whywontgodhealamputees.com

Main Discussion Zone => Why Won't God Heal Amputees? => Topic started by: RealityCheck on March 18, 2013, 08:54:21 PM

Title: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: RealityCheck on March 18, 2013, 08:54:21 PM
Because God does amazing things through people like this. :)

http://www.lifewithoutlimbs.org/knowing-god/
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Nick on March 18, 2013, 09:56:31 PM
F*ck that.  Give me my limbs back.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: The Gawd on March 18, 2013, 11:56:40 PM
Why cant he do both? Why does he heal cancer?

*throws thread in the bushes*
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: ParkingPlaces on March 19, 2013, 12:48:13 AM
Why cant he do both? Why does he heal cancer?

*throws thread in the bushes*

God doesn't know about multitasking. He's stuck in the past.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Anfauglir on March 19, 2013, 04:05:27 AM
So god made sure he was born without limbs so that he could spread the word of god.....what a nice guy that god is.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Tonus on March 19, 2013, 05:29:45 AM
Imagine all of the amazing things he could've accomplished with two working arms and two working legs.  Seems kind of harsh to inflict him with such a horrible circumstance just to make sure he'd be a nice person.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Bereft_of_Faith on March 19, 2013, 05:43:33 AM
Imagine all of the amazing things he could've accomplished with two working arms and two working legs.  Seems kind of harsh to inflict him with such a horrible circumstance just to make sure he'd be a nice person.

Thaaaaaaat's God!
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: screwtape on March 19, 2013, 07:25:42 AM
I read the OP last night and thought "this guy SO does not get the point of wwgha or the argument behind it".  But I was too tired and lazy to bother getting into it.  I still am.  So, here's a link to where I did get into it
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,22197.msg496338.html#msg496338

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: RealityCheck on March 20, 2013, 01:41:18 PM
It's an illusion - you think you are the ones that can see - but unfortunately you have blind eyes.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Seppuku on March 20, 2013, 01:43:46 PM
Quote
Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...

What about people suffering from angina or CHD?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Dante on March 20, 2013, 02:35:50 PM
It's an illusion - you think you are the ones that can see - but unfortunately you have blind eyes.

If you believe that to be true, then you also must believe that the reason our eyes see or don't see rests entirely with your god.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Graybeard on March 20, 2013, 03:00:25 PM
Because God does amazing things through people like this. :)

http://www.lifewithoutlimbs.org/knowing-god/
That is unforgivable. You know, don't you, that the guy in the video was born after his mother took thalidomide? Nothing to do with God, unless you believe that God led scientists to Thalidomide, when He knew what it would do, just so that he could make a cheerful cripple.

Of course, as an atheist, I hope you (and, for that matter, every other Christian) do believe that God made that man like that, because that is what the Bible says God does - He makes the lame.

But why does He make the lame and never bother curing them? Well the answer is in several Gospels, He makes cripples to make Himself look good; to show His power.

Great! So you suggest that God made that guy crippled? And now is glorying in people like you who post such unmitigated, delusional garbage?

"Ooo, look everyone God cursed him and he's still a cripple but he loves Jesus! That proves there's a god!"

If I came round and chopped of your limbs, would you be happy? No. You'd wail. To all intents and purposes, your life would have ended. You, like the guy in the picture would have to rely on people to place you on the toilet and wipe your arse, feed you, clothes you. Do everything for you.

I had a friend who was damaged by Thalidomide - like the rest of them, he wasn't happy. Yes, he did well... for a while. But when his parents died and his wife left him, he died slowly. So you think God did that?

Great god, eh? Make you proud to be a Christian? You love god even more because he kills people slowly, whilst making them endure a life without limbs?

You have picked one guy out amongst thousands - what of the rest? Do you think they would like your god to give them real limbs? He will not - why? Because He's not there - the only place he exists is in your mind.

The fact that you should post that video, and claim your god did it, and that it is GOOD, to me indicates that you are totally deluded.

If I said, "I hope each one of your children become severely disabled" would you think that was a blessing?

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Ambassador Pony on March 20, 2013, 03:20:50 PM
It's an illusion - you think you are the ones that can see - but unfortunately you have blind eyes.

Why do people with blind hearts always know more things and not sound like infants or complete idiots?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: screwtape on March 20, 2013, 04:14:38 PM
It's an illusion - you think you are the ones that can see - but unfortunately you have blind eyes.

whom are you addressing?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: RealityCheck on March 20, 2013, 07:33:51 PM
Think about it in 3rd person - I think ultimately (if) there is only one God (which I am convinced that there is), and he made the entire universe, I think that the only option left is for the people who He made to trust Him and in His greater purpose. What say do they have? Remember (if) my God is real (which I believe He is), he made both pleasure and pain. Why? Why didn't he just make pain?

Risk/reward - I have absolutely nothing to lose.

If this is all that you have ever, for all eternity - this existence - what are you doing in this forum? Don't you want to spend your last breaths enjoying everything you can in this life as there won't be anything after?

I, of course, don't think this way and I think that anyone who takes a leap of faith in this miraculous guy named Jesus will live forever in His kingdom.

But your risk/reward is far greater than my risk/reward. No matter what I happens after I die, I win! If I am right, I win. If I am wrong, who cares?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: The Gawd on March 20, 2013, 07:55:38 PM
Think about it in 3rd person - I think ultimately (if) there is only one God (which I am convinced that there is), and he made the entire universe, I think that the only option left is for the people who He made to trust Him and in His greater purpose. What say do they have? Remember (if) my God is real (which I believe He is), he made both pleasure and pain. Why? Why didn't he just make pain?

Risk/reward - I have absolutely nothing to lose.

If this is all that you have ever, for all eternity - this existence - what are you doing in this forum? Don't you want to spend your last breaths enjoying everything you can in this life as there won't be anything after?

I, of course, don't think this way and I think that anyone who takes a leap of faith in this miraculous guy named Jesus will live forever in His kingdom.

But your risk/reward is far greater than my risk/reward. No matter what I happens after I die, I win! If I am right, I win. If I am wrong, who cares?

You should read about Pascal's Wager, its probably, literally the worst argument you could ever use, and its your go-to move. Did you ever stop to think...."What if the Hindu's are right?" Where does that leave your risk/reward?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: RealityCheck on March 20, 2013, 10:18:57 PM
Better than yours!
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: RealityCheck on March 20, 2013, 10:20:19 PM
By the way, I've known about Pascal's Wager forever. I just didn't reference it as that. And I agree its a shallow argument but it sometimes helps people that can not think beyond the realms of logic and reason or physical rules and laws.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: RealityCheck on March 20, 2013, 10:24:27 PM
How about Schrodinger's Cat?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: ParkingPlaces on March 20, 2013, 11:04:24 PM
Think about it in 3rd person - I think ultimately (if) there is only one God (which I am convinced that there is), and he made the entire universe, I think that the only option left is for the people who He made to trust Him and in His greater purpose. What say do they have? Remember (if) my God is real (which I believe He is), he made both pleasure and pain. Why? Why didn't he just make pain?

Risk/reward - I have absolutely nothing to lose.

If this is all that you have ever, for all eternity - this existence - what are you doing in this forum? Don't you want to spend your last breaths enjoying everything you can in this life as there won't be anything after?

I, of course, don't think this way and I think that anyone who takes a leap of faith in this miraculous guy named Jesus will live forever in His kingdom.

But your risk/reward is far greater than my risk/reward. No matter what I happens after I die, I win! If I am right, I win. If I am wrong, who cares?

RC

You have one way of looking at the world. We atheists have another. Obviously we can't both be right. Just as obviously, we could both be wrong. Perhaps we were created by an overzealous 4th grader in another universe playing with his chemistry set.

If god is not real, we still have pleasure and pain. Were we all in constant pain, we would have labels like "good pain" and "bad pain". Were we all suffering constant pleasure, we would break that down into types as well. Luckily our interaction with our nervous system allows us to experience both. And yes, philosophical stances have arisen based on those extremes. If, as we atheists think, we merely evolved and our ability to experience both is a result of genetics, then any implication that a god is involved adds unnecessary baggage and little else.

I can't speak for the others, but I spend time on forums like this for two reasons: One, religion all too often causes the aforementioned pain via ignorance, oppression, lies and just plain ickyness. Not all religions or all religious folks fall into this category, but enough do to cause people to be harmed by the bad in religion. I am speaking out against that.

Secondly, I'm not so hung up on time as to worry about ever second I have. What fun would voluntarily adding those stressors be to me. I spend some of my time being productive, other time enjoying my life. I don't think of myself as being on a timetable.

Ditto living forever. Why in the heck would anyone want to do that. What is the appeal? Life is far more interesting when one knows that it is limited. As an infinite condition, it becomes worthless. There is too much of it.

And the whole Jesus thing is so contrived. An infinite and omnipotent being whips out perfection and then gets mad at it when it isn't perfect. Knows he's failed and yet doesn't start over, but rather drowns all but a few and hopes that things will go better, even though he knows they won't because gods know stuff like that. So a bit further down the road he inserts his kid into the one pure human on planet and out comes a savior, who conveniently disappears for a long time then shows up for a few years to save the world. Does so in a conveniently negative environment (what with the roman rulers and all) and gets himself pegged to sticks, theoretically having a few bad days until the elevator arrives. But then anyone who believes the story gets saved, while the rest of us get to burn forever because your god loves us that much.

Note that the Jesus story was told to only one small group. He didn't have brothers running all over the planet trying to save the various cultural groups that existed at the time. Like all god stories, yours was conveniently localized. It is no way different from any of the other stories made up long, long ago.

I'm sure you can type out a screed designed to dash my POV on the rocks, just like I have just tried to do to yours. I am pretty much convinced that the human propensity to be religious or non-religious is genetic, a trait as minor as blue vs. brown eyes but harder to see. That could mean that there is a god and I am incapable of believing in him. Or that there isn't one, and you are incapable on not believing.

Of course, the question there is this: If there is a god, why would he let genes decide who believed and who didn't? If there isn't a god, it is just the side-effect of some necessary genetic mix-and-match. I tend to think that it is more likely that there is no god involved rather than an incompetent one who forgot to make me capable of loving him.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Tinyal on March 20, 2013, 11:54:04 PM
By the way, I've known about Pascal's Wager forever. I just didn't reference it as that. And I agree its a shallow argument but it sometimes helps people that can not think beyond the realms of logic and reason or physical rules and laws.

Well, isn't that special!!!

I could say it's because thinking beyond the realms of logic and reason is typically called a fantasy, and that such fantasizing - while great for writing fiction - produces nothing else of any use whatsoever.

I could say all those things, if I had the slightest inkling the person I was talking to was capable of grasping whatever small portion of reality they still have access to.

I have no such inkling - so I won't.

Happy close-to-spring day!
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Anfauglir on March 21, 2013, 03:30:51 AM
But your risk/reward is far greater than my risk/reward. No matter what I happens after I die, I win! If I am right, I win. If I am wrong, who cares?

Did you ever stop to think...."What if the Hindu's are right?" Where does that leave your risk/reward?

Better than yours!

Really?  And how do you figure that? 

What if the One True God values atheists more than those who follow a false religion?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Tonus on March 21, 2013, 04:30:29 AM
By the way, I've known about Pascal's Wager forever. I just didn't reference it as that. And I agree its a shallow argument but it sometimes helps people that can not think beyond the realms of logic and reason or physical rules and laws.
I agree with you, that Pascal's Wager is a shallow argument that is best used once you have left logic, reason, and reality behind.

What do I have to lose by rejecting Jesus?  I lose the opportunity to limit myself for absolutely no reward, since Jesus doesn't exist.  I lose the opportunity to artificially restrict myself and waste time on pursuits that will gain me nothing.  I lose the chance to strengthen the very worst kind of tribalism (religion) that mankind has devised.  I lose the fear of angering a capricious, vindictive, nasty, belligerent, and utterly unreasonable deity who could not possibly exist outside of the addled imagination of ancient man.

The people who fall back on Pascal's Wager rarely, if ever, encourage people to simply roll the dice and select any religion at all.  They are specifically promoting their own religion, and they don't see it as a shot in the dark.  So they are being disingenuous when they use that argument.  If I'm going to use someone else's argument, I prefer that of Stephen Roberts: "I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: naemhni on March 21, 2013, 06:47:38 AM
If this is all that you have ever, for all eternity - this existence - what are you doing in this forum? Don't you want to spend your last breaths enjoying everything you can in this life as there won't be anything after?

Among other things, I'm trying to make the world a better place.  Granted, I won't be here to see it, but I want to be able to take some satisfaction in knowing that I made at least some small contribution toward the betterment of mankind.  The main way (not the only one) in which I strive for this is to eliminate religion because I regard religion as the primary source of most of the world's ills.

Quote
But your risk/reward is far greater than my risk/reward. No matter what I happens after I die, I win! If I am right, I win. If I am wrong, who cares?

I was going to point out that you're using Pascal's Wager here, but I see that others have already taken care of it for you.  If you, yourself, acknowledge that it's such a terrible argument, why are you using it?

I could just as easily turn it around and challenge you with Pianodwarf's Wager: "If god exists but finds favor in honest atheism over faked theism -- or any other kind of theism, for that matter -- then I'm the one who's going to be saved, and you're the one who's screwed."

George Smith takes another angle on it, calling it the Atheist's Wager.  Live your life as an atheist.  If god does not exist, it won't make any difference; if god exists, but is just, you have nothing to fear; and if god exists but is unjust, you have much to fear, but so does the Christian.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: screwtape on March 21, 2013, 07:07:38 AM
I think that anyone who takes a leap of faith in this miraculous guy named Jesus will live forever in His kingdom.

Don't you feel the least bit self conscious saying such a childish thing publicly?  I'd be mortified.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Anfauglir on March 21, 2013, 08:03:33 AM
George Smith takes another angle on it, calling it the Atheist's Wager.  Live your life as an atheist.  If god does not exist, it won't make any difference; if god exists, but is just, you have nothing to fear; and if god exists but is unjust, you have much to fear, but so does the Christian.

It's a quote from Marcus Aurelius:

"Live a good life.
If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by.
If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
I am not afraid."
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: lotanddaughters on March 21, 2013, 08:11:32 AM
Some usernames go a long way. The name of the OP is "RealityCheck". This fact has made my reading of this thread more enjoyable than if this person went by another name, chances are.


Maybe it's supposed to be taken kinda like "Coat Check", where you check your reality at the door!  ;D
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Bluecolour on March 21, 2013, 08:43:14 AM
I originally thought that the OP was an attempt at sarcasm. The truth is very distressing.

I didn't want to be accused of hijacking this thread so I started my own.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Azdgari on March 21, 2013, 09:43:46 AM
I originally thought that the OP was an attempt at sarcasm. ...

Me too, given the smiley.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Astreja on March 21, 2013, 10:14:08 AM
Think about it in 3rd person - I think ultimately (if) there is only one God (which I am convinced that there is), and he made the entire universe, I think that the only option left is for the people who He made to trust Him and in His greater purpose. What say do they have?

So you're happy being a puppet of said god?  What a sad, defeatist attitude.   :(

Quote
But your risk/reward is far greater than my risk/reward. No matter what I happens after I die, I win! If I am right, I win. If I am wrong, who cares?

Reality Check, even if this life is all we get, IMNSHO it doesn't matter.  We are star stuff.  We already possess eternal existence, without the need for believing silly things.  I was there at the Big Bang, and so were you.  I even have a cast iron bathtub that was forged in the heart of a supernova.  How cool is that?

And I can't imagine why gods would actually need to inflict pain and suffering to enhance the spirituality of their "children."  (However, I might be tempted to take a Clue-By-Four(TM) to the virtual noggin of anyone who accused Me of such, causing them to see star stuff of an entirely different sort until their head cleared.  ;))

For all you know, RC, you stand condemned before your god for even using Pascal's Wager, reducing faith to a cheap "just-in-case-so-I-can-protect-my-sorry-hide-from-Hell" bet rather than emphasizing more uplifting things.  Thanks, but no thanks.  If your god exists, I think it would at least be smart enough to see through such a transparently cynical ploy as that.  And if it isn't that smart, why the heck would I want to spend forever and a day in the presence of its Divine Stupidity?

However, if one just drops the demonstrably silly idea of a "soul" -- As the average person can't even preserve continuity of consciousness through one good night's sleep, it's even less likely to persist for eternity -- it all comes out in the wash.  Just put aside the idea that "you" need to be there for the duration, stop thinking in terms of "Me me meeee" and accept that you're connected to whatever will be there, and you'll be fine.

I don't see you going down that road, though.  You seem to be strongly committed to the idea that you're going to live forever in some heavenly paradise.  I just can't respect that idea, as it's primitive, unappealing at both an intellectual and emotional level, and thoroughly unrealistic in terms of what we know of the real world.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: jaimehlers on March 21, 2013, 10:23:04 AM
It sounds like this is the kind of rationalization that people who suffer injuries go through in order to mentally cope with it, so they don't spend their lives bitter and railing at the universe (or their god).  On the one hand, it's good - nobody needs to spend their life being bitter over something that's beyond their control.  But on the other hand, the kind of convoluted rationalizations needed here are kind of distressing.  Like thanking someone who left you crippled for life - and had the power to make up for it, but didn't - because you figured out how you could live with it.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: naemhni on March 21, 2013, 02:44:31 PM
George Smith takes another angle on it, calling it the Atheist's Wager.  Live your life as an atheist.  If god does not exist, it won't make any difference; if god exists, but is just, you have nothing to fear; and if god exists but is unjust, you have much to fear, but so does the Christian.

It's a quote from Marcus Aurelius:

Right, I'm familiar with that one.  Smith says somewhat the same thing, but it's kind of different in that (among other things) he goes into more detail about it.

Quote from: George Smith
I want to offer you a kind of counter-wager, called the "Smith's wager." Here are the premises of my wager:

1. The existence of a god, if we are to believe in it, can only be established through reason.
2. Applying the canons of correct reasoning to theistic belief, we must reach the conclusion that theism is unfounded and must be rejected by rational people.

Now comes the question, "But what if reason is wrong in this case?", which it sometimes is. We are fallible human beings. What if it turns out that there is a Christian god and He's up there and He's going to punish for eternity for disbelieving in Him. Here's where my wager comes in. Let's suppose you're an atheist. What are the possibilities? The first possibility is there is no god, you're right. In that case, you'll die, that'll be it, you've lost nothing, and you've lived a happy life with the correct position. Secondly, a god may exist but he may not be concerned with human affairs. He may be the god of traditional Deism. He may have started the universe going and left it to its traditional devices, in which case you will simply die, that is all there is to it, again, and you've lost nothing.

Let's suppose that God exists and He is concerned with human affairs -- He's a personal god -- but that He is a just god. He's concerned with justice. If you have a just god, he could not possibly punish an honest error of belief where there is no moral turpitude or no wrongdoing involved. If this god is a creator god and He gave us reason as the basic means of understanding our world, then He would take pride in the conscientious and scrupulous use of reason the part of His creatures, even if they committed errors from time to time, in the same way a benevolent father would take pride in the accomplishments of his son, even if the son committed errors from time to time. Therefore, if there exists a just god, we have absolutely nothing to fear from such a god. Such a god could not conceivably punish us for an honest error of belief.

Now we came to the last possibility. Suppose there exists an unjust god, specifically the god of Christianity, who doesn't give a damn about justice and who will burn us in Hell, regardless of whether we made honest mistakes or not. Such a god is necessarily unjust, for there is no more heinous injustice we could conceive of, than to punish a person for an honest error of belief, when he has tried to the best of his ability to ascertain the truth. The Christian thinks he's in a better position in case this kind of god exists. I wish to point out that he's not in any better position than we are because if you have an unjust god. The earmark of injustice is unprincipled behavior, behavior that's not predictable. If there's an unjust god and He really gets all this glee out of burning sinners and disbelievers, then what could give him more glee than to tell Christians they would be saved, only to turn around and burn them anyway, for the Hell of it, just because he enjoys it? If you've got an unjust god, what worst injustice could there be than that? It's not that far-fetched. If a god is willing to punish you simply for an honest error of belief, you can't believe He's going to keep his word when He tells you He won't punish you if you don't believe in Him because He's got to have a sadistic streak to begin with. Certainly He would get quite a bit of glee out of this behavior. Even if there exists this unjust god, then admittedly we live in a nightmarish universe, but we're in no worse position than the Christian is.

Again, if you're going to make the wager, you might as well wager on what your reason tells you, that atheism is correct, and go that route because you won't be able to do anything about an unjust god anyway, even if you accept Christianity. My wager says that you should in all cases wager on reason and accept the logical consequence, which in this case is atheism. If there's no god, you're correct; if there's an indifferent god, you won't suffer; if there's a just god, you have nothing to fear from the honest use of your reason; and if there's an unjust god, you have much to fear but so does the Christian.

(Bold mine)

Source:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/george_smith/defending.html
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: wright on March 21, 2013, 04:16:39 PM
As to the OP, your attempt at apologetics is laughable. If a god exists- and there is as yet zero evidence for such a thing- then it's not one that cares much about the existence of matter, let alone humanity. Almost the entire universe is utterly deadly to life as we know it: no air, no water, barely light that our feeble eyes can even perceive.

Reality Check, even if this life is all we get, IMNSHO it doesn't matter.  We are star stuff.  We already possess eternal existence, without the need for believing silly things.  I was there at the Big Bang, and so were you.  I even have a cast iron bathtub that was forged in the heart of a supernova.  How cool is that?

Astreja, if that tub also has cast clawed feet, the afterlife will be hard pressed to be 1/10th as cool  8)
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: dloubet on March 22, 2013, 02:45:46 AM
To bring it back to the OP. If the god would rather leave the amputee limbless to heal his heart, why not leave the cancerous cancerous, the blind blind, and the lame lame for the same reason? We hear Christians claim that a cancer, or a blindness, or a lameness was healed by their god all the time. How come the god singles out amputees for heart-healing ONLY?

If the god character magically restored limbs at the same rate that it supposedly heals cancer, this site wouldn't exist.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Aaron123 on March 22, 2013, 11:41:02 AM
Because God does amazing things through people like this. :)

http://www.lifewithoutlimbs.org/knowing-god/

I could've sworn I seen this sort of "response" before, and it involved the exact same limbless person.   It missed the point then, and it miss the point now.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Grimm on March 26, 2013, 04:21:26 PM
How about Schrodinger's Cat?

... wait.  What?

Schrodinger's cat is a thought experiment, a way of explaining some of the varagries of the math of quantum physics to people who don't quite understand the idea of a superposition.  That's it.  It is neither a real experiment, nor anything more (or less) than a sort of analogy for an extremely hard to grasp idea.

What does that have to do with faith, at all?   In the real world, if you attempted to actually do this experiment, there is no 'quantum state of the cat'.  Cats are far too large - there is only probability, an either-or position based on the random radioactive decay of some element.  Besides, the cat can perceive itself, which makes the whole thing moot at this scale.

'Quantum' of any description is not a valid explanation for any kind of faith.

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on April 03, 2013, 08:43:06 PM
Because God does amazing things through people like this. :)

http://www.lifewithoutlimbs.org/knowing-god/ (http://www.lifewithoutlimbs.org/knowing-god/)

Your article states [in part], "The love of God the Father for God the Son is the measure of the love of the Son for believers!" Well then God must not love us very much!

This is in direct contradiction with your own bible. Have you even read it? Jesus repeatedly states (supposedly he said this) that his disciples will (not might, but will) heal the sick, raise the dead, and do greater works than he supposedly did - if you are true believers (John 14, Mark 16) you should be doing this. "Healing their hearts" is the new Christianity of today. It's the whole touchy, feely, lovey, dovey, Christianity that focuses on the "turn the other cheek" bits and completely ignores the passages that stand in stark contradiction to your theology.

Sorry dude, the bible clearly teaches that you should be healing amputees (and tons other physical ailments - not just "their hearts"). If you can't, then either 1) you aren't a true believer (which means you aren't saved), or 2) the whole thing is bull crap. Since we both know that ALL other religions around the world are man-made (and false) - only you think just ONE is true - I'm going with option #2. Mankind has demonstrated (overwhelmingly) that he is willing to make-up bullshit religions in order to control people and pacify his fear of death. Christianity is just another false religion in a LONG line of man-made false relgions.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Andrew on April 26, 2013, 04:52:51 AM
Your stupid He does. I am a Christian and i am a witness to creative miracles such as eyeballs growing into their sockets, legs growing out, bones being manufactured ect. your all liars, your need to have faith then God will prove Himself to you.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Anfauglir on April 26, 2013, 05:29:36 AM
Your stupid He does. I am a Christian and i am a witness to creative miracles such as eyeballs growing into their sockets, legs growing out, bones being manufactured ect. your all liars, your need to have faith then God will prove Himself to you.

Andrew, that's fantastic!  I quite agree that incredible things happen all the time.  Just last night I saw once again the leprechauns that live in my tool shed - they trimmed the hedges for me and one of them broke a flowerpot by accident, but that's leprechauns, eh?  I'm just so glad that you believe me about them - nobody else on this site of skeptics will. 

I posted a picture of the broken pot and the trimmed hedges, but the swines here said that wasn't proof.  I tried to take pictures of the leprechauns, but they are shy people who use their magic to ensure they don't appear in pictures.  I'm so pleased you are here to be able to share your before and after pictures of the eyeballs, and the film footage of it actually happening - NOW we'll be able to show 'em!  When they see the footage of an eyeball slowly growing back into a ruined socket, or legs growing out of a stump with the feet and toes forming slowly at the end, THEN they'll believe!

Really looking forward to the links you'll be posting!  Welcome to the site!

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: screwtape on April 26, 2013, 09:19:59 AM
Your stupid ...your all liars

Andrew, my green text indicates I am acting as a moderator.  I realize you are likely a drive-by and not going to post any more.  But I'd like to hope otherwise, so here we go.

The quote above is bad.  For one, it's not going to make you any friends.  For two, if you are trying to convince anyone of anything, calling them names is not the way to do it.  For three, you have used incorrect grammar.  It is "you're" not "your".  "Your" is possessive. 

Last, your comments are not very xian. 

I have two bible quotes for you. 
Matt 5:43-45
Quote
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’  But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Luke 6:22
Quote
Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil.

I guess you have blessed us.

Also, you make some pretty big claims.  Here in this forum, you need to support those claims with evidence. 

Please behave better.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Aaron123 on April 26, 2013, 10:33:37 AM
Your stupid He does.

What would Jesus do?

Matthew 7:1-2
Judge not, that ye be not judged.  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.


Quote
I am a Christian and i am a witness to creative miracles such as eyeballs growing into their sockets, legs growing out, bones being manufactured ect.

I am, frankly, quite tired of such claims being posted without evidence.  Texts on a screen are not miracles.


Quote
your all liars

Sounds very much like you're calling us fools.  What does Jesus think of that?

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

I guess you should stock up on marshmellows.



Quote
your need to have faith then God will prove Himself to you.

Many of us are ex-christains; we've already tried the faith thing.  God did not "prove himself" back then, and he apparently has no desire to do so now.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Tonus on April 30, 2013, 03:08:48 PM
I am a Christian and i am a witness to creative miracles such as eyeballs growing into their sockets, legs growing out, bones being manufactured ect.

I'm going to go out on a limb[1] here, and presume that you do not have any evidence to substantiate these claims.  It gets tiresome to hear people offer such miraculous anecdotes, but when asked to provide evidence all we get is obfuscation and misdirection, if not outright insults and appeals to insanity.

I'm further going to guess that if someone from a different faith made similar claims but attributed them to another god, or even another version of your god, you would dismiss them as fanciful or demand the same level of proof that you refuse to provide for your own claims.  Really, the whole "if you saw things my way, you'd agree with me" schtick is just old.
 1. get it???
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Nam on April 30, 2013, 03:14:04 PM
When will Biblegod heal me from being such an asshole all the time? Huh!?!? Yeah, yeah, man.

Wait! What are we talking about?

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on May 19, 2013, 03:33:36 PM
Im new here --just joined today --so please forgive me if the answer below has already been posted many times over. If it has then just ignore it. Thank you.


Why wont God Heal Amputees?

Is the simple answer that there are no amputees.
The body we have are temporary.
The soul is what goes to God and not this body.
The soul is not handicapped in any way since it cannot be burnt, made wet or cut apart.

The soul is eternal and real to those who believe and so there are no amputees.

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Aaron123 on May 19, 2013, 03:39:17 PM
Why wont God Heal Amputees?

Is the simple answer that there are no amputees.

That is the dumbest answer I've heard yet.  Try telling that to an armless person, and see how they respond to that. 



Quote
The body we have are temporary.
The soul is what goes to God and not this body.
The soul is not handicapped in any way since it cannot be burnt, made wet or cut apart.

The soul is eternal and real to those who believe and so there are no amputees.

This is nothing more than woo-speak, it doesn't address the question, and it sounds as though you don't even understand the question.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: The Gawd on May 19, 2013, 03:50:18 PM
Im new here --just joined today --so please forgive me if the answer below has already been posted many times over. If it has then just ignore it. Thank you.


Why wont God Heal Amputees?

Is the simple answer that there are no amputees.
The body we have are temporary.
The soul is what goes to God and not this body.
The soul is not handicapped in any way since it cannot be burnt, made wet or cut apart.

The soul is eternal and real to those who believe and so there are no amputees.
then why do people say god heals cancer?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Azdgari on May 19, 2013, 03:59:24 PM
By the same reasoning, there are no cancer patients.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on May 19, 2013, 05:37:24 PM

Hello Aaron123

[[That is the dumbest answer I've heard yet. ]]
You have to read the full answer.

The soul is the real you and this body is just a temporary tool to house your real ‘you’.
The body which you care for and cry for is subject to death and diseases. No one should deny that.  To say that god is going to come and give that extra part is your own foolishness. The body will be "subject to" whatever amount of karma you have accumulated (thats a whole different topic to get involved in).

So the whole question that “Why wont God heal an amputee" is foolish.
Just think about it (as if I need to convince you of it) if God were to heal your body then he might as well heal the whole world.

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on May 19, 2013, 05:40:58 PM
The Gawd
[[then why do people say god heals cancer?

I think people says all sorts of things. They say god did ‘this’ when things are good and they say god ‘that’ when things go bad. And god probably never had anything to do with either.

The reason why people say that is because it is their belief.
Its not your belief so you wont say it and you wont believe it.
But when your mind is convinced that god is controlling everything then this person will say these things. He is not wrong and you are not wrong. Its just that you both see cancer from different perspectives.
A person who believes in God will find his mind focused in curing the cancer by praying to god. So when he is cured he can say nothing else except that god did it. He is right.
An atheist will believe that the medicine or his own belief in the medicine will cure him. And it does. He is right.
So who is wrong?

There is a school of thought that the mind is like a reflection of yourself. Your mind is your god and your mind is the devil. There is nothing greater than the mind. The mind is god.
God is therefore real as your mind makes him to be.

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on May 19, 2013, 05:44:04 PM
Azdgari
[[By the same reasoning, there are no cancer patients.]]

Lets look at it this way. God has only ever given humans signs and the occasional miracles.
Why occasional and not full time –well that’s another debate.

The only true sight of God is going to be heaven.
This is because the heaven is seen as your real home and that of god.
In heaven you wont see any cancer patients.
So by that same reasoning that the soul is the real you --then yes there are no cancer patients.

This temporary body we are living with-- is subject to death and diseases.
When we know that the body is temporary then we look after it the best way we can.
When things go wrong with it then we try and repair it the best way we can.

But if the soul is the real body (which is the point i was tryign to make) then there is death desease or injury to it.


Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: The Gawd on May 19, 2013, 05:54:56 PM
The Gawd
[[then why do people say god heals cancer?

I think people says all sorts of things. They say god did ‘this’ when things are good and they say god ‘that’ when things go bad. And god probably never had anything to do with either.

The reason why people say that is because it is their belief.
Its not your belief so you wont say it and you wont believe it.
But when your mind is convinced that god is controlling everything then this person will say these things. He is not wrong and you are not wrong. Its just that you both see cancer from different perspectives.
A person who believes in God will find his mind focused in curing the cancer by praying to god. So when he is cured he can say nothing else except that god did it. He is right.
An atheist will believe that the medicine or his own belief in the medicine will cure him. And it does. He is right.
So who is wrong?

There is a school of thought that the mind is like a reflection of yourself. Your mind is your god and your mind is the devil. There is nothing greater than the mind. The mind is god.
God is therefore real as your mind makes him to be.

no, both cannot be right.
However, are you positing that there is no god, just a figment of the imagination (the mind)? If so I'm not sure how you get all this soul talk. I assume youre not Christian because you say the soul cannot be burned when that is exactly what the mythological christian god plans on doing. If you havent done so, you can introduce yourself in the introduction forum and tell us about your beliefs so we dont have to guess. Welcome.

 
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Azdgari on May 19, 2013, 06:12:43 PM
Lets look at it this way. God has only ever given humans signs and the occasional miracles.
Why occasional and not full time –well that’s another debate.

This site's question asks why these miracles are always indistinguishable from things that just happened by chance.  Being occasional or full time is another topic entirely.

The only true sight of God is going to be heaven.
This is because the heaven is seen as your real home and that of god.
In heaven you wont see any cancer patients.
So by that same reasoning that the soul is the real you --then yes there are no cancer patients. ...

Cancer refers to the state of the body.  Amputation refers to the state of the body.  And I don't think you've understood the question asked by this site.  At all.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on May 19, 2013, 06:40:31 PM
The Gawd


I am a Hindu and yes i need to update and learn rules on how to post in forums and even give replies –so apologies.

As to the discussion, and as a Hindu --what I say is from the many scriptures we have.


I am a firm believer that God exist; because I have read about God and heard about God and would say I have experienced God, (and you might call me a madman for saying that).
But I still cannot claim to know all the answers. I can only tell what i have read, observed and experienced.

In my answers having told you that how I believe that both the followers of God and non-believers of God are right in their own minds, I merely stated that there is a school of thought in Hinduism who believe that the mind is the god.

Since I am a firm believer in God, then I believe in a soul and also that any healing or cure comes with the aid of God (and my karma) because i have asked for his help (as would people of any religion) and it is what I choose to believe happened (is god helped me).

Those who dont ask god for help and who are still cured are in my personal belief that their ‘good’ karma is the reason for their cure, but these non-believers dont think it has anything to do with god or karma. It is their belief and they are right from their view point.

I am certainly not going to argue with anyone and say that ONLY MY WAY IS RIGHT THEREFORE YOU ARE ALL WRONG (You see how arrogant that sounds). I can only tell you what is said in our scriptures and why I view the world differently to you.


Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on May 19, 2013, 06:44:13 PM

Azdgari

Too much in a rush --My first day I must read things more properly next time and answer questions in the correct forums. My apologies.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: The Gawd on May 19, 2013, 07:01:03 PM
The Gawd


I am a Hindu and yes i need to update and learn rules on how to post in forums and even give replies –so apologies.

As to the discussion, and as a Hindu --what I say is from the many scriptures we have.


I am a firm believer that God exist; because I have read about God and heard about God and would say I have experienced God, (and you might call me a madman for saying that).
But I still cannot claim to know all the answers. I can only tell what i have read, observed and experienced.

In my answers having told you that how I believe that both the followers of God and non-believers of God are right in their own minds, I merely stated that there is a school of thought in Hinduism who believe that the mind is the god.

Since I am a firm believer in God, then I believe in a soul and also that any healing or cure comes with the aid of God (and my karma) because i have asked for his help (as would people of any religion) and it is what I choose to believe happened (is god helped me).

Those who dont ask god for help and who are still cured are in my personal belief that their ‘good’ karma is the reason for their cure, but these non-believers dont think it has anything to do with god or karma. It is their belief and they are right from their view point.

I am certainly not going to argue with anyone and say that ONLY MY WAY IS RIGHT THEREFORE YOU ARE ALL WRONG (You see how arrogant that sounds). I can only tell you what is said in our scriptures and why I view the world differently to you.

Its not a rule that you post an introduction, but it certainly helps the discussions because we would have the context for your posts. We would approach you differently than we would a Christian.

As for your explanation for cures, that would make sense in your context, IF "bad" people werent healed. Also karma would need to explain why they became ill in the 1st place. And the question still remains why god/karma doesnt heel and amputee.

I wouldnt say youre a madman for saying you experienced god, what I think is you had an experience that you incorrectly attributed to a god when there is a natural explanation that doesnt require anything supernatural.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Aaron123 on May 19, 2013, 09:41:58 PM
Hello Aaron123

Hello.

Quote
You have to read the full answer.

I've read your entire post, if that's what you meant.


Quote
The soul is the real you and this body is just a temporary tool to house your real ‘you’.
The body which you care for and cry for is subject to death and diseases. No one should deny that.  To say that god is going to come and give that extra part is your own foolishness. The body will be "subject to" whatever amount of karma you have accumulated (thats a whole different topic to get involved in).


Right here, I wonder if you've read all of my earlier post.  I've already stated that your words are little more than woo-speak, and this "the soul is the real you" speech is just more woo-speak.  By "woo-speak", I mean that your words are designed to sound magical, mythical, deep, and profound; but in actuality, they mean and say very little.


Quote
So the whole question that “Why wont God heal an amputee" is foolish.
Just think about it (as if I need to convince you of it) if God were to heal your body then he might as well heal the whole world.

Again, I wonder if you understand what the question is trying to get at.  Notice, that your answers are designed to account for a god that does nothing.  This god of yours (that does nothing) looks, sounds, and act exactly, I mean exactly like a god that does not exist. 


When we hear of a god that does nothing and acts as though it doesn't exist, we start thinking that perhaps it's because, well... perhaps it doesn't exist.  Do you understand that line of reasoning?  (note: I didn't say agree with it, I'm just asking right now if you can understand it)  When believers are confronted with the issue, they come up with all sorts of answers--except any that would demostrate god's existence beyond a doubt.  They never offer to fly like Superman, lift an airplane with their bare hands, or healing an amputee.  Instead, they offer things like "do not test the lord" or "it's your fault for being stubborn".

God is indistinguishable from a nonexistence thing, and I think that on some level, you're aware of that.  Your posts anticipate that god will do nothing in the future, and this is based on a long, long history of doing nothing. (except, perhaps, for appearing on a piece of toast)  You're not saying "Ok, lets go to a hospital, find an amputee,  I'll pray for that person, and we'll see what happens."  Instead, you talk of "the soul is the real you" and "accumulated karma", and there isn't even a way to measure things like that.  (if there is, I'm willing to hear it)  When nothing is forecoming, we simply fallback on the idea that there is nothing.  If you could offer something concrete(again, such as the healing of an amputee), then we might be willing to consider the idea that something is out there.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Anfauglir on May 20, 2013, 03:59:25 AM
.....any healing or cure comes with the aid of God (and my karma) because i have asked for his help (as would people of any religion) and it is what I choose to believe happened (is god helped me).

Those who dont ask god for help and who are still cured are in my personal belief that their ‘good’ karma is the reason for their cure.....

And the people with bad karma who also get cured?  What is your explanation for them?

I've never really "got" karma.  I understand the general principle - that good comes back to good, and bad for bad - but I've never understood how it works in practice.

Fair enough if the events returning on someone are instigated by god, because all he has to do is keep a long tally list and hand out the cures and diseases as appropriate (although then, why do bad people get cured?  And why do good people get sick?)

But there's actually not that much god-granted karma effects out there.  A lot more of the time, its people doing things to people......

Say Aaron is a good man, and is due some good karma.  Does the universe just wait until someone crosses his path who is ready to dispense some goodness?  That sounds a bit random.....but if a person is directed or influenced towards Aaron, doesn't that rather cruch their free will?  Certainly if they did not choose to hand out the good to Aaron, then surely they do not in turn gain any good karma from their action?

Similarly, if The Gawd is due some serious bad karma, and I happen along and dish it out to him......does my giving of the bad mean that I become due some bad myself?  Or am I due some good karma for sorting out the balance of the universe?  Has my free will been overridded in order to dish out the bad?  It would seem it had to have been, because otherwise karma becomes reliant on circumstance and chance.....and that in turn means that karma is NOT an automatic thing.  It means I can do all bad stuff, store up a bad karmic debt.....and nothing happens (and similarly for good).

So if you could explain how karma actually operates, I would appreciate it - because I just don't understand how it is supposed to work.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Mrjason on May 20, 2013, 05:36:26 AM
Your mind is your god and your mind is the devil. There is nothing greater than the mind. The mind is god.

This is an old school of thought,

Quote from:  john milton - C.1667
The mind is its own place, and in it self
Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n.

and supports your statement;

God is therefore real as your mind makes him to be.

However this is where you seem to have made an error in your assertions in the posts above (replies #47, #48 etc).
If the mind is sovereign, god must therefore be subjective.

As god is subjective it can not, by definition, influence the world outside of the self (which is WWGHA)
As god is subjective it will die with the subject.
This is exactly the same as saying God (with a capital G) does not exist as the gods created as part of our conception of ourselves are limited by us, their creators.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on May 20, 2013, 10:59:53 AM

I am a firm believer that God exist; because I have read about God and heard about God and would say I have experienced God, (and you might call me a madman for saying that).
But I still cannot claim to know all the answers. I can only tell what i have read, observed and experienced.

And herein lies your problem. Just like the Christians, Jews, and Muslims you have ASSUMED that what you read was true! But why would you do that? Why would you just believe what your parents told you, what a friend of your family told you, or anyone else?

In my answers having told you that how I believe that both the followers of God and non-believers of God are right in their own minds, I merely stated that there is a school of thought in Hinduism who believe that the mind is the god.

Being "right in your own mind" doesn't make one bit of difference! You are just stating the obvious..."We have a disagreement!" Yeah...and...?

Do you agree with this idea that "mind is God"? If so, please define what you think "mind" is, b/c as of now, all of the evidence we have shows that minds are properties of physical substrates (i.e. - brains) and do not exist without those substrates. And if "mind" - to you - is something inherently natural, then there is no need to call it "God" b/c that term is charged with all sorts of unnecessary baggage.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: screwtape on May 20, 2013, 11:01:21 AM
Im new here --just joined today --

Hi Kiran.  Welcome to the forum.


Is the simple answer that there are no amputees.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/99f15bc1da84165e3d22b8d76ed289ae/tumblr_mhqcwa5A9k1qmts04o1_500.jpg (http://25.media.tumblr.com/99f15bc1da84165e3d22b8d76ed289ae/tumblr_mhqcwa5A9k1qmts04o1_500.jpg)

^Is this you?

That is possibly the worst answer I've ever read.  Obviously there are amputees.  You are trying to say losing is limb is somehow irrelevant or doesn't happen because you think there is an "afterlife".  Bollocks to that. 


How old are you?



and yes i need to update and learn rules on how to post in forums and even give replies –so apologies.

Please see the links in my sig.  that should help.

I am a firm believer that God exist; because I have read about God and heard about God

I've heard and read about Harry Potter.  When I read his books, I experienced him.  Does that make Harry Potter a real person?

and would say I have experienced God, (and you might call me a madman for saying that).

No.  I would say you experienced something but you don't know what it was.  Most likely, a common psychological phenomenon. Happens all the time.


I am certainly not going to argue with anyone and say that ONLY MY WAY IS RIGHT THEREFORE YOU ARE ALL WRONG (You see how arrogant that sounds).

malarkey.  There is a right and a wrong when talking about objective facts. 

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on May 21, 2013, 05:02:39 PM
1] The Gawd
Thank you for your reply.



2] Aaron123

Wow Aaron thats a lot you are asking.
Firstly I do agree with what you say because I cant provide the answer you are looking for ie miracles or solid proof of god.
I cant deny my belief is only based on my faith and the faith millions.   

This means you are right from your perspective and I am right from my perspective.
I believe in some ‘magical being’ who is invisible and hasn’t appeared to mankind for centuries (according to you –not myself and millions) and when he did/does there isn’t any concrete proof to suggest GOD exist or HIS miracles are real.
So what can more can I say?
Not a lot really to convince you otherwise.
All I can say is ‘seek and you shall find’. This I do believe.


[[If you could offer something concrete(again, such as the healing of an amputee), then we might be willing to consider the idea that something is out there.]]

What you are saying is exactly the reason why God does not appear.
God generally does not interfere in the lives of humans. If he did then we would all be robots. We all have free will not mention, we have the karma to account for.

A person who suffers some pain must go through his pain –according to his karma. Even God is subject to Karma, but he has his under control whilst we still don’t know how to control ours, (well we do-- but few try or want to control it). So to ask God to cure all or any amputees is wrong. God has made it clear that on this earth we are born to both suffer and enjoy. Its how you react and work and live with either of those are the lessons that God generally teaches us. 

Aslo let me quickly add --just because someone has to suffer for his karma does not mean we cannot help this person (often misunderstood by non-Hindus). The other spectrum is what we call Dharma –our duty to do the right thing.
This is why we as humans are given opportunities to help amputees.



[[God is indistinguishable from a non-existence thing,]]

What I would say is that people have experiences that are beyond explanations and these are what we term as god experiences. Hence God exists for us. But that alone does not substantiate as proof of God. God must come and face the world and prove his existence.
But I don’t think that’s a good idea.
Once we see that God exist would we really suddenly become God worshippers? Would you really become a worshipper?
You write [[If you could offer something concrete(again, such as the healing of an amputee), then we might be willing to consider the idea that something is out there.]]

You will only ‘consider it’. Even you are not sure. What point is there than God to even appear before you? Just to satisfy your curiosity.

History teaches  the same. For example taking the Moses story where God parted the sea—clearly God showed himself through an amazing miracle. Now what we find next is equally amazing. Instead of the people becoming religious and worshipping God on hands and knees, they actually become something totally opposite. They become corrupt and ‘mad’.
Basically if we consider this story real then we can see what would happen.
I guess something slightly similar happened in Iraq. When the people were free of the tyrant ruler, instead of becoming good the people went on a rampage of looting and killing. (This is just a generalised observation to make my point and Im not getting into the whole politics thing. May be my generalised version is wholly incorrect.)

So its better for God to remain ‘visible’ to only those who truly wants to see him.


Second example --- Look what happened to Jesus (I know perhaps you may not believe he is real; but let imagine he was real). Even after  many people saw his miracles, many just turned away and went against him instead! How odd is that.

To be honest this is what would happen to God if he did appear today.
No amount of his explaining will convince millions to worship him.
So should God really perform miracles –yes in exceptional cases where he thinks fit and NO—not for the disbeliveers or to quench some curiosity?






3] Anfauglir
[[And the people with bad karma who also get cured?  What is your explanation for them?]]

Just because a person is bad does not mean he cannot be cured. Far from it. He is cured because of his karma.
The same reason why [[good people get sick?]].

I wrote ‘good’ in apostrophes. Karma is difficult to explain here since its neither good or bad. 

If Aaron did some great deed then that will need to be balanced out too by Aaron   getting some reward. So in reality its not a good idea to be in ‘good’ karma.
That does not mean you have to do ‘bad’ karma to balance it. It just means you should not let your good deed elevate your ego that you did something great and you wont be affected by the good deed or be in ‘debt’ of  the good deed.
Look I cant explain it all properly right now. I hope you can do your own research on this. Im sure there is so much out there.




[[Fair enough if the events returning on someone are instigated by god]]
No this is a misconception that God has something to do with you being good or bad.
Just think about it. Why would he enjoy making you suffer.
Your karma are your own.

I’ll leave at that if you don’t mind.



[[[free will]]]]
This term is used differently by Christians. I guess we are all connected in someway. Karma is not fulfilled in one life time but over many.




[[The Gawd is due some serious bad karma, and I happen along and dish it out to him......does my giving of the bad mean that I become due some bad myself? ]]

Just because he deserves bad karma does not free you from the fact that you too committed some misdeed to fulfil his karma. However –there always is a however ……

However, if you did some bad karma out of some dharma (of doing the right thing for the greater good) then off course you will not get the karma because you had to fulfil your dharma.  Eg A person is hitting a person and you save him by hitting the other person. Its you dharma to protect the weak and you are not affected by your actions of hitting the other person.

So what is advised is that you keep your karma in check. The way to do that is through God. You pray to Him and leave all your actions to him. Let him ‘control’ you. This is very difficult to do. Very few people have ever let God control their life.


Every action has a reaction –whether you agree or not.
Karma is a long topic to explain to someone and this will deviate me from the question I thought I was trying to answer. I hope you do some research of your own in the meantime.





4] Mrjason
I agree with you but this was just a thought process of some school of thoughts. A school of thought that does not believe in god as real but as the ‘being’ who is you.




5] median
[[Why would you just believe what your parents told you, what a friend of your family told you, or anyone else?]]

I also said I experienced God and this is the reason for my firmness in God. But equally I cannot prove God to others. I can show them way =s so that they too may experience –but I have refrained from saying that.


[[Do you agree with this idea that "mind is God"?]]
The mind is closer than to God then we know. After all it is what deciphers all thoughts. More importantly its also where your subconscious speaks to you. God speaks to you. I believe in a God who is real, who speaks to me and walks and talks with me. Whether you consider that is weird or madness is your choice. But whats important to me is how I see God. I am trying to explain God but without proof I fall flat like everyone else. So all I can ask you to do ‘seek and you shall find’ for yourself.
 

What is the mind?
This is beyond my ability to explain to you –so I would urge you to do some research on the websites. Google “Hindu mind” or something and hope you get the answers.
http://hinduism.about.com/od/bookextracts/a/mind.htm

http://www.hinduism.co.za/mind1.htm

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/mind.asp




6] screwtape
Hi there.

[[Welcome to the forum.]] Thank you.

[[That is possibly the worst answer I've ever read. ]] I think you need to read the rest of that post. Someone else said the same thign and I have given my reply to him if you wish to read it. 
 

[[You are trying to say losing is limb is somehow irrelevant or doesn't happen because you think there is an "afterlife". ]]
I said none of those things. You need to take a step back and take a deep breath. Lets not along this line of false accusation.


[[I've heard and read about Harry Potter.  When I read his books, I experienced him.  Does that make Harry Potter a real person?]]
Im sure youre trying to make some kind of point here :) But what I would say to you is that if you have experienced  Harry Potter helping you in someway and you consider him to be your chosen deity then certainly he will be real to you. There is no doubt about it. You should continue to worship him if you experience him :)



Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on May 21, 2013, 05:08:26 PM
[[How old are you?]]  45+
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Aaron123 on May 22, 2013, 12:38:50 AM
I'll only comment on the parts directed at me.


Firstly I do agree with what you say because I cant provide the answer you are looking for ie miracles or solid proof of god.
I cant deny my belief is only based on my faith and the faith millions.   

This means you are right from your perspective and I am right from my perspective.

Thus far, there's nothing really I can argue about.  Though I'm not seeing any compelling reasons for your beliefs...


Quote
I believe in some ‘magical being’ who is invisible and hasn’t appeared to mankind for centuries (according to you –not myself and millions) and when he did/does there isn’t any concrete proof to suggest GOD exist or HIS miracles are real.

Invisible, hasn't appeared for "centuries", and no concrete proof to speak of...  Thus far, it sounds like exactly what you'd expect for a non-existence thing.  At this point, I can't even understand why you'd believe in an invisible, do-nothing, acts non-existence being.



Quote
So what can more can I say?
Not a lot really to convince you otherwise.
All I can say is ‘seek and you shall find’. This I do believe.


I seeked and sought god before (christain god, that is).  I found nothing.


Quote
What you are saying is exactly the reason why God does not appear.
God generally does not interfere in the lives of humans. If he did then we would all be robots. We all have free will not mention, we have the karma to account for.


I like robots.  Being a robot is fine by me.  I'd just like to turn into a car.  Or maybe a plane.  Heck, just make me a triple-changer...



Quote
A person who suffers some pain must go through his pain –according to his karma. Even God is subject to Karma, but he has his under control whilst we still don’t know how to control ours, (well we do-- but few try or want to control it). So to ask God to cure all or any amputees is wrong. God has made it clear that on this earth we are born to both suffer and enjoy. Its how you react and work and live with either of those are the lessons that God generally teaches us. 


This is not at all convincing.  It is again, telling me why I shouldn't expect anything from god.  Which is the very same as a non-existence god.



Quote
Aslo let me quickly add --just because someone has to suffer for his karma does not mean we cannot help this person (often misunderstood by non-Hindus). The other spectrum is what we call Dharma –our duty to do the right thing.
This is why we as humans are given opportunities to help amputees.

Oh yes, I agree that we should help others.

But this is still telling me to expect nothing from god.



Quote
What I would say is that people have experiences that are beyond explanations and these are what we term as god experiences. Hence God exists for us. But that alone does not substantiate as proof of God. God must come and face the world and prove his existence.
But I don’t think that’s a good idea.


Again, telling me to expect nothing from god.  I'm not sure what else to say here.


Quote
Once we see that God exist would we really suddenly become God worshippers? Would you really become a worshipper?


You said before that if god appeared, we would all "become robots".  That sounded like you were suggusting that we'd all become mindless worshippers.  So I'm not sure why you're asking this.


Quote
You will only ‘consider it’. Even you are not sure. What point is there than God to even appear before you? Just to satisfy your curiosity.


How can I be certain what my reaction will be until god actually does appears before me?


Quote
History teaches  the same. For example taking the Moses story where God parted the sea—clearly God showed himself through an amazing miracle. Now what we find next is equally amazing. Instead of the people becoming religious and worshipping God on hands and knees, they actually become something totally opposite. They become corrupt and ‘mad’.
Basically if we consider this story real then we can see what would happen.
I guess something slightly similar happened in Iraq. When the people were free of the tyrant ruler, instead of becoming good the people went on a rampage of looting and killing. (This is just a generalised observation to make my point and Im not getting into the whole politics thing. May be my generalised version is wholly incorrect.)

So its better for God to remain ‘visible’ to only those who truly wants to see him.


Second example --- Look what happened to Jesus (I know perhaps you may not believe he is real; but let imagine he was real). Even after  many people saw his miracles, many just turned away and went against him instead! How odd is that.

To be honest this is what would happen to God if he did appear today.
No amount of his explaining will convince millions to worship him.


Before, you were invoking the question of free will and "robots".  With this part, it sounds like we will not have to worry about free will or becoming "robots".  Which is it?  Do I need to worry about my free will or not?  I cannot respond while you are implying both "yes" and "no" at the same time.


Quote
So should God really perform miracles –yes in exceptional cases where he thinks fit and NO—not for the disbeliveers or to quench some curiosity?


You said at the start that god's miracles doesn't leave behind any evidence.  That being the case, what is the difference between when he does a miracle, and when he doesn't?  The question "should god perform miracles" seems unanswerable in this context.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: screwtape on May 22, 2013, 07:24:04 AM
HI Kiran,

below, in my sig, are links to guides and tutorials.  some of them will help you learn how to use the quote function.  Learning to quote will make your posts more readable for the rest of us and thus, help you to make your points better.  Please utilize this feature.  Thanks. 
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: screwtape on May 22, 2013, 07:56:11 AM
I think you need to read the rest of that post. Someone else said the same thign and I have given my reply to him if you wish to read it. 

I did.  It did not improve your original explanation.  IN a lot of ways, it made it worse. For example, you said something about souls.  That puts the cart before the horse.  I see no reason to believe in souls.

Quote
You are trying to say losing is limb is somehow irrelevant or doesn't happen because you think there is an "afterlife".
I said none of those things.

Incorrect.  You said all of those things:

The body we have are temporary.
The soul is what goes to God and not this body.
The soul is not handicapped in any way since it cannot be burnt, made wet or cut apart.
The soul is eternal and real to those who believe and so there are no amputees.

All that corresponds with what I said.  It is also preposterous.  There are amputees. To say there are not is not just wrong, but insensitive.

You need to take a step back and take a deep breath. Lets not along this line of false accusation.

Let me give you this piece of advice:  it's probably not a good idea to tell people what they need to do.  Particularly when it is not actually a necessity.  Even more particularly when you are telling someone to "take a deep breath".  I find it offensive.

The accusation is not false.  I believe it is an accurate paraphrase of your position.  If you disagree, you should explain where the differences are.


Im sure youre trying to make some kind of point here :) But what I would say to you is that if you have experienced  Harry Potter helping you in someway and you consider him to be your chosen deity then certainly he will be real to you. There is no doubt about it. You should continue to worship him if you experience him :)

Congratulations.  You have just endorsed delusional thinking and any mental illness that involves halucinations.  When you say Harry Potter will be real to me, you are saying he exists in my imagination.  Why do think it is a good idea to encourage people to deify figments of their imagination?

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: epidemic on May 22, 2013, 11:31:15 AM
Oh that is simple.   If you want risk vs reward.   Make non believers more subject to aweful lives.   Let the faithful god fearing man die quietly in his sleep decades beyond the tortured lives lead by atheists and followers of the wrong religions.

Now you still have risk vs reward and you also don't have to torture your faithful.   Each time they sin have bad things happen to them.  Sorta like a dogs shock collar.  As humans we will see these patterns and realize that false religions are false and that god is absolutely real.  It still even requires faith.  Faith that it was not random circumstances that made bad things happen to bad people.

As it is now.  there are wealthy happy atheists and poor tortured devout followers and every flavor in between.  Statistically the religious among us still have about the same mortality stats, pain stats, loss of loved ones before their time, cancer rates, murder rates...

Well that is but for the fact that I have read that atheists have lower encarceration rates per capita by religion.




Think about it in 3rd person - I think ultimately (if) there is only one God (which I am convinced that there is), and he made the entire universe, I think that the only option left is for the people who He made to trust Him and in His greater purpose. What say do they have? Remember (if) my God is real (which I believe He is), he made both pleasure and pain. Why? Why didn't he just make pain?

Risk/reward - I have absolutely nothing to lose.

If this is all that you have ever, for all eternity - this existence - what are you doing in this forum? Don't you want to spend your last breaths enjoying everything you can in this life as there won't be anything after?

I, of course, don't think this way and I think that anyone who takes a leap of faith in this miraculous guy named Jesus will live forever in His kingdom.

But your risk/reward is far greater than my risk/reward. No matter what I happens after I die, I win! If I am right, I win. If I am wrong, who cares?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Astreja on May 22, 2013, 12:36:39 PM
Congratulations.  You have just endorsed delusional thinking and any mental illness that involves hallucinations.  When you say Harry Potter will be real to me, you are saying he exists in my imagination.  Why do think it is a good idea to encourage people to deify figments of their imagination?

I think it could possibly have some valid psychological function in a Jungian sense, perhaps as a deliberately formulated alternate "voice" to assist in problem-solving.  However, if your imagination conjures up an uncontrolled Other and you cannot see or accept yourself as the creator of that entity, IMO you've definitely crossed into something psychologically undesirable.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on May 24, 2013, 03:28:15 AM
All I can say is ‘seek and you shall find’. This I do believe.

You sound like a fast talking salesman at my front door - making claims that you can't backup with evidence. It's an irrational and nonsensical claim this "seek and ye shall find" b/c many of us DID seek and DID NOT find anything (except that religion is bullshit and based in irrational reasoning).

How do you know "seek and ye shall find"?? It's because you read it in the bible and have ASSUMED what you read was true, out of credulity (because you so desperately WANTED to believe). But that isn't a good reason. It's called being gullible and lazy.

What you are saying is exactly the reason why God does not appear.
God generally does not interfere in the lives of humans. If he did then we would all be robots. We all have free will not mention, we have the karma to account for.

How do you know we would all be robots? Who convinced you of this? A pastor, minister, rabbi, or sheik? This is just assuming your position in advance again, without showing HOW you know it's true. On the contrary, a God appearing would not in anyway make us robots. Plenty of people could call this God an asshole and refuse to submit. Sorry, your argument fails. Further, how do you know we have freewill? Just because something SEEMS a certain way (to you) doesn't make it true. There is, and has been, much debate over the subject of freewill. You didn't know that?

God has made it clear that on this earth we are born to both suffer and enjoy.

Please stop making empty claims and start demonstrating how you think you know these things.


What I would say is that people have experiences that are beyond explanations and these are what we term as god experiences.

How do you know they are beyond explanation? This is just another empty claim you are making, and it is quite intellectually lazy. Do you really care whether your beliefs are actually true? Are you at all interested in practicing critical thinking in order to separate fact from fiction?

History teaches  the same. For example taking the Moses story where God parted the sea—clearly God showed himself through an amazing miracle. Now what we find next is equally amazing. Instead of the people becoming religious and worshipping God on hands and knees, they actually become something totally opposite. They become corrupt and ‘mad’.
Basically if we consider this story real then we can see what would happen.

And once again you are being gullible - believing everything you read in old books because someone SOLD you the idea. They convinced you and you accepted it, uncritically. What makes you think this Moses story is true? Why do you think anything supernatural the bible claims is authoritative or true?

So its better for God to remain ‘visible’ to only those who truly wants to see him.

So you admit then that you are only seeing what you want to see?

Second example --- Look what happened to Jesus (I know perhaps you may not believe he is real; but let imagine he was real). Even after  many people saw his miracles, many just turned away and went against him instead! How odd is that.

You're right. I don't think Jesus is (or was) real. And so there is no reason for thinking what the bible says about him is true either (including your argument about people who saw miracles and still "went against him"). The claims are ALL rubbish and there is no good reason to think they are anything more than mythical story telling.

To be honest this is what would happen to God if he did appear today.
No amount of his explaining will convince millions to worship him.
So should God really perform miracles –yes in exceptional cases where he thinks fit and NO—not for the disbeliveers or to quench some curiosity?

Your bible is filled with places where (supposedly) God did a miracle to cause someone to believe. Read your bible!! It seems you do not know what you're talking about here. You do not know what would happen if some God appeared. But what about the angles?! Allegedly, they are in God's presence (including Satan) and guess what?? They still worship him!! And, they (supposedly) have freewill!! Your arguments just don't work.

Karma is difficult to explain here since its neither good or bad. 

No, Karma is difficult for you to explain because it's simply false. There is no reason for thinking there is any such supernatural thing.

I also said I experienced God and this is the reason for my firmness in God. But equally I cannot prove God to others. I can show them way =s so that they too may experience –but I have refrained from saying that.

How do you know you have 'experienced God'?? Subjective/internal human experiences are highly prone to misinterpretation, false diagnoses, and confirmation bias. Do you know what those are? Reinterpreting emotions, feelings, thoughts, are attitudes as "God" doesn't make it a god.

God speaks to you. I believe in a God who is real, who speaks to me and walks and talks with me. Whether you consider that is weird or madness is your choice. But whats important to me is how I see God. I am trying to explain God but without proof I fall flat like everyone else. So all I can ask you to do ‘seek and you shall find’ for yourself.

You sound just like a 5 year old who claims to have an 'invisible friend' who he talks to but can't demonstrate. If God speaks to you then prove it! Demonstrate something miraculous through this "God" speaking to you.

Second, thanks for admitting that you don't have proof (i.e. - evidence) of your God. So, why are you believing in this "thing" when you have no solid evidence for it?
 

What is the mind?
This is beyond my ability to explain to you –so I would urge you to do some research on the websites. Google “Hindu mind” or something and hope you get the answers.
http://hinduism.about.com/od/bookextracts/a/mind.htm (http://hinduism.about.com/od/bookextracts/a/mind.htm)

http://www.hinduism.co.za/mind1.htm (http://www.hinduism.co.za/mind1.htm)

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/mind.asp (http://www.hinduwebsite.com/mind.asp)

I've already done my research. I actually hold two college degrees pertaining to these subjects (i.e. - Philosophy). There is much scholarly debate over what the mind actually is. Did you know that?

http://consc.net/guide.html

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on May 24, 2013, 06:33:54 PM

{Though I'm not seeing any compelling reasons for your beliefs...}
{I can't even understand why you'd believe in an invisible, do-nothing, acts non-existence being.}


Aaron123


When certain events in your life suddenly goes your way most unexpectedly–you begin to wonder—especially after you have prayed for the change and the change took place –as if by some miracle—God helped me out of an impossible situation.

My mind says --It can be nothing else but from God—having grown up and believing in God.
There is no proof for me to show you but how can an experience be shown. It can be discussed and you might come up with some theory of coincidence etc, but they are just your theory and not any different to me theory that God did it.

Therefore I ask you to sincerely and with humility pray to God, not because out of some curiosity but out of sincerer belief.



Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on May 24, 2013, 06:35:54 PM

{what is the difference between when he does a miracle, and when he doesn't?}


Aaron123

God does miracle because we normally ask him to intervene. A child begging to his father for some toy or chocolate or help getting a ball down from the roof; or help him with a loan, or by a house etc the father cannot do anything but help since the request is sincere.
Does that mean God wont help the son who doesn’t like him. A true father will always help him out when asked to and sometimes even when not. The parable of the prodigal son sums it up I guess.

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on May 24, 2013, 06:37:45 PM

[[[I found nothing.]]]
[[That sounded like you were suggusting that we'd all become mindless worshippers. ]]]
[[[How can I be certain what my reaction will be until god actually does appears before me?]]]

Aaron123

Humility will go a long way to achieving any kind of result.


Talk to someone with arrogance, ego, know it all attitude, anger and talk to someone with humility, kindness, love etc and the difference in the responses is clear. This is the difference between seeing god and not seeing god. 

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on May 24, 2013, 06:39:39 PM
I'll only comment on the parts directed at me.


[[It is again, telling me why I shouldn't expect anything from god.  Which is the very same as a non-existence god.]]]


Aaron123
 
Those who want nothing will get nothing.
Those who believe will get a lot—Inspiration, a peace of mind. How to live, how to cope with sickness, violence, injustice, truth, joy. Love

Hope when there is no hope. Someone to talk to. Someone to turn to. Moral guidance. charity, a shoulder to cry on and lot more.

Probably a non-worshipper may get all these same from a good Hollywood movie. A fiction and non-fiction books, fairytales, quotes, people they see around them etc.

So whether you believe in God or not the imagination is always used. So nothing wrong in believing in God then. 

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on May 24, 2013, 06:40:47 PM
Aaron123

India has a history of spiritual teachers appearing in every age to guide humans about how to live a good life by seeking God.
Many of these spiritual ‘personalities’ have seen God and were always confidence to say it and the people who were around at the time wrote stories and teachings by them. I don’t mean your normal everyday yoga teachers but the real Gurus who were equal in calibre to Jesus.

I mention this for only one reason.
The proof that God exist is proof in their words and actions and teachings. How can I ignore such Gurus?
I have no reason to doubt their words and I have no reason to call them liars. They never bothered to set up movements or created a religion of their own, but naturally followers do make them into great personalities and a sect eventually does grow up after them.
Sai Baba of Shirdi,
Swaminrayan
Ramakrishna Paramhansa,
Jalaram Bapu,
Adi Shankaracharya
Dnyaneshwar
Eknath
Tukaram

These names might mean nothing t you but I wanted to leave you with some names and if you wish you may research about them on the internet.

Then there are other Gurus who are simply great and very learned Teachers.
We don’t have ‘Saints’ and ‘Prophets’. In my opinion.



Then we have the amazing book called “Autobiography of a Yogi” which gives an insight into the lives of Yogis and the miracles they perform and how it works and even shows us their experience of God.
How can I ignore this book which gives me proof of humans who have had great God experiences and seen God.
This book can be read online if you are interested.
Again I mention this because you all ask How can I believe I God.


Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on May 24, 2013, 06:44:19 PM
I think you need to read the rest of that post. Someone else said the same thign and I have given my reply to him if you wish to read it. 




Quote
  [[All that corresponds with what I said.  It is also preposterous.  There are amputees. To say there are not is not just wrong, but insensitive.]]] 


screwtape


You still misunderstand and misinterpret. The soul is perfect. The body is not. There are no amputee in the soul world. The body is subject to pleasure and pain and we have to learn to live with them and this is what religion teaches us to do. To cope with life. Death of a body is not death to God because the person he knows is still alive and well (souls). Death and sickness is real to us and we seek prayers to God in helping us cope with them.
You have to understand our position of belief and not be closed to it. Then its easy to understand. Im trying to best understand your view point the best I can.


Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on May 24, 2013, 06:51:16 PM

[[[You sound like a fast talking salesman at my front door - making claims that you can't backup with evidence.]]]

median
Not at all. The proof is to try it yourself. Hence ‘seek and you shall find’.
This is not a sales trick but proof that you could try it yourself.
Off course --How to seek ---is a another question altogether.



(apologies if these quotes dont work out the way they should. Im still learning. First time Im using forums like this.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on May 24, 2013, 06:52:51 PM

[[religion is bullshit and based in irrational reasoning]]

 

median

In you humble opinion.
You cant deny or judge something based on your failures.

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on May 24, 2013, 06:54:49 PM

[[[It's because you read it in the bible]]] 

median

I am a Hindu but not that it makes a difference.  I just liked to use those words Jesus spoke because they are so true. As I have said, first you hear about God, then you read about God and finally when you experience God you know you have your proof. All these have happened to me and I cant deny my senses. There is no other logical explanation.

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: naemhni on May 24, 2013, 06:55:41 PM
Hello, Kiran, welcome to WWGHA.  My use of green boldface indicates that I am speaking as a moderator and not as a participant in the discussion.

You appear to be having some difficulty using the quoting function.  I suggest you use the "preview" button to ensure that your posts are appearing properly before you post them.  You might also want to use the "Test Area", which is set aside especially for fooling around with the various forum functions, such as quoting and embedding images, to make sure you know how to use them correctly.  The Test Area is here:


http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/board,28.0.html
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on May 24, 2013, 07:07:37 PM
[[How do you know we would all be robots?]]

median

That should have read like Robots.
If someone controls our every will then we are like ‘robots.’
That’s all that was meant by that. It was point made to say why God does not control us.









[[Further, how do you know we have freewill?]]

Even if everything was predestined (as many people sometimes  claim) then know that according to Hindu philosophy we still have free will to change the course of our destiny by what you do today. If your result of where you are today was because of your actions and thoughts in he past then just imagine how you be what you want to be in the future. 
You decide what and where you want to go.





[[I said --“God has made it clear that on this earth we are born to both suffer and enjoy.”
You are saying
Please stop making empty claims and start demonstrating how you think you know these things.]]
 

[[How do you know they are beyond explanation?]]

Trust me they are. You may choose to give it a name like coincidence or fate or luck or chance or whatever—but I choose to call it ‘help from God’—especially when I have asked for – ask and you shall receive. 





[[Are you at all interested in practicing critical thinking in order to separate fact from fiction?]]

OK so how is some grand explanation going to help me any differently? Fact or Fiction the difference to my life has been made.
People talk of freedom of ‘free will’ yet here you are directly and indirectly trying to control what I should be thinking and not thinking.

If your logic does let you believe in a God then Im not going to force you to believe. A question was asked and I responded. Please don’t compare me to those other preachers and people who try to convert others. Off course they are free to tell me about their way of life only if I am interested in listening. Likewise you don’t have to listen to what I believe.




[[What makes you think this Moses story is true?]]

That’s why I also gave a modern comparative about the after event of the Iran war where people went mad instead of celebrating freedom from bondage. Neither the Law of the land nor God in this instance was good enough to control many of them.






[[So you admit then that you are only seeing what you want to see?]] 


Yes –we all see ONLY what we want to see from our life experiences and beliefs and nature and level of understanding.









[[mythical story telling.]]


Mythical stories have been the backbones of many teachings for righteous living and morality. There is nothing wrong in that. You should try reading Hinduism.
Off course its not for everyone but its still valid in today’s society for millions because they are still inspired by these stories.








[[But what about the angles?! Allegedly, they are in God's presence (including Satan) and guess what?? They still worship him!! And, they (supposedly) have freewill!! Your arguments just don't work.]]


In Hinduism we don’t have satan but there were stories of powerful beings who used their powers for the bad. And yes these very powerful beings got their powers from God by asking him for it.
When a man worships him with a single pointed mind and devotion then he can do nothing but appear before that man (even though knowing that they will use the powers against him).
If a son begs from his mother for some money, the mother might guess that he will use it to buy drugs or  hopes he might not, but if the son is persistent enough, the mothers heart will melt and give him the money knowing the possible outcome.



Karma is not supernatural. It’s a simple Law that ‘every action has a reaction’.






[[Reinterpreting emotions, feelings, thoughts, are attitudes as "God" doesn't make it a god.]] 

OK lets say you are right. May be you are right.
But to me --it sure has helped me a lot in my life  --believing that these emotions, feelings, thoughts are ‘God experiences’.
Isn’t God wonderful?

 





[[If God speaks to you then prove it!]]

I just did. Im telling you about it. I cant connect you to my mind –yet! So you too can har him with me  (technology hasn’t yet a way of doing that—but Im sure they will oneday).

As I said before, we all get inspirations from somewhere-be it a Hollywood film or some fictional/non-fictional novel or some quotes or fairytales or life experiences.

Let me put it another way. I have a thought and I say that thought is God talking. You say its only your inner mind talking. At the end of the day—the thought does not change –whether God said it or the mind said it.




[[So, why are you believing in this "thing" when you have no solid evidence for it?]] 

Personal Experiences.




[[There is much scholarly debate over what the mind actually is. Did you know that?]]


Yes. The Hindu rishis debated this 5,000 years ago and set their conclusions is in the Vedas and Upanishads.
I have read only extracts of these great works. 

So many links again Im sure if you Google ‘Hindu thought on the mind’



[[I actually hold two college degrees]]
One does not require many degrees to seek God or know God or hear God.
Simple prayers will suffice. 



Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on May 24, 2013, 07:12:17 PM
Thank you pianodwarf

I'll experiment first.
I havent used anythign like this at all and its all new to me.
My apologies.


But you'll have to forgive me if I still get it wrong :) and I may have to leave this forum :(.
(at least I can do the smily faces :) right )

Kiran

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: naemhni on May 24, 2013, 07:15:39 PM
Thank you pianodwarf

I'll experiment first.
I havent used anythign like this at all and its all new to me.
My apologies.

No trouble at all... the code can be a little tricky to learn.  If you need help, don't be afraid to ask.  If I'm not available, someone else will certainly show you how it works.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: shnozzola on May 24, 2013, 08:10:40 PM
Kiran,
 I may have missed it.  How do you define god? - for you - what do you picture the god you believe in to be?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: The Gawd on May 24, 2013, 08:51:14 PM
Kiran is Hindu...
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Bereft_of_Faith on May 25, 2013, 12:32:53 AM
Oh that is simple.   If you want risk vs reward.   Make non believers more subject to aweful lives.   Let the faithful god fearing man die quietly in his sleep decades beyond the tortured lives lead by atheists and followers of the wrong religions. [snipped]

Note:  'God' used to do this... Tower of Babel, Snakes at Mt Sini, Pillar of salt.  The bible tells of the direct effect of sinning, and demonstrates god's wrath.  Why'd he stop?  (answer: He didn't.  Those are just stories.  'God' never did anything  :).  I'm pretty sure you're aware of that, but I just wanted to emphasize it)
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Aaron123 on May 25, 2013, 01:18:40 AM
When certain events in your life suddenly goes your way most unexpectedly–you begin to wonder—especially after you have prayed for the change and the change took place –as if by some miracle—God helped me out of an impossible situation.

This is just an argument from incredulity.

Quote
My mind says --It can be nothing else but from God—having grown up and believing in God.
There is no proof for me to show you but how can an experience be shown. It can be discussed and you might come up with some theory of coincidence etc, but they are just your theory and not any different to me theory that God did it.

Argument from incredulity.

Try this link if you're unfamilar with the expression.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity

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Therefore I ask you to sincerely and with humility pray to God, not because out of some curiosity but out of sincerer belief.

I do not have belief in your god, or any other.  Thus, it is impossible for me to pray "sincerely".  Mind you, I could do the act of prayer, but to me, it would be little more than talking to the air.  I'm not trying to be smarmy here, that's actually how it would be for me.


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God does miracle because we normally ask him to intervene. A child begging to his father for some toy or chocolate or help getting a ball down from the roof; or help him with a loan, or by a house etc the father cannot do anything but help since the request is sincere.
Does that mean God wont help the son who doesn’t like him. A true father will always help him out when asked to and sometimes even when not. The parable of the prodigal son sums it up I guess.

This doesn't answer the question I asked.  At one point, you appeared to be saying that god's mircales are undetectable.  That being the case, what's the difference between when he does, and doesn't do one?


Quote
Humility will go a long way to achieving any kind of result.


Talk to someone with arrogance, ego, know it all attitude, anger and talk to someone with humility, kindness, love etc and the difference in the responses is clear. This is the difference between seeing god and not seeing god. 

This has nothing to do with the quotes of mine that you're "responding" to.  I put "responding" in quotetation marks because, well... you didn't really address the points I was making.


Quote
Those who want nothing will get nothing.
Those who believe will get a lot—Inspiration, a peace of mind. How to live, how to cope with sickness, violence, injustice, truth, joy. Love

Hope when there is no hope. Someone to talk to. Someone to turn to. Moral guidance. charity, a shoulder to cry on and lot more.

Probably a non-worshipper may get all these same from a good Hollywood movie. A fiction and non-fiction books, fairytales, quotes, people they see around them etc.

So whether you believe in God or not the imagination is always used. So nothing wrong in believing in God then. 

This does nothing to address the quote of mine that you're "responding" to.


Quote
India has a history of spiritual teachers appearing in every age to guide humans about how to live a good life by seeking God.
Many of these spiritual ‘personalities’ have seen God and were always confidence to say it and the people who were around at the time wrote stories and teachings by them. I don’t mean your normal everyday yoga teachers but the real Gurus who were equal in calibre to Jesus.

What does "seen god" means?


Quote
I mention this for only one reason.
The proof that God exist is proof in their words and actions and teachings. How can I ignore such Gurus?
I have no reason to doubt their words and I have no reason to call them liars. They never bothered to set up movements or created a religion of their own, but naturally followers do make them into great personalities and a sect eventually does grow up after them.

In short, your credulity was out in full force.  Nothing was done to double-check or verifiy their words.


Quote
Then we have the amazing book called “Autobiography of a Yogi” which gives an insight into the lives of Yogis and the miracles they perform and how it works and even shows us their experience of God.
How can I ignore this book which gives me proof of humans who have had great God experiences and seen God.


What is meant by "miracles" and "experience of god"?  Seems to me that you should be explaining these things here.  Though at this point, I can't say I'm expecting much.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: shnozzola on May 25, 2013, 11:39:52 AM
Kiran is Hindu...

Yes.  From what I understand, Hindu belief in a god can be expressed as "god is the entire universe" to a chosen personal god, such as Krishna.  Am I correct?

I was wondering how Kiran defines god.  Funny how, even within religions, we determine what choice we make as a definition.  Probably, even different practicing Hindus may surprise each other with their own definition, even without judgement.   Oh well, probably should be a separate thread anyway.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: JesseWSellers on May 25, 2013, 12:02:11 PM
How do you KNOW that God doesn't heal amputees?  The only way you could know this is if you were to investigate every amputee who has ever lived and is now living, to determine whether or not God has healed them.  The assumption is, because you don't know of any amputees that God has healed, He doesn't heal amputees. Secondly, how do you define "heal"?  In your apparently narrow definition, "heal" seems to mean "restore that which was amputated."  However, can "healing" not be brought about in other ways?  I can think of several off the top of my head.  Since I am new here, and this is only my third post, I will reserve further discussion for a later time and post, but I do see bit of "begging the question" in the contention that God doesn't heal amputees, therefore there is no God.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: naemhni on May 25, 2013, 12:50:23 PM
How do you KNOW that God doesn't heal amputees?

Strictly speaking, we don't.  However, since there have been no documented cases of it occurring, we simply presuppose that it doesn't happen; it's a safe assumption to make.  If any contrary evidence ever arises, we will certainly examine it.  The fact that almost no one ever has come along and said, "Yes, God does too heal amputees!" is also a pretty clear indication that it doesn't happen.  The handful of people who have attempted to make that claim have basically fallen into two camps: 1) people offering personal anecdotes without any evidence, and 2) people referring to the so-called "Miracle of Calanda", which was a hoax.

Quote
Secondly, how do you define "heal"?  In your apparently narrow definition, "heal" seems to mean "restore that which was amputated."

That is the context in which the question is specifically asked here, yes: restoring an amputated limb.  I take it you haven't read the main site yet (for which I don't fault you; it's a long read, to be sure).  In that site, the author states quite explicitly that restoration of amputated limbs is the definition of "heal" that he is using.

Welcome to WWGHA.  Some friendly (and, I hope, helpful) advice: you appear to be a believer, and as such, you may find yourself overwhelmed with responses from atheists, who are in the majority here.  If so, please don't be afraid to speak up and say that you need a little time to take your breath so you can catch up.  We'd rather see you do that then have you feel like you need to leave due to being swamped, which happens far too often.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Aaron123 on May 25, 2013, 02:58:57 PM
How do you KNOW that God doesn't heal amputees? 

Strictly speaking, we don't.  But the thing is; there is no verified, documented cases of an amputee being healed.

It's kinda like how we don't "KNOW" that microwaves do not talk while we're not home.



Quote
The only way you could know this is if you were to investigate every amputee who has ever lived and is now living, to determine whether or not God has healed them.  The assumption is, because you don't know of any amputees that God has healed, He doesn't heal amputees.


This is nothing more than an argument from ignorant.

How can you know that microwaves do not talk?  The only way to know is to investigate every microwave that has ever existed and mointer every second of their existence.  The assumption is, because you don't know of any microwaves that talks, that none of them ever talk.


Now, strictly speaking, the above statement is correct, but you also have to determine how likely it is, and whenever there's any good reasons to think it might be true.  There is no verified, documented cases of microwaves talking, so it's considered extrememly unlikely, and there is, thus far, no good reasons to think it might be true.  The same goes for your god.  No verified, documented cases of god-healed amputees, no good reasons to think it happens.  If things were to change, then our takes on the subject would start to change.


Quote
Secondly, how do you define "heal"?  In your apparently narrow definition, "heal" seems to mean "restore that which was amputated."
 

On the main site, that is how "heal" is being defined in this context.  As far as I can tell, everyone here has this definition in mind.


Quote
However, can "healing" not be brought about in other ways?  I can think of several off the top of my head.  Since I am new here, and this is only my third post, I will reserve further discussion for a later time and post, but I do see bit of "begging the question" in the contention that God doesn't heal amputees, therefore there is no God.

Well, hopefully, you'll stick around long enough to give us your take on the matter.  Though I think it's only fair to warn you, most of the people here will not be enthralled if you try for a "spirital healing" explaination.  Such a thing will be dismissed as little more than "a coping mechanism", and they'll tell you that it doesn't demostrate that your god exists.

I don't know if that's what you had in mind, but you might want to think twice before using it.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: screwtape on May 25, 2013, 03:18:49 PM
You still misunderstand and misinterpret.

I promise you, I don't.  The problem is, you are saying things you do not understand and have not thought through.  You are using words to mean things other than what they are commonly accepted to mean.

Let me tell you, my little friend, I did not become an atheist on a whim.  I have studied and researched the ideas people have had about gods for a long time.  I've looked at xianity, islam, judaism, buddhism, sikhism and hinduism.  I've read large parts of the bible, the koran, the upanishads, the vedas, and the bhagivad gita.  You are not saying anything to me I've not heard before.

The soul is perfect. The body is not.

Demonstrate the former.  Please provide me with a soul I can examine for imperfection.  Also, I'll need a definition of perfection.

This is what I mean when I say you don't know what you are talking about and obviously have not thought it through.  Rather, you are saying things considered to be deep, but are really just trivial at best.  "The soul is perfect" is meaningless unless we know what a soul is and what perfection means.  You may as well have written "the gronk is blurple".  Both sentences have as much meaning.   

There are no amputee in the soul world.

Oh really?  How do you know this?  How can we verify this? 

You don't know this and there is no way to verify it.  Thus, you are talking out your ass.

The body is subject to pleasure and pain and we have to learn to live with them and this is what religion teaches us to do.

?  Religion does nothing of the sort.  Religion has two functions.  First it is a conservative mechanism in a culture.  It serves to describe a culture and pass it on under the auspices of it being "what the gods demand of us".  Second, it is a collection of superstitions defining the so-called relationship between those gods and the people who believe in them. 

If you think religion does anything else, please make your case.

Death of a body is not death to God because the person he knows is still alive and well (souls).

You have made a claim without any attempt to provide evidence that your claim is true.  As such it is considered to be preaching.  Not only is preaching against the site rules, it is rude.  Unfortunately many, many theists who come here do not realize what they are doing.  Now you know.  No need to thank me.  Just do better, please.

Death and sickness is real to us and we seek prayers to God in helping us cope with them.

The whole entire point of this site is praying to god does absolutely nothing to help cope with them.  Rather than address the points made on the side, you just repeat your claims all over again, as if I am unfamiliar with them and do not understand what you mean. 


You have to understand our position of belief and not be closed to it.

I do understand it.  I once held it.  It is an ignorant and delusional position.  I do not have to be open to ignorance and delusion.  That would be stupid of me to do.  Telling me I have to be open to it does not improve your reputation.

Im trying to best understand your view point the best I can.

I really don't think you are. 
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: screwtape on May 25, 2013, 03:27:24 PM

Yes.  From what I understand, Hindu belief in a god can be expressed as "god is the entire universe" to a chosen personal god, such as Krishna.  Am I correct?

yes and no.  The universe is an illusion (maya).  Reality is that we are all a "spark of the divine" - little pieces of god (Brahman) that have broken off and are confused and think we are our own individuals.  This is even true of the hindu gods.  While there may seem to be Brahma, vishnu, shiva, and about a thousand others, they are also confused.  They are all really just aspects of the one being, brahman.  Once we can see that we are all really one, really a part of god, then we can achieve enlightenment.  Until then, brahmins get to treat everyone like shit.

Also, Krishna is not a god, exactly.  Krishna was an avatar of vishnu.

I don't know if that is kiran's take, but that is pretty standard hindu thought as I understand it.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: The Gawd on May 25, 2013, 05:42:59 PM
How do you KNOW that God doesn't heal amputees?  The only way you could know this is if you were to investigate every amputee who has ever lived and is now living, to determine whether or not God has healed them.  The assumption is, because you don't know of any amputees that God has healed, He doesn't heal amputees. Secondly, how do you define "heal"?  In your apparently narrow definition, "heal" seems to mean "restore that which was amputated."  However, can "healing" not be brought about in other ways?  I can think of several off the top of my head.  Since I am new here, and this is only my third post, I will reserve further discussion for a later time and post, but I do see bit of "begging the question" in the contention that God doesn't heal amputees, therefore there is no God.

WHOA!!!

you took a major leap there broham. The correct leap, but taking the steps is important. The question is WHY wont god heal amputees. We can assert that because there are no amputees being healed (ie limbs coming back). This is in stark contrast to "healing cancer" where we are told all the time that god does this, or helps you find a parking spot. So, unless you are saying god DOES heal amputees we are certainly open to the example of this, we would be justified in saying he does not. So WHY does god not heal amputees. From there you can build your way to the logical and obvious answer that yahweh (in this instance) does not exist.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Nam on May 26, 2013, 07:33:56 AM
How do you KNOW that God doesn't heal amputees?  The only way you could know this is if you were to investigate every amputee who has ever lived and is now living, to determine whether or not God has healed them.

Wrong. You look at current and past evidence. Past evidence shows photographs, from wars, where there were many thousands of people who were never healed and current evidence that shows none are healed as well.

Quote
The assumption is, because you don't know of any amputees that God has healed, He doesn't heal amputees.

Again wrong. There's no evidence.

Quote
Secondly, how do you define "heal"?  In your apparently narrow definition, "heal" seems to mean "restore that which was amputated."  However, can "healing" not be brought about in other ways?  I can think of several off the top of my head.  Since I am new here, and this is only my third post, I will reserve further discussion for a later time and post, but I do see bit of "begging the question" in the contention that God doesn't heal amputees, therefore there is no God.

But that's not just what the Bible says. Have you read it? Apparently not.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on May 26, 2013, 12:48:15 PM

[[religion is bullshit and based in irrational reasoning]]

 

median

In you humble opinion.
You cant deny or judge something based on your failures.

Once again, that is YOUR failure - your mere ASSUMPTION that I am judging religion based upon "my failures". NOPE! I'm judging religion based upon it's theological claims, it's texts, and it's effects.

Your credulity does not stand in just judgment of my rational mind - seeing as how you are willing to use every form of gullibility in sheep's clothing to mask the flaws in your attempts at reasoning. FAILURE is where you began - in that you STARTED with a credulous conclusion regarding your religion (backwards thinking) and then began trying to interpret all evidence in it's favor. Intellectual integrity, for you, it seems has no merit.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on May 26, 2013, 12:53:58 PM

[[[It's because you read it in the bible]]] 

median

I am a Hindu but not that it makes a difference.  I just liked to use those words Jesus spoke because they are so true. As I have said, first you hear about God, then you read about God and finally when you experience God you know you have your proof. All these have happened to me and I cant deny my senses. There is no other logical explanation.

WRONG! You just demonstrated the logical fallacy called The Argument from Incredulity (aka - The Argument from Ignorance - which is fallacious and unsound). THERE ARE in fact many other explanations. ALL of which are far more likely than the ASSUMPTION you made (which is based in your gullibility - which ultimately has it's roots in your upbringing and societal pressures).

Yes THERE ARE other logical explanations (one of them being that you had a misapprehension and that your senses failed you, or that you interpreted your "experience" mistakenly). The very LAST explanation to go to would be the supernatural one - NOT the first one.

You are being gullible and superstitious.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on May 26, 2013, 01:39:08 PM
That should have read like Robots.
If someone controls our every will then we are like ‘robots.’
That’s all that was meant by that. It was point made to say why God does not control us.

WRONG AGAIN. No, that is NOT what you said [but nice try]. You said,

"What you are saying is exactly the reason why God does not appear. God generally does not interfere in the lives of humans. If he did then we would all be robots.

That claim is just plain false. A deity God "thing" could show up right now and I might STILL choose to say "FUCK YOU ASSHOLE!" - due to his murderous ways in the bible etc. So I would STILL have freewill, regardless of whether or not this god showed up or not. So again, your claim is just plain mistaken.


Even if everything was predestined (as many people sometimes  claim) then know that according to Hindu philosophy we still have free will to change the course of our destiny by what you do today. If your result of where you are today was because of your actions and thoughts in he past then just imagine how you be what you want to be in the future. 
You decide what and where you want to go.

Now you are changing the subject (red-herring). You made the claim that you think we all have "freewill". I think you are mistaken (in definition) - and I don't think you have actually studied the arguments for/against freewill enough to actually discuss the subject and know what you are talking about. As you've done since the beginning, YOU ASSUME what freewill is. That is another mistake.


Trust me they are. You may choose to give it a name like coincidence or fate or luck or chance or whatever—but I choose to call it ‘help from God’—especially when I have asked for – ask and you shall receive. 

That is exactly your problem. YOU ARE GULLIBLE!!! You chose to interpret this alleged experience as "God" because you STARTED with your conclusion first (before investigating) - and that is backwards.

And no, I will not just "trust" you. That is what every gullible religious person does - ASSUMES! You are making assumptions instead of doing investigation.

That is CREDULITY! Plain and simple.



OK so how is some grand explanation going to help me any differently? Fact or Fiction the difference to my life has been made.
People talk of freedom of ‘free will’ yet here you are directly and indirectly trying to control what I should be thinking and not thinking. 

NOPE. You are wrong again. How could anybody 'control' your thoughts?? You just don't like being challenged. I'm trying to get you to THINK LOGICALLY (aka - to be rational and not so gullible). So far, you haven't shown that you have any good way for separating fact from fiction.

Beliefs have consequences, sir. You don't live alone on an island.


If your logic does let you believe in a God then Im not going to force you to believe. A question was asked and I responded. Please don’t compare me to those other preachers and people who try to convert others. Off course they are free to tell me about their way of life only if I am interested in listening. Likewise you don’t have to listen to what I believe.

And you don't have to use irrational arguments to support your view. You couldn't "force" me to believe even if you wanted to, because belief doesn't work that way. One must be CONVINCED (by rational or irrational reasons).


Yes –we all see ONLY what we want to see from our life experiences and beliefs and nature and level of understanding.

I'm glad that you have admitted that you are only seeing what you want to see, in regards to your religion (and ignoring the things that do not support your view) - thanks for admitting Confirmation Bias - but your claim is still false. We DO NOT always only see what we want to see - and being in denial doesn't change facts. You have the right to your own opinion, but you DO NOT have the right to your own facts.

This is why faith is useless and bullshit. It is not a pathway to truth. Anyone can just "have faith" in any bullshit claim (because they desperately WANT to believe) but that does nothing to help us separate fact from fiction. All it shows is that you are gullible and credulous.




Mythical stories have been the backbones of many teachings for righteous living and morality. There is nothing wrong in that. You should try reading Hinduism.
Off course its not for everyone but its still valid in today’s society for millions because they are still inspired by these stories.

Thank you, again, for admitting that your beliefs are based on myth. But I prefer reality over fiction. Now, if ALL you are claiming is that the religion you believe in is FALSE, but helpful then fine - but we don't see that happening in the real world. We see people with false religions, voting, putting other religious people in office, trying to rule our lives based on those false beliefs, etc etc. It DOES effect us.

Again, beliefs have consequences for all of us - especially false beliefs.


I will answer the rest later...







Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on May 29, 2013, 04:51:08 PM
Questions have come different people and I think its going to be easy for me write my opinions on them here.

Please forgive my simplistic English language used because this is the level of my ability to write.
I am also sorry if my ‘points’ were not made in the right forum and since the questions kept on coming .......

1]
Often we read and hear about the things we have not seen or tasted or experienced. That does not mean those things are unreal. It just means we have not seen or tasted or experienced these things yet.

Many of you have heard of the land called India. Some of you have read about it and may be some of you even experienced it by going there. But you often believe what is told about India whether it’s a true picture of the land or not.

Similarly we hear about God and many of us believe what we are told.
Just because I cant show you God or a soul –does not mean it does not exist.
This is indirect proof. The direct proof is as I keep saying is to seek Him yourself in the right manner.


2] Some of you keep using this word ‘incredulity’.
This is nothing more than a ‘random’ word (because there are others like imagination, hallucination, dreaming etc) to deny the proof that stares you in the face. If you are not willing to ‘seek’ then how do you expect to find the answer?

I ask you to taste an apple but you refuse then how will you know what it taste like? How can you call me a liar. How can you say there is no such thing as an apple.

I also keep reading that some of you have tried to seek and found nothing.
I say this is simply your failure.
Your Failure is not a lack of my evidence of God


Scientist of the days gone by had real trouble trying to convince the so called ‘know it all’ people of their time of certain theories and scientific discoveries. They were even accused of witchcraft!
I don’t see any different happening on this forum.
Instead we get indirect swearing at God and even direct mocking of the believers.

Trying to justify each of answer with a hollow word like ‘incredulity’ means nothing to me.

God exist because ‘I believe’
God exist because ‘I exist’. 
   



3] Why do we fail to see God?
[[BG 11.8: But you cannot see Me with your present eyes. Therefore I give you divine eyes. Behold My mystic opulence!]]

This is why meditation and yoga and prayers and good conduct are required so that we too might get the divine insight.




4]
Hindus often see God in three ways according to their understanding.
God --Brahman – residing everywhere
God -- Antaryami – residing within
God -- Bhagavan – residing outside, beyond
 
God is described as ‘sat-chit-anada’
Sat=Truth, Existence or Pure Being,
Chit meaning Consciousness and
Ananda meaning Bliss.

These are emotions not unique to Hinduisms alone. God is experienced by the majority of the world’s population through ‘sat-chit-anada’. The human consciousness experiences the Truth via meditation or prayers or reading or service to the poor, charity work in the name of god, some ‘miracle’ they believe has occurred etc but in all cases they feel the bliss in some ways .


How do I see God?
I see him as residing everywhere, ie if everything pervades from God then surely he is all. A more personal part of him resides in me –residing within.
He is therefore inside and outside and beyond.

I worship Lord Krishna.
Krishna according to the scriptures is the One GOD that we all seek.
He is not a demi-god but the Supreme God who came to earth in human form.
Krishna describes himself in all his glory in chapter 9 onwards in the Bhagvad Gita.
http://vedabase.net/bg/9/en

If the light of a thousand suns were to blaze forth all at once in the sky, that might resemble the splendor of that exalted Being. (11:12)




5] The Hindu scriptures focuses a lot on the choices we make (Dharma) [Actions and Duty]. The choices we make results in how our life is shaped and even others around us.
The point being that I choose to believe in God and is a choice I have made.
Istn it strange that millions and millions around the world have chosen this too?
I think thats more then sufficient for proof of God-- whether you choose to ignore it.

Off course I know you all want physical proof. But just imagine all these people dont want physical proof yet they believe.
Its something to think about and certainly not mock.


I also note from some of the answers that perhaps some of you are angry or resent religion and God for whatever reasons. Well it seems to come across that way.

I can however understand that especially when all the evil things that has been done in the name of God. Totally understandable.


I mention this because in my providing some proof and in your trying to grasp that proof, this anger and resentment seems to get in the way.
Off course I might be totally wrong and apologise.






Enquiry on SOULS

6] The Hindu scripture Bhagvad Gita recognises the fact that some people will not believe what they read.
 
BG 2.29: Some look on the soul as amazing, some describe him as amazing, and some hear of him as amazing, while others, even after hearing about him, cannot understand him at all.




7] Hindu scriptures describes in details from those who have experimented, experienced and meditated upon it and discovered what it is. I have no reason to disbelieve what they tell me.
It seems to make a lot of sense to me and I accept it. 

I have no reason to doubt they are wrong or lies. It will perhaps also answer some questions about the soul raised in questions.   

BG 2:16: Those who are seers of the truth have concluded that of the nonexistent [the material body] there is no endurance and of the eternal [the soul] there is no change. This they have concluded by studying the nature of both.
Bhagvad Gita (BG).   

BG 2:18:- No one is able to destroy that imperishable soul.

BG 2.20: For the soul … is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain.

BG 2.23: The soul can never be cut to pieces by any weapon, nor burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind.

BG 2.24: This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, present everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same.

BG 2.25: It is said that the soul is invisible, inconceivable and immutable. Knowing this, you should not grieve for the body.


If you do not believe-- then God is not for you, but Im sure some of the lessons in the scriptures are for us all.
 




8]
This paragraph from the internet explains vividly about the soul
Eg
http://veda.wikidot.com/self


Again you might discard all this as jargon and not proof.

Well as I said, we sometimes believe about things we have not heard of before, yet when it comes to God we seem to have a mental block.

I can only talk of God from what others have written about him, more importantly experienced and finally my own personal experiences.
 


9]
LIFE AFTER DEATH TOLD BY SOMEONE WHOS BEEN THERE.

Read this amazing chapter about life after death
http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/chap43.php



10] WHY BELEIVE IN SOMETHIGN UNREAL.

Lets put it this way. Even atheist become connected to something unreal.
For example, You are reading some fictional Novel or go to theatre or you are watching some Sci-Fi movie like Avatar or something. In the two hours of the movie you are so engrossed that your mind becomes connected with the fictitious characters and even show emotions of sadness, happiness, love, anger, fear, shed some tears for these characters and many other feelings. Even though its unreal, you still imagine it to be real.
Even after the movie –on many occasions the emotional feelings stay with you for a while as if real. They sometimes inspire you to good or bad (depending on your nature).

When we read about God or hear about God, we become connected with him. The only difference is that our connection is longer lasting.
This lasting connection makes us believe he is real.

Off course you would argue as one person did earlier that ‘what if I become connected with Harry Potter’ does that mean Harry Potter is real?
Off course he is real to you due to your lack of spiritual advancement.

This is why so many different gods and religions exist. Everyone is a different stage of spiritual progress.

This explained in the Bhagvad Gita.

BG 7.20: Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures.

BG 7.21: I am in everyone's heart as the Supersoul. As soon as one desires to worship some demigod, I make his faith steady so that he can devote himself to that particular deity.

BG 7.22: Endowed with such a faith, he endeavors to worship a particular demigod and obtains his desires. But in actuality these benefits are bestowed by Me alone.

BG 7.23: Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet.

http://vedabase.net/bg/7/en


The different stage of spiritual progress is again further explained by ‘gunas’ or simply put the nature of mankind.
We all have different logics but only one Truth remains that there is a GOD.

The Sanskrit words for these gunas are sattva, rajas and tamas, and in English we can translate them as goodness, passion and darkness, respectively.
Most people live their lives neither in full goodness nor in full darkness and so the mode of passion is the most prominent mode of all. In this way virtually any aspect of life can be analyzed according to these three modes of matter and it is part of the Hindu way of seeing the universe.


BG 9.25: Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship the ancestors go to the ancestors; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; and those who worship Me will live with Me.



Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on May 29, 2013, 05:10:09 PM

yes and no.  The universe is an illusion (maya).  Reality is that we are all a "spark of the divine" - little pieces of god (Brahman) that have broken off and are confused and think we are our own individuals.  This is even true of the hindu gods.  While there may seem to be Brahma, vishnu, shiva, and about a thousand others, they are also confused.  They are all really just aspects of the one being, brahman.  Once we can see that we are all really one, really a part of god, then we can achieve enlightenment.  Until then, brahmins get to treat everyone like shit.

Also, Krishna is not a god, exactly.  Krishna was an avatar of vishnu.

I don't know if that is kiran's take, but that is pretty standard hindu thought as I understand it.


In your own style I guess you have sort of summed it up even when you say  [[Until then, brahmins get to treat everyone like shit. ]]

Krishna however is not considered just a demigod or an ordinary god. He Is the Supreme Personality of God--Brahman as decalred by Himself in the Bhagvad Gita. Out of all the incarnations of Vishnu --Krishna is the incarnation where he makes the appearance Himself on earth.

Off course Shiva worshippers will tell you their version!
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Astreja on May 29, 2013, 06:03:11 PM
How do you KNOW that God doesn't heal amputees?  The only way you could know this is if you were to investigate every amputee who has ever lived and is now living, to determine whether or not God has healed them.

Not necessary to deal in all-or-nothing, assuming that it could have happened somewhere.  I work in a hospital, Jesse, and one of the departments I work for deals with amputees.  No healings there.  It's sufficient for My needs to extrapolate and assume the negative position:  That a similar situation exists at other hospitals worldwide, no amputees are being healed, and that if the situation changes it'll be noted in a reputable medical journal and all over the Internet.

Quote
Secondly, how do you define "heal"?  In your apparently narrow definition, "heal" seems to mean "restore that which was amputated."

That is precisely the definition we are using here.  Psychological healing doesn't count.  The skin healing over the stump of an amputee's missing limb doesn't count.  We do mean total restoration of the limb, along with its neurological function.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: shnozzola on May 29, 2013, 07:36:33 PM
     Thank you for those definitions, Kiran.  Even for years as a Christian I could identify with your definitions.  The Quakers of Christianity believe everyone has a inner light in them that is god.  That may be the closer part of Christianity to Hinduism, IMO.

      But I disagree with these definitions as nebulous, and unnecessary, although generally people that belief this way are not a harm to society, which is an important thing.  And of further importance is that this type of believer may be less judgmental of atheists.  As sure as you may be of your Hindu beliefs, Kiran, recognize that you may be wrong, and then people will be safe.

       I think the only proof you offer is for yourself.   The proof we offer is no less valid.   I think the slow waking up of the world from primitive belief is the reason so many need to believe in a god.

I can however understand that especially when all the evil things that has been done in the name of God. Totally understandable.

       Currently, these evil things are increasing.  Those of us that totally enjoy life and recognize that this idea of some type of afterlife is so illogical, when questioned and analyzed, that we MUST argue for the ultimate value of the here and now, and we can safely do that with the internet - so our numbers are increasing worldwide, if I'm not mistaken.

The Hindu scripture Bhagvad Gita recognises the fact that some people will not believe what they read.

    Yes, the bible says basically the same thing, about looking but not seeing.  I find this demeaning to those of us that look and study and search very hard for truth. Much of the wisdom in these holy books is true, and works for society, but the existence of any type of deity - old writings from primitive people that did not understand disease, lightning, evolution, etc, etc. 

      The discerning seeker of truth that sticks around here long enough to realize atheim is not angry, but cares so much about life, perhaps more than the religious, that the passion may seem like anger.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: screwtape on May 30, 2013, 08:01:28 AM
Questions have come different people and I think its going to be easy for me write my opinions on them here.

Hi Kiran

Thanks for taking the time to post.  Even though I think you are pretty much wrong about every idea you have about gods, I do appreciate your participation.  You wrote a lot.  I could spend all day pointing out where you have erred with regard to logic, reason and facts.  But I don't find that particularly interesting.  I'll just address your first point.


1]
Often we read and hear about the things we have not seen or tasted or experienced. That does not mean those things are unreal. It just means we have not seen or tasted or experienced these things yet.

generally speaking this is true.  Just because I've not experienced a thing does not mean it is nonexistent.  However, it should also be noted, I have also not experienced things which do not exist.  Things that do not exist do not lend themselves to experiences. 

So if we are told of a thing and we have not experienced it, we need a way to differentiate between the existent and the nonexistent.  So far, you have not been very helpful in that regard.

Quote
Many of you have heard of the land called India. Some of you have read about it and may be some of you even experienced it by going there. But you often believe what is told about India whether it’s a true picture of the land or not.

But it is an actual land.  We can talk to people who have been there.  We can go there an verify its reality. If one person says the Himalayas are a range of the highest mountains on this planet, and another says they are rolling hills of saag paneer trees, we can verify which of them, if either, is correct.

Quote
Similarly we hear about God and many of us believe what we are told.

Here is where your analogy falls apart.  People say different things about gods, just like they do about India.  But it is not possible to verify which of those things are correct, if any.  Every version of god is defined as being more or less undetectable.  Your analogy would only hold if India were invisible, impossible to get to, and once people go there, they are never heard from again.

Quote
Just because I cant show you God or a soul –does not mean it does not exist.

Existent things are tied up with reality.  They are intermingled, entangled.  If a thing exists, it has consequences.  Consequences are evidence of a sort.  Things that do not exist cannot be entangled. 

You could say you had a dog.  There would be consequences from that if it were true.  I would expect to see a dog.  I would expect to maybe smell a dog.  I would expect food and water bowls to be present.  I might expect to see dog hair on the carpet or furniture.  I might expect to hear a dog barking.  The dog would be entangled with you, me, your house, your neighbors, reality.

If I checked your house for those things, I might not find them and there might be a very good reason for that.  But at some point, your dog must leave some kind of evidence if he exists.  There are no dogs that are invisible and intangible.  There are no dogs that neither eat nor drink.  There are no dogs that are not entangled with reality.  If you are trying to convince me you have a dog, you cannot say your dog leaves no evidence, is not entangled with reality and expect me to believe that. 

Similarly, if a god or a soul exists, there must be evidence for it.  They must be entangled with reality.  Otherwise, there is no good reason to suggest them in the first place.

Let's consider a computer.  It has a program that takes in information and determines "true" or "false".  It gives the conclusion (outputs) based on the stimulus received (inputs).  If the output is the same no matter what the inputs are, then the machine is functionally broken.   

The computer is your brain.  Your output is "god exists".  The input is "miracles" or "bhagivad gita" or "sri sri yogi mango-bananas" or, in this case, "no evidence".  There is no input that produces the output of "no gods".  Your brain is functionally broken.


reference: http://lesswrong.com/lw/jl/what_is_evidence/

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Aaron123 on May 30, 2013, 11:11:08 AM
Don't really have time to comment on everything, so a few points...


Please forgive my simplistic English language used because this is the level of my ability to write.
I am also sorry if my ‘points’ were not made in the right forum and since the questions kept on coming .......

Well, I'll try and keep that in mind.


Quote
1]
Often we read and hear about the things we have not seen or tasted or experienced. That does not mean those things are unreal. It just means we have not seen or tasted or experienced these things yet.


True.  Though keep in mind, for anything, there has to be reasonable explainations for why we are or are not experiening something.



Quote
Many of you have heard of the land called India. Some of you have read about it and may be some of you even experienced it by going there. But you often believe what is told about India whether it’s a true picture of the land or not.


We have soild reasons to believe in a land mass called India.  We all live on land masses, and they're all named something (America, France, Peru, Germany... whatever).  So the idea that there's this place called India is really not much of a stretch.  (to say nothing of that we can go there ourself, look up pictures, talk to people that lives there...)


Quote
Similarly we hear about God and many of us believe what we are told.
Just because I cant show you God or a soul –does not mean it does not exist.
This is indirect proof. The direct proof is as I keep saying is to seek Him yourself in the right manner.

Before, I mentioned how you keep trying to tell us not to expect evidence for your god.  You're doing it again.



Quote
2] Some of you keep using this word ‘incredulity’.
This is nothing more than a ‘random’ word (because there are others like imagination, hallucination, dreaming etc) to deny the proof that stares you in the face. If you are not willing to ‘seek’ then how do you expect to find the answer?


Not really sure what you mean by "random word".

I should also note that many of us used to be theists.  We sought long and hard looking for answers, and found one that most of us were not expecting (which is that god most likely does not exist).


Quote
I ask you to taste an apple but you refuse then how will you know what it taste like? How can you call me a liar. How can you say there is no such thing as an apple.


If you presented an apple, then you've clearly shown that it exists.  I'm not sure how this is suppose to be a good analogy for your god.



Quote
I also keep reading that some of you have tried to seek and found nothing.
I say this is simply your failure.
Your Failure is not a lack of my evidence of God

If you're going to accuse others of failure, at least explain why it's a failure on our part.  Simply saying that we "didn't try hard enough" doesn't get us anywhere.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on May 30, 2013, 11:41:54 AM
Questions have come different people and I think its going to be easy for me write my opinions on them here.

Please forgive my simplistic English language used because this is the level of my ability to write.
I am also sorry if my ‘points’ were not made in the right forum and since the questions kept on coming .......

1]
Often we read and hear about the things we have not seen or tasted or experienced. That does not mean those things are unreal. It just means we have not seen or tasted or experienced these things yet.

Many of you have heard of the land called India. Some of you have read about it and may be some of you even experienced it by going there. But you often believe what is told about India whether it’s a true picture of the land or not.

Similarly we hear about God and many of us believe what we are told.
Just because I cant show you God or a soul –does not mean it does not exist.
This is indirect proof. The direct proof is as I keep saying is to seek Him yourself in the right manner.

I'm going to answer these one at a time...

Regarding "believing" something exists without seeing it, Kiran, your example of India is called a False Analogy. India is a physical place. It can be DEMONSTRATED (and quite clearly with no ambiguous language or reference). This is NOT the case with this alleged "thing" you call "God". Have you ever heard of the word GULLIBLE? Thousands of man-made false religions have been created throughout history, and you don't think yours in just another one of these? You are gullible!

Science does not say we have to "see it to believe it". It says that there must be demonstrable evidence for a claim in order to justify believing in a given phenomena. Your term "God" doesn't refer to anything in the real world. It only refers to your ignorance of things. What you do not understand you call God. But that is irrational. It is called credulity.

median

p.s. - If you cannot show me God (or demonstrate God in unambiguous fashion) then it doesn't mean your God exists, either! Your arguments for God are no different from the ancients who thought  lightening came from Zeus! You are arguing from your ignorance - trying to explain a mystery by another mystery. It doesn't work.




Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: screwtape on May 30, 2013, 11:46:19 AM
Crap.  I missed this.  this is a Lulu. I cannot not respond to this.

I ask you to taste an apple but you refuse then how will you know what it taste like? How can you call me a liar. How can you say there is no such thing as an apple.

To keep with your terrible analogy, you are asking us to taste the apple.  We ask for the apple and you hold out your empty hand.  We ask, "where's the apple?"  You reply, "you cannot see it or touch it, but it's there."  We reach out for it and can find nothing.  As far as we are concerned you just have an empty hand.  There is nothing to taste.

I suggest you stop using analogies.  They are inherently problematic.

I also keep reading that some of you have tried to seek and found nothing.
I say this is simply your failure.
Your Failure is not a lack of my evidence of God

This is pretty rude.  You have told us evidence of god is easy to find, we just have to look.  We've looked and found nothing.  Now you are trying to absolve yourself of any responsibility by blaming us.  That there is some bullshit.  If a thing is real, it should be very easy for you to show us how to find it.  Even in theoretical physics they can predict the conditions under which obscure particles would be found.  But in religion, no one can ever reliably point us toward any gods.

You should be able to provide very specific directions.  For example, you mentioned the magical land of India.  I can tell you where to find it (southern end of the asian continent), longitude and latitude, how to get there, the flight schedule for Air India (flight 102 from JFK leaves at 3:10pm tomorrow for New Delhi), the internet address for google maps, etc. 

You should be able to give equally specific instructions to us for finding god.  They should be clear and simple to follow.  Yet you have not.  Instead, you have tried to blame us.  That tells me either you do not know the way or there is no way.


Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on May 30, 2013, 12:06:45 PM

2] Some of you keep using this word ‘incredulity’.
This is nothing more than a ‘random’ word (because there are others like imagination, hallucination, dreaming etc) to deny the proof that stares you in the face. If you are not willing to ‘seek’ then how do you expect to find the answer?

I ask you to taste an apple but you refuse then how will you know what it taste like? How can you call me a liar. How can you say there is no such thing as an apple.

I also keep reading that some of you have tried to seek and found nothing.
I say this is simply your failure.
Your Failure is not a lack of my evidence of God


Scientist of the days gone by had real trouble trying to convince the so called ‘know it all’ people of their time of certain theories and scientific discoveries. They were even accused of witchcraft!
I don’t see any different happening on this forum.
Instead we get indirect swearing at God and even direct mocking of the believers.

Trying to justify each of answer with a hollow word like ‘incredulity’ means nothing to me.

God exist because ‘I believe’
God exist because ‘I exist’. 

Now you are just trying to justify your being gullible (and having a low standard of evidence for only your religion). How arrogant! The term incredulity is NOT a random word. It describes one of the the types of irrational arguments you keep trying to make for this "God" thing. The fact is, not all nouns refer to anything real (such as the noun "Unicorn") and you haven't provided any good reason for thinking the term "God" refers to anything real. You just keep saying it, as if we should just take your word for it (like a fast talking salesman at a street market) and you keep trying to use arguments from ignorance (a logical fallacy). Just because you don't understand something (or if you personally do not have another explanation) does not in any way mean your explanation is the correct one. In fact, your explanation is THE MOST UNLIKELY ONE! And this is why we are skeptical of your claims. And you should be skeptical too - as you likely are with most everything else in life!

If a fast talking salesman came to your door and said he had a magic potion that would cure all of your ailments on contact (for 3 easy payments of $999.95), would you believe him when he refused to show you demonstrable evidence of his claims?? This is what you are doing! You have been SOLD on the idea that you experienced "God" (whatever that means). You started with your conclusion (out of intellectual laziness). You stopped critically thinking and investigating (like you WOULD NOT do with a salesman at the door) and you just believed because it made you feel comfortable.
   

Unicorn exists because 'I believe'.
Unicorn exists because 'I exist'.


The Flying Spaghetti Monster exists because 'I believe'.
The Flying Spaghetti Monster exists because 'I exist'.

WRONG!!!! Just because you believe in something doesn't make it real. Many children believe in a magic Santa Claus who gives them gifts on December 25th. Is Santa Claus real because they believe? So too, just because you exist doesn't mean there is a god. And your saying so doesn't make it so. Again, you have suspended critical thinking. You have sacrificed your rational mind for superstition. How very, very sad.

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Aaron123 on May 30, 2013, 12:42:41 PM
10] WHY BELEIVE IN SOMETHIGN UNREAL.

Lets put it this way. Even atheist become connected to something unreal.
For example, You are reading some fictional Novel or go to theatre or you are watching some Sci-Fi movie like Avatar or something. In the two hours of the movie you are so engrossed that your mind becomes connected with the fictitious characters and even show emotions of sadness, happiness, love, anger, fear, shed some tears for these characters and many other feelings. Even though its unreal, you still imagine it to be real.
Even after the movie –on many occasions the emotional feelings stay with you for a while as if real. They sometimes inspire you to good or bad (depending on your nature).

When we read about God or hear about God, we become connected with him. The only difference is that our connection is longer lasting.
This lasting connection makes us believe he is real.

Off course you would argue as one person did earlier that ‘what if I become connected with Harry Potter’ does that mean Harry Potter is real?
Off course he is real to you due to your lack of spiritual advancement.

This is why so many different gods and religions exist. Everyone is a different stage of spiritual progress.

I find it VERY curious that you choose to use work of fiction as an analogy for your god.  It seems to me that your exact words here could be used as an argument against god.  Your emotional connection to your god is simply the same process that occurs whenever we get emotionally connected to a work of fiction.  The only difference being whenever we recongize said work as fiction or not.  The only thing you've listed as a difference is "longer lasting" connection.  How long is "longer lasting"?  I had a long lasting connection to Transformers ever since my early childhood (I know I watched episodes of it when I was 3 or 4).  I understood Optimus Prime before I understood god.  I guess then, Optimus Prime is more real than god. (face it, he's a better role model)


Oh, and you also mentioned something about "spiritual advancement" and "spiritual progress".  But you didn't explain what those mean, how they can be recognized, their characteristics, and how they can be measured.  I really don't know how to reply to a comment when it's so vaguely defined.  "Spiritual" is one of those religious buzz words that is meant to sound profound, but means and explains so very little. (this is your opportunity to prove me wrong by explaining the word and how it can be measured)
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: jdawg70 on May 30, 2013, 01:29:25 PM
10] WHY BELEIVE IN SOMETHIGN UNREAL.

Lets put it this way. Even atheist become connected to something unreal.
For example, You are reading some fictional Novel or go to theatre or you are watching some Sci-Fi movie like Avatar or something. In the two hours of the movie you are so engrossed that your mind becomes connected with the fictitious characters and even show emotions of sadness, happiness, love, anger, fear, shed some tears for these characters and many other feelings. Even though its unreal, you still imagine it to be real.
Even after the movie –on many occasions the emotional feelings stay with you for a while as if real. They sometimes inspire you to good or bad (depending on your nature).

When we read about God or hear about God, we become connected with him. The only difference is that our connection is longer lasting.
This lasting connection makes us believe he is real.

Off course you would argue as one person did earlier that ‘what if I become connected with Harry Potter’ does that mean Harry Potter is real?
Off course he is real to you due to your lack of spiritual advancement.

This is why so many different gods and religions exist. Everyone is a different stage of spiritual progress.

I find it VERY curious that you choose to use work of fiction as an analogy for your god.  It seems to me that your exact words here could be used as an argument against god.  Your emotional connection to your god is simply the same process that occurs whenever we get emotionally connected to a work of fiction.  The only difference being whenever we recongize said work as fiction or not.  The only thing you've listed as a difference is "longer lasting" connection.  How long is "longer lasting"?  I had a long lasting connection to Transformers ever since my early childhood (I know I watched episodes of it when I was 3 or 4).  I understood Optimus Prime before I understood god.  I guess then, Optimus Prime is more real than god. (face it, he's a better role model)


Oh, and you also mentioned something about "spiritual advancement" and "spiritual progress".  But you didn't explain what those mean, how they can be recognized, their characteristics, and how they can be measured.  I really don't know how to reply to a comment when it's so vaguely defined.  "Spiritual" is one of those religious buzz words that is meant to sound profound, but means and explains so very little. (this is your opportunity to prove me wrong by explaining the word and how it can be measured)

I don't find it all that curious - kiran's position appears to be of the "squishy definition of reality" variety.

Is god real?
No - he/she/it's better than real.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Astreja on May 30, 2013, 02:12:54 PM
Kiran, I know all too well the allure of attraction to the imaginary.  I've had great fun with it, setting up web pages and writing fan fiction and sewing costumes.

That does not make it real.

More importantly, that does not make it useful except as a psychological prop in the toolbox of the imagination.

I would love to meet My heroes in the flesh.  I'd love to time travel, be it in a TARDIS or in Heart of Gold or under My own power as an archmage.  I'd love to whip off the occasional lightning bolt warning shot when someone behaves badly in rush-hour traffic.  I want to go to the Discworld to visit Unseen University and climb to the summit of Dunmanifestin and see the elephants standing on the back of A'tuin.  I want to lunch at the Inn of the Last Home on Krynn, and have a late supper at the Restaurant at the End of the Universe.

I'm not expecting it to happen any time soon, except in My imagination.

And I'm sick unto death of people bandying around the word "spiritual," as if it automatically confers bragging rights regarding one's imaginary friends.

Real knowledge works whether or not you believe in it.  Until otherwise demonstrated with real results in the real world, "spiritual knowledge" is functionally identical to "making stuff up and pretending that it's magically better than someone else's made-up stuff."
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: screwtape on May 30, 2013, 02:37:49 PM
^ reminds me of kcrady's post comparing religion to LARPing
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,14360.msg320066.html#msg320066
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on June 01, 2013, 07:06:17 AM

1] Thank you all for your replies.
I would like to respond to each of you again, but I can see that until proof is shown then anything I write will be futile. I know there are other questions asked of me so please dont think i am ignoring anyone.
So instead I will pray to God; in the hope that you will all experience his presence.

I don’t know when or how that’s going to happen but I am certain it will happen and Im certain you will know it.
I hope one of you will get back and write your experiences when it does.

I might be called stupid for saying this by those who dont beleive,
I might get criticised by worshippers for wasting time praying when there are far better things to pray for.
What can I say to you both, I believe and I am using my belief................




2] The example about India was to illustrate that when we know something exist, it is easy to accept anything said about it. The point I was trying to make was that we often believe about something we haven’t seen (even when we know it exists). That’s all.
To me the soul exist to you India exist.
But yes I do take all your comments and I see how it hasn’t gone down well :) and probably not explainig any better right now  :-[


3] As to proof of God
A] I cant ignore the fact billions believe in a God –which perhaps is the greatest proof. Surely they all can’t all be wrong. We are not all some primitive individuals either.

B] Then there is the testimony of Indian Yogis and Holy men who have claimed the existence of God. I gave some names earlier of people who have seen God --Surely they cant all be liars.

C] Then we have Jesus, for whom people were willing to die for and actually did and what’s amazing is the very people who fed them to the lions are the very people/country became the centre of Christian religion.
If someone wrote a story about Jesus as some of you claim then these Emperors and Kings and their intellects were very gullible to suddenly convert.

D] Egyptians Greeks Scientists like Newton etc how can we ignore that all thee people and say that they too imagined God.


E] Read this amazing chapter about life after death
http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/chap43.php
Is it just lies?



F]
The Vedic Rishi Kapil said
“When I looked inwards;
I discovered there seems to be layers to ourselves.
We seem to have an external layer which is the physical level;
then we seem to have a mental layer –the mind.
But behind the body and the mind there is something distinctly different from the body and mind”
 


Eye cannot see him, nor words reveal him;
by the senses, austerity, or works he is not known.
When the mind is cleansed by the grace of wisdom,
he is seen by contemplation--the One without parts.
Mundaka Upanishad 3.1.8


“They eventually discovered how to shut off all five senses, thus temporarily doing away entirely with the consciousness of matter. The inner world of the Spirit began to open up. To those great ones who un-deviating, persisted in these inner investigation, God finally revealed Himself.” 
 





Having said this if anyone still wish to ask me any questions then I will try my best to answer. Thank you all. 

[[spiritual knowledge, "spiritual advancement" and "spiritual progress".]]
As to the word ‘spiritual’ I think it needs explaining. I think words are often used differently in tone and meaning by different religions so it can often lead to confusion and even resentment when someone uses that word.
I’ll try and write something later.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: The Gawd on June 01, 2013, 08:43:36 AM

1] Thank you all for your replies.
I would like to respond to each of you again, but I can see that until proof is shown then anything I write will be futile. I know there are other questions asked of me so please dont think i am ignoring anyone.
So instead I will pray to God; in the hope that you will all experience his presence.

I don’t know when or how that’s going to happen but I am certain it will happen and Im certain you will know it.
I hope one of you will get back and write your experiences when it does.

Yes, we need the proof (or evidence). Nothing else will suffice. Nothing. Many of us prayed to "god" ourselves. You see how you dont know how or when yada yada yada? Well thats when we realized we were sending worthless thoughts into the air and that "god" doesnt exist. These writings you are experiencing here ARE us writing our experiences with a god that doesnt exist.

Quote

I might be called stupid for saying this by those who dont beleive,
I might get criticised by worshippers for wasting time praying when there are far better things to pray for.
What can I say to you both, I believe and I am using my belief................




2] The example about India was to illustrate that when we know something exist, it is easy to accept anything said about it. The point I was trying to make was that we often believe about something we haven’t seen (even when we know it exists). That’s all.
To me the soul exist to you India exist.
But yes I do take all your comments and I see how it hasn’t gone down well :) and probably not explainig any better right now  :-[
It cant be understated. India exists. I have Indian friends. Ive been to an Indian wedding. I have had Indian girlfriends. I was able to verify their existence. I have seen plane tickets to India, and photos of them in India. I have seen Indian dress. I work with people in India. I have seen a documentary where a man's job was outsourced to India and he went to India to get the job back. We dont have anything supporting a god, but what some people say. If the only evidence for India was some things people said then we'd be correct in being skeptical of India especially if the things they said did not match our reality.

Quote
3] As to proof of God
A] I cant ignore the fact billions believe in a God –which perhaps is the greatest proof. Surely they all can’t all be wrong. We are not all some primitive individuals either.
If that is the greatest proof then why even argue it. It was once accepted that the sun circled the earth. Surely all those people couldnt be wrong, right?  :-\ It was once believed that diseases and sickness came from demons.......then we learned about germs. Surely all those people couldnt be wrong, right?  :-\

Quote
B] Then there is the testimony of Indian Yogis and Holy men who have claimed the existence of God. I gave some names earlier of people who have seen God --Surely they cant all be liars.
Well, yes they surely CAN all be liars. The most likely scenario is SOME are liars meaning they know they are peddling falsehoods, the others are just gullible, credulous, and mistaken.

Quote
C] Then we have Jesus, for whom people were willing to die for and actually did and what’s amazing is the very people who fed them to the lions are the very people/country became the centre of Christian religion.
If someone wrote a story about Jesus as some of you claim then these Emperors and Kings and their intellects were very gullible to suddenly convert.
Jesus never existed. People die for stupid things every day. The obvious question is why Jesus wouldnt save them from the lions? The obvious answer.... Jesus isnt real.

Quote
D] Egyptians Greeks Scientists like Newton etc how can we ignore that all thee people and say that they too imagined God.
Imagined is the key word. You too are imagining god. Im not even going to address all the logical fallacies you are exhibiting in literally EVERY point.

Quote
E] Read this amazing chapter about life after death
http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/chap43.php
Is it just lies?
No. there is no way to write about life after death. You are either alive or dead. If youre dead youre not writing books. If you are alive youre not dead. There is no blurred line here.

Quote
F]
The Vedic Rishi Kapil said
“When I looked inwards;
I discovered there seems to be layers to ourselves.
We seem to have an external layer which is the physical level;
then we seem to have a mental layer –the mind.
But behind the body and the mind there is something distinctly different from the body and mind”

what does this even mean. If there is a distinctly different layer, he should be able to distinctly describe it and demonstrate it.
 

Quote
Eye cannot see him, nor words reveal him;
by the senses, austerity, or works he is not known.
When the mind is cleansed by the grace of wisdom,
he is seen by contemplation--the One without parts.
Mundaka Upanishad 3.1.8
Is he talking about the Great Muba Muba?

Quote
“They eventually discovered how to shut off all five senses, thus temporarily doing away entirely with the consciousness of matter. The inner world of the Spirit began to open up. To those great ones who un-deviating, persisted in these inner investigation, God finally revealed Himself.” 
This means nothing.
 

Quote
Having said this if anyone still wish to ask me any questions then I will try my best to answer. Thank you all. 

[[spiritual knowledge, "spiritual advancement" and "spiritual progress".]]
As to the word ‘spiritual’ I think it needs explaining. I think words are often used differently in tone and meaning by different religions so it can often lead to confusion and even resentment when someone uses that word.
I’ll try and write something later.

Yes you need to define and demonstrate this spiritual talk
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: screwtape on June 01, 2013, 09:07:35 AM
A] I cant ignore the fact billions believe in a God –which perhaps is the greatest proof. Surely they all can’t all be wrong. We are not all some primitive individuals either.

yes, they could all be wrong.  Why couldn't they?  And yes, we are all primitives.

B] Then there is the testimony of Indian Yogis and Holy men who have claimed the existence of God. I gave some names earlier of people who have seen God --Surely they cant all be liars.

Some of them could be crazy, some of them could be liars, and some of them could be experiencing perfectly natural functions of brain, but wrongly attribute it to the supernatural.

C] Then we have Jesus, for whom people were willing to die

That only proves that people have convictions, not that their convictions are real or good.  People were also willing to die for Lenin, Mao and Charles Manson.

these Emperors and Kings and their intellects were very gullible to suddenly convert.

Yes, they were.

how can we ignore that all thee people and say that they too imagined God.

Thomas Jefferson owned slaves.  How can we ignore him and say slavery is wrong?

Is it just lies?

yes.

The Vedic Rishi Kapil said

a whole lot of talk without evidence.


Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Aaron123 on June 01, 2013, 01:07:11 PM

1] Thank you all for your replies.

You're welcome.


Quote
I would like to respond to each of you again, but I can see that until proof is shown then anything I write will be futile.


That's the general idea, yes.  After all, why believe in something if there is no evidence to speak of? (with this post, I assume you are stating that you have no evidence whatsoever to show us)


Quote
So instead I will pray to God; in the hope that you will all experience his presence.

I don’t know when or how that’s going to happen but I am certain it will happen and Im certain you will know it.
I hope one of you will get back and write your experiences when it does.

Again, I feel the need to point out that many of us are ex-believers.  We didn't just wake up one day and said "eh, screw this god thing".  We prayed and prayed to hang on to our beliefs, but in the end, the lack of evidence was too overwhelming to ignore.  You're free to pray to your god, but we're not going to expect anything to happen.  Nothing has "happened" during the previous many years of our lives, and nothing has given us any reasons to think that'll change.


Quote
3] As to proof of God
A] I cant ignore the fact billions believe in a God –which perhaps is the greatest proof. Surely they all can’t all be wrong. We are not all some primitive individuals either.


This is what's called an appeal to majority.  I'm not sure if you're familar with the concept of logic fallacies.  In this case, you're trying to say that because a large group of people agree with it, it must be true.  Agreement has nothing to do with whenever something is truthful or not.  At one point, many people thought the Earth was flat.  That didn't make it true, did it?  The fact is; people are often wrong about things, and they tend to be wrong about the very same thing.


Quote
B] Then there is the testimony of Indian Yogis and Holy men who have claimed the existence of God. I gave some names earlier of people who have seen God --Surely they cant all be liars.


I do not think they were all liars, but they most likely were delusional, confused, credulous, or otherwise, were far took quick to attribute something to god.


Quote
C] Then we have Jesus, for whom people were willing to die for and actually did and what’s amazing is the very people who fed them to the lions are the very people/country became the centre of Christian religion.

That just tells me they had very strong beliefs.  It doesn't tell me if those beliefs were truthful.

I'm going to direct you to this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven's_Gate_(religious_group)


In March of 1997, 39 people commited mass suicide, believing that they would be taken by an alien spacecraft following the Hale-Bopp comet.  Do you imagine that they were correct in their beliefs (since they died for it), or were they tragically delusional?


Quote
If someone wrote a story about Jesus as some of you claim then these Emperors and Kings and their intellects were very gullible to suddenly convert.


Gullible?  Crazy?  Opportunistic?  It's hard to tell sometimes.


Quote
D] Egyptians Greeks Scientists like Newton etc how can we ignore that all thee people and say that they too imagined God.

Being a scientist does not stop you from being a flawed human being.  Being a scientist does not stop you from having the wrong ideas about something.



Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Astreja on June 01, 2013, 06:42:28 PM
A] I cant ignore the fact billions believe in a God –which perhaps is the greatest proof. Surely they all can’t all be wrong.

Yes, they can all be wrong.  Even if every sentient being in the entire universe believed in Fred the Time-Travelling Turtle, it's entirely possible for Fred the Time-Travelling Turtle to be fictional.  What you have done, Kiran, is used the logical fallacy of appeal to popularity (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/bandwagon).  The truth of something is not connected to the number of people who believe it.

Think of it this way:  If one day you discovered that non-believers outnumbered believers, would you give up your belief just because you were now in the minority position?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on June 03, 2013, 06:20:54 PM

Its going to be quite difficult to reply to you all individually. Perhaps i shouldn’t bother, but there have been a few things said that generalises my points.
 
1]
[[(with this post, I assume you are stating that you have no evidence whatsoever to show us)]]
 

I think you have to prove to yourself that Gid exist; since you have refused to taken anyone else’s word for it. Its always been an individuals journey and that goes without saying.
You will see if you are willing to try again—but I cant teach how on the internet.


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2]
[[Many of us prayed to "god" ourselves.]]
[[These writings you are experiencing here ARE us writing our experiences with a god that doesnt exist.]]
[[".  We prayed and prayed to hang on to our beliefs, but in the end, the lack of evidence was too overwhelming to ignore. ]]

Sometimes we have to say “I failed in my prayers” rather than say I couldn’t find evidence. That would be a most humbling thing to admit and this will remove the ego.
Once you submit to God then you are ready to see God.

This is difficult indeed to admit and you may become angry at me but I dont say it an offensive or demeaning way.

Humility has to come before God reveals himself.


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3]
[[Well thats when we realized we were sending worthless thoughts into the air and that "god" doesnt exist.]]

Thoughts are not worthless. More often, than not, they create/shape/reflect who we are. Words are very powerful, whether said in the mind or out aloud.
Repeating the name of God sends out vibrations/singles/energy that connects us with God.
(I dont want to go into the whole science things but i have read that there are machines we can work by merely thinking it to move—used for handicapped people.) 


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4]
I said [[I cant ignore the fact billions believe in a God]]
Some of your comments

[[If that is the greatest proof then why even argue it.]]
[[[[yes, they could all be wrong. ]]]
[[This is what's called an appeal to majority]]
[[Yes, they can all be wrong. ]]
 
Then some of you tried to justify with some examples
 



[[It was once accepted that the sun circled the earth. Surely all those people couldnt be wrong, right?]]
[[It was once believed that diseases and sickness came from demons.......then we learned about germs. Surely all those people couldnt be wrong, right?]]
[[At one point, many people thought the Earth was flat.  That didn't make it true, did it?]]

At the time of the thought --this was the only Truth available to them so those people were right.
Later the Truth was available through Knowledge and a new Truth came to light.

We all go through life misjudging something because of some misinformation then realise the greater truth when the information changes and understand it better.

Billions now understand that God is not just thunder and lighting. He is more than that and real. They believe because they believe the new Truth revealed to them through meditations and deep contemplation on God.


Please dont try to use the same argument on me by saying “the new Truth is that there is no God.” 
That would simply be saying 
“Im right, You’re wrong. Full stop! End of!”


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5]
Talking about Jesus
 
[[That just tells me they had very strong beliefs.  It doesn't tell me if those beliefs were truthful.]]
 

The fact that they believed –then this is the ‘Truth’.
Hence Jesus was real –people dont often believe in unreal stuff.
Not only that, the proof they used to convince themselves of the validity of a real Jesus was the words he preached. It made sense.
Also the story was presented by highly intellectual people and they had no reason to doubt them.

As you say the same thing happened to a group who people who were told about aliens from a very valid source and highly respected people (in their opinions).
Why should they refuse to believe them. Im sure they made a good case for it and so people became convinced. Its only when they tried to prove and failed that they lost ‘faith’.

After all even Presidents can tell lies to go to war and people believe it was the Truth since the case put forward was convincing.

The truth becomes untruth only when its proven false.
God has not been proven false.
Today people have not yet lost faith in Jesus. So he is still the Truth.

Those who do give up believing in God, Im sure have numerous reasons to do so. But they only act according to their belief and not proof ie they have not proved that God did not exist. Not finding a way to connect with God is not a reason to say he does not exist.


Again some of the answers from some of you sound like
“Im right, You’re wrong. Full stop! End of!”
 



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6]
I said [[[Egyptians Greeks Scientists like Newton etc how can we ignore that all thee people and say that they too imagined God.]]

Being a scientist does not stop you from being a flawed human being.  Being a scientist does not stop you from having the wrong ideas about something.


Im sorry but that’s just another assumption that every scientist and Kings and Emperors and teachers and intellect from the last 10,000 years are ALL FLAWED HUMAN BEINGS.
Its just sounds like yet another case of
 “Im right, You’re wrong.”


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7]
[[The truth of something is not connected to the number of people who believe it.]]
[[Think of it this way:  If one day you discovered that non-believers outnumbered believers, would you give up your belief just because you were now in the minority position?]]



Off course I would have to give thought to the number of non-believers. They could be right. Just because you are in a minority does not mean you are right either. Look what Bush did against the will of the majority. He managed to go war with a lie. So minority are not always right and majority just possible are right.

The majority of worshippers haven’t been proven wrong because majority have experienced something they believe is God and more are attracted and more people are experiencing God.
Please dont tell me that those experiences are not God-experiences. How would you know? Its then begins to sound like “Im right you’re wrong—trust me”

If a lot of people are now becoming atheist because they have lost faith due to the bad things that go on in the name of religion Or perhaps have been left disappointed at not finding God  or for a number of other reasons  then this is their choice. 
Cant say i agree with all the reasons.



 
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8]
I said :-  [[Yogis etc Surely they cant all be liars.]]
 

You’re all saying:- [[Well, yes they surely CAN all be liars.]]
[[but they most likely were delusional, confused, credulous, or otherwise, were far took quick to attribute something to god.]]

Without even knowing about these men and women you are making judgements and again the argument presented by you all is
“Im right, You’re wrong. Full stop! End of!”
 

88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

9]

[[Jesus never existed.]]
Actually you say he is  imaginary –then how can an imaginary person change a course of history and a history of a continents and even replace entire religions, faith and way of life ---so your argument to simply say he never existed does not hold up. 

I really dont want to go into all that argument about proof by scientist and historians which Im sure you’re ready to present to me because none of those evidence are valid in my opinions against the overwhelming Truth that a change in the course of history and thinking of mankind took place.
Im sure its been discussed to death in many forums.

You might give me the whole history of Santa Clause who also has changed the course of history and culture all around the world. The difference here is that we know Santa is not real and this accepted by all adults and many children. Whereas Jesus has been accepted as being real and is worshiped and is accepted by majority adults also.


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10]
[[[The obvious question is why Jesus wouldnt save them from the lions? The obvious answer.... Jesus isnt real.]]]

Who said he never saved them?
They were all saved.
Remember Jesus’s idea of being ‘saved’ is not the same as the one you are thinking of.
His idea that he is a King/has a Kingdom was not the same as that of the Pharisees or Romans thought.
Jesus is Real.



[[That only proves that people have convictions, not that their convictions are real or good.  People were also willing to die for Lenin, Mao and Charles Manson. ]]
 

Yes people died for real people.

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11] On God

Egyptians Greeks Scientists like Newton never imagined God,
 because Newton believed because he could not prove that Jesus/God never existed and Egyptians Greeks never needed to be know that he was unreal. Some proof that existed was enough for them.



88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
 


12]

[[No. there is no way to write about life after death. You are either alive or dead. If youre dead youre not writing books. If you are alive youre not dead. There is no blurred line here.]]


Wait. You can just call someone a liar just because you cannot grips with life and death. Also it was not the dead person writing the book—he was only writing what his Guru had told him when he came back after death.

You did not know that so fair enough—otherwise the argument could have been simply
“Im right, You’re wrong. Full stop! End of!”
 

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13
To All of you and Gawd

[[The Vedic Rishi Kapil said...................
what does this even mean. If there is a distinctly different layer, he should be able to distinctly describe it and demonstrate it.]]

[[Is he talking about the Great Muba Muba?]]
[[This means nothing.]]
[[a whole lot of talk without evidence.]]



Again you aren’t even attempting to understand what he is saying ..so we’ll just leave it at that because I cant explain it to you till we are face to face.
Internet is not a good place to make you understand or discuss certain things and hence is also the reason why Ive not been able to a reply to some of the other questions in the past by other forum users of this topic.
So my apologies if i looked like i was ignoring certain issues. 




88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
 

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Astreja on June 03, 2013, 11:23:54 PM
I think you have to prove to yourself that God exists...

And how does one avoid deluding oneself into "proving" a nonexistent god by imagining that one has the truth of the matter?

Quote
Once you submit to God then you are ready to see God... Humility has to come before God reveals himself.

That, IMO, is complete and utter nonsense that is used as an excuse for why gods don't show up.  To an alleged being of such immense power, the difference between a human's "humility" and a human's "pride" would be infinitesimal.

Quote
Repeating the name of God sends out vibrations/singles/energy that connects us with God.

I think it just sends vibrations out for a short distance, whereupon they lose energy and die out.  Unless a god is already in close physical proximity, in which case it should already know what we want or need just by observing us, such prayers are doomed to fail because humans just don't possess that much vocal power.

Quote
Billions now understand that God is not just thunder and lighting. He is more than that and real. They believe because they believe the new Truth revealed to them through meditations and deep contemplation on God.  Please don't try to use the same argument on me by saying “the new Truth is that there is no God.”  That would simply be saying  “I'm right, You’re wrong. Full stop! End of!”

Logical fallacies:  Special pleading, and strawman.  You can't just declare your "truth" to be better than ours, and arbitrarily dismiss our counter-argument.  Most of the atheists here are agnostic atheists, not gnostic ones, so we don't tend to say “the new Truth is that there is no God."  We're more likely to say "We find your alleged 'new truth' unconvincing."

Quote
The fact that they believed –then this is the ‘Truth’.  Hence Jesus was real –people don't often believe in unreal stuff.

That, sir, is ridiculous.  People have believed in unreal stuff for untold centuries.  They often do this because someone else told them it was real, and they lacked the information to know otherwise.

Quote
God has not been proven false.

Logical fallacy:  Shifting the burden of proof.  You have to prove your god to be true.  We are under no obligation to prove it false.

Quote
Not finding a way to connect with God is not a reason to say he does not exist.

It's all the reason I'll ever need.  If I can't find evidence of it in the real world, why should I bother?

Quote
So minority are not always right and majority just possible are right.

In the meantime, in the absence of evidence you cannot assume that either side is right.

Quote
Please don't tell me that those experiences are not God-experiences. How would you know?

Simple -- No good empirical evidence for a god.  You can't have an authentic "God-experience" without a god.  However, you can imagine such an experience.  It appears to be a natural neurological function that can be duplicated in a laboratory by stimulating a specific part of the brain.

Quote
If a lot of people are now becoming atheist because they have lost faith due to the bad things that go on in the name of religion Or perhaps have been left disappointed at not finding God  or for a number of other reasons  then this is their choice.  Cant say i agree with all the reasons.

It is not a choice.  I was apparently born with an inability to experience unconditional faith in anything supernatural, and fortunately was not indoctrinated as a child.  By the time I was 7 years old I had figured out that the "Hell" myth was used to control the masses.  The more I study religion -- And I've been at it nearly 50 years so far -- the closer I get to strong atheism.

Quote
Wait. You can just call someone a liar just because you cannot grips with life and death. Also it was not the dead person writing the book—he was only writing what his Guru had told him when he came back after death.

The Guru may not have been wilfully lying, but was he telling the truth?  I would tend to go on the assumption that he was unconscious and hallucinated, rather than coming back from the dead.  The human brain is not capable of regeneration after a long cessation of cardiovascular function, so in the case of genuine death (as opposed to coma and/or slowing down of bodily functions), resuscitation after more than a few minutes would permanently damage the brain.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Aaron123 on June 04, 2013, 02:00:56 AM
I think you have to prove to yourself that Gid exist; since you have refused to taken anyone else’s word for it. Its always been an individuals journey and that goes without saying.
You will see if you are willing to try again—but I cant teach how on the internet.

 ...

Sometimes we have to say “I failed in my prayers” rather than say I couldn’t find evidence. That would be a most humbling thing to admit and this will remove the ego.
Once you submit to God then you are ready to see God.

This is difficult indeed to admit and you may become angry at me but I dont say it an offensive or demeaning way.

Humility has to come before God reveals himself.

These two comments comes off to me as "you have to believe in god before you can believe in god".  Instead of accepting the possiblily that god doesn't exist, the blame must reside on the person in question.

You've also invoked the "egotisic atheist" and "angry at god atheist" arguements.  How many times does it have to be said?  Atheists are not angry at god (since it's silly to be angry at a non-existence thing), and atheists are no more egotisic than the averge person.  Heck, in some way, I'd say we're less egotisic (at least in the sense that we don't think we're some divine being's special creation).


Quote
Again some of the answers from some of you sound like
“Im right, You’re wrong. Full stop! End of!”
 

You keep repeating this line.  I think this is actually your arguement.


Quote
Im sorry but that’s just another assumption that every scientist and Kings and Emperors and teachers and intellect from the last 10,000 years are ALL FLAWED HUMAN BEINGS.

I don't even understand this counter-arguement (if it can be called that).  You seem to have a problem with my statement that scientists and kings are flawed human beings.  Uh, because...?

Every human beings are flawed.  I doubt anyone denies that.  There's a reason the expression "nobody's perfect" exists.  Why is it such a big thing for you to consider that certain people, because of their occupations, are also flawed?  I can only guess that by accepting that train of thought, it'll tear holes into your arguements.
 
I noticed that you didn't comment at all about the Heaven's Gate thing.  Was there, in fact, an alien spaceship waiting for those people (since they committed mass suicude for me)?  Is there any chance that they were (very) tragically delusional?

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Anfauglir on June 04, 2013, 04:12:29 AM
It was once accepted that the sun circled the earth. Surely all those people couldnt be wrong, right?

At the time of the thought --this was the only Truth available to them so those people were right.
Later the Truth was available through Knowledge and a new Truth came to light.

No.  They weren't.  Unless you are suggesting that the sun DID circle the Earth until enough people believed in the alternative?

Fact is, they were wrong.  Wrong for good reason, perhaps, but still wrong.

Because if you are going to suggest that "the only Truth available to them (meant) those people were right", then I expect you to agree that I am right when I say "there is no god".  Literally.  I expect you to say "Anfauglir is right when he says there is no god", or retract that nonsense you posted above.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: screwtape on June 04, 2013, 07:09:58 AM
Kiran

My green text indicates I am acting as a moderator, not a participant in the conversation.  Let me give you some advice to help your posting habits.

First, stop trying to address everyone at once.  I know you are outnumbered 10 to 1 so that may seem like a more efficient way to do it.  But it makes your posts very long and rather shallow.  I stopped reading your last post after about a paragraph because it was so long and did not specifically address anything I said.  It is frustrating for me to put effort into addressing your arguments and then you not directly respond.  I am sure other people feel the same way.

We have a Debate area where you can talk to someone - anyone you like who is willing - one on one.  Other people are not permitted to join the conversation unless you both agree.  Please consider using that.

Second, and related to that, stop trying to address every conceiveable topic.  It makes your posts very long and rather shallow.  Instead, I suggest you look at just one or two aspects of the argument.  That lets you get deeper into the concepts. 

Last, your quoting and formatting skills need work.  Please practice these things in the Test area.  When you are better at it, your posts will be more readable and people will understand you better.

I hope that helps.  Let me or any other moderator know if you have any questions.

Regards
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on June 08, 2013, 02:30:45 AM
I think you have to prove to yourself that Gid exist; 

You mean just like children prove to themselves that Santa Claus exists?

You can convince yourself of almost anything, but that doesn't make it real. You need to demonstrate your claims Kiran. Stop claiming and start demonstrating.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on June 10, 2013, 05:24:57 PM
Hello all
Astreja Aaron123 Anfauglir screwtape  Median

I have given all of you one last individual replies below on this forum. Im sorry its been a long time posting. I just didn’t have time.
Bearing in mind what the moderators had said to me I thought I would not be able to post according to this forum rules. I have decided to make one last reply and hope the moderators dont delete my ‘unauthorised’ way of posting.
If they do then let me say it was nice discussing with you all.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on June 10, 2013, 05:26:56 PM

This post is for Astreja only.

Astreja this is probably going to be my last reply because I believe we are just going round in circles trying to give each other clever answers and secondly the moderators are not going to tolerate my inability to post correctly.   I will off course read all your replies. Please accept my apologies for any replies that appeared arrogant or otherwise.  It was nice discussing with you.
I have numbered each points and hope its all clear to read.

1] 
I wrote:- I think you have to prove to yourself that God exists...

You replied:- And how does one avoid deluding oneself into "proving" a nonexistent god by imagining that one has the truth of the matter?

My answer:- By experiencing God; then there is no imagination or delusion. So try your best to experience God.

I will leave you how this is done from my point of understanding.
Hinduism explains three ways to communicate with God.
1] By action or Karma (deeds)
2] Through knowledge or Jnana
3] Devotion or Bhakti.

The way I personally experience God is by praying to him--devotion.
My personal prayers have been answered under difficult circumstances. You might say they are just a coincidence or something else. If it happened once then I would agree, but numerous times is more than a coincidence.

Since I worship Krishna I sit and repeat his name in my mind. As a Hindu we also have an image of God which I can look at and pray to. I could look at the symbol AUM (if no image is available) so it doesn’t have to be an image of a God. If someone can pray to God without an image then that is good also.
To you it’s all going to sound very weird-- but that’s expected to someone who is not a Hindu. Its all natural to millions of Hindus who worship in this way daily.
So I would instruct you to pray in this way so that you too can prove to yourself that God exist.
Firstly take a bath, wear clean clothes, sit in a clean room where sound is nil or if you like play music which is peaceful, often incenses is a good way to make the atmosphere smell nice –although air fresheners are great in today’s time.
Mediate on the name of God. If no name comes to you then simply take a deep breath (not very deep) and as you exhale you make the sound ‘Aum’. Keep stretching the name ‘AUM’ as long you are exhaling. Aum sounds like Home.   
Day by day as you begin to connect with God, you are surely to have experience of God. Talk to God. Ask God what ever you like but in a respectful way. Discuss whatever is in your mind because the answers will be given. No prayers ever go unheard.
Three qualities or gunas are described in Hinduism. They are sattva, rajas and tamas. The three qualities –to put it the most simplest way are –Goodness, Passion, Darkness.
They all exist within us and one is either dominant to the other or these emotions and qualities interchange at different times in different moods. We need to keep the sattva quality in dominance over others where possible.
•   Sattva is -- Purity, compassion, wisdom, knowledge, understanding, comprehension, recognition, generosity, patience, kindness
•   Rajas -- Desire, attachment, possessiveness, hyperactivity, fear, nervousness, anxiety, aggressiveness, competitiveness, power, prestige, name and fame
•   Tamas -- Impurity, greed, anger, dullness, envy, jealousy, delusion, confusion, depression, stupor, unconsciousness, coma
Anyway the point of mentioning them is that-- when we approach God-- we must do so with our best qualities of Goodness. With humility and love and peace.
Jesus said:-  "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'

This is the prescribed method of seeing God in all religions (with different variations off course).
If you are unable to pray like this ie to seek the God; the proof you are looking for; and is still seeking some other ways; then I dont think I can show you because this is the one way I know that works for me so it would be foolish of me to tell you other ways that I haven’t tried.
I dont know what other ways you have tried and Im not saying that this way is superior to any other ways either.
When experience what I experienced; make the judgement for you own self –God or no God.
That was presented from a devotional point of view. If you want to know about God through knowledge or Jnana then please read this interesting question answer on God. But you might decide its inconclusive after having read it. Anyway its for info only. Its the teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi Edited by David Godman
http://www.hinduism.co.za/god.htm
The other is to read the Bhagvad Gita which is one o the Hindu books that gives in details the conversation between God and one of his ‘friend’ Arjuna. This is for you info only and you can read at your leisure when you time. Its not to convince you of my arguments or convert you or anything like that. I think you might like as the teachings are universal—like the teachings of Jesus—and if you removed the soul and God bits you might even like it. The chapter one is hard to get through but chapter two is where you could start. It does have a lot of Hindus terminology and this could get in the way of understanding the message. Anyway its there if ever in the future you wish to consider reading. 


2]
I wrote:- [[Once you submit to God then you are ready to see God... Humility has to come before God reveals himself.

You replied:- That, IMO, is complete and utter nonsense that is used as an excuse for why gods don't show up.  To an alleged being of such immense power, the difference between a human's "humility" and a human's "pride" would be infinitesimal.]]

My reply:- Humility is a powerful emotion and a virtue that wins friends, family, business, self confidence etc then what to speak of obtaining God. Arrogance is the opposite and no friends or family will show up if you behave/speak to them in such manners.

‘Submitting’ is humility. If you take a mental approach that “There is no God” “There is no God”   “There is no God”   “There is no God”   “There is no God”    then there is no God.
So once you submit that God exist then the way forward is easy.

Speaking with humility automatically attracts people to us. So use that to attract God.
Pride and arrogance are not infinitesimal even to a God. The satvic quality must be in full ascendance to approach God.


Again you might ask (as you did in question 1) is that just another way of deluding your own nature into believing in a God?
No.
Because the experience you have will tell you otherwise.
You have a solid mind and Im sure you wont be easily fooled by your experiences.


What if you don’t get an experience or an answer?
‘The negative doubt must be removed and approach with a positive frame of mind.’ This is what my school teacher always told us before the exams. The right attitude and frame of mind ie Positive thinking.



3]
I wrote:- [[Repeating the name of God sends out vibrations/singles/energy that connects us with God.]]

You relied :- [[I think it just sends vibrations out for a short distance, whereupon they lose energy and die out.  Unless a god is already in close physical proximity, in which case it should already know what we want or need just by observing us, such prayers are doomed to fail because humans just don't possess that much vocal power.]]

My answer:- In certain Hindu beliefs we say there are two souls. One is your own and the other is that of God. There is no need for shouting. He is already hearing your every thoughts.
He sits there quietly observing all you do.
He knows what you want but you haven’t given it permission to fulfil your needs.
As Jesus said “Let Thy will be done not mine”-- and God will help.

So why don’t people leave everything to God?
The ego gets in the way and desire for things other than God.
These perhaps block our path to God.

You might ask what about when we desire God? Is that desire not bad?
‘Desiring’ God is different to ‘desiring’ other material things because the highest form of desire is God.


Now why doesn’t he just take control and fulfil all your wishes anyway?
Free will ( i dont wish to go into that area of discussion because there are conflicting interpretations from different people).

A mother --more often then not-- knows what her child wants but often does nothing until the child asks for it –be it money, toys, food, some favour etc. I also speak form experience.
God may know what you want but you have to approach and ask. He lets you do things your way till you are ready to be with him---(unfortunately when we do things our own way it may include crimes—This is when the ‘Tamsic’ nature is in the ascendance). 


The Rishis (seers of truth), absorbed in meditation, saw within themselves the ultimate Reality, the self-luminous Being, the one God, who dwells as the self-conscious power in all creatures. Deep within all beings He dwells, hidden from sight by the coverings of the gunas – sattwa, Rajas, and Tamas.





4] Logical fallacies:  Special pleading, and strawman.  agnostic atheists – Gnostic
 
Your said:- [[You can't just declare your "truth" to be better than ours, and arbitrarily dismiss our counter-argument. ]]

My reply:- Point noted.
I said that because we seem to be countering each others arguments hours on end and getting no where.
My truth is better than your –no my truth is better than your.
This is why I keep saying God has to be experienced personally. 



You said :- [["We find your alleged 'new truth' unconvincing."]]

My reply:- That’s fair enough. That was also said by some 5,000 years ago.
But again I repeat, --since God is a personal experience then surely you have to do something yourself to find God. Its not likely that anyone is ever going to stand him before you and say “here is GOD”. 

I have prayed to God that God shows himself to you and if you will receive him with the right frame of mind then he will show himself.






5]

I said:- The fact that they believed –then this is the ‘Truth’.  Hence Jesus was real –people don't often believe in unreal stuff.


You said:- [[[That, sir, is ridiculous.  People have believed in unreal stuff for untold centuries.  They often do this because someone else told them it was real, and they lacked the information to know otherwise.]]]

My reply:- You are correct. Its the lack of information to know otherwise that made people believe in unreal stuff like demons, vampires, ghosts, Draculas witches etc
(OK so you might consider adding God in my list as unreal.)

But unlike God people have dismissed ghosts and vampires and aliens and witches, Santa clause etc because of the better information they have now received.
The better information about God still has not enabled billions to dismiss God. So he is still real, because in my opinion and the opinion of the billions, he is real.


Truth. What really is truth and what is false?
The only truth is from the one who experiences God.




6]
I said:- God has not been proven false.

You replied:- Logical fallacy:  Shifting the burden of proof.  You have to prove your god to be true.  We are under no obligation to prove it false.


My reply:- I think you took a sentence out of a large paragraph on me trying to explain the truth and untruth. It should be read as a whole. I have not shifted the burden. You have only chosen to interpret it that way. Infact i may have confused you because it was directed more towards Aaaron123 in reply to his ‘Heaven's Gate’ believers so I apologise.


I am not trying to convert you or force you into believing in a God. We are merely asking questions in this forum so in a way the burden of proof falls on both of us to prove each others claims. The sentence was required in my paragraph and so it was made.

7]
To the remainder of the points I would just repeat myself—
Experience what many of have experienced, witnessed, seen by worshippers--then by all means you are welcome to dismiss God.
8]
All the best

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on June 10, 2013, 05:27:51 PM
This post is for Aaron123 only.

Aaron123 this is going to be my last reply because I believe we are just going round in circles trying to give each other clever answers and secondly the moderators are not going to tolerate my inability to post correctly.  I will off course read all your replies. Please accept my apologies for any replies that appeared arrogant or otherwise.  It was nice discussing with you.

1]
I said :- [[I think you have to prove to yourself that God exist; since you have refused to taken anyone else’s word for it..........]]

You replied:- [[[These two comments comes off to me as "you have to believe in god before you can believe in god".  Instead of accepting the possiblily that god doesn't exist, the blame must reside on the person in question.]]

My reply:- My comment was made after you and others claimed you had already believed/prayed/searched a God. So in a way you had already believed in a God and Im not telling you anything different.

Further more –YES—you have to believe something exist if you are to search for it or prove of its existence.
 


2]
You replied:- [[[You've also invoked the "egotisic atheist" and "angry at god atheist" arguements.  How many times does it have to be said?  Atheists are not angry at god (since it's silly to be angry at a non-existence thing), and atheists are no more egotisic than the averge person.  Heck, in some way, I'd say we're less egotisic (at least in the sense that we don't think we're some divine being's special creation).]]]


My reply:- [["egotisic atheist" and "angry at god atheist" arguments]]
So I should just ignore/overlook ‘your’ ego and anger because that argument has been put forward by many before me.

My reply to your [[atheists are no more egotisic than the averge person.]]
The difference between both is none. It exists and stops our progress towards God.


My reply to your  [[Atheists are not angry at god (since it's silly to be angry at a non-existence thing)]]
No you are only angry at those who claim to worship a God rather than a God itself.


My reply to your  :- [[Heck, in some way, I'd say we're less egotisic (at least in the sense that we don't think we're some divine being's special creation)]]

If I declare i am my fathers son then this is not ego. Its fact.
If i claim I am divine beings special creation then that is fact and not ego.

If however  i say you are NOT a special creation of the Divine then this is my ego.
If thats what you think worshippers are doing then the worshippers are obviously deluded.




3]
I said:- [[[[Again some of the answers from some of you sound like
“Im right, You’re wrong. Full stop! End of!” ]]
 

You replied:- [[[You keep repeating this line.  I think this is actually your arguement.]]]


My reply:- This is my summary of the arguments used by all of you so far and Im sorry you dont like it. I dont have that special posh name for it.

You all keep giving my side of the arguments some posh names (Logical fallacies,  Special pleading, and strawman. Induality, I am  agnostic atheists – Gnostic atheists –etc etc etc) .  (I was surprised you didn’t have a posh name for [["egotisic atheist" and "angry at god atheist" –haha may be you do).



4]
I said:- [[Im sorry but that’s just another assumption that every scientist and Kings and Emperors and teachers and intellect from the last 10,000 years are ALL FLAWED HUMAN BEINGS.]]

You replied:- [[I don't even understand this counter-arguement (if it can be called that).  You seem to have a problem with my statement that scientists and kings are flawed human beings.  Uh, because...?
Every human beings are flawed.  I doubt anyone denies that.  There's a reason the expression "nobody's perfect" exists.  Why is it such a big thing for you to consider that certain people, because of their occupations, are also flawed?  I can only guess that by accepting that train of thought, it'll tear holes into your arguements.]]]



My reply:- Flawed—I thought you were using the argument that because we are not all perfect,  then it meant all those people had wrong idea about God and were just wrong to follow a God ie hence flawed in that respect.

Again to me it seemed you were just dismissing the intellect of everyone on the planet that exists or ever existed who believed in a God.

Yes "nobody's perfect"; but we are all working towards perfection and this is what Hinduism is partly about; hence re-incarnations.




5]
You replied:-  [[I noticed that you didn't comment at all about the Heaven's Gate thing.  Was there, in fact, an alien spaceship waiting for those people (since they committed mass suicude for me)?  Is there any chance that they were (very) tragically delusional?]]]

My reply:- I thought I had addressed this when I said about Jesus and the ‘Truth’.

Heaven's Gate --The same argument can be used about Santa clause. Some people (especially children) believe that Santa Clause exist because they have been convinced by stories about him. When he does not bring them their desired gifts they cry about it. Is there any chance that they were delusional?

People dying for Jesus is ‘perhaps’ in a way similar to people dying for some aliens.
That is they believed with absolute faith --what was being told to them was the Truth.

In the case of the alien believers when the truth was proven untruth—they became disillusioned and committed suicide.
In the case of believers of Jesus, they were forced to abandon their ways and they didn’t.


The story of Jesus was True to people, aliens were True for some people, Santa clause was true for some.  So who believes in the ‘real’ Truth? They all believed in the what was ‘Truth’ for them from their knowledge at the time and place.

Heaven's Gate --According to the information they received and how they deciphered this information, they decided that this information was the Truth. When the story of aliens is put in such an intellectual way then some naturally were convinced it was the truth.
Sometimes the press tells lies and we believe them, sometimes Government plays tricks with our minds about wars or about some alien area 51, even films convince us otherwise and its so easy to believe everything and anything.
However these people committed suicide only when they found out the reality of their truth was  lie.
Children only cried when their truth did not come into reality ie did not receive the desired presents. 
The truth becomes untruth only when it was proven false.
God has not been proven false.
God was real at the dawn of time and today.
Today people have not yet lost faith in Jesus. So he is still the Truth.

Those who do give up believing in God, Im sure have numerous reasons to do so. But they only act according to their belief and not proof ie they have not proved that God did not exist. Not finding a way to connect with God is not a reason to say he does not exist.




6] All the best
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on June 10, 2013, 05:31:17 PM
This reply is for Anfauglir only
Hello Anfauglir this is going to be my last reply because I believe we are just going round in circles trying to give each other clever answers and secondly the moderators are not going to tolerate my inability to post correctly  I will off course read all your replies. Please accept my apologies for any replies that appeared arrogant or otherwise.  I hope you will understand my last attempt to reply to you only.




1]
I wrote:- [[At the time of the thought --this was the only Truth available to them so those people were right.]]

You replied:- [[No.  They weren't.  Unless you are suggesting that the sun DID circle the Earth until enough people believed in the alternative?]]


My reply:- It is easy to speak of what is false and what is truth after we know the facts. But just go back in time when everyone was saying ‘the world is flat’, the sun is going around the earth’. I think it would be hard to deny otherwise, unless you had better proof, at that time. So in those days this was their truth. (Today we know its nonsense.) But we have to keep the time and state of mens mind at that time.


2]
You replied [[Fact is, they were wrong.  Wrong for good reason, perhaps, but still wrong. Because if you are going to suggest that "the only Truth available to them (meant) those people were right", then I expect you to agree that I am right when I say "there is no god".  Literally.  I expect you to say "Anfauglir is right when he says there is no god", or retract that nonsense you posted above.]]

My reply :- They were wrong but it was their truth at that moment in time.
I agree that you may believe ‘there is no God’. This is your perceived truth but not mine. I cannot agree with your truth when I have experienced God?
You are only making your belief into the truth because you cant prove God by your own faith because you have not been able to see, hear or experience God which many of us have.
God is a personal experience and i cant prove him for you.
You must prove God for yourself.


Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on June 10, 2013, 05:32:44 PM
This reply is for median only

Hello Median this is going to be my last reply because I believe we are just going round in circles trying to give each other clever answers and secondly the moderators are not going to tolerate my inability to post correctly  I will off course read all your replies. Please accept my apologies for any replies that appeared arrogant or otherwise.  I hope you will understand the format of my reply to you only.

You said [[You need to demonstrate your claims Kiran. Stop claiming and start demonstrating.]]
My reply :- My friend you didn’t read my reply. The proof is with you and not me. God is a personal experience which I have said from the beginning.
So try your best to experience God.

I will leave you a demonstration of how this is done from my point of understanding and how i came to experience God. I hope it works for you too (should you try it)
Hinduism explains three ways to communicate with God.
1] By action or Karma (deeds)
2] Through knowledge or Jnana
3] Devotion or Bhakti.

The way I personally experience God is by praying to him--devotion.
My personal prayers have been answered under difficult circumstances. You might say they are just a coincidence or something else. If it happened once then I would agree, but numerous times is more than a coincidence.
Since I worship Krishna I sit and repeat his name in my mind. As a Hindu we also have an image of God which I can look at and pray to. I could look at the symbol AUM (if no image is available) so it doesn’t have to be an image of a God. If someone can pray to God without an image then that is good also.
To you it’s all going to sound very weird-- but that’s expected to someone who is not a Hindu. Its all natural to millions of Hindus who worship in this way daily.
So I would instruct you to pray in this way so that you too can prove to yourself that God exist.
Firstly take a bath, wear clean clothes, sit in a clean room where sound is nil or if you like play music which is peaceful, often incenses is a good way to make the atmosphere smell nice –although air fresheners are great in today’s time.
Mediate on the name of God. If no name comes to you then simply take a deep breath (not very deep) and as you exhale you make the sound ‘Aum’. Keep stretching the name ‘AUM’ as long you are exhaling. Aum sounds like Home.   
Day by day as you begin to connect with God, you are surely to have experience of God. Talk to God. Ask God what ever you like but in a respectful way. Discuss whatever is in your mind because the answers will be given. No prayers ever go unheard.
Three qualities or gunas are described in Hinduism. They are sattva, rajas and tamas. The three qualities –to put it the most simplest way are –Goodness, Passion, Darkness.
They all exist within us and one is either dominant to the other or these emotions and qualities interchange at different times in different moods. We need to keep the sattva quality in dominance over others where possible.
•   Sattva is -- Purity, compassion, wisdom, knowledge, understanding, comprehension, recognition, generosity, patience, kindness
•   Rajas -- Desire, attachment, possessiveness, hyperactivity, fear, nervousness, anxiety, aggressiveness, competitiveness, power, prestige, name and fame
•   Tamas -- Impurity, greed, anger, dullness, envy, jealousy, delusion, confusion, depression, stupor, unconsciousness, coma
Anyway the point of mentioning them is that-- when we approach God-- we must do so with our best qualities of Goodness. With humility and love and peace.
Jesus said:-  "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
If you are unable to pray like this ie to seek the God; the proof you are looking for; and is still seeking some other ways; then I dont think I can show you because this is the one way I know that works for me so it would be foolish of me to tell you other ways that I haven’t tried.
I dont know what other ways you have tried and Im not saying that this way is superior to any other ways either.
When you experience what I experienced; make the judgement for you own self –God or no God.
That was presented from a devotional point of view.

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on June 10, 2013, 05:34:21 PM
This reply is for scretape only

screwtape 

My apologies and this is my last post to everyone  if you are able to tolerate it one last time.

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: screwtape on June 10, 2013, 05:46:26 PM
This reply is for scretape only

screwtape 

My apologies and this is my last post to everyone  if you are able to tolerate it one last time.

I appreciate the apology, but it is unnecessary.  You were not breaking the rules.  What I told you was friendly help so that you could be better understood. You may take my advice or not without penalty.  Neither choice will result in penalty.


edit - reworded for clarification.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Aaron123 on June 10, 2013, 09:30:08 PM
This post is for Aaron123 only.

Aaron123 this is going to be my last reply because I believe we are just going round in circles trying to give each other clever answers and secondly the moderators are not going to tolerate my inability to post correctly.  I will off course read all your replies. Please accept my apologies for any replies that appeared arrogant or otherwise.  It was nice discussing with you.

Well, several days later, after thinking this conversation has been dropped, I'm not sure I'm up for it again, but here goes...

Quote
1]
My reply:- My comment was made after you and others claimed you had already believed/prayed/searched a God. So in a way you had already believed in a God and Im not telling you anything different.

Further more –YES—you have to believe something exist if you are to search for it or prove of its existence.
 

What this tells me is that searching for god is an excerise in confirmation bias. (since I already believe in the existence of what I am searching evidence for)



Quote
2]
My reply:- [["egotisic atheist" and "angry at god atheist" arguments]]
So I should just ignore/overlook ‘your’ ego and anger because that argument has been put forward by many before me.


You do not know me.  You are projecting ego and anger onto me.


Quote
The difference between both is none. It exists and stops our progress towards God.


Whatever that means...  :blank:


Quote
No you are only angry at those who claim to worship a God rather than a God itself.


Again, projection.


Quote
If I declare i am my fathers son then this is not ego. Its fact.
If i claim I am divine beings special creation then that is fact and not ego.


Your father's existence can be verified.  Fact of fatherhood can be determined thru DNA testing.  The same cannot be said about your god.  Your analogy is... poor, to say the least.


Quote
If however  i say you are NOT a special creation of the Divine then this is my ego.

Not being a special creation of divine is fact, not ego.


Quote
If thats what you think worshippers are doing then the worshippers are obviously deluded.


Well, I can't argue here.


Quote
3]
My reply:- This is my summary of the arguments used by all of you so far and Im sorry you dont like it. I dont have that special posh name for it.

You all keep giving my side of the arguments some posh names (Logical fallacies,  Special pleading, and strawman. Induality, I am  agnostic atheists – Gnostic atheists –etc etc etc) .  (I was surprised you didn’t have a posh name for [["egotisic atheist" and "angry at god atheist" –haha may be you do).


Sounds like your issue may be unfamiliarity with the terms in questions.  You appear to think that words like "strawman", "special pleading" and "agnostic/gnostic" are buzz words designed to sound really fancy when they're not.  I can tell you, those are real terms, and it's important that you learn them if you wish to debate people online (or face-to-face, for that matter).  I'm not saying you should take a college seminar, but you can do some online research.  Go ahead, take the time to learn these words.  You'll be glad you did.



Quote
4]
My reply:- Flawed—I thought you were using the argument that because we are not all perfect,  then it meant all those people had wrong idea about God and were just wrong to follow a God ie hence flawed in that respect.

Again to me it seemed you were just dismissing the intellect of everyone on the planet that exists or ever existed who believed in a God.

Yes "nobody's perfect"; but we are all working towards perfection and this is what Hinduism is partly about; hence re-incarnations.



Again, I don't understand why you have an issue with certain people (historial figures and gurus) simply being wrong about their religious beliefs.




Quote
5]
My reply:- I thought I had addressed this when I said about Jesus and the ‘Truth’.

Heaven's Gate --The same argument can be used about Santa clause. Some people (especially children) believe that Santa Clause exist because they have been convinced by stories about him. When he does not bring them their desired gifts they cry about it. Is there any chance that they were delusional?

People dying for Jesus is ‘perhaps’ in a way similar to people dying for some aliens.
That is they believed with absolute faith --what was being told to them was the Truth.

In the case of the alien believers when the truth was proven untruth—they became disillusioned and committed suicide.
In the case of believers of Jesus, they were forced to abandon their ways and they didn’t.



No, they did not commit suicide due to disillusionment, they did it because they thought that their souls would be taken up to a UFO.


Quote
The story of Jesus was True to people, aliens were True for some people, Santa clause was true for some.  So who believes in the ‘real’ Truth? They all believed in the what was ‘Truth’ for them from their knowledge at the time and place.

Heaven's Gate --According to the information they received and how they deciphered this information, they decided that this information was the Truth. When the story of aliens is put in such an intellectual way then some naturally were convinced it was the truth.
Sometimes the press tells lies and we believe them, sometimes Government plays tricks with our minds about wars or about some alien area 51, even films convince us otherwise and its so easy to believe everything and anything.
However these people committed suicide only when they found out the reality of their truth was  lie.

Again, these people thought they really would go to a UFO.  There was not a mass disillusionment going on.


Quote
Children only cried when their truth did not come into reality ie did not receive the desired presents. 
The truth becomes untruth only when it was proven false.
God has not been proven false.


God has not been proven true.  That you cannot prove god true is far more important than proving god false.


Quote
God was real at the dawn of time and today.
Today people have not yet lost faith in Jesus. So he is still the Truth.

I'm confused.  Are you arguing for hinduism or christainity?  They can't both be true.


Quote
Those who do give up believing in God, Im sure have numerous reasons to do so. But they only act according to their belief and not proof ie they have not proved that God did not exist.

I don't know if anyone pointed this out to you, but the non-believers are not under any burden to prove the non-existence of god.  It's up to the believer to demostrate that god does exist.  Thus far, you have not done this.


Quote
Not finding a way to connect with God is not a reason to say he does not exist.

Not finding any reasonble evidence for god is a good enough reason to say he does not exist.  Thus far, you only refered to the gods of hinduism and the god of christainity.  What about all the other possible gods out there?  Do you believe in the greek gods?  If not, what reason do you have, since you didn't find a way to connect with them?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on June 11, 2013, 01:00:06 AM
You said [[You need to demonstrate your claims Kiran. Stop claiming and start demonstrating.]]
My reply :- My friend you didn’t read my reply. The proof is with you and not me. God is a personal experience which I have said from the beginning.
So try your best to experience God.

Little boys and girls claim to have a "personal experience" with invisible friends (even Santa Claus). Your claim here is no different than superstition. Secondly, it assumes what you need to prove (namely that there is such a thing as "God"). Again, your "personal experience" is not proof for anyone (not even you), because personal experiences alone have been shown to be VERY unreliable. Why is your standard of evidence so low?

I will leave you a demonstration of how this is done from my point of understanding and how i came to experience God. I hope it works for you too (should you try it)
Hinduism explains three ways to communicate with God.
1] By action or Karma (deeds)
2] Through knowledge or Jnana
3] Devotion or Bhakti.

The way I personally experience God is by praying to him--devotion.

This is the logical fallacy called BEGGING THE QUESTION. You have ASSUMED there is a God even BEFORE starting to pray. That is absurd. Would I be correct if I just ASSUMED pink magic monkeys created everything 10 seconds ago?

Your method for separating fact from fiction is both flawed and hypocritical. Praying to what you think is a God, doesn't make it a God b/c you can easily be fooling yourself based upon your own presupposition.

My personal prayers have been answered under difficult circumstances.

If your interpretation of "answered prayer" is supposed to be proof of God, then is unanswered prayer proof that there is no God? Your alleged proof works both ways Kiran. Btw, evidence is NOT personal. It is demonstrable to others.

You might say they are just a coincidence or something else. If it happened once then I would agree, but numerous times is more than a coincidence.

So your definition of a "miracle of God" is simply a rare event? How can you distinguish between miracles and rare events?

What you are showing here is that - put simply - YOU ARE GULLIBLE.

Since I worship Krishna I sit and repeat his name in my mind. As a Hindu we also have an image of God which I can look at and pray to. I could look at the symbol AUM (if no image is available) so it doesn’t have to be an image of a God. If someone can pray to God without an image then that is good also.
To you it’s all going to sound very weird-- but that’s expected to someone who is not a Hindu. Its all natural to millions of Hindus who worship in this way daily.

And Christians, Muslims, and Jews say the same thing. So what. Saying something is so doesn't make it so.

So I would instruct you to pray in this way so that you too can prove to yourself that God exist.

There is no "prove to yourself". That sentence makes absolutely no sense. It is NONSENSE. If you have proved something then it is, by definition, demonstrable to others. What you have done is CONVINCED YOURSELF. Every religion does that. So what. All you're doing is practicing being gullible.

Firstly take a bath, wear clean clothes, sit in a clean room where sound is nil or if you like play music which is peaceful, often incenses is a good way to make the atmosphere smell nice –although air fresheners are great in today’s time.
Mediate on the name of God. If no name comes to you then simply take a deep breath (not very deep) and as you exhale you make the sound ‘Aum’. Keep stretching the name ‘AUM’ as long you are exhaling. Aum sounds like Home.   
Day by day as you begin to connect with God, you are surely to have experience of God. Talk to God. Ask God what ever you like but in a respectful way. Discuss whatever is in your mind because the answers will be given. No prayers ever go unheard.

Sorry, didn't work. Feelings are not God. Btw, when you sat down to do this exercise you already ASSUMED god exists. You started with your conclusion. That is backwards. And it is lazy and dishonest.

Three qualities or gunas are described in Hinduism. They are sattva, rajas and tamas. The three qualities –to put it the most simplest way are –Goodness, Passion, Darkness.
They all exist within us and one is either dominant to the other or these emotions and qualities interchange at different times in different moods. We need to keep the sattva quality in dominance over others where possible.
•   Sattva is -- Purity, compassion, wisdom, knowledge, understanding, comprehension, recognition, generosity, patience, kindness
•   Rajas -- Desire, attachment, possessiveness, hyperactivity, fear, nervousness, anxiety, aggressiveness, competitiveness, power, prestige, name and fame
•   Tamas -- Impurity, greed, anger, dullness, envy, jealousy, delusion, confusion, depression, stupor, unconsciousness, coma
Anyway the point of mentioning them is that-- when we approach God-- we must do so with our best qualities of Goodness. With humility and love and peace.

This is just more fallacious reasoning. Where is your rational mind? I mean, the same one you use to determine if a salesman is lying to you! You say, "When we approach God..." No, STOP! You haven't demonstrated there's a God. You just keep ASSUMING IT. But you can't assume your position. You need to provide evidence and demonstration. Otherwise there is no sound reason to think your claims are any different than any other superstition/fantasy/credulity. 

Jesus said:-  "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'

We'll set aside how you think you know what Jesus said (cause you are gullible). I don't care what Jesus supposedly said, what Krishna said, what Buddha said, or anyone else. If something is wrong, it's wrong. I don't care who said it. You are choosing to pick and choose pieces of the bible to believe (b/c they tickle your ears and agree with your assumptions). Why? Why do you keep assuming your position is true?

If you are unable to pray like this ie to seek the God; the proof you are looking for; and is still seeking some other ways; then I dont think I can show you because this is the one way I know that works for me so it would be foolish of me to tell you other ways that I haven’t tried.

Every religion always retreats back into "personal experience", which can't be tested, can't be falsified, or cannot be demonstrated. Do you know who also does this? All of the other superstitious dumb-dumbs in the world! Your "method" is flawed. It gives us no reliable way to determine fact from fiction.

I'll ask you what I ask most religious people: Do you actually care whether or not your beliefs are true? If so, you're not showing it.

I dont know what other ways you have tried and Im not saying that this way is superior to any other ways either.
When you experience what I experienced; make the judgement for you own self –God or no God.
That was presented from a devotional point of view.

"Devotional"? Oh, so you were DEVOTED to the religion your parents raised you in long ago. That's the same as every religion, but it doesn't help anyone to accurately determine what is true from what is false.

You need to stop practicing CREDULITY and start getting rational and honest. [/quote]
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Anfauglir on June 11, 2013, 02:46:35 AM
Hello Anfauglir this is going to be my last reply because I believe we are just going round in circles.....

Yes, you are, aren't you.  Perhaps because you like to twist and turn and redefine words and avoid the consequences of what you say.

You said:

Quote from: kiran
this was the only Truth available to them so those people were right

I pointed out to you that they were NOT right.  They were wrong.  They thought they were right, sure - but they were wrong.

I asked you to retract your statement.  You replied:

Quote from: kiran
.....go back in time when everyone was saying ‘the world is flat’, the sun is going around the earth’. I think it would be hard to deny otherwise, unless you had better proof, at that time. So in those days this was their truth. (Today we know its nonsense.) But we have to keep the time and state of mens mind at that time.

A very weasel-worded way of saying that you agree with me, without having to come right out and admit you were wrong - that they were NOT right in what they believed.  But that's not the important point:

Quote from: Anfauglir
Fact is, they were wrong.  Wrong for good reason, perhaps, but still wrong. Because if you are going to suggest that "the only Truth available to them (meant) those people were right", then I expect you to agree that I am right when I say "there is no god".  Literally.  I expect you to say "Anfauglir is right when he says there is no god", or retract that nonsense you posted above.

You said:

Quote from: kiran
I agree that you may believe ‘there is no God’. This is your perceived truth but not mine. I cannot agree with your truth when I have experienced God?  You are only making your belief into the truth because you cant prove God by your own faith because you have not been able to see, hear or experience God which many of us have.

...and not only missed the point, but COMPLETELY contradicted what you said before.  You CAN'T bring yourself to agree with my statement because you "know better" - which is fine.  But that position flat out contradicts the position you took before, which is intellectually dishonest.

Let me lay it out for you.

Men in 1200 (say).  "The sun goes round the earth".  Were they right or wrong?
Anfauglir in 2103.  "There is no god."  Am I right or wrong?

If you cannot give the same answer to the two questions, then you need to explain why not.  I have no problem if you say "right" for both answers.  I have no problem if you say "wrong" for both answers.  But you are trying to give different answers to those two questions, by dramatically shifting your argument between the two, and that simply won't wash.

And learn to quote.  It's easy to do, it's courteous to others, and makes it FAR easier to follow conversations.....or is that last the reason you avoid doing it?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on June 11, 2013, 10:10:07 AM
Kiran,
I don't believe for one second that you have decided to stop posting here merely due to the moderators. Like many religious people who come here, you have decided to stop posting because you are losing the battle. Your arguments for God are irrational, illogical, and just plain credulous. Perhaps you should get honest with yourself and stop being so closed-minded and arrogant. Face the fact that you could be wrong about what you think you experienced. People interpret their experiences falsely all the time b/c those experiences are easily mistaken, and as a result they (like you) wind up believing false things. Until you become open to the possibility that you are mistaken you will be blocking yourself from discovering truth.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Astreja on June 11, 2013, 12:56:18 PM
Astreja this is probably going to be my last reply because I believe we are just going round in circles...

Yes, we are talking past each other.  I am, however, going to sum up a couple of My points regarding your arguments.

First and foremost, I disagree vehemently with your interpretation of what is real and what is not real.  An entity should not magically "poof" into or out of existence depending on who believes in it.  That doesn't work with gravity.  It doesn't work with tables.  Why should it work with gods?

I am not inclined towards acts of religious worship and devotion.  I have been this way all My life.  At best I would be pretending to worship, and knowing that I was pretending.

I also hate to waste time that I could be spending in a more productive manner. Given a choice between praying to a god and playing My clarinet, the clarinet wins 100% of the time.  I'm vastly more likely to "worship" a C# minor arpeggio than to worship Krishna.

Finally, I don't think you realize quite how many logical fallacies you're still using in your arguments.  Burden of proof is still 100% yours, as you are the one making the positive claim (that your god exists).  Number of believers is irrelevant to the truth of the matter.  Special pleading that vampires and witches are false but gods are real.  If this is the kind of shoddy thinking that your religious beliefs have inspired, I want no part of it.

Quote
I have prayed to God that God shows himself to you and if you will receive him with the right frame of mind then he will show himself.

I am not even going to attempt to alter My frame of mind to accommodate your prayer.  I predict that the prayer shall fail, and that there's nothing either you or your alleged god can do about it.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on June 15, 2013, 02:57:37 PM
To all of you  :blank:

You know its so difficult to write the right words and sentences without offending or accusing anyone of anything. But despite my best efforts, Im sure my words, tone of language may have been misinterpreted and caused offence, hurt, annoy someone/everyone. If I have said something bluntly then it was never personal. Looking back i think I could have given better answers but its done now ..... &)

I think this conversation has gone long enough because as I said we are just trying to give each other smart answers and the bottom line is i cant prove God to you straight away. .
I can continue with this conversation but I am involved in another ‘project’ at work which requires more of my time.
Im sorry that many of your questions remains unanswered.  :(


Median
I cant believe you even wrote that Im stopping because Im loosing the battle.   :o

I didn’t know I was in some kind of a competition or a fight.  :laugh:
We are merely discussing.   8)

Im not even trying to convert you or force you or prove my way is the only way.
Many times over I have said I cant prove God to you and so i dont have anything to prove.
My claim to God is my experience and you all need to understand that.
By the way the moderators don’t mind my inability to post correctly so I could spend more time talking to you all, but I don’t think anything will come of it.


I do take on board all of the points and questions and links you have made and others have made. Im not going to ignore them, but at this point o time Im not capable of giving a valid answer to them all with my limited knowledge.  :-X :-\



Aaaron
This argument that you cant search for God because then that would mean you are accepting god exist is wrong.
When we look for clues of aliens we just assume that they may exist and don’t really know that they exist.
We look for ghosts knowing they may exist and not because we know they exist.
You cna therefore look for a God knowing he may exist and not because you know he exist.
In my case God already exist for me so no proof is needed for my self. Well I have had enough proof in my lifetime to not believe in a God.

Similarly I have given instructions on how to find God. It’s a systematic approach and you can ignore it or try it.

As to What about all the other possible gods out there? Ive already explained all that in various replies to others.
I think i was talking to too many people at once and thoughts got lost as to who said what and who im supposed to say to.

Everyone worships according to their level of intellect
Krishna says ‘people worship him with different names and different forms, but in the end they all worship Me.’
So people worship God according to their level of understanding of God, so it makes no difference about Odin or Thor or Zeus or Jesus or Indra or others. All think they worship a God and they do.

I also said God is a personal experience and unless you look God for yourself then I cant supply him in a test tube for you.


Anfauglir
Im still right and youre still wrong .  ;D
You just need to see where my logic is coming from.  8)
And dont take offence Im not being arrogant  :)




Astreja

[[I don't think you realize quite how many logical fallacies you're still using in your arguments. ]]
Hehe Im just glad they are logical. We have to laugh at ourselves ...


I said [[I have prayed to God that God shows himself to you.....]]
You replied [[I am not even going to attempt to alter My frame of mind to accommodate your prayer.  I predict that the prayer shall fail, and that there's nothing either you or your alleged god can do about it.]]

I think you’re going to be first to see God :)  :angel:

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on June 15, 2013, 04:53:09 PM


Median
I cant believe you even wrote that Im stopping because Im loosing the battle.   :o

I didn’t know I was in some kind of a competition or a fight.  :laugh:
We are merely discussing.   8)

Im not even trying to convert you or force you or prove my way is the only way.
Many times over I have said I cant prove God to you and so i dont have anything to prove.
My claim to God is my experience and you all need to understand that.
By the way the moderators don’t mind my inability to post correctly so I could spend more time talking to you all, but I don’t think anything will come of it.

I do take on board all of the points and questions and links you have made and others have made. Im not going to ignore them, but at this point o time Im not capable of giving a valid answer to them all with my limited knowledge.  :-X :-\


If you cannot provide a valid and sound answer then your conclusion regarding your alleged "experience" should be that you DO NOT KNOW what the experience is or means. You should not be saying it is God. I don't care if you are saying your way is "the only way" or not. You are making claims that are unsubstantiated. Your alleged "experience" is exactly what is in question (just like all claimed religious experiences of any other religion). As I've stated elsewhere, religions cannot all be right but they CAN all be wrong.

Regarding "competition", whether you like it or not, you are competing in the marketplace of ideas. And when you provide nothing but irrational arguments in an attempt to support an interpretation of an alleged experience you think you had, then there is no reason to accept that interpretation as true. If you do not care whether your beliefs are true then just say so and this conversation is over. If you do care, the you certainly are not showing it. I, on the other hand, DO care whether or not my beliefs are actually true (which is why I promote critical thinking and rational skepticism). Relying upon personal interpretations of alleged personal experiences is UNRELIABLE for separating fact from fiction - and that is what you are missing. You are practicing credulity (and likely confirmation bias), and that is something that many of us are unwilling to engage in.

Now, it doesn't really matter to me whether or not you have said "I can't prove God to you". If you can't demonstrate this alleged "thing" (which I say is incoherent) then you are relying solely upon your own self-diagnoses (i.e. - personal interpretation), which is highly questionable and fallible, and thus you shouldn't be believing in it!

Again, it's called credulity.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Astreja on June 15, 2013, 11:41:54 PM
Hehe Im just glad they are logical.

You misunderstand "logical fallacy," Kiran.  They indicate weaknesses in one's argument, not strengths.  Short definition:  A logical fallacy is a way of phrasing an argument such that it appears superficially correct but in reality is logically invalid.  Such a fallacy does not make the argument automatically wrong, but it's insufficient to make it right.

Quote
I think you’re going to be first to see God :)

I think you're wrong, unless of course I happen to *be* that god, in which case I've seen Myself in the mirror for quite a few years now.  ;D
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Aaron123 on June 16, 2013, 12:53:02 AM
Aaaron
This argument that you cant search for God because then that would mean you are accepting god exist is wrong.

You were the one that said "you have to believe something exist if you are to search for it or prove of its existence".  That is a statement that, in any other context, you'd know to be wrong.  Finding evidence for something does not depends on whenever you believe it to be true or not.  Either it exists, or it doesn't.


Quote
When we look for clues of aliens we just assume that they may exist and don’t really know that they exist.

There's a fair amount of reasons to assume that aliens are possible.  We know that it's possible for life to exist (ourself), we know it's possible for life to develop technology, including spaceflight (ourself), we know it's possible to try and send messages on spaceprobes (ourself).  We're aware of the existence of other planets in other solor systems.  There are billions of solor systems in this galaxy, it's not inconceivable that at least a handful of them might contain life.  Whenever they're similar to us is a different question, as well the issue of being able to communicate with them (at least at this point in time).

However, things like UFOs and alien abduction are examples of people following poor or nonexistence evidence.


Quote
We look for ghosts knowing they may exist and not because we know they exist.  You cna therefore look for a God knowing he may exist and not because you know he exist.


There are a lot of things that "may exists", such as mermaids, genies, and talking ponies, but unless we have evidence for their existence, there is no reason to look for them or assume that they do exist.  The key word here is evidence, and right now, none has been provided for god.[1]  I'm not sure if that was made clear before, but there is a fine line between "he may exist", and "there is evidence of his existence". 


Quote
In my case God already exist for me so no proof is needed for my self. Well I have had enough proof in my lifetime to not believe in a God.

What does "exist for me" means?  I get the impression it's something like "I think he exists, that's good enough for me!"  Is that right?  If so, that's poor thinking.  The existence or nonexistence of something does not, nor should it, depends on whenever you think it does.



Quote
Similarly I have given instructions on how to find God. It’s a systematic approach and you can ignore it or try it.

Summery?  I don't really feel like going through the thread again.



Quote
As to What about all the other possible gods out there? Ive already explained all that in various replies to others.
I think i was talking to too many people at once and thoughts got lost as to who said what and who im supposed to say to.


Again, summery?


Quote
Everyone worships according to their level of intellect
Krishna says ‘people worship him with different names and different forms, but in the end they all worship Me.’
So people worship God according to their level of understanding of God, so it makes no difference about Odin or Thor or Zeus or Jesus or Indra or others. All think they worship a God and they do.


Keyword here: THINK they worship a god.  That doesn't tell me whenever they are, in fact, worshiping an actual supernatural being.


Quote
I also said God is a personal experience and unless you look God for yourself then I cant supply him in a test tube for you.

Right now, what I get of this is that god is the same as someone's imaginary friend.  An imaginary friend is "a personal experience", you have to have one yourself to understand it, and there is no way to prove that your imaginary friend is real.  From this, I can't see how god is any different.
 1. I can't tell if you're refering to Biblegod, or a god of Hinduism, considering you bring up both
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Anfauglir on June 16, 2013, 02:41:30 AM
Let me lay it out for you.

Men in 1200 (say).  "The sun goes round the earth".  Were they right or wrong?
Anfauglir in 2103.  "There is no god."  Am I right or wrong?

If you cannot give the same answer to the two questions, then you need to explain why not.  I have no problem if you say "right" for both answers.  I have no problem if you say "wrong" for both answers.  But you are trying to give different answers to those two questions, by dramatically shifting your argument between the two, and that simply won't wash.

And learn to quote.  It's easy to do, it's courteous to others, and makes it FAR easier to follow conversations.....or is that last the reason you avoid doing it?

Anfauglir
Im still right and youre still wrong .  ;D
You just need to see where my logic is coming from.  8)
And dont take offence Im not being arrogant  :)

You are being incredibly arrogant.
You still haven't bothered to learn to quote.  How arrogant is that?  To enter someone's "house", and refuse to abide by their simple rules?
And you are being incredibly arrogant by not even trying to answer my question.

If you are not arrogant, you will answer the question, and explain why your answers are different.

Men in 1200 (say).  "The sun goes round the earth".  Were they right or wrong?
Anfauglir in 2103.  "There is no god."  Am I right or wrong?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: kiran on July 02, 2013, 05:26:37 PM
To everyone I have been talking to here

On June 18 I ended up in hospital and am just recovering at home.
I wont try to respond to any posts now as its been such a long time.
However  I did want to say all the very best to you all and I didn’t want you to think I was suddenly dismissing any comments and question, although I did say my previous posts were my last.
Thank you all for your time.
I now reflect on the new me that’s just come out of hospital and reflect on the meaning of life in a new light. This really is the last post. Perhaps oneday I might talk to you in some other topic that I might comment on. But I need to recover my health first. Cheers.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Astreja on July 02, 2013, 10:15:23 PM
Take care, Kiran, and get better soon.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: skepticlogician on July 02, 2013, 11:10:29 PM
What!? Is the show over? ... man... I'm always late to the party   :(
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Anfauglir on July 03, 2013, 07:41:02 AM
On June 18 I ended up in hospital
I'm sorry to hear that.  Glad you're now out.

and am just recovering at home.

Super!  So you will have plenty of time to use the forum and answer our questions!  No work or school or errands to get in the way!

I wont try to respond to any posts now as its been such a long time.

Because.....the answers have changed over the last couple weeks?  Because your opinions have changed?  Because you've seen that you were wrong, but aren't prepared to admit it?

However  I did want to say all the very best to you all and I didn’t want you to think I was suddenly dismissing any comments and question, although I did say my previous posts were my last.

But Kiran, you are doing just that.  You are choosing to leave without answering the questions, so in a very real sense you ARE dismissing them.

Thank you all for your time.
I'm glad you're thanking us, because it now appears that all our time spent with you have been wasted.  All that engagement, all that thought and effort we've put in.....and your response is "well, I'm not going to answer any more".  Faire enough, your choice.  But.....

Perhaps oneday I might talk to you in some other topic that I might comment on.

And why should we bother to read it, if you do?  Seriously, why?  You've demonstrated that you are quit happy to leave in the middle of a discussion when you don't like the way it is going, so why on earth would anyone choose to engage with you on any other topic?  Wouldn't you just leave in the middle again?

But I need to recover my health first. Cheers.

I'd pray, if I were you.  Apparently it works really well.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 04, 2013, 01:44:27 AM
To everyone I have been talking to here

On June 18 I ended up in hospital and am just recovering at home.
I wont try to respond to any posts now as its been such a long time.
However  I did want to say all the very best to you all and I didn’t want you to think I was suddenly dismissing any comments and question, although I did say my previous posts were my last. Thank you all for your time. I now reflect on the new me that’s just come out of hospital and reflect on the meaning of life in a new light. This really is the last post. Perhaps oneday I might talk to you in some other topic that I might comment on. But I need to recover my health first. Cheers.

Thank you for the news.  I hope your faith is renewed.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Anfauglir on July 04, 2013, 04:01:32 AM
On June 18 I ended up in hospital and am just recovering at home.
Thank you for the news.  I hope your faith is renewed.

Sky, in another thread we have been examining how god does essentially organises things the way he wants, regardless of our desires or prayers.  On that basis, would you say that god arranged Kiran's hospital stay?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 04, 2013, 08:43:11 AM
On June 18 I ended up in hospital and am just recovering at home.
Thank you for the news.  I hope your faith is renewed.

Sky, in another thread we have been examining how god does essentially organises things the way he wants, regardless of our desires or prayers.  On that basis, would you say that god arranged Kiran's hospital stay?

All of God's powers and intentions are of a Spiritual nature.  The physical condition we currently exist in is an abomination to His nature, even when out of the hospital sitting on a big soft pillow with a cool drink.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Azdgari on July 04, 2013, 10:34:58 AM
I do love how SkyWriting will pretend to answer a question, while not actually answering the question in any way.  It's a profound lack of honesty.

SkyWriting, Anfauglir's question was a yes or no question.  While elaboration on a yes or no answer is reasonable, to answer the question one does have to include something indicating "yes" or "no".
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 07, 2013, 02:22:53 PM
I do love how SkyWriting will pretend to answer a question, while not actually answering the question in any way.  It's a profound lack of honesty.

SkyWriting, Anfauglir's question was a yes or no question.  While elaboration on a yes or no answer is reasonable, to answer the question one does have to include something indicating "yes" or "no".

It's not that easy to answer a question that has been debated for 1000's of years. 
There is no known yes or no answer.  Lets be honest with yourself.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Azdgari on July 07, 2013, 06:09:51 PM
Then your answer should have been "I don't know", rather than a weaseling-out of having to say "I don't know".  Which is what you actually did.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Anfauglir on July 08, 2013, 05:48:57 AM
SkyWriting, Anfauglir's question was a yes or no question.  While elaboration on a yes or no answer is reasonable, to answer the question one does have to include something indicating "yes" or "no".

It's not that easy to answer a question that has been debated for 1000's of years. 
There is no known yes or no answer.  Lets be honest with yourself.

Will your god divert from the action HE wants to take, to account for our beliefs/desires/prayers?
No.  Never.  Not in a million years.

Seems pretty cut and dried an answer to me.  So, no matter how much Kiran had prayed, he would have ended up in hospital because THAT is what god had decided to do.

Sorry to hear that god wanted you in hospital Kiran.  Sorry also I recommened that you pray - as SkyWriting has made crystal clear, prayer won't actually change a thing.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 08, 2013, 06:53:38 AM
SkyWriting, Anfauglir's question was a yes or no question.  While elaboration on a yes or no answer is reasonable, to answer the question one does have to include something indicating "yes" or "no".

It's not that easy to answer a question that has been debated for 1000's of years. 
There is no known yes or no answer.  Lets be honest with yourself.

Will your god divert from the action HE wants to take, to account for our beliefs/desires/prayers?
No.  Never.  Not in a million years.

Seems pretty cut and dried an answer to me.  So, no matter how much Kiran had prayed, he would have ended up in hospital because THAT is what god had decided to do.

Sorry to hear that god wanted you in hospital Kiran.  Sorry also I recommened that you pray - as SkyWriting has made crystal clear, prayer won't actually change a thing.

That was not may answer. My answer was that God does not divert from what He wants.
What God has in store, is a mystery.  Man cannot change what God has planned.   God's plans will not be diverted.   But what God wants most is a relationship with Him above all else.  If a person prays for help, God will provide a solution, and man has no idea what exactly that solution will be.  The difference being that nobody has to go through trials in disrepair and alone.  Will God make changes to the current direction?   There is much more PEACE in finding out with God at your side than without.    Does he make changes?   In my experience he uses people who do listen to Him to make changes days or weeks ahead of time.  So He even knows what your going to pray for and when.   Then he answers your prayer as you requested or likely much better than your request.  Ahead of time.

If there is anything "cut and dried" about it, then you are not reading what I said.   It took years for me to understand what was going on and it's far from cut and dried in my mind.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: jetson on July 08, 2013, 07:01:41 AM
If a person prays for help, God will provide a solution, and man has no idea what exactly that solution will be.

How in the world could you possibly know this?  How can you possibly tell the difference between this silly idea, and humans capable of finding solutions on their own?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 08, 2013, 07:13:19 AM
If a person prays for help, God will provide a solution, and man has no idea what exactly that solution will be.

How in the world could you possibly know this?  How can you possibly tell the difference between this silly idea, and humans capable of finding solutions on their own?

Because God has answered my prayers better than I requested, the micro-second I gave God complete control.  I was there, so only I know the exact moment I gave up complete control to God.  In that moment, He answered my prayers in ways that I could never have even asked for.  The weather changed, the ground became dry, a field was moved, driveway was created for my car.    All done weeks before by some farmer who did God's bidding that I needed part of his field mowed flat and smooth for no good farming reason.  Well, from my POV there was no "good reason" to mow larger circular "crop circle" into a field with access from the road.  I dunno why the farmer did it.  Likely he had some reason.   But I was the one with a disabled wife who needed to get out of our van at that particular time, during a downpour.  Was the farmer informed?  I dunno.   I had needs, they were immediate and critical, I prayed, God instantly answered.  Not instantly, I had to "Let Go" of my request first.  My "trial" was the process of "letting go" of the request and "letting God" answer in His way.  It is hard work, letting go.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: jdawg70 on July 08, 2013, 02:27:29 PM
Because God has answered my prayers better than I requested, the micro-second I gave God complete control.  I was there, so only I know the exact moment I gave up complete control to God.  In that moment, He answered my prayers in ways that I could never have even asked for.  The weather changed, the ground became dry, a field was moved, driveway was created for my car.    All done weeks before by some farmer who did God's bidding that I needed part of his field mowed flat and smooth for no good farming reason.  Well, from my POV there was no "good reason" to mow larger circular "crop circle" into a field with access from the road.  I dunno why the farmer did it.  Likely he had some reason.   But I was the one with a disabled wife who needed to get out of our van at that particular time, during a downpour.  Was the farmer informed?  I dunno.   I had needs, they were immediate and critical, I prayed, God instantly answered.  Not instantly, I had to "Let Go" of my request first.  My "trial" was the process of "letting go" of the request and "letting God" answer in His way.  It is hard work, letting go.
Kinda sounds like god did something before any of your praying/letting go acts.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 08, 2013, 04:33:24 PM
Because God has answered my prayers better than I requested, the micro-second I gave God complete control.  I was there, so only I know the exact moment I gave up complete control to God.  In that moment, He answered my prayers in ways that I could never have even asked for.  The weather changed, the ground became dry, a field was moved, driveway was created for my car.    All done weeks before by some farmer who did God's bidding that I needed part of his field mowed flat and smooth for no good farming reason.  Well, from my POV there was no "good reason" to mow larger circular "crop circle" into a field with access from the road.  I dunno why the farmer did it.  Likely he had some reason.   But I was the one with a disabled wife who needed to get out of our van at that particular time, during a downpour.  Was the farmer informed?  I dunno.   I had needs, they were immediate and critical, I prayed, God instantly answered.  Not instantly, I had to "Let Go" of my request first.  My "trial" was the process of "letting go" of the request and "letting God" answer in His way.  It is hard work, letting go.
Kinda sounds like god did something before any of your praying/letting go acts.

Yes.  Like a day or week earlier.   Thanks for reading.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: jdawg70 on July 08, 2013, 05:12:20 PM
Because God has answered my prayers better than I requested, the micro-second I gave God complete control.  I was there, so only I know the exact moment I gave up complete control to God.  In that moment, He answered my prayers in ways that I could never have even asked for.  The weather changed, the ground became dry, a field was moved, driveway was created for my car.    All done weeks before by some farmer who did God's bidding that I needed part of his field mowed flat and smooth for no good farming reason.  Well, from my POV there was no "good reason" to mow larger circular "crop circle" into a field with access from the road.  I dunno why the farmer did it.  Likely he had some reason.   But I was the one with a disabled wife who needed to get out of our van at that particular time, during a downpour.  Was the farmer informed?  I dunno.   I had needs, they were immediate and critical, I prayed, God instantly answered.  Not instantly, I had to "Let Go" of my request first.  My "trial" was the process of "letting go" of the request and "letting God" answer in His way.  It is hard work, letting go.
Kinda sounds like god did something before any of your praying/letting go acts.

Yes.  Like a day or week earlier.   Thanks for reading.
Did you read what you typed?  You said weeks before...now you're going 'like a day or week earlier'.  Maybe the "weeks before" was hyperbole or something, but it's getting hard to tell.

And that being a contradiction of your claim of "the micro-second I gave God complete control"...just dismissed or something?  Irrelevant?  Actually not a contradiction?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Anfauglir on July 09, 2013, 01:55:59 AM
SkyWriting, Anfauglir's question was a yes or no question.  While elaboration on a yes or no answer is reasonable, to answer the question one does have to include something indicating "yes" or "no".

It's not that easy to answer a question that has been debated for 1000's of years. 
There is no known yes or no answer.  Lets be honest with yourself.

Will your god divert from the action HE wants to take, to account for our beliefs/desires/prayers?
No.  Never.  Not in a million years.

Seems pretty cut and dried an answer to me.  So, no matter how much Kiran had prayed, he would have ended up in hospital because THAT is what god had decided to do.

Sorry to hear that god wanted you in hospital Kiran.  Sorry also I recommened that you pray - as SkyWriting has made crystal clear, prayer won't actually change a thing.

That was not may answer. My answer was that God does not divert from what He wants.
What God has in store, is a mystery.  Man cannot change what God has planned.   God's plans will not be diverted.

Right.  See all those bolds?  YOUR words.  So if god's plan was for Kiran to go to hospital, then Kiran was going to end up in hospital, no matter what he wanted, or how much he prayed.

Read your quote again, Sky:
Will your god divert from the action HE wants to take, to account for our beliefs/desires/prayers?
No.  Never.  Not in a million years.

That was a clear answer you gave there.  So are you NOW saying that - if god wanted Kiran in hospital, and Kiran had prayed "don't put me in hospital", god would have changed his mind, and NOT sent Kiran to hospital?

I say No.  Never.  Not in a million years.

But perhaps YOU now want to say that if Kiran had prayed "don't send me to hospital", god would've changed his plans as a response to the prayer?

Make your mind up Sky, I'm getting pretty tired of you changing your tune every time it suits you.

But maybe you can do it - I'm all ears.  Please reconcile these two exchanges:

Will your god divert from the action HE wants to take, to account for our beliefs/desires/prayers?
No.  Never.  Not in a million years.

So, no matter how much Kiran had prayed, he would have ended up in hospital because THAT is what god had decided to do.
That was not my answer.

DOES GOD CHANGE WHAT HE WILL DO IN RESPONSE TO PRAYER?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 09, 2013, 08:24:58 AM
DOES GOD CHANGE WHAT HE WILL DO IN RESPONSE TO PRAYER?

Thanks. I understand your anguish a bit better now. 

We live subjected to time.
God is not subjected to time.
God resides in a place the past, present, and future are all the same.
So I can't answer a question with "change" or "will do" or "response" in it
unless it's about a human point of view.  With God, "Will do"  is exactly the same as ancient history. There is no "God will do".  He already did it from the beginning of time.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 09, 2013, 08:43:22 AM

Did you read what you typed?  You said weeks before...now you're going 'like a day or week earlier'.  Maybe the "weeks before" was hyperbole or something, but it's getting hard to tell.

And that being a contradiction of your claim of "the micro-second I gave God complete control"...just dismissed or something?  Irrelevant?  Actually not a contradiction?

Yes, it is quite confusing.   
Our Father in Heaven set up this following chain of events in my "Time-line"

Week 1. He had a Farmer mow a "crop circle" in his field.
Week 2. He arranged for me to have desperate need.
- He had me pray for help.
- He told me "That's enough prayer, now shut up and let me answer".
- I listened and dropped all my requests and just agreed to Let God handle it all.
- At that instant, the rain stopped, the place to pull off the road was visible, I got my wife and her wheelchair out of the van, the crop circle was dry and the sun came out and her misery was taken care of.

In retrospect there was only one miracle that day.  It was God's timing to let me know that He was there.  Nothing else was really unusual and it could have all happened anyway.  Except for the timing.

This same order of events has taken place several times with the same kind of results, every time.


Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Anfauglir on July 09, 2013, 09:34:36 AM
DOES GOD CHANGE WHAT HE WILL DO IN RESPONSE TO PRAYER?

Thanks. I understand your anguish a bit better now. 

Gosh, another non-answer.  I have no "anguish", because I have zero belief in your god.

What I AM trying to do is get a straightforward answer from you.  I'll repeat the question.

Please reconcile these two exchanges:

Will your god divert from the action HE wants to take, to account for our beliefs/desires/prayers?
No.  Never.  Not in a million years.

So, no matter how much Kiran had prayed, he would have ended up in hospital because THAT is what god had decided to do.
That was not my answer.

Disingenuous of you to say "I can't answer a question with "change" or "will do" or "response" in it"  What was that "never, no, not in a million years" then?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Anfauglir on July 09, 2013, 09:38:48 AM
.....I can't answer a question with "change" or "will do" or "response" in it....

Fair enough.  So then you can NOT say what your god will do in response to anything I may do, or not do.  If the above is the line you are choosing to run with, then you cannot guarantee anything your god might do, and hence you give us NO reason at all to try to engage with it.

Cue Skywriting now changing his position yet again to try to cover two conflicting assertions.  I fully expect him to follow up shortly with "but I CAN tell you what god will do if you pray to him", completely negating what he said here.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: jdawg70 on July 09, 2013, 09:58:24 AM

Did you read what you typed?  You said weeks before...now you're going 'like a day or week earlier'.  Maybe the "weeks before" was hyperbole or something, but it's getting hard to tell.

And that being a contradiction of your claim of "the micro-second I gave God complete control"...just dismissed or something?  Irrelevant?  Actually not a contradiction?

Yes, it is quite confusing.   
Our Father in Heaven set up this following chain of events in my "Time-line"

Week 1. He had a Farmer mow a "crop circle" in his field.
Week 2. He arranged for me to have desperate need.
- He had me pray for help.
- He told me "That's enough prayer, now shut up and let me answer".
- I listened and dropped all my requests and just agreed to Let God handle it all.
- At that instant, the rain stopped, the place to pull off the road was visible, I got my wife and her wheelchair out of the van, the crop circle was dry and the sun came out and her misery was taken care of.

In retrospect there was only one miracle that day.  It was God's timing to let me know that He was there.  Nothing else was really unusual and it could have all happened anyway.  Except for the timing.

This same order of events has taken place several times with the same kind of results, every time.
You haven't really cleared up the confusion unfortunately.  It sounds like god did stuff irrespective of your prayer to manifest the expected result, primarily because he did stuff before you thought about praying about it.

However, I'm now more interested in the nature of:
Quote
Week 2. He arranged for me to have desperate need.
- He had me pray for help.
- He told me "That's enough prayer, now shut up and let me answer".
Let me see if I have this correctly - god arranged for you to have a desperate need of some kind (caused you or someone you loved to suffer), then told you to pray to him for help, then told you to stop with the prayer and then eliminated the desperate need.

How is this entity not a mob boss or otherwise shady, evil character?  It sounds like god planned to f**k with you, set up some parameters (i.e. crop circle farmer dude) to save you from the thing he did to you to f**k with you, then told you to implore his help in making the thing that he did to f**k with you go away.

Apparently, this god character of yours is either a sick, evil bastard, a massive idiot, or both.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: jaimehlers on July 09, 2013, 11:25:17 AM
Because God has answered my prayers better than I requested, the micro-second I gave God complete control.  I was there, so only I know the exact moment I gave up complete control to God.  In that moment, He answered my prayers in ways that I could never have even asked for.  The weather changed, the ground became dry, a field was moved, driveway was created for my car.    All done weeks before by some farmer who did God's bidding that I needed part of his field mowed flat and smooth for no good farming reason.  Well, from my POV there was no "good reason" to mow larger circular "crop circle" into a field with access from the road.  I dunno why the farmer did it.  Likely he had some reason.   But I was the one with a disabled wife who needed to get out of our van at that particular time, during a downpour.  Was the farmer informed?  I dunno.   I had needs, they were immediate and critical, I prayed, God instantly answered.  Not instantly, I had to "Let Go" of my request first.  My "trial" was the process of "letting go" of the request and "letting God" answer in His way.  It is hard work, letting go.
You know what that sounds like?  Something that would have happened whether or not you "let go".  None of those things you mentioned were done when you prayed - they happened days or weeks before, and likely had nothing to do with you at all.  You would have come across this whether or not you prayed to God, and the only reason you think otherwise is because you happened to pray right before you came across this.  In other words, you've fallen prey to the "correlation = causation" fallacy because of your emotional response to finding this just when you needed it.

Personally, I'm glad things worked out for you here.  But you're doing yourself no favors by claiming that God answered your prayer by doing this stuff - weeks before you made the prayer.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: nogodsforme on July 09, 2013, 03:30:35 PM
SW, let's assume that you are right and god arranged all that stuff in the farmer's field to help you out. It was not a life and death situation, just a big hassle to get your wife where you wanted to go. Was the hassle caused by Satan of the creator god?

1) If the hassle was caused by Satan, then god can counteract the actions of Satan. Why then does god not just heal your wife so you don't have such hassles?

2) If the hassle was caused by god, then he can change his mind and fix things that he made go wrong. Why then does god not just heal your wife so you don't have such hassles?

3) Either way, god can change reality around to make things better. For some people, under certain conditions. For other people, he will never make things better, because they have not figured out exactly what god wants. No matter what they do, they will suffer and die horribly. How did you get so lucky as to figure out exactly what god wants?

4) Since you have it figured out, could you please convince god to end world starvation and warfare? And cure children with cancer, diabetes and Down's syndrome? And end all animal cruelty and extinctions? 

I'll be watching the news for the big announcements. 8)
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: skepticlogician on July 09, 2013, 10:38:05 PM
Yes, it is quite confusing.   
Our Father in Heaven set up this following chain of events in my "Time-line"

Very confusing, indeed. Why would god have you pray if all the events were in place to happen as planned regardless of whether you prayed or not?

Week 1. He had a Farmer mow a "crop circle" in his field.
Week 2. He arranged for me to have desperate need.
- He had me pray for help.

Again, Why would god have you pray if all the events were in place to happen as planned regardless of whether you prayed or not? Is god so bored that he has to come up with these ridiculous concoctions?

1. God finds some random situation (this supposed 'crop circle').
2. Then he goes "hmm... what type of problematic situation can I invent so that this crop circle eventually becomes the solution? Hmm...".
3. "Ah! I got it... Everything is in place now... but what the heck, I will still make him pray to me, although it will absolutely be inconsequential."

- He told me "That's enough prayer, now shut up and let me answer".
- I listened and dropped all my requests and just agreed to Let God handle it all.
- At that instant, the rain stopped, the place to pull off the road was visible, I got my wife and her wheelchair out of the van, the crop circle was dry and the sun came out and her misery was taken care of.


4. Now god goes "ugh, enough of this praying thing! Shut up!". By the way, SkyWriting, how did this happen exactly? Did you hear a loud voice from god telling you to shut up and stop praying? Or did you hear voices in your mind?
5. Then god just lets things happen as they were going to happen anyway (probably laughing and enjoying the fact that he's played his tricks again).
6. Yet, SkyWriting is totally amazed of this 'undeniable miracle'... absolutely in awe (even though he can even describe step by step how god tricked him). :)

In retrospect there was only one miracle that day.  It was God's timing to let me know that He was there.  Nothing else was really unusual and it could have all happened anyway.  Except for the timing.

... so there was a miracle that day... even though nothing was really 'unusual and it could have all happened anyway'??
Timing?? Are you aware of the fact that your description of this even sounds practically the same as the definition of coincidence? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coincidence

This same order of events has taken place several times with the same kind of results, every time.

... except when it doesn't, correct? Like I said, this is the perfect description of a coincidence. :)
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 10, 2013, 08:40:25 AM
Yes, it is quite confusing.   
Our Father in Heaven set up this following chain of events in my "Time-line"

Very confusing, indeed. Why would god have you pray if all the events were in place to happen as planned regardless of whether you prayed or not?

Again.  God's highest priority is a relationship, conversation, fellowship with His children.
I don't know if you have children, or have been around parents, but the human experience is much the same.  You don't give your kids all the candy they ask for, the rides they want to go on, or all your money.  You decide what is best for their long term. 

"Material stuff" or doing what they want is NOT a top priority.  Your relationship / time is the top priority. God did those things as part of our conversation.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 10, 2013, 08:47:29 AM
SW, let's assume that you are right and god arranged all that stuff in the farmer's field to help you out. It was not a life and death situation, just a big hassle to get your wife where you wanted to go. Was the hassle caused by Satan of the creator god?

1) If the hassle was caused by Satan, then god can counteract the actions of Satan. Why then does god not just heal your wife so you don't have such hassles?

2) If the hassle was caused by god, then he can change his mind and fix things that he made go wrong. Why then does god not just heal your wife so you don't have such hassles?

3) Either way, god can change reality around to make things better. For some people, under certain conditions. For other people, he will never make things better, because they have not figured out exactly what god wants. No matter what they do, they will suffer and die horribly. How did you get so lucky as to figure out exactly what god wants?

4) Since you have it figured out, could you please convince god to end world starvation and warfare? And cure children with cancer, diabetes and Down's syndrome? And end all animal cruelty and extinctions? 

I'll be watching the news for the big announcements. 8)

So why have you focused on those things instead of the volunteer work you could be doing at your local hospital?  Or on your block? Even keyboard work for somebody without fingers.  Do you still own a TV?  And why?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 10, 2013, 08:52:22 AM
Because God has answered my prayers better than I requested, the micro-second I gave God complete control.  I was there, so only I know the exact moment I gave up complete control to God.  In that moment, He answered my prayers in ways that I could never have even asked for.  The weather changed, the ground became dry, a field was moved, driveway was created for my car.    All done weeks before by some farmer who did God's bidding that I needed part of his field mowed flat and smooth for no good farming reason.  Well, from my POV there was no "good reason" to mow larger circular "crop circle" into a field with access from the road.  I dunno why the farmer did it.  Likely he had some reason.   But I was the one with a disabled wife who needed to get out of our van at that particular time, during a downpour.  Was the farmer informed?  I dunno.   I had needs, they were immediate and critical, I prayed, God instantly answered.  Not instantly, I had to "Let Go" of my request first.  My "trial" was the process of "letting go" of the request and "letting God" answer in His way.  It is hard work, letting go.
You know what that sounds like?  Something that would have happened whether or not you "let go".

Yes.  The only miracle was the conversation and the timing of it.
All 5 times it has happened. 
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 10, 2013, 08:57:14 AM
How is this entity not a mob boss or otherwise shady, evil character?  It sounds like god planned to f**k with you, set up some parameters (i.e. crop circle farmer dude) to save you from the thing he did to you to f**k with you, then told you to implore his help in making the thing that he did to f**k with you go away.

Apparently, this god character of yours is either a sick, evil bastard, a massive idiot, or both.

I didn't intend to disturb you so much with my analysis of what happened. 
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 10, 2013, 09:01:48 AM
.....I can't answer a question with "change" or "will do" or "response" in it....

Fair enough.  So then you can NOT say what your god will do in response to anything I may do, or not do.  If the above is the line you are choosing to run with, then you cannot guarantee anything your god might do, and hence you give us NO reason at all to try to engage with it.


God is interested in conversing with you.  The only changes or miracles will be how your view of life changes, nothing else. 
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Anfauglir on July 10, 2013, 09:06:05 AM
Yes, it is quite confusing.   
Our Father in Heaven set up this following chain of events in my "Time-line"

Very confusing, indeed. Why would god have you pray if all the events were in place to happen as planned regardless of whether you prayed or not?

Again.  God's highest priority is a relationship, conversation, fellowship with His children.
I don't know if you have children, or have been around parents, but the human experience is much the same.  You don't give your kids all the candy they ask for, the rides they want to go on, or all your money.  You decide what is best for their long term. 

"Material stuff" or doing what they want is NOT a top priority.  Your relationship / time is the top priority. God did those things as part of our conversation.

Fine.

Then you need to address why it is that - for the many people here who have tried extremely hard to have this conversation/relationship with your god, that he has not responded.

And I don't know if YOU'VE ever been a parent - but when your children ask you for something that you do not want to give them, you explain to them clearly and distinctly why it is that you are doing (or not doing) what they asked for.

Nor do you engineer situations of "desperate need" for them.  I fear for any children you may have, as I worry that you will deliberately put them in harm's way only so that you can jump in and save them.  That's not being a parent: that's being a dangerous and emotionally needy jerk-off.  "Superhero Syndrome", I believe its called, where people have so great a need to be valued and loved that they engineer disasters so that they can rescue people from the situations they themselves create.  From what you've been saying here, that is exactly what your god does.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 10, 2013, 09:09:08 AM
Will your god divert from the action HE wants to take, to account for our beliefs/desires/prayers?
No.  Never.  Not in a million years.

What was that "never, no, not in a million years" then?

God cannot "Change" because He is not linear.  "never, no, not in a million years"
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: jdawg70 on July 10, 2013, 09:32:45 AM
How is this entity not a mob boss or otherwise shady, evil character?  It sounds like god planned to f**k with you, set up some parameters (i.e. crop circle farmer dude) to save you from the thing he did to you to f**k with you, then told you to implore his help in making the thing that he did to f**k with you go away.

Apparently, this god character of yours is either a sick, evil bastard, a massive idiot, or both.

I didn't intend to disturb you so much with my analysis of what happened.
I'm sure you had no intention of disturbing me, but frankly it is disturbing.  The real question is - why doesn't it disturb you?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: skepticlogician on July 10, 2013, 10:30:02 AM
Again.  God's highest priority is a relationship, conversation, fellowship with His children.

Conversation? Conversation is not the same as a monologue (which is what prayer is). Conversation is interactive, one party says something and the other party replies.

Even more, is that the best god can come up with for a conversation (having you beg for all the things you need and then shut you up because he is going to ignore all you asked for anyway)? ... pathetic.

I don't know if you have children, or have been around parents, but the human experience is much the same.  You don't give your kids all the candy they ask for, the rides they want to go on, or all your money.  You decide what is best for their long term. 

Ooo... Don't go there pretending to know what the deal is with having children, unless YOU yourself have children of your own. I do have 3 children, and I have meaningful conversations with them. When they ask me for something that I don't think will be good for them, I explain to them why I'm not giving them what they asked for. Conversely, if there's something I know they NEED, I do NOT make them ask for it so that I can then give it to them. Forcing them to ask in that type of situations would not only be a waste of time, it's also cruel, especially if what they are asking for is, for example, help to take them away from a dangerous situation. What kind of sadistic parent do you have to be to make them go through that kind of unnecessary suffering?

"Material stuff" or doing what they want is NOT a top priority.  Your relationship / time is the top priority. God did those things as part of our conversation.

As I said before, 'conversation' is probably one of the worst analogies for prayer.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: nogodsforme on July 10, 2013, 03:45:33 PM
SW, let's assume that you are right and god arranged all that stuff in the farmer's field to help you out. It was not a life and death situation, just a big hassle to get your wife where you wanted to go. Was the hassle caused by Satan of the creator god?

1) If the hassle was caused by Satan, then god can counteract the actions of Satan. Why then does god not just heal your wife so you don't have such hassles?

2) If the hassle was caused by god, then he can change his mind and fix things that he made go wrong. Why then does god not just heal your wife so you don't have such hassles?

3) Either way, god can change reality around to make things better. For some people, under certain conditions. For other people, he will never make things better, because they have not figured out exactly what god wants. No matter what they do, they will suffer and die horribly. How did you get so lucky as to figure out exactly what god wants?

4) Since you have it figured out, could you please convince god to end world starvation and warfare? And cure children with cancer, diabetes and Down's syndrome? And end all animal cruelty and extinctions? 

I'll be watching the news for the big announcements. 8)

So why have you focused on those things instead of the volunteer work you could be doing at your local hospital?  Or on your block? Even keyboard work for somebody without fingers.  Do you still own a TV?  And why?

Change the subject and miss the main issue much? You have no idea what I do or don't do to help my community, and that is not the point here. &)

You have told us that you are able to have miraculous things happen in your life as a result of your relationship with the creator god. You say that these things happen when you pray for help and let god take over. You say that they are not coincidences and could not happen naturally without intervention from god.

I do not claim any such thing. I live in the real world. My ability to help people is therefore limited-- I have no supernatural godly friends to pull strings, change the world, pre-rearrange farmer's fields, or solve my problems for me.

So, if you indeed have such a relationship with a supernatural being, why not get something done that would help millions of people as opposed to just your family and friends? Why not sincerely pray to god to end all child abuse or cure all senile dementia? Is it because god likes people to suffer, and therefore will not do this? Is it because god is not really very powerful, and cannot do this?

Or do you realize that the helpful things that have happened to you are not miracles at all, and really are statistical coincidences that could happen to anyone, prayer or not? Do you keep track of the hundreds of times you pray and don't get help, or only the handful of times when you pray and things work out for you?

Prediction/prophesy: SW will not respond clearly and directly. He will either give a very short non-answer, or give a very long and convoluted incomprehensible non-answer. If I am correct, bow down and worship your new holy messenger, high priestess nogodsforme. :D
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: jdawg70 on July 10, 2013, 03:54:51 PM
Prediction/prophesy: SW will not respond clearly and directly. He will either give a very short non-answer, or give a very long and convoluted incomprehensible non-answer. If I am correct, bow down and worship your new holy messenger, high priestess nogodsforme. :D
I think you're wrong.

I'm beginning to suspect that SkyWriting is answering everyone's questions, AND with perfect wisdom.  It is merely a question of deciphering it - like, Bible Code style or somesuch.  But the answers...the answers are there.  We must start compiling his responses into some sort of book.  I got dibs on the 'Revelation' section.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: nogodsforme on July 10, 2013, 09:32:06 PM
Prediction/prophesy: SW will not respond clearly and directly. He will either give a very short non-answer, or give a very long and convoluted incomprehensible non-answer. If I am correct, bow down and worship your new holy messenger, high priestess nogodsforme. :D
I think you're wrong.

I'm beginning to suspect that SkyWriting is answering everyone's questions, AND with perfect wisdom.  It is merely a question of deciphering it - like, Bible Code style or somesuch.  But the answers...the answers are there.  We must start compiling his responses into some sort of book.  I got dibs on the 'Revelation' section.

That was always my favorite book when I had to "read the bible daily" as a JW kid. Funny how rarely people selected from Revelations for bible study discussion, the daily text or talks at the Kingdom Hall.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Anfauglir on July 11, 2013, 02:54:28 AM
Will your god divert from the action HE wants to take, to account for our beliefs/desires/prayers?
No.  Never.  Not in a million years.

What was that "never, no, not in a million years" then?

God cannot "Change" because He is not linear.  "never, no, not in a million years"

Right.

So then, if your god had decided that the best thing for Kiran was for hm to be hospitalised, then THAT was what was going to happen.  Never mind what Kiran thought, never mind how much he or anyone else prayed, your god wanted him in hospital, so that was what was inevitably going to happen.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Graybeard on July 11, 2013, 05:31:55 AM
DOES GOD CHANGE WHAT HE WILL DO IN RESPONSE TO PRAYER?

Thanks. I understand your anguish a bit better now. 

We live subjected to time.
God is not subjected to time.
the past, present, and future are all the same.
So I can't answer a question with "change" or "will do" or "response" in it
unless it's about a human point of view.
  With God, "Will do"  is exactly the same as ancient history. There is no "God will do".  He already did it from the beginning of time.


Did you read what you typed?  You said weeks before...now you're going 'like a day or week earlier'.  Maybe the "weeks before" was hyperbole or something, but it's getting hard to tell.

And that being a contradiction of your claim of "the micro-second I gave God complete control"...just dismissed or something?  Irrelevant?  Actually not a contradiction?

Yes, it is quite confusing.   
Our Father in Heaven set up this following chain of events in my "Time-line"

Week 1. He had a Farmer mow a "crop circle" in his field.
Week 2. He arranged for me to have desperate need.
- He had me pray for help.
- He told me "That's enough prayer, now shut up and let me answer".
- I listened and dropped all my requests and just agreed to Let God handle it all.
- At that instant, the rain stopped, the place to pull off the road was visible, I got my wife and her wheelchair out of the van, the crop circle was dry and the sun came out and her misery was taken care of.

In retrospect there was only one miracle that day.  It was God's timing to let me know that He was there.  Nothing else was really unusual and it could have all happened anyway.  Except for the timing.

This same order of events has taken place several times with the same kind of results, every time.

So, he didn’t cause the farmer to mow the field?

I’m sure you have never bothered to work out the logic of what you said. To me it sounds the same as a schizophrenic talking[1]. You make statements as if “everyone knew and understood how these things work.” – this is exactly how schizophrenics think -> It may be “clear” to you but to any sane person reading it, it is lunacy.

Quote
God resides in a place the past, present, and future are all the same.
Quote
It was God's timing to let me know that He was there.

How can a god have timing if “the past, present, and future are all the same.”?

It is not “confusing” it is mental illness.

Quote
Week 2. He arranged for me to have desperate need.
- He had me pray for help.
So your entire life is determined and you have no free will? But nevertheless, he will punish and reward you for things that He has decided you will do?

Quote
So I can't answer a question with "change" or "will do" or "response" in it

No, you can’t, can you? Does this not indicate that your conclusions must be wrong and illogical?

Please continue with your responses to Anfauglir’s post – I have rarely had such a fine view of a religious mind.
 1.  Along with other perceptual abnormalities, it has been noted by psychologists that schizophrenia patients have an altered sense of time. This was first described in psychology by Minkowski in 1927.[31] Many schizophrenic patients stop perceiving time as a flow of causally linked events. It has been suggested that there is a delay in time perception in schizophrenic patients compared to normal subjects.
These defects in time perception may play a part in the hallucinations and delusions experienced by schizophrenic patients according to some studies. Some researchers suggest that "abnormal timing judgment leads to a deficit in action attribution and action perception."[31] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_perception
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: jaimehlers on July 11, 2013, 01:06:17 PM
I'm seriously starting to think that SkyWriting never really thought about most of this stuff before people here started pressing him on it.  The way he responds strikes me as the kind of improvisation you get from a person who never spent a lot of time figuring out their arguments (and more importantly, getting someone to try to poke holes in them) and who has to suddenly start trying to do so on the fly.  That explains why his arguments are often contradictory, and why he has to keep correcting himself.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 11, 2013, 03:27:31 PM
I'm seriously starting to think that SkyWriting never really thought about most of this stuff before people here started pressing him on it.  The way he responds strikes me as the kind of improvisation you get from a person who never spent a lot of time figuring out their arguments (and more importantly, getting someone to try to poke holes in them) and who has to suddenly start trying to do so on the fly.  That explains why his arguments are often contradictory, and why he has to keep correcting himself.

That's close.  I've never gone into such detail for anyone before this.
Christians have a fear of "faith healing" so they shy away from anything
like answered prayer. 
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 11, 2013, 03:32:17 PM
No, you can’t, can you? Does this not indicate that your conclusions must be wrong and illogical?

God does not experience the passage of time but humans do. 
So the interface of the two will not be logical land "in order"
as humans would prefer.   Thanks, good analysis.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: nogodsforme on July 11, 2013, 04:40:31 PM
No, you can’t, can you? Does this not indicate that your conclusions must be wrong and illogical?

God does not experience the passage of time but humans do. 
So the interface of the two will not be logical land "in order"
as humans would prefer.   Thanks, good analysis.
So, god could communicate or "interface" in a logical manner with humans, but chooses not to. It sounds more and more like we are ants and god is a giant 7-year-old boy with a magnifying glass. Run!

And what is the point of praying, again? You are implying that god already knows everything that is going to happen, because for god, it has already happened.  We are pawns, with the illusion that we can change our futures by our present actions. But it has already been set in stone, long before we were born. Sounds kinda Hindu.

God knew, even before my friend was born, that she would be run over by a bus and lose both her legs at the age of 45. He knew she would lose her job, her husband would leave her, she would have to go on welfare and move in with her elderly mother.  He knew that most of their combined incomes would be spent on caring for her.  God knew that she would have constant pain and be in and out of the hospital for nasty infections. She and her mother will be dealing with her medical bills for the rest of their days.

If only she had prayed to god to give her the flu that day, and not gone to work, so he could have retroactively not had the bus run her over. Or something. Damn, this god guy sounds like a dick.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 11, 2013, 05:49:12 PM
No, you can’t, can you? Does this not indicate that your conclusions must be wrong and illogical?

God does not experience the passage of time but humans do. 
So the interface of the two will not be logical land "in order"
as humans would prefer.   Thanks, good analysis.
So, god could communicate or "interface" in a logical manner with humans, but chooses not to. It sounds more and more like we are ants and god is a giant 7-year-old boy with a magnifying glass. Run!

And what is the point of praying, again? You are implying that god already knows everything that is going to happen, because for god, it has already happened.  We are pawns, with the illusion that we can change our futures by our present actions. But it has already been set in stone, long before we were born. Sounds kinda Hindu.

God knew, even before my friend was born, that she would be run over by a bus and lose both her legs at the age of 45. He knew she would lose her job, her husband would leave her, she would have to go on welfare and move in with her elderly mother.  He knew that most of their combined incomes would be spent on caring for her.  God knew that she would have constant pain and be in and out of the hospital for nasty infections. She and her mother will be dealing with her medical bills for the rest of their days.

If only she had prayed to god to give her the flu that day, and not gone to work, so he could have retroactively not had the bus run her over. Or something. Damn, this god guy sounds like a dick.

You are concerned about other people.  The whole situation might be
just to get your attention.  You're that important and worth the effort.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: jdawg70 on July 11, 2013, 06:25:53 PM
You are concerned about other people.  The whole situation might be
just to get your attention.  You're that important and worth the effort.
I know the first thing I do when I want someone's attention is to hurt their loved ones.

Though sometimes I'll send a text message.  I get lazy sometimes.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: nogodsforme on July 11, 2013, 06:43:59 PM
I almost threw up-- the idea that I should love anyone who would severely disable my friend, and ruin her life in nearly every way.....just to "get my attention". If there was a god and he really did that kind of sh!t, Satan would be the least of his worries. I would be really pious and pretend to believe, just to get into heaven, and then kick his holy a$$ six ways from Sunday. &)

Get my attention? Hell yeah! Worship him? I don't think so. >:(

Is god the ultimate stalker ex-boyfriend now, setting fire to my home and shooting my dog, "to get my attention"? God as Son of Sam.... :P
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on July 12, 2013, 03:51:22 AM

"Material stuff" or doing what they want is NOT a top priority.  Your relationship / time is the top priority. God did those things as part of our conversation.

Why do you keep claiming to know what God did or didn't do? Please demonstrate how you 'know' these things - b/c as it seems right now, you're just pulling crap out of your ass.



It's interesting how you can use the word "God" for just about anything, isn't it? You can just make up random shit and claim "God" did it. How is this any different from superstition?

ANSWER: It's no different. They are the same.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on July 12, 2013, 03:52:38 AM

Yes.  The only miracle was the conversation and the timing of it.
All 5 times it has happened.

Then, how exactly do you distinguish between a "miracle" and a rare event?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 12, 2013, 04:08:23 AM

Yes.  The only miracle was the conversation and the timing of it.
All 5 times it has happened.

Then, how exactly do you distinguish between a "miracle" and a rare event?

Me having an active dialog with God is a rare event.  Miracles are the result of that conversation and the conversation itself.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 12, 2013, 04:11:20 AM

"Material stuff" or doing what they want is NOT a top priority.  Your relationship / time is the top priority. God did those things as part of our conversation.

Why do you keep claiming to know what God did or didn't do? Please demonstrate how you 'know' these things - b/c as it seems right now, you're just pulling crap out of your ass.

It's interesting how you can use the word "God" for just about anything, isn't it? You can just make up random shit and claim "God" did it. How is this any different from superstition?

ANSWER: It's no different. They are the same.

I don't want to interrupt your conversation and be a third wheel. 
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 12, 2013, 04:13:10 AM
You are concerned about other people.  The whole situation might be
just to get your attention.  You're that important and worth the effort.
I know the first thing I do when I want someone's attention is to hurt their loved ones.

Though sometimes I'll send a text message.  I get lazy sometimes.

Sometimes a direct assault works best.  As your post illustrates.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: natlegend on July 12, 2013, 05:15:00 AM
You are concerned about other people.  The whole situation might be
just to get your attention.  You're that important and worth the effort.

Are you batshit insane??  You truly believe that an all powerful entity has to destroy someone's life in order to gain the attention of someone else?? That's just sick.

God: "Hmm, Nat doesn't seem to believe in me. Let's fix this up now..."
<kills my whole family is some horrific way>

Me: "Oh wow man, that really sucks, my entire family just died horribly. Guess this means god is real then, I better start praying to it."
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: jdawg70 on July 12, 2013, 08:07:06 AM
I know the first thing I do when I want someone's attention is to hurt their loved ones.

Though sometimes I'll send a text message.  I get lazy sometimes.

Sometimes a direct assault works best.  As your post illustrates.
I'm seriously confused as to what manner of assault my post illustrates.  The sarcastically-pointing-out-the-ramifications-of-your-claims hadouken?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Anfauglir on July 12, 2013, 08:09:51 AM
.....she would be run over by a bus and lose both her legs at the age of 45. He knew she would lose her job, her husband would leave her, she would have to go on welfare and move in with her elderly mother.  He knew that most of their combined incomes would be spent on caring for her.  God knew that she would have constant pain and be in and out of the hospital for nasty infections. She and her mother will be dealing with her medical bills for the rest of their days.

You are concerned about other people.  The whole situation might be just to get your attention.  You're that important and worth the effort.

Frankly, I'm as sickened as nogods was at this.  So you actually think about what you are typing?  You are suggesting that god caused a woman to be run over and lose her legs.  To be in constant pain.  Just to send someone else a message?

It absolutely sickens me.  Frankly, anyone who cripples someone and subjects them to constant pain just to "get my attention" can get stuffed.

Are you familiar with the popular depiction of the mafia?  With protection rackets?  With the way that gangsters would burn down the odd business, inflict the odd beating, in order that other people would "get the message"?  Can you explain how your god crippling someone to give nogods a message should not be considered just as despicable?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: jdawg70 on July 12, 2013, 08:20:46 AM
Frankly, I'm as sickened as nogods was at this.  So you actually think about what you are typing?  You are suggesting that god caused a woman to be run over and lose her legs.  To be in constant pain.  Just to send someone else a message?

It absolutely sickens me.  Frankly, anyone who cripples someone and subjects them to constant pain just to "get my attention" can get stuffed.

Are you familiar with the popular depiction of the mafia?  With protection rackets?  With the way that gangsters would burn down the odd business, inflict the odd beating, in order that other people would "get the message"?  Can you explain how your god crippling someone to give nogods a message should not be considered just as despicable?
There is a demented Phelp-esque consistency present though - isn't SkyWriting the one who basically dismissed the suffering aspect of drowning children or somesuch?

However, one thing I'm unclear on is if SkyWriting subscribes to the whole 'god is love' thing.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Anfauglir on July 12, 2013, 08:31:40 AM
You are concerned about other people.  The whole situation might be
just to get your attention.  You're that important and worth the effort.
I know the first thing I do when I want someone's attention is to hurt their loved ones.

Sometimes a direct assault works best.  As your post illustrates.

Serious question, SkyWriting.  Do you think that your god might sometimes do things in order to drive people further from him?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on July 12, 2013, 10:02:15 AM

Yes.  The only miracle was the conversation and the timing of it.
All 5 times it has happened.

Then, how exactly do you distinguish between a "miracle" and a rare event?

Me having an active dialog with God is a rare event.  Miracles are the result of that conversation and the conversation itself.

So you are admitting then that you are unable to distinguish between what you call "miracles" and rare occurrences in the world?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on July 12, 2013, 10:06:39 AM

Serious question, SkyWriting.  Do you think that your god might sometimes do things in order to drive people further from him?

The bible actually states that Yahweh does this. He sends them a "strong delusion that they may believe a lie".

2 Thessalonians 2:11 - And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Astreja on July 12, 2013, 10:20:43 AM
I can explain SW's "egregiously harm living beings to bring them into the fold" theobarbarity in two words:

Stockholm Syndrome.

Think about it:  Weird and nasty things are happening to you and your loved ones, and you feel trapped in a world that's out of control.  Your religious beliefs tell you that your god should be helping, but it isn't happening.  To avoid a total crash of faith (which in a crisis may be the sole positive in a sea of negatives), what can one do but proceed on the assumption that there's a reason for the pain and that your god is making you go through all this out of love?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: jaimehlers on July 12, 2013, 10:38:09 AM
That makes a lot of sense, Astreja.  It isn't quite Stockholm Syndrome, but it's close enough to it.  Especially when you consider that when good things happen, it's incredibly easy for religious people to give credit to God - and makes them more willing to suffer the bad stuff.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: nogodsforme on July 12, 2013, 12:46:13 PM
At least it is consistent to ascribe all events, good and bad, to god. That is what Muslims do. And they accept that god is a dictator who can do whatever he wants to you. You are not supposed to understand god. You are supposed to submit to god. That is what the term "muslim" means: one who submits to god.  God has already decided who is going to heaven and who is going to hell. It is a very fatalistic worldview. Human beings are helpless in the face of god's wrath. :o

It is not surprising that strict Islam and harsh dictatorship go together so nicely. Like the Taliban. But  am always surprised to find non-Muslims going in this direction. :?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 12, 2013, 02:53:38 PM
I can explain SW's "egregiously harm living beings to bring them into the fold" theobarbarity in two words:

Stockholm Syndrome.

Think about it:  Weird and nasty things are happening to you and your loved ones, and you feel trapped in a world that's out of control.  Your religious beliefs tell you that your god should be helping, but it isn't happening.  To avoid a total crash of faith (which in a crisis may be the sole positive in a sea of negatives), what can one do but proceed on the assumption that there's a reason for the pain and that your god is making you go through all this out of love?

That has no relation to anything I was taught, but an interesting analysis anyway.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: ParkingPlaces on July 12, 2013, 07:00:05 PM
You are concerned about other people.  The whole situation might be
just to get your attention.  You're that important and worth the effort.

A human would have to have quite an ego to think they are that important. And if there is a god, and he is mucking up the lives of others just to get my attention, then fuck him. I've scraped dog shit off of my shoe that was more worthy of my respect than a deity who would harm others rather than just coming right out and saying whatever he wanted to say to me. His hide and seek game just isnt that important.

Don't tell me that humans are born sinners and then assign far more repugnant ideals to your god  That make even my baddest bits and pieces seem completely frickin' benign in comparison. A god pulling stunts like that would be in no position to judge me about anything other than perhaps how snazzily I dress. And he'd be wrong about that too. By default.

If he wants my attention, all he has to do is fart in my general direction. And be visible so that I know who to blame.


Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Azdgari on July 12, 2013, 09:11:37 PM
This whole "God caused X physical event to happen to someone in order to achieve Y" thing is really confusing in light of SkyWriting's other belief, here:

God does his work on earth through believers and has no direct control of matter.

How'd he go about causing the injury, then?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 13, 2013, 09:14:01 AM
This whole "God caused X physical event to happen to someone in order to achieve Y" thing is really confusing in light of SkyWriting's other belief, here:

God does his work on earth through believers and has no direct control of matter.

How'd he go about causing the injury, then?

Why to bad things happen to good people?  Our environment is not under the control of God.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on July 13, 2013, 10:17:17 AM
^^^^^   It has been said before but I will say it again:

"If you could reason with religious people there would be no religious people." - House
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 13, 2013, 10:24:07 AM
So, no matter how much Kiran had prayed, he would have ended up in hospital because THAT is what god had decided to do.

How would I know?  I can't run both tests at the same time.
If I run one test, I don't know the outcome of the second test.
So I don't know if there would be a result or not.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Azdgari on July 13, 2013, 03:17:43 PM
This whole "God caused X physical event to happen to someone in order to achieve Y" thing is really confusing in light of SkyWriting's other belief, here:

God does his work on earth through believers and has no direct control of matter.

How'd he go about causing the injury, then?

Why to bad things happen to good people?  Our environment is not under the control of God.

Alright.  Makes sense.  Care to respond to what I wrote in the post you quoted, now?  You've said that God does physical things.  You've also said that God never does physical things.

Both of these statements cannot be true.  Please pick one.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: screwtape on July 13, 2013, 03:26:28 PM
All,
Please be patient with SkyWriting.  He is on moderated status, which means all his posts must be approved by a moderator.

Thank

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: ghost on July 13, 2013, 10:05:45 PM
Everyone is just commenting "Oh, why doesn't he just give people their limb(s) back?". I'll just share my personal belief. EVERYTHING HAPPENS FOR A REASON. For example:

9/11: Airport and aircraft security was greatly improved, preventing what could have been many more hijacks.

World War II: Improved Germany's Economy, introduced the world to the Atomic bomb, and a whole new world of technology.

I know that's not many examples, but do some yourself. Find a tragedy, worldwide or personal. Of course, maybe you won't be able to think of it, and possibly the reason will be shown in the future. But like I said, EVERYTHING HAPPENS FOR A REASON, even if you don't think it's worth it.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 13, 2013, 10:52:14 PM
Alright.  Makes sense.  Care to respond to what I wrote in the post you quoted, now?  You've said that God does physical things.  You've also said that God never does physical things.

Both of these statements cannot be true.  Please pick one.

The two quotes you've provided are the answer I would give based on my experiences.
God works through the minds of people in anticipation of prayers He already knows
will be coming sometime in "the future".  He knows what is going to be prayed, and
influences people to provide any needed solutions.  In my experience, things I have
prayed for were taken care of by God far ahead of time by His influence on their actions.

I could be wrong in my analysis.  It's possible that God manipulated my prayers to match upcomming events.  Either way, the end result, from my perspective, is answered
prayer in my life.  Some have credited "random chance" but that would be like your
response to this post just happens to be on the same topic. 
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 13, 2013, 10:56:16 PM
Everyone is just commenting "Oh, why doesn't he just give people their limb(s) back?". I'll just share my personal belief. EVERYTHING HAPPENS FOR A REASON. For example:

9/11: Airport and aircraft security was greatly improved, preventing what could have been many more hijacks.

World War II: Improved Germany's Economy, introduced the world to the Atomic bomb, and a whole new world of technology.

I know that's not many examples, but do some yourself. Find a tragedy, worldwide or personal. Of course, maybe you won't be able to think of it, and possibly the reason will be shown in the future. But like I said, EVERYTHING HAPPENS FOR A REASON, even if you don't think it's worth it.

I agree that everything happens for a reason, but I usually focus on creating a good response as the top prioity.  In other words, it is our responsibility to respond well to bad news.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 13, 2013, 10:58:51 PM
^^^^^   It has been said before but I will say it again:

"If you could reason with religious people there would be no religious people." - House

Boob Tube / Idiot-Box characters are next to holiness and more accessible than Gandhi is.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: ParkingPlaces on July 13, 2013, 11:15:39 PM
^^^There is a big difference between things happening for a reason and there being a reason that things happen.

Your attempt to mix your fantasies in with our realities can't end well. While I was just as naive as you when I was younger, I snapped out of it around my first birthday.  Somewhere in there I learned that when bad shit happens, there isn't necessarily good shit mixed in. Sometimes it is just plain bad, through and through. And there is often no good to come from it, unless your homework assignment is to find 33 dead bodies and bring them to school for show and tell. Otherwise, death and mayhem are often indeed tragedies, with no socially redeeming qualities whatsoever.

And while I understand that you are a little concerned that there aren't yet any cute little nursery rhymes about gulf oil spills or the three women in Ohio that were kidnapped and raped daily for years, I suggest you pay more attention to the human condition and learn to ignore your wistful desire for good to come out of everything. It ain't in the bible, it ain't in the kama sutra, and it ain't a contestant on American Idol. You've made it up. Figure that out and come up with something new. Preferably something that is realistic as well.

Added: Five years from now, when you go to get on an airplane and have to strip naked along with the other passengers, and, like them, get handcuffed, blindfolded, gagged and tied to your seat, I'm pretty sure you'll reconsider your wonder-filled assessment of the good that has come from 9/11. The secret of life is to figure those things out sooner.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on July 14, 2013, 11:39:58 AM
^^^^^   It has been said before but I will say it again:

"If you could reason with religious people there would be no religious people." - House

Boob Tube / Idiot-Box characters are next to holiness and more accessible than Gandhi is.

And you've just revealed (in raving colors) how absolutely fucking illogical you are willing to be in order to prop up your failed beliefs which you refuse to provide evidence for.

What you just attempted was called an Argumentum Ad Hominem. Look it up! Arguments stand or fall upon their own merits, regardless of who made them. So, your attempt to discredit a statement purely based upon who made that statement is...B B BULLSHIT.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on July 14, 2013, 11:42:23 AM
Everyone is just commenting "Oh, why doesn't he just give people their limb(s) back?". I'll just share my personal belief. EVERYTHING HAPPENS FOR A REASON. For example:

9/11: Airport and aircraft security was greatly improved, preventing what could have been many more hijacks.

World War II: Improved Germany's Economy, introduced the world to the Atomic bomb, and a whole new world of technology.

I know that's not many examples, but do some yourself. Find a tragedy, worldwide or personal. Of course, maybe you won't be able to think of it, and possibly the reason will be shown in the future. But like I said, EVERYTHING HAPPENS FOR A REASON, even if you don't think it's worth it.

The problem with your argument here is that you have provided no evidence for thinking that "everything happens for [God's] reason" - and this is b/c you haven't provided any reason for thinking there is such a thing.

Even if one agreed that everything happens for a reason, it doesn't in any way mean that they were good reasons.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: nogodsforme on July 14, 2013, 08:42:16 PM
In my brief new age phase (between being religious and deciding it was all bunk) I tried to believe that "everything happens for a reason" and "there are no accidents". I had been through some pretty awful experiences and was trying to make sense of them that way. Some good has to come out of every thing bad, or else we are just at the mercy of chance. Right?

Until reality kicked back in. People don't always get over tragedies; they are sometimes completely destroyed by them. There is not a single good thing that can balance out the genocide of an entire ethnic group, the sexual assault of  children, the flattening of a whole town to a tornado, a team of firefighters burning to death. 

And it is not just the loss of life and property. Suicide, consuming grief, death by drugs or alcohol abuse, severe depression, PTSD or other illnesses are common reactions to surviving horrible experiences. Some people are never able to recover. They are doomed to be institutionalized, to live on charity or to rely on others for support. These are very painful and costly to families and to societies overall.

You can try to scrape together some good out of the bad, you can look for some positive things that might not have happened otherwise. But for every single tragedy, problem or accident that connects to some good outcome, there is a far less painful, less harmful, less costly way that same positive thing could have come about. That is why "god is trying to do some good" is a piss-poor excuse for bad things happening.

If a god wants our attention, he/she/it needs to show up for real and get it in an unambiguous, obvious way. Let everyone know what god you are and exactly what you want--in clear, easily understandable terms.

Don't send a bunch of crazy-a$$ prophets or mysterious messages on the bark of trees. Don't burn an image of your mom on a piece of toast or a tortilla. Don't send a tsunami to Japan, drop a building on Bangladeshi workers, or run a bus over some woman on her way to work, and hope that we can figure it out from there.

That kind of sh!t is not clear, not nice, and will make me NOT want to worship or even believe!
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Anfauglir on July 15, 2013, 03:09:00 AM
So, no matter how much Kiran had prayed, he would have ended up in hospital because THAT is what god had decided to do.

How would I know?  I can't run both tests at the same time.
If I run one test, I don't know the outcome of the second test.
So I don't know if there would be a result or not.

You don't need to conduct the experiment, IF your prior assertions are correct.

You asserted that god does not change what happens based on prayer.

Therefore, if Kiran ends up in hospital, it is because your god wanted it that way.

I don't know why you are finding it so hard to grasp - its all based on what YOU said happens.

If, on the other hand, you wish to make the claim that you can NOT say what would have happened in other circumstances, then you can NOT assert that your god ever did anything in your life because (as you have admitted) you have no way of proving otherwise.

Entirely up to you which way you want to play it.  Just pick one, and stick with it.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: naemhni on July 15, 2013, 08:05:03 AM
In my brief new age phase (between being religious and deciding it was all bunk) I tried to believe that "everything happens for a reason" and "there are no accidents". I had been through some pretty awful experiences and was trying to make sense of them that way. Some good has to come out of every thing bad, or else we are just at the mercy of chance. Right?

Almost exactly the same thing happened to me.  Long story short is an expression whose origins are complicated and meandering.  Oh, sorry.

Long story short is that when I was a senior in high school, I became romantically involved with a woman who was severely mentally ill, but at my age, I lacked sufficient life experience to understand what the problem was.  As a result, I got very heavily into drug use and plunged myself into the New Age movement myself, mostly embracing the worldview espoused by Richard Bach in "Illusions" (which I'm sure you're familiar with).  I don't think I ever actually believed any of it, but I desperately wanted to because, like you, I didn't want to believe that lousy things that happen are just lousy things that happen.  My own New Age phase lasted from age 18 until about 22-ish or thereabouts, at which point it began to fade -- not long after that, I went to college, and after acquiring a lot more learning in a variety of areas, I abandoned all of it completely and embraced materialism and philosophical naturalism.  It wasn't until some years after that that I realized that it's actually a lot more comforting to realize that lousy things that happen really are just lousy things that happen, and it would actually be far more horrifying if everything happened for a reason.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 15, 2013, 10:40:29 AM
You don't need to conduct the experiment, IF your prior assertions are correct.

There is no aspect of science that allows for this statement.
Testing never stops.  Even the most basic laws of science
are retested on a regular basis.  The reason being that
science never proves anything.  It can only guess the results
of a future experiment and hope that all the same previous
conditions were met and the result will be the same.

Prior assertions are never assumed correct and must be
continually retested. That is science.

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 15, 2013, 10:46:52 AM
And you've just revealed (in raving colors) how absolutely fucking illogical you are willing to be in order to prop up your failed beliefs which you refuse to provide evidence for. What you just attempted was called an Argumentum Ad Hominem. Look it up! Arguments stand or fall upon their own merits, regardless of who made them. So, your attempt to discredit a statement purely based upon who made that statement is...B B BULLSHIT.

The Ad Hominem defense is not normally used to defend Idiot Box characters.
But I agree that House is a Holy-Man and his TV character should be worshiped.
Not by me, but by others who worship his wit and cutting banter.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: nogodsforme on July 15, 2013, 03:21:14 PM
^^^Agreed.
If bad things just kinda happen, we have some hope of fixing situations, so bad things happen less often. If bad things happen "for a reason" controlled by some supernatural force, we can't very well fix the bad without ruining the good. Right?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 15, 2013, 04:03:31 PM
^^^Agreed.
If bad things just kinda happen, we have some hope of fixing situations, so bad things happen less often. If bad things happen "for a reason" controlled by some supernatural force, we can't very well fix the bad without ruining the good. Right?

God, grant me the serenity
To accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
and wisdom to know the difference.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Anfauglir on July 16, 2013, 03:08:18 AM
You don't need to conduct the experiment, IF your prior assertions are correct.

There is no aspect of science that allows for this statement. .....

Fortunately, you don't believe in science as I understand it, so the point should presumably be irrelevant for you.  But good try dodging the question.  Let me rephrase it so I can remove your chosen bar to answering it.

So, no matter how much Kiran had prayed, he would have ended up in hospital because THAT is what god had decided to do.

How would I know?  I can't run both tests at the same time.
If I run one test, I don't know the outcome of the second test.
So I don't know if there would be a result or not.

You asserted that god does not change what happens based on prayer.

Therefore, if Kiran ends up in hospital, it is because your god wanted it that way.

I don't know why you are finding it so hard to grasp - its all based on what YOU said happens.

If, on the other hand, you wish to make the claim that you can NOT say what would have happened in other circumstances, then you can NOT assert that your god ever did anything in your life because (as you have admitted) you have no way of proving otherwise.

Of course, if (as you asserted above) you can NOT in any way test your assertion, then I'm sure you will stop making it, and agree with the paragraph I've highlighted in blue.

Entirely up to you which way you want to play it.  Just pick one, and stick with it. 
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Anfauglir on July 16, 2013, 03:17:38 AM
^^^Agreed.
If bad things just kinda happen, we have some hope of fixing situations, so bad things happen less often. If bad things happen "for a reason" controlled by some supernatural force, we can't very well fix the bad without ruining the good. Right?

God, grant me the serenity
To accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
and wisdom to know the difference.

I prefer Calvin & Hobbes: "The strength to change what I can, the inability to accept what I can't, and the incapacity to tell the difference."   ;D
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 16, 2013, 08:48:43 AM
If, on the other hand, you wish to make the claim that you can NOT say what would have happened in other circumstances, then you can NOT assert that your god ever did anything in your life because (as you have admitted) you have no way of proving otherwise.

Sorry, I thought I covered that.  The "miracle" in my answered prayers is the conversation
in my mind with God, just before my prayers are answered.  Because the conversation
is internal, there is no outside proof.   Either God changes the world, or he changes me
so that I ask for what's in store for me. Or maybe a combination.  I don't know which.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Anfauglir on July 17, 2013, 03:25:20 AM
If, on the other hand, you wish to make the claim that you can NOT say what would have happened in other circumstances, then you can NOT assert that your god ever did anything in your life because (as you have admitted) you have no way of proving otherwise.

Sorry, I thought I covered that.  The "miracle" in my answered prayers is the conversation
in my mind with God, just before my prayers are answered.  Because the conversation
is internal, there is no outside proof.   Either God changes the world, or he changes me
so that I ask for what's in store for me. Or maybe a combination.  I don't know which.

Hypothesis:  The only powers that your god has, are an ability to communicate with you in your mind, and an awareness of everything that is going on.  The way the world will unfold is uninfluenced by your god.  Your god only communicates with you to "answer" a prayer when it sees that the world is unfolding in a way that gives you the answer you want.

How would you establish that that hypothesis was incorrect, given your previous assertions that your god will not change his decision on any physical effects he will have on the world?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Anfauglir on July 17, 2013, 03:31:42 AM
I almost missed this dodge - you're good, I'll give you that.

You asserted that god does not change what happens based on prayer.

Therefore, if Kiran ends up in hospital, it is because your god wanted it that way.

I don't know why you are finding it so hard to grasp - its all based on what YOU said happens.

If, on the other hand, you wish to make the claim that you can NOT say what would have happened in other circumstances, then you can NOT assert that your god ever did anything in your life because (as you have admitted) you have no way of proving otherwise.

The "miracle" in my answered prayers is the conversation in my mind with God, just before my prayers are answered.  Because the conversation is internal, there is no outside proof.   Either God changes the world, or he changes me so that I ask for what's in store for me. Or maybe a combination.  I don't know which.

Are you now moving away from your previously very definite position, and saying that perhaps your god DOES change the world - change his mind - in response to prayer?

Will your god divert from the action HE wants to take, to account for our beliefs/desires/prayers?
No.  Never.  Not in a million years.

Because you were very positive that didn't happen.

As I've said, I wish you would stick to one story Sky, it makes it very hard to establish what the heck you really believe.  I can only conclude that you've never been held to account for your views before?

Given that you are unable to provide a consistent picture of your god, can you understand why you give us very, very little reason to tust anything you say?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on July 17, 2013, 07:42:09 AM
If, on the other hand, you wish to make the claim that you can NOT say what would have happened in other circumstances, then you can NOT assert that your god ever did anything in your life because (as you have admitted) you have no way of proving otherwise.

Sorry, I thought I covered that.  The "miracle" in my answered prayers is the conversation
in my mind with God, just before my prayers are answered.  Because the conversation
is internal, there is no outside proof.   Either God changes the world, or he changes me
so that I ask for what's in store for me. Or maybe a combination.  I don't know which.

Hypothesis:  The only powers that your god has, are an ability to communicate with you in your mind, and an awareness of everything that is going on.  The way the world will unfold is uninfluenced by your god.  Your god only communicates with you to "answer" a prayer when it sees that the world is unfolding in a way that gives you the answer you want.

How would you establish that that hypothesis was incorrect, given your previous assertions that your god will not change his decision on any physical effects he will have on the world?

I am positive that God changes the world through the actions of people who are "tuned in" to His desires.  I read similar statements from scores of people who have acted on such guidance and witnesses the results myself.  Because God is not subject to time, He doesn't change.  But our world can.  It is subject to change.  Experiments bare this out.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Anfauglir on July 31, 2013, 08:15:55 AM
Sorry Sky - I didn't see an answer, just "well, I think....."

Hypothesis:  The only powers that your god has, are an ability to communicate with you in your mind, and an awareness of everything that is going on.  The way the world will unfold is uninfluenced by your god.  Your god only communicates with you to "answer" a prayer when it sees that the world is unfolding in a way that gives you the answer you want.

How would you establish that that hypothesis was incorrect, given your previous assertions that your god will not change his decision on any physical effects he will have on the world?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Anfauglir on July 31, 2013, 08:20:45 AM
....but this paragraph does speak to the "does god change the world" question that you still haven't clarified.

I am positive that God changes the world through the actions of people who are "tuned in" to His desires. 

Okay, let's stop there.  So are you saying that god has desires that do NOT come to fruition because not enough people are "tuned in to his desires"?  That seems to contradict what you've been saying previously - that the world will always turn out a particular way because that's the way your god wants it.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: nogodsforme on July 31, 2013, 03:02:19 PM
There does seem to be that trap for Christian religious people who say that god is both powerful and good-- the pesky problem of evil.

If people are free to do good or bad things, where does god come in? Does he just sit back and watch, or does he intervene? If he does intervene, what criteria does he use to decide when and how? And why is it so hard to tell if god has intervened or not, since nothing obviously supernatural (like a child's missing arm reappearing after the parents pray, or a tornado skipping around all the Christian homes in a neighborhood) ever happens?

And what about things that people don't do, but are just good or bad situations, presumably created or at least approved of by god? Like one kid being born to rich European parents and never lacking for anything vs a kid being born in a war-torn country in the middle of a famine?

Either the world is exactly the way god wants it to be, good along with the bad, or it is not the way god wants it to be. If the world is not the way god wants it, what kind of wimpy half-baked god is that? If it is the way god wants it, you have to explain why god wants so many bad things to happen to some people and not to others.

Enter Christian excuses: mysterious ways, free will, vague platitudes, sketchy anecdotes and circular reasoning. I keep returning to the explanation given by the Hindu belief in reincarnation and karma-- you are being punished or rewarded in this life for whatever you did in a previous life. There is no evidence supporting it either, but at least it makes internal sense. And has the added benefit of not requiring anyone to take any action. &)

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: epidemic on August 13, 2013, 08:03:28 AM
Everyone is just commenting "Oh, why doesn't he just give people their limb(s) back?". I'll just share my personal belief. EVERYTHING HAPPENS FOR A REASON. For example:

9/11: Airport and aircraft security was greatly improved, preventing what could have been many more hijacks.

World War II: Improved Germany's Economy, introduced the world to the Atomic bomb, and a whole new world of technology.

I know that's not many examples, but do some yourself. Find a tragedy, worldwide or personal. Of course, maybe you won't be able to think of it, and possibly the reason will be shown in the future. But like I said, EVERYTHING HAPPENS FOR A REASON, even if you don't think it's worth it.

Ok airport and aircraft security was improved???  How is that a good thing?  Wouldn't it be better to not need aircraft security.

WWII improved german economy at a cost of 10's of millions of lives and untold suffering,  Couldn't god have thought of a less destructive way to improve an economy?  Yeah we have the atomic bomb because of WWII, is that a good thing?  Perhaps god should have inspired someone to make a better solar power in 1938 and we could be on a green path.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: nogodsforme on August 13, 2013, 10:37:03 AM
That's a pretty sad argument, that you can look back on everything horrible and dig out a diamond from the mountain of sh!t. If there was a powerful, loving, kind being in charge, he could certainly give us the diamonds without the sh!t. And most of the mountains don't have any diamonds.

Human beings manage to persevere and survive on this planet in spite of the universe being tremendously hostile to all life forms.  But survival does not have to be pretty. Much of the time it is not. We are a resilient and adaptable species, like cockroaches.

There is no upside to child soldiers, genocide, human trafficking, drug addiction, natural disasters, extinction of species, nuclear plant accidents. That does not mean we just give up-- life is a wonderful thing and beautiful marvels happen every day. In spite of the sh!t mountains, not because of them.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on August 13, 2013, 01:22:06 PM
I am positive that God changes the world through the actions of people who are "tuned in" to His desires. 

And some young children are positive that their invisible friend 'Fred' is real. You need to provide actual evidence, not just a faulty interpretation based upon as assumption of divinity.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on August 13, 2013, 11:51:39 PM
And some young children are positive that their invisible friend 'Fred' is real. You need to provide actual evidence, not just a faulty interpretation based upon as assumption of divinity.

Naturally you'll need to describe the characteristics of such evidence you would except.
How about people who would die for what they believed?   

Who would die for a lie?

"Yes, many people have died for a lie, but they did so believing it was the truth. If the Resurrection had not happened, obviously the disciples would have known it. Therefore, they would not only have died for a lie—here’s the catch—but they would have known it was a lie. It would be hard to find a group of men anywhere in history who would die for a lie if they knew it was a lie."
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws.com%2Fjmm.us%2FPDFs-Downloadable%2FEaster%2BArticles%2B-%2BWho%2BWould%2Bdie%2Bfor%2Ba%2Blie.pdf
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on August 14, 2013, 12:01:16 AM
We are a resilient and adaptable species, like cockroaches.

No scientist anywhere has ever made that claim.  Not even now.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on August 14, 2013, 12:07:07 AM
There does seem to be that trap for Christian religious people who say that god is both powerful and good-- the pesky problem of evil. If people are free to do good or bad things, where does god come in?

He only works in His realm, Spirit.  Jesus did walk among us for a time, then left.
God only works in the Spirit world.   Native americans did have a concept of one
and the same and they could ask that question.  But you don't indicate that your
of their background.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: SkyWriting on August 14, 2013, 12:11:03 AM
That seems to contradict what you've been saying previously - that the world will always turn out a particular way because that's the way your god wants it.

I've indicated that the future is already done and over with from God's perspective.
That's quite different from what you remember me saying. 
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: nogodsforme on August 14, 2013, 10:33:06 AM
God (or whatever it is that people who believe in god refer to when they say god)[1] changes the world through earthquakes, volcanoes, wildfires, hurricanes, tornadoes, blizzards, floods, droughts and avalanches. People, plants and animals are just in the way.

Unless god is using people to produce global climate change, I don't see what humans have to do with it....
 1. like "the artist formerly known as Prince"
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on August 14, 2013, 11:44:01 AM
And some young children are positive that their invisible friend 'Fred' is real. You need to provide actual evidence, not just a faulty interpretation based upon as assumption of divinity.

Naturally you'll need to describe the characteristics of such evidence you would except.
How about people who would die for what they believed?   

Who would die for a lie?

"Yes, many people have died for a lie, but they did so believing it was the truth. If the Resurrection had not happened, obviously the disciples would have known it. Therefore, they would not only have died for a lie—here’s the catch—but they would have known it was a lie. It would be hard to find a group of men anywhere in history who would die for a lie if they knew it was a lie."
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws.com%2Fjmm.us%2FPDFs-Downloadable%2FEaster%2BArticles%2B-%2BWho%2BWould%2Bdie%2Bfor%2Ba%2Blie.pdf (https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws.com%2Fjmm.us%2FPDFs-Downloadable%2FEaster%2BArticles%2B-%2BWho%2BWould%2Bdie%2Bfor%2Ba%2Blie.pdf)

Josh Mcdowell's argument? Really?

You apologists just love your credulity. You say things like "the disciples" this or "the disciples" that, as if everyone around you is willing to enter into your same gullibility regarding what happened with them or what took place 2000+ years ago. It's absurd. You don't know what the disciples "would have known". You merely assume. What you have is yet another assumption based upon your other assumptions that what you are reading in those pages is accurate. But you don't know they are accurate. You merely assume it - just like the Christians who came before you. That is your problem.
 
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on August 14, 2013, 11:59:18 AM

He only works in His realm, Spirit.  Jesus did walk among us for a time, then left.
God only works in the Spirit world.   Native americans did have a concept of one
and the same and they could ask that question.  But you don't indicate that your
of their background.

It astonishes me how you apologists are easily willing to sacrifice reason at the alter of your gullibility. So this "Spirit" didn't do any physical miracles back in the day? No burning bush? No raising the dead? It only "works in His spirit realm"? WOW.


"Just like the wizard of Oz. A bunch of show and nothing behind the curtain."
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Aaron123 on August 14, 2013, 01:20:45 PM
Who would die for a lie?

"Yes, many people have died for a lie, but they did so believing it was the truth. If the Resurrection had not happened, obviously the disciples would have known it. Therefore, they would not only have died for a lie—here’s the catch—but they would have known it was a lie. It would be hard to find a group of men anywhere in history who would die for a lie if they knew it was a lie."
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws.com%2Fjmm.us%2FPDFs-Downloadable%2FEaster%2BArticles%2B-%2BWho%2BWould%2Bdie%2Bfor%2Ba%2Blie.pdf

This assumes the disciples were real, historcial people.  Said disciples have never been confirmed to be real, historcial people.  Same with Jesus.

Using the characters in the bible is no different than using the characters in Star Wars to prove that Star Wars is a historcial document.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: screwtape on August 14, 2013, 02:46:10 PM
Of course Darth Vader was real.  Whom else would Obi Wan have dueled on the Death Star?  Ane we have Luke as evidence that there really had been Anakin Skywalker.  What, are we to believe Luke did not have a father?  Sheesh. 
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: nogodsforme on August 14, 2013, 04:45:07 PM
We are a resilient and adaptable species, like cockroaches.

No scientist anywhere has ever made that claim.  Not even now.

What claim?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Mrjason on August 15, 2013, 10:35:24 AM
And some young children are positive that their invisible friend 'Fred' is real. You need to provide actual evidence, not just a faulty interpretation based upon as assumption of divinity.

Naturally you'll need to describe the characteristics of such evidence you would except.
How about people who would die for what they believed?   

Who would die for a lie?

"Yes, many people have died for a lie, but they did so believing it was the truth. If the Resurrection had not happened, obviously the disciples would have known it. Therefore, they would not only have died for a lie—here’s the catch—but they would have known it was a lie. It would be hard to find a group of men anywhere in history who would die for a lie if they knew it was a lie."
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws.com%2Fjmm.us%2FPDFs-Downloadable%2FEaster%2BArticles%2B-%2BWho%2BWould%2Bdie%2Bfor%2Ba%2Blie.pdf

The most obvious answer to this[1] is the 9/11 hijackers.

you also have answerd the question in your qoute
Quote
Yes, many people have died for a lie, but they did so believing it was the truth
 1. as you are not a follower of islam
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on August 15, 2013, 11:23:45 AM
Quote
...but they [the disciples] would have known it was a lie.

Oh? And how exactly did you come to this conclusion?

(http://msnixinthemix.com/wp-content/uploads/assume-dont.png)
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Hatter23 on August 15, 2013, 02:47:15 PM
By the way, I've known about Pascal's Wager forever. I just didn't reference it as that. And I agree its a shallow argument but it sometimes helps people that can not think beyond the realms of logic and reason or physical rules and laws.

Yeah, you think outside the box. We don't. That box is called "reality"
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Hatter23 on August 15, 2013, 02:48:44 PM
There does seem to be that trap for Christian religious people who say that god is both powerful and good-- the pesky problem of evil. If people are free to do good or bad things, where does god come in?

He only works in His realm, Spirit.

Or in other words; indistinguishable from any other brand of made of crap.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Hatter23 on August 15, 2013, 02:51:51 PM
We are a resilient and adaptable species, like cockroaches.

No scientist anywhere has ever made that claim.  Not even now.

Actually they do. We've been listed as the 9th most sucessful macroscopic species in the history of Earth. Admittedly, Dinosaurs come in at #6.



Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: nogodsforme on August 15, 2013, 04:48:32 PM
We are a resilient and adaptable species, like cockroaches.

No scientist anywhere has ever made that claim.  Not even now.

Actually they do. We've been listed as the 9th most sucessful macroscopic species in the history of Earth. Admittedly, Dinosaurs come in at #6.

http://geopolicraticus.wordpress.com/2009/04/28/quantifying-biological-success/

Here is a site that lists criteria for figuring out what species is successful. We can't just say that humans are the top of the heap because we are cute and all. There has to be some way to evaluate "success". Now that I have some evidence, so I can say I was indeed making a claim. Before I was just pulling something out of you-know-where. Like a lot of our religious friends.

http://nfsfilms.weebly.com/top-10-successful-animals.html

On this list, humans come out just barely ahead of rodents. People and rats are the top two mammal species--yay! Right ahead of us on the list, dinosaurs were also extremely successful animals. It does not seem like god really made us all that special.

Including all life forms, grasses and conifers beat humans. Number one and two on the success list-- viruses and bacteria. Pesky buggers, constantly evolving resistance and quick to adapt to new environmental niches. God really loves viruses and bacteria. Also insects, spiders and crurotaursi, whatever the hell they are. :P
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: jaimehlers on August 15, 2013, 05:16:35 PM
Including all life forms, grasses and conifers beat humans. Number one and two on the success list-- viruses and bacteria. Pesky buggers, constantly evolving resistance and quick to adapt to new environmental niches. God really loves viruses and bacteria. Also insects, spiders and crurotaursi, whatever the hell they are. :P
But hey, he loves humans eighth-most.  That's got to count for something.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: nogodsforme on August 15, 2013, 05:25:30 PM
crurotaursi

I looked it up. They are the precursors of modern birds and crocodiles. Learned me sumpin' new.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on August 15, 2013, 10:24:49 PM
By the way, I've known about Pascal's Wager forever. I just didn't reference it as that. And I agree its a shallow argument but it sometimes helps people that can not think beyond the realms of logic and reason or physical rules and laws.

Since when was "thinking beyond logic and reason" a good thing? You seem to be saying that when your faith/belief contradicts logic then you have no problem siding with your belief. Why is that?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Graybeard on August 16, 2013, 05:09:40 AM
How about people who would die for what they believed?
   

Who would die for a lie?

"Yes, many people have died for a lie, but they did so believing it was the truth. If the Resurrection had not happened, obviously the disciples would have known it. Therefore, they would not only have died for a lie—here’s the catch—but they would have known it was a lie. It would be hard to find a group of men anywhere in history who would die for a lie if they knew it was a lie."

This is the weirdest piece of so-called logic I have seen in a long time. The terminally, religiously, deluded delight in martyrdom. I take it that you have heard of suicide bombers who believe they will inherit a number of virgins?

Take the example of yourself: you admit that there is no evidence for Jesus’s divinity in that there is no evidence for deities but nevertheless, and, irrationally, you are convinced of the truth of their being at least one god.

If there were a Jesus and if there were a resurrection, we can therefore dismiss everyone who was willing to die for a cause who was not present during that time. This leaves the disciples. Unfortunately, we do not know what they went around saying. We do not know that they preached the resurrection. We know very little of their lives after about 40AD: all we know is what the New Testament says that they said and did and the NT often contradicts known history.

I draw your attention to the Gospel of Mark. It has no reference to a virgin birth and it ends at 16:8 and is allegedly the most authoritative and from which other writers took their information and ideas. Mark does not include reference to the resurrection. Later writers added 9-20 to correct what they saw was an omission.

I also draw your attention to points that many other members and I have made to you:

1.   If anyone had risen from death by judicial execution, this would have been recorded by the Romans and also by the Jews.
2.   If, at the alleged crucifixion, there had been earthquakes, violent winds, and the dead rising from their graves, this would have been recorded by the Romans and also by the Jews.
3.   If there had been a man who walked on water, raised the dead, cured the sick, etc, do you not think that Christianity would have taken off in the area around where he did these things? Yet Judaism is alive and well and (if he were there at all, accurately) states Jesus was a minor prophet.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Hatter23 on August 16, 2013, 07:00:41 AM
We are a resilient and adaptable species, like cockroaches.

No scientist anywhere has ever made that claim.  Not even now.

Actually they do. We've been listed as the 9th most sucessful macroscopic species in the history of Earth. Admittedly, Dinosaurs come in at #6.

http://geopolicraticus.wordpress.com/2009/04/28/quantifying-biological-success/

Here is a site that lists criteria for figuring out what species is successful. We can't just say that humans are the top of the heap because we are cute and all. There has to be some way to evaluate "success". Now that I have some evidence, so I can say I was indeed making a claim. Before I was just pulling something out of you-know-where. Like a lot of our religious friends.

http://nfsfilms.weebly.com/top-10-successful-animals.html

On this list, humans come out just barely ahead of rodents. People and rats are the top two mammal species--yay! Right ahead of us on the list, dinosaurs were also extremely successful animals. It does not seem like god really made us all that special.

Including all life forms, grasses and conifers beat humans. Number one and two on the success list-- viruses and bacteria. Pesky buggers, constantly evolving resistance and quick to adapt to new environmental niches. God really loves viruses and bacteria. Also insects, spiders and crurotaursi, whatever the hell they are. :P

Sure it varies according to criterion, and certainly if you add plants...human come nowhere near top ten. However, humans are, overall a very sucessful species for a macroscopic animal. They are neither "the worst" or "the most special/best," just "better than most." That's my point; nothing indicates some sort of unique place for humans at the top or the bottom of everything to indicate either a divine plan or ecological self loathing posed by the religious or the far left. No ideology, just science.

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Anfauglir on August 23, 2013, 05:22:43 AM
That seems to contradict what you've been saying previously - that the world will always turn out a particular way because that's the way your god wants it.

I've indicated that the future is already done and over with from God's perspective.
That's quite different from what you remember me saying.

Probably because your opinion changes depending on what particular apology you are concentrating on at the time.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: idontknow on October 02, 2013, 02:29:50 AM
George Smith takes another angle on it, calling it the Atheist's Wager.  Live your life as an atheist.  If god does not exist, it won't make any difference; if god exists, but is just, you have nothing to fear; and if god exists but is unjust, you have much to fear, but so does the Christian.

It's a quote from Marcus Aurelius:

"Live a good life.
If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by.
If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
I am not afraid."

Why would justice not care about devotion? Why should differing and conflicting values be judged based on sincerity? The problem is that justice is just as malleable a concept as morality. If there's a God then whatever he says is just is just, even if we disagree. So if we reject him, and he says it is just to be eternally separated from him in the afterlife based on our earthly rejection of him, then that is just because he says so and he's God. Disagreement or dissatisfaction therewith would not render justice injustice. What's this obsession with justice anyways? Why not mercy and grace?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: screwtape on October 02, 2013, 08:18:03 AM
The problem is that justice is just as malleable a concept as morality. If there's a God then whatever he says is just is just, even if we disagree.

Your second sentence is negated by the first.

Your argument seems to be "might makes right."  Just because a being has the power to do something and we do not have the power to resist, does not make it just.  I can pull all the legs off a spider without killing it.  It cannot stop me.  Does that make it just?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on October 02, 2013, 10:52:52 AM

Why would justice not care about devotion? Why should differing and conflicting values be judged based on sincerity? The problem is that justice is just as malleable a concept as morality. If there's a God then whatever he says is just is just, even if we disagree. So if we reject him, and he says it is just to be eternally separated from him in the afterlife based on our earthly rejection of him, then that is just because he says so and he's God. Disagreement or dissatisfaction therewith would not render justice injustice. What's this obsession with justice anyways? Why not mercy and grace?

What you've just presented is one leg of The Euthyphro Dilemma.

The Euthyphro Dilemma:

"Is that which is good commanded by God because it's good, or is it good because God commands it?"[1]

1. If that which is good (or just) is commanded by God because it is good, then there is a standard of goodness/justice which is above God, and which God himself must adhere to, rendering God just the messenger of what is moral and not the standard.

2. If that which is good (or just) is such simply because God commands it then you have nothing but an arbitrary morality, a divine dictatorship (a cosmic Kim Jong IL), at which case nothing is truly moral or just because this dictator could change his mind at anytime (kind of like a mafia boss). If this option is true, how could you ever know (or judge correctly) that God's commands are good? HINT: The answer "b/c the bible tells me so" is not sufficient b/c there are lots of religious texts that say otherwise - nearly all of them are self contradictory - and no religious sects can agree on theology anyways.

Now if (like many Christians) you attempt to argue that there is a 3rd option (i.e. - that what is good/just represents "God's eternal unchanging nature" or something like that) you still haven't solved the problem. God's "nature" in the bible is often depicted as quite contrary to what is good. For example, is murder contrary to "God's nature"? The bible depicts God commanding, endorsing, and performing the termination of human lives all throughout the bible (aka - the Amalekites, the 42 young boys mauled by bears, women and children, etc). Is that moral?  Furthermore, this answer is circular. What standard are you using to determine that God is moral, just, good, etc? If you refer to the bible, then all you've done is appeal to...God (again). So saying "God is the standard of what is just" is no different from saying, "God is the standard of what is God".

I'm sorry to have you tell you this but this view has been falsified. It is irrational nonsense and it should be abandoned in exchange for better reasoning.
 1. http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Euthyphro_dilemma
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: idontknow on October 02, 2013, 01:17:09 PM
Your second sentence is negated by the first.

Your argument seems to be "might makes right."  Just because a being has the power to do something and we do not have the power to resist, does not make it just.  I can pull all the legs off a spider without killing it.  It cannot stop me.  Does that make it just?

I'm not saying might makes right. Right makes right. Our notions of right often are at odds with God's notions of right. He's the ultimate arbiter, not us. How could it be us? There are thousands of different worldviews out there with differing versions of morality. Why is one the right morality to the exclusion of others? Either there is no absolute morality or only God's morality is perfect. If there is no absolute morality, then any talk of right or good or better is silly, as none of those terms can be true in any given situation.

What you've just presented is one leg of The Euthyphro Dilemma.
"Is that which is good commanded by God because it's good, or is it good because God commands it?" [citation omitted]

1. If that which is good (or just) is commanded by God because it is good, then there is a standard of goodness/justice which is above God, and which God himself must adhere to, rendering God just the messenger of what is moral and not the standard.

2. If that which is good (or just) is such simply because God commands it then you have nothing but an arbitrary morality, a divine dictatorship (a cosmic Kim Jong Il), at which case nothing is truly moral or just because this dictator could change his mind at anytime (kind of like a mafia boss). If this option is true, how could you ever know (or judge correctly) that God's commands are good? HINT: The answer "b/c the bible tells me so" is not sufficient b/c there are lots of religious texts that say otherwise - nearly all of them are self contradictory - and no religious sects can agree on theology anyways.

Now if (like many Christians) you attempt to argue that there is a 3rd option (i.e. - that what is good/just represents "God's eternal unchanging nature" or something like that) you still haven't solved the problem. God's "nature" in the bible is often depicted as quite contrary to what is good. For example, is murder contrary to "God's nature"? The bible depicts God commanding, endorsing, and performing the termination of human lives all throughout the bible (aka - the Amalekites, the 42 young boys mauled by bears, women and children, etc). Is that moral?  Furthermore, this answer is circular. What standard are you using to determine that God is moral, just, good, etc? If you refer to the bible, then all you've done is appeal to...God (again). So saying "God is the standard of what is just" is no different from saying, "God is the standard of what is God".

I'm sorry to have you tell you this but this view has been falsified. It is irrational nonsense and it should be abandoned in exchange for better reasoning.

False dichotomy. Morality is such not merely because God relays and commands it but because God himself is good and moral. As the creator of everything, his goodness went into his creation, and the original creation was perfect and not fallen. Since he gave both angels and mankind free will, however, and since many angels and all of mankind fell, this world does not exude the perfection and morality that God started it out with. Moreover, just because God could change his mind in the sense that it's within the realm of possibility doesn't mean he's going do. Indeed, he won't, because it is not in his nature. So the mafia boss analogy is, well, terrible.

Now when you claim that God's nature in the Bible is often contrary to morality, all you're doing is using your own standard for morality instead of someone else's. Millions of people probably agree with you, and millions of other people probably agree with me: either God's recorded acts in the Bible are moral or immoral, depending on which camp you're in. But why and how can either one of us be right?

Oh, you've got specific examples you want to discuss: God commanded people to die at various times in the Bible, and that can never be moral, right? Not necessarily. Wouldn't most of us, if we could go back in history and kill Hitler as a child, for example, do so, knowing what we know now that he'd grow up to do? Probably. Isn't it immoral to kill a child? It would seem so. But only a time traveler from the future would have the knowledge of what evil that child would bring into the world. If God is omniscient, he knows what evil the Amalekites, the 42 young boys, etc etc would bring into the world if they weren't permitted to continue living. That's harsh, but it's also reality. God could have been preventing much worse things from occurring via such judgments, which we simply don't know about because he prevented them from occurring.

In sum, you presume to know better/best. All it boils down to is you imposing your morality on God's conduct. If God is omniscient and infinitely wise, that's a silly endeavor by you, because we don't know all the other alternate realities that could have arisen.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Nam on October 02, 2013, 02:59:35 PM
Quote from: idontknow
There are thousands of different worldviews out there with differing versions of God. Why is one the right God to the exclusion of others? Either there is no absolute God or only morality is imperfect. If there is no absolute God, then any talk of right or good or better is silly, as none of those terms can be true in any given situation.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: nogodsforme on October 02, 2013, 03:12:00 PM
IDK, if you truly believe what you said, then you must think that it is okay to kill a child by chopping off it's head if god says to do it. Not only okay, but a wonderful thing. So chopping off children's heads is wonderful when god says to do it. Chopping off children's heads is evil, of course, if god says not to do it. Therefore the act of chopping off children's heads is neither good nor bad, but relative to what god wants

Likewise with rape, slavery, genocide, torture, burning entire villages and starving the inhabitants. All a-okay if god says so. &)

This is the same kind of thinking that allowed the Crusades, the burning of witches, the massacre of native people all over the world. It is the same kind of thinking that allows the Taliban to cut off women's hands for wearing nail polish and to stone girls to death for talking to boys. It is the same kind of thinking that allows Saudi Arabia and Uganda to execute gay men.  >:(

You have just negated the idea of absolute morality, dude. I am not a philosopher and even I can see that.

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: idontknow on October 02, 2013, 03:17:53 PM
IDK, if you truly believe what you said, then you must think that it is okay to kill a child by chopping off it's head if god says to do it. Not only okay, but a wonderful thing. So chopping off children's heads is wonderful when god says to do it. Chopping off children's heads is evil, of course, if god says not to do it. Therefore the act of chopping off children's heads is neither good nor bad, but relative to what god wants

Likewise with rape, slavery, genocide, torture, burning entire villages and starving the inhabitants. All a-okay if god says so. &)

This is the same kind of thinking that allowed the Crusades, the burning of witches, the massacre of native people all over the world. It is the same kind of thinking that allows the Taliban to cut off women's hands for wearing nail polish and to stone girls to death for talking to boys. It is the same kind of thinking that allows Saudi Arabia and Uganda to execute gay men.  >:(

You have just negated the idea of absolute morality, dude. I am not a philosopher and even I can see that.

I didn't negate absolute morality at all. The difference is whether God in fact commands a particular thing. For example, there's no denying God, according to the Bible, literally killed everyone on earth at one time except for Noah and his family. But that doesn't mean it was immoral. According to the story, the earth was completely evil at that time. Kind of like putting a rabid dog to sleep. Ordinarily, yeah, it's mean and wrong to kill a dog. But if it's endangering others, then it should be done.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Nam on October 02, 2013, 03:24:01 PM
Quote
But that doesn't mean it was immoral.

Hitler was responsible for the deaths of over 10 million people. His act was immoral.

Biblegod , according to the Bible, is responsible for much more deaths than that but was moral.

You're an idiot. You're religion is idiotic, and if your god actually existed it'd be a criminal according to the general worldview of what is moral.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: idontknow on October 02, 2013, 03:31:26 PM
Quote from: idontknowshit
But that doesn't mean it was immoral.

Hitler was responsible for the deaths of over 10 million people. His act was immoral.

Biblegod , according to the Bible, is responsible for much more deaths than that but was moral.

You're an idiot. You're religion is idiotic, and if your god actually existed it'd be a criminal according to the general worldview of what is moral.

-Nam

Is name calling really the best way forward?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Hatter23 on October 02, 2013, 03:38:14 PM
. According to the story, the earth was completely evil at that time. Kind of like putting a rabid dog to sleep. Ordinarily, yeah, it's mean and wrong to kill a dog. But if it's endangering others, then it should be done.

However, if you could cure the rabies and show up and teach the dog when it is doing wrong, then killing it is still an immoral act.

Furthermore, think about the story, do you not consider that there would be children under the age of ten? Under 5? Under a month old?

What did the one month olds do to warrant their deaths by drowning?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Nam on October 02, 2013, 03:38:18 PM
Quote from: idontknowshit
But that doesn't mean it was immoral.

Hitler was responsible for the deaths of over 10 million people. His act was immoral.

Biblegod , according to the Bible, is responsible for much more deaths than that but was moral.

You're an idiot. You're religion is idiotic, and if your god actually existed it'd be a criminal according to the general worldview of what is moral.

-Nam

Is name calling really the best way forward?

For idiots like you -- sure is.

If what Biblegod  did in the Bible was moral to an idiot like you then what Hitler did was moral to an idiot like you.

You can't say (if you are) that one mass murderer is moral and all the rest were immoral. Either they all were moral or they all were immoral. You can't have it your warped idiotic way.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: idontknow on October 02, 2013, 03:50:10 PM
However, if you could cure the rabies and show up and teach the dog when it is doing wrong, then killing it is still an immoral act.
Furthermore, think about the story, do you not consider that there would be children under the age of ten? Under 5? Under a month old?
What did the one month olds do to warrant their deaths by drowning?
That is a good point. I never really thought of it that way before. I suppose you're right: God could have "cured" the world of evil prior to flooding it by showing up and teaching it what it was doing wrong. But I would suggest that the world wouldn't have listened. After all, Jesus showed up to teach the world what it was doing wrong, and we all know how that turned out. In any event, this goes back to the reason I chose my user name: I don't know why God does certain things and decides not to do certain other things. But I nonetheless believe that he is omniscient and omnipotent (though not all-loving, as I've posted elsewhere, because there is no Biblical support for that).

For idiots like you -- sure is.
If what Biblegod  did in the Bible was moral to an idiot like you then what Hitler did was moral to an idiot like you.
I would be happy to reply to you substantively if you kindly retract your insult. I am not asking you to do so because I can't handle it: I can. It's just bad form. I would be a little surprised if others on this site didn't agree with me on this point.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: neopagan on October 02, 2013, 03:53:33 PM
. According to the story, the earth was completely evil at that time. Kind of like putting a rabid dog to sleep. Ordinarily, yeah, it's mean and wrong to kill a dog. But if it's endangering others, then it should be done.

However, if you could cure the rabies and show up and teach the dog when it is doing wrong, then killing it is still an immoral act.

Furthermore, think about the story, do you not consider that there would be children under the age of ten? Under 5? Under a month old?

What did the one month olds do to warrant their deaths by drowning?

What did the unborn babies do?  What did the animals do?  You said the earth was completely evil (bold above) whatever that means.  What did the plants, trees, bacteria, etc. do to piss off YHWH?  Your god is the very definition of an immoral and childish buffoon who went on smashing and killing rampages.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: screwtape on October 02, 2013, 03:56:44 PM
I'm not saying might makes right. Right makes right.

But right "the problem is that justice is just as malleable a concept as morality. "  I took that to mean justice is not an absolute, carved in stone, black and white thing.  It is subjective.  And because that is so, there is no Right.  yhwh's idea of right is just as arbitrary as anyone's. 

Did I misunderstand your original statement?

Our notions of right often are at odds with God's notions of right.

That is unpossible.  We were given the divine power of Moral Knowledge when Eve and her slow witted mate ate the fruit from the tree thereof.  Even yhwh admitted it.  In fact, he seemed quite freaked out by it.  He was especially panicked by the thought of them also gaining immortality.

He's the ultimate arbiter, not us.

Why? 

How could it be us?

Setting aside the facts that there is no one else to arbitrate and gods and moral absolutes do not exist, I would say, speaking your language, because we have the divine power of Moral Knowledge.

There are thousands of different worldviews out there with differing versions of morality.

Curiously, all of them claim to have some divine source or authorization.  And still, all different...

Why is one the right morality to the exclusion of others?

Who said there was?

Either there is no absolute morality or only God's morality is perfect.

There is no absolute morality.  Where do I pick up my prize?  And that is a non sequitur.  It does not logically follow.  There could be absolute morality and god's could be different and non-perfect.

If there is no absolute morality, then any talk of right or good or better is silly, as none of those terms can be true in any given situation.

Correct in that talk of right or good is silly.  Those are judgments.  They reflect a perspective.   They are terms the adults use for children.  Morals are the rules that allow people to function together as groups. 
 

Your next post, which appeared whilst I typed, was pretty bad.  perhaps I'll address it later.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: idontknow on October 02, 2013, 04:02:22 PM
What did the unborn babies do?  What did the animals do?  You said the earth was completely evil (bold above) whatever that means.  What did the plants, trees, bacteria, etc. do to piss off YHWH?  Your god is the very definition of an immoral and childish buffoon who went on smashing and killing rampages.

I apologize for not addressing that point in my previous post. You are mostly correct: the unborn babies and animals seemingly did nothing worthy of death as far as we can tell. As for the types of evil prevalent immediately before the flood, we weren't there, so we can't know firsthand exactly all that it entailed. But apparently it was really awful, so bad that God wanted to start all over again. (As for the plants, trees, bacteria, etc, it does not appear that they perished, so that appears to be a moot point.)

It is likely that if you or I were in God's position, we would have done things differently, is that fair to say we agree on? But we don't have the benefit of omniscience. It's God's creation, and if he wants to hit a reset button, he's entitled to do that. He made it all, and he knows all the intricacies and alternate realities that could have arisen if he didn't send the flood. I trust his wisdom and judgment to be just and right in the grand scheme of things, even if we don't understand it yet.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Nam on October 02, 2013, 04:15:10 PM
Nonsense.

Why doesn't Biblegod  just wipe us all out now? No need for flooding, can just take away our oxygen, or give massive earthquakes, or make all the nuclear bombs go off accidentally.

Are you saying that we're less evil today than a few million people thousands of years ago?

Look in the mirror and say, "I am an idiot for believing in this complete nonsense.".

-Nam
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: idontknow on October 02, 2013, 04:17:41 PM
But right "the problem is that justice is just as malleable a concept as morality. "  I took that to mean justice is not an absolute, carved in stone, black and white thing.  It is subjective.  And because that is so, there is no Right.  yhwh's idea of right is just as arbitrary as anyone's. 
...
That is unpossible.  We were given the divine power of Moral Knowledge when Eve and her slow witted mate ate the fruit from the tree thereof.  Even yhwh admitted it.  In fact, he seemed quite freaked out by it.  He was especially panicked by the thought of them also gaining immortality.
...
Curiously, all of them claim to have some divine source or authorization.  And still, all different...
...
There is no absolute morality.  Where do I pick up my prize?  And that is a non sequitur.  It does not logically follow.  There could be absolute morality and god's could be different and non-perfect.
...

Justice and morality according to God and according to man are going to butt heads. What you consider just and moral is likely different than your neighbor's and your cousin's and your barber's considerations on the same issues. So, if it's subjective, why does it matter? We might as well all be libertarians espousing the non-aggression principle if justice and morality are subjective. (Actually, I really am a libertarian too.)

Props for making me chuckle by calling Adam Eve's slow witted mate lol. I've never heard that one before. But in any event, I do not think the Biblical story can be construed at all as God panicking at the thought of Adam and Eve being immortal. He created them immortal. They never would have died if they didn't eat the forbidden fruit. God never intended Adam and Eve to die. They ushered in death for all of mankind by exercising their free will.

God is the arbiter if he's the one who created the earth, mankind, and the universe. It's all his, so he decides what's just and moral.

All worldviews have a divine source or authorization? That's news to me. It seems like most posters on this site, for example, have worldviews that don't have divine claims.

Again, if there is more than one valid morality, then neither set is a valid morality at all if they conflict in any area. The same act cannot be both entirely moral and entirely immoral at the same time. So subjective morality makes no sense or, at best, is a semantic argument.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: idontknow on October 02, 2013, 04:19:35 PM
Nonsense.

Why doesn't Biblegod  just wipe us all out now? No need for flooding, can just take away our oxygen, or give massive earthquakes, or make all the nuclear bombs go off accidentally.

Are you saying that we're less evil today than a few million people thousands of years ago?

Look in the mirror and say, "I am an idiot for believing in this complete nonsense.".

-Nam

Again, I will happily respond to you in substance if you retract your now recurring insult. It is petty and accomplishes nothing. Indeed, it weakens any argument you make by its childishness.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: neopagan on October 02, 2013, 04:19:50 PM
Quote
I apologize for not addressing that point in my previous post. You are mostly correct: the unborn babies and animals seemingly did nothing worthy of death as far as we can tell. As for the types of evil prevalent immediately before the flood, we weren't there, so we can't know firsthand exactly all that it entailed.

They seemingly did nothing worthy of death? Ummm. yeah!  I don't follow your logic there - aside from you possibly injecting the preposterous biblical notion of original sin.

Quote
(As for the plants, trees, bacteria, etc, it does not appear that they perished, so that appears to be a moot point.)

I'm no biologist/ botanist/ apologist, nor do I play one on TV, but I doubt plants being submerged for months on end in hundreds of feet of water let them live.  I watered my cactus too often and it died - my garden was crap this year becasue of all the rain we had.  As for bacteria - I was pretty sure all living things perished... according to your book.  The hookworms, fleas, lice, etc - well, I guess Noah and his family had to each pick a few to infest themsleves with.

Quote
It is likely that if you or I were in God's position, we would have done things differently, is that fair to say we agree on? But we don't have the benefit of omniscience.

Damn right, I'd do (have done) things differently.  For one, I wouldn't spend my days playing hide and seek with my peeps.  There are entire threads here about what a better deity would look like and frankly, I'd pick a random long-term WWGHA member over YHWH any day if we had a deity for a day raffle. 

Quote
I trust his wisdom and judgment to be just and right in the grand scheme of things, even if we don't understand it yet.

Problem is, I do understand his wisdom and judgment and they suck, to use the Latin...  If we don't understand something as big as his justice, then it's his problem... not ours after all these years.  YHWH sounds suspiciously like a tyrannical king - a lot like bible authors would have been quite familiar with when they gathered at the local Canaanite Starbucks to start putting this tale to parchment.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: idontknow on October 02, 2013, 04:30:09 PM
They seemingly did nothing worthy of death? Ummm. yeah!  I don't follow your logic there - aside from you possibly injecting the preposterous biblical notion of original sin.

I'm no biologist/ botanist/ apologist, nor do I play one on TV, but I doubt plants being submerged for months on end in hundreds of feet of water let them live.  I watered my cactus too often and it died - my garden was crap this year becasue of all the rain we had.  As for bacteria - I was pretty sure all living things perished... according to your book.  The hookworms, fleas, lice, etc - well, I guess Noah and his family had to each pick a few to infest themsleves with.

Damn right, I'd do (have done) things differently.  For one, I wouldn't spend my days playing hide and seek with my peeps.  There are entire threads here about what a better deity would look like and frankly, I'd pick a random long-term WWGHA member over YHWH any day if we had a deity for a day raffle. 

Problem is, I do understand his wisdom and judgment and they suck, to use the Latin...  If we don't understand something as big as his justice, then it's his problem... not ours after all these years.  YHWH sounds suspiciously like a tyrannical king - a lot like bible authors would have been quite familiar with when they gathered at the local Canaanite Starbucks to start putting this tale to parchment.

I thought I posted it in this thread too. Maybe I didn't, or maybe you missed it. But a major point of mine is that God's omniscience enabled him to know and foresee what those babies would grow up to do. If the world was indeed wholly evil except for Noah and his family, then it follows that those babies would have grown up and continued the evil of their parents. The flood prevented alternate realities that likely would have been worse than the one that happened with/after the flood.

I'll reread the flood account momentarily, but going from memory I think only the people and air-breathing animals that weren't on the ark died, not the plants, bacteria, or fish. If your argument is we can't know how God might have preserved the plants underwater for 40 days and nights, well just look at my user name again: I don't know how God might have done it. It doesn't concern or worry me how he might have done it. If he created the universe, including all the plants on the earth in the first place, it would be no hard task at all to preserve them underwater for 40 days.

That's nice if you'd do things differently. Everyone would do things differently. Again, your cousin and your barber would do things differently from you too, regardless of whether they're athiests or Christians, if they were in God's shoes. But God is God, and we're not. This is his creation, and he's entitled to do with it what he wishes. If we don't like it, it's usually because we have an improper perspective, again lacking omniscience for one thing.

Your disagreement with his wisdom, judgment, and justice is nothing new. A tyrant would never give his creation free will.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Nam on October 02, 2013, 04:32:52 PM
Nonsense.

Why doesn't Biblegod  just wipe us all out now? No need for flooding, can just take away our oxygen, or give massive earthquakes, or make all the nuclear bombs go off accidentally.

Are you saying that we're less evil today than a few million people thousands of years ago?

Look in the mirror and say, "I am an idiot for believing in this complete nonsense.".

-Nam

Again, I will happily respond to you in substance if you retract your now recurring insult. It is petty and accomplishes nothing. Indeed, it weakens any argument you make by its childishness.

I retract nothing. I say what's on my mind. Don't like it, I don't care.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: neopagan on October 02, 2013, 04:47:22 PM
Quote
I thought I posted it in this thread too. Maybe I didn't, or maybe you missed it. But a major point of mine is that God's omniscience enabled him to know and foresee what those babies would grow up to do.

I've heard it before - from xians on this site and also from Hitler and other genocidal maniacs.

Quote
The flood prevented alternate realities that likely would have been worse than the one that happened with/after the flood.

I think you made that up...  As Nam said, xians today are convinced the world is the worst it has ever been... I mean, homosexuals can marry!

Quote
If your argument is we can't know how God might have preserved the plants underwater for 40 days and nights, well just look at my user name again: I don't know how God might have done it.
...snip..
it would be no hard task at all to preserve them underwater for 40 days.

I was not speculating on how he could preserve them.  Besides, it only rained 40 days and nights.  It allegedly was 150 days from start of rain until the smelly crew hopped off the ark.  We still cannot find all that water, btw.

Quote
That's nice if you'd do things differently. Everyone would do things differently. Again, your cousin and your barber would do things differently from you too, regardless of whether they're athiests or Christians, if they were in God's shoes. But God is God, and we're not.

I don't doubt my cousin, barber, or a WWGHA member would do things differently.  I could care less if they made trees have leaves like I would, or if they had whale genitalia hanging from their branches.  However, I'd trust any of them to generally look out for the best interests of humanity and try to alleviate human suffering and show obvious kindness - not to be a murderous, hide and seek monster like YHWH.

Quote
Your disagreement with his wisdom, judgment, and justice is nothing new. A tyrant would never give his creation free will.

Disagree... YHWH is a tyrant who supposedly gave his creation free will and then punishes the hell out of them for using it (see A and E).
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: idontknow on October 02, 2013, 05:04:20 PM
I retract nothing. I say what's on my mind. Don't like it, I don't care.
You likely have a filter for that mind when you deal with people in person. Unless you have Tourette's. I encourage you to use the same type of etiquette here.

...
I think you made that up...  As Nam said, xians today are convinced the world is the worst it has ever been... I mean, homosexuals can marry!
...
I was not speculating on how he could preserve them.  Besides, it only rained 40 days and nights.  It allegedly was 150 days from start of rain until the smelly crew hopped off the ark.  We still cannot find all that water, btw.

I don't doubt my cousin, barber, or a WWGHA member would do things differently.  I could care less if they made trees have leaves like I would, or if they had whale genitalia hanging from their branches.  However, I'd trust any of them to generally look out for the best interests of humanity and try to alleviate human suffering and show obvious kindness - not to be a murderous, hide and seek monster like YHWH.

Disagree... YHWH is a tyrant who supposedly gave his creation free will and then punishes the hell out of them for using it (see A and E).
I don't think I made it up. And I don't think Christians today are convinced the world is the worst it has ever been. In fact, I don't know a single Christian in my life who thinks that. Of course, I don't know all Christians. But that is definitely not the sense I get at church at all or in any of my other dealings with Christians. (Note that this is not the same thing as Christians thinking the world is worse than it was in the 1950s, for example.)

I apologize for putting words in your mouth on the issue of how God might have preserved the plants underwater. And I apologize for my error in the length of time they would have been underwater after the rain stopped falling (but it would have been just as easy for him to preserve them for 150 days as for 40 days if he can create the universe, after all, and he could have done anything with the water just as easily).

When it comes to looking out for the best interests of humanity, the whole Gospel is just that. Jesus paid the price for all mankind so that we can live forever in heaven simply by believing it. That's the big picture, and there could be nothing more important to humanity than that if it's true. You're focusing on this life and this planet. That's too short a time span.

On your last point, are you saying that the free will was not free at all? Or do you just not like what human beings have done with it?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Azdgari on October 02, 2013, 05:16:46 PM
He's the ultimate arbiter, not us. ...

By what authority are you able to assign God this role?  Doing so makes you the ultimate arbiter.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: neopagan on October 02, 2013, 05:21:12 PM

On your last point, are you saying that the free will was not free at all? Or do you just not like what human beings have done with it?

I am syaing you are the one who said YHWH killed off an entire planet, including unborn children and now tout the free will he gave out.  Maybe you should define what you mean by free will.  I don't see it as "love me or die" any more than I see a rapist giving you free will to either submit quietly to the rape or be killed first before he does his deed.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: idontknow on October 02, 2013, 05:25:51 PM
By what authority are you able to assign God this role?  Doing so makes you the ultimate arbiter.

If he created the universe, I've assigned him nothing. It naturally follows that he's in charge and can do as he pleases. If he doesn't exist, I've still assigned him nothing, because a nonentity can't do anything anyway.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: idontknow on October 02, 2013, 05:28:59 PM
I am saying you are the one who said YHWH killed off an entire planet, including unborn children and now tout the free will he gave out.  Maybe you should define what you mean by free will.  I don't see it as "love me or die" any more than I see a rapist giving you free will to either submit quietly to the rape or be killed first before he does his deed.

God gave Adam and Eve the freedom to decide for themselves whether to refrain from eating the forbidden fruit or whether to eat it in spite of his warnings not to. They chose to eat it. If God didn't give them any meaningful choice, that is, if he permitted them to eat or do anything they wanted with no consequences then that would be a situation of false free will. Without consequences and meaningful choice, there is no real free will, because it simply wouldn't have mattered what they chose to do.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: nogodsforme on October 02, 2013, 05:30:57 PM
One simple question, IDK. Was the bible flood a real, material, global, lots of water and drowned people flood? Or was the bible flood a metaphor, legend, local event that people exaggerated, story-of-Gilgamesh kinda thing?

Because if you truly think that there was a magical flood that killed all humans except one family that survived sealed up with thousands of wild animals on a wooden boat--but that left no physical evidence of ever having happened-- well then we are dealing with a level of credulity that is hard to imagine in the 21st century.

It is best not to try to explain how one family managed to get thousands of animals from across oceans to one location, keep them alive for more than a few days, deal with the water and sanitation issues, return all the animals to their proper habitats while surviving the horrible disease vector that the planet would have become with all the rotting bodies. Just say it was magic, and try not to wonder why god did not just get rid of the evil by magic instead of all the primitive rigamarole of boats, animals and floods.

Besides the scientific and practical impossibility of such a story being real, there is the repellent idea of inflicting massive unnecessary suffering. Yes, I am making a judgement that to drown entire families-- to torture babies, the elderly, pregnant women, toddlers--  repellent.

And so do you, because you could not bring yourself to do it. You are a better person than the god you worship. You can only stomach the idea by making the people into non-humans, evil demons who do not deserve to live. Because that is what Dear Leader said. Kinda like what all dictators do when they want to massacre people.

If god wanted to get rid of people he could just vaporize them painlessly into their next life. Or have the parents of the future evil people never meet in the first place, so they would not ever be born. Or reboot the entire planet with all new non-evil people. Or......use your imagination. But flood the planet and drown all the animals and people? Were even the kittens and baby panda bears evil?

The rabid dog analogy only holds if, instead of killing the dog as quickly and as painlessly as you can, you slowly torture all the planet's dogs to death over several hours, along with their puppies. Because you know that all puppies might become rabid in the future, and you don't want to just give them rabies vaccinations or something like that...way too easy. &)

 
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Nam on October 02, 2013, 05:32:21 PM
I retract nothing. I say what's on my mind. Don't like it, I don't care.
You likely have a filter for that mind when you deal with people in person. Unless you have Tourette's. I encourage you to use the same type of etiquette here.

I do. I have it for online. I don't use it in either venue. I say what's on my mind on purpose, mainly because it pisses people off (which I enjoy), and it gets what they really want to say out. Very effective tool.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: idontknow on October 02, 2013, 06:09:08 PM
I do. I have it for online. I don't use it in either venue. I say what's on my mind on purpose, mainly because it pisses people off (which I enjoy), and it gets what they really want to say out. Very effective tool.
It seems much more likely that you're just annoying people.

One simple question, IDK. Was the bible flood a real, material, global, lots of water and drowned people flood?
Yes.

It is best not to try to explain how...Just say it was magic, and try not to wonder why...
I'm not worried about the how or the why. If it's the same God who created the universe out of nothing, putting some animals on a boat is, well, child's play by comparison to that. Of course, when an omnipotent actor does anything, it's child's play, since he's omnipotent.

Besides the scientific and practical impossibility of such a story being real, there is the repellent idea of inflicting massive unnecessary suffering. Yes, I am making a judgement that to drown entire families-- to torture babies, the elderly, pregnant women, toddlers--  repellent.
You say it was unnecessary. God seems to disagree.

And so do you, because you could not bring yourself to do it. You are a better person than the god you worship. You can only stomach the idea by making the people into non-humans, evil demons who do not deserve to live. Because that is what Dear Leader said. Kinda like what all dictators do when they want to massacre people.
I've done nothing of the sort. I admit I probably would not have done it that way, but I'm not God, and I'm not omniscient. But I've done nothing of the sort with respect to dehumanizing those who died. They were all people, just like you and me. Whether they deserved to live was God's call, since humankind is his creation after all.

If god wanted to get rid of people he could just vaporize them painlessly into their next life. Or have the parents of the future evil people never meet in the first place, so they would not ever be born. Or reboot the entire planet with all new non-evil people. Or......use your imagination. But flood the planet and drown all the animals and people? Were even the kittens and baby panda bears evil?
Yeah, God could have done it a million different ways. But he chose that way. And that was his call. It was his creation after all. And the flood was a reboot with non-evil people: Noah and his family. I don't know why all the air-breathing animals had to die too (except the ones on the ark). You'd have to ask God that, not me.

The rabid dog analogy only holds if, instead of killing the dog as quickly and as painlessly as you can, you slowly torture all the planet's dogs to death over several hours, along with their puppies. Because you know that all puppies might become rabid in the future, and you don't want to just give them rabies vaccinations or something like that...way too easy. &)
Quick, painless, and slow are all relative. It's over and done with now, isn't it? Drowning probably took a few minutes. Seems not too bad for pure evil. In any event, God didn't exempt himself from physical pain and suffering: Jesus - God in human form - suffered incredible pain during the flogging and crucifixion. Why? What purpose did it serve? Couldn't he have deadened his nerves to die relatively peacefully as he hanged there for the sins of all humanity? Couldn't he have chosen a quicker, easier way to die than crucifixion in the first place? Sure, he could have. But he didn't.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Nam on October 02, 2013, 07:50:17 PM
Quote from: idontknowshit
It seems much more likely that you're just annoying people.

If that were true of all people, on this website, I wouldn't have as many comments as I have nor as much +1 in karma either. Don't get me wrong, many here probably agree with you--hell, I could point some of them out myself but just like me: they have methods that work for them, and I have a method that works for me. And it does work.

See, they probably have the same opinion of you as I do but they're holding it back not to be nice but to drag the conversation out. Most of them know you're most likely a Poe or a Fundy, or a Cafeteria Christian, but they like to draw things out, and sometimes I do too but you're just all kinds of idiotic and though it would may be fun to draw it out with you I just can't because you're adding a definition, your definition, to a word that actually has no meaning to you, at all, but to make you feel good about the actions of your god, in your religion. So, to "drag" anything out with you would be pointless. To get you, by my method, to say what you're holding back seems to be better. And you are holding back, and if you stay here: I will get it out of you.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Hatter23 on October 02, 2013, 08:10:54 PM
By what authority are you able to assign God this role?  Doing so makes you the ultimate arbiter.

If he created the universe, I've assigned him nothing. It naturally follows that he's in charge and can do as he pleases. If he doesn't exist, I've still assigned him nothing, because a nonentity can't do anything anyway.

So you are saying might makes right. That is a morally horrible position in my position. As to the creator doing with his creation as he please, that would mean a father would be justified in slowly submerging his son in acid.

After all, his creation.

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Hatter23 on October 02, 2013, 08:32:25 PM
But a major point of mine is that God's omniscience enabled him to know and foresee what those babies would grow up to do.

Yet said foreknowledge could have easily been used to know exactly what was needed to not to have to kill them, but it wasn't used.

You see when you are the creator and have omniscience...there is no freewill.

Your faerie tale is full of holes. We know it is, you are just too simple minded to understand how full of holes it is.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: idontknow on October 02, 2013, 08:56:19 PM
If that were true of all people, on this website, I wouldn't have as many comments as I have nor as much +1 in karma either. Don't get me wrong, many here probably agree with you--hell, I could point some of them out myself but just like me: they have methods that work for them, and I have a method that works for me. And it does work.
You really think you're doing a public service or something, don't you? Lol. How about a cookie?

See, they probably have the same opinion of you as I do but they're holding it back not to be nice but to drag the conversation out. Most of them know you're most likely a Poe or a Fundy, or a Cafeteria Christian, but they like to draw things out, and sometimes I do too but you're just all kinds of idiotic and though it would may be fun to draw it out with you I just can't because you're adding a definition, your definition, to a word that actually has no meaning to you, at all, but to make you feel good about the actions of your god, in your religion. So, to "drag" anything out with you would be pointless. To get you, by my method, to say what you're holding back seems to be better. And you are holding back, and if you stay here: I will get it out of you.
Quite a lot of arrogant and/or ignorant assumptions in that nearly nonsensical rambling. It's absolutely no different than if you were to go on some evangelical forum, and someone there were to call you idiotic based on differences in beliefs and purport to justify such incivility by claiming everyone else is thinking the same thing. It would really behoove you to think before you speak/type instead of just blurting out the first thing that pops into that mind of yours. I find it particularly sad that you apparently get a kick out of insulting other people. Were you a bully in school or something? Or maybe no one ever taught you better? Unlikely. You should know better. Very pathetic indeed.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on October 02, 2013, 08:56:46 PM

God gave Adam and Eve the freedom to decide for themselves whether to refrain from eating the forbidden fruit or whether to eat it in spite of his warnings not to. They chose to eat it. If God didn't give them any meaningful choice, that is, if he permitted them to eat or do anything they wanted with no consequences then that would be a situation of false free will. Without consequences and meaningful choice, there is no real free will, because it simply wouldn't have mattered what they chose to do.

But that's all part of the setup isn't it? The 'God' (thing) you believe in planned for 'Adam and Eve' to 'fall' (i.e. - make the wrong choice) so he could 'carry out his will' (Romans 9) by (supposedly) creating every being as inherently evil (fallen sinners who won't choose God - Romans 3) so he could come down and sacrifice himself, to himself, to act as a loophole (for his elect) for a rule he created in the first place - pure fictional nonsense like the other religions. This theology is inherently flawed. Did Adam and Eve know good from evil (right from wrong) prior to the fall? The bible says they did not. Prior to them eating from "the tree of knowledge of good and evil" they could not have known that it was wrong to "disobey" b/c they had no knowledge of it. This is a blatant contradiction in your theology. In order for A&E to have "fallen" they had to have knowledge that they were sinning/doing wrong, but they did not (according to your bible). So this entire thing completely crumbles when reason is applied (just like every other religion crumbles just the same).

Now, the freewill debate is an entirely different subject but what kind of freewill are you arguing for when your Yahweh (thing) is supposedly sovereign over all "creation"? Does anything happen that does not go according to God's divine plan (according to your theology)? Who resists his will? Does the clay tell the potter what to do (para Romans 9)?[1] The freewill argument really doesn't do anything at all to solve this umpteenth theological problem.
 1. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+9&version=KJV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+9&version=KJV)
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Azdgari on October 02, 2013, 10:02:46 PM
By what authority are you able to assign God this role?  Doing so makes you the ultimate arbiter.

If he created the universe, I've assigned him nothing. It naturally follows that he's in charge and can do as he pleases. If he doesn't exist, I've still assigned him nothing, because a nonentity can't do anything anyway.

This is a claim.  Care to support it?  So far, I've yet to see anyone support this claim logically.  "I created X, therefore I have moral authority over X" appears to me to be axiomatic.  On what basis are we forced to accept this axiom?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Azdgari on October 02, 2013, 10:18:54 PM
So you are saying might makes right. That is a morally horrible position in my position. As to the creator doing with his creation as he please, that would mean a father would be justified in slowly submerging his son in acid.

After all, his creation.

To be fair, he's not saying that might makes right.  He's saying that creation makes right.  Though that's still his moral opinion, which he is foisting on the universe and onto his god.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Hatter23 on October 02, 2013, 10:26:55 PM
So you are saying might makes right. That is a morally horrible position in my position. As to the creator doing with his creation as he please, that would mean a father would be justified in slowly submerging his son in acid.

After all, his creation.

To be fair, he's not saying that might makes right.  He's saying that creation makes right.  Though that's still his moral opinion, which he is foisting on the universe and onto his god.

The "he's in charge" portion of his post(you even bolded it) is the phrase that is about the might.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Hatter23 on October 02, 2013, 10:36:36 PM
However, if you could cure the rabies and show up and teach the dog when it is doing wrong, then killing it is still an immoral act.
Furthermore, think about the story, do you not consider that there would be children under the age of ten? Under 5? Under a month old?
What did the one month olds do to warrant their deaths by drowning?
That is a good point. I never really thought of it that way before. I suppose you're right: God could have "cured" the world of evil prior to flooding it by showing up and teaching it what it was doing wrong. But I would suggest that the world wouldn't have listened.

So after this flood, there was no evil? According to you there was. So all it did was cause a lot of people to suffer and die for NO RESULT. Moreover, according to you this cosmic entity knew that it wasn't going to solve anything.

You know what I call that? A highly immoral act.

Good thing it is just all mythology. Bad thing is people like you who are too dense to understand none of this ever really happened are in far too great supply.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Astreja on October 02, 2013, 11:03:19 PM
Jesus paid the price for all mankind so that we can live forever in heaven simply by believing it.

That's precisely the problem I have with Christianity, IDK.  I've never believed it; in fact, I can't believe it.  Between a god that can't deal with human bad behaviour without resorting to killing something, and his son getting sacrificed and coming back from the dead, and people being judged on what they believe rather than what they do, I'm completely baffled as to why anybody believes it.

I don't even think that the Jesus described in the Gospels was a real person, but if he was, I am 100% positive that never in My 56 years have I done anything that would merit an execution -- His or Mine.  Executing the wrong person for the alleged crime is absurd.  Expecting Me to be grateful for this insane episode of Cosmic Drama Queen Theatre is beyond ludicrous, and this is something up with which I will not put.

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Nam on October 02, 2013, 11:10:38 PM
If that were true of all people, on this website, I wouldn't have as many comments as I have nor as much +1 in karma either. Don't get me wrong, many here probably agree with you--hell, I could point some of them out myself but just like me: they have methods that work for them, and I have a method that works for me. And it does work.
You really think you're doing a public service or something, don't you? Lol. How about a cookie?

See, they probably have the same opinion of you as I do but they're holding it back not to be nice but to drag the conversation out. Most of them know you're most likely a Poe or a Fundy, or a Cafeteria Christian, but they like to draw things out, and sometimes I do too but you're just all kinds of idiotic and though it would may be fun to draw it out with you I just can't because you're adding a definition, your definition, to a word that actually has no meaning to you, at all, but to make you feel good about the actions of your god, in your religion. So, to "drag" anything out with you would be pointless. To get you, by my method, to say what you're holding back seems to be better. And you are holding back, and if you stay here: I will get it out of you.
Quite a lot of arrogant and/or ignorant assumptions in that nearly nonsensical rambling. It's absolutely no different than if you were to go on some evangelical forum, and someone there were to call you idiotic based on differences in beliefs and purport to justify such incivility by claiming everyone else is thinking the same thing. It would really behoove you to think before you speak/type instead of just blurting out the first thing that pops into that mind of yours. I find it particularly sad that you apparently get a kick out of insulting other people. Were you a bully in school or something? Or maybe no one ever taught you better? Unlikely. You should know better. Very pathetic indeed.

We're all idiotic, some of us (you) more so than others (me). I have been a member of Christian forums. 99% of them banned me when they found out I was an atheist, I questioned anything they felt was True™, etc., the other 1% restricted me from basically do anything but read. And despite what you think: I was extremely cordial, why join otherwise?

Here, I can be me. Most other places I am me, as well. Some I tone myself down but only because they give me something I want therefore I do it purely out of selfish reasons, or I am paying for a service.

Example: I am a member of funtrivia.com, and though you don't have to pay to be a member, I do. And I follow their rules as much as possible because they are giving me something I want. I have been a member there (technically) for 10 years.

Another example:

I am a member of imdb.com and I behave there, even in the discussion forums (though sometimes I would very much like to be myself). I love movies. Everyone here who knows me, knows I do. Therefore they give me something I want. Been a member there for 12 years.

Another example:

allpoetry.com. I am myself there, when I am there. I have paid numerous times in the 12 years I've been a member there. Been on staff. Been banned numerous times (one for life that was reduced to 1 year), and yet they love it when I call people an "idiot", it's expected, really.

Not saying saying people here love it but I am only here to argue, and make idiots like you realize they are idiots.

Whether you, or anyone else agrees is irrelevant to me. I really don't care. But everyone here knows all this about me already. They know why I am here.

Why are you?

To show us how wrong we are and how right you are? No. You're only here as an amusement, and in that amusement you're going to say outrageous things, such as "Biblegod  is moral for massacring an entire planet because its a True and righteous god. A good god." and then input your idiotic opinion as FACT, but outline it with your username.

See, the difference between you, and me, is that I'm honest, and you're not.

If you want to call that "arrogance" (that's name-calling by the way), so be it.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: idontknow on October 02, 2013, 11:28:35 PM
In order for A&E to have "fallen" they had to have knowledge that they were sinning/doing wrong, but they did not (according to your bible).
They knew they weren't supposed to eat the forbidden fruit, because they were specifically told not to eat the forbidden fruit.

Does anything happen that does not go according to God's divine plan (according to your theology)?
You're conflating plans, as that word is used in the general sense of preparedness for multiple eventualities, and desires, as that word is used in specifically wanting to bring about an event or result. For example, my home state of California plans for earthquakes. We don't want the to happen, but we know they're going to. So many of us have small emergency stashes of food, water, medical kits, etc. Likewise, you could say God planned for the fall of man even before he created man. But that doesn't mean he wanted the fall of man to occur.

This is a claim.  Care to support it?  So far, I've yet to see anyone support this claim logically.  "I created X, therefore I have moral authority over X" appears to me to be axiomatic.  On what basis are we forced to accept this axiom?
Creation as taught in the Bible means that God created the universe out of nothing. Nothing existed in its place before. He is responsible for everything in the universe in that sense. He made the laws of physics, and he made the laws of morality too, whether we like them or disagree with them or not.

So you are saying might makes right. That is a morally horrible position in my position. As to the creator doing with his creation as he please, that would mean a father would be justified in slowly submerging his son in acid.
To be fair, he's not saying that might makes right.  He's saying that creation makes right.  Though that's still his moral opinion, which he is foisting on the universe and onto his god.
Creation out of nothing means the creator made all the rules, both physical and spiritual/moral/etc. A father didn't make is son out of nothing. (I know, I know, God made Adam out of dust, but he made the dust out of nothing.) So obviously I would never ever go along with the acid analogy.

So after this flood, there was no evil? According to you there was. So all it did was cause a lot of people to suffer and die for NO RESULT. Moreover, according to you this cosmic entity knew that it wasn't going to solve anything.

You know what I call that? A highly immoral act.

Good thing it is just all mythology. Bad thing is people like you who are too dense to understand none of this ever really happened are in far too great supply.
Not exactly. It appears from the story that Noah and his family began sinning almost immediately after the flood again. So even though God had just hit the reset button, it didn't take long for mankind to exercise that free will again in a way that brought evil into the world once again. However, yes, I fully acknowledge that God knew what would happen in advance, as he always does. That doesn't mean the world wasn't better after the flood than it was before the flood.

I would like to remind you that there is no need to border on name calling over mere disagreements, especially since neither of us knows for sure whether it happened or not. I believe it did, you don't believe it did. That certainly doesn't make me [or you] dense. I respect your insights and your logic and your reasoning abilities. Let's not be uncivil. Please and thank you.

That's precisely the problem I have with Christianity, IDK.  I've never believed it; in fact, I can't believe it.  Between a god that can't deal with human bad behaviour without resorting to killing something, and his son getting sacrificed and coming back from the dead, and people being judged on what they believe rather than what they do, I'm completely baffled as to why anybody believes it.

I don't even think that the Jesus described in the Gospels was a real person, but if he was, I am 100% positive that never in My 56 years have I done anything that would merit an execution -- His or Mine.  Executing the wrong person for the alleged crime is absurd.  Expecting Me to be grateful for this insane episode of Cosmic Drama Queen Theatre is beyond ludicrous, and this is something up with which I will not put.
I think you could easily believe it if you wanted to. Belief is a choice, even when it's a passive choice. I believe my mom loves me, even when she yells at me. And we aren't judged solely by our beliefs. That is merely the first hurdle. Our acts will be judged too.

But wouldn't you say humankind in general has done things worthy of death? Jesus wasn't just paying for your sins and my sins, even if our sins appear relatively less heinous than those of mass murderers, for example. He was also paying for the sins of those mass murderers and every other sin every committed. So I don't think you need to construe his crucifixion so individually. Yes, it was for you, but not only for you.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: idontknow on October 02, 2013, 11:42:10 PM
Not saying saying people here love it but I am only here to argue, and make idiots like you realize they are idiots.
Unfortunately, you'll be on a fool's errand for a while then, because I am not an idiot.

Whether you, or anyone else agrees is irrelevant to me. I really don't care. But everyone here knows all this about me already. They know why I am here.
Typically, it is against the terms and conditions of use of forums to engage in personal attacks such as using insults. Again, I can handle whatever names you want to call me online or in person, as I don't have an excitable personality, but if I don't tell you how rude your words are then you're probably going to be more likely to continue using them towards other people with increasing frequency and/or vulgarity.

Why are you?
For discussion.

To show us how wrong we are and how right you are? No. You're only here as an amusement, and in that amusement you're going to say outrageous things, such as "Biblegod  is moral for massacring an entire planet because its a True and righteous god. A good god." and then input your idiotic opinion as FACT, but outline it with your username.
Nope. See above.

See, the difference between you, and me, is that I'm honest, and you're not.
I never said you were dishonest. That would imply you knew I wasn't an idiot and called me one anyway ;)
I am also honest.

If you want to call that "arrogance" (that's name-calling by the way), so be it.
I'm not calling you an arrogant person. I'm saying you made assumptions in an arrogant manner in your previous post, and you appear to have done so again in this post by assuming I am here to show you how wrong you are and how right I am and blah blah blah.

As for me, I typically use Google+ for most of my online discussions, disagreements, and arguments. Many of them are political (I am a libertarian), and many of them are tech related (I have an S4 and an iPad Mini, so I'm neither a fanboy nor a hater of either Apple or Android). But typically after a few civilized comments back and forth voicing my displeasure, I am able to add the person with whom I was disagreeing to my circles, and they add me back, and we chalk it all up and remain in friendly contact.

Here, I think the same thing is likely and possible with you. You can make it your life's ambition to get under my skin. It doesn't matter to me. I'll still like you and tell you when I think you're wrong and why if I'm able. (By the way, if you're on Google+ and want to join each other's circles, let me know.) But I'll always try to do so respectfully and civilly. So I simply encourage you to do the same with me and everyone else on this site.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Azdgari on October 03, 2013, 12:02:59 AM
This is a claim.  Care to support it?  So far, I've yet to see anyone support this claim logically.  "I created X, therefore I have moral authority over X" appears to me to be axiomatic.  On what basis are we forced to accept this axiom?
Creation as taught in the Bible means that God created the universe out of nothing. Nothing existed in its place before. He is responsible for everything in the universe in that sense. He made the laws of physics, and he made the laws of morality too, whether we like them or disagree with them or not.
Before we get into this - you are conflating two senses of the word "law", that of descriptive and prescriptive.  Was this an intentional slight of hand, or just an error in speaking?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Astreja on October 03, 2013, 12:09:19 AM
I think you could easily believe it if you wanted to. Belief is a choice, even when it's a passive choice.

Believe if I wanted to?  Highly unlikely, IDK.  I've tried attending an assortment of religious groups over the years, but I've never experienced a moment in which I uncritically just believed what I was being told.  My brain simply doesn't work that way.

Quote
But wouldn't you say humankind in general has done things worthy of death?

The average person in the street?  No.  Absolutely not.  A comparative handful of people, perhaps -- Serial killers, warlords and the like.  I also think that any god worthy of the name would be able to come up with a more creative solution to deal with that troublesome handful more effectively.

Quote
So I don't think you need to construe his crucifixion so individually. Yes, it was for you, but not only for you.

How can I not take it personally?  Allegedly I am to be condemned for not being able to believe it.  And even if I don't personally warrant anything more than a kick in the shins, I'm not going to stand idly by and let someone else suffer the kick on My behalf.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Nam on October 03, 2013, 08:37:11 AM
Quote from: idontknowshit
Typically, it is against the terms and conditions of use of forums to engage in personal attacks such as using insults. Again, I can handle whatever names you want to call me online or in person, as I don't have an excitable personality, but if I don't tell you how rude your words are then you're probably going to be more likely to continue using them towards other people with increasing frequency and/or vulgarity.

You, and people like you, personally attack us with your idiocy of what is moral and what isn't. The vulgar statements you make using your religion, god, scripture to validate such idiocy makes me calling people like you an idiot when you spout out such shit minuscule in comparison.

So if I get in trouble for it: I DON'T CARE!

idiot.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: naemhni on October 03, 2013, 08:48:57 AM
Quote from: idontknowshit
Typically, it is against the terms and conditions of use of forums to engage in personal attacks such as using insults. Again, I can handle whatever names you want to call me online or in person, as I don't have an excitable personality, but if I don't tell you how rude your words are then you're probably going to be more likely to continue using them towards other people with increasing frequency and/or vulgarity.

You, and people like you, personally attack us with your idiocy of what is moral and what isn't. The vulgar statements you make using your religion, god, scripture to validate such idiocy makes me calling people like you an idiot when you spout out such shit minuscule in comparison.

So if I get in trouble for it: I DON'T CARE!

idiot.

-Nam

Nam, you've been spoken to about this before.  Dial it down.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Nam on October 03, 2013, 08:52:20 AM
I will, once this guy stops saying idiotic things.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Hatter23 on October 03, 2013, 09:07:19 AM
So you are saying might makes right. That is a morally horrible position in my position. As to the creator doing with his creation as he please, that would mean a father would be justified in slowly submerging his son in acid.
Creation out of nothing means the creator made all the rules, both physical and spiritual/moral/etc. A father didn't make is son out of nothing. (I know, I know, God made Adam out of dust, but he made the dust out of nothing.) So obviously I would never ever go along with the acid analogy.


Of course you wouldn't. It exposes your line of thinking for what it is: Vile.



So after this flood, there was no evil? According to you there was. So all it did was cause a lot of people to suffer and die for NO RESULT. Moreover, according to you this cosmic entity knew that it wasn't going to solve anything.

You know what I call that? A highly immoral act.

Good thing it is just all mythology. Bad thing is people like you who are too dense to understand none of this ever really happened are in far too great supply.


Not exactly. It appears from the story that Noah and his family began sinning almost immediately after the flood again. So even though God had just hit the reset button, it didn't take long for mankind to exercise that free will again in a way that brought evil into the world once again. However, yes, I fully acknowledge that God knew what would happen in advance, as he always does. That doesn't mean the world wasn't better after the flood than it was before the flood.




Goal of vast quantity of death, including of innocents: to remove sin
After vast quantity of deaths: sin

So, no. Your reasoning is invalid.



I would like to remind you that there is no need to border on name calling over mere disagreements, especially since neither of us knows for sure whether it happened or not. I believe it did, you don't believe it did. That certainly doesn't make me [or you] dense. I respect your insights and your logic and your reasoning abilities. Let's not be uncivil. Please and thank you.


No, I do know for "sure" that it didn't happen, in the same level of surety that wizards didn't cast spells during the battle of Verdun or the Greek gods didn't participate in the Trojan war. Because it is absurd.

The claims are not equal as you attempt to portray them as.

My belief is supported by vast quantities of evidence, physics, all of history, archeology, biology, hydrodynamics, geology, and every physical science....and your denies all of these based on a tale in a bronze age book of fables that happens to be currently popular....no that really does make you dense, or delusional. One or the other.

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: naemhni on October 03, 2013, 09:39:00 AM
I will, once this guy stops saying idiotic things.

You also know better than to question moderator instructions in-thread.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Hatter23 on October 03, 2013, 11:14:28 AM

Not exactly. It appears from the story that Noah and his family began sinning almost immediately after the flood again. So even though God had just hit the reset button, it didn't take long for mankind to exercise that free will again in a way that brought evil into the world once again. However, yes, I fully acknowledge that God knew what would happen in advance, as he always does. That doesn't mean the world wasn't better after the flood than it was before the flood.




Goal of vast quantity of death, including of innocents: to remove sin
After vast quantity of deaths: sin

So, no. Your reasoning is invalid.


Oh, and before you try to play "but less sin" again. Massacring most of the worlds population is, in my not so humble opinion, far more heinous an act than pretty much anything that could have been going on the world you would have called 'sin' at the time.



Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 03, 2013, 11:20:37 AM

Not exactly. It appears from the story that Noah and his family began sinning almost immediately after the flood again. So even though God had just hit the reset button, it didn't take long for mankind to exercise that free will again in a way that brought evil into the world once again. However, yes, I fully acknowledge that God knew what would happen in advance, as he always does. That doesn't mean the world wasn't better after the flood than it was before the flood.

Have you ever wondered how much incest would be required after the flood?

I'm talking about full on abominations being born, with like 4 arms and no eyes.
Not to mention the lack of land based plants, thus no herbivores, and ending up with no biosphere on land.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Jag on October 03, 2013, 11:57:16 AM
^^^You must have missed the "well I don't claim to KNOW anything and my theology is based on what the bible says, which includes none of the nonsense I'm about to offer as an answer BUT -  God could have just wrapped up the land plants in magic bubble wrap to save them because the bible doesn't address this and I'm left to make up details that fit the narrative" reply already offered up by IDK.

Here's a big piece of it: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,24626.msg572134.html#msg572134

There's other parts scattered around this thread, and a few others contain similar gems.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 03, 2013, 12:07:30 PM
^^^You must have missed the "well I don't claim to KNOW anything and my theology is based on what the bible says, which includes none of the nonsense I'm about to offer as an answer BUT -  God could have just wrapped up the land plants in magic bubble wrap to save them because the bible doesn't address this and I'm left to make up details that fit the narrative" reply already offered up by IDK.

Here's a big piece of it: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,24626.msg572134.html#msg572134

There's other parts scattered around this thread, and a few others contain similar gems.

Ahhh, i see now.
So this guy is one of those "Magic, fuckyeah" guys?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Astreja on October 03, 2013, 12:27:34 PM
Ahhh, i see now.
So this guy is one of those "Magic, fuckyeah" guys?

Because science based on the real world is messy and confusing and subject to change as new data arrives.  "Magic, fuckyeah" neatly settles the issue once and for all (or at least, while one continues to believe it).
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: neopagan on October 03, 2013, 12:28:00 PM
Yep, plants can magically be submerged under hundreds of feet of water for 40 days (IDK's #) to 150 days (bible #) and come out unscathed... people, not so much.

And then the sinnin' starts all over. 
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Hatter23 on October 03, 2013, 12:37:38 PM
Yep, plants can magically be submerged under hundreds of feet of water for 40 days (IDK's #) to 150 days (bible #) and come out unscathed... people, not so much.

And then the sinnin' starts all over.
Oh and you forgot, the whole issue with the fact that brackish water would have salted all the soil. So even if they brought a garden with them....you are still talking mass extinction event that would have needed at least 50,000 years to have recovered from



Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: neopagan on October 03, 2013, 12:47:08 PM
^^^^good point, Hatter....  there is only so much theistic BS I can recount in a post before the methane makes me wobbly, and I fall off my soapbox and get trampled by a sacred cow
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Nam on October 03, 2013, 02:12:26 PM
If Biblegod  drowned the entire world, how did they breathe? Oxygen is produced by plants, and trees, no? Did the oxygen before the flood last until it was all over?

-Nam
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: neopagan on October 03, 2013, 02:21:06 PM
If Biblegod  drowned the entire world, how did they breathe? Oxygen is produced by plants, and trees, no? Did the oxygen before the flood last until it was all over?

-Nam

Like Jag said, magic bubble wrap.

Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: nogodsforme on October 03, 2013, 06:21:47 PM
It all has to be magic. Case closed. Shut up and believe. You can if you try hard enough. Just like IDK could believe Hinduism or Scientology or Rastafarianism if he tried hard enough.

Honestly, if there had been a massive global flood with the extinction of all air-breathing organisms at any time in earth's history, it would be the first thing every biology and geology student learned, starting with the first day of class. Week one would be "The Flood and how it shaped our earth". The rest of the term would be spent examining all the thousands of pieces of evidence.

We know what floods look like and what they leave behind. There would be no way to miss the evidence. It would be all over the place. Nobody would have any doubt. How come university departments don't do this? How come I never learned about any of the massive amounts of flood evidence in any class I ever took?

Why do all the facts-- DNA, fossils, glaciers, existence of civilizations that never noticed the global flood, geology, botany, palentology, biogeography-- tell an entirely different story from what it says in the bible? Why did god hide all the evidence of the global flood? It's like he wants us to believe just any old thing. &)

Noah made the ark enormous and really tight to keep all the flood water out.  It was basically a wooden submarine. But we are not supposed to ask how the animals and humans breathed in a box sealed up tight like that, with no power or ventilation system. Full of methane gas. And really dark, unless you wanted to light a fire and create a giant exploding floating methane bomb. It would have been a giant floating coffin in a few days. :o

We are not supposed to ask why people didn't keep making awesome boats made like that, if the ark worked so well.  You would think that everyone would have just gotten together whipped up another ark. When floods came again, the people just died. I guess folks conveniently forgot how to build arks. Or they were too busy inventing new evil sins. :angel:

And we are not supposed to ask why the magic sin-removing flood did not even work as it was supposed to, since the evil snapped right back in place like yoga pants on a T-Rex. We would be willing to believe something like that had happened, if there was some physical sign that something like that had happened. :P
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Nam on October 03, 2013, 07:57:53 PM
^it's a conspiracy.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Anfauglir on October 04, 2013, 03:31:00 AM
And so do you, because you could not bring yourself to do it. You are a better person than the god you worship. You can only stomach the idea by making the people into non-humans, evil demons who do not deserve to live. Because that is what Dear Leader said. Kinda like what all dictators do when they want to massacre people.
I've done nothing of the sort. I admit I probably would not have done it that way, but I'm not God, and I'm not omniscient. But I've done nothing of the sort with respect to dehumanizing those who died. They were all people, just like you and me. Whether they deserved to live was God's call, since humankind is his creation after all.

But you have done, and continue to do so, every day when you refrain from asking god to explain exactly why he did what he did.  By dismissing it with "oh, I'm sure he had his reasons" trivialises every death of every man, woman, child, toddler and baby that died in that flood.  You dehumanise them whenever you just accept that it was okay for "them" to die.

For a Christian, you sure seem to display a lack of compassion.  Occasionally saying "oooh, they were all real people you know" is not compassion - its lip-service.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Mrjason on October 04, 2013, 04:36:57 AM
nogodsforme, I totally agree.

There are so many questions relating to the flood story and no real answers. hell if people can stow away on ships, lorries and planes even now with us using all our tech to try and catch them why on earth were there no "unofficial" human passangers on the ark?

Why did noone else build a boat when they saw what Noah was upto etc
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: screwtape on October 04, 2013, 08:50:07 AM
Why did noone else build a boat when they saw what Noah was upto etc

evil is stupid.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: jdawg70 on October 04, 2013, 09:26:30 AM
evil is stupid.
Ahem.
(http://www.robertjschwalb.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/lord_dark_helment_real.jpg)
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 04, 2013, 09:29:03 AM
His schwartz is almost as big as mine.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: neopagan on October 04, 2013, 09:41:53 AM
Why did noone else build a boat when they saw what Noah was upto etc

Noah had deforested the entire area of all the gopherwood, so the sinners had sand and rocks... never worked for boats.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Mrjason on October 04, 2013, 09:50:42 AM
Why did noone else build a boat when they saw what Noah was upto etc

Noah had deforested the entire area of all the gopherwood, so the sinners had sand and rocks... never worked for boats.

With a bunch of rocks and their evil ways why not just boatjack noah or batter him to death with said rocks.

Although evil is stupid evil is evil too.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 04, 2013, 09:53:45 AM
With a bunch of rocks and their evil ways why not just boatjack noah or batter him to death with said rocks.

Although evil is stupid evil is evil too.

Even evil has standards...
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on October 04, 2013, 03:01:03 PM
They knew they weren't supposed to eat the forbidden fruit, because they were specifically told not to eat the forbidden fruit.

That doesn't deal with the objection I raised. It's a flat out contradiction. According to the bible, they didn't know it was wrong (b/c they didn't know good/evil). Is this really that difficult to see? It's like punishing a child for spilling your drink even though you told him not to and you knew that he didn't know it was wrong. If there's no way of knowing the consequences (due to complete lack of knowledge) it is irrational to hold the subject accountable. Do you punish a toddler if he scratches your car or breaks the TV (even if you told him not to)? It's absurd (but I'm not surprised if you refuse to see that). This whole theology is complete nonsense (just like all the other theologies created by men). In fact, Paul even admits this (of sorts) in 1 Corinthians 1. Did you not know this? Why try to reason about something that is blatantly and clearly irrational? Just admit that your theology is irrational and then we can talk about why you are holding irrational beliefs.

You're conflating plans, as that word is used in the general sense of preparedness for multiple eventualities, and desires, as that word is used in specifically wanting to bring about an event or result. For example, my home state of California plans for earthquakes. We don't want the to happen, but we know they're going to. So many of us have small emergency stashes of food, water, medical kits, etc. Likewise, you could say God planned for the fall of man even before he created man. But that doesn't mean he wanted the fall of man to occur.

Except you've left out at least two things from this picture. 1. Your alleged 'God' is omnimax, and could very easily have avoided the "earthquake" (a point I hinted at earlier regarding "the fall" and God's alleged "plan", and 2) The bible quite specifically depicts a very different picture (one where he is 'in control' of creation - as a potter controls his pottery - nothing happens that does not go according to his will, etc). So it seems you are making up your own theology to avoid the inherent irrational nature of your bible. This is exactly what Muslims, Mormon, JWs, and Hindus try to do when we debate with them too, you know. 

Creation as taught in the Bible means that God created the universe out of nothing. Nothing existed in its place before.

So God did not exist before God existed? LOL. This is another critical flaw in this line of thinking. Is God not 'something'? Do you not believe that God created man "in his image" and "after his own likeness"? Then, according to your own theology, we didn't come from nothing. We came from something (namely God). So you too don't believe in 'nothing', and never did. You believe there always was something. You're just choosing to call it 'God' (which doesn't refer to anything). But why call it that? Ah yes, b/c you assumed the bible is 'the Word of God'. But why should anyone think that? The bible is riddled with contradiction, errors, and falsities (which can be found easily with any quick Google search). Bart Ehrman is a bible scholar who was once an evangelical. He discovered these problems and actually decided to get honest about them (unlike most Christians who ignore them or try to SPIN/rationalize them away to save face). It's time to take a good look at the other side (without fear of the social consequences). It's time to put the pursuit of truth above emotional response or consequence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHJE7cetkB4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHJE7cetkB4)




Belief is a choice, even when it's a passive choice.

NO, belief is NOT a choice. You can't choose to genuinely believe in magic pink unicorns. Belief happens when one is convinced (by good or bad reasons). It is not a choice. If someone steals your car you can't choose to believe it was not stolen (b/c you've already been convinced it was stolen). Please stop listening to Paul, and perhaps your pastor, who keep lying to you about this. It's simply not true.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Hatter23 on October 04, 2013, 05:56:58 PM
If Biblegod  drowned the entire world, how did they breathe? Oxygen is produced by plants, and trees, no? Did the oxygen before the flood last until it was all over?

-Nam

Doesn't phytoplankton produce the majority of oxygen?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 04, 2013, 06:28:12 PM

Creation as taught in the Bible means that God created the universe out of nothing. Nothing existed in its place before.

This is not true. It is an example of you seeing what you want to see. The bible does not say god created the universe from nothing. See my thread- in the beginning was what?

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25495.0.html
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Nam on October 04, 2013, 06:31:18 PM
If Biblegod  drowned the entire world, how did they breathe? Oxygen is produced by plants, and trees, no? Did the oxygen before the flood last until it was all over?

-Nam

Doesn't phytoplankton produce the majority of oxygen?

I don't know, not a science geek.

;)

Hell, Christians probably think Biblegod's farts produce oxygen.

-Nam
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Foxy Freedom on October 04, 2013, 07:33:16 PM
Jesus wasn't just paying for your sins and my sins, even if our sins appear relatively less heinous than those of mass murderers, for example. He was also paying for the sins of those mass murderers and every other sin every committed.

That is why Christianity is immoral.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: nogodsforme on October 04, 2013, 07:54:11 PM
I don't get why Jesus is supposed to be so special.  Soldiers, police, firefighters, risk death all the time. Pilots and flight attendants are trained to risk their lives to save their passengers. Teachers have died protecting their students.  There are women who died giving birth after more than three days of labor. Prisoners in concentration camps have endured months of suffering and have sacrificed themselves so others could live.

So, lots of people have sacrificed their lives for others, knowing that they would not be brought back to life. Many parents would give their lives to save their kids. I know I would be willing to face death to save my child-- or anyone's child. Give me the chance to save everyone on the planet by being tortured for three days and then dying? I'd sign right up. I am willing to bet that most people on earth would give their lives for far less than saving the souls of all humankind. 

So, why is Jesus special again? :?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on October 05, 2013, 01:02:29 AM
Jesus wasn't just paying for your sins and my sins, even if our sins appear relatively less heinous than those of mass murderers, for example. He was also paying for the sins of those mass murderers and every other sin every committed. So I don't think you need to construe his crucifixion so individually. Yes, it was for you, but not only for you.


So you allegedly have this all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good, God thing that decides to make a creation (knowing in advance what will happen) just so it can come down bodily and sacrifice itself, to itself, to act as a "payment" for a rule which it created for us in the first place. And this makes sense...how? If your theology is correct then this Jesus/God thing itself is responsible for the actions of it's creation (indeed it's an accomplice and has no room to blame us for anything). Fortunately, (just like the other religions) this alleged deity Yahweh thing looks quite clearly to be fiction and so there is no real reason to take the story seriously anyways.


Btw, how can you call a God "good" who could allow a person to live a life of monstrous mass murder (such as Hitler), and then "repent" at the last minute only to be allowed entrance into paradise? Why would you even worship an idea like this? You can't have a deity that is all-just and all-merciful (just like you can't have a deity that is changeless but changes it's mind). Alleged deities with contradictory characteristics like this simply do not exist.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: median on October 05, 2013, 01:08:02 AM
I don't get why Jesus is supposed to be so special.  Soldiers, police, firefighters, risk death all the time. Pilots and flight attendants are trained to risk their lives to save their passengers. Teachers have died protecting their students.  There are women who died giving birth after more than three days of labor. Prisoners in concentration camps have endured months of suffering and have sacrificed themselves so others could live.

So, lots of people have sacrificed their lives for others, knowing that they would not be brought back to life. Many parents would give their lives to save their kids. I know I would be willing to face death to save my child-- or anyone's child. Give me the chance to save everyone on the planet by being tortured for three days and then dying? I'd sign right up. I am willing to bet that most people on earth would give their lives for far less than saving the souls of all humankind. 

So, why is Jesus special again? :?


100% spot on. This Jesus concept didn't 'sacrifice' anything. It was supposed to be "God in flesh" and got to come back to life (supposedly) after three days - and even before that he wasn't really dead. It says he went to hell. WTF? The more I read the story the more it sounds like fiction, fiction, fiction (just like the other religions).
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Hatter23 on October 05, 2013, 06:49:37 AM


I don't know, not a science geek.



That's what I feel every time someone starts to discuss high physics. Um quantum this and Dark matter that. I just don't get it. I am also very suspicious of physics that isn't immediately demonstrable. Dark Matter seems eerily similar to Ether theory to me. A particle of the gaps.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 05, 2013, 07:33:40 AM
If Biblegod  drowned the entire world, how did they breathe? Oxygen is produced by plants, and trees, no? Did the oxygen before the flood last until it was all over?

-Nam

Doesn't phytoplankton produce the majority of oxygen?

I do recall this being true, as there is a ridiculous amount of the little plants.
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: Nam on October 05, 2013, 08:04:14 AM


I don't know, not a science geek.



That's what I feel every time someone starts to discuss high physics. Um quantum this and Dark matter that. I just don't get it. I am also very suspicious of physics that isn't immediately demonstrable. Dark Matter seems eerily similar to Ether theory to me. A particle of the gaps.


Geek (cough) geek.

;)

-Nam
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: William on October 06, 2013, 08:08:58 AM
Many parents would give their lives to save their kids. I know I would be willing to face death to save my child-- or anyone's child.

The difference is that with Jesus it was far more serious business - God's feelings where really badly hurt when that piece of fruit went missing ....  :o
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 06, 2013, 08:10:48 AM
Many parents would give their lives to save their kids. I know I would be willing to face death to save my child-- or anyone's child.

The difference is that with Jesus it was far more serious business - God's feelings where really badly hurt when that piece of fruit went missing ....  :o

In fact, that fruit was the cause of all bad...9_6
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: nogodsforme on October 06, 2013, 12:49:44 PM
Hitler and Stalin and Mao--each of whom inflicted untold suffering on millions of people-- can accept Jesus at the last minute and gain entry into heaven. But peace-niks like Gandhi, Ang San Suu Kyi, and the Dalai Lama all go to hell, because they were not Christians.....WTF?
Title: Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
Post by: ThatZenoGuy on October 06, 2013, 11:34:07 PM
Hitler and Stalin and Mao--each of whom inflicted untold suffering on millions of people-- can accept Jesus at the last minute and gain entry into heaven. But peace-niks like Gandhi, Ang San Suu Kyi, and the Dalai Lama all go to hell, because they were not Christians.....WTF?

The redemption card in all its glory.