:05:14 PM
<snip>
I'm not going to research this one.  It sounds like nobody wanted to go anywhere near him.  The point being that he had no family or friends.  As a result, he hung from the tree with a broken neck till his body was rotten and fell to the ground.  Then his insides gushed out.    Or it may have happened in hours.  The text gives minimal coverage of this particular event.
With "different reporters" you get different views of the same event.

I guess it was convenient to leave out the word "headlong". So in your version, Judas hung himself and all the gory details of the splat.

Now sir, where is your proof that this is what happened? Just like you said about proof in science, isn't this just a new fiction? Words work both ways, anyone can come up with a fancy new story[1]but if you are attempting to prove that it is not a biblical contradiction then lets have some data to support it.

Or are you expecting us to believe in fiction???


 1. Mine involves Judas in the International Space Station tying the other end of a fireproof noose to the base of an Acme rocket, pointing it towards Earth and firing it. Its technically not a "hanging", but if you resolve the vectors it is just the opposing forces that matter. With the rocket exceeding certain velocities sufficient force would be exerted by the noose to choke Judas or snap his neck. This way its a hanging and a headlong fall!
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 14, 2013, 12:49:59 PM
Here we go again with one of my favorite topics!

On the Noah's Ark story, SW, you are just pasting "god's magic" over all the practical and scientific contradictions. [1]

Once you go there, you have to wonder why god had Noah go through all that hassle of building an impossibly ginormous boat, etc. in the first place. Just have god "magic away" all the evil people (and evil plant life, evil panda bears, evil honeybees, evil flamingos, evil giraffes and evil hyenas--well, that was redundant) and start over with a nice new non-evil earth.

There's a reason we don't build aircraft carrier size boats out of wood--it is impossible.  For example, ask professional boat builders and wood workers: it simply can't be done. To locate, cut and transport the huge number of trees (from what forest in the Middle East?) needed would take so many months that the wood is rotting before you even start to build.

And it would take years for a handful of people to construct with just hand tools--if they were able to keep all the wood from rotting. A wooden boat of apartment building size could not even float, let alone withstand a storm at sea. If it had sufficient ventilation, ie holes, to keep the inhabitants from suffocating, it would take on water and sink.

And, no, not all animals hibernate just because it gets dark. Where the heck did you get that idea? Trying to avoid the massive feeding, watering and waste disposal problems, eh? And the thorny issue of keeping the predators away from the prey (and from each other) for weeks at a time....

Only certain rodents, reptiles and of course bears hibernate, sometimes only for a few weeks, mainly in response to cold not dark, and certainly not in response to heat. Primates and birds don't hibernate. Neither do most insect, canine and feline species. Try again.

And while you are at it, explain to us why we can't paste "god's magic" over the impossible stuff in any other religion besides yours. Do you also believe that it is forbidden to touch menstruating women or dogs, and that martyrs for Islam go straight to paradise/heaven? Do you also think that cows are sacred because they harbor the migrating human soul?
 1. One of the many problems with throwing the "god's magic" blanket over the ark story: god knows how to keep every species alive and well, but lets things suffer and go extinct all the time. Even if you think humans are bad and sinful and deserve death, why extend that fate to all the other life forms on the planet?
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: SkyWriting on June 14, 2013, 09:12:34 PM
On the Noah's Ark story, SW, you are just pasting "god's magic" over all the practical and scientific contradictions.  [nb]One of the many problems with throwing the "god's magic" blanket over the ark story: god knows how to keep every species alive

There is no mention of every species.  If you can't stick to the story, your questions will be all wrong.
Two of each "kind" which means they were the parents of those that followed.  There is no more detail available.
And the boat floats fine.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q5/cdp40/Noahs-Ark-full.jpg
No storms or even waves are mentioned.
Please stick to the story as written.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: screwtape on June 14, 2013, 10:00:29 PM
And the boat floats fine.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q5/cdp40/Noahs-Ark-full.jpg

That's not a boat.  That is not even a model as it's not scale. It is more like a "Barbie ark". 

No storms or even waves are mentioned.
Please stick to the story as written.

If we are sticking to the story as written then you must account for the unbelievably huge amount of water that has to fall in an incredibly short period of time.[1]  To think there were no storms or waves would be to ignore the story as written.
 1. the key words being "unbelievably" and "incredibly"
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: sun_king on June 14, 2013, 11:44:21 PM
If he believed in science we could have told SkyWriting that models need their scaling factors considered before making assumptions. I think that's why he has no clue on why there should be waves and storms in the real world. His explanation on the deluge seems to be based on how water is slowly filled into a glass.

SkyWriting, you can make a paper airplane from a paper page torn from a Bible, it will glide fairly well. That doesn't mean that an airplane made by the same type of paper, but the size of a tennis court, will fly.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Nam on June 15, 2013, 12:05:06 AM
It's like every time science reveals a new discovery I feel closer to God.

Can I ask why it makes you feel closer to god? I get the exact opposite feeling.

If we find evidence of life on mars will that also make you feel closer to god?

It seems anything makes her closer to "god". If she stubbed her toe, she'd feel "closer to god". If she found out she liked to have sex with animals she'd feel "closer to god".

It's a nonsense line. It means absolutely nothing; probably not even to her.

-Nam
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on June 15, 2013, 12:56:33 AM

I try to avoid making assumptions as much as possible.

You're not very good at it yet. You need more practice.

I understand that the complete lack of evidence for a flooded earth is a little hard for you to overcome, but your assumptions that it actually happened requires that you go ahead and make stuff up to compensate for your silly ideas. An activity which does nothing, unless one counts an inflated ego as an accomplishment.

American Indians have oral histories to go back far further than the alleged story of the flood. Chinese civilization started before the alleged date of the flood and continued unabated by imagined high waters. There are trees and other living things that have been alive longer the alleged date of the flood. Cave painting in France, some over 17,000 years old, show no signs of ever being under water. Something that would have more or less ruined them anyway. The genetic evidence in humans shows no sign that our kind had dwindled to just a few 6,000 years ago. On the other hand, there is genetic evidence that humans were reduced to a total population of around 10,000 after a huge volcano did dastardly things to the environment 70,000 years ago.

We have trillions of tons of evidence for continental drift (I'm guessing here. I haven't actually weighted the continents). We have an incredible array of fossils and other pieces of evidence, including currently existing life forms, that show that evolution is real. We have chemistry, physics, botany, zoology, genetics, astronomy, geology, oceanography, volcanology and other disciplines that have confirmed, independently, dates and events and continuums and realities that fly in the face of your one single book with one short story about one impossibly put upon family in one impossibly naïve story about one evidence-free event.

Your cock-sure attitude isn't going to overcome the fact that you've got nothing.

You don't actually avoid making assumptions. You just try to give them other names so they'll sound better. It ain't working.



Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Nam on June 15, 2013, 01:34:22 AM
^propganda by those who don't know the truth.

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Astreja on June 15, 2013, 02:31:35 AM
No storms or even waves are mentioned.
Please stick to the story as written.

Very well, then:  Please do the following math problem.

"And the rain fell on the earth 40 days and 40 nights."  (Genesis 7:12)

"{The waters} rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered." (Genesis 7:19)

The highest mountain on Earth is Chomolungma (Mount Everest), at a height of 29,029 feet above sea level.

What was the rate of rainfall for the 40 days and 40 nights?
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: SkyWriting on June 15, 2013, 05:01:34 AM
No storms or even waves are mentioned.
Please stick to the story as written.

Very well, then:  Please do the following math problem.

"And the rain fell on the earth 40 days and 40 nights."  (Genesis 7:12)

"{The waters} rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered." (Genesis 7:19)

The highest mountain on Earth is Chomolungma (Mount Everest), at a height of 29,029 feet above sea level.

What was the rate of rainfall for the 40 days and 40 nights?

We don't have a date for the flood given, and catastrophic events, such as in this story, could change the topography of the planet surface.  The story does state that deep caverns of water burst.  How much this may have changed the earth surface is not documented in the story.   As you have illustrated, science is almost clueless about past events. 
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: SkyWriting on June 15, 2013, 05:07:23 AM

I try to avoid making assumptions as much as possible.

You're not very good at it yet. You need more practice.

I understand that the complete lack of evidence for a flooded earth is a little hard for you to overcome, but your assumptions that it actually happened requires that you go ahead and make stuff up to compensate for your silly ideas. An activity which does nothing, unless one counts an inflated ego as an accomplishment.

American Indians have oral histories to go back far further than the alleged story of the flood. Chinese civilization started before the alleged date of the flood and continued unabated by imagined high waters. There are trees and other living things that have been alive longer the alleged date of the flood. Cave painting in France, some over 17,000 years old, show no signs of ever being under water. Something that would have more or less ruined them anyway. The genetic evidence in humans shows no sign that our kind had dwindled to just a few 6,000 years ago. On the other hand, there is genetic evidence that humans were reduced to a total population of around 10,000 after a huge volcano did dastardly things to the environment 70,000 years ago.

We have trillions of tons of evidence for continental drift (I'm guessing here. I haven't actually weighted the continents). We have an incredible array of fossils and other pieces of evidence, including currently existing life forms, that show that evolution is real. We have chemistry, physics, botany, zoology, genetics, astronomy, geology, oceanography, volcanology and other disciplines that have confirmed, independently, dates and events and continuums and realities that fly in the face of your one single book with one short story about one impossibly put upon family in one impossibly naïve story about one evidence-free event.

Your cock-sure attitude isn't going to overcome the fact that you've got nothing.

You don't actually avoid making assumptions. You just try to give them other names so they'll sound better. It ain't working.

The date of the flood is not known, nor the conditions of the time.  Science only had clues about about the past.
All stories about past events are fiction to varying degrees.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: SkyWriting on June 15, 2013, 05:17:42 AM
If he believed in science we could have told SkyWriting that models need their scaling factors considered before making assumptions. I think that's why he has no clue on why there should be waves and storms in the real world. His explanation on the deluge seems to be based on how water is slowly filled into a glass.

One group built engineering models and subjected their Ark to ocean scale waves.  It broke in half.
My response to the challenge was that they followed the story to build the model, but didn't follow
the very same story regarding conditions.  Waves were not mentioned.

I suggest one take the Bible as a whole revelation.  Then even more issues surface:
-God controlled the sea for Moses when he separated the waters.
-Jesus calmed the waves in a storm.

Clearly, the scriptures show that God has good control of water and God is not limited by
the "natural" properties of water.



Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: SkyWriting on June 15, 2013, 05:24:55 AM
If we are sticking to the story as written then you must account for the unbelievably huge amount of water that has to fall in an incredibly short period of time.[1]  To think there were no storms or waves would be to ignore the story as written.
 1. the key words being "unbelievably" and "incredibly"

The story does say that deep earth reserves of water burst forth.  The volume of them
may account for most of the water. No details are given.   Waves can be calmed.
Jesus calmed the waves and Moses parted the sea.  God controlling water is a big
theme in the Bible.  Nature is often subdued in the writings.

 
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: junebug72 on June 15, 2013, 07:29:48 AM
I want you to consider this carefully: If god created everything, then god is responsible for the good things as well as the bad things. If god made the solutions, then god also made the problems.

If god created everything in nature, then god created poison ivy, herpes, cancer, bubonic plague, cockroaches, ectopic pregnancies, hurricanes, earthquakes, floods and face-eating bacteria--as well as all the things people have done to help with those problems.

If god created human intelligence, god is responsible for torture-- and Amnesty International; slavery-- and abolition; terrorist cells, nuclear weapons-- and peace activists. 
I would say that this is dependent on god possessing the following characteristics:
All-powerful (or extraordinarily powerful enough to manifest almost all outcomes he/she/it desires)
All-knowing (or knowing enough to be able to predict with significant precision and accuracy the results of his/her/its actions or the actions of other entities)

I am uncertain if junebug72 subscribes to such a conception of god.
Quote
Unless you want to somehow say that that there are things in the universe that god did not create?
If god does not possess the above characteristics, it's possible that god did create everything but possesses insufficient knowledge and/or intellectual processing capability to reliably predict the results of his/her/its actions.  It's possible that god does possess such knowledge and intellectual processing capability, but is insufficiently powerful enough to correct for mistakes and is, for some reason or another, totally OK with that.

Yes I think God's power is limited to the resources at God's disposal.  As with anything that is created you can only use what you have access to.  I believe there are laws of nature that even God can not break.  When it comes to God there is hardly anything you can be 100% sure of.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: junebug72 on June 15, 2013, 08:06:36 AM
If we are sticking to the story as written then you must account for the unbelievably huge amount of water that has to fall in an incredibly short period of time.[1]  To think there were no storms or waves would be to ignore the story as written.
 1. the key words being "unbelievably" and "incredibly"

The story does say that deep earth reserves of water burst forth.  The volume of them
may account for most of the water. No details are given.   Waves can be calmed.
Jesus calmed the waves and Moses parted the sea.  God controlling water is a big
theme in the Bible.  Nature is often subdued in the writings.

The God I believe in wouldn't kill all those people; children.  It does not coincide with a Loving God.  That is the contradiction.  Drowning is one of the worst ways to die.  These atheist have a good point about the Bible.  I believe in God but I do not believe the bible is God's holy word.  Plus I don't believe anything after Moses went over God's head, if God even gave him commandments, to say kill people after God just commanded them not to.  Moses really screwed things up.  No offense Screwtape. ;)
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on June 15, 2013, 10:33:39 AM

The date of the flood is not known, nor the conditions of the time.  Science only had clues about about the past.
All stories about past events are fiction to varying degrees.

As a theist, you need to clarify which of the thousands of versions of christianity you adhere to. Most believers who show up here all excited about the flood are young earthers, who think the planet is only 6,000 years old, etc. If you are not one of those, you might clarify so that we can diss you for the right reasons.

And while your stories about the past may be fictions, the stories that science tries to tell are not fiction so much as they are approximate, date-wise and such. When a paleontologist says that the dinosaurs were wiped out by an asteroid, they don't pretend that it happened on  June 15, 64997987 B.C. Right now we have no ability to be more accurate. That does not make the date fictional.

Now it may be wrong. Maybe something else happened. But the best way to make sure that we don't ever know more is to make sure that at least half of our population spends its entire life laughing at silly science instead of doing research. That'll keep us in the dark for ages.

Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: shnozzola on June 15, 2013, 05:14:22 PM
Waves can be calmed.

Do you have any writings from over the last 4000 years or so showing when ocean waves have stopped?

This is what is wrong with biblical belief.  Christians claim ridiculous facts, then need to twist logic into knots to support these beliefs.  IMO, the wisdom that IS important from religion has NOTHING to do with the story of Noah, unless you count it as a children's story to show people that there are society evils that are harmful, such as theft, and society should punish this.
- no god needed, or present
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Astreja on June 15, 2013, 09:56:35 PM
We don't have a date for the flood given, and catastrophic events, such as in this story, could change the topography of the planet surface.  The story does state that deep caverns of water burst.  How much this may have changed the earth surface is not documented in the story.   As you have illustrated, science is almost clueless about past events.

That's not what I asked, SW.  I asked you to do the math problem.  This is an open-book test, so you may use a calculator.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Azdgari on June 15, 2013, 11:36:36 PM
So, the Indian continental plate collided with Asia some time in the past 4 to 5 thousand years?  Holy shit.  How the hell did human life on Earth survive that?
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: junebug72 on June 16, 2013, 08:26:11 AM
It's like every time science reveals a new discovery I feel closer to God.

Can I ask why it makes you feel closer to god? I get the exact opposite feeling.

If we find evidence of life on mars will that also make you feel closer to god?

It seems anything makes her closer to "god". If she stubbed her toe, she'd feel "closer to god". If she found out she liked to have sex with animals she'd feel "closer to god".

It's a nonsense line. It means absolutely nothing; probably not even to her.

-Nam

I would never have sex with animals.  That's sick man.  Can't say the same for your wife.

Why use the word probably. You know what you're saying isn't probable.   I know it is grotesquely not true.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: screwtape on June 16, 2013, 09:13:28 AM
The story does say that deep earth reserves of water burst forth.  The volume of them
may account for most of the water. No details are given.

It also says the windows of heaven were thrown open.  Was that figurative?  What percent did they account for?  Where is evidence of these "deep earth reserves"? 

As an aside, why is it that people arguing for an actual Noachian flood always want to find ways for it to have been scientifically possible and not just say "magic"?  They don't look for plausible explanations for the resurrection, they just say "magic".  They don't look for plausible explanations for the parting of the Red Sea, they just say "magic".  And on and on and on.  Yet when it comes to the flood, xians all try to put on a lab coat and explain how this could have plausibly happened. Then they fail horribly and look like morons.

 
Waves can be calmed.

Sure, but it does not say they were. So that would be an non-scriptural assumption.

Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Nam on June 16, 2013, 06:02:40 PM
Quote
I would never have sex with animals.

humans are animals. never had sex with a human? ;)

Quote
That's sick man.

it's only sick if it's true.

Quote
Can't say the same for your wife.

You made me smile here. Why? Because now I know what particular button to push to really piss you off, and how you respond. See, you really show how bad your debating skills really are when you don't speak about the person who you feel insulted you but lash out at either their family or significant others.

It doesn't show how cruel I am (almost everyone here already knows) but it shows how cruel you actually are by attacking people who have nothing to do with conversation to begin with.

Thank you for the future ammo.

Oh, by the by: I'm not married.

Quote
Why use the word probably.

To get you to respond the way i know you actually want to. Are you learning yet?

Quote
You know what you're saying isn't probable.

Everything's almost certainly probable.

Quote
I know it is grotesquely not true.

Who said it was true?

You really need to learn how to properly read what people write.

-Nam
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Astreja on June 16, 2013, 08:44:27 PM
As an aside, why is it that people arguing for an actual Noachian flood always want to find ways for it to have been scientifically possible and not just say "magic"?

I often wonder about this too.

Everything else about Judeo-Christian belief seems to have a decidedly magical slant to it -- Talking Snake™, chatty burning bush, people coming back from the dead.  I think this is a situation where the silliness happens to intersect with something that does happen in the real world, albeit in a more moderate form.  Knowing that "It was magic" doesn't usually work on skeptics, apologists are playing at science in an attempt to get a foot in the door.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on June 16, 2013, 09:09:00 PM
If god had really been thinking, he would have just had Noah and the family make space suits for themselves and all of the animals, poofed away the earth and made a new one.

And screw the animals. If he really made them all in the first place, his willingness to save a couple of each "kind" isn't really anything that is going to get the PETA people to nominate him for an award or anything, so he should have just put the Noah crew in a space craft and then redid everything and tried again.

In truth, he should have just started over with everything, but that wouldn't fit the Noah storyline so he wasn't permitted that luxury. Especially since the Noah clan went south, behavior-wise and belief wise, etc. rather quickly. Something I guess god couldn't foresee.

Hey, wait a minute. He's a god. He knew. He knew and he still did it wrong? This story is getting a little fishy!

Unless it didn't happen and is all made up. Then it makes all the sense in the world. Like most fiction does.



Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: junebug72 on June 17, 2013, 07:35:28 AM

it's only sick if it's true.


You made me smile here. Why? Because now I know what particular button to push to really piss you off, and how you respond. See, you really show how bad your debating skills really are when you don't speak about the person who you feel insulted you but lash out at either their family or significant others.

It doesn't show how cruel I am (almost everyone here already knows) but it shows how cruel you actually are by attacking people who have nothing to do with conversation to begin with.

Oh, by the by: I'm not married.

It is a sick thing to say whether it is true or not.  I was trying to be funny so I'm glad I made you laugh.  I was never pissed off but appalled at your sick twisted mind.

You were the one that started this so you are responsible for the consequences not me.  I deal with you as friendly and patiently as I can but here you crossed a line.  I would feel sorry for your wife if you had 1.  My sweet is not an "animal" she is an angel.

My sex life is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. 

Not married, no surprise there. 

There is nothing you can teach me Nam except how to take an insult and yes I'm learning that lesson very well.  I will answer questions the way I answer them.  Like you I am who I am.  I am certainly not more cruel than you.  I'm not on a board insulting people for fun.  I only insulted your imaginary wife because you said an awful nasty thing about me.  Self defense is not cruelty.  That's like saying if someone steals from you you're the bad guy for putting him in jail.  Yes that does affect the whole family.  The thief brought it on not the person he stole from.  The key fact is that I felt bad for what I said, but you don't.  You are definitely more cruel than me. 

Why do you feel the need for ammo?  I'm not hurting you.  No need for it.  More proof of your relentless cruelty.  I'm not keeping ammo against you.   You want to make me miserable so I'll leave this forum.  It's going to take more than what you got to do that.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Anfauglir on June 17, 2013, 08:01:13 AM
"{The waters} rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered." (Genesis 7:19)
The highest mountain on Earth is Chomolungma (Mount Everest), at a height of 29,029 feet above sea level.

We don't have a date for the flood given, and catastrophic events, such as in this story, could change the topography of the planet surface.  The story does state that deep caverns of water burst.  How much this may have changed the earth surface is not documented in the story.   As you have illustrated, science is almost clueless about past events.

That's not what I asked, SW.  I asked you to do the math problem.  This is an open-book test, so you may use a calculator.

SW could always do the smaller sum.  Apparently the Ark is sitting just below the summit of Mount Arrarat, at around 13,000 feet - the height it would have had to be at at the end of the flood.  So let's amend the challenge.

SW.....assuming the earth was covered by water to a depth 13,000 feet greater than today.  What is the extra volume of water that would be required?  How much would be required to be generated on each day of the 40?

Bonus question: take that volume of extra water, and calculate what size sphere it would be.  Compare that sphere to the size of the earth.  What percentage of the earth would need to be hollow for all that water to drain away inside it?
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: SkyWriting on June 17, 2013, 08:20:51 AM
"{The waters} rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered." (Genesis 7:19)
The highest mountain on Earth is Chomolungma (Mount Everest), at a height of 29,029 feet above sea level.

We don't have a date for the flood given, and catastrophic events, such as in this story, could change the topography of the planet surface.  The story does state that deep caverns of water burst.  How much this may have changed the earth surface is not documented in the story.   As you have illustrated, science is almost clueless about past events.

That's not what I asked, SW.  I asked you to do the math problem.  This is an open-book test, so you may use a calculator.

SW could always do the smaller sum.  Apparently the Ark is sitting just below the summit of Mount Arrarat, at around 13,000 feet - the height it would have had to be at at the end of the flood.  So let's amend the challenge.

SW.....assuming the earth was covered by water to a depth 13,000 feet greater than today.  What is the extra volume of water that would be required?  How much would be required to be generated on each day of the 40?

Bonus question: take that volume of extra water, and calculate what size sphere it would be.  Compare that sphere to the size of the earth.  What percentage of the earth would need to be hollow for all that water to drain away inside it?

I can make the assumption that the only mountain at the time of the flood was Mount Arrarat and it was 5 ft tall at the time.   And there were no sea.   Because I don't know the topography at the time before the flood.  Or when it even occurred. 
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: screwtape on June 17, 2013, 08:23:21 AM
Nam,

You are trolling junebug.  That is against the rules.  Please stop it.  Either get back on topic or stop posting in this thread.


Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Mrjason on June 17, 2013, 08:35:30 AM
We don't have a date for the flood given, and catastrophic events, such as in this story, could change the topography of the planet surface.  The story does state that deep caverns of water burst.  How much this may have changed the earth surface is not documented in the story.   As you have illustrated, science is almost clueless about past events.

That's not what I asked, SW.  I asked you to do the math problem.  This is an open-book test, so you may use a calculator.

29000/40
725/24
30.20 feet per minute?

Thats a lot of water!
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: SkyWriting on June 17, 2013, 08:46:23 AM
We don't have a date for the flood given, and catastrophic events, such as in this story, could change the topography of the planet surface.  The story does state that deep caverns of water burst.  How much this may have changed the earth surface is not documented in the story.   As you have illustrated, science is almost clueless about past events.

That's not what I asked, SW.  I asked you to do the math problem.  This is an open-book test, so you may use a calculator.

29000/40
725/24
30.20 feet per minute?

Thats a lot of water!

I'm not going to do math on problems with variable inputs.   The height of the mountains and the depth of the oceans are both variables.  We don't know what they were at the time, or the time.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Mrjason on June 17, 2013, 09:01:59 AM
I'm not going to do math on problems with variable inputs.   The height of the mountains and the depth of the oceans are both variables.  We don't know what they were at the time, or the time.

You have to assume that there will be an even coverage of water.
We know the surface area of the earth to be 196,936,994 square miles[1]
So how much water would you need to raise the water level by a single foot?
You don't need to know the exact height of mountains to calculate that.
 1. http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/planets/profile.cfm?Object=Earth&Display=Facts (http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/planets/profile.cfm?Object=Earth&Display=Facts)
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: jynnan tonnix on June 17, 2013, 11:30:05 AM
These threads are fascinating, frustrating and futile. It's like a car accident that you can't look away from. Because no matter what, even when backed into an inescapable corner, there's always the "goddidit by magic" clause.

It's just a question of how long it takes before it kicks in, because most of those who believe in a literal flood are still happy enough to use it at the very start to explain things such as how Noah procured all the animals needed, or how they all got back to their original habitats, etc. Yet they insist on trying to argue the feasability of actually building the ark, or having it be seaworthy rather than just say "god just changed the laws of physics for that instance".

On the surface, it can sometimes read like an actual discussion/debate, but since there is no way to believe the story is actually true without at least SOME divine interference, there's really no set line at which such interference negates the "truth" of the story. 

One keeps trying to chip away at it thinking that surely there will be some point at which the theist's mind will open enough to acknowledge at least the possibility of a flaw in the narrative, but as long as there's that god clause, it's just not going to happen. Or, at least, hasn't in my experience.

And SW's premise that the world of the time could have been so different from the one we live in that Ararat could have been 5 feet tall for all we know is actually new to me. Are there actually people out there for whom this line of thinking makes any sense? Because that train of thought seems that it would lead to a whole NEW bunch of impossibilities to explain.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: junebug72 on June 17, 2013, 12:10:49 PM
These threads are fascinating, frustrating and futile. It's like a car accident that you can't look away from. Because no matter what, even when backed into an inescapable corner, there's always the "goddidit by magic" clause.

It's just a question of how long it takes before it kicks in, because most of those who believe in a literal flood are still happy enough to use it at the very start to explain things such as how Noah procured all the animals needed, or how they all got back to their original habitats, etc. Yet they insist on trying to argue the feasability of actually building the ark, or having it be seaworthy rather than just say "god just changed the laws of physics for that instance".

On the surface, it can sometimes read like an actual discussion/debate, but since there is no way to believe the story is actually true without at least SOME divine interference, there's really no set line at which such interference negates the "truth" of the story. 

One keeps trying to chip away at it thinking that surely there will be some point at which the theist's mind will open enough to acknowledge at least the possibility of a flaw in the narrative, but as long as there's that god clause, it's just not going to happen. Or, at least, hasn't in my experience.

And SW's premise that the world of the time could have been so different from the one we live in that Ararat could have been 5 feet tall for all we know is actually new to me. Are there actually people out there for whom this line of thinking makes any sense? Because that train of thought seems that it would lead to a whole NEW bunch of impossibilities to explain.

There are more people out there than you think that believe in God, not the bible, and the population is growing.  Google spiritual vs. religious.  That's what that means.  I like the way you post JT.  I just don't think God does the things the bible claims God did like drown millions or burn down Sodom and Gomorrah or asked Abraham to sacrifice his son or ordered the stoning of gays.  Sorry for all the ors could have kept it up though. :D
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: SkyWriting on June 17, 2013, 12:26:40 PM
These threads are fascinating, frustrating and futile. It's like a car accident that you can't look away from. Because no matter what, even when backed into an inescapable corner, there's always the "goddidit by magic" clause.

It's just a question of how long it takes before it kicks in, because most of those who believe in a literal flood are still happy enough to use it at the very start to explain things such as how Noah procured all the animals needed, or how they all got back to their original habitats, etc. Yet they insist on trying to argue the feasability of actually building the ark, or having it be seaworthy rather than just say "god just changed the laws of physics for that instance".

The complaints come in strong and hard in those instances that one is copping out.
So your complaint can't hold any water.
But I do point out that God has an unusual control over water and it's properties. 
Saying, material in the scriptures in one place, supports the scriptures in other places.
And the stories also confirm themselves.  Like people who complain about rough seas,
I point out that no rough seas are mentioned.  People who complain about room for every
known species, I point out that "every known species" is a modern construct. Also not
in the story.  About animals eating each other, I point out that GOD brought them to the Ark.
He showed that much influence, he could have them not eat each other.  That's not a stretch.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: SkyWriting on June 17, 2013, 12:29:57 PM
I'm not going to do math on problems with variable inputs.   The height of the mountains and the depth of the oceans are both variables.  We don't know what they were at the time, or the time.

You have to assume that there will be an even coverage of water. <snip>

I do not.   
When Moses parted the Red Sea, there was no mention of "even coverage."

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_1arZwSPYJFw/S-jDdB9pmCI/AAAAAAAACEI/7wqGT_crkaw/s1600/moses_parting_the_red_sea.jpg)
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on June 17, 2013, 12:49:02 PM

I can make the assumption that the only mountain at the time of the flood was Mount Arrarat and it was 5 ft tall at the time.   And there were no sea.   Because I don't know the topography at the time before the flood.  Or when it even occurred.

Fair enough. And I'll make the assumption that a lot of six foot tall people survived the flood. Especially because of the calm seas. As usual, god didn't do it right.

It is cute that you are making up even more parameters. I would love to see all the excuses for why the flood was real in one place. Sadly, christians aren't that organized. You would think that the ones who claim that the water was contained in a huge bubble above the atmosphere would get together with you 'gushing from the rocks' folks and find a way to agree on the source. Hey, its not like you don't have the perfect word of god to use as a resource. And lucky you, ignorant of how much water it would take to flood the planet, you get tocasually excuse all valid criticism and idly make up new numbers.  So that your old ones will either look a little more legit or, more likely, continue to hide your ignorance about everything real.

You understand, of course, that there are christians who claim that the water did indeed rise above the height of Mt Everest, which was 29,000 feet high then as well. You understand that there are christians who claim that the grand canyon was formed by the flood in a matter of months rather than millions of years. An accomplishment which I'm pretty sure would require more than 5 feet of water. And by the way, I'm pretty sure it would be difficult to build a 600 foot long boat whose draft was only four feet. But hey, maybe it had handles and god was holding it up.

This is a human story. Made up by humans, for humans, most likely in an effort to, among other things control the listeners. And as you are so competently demonstrating, in many cases it works.

Inconsistently though. Hence the long list of christian excuses (which which you are adding right now) about the hows and whys of such an unlikely event.

At least you are upholding the long christian tradition of covering your asses (while simultaneously insisting that "ass" is a dirty word and calling its use a sin). I assume you're proud.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: SkyWriting on June 17, 2013, 12:55:14 PM

I can make the assumption that the only mountain at the time of the flood was Mount Arrarat and it was 5 ft tall at the time.   And there were no sea.   Because I don't know the topography at the time before the flood.  Or when it even occurred.

Fair enough. And I'll make the assumption that a lot of six foot tall people survived the flood. Especially because of the calm seas. As usual, god didn't do it right.

It is cute that you are making up even more parameters. I would love to see all the excuses for why the flood was real in one place. Sadly, christians aren't that organized. You would think that the ones who claim that the water was contained in a huge bubble above the atmosphere would get together with you 'gushing from the rocks' folks and find a way to agree on the source. Hey, its not like you don't have the perfect word of god to use as a resource. And lucky you, ignorant of how much water it would take to flood the planet, you get tocasually excuse all valid criticism and idly make up new numbers.  So that your old ones will either look a little more legit or, more likely, continue to hide your ignorance about everything real.

You understand, of course, that there are christians who claim that the water did indeed rise above the height of Mt Everest, which was 29,000 feet high then as well. You understand that there are christians who claim that the grand canyon was formed by the flood in a matter of months rather than millions of years. An accomplishment which I'm pretty sure would require more than 5 feet of water. And by the way, I'm pretty sure it would be difficult to build a 600 foot long boat whose draft was only four feet. But hey, maybe it had handles and god was holding it up.

This is a human story. Made up by humans, for humans, most likely in an effort to, among other things control the listeners. And as you are so competently demonstrating, in many cases it works.

Inconsistently though. Hence the long list of christian excuses (which which you are adding right now) about the hows and whys of such an unlikely event.

At least you are upholding the long christian tradition of covering your asses (while simultaneously insisting that "ass" is a dirty word and calling its use a sin). I assume you're proud.

Whatever language helps stroke your ego and makes you feel strong and brave, you are welcome to use it.

I only point out that if you read the story, as written, there are fewer problems.

 
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Azdgari on June 17, 2013, 02:18:17 PM
When you refrain from thinking about the story, as written, fewer problems seem evident.

Then again the same is true of anything.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Astreja on June 17, 2013, 02:25:24 PM
I'm not going to do math on problems with variable inputs.   The height of the mountains and the depth of the oceans are both variables.  We don't know what they were at the time, or the time.

Putting aside the fact that I actually specified the variables to use in the problem, SkyWriting, I see that MrJason kindly did the math for you.

So how high would Chomolungma have to be at the time of the Noachide flood in order for Noah's boat to not break up and sink within the first hour or so?  20,000 feet?  10,000?  5,000?  The height of the largest hillock within sight of the writer of the Enûma Eliš, from which the Noah story was nicked?

I think that if you were to enlist the help of a competent Geologist and a knowledgeable Anthropologist, you would soon learn that the tallest mountains on Earth were not appropriately tiny at any time when Homo sapiens sapiens (or any related Great Apes possessed of boat-building skills) were walking the Earth.

How much do we have to bend reality to fit your silly Bible stories?

And more importantly... Why would we want to?
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: jdawg70 on June 17, 2013, 03:23:39 PM
I'm not going to do math on problems with variable inputs.   The height of the mountains and the depth of the oceans are both variables.  We don't know what they were at the time, or the time.
I suggest taking a class on basic algebra if you wish to learn how to deal with variables in math.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on June 17, 2013, 04:07:36 PM
Whatever language helps stroke your ego and makes you feel strong and brave, you are welcome to use it.

I only point out that if you read the story, as written, there are fewer problems.

I've read the story as written. It makes about as much sense as a four year olds excuse as to why there are cookies missing.

The language I am using doesn't stroke my ego one fucking bit. It merely informs me. That language is science, which tells us stuff, like how tall the frickin' mountains were 6,000 and 16,00 and 26,00 and 36,000 years ago. Maybe not to the foot, but far more in the ballpark than anything you can make up.

There is no evidence whatsoever that there was a flood other than your silly story. There is no corroborating evidence, there is no part of the flood story that matches any of dozens of the sciences. If you are one of those that believes the dinosaurs were wiped out by the flood, why is it that the same older species are ALWAYS found in older rock than the newer species. I mean every frickin' time. All you theists would have to do is go out and find a Triceritops buried shallower than a Diplodocus, and wham, you've disproven geology and evolution and thrown the whole of science into question. But you can't do that, can you?

There have been huge floods on this planet. Huge by human standards. But not by planetary standards. What is now the Black sea was once dry, and flooded when that area, which was under sea level, became unundated after the earth dam that separated it from the Mediterranean broke. Where I live in Montana used to be under water. It was flooded when glacial ice blocked the river that drained this region and when that dam broke (eight times over a few thousand years) it washed house sized boulders out of Montana and into Washington. And left huge, huge (the largest in the world) gravel bars in the world. And by biblical/global standards, those gravel bars would have to be tiny. Where are your biblical flood caused gravel bars?

We who realize that the flood and other biblical stories are bull have a distinct advantage over you. Facts. Evidence. Stuff like that. We have the ability to accurately predict what will be found in any given geologic area based on known geologic history. We are learning to parse the genetic code and modify/repair/reinvent life itself. In the bible some folks, just a few generations after the end of the flood, tried building a tower to heaven, and they were punished by your god by being given different languages and sent to different parts of the world. We have skyscrapers all over the world that go much higher. We have people traveling in orbit around our planet that have not pissed off your god. We are able to send devices to Mars and beyond. We can do stuff that is impressive by any measure. Bible people can only manage to impress each other.

While you might think that "Ummm, it must be true because it is in the bible." looks really good on a t-shirt, the rest of us prefer Feynmann diagrams and E=mc2. Because we can actually do stuff with our choice. Without having to make up excuses every time we are challenged by anonymous folks on the Internet.

Your standards for truth are low, your thirst for knowledge is non-existent and your desire to do anything useful in this world (not counting oppress) disappeared with the unicorns. I'd try to keep that quiet if I were you.

There, that stroked my ego. Or at least I feel a lot better now. Excuse me while I go smug myself.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 17, 2013, 05:35:45 PM
Like I said, when we bring scientific facts to bear on the flood story, they go all "god magic" on us.

So, the Chinese and Aztec and Indian civilizations either did not notice the global flood sweeping them all away, or they all descended from Noah's family in a few generations and just quickly forgot about the ark and all that.

So, a handful of birds (two or seven, depending on which part you read) managed to evolve into everything from hummingbirds to penguins, from ostriches to kiwis, from pelicans to flamingos. In a few thousand years. While people watch but take no notice. Right.

Does "god magic" also produce blindness to the strange things it produces, or is it just general amnesia?

And what is this about science not being able to explain anything about the past? That is what some sciences are really good at: geology, paleontology, physical anthropology, archeology, astronomy. All these discipines investigate stuff that happened thousands, millions or billions of years IN. THE. PAST. Medical science deals largely with diseases and conditions that happened IN. THE. PAST.

And let's not forget about CSI. You know, the application of science (genetics, etc) to solving crimes, all of which took place IN. THE. PAST. Or would SW rather police use the bible to try to find the guy who robbed his house, beat him up and kidnapped his family last night? You know, IN. THE. PAST. &)
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Anfauglir on June 18, 2013, 03:32:15 AM
But I do point out that God has an unusual control over water and it's properties. 
Saying, material in the scriptures in one place, supports the scriptures in other places.
And the stories also confirm themselves.  Like people who complain about rough seas,
I point out that no rough seas are mentioned.  People who complain about room for every
known species, I point out that "every known species" is a modern construct. Also not
in the story.  About animals eating each other, I point out that GOD brought them to the Ark.
He showed that much influence, he could have them not eat each other.  That's not a stretch.

I could grant all that.  Let's face it, a being with total control could have ensured that the flood waters simply rose to a height of 6" above the head of every human - so there would be no "flat top" to the flood, just a surface with umpteen bumps and hillocks that moved around as the humans ran around trying to reach the water-free area always just out of their reach.  And equally a super-powerful god could keep the animals from eating each other, and create food for them each day on the ark.  And alter the shape of the earth and the continents before, during, and after.

But the question that is begged by allowing all those magical intercessions, is why?  What a ridiculously convoluted plan to devise, implement, and clear up after!  Reminiscenr of Dr.Evil at his little-finger curling best!  It makes the forty days of rain quite irrelevant - if the water would be coming in a sort of cylinder around each human, then just a couple days would do it.  Heck, why even make the rain land?  Just make the rain fall and "stick" in a bubble around people's heads?  Same end result, much less clear-up required.

I liked the picture of the Red Sea, BTW.  DOES make me wonder why an Ark was even necessary - easier by far to simply hold back the waters around Noah's compound and save the building and stocking and whatnot.  Equally, no need to gather animals - just keep a similar "zone of dryness" around them all.  Equally, why not teleport the animals onto the Ark?  Why not "poof" the Ark into being?  Why not transport them all 40 days into the future, or give them the power of flight for a month or two, or.......anything really.

Point being, once the explanation starts to ignore everything we know about math, and climate, and fluid dynamics et al, and becomes "god is magic!".....then the whole story just becomes somewhat contrived and pointless. 
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Fiji on June 18, 2013, 05:05:52 AM
At least the ancient Greek flood myth allowed for the highest mountains to stay above the waters.
That's it, Zeus 1 - Yahweh 0
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: junebug72 on June 18, 2013, 08:14:20 AM
These threads are fascinating, frustrating and futile. It's like a car accident that you can't look away from. Because no matter what, even when backed into an inescapable corner, there's always the "goddidit by magic" clause.

It's just a question of how long it takes before it kicks in, because most of those who believe in a literal flood are still happy enough to use it at the very start to explain things such as how Noah procured all the animals needed, or how they all got back to their original habitats, etc. Yet they insist on trying to argue the feasability of actually building the ark, or having it be seaworthy rather than just say "god just changed the laws of physics for that instance".

The complaints come in strong and hard in those instances that one is copping out.
So your complaint can't hold any water.
But I do point out that God has an unusual control over water and it's properties. 
Saying, material in the scriptures in one place, supports the scriptures in other places.
And the stories also confirm themselves.  Like people who complain about rough seas,
I point out that no rough seas are mentioned.  People who complain about room for every
known species, I point out that "every known species" is a modern construct. Also not
in the story.  About animals eating each other, I point out that GOD brought them to the Ark.
He showed that much influence, he could have them not eat each other.  That's not a stretch.

So you really think a loving God would drown little children, babies?  Man they must've been horrible little babies to deserve that.

THE Bible is a DISGRACE to GOD.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: SkyWriting on June 18, 2013, 09:17:29 AM
These threads are fascinating, frustrating and futile. It's like a car accident that you can't look away from. Because no matter what, even when backed into an inescapable corner, there's always the "goddidit by magic" clause.

It's just a question of how long it takes before it kicks in, because most of those who believe in a literal flood are still happy enough to use it at the very start to explain things such as how Noah procured all the animals needed, or how they all got back to their original habitats, etc. Yet they insist on trying to argue the feasability of actually building the ark, or having it be seaworthy rather than just say "god just changed the laws of physics for that instance".

The complaints come in strong and hard in those instances that one is copping out.
So your complaint can't hold any water.
But I do point out that God has an unusual control over water and it's properties. 
Saying, material in the scriptures in one place, supports the scriptures in other places.
And the stories also confirm themselves.  Like people who complain about rough seas,
I point out that no rough seas are mentioned.  People who complain about room for every
known species, I point out that "every known species" is a modern construct. Also not
in the story.  About animals eating each other, I point out that GOD brought them to the Ark.
He showed that much influence, he could have them not eat each other.  That's not a stretch.

So you really think a loving God would drown little children, babies?  Man they must've been horrible little babies to deserve that.

THE Bible is a DISGRACE to GOD.

Babies die every day without any Bibles around.  I've watched people die.  Age has no bearing.
Drowning is not exactly torture. I been tortured.  I've been ready to die from pain.
Drowning is painless.  Living is way more painful than drowning, any day of the week.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: SkyWriting on June 18, 2013, 09:21:47 AM
But I do point out that God has an unusual control over water and it's properties. 
Saying, material in the scriptures in one place, supports the scriptures in other places.
And the stories also confirm themselves.  Like people who complain about rough seas,
I point out that no rough seas are mentioned.  People who complain about room for every
known species, I point out that "every known species" is a modern construct. Also not
in the story.  About animals eating each other, I point out that GOD brought them to the Ark.
He showed that much influence, he could have them not eat each other.  That's not a stretch.

I could grant all that.  Let's face it, a being with total control could have ensured that the flood waters simply rose to a height of 6" above the head of every human - so there would be no "flat top" to the flood, just a surface with umpteen bumps and hillocks that moved around as the humans ran around trying to reach the water-free area always just out of their reach.  And equally a super-powerful god could keep the animals from eating each other, and create food for them each day on the ark.  And alter the shape of the earth and the continents before, during, and after.

But the question that is begged by allowing all those magical intercessions, is why?  What a ridiculously convoluted plan to devise, implement, and clear up after!  Reminiscenr of Dr.Evil at his little-finger curling best!  It makes the forty days of rain quite irrelevant - if the water would be coming in a sort of cylinder around each human, then just a couple days would do it.  Heck, why even make the rain land?  Just make the rain fall and "stick" in a bubble around people's heads?  Same end result, much less clear-up required.

I liked the picture of the Red Sea, BTW.  DOES make me wonder why an Ark was even necessary - easier by far to simply hold back the waters around Noah's compound and save the building and stocking and whatnot.  Equally, no need to gather animals - just keep a similar "zone of dryness" around them all.  Equally, why not teleport the animals onto the Ark?  Why not "poof" the Ark into being?  Why not transport them all 40 days into the future, or give them the power of flight for a month or two, or.......anything really.

Point being, once the explanation starts to ignore everything we know about math, and climate, and fluid dynamics et al, and becomes "god is magic!".....then the whole story just becomes somewhat contrived and pointless.

Best to imagine that it did happen, and that we do not know the details of how it happened.  Both true.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: sun_king on June 18, 2013, 09:42:00 AM
Best to imagine that it did happen, and that we do not know the details of how it happened.  Both true.

SW, I am a Hindu. The trouble here is that we Hindu's have our own version of a flood[1]. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matsya )

What makes your story true? These floods are mutually exclusive, so unless you give some evidence to support your claim, the first story gets credit of being original. It is time for details.

Oh, by the way, there are gods in both stories. So god did it wouldn't probably work in your favor.
 1. There are other flood myths too
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on June 18, 2013, 10:00:42 AM

Best to imagine that it did happen...


Nah, its better to know that it didn't. Making up crap is time consuming.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Anfauglir on June 18, 2013, 10:03:52 AM
Best to imagine that it did happen, and that we do not know the details of how it happened.  Both true.

Why?  When do much requires random magical powers and assumptions, what makes it "best to imagine it did happen", when all the evidence we have points against it?

Good job ignoring almost every point I made, by the way. 
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: jdawg70 on June 18, 2013, 10:05:08 AM
Babies die every day without any Bibles around.  I've watched people die.  Age has no bearing.
Drowning is not exactly torture. I been tortured.  I've been ready to die from pain.
Drowning is painless.  Living is way more painful than drowning, any day of the week.
Wow.  Just wow.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Jag on June 18, 2013, 10:14:57 AM
^^^My sentiments exactly.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Astreja on June 18, 2013, 10:20:32 AM
Living is way more painful than drowning, any day of the week.

I prefer to live and to work with the pain, so as to access the good things that life has to offer.

Tell you a little story, SW:  I know what pain is.  I was teased in elementary school and cried almost every day from the teasing. I went on to star in a play, write in the school paper, sing in choirs, win a math competition and rock the SAT tests with 99% percentiles across the board.

I had the misfortune to marry a man who pulled a bait-and-switch on Me and turned into a total rat bastard, an unfaithful and financially irresponsible narcissist with a BDSM fetish.  The stress of divorcing him made Me quite ill, but I kept going.  Life post-Whatsisname is pure gold, with a new home and financial security.

And I had a bad fall on the ice a couple of months ago, and ripped the living shit out of My left hamstring.  Pain was at 10/10, the kind that makes the skin on the back of your hands shiver.  I got to the doctor and played everything by the book (RICE, RICE, RICE -- No heat at all, much as I wanted to soak in a hot bath) because I had Plans for that week.  Two days later I was back at work (although still icing the injury), that evening I was at band practice, and the following Sunday I was playing at a music festival.

Don't expect your afterlife to be magically better than this life.  Live like you've got one shot at it, and do what you have to do to make it work for you.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: jaimehlers on June 18, 2013, 11:05:40 AM
Best to imagine that it did happen, and that we do not know the details of how it happened.  Both true.
Incorrect on both counts.  The first is exceedingly dubious - not to mention foolish, since it's basically gullible credulousness - and the second is ignorantly inane.  Just because someone wrote about something does not mean it actually happened (see every fictional book ever written), so it is not a smart idea to imagine that something happened just because you read about it in a book, while simultaneously saying, "I don't know the details, but I'm sure it happened like the Bible said".
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: junebug72 on June 18, 2013, 06:33:53 PM

THE Bible is a DISGRACE to GOD.

Babies die every day without any Bibles around.  I've watched people die.  Age has no bearing.
Drowning is not exactly torture. I been tortured.  I've been ready to die from pain.
Drowning is painless.  Living is way more painful than drowning, any day of the week.

Thanks for finally acknowledging me SW. 

I can't believe you actually consider this LOVE.  IMO, God masters the art of controlling emotions.  If I were to describe a perfect person, I would start by saying she is good to others.  I would then have to include masters emotions.  No anger management necessary.  Moses describes God as both angry and jealous.  You can't behave this way and be perfect.  Then intelligent, athletic, healthy, compassionate,  articulate and funny.  Now if the bible were true it definitely describes an imperfect God.  If this were how God really was I would join teams with the devil.  I don't believe it though.  I believe that God really loves us and would never do the things the bible describes.

At the time Christianity was becoming a religion it was very violent.  Many Christians were stoned and beheaded for their religion.  I'm sure they did their best to spread the Gospel of Christ and keep it honest but eventually the Romans took over and made it into what they wanted it to be.  They did however leave enough to guide you to the light but most Christians I know of just don't listen to Jesus.  Good fruit doesn't mean converting someone it means are you being kind to your fellow man, making sure to forgive, giving freely to the poor, turning the other cheek, being humble and lastly DO NOT JUDGE OTHERS.   Jesus could not have set a better example or made that point anymore clear but Christians are the first to judge.

Jesus did not disgrace God nor does the New Testament, but Sir the Old Testament IS A DISGRACE TO GOD.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 18, 2013, 11:26:15 PM
Babies die every day without any Bibles around.  I've watched people die.  Age has no bearing.
Drowning is not exactly torture. I been tortured.  I've been ready to die from pain.
Drowning is painless.  Living is way more painful than drowning, any day of the week.
Wow.  Just wow.

Oh, yeah. Drowning newborn babies is just fine, if a god does it. And, it was painless, not that it really matters, because those babies were stone cold evil. And slavery was cool, too, 'cause god said so. Wiping out entire ethnic groups for not believing in the correct faith is equally awesome, if god tells you it's okay. 

That is why we get so freaked out over religion-- who else could say that sh!t and be considered sane? Would you want someone calling themselves a god to drown your child, SW? I sincerely hope not.[1]
 1. Waterboarding is just simulated drowning, pouring water up someone's nose so they fear they will die. It is horrible, and it is recognized as torture--even though the person does not really die.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Anfauglir on June 19, 2013, 01:58:34 AM
Drowning is painless.  Living is way more painful than drowning, any day of the week.

Sky, should drowning be considered in any way mitigation in a murder case, on the grounds that it is painless?

Or might the jury feel that the fear and the terro experienced going through the process would make it just as horrible a way to be murdered than by slicing their head off?  Indeed, might not drowning be considered MORE horrific a way to be murdered than beheading (especially if that beheading were done from behind without warning), because of the 2 minutes it would take before you lost consciousness?   What about the last few hours clinging to a piece of driftwood knowing that help would never come, watching your children, your parents, slipping beneath the waves? 

Point being: Yahweh could have just stopped all the bad guys hearts, simultaneously.  Or just made it so they went to sleep one night and just never woke up.  There are MANY ways he could have murdered them without any pain, and with a lot less fuss and bother.

But he didn't.  He chose a way that would cause maximum fear and despair in each and every one of them.  Imagine the fear the toddlers would have felt, as the rains kept coming and coming and mummy and daddy are running and screaming and the waters close over you and you start to choke but mummy saves you and you hold the wood but mummy closes her eyes and she goes under the water and you cry and cry for mummy and then the water gets in you and you choke and you can't breathe CAN'T BREATHE CAN'T BREATHE......

Tell me again how loving your god is.  Read that paragraph again, and try to justify what your god CHOSE to do to that child.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: SkyWriting on June 20, 2013, 09:01:22 AM

THE Bible is a DISGRACE to GOD.

Babies die every day without any Bibles around.  I've watched people die.  Age has no bearing.
Drowning is not exactly torture. I been tortured.  I've been ready to die from pain.
Drowning is painless.  Living is way more painful than drowning, any day of the week.

Thanks for finally acknowledging me SW. 

I can't believe you actually consider this LOVE.  IMO, God masters the art of controlling emotions.  If I were to describe a perfect person, I would start by saying she is good to others.  I would then have to include masters emotions.  No anger management necessary.  Moses describes God as both angry and jealous.  You can't behave this way and be perfect.  Then intelligent, athletic, healthy, compassionate,  articulate and funny.  Now if the bible were true it definitely describes an imperfect God.  If this were how God really was I would join teams with the devil.  I don't believe it though.  I believe that God really loves us and would never do the things the bible describes. At the time Christianity was becoming a religion it was very violent.  Many Christians were stoned and beheaded for their religion.  I'm sure they did their best to spread the Gospel of Christ and keep it honest but eventually the Romans took over and made it into what they wanted it to be.  They did however leave enough to guide you to the light but most Christians I know of just don't listen to Jesus.  Good fruit doesn't mean converting someone it means are you being kind to your fellow man, making sure to forgive, giving freely to the poor, turning the other cheek, being humble and lastly DO NOT JUDGE OTHERS.   Jesus could not have set a better example or made that point anymore clear but Christians are the first to judge. Jesus did not disgrace God nor does the New Testament, but Sir the Old Testament IS A DISGRACE TO GOD.

Jesus said when you have seen me, you have seen the Father.   The Old Testament is about how people viewed the Father before Jesus.    It's just a documentary to learn from.  I consider it accurate, not Holy.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: SkyWriting on June 20, 2013, 09:07:00 AM
Drowning is painless.  Living is way more painful than drowning, any day of the week.

Sky, should drowning be considered in any way mitigation in a murder case, on the grounds that it is painless?

Or might the jury feel that the fear and the terro experienced going through the process would make it just as horrible a way to be murdered than by slicing their head off?  Indeed, might not drowning be considered MORE horrific a way to be murdered than beheading (especially if that beheading were done from behind without warning), because of the 2 minutes it would take before you lost consciousness?   What about the last few hours clinging to a piece of driftwood knowing that help would never come, watching your children, your parents, slipping beneath the waves? 

Point being: Yahweh could have just stopped all the bad guys hearts, simultaneously.  Or just made it so they went to sleep one night and just never woke up.  There are MANY ways he could have murdered them without any pain, and with a lot less fuss and bother.

But he didn't.  He chose a way that would cause maximum fear and despair in each and every one of them.  Imagine the fear the toddlers would have felt, as the rains kept coming and coming and mummy and daddy are running and screaming and the waters close over you and you start to choke but mummy saves you and you hold the wood but mummy closes her eyes and she goes under the water and you cry and cry for mummy and then the water gets in you and you choke and you can't breathe CAN'T BREATHE CAN'T BREATHE......

Tell me again how loving your god is.  Read that paragraph again, and try to justify what your god CHOSE to do to that child.

Children do not suffer when they drown.  It's physiology.  They spend the most critical months of their lives, learning and developing in fluid.  When they are thrown in water they are pleased to be under it.
https://www.google.com/search?q=toddler+under+water&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=nwzDUf2eEObBygGX1YCYBg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=899
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Azdgari on June 20, 2013, 09:21:11 AM
Children happily swimming in water =|= children drowning.  Got pics of those?
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Dante on June 20, 2013, 09:29:20 AM
Drowning is painless.  Living is way more painful than drowning, any day of the week.

Then why are you still here? Why don't you take a long walk off a short pier?
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Mrjason on June 20, 2013, 09:31:20 AM
Children do not suffer when they drown.

You are aware that children are humans aren't you?

It's physiology.  They spend the most critical months of their lives, learning and developing in fluid.

They also spend the first few months not breathing on their own.   

When they are thrown in water they are pleased to be under it.

not for long they're not.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: William on June 20, 2013, 09:35:48 AM
Children do not suffer when they drown.  It's physiology.

This is ABSOLUTE bullshit!  They instinctively hold their breath when first submerged but when the water eventually hits their lungs they struggle and panic just like anyone older - ask ANY experienced swimming pool lifeguard!!!  After the initial attempt to get air they go silent - just like adults too.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: William on June 20, 2013, 10:23:33 AM
Here, read this:

Quote
Drowning signs aren't like the movies ..........Parents, you have to understand that the struggle of the drowning person lasts between 20 and 60 seconds. Young children struggle less than adults. The drowning movements of a young child can look like they're actually doing the dog paddle in the water when they're actually drowning."
http://www.wivb.com/dpp/news/buffalo/Drowning-signs-arent-like-the-movies

Just because the untrained eye thinks the child (or adult) is perfectly okay and there's no splashing and yelling it doesn't mean they're not in fear and physically fighting for air.  Very young toddlers simply don't have the strength to put up an obvious struggle. That does not mean there is no suffering going on - only that it is quick and difficult to observe.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Jag on June 20, 2013, 01:00:47 PM
SW, if you really believe that I hope to Darwin you never have children. And if it's too late and you've already reproduced, I sincerely hope for their sake that their mother has more common sense than you do.

This is the most ridiculous thing I've read in ages and I spend a lot of time on the internet.  :o
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Samothec on June 20, 2013, 01:47:46 PM
Best to imagine that {the flood} did happen, and that we do not know the details of how it happened.  Both true.
You really have no critical thinking skills do you? Try really imagining the flood: all those people and animals terrified and drowning. World-wide. Then afterwards the stench of death and decay lingering. The being that caused that is supremely evil beyond anything else. A decent being would have only killed the humans it wanted dead - whether by animal attack or disease or some other human-specific death.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 20, 2013, 02:51:51 PM
SW will not address these points, because if he begins to, it would be too hard for him. His worldview does not allow for the bible stories to be fictional or for his god to do things that most people would consider evil. One of those has to be the case in the Noah story. Reality bites, and so forth. Too painful.

Unlike drowning, which is FUN, FUN, FUN for the entire family! Can't imagine why people struggle when they start to sink--it's so relaxing to die like that, with water rushing into your lungs. Painless. 

Instead of having abortion or contraception, just wait nine months, give birth and toss the baby into the nearest river. SW would approve. Painless.

Disneyland should build a Noah's Ark/Titanic ride where everyone actually drowns at the end! Hilarity will ensue. Painless.

Hey--instead of just a brief immersion, churches should hold people under for five minutes when they baptize folks, and send them right on to heaven. Painless.

God, is that POV effed up or what? :P &)

On the other hand, SW may be a  sociopath. If that is part of his problem, he will never understand why we are upset.  :(
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: wright on June 20, 2013, 04:19:07 PM


Children do not suffer when they drown.  It's physiology.  They spend the most critical months of their lives, learning and developing in fluid.  When they are thrown in water they are pleased to be under it.
https://www.google.com/search?q=toddler+under+water&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=nwzDUf2eEObBygGX1YCYBg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=899

If you really believe this, if you aren't just trolling, then I feel terrified for any child under your care.

On the other hand, SW may be a  sociopath. If that is part of his problem, he will never understand why we are upset.  :(


The same thought crossed my mind, after such an expressed lack of empathy.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: jaimehlers on June 20, 2013, 04:59:53 PM
It's worse than that.  He actually thinks that the supernatural would keep science from being able to discover it.

I am fully aware that the process of science is unable to confirm any instance of supernatural intervention. The scriptures document this using scientists in the example.

Jesus turns water into wine.  A scientist on the scene examines the fluid and declares it the best wine he has tasted. As a work of fiction, I don't see the point to the story. As a work of nonfiction, it doesn't have to have one, because it is simply documenting what happened.

But, if one is assuming non-fiction, then it tells us science is unable to accurately determine historical events if there is supernatural intervention.   The "scientist" on the scene is not in error in his analysis, and should be relieved of his job as the food scientist of the day.   Just as scientists today are not wrong about the age of the earth.   As this story shows us, science is not likely to be fully correct if there is any supernatural intervention.

What amazed me is the idea he had that there would be no point to someone making up a story about a scientist verifying something that Jesus did when he did it.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: junebug72 on June 20, 2013, 05:57:57 PM


Jesus said when you have seen me, you have seen the Father.   The Old Testament is about how people viewed the Father before Jesus.    It's just a documentary to learn from.  I consider it accurate, not Holy.

If you do not consider it holy why are you so gungho on believing it? IMO, God gave the scientist the knowledge that contradicts bible stories so that we can understand God better than those guys, and you just toss it aside like it ain't nothing.


If you really look at what Jesus teaches he really dissed Moses especially here- Please read -Matthew 23 and let me know if you think the Christian church is following Jesus.  He also let us know it was okay to question religious leaders and beware of false doctrine.  I'm afraid you have fallen victim to false doctrine.

Always be careful what attributes you assign to God.  As Jesus explained words are like a double edged sword.  Those remarks about babies were a nuclear bomb.

I think Jesus means you can define my father by my actions not what the ancestors believed.  The same is true today we can show people a loving God as Jesus did or we can show them a cruel prejudice God that doesn't deserve respect.
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Jag on June 20, 2013, 07:39:40 PM
Ooooh, oohooh! This is a golden opportunity to share a little gem I used in a poli sci class! Yay!

Stephen Colbert makes a very good point (http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/colbert-follows-oreillys-logic-weve-)
Title: Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
Post by: Anfauglir on June 22, 2013, 10:25:09 AM
Drowning is painless.  Living is way more painful than drowning, any day of the week.

Sky, should drowning be considered in any way mitigation in a murder case, on the grounds that it is painless?

Or might the jury feel that the fear and the terro experienced going through the process would make it just as horrible a way to be murdered than by slicing their head off?  Indeed, might not drowning be considered MORE horrific a way to be murdered than beheading (especially if that beheading were done from behind without warning), because of the 2 minutes it would take before you lost consciousness?   What about the last few hours clinging to a piece of driftwood knowing that help would never come, watching your children, your parents, slipping beneath the waves? 

Point being: Yahweh could have just stopped all the bad guys hearts, simultaneously.  Or just made it so they went to sleep one night and just never woke up.  There are MANY ways he could have murdered them without any pain, and with a lot less fuss and bother.

But he didn't.  He chose a way that would cause maximum fear and despair in each and every one of them.  Imagine the fear the toddlers would have felt, as the rains kept coming and coming and mummy and daddy are running and screaming and the waters close over you and you start to choke but mummy saves you and you hold the wood but mummy closes her eyes and she goes under the water and you cry and cry for mummy and then the water gets in you and you choke and you can't breathe CAN'T BREATHE CAN'T BREATHE......

Tell me again how loving your god is.  Read that paragraph again, and try to justify what your god CHOSE to do to that child.

Children do not suffer when they drown.  It's physiology.  They spend the most critical months of their lives, learning and developing in fluid.  When they are thrown in water they are pleased to be under it.

SkyWriting, you are pathetic.  You think "having fun in a swimming pool" is the same as "drowning because the rain wont stop and there's no bottom for your feet and nothing to hang on to and mummy and daddy are sinking and not coming up"?

You HAVE no answer, so that was the pathetic best you could come up with for your evil killer god.

And you KNOW you have no answer, but you are too in fear of your killer god to admit it - probably even to yourself.