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Main Discussion Zone => General Religious Discussion => Topic started by: junebug72 on May 22, 2013, 07:43:34 AM

Title: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 22, 2013, 07:43:34 AM
I know the atheists here don't believe in "superstitions" and what not, so this question is more for the theist in the forum.  I hope that the atheist members will have some input here as well.

I was watching the news last night.  They were reporting on the Ok. tornado.  At the end of the story they closed with an alarming fact.  America suffers 10 times more than Canada @ 100 per year. Do the math that is 1000 per year.  Thankfully they are not all as destructive as the most recent one.  It did however get me to thinking that maybe America is cursed.  It was taken by force from native americans and enslaved and beat Africans for hundreds of years. 

I was cooking dinner, I can't remember what broadcast I was watching, so sorry.  I did find this website w/ tornado facts.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001445.html

So do you think that America is cursed and if so why.

I do not in anyway think that anybody deserved to die. 
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: naemhni on May 22, 2013, 07:50:30 AM
I don't believe in curses, but since you did ask for atheist input...

I was watching the news last night.  They were reporting on the Ok. tornado.  At the end of the story they closed with an alarming fact.  America suffers 10 times more than Canada @ 100 per year. Do the math that is 1000 per year.  Thankfully they are not all as destructive as the most recent one.  It did however get me to thinking that maybe America is cursed.

Nothing so exotic as that.  It's simply that the climate in the Midwest is more "amenable" to creating tornadoes than the climate in most of Canada.  Canada, for the most part, has long, cold winters and short, mild summers.  Tornadoes rarely form in colder weather because they rely on thunderstorms for their formation, and thunderstorms are for the most part a warm weather phenomenon.  It's no more a curse than it is a curse on Canada that they get more snow than Oklahoma does.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Nick on May 22, 2013, 07:55:44 AM
Tornadoes have been a part of North America for 100s of years.  The warm air coming up from the gulf waters mixes with the cool air off of the Rockies.  Flat planes make for the perfect tornado ally area that we have.  Its nature at work...bottom line.

And yes we are cursed but not because of tornadoes. ;)
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Anfauglir on May 22, 2013, 08:15:23 AM
It did however get me to thinking that maybe America is cursed.  It was taken by force from native americans and enslaved and beat Africans for hundreds of years. 

So your contention is that there were no (or significantly fewer) tornados in the US before around the 1600s?

Just wondering also - who or what do you think is doing the cursing?  From what you've said above, it sounds like you could be referring to Haokah, or Nenaunir perhaps?
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Nam on May 22, 2013, 08:25:09 AM
I don't believe in curses, but since you did ask for atheist input...

I was watching the news last night.  They were reporting on the Ok. tornado.  At the end of the story they closed with an alarming fact.  America suffers 10 times more than Canada @ 100 per year. Do the math that is 1000 per year.  Thankfully they are not all as destructive as the most recent one.  It did however get me to thinking that maybe America is cursed.

Nothing so exotic as that.  It's simply that the climate in the Midwest is more "amenable" to creating tornadoes than the climate in most of Canada.  Canada, for the most part, has long, cold winters and short, mild summers.  Tornadoes rarely form in colder weather because they rely on thunderstorms for their formation, and thunderstorms are for the most part a warm weather phenomenon.  It's no more a curse than it is a curse on Canada that they get more snow than Oklahoma does.

But Florida's tropical and we get a shitload of rain which makes it cooler[1] but we have not only tornadoes but hurricanes, too!

Florida must be cursed!

:P

-Nam
 1. not really
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 22, 2013, 08:33:09 AM
Not a particularly information-heavy article or anything, but a starting point:
http://curiosity.discovery.com/question/why-united-states-more-tornadoes
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Jag on May 22, 2013, 08:42:47 AM
Japan probably gets more tsunamis than the US. Canada probably gets more blizzards/snowstorms than the US. The Middle East probably gets more sandstorms than the US. These are all naturally occurring events that are not new. Certain weather events are more likely in certain places - topography, climate, ocean proximity, size of land mass in question, all of these have a role in weather events.

Don't fall for the evangelical explanation of God judging us - it only holds up until you think. Other places have fatalities due to weather, and they are just as likely to have strong beliefs in their own gods too. Thus, even if god exists, unless he is responsible for all weather events he is responsible for none of them.

The US is not unique in being brutal to natives upon settlement. Australia has a bloody history that's comparatively recent as well - the aboriginals did not fare well under the new settlers. The British Empire was not a peace-promoting mission, it was a violent expansive land and power grab. It's a pattern that holds true for almost every expansion throughout history and is hardly specific to this country. If your premise were valid, the entire planet would have been wiped out centuries ago.

Read up on hard/soft/sticky power and then compare that information to world history. It can be quite eye-opening to see who employed what method, what was going on in the world at the time (because we might hate politics but it's too significant to ignore it if we want to understand the world we live in) and what the results actually were.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Nick on May 22, 2013, 08:49:04 AM
I don't believe in curses, but since you did ask for atheist input...

I was watching the news last night.  They were reporting on the Ok. tornado.  At the end of the story they closed with an alarming fact.  America suffers 10 times more than Canada @ 100 per year. Do the math that is 1000 per year.  Thankfully they are not all as destructive as the most recent one.  It did however get me to thinking that maybe America is cursed.

Nothing so exotic as that.  It's simply that the climate in the Midwest is more "amenable" to creating tornadoes than the climate in most of Canada.  Canada, for the most part, has long, cold winters and short, mild summers.  Tornadoes rarely form in colder weather because they rely on thunderstorms for their formation, and thunderstorms are for the most part a warm weather phenomenon.  It's no more a curse than it is a curse on Canada that they get more snow than Oklahoma does.

But Florida's tropical and we get a shitload of rain which makes it cooler[1] but we have not only tornadoes but hurricanes, too!

Florida must be cursed!

:P

-Nam
 1. not really
I don't believe in curses but if any place could be cursed it would be Florida. ;)
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Graybeard on May 22, 2013, 09:04:50 AM

So do you think that America is cursed?


What, exactly and in the sense you use it, is a curse?
How do curses work? (The answer must not contain reference to magic or other supernatural causes.)
Who is able to curse things and what powers do they have to do this?

Simpleton answers like, "A curse is something you say and it happens." will score 0 marks, we want to know the physical mechanism relating the words to the event.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: neopagan on May 22, 2013, 09:16:37 AM
I know the atheists here don't believe in "superstitions" and what not, so this question is more for the theist in the forum.  I hope that the atheist members will have some input here as well.

  It did however get me to thinking that maybe America is cursed.  It was taken by force from native americans and enslaved and beat Africans for hundreds of years. 

So do you think that America is cursed and if so why.

I do not in anyway think that anybody deserved to die.

I live in OK and no, I don't see any evidence of these curses you speak of - who would do the cursing and how? 

Besides, I'd bet Canada has 10 times more frostbite, bear attacks, dead batteries, and heart attacks traced to back bacon than the US...

Australia has waaay more skin cancer than Canada, so I'm guessing they are cursed since they displaced the Aborogines?

...post hoc ergo propter hoc... ???



Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on May 22, 2013, 09:21:15 AM
We Aboriginal Americans would have cursed "whitey" with plagues along time ago,but were cursed with a plague from "whitey" short after his arrival .......some would just plain call it germ warfare,Smallpox....but I am sure we viewed it as a curse as we died by the thousands.

If curses worked we would still be many Indian nations roaming free in our territories......but maybe some curses are stronger than others.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Jag on May 22, 2013, 09:23:15 AM

So do you think that America is cursed?


What, exactly and in the sense you use it, is a curse?
How do curses work? (The answer must not contain reference to magic or other supernatural causes.)
Who is able to curse things and what powers do they have to do this?

Simpleton answers like, "A curse is something you say and it happens." will score 0 marks, we want to know the physical mechanism relating the words to the event.

Waiting patiently for jb to define and clarify her terms....
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: ParkingPlaces on May 22, 2013, 09:38:47 AM
I think the OP  is right. America is cursed. Because, you see, we haven't legalized gay marriage nation-wide like Canada. So until we do, Junebug, expect more horrible stuff. I personally expect the new lineup of Fall reality shows to be a complete disaster, for instance.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Quesi on May 22, 2013, 10:23:51 AM
Is Bangladesh cursed?  The Sudan?  They certainly have more weather related deaths per year than the US.  And weather in those nations has destroyed attempts at creating and maintaining the kind of infrastructure that we in the first world are accustomed to.

But why focus just on weather?  There are so many natural disasters.  We've seen Japan devastated by a tsunami, and a few years before that, the massive tsunami of 2004 killed hundreds of thousands of people.  Earthquakes?  Haiti is still recovering from the devastation of its most recent earthquake.  Mexico City, Santiago Chile, and so many other national capitals have been devastated in recent decades. 

Corporate greed (you hate greed, right?) has sure as hell caused hundreds of thousands of deaths (if not more) in recent decades.  From the struggle over mining coltan in the Congo to the US State Department intervention to support United Fruits profits in Central America, to the deadly factory conditions all over the third world, there is incomprehensible human suffering.  And the Oklahoma shelters in which these displaced families are temporarily living, are full of luxuries that most of the world does not have access to.   Clean water.  Electricity.  Food.  Wifi. 

Cursed?  The fact that such a huge percentage of our nation is composed of literate people who have leisure time to contemplate the question seems to indicate that our suffering and tragedies are minor compared to those of most of the rest of the world. 

 
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Tonus on May 22, 2013, 10:25:02 AM
So do you think that America is cursed and if so why.

"Cursed" would, to me, imply that there is some external supernatural agent affecting what happens.  If the climate or weather patterns of a particular part of the USA causes many more tornadoes than elsewhere, then that's the cause.  No other agent is necessary.  In the same way that places that sit on fault lines will experience more (and/or more severe) earthquakes than other places.  And so on.

Our minds can be described as "pattern seeking missiles."  We absolutely hate not knowing the why and how of anything, and if we cannot find it through research and study, we reach for anything else available.  You will see this whenever there is a tragic occurrence.  I can recall the insistence from some corners that the Columbine shootings were the result of violent video games.  And I understand that Pat Robertson has blamed the recent tornadoes in Oklahoma on a lack of prayer.  Although that latter is less because it satisfies a need for answers and more because Pat Robertson is a repulsive opportunist and vile human being.

In any case, I don't believe in curses.  I believe that we identify patterns where there are none and call them curses, or lack of prayer, or whatever gives us the answer we want.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 22, 2013, 10:30:06 AM
And yes we are cursed but not because of tornadoes. ;)

You say tornadoes, I say pornadoes. Let's call the whole thing off.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: jaimehlers on May 22, 2013, 10:33:36 AM
No more cursed than people who live in New Orleans who have to deal with frequent hurricanes, or people who live in California who have to deal with frequent earthquakes, or people who live in India who have to deal with monsoons, or people in Japan who have to deal with typhoons...the list goes on and on.

Please don't mistake weather and geological processes for something that's trying to punish human beings.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Nam on May 22, 2013, 10:34:03 AM
I hate pornadoes. They're worse than Evangelical Christians...wait...I take that back.

-Nam
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: naemhni on May 22, 2013, 10:48:22 AM
The fact that such a huge percentage of our nation is composed of literate people who have leisure time to contemplate the question seems to indicate that our suffering and tragedies are minor compared to those of most of the rest of the world.

True.  I was having dinner a few months back with a friend of mine who's a foreign policy analyst at the Cato Institute.  She told me about this concept called a "First World Problem".

Example:  This afternoon, I have to go to the dentist to get a cavity filled, which sucks.  The cavity is on one of my wisdom teeth, which sucks even more because it will be difficult for the dentist to get to.  I'm preparing for this by getting ready to take my sedatives before I see the dentist, bringing my iPod Touch with me so I can listen to Steve Roach's "Quiet Music 2" while the dentist is working, scheduling my meals so that I'll be able to work my mealtimes around the dental work, and so on.  (I even gave a lot of thought as to which clothes to wear today so I would be as comfortable as possible.)

This is a First World Problem, for reasons that are pretty obvious once the notion occurs to you.  One cavity, which I'm able to have properly taken care of (with money out of my own pocket), with paid time off from work, after having had enough to eat, with soothing music I can listen to and sedatives I can take to help me relax, blah blah blah blah blah.  I haven't ever actually looked into it, but I'd bet a year's pay that there are many millions of people in the world who have never seen a dentist at all or who can't afford to see one.  Ditto for MP3 players and, of course, having enough to eat.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: sun_king on May 22, 2013, 11:41:21 AM
Junebug, in the other thread you were saying that life was a gift. Now you think the same life is cursed.

Gift, curse... care to make up your mind?
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Jag on May 22, 2013, 12:00:52 PM
^^^Perfect example of WWoDT - Wonderful World of Double Think.

Examined in detail by Orwell in "1984"; message apparently missed or misunderstood by the majority of the public, sadly.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Seppuku on May 22, 2013, 12:27:32 PM
No I would not say it is cursed as I am sure you are not surprised I would say that. :)

However, America's climate makes it more prone to things like tornadoes than some countries, Canada doesn't suffer so much because it has a different climate. Same as the UK, but we do seem a lot more prone to rain. It's just like any where along the fault lines on any of the tectonic plates are more prone to earthquakes and in some instances, it can be on a pretty large scale. It's just the way the natural world works. Unfortunately tornadoes is one of those forms of weather than can be pretty destructive. We even get them in the UK, but for us, they are very minor, but our climate doesn't really suit a tornado well enough to give it the destructive power it needs.

But America isn't the only country to suffer from devastating climates, I mean, for many parts of Africa it means lack of crop growth due to the massive heat waves and lack of rain. Japan and many of the Islands East of Australia are prone to typhoons.

These aren't curses, it's simply down to climate.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: magicmiles on May 22, 2013, 03:39:32 PM
Yes. By Frank.[1]
 1. some of you will get it
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Jag on May 22, 2013, 03:54:25 PM
^^^Well, you know what we have to do then..... :-*
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Nam on May 22, 2013, 03:56:33 PM
I miss Frank.

-Nam
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 22, 2013, 05:00:24 PM
It did however get me to thinking that maybe America is cursed.  It was taken by force from native americans and enslaved and beat Africans for hundreds of years. 

So your contention is that there were no (or significantly fewer) tornados in the US before around the 1600s?

Just wondering also - who or what do you think is doing the cursing?  From what you've said above, it sounds like you could be referring to Haokah, or Nenaunir perhaps?

It could be any god.  Whatever God you believe in or think could be responsible.  I'm most curious as to what Christian Believers have to say.  I also appreciate your input A.

Jag,

If this doesn't clear it up for you too let me know.  Same goes for the rest of you.  Appreciate you too.

Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 22, 2013, 05:03:41 PM
I know I haven't gotten to all.  I have to spend some time with my sweety. :-*

I'll answer questions and respond to posts bright and early. 

Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: nogodsforme on May 22, 2013, 06:04:14 PM
There is no place on the planet that not prone to some sort of natural hazards. The earth is a very volatile and generally inhospitable place, especially for human beings. Imagine trying to live on the earth naked and without a shelter. Most of the earth is too hot, too cold, too windy, too rocky, too wet, etc. for human beings au naturel to survive in anything like comfort. We have to work really hard to make the earth a nice place to live.

(That is why it is so strange that creationists try to argue that the planet earth is the "perfect" made-by-god home for humans. )

The places that people really like to populate are places close to water. But nice watery places, like river valleys, ocean coastlines, tropical areas and volcanic islands, are the most dangerous areas of all.

The most stable areas-- from the standpoint of natural hazards-- are the centers of continents away from tectonic plate ridges, the polar regions and the middle of large deserts. Flat, boring, featureless places with no vegetation, far from water and far from volcanic mountains. Mongolia, Antarctica are very safe from earthquakes, volcanoes, hurricanes, tornadoes and tsunamis.  Very difficult to farm or fish, so unlikely to attract large populations. 

Turkey, Iran, Indonesia, Japan and the Caribbean are highly populated, beautifully varied and get way more than their share of disasters. The more beautiful and varied the landscape, the more likely it is to kick yer a$$. :o
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: magicmiles on May 22, 2013, 06:15:26 PM
We have to work really hard to make the earth a nice place to live.

(That is why it is so strange that creationists try to argue that the planet earth is the "perfect" made-by-god home for humans. )

It was. Now it isn't. That's what the bible shows.

Of course, its pretty well placed in terms of its distance from the sun.

Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: nogodsforme on May 22, 2013, 06:26:45 PM
We have to work really hard to make the earth a nice place to live.

(That is why it is so strange that creationists try to argue that the planet earth is the "perfect" made-by-god home for humans. )

It was. Now it isn't. That's what the bible shows.

Of course, its pretty well placed in terms of its distance from the sun.

Please explain. The earth was perfect at one time, and now it is not. So god made the earth nice and then messed it up because of the Adam and Eve? He made the whole earth tropical in climate, but added the deserts and polar regions later? Do you think that the volcanoes and tectonic movements and wind currents are due to human misbehavior? Or are you saying something else?

(Nerdy hat on.) And as for distance from the sun, the earth's distance varies during the year from 147 million km. to 152 million km. So, the earth can be 5 million km closer or 5 million km farther away during the year and we hardly notice. (I know I haven't noticed.) That means there is not one "perfect" distance from the sun, but a big range in which life on earth is possible. (Nerdy hat removed.)

I did kilometers for you MM. ;)
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on May 22, 2013, 06:39:02 PM
We have to work really hard to make the earth a nice place to live.

(That is why it is so strange that creationists try to argue that the planet earth is the "perfect" made-by-god home for humans. )

It was. Now it isn't. That's what the bible shows.

Of course, its pretty well placed in terms of its distance from the sun.
That's nice,but if we put you 200 miles outside a city,without food,water or simple tools you would probably die. One of the only reasons we are still here is that F**king is fun and we did it lots in the early years and kept the babies coming. With climate change and abundant over-population,the days on the planet for humans are numbered and NO God will be able to do anything to stop it.

 But then again you thumpers will just say Goddidit when the world comes to an end
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: magicmiles on May 22, 2013, 06:42:57 PM


I did kilometers for you MM. ;)

And I appreciate it.

However, I am unable to help you with details, as I have no idea how it all works. God quite clearly just treats wrongdoing so much more harshly than we can fathom.

Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Ambassador Pony on May 22, 2013, 06:44:57 PM
Quote
It was taken by force from native americans


Do natural disasters happen at a higher frequency in countries which have at one time had policies, or currently have policies to slaughter people and take their land? If so, Canada should have as many tornadoes.

I know this is going to sound crazy, but maybe such natural events have to do with climate and geography.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: magicmiles on May 22, 2013, 06:49:00 PM
We have to work really hard to make the earth a nice place to live.

(That is why it is so strange that creationists try to argue that the planet earth is the "perfect" made-by-god home for humans. )

It was. Now it isn't. That's what the bible shows.

Of course, its pretty well placed in terms of its distance from the sun.
That's nice,but if we put you 200 miles outside a city,without food,water or simple tools you would probably die.

Probably. By the way, the cool kids give me distance in kilometers.

Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: magicmiles on May 22, 2013, 06:54:33 PM
Quote
It was taken by force from native americans


Do natural disasters happen at a higher frequency in countries which have at one time has policies, or currently have policies to slaughter people and take their land? If so, Canada should have as many tornadoes.

I know this is going to sound crazy, but maybe such natural events have to do with climate and geography.

I don't think 12M was really suggesting otherwise. He just likes taking an opportunity to remind Americans that many of them live on land that's only available because of intervention by europeans.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Nam on May 22, 2013, 08:55:30 PM
Quote
It was taken by force from native americans


Do natural disasters happen at a higher frequency in countries which have at one time has policies, or currently have policies to slaughter people and take their land? If so, Canada should have as many tornadoes.

I know this is going to sound crazy, but maybe such natural events have to do with climate and geography.


Don't forget all the countries in Central & South America plus the Caribbean.

-Nam
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Anfauglir on May 23, 2013, 01:50:48 AM
It did however get me to thinking that maybe America is cursed.  It was taken by force from native americans and enslaved and beat Africans for hundreds of years. 

So your contention is that there were no (or significantly fewer) tornados in the US before around the 1600s?

You missed this part of the question, Junebug.  Is that what you are suggesting?

Perhaps more to the point, you have been given a lot of information in this thread relating to the weather conditions in central US; or weather-related deaths in other countries; of similar levels of genocides and exploitation carried out in other countries, and how some of those countries have significant levels of weather-related deaths, and some do not.

I have two questions I would be interested in the answers to, Junebug.

First off, is your preferred explanation for central-US's level of tornados still "a curse", or are you now leaning more towards "natural result of terrain and climate in that area?"

And the second question.....how much research did you do on tornados et al before asking here "is America cursed"?  I know you did some, because you quote the difference between tornados in Canada and the US.  What I am interested in is whether you got that far, and thought "maybe America is cursed", or whether you read further first to discover what we know about how tornados form?
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 23, 2013, 05:11:58 AM

So do you think that America is cursed?


What, exactly and in the sense you use it, is a curse?
How do curses work? (The answer must not contain reference to magic or other supernatural causes.)
Who is able to curse things and what powers do they have to do this?

Simpleton answers like, "A curse is something you say and it happens." will score 0 marks, we want to know the physical mechanism relating the words to the event.

GB, I looked up "cursed" on wiki.  I would say if there is a source it would be human.  If enough people hate you and wish you harm, maybe that brings bad karma. It does define curses coming from magic and supernatural sources.  I think a pissed off human can cause some damage as well, like slashing tires, kill your grass, and recently this guy drove his tractor thru several of his neighbor's homes!  Then there is the tragic events of 911 and the other terrorist attacks. :'(

The only reason I even bring it up is because it pisses me off when politicians say God Bless America, like we're the only country in the world.  They govern as Christians, if you can call it that.  In a way do you think if they believe we're cursed they would change their ways?  I think if you make enough enemies you curse yourself.

As far as weather disasters, are we making more intense weather because of our pollution?  If this is true this would also be a self inflicted curse. 

Good thing about curses is they go away when you learn your lesson, don't you think.  You know make amends and say I'm sorry.

Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 23, 2013, 05:20:48 AM
Junebug, in the other thread you were saying that life was a gift. Now you think the same life is cursed.

Gift, curse... care to make up your mind?

Well it's both. Bittersweet, is it not?
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Anfauglir on May 23, 2013, 05:22:08 AM
I would say if there is a source it would be human.  If enough people hate you and wish you harm, maybe that brings bad karma.

Interesting point of view.  Do you feel there is a critical number of haters for a curse to take effect, or is there a sliding scale?  Is it purely a "quantity" thing, or does it vary depending on the scale of the hate - i.e. does one person seriously hating you cause the same level of curse to fall on you as ten people vaguely disliking you?  (Not implying those are actual numbers, but you see what I mean).

As far as weather disasters, are we making more intense weather because of our pollution?  If this is true this would also be a self inflicted curse. 

Not really, not in the sense that most people would use the term.  Because if the weather disasters are a natural effect of pollution, then "hate" (as you imply above) would not be a feature at all.  The same weather effects would occur if we polluted to the same level and loved everyone, as if we polluted to the same level and really hated everyone.

So I'm confused now - are you suggesting the weather effects are the natural and logical and scientific result of particular industrial processes?  Originally you suggested it was some kind of karmic thing that was happening because of the US' treatment of some races, and thus (presumably) would be happening even if pollution was zero?

Good thing about curses is they go away when you learn your lesson, don't you think.  You know make amends and say I'm sorry.

Do they?  I suppose if you believe they are the direct result of an action then possibly - if weather comes from pollution, then cease pollution and you cease the weather.  But if we're talking some kind of karmic effect from people hating you, then would the curse effect cease immediately?  What if the person still hates you even AFTER you've said sorry?  Do you believe the curse would stop, or keep going? 
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 23, 2013, 05:38:53 AM
Is Bangladesh cursed?  The Sudan?  They certainly have more weather related deaths per year than the US.  And weather in those nations has destroyed attempts at creating and maintaining the kind of infrastructure that we in the first world are accustomed to.

But why focus just on weather?  There are so many natural disasters.  We've seen Japan devastated by a tsunami, and a few years before that, the massive tsunami of 2004 killed hundreds of thousands of people.  Earthquakes?  Haiti is still recovering from the devastation of its most recent earthquake.  Mexico City, Santiago Chile, and so many other national capitals have been devastated in recent decades. 

Corporate greed (you hate greed, right?) has sure as hell caused hundreds of thousands of deaths (if not more) in recent decades.  From the struggle over mining coltan in the Congo to the US State Department intervention to support United Fruits profits in Central America, to the deadly factory conditions all over the third world, there is incomprehensible human suffering.  And the Oklahoma shelters in which these displaced families are temporarily living, are full of luxuries that most of the world does not have access to.   Clean water.  Electricity.  Food.  Wifi. 

Cursed?  The fact that such a huge percentage of our nation is composed of literate people who have leisure time to contemplate the question seems to indicate that our suffering and tragedies are minor compared to those of most of the rest of the world.

Very insightful post Quesi. 

Yes I hate greed.  After the Praise of Greed thread I have decided to scale greed 1-10.  I hate 8-10 and congratulate 5-7.  I would consider myself a 2.5. 

I agree with everything you have said in this post.  Great post.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 23, 2013, 05:54:43 AM
No more cursed than people who live in New Orleans who have to deal with frequent hurricanes, or people who live in California who have to deal with frequent earthquakes, or people who live in India who have to deal with monsoons, or people in Japan who have to deal with typhoons...the list goes on and on.

Please don't mistake weather and geological processes for something that's trying to punish human beings.

That's easier for you.  You do not believe in God.  I am not though.  Say I don't change the oil in my car.  Have I not cursed myself to have engine failure?
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: The Gawd on May 23, 2013, 05:56:23 AM
I wonder what jb's rationale for the continuous hurricane on a likely lifeless mars is...
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: HAL on May 23, 2013, 06:14:08 AM
Say I don't change the oil in my car.  Have I not cursed myself to have engine failure?

No -
   
Quote
curse  (kûrs)
n.
1.
a. An appeal or prayer for evil or misfortune to befall someone or something.
b. The evil or misfortune that comes in or as if in response to such an appeal: bewailed the curse of ill health.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/curse

You again have no idea what the hell you are talking about. You just throw words around with little knowledge of what they really mean. If you don't change the oil in your car you simply allow the chemistry and physics that go along with dirty oil to work it's affects on the engine. It has nothing to do with the definitions of a curse. Amazing.

Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Mrjason on May 23, 2013, 06:24:22 AM
I wonder what jb's rationale for the continuous hurricane on a likely lifeless mars is...

The people that don't live on Jupiter must have been really mean to the people that didn't live there before they errr didn't live there either[1]
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Red_Spot#Great_Red_Spot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Red_Spot#Great_Red_Spot)
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: The Gawd on May 23, 2013, 06:47:24 AM
The people that don't live on Jupiter must have been really mean to the people that didn't live there before they errr didn't live there either[1]
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Red_Spot#Great_Red_Spot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Red_Spot#Great_Red_Spot)

thank you, I meant Jupiter  ;D

Was thinking red planet instead of red spot!
What makes this thread even worse is that june's manufactured god has used the demise of children to promote his doctrine of love. and june will hand wave it away.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 23, 2013, 06:50:20 AM
^^^Perfect example of WWoDT - Wonderful World of Double Think.

Examined in detail by Orwell in "1984"; message apparently missed or misunderstood by the majority of the public, sadly.

Orwell- Born 1903 under the name Eric Arthur Blair, was a political novelist best known for Animal Farm and 1984.

http://www.isreview.org/issues/32/orwell.shtml


sounds like a good read.

Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: magicmiles on May 23, 2013, 06:54:48 AM
^^ Animal Farm is a great read. Contains minor symbolism.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 23, 2013, 06:55:44 AM
I wonder what jb's rationale for the continuous hurricane on a likely lifeless mars is...

That was an inappropriate smite Hal.  I never said I thought we were cursed only asked the question.  You are careless with smites.  The English language allows metaphorical use of words.  What is bad karma but you cursing me?  And for no good reason at all.

Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: The Gawd on May 23, 2013, 06:59:08 AM
That was an inappropriate smite Gawd.  I never said I thought we were cursed only asked the question.  You are careless with smites.  The English language allows metaphorical use of words.  What is bad karma but you cursing me?  And for no good reason at all.

Two things, A) I didnt smite you... I have only ever given MAYBE 3 smites EVER. Yes you did receive one, but not now. Read better.

B) read animal farm in 5th grade. I think it may fly right over your head due to reading gaffes like the one above

@ MM, animal farm is ALL symbolism... how you could call it minor is beyond me
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 23, 2013, 07:02:36 AM
Say I don't change the oil in my car.  Have I not cursed myself to have engine failure?

No -
   
Quote
curse  (kûrs)
n.
1.
a. An appeal or prayer for evil or misfortune to befall someone or something.
b. The evil or misfortune that comes in or as if in response to such an appeal: bewailed the curse of ill health.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/curse

You again have no idea what the hell you are talking about. You just throw words around with little knowledge of what they really mean. If you don't change the oil in your car you simply allow the chemistry and physics that go along with dirty oil to work it's affects on the engine. It has nothing to do with the definitions of a curse. Amazing.

You idiot.  Don't your brain get creative?  It's a damn curse if I'm on my way to the hospital with my daughter-in-law in labor!!!  I guarantee you I would curse like a sailor.  You are very careless with your smites!!!
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: HAL on May 23, 2013, 07:03:22 AM
That was an inappropriate smite Hal.  I never said I thought we were cursed only asked the question.  You are careless with smites.  The English language allows metaphorical use of words.  What is bad karma but you cursing me?  And for no good reason at all.

You clearly have no fucking idea what you are talking about. Go ahead and keep making a fool of yourself here - it's entertaining.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: magicmiles on May 23, 2013, 07:07:05 AM


@ MM, animal farm is ALL symbolism... how you could call it minor is beyond me

Deliberate understatement for the purpose of light-hearted humour.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: The Gawd on May 23, 2013, 07:09:57 AM

(http://www.2dopeboyz.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/dylan.gif)
*smites self*
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 23, 2013, 07:19:42 AM
It did however get me to thinking that maybe America is cursed.  It was taken by force from native americans and enslaved and beat Africans for hundreds of years. 

So your contention is that there were no (or significantly fewer) tornados in the US before around the 1600s?

You missed this part of the question, Junebug.  Is that what you are suggesting?

Perhaps more to the point, you have been given a lot of information in this thread relating to the weather conditions in central US; or weather-related deaths in other countries; of similar levels of genocides and exploitation carried out in other countries, and how some of those countries have significant levels of weather-related deaths, and some do not.

I have two questions I would be interested in the answers to, Junebug.

First off, is your preferred explanation for central-US's level of tornados still "a curse", or are you now leaning more towards "natural result of terrain and climate in that area?"

And the second question.....how much research did you do on tornados et al before asking here "is America cursed"?  I know you did some, because you quote the difference between tornados in Canada and the US.  What I am interested in is whether you got that far, and thought "maybe America is cursed", or whether you read further first to discover what we know about how tornados form?

Like i said in the OP I was really curious to hear from Christians on the subject.  So far I've only seen MM and his answers are vague.  Unless I've missed it I haven't seen a direct answer to the question.  I gather he's European and may not have much of an opinion on American curses.  The reason for that is I know a lot of Christians and every time something like this happens they say it's the wrath of God.  They see it as signs of Armageddon.

Is there anything you can do about the unworthy smite from Hal? How do you protest a smite?  I bet I've given  everyone on page 1 a thumbs up this morning and then Hal had to go and drop the smite bomb.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 23, 2013, 07:21:36 AM
That was an inappropriate smite Hal.  I never said I thought we were cursed only asked the question.  You are careless with smites.  The English language allows metaphorical use of words.  What is bad karma but you cursing me?  And for no good reason at all.

You clearly have no fucking idea what you are talking about. Go ahead and keep making a fool of yourself here - it's entertaining.

The only person making a fool is you. &)  You are smiting and making fun of me for a position I do not hold. lmao :laugh:
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: HAL on May 23, 2013, 07:23:21 AM
Is there anything you can do about the unworthy smite from Hal? How do you protest a smite?  I bet I've given  everyone on page 1 a thumbs up this morning and then Hal had to go and drop the smite bomb.

Tough shit. I gave a reason for it, and if I see any more ridiculous claims or idiotic quips I'll give you another one. If you don't want smites, don't say silly things like

Quote
Say I don't change the oil in my car.  Have I not cursed myself to have engine failure?

 :?

Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 23, 2013, 07:24:32 AM


@ MM, animal farm is ALL symbolism... how you could call it minor is beyond me

Deliberate understatement for the purpose of light-hearted humour.

Sorry MM, that's why I said I might have missed it.  I'm all over the place this morning. ;)
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: magicmiles on May 23, 2013, 07:27:17 AM
So far I've only seen MM and his answers are vague.

Yes, I haven't entered the discussion with serious intent. My apologies.

I do not think America is cursed.
I gather he's European and may not have much of an opinion on American curses. 

Nah, love. Australian.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 23, 2013, 07:35:01 AM
Is there anything you can do about the unworthy smite from Hal? How do you protest a smite?  I bet I've given  everyone on page 1 a thumbs up this morning and then Hal had to go and drop the smite bomb.

Tough shit. I gave a reason for it, and if I see any more ridiculous claims or idiotic quips I'll give you another one. If you don't want smites, don't say silly things like

Quote
Say I don't change the oil in my car.  Have I not cursed myself to have engine failure?

 :?

Your brain must be the size of a pea. Will somebody please help get this jerk off my back.  We were trying to understand the meaning of a curse.  GB asked to leave out deities and what not.  I guess it depends on what you consider a curse.  That is why it was proposed as a question and not a fact and if your brain was larger than a pea you would know that.  You put no thought into your response.  The post was meant to start a conversation about what we all thought a curse to be.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: HAL on May 23, 2013, 07:38:09 AM
We were trying to understand the meaning of a curse.  GB asked to leave out deities and what not.  I guess it depends on what you consider a curse.  That is why it was proposed as a question and not a fact and if your brain was larger than a pea you would know that.  You put no thought into your response.  The post was meant to start a conversation about what we all thought a curse to be.

Bullshit.

I used the dictionary definition which apparently means nothing to you. I put enough into my response TO LOOK UP THE DEFINITION. Yea, I guess that's a waste of time with delusional theists, as we've seen in your last debate.

Oh, and the thing about smites is, I don't care about mine. You clearly do. That gives me a tremendous built-in advantage in this area over members such as yourself.   :)
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: magicmiles on May 23, 2013, 07:45:42 AM
Is there anything you can do about the unworthy smite from Hal? How do you protest a smite?  I bet I've given  everyone on page 1 a thumbs up this morning and then Hal had to go and drop the smite bomb.

Tough shit. I gave a reason for it, and if I see any more ridiculous claims or idiotic quips I'll give you another one. If you don't want smites, don't say silly things like

Quote
Say I don't change the oil in my car.  Have I not cursed myself to have engine failure?

 :?

It wasn't such a silly thing to say. Sure, it doesn't match a literal definition of curse, but like JB said, language has room for more than literal meaning. In this instance, by not adding oil to her engine she might be said to be 'asking for trouble'. No-body would be confused as to the meaning, even though no literal request for trouble was made.



Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Anfauglir on May 23, 2013, 07:47:18 AM
Say I don't change the oil in my car.  Have I not cursed myself to have engine failure?

Regarding this.....if you really want to stretch the definition, then I suppose that yes you have - but to do so removes all meaning from the word, because all you are then saying is that EVERYTHING bad that happens as a direct consequence of your actions is a Curse.

You may as well say that if you drop your cake on the floor, you are cursed to not have that cake.  Technically true, if you push the word to its limits, but the problem then becomes how you distinguish between something that will happen by process of natural laws (no oil = damaged engine, climate patterns= environment), and something that may or may not happen as the result of intelligent decision making based on actions - your question about whether slave trading is being punished by tornados sent by some power who has judged the US for it.

Bottom line: if dropping your cake is described as a curse, what word do you use for the witchdoctor who takes payment to cause sickness in a specific person?
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 23, 2013, 07:47:34 AM

So do you think that America is cursed?


What, exactly and in the sense you use it, is a curse?
How do curses work? (The answer must not contain reference to magic or other supernatural causes.)
Who is able to curse things and what powers do they have to do this?

Simpleton answers like, "A curse is something you say and it happens." will score 0 marks, we want to know the physical mechanism relating the words to the event.

Waiting patiently for jb to define and clarify her terms....

I am sorry you had to wait Jag.  When I use the word "curse" I suppose I mean a vindicatory action imposed on you from another.  You know that term they'll get what's coming to them.  That sort of thing.  I had this friend, I was really good to.  She betrayed me.  A week later she hit a curb and busted 2 brand new tires.  Was it karmatic or coincidence.  I would like to think it was karma, but I don't know.  I think it's an interesting conversation to have.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: neopagan on May 23, 2013, 07:48:38 AM
Sorry, jb, I cannot follow your commentary.  Your original post stated you thought America was cursed and tied that somehow to native American treatment.

Are you now saying your post was to start a discussion about what a curse might be?  If so, a dictionary definition of curse would be a logical starting point.

I would suggest starting a new thread to the tune of "what is a curse" if that is now your intention, since you clearly labeled this one "is america cursed."
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Anfauglir on May 23, 2013, 07:51:03 AM
When I use the word "curse" I suppose I mean a vindicatory action imposed on you from another. 

And so - by the definition you are using - if you don't change the oil in your car, you have NOT cursed yourself to have engine failure, surely?

And I think you meant "vindictive", not "vindicatory".  The first means "harming by malicious intent", the second means "being proved to be right".
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: magicmiles on May 23, 2013, 07:52:43 AM
Say I don't change the oil in my car.  Have I not cursed myself to have engine failure?

Regarding this.....if you really want to stretch the definition, then I suppose that yes you have - but to do so removes all meaning from the word, because all you are then saying is that EVERYTHING bad that happens as a direct consequence of your actions is a Curse.


Not quite. I think the word can retain some validity, provided there is an element of deliberate neglect in the action (I assumed with the engine oil example it was a deliberate decision to not change the oil, not mere inadvertence)
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Anfauglir on May 23, 2013, 07:58:09 AM
Regarding this.....if you really want to stretch the definition, then I suppose that yes you have - but to do so removes all meaning from the word, because all you are then saying is that EVERYTHING bad that happens as a direct consequence of your actions is a Curse.

Not quite. I think the word can retain some validity, provided there is an element of deliberate neglect in the action (I assumed with the engine oil example it was a deliberate decision to not change the oil, not mere inadvertence)

Not sure I'm entirely with you on this one - I suppose that yes, you COULD count that as a curse, but then (IMO) you leave yourself no wiggle room for a "real" curse.  I quite agree that 'asking for trouble' would be a more suitable way of phrasing things.

It's like.....have you noticed that government departments seem to like referring to people as "customers" now?  To me, a "customer" is someone who chooses to make a decision as to where to take their custom.  With the tax authorities, you don't have that choice.  So when you call those people "customers", where does that leave the word for those people who choose Walmart over 7-11? 
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: magicmiles on May 23, 2013, 08:07:32 AM
^^ To me it shows that the meaning of some words evolve over time, and that we have the power to imbue words with meaning that can be recognisable outside strict dictionary or historical definitions.

Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 23, 2013, 08:13:31 AM
When I use the word "curse" I suppose I mean a vindicatory action imposed on you from another. 

And so - by the definition you are using - if you don't change the oil in your car, you have NOT cursed yourself to have engine failure, surely?

And I think you meant "vindictive", not "vindicatory".  The first means "harming by malicious intent", the second means "being proved to be right".

Well I can thank google for that 1.  I had initially wrote vindicative action and as you can see when you quote it's underlined.  I used the word it gave me.  I see you guys misspell all the time.  If I understand what you mean I just overlook it.  I am glad you pointed that one out as they have 2 distinctly different meanings.  I was using definition #1.

If I ask you do you think something is cursed the definition of the word then lies with the definition of the answerer.  When I ask the question I am referring to the wiki def. which involves deities, witchcraft, and voodoo.  GB proposed a def. w/o such entities.  So arose the "question" of the oil in my car.  I suppose a better example would be if I screwed my best friends girl and she then removed the oil plug on my car, is that a curse or bad karma?

So no I did not title the thread wrong.  I want to know if evangelical Christians here believe we are cursed by God.  I was interested in what atheist thought on the subject as well.  Specifically what ahteist thought about evangelical Christians believing God was cursing America.  I read on a website this morning when I looked up Fred Phelps that he believes the tornado was a curse because of the gay BB player.  I would say those people had nothing to do with that BB player being gay.

They are not responding, you all must've run them all off. lol  :laugh:
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: naemhni on May 23, 2013, 08:18:18 AM
^^ To me it shows that the meaning of some words evolve over time

Indeed they do.

When I was a kid, being computer literate was considered something to sneer at, and anyone who was a computer enthusiast was commonly referred to as a "geek", which back then was considered a pretty serious slur.  Today, the derogatory implications of the word geek are all but forgotten, to the point where there are technical support companies who use the term in the names of their companies.  For a long time, I fought this, trying to get people to stop tossing the word "geek" around so casually and remind them that it was originally a pretty serious insult, but I finally gave up the battle as lost.

Another more obvious example, but going in the other direction, is "nigger", which used to be just another slang term for black people.  Around the 1970s or so, it started to become considered somewhat derogatory, but not seriously so -- for example, it was still sometimes used in TV shows by characters who were generally portrayed as uncivilized in some way or another.  Today, the word is considered a very serious slur, to the point where (for example), on those rare occasions where it's used in a television show at all, the show will typically start with a warning saying that the show you're about to watch contains offensive racial language.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 23, 2013, 08:19:27 AM
Sorry, jb, I cannot follow your commentary.  Your original post stated you thought America was cursed and tied that somehow to native American treatment.

Are you now saying your post was to start a discussion about what a curse might be?  If so, a dictionary definition of curse would be a logical starting point.

I would suggest starting a new thread to the tune of "what is a curse" if that is now your intention, since you clearly labeled this one "is america cursed."

I think it was inevitable.  To properly answer the question do we not need a universal definition?

Dang GB see what you started. :o  No worries we'll get thru it. ;)
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Anfauglir on May 23, 2013, 08:24:45 AM
^^ To me it shows that the meaning of some words evolve over time, and that we have the power to imbue words with meaning that can be recognisable outside strict dictionary or historical definitions.

True enough - I'm generally a fan of words mutating over time.  Like I said though - when you expand the meaning of a word that previously just meant "A" to now cover "A and B", what word do you use when you ONLY want to describe "A"?

To try to pull it back to this thread.....it certainly appears that Junebug was using the "just A" form of the word "curse" when she began this thread.  She mentioned "superstitions", and made clear that she really wanted responses from theists rather than boring old "cause and effect" atheists.   ;D  She suggested that maybe the tornados were happening because of early-settlers treatment of native Americans, and 1800s treatment of slaves.

So I certainly took the view that she meant the "A Only" meaning of curse.....so I can understand (and hope you can understand too) the frustration and confusion when a couple pages in, Junebug suddenly asked "Say I don't change the oil in my car.  Have I not cursed myself to have engine failure?" which appeared to suddenly shift the terms of "curse" to a very rational cause-and-effect "B only" definition.  Particularly when she then made clear that what she meant by "curse" was "a vindicatory action imposed on you from another."

(Actually, even there it's not clear what she meant.  I took it to be a mis-stating of "vindictive", but possibly she actually meant "vindicatory", in the sense that "the effects that they experienced were a vindication of their action".....it doesn't QUITE make sense, but maybe that is what she meant - I don't know.

In a discussion where we are already talking about such vague concepts as are described by common nouns, that can mean slightly different things to different people, it would be preferable if the usage remained static.

Words evolving over time, I can deal with.  Words changing over the course of a 3-page thread.....that's something else!   ;D
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 23, 2013, 08:31:34 AM
^^ To me it shows that the meaning of some words evolve over time, and that we have the power to imbue words with meaning that can be recognisable outside strict dictionary or historical definitions.

True enough - I'm generally a fan of words mutating over time.  Like I said though - when you expand the meaning of a word that previously just meant "A" to now cover "A and B", what word do you use when you ONLY want to describe "A"?

To try to pull it back to this thread.....it certainly appears that Junebug was using the "just A" form of the word "curse" when she began this thread.  She mentioned "superstitions", and made clear that she really wanted responses from theists rather than boring old "cause and effect" atheists.   ;D  She suggested that maybe the tornados were happening because of early-settlers treatment of native Americans, and 1800s treatment of slaves.

So I certainly took the view that she meant the "A Only" meaning of curse.....so I can understand (and hope you can understand too) the frustration and confusion when a couple pages in, Junebug suddenly asked "Say I don't change the oil in my car.  Have I not cursed myself to have engine failure?" which appeared to suddenly shift the terms of "curse" to a very rational cause-and-effect "B only" definition.  Particularly when she then made clear that what she meant by "curse" was "a vindicatory action imposed on you from another."

(Actually, even there it's not clear what she meant.  I took it to be a mis-stating of "vindictive", but possibly she actually meant "vindicatory", in the sense that "the effects that they experienced were a vindication of their action".....it doesn't QUITE make sense, but maybe that is what she meant - I don't know.

In a discussion where we are already talking about such vague concepts as are described by common nouns, that can mean slightly different things to different people, it would be preferable if the usage remained static.

Words evolving over time, I can deal with.  Words changing over the course of a 3-page thread.....that's something else!   ;D

A, will you pretty, pretty please, refer to GB's reply #8.  That's why it got twisted.  It's not because I changed my mind about the original def. of the word.  I was asked to look beyond that definition and I did.  I've been smited and all this for simply doing what GB asked me to do.  It's time to stop it already, don't you think?
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Anfauglir on May 23, 2013, 08:44:14 AM
A, will you pretty, pretty please, refer to GB's reply #8.  That's why it got twisted.  It's not because I changed my mind about the original def. of the word.  I was asked to look beyond that definition and I did.  I've been smited and all this for simply doing what GB asked me to do.  It's time to stop it already, don't you think?

I did indeed look at GB's request.  But I also looked carefully at the post where you first talked about your car - I quote it in full below.

No more cursed than people who live in New Orleans who have to deal with frequent hurricanes, or people who live in California who have to deal with frequent earthquakes, or people who live in India who have to deal with monsoons, or people in Japan who have to deal with typhoons...the list goes on and on.

Please don't mistake weather and geological processes for something that's trying to punish human beings.

That's easier for you.  You do not believe in God.  I am not though.  Say I don't change the oil in my car.  Have I not cursed myself to have engine failure?

Trivially, you were responding here to Jaime, not Greybeard, so I could perhaps see how people might miss the point.

But crucially, Jaime says that you should NOT mistake mechanical processes for processes instigated by choice as a judgement.

Your response seems to say that you find it hard to make that distinction.  "That's easier for you......I am not though. "  The implication - and the way Hal clearly read it, and the way I read it - is that you are saying that you not putting oil in your car and the engine dying is NOT the mechanical process that GB was asking about, but that you were genuinely suggesting that perhaps your car not working happened because some force was judging you on your failure to put oil in, and causing it to fail as a punishment.

So I can quite see while Hal reacted as he did.

It might help it - to clarify for everyone - you state whether you think your car's failure was the mechanical result of a failure to act, or was a direceted judgement on you for your failure.  If we can clear that up, then I'm sure we WILL be able to move on.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Jag on May 23, 2013, 08:53:22 AM

So do you think that America is cursed?


What, exactly and in the sense you use it, is a curse?
How do curses work? (The answer must not contain reference to magic or other supernatural causes.)
Who is able to curse things and what powers do they have to do this?

Simpleton answers like, "A curse is something you say and it happens." will score 0 marks, we want to know the physical mechanism relating the words to the event.

Waiting patiently for jb to define and clarify her terms....

I am sorry you had to wait Jag.  When I use the word "curse" I suppose I mean a vindicatory action imposed on you from another.  You know that term they'll get what's coming to them.  That sort of thing.  I had this friend, I was really good to.  She betrayed me.  A week later she hit a curb and busted 2 brand new tires.  Was it karmatic or coincidence.  I would like to think it was karma, but I don't know.  I think it's an interesting conversation to have.

I'm willing to keep trying if you are willing to continue clarifying your terms when asked to do so. I'm not ready to give up on you jb; if you can stay calm, I can stay nice, even by your definition  ;)
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 23, 2013, 08:58:42 AM
^^ To me it shows that the meaning of some words evolve over time, and that we have the power to imbue words with meaning that can be recognisable outside strict dictionary or historical definitions.

True enough - I'm generally a fan of words mutating over time.  Like I said though - when you expand the meaning of a word that previously just meant "A" to now cover "A and B", what word do you use when you ONLY want to describe "A"?

To try to pull it back to this thread.....it certainly appears that Junebug was using the "just A" form of the word "curse" when she began this thread.  She mentioned "superstitions", and made clear that she really wanted responses from theists rather than boring old "cause and effect" atheists.   ;D  She suggested that maybe the tornados were happening because of early-settlers treatment of native Americans, and 1800s treatment of slaves.

So I certainly took the view that she meant the "A Only" meaning of curse.....so I can understand (and hope you can understand too) the frustration and confusion when a couple pages in, Junebug suddenly asked "Say I don't change the oil in my car.  Have I not cursed myself to have engine failure?" which appeared to suddenly shift the terms of "curse" to a very rational cause-and-effect "B only" definition.  Particularly when she then made clear that what she meant by "curse" was "a vindicatory action imposed on you from another."

(Actually, even there it's not clear what she meant.  I took it to be a mis-stating of "vindictive", but possibly she actually meant "vindicatory", in the sense that "the effects that they experienced were a vindication of their action".....it doesn't QUITE make sense, but maybe that is what she meant - I don't know.

In a discussion where we are already talking about such vague concepts as are described by common nouns, that can mean slightly different things to different people, it would be preferable if the usage remained static.

Words evolving over time, I can deal with.  Words changing over the course of a 3-page thread.....that's something else!   ;D

A, will you pretty, pretty please, refer to GB's reply #8.  That's why it got twisted.  It's not because I changed my mind about the original def. of the word.  I was asked to look beyond that definition and I did.  I've been smited and all this for simply doing what GB asked me to do.  It's time to stop it already, don't you think?

I mean why did  Jag #11 even ask me to specify my terms if it were not up for interpretation?

Anfauglir,

The recent tornado analysis I received was just an example of many American tragedies.  I used Native Americans and Africans losses as examples of actions that might be cursed.  It's really a more appropriate question for someone that actually believes America to be cursed?  Although most of the evangelicals I know would say it's because of fornication, abortion and homosexuality. So no that is not my contention. reply #3

I would hope the curse would stop.  I doubt my best friend would cease to be angry if I was sorry, there isn't much you can do to make amends for a betrayal like that. #39

I posted the question because of all the evangelicals I know that claim events like this are curses from God.#36

Answers to your previous questions.  I got sidetracked by the Hal drama, sorry.  If I missed 1 I'm sure you'll let me know.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 23, 2013, 09:05:19 AM
A, will you pretty, pretty please, refer to GB's reply #8.  That's why it got twisted.  It's not because I changed my mind about the original def. of the word.  I was asked to look beyond that definition and I did.  I've been smited and all this for simply doing what GB asked me to do.  It's time to stop it already, don't you think?

I did indeed look at GB's request.  But I also looked carefully at the post where you first talked about your car - I quote it in full below.

No more cursed than people who live in New Orleans who have to deal with frequent hurricanes, or people who live in California who have to deal with frequent earthquakes, or people who live in India who have to deal with monsoons, or people in Japan who have to deal with typhoons...the list goes on and on.

Please don't mistake weather and geological processes for something that's trying to punish human beings.

That's easier for you.  You do not believe in God.  I am not though.  Say I don't change the oil in my car.  Have I not cursed myself to have engine failure?

Trivially, you were responding here to Jaime, not Greybeard, so I could perhaps see how people might miss the point.

But crucially, Jaime says that you should NOT mistake mechanical processes for processes instigated by choice as a judgement.

Your response seems to say that you find it hard to make that distinction.  "That's easier for you......I am not though. "  The implication - and the way Hal clearly read it, and the way I read it - is that you are saying that you not putting oil in your car and the engine dying is NOT the mechanical process that GB was asking about, but that you were genuinely suggesting that perhaps your car not working happened because some force was judging you on your failure to put oil in, and causing it to fail as a punishment.

So I can quite see while Hal reacted as he did.

It might help it - to clarify for everyone - you state whether you think your car's failure was the mechanical result of a failure to act, or was a direceted judgement on you for your failure.  If we can clear that up, then I'm sure we WILL be able to move on.

"I am not though" is the answer to J's plead to not confuse geological processes for something that is punishing the world.  I can see why it got confusing but I didn't deserve the smite the way Hal give it.  Call me lazy for not appropriately writing my answer but not guilty of what I was accused of.  Anyway I'm over it. 

Did you notice the amended version of the bad example?
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Mrjason on May 23, 2013, 09:16:55 AM
Quick question Junebug,

Saudi Arabia has an abominable human rights record yet hasn't suffered any natural disasters for centuries. They are also "blessed" with the largest oil reserves in the world[1] making them one of the richest countries in the world[2]

Have the, muslim, Saudis got something right?
 1. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2244rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=2#sa (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2244rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=2#sa)
 2. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=3#sa (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=3#sa)
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on May 23, 2013, 09:19:41 AM
Quick question Junebug,

Saudi Arabia has an abominable human rights record yet hasn't suffered any natural disasters for centuries. They are also "blessed" with the largest oil reserves in the world[1] making them one of the richest countries in the world[2]

Have the, muslim, Saudis got something right?
 1. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2244rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=2#sa (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2244rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=2#sa)
 2. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=3#sa (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=3#sa)
Gee from a religious and human rights issue point of view I hope not
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Tonus on May 23, 2013, 09:19:55 AM
When I use the word "curse" I suppose I mean a vindicatory action imposed on you from another.  You know that term they'll get what's coming to them.  That sort of thing.  I had this friend, I was really good to.  She betrayed me.  A week later she hit a curb and busted 2 brand new tires.  Was it karmatic or coincidence.  I would like to think it was karma, but I don't know.  I think it's an interesting conversation to have.

Note the part in bold.  Who is the "other" you refer to?  In the example you give, where your friend suffered an accident shortly after betraying you, are you saying that you may have imposed vindictive action upon her?  Or that it was imposed upon her on your behalf?  If so, by what means?

Coincidence is just that, but karma assumes a supernatural agent of some sort.  A curse, by your definition, requires action from some external force or being that we cannot detect aside from the results.  And we would have to accept that it is a capricious and/or deliberate actor, since there are people who get away with doing harm to others and they may even profit from it.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 23, 2013, 09:23:37 AM

So do you think that America is cursed?


What, exactly and in the sense you use it, is a curse?
How do curses work? (The answer must not contain reference to magic or other supernatural causes.)
Who is able to curse things and what powers do they have to do this?

Simpleton answers like, "A curse is something you say and it happens." will score 0 marks, we want to know the physical mechanism relating the words to the event.

Waiting patiently for jb to define and clarify her terms....

I am sorry you had to wait Jag.  When I use the word "curse" I suppose I mean a vindicatory action imposed on you from another.  You know that term they'll get what's coming to them.  That sort of thing.  I had this friend, I was really good to.  She betrayed me.  A week later she hit a curb and busted 2 brand new tires.  Was it karmatic or coincidence.  I would like to think it was karma, but I don't know.  I think it's an interesting conversation to have.

I'm willing to keep trying if you are willing to continue clarifying your terms when asked to do so. I'm not ready to give up on you jb; if you can stay calm, I can stay nice, even by your definition  ;)

I'm calm.  See that's what I mean by learning from you.  I know def. to terms that I did not know before.  I have more insight into my own beliefs.  I have determined that I have been wrong about some things and that has been very enlightening.  It's too deep and complicated to go into details and that is for another thread anyway.  I have never been ornery on purpose.  I aim to please no matter who I'm dealing with.  The most important skill I am learning here is how to stay calm when under scrutiny.  A skill I have been very guilty of lacking before I read "The Four Agreements".

Good Luck I can't even do it sometimes!!! lol :laugh:
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 23, 2013, 09:25:10 AM
Quick question Junebug,

Saudi Arabia has an abominable human rights record yet hasn't suffered any natural disasters for centuries. They are also "blessed" with the largest oil reserves in the world[1] making them one of the richest countries in the world[2]

Have the, muslim, Saudis got something right?
 1. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2244rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=2#sa (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2244rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=2#sa)
 2. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=3#sa (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=3#sa)

I'm with 12Monkeys on that one.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Mrjason on May 23, 2013, 09:28:31 AM
Quick question Junebug,

Saudi Arabia has an abominable human rights record yet hasn't suffered any natural disasters for centuries. They are also "blessed" with the largest oil reserves in the world[1] making them one of the richest countries in the world[2]

Have the, muslim, Saudis got something right?
 1. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2244rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=2#sa (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2244rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=2#sa)
 2. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=3#sa (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=3#sa)

I'm with 12Monkeys on that one.

me too.

But it could be argued that it looks like they have been blessed though[3].
I'm asking this as I would assume that a blessing is the opposite of a curse and has the same, albeit opposite, requirements
 3. the men at any rate
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 23, 2013, 09:39:04 AM
When I use the word "curse" I suppose I mean a vindicatory action imposed on you from another.  You know that term they'll get what's coming to them.  That sort of thing.  I had this friend, I was really good to.  She betrayed me.  A week later she hit a curb and busted 2 brand new tires.  Was it karmatic or coincidence.  I would like to think it was karma, but I don't know.  I think it's an interesting conversation to have.

Note the part in bold.  Who is the "other" you refer to?  In the example you give, where your friend suffered an accident shortly after betraying you, are you saying that you may have imposed vindictive action upon her?  Or that it was imposed upon her on your behalf?  If so, by what means?

Coincidence is just that, but karma assumes a supernatural agent of some sort.  A curse, by your definition, requires action from some external force or being that we cannot detect aside from the results.  And we would have to accept that it is a capricious and/or deliberate actor, since there are people who get away with doing harm to others and they may even profit from it.

I'm not sure, that's why the ? at the end.  I myself thought at the time it was for me.  Now, not so much.  I do believe if you go around pissing a lot of people off they will do something to cause you harm.  It's not a curse, what do you call it?  I usually call it bad karma, but if karma doesn't exist what is it really called?  Revenge, it's called revenge when it is dished out by a human.  It is called a curse when dished out by a God or supernaturally.  I think I'm getting somewhere now.  Thanks tonus.  Great inspiration.

It's wiki's def. as well and I think everybody's here.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 23, 2013, 09:41:10 AM
Quick question Junebug,

Saudi Arabia has an abominable human rights record yet hasn't suffered any natural disasters for centuries. They are also "blessed" with the largest oil reserves in the world[1] making them one of the richest countries in the world[2]

Have the, muslim, Saudis got something right?
 1. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2244rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=2#sa (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2244rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=2#sa)
 2. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=3#sa (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=3#sa)

I'm with 12Monkeys on that one.

me too.

But it could be argued that it looks like they have been blessed though[3].
I'm asking this as I would assume that a blessing is the opposite of a curse and has the same, albeit opposite, requirements
 3. the men at any rate

Scary thought.

Gotta go transplant a hosta. You all have a GRRRRRREAT DAY!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Jag on May 23, 2013, 09:50:19 AM
Once again, I think I'm catching on.

jb, I'm going to restate your premise to see if I've figured out what you mean - please correct me if I get it wrong:

Is America experiencing a backlash of negative things because of the harm we have done to others throughout our countries history? Something of a karmic scale balancing act? What goes around, comes around?

Is that what you are saying, more or less?
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Tonus on May 23, 2013, 09:52:59 AM
I do believe if you go around pissing a lot of people off they will do something to cause you harm.  It's not a curse, what do you call it?

I would call that consequences, not a curse.  For example, if you smoke, you increase the odds that you will suffer one of several health problems, including severe ones like cancer.  If you got cancer, it is very likely that it was a consequence of your smoking.

The accident suffered by the friend who did you wrong was probably a consequence of one or more factors.  Perhaps another driver cut her off.  Perhaps she is a risky driver by nature and it caught up to her.  Perhaps she hit a slick spot that she didn't see.  Any of those could be a factor in her accident.  Her actions in regards to you might have been a factor if they were weighing on her conscience and she was more distracted than normal.  I could see where someone would call that karma, in that her actions against you may have led to her accident.  But outside of that, it wouldn't be a factor.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Astreja on May 23, 2013, 10:13:24 AM
I would call that consequences, not a curse.

This is how I see it as well.  Inasmuch as someone's own actions cause their downfall, I think that the word 'curse' only applies in a colloquial sense.  A claim of retaliation coming from a supernatural source actually muddies the picture, as many of the victims of major disasters (e.g. small children) simply could not have behaved so badly as to invite such a tragic fate upon themselves.  If this were a genuine form of divine justice at play here, I'd expect to see the karma targeting more people in and behind the halls of power and fewer schoolkids.

Unfortunately, due to instability in planetary climate and continued population growth, I fear that we're likely to see a corresponding increase in the number and severity of disasters worldwide. 
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: HAL on May 23, 2013, 10:44:22 AM
Per the definition -

Quote
curse  (kûrs)
n.
1.
a. An appeal or prayer for evil or misfortune to befall someone or something.
b. The evil or misfortune that comes in or as if in response to such an appeal: bewailed the curse of ill health.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/curse


Here's a curse in the sense of the meaning:

I HAL curse Junebug and her computer and I appeal to the forces of darkness, under the control of Satan, to cause Junebug's computer CPU to short out so she can't twist the meaning of words on this forum any more.

Now that's a curse.  8)
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Graybeard on May 23, 2013, 03:03:05 PM
We have to work really hard to make the earth a nice place to live.

(That is why it is so strange that creationists try to argue that the planet earth is the "perfect" made-by-god home for humans. )

It was. Now it isn't. That's what the bible shows.

Well it was for a few weeks, there was a slight glitch and after that, it's been same old, same old... I think it's time to just accept that this is the way man is, and leave it at that and move on. God's probably dying to try his hand out in some other universe but finds himself tied down answering prayers to find car-keys, cure a small headache, etc.

Quote
Of course, its pretty well placed in terms of its distance from the sun.

Yeah, that helps.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: 12 Monkeys on May 23, 2013, 09:57:35 PM
Quote
It was taken by force from native americans


Do natural disasters happen at a higher frequency in countries which have at one time has policies, or currently have policies to slaughter people and take their land? If so, Canada should have as many tornadoes.

I know this is going to sound crazy, but maybe such natural events have to do with climate and geography.

I don't think 12M was really suggesting otherwise. He just likes taking an opportunity to remind Americans that many of them live on land that's only available because of intervention by europeans.
Yes,thanks.....Aussies as well 8)
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: The Gawd on May 24, 2013, 01:06:44 AM
Still no explanation from JB on the cause of hurricanes on lifeless Jupiter.

Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Mrjason on May 24, 2013, 04:20:00 AM
Still no explanation from JB on the cause of hurricanes on lifeless Jupiter.

Or why god curses the US of A whilst allah blesses Saudi arabia
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Anfauglir on May 24, 2013, 04:30:25 AM
Still no explanation from JB on the cause of hurricanes on lifeless Jupiter.

Or why god curses the US of A whilst allah blesses Saudi arabia

Junebug doesn't DO direct answers to questions.

It might help it - to clarify for everyone - you state whether you think your car's failure was the mechanical result of a failure to act, or was a direceted judgement on you for your failure. 
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Ambassador Pony on May 24, 2013, 04:31:34 AM
I don't think 12M was really suggesting otherwise. He just likes taking an opportunity to remind Americans that many of them live on land that's only available because of intervention by europeans.
Yes,thanks.....Aussies as well 8)

The post was addressed to Junebug.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 24, 2013, 05:20:04 AM
Once again, I think I'm catching on.

jb, I'm going to restate your premise to see if I've figured out what you mean - please correct me if I get it wrong:

Is America experiencing a backlash of negative things because of the harm we have done to others throughout our countries history? Something of a karmic scale balancing act? What goes around, comes around?

Is that what you are saying, more or less?

Really Jag I just asked a question.  I wanted to know what evangelicals thought on the subject.  Go figure I'm not getting anybody but MM on this atheist website.  Just so you know, I've tried a couple of Christian forums and they don't let you say anything hardly.  Especially about their stand against gays.  So let's say this, for religious folks let's go with cursed and for you atheist let's go with your question.

I should let you write my OT you get my point across better than i do.  I have this 1 style of writing and it doesn't work well here.  I could have GB's attitude and accept it or I can try harder until I get it right.  I have been on my own with my beliefs for so long.  That's why it seems like a fantasy to you all, it kind of is.  I did not want my thoughts clouded by what other people thought.  See story telling is the only way I know to get my point across.  I don't do it to drive you crazy or anything.

Back on subject. I do want to know if any religious members thinks America is cursed. I don't think God is punishing America.  I do think America brings some things upon itself but not tornados, although it is possible that pollution/global warming is making them more intense.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Mrjason on May 24, 2013, 05:37:52 AM
Hi Junebug,

I'll answer your question.

No, America isn't cursed.
Are you so arrogant that you can think that god has singled out your nation for special treatment now, in your lifetime, for past transgressions?
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 24, 2013, 05:39:07 AM
Still no explanation from JB on the cause of hurricanes on lifeless Jupiter.

Or why god curses the US of A whilst allah blesses Saudi arabia

Junebug doesn't DO direct answers to questions.

It might help it - to clarify for everyone - you state whether you think your car's failure was the mechanical result of a failure to act, or was a direceted judgement on you for your failure. 

THAT IS NOT TRUE I HAVE ANSWERED MANY QUESTIONS DIRECTLY. I DO THE BEST I CAN.  SO SORRY I'M NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU A.

HOW ABOUT EVIDENCE.  TELL ME HOW MANY QUESTIONS HAVE BEEN ASKED AND HOW MANY HAVE BEEN ANSWERED.  IF IT'S MORE THAN 75% YOU ARE WRONG AND JUST BEING DIFFICULT.  IF YOU ARE RIGHT I'LL LEAVE THIS WEBSITE AND NEVER RETURN. I ANSWERED 5/6 FROM YOU YESTERDAY, I MISSED 1 THAT IS 83%. 

IT WAS A MECHANICAL RESULT IN THAT SCENARIO, REVENGE IN THE SECOND.

THE HURRICANES ON JUPITER IS A RESULT OF DISTANCE FROM THE SUN AND OTHER NATURAL CAUSES. 

YOU HAVE NO EMPATHY ANFAUGLIR.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 24, 2013, 05:42:01 AM
Hi Junebug,

I'll answer your question.

No, America isn't cursed.
Are you so arrogant that you can think that god has singled out your nation for special treatment now, in your lifetime, for past transgressions?

ARE YOU SO ARROGANT THAT YOU CAN'T READ?  I said I don't think America is cursed.  I even bolded it dummy.

In fact I asked the question of evangelicals/religious folks so we "together" could convince them they are wrong.

You idiot.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Mrjason on May 24, 2013, 05:43:34 AM
Hi Junebug,

I'll answer your question.

No, America isn't cursed.
Are you so arrogant that you can think that god has singled out your nation for special treatment now, in your lifetime, for past transgressions?

ARE YOU SO ARROGANT THAT YOU CAN'T READ?  I said I don't think America is cursed.  I even bolded it dummy.

In fact I asked the question of evangelicals/religious folks so we "together" could convince them they are wrong.

You idiot.

Ahem. *subject title* ahem

edit
Oh and this

Quote
I do think America brings some things upon itself
How? Its the fucking leprechauns again isn't it?
BAD leprechauns.

Quote
Back on subject. I do want to know if any religious members thinks America is cursed. I don't think God is punishing America
Are you retarded or do you just type without thinking?
Can you see the contradictions in those lines?
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 24, 2013, 05:58:51 AM
Per the definition -

Quote
curse  (kûrs)
n.
1.
a. An appeal or prayer for evil or misfortune to befall someone or something.
b. The evil or misfortune that comes in or as if in response to such an appeal: bewailed the curse of ill health.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/curse


Here's a curse in the sense of the meaning:

I HAL curse Junebug and her computer and I appeal to the forces of darkness, under the control of Satan, to cause Junebug's computer CPU to short out so she can't twist the meaning of words on this forum any more.

Now that's a curse.  8)

Quote
Graybeard
What, exactly and in the sense you use it, is a curse?
How do curses work? (The answer must not contain reference to magic or other supernatural causes.)
Who is able to curse things and what powers do they have to do this?

I did what I was asked to do.  It was in question form, not stated as fact.  I was asking you what you thought.  All you had to say was no that's not a curse and support your claim.  You could have left out the DRAMA!!!

I shrug you off as a believer hater, even though my belief does not hurt you or anyone else.  Your judgement is clouded by hate.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 24, 2013, 06:06:12 AM
Hi Junebug,

I'll answer your question.

No, America isn't cursed.
Are you so arrogant that you can think that god has singled out your nation for special treatment now, in your lifetime, for past transgressions?

ARE YOU SO ARROGANT THAT YOU CAN'T READ?  I said I don't think America is cursed.  I even bolded it dummy.

In fact I asked the question of evangelicals/religious folks so we "together" could convince them they are wrong.

You idiot.

Ahem. *subject title* ahem

edit
Oh and this

Quote
I do think America brings some things upon itself
How? Its the fucking leprechauns again isn't it?
BAD leprechauns.

Quote
Back on subject. I do want to know if any religious members thinks America is cursed. I don't think God is punishing America
Are you retarded or do you just type without thinking?
Can you see the contradictions in those lines?

Did you see the ?.  Did you read it?  Leprechauns, really?  How did you come up with that?  If I'm a retard then you are less than retarded you are braindead.  Smoke too much crack or something?  Did your mom drop you on your head?

I see no contradiction. 
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Mrjason on May 24, 2013, 06:08:07 AM
If I'm a retard then you are less than retarded you are braindead.  Smoke too much crack or something?  Did your mom drop you on your head?
 

And you're the one who thinks we hate you?
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 24, 2013, 06:16:17 AM
If I'm a retard then you are less than retarded you are braindead.  Smoke too much crack or something?  Did your mom drop you on your head?
 

And you're the one who thinks we hate you?

After all the insults I give back some.  I am not hating anybody, I'm taking up for myself.  You want a battle of wits, let's go!!!  I will match you insult for insult.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Mrjason on May 24, 2013, 06:21:10 AM
If I'm a retard then you are less than retarded you are braindead.  Smoke too much crack or something?  Did your mom drop you on your head?
 

And you're the one who thinks we hate you?

After all the insults I give back some.  I am not hating anybody, I'm taking up for myself.  You want a battle of wits, let's go!!!  I will match you insult for insult.

What insults I asked a question?

What have insults got to do with wits? Surely resorting to insults is a display of a lack of wits.

Ok back on subject.[1]

You think that America has somehow brought natural disasters upon itsself as a result of some karmic intervention? Is this correct?

 1. NB the original subject title is "Is America cursed"
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: The Gawd on May 24, 2013, 06:27:04 AM
<snip>
THE HURRICANES ON JUPITER IS A RESULT OF DISTANCE FROM THE SUN AND OTHER NATURAL CAUSES. 
<snip>

Okay, so you are aware that natural disasters have natural causes. Why would you even begin to suggest that natural disasters have magical causes then?
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 24, 2013, 06:37:35 AM
I do believe if you go around pissing a lot of people off they will do something to cause you harm.  It's not a curse, what do you call it?

I would call that consequences, not a curse.  For example, if you smoke, you increase the odds that you will suffer one of several health problems, including severe ones like cancer.  If you got cancer, it is very likely that it was a consequence of your smoking.

The accident suffered by the friend who did you wrong was probably a consequence of one or more factors.  Perhaps another driver cut her off.  Perhaps she is a risky driver by nature and it caught up to her.  Perhaps she hit a slick spot that she didn't see.  Any of those could be a factor in her accident.  Her actions in regards to you might have been a factor if they were weighing on her conscience and she was more distracted than normal.  I could see where someone would call that karma, in that her actions against you may have led to her accident.  But outside of that, it wouldn't be a factor.

Are you referring to ex. 1 or 2. For 2, I definitely define that one as revenge for screwing my best friend's girl.  Consequence fits the first scenario where I neglected my car but could be applied to 2 as well.

Yes that girl drove too fast.   Thanks for your input Tonus.  I shouldn't have been thinking out loud. lol
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 24, 2013, 06:54:08 AM
I would call that consequences, not a curse.

This is how I see it as well.  Inasmuch as someone's own actions cause their downfall, I think that the word 'curse' only applies in a colloquial sense.  A claim of retaliation coming from a supernatural source actually muddies the picture, as many of the victims of major disasters (e.g. small children) simply could not have behaved so badly as to invite such a tragic fate upon themselves.  If this were a genuine form of divine justice at play here, I'd expect to see the karma targeting more people in and behind the halls of power and fewer schoolkids.

Unfortunately, due to instability in planetary climate and continued population growth, I fear that we're likely to see a corresponding increase in the number and severity of disasters worldwide.

I was hoping you'd chime in there Astreja.  I share your fears! 

When my son was a child when he got punished I would always make sure he understood why.  I would think God would punish in a similar way or it's cruelty not punishment.  I try to stay away from thinking that God is cruel and that punishments are reserved for after death and are fair.  I believe we are judged as individuals not large groups. 

Funny: I'm sitting here in the quiet alone.  It is very windy here this morn and it blew my front door open slowly, creaking.  After that curse from Hal it kind of sent shivers up my spine.  boooooooooo :laugh:

I want to apologize to the rest of you for the DRAMA.  I am so sorry you had to witness that.   I usually try turning the other cheek but fuck that.  There comes a time when you have to take up for yourself.  I don't hate anybody and I will forgive them as soon as they stop.  They don't even have to apologize, just stop.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: The Gawd on May 24, 2013, 06:59:10 AM
JB, of course you think your god would punish in a similar way as you... thats why its called SPAG. duh.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 24, 2013, 07:02:30 AM
If I'm a retard then you are less than retarded you are braindead.  Smoke too much crack or something?  Did your mom drop you on your head?
 

And you're the one who thinks we hate you?

After all the insults I give back some.  I am not hating anybody, I'm taking up for myself.  You want a battle of wits, let's go!!!  I will match you insult for insult.

What insults I asked a question?

What have insults got to do with wits? Surely resorting to insults is a display of a lack of wits.

Ok back on subject.[1]

You think that America has somehow brought natural disasters upon itsself as a result of some karmic intervention? Is this correct?
 1. NB the original subject title is "Is America cursed"

You called me arrogant on a point that I don't even have.  Idiot!!!

NO<NO<NO you are not correct that's why I keep saying ID-I-OT!!!  You can't see past the nose on your face.

Okay look I'm sorry for being mean.  I'm trying to understand that you are misunderstanding.  That's all this is.  You totally misunderstand me.  Again so sorry for being mean.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 24, 2013, 07:04:55 AM
JB, of course you think your god would punish in a similar way as you... thats why its called SPAG. duh.

Sure enough Gawd, sure enough. I don't call it SPAG though that's what you atheist call it, understandably so.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 24, 2013, 07:16:16 AM
I want to make something very clear.  I do not believe America is cursed.  My intentions was to attract evangelicals to answer the question.  It is something they believe I DISAGREE with.  I thought that together we might do some good.  It definitely hasn't turned out the way I planned and those things happen.  My own fault for not being more like yal.  I am a work in progress. ;)

I do believe the country suffers consequences for it's actions.  I don't think it's tornados except to say it is possible we are making them more intense with global warming.  I sincerely hope this clarifies my intentions and my view on the curse question.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Mrjason on May 24, 2013, 07:22:34 AM
ok.

You think that America is suffering natural consequences for abusing the environment?
Yes?

I'm not sure about that. I think that global warming is something that occurs anyway.

here is an interesting article about that http://www.drroyspencer.com/global-warming-natural-or-manmade/ (http://www.drroyspencer.com/global-warming-natural-or-manmade/)

the rest of the website has a lot to say on the subject too
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: The Gawd on May 24, 2013, 07:42:57 AM
JB, of course you think your god would punish in a similar way as you... thats why its called SPAG. duh.

Sure enough Gawd, sure enough. I don't call it SPAG though that's what you atheist call it, understandably so.
Its less a name and more a description... one that you and your version of god fit perfectly. One that Fred Phelps and his version of god fit perfectly as well. It becomes clear that there is no god just the concepts that each individual makes up him or herself. Of course those concepts answer nothing and are wastes of time when we could be finding answers to actual problems and not promoting our SPAGs... forcing others to waste time battling against these SPAGs causing harm in our communities.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Anfauglir on May 24, 2013, 08:21:51 AM
Quote from: Anfauglir
Junebug doesn't DO direct answers to questions.

It might help it - to clarify for everyone - you state whether you think your car's failure was the mechanical result of a failure to act, or was a direceted judgement on you for your failure. 

THAT IS NOT TRUE I HAVE ANSWERED MANY QUESTIONS DIRECTLY. I DO THE BEST I CAN.  SO SORRY I'M NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU A.

HOW ABOUT EVIDENCE.  TELL ME HOW MANY QUESTIONS HAVE BEEN ASKED AND HOW MANY HAVE BEEN ANSWERED.  IF IT'S MORE THAN 75% YOU ARE WRONG AND JUST BEING DIFFICULT.  IF YOU ARE RIGHT I'LL LEAVE THIS WEBSITE AND NEVER RETURN. I ANSWERED 5/6 FROM YOU YESTERDAY, I MISSED 1 THAT IS 83%. 

YOU HAVE NO EMPATHY ANFAUGLIR.

Tell me why I should have empathy for someone that I believe deliberately ignores questions that they fear would shake their faith?  Well, empathy perhaps, if you mean "feel sorry for", but certainly not respect. 

If I honestly felt that you were doing your utmost to answers questions raised; to clairfy and be as clear and specific as possible; to take on board what other people are telling you and honestly consider it.....then, I might have empathy.  But sadly, I don't.

Here's a question that you never answered: What is your criteria for evidence?  VERY relevant here, since you are asking for specific numerical evidence to be gathered to support your position.  Can't you just accept that  "I have a feeling you don't answer questions" and leave me alone?

But fair enough - you ask for evidence, here we go: questions (just of mine) that you have not answered in this thread.  I reckon that there are at least 8 questions here that you have not answered.  The crucial one (for me) I have put in bold.

So your contention is that there were no (or significantly fewer) tornados in the US before around the 1600s?

First off, is your preferred explanation for central-US's level of tornados still "a curse", or are you now leaning more towards "natural result of terrain and climate in that area?"

And the second question.....how much research did you do on tornados et al before asking here "is America cursed"?  I know you did some, because you quote the difference between tornados in Canada and the US.  What I am interested in is whether you got that far, and thought "maybe America is cursed", or whether you read further first to discover what we know about how tornados form?

Do you feel there is a critical number of haters for a curse to take effect, or is there a sliding scale? 

Is it purely a "quantity" thing, or does it vary depending on the scale of the hate - i.e. does one person seriously hating you cause the same level of curse to fall on you as ten people vaguely disliking you?  (Not implying those are actual numbers, but you see what I mean).

if weather comes from pollution, then cease pollution and you cease the weather.  But if we're talking some kind of karmic effect from people hating you, then would the curse effect cease immediately?  What if the person still hates you even AFTER you've said sorry?  Do you believe the curse would stop, or keep going?

That's a lot of questions I can't trace the answers to, Junebug.  I reckon well over half of the questions I've asked you have not answered.  And that's just in this thread, never mind "what is your criteria for evidence" from the debate - would you like me to search other threads as well?  Remember "why should I follow any of your links, when the one piece of yours I DID read was dishonest and manipulative"?  Remember "did you read the anstract it referenced?  Did you read the actual study?  Or did you just think 'this fits my opinion, I will just post it and never mind if it is honest or not'"?

No answers to any of them.....CRUCIAL questions if you want my sympathy and respect.

TELL ME HOW MANY QUESTIONS HAVE BEEN ASKED AND HOW MANY HAVE BEEN ANSWERED.  IF IT'S MORE THAN 75% YOU ARE WRONG AND JUST BEING DIFFICULT.  IF YOU ARE RIGHT I'LL LEAVE THIS WEBSITE AND NEVER RETURN.

Hmmm.

You likely won't believe it, but (hopefully) long-term members will back me up that it is extremely rare for me to have so many problems with another poster.  I engaged happily with posters like Fran, and Afadly, when others had already given up on them.  I was able to debate with joebowers, and accept he had some good points even though he was generally considered a jerk and (in other threads) I had been vigorously opposing his position. 

You don't know who they are, I suspect.  But point being, its truly very, very rare that I find myself with so little respect for another poster on this forum.  Most people get a whoooole lot of tolerance and respect from me, for quite considerable lengths of time.  But - as you note - I very quickly got to a stage with you where I had lost all respect for you, based on the amount of questions that you had dodged.

Why do you think that is, if you are indeed the blameless "answer all questions" Junebug that you protest you are?
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 24, 2013, 08:29:36 AM
ok.

You think that America is suffering natural consequences for abusing the environment?
Yes?

I'm not sure about that. I think that global warming is something that occurs anyway.

here is an interesting article about that http://www.drroyspencer.com/global-warming-natural-or-manmade/ (http://www.drroyspencer.com/global-warming-natural-or-manmade/)

the rest of the website has a lot to say on the subject too

Yes I thought the article was suspicious.  So I checked the guy out.  Sure enough he works for government.  I wonder what he gets in return for his argument?  Maybe he's got money in fossil fuels?  The scientist I listen to have nothing to gain but their reputations as scientist and a cleaner unpolluted planet. Here's a link:

http://www.nrdc.org/health/extremeweather/

There is enough info. there to keep us busy a while.  Yes it seems like a reputable site to me. I'm going to check it out some more but so far I think they are "too legit to quit".
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Mrjason on May 24, 2013, 08:49:51 AM
Yes I thought the article was suspicious.  So I checked the guy out.  Sure enough he works for government.  I wonder what he gets in return for his argument?  Maybe he's got money in fossil fuels?  The scientist I listen to have nothing to gain but their reputations as scientist and a cleaner unpolluted planet. Here's a link:

http://www.nrdc.org/health/extremeweather/

There is enough info. there to keep us busy a while.  Yes it seems like a reputable site to me. I'm going to check it out some more but so far I think they are "too legit to quit".

Interesting.

this is getting a bit off topic though. Perhaps a new thread is needed for "is climate change man made"

In the mean time Anfauglir has a few questions for you on this thread
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Anfauglir on May 24, 2013, 09:05:47 AM
Yes I thought the article was suspicious.  So I checked the guy out.  Sure enough he works for government.

That's enough then.  He works for the government, therefore he is biased.  No need to read what he actually writes, we can stop right there.

But anyway.....NRDC.  Hang on!  Their Director, Daniel Lashof, "is involved in developing federal standards and legislation".  So - gasp - HE works for the government too!

Heck.  Both sides work for the government.  How the heck will I be able to work out which one is the lying scumbag?

Dagnabit.  I may have to look at the evidence they are putting forward, and dispassionately compare it and their sources and conclusions.  What a pain.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 24, 2013, 09:18:43 AM
Anfauglir,

I answered those questions and many others you've accused me of not answering.  Not answering to your satisfaction is not the same thing as not answering.  I even put the reply # beside the answer to protect myself from being accused of not answering but yet here I am.  You seem delusional from where I'm sitting.


Even after the last post. I can't believe you right now.  I guess I have rocked your world.  I make it hard for you to hate me and you hate me for that. 

Like getting beat up with feathers, right Jag?

Just too much there to repost.

Yes I thought the article was suspicious.  So I checked the guy out.  Sure enough he works for government.  I wonder what he gets in return for his argument?  Maybe he's got money in fossil fuels?  The scientist I listen to have nothing to gain but their reputations as scientist and a cleaner unpolluted planet. Here's a link:

http://www.nrdc.org/health/extremeweather/

There is enough info. there to keep us busy a while.  Yes it seems like a reputable site to me. I'm going to check it out some more but so far I think they are "too legit to quit".

Interesting.

this is getting a bit off topic though. Perhaps a new thread is needed for "is climate change man made"

In the mean time Anfauglir has a few questions for you on this thread

I've answered his questions.  It's time to move on.  Let it go.  I made sure I answered him before I said goodbye yesterday to avoid this nonsense and yet here I am. 

It's part of the conversation. It happens. I'm not complaining. 
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: HAL on May 24, 2013, 09:25:02 AM
I guess I have rocked your world.

LOL.  :D
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 24, 2013, 09:26:43 AM
Yes I thought the article was suspicious.  So I checked the guy out.  Sure enough he works for government.

That's enough then.  He works for the government, therefore he is biased.  No need to read what he actually writes, we can stop right there.

But anyway.....NRDC.  Hang on!  Their Director, Daniel Lashof, "is involved in developing federal standards and legislation".  So - gasp - HE works for the government too!

Heck.  Both sides work for the government.  How the heck will I be able to work out which one is the lying scumbag?

Dagnabit.  I may have to look at the evidence they are putting forward, and dispassionately compare it and their sources and conclusions.  What a pain.

I read his article before I read about him. The only reason I did it was to make you happy.  To show you that I can do such things.  You are relentless.

Yes Daniel Lashof is helping the gov. progress the other guy is helping them not to.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 24, 2013, 09:52:29 AM
I'll see if I can get this right. Here is the Climate Denier's position

There is no such thing as CO2
Carbon dioxide, if it exists, isn't rising
Even if CO2 is going up, it's not due to human activities, but under-sea volcanoes
The climate isn't changing, in fact it's getting cooler.
The climate is changing, but it's not anthropogenic, or due to CO2
The climate is changing, but if it's anthropogenic, there is no need to worry about it, because warmth is good, and CO2 is good for plants.
The climate is changing, and if it is going to change, then there is no need to panic, because (a) it's not that bad, and (b) economics will naturally adapt to it.
The climate is changing, but we don't have to do anything about it, because the cost of doing something is way more expensive than the cost of preventing it.
The climate is changing, and if it is destructive, then that's what God wants.

Here's how Roy got converted to creationism.
http://theevolutioncrisis.org.uk/testimony2.php
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Mrjason on May 24, 2013, 10:01:33 AM
I'll see if I can get this right. Here is the Climate Denier's position

There is no such thing as CO2
Carbon dioxide, if it exists, isn't rising
Even if CO2 is going up, it's not due to human activities, but under-sea volcanoes
The climate isn't changing, in fact it's getting cooler.
The climate is changing, but it's not anthropogenic, or due to CO2
The climate is changing, but if it's anthropogenic, there is no need to worry about it, because warmth is good, and CO2 is good for plants.
The climate is changing, and if it is going to change, then there is no need to panic, because (a) it's not that bad, and (b) economics will naturally adapt to it.
The climate is changing, but we don't have to do anything about it, because the cost of doing something is way more expensive than the cost of preventing it.
The climate is changing, and if it is destructive, then that's what God wants.

Here's how Roy got converted to creationism.
http://theevolutioncrisis.org.uk/testimony2.php

My view is that yes the climate is changing but it does that from time to time. See Ice ages, the hot times CO2 filled times[1]
Yes human activity is accelerating it but it isn't causing it.
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian)
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 24, 2013, 10:18:24 AM
My view is that yes the climate is changing but it does that from time to time. See Ice ages, the hot times CO2 filled times[1]
Yes human activity is accelerating it but it isn't causing it.
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian)

I wouldn't be quoting creationists to validate my belief, though.

Ice ages have happened in the past, due to continental drift. As continents move around, and mountains get uplifted, snow can get deposited on them, which changes the over-all albedo of the planet. Also, the Milankovitch cycle has been well and truly understood.

Did you come to your opinion by being a climate scientist, or is it some random well-considered opinion, based on what you want to be true, after reading some creationist blogs?
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Graybeard on May 24, 2013, 10:21:33 AM

this is getting a bit off topic though. Perhaps a new thread is needed for "is climate change man made"

^This. Topics do drift but Mrjason is correct. If the discussion on global warming is to continue, please let it be in another thread.

Thanks. GB Mod.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Anfauglir on May 25, 2013, 02:32:02 AM
I answered those questions and many others you've accused me of not answering.  Not answering to your satisfaction is not the same thing as not answering. 

But it IS the same thing Junebug, if what you are responding with does NOT address the points I am making.  Let's look at the most important questions you have yet to answer, and I will try to explain WHY they are so important for you to answer, rather than (again) to dodge or avoid.

And the second question.....how much research did you do on tornados et al before asking here "is America cursed"?  I know you did some, because you quote the difference between tornados in Canada and the US.  What I am interested in is whether you got that far, and thought "maybe America is cursed", or whether you read further first to discover what we know about how tornados form?

Do you feel there is a critical number of haters for a curse to take effect, or is there a sliding scale? 

Is it purely a "quantity" thing, or does it vary depending on the scale of the hate - i.e. does one person seriously hating you cause the same level of curse to fall on you as ten people vaguely disliking you?  (Not implying those are actual numbers, but you see what I mean).

if weather comes from pollution, then cease pollution and you cease the weather.  But if we're talking some kind of karmic effect from people hating you, then would the curse effect cease immediately?  What if the person still hates you even AFTER you've said sorry?  Do you believe the curse would stop, or keep going?


And that's just in this thread, never mind "what is your criteria for evidence" from the debate - would you like me to search other threads as well? 

Remember "why should I follow any of your links, when the one piece of yours I DID read was dishonest and manipulative"? 

Remember "did you read the abstract it referenced?  Did you read the actual study?  Or did you just think 'this fits my opinion, I will just post it and never mind if it is honest or not'"?

And one further - remember the "greed" thread where you said "make minimum wage $2000 a month (or whatever it was) and I asked a whole lot of questions about the knock-on effects of doing that?  You ditched THAT thread and didn't even attempt to answer.

So why do I feel that these questions are crucial - and why do I persist in asking them over and over as you persist in dodging them?

Because ALL of those questions deal with how much importance anyone should attach to the things you say.  You've got extremely strong opinions, Junebug, and that can be a good thing.  But it seems that an awful lot - possibly all - of those opinions come from reading or hearing a scrap of out-of-context or badly researched propaganda, and then building that up into a huge old opinion.  The opinion may be strong, but if its based on sand then it is worthless.

So I've been trying, and failing, to get you to answer the vital questions about HOW you arrive at your strong conclusions.

What your standards are for evidence.
How far you delve into a subject before solidifying your opinion.
Whether you consider all the ramifications of a position before you adopt it.
I think you are a good-hearted person, Junebug.  But I also think that you latch onto snippets of misinformation and build a passionate case around them that you then find impossible to shake, or even to WANT to shake. 

You make statements like "I thought the article was suspicious.  So I checked the guy out.  Sure enough he works for government."  just make me sad.  Because you have decided that "government is bad, m'kay?" you automatically dismiss the opinion of anyone who works for them without any examination of the evidence.  Maybe he is right, maybe he is wrong.  But to say "he works for this person, therefore must automatically be wrong"?  That's a blinkered and highly dangerous way of thinking.

So that's what it comes down to Junebug.  Sure - you answer the trivial questions.  But all the CRUCIAL questions, the hard ones, the ones that would force you to examine your position, the ones where the answers will determine whether we think "hmm, good point from Junebug" or "here goes Junebug with her latest load of woo"......those you dodge and run away from as fast as you can.  You don't "rock my world "Junebug, because so far everything you have said just slides right off - because you have given me no reason at all to even begin to consider anything you have said as worthy of consideration.  Each time I try to engage, to delve into your position to see if there is any substance I should be interested in, it all turns to vapour and you dodge and evade or plain old abandon the thread and move on to the next insubstantial claims.

I think I threaten you Junebug, because I call you on things that you would much rather not think about, and that's why you try to reflect it back on me.  Because that's MUCH easier than the critical self-examination I am asking you to do.

I fully suspect that you will - once again - ignore the whole thrust of this post. I expect that you will either ignore it, or that you will respond with some more "oh, you just don't get me".  I would be surprised, but delighted, if you even went so far as to say "I understand what you want, but I won't ever answer those questions".  And I would be over the moon - but absolutely gobsmacked - to see a response that acknowledges why those questions are so important when it comes to establishing your credibility, and then goes on to actually ANSWER them.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Nam on May 25, 2013, 04:57:23 AM
^hell, I didn't even read it all, why would you expect she would?

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 25, 2013, 05:29:36 AM
I answered those questions and many others you've accused me of not answering.  Not answering to your satisfaction is not the same thing as not answering. 

But it IS the same thing Junebug, if what you are responding with does NOT address the points I am making.  Let's look at the most important questions you have yet to answer, and I will try to explain WHY they are so important for you to answer, rather than (again) to dodge or avoid.

And the second question.....how much research did you do on tornados et al before asking here "is America cursed"?  I know you did some, because you quote the difference between tornados in Canada and the US.  What I am interested in is whether you got that far, and thought "maybe America is cursed", or whether you read further first to discover what we know about how tornados form?

Do you feel there is a critical number of haters for a curse to take effect, or is there a sliding scale? 

Is it purely a "quantity" thing, or does it vary depending on the scale of the hate - i.e. does one person seriously hating you cause the same level of curse to fall on you as ten people vaguely disliking you?  (Not implying those are actual numbers, but you see what I mean).

if weather comes from pollution, then cease pollution and you cease the weather.  But if we're talking some kind of karmic effect from people hating you, then would the curse effect cease immediately?  What if the person still hates you even AFTER you've said sorry?  Do you believe the curse would stop, or keep going?


And that's just in this thread, never mind "what is your criteria for evidence" from the debate - would you like me to search other threads as well? 

Remember "why should I follow any of your links, when the one piece of yours I DID read was dishonest and manipulative"? 

Remember "did you read the abstract it referenced?  Did you read the actual study?  Or did you just think 'this fits my opinion, I will just post it and never mind if it is honest or not'"?

And one further - remember the "greed" thread where you said "make minimum wage $2000 a month (or whatever it was) and I asked a whole lot of questions about the knock-on effects of doing that?  You ditched THAT thread and didn't even attempt to answer.

So why do I feel that these questions are crucial - and why do I persist in asking them over and over as you persist in dodging them?

Because ALL of those questions deal with how much importance anyone should attach to the things you say.  You've got extremely strong opinions, Junebug, and that can be a good thing.  But it seems that an awful lot - possibly all - of those opinions come from reading or hearing a scrap of out-of-context or badly researched propaganda, and then building that up into a huge old opinion.  The opinion may be strong, but if its based on sand then it is worthless.

So I've been trying, and failing, to get you to answer the vital questions about HOW you arrive at your strong conclusions.

What your standards are for evidence.
How far you delve into a subject before solidifying your opinion.
Whether you consider all the ramifications of a position before you adopt it.
I think you are a good-hearted person, Junebug.  But I also think that you latch onto snippets of misinformation and build a passionate case around them that you then find impossible to shake, or even to WANT to shake. 

You make statements like "I thought the article was suspicious.  So I checked the guy out.  Sure enough he works for government."  just make me sad.  Because you have decided that "government is bad, m'kay?" you automatically dismiss the opinion of anyone who works for them without any examination of the evidence.  Maybe he is right, maybe he is wrong.  But to say "he works for this person, therefore must automatically be wrong"?  That's a blinkered and highly dangerous way of thinking.

So that's what it comes down to Junebug.  Sure - you answer the trivial questions.  But all the CRUCIAL questions, the hard ones, the ones that would force you to examine your position, the ones where the answers will determine whether we think "hmm, good point from Junebug" or "here goes Junebug with her latest load of woo"......those you dodge and run away from as fast as you can.  You don't "rock my world "Junebug, because so far everything you have said just slides right off - because you have given me no reason at all to even begin to consider anything you have said as worthy of consideration.  Each time I try to engage, to delve into your position to see if there is any substance I should be interested in, it all turns to vapour and you dodge and evade or plain old abandon the thread and move on to the next insubstantial claims.

I think I threaten you Junebug, because I call you on things that you would much rather not think about, and that's why you try to reflect it back on me.  Because that's MUCH easier than the critical self-examination I am asking you to do.

I fully suspect that you will - once again - ignore the whole thrust of this post. I expect that you will either ignore it, or that you will respond with some more "oh, you just don't get me".  I would be surprised, but delighted, if you even went so far as to say "I understand what you want, but I won't ever answer those questions".  And I would be over the moon - but absolutely gobsmacked - to see a response that acknowledges why those questions are so important when it comes to establishing your credibility, and then goes on to actually ANSWER them.

Slander, pure slander.

I am constantly examining my own beliefs I don't need you asking me questions for that.  I think you are the 1 that needs self reflection, I treat people fine.  I am going no further with you until you take back your false accusation.  Why even try with you anymore.  I give up.  You are impossible.  I answered your questions, labeled the answer to the corresponding post.  If you have questions about those answers ask them but don't say I haven't answered you when I have.  It's wrong and unbecoming of you as a person.  I posted an article I found "interesting" and labeled it "just food for thought", you keep throwing that up to my face but will not acknowledge the "just food for thought" label. If you were more empathetic I wouldn't bother you so bad.  That's why you don't hurt me; I am empathetic to you. 

This is way more off topic than global warming.  It's just more of A's personal vendetta against me, a person that has never hurt him.  Half of this thread is ridiculously misunderstood.  You will not run me off.  I'm here to stay.

You say atheist are morally superior to Christians, I can't tell it by your actions.  You A, seem the same.  Welcome to A's hell.  He will make your life hell if you don't answer his questions to HIS liking.  It doesn't matter to him that it's not your strong skill and you are trying to learn how to better communicate here.  It doesn't matter to A if you were too busy getting molested to get a good education and you've done the best you can with the resources you've had.  Nope don't matter, he has no empathy and no respect for you if you don't know how to communicate here. 

So sad. :'(
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 25, 2013, 05:35:16 AM

this is getting a bit off topic though. Perhaps a new thread is needed for "is climate change man made"

^This. Topics do drift but Mrjason is correct. If the discussion on global warming is to continue, please let it be in another thread.

Thanks. GB Mod.


Part of the discussion is whether or not American actions cause some of the problems in the country.  Pollution is one of those actions so I just don't get it.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Nam on May 25, 2013, 07:15:18 PM
Dude, she applauded my "insult" to her. That's hilarious. So dense.

-Nam
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Anfauglir on May 26, 2013, 01:10:11 PM
I fully suspect that you will - once again - ignore the whole thrust of this post. I expect that you will either ignore it, or that you will respond with some more "oh, you just don't get me".  I would be surprised, but delighted, if you even went so far as to say "I understand what you want, but I won't ever answer those questions".  And I would be over the moon - but absolutely gobsmacked - to see a response that acknowledges why those questions are so important when it comes to establishing your credibility, and then goes on to actually ANSWER them.

<<blah de blah de blah>>


Well, as I suspected, not even the slightest attempt to address the point I was making.  So I'm left with only two options.

Either you are simply unable to grasp what I am saying, unable to understand what I am saying, despite my making it crystal clear.....or you understand perfectly well, and are deliberately avoiding the point.

Frankly, I no longer have any interest in which it is.  I won't be wasting any more time on you, Junebug, since you are either unwilling or incapable of writing anything that gives me the slightest reason to give you any respect, or give your "points" the slightest consideration.

I won't be looking at any of your posts from now on - they simply aren't worth my time. 
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Nam on May 26, 2013, 06:05:07 PM
^she applauded an obvious insult. She has no reading comprehension.

-Nam
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Betelnut on May 26, 2013, 07:13:41 PM
The United States is neither cursed or blessed. 
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 27, 2013, 05:46:15 AM
I fully suspect that you will - once again - ignore the whole thrust of this post. I expect that you will either ignore it, or that you will respond with some more "oh, you just don't get me".  I would be surprised, but delighted, if you even went so far as to say "I understand what you want, but I won't ever answer those questions".  And I would be over the moon - but absolutely gobsmacked - to see a response that acknowledges why those questions are so important when it comes to establishing your credibility, and then goes on to actually ANSWER them.

<<blah de blah de blah>>


Well, as I suspected, not even the slightest attempt to address the point I was making.  So I'm left with only two options.

Either you are simply unable to grasp what I am saying, unable to understand what I am saying, despite my making it crystal clear.....or you understand perfectly well, and are deliberately avoiding the point.

Frankly, I no longer have any interest in which it is.  I won't be wasting any more time on you, Junebug, since you are either unwilling or incapable of writing anything that gives me the slightest reason to give you any respect, or give your "points" the slightest consideration.

I won't be looking at any of your posts from now on - they simply aren't worth my time.

Well so what.  I really don't care what such a hateful person's opinion of me is.  All you got is your false accusations, I have my kindness and that deserves respect.  It's not easy being nice to people that so obviously hate you for being a believer.  I have done nothing to you to deserve your harsh comments. 
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 27, 2013, 05:50:06 AM
^she applauded an obvious insult. She has no reading comprehension.

-Nam

I applauded your insult of A's post being so long.  My reading comprehension is just fine.   I was being nice to you, you should try it sometime it feels good.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: One Above All on May 27, 2013, 05:54:03 AM
No, America is not cursed. Other countries have it worse, but you don't hear them whining about it, even though they probably should.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Nam on May 27, 2013, 07:02:58 AM
^she applauded an obvious insult. She has no reading comprehension.

-Nam

I applauded your insult of A's post being so long.  My reading comprehension is just fine.   I was being nice to you, you should try it sometime it feels good.

I wasn't insulting his post; I was being facetious to insult you. Again: no reading comprehension.

-Nam
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 29, 2013, 08:42:29 AM
^she applauded an obvious insult. She has no reading comprehension.

-Nam

I applauded your insult of A's post being so long.  My reading comprehension is just fine.   I was being nice to you, you should try it sometime it feels good.

I wasn't insulting his post; I was being facetious to insult you. Again: no reading comprehension.

-Nam


Your insult shows your character flaw.  You really like insulting people, that's sad.  You don't care if the world is cruel and petty you make it that way.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Mrjason on May 29, 2013, 08:53:40 AM
have a go on this thread Junebug, insulting people can be fun. Magicmiles is pretty good at too :)

This is a blatant copy from IGI. When I hung out there briefly last year it was a lot of fun.

For the uninitiated, the idea is to just come up with any type of strange, creative insult.

I'll kick off by insulting myself in the next post.

click the linky at the top.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: nogodsforme on May 29, 2013, 02:29:45 PM
^she applauded an obvious insult. She has no reading comprehension.

-Nam

I applauded your insult of A's post being so long.  My reading comprehension is just fine.   I was being nice to you, you should try it sometime it feels good.

JB, you think people here don't like you because you believe in a god. That is not true. People are being critical of you because you do not clearly answer questions they ask. You get distracted and sidetracked by minor issues and miss the main points of the post. Many of your responses are defending yourself against non-existent attacks.

Here is a suggestion. Read people's posts and respond to the substance, rather than the perceived tone. It is hard to determine whether a person is being mean or sarcastic in a debate-type forum. Unless the person is obviously saying "you are an idiot because you believe xyz," don't presume that is what they think. Respond to what someone actually said, not what you think they mean.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: neopagan on May 29, 2013, 02:57:55 PM
have a go on this thread Junebug, insulting people can be fun. Magicmiles is pretty good at too :)

This is a blatant copy from IGI. When I hung out there briefly last year it was a lot of fun.

For the uninitiated, the idea is to just come up with any type of strange, creative insult.

I'll kick off by insulting myself in the next post.

click the linky at the top.

I wouldn't recommend JB going there.  Just sayin'
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Razel on May 30, 2013, 04:07:40 AM
Quote from: junebug72
All you got is your false accusations, I have my kindness and that deserves respect. 

Being passive aggressive is your idea of kindness?
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 30, 2013, 08:55:22 AM
JB, you think people here don't like you because you believe in a god. That is not true. People are being critical of you because you do not clearly answer questions they ask. You get distracted and sidetracked by minor issues and miss the main points of the post. Many of your responses are defending yourself against non-existent attacks.

Here is a suggestion. Read people's posts and respond to the substance, rather than the perceived tone. It is hard to determine whether a person is being mean or sarcastic in a debate-type forum. Unless the person is obviously saying "you are an idiot because you believe xyz," don't presume that is what they think. Respond to what someone actually said, not what you think they mean.
I would also like to add that there is no shame in asking for clarity from a poster.

Well so what.  I really don't care what such a hateful person's opinion of me is.  All you got is your false accusations, I have my kindness and that deserves respect.  It's not easy being nice to people that so obviously hate you for being a believer.  I have done nothing to you to deserve your harsh comments. 
How would you define 'respect' or 'respectful behavior'?
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 31, 2013, 05:38:00 AM

I would also like to add that there is no shame in asking for clarity from a poster.

How would you define 'respect' or 'respectful behavior'?

Jdawg there is a respectful way to ask for clarity.  For that question to make sense there must be an answer that needs clarifying.  Saying I have dodged or not answered is going to get a different response such as; I did answer your question.  Oh, but that doesn't attack the character of the person does it?

I define respect as common decency.  The wiki def. is more about earned respect.  Maybe I'm confusing respect with kindness, but when I treat a homeless person with kindness I'm attempting to show them respect. 

I think that's why the ad hominem style that some people here are using, unmoderated and by mods, is not a good way to debate.  It is very disrespectful and more important than that it is unkind.

 
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on May 31, 2013, 05:55:14 AM
Quote from: junebug72
All you got is your false accusations, I have my kindness and that deserves respect. 

Being passive aggressive is your idea of kindness?

How did you come to that conclusion?  I am not aggressive unless provoked.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: The Gawd on May 31, 2013, 07:13:34 AM
So may you answer this JB, I have asked it once before.

But I will make it larger and bolder as to not be missed.

SINCE YOU RECOGNIZE THAT WEATHER HAS NATURAL CAUSES ON OTHER PLANETS WHY WOULD YOU THINK WEATHER HAS A DIFFERENT CAUSE ON EARTH?
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Jag on May 31, 2013, 09:46:40 AM
Once again, I think I'm catching on.

jb, I'm going to restate your premise to see if I've figured out what you mean - please correct me if I get it wrong:

Is America experiencing a backlash of negative things because of the harm we have done to others throughout our countries history? Something of a karmic scale balancing act? What goes around, comes around?

Is that what you are saying, more or less?

Really Jag I just asked a question.  I wanted to know what evangelicals thought on the subject.  Go figure I'm not getting anybody but MM on this atheist website.  Just so you know, I've tried a couple of Christian forums and they don't let you say anything hardly.  Especially about their stand against gays.  So let's say this, for religious folks let's go with cursed and for you atheist let's go with your question.

I should let you write my OT you get my point across better than i do.  I have this 1 style of writing and it doesn't work well here.  I could have GB's attitude and accept it or I can try harder until I get it right.  I have been on my own with my beliefs for so long.  That's why it seems like a fantasy to you all, it kind of is.  I did not want my thoughts clouded by what other people thought.  See story telling is the only way I know to get my point across.  I don't do it to drive you crazy or anything.

Back on subject. I do want to know if any religious members thinks America is cursed. I don't think God is punishing America.  I do think America brings some things upon itself but not tornados, although it is possible that pollution/global warming is making them more intense.

I included this entire block because a) I don't believe I ever responded to it and b) WWGHA - we might be able to get this back on track by paying attention to the words jb bolded in her reply to me.

So jb, apologies for dropping out of this thread - it was starting to get out of hand and I stopped participating. I think the bolded sentence may have been missed by everyone, or perhaps it just got buried in other Q&A's.

Stepping away from the weather and focusing on the rest of your post, that's a conversation I'd be interested in having. How much of America's current problems are the result of America's previous choices, and which ones should we discuss? I would suggest a different thread if anyone wants to talk about it though, and to narrow the scope of the topic to at most, a few specific issues - one at a time might be better. Climate change, economics, education, any number of things could be considered - I would suggest avoiding anything based on emotions and stick to actions/decisions/things that can be changed by making other choices or policy changes (government action is not always the best solution). Anything you might have been thinking of here "I do think America brings some things upon itself" (and for the record, I do too) could work as well. 

Regardless of anyone else's opinion at this point, I want to say that I'm impressed that you are sticking around and trying to get your ideas across. I haven't asked for posting access in the Shelter but I've been reading your posts there as well. I realize that there's been a lot of frustration on both sides, and I'm finding some respect for your determination to make yourself understood. This is what I asked for and you're doing your damnedest to meet me halfway - I can do the same.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: epidemic on May 31, 2013, 10:22:26 AM
actually we are kinda blessed.

Life is not exactly perfect,  horrible things seem to happen but when compared on a whole to the 7 billion people living on earth.  Our 300,000,000 people lead a super life statistically speaking.

Our poor need a new terminology to describe their lot in life.   Food insecure, when starvation, and malnutrition are not obvious we come up with occasionally we miss a meal.   

However for a huge portion of the population there are real problems, real food insecurity like now knowing if you can feed your kid resulting in them dying.  Or Having to choose which child will survive.   Women being raped, and murdered in the public square.

bombs dropping, perpetual civil wars,  malaria.

Our poor worry about being able to afford next weeks rent or if they will have to move back in with mom or into a public shelter.

The vast majority of our population worry if they will be able to afford college for their kids or whether the kids will have to take a government loan.


on measure America is charmed at this moment in time.


PS I use the blessed and charmed terminologies in the least magical way possible.




however assuming that there is a magical solution can you please tell me why would god curse a country, a region, and a group of people who had nothing to do with the attrocities you mentioned.    I am sure that people of tornado ally are no less godless than those in NYC.  I wager that the peoples houses sucked up were not all atheists. 

Why would god curse a region of people who never killed an indian, or had a slave in their house or their grandmothers, or their grandmothers grandmothers house. 
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: nogodsforme on May 31, 2013, 10:39:48 AM
I think it is the fact that for the past 50 years, America was the world leader in so many areas. We thought it was because we were so smart and so great, when it was mainly having survived WWI and II without being bombed flat like the rest of the world. Everyone wanted to come here,  and the world let us have a free pass with our ignorance and arrogance. That was the charmed period, when everyone thought that it would be like that forever, with increasing prosperity and security for all. Truth, justice and the American way all the way down.

Now, we are having to compete with the rest of the world because they have started to catch up. China and India will swamp us, because they have more smart, hardworking and ambitious people than we do. It's just the numbers. And the rest of the world is now competing for the resources (oil, water, minerals, land to grow food, cheap labor) that we thought we would be able to control forever. We can only push countries around militarily for so long. Other countries have nuclear bombs and sh!t too.

Africa, the Middle East and Latin America don't have to give us their goodies cheaply anymore, if China or Russia is making them a better offer. We in the US have to recognize the new global reality. Unfortunately, instead of realizing that everyone in the US needs a basic safety net, like universal health care and decent education, so we can survive and compete, we are still acting like we will all become millionaires if we just work hard enough. :P &)
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: jdawg70 on May 31, 2013, 11:07:45 AM

I would also like to add that there is no shame in asking for clarity from a poster.

How would you define 'respect' or 'respectful behavior'?

Jdawg there is a respectful way to ask for clarity.  For that question to make sense there must be an answer that needs clarifying.  Saying I have dodged or not answered is going to get a different response such as; I did answer your question.  Oh, but that doesn't attack the character of the person does it?

I define respect as common decency.  The wiki def. is more about earned respect.  Maybe I'm confusing respect with kindness, but when I treat a homeless person with kindness I'm attempting to show them respect. 

I think that's why the ad hominem style that some people here are using, unmoderated and by mods, is not a good way to debate.  It is very disrespectful and more important than that it is unkind.
Agreed - there are certainly respectful ways to ask for clarity.  I think being accused of not answering a question or dodging a question isn't disrespectful though.  I really don't.  If you are asked a question and your response doesn't appear to address the question, then it is of the utmost respect to make that known in hopes of resolving that discrepancy.  That discrepancy can exist either by the responder failing to actually address the question or the poster failing to recognize the response, but unless it's made known in some form or fashion then the dialog cannot proceed.  The best approach to responding to an accusation of dodging is to further explain how your response actually addressed the question at hand.

Common decency is, simply put, insufficient for respect.  I would contend that it is a necessary component, but simply being decent isn't necessarily being respectful.  If you asked me to explain the behavior of an all-pass gain circuit, and I, very nicely and decently, go on to explain how a sigma delta ADC worked, well I may have been very nice about it but I've be exceptionally disrespectful towards you because I basically ignored what you wanted.  Doesn't matter how bloody nice I was about it.

This is the best example I can come up with for 'nice yet disrespectful' behavior: think of how you treat a 6-year old child.  You'd probably say that, in general, you treat that 6-year old child nicely.  Now try treating a 37-year adult in the exact same way.  You may be very nice, but it would be very disrespectful to treat a 37-year old like a 6-year old.

I think a fundamental disconnect exists in expectations here.  What I don't think you're picking up on is that responding to a question and answering or addressing that question are not necessarily the same thing.  Your constant assumption that people are just levying false accusations and not engaging in genuine, honest inquiry is, frankly, disrespectful.

In the 'Believing in god is not a bad thing' thread, I at one point recommended (in a harsher tone) that you find others around you to evaluate how you behaved in that thread.  I still stand by that recommendation - I don't think anyone around here needs to know of any results or anything from that, as it is something for your own edification, but I think it would be a good idea (please note I am not necessarily saying it is an easy idea).  Take that advice as you will.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: epidemic on May 31, 2013, 11:16:33 AM
Just another thought.   if god is responsible for cursing the people/countries/regions.   Then it would appear as if it were not those who your would expect.

The poor seem to be the most cursed.  The indians appear to have had some serious problem with god because he let the whiteman come in and wipe them out.  Africans must have been intrinsically evil because they were enslaved for centuries.  Generation after generation of blacks were raised as slaves used as farm equipment and love toys and died while slaves.

10's Millions of dead indians, 10's of millions of black slaves, and as punishment for these crimes white folks have an occasional storm that knocks down their insurred houses and kill a few dozen people.   Seems fair.


God may be real or not,   but a thunderstorm and a few thousand homes being knocked down is hardly evidence of a curse.  If it is a curse then it is a pretty lame one.  Now send some zombies and or kill thousands of people with no evidence of foul play then I go for curse maybe.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Jag on May 31, 2013, 05:43:53 PM
actually we are kinda blessed.
Agreed.

Quote
Life is not exactly perfect,  horrible things seem to happen but when compared on a whole to the 7 billion people living on earth.  Our 300,000,000 people lead a super life statistically speaking.
<snip>

on measure America is charmed at this moment in time.

I don't dispute any of what you said, but that's not the conversation I was proposing. We can certainly have this one as well, but it should also be in a separate topic.

Quote
PS I use the blessed and charmed terminologies in the least magical way possible.

That made me chuckle  :)

Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: The Gawd on May 31, 2013, 07:36:36 PM
some people call it "blessed"

I call it the best business model ever known... stolen land from the indigenous people and free labor on the backs of unpaid slaves. No matter how hard americans try you cant untie this "blessing" from those deplorable acts. Call it blessed if you want, I call it a curse lol.

imagine if I was starting a restaurant and I didnt have to pay for materials or pay my workers, think I would have an advantage over the next guy with bottom lines to meet because they have bills to pay?
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: DumpsterFire on June 01, 2013, 01:18:45 AM
I think the real question here should be why the heck is anyone still stupid enough to live in Moore, OK? The place has been hit by severe tornadoes 5 times since 1998, 2 of which were deadly. If there actually was a curse in effect, then Moore must be perpetrating some sinning not seen since the days of Sodom and Gomorrah[1]. There must be a freaky, Zed-buggering-Marcellus Wallace-type sex dungeon in the basement of every home in town or something.
 1. Poor second fiddle Gomorrah. Nobody ever talks about them without first mentioning Sodom. Worse still, they didn't even get any unnatural sex acts named after them.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: DumpsterFire on June 01, 2013, 01:23:54 AM
^she applauded an obvious insult. She has no reading comprehension.

-Nam

I applauded your insult of A's post being so long.  My reading comprehension is just fine.   I was being nice to you, you should try it sometime it feels good.

I wasn't insulting his post; I was being facetious to insult you. Again: no reading comprehension.

-Nam

FYI, I also thought you were admonishing Anf to be more concise, so perhaps your insult wasn't as obvious as you intended.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 01, 2013, 06:35:07 AM
So may you answer this JB, I have asked it once before.

But I will make it larger and bolder as to not be missed.

SINCE YOU RECOGNIZE THAT WEATHER HAS NATURAL CAUSES ON OTHER PLANETS WHY WOULD YOU THINK WEATHER HAS A DIFFERENT CAUSE ON EARTH?

I wish you would listen Gawd.  I don't believe God is cursing any country on this planet.  Ask a question that makes some sense please.  I'm on your side.

To make this conversation interesting I will say that if there was a difference it would be the human factor. Don't you think that people that believe in curses do so because of human behaviour?  Wasn't it Pat Robertson that said the deadly tornado was punishment for a gay BB player?  There are no gay BB players on Jupiter.  There are no murderers, perverts, or cruelty of any kind.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 01, 2013, 06:55:16 AM

I included this entire block because a) I don't believe I ever responded to it and b) WWGHA - we might be able to get this back on track by paying attention to the words jb bolded in her reply to me.

So jb, apologies for dropping out of this thread - it was starting to get out of hand and I stopped participating. I think the bolded sentence may have been missed by everyone, or perhaps it just got buried in other Q&A's.

Stepping away from the weather and focusing on the rest of your post, that's a conversation I'd be interested in having. How much of America's current problems are the result of America's previous choices, and which ones should we discuss? I would suggest a different thread if anyone wants to talk about it though, and to narrow the scope of the topic to at most, a few specific issues - one at a time might be better. Climate change, economics, education, any number of things could be considered - I would suggest avoiding anything based on emotions and stick to actions/decisions/things that can be changed by making other choices or policy changes (government action is not always the best solution). Anything you might have been thinking of here "I do think America brings some things upon itself" (and for the record, I do too) could work as well. 

Regardless of anyone else's opinion at this point, I want to say that I'm impressed that you are sticking around and trying to get your ideas across. I haven't asked for posting access in the Shelter but I've been reading your posts there as well. I realize that there's been a lot of frustration on both sides, and I'm finding some respect for your determination to make yourself understood. This is what I asked for and you're doing your damnedest to meet me halfway - I can do the same.

Thanks Jag. 

I wish you would start a new thread.  This one did get out of hand.  I tried to stay calm. My apologies for the unpleasantness of it all. This is my first time ever doing anything like this.  I am a rookie.  The last thing I want to do is make enemies here or develope a bad impression of my belief.  That is very important to me.  I think we have all seen and heard enough of bad beliefs.

It's hard to discuss the consequences of pollution w/o discussing the weather.  The most dangerous effect of pollution is global warming is it not?  My question was, could that be causing more intense, violent tornados and hurricanes.  I pay attention when global warming is being discussed and I believe it is a valid concern. 
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 01, 2013, 07:40:40 AM
Our poor worry about being able to afford next weeks rent or if they will have to move back in with mom or into a public shelter.

Don't forget healthcare.
 
however assuming that there is a magical solution can you please tell me why would god curse a country, a region, and a group of people who had nothing to do with the attrocities you mentioned.    I am sure that people of tornado ally are no less godless than those in NYC.  I wager that the peoples houses sucked up were not all atheists. 

Why would god curse a region of people who never killed an indian, or had a slave in their house or their grandmothers, or their grandmothers grandmothers house.

Good point epidemic.  Good point.



I agree our country is in better shape than others but why settle for mediocracy when you could achieve true greatness.  My son said something the other day that made some sense.  He said I wouldn't mind being poor if everybody was.  It is the gap between the wealthy and the poor that is not necessary.  This is not the best we can do.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: The Gawd on June 01, 2013, 07:52:28 AM
I wish you would listen Gawd.  I don't believe God is cursing any country on this planet.  Ask a question that makes some sense please.  I'm on your side.

To make this conversation interesting I will say that if there was a difference it would be the human factor. Don't you think that people that believe in curses do so because of human behaviour?  Wasn't it Pat Robertson that said the deadly tornado was punishment for a gay BB player?  There are no gay BB players on Jupiter.  There are no murderers, perverts, or cruelty of any kind.

Well, as others have pointed out, you suggested in the initial post that this weather is perhaps a curse due to what america did to the indigenous people and africans. If you dont think your god is cursing the US, then your initial post makes no sense. Why even mention the indigenous people and slavery since you dont think it had anything to with the tornado? Especially since you said it got you to thinking maybe america is cursed. Also then you clarify for Jag that it could be any god doing the cursing. Then on page two you seem to switch the tune to perhaps its a self curse which requires you (as has been pointed out) to bend the definition of "curse" and you also start to try to veer towards pollution related weather patterns. Then we veered to some karma discussion, which again would make me ask the cause of extreme weather on other planets.

See my participation in the thread is limited because I dont necessarily like long drawn out conversations and such, I generally have a point, address the point, and be done with it. So when you insinuated the tornado may be a curse from god the obvious question for me was why then do lifeless planets have natural disasters? You answered that question somewhat correctly. So the only other natural question was why suggest anything other than the answer you gave for my previous question....and all of a sudden my question doesnt make sense?

spare me.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: The Gawd on June 01, 2013, 07:56:02 AM
<snip>
however assuming that there is a magical solution can you please tell me why would god curse a country, a region, and a group of people who had nothing to do with the attrocities you mentioned.    I am sure that people of tornado ally are no less godless than those in NYC.  I wager that the peoples houses sucked up were not all atheists. 

Why would god curse a region of people who never killed an indian, or had a slave in their house or their grandmothers, or their grandmothers grandmothers house. <snip>
In his autobiography, the bible, yahweh says he will punish the children for the sins of the father. generation after generation.
Even states that bastard children wont make it to heaven...

good ol yahweh, always just!
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 01, 2013, 08:09:31 AM
Agreed - there are certainly respectful ways to ask for clarity.  I think being accused of not answering a question or dodging a question isn't disrespectful though.  I really don't.  If you are asked a question and your response doesn't appear to address the question, then it is of the utmost respect to make that known in hopes of resolving that discrepancy.  That discrepancy can exist either by the responder failing to actually address the question or the poster failing to recognize the response, but unless it's made known in some form or fashion then the dialog cannot proceed.  The best approach to responding to an accusation of dodging is to further explain how your response actually addressed the question at hand.

Point given and received.

Common decency is, simply put, insufficient for respect.  I would contend that it is a necessary component, but simply being decent isn't necessarily being respectful.  If you asked me to explain the behavior of an all-pass gain circuit, and I, very nicely and decently, go on to explain how a sigma delta ADC worked, well I may have been very nice about it but I've be exceptionally disrespectful towards you because I basically ignored what you wanted.  Doesn't matter how bloody nice I was about it.

This is the best example I can come up with for 'nice yet disrespectful' behavior: think of how you treat a 6-year old child.  You'd probably say that, in general, you treat that 6-year old child nicely.  Now try treating a 37-year adult in the exact same way.  You may be very nice, but it would be very disrespectful to treat a 37-year old like a 6-year old.

Okay.


I think a fundamental disconnect exists in expectations here.  What I don't think you're picking up on is that responding to a question and answering or addressing that question are not necessarily the same thing.  Your constant assumption that people are just levying false accusations and not engaging in genuine, honest inquiry is, frankly, disrespectful.

In the 'Believing in god is not a bad thing' thread, I at one point recommended (in a harsher tone) that you find others around you to evaluate how you behaved in that thread.  I still stand by that recommendation - I don't think anyone around here needs to know of any results or anything from that, as it is something for your own edification, but I think it would be a good idea (please note I am not necessarily saying it is an easy idea).  Take that advice as you will.

There have been some like Jag with an honest attempt for clarity.  For others not the case.  I'm not going to debate this any further.  I know the difference between meanness and kindness.  I know when I'm being insulted.  Perhaps if question dodging was the only insult I had to deal with I wouldn't make such a big deal, but it's not.  The first time I was accused of dodging by star stuff she found 1 question out of many that was not answered.  If I have answered all but 1 out of many how is that dodging not simply just overlooked?  If there was empathy involved a person would understand that I had my hands full, but that doesn't attack my character does it?  There was more of that going on in that thread that good valid points on belief being a bad thing from the atheist members that participated on that thread.  I'm over it now.  You will never ever ever convince me that I was treated with much kindness on that thread, this thread, or any thread by certain members here.




Well, as others have pointed out, you suggested in the initial post that this weather is perhaps a curse due to what america did to the indigenous people and africans. If you dont think your god is cursing the US, then your initial post makes no sense. Why even mention the indigenous people and slavery since you dont think it had anything to with the tornado? Especially since you said it got you to thinking maybe america is cursed. Also then you clarify for Jag that it could be any god doing the cursing. Then on page two you seem to switch the tune to perhaps its a self curse which requires you (as has been pointed out) to bend the definition of "curse" and you also start to try to veer towards pollution related weather patterns. Then we veered to some karma discussion, which again would make me ask the cause of extreme weather on other planets.

See my participation in the thread is limited because I dont necessarily like long drawn out conversations and such, I generally have a point, address the point, and be done with it. So when you insinuated the tornado may be a curse from god the obvious question for me was why then do lifeless planets have natural disasters? You answered that question somewhat correctly. So the only other natural question was why suggest anything other than the answer you gave for my previous question....and all of a sudden my question doesnt make sense?

spare me.

There have been many posts since then where I have made my lack of belief in curses more clear.  Why ignore those?
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: The Gawd on June 01, 2013, 08:20:41 AM
There have been many posts since then where I have made my lack of belief in curses more clear.  Why ignore those?
I cannot always read every post in a thread, especially when they veer off in different directions. However, if you have a lack of belief in curses then your initial post and early follow ups make no sense and I would be correct to question them using the line of questioning that I did. If by participating in the thread, you altered your opinion/beliefs/views, then that is a step in the right direction.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 01, 2013, 08:22:22 AM
I think the real question here should be why the heck is anyone still stupid enough to live in Moore, OK? The place has been hit by severe tornadoes 5 times since 1998, 2 of which were deadly. If there actually was a curse in effect, then Moore must be perpetrating some sinning not seen since the days of Sodom and Gomorrah[1]. There must be a freaky, Zed-buggering-Marcellus Wallace-type sex dungeon in the basement of every home in town or something.
 1. Poor second fiddle Gomorrah. Nobody ever talks about them without first mentioning Sodom. Worse still, they didn't even get any unnatural sex acts named after them.

When I got home last night my honey says OK is getting hit again.  I said are we going to have to close Oklahoma?  What about Florida and it's hurricanes?  There aren't a whole lot of places where we could all live w/o any natural disasters.  I live in WNC and the climate here is mostly very nice.  We had a blizzard in 1993. It took 14 lives.   It's not that easy to pack up your family and start anew especially in this economy.  Especially if you can't sell your house because nobody wants to move to Moore, OK.



gonorrhea is close :laugh:
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 01, 2013, 08:25:48 AM
There have been many posts since then where I have made my lack of belief in curses more clear.  Why ignore those?
I cannot always read every post in a thread, especially when they veer off in different directions. However, if you have a lack of belief in curses then your initial post and early follow ups make no sense and I would be correct to question them using the line of questioning that I did. If by participating in the thread, you altered your opinion/beliefs/views, then that is a step in the right direction.

It was in bold so you could easily see it.  I even posted 1 that was specifically for clarification.  I do however, understand your confusion and I apologize for not being more clear in my original post.  I am a rookie after all.  No excuses though.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 01, 2013, 08:29:32 AM

In his autobiography, the bible, yahweh says he will punish the children for the sins of the father. generation after generation.
Even states that bastard children wont make it to heaven...

good ol yahweh, always just!

Don't believe the bible is God's autobiography but very good point.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: The Gawd on June 01, 2013, 08:56:23 AM
Don't believe the bible is God's autobiography but very good point.

I dont believe god exists, but either way the bible is certainly yahweh's autobiography. and there are billions of people who also believe it. Where else can you learn about this character, yahweh? Why should I accept your disbelief in yahweh's proclaimed autobiography as opposed to the other billions who disagree with you?
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: jaimehlers on June 01, 2013, 11:47:22 AM
Should we call earthquakes in California curses?  Should we call hurricanes along the East Coast curses?

The point, junebug, is that while these things (earthquakes, hurricanes, and tornadoes) are unpleasant for the people who live there, they're not curses.  They're part and parcel of living in that area.  It's a statistical certainty that tornadoes will hit the Great Plains, earthquakes will hit California, and hurricanes will hit the East Coast.

Honestly, most of the weather extremes (tornadoes, hurricanes, deluges, heavy snow out of season, etc) we've been seeing are probably something that humans are bringing upon themselves, out of greed and stupidity.  Global climate change (caused at least in part by human activities, such as the rampant burning of fossil fuels) causes more extreme weather than normal.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Jag on June 01, 2013, 01:45:52 PM

Thanks Jag. 

I wish you would start a new thread

PM me and let's work out what the topic should be. I probably won't have time to do much today - busy with yard work and a bonfire this evening - but we should be able to get a good first post together by the end of the weekend on whatever you want to talk about. I'm happy to help get a topic started that opens with exactly what you want to talk through and to help keep it narrow and focused enough to start a discussion. No way to predict what direction it will veer off into, but we can get a good opening going and see what comes of it.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Jag on June 01, 2013, 01:50:29 PM
Another option is that I could ask for posting permission to The Shelter and maybe we could do it in there? I'm not sure what is required for access, so I'm not sure if I can have it or not - it's automatic for theists. It tends to be a little less overwhelming in that area and it's likely that fewer responses will pop up while you're offline.

I'll wait for you to respond before doing anything about that.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: The Gawd on June 01, 2013, 04:46:34 PM
Another option is that I could ask for posting permission to The Shelter and maybe we could do it in there? I'm not sure what is required for access, so I'm not sure if I can have it or not - it's automatic for theists. It tends to be a little less overwhelming in that area and it's likely that fewer responses will pop up while you're offline.

I'll wait for you to respond before doing anything about that.
you just have to ask and probably have a rep for not being too confrontational...
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Nam on June 01, 2013, 06:49:21 PM
^she applauded an obvious insult. She has no reading comprehension.

-Nam

I applauded your insult of A's post being so long.  My reading comprehension is just fine.   I was being nice to you, you should try it sometime it feels good.

I wasn't insulting his post; I was being facetious to insult you. Again: no reading comprehension.

-Nam

FYI, I also thought you were admonishing Anf to be more concise, so perhaps your insult wasn't as obvious as you intended.

Perhaps you should check your reading comprehension. I'm rarely serious; I think I've proven that time and time again.

-Nam
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: DT on June 01, 2013, 11:00:06 PM
As a believer I will say NO America is not cursed and any believer that stands up on TV and says so and this is the judgment of God is not representing Christ. I have heard similar things myself and one guy said that every hurricane travels old slave route paths...makes you think. Then someone else said the Magna Carta and documents that early settlers established devoting this land to God is the only thing saving us...again just makes you think. We just so happen to be in a good place for natural disasters.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Jag on June 02, 2013, 12:49:49 AM
Another option is that I could ask for posting permission to The Shelter and maybe we could do it in there? I'm not sure what is required for access, so I'm not sure if I can have it or not - it's automatic for theists. It tends to be a little less overwhelming in that area and it's likely that fewer responses will pop up while you're offline.

I'll wait for you to respond before doing anything about that.
you just have to ask and probably have a rep for not being too confrontational...

And to be both honest and fair, I'm not sure that I qualify. I'm going to wait to hear back from junebug before taking any action in any case.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 02, 2013, 06:05:01 AM
Don't believe the bible is God's autobiography but very good point.

I dont believe god exists, but either way the bible is certainly yahweh's autobiography. and there are billions of people who also believe it. Where else can you learn about this character, yahweh? Why should I accept your disbelief in yahweh's proclaimed autobiography as opposed to the other billions who disagree with you?

I don't think anybody claims the bible to be autobiographical but biographical.

What if I put that same logic to atheism?  Why not believe in God since there are so many more believers than non believers?  If it wasn't for  Jesus they wouldn't be so attached either.

You can learn about God through your spirit.  Other cultures know of God and do not use a bible;i.e. Buddhism, Hinduism, Paganism, and many more. Christians make up 1/3 of the population so they are the ones out numbered by the other 2/3. 

When did you hear Yahweh proclaim anything?
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 02, 2013, 06:12:29 AM
Should we call earthquakes in California curses?  Should we call hurricanes along the East Coast curses?

The point, junebug, is that while these things (earthquakes, hurricanes, and tornadoes) are unpleasant for the people who live there, they're not curses.  They're part and parcel of living in that area.  It's a statistical certainty that tornadoes will hit the Great Plains, earthquakes will hit California, and hurricanes will hit the East Coast.

Honestly, most of the weather extremes (tornadoes, hurricanes, deluges, heavy snow out of season, etc) we've been seeing are probably something that humans are bringing upon themselves, out of greed and stupidity.  Global climate change (caused at least in part by human activities, such as the rampant burning of fossil fuels) causes more extreme weather than normal.

Yea I know that's what I said.  Global warming could be causing more intense weather.  So glad that we can agree.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 02, 2013, 06:26:52 AM

Perhaps you should check your reading comprehension. I'm rarely serious; I think I've proven that time and time again.

-Nam

Perhaps you should check your kindness skills they are very weak. ;)  Do you care anything at all about making this world better?

I scored very high on the reading comprehension part of my accuplacer test.

You did insult Anfauglir's post.  The funny part is you don't even realize it.  Maybe it's because you're blinded by your cruelty. I dunno.  I thought it was like a very long winding road.  It wore me out just looking at it.  You said it was too long and I agreed by giving you a thumbs up.

I realized you were insulting me too and I gave you the thumbs up anyway because that's how I roll. I'm nice.  It had nothing to do with a lack of comprehension.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: The Gawd on June 02, 2013, 08:24:20 AM
I don't think anybody claims the bible to be autobiographical but biographical.

What if I put that same logic to atheism?  Why not believe in God since there are so many more believers than non believers?  If it wasn't for  Jesus they wouldn't be so attached either.

You can learn about God through your spirit.  Other cultures know of God and do not use a bible;i.e. Buddhism, Hinduism, Paganism, and many more. Christians make up 1/3 of the population so they are the ones out numbered by the other 2/3. 

When did you hear Yahweh proclaim anything?
When they believe the bible is yahweh's Word. Autobiographies often times have co-writers as authors arent usually the people the have books written about them. So yahweh inspired the writers in that they were simply jotting down yahwehs words according to them. You missed the point of the billions of believers... THE POINT is why should I listen to YOU over THEM? Especially since you apparently agree this god has a name and that name is yahweh. The ONLY place you get that name is in the Jewish scriptures, or OT. So again we have you claiming to not believe in the bible and christianity, but showing again that you do.

I reject this spirit talk until you can define and demonstrate it. The funny thing about other cultures knowing of "god" these versions of "god" are often mutually exclusive; meaning if you believe in the god of the bible or koran you dont believe in the gods of other cultures thus they are also non believers. Some form of Buddhism doesnt have a god, rather a way of life. The point you seem to be missing is that ALL these god stories cannot be true. Depending on which belief you adhere to you basically conclude ALL the others are made up.
And indeed they ALL sound made up.

Never heard yahweh proclaim a thing, he doesnt exist. But that doesnt mean his collection of myths dont exist. The same way Peter Parker was bitten by a spider to become Spider Man, yahweh inspired/wrote yahweh's word. Its all comic books.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 02, 2013, 12:35:02 PM

When they believe the bible is yahweh's Word. Autobiographies often times have co-writers as authors arent usually the people the have books written about them. So yahweh inspired the writers in that they were simply jotting down yahwehs words according to them. You missed the point of the billions of believers... THE POINT is why should I listen to YOU over THEM? Especially since you apparently agree this god has a name and that name is yahweh. The ONLY place you get that name is in the Jewish scriptures, or OT. So again we have you claiming to not believe in the bible and christianity, but showing again that you do.

I reject this spirit talk until you can define and demonstrate it. The funny thing about other cultures knowing of "god" these versions of "god" are often mutually exclusive; meaning if you believe in the god of the bible or koran you dont believe in the gods of other cultures thus they are also non believers. Some form of Buddhism doesnt have a god, rather a way of life. The point you seem to be missing is that ALL these god stories cannot be true. Depending on which belief you adhere to you basically conclude ALL the others are made up.
And indeed they ALL sound made up.

Never heard yahweh proclaim a thing, he doesnt exist. But that doesnt mean his collection of myths dont exist. The same way Peter Parker was bitten by a spider to become Spider Man, yahweh inspired/wrote yahweh's word. Its all comic books.

I have never called God Yahweh. I did it for you because that is who you said you heard.  You don't have to listen to me no more than I have to listen to you.

Where do you get strength from if your physical strength is gone?  I have demonstrated a strong spirit by surviving a traumatic childhood and turning  it into something good; a desire to help others.  There are many stories of people overcoming great obstacles because of their strong spirit.  People that survive cancer or other health problems have a strong spirit.  That is not to say that people that do not survive have not got a strong spirit if they fought as hard as they could they too have a strong spirit/will to survive.

If he doesn't exist there is no way he wrote an autobiography. lol

Ok, I think God Loves us and that's inspired by God.  Did he just add to his autobiography? Change it?
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: The Gawd on June 02, 2013, 03:52:05 PM
I have never called God Yahweh. I did it for you because that is who you said you heard.  You don't have to listen to me no more than I have to listen to you.

Where do you get strength from if your physical strength is gone?  I have demonstrated a strong spirit by surviving a traumatic childhood and turning  it into something good; a desire to help others.  There are many stories of people overcoming great obstacles because of their strong spirit.  People that survive cancer or other health problems have a strong spirit.  That is not to say that people that do not survive have not got a strong spirit if they fought as hard as they could they too have a strong spirit/will to survive.

If he doesn't exist there is no way he wrote an autobiography. lol

Ok, I think God Loves us and that's inspired by God.  Did he just add to his autobiography? Change it?
You asserted that the bible is not yahweh's autobiography. When infact it is. It is a work of fiction, an autobiographical work of fiction. It may not be Krishna's autobiography, but it is yahweh's.

You have not demonstrated your physical strength was gone. If you mean energy was gone, then once it is gone, you have no more plain and simple. Plenty people survive traumatic childhoods and different experiences. That is not evidence of a spirit. You have yet to define a spirit.

No, your assertion that the god you made up loves us would not be a part of yahwehs autobiography. You would have to let  your god "inspire" you to copy down its "Word" if you want your god to have an autobiography too. But what it shows is that all these stories are  myths.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 03, 2013, 07:39:15 AM
I have never called God Yahweh. I did it for you because that is who you said you heard.  You don't have to listen to me no more than I have to listen to you.

Where do you get strength from if your physical strength is gone?  I have demonstrated a strong spirit by surviving a traumatic childhood and turning  it into something good; a desire to help others.  There are many stories of people overcoming great obstacles because of their strong spirit.  People that survive cancer or other health problems have a strong spirit.  That is not to say that people that do not survive have not got a strong spirit if they fought as hard as they could they too have a strong spirit/will to survive.

If he doesn't exist there is no way he wrote an autobiography. lol

Ok, I think God Loves us and that's inspired by God.  Did he just add to his autobiography? Change it?
You asserted that the bible is not yahweh's autobiography. When infact it is. It is a work of fiction, an autobiographical work of fiction. It may not be Krishna's autobiography, but it is yahweh's.

You have not demonstrated your physical strength was gone. If you mean energy was gone, then once it is gone, you have no more plain and simple. Plenty people survive traumatic childhoods and different experiences. That is not evidence of a spirit. You have yet to define a spirit.

No, your assertion that the god you made up loves us would not be a part of yahwehs autobiography. You would have to let  your god "inspire" you to copy down its "Word" if you want your god to have an autobiography too. But what it shows is that all these stories are  myths.

wiki:
An autobiography is a self-written account of the life of a person.

I figured you would say that. I defined spirit in detail in the Believing in God is not a bad thing thread.  Spirit is the same thing as life.  When your spirit leaves your body, the body dies and the spirit moves on. IMO and many others your spirit never dies.  You can convince me God doesn't exist before you could convince me living things don't have spirit. 

I didn't need physical strength to survive that childhood.  I needed spiritual strength.   I had no will to live.  It was my strong spirit that saw me through.  My spirit overcome the hurt and desperation, not my muscles.

I said it was inspired by God.  I believe there is 1 God that has many interpretations so my God is the same as biblical God just a different interpretation.  I do not interpret God the same as Moses or Abraham, or David or the church next door.  The bible is their interpretation not an autobiography.

Please get back on topic.

Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: screwtape on June 03, 2013, 08:36:41 AM
I think the whole autobiography argument has run its course.  Let's please move on.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: epidemic on June 03, 2013, 09:07:25 AM
<snip>
however assuming that there is a magical solution can you please tell me why would god curse a country, a region, and a group of people who had nothing to do with the attrocities you mentioned.    I am sure that people of tornado ally are no less godless than those in NYC.  I wager that the peoples houses sucked up were not all atheists. 

Why would god curse a region of people who never killed an indian, or had a slave in their house or their grandmothers, or their grandmothers grandmothers house. <snip>
In his autobiography, the bible, yahweh says he will punish the children for the sins of the father. generation after generation.
Even states that bastard children wont make it to heaven...

good ol yahweh, always just!

I am not sure what you are saying about Yahweh?  But I think thus far the exact opposite is happening.  America's lives a charmed life even thought much evil went into our current standard of living.  We cry about a couple of hardships but generally that is just whining because we live such a charmed life.  It is like the poor guy in drought stricken African village,  he is glad when he finds a piece of moldy bread and not too spoiled meat.  We cry when we cant afford a new refrigerator with out an ice maker.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: epidemic on June 03, 2013, 09:21:52 AM
Honestly, most of the weather extremes (tornadoes, hurricanes, deluges, heavy snow out of season, etc) we've been seeing are probably something that humans are bringing upon themselves, out of greed and stupidity.  Global climate change (caused at least in part by human activities, such as the rampant burning of fossil fuels) causes more extreme weather than normal.

Were it not for the burning of fossil fuels we would have much greater human suffering on a smaller population.  Fossil fuels for better or worse are responsible for the human condition.  With out them we would be living in pete shacks with dirt floors and eeking out an existence from the land. 

Modern medicine, electricity, food production, food distribution, basically everything we take for granted is a byproduct of fossil fuels. 

PS most people who lambast the "greed of society" would not give up the money they spend on their luxuries in more than a token way.  I doubt any of you would give up your TV let alone your food, clothing and shelter to basic sustinance levels to support people in true poverty.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Jag on June 03, 2013, 09:41:49 AM
Honestly, most of the weather extremes (tornadoes, hurricanes, deluges, heavy snow out of season, etc) we've been seeing are probably something that humans are bringing upon themselves, out of greed and stupidity.  Global climate change (caused at least in part by human activities, such as the rampant burning of fossil fuels) causes more extreme weather than normal.

Were it not for the burning of fossil fuels we would have much greater human suffering on a smaller population.  Fossil fuels for better or worse are responsible for the human condition.  With out them we would be living in pete shacks with dirt floors and eeking out an existence from the land. 

Modern medicine, electricity, food production, food distribution, basically everything we take for granted is a byproduct of fossil fuels. 

PS most people who lambast the "greed of society" would not give up the money they spend on their luxuries in more than a token way.  I doubt any of you would give up your TV let alone your food, clothing and shelter to basic sustinance levels to support people in true poverty.

The topic of your PS merits it's own thread. There's some broad assertions in there that are worth discussing if you actually want to talk about them.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 03, 2013, 10:13:35 AM

I am not sure what you are saying about Yahweh?  But I think thus far the exact opposite is happening.  America's lives a charmed life even thought much evil went into our current standard of living.  We cry about a couple of hardships but generally that is just whining because we live such a charmed life.  It is like the poor guy in drought stricken African village,  he is glad when he finds a piece of moldy bread and not too spoiled meat.  We cry when we cant afford a new refrigerator with out an ice maker.

It is not very charming to live in pain because you can not afford the health care required for fixing it.  It is not charming to tell your children that they can't have things as nice as the other kids at school.  It is not charming to work your a$$ off at a full time job and still not be able to pay your bills and buy your family nice things that would make their lives easier.  I guess what pisses me off the most is the illusion that the American Dream is accessible to all when it is not.  The odds are clearly stacked against the poor.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: epidemic on June 03, 2013, 12:35:58 PM

I am not sure what you are saying about Yahweh?  But I think thus far the exact opposite is happening.  America's lives a charmed life even thought much evil went into our current standard of living.  We cry about a couple of hardships but generally that is just whining because we live such a charmed life.  It is like the poor guy in drought stricken African village,  he is glad when he finds a piece of moldy bread and not too spoiled meat.  We cry when we cant afford a new refrigerator with out an ice maker.

It is not very charming to live in pain because you can not afford the health care required for fixing it.  It is not charming to tell your children that they can't have things as nice as the other kids at school.  It is not charming to work your a$$ off at a full time job and still not be able to pay your bills and buy your family nice things that would make their lives easier.  I guess what pisses me off the most is the illusion that the American Dream is accessible to all when it is not.  The odds are clearly stacked against the poor.

yes there is stratification in America.  all those things are inconveniences when compared with true suffering.  The poorest of americans live lives of luxury compared with the poor in Ethiopia...

You cite a laundry list of problems but in the grand scheme of the cursed Americas lot in life is far better than most and worse than a few.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Jag on June 03, 2013, 12:51:28 PM
If America is where you live and experience difficulties, it doesn't really matter to you if things are worse elsewhere. The problem doesn't shrink in reality just because we have better medical facilities, if those services remain out of your reach. True suffering, as you called it, is still a relative thing. The worst pain I've experienced remains the worst pain I've experienced, even though I understand subjectively that being burned in a fire would be much more painful. The fact that others have bigger challenges in meeting their daily needs does not diminish the difficulties of being poor in America if America is where you are being poor.

I realize that we have it very good here in many respects but I don't feel guilty for an accident of birth.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: epidemic on June 03, 2013, 02:53:12 PM
If America is where you live and experience difficulties, it doesn't really matter to you if things are worse elsewhere. The problem doesn't shrink in reality just because we have better medical facilities, if those services remain out of your reach. True suffering, as you called it, is still a relative thing. The worst pain I've experienced remains the worst pain I've experienced, even though I understand subjectively that being burned in a fire would be much more painful. The fact that others have bigger challenges in meeting their daily needs does not diminish the difficulties of being poor in America if America is where you are being poor.

I realize that we have it very good here in many respects but I don't feel guilty for an accident of birth.

No but it deminishes the cursed nature of things.   Because to be cursed you have to show how it is worse than other things.  America thus far is blessed by virtually any measure against the collective experience of humanity.

On a personal level you may feel something is the worst pain, but when you find yourself complaining that daddy took your lamborgini and american express away it helps to put your problems in scale with the rest of the world.  Personally I find it takes the edge off of some of my complaints in life when I put things in perspective.

If we are cursed it is about the best level of being cursed.  Lott as the story goes was cursed.  you could say the people killed by the twister were cursed.  But america is as a whole blessed. 

We may forget some people along the way but the vast majority of people in america have the opportunity to achieve at least a level that is better than 90% of the worlds experience.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 03, 2013, 03:22:33 PM
If we are cursed it is about the best level of being cursed.....
We may forget some people along the way but the vast majority of people in america have the opportunity to achieve at least a level that is better than 90% of the worlds experience.

QFT
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Jag on June 03, 2013, 03:54:30 PM
If America is where you live and experience difficulties, it doesn't really matter to you if things are worse elsewhere. The problem doesn't shrink in reality just because we have better medical facilities, if those services remain out of your reach. True suffering, as you called it, is still a relative thing. The worst pain I've experienced remains the worst pain I've experienced, even though I understand subjectively that being burned in a fire would be much more painful. The fact that others have bigger challenges in meeting their daily needs does not diminish the difficulties of being poor in America if America is where you are being poor.

I realize that we have it very good here in many respects but I don't feel guilty for an accident of birth.

No but it deminishes the cursed nature of things.   Because to be cursed you have to show how it is worse than other things.  America thus far is blessed by virtually any measure against the collective experience of humanity.

On a personal level you may feel something is the worst pain, but when you find yourself complaining that daddy took your lamborgini and american express away it helps to put your problems in scale with the rest of the world.  Personally I find it takes the edge off of some of my complaints in life when I put things in perspective.

If we are cursed it is about the best level of being cursed.  Lott as the story goes was cursed.  you could say the people killed by the twister were cursed.  But america is as a whole blessed. 

We may forget some people along the way but the vast majority of people in america have the opportunity to achieve at least a level that is better than 90% of the worlds experience.

Apologies then - I misunderstood your point to be "Americans are spoiled" rather than "Americans are not cursed".
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: epidemic on June 03, 2013, 10:14:36 PM
Yes ~But spoiled again is too strong.  All first worlders are "spoiled."

But virtually anyone who is offered a nice life will take it.
 I think the term spoiled is prejudicial as well as suggesting
Americans are exclusively subject to wanting a good life. 

I also believe people are generally myopic when considering their
Lot in life.  When you have lived a charmed life the problems
You experience seem bad.  It is not caused by being spoiled
It is caused by human nature
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 04, 2013, 08:42:22 AM
I wish for poverty to be abolished in every nation.  It's not right no matter where you live.  If America led the way it would be a great Honor.  I have this feeling that it is going to be the son of the Late Princess Diana.  I really see him being the greatest leader of all times because of who his mother is and the nontraditional manner in which she raised him.

Epidemic you have a good point.  Poor Americans are better off than poor Ethiopians and many other third world countries but that still doesn't make it right.  I like that expression "rising waters raises all ships". 

I'm also not sure if they are stacked up in ghettos where elementary age children are dodging bullets, or a school full of elementary children is shot down by a violent gunman.  I'm thinking that we may have more material things and access to food but the violence in this country is not a concern for the Ethiopian child.  I'm going to go check it out because I'm not sure. I do know there is violence in third world countries so I'm thinking I'm probably wrong.  Something is wrong with my search engine this morning. If I find out otherwise my apologies in advance.  Do they deal with drug addicted parents.  Fathers in prison selling drugs so they can live the "American Dream" the only way they know.  If their only concern is food and shelter we could easily help with that if Americans earned what they should, IMO.

Are we responsible for the world?  Sometimes I think we are and sometimes I think we need to get our own crap sorted out before we can properly help other countries, for no other reason than it's the right thing to do; no oil necessary.

Poverty reeks havoc in every country.  Losing a child to gun violence is just as sad as hunger, that is my overall point, please forgive the gibberish above.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Jag on June 04, 2013, 08:56:55 AM
... and sometimes I think we need to get our own crap sorted out before we can properly help other countries, for no other reason than it's the right thing to do...

THIS is a significant part of what I struggle with.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: epidemic on June 04, 2013, 12:11:19 PM
I wish for poverty to be abolished in every nation.  It's not right no matter where you live.  If America led the way it would be a great Honor.  I have this feeling that it is going to be the son of the Late Princess Diana.  I really see him being the greatest leader of all times because of who his mother is and the nontraditional manner in which she raised him.

Epidemic you have a good point.  Poor Americans are better off than poor Ethiopians and many other third world countries but that still doesn't make it right.  I like that expression "rising waters raises all ships". 

I'm also not sure if they are stacked up in ghettos where elementary age children are dodging bullets, or a school full of elementary children is shot down by a violent gunman.  I'm thinking that we may have more material things and access to food but the violence in this country is not a concern for the Ethiopian child.  I'm going to go check it out because I'm not sure. I do know there is violence in third world countries so I'm thinking I'm probably wrong.  Something is wrong with my search engine this morning. If I find out otherwise my apologies in advance.  Do they deal with drug addicted parents.  Fathers in prison selling drugs so they can live the "American Dream" the only way they know.  If their only concern is food and shelter we could easily help with that if Americans earned what they should, IMO.

Are we responsible for the world?  Sometimes I think we are and sometimes I think we need to get our own crap sorted out before we can properly help other countries, for no other reason than it's the right thing to do; no oil necessary.

Poverty reeks havoc in every country.  Losing a child to gun violence is just as sad as hunger, that is my overall point, please forgive the gibberish above.


Again there are horrors in America, Poverty, crime, bad parents,  But again using the metric of overall quality of life per capita, we are pretty lucky. 

Oil is responsible for virtually all humans lots in life directly or indirectly.  It is the driving force that got us to where we could consider wind farms, and solar pannels. 

Were it never to have existed our population would be 1/10th of what it is today.  Families would starve and die in the wilderness when crops failed, weather was too extreme.  The whole world would be just varying shades of the third world.


I have thought about the luxuries i have...   do I need cable,  I could support a family of 5 in some third world country for that.  Do I need that new computer that is another family of 5 I could support for a year.  Do my kids need such a big christmas I could suppliment a village through hard times for that much money:)

But then I think of it this way.  Why does that poverty stricken family have 5 kids in a drought stricken region with no prospects for improvement.   If I feed them am I just creating more of a problem when those 5 little angels grow up to be 5 Breeders with 5 kids a piece that can not afford in a drought stricken area with no prospects.

Is it better to have 5 kids starve than 25 kids starve when those kids have kids.  does my donation keep them from moving to more fertile grounds where prospects are better?

But I digress.   

No america is not cursed:)
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Nam on June 04, 2013, 11:17:02 PM
Perhaps you should check your kindness skills they are very weak. ;)  Do you care anything at all about making this world better?

I'm generally not a nice person. And most here have known that about me since I joined the old forum in 2007. I'm not going to pretend to be something I'm not. I am who I am.

And to your question: I find it irrelevant in point of my attitude.

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I scored very high on the reading comprehension part of my accuplacer test.

Also irrelevant.

Quote
You did insult Anfauglir's post.

No, I was insulting you by being sarcastic about the length of his post (which I read in it's entirety and found to be somewhat long-winded in its overall deliver <-- that is an insult to his post, not him), and your short attention span based on comments made by you previously in not actually reading what people write in totality.

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The funny part is you don't even realize it.

You're an idiot.

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Maybe it's because you're blinded by your cruelty. I dunno.

first i'm "mean" and now i'm "cruel"?

Quote
I thought it was like a very long winding road.  It wore me out just looking at it.  You said it was too long and I agreed by giving you a thumbs up.

Look closer.

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I realized you were insulting me too and I gave you the thumbs up anyway because that's how I roll.

Bullshit.

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I'm nice.

no, you're not. a nice person doesn't whine, bitch, moan, blame others for what they say and "us" not understanding you. or group all of one group together and blame them as a whole for transgressions at what they feel is directly implied or literal toward them.

if anything: you're meaner than i am.

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It had nothing to do with a lack of comprehension.

If you say so.

-Nam
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 05, 2013, 06:45:03 AM
Nam I am done with this petty conversation.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Nam on June 05, 2013, 04:36:23 PM
Nam I am done with this petty conversation.

I doubt it.

-Nam
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Mrjason on June 06, 2013, 04:06:59 AM
I wish for poverty to be abolished in every nation.  It's not right no matter where you live.  <snip>  I have this feeling that it is going to be the son of the Late Princess Diana.  I really see him being the greatest leader of all times because of who his mother is and the nontraditional manner in which she raised him.

You have to be joking? An unelected head of state brought up in an extremely privileged environment surrounded by sycophants is going to really give a toss about the common person?
Besides that the monarchy has no real power, that lies with the executive i.e. parliament. Another bunch of people brought up in an extremely privileged environment surrounded by sycophants...
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 06, 2013, 05:11:02 AM
I wish for poverty to be abolished in every nation.  It's not right no matter where you live.  <snip>  I have this feeling that it is going to be the son of the Late Princess Diana.  I really see him being the greatest leader of all times because of who his mother is and the nontraditional manner in which she raised him.

You have to be joking? An unelected head of state brought up in an extremely privileged environment surrounded by sycophants is going to really give a toss about the common person?
Besides that the monarchy has no real power, that lies with the executive i.e. parliament. Another bunch of people brought up in an extremely privileged environment surrounded by sycophants...

I call it wishful thinking. lol 
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Mrjason on June 06, 2013, 05:23:44 AM
I call it wishful thinking. lol

It'll be interesting to see what his papa does. we'll have him as head of state first.
Charles has the potential to make or break the royals.
We could be the republic of England, Wales[1] and Northern Ireland before too long...
 1. assuming the Scots do go for separation
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Graybeard on June 06, 2013, 07:15:14 AM
I wish for poverty to be abolished in every nation.
The first thing is to decide what 'poverty' means. You know what you think it means and I know what I think it means but, I suspect we don't agree on the details. The good thing is that someone has done it for us! The [wiki]Human Poverty Index[/wiki]. I suggest you look at the Human Poverty Index on sites other than Wiki as well. It is interesting because one of the things by which poverty is measured is knowledge - knowing things and being able to use that knowledge to work out the best course of action.

If you believe that God is either punishing or rewarding you, then there is no need for knowledge - you think you have enough "knowledge" - but what you have is ignorance - that is what keeps people poor.

There is another index too: this measures the percentage of people living on an income that is more than (IIRC) 20% below the national average income for that country.

This is useful because if we measure poverty by using the standard of "How does this country's average income compare to America?" we would find that, compared with Qatar and Luxembourg, all of America is in dire poverty. Do you think that Qatar and Luxembourg should provide Overseas Aid to the US?

Anyway, when you tell me what poverty is, I think we can progress.

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Are we responsible for the world?  Sometimes I think we are and sometimes I think we need to get our own crap sorted out before we can properly help other countries, for no other reason than it's the right thing to do; no oil necessary.

You seem confused here. Look what you wrote: Your question is, "Are we responsible for the world?" Your answer is either "Yes" or "get our crap sorted out and then "Yes"." So you do think that the USA is responsible for the state of everything in the world?

That does not seem a very sensible outlook, does it? How can the USA be responsible when there are sovereign governments? Do you propose "regime change"? You know, "shock and awe!"

Quote
Poverty reeks[1] havoc in every country.  Losing a child to gun violence is just as sad as hunger, that is my overall point, please forgive the gibberish above.
 1. I think you mean "wreaks". Wreaks means "works/causes" reeks = smells appallingly.

Yes, there was a lot of gibberish. How is gun violence related to starving children in Africa?

Quote
sometimes I think we need to get our own crap sorted out...

One of the things that the superstitious tell you all the time is that "Everything is terrible and surely the end of days is upon us." Let me tell you, yes there are problems; there are problems everywhere - throughout history there have been problems everywhere - in the future there will be problems everywhere.

You see, our problems are relative to the standard of live we have been brought up to expect, and this brings us back to poverty. Poverty is but one of our problems. Poverty is relative.

To the African perhaps the problem is walking 5 miles for drinking water; for you it might be losing you car keys.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Nam on June 06, 2013, 07:22:39 PM
I wish for poverty to be abolished in every nation.  It's not right no matter where you live.  <snip>  I have this feeling that it is going to be the son of the Late Princess Diana.  I really see him being the greatest leader of all times because of who his mother is and the nontraditional manner in which she raised him.

You have to be joking? An unelected head of state brought up in an extremely privileged environment surrounded by sycophants is going to really give a toss about the common person?
Besides that the monarchy has no real power, that lies with the executive i.e. parliament. Another bunch of people brought up in an extremely privileged environment surrounded by sycophants...

I call it wishful thinking. lol 

"We" call it: you not knowing what you're talking about. <-- that's reality, you're living in fantasy.

If you want fantasy, go to the Magic Kingdom.

-Nam
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Astreja on June 07, 2013, 12:29:31 AM
If {the Ethiopians'} only concern is food and shelter we could easily help with that if Americans earned what they should, IMO.

In theory, yes we could.  However, the logistics of delivering resources to needy populations sometimes make it a futile exercise.  All too often, particularly in politically unstable regions or regions with rival tribes, it's not uncommon for aid workers to be held for ransom or for shipments of food to be hijacked.  Some of it gets through.  A lot of it doesn't.  I wish there was some way to just teleport the supplies to the people who need them.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 07, 2013, 06:46:03 AM
Are we responsible for the world?  Sometimes I think we are and sometimes I think we need to get our own crap sorted out before we can properly help other countries, for no other reason than it's the right thing to do; no oil necessary.

You seem confused here. Look what you wrote: Your question is, "Are we responsible for the world?" Your answer is either "Yes" or "get our crap sorted out and then "Yes"." So you do think that the USA is responsible for the state of everything in the world?

That does not seem a very sensible outlook, does it? How can the USA be responsible when there are sovereign governments? Do you propose "regime change"? You know, "shock and awe!"

How is gun violence related to starving children in Africa?

Yes it does confuse me Graybeard.  My heart will not allow for me to only care about Americans.  I do think countries are responsible for each other in the same way that individuals are.  If poverty, as you defined it being living on less than 20% of the average national income, is abolished in every country; every country will prosper from it.  I don't mean to start wars; I hate violence.  I believe in leading by example.  Making our lifestyle something that looks so good that other countries will follow.  I don't think any nation should be force fed!

Gun violence is related to American poverty not African hunger. 

Quote
Junebug-sometimes I think we need to get our own crap sorted out...


One of the things that the superstitious tell you all the time is that "Everything is terrible and surely the end of days is upon us." Let me tell you, yes there are problems; there are problems everywhere - throughout history there have been problems everywhere - in the future there will be problems everywhere.

You see, our problems are relative to the standard of live we have been brought up to expect, and this brings us back to poverty. Poverty is but one of our problems. Poverty is relative.

To the African perhaps the problem is walking 5 miles for drinking water; for you it might be losing you car keys.

I say the same thing to the "prophets".  I totally agree with you there.  I think if there is an end of days it will be man made.

What is it with the car keys?  I wish that was my only problem.  At this point I think health care is a much bigger worry for me.  My son is using my car.  If he loses my keys I'll kick his butt and pay about $100 for new ones. 

Your last statement is confusing.  You pointed out that there are many Americans living below poverty levels.  Do you really think that car keys is their only worry?

Thanks for correcting my spelling. ;)

Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 07, 2013, 06:50:51 AM
If {the Ethiopians'} only concern is food and shelter we could easily help with that if Americans earned what they should, IMO.

  I wish there was some way to just teleport the supplies to the people who need them.

Amen Goddess.  That was very well spoken.  I was hoping you'd come back to the conversation.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 07, 2013, 06:59:40 AM

"We" call it: you not knowing what you're talking about. <-- that's reality, you're living in fantasy.

If you want fantasy, go to the Magic Kingdom.

-Nam

It's HOPE Nam.  Where do you find HOPE?  I'm sure there are things you HOPE for. I've asked you before and I don't remember an answer, Do you want the world to be better?  If you do we are the same, If you don't, oh my! :o
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: epidemic on June 07, 2013, 07:35:45 AM
Rising tide raises all ships.  But some ships are used by pirates, and some are used for humanitarian aid.  Not all ships are created equal.

giving money and aid to some areas will simply result in a rising population of impoverished people suffering.

I don't think I could stick to my guns if there were a suffering / starving person right in front of me but sometimes a reduction in population is a good thing for overall health of the herd.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 07, 2013, 02:58:57 PM
In the US we really don't understand global poverty and why starvation happens. It is clear from comments like "feeding people just encourages them to have too many children and we need to thin down the herd".

If having enough food and a social safety net led to people having more kids, the largest families in the world would be in Scandinavia, not the third world. And the people who need to "thin down" are those of us in the wealthy countries sucking the world dry of resources for non-essentials that we see on advertised on tv. The world's poor make a pretty small carbon foot print.

Poverty is to a great extent the norm, geographically and historically. Most people survive on the edge, with just enough to get by and be comfortable most of the time. People on the edge have a few more children than they can care for, because they know that a few will die as infants. The ones that remain begin working and earning their keep while still small. When they grow up, they will contribute to the family and support the old folks. It makes perfect sense for poor people to have large numbers of children.

Most people (except deluded lotto-playing Americans) realize that they will never be rich, but they want more than just basic survival. If we in the wealthy countries want poor folks around the world to have fewer kids, we need to help these families have basic health care and sanitation so their kids don't die, and more safety and stability in their lives so their governments can provide stuff like education and income support for the elderly. 

Famine, that is, starvation to the point of death, on the other hand is geographically and historically unusual. People have generally figured out the basics of how to grow or obtain food, how to store food for hard times and what to do when supplies run low. When people do not have access to enough food to sustain life, it is because several things have gone very wrong at the same time, and it is beyond the ability of local people to fix.

Nowadays, famine is pretty much created and made worse by human beings, usually because there is a war and one group wants to starve out another. We know months, or even years, in advance that a famine is going to hit a particular group in a certain area. The early signs are clear: drought conditions and crop failures,  people begin selling off their food animals, and eventually even pregnant goats and sheep go to market; people being eating their emergency stored grain and eventually even eat their seed grain.

By the time people are packing up and leaving their villages looking for food, the famine conditions have been in place for a long time. Add in a civil war, where people are strategically shooting at the farmers so they can't even plant their crops in the correct season to catch what rainfall there is, and you end up with a famine a la Darfur/Sudan. And you get refugees walking miles to feeding centers and news photos of desperate mothers holding babies that look like stick figures.

Finally, there is always food available for people with money, even in famine-stricken areas. The problem is almost never an absolute lack of food. It is the inability of poor people to afford the food (sometimes very expensive and imported) when they run low on supplies. I have lived in really poor places and, although I lost weight and got sick, I was never in danger of starving. Because I had a)money and b) the ability to leave before things started to get too bad.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Jag on June 07, 2013, 03:34:27 PM
In the US we really don't understand global poverty and why starvation happens. It is clear from comments like "feeding people just encourages them to have too many children and we need to thin down the herd".
I am really glad you are involved in this conversation.

Quote
If having enough food and a social safety net led to people having more kids, the largest families in the world would be in Scandinavia, not the third world. And the people who need to "thin down" are those of us in the wealthy countries sucking the world dry of resources for non-essentials that we see on advertised on tv. The world's poor make a pretty small carbon foot print.

Poverty is to a great extent the norm, geographically and historically. Most people survive on the edge, with just enough to get by and be comfortable most of the time. People on the edge have a few more children than they can care for, because they know that a few will die as infants. The ones that remain begin working and earning their keep while still small. When they grow up, they will contribute to the family and support the old folks. It makes perfect sense for poor people to have large numbers of children.
This is the kind of factual information that I want to hear. I know this is an area of ignorance for me. I can read the data, and I can have opinions, but that is not comparable to your first-hand experiences. Thank you for sharing.

On the issue of poor people having large families, this is why I have such mixed feelings about programs that provide food only. I understand that there are often huge barriers to getting the food directly to the people it is intended to help. Military intervention in food drops is an appalling necessity all too often. But without some means of eventually allowing the population to provide or procure food (I know that source and destination are often unrelated) what is the long term solution? I can't see the next step and I absolutely can't say "just let them starve" either. There are cultural obstacles in addition to practical ones and the trees obstructing my view of the forest get very, very big.

It's hard to keep my emotions out of the way. The only solutions come at a high cost, but the alternative is there is no alternative that can be made to work. That's the reality and no one promised it would be pretty. Baby steps are so small, but at least they're steps.

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Most people (except deluded lotto-playing Americans) realize that they will never be rich, but they want more than just basic survival. If we in the wealthy countries want poor folks around the world to have fewer kids, we need to help these families have basic health care and sanitation so their kids don't die, and more safety and stability in their lives so their governments can provide stuff like education and income support for the elderly. 

Famine, that is, starvation to the point of death, on the other hand is geographically and historically unusual. People have generally figured out the basics of how to grow or obtain food, how to store food for hard times and what to do when supplies run low. When people do not have access to enough food to sustain life, it is because several things have gone very wrong at the same time, and it is beyond the ability of local people to fix.

Nowadays, famine is pretty much created and made worse by human beings, usually because there is a war and one group wants to starve out another. We know months, or even years, in advance that a famine is going to hit a particular group in a certain area. The early signs are clear: drought conditions and crop failures,  people begin selling off their food animals, and eventually even pregnant goats and sheep go to market; people being eating their emergency stored grain and eventually even eat their seed grain.

By the time people are packing up and leaving their villages looking for food, the famine conditions have been in place for a long time. Add in a civil war, where people are strategically shooting at the farmers so they can't even plant their crops in the correct season to catch what rainfall there is, and you end up with a famine a la Darfur/Sudan. And you get refugees walking miles to feeding centers and news photos of desperate mothers holding babies that look like stick figures.

That's a grim picture that I need to learn to face directly. Allowing my discomfort to rule my response is not helpful in any way to anyone.

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Finally, there is always food available for people with money, even in famine-stricken areas. The problem is almost never an absolute lack of food. It is the inability of poor people to afford the food (sometimes very expensive and imported) when they run low on supplies. I have lived in really poor places and, although I lost weight and got sick, I was never in danger of starving. Because I had a)money and b) the ability to leave before things started to get too bad.

This was hard to read, but I do thank you. For whatever the reason this put things in perspective. I need to pick one thing and focus on that one thing. The problem is huge and I am finite - focused effort will have a better ROI than smaller bits scattered about willy-nilly. My backside may not have been your target but I accepted the swat anyway - turns out I might have needed it.

Damn you're good.  ;)
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 07, 2013, 03:48:30 PM
Thanks for reading and commenting. It is counterintuitive, but sending food aid is not the best thing to do when people are on the verge of famine. Flooding a region with imported food disrupts the local markets and just feeds corruption.[1] What people need is money to buy the food that is already there, and stable peaceful conditions so they can continue to plant crops or raise their animals.

I do recommend that people send emergency aid (like money to Shelterbox) when there is a natural disaster like an earthquake. Sending a little money is almost always better than sending actual goods like medicine, food or clothes. That way the relief people can buy locally what they need, stimulating the legitimate economy instead of creating weird parallel markets.
 1. I lived with a lower-middle class family and was served USAID wheat cereal that clearly said "Not for resale" on the bag. When I asked where it came from, they said they had bought it in the market. :o
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Nam on June 07, 2013, 10:55:04 PM
It's HOPE Nam.  Where do you find HOPE?  I'm sure there are things you HOPE for. I've asked you before and I don't remember an answer, Do you want the world to be better?  If you do we are the same, If you don't, oh my! :o

Hope is an expectation of something that a person wants to happen. It isn't reality. It's a dream, wishful thinking: a fantasy.

Of course we all hope for things but that doesn't make it a reality. Your definition of "hope" seems to be: I say it's going to happen therefore it is because Biblegod will make it so. That's fantasy.

-Nam
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 08, 2013, 06:18:31 AM
It's HOPE Nam.  Where do you find HOPE?  I'm sure there are things you HOPE for. I've asked you before and I don't remember an answer, Do you want the world to be better?  If you do we are the same, If you don't, oh my! :o

Hope is an expectation of something that a person wants o happen. It isn't reality. It's a dream, wishful thinking: a fantasy.

Of course we all hope for things but that doesn't make it a reality. Your definition of "hope" seems to be: I say it's going to happen therefore it is because Biblegod will make it so. That's fantasy.

-Nam

And just where did I say that?  My hope is in mankind.  I have valid reasons for it. I also actively do my part to make it happen.  I raised my son to make it happen along with many other parents.  I don't see that as fantasy but a possibility.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Nam on June 08, 2013, 06:46:50 PM
It's HOPE Nam.  Where do you find HOPE?  I'm sure there are things you HOPE for. I've asked you before and I don't remember an answer, Do you want the world to be better?  If you do we are the same, If you don't, oh my! :o

Hope is an expectation of something that a person wants o happen. It isn't reality. It's a dream, wishful thinking: a fantasy.

Of course we all hope for things but that doesn't make it a reality. Your definition of "hope" seems to be: I say it's going to happen therefore it is because Biblegod will make it so. That's fantasy.

-Nam

And just where did I say that?  My hope is in mankind.  I have valid reasons for it. I also actively do my part to make it happen.  I raised my son to make it happen along with many other parents.  I don't see that as fantasy but a possibility.

You really need to learn how to read. I never said you said that I said you seem to be saying that.

Secondly, "possibilities" are also fantasies. Do some fantasies come true? Sure but only when reality sets in.

-Nam
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Graybeard on June 08, 2013, 07:31:57 PM
You pointed out that there are many Americans living below poverty levels. 
I think you have little idea how difficult it is aiding foreign countries. If it were easy, there would be little poverty.

However, it is best to start closer to home. Can you suggest three laws or policies you would implement to alleviate poverty in the US? Please include cost estimates and suggest where that money might come from?
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 09, 2013, 06:54:51 AM
It's HOPE Nam.  Where do you find HOPE?  I'm sure there are things you HOPE for. I've asked you before and I don't remember an answer, Do you want the world to be better?  If you do we are the same, If you don't, oh my! :o

Hope is an expectation of something that a person wants o happen. It isn't reality. It's a dream, wishful thinking: a fantasy.



Of course we all hope for things but that doesn't make it a reality. Your definition of "hope" seems to be: I say it's going to happen therefore it is because Biblegod will make it so. That's fantasy.

-Nam

And just where did I say that?  My hope is in mankind.  I have valid reasons for it. I also actively do my part to make it happen.  I raised my son to make it happen along with many other parents.  I don't see that as fantasy but a possibility.

You really need to learn how to read. I never said you said that I said you seem to be saying that.

Secondly, "possibilities" are also fantasies. Do some fantasies come true? Sure but only when reality sets in.

-Nam

I'm asking you where did I seem to say anything like that.  My stand from the beginning of my membership here is that the human race is responsible for it's own actions.  You're having fantasies if you think I have even implied such a notion.

Hopes and dreams do come true but you have to put in the work. 

I can tell by your attitude you don't care about the world you live in.  Probably a bad childhood or something.

If people didn't have hope then they wouldn't fight for change.  That is reality.  My fantasy is making  out with CharlizeTheron on an Australian beach for a week.

See slaves hoped for freedom and got it.  I hoped for love and found it.  All through out history hope has been a force of inspiration.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 09, 2013, 08:11:04 AM
You pointed out that there are many Americans living below poverty levels. 
I think you have little idea how difficult it is aiding foreign countries. If it were easy, there would be little poverty.

However, it is best to start closer to home. Can you suggest three laws or policies you would implement to alleviate poverty in the US? Please include cost estimates and suggest where that money might come from?

No Graybeard I am fully aware of the difficulties.

 I am no politician but I'll do my best.

I would raise minimum wage.  I would calculate a fair profit to wage percentage.  The rich will pay for this.

Social Services will be aimed at bettering lives not enabling. I'd pay for it by legalizing marijuana.  The war on drugs will be institutions specializing in rehabilitation and education.

I will create jobs by investing in clean energy. 

I can't leave out education.  All schools get the same amount of money and the best education is available to all neiborhoods. 

I can't leave out health care.   I would find a away to make it accessible to all citizens.  I mean the best care for all.

Now may I please have your take.  I'm sure you're much better at specifics than I am.  I do respect your opinion.  You seem very intelligent to me.
I know you want specifics in cost.  I am not a professional politician but if I had an office with people working for me we would make it happen.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Nam on June 10, 2013, 10:15:42 PM
I'm asking you where did I seem to say anything like that.

Everything you spew on here says that to me.

Quote
My stand from the beginning of my membership here is that the human race is responsible for it's own actions.

Not that i've read by you. it's always their actions rather than themselves: i.e. too greedy[1] or some other nonsense. you dedicated pages of a topic espousing such views. you don't speak about people but inanimate objects as to the ills of the world and solely based on your viewpoint of the "true reality" in the world.

Quote
You're having fantasies if you think I have even implied such a notion.

Not my fantasies.

Quote
Hopes and dreams do come true but you have to put in the work.

Again: reality isn't "hope" or "dreams".

Quote
I can tell by your attitude you don't care about the world you live in.

you don't know the world i live in.

Quote
Probably a bad childhood or something.

Idiotic.

Quote
If people didn't have hope then they wouldn't fight for change.

Bullshit.

 
Quote
That is reality.

No it's not.

Quote
My fantasy is making  out with CharlizeTheron on an Australian beach for a week.

Good luck with that fantasy.

Quote
See slaves hoped for freedom and got it.

What slaves? You think slaves no longer exist in the world. Now THAT is a fantasy.

Quote
I hoped for love and found it.

Again: not a reality. finding someone to love is a realty, hoping for it is not.

Quote
All through out history hope has been a force of inspiration.

Inspiration is not a reality.

-Nam
 1. action; thing
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 11, 2013, 04:08:55 AM
Nam I'm sorry you have no hope.  I wish I could change that for you.  I'm getting the feeling that you have been hurt badly.  If that is true I wish I could make it go away but only you can do that.  Regardless of how you feel about my hope I will cling to every shred until the day they lay my body down.

The statements are there you just missed it.  As far as greed goes it is controlled by us humans.  When greed is allowed to get out of control society does suffer the consequences. 

I know I could have done a better job communicating in the Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing thread but I'm over it now I wish you would let it go.  I'm trying very hard to get better. 

Have a good day or night or both! :D
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 11, 2013, 10:21:43 AM
I agree with Junebug here about things like raising the minumum wage, making education funding more equitable, universal health care and letting up on the "drug war" as ways to alleviate poverty in the US.

We are spending so much on the "drug war", including incarceration costs, that we could probably finance the whole shebang with that alone. (Don't even get me started on the billions wasted on the "war of terror", as Borat called it.)

I have to take one issue with financing social services by legalizing marijuana. I am in favor of legalization, because it makes good public policy sense. But not because it will generate all this cash. The only way to make a lot of money on drugs or alcohol sales is to cater to those who use to excess. It's the 20-80 rule. Moderate users-- just on weekends or at parties-- generate 20% of the profits. Addicts, binge drinkers, etc. generate 80% of the profits. We should not base social service funding on stuff that we don't want to encourage. Maybe we could pay for drug counseling with the drug profits, but no more than that.

I would also add making comprehensive sex ed and contraceptives freely available to all, beginning in middle school. Reducing unwanted/teen pregnancies and the associated social costs would go a long way towards alleviating poverty and other social ills in the US.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Nam on June 11, 2013, 09:25:03 PM
Nam I'm sorry you have no hope.

You really don't read anything anyone says, do you?

Quote
I wish I could change that for you.  I'm getting the feeling that you have been hurt badly.  If that is true I wish I could make it go away but only you can do that.  Regardless of how you feel about my hope I will cling to every shred until the day they lay my body down.

Man, you are an idiot, aren't you?

Quote
The statements are there you just missed it.  As far as greed goes it is controlled by us humans.  When greed is allowed to get out of control society does suffer the consequences.

You only dream that you know what you're talking about. Graybeard pointed out quite well how little to nothing you know.

Quote
I know I could have done a better job communicating in the Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing thread but I'm over it now I wish you would let it go.

There you go again: living in a fantasy world. Also you can't communicate better until you learn about what you think you know things about which is evident that you do not.

Quote
I'm trying very hard to get better.

Keep trying.

-Nam
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Nam on June 11, 2013, 09:35:31 PM
I agree with Junebug here about things like raising the minumum wage, making education funding more equitable, universal health care and letting up on the "drug war" as ways to alleviate poverty in the US.

Raising the minimum wage would only be effective if businesses then didn't turn around and raise their prices. Even if the average minimum wage was $20 an hour, businesses would raise their prices to keep the "poor" poor.

I'm for raising the minimum wage if businesses didn't keep raising their prices afterward. But then they are the ones paying the wage and have to to make a profit.

Quote
We are spending so much on the "drug war", including incarceration costs, that we could probably finance the whole shebang with that alone. (Don't even get me started on the billions wasted on the "war of terror", as Borat called it.)

Some say if you legalize all illegal drugs it'd create more problems in enforcement. Could be true; who knows?

Quote
I would also add making comprehensive sex ed and contraceptives freely available to all, beginning in middle school. Reducing unwanted/teen pregnancies and the associated social costs would go a long way towards alleviating poverty and other social ills in the US.

Perhaps but if you got rid of the social ills what would people complain about?

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 12, 2013, 05:38:47 AM
Nam you bring me closer to God.IMO. :laugh:

Thanks you're the best.

Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 12, 2013, 06:36:59 AM
I agree with Junebug here about things like raising the minumum wage, making education funding more equitable, universal health care and letting up on the "drug war" as ways to alleviate poverty in the US.

We are spending so much on the "drug war", including incarceration costs, that we could probably finance the whole shebang with that alone. (Don't even get me started on the billions wasted on the "war of terror", as Borat called it.)

I have to take one issue with financing social services by legalizing marijuana. I am in favor of legalization, because it makes good public policy sense. But not because it will generate all this cash. The only way to make a lot of money on drugs or alcohol sales is to cater to those who use to excess. It's the 20-80 rule. Moderate users-- just on weekends or at parties-- generate 20% of the profits. Addicts, binge drinkers, etc. generate 80% of the profits. We should not base social service funding on stuff that we don't want to encourage. Maybe we could pay for drug counseling with the drug profits, but no more than that.

I would also add making comprehensive sex ed and contraceptives freely available to all, beginning in middle school. Reducing unwanted/teen pregnancies and the associated social costs would go a long way towards alleviating poverty and other social ills in the US.

If you use California as an example the Pot Industry there is generating lots of money.  If I remember correctly 2 billion a year.  I'm running on MB until the 23rd, sorry.  Once the criminal aspect is removed I don't see any thing wrong with using that money to lift the poor out of poverty.  The legality of pot will automatically put a lot of people to work growing the stuff.  I saw a documentary that stated George Washington and Ben Franklin grew pot and sold it to England and France to make clothes and stuff.  It was called hemp then.  You can still find hemp jewelry at flea markets and head shops.   The show was a serious documentary called Drugs Inc. or Marijuana in the US, something like that.  I think that with legal marijuana, a stronger income, family planning and higher self-esteem, the interest in harder drugs would decline; crime would decline. 

Nam to address your concerns about raising prices.  That's why I stated the need for a profit to wage ratio.  Any increase in price means applying the same increase to wages.   Smaller amounts for the same price will also not be allowed.  I liked 5 lb. bags of sugar not 4.

 
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: naemhni on June 12, 2013, 07:11:57 AM
If you use California as an example the Pot Industry there is generating lots of money.  If I remember correctly 2 billion a year.  I'm running on MB until the 23rd, sorry.  Once the criminal aspect is removed I don't see any thing wrong with using that money to lift the poor out of poverty.  The legality of pot will automatically put a lot of people to work growing the stuff.  I saw a documentary that stated George Washington and Ben Franklin grew pot and sold it to England and France to make clothes and stuff.  It was called hemp then.

Just to clarify a bit, here: hemp is not the same plant as marijuana.  It's closely related, but it differs in a number of ways, probably the most important one being that hemp has only about 1% or so of the THC content of marijuana.  Even if growing hemp were legal in this country, it's not likely that many people would smoke it... to get high, you'd have to smoke at least several dozen times the amount of marijuana you'd need to smoke for the same effect, and not many people would want to have to deal with that.  Especially since it's not like actual marijuana is difficult to find or anything.  Hell, these days, you can even buy it on the Internet without even having to leave the house.

Quote
You can still find hemp jewelry at flea markets and head shops.   The show was a serious documentary called Drugs Inc. or Marijuana in the US, something like that.  I think that with legal marijuana, a stronger income, family planning and higher self-esteem, the interest in harder drugs would decline; crime would decline.

I'm not clear on the details because I haven't read about this in a while, but I seem to recall that one of the reasons that hemp was outlawed in this country was that other industries lobbied so hard to have it banned due to its being such a wildly useful plant that it posed a serious threat to other industries, such as the papermaking industry.  (The United States Constitution was written on hemp paper.

The case against legalization of marijuana is at least somewhat arguable.  I think it should be legalized, but I can understand why some people don't agree.  However, there is no legitimate case whatsoever for the prohibition of hemp.  We really do need to legalize it and start doing research with it.  Its usefulness for clothing, papermaking, and even other industries such as feeding farm animals and developing alternative energy are all too important for us to be forbidding research into it just because it's related to marijuana.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: screwtape on June 12, 2013, 08:41:41 AM
Raising the minimum wage would only be effective if businesses then didn't turn around and raise their prices.

This is incorrect.  Businesses do not set prices.  The market sets the price.  That is fairly straight forward economics which every manufacturer and business knows.  The formula is Price - Cost = Profit.  Not Price = cost + profit.  So the only way to increase profit is to drive down costs. 

Right now businesses, like Walmart, are making grotesque profit on the backs of their works and taxpayers. The average Walmart costs taxpayers about a million dollars a year to subsidize their workers.[1]  So in the case of Walmart, raising the minimum wage would really be a tax reduction for the rest of us.

Raising the minimum wage may hurt their bottom line, which will affect their sharholders' returns.  But the market determines the price.
 1. http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/06/07/2120711/walmarts-low-wages-cost-taxpayers-millions-each-year/ (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/06/07/2120711/walmarts-low-wages-cost-taxpayers-millions-each-year/)
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Jag on June 12, 2013, 10:46:00 AM

I'm not clear on the details because I haven't read about this in a while, but I seem to recall that one of the reasons that hemp was outlawed in this country was that other industries lobbied so hard to have it banned due to its being such a wildly useful plant that it posed a serious threat to other industries, such as the papermaking industry.  (The United States Constitution was written on hemp paper.

I remember hearing or reading that the cotton industry was a significant force in outlawing hemp. It makes perfect sense - everything that can be made with cotton can be made with hemp as well - this leads me to suspect that hemp production is probably more cost effective too.

Quote
The case against legalization of marijuana is at least somewhat arguable.  I think it should be legalized, but I can understand why some people don't agree.  However, there is no legitimate case whatsoever for the prohibition of hemp.  We really do need to legalize it and start doing research with it.  Its usefulness for clothing, papermaking, and even other industries such as feeding farm animals and developing alternative energy are all too important for us to be forbidding research into it just because it's related to marijuana.

Completely agree. This is a matter of public education - hemp and marijuana are not the same thing but most of the American public doesn't realize that.

I'm in favor of legalizing marijuana too for a lot of reasons. Medical research alone supports relaxing the current restrictions and there are a lot of economic factors that tug me that direction.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 12, 2013, 11:47:42 AM
Nowadays, non-drug hemp is still prohibited because the plants look like marijuana. What would keep pot farms from interplanting their illegal drug crop with legal hemp? You'd have to do a chemical analysis to tell the difference-- or have some volunteer light some up![1] So, the feds just keep both on the nix list to keep enforcement simple. If it looks like weed, it's illegal.

Another reason to legalize both marijuana (the drug) and hemp (a useful fiber crop).
 1. I'm sure it would be hard to find anyone willing to do that. "I was a pot head for the DEA..."
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 12, 2013, 12:12:33 PM
Raising the minimum wage would only be effective if businesses then didn't turn around and raise their prices.

This is incorrect.  Businesses do not set prices.  The market sets the price.  That is fairly straight forward economics which every manufacturer and business knows.  The formula is Price - Cost = Profit.  Not Price = cost + profit.  So the only way to increase profit is to drive down costs. 

Right now businesses, like Walmart, are making grotesque profit on the backs of their works and taxpayers. The average Walmart costs taxpayers about a million dollars a year to subsidize their workers.[1]  So in the case of Walmart, raising the minimum wage would really be a tax reduction for the rest of us.

Raising the minimum wage may hurt their bottom line, which will affect their sharholders' returns.  But the market determines the price.
 1. http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/06/07/2120711/walmarts-low-wages-cost-taxpayers-millions-each-year/ (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/06/07/2120711/walmarts-low-wages-cost-taxpayers-millions-each-year/)

True. The other fact is that raising the incomes of the poor stimulates demand, which improves the local economies.  It makes good economic sense to give poor people more money, whether it is through welfare or higher wages. Because of one simple fact: poor people spend all their incomes. Poor people don't hoard cash, stuff their money in mattresses, hide their dough overseas or launder it through fake investments to avoid taxes. 

They buy stuff, mainly consumer goods, in their own communities. They pay rent, buy food, buy clothes, buy diapers, buy beer, get their hair and nails done. That generates income for local businesses who then can hire more people, invest in infrastructure, expand and grow. This expands the tax base to pay for roads, schools, libraries, etc.

I never understand why conservatives are so reluctant to accept that low and middle income people are the backbone of the US economy. They would rather worship the rich[2] than do anything that might actually help regular people.
 2. who don't help the economy much-- they can't spend more because they already have everything, so they send their money to the Caymans to avoid taxes
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: naemhni on June 12, 2013, 12:18:05 PM
Nowadays, non-drug hemp is still prohibited because the plants look like marijuana. What would keep pot farms from interplanting their illegal drug crop with legal hemp? You'd have to do a chemical analysis to tell the difference

I doubt that that would really pose all that much of a challenge.  For one thing, I doubt that any hemp grower would want to take such a risk, and for another, testing the plants for their THC content would probably be a straightforward matter.  You can already buy THC testing kits for home use, and they're very inexpensive.  I doubt that modifying such a test for use directly on the buds of a plant, rather than on a urine stream, would pose a tremendous challenge.  (Perhaps someone here with a better knowledge of chemistry can speak better to that.)

So if that's really a concern, then fine: have a USDA inspector perform random visits on hemp farms once or twice a year, grab blossoms from a number of random plants, and test them for THC.  Problem solved.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: screwtape on June 12, 2013, 12:54:54 PM
I never understand why conservatives are so reluctant to accept that low and middle income people are the backbone of the US economy.

Either because they are rich or they are kind of stupid.

http://www.businessinsider.com/conservatism-is-the-problem-2013-6

As you can see from the way the comments, they are mostly stupid.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 12, 2013, 01:59:39 PM
I never understand why conservatives are so reluctant to accept that low and middle income people are the backbone of the US economy.

Either because they are rich or they are kind of stupid.

http://www.businessinsider.com/conservatism-is-the-problem-2013-6

As you can see from the way the comments, they are mostly stupid.

That was an awesome article--any conservative who is not just an ignorant  greedy hypocrite would agree. But, oh, wait....

Tangentially related, I read that there are tea party types who are willing to support immigration reform, but only if there is federal funding included to force immigrants to sit through patriotic values classes-- taught by tea party types. Otherwise known as "yur home culture sucks, love 'Murica or else" classes.  &)

If they thought "patriotism classes" for immigrants were worthwhile, why not be willing to pay for them out of their pockets as charity? Or wait for a private business to magically start doing it? Or offer the classes to immigrants for free, the way volunteers tutor low-income kids, register new voters, teach ESL and help immigrants fill out paperwork for free at the public library? Or is it only liberals who help immigrants for free?

So, anti-government folks don't mind taking government tax money after all. They just don't want to contribute anything to the public trough they feed from.  :P
 
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: screwtape on June 12, 2013, 02:20:43 PM
Tangentially related, I read that there are tea party types who are willing to support immigration reform, but only if there is federal funding included to force immigrants to sit through patriotic values classes-- taught by tea party types. Otherwise known as "yur home culture sucks, love 'Murica or else" classes.  &)

Here is the thing these tea tards don't seem to get:  Immigrants LOVE America.  They flipping adore it.  They don't take it for granted the way some people do.  They know what it's like to be without many of the things the tea tards take for granted. 

A close friend of mine moved here in the mid 80s.  He finally got his citizenship this last year.  He brought his own little hand held flag with him.  In the pictures of him being sworn in and receiving his certificate, he looks so happy.  You cannot make someone patriotic by making them take a test.

If anything, I think we should make natural born Americans pass the same test in order to vote.  I'd bet less than 50% of the the tea tards would pass.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: rev45 on June 12, 2013, 02:50:33 PM
If anything, I think we should make natural born Americans pass the same test in order to vote.  I'd bet less than 50% of the the tea tards would pass.
I think there would be a high percentage of tea partiers that would pass if the questions on the test were taken from info from Conservapedia. 
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 12, 2013, 02:51:26 PM
^^^I heard that. Grab a random person and ask what are the three branches of government and what their roles are, what the bill of rights is and to name any ten US presidents....

New citizens know more about US history, politics and culture than most native born folks. I have tutored immigrants for their citizenship exams and this stuff should be, but ain't well-known.

It is not easy to get US citizenship, despite what the teapartiers think. People don't go through all the hassles and interviews and tests and fees--and ignorance from the native born-- to live in a country they hate. They appreciate the opportunities we offer here, and want to contribute. The people who don't like America stay home!
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Nam on June 12, 2013, 05:24:26 PM
Just to clarify a bit, here: hemp is not the same plant as marijuana.  It's closely related, but it differs in a number of ways, probably the most important one being that hemp has only about 1% or so of the THC content of marijuana.  Even if growing hemp were legal in this country, it's not likely that many people would smoke it... to get high, you'd have to smoke at least several dozen times the amount of marijuana you'd need to smoke for the same effect, and not many people would want to have to deal with that.  Especially since it's not like actual marijuana is difficult to find or anything.  Hell, these days, you can even buy it on the Internet without even having to leave the house.

I'm not clear on the details because I haven't read about this in a while, but I seem to recall that one of the reasons that hemp was outlawed in this country was that other industries lobbied so hard to have it banned due to its being such a wildly useful plant that it posed a serious threat to other industries, such as the papermaking industry.  (The United States Constitution was written on hemp paper.

The case against legalization of marijuana is at least somewhat arguable.  I think it should be legalized, but I can understand why some people don't agree.  However, there is no legitimate case whatsoever for the prohibition of hemp.  We really do need to legalize it and start doing research with it.  Its usefulness for clothing, papermaking, and even other industries such as feeding farm animals and developing alternative energy are all too important for us to be forbidding research into it just because it's related to marijuana.

I saw in a propaganda film related to the film Reefer Madness that hemp was mainly made illegal based on its ruin of the cotton industry. But perhaps that was propaganda too.

-Nam
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Nam on June 12, 2013, 05:30:12 PM
Raising the minimum wage would only be effective if businesses then didn't turn around and raise their prices.

This is incorrect.  Businesses do not set prices.  The market sets the price.  That is fairly straight forward economics which every manufacturer and business knows.  The formula is Price - Cost = Profit.  Not Price = cost + profit.  So the only way to increase profit is to drive down costs. 

Right now businesses, like Walmart, are making grotesque profit on the backs of their works and taxpayers. The average Walmart costs taxpayers about a million dollars a year to subsidize their workers.[1]  So in the case of Walmart, raising the minimum wage would really be a tax reduction for the rest of us.

Raising the minimum wage may hurt their bottom line, which will affect their sharholders' returns.  But the market determines the price.
 1. http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/06/07/2120711/walmarts-low-wages-cost-taxpayers-millions-each-year/ (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/06/07/2120711/walmarts-low-wages-cost-taxpayers-millions-each-year/)

All I know is that every time minimum wage goes up so do the prices in everything else. Whether it's businesses doing it or the market as a whole I find irrelevant. And most[2] private companies without Unions never give raises to those who make minimum wage; only time those people get raises is when minimum wage goes up but it really doesn't effect their lives since prices tend to go up afterward.

-Nam
 2. At least in Florida
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 13, 2013, 04:46:41 AM
I really thought hemp was marijuana.  Thanks for telling me.  Possibly the male plant.  I know the female plant has the THC not the male.

Nam- that could be a vicious cycle.  Easily fixed though with smart legislation.  I don't think there is any way to narrow the gap without the billion dollar corps taking less profit.  I for one do not feel sorry for them.  They can still live very lavish lifestyles.  They will still be the most rich.   I see them getting richer simply because there is more people spending.

Yea voters and the candidates running for office should have to take that psychological profile test employers give to applicants.  Have you ever taken one?  This one part is a list of ten things ranging from having a baby to terrorist on a plane and you have to list them in order of what is good to what is not.  There are several that give 45 min. tests that ask you do you agree, strongly agree, very strongly agree or the same with disagree, to questions like, The manager asked Tim to stay and work off the clock.  It is psychological not skill based.  Well for some people they may not be crazy when they start but they damn sure are by the time they retire! :laugh: hehe
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: screwtape on June 13, 2013, 07:20:39 AM
All I know is that every time minimum wage goes up so do the prices in everything else.

You don't know that, you only think it.  Inflation is not caused by raising the minimum wage. 
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 13, 2013, 10:46:22 AM
The main thing that drives up prices is increased demand. Housing prices dropped when nobody had money, and are now creeping up again as demand picks up. The price of oil, grain and other inputs has more to do with rising prices than the minimum wage. Some things go up while others stay the same or even go down. Look at how the price of gas bounces around.

Minimum wage has not gone up very much, a dollar or two, but I have noticed the price of cereals and other products containing grain has really jumped. A box of cereal that was 2.50 a few years ago is now around 4 bucks! And cornmeal is the same. My understanding is that more grain is being used to make ethanol, which increases demand and pushes up the price.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Nam on June 13, 2013, 11:53:32 PM
All I know is that every time minimum wage goes up so do the prices in everything else.

You don't know that, you only think it.  Inflation is not caused by raising the minimum wage. 

Well I guess it's just a wild coincidence every time it happens where I live.

-Nam
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 14, 2013, 04:59:53 AM
Well, couldn't find anyone that believes America is cursed.  We are not victims of supernatural forces.  We are our own worst enemy.

I will start a new topic to continue our discussion.  I'm not sure what the title is yet but you'll know it when you see it.  Thanks every body for sharing your thoughts and knowledge with me.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: screwtape on June 14, 2013, 08:46:32 AM
Well I guess it's just a wild coincidence every time it happens where I live.

I think you are experiencing all the biases common to our species.  Give me data, Nam, not your subjective anecdotes. 
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Nam on June 15, 2013, 12:44:23 AM
Most of it is based on actual experience in Florida; rather than Nation wide. Anything I'd state could only be viewed as an opinion based on little to back it up. I do realize that bias is more on my side being a part of the relatively "poor" society I have lived in in the past and based on hearsay, and the like. However, I still tend to think there's a connection whether I have evidence of it, or not.

Call me irrational.

-Nam
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 15, 2013, 06:02:16 AM
Could it be that inflation drives up cost and also the minimum wage?  What I'm trying to say is I think prices go up first then minimum wage.  It does seem to happen simultaneously.  That's why increasing the minimum wage does nothing to eliminate poverty. You can barely get by on minimum wage.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: The Gawd on June 15, 2013, 07:30:19 AM
I remember when I was working for a little bit more than minimum wage (I was making $5 and min wage was like 4.75) as a 15 year old at Jewel/Osco and I was due my raise, management pulled me into my office and gave me my raise like a week early to $5.25. Then I realized why the following week... minimum wage had been raised to 5.25. Had they waited they would've had to give me 5.50. I never forgave those assholes for that and made sure I supplemented my wages through products.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 16, 2013, 08:11:55 AM
^A$$ holes^  My daughter-in-law worked at Bo's 6 months then they transferred her when she was due her raise and the new location never gave it either.  See you give these billion dollar corps an inch they take a mile. 
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: epidemic on June 17, 2013, 01:53:39 PM
Nam I'm sorry you have no hope.  I wish I could change that for you.  I'm getting the feeling that you have been hurt badly.  If that is true I wish I could make it go away but only you can do that.  Regardless of how you feel about my hope I will cling to every shred until the day they lay my body down.

The statements are there you just missed it.  As far as greed goes it is controlled by us humans.  When greed is allowed to get out of control society does suffer the consequences. 

I know I could have done a better job communicating in the Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing thread but I'm over it now I wish you would let it go.  I'm trying very hard to get better. 

Have a good day or night or both! :D

It is funny how maligned Greed is.  Greed is the single most important thing driving society to its current level.  Were it not for greed almost no invention would take place.  Greed and laziness drive innovation ;D.  Our current level of medicine is a direct byproduct of greed.  People did not invest in CAT scans because they would be good for society.  Absent greed we would likely we would never have left a tribal pre-bronze age society.  A world where disease, tigers and injury would take us out by 30 years old.

AS for legalizing drugs I am a super big fan of that.

I think drugs are generally bad.... but the reality is that people who are addicts perceive them as a need.  If humans perceive a need they will not be kept from the perceived need. 

As such if a law bans drugs (a perceived need) the person will still be required to acquire the drug at all costs.

This creates an economy way beyond the true value of the drugs.  The value is driven by losses and risks and the end user pays for the risks and losses.  If an addict who can not work has a 1000 dollar per week habit they will commit 1000 dollars worth of crime to pay for their need.

were drug prohibition eliminated (see alcohol prohibition) drug prices would drop to the level of other farm products like flour.  An addict could afford enough drugs to feed their habit with a 5 minute stint on the corner begging for cash.

Prohibition also creates corruption the huge money involved in drugs creates a monetary benefit for people to look the other way for graft. 

Basically I suspect if prohibition on drugs were lifted, gangs would lose a huge source of revenue, robbery, murder, and theft would drop precipitously. 

The only thing I would have government involved in was product quality, labeling, licensing and education about drugs.  I would make all drug addicts acquire a license to take their poison.  This would simply require they watch a video on the long term effects and risks of the drug and penalties for dealing to unlicensed people like minors, and a signature saying they accept the risks.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 17, 2013, 05:05:48 PM
^^^Sounds far too sensible for the current crop of policy-makers to take on.

In related news, I have a young (age 14) relative who is currently destroying his life with his propensity to smoke weed, anytime and anywhere he gets the urge. He has been suspended and then finally kicked out of school completely, been picked up by sympathetic police, been picked up by unsympathetic police, violates curfew and has lost all his non-using friends.

His parents have cut off his allowance, taken away his phone, and even make him sleep with his dad in his room to keep him from sneaking out at night. He still manages to get out and find 'friends' who will give him weed for free. One baggie had traces of harder drugs in it, so he may be facing even more trouble.

Both his parents used drugs at his age, but the zero-tolerance policies of today mean that kind of stupid youthful behavior has way worse consequences.[1]

His family is falling apart over this. They can't travel anywhere; they can't take him with them because he might hide drugs in their car or have some weed on his person in an airport. (Can you say drug-sniffing TSA dogs?) They can't leave him at home alone. (They are seriously considering handcuffing his leg to some heavy furniture so they can go to work.)

I have no answers for them; I was a social worker and I have seen this too many times. My family went through the same sh!t with my brother--my mother driving all over the neighborhood in the middle of the night looking for him.

They have investigated rehab programs and boot camps-- very expensive. I know a kid who went to one that cost 60 thou for a year! And may not even work: Another friend put her son in one and spent the kid's entire inheritance on it. The kid went out and got some drugs the very night he was released from the program......
:o :( :P
 1. The kid's dad and grandparents are all alcoholics, not that there is any genetic addiction component here or anything  &)
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Nam on June 17, 2013, 05:11:24 PM
Marijuana is supposedly non-addictive but I read that 1 in 10 long-term users do become addicted to it.

-Nam
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 17, 2013, 05:44:36 PM
Marijuana is supposedly non-addictive but I read that 1 in 10 long-term users do become addicted to it.

-Nam
Marijuana flicked the genetic addict switch in his brain and after that, all bets were off. He says he can stop using anytime, but just doesn't want to stop. Right.

That's why, at 14,  he's been kicked out of school, has lost all his real friends, has to talk to lawyers, has a police record, is facing a stint in juvie, is a near-prisoner in his home, is watching his parents' marriage fall apart, and his father has started drinking again.[1]

But he can stop anytime. Just not yet. &)
 1. I'm not saying the kid is responsible for his father's drinking or his parents' marriage, but his behavior is definitely adding unneeded stress.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Nam on June 17, 2013, 06:42:01 PM
I've never known Marijuana to be attributed to such things (unless one was selling). I think it's something, perhaps, psychological, rather than just an addiction to Marijuana. I've known a lot of losers in life (sadly, including myself) and personal issues caused more damage than any actual drug they may or may not have been addicted to.

-Nam
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: epidemic on June 20, 2013, 07:49:44 AM
Good point epidemic.  Good point.



I agree our country is in better shape than others but why settle for mediocracy when you could achieve true greatness.  My son said something the other day that made some sense.  He said I wouldn't mind being poor if everybody was.  It is the gap between the wealthy and the poor that is not necessary.  This is not the best we can do.

Your son is right but only to a point.  He wants the communist model where everyone's life sucks equally.  Personally when I see someone who succeeds or has a better life than me I aspire to it.  Hopefully I can achieve it.  I also feel happy for the person who leads a charmed life (all be it with a tinge of jealousy)

To want everyones life to suck as bad as yours is a bit selfish as well:) :)
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: screwtape on June 20, 2013, 09:45:49 AM
Personally when I see someone who succeeds or has a better life than me I aspire to it.  Hopefully I can achieve it.

Increasingly, upward class mobility is less possible in the US than in years past.

I also feel happy for the person who leads a charmed life (all be it with a tinge of jealousy)

You are happy because someone was born into wealth and had more opportunity than you?  I'm not.  I thought the US was supposed to be a meritocracy.  This is completely against that concept.  We used to have good tax policy to prevent generational wealth from accumulating and creating a permanent aristocracy.  But the GOP changed that. 

To want everyones life to suck as bad as yours is a bit selfish as well

I want everyone to have equal opportunity.  Increasingly, that is not so.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: epidemic on June 20, 2013, 10:13:30 AM
Personally when I see someone who succeeds or has a better life than me I aspire to it.  Hopefully I can achieve it.

Increasingly, upward class mobility is less possible in the US than in years past.

I also feel happy for the person who leads a charmed life (all be it with a tinge of jealousy)

You are happy because someone was born into wealth and had more opportunity than you?  I'm not.  I thought the US was supposed to be a meritocracy.  This is completely against that concept.  We used to have good tax policy to prevent generational wealth from accumulating and creating a permanent aristocracy.  But the GOP changed that. 

To want everyones life to suck as bad as yours is a bit selfish as well

I want everyone to have equal opportunity.  Increasingly, that is not so.

Increasingly upward mobility was a byproduct of the simple fact that we were the industrial center for the world after world war II.  If we have another world war that america manages to not be touched by we may well see another boom.  But I don't think it is a societal or corporate thing that causes the lack of mobility.  It is simply that we do not have the same perfect storm of america having a virutal monopoly on industry and intellectual advantage.  We have competition now.  2 billion people are now being educated in china and india, our unique postion in the world is now just one of copetition.

we also allow tremendous influx of illegal immigration in our country keeping wages depressed on the low scale hurting our unskilled laborers.




I am happy for the guy born into wealth.  Why wouldn't I be?  Dam I wish it was me but alas it was not.  I hope to leave some legacy for my children, don't you? 

But why would I wish someones dad did not leave a compfortable life for his kids with his labor?  Well the Meritorcracy you speak of never existed.  Wealth has always passed down from the last generation as it should.  Do you think our founding fathers all had paupers for children?

America is about opportunity, and it is still there.  No one is keeping you from working 70 hours a week to start a company.  Only luck, foresight, and work keeps most people from escapting mediocraty.  I am not one of the 1 percent because I was chicken with the two obvious chances I had to escape the bounds of middleclassness. 

Some people can not escape poverty, but most of them are stuck because of life choices made young and bad family/cultural priorities.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: screwtape on June 20, 2013, 11:05:12 AM
I am happy for the guy born into wealth.  Why wouldn't I be?  Dam I wish it was me but alas it was not.  I hope to leave some legacy for my children, don't you? 

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about the simply upper middle class inheritance.  I'm generally not happy about people born into wealth because I have observed 100 out of 100 of them have a gigantic sense of entitlement about it.  As they said of George W Bush, he was born on third base but thought he hit a triple.

There is quite a difference between what I would leave my offspring and what, say, Paris Hilton is going to receive.  I am a proponent of a return to a 95% inheritence tax on everything over about a million dollars.  But that is not a specific policy, so lets not quibble over the details.  Suffice it to say, I'd tax the hell out of large inheritance.  As it is now, inheritance tax applies to almost no one but the very richest families and yet they keep trying to make it smaller and smaller.  As if they think it will some day apply to them.

But why would I wish someones dad did not leave a compfortable life for his kids with his labor?

Fairness.  Equal opportunity.  To ensure we do not have a permanent aristocratic class that has the money to buy government, which we now have, in my opinion.  We are living in a second [wiki]Gilded Age[/wiki].

I could turn the question around, why would you want people to have a pile of money they did nothing to earn?

Well the Meritorcracy you speak of never existed.

That is irrelevant and not what I said.  It is an ideal.  If we want to be able to have upward mobility based on what we deserve, we need to have policy that encourages it.  But we don't.  Do you not want people to be rewarded based on merit?

Wealth has always passed down from the last generation as it should.

As it should?  Why should it?  Why should a person receive vast sums of money they did not earn?  Do you think it does those people any good to know from the moment they are aware that they will never have to work for anything?

Do you think our founding fathers all had paupers for children?

That is completely irrelevant. I have not suggested anyone's children be left paupers.

Only luck, foresight, and work keeps most people from escapting mediocraty.

That's not true.  This is an American myth.  The turth is, the field is titled against you and in favor of the rich.

Some people can not escape poverty, but most of them are stuck because of life choices made young and bad family/cultural priorities.

Also not true. Poverty has been created by "pro business" policies.  It has as much to do with education, tax policy and trade policy.  Don't forget labor laws and the general weakening of unions.  If you adjusted for inflation, etc, the minimum wage in 1968 would be equivalent to about $21/hr.[1]  People doing the same job today as they did in 1970 make about a third the pay. 

For some reason I have seen a lot of fellow americans have an attitude that someone working in a warehouse or a gas station or the grocery deserves to be poor because they think those jobs are menial or not important.  I disagree.  We still need all those jobs.  The only ones benefitting from such wage depression are the stock holders of those employers, who generally tend to be the rich.
 1. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-19/the-capitalist-s-case-for-a-15-minimum-wage.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-19/the-capitalist-s-case-for-a-15-minimum-wage.html)
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 20, 2013, 03:37:02 PM
Both epidemic and screwtape make good points. True: The US was sheltered from global competition for 50 years after WWII. True: The rest of the world is now catching up. But at the same time, US domestic policies have increasingly favored the wealthy-- who don't work-- over the poor and middle class who do.

And no, it has never been the case that "anyone who works hard can get rich". My working class students think this way, and I ask them why their parents and grandparents did not get rich. The easy answer is that life happened, and you don't get rich driving a bus, teaching kindergarden or delivering mail. You most definitely don't get rich caring for your children or elderly parents. Basically, normal families can't get rich! But you should not have to be rich to have a decent life with a level of stability.

Most people in Europe, Latin America, Asia, etc, realize this and try to have government policies, including higher taxes, so everyone can meet their basic needs,and access good education and have health care regardless of income.  We in the US are still not sure whether everyone deserves these things. We would rather have access to a gun and low tax rates (so it seems).

Productivity is the US is at record high levels. But the increased value has not gone to the workers who produced it in the form of increased wages or benefits. The increased value has gone into higher profits and higher salaries and more benefits to those at the very top.

Deregulation of industries, cutting taxes, and allowing for rich people to escape taxes, has led to defunding the education and social services that allow poor and middle class people --those without rich ancestors and big inheritances-- to have a chance at upward mobility.
 
When people complain about increased work loads, decreased hours and unpaid furloughs, enforced overtime, no raises, cuts in benefits, safety net full of holes, crappy infrastructure, they are told to be grateful to have a job at all. Because you could get laid off, and then where will you be?

And we are encouraged to blame those at the bottom, the least powerful for the situation (like illegal immigrants who do the crappiest jobs for the least money) as if the policies from the top have nothing to do with it. Unions and political organizing can help, but only if people know what the problems really are.   

Not to sound too Marxist, but there it is.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Jag on June 20, 2013, 03:45:58 PM
^^^This is an excellent post (as they always are when we're talking about this) but one line in particular caught my eye: When people complain about increased work loads, decreased hours and unpaid furloughs, enforced overtime, no raises, cuts in benefits, safety net full of holes, crappy infrastructure, they are told to be grateful to have a job at all. Because you could get laid off, and then where will you be?

Even worse is when we tell ourselves that. Because we believe it, with good f'ing reason. And yes, I'm speaking from my own experience - I remember thinking this exact thing while I was hating my deceptive boss at my last job. Getting laid off was the best thing that could have happened for my mental health (I SUCK at professional politics) but it's certainly left me with few options and no room to make a mistake.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: junebug72 on June 20, 2013, 05:13:38 PM
There really isn't anything left for me to add.  Screwtape, NoGods, Jag and epidemic have said it all.  This is what I meant when I said we bring bad things on ourselves as a nation.  We tolerate it and the rich milk it.  If i could win the lottery I would start my own business and hire all of you at $100 thousand a year.  We would change the world.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Quesi on June 20, 2013, 07:30:40 PM
Opps.  Posted in wrong thread.  My apologies. 
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: screwtape on June 21, 2013, 07:01:39 AM
a timely article in the Atlantic

 
Quote
rich kids without a college degree are 2.5 times more likely to end up rich than poor kids who do graduate from college.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/06/rip-american-dream-why-its-so-hard-for-the-poor-to-get-ahead-today/276943/
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: epidemic on June 24, 2013, 12:22:17 PM
  I suspect (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/03/10/top-5-myths-about-the-minimum-wage) the truth lies somewhere in between, minimum wage is not the answer.

I believe that most people do not earn minimum wage the article above indicates same.  most chroinically poor do not earn minimum wage.  Not even my 18 year old daughter earns it.  It is a starting wage with very few unskilled people remaining at that level for more than the first year of employment.

None the less there are some who for some reason or another are chronically stuck at minimum wages,  but if cost for employees goes up wont jobs dry up at those entry level jobs.  resulting in the most skilled filling the limited number of jobs.  Tossing out the unskilled with the bath water.  Taking our most at risk and pricing them out of the market.



Were I to try and jack up wages I would open the millions of jobs currently held by illegal aliens.  They are an artifical depression on wages.  My way of dealing with this is destinctly different from most republicans who seem to blame the aliens (I don't our lax laws were a defacto invitation to them so I don't blame them) 

I would push for amnesty but it would require a simultanious crack down on employment of illegals.  I would bankrupt companies using ICE and INS agents to go after employers who employ illegals. 

I would fine an employer 5,000 dollars a head for each illegal in their employ and each subsequent time that are caught I would double the fine.  In order to allow business to keep up with the new policy I would push for amnesty to make their current workers in their employ but from x date forward I would start crushing business.  As the new amnestied people move up the economic ladder new jobs will open at the bottom rung.  Wages at this point will seek acceptable levels for the unskilled laborers who are unskilled citizens. 

Maybe the miserable work of picking tomatos is really worth 14 dollars per hour for Americans to get off their duff and do that work.   not allowing businesses to exploit ones citizenship status to depress wages would be a step in the right direction.   PS using tomato pickers example a 100% increase in wages works out to a fractional increase in shelf price of tomatos.
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: screwtape on June 24, 2013, 02:14:16 PM
  I suspect (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/03/10/top-5-myths-about-the-minimum-wage) the truth lies somewhere in between, minimum wage is not the answer.

Breitbart?  You quoted Breitbart as a counter-example?  I give you an article from the Atlantic and you respond with a piece from a hack, partisan site known for producing manipulated and selectively edited videos (http://gawker.com/5508190/okeefe-and-breitbart-acorn-videos-severely-edited) that lie?  As if averaging the two gives an accurate picture?   

None the less there are some who for some reason or another are chronically stuck at minimum wages,  but if cost for employees goes up wont jobs dry up at those entry level jobs.  resulting in the most skilled filling the limited number of jobs.  Tossing out the unskilled with the bath water.  Taking our most at risk and pricing them out of the market.

Historically, when the minimum wage has gone up, has there been a corresponding wave of layoffs?  A following up-tick in unemployment?  If I was a betting man, I'd guess not.  Otherwise, that kind of actual data would conclusive and thrown into the faces of everyone who wants to raise minimum wage.  Instead we get wonky arguments about Earned Income Credits and whatnot, which really only make things confusing.

On the other hand, Nobel winning economist, Paul Krugman says, raise the wage.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/18/opinion/krugman-raise-that-wage.html
(note, NY Times, not a hack website)
Quote
Now, you might argue that even if the current minimum wage seems low, raising it would cost jobs. But there’s evidence on that question — lots and lots of evidence, because the minimum wage is one of the most studied issues in all of economics. U.S. experience, it turns out, offers many “natural experiments” here, in which one state raises its minimum wage while others do not. And while there are dissenters, as there always are, the great preponderance of the evidence from these natural experiments points to little if any negative effect of minimum wage increases on employment.
bold mine.  He also puts to bed Flynn's argument about the tax credit.  I'm believing the Nobel winning economist on this one.

This one too
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/16/minimum-wage-economics/?_r=0
Quote
there just isn’t any evidence that raising the minimum wage near current levels would reduce employment. And this is a really solid result, because there have been a *lot* of studies.

I'm a results guy, not an ideologue.  Try things, observe the results, then do what works.  I follow the data.

Were I to try and jack up wages I would open the millions of jobs currently held by illegal aliens.  They are an artifical depression on wages.  My way of dealing with this is destinctly different from most republicans who seem to blame the aliens (I don't our lax laws were a defacto invitation to them so I don't blame them) 

I really don't think illegal aliens are what is keeping wages down.  I think it has more to do with corporate power, the weakening of unions and labor laws over the last 50 years and the exporting of jobs to low wage countries.     

I would push for amnesty but it would require a simultanious crack down on employment of illegals.  I would bankrupt companies using ICE and INS agents to go after employers who employ illegals. 

I would revoke the citizenship of Americans (and their families) who employ them.  Then I would confiscate everything they (the former Americans) own except about $100.  Then I would deport them (the former Americans) to various Central American countries.  Good luck, bitches.


Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 24, 2013, 11:11:36 PM
^^^That is similar to my idea of auctioning off the citizenship of people in the US who aren't using theirs to illegal people who are about something. There are millions of people in the US sans papers (overstayed visas that expired, came here and could not go home for whatever reason, came here as kids and never got papers, etc) who are smart, hard-working, go-getters held back by the status issue. They either can't get good jobs or benefits, or live a fake life with bogus documents in constant fear of discovery.

And we all know plenty of US citizens who would rather sit on their butts, play video games, get high, have sex and eat chips. For their entire lives. So be it. They can do that in Russia or Mexico or Somalia much cheaper than in the US. We offer them voluntary sterilizations, and ten thou a year for life. Then send them off with the agreement that the money will continue as long as they don't come back. We sell their citizenship to folks who will use it, taking part of the ten thou from them in taxes, and part in fees from businesses that have benefited from exploiting underpaid illegal workers.

Nobody is getting anything for free, there is no "amnesty" because the people have to pay for their citizenship.  We get rid of the losers who don't want to contribute anyway, and they are selling their only valuable property, their unearned US birthright. It's capitalism. It's libertarian, even. The conservatives should love it. Win, win, win. :?
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: magicmiles on June 24, 2013, 11:13:51 PM

And we all know plenty of US citizens who would rather sit on their butts, play video games, get high, have sex and eat chips.

Simultaneously?
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: Nam on June 24, 2013, 11:19:23 PM
^that's how I'd go.

-Nam
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: nogodsforme on June 24, 2013, 11:35:12 PM

And we all know plenty of US citizens who would rather sit on their butts, play video games, get high, have sex and eat chips.

Simultaneously?
Multitasking is their only talent. Not very marketable, other than as a novelty act in certain nightclubs. Or so I hear. :?
Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: epidemic on June 25, 2013, 07:26:35 AM
I don't know Breitbart but I thought there was some truth in what he wrote.  But I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

First off there is not a large segment of society who live on minimum wage.  Many minimum wage earners are second and third incomes into houses that make much more. 

Increased expense results in lower profits (that is ok if the company chooses that route), higher prices (if the consumer is willing or can pay them) or reduced headcount (jobs for only the most skilled {likely those second income earners} leaving a segment of society unemployable [those most at risk]).  typically I do believe these problems are temporary until the market reaches it's new balance so it might be temporary pain for a greater good.

Why not make minimum wage high enough that you can support a house (with spouse and 2 kids) in NYC with 1 income.    Or perhaps just a little more so they can be comfortable with a few luxuries.

Or should we use the illegal immigrant model with 6 families in a house sharing expenses and assigning a few members for daycare?  BTW that model still leaves money to send back home.

Title: Re: Is America Cursed?
Post by: screwtape on June 25, 2013, 09:05:05 AM
I don't know Breitbart

Breitbart was a professional right-wing liar before he died.  He was like a low-rent version of Hannity or Glenn "Dumbest Dumbfuck in Dumbfuckistan" Beck.  When he died his organization went into complete disarray and is still there.  Flynn has sort of taken over.  He's a low-rent version of Breitbart.

but I thought there was some truth in what he wrote.  But I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Well, it is easy to be taken in.  And be aware of confirmation bias.  You may think there is truth in what he wrote because you already agree with him.

I don't buy the "truth is in the middle" compromise.  It is too much of a social quid pro quo.  "I'll acknowledge that my far flung opinion may not be exactly right if you acknowledge your opposite opinion also may not be right." That is no way to do rationality.  It smooths over conflict.  It avoids confrontation. 

The truth is somewhere.  Maybe it's in the middle, but I doubt it.  Where ever it is, I want to know it.  If the truth is waaay over on the right, then I want to believe it is waaay over on the right.  If the truth is waaay over on the left, then I want to believe it is waaay over on the left.  I do not want to be attached to beliefs I do not want.[1]


Increased expense results in lower profits (that is ok if the company chooses that route), higher prices (if the consumer is willing or can pay them) or reduced headcount (jobs for only the most skilled {likely those second income earners} leaving a segment of society unemployable [those most at risk]).  typically I do believe these problems are temporary until the market reaches it's new balance so it might be temporary pain for a greater good.

I agree on the lower profits.  I disagree on the higher prices.  The market sets the price, in most cases.  Head count is also not something a company can always control.  There is only so much belt tightning you can do.  If you need the floors swept, they must be swept.  You cannot fire the guy who sweeps them.  You pay him and rake in somewhat less profit. 

And, as I already pointed out, there is not wave of unemployment following the minimum wage hike.  You are hanging on to an idea that is demonstrably untrue.  You should not hang on to beloved ideas after they have been shown to be wrong.  It causes you to make bad decisions. 

Why not make minimum wage high enough that you can support a house (with spouse and 2 kids) in NYC with 1 income.    Or perhaps just a little more so they can be comfortable with a few luxuries.

I have no problem raising it to a living wage.

Or should we use the illegal immigrant model with 6 families in a house sharing expenses and assigning a few members for daycare?  BTW that model still leaves money to send back home.

Why have a minimum wage at all?  Surely that would allow corporations to hire more people.  Is that not what you are arguing for?

Do you understand the disconnect between the stock market, unemployment and wages?
 1. http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Litany_of_Tarski (http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Litany_of_Tarski)