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Main Discussion Zone => General Religious Discussion => Topic started by: Quesi on December 19, 2012, 10:09:26 AM

Title: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: Quesi on December 19, 2012, 10:09:26 AM
You know, right now, my life is all about the life of a 6 year old.   Ballet classes.  Chess classes.  Piano recitals.  Playdates and birthday parties and Mo Willems books.  Assurances that she doesn’t need to decide this week whether she is going to be an artist or an entomologist or a veterinarian when she grows up.  There is time to decide.  I love listening to her tell me about her interpretation of the world, and the events that she observes.  I love her questions.  It is such a wonderful age, full of such joy and discovery, and although they share so many common characteristics, 6 year olds have such clearly defined personalities. 

I keep watching the videos of interviews with the parents of the children, all ages 6 and 7,  who were killed in the shooting.  The little artist who loved the sea, the little girl whose father said she was the family’s little CEO, the mischievous little boy, the little boy who wanted to know how old he had to be to sing on stage, the little girl who loved horses, whose parents promised her a pony for her 10th birthday.  I don’t know why I do it, but I keep watching these videos.  And I weep. 

I weep because these innocent lives were lost, and these children will never reach their dreams.  They will never fulfill their potentials.   They are gone. 

You Shin, believe that they are in heaven.  Their parents believe that they are in heaven.  Holding hands with their friends.  Under the loving supervision of Jesus and their principal and their beloved teachers.  Looking down lovingly on their families.

These parents say that they believe this.  Then why are they crying?  Why are they mourning?  Shouldn’t they be celebrating?  So many of the reporters interviewing the parents believe this too.  Why are they fighting back tears?  The first responders, who set up a triage station in hopes of saving some lives.  Why aren’t they happy?  These kids could have lived a few more years.  They could have sinned.  They could have lost their chance at an eternity in paradise.  Why aren’t all these believers happy?

According to you Shin, these innocent little 6 and 7 year olds get a free ticket to heaven.  If they had lived a few more years, they most certainly would have had the opportunity to sin, and they might have failed the audition to get into heaven and they would have been condemned to death or hell or whatever you think happens to those of us who don’t pass your god’s tests.

So why aren’t you celebrating, Shin? I know you find the question of whether stuff is predestined very interesting.  But whether they were saved by these brutal murders, or whether they really had no potential to lose because it was their destiny to die so young, isn’t it wonderful that they are guaranteed an ETERNITY of wonderfulness?

I hear the parents, talking about their dead children as angels in heaven, and the parents are so clearly  suffering.  Really suffering.  If they really believed, wouldn’t they be celebrating?  I can’t help but feel that on some level, they really know it is not true.  Their children are gone.  Gone.  Gone forever.  They are not holding hands on clouds and taking turns sitting in Jesus’s throne.  Their lives are over, and their parents know it.  Their parents mourn the ponies they will never ride and the paintings they will never paint and the songs that they will never sing and the footprints they will never again leave on a beach.  I mourn with them.  I mourn because I feel with every inch of my being, that these kids were should have experienced these things.  And so much more.   

Like every parent, I imagine how I would feel if I were the parent of one of these children.  I try to imagine how I would feel as me.  And then I try to imagine how I would feel if I were a believer.  I try to imagine a parallel situation.   And this is the best that I can do. 

I imagine, that 20 years from now, my beautiful daughter has fulfilled her life’s dream, and is selected to be part of a small, elite crew, whose mission is to colonize Mars.   I will never see her again.  I will not dance at her wedding.  I will not snuggle my future grandchildren, and spoil them with grandmotherly gifts.  I will be cheated out of the future that I had imagined.  But my daughter will be happy.

How would I feel?  Sure, there would be nights that I might privately cry a little bit out of selfishness, perhaps a little resentful about the fact that I did not get to enjoy the parts of my daughter’s life that I felt entitled to enjoy.  But mostly, I would be happy.  Happy for her.  Proud.  There is nothing I want more than my daughter’s happiness.   And if I believed that she was happy, fulfilled, living out her potential, that joy would far outweigh my selfish feelings of being cheated out of anticipated milestones. 

I would miss her.  But if she were well, if she were happy, I would celebrate.  Her joy, her well-being, would outweigh my selfish feelings of not having her near me. 

If these parents really really really believe that their kids hit the jackpot, skipped the audition and went straight to paradise for all of eternity, why are they not celebrating?

I can’t help but feel that deep down, as much as they want to believe, they know it is not true.
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: Nick on December 19, 2012, 10:20:30 AM
I agree with your thoughts.  I was trying to remember how I would have thought about all of this if I were still Catholic?  Religion is more of a security blanket I think.  Its how people deal with such horror like this.  But you are right...deep inside they have to be questioning...even if just for a moment.  They have to know that it might not be real which causes the pain to come to the surface.

Still can't even begin to imagine what a parent would feel having something likethis happen.  Anger, sadness, despair all rolled together.
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: Nam on December 19, 2012, 01:46:59 PM
Look how people act at funerals. Even if the person was a really bad person, they are up in Heaven looking down. Except of course the guy who did the shooting the victims here. He's burning in hell they can take comfort in that.

I wonder if anyone is praying for the father/brother who lost their mother?wife and son/brother in this tragedy? Or are they praying they burn in hell, too?

-Nam
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: Jag on December 19, 2012, 02:11:45 PM
My aunt just died on Monday morning from heart failure. I expect all the things Quesi talked about in the OP to be talked about at the funeral and after. And I'll bite my tongue the entire time, as ambushing family members while they are grieving is inappropriate and rude.

Quesi, thank you. As usual, your eloquence and personal touches made a beautiful read. You have a knack for saying what I'm thinking far better than I am able to.

Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: Quesi on December 19, 2012, 02:15:51 PM
Thank you Jag.  I'm sorry about the loss of your aunt.  I know nothing about her, or her life, or her age, but it is my hope that the funeral and after events are also be filled with stories of her accomplishments, and the ways in which she touched the lives of the people around her.   
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: jetson on December 19, 2012, 02:18:57 PM
Great thoughts Quesi, and poignant.

It must be very difficult to face reality for so many people.  I haven't had that particular baggage in my life, really.  I've never felt convinced about any after life, or eternal torture.  Only in my later years though, have I felt the true freedom of knowing that I don't have to pretend anymore.  I don't have to pay respect to something that is so demonstrably missing, in order to appease myself.

As much as it would hurt me deeply to lose a child in such a horrific way, I would never feel compelled to think he is possibly better off.
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: none on December 19, 2012, 02:58:54 PM
You know, right now, my life is all about the life of a 6 year old.   Ballet classes.  Chess classes.  Piano recitals.  Playdates and birthday parties and Mo Willems books.  Assurances that she doesn’t need to decide this week whether she is going to be an artist or an entomologist or a veterinarian when she grows up.  There is time to decide.  I love listening to her tell me about her interpretation of the world, and the events that she observes.  I love her questions.  It is such a wonderful age, full of such joy and discovery, and although they share so many common characteristics, 6 year olds have such clearly defined personalities. 

I keep watching the videos of interviews with the parents of the children, all ages 6 and 7,  who were killed in the shooting.  The little artist who loved the sea, the little girl whose father said she was the family’s little CEO, the mischievous little boy, the little boy who wanted to know how old he had to be to sing on stage, the little girl who loved horses, whose parents promised her a pony for her 10th birthday.  I don’t know why I do it, but I keep watching these videos.  And I weep. 

I weep because these innocent lives were lost, and these children will never reach their dreams.  They will never fulfill their potentials.   They are gone. 
...
yep, they are dead.
they reached their potential.
there is nothing logical or reasonable which is comforting to say they didn't.
you got priorities.
you know what they are.
if you need any help ask, rejection is stressful and take care of that which you have.
I don't feel it is necessary to address anything else in the OP.
if I must acknowledge _________ .
none.
I didn't prevent it.
I could have given the proper allocation of resources, but I didn't have awareness of those resources until now.
now that I am aware of those resources I need to use them to prevent another murder.
yes, I shed tears I grieve and that grief is motivating.
some people will kill themselves over this issue others will not.
I don't want to lose those people, they are vitally important and they have a message to share and that message should be "murder is wrong and suicide is wrong" the method they choose to express that message and enforce it doesn't need to be politicized in to a different message.
it is plain and simple "murder is wrong and suicide is wrong." if they can't do it I will do it because I hate death and death is not mandatory.
if this is offensive then I apologize but this is they way I see it.
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 19, 2012, 03:15:08 PM
Shouldn’t they be celebrating?

So why aren’t you celebrating, Shin?
Death is no cause for celebration. Under any circumstance. Especially that of children.

I can’t help but feel that deep down, as much as they want to believe, they know it is not true.
Most likely, they are not believers & even if they were, they would still have to know the truth about hell, which was corrupted along the ages. So, right now, they probably don't believe their children are in Heaven.
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: carstensenscott on December 19, 2012, 03:19:42 PM
Power. Thanks Quesi. Facing the reality of the situations for believers is to real, they cannot accept reality in those situations because the security blanket of religion will short circuit and result in denial of faith..the conundrum conuns on.
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: none on December 19, 2012, 03:24:18 PM
You know, right now, my life is all about the life of a 6 year old.   Ballet classes.  Chess classes.  Piano recitals.  Playdates and birthday parties and Mo Willems books.  Assurances that she doesn’t need to decide this week whether she is going to be an artist or an entomologist or a veterinarian when she grows up.  There is time to decide.  I love listening to her tell me about her interpretation of the world, and the events that she observes.  I love her questions.  It is such a wonderful age, full of such joy and discovery, and although they share so many common characteristics, 6 year olds have such clearly defined personalities. 

I keep watching the videos of interviews with the parents of the children, all ages 6 and 7,  who were killed in the shooting.  The little artist who loved the sea, the little girl whose father said she was the family’s little CEO, the mischievous little boy, the little boy who wanted to know how old he had to be to sing on stage, the little girl who loved horses, whose parents promised her a pony for her 10th birthday.  I don’t know why I do it, but I keep watching these videos.  And I weep. 

I weep because these innocent lives were lost, and these children will never reach their dreams.  They will never fulfill their potentials.   They are gone. 
...
yep, they are dead.
they reached their potential.
there is nothing logical or reasonable which is comforting to say they didn't.
you got priorities.
you know what they are.
if you need any help ask, rejection is stressful and take care of that which you have.
I don't feel it is necessary to address anything else in the OP.
if I must acknowledge _________ .
none.
I didn't prevent it.
I could have given the proper allocation of resources, but I didn't have awareness of those resources until now.
now that I am aware of those resources I need to use them to prevent another murder.
yes, I shed tears I grieve and that grief is motivating.
some people will kill themselves over this issue others will not.
I don't want to lose those people, they are vitally important and they have a message to share and that message should be "murder is wrong and suicide is wrong" the method they choose to express that message and enforce it doesn't need to be politicized in to a different message.
it is plain and simple "murder is wrong and suicide is wrong." if they can't do it I will do it because I hate death and death is not mandatory.
if this is offensive then I apologize but this is they way I see it.
http://www.futurity.org/health-medicine/inflammation-chemical-linked-to-suicide/
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: Quesi on December 19, 2012, 03:44:00 PM
Thank you everyone for responding.  This piece just poured out of me this morning.

Shin, thank you for responding.  I addressed a number of questions to you, and I'm still not sure I understand your answer. 

Shouldn’t they be celebrating?

So why aren’t you celebrating, Shin?
Death is no cause for celebration. Under any circumstance. Especially that of children.


I agree that death is no cause for celebration because I believe death is the end of life.  You believe that death (for some) is the beginning of a beautiful eternity.  Don't you?

And if I remember correctly, you believe that the world is going to end in the next 7 years or so.  These kids were, according to your predictions, never going reach adulthood anyway.  They were never going to become parents themselves.  Have jobs. 

But they might have had the opportunity to sin in those 7 years. 

And if they had sinned, and if they had passed your god's mysterious cut off date for childhood salvation, they would have spent eternity in hell or dead or whatever it is that you believe. 

But these kids didn't have a chance to sin.  They went straight to heaven.  If you believe all of these things that you say that you believe, why would this not be a wonderful thing? 
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 19, 2012, 03:49:00 PM
I agree that death is no cause for celebration because I believe death is the end of life.  You believe that death (for some) is the beginning of a beautiful eternity.  Don't you?
Yes.

And if I remember correctly, you believe that the world is going to end in the next 7 years or so.  These kids were, according to your predictions, never going reach adulthood anyway.  They were never going to become parents themselves.  Have jobs. 
Correct.

But they might have had the opportunity to sin in those 7 years. 
Yes.

But these kids didn't have a chance to sin.  They went straight to heaven.  If you believe all of these things that you say that you believe, why would this not be a wonderful thing?
Which brings us always to the same/deepest question(hardest to answer) : "Is everything predetermined or not?"
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: Quesi on December 19, 2012, 04:17:32 PM
None?  Are you ok?  I'm not sure I understood your first response to my post, but when you copied it and re-posted it and then put the link at the bottom, I became even more confused.

Are you trying to demonstrate that people commit suicide due to side effects of taking this inflammation drug?    Are you reaching out for support?  What's up?
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: none on December 19, 2012, 04:28:27 PM
None?  Are you ok?  I'm not sure I understood your first response to my post, but when you copied it and re-posted it and then put the link at the bottom, I became even more confused.

Are you trying to demonstrate that people commit suicide due to side effects of taking this inflammation drug?    Are you reaching out for support?  What's up?
I am doing ok.
If I can just keep myself alive.
It is a constant engagement that hasn't ceased since I existed and I don't plan on changing that.
the word is chemical not drug, the chemical was not administered as a drug.
thank you for showing some interest... I discussed more than myself in that post.
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: jaimehlers on December 19, 2012, 04:30:28 PM
I understand what you were trying to get across here, Quesi, but I have to disagree with you on one point.  I don't think it's inconsistent for Christians to feel sorrow because of death, or try to prevent an untimely one.  It's my understanding that Christians in general (or at least some sects, I don't know how widespread it is) see life as the one chance a person has to establish a relationship with God, and so if someone dies, then they're being robbed of part of that opportunity.  It's the same reason some Christian sects believe in shriving someone's sins before they die, while others believe that if one "comes to Jesus" even in the last moment of their life, that they are considered to be saved.  Because they had the chance to establish that relationship.

My point is that you shouldn't try to act as if Christians are being inconsistent because they try to keep someone from dying, or because they feel pain and sorrow because of things like that school shooting.  It won't help to try to confront Christians with what you see as an inconsistency, because to them, it's consistent with what they actually believe.  You have to address what they actually believe, or else you might as well not have spoken at all.
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: Quesi on December 19, 2012, 04:36:25 PM
Thank you jaimehlers.  That is an interesting perspective.  I still don't understand.  Which is why I tried to identify with the emotions by creating the "my daughter is going to colonize Mars and I'll never see her again" scenario, because I thought it would get me closer to understanding.  I'd never see her again.  I'd miss her, I'd miss the life that I had imagined us having together, with milestones and all, and I'd be a little sad.  But mostly proud and happy. 

Lori, I know you have a very different set of beliefs.  I'd be interested if you would be willing to share. 
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: none on December 19, 2012, 04:46:57 PM
I understand what you were trying to get across here, Quesi, but I have to disagree with you on one point.  I don't think it's inconsistent for Christians to feel sorrow because of death, or try to prevent an untimely one.  It's my understanding that Christians in general (or at least some sects, I don't know how widespread it is) see life as the one chance a person has to establish a relationship with God, and so if someone dies, then they're being robbed of part of that opportunity.  It's the same reason some Christian sects believe in shriving someone's sins before they die, while others believe that if one "comes to Jesus" even in the last moment of their life, that they are considered to be saved.  Because they had the chance to establish that relationship.

My point is that you shouldn't try to act as if Christians are being inconsistent because they try to keep someone from dying, or because they feel pain and sorrow because of things like that school shooting.  It won't help to try to confront Christians with what you see as an inconsistency, because to them, it's consistent with what they actually believe.  You have to address what they actually believe, or else you might as well not have spoken at all.
wtf does untimely death have to do with anything?
talking shit about what christians do because they told you some shit about them, fuck.
Christians are not interested in longevity.
If they were they would quit saying people have to die.
they rush in at bed side all to fucking quick when you are going to die and talk a bunch of shit always about how sad death is....but hey you get the bonus round Jesus!
Longevity is incompatible with death.
unless you eat that which is dead and not all dead things should be eaten ( but that is just an opinion maybe all dead things can be consumed I don't know but it doesn't matter because I like to share ).
Christians... yeah great people.
I was one deluded asswipe of a person before I became anti-theism, but now I feel much more comfortable about myself and death is not mandatory unless you want to die.
 ;D
what do Christians believe? I didn't quite understand what you wrote in your post something about untimely death being prevented not untimely death not mandatory.
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: none on December 19, 2012, 04:53:00 PM
Thank you jaimehlers.  That is an interesting perspective.  I still don't understand.  Which is why I tried to identify with the emotions by creating the "my daughter is going to colonize Mars and I'll never see her again" scenario, because I thought it would get me closer to understanding.  I'd never see her again.  I'd miss her, I'd miss the life that I had imagined us having together, with milestones and all, and I'd be a little sad.  But mostly proud and happy. 

Lori, I know you have a very different set of beliefs.  I'd be interested if you would be willing to share.
maybe there is a good reason to not colonize mars...
um, we don't need to.
sure we can visit but who wants to colonize anything? aren't we done colonizing as a species?
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: jaimehlers on December 19, 2012, 04:57:32 PM
I only just figured it out myself, Quesi.  A better way to look at it is as if someone you love was going to be stuck in metaphysical carbonite - they could still move around and do things in Heaven (or in Hell), but they would stay the same as they were from that moment on.  They'd never be able to grow to be more than they were at that moment, never be able to learn anything more than they knew at that moment.

I'd actually feel pretty sorry for them.  Being robbed of the opportunity to do anything new, even if they get to live forever, is rather sad to contemplate.
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: Quesi on December 19, 2012, 05:12:00 PM
I only just figured it out myself, Quesi.  A better way to look at it is as if someone you love was going to be stuck in metaphysical carbonite - they could still move around and do things in Heaven (or in Hell), but they would stay the same as they were from that moment on.  They'd never be able to grow to be more than they were at that moment, never be able to learn anything more than they knew at that moment.

I'd actually feel pretty sorry for them.  Being robbed of the opportunity to do anything new, even if they get to live forever, is rather sad to contemplate.

Ewww.  Sort of like that Ann Rice novel (that was made into a movie with Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise) in which the little girl is made into a vampire, and remains a little girl for hundreds of years. 

I guess the bottom line is that there are as many images of the afterlife as there are theists.    I've actually asked some believers if when children die, they are children in the afterlife.  Some say yes, they get to keep their innocence and enthusiasm.  Some think that old people become young again in the afterlife.  Still others think that the "soul" is so complex, that it is greater than anything contained in the mind, or in life experience, and that this soul arrives in heaven either knowing everything, or prime to learn.

But again,, if you believe that the afterlife lasts for ALL OF ETERNITY, then this little life here is such an insignificant little blink of an eye... why would a few dozen decades, one way or the other, really matter?
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: none on December 19, 2012, 05:26:01 PM
I only just figured it out myself, Quesi.  A better way to look at it is as if someone you love was going to be stuck in metaphysical carbonite - they could still move around and do things in Heaven (or in Hell), but they would stay the same as they were from that moment on.  They'd never be able to grow to be more than they were at that moment, never be able to learn anything more than they knew at that moment.

I'd actually feel pretty sorry for them.  Being robbed of the opportunity to do anything new, even if they get to live forever, is rather sad to contemplate.
fortunately we don't have to experience that do we?'
Also, I am glad you figured it out.
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: jetson on December 19, 2012, 05:27:21 PM
I suspect that many people don't really think about it all that much.  As long as there is an after-life, what it actually is, becomes something to worry about later.  Eternity is impossible for us to fathom, so I think we write it off as inconsequential, or not that critical. 

Imagine having endless amounts of cash, I mean what would be the benef...wait, strike that last attempt at an analogy!

ha ha
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: Debir on December 19, 2012, 05:29:03 PM
I have been reading through the comments while at work - so I hope that I haven't missed anything about what I am going to mention. Also, I haven't read through the whole site so it could be addressed elsewhere.

Why do some assume that children go to heaven? I have never read anything about this in a bible. Is there some verse to clear this up?
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: jetson on December 19, 2012, 05:34:16 PM
I have been reading through the comments while at work - so I hope that I haven't missed anything about what I am going to mention. Also, I haven't read through the whole site so it could be addressed elsewhere.

Why do some assume that children go to heaven? I have never read anything about this in a bible. Is there some verse to clear this up?

Welcome!  I'm sure there is a verse to clear up pretty much anything in the Bible!  Let me dig a bit!

Here you go:  http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/babies_who_die.html (http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/babies_who_die.html)
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: Quesi on December 19, 2012, 05:42:08 PM
I have been reading through the comments while at work - so I hope that I haven't missed anything about what I am going to mention. Also, I haven't read through the whole site so it could be addressed elsewhere.

Why do some assume that children go to heaven? I have never read anything about this in a bible. Is there some verse to clear this up?

Welcome Debir. 

Shin, who is a Christian, asserted this belief earlier in another thread.  Certainly, Christians have a wide range of beliefs, and I'm sure not all Christians believe that all children go to heaven.  The Westboro folks, for example, seem delighted that their god has shown judgment on these kids. 
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: jaimehlers on December 19, 2012, 05:42:19 PM
But again,, if you believe that the afterlife lasts for ALL OF ETERNITY, then this little life here is such an insignificant little blink of an eye... why would a few dozen decades, one way or the other, really matter?
Now that is a much better question to ask in my opinion.
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: Debir on December 19, 2012, 05:57:17 PM
I checked the page out ( http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/babies_who_die.html) - Thanks Jetson... I'm not sure what I think. I don't think they are going to hell. Then again I don't know if I believe in hell at all.

I thought of an example of a 'maybe' for kids going somewhere like heaven(or at least not going to hell). King David and the child he had with Bathsheba- He said I will go to him but he wont return to me... that's quoted from my memory and I havent read the bible in a long time. I should have looked it up, but I'm certain that's somewhat close. I doubt David intended to go to hell and he thought he would join the child somewhere. He could have just meant that he will join the child in the dirt though.

You would think the bible would be clear on these things, but its not.
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: none on December 19, 2012, 06:07:45 PM
I have been reading through the comments while at work - so I hope that I haven't missed anything about what I am going to mention. Also, I haven't read through the whole site so it could be addressed elsewhere.

Why do some assume that children go to heaven? I have never read anything about this in a bible. Is there some verse to clear this up?

Welcome Debir. 

Shin, who is a Christian, asserted this belief earlier in another thread.  Certainly, Christians have a wide range of beliefs, and I'm sure not all Christians believe that all children go to heaven.  The Westboro folks, for example, seem delighted that their god has shown judgment on these kids.
how do you know SHIN is a Christian?
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: none on December 19, 2012, 06:10:35 PM
I checked the page out ( http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/babies_who_die.html) - Thanks Jetson... I'm not sure what I think. I don't think they are going to hell. Then again I don't know if I believe in hell at all.

I thought of an example of a 'maybe' for kids going somewhere like heaven(or at least not going to hell). King David and the child he had with Bathsheba- He said I will go to him but he wont return to me... that's quoted from my memory and I havent read the bible in a long time. I should have looked it up, but I'm certain that's somewhat close. I doubt David intended to go to hell and he thought he would join the child somewhere. He could have just meant that he will join the child in the dirt though.

You would think the bible would be clear on these things, but its not.
Darth Vader made it that way.
(http://www.howtogeek.com/geekers/up/sshot4f4f27a3a2103.jpg)
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 19, 2012, 06:11:29 PM
how do you know SHIN is a Christian?
Good one(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u677/SHINKAIRI3/emoticon-0140-rofl_zpsbbff89c0.gif)(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u677/SHINKAIRI3/scoregood_zps9a68a280.gif)
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: ParkingPlaces on December 19, 2012, 06:13:19 PM
You would think the bible would be clear on these things, but its not.

Welcome Debir.

The bible isn't clear because it has nothing to work with. Except made up stuff. Which is inherently flakey. Especially when you don't have a good editor.

Pick a random group of 1,000 self-identified christians and ask them ten random questions about the bible. I can guarantee that no two of those thousand would give you the same ten answers. That is what makes the religion so believable. Adherents get to customize the crap out of it.

On the bright side, some of them will give you one free bath.

P.S. Thanks for Darth, none. That was great.
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: none on December 19, 2012, 06:20:27 PM
how do you know SHIN is a Christian?
Good one(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u677/SHINKAIRI3/emoticon-0140-rofl_zpsbbff89c0.gif)(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u677/SHINKAIRI3/scoregood_zps9a68a280.gif)
no problem soulless human being
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: SHIN KAIRI on December 19, 2012, 06:25:20 PM
You would think the bible would be clear on these things, but its not.
The bible isn't clear because it has nothing to work with. Especially when you don't have a good editor.
Haha good one(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u677/SHINKAIRI3/emoticon-0140-rofl_zpsbbff89c0.gif)
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: none on December 19, 2012, 06:31:27 PM
You would think the bible would be clear on these things, but its not.
The bible isn't clear because it has nothing to work with. Especially when you don't have a good editor.
Haha good one(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u677/SHINKAIRI3/emoticon-0140-rofl_zpsbbff89c0.gif)
I know the Bible is not accurate,  ;D digital media is much more accurate and it doesn't degrade nearly as fast....
"the hebrew version of the Torah aka the book of lies for death cult enthusiasts"
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,24166.0.html
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: mhaberling on December 19, 2012, 08:36:54 PM
Darth Vader made it that way.

^This guy....

<< by the way, what is a Darwin???(i didn't read all of the rules)
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: jetson on December 19, 2012, 08:42:45 PM
Darth Vader made it that way.

^This guy....

<< by the way, what is a Darwin???(i didn't read all of the rules)

Click on the "Darwins" link to see who gave you positive or negative Karma.
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: kardula on December 19, 2012, 08:54:22 PM
Regardless of our belief in god. We weep for those lost, not because we know they're in a better place, but because they are no longer here with us. Parents cry when their kids go off to get an education and hopefully make something better of themselves, this doesn't mean that the parents believe it's a bad thing to send their kids off. The parents will miss their kids and this is why we weep. Just because we believe they're in a better place doesn't mean we will not miss them. I don't think that all atheists weep because the children are gone to a "worse" place. They weep because they're gone. Just like we do. Regardless of where they are now, they're gone from us here.
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: none on December 20, 2012, 01:06:41 AM
Darth Vader made it that way.

^This guy....

<< by the way, what is a Darwin???(i didn't read all of the rules)
a Darwin is a rule.
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: Quesi on December 20, 2012, 07:54:46 AM
Regardless of our belief in god. We weep for those lost, not because we know they're in a better place, but because they are no longer here with us. Parents cry when their kids go off to get an education and hopefully make something better of themselves, this doesn't mean that the parents believe it's a bad thing to send their kids off. The parents will miss their kids and this is why we weep. Just because we believe they're in a better place doesn't mean we will not miss them. I don't think that all atheists weep because the children are gone to a "worse" place. They weep because they're gone. Just like we do. Regardless of where they are now, they're gone from us here.

You know, Kardula, I really tried to take that into account when I went through the process of trying to understand the Christian perspective. 

That is why I tried to imagine a scenario in which my beloved daughter was "gone" but was in what she considered a "better place."  I imagined her as a young woman whose dream was to be selected to colonize Mars.  Gone forever from my life, but happy, fulfilled, accomplished.  I would miss her.  Sure I would cry when the rocket took off, and perhaps at holidays when she was not with me, and as I wrote, I would resent being cheated out of the milestones in her life that I had anticipated. 

But mostly, I would be happy.  Proud.  I believe that this life is our only life, and there is nothing I want more for my daughter than for her to be happy, accomplished, for her to contribute to the future of the human race, for her to be a good person.  And if a one way trip to Mars was the means by which she would be happy, accomplished, contributing and good, I would be thrilled and joyous and happy and proud.  Sad for me.  Happy for her. 

Now if her rocketship exploded a year after take off, and everyone perished, and she never made it to Mars and she never accomplished her dreams, I would be devastated beyond conception.

In both cases, she would be absent from my life.  But as someone who loves her more than anything in the world, her absence from my life would only be a small component of my emotions. 

But if I were a Christian, and my hopes were not for her accomplishments and joy in this life, but for her entrance into eternal bliss, wouldn't both scenarios (one in which she was living on Mars, and one in which she was dead), wouldn't those two scenarios be both the same?  Wouldn't my pain be related only to me, and to the fact that I "miss her"  rather than the fact that I love her, and want what is best for her?

I am really thinking about this in an attempt to understand. 
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: none on December 20, 2012, 10:47:17 AM
Regardless of our belief in god. We weep for those lost, not because we know they're in a better place, but because they are no longer here with us. Parents cry when their kids go off to get an education and hopefully make something better of themselves, this doesn't mean that the parents believe it's a bad thing to send their kids off. The parents will miss their kids and this is why we weep. Just because we believe they're in a better place doesn't mean we will not miss them. I don't think that all atheists weep because the children are gone to a "worse" place. They weep because they're gone. Just like we do. Regardless of where they are now, they're gone from us here.

You know, Kardula, I really tried to take that into account when I went through the process of trying to understand the Christian perspective. 

That is why I tried to imagine a scenario in which my beloved daughter was "gone" but was in what she considered a "better place."  I imagined her as a young woman whose dream was to be selected to colonize Mars.  Gone forever from my life, but happy, fulfilled, accomplished.  I would miss her.  Sure I would cry when the rocket took off, and perhaps at holidays when she was not with me, and as I wrote, I would resent being cheated out of the milestones in her life that I had anticipated. 

But mostly, I would be happy.  Proud.  I believe that this life is our only life, and there is nothing I want more for my daughter than for her to be happy, accomplished, for her to contribute to the future of the human race, for her to be a good person.  And if a one way trip to Mars was the means by which she would be happy, accomplished, contributing and good, I would be thrilled and joyous and happy and proud.  Sad for me.  Happy for her. 

Now if her rocketship exploded a year after take off, and everyone perished, and she never made it to Mars and she never accomplished her dreams, I would be devastated beyond conception.

In both cases, she would be absent from my life.  But as someone who loves her more than anything in the world, her absence from my life would only be a small component of my emotions. 

But if I were a Christian, and my hopes were not for her accomplishments and joy in this life, but for her entrance into eternal bliss, wouldn't both scenarios (one in which she was living on Mars, and one in which she was dead), wouldn't those two scenarios be both the same?  Wouldn't my pain be related only to me, and to the fact that I "miss her"  rather than the fact that I love her, and want what is best for her?

I am really thinking about this in an attempt to understand. 
What is the justification for empathizing about Christianity?

Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: kardula on December 20, 2012, 09:11:09 PM
You know, Kardula, I really tried to take that into account when I went through the process of trying to understand the Christian perspective. 

That is why I tried to imagine a scenario in which my beloved daughter was "gone" but was in what she considered a "better place."  I imagined her as a young woman whose dream was to be selected to colonize Mars.  Gone forever from my life, but happy, fulfilled, accomplished.  I would miss her.  Sure I would cry when the rocket took off, and perhaps at holidays when she was not with me, and as I wrote, I would resent being cheated out of the milestones in her life that I had anticipated. 

But mostly, I would be happy.  Proud.  I believe that this life is our only life, and there is nothing I want more for my daughter than for her to be happy, accomplished, for her to contribute to the future of the human race, for her to be a good person.  And if a one way trip to Mars was the means by which she would be happy, accomplished, contributing and good, I would be thrilled and joyous and happy and proud.  Sad for me.  Happy for her. 

Now if her rocketship exploded a year after take off, and everyone perished, and she never made it to Mars and she never accomplished her dreams, I would be devastated beyond conception.

In both cases, she would be absent from my life.  But as someone who loves her more than anything in the world, her absence from my life would only be a small component of my emotions. 

But if I were a Christian, and my hopes were not for her accomplishments and joy in this life, but for her entrance into eternal bliss, wouldn't both scenarios (one in which she was living on Mars, and one in which she was dead), wouldn't those two scenarios be both the same?  Wouldn't my pain be related only to me, and to the fact that I "miss her"  rather than the fact that I love her, and want what is best for her?

I am really thinking about this in an attempt to understand.

Many Christians who've lost loved one will take solice in that we believe we will see them again eventually. As your light at the end of the tunnel is knowing your daughter is happy on Mars, ours is knowing we will be reunited with our loved ones someday. We will miss them certainly and it will be worse around the holidays, but knowing that we will see them again will give us some comfort.
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: Quesi on December 20, 2012, 09:21:31 PM
Thank you for your response, kardula.

@ None - I try to empathize with everyone.  As a secular humanist, I try to understand the human condition, and understand what motivates us as individuals and as communities.  I try to act in a way that values the lives of other human beings, and understanding those human beings is the first step.   

I try to teach my daughter to use empathy for others as her moral compass, in the same way my father taught me to do the same.  I don't always succeed.  But I try. 
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: 3sigma on December 20, 2012, 09:58:39 PM
How would I feel?  Sure, there would be nights that I might privately cry a little bit out of selfishness, perhaps a little resentful about the fact that I did not get to enjoy the parts of my daughter’s life that I felt entitled to enjoy.

I think this could explain why religious believers aren’t happy. They aren’t so much thinking about the departed, but about themselves. Understandably, they can’t bear the thought of never being able to see or speak to their children again, at least for the rest of their own lives.

I don’t think your analogy of your daughter going to Mars quite works because you could reasonably expect not to lose touch with her completely. It is reasonable to expect that you would have audio and video communication with her and, by the time we have a colony on Mars, there may even be holographic telepresence capabilities. You could probably even feel like you were actually at her wedding.

None of that would be the case if she had died instead. That would leave an altogether different void in your life. So, even if religious believers were deliriously happy that their children were “residing with Jesus” (as I’ve seen on some headstones), it would be tempered by the knowledge that they will not see them again in their lifetime.
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: Add Homonym on December 21, 2012, 01:14:10 AM
You would think the bible would be clear on these things, but its not.

It can't be clear, because it has to establish a dichotomy between either heaven or hell, and leave people in the maximum amount of anxiety, so they then try harder to adhere to their peer group's demands. Islam establishes 7 levels of heaven, so you can kid yourself, that if you are moderately good, you can get into the bottom level. Jesus is supposed to be on level 4 or 5 (I forget).

Christianity just has one generic hell, and one generic heaven... unless you are one of the 144,000 virgin males, spoken of in Revelation. This leaves the possibility that if you are 1% badder than someone who just scrapes into heaven, you will burn for eternity, instead of joy for eternity. Christians are generally in denial that this is the case, and cite Paul who espouses being saved by belief, rather than deeds. But, that never washes, since they can't prove whether that works, either.

Although Christians can stomach adults going to hell, because they were 1% badder than someone else, their badly thought-out paradigm falls on its arse, because children can't possibly have been saved, or have done any good deeds. They then need to pretend that God saves people based on predetermination, and other magical principles, not mentioned except in-passing, by Paul - rendering the whole act of Christ, and living, to be nearly pointless.

It was sooo important for God to sacrifice his one begotten son, at a fairly late date in history, so that modern humans could know about it, and try to force people to associate with the brand name Christ™.

In other words, if you believe in hell, the Christian paradigm falls apart, and if you don't believe in hell, the religion can't compete against other religions that have a larger threat. The compromise is to have a religion that doesn't make sense.

Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: Bagheera on December 21, 2012, 01:33:43 AM
Thank you jaimehlers.  That is an interesting perspective.  I still don't understand.  Which is why I tried to identify with the emotions by creating the "my daughter is going to colonize Mars and I'll never see her again" scenario, because I thought it would get me closer to understanding.  I'd never see her again.  I'd miss her, I'd miss the life that I had imagined us having together, with milestones and all, and I'd be a little sad.  But mostly proud and happy. 

Lori, I know you have a very different set of beliefs.  I'd be interested if you would be willing to share.
maybe there is a good reason to not colonize mars...
um, we don't need to.
sure we can visit but who wants to colonize anything? aren't we done colonizing as a species?
I believe there is evidence the Earth has suffered cataclysmic extinction events in the past, and there is no reason to believe similar events wont reoccur. So we're not done colonizing, whether it be Mars or wherever. If we can, we should, because we literally have all our eggs in one basket.

/end thread hijack
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: anthony_retford on December 21, 2012, 09:10:22 AM
Devastation at a loss predates religions by thousands of years - it is innate in all of us. So that is why we wail and despair when we lose someone. If religions had been present since the dawn of man we would be happy at a loss.
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: Quesi on December 21, 2012, 10:03:37 AM
Devastation at a loss predates religions by thousands of years - it is innate in all of us. So that is why we wail and despair when we lose someone. If religions had been present since the dawn of man we would be happy at a loss.

Very interesting perspective.  There is significant evidence that animals also mourn the dead.   

http://youtu.be/Vx3B1VuGZro
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: Schizoid on December 24, 2012, 10:25:15 PM
I'm sure many have seen the pictures of the murdered children.  For me it is heartbreaking, particularly since the little girl with the bright red hair looks just like my daughter at that age and when I see her I see my little girl, now all grown.

As a father, if my young child was at risk of being murdered and it was completely within my power to stop it, yet I chose not to do so, then I would be considered the lowest form of scum. 

The mythical Christian god on the other hand gets a pass when it comes to saving his children, actual little children from being brutally murdered.  We all know the tired old argument given--that god cannot override a person's free will, and he can't except when all the time he does because so much of prayer involves petitioning god to interfere with a person's free will.  Yet Christians are masters of rationalizing and cooking the books to make it come out heads god wins, tales god wins.  When all else fails they fall back on the weary old line "it's a mystery".

Pathetic, and sad.
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: JeffPT on December 24, 2012, 11:28:12 PM
The mythical Christian god on the other hand gets a pass when it comes to saving his children, actual little children from being brutally murdered.  We all know the tired old argument given--that god cannot override a person's free will, and he can't except when all the time he does because so much of prayer involves petitioning god to interfere with a person's free will.  Yet Christians are masters of rationalizing and cooking the books to make it come out heads god wins, tales god wins.  When all else fails they fall back on the weary old line "it's a mystery".

Pathetic, and sad.
Would it have violated the killer's free will if God just jammed the trigger mechanism? 
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: Dominic on December 25, 2012, 12:34:45 AM

Hi Quesi

Some of the parents may be having doubts about their children being in heaven.  A horrible event can shake someone's faith at least temporarily.  Most theists will sit somewhere on a continuum of belief, seldom having complete certainty.  And even if they do have certainty they only know a tiny part of the nature of heaven and the nature of God and even the nature of this life, so it is always an incomplete picture.

But all of that is not the reason why they are crying.  They are crying because they have lost connection to something (albeit temporarily) very dear to them.

There are some enlightened beings who have seen past the temporary nature of this physical life and do not grieve at the death of loved ones.  But that level of understanding is very rare.

Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: kitten on December 25, 2012, 03:19:28 AM
even if there is something better waiting for us after we die, parents are still allowed to miss their children, and to be upset over that loss, no matter where the child went, be it mars or "heaven". i'm sad when my kids want to go on vacation with their grandparents, i'm not jumping for joy, i'm sad they're not with me. that doesn't make sense?

personally i don't understand the need for crazies to take others with them before they go, aside from a sick form of population control, if they don't want to be here, don't, but no need to involve others who aren't asking to be brought along.
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: Schizoid on December 25, 2012, 10:33:22 AM
The mythical Christian god on the other hand gets a pass when it comes to saving his children, actual little children from being brutally murdered.  We all know the tired old argument given--that god cannot override a person's free will, and he can't except when all the time he does because so much of prayer involves petitioning god to interfere with a person's free will.  Yet Christians are masters of rationalizing and cooking the books to make it come out heads god wins, tales god wins.  When all else fails they fall back on the weary old line "it's a mystery".

Pathetic, and sad.
Would it have violated the killer's free will if God just jammed the trigger mechanism?

Good point.  I guess the excuss that believers will fall back on is, "it's a mystery".

The kicker on all of this is that god knew this tragedy was going to happen before it happened and still the omniscient, omnipotent supreme being chose to do nothing even if it was jamming a trigger mechanism.
Title: Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
Post by: Quest_4_Absolute_Verity on December 25, 2012, 09:58:52 PM
As a former Christian I'm amazed at how far Christianity is stretched from Scripture. When I first read this my first thought was why do you think they went to heaven? I know the age of accountability isn't called out in Scripture and its like a whoops after thought. Then you have the apostle Peter's first sermon: "Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day . . . For David did not ascend to heaven . . ." (Acts 2:29, 34)

God called this same King David "a man after My own heart," one who would "do all My will" (Acts 13:22). Surely, if anyone had a right to heaven, wouldn't it be a person such as David? Yet Peter tells us God did not carry David off to heaven. The only one who had ascended to heaven, said Peter, was Jesus Christ (Acts 2:29-35).

Also the Gospel of John says: "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man [Jesus Christ]" (John 3:13)

Jesus never promised Christians heaven after they died as far as I know. Yes, I know you can create some contradictions to this with other Scripture. The entire Bible is a contradiction after all and that is how we ended up with 30,000 denominations of Christianity. So at best if you buy into heaven these kids wait patiently in the ground till the second coming? Which by the way a very interesting denomination out of that 30,000 says we missed it and it already happened. Supported by Scripture of coarse!